From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Nov 1 08:48:02 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iA1Gltag029717; Mon, 1 Nov 2004 08:47:55 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iA1GlrxD029700; Mon, 1 Nov 2004 08:47:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 08:47:53 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <410-220041111154648440@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Electromagnetic Flywheels or Trick or Treat Particle Zoo? Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 09:46:48 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940b5ffb771f0fbbcdc5dba067d8b527ec9350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.162.224 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56309 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Jones Beene wrote: > > In current string theory models, > hadrons are composed of basic units called quarks > (bound by “glue-like” bosons, called what else? > Gluons). The gluons mediate the force that binds the > quarks together, and one question which should be > asked now is this: “what is the corresponding “glue” > particle for the other class of fermions, the leptons? > What is the "Gluon" that "holds" two wires together when they are carrying a current of like charge in the same direction, or attract one another if carrying opposite charge flowing in opposite directions? The String Theory "zero width" electromagnetic wave "current loops" with relativistically invariant charge (+/- q =1.6e-19 coulombs) circling side-by-side at near c set up a magnetic field with intensity q*c = 4.8e-11 ampere-meters each. For an electron-positron-electron "group" with a loop circumference of 2(pi)* 2.82 e-15 meters at 4.9e-11 ampere meters the current ( I ) = 4.8e-11/1.765e-14 = 2.72e3 amperes in each loop. Same game for the three quarks in the proton (with the odd-man-out external electron maintaining universal charge balance) but, the current ( I ) for each loop jumps up to 1.66e6 amperes. If that doesn't create a "Strong Force" between loops, what does? With the positron (+q) current loop circling in the opposite direction the group is effectively "glued" together like rotating flywheels. Since angular momentum or "spin" mvr = hbar is constant, energy and momentum is conserved as mass m and radius r vary oppositely. IOW, the "flywheels" can exchange energy/mass & radius through magnetic coupling, such as in the case of an electron & antineutrino ( or in Electron Capture) being "shrunk" to the size required to convert a proton into a neutron. I think the "establishment" is creating more particles than nature has to offer. Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

Jones Beene wrote:
>
>  In current string theory models,
> hadrons are composed of basic units called quarks
> (bound by “glue-like” bosons, called what else?
> Gluons). The gluons mediate the force that binds the
> quarks together, and one question which should be
> asked now is this: “what is the corresponding “glue”
> particle for the other class of fermions, the leptons?
>
What is the "Gluon" that "holds" two wires together when they are carrying
a current of like charge in the same direction, or attract one another if carrying
opposite charge flowing in opposite directions?
 
The String Theory "zero width" electromagnetic wave "current loops" with relativistically
invariant charge (+/- q =1.6e-19 coulombs) circling side-by-side at near c  set up a magnetic field
with intensity q*c = 4.8e-11 ampere-meters each.
 
For an electron-positron-electron "group" with a loop circumference of 2(pi)* 2.82 e-15 meters
at 4.9e-11 ampere meters the current ( I )  = 4.8e-11/1.765e-14 = 2.72e3 amperes in each loop.
 
Same game for the three quarks in the proton (with the odd-man-out external electron maintaining
universal charge balance) but, the current ( I ) for each loop jumps up to 1.66e6 amperes.
If that doesn't create a "Strong Force" between loops, what does?
 
With the positron (+q) current loop circling in the opposite direction the group is effectively "glued"
together like rotating flywheels. Since angular momentum or "spin" mvr = hbar is constant, energy
and momentum is conserved as mass m  and radius r vary oppositely.
 
IOW, the "flywheels" can exchange energy/mass & radius through magnetic coupling, such as in the case
of an electron & antineutrino ( or in Electron Capture) being "shrunk"  to the size required to convert a proton
into a neutron.
 
I think the "establishment" is creating more particles than nature has to offer.
 
Frederick
 
 
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Nov 1 12:34:49 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iA1KYhag007626; Mon, 1 Nov 2004 12:34:43 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iA1KXKIJ007363; Mon, 1 Nov 2004 12:33:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 12:33:20 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <410-220041111193214890@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Electromagnetic Flywheels or Trick or Treat Particle Zoo? Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 13:32:14 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940b048b3c5887dcb9d0416bba9814c4450350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.162.229 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56310 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII I wrote earlier: > > For an electron-positron-electron "group" with a loop circumference of 2(pi)* 2.82 e-15 meters > at 4.9e-11 ampere meters the current ( I ) = 4.8e-11/1.765e-14 = 2.72e3 amperes in each loop. > Going by this approach, the "Strong Force" between the disks or loops at a separation distance (d) is: 1.0e-7 * 4.8e-11^2/d^2 newtons, keeping in mind that the magnetic force is length dependent the force between the electron-positron-electron if their separation d is comparable to their radius r, 2.304e-28/(2.82e-15)^2 = 28.97 newtons or about 65 pounds. By the same token the strong force between the three quarks in a proton with separation distance d comparable to a disk or loop radius of 2.35e-18 meters: 2.304e-28/(2.35e-18)^2 = 4.17e7 newtons or almost 10 million pounds. A "glue" force to reckon with when you attempt to break it with high energy particles. The High Energy Physics "Tailors" have woven quite a wardrobe for the Emperor. Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

I wrote earlier:
 
>
> For an electron-positron-electron "group" with a loop circumference of 2(pi)* 2.82 e-15 meters
> at 4.9e-11 ampere meters the current ( I )  = 4.8e-11/1.765e-14 = 2.72e3 amperes in each loop.
>
Going by this approach, the "Strong Force" between the disks or loops at a separation distance (d) is:
 
1.0e-7 * 4.8e-11^2/d^2 newtons, keeping in mind that the magnetic force is length dependent the
force between the electron-positron-electron if their separation d is comparable to their radius r,
 
2.304e-28/(2.82e-15)^2 = 28.97 newtons  or about 65 pounds.
 
By the same token the strong force between the three quarks in a proton with separation
distance d comparable to a disk or loop radius of 2.35e-18 meters:
 
2.304e-28/(2.35e-18)^2 = 4.17e7 newtons or almost 10 million pounds. A "glue" force to reckon with when you
attempt to break it with high energy particles.
 
The High Energy Physics "Tailors" have woven quite a wardrobe for the Emperor. 
 
Frederick
 
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Nov 1 13:05:53 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iA1L5mag021990; Mon, 1 Nov 2004 13:05:49 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iA1L4RuX021680; Mon, 1 Nov 2004 13:04:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 13:04:27 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4186A3CF.4010207@bigfoot.com> Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2004 15:59:59 -0500 From: jim thumber User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.3) Gecko/20041007 Debian/1.7.3-5 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: ZPE Toy? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56311 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Any news on the zpe toy that Mark Goldes's company was expecting to have in production? I thought he said it would be out in October. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Nov 1 17:34:31 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iA21YR7m014512; Mon, 1 Nov 2004 17:34:27 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iA21YGWn014460; Mon, 1 Nov 2004 17:34:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 17:34:16 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Originating-IP: [4.243.248.162] X-Originating-Email: [mgoldes@msn.com] X-Sender: mgoldes@msn.com From: "Mark Goldes" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: ZPE Toy? Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2004 17:33:34 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 Nov 2004 01:34:10.0885 (UTC) FILETIME=[0D8A1F50:01C4C07C] Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56312 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: My guess was and remains that it will be out before the end of 2005. Mark >From: jim thumber >Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >Subject: ZPE Toy? >Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2004 15:59:59 -0500 > >Any news on the zpe toy that Mark Goldes's company was expecting to have in >production? I thought he said it would be out in October. > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Nov 1 21:23:13 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iA25N7vq009570; Mon, 1 Nov 2004 21:23:07 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iA25Muug009497; Mon, 1 Nov 2004 21:22:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 21:22:56 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: FZNIDARSIC@aol.com Message-ID: <1dc.2ef6bbce.2eb873a7@aol.com> Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 00:22:47 EST Subject: My paper listed by DOE a plesant suprise To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_1dc.2ef6bbce.2eb873a7_boundary" X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6808 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56313 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --part1_1dc.2ef6bbce.2eb873a7_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Energy Citations Database (ECD) Document=A0#787504 - Motion Constants=20 Frank Z --part1_1dc.2ef6bbce.2eb873a7_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Energy Citations Database=20= (ECD) Document=A0#787504 - Motion Constants

Frank Z --part1_1dc.2ef6bbce.2eb873a7_boundary-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Nov 2 05:43:30 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iA2DhO7h017787; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 05:43:24 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iA2DhCOg017667; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 05:43:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 05:43:12 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <41878F0A.4050907@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 08:43:38 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Sustainable Development (was: My paper listed by DOE a plesant suprise) References: <1dc.2ef6bbce.2eb873a7@aol.com> In-Reply-To: <1dc.2ef6bbce.2eb873a7@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <_NzCXC.A.8TE.w74hBB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56314 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: FZNIDARSIC@aol.com wrote: > Energy Citations Database (ECD) Document #787504 - Motion Constants > > > Frank Z You were wise to use the phrase "sustainable development". I work for an engineering consulting firm which is very frugal with training money; but, freely approves paid seminars with the phrase in the topic. However, I have found that most of these seminars are preaching myth since it's virtually impossible to sell something to a client that is not cost effective. We are presently advocating two proposals which could change this. One is the concept of a "resource depletion factor". A RDF could be applied to a project, say a photovoltaic power system, based on the amount of fossil fuel it would displace. These RDF would result in credits to the project by the funding source. Another concept is "social altruism". A SA factor would be similar to grants for artwork in public projects. Of course, the success of these cost incentives depends on the funding source. Publicly funded projects could apply these factors directly while private projects would require a taxation or other incentive. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Nov 2 07:50:43 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iA2FoUvq001006; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 07:50:34 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iA2FoRph000980; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 07:50:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 07:50:27 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <410-220041122144918240@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Sustainable Development Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 08:49:18 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94085b127b6322a93a2fe67eede11e9ca97350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.162.53 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56315 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Terry Blanton wrote: > > .Another concept is "social altruism". A SA factor would be similar to > grants for artwork in public projects. Of course, the success of these > cost incentives depends on the funding source. Publicly funded projects > could apply these factors directly while private projects would require > a taxation or other incentive. > http://nmsees.org/Page.asp?CustComKey=76181&CategoryKey=77849 "New Mexico SEES" "New Mexico SEES seeks to create exemplary public participation; high standards for state enforcement of waste clean up; and a shift at our national labs from nuclear weapons programs towards renewable energy and waste clean up." I don't know whether or not this "new effort" will die on the vine like most others that started 3 decades ago. What is NREL http://www.nrel.gov supposed to be doing these days?? Sharing Expertise and Facilities— NREL Assists DOE and Industry with Biomass Technologies of the Future "Biomass conversion is as old as the first wood fires humans ever made—to cook food or maybe just to stay warm during a long, cold night. And like everything old, it's new again—and moving in some exciting new directions at NREL. Here, scientists and engineers explore ways to convert plants, plant-derived products, and other biological materials to valuable fuels, chemicals, materials, and electric power. And they help industry by providing expert assistance and by sharing state-of-the-art research, development, and testing facilities. In the future, "biorefineries" for producing new biomass-based fuels, chemicals, and other products will help to create a major new domestic industry, and they will provide a wide range of valuable products based on renewable resources. They will also allow us to reduce our dependence on imported oil." Altruistic?? Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

Terry Blanton wrote:
 
>
> .Another concept is "social altruism".  A SA factor would be similar to
> grants for artwork in public projects.  Of course, the success of these
> cost incentives depends on the funding source.  Publicly funded projects
> could apply these factors directly while private projects would require
> a taxation or other incentive.
>
 

"New Mexico SEES"

"New Mexico SEES seeks to create exemplary public participation; high standards for state enforcement of waste clean up; and a shift at our national labs from nuclear weapons programs towards renewable energy and waste clean up."

I don't know whether or not this "new effort" will die on the vine like most others

that started 3 decades ago.

What is NREL http://www.nrel.gov supposed to be doing these days??

Sharing Expertise and Facilities— NREL Assists DOE and Industry with Biomass Technologies of the Future

"Biomass conversion is as old as the first wood fires humans ever made—to cook food or maybe just to stay warm during a long, cold night. And like everything old, it's new again—and moving in some exciting new directions at NREL. Here, scientists and engineers explore ways to convert plants, plant-derived products, and other biological materials to valuable fuels, chemicals, materials, and electric power. And they help industry by providing expert assistance and by sharing state-of-the-art research, development, and testing facilities.

In the future, "biorefineries" for producing new biomass-based fuels, chemicals, and other products will help to create a major new domestic industry, and they will provide a wide range of valuable products based on renewable resources. They will also allow us to reduce our dependence on imported oil."

Altruistic??

Frederick

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Nov 2 09:35:19 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iA2HZCvq007847; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 09:35:12 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iA2HZ9jB007811; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 09:35:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 09:35:09 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20041102173458.79204.qmail@web81104.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 09:34:58 -0800 (PST) From: Jones Beene Subject: lepton "glue" To: fjsparber@earthlink.net, vortex-l In-Reply-To: <410-220041111193214890@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56316 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- Frederick Sparber wrote a nice explanation for the glue-like binding force which could work between bound leptons: > For an electron-positron-electron "group" with a > loop circumference of 2(pi)* 2.82 e-15 meters > at 4.9e-11 ampere meters the current ( I ) = > 4.8e-11/1.765e-14 = 2.72e3 amperes in each loop. > Going by this approach, the "Strong Force" between > the disks or loops at a separation distance (d) is: > 1.0e-7 * 4.8e-11^2/d^2 newtons One thought further on this subject: Assuming that all leptons are *dimensionless point particles* with various levels of mass-energy and differing lifetimes in our 3-space, despite the theory of R. Mills - this characterization (dimensionless point particle) is not inconsistent with the present mathematics and physics which we have observed for the past century among leptons. If this is true (leptons being dimensionless point particles), then one inescapable conclusion which I have never heard mentioned before now is this: leptons are not ever really IN our 3-space at all, at least not in whole. We may see a particular stable figment of "something" we call an electron from another dimension, but even the electron is never IN our 3-space totally. The electron may have characteristics which are stable in our world even though it doesn't exist here in its full reality. This leaves open the distinct possibility that there is only ONE variety of lepton (and one variety of its antiparticle), and the various distinct forms of leptons which we detect in our three space are all figments (fractals) or the same entity which only exists in its wholeness in 1-space. This is not necessarily inconsistent with a modern interpretation of Dirac. What are some further conclusions that follow from this observation (only one variety of lepton, along with its antiparticle)? Well, for starters, all of the other leptons, from tauon to neutrino are not different entities but different views of the same entity, and each should be related to each other through *power laws.* IOW the muon, for instance, should be related to the electron via a power law... Just off the top of one's head it might seem that (2*pi*.511 MeV)^4 will come pretty close to the observed mass of the muon? If so, then then that relationship would indicate that the muon could be located four spatial dimensions removed from the electron (or else two spatial and two time dimensions removed). The later would be the conclusion of viewing "time" as a volume, like "space". Or... yes the muon could be one spatial dimension and three time dimensions removed, which would go along with its short lifetime. And if there is a "missing" lepton, which is a different thing altogether than electronium (which is a bound letpon triad, not a new lepton). Electronium would be hypothetically stable in our three space, except... If there is a fourth massive letpon, previously undescribed, then the heretofore missing fractal in which that lepton "exists" may likely be only one spatial and one time dimension removed. It should be fairly common, but there is a reason why this missing lepton would not have been observed, and this reason relates to the electronium triad. The importance of this speculation, for LENR in particular, being that the missing lepton and/or electronium, would each be much longer lived than a muon, but being the missing lepton being only 6-20 times more massive than the hypothetical electronium, could be responsible for neither particle being very common - IOW it would tend to clear out electronium from our three space and vice-versa ? Just another random thought on a day when this observer hopes that a lot of *clearing-out* will occur in our 3-space, so to speak.... Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Nov 2 10:19:15 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iA2IJ7vq008110; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 10:19:07 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iA2IJ66R008103; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 10:19:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 10:19:06 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: FZNIDARSIC@aol.com Message-ID: <9f.50fc2548.2eb92991@aol.com> Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 13:18:57 EST Subject: Re: lepton "glue" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_9f.50fc2548.2eb92991_boundary" X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6808 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56317 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --part1_9f.50fc2548.2eb92991_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/2/2004 12:36:25 PM Eastern Standard Time, jonesb9@pacbell.net writes: > "Strong Force" between > >the disks or loops at a separation distance (d) is: > >1.0e-7 * 4.8e-11^2/d^2 newtons > The force at the elastic limit of space acting through the diameter of the nucleon equals the mass energy of the Beta particle. see page 16 http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/chaptera.html Frank Z --part1_9f.50fc2548.2eb92991_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 11/2/2004 12:36:= 25 PM Eastern Standard Time, jonesb9@pacbell.net writes:

"Strong Force" between
>the disks or loops at a separation distance (d) is:
>1.0e-7 * 4.8e-11^2/d^2 newtons


The force at the elastic limit of space acting through the diameter of the n= ucleon equals the
mass energy of the Beta particle.

see page 16

http://www.ang= elfire.com/scifi2/zpt/chaptera.html

Frank Z --part1_9f.50fc2548.2eb92991_boundary-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Nov 2 10:21:25 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iA2ILG7h022127; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 10:21:17 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iA2ILExW022098; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 10:21:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 10:21:14 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4187D033.2020807@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 13:21:39 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Sustainable Development Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56318 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frederick Sparber wrote: > In the future, "biorefineries" for producing new biomass-based fuels, > chemicals, and other products will help to create a major new domestic > industry, and they will provide a wide range of valuable products > based on renewable resources. They will also allow us to reduce our > dependence on imported oil." > > Altruistic?? > Probably cost effective. Ya gotta applaud Gov. Pataki's order no. 111: http://www.gorr.state.ny.us/gorr/EO111_fulltext.htm The MTA Corona maintenance facility has both photovoltaic and fuel cell systems for load shaving. Look at the gyrations they went through to justify the PV: http://www.clean-power.com/research/customerPV/CoronaMaintenanceShop.pdf Here's a real negative incentive for large systems: http://www.photon-magazine.com/news/news_02-07_am_nyc_transit.htm From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Nov 2 12:17:04 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iA2KGvvq010434; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 12:16:57 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iA2KGt7L010380; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 12:16:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 12:16:55 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <410-220041122191546780@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Sustainable Development Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 13:15:46 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94045d50699449e6c048cbcb272a185423b350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.162.166 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56319 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: > > > Here's a real negative incentive for large systems: > > http://www.photon-magazine.com/news/news_02-07_am_nyc_transit.htm > > Tell me about it. We had biomass waste systems ( 3 & 5 Megawatt externally-fired gas turbine systems online-tested and market-ready in 1984) and the Murchison brothers (former owners of the Dallas Cowboys) had pipeline quality (scrubbed) methane from feedlots available in 1979 they lost millions. The power and pipeline companies wouldn't let us "wheel" this renewable energy to anywhere. Frederick From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Nov 2 12:53:54 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iA2Krmvq031735; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 12:53:48 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iA2KrlpT031723; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 12:53:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 12:53:47 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20041102205340.70398.qmail@web81110.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 12:53:40 -0800 (PST) From: Jones Beene Subject: The (*e-) Factory To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56320 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Here is a radical thought experiment - actually even more radical than most of the ones which show up routinely on vortex because it involves both a possible crossover into another dimension (at least the narrow interface into another dimension) and also an unproven fundamental particle, yet to be physically proven. So called "cold" fusion is not really very cold in absolute terms, but it does occur on a very narrow interface and set of confinement parameters which can be analogized to approximate the entropy of cold temperature. Actually, you would get quite a burn normally, if you stuck your pinkie into an operating cell, but the D2 in the matrix interface is vibrating kinetically about the same rate as it would if it were held at cryogenic temps, there being "nowhere" else for it to go. You may have assumed that the obvious reason for running a CF cell at a few hundred degrees is that "fusion" being normally an extremely energy intensive reaction would negate and cancel out any attempts at keeping a CF reactor extremely cold - like liquid nitrogen temperatures or below. And what purpose could it possibly serve, anyway ? But all prior conclusions and mind-sets which we now have must entail certain basic assumptions that are not necessarily valid across dimensions - either time or space. If we are dealing with a set of interlocking parameters where the reaction is occurring on a *dimensional* interface, lets say the interface between 2-space and 3-space, or in a situation where the time dimension may be altered by confinement, then there could be a real advantage in trying to perform LENR at cryogenic temperatures and getting that extra degree of confinement boost. Huh? You may be thinking that I am missing the forest for the trees. After all, in the big picture, we are looking for excess energy, right? consequently, if we must expend much more energy than is produced, just to keep a reaction very cold, cryogenic temperatures no less, then how could it possibly ever provide a net 'free energy' benefit? The answer to that logical question, as you may have already guessed from the title of this post, is that we would be anticipating a compound "system" rather than a single reaction. In the total system sense, a really cold version of gas phase electrolysis would be performed at cryogenic temperatures in the first stage, where combined with other parameter variables, it would be hoped that the gain would be in the form of a new "product" or particle; and especially one created ab initio with low initial "kinetic" energy; i.e. low kinetic energy but nevertheless a high net energy potential, once the end product has been removed and sacrificed in a later secondary operation. When one combines the high "effective" confinement pressure of a metal matrix (let's hope that titanium works best for this one) along with low kinetic parameters of cryogenics, the end result could be the same as "forcing" the bulk of excess energy into another dimension (the Dirac sea) and getting back a new particle instead. The particle is the triad (*e-) or perhaps helectronium (**He) doubly enriched in (*e-). In the second stage of this proposed "system" that end product which has been manufactured - once having been removed from the cryogenic reactor, would be further reacted (probably using a gamma source) so as to be converted into a usable free energy output, i.e. either heat or preferably electricity. Sure, this seems like a long way to go to get free energy results, but there is no reason why the net output could not be extremely high, even when the refrigeration costs are included. Actually they are probably de minimis if there is a good output of either expected product. In a secondary subsystem, when one forces the decay of (*e-) into Ps + (e-) then the result is at least one MeV (2 x .511 MeV) from a reactant which is nearly 2000 times less dense than hydrogen. If that (e-) gets accelerated by some of the annihilation energy, then electical output is possible, instead of heat. So compared to using H2 in a fuel cell and getting a few eV per proton, we are getting about a billion times more energy per unit weight. Even if electonium is real, of course, there is no assurance that such a reactor could produce enough (*e-) to make the effort worthwhile. I doubt if we will ever know the answer, considering how specualtive this is... unless, of course, (*e-) is discovered independently, or I win Wednesday's Lotto jackpot... as this piece is not exactly compelling evidence for anything, as I will reluctantly admit, even to normally open-minded vortex experimenters... but it beats watching the anemic early election coverage. Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Nov 2 13:25:22 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iA2LPFvq013304; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 13:25:15 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iA2LPDjf013277; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 13:25:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 13:25:13 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Originating-IP: [64.174.37.158] X-Originating-Email: [mgoldes@msn.com] X-Sender: mgoldes@msn.com From: "Mark Goldes" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: The (*e-) Factory Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 13:24:55 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 Nov 2004 21:25:06.0446 (UTC) FILETIME=[6C5F72E0:01C4C122] Resent-Message-ID: <8S4-cC.A.ZPD.5s_hBB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56321 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones, You might enjoy reading some of the related work of the late Dr. Robert Carroll. His family has provided a website with some of his legacy of alternative physics. I do not have the url handy but google should take care of that issue. He maintained that fusion would be easiest to obtain at temperatures close to zero Kelvin. Carroll, a mathematical physicist, took issue with relativity and was therefore considered by many a "crank". However, he predicted many discoveries that have now come to pass. A graduate student of his, Ronald Bourgoin, following a suggestion by Carroll, produced the world's first ambient temperature superconductor. It received a U.S. Patent in 1982 -- and was independently reproduced at the Unviersity of Alabama with "Star Wars" funding. Bourgoin thought it was Bismuth he had loaded into a molten epoxy. However, as Linus Pauling first mentioned at the end of an hour long invitational visit (the search for a room temperature superconductor was his hobby), it was not the Bismuth, but instead the epoxy. This was confirmed by our Russian scientists and Dr. Carroll immediately agreed. Bourgoin has created in inherently unstable polymer ambient temperature superconductor. Ironically, he still believes it was the Bismuth. Mark Magnetic Power Inc. Room Temperature Superconductors Inc. >From: Jones Beene >Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >Subject: The (*e-) Factory >Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 12:53:40 -0800 (PST) > >Here is a radical thought experiment - actually even >more radical than most of the ones which show up >routinely on vortex because it involves both a >possible crossover into another dimension (at least >the narrow interface into another dimension) and also >an unproven fundamental particle, yet to be physically >proven. > >So called "cold" fusion is not really very cold in >absolute terms, but it does occur on a very narrow >interface and set of confinement parameters which can >be analogized to approximate the entropy of cold >temperature. Actually, you would get quite a burn >normally, if you stuck your pinkie into an operating >cell, but the D2 in the matrix interface is vibrating >kinetically about the same rate as it would if it were >held at cryogenic temps, there being "nowhere" else >for it to go. > >You may have assumed that the obvious reason for >running a CF cell at a few hundred degrees is that >"fusion" being normally an extremely energy intensive >reaction would negate and cancel out any attempts at >keeping a CF reactor extremely cold - like liquid >nitrogen temperatures or below. And what purpose could >it possibly serve, anyway ? > >But all prior conclusions and mind-sets which we now >have must entail certain basic assumptions that are >not necessarily valid across dimensions - either time >or space. If we are dealing with a set of interlocking >parameters where the reaction is occurring on a >*dimensional* interface, lets say the interface >between 2-space and 3-space, or in a situation where >the time dimension may be altered by confinement, then >there could be a real advantage in trying to perform >LENR at cryogenic temperatures and getting that extra >degree of confinement boost. > >Huh? > >You may be thinking that I am missing the forest for >the trees. After all, in the big picture, we are >looking for excess energy, right? consequently, if >we must expend much more energy than is produced, just >to keep a reaction very cold, cryogenic temperatures >no less, then how could it possibly ever provide a net >'free energy' benefit? > >The answer to that logical question, as you may have >already guessed from the title of this post, is that >we would be anticipating a compound "system" rather >than a single reaction. > >In the total system sense, a really cold version of >gas phase electrolysis would be performed at cryogenic >temperatures in the first stage, where combined with >other parameter variables, it would be hoped that the >gain would be in the form of a new "product" or >particle; and especially one created ab initio with >low initial "kinetic" energy; i.e. low kinetic energy >but nevertheless a high net energy potential, once the >end product has been removed and sacrificed in a later >secondary operation. > >When one combines the high "effective" confinement >pressure of a metal matrix (let's hope that titanium >works best for this one) along with low kinetic >parameters of cryogenics, the end result could be the >same as "forcing" the bulk of excess energy into >another dimension (the Dirac sea) and getting back a >new particle instead. The particle is the triad (*e-) >or perhaps helectronium (**He) doubly enriched in >(*e-). > >In the second stage of this proposed "system" that end >product which has been manufactured - once having been >removed from the cryogenic reactor, would be further >reacted (probably using a gamma source) so as to be >converted into a usable free energy output, i.e. >either heat or preferably electricity. > >Sure, this seems like a long way to go to get free >energy results, but there is no reason why the net >output could not be extremely high, even when the >refrigeration costs are included. Actually they are >probably de minimis if there is a good output of >either expected product. > >In a secondary subsystem, when one forces the decay of >(*e-) into Ps + (e-) then the result is at least one >MeV (2 x .511 MeV) from a reactant which is nearly >2000 times less dense than hydrogen. If that (e-) gets >accelerated by some of the annihilation energy, then >electical output is possible, instead of heat. > >So compared to using H2 in a fuel cell and getting a >few eV per proton, we are getting about a billion >times more energy per unit weight. > >Even if electonium is real, of course, there is no >assurance that such a reactor could produce enough >(*e-) to make the effort worthwhile. I doubt if we >will ever know the answer, considering how specualtive >this is... unless, of course, (*e-) is discovered >independently, or I win Wednesday's Lotto jackpot... >as this piece is not exactly compelling evidence for >anything, as I will reluctantly admit, even to >normally open-minded vortex experimenters... but it >beats watching the anemic early election coverage. > >Jones > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Nov 2 14:47:59 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iA2Mle7h008133; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 14:47:44 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iA2MlZZ0008087; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 14:47:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 14:47:35 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20041102224749.0069a658@pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk@pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 22:47:49 +0000 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: RE: Dimensions of mass Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56322 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In the very first post of this thread Keith wrote... ====================================================== Also, you mentioned Jerk and Jounce ( sounds like a b-list rap group ). I've also puzzled over the physical meaning of these terms. It's rather like trying to imagine higher dimensional shapes. One dimension up is about all I can muster, which in this case is Jerk. Standing on a carousel, with the speed increasing and decreasing sinusoidally, ought to do it. Perhaps a better term would be "projectile vomiting" rather than jerk, huh??? (grin). ====================================================== ..which got me wondering, as horselover_fats invariably does. ;-) Let's concentrate on the length terms, velocity, acceleration, rate of change of acceleration. Now if one confines oneself to straight in-line motion, then personally, I find it hard to think of the physical meaning of acceleration, let alone rate of change of acceleration. Oh I know that there is the push in the back one gets when taking off in a jet - but this seems a very transitory affair, a bit like the feeling of weightlessness they give trainee astronauts by sending their plane on a parabolic trajectory. Unlike velocity, which one can experience all day and all night, one can only experience in-line acceleration for brief periods. However, there are ways of experiencing acceleration continuously. The simplest way is to simply lie down on the floor. This will give the push-in-the back acceleration of one G continuously. Unfortunately, unless one can find some way of varying the mass of the earth it is difficult to increase the value of acceleration one experiences by prostration. Though it is beyond modern technology to increase a billionaire's lying-down-push-in-the-back acceleration sensation, it is within the scope of modern technology to reduce it all the way down to zero, and even reverse it so he experiences a lying-down-push-in-the-front sensation. One first constructs a long evacuated square section pipe contiguous with the earths surface, load the billionaire thrill seeker into his coffin which is fired down the coffin guide at an appropriate speed. He will gradually feel the push in his back reducing and eventually he will have a floating sensation and imagine he has risen ...upon the clouds of heaven... to join the angels. But as the coffin increases in speed he will feel himself crushed remorselessly against the roof by the high tech monster version of the wheel WSG refers to in his bab ballad..... ============================================ They branded me and broke me on a wheel, And they left me in a hospital to heal; And, upon my solemn word, I have never, never heard What those Tartars had determined to reveal. ============================================ ...and realise that far from entering heaven he is experiencing hell on earth, for - ====================================== et iterum dico vobis facilius est camelum per foramen acus transire quam divitem intrare in regnum caelorum ====================================== So much for the second derivative, but what about the third? How can we grasp what THAT means physically? We know what the conservation law is. It is the conservation of angular momentum, which makes up the trinity of engineering scale conservation laws. Conservation of momentum Conservation of energy Conservation of angular momentum. At this point things start to get a bit complicated. One can think of change of rate of acceleration as a ballet dancer spinning with her arms outstretched and then by pulling her arms in towards her body she can substantially increase her rate of spin. However this view has the same objection as trying to understand acceleration by confining oneself to straight in-line motion - only in this case of course it is confining oneself to in-plane motion. The dancer cannot manifest continuous change in angular momentum. She can only manifest the difference between her arms outstretched and her arms close to her body. To manifest continuous angular acceleration one needs to play the same trick as one played for manifesting continuous acceleration. On has to subduct a velocity at right angles. Momentum involves a velocity in the x direction, acceleration a subducted velocity in the y direction so angular momentum will involve a second subduction velocity in the z direction. What does this mean in physical terms. Well, get hold of a toy gyro. Trap both ends of the axis in a horizonal circular slot which is held rigid. Spin the gyro. Then force the gyro round the slot against its turning resistance. Two forces will be operating - the force you are applying along the slot, and the force one side of the slot is applying to the axis end. If the slot is allowed to move in a vertical direction then the two ends of the gyro will describe a double helix. One can continue this process of subducting velocities at right angles till the cows come home, thereby generating conservation laws to our hearts content cos they are all manifestations of the conservation of hierarchical velocities/momentums at different scales. But "Hang on!" I hear someone complain, "You have used up all three dimensions." Mmm.....I have used up all three Cartesian dimensions which have lengths which are unbounded toward the indefinitely large and the indefinitely small. But the Cartesian geometry one is taught at school is a mathematical abstraction. It can't be applied willy- nilly to the real world. In the real world real things have upper and lower bounds so one must use an x, y, and z geometry which also has upper and lower bounds. This means that we can nest as many spaces as we like in the manner of Russian dolls or Chinese boxes [an appropriate model for me since I have both a Russian and a Chinese daughter-in-law. 8-) ] This is why, for example, there is no problem in mentally visualising the "coiled-coiled-coiled-........coil." discussed in http://www.escribe.com/science/vortex/m32032.html Such a structure implicitly has upper and lower bounds at each level since a coil cannot be smaller than twice the diameter of the wire, nor larger than the coil one higher in the pecking order. Cheers Grimer From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Nov 2 17:58:48 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iA31wf8H002614; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 17:58:41 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iA31wQwR002155; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 17:58:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 17:58:26 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <410-22004113305718160@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Electromagnetic Commutating & Non-Radiating Charge Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 18:57:18 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9404fba439b5ce625704b0154082cfef2b1350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.120.68 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56323 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII I posted earlier: > > The String Theory "zero width" electromagnetic wave "current loops" with relativistically > invariant charge (+/- q =1.6e-19 coulombs) circling side-by-side at near c set up a magnetic field > with intensity q*c = 4.8e-11 ampere-meters each. > > For an electron-positron-electron "group" with a loop circumference of 2(pi)* 2.82 e-15 meters > at 4.9e-11 ampere meters the current ( I ) = 4.8e-11/1.765e-14 = 2.72e3 amperes in each loop. > OTOH, if the charge q is Appearing at a frequency ( f ) = c/2(pi)*2.82e-15= 1.69e22 Hz or t = 1/1.69e22 = 5.9e-23 seconds for the electron (2.03e25 Hz for a proton quark) then the charge is " rotating" in a circle, but not accelerating as such. Reminiscent of a string of light bulbs sequentially lighted by a commutating switch. If that is the case, the 2.72e3 ampere (or 1.66e6 ampere quark) Displacement Current (Id) = C dV/dt suggests that the Inductance of Space (uo) = 4(pi)e-7 Henry/Meter is a manifestation of the Capacitance of Space (eo) = 8.85e-12 Farad/Meter only, making it Fictitious. C = 2(pi)r* 8.85e-12. Then the Impedance of Space Zo = (uo/eo)^1/2 is created by the EM Waves/Photons themselves, which brings up the role of the 137*c FTL "phase velocity". Time to VETO or is it VOTE? :-) Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

I posted earlier:
>
> The String Theory "zero width" electromagnetic wave "current loops" with relativistically
> invariant charge (+/- q =1.6e-19 coulombs) circling side-by-side at near c  set up a magnetic field
> with intensity q*c = 4.8e-11 ampere-meters each.
>
> For an electron-positron-electron "group" with a loop circumference of 2(pi)* 2.82 e-15 meters
> at 4.9e-11 ampere meters the current ( I )  = 4.8e-11/1.765e-14 = 2.72e3 amperes in each loop.
>
OTOH, if the charge q is Appearing at a frequency ( f ) = c/2(pi)*2.82e-15= 1.69e22 Hz or
t = 1/1.69e22 = 5.9e-23 seconds for the electron (2.03e25 Hz for a proton quark)
then the charge is " rotating" in a circle, but not accelerating as
such. Reminiscent of a string of light bulbs sequentially lighted by a commutating switch.
 
If that is the case, the 2.72e3  ampere (or 1.66e6 ampere quark) Displacement Current (Id) = C dV/dt suggests that
the Inductance of Space (uo) = 4(pi)e-7 Henry/Meter is a manifestation of the Capacitance of Space
(eo) = 8.85e-12 Farad/Meter only, making it Fictitious. C = 2(pi)r* 8.85e-12.
 
Then the Impedance of Space Zo = (uo/eo)^1/2  is created by the EM Waves/Photons themselves,
which brings up the role of the 137*c  FTL "phase velocity".
 
Time to VETO or is it VOTE?   :-)
 
Frederick
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Nov 2 18:01:57 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iA321l8H004526; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 18:01:47 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iA321jZn004503; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 18:01:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 18:01:45 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002a01c4c149$0d68c580$0100007f@xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Bismuth in masquerade? Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 20:00:58 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0026_01C4C116.ABD1C830" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.8 required=4.0 tests=HTML_30_40,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56324 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0026_01C4C116.ABD1C830 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0027_01C4C116.ABD1C830" ------=_NextPart_001_0027_01C4C116.ABD1C830 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankOnce knew a man that spent his days during WW2 on the Manhattan = project that remained puzzled by bismuth. Such an oddity that he = considered the element unexplainable. Something about bismuth just = doesn't fit. For one thing it's not poison... or is it? Caused me to think about masquerades. Could what we see as bismuth = actually be a " leftover" or a subtle illusive illusion of something = else ? Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0027_01C4C116.ABD1C830 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Once knew a man that spent his days during WW2 on the = Manhattan=20 project that remained puzzled by bismuth. Such an oddity that he = considered the=20 element unexplainable. Something about bismuth just doesn't fit. = For one=20 thing it's not poison... or is it?
Caused me to think about masquerades. Could what we see as bismuth = actually=20 be a " leftover" or a subtle illusive illusion of something else ?
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_0027_01C4C116.ABD1C830-- ------=_NextPart_000_0026_01C4C116.ABD1C830 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <002501c4c148$f6661db0$0100007f@xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0026_01C4C116.ABD1C830-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Nov 2 18:40:30 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iA32eK8H017570; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 18:40:21 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iA32eJkS017558; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 18:40:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 18:40:19 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <003701c4c14e$68106010$0100007f@xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Sustainable development add Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 20:39:18 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0033_01C4C11C.06B66BC0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=4.0 tests=HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: <1Y5_o.A.RSE.TUEiBB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56326 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0033_01C4C11C.06B66BC0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0034_01C4C11C.06B66BC0" ------=_NextPart_001_0034_01C4C11C.06B66BC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankThe consulting engineering profession is entering a = reconceptualizing stage that approaches the accounting profession in the = profound changes coming in defining " work product" and the method of = sustaining profitably. An example: In Texas we have a nightmare problem with solid waste = disposal. There are State agencies dealing with the problem by subtly = re-arranging the deck chairs of industry giants with deep pockets and = lobbyists.=20 I recently proposed to the State that "big" money was to be made in the = emerging market of recycling solids waste. The price of scrap iron, = copper and strategic metals alone continue to double while the State = fiddles with ways to write situational papers. Locall we have an Alcoa = plant near Austin that mines lignite coal to supply fuel to fire their = electric power plant for producing aluminum. The plant is obsolete, the process used is obsolete. The plant is = surrounded by their strip mine of some 50,000 acres. They would like to = shut the unprofitable facility down but jobs would be lost. My = suggestion was for the State to form a consortium with industry = including Alcoa to convert the facility to an advanced technology solids = waste treatment and recycling plant. The land is already laid waste. = Alcoa could participate and recover some stranded costs as the electric = power players in Texas have done with some extremely interesting new = legislation which allows " obsolete" electric power generating plants to = " sell" down their investment via an "add to" fee on each users monthly = power bill. ( in fact some of the old power plants have been sold down = several times each, after all this is Texas where no man's life or = property is safe when the legislature is in session). Well , back to the subject, being.. the structure is in place, the = legislation is in place, the market is ready.. all that awaits is the = innovative new technology to make the facility all encompassing for = "many" forms of waste including nuclear.=20 Imagine it . The facility could be used for a multi-state recovery and = recycling purpose. The pilot plant for testing could be put on fast = track. What happened to my suggestion? It was buried in the system. Enter the NEW Consulting Engineering firm of the future.. combining = their knowhow and experience dealing with public entities.. a way can be = found. Perhaps the new consulting engineering firms will reconceptualize = their business as " facilitators" for addressing needs for the new era = of recycling, sustainable energy, etc.The world banks are loaded with = cash waiting for someone to come in with a proposal. Talk about wearing = different hats.. an engineer's dream. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0034_01C4C11C.06B66BC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
The consulting engineering profession is entering a = reconceptualizing stage=20 that approaches the accounting profession in the profound changes coming = in=20 defining " work product" and the method of sustaining profitably.
 
An example: In Texas we have a nightmare problem with solid waste = disposal.=20 There are State agencies dealing with the problem by subtly re-arranging = the=20 deck chairs of industry giants with deep pockets and lobbyists.
 
I recently proposed to the State that "big" money was to be made in = the=20 emerging market of recycling solids waste. The price of scrap iron, = copper and=20 strategic metals alone continue to double while the State fiddles with = ways to=20 write situational papers. Locall we have an Alcoa plant near Austin that = mines=20 lignite coal to supply fuel to fire their electric power plant for = producing=20 aluminum.
The plant is obsolete, the process used is obsolete. The plant is=20 surrounded by their strip mine of some 50,000 acres. They would like to = shut the=20 unprofitable facility down but jobs would be  lost. My = suggestion=20 was for the State to form a consortium with industry including Alcoa to = convert=20 the facility to an advanced technology solids waste treatment and = recycling=20 plant. The land is already laid waste. Alcoa could participate and = recover some=20 stranded costs as the electric power players in Texas have done with = some=20 extremely interesting new legislation which allows " obsolete" electric = power=20 generating plants to " sell" down their investment via an "add to" fee = on each=20 users monthly power bill. ( in fact some of the old power plants have = been sold=20 down several times each, after all this is Texas where no man's life or = property=20 is safe when the legislature is in session).
 
Well , back to the subject, being.. the structure is in place, = the=20 legislation is in place, the market is ready.. all that awaits is the = innovative=20 new technology to make the facility all encompassing for  "many" = forms of=20 waste including nuclear.
Imagine it . The facility could be used for a multi-state recovery = and=20 recycling  purpose. The pilot plant for testing could be put on = fast=20 track.
 
What happened to my suggestion? It was buried in the system.
 
Enter the NEW  Consulting Engineering  firm of the = future..=20 combining their knowhow and experience dealing with public entities.. a = way can=20 be found. Perhaps the new consulting engineering firms will = reconceptualize=20 their business as " facilitators" for addressing needs for the new era = of=20 recycling, sustainable energy, etc.The world banks are loaded with cash = waiting=20 for someone to come in with a proposal. Talk about wearing different = hats.. an=20 engineer's dream.
 
Richard
 

 

------=_NextPart_001_0034_01C4C11C.06B66BC0-- ------=_NextPart_000_0033_01C4C11C.06B66BC0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <003201c4c14e$51493aa0$0100007f@xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0033_01C4C11C.06B66BC0-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Nov 2 19:13:26 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iA33DMcX030375; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 19:13:23 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iA33DEXT030333; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 19:13:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 19:13:14 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <41884CC3.9010806@ihug.co.nz> Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 16:13:07 +1300 From: John Berry User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Windows/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Hello References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56327 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Billb wrote: > :) virus... From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Nov 2 19:14:17 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iA33ECcX030625; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 19:14:13 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iA33EBps030605; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 19:14:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 19:14:11 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <41884D26.10507@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 22:14:46 -0500 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040804 Netscape/7.2 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Bismuth in masquerade? References: <002a01c4c149$0d68c580$0100007f@xptower> In-Reply-To: <002a01c4c149$0d68c580$0100007f@xptower> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------080100060901020100020606" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56328 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------080100060901020100020606 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit RC Macaulay wrote: > Once knew a man that spent his days during WW2 on the Manhattan > project that remained puzzled by bismuth. Such an oddity that he > considered the element unexplainable. Something about bismuth just > doesn't fit. For one thing it's not poison... or is it? > Caused me to think about masquerades. Could what we see as bismuth > actually be a " leftover" or a subtle illusive illusion of something > else ? An integral component of Art's Parts: http://anw.com/aliens/ArtsParts.htm http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/6583/roswell039.html relating to antigravity??? --------------080100060901020100020606 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

RC Macaulay wrote:
Blank
Once knew a man that spent his days during WW2 on the Manhattan project that remained puzzled by bismuth. Such an oddity that he considered the element unexplainable. Something about bismuth just doesn't fit. For one thing it's not poison... or is it?
Caused me to think about masquerades. Could what we see as bismuth actually be a " leftover" or a subtle illusive illusion of something else ?

An integral component of Art's Parts:

http://anw.com/aliens/ArtsParts.htm

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/6583/roswell039.html

relating to antigravity???
--------------080100060901020100020606-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Nov 3 01:08:44 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iA398d14008077; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 01:08:39 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iA398W72008038; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 01:08:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 01:08:32 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001c01c4c184$aedd9ea0$0500a8c0@nixlaptop> From: "Nick Palmer" To: References: <41884CC3.9010806@ihug.co.nz> Subject: Re: Hello Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 09:08:23 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56329 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Kohn Berry wrote Yes it looked like it, but the .scr attachment was only one byte, therefore not big enough for destructive code - my up to date Norton didn't flag it either From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Nov 3 03:28:20 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iA3BSE14027324; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 03:28:14 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iA3BSCmj027317; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 03:28:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 03:28:12 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20041103112822.006904e4@pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk@pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 11:28:22 +0000 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: RE: Dimensions of mass Resent-Message-ID: <1XaD7B.A.xqG.MDMiBB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56330 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In the previous post it was shown that velocity in the third hierarchical bounded-dimension involved a helical path. Now the next subducted dimension, the fourth hierarchical bounded dimension (not to be confused with time) would seem to lead us into completely new territory, a unit that becomes a new universe of phenomena. Interestingly enough the solenoid is a very well known precedent for this, i.e. a current-carrying coil of wire that acts like a magnet when a current passes through it. Now in a previous post (Tue, 13 Jul 2004 09:02:19) http://www.escribe.com/science/vortex/m31209.html I wrote, ==================================================== .........It has long struck me that magnetic flow lines cannot be at right angles electric flow lines. In short, we must have the same situation as in a ring vortex with a spiral helical flow around a axial orbital flow. Thingees at right angles don't interact coz there's no resolved component to drive the minor flow along. ==================================================== and of course, as all you electrical-geeks well appreciate, the three bounded-dimension solenoid leads to a one dimensional magnetic flux up its axis. Now magnetic flux is a whole new ball game as one would expect by opening up a subducted fourth dimension, eh! 8-) Logically {and as Mr.Spock's younger brother, I am very logical) it follows that if we drive a magnetic flux around a helix we will enter an entirely new phenomenological space. What space I haven't the faintest idea but I am sure all you experimental geniuses will soon investigate and let me know. You asked for suggestions, Keith, and I've given you one. Not only that, but I have given you a solid theoretical argument for believing that it will open up a new territory. Let's hope my fellow anglophones stake their claims before the Beautiful Islanders beat them to it. (I should explain that the "Beautiful Island" is not, as Jones imagined, the island of Britain, but the island of Formosa. I believe it's a translation from Portuguese). I can think of two places where [Coil-[coil-[coil-...[coil]...]]] structure are important. One is in DNA and the other is in rope manufacture. Also, very familiar example to anyone who has ever wound up a model plane's elastin motor is the way that the elastic forms a series of knots as the propeller rotated. When these first order knots have spread along the complete length of the motor, larger second order knots begin to form. One can imagine that if the elastic was of a very sticky composition then it might suddenly break up into a stream of individual blobs of tightly wound balls of elastic in much the same way as a stream of water from a tap breaks up into individual drops of water. Come to think of it, a hierarchy of vortices is probably involved in that process too. Simple experimentation should confirm this point. If hydrogen is generated by electric discharges, as Paul Rowe affirms, then it must be the result of a high order subducted three bounded-dimensions velocity. We know that buckyballs of carbon form at the m-th order, say. I see no reason why the equivalent nested materon "buckyballs" shouldn't form protons at the n-th order, say. Cheers Grimer From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Nov 3 07:33:11 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iA3FX4jm006960; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 07:33:04 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iA3FWsJB006886; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 07:32:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 07:32:54 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20041103153247.51514.qmail@web60302.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 07:32:47 -0800 (PST) From: Nick Reiter Subject: Re: Bismuth in masquerade? To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <41884D26.10507@rtpatlanta.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56331 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: OH NO IT'S BISMUTH TIME AGAIN It was pretty much overdue. Terry used the two magic phrases together in the same e-mail - "arts parts" and "bismuth" - to summon the genie of my discontent. sigh* OK here goes Forget about Art Bell's Bismuth Magnesium crashed UFO mystery metal. Its BS. It has turned from debacle into mythos, and now is virtually an irritatingly immortal meme. In 1996 I was one of the people who Linda Howe selected to look at a fragment of the sample of this supposed chunk of the Roswell crash. A couple years back, the whole matter was getting resurrected so often that it forced me to post a little write up of my own on it, which includes my original report to LMH. In truth, my opinion has hardened even further over the past 2 years. A misidentified piece of industrial trivia or a clevver hoax is one thing, but perpetuating it circus style just cheeses my sensibilities. My take on it can be found thus: http://www.theavalonfoundation.org/artsparts.htm Now, setting all of that aside... guess what? Bismuth is still one of the most wondrous elements on the periodic table! If I was going to hoax a UFO fragment, I would use Bi to keep all the alt-sci crowd and saucer conspiracists busy guessing for years... Bismuth is the most diamagnetic of elements, and also appeared prominently in Carroll's patent for filamentary superconductors. It also was or is one of the most promising stars in the odd half integer spin nucleon kinemassic gravity claims of Wallace, along with Cu. It makes a traditional moderate - Z thermoelectric material as a telluride. Nice non-lead replacement for bullets and sinkers, and makes your castings sharp as can be due to its property of expanding upon cooling. Occupies a spot on the periodic table right over where... errrrr...element 115 would be. (I offer that only for the lore collectors and antigravity claim trivia freaks) Good stuff. Right up there with my personal favorite - tellurium. Look at tellurium's atomic number versus its atomic weight, then compare those values with those of its neighbors Iodine and Antimony on the Periodic Table. Best, NR --- Terry Blanton wrote: > > > RC Macaulay wrote: > > > Once knew a man that spent his days during WW2 on > the Manhattan > > project that remained puzzled by bismuth. Such an > oddity that he > > considered the element unexplainable. Something > about bismuth just > > doesn't fit. For one thing it's not poison... or > is it? > > Caused me to think about masquerades. Could what > we see as bismuth > > actually be a " leftover" or a subtle illusive > illusion of something > > else ? > > > An integral component of Art's Parts: > > http://anw.com/aliens/ArtsParts.htm > > http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/6583/roswell039.html > > relating to antigravity??? > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Nov 3 08:41:09 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iA3Geojm009251; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 08:40:54 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iA3Gel1a009209; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 08:40:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 08:40:47 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000b01c4c1c3$a3e517a0$d0bcfea9@jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <20041103153247.51514.qmail@web60302.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Bismuth in masquerade? Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 08:39:07 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56332 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Nick Reiter wrote: > It also was or is one of > the most promising stars in the odd half integer spin > nucleon kinemassic gravity claims of Wallace, RC Macaulay wrote: > Once knew a man that spent his days during WW2 on > the Manhattan project that remained puzzled by bismuth. Such an > oddity that he considered the element unexplainable. This is the first that I have heard of the "kinemassic" claim. However, following up on what Richard is taking about (which may have been mentioned in the Rhodes book on the Manhattan project), I remember hearing about some definite "peculiarities" concerning bismuth during the LMBR and MSR (liquid metal/salt cooled reactors) days at Oak Ridge in the 60s. I tried to find something from google on the net just now, but nothing turned up. If memory serves, bismuth was considered a promising addition to lead for a coolant... at first... as it has very favorable neutron cross-section and thermal properties. There was one big problem, however and surprisingly it was "containment" ! It seem that you can have a bismuth alloy or eutectic in one totally *sealed* circuit - completely encased in SS tubing and miraculously it will somehow "seep" through ANY metal and appear in the adjoining circuit - a bit of a problem in a reactor - no doubt. Bismuth was dropped and probably contributed to the shelving of the BEST reactor design available at that point in time. I never heard a good explanation of what was going on with the Bismuth. Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Nov 3 08:58:54 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iA3Gwk14006381; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 08:58:46 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iA3Gwh8R006366; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 08:58:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 08:58:43 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <41890E5C.4070403@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 11:59:08 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Bismuth in masquerade? References: <20041103153247.51514.qmail@web60302.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20041103153247.51514.qmail@web60302.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56333 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Nick Reiter wrote: >Terry used the two magic >phrases together in the same e-mail - "arts parts" and >"bismuth" - to summon the genie of my discontent. > To further rub your bottle . . . :-) do you know if anyone ever performed an isotopic assay of the material? From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Nov 3 09:19:27 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iA3HJBjm028871; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 09:19:11 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iA3HJ82K028835; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 09:19:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 09:19:08 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20041103171858.63523.qmail@web60303.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 09:18:58 -0800 (PST) From: Nick Reiter Subject: Re: Bismuth in masquerade? To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <41890E5C.4070403@rtpatlanta.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56334 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ja Ja! Re: Isotopic analysis. I myself never saw anything definitive. In some of the talk radio and on-line accounts, I think it was insinuated that isotopic analysis was done, but never any data. Again... that I could find. I seem to recall that EDS showed the Bi had a small amount of Pb (lead, not peanut butter) associated with it. Being as the general thickness of the bismuth "jelly" between the layers of Mg "bread" was about a micron or two, there wasn't much to work with. The Mg alloy layers were between 100 and 200 microns thick. I certainly don't mind discussing or talking about it, in a technical sense! I would have looked at it as a wonderful little case of industrial sleuthing even if the original context didn't include Roswell flotsam! N --- Terry Blanton wrote: > Nick Reiter wrote: > > >Terry used the two magic > >phrases together in the same e-mail - "arts parts" > and > >"bismuth" - to summon the genie of my discontent. > > > > To further rub your bottle . . . :-) > > do you know if anyone ever performed an isotopic > assay of the material? > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Nov 3 19:00:32 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iA430T14009778; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 19:00:30 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iA42v5Oe009267; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 18:57:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 18:57:05 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002301c4c219$b99c0f80$d0bcfea9@jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <2.2.32.20041103112822.006904e4@pop.freeserve.net> Subject: Re: Dimensions of mass Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 18:55:20 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56335 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frank, > I can think of two places where [Coil-[coil-[coil-...[coil]...]]] > structure are important. One is in DNA and the other is in rope > manufacture. Yes. And mother nature got us to DNA basically by trial and error, so can the super-dimensional jounce-like benefits of layered helicity be magnified by applying intelligent engineering? BTW the "static" benefit of extraordinary strength (rope) and the "dynamic" benefit of OU efficiency (negative resistance) may not be as fundamentally different as they seem on the surface. Both could ultimately be issues of material design. In this coming era (hopefully, the next few years) we should see easy access to 1) very low-loss glassy metal cores (in wire form) 2) very low loss high frequency semi-conductors, 3) perhaps ultraconductor wires ot RTSCs, if not then lots of dry ice... ...it is just a matter of time before some creative kid takes this idea to the extreme - probably a high school geek "science-fair" type with lots of manual dexterity and few friends... and, of course, a pushy mom and a broken X-box... I am looking forward to see what will happen when you get about 6 layers deep in helcity - and not just [Coil-[coil-[coil-...[coil]...]]] but the double inductance variation which is [CBFCoil-[CBFcoil-[CBFcoil-...[CBFcoil]...]]] ... where, of course, CBF stands for "concentric bifilar" and you basic "wire" might consists of... well, why not a four-ply compound construction which is designed to maximize both electrical and magnetic cross-inductance... perhaps consisting of: 1) low loss axial core wire (linear glassy metal) surrounded by 2) CW wound primary winding, wound as near to orthogonal as practical to the core 3) CCW wound, secondary concentric bifilar winding, wound as near to orthogonal as possible to the underlying primary winding (some kind of weave is the OK also) 4) low loss external core or diamagnetic isulator This is the basic unit or "wire" which can then be coiled in many overlapping layers of compound helicies and toroids...using supermagnets, resonance, magic numbers and a lot of imagination... etc. just to give the perpmo skeptics some fuel for derision ... ;-) If one can engineer nearly lossless 'reactance' in a glassy metal so that ZPE gives you "free" realignment of domains for a "Casimir-spring-effect," in essence ... and why not?... well, time will tell if ZPE can be cohered in this or similar fashion. And as alluded in a previous post ("rule of 70"), one only needs to get a transformer up to 102%-103% efficiency to make things interesting for commercial implementation.... Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Nov 4 07:43:21 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iA4FhHcc027299; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 07:43:17 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iA4Fh5DJ027231; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 07:43:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 07:43:05 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20041104153309.78696.qmail@web54505.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 07:33:09 -0800 (PST) From: Adam Cox Subject: RE: Dimensions of mass To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.20041103112822.006904e4@pop.freeserve.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-2057292275-1099582389=:78678" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56336 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-2057292275-1099582389=:78678 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Actually, I have no problem with "magnetic lines of force" interacting at right angles to the average current direction for a number of reasons. First, do magnetic lines of force exist? It is simply a method of visualizing a magnetic field. If you think about it, the lines of force visualization came about by observing iron filings in a magnetic field. Like any ferromagnetic material these filings create their own magnetic field which increases the net field inside the material and decreases the field outside the material. Thus, the filings would form lines with respect to the net external magnetic field. Second, how does magnetism arise? A magnetic field exerts a force on a moving charge. Since all particles have a spin component, they would respond to an outside force in much the same fashion as a gyroscope, with a resultant motion at right angles to the force. Third, the net field is apparently at right angles to the AVERAGE motion of the electrons. No particle ever moves in a straight line "unless it acts in a vacuum". I have had some thoughts about electricity and magnetism over the years and have decided that there is more to the observed effects than the theories account for. When I get an actual unified concept of electromagnetism down I'll let you know, but untill then I will continue to look at EM effects from a slightly different angle. BTW does anybody know where I can get Bismuth of decent purity relatively cheap? I need it for an experiment with diamagnetic effects. If possible bismuth wire would be ideal. Grimer wrote: Interestingly enough the solenoid is a very well known precedent for this, i.e. a current-carrying coil of wire that acts like a magnet when a current passes through it. Now in a previous post (Tue, 13 Jul 2004 09:02:19) http://www.escribe.com/science/vortex/m31209.html I wrote, ==================================================== .........It has long struck me that magnetic flow lines cannot be at right angles electric flow lines. In short, we must have the same situation as in a ring vortex with a spiral helical flow around a axial orbital flow. Thingees at right angles don't interact coz there's no resolved component to drive the minor flow along. ==================================================== Merlyn Magickal Engineer and Technical Metaphysicist --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com/a --0-2057292275-1099582389=:78678 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Actually, I have no problem with "magnetic lines of force" interacting at right angles to the average current direction for a number of reasons.
 
First, do magnetic lines of force exist?  It is simply a method of visualizing a magnetic field.  If you think about it, the lines of force visualization came about by observing iron filings in a magnetic field.  Like any ferromagnetic material these filings create their own magnetic field which increases the net field inside the material and decreases the field outside the material.  Thus, the filings would form lines with respect to the net external magnetic field.
 
Second, how does magnetism arise?  A magnetic field exerts a force on a moving charge.  Since all particles have a spin component, they would respond to an outside force in much the same fashion as a gyroscope, with a resultant motion at right angles to the force.
 
Third, the net field is apparently at right angles to the AVERAGE motion of the electrons.  No particle ever moves in a straight line "unless it acts in a vacuum".
 
I have had some thoughts about electricity and magnetism over the years and have decided that there is more to the observed effects than the theories account for.  When I get an actual unified concept of electromagnetism down I'll let you know, but untill then I will continue to look at EM effects from a slightly different angle.
 
BTW does anybody know where I can get Bismuth of decent purity relatively cheap?  I need it for an experiment with diamagnetic effects.  If possible bismuth wire would be ideal.

Grimer <f.grimer@grimer2.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
<snip>
Interestingly enough the solenoid is a very well known
precedent for this, i.e. a current-carrying coil of wire that
acts like a magnet when a current passes through it.

Now in a previous post (Tue, 13 Jul 2004 09:02:19) http://www.escribe.com/science/vortex/m31209.html

I wrote,

====================================================
.........It has long struck
me that magnetic flow lines cannot be at right angles
electric flow lines. In short, we must have the same
situation as in a ring vortex with a spiral helical
flow around a axial orbital flow. Thingees at right
angles don't interact coz there's no resolved
component to drive the minor flow along.
====================================================
<snip>


Merlyn
Magickal Engineer and Technical Metaphysicist

Do you Yahoo!?
Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 11:56:50 EST Subject: Manufacturing going to China..off topic To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_1dd.2fbde97a.2ebbb952_boundary" X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6808 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56337 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --part1_1dd.2fbde97a.2ebbb952_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here in Western PA USA manufacturing plants are closing like mad. Just this week we lost two, Hedstrom in Bedford, PA and Fisher Scientific in Indiana, PA. The Fisher production is being relocated to China. 15 years ago our steel plants closed due to imnence competition from Japan. 18 thousand jobs were lost. These jobs have been here for 150 years. I worked in the steel plants in the 1970s. The workers told me that Johnstown Steel helped to win wars. The government would never allow it to close. We would then be dependent on foreign steel; Unacceptable! Time has told the story. The steel industry is gone. I took a picture of what is left of the once great Johnstown Plant. http://www.angelfire.com/pa/ParksJohnstown/dome.html We could, however, go to secondary manufacturing and get a lower paying job. Ross Peroe warned us. He said all that hear a sucking sound as industry left the county. Here is a sample of has happened. Last year Bestform garments went to Mexico. Two years ago Black and Decker bought Emglo. a local compressor company. and moved the production abroad. E glo stand for M Glosser a company started by immigrants 80 years ago. In one strike 80 years of building is gone. Three years ago a large Corning Glass Plant in State College moved to China. I guess they now have enough electrical power to make glass. We thought we could downsize our life again and get a low pay job in the service industry. Surprise, Walmart is automating checkout. Opps there goes the low pay option. Greenshan says that the problem is that we don't have enough engineers and scientists. I am an engineer and there are no jobs. I don't blame the kids for going into other professions. Can we all be nurses? I don't see the big picture. How to we arrive at greatness by selling out and downsizing? I returned to college 5 years ago to study computer science. The professor said. " I see we have a very large class. Blue collar jobs are a thing of the past. You need to learn this high tech stuff to get the jobs of the future." Ahh, It has proven easier to move these high tech jobs then it was to move the steel industry. Steel requires infrastructure, roads, power, water. High tech required only the planting of a satellite dish in the ground and an office. High tech is going to India. Once China meets a critical mass, with our money, technology, and plants...why will they need us. They will take the lead with innovation. They are smart and have a good work ethic. AT that point will we will follow. Hmm I wonder, How do you plant rice? Bush has his job cut out for him. With industry gone we are now living off of an increasing national dept. and trade imbalance. How long can this go on? I hope the DOE comes out with a positive review of cold fusion. We need something new. Frank Z --part1_1dd.2fbde97a.2ebbb952_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Here in Western PA USA manufacturin= g plants are closing like mad.  Just this week we lost two, Hedstrom in= Bedford, PA and Fisher Scientific in Indiana, PA. 

The Fisher production is being relocated to China. 

15 years ago our steel plants closed due to imnence competition from Japan.&= nbsp; 18 thousand jobs were lost.  These jobs have been here for 150 ye= ars.
I worked in the steel plants in the 1970s.  The workers told me that Jo= hnstown Steel helped to win wars.  The government would never allow it=20= to
close.  We would then be dependent on foreign steel;  Unacceptable= !   Time has told the story.  The steel industry is gone. I t= ook a picture of what is left of the once great Johnstown Plant.

http://www.angelfire.com/pa/ParksJohnstown/dome.html

We could, however, go to secondary manufacturing and get a lower paying job.=   Ross Peroe warned us.  He said all that hear a  sucking
sound as industry left the county.

Here is a sample of has happened.

Last year Bestform garments went to Mexico.

Two years ago Black and Decker bought  Emglo. a local compressor compan= y. and moved the production abroad.  E glo stand for
M Glosser a company started by  immigrants 80 years ago.  In one s= trike 80 years of building is gone.

Three years ago a large Corning Glass Plant in State College moved to China.=   I guess they now have enough electrical power to make glass.

We thought we could downsize our life again and get a low pay job in the ser= vice industry.

Surprise, Walmart is automating checkout.  Opps there goes the low pay=20= option.

Greenshan says that the problem is that we don't have enough engineers and s= cientists. I am an engineer and there are no jobs.  I don't blame the k= ids for going into other professions.  Can we all be nurses?

I don't see the big picture.  How to we arrive at greatness by selling=20= out and downsizing?

I returned to college 5 years ago to study computer science.  The profe= ssor said.  " I see we have a very large class. Blue collar jobs are a=20= thing of the past.
You need to learn this high tech stuff to get the jobs of the future."

Ahh,  It has proven easier to move these high tech jobs then it was to=20= move the steel industry.  Steel requires infrastructure, roads, power,=20= water.  High tech required only the planting of a satellite dish in the= ground and an office.  High tech is going to India.

Once China meets a critical mass, with our money, technology, and plants...w= hy will they need us.  They will take the lead with innovation.  T= hey are smart and have a good work ethic.  AT that point will we will f= ollow.  Hmm I wonder, How do you plant rice?

Bush has his job cut out for him.  With industry gone we are now living= off of an increasing national dept. and trade imbalance.  How long can= this go on?

I hope the DOE comes out with a positive review of cold fusion.  We nee= d something new. 

Frank Z --part1_1dd.2fbde97a.2ebbb952_boundary-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Nov 4 09:04:18 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iA4H4Acc005538; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 09:04:10 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iA4H49TW005519; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 09:04:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 09:04:09 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <003801c4c290$13961aa0$d0bcfea9@jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: The (*e-) Factory, "lite" version Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 09:02:32 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0035_01C4C24D.05068440" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56338 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0035_01C4C24D.05068440 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Warning: the "lite" part is in reference to the modest size of the = proposed device, not the length of this post. This suggestion combines several related CF theories and experiments = into a proposed small scale experimental device (even more = miniaturization is possible than what is suggested). It is hoped that = the results might better demonstrate one of the underlying mechanisms = for LENR excess-energy formation; and also might provide a clearer route = towards eventual commercialization of a "direct conversion" type of CF = cell (i.e. a direct non-Carnot electrical conversion of fusion output = into electricity). This experiment begins with the concept of "really cold fusion" of the = cryogenic variety, and molds the experiment partly around what we had = been discussing several months ago. We had been calling CF boosting with = coherent light the "Letts' effect," although he was not the first to do = it. The only problem with that experiment, IMHO is that Letts used a = frequency which was way above optimum. The fact that it still worked is = important. At any rate, the laser-type setup itself is one which lends = itself to the direct conversion of charged particles into usable current = (even if the magnetic alignment issues have not been worked out yet). = Therefore, this proposal is a very different setup from that of Letts = and other laser-CF experiments. Plus, this design includes a = "multipactor" type of direct conversion scheme which is no less = efficient in miniature than at large scale. There are actually good = reasons to believe that "really cold CF" is "reverse economy of scale" = process which would tend to favor a smaller setup over a larger one. The experiment itself can be miniaturized but unfortunately, it will = still be rather expensive to implement correctly; as it involves a = vacuum, a source of coherent terahertz light, an 'active' = deuteron-conductive membrane (hopefully titanium), a cryogenic cold = plate, and a strong (~1 T)magnetic solenoid manifold (permanent magnet = NIB solenoid should be OK). The cell itself can be smaller than a stack = of a 3 dimes - on one side is a two way cathode membrane, on the other = side a "lens" transparent to IR but nonporous to D2. A gap of a few mm = can separate the two. We would be anticipating a linked compound "system" rather than a single = reaction, in which "production" and "conversion" are processes which are = isolated from each other. That is: a cryogenic CF cell, in which a = membrane is IR laser-irradiated on one side, feeds a magnetic solenoid = manifold going into a direct conversion scheme of three or four = multipactor flat electrodes in series. In the total system sense, a = really cold version of gas phase electrolysis/photolysis would be = performed at cryogenic temperatures of minus154 degrees F. (-103 C, or = 173K) on deuterium gas, which temperature has been determined by the = Tsuchida analysis, mentioned in prior posts, to be important. =20 Let me digress here a bit here at the risk of getting into metaphysics = because of this realization. IF this temperature is resonant for D2 = quantum effects as the paper suggests, then a MOST fortuitous physical = factor arises - almost like a "master plan" which has been waiting to be = discovered. Why? To understand this, you must appreciate the paradigm shift that = occurs when photon light becomes coherent, as in the laser/maser. There = is a rather dramatic change in its characteristic to the extent that it = can cut steel and cause nuclear reactions - just by going coherent. And = on top of that, one must appreciate this coherency-paradigm shift in the = context of physical *phonons*. There is an EXTREMELY narrow range of = light which can overlap the range in which phonons can vibrate in = harmony with photons in a structural material which does not melt and = still can retain D2 gas in the interstitial spaces. That spectrum of = light would be higher than microwave and at the low end of the IR = spectrum, which is a previously under-utilized spectrum known as the = terahertz range. This was probably unknown to Tsuchida, who comes across = this temperature mathematically. At any rate, if this works, there will be those who will bring up the = doctrine of "pre-ordained plan" into the equation. So be it. At any rate, in the initial stage of the device, D2 gas is ducted from a = small lecture bottle into the chilled cell, where the cathode potential = and coherent IR irradiation takes place on the internal surface of a = titanium cathode (Pd plated?) which is membrane which will pass the gas = with or without photoelectric effects. There is no anode within the cell = - but the first plate of the external direct converter serves as the = anode. It can be several cm removed from the cell. When metal-entrained D2 gas, at the cathode interface, is irradiated = with IR laser stimulation at the exact effective frequency of the = membrane temperature, a synergistic and solid-state phonon/photon = coherence is expected to create D2 fusion of a different variety called = BEC-like. Fusion of this different sort (in terms of spatial = dimensionality) will be poised to take place creating charged particles = called electronium (*e-) emerging from the external side of the cathode, = being attracted to the anode. It is theorized that that the combined = effect of pressure, decreased temperature and resonant IR stimulation at = the effective temperature wavelength will create an overwhelming = sub-nanometer resonance for BEC-like fusion.=20 In the interstitial cavities of the membrane, it is suggested that = fusion output will be in the form of a particular "product" - a = manufactured particle which is the bound-lepton triad which we have been = calling electronium (*e-). Applying a version of Dirac's ideas to this = interfacial area, as many as two dozen of these particles can be = manufactured when D2 fuses. The output would be in the form of low kinetic-energy charged particles = which are captured by the magnetic field of the solenoid and accelerated = into a series of collection plates - of the typed known as the = Farnsworth multipactor. An acceleration potential will be applied (which = field is parasitic) of enough energy to force the immediate decay of = (*e-) on the first anode plate - giving an output of over one MeV per = particle. Although several tens of keV per particle may required to be = input into the system; nevertheless a high net energy output is = anticipated. Obviously, this highly speculative write-up presents the = most optimistic case imaginable, but there is plenty of room for = commercial application, even if less than optimum results occur, even if = the output is in the form of particles other than (*e-) . When one combines the high "effective" confinement pressure of a metal = matrix (let's hope that titanium works best for this one) along with low = kinetic parameters of cryogenics, plus a resonant coherent reinforcement at the = exact temperature equivalent of the actual temperature, then the end = result could be a *paradigm shift* in solid state confinement - similar = to that involved in coherent light. In short, this can be called = coherent solid state "sound"! or perhaps "coherent blackbody radiation" = is a more appropriate description, but at a single frequency in the = terahertz range, which prior theory and experiment has pinpointed as = being optimum for D2 QM effects. Several past references have been made to the possibility that the = so-called "Letts' effect" is a robust, or much higher than normal QM = reaction. More specifically it may be evidence of BEC-like coherence = being "forced" into deuterium-loaded palladium. This is not independent = of QM "tunneling" but the two may work together in concert. In 1989, Pons & Fleischmann argued that fusion was taking place at = rather low temperature because the "effective" confinement pressure = which exists in a D-loaded Pd matrix was equivalent to D2 gas pressures = of about 8x10^26 atm. Others (E. Storms) have countered that = electrolytic action, or overpotential, does not produce "any actual = pressure" over about 1 atm. The Italian researcher Celani, on the other = hand, has gone to great lengths to equate actual pressure with = overpotential and states that the common 1:1 D2 gas loading is the = indeed the "real equivalent" of 22,000 atm. His argument is convincing. http://www.memex.it/Fusione/Celani.htm One effect of high pressure is in the "closing up" of a degree of = freedom in confined systems, thereby reducing entropy. For example, a = pressure of 12,000 atm. reduces the entropy of many metals by 30 per = cent and the "effective temperature" by far more. Pressure does this by = converting temperature into "kinetic potential," a feature that is = inherent in all entropic systems. Pressure, in many respects, produces = physical effects identical to low temperature. 1000 atm can be = considered for some purposes roughly equivalent to a temperature of ~12 = =BA K. If Tsuchida is correct, we need only reach a "coherent = temperature" of 172 K, or -154F, which is above the temperature of = liquid nitrogen (and can be achieved with dry ice and acetone, according = to F.S.). This is coincidentally similar to the temperature range of = many high temperature semiconductors. The paper referenced by Colin = Quinney recently has information on the cross-over connection between = the two fields. The beta-aether, as demonstrated in the Casimir law, is an inverse = fourth power law. At a separation of 10 nm the force per unit area is = about 1 atm. above background, but because the active site in LENR is = much smaller then Casimir dimensions, we may have 4th (or fifth) power = enhancement. In 1997 the prediction of Casimir was verified for the = first time. In 1998 precision measurements corroborated the predictions = to an accuracy of several percent, so that part is beyond speculation. But 1 atm is nowhere near 1000 atm, but neither is the aether uniform. A = hierarchical aether, like the theory of Frank Grimer may predict a = change to a different "power law" below the Forster radius of about 2 = nanometers. A classical calculation shows that the power radiated by a = blackbody is also proportional to the inverse fourth power of = wavelength, following the same constraints as the Casimir...BUT... = Although this holds experimentally for long wavelengths, it fails = utterly for short wavelengths and was corrected by Max Planck. At short = wavelength we find a jump to a fifth power law. The same probably = happens in the CF matrix. In a remarkable paper by K. Tsuchida "Quantum states of Deuterons in = Palladium" Tenth International Conference on Cold Fusion, 2003, he looks = at the possibility of a condensate in the octahedral void of a Pd matrix = constructed by 6 vacancies within the FCC structure of Pd, which = functions as an "ion trap" for 5-6 deuterium ions. Actually deuterium = will not "fit" into this space, but three "helectronium" will fit and = the result will be carbon. At any rate, the radius in question is a = little over 3 angstrom. This would indicate that normal Casimir = pressures would be well over 1000 atm even without recourse to a higher = power law and a BEC-like coherence will be even more likely when the = active material is irradiated with light at a wavelength of that exact = temperature. We could be talking about ions being trapped at an = effective pressure of 10 million psi. Heat consists of seemingly random motion at the atomic level, but with = atoms (actually phonons) jostling at preferred vibrations levels = (blackbody radiation) in order to entropically dissipate energy. The = higher the temperature, the greater the atomic or molecular motion, and = the greater the seeming randomness of the emission spectrum... except = for the effects of pressurization. Keep this in mind: there is no firm = reason why blackbody radiation cannot be coherent. It is easy to confuse heat and internal energy, and thereby neglect = "internal potential energy" as part of that energy of vibration. The = percentage of internal stored potential energy associated with those = atoms molecules or ions can be varied by confinement. In the case of the = kinetic theory, the empirical basis comes from observed relationships = among variables like temperature, pressure, volume, and numbers of = particles for gases, and for the specific heats of gases and solids = (considering vibrational modes for solids). This also comes from the = experiments of Mayer and Joule that established heat as a form of energy = equivalent to mechanical energy.=20 But prior to this, I cannot find any evidence or to a situation where = heat (i.e. phonon vibrations) was considered to be capable of being = ordered into coherency, just as light photons are. But that is exactly = what is being suggested here. The whole exercise would be nothing more = than academic, if QM effects were not also optimized at this coherency = level. The rotational and vibrational kinetic energies, along with the = potential energies associated with vibration, are connected to the net = internal energy of the gas-filled matrix, so that if Celani is correct, = and Frank Grimer is correct then it follows that Beta-atmosphere partial = vacua of minus 22,000 atmospheres (approximately pF 7) exists. It is = within this exotic regions, shielded from the external Beta-atmosphere = differential pressure of 22,000 atmospheres, that cold fusion takes = place, and the suggestion is that it will occur robustly when those = parameters are optimized for phonon coherency.=20 If the Tsuchida analysis is correct, then Letts used a frequency that is = way off from optimum, and it is easy to show that the magnetic field he = used of 350 Gauss is way too puny. Deuterium would not be firmly = affected in anything less than 10 kilogauss, and that field intensity = would also be ideal for capturing the hypothetical (*e-). There are so = many accumulating coincidental facts here that it becomes difficult to = ignore the possibility of an underlying BEC-like coherence.=20 But the bottom line is that in the secondary subsystem, the direct = converter, when one forces the decay of (*e-) into Ps + (e-) then the = result is at least one MeV (2 x .511 MeV) from a reactant which is = nearly 2000 times less dense than the deuterium. So compared to using = hydrogen in a fuel cell and getting a few eV per proton, the difference = is seven orders of magnitude; but the real attraction to this idea, and = the reason why I think it is deserving of funding, is that it presents a = route for both higher efficiency and direct conversion, not to mention = some startling new physics. It would either be a paradigm shift or a major disappointment... but = being miniaturized, it would be a major disappointment of a more modest = sort.... Jones ------=_NextPart_000_0035_01C4C24D.05068440 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Warning: the "lite" part is in reference to the modest size of the = proposed=20 device, not the length of this post.
 
This suggestion combines several related CF theories and = experiments into a=20 proposed small scale experimental device (even more miniaturization is = possible=20 than what is suggested). It is hoped that the results might better = demonstrate=20 one of the underlying mechanisms for LENR excess-energy formation; and = also=20 might provide a clearer route towards eventual commercialization of a = "direct=20 conversion" type of CF cell (i.e. a direct non-Carnot electrical = conversion of=20 fusion output into electricity).
 
This experiment begins with the concept of "really cold = fusion"=20 of the cryogenic variety, and molds the experiment = partly around what=20 we had been discussing several months ago. We had been calling CF = boosting with=20 coherent light the "Letts' effect," although he was not the first to do = it. The=20 only problem with that experiment, IMHO is that Letts used a frequency = which=20 was way above optimum. The fact that it still worked is = important. At=20 any rate, the laser-type setup itself is one which lends itself to the = direct=20 conversion of charged particles into usable current (even if the = magnetic=20 alignment issues have not been worked out yet). Therefore,=20 this proposal is a very different setup from that of Letts and = other=20 laser-CF experiments. Plus, this design includes a "multipactor" type=20 of direct conversion scheme which is no less efficient in miniature = than at=20 large scale. There are actually good reasons to believe that "really = cold CF" is=20 "reverse economy of scale" process which would tend to favor a smaller = setup=20 over a larger one.
 
The experiment itself can be miniaturized but unfortunately, = it will=20 still be rather expensive to implement correctly; as it involves a = vacuum, a=20 source of coherent terahertz light, an 'active' deuteron-conductive = membrane=20 (hopefully titanium), a cryogenic cold plate, and a strong (~1 = T)magnetic=20 solenoid manifold (permanent magnet NIB solenoid should be OK). The = cell=20 itself can be smaller than a stack of a 3 dimes - on one side is a = two way=20 cathode membrane, on the other side a "lens" transparent to IR but = nonporous to=20 D2. A gap of a few mm can separate the two.

We would be anticipating a linked compound "system" rather than = a=20 single reaction, in which "production" and "conversion" = are=20 processes which are isolated from each other. That is: a cryogenic = CF=20 cell, in which a membrane is IR laser-irradiated on one = side, feeds a=20 magnetic solenoid manifold going into a direct conversion scheme of = three or=20 four multipactor flat electrodes in series. In the total system sense, a = really=20 cold version of gas phase electrolysis/photolysis would be performed at=20 cryogenic temperatures of minus154 degrees F. (-103 C, or 173K) on=20 deuterium gas, which temperature has been determined by the Tsuchida = analysis,=20 mentioned in prior posts, to be important.  
 
Let me digress here a bit here at the risk of getting into = metaphysics=20 because of this realization. IF this temperature is resonant for D2 = quantum=20 effects as the paper suggests, then a MOST fortuitous physical factor = arises -=20 almost like a "master plan" which has been waiting to be = discovered.
 
Why? To understand this, you must appreciate the paradigm shift = that occurs=20 when photon light becomes coherent, as in the laser/maser. There is a = rather=20 dramatic change in its characteristic to the extent that it can cut = steel and=20 cause nuclear reactions - just by going coherent. And on top of that, = one must=20 appreciate this coherency-paradigm shift in the context of physical = *phonons*.=20 There is an EXTREMELY narrow range of light which can overlap the range = in which=20 phonons can vibrate in harmony with photons in a structural material = which does=20 not melt and still can retain D2 gas in the interstitial spaces. That = spectrum=20 of light would be higher than microwave and at the low end of the IR = spectrum,=20 which is a previously under-utilized spectrum known as the terahertz = range. This=20 was probably unknown to Tsuchida, who comes across this temperature=20 mathematically.
 
At any rate, if this works, there will be those who will = bring up the=20 doctrine of  "pre-ordained plan" into the equation. So be it.
 
At any rate, in the initial stage of the device, D2 gas is ducted = from a=20 small lecture bottle into the chilled cell, where the cathode potential = and=20 coherent IR irradiation takes place on the internal surface of a = titanium=20 cathode (Pd plated?) which is membrane which will pass the gas with or = without=20 photoelectric effects. There is no anode within the cell - but the first = plate=20 of the external direct converter serves as the anode. It can be several = cm=20 removed from the cell.
 
When metal-entrained D2 gas, at the cathode interface, is = irradiated with IR laser stimulation at the exact effective frequency of = the=20 membrane temperature, a synergistic and solid-state phonon/photon = coherence=20 is expected to create D2 fusion of a different variety called BEC-like. = Fusion=20 of this different sort (in terms of spatial dimensionality) will be = poised=20 to take place creating charged particles called electronium (*e-) = emerging from=20 the external side of the cathode, being attracted to the anode. It is = theorized=20 that that the combined effect of pressure, decreased temperature and = resonant IR=20 stimulation at the effective temperature wavelength will create an=20 overwhelming sub-nanometer resonance for BEC-like fusion.
 
In the interstitial cavities of the membrane, it is suggested that = fusion=20 output will be in the form of a particular "product" - a = manufactured=20 particle which is the bound-lepton triad which we have been = calling=20 electronium (*e-). Applying a version of Dirac's ideas to this = interfacial area,=20 as many as two dozen of these particles can be manufactured when D2 = fuses.
 
The output would be in the form of  low kinetic-energy charged = particles which are captured by the magnetic field of the solenoid and=20 accelerated into a series of collection plates - of the typed known as = the=20 Farnsworth multipactor. An acceleration potential will be applied (which = field=20 is parasitic) of enough energy to force the immediate decay of (*e-) on = the=20 first anode plate - giving an output of over one MeV per particle. = Although=20 several tens of keV per particle may required to be input into the = system;=20 nevertheless a high net energy output is anticipated. Obviously, this = highly=20 speculative write-up presents the most optimistic case imaginable, but = there is=20 plenty of room for commercial application, even if less than optimum = results=20 occur, even if the output is in the form of particles other than=20 (*e-) .

When one combines the high "effective" confinement = pressure=20 of a metal matrix (let's hope that titanium works best for this one) = along with=20 low kinetic
parameters of cryogenics, plus a resonant coherent = reinforcement=20 at the exact temperature equivalent of the actual = temperature, then=20 the end result could be a *paradigm shift* in solid state = confinement -=20 similar to that involved in coherent light. In short, this can be=20 called coherent solid state "sound"!  or perhaps = "coherent=20 blackbody radiation" is a more appropriate description, but at a = single=20 frequency in the terahertz range, which prior theory and experiment has=20 pinpointed as being optimum for D2 QM effects.

Several past references have been made to the possibility that = the=20 so-called "Letts' effect" is a robust, or much higher than normal QM = reaction.=20 More specifically it may be evidence of BEC-like coherence being = "forced" into=20 deuterium-loaded palladium. This is not independent of QM "tunneling" = but the=20 two may work together in concert.

In 1989, Pons & Fleischmann = argued=20 that fusion was taking place at rather low temperature because the=20 "effective" confinement pressure which exists in a D-loaded Pd matrix = was=20 equivalent to D2 gas pressures of about 8x10^26 atm. Others (E. Storms) = have=20 countered that electrolytic action, or overpotential, does not produce = "any=20 actual pressure" over about 1 atm. The Italian researcher Celani, on the = other=20 hand, has gone to great lengths to equate actual pressure with=20 overpotential and states that the common 1:1 D2 gas loading is the = indeed the=20 "real equivalent" of 22,000 atm. His argument is convincing.
http://www.memex.it/Fusio= ne/Celani.htm

One=20 effect of high pressure is in the "closing up" of a degree of freedom in = confined systems, thereby reducing entropy. For example, a pressure of = 12,000=20 atm. reduces the entropy of many metals by 30 per cent and the = "effective=20 temperature" by far more. Pressure does this by = converting=20 temperature into "kinetic potential," a feature that is inherent in all = entropic=20 systems. Pressure, in many respects, produces physical effects identical = to low=20 temperature. 1000 atm can be considered for some purposes roughly = equivalent to=20 a temperature of ~12 =BA K. If Tsuchida is correct, we need only reach a = "coherent=20 temperature" of 172 K, or -154F, which is above the temperature of = liquid=20 nitrogen (and can be achieved with dry ice and acetone, according to = F.S.). This=20 is coincidentally similar to the temperature range of many high = temperature=20 semiconductors. The paper referenced by Colin Quinney recently has = information=20 on the cross-over connection between the two fields.

The = beta-aether, as=20 demonstrated in the Casimir law, is an inverse fourth power law. At a = separation=20 of 10 nm the force per unit area is about 1 atm. above background, but = because=20 the active site in LENR is much smaller then Casimir dimensions, we may = have 4th=20 (or fifth) power enhancement. In 1997 the prediction of Casimir was = verified for=20 the first time. In 1998 precision measurements corroborated the = predictions to=20 an accuracy of several percent, so that part is beyond = speculation.

But 1=20 atm is nowhere near 1000 atm, but neither is the aether uniform. A = hierarchical=20 aether, like the theory of Frank Grimer may predict a change to a = different=20 "power law" below the Forster radius of about 2 nanometers. A classical=20 calculation shows that the power radiated by a blackbody is also = proportional to=20 the inverse fourth power of wavelength, following the same constraints = as the=20 Casimir...BUT... Although this holds experimentally for long = wavelengths, it=20 fails utterly for short wavelengths and was corrected by Max = Planck.  At=20 short wavelength we find a jump to a fifth power law. The same probably = happens=20 in the CF matrix.

In a remarkable paper by K. Tsuchida "Quantum = states of=20 Deuterons in Palladium" Tenth International Conference on Cold Fusion, = 2003,=20 he looks at the possibility of a condensate in the octahedral void = of a Pd=20 matrix constructed by 6 vacancies within the FCC structure of Pd, which=20 functions as an "ion trap" for 5-6 deuterium ions. Actually deuterium = will not=20 "fit" into this space, but three "helectronium" will fit and the result = will be=20 carbon. At any rate, the radius in question is a little over 3 = angstrom.=20 This would indicate that normal Casimir pressures would be well over = 1000 atm=20 even without recourse to a higher power law and a BEC-like = coherence will=20 be even more likely when the active material is irradiated with light at = a=20 wavelength of that exact temperature. We could be talking about ions = being=20 trapped at an effective pressure of 10 million psi.

Heat consists = of=20 seemingly random motion at the atomic level, but with atoms (actually = phonons)=20  jostling at preferred vibrations levels (blackbody radiation) in = order to=20 entropically dissipate energy. The higher the temperature, the greater = the=20 atomic or molecular motion, and the greater the seeming randomness of = the=20 emission spectrum... except for the effects of pressurization. Keep this = in=20 mind: there is no firm reason why blackbody radiation cannot be = coherent.
 
It is easy to confuse heat and internal energy, and thereby neglect = "internal potential energy" as part of that energy of vibration. The = percentage=20 of internal stored potential energy associated with those atoms = molecules or=20 ions can be varied by confinement. In the case of the kinetic theory, = the=20 empirical basis comes from observed relationships among variables like=20 temperature, pressure, volume, and numbers of particles for gases, and = for the=20 specific heats of gases and solids (considering vibrational modes for=20 solids). This also comes from the experiments of Mayer and Joule = that=20 established heat as a form of energy equivalent to mechanical energy. =
 
But prior to this, I cannot find any evidence or to a situation = where heat=20 (i.e. phonon vibrations) was considered to be capable of being ordered = into=20 coherency, just as light photons are. But that is exactly what is being=20 suggested here. The whole exercise would be nothing more than academic, = if QM=20 effects were not also optimized at this coherency level.
 
The rotational and vibrational kinetic energies, along with the = potential=20 energies associated with vibration, are connected to the net internal = energy of=20 the gas-filled matrix, so that if Celani is correct, and Frank = Grimer is=20 correct then it follows that Beta-atmosphere partial vacua of minus = 22,000=20 atmospheres (approximately pF 7) exists. It is within this exotic = regions,=20 shielded from the external Beta-atmosphere differential pressure of = 22,000=20 atmospheres,  that cold fusion takes place, and the suggestion is = that it=20 will occur robustly when those parameters are optimized for phonon=20 coherency. 
 
If the Tsuchida analysis is correct, then Letts used a frequency = that is=20 way off from optimum, and it is easy to show that the magnetic field he = used of=20 350 Gauss is way too puny. Deuterium would not be firmly affected in = anything=20 less than 10 kilogauss, and that field intensity would also be ideal for = capturing the hypothetical (*e-). There are so many accumulating=20 coincidental facts here that it becomes difficult to ignore the = possibility=20 of an underlying BEC-like coherence. 

But the bottom line is = that in=20 the secondary subsystem, the direct converter, when one forces the decay = of=20 (*e-) into Ps + (e-) then the result is at least one MeV (2 x .511 MeV) = from a=20 reactant which is nearly 2000 times less dense than the = deuterium. So=20 compared to using hydrogen in a fuel cell and getting a few eV per = proton,=20 the difference is seven orders of magnitude; but the real attraction to = this=20 idea, and the reason why I think it is deserving of funding, is that it = presents=20 a route for both higher efficiency and direct conversion, not to mention = some=20 startling new physics.
 
It would either be a paradigm shift or a major disappointment... = but being=20 miniaturized, it would be a major disappointment of a more modest=20 sort....

Jones
------=_NextPart_000_0035_01C4C24D.05068440-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Nov 4 09:13:27 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iA4HDLCJ027787; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 09:13:21 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iA4HDERs027738; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 09:13:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 09:13:14 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002201c4c291$8d557150$6d62d38d@Oleg> From: "Oleg Palchik" To: References: <1dd.2fbde97a.2ebbb952@aol.com> Subject: Re: Manufacturing going to China..off topic Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 12:13:01 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001F_01C4C267.A16C8400" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56339 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01C4C267.A16C8400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Who need scientist and engineers here... Majority of companies are reducing or closing their R&D.=20 Recently I saw on PBS program with one famous investment banker, he = told:"...scientific revolution is over....". I think I agree with him. Scientific revolution is over ....in USA.=20 Frank do not hold your breath regarding CF, you can die from suffocation = :) Oleg ----- Original Message -----=20 From: FZNIDARSIC@aol.com=20 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com=20 Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2004 11:56 AM Subject: Manufacturing going to China..off topic Here in Western PA USA manufacturing plants are closing like mad. = Just this week we lost two, Hedstrom in Bedford, PA and Fisher = Scientific in Indiana, PA. =20 The Fisher production is being relocated to China. =20 15 years ago our steel plants closed due to imnence competition from = Japan. 18 thousand jobs were lost. These jobs have been here for 150 = years. I worked in the steel plants in the 1970s. The workers told me that = Johnstown Steel helped to win wars. The government would never allow it = to=20 close. We would then be dependent on foreign steel; Unacceptable! = Time has told the story. The steel industry is gone. I took a picture = of what is left of the once great Johnstown Plant. http://www.angelfire.com/pa/ParksJohnstown/dome.html We could, however, go to secondary manufacturing and get a lower = paying job. Ross Peroe warned us. He said all that hear a sucking sound as industry left the county. Here is a sample of has happened. Last year Bestform garments went to Mexico. Two years ago Black and Decker bought Emglo. a local compressor = company. and moved the production abroad. E glo stand for M Glosser a company started by immigrants 80 years ago. In one = strike 80 years of building is gone. Three years ago a large Corning Glass Plant in State College moved to = China. I guess they now have enough electrical power to make glass. We thought we could downsize our life again and get a low pay job in = the service industry. Surprise, Walmart is automating checkout. Opps there goes the low pay = option. Greenshan says that the problem is that we don't have enough engineers = and scientists. I am an engineer and there are no jobs. I don't blame = the kids for going into other professions. Can we all be nurses? I don't see the big picture. How to we arrive at greatness by selling = out and downsizing? I returned to college 5 years ago to study computer science. The = professor said. " I see we have a very large class. Blue collar jobs = are a thing of the past. You need to learn this high tech stuff to get the jobs of the future." Ahh, It has proven easier to move these high tech jobs then it was to = move the steel industry. Steel requires infrastructure, roads, power, = water. High tech required only the planting of a satellite dish in the = ground and an office. High tech is going to India. Once China meets a critical mass, with our money, technology, and = plants...why will they need us. They will take the lead with = innovation. They are smart and have a good work ethic. AT that point = will we will follow. Hmm I wonder, How do you plant rice? Bush has his job cut out for him. With industry gone we are now = living off of an increasing national dept. and trade imbalance. How = long can this go on? I hope the DOE comes out with a positive review of cold fusion. We = need something new. =20 Frank Z ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01C4C267.A16C8400 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Who need scientist and engineers here...
Majority of companies are reducing or = closing their=20 R&D.
Recently I saw on PBS program with one = famous=20 investment banker, he told:"...scientific revolution is over....". I = think I=20 agree with him.
Scientific revolution is over ....in = USA.=20
Frank do not hold your breath regarding = CF, you can=20 die from suffocation :)
Oleg
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 FZNIDARSIC@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, November 04, = 2004 11:56=20 AM
Subject: Manufacturing going to = China..off topic

Here in Western PA USA = manufacturing plants are=20 closing like mad.  Just this week we lost two, Hedstrom in = Bedford, PA=20 and Fisher Scientific in Indiana, PA. 

The Fisher = production is=20 being relocated to China. 

15 years ago our steel plants = closed=20 due to imnence competition from Japan.  18 thousand jobs were = lost. =20 These jobs have been here for 150 years.
I worked in the steel = plants in=20 the 1970s.  The workers told me that Johnstown Steel helped to = win=20 wars.  The government would never allow it to
close.  We = would=20 then be dependent on foreign steel;  Unacceptable!   = Time has=20 told the story.  The steel industry is gone. I took a picture of = what is=20 left of the once great Johnstown=20 = Plant.

http://www.angelfire.com/pa/ParksJohnstown/dome.html
We=20 could, however, go to secondary manufacturing and get a lower paying=20 job.  Ross Peroe warned us.  He said all that hear a =20 sucking
sound as industry left the county.

Here is a sample = of has=20 happened.

Last year Bestform garments went to = Mexico.

Two years=20 ago Black and Decker bought  Emglo. a local compressor company. = and moved=20 the production abroad.  E glo stand for
M Glosser a company = started=20 by  immigrants 80 years ago.  In one strike 80 years of = building is=20 gone.

Three years ago a large Corning Glass Plant in State = College=20 moved to China.  I guess they now have enough electrical power to = make=20 glass.

We thought we could downsize our life again and get a = low pay=20 job in the service industry.

Surprise, Walmart is automating=20 checkout.  Opps there goes the low pay option.

Greenshan = says that=20 the problem is that we don't have enough engineers and scientists. I = am an=20 engineer and there are no jobs.  I don't blame the kids for going = into=20 other professions.  Can we all be nurses?

I don't see the = big=20 picture.  How to we arrive at greatness by selling out and=20 downsizing?

I returned to college 5 years ago to study computer = science.  The professor said.  " I see we have a very large = class.=20 Blue collar jobs are a thing of the past.
You need to learn this = high tech=20 stuff to get the jobs of the future."

Ahh,  It has proven = easier=20 to move these high tech jobs then it was to move the steel = industry. =20 Steel requires infrastructure, roads, power, water.  High tech = required=20 only the planting of a satellite dish in the ground and an = office.  High=20 tech is going to India.

Once China meets a critical mass, with = our=20 money, technology, and plants...why will they need us.  They will = take=20 the lead with innovation.  They are smart and have a good work=20 ethic.  AT that point will we will follow.  Hmm I wonder, = How do you=20 plant rice?

Bush has his job cut out for him.  With = industry gone=20 we are now living off of an increasing national dept. and trade=20 imbalance.  How long can this go on?

I hope the DOE comes = out with=20 a positive review of cold fusion.  We need something new. =20

Frank Z ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01C4C267.A16C8400-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Nov 4 10:43:29 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iA4IhMcc021959; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 10:43:22 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iA4IhKH8021942; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 10:43:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 10:43:20 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Standing Bear To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Manufacturing going to China..off topic Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 13:46:46 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 References: <1dd.2fbde97a.2ebbb952@aol.com> <002201c4c291$8d557150$6d62d38d@Oleg> In-Reply-To: <002201c4c291$8d557150$6d62d38d@Oleg> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200411041346.46855.rockcast@earthlink.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56340 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Thursday 04 November 2004 12:13, Oleg Palchik wrote: > Who need scientist and engineers here... > Majority of companies are reducing or closing their R&D. > Recently I saw on PBS program with one famous investment banker, he > told:"...scientific revolution is over....". I think I agree with him. > Scientific revolution is over ....in USA. > Frank do not hold your breath regarding CF, you can die from suffocation :) > Oleg > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: FZNIDARSIC@aol.com > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2004 11:56 AM > Subject: Manufacturing going to China..off topic > > > Here in Western PA USA manufacturing plants are closing like mad. Just > this week we lost two, Hedstrom in Bedford, PA and Fisher Scientific in > Indiana, PA. > > The Fisher production is being relocated to China. > > 15 years ago our steel plants closed due to imnence competition from > Japan. 18 thousand jobs were lost. These jobs have been here for 150 > years. I worked in the steel plants in the 1970s. The workers told me that > Johnstown Steel helped to win wars. The government would never allow it to > close. We would then be dependent on foreign steel; Unacceptable! Time > has told the story. The steel industry is gone. I took a picture of what > is left of the once great Johnstown Plant. > > http://www.angelfire.com/pa/ParksJohnstown/dome.html > > We could, however, go to secondary manufacturing and get a lower paying > job. Ross Peroe warned us. He said all that hear a sucking sound as > industry left the county. > > Here is a sample of has happened. > > Last year Bestform garments went to Mexico. > > Two years ago Black and Decker bought Emglo. a local compressor company. > and moved the production abroad. E glo stand for M Glosser a company > started by immigrants 80 years ago. In one strike 80 years of building is > gone. > > Three years ago a large Corning Glass Plant in State College moved to > China. I guess they now have enough electrical power to make glass. > > We thought we could downsize our life again and get a low pay job in the > service industry. > > Surprise, Walmart is automating checkout. Opps there goes the low pay > option. > > Greenshan says that the problem is that we don't have enough engineers > and scientists. I am an engineer and there are no jobs. I don't blame the > kids for going into other professions. Can we all be nurses? > > I don't see the big picture. How to we arrive at greatness by selling > out and downsizing? > > I returned to college 5 years ago to study computer science. The > professor said. " I see we have a very large class. Blue collar jobs are a > thing of the past. You need to learn this high tech stuff to get the jobs > of the future." > > Ahh, It has proven easier to move these high tech jobs then it was to > move the steel industry. Steel requires infrastructure, roads, power, > water. High tech required only the planting of a satellite dish in the > ground and an office. High tech is going to India. > > Once China meets a critical mass, with our money, technology, and > plants...why will they need us. They will take the lead with innovation. > They are smart and have a good work ethic. AT that point will we will > follow. Hmm I wonder, How do you plant rice? > > Bush has his job cut out for him. With industry gone we are now living > off of an increasing national dept. and trade imbalance. How long can this > go on? > > I hope the DOE comes out with a positive review of cold fusion. We need > something new. > > Frank Z Now Frank I don't know about whether we will keep cold fusion either. You see the way it is being opposed by energy interests in this country now, this will end up being Chinese as well. While we are fighting, the Chinese are studying; soon they will be patenting. We will have or may already have some patents on this as well, but the Chinese will push us out. They will have the 'patents' and the World Trade Association to back them up as a 'developing nation' with 'certain priviledges'. They will also have a huge army and our former industrial base to supply that army. We, on the other hand, will have to fight them buck naked and barefoot inasmuch as our textile and shoe industries are now all Chinese. Even my Doc Martens are now made by the Chinese. All my clothing is made in sweatshops all over the world, some places paying starvation wages even Chinese would'nt work for. Yakov Yeah, and we Russians will be first victims of the Frankenstein's monster you Americans created in China.....that is after they go after Viet-Nam and Thailand for their farm crops. They covered all their arable land with American built factories financed by union givebacks in the mid eighties, so they have to feed those hungry billions somewhere. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Nov 4 11:05:45 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iA4J5ZCJ017955; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 11:05:35 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iA4J5W6F017931; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 11:05:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 11:05:32 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=Tm8LC1PEMjS17V3TmdjC6jKRpolZIaU5zV3uiX9iTIJ6sH+eypAa/DCM/eqqxgEkPwNtK/Jtd73PlHlXSS6sz+qvRBTldcirst/8GYGa30nmErCXVnM08hC2M9zmgQK0XxUSJpIOLaxvPqniss89IoKbLerbZ99NU6jhcRJxk2A= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 12:05:24 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Manufacturing going to China..off topic In-Reply-To: <200411041346.46855.rockcast@earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <1dd.2fbde97a.2ebbb952@aol.com> <002201c4c291$8d557150$6d62d38d@Oleg> <200411041346.46855.rockcast@earthlink.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56341 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: something people miss... the more efficient plants in other countries, japan for instance, actually pay more in regular workers salaries. but they pay about 1/50th the ceo salaries, and about 1/20th the high level admin salaries. and becuase of that, are much more profitable. the closing of our plants is caused by the rich getting richer. On Thu, 4 Nov 2004 13:46:46 -0500, Standing Bear wrote: > On Thursday 04 November 2004 12:13, Oleg Palchik wrote: > > > > Who need scientist and engineers here... > > Majority of companies are reducing or closing their R&D. > > Recently I saw on PBS program with one famous investment banker, he > > told:"...scientific revolution is over....". I think I agree with him. > > Scientific revolution is over ....in USA. > > Frank do not hold your breath regarding CF, you can die from suffocation :) > > Oleg > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: FZNIDARSIC@aol.com > > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > > Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2004 11:56 AM > > Subject: Manufacturing going to China..off topic > > > > > > Here in Western PA USA manufacturing plants are closing like mad. Just > > this week we lost two, Hedstrom in Bedford, PA and Fisher Scientific in > > Indiana, PA. > > > > The Fisher production is being relocated to China. > > > > 15 years ago our steel plants closed due to imnence competition from > > Japan. 18 thousand jobs were lost. These jobs have been here for 150 > > years. I worked in the steel plants in the 1970s. The workers told me that > > Johnstown Steel helped to win wars. The government would never allow it to > > close. We would then be dependent on foreign steel; Unacceptable! Time > > has told the story. The steel industry is gone. I took a picture of what > > is left of the once great Johnstown Plant. > > > > http://www.angelfire.com/pa/ParksJohnstown/dome.html > > > > We could, however, go to secondary manufacturing and get a lower paying > > job. Ross Peroe warned us. He said all that hear a sucking sound as > > industry left the county. > > > > Here is a sample of has happened. > > > > Last year Bestform garments went to Mexico. > > > > Two years ago Black and Decker bought Emglo. a local compressor company. > > and moved the production abroad. E glo stand for M Glosser a company > > started by immigrants 80 years ago. In one strike 80 years of building is > > gone. > > > > Three years ago a large Corning Glass Plant in State College moved to > > China. I guess they now have enough electrical power to make glass. > > > > We thought we could downsize our life again and get a low pay job in the > > service industry. > > > > Surprise, Walmart is automating checkout. Opps there goes the low pay > > option. > > > > Greenshan says that the problem is that we don't have enough engineers > > and scientists. I am an engineer and there are no jobs. I don't blame the > > kids for going into other professions. Can we all be nurses? > > > > I don't see the big picture. How to we arrive at greatness by selling > > out and downsizing? > > > > I returned to college 5 years ago to study computer science. The > > professor said. " I see we have a very large class. Blue collar jobs are a > > thing of the past. You need to learn this high tech stuff to get the jobs > > of the future." > > > > Ahh, It has proven easier to move these high tech jobs then it was to > > move the steel industry. Steel requires infrastructure, roads, power, > > water. High tech required only the planting of a satellite dish in the > > ground and an office. High tech is going to India. > > > > Once China meets a critical mass, with our money, technology, and > > plants...why will they need us. They will take the lead with innovation. > > They are smart and have a good work ethic. AT that point will we will > > follow. Hmm I wonder, How do you plant rice? > > > > Bush has his job cut out for him. With industry gone we are now living > > off of an increasing national dept. and trade imbalance. How long can this > > go on? > > > > I hope the DOE comes out with a positive review of cold fusion. We need > > something new. > > > > Frank Z > > Now Frank I don't know about whether we will keep cold fusion either. You > see the way it is being opposed by energy interests in this country now, > this will end up being Chinese as well. While we are fighting, the Chinese > are studying; soon they will be patenting. We will have or may already have > some patents on this as well, but the Chinese will push us out. They will > have the 'patents' and the World Trade Association to back them up as a > 'developing nation' with 'certain priviledges'. They will also have a huge > army and our former industrial base to supply that army. > We, on the other hand, will have to fight them buck naked and barefoot > inasmuch as our textile and shoe industries are now all Chinese. Even my Doc > Martens are now made by the Chinese. All my clothing is made in sweatshops > all over the world, some places paying starvation wages even Chinese would'nt > work for. > > Yakov > > Yeah, and we Russians will be first victims of the Frankenstein's monster > you Americans created in China.....that is after they go after Viet-Nam > and Thailand for their farm crops. They covered all their arable land with > American built factories financed by union givebacks in the mid eighties, so > they have to feed those hungry billions somewhere. > > -- Fairy tales are more than true: not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten. -G.K. Chesterton From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Nov 4 12:30:28 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iA4KUNCJ023819; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 12:30:23 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iA4KULwL023808; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 12:30:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 12:30:21 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: FZNIDARSIC@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 15:30:11 EST Subject: good article of what is happening to our scinece professionals To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_d.3667f343.2ebbeb53_boundary" X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6808 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56342 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --part1_d.3667f343.2ebbeb53_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://www.technologyreview.com/articles/04/05/wo_florman051904.asp?p=1 Frank Znidarsic --part1_d.3667f343.2ebbeb53_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable http://www.technologyrevi= ew.com/articles/04/05/wo_florman051904.asp?p=3D1

Frank Znidarsic --part1_d.3667f343.2ebbeb53_boundary-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Nov 4 13:50:24 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iA4LoGCJ032053; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 13:50:16 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iA4LoEUX032044; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 13:50:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 13:50:14 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: <67c7f909-98a7-44c4-ab89-aa00fd5b4ff4> Message-ID: <0c8001c4c2b8$3bf046b0$335accd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <1dd.2fbde97a.2ebbb952@aol.com> <002201c4c291$8d557150$6d62d38d@Oleg> Subject: Re: Manufacturing going to China..off topic Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 16:49:16 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0C7C_01C4C28E.38B7CA10" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56343 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0C7C_01C4C28E.38B7CA10 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm safely retired after a long and satisfying engineering career in a = good US company (RCA), which was bought by a bigger fish (GE) and whose = parts are now scattered to the winds. The RCA and GE brand names in = consumer electronics are owned by Thompson of France. Important parts of = RCA's former defense business are owned by Lockheed Martin (the Aegis = franchise); NBC is the only piece GE kept. I joined RCA near the peak of = its glory and stayed into its sunset. =20 When I graduated from college in Iowa it was assumed I'd seek my = fortunes elsewhere, as did my chemical engineering brother. Once the = textile industry was king in New England, but lower expectaions for = wages took it into the southeast US. A while back a woman in the = southeast on TV lamented the loss of the textile plant she worked in to = China. The first was OK, sort of, because it was still "US", the latter = is lamented because it is "THEM".=20 Because the cost of garments stayed relatively low, these moves = increased the effective standard of living of those with jobs in the US. = When you go shop, do you shop for price? If you do, you contribute to = the pressure to move manufacturing, particularly labor intensive = manufacturing, to countries where the workers do not expect so much.=20 There has been a massive failure of US manufactureres to invest in = efficient design and manufacturing technology until forced by overseas = competition, even if that technology originated in the US. The saga of = Edwards Deming is only part of that story. US industries are catching = on, and can be world class by applying certain lessons, but there is no = longer any magic and any nation with the will can do likewise; witness = Japan, Taiwan and S. Korea, each lacking in natural resources but with = intellectual prowess and determination.=20 Remember, though, that efficient manufacturing shifts the need toward = skill and away from massive brawn.=20 GE in a multinational company who recently opened major laboratories in = China and Japan, each intended to become a center of excellence, drawing = on the intellectual capital of those very old civilizations; China was = once a Great Power, well advanced in technology beyond Europe by = hundreds or thousands of years. China can become an immense market for = US and European companies, with earnings of workers there going into = establishing a middle class and tempering the autocratic ambitions of a = land-based tradition. Profits from these companies benefit stockholders = in the US and elsewhere. Do not forget that if you own insurance, a = mutural fund, or a pension plan, you are participating in the ownership = of US and foreign companies; some 50% of US families are stockholder in = one form or another.=20 There is a cycle in the fortunes of families and nations, as Toynbee = noted decades ago. Those who fail to understand and meet those = challenges are overtaken by leaner and hungrier peoples.=20 The decision to oursource by a management is not always easy. While = there is no US-owned TV company any more, many foreign-brand TVs are = built in the US with US labor. Same with automobiles. Sometimes work is = outsourced for reasons X and insourced again for reasons Y which are too = complex to detail here.=20 There is no easy or comfortable answer to this flux. Some prosper, some = get hurt. It is not new. One obstacle to the formation of the early = confederacy was tariffs between colonies; it still plagues the = consolidation of the European Union.=20 Someone defined "fair" as "someone else pays".=20 The consumer savings rate in the US is very low compared to other = nations. We *will pay* for this indulgence sooner or later. The finger = of greed points in every direction, to the retailer asking too much and = the customer paying too little.=20 The last 50 years in the US have been a golden age without parallel in = world history, even including the civil strife. It is a deep mistake to = think this can go on forever, or that all is bleak ahead. The bright = hopes are the energy technologies, LENR, BLP, and hopefully a magic toy = from Mark Goldes' hat.=20 Mike Carrell ------=_NextPart_000_0C7C_01C4C28E.38B7CA10 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I'm safely retired after a long and = satisfying=20 engineering career in a good US company (RCA), which was bought by a = bigger fish=20 (GE) and whose parts are now scattered to the winds. The RCA and GE = brand names=20 in consumer electronics are owned by Thompson of France. Important parts = of=20 RCA's former defense business are owned by Lockheed Martin (the Aegis=20 franchise); NBC is the only piece GE kept. I joined RCA near the peak of = its=20 glory and stayed into its sunset.  
 
When I graduated from college in Iowa = it was=20 assumed I'd seek my fortunes elsewhere, as did my chemical engineering = brother.=20 Once the textile industry was king in New England, but lower expectaions = for=20 wages took it into the southeast US. A while back a woman in the = southeast on TV=20 lamented the loss of the textile plant she worked in to China. The first = was OK,=20 sort of, because it was still "US", the latter is lamented because it is = "THEM".=20
 
Because the cost of garments stayed = relatively low,=20 these  moves increased the effective standard of living of those = with jobs=20 in the US. When you go shop, do you shop for price? If you do, you = contribute to=20 the pressure to move manufacturing, particularly labor intensive = manufacturing,=20 to countries where the workers do not expect so much.
 
There has been a massive failure of US=20 manufactureres to invest in efficient design and manufacturing = technology until=20 forced by overseas competition, even if that technology originated in = the US.=20 The saga of Edwards Deming is only part of that story. US industries are = catching  on, and can be world class by applying certain lessons, = but there=20 is no longer any magic and any nation with the will can do likewise; = witness=20 Japan, Taiwan and S. Korea, each lacking in natural resources but = with=20 intellectual prowess and determination.
 
Remember, though, that efficient = manufacturing=20 shifts the need toward skill and away from massive brawn.
 
GE in a multinational company who = recently opened=20 major laboratories in China and Japan, each intended to become a center = of=20 excellence, drawing on the intellectual capital of those very old = civilizations;=20 China was once a Great Power, well advanced in technology beyond Europe = by=20 hundreds or thousands of years. China can become an immense market for = US and=20 European companies, with earnings of workers there going into = establishing a=20 middle class and tempering the autocratic ambitions of a land-based = tradition.=20 Profits from these companies benefit stockholders in the US and = elsewhere. Do=20 not forget that if you own insurance, a mutural fund, or a pension plan, = you are=20 participating in the ownership of US and foreign companies; some 50% of = US=20 families are stockholder in one form or another.
 
There is a cycle in the fortunes of = families and=20 nations, as Toynbee noted decades ago. Those who fail to understand and = meet=20 those challenges are overtaken by leaner and hungrier peoples. =
 
The decision to oursource by a = management is not=20 always easy. While there is no US-owned TV company any more, many = foreign-brand=20 TVs are built in the US with US labor. Same with automobiles. Sometimes = work is=20 outsourced for reasons X and insourced again for reasons Y which are too = complex=20 to detail here.
 
There is no easy or comfortable answer = to this=20 flux. Some prosper, some get hurt. It is not new. One obstacle to the = formation=20 of the early confederacy was tariffs between colonies; it still plagues = the=20 consolidation of the European Union.
 
Someone defined "fair" as "someone else = pays".=20
 
The consumer savings rate in the US is = very low=20 compared to other nations. We *will pay* for this indulgence sooner or = later.=20 The finger of greed points in every direction, to the retailer asking = too much=20 and the customer paying too little.
 
The last 50 years in the US have been a = golden age=20 without parallel in world history, even including the civil strife. It = is a deep=20 mistake to think this can go on forever, or that all is bleak ahead. The = bright=20 hopes are the energy technologies, LENR, BLP, and hopefully a magic toy = from=20 Mark Goldes' hat.
 
Mike Carrell
------=_NextPart_000_0C7C_01C4C28E.38B7CA10-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Nov 4 14:08:35 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iA4M8Ncc015106; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 14:08:29 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iA4M8Mte015090; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 14:08:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 14:08:22 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 11:40:06 -0600 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: F E machine fraud unmasked Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1161; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56344 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: had what he said was a F E machine. What he was doing was iraidiating area with microwave radiation. On his cue, can you feel the wires getting hot, his wife would throw the switch and walla, the wires would get hot. His hoax was so cleaver that it cost $14,000 to unmask it. The hoaxer is reported to be a wiccian, so his punishment awaits him From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Nov 4 17:59:47 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iA51xdCJ007997; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 17:59:39 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iA51xHgN007881; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 17:59:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 17:59:17 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 19:58:53 -0600 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: radiation levels in Washington DC Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1161; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56345 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: According to Steve Milloy of www.junkscience.com , the levels of radiation in the federal capitol are 65 times higher than EPA limits. I know that granite in particular has high radiation levels, but 65 times. I wonder where Milloy comes down on LENR. http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,21015,00.html From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Nov 4 19:21:43 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iA53LVCJ007187; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 19:21:31 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iA53LSgi007161; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 19:21:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 19:21:28 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000e01c4c2e6$85520c70$0100007f@xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Manufacturing going going --gone !! Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 21:20:40 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000A_01C4C2B4.22C7FC90"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=4.0 tests=HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56346 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C4C2B4.22C7FC90 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000B_01C4C2B4.22C98330" ------=_NextPart_001_000B_01C4C2B4.22C98330 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankInteresting the amount of response to Z post. As a manufacturer of = products for industry, we are painfully aware of the problems we face. = We can handle the marketplace and competition. We have no defense = against Congress. We watched the US Congress pass a $ 132 billion " tax relief " bill this = month that included assistance to Home Depot for the purposes of = importing Chinese ceiling fans duty and tax free. The reason given was = to be " competitive". What? In reality, the 132 billion represented the added cost of this years = nationwide election process. The " lobbyists" nightmare in the = individual States and Washington have brought the political process to = absolute moral bankruptcy. Anything is for sale at a price. In Texas, = Enron execs are being jailed for what they learned from watching = Congress.. funny, they didn't see anything wrong with their tactics, = after all, Congress, the banks and wall street do it legally. Congress has permitted the nations base economic machine to be = destroyed by accepting money from anybody with cash. This is economic = suicide. We listened to the arguments for " fair trade" and the wonderful world = of Oz it promises where the nation's wholesalers import product at $ = 1,00 per unit and market it for $ 6.00 . The US manufacturer can compete = at the $ 6.00 retail level price but not with tax advantages being = passed out to importers for contributions to political campaigns of US = elected officials. The Wizard has us believing we are paying "lower" prices because the = products are imported.. but have you noticed the price go down ? Not = really , they went down some years ago sufficent to destroy the US = manufacturer and now they are up. WalMart led the trend. Meanwhile, the US Congress spends $ 500 billion more than it takes in in = taxes and the nation imports $ 500 billion more in goods than it = exports. The dollar has lost 50% of its value in four years on the world = market as demonstrated by the price of gold, the ultimate equalizer. We = have an enemy in our camp and its us. Richard =20 ------=_NextPart_001_000B_01C4C2B4.22C98330 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Interesting the amount of response to Z post. As a manufacturer of = products=20 for industry, we are painfully aware of the problems we face. We can = handle the=20 marketplace and competition. We have no defense against Congress.
 
We watched the US Congress pass a $ 132 billion " tax relief " bill = this=20 month that included assistance to Home Depot for the purposes of = importing=20 Chinese ceiling fans duty and tax free. The reason given was to be "=20 competitive". What?
In reality, the 132 billion represented the added cost of this = years=20 nationwide election process. The " lobbyists" nightmare in the = individual States=20 and Washington have brought the political process to absolute moral = bankruptcy.  Anything is for sale at a price.   In Texas, = Enron=20 execs are being jailed for what they learned  from watching = Congress..=20 funny, they didn't see anything wrong with their tactics, after all, = Congress,=20 the banks and wall street do it legally.
Congress has permitted the nations  base economic machine = to be=20 destroyed by accepting money from anybody with cash. This is economic=20 suicide.
 
We listened to the arguments for " fair trade" and the wonderful = world of=20 Oz it promises where the nation's wholesalers import product at = $ 1,00=20 per unit and market it for $ 6.00 . The US manufacturer can compete at = the $=20 6.00 retail level price but not with tax advantages being passed out to=20 importers for contributions to political campaigns of US elected=20 officials.
 
The Wizard has us believing we are paying "lower" prices because = the=20 products are imported.. but have you noticed the price go down ? Not = really ,=20 they went down some years ago sufficent to destroy the  US=20 manufacturer and now they are up. WalMart led the trend.
Meanwhile, the US Congress spends $ 500 billion more than it takes = in in=20 taxes and the nation imports $ 500 billion more in goods than it = exports. The=20 dollar has lost 50% of its value in four years on the world market as=20 demonstrated by the price of gold, the ultimate equalizer. We have an = enemy in=20 our camp and its us.
 
Richard
 
 
 

 

------=_NextPart_001_000B_01C4C2B4.22C98330-- ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C4C2B4.22C7FC90 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000901c4c2e6$6d563790$0100007f@xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C4C2B4.22C7FC90-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Nov 4 19:43:50 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iA53hfCJ013798; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 19:43:42 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iA53hehf013784; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 19:43:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 19:43:40 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <00be01c4c2e9$a8160380$0200a8c0@Craig> From: "SnowDog" To: References: <000e01c4c2e6$85520c70$0100007f@xptower> Subject: Re: Manufacturing going going --gone !! Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 21:43:47 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56347 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: BlankPlease no politics. Craig (Houston) From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Nov 4 19:57:54 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iA53vjCJ018401; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 19:57:46 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iA53viEV018384; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 19:57:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 19:57:44 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000a01c4c2eb$94fdca60$df037841@xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: References: <000e01c4c2e6$85520c70$0100007f@xptower> <00be01c4c2e9$a8160380$0200a8c0@Craig> Subject: Re: Manufacturing going going --gone !! Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 21:57:33 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=4.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56348 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I try to remain apolitical in my comments. Richard ----- Original Message ----- From: "SnowDog" To: Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2004 9:43 PM Subject: Re: Manufacturing going going --gone !! > BlankPlease no politics. > > Craig (Houston) > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Nov 4 22:44:43 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iA56icCJ020426; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 22:44:38 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iA56iM7n020312; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 22:44:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 22:44:22 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <000e01c4c2e6$85520c70$0100007f@xptower> References: <000e01c4c2e6$85520c70$0100007f@xptower> Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 00:43:47 -0600 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: Manufacturing going going --gone !! Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1161; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56349 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Richard posted; > >The Wizard has us believing we are paying "lower" I like your use of the name Wizard, as in Wizard of Oz. The book is said to be a vailed expose of Free Masonry, >prices because the products are imported.. but have you noticed the >price go down ? Not really , they went down some years ago sufficent >to destroy the US manufacturer and now they are up. WalMart led the >trend. I don't know Richard, prices on most things are still pretty good. OTOH, If the price of oil goes to $100 per barrel, things will get tough. >Meanwhile, the US Congress spends $ 500 billion more than it takes >in in taxes and the nation imports $ 500 billion more in goods than >it exports. The dollar has lost 50% of its value in four years on >the world market as demonstrated by the price of gold, the ultimate >equalizer. We have an enemy in our camp and its us. There are a lot of patriotic Americans, but there are lots of morons who believe that it is the government's job to take care of them. I think that the real enemy within are the liberals who want to destroy our G-d given freedoms. Michael Savage, of the Savage Nation calls them the Red Diaper Doper Babies, it's what results when liberals who IMHO suffer from a form of insanity, start smoking marijuana. The only thing that's worse than insane, is insane and stupid. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Nov 5 00:48:02 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iA58lsCJ029796; Fri, 5 Nov 2004 00:47:54 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iA58lqkk029780; Fri, 5 Nov 2004 00:47:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 00:47:52 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20041105084803.00697d60@pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk@pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2004 08:48:03 +0000 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: RE: Dimensions of mass Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56350 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: It is interesting to find that the definition of acceleration is lopsided. This leads to acceleration being given dimensions which are biased, i.e. [L]/[T]^2 You can see this for yourselves by going though the process of defining acceleration's reciprocal starting with the inverse of velocity, namely, change in time per unit length. The only unbiased way to treat acceleration and its inverse democratically is to use [L].[L]/[T].[T] = [L]/[T].[L]/[T] or velocity squared. What a mess. It's not just Mass that's been ridden over roughshod. Simone Weil was right. Grimer From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Nov 5 05:28:38 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iA5DSVCJ006463; Fri, 5 Nov 2004 05:28:31 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iA5DSPP6006430; Fri, 5 Nov 2004 05:28:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 05:28:25 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000e01c4c33b$513f3480$ec027841@xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: References: <2.2.32.20041105084803.00697d60@pop.freeserve.net> Subject: Re: Dimensions of mass Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 07:27:41 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=4.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56351 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Starting a large electric motor across the line can be thought provoking if you are observant. The motor seems to start, then attempt to rotate in reverse for an instant as it begans its speed climb to rated rpm. The rate of acceleration " wobbles". I have never tried to track the actual rate of acceleration vs time with recording instruments, but the vibration monitor can make one wonder if mass can be visualized as "elastic". Richard ----- Original Message ----- From: "Grimer" To: Sent: Friday, November 05, 2004 2:48 AM Subject: RE: Dimensions of mass > It is interesting to find that the definition of > acceleration is lopsided. This leads to acceleration > being given dimensions which are biased, > i.e. [L]/[T]^2 > > You can see this for yourselves by going though the > process of defining acceleration's reciprocal starting > with the inverse of velocity, namely, change in time > per unit length. > > The only unbiased way to treat acceleration and its > inverse democratically is to use > [L].[L]/[T].[T] = [L]/[T].[L]/[T] or velocity squared. > > What a mess. It's not just Mass that's been ridden over > roughshod. Simone Weil was right. > > Grimer > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Nov 5 08:20:35 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iA5GKLCJ026020; Fri, 5 Nov 2004 08:20:22 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iA5GKKNR026008; Fri, 5 Nov 2004 08:20:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 08:20:20 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20041105161636.308.qmail@web54501.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 08:16:36 -0800 (PST) From: Adam Cox Subject: RE: Dimensions of mass To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.20041105084803.00697d60@pop.freeserve.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-311481876-1099671396=:94476" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56352 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-311481876-1099671396=:94476 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Bias? Democracy? We are talking about physics right? Velocity = distance / time = change in position / time = dx/t Acceleration = change in velocity / time = dv/t = dx/t/t Velocity is how far an object moves in a given amount of time. The inverse would be how much time it takes to go a given distance. Inverse velocity (v^-1) = time / distance = dt/x To arrive at Acceleration you take the derivative of the Velocity formula. Taking the derivative of the formula for Inverse velocity does not get you the formula for Inverse Acceleration. Of course the definition of acceleration is lopsided. It is the application of change over time to a formula which already contains that term. You can't just look at the terms and say this one should be treated the same as the other one, you have to remember what the terms stand for and how they could logically be used. Sometimes you have to go back to the basics. Grimer wrote: It is interesting to find that the definition of acceleration is lopsided. This leads to acceleration being given dimensions which are biased, i.e. [L]/[T]^2 You can see this for yourselves by going though the process of defining acceleration's reciprocal starting with the inverse of velocity, namely, change in time per unit length. The only unbiased way to treat acceleration and its inverse democratically is to use [L].[L]/[T].[T] = [L]/[T].[L]/[T] or velocity squared. What a mess. It's not just Mass that's been ridden over roughshod. Simone Weil was right. Grimer Merlyn Magickal Engineer and Technical Metaphysicist --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com/a --0-311481876-1099671396=:94476 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Bias?
Democracy?
We are talking about physics right?
 
Velocity = distance / time = change in position / time = dx/t
Acceleration = change in velocity / time = dv/t = dx/t/t
 
Velocity is how far an object moves in a given amount of time.  The inverse would be how much time it takes to go a given distance. 

Inverse velocity (v^-1) = time / distance = dt/x
 
To arrive at Acceleration you take the derivative of the Velocity formula.  Taking the derivative of the formula for Inverse velocity does not get you the formula for Inverse Acceleration.
 
Of course the definition of acceleration is lopsided.  It is the application of change over time to a formula which already contains that term.
 
You can't just look at the terms and say this one should be treated the same as the other one, you have to remember what the terms stand for and how they could logically be used.
 
Sometimes you have to go back to the basics.
 

Grimer <f.grimer@grimer2.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
It is interesting to find that the definition of
acceleration is lopsided. This leads to acceleration
being given dimensions which are biased,
i.e. [L]/[T]^2

You can see this for yourselves by going though the
process of defining acceleration's reciprocal starting
with the inverse of velocity, namely, change in time
per unit length.

The only unbiased way to treat acceleration and its
inverse democratically is to use
[L].[L]/[T].[T] = [L]/[T].[L]/[T] or velocity squared.

What a mess. It's not just Mass that's been ridden over
roughshod. Simone Weil was right.

Grimer



Merlyn
Magickal Engineer and Technical Metaphysicist

Do you Yahoo!?
Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From: "Jones Beene" To: Subject: The Composite Fermion Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 08:47:42 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0029_01C4C314.1D0BEEA0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56353 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0029_01C4C314.1D0BEEA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jain is "edging up" to the idea of electronium, but he is not quite = there yet: http://www.phys.psu.edu/~jain/cf_web.jpg =20 According to Jain: "Composite fermions are a new class of fermions = discovered in condensed matter physics. A composite fermion is the bound = state of an electron and an even number of quantized vortices (often = thought of as an electron carrying an even number of magnetic flux = quanta). When a two-dimensional electron system is exposed to a strong = transverse magnetic field, electrons minimize their interaction energy = by capturing an even number of quantized vortices to transform into = composite fermions." In the model of electronium which Frederick Sparber and myself are = trying to flesh-in, positronium could supply Jain's strong transverse = magnetic field, but unlike his concept, we see the process beginning = with two electrons and one positron (IOW the "even number" is 1/2 of the = positron's quantized vortex, and Jain is "off" considerably by starting = at one instead of 1/2 and especially by totally neglecting the = antiparticle. Some other tidbits from Jain "Composite fermions were originally = predicted theoretically to explain the remarkable phenomenon of the = "fractional quantum Hall effect" (FQHE), but are now known to describe a = superstructure that encompasses other phenomena as well." Indeed. "Since its inception, the composite fermion concept has been critically = examined through a large number of tests, within and beyond the FQHE, = which have established a close correspondence between the reality and = the composite fermion theory." If Fred and I are correct, then Jain did not run the most important test = - the one which would describe and pinpoint the bound lepton triad = (*e-). "It is experimentally established that composite fermions fill a fermi = sea (the composite-fermion fermi sea)" YES. Half-right. This is apparently the critical juncture where Jain = falls short. He considerers the "Fermi Sea" but fails to see that it = connects across a short interface directly into the "Dirac sea"... =20 IOW Jain's journey is reminiscent of Cristobal Colon sailing into the = Isthmus of Panama (which area once bore his name as well until we = usurped it too - just like his name) but not realizing that just a few = miles away was an even more imposing ocean. Jones Can you believe the arrogance of the Anglos to actually change the = spelling and total sound of a great explorer's name just because he was = from another (lesser?) culture, or was it supposedly because it wasn't = all that easy to pronounce (or maybe they didn't like the 'grave' = implications of "not invented here"... or maybe they thought it sounded = too "internal" ) ? Not that we can't pronounce cologne, but all of this is a racial = hegemony rant more appropriate for a later time...... ------=_NextPart_000_0029_01C4C314.1D0BEEA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Jain is "edging up" to the idea of electronium, but he is not quite = there=20 yet:
 
http://www.phys.psu.edu= /~jain/cf_web.jpg

 
According to Jain: "Composite fermions are a new = class of=20 fermions discovered in condensed matter physics. A composite fermion is = the=20 bound state of an electron and an even number of quantized vortices = (often=20 thought of as an electron carrying an even number of magnetic flux=20 quanta).  When a two-dimensional electron system is exposed to a = strong=20 transverse magnetic field, electrons minimize their interaction energy = by=20 capturing an even number of quantized vortices to transform into = composite=20 fermions."
 
In the model of electronium which Frederick Sparber and myself are = trying=20 to flesh-in, positronium could supply Jain's strong transverse magnetic = field,=20 but unlike his concept, we see the process beginning with two electrons = and one=20 positron (IOW the "even number" is 1/2 of the positron's quantized = vortex, and=20 Jain is "off" considerably by starting at one instead of 1/2 and = especially by=20 totally neglecting the antiparticle.
 
Some other tidbits from Jain "Composite fermions were = originally=20 predicted theoretically to explain the remarkable phenomenon of the = "fractional=20 quantum Hall effect" (FQHE), but are now known to describe a = superstructure that=20 encompasses other phenomena as well."
 
Indeed.
 
"Since its inception, the composite fermion concept has been = critically=20 examined through a large number of tests, within and beyond the FQHE, = which have=20 established a close correspondence between the reality and the composite = fermion=20 theory."
 
If Fred and I are correct, then Jain did not run the most important = test -=20 the one which would describe and pinpoint the bound lepton triad=20 (*e-).
 
"It is experimentally established that composite fermions fill a = fermi sea=20 (the composite-fermion fermi sea)"
 
YES. Half-right. This is apparently the critical juncture where = Jain falls=20 short. He considerers the "Fermi Sea" but fails to see that it = connects=20 across a short interface directly into the "Dirac sea"...
 
IOW Jain's journey is reminiscent of Cristobal Colon sailing = into the=20 Isthmus of Panama (which area once bore his name as well until = we=20 usurped it too - just like his name) but not realizing that just a = few=20 miles away was an even more imposing ocean.
 
Jones
 
Can you believe the arrogance of the Anglos to actually change the = spelling=20 and total sound of a great explorer's name just because he was from = another=20 (lesser?) culture, or was it supposedly because it wasn't all that easy = to=20 pronounce (or maybe they didn't like the 'grave' implications of "not = invented=20 here"... or maybe they thought it sounded too "internal" ) ?
 
Not that we can't pronounce cologne, but all of this is a racial = hegemony=20 rant more appropriate for a later time......
------=_NextPart_000_0029_01C4C314.1D0BEEA0-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Nov 5 09:17:03 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iA5HGxCJ021231; Fri, 5 Nov 2004 09:16:59 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iA5HGv7A021224; Fri, 5 Nov 2004 09:16:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 09:16:57 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <410-220041155161550570@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Zinc Conduction Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 10:15:50 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9408d8372055c9610f5ddfc10de47295a43350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.162.171 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56354 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Will a zinc rod carrying a current attract or repel a copper rod carrying a current in the opposite direction?? "In zinc however, conduction is dominated by the motion of positive charge carriers. Electrons in zinc that are excited from the valence band leave holes, which are vacancies (i.e., unfilled levels) that behave like positive charge carriers. The motion of these holes accounts for most of the conduction of electricity in zinc." Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

Will a zinc rod carrying a current attract or repel a copper rod carrying a current in
the opposite direction??
 
"In zinc however, conduction is dominated by the motion of positive charge carriers. Electrons in zinc that are excited from the valence band leave holes, which are vacancies (i.e., unfilled levels) that behave like positive charge carriers. The motion of these holes accounts for most of the conduction of electricity in zinc."
 
Frederick
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Nov 5 09:19:00 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iA5HIucc008251; Fri, 5 Nov 2004 09:18:56 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iA5HIsJi008233; Fri, 5 Nov 2004 09:18:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 09:18:54 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20041105171859.0068e380@pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk@pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2004 17:18:59 +0000 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: RE: Dimensions of mass Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id iA5HIlcc008190 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56355 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Savvy is blazing away developing the discovery that Mass is merely a reciprocal velocity in 1, 2 or 3 dimensions. http://blazelabs.com/pics/universe.gif This latest .gif conveys the hierachical idea rather nicely. Cheers Grimer -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- sav·vy ( P ) Pronunciation Informal adj. sav·vi·er, sav·vi·est Well informed and perceptive; shrewd: savvy Washington insiders. n. Practical understanding or shrewdness: a banker known for financial savvy. tr. & intr.v. sav·vied, (svd) sav·vy·ing, sav·vies (svz) To understand; comprehend. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- [From Spanish sabe (usted), (you) know, from saber, to know, from Old Spanish, from Vulgar Latin *sapre, from Latin sapere, to be wise. See sep- in Indo-European Roots.] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Nov 5 09:42:06 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iA5Hg0CJ031872; Fri, 5 Nov 2004 09:42:00 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iA5HftnJ031820; Fri, 5 Nov 2004 09:41:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 09:41:55 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20041105174201.006a6478@pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk@pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2004 17:42:01 +0000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: RE: Dimensions of mass Resent-Message-ID: <4-bMUD.A.HxH.jt7iBB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56356 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 08:16 am 05-11-04 -0800, you wrote: >Sometimes you have to go back to the basics. Indeed you do Merlyn. Indeed you do. 8-) And I'm sad if you are suffering cognitive dissonance. Cheers Frank ============================ et dum seminat aliud cecidit circa viam et venerunt volucres et comederunt illud ============================ From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Nov 5 09:46:52 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iA5Hkdcc018094; Fri, 5 Nov 2004 09:46:43 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iA5HkdY2018085; Fri, 5 Nov 2004 09:46:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 09:46:39 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner@mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 08:52:52 -0900 To: "vortex-l" From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Zinc Conduction Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56357 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:15 AM 11/5/4, Frederick Sparber wrote: >Will a zinc rod carrying a current attract or repel a copper rod carrying >a current in >the opposite direction?? Repel Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Nov 5 10:02:52 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iA5I2jcc027383; Fri, 5 Nov 2004 10:02:45 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iA5I2gcq027351; Fri, 5 Nov 2004 10:02:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 10:02:42 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <410-22004115517133770@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Positron- Electron Antimagnetism-Magnetism Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 11:01:33 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940328a669d3f0c55871af25b21c402267f350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.162.171 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56358 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII The 6.68e11Tesla magnetic field in the electron,and positron "current disk or loop" (R = 2.82e-15 meters) falls off to 4.2e9 Tesla at 1.5e-14 meters out on the loop axis. At 1.5e-14 meters separation ( r ) the repulsive Electrostatic force F = kq^2/r^2 = 1.0 newton, or the same amount of attractive Electrostatic force for the electron-positron. http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/magnetic/curloo.html OTOH, at the ground-state radius (5.29e-11 meters) of an electron in hydrogen it seems as if there is a repelling "Antimagnetic" force balancing out the attractive electric force between the proton and the electron. This also seems to be a reason for the brief existence of Positronium ( Ps) before interaction of the identical radius "disks or current loops" annihilate back into photons. This suggests that positive particles have an antimagnetic field that repels the magnetic field of negative particles, and raises some interesting possibilities to ponder. :-) Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

The 6.68e11Tesla magnetic field in the electron,and positron "current disk or loop"
(R = 2.82e-15 meters) falls off to 4.2e9 Tesla at 1.5e-14 meters out on the loop axis.
 
At 1.5e-14 meters separation ( r ) the repulsive Electrostatic force F = kq^2/r^2 = 1.0 newton,
or  the same amount of attractive Electrostatic force for the electron-positron.
 
 
OTOH, at  the ground-state radius (5.29e-11 meters) of an electron in hydrogen it seems
as if there is a repelling "Antimagnetic" force balancing out the attractive electric force
between the proton and the electron.
 
This also seems to be a reason for the brief existence of Positronium ( Ps) before
interaction of the identical radius "disks or current loops" annihilate back into photons. 
 
This suggests that positive particles have an antimagnetic field that repels the magnetic
field of negative particles, and raises some interesting possibilities to ponder. :-)
 
Frederick
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Nov 5 10:15:12 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iA5IF3cc032546; Fri, 5 Nov 2004 10:15:04 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iA5IF28Q032530; Fri, 5 Nov 2004 10:15:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 10:15:02 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <410-220041155171353670@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Positron- Electron Antimagnetism-Magnetism Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 11:13:53 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9408ea4061d315a1ed5743386fac2c7944c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.162.171 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56359 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Oops. I = 3000 amperes = q*c/2(pi)R The 6.68e11Tesla magnetic field in the electron,and positron "current disk or loop" (R = 2.82e-15 meters) falls off to 4.2e9 Tesla at 1.5e-14 meters out on the loop axis. At 1.5e-14 meters separation ( r ) the repulsive Electrostatic force F = kq^2/r^2 = 1.0 newton, or the same amount of attractive Electrostatic force for the electron-positron. http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/magnetic/curloo.html OTOH, at the ground-state radius (5.29e-11 meters) of an electron in hydrogen it seems as if there is a repelling "Antimagnetic" force balancing out the attractive electric force between the proton and the electron. This also seems to be a reason for the brief existence of Positronium ( Ps) before interaction of the identical radius "disks or current loops" annihilate back into photons. This suggests that positive particles have an antimagnetic field that repels the magnetic field of negative particles, and raises some interesting possibilities to ponder. :-) Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

Oops.  I = 3000 amperes  = q*c/2(pi)R
 
The 6.68e11Tesla magnetic field in the electron,and positron "current disk or loop"
(R = 2.82e-15 meters) falls off to 4.2e9 Tesla at 1.5e-14 meters out on the loop axis.
 
At 1.5e-14 meters separation ( r ) the repulsive Electrostatic force F = kq^2/r^2 = 1.0 newton,
or  the same amount of attractive Electrostatic force for the electron-positron.
 
 
OTOH, at  the ground-state radius (5.29e-11 meters) of an electron in hydrogen it seems
as if there is a repelling "Antimagnetic" force balancing out the attractive electric force
between the proton and the electron.
 
This also seems to be a reason for the brief existence of Positronium ( Ps) before
interaction of the identical radius "disks or current loops" annihilate back into photons. 
 
This suggests that positive particles have an antimagnetic field that repels the magnetic
field of negative particles, and raises some interesting possibilities to ponder. :-)
 
Frederick
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Nov 5 11:03:32 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iA5J3Kcc023509; Fri, 5 Nov 2004 11:03:24 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iA5J3Jt1023477; Fri, 5 Nov 2004 11:03:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 11:03:19 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <418BCE93.8030402@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2004 14:03:47 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Zinc Conduction Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56360 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frederick Sparber wrote: > Will a zinc rod carrying a current attract or repel a copper rod > carrying a current in > the opposite direction?? > > "In zinc however, conduction is dominated by the motion of positive > charge carriers. Electrons in zinc that are excited from the valence > band leave holes, which are vacancies (i.e., unfilled levels) that > behave like positive charge carriers. The motion of these holes > accounts for most of the conduction of electricity in zinc." I though hole flow and electron flow were always equivalent. They teach hole flow in the military due to so many being dug. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Nov 5 13:28:22 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iA5LSDcc024524; Fri, 5 Nov 2004 13:28:14 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iA5LQjbh024083; Fri, 5 Nov 2004 13:26:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 13:26:45 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <006301c4c37d$ec0511a0$d0bcfea9@jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: Subject: Triad models Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 13:25:06 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0060_01C4C33A.DD8DE540" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56361 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0060_01C4C33A.DD8DE540 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In ancient Greece, the oracle of Delphi was said to have foretold that = whoever untied the Gordian knot, a seemingly simple knot except that no = ends were exposed, would rule the World. The knotty-problem supposedly = resisted all solutions until a kid named Alexander cut through it like = butter with one swipe of his sword, revealing its secret. The oracle = apparently forgot to set ground-rules on the use of brute force. Then...as now, it seems, the number-one generalization for advancing = society is: might is right... or to say it another way, we aren't yet = very civilized at all... or as Mr. Spock might opine sneeringly, "a 2-B = civilization." Anyway, not to change the subject much - if a bound lepton triad exists, = is there anyway to visualize it? .... Hey, Alec, can I borrow that = blade, man ? Of course, we have been told from early-on that the electron is a "point = particle" which for the purpose of certain mathematical exercises it = appears to be. But the "point" aspect is also a cop-out in some ways, = and can be very much like a "center of mass" generalization, therefore = it does not answer the broader question - that of an electron having a = real or virtual "shape," or a dominant configuration in any relevant = dimension. Many of us have looked into the "orbitshere" model of R. Mills, where = the electron is said to be a 2-D disk, and for some uses this model is = more compelling than the point model, but not for other purposes. Mills = needs to borrow a bigger sword. One would assume that if he were = correct, the positron would have to look somewhat like a spin and charge = reversed orbitsphere, but I am pretty sure that Mills is way off on his = visualization - if for no other reason than it is hard to fit the = antiparticle into that view. IOW some would say that logically, = spin-reversal cannot exist in two dimensions. The original impetus for the existence of electronium (*e-) comes from = string theory, where the "strings" are best visualized as loops (the = snake eating his tail) and from analogizing the quark formative process = extending to leptons. As such, I suspect that Fred imagines the (*e-) = triad to have the appearance of a stack of three rings, the center being = counter-spin to the other two but with an *aligned axis* of the three = (but we have not actually discussed this yet, so he will surely add his = visualization after hearing some of the following further heresy). It is also possible to have kind of "stack" of three rings where the = center ring is orthogonal to the other two. Another possible form for electronium to take, if the electron is more = "ring" than "disk" is the three-interlocking-ring model - kind of like = the "Olympics" icon but each ring orthogonal, like links in a chain... = kind of like the "stack" above but with interlocking wave-functions. Just after the turn of the century, D'Arcy Thompson wrote a seminal book = about the subject of "form" called simply enough, "On Growth and Form". = One major theme is that 'form' tends to repeat itself on different = geometric scales, up and down. This suggests that there is a two-way = mirrored self-symmetry of the kind made famous by Fractal images, and = which seems to be nature's way of generating form.=20 As we often hear it expressed, the human mind can't get away from the = notion that atoms are little solar systems. That is extreme = self-symmetry. Atoms might share some very general features in common = with the larger entity, the solar system, but probably NOT very many, = and the larger model may actually do more harm than good. = Self-similarity is only relevant between closely adjoining steps, and = the solar system model is way-off for atomic dimensions. One wonders if the electron - which seems to be indivisible but still = not 3-D, is composed of more complex form in another dimension, and we = are just seeing a persistent glimpse, whether the glimpse is of a = "point" or a "ring" or a "disk" or more troubling, all three existing at = the same time. The electron is the only subatomic particle with any best = claim to being fundamental - the best candidate for Democritus's idea of = an "unbreakable" unit (except perhaps Bruce Willis - for you "Night" = fans), but perhaps that uncuttability is a gross illusion - as it is = already cut-off from its full properties, just to fit into our 3-space. The so-called "Borromean Ring" is a different kind of triad interlocking = ring-form which commonly adorned Viking art and Renaissance = architecture. This structure has the property that no two rings are = interlocking, therefore if any one of the rings is removed, then all = three separate.=20 The fascination among chemists with understanding "form ideals" caused = them to consider the borromean ring "form" for certain interlocking = molecules, and apparently chemists have created the form molecularly:=20 http://www.sciencenews.org/articles/20040529/fob7.asp With molecules, we are getting down to the scale level where "two-way = mirrored self-symmetry" does indeed mean that the adjoining forms do = actually share many features - unlike the atom and the solar system. Jones Oh, even though you didn't ask and probably don't care ... my current = favorite way to visualize electronium is rather difficult to explain, = having taken more than a few kilobytes just to get this far... but it is = basically the three non-interlocking-orthogonal-ring form... ... except... and this is a big exception: the positron, which is the = orthogonal ring sandwiched between the two electrons is actually NOT in = the same dimension ! The positron is interfacial, and exists in Dirac's = sea as a "hole" - but Dirac's sea is in "reciprocal space," not our = 3-space. In our 3-space, electronium would "look" like two bound = electrons which do not repel...=20 ...like Cooper pairs, for instance? ------=_NextPart_000_0060_01C4C33A.DD8DE540 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In ancient Greece, the oracle of Delphi was said to have = foretold that=20 whoever untied the Gordian knot, a seemingly simple knot except that no = ends=20 were exposed, would rule the World. The knotty-problem supposedly = resisted all=20 solutions until a kid named Alexander cut through it like butter with = one swipe=20 of his sword, revealing its secret. The oracle apparently forgot to set=20 ground-rules on the use of brute force.
 
Then...as now, it seems, the number-one generalization for = advancing=20 society is: might is right... or to say it another way, we aren't yet = very=20 civilized at all... or as Mr. Spock might opine sneeringly, "a 2-B=20 civilization."
 
Anyway, not to change the subject much - if a bound lepton triad = exists, is=20 there anyway to visualize it? .... Hey, Alec, can I borrow that blade, = man=20 ?
 
Of course, we have been told from early-on that the electron is a = "point=20 particle" which for the purpose of certain mathematical exercises it = appears to=20 be. But the "point" aspect is also a cop-out in some ways, and can = be very=20 much like a "center of mass" generalization, therefore it does not = answer the=20 broader question - that of an electron having a real or virtual = "shape," or=20 a dominant configuration in any relevant dimension.
 
Many of us have looked into the "orbitshere" model of R. Mills, = where the=20 electron is said to be a 2-D disk, and for some uses this model is more=20 compelling than the point model, but not for other purposes. Mills needs = to=20 borrow a bigger sword. One would assume that if he were correct, the = positron=20 would have to look somewhat like a spin and charge reversed orbitsphere, = but I=20 am pretty sure that Mills is way off on his visualization -  if for = no=20 other reason than it is hard to fit the antiparticle into that = view. IOW=20 some would say that logically, spin-reversal cannot exist in two=20 dimensions.
 
The original impetus for the existence of electronium (*e-) comes = from=20 string theory, where the "strings" are best visualized as loops (the = snake=20 eating his tail) and from analogizing the quark formative process = extending to=20 leptons. As such, I suspect that Fred imagines the (*e-) triad to have = the=20 appearance of a stack of three rings, the center being counter-spin to = the other=20 two but with an *aligned axis* of the three (but we have not = actually=20 discussed this yet, so he will surely add his visualization after = hearing some=20 of the following further heresy).
 
It is also possible to have kind of "stack" of three rings where = the center=20 ring is orthogonal to the other two.
 
Another possible form for electronium to take, if the electron is = more=20 "ring" than "disk" is the three-interlocking-ring model - kind of like = the=20 "Olympics" icon but each ring orthogonal, like links in a chain... kind = of like=20 the "stack" above but with interlocking wave-functions.
 
Just after the turn of the century, D'Arcy Thompson wrote a seminal = book=20 about the subject of "form" called simply enough, "On Growth and = Form". One=20 major theme is that 'form' tends to repeat itself on different geometric = scales,=20 up and down. This suggests that there is a two-way mirrored = self-symmetry=20 of the kind made famous by Fractal images, and which seems to be = nature's=20 way of generating form.
 
As we often hear it expressed, the human mind can't get away from = the=20 notion that atoms are little solar systems. That is extreme = self-symmetry.=20 Atoms might share some very general features in common with the = larger=20 entity, the solar system, but probably NOT very many, and the larger = model may=20 actually do more harm than good. Self-similarity is only relevant = between=20 closely adjoining steps, and the solar system model is way-off for = atomic=20 dimensions.

One wonders if the electron - which seems to be indivisible but still = not=20 3-D, is composed of more complex form in another dimension, and we are = just=20 seeing a persistent glimpse, whether the glimpse is of a "point" or a = "ring" or=20 a "disk" or more troubling, all three existing at the same time. The = electron is=20 the only subatomic particle with any best claim to being fundamental - = the best=20 candidate for Democritus's idea of an "unbreakable" unit (except perhaps = Bruce=20 Willis - for you "Night" fans), but perhaps that uncuttability is a=20 gross illusion - as it is already cut-off from its full = properties,=20  just to fit into our 3-space.

The so-called "Borromean Ring" is a different kind of = triad interlocking=20 ring-form which commonly adorned Viking art and Renaissance = architecture. This=20 structure has the property that no two rings are interlocking, = therefore if=20 any one of the rings is removed, then all three separate.

The fascination among chemists with understanding "form ideals" = caused=20  them to consider the borromean ring "form" for=20 certain interlocking molecules, and apparently chemists have=20 created the form molecularly: 

http://www= .sciencenews.org/articles/20040529/fob7.asp

With molecules, we are getting down to the scale level where "two-way = mirrored self-symmetry" does indeed mean that the adjoining forms do = actually=20 share many features - unlike the atom and the solar system.

Jones

Oh, even though you didn't ask and probably don't care ... my current = favorite way to visualize electronium is rather difficult to explain, = having=20 taken more than a few kilobytes just to get this far... but it is = basically=20 the three non-interlocking-orthogonal-ring form...

... except... and this is a big exception: the positron, which is the = orthogonal ring sandwiched between the two electrons is actually NOT in = the same=20 dimension ! The positron is interfacial, and exists in Dirac's sea as a = "hole" -=20 but Dirac's sea is in "reciprocal space," not our 3-space. In our = 3-space,=20 electronium would "look" like two bound electrons which do not repel... =

...like Cooper pairs, for instance?

 

 

 

 
 
------=_NextPart_000_0060_01C4C33A.DD8DE540-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Nov 5 13:30:25 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iA5LUJCJ008175; Fri, 5 Nov 2004 13:30:19 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iA5LSv1W007607; Fri, 5 Nov 2004 13:28:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 13:28:57 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner@mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 12:35:10 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Zinc Conduction Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56362 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 2:03 PM 11/5/4, Terry Blanton wrote: >Frederick Sparber wrote: > >> Will a zinc rod carrying a current attract or repel a copper rod >> carrying a current in >> the opposite direction?? >> >> "In zinc however, conduction is dominated by the motion of positive >> charge carriers. Electrons in zinc that are excited from the valence >> band leave holes, which are vacancies (i.e., unfilled levels) that >> behave like positive charge carriers. The motion of these holes >> accounts for most of the conduction of electricity in zinc." > > >I though hole flow and electron flow were always equivalent. They teach >hole flow in the military due to so many being dug. I suspect Fred is looking at the Lorentz paradox for holes. I've been there, done that. It doesn't work for a "warp" drive. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Nov 5 19:19:07 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iA63HbK4020424; Fri, 5 Nov 2004 19:18:57 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iA63HVFj020385; Fri, 5 Nov 2004 19:17:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 19:17:31 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <410-22004116621622960@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Electronium-Electron Clustering Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 20:16:22 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940030226db243da3bd59213205e7a89f73350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.165.215 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56363 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII With due homage to Jones Beene's "Pretzel" models, :-) the magnetic moments don't come out right unless the particles are infinitely thin disks or loops "stacked" side-by-side. "Triad", is a word I've been using for decades to describe such a lineup of the three quarks in a proton (two "up" plus disks, and one "down" negative disk), opposite this for the anti proton with an external electron or positron respectively for the proton and antiproton. The (*e-) Triad naturally fits the same mold, and exhibits a local magnetic field on the order of 2.6e12 Tesla which drops off to 8.3e11 Tesla at a distance of 1.0e-15 meters out on the magnetic axis. http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/magnetic/curloo.html Since the (*e-) B field is about three times that of an electron or positron, it may very well "capture" one or more electrons, where stacking of electrons without this "seeding" isn't likely. Hence an (*e-) plus one electron has a mass of about three electron masses a charge of 2 e- and a spin of 1/2 hbar. Nice lineup for Helium Burning in CF. Is this what "seeds" Ken Shoulders' EVOs (Electron Clusters)? Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

With due homage to Jones Beene's "Pretzel" models,  :-) the magnetic moments
don't come out right unless the particles are infinitely thin disks or loops "stacked" side-by-side.
 "Triad", is a word I've been using for decades to describe such a lineup of the three quarks
in a proton (two "up" plus disks, and one "down" negative disk), opposite this for the anti proton
with an external electron or positron respectively for the proton and antiproton.
 
The (*e-) Triad naturally fits the same mold, and exhibits a local magnetic field on the
order of 2.6e12 Tesla which drops off to 8.3e11 Tesla at a distance of 1.0e-15 meters out
on the magnetic axis.
 
Since the (*e-) B field is about three times that of an electron or positron, it
may very well "capture" one or more electrons, where stacking of electrons
without this "seeding" isn't likely.
 
Hence an (*e-) plus one electron has a mass of about three electron masses a charge
of 2 e- and a spin of 1/2 hbar. Nice lineup for Helium Burning in CF.
 
Is this what "seeds" Ken Shoulders'  EVOs (Electron Clusters)? 
 
Frederick
 
 
 
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Nov 6 08:57:14 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iA6GtkYF025506; Sat, 6 Nov 2004 08:57:11 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iA6GtTfu025081; Sat, 6 Nov 2004 08:55:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 08:55:29 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <004d01c4c421$011477e0$d0bcfea9@jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: Subject: A different "lead" to OU Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 08:52:29 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_004A_01C4C3DD.F2170480" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56364 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_004A_01C4C3DD.F2170480 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Well... I am taking a few minutes break from trying to remember arcane = AutoCAD commands - in trying to jump-start the design of a detailed = "really cold fusion" experiment, in order to follow-up on a thought = about other forms of alternative energy which might share a common = thread.=20 That thread being the putative (*e-) electronium, the speculative = triad-bound-lepton which is being tossed around on vortex as if it were = real. And the idea for (*e-) is regrettably well on its way to becoming = at least an urban myth or conspiracy theory (should the MIB intervene) = if not a meme, despite an overwhelming present lack of proof, thanks to = online-verbosity of you know who. But that is the nature of trying to = navigate the "cutting edge." Hopefully, if one is occasionally correct, = then that will mollify the frustration of proposing many false leads. = And the "false lead" (get it?) is really what this post is about. The impetus for this retrospective was a Science News story recently = claiming that there were 20 million metric tons of discarded lead = bullets, having been fired in the United States in the 20th century, = still in the ground (or in the carcasses of victims)... which large = amount of lead (combined with discarded batteries) could be having an = environmental impact due to toxicity. =20 That's a lot of ammo, my friend, but I do NOT personally want to get = into the cross-hairs of the NRA, which is scarier than the MIB, so let = me delay any rant on the number of gunshot deaths in the USA due to this = notorious element, and get on to an equally disgusting lead-related = subject (for some of the old-timers on this forum, at least). That would = be Joe Newman. Now despite whatever character flaws this inventor might have = demonstrated in the past in regard to taking investor's money without = delivering the goods, so to speak, or publishing grossly over-priced = books so full of BS that they begin to smell after a while... let me say = that he does have a fair number of boosters and ... dare I say... = *probably* there was a grain of truth somewhere in his past antics. = Twenty years ago, in fact, his experiments seemed to be more robust that = today. Most would doubt even the "grain of truth" in his work, but the = following thoughts will assume that at times, JN was able to demonstrate = OU, or at least "greatly extending the life" of lead-acid batteries, = despite having them connected to a very inefficient motor. His ignorance = of science and over-bearing ego have no doubt have kept him from = discovering a possible commercial route to that chance-discovery of = overunity, however... and by now he has followed so many false trails in = trying to perfect a motor with needless amounts of copper, which design = was so far from OU to begin with, that the real excess energy factor in = his work will be difficult to pinpoint. But it may involve lead. Lead... as in battery lead. But what is lead? Like the aforementioned = element bismuth, lead is a somewhat of a heavy-weight chameleon... and = it has 30 isotopes and isomers to prove it. But lead is neither as dense = nor as common as popular wisdom suggests. There are at least 25 elements = more dense; and even the rare element lithium is half again more = prevalent in the earth's crust. But of all the elements, lead has the = distinction of being the "end-of-the-line" so to speak, in the decay of = uranium and thorium... and that is where the electronium connection = comes in... and possibly the Joe Newman connection as well. To digress, apparently some "creationists" want you to believe that ALL = lead is the result of radioactive decay, and they have crafted carefully = contrived and extraordinarily foolish arguments to show how this proves = that the earth is a thousand times younger than the 5 billion years = which geologists claim. This argument puts the "stink" of JN's book to = shame, but I do NOT want to incur the wrath of the religious-right = either... which is not quite as scary as the MIB or NRA, unless you go = back to the days of the "Inquisition" (which Ashcroft was hoping to = revive, as rumor has it) so let me delay any rant on the "creation" = event having transpired in modern times and get back to following a real = lead.=20 Anyway this idea (that ALL lead is the result of radioactive decay) is a = fundamental error. Most lead has always been lead from day one. It is = true that thorium and uranium decay to lead, but they are rare elements = and the decay rate is excruciatingly slow. Since one doesn=92t know how = much lead was lead to begin with, one can=92t tell how old any rock is = from the ratio of U to Pb. In all likelihood, the amount of lead from = radioactive decay, even after billions of years, is less than half of = the amount of lead in the rock to begin with. However... and this is a = very key point... in some lead-ore deposits, a large fraction of the = lead, even close to 100% may have come from radioactive decay... and in = other deposits, almost none of it comes down from decay. But to the = manufacturers of batteries, lead is lead. And that is the problem fro = reproducing an effect which could depend upon "something" in the lead. At any rate, this amount of lead which is the result of radioactive = decay is also the crux of the issue of JNs claim to excess energy - = energy which will "occasionally" show up when batteries are see-sawed = with his grossly inefficient motor, but not when capacitors are = substituted for the batteries. Considering that his motor has been = proven to be about 65% efficient, ALL of that excess energy must have = been due to batteries. But instead of pursuing this, Newman concocted = some... No, let's don't go there. Let's just pursue the idea that lead could be responsible for the = occasional successes in some experiments, and try to figure out how it = could be responsible. If nature has provided us with a fairly rare = "heavy electron" triad, which we are calling Electronium (*e-), and = such a particle tends to accumulate in those particular elements which = undergo radioactive decay, due to the common modality of "pair creation" = following nuclear events, further resulting in triad formation in = condensed matter...such as when an alpha particle is emitted from = uranium decay, then the culprit behind the reason that "some" batteries = can show OU in certain situations, but not capacitors, has been = answered, at least at the prima facie level. As to the details of how (*e-) provides OU in batteries, but only if the = lead used in their construction came From Uranium decay, and only if = they are "deep-cycles" that involves complex electrochemistry. And the = details are really not that important except ot say this: the process = must be very inefficient, and if one wanted to capture most of the = energy of (*e-) from lead, then using batteries instead of capacitors is = probably NOT the most promising way to proceed. Actually... in somewhat of an ironic twist, my guess is that if one had = access to a certain amount of lead, especially lead foil, which was = shown to have come mostly from U decay, then a better way to use the = (*e-) content than in batteries would be to fashion thin electrolytic = capacitor plates. That is because (*e-) due of its higher density, would = be definitely *inhibited* from ever becoming "conduction" electrons, and = would likely only do so in the event of a "deep" discharge cycle, and = even then only partially. But...as JN was able to blindly discover or so = it is theorized (and actually he preferred to use "dead" batteries from = the start) some batteries will give better results when stressed near = the limits of discharge.=20 With electrolytic capacitors, one can achieve complete, even = "over-discharge" cycling much, much faster than with batteries... at = least that is one way of looking at it... but it would necessarily = involve getting lead, and not just "any" lead, into the capacitor plates = themselves, which as far as I know, has never been done.=20 ....Maybe homemade capacitors of the Leyden jar variety, using lead, = would show some OU ? ... say, you don't think that using lead-foil in a Leyden jar was one of = the things that the crazy Swiss guy was doing? Jones ------=_NextPart_000_004A_01C4C3DD.F2170480 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Well... I am taking a few minutes break from trying to remember = arcane=20 AutoCAD commands - in trying to jump-start the design of a detailed = "really=20 cold fusion" experiment, in order to follow-up on a thought about other = forms of=20 alternative energy which might share a common thread. 
 
That thread being the putative (*e-) electronium, the = speculative=20 triad-bound-lepton which is being tossed around on vortex as if it were = real.=20 And the idea for (*e-) is regrettably well on its way to becoming at = least an=20 urban myth or conspiracy theory (should the MIB intervene) if not a = meme,=20 despite an overwhelming present lack of proof, thanks to = online-verbosity of you=20 know who. But that is the nature of trying to navigate the "cutting = edge."=20 Hopefully, if one is occasionally correct, then that will mollify the=20 frustration of proposing many false leads. And the "false lead" (get = it?) is=20 really what this post is about.
 
The impetus for this retrospective was a Science News story = recently=20 claiming that there were 20 million metric tons of discarded lead = bullets,=20 having been fired in the United States in the 20th century, still = in the=20 ground (or in the carcasses of victims)... which large amount of lead = (combined=20 with discarded batteries) could be having an environmental impact due to = toxicity.
 
That's a lot of ammo, my friend, but I do NOT=20 personally want to get into the cross-hairs of the NRA, which is = scarier=20 than the MIB, so let me delay any rant on the number of gunshot deaths = in the=20 USA due to this notorious element, and get on to an equally disgusting=20 lead-related subject (for some of the old-timers on this forum, at = least). That=20 would be Joe Newman.
 
Now despite whatever character flaws this inventor might have = demonstrated=20 in the past in regard to taking investor's money without delivering the = goods,=20 so to speak, or publishing grossly over-priced books so full of BS that = they=20 begin to smell after a while... let me say that he does have a fair = number of=20 boosters and ... dare I say... *probably* there was a grain of = truth=20 somewhere in his past antics. Twenty years ago, in fact, his experiments = seemed=20 to be more robust that today.
 
Most would doubt even the "grain of truth" in his work, but the = following=20 thoughts will assume that at times, JN was able to demonstrate OU, or at = least=20 "greatly extending the life" of lead-acid batteries, despite having them = connected to a very inefficient motor. His ignorance of science and = over-bearing=20 ego have no doubt have kept him from discovering a possible commercial = route to=20 that chance-discovery of overunity, however... and by now he has = followed so=20 many false trails in trying to perfect a motor with needless amounts of = copper,=20 which design was so far from OU to begin with, that the real excess = energy=20 factor in his work will be difficult to pinpoint.
 
But it may involve lead.
 
Lead... as in battery lead. But what is lead? Like the = aforementioned=20 element bismuth, lead is a somewhat of a heavy-weight chameleon... and = it=20 has 30 isotopes and isomers to prove it. But lead is neither as = dense nor=20 as common as popular wisdom suggests. There are at least 25 elements = more dense;=20 and even the rare element lithium is half again more prevalent in the = earth's=20 crust. But of all the elements, lead has the distinction of being the=20 "end-of-the-line" so to speak, in the decay of uranium and thorium... = and that=20 is where the electronium connection comes in... and possibly the Joe = Newman=20 connection as well.
 
To digress, apparently some "creationists" want you = to believe=20 that ALL lead is the result of radioactive decay, and they have crafted=20 carefully contrived and extraordinarily foolish arguments to show how = this=20 proves that the earth is a thousand times younger than the 5 billion = years which=20 geologists claim. This argument puts the "stink" of JN's book to shame, = but I do=20 NOT want to incur the wrath of the religious-right either... which is = not quite=20 as scary as the MIB or NRA, unless you go back to the days of the=20 "Inquisition" (which Ashcroft was hoping to revive, as rumor has it) so = let me=20 delay any rant on the "creation" event having transpired in modern times = and get=20 back to following a real lead.
 
Anyway this idea (that ALL lead is the result of radioactive decay) = is a=20 fundamental error. Most lead has always been lead from day one.  It = is true=20 that thorium and uranium decay to lead, but they are rare elements and = the decay=20 rate is excruciatingly slow. Since one doesn=92t know how much lead = was lead=20 to begin with, one can=92t tell how old any rock is from the ratio of U = to Pb. In=20 all likelihood, the amount of lead from radioactive decay, even after = billions=20 of years, is less than half of the amount of lead in the rock to = begin=20 with. However... and this is a very key point... in some lead-ore = deposits, a=20 large fraction of the lead, even close to 100% may have come from=20 radioactive decay... and in other deposits, almost none of it comes down = from=20 decay. But to the manufacturers of batteries, lead is lead. And that is = the=20 problem fro reproducing an effect which could depend upon "something" in = the=20 lead.
 
At any rate, this amount of lead which is the result of radioactive = decay=20 is also the crux of the issue of JNs claim to excess energy - energy = which will=20 "occasionally" show up when batteries are see-sawed with his grossly = inefficient=20 motor, but not when capacitors are substituted for the batteries. = Considering=20 that his motor has been proven to be about 65% efficient, ALL of that = excess=20 energy must have been due to batteries. But instead of pursuing this, = Newman=20 concocted some... No, let's don't go there.
 
Let's just pursue the idea that lead could be responsible for the=20 occasional successes in some experiments, and try to figure out how it = could be=20 responsible. If nature has provided us with a fairly rare = "heavy=20 electron" triad, which we are calling  Electronium (*e-), and such=20 a particle tends to accumulate in those particular elements=20 which undergo radioactive decay, due to the common modality of = "pair=20 creation" following nuclear events, further resulting in triad formation = in=20 condensed matter...such as when an alpha particle is emitted from = uranium decay,=20 then the culprit behind the reason that "some" batteries can show OU in = certain=20 situations, but not capacitors, has been answered, at least at the = prima=20 facie level.
 
As to the details of how (*e-) provides OU in batteries, but = only if=20 the lead used in their construction came From Uranium decay, and only if = they=20 are "deep-cycles" that involves complex electrochemistry. And the=20 details are really not that important except ot say this: the = process must=20 be very inefficient, and if one wanted to capture most of the energy of = (*e-)=20 from lead, then using batteries instead of capacitors is probably NOT = the most=20 promising way to proceed.
 
Actually... in somewhat of an ironic twist, my guess is that if one = had=20 access to a certain amount of lead, especially lead foil, which was = shown to=20 have come mostly from U decay, then a better way to use the (*e-) = content than=20 in batteries would be to fashion thin electrolytic capacitor plates. = That is=20 because (*e-) due of its higher density, would be definitely *inhibited* = from=20 ever becoming "conduction" electrons, and would likely only do so in the = event=20 of a "deep" discharge cycle, and even then only partially. But...as JN = was able=20 to blindly discover or so it is theorized (and actually he preferred to = use=20 "dead" batteries from the start) some batteries will give better results = when=20 stressed near the limits of discharge.
 
With electrolytic capacitors, one can achieve complete, even=20 "over-discharge" cycling much, much faster than with batteries... at = least that=20 is one way of looking at it... but it would necessarily involve getting = lead,=20 and not just "any" lead, into the capacitor plates themselves, = which as far=20 as I know, has never been done.
 
....Maybe homemade capacitors of the Leyden jar variety, using=20 lead, would show some OU ?
 
... say, you don't think that using lead-foil in a Leyden jar was = one of=20 the things that the crazy Swiss guy was doing?
 
Jones
 
------=_NextPart_000_004A_01C4C3DD.F2170480-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Nov 6 10:28:18 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iA6ISDYF026730; Sat, 6 Nov 2004 10:28:13 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iA6ISB50026714; Sat, 6 Nov 2004 10:28:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 10:28:11 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Originating-IP: [4.243.158.202] X-Originating-Email: [mgoldes@msn.com] X-Sender: mgoldes@msn.com From: "Mark Goldes" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Cc: jonesb9@pacbell.net Subject: RE: A different "lead" to OU Date: Sat, 06 Nov 2004 10:27:17 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 Nov 2004 18:28:04.0836 (UTC) FILETIME=[5B0D6240:01C4C42E] Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56365 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones, I flew down to meet Joe Newman shortly after he first surfaced. His batteries were 9v RayOVac primary cells. I spoke to the engineer at RayOVac who supplied them. When they examined the batteries, which always eventually stopped working, he said they found that Newman had so much RF in his circuit that the chemical layer which normally ends the life of a primary cell was being destroyed, allowing the normally unutilized remainder of potentially active battery materials to be used. This gave Newman the illusion that he was recharging the cells. I stopped following his work after the big display where he ran an electric auto with more than 1,000 9v batteries at 4 mph for a short distance. The RF was so pervasive he was lighting fluorescent tubes on the roof of the car. Perhaps he went on to lead acid, but that was the picture when we checked out his work. Mark >From: "Jones Beene" >Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >To: >Subject: A different "lead" to OU >Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 08:52:29 -0800 > >Well... I am taking a few minutes break from trying to remember arcane >AutoCAD commands - in trying to jump-start the design of a detailed "really >cold fusion" experiment, in order to follow-up on a thought about other >forms of alternative energy which might share a common thread. > >That thread being the putative (*e-) electronium, the speculative >triad-bound-lepton which is being tossed around on vortex as if it were >real. And the idea for (*e-) is regrettably well on its way to becoming at >least an urban myth or conspiracy theory (should the MIB intervene) if not >a meme, despite an overwhelming present lack of proof, thanks to >online-verbosity of you know who. But that is the nature of trying to >navigate the "cutting edge." Hopefully, if one is occasionally correct, >then that will mollify the frustration of proposing many false leads. And >the "false lead" (get it?) is really what this post is about. > >The impetus for this retrospective was a Science News story recently >claiming that there were 20 million metric tons of discarded lead bullets, >having been fired in the United States in the 20th century, still in the >ground (or in the carcasses of victims)... which large amount of lead >(combined with discarded batteries) could be having an environmental impact >due to toxicity. > >That's a lot of ammo, my friend, but I do NOT personally want to get into >the cross-hairs of the NRA, which is scarier than the MIB, so let me delay >any rant on the number of gunshot deaths in the USA due to this notorious >element, and get on to an equally disgusting lead-related subject (for some >of the old-timers on this forum, at least). That would be Joe Newman. > >Now despite whatever character flaws this inventor might have demonstrated >in the past in regard to taking investor's money without delivering the >goods, so to speak, or publishing grossly over-priced books so full of BS >that they begin to smell after a while... let me say that he does have a >fair number of boosters and ... dare I say... *probably* there was a grain >of truth somewhere in his past antics. Twenty years ago, in fact, his >experiments seemed to be more robust that today. > >Most would doubt even the "grain of truth" in his work, but the following >thoughts will assume that at times, JN was able to demonstrate OU, or at >least "greatly extending the life" of lead-acid batteries, despite having >them connected to a very inefficient motor. His ignorance of science and >over-bearing ego have no doubt have kept him from discovering a possible >commercial route to that chance-discovery of overunity, however... and by >now he has followed so many false trails in trying to perfect a motor with >needless amounts of copper, which design was so far from OU to begin with, >that the real excess energy factor in his work will be difficult to >pinpoint. > >But it may involve lead. > >Lead... as in battery lead. But what is lead? Like the aforementioned >element bismuth, lead is a somewhat of a heavy-weight chameleon... and it >has 30 isotopes and isomers to prove it. But lead is neither as dense nor >as common as popular wisdom suggests. There are at least 25 elements more >dense; and even the rare element lithium is half again more prevalent in >the earth's crust. But of all the elements, lead has the distinction of >being the "end-of-the-line" so to speak, in the decay of uranium and >thorium... and that is where the electronium connection comes in... and >possibly the Joe Newman connection as well. > >To digress, apparently some "creationists" want you to believe that ALL >lead is the result of radioactive decay, and they have crafted carefully >contrived and extraordinarily foolish arguments to show how this proves >that the earth is a thousand times younger than the 5 billion years which >geologists claim. This argument puts the "stink" of JN's book to shame, but >I do NOT want to incur the wrath of the religious-right either... which is >not quite as scary as the MIB or NRA, unless you go back to the days of the >"Inquisition" (which Ashcroft was hoping to revive, as rumor has it) so let >me delay any rant on the "creation" event having transpired in modern times >and get back to following a real lead. > >Anyway this idea (that ALL lead is the result of radioactive decay) is a >fundamental error. Most lead has always been lead from day one. It is true >that thorium and uranium decay to lead, but they are rare elements and the >decay rate is excruciatingly slow. Since one doesn’t know how much lead was >lead to begin with, one can’t tell how old any rock is from the ratio of U >to Pb. In all likelihood, the amount of lead from radioactive decay, even >after billions of years, is less than half of the amount of lead in the >rock to begin with. However... and this is a very key point... in some >lead-ore deposits, a large fraction of the lead, even close to 100% may >have come from radioactive decay... and in other deposits, almost none of >it comes down from decay. But to the manufacturers of batteries, lead is >lead. And that is the problem fro reproducing an effect which could depend >upon "something" in the lead. > >At any rate, this amount of lead which is the result of radioactive decay >is also the crux of the issue of JNs claim to excess energy - energy which >will "occasionally" show up when batteries are see-sawed with his grossly >inefficient motor, but not when capacitors are substituted for the >batteries. Considering that his motor has been proven to be about 65% >efficient, ALL of that excess energy must have been due to batteries. But >instead of pursuing this, Newman concocted some... No, let's don't go >there. > >Let's just pursue the idea that lead could be responsible for the >occasional successes in some experiments, and try to figure out how it >could be responsible. If nature has provided us with a fairly rare "heavy >electron" triad, which we are calling Electronium (*e-), and such a >particle tends to accumulate in those particular elements which undergo >radioactive decay, due to the common modality of "pair creation" following >nuclear events, further resulting in triad formation in condensed >matter...such as when an alpha particle is emitted from uranium decay, then >the culprit behind the reason that "some" batteries can show OU in certain >situations, but not capacitors, has been answered, at least at the prima >facie level. > >As to the details of how (*e-) provides OU in batteries, but only if the >lead used in their construction came From Uranium decay, and only if they >are "deep-cycles" that involves complex electrochemistry. And the details >are really not that important except ot say this: the process must be very >inefficient, and if one wanted to capture most of the energy of (*e-) from >lead, then using batteries instead of capacitors is probably NOT the most >promising way to proceed. > >Actually... in somewhat of an ironic twist, my guess is that if one had >access to a certain amount of lead, especially lead foil, which was shown >to have come mostly from U decay, then a better way to use the (*e-) >content than in batteries would be to fashion thin electrolytic capacitor >plates. That is because (*e-) due of its higher density, would be >definitely *inhibited* from ever becoming "conduction" electrons, and would >likely only do so in the event of a "deep" discharge cycle, and even then >only partially. But...as JN was able to blindly discover or so it is >theorized (and actually he preferred to use "dead" batteries from the >start) some batteries will give better results when stressed near the >limits of discharge. > >With electrolytic capacitors, one can achieve complete, even >"over-discharge" cycling much, much faster than with batteries... at least >that is one way of looking at it... but it would necessarily involve >getting lead, and not just "any" lead, into the capacitor plates >themselves, which as far as I know, has never been done. > >....Maybe homemade capacitors of the Leyden jar variety, using lead, would >show some OU ? > >... say, you don't think that using lead-foil in a Leyden jar was one of >the things that the crazy Swiss guy was doing? > >Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Nov 6 11:42:00 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iA6JfrYF016858; Sat, 6 Nov 2004 11:41:54 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iA6JfqZC016841; Sat, 6 Nov 2004 11:41:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 11:41:52 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <007b01c4c438$6f3b81c0$d0bcfea9@jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: Subject: Re: A different "lead" to OU Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 11:40:13 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56366 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mark, Thanks for the information. I had a feeling that if there was anything to Newman's claim that you would have been there long ago. I take it that you saw zero credibility in his claims? But actually, the fact that he was using alkaline batteries is some of his early work might also bolster the suggestion that IF he had any hint of OU in that early work - that electronium might have played a role. This is because alkaline cells had some lead content before there was a big push to get rid of it. Did RayOVac give any hint of the makeup of their cells? Of course mercury, cadmium and zinc might also end up being electronium concentrators as well, ...and of course, this line of reasoning which implicates lead as the source of any OU (which was somewhat hastily put together this morning) may be totally in error. That is the most likely choice. Still, it would be very interesting to compare lead capacitance in two tank circuits - one where the lead was definitely not derived from U decay and the other where the lead definitely was a product of U decay - That would be a test, where if there was no difference in the two... at least it would cause this observer at least to quell his enthusiasm for finding electronium in the most likely place - which then might further indicate that the particle itself is imaginary. Matter of fact... if it there were some stronger evidence against it being real, I would get a lot sounder sleep these days.... Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Nov 6 13:00:06 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iA6L01YF004887; Sat, 6 Nov 2004 13:00:01 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iA6Kxt7a004840; Sat, 6 Nov 2004 12:59:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 12:59:55 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <00c301c4c443$544b7220$d0bcfea9@jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: Subject: Re: A different "lead" to OU Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 12:58:12 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56367 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > Still, it would be very interesting to > compare lead (Pb) capacitance in two tank circuits - one where > the lead was definitely not derived from U decay and the > other where the lead definitely was a product of U decay - A quick googling of the net has turned up a supplier of lead film for capacitors. http://www.winter-wolff.com/ I will write them to see if they have ever tried to dertermine where the lead which they use comes from (mine or region) - i.e. whether or not they can tell if it is predominately a decay product or "natural"... I think most people would be impressed with positive result of two identical tank circuits operating side by side, where one of the identical circuits contained a capacitor made of [Pb from natural ore containing little U], and the other used the same rated capacitor but constructed from [Pb which was refined from uranium ore]. By "positive results," however, I'm not sure how much difference there could be in this simple experiment - and both capacitors would need to be identically rated and definitely need to be run a little over their rated voltage, that is - if (*e-) is normally as inhibited from becoming a conductance electron as suspected, so there could be lots of room for skepticism if the parts from different suppliers were used, etc. ... so what would you look for - "ringing" time ? Something like shutting off the input with a common relay after which you timed the length of time which each circuit "rings" ? ...or is this even worth the trouble? Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Nov 6 17:08:22 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iA718EK4018243; Sat, 6 Nov 2004 17:08:14 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iA7188du018215; Sat, 6 Nov 2004 17:08:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 17:08:08 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001a01c4c466$3880a600$0100007f@xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Speculative -triad-bound leptons Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 19:07:19 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0016_01C4C433.D6D44BF0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.5 required=4.0 tests=HTML_40_50,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56368 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C4C433.D6D44BF0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0017_01C4C433.D6D44BF0" ------=_NextPart_001_0017_01C4C433.D6D44BF0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankSounds like characters out of a Hobbitt book. My suggestion for searching for ( e*) is to study a hurricane ( vortex) = and ask yourself two questions. What is = the counterforce that provides a limit to its rotational speed ?=20 Is there a force that prevents everything from coming = unwound? If there is such a force, can this force be what you describe as (e*)=20 Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0017_01C4C433.D6D44BF0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Sounds like  characters out of a Hobbitt book.
 
My  suggestion for searching for ( e*) is to study a hurricane = (=20 vortex) and ask yourself two questions.=20             &= nbsp;  =20             &= nbsp;   What=20 is the counterforce that provides a limit to its rotational speed ? =
           &n= bsp;   =20 Is there a force that prevents everything from coming unwound?
 
If there is such a force, can this force be what you describe as = (e*)=20
 
Richard
 
------=_NextPart_001_0017_01C4C433.D6D44BF0-- ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C4C433.D6D44BF0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <001501c4c466$215f52a0$0100007f@xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C4C433.D6D44BF0-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Nov 7 10:51:28 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iA7IpLYF005851; Sun, 7 Nov 2004 10:51:21 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iA7IpJAu005807; Sun, 7 Nov 2004 10:51:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 10:51:19 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <006b01c4c4fa$86580500$d0bcfea9@jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: Subject: The Bucky-Cal LENR Matrix Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 10:49:34 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0068_01C4C4B7.77D7B0E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56369 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0068_01C4C4B7.77D7B0E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable or... What happens when the C-60 fullerene inter-calcates... and = absorbs D2? Mention has been made of some surprising correlations between high = temperature superconductivity and cold fusion. More on that later, but = assuming that there is some overlap, what is the best proton conductive = active membrane to use if one wishes to try to perform "really cold = fusion" (i.e. minus 154 F)? The "matrix" in which LENR reactions can occur may end up being the = deciding factor as to whether the technology can be commercialized. = Consequently every promising avenue should be pursued, and many = materials have been mentioned. Buckyballs (fullerenes or C-60) are a potential matrix for LENR, but = C-60 is not superconductive by itself - should that factor be deemed to = be important.=20 Titanium or nickel might work, but some questions have arisen about = their ability to absorb D2 at high ratios and still retain structural = integrity at low temperatures, and there is no real evidence that either = hydride is superconductive at any temperature, unlike Pd. Both Pd and palladium hydrides are superconductive at low temperature. = Here is a this known factoid, should CF ever make it to "trivial = pursuit" status - Laufer's "Theory of superconductivity in = palladium-noble-metal hydrides" actually preceded P&F by three years ! = Also it should be noted that *high internal effective pressure* has the = same entropy reducing properties as cold temperature, but with Pd the = loading ration must get to 1:1 before this becomes a factor. It is also relevant to note these other inter-related factoids, which = are surrounding the four seemingly unrelated technologies: LENR, HTSC, = bucky-balls, and calcium - and which might enter into the quest for a = better "matrix" for LENR - other than the expensive and rare palladium, = and assuming that neither Ti nor Ni perform well at cryogenic temps: 1) One of the best high-temperature (HTSC) materials yet found is = (BISCO) which contains calcium. It becomes superconductive near the = range in which a "really cold" CF cell is anticipated to be run. 2) Calcium in the periodic table is THE element with the highest atomic = mass in which p=3Dn ... which is to say that the number of protons in = the nucleus is perfectly balanced by the number of neutrons. See 5) = below. 3) In 1992, Superconductivity was discovered in calcium-doped C60=20 by Kortan, et al. at low temperature. The Ca metal atoms in a ratio of = about 4-1(or more) diffuse into tetrahedral interstitial sites of the = C60 bucky ball but not into the central cavity, which could still = accommodate several D2 molecules. 4) Superconductivity arising between pairs of electrons (referred to as = "Cooper pairs") is fairly well-know; but less well known is that = superconductivity is also realized in atomic nuclei, where a strong = correlation analogous to Cooper pairing arises. Are the two factors = interconnected (i.e. does nucleon superconductivity presage Cooper = pairing? And if so, is item 2) relevant to why calcium seems to be the = best choice for getting HTSC into C-60 ? 5) About 10 years ago two enigmatic engineers (Cooley and Bennett ) = proposed to use fullerenes as a CF matrix. They tried to raise capital, = apparently with little success. Then the company seems to have = disappeared from the horizon (or moved to Oregon) without much in the = way of reported progress. The former web site seems to have been taken = over by Chinese video-gamers. Probably a bad sign, but did they even = know about the connection to HTSC? If they did not, that could have been = their basis for their problem. C-60 could be an ideal matrix BUT only if = it can be made superconductive. Don't be surprised if Mark Goldes knows the answer.... 6) C-60 is commercially available, and will always be cheap and = available compared to Pd... plus, inter-calcating is relatively simple. 7) As an alternative to C-60, does an Ultraconductor (TM) have any = potential to absorb D2, or can C-60 be incorporated into an = Ultraconductor (TM) without destroying its properties ? The unknown questions are: 1) will the inter-calcated C-60 material still absorb D2? 2) will the "loaded and inter-calcated" C-60 membrane be superconductive = at minus 154 F and most of all, will it be structurally sound ? 3) Of course, overriding this whole inquiry, is HTSC absolutely = necessary in the active area ? Jones ------=_NextPart_000_0068_01C4C4B7.77D7B0E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
or...  What happens when the C-60 fullerene inter-calcates... = and=20 absorbs D2?
 
Mention has been made of some surprising correlations between = high=20 temperature superconductivity and cold fusion. More on that later, but = assuming=20 that there is some overlap, what is the best proton conductive active = membrane=20 to use if one wishes to try to perform "really cold fusion" (i.e. minus = 154=20 F)?
 
The "matrix" in which LENR reactions can occur may end up = being the=20 deciding factor as to whether the technology can be commercialized. = Consequently=20 every promising avenue should be pursued, and many materials have been=20 mentioned.
 
Buckyballs (fullerenes or C-60) are a potential matrix for LENR, = but C-60=20 is not superconductive by itself - should that factor be deemed to=20 be important.
 
Titanium or nickel might work, but some questions have arisen about = their=20 ability to absorb D2 at high ratios and still retain structural = integrity at low=20 temperatures, and there is no real evidence that either hydride is=20 superconductive at any temperature, unlike Pd.
 
Both Pd and palladium hydrides are superconductive at low = temperature. Here=20 is a this known factoid, should CF ever make it to "trivial pursuit" = status -=20 Laufer's "Theory of superconductivity in palladium-noble-metal hydrides" = actually preceded P&F by three years ! Also it should be noted that = *high=20 internal effective pressure* has the same entropy reducing properties as = cold=20 temperature, but with Pd the loading ration must get to 1:1 before this = becomes=20 a factor.
 
It is also relevant to note these other inter-related factoids, = which are=20 surrounding the four seemingly unrelated technologies: LENR, HTSC, = bucky-balls,=20 and calcium - and which might enter into the quest for a better "matrix" = for=20 LENR - other than the expensive and rare palladium, and assuming that = neither Ti=20 nor Ni perform well at cryogenic temps:
 
1) One of the best high-temperature (HTSC) materials yet found is = (BISCO)=20 which contains calcium. It becomes superconductive near the range in = which a=20 "really cold" CF cell is anticipated to be run.
 
2) Calcium in the periodic table is THE element with the highest = atomic=20 mass in which p=3Dn  ...  which is to say that the number of = protons in=20 the nucleus is perfectly balanced by the number of neutrons. See 5) = below.
 
3) In 1992, Superconductivity was discovered in calcium-doped = C60=20
by Kortan, et al. at low temperature.  The Ca metal atoms in a = ratio of=20 about 4-1(or more) diffuse into tetrahedral interstitial sites of the = C60 bucky=20 ball but not into the central cavity, which could still accommodate = several D2=20 molecules.
 
4) Superconductivity arising between pairs of electrons (referred = to as=20 "Cooper pairs") is fairly well-know; but less well known is that=20 superconductivity is also realized in atomic nuclei, where a strong = correlation=20 analogous to Cooper pairing arises. Are the two factors interconnected = (i.e.=20 does nucleon superconductivity presage Cooper pairing? And if so, is = item 2)=20 relevant to why calcium seems to be the best choice for getting HTSC = into C-60=20 ?
 
5) About 10 years ago two enigmatic engineers (Cooley and Bennett ) = proposed to use fullerenes as a CF matrix. They tried to = raise=20 capital, apparently with little success. Then the company seems to have=20 disappeared from the horizon (or moved to Oregon) without much in = the way=20 of reported progress. The former web site seems to have been taken over = by=20 Chinese video-gamers. Probably a bad sign, but did they even know about = the=20 connection to HTSC? If they did not, that could have been their basis = for their=20 problem. C-60 could be an ideal matrix BUT only if it can be made=20 superconductive.
 
Don't be surprised if Mark Goldes knows the answer....
 
6) C-60 is commercially available, and will always be = cheap and=20 available compared to Pd... plus, inter-calcating is relatively=20 simple.
 
7) As an alternative to C-60, does an Ultraconductor (TM) have any=20 potential to absorb D2, or can C-60 be incorporated into an  = Ultraconductor=20 (TM) without destroying its properties ?
 
The unknown questions are:
 
1) will the inter-calcated C-60 material still absorb D2?
 
2) will the "loaded and inter-calcated" C-60 membrane be=20 superconductive at minus 154 F and most of all, will it be structurally = sound=20 ?
 
3) Of course, overriding this whole inquiry, is HTSC = absolutely=20 necessary in the active area ?
 
Jones
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_0068_01C4C4B7.77D7B0E0-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Nov 7 10:57:23 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iA7IvJK4008097; Sun, 7 Nov 2004 10:57:19 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iA7Iuvi6007938; Sun, 7 Nov 2004 10:56:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 10:56:57 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <410-220041107175550300@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Electronium-Electron Clustering Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 11:55:50 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9404626fc695415e24da674b8bf8b8ee88c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.117.198 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56370 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII As previously stated, the disk or loop particles (when spins are parallel) have a 1/r^2 Attracting Magnetic Field Equal to the Repelling (1/r^2) Electrostatic Field, hence, free electrons can collide and bounce off one another regardless of spin: Fm = 1.0e-7* (q*c)^2/r^2 = Fes = kq^2/r^2 (2.304e-28 newtons at one meter separation). If this is correct, "seeding" of Electron Clusters by the (*e-) entity is possible. String Lineup B Units Attracting - q Units Repelling Ext Electron (*e-) 3 1 (*e-) + e- 4 2 (* e- ) + 2 e- 5 3 (*e-) + 3 e- 6 4 (*e-) + 4 e- 7 5 (*e-) + 5 e- 8 6 Etc. IOW, there is always 2 units more of magnetic force greater than the electrostatic repelling force. Substantiated by Ken Shoulders' EVOs - Charge Clusters? Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
As previously stated, the disk or loop particles (when spins are parallel) have a
1/r^2 Attracting Magnetic  Field Equal to the Repelling (1/r^2) Electrostatic Field,
hence, free electrons can collide and bounce off one another regardless of spin:
 
Fm = 1.0e-7* (q*c)^2/r^2 =  Fes = kq^2/r^2     (2.304e-28 newtons at one meter separation).
 
If this is correct, "seeding" of Electron Clusters by the (*e-) entity is possible.
 
String Lineup      B   Units  Attracting     - q Units Repelling  Ext Electron
 
(*e-)                                     3                                               1
 
(*e-) + e-                             4                                               2
 
(* e- ) + 2 e-                        5                                               3
 
(*e-) + 3 e-                           6                                              4
 
(*e-) + 4 e-                           7                                               5
 
(*e-) + 5 e-                           8                                               6
 
Etc.
 
IOW, there is always 2 units more of magnetic force greater than the electrostatic
repelling force.  Substantiated by Ken Shoulders' EVOs - Charge Clusters?
 
Frederick
 
                               
 
               
 
               
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Nov 7 14:25:57 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iA7MPnK4025381; Sun, 7 Nov 2004 14:25:49 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iA7MPfvj025333; Sun, 7 Nov 2004 14:25:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 14:25:41 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: FZNIDARSIC@aol.com Message-ID: <143.37e87c11.2ebffadd@aol.com> Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 17:25:33 EST Subject: Re: The Bucky-Cal LENR Matrix To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_143.37e87c11.2ebffadd_boundary" X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6808 Resent-Message-ID: <4jK-cD.A.xLG.kDqjBB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56371 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --part1_143.37e87c11.2ebffadd_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/7/2004 1:51:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, jonesb9@pacbell.net writes: > Buckyballs (fullerenes or C-60) are a potential matrix for LENR, but C-60 > is not superconductive by itself - should that factor be deemed to be > important. > Palladium adsorbs atomic hydrogen. Buckyballs adsorb molecular hydrogen. I big difference. Atomic hydrogen would react with carbon. I do not believe that molecular hydrogen is involved in the reaction. Frank Z --part1_143.37e87c11.2ebffadd_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 11/7/2004 1:51:5= 1 PM Eastern Standard Time, jonesb9@pacbell.net writes:

Buckyballs (fullerenes or C-60)= are a potential matrix for LENR, but C-60 is not superconductive by itself=20= - should that factor be deemed to be important.


Palladium adsorbs atomic hydrogen.

Buckyballs adsorb molecular hydrogen.

I big difference.  Atomic hydrogen would react with carbon.

I do not believe that molecular hydrogen is involved in the reaction.

Frank Z --part1_143.37e87c11.2ebffadd_boundary-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Nov 7 15:43:07 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iA7Nh0YF025788; Sun, 7 Nov 2004 15:43:04 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iA7NgtME025733; Sun, 7 Nov 2004 15:42:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 15:42:55 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <418EB330.4090203@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Sun, 07 Nov 2004 18:43:44 -0500 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040804 Netscape/7.2 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l Subject: ICCF11 Results Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56372 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed & Ed, ICCF10 was phenomenal in that working demonstrations of LENR-CANR cells were demonstrated. Was there anything as exciting at ICCF11? From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Nov 7 15:44:23 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iA7NiCYF026107; Sun, 7 Nov 2004 15:44:12 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iA7NiAK8026082; Sun, 7 Nov 2004 15:44:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 15:44:10 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Originating-IP: [4.243.158.41] X-Originating-Email: [mgoldes@msn.com] X-Sender: mgoldes@msn.com From: "Mark Goldes" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Cc: jonesb9@pacbell.net Subject: Re: A different "lead" to OU Date: Sun, 07 Nov 2004 15:43:15 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 07 Nov 2004 23:44:04.0574 (UTC) FILETIME=[AA598FE0:01C4C523] Resent-Message-ID: <2RtmiC.A.eXG.KNrjBB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56373 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones, RayOVac said nothing about the chemistry of their cells. But, at the time, that was pretty much open book material I believe. Sorry I cannot be of more help. Mark >From: "Jones Beene" >Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >To: >Subject: Re: A different "lead" to OU >Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 11:40:13 -0800 > >Mark, > >Thanks for the information. I had a feeling that if there >was anything to Newman's claim that you would have been >there long ago. I take it that you saw zero credibility in >his claims? > >But actually, the fact that he was using alkaline batteries >is some of his early work might also bolster the suggestion >that IF he had any hint of OU in that early work - that >electronium might have played a role. This is because >alkaline cells had some lead content before there was a big >push to get rid of it. Did RayOVac give any hint of the >makeup of their cells? Of course mercury, cadmium and zinc >might also end up being electronium concentrators as well, > >...and of course, this line of reasoning which implicates >lead as the source of any OU (which was somewhat hastily put >together this morning) may be totally in error. That is the >most likely choice. Still, it would be very interesting to >compare lead capacitance in two tank circuits - one where >the lead was definitely not derived from U decay and the >other where the lead definitely was a product of U decay - > >That would be a test, where if there was no difference in >the two... at least it would cause this observer at least to >quell his enthusiasm for finding electronium in the most >likely place - which then might further indicate that the >particle itself is imaginary. > >Matter of fact... if it there were some stronger evidence >against it being real, I would get a lot sounder sleep these >days.... > >Jones > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Nov 7 15:54:14 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iA7Ns8YF032626; Sun, 7 Nov 2004 15:54:08 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iA7Ns6sf032608; Sun, 7 Nov 2004 15:54:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 15:54:06 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Originating-IP: [4.243.158.41] X-Originating-Email: [mgoldes@msn.com] X-Sender: mgoldes@msn.com From: "Mark Goldes" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Cc: jonesb9@pacbell.net Subject: RE: The Bucky-Cal LENR Matrix Date: Sun, 07 Nov 2004 15:53:01 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 07 Nov 2004 23:54:00.0943 (UTC) FILETIME=[0DD03FF0:01C4C525] Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56374 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones, VO, C60 can be a superconductor -- even at room temperature if prepared in accord with methods developed by Peter (Guomeng) Zhao, and an associate, described in Patent Application WO 2004/015786 A2 and the U.S. parallel. Mark >From: "Jones Beene" >Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >To: >Subject: The Bucky-Cal LENR Matrix >Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 10:49:34 -0800 > >or... What happens when the C-60 fullerene inter-calcates... and absorbs >D2? > >Mention has been made of some surprising correlations between high >temperature superconductivity and cold fusion. More on that later, but >assuming that there is some overlap, what is the best proton conductive >active membrane to use if one wishes to try to perform "really cold fusion" >(i.e. minus 154 F)? > >The "matrix" in which LENR reactions can occur may end up being the >deciding factor as to whether the technology can be commercialized. >Consequently every promising avenue should be pursued, and many materials >have been mentioned. > >Buckyballs (fullerenes or C-60) are a potential matrix for LENR, but C-60 >is not superconductive by itself - should that factor be deemed to be >important. > >Titanium or nickel might work, but some questions have arisen about their >ability to absorb D2 at high ratios and still retain structural integrity >at low temperatures, and there is no real evidence that either hydride is >superconductive at any temperature, unlike Pd. > >Both Pd and palladium hydrides are superconductive at low temperature. Here >is a this known factoid, should CF ever make it to "trivial pursuit" status >- Laufer's "Theory of superconductivity in palladium-noble-metal hydrides" >actually preceded P&F by three years ! Also it should be noted that *high >internal effective pressure* has the same entropy reducing properties as >cold temperature, but with Pd the loading ration must get to 1:1 before >this becomes a factor. > >It is also relevant to note these other inter-related factoids, which are >surrounding the four seemingly unrelated technologies: LENR, HTSC, >bucky-balls, and calcium - and which might enter into the quest for a >better "matrix" for LENR - other than the expensive and rare palladium, and >assuming that neither Ti nor Ni perform well at cryogenic temps: > >1) One of the best high-temperature (HTSC) materials yet found is (BISCO) >which contains calcium. It becomes superconductive near the range in which >a "really cold" CF cell is anticipated to be run. > >2) Calcium in the periodic table is THE element with the highest atomic >mass in which p=n ... which is to say that the number of protons in the >nucleus is perfectly balanced by the number of neutrons. See 5) below. > >3) In 1992, Superconductivity was discovered in calcium-doped C60 >by Kortan, et al. at low temperature. The Ca metal atoms in a ratio of >about 4-1(or more) diffuse into tetrahedral interstitial sites of the C60 >bucky ball but not into the central cavity, which could still accommodate >several D2 molecules. > >4) Superconductivity arising between pairs of electrons (referred to as >"Cooper pairs") is fairly well-know; but less well known is that >superconductivity is also realized in atomic nuclei, where a strong >correlation analogous to Cooper pairing arises. Are the two factors >interconnected (i.e. does nucleon superconductivity presage Cooper pairing? >And if so, is item 2) relevant to why calcium seems to be the best choice >for getting HTSC into C-60 ? > >5) About 10 years ago two enigmatic engineers (Cooley and Bennett ) >proposed to use fullerenes as a CF matrix. They tried to raise capital, >apparently with little success. Then the company seems to have disappeared >from the horizon (or moved to Oregon) without much in the way of reported >progress. The former web site seems to have been taken over by Chinese >video-gamers. Probably a bad sign, but did they even know about the >connection to HTSC? If they did not, that could have been their basis for >their problem. C-60 could be an ideal matrix BUT only if it can be made >superconductive. > >Don't be surprised if Mark Goldes knows the answer.... > >6) C-60 is commercially available, and will always be cheap and available >compared to Pd... plus, inter-calcating is relatively simple. > >7) As an alternative to C-60, does an Ultraconductor (TM) have any >potential to absorb D2, or can C-60 be incorporated into an Ultraconductor >(TM) without destroying its properties ? > >The unknown questions are: > >1) will the inter-calcated C-60 material still absorb D2? > >2) will the "loaded and inter-calcated" C-60 membrane be superconductive at >minus 154 F and most of all, will it be structurally sound ? > >3) Of course, overriding this whole inquiry, is HTSC absolutely necessary >in the active area ? > >Jones > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Nov 7 17:31:43 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iA81VWam003962; Sun, 7 Nov 2004 17:31:32 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iA81VUQJ003954; Sun, 7 Nov 2004 17:31:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 17:31:30 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <003101c4c532$6da84f00$d0bcfea9@jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <418EB330.4090203@rtpatlanta.com> Subject: Re: ICCF11 Results Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 17:29:43 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56375 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Terry Blanton asks > ICCF10 was phenomenal in that working demonstrations of LENR-CANR cells > were demonstrated. Was there anything as exciting at ICCF11? Naudin has updated his site with many impressive slides of the Mizuno presentation and that of Cirrillo showing massive nuclear transmutation. One interesting point is that there is significant transmutation WITHOUT excess heat and in some case endotherm... go figure. http://jlnlabs.imars.com/cfr/ From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Nov 7 18:09:53 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iA829num005753; Sun, 7 Nov 2004 18:09:50 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iA829lZF005742; Sun, 7 Nov 2004 18:09:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 18:09:47 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: FZNIDARSIC@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 21:09:37 EST Subject: Re: The Bucky-Cal LENR Matrix To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_cd.1acc780a.2ec02f61_boundary" X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6808 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56376 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --part1_cd.1acc780a.2ec02f61_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/7/2004 7:50:22 PM Eastern Standard Time, mgoldes@msn.com writes: > 3) Of course, overriding this whole inquiry, is HTSC absolutely necessary > >in the active area ? > > > >Jones > > > I have ideas on this but I will not reveal them. I will reveal, however, of what good is cryogenic cold fusion...nuclear waste reduction. Frank Z --part1_cd.1acc780a.2ec02f61_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 11/7/2004 7:50:2= 2 PM Eastern Standard Time, mgoldes@msn.com writes:

3) Of course, overriding this w= hole inquiry, is HTSC absolutely necessary
>in the active area ?
>
>Jones
>


I have ideas on this but I will not reveal them.  I will reveal, howeve= r, of what good is cryogenic cold fusion...nuclear waste reduction.

Frank Z --part1_cd.1acc780a.2ec02f61_boundary-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Nov 7 18:17:23 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iA82HGam021055; Sun, 7 Nov 2004 18:17:17 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iA82HGM6021049; Sun, 7 Nov 2004 18:17:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 18:17:16 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <418ED75A.6080206@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Sun, 07 Nov 2004 21:18:02 -0500 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040804 Netscape/7.2 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: ICCF11 Results References: <418EB330.4090203@rtpatlanta.com> <003101c4c532$6da84f00$d0bcfea9@jonesb9pacbell> In-Reply-To: <003101c4c532$6da84f00$d0bcfea9@jonesb9pacbell> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56377 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: >One interesting point is that there is significant >transmutation WITHOUT excess heat and in some case >endotherm... go figure. > A *net* reduction in entropy? Is nothing sacred? From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Nov 8 08:44:13 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iA8Gi0gd006815; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 08:44:04 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iA8GhwGG006801; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 08:43:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 08:43:58 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <04df01c4c5b1$e7aa56c0$d0bcfea9@jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <418EB330.4090203@rtpatlanta.com> <003101c4c532$6da84f00$d0bcfea9@jonesb9pacbell> <418ED75A.6080206@rtpatlanta.com> Subject: Re: ICCF11 Results Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 08:42:14 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56378 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: From: Terry Blanton (in reference of the elebaorate Mizuno presentation, which immediate appeared in great detail on Naudin's web-site) > A *net* reduction in entropy? Is nothing sacred? Not to Naudin, that is for sure. I am curious whether Jed or any of the other vortex attendees had occassion to meet Naudin? He certainly has his "ear to the ground" like no other free-energy researcher on the planet, and despite allegations of being more copy-cat that creative genius (probably he is a good helping of both), he must be well-funded... which in France, often means that the *bureaucracy* is somehow involved... after all, they not only invented the term and perfected the institution to its ultimate stage of usefulness (or "maximum emmerdement," shall we say)... in effect the bureaucracy is the French national condescension to Communist ideals, which surely would have taken root without it as an weighty counterbalance - IOW a patronizing gesture has now become a dominant way of life... and not a bad one... nor an efficient one either. Of course, "Naudin" like the more infamous and infinitely more boring Professor Nicholas Bourbaki, could end up being not a single person at all, but a dedicated group of experimenters(doubtful), but ... as they say in "Private Eye", ....I think we should be told *-) Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Nov 8 09:14:50 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iA8HEgrM025539; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 09:14:47 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iA8HEGE8025388; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 09:14:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 09:14:16 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <04e801c4c5b6$210964c0$d0bcfea9@jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: Subject: Naudin, Langmuir, Frolov musings Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 09:12:29 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56379 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Speaking of the Naudin website... in all its glory and amazing diversity (and about the only thing in life which, at my age is an item of "lust" anymore - IOW wouldn't it be great to have such a web-site -along with an Edisonian-type staff to keep it going, but...all-in-all, it should be a consortium put together with a bit less "gullibility" shall we say.... .... and since we are already knee-deep in "pathological science"... You may remember this poser from a year ago: "Which is hotter - a.) burning hydrogen in oxygen, or b.) burning hydrogen in hydrogen?" Well, once again Naudin has managed to provide an answer, of sorts - this time in conjunction with the equally controversial Alex Frolov. See: http://jlnlabs.imars.com/mahg/mahg1.htm Which is a fairly elaborate experiment, apparently built by Frolov in Russia to the specs of one "Nicholas Moller" (probably part of the Naudin collective) and claimed to be showing a steady-state OU of 130% (COP =1.3) and higher on startup. It is based on the experiments of Langmuir, the inventor of a hydrogen "torch" as well as being the author of the most famous derogatory putdown imaginable to us perpmos, that being the one known far and wide as "pathological science." Anyway, here is the inconclusive answer to the poser above, from a previous post. I hope to revise this post soon, in light of the implications of electronium (so you can set your spam filter accordingly), anyway from last year: If you answered b) then you may be thinking about the hydrino, OR are already aware of an energy "anomaly" discovered almost 90 years ago, but is it overunity? Ironically, Nobel chemist Irving Langmuir (1881-1957) was in the habit of giving cautionary talks on "pathological science", saying "There are cases where there is no dishonesty involved, but where people are tricked into false results by a lack of understanding about what human beings can do to themselves in the way of being led astray by subjective effects, wishful thinking, or threshold interactions. These are examples of pathological science." Apparently, he failed to issue a reciprocal warning for pathological obedience to instituionalized orthodoxy, and indeed he may have deliberately overlooked one of the first well-recorded instances of overunity - and in his own work! What should it be called, "pathological tunnel vision" or "pathological neo-cecity" (for those who appreciate 'le mot juste') ? The old anomaly in question involves the thermal dissociation of hydrogen in an electric arc, and it was discovered by none other than Irving Langmuir himself. He noticed that dissociation of H2 in an electric arc led to a much higher dissociation rate than one might expect on the basis of known thermodynamics. He invented a cutting torch based on this discovery, which is seldom used today because of another consideration (hydrogen embrittlement of steel). Here is a picture of the torch. http://www.lateralscience.co.uk/AtomicH/atomicH.html Despite the risk of promoting even more of the dreaded pathological science (at the expense of old Irv), there is a good case to be made for OU in this device. The "textbook" binding energy of the hydrogen molecule is 4.52 eV. If one compares the ratio of the dissociated molecules to that of nondissociated molecules in Langmuir's torch, it turns out that the effective binding energy works out to only a little over 1 eV for a substantial population of the molecules involved. Of course, the distribution is Maxwellian and we are only looking at that population on Boltzman's tail, but so what? The population of temporarily free protons is large (as much as a third, depending on assumptions) and the dissociation energy-deficit is so substantial that a "gateway" may exist for OU may here. Unfortunately, most of Langmuir's old articles like: "The Dissociation of Hydrogen Into Atoms," Journal of American Chemical Society 37, 417 (1915) are not available online. Apologists for this kind of energy deficit effect often use the term "borrowed" to explain it, but that explanation involves time-reversal which is only slightly more palatable to orthodoxy than is overunity. There is a lot of questionable information online about OU hydrogen plasmas like Professor Chernetskii's device (Hal Puthoff apparently visited Chernetskii in 1991 to witness the device maybe working, maybe not) and we all know about the Correa's "abnormal glow" but this is not intended to be a defense of that - only to offer a *non-hydrino* explanation, if any of these hydrogen plasma things ever turns out to be rock-solid proof of OU. The Langmuir torch suggests that the dissociation of the hydrogen molecule occurs with an "outside" or free-energy input of about 3.4 eV for a substantial percentage of the hydrogen molecules involved. This is a mass/energy level that keeps popping up over and over in reported free-energy anomalies, and it is related to a very real QM phenomenon - the energy of "virtual pairs". However, we know that even for the surprisingly long-lived virtual-pair molecule: positronium (Ps), the prospect of capturing positron free-energy from the vacuum seems pretty hopeless. Although this is true for the molecule itself, Heisenberg's door may be cracked open just far enough to admit, not the positron itself but its "wake". i.e. its 6.8 eV binding energy. This binding energy is but a tiny fraction of the positron or electron mass/energy of ~ .5 MeV, if they were to actually annihilate in our 3-space, but still it isn't too shabby, double what one gets from hydrogen/oxygen combustion. If it can be captured, it could be a consequence of positronium being disrupted by proximity to a bare proton before fading into someone else's 3-space. But why 3.4 eV and not 6.8 eV? Well, the best explanation for this that I can give at the moment is that we must assume that in every atom, there is a "medium" that keeps the electrons from collapse into the nucleus, and it is a gluon-like transfer medium. If so, in positronium it is probably a lepton pair with a mass/energy of 3.4 eV each which can either annihilate into a 6.8 eV photon, or preferentially be captured by any free proton, as a necessary predecessor event to molecular recombination. For more information (than anyone would ever need) on the effects of virtual positronium, check out the pubs of G.F. Gribakin http://www.am.qub.ac.uk/users/g.gribakin/GGpubl.html Jones BTW previous to this post, I had also posted (ranted) to vortex on the well-known subject of: "A Trout in the Milk" which is an anti-skepticism rant... featuring our favorite old time chameleon, Irving Langmuir. "Some circumstantial evidence is very strong, as when you find a trout in the milk" - Henry Thoreau From: http://www.alternativescience.com/chapter%2011.htm On his website, Richard Milton has some stories about examples of so-called 'pathological science' from several generations ago. One self-appointed expert on such things in the 1930s, was Nobelist Irving Langmuir - and as it turns out, things then were not too different from today - except that today's tunnel-blind gadfly, Bob Park, gets no prize other than the potential to win, hands down, that unwanted award for pig-headed ignominy - when and if LENR succeeds in opening up new vistas for alternative energy... Among the examples of pathological science, according to Langmuir were a number of related experiments carried out around 1930 at Columbia University by Professor Bergen Davis and his colleague Dr Arthur Barnes. The implications of these experiments with alpha particles and electrons purposefully designed to explore energy levels around 54.4 eV attracted wide attention in the physics community of the day, until Langmuir exposed some sloppiness in one version of the experiments. Langmuir did use a little trickery to get a short -term laugh, but the end-result of the whole episode look very different today because of the findings from any number of sophisticated "merged-beam" experiments that largely corroborate Davis/Barnes. BTW, one recent conclusion of merged beam experiments goes something like "While the ionization cross section for hydrogen and helium have been exhaustively investigated, uncertainties still remain concerning the mechanisms that are important at energies *near the threshold* for this fundamental process." Seventy years and we are still not sure about the simplest of all ionization mechanisms!! If the importance of those threshold levels in the context of LENR are not clear to the reader by now, then nothing else that follows will make sense either. "What goes around, comes around..." - Every Temporarily Disenfranchised Optimist since Ptolemy Many moderately mis-informed skeptics, even recently, are quoting the Davis/ Barnes incident as evidence of the problems that ensue from letting personal beliefs overwhelm observational evidence. BUT because Davis and Barnes were later largely proven correct in the bulk of their assertions, the final results of Langmuir's intrusion serves mainly to undercut the whole rationale of scientific skepticism. No one knows how much progress was lost or delayed by the unnecessary controversy- which was not about results but techniques. Whether or not Langmuir's trickery really proves the evils of self-deception or the evils of skepticism is an open question. In truth, the bottom line may yet prove that Langmuir himself was little more than a half-sighted flounderer who should be scaled clean of his prize, particularly if indeed his efforts to expose "pathological science" actually resulted in the postponement for seventy years of the early evidence of several unusual energy phenomena of great importance. That leads up to this curious note on the Davis-Barnes experiments at 54.4 eV, especially with respect to Randell Mills ideas: maybe Mill's is only partially correct and the main thing he got right was the importance of photons in multiples of 13.6 eV in many anomalous quasi-nuclear processes of light nuclei. Perhaps the mysterious hydrino may end up looking more like "disappearance into a 4D wormhole" than mere shrinkage, and perhaps even at least one mechanism of stellar energy production may involve mass exchanges with a fourth spatial dimension (shades of ZPE). I wonder if the percentage of scintillations that didn't get deflected by the magnet during the D&B calibration could have been related to reactions involving anomalous energy EUV photons. That is, something akin to shrunken hydrogen, the reaction Randell Mills says happens when hydrogen gets in proximity with "holes" or "energy deficits" which are multiple of 13.6 eV. But maybe the correct concept is 13.6*Z^2 - and that is exactly the issue that Davis and Barnes would have pursued, but for Langmuir .... And whether it all relates to Mills is far from certain. It certainly falls far outside of Mills' CQM theory, but Mills may not have all the answers... The only certainty is that the older research shouldn't have gotten quashed by Langmuir's misdirected self-righteousness and more importantly - the world in 2072 will be better off if the nay-sayers of today like Bob Park, Taubes, Close, and their ilk should volunteer for an unceremonious version of 1st amendment hari-kari tongue removal. Occasionally, perhaps, looking back at older reported phenomena with a new perspective offers insight. OTOH, it should be mentioned that maybe this particular incident is not really the prized trout... perhaps instead it's just a red herring... From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Nov 8 10:35:18 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iA8IZ7rM030288; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 10:35:12 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iA8IZ6bK030262; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 10:35:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 10:35:06 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=dkY1AFuNf7YuzqzyqM+gEDsXVLha6Ggb3ijZuJb4GeiB8tcR1w461sWcLz1cvsPTP6dpFnYssE5TDrPj1ZHOzrg1OJf3tPt4912NBEUPZ6PZyuh0YT+1U5oCvh1oj2XQHug9isv/s+GOo1Jb14Vg20Mxnq7t9bNd0v+bKRJl6r0= ; Message-ID: <20041108183503.27832.qmail@web20825.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 10:35:03 -0800 (PST) From: george hadle Subject: Graham Gunderson To: vortex-L@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56380 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hello, Does anyone remember a man named Graham Gunderson who used to post to this list? The year was probably 2000. I've recently found that he wrote many interesting things on other groups and he mentioned this one in passing. Thanks George __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Nov 8 11:01:39 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iA8J1FDV025246; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 11:01:15 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iA8J1CHs025167; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 11:01:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 11:01:12 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Originating-IP: [4.243.128.88] X-Originating-Email: [mgoldes@msn.com] X-Sender: mgoldes@msn.com From: "Mark Goldes" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Cc: ckreol1@yahoo.com Subject: RE: Graham Gunderson Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2004 11:00:58 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 08 Nov 2004 19:01:02.0011 (UTC) FILETIME=[4A5DD8B0:01C4C5C5] Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56381 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi George, Graham works full-time for Magnetic Power Inc., and has for more than two years. His work will not be public again until patent applications or patents are published in the future. Mark Chairman & CEO Magnetic Power Inc. >From: george hadle >Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >To: vortex-L@eskimo.com >Subject: Graham Gunderson >Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 10:35:03 -0800 (PST) > >Hello, >Does anyone remember a man named Graham Gunderson who >used to post to this list? The year was probably >2000. >I've recently found that he wrote many interesting >things on other groups and he mentioned this one in >passing. >Thanks >George > > > >__________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. >www.yahoo.com > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Nov 9 07:38:46 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iA9FcfAl031162; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 07:38:41 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iA9FcdIe031140; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 07:38:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 07:38:39 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <410-220041129143729870@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: RE: The Bucky-Cal LENR Matrix Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 08:37:29 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94018dd4b04625588c3649d4332c3d4682f350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.117.22 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56382 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Along the lines that Jones Beene brought up. If one subjected a wood dowel to a hydrostatic pressure of 15-20 kilobar (easily obtainable with a grease gun) while heating it to the ~ 500 deg F charring temperature, it should maintain "fullerene" type cells. Then following drying pressurize the "charcoal" rod in the pressurizing tube with H2 or D2 gas then weighing it to see if it stores the gas. I have a heavy wall steel "chamber" about 1.25 inch dia by ~ 3.0 inch long with wrench flats on one end (1/2 inch fpt on one end) on hand that will take 20 kpsi, and hold a 2 inch x ~ 1/2 inch diameter dowel, if anyone wants to try this. "Dope" the water with CO2-Calcium Carbonate or Potassium Carbonate before pressurizing too? It might be possible to drive a nail or such into the dowel before processing to act as an electrode connection after "firing" it for CF experiments. Cheap grease guns can be got at your local auto-parts store. I only do "thought experiments" :-) Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

Along the lines that Jones Beene brought up.
 
If one subjected a wood dowel to a hydrostatic pressure
of 15-20 kilobar (easily obtainable with a grease gun) while heating it
to the ~ 500 deg F charring temperature, it should maintain "fullerene" type
cells.
 
Then following drying pressurize the "charcoal" rod in the pressurizing tube
with H2 or D2 gas then weighing it to see if it stores the gas.
 
I have a heavy wall steel "chamber" about 1.25 inch dia by ~ 3.0 inch long
with wrench flats on one end (1/2 inch fpt on one end) on hand that will
take 20 kpsi, and hold a 2 inch x ~ 1/2 inch diameter dowel, if anyone wants to try this.
 
"Dope" the water with CO2-Calcium Carbonate or Potassium Carbonate before pressurizing too?
 
It might be possible to drive a nail or such into the dowel before processing
to act as an electrode connection after "firing" it for CF experiments.
 
Cheap grease guns can be got at your local auto-parts store.
 
I only do "thought experiments"  :-)
 
Frederick
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Nov 9 09:01:59 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iA9H1oAl030476; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 09:01:50 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iA9H1mhU030452; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 09:01:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 09:01:48 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <006c01c4c67d$8e0c5100$d0bcfea9@jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: Subject: The Problem of finding slight excess mass Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 09:00:02 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0069_01C4C63A.7F845BC0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56383 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0069_01C4C63A.7F845BC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Is the "bump" on the chart of slide 6 of this PPT document evidence for = Helectronium, instead of residual D2 ? http://www.frascati.enea.it/nhe/link%20spettrometria.ppt No, it is not.=20 Let me say that up front, so as not to be misunderstood. This slide = could be analogized to a "false positive." But it is exactly the kind of = chart which I was looking for, so it created quite a flash of hope - = followed by disappointment, following a deeper evaluation. IOW while = being exactly the type of evidence which I was seeking, the horizontal = scale is off by a factor of about 10 compared to that which is needed. = Even more disturbing is the fact that the instrument used here, which is = state of the art, and in a system with perhaps a 7 figure price tag, = simply does not have enough resolution to find what we are hoping to = find: that being the heavy electron: electronium - and particularly = finding it unequivocally in a mass-spec, where it will likely be bound = to helium in the form of what we are calling "helectronium." So it may = take a few years for enough precision in the instrumentation to come = along in order to find this.=20 The larger question being, can vortex stand that much extra = bandwidth until this thing is finally discovered ? BTW this is a "PPT" or "PowerPoint" file. Microsoft power point is a = part of "Office" so if you don't have MS Office it will hard to view, as = the "google cache" doesn't show anything. Anyway the slide presentation describes the very complex and accurate mass spectrometer system put together by ENEA, the Italian National Agency for New Technologies, a divisions of the famous Frascati national Lab. http://www.enea.it/com/ingl/default.htm The mass spectrometer system was designed to find and document 4-He coming off of cold fusion experiments, and to distinguish that from = deuterium, both of which have a mass near 4 amu. The problem is that D2 and 4-He have very similar masses, the difference being only 6 parts = per thousand. Even after carefully scrubbing and gettering the CF cell = output gas ahead of this instrument, so as to eliminate most of D2, = there will be some residual. Consequently, in the slide there is a = "bump" which is supposedly the remnants of D2 that couldn't be scrubbed. The expected mass difference of a single-substituted helectronium would = be 5 parts per ten thousand. You can see by mental substitution under = the He curve, that in the graph in question, this difference could not = be seen at this resolution even if it were present. Does anyone know of a higher resolution setup? Jones ------=_NextPart_000_0069_01C4C63A.7F845BC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Is the "bump" on the chart of slide 6 of this PPT document evidence = for=20 Helectronium, instead of residual D2 ?
 
http://= www.frascati.enea.it/nhe/link%20spettrometria.ppt
 
No, it is not.
 
Let me say that up front, so as not to be = misunderstood.  This=20 slide could be analogized to a "false positive." But it is exactly the = kind of=20 chart which I was looking for, so it created quite a flash of hope - = followed by=20 disappointment, following a deeper evaluation. IOW while being exactly = the type=20 of evidence which I was seeking, the horizontal scale is off by a factor = of=20 about 10 compared to that which is needed. Even more disturbing is the = fact that=20 the instrument used here, which is state of the art, and in a system = with=20 perhaps a 7 figure price tag, simply does not have enough resolution to = find=20 what we are hoping to find: that being the heavy electron: electronium - = and=20 particularly finding it unequivocally in a mass-spec, where it will = likely be=20 bound to helium in the form of what we are calling "helectronium." So it = may=20 take a few years for enough precision in the instrumentation to = come along=20 in order to find this.
 
The larger question <G> being, can vortex stand that much = extra=20 bandwidth until this thing is finally discovered ?
 
BTW this is a "PPT"  or "PowerPoint" file. Microsoft power = point is a=20 part of "Office" so if you don't have MS Office it will hard to view, as = the=20 "google cache" doesn't show anything.

Anyway the slide = presentation=20 describes the very complex and
accurate mass spectrometer system put = together=20 by ENEA, the
Italian National Agency for New Technologies, a = divisions=20 of
the famous Frascati national Lab.

http://www.enea.it/com/i= ngl/default.htm

The=20 mass spectrometer system was designed to find and document = 4-He
coming off of=20 cold fusion experiments, and to distinguish that from deuterium, both of = which=20 have a mass near 4 amu. The problem is that
D2 and 4-He have very = similar=20 masses, the difference being only 6 parts per thousand.  Even = after=20 carefully scrubbing and gettering the CF cell output gas ahead of this=20 instrument, so as to eliminate most of D2, there will be some residual.=20 Consequently, in the slide there is a "bump" which is supposedly the = remnants of=20 D2 that couldn't be scrubbed.

The expected mass difference of a single-substituted = helectronium=20 would be 5 parts per ten thousand. You can see by mental substitution = under the=20 He curve, that in the graph in question, this difference could not = be seen=20 at this resolution even if it were present.
 
Does anyone know of a higher resolution setup?
 
Jones


------=_NextPart_000_0069_01C4C63A.7F845BC0-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Nov 9 12:44:26 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iA9KiH8q013369; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 12:44:22 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iA9KiC5f013312; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 12:44:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 12:44:12 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <410-22004112919431140@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Finding Electroniumized Helium & Other Atoms Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 13:43:01 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94099e6d7d572b50cd421b3ea3d4c10a9e7350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.162.153 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56384 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Despite Jones' despair in finding Electronium. :-) IF the Electronium (*e-) attaches an electron (as it should) in the helium atom it's charge is now 2 e- with a mass of 3 times the electron mass and it should orbit the helium close in making it a neutral particle or WIMP. OTOH, if it captures a second electron [(*e-) + 2 e] it's charge is now 3 e- and it's mass is 4 times the electron mass and it will orbit the helium closer still, but, it will act as a helium ion with charge minus 1 e, allowing detection in a "reversed" mass spectrometer. The multiply charged (*e-) "strings" can also explain "endothermic" CF transmutation reactions; the fractional orbit energy of the " multiply electroniumized" nuclei is comparable to the binding energy of the newly formed isotopes. Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

Despite Jones' despair in finding Electronium.  :-)
 
IF the Electronium (*e-) attaches an electron (as it should) in the helium atom it's charge is now 2 e- with a
mass of 3 times the electron mass and it should orbit the helium close in making it a neutral particle
or WIMP.
 
OTOH, if it captures a second electron [(*e-) + 2 e] it's charge is now 3 e- and it's mass is 4 times
the electron mass and it will orbit the helium closer still, but, it will act as a helium ion with charge minus  1 e,
allowing detection in a "reversed" mass spectrometer.
 
The multiply charged (*e-) "strings" can also explain  "endothermic" CF transmutation reactions;
the fractional orbit energy of the " multiply electroniumized" nuclei is comparable to the binding
energy of the newly formed  isotopes.
 
Frederick
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Nov 9 13:59:02 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iA9Lwt8q005761; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 13:58:55 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iA9LwrVb005737; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 13:58:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 13:58:53 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.1.2.0.2.20041109160514.0339c030@mail.lenr-canr.org> X-Sender: log733sup@lenr-canr.org@mail.lenr-canr.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.2.0 Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 16:19:54 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: ICCF-11, Szpak, Naudin, etc. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56385 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Greetings all. I am back after being a tourist in Paris for two days. I have not been a tourist since I was a kid. It is a strange experience. Stan Szpak, Pam Boss and Frank Gordon have been doing great things, and I think Frank gave me a CD-ROM, but I am distressed to report I cannot find it. I am bad that keeping track of physical objects, and apparently I did not give it to my wife for safekeeping in time. It is very difficult to get researchers to hand over data, because they are so busy and forgetful. I fear it will be another year before they give me another copy. No wait . . . Newflash: Pam just sent me two files. I hope this was everything from the disk. I have other CD-ROMs from Bensen & Passell, more ICCF-9 papers from Li, and many PowerPoint slides from ICCF-11. I will be uploading all of this as soon as I can, but it is chaotic, with strange filenames and papers that badly need a little touching up and editing -- such as the author and title added. The files must be entered into our EndNote files, before I can upload them. That can sometimes be challenging, especially when you have no idea whose presentation it is. I will try to upload Iwamura's slides soon before I get the other ones straightened out. Iwamura has made outstanding progress. If this were not cold fusion he would be a shoo-in for the Nobel Prize. I am not exaggerating. Not only does he have new experimental results, but he has excellent political news. His results will soon be verified by Tokyo University and by Japan Synchrotron Radiation Research Institute (JASRI), SPring-8 facility (http://www.spring8.or.jp/e/index.html). In Japan, an official statement or publication from Tokyo University would be regarded as more authoritative than God, and Tokyo University has been the leading opponent of the field from the beginning, much as the DOE has been in the US. I admit it sounds dramatic and implausible, but I think this may lead to total political victory. Iwamura himself is sanguine, and he expects everything to go smoothly. He dismisses previous political opposition from Tokyo university in part because he himself is a graduate from there, and I get a sense he trusts the old-boy network. In the closing summary of the conference, Ed Storms said he regards the transmutation results as a diversion from excess heat, which is the commercial useful aspect of cold fusion. I agree with him that it is a diversion from the engineering point of view. The excess heat is probably much more valuable for the human race, although perhaps in the distant future we will have industrial scale transmutation. However, it seems to me the transmutations must be some sort of important clue for the theorists. I wouldn't know about theory, but they certainly seem baffling & dramatic, and the results are clearcut and 100% replicatable. Also, if transmutations can convince the scientific establishment that cold fusion is real, it will solve all of our problems, so bring on transmutations! There was an excellent replication of the Ohmori Mizuno glow discharge experiment. The presentation was made by Cirillo in Italian, with Mastromatteo translating, but Cirillo talked with such such gusto, enthusiasm and clarity I felt I understood it directly. This is a difficult experiment and they have done what looks like a superb job to me. It is a little difficult to judge at first glance, because they are during difficult things such as measuring the temperature of the glow discharge and finding transmuted elements, but Mizuno is also enthusiastic about it, and he has been advising them. See: http://www.progettomeg.it/FFredda.htm http://www.progettomeg.it/all/Electroplasma-eng.pdf Someone here asked about Naudin. Mizuno and I had grave reservations about his calorimetry when he first announced his Ohmori-Mizuno replication. I believe we discussed the problem here. I do not recall the details. In any case, he has consulted with Mizuno extensively, and he revised the calorimetry. I believe it is now conventional in every respect, and the instruments are improved. The excess heat is still there, so this looks like a good replication. Another group in Japan is also working on this experiment. I hope they report soon. I doubt that Naudin has anything like official support. His web page is much too informal, and he is not published any journal papers as far as I know. He attended the conference but he did not present anything, or put up a poster session. He seems competent, and he is a nice fellow. Jones Beene described him here as perhaps, "being more copy-cat that creative genius." If so, we need a few hundred more copy-cats in this field. The problem is finding copycats who now what experiment is worth copying. Mike McKubre gave an excellent talk, which I hope to transcribe soon, in which he said there have been very few real replications. I agree completely and it is a darn shame. He said the only real, full, engineering replication was Georges Lonchampt, Biberian, et al., who replicated F&P boil-off cells. I agree with that 100%. This is important work that has been overlooked. Lonchampt et al. did a superb job. With few resources, no muss and no fuss, they accomplished what the NHE failed to do with 20 million bucks. I would like to report more, but I am swamped with work. I expect hundreds of papers that need editing to appear in my inbox soon, and I would very much like to finish up this book, so I do not think I will have time to communicate for several weeks. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Nov 9 19:26:03 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAA3Pt0u003204; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 19:25:56 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAA3Pqn9003174; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 19:25:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 19:25:52 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000801c4c6d4$f4776bd0$e2027841@xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Words of encouragement Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 21:25:40 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0004_01C4C6A2.A95F8E70" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.8 required=4.0 tests=HTML_30_40,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: <_s9b7.A.ix._oYkBB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56386 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C4C6A2.A95F8E70 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0005_01C4C6A2.A95F8E70" ------=_NextPart_001_0005_01C4C6A2.A95F8E70 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankAlthough I am not a nuclear physicist I do appreciate the quest for = new technology for energy. Perhaps a bit of good news helps . Our company had it's first successful testing of a design we have = labored many dark nights toward for 14 years. All the times we felt like = throwing in the towel and after all the investment we saw a tiny advance = in our goal of a radical new technology for treating seawater using the = vortex created by our induction feeder mixers. Whoopee !! To each of you that labor in your respective technologies.. NEVER QUIT ! = No matter how dark the nights. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0005_01C4C6A2.A95F8E70 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Although I am not a nuclear physicist I do = appreciate=20 the quest for new technology for energy. Perhaps a bit of good news = helps=20 .
 
Our company had it's first successful testing = of a=20 design we have labored many dark nights toward for 14 years. All the = times we=20 felt like throwing in the towel and after all the investment we saw a = tiny=20 advance in our goal of a radical new technology for treating seawater = using the=20 vortex created by our induction feeder mixers. Whoopee !!
 
To each of you that labor in your respective=20 technologies.. NEVER QUIT ! No matter how dark the nights.
 
Richard
------=_NextPart_001_0005_01C4C6A2.A95F8E70-- ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C4C6A2.A95F8E70 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000301c4c6d4$f3ef5010$e2027841@xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C4C6A2.A95F8E70-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Nov 9 22:53:34 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAA6rRTA010356; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 22:53:28 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAA6rP8x010345; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 22:53:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 22:53:25 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner@mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 21:59:48 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Words of encouragement Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56387 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >BlankAlthough I am not a nuclear physicist I do appreciate the quest for >new technology for energy. Perhaps a bit of good news helps . > >Our company had it's first successful testing of a design we have labored >many dark nights toward for 14 years. All the times we felt like throwing >in the towel and after all the investment we saw a tiny advance in our >goal of a radical new technology for treating seawater using the vortex >created by our induction feeder mixers. Whoopee !! Seawater? Why do you treat seawater? Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Nov 9 23:06:41 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAA76bub010831; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 23:06:37 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAA767uL010707; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 23:06:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 23:06:07 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: FZNIDARSIC@aol.com Message-ID: <75.37e00119.2ec317d2@aol.com> Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 02:05:54 EST Subject: Re: Words of encouragement To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_75.37e00119.2ec317d2_boundary" X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6808 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56388 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --part1_75.37e00119.2ec317d2_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/9/2004 10:26:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, walhalla@cvtv.net writes: > Richard > Thank you Richard. I hit the bottom at times. Comments like the one from Horace hurt. Keep up the good work. Frank Z --part1_75.37e00119.2ec317d2_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 11/9/2004 10:26:= 32 PM Eastern Standard Time, walhalla@cvtv.net writes:

Richard


Thank you Richard.  I hit the bottom at times.  Comments like the=20= one from Horace hurt.

Keep up the good work.


Frank Z --part1_75.37e00119.2ec317d2_boundary-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Nov 9 23:07:06 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAA770T3018503; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 23:07:00 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAA76xbX018489; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 23:06:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 23:06:59 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner@mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 22:13:24 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: The Problem of finding slight excess mass Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56389 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 9:00 AM 11/9/4, Jones Beene wrote: >Does anyone know of a higher resolution setup? Electronium should show up in NMR if the concentration can be made high enough. It should show up on an ordinary TV tube for that matter, provided there is a means of feeding the electronium to the gun cathode, and a camera, etc., is used to project a white dot or thin horizontal lines on the screen. It should have shown up in zillions of thoroughly computer analysed bubble chamber pictures by now too. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Nov 9 23:09:53 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAA79kT3019556; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 23:09:46 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAA79jft019534; Tue, 9 Nov 2004 23:09:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 23:09:45 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner@mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 22:16:10 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Words of encouragement Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56390 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 2:05 AM 11/10/4, FZNIDARSIC@aol.com wrote: >Thank you Richard. I hit the bottom at times. Comments like the one from >Horace hurt. I don't understand. I did not intend to offend anyone. I am just curious as to what is going on with the seawater. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Nov 10 04:58:15 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAACwCT3027347; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 04:58:12 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAACwA2F027322; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 04:58:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 04:58:10 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <410-2200411310115658630@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: The Problem of finding slight excess mass Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 05:56:58 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940be25d15d14f46e83567414b3f6e9bcce350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.117.104 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56391 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Horace Heffner wrote: > > Electronium should show up in NMR if the concentration can be made high > enough. > How? > > It should show up on an ordinary TV tube for that matter, provided > there is a means of feeding the electronium to the gun cathode, and a > camera, etc., is used to project a white dot or thin horizontal lines on > the screen. > I suggested this earlier. All you have to do is kill the vertical oscillator drive tube/transistor not the horizontal, it feeds the HV flyback circuit. However, at parts/million more or less, I doubt you will see a displaced spot. OTOH, magnetic deflection CRTs have built-in ion traps to protect the phosphor. > > It should have shown up in zillions of thoroughly computer > analysed bubble chamber pictures by now too. > Tell me how much charge, mass and energy these "electrons" have, based on R = mv/eB or; Force = charge x velocity x magnetic field strength F = qvB Google Searches: "Cloud Chamber Photo" and "Bubble Chamber Photo" Also photos in "Images". http://www.fnal.gov/pub/inquiring/timeline/08.html http://teachers.web.cern.ch/teachers/archiv/HST2001/bubblechambers/Karl/intk8k0/electrons.html http://teachers.web.cern.ch/teachers/archiv/HST2003/publish/bubble%20chambers/BC%20website%20beta/lesson06.htm Some time ago Dr. Alvarez invited me out to LBL to go nuts looking for anomalies in Bubble Chamber photos. Maybe Jones can get over there. :-) Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII


Horace Heffner wrote:
>
> Electronium should show up in NMR if the concentration can be made high
> enough. 
>
How?
>  
> It should show up on an ordinary TV tube for that matter, provided
> there is a means of feeding the electronium to the gun cathode, and a
> camera, etc., is used to project a white dot or thin horizontal lines on
> the screen. 
>
I suggested this earlier. All you have to do is kill the vertical oscillator drive tube/transistor
not the horizontal, it feeds the HV flyback circuit. However, at parts/million more or less,
I doubt you will see a displaced spot. OTOH, magnetic deflection CRTs have built-in
ion traps to protect the phosphor.
>  
> It should have shown up in zillions of thoroughly computer
> analysed bubble chamber pictures by now too.
>
Tell me how much charge, mass and energy these "electrons" have, based on R = mv/eB   
or;
Force = charge x velocity x magnetic field strength
F = qvB 
 
Google Searches: "Cloud Chamber Photo"  and   "Bubble Chamber Photo"
Also photos in "Images".
 
 
 
Some time ago Dr. Alvarez invited me out to LBL to go nuts looking for anomalies in
Bubble Chamber photos. Maybe Jones can get over there. :-)
 
Frederick

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Nov 10 06:23:04 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAAEMvub015547; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 06:22:57 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAAEMpcO015376; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 06:22:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 06:22:51 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001e01c4c730$bc393580$ed017841@xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: encouraging words Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 08:22:39 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001A_01C4C6FE.711215E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.8 required=4.0 tests=HTML_30_40,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56392 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C4C6FE.711215E0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_001B_01C4C6FE.711215E0" ------=_NextPart_001_001B_01C4C6FE.711215E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankTreating seawater ..poor choice of words// We have been working on methods of reducing the mineral content of = seawater sufficent to use the treated water for domestic use. We = witnessed the first true reduction yesterday via a combination vortex- = cavitation method. Admittedly an infant step..but from now on it's = mostly grunt work. We will now focus on trying to create UV light and = ozone within the vortex regime for purposes of disinfection and = enhancing the molecular changes we believe are physically possible by = increasing the rotational speed of the vortex. I have no objection to Horace comments.. we have a company full of = Horaces. Keeps us honest and objective. This group would suffer without objectivity. Thanks all. I will keep a post on progress . We do NOT patent ideas or = products. We are not " inventors". We make things that are useful to = industry and if it is useful we all benefit. The idea is to get there " = fustist with the bestest". Richard ------=_NextPart_001_001B_01C4C6FE.711215E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Treating seawater ..poor choice of = words//
 
We have been working on methods of reducing = the mineral=20 content of seawater sufficent to use the treated water for domestic use. = We=20 witnessed the first true reduction yesterday via a combination vortex-=20 cavitation method. Admittedly an infant step..but from now on it's = mostly grunt=20 work. We will now focus on trying to create UV light and ozone within = the vortex=20 regime for purposes of disinfection and enhancing the molecular changes = we=20 believe are physically possible by increasing the rotational speed of = the=20 vortex.
 
I have no objection to Horace comments.. we = have a=20 company full of Horaces. Keeps us honest and objective.
This group would suffer without=20 objectivity.
 
Thanks all. I will keep a post on = progress . We do=20 NOT patent ideas or products. We are not " inventors". We make things = that are=20 useful to industry and if it is useful we all benefit. The idea is to = get there=20 " fustist with the bestest".
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_001B_01C4C6FE.711215E0-- ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C4C6FE.711215E0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <001901c4c730$bba35e20$ed017841@xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C4C6FE.711215E0-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Nov 10 06:29:31 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAAETNub018564; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 06:29:23 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAAETM6E018555; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 06:29:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 06:29:22 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: From: "Johnson, Steven" To: "'vortex-l@eskimo.com'" Cc: "Johnson, Steven" Subject: RE: Words of encouragement Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 08:29:06 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" X-PMX-Version: 4.6.0.99824, Antispam-Core: 4.6.1.104326, Antispam-Data: 2004.11.10.0 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56393 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: RC Macaulay > Subject: Words of encouragement > > Although I am not a nuclear physicist I do appreciate the quest for > new technology for energy. Perhaps a bit of good news helps . > > Our company had it's first successful testing of a design we have > labored many dark nights toward for 14 years. All the times we felt > like throwing in the towel and after all the investment we saw a > tiny advance in our goal of a radical new technology for treating > seawater using the vortex created by our induction feeder mixers. > Whoopee !! > Congratulations, Richard. Obviously there are Vortexians (including myself!) that are not quite sure what kind of "treatment" you process involves. Pollution control/cleanup? What's the goal of your process? Is there anything you can tell us, short of having to kill us afterwards? ;-) > To each of you that labor in your respective technologies.. > NEVER QUIT ! No matter how dark the nights. > > Richard Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Nov 10 06:49:55 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAAEniub027343; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 06:49:44 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAAEngQ0027319; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 06:49:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 06:49:42 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002601c4c734$4041d6e0$d0bcfea9@jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <001e01c4c730$bc393580$ed017841@xptower> Subject: Re: encouraging words Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 06:47:49 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56394 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Richard, " We do NOT patent ideas or products. We are not " inventors". We make things that are useful to industry and if it is useful we all benefit. The idea is to get there " fustist with the bestest". I applaud that approach, although it is not possible for everyone. It accomplishes several subtle things in addition to speed. It conditions the company to operate in the most efficient manner, rather than relying on the judicial system. However, it wouldn't keep a predatory company like Microsoft from taking over your technology and forcing you out in the cold, as happened with Novell recently. Even without going before a jusy MS offered over $500 million to settle, I am told. The only problem being, would Novell have become another MS without the IP theft, and how much of that did the lawyers take? At any rate, and I am surprised nobody picked up on this - are you saying that by using only a vortex, you can somhow remove most of the mineral content from seawater? May I ask how many passes that takes and does it require a lot of energy? Needless to say, that technology could revolutionize those parts of the world such as north Africa - with vast amounts of desert in close poximity to the oceans. Congratulations! Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Nov 10 07:08:40 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAAF8Tub007855; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 07:08:30 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAAF8Rkf007827; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 07:08:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 07:08:27 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <003601c4c736$e1732e40$d0bcfea9@jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: Subject: Re: The Problem of finding slight excess mass Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 07:06:39 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56395 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace, > Electronium should show up in NMR if the concentration can be made high Interesting idea. This was an approach taken by Mills to find the hydrino, and although he "claims" that NMR has identified the hydrino, I have not seen this result from an independent source and really doubt that it has been successful for him or else we would have heard something more forceful. Let's say you put a Pd cathode into a NMR device, and assume that one part in a thousand of the Pd was enriched in (*e-), what would you expect to see? (just thinking out loud here) - would there be a stray peak and at what frequency variation from pure Pd ? What percentage of Pd needs to be enriched for Pd to show up unequivocally? This approach would not be difficult to pull off, if there was some way to predict what should turn up - in advance. Of course such a cathode is probably already loaded with too much other transmutation products but it might be worth a try. > It should show up on an ordinary TV tube for that matter, but only if (*e-) is not inhibited by its higher mass, so as not to become a conduction electron > It should have shown up in zillions of thoroughly computer > analysed bubble chamber pictures by now too. Yes it probably has, but the similarity with a normal electron is too close. However, I suspect that much, if not most of tracts associated with Ps decay, and written off as such, could instead be (*e-) decay. Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Nov 10 07:56:41 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAAFubT3026225; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 07:56:38 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAAFuZx0026218; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 07:56:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 07:56:35 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <41923A54.1090201@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 10:57:08 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: EU may ITER alone. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56396 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Even the liberal Vorts gotta love this: http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/science/11/09/nuclear.eu.fusion.reut/index.html "The United States initially backed Japan's bid to put the reactor in the remote northern fishing village of Rokkasho in what was seen as a punishment to France for leading opposition to the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq." From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Nov 10 09:07:18 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAAH7FT3016314; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 09:07:15 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAAH78Np016274; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 09:07:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 09:07:08 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <005901c4c747$73c96380$d0bcfea9@jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <003601c4c736$e1732e40$d0bcfea9@jonesb9pacbell> Subject: Re: The Problem of finding slight excess mass Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 09:05:16 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: <1Y2QCB.A.O-D.7qkkBB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56397 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: There is one other facet to this problem of finding slight excess mass which should be mentioned (after all, this is vortex.) That is the antigravity property of some types of matter; which property has, of course, been attributed to the electron in some fringe theories. This idea goes back a long way, and pops up on many forums, but it is also a part of the theory of R. Mills (although a minor part). Here is a typical amateur site where it is explored: http://www.sciencenook.com/gdt/nt_1ag.htm At any rate, consider the antigravity electron WRT either the positron or the (*e-) particle. Is the positron also antigravity? And if not, what is the interaction of gravity with (*e-) ? Dirac's theory predicts the "negative energy" electron - but NOT in our space/time continuum. It may show up as what can be called a 4-space "hole", but NOT a 3-spatial thing. To "exist" here, a particle has to have our dimension of time, so it must "occupy some positive timeline" but the negative electron of Dirac does not . I am in the habit of calling Dirac's sea "reciprocal space" rather than a true fourth dimension, for reasons too complicated to get into now. But in short, if "time" is a *volume,* of sorts - and we normally experience it as a straight line (IOW as one-dimensional, then time is T=1 for us). Consequently, reciprocal space could be [3-space] plus[ T=2] and "full" four dimensionality is only possible when [3-space] encounters [T=3]. There are other variations on this theme. When Dirac's negative electron has a forced interaction with 3-space matter, it "eats" an electron, so to speak, leaving a positive charge, which we call the "positron" (it's actually at that point where a 3-space "hole" appears instead of an extra-dimensional "hole." Thinking in both 3-space and 4-space at the same time is necessary - sorry for the verbal confusion. That remant positron, which came into our 3-space as a result of Dirac's negative electron having removed a 3-space electron, is then poised to annihilate with another 3-space electron - so from our perspective we have lost two real electrons. IOW we have lost the equivalent of an electronium (*e-). In the *converse* of that well-known process (which goes on all the time in the "froth of virtual foam" which characterizes the quantum world) - we can gain one (*e-) from reciprocal space, in exhange for a like amount of EMF. I believe that this is what happens when two deuterium fuse into an alpha particle. Instead of the characteristic 24 MeV photon - we effectively exchange that mass/energy for about two dozen (*e-) particles. Now, we can, and some cosmologists do consdier the negative electron of Dirac as the force which generates the acceleration of the expanding universe, the so-called dark energy, and furthermore, we can consider the *positron* both as a "hole" in reciprocal space or surprisingly, as something akin to gravity itself in our space, since all massive objects will be drawn towads that dimensional "hole". This verbalization would bolster the view that the electron is antigravity and its anti-particle, the electron, is the reverse situation - that is, the positron can be identified with "gravity" itself (as part of a graviton particle). If the positron exists as associate or particulate of the graviton, where the mass of the graviton in many GUTs is many GeV and the positron about half an MeV... then perhaps positron holes tend to "group" into an aglommeration of about 10^6 to 10^7 which is... coincidentally about the size of certain other hypothetical particles... including possibly an EVO? Is that why an EVO does not experience antigravity even though its component elements all appear to be anti-gravity - and also why the normal charge differential of all those massed electrons is nullified? This line of thought could also mean that the (*e-) will appear far heavier when captured in any atom, because it has in effect "pinned" that atom to a gravity-inducing particle (not the graviton itself but probably a multiple)... wouldn't it be elegant if the multiple involved the fine-structure constant ? something like K*[1/alpha]^2 or higher power law .... In short, perhaps we should be looking for a rather "heavy" isomer of any element, if we want to find electronium... do any exist? Stay tuned. Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Nov 10 10:17:24 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAAIHDub024100; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 10:17:14 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAAIH7wh024047; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 10:17:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 10:17:07 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: encouraging words Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 13:15:57 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-reply-to: <001e01c4c730$bc393580$ed017841@xptower> Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56398 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi RC. You write: >We witnessed the first true reduction yesterday via a combination vortex- cavitation method. It's been a while since we've discussed either of these topics, rather odd for a group named Vortex I know but then this thing has been around for a while and has gone through some changes. Why don't you explain a bit more about the experimental protocol and results. So far, you've said very little about who you are and what you are doing. Perhaps you can put the whole vortex/cavitation subject into play again here, rousing Knuke from his German idyll. >We do NOT patent ideas or products. We are not " inventors". > We make things that are useful to industry and if it is useful > we all benefit. The idea is to get there " fustist with the bestest". This seems very strange to me. Again, some more background here might help us to understand where you are coming from. If you are donating this work to the public domain, this is a good place to do it, and you will find several list members who will be happy to help you develop the work. May I suggest if you are serious about this desire, to look into some other options at the patent office besides patents. Considering the value of the technology, someone will patent it immediately if you do not. However, very cheap options exist to prevent this. Sad to say, if you want to do good in the world it requires more than just a generous hand. I remember as a child trick-or-treating around halloween and there would always be one house where the well-meaning neighbor would leave a box of candy on the doorstep with a "take one" sign. Needless to say, the candy, box and sign would disappear in a matter of minutes... K. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Nov 10 14:31:13 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAAMTkT3022873; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 14:31:08 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAAMTVQS022785; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 14:29:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 14:29:31 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner@mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 13:34:33 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: The Problem of finding slight excess mass Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56399 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 9:05 AM 11/10/4, Jones Beene wrote: >At any rate, consider the antigravity electron WRT either >the positron or the (*e-) particle. Is the positron also >antigravity? And if not, what is the interaction of gravity >with (*e-) ? Food for thought: if *either* electrons or positrons (but not both) contained a negative or even only a net neutral gravitational charge then black holes of suffcient mass would spew them forth in enormous quantities. Regardless of the energy (inertia) of any particle having a negative gravitational charge, assuming every particle has an anti-particle that can be formed via vacuum fluctuations, a sufficiently massive black hole can continuously eject such particles at the rate at which they spontaneously form via vacuum fluctuations within some critical radius of the sigularity. Such an activity, if it involved only one species of particle, i.e. electrons and positrons, would quickly be curtailed as a net charge develops on the black hole sufficient to counteract the gravitational repulsion. Black holes of a given but greater than minimum size then should all electrostatically repel each other. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Nov 10 15:44:34 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAANh2ub025207; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 15:44:27 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAANgtoW025158; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 15:42:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 15:42:55 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <00ab01c4c77b$5c4447a0$d0bcfea9@jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: Subject: Re: The Problem of finding slight excess mass Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 15:16:49 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56400 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace, You raise several intriguing points > >At any rate, consider the antigravity electron WRT either > >the positron or the (*e-) particle. Is the positron also > >antigravity? And if not, what is the interaction of gravity > >with (*e-) ? > Food for thought: if *either* electrons or positrons (but not both) > contained a negative or even only a net neutral gravitational charge then > black holes of sufficient mass would spew them forth in enormous quantities. ....unless of course, this object (black hole) is also the ultimate source for Dirac's "negative energy" electrons. IOW the black hole does spew out charge imbalance, but only into reciprocal space. > Regardless of the energy (inertia) of any particle having a negative > gravitational charge, assuming every particle has an anti-particle that can > be formed via vacuum fluctuations, a sufficiently massive black hole can > continuously eject such particles at the rate at which they spontaneously > form via vacuum fluctuations within some critical radius of the sigularity. > Such an activity, if it involved only one species of particle, i.e. > electrons and positrons, would quickly be curtailed as a net charge > develops on the black hole sufficient to counteract the gravitational > repulsion. Black holes of a given but greater than minimum size then > should all electrostatically repel each other. Perhaps one doesn't even need to go to a singularity. Has anyone answered the question satisfactorily, for instance, of why our sun doesn't develop a high negative (or positive) charge. It is well-known that the Sun emits billions of tons of charged matter daily, and occasionally we get enough of an imbalance here to shut down hi-tension lines - as in 1989 and lesser events. The huge magnetic field of the sun should arguably capture more electrons in the corona than protons - so what is going on? Mainstream science is convinced that the electric force plays no macroscopic role in the Universe, but I'm not so sure. There used to be conferences held on the "Non-electric Universe". Was a consensus ever reached (doubtful)?Although matter in the Cosmos consists of huge positive and negative charges such as in solar flares, the incredible strength of the electric force seems to inhibit the macroscopic separation of these charges over time, unless there is more to the story. For example, if only a fractional gram of free protons (in overbalance) were to gather on our Sun, it would blow itself up because electrostatic repulsion would be stronger than the huge gravity generated by the 10^31 Kg mass... but prior to that, at least a smaller amount of free protons should deform the Sun to a big egg if they were distributed unevenly! The strength of the electric is force beyond imagination... or is it somehow self-nullified by its own strength - kind of like a "natural" capacitor. Perhaps that is the main function of reciprocal space. Macroscopic electric charges may arguably have cosmological results e.g. galaxies which do not move according to the gravity-law or the accelerating expansion of the Universe. In the case of some galaxies and black holes, erratic movement may be because they are not contributing their share, or else are contributing too much mass/energy to the Dirac sea. Such cosmological results are explainable (in possibility) by correlating the "Dirac sea" to the mysterious dark energy, As you say, food for thought... ...and enough to cause major the charge imbalance known a heartburn... Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Nov 11 08:52:36 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iABGqQMN010572; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 08:52:26 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iABGqNJq010543; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 08:52:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 08:52:23 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner@mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 07:58:45 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: The Problem of finding slight excess mass Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56401 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 3:16 PM 11/10/4, Jones Beene wrote: >Perhaps one doesn't even need to go to a singularity. A singularity is not required, but the g field would have to be inside a Swartzchild radius. The problem is that pairs form spontaneously from the vacuum with only the mutually opposed momentum that can be momentarily borrowed. Their time of separation, and thus maximum distance of separation, are small random variables which are limited in size by the Heisenberg principle. Pairs attract back together unless the force of gravity at the point of maximal (radial to the black hole center of mass) separation exceeds the attractive electrostatic force. The mututal gravitational force between the pair members is negligible. It is the large g force of the black hole present within some radius of the center of mass of the black hole that is important. A singularity is not required, but the gravitational field that can separate pairs with even a small probability is a colossal gravitational field. In adition, charge imbalance that accumulates must be overcome by the gravity as well. This ultimately results in a non-zero net charge equilibrium, with charge quantity dependent on the black hole mass. For example, suppose positrons have a negative gravitational charge, while electrons have a positive gravitatonal charge. There is then a small gravitational repulsion between members of a pair which is massively offset by their electrostatice force of attraction. However, if a pair forms in a very high g field inside a black hole, and the positron is repelled by the black hole mass, and the electron is attracted, then if the separation of the pair is sufficient and in the right radial direction, and the g large enough, the repelling of the positron due to the gravitational force exceeds the atrraction of the electrons, and the energy of pair creation is permanently borrowed form the vacuum. The black hole mass is permanently increased by the mass of the electron and the positiron has nothing to prevents its very energetic escape from the black hole other than annihilation with some other electron. As this process continues, however, the accumulation of electrons builds a negative charge and an equilibrium results due to the positrons being held by the E field overwhelming the g field. If positrons posess negative gravitational charge, we would then expect all ordinary black holes to be negatively charged. Negative mass black holes should thus all be positively charged. The amount of charge carried by a black hole is then a function of its mass, and the charge of a black hole is negative if the black hole is ordinary matter, and positive if the black hole matter carries negative gravitational charge. The accumulation of charge and mass from the vacuum in this manner then gradually neutralizes the net force of gravity over time, at least under the principles in the "GR, QM, and Field Unification" theory posted here earlier. >Has >anyone answered the question satisfactorily, for instance, >of why our sun doesn't develop a high negative (or >positive) charge. Why would anyone expect equilibrium for the sun, which is gravitationally very small, to not be maintained near zero net charge? Charge imbalance greatly exceeds gravitational effects. >It is well-known that the Sun emits >billions of tons of charged matter daily, and occasionally >we get enough of an imbalance here to shut down hi-tension >lines - as in 1989 and lesser events. Flares consist of plasma, of matter of very close to neutral charge. There is a massive charge pulse however, due to the fact electrons are spewed out at a higher speed and thus a cloud of electrons reaches earth before the heavier positive particles. >The huge magnetic >field of the sun should arguably capture more electrons in >the corona than protons - so what is going on? I don't see the problem. It is all a matter of equilibrium. Any imbalance is adjusted to an equilibrium point. No large net charge can develop. > >Mainstream science is convinced that the electric force >plays no macroscopic role in the Universe, Where is this consensus? I've read articles stating the opposite (sorry, don't remember where or when), that there is evidence of large interstellar electrostatic fields in some parts of the universe. >but I'm not so >sure. There used to be conferences held on the "Non-electric >Universe". Was a consensus ever reached (doubtful)?Although >matter in the Cosmos consists of huge positive and negative >charges such as in solar flares, the incredible strength of >the electric force seems to inhibit the macroscopic >separation of these charges over time, unless there is more >to the story. Yes, solar flare particles should contribute a net charge of zero to the space near our solar system, and recombination of the species seems likely. > >For example, if only a fractional gram of free protons (in >overbalance) were to gather on our Sun, it would blow itself >up because electrostatic repulsion would be stronger than >the huge gravity generated by the 10^31 Kg mass... but prior >to that, at least a smaller amount of free protons should >deform the Sun to a big egg if they were distributed >unevenly! Equilibrium prevents this kind of net charge from happening. A tiny E within a plasma ultimately results in a large corrective current that neutralizes the source of the E. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Nov 11 13:01:16 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iABL1CqM027712; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 13:01:12 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iABL19Wf027692; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 13:01:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 13:01:09 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <410-2200411411195956720@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Out to Lunch, Alternating Charge Polarity. Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 13:59:56 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9400587ad5fc435bbe6aa571be9694816fa350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56402 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII While Horace Heffner and Jones Beene are having lunch with Arthur Dent at the "Restaurant at The End of The Universe". :-) In order for a constant attractive magnetic force Fm = 1.0e-7* (q*c)^2/d^2 between "Disk or Current Loop" particles to occur, Positive Charge ( +q ) must be alternating (+/- sinusoidal) in time. Thus q = 1.602e-19 Coulombs has to be an RMS value (0.707 * peak). Hence, Negative Charge ( - q = 1.602e-19 Coulombs) must be a 180 degree Phase Difference wrt positive charge, also alternating (+/- sinusoidal) in time. >From this one could infer that negative particles repel their charge conjugate, indicating an antigravity force - Fg = 1.0e-7 * [(- q * c)/Gamma] * [(+ q * c)/Gamma] * 1/R^2 newtons. The relativistic Gamma = (Fes/FG)^1/2 = 2.04e21 for the electron or positron and 3.35e18 for each of the three quarks (disks or current loops) in the proton. If you some up all of the quarks (+ q) and electrons (- q) in the 5.98e24 kg mass of the earth with radius R = 6.38e6 meters you can arrive at an antigravity "Hypocharge" (-q) necessary to levitate a given mass. IOW, Electrons Repel Gravity. Hard to prove, as Mike Nieto at Los Alamos can tell you. :-) Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

 
While Horace Heffner and Jones Beene are having lunch with Arthur Dent at the
"Restaurant at The End of The Universe". :-)
 
In order for a constant attractive magnetic force Fm = 1.0e-7* (q*c)^2/d^2 between
"Disk or Current Loop" particles to occur, Positive Charge ( +q ) must be alternating (+/- sinusoidal)
in time. Thus q = 1.602e-19 Coulombs has to be an RMS value (0.707 * peak).
 
 
Hence, Negative Charge ( - q  = 1.602e-19 Coulombs) must be a 180 degree Phase Difference
wrt positive charge, also alternating (+/- sinusoidal) in time.
 
From this one could infer that negative particles repel their charge conjugate, indicating
an antigravity force - Fg = 1.0e-7 * [(- q * c)/Gamma] * [(+ q * c)/Gamma] * 1/R^2 newtons.
 
The relativistic Gamma  = (Fes/FG)^1/2  = 2.04e21 for the electron or positron and
3.35e18 for each of the three quarks (disks or current loops) in the proton.
 
If you some up all of the quarks (+ q) and electrons (- q) in the 5.98e24 kg mass
of the earth with radius R = 6.38e6 meters you can arrive at an antigravity "Hypocharge" (-q)
necessary to levitate a given mass.
 
IOW, Electrons Repel Gravity.   Hard to prove, as Mike Nieto at Los Alamos can tell you.   :-)
 
Frederick
 
 
 
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Nov 11 13:35:55 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iABLZhMN022301; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 13:35:43 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iABLZeH9022277; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 13:35:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 13:35:40 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20041111213536.00685df8@pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk@pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 21:35:36 +0000 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: The Immanent Death of GR Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56403 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ============================================== "The workmen started clearing the ground where Yasser Arafat's body is to be buried the day before his death was announced ============================================== I think we should start clearing the ground for the burial of GR. 8-) See: http://www.economist.com/science/displayStory.cfm?story_id=3104321 Cheers Grimer From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Nov 11 16:23:55 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAC0MQqM006667; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 16:23:47 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAC0MOq8006647; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 16:22:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 16:22:24 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=BGie0XxTKVV2l77V00QV9OHErvk8qR80Ltrbk8Om2erylMq0OCQxqp05Qz8ME+c/1DHnQRH9u+wmMZx8xBctFlhQm6QHCLhtWpNw3HYiojrygK5hbeq9ihnx1zgYqzllOe5NCtlyREjQOPlfuDAUxWIofWBpTDZitx6odz3KGh0= ; Message-ID: <20041112002054.77899.qmail@web60309.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 16:20:54 -0800 (PST) From: Nick Reiter Subject: coils within coils and bamboo round about To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.20041111213536.00685df8@pop.freeserve.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56404 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A week or two back I happened to pick up on a segment of discussion on Vortex that included the idea of long thin coils wound in helices wound in further orders of helicity. (sheesh is that a word?) It's taken me this long to yell back, but I did want to mention that after about 5 years of working on other assorted projects, Dr. Sam Faile has gotten back into building "topologically challenging" coils from both wire and dielectric materials. Some of you who kept track of Sam's more esoteric work over the years know of what I speak. Quite a bit of the massive collection of knotted, sequenced, recursive, woven, and "ancient geometry" coils was lost in the June fire at Sam's former apartment, but he salvaged some, and luckily quite a few of his winding notes dried out from water damage. Enough to begin again. For those not aware of it, one of Sam's primary projects going back to the late 80s was based on a simple thought: could coils built with extreme topology and embodying the right mathematics produce anomalous effects when energized? (By virtue of any number of hypotheses) He started out with simple stuff, like Caduceus coils and knots, then built extended arrays with geometry that frankly I found confusing as hell. Quite a few of these I ran simple tests on back in the early 1990s, by passing AC, DC, or RF through. Looked for things like unusual heating, voltage rises, weight changes, and the more subjective as well - such as bio and psychointeractive effects. Some were really cool micro-inductive VHF and UHF pickups. Others did seem like they got extra hot with RF pumped through them. Milligram level weight changes may have occured but were inconclusive and speculative. I would swear that a couple of the designs made me barfingly sick when I put current through them and I was seated nearby. Thats totally my own subjective reality talking there. What Sam has been doing recently has been looking for biological effects on house plant bamboo from a couple of very large extended Caduceus arrays that embody the coil of a coil of a coil concept. I think he has either 4 or 5 levels of helicity. If any of you have a flavor for this sort of mad topological fun and are interested in getting specifics from Sam, he would love to hear from you. As always, he relies on telephone or written mail, and you can get both from the front page of the website: www.geocities.com/spfaile/ One little paper that is on the same website that shows some of the smaller of Sam's 10,000 coils is: http://www.geocities.com/spfaile/ArrayGrav.html If anyone does come across bamboo plants materializing in their parlor, then you can figure they just arrived via the 10th dimension from Cincinnati... NR __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Nov 11 20:00:15 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAC402nq006603; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 20:00:02 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAC3xsM8006347; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 19:59:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 19:59:54 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <410-220041151225842270@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Getting AntiGrav Off The Ground Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 20:58:42 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940f0e9ca1b34684d9f35421167fabf3982350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.165.220 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56405 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Umpteen iterations suggest that "Negative Charge" at a frequency of 3.04 MHZ on a current loop will repel gravity, provided that the loop is one or more wavelengths (100 meters) in circumference or about 105 feet in diameter. A repelling force of about 380 newtons (85 pounds) per ampere-meter is possible. Give or take.... :-) Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

 
Umpteen iterations suggest that "Negative Charge" at a  frequency of 3.04 MHZ on a
current loop will repel gravity, provided that the loop is one  or more wavelengths (100 meters)
in circumference or about 105 feet in diameter.
 
A repelling force of about 380 newtons (85 pounds) per ampere-meter is possible.
 
Give or take....    :-)
 
Frederick
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Nov 11 22:33:41 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAC6XcHP008062; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 22:33:38 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAC6XWwT008020; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 22:33:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 22:33:32 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: FZNIDARSIC@aol.com Message-ID: <192.32d16b34.2ec5b331@aol.com> Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 01:33:21 EST Subject: Got my Midi session 4 running and wrote some flying sauce music. To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_192.32d16b34.2ec5b331_boundary" X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6808 Resent-Message-ID: <0MUT4.A.Q9B.8kFlBB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56406 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --part1_192.32d16b34.2ec5b331_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/craft.html Frank Znidarsic --part1_192.32d16b34.2ec5b331_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
http://www.angelf= ire.com/scifi2/zpt/craft.html

Frank Znidarsic
 --part1_192.32d16b34.2ec5b331_boundary-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Nov 12 00:59:41 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAC8xZHP007221; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 00:59:35 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAC8xXkx007203; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 00:59:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 00:59:33 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 08:59:28 +0000 From: "Chambers, Robert (UK)" Subject: Russian researchers build prototype of "perpetual" propulsion unit To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6556.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Thread-Topic: Russian researchers build prototype of "perpetual" propulsion unit Thread-Index: AcTIlcqIl9semjSEEdmmEAAIAql12g== content-class: urn:content-classes:message X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 12 Nov 2004 08:59:29.0584 (UTC) FILETIME=[EB418B00:01C4C895] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id iAC8xTHP007169 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56407 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Not sure if this is a hoax, but it appears to come from TASS rather than pravda.ru so it might be genuine. The name "Menshikov" appears on several web sites and scientific paper archives in connection with space propulsion research. Rob http://www.gateway2russia.com/st/art_257162.php 11 November 2004 15:00 Russian researchers build prototype of "perpetual" propulsion unit The Space Systems Scientific Research Institute outside Moscow is developing a "perpetual" engine for use in space and on Earth. Valeriy Menshikov, the director and chief scientist at the institute, told ITAR-TASS news agency today that "the institute has been working on a so-called reactive mass emission-free engine for some years". He said "scientists have already developed an original prototype engine". "The prototype is propelled by the movement within it of a liquid or solid propellant on a fixed trajectory reminiscent of a tornado," Menshikov explained. "Moreover, it is possible that we may observe in this motion some as-yet unknown interaction between the propellant and little-studied fields such as, for example, the gravitational field," he said. "We have managed to record thrust of up to 28g with this prototype, but only for a few minutes so far," a department head at the institute, Yuriy Danshov, told the agency. "Thrust of this magnitude may appear extremely small, but were it to be applied for 20 minutes to a 100-kg satellite, the satellite's orbit would increase by 2 km," the scientist said. The developers say this kind of propulsion unit would have a service life of at least 15 years, with a maximum of some 300,000 activations. It would be powered by solar batteries. Experts believe the device needs to be tested in space or dropped down a deep silo to replicate the effects of weightlessness to maintain the integrity of the experiment in measuring the thrust of the prototype. "Formally, science draws parallels between this research and attempts to build a perpetual motion machine, but big firms in the West are working very seriously and investing heavily in this," Menshikov said. The Moscow researchers believe the engine would not just be for use in controlling and adjusting space craft orbits and orbital stations. "This environmentally clean engine will have applications in air and land transport in future, too," Menshikov said. Source: ITAR-TASS news agency, Moscow -- () ascii ribbon campaign - against html mail /\ - against microsoft attachments ******************************************************************** This email and any attachments are confidential to the intended recipient and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient please delete it from your system and notify the sender. You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose or distribute its contents to any other person. ******************************************************************** From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Nov 12 07:59:30 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iACFxMnq014335; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 07:59:23 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iACFx0l6014201; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 07:59:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 07:59:00 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <410-2200411512145745810@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Getting AntiGrav Off The Ground Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 08:57:45 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940aaccbdce0428e208e34d8eb82ebb9362350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.165.127 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56408 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII I received this note from an unimpeachable source. > > Most flying saucers are ~10m in diameter > Three "ampere-turns on a lifting solenoid" will still allow the 100 meter full-wave loop at 3.04 MHz. Giving about 85 pounds lift per ampere-meter. The only problem left is proper feeding, and keeping the FCC off your back. :-) Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

 
I received this note from an unimpeachable source. 
 
>
> Most flying saucers are ~10m in diameter
>
 
Three "ampere-turns on a lifting solenoid" will still allow the 100 meter
full-wave loop at 3.04 MHz. Giving about 85 pounds lift per ampere-meter.
 
The only problem left is proper feeding, and keeping the FCC off your back. :-)
 
Frederick
 
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Nov 12 08:50:29 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iACGoNHP029081; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 08:50:23 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iACGoG43029051; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 08:50:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 08:50:16 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.1.2.0.2.20041112114922.0339e7d0@mail.lenr-canr.org> X-Sender: log733sup@lenr-canr.org@mail.lenr-canr.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.2.0 Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 11:50:20 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Latest from Szpak et al. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <2_vcB.A.3FH.InOlBB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56409 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Paper: http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/SzpakSprecursors.pdf PowerPoint presentation: http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/SzpakSprecursorsa.pdf - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Nov 12 09:07:02 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iACH6jnq003298; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 09:06:49 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iACH6hDX003283; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 09:06:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 09:06:43 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000c01c4c8d9$f554a480$0100007f@xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: mineral oxidation reduction via vortex Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 11:05:52 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0008_01C4C8A7.93606C00"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.5 required=4.0 tests=HTML_20_30,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56410 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C4C8A7.93606C00 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0009_01C4C8A7.9361F2A0" ------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C4C8A7.9361F2A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankRegarding the use of a vortex for reducing minerals in seawater.. = the vortex created by the high speed rotating member on the mixer acts = as an enhancement to a complex set of events that we have finally been = able to replicate. We actually achieved a sustained oxidation reduction = of minerals in water. The vortex produces the=20 "oommph" . Inducting air at the periphery of the rotating ( 110 f/p/s = velocity) member permits a velocity shear sufficent to partially oxidize = the entrained minerals in the water. An active cavitation event is = present at this time. The trick was to keep the cavitation bubble in = suspension and away from the inner shroud wall or the wall dissappears = rapidly The vortex swirl is sufficent to perform this balancing act. = Based on the residual in the bottom of the test tank, we calculate we = had a=20 mineral reduction of 10-15%. Why such high hopes for achieving 40% or = more ? Most seawater desal plants use a battery of filters upstream of the = reverse osmosis battery of membranes.=20 Some are experiencing clogged filters on 2 hour intervals so they add an = expensive chemical for descaling. Any reduction of minerals prior to = filtering is money in the bank. We have a long difficult path to = traverse to reduce the electric power used but that again is mostly = grunt work.=20 Best guess why the vortex gives the "oommph" is it " triggers" the = cavitation event. Add to that is the shape of the parabolic shroud and = it becomes an " echo chamber" similar to a speaker. Please do not misunderstand.. we are NOT making a claim that the vortex = has " magic" powers. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C4C8A7.9361F2A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Regarding the use of a vortex for reducing = minerals in=20 seawater.. the vortex created by the high speed rotating member on the = mixer=20 acts as an enhancement to a complex set of events that we have finally = been able=20 to replicate. We actually achieved a sustained oxidation reduction of = minerals=20 in water. The vortex produces the
"oommph" . Inducting air at the periphery of = the=20 rotating  ( 110 f/p/s velocity) member permits a velocity shear = sufficent=20 to partially oxidize the entrained minerals in the water. An active = cavitation=20 event is present at this time. The trick was to keep the cavitation = bubble in=20 suspension and away from the inner shroud wall or the wall dissappears = rapidly=20 The vortex swirl is sufficent to perform this balancing act. Based = on the=20 residual in the bottom of the test tank, we calculate we had a =
mineral reduction of 10-15%. Why such high = hopes for=20 achieving 40% or more ?
 Most seawater desal plants use a battery = of=20 filters upstream of the reverse osmosis battery of membranes. =
Some are experiencing clogged filters on 2 = hour=20 intervals so they add an expensive chemical for descaling. Any = reduction of=20 minerals prior to filtering is money in the bank. We have a long = difficult path=20 to traverse to reduce the electric power used but that again is mostly = grunt=20 work.
Best guess why the vortex gives the "oommph" = is it "=20 triggers" the cavitation event. Add to that is the shape of = the=20 parabolic  shroud and it becomes an " echo chamber" similar to a=20 speaker.
Please do not misunderstand.. we are NOT = making a claim=20 that the vortex has " magic" powers.
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C4C8A7.9361F2A0-- ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C4C8A7.93606C00 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000701c4c8d9$ddf33ae0$0100007f@xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C4C8A7.93606C00-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Nov 12 10:03:09 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iACI35HP022533; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 10:03:06 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iACI2xxQ022447; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 10:02:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 10:02:59 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002201c4c8e1$91c7be40$d0bcfea9@jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <6.1.2.0.2.20041112114922.0339e7d0@mail.lenr-canr.org> Subject: Re: Latest from Szpak et al. Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 10:00:59 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56411 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: From: Jed Rothwell > Paper: > > http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/SzpakSprecursors.pdf Which contains one of the most amazing understatements that you are likely to ever see in any new energy technology (at least it will be "most amazing" to the mainstream of nuclear physics). That statement is found on page 8, where NOT just traces of transmutation products were found, but instead, well... in the authors own words: "Fig. 6. Analysis of the boulder-like segment showed the presence of a single element, Al, [!!!!!]... Imagine that... in a Pd cathode one finds a micro-sized "boulder" but not a mix of elements - a boulder of a single transmutation product, aluminum... furthermore- "and that resembling a crater, the presence of two elements, namely Mg and Al. Without the aid of a Maxwell demon, it would be difficult to argue that such directed motion of impurities can take place. The only sensible answer is that they were produced in the course of electrolysis of D2O in a cell placed in an external electric field by nuclear events." Why would aluminum be favored? And how could the nuclear events leading up to this substantial amount of aluminum happen and at the same time have been close to "energy neutral". IOW the formative events must have been "energy neutral" or else one would have a deep cavity there rather than a mound... Maxwell's demon goes mainstream ? Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Nov 12 10:18:05 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iACIHpnq027633; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 10:17:52 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iACIHmJY027592; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 10:17:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 10:17:48 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: mineral oxidation reduction via vortex Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 13:16:23 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-reply-to: <000c01c4c8d9$f554a480$0100007f@xptower> Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56412 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Richard. Sounds like a good start! I know a great deal of work along these lines has been done by other researchers using ultrasonic horns to generate the cavitation for wastewater treatment and general chemical processing. Consider this from a few seconds of googling. http://www.univ-savoie.fr/labos/lcme/organic.htm The novelty you are claiming is the use of the vortex to generate the and maintain the cavitating shroud? It will be interesting to see what your final efficiency is for the process, whether you can beat out an ultrasonic horn type system. Again, I hope we can rouse Knuke from his slumbers to comment upon this subject. I'll bet a few days spent on a literature search would save you months of head banging. K. -----Original Message----- From: RC Macaulay [mailto:walhalla@cvtv.net] Sent: Friday, November 12, 2004 12:06 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: mineral oxidation reduction via vortex Regarding the use of a vortex for reducing minerals in seawater.. the vortex created by the high speed rotating member on the mixer acts as an enhancement to a complex set of events that we have finally been able to replicate. We actually achieved a sustained oxidation reduction of minerals in water. The vortex produces the "oommph" . Inducting air at the periphery of the rotating ( 110 f/p/s velocity) member permits a velocity shear sufficent to partially oxidize the entrained minerals in the water. An active cavitation event is present at this time. The trick was to keep the cavitation bubble in suspension and away from the inner shroud wall or the wall dissappears rapidly The vortex swirl is sufficent to perform this balancing act. Based on the residual in the bottom of the test tank, we calculate we had a mineral reduction of 10-15%. Why such high hopes for achieving 40% or more ? Most seawater desal plants use a battery of filters upstream of the reverse osmosis battery of membranes. Some are experiencing clogged filters on 2 hour intervals so they add an expensive chemical for descaling. Any reduction of minerals prior to filtering is money in the bank. We have a long difficult path to traverse to reduce the electric power used but that again is mostly grunt work. Best guess why the vortex gives the "oommph" is it " triggers" the cavitation event. Add to that is the shape of the parabolic shroud and it becomes an " echo chamber" similar to a speaker. Please do not misunderstand.. we are NOT making a claim that the vortex has " magic" powers. Richard From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Nov 12 10:40:20 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iACIe9nq002997; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 10:40:10 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iACIe672002964; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 10:40:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 10:40:06 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <003601c4c8e6$bc3c05a0$d0bcfea9@jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <6.1.2.0.2.20041112114922.0339e7d0@mail.lenr-canr.org> <002201c4c8e1$91c7be40$d0bcfea9@jonesb9pacbell> Subject: Demon aluminum Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 10:37:59 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56413 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ref the recent Paper: http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/SzpakSprecursors.pdf "Fig. 6. Analysis of the boulder-like segment showed the presence of a single element, Aluminum... > Why would aluminum be favored? And how could the nuclear > events leading up to this substantial amount of aluminum > happen and at the same time have been close to "energy > neutral". IOW the formative events must have been "energy > neutral" or else one would have a deep cavity there rather > than a mound... Here is an explanation, admittedly working backwards, so to speak. I find it attractive, far more so than the explanations forwarded by Szpak et al.... as will Fred Sparber because it implicates the hypothetical lepton triad, (*e-). Thinking out loud... When the most common Pd isotope -which is Pd106 - fuses with a deuteron, one would end up with a transitory nucleon mass of 108. Cd108 is technically stable, but any newly formed nucleon would be formed on the very edge of instability. How could Cd108 decay in an "energy neutral" way and at the same time allow four neutrons to convert to protons. so as to give us aluminum? Aluminum comes in only one "size" Al27. It is pretty obvious to anyone that 108 is a couple of octaves removed from 27, but the p/n balance of protons and neutrons indicates that such an end result would necessarily involve a number of high energy beta decays, which are not seen, which is not the same as saying that these beta decays have not taken place. Therefore, lets go back to the original poser. How could Cd108 decay in an "energy neutral" way, releasing four high energy betas (< 1 MeV each) and at the same time end up with four neutrons converted to protons. so as to give us four atoms of aluminum and very little net energy release? Easy !! ...says the village idiot - just allow the excess energy to be converted into mass via Dirac reciprocal space, sending to Dirac the 4 high energy betas in exchange for 4 positrons, which take up residence in the 4 newly created lepton triads, in effect "creating" electronium(*e-) where there was none before - and the beauty of this is that you have an almost perfect balance in net energy. ... and no need to summon up "demonology".... Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Nov 12 11:17:30 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iACJHMnq015855; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 11:17:23 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iACJHHnl015795; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 11:17:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 11:17:17 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: FZNIDARSIC@aol.com Message-ID: <1f4.24ccd1a.2ec6662d@aol.com> Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 14:17:01 EST Subject: Fwd: Got my Midi session 4 running and wrote some flying sauce music. To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part1_1f4.24ccd1a.2ec6662d_boundary" X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6808 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56414 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --part1_1f4.24ccd1a.2ec6662d_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --part1_1f4.24ccd1a.2ec6662d_boundary Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-path: From: FZNIDARSIC@aol.com Full-name: FZNIDARSIC Message-ID: <192.32d16b34.2ec5b331@aol.com> Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 01:33:21 EST Subject: Got my Midi session 4 running and wrote some flying sauce music. To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part2_1f4.24ccd1a.2ec5b331_boundary" X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6808 --part2_1f4.24ccd1a.2ec5b331_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/craft.html Frank Znidarsic --part2_1f4.24ccd1a.2ec5b331_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
http://www.angelf= ire.com/scifi2/zpt/craft.html

Frank Znidarsic
 --part2_1f4.24ccd1a.2ec5b331_boundary-- --part1_1f4.24ccd1a.2ec6662d_boundary-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Nov 12 13:12:45 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iACLCfHP006204; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 13:12:41 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iACLCdxO006183; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 13:12:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 13:12:39 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20041112211227.0067b488@pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk@pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 21:12:27 +0000 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Savvy on Mass Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56415 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Want to be some of the first people in the world to read an historic scientific paper? Go to: http://www.blazelabs.com/f-u-massvariation.asp I'm sure that many Vortexians will have enough scientific nous to realise this has to be correct. ;-) Cheers Grimer From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Nov 12 15:50:40 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iACNoaFU003001; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 15:50:36 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iACNoQW3002944; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 15:50:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 15:50:26 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <41953E7B.FC04152B@ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 15:51:39 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Latest from Szpak et al. References: <6.1.2.0.2.20041112114922.0339e7d0@mail.lenr-canr.org> <002201c4c8e1$91c7be40$d0bcfea9@jonesb9pacbell> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56416 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Personally I do not believe all that is claimed, even in cold fusion :-). I have seen such "boulders" on metal samples that clearly result from the environment. The normal environment has all kinds of small particles floating in the air, which can land on a sample and be completely unnoticed until after the experiment. As you point out, it makes no sense for transmutation products to move from where they are produced to form a boulder. This defies the concept of entropy. Ed Jones Beene wrote: > From: Jed Rothwell > > > Paper: > > > > http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/SzpakSprecursors.pdf > > Which contains one of the most amazing understatements that > you are likely to ever see in any new energy technology (at > least it will be "most amazing" to the mainstream of nuclear > physics). That statement is found on page 8, where NOT just > traces of transmutation products were found, but instead, > well... in the authors own words: > > "Fig. 6. Analysis of the boulder-like segment showed the > presence of a single element, Al, [!!!!!]... > > Imagine that... in a Pd cathode one finds a micro-sized > "boulder" but not a mix of elements - a boulder of a single > transmutation product, aluminum... furthermore- > > "and that resembling a crater, the presence of two elements, > namely Mg and Al. Without the aid of a Maxwell demon, it > would be difficult to argue that such directed motion of > impurities can take place. The only sensible answer is that > they were produced in the course of electrolysis of D2O in a > cell placed in an external electric field by nuclear > events." > > Why would aluminum be favored? And how could the nuclear > events leading up to this substantial amount of aluminum > happen and at the same time have been close to "energy > neutral". IOW the formative events must have been "energy > neutral" or else one would have a deep cavity there rather > than a mound... > > Maxwell's demon goes mainstream ? > > Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Nov 12 17:22:04 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAD1LtFU031687; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 17:21:55 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAD1LrSP031669; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 17:21:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 17:21:53 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Demon aluminum Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 12:21:34 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <26oap09o50vubute4prfi0q9ga0629afjl@4ax.com> References: <6.1.2.0.2.20041112114922.0339e7d0@mail.lenr-canr.org> <002201c4c8e1$91c7be40$d0bcfea9@jonesb9pacbell> <003601c4c8e6$bc3c05a0$d0bcfea9@jonesb9pacbell> In-Reply-To: <003601c4c8e6$bc3c05a0$d0bcfea9@jonesb9pacbell> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id iAD1LeFU031590 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56417 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jones Beene's message of Fri, 12 Nov 2004 10:37:59 -0800: Hi, [snip] >Easy !! > >...says the village idiot - just allow the excess energy to >be converted into mass via Dirac reciprocal space, sending >to Dirac the 4 high energy betas in exchange for 4 >positrons, which take up residence in the 4 newly created >lepton triads, in effect "creating" electronium(*e-) where >there was none before - and the beauty of this is that you >have an almost perfect balance in net energy. ...but, but...Pd106 + D -> 4*Al27 -7.8 MeV. This is just straight mass -> mass, without regard to charge. Where does the missing 8 MeV come from? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Nov 12 17:29:00 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAD1SuwC011982; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 17:28:57 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAD1Sf6K011905; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 17:28:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 17:28:41 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <00a401c4c91f$d4b4bbc0$d0bcfea9@jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <6.1.2.0.2.20041112114922.0339e7d0@mail.lenr-canr.org> <002201c4c8e1$91c7be40$d0bcfea9@jonesb9pacbell> <41953E7B.FC04152B@ix.netcom.com> Subject: Re: Latest from Szpak et al. Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 17:26:41 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56418 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Edmund Storms writes, > Personally I do not believe all that is claimed, even in cold fusion :-). Instead of "even in cold fusion" some observers might "even" be inclined to opine "espeically"... as that genius Bob Park does on a regular basis - but in this case, there is some reason for me to believe that Szpak et al. are indeed exactly on-target. > I have seen such "boulders" on metal samples that clearly result > from the environment. If what Szpak has located in this image were purely a one-of-a-kind, singularity type of thing, instead of something which was not uncommon in the work, then yes you could be right. But I do not think that they would have taken the time to present it this way, if they did not think that this feature was *normal* to their expeiment. One must assume that they took the necessary precautions to avoid contamination, since they do mention this factor as an alternative explanation... for the skeptics to fall back on (they are diplomatic, one should add)... > The normal environment has all kinds of small > particles floating in the air, which can land on a sample and be > completely unnoticed until after the experiment. Perhaps this could explain a single instance, or it could explain abnormally sloppy work, which is hopefully NOT your implication, I am assuming. It all gets back to whether this phenomenon is a regular feature of their work or not. If they said that it is, then I would be inclined to suggest that a proper resolution of the anomaly would NOT relate to environmental contamination. > As you point out, it > makes no sense for transmutation products to move from where they are > produced to form a boulder. This defies the concept of entropy. I hope that I wasn't misconstrued on this. My intent may have been just the opposite... What is wrong with "defying" the poorly understood concept of "entropy" anyway? Sure, this experiment defies entropy in several other ways - for one, in exactly the same way that LENR defies the concept of entropy. IOW it presents a such a clear violation, such as hot-nuclear energy itself once presented, that the violation in itself forces the pedagogues who believe in "entropy" to go back to the drawing board and redefine it... to save face, if nothing else. Entropy has been already revised more than once, for instance to NOT inlcude the hot version of nuclear energy - and now this work, and ZPE also becomes just a further invitation to revise the 'entropy concept' further to include a "bulk transmutation" BEC-like effect which can occur in energy-neutral fashion, and in a rather large particulates consisting of many atoms. If you have a BEC-like reaction, it will seldom involve on a few atoms. Not ot mention that any of regular BEC has entropy violating issues which have nto been adequately addressed. I think that you are failing to grasp the critical point that can possibly explain the Szpak results ... that when a BEC-like QM reaction occurs at all, it usually IS a bulk energy-near-neutral type of reaction, not confined to 'pair of particles' or even a few particles. When you have the QM wave functions involved, as with the putative bulk reaction [Pd106 + D --> Cd1098 ---> four Al27 + four (*e-)] then this can occur in the normal Pd nanaoparticle as a unit, and if energy neutral, you do indeed end up with a "boulder" - entropy-be-damned. But of course, one must first buy-into the concept of a BEC-like reaction. Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Nov 12 17:41:26 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAD1fJFU003173; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 17:41:19 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAD1fG82003142; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 17:41:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 17:41:16 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <00a801c4c921$94f4ee40$d0bcfea9@jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <6.1.2.0.2.20041112114922.0339e7d0@mail.lenr-canr.org> <002201c4c8e1$91c7be40$d0bcfea9@jonesb9pacbell> <003601c4c8e6$bc3c05a0$d0bcfea9@jonesb9pacbell> <26oap09o50vubute4prfi0q9ga0629afjl@4ax.com> Subject: Re: Demon aluminum Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 17:39:10 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56419 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: From: "Robin van Spaandonk" < > ...but, but...Pd106 + D -> 4*Al27 -7.8 MeV. > This is just straight mass -> mass, without regard to charge. > > Where does the missing 8 MeV come from? Easy! ... at first glance, the court jester would say... Perhaps the "missing" ~8 MeV comes from interleaved matrices of the larger nanoparticle, where similar BEC-like reactions involving D+D --> He + 24 MeV but in a 1:3 ratio - will occur... which serve to "fuel" the endotherm of a bulk aluminum forming reaction ?....or is that too contrived to be so elegant?... Actually I have different and less-elegant figures, but the underlying idea is the same. Jones "fact is stranger than fiction"... but perhaps concocted-fact purported to explain seeming fiction, which is in-fact "real" fact... is stranger than either.... From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Nov 12 19:16:45 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAD3GbwC003783; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 19:16:38 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAD3Gap9003769; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 19:16:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 19:16:36 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <410-220041161331548260@ix.netcom.com> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: aki@ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.1.47.0 (Windows) From: "Akira Kawasaki" To: "vortex-l" Subject: FW: WHAT'S NEW Friday, October 29, 2004 Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 19:15:48 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: c4cc7f5f697e8746f66dc3a06d5924d856090e6ca394420033b18141a87162f6667c3043c0873f7e350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.232.6.119 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56420 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > [Original Message] > From: What's New > To: Akira Kawasaki Date: 10/29/2004 12:03:36 PM Subject: WHAT'S NEW Friday, October 29, 2004 WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 29 Oct 04 Washington, DC 1. WARPED SCIENCE: BEAM ME UP SCOTTY, THEY'RE CRAZY DOWN HERE. Making the rounds in Washington this week is a 75-page Air Force Research Laboratory report, Teleportation Physics Study (my spell checker balks on "teleportation," and well it should). This is not the IBM entangled photon stuff; this is transporting people across space. The subway does that, but it's not included in the report. Instead it describes "conveyance of persons by psychic means," and "transport through extra space dimensions or parallel universes." The contractor for the study was Warp Drive Metrics in Las Vegas, and the author was Eric W. Davis, PhD, FBIS. We couldn't find Dr. Davis in American Men and Women of Science, so we googled him and Warp Drive Metrics. Warp Drive Metrics has no website. We did find an article by Dr. Davis, Wormhole Induction Propulsion, prepared for the 1997 NASA Breakthrough Propulsion Physics Workshop, which NASA had refused to allow me to attend http://www.aps.org/WN/WN97/wn081597.cfm . His affiliation then was the National Institute for Discovery Science, Las Vegas. The NIDS website displays an Oct 15, 04 notice from its president that the Institute is on an "inactive status." Desperate for information, we contacted the Project Manager of the study, Dr. Franklin Mead, Senior Scientist of the Advanced Concepts Office. He's not listed in American Men and Women of Science either, but he has a 1996 Patent (5,590,031) for a system to convert zero point energy to electrical energy. Apparently it's not available yet. He could not give me the exact cost of the teleportation report, but said the subcontractor, ERC Inc., would know. We called ERC, but teleportation is just one small part of a huge contract. Two weeks ago we learned of the Air Force positron bomb (WN 15 Oct 04). How many fantasy weapons are taxpayers buying? 2. SUPERCOLLIDERS: ARE PARTICLE ACCELERATORS A THREAT TO LIFE? The Raelians have been pretty quiet since they announced that baby Eve had been cloned http://www.aps.org/WN/WN02/wn122702.cfm That was two years ago. Now the Raelian Scientists Association is urging that "supercolliders" be turned off "to protect life at every level of existence in the universe." The Raelians believe all life on Earth is the result of intelligent design, and so do a lot of fundamentalist Christians, but that's where similarities end. Raelians think our creators were scientific space aliens. (Have you ever noticed how silly everyone else's religion is?) Raelians also believe the universe is fractal, with an infinite number of fractal levels of life. Thus, supercolliders might be destroying life in infinitely small worlds. WN does not believe there is much supporting evidence, but we'll watch where we step. THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND. Opinions are the author's and not necessarily shared by the University of Maryland, but they should be. --- Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.aps.org/WN To subscribe, send a blank e-mail to: From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Nov 12 19:20:20 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAD3KEwC004537; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 19:20:14 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAD3KDcu004518; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 19:20:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 19:20:13 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <410-220041161331925820@ix.netcom.com> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: aki@ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.1.47.0 (Windows) From: "Akira Kawasaki" To: "vortex-l" Subject: FW: WHAT'S NEW Friday, November 05, 2004 Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 19:19:25 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: c4cc7f5f697e8746f66dc3a06d5924d856090e6ca3944200eb045c1f6d99c97693fe5b2b5bb10998350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.232.6.119 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56421 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > [Original Message] > From: What's New > To: Akira Kawasaki Date: 11/5/2004 12:03:57 PM Subject: WHAT'S NEW Friday, November 05, 2004 WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 5 Nov 04 Washington, DC 1. THE VOTE IS IN: IT'S NOW TIME TO UNITE BEHIND THE WINNER. The winner of the Excalibur Prize, was the Black Hole Weapon or BHW, nominated by George Wallerstein. Too dangerous to use on Earth, it's designed for use against any alien planet suspected of harboring weapons of mass destruction. If we're wrong, who's to complain? George will now receive WN without charge for an entire year. The Excalibur Prize http://www.aps.org/WN/WN04/wn101504.cfm was inspired by bold "outside-the-box" pioneers at the Pentagon, NASA and CIA, who gave us the Excalibur X-ray laser, the Podkletnov gravity shield, and remote-viewing. Other brilliant ideas in past years included the neutrino bomb, which had an acoustic device to let victims know they'd been zapped by trillions of neutrinos. Our panel of experts faced an ethical crisis when former WN intern Paul Gresser, who is not exactly svelte, nominated the Atkins bomb. When detonated, the A-bomb coats the target area with bacon grease, reducing everyone to skin-and-bones with high blood pressure. The countermeasure is carbs, applied with a device called a carburetor. Would picking Paul's idea be viewed as conflict-of-interest? One panelist, General Persiflage, scoffed: "At the Pentagon we always award contracts to friends; you gonna do favors for your enemies?" Another idea was nano voodoo dolls; trillions of them on a single chip. Jim Dukarm explained, "It amplifies Murphy's law based on quantum theory or something. In tests it dropped a tree on a troublemaker with at least partial effectiveness." 2. IRAN: THE NUCLEAR CHALLENGE THAT THE CAMPAIGN MOSTLY IGNORED. The world is too divided to agree on sanctions, the U.S. is too bogged down in Iraq to threaten punitive action, and Iran sees an opportunity to wring concessions from a divided world. Diplomats from Iran and the European Union are meeting in Paris today, but there seems to be little prospect of agreement. Iran, floating on an ocean of oil, insists it will never abandon its sovereign right to produce peaceful nuclear power. Iran's Supreme Leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, said today that, "Our nuclear weapon is our devoted youth and our believing nation." The election showed we're also a "believing nation." It's our young fundamentalist believers against their young fundamentalist believers. 3. DIETARY SUPPLEMENTS: FDA VOWS TO CRACK DOWN ON MISLABELING. Don't count on it. Passage of the 1994 Dietary Supplement and Health Education Act largely freed the industry from government oversight. A couple of celebrity deaths has turned up the heat on the FDA http://www.aps.org/WN/WN04/wn040904.cfm , but this is a powerful industry, and it will change when the law changes. THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND. Opinions are the author's and not necessarily shared by the University of Maryland, but they should be. --- Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.aps.org/WN To subscribe, send a blank e-mail to: From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Nov 12 19:23:29 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAD3NHFU030388; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 19:23:17 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAD3NF55030370; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 19:23:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 19:23:15 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <410-220041161332226690@ix.netcom.com> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: aki@ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.1.47.0 (Windows) From: "Akira Kawasaki" To: "vortex-l" Subject: FW: WHAT'S NEW Friday, November 12, 2004 Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 19:22:26 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: c4cc7f5f697e8746f66dc3a06d5924d856090e6ca39442009f4789b59c1629dfc6b317bf5bc479bb350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.232.6.119 Resent-Message-ID: <6SEqQC.A.ZaH.i4XlBB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56422 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > [Original Message] > From: What's New > To: Akira Kawasaki Date: 11/12/2004 1:15:11 PM Subject: WHAT'S NEW Friday, November 12, 2004 WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 12 Nov 04 Washington, DC 1. SHELL GAME: INDUSTRY PLAYS ITS PART IN THE HYDROGEN CIRCUS. They installed the nation's first public hydrogen pump in the Shell station at 525 Benning Road in Washington, DC, just 5.2 miles from the U.S. Capitol Building. We thought you'd like to know just in case you're in town driving your hydrogen powered car. Oh! I forgot -- you can't buy one, can you? GM has six hydrogen prototype minivans in Washington, parked by the Capital for what a GM executive calls "educational outreach." Parked, because a round trip to the Shell station will use a third of a tank of hydrogen. No matter, GM isn't trying to sell hydrogen cars. Here's a WN educational outreach: the Bush administration points to the hydrogen car to show that while other countries sign treaties, we do something about the environment. Here's more education: even if they solve all the problems with the hydrogen car, it won't do squat for the environment. Pollution comes from making the hydrogen. GM will turn out a handful of hydrogen concept-cars with government subsidies while selling thousands of profitable SUVs, and Shell's gasoline sales will climb filling up those SUVs, at the cost of putting up with a few little- used hydrogen pumps, paid for with government subsidies. 2. FOSSILIZED: ASSESSING ENERGY TRENDS FOR THE FORESEEABLE FUTURE There was an Exxon Mobil ad on the op-ed page of the Washington Post yesterday titled "Energy through 2030." It was an ad by a fossil-fuel company, not a research paper, but it was sobering: "Fossil fuels meet more than 80% of world energy needs," it concluded, "and we expect this trend to continue through 2030." There was no mention of a hydrogen initiative. 3. MORAL VALUES: DARWINISM CONTINUES TO STIR UP THE FAITHFUL. In Cobb County Georgia, a sticker on science textbooks warns that evolution is "a theory, not a fact." It's being challenged in court. The Grantsburg School District in Wisconsin wants "Various theories of origins" (read "intelligent design") taught. The move is overwhelmingly opposed by higher education groups in the state. In Charles County, Maryland, several school board members want creationism on the curriculum and American History to stress our roots as "a Christian nation." They are also considering inviting Gideons to provide each students with a bible. The Washington Post says one board member is a member of Gideons. Another hosts a conservative religious radio talk show. The Raelians http://www.aps.org/WN/WN02/wn122702.cfm note that, "The Theory of Intelligent Design does not lead to a supernatural designer but to an extraterrestrial human- civilization designer." THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND. Opinions are the author's and not necessarily shared by the University of Maryland, but they should be. --- Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.aps.org/WN To subscribe, send a blank e-mail to: From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Nov 12 20:07:54 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAD47jFU012700; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 20:07:45 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAD47iSJ012694; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 20:07:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 20:07:44 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20041112200013.0590a900@mail.dlsi.net> X-Sender: steven%newenergytimes.com@mail.dlsi.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 20:11:44 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: ICCF11 Results In-Reply-To: <04df01c4c5b1$e7aa56c0$d0bcfea9@jonesb9pacbell> References: <418EB330.4090203@rtpatlanta.com> <003101c4c532$6da84f00$d0bcfea9@jonesb9pacbell> <418ED75A.6080206@rtpatlanta.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56423 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hey Vorts... I met Naudin and interviewed him a bit but he declined to go on record. I know who is paying his salary though I can't disclose it. It is a major agency in France. He was quite nervous about me talking with him and I found that interesting. I am undecided as to whether he is a benefit or a detriment to CF. He clearly has a very sexed-up website and makes it easy for amateurs to get their hands on CF and give it a shot. Is this a good thing? I don't know. Does he give sufficient and respectful credit to Mizuno? I have not spent the time to analyze his site to determine this. My bets are the following: 1. That Naudin attracted his sugar daddy by the strong efforts he has made over the years to create his excellent web presence. 2. The people who pay his salary, who were at ICCF-11 will soon figure out who the real players, the original scientists in this game are. Now that Naudin has made it to the big time (as far as sponsorship), I'll be quite curious if the CF dev and dissemination continues on his website. He didn't forbid me to take his picture - so I'll have a nice mugshot of him in an upcoming newsletter. That's about all I know about JLN. Like Jed, I am working to dig out from data and will have stuff going up on www.newenergytimes.com shortly. At 08:42 AM 11/8/2004 -0800, you wrote: >From: Terry Blanton (in reference of the elebaorate Mizuno >presentation, which immediate appeared in great detail on >Naudin's web-site) > > > A *net* reduction in entropy? Is nothing sacred? > > >Not to Naudin, that is for sure. > >I am curious whether Jed or any of the other vortex >attendees had occassion to meet Naudin? > >He certainly has his "ear to the ground" like no other >free-energy researcher on the planet, and despite >allegations of being more copy-cat that creative genius >(probably he is a good helping of both), he must be >well-funded... which in France, often means that the >*bureaucracy* is somehow involved... after all, they not >only invented the term and perfected the institution to its >ultimate stage of usefulness (or "maximum emmerdement," >shall we say)... in effect the bureaucracy is the French >national condescension to Communist ideals, which surely >would have taken root without it as an weighty >counterbalance - IOW a patronizing gesture has now become a >dominant way of life... and not a bad one... nor an >efficient one either. > >Of course, "Naudin" like the more infamous and infinitely >more boring Professor Nicholas Bourbaki, could end up being >not a single person at all, but a dedicated group of >experimenters(doubtful), but ... as they say in "Private >Eye", > >....I think we should be told *-) > >Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Nov 13 07:41:41 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iADFfbwC019123; Sat, 13 Nov 2004 07:41:37 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iADFfZuq019112; Sat, 13 Nov 2004 07:41:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 07:41:35 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <41962B66.9090204@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 10:42:30 -0500 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040804 Netscape/7.2 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l Subject: Mars and Methane Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------000302070109050601030904" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56424 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------000302070109050601030904 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There's also rumors of ammonia: "Methane gas detected on Mars could be a sign of extraterrestrial life, scientists announced yesterday." http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20041112/news_1n12mars.html --------------000302070109050601030904 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There's also rumors of ammonia:

"Methane gas detected on Mars could be a sign of extraterrestrial life, scientists announced yesterday."

http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20041112/news_1n12mars.html
 --------------000302070109050601030904-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Nov 13 08:28:05 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iADGRwwC030393; Sat, 13 Nov 2004 08:27:58 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iADGRvOJ030386; Sat, 13 Nov 2004 08:27:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 08:27:57 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20041113162750.0068d380@pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk@pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 16:27:50 +0000 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Demon aluminum Resent-Message-ID: <6vyuCB.A.uaH.NYjlBB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56425 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I like that idea of lead - the archetypal heavy metal - being transmuted into Aluminium - the archetypal light metal and the most abundant metal in the earth's crust. It has a poetic ring about it. 8-) Not a very scientific observation, perhaps. But then, "There are more things......" Grimer Aluminum is the most abundant metal and the third most abundant element in the Earth's crust, after oxygen and silicon. It makes up about 8% by weight of the Earth’s solid surface. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Nov 13 08:42:14 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iADGg3FU019109; Sat, 13 Nov 2004 08:42:04 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iADGfwQo019060; Sat, 13 Nov 2004 08:41:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 08:41:58 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <41962B96.D77C337B@ix.netcom.com> Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 06:52:18 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Latest from Szpak et al. References: <6.1.2.0.2.20041112114922.0339e7d0@mail.lenr-canr.org> <002201c4c8e1$91c7be40$d0bcfea9@jonesb9pacbell> <41953E7B.FC04152B@ix.netcom.com> <00a401c4c91f$d4b4bbc0$d0bcfea9@jonesb9pacbell> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56426 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: > Edmund Storms writes, > > > Personally I do not believe all that is claimed, even in > cold fusion :-). > > Instead of "even in cold fusion" some observers might "even" > be inclined to opine "espeically"... as that genius Bob Park > does on a regular basis - but in this case, there is some > reason for me to believe that Szpak et al. are indeed > exactly on-target. > > > I have seen such "boulders" on metal samples that clearly > result > > from the environment. > > If what Szpak has located in this image were purely a > one-of-a-kind, singularity type of thing, instead of > something which was not uncommon in the work, then yes you > could be right. But I do not think that they would have > taken the time to present it this way, if they did not think > that this feature was *normal* to their expeiment. One must > assume that they took the necessary precautions to avoid > contamination, since they do mention this factor as an > alternative explanation... for the skeptics to fall back on > (they are diplomatic, one should add)... The boulder was not, according to their own data, only Al as they state, but aluminum oxide. If, as they suggest, the aluminum had formed on the cathode in a reducing environment, it would not contain oxygen. This is a simple chemical fact. The only way aluminum oxide can be present in this environment is for it to have been present initially as Al2O3, probably from a polishing operation. In addition, they mention only one example of this anomaly, not a usual occurrence. I suggest it is always best to think first in simple explanations when trying to explain these strange observations before going to the more exotic ideas. Ed > > > > The normal environment has all kinds of small > > particles floating in the air, which can land on a sample > and be > > completely unnoticed until after the experiment. > > Perhaps this could explain a single instance, or it could > explain abnormally sloppy work, which is hopefully NOT your > implication, I am assuming. It all gets back to whether this > phenomenon is a regular feature of their work or not. If > they said that it is, then I would be inclined to suggest > that a proper resolution of the anomaly would NOT relate to > environmental contamination. > > > As you point out, it > > makes no sense for transmutation products to move from > where they are > > produced to form a boulder. This defies the concept of > entropy. > > I hope that I wasn't misconstrued on this. My intent may > have been just the opposite... > > What is wrong with "defying" the poorly understood concept > of "entropy" anyway? Sure, this experiment defies entropy in > several other ways - for one, in exactly the same way that > LENR defies the concept of entropy. IOW it presents a such a > clear violation, such as hot-nuclear energy itself once > presented, that the violation in itself forces the > pedagogues who believe in "entropy" to go back to the > drawing board and redefine it... to save face, if nothing > else. > > Entropy has been already revised more than once, for > instance to NOT inlcude the hot version of nuclear energy - > and now this work, and ZPE also becomes just a further > invitation to revise the 'entropy concept' further to > include a "bulk transmutation" BEC-like effect which can > occur in energy-neutral fashion, and in a rather large > particulates consisting of many atoms. If you have a > BEC-like reaction, it will seldom involve on a few atoms. > Not ot mention that any of regular BEC has entropy violating > issues which have nto been adequately addressed. > > I think that you are failing to grasp the critical point > that can possibly explain the Szpak results ... that when a > BEC-like QM reaction occurs at all, it usually IS a bulk > energy-near-neutral type of reaction, not confined to 'pair > of particles' or even a few particles. When you have the QM > wave functions involved, as with the putative bulk reaction > [Pd106 + D --> Cd1098 ---> four Al27 + four (*e-)] then > this can occur in the normal Pd nanaoparticle as a unit, and > if energy neutral, you do indeed end up with a "boulder" - > entropy-be-damned. > > But of course, one must first buy-into the concept of a > BEC-like reaction. > > Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Nov 13 09:50:55 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iADHolFU006900; Sat, 13 Nov 2004 09:50:47 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iADHohuI006875; Sat, 13 Nov 2004 09:50:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 09:50:43 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <00d801c4c9a9$04bf04e0$d0bcfea9@jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <418EB330.4090203@rtpatlanta.com> <003101c4c532$6da84f00$d0bcfea9@jonesb9pacbell> <418ED75A.6080206@rtpatlanta.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20041112200013.0590a900@mail.dlsi.net> Subject: Re: ICCF11 Results Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 09:48:42 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56427 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Thanks for this info, Steven, > Now that Naudin has made it to the big time (as far as sponsorship), I'll > be quite curious if the CF dev and dissemination continues on his website. Probably the unimpeded "dissemination" has already stopped some time ago - at least so far as the really important stuff relating to French *national interests*. What you see now on the site are likely the "rejects"- the devices in which the margin of robust OU are deemed too slim, like the Frolov tube (COP 1.3). I had heard from a good source some time ago that the so-called "bingo fuel" project and related water-fuel genset was aleady sucessfully fully modified (mizuno-like) and that efforts were being made by the French (through US lawyers) to buy-up some of the patent rights for this type of thing, which are (were) mostly held here. There are apparently 12-15 fairly strong patents worldwide (if you include the biomass related ones which Fred Sparber has mentioned) and apparently a French consortium is trying to get a common IP cartel worked out for sharing these patent rights internationally, ahead of any announcement. A number of US efforts to produce synthetic gas such as AquafuelT, AqualeneT, MagnegasT, TrueFuelT, Carbo-hydrogenT.... not to mention the many Brown's gas clones - have surfaced in the past, but few if any appeared to be headed for sucess in the US - which could relate to the influence of our benevolent and all-caring Petro shadow-government. I suspect that Naudin himself is already out of the picture on this project, but maybe not... That possibility could be related to why Steven got the hush-hush treatment in his attempted interview. If the project has moved into government-supported labs somewhere, and into the labyrinthian bureauracy, it will suffer inevitable delay. If we have any French lurkers here on vortex, it would make a good "private eye" project to try to find out the details, as apparently this is fairly well-known in certain circles - there are now too many special-interests involved to keep it really secret. Of course, they would prefer not to see it in print, even on arcane news groups. Apparently there is a joint lab for the three French carmakers: Peugeot Citroën and Renault, which is probably where this work has been moved to. Those companies, being nationalized anyway or mostly so, have FAR more incentive to find and perfect a gasoline-displacing technology than almost any other country, other than Germany, since France has so little oil - plus these companies do not fare well in normal international competition with say, the Germans, so they are in double need of a boost to the manufacturing sector. There is also a "elfish" Petro-government counter-influence in France, of course, but it is a fraction of what we have here in the US. Naudin's original BingoFuel Reactor used ordinary tap water, consumable carbon electrodes and low voltage electrical energy for producing a synthetic gas. A plasma is generated underwater, not unlike the Mizuno work which uses different parameters. The recent modification probably uses the best of both. However, it should be emphasized that the heat ouput of the gas which is generated is MUCH higher than the amount of consummed carbon would indicate, meaning that LENR-CANR is involved. Let's make that clear - this is definitely a CANR device, even though it requires a continuous input of cabon. For whatever reason, this is hard for some observers to understand - that CANR can become part of a compound combustion-oriented technology. Plus one does not need to provide a *solid* electrode, such as solid carbon or graphite or even pressed-coal-dust; and certainly not Mizuno's tungsten, which is way too expensive. IOW it had already been suggested years ago that one could "pump" crude-oil or coal-slurry or biomass slurry, or even sugar syrup) through a hollow electrode (i.e. through a pair of oppositely charged pipette-electrodes) and get the same effect as using two consummable carbon electrodes. That is probably the route that they have taken. Even if this does not eliminate the need for fossil fuel, there is strong evidence for substantial overunity, so almost everyone concerned would be partially pleased... IF it works, of course... (except the "seven sisters," so to speak). The device was already significantly OU before the Mizuno enhancement, which I suspect relates to the power input parameters and the "type" of plamsa created (that being *eerie pinkish glow* which is said to be somehow very important),,, ... the small "downside" of this type of device is that the output is "mixed gas" and must be ported immediately into an engine's intake without any delay, in order to avoid pre-ignition. You should not attempt to store it, as one unfortunate Florida company tried to do a few years ago. And of course the auto owner must fill-up with both water and some kind of carbon-containing fuel - probably 2-3 times more water than fuel by weight. A small bother, it would seem, in light of the possible savings. The suspected new version (like the original BingoFuel Reactor) will likely produce lots of what was once called "town gas" - a mixture of carbon monoxide and hydrogen but together with many short-lived oxidizing chemicals - and those short-lived oxidizing chemicals may provide some of the OU, which will likely be in the range of a COP of over 4. As mentioned, carbon (or fossil) fuel is still needed - but this fuel can be derived from coal or agricultural (biomass) and will burn very cleanly in air, with much less NET carbon-load to the eco-system. Because of the anti-pollution and low-net-carbon aspects, it will be easy for Europeans to *demand* that the technology gets full governement *tax-free* support, even if it initially costs more to implement. The "reign of oil" could end in Europe... sooner, rather than latter... ...but alas, that geo-political situation would result in MidEast oil immediately dropping back below $20 in the USA, and consequently, it could take much longer for us to displace oil here... this is why I am considering dusting out my old French language lessons and may apply for some kind of extended visa in France... BTW since we are on the general subject of Gallic-innuendo, rumor has it that the lovely Mireille, from the Prof. Capretz series, was... shall we say, an actress employed in a far different millieu, before academia came calling...Ah, don't you just love the "joie de vie" of that culture...? Jones Vive La France ! A BingoFueled Citroën in every garage and a Croque Monsieur in every gamelle ! Eat your heart out, Geo. Bush ! From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Nov 14 08:13:45 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAEGDLDk013499; Sun, 14 Nov 2004 08:13:21 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAEGDFaf013455; Sun, 14 Nov 2004 08:13:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 08:13:15 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20041114161304.006896a8@pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk@pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 16:13:04 +0000 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Dr Essen and the Beta-aether Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id iAEGDCDk013414 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56428 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I once had the good fortune to be invited to Dr Essen's house to discuss my work on the Beta-aether/atmosphere. The other day whilst googling "Mikhail Gershteyn" I came across this rather interesting essay of his. I hope it's not considered too off topic - it does after all finish up with an observation I'm sure most Vortexians will agree with, viz., ==================================================== It is sad if [Vallée's] ideas were not fully studied because the nuclear fusion programmes throughout the world seem to make little progress in spite of the billions spent on them. ==================================================== ...and many more billions since Louis wrote that. ======================================================== ---------- RELATIVITY ---------- Einstein’s theory of relativity was dealt with very briefly in my university course but we were told that we must not expect to understand it. I accepted this situation and I have since discovered that most physicists are content to remain in the same position assuming that it must be right because it is generally accepted. My doubts about it arose when I found that the experts did not understand either. An exchange of letters in Nature between Dingle and McCrea showed that they had opposite views about some of the predictions of the theory and the arguments advanced on both sides were in my view illogical and unconvincing. Much of the discussion about the theory was concerned with the readings of clocks when they are moving relatively to each other, and since I had a wide experience of comparing clocks and measuring time it seemed to be almost a duty to take a closer interest in the controversy especially as some of the so-called relativity effects although very small were not insignificant in the definition of the atomic second and the use of atomic clocks. It is always better to refer to the original papers rather than to second hand accounts and I, therefore, studied Einstein’s famous paper, often regarded as one of the most important contributions in the history of science. Imagine my surprise when I found that it was in some respects one of the worse papers I had ever read. The terminology and style were unscientific and ambiguous; one of his assumptions is given on different pages in two contradictory forms, some of his statements were open to different interpretations and the worst fault in my view, was the use of thought-experiments. This practice is contrary to the scientific method which is based on conclusions drawn from the results of actual experiments. My first thoughts were, that in spite of its obvious faults of presentation, the theory must be basically sound, and before committing my criticisms to print I read widely round the subject. The additional reading only confirmed my belief that the theory was marred by its own internal contradictions. Relativitists often state that the theory is accepted by all scientists of repute but this is quite untrue. It has been strongly criticised by many scientists, including at least one Nobel prize winner. Most of the criticisms are of a general nature drawing attention to its many contradictions, so I decided to pin-point the errors which give rise to the contradictions, giving the page and line in Einstein’s paper, thus making it difficult for relativitists to dodge them and obscure them in a morass of irrational discussion. Special Theory flawed There were definite errors about which there can be no argument. One was the assumption that the velocity of light is constant. This is contrary to the foundations of science and the fact that it is repeated in all the textbooks I have seen, shows how little these foundations are understood by theoretical physicists. Science is based on the results of experiment and these results must be expressed in a single coherent set of units. The unit of length was the metre and the unit of time was the second. Velocity was a measured quantity as so many metres per second. Even though it was found to be constant under certain conditions, it was quite wrong to make it a constant by definition under all conditions. Only the unit of measurement can be made constant by definition and Einstein’s assumption constituted a duplication of units. It was this duplication that led to puzzling and contradictory results and not the profundity of the theory as relativitists like us to believe. The question of units is a rather complicated one; and in this instance some writers are confused by the fact that the velocity of light is now often used as a standard, distances being calculated from the time of travel of a pulse of light or radio waves; but the value used is the measured value and the conditions of measurement are carefully defined. Quite recently a further complication has arisen. At the end of our work at the NPL we made the suggestion that as the techniques improved it might be advantageous to redefine the units of measurement, keeping the atomic second, giving a defined value to the velocity of light and discarding the unit of length. This has now been done, but these developments do not affect the criticisms of the theory. Even with these units it would still be absurd to assume that the velocity would be the same for two observers in relative motion. Units must be used with common sense. Thought experiments The other glaring mistake occurred in the course of one of his thought experiments. Einstein had never made any actual experiments, as far as I can find, and he certainly had no idea of how to compare clocks. He imagined two identical clocks side by side and supposed one of them to move away at a uniform velocity and then return. According to one of the results deduced from the theory a moving clock appears to go slower than the stationary one when viewed from the stationary position. Calling the clocks A and B the predictions are: B is slower than A as seen from A and since velocity is only relative and either of the clocks can be regarded as the moving one: A is slower than B as seen from B This is certainly strange although not logically impossible. It implies that something happens to the signals during their transmission. He then outlines his experiment without giving any details of how the measurements are made and concludes that: B is slower than A and although he does not specifically say so: A is slower than B in accordance with the relativity principle. This result is of course impossible, and is usually called the clock paradox. Many thousands of words have been written about it, but the explanation is simply that he did not go through the correct procedures in making his experiment. It is a very simple experiment, being carried out every day in clock comparisons, and the correct result agrees with his predictions as indeed it must do since a thought experiment cannot give a new result. The predictions themselves are also inexplicable but this is one of the consequences of the duplication of units. I had rather naively thought that scientists would be glad to have an explanation of the confusion which had existed for so long and would at least pay some attention to my explanation, since I had more practical experience in these matters than all the relativitists put together. But I was wrong. No one attempted to refute my arguments although they justified Einstein by repeating his thought experiment and his mistakes in different forms. I was, however, dropped some pretty broad hints that if I continued to criticise the theory my reputation and career prospects were likely to suffer. It was only a sideline to my experimental work but I found it so interesting that I did not feel like dropping it, and felt that it was very important that the theory should be exposed. My Director was good about it and said he had no objection himself as long as I did not involve the NPL. I was beginning to realise that scientists could be just as irrational as anyone else and having accepted the theory as a faith without understanding it they closed their minds to argument. They also tried to suppress opposition and two of my papers after being accepted by the referees were mysteriously never published. I was not entirely without support and was invited to write an article by the Oxford University Press. It was not so comprehensive as they hoped, since I was not able to devote as much time to it as I would have liked, and lacked the secretarial assistance of my department, but it was accepted and published as one of their Research Papers (No. 5). The Director of the Royal Institution also invited me to give one of their Friday Evening Discourses. This was quite enthusiastically received and I had many letters of congratulation, although, as I noticed with some amusement, most of them were written on private notepaper and not on the paper of their organisations as one would normally expect. The history of relativity would make a fascinating study and I regret that I do not feel competent to do it myself. I have kept to those aspects dealing with units of measurement and the comparison of clocks which I know something about. It was inspired by the puzzling results of an experiment made by Michelson and Morley. They argued that if light travelled at a steady velocity through the medium, or aether, and the surface of the earth was moving through this medium there should be a detectable effect on the movement, but they failed to detect any. Fitzgerald and Lorentz gave an empirical explanation that moving rods were shortened and moving clocks were slowed down. Scientists badly wanted a more detailed satisfactory explanation and this is what Einstein thought he had done. All he did was to introduce irrational ideas into physics and incorporate the Lorentz explanation into electromagnetic theory as an assumption. The original puzzling results, therefore, remain and it is important to science that a true explanation should be found. Joke or swindle? The famous paper published in 1905 does not appear to have attracted any attention until Eddington returned from an expedition to study the eclipse in 1919, and with great publicity announced to a meeting of the Astronomical Society in London that the results had proved Einstein’s theory. What he thought he had confirmed was Einstein’s value for the bending of light round the sun. Scientists were prepared to go to a lot of trouble to obtain experimental evidence for the theory as they realised that this was necessary and yet Eddington is supposed to have said that the theory was so satisfactory that if the experimental results did not confirm it then they must be wrong. A criticism of the results made later pointed out that in order to obtain the result he wanted, some of the observations which did not fit were ignored. Also someone has pointed out, with some evidence, that Einstein himself had predicted two results differing by 2 to 1 for the deflection. Finally the deflection of the sun’s rays has nothing to do with the special theory and the clock paradox and yet in some mysterious way it was claimed to confirm it. Still searching for experimental support an experiment was made in the US some years ago. Four atomic clocks were carried by plane in opposite directions round the world. The discrepancies between the results for different clocks were many times greater than the effect being sought, and yet by ignoring the results they did not like and performing some undescribed statistical analysis the authors claimed to have confirmed Einstein’s theory and specifically the clock paradox. There was a spectacular television programme about it in which a well-known actor was installed in a simulated space shuttle and told that he would come back younger than if he had stayed on earth. Being an intelligent man he appeared to regard it as a lot of nonsense as I hope the viewers did. Unified field theory My intrusion into theoretical physics must be regarded as a failure in that I did not convince the relativitists of their mistakes. It may have had some benefit in encouraging scientists to look for a rational extension of electromagnetic theory to explain the many mysteries not yet explained. There have been several attempts, that of Rene L Vallée being in my view particularly encouraging. It is a unified field theory giving an electromagnetic explanation of gravitation, and including a most important suggestion that it might be possible to harness the gravitational energy of space safely and economically. He argued that the nuclear energy programme in France was wasteful and misdirected and was in consequence obliged to leave the authority for which he worked. It is sad if his ideas were not fully studied because the nuclear fusion programmes throughout the world seem to make little progress in spite of the billions spent on them. ======================================================== From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Nov 14 09:19:30 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAEHJIu3001411; Sun, 14 Nov 2004 09:19:22 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAEHIjLG001157; Sun, 14 Nov 2004 09:18:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 09:18:45 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <410-2200411014161731740@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Latest from Szpak et al. Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 10:17:31 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94087c9a67d7b2c2b69cee4045146a99a96350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.117.180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56429 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Despite Ed Storms' shying away from Cold Fusion in the Szpak paper. :-) http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/SzpakSprecursors.pdf The heavier Stable elements shown up (Aluminum, Calcium, Zinc, Etc.) with XRF aren't going to go away by "throwing the baby out with the bath water". The Electronium Species (electron-positron-electron,) mass about 2 electron masses , charge minus 1, formed during electron-positron pair production, can take up one or more local electrons and catalyze Cold Fusion in the same manner as "Muon Fusion". Thus the Electronium (*e-) or [(*e-) + n e-] it can neutralize the charge of a Deuteron (1H-2), Triton (1H-3) , Helium-3 (2He-3), Helium-4 (2He-4) , Lithium-6 (3Li-6) or Lithium-7 (3Li-7), and effect the Cold Fusion Reactions of the LiCl and D2O contained in the electrolysis cell in/on the Pd (or other) interstices or surface. Most if not all of these "addition reactions" can release a few Mev to over 30 Mev as Kev Synchrotron Radiation (Heat) due to nuclear vibrations (internal acceleration) lasting minutes to days while building predominately Stable Isotopes. The Synchrotron Radiation rate is determined by the Larmor Equation: W = q^2*a^2/[6(pi)eo*c^3] This indicates how a vibrating-accelerating nucleus can dump energy slowly, hence the "heat after death" effect seen in the experiments. For instance: 1, 3Li-7 + 8O-16 ---> 11Na-23 + energy 2, 2 He-4 + 11Na-23 ----> 13 Al-27 + energy Many possibilities without abstract theories or violating the laws of physics. Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

Despite Ed Storms' shying away from Cold Fusion in the Szpak paper.   :-)
 
The heavier Stable elements shown up (Aluminum, Calcium, Zinc,  Etc.) with XRF aren't going to go away by "throwing the baby out with the bath water".
 
The Electronium Species (electron-positron-electron,) mass about 2 electron masses , charge minus  1,  formed during electron-positron pair production, can take up one or more local electrons and catalyze Cold Fusion in the same manner as "Muon Fusion".
 
Thus the Electronium (*e-) or [(*e-) + n e-] it can neutralize the charge of a Deuteron (1H-2), Triton (1H-3) , Helium-3 (2He-3), Helium-4 (2He-4) , Lithium-6 (3Li-6) or Lithium-7 (3Li-7), and effect the Cold Fusion Reactions of the LiCl and D2O contained in the electrolysis cell in/on the Pd (or other) interstices or surface.
 
Most if not all of these "addition reactions" can release a few Mev to over 30 Mev as Kev Synchrotron Radiation (Heat) due to nuclear vibrations  (internal acceleration) lasting minutes to days while building predominately Stable Isotopes.
 
 
The Synchrotron Radiation rate is determined by the Larmor Equation:
 
W = q^2*a^2/[6(pi)eo*c^3]
 
This indicates how a vibrating-accelerating nucleus can dump energy slowly,
hence the "heat after death" effect seen in the experiments.
 
For instance:
 
1, 3Li-7 + 8O-16 ---> 11Na-23  + energy
 
2, 2 He-4 + 11Na-23 ----> 13 Al-27 + energy
 
Many possibilities without abstract theories or violating the laws of physics.
 
Frederick
 
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Nov 14 11:41:10 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAEJf2u3006002; Sun, 14 Nov 2004 11:41:02 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAEJexUD005976; Sun, 14 Nov 2004 11:40:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 11:40:59 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <009b01c4ca81$9332fa00$d0bcfea9@jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Excitronics and LENR Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 11:38:53 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0098_01C4CA3E.845EB980" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56430 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0098_01C4CA3E.845EB980 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Like any emerging science - especially those of the non-pathological = variety -LENR will eventually have its own specialized vocabulary or = "argot" and is well on its way already. Argot is often defined as "a = characteristic language of a particular group (as among thieves)" You = can draw your own conclusions on that, but suffice it to say that = "LENR-got" will necessarily be filled with acronyms, invented words, = arcane phraseology, and general nerdiness appreciated mostly by the = privileged (and snootily-fixated) few.=20 As in all endeavors, this argot serves several important purposes for = the practitioners (and keepers of the faith): 1) Sometimes it makes it easier to understand the mechanics of the = situation (up to a certain point), without needlessly backtracking into = elementary concepts; thereafter it... 2) Reinforces a kind of "good ol' boy" comradery (not really gender = specific, but only the Y chromosome is "hard-wired" to decode argot). = This comradery is based on a shared degree of required background = knowledge, nerd-quotient, and hopefully a fair degree of mental acumen. 3) Promotes job security by eliminating all of those who haven't gone = through the "group" initiation process (such as laboriously wading = through ponderous postings by the self-proclaimed experts) 4) Usually incorporates a fair degree of "tongue in cheek" "snub your = nose at the world" kind of geek humor In keeping with that sentiment (or was that "cynicism") I propose to add = the word "Excitronics" to the LENR argot, if only to trifecta-rize the = recently excogitated and equally significant "electronium" and = "helectronium".... ;-) What is Excitronics? Think of it as the merger of digital electronics = with heat. Huh? Seriously... It is the merger of digital electronics (on the high = end: 1 terahertz) with heat (more like "cold" around 30 terahertz). But = you can also think of it as the "key" to any kind of LENR where BEC-like = "condensation" results eventually in nuclear reactions. Thus excitronics = is "like" a QM effect (quantum mechanical) but not of the = low-probability variety, which is normal for QM. When very high current density (a concomitant of high frequency) is = produced in a small circuit, electrons start to act collectively, and = form what can be called "a gas" with strange and sometimes striking = properties. This will probably be the final limitation of Moore's Law = when it comes to computer speed, so your 3 Ghz Pentium still has a = thirty fold potential speed increase before superconductivity becomes = necessary. Often there is a preferred "size" for the excitronic circuit structure, = and often that size will coincide with what is known as a "particulate" = of the metal or alloy through which the electrons travel. Particulates, = a.k.a. quasi-particles, a.k.a. phonons - can collectively be called = "excitons" when some of their defining characteristics are a function of = the electron "gas" which they contain or propagate. If any of that sounds vaguely familiar with Ken Shoulders EVOs, it could = be relevant to that work as well, but that linkage is not yet clear.=20 If we were able to propagate a distinct frequency of near 100 terahertz = (for copper wire at STP) collisions of the conduction electrons with = their "surroundings" will become resonant because the associated = wavelength to this particular frequency was already the dominant factor = in electron movement in copper (at any frequency). Conduction electrons = in copper and most metals do NOT act between individual atoms, as is = commonly believed, but instead conduction ONLY operates between = particulates, and usually this is a rather large number of actual atoms. = This is a very important point. Copper wire itself, of a precise = geometric size and micro-structure, might become a high temperature = superconductor but only at an exact set frequency which thus far cannot = be propagated in available circuitry. These particulates in metals are usually, but not always, grouped around = a certain well-defined size. This particulate is similar to what are = called "grains" in metals but smaller. IOW with DC current, the = conduction electrons bump around at "mixed" or non-coherent rate but at = a shared common overlapping wavelength, as a normal way of propagation. = When we make this wavelength "coherent" by any other means, such as by = temperature regulation or by a phase-lock in frequency, then... voila: = resonance - often leading to superconductivity - is poised to become an = "emergent" property of the imposed coherence. This is the cross-over = point and shared characteristic between LENR and HTSC (high temperature = superconductivity). For frequencies much less than this particulate size, an electron = suffers many scattering events per driving cycle and ohmic loss is more = apparent. When we think about various sized particles in shared (or = group) motion, there are *phonons,* which can be called the "sound wave" = particle; which varies tremendously in size based upon the mechanical = properties of the host. In metals, phonons are often near-spherical or = ovoid, and can theoretically extend all the way down to nano-particles = of several hundred atoms, acting as if were a single unit. But in this = case, that is - in the case of either LENR or HTSC we seem to looking at = a particulate which is closer to 10-100 microns in diameter or = wavelength (best guess). Of course our perception of "sound" is dominated by association with = "waves." Even "spin," the unit of angular momentum has its own "wave," = the spin wave. The study of this in electromagnetics is called = "spintronics" which is a subset of excitronics. The actual estimates on = the limit of excitronics go up to 100 terahertz - which is well in the = infrared electromagnetic spectrum. It is no coincidence that HTSC seems = to max-out near this equivalent temperature. It is my belief that if LENR is performed at cryogenic temperatures with = an associated coherency imposed on top of the temperature, that BEC-like = fusion will be poised to happen - the only problem being that the energy = release could be catastrophic. Terahertz radiation, in general, is "non-ionizing" and spans the gap = between light and radio waves in the electromagnetic spectrum. It shares = useful characteristics of both its neighbors; such as - like radio = waves, terahertz waves pass easily through many solid materials, yet = they can also be focused like light to create sharp images. What happens = when one gets the three different forms of mass/energy : 1) photons 2) electrons (leptons) 3) phonons What happens when one gets ALL three into mutual coherency? Lets hope it does not sound too much like "Pop goes the weasel". And due = to many interlocking considerations, it seems to be only possible to get = all three of these into overlapping media into coherency within a very = narrow range of parameters, which seems to be between about 10 microns, = 30 terahertz (on the high end) corresponding to "body temperature" and = about 100 microns, 3 terahertz on the low end "pretty damn cold.". For the intrepid LENR researcher who wants to delve into excitronics, = (and tempt fate) there are lasers available now which generate light at = frequencies of about100 terahertz, so we are not that far off what is = needed. Can this be downshifted through filters? The cutting edge of = lasers is called Free Electron Laser (FEL) and this "should" end up = being available at 30 THz soon, and if not soon enough for your needs, = then it has been said that they are not difficult to construct if, that = is, a "set" rather than an adjustable, frequency is acceptable...=20 ...who knows... perhaps one would want to make the FEL "beam dump" to = serve double duty as the LENR target ?=20 Jones ------=_NextPart_000_0098_01C4CA3E.845EB980 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Like any emerging science - especially those of the = non-pathological=20 variety -LENR will eventually have its own specialized vocabulary or = "argot" and=20 is well on its way already. Argot is often defined as "a=20 characteristic language of a particular group (as among thieves)" You = can draw=20 your own conclusions on that, but suffice it to say that "LENR-got" will = necessarily be filled with acronyms, invented words, arcane phraseology, = and=20 general nerdiness appreciated mostly by the privileged (and = snootily-fixated)=20 few.
 
As in all endeavors, this argot serves several important purposes = for the=20 practitioners (and keepers of the faith):
 
1) Sometimes it makes it easier to understand the mechanics of the=20 situation (up to a certain point), without needlessly backtracking into=20 elementary concepts; thereafter it...
 
2) Reinforces a kind of "good ol' boy" comradery (not really gender = specific, but only the Y chromosome is "hard-wired" to decode argot). = This=20 comradery is based on a shared degree of required background knowledge,=20 nerd-quotient, and hopefully a fair degree of mental acumen.
 
3) Promotes job security by eliminating all of those who haven't = gone=20 through the "group" initiation process (such as laboriously wading = through=20 ponderous postings by the self-proclaimed experts)
 
4) Usually incorporates a fair degree of "tongue in = cheek" "snub your=20 nose at the world" kind of geek humor
 
 
In keeping with that sentiment (or was that "cynicism") I propose = to add=20 the word "Excitronics" to the LENR argot, if only to trifecta-rize the = recently=20 excogitated and equally significant "electronium" and=20 "helectronium"....   ;-)
 
What is Excitronics? Think of it as the merger of digital=20 electronics  with heat.
 
Huh? Seriously... It is the merger of digital = electronics=20 (on the high end: 1 terahertz) with heat (more like=20 "cold" around 30 terahertz). But you can also think of it as = the "key"=20 to any kind of LENR where BEC-like "condensation" results eventually in = nuclear=20 reactions. Thus excitronics is "like" a QM effect (quantum = mechanical) but=20 not of the low-probability variety, which is normal for QM.
 
When very high current density (a concomitant of high frequency) is = produced in a small circuit, electrons start to act collectively, and = form what=20 can be called "a gas" with strange and sometimes striking properties. = This will=20 probably be the final limitation of Moore's Law when it comes to = computer speed,=20 so your 3 Ghz Pentium still has a thirty fold potential speed increase = before=20 superconductivity becomes necessary.
 
Often there is a preferred "size" for the excitronic circuit=20 structure, and often that size will coincide with what is known as a=20 "particulate" of the metal or alloy through which the electrons=20 travel.  Particulates, a.k.a. quasi-particles, a.k.a. phonons - can = collectively be called "excitons" when some of their defining = characteristics=20 are a function of the electron "gas" which they contain = or=20 propagate.
 
If any of that sounds vaguely familiar with Ken Shoulders EVOs, it = could be=20 relevant to that work as well, but that linkage is not yet = clear. 
 
If we were able to propagate a distinct frequency of near 100 = terahertz=20 (for copper wire at STP) collisions of the conduction electrons with = their=20 "surroundings" will become resonant because the associated wavelength to = this=20 particular frequency was already the dominant factor in electron = movement in=20 copper (at any frequency). Conduction electrons in copper and most=20 metals do NOT act between individual atoms, as is commonly = believed, but=20 instead conduction ONLY operates between particulates, and usually this = is a=20 rather large number of actual atoms. This is a very important = point. Copper=20 wire itself, of a precise geometric size and micro-structure, might = become=20 a high temperature superconductor but only at an exact set = frequency which=20 thus far cannot be propagated in available circuitry.
 
These particulates in metals are usually, but not always, grouped = around a=20 certain well-defined size. This particulate is similar=20 to what are called "grains" in metals but smaller. IOW with DC = current, the conduction electrons bump around at "mixed" or non-coherent = rate=20 but at a shared common overlapping wavelength, as a normal way of = propagation.=20 When we make this wavelength "coherent" by any other means, such as by=20 temperature regulation or by a phase-lock in frequency, then... voila: = resonance=20 - often leading to superconductivity - is poised to become an "emergent" = property of the imposed coherence. This is the cross-over point and = shared=20 characteristic between LENR and HTSC (high temperature = superconductivity).
 
For frequencies much less than this particulate size, an electron = suffers=20 many scattering events per driving cycle and ohmic loss is more = apparent. When=20 we think about various sized particles in shared (or group) motion, = there are=20 *phonons,* which can be called the "sound wave" particle; which varies=20 tremendously in size based upon the mechanical properties of the host. = In=20 metals, phonons are often near-spherical or ovoid, and can = theoretically=20 extend all the way down to nano-particles of several hundred atoms, = acting=20 as if were a single unit. But in this case, that is - in the case of = either LENR=20 or HTSC we seem to looking at a particulate which is closer to=20 10-100 microns in diameter or wavelength (best guess).
 
Of course our perception of "sound" is dominated by association = with=20 "waves." Even "spin," the unit of angular momentum has its own "wave," = the spin=20 wave. The study of this in electromagnetics is called "spintronics" = which is a=20 subset of excitronics. The actual estimates on the  limit of = excitronics go=20 up to 100 terahertz - which is well in the infrared  = electromagnetic=20 spectrum. It is no coincidence that HTSC seems to max-out near this = equivalent=20 temperature.
 
It is my belief that if LENR is performed at cryogenic temperatures = with an=20 associated coherency imposed on top of the temperature, that BEC-like = fusion=20 will be poised to happen - the only problem being that the energy = release could=20 be catastrophic.
 
Terahertz radiation, in general, is "non-ionizing" and spans = the gap=20 between light and radio waves in the electromagnetic spectrum. It shares = useful=20 characteristics of both its neighbors; such as - like radio waves,=20 terahertz waves pass easily through many solid materials, yet they can = also be=20 focused like light to create sharp images. What happens when one gets = the three=20 different forms of mass/energy :
1) photons
2) electrons (leptons)
3) phonons
 What happens when one gets ALL three into mutual=20 coherency?
 
Lets hope it does not sound too much like "Pop goes the weasel". = And due to=20 many interlocking considerations, it seems to be only possible to get = all three=20 of these into overlapping media into coherency within a very = narrow=20 range of parameters, which seems to be between about 10 microns, 30 = terahertz=20 (on the high end) corresponding to "body temperature" and about 100 = microns, 3 terahertz on the low end "pretty damn cold.".
For the intrepid LENR researcher who wants to delve into = excitronics, (and=20 tempt fate) there are lasers available now which generate = light at=20 frequencies of about100 terahertz, so we are not that far off what is = needed.=20 Can this be downshifted through filters?  The cutting edge of = lasers is=20 called Free Electron Laser (FEL) and this "should" end up being = available at 30=20 THz soon, and if not soon enough for your needs, then it has been said = that they=20 are not difficult to construct if, that is, a "set" rather than an=20 adjustable, frequency is acceptable...
 
...who knows... perhaps one would want to make the FEL "beam dump" = to serve=20 double duty as the LENR target ?
 
Jones
 
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_0098_01C4CA3E.845EB980-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Nov 14 16:36:08 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAF0Zxu3014277; Sun, 14 Nov 2004 16:35:59 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAF0ZrTJ014241; Sun, 14 Nov 2004 16:35:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 16:35:53 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4197F9DA.3000309@ihug.co.nz> Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 13:35:38 +1300 From: John Berry User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Windows/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Relativity is wrong thought experiment Re: Dr Essen and the Beta-aether References: <2.2.32.20041114161304.006896a8@pop.freeserve.net> In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.20041114161304.006896a8@pop.freeserve.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56431 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Here's a thought experiment I created some years ago. Two incredibly long space trains on close parallel tracks, each cabin having a clock visible to the passengers on the other train. As both trains are stationary initially, it is a reasonably straightforward task to ensure that the clocks in each cabin on both trains are perfectly synchronized. Each cabin has it's own propulsion unit, at the strike of 12:00 each cabin in train A is accelerated to near the speed of light in less than a second from any point of view. Now we know that the "stationary" train B should see the "moving" train A's clocks slow down. However there are no preferred reference frames, so A should see B's clocks as having slowed. What happens if Train A now comes to a stop? The passengers on each train have very different expectations, They both expect their clocks to be significantly ahead of the clocks on the other trains. (they can't both be right) If you argue that the clocks on the two trains are not still almost perfectly synchronized, and Assumed that train A's clocks are retarded, then that would have been apparent to both Trains while A was moving. But this is only possible with a preferred reference frame, that frame could be discovered by moving trains in different directions and axes, you could find the true stationary frame where time moves the fastest! And now let's say that at the start of this journey, two twins one getting in a cabin on train A the other getting in a cabin on train B, both cabins initially across from each other. Then train A speeds off at almost the speed of light, both twins can see the time on the clocks of the other train. (as all the clocks on each cabin are identical and in sync it doesn't matter which clock the twin sees) Train A comes to a stop as before, but then reverses direction and before you know it, is speeding off at the speed of light again back where it came, coming to a stop so the two twins cabins are again directly across from each other. Now we know exactly what is meant to happen here, train A's clock and twin are meant to have experienced less time. But again this is impossible as this would have had to have been visible the whole time, and the twin on train A would have to have seen the clocks on B speed up! You see the time dilation effect and twin paradox relies on you being confused by Doppler effects and communication delay. The length contraction can also be exposed by putting two lasers on train A one cabin apart, at a specified time both fire leaving a mark on the opposite train. Each train would have different expectations, B's being that the marks it sustained would be close together because it saw A's length contract. However the occupants on A must have seen train B contract, and would expect the marks to be quite distant. Yet again, both can't be right yet relativity claims it is. Now a slightly different thought experiment. Take a long ruler, place a flash bulb at each end. And in the center place a photo detector. The flash bulbs are synchronized to go off at the same time. Now that being the case, and the photo detector being in the middle, the light from both should reach the photo detector at the same time. Now let's take another long identical ruler parallel to the first, this ruler also has a photo detector in the middle: b-------------------D-------------------b --------------------D-------------------- - ruler body, D photo detector. Best viewed in a fixed width font. Now what happens if we begin to move the second ruler? (Either begin moving it after the flash bulbs have gone off but before it's close to the detector, or maybe it was already moving and was simply lined up with the first ruler at the moment the bulbs went off.) Well the pulses of light from the flash bulb still need to meet the first rulers photo detector simultaneously. But because the speed of light must be seen to be constant to the second ruler also, it must detect the light from both flash bulbs simultaneously. But the light from the flash bulbs can only intersect (need a better word there) once. They can't pass each other twice at two different places. note: I am aware I should say rule not ruler, but damn it if the president of the "only super power" can say misunderestimate, and can't pronounce Nuclear then you shouldn't be giving me a hard time about ruler vs rule. The fact is that relativity is wrong. The aether drift experiments show there is a drift. Drift has been detected by all experiments. But not a drift through an absolute universal frame (a rather absurd notion), but an aether entrained and dragged by the earth. Time dilation and length contraction and so much that relativity claim is indeed true, except it's not relative. The effects are results of moving through the aether. Now, one thing on my mind, that few seem to consider is the Bernoulli effect being considered as physics not just fluid dynamics. Simply stated, the faster a fluid moves, it's pressure drops. But how can it's pressure simply drop? It must actually shrink or experience width contraction? and moving relative to what? And if fluids shrink (experiences significant width contraction when they move) then why wouldn't solid matter? (unless fluids don't entrain the aether but solids do) Oh is the Bernoulli not real after all? (I do believe there is some debate) Here is some reading: http://www.world-mysteries.com/sci_supr.htm Grimer wrote: >I once had the good fortune to be invited to Dr Essen's house to >discuss my work on the Beta-aether/atmosphere. The other day >whilst googling "Mikhail Gershteyn" I came across this rather >interesting essay of his. > >I hope it's not considered too off topic - it does after all >finish up with an observation I'm sure most Vortexians will >agree with, viz., > > ==================================================== > It is sad if [Vallée's] ideas were not fully studied > because the nuclear fusion programmes throughout > the world seem to make little progress in spite > of the billions spent on them. > ==================================================== > >...and many more billions since Louis wrote that. > > >======================================================== > >---------- >RELATIVITY >---------- > >Einstein’s theory of relativity was dealt with very >briefly in my university course but we were told that we >must not expect to understand it. I accepted this >situation and I have since discovered that most >physicists are content to remain in the same position >assuming that it must be right because it is generally >accepted. My doubts about it arose when I found that the >experts did not understand either. An exchange of >letters in Nature between Dingle and McCrea showed that >they had opposite views about some of the predictions of >the theory and the arguments advanced on both sides were >in my view illogical and unconvincing. Much of the >discussion about the theory was concerned with the >readings of clocks when they are moving relatively to >each other, and since I had a wide experience of >comparing clocks and measuring time it seemed to be >almost a duty to take a closer interest in the >controversy especially as some of the so-called >relativity effects although very small were not >insignificant in the definition of the atomic second >and the use of atomic clocks. > >It is always better to refer to the original papers >rather than to second hand accounts and I, therefore, >studied Einstein’s famous paper, often regarded as one >of the most important contributions in the history of >science. Imagine my surprise when I found that it was in >some respects one of the worse papers I had ever read. >The terminology and style were unscientific and >ambiguous; one of his assumptions is given on different >pages in two contradictory forms, some of his statements >were open to different interpretations and the worst >fault in my view, was the use of thought-experiments. >This practice is contrary to the scientific method which >is based on conclusions drawn from the results of actual >experiments. My first thoughts were, that in spite of >its obvious faults of presentation, the theory must be >basically sound, and before committing my criticisms to >print I read widely round the subject. The additional >reading only confirmed my belief that the theory was >marred by its own internal contradictions. Relativitists >often state that the theory is accepted by all >scientists of repute but this is quite untrue. It has >been strongly criticised by many scientists, including >at least one Nobel prize winner. Most of the criticisms >are of a general nature drawing attention to its many >contradictions, so I decided to pin-point the errors >which give rise to the contradictions, giving the page >and line in Einstein’s paper, thus making it difficult >for relativitists to dodge them and obscure them in a >morass of irrational discussion. > > >Special Theory flawed > >There were definite errors about which there can be no >argument. One was the assumption that the velocity of >light is constant. This is contrary to the foundations >of science and the fact that it is repeated in all the >textbooks I have seen, shows how little these >foundations are understood by theoretical physicists. >Science is based on the results of experiment and these >results must be expressed in a single coherent set of >units. The unit of length was the metre and the unit of >time was the second. Velocity was a measured quantity as >so many metres per second. Even though it was found to >be constant under certain conditions, it was quite wrong >to make it a constant by definition under all >conditions. Only the unit of measurement can be made >constant by definition and Einstein’s assumption >constituted a duplication of units. It was this >duplication that led to puzzling and contradictory >results and not the profundity of the theory as >relativitists like us to believe. > >The question of units is a rather complicated one; and >in this instance some writers are confused by the fact >that the velocity of light is now often used as a >standard, distances being calculated from the time of >travel of a pulse of light or radio waves; but the value >used is the measured value and the conditions of >measurement are carefully defined. Quite recently a >further complication has arisen. At the end of our work >at the NPL we made the suggestion that as the techniques >improved it might be advantageous to redefine the units >of measurement, keeping the atomic second, giving a >defined value to the velocity of light and discarding >the unit of length. This has now been done, but these >developments do not affect the criticisms of the theory. >Even with these units it would still be absurd to assume >that the velocity would be the same for two observers in >relative motion. Units must be used with common sense. > > >Thought experiments > >The other glaring mistake occurred in the course of one >of his thought experiments. Einstein had never made any >actual experiments, as far as I can find, and he >certainly had no idea of how to compare clocks. He >imagined two identical clocks side by side and supposed >one of them to move away at a uniform velocity and then >return. According to one of the results deduced from the >theory a moving clock appears to go slower than the >stationary one when viewed from the stationary position. >Calling the clocks A and B the predictions are: > >B is slower than A as seen from A > >and since velocity is only relative and either of the >clocks can be regarded as the moving one: > >A is slower than B as seen from B > >This is certainly strange although not logically >impossible. It implies that something happens to the >signals during their transmission. He then outlines his >experiment without giving any details of how the >measurements are made and concludes that: > >B is slower than A > >and although he does not specifically say so: > >A is slower than B > >in accordance with the relativity principle. > >This result is of course impossible, and is usually >called the clock paradox. Many thousands of words have >been written about it, but the explanation is simply >that he did not go through the correct procedures in >making his experiment. It is a very simple experiment, >being carried out every day in clock comparisons, and >the correct result agrees with his predictions as indeed >it must do since a thought experiment cannot give a new >result. The predictions themselves are also inexplicable >but this is one of the consequences of the duplication >of units. > >I had rather naively thought that scientists would be >glad to have an explanation of the confusion which had >existed for so long and would at least pay some >attention to my explanation, since I had more practical >experience in these matters than all the relativitists >put together. But I was wrong. No one attempted to >refute my arguments although they justified Einstein by >repeating his thought experiment and his mistakes in >different forms. I was, however, dropped some pretty >broad hints that if I continued to criticise the theory >my reputation and career prospects were likely to >suffer. It was only a sideline to my experimental work >but I found it so interesting that I did not feel like >dropping it, and felt that it was very important that >the theory should be exposed. My Director was good about >it and said he had no objection himself as long as I did >not involve the NPL. I was beginning to realise that >scientists could be just as irrational as anyone else >and having accepted the theory as a faith without >understanding it they closed their minds to argument. >They also tried to suppress opposition and two of my >papers after being accepted by the referees were >mysteriously never published. > >I was not entirely without support and was invited to >write an article by the Oxford University Press. It was >not so comprehensive as they hoped, since I was not able >to devote as much time to it as I would have liked, and >lacked the secretarial assistance of my department, but >it was accepted and published as one of their Research >Papers (No. 5). The Director of the Royal Institution >also invited me to give one of their Friday Evening >Discourses. This was quite enthusiastically received and >I had many letters of congratulation, although, as I >noticed with some amusement, most of them were written >on private notepaper and not on the paper of their >organisations as one would normally expect. > >The history of relativity would make a fascinating study >and I regret that I do not feel competent to do it >myself. I have kept to those aspects dealing with units >of measurement and the comparison of clocks which I know >something about. It was inspired by the puzzling results >of an experiment made by Michelson and Morley. They >argued that if light travelled at a steady velocity >through the medium, or aether, and the surface of the >earth was moving through this medium there should be a >detectable effect on the movement, but they failed to >detect any. Fitzgerald and Lorentz gave an empirical >explanation that moving rods were shortened and moving >clocks were slowed down. Scientists badly wanted a more >detailed satisfactory explanation and this is what >Einstein thought he had done. All he did was to >introduce irrational ideas into physics and incorporate >the Lorentz explanation into electromagnetic theory as >an assumption. The original puzzling results, therefore, >remain and it is important to science that a true >explanation should be found. > > >Joke or swindle? > >The famous paper published in 1905 does not appear to >have attracted any attention until Eddington returned >from an expedition to study the eclipse in 1919, and >with great publicity announced to a meeting of the >Astronomical Society in London that the results had >proved Einstein’s theory. What he thought he had >confirmed was Einstein’s value for the bending of light >round the sun. Scientists were prepared to go to a lot >of trouble to obtain experimental evidence for the >theory as they realised that this was necessary and yet >Eddington is supposed to have said that the theory was >so satisfactory that if the experimental results did not >confirm it then they must be wrong. A criticism of the >results made later pointed out that in order to obtain >the result he wanted, some of the observations which did >not fit were ignored. Also someone has pointed out, with >some evidence, that Einstein himself had predicted two >results differing by 2 to 1 for the deflection. Finally >the deflection of the sun’s rays has nothing to do with >the special theory and the clock paradox and yet in some >mysterious way it was claimed to confirm it. Still >searching for experimental support an experiment was >made in the US some years ago. Four atomic clocks were >carried by plane in opposite directions round the world. >The discrepancies between the results for different >clocks were many times greater than the effect being >sought, and yet by ignoring the results they did not >like and performing some undescribed statistical >analysis the authors claimed to have confirmed >Einstein’s theory and specifically the clock paradox. >There was a spectacular television programme about it in >which a well-known actor was installed in a simulated >space shuttle and told that he would come back younger >than if he had stayed on earth. Being an intelligent man >he appeared to regard it as a lot of nonsense as I hope >the viewers did. > > >Unified field theory > >My intrusion into theoretical physics must be regarded >as a failure in that I did not convince the >relativitists of their mistakes. It may have had some >benefit in encouraging scientists to look for a rational >extension of electromagnetic theory to explain the many >mysteries not yet explained. There have been several >attempts, that of Rene L Vallée being in my view >particularly encouraging. It is a unified field theory >giving an electromagnetic explanation of gravitation, >and including a most important suggestion that it might >be possible to harness the gravitational energy of space >safely and economically. He argued that the nuclear >energy programme in France was wasteful and misdirected >and was in consequence obliged to leave the authority >for which he worked. It is sad if his ideas were not >fully studied because the nuclear fusion programmes >throughout the world seem to make little progress in >spite of the billions spent on them. >======================================================== > > > > > > > > > > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Nov 14 17:32:41 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAF1WVu3030116; Sun, 14 Nov 2004 17:32:31 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAF1WUDW030101; Sun, 14 Nov 2004 17:32:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 17:32:30 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: FZNIDARSIC@aol.com Message-ID: <25.526fdbc5.2ec96125@aol.com> Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 20:32:21 EST Subject: Re: Relativity is wrong thought experiment Re: Dr Essen and the Beta-aether To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_25.526fdbc5.2ec96125_boundary" X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6808 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56432 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --part1_25.526fdbc5.2ec96125_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/14/2004 7:36:33 PM Eastern Standard Time, antigrav@ihug.co.nz writes: > > The fact is that relativity is wrong. > The aether drift experiments show there is a drift. > Drift has been detected by all experiments. > > I would not go that far. I believe that the effects of special relativity come about due to the wave nature of matter. It works out if you consider the phase velocity of the matter wave to be c and its group velocity to be v. Matter acts like trapped light. The math on this is found on page 11 of chapter 7. http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/chapter7.html It is a simple and profound argument. It conflicts with standard theory in that standard theory states that matter consists of probability waves. These waves travel at velocity v. I state that matter consists of real waves that propagate at velocity c. These waves are held in place by restraining forces. No either required. Special relativity and the deBroglie wavelength happen to drop out of my argument. Frank Z --part1_25.526fdbc5.2ec96125_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 11/14/2004 7:36:= 33 PM Eastern Standard Time, antigrav@ihug.co.nz writes:


The fact is that relativity is wrong.
The aether drift experiments show there is a drift.
Drift has been detected by all experiments.



I would not go that far.  I believe that the effects of special relativ= ity come about due to the wave nature of matter.  It works out if you c= onsider the phase velocity of the matter wave to be c and its group velocity= to be v.  Matter acts like trapped light.  The math on this is fo= und on page 11 of chapter 7.

http://www.ang= elfire.com/scifi2/zpt/chapter7.html

It is a simple and profound argument.  It conflicts with standard theor= y in that standard theory states that matter consists of probability waves.&= nbsp; These waves travel at velocity v.  I state that matter consists o= f real waves that propagate at velocity c.  These waves are held in pla= ce by restraining forces.  No either required.  Special relativity= and the deBroglie wavelength happen to drop out of my argument.

Frank Z --part1_25.526fdbc5.2ec96125_boundary-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Nov 14 17:36:26 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAF1aMDk029042; Sun, 14 Nov 2004 17:36:22 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAF1a0ld028958; Sun, 14 Nov 2004 17:36:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 17:36:00 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: FZNIDARSIC@aol.com Message-ID: <55.6632c503.2ec961f9@aol.com> Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 20:35:53 EST Subject: Flying saucer music To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_55.6632c503.2ec961f9_boundary" X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6808 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56433 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --part1_55.6632c503.2ec961f9_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I sent this before but it did not come out. I got my Midisoft session 4 running and wrote some fun flying saucer music. http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/craft.html enjoy Frank Z --part1_55.6632c503.2ec961f9_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I sent this before but it did not c= ome out.  I got my Midisoft session 4 running and wrote some fun flying= saucer music.

http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/craft.html

enjoy

Frank Z --part1_55.6632c503.2ec961f9_boundary-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Nov 14 18:27:11 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAF2R56v011970; Sun, 14 Nov 2004 18:27:05 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAF2QrAI011887; Sun, 14 Nov 2004 18:26:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 18:26:53 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20041115022643.006c9774@pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk@pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 02:26:43 +0000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Relativity is wrong thought experiment Re: Dr Essen and the Beta-aether Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id iAF2Qo6v011865 Resent-Message-ID: <6b5kuC.A.m5C.tPBmBB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56434 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 01:35 pm 15-11-04 +1300, you wrote: >The fact is that relativity is wrong. >The aether drift experiments show there is a drift. >Drift has been detected by all experiments. > >But not a drift through an absolute universal frame (a rather absurd >notion), but an aether entrained and dragged by the earth. > >Time dilation and length contraction and so much that relativity claim >is indeed true, except it's not relative. >The effects are results of moving through the aether. > >Now, one thing on my mind, that few seem to consider is the Bernoulli >effect being considered as physics not just fluid dynamics. >Simply stated, the faster a fluid moves, it's pressure drops. >But how can its pressure simply drop? It must actually shrink or >experience width contraction? and moving relative to what? >And if fluids shrink (experiences significant width contraction when >they move) then why wouldn't solid matter? (unless fluids don't entrain >the aether but solids do) > >Oh is the Bernoulli not real after all? (I do believe there is some debate) > >Here is some reading: >http://www.world-mysteries.com/sci_supr.htm Excellent post John. 8-) And you are so right about Bernoulli. As you imply, we should be thinking about a whole hierarchy of aethers. I deal with this point in our Southampton paper which I've posted to Ing.Saviour of Blaze Labs. He is setting up a new web site in addition to his Yahoo site. At present he seems to be having problems in getting the files organised but I'll post the URL of the Southampton paper on Vortex when it appears. Cheers Grimer >Grimer wrote: > >>I once had the good fortune to be invited to Dr Essen's house to >>discuss my work on the Beta-aether/atmosphere. The other day >>whilst googling "Mikhail Gershteyn" I came across this rather >>interesting essay of his. >> >>I hope it's not considered too off topic - it does after all >>finish up with an observation I'm sure most Vortexians will >>agree with, viz., >> >> ==================================================== >> It is sad if [Vallée's] ideas were not fully studied >> because the nuclear fusion programmes throughout >> the world seem to make little progress in spite >> of the billions spent on them. >> ==================================================== >> >>...and many more billions since Louis wrote that. >> >> >>======================================================== >> >>---------- >>RELATIVITY >>---------- >> >>Einstein’s theory of relativity was dealt with very >>briefly in my university course....... From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Nov 14 19:10:03 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAF39wxq021444; Sun, 14 Nov 2004 19:09:58 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAF39uPe021419; Sun, 14 Nov 2004 19:09:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 19:09:56 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20041115030944.006b2b88@pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk@pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 03:09:44 +0000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Relativity is wrong thought experiment Re: Dr Essen and the Beta-aether Resent-Message-ID: <5o3huC.A.nOF.D4BmBB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56435 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 01:35 pm 15-11-04 +1300, you wrote: >Here is some reading: >http://www.world-mysteries.com/sci_supr.htm A very good summation of the deplorable situation in which science finds itself. I have copied the Intro. below to give Vortexians the flavour of the long article. There is quite a bit on Cold Fusion as well which will be of interest. ============================================================ Introduction Science is in a state of crisis. Where free inquiry, natural curiosity and open-minded discussion and consideration of new ideas should reign, a new orthodoxy has emerged. This 'new inquisition', as it has been called by Robert Anton Wilson[2] consists not of cardinals and popes, but of the editors and reviewers of scientific journals, of leading authorities and self-appointed "skeptics", and last but not least of corporations and governments that have a vested interest in keeping the status quo, and it is just as effective in suppressing unorthodox ideas as the original. The scientists in the editorial boards of journals who decide which research is fit to be published, and which is not, the scientists at the patent office who decide what feats nature allows human technology to perform, and which ones it does not, and the scientists in governmental agencies who decide what proposals to fund, and not to fund, either truly believe that they are in complete knowledge of all the fundamental laws of nature, or they purposely suppress certain discoveries that threaten the scientific prestige of individuals or institutions, or economic interests. Research that indicates that an accepted theory is incomplete, severely flawed, or completely mistaken, will be rejected on the grounds that it "contradicts the laws of nature", and therefore has to be the result of sloppiness or fraud. At the heart of this argument is the incorrect notion that *theory overrides evidence*. ============================================================ It is a pity that the only place the wheat can find to germinate is a field containing a lot of cockle. I regret to say that Dr.Essen was reduced to the same plight and had the misjudgment to publish some of his work in a violently anti-semitic periodical - all the more unfortunate in view of his Germano-phone name. I fear that until relativity is uncoupled from the prestige of the Jewish nation, there will be an insuperable stumbling block to objectivity on this topic. Grimer From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Nov 14 19:36:35 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAF3aUxq031597; Sun, 14 Nov 2004 19:36:30 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAF3aTT6031581; Sun, 14 Nov 2004 19:36:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 19:36:29 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000e01c4cac4$48ca8850$9f017841@xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Relativity is relative Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 21:36:24 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000A_01C4CA91.FDA9AA40"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.8 required=4.0 tests=HTML_30_40,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56436 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C4CA91.FDA9AA40 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000B_01C4CA91.FDA9AA40" ------=_NextPart_001_000B_01C4CA91.FDA9AA40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankJohn Berry's post regarding thought experiments reminded me of my = recent post regarding a "house of mirrors". Using a floor mounted projector (set at an angle allowing no = obstruction) to cast an image upon a perforated aluminized screen hung = center in a room having full mirrors of opposite walls from the center = screen permits some " mind games" to be played. Consider the image = projected upon the screen is reflected on the adjacent mirror while the = image also " bleeds" through the perforated screen to reflect upon the = mirror on the opposite wall behind the perforated screen which in turn = "bleeds" through the back of the perforated screen Question? how would the images cascading across the room relate from the = inverse image? Can the cascading time differential be measured = considering the number of reflections become infinite ? All of which demonstrates that in Texas.. one can do wonders with = numbers while eating cucumbers. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_000B_01C4CA91.FDA9AA40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
John Berry's post regarding thought = experiments reminded=20 me of my recent post regarding a "house of mirrors".
 
Using a floor mounted projector (set at an = angle=20 allowing no obstruction) to cast an image upon a perforated aluminized = screen=20 hung center in a room having full mirrors of opposite walls from the = center=20 screen permits some " mind games" to be played. Consider the image = projected=20 upon the screen is reflected on the adjacent mirror while the image also = "=20 bleeds" through the perforated screen to reflect upon the mirror on the = opposite=20 wall behind the perforated screen which in turn "bleeds" through the = back of the=20 perforated screen
 
Question? how would the images cascading = across the room=20 relate from the inverse image?  Can the cascading time differential = be=20 measured considering the number of reflections become infinite = ?
 
All of which demonstrates that in Texas.. one = can do=20 wonders with numbers while eating cucumbers.
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_000B_01C4CA91.FDA9AA40-- ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C4CA91.FDA9AA40 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000901c4cac4$483c7920$9f017841@xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C4CA91.FDA9AA40-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Nov 14 22:57:28 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAF6vODf008522; Sun, 14 Nov 2004 22:57:24 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAF6vJAm008486; Sun, 14 Nov 2004 22:57:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 22:57:19 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.20041114161304.006896a8@pop.freeserve.net> References: <2.2.32.20041114161304.006896a8@pop.freeserve.net> Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 00:55:50 -0600 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: Dr Essen and the Beta-aether Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1161; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56437 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Someone posted an article questioning G R; I was surprised by the issue of Infinite Energy in which Eugene found lots of scientists who were willing to criticize it. I noticed that the author mentioned the light bending and the atomic clocks on airplanes, which are often sited as supporting the theory. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Nov 15 03:12:34 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAFBCTeX004400; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 03:12:29 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAFBCQCo004377; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 03:12:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 03:12:26 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <410-2200411115101112590@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: EXTRAORDINARY BIOLOGY, Electronium Catalysts? Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 04:11:12 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940d4c04a8a1899cdf1b57c42cc057d38d8350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.109 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56438 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII >From Tom Beardon's Website: Fun Reading. :-) http://www.cheniere.org/books/aids/ch5.htm " In 1978 an officially-funded effort of the U .S. Army Mobility Equipment Research and Development Command, Fort Belvoir, Virginia positively confirmed that mechanisms for elemental transmutations could occur in biological systems, from an energy consideration. The work was performed under the direction of Emil J. York, Chief of the Material Technology Laboratory. Solomon Goldfein was the principal investigator for the effort. Robert C. McMillan, Chief of the Radiation Research Group of the laboratory, provided guidance on matters of physics and nuclear physics. The abstract of the final report (S. Goldfein, Report 2247, Energy Development from Elemental Transmutations in Biological Systems, U .S. Army Mobility Equipment Research and Development Command, May 1978. DDC No. AD AO56906.) reads as follows: "The purpose of the study was to determine whether recent disclosures of elemental transmutations occurring in biological entities have revealed new possible sources of energy. The works of Kervran, Komaki, and others were surveyed, and it was concluded that, granted the existence of such transmutations (Na to Mg, K to Ca, and Mn to Fe), then a net surplus of energy was also produced. A proposed mechanism was described in which Mg adenosine triphosphate, located in the mitochondrion of the cell, played a double role as an energy producer. In addition to the widely accepted biochemical role of MgATP in which it produces energy as it disintegrates part by part, MgATP can also be considered to be a cyclotron on a molecular scale. The MgATP when placed in layers one atop the other has all the attributes of a cyclotron in accordance with the requirements set forth by E.O. Lawrence, inventor of the cyclotron. " "It was concluded that elemental transmutations were indeed occurring in life organisms and were probably accompanied by a net energy gain." " The researchers also concluded that elemental transmutations occurring in life organisms are accompanied by losses in mass representing conversion to thermal energy, and that such energy probably is a net gain when compared to the amount required to effect the transmutation." What about all of those Manganese "Nodules" at the bottom of the ocean? http://www.crystalinks.com/ocean3.html "Two significant mysteries surround manganese nodules. Drilling and coring in the sediment column has shown that nodules are vastly more abundant at the seafloor than below it and that the rate of growth of nodules is 10 times slower than the lowest known sedimentation rates. If such is the case, the nodules should be quickly buried and should be common in the sediment below the seafloor. Current theories for explaining these observations propose that bottom currents keep areas of nodule growth free of sediment deposition and that burrowing organisms nudge and roll the nodules in the process of feeding, thereby keeping them at the surface of the seafloor. Observations in the deep sea support both explanations. " Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
From Tom Beardon's Website: Fun Reading.  :-)
 

   "  In 1978 an officially-funded effort of the U .S. Army Mobility Equipment Research and Development Command, Fort Belvoir, Virginia positively confirmed that mechanisms for elemental transmutations could occur in biological systems, from an energy consideration.
     The work was performed under the direction of Emil J. York, Chief of the Material Technology Laboratory.  Solomon Goldfein was the principal investigator for the effort. Robert C. McMillan, Chief of the Radiation Research Group of the laboratory, provided guidance on matters of physics and nuclear physics.
     The abstract of the final report (S. Goldfein, Report 2247, Energy Development from Elemental Transmutations in Biological Systems, U .S. Army Mobility Equipment Research and Development Command, May 1978. DDC No. AD AO56906.) reads as follows:

     "The purpose of the study was to determine whether recent disclosures of elemental transmutations occurring in biological entities have revealed new possible sources of energy.  The works of Kervran, Komaki, and others were surveyed, and it was concluded that, granted the existence of such transmutations (Na to Mg, K to Ca, and Mn to Fe), then a net surplus of energy was also produced.  A proposed mechanism was described in which Mg adenosine triphosphate, located in the mitochondrion of the cell, played a double role as an energy producer.  In addition to the widely accepted biochemical role of MgATP in which it produces energy as it disintegrates part by part, MgATP can also be considered to be a cyclotron on a molecular scale.  The MgATP when placed in layers one atop the other has all the attributes of a cyclotron in accordance with the requirements set forth by E.O. Lawrence, inventor of the cyclotron. "
     "It was concluded that elemental transmutations were indeed occurring in life organisms and were probably accompanied by a net energy gain." 

"  The researchers also concluded that elemental transmutations occurring in life organisms are accompanied by losses in mass representing conversion to thermal energy, and that such energy probably is a net gain when compared to the amount required to effect the transmutation."

What about all of those Manganese "Nodules" at the bottom of

the ocean?

http://www.crystalinks.com/ocean3.html

"Two significant mysteries surround manganese nodules. Drilling and coring in the sediment column has shown that nodules are vastly more abundant at the seafloor than below it and that the rate of growth of nodules is 10 times slower than the lowest known sedimentation rates. If such is the case, the nodules should be quickly buried and should be common in the sediment below the seafloor. Current theories for explaining these observations propose that bottom currents keep areas of nodule growth free of sediment deposition and that burrowing organisms nudge and roll the nodules in the process of feeding, thereby keeping them at the surface of the seafloor. Observations in the deep sea support both explanations. "

Frederick

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Nov 15 05:34:13 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAFDY0Df024175; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 05:34:08 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAFDXwjA024165; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 05:33:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 05:33:58 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <410-2200411115123242760@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Helectronium Transmutations in Sea Water? Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 06:32:42 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940525b280a71aec16588289f380cd67c04350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.117.66 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56439 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Although the crustal (and inland lakes) abundance of potassium is about the same as that of sodium, strangely, it is about 1/27th that of sodium in sea water. http://www.webelements.com/webelements/elements/text/Na/geol.html This suggests that Helium (As Helectronium) from radioactive decay in the earth, is seeping or venting into the sea floor and "tube worms" are using it to effect a chain of transmutations that also use H2, D2, and Lithium. http://ie.lbl.gov/education/isotopes.htm El Nino from the heat effect? Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

Although the crustal (and inland lakes) abundance  of potassium is about the same as that of sodium,
strangely, it is about 1/27th that of sodium in sea water.
 
 
This suggests that Helium (As Helectronium) from radioactive decay in the earth, is seeping
or venting into the sea floor and "tube worms" are using it to effect a chain of transmutations
that also use H2, D2, and Lithium.
 
 
El Nino from the heat effect?
 
Frederick
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Nov 15 09:27:49 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAFHReDf008370; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 09:27:41 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAFHRce5008356; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 09:27:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 09:27:38 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=Ng5jzRG3Qq8s15GLJNVXJE/uwKO5ZSmjNa+xFDuYmurSmSXUEFm5b8ZrDy8Ulr1L6q38ubl7PgymZkdHW9Jkstz15BnANuLpLwh50p/L9kd/UL+5bPUwBLEdqmUDMvbJUXDvqvWOaVrU4a0k59Ew00AxHqSGhIOwESrS9uU9Fho= ; Message-ID: <20041115172724.62180.qmail@web54507.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 09:27:24 -0800 (PST) From: Adam Cox Subject: Bernoulli was: Relativity is wrong thought experiment To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <4197F9DA.3000309@ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-229798069-1100539644=:61825" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56440 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-229798069-1100539644=:61825 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I'm cutting out most of the relativity stuff, my views having been expressed before and in general agreement with John's. On Bernoulli, the reason pressure decreases with speed is readily apparent when one considers the source of pressure. Pressure is the aggregate force per unit area of the molecules from a fluid or gas striking a surface. If the fluid is in motion, then these impacts are spread out over a greater area and the aggregate force is reduced. No funky relatavistic effects required. Merlyn John Berry wrote: [snip] Now, one thing on my mind, that few seem to consider is the Bernoulli effect being considered as physics not just fluid dynamics. Simply stated, the faster a fluid moves, it's pressure drops. But how can it's pressure simply drop? It must actually shrink or experience width contraction? and moving relative to what? And if fluids shrink (experiences significant width contraction when they move) then why wouldn't solid matter? (unless fluids don't entrain the aether but solids do) Oh is the Bernoulli not real after all? (I do believe there is some debate) [snip] Merlyn Magickal Engineer and Technical Metaphysicist __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --0-229798069-1100539644=:61825 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
I'm cutting out most of the relativity stuff, my views having been expressed before and in general agreement with John's.
On Bernoulli, the reason pressure decreases with speed is readily apparent when one considers the source of pressure.
 
Pressure is the aggregate force per unit area of the molecules from a fluid or gas striking a surface.  If the fluid is in motion, then these impacts are spread out over a greater area and the aggregate force is reduced.  No funky relatavistic effects required.
 
Merlyn

John Berry <antigrav@ihug.co.nz> wrote:

[snip]

Now, one thing on my mind, that few seem to consider is the Bernoulli
effect being considered as physics not just fluid dynamics.
Simply stated, the faster a fluid moves, it's pressure drops.
But how can it's pressure simply drop? It must actually shrink or
experience width contraction? and moving relative to what?
And if fluids shrink (experiences significant width contraction when
they move) then why wouldn't solid matter? (unless fluids don't entrain
the aether but solids do)

Oh is the Bernoulli not real after all? (I do believe there is some debate)

[snip]



Merlyn
Magickal Engineer and Technical Metaphysicist

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com --0-229798069-1100539644=:61825-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Nov 15 09:30:35 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAFHUQDf009680; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 09:30:26 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAFHUP8N009660; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 09:30:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 09:30:25 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: "Vortex" , Subject: RE: EXTRAORDINARY BIOLOGY, Electronium Catalysts? Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 12:29:29 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <410-2200411115101112590@earthlink.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56441 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hey Fred, Here's a link to Goldfein's report. http://www.rexresearch.com/goldfein/goldfein.htm Kevrans book is also posted to this site. http://www.rexresearch.com/kervran/kervran.htm K. -----Original Message----- From: Frederick Sparber [mailto:fjsparber@earthlink.net] Sent: Monday, November 15, 2004 5:11 AM To: vortex-l Subject: Re: EXTRAORDINARY BIOLOGY, Electronium Catalysts? >From Tom Beardon's Website: Fun Reading. :-) http://www.cheniere.org/books/aids/ch5.htm " In 1978 an officially-funded effort of the U .S. Army Mobility Equipment Research and Development Command, Fort Belvoir, Virginia positively confirmed that mechanisms for elemental transmutations could occur in biological systems, from an energy consideration. The work was performed under the direction of Emil J. York, Chief of the Material Technology Laboratory. Solomon Goldfein was the principal investigator for the effort. Robert C. McMillan, Chief of the Radiation Research Group of the laboratory, provided guidance on matters of physics and nuclear physics. The abstract of the final report (S. Goldfein, Report 2247, Energy Development from Elemental Transmutations in Biological Systems, U .S. Army Mobility Equipment Research and Development Command, May 1978. DDC No. AD AO56906.) reads as follows: "The purpose of the study was to determine whether recent disclosures of elemental transmutations occurring in biological entities have revealed new possible sources of energy. The works of Kervran, Komaki, and others were surveyed, and it was concluded that, granted the existence of such transmutations (Na to Mg, K to Ca, and Mn to Fe), then a net surplus of energy was also produced. A proposed mechanism was described in which Mg adenosine triphosphate, located in the mitochondrion of the cell, played a double role as an energy producer. In addition to the widely accepted biochemical role of MgATP in which it produces energy as it disintegrates part by part, MgATP can also be considered to be a cyclotron on a molecular scale. The MgATP when placed in layers one atop the other has all the attributes of a cyclotron in accordance with the requirements set forth by E.O. Lawrence, inventor of the! cyclotron. " "It was concluded that elemental transmutations were indeed occurring in life organisms and were probably accompanied by a net energy gain." " The researchers also concluded that elemental transmutations occurring in life organisms are accompanied by losses in mass representing conversion to thermal energy, and that such energy probably is a net gain when compared to the amount required to effect the transmutation." What about all of those Manganese "Nodules" at the bottom of the ocean? http://www.crystalinks.com/ocean3.html "Two significant mysteries surround manganese nodules. Drilling and coring in the sediment column has shown that nodules are vastly more abundant at the seafloor than below it and that the rate of growth of nodules is 10 times slower than the lowest known sedimentation rates. If such is the case, the nodules should be quickly buried and should be common in the sediment below the seafloor. Current theories for explaining these observations propose that bottom currents keep areas of nodule growth free of sediment deposition and that burrowing organisms nudge and roll the nodules in the process of feeding, thereby keeping them at the surface of the seafloor. Observations in the deep sea support both explanations. " Frederick From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Nov 15 10:06:38 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAFI6VDf019657; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 10:06:31 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAFI6U6R019648; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 10:06:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 10:06:30 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <410-2200411115175160@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: RE: EXTRAORDINARY BIOLOGY, Electronium Catalysts? Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 11:05:16 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94083bcd15aefff643c69466a8d7e7aedbd350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.165.239 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56442 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Great links Keith, thanks. "He measured the amount of lime in the oats, fed the oats to the hen, and then measured the amount of lime in the excretion and the eggs of the hen. The lime had increased fivefold. Vauquelin realized that lime had been created but he did not know why." A little ditty related to this we recited as kids: "Remember the time a dog pooped lime, and you picked up 'cause you thought it was a dime". :-) I recall Frederick Jueneman's column in Industrial Research magazine in the 70s. Frederick Keith wrote: > > Hey Fred, > > Here's a link to Goldfein's report. > > http://www.rexresearch.com/goldfein/goldfein.htm > > Kevrans book is also posted to this site. > > http://www.rexresearch.com/kervran/kervran.htm > > K. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Frederick Sparber [mailto:fjsparber@earthlink.net] From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Nov 15 11:48:35 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAFJmPeX008439; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 11:48:26 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAFJmNJr008419; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 11:48:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 11:48:23 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: "Vortex" , Subject: RE: EXTRAORDINARY BIOLOGY, Electronium Catalysts? Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 14:47:32 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-reply-to: <410-2200411115175160@earthlink.net> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Resent-Message-ID: <57nJLD.A.fDC.GgQmBB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56443 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hey Fred. Yeah, well, I remember getting pretty excited about the chickens. I even built some CF test electrodes with egg shell inclusions ( electrodeposited nickel with powdered eggshell and plenty of stirring ) It is worth considering that when you calculate the amount of energy released by the chicken given K->Ca the poor bird would be flaming white hot. OTOH, chickens can mobilize a lot of skeletal calcium to make eggs and I wonder if Kevran ever did the experiment and dropped his birds to see how high they bounce??? K. -----Original Message----- From: Frederick Sparber [mailto:fjsparber@earthlink.net] Sent: Monday, November 15, 2004 12:05 PM To: vortex-l Subject: RE: EXTRAORDINARY BIOLOGY, Electronium Catalysts? Great links Keith, thanks. "He measured the amount of lime in the oats, fed the oats to the hen, and then measured the amount of lime in the excretion and the eggs of the hen. The lime had increased fivefold. Vauquelin realized that lime had been created but he did not know why." A little ditty related to this we recited as kids: "Remember the time a dog pooped lime, and you picked up 'cause you thought it was a dime". :-) I recall Frederick Jueneman's column in Industrial Research magazine in the 70s. Frederick Keith wrote: > > Hey Fred, > > Here's a link to Goldfein's report. > > http://www.rexresearch.com/goldfein/goldfein.htm > > Kevrans book is also posted to this site. > > http://www.rexresearch.com/kervran/kervran.htm > > K. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Frederick Sparber [mailto:fjsparber@earthlink.net] From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Nov 15 11:55:14 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAFJt4eX011412; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 11:55:04 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAFJt1Ed011375; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 11:55:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 11:55:01 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <41990993.9000400@ihug.co.nz> Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 08:54:59 +1300 From: John Berry User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Windows/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Bernoulli was: Relativity is wrong thought experiment References: <20041115172724.62180.qmail@web54507.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20041115172724.62180.qmail@web54507.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56444 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Adam Cox wrote: > I'm cutting out most of the relativity stuff, my views having been > expressed before and in general agreement with John's. I am rather surprised, I posted it to 3 lists and no one has disagreed. Maybe relativity is really losing favor? It seems that people might finally be seeing the light as more and more evidence mounts. > On Bernoulli, the reason pressure decreases with speed is readily > apparent when one considers the source of pressure. > > Pressure is the aggregate force per unit area of the molecules from a > fluid or gas striking a surface. If the fluid is in motion, then > these impacts are spread out over a greater area and the aggregate > force is reduced. No funky relatavistic effects required. > > Merlyn > > */John Berry /* wrote: > > [snip] > > Now, one thing on my mind, that few seem to consider is the Bernoulli > effect being considered as physics not just fluid dynamics. > Simply stated, the faster a fluid moves, it's pressure drops. > But how can it's pressure simply drop? It must actually shrink or > experience width contraction? and moving relative to what? > And if fluids shrink (experiences significant width contraction when > they move) then why wouldn't solid matter? (unless fluids don't > entrain > the aether but solids do) > > Oh is the Bernoulli not real after all? (I do believe there is > some debate) > > [snip] > > > > Merlyn > Magickal Engineer and Technical Metaphysicist > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Nov 15 12:05:45 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAFK5dDf022961; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 12:05:39 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAFK5c6Q022946; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 12:05:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 12:05:38 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: FZNIDARSIC@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 15:05:26 EST Subject: It's not Pixar..Saucer music and animation... To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_cf.1bc75723.2eca6606_boundary" X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6808 Resent-Message-ID: <1dke-D.A.dmF.RwQmBB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56445 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --part1_cf.1bc75723.2eca6606_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It's my Midi music and Java script animation. http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/craft.html enjoy Frank Z --part1_cf.1bc75723.2eca6606_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It's my Midi music and Java script=20= animation.

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enjoy

Frank Z --part1_cf.1bc75723.2eca6606_boundary-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Nov 15 13:03:17 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAFL3DDf005546; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 13:03:14 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAFL1psK005187; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 13:01:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 13:01:51 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <410-220041111520038510@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: RE: EXTRAORDINARY BIOLOGY, Electronium Catalysts? Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 14:00:38 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940b1e9c7d68e06f9e2052ab8e2768871ac350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.159.66 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56446 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Keith wrote: > > It is > worth considering that when you calculate the amount of energy > released by the chicken given K->Ca the poor bird would be flaming > white hot. > The way the transmutations in CF cells react sans gammas and neutrons and slowly give off "heat after death" suggests that the synthesized Calcium is undergoing slow energy/heat output. This is common (years) for many of the isotopes. Perhaps this is why piles of chicken dung can catch fire. > Is Tyson passing up an ou heat source? :-) > > OTOH, chickens can mobilize a lot of skeletal calcium > to make eggs and I wonder if Kevran ever did the experiment > and dropped his birds to see how high they bounce??? > I'm sure he did. Frederick > K. > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Nov 15 13:36:26 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAFLaHeX009691; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 13:36:17 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAFLaFXX009683; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 13:36:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 13:36:15 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=SXTj5gzfkIfWM/oiozX5Y0ZFotZ2As7wASmIKCnWAaJt8ICkXoy/dLI3hzkiSiyV0OC1iWB88VahB7O5uwMgvPa27mKtd8GY81wuyWUJMFdz/1BJ3O+dX2J+uAe8f+ikSAd+rtdbpUoNwatalE8gd161uUpMesg28vNcpnYSFjg= ; Message-ID: <20041115213614.92731.qmail@web12823.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 13:36:14 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Crosiar Subject: RE: EXTRAORDINARY BIOLOGY, Electronium Catalysts? To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <410-220041111520038510@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56447 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: New poster here... In reading all of the speculation here about electronium and biology, any thoughts on spontaneous human combustion? My thoughts are that as one ages, salts tend to accumulate in the body. What if electronium is also condensed with these salts? Could they reach some type of "critical mass" resulting in an extreme release of energy. It would explain the extremely high temperatures reported... Just a thought. --- Frederick Sparber wrote: > > Keith wrote: > > > > > It is > > worth considering that when you calculate the > amount of energy > > released by the chicken given K->Ca the poor bird > would be flaming > > white hot. > > > The way the transmutations in CF cells react sans > gammas and neutrons and > slowly give off "heat after death" suggests that the > synthesized Calcium is > undergoing > slow energy/heat output. This is common (years) for > many of the isotopes. > Perhaps this is why piles of chicken dung can catch > fire. > > > Is Tyson passing up an ou heat source? :-) > > > > OTOH, chickens can mobilize a lot of skeletal > calcium > > to make eggs and I wonder if Kevran ever did the > experiment > > and dropped his birds to see how high they > bounce??? > > > I'm sure he did. > > Frederick > > K. > > > > > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Nov 15 14:13:40 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAFMDSDf025665; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 14:13:28 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAFMC1UH025295; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 14:12:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 14:12:01 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <419929D5.9070306@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 17:12:37 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: EXTRAORDINARY BIOLOGY, Electronium Catalysts? References: <410-220041111520038510@earthlink.net> In-Reply-To: <410-220041111520038510@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56448 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frederick Sparber wrote: >Is Tyson passing up an ou heat source? :-) > Tyson might have missed it; but, the Brits recognized the benefits of roasting chickens: http://www.joe-ks.com/archives_apr2004/Chicken_Nuclear.htm From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Nov 15 14:19:43 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAFMJUeX021493; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 14:19:30 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAFMJTcx021485; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 14:19:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 14:19:29 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: EXTRAORDINARY BIOLOGY, Electronium Catalysts? Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 17:18:40 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-reply-to: <20041115213614.92731.qmail@web12823.mail.yahoo.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56449 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Michael. SHC is a perennial favorite here. And it sort of fits with the Kevran work and others we've discussed. In the case of the chickens, it's the lack of a specific mineral ( calcium ) and an abundance of the precursor material ( you'll have to read the Kevran link I posted but I think it was mica ) which causes the claimed K->Ca reaction to occur. Perhaps people with strange diets would be more prone to SHC? Better to experiment with chickens; I can think of worse things than a flaming chicken madly dashing about the lab but the FCC would fine me for explaining much further. K. -----Original Message----- From: Michael Crosiar [mailto:crosiarcm@yahoo.com] Sent: Monday, November 15, 2004 4:36 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: EXTRAORDINARY BIOLOGY, Electronium Catalysts? New poster here... In reading all of the speculation here about electronium and biology, any thoughts on spontaneous human combustion? My thoughts are that as one ages, salts tend to accumulate in the body. What if electronium is also condensed with these salts? Could they reach some type of "critical mass" resulting in an extreme release of energy. It would explain the extremely high temperatures reported... Just a thought. --- Frederick Sparber wrote: > > Keith wrote: > > > > > It is > > worth considering that when you calculate the > amount of energy > > released by the chicken given K->Ca the poor bird > would be flaming > > white hot. > > > The way the transmutations in CF cells react sans > gammas and neutrons and > slowly give off "heat after death" suggests that the > synthesized Calcium is > undergoing > slow energy/heat output. This is common (years) for > many of the isotopes. > Perhaps this is why piles of chicken dung can catch > fire. > > > Is Tyson passing up an ou heat source? :-) > > > > OTOH, chickens can mobilize a lot of skeletal > calcium > > to make eggs and I wonder if Kevran ever did the > experiment > > and dropped his birds to see how high they > bounce??? > > > I'm sure he did. > > Frederick > > K. > > > > > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Nov 15 14:42:05 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAFMfqeX029166; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 14:41:53 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAFMfp5g029108; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 14:41:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 14:41:51 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001801c4cb64$01d1a0a0$d0bcfea9@jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: Excitronics and Szpak Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 14:39:34 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: <_dNkAB.A.wGH.uCTmBB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56450 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Ref the recent paper: http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/SzpakSprecursors.pdf Recently (to what cannot be described as overwhelming fanfare), I tried to introduce the concept of "Excitronics." This is a concept being tossed around in other fields, which the open-minded observer could think of as a possible "key" to the type of LENR where BEC-like "condensation" occurs - resulting eventually in nuclear reactions. These would most likely be the kind of reactions where you get a lot of transmutation but little excess energy. A good example may be the Szpak paper, which fortunately even comes with some *nice images* of excitons (see, I wasn't really pulling your leg after all). When very high current density is captured in a small effective circuit, electrons start to act collectively, and form what can be called "an electron gas" with strange and sometimes emergent properties, since many similar bosons can also begin to act as if they "were one" under high pressure (substituting for cold temperature), besides just the electrons - IOW as if they were a BEC-like "condensate". Thus, excitronics is similar to a QM effect but not of the low-probability variety, which is normal for QM. >From the Szpak paper: "This is illustrated in a series of SEM photographs taken from various runs. In the absence of an electric field, the electrode structure consists of globules, 3 - 7 microns in diameter, arranged in short columns [looking somewhat like grape clusters] Each of the individual globules is an aggregate of much smaller, almost spherical units, having a diameter in a sub-micron range. This structure is uniform throughout the electrode." Often there is a preferred "size" for the excitronic circuit structure, and often that size will coincide with what is known as a "particulate" of the metal or alloy through which the electrons would normally travel. For this experiment the 3-7 micron grape-like structures which you see in Figure 2.a)" the reference morphology" would be the Pd exciton "particulate," but these excitons are also composed of smaller nanoparticles. It is not stated what the ratio is but I suspect that the particulate (or phonon) is icosohedral - and may depend on the cross-interaction with the nested nanoparticles. Perhaps the secret to why palladium works a matrix doe LENR and not say, platinum, could be related to this geometric ordering more so than due to any other property of the metals. This gives hope that many alloys can be tailored to work by adjusting their phonon structure and nested nanostructure. Szpak used a strong electric field to get these results but I would bet a dollar to a donut hole that *much better* results would have come from using terahertz irradiation instead of an electric field - which cannot be very discriminating. This is a very important point. Exctitons are a derivative of a precise geometric size and micro-structure, and might have become a high temperature superconductor in other parameters. If the same field intensity were to have been created by a terahertz irradiation source, the results could have been much more dramatic, IMHO. Many of these particulates share a common wavelength - lets say the average diameter is >5 microns and the average circumference is ~15 microns. Perhaps a third of all the "grapes" will be close enough to become excitons. When we make this 15 micron wavelength "coherent", such as by temperature regulation and by an identical phase-lock in applied frequency, then... voila: resonance - often leading to local superconductivity around the particulate - is poised to become an "emergent" property of the imposed coherence. BTW the "effective" electric field of coherent terahertz light could easily reach a billion watts even with a fairly broad focal point. This is the cross-over point and shared characteristic between LENR and HTSC (high temperature superconductivity). Once that 15 micron particulate becomes locally superconductive the inherent magnetic field will soar to probably 10-15 tesla, and that is in addition to the already high internal effective pressure due to overpotential and high loading. Yes, this is too "far-out" and hypothetical for many researchers to even consider. And I haven't even yet broached the subject of all that electronium which could be within the nano-particle itself ;-) So all I can say at this point is that my hope is that Szpak et al. will at least have a look into the possibility of terahertz irradiation... (and I hope they observe the results from an adjoing bunker...) Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Nov 15 14:54:21 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAFMsGeX032085; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 14:54:16 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAFMqtk1031775; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 14:52:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 14:52:55 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <410-2200411115215142570@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: EXTRAORDINARY BIOLOGY, Electronium Catalysts? Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 15:51:42 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940f6026da22adfa21293bfa3c0720fbe81350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.159.212 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56451 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: > > Frederick Sparber wrote: > > >Is Tyson passing up an ou heat source? :-) > > > > Tyson might have missed it; but, the Brits recognized the benefits of > roasting chickens: > > http://www.joe-ks.com/archives_apr2004/Chicken_Nuclear.htm > Holy Smokes! It might be more cost effective keeping 1,000 chickens in your spare room (a million btu/day + ou poop u ) instead of using a gas furnace to heat your house this winter. :-) I always thought a newly hatched chick had more body mass than the egg it came from. If I recall, the incubating egg is permeable to air and the water vapor in it. Frederick From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Nov 15 14:55:21 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAFMtEeX032340; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 14:55:15 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAFMrr6q031975; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 14:53:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 14:53:53 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=ETdLObMaFEmFpdayEANQvzu4HxVeDrjscgIK8MM6ZGPXiM+Bc77rigvRjCKBx9kCdbgEvBBadAyau5vQG0IcDQqhohAfPjsGJw8OfESl5/zVEIlsbP8VlTxVUTVhFZez/aawPDo1uCgC7zLq6tT5hKX4X7y2HkkuoSK3TqyF18g= ; Message-ID: <20041115225353.10206.qmail@web12823.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 14:53:53 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Crosiar Subject: RE: EXTRAORDINARY BIOLOGY, Electronium Catalysts? To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <5ioLTD.A.hzH.BOTmBB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56452 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: But the real question is - should electronium have a USDA minimum daily requirement? --- Keith Nagel wrote: > Hi Michael. > > SHC is a perennial favorite here. And it sort > of fits with the Kevran work and others we've > discussed. In the case of the chickens, it's > the lack of a specific mineral ( calcium ) and an > abundance of the precursor material ( you'll > have to read the Kevran link I posted but I think > it was mica ) which causes the claimed K->Ca > reaction to occur. > > Perhaps people with strange diets would be more > prone to SHC? Better to experiment with chickens; I > can > think of worse things than a flaming chicken madly > dashing about the lab but the FCC would fine me > for explaining much further. > > K. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Michael Crosiar [mailto:crosiarcm@yahoo.com] > Sent: Monday, November 15, 2004 4:36 PM > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > Subject: RE: EXTRAORDINARY BIOLOGY, Electronium > Catalysts? > > > New poster here... > > In reading all of the speculation here about > electronium and biology, any thoughts on spontaneous > human combustion? My thoughts are that as one ages, > salts tend to accumulate in the body. What if > electronium is also condensed with these salts? > Could > they reach some type of "critical mass" resulting in > an extreme release of energy. It would explain the > extremely high temperatures reported... > > Just a thought. > > --- Frederick Sparber > wrote: > > > > > Keith wrote: > > > > > > > > It is > > > worth considering that when you calculate the > > amount of energy > > > released by the chicken given K->Ca the poor > bird > > would be flaming > > > white hot. > > > > > The way the transmutations in CF cells react sans > > gammas and neutrons and > > slowly give off "heat after death" suggests that > the > > synthesized Calcium is > > undergoing > > slow energy/heat output. This is common (years) > for > > many of the isotopes. > > Perhaps this is why piles of chicken dung can > catch > > fire. > > > > > Is Tyson passing up an ou heat source? :-) > > > > > > OTOH, chickens can mobilize a lot of skeletal > > calcium > > > to make eggs and I wonder if Kevran ever did the > > experiment > > > and dropped his birds to see how high they > > bounce??? > > > > > I'm sure he did. > > > > Frederick > > > K. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Nov 15 15:46:31 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAFNkHeX014481; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 15:46:17 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAFNkE53014468; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 15:46:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 15:46:14 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <41993200.FE2F9571@ix.netcom.com> Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 15:47:28 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Excitronics and Szpak References: <001801c4cb64$01d1a0a0$d0bcfea9@jonesb9pacbell> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <_bawL.A.AiD.G_TmBB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56453 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Well Jones, I don't want to debate the possibility of "Excitronics", but your use of the Szpak paper is not the best evidence. They made two errors. They claimed the aluminum resulted from transmutation and they claimed that the deposited morphology resulted from an applied external electric field. I addressed the first earlier. In the second case, the applied field could have only had an indirect effect. The electrolyte is a good conductor. An external electric field can not penetrate a conductor. At the very least, the ions would follow the lines of electropotential in such a way as to neutralize the gradient. This would cause a change in convection currents within the cell and this would cause fluid to pass across the deposited surface. This change in fluid flow is the cause of the change in morphology. Simple mechanical stirring would have produced the same effect. In addition, the type of crystal growth depends on applied current and the ion concentration. Several different types of deposit are known and can be easily made by changing the "normal" conditions. I see nothing in this work that is anomalous or new. Regards, Ed Jones Beene wrote: > Ref the recent paper: > > http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/SzpakSprecursors.pdf > > Recently (to what cannot be described as overwhelming > fanfare), I tried to introduce the concept of "Excitronics." > This is a concept being tossed around in other fields, which > the open-minded observer could think of as a possible "key" > to the type of LENR where BEC-like "condensation" occurs - > resulting eventually in nuclear reactions. These would most > likely be the kind of reactions where you get a lot of > transmutation but little excess energy. A good example may > be the Szpak paper, which fortunately even comes with some > *nice images* of excitons (see, I wasn't really pulling your > leg after all). > > When very high current density is captured in a small > effective circuit, electrons start to act collectively, and > form what can be called "an electron gas" with strange and > sometimes emergent properties, since many similar bosons can > also begin to act as if they "were one" under high pressure > (substituting for cold temperature), besides just the > electrons - IOW as if they were a BEC-like "condensate". > Thus, excitronics is similar to a QM effect but not of the > low-probability variety, which is normal for QM. > > >From the Szpak paper: > "This is illustrated in a series of SEM photographs taken > from various runs. In the absence of an electric field, the > electrode structure consists of globules, 3 - 7 microns in > diameter, arranged in short columns [looking somewhat like > grape clusters] Each of the individual globules is an > aggregate of much smaller, almost spherical units, having a > diameter in a sub-micron range. This structure is uniform > throughout the electrode." > > Often there is a preferred "size" for the excitronic circuit > structure, and often that size will coincide with what is > known as a "particulate" of the metal or alloy through which > the electrons would normally travel. For this experiment > the 3-7 micron grape-like structures which you see in Figure > 2.a)" the reference morphology" would be the Pd exciton > "particulate," but these excitons are also composed of > smaller nanoparticles. It is not stated what the ratio is > but I suspect that the particulate (or phonon) is > icosohedral - and may depend on the cross-interaction with > the nested nanoparticles. > > Perhaps the secret to why palladium works a matrix doe LENR > and not say, platinum, could be related to this geometric > ordering more so than due to any other property of the > metals. This gives hope that many alloys can be tailored to > work by adjusting their phonon structure and nested > nanostructure. > > Szpak used a strong electric field to get these results but > I would bet a dollar to a donut hole that *much better* > results would have come from using terahertz irradiation > instead of an electric field - which cannot be very > discriminating. > > This is a very important point. Exctitons are a derivative > of a precise geometric size and micro-structure, and might > have become a high temperature superconductor in other > parameters. If the same field intensity were to have been > created by a terahertz irradiation source, the results could > have been much more dramatic, IMHO. > > Many of these particulates share a common wavelength - lets > say the average diameter is >5 microns and the average > circumference is ~15 microns. Perhaps a third of all the > "grapes" will be close enough to become excitons. When we > make this 15 micron wavelength "coherent", such as by > temperature regulation and by an identical phase-lock in > applied frequency, then... voila: resonance - often leading > to local superconductivity around the particulate - is > poised to become an "emergent" property of the imposed > coherence. BTW the "effective" electric field of coherent > terahertz light could easily reach a billion watts even with > a fairly broad focal point. > > This is the cross-over point and shared characteristic > between LENR and HTSC (high temperature superconductivity). > Once that 15 micron particulate becomes locally > superconductive the inherent magnetic field will soar to > probably 10-15 tesla, and that is in addition to the already > high internal effective pressure due to overpotential and > high loading. > > Yes, this is too "far-out" and hypothetical for many > researchers to even consider. And I haven't even yet > broached the subject of all that electronium which could be > within the nano-particle itself ;-) So all I can say at > this point is that my hope is that Szpak et al. will at > least have a look into the possibility of terahertz > irradiation... (and I hope they observe the results from an > adjoing bunker...) > > Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Nov 15 17:13:31 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAG1DKeX010913; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 17:13:21 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAG1DISO010884; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 17:13:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 17:13:18 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <006e01c4cb79$38b51790$3301a8c0@ida> Reply-To: "ida" From: "ida" To: References: <001801c4cb64$01d1a0a0$d0bcfea9@jonesb9pacbell> <41993200.FE2F9571@ix.netcom.com> Subject: Re: Excitronics and Szpak Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 09:11:37 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 Disposition-Notification-To: "ida" X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from base64 to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id iAG1DDeX010858 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56454 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Edmund Storms" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 6:47 AM Subject: Re: Excitronics and Szpak > Well Jones, I don't want to debate the possibility of "Excitronics", but > your use of the Szpak paper is not the best evidence. They made two > errors. They claimed the aluminum resulted from transmutation and they > claimed that the deposited morphology resulted from an applied external > electric field. I addressed the first earlier. In the second case, the > applied field could have only had an indirect effect. The electrolyte > is a good conductor. An external electric field can not penetrate a > conductor. At the very least, the ions would follow the lines of > electropotential in such a way as to neutralize the gradient. This > would cause a change in convection currents within the cell and this > would cause fluid to pass across the deposited surface. This change in > fluid flow is the cause of the change in morphology. Simple mechanical > stirring would have produced the same effect. In addition, the type of > crystal growth depends on applied current and the ion concentration. > Several different types of deposit are known and can be easily made by > changing the "normal" conditions. I see nothing in this work that is > anomalous or new. > > Regards, > Ed > > > > Jones Beene wrote: > > > Ref the recent paper: > > > > http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/SzpakSprecursors.pdf > > > > Recently (to what cannot be described as overwhelming > > fanfare), I tried to introduce the concept of "Excitronics." > > This is a concept being tossed around in other fields, which > > the open-minded observer could think of as a possible "key" > > to the type of LENR where BEC-like "condensation" occurs - > > resulting eventually in nuclear reactions. These would most > > likely be the kind of reactions where you get a lot of > > transmutation but little excess energy. A good example may > > be the Szpak paper, which fortunately even comes with some > > *nice images* of excitons (see, I wasn't really pulling your > > leg after all). > > > > When very high current density is captured in a small > > effective circuit, electrons start to act collectively, and > > form what can be called "an electron gas" with strange and > > sometimes emergent properties, since many similar bosons can > > also begin to act as if they "were one" under high pressure > > (substituting for cold temperature), besides just the > > electrons - IOW as if they were a BEC-like "condensate". > > Thus, excitronics is similar to a QM effect but not of the > > low-probability variety, which is normal for QM. > > > > >From the Szpak paper: > > "This is illustrated in a series of SEM photographs taken > > from various runs. In the absence of an electric field, the > > electrode structure consists of globules, 3 - 7 microns in > > diameter, arranged in short columns [looking somewhat like > > grape clusters] Each of the individual globules is an > > aggregate of much smaller, almost spherical units, having a > > diameter in a sub-micron range. This structure is uniform > > throughout the electrode." > > > > Often there is a preferred "size" for the excitronic circuit > > structure, and often that size will coincide with what is > > known as a "particulate" of the metal or alloy through which > > the electrons would normally travel. For this experiment > > the 3-7 micron grape-like structures which you see in Figure > > 2.a)" the reference morphology" would be the Pd exciton > > "particulate," but these excitons are also composed of > > smaller nanoparticles. It is not stated what the ratio is > > but I suspect that the particulate (or phonon) is > > icosohedral - and may depend on the cross-interaction with > > the nested nanoparticles. > > > > Perhaps the secret to why palladium works a matrix doe LENR > > and not say, platinum, could be related to this geometric > > ordering more so than due to any other property of the > > metals. This gives hope that many alloys can be tailored to > > work by adjusting their phonon structure and nested > > nanostructure. > > > > Szpak used a strong electric field to get these results but > > I would bet a dollar to a donut hole that *much better* > > results would have come from using terahertz irradiation > > instead of an electric field - which cannot be very > > discriminating. > > > > This is a very important point. Exctitons are a derivative > > of a precise geometric size and micro-structure, and might > > have become a high temperature superconductor in other > > parameters. If the same field intensity were to have been > > created by a terahertz irradiation source, the results could > > have been much more dramatic, IMHO. > > > > Many of these particulates share a common wavelength - lets > > say the average diameter is >5 microns and the average > > circumference is ~15 microns. Perhaps a third of all the > > "grapes" will be close enough to become excitons. When we > > make this 15 micron wavelength "coherent", such as by > > temperature regulation and by an identical phase-lock in > > applied frequency, then... voila: resonance - often leading > > to local superconductivity around the particulate - is > > poised to become an "emergent" property of the imposed > > coherence. BTW the "effective" electric field of coherent > > terahertz light could easily reach a billion watts even with > > a fairly broad focal point. > > > > This is the cross-over point and shared characteristic > > between LENR and HTSC (high temperature superconductivity). > > Once that 15 micron particulate becomes locally > > superconductive the inherent magnetic field will soar to > > probably 10-15 tesla, and that is in addition to the already > > high internal effective pressure due to overpotential and > > high loading. > > > > Yes, this is too "far-out" and hypothetical for many > > researchers to even consider. And I haven't even yet > > broached the subject of all that electronium which could be > > within the nano-particle itself ;-) So all I can say at > > this point is that my hope is that Szpak et al. will at > > least have a look into the possibility of terahertz > > irradiation... (and I hope they observe the results from an > > adjoing bunker...) > > > > Jones > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Nov 15 17:40:12 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAG1dxDf024411; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 17:39:59 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAG1ducO024363; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 17:39:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 17:39:56 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002201c4cb78$da09dcd0$3301a8c0@ida> Reply-To: "ida" From: "ida" To: , References: Subject: Re: EXTRAORDINARY BIOLOGY, Electronium Catalysts? Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 09:08:58 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 Disposition-Notification-To: "ida" X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from base64 to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id iAG1dmDf024274 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56455 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Keith Nagel" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 6:18 AM Subject: RE: EXTRAORDINARY BIOLOGY, Electronium Catalysts? > Hi Michael. > > SHC is a perennial favorite here. And it sort > of fits with the Kevran work and others we've > discussed. In the case of the chickens, it's > the lack of a specific mineral ( calcium ) and an > abundance of the precursor material ( you'll > have to read the Kevran link I posted but I think > it was mica ) which causes the claimed K->Ca reaction to occur. > > Perhaps people with strange diets would be more > prone to SHC? Better to experiment with chickens; I can > think of worse things than a flaming chicken madly > dashing about the lab but the FCC would fine me > for explaining much further. > > K. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Michael Crosiar [mailto:crosiarcm@yahoo.com] > Sent: Monday, November 15, 2004 4:36 PM > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > Subject: RE: EXTRAORDINARY BIOLOGY, Electronium Catalysts? > > > New poster here... > > In reading all of the speculation here about > electronium and biology, any thoughts on spontaneous > human combustion? My thoughts are that as one ages, > salts tend to accumulate in the body. What if > electronium is also condensed with these salts? Could > they reach some type of "critical mass" resulting in > an extreme release of energy. It would explain the > extremely high temperatures reported... > > Just a thought. > > --- Frederick Sparber wrote: > > > > > Keith wrote: > > > > > > > > It is > > > worth considering that when you calculate the > > amount of energy > > > released by the chicken given K->Ca the poor bird > > would be flaming > > > white hot. > > > > > The way the transmutations in CF cells react sans > > gammas and neutrons and > > slowly give off "heat after death" suggests that the > > synthesized Calcium is > > undergoing > > slow energy/heat output. This is common (years) for > > many of the isotopes. > > Perhaps this is why piles of chicken dung can catch > > fire. > > > > > Is Tyson passing up an ou heat source? :-) > > > > > > OTOH, chickens can mobilize a lot of skeletal > > calcium > > > to make eggs and I wonder if Kevran ever did the > > experiment > > > and dropped his birds to see how high they > > bounce??? > > > > > I'm sure he did. > > > > Frederick > > > K. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Nov 15 17:40:39 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAG1eWDf024989; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 17:40:32 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAG1eTK6024964; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 17:40:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 17:40:29 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002801c4cb78$e162f750$3301a8c0@ida> Reply-To: "ida" From: "ida" To: References: <410-220041111520038510@earthlink.net> <419929D5.9070306@rtpatlanta.com> Subject: Re: EXTRAORDINARY BIOLOGY, Electronium Catalysts? Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 09:09:10 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 Disposition-Notification-To: "ida" X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from base64 to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id iAG1eEDf024685 Resent-Message-ID: <2hH5wD.A.6FG.NqVmBB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56456 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terry Blanton" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 6:12 AM Subject: Re: EXTRAORDINARY BIOLOGY, Electronium Catalysts? > Frederick Sparber wrote: > > >Is Tyson passing up an ou heat source? :-) > > > > Tyson might have missed it; but, the Brits recognized the benefits of > roasting chickens: > > http://www.joe-ks.com/archives_apr2004/Chicken_Nuclear.htm > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Nov 15 17:41:38 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAG1fSDf025516; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 17:41:28 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAG1fQSs025494; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 17:41:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 17:41:26 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <004a01c4cb79$0e71b1f0$3301a8c0@ida> Reply-To: "ida" From: "ida" To: References: <20041115172724.62180.qmail@web54507.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Bernoulli was: Relativity is wrong thought experiment Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 09:10:26 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0047_01C4CBBC.1C784230" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 Disposition-Notification-To: "ida" X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Resent-Message-ID: <4NMHSC.A.SOG.GrVmBB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56457 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0047_01C4CBBC.1C784230 Content-Type: text/plain; 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Mon, 15 Nov 2004 17:43:55 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAG1hseU026677; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 17:43:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 17:43:54 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <00a901c4cb7d$88be7430$3301a8c0@ida> Reply-To: "ida" From: "ida" To: References: <410-220041111520038510@earthlink.net> <419929D5.9070306@rtpatlanta.com> <002801c4cb78$e162f750$3301a8c0@ida> Subject: Re: EXTRAORDINARY BIOLOGY, Electronium Catalysts? Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 09:42:29 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 Disposition-Notification-To: "ida" X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from base64 to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id iAG1hnDf026634 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56459 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "ida" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 9:09 AM Subject: Re: EXTRAORDINARY BIOLOGY, Electronium Catalysts? > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Terry Blanton" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 6:12 AM > Subject: Re: EXTRAORDINARY BIOLOGY, Electronium Catalysts? > > > > Frederick Sparber wrote: > > > > >Is Tyson passing up an ou heat source? :-) > > > > > > > Tyson might have missed it; but, the Brits recognized the benefits of > > roasting chickens: > > > > http://www.joe-ks.com/archives_apr2004/Chicken_Nuclear.htm > > > > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Nov 15 17:44:04 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAG1hseX023718; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 17:43:54 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAG1hrNq023703; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 17:43:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 17:43:53 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <00a301c4cb7d$81084590$3301a8c0@ida> Reply-To: "ida" From: "ida" To: References: <002201c4cb78$da09dcd0$3301a8c0@ida> Subject: Re: EXTRAORDINARY BIOLOGY, Electronium Catalysts? Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 09:42:16 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 Disposition-Notification-To: "ida" X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from base64 to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id iAG1hdeX023480 Resent-Message-ID: <8ElggB.A.RyF.YtVmBB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56458 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "ida" To: ; Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 9:08 AM Subject: Re: EXTRAORDINARY BIOLOGY, Electronium Catalysts? > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Keith Nagel" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 6:18 AM > Subject: RE: EXTRAORDINARY BIOLOGY, Electronium Catalysts? > > > > Hi Michael. > > > > SHC is a perennial favorite here. And it sort > > of fits with the Kevran work and others we've > > discussed. In the case of the chickens, it's > > the lack of a specific mineral ( calcium ) and an > > abundance of the precursor material ( you'll > > have to read the Kevran link I posted but I think > > it was mica ) which causes the claimed K->Ca reaction to occur. > > > > Perhaps people with strange diets would be more > > prone to SHC? Better to experiment with chickens; I can > > think of worse things than a flaming chicken madly > > dashing about the lab but the FCC would fine me > > for explaining much further. > > > > K. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Michael Crosiar [mailto:crosiarcm@yahoo.com] > > Sent: Monday, November 15, 2004 4:36 PM > > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > > Subject: RE: EXTRAORDINARY BIOLOGY, Electronium Catalysts? > > > > > > New poster here... > > > > In reading all of the speculation here about > > electronium and biology, any thoughts on spontaneous > > human combustion? My thoughts are that as one ages, > > salts tend to accumulate in the body. What if > > electronium is also condensed with these salts? Could > > they reach some type of "critical mass" resulting in > > an extreme release of energy. It would explain the > > extremely high temperatures reported... > > > > Just a thought. > > > > --- Frederick Sparber wrote: > > > > > > > > Keith wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > It is > > > > worth considering that when you calculate the > > > amount of energy > > > > released by the chicken given K->Ca the poor bird > > > would be flaming > > > > white hot. > > > > > > > The way the transmutations in CF cells react sans > > > gammas and neutrons and > > > slowly give off "heat after death" suggests that the > > > synthesized Calcium is > > > undergoing > > > slow energy/heat output. This is common (years) for > > > many of the isotopes. > > > Perhaps this is why piles of chicken dung can catch > > > fire. > > > > > > > Is Tyson passing up an ou heat source? :-) > > > > > > > > OTOH, chickens can mobilize a lot of skeletal > > > calcium > > > > to make eggs and I wonder if Kevran ever did the > > > experiment > > > > and dropped his birds to see how high they > > > bounce??? > > > > > > > I'm sure he did. > > > > > > Frederick > > > > K. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Nov 15 18:01:03 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAG20mDf032097; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 18:00:52 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAG20lkq032081; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 18:00:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 18:00:47 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <41995F6B.6010605@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 21:01:15 -0500 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040804 Netscape/7.2 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ida CC: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: EXTRAORDINARY BIOLOGY, Electronium Catalysts? References: <410-220041111520038510@earthlink.net> <419929D5.9070306@rtpatlanta.com> <002801c4cb78$e162f750$3301a8c0@ida> In-Reply-To: <002801c4cb78$e162f750$3301a8c0@ida> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------080601020705030603010602" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56460 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------080601020705030603010602 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit RU having trouble posting, Jordan? ida wrote: >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Terry Blanton" >To: >Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 6:12 AM >Subject: Re: EXTRAORDINARY BIOLOGY, Electronium Catalysts? > > > > >>Frederick Sparber wrote: >> >> >> >>>Is Tyson passing up an ou heat source? :-) >>> >>> >>> >>Tyson might have missed it; but, the Brits recognized the benefits of >>roasting chickens: >> >>http://www.joe-ks.com/archives_apr2004/Chicken_Nuclear.htm >> >> >> >> > > > > --------------080601020705030603010602 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit RU having trouble posting, Jordan?

ida wrote: 

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Terry Blanton" <blantont@rtpatlanta.com>
To: <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 6:12 AM
Subject: Re: EXTRAORDINARY BIOLOGY, Electronium Catalysts?


  
Frederick Sparber wrote:

    
Is Tyson passing up an ou heat source?  :-)

      
Tyson might have missed it; but, the Brits recognized the benefits of 
roasting chickens:

http://www.joe-ks.com/archives_apr2004/Chicken_Nuclear.htm
--------------080601020705030603010602-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Nov 15 18:01:39 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAG21WDf032446; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 18:01:33 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAG21Vum032413; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 18:01:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 18:01:31 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <00ce01c4cb7f$fa789c70$3301a8c0@ida> Reply-To: "ida" From: "ida" To: References: <002201c4cb78$da09dcd0$3301a8c0@ida> <00a301c4cb7d$81084590$3301a8c0@ida> Subject: Re: EXTRAORDINARY BIOLOGY, Electronium Catalysts? Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 09:59:59 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 Disposition-Notification-To: "ida" X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from base64 to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id iAG21ODf032372 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56461 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "ida" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 9:42 AM Subject: Re: EXTRAORDINARY BIOLOGY, Electronium Catalysts? > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "ida" > To: ; > Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 9:08 AM > Subject: Re: EXTRAORDINARY BIOLOGY, Electronium Catalysts? > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Keith Nagel" > > To: > > Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 6:18 AM > > Subject: RE: EXTRAORDINARY BIOLOGY, Electronium Catalysts? > > > > > > > Hi Michael. > > > > > > SHC is a perennial favorite here. And it sort > > > of fits with the Kevran work and others we've > > > discussed. In the case of the chickens, it's > > > the lack of a specific mineral ( calcium ) and an > > > abundance of the precursor material ( you'll > > > have to read the Kevran link I posted but I think > > > it was mica ) which causes the claimed K->Ca reaction to occur. > > > > > > Perhaps people with strange diets would be more > > > prone to SHC? Better to experiment with chickens; I can > > > think of worse things than a flaming chicken madly > > > dashing about the lab but the FCC would fine me > > > for explaining much further. > > > > > > K. > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Michael Crosiar [mailto:crosiarcm@yahoo.com] > > > Sent: Monday, November 15, 2004 4:36 PM > > > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > > > Subject: RE: EXTRAORDINARY BIOLOGY, Electronium Catalysts? > > > > > > > > > New poster here... > > > > > > In reading all of the speculation here about > > > electronium and biology, any thoughts on spontaneous > > > human combustion? My thoughts are that as one ages, > > > salts tend to accumulate in the body. What if > > > electronium is also condensed with these salts? Could > > > they reach some type of "critical mass" resulting in > > > an extreme release of energy. It would explain the > > > extremely high temperatures reported... > > > > > > Just a thought. > > > > > > --- Frederick Sparber wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Keith wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is > > > > > worth considering that when you calculate the > > > > amount of energy > > > > > released by the chicken given K->Ca the poor bird > > > > would be flaming > > > > > white hot. > > > > > > > > > The way the transmutations in CF cells react sans > > > > gammas and neutrons and > > > > slowly give off "heat after death" suggests that the > > > > synthesized Calcium is > > > > undergoing > > > > slow energy/heat output. This is common (years) for > > > > many of the isotopes. > > > > Perhaps this is why piles of chicken dung can catch > > > > fire. > > > > > > > > > Is Tyson passing up an ou heat source? :-) > > > > > > > > > > OTOH, chickens can mobilize a lot of skeletal > > > > calcium > > > > > to make eggs and I wonder if Kevran ever did the > > > > experiment > > > > > and dropped his birds to see how high they > > > > bounce??? > > > > > > > > > I'm sure he did. > > > > > > > > Frederick > > > > > K. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Nov 15 18:03:07 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAG22xDf000674; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 18:02:59 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAG22uAh000643; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 18:02:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 18:02:56 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <00e201c4cb80$208d9aa0$3301a8c0@ida> Reply-To: "ida" From: "ida" To: References: <410-220041111520038510@earthlink.net> <419929D5.9070306@rtpatlanta.com> <002801c4cb78$e162f750$3301a8c0@ida> <00a901c4cb7d$88be7430$3301a8c0@ida> Subject: Re: EXTRAORDINARY BIOLOGY, Electronium Catalysts? Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 10:01:03 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 Disposition-Notification-To: "ida" X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from base64 to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id iAG22fDf000496 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56462 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: get away . ok? ----- Original Message ----- From: "ida" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 9:42 AM Subject: Re: EXTRAORDINARY BIOLOGY, Electronium Catalysts? > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "ida" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 9:09 AM > Subject: Re: EXTRAORDINARY BIOLOGY, Electronium Catalysts? > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Terry Blanton" > > To: > > Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 6:12 AM > > Subject: Re: EXTRAORDINARY BIOLOGY, Electronium Catalysts? > > > > > > > Frederick Sparber wrote: > > > > > > >Is Tyson passing up an ou heat source? :-) > > > > > > > > > > Tyson might have missed it; but, the Brits recognized the benefits of > > > roasting chickens: > > > > > > http://www.joe-ks.com/archives_apr2004/Chicken_Nuclear.htm > > > > > > > > > > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Nov 15 18:42:09 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAG2fwDf014270; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 18:41:58 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAG2fumV014233; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 18:41:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 18:41:56 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <00d801c4cb80$02252e20$3301a8c0@ida> Reply-To: "ida" From: "ida" To: References: <20041115172724.62180.qmail@web54507.mail.yahoo.com> <004a01c4cb79$0e71b1f0$3301a8c0@ida> Subject: Re: Bernoulli was: Relativity is wrong thought experiment Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 10:00:12 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00D5_01C4CBC3.102BE570" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 Disposition-Notification-To: "ida" X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Resent-Message-ID: <-qzanB.A.TeD.0jWmBB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56463 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00D5_01C4CBC3.102BE570 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" 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Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAG2nnDf016924; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 18:49:53 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAG2nlTH016892; Mon, 15 Nov 2004 18:49:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 18:49:47 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: FZNIDARSIC@aol.com Message-ID: <104.5486dae1.2ecac4bf@aol.com> Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 21:49:35 EST Subject: Re: Bernoulli was: Relativity is wrong thought experiment To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_104.5486dae1.2ecac4bf_boundary" X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6808 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56464 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --part1_104.5486dae1.2ecac4bf_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/15/2004 9:43:09 PM Eastern Standard Time, dulei@sobo.cn writes: > Now, one thing on my mind, that few seem to consider is the Bernoulli > effect being considered as physics not just fluid dynamics. > Simply stated, the faster a fluid moves, it's pressure drops. > But how can it's pressure simply drop? It must actually shrink or > experience width contraction? and moving relative to what? > I delete most of this stuff. The Bernoulli pressure reduction is a low energy phenomena. Special relativity is high energy. They are not the even close. For Bernoulli The total energy of the fluid remains constant. total energy = kinetic + potential total = 1/2 mv v + mgh h is 32 feet for water and 2000 feet for air. The rest is math, simplification, and units conversion. That all there is to it. Frank Z --part1_104.5486dae1.2ecac4bf_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 11/15/2004 9:43:= 09 PM Eastern Standard Time, dulei@sobo.cn writes:

Now, one thing on my mind, that= few seem to consider is the Bernoulli
effect being considered as physics not just fluid dynamics.
Simply stated, the faster a fluid moves, it's pressure drops.
But how can it's pressure simply drop? It must actually shrink or
experience width contraction? and moving relative to what?


I delete most of this stuff.  The Bernoulli pressure reduction is a low= energy phenomena.
Special relativity is high energy.  They are not the even close.

For Bernoulli  The total energy of the fluid remains constant.

total energy =3D kinetic + potential

total =3D 1/2 mv v + mgh

h is 32 feet for water and 2000 feet for air.  The rest is math, simpli= fication, and units conversion.  That all there is to it.

Frank Z --part1_104.5486dae1.2ecac4bf_boundary-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Nov 16 00:02:50 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAG82eeX008110; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 00:02:40 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAG82bIZ008090; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 00:02:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 00:02:37 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20041116000333.058b9938@mail.dlsi.net> X-Sender: steven%newenergytimes.com@mail.dlsi.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 00:06:11 -0800 To: steven@newenergytimes.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: NEW ENERGY TIMES Newsletter, Nov. 16, 2004 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_-1005233078==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: <9skyL.A.V-B.dQbmBB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56465 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_-1005233078==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed NEW ENERGY TIMES TM Newsletter, Nov. 16, 2004 -- Issue #7 Your best source for cold fusion news and information. Copyright 2004 New Energy Times (tm) Table of Contents: New Book on Cold Fusion Available Now U.S. Department of Energy 2004 Cold Fusion Review 11th International Conference on Cold Fusion, Marseilles, France Cold Fusion in the News Speakers Available - Experts on the Subject of Cold Fusion Recent Updates to the New Energy Times (tm) Web site Request for Support Administrative New Book on Cold Fusion Available Now The Rebirth of Cold Fusion: Real Science, Real Hope, Real Energy by Steven B. Krivit and Nadine Winocur, Psy.D., Foreword by Sir Arthur C. Clarke The Rebirth of Cold Fusion informs the general public about the science and significance of this new field of energy research. The original promise of cold fusion - nuclear energy in a tabletop device without harmful radiation - has gained increasing credibility with scientists around the world who have now replicated it hundreds of times through a variety of methods. Through investigative reports and firsthand interviews with cold fusion researchers and critics, this book vividly portrays how the social and political environment failed to support scientific objectivity and resulted in the premature rejection of what may, in fact, turn out to be the planet's greatest hope for survival. http://www.newenergytimes.com/ U.S. Department of Energy 2004 Cold Fusion Review Researchers and science journalists from around the world continue to wait for a conclusion from the 2004 Department of Energy Cold Fusion Review. On Oct. 29, Dr. James Decker, Deputy Directory of the DOE'S Office of Science wrote, "We have the reports of 18 reviewers which I received last Wednesday before going on travel. Some of those reports were received later than anticipated. We are carefully sorting through the reviewers' comments. Some time ago, we had a media inquiry that we answered by saying we would release something by the end of the year. I was optimistic in thinking we could get something out this month. I assure you I am working to achieve a release as soon as possible." Decker had also indicated that his current hope for release of a conclusion was during the month of November, but that his priority was to insure that DOE's conclusion was an accurate and fair representation of the various reviewers, rather than to rush to achieve a specific deadline. An interesting twist to the anticipated completion of this review is the Nov. 15, 2004 announcement of the resignation of Energy Secretary Spencer Abraham. According to Reuters, Abraham will stay on until a successor is in place. It was Abraham who took the initiative to receive the interest from the cold fusion community and subsequently task the Office of Science to look into the current status of cold fusion. It has been expected that any announcement from DOE regarding the review would originate from Abraham's office after receiving input from Decker's Office. http://olympics.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=businessNews&storyID=6815097 New Energy Times (tm) is pleased to present a new web page dedicated to the publicly-known information about the 2004 U.S. Department of Energy Cold Fusion Review, as well as the original 1989 review. The page includes an audio recording, slide presentation, 8 full-text papers, and excerpts from The Rebirth of Cold Fusion. The slide presentation includes, among other details, the names of 11 of the 18 reviewers of this years' review. The other reviewers' names remain secret. http://www.newenergytimes.com/doe/doe.htm 11th International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science (ICCF-11), Marseilles-Luminy, France Continuing the 15-year tradition which has sustained the body of accumulated knowledge in the field of cold fusion and low energy nuclear reactions, the ICCF-11 conference took place on Oct. 31 through Nov. 5, 2004. The conference was hosted by Jean Paul Biberian, a professor at the University of Marseilles-Luminy, France, and Vittorio Violante a researcher at ENEA Frascati, Italy. Brian Josephson, 1973 Nobel Prize winner in physics, also gave a talk on "Good and Bad Ways of Doing Science." The conference was held in Marseilles, France. ICCF is the largest scientific conference in the world devoted exclusively to cold fusion/condensed matter nuclear science. The conference is held once every 12 to 14 months, and rotates between North America, the European continent, and Asia. Scientists from 21 nations and 5 continents attended ICCF-11. Detailed reports of the conference will be presented in subsequent newsletters. Abstracts are now on-line. Thank you for your patience. http://www.newenergytimes.com/iccf11/iccf11.htm Cold Fusion in the News IEEE Spectrum: Cold Fusion Back From the Dead, by Justin Mullins http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/WEBONLY/resource/sep04/0904nfus.html "Later this month, the U.S. Department of Energy will receive a report from a panel of experts on the prospects for cold fusion the supposed generation of thermonuclear energy using tabletop apparatus. It's an extraordinary reversal of fortune: more than a few heads turned earlier this year when James Decker, the deputy director of the DOE's Office of Science, announced that he was initiating the review of cold fusion science. Back in November 1989, it had been the department's own investigation that determined the evidence behind cold fusion was unconvincing. Clearly, something important has changed to grab the department's attention now." [Note: "thermonuclear" is misleading, and should simply read "nuclear."] Nashua Telegraph: Science With Attitude, by Dave Brooks http://www.nashuatelegraph.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20040519/COLUMNISTS03/205190305 (In this article, Mr. Brooks discusses the future of the New Energy Foundation and Infinite Energy magazine, which were founded by the recently deceased cold fusion advocate, Eugene Mallove.) Bill Zebuhr, president of Nashua-based Ovation Products, was a friend of Mallove and chairman of the board of directors of the New Energy Foundation, a nonprofit that Mallove founded. The future of that foundation and Infinite Energy magazine are up in the air. "The plan is to keep everything going, best we can. We'll change, but we'll do what we can, Zebuhr said. He admitted, though, that one of the Granite States more unusual institutions is in for hard times. "Gene was unique. You can't replace him," Zebuhr said. Telopolis: The return of Cold Fusion?, by Haiko Lietz http://www.heise.de/tp/english/inhalt/co/18580/1.html After 15 years of uncertainty, Cold Fusion is possibly close to its breakthrough. Many dozens of researchers from all over the world claim to have measured the fusion of nuclei at room temperature. A review of the accumulated evidence by the US Department of Energy is about to be finished. Researchers, who have steadily worked on the subject, wish for recognition that low energy nuclear reactions represent a legitimate scientific field of inquiry. Speakers Available - Experts on the Subject of Cold Fusion Steven B. Krivit - General audiences (Founder of New Energy Times and co-author of The Rebirth of Cold Fusion) Charles G. Beaudette - Academic audiences (Author of Excess Heat and Why Cold Fusion Research Prevailed, 2nd Ed.) David J. Nagel - Government and Military audiences (Key participant in the 2004 DOE Cold Fusion Review) * Please send requests to info@newenergytimes.com Recent Updates to the New Energy Times (tm) Website "Pathological Disbelief:" Lecture by Brian Josephson, Department of Physics, University of Cambridge Lecture given at the Nobel Laureatesmeeting Lindau, June 30th., 2004 http://www.newenergytimes.com/library/2004JosephsonB-LindauLecture.pdf The 2004 U.S. Department of Energy Cold Fusion Review http://www.newenergytimes.com/doe/doe.htm Request for Support The New Energy Times(tm) mission is to make the world a better and healthier place for all beings and future generations, by providing educational and informative news and knowledge about related research and development in novel, benign energy research and technology. The current focus is on the subject of cold fusion. New Energy Times(tm) collects its data directly from researchers and from original scientific papers. We are currently seeking to continue and expand our efforts and outreach. We welcome suggestions for the names and contact information for grant-giving agencies that may be aligned with our mission and be interested in supporting our mission. We would like to express our sincere gratitude to those of you who support our efforts. If you find our Web site or newsletter of value, we would greatly appreciate a donation of any size. Donations are not tax-deductible at this time, but we hope to provide this option in the future. Donations can be made via Paypal: Click here Administrative * Please feel free to forward this newsletter. * If you have received this newsletter from a colleague and you wish to be added to the New Energy Times (tm) mailing list, click here to subscribe. * If you do not wish to receive future communications from New Energy Times, please click here to unsubscribe. Copyright 2004 New Energy Times (tm) Permission is granted to forward this document to others. Publication, in print or electronically, is strictly forbidden. --=====================_-1005233078==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable NEW ENERGY TIMES TM Newsletter, Nov. 16, 2004 -- Issue #7
Your best source for cold fusion news and information.

Copyright 2004 New Energy Times (tm)


Table of Contents:
New Book on Cold Fusion Available Now
U.S. Department of Energy 2004 Cold Fusion Review
11th International Conference on Cold Fusion, Marseilles, France
Cold Fusion in the News
Speakers Available - Experts on the Subject of Cold Fusion
Recent Updates to the New Energy Times (tm) Web site
Request for Support
Administrative


New Book on Cold Fusio= n Available Now
The Rebirth of Cold Fusion: Real Science, Real Hope, Real Energy by Steven B. Krivit and Nadine Winocur, Psy.D., Foreword by Sir Arthur C. Clarke

The Rebirth of Cold Fusion informs the general public about the science and significance of this new field of energy research. The original promise of cold fusion - nuclear energy in a tabletop device without harmful radiation - has gained increasing credibility with scientists around the world who have now replicated it hundreds of times through a variety of methods. Through investigative reports and firsthand interviews with cold fusion researchers and critics, this book vividly portrays how the social and political environment failed to support scientific objectivity and resulted in the premature rejection of what may, in fact, turn out to be the planet's greatest hope for survival.
http://www.newenergytimes.com/<= br>
 
U.S. Department of Ener= gy 2004 Cold Fusion Review
Researchers and science journalists from around the world continue to wait for a conclusion from the 2004 Department of Energy Cold Fusion Review. On Oct. 29, Dr. James Decker, Deputy Directory of the DOE'S Office of Science wrote, "We have the reports of 18 reviewers which I received last Wednesday before going on travel.  Some of those reports were received later than anticipated. We are carefully sorting through the reviewers' comments.  Some time ago, we had a media inquiry that we answered by saying we would release something by the end of the year.  I was optimistic in thinking we could get something out this month.  I assure you I am working to achieve a release as soon as possible."  Decker had also indicated that his current hope for release of a conclusion was during the month of November, but that his priority was to insure that DOE's conclusion was an accurate and fair representation of the various reviewers, rather than to rush to achieve a specific deadline.

An interesting twist to the anticipated completion of  this review is the Nov. 15, 2004 announcement of the resignation of Energy Secretary Spencer Abraham. According to Reuters, Abraham will stay on until a successor is in place. It was Abraham who took the initiative to receive the interest from the cold fusion community and subsequently task the Office of Science to look into the current status of cold fusion. It has been expected that any announcement from DOE regarding the review would originate from Abraham's office after receiving input from Decker's Office.
http://olympics.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=3Dbus= inessNews&storyID=3D6815097

New Energy Times (tm) is pleased to present a new web page dedicated to the publicly-known information about the 2004 U.S. Department of Energy Cold Fusion Review, as well as the original 1989 review.  The page includes an audio recording, slide presentation, 8 full-text papers, and excerpts from The Rebirth of Cold Fusion. The slide presentation includes, among other details, the names of 11 of the 18 reviewers of this years' review. The other reviewers' names remain secret.
http://www.newenergytime= s.com/doe/doe.htm
 

11th International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science
(ICCF-11), Marseilles-Luminy, France
Continuing the 15-year tradition which has sustained the body of accumulated knowledge in the field of cold fusion and low energy nuclear reactions, the ICCF-11 conference took place on Oct. 31 through Nov. 5, 2004. The conference was hosted by Jean Paul Biberian, a professor at the University of Marseilles-Luminy, France, and Vittorio Violante a researcher at ENEA Frascati, Italy. Brian Josephson, 1973 Nobel Prize winner in physics, also gave a talk on "Good and Bad Ways of Doing Science." The conference was held in Marseilles, France.
 
ICCF is the largest scientific conference in the world devoted exclusively to cold fusion/condensed matter nuclear science. The conference is held once every 12 to 14 months, and rotates between North America, the European continent, and Asia.  Scientists from 21 nations and 5 continents attended ICCF-11. Detailed reports of the conference will be presented in subsequent newsletters. Abstracts are now on-line. Thank you for your patience.
http://www.newenergytimes.com/iccf11/iccf11.htm
<= br>
Cold Fusion in the News
IEEE  Spectrum:  Cold Fusion Back From the Dead, by Justin Mullins
= http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/WEBONLY/resource/sep04/0904nfus.html
"Later this month, the U.S. Department of Energy will receive a report from a panel of experts on the prospects for cold fusion the supposed generation of thermonuclear energy using tabletop apparatus. It's an extraordinary reversal of fortune: more than a few heads turned earlier this year when James Decker, the deputy director of the DOE's Office of Science, announced that he was initiating the review of cold fusion science. Back in November 1989, it had been the department's own investigation that determined the evidence behind cold fusion was unconvincing. Clearly, something important has changed to grab the department's attention now."  [Note: "thermonuclear" is misleading, and should simply read "nuclear."]

Nashua Telegraph: Science With Attitude, by Dave Brooks
http://www.nashuatelegraph.com/apps/pbcs.dll/artic= le?AID=3D/20040519/COLUMNISTS03/205190305
(In this article,  Mr. Brooks discusses the future of the New Energy Foundation and Infinite Energy magazine, which were founded by the recently deceased cold fusion advocate, Eugene Mallove.)
Bill Zebuhr, president of Nashua-based Ovation Products, was a friend of Mallove and chairman of the board of directors of the New Energy Foundation, a nonprofit that Mallove founded. The future of that foundation and Infinite Energy magazine are up in the air. "The plan is to keep everything going, best we can. We'll change, but we'll do what we can, Zebuhr said. He admitted, though, that one of the Granite States more unusual institutions is in for hard times. "Gene was unique. You can't replace him," Zebuhr said.
 
Telopolis: The return of Cold Fusion?, by Haiko Lietz
http:/= /www.heise.de/tp/english/inhalt/co/18580/1.html
After 15 years of uncertainty, Cold Fusion is possibly close to its breakthrough. Many dozens of researchers from all over the world claim to have measured the fusion of nuclei at room temperature. A review of the accumulated evidence by the US Department of Energy is about to be finished. Researchers, who have steadily worked on the subject, wish for recognition that low energy nuclear reactions represent a legitimate scientific field of inquiry.


Speakers Availa= ble - Experts on the Subject of Cold Fusion
Steven B. Krivit - General audiences (Founder of New Energy Times and co-author of The Rebirth of Cold Fusion)
Charles G. Beaudette - Academic audiences (Author of Excess Heat and Why Cold Fusion Research Prevailed, 2nd Ed.)
David J. Nagel - Government and Military audiences (Key participant in the 2004 DOE Cold Fusion Review)
* Please send requests to info@newenergytimes.com

Recent Updates t= o the New Energy Times (tm) Website
"Pathological Disbelief:" Lecture by Brian Josephson, Department of Physics, University of Cambridge
Lecture given at the Nobel Laureatesmeeting Lindau, June 30th.,=20 2004
http://www.newenergytimes.com/library/2004JosephsonB-LindauLecture.pdf<= /a>

The 2004 U.S. Department of Energy Cold Fusion Review
http://www.newenergytime= s.com/doe/doe.htm


Request for Supp= ort
The New Energy Times(tm) mission is to make the world a better and healthier place for all beings and future generations, by providing educational and informative news and knowledge about related research and development in novel, benign energy research and technology. The current focus is on the subject of cold fusion. New Energy Times(tm) collects its data directly from researchers and from original scientific papers. We are currently seeking to continue and expand our efforts and outreach. We welcome suggestions for the names and contact information for grant-giving agencies that may be aligned with our mission and be interested in supporting our mission.

We would like to express our sincere gratitude to those of you who support our efforts. If you find our Web site or newsletter of value, we would greatly appreciate a donation of any size. Donations are not tax-deductible at this time, but we hope to provide this option in the future. Donations can be made via Paypal: Click here 

Administrative
* Please feel free to forward this newsletter.
* If you have received this newsletter from a colleague and you wish to be added to the New Energy Times (tm) mailing list, click here to subscribe.
* If you do not wish to receive future communications from New Energy Times, please click here to unsubscribe. 
 
Copyright 2004 New Energy Times (tm)
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--=====================_-1005233078==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Nov 16 00:48:43 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAG8mMeX019627; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 00:48:23 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAG8mJ83019605; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 00:48:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 00:48:19 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner@mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 23:54:48 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: SHC Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56466 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: An Arthur C. Clarke comment on spontaneous human combustion (SHC): "There's one mystery I am asked about more than any other - spontaneous human combustion. Some cases still seem to defy explanation, and leave me with a creepy and very unscientific feeling. If there's anything more to spontaneous human combustion, I simply don't want to know." Some people think SHC is due to "wicking", a process whereby clothing etc. acts like a wick to burn the bodies natural fat. If wicking is actually a valid explanation for spontaneous human combustion, then an experiment should produce similar results using a large ham with bone and skin. How is this for a protocol: 1. Place ham on a roughly 1' by 1' patch of carpet 2. Wrap ham with piece of cloth, e.g. an old shirt 3. Insert birthday cake candle in side of ham through hole in cloth 4. Place all in location safe for fire and smoke, but not in wind 5. Light candle I think the carpet is overkill, however, since SHC has been observed in a bathroom environment (it burned a hole through a linoleum floor) and deep under skin where no wick was present. However, this approach seems to give SHC (now spontaneous HAM combustion) the best chance. If the result is not that bone is reduced to a powder or not that a sweet burning sugar smell results, then the results are negative. Another avenue of research, the underwater spark phenomenon (USP) represents a medium or tool with which to explore for a new source of energy, i.e. an "over unity", "ou", or "excess heat" device. It may represent an environment conducive to events similar to SHC. The USP device does share or can be designed to share within it many characteristics or physical environments similar to previously reported ou phenomena. It is rich in degrees of freedom, operating ranges, and design flexibility. The question arises, is there any realistic basis for hope that a robust over unity energy solution will be found? I say yes. Aside from all the relatively small heat results published and debated, (e.g. P&F, Patterson, Piantelli, Griggs, Claytor, Bass & CG, pseudospark phenomena, etc.) the phenomenon of spontaneous human combustion (SHC) stands out in my mind as justification for that position. There is police and other witness testimony, taken under oath, and other evidence, including still living victims, coroners reports, and photographic evidence. If the SHC phenomenon is real, and I think from the evidence there is a reasonable probability it is, then there exists a truly robust, water environment, heat generation phenomenon driving it. Burning a human body into white ash, including the bones, with only the body as fuel, and in the presence of 60 percent water, involves a source of heat outside the scope of present knowledge. Let's assume for the moment that some SHC reports are genuine, and see what can be determined from that assumption. Through the normal course of events, nature herself will possibly reveal a few things and even more mysteries to unravel. Now the question arises, what is a good strategy for a broad Edisonian search of USP? In some situations, a good strategy is to throw together as many elements as possible into a single test. This strategy has been employed to some extent in aids testing, for example. If you mix the blood for 6 samples together, and then get a negative test for the antibodies, all 6 samples are known to be negative, saving the cost of 5 tests. However, when a positive is obtained, at least 5 more tests must be made, and, unless they are all negative, incurring the cost of an extra test to verify. It is of course possible to do 3 and 3 then, etc. The least expensive testing strategy depends on the expected positive hit rate. Unfortunately we don't have a situation that simple. It may take a combination of factors together at the same moment to get a positive hit. It is also essential not to throw elements into a test that could force other positive combinations of elements in the test to be quenched or suppressed. Unfortunately also is the fact we do not know what elements are incompatible, i.e. which elements and concentrations might quench a SHC type reaction. However, we do know that the elements and concentrations in the human body are not likely to do that, at least in the special circumstances where it actually happened. We also know it is possible for clothing to cause sparks, thus it is reasonable to assume such a SHC reaction may be caused by sparks or be electrically initiated. Based on some case histories, it is also possible the SHC reaction is initiated by focused or prolonged sunlight, and may be partially due to dehydration. So, light may possibly be a trigger. Minimum element concentrations may be an ignition factor. More importantly, we know that at least at some edge of the envelope of the human condition, the elements in the human body, in natural proportions, are *sufficient* to cause the reaction, and that in those cases nothing in the human body was *sufficient to quench* the reaction until it reached the ends of the extremities, leaving only the lower legs, feet, wrists and hands of the victims. The main elements in the human body, 95 % by weight, are O, H, C, and N. The remaining elements include Ca and P, another 3% of body weight, and, in order of decreasing amounts, K, Na, Mg, Fe, Z, Cu, and traces of V, Cr, S, and Se. The fact that SHC usually leaves behind only the ends of the victims' extremities is an indication that the process must be related in some respect to a critical mass. When fuel becomes too sparse, geometrically speaking, the reaction suddenly stops. One hypothesis that roughly fits this scenario is muon catalyzed fusion. If some cosmic event should cause an intense and focused beam of muons to magically fall from the sky at a particular square yard and hit someone, then maybe only the largest most connected regions of the body could prevent escape of large numbers of muons. Or maybe sufficient heat retention is necessary to sustain the reaction. However, muon catalyzed fusion seems an unlikely explanation, if only because the event would have to occur so fast the body would explode. It is likely there are lots of other wild hypotheses containing pre-conditions for SHC that are not reproducible by or relevant to the USP environments. We further know that most humans do not spontaneously combust, even when subjected to extreme radiation, immense heat, flames, and light, and extreme sparking conditions, including high voltage electrocution. There must be a very special set of circumstances that triggers the event. One of the more interesting SHC cases involved a physician whose diet, for long periods, consisted of nothing but shredded wheat and coffee. (I sometimes wonder if maybe he didn't have a banana with that shredded wheat to get his potassium, at least on the fateful day he self immolated.) Maybe one approach to making an electrolyte for USP is to burn meat, coffee and shredded wheat in a crucible, soak the ashes in water, and then filter, or..., maybe not filter. It sure would be advantageous to have a chemical analysis of the SHC ashes vs normal human ashes. One thing that bothers me about all this is the fact you never hear about spontaneously combusting cows! If humans can do it why not cows, sheep, birds, fish, worms, etc.? Now not only must pigs fly, they must self barbecue! One question of interest is whether a solid matrix of some kind is necessary to initiate or sustain a reaction. If so, the only such matrix readily apparent in the human body is the skeleton. Possibly dried bone, or bone meal, or a calcium matrix of some kind, would be of interest to incorporate in a USP test. It is especially notable that the human body does not naturally contain solid metal. We do have dental fixtures, mercury poisoning, aluminum poisoning (darn those pickle makers that put alum in their pickles!), bone plates, etc., but I don't recall hearing about those things being significant. Also, the living SHC victims did not have the SHC initiate in their mouths, etc. So, it seems safe to assume that a metal electrode is not necessary. If not solid metal, though, what? The capacitive electrode cell is an idea, but without internal metal, then how and where to generate the sparks? Also there is the question of whether metal might subdue a SHC type reaction. If not, then metal electrodes are fine. I wonder if some kind of an insulating membrane or very thin sheet of material between two solutions might be a good regime. One possibility to consider as a way for SHC to start is microwave or other radiation. Another possibility is direct induction. None of these seem like very likely initiators. Well, except maybe for people located near the end of a military runway... In addition to the mysteries of the initiation of SHC is the mechanism for sustaining the reaction in a water environment. This does not seem possible to me unless water itself is the fuel. A nuclear reaction like 1H1 + 16O -> 17F is required to sustain this. Also, the reaction must produce further initiating conditions for the next reaction. Beyond that, the reaction must be moderated in some fashion, or else it would be a bang, which it is not. SHC scenes frequently have a sickly sweet smell, like burning sugar. That further indicates to me the heat source is unlikely carbon, not only because of an insufficient quantity, but also because it would be nearly fully converted to CO or CO2. Any reaction that burns a body and leaves a sweet smell must be very weird. The reaction 1H1 + 16O -> 17F results in 17F, which has a half life of 64.5 s. 17F beta decays into 17O with an energy of 2.761 MeV, which should be clearly detectable. It is of interest that 17O is stable, and has a 0.04 percent natural abundance. Well, I have done a fair job here of showing why SHC can not exist. However, there is significant evidence it does. If it does, it offers clues to reaching the energy solution sought. Whether SHC exists or not, SHC consideration provides grist for the idea mill. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Nov 16 00:48:51 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAG8mTeX019689; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 00:48:29 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAG8mQIK019668; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 00:48:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 00:48:26 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner@mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 23:54:58 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: RE: EXTRAORDINARY BIOLOGY, Electronium Catalysts? Resent-Message-ID: <0tudXB.A.NzE.Y7bmBB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56467 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 1:36 PM 11/15/4, Michael Crosiar wrote: >New poster here... > >In reading all of the speculation here about >electronium and biology, any thoughts on spontaneous >human combustion? My thoughts are that as one ages, >salts tend to accumulate in the body. What if >electronium is also condensed with these salts? Could >they reach some type of "critical mass" resulting in >an extreme release of energy. It would explain the >extremely high temperatures reported... > >Just a thought. [snip] I have put together a conglomerate of material I wrote between 1997 and 1999, and just now posted it under the new thread "SHC". Most of this material was posted on vortex more than once in various old discussions here of SHC. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Nov 16 04:25:12 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAGCP6Df032729; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 04:25:06 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAGCP4Ev032700; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 04:25:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 04:25:04 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <003b01c4cbd6$cb273240$6701a8c0@mshome.net> From: "revtec" To: References: Subject: Re: SHC Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 07:21:23 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56468 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Horace Heffner" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 3:54 AM Subject: SHC If wicking is actually a > valid explanation for spontaneous human combustion, then an experiment > should produce similar results using a large ham with bone and skin. This was already done using a whole pig on a TV show on Discovery. The result appeared successful. Jeff Fink From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Nov 16 05:00:20 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAGD04eX024819; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 05:00:08 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAGD02ju024800; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 05:00:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 05:00:02 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <410-2200411216115849250@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Most Likely Place to Find Electronium in Quantity Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 05:58:49 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940071bb27547cbcf1ab64409334459c6f7350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.241 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56469 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII If it Exists?? Electron-Positron Pair Production with subsequent production of Positronium followed by Electron Capture by the Positronium to form Electronium (*e-) should occur in the CANDU reactor vessel. http://www.candu.org/candu_reactors.html "Heavy water used in CANDU reactors is readily available. It can be produced locally, using proven technology. Heavy water lasts beyond the life of the plant and can be re-used " Reactor Diagram: http://www.alumni.ca/~chiuw3w/article%20images/Technology/CANDU.gif Try Spiking Electrolysis Cell with this. Smuggled in Giant Squid for a few Quid? Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

If it Exists??
 
Electron-Positron Pair Production with subsequent production of Positronium followed
by Electron Capture by the Positronium to form Electronium (*e-) should occur in the CANDU reactor
vessel.
 
 
"Heavy water used in CANDU reactors is readily available. It can be produced locally, using proven technology. Heavy water lasts beyond the life of the plant and can be re-used "
 
Reactor Diagram:

http://www.alumni.ca/~chiuw3w/article%20images/Technology/CANDU.gif

Try Spiking Electrolysis Cell with this. Smuggled in Giant Squid for a few Quid?

Frederick

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Nov 16 06:49:42 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAGEnZDf026939; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 06:49:36 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAGEnY91026920; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 06:49:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 06:49:34 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <410-2200411216134821140@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Isomeric Transition & Aneutronic-Gammaless Cold Fusion Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 07:48:21 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9407287839b963f746f009653470c6bc3a3350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.165.40 Resent-Message-ID: <26vgwB.A.kkG.-NhmBB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56470 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII There are many articles found on Googling "Isomeric Transitions" that show how Aneutronic-Gammaless Cold Fusion "Heat" can occur: http://prola.aps.org/abstract/PR/v92/i5/p1257_1 "The K-conversion line of the 1.06-Mev isomeric transition following the electron-capture decay of Bi207 is suggested as a useful energy standard for beta-spectroscopy. While the 50-year half-life and 10 percent conversion coefficient are comparable to Cs137, the 60 percent higher energy, larger percentage K to L momentum separation, and the possibility of making thin and more uniform sources may be advantageous." IOW, there is a "settling time" where the formed nuclei can emit soft x-ray or EUV radiation with a half-life of hours to days. Thus a 24 Mev reaction such as D+D ---> 2 He-4 + 24 Mev could take 0.66 hours to dump it's energy at 10 Kev "average" in the condensed matter environment. Could this be the way that "stellar burning" is actually happening?? In Chickens? :-) Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

There are many articles found on Googling "Isomeric Transitions" that show
how Aneutronic-Gammaless Cold Fusion "Heat" can occur:
 
 
"The K-conversion line of the 1.06-Mev isomeric transition following the electron-capture decay of Bi207 is suggested as a useful energy standard for beta-spectroscopy. While the 50-year half-life and 10 percent conversion coefficient are comparable to Cs137, the 60 percent higher energy, larger percentage K to L momentum separation, and the possibility of making thin and more uniform sources may be advantageous."
 
IOW, there is a "settling time" where the formed nuclei can emit
soft x-ray or EUV radiation with a half-life of hours to days.
 
Thus a 24 Mev reaction such as D+D ---> 2 He-4 + 24 Mev  could take
0.66 hours to dump it's energy at 10 Kev "average" in the
condensed matter environment.
 
Could this be the way that "stellar burning" is actually happening??  In Chickens?  :-)
 
Frederick
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Nov 16 08:06:51 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAGG6ieX004605; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 08:06:44 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAGG6cNP004577; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 08:06:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 08:06:38 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <410-220041121615523890@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Simultaneous Cold Fusion-Cold Fission? Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 09:05:23 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9400a16ede4cb2b29f6e3e31cadbbe20513350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.218 Resent-Message-ID: <8_wC6C.A.dHB.OWimBB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56471 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII The Bouncing Ball Experiment (on a vibrating table) conjures up visions of "almost fusion" that can release energy and/or fusion-fission products. http://www.physics.umd.edu/rgroups/ripe/ph421/bao/talks/chs9608.htm IOW. if QM Tunneling, or a electron or "(*e-) catalyst" momentarily allows close approach of two nuclei Z1 * e- or (*e-) * kq^2/R^2 = 0 <-----> Z1 * Z2 * kq^2/R^2 = Repulsive Force A couple of magnetically opposed "Cow Magnets" in a vertical glass tube, perhaps? More questions than answers. Is SHC (Spontaneous Hen Combustion) a Chicken Supernova, Terry ? Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

The Bouncing Ball Experiment (on a vibrating table) conjures up visions
of "almost fusion" that can release energy and/or fusion-fission products.
 
 
IOW. if QM Tunneling, or a electron or "(*e-) catalyst" momentarily allows close approach of two nuclei
 
Z1 * e- or (*e-) * kq^2/R^2  = 0 <----->  Z1 * Z2 * kq^2/R^2  = Repulsive Force
 
A couple of magnetically opposed "Cow Magnets"  in a vertical glass tube, perhaps?
 
More questions than answers.  Is SHC (Spontaneous Hen Combustion) a Chicken Supernova, Terry ?
 
Frederick

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Nov 16 08:49:44 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAGGndDf014762; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 08:49:39 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAGGnWQv014720; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 08:49:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 08:49:32 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002d01c4cbfb$f45d46c0$d0bcfea9@jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex-l" Subject: SHC and "old times" week Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 08:47:25 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_002A_01C4CBB8.E568FB20" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56472 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002A_01C4CBB8.E568FB20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Since Horace has kept up a detailed remembrance of the SHC threads, = there is one other point which should be made on that subject, in light = of an "enrichment" mechanism which is inherent in any "accumulative = carbon-based system" and becomes important after many (60 ?) years or = so. Have there ever been any cases of young people succumbing to SHC? = Also, it is unfortunate that observers who like tobacco are in total = denial of this modality, which has been brought up before but seems to = be constantly overlooked. At any rate, there are many environmental sources of "mobile" and rather = intense radioactivity, especially radon and tritium, in our environment. = Radon can be accumulated and enriched over extended periods in any kind = of life, and even after decay, its "daughters" are active. Enrichment = may be especially potent in systems dependent on burning fossil fuels - = because Radon is easily "bound" to carbon - like glue almost. In fact = the only way to remove it from contaminated air is using "activated" = carbon filters. Tritium is found in natural gas and is more a cancer = risk than anything else. There is no more "activated" source of a carbon filter to capture radon = and tritium than is found in the human lungs. And the burning of coal is = a prime source of radon getting into a house slowly, as once it is = released by combustion it is much heavier than air and often doesn't = always go out the chimney. Cigarette smoking is another, maybe more = potent vector - as the tobacco leaf is a proven concentrator of radon. = The tobacco company's know this, and have tried to cover it up for = years, and do manage to eliminate it "now" but they did not always do = so, and some of these victims may have been pipe smokes or = "ready-roller". I suspect if you check SHC cases you will find many of = them come from colder climates, and smokers and particularly from older = overweight smokers of low processed tobacco. Even if the victim was not = using coal for heat at the time of the incident, and even if they had = given up smoking, they may have been exposed to 30-40 continuous years = of inside coal combustion and cigarettes in their youth. The wicking effect is not a "cause" of SHC so much as the modality to = keep it going, once an intense initiation reaction has occurred. Of course radon is also suspected by a few of us to be a prime source of = electronium which could catalyze any number of LENR, especially in = proximity to an alpha emission. END or part-one of "old times week" In part 2, which will continue in another posting [with (*e-) as a = subtheme] I would like to bring up the story of the ill-fated Cincinnati = group, whose work never recovered from this damning report [below] in an = 1997 from Ron Brodzinski. I am operating under the premise that the CG thorium remediation cell = probably worked once or a few times; giving them the false hope that it = was 100% reproducible (these inventors were, after all, "faith-oriented" = individuals who thought they had divine guidance), but the remediation = effect was not reproducible and unfortunately - not at the most critical = juncture for them (and I will suggest why). When it failed in this major = demonstration, the backers gave up hope, as if their Lord had abandoned = them. BTW, no one should blame Ron - he was just doing the job that top = scientists of his caliber are paid to do - and probably bent over = backwards to fit it into the PNL agenda. Date: 24-Sep-97 16:06 EDT From: Ronald L Brodzinski Subj: Final Report on Cincinnati Group Experiment [Here is] . . . my final report on the demonstration experiment = performed=20 at PNNL by the Cincinnati Group, and some logical explanation for = the observations reported in their web site and elsewhere. 1) There was NO reduction in the amount of Th-228, Ac-228, Bi-212, Pb-212, or Tl-208 in the cell from before to after the run. 2) NO other gamma-ray emitting radioisotopes were produced during = the run. 3) NO neutrons were emitted during the run. 4) Essentially all of the Th-232 was accounted for after the run, although some was inadvertently wiped out of the cell during disassembly. We were not expecting the thorium to be physically deposited on the cell walls (along with iron and other elements) = and simply wiped out the rust-like material into a bag before we discovered it was largely thorium and were able to quantify it. = Also, significant quantities of thorium remain plated on the zirconium = disc electrode and the zirconium cylinder. The thorium that was in solutions and quantifiable solids amounted to about 60% of the starting material. The remaining 40% are easily accounted for on = the zirconium and in the dust. 5) There was significant electrolytic pitting of the zirconium surfaces, and large amounts of the zirconium and the impurities contained therein were dissolved in the electrolyte and partially replated on other surfaces. For example, the portion of the = zirconium disc above the electrolyte solution contained over 200 ppm titanium while the portion in contact with electrolyte was reduced to 100 = ppm titanium. Most of this remained in solution. 6) The Teflon gaskets and insulators are inadequate for preventing electrolytic dissolution of the stainless steel center rod, plug, = and end plates. Significant quantities of those metals were also dissolved into the electrolyte and partially replated on other surfaces. For example, the stainless steels contain about 0.5% copper, much of which was dissolved and replated on the zirconium. Since copper is frequently purified by electroplating, it is very likely that previously observed copper flakes originated from the copper in the stainless steel. That this copper was also observed = in blank runs supports this conclusion. 7) The isotopic composition of all elements was normal in all = cases. 8) In summary, there was NO reduction of any heavy elements nor any production of new elements in the cell operated at PNNL. The electrolysis process simply boiled some water, dissolved some = metals, and replated some of those metals. End of my report and = discussion! * End of File * More later, Jones ------=_NextPart_000_002A_01C4CBB8.E568FB20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Since Horace has kept up a detailed remembrance of the SHC threads, = there=20 is one other point which should be made on that subject, in light of an=20 "enrichment" mechanism which is inherent in any "accumulative = carbon-based=20 system" and becomes important after many (60 ?) years or so. Have there = ever=20 been any cases of young people succumbing to SHC? Also, it is = unfortunate that=20 observers who like tobacco are in total denial of this modality, which = has been=20 brought up before but seems to be constantly overlooked.
 
At any rate, there are many environmental sources of "mobile" and = rather=20 intense radioactivity, especially radon and tritium, in our = environment.=20 Radon can be accumulated and enriched over extended periods in any kind = of life,=20 and even after decay, its "daughters" are active. Enrichment may be = especially=20 potent in systems dependent on burning fossil fuels - because Radon = is=20 easily "bound" to carbon - like glue almost. In fact the only way to = remove it=20 from contaminated air is using "activated" carbon filters. Tritium is = found in=20 natural gas and is more a cancer risk than anything else.
 
There is no more "activated" source of a carbon filter to capture = radon and=20 tritium than is found in the human lungs. And the burning of coal is a = prime=20 source of radon getting into a house slowly, as once it is released by=20 combustion it is much heavier than air and often doesn't always go out = the=20 chimney. Cigarette smoking is another, maybe more potent vector - as the = tobacco=20 leaf is a proven concentrator of radon. The tobacco company's know this, = and=20 have tried to cover it up for years, and do manage to eliminate it "now" = but=20 they did not always do so, and some of these victims may have been pipe = smokes=20 or "ready-roller". I suspect if you check SHC cases you will find many = of them=20 come from colder climates, and smokers and particularly from = older=20 overweight smokers of low processed tobacco. Even if the victim was not = using=20 coal for heat at the time of the incident, and even if they had given=20 up smoking, they may have been exposed to 30-40 continuous = years of=20 inside coal combustion and cigarettes in their youth.
 
The wicking effect is not a "cause" of SHC so much as the modality = to keep=20 it going, once an intense initiation reaction has occurred.
 
Of course radon is also suspected by a few of us to be a prime = source of=20 electronium which could catalyze any number of LENR, especially in = proximity to=20 an alpha emission.
 
END or part-one of "old times week"
 
 
In part 2, which will continue in another posting [with (*e-) as a=20 subtheme] I would like to bring up the story of the ill-fated Cincinnati = group,=20 whose work never recovered from this damning report [below] in an 1997 = from Ron=20 Brodzinski.
 
I am operating under the premise that the CG thorium = remediation cell=20 probably worked once or a few times; giving them the false hope that it = was 100%=20 reproducible (these inventors were, after all, "faith-oriented" = individuals who=20 thought they had divine guidance), but the remediation effect was = not=20 reproducible and unfortunately - not at the most critical juncture for = them (and=20 I will suggest why). When it failed in this major demonstration, the = backers=20 gave up hope, as if their Lord had abandoned them. BTW, no one should = blame Ron=20 - he was just doing the job that top scientists of his caliber are paid = to do -=20 and probably bent over backwards to fit it into the PNL agenda.
 
 
Date:  24-Sep-97 16:06 EDT
From:  Ronald L Brodzinski = <rl_brodzinski@ccmail.pnl.gov= >
Subj: =20 Final Report on Cincinnati Group Experiment
 
     [Here is] . . . my final report on the=20 demonstration experiment performed
     at PNNL = by the=20 Cincinnati Group, and some logical explanation for=20 the
     observations reported in their web site = and=20 elsewhere.
 
     1) There was NO reduction in the amount of = Th-228,=20 Ac-228, Bi-212,
     Pb-212, or Tl-208 in the = cell from=20 before to after the run.
 
     2) NO other gamma-ray emitting = radioisotopes were=20 produced during the
     run.
 
     3) NO neutrons were emitted during the = run.
 
     4) Essentially all of the Th-232 was = accounted for=20 after the run,
     although some was = inadvertently wiped=20 out of the cell during
     disassembly.  We = were=20 not expecting the thorium to be physically
     = deposited=20 on the cell walls (along with iron and other elements)=20 and
     simply wiped out the rust-like material = into a=20 bag before we
     discovered it was largely = thorium and=20 were able to quantify it.  Also,
     = significant=20 quantities of thorium remain plated on the zirconium=20 disc
     electrode and the zirconium = cylinder.  The=20 thorium that was in
     solutions and = quantifiable=20 solids amounted to about 60% of the
     starting = material.  The remaining 40% are easily accounted for on=20 the
     zirconium and in the dust.
 
     5) There was significant electrolytic = pitting of=20 the zirconium
     surfaces, and large amounts of = the=20 zirconium and the impurities
     contained = therein were=20 dissolved in the electrolyte and partially
     = replated=20 on other surfaces.  For example, the portion of the=20 zirconium
     disc above the electrolyte = solution=20 contained over 200 ppm titanium
     while the = portion in=20 contact with electrolyte was reduced to 100 = ppm
    =20 titanium.  Most of this remained in solution.
 
     6) The Teflon gaskets and insulators are=20 inadequate for preventing
     electrolytic = dissolution=20 of the stainless steel center rod, plug, and
     = end=20 plates.  Significant quantities of those metals were=20 also
     dissolved into the electrolyte and = partially=20 replated on other
     surfaces.  For = example, the=20 stainless steels contain about 0.5%
     copper, = much of=20 which was dissolved and replated on the = zirconium.
    =20 Since copper is frequently purified by electroplating, it is=20 very
     likely that previously observed copper = flakes=20 originated from the
     copper in the stainless=20 steel.  That this copper was also observed = in
    =20 blank runs supports this conclusion.
 
     7) The isotopic composition of all = elements was=20 normal in all cases.
 
     8) In summary, there was NO reduction of = any heavy=20 elements nor any
     production of new elements = in the=20 cell operated at PNNL.  The
     = electrolysis=20 process simply boiled some water, dissolved some=20 metals,
     and replated some of those = metals.  End=20 of my report and discussion!
 
* End of File *
 
More later,
 
Jones
------=_NextPart_000_002A_01C4CBB8.E568FB20-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Nov 16 08:53:43 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAGGrZDf017362; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 08:53:35 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAGGrXQm017336; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 08:53:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 08:53:33 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner@mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 08:00:10 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: SHC Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56473 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 7:21 AM 11/16/4, revtec wrote: >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Horace Heffner" >To: >Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 3:54 AM >Subject: SHC > If wicking is actually a >> valid explanation for spontaneous human combustion, then an experiment >> should produce similar results using a large ham with bone and skin. > >This was already done using a whole pig on a TV show on Discovery. The >result appeared successful. By what criterea? Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Nov 16 09:37:06 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAGHawDf004120; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 09:36:58 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAGHaves004107; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 09:36:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 09:36:57 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <419A3ADA.40807@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 12:37:30 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: SHC References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <6juaL.A.DAB.5qjmBB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56474 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: >At 7:21 AM 11/16/4, revtec wrote: > > >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Horace Heffner" >>To: >>Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 3:54 AM >>Subject: SHC >> If wicking is actually a >> >> >>>valid explanation for spontaneous human combustion, then an experiment >>>should produce similar results using a large ham with bone and skin. >>> >>> >>This was already done using a whole pig on a TV show on Discovery. The >>result appeared successful. >> >> > >By what criterea? > By Joe Nickell's criteria, PSYCOP (CSICOP) S(k)eptical Enquirer. :-) http://media.science.discovery.com/video/skepticalinquirer/skepticalinquirer.html It's the last video clip. I don't recommend bothering to download it. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Nov 16 09:55:27 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAGHtGeX018058; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 09:55:21 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAGHseVw017903; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 09:54:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 09:54:40 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001301c4cc05$5223d7c0$6701a8c0@mshome.net> From: "revtec" To: References: Subject: Re: SHC Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 12:54:26 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56475 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: These are the observations I recall: 1. The pig was on a large metal tray to retain the juices in the immediate area and to prevent the fire from spreading across the floor of the room. 2. There was some fabric placed over the pig to supply wicking. 3. An accelerant was used to kick things off. 4. The fire was never intense enough to spread to the ceiling. 5. Some torso bones did burn to ash. 6. The extremeties were largely intact at the conclusion of the fire. Jeff ----- Original Message ----- From: "Horace Heffner" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 12:00 PM Subject: Re: SHC > At 7:21 AM 11/16/4, revtec wrote: > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "Horace Heffner" > >To: > >Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 3:54 AM > >Subject: SHC > > If wicking is actually a > >> valid explanation for spontaneous human combustion, then an experiment > >> should produce similar results using a large ham with bone and skin. > > > >This was already done using a whole pig on a TV show on Discovery. The > >result appeared successful. > > By what criterea? > > Regards, > > Horace Heffner > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Nov 16 10:11:54 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAGIBoDf015702; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 10:11:50 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAGIBiMT015605; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 10:11:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 10:11:44 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner@mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 09:18:19 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Excitronics and Szpak Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56476 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 3:47 PM 11/15/4, Edmund Storms wrote: >Well Jones, I don't want to debate the possibility of "Excitronics", but >your use of the Szpak paper is not the best evidence. They made two >errors. They claimed the aluminum resulted from transmutation and they >claimed that the deposited morphology resulted from an applied external >electric field. I addressed the first earlier. In the second case, the >applied field could have only had an indirect effect. The electrolyte >is a good conductor. An external electric field can not penetrate a >conductor. Though the above statement might be found in many text books, it seems to me to be untrue on two counts. First, the charge balance inside the conductor is changed by the imposed field E. If the field were not actually present, and merely balanced by the internal changes in the conductor, then this charge imbalance would not be maintained. This is one arena where the "field superposition" concept seems to cloud what is really happening inside the conductor. Second, the surface effects on the conductor can be significant and increase with the width of the conductor in the imposed field. That is to say that the field intensity in any remaining conductor-free gaps is increased by the presence of the subject conductor. Conduction band electron concentration is reduced on the negative side and increased toward the positive side. It seems to me logical that a change in electron concentration in the conductor could have chemical and morpological surface effects. >At the very least, the ions would follow the lines of >electropotential in such a way as to neutralize the gradient. An electrolyte is part dielectric. It neutrolizes field gradients in part by polar molecule rotation. In the electrolyte a strong electrostatic field tends to orient the H3O+ ions in a polar manner. I would think a fixed orientation for some of the H3O+ ions would reduce the electrolytes ability to conduct by its primary method, that being H3O+ molecule rotation followed by proton tunneling. THis then should increase the amount of conduction by other ions and such an increase might affect dendrite formation rates and morphology. It might also change convection currents, especially in the vicinity of dendrite tips, which, as you say below, could cause a change in morphology. There is another field effect in dielectrics. That is nucleus displacement. The positive nucleus is displaced toward the negative external field direction. In other words, the center of charge is displaced in order to neutralize the imposed field. In some texts the nature of this charge displacement is treated as if atomic electrons act like they exist at their center of charge. The nucleus is "displaced from this center of charge" by an imposed electrostatic field. From this assumption one can calculate the nuclear displacement given a field E. This is of course a great oversimplification. The nucleus has a much greater degree of freedom than this model indicates. That is because the nucleus is inside numerous spherical shells of electron quantum probability densities which have no net effect on the nucleus. A charge inside a spherical "Faraday cage" conductor experiences no net force upon that charge. The hydrogen nucleii in atoms in the interface, with its horrifically strong field intensities, especially in the presence of an alternating field, can experience dynamics which allow the nucleii to obtain closer distances than 0.5 the hydrogen atom radius. Yes, the Schrodinger equations will show thinning of the electron sheilding and thus increase repulsion and the resurrection of the Coulomb barrier. However, protons in the H3O+ ion have more time for briefly imposed fields to accelerate them and they can range a larger distance than would be thought by a simple center of charge model. Ditto for electrode nucleii and adsorbed hydrogen. If a cathode surface has an increased electron concentration, due to an externally applied field E, and that field E has principly the effect in the interface of increasing the orientation of molecules by polarity, it seems to me important to theoretically evaluate the resulting change in electron screening capacity at the interface. An increased electron concentration should increase the electron screening capacity. Nuclear fusion probability should increase with increased electron concentration. >This >would cause a change in convection currents within the cell and this >would cause fluid to pass across the deposited surface. This change in >fluid flow is the cause of the change in morphology. Simple mechanical >stirring would have produced the same effect. A "stirring" control is certainly called for. >In addition, the type of >crystal growth depends on applied current and the ion concentration. >Several different types of deposit are known and can be easily made by >changing the "normal" conditions. I see nothing in this work that is >anomalous or new. More work is needed, but there may be something there? Perhaps the work should not be quickly and summarily dismissed. There is food for thought here. One is prompted to think further about the possible effect or implications of fast alternating fields applied via capacitive interface (which avoids part of energy cost of the potential drop at the electrode interface) or via laser stimulation. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Nov 16 10:54:31 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAGIs6eX008951; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 10:54:06 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAGIs5wP008935; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 10:54:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 10:54:05 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner@mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 10:00:41 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: SHC and "old times" week Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56477 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 8:47 AM 11/16/4, Jones Beene wrote: >...BTW, no one should blame Ron - he was just doing the job that top >scientists of his caliber are paid to do - and probably bent over >backwards to fit it into the PNL agenda. > > >Date: 24-Sep-97 16:06 EDT >From: Ronald L Brodzinski >Subj: Final Report on Cincinnati Group Experiment > > [Here is] . . . my final report on the demonstration experiment performed > at PNNL by the Cincinnati Group, and some logical explanation for the > observations reported in their web site and elsewhere. Wow, speaking of "old times", it seems to me Ronald L Brodzinski was the guy who got into some difficulties due to posting (true)information about the massive amount of radiation released to the atmosphere by burning coal. He (I think) posted some amazing statistics on sci.physics.fusion. The annual amount of radioactivity relased by power plants, which included uranium, radon, and other daughter products, was (if I remember correctly) vastly more than escaped all the nuclear reactors in the world (possibly excepting Chernobyl which was more recent?) Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Nov 16 10:54:39 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAGIsDeX009015; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 10:54:17 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAGIs8EK008974; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 10:54:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 10:54:08 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner@mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 10:00:44 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: SHC Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56478 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:54 PM 11/16/4, revtec wrote: >These are the observations I recall: > >1. The pig was on a large metal tray to retain the juices in the immediate >area and to prevent the fire from spreading across the floor of the room. >2. There was some fabric placed over the pig to supply wicking. >3. An accelerant was used to kick things off. While this is not so important I am still for some reason to yell CHEAT!!! >4. The fire was never intense enough to spread to the ceiling. >5. Some torso bones did burn to ash. "Some torso bones" is a very long way from the *complete torso* being converted to ash. It is imaginable that heat can be supplied to reduce some bone to ash, but neither the flesh nor the bone itself can supply the energy to burn itself completely to a white ash. Even crematoria designed for the purpose do not do this. It is my (second hadn) understanding that skeletal remains from crematoria are typically pulverised by a ball bearing grinder before placing in the urn. >6. The extremeties were largely intact at the conclusion of the fire. > >Jeff Another factor involved here is time. BTW, I seem to recall having seen the subject TV show. I am left with the impression it took a long time for the pig to burn, even given the use of the accelerant. Various cases of SHC I think have been shown to have occurred in a brief time span, less than 2 hours. I suppose I should have been not so cheap and actually bought the book on SHC so I would know something of what I speak. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Nov 16 12:39:03 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAGKcteX009254; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 12:38:56 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAGKcrK1009235; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 12:38:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 12:38:53 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <419A579D.ACEAF031@ix.netcom.com> Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 12:40:14 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Excitronics and Szpak References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56479 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: > At 3:47 PM 11/15/4, Edmund Storms wrote: > >Well Jones, I don't want to debate the possibility of "Excitronics", but > >your use of the Szpak paper is not the best evidence. They made two > >errors. They claimed the aluminum resulted from transmutation and they > >claimed that the deposited morphology resulted from an applied external > >electric field. I addressed the first earlier. In the second case, the > >applied field could have only had an indirect effect. The electrolyte > >is a good conductor. An external electric field can not penetrate a > >conductor. > > Though the above statement might be found in many text books, it seems to > me to be untrue on two counts. First, the charge balance inside the > conductor is changed by the imposed field E. If the field were not > actually present, and merely balanced by the internal changes in the > conductor, then this charge imbalance would not be maintained. This is one > arena where the "field superposition" concept seems to cloud what is really > happening inside the conductor. Second, the surface effects on the > conductor can be significant and increase with the width of the conductor > in the imposed field. That is to say that the field intensity in any > remaining conductor-free gaps is increased by the presence of the subject > conductor. Conduction band electron concentration is reduced on the > negative side and increased toward the positive side. It seems to me > logical that a change in electron concentration in the conductor could have > chemical and morpological surface effects. I detect a bit of confusion here. We need, for the sake of discussion, to separate the effects produced by changes in electron concentration within a electrolyte from changes in concentration outside of the electrolyte, i.e., on the container surface. Szpak has changed the concentration of electrons on the surface so as to impose a change in electric field on the electrons and ions within the electrolyte. As with all conductors, free electrons and ions will move in such a way as to neutralize any change in the local field. This being the case, the positive ions will tend to move toward the surface having the greater negative charge. As a result, the impact of this applied charge will be reduced so that ions within the electrolyte will no longer experience its presence. However, as the positive ions move, they carry liquid with them so that convection within the cell is altered. No change in electron concentration occurs within the electrolyte. A person might observe a somewhat higher concentration of positive ions next to the negative charged wall, but this effect would be very local. > > > >At the very least, the ions would follow the lines of > >electropotential in such a way as to neutralize the gradient. > > An electrolyte is part dielectric. It neutrolizes field gradients in part > by polar molecule rotation. In the electrolyte a strong electrostatic > field tends to orient the H3O+ ions in a polar manner. I would think a > fixed orientation for some of the H3O+ ions would reduce the electrolytes > ability to conduct by its primary method, that being H3O+ molecule rotation > followed by proton tunneling. THis then should increase the amount of > conduction by other ions and such an increase might affect dendrite > formation rates and morphology. It might also change convection currents, > especially in the vicinity of dendrite tips, which, as you say below, could > cause a change in morphology. I suggest the mechanism you suggest would only occur in a very pure electrolyte, not one that has, as in the Szpak case, a high concentration of Li+ ions. > > > There is another field effect in dielectrics. That is nucleus > displacement. The positive nucleus is displaced toward the negative > external field direction. In other words, the center of charge is > displaced in order to neutralize the imposed field. In some texts the > nature of this charge displacement is treated as if atomic electrons act > like they exist at their center of charge. The nucleus is "displaced from > this center of charge" by an imposed electrostatic field. From this > assumption one can calculate the nuclear displacement given a field E. > This is of course a great oversimplification. The nucleus has a much > greater degree of freedom than this model indicates. That is because the > nucleus is inside numerous spherical shells of electron quantum probability > densities which have no net effect on the nucleus. A charge inside a > spherical "Faraday cage" conductor experiences no net force upon that > charge. The hydrogen nucleii in atoms in the interface, with its > horrifically strong field intensities, especially in the presence of an > alternating field, can experience dynamics which allow the nucleii to > obtain closer distances than 0.5 the hydrogen atom radius. Yes, the > Schrodinger equations will show thinning of the electron sheilding and thus > increase repulsion and the resurrection of the Coulomb barrier. However, > protons in the H3O+ ion have more time for briefly imposed fields to > accelerate them and they can range a larger distance than would be thought > by a simple center of charge model. Ditto for electrode nucleii and > adsorbed hydrogen. If a cathode surface has an increased electron > concentration, due to an externally applied field E, and that field E has > principly the effect in the interface of increasing the orientation of > molecules by polarity, it seems to me important to theoretically evaluate > the resulting change in electron screening capacity at the interface. An > increased electron concentration should increase the electron screening > capacity. Nuclear fusion probability should increase with increased > electron concentration. Because the nucleus can move freely as an ion within a liquid, an applied field will move the whole ion and not cause displacement in the manner you describe. The model is more like a pump that moves the liquid body. > > > >This > >would cause a change in convection currents within the cell and this > >would cause fluid to pass across the deposited surface. This change in > >fluid flow is the cause of the change in morphology. Simple mechanical > >stirring would have produced the same effect. > > A "stirring" control is certainly called for. > > >In addition, the type of > >crystal growth depends on applied current and the ion concentration. > >Several different types of deposit are known and can be easily made by > >changing the "normal" conditions. I see nothing in this work that is > >anomalous or new. > > More work is needed, but there may be something there? Perhaps the work > should not be quickly and summarily dismissed. There is food for thought > here. One is prompted to think further about the possible effect or > implications of fast alternating fields applied via capacitive interface > (which avoids part of energy cost of the potential drop at the electrode > interface) or via laser stimulation. I'm surprised that the Szpak work is getting so much attention. The claims for an applied voltage effect are not supported by the required controls and better transmutation claims are found in other work. Regards, Ed > > > Regards, > > Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Nov 16 13:00:04 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAGKxwDf004588; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 12:59:58 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAGKxpFK004530; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 12:59:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 12:59:51 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <410-220041121619583630@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Excitronics and Szpak Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 13:58:36 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9407eb4e16331b2c8562acb65d74645b48e350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.147 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56480 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Going by Figure 1 on page 4 of Szpak's paper: http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/SzpakSprecursors.pdf I can't see how 1,000 to 3,000 volts per cm (across the cell) could result in any effect on the electrolyte. Review past physics 101: http://www.udayton.edu/~physics/gkm/p207ch26.htm Ctotal = C1 + C2 + C3 C2 is the electrolyte in the middle. :-) Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

Going by Figure 1 on page 4 of Szpak's paper:
 
 
I can't see how 1,000 to 3,000 volts per cm (across the cell) could result in any
effect on the electrolyte.
 
Review past physics 101:
 
 

Ctotal = C1 + C2 + C3

C2  is the electrolyte in the middle.   :-)

Frederick

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Nov 16 13:04:28 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAGL4MDf005927; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 13:04:23 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAGL4Lmq005904; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 13:04:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 13:04:21 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <410-22004112162037800@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Excitronics and Szpak Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 14:03:07 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940cd398331be6cec7767e632890881898c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.147 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56481 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Oops. slight correction :-) Going by Figure 1 on page 4 of Szpak's paper: http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/SzpakSprecursors.pdf I can't see how 1,000 to 3,000 volts per cm (across the cell) could result in any effect on the electrolyte. Review past physics 101: http://www.udayton.edu/~physics/gkm/p207ch26.htm 1/Ctotal = 1/C1 +1/C2 +1/C3 C2 is the electrolyte in the middle. Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

Oops. slight correction :-)
 
Going by Figure 1 on page 4 of Szpak's paper:
 
 
I can't see how 1,000 to 3,000 volts per cm (across the cell) could result in any
effect on the electrolyte.
 
Review past physics 101:
 
 

1/Ctotal = 1/C1 +1/C2 +1/C3

C2  is the electrolyte in the middle.

Frederick

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Nov 16 13:15:40 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAGLFUeX019619; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 13:15:31 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAGLFTaB019595; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 13:15:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 13:15:29 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <008901c4cc21$17a6a200$d0bcfea9@jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <419A579D.ACEAF031@ix.netcom.com> Subject: Re: Excitronics and Szpak Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 13:13:16 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56482 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ed Storms writes, > I'm surprised that the Szpak work is getting so much attention. The claims > for an applied voltage effect are not supported by the required controls and > better transmutation claims are found in other work. This is true. We should be focusing on the strongest claims. I would like to ask Ed if he has the time, and anyone else who has followed this closely, to list the *best* transmutation claim he has seen in the literature or in his own work ("best" being the most likely to sway the opinion of fence-straddling skeptics and/or the DoE officialdom). To start the ball rolling, I think the most relevant in terms of an air-tight case are those of Dr. Passels of EPRI. Here is an *excellent* analysis of some his work: http://blake.montclair.edu/~kowalskil/cf/126passell.html Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Nov 16 13:36:59 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAGLarDf013835; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 13:36:53 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAGLaqS9013815; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 13:36:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 13:36:52 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <410-2200411216203538700@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Excitronics and Szpak Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 14:35:38 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94086e142584607c30ab59a58b44ed4bbba350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.159.103 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56483 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: > > This is true. We should be focusing on the strongest claims. > > I would like to ask Ed if he has the time, and anyone else > who has followed this closely, to list the *best* > transmutation claim he has seen in the literature or in his > own work ("best" being the most likely to sway the opinion > of fence-straddling skeptics and/or the DoE officialdom). > > To start the ball rolling, I think the most relevant in > terms of an air-tight case are those of Dr. Passels of EPRI. > Here is an *excellent* analysis of some his work: > http://blake.montclair.edu/~kowalskil/cf/126passell.html > This one seems rational, think George Miley (as well as Mike McKubre) is behind it: http://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/ViolanteVsearchforn.pdf > Jones > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Nov 16 14:37:13 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAGMb7Df030478; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 14:37:08 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAGMb6A4030467; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 14:37:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 14:37:06 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner@mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 13:43:40 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Excitronics and Szpak Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56484 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:40 PM 11/16/4, Edmund Storms wrote: >Horace Heffner wrote: > >> At 3:47 PM 11/15/4, Edmund Storms wrote: >> >Well Jones, I don't want to debate the possibility of "Excitronics", but >> >your use of the Szpak paper is not the best evidence. They made two >> >errors. They claimed the aluminum resulted from transmutation and they >> >claimed that the deposited morphology resulted from an applied external >> >electric field. I addressed the first earlier. In the second case, the >> >applied field could have only had an indirect effect. The electrolyte >> >is a good conductor. An external electric field can not penetrate a >> >conductor. >> >> Though the above statement might be found in many text books, it seems to >> me to be untrue on two counts. First, the charge balance inside the >> conductor is changed by the imposed field E. If the field were not >> actually present, and merely balanced by the internal changes in the >> conductor, then this charge imbalance would not be maintained. This is one >> arena where the "field superposition" concept seems to cloud what is really >> happening inside the conductor. Second, the surface effects on the >> conductor can be significant and increase with the width of the conductor >> in the imposed field. That is to say that the field intensity in any >> remaining conductor-free gaps is increased by the presence of the subject >> conductor. Conduction band electron concentration is reduced on the >> negative side and increased toward the positive side. It seems to me >> logical that a change in electron concentration in the conductor could have >> chemical and morpological surface effects. > >I detect a bit of confusion here. We need, for the sake of discussion, to >separate the effects produced by changes in electron concentration within a >electrolyte from changes in concentration outside of the electrolyte, i.e., on >the container surface. *Nothing* in my above paragraph references the electrolyte. >Szpak has changed the concentration of electrons on >the surface so as to impose a change in electric field on the electrons and >ions within the electrolyte. As with all conductors, free electrons and ions >will move in such a way as to neutralize any change in the local field. This >being the case, the positive ions will tend to move toward the surface having >the greater negative charge. As a result, the impact of this applied charge >will be reduced so that ions within the electrolyte will no longer experience >its presence. However, as the positive ions move, they carry liquid with them >so that convection within the cell is altered. The above sentence appears to be nonsense. The *current* movement to neutralize a sudden steady state field E, i.e. a large but one-time delta E, be the current ion flow or otherwise, is negligible. There should be *no* fluid flow change to accomodate a steady state field - unless of course that steady state field significantly affects the reactions at the interface layer. >No change in electron >concentration occurs within the electrolyte. I did not in any way imply there was a change in electron concentration in the electrolyte - other than *at the interface*. In the interface itself electron concentration can be increased by an increase in electrode concentration due to the fact electrons can freely tunnel the interface itslef. The surface free electron quantum wavefunction extends beyond the interface itself. > A person might observe a >somewhat higher concentration of positive ions next to the negative charged >wall, but this effect would be very local. Well the effect on dendrite formation *is* in fact very local, occuring at the dendrite tip. Isn't this in part in agreement with Szpak's results? > >> >> >> >At the very least, the ions would follow the lines of >> >electropotential in such a way as to neutralize the gradient. >> >> An electrolyte is part dielectric. It neutrolizes field gradients in part >> by polar molecule rotation. In the electrolyte a strong electrostatic >> field tends to orient the H3O+ ions in a polar manner. I would think a >> fixed orientation for some of the H3O+ ions would reduce the electrolytes >> ability to conduct by its primary method, that being H3O+ molecule rotation >> followed by proton tunneling. THis then should increase the amount of >> conduction by other ions and such an increase might affect dendrite >> formation rates and morphology. It might also change convection currents, >> especially in the vicinity of dendrite tips, which, as you say below, could >> cause a change in morphology. > >I suggest the mechanism you suggest would only occur in a very pure >electrolyte, not one that has, as in the Szpak case, a high concentration of >Li+ ions. The above depends in part on the field gradient. In the vicinity of a dendrite tip, the field gradient is very high and polarization will take a larger role in field neutralization. This in effect presents a barrier to Li+ ions, which are cocooned in layers of polarized water molecules. [snip] >Because the nucleus can move freely as an ion within a liquid, an applied >field will move the whole ion and not cause displacement in the manner you >describe. The model is more like a pump that moves the liquid body. You are describing ion motion in the electrolyte. This has nothing whatsoever to do with the action at the interface, the subject of my comments. At the interface there is a barrier to the motion you suggest. The field strength at the interface is over 10^6 v/m. This is enough to cause significant nuclear dislocation, significant changes in the nucleus wavefunction. > >I'm surprised that the Szpak work is getting so much attention. The claims >for an applied voltage effect are not supported by the required controls and >better transmutation claims are found in other work. Well, I do have to agree with that. At least in the sense of claims proven sufficiently for scientific publication. There is an indication of potential results, though, so throwing out everything for lack of iron clad proof makes a free energy lunatic fringer like myself a bit uncomfortable. 8^) Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Nov 16 14:46:35 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAGMkSDf000548; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 14:46:28 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAGMkRO4000523; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 14:46:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 14:46:27 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20041116145027.059bcbf0@mail.dlsi.net> X-Sender: steven%newenergytimes.com@mail.dlsi.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 14:50:38 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: NEW ENERGY TIMES Newsletter, Nov. 16, 2004 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_-952169656==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56485 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_-952169656==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed NEW ENERGY TIMES TM Newsletter, Nov. 16, 2004 -- Issue #7 Your best source for cold fusion news and information. Copyright 2004 New Energy Times (tm) Table of Contents: New Book on Cold Fusion Available Now U.S. Department of Energy 2004 Cold Fusion Review 11th International Conference on Cold Fusion, Marseilles, France Cold Fusion in the News Speakers Available - Experts on the Subject of Cold Fusion Recent Updates to the New Energy Times (tm) Web site Request for Support Administrative New Book on Cold Fusion Available Now The Rebirth of Cold Fusion: Real Science, Real Hope, Real Energy by Steven B. Krivit and Nadine Winocur, Psy.D., Foreword by Sir Arthur C. Clarke The Rebirth of Cold Fusion informs the general public about the science and significance of this new field of energy research. The original promise of cold fusion - nuclear energy in a tabletop device without harmful radiation - has gained increasing credibility with scientists around the world who have now replicated it hundreds of times through a variety of methods. Through investigative reports and firsthand interviews with cold fusion researchers and critics, this book vividly portrays how the social and political environment failed to support scientific objectivity and resulted in the premature rejection of what may, in fact, turn out to be the planet's greatest hope for survival. http://www.newenergytimes.com/ U.S. Department of Energy 2004 Cold Fusion Review Researchers and science journalists from around the world continue to wait for a conclusion from the 2004 Department of Energy Cold Fusion Review. On Oct. 29, Dr. James Decker, Deputy Directory of the DOE'S Office of Science wrote, "We have the reports of 18 reviewers which I received last Wednesday before going on travel. Some of those reports were received later than anticipated. We are carefully sorting through the reviewers' comments. Some time ago, we had a media inquiry that we answered by saying we would release something by the end of the year. I was optimistic in thinking we could get something out this month. I assure you I am working to achieve a release as soon as possible." Decker had also indicated that his current hope for release of a conclusion was during the month of November, but that his priority was to insure that DOE's conclusion was an accurate and fair representation of the various reviewers, rather than to rush to achieve a specific deadline. An interesting twist to the anticipated completion of this review is the Nov. 15, 2004 announcement of the resignation of Energy Secretary Spencer Abraham. According to Reuters, Abraham will stay on until a successor is in place. It was Abraham who took the initiative to receive the interest from the cold fusion community and subsequently task the Office of Science to look into the current status of cold fusion. It has been expected that any announcement from DOE regarding the review would originate from Abraham's office after receiving input from Decker's Office. http://olympics.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=businessNews&storyID=6815097 New Energy Times (tm) is pleased to present a new web page dedicated to the publicly-known information about the 2004 U.S. Department of Energy Cold Fusion Review, as well as the original 1989 review. The page includes an audio recording, notes from a slide presentation, 8 full-text papers, and excerpts from The Rebirth of Cold Fusion. The slide presentation includes, among other details, the names of 11 of the 18 reviewers of this years' review. The other reviewers' names remain secret. http://www.newenergytimes.com/doe/doe.htm 11th International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science (ICCF-11), Marseilles-Luminy, France Continuing the 15-year tradition which has sustained the body of accumulated knowledge in the field of cold fusion and low energy nuclear reactions, the ICCF-11 conference took place on Oct. 31 through Nov. 5, 2004. The conference was hosted by Jean Paul Biberian, a professor at the University of Marseilles-Luminy, France, and Vittorio Violante a researcher at ENEA Frascati, Italy. Brian Josephson, 1973 Nobel Prize winner in physics, also gave a talk on "Good and Bad Ways of Doing Science." The conference was held in Marseilles, France. ICCF is the largest scientific conference in the world devoted exclusively to cold fusion/condensed matter nuclear science. The conference is held once every 12 to 14 months, and rotates between North America, the European continent, and Asia. Scientists from 21 nations and 5 continents attended ICCF-11. Detailed reports of the conference will be presented in subsequent newsletters. Abstracts are now on-line. Thank you for your patience. http://www.newenergytimes.com/iccf11/iccf11.htm Cold Fusion in the News IEEE Spectrum: Cold Fusion Back From the Dead, by Justin Mullins http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/WEBONLY/resource/sep04/0904nfus.html "Later this month, the U.S. Department of Energy will receive a report from a panel of experts on the prospects for cold fusion the supposed generation of thermonuclear energy using tabletop apparatus. It's an extraordinary reversal of fortune: more than a few heads turned earlier this year when James Decker, the deputy director of the DOE's Office of Science, announced that he was initiating the review of cold fusion science. Back in November 1989, it had been the department's own investigation that determined the evidence behind cold fusion was unconvincing. Clearly, something important has changed to grab the department's attention now." [Note: "thermonuclear" is misleading, and should simply read "nuclear."] Nashua Telegraph: Science With Attitude, by Dave Brooks http://www.nashuatelegraph.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20040519/COLUMNISTS03/205190305 (In this article, Mr. Brooks discusses the future of the New Energy Foundation and Infinite Energy magazine, which were founded by the recently deceased cold fusion advocate, Eugene Mallove.) Bill Zebuhr, president of Nashua-based Ovation Products, was a friend of Mallove and chairman of the board of directors of the New Energy Foundation, a nonprofit that Mallove founded. The future of that foundation and Infinite Energy magazine are up in the air. "The plan is to keep everything going, best we can. We'll change, but we'll do what we can, Zebuhr said. He admitted, though, that one of the Granite States more unusual institutions is in for hard times. "Gene was unique. You can't replace him," Zebuhr said. Telopolis: The return of Cold Fusion?, by Haiko Lietz http://www.heise.de/tp/english/inhalt/co/18580/1.html After 15 years of uncertainty, Cold Fusion is possibly close to its breakthrough. Many dozens of researchers from all over the world claim to have measured the fusion of nuclei at room temperature. A review of the accumulated evidence by the US Department of Energy is about to be finished. Researchers, who have steadily worked on the subject, wish for recognition that low energy nuclear reactions represent a legitimate scientific field of inquiry. Speakers Available - Experts on the Subject of Cold Fusion Steven B. Krivit - General audiences (Founder of New Energy Times and co-author of The Rebirth of Cold Fusion) Charles G. Beaudette - Academic audiences (Author of Excess Heat and Why Cold Fusion Research Prevailed, 2nd Ed.) David J. Nagel - Government and Military audiences (Key participant in the 2004 DOE Cold Fusion Review) * Please send requests to info@newenergytimes.com Recent Updates to the New Energy Times (tm) Website "Pathological Disbelief:" Lecture by Brian Josephson, Department of Physics, University of Cambridge Lecture given at the Nobel Laureatesmeeting Lindau, June 30th., 2004 http://www.newenergytimes.com/library/2004JosephsonB-LindauLecture.pdf The 2004 U.S. Department of Energy Cold Fusion Review http://www.newenergytimes.com/doe/doe.htm Request for Support The New Energy Times(tm) mission is to make the world a better and healthier place for all beings and future generations, by providing educational and informative news and knowledge about related research and development in novel, benign energy research and technology. The current focus is on the subject of cold fusion. New Energy Times(tm) collects its data directly from researchers and from original scientific papers. We are currently seeking to continue and expand our efforts and outreach. We welcome suggestions for the names and contact information for grant-giving agencies that may be aligned with our mission and be interested in supporting our mission. We would like to express our sincere gratitude to those of you who support our efforts. If you find our Web site or newsletter of value, we would greatly appreciate a donation of any size. Donations are not tax-deductible at this time, but we hope to provide this option in the future. Donations can be made via Paypal: Click here Administrative * Please feel free to forward this newsletter. * If you have received this newsletter from a colleague and you wish to be added to the New Energy Times (tm) mailing list, click here to subscribe. * If you do not wish to receive future communications from New Energy Times, please click here to unsubscribe. Copyright 2004 New Energy Times (tm) Permission is granted to forward this document to others. Publication, in print or electronically, is strictly forbidden. --=====================_-952169656==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable NEW ENERGY TIMES TM Newsletter, Nov. 16, 2004 -- Issue #7
Your best source for cold fusion news and information.

Copyright 2004 New Energy Times (tm)


Table of Contents:
New Book on Cold Fusion Available Now
U.S. Department of Energy 2004 Cold Fusion Review
11th International Conference on Cold Fusion, Marseilles, France
Cold Fusion in the News
Speakers Available - Experts on the Subject of Cold Fusion
Recent Updates to the New Energy Times (tm) Web site
Request for Support
Administrative


New Book on Cold Fusio= n Available Now
The Rebirth of Cold Fusion: Real Science, Real Hope, Real Energy by Steven B. Krivit and Nadine Winocur, Psy.D., Foreword by Sir Arthur C. Clarke

The Rebirth of Cold Fusion informs the general public about the science and significance of this new field of energy research. The original promise of cold fusion - nuclear energy in a tabletop device without harmful radiation - has gained increasing credibility with scientists around the world who have now replicated it hundreds of times through a variety of methods. Through investigative reports and firsthand interviews with cold fusion researchers and critics, this book vividly portrays how the social and political environment failed to support scientific objectivity and resulted in the premature rejection of what may, in fact, turn out to be the planet's greatest hope for survival.
http://www.newenergytimes.com/<= br>
 
U.S. Department of Ener= gy 2004 Cold Fusion Review
Researchers and science journalists from around the world continue to wait for a conclusion from the 2004 Department of Energy Cold Fusion Review. On Oct. 29, Dr. James Decker, Deputy Directory of the DOE'S Office of Science wrote, "We have the reports of 18 reviewers which I received last Wednesday before going on travel.  Some of those reports were received later than anticipated. We are carefully sorting through the reviewers' comments.  Some time ago, we had a media inquiry that we answered by saying we would release something by the end of the year.  I was optimistic in thinking we could get something out this month.  I assure you I am working to achieve a release as soon as possible."  Decker had also indicated that his current hope for release of a conclusion was during the month of November, but that his priority was to insure that DOE's conclusion was an accurate and fair representation of the various reviewers, rather than to rush to achieve a specific deadline.

An interesting twist to the anticipated completion of  this review is the Nov. 15, 2004 announcement of the resignation of Energy Secretary Spencer Abraham. According to Reuters, Abraham will stay on until a successor is in place. It was Abraham who took the initiative to receive the interest from the cold fusion community and subsequently task the Office of Science to look into the current status of cold fusion. It has been expected that any announcement from DOE regarding the review would originate from Abraham's office after receiving input from Decker's Office.
http://olympics.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=3Dbus= inessNews&storyID=3D6815097

New Energy Times (tm) is pleased to present a new web page dedicated to the publicly-known information about the 2004 U.S. Department of Energy Cold Fusion Review, as well as the original 1989 review.  The page includes an audio recording, notes from a slide presentation, 8 full-text papers, and excerpts from The Rebirth of Cold Fusion. The slide presentation includes, among other details, the names of 11 of the 18 reviewers of this years' review. The other reviewers' names remain secret.
http://www.newenergytime= s.com/doe/doe.htm
 

11th International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science
(ICCF-11), Marseilles-Luminy, France
Continuing the 15-year tradition which has sustained the body of accumulated knowledge in the field of cold fusion and low energy nuclear reactions, the ICCF-11 conference took place on Oct. 31 through Nov. 5, 2004. The conference was hosted by Jean Paul Biberian, a professor at the University of Marseilles-Luminy, France, and Vittorio Violante a researcher at ENEA Frascati, Italy. Brian Josephson, 1973 Nobel Prize winner in physics, also gave a talk on "Good and Bad Ways of Doing Science." The conference was held in Marseilles, France.
 
ICCF is the largest scientific conference in the world devoted exclusively to cold fusion/condensed matter nuclear science. The conference is held once every 12 to 14 months, and rotates between North America, the European continent, and Asia.  Scientists from 21 nations and 5 continents attended ICCF-11. Detailed reports of the conference will be presented in subsequent newsletters. Abstracts are now on-line. Thank you for your patience.
http://www.newenergytimes.com/iccf11/iccf11.htm
<= br>
Cold Fusion in the News
IEEE  Spectrum:  Cold Fusion Back From the Dead, by Justin Mullins
= http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/WEBONLY/resource/sep04/0904nfus.html
"Later this month, the U.S. Department of Energy will receive a report from a panel of experts on the prospects for cold fusion the supposed generation of thermonuclear energy using tabletop apparatus. It's an extraordinary reversal of fortune: more than a few heads turned earlier this year when James Decker, the deputy director of the DOE's Office of Science, announced that he was initiating the review of cold fusion science. Back in November 1989, it had been the department's own investigation that determined the evidence behind cold fusion was unconvincing. Clearly, something important has changed to grab the department's attention now."  [Note: "thermonuclear" is misleading, and should simply read "nuclear."]

Nashua Telegraph: Science With Attitude, by Dave Brooks
http://www.nashuatelegraph.com/apps/pbcs.dll/artic= le?AID=3D/20040519/COLUMNISTS03/205190305
(In this article,  Mr. Brooks discusses the future of the New Energy Foundation and Infinite Energy magazine, which were founded by the recently deceased cold fusion advocate, Eugene Mallove.)
Bill Zebuhr, president of Nashua-based Ovation Products, was a friend of Mallove and chairman of the board of directors of the New Energy Foundation, a nonprofit that Mallove founded. The future of that foundation and Infinite Energy magazine are up in the air. "The plan is to keep everything going, best we can. We'll change, but we'll do what we can, Zebuhr said. He admitted, though, that one of the Granite States more unusual institutions is in for hard times. "Gene was unique. You can't replace him," Zebuhr said.
 
Telopolis: The return of Cold Fusion?, by Haiko Lietz
http:/= /www.heise.de/tp/english/inhalt/co/18580/1.html
After 15 years of uncertainty, Cold Fusion is possibly close to its breakthrough. Many dozens of researchers from all over the world claim to have measured the fusion of nuclei at room temperature. A review of the accumulated evidence by the US Department of Energy is about to be finished. Researchers, who have steadily worked on the subject, wish for recognition that low energy nuclear reactions represent a legitimate scientific field of inquiry.


Speakers Availa= ble - Experts on the Subject of Cold Fusion
Steven B. Krivit - General audiences (Founder of New Energy Times and co-author of The Rebirth of Cold Fusion)
Charles G. Beaudette - Academic audiences (Author of Excess Heat and Why Cold Fusion Research Prevailed, 2nd Ed.)
David J. Nagel - Government and Military audiences (Key participant in the 2004 DOE Cold Fusion Review)
* Please send requests to info@newenergytimes.com

Recent Updates t= o the New Energy Times (tm) Website
"Pathological Disbelief:" Lecture by Brian Josephson, Department of Physics, University of Cambridge
Lecture given at the Nobel Laureatesmeeting Lindau, June 30th.,=20 2004
http://www.newenergytimes.com/library/2004JosephsonB-LindauLecture.pdf<= /a>

The 2004 U.S. Department of Energy Cold Fusion Review
http://www.newenergytime= s.com/doe/doe.htm


Request for Supp= ort
The New Energy Times(tm) mission is to make the world a better and healthier place for all beings and future generations, by providing educational and informative news and knowledge about related research and development in novel, benign energy research and technology. The current focus is on the subject of cold fusion. New Energy Times(tm) collects its data directly from researchers and from original scientific papers. We are currently seeking to continue and expand our efforts and outreach. We welcome suggestions for the names and contact information for grant-giving agencies that may be aligned with our mission and be interested in supporting our mission.

We would like to express our sincere gratitude to those of you who support our efforts. If you find our Web site or newsletter of value, we would greatly appreciate a donation of any size. Donations are not tax-deductible at this time, but we hope to provide this option in the future. Donations can be made via Paypal: Click here 

Administrative
* Please feel free to forward this newsletter.
* If you have received this newsletter from a colleague and you wish to be added to the New Energy Times (tm) mailing list, click here to subscribe.
* If you do not wish to receive future communications from New Energy Times, please click here to unsubscribe. 
 
Copyright 2004 New Energy Times (tm)
Permission is granted to forward this document to others.
Publication, in print or electronically, is strictly forbidden.=20

--=====================_-952169656==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Nov 16 14:48:31 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAGMmMeX013671; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 14:48:22 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAGMmKRI013649; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 14:48:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 14:48:20 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner@mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 13:54:57 -0900 To: "vortex-l" From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Excitronics and Szpak Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56486 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 1:58 PM 11/16/4, Frederick Sparber wrote: >Going by Figure 1 on page 4 of Szpak's paper: > >http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/SzpakSprecursors.pdf > >I can't see how 1,000 to 3,000 volts per cm (across the cell) could result >in any >effect on the electrolyte. It appears you fail to consider the fact that, assuming the electrolyte and electrodes neutralize the imposed field, a change in charge carrying species occurs at the interface, primarily concentrated at the dendrite tips. Keep in mind that a 2 volt potential across the cell results in 10^6 V/m drop at the interface, and more at dendrite tips. BTW, Fred, your email is set to send you a copy in addition to the one to vortex, which is then rejected by your spam filter. Your ISP's filter sends back a message with HTML to send a request to your for access to your mail server. Since I don't have HTML capabilities on my email PC, I can't respond. I wrote a lengthy response to a private email from you a while back but hit the same little problem. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Nov 16 15:42:19 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAGNgDDf015263; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 15:42:13 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAGNgBDS015247; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 15:42:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 15:42:11 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <419A828D.30007074@ix.netcom.com> Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 14:37:39 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Excitronics and Szpak References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56487 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: > At 12:40 PM 11/16/4, Edmund Storms wrote: > >Horace Heffner wrote: > > > >> At 3:47 PM 11/15/4, Edmund Storms wrote: > >> >Well Jones, I don't want to debate the possibility of "Excitronics", but > >> >your use of the Szpak paper is not the best evidence. They made two > >> >errors. They claimed the aluminum resulted from transmutation and they > >> >claimed that the deposited morphology resulted from an applied external > >> >electric field. I addressed the first earlier. In the second case, the > >> >applied field could have only had an indirect effect. The electrolyte > >> >is a good conductor. An external electric field can not penetrate a > >> >conductor. > >> > >> Though the above statement might be found in many text books, it seems to > >> me to be untrue on two counts. First, the charge balance inside the > >> conductor is changed by the imposed field E. If the field were not > >> actually present, and merely balanced by the internal changes in the > >> conductor, then this charge imbalance would not be maintained. This is one > >> arena where the "field superposition" concept seems to cloud what is really > >> happening inside the conductor. Second, the surface effects on the > >> conductor can be significant and increase with the width of the conductor > >> in the imposed field. That is to say that the field intensity in any > >> remaining conductor-free gaps is increased by the presence of the subject > >> conductor. Conduction band electron concentration is reduced on the > >> negative side and increased toward the positive side. It seems to me > >> logical that a change in electron concentration in the conductor could have > >> chemical and morpological surface effects. > > > >I detect a bit of confusion here. We need, for the sake of discussion, to > >separate the effects produced by changes in electron concentration within a > >electrolyte from changes in concentration outside of the electrolyte, i.e., on > >the container surface. > > *Nothing* in my above paragraph references the electrolyte. Now I'm confused. I thought we were discussing the Szpak paper. He used an electrolyte and applied an electric field to it. Any discussion of the proposed effect of this field must involve the electrolyte. A general discussion of a conductor is not relevant unless it can be applied to the electrolyte, which I though you were doing. > > > >Szpak has changed the concentration of electrons on > >the surface so as to impose a change in electric field on the electrons and > >ions within the electrolyte. As with all conductors, free electrons and ions > >will move in such a way as to neutralize any change in the local field. This > >being the case, the positive ions will tend to move toward the surface having > >the greater negative charge. As a result, the impact of this applied charge > >will be reduced so that ions within the electrolyte will no longer experience > >its presence. However, as the positive ions move, they carry liquid with them > >so that convection within the cell is altered. > > The above sentence appears to be nonsense. The *current* movement to > neutralize a sudden steady state field E, i.e. a large but one-time delta > E, be the current ion flow or otherwise, is negligible. There should be > *no* fluid flow change to accomodate a steady state field - unless of > course that steady state field significantly affects the reactions at the > interface layer. A fixed field has an effect because the ions are moving in the electrolyte, because of bubble action, and these ions are essentially a current that is caused to pass through a fixed field. This field changes the paths these ions take, hence changes the convection currents. At the same time, the paths tend to neutralize this field, as I said before. You are viewing this as a stationary system when it is actually a dynamic system. > > > >No change in electron > >concentration occurs within the electrolyte. > > I did not in any way imply there was a change in electron concentration in > the electrolyte - other than *at the interface*. In the interface itself > electron concentration can be increased by an increase in electrode > concentration due to the fact electrons can freely tunnel the interface > itslef. The surface free electron quantum wavefunction extends beyond the > interface itself. Where is the interface? In the experiment, we have a glass container containing a conductive liquid. The field is applied between two external plates. The cathode, where the effects are proposed to occur, are parallel to the field. I do not know where in this assembly an interface can occur. > > > > A person might observe a > >somewhat higher concentration of positive ions next to the negative charged > >wall, but this effect would be very local. > > Well the effect on dendrite formation *is* in fact very local, occuring at > the dendrite tip. Isn't this in part in agreement with Szpak's results? By local, I mean local to the liquid immediately adjacent to where the external electrode is located. This local region is far away from the growing tip, which I claim knows nothing about the applied field. On the other hand, the liquid currents that flow across this surface are changed and provide depositing ions to a different part of the growing tip. This has nothing to do with a local voltage. > > > > > >> > >> > >> >At the very least, the ions would follow the lines of > >> >electropotential in such a way as to neutralize the gradient. > >> > >> An electrolyte is part dielectric. It neutrolizes field gradients in part > >> by polar molecule rotation. In the electrolyte a strong electrostatic > >> field tends to orient the H3O+ ions in a polar manner. I would think a > >> fixed orientation for some of the H3O+ ions would reduce the electrolytes > >> ability to conduct by its primary method, that being H3O+ molecule rotation > >> followed by proton tunneling. THis then should increase the amount of > >> conduction by other ions and such an increase might affect dendrite > >> formation rates and morphology. It might also change convection currents, > >> especially in the vicinity of dendrite tips, which, as you say below, could > >> cause a change in morphology. > > > >I suggest the mechanism you suggest would only occur in a very pure > >electrolyte, not one that has, as in the Szpak case, a high concentration of > >Li+ ions. > > The above depends in part on the field gradient. In the vicinity of a > dendrite tip, the field gradient is very high and polarization will take a > larger role in field neutralization. This in effect presents a barrier to > Li+ ions, which are cocooned in layers of polarized water molecules. The deposit grows by deposition of Pd ions. When the convection currents change, these arrive preferentially from a different direction, hence change the direction of growth. > > > [snip] > >Because the nucleus can move freely as an ion within a liquid, an applied > >field will move the whole ion and not cause displacement in the manner you > >describe. The model is more like a pump that moves the liquid body. > > You are describing ion motion in the electrolyte. This has nothing > whatsoever to do with the action at the interface, the subject of my > comments. At the interface there is a barrier to the motion you suggest. > The field strength at the interface is over 10^6 v/m. This is enough to > cause significant nuclear dislocation, significant changes in the nucleus > wavefunction. Here I think we are talking about two different phenomenon. Szpak had two claims. Transmutation products were produced and the shape of the deposit was changed by applying an external voltage. They can not claim that the external voltage influenced the transmutation reaction, which are in doubt, because such transmutations are reported in the absence of an external applied voltage. > > > > > >I'm surprised that the Szpak work is getting so much attention. The claims > >for an applied voltage effect are not supported by the required controls and > >better transmutation claims are found in other work. > > Well, I do have to agree with that. At least in the sense of claims proven > sufficiently for scientific publication. There is an indication of > potential results, though, so throwing out everything for lack of iron > clad proof makes a free energy lunatic fringer like myself a bit > uncomfortable. 8^) I don't want iron clad proof. However, I think a few obvious checks should be applied in the same spirit that normal science requires obvious possibilities be eliminated before a new idea is accepted. Regards, Ed > > > Regards, > > Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Nov 16 18:19:33 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAH2JSDf026649; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 18:19:28 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAH2I0FI026082; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 18:18:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 18:18:00 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 20:17:50 -0600 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: hyperdimensional physics Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1161; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: <0UY59C.A.aXG.XTrmBB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56488 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I was listening to Richard Hoagland of www.enterprisemission.com being interviewed on C to C AM the other night. He made some measurements of the transit of Venus, with the Moon I assume, from the Coral Gables mansion a few weeks ago. He was using a system which uses an Acrutron based timer, which uses a tuning fork's oscillations as the basis of the time calculations. During the transit, the frequency of the tuning fork's vibrations changed. According to the hyperdimensional physics paradigm, during a transit of a celestial body, the tuning fork's frequency of vibration is supposed to increase, which it did. He has also made some measurements of the transit of Jupiter with the Moon. According to G R, gravity, and the force produced by mass exposed to acceleration or deceleration are interchangeable, according to the hyperdimensional paradigm, they aren't. He and his associates have wired Coral Gables, so that they can make measurements from their office in New Mexico. Since their visit to Coral Gables, the clock in his laptop has been affected. He attributes this to the carrying case. I would assume that the clock in the laptop is controlled by a quartz crystal. He promised to relate the Coral Gables' date to secret societies in the next hour, but I fell asleep. There are more details about this on the Enterprise Mission website. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Nov 16 18:19:34 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAH2JUDf026668; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 18:19:30 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAH2I2bo026115; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 18:18:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 18:18:02 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 20:17:50 -0600 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Singularity Technologies Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1161; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: <9Nm2jD.A._XG.aTrmBB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56489 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Robin Von Sparendonk posted the URL www.singtech.com . I spent several hours reading the site. His plan is to pass deuterium atoms through a standing wave boson generator. This gives all the atoms the same rate of speed, since they have the same mass, this gives them the same De Borglie wave length. This allows for quantum tunneling to occur leading to fusion. The website says that in addition to helium 3, lithium and beryllium are formed and deposited on the cathode. There is a drawing of a proposed 18 KW generator. The technology is claimed to be scalable. The proposed system is detailed in a patent pending. I contacted the website's author. I told him that I was an investigative reporter. Since this technology would make any other proposed energy machine that I've seen obsolete, I'd like to determine if there is a theoretical basis for the machine working. I sent an email which was ignored. Then I called the number listed on the website, I asked the man who answered if this was Singtech, and he hung up. When I called back I got the answering machine. I left a message that I would be sending another email. This email was ignored too. This behavior makes me very suspicious about the website's claims. Anybody want to build a version of the Brown Nuclear Battery that uses plutonium? From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Nov 16 22:46:02 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAH6jreX002293; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 22:45:53 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAH6jgZp002222; Tue, 16 Nov 2004 22:45:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 22:45:42 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner@mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 21:52:18 -0900 To: "vortex-l" From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Excitronics and Szpak Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56490 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Having reread the Szpak paper at: I can see that some assumptions I made during my first reading are the basis of the confusion on both my part and others regarding what I wrote. Understanding these assumptions requires a review of Fig. 1 of Szpak's paper. Fig. 1 below is a rough ascii representation of Fig. 1 on page 4 of Szpak's paper. (+) (-) Electrolysis potential I I -----I------------------I----- | I I | | I I | Key: | I I | | I I | I - Electrolysis power wire | I I | # - Platinum screen anode | I I | g - Gold foil c | I I | c s - Piezo substrate c | I I | c p - Deposited Pd c | I############# I | c -| - Clear plastic cell wall c | I | c c - Copper foil HV electrodes c | I | c c | ppppppppppppppp I | c c | ggggggggggggggggggggI | c c | gssssssssssssssssssgI | c c | ggg gggI | c c | | c c ------------------------------ c c c c c c c c Foil 1 c Foil 2 Fig. 1 - Diagram of Szpak's Cell Note that ascii figure viewing requires use of a fixed font, like Courier, and Microsoft Outlook users may need to select "fixed" in the "textsize" submenu of the "view" menu. The first assumption I made was that Foil 1 on the left was probably charged positively, and Foil 2 on the right charged negatively. Assuming the opposite really doesn't change much regarding the conclusions, however. This assumption is thus not critical, but is maybe useful for understanding my points with clarity. If any description is present in the article as to which polarity was used, I missed it. The second assumption I made is that, given the first assumption, I would expect the extreme fusion activity to be located toward the left side of the cathode. After rereading, I see that the heavy transmutations at least, were apparently *not* to the left (positive foil) side of the cathode as I assumed. The article states on page 12: "Quantitatively the newly fused elements are found to be randomly distributed over the entire electrode surface area indicating highly localized reaction sites." It is unfortunate that no cell photo is given so as to see the relative distances involved, however. Fig. 2 shows the conceptual basis for my remarks. It shows the Szpak's cell with all but the copper foils and Pd layer removed. It also shows expected electrostatic field intensity lines. c c c . . . c Key: c . . . . c c . . . c p - Pd layer c . . . . c c - Foil c . . . . ppppppppppppppp. . . .c . - Electrostatic field E c . . . c c . . . . . c c . . . . c c . . . c c Foil 1 . c Foil 2 Fig. 2 - Diagram of foil plates and Pd only Assuming Foil 1 is positive, the left side of the cathode surface p...p should contain excess free electrons, while the right side should have a deficit. The field lines enter the cathode assembly (which includes the Au) at right angles to the surface, including a portion of the surface exposed toward the anode screen. Similarly, the electrolysis current should flow not only on the p...p surface shown in Szpak's idealized Fig.1, but also somewhat around the ends of the cathode as well. It is the areas at the left end of the cathode, specifically the interface layers (which Szpak calls "interphase" layers, and the adjacent electrode surface, which should experience the additive effects to which I alluded. If the fusion effects are indeed uniform across the cathode, and the cathode-anode separation is close, and the cathode is not mostly located to the left (say, on the left end of a long lateral power supply wire) then my comments were based entirely on false assumptions. This is probably the case, but more data or descriptions or photographs would be useful to make that determination for absolute sure. In any event, the assumptions I made rightly or wrongly may well be useful for the design of a follow-up experiment using a much larger external field. Sorry for the confusion! Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Nov 17 02:14:41 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAHAEbDf025738; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 02:14:37 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAHAEW5V025701; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 02:14:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 02:14:32 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20041117101413.006a4750@pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk@pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 10:14:13 +0000 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Off topic Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56491 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >After all if Britain is full of these sleeping terrorist cells as Blair >would like to have us believe and a small Nissan can derail a train then why >don't the sleeper cells wake up and go down the fudging car auctions. After >all they don't even need to stay in the car, just park it up and run. 6 of >those in a single day and they would have to suspend the national rail >service for months and spend billions building a wall around it. The roads >would be grid-locked and the economy would be brought to its knees. So, I >suspect they are not actually here and never were. There are just a lot of >mouthy Muslim mullahs and chanting headscarfed youths that like to talk the >talk but fear to walk the walk. The government is using fear for its own >controlling agenda. > >"Its not a question of if but when". OK then Tony, WHEN? > >G > I agree, you don't need to be Brain of Britain to work that one out, do you. Trouble is, if you wrote that as a letter to the papers they wouldn't publish it cos they would feel you would be calling the towelheads chicken and daring them to have a go. Grimer From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Nov 17 07:16:08 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAHFG5Df028909; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 07:16:05 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAHFFr7r028822; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 07:15:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 07:15:53 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner@mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 06:22:31 -0900 To: "vortex-l" From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Variation on Szpak cell Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56492 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The following is an extension of the "Excitronics and Szpak" thread. Fig. 3 below is a modified version of Fig. 1 in the Szpak paper at: Electrolysis potential Ground (+) (-) I I -----I------------------I----- | I I | (++) | I I | Key: c | # I | c | # I | I - Electrolysis power wire c | # I | # - Platinum screen anode c | # I | g - Gold foil c | # I | s - Piezo substrate c | I | p - Deposited Pd c | ggg I | -| - Clear plastic cell wall c | pgsgIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII | c - Copper foil HV electrode c | pgs | c | pgs | c | pgs | c | pgs | c | pgsg | c | ggg | c | | c | # | c | # | c | # | c | # | c | # | c | | c ------------------------------ c c c c Foil 1 Fig. 3 - Diagram of variation on Szpak's cell Note that ascii figure viewing requires use of a fixed font, like Courier, and Microsoft Outlook users may need to select "fixed" in the "textsize" submenu of the "view" menu. The intent of this configuration is to maximize the imposed electrostatic field imposed perpendicular to the surface of the cathode. I suggested earlier that this might increase the electron density at the surface of the cathode. After seeing the configuration in Fig. 3 it is fairly clear that the vast amount of the potential drop should be across the plastic surface of the cell. Still, the E field is present at the interface, countered by ion redistribution and polarized molecule orientation. Within the cathode the electron distribution should be skewed toward the active surface. There may be unexpected results similar to what Szpak obtained. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Nov 17 07:21:50 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAHFLheX015792; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 07:21:43 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAHFLbfr015740; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 07:21:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 07:21:37 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner@mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 06:28:14 -0900 To: "vortex-l" From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Variation on Szpak cell Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56493 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Fig. 3 below is a modified version of Fig. 1 in the Szpak paper at: The electrolysis anode is a platinum screen with a hole cut in its center to accomodate the cathode. The cathode is in effect the edge of Szpak's cathode. Electrolysis potential Ground (+) (-) I I -----I------------------I----- | I I | (++) | I I | Key: c | # I | c | # I | I - Electrolysis power wire c | # I | # - Platinum screen anode c | # I | g - Gold foil c | # I | s - Piezo substrate c | I | p - Deposited Pd c | ggg I | -| - Clear plastic cell wall c | pgsgIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII | c - Copper foil HV electrode c | pgs | c | pgs | c | pgs | c | pgs | c | pgsg | c | ggg | c | | c | # | c | # | c | # | c | # | c | # | c | | c ------------------------------ c c c c Foil 1 Fig. 3 - Diagram of variation on Szpak's cell Note that ascii figure viewing requires use of a fixed font, like Courier, and Microsoft Outlook users may need to select "fixed" in the "textsize" submenu of the "view" menu. The intent of this configuration is to maximize the imposed electrostatic field imposed perpendicular to the surface of the cathode. I suggested earlier that this might increase the electron density at the surface of the cathode. After seeing the configuration in Fig. 3 it is fairly clear that the vast amount of the potential drop should be across the plastic surface of the cell. Still, the E field is present at the interface, countered by ion redistribution and polarized molecule orientation. Within the cathode the electron distribution should be skewed toward the active surface. There may be unexpected results similar to what Szpak obtained. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Nov 17 09:04:03 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAHH3tDf031111; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 09:03:55 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAHH3sdZ031099; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 09:03:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 09:03:54 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <410-220041131716239700@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Variation on Szpak cell Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 10:02:39 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94072e65795c13e98de2acb21d872420f18350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.162.168 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56494 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Horace Heffner wrote: > > After seeing the configuration in Fig. 3 it is fairly clear that > the vast amount of the potential drop should be across the plastic surface > of the cell. > Still, the E field is present at the interface, countered by > ion redistribution and polarized molecule orientation. > Yes. One might do just as well by scrapping the conduction electrodes and switching to Electrodialysis Technology: http://www.ionics.com/toolbox/edr.htm "Over forty years ago, Ionics invented and introduced ion-exchange membranes and the Electrodialysis (ED) process which incorporates such membranes. ED is a process in which solutions are desalted or concentrated electrically. Salts in water dissociate into positively and negatively charged ions. The key to the ED process in a semi-permeable barrier which allows passage of either positively charged ions (cations) or negatively charged ions (anions) while excluding passage of ions of the opposite charge. These semi-permeable barriers are commonly known as ion-exchange, ion-selective or electrodialysis membranes" This way one might get fields of megavolts/meter just like the cell membranes in Kervrans Chickens (or oats) that effect biological transmutations. http://www.rexresearch.com/kervran/kervran.htm http://www.rexresearch.com/goldfein/goldfein.htm Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

Horace Heffner wrote:
 
>
> After seeing the configuration in Fig. 3 it is fairly clear that
> the vast amount of the potential drop should be across the plastic surface
> of the cell. 
> Still, the E field is present at the interface, countered by
> ion redistribution and polarized molecule orientation.
>  
Yes. One might do just as well by scrapping the conduction electrodes
and switching to Electrodialysis Technology:
 
 
"Over forty years ago, Ionics invented and introduced ion-exchange membranes and the Electrodialysis (ED) process which incorporates such membranes. ED is a process in which solutions are desalted or concentrated electrically. Salts in water dissociate into positively and negatively charged ions. The key to the ED process in a semi-permeable barrier which allows passage of either positively charged ions (cations) or negatively charged ions (anions) while excluding passage of ions of the opposite charge. These semi-permeable barriers are commonly known as ion-exchange, ion-selective or electrodialysis membranes"
 
This way one might get fields of megavolts/meter just like the cell membranes in Kervrans Chickens (or oats) that
effect biological transmutations.
 
 
Frederick
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Nov 17 10:19:00 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAHIIuDf020367; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 10:18:56 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAHIIp8u020329; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 10:18:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 10:18:51 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <410-2200411317171736610@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Donnan & Nernst Equations Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 11:17:36 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9403d5f6d6e187a401540b38080c9459cb5350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.165.240 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56495 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Complicated stuff to interpret. http://www.ruf.rice.edu/~bioslabs/bios315/mempot1.html http://www.ruf.rice.edu/~bioslabs/bios315/mempot2.html http://www.science.uwaterloo.ca/~cchieh/cact/c123/nernsteq.html "Understanding is the key. Take time to understand it, there is no point in rushing." These cell potentials were explored (Taos Hum too) to see how the cochlear membrane (in the inner ear) can act as a "soft diode" and demodulate some amplitude-modulated UHF TV signals and cause "ringing in your ears", especially when the signal goes to full power for the 15,750 Hz rep rate sync pulse. One of the reasons for the switch to digital TV transmission. Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

Complicated stuff to interpret. 
 
 
 
 
"Understanding is the key. Take time to understand it, there is no point in rushing." 
 
These cell potentials were explored (Taos Hum too)  to see how the cochlear membrane (in the inner ear) can
act as a "soft diode"  and demodulate some amplitude-modulated UHF TV signals and cause "ringing in your ears",
especially when the signal goes to full power for the 15,750 Hz rep rate sync pulse.
 
One of the reasons for the switch to digital TV transmission.
 
Frederick
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Nov 17 15:16:16 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAHNGBDf009721; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 15:16:12 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAHNG5hV009678; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 15:16:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 15:16:05 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <410-2200411317221450210@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: The Baghdad Battery Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 16:14:50 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9403565a43cb916a1e8830b8a40457466b3350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.159.30 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56496 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII What is this? http://www.unmuseum.org/bbattery.htm Getting a charge out of a pot? Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

What is this? 
 
 
Getting a charge out of a pot?
 
Frederick

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Nov 17 17:51:30 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAI1pNEo022667; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 17:51:24 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAI1pLYv022632; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 17:51:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 17:51:21 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20041117175532.03f72e18@mail.dlsi.net> X-Sender: steven%newenergytimes.com@mail.dlsi.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 17:55:51 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: NEW ENERGY TIMES News Flash, Nov. 11, 2004 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_-854662234==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56497 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --=====================_-854662234==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed For Immediate Release Cold Fusion Fever Spreads Through the Internet (Again) LOS ANGELES, CALIF. Nov. 17, 2004. In a stunning reversal from the lack of media attention throughout the last 15 years, the cold fusion community not only is starting to get widespread attention through the use of the Internet and other forms of electronic communication, but some researchers within the community are actually displeased about this. Two websites, www.newenergytimes.com and www.iscmns.org recently posted information from the most recent international cold fusion conference (ICCF-11), which, to the chagrin of some, contained information which the presenters at the conference did not intend to release publicly. The independent Web sites are maintained by two former information technology specialists, Steven Krivit and William Collis, respectively. Despite the fact that conference presentations were open to the public and press, the disclosure of certain presentations has now come as a surprise and shock to some. "I am astonished!" said one researcher. "This material belongs to me and my fellow authors," apparently oblivious to the fact that a handful of reporters and one television crew were in the audience. The topic of scientific secrecy has reared its ugly head within the cold fusion community and the formerly neglected group of researchers are now grappling with the complex issues of confidentiality and copyrights. The disclosure of one of the presentations caused one of the U.S.' leading cold fusion researchers some consternation, saying that this might result "in me not lecturing in this manner again." Despite the concerns of a few, there are others within the community who defend the public's right to know and the free exchange of scientific information. As cold fusion research gains acceptance into mainstream science, it is starting to lose the quiet, private world that so many within the community have, to some extent, enjoyed in the last decade and a half. Errata to Nov. 16, 2004 New Energy Times Newsletter The news story referring to the Nashua Times article regarding Infinite Energy (www.infinite-energy.com) was mistakenly repeated in the recent New Energy Times (tm) newsletter. Recent news from the New Energy Foundation and Infinite Energy is that they are starting to attract new talent and have recently appointed three technical editors, to be announced in the next issue of Infinite Energy magazine. --=====================_-854662234==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" For Immediate Release

Cold Fusion Fever Spreads Through the Internet (Again)

LOS ANGELES, CALIF. Nov. 17, 2004.
In a stunning reversal from the lack of media attention throughout the last 15 years, the cold fusion community not only is starting to get widespread attention through the use of the Internet and other forms of electronic communication, but some researchers within the community are actually displeased about this. 

Two websites, www.newenergytimes.com and www.iscmns.org recently posted information from the most recent international cold fusion conference (ICCF-11), which, to the chagrin of some, contained information which the presenters at the conference did not intend to release publicly. The independent Web sites are maintained by two former information technology specialists, Steven Krivit and William Collis, respectively.

Despite the fact that conference presentations were open to the public and press, the disclosure of certain presentations has now come as a surprise and shock to some. "I am astonished!" said one researcher. "This material belongs to me and my fellow authors," apparently oblivious to the fact that a handful of reporters and one television crew were in the audience.

The topic of scientific secrecy has reared its ugly head within the cold fusion community and the formerly neglected group of researchers are now grappling with the complex issues of confidentiality and copyrights. The disclosure of one of the presentations caused one of the U.S.' leading cold fusion researchers some consternation, saying that this might result "in me not lecturing in this manner again."

Despite the concerns of a few, there are others within the community who defend the public's right to know and the free exchange of scientific information. As cold fusion research gains acceptance into mainstream science, it is starting to lose the quiet, private world that so many within the community have, to some extent, enjoyed in the last decade and a half.


Errata to Nov. 16, 2004 New Energy Times Newsletter
The news story referring to the Nashua Times article regarding Infinite Energy (www.infinite-energy.com) was mistakenly repeated in the recent New Energy Times (tm) newsletter. Recent news from the New Energy Foundation and Infinite Energy is that they are starting to attract new talent and have recently appointed three technical editors, to be announced in the next issue of Infinite Energy magazine.

--=====================_-854662234==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Nov 17 20:37:16 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAI4bCEo009624; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 20:37:12 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAI4ZnxC008975; Wed, 17 Nov 2004 20:35:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 20:35:49 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <410-220041141833433810@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Cold Fusion On A Roll? Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 21:34:33 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940192ee45b65fb15eb85a6609bcdfc5afc350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.195.139 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56498 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII The rolled up metallized paper capacitor configuration or paper-spaced metal-foil rolls in D2O Electrolyte cans would be a way to get the high interface fields with or without a few volts or so applied between the "plates". The wicking action of paper (or fiberglass) can draw the electrolyte several inches against gravity allowing the roll to rest on it's side in the can.without need for large amounts of D2O. Based on Szpak's paper, it would be interesting to see if such a device would self-heat without an applied voltage. http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/SzpakSprecursors.pdf Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

The rolled up metallized paper capacitor configuration or paper-spaced metal-foil rolls
in D2O Electrolyte cans would be a way to get the high interface fields with or without a few volts
or so applied between the "plates".
The wicking action of paper (or fiberglass) can draw the electrolyte several inches against gravity
allowing the roll to rest on it's side in the can.without need for large amounts of D2O.
 
Based on Szpak's paper, it  would be interesting to see if such a device would self-heat
without an applied voltage.
 
 
Frederick
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Nov 18 05:20:15 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAIDKCEo011970; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 05:20:12 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAIDKABx011899; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 05:20:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 05:20:10 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <410-2200411418121853440@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Cold Fusion On A Roll? Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 06:18:53 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9405926c3209422f0936da746e5f68cc16f350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.213 Resent-Message-ID: <82CHQ.A.05C.KGKnBB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56499 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII This excellent ( 40 page pdf) primer on electrochemistry stipulates that interface potentials of a few millivolts can create electric fields on the order of 100 Kilovolts per centimeter or more. http://www.chem1.com/acad/pdf/c1xElchem.pdf D2O Electrolyte-Wetted Metallized paper or fiberglass or sandwiched foil rolls (Pt-Pd?) should accomplish as much CF-wise as running a current through a cell. Get out the paper towels or toilet tissue and aluminum foil? Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

This excellent ( 40 page pdf) primer on electrochemistry stipulates that interface potentials of
a few millivolts can create electric fields on the order of 100 Kilovolts per centimeter or more.
 
 
D2O Electrolyte-Wetted Metallized paper or fiberglass or sandwiched foil rolls (Pt-Pd?) should
accomplish as much CF-wise as running a current through a cell.
 
Get out the paper towels or toilet tissue and aluminum foil?
 
Frederick
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Nov 18 09:26:34 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAIHQTEo008799; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 09:26:30 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAIHQMLc008764; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 09:26:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 09:26:22 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20041118172611.69579.qmail@web81106.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 09:26:11 -0800 (PST) From: Jones Beene Subject: Triple coherency experiment To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56500 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The following is an evolution of ideas towards the design of a state-of-the-art LENR experiment. The purpose here is to explain an enhancement called “triple coherency,” and secondly to provide a setup that should be attractive to younger researchers and college-level physics projects. The device will be rather small in size, does not require calorimetry, and is not particularly complicated, except for the availability of the light source. The most general goal of the proposed experiment, which is currently being designed by myself (and any volunteers who wish to supply input), is to look for charged particles being emitted from a tiny LENR cathode which will be irradiated with light of a particular frequency matching both phonon vibration (by virtue of exactly the same temperature equivalent) and also matched to the AC modulation (by coherent light) of a DC bias current. It is hoped and suspected that this “triple coherency” (overlapping coherency between photon, phonon, and conduction electrons) will give the same kind of paradigm shift that arises in light itself, once it becomes phase locked, as in a laser. This appears to be a novel concept, and despite having some potential for IP value, it is being put into the public domain to encourage faster implementation by anyone who can be convinced of the potential advantages of this methodology for achieving BEC-like “condensation”, leading perhaps to a robust new kind of LENR. To do this correctly, the experimenter must employ a cathode-membrane, which can be described as “two-way”. The reason for this will become apparent, but basically the cathode (which is a proton membrane similar to a fuel cell membrane) must itself form part of the wall of the cell into which deuterium gas is fed. This way, energetic charged particles can be expelled - external to the cell, where they can be captured and analyzed. It is so simple an idea, one is led to wonder why it isn’t in more general use, but then again, gas-phase LENR is rare enough, not to mention “cold gas phase”. BTW It doesn’t matter if only a few of the energetic particles escape, because billions are expected to be created, based on similar work. If they are really derived from fusion events, then even a few will “stick out like a sore thumb”. To backtrack a little and to try to explain how triple coherency would work, one should understand the interplay of kinetic vibration with mass: and the importance of the electronvolt (symbol: eV) which is the amount of energy gained by a single unbound electron when it falls through an electrostatic potential difference of one volt. This is a very small amount of energy but with a mass, and a frequency, and a wavelength equivalent. Mass equivalent: 1 eV/c = 1.783 x 10^-36 kg. For comparison, the typical atmospheric O2 molecule has a kinetic energy of about 0.03 eV. To convert a particle's energy in electronvolts into its temperature in Kelvin, multiply by 11,605. Another important correlation of the electron volt is with wavelength and frequency: 1 eV/hc = 806.6 mm-1 1 eV/h = 241.8 Thz terahertz. In this experiment we will use theory to chose a "desired" temperature at which confined deuterium should show markedly increased QM effects and then we will try to tailor the experiment to that. IOW if we should chose a temperature of minus 42 F or about .02 eV, then we will need a corresponding wavelength of about 40 microns, and a coherent light frequency of 4.8 terahertz and we will cool the cell accordingly. The chosen temperature will be based on the microstructure of the cathode, so that this choice assumes phonons of about one fourth the diameter (quarter wavelength) or 10 micron diameter, which are in effect, little antennae. The optimum parameters for QM effects will vary considerably, based on the chosen matrix, but appears to be near .02 eV, based upon certain material-specific assumptions (using a PEM fuel cell membrane, for instance, which is the simplest choice), but this has not yet been pinpointed from theory precisely for other cathodes. Yes. Before you ask. This whole idea assumes that some forms of LENR are, in effect, “enhanced” (higher probability) QM reactions. But the beauty of the design is that it can be successful, even without this QM underpinning – so long as “hot” charged particles are produced at all. If in such an experiment, deuterium gas passes through a cathode wall, and IF “only” an electrochemical process were to be involved, deuterons will emerge uncharged and not be particularly “hot” – no more than a few eV at most. If a nuclear reaction has occurred, some of the particles emerging from the cathode’s “flip side” (those which do not suffer an inordinate number of collisions on the way out) will emerge with thousands or even millions of times more energy than if only electrochemical reactions were involved. These are easily witnessed in any number of ways, such as the simplest: detecting cold fusion charge particles with the CR-39 film method (which technique can be found on the LENR-CANR site). There are any number of reasons why such an experiment, if successful, will be far more convincing to mainstream physicists than calorimetry or even transmutation products found in a cathode. And if one can fashion an active cathode from a cm-sized piece of PEM fuel cell membrane, rather than using Pd foil, then all the better, as in either case, there are reasons to believe that the membrane life will be short. But the main point interest to me and to many observers is both theoretical (is LENR, or at least on form of it a BEC-like reaction?) and also commercial. The later point comes from the potential ability to capture charged particles in a multipactor or other direct conversion device. Think of it as capturing “electricity” from LENR rather than low grade heat… Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Nov 18 10:01:12 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAII165k016168; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 10:01:06 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAII0IUq015618; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 10:00:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 10:00:18 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: "Vortex" , Subject: RE: Cold Fusion On A Roll? Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 12:59:31 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <410-2200411418121853440@earthlink.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56501 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hey Fred. Indeed, the ~1/2v drop across the cathode face is sufficient to crush water molecules flat and reduce their permittivity from ~80 to ~6. Supercaps would be Superdupercaps if not for this effect. Huge gradients are the norm at such thin interfacial layers. K. -----Original Message----- From: Frederick Sparber [mailto:fjsparber@earthlink.net] Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2004 7:19 AM To: vortex-l Subject: Re: Cold Fusion On A Roll? This excellent ( 40 page pdf) primer on electrochemistry stipulates that interface potentials of a few millivolts can create electric fields on the order of 100 Kilovolts per centimeter or more. http://www.chem1.com/acad/pdf/c1xElchem.pdf D2O Electrolyte-Wetted Metallized paper or fiberglass or sandwiched foil rolls (Pt-Pd?) should accomplish as much CF-wise as running a current through a cell. Get out the paper towels or toilet tissue and aluminum foil? Frederick From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Nov 18 11:02:43 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAIJ2W5k001058; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 11:02:33 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAIJ2UMi001045; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 11:02:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 11:02:30 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <410-220041141818115410@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: RE: Cold Fusion On A Roll? Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 12:01:15 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940c4a610078164c0aac03fd3da94544682350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.159.41 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56502 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Keith wrote: > > Hey Fred. > > Indeed, the ~1/2v drop across the cathode face is sufficient to > crush water molecules flat and reduce their permittivity from ~80 > to ~6. Supercaps would be Superdupercaps if not for this effect. > Huge gradients are the norm at such thin interfacial layers. > Since the force on a charge +/- q = q * E wouldn't a field E of 10 million volts/meter across a thin membrane give a force of 1.6e-19 newtons on an ion (+/-) and an electron making it act like a helluva particle accelerator, that could overcome the repulsive coulomb force F = Z1* Z2 * kq^2/R^2 ? Or allow the electron to "neutralize" the charge on a H+ or D+ which would reduce the coulomb repulsive force to " Zip" allowing Cold Fusion ? Makes Kervran's Chicken transmutations more believable. Frederick > K. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Frederick Sparber [mailto:fjsparber@earthlink.net] > Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2004 7:19 AM > To: vortex-l > Subject: Re: Cold Fusion On A Roll? > > > This excellent ( 40 page pdf) primer on electrochemistry stipulates that interface potentials of > a few millivolts can create electric fields on the order of 100 Kilovolts per centimeter or more. > > http://www.chem1.com/acad/pdf/c1xElchem.pdf > > D2O Electrolyte-Wetted Metallized paper or fiberglass or sandwiched foil rolls (Pt-Pd?) should > accomplish as much CF-wise as running a current through a cell. > > Get out the paper towels or toilet tissue and aluminum foil? > > Frederick From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Nov 18 12:04:17 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAIK4CEo019092; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 12:04:12 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAIK4AS9019061; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 12:04:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 12:04:10 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <410-22004114181925350@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: RE: Cold Fusion On A Roll? Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 13:02:53 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94058c28cc24799ebaf2ab0c3181e131203350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.117.236 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56503 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Keith wrote: > > Supercaps would be Superdupercaps if not for this effect. > Huge gradients are the norm at such thin interfacial layers. > Speaking of capacitors, the anodized aluminum oxide capacitors with an electrolyte wick (paper or fiberglass?) between the oxide layers can be made (rapidly) by dipping aluminum foil or sheet ( hooked to positive side of a 250 volt DC power supply) into a weak acid in a stainless steel "bucket" hooked to the negative side of the PS. Would you believe "Molybdic Acid" in distilled water ? CAUTION: ELECTRICAL SHOCK HAZARD!! The hard, grayish-brown insulating anodized coating forms as fast as you can immerse the aluminum. I never tried it with anything thinner than 1.5 mm because it really chews up the aluminum. :-) Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

Keith wrote:
>
>  Supercaps would be Superdupercaps if not for this effect.
> Huge gradients are the norm at such thin interfacial layers.
>
Speaking of capacitors, the anodized aluminum oxide capacitors with an
electrolyte wick (paper or fiberglass?)  between the oxide layers can be made (rapidly) by dipping
aluminum foil or sheet ( hooked to positive side of a 250 volt DC power supply) into a weak
acid in a stainless steel "bucket" hooked to the negative side of the PS.
 
Would you believe "Molybdic Acid" in distilled water ?
 
CAUTION: ELECTRICAL SHOCK HAZARD!!
 
The hard, grayish-brown insulating anodized coating forms as fast as you can immerse the aluminum.
 
I never tried it  with anything thinner than 1.5 mm because it really chews up the aluminum. :-)
 
Frederick
 
 

 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Nov 18 14:02:22 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAIM01Fm013741; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 14:02:20 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAILU2Ug000366; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 13:30:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 13:30:02 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.1.2.0.0.20041118143754.021a3360@pop.theworld.com> X-Sender: mica@pop.theworld.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.2.0 Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 14:41:57 -0500 To: knagel@gis.net, From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: RE: Cold Fusion On A Roll? In-Reply-To: References: <410-2200411418121853440@earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56504 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:59 PM 11/18/2004, Keith Nagel wrote: >Hey Fred. > >Indeed, the ~1/2v drop across the cathode face is sufficient to >crush water molecules flat and reduce their permittivity from ~80 >to ~6. Supercaps would be Superdupercaps if not for this effect. >Huge gradients are the norm at such thin interfacial layers. > >K. FWIW, the molecules do not flatten. And the dielectric constant (the real part of the complex permittivity which you mention) is due to inscription of L-D defects in the oxygen lattice. One also observes this change at higher frequencies and in other water Ice phases where the inscription length of the LD defects shortens. Swartz. M., "Dances with Protons - Ferroelectric Inscriptions in Water/Ice Relevant to Cold Fusion and Some Energy Systems", Infinite Energy, 44, (2002). Dr. Mitchell Swartz From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Nov 18 15:49:49 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAINnbEo019536; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 15:49:37 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAINnZZk019522; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 15:49:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 15:49:35 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner@mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 14:56:17 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Triple coherency experiment Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56505 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Just some minor notes: At 9:26 AM 11/18/4, Jones Beene wrote: > ...This is a very small >amount of energy but with a mass, and a frequency, and >a wavelength equivalent. Mass equivalent: >1 eV/c = 1.783 x 10^-36 kg. The above is a typo and should be 1 eV/(c^2) = 1.783 x 10^-36 kg. > >For comparison, the typical atmospheric O2 molecule >has a kinetic energy of about 0.03 eV. To convert a >particle's energy in electronvolts into its >temperature in Kelvin, multiply by 11,605. Another >important correlation of the electron volt is with >wavelength and frequency: >1 eV/hc = 806.6 mm-1 The above is neither a wavelength nor a frequency, and appears to be an accidental inversion. >From Plank's law E = h*nu, we have frequency nu = E/h = (1 eV)/h = 2.418x10^14 Hz = 241.8 THz >1 eV/h = 241.8 Thz terahertz. Right for frequency, but wavelength lambda is lambda = h/p = h/(E*c) = h*c/E = h*c/(1 eV) = 1.2398x10^-6 m or, since we already know frequency nu, we can just say lambda = c/nu = 1.2398x10^-6 m. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Nov 18 18:47:07 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAJ2l4Eo010427; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 18:47:04 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAJ2kc9J010325; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 18:46:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 18:46:38 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20041119024631.32051.qmail@web81101.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 18:46:31 -0800 (PST) From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: Triple coherency experiment To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56506 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: HH: >1 eV/hc = 806.6 mm-1 > The above is neither a wavelength nor a frequency, > and appears to be an accidental inversion. Well, 806.6 per millimeter or .806 micron is a wavelength, but thanks for pointing out that it is the wrong wavelength. I thought it looked suspicious this morning .... The easy formula: E (in eV) = 1240/wavelength in nm or wavelength in nm = 1240/ E (in eV) Which gives the correct Lambda of 1.24 microns and not .806 Thanks for pointing this out... a few too many things going on in my ancient brain today to keep them all straight. Normally if I'm going to be off, it is by considerably more than 50%... usually an order of magnitute at least... Not that its any consolation... Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Nov 18 20:06:07 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAJ4625k014139; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 20:06:03 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAJ45oVx014034; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 20:05:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 20:05:50 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner@mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 19:12:33 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Triple coherency experiment Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56507 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 6:46 PM 11/18/4, Jones Beene wrote: >HH: > >>1 eV/hc = 806.6 mm-1 > >> The above is neither a wavelength nor a frequency, >> and appears to be an accidental inversion. > >Well, 806.6 per millimeter or .806 micron is a >wavelength, but thanks for pointing out that it is the >wrong wavelength. I thought it looked suspicious this >morning .... The quantity 806.6 per millimeter is not 0.806 micron. It is not a length at all. It is a linear density of 806.6 non-dimensional units per mm. You are having what I call a temporary "brain check." Don't worry about it - I have them all the time and still survive as yet. 8^) The term "brain check" I think it comes from the good old days when the "CPU CHECK" light coming on sometimes meant very bad things for a computer. Maybe yours is due to the effects of Frank Grimer's tinkering with dimensional analysis. 8^) Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Nov 18 21:25:17 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAJ5Ou5k001432; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 21:24:57 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAJ5OseI001399; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 21:24:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 21:24:54 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <410-22004115195248320@ix.netcom.com> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: aki@ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.1.47.0 (Windows) From: "Akira Kawasaki" To: "vortex-l" Subject: ICCF-11: Nov. 17th New Energy Times 'News Flash' Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 21:24:08 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: c4cc7f5f697e8746f66dc3a06d5924d8ad6ff300dcef5b9223a51dbd8f6d3dab2601a10902912494350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.232.12.25 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56508 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Nov. 18th 2004 Vortex, It was a major disappointment that the untimely death of Dr. Eugene Mallove was barely mentioned and not memorialized at all in the opening remarks in the opening of the ICCF-11Conference by Biberian. Somehow Preparata deserved better at ICCF-8 and he died of natural causes. There is now an award medal in his likeness (Preparata) being given out at each Conference. Hagelstein received one at ICCF-11. It is nothing new to me that the issue about concern of public exposure on ICCF presentations exists. I had thought that these Conferences were openly open to the public and media. And that everybody would be desirous of such exposure. Especially since the believers of CF were bemoaning the lack of public support of pursuit of the phenomena in its various forms. But I found out different when I started to videotape the entire Conference beginning in 1995 at my own expense. Fortunately Fleischmann prevailed over opposition by Preparata (deceased) to my archiving the presentations. It was allowed with an understanding that the videotaping was for personal archival purposes without any public commercial distribution unless with permission of the organizers. This was fine with me. So it went for each ICCF with the issue being passed on within a narrow margin each time. It has had a cooling effect on enthusiasm (for scientists, not science). I did not record the ICCF-10 but fortunately Eugene Mallove did. I did not record the ICCF-11 for health reasons. One other trivia: ISCMNS. I believe this stands for 'International Society for Condensed Matter Nuclear Studies'. I don't know who thought up the idea of a society for cold fusion studies but if necessary, wouldn't it be better to have an 'Interdisciplinary Society of Low Energy Nuclear Studies'? This would include the wide field of experimental results that have been reported over the years internationally. Except that is, if one of the purposes of ISCMNS is to narrow down the number of participants 'officially qualified and recognized' to be pursuing CF. Who knows? -ak- ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Nov. 18th  2004
 
Vortex,
 
It was a major disappointment that the untimely death of Dr. Eugene Mallove was barely mentioned and not memorialized at all in the opening remarks in the opening of the ICCF-11Conference by Biberian. Somehow Preparata deserved better at ICCF-8 and he died of natural causes. There is now an award medal in his likeness (Preparata) being given out at each Conference. Hagelstein received one at ICCF-11.
 
It is nothing new to me that the issue about concern of public exposure on ICCF presentations exists.
 
I had thought that these Conferences were openly open to the public and media. And that everybody would be desirous of such exposure. Especially since the believers of CF were bemoaning the lack of public support of pursuit of the phenomena in its various forms.  But I found out different when I started to videotape the entire Conference beginning in 1995 at my own expense. Fortunately Fleischmann prevailed over opposition by Preparata (deceased) to my archiving the presentations. It was allowed with an understanding that the videotaping was for personal archival purposes without any public commercial distribution unless with permission of the organizers. This was fine with me. So it went for each ICCF with the issue being passed on within a narrow margin each time. It has had a cooling effect on enthusiasm (for scientists, not science).  I did not record the ICCF-10 but fortunately Eugene Mallove did. I did not record the ICCF-11 for health reasons.
 
One other trivia: ISCMNS. I believe this stands for 'International Society for Condensed Matter Nuclear Studies'.  I don't know who thought up the idea of a society for cold fusion studies but if necessary, wouldn't it be better to have an 'Interdisciplinary Society of Low Energy Nuclear Studies'? This would include the wide field of experimental results that have been reported over the years internationally. Except that is, if one of the purposes of ISCMNS is to narrow down the number of participants 'officially qualified and recognized' to be pursuing CF. Who knows?
 
-ak-  

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Nov 18 21:58:54 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAJ5wJ5k010986; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 21:58:19 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAJ5wDNK010921; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 21:58:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 21:58:13 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20041119055740.006a2d3c@pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk@pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 05:57:40 +0000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Triple coherency experiment Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56509 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 07:12 pm 18-11-04 -0900, you wrote: > Maybe yours is >due to the effects of Frank Grimer's tinkering with dimensional analysis. >8^) More than likely ;-) Grimer From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Nov 19 03:43:19 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAJBh5qG032560; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 03:43:16 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAJBfdDX032350; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 03:41:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 03:41:39 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20041119114106.00686cd8@pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk@pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 11:41:06 +0000 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Capacitors Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56510 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I have here an excerpt from a play I was sent where the main character, Peter, meets James Clerk Maxwell in a dream. Maxwell is not allowed to discuss any knowledge he has gained after his death. I have changed the script slightly by changing the main character's name and replacing protons and electrons with materons (positronium ash). Since most, if not all, Vortexians know vastly more about capacitors and stuff than I do, I would be interested in any Vortexian critique on the argument Peter presents to Maxwell. ============================================================ Peter: Now, let us attach a wire from one electrode of a fresh battery to a metal plate and a second wire from the other electrode to a parallel metal plate. Electrons will build up on the plate attached to the negative electrode and be removed from the other plate, until the voltage across the plates is 1.5 volts. The parallel plates are a form of capacitor. A capacitor stores electricity. If we fill the space between the plates with a material, we will find that the capacitor will store more electricity, at the same voltage. The relative dielectric constant of a material is defined as the ratio of the amount of electricity (or number of electrons) stored by a capacitor when filled with the material to the amount stored when it is filled with vacuum. A capacitor is believed to work by the following mechanism: The extra electrons on the negative plate of the capacitor repel negative charges in the material, while the net positive charges in the other plate of the capacitor attract negative charges in the material. This results in an electrical distortion in the material that tends to reduce the voltage across the capacitor and permit more electrons to flow from the negative electrode of the battery to the capacitor and from the positive plate of the capacitor to the positive electrode of the battery. For this reason, a capacitor filled with a material with a relative dielectric constant of two will store twice as much electricity as a capacitor filled with vacuum, which, by definition, has a relative dielectric constant of one. That vacuum is capable of storing electricity suggests, to me, that vacuum contains positive and negative charges. This is expected if the space between the plates of the capacitor is filled with a matrix of incipient positrons and electrons (materons - having neutral charge and neutral mass). James: Why shouldn't void be able to store electricity? Peter: Because void contains no charged particles. Wouldn't you expect air, which contains particles made up of protons and electrons, to have an infinitely greater dielectric constant than void? But the dielectric constants of vacuum and air are practically the same. I have been talking about relative dielectric constant because it is a simpler concept than dielectric constant itself. Your equations require that vacuum have definite values of dielectric constant and permeability . How can void have such properties? James: I must plead the Fifth Amendment. [A gentleman enters at the back of the stage. He stacks some of the cards to form the base of a pyramid.] Peter: That is what I expected. Let's discuss the effects of alternating current on relative dielectric constant. With normal line current, where the direction of the current reverses 50 times per second, the dielectric constant of most materials is the same as with direct current, where the direction of the current does not change. This is true even at frequencies as high as a billion cycles per second. As the frequency is increased further, many of the effects that contribute to dielectric constant (for example the movement of atoms or ions) are too slow to respond, due to inertia. This causes the dielectric constants of materials to decrease dramatically . At the much higher light frequencies, only electrons/positrons have low enough inertia to respond. I consider the observation that the dielectric constant of vacuum does not change with frequency as further evidence of the presence of materons in vacuum. James: Much of your latest statement includes information that was not available to me. I don't think that I can comment........... ============================================================ Cheers Grimer From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Nov 19 06:59:52 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAJExjD2015125; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 06:59:45 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAJExhJe015114; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 06:59:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 06:59:43 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=JLHHcVSDpftuyhs8SVwI2ECEekMEhiwQxkbxgfEdJXl+jpxtwbxLbRGkzFFhOQ8QYhQ+NOjaFxw/2M0srilUPnDhoD5yGPPTAJLgfBFE+QSdL/eLlyry/DOSOXH/P6fRhT+zDVbnWa+LK//LjoxS9TtpGi9UrCWtY1WBLvRuDn0= ; Message-ID: <20041119145935.72996.qmail@web54508.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 06:59:35 -0800 (PST) From: Merlyn Subject: Re: Capacitors To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.20041119114106.00686cd8@pop.freeserve.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1334390466-1100876375=:71416" Resent-Message-ID: <8RMTz.A.GsD.epgnBB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56511 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-1334390466-1100876375=:71416 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I would say that is a very good argument for the presence of an aether. Whether composed of materons or of something else entirely. I have designed an experiment (which I do not have the equipment to complete) which could prove the existance of an aether. 2 beams of charged particles projected through a vacuum should repel each other if the particles are the same polarity and the velocity is low. the behavior at higher velocities is dependant upon the nature of magnetism. If magnetism is the result of a charged particle moving through the aether, then as the particle velocity increases with respect to the aether then the particle beams will gradually cease to repel and start to attract each other as magnetic forces overcome electric repulsion. Of course, if there is no aether, then the behavior of the particle beams would be unchanged and the nature of magnetism is not what I believe it is. Grimer wrote: I have here an excerpt from a play I was sent where the main character, Peter, meets James Clerk Maxwell in a dream. Maxwell is not allowed to discuss any knowledge he has gained after his death. I have changed the script slightly by changing the main character's name and replacing protons and electrons with materons (positronium ash). Since most, if not all, Vortexians know vastly more about capacitors and stuff than I do, I would be interested in any Vortexian critique on the argument Peter presents to Maxwell. ============================================================ Peter: Now, let us attach a wire from one electrode of a fresh battery to a metal plate and a second wire from the other electrode to a parallel metal plate. Electrons will build up on the plate attached to the negative electrode and be removed from the other plate, until the voltage across the plates is 1.5 volts. The parallel plates are a form of capacitor. A capacitor stores electricity. If we fill the space between the plates with a material, we will find that the capacitor will store more electricity, at the same voltage. The relative dielectric constant of a material is defined as the ratio of the amount of electricity (or number of electrons) stored by a capacitor when filled with the material to the amount stored when it is filled with vacuum. A capacitor is believed to work by the following mechanism: The extra electrons on the negative plate of the capacitor repel negative charges in the material, while the net positive charges in the other plate of the capacitor attract negative charges in the material. This results in an electrical distortion in the material that tends to reduce the voltage across the capacitor and permit more electrons to flow from the negative electrode of the battery to the capacitor and from the positive plate of the capacitor to the positive electrode of the battery. For this reason, a capacitor filled with a material with a relative dielectric constant of two will store twice as much electricity as a capacitor filled with vacuum, which, by definition, has a relative dielectric constant of one. That vacuum is capable of storing electricity suggests, to me, that vacuum contains positive and negative charges. This is expected if the space between the plates of the capacitor is filled with a matrix of incipient positrons and electrons (materons - having neutral charge and neutral mass). James: Why shouldn't void be able to store electricity? Peter: Because void contains no charged particles. Wouldn't you expect air, which contains particles made up of protons and electrons, to have an infinitely greater dielectric constant than void? But the dielectric constants of vacuum and air are practically the same. I have been talking about relative dielectric constant because it is a simpler concept than dielectric constant itself. Your equations require that vacuum have definite values of dielectric constant and permeability . How can void have such properties? James: I must plead the Fifth Amendment. [A gentleman enters at the back of the stage. He stacks some of the cards to form the base of a pyramid.] Peter: That is what I expected. Let's discuss the effects of alternating current on relative dielectric constant. With normal line current, where the direction of the current reverses 50 times per second, the dielectric constant of most materials is the same as with direct current, where the direction of the current does not change. This is true even at frequencies as high as a billion cycles per second. As the frequency is increased further, many of the effects that contribute to dielectric constant (for example the movement of atoms or ions) are too slow to respond, due to inertia. This causes the dielectric constants of materials to decrease dramatically . At the much higher light frequencies, only electrons/positrons have low enough inertia to respond. I consider the observation that the dielectric constant of vacuum does not change with frequency as further evidence of the presence of materons in vacuum. James: Much of your latest statement includes information that was not available to me. I don't think that I can comment........... ============================================================ Cheers Grimer Merlyn Magickal Engineer and Technical Metaphysicist __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --0-1334390466-1100876375=:71416 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
I would say that is a very good argument for the presence of an aether.  Whether composed of materons or of something else entirely.
 
I have designed an experiment (which I do not have the equipment to complete) which could prove the existance of an aether.
 
2 beams of charged particles projected through a vacuum should repel each other if the particles are the same polarity and the velocity is low.  the behavior at higher velocities is dependant upon the nature of magnetism.  If magnetism is the result of a charged particle moving through the aether, then as the particle velocity increases with respect to the aether then the particle beams will gradually cease to repel and start to attract each other as magnetic forces overcome electric repulsion.  Of course, if there is no aether, then the behavior of the particle beams would be unchanged and the nature of magnetism is not what I believe it is.

Grimer <f.grimer@grimer2.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
I have here an excerpt from a play I was sent where the main
character, Peter, meets James Clerk Maxwell in a dream.

Maxwell is not allowed to discuss any knowledge he has
gained after his death.

I have changed the script slightly by changing the main
character's name and replacing protons and electrons with
materons (positronium ash).

Since most, if not all, Vortexians know vastly more about
capacitors and stuff than I do, I would be interested in any
Vortexian critique on the argument Peter presents to Maxwell.


============================================================

Peter: Now, let us attach a wire from one electrode of a
fresh battery to a metal plate and a second wire from
the other electrode to a parallel metal plate.

Electrons will build up on the plate attached to the
negative electrode and be removed from the other
plate, until the voltage across the plates is 1.5
volts. The parallel plates are a form of capacitor.

A capacitor stores electricity. If we fill the space
between the plates with a material, we will find that
the capacitor will store more electricity, at the
same voltage.

The relative dielectric constant of a material is
defined as the ratio of the amount of electricity (or
number of electrons) stored by a capacitor when filled
with the material to the amount stored when it is
filled with vacuum.

A capacitor is believed to work by the following
mechanism: The extra electrons on the negative plate
of the capacitor repel negative charges in the
material, while the net positive charges in the other
plate of the capacitor attract negative charges in the
material. This results in an electrical distortion in
the material that tends to reduce the voltage across
the capacitor and permit more electrons to flow from
the negative electrode of the battery to the capacitor
and from the positive plate of the capacitor to the
positive electrode of the battery.

For this reason, a capacitor filled with a material
with a relative dielectric constant of two will store
twice as much electricity as a capacitor filled with
vacuum, which, by definition, has a relative
dielectric constant of one.

That vacuum is capable of storing electricity suggests,
to me, that vacuum contains positive and negative
charges. This is expected if the space between the
plates of the capacitor is filled with a matrix of
incipient positrons and electrons (materons - having
neutral charge and neutral mass).


James: Why shouldn't void be able to store electricity?


Peter: Because void contains no charged particles. Wouldn't
you expect air, which contains particles made up of
protons and electrons, to have an infinitely greater
dielectric constant than void? But the dielectric
constants of vacuum and air are practically the same.

I have been talking about relative dielectric
constant because it is a simpler concept than
dielectric constant itself. Your equations require
that vacuum have definite values of dielectric
constant and permeability . How can void have such
properties?


James: I must plead the Fifth Amendment.

[A gentleman enters at the back of the stage. He stacks
some of the cards to form the base of a pyramid.]

Peter: That is what I expected. Let's discuss the effects of
alternating current on relative dielectric constant.

With normal line current, where the direction of the
current reverses 50 times per second, the dielectric
constant of most materials is the same as with direct
current, where the direction of the current does not
change.

This is true even at frequencies as high as a billion
cycles per second. As the frequency is increased
further, many of the effects that contribute to
dielectric constant (for example the movement of
atoms or ions) are too slow to respond, due to
inertia. This causes the dielectric constants of
materials to decrease dramatically . At the much
higher light frequencies, only electrons/positrons
have low enough inertia to respond. I consider the
observation that the dielectric constant of vacuum
does not change with frequency as further evidence of
the presence of materons in vacuum.

James: Much of your latest statement includes information
that was not available to me. I don't think that
I can comment...........

============================================================

Cheers

Grimer



Merlyn
Magickal Engineer and Technical Metaphysicist

__________________________________________________
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http://mail.yahoo.com --0-1334390466-1100876375=:71416-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Nov 19 11:36:45 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAJJaXD2014105; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 11:36:37 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAJJaR9j014071; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 11:36:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 11:36:27 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: , Subject: RE: Cold Fusion On A Roll? Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 14:35:35 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.0.20041118143754.021a3360@pop.theworld.com> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56512 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Mitch. Well I think we can agree, that the bulk properties of water are substantially different than the thin film properties, particularly in this case where the film is about a molecule thick. Just to be sure we're on the same page, I was referring to the conditions at the cathode when the potential is less than breakover for the electrolyte. Perhaps you can post something more about your ideas; I have only a few back issues of that IE magazine and they're from 2001 and back so no luck on the article. K. -----Original Message----- From: Mitchell Swartz [mailto:mica@world.std.com] Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2004 2:42 PM To: knagel@gis.net; vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: Cold Fusion On A Roll? At 12:59 PM 11/18/2004, Keith Nagel wrote: >Hey Fred. > >Indeed, the ~1/2v drop across the cathode face is sufficient to >crush water molecules flat and reduce their permittivity from ~80 >to ~6. Supercaps would be Superdupercaps if not for this effect. >Huge gradients are the norm at such thin interfacial layers. > >K. FWIW, the molecules do not flatten. And the dielectric constant (the real part of the complex permittivity which you mention) is due to inscription of L-D defects in the oxygen lattice. One also observes this change at higher frequencies and in other water Ice phases where the inscription length of the LD defects shortens. Swartz. M., "Dances with Protons - Ferroelectric Inscriptions in Water/Ice Relevant to Cold Fusion and Some Energy Systems", Infinite Energy, 44, (2002). Dr. Mitchell Swartz From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Nov 19 13:42:43 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAJLgYD2023182; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 13:42:34 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAJLgWcr023160; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 13:42:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 13:42:32 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20041119214224.17697.qmail@web81104.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 13:42:24 -0800 (PST) From: Jones Beene Subject: Isn't CF a type of sonofusion on a finer scale? To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56513 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: If anyone is intrigued by sonofusion and how it might relate very specifically to CF, there is a partial answer beginning to take shape involving *spherical convergence* in condensed matter and the kinetics of "excitons." Excitons can be analogized to coincide geometrically with the not-so-imaginary phonon structure of certain types of containment matrices. IOW - given that phonon/exciton "pulsation," becomes another kind of "ultrasound," then it is clear that CF may be another name for sonofusion, but on a much smaller geometric scale. A good *visual* answer as to why LENR can occur at "apparently" low kinetic energy (actually not low, just greatly underestimated) or at least how that low energy can be multiplied enormously in certain physical structures, can be found in a certain applet... I hope your browser will play this simple applet because it rather intuitively demonstrates how waves: In-Waves and Out-Waves - can form a Standing Wave around the Wave-Center 'particle' which is an exciton of about 10-15 microns in diameter - and end-up doing about the same thing that one finds in sonofusion, except the frequency is 10 billion times higher (and as we know, the net energy of waves is proportional to frequency). The applet is near the top of: http://www.spaceandmotion.com/Alternative-Energy-Cold-Fusion.htm This site is maintained by a fellow (from Oz) named Geoff Haselhurst (who I'm surprised has not found this forum yet) and who has this part of his website dedicated to LENR, along with metaphysics and other weird and wonderful ideas. He has essays by Fleischman, Ed Storms and many others there and some relevant info on Milo Wolff... especially on Wolff's "lifelong (slightly obsessive) motivation to find the cause of the de Broglie wavelength of Quantum Theory." The Spherical Wave Structure of Matter are simple equations which can supply answers for the Frequency-Mass-Energy increases with Motion (Grimer and Savvy may not completely agree) An accessible inquiry by Wolff into "The Physical Origin of Electron Spin - using quantum wave particle structure" is also online and worth the time at:   http://www.quantummatter.com/body_spin.html Jones Also found on site are many apt quotations. I share the following sentiment with Henri (except for the slight anachronism of non-PC gender references) "The scientist does not study nature because it is useful; He studies it because he delights in it, and he delights in it because it is beautiful. If nature were not beautiful, it would not be worth knowing, and if nature were not worth knowing, life would not be worth living." --- Jules Henri Poincare From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Nov 19 14:04:19 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAJM4AD2030547; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 14:04:11 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAJM4917030535; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 14:04:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 14:04:09 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <410-22004115192247687@ix.netcom.com> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: aki@ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.0.129.0 (Windows) From: "Akira Kawasaki" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: FW: WHAT'S NEW Friday, November 19, 2004 Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 14:04:07 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: c4cc7f5f697e8746f66dc3a06d5924d8f2119322c2a608ac8bd6e998d67f2ddbac30c6e5e32ee181350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.232.60.21 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56514 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > [Original Message] > From: What's New > To: Akira Kawasaki Date: 11/19/2004 10:39:25 AM Subject: WHAT'S NEW Friday, November 19, 2004 WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 18 Nov 04 Washington, DC 1. PUTIN'S BOMB: A NEW GENERATION OF RUSSIAN NUCLEAR WEAPONS? Maybe the Russian President announced a revolutionary nuclear missile at this time because of sagging moral in the military, or perhaps it was a belated entry for the Excalibur Prize. Putin said it would consist of "systems that other nuclear states do not have and will not have in the immediate years to come." With nothing more than that to go on, some analysts suggest Putin was talking about a ballistic missile capable of evasive action. Russia is thought to have been working on such a missile, but there have been few details, and little money to work with. 2. ANTI-MISSILE LASER: THE CHEMICAL-LASER LOBBY IS BACK AGAIN. Nature.com this week reported uncritically on the test of an infrared chemical laser meant to shoot down launch-phase enemy missiles from a modified 747. Well, the test wasn't exactly airborne; it was in a hangar at Edwards AFB. And they didn't exactly shoot down anything, but one of the contractors said it was "an exceptional achievement." It certainly was for the contractors they've been milking this one for 20 years. In a 1988 book, While Others Build, a former Senate Intelligence Committee staff member, Angelo Codevilla, declared the chemical laser was ready to deploy. This week, an Air Farce contracting officer, Darleen Druyan, pled guilty to channeling billions in contracts to Boeing in exchange for a job offer, and the vaunted anti-missile chemical laser is still a preposterous boondoggle. 3. "THE GOD GENE": NEW BOOK SAYS FAITH IS HARDWIRED IN OUR GENES. Psychology, like just about everything else, has been transformed by the genetics revolution. Dean Hamer, a behavioral geneticist at NCI, has now examined the genetic basis of spirituality in an important book that explains why we're predisposed to believe in God. Evangelicals hate the idea that they are motivated by a trick of brain chemistry. As near as WN can tell "the God gene" is just "the belief gene," in Park's 2000 book, Voodoo Science. The power of the God gene was demonstrated this week when Diana Duyser put a 10-year old grilled cheese sandwich bearing an image of the Virgin Mary up for sale on eBay. It sold for $5,100. 4. MELBA PHILLIPS: SHE WAS, "A MODEL OF A PRINCIPLED SCIENTIST." When I saw in the Washington Post that Melba Phillips had died at 97, I pulled down my copy of Classical Electricity and Magnetism by Panofsky and Phillips. I imagined I could see on its pages stains of my sweat and tears. Said to be a great teacher, I knew her only from that textbook, written while she was unemployed. She had been fired from Brooklyn College for refusing to answer questions from the Senate Internal Security Subcommittee during the McCarthy era. Brooklyn College publicly apologized in 1987, and later held a day-long symposium in her honor and established a scholarship in her name. Awarded the APS Joseph Burton Award last year, she was cited as "a model of a principled scientist." THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND. Opinions are the author's and not necessarily shared by the University of Maryland, but they should be. --- Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.aps.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-whatsnew-49468S@lists.apsmsgs.org To subscribe, send a blank e-mail to: From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Nov 19 14:15:39 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAJMFYqG008221; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 14:15:34 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAJMFWJR008213; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 14:15:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 14:15:32 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20041119221511.006aad98@pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk@pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 22:15:11 +0000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Isn't CF a type of sonofusion on a finer scale? Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56515 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 01:42 pm 19-11-04 -0800, you wrote: >If anyone is intrigued by sonofusion and how it might >relate very specifically to CF, there is a partial >answer beginning to take shape involving *spherical >convergence* in condensed matter and the kinetics of >"excitons." Excitons can be analogized to coincide >geometrically with the not-so-imaginary phonon >structure of certain types of containment matrices. >IOW - given that phonon/exciton "pulsation," becomes >another kind of "ultrasound," then it is clear that >CF may be another name for sonofusion, but on a much >smaller geometric scale. Interestingly enough, I'm pretty sure that it was "excitons" which were found in the cup and cone cavity of mild steel - though how they determined that in a specimen before failure I haven't the slightest idea. 8-( If my memory serves me correctly this ties in with sonofusion and suggests that it is negative Beta-atmosphere pressure that is the critical factor. Grimer From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Nov 19 20:25:02 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAK4Owtn031132; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 20:24:58 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAK4Og6K031048; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 20:24:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 20:24:42 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: A different hydrino catalyst Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 15:24:30 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id iAK4OZtn030962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56516 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi, If microwaves can resonate with a cavity, then perhaps hydrogen atoms can too. 27.2 eV corresponds to a wavelength of 45.589 nm, but multiples of the frequency (i.e. higher values of "m"), would be correspondingly shorter wavelengths, which would also resonate. In short, 45.6 nm cavities might trigger hydrino collapse, where energy is passed to the cavity, iso to another atom during a collision. It may be possible to produce such cavities by sintering finely divided nickel powder made from carbonyl nickel. The size of the cavity might be regulated by the temperature and pressure applied during the sintering process. Being a metal, the sintered product would conduct heat reasonably well, and being made of nickel, it would catalyze the breakup of H2 into H atoms, or might even be used as a cathode in an electrolysis cell. For carbonyl nickel powder see:- http://www.reade.com/Products/Elements/carbonyl_nickel.html http://www.thomasregisterdirectory.com/alloys/nickel_powder_0016180_1.html http://www.nornik.ru/en/production/products_chemical/27/ (smallest .45-.6 micron) Even particles that are too large may still work, if the cavity size is a multiple of the wavelength. So 0.45 micron particles, might still result in many useful cavities. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Nov 20 00:43:30 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAK8hGIp001744; Sat, 20 Nov 2004 00:43:20 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAK8hEPY001735; Sat, 20 Nov 2004 00:43:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 00:43:14 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <410-220041162074159350@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Positronium Anions: Electronium Exists. Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 01:41:59 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9401ec393a4cc6393202d5c4bf86e6f8465350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.177 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56517 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII This Austrian Article points out that Positronium Anions Ps-e- exist. http://pubs.rsc.org/ej/PC/1997/PC093147.pdf http://positron.mpi-stuttgart.mpg.de/messungen/chemie_e.html "The antiparallel orientation of positron spin and electron spin is called para-positronium, the parallel orientation ortho-positronium." Para-Positronim should form the (electron-positron-electron) particle, Electronium which may still be undetected . Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

This Austrian Article points out that Positronium Anions Ps-e- exist.
 

http://positron.mpi-stuttgart.mpg.de/messungen/chemie_e.html

"The antiparallel orientation of positron spin and electron spin is called para-positronium, the parallel orientation ortho-positronium."

Para-Positronim should form the (electron-positron-electron) particle, Electronium

which may still be undetected .

Frederick

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Nov 20 05:49:29 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAKDnO8W029355; Sat, 20 Nov 2004 05:49:24 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAKDnMNY029343; Sat, 20 Nov 2004 05:49:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 05:49:22 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <410-220041162012487810@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Copious Positronium Production on Monolayers Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 06:48:07 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94090f14083acaeab6969f824c166d4f7e9350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.117.217 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56518 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII What do you make of this, Jones? http://prola.aps.org/abstract/PRB/v46/i21/p14178_1 "Positronium production has been assessed when monolayers of O2, N2, and NO have been condensed down to carbon and SiO2 surfaces. Oxygen on graphite was found to have copious Ps atoms found at complete monolayer coverage. The excitation of the 1-eV electronic O2 state enables molecules to absorb excess momentum by recoiling into their neighbors in two dimensions." Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

What do you make of this, Jones?
 

"Positronium production has been assessed when monolayers of O2, N2, and NO have been condensed down to carbon and SiO2 surfaces. Oxygen on graphite was found to have copious Ps atoms found at complete monolayer coverage. The excitation of the 1-eV electronic O2 state enables molecules to absorb excess momentum by recoiling into their neighbors in two dimensions."

Frederick

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Nov 20 09:50:42 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAKHoZDO024387; Sat, 20 Nov 2004 09:50:39 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAKHoXUP024375; Sat, 20 Nov 2004 09:50:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 09:50:33 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20041120175022.85445.qmail@web81104.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 09:50:22 -0800 (PST) From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: Positronium Anions: Electronium Exists. To: fjsparber@earthlink.net, vortex-l In-Reply-To: <410-220041162074159350@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56519 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- Frederick Sparber wrote: > This Austrian Article points out that Positronium > Anions Ps-e- exist. Interesting. It would be tempting to say that this is just the kind of validation which we have been looking for regarding electronium - but on closer inspection... probably not. I think that we always "knew" that a minimally bound Ps ion would "exist" for some (very fleeting) length of time. After all, there is no reason for it not to exist for a few picoseconds... but what we really have been looking for, ultimately, is validation of a longer-lived bound state with *far* more than a fractional eV of binding energy - more like several tens or even a few hundred keV - ...plus an extended lifetime would seem to be a requirement for electronium being the key factor in catalyzing LENR ... ...although... maybe not - if it could be shown that in condensed matter (Pd matrix), a single rare D+D reaction of the QM variety does shed its enthalpy in the form of many of this kind of anion (and that is almost mainstream physics) then those short-lived Ps anions would certainly be available secondarily for an adequate length of time to catalyze many more locally. That is pretty much what we see in the SEMS images, isn't it... i.e. a robust local catastophic event, far more robust than a single fusion, but which doesn't spread very far. IOW an *extremely* rare QM tunneling reaction without any catalyst, to convert one D+D would serve as an "initiation" event leading to a string of other secondary local reactions, catalyzed by the short-lived electronium anion. BTW did Mizuno ever try to estimate how many nuclear reactions would be required to display the kind of tornado type pock-mark seen in those revealing images? ... the search goes on... Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Nov 20 15:20:22 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAKNItuO010983; Sat, 20 Nov 2004 15:20:16 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAKNIXRL010905; Sat, 20 Nov 2004 15:18:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 15:18:33 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20041120231701.67865.qmail@web81102.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 15:17:01 -0800 (PST) From: Jones Beene Subject: WashingtonPost article To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56520 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The headline starts out calling CF "the scientific embarrassment of the century" and quotes the genius, Bob Park "When the August 2004 issue of Popular Mechanics... ran a cover story claiming cold fusion could allow terrorists to build homemade hydrogen bombs, Park derided the magazine and the science. "A nuke? The cold fusion guys can't brew a cup of tea," And what about this company mentioned by McKubre, Energetics Technologies,which has received a millions in private support to research cold fusion and has achieved "startling results" ? http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A5496-2004Nov16.html From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Nov 20 22:54:19 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAL6qcpJ020555; Sat, 20 Nov 2004 22:54:01 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAL6qKem020492; Sat, 20 Nov 2004 22:52:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 22:52:20 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: temalloy@metro.lakes.com (Unverified) Message-Id: Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 00:50:58 -0600 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: resonance Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1161; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: <7Jb3e.A.IAF.ksDoBB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56521 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin Von Sparondonk posted about the resonance of hydrogen atoms. I'm wondering about where he got the numbers. Are there tables in the Handbook which give these frequencies? I'm disappointed that no one responded to my post about the change in the frequency about the tuning fork changing it's frequency of vibration when exposed to the transit of Venus past the Moon when placed a Coral Gables. IMHO, this is very anomalous. The way I look at it, the force on that tuning fork exerted by Venus or Jupiter has to be less than the energy of a fly walking up a wall, by several orders of magnitude. At the meeting of the Minnesota Tesla Society on Saturday we watched a video of Richard Hoagland explain the tetrahedron inside the globe. One of the spots where the tetrahedron intersects the surface of the globe is in Hawaii, which is an upwelling of magma from below. Jupiter has it's Red Stop, which is at the same latitude. I've been reading Chaos by James Gleick. Mandelbrock certainly produced some pretty pictures. I've yet to figure out how he produced them. Now if I can just figure out how they relate to LENR's. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Nov 21 02:04:00 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iALA2TDY023422; Sun, 21 Nov 2004 02:03:53 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iALA2R1j023410; Sun, 21 Nov 2004 02:02:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 02:02:27 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <410-22004110219110350@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Positronium Anions: Electronium Exists. Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 03:01:10 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940c2fdb96f0fb1d824b70e899bcd33ef8f350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.243 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56522 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Jones Beene wrote: > > I think that we always "knew" that a minimally bound > Ps ion would "exist" for some (very fleeting) length > of time. After all, there is no reason for it not to > exist for a few picoseconds... but what we really have > been looking for, ultimately, is validation of a > longer-lived bound state with *far* more than a > fractional eV of binding energy - more like several > tens or even a few hundred keV - > > Based on the disk or current loop model, the fractional eV value for many (*e-) triads is counter-intuitive. The 125 pico-second counter rotation (spin) of a positive-negative positronium pair at near c ("The antiparallel orientation of positron spin and electron spin is called para-positronium, the parallel orientation ortho-positronium.") sets up a strong attractive magnetic force between them. If in this 125 picosecond window before annihilation, another electron with favorable spin joins the group the stable triad is most likely formed. I think the positronium chemistry folks are only seeing the ones that didn't make the grade. http://positron.mpi-stuttgart.mpg.de/messungen/chemie_e.html The "current" ( I ) in each loop/disk = q*c/2(pi)r = 2,720 amperes, thus generating a rather strong ( 1/r^2 or 1/r^4?) magnetic binding force between adjacent loops. The (calculated) 0.327 eV Ps- anion info cited on pages 6 and 7 of this article is qualified speculation. :-) http://pubs.rsc.org/ej/PC/1997/PC093147.pdf Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

Jones Beene wrote:
 
>
> I think that we always "knew" that a minimally bound
> Ps ion would "exist" for some (very fleeting) length
> of time. After all, there is no reason for it not to
> exist for a few picoseconds... but what we really have
> been looking for, ultimately, is validation of a
> longer-lived bound state with *far* more than a
> fractional eV of binding energy - more like several
> tens or even a few hundred keV -
>
>
Based on the disk or current loop model, the fractional eV value for
many (*e-) triads is counter-intuitive.
The 125 pico-second counter rotation (spin) of a positive-negative positronium pair at near c ("The antiparallel orientation of positron spin and electron spin is called para-positronium, the parallel orientation ortho-positronium.") sets up a strong attractive magnetic force between them.
If in this 125 picosecond window before annihilation, another electron with favorable spin joins
the group the stable triad is most likely formed.
 
I think the positronium chemistry folks are only seeing the ones that didn't make the grade.
 
The "current" ( I ) in each loop/disk = q*c/2(pi)r = 2,720 amperes, thus
generating a rather strong  ( 1/r^2 or 1/r^4?) magnetic binding force between adjacent loops.
 
The (calculated) 0.327 eV Ps-  anion info cited on pages 6 and 7 of this article is qualified speculation.   :-)
 
 
Frederick
 
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Nov 21 07:54:23 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iALFquDN012377; Sun, 21 Nov 2004 07:54:16 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iALFqo9L012176; Sun, 21 Nov 2004 07:52:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 07:52:50 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner@mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 06:57:59 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: WashingtonPost article Resent-Message-ID: <9EkG5D.A.M-C.SnLoBB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56523 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 3:17 PM 11/20/4, Jones Beene wrote: >And what about this company mentioned by McKubre, >Energetics Technologies,which has received a millions >in private support to research cold fusion and has >achieved "startling results" ? > >http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A5496-2004Nov16.html Would you please summarize or quote the significant parts of this article? Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Nov 21 11:39:22 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iALJbuTe000803; Sun, 21 Nov 2004 11:39:18 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iALJboMP000760; Sun, 21 Nov 2004 11:37:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 11:37:50 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20041121193622.40284.qmail@web81107.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 11:36:22 -0800 (PST) From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: WashingtonPost article To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56524 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --- Horace Heffner wrote: > Would you please summarize or quote the significant > parts of this article? It appears to have been removed from their site. I guess they only keep these articles online for one week and this was from last Sunday. I was hoping that someone from ICCF11 had a commment about the Israeli company, Energetics Technologies, mentioned in the article, or the presentation by El-Boher, which apparently... at least McKubre thinks is pretty near to having a commercial product. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Nov 21 12:40:34 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iALKcdDN001940; Sun, 21 Nov 2004 12:40:03 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iALKcYsv001900; Sun, 21 Nov 2004 12:38:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 12:38:34 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <004a01c4d009$e1087f10$657ba8c0@peter> From: "P.J van Noorden" To: References: <20041121193622.40284.qmail@web81107.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: WashingtonPost article Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 21:37:11 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Virus-Scanned: by XS4ALL Virus Scanner Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56525 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: For everybody who is interested I have just downloaded the Washington Post article. Greetings Peter van Noorden Warming Up to Cold Fusion Peter Hagelstein is trying to revive hope for a future of clean, inexhaustible, inexpensive energy. Fifteen years after the scientific embarrassment of the century, is this the beginning of something By Sharon Weinberger Sunday, November 21, 2004; Page W22 On a quiet Monday in late August -- a time of year when much of the Washington bureaucracy has gone to the beach -- a panel of scientists gathered at a Doubletree Hotel set between the Congressional Plaza strip mall and a drab concrete office building on Rockville Pike. They sat around a U-shaped table decked with laptops, with three government officials at the front, ready to hear about an idea that, if it worked, could change the world. The panel's charge was simple: to determine whether that idea had even a prayer of a chance at working. The Department of Energy went to great lengths to cloak the meeting from public view. No announcement, no reporters. None of the names of the people attending that day was disclosed. The DOE made sure to inform the panel's members that they were to provide their conclusions individually rather than as a group, which under a loophole in federal law allowed the agency to close the meeting to the public. At 9:30 a.m., six presenters were invited in and instructed to sit in a row of chairs along the wall. The group included a prominent MIT physicist, a Navy researcher and four other scientists from Russia, Italy and the United States. They had waited a long time for this opportunity and, one by one, stood up to speak about a scientific idea they had been pursuing for more than a decade. All the secrecy likely had little to do with national security and more to do with avoiding possible embarrassment to the agency. To some, the meeting would seem no less outrageous than if the DOE honchos had convened for a seance to raise the dead -- and in a way, they had: Fifteen years ago, the DOE held a very similar review of the very same idea. It was front-page news back in 1989. The subject was cold fusion, the claim that nuclear energy could be released at room temperature, using little more than a high school chemistry set. In one of the most infamous episodes of modern science, two chemists at the University of Utah announced at a news conference that they had harnessed the power of the sun in a test tube. It was, if true, the holy grail of energy: pollution-free, cheap and virtually unlimited. If it worked, cold fusion could supply the country's energy needs, with no more smog, no more nuclear waste, no more depending on other countries for oil. For a brief moment, an energy revolution seemed on the horizon. But when many laboratories tried and failed to reproduce the Utah results, scientists began to line up against cold fusion. Less than a year after the announcement, a DOE review found that none of the experiments had demonstrated convincing evidence of cold fusion. Almost as quickly as they had become famous, the scientists involved became the butt of comedians' jokes; they were even lampooned in a Canadian production called "Cold Fusion: The Musical." A Time magazine millennium poll ranked cold fusion among the "worst ideas" of the century. But now, at the Doubletree in Rockville, it seemed all that could change. For the scientists who had risked ostracism to persist in studying cold fusion, the very fact that the Energy Department was reviewing their work this summer seemed like a breakthrough. True, according to two of the presenters who were there, the meeting began with harsh questions. But at 5 p.m., the presenters were ordered to leave the room, and when they returned, the mood had visibly lifted. At the end, the scientists presenting the idea and those reviewing it all shook hands. The reviewers stayed on to discuss the material. The cold fusionists went to a barbecue, feeling celebratory. No one had told them if the presentation had convinced anyone that cold fusion was real. But it was nice, they said, after so many years, just to be treated with respect. "WHERE'S PETER?" It was noon and the sun was shining in California's Bay Area. It was the week before the DOE meeting in Rockville, and at SRI International, a nonprofit research center in Menlo Park, chemist Michael McKubre was gearing up for what he hoped would be cold fusion's big break. He believed that after 15 years, the new DOE review could give him and others a chance to build an energy source that had the potential to revolutionize society. But first he needed to find Peter Hagelstein for a meeting with a reporter. McKubre's secretary poked her head in the office and said she'd ask Jessica, the summer intern. A minute later the secretary was back. No Peter. "Can you call Peter?" he asked. "Tell him to comb his hair and stuff," he added, shaking his head. McKubre checked the time and settled back in his chair. Peter Hagelstein, his longtime friend and colleague in cold fusion, who was spending the summer with McKubre at SRI, works at night and rarely makes it to the lab before noon. "He works himself into a state where he's physically ill," McKubre said. McKubre, on the other hand, was a vision of health. A native New Zealander, McKubre has worked on fuel cells and energy sources for 27 years at SRI, and nearly three decades in the lab haven't faded his tan. At 55, he is bronzed and handsome. An engaging speaker, McKubre loves to talk, and most of what he talks about is cold fusion. March 23, 1989 -- the day Martin Fleischmann and Stanley Pons announced their miraculous discovery -- was a day that McKubre says changed his life. He knew and respected Fleischmann, then one of the world's leading electrochemists, and shortly after the news conference, one of the funders of McKubre's research approached McKubre about performing a small experiment to test cold fusion. When McKubre's initial work showed promise, he says, he began a more ambitious project. Fifteen years later, he's still hooked. McKubre and Hagelstein met in 1990 at the first international cold fusion conference and quickly hit it off. While hundreds of scientists still plow away at cold fusion worldwide, the two of them have emerged as perhaps the most prominent, particularly in the United States. Hagelstein, an applied physicist at MIT, works on theory, while McKubre is a practiced experimentalist. McKubre's staff is well below its all-time high of 12 people -- today, it's just he and a part-time assistant -- but the lab is still well equipped. For years the experiments took place behind bulletproof glass, the result of a 1992 accident that killed one of his colleagues. McKubre still has bits of glass embedded in his side from the cold fusion experiment that exploded that day in his lab (the blast had nothing to do with fusion; hydrogen mixed with oxygen, creating the equivalent of rocket fuel). Normally, nuclear fusion occurs in the sun or in thermonuclear weapons, where intense heat and pressure allow the nuclei of atoms to overcome their natural repulsion and fuse, producing an astounding amount of energy. But fusion takes place at temperatures equivalent to those of the sun -- millions of degrees. So imagine the staggering advance cold fusion would represent, if real. It would mean that fusion could occur at room temperature, potentially making energy production cheap and easy. But even among cold fusion proponents, there is no accepted theory of how this could happen -- one reason why mainstream science has never taken cold fusion seriously. The experiments McKubre ran for 15 years consisted of immersing a metal, palladium, in a bath of heavy water (water where heavier deuterium atoms have replaced lighter hydrogen). Running an electric current through the setup causes the metal to soak up the deuterium, and eventually the deuterium nuclei fuse -- at least according to cold fusionists. McKubre claims that when an experiment works, scientists can measure fleeting bursts of excess heat released in the process -- at times, up to 30 percent more energy comes out than went in. In some experiments, McKubre has detected byproducts, such as helium and tritium, that often accompany nuclear reactions. He says both phenomena are clear proof that fusion has occurred. Since 1989, hundreds of scientists working in dozens of labs around the world have claimed similar results. Supporters point to the written literature -- more than 3,000 papers -- as proof of the effect. But the most credible cold fusion advocates concede that the vast majority of those papers are of poor quality; one supporter called the collection "mixed toxic waste." And even the best research is plagued by cold fusion's most nagging problem: a long history of failing to reproduce experimental results. McKubre is one of the more respected people in the field, and in more than 50,000 hours of experiments, he says, he has recorded 50 times when the setup "unmistakably" produced excess heat. That is a far cry from the scientific standard for reproducibility. Erratic results such as those, coupled with the theoretical unlikelihood of the whole idea, long ago drove most mainstream scientists to dismiss cold fusion; they say that any indication of heat or nuclear byproducts is the result of an error in the experiment. Now few of them take the trouble to review the new results or attend the annual cold fusion conferences. Research money has dried up. The U.S. Patent and Trademark Office has refused to grant a patent on any invention claiming cold fusion. According to Esther Kepplinger, the deputy commissioner of patents, this is for the same reason it wouldn't give one for a perpetual motion machine: It doesn't work. These problems, Hagelstein and McKubre argue, are all tied to the 1989 DOE review. While the report's language was measured, pointing out the lack of experimental evidence, "it was absolutely the intention of most of the framers of that document to kill cold fusion," McKubre says. Pons, who gave up his U.S. citizenship, now lives in France and no longer works on cold fusion, and Fleischmann is retired. Scientists still looking at cold fusion work in a kind of underground. Edmund Storms, a former scientist at the renowned Los Alamos National Laboratory, has set up a cold fusion lab next to his home in Santa Fe, N.M. John Dash, a physicist at Portland State University in Oregon, conducts cold fusion research, but among his academic colleagues, he says, "I'm an outcast, a pariah." According to McKubre, the reason cold fusion experiments can't be reproduced on demand is a materials issue: It's a matter of developing a form of palladium, or another metal, with the right mix of impurities. With help on that issue and more funding, he suggests, a small cold-fusion-powered heater or generator could be ready in as little as two years. If it proved reliable and affordable (a big if: McKubre acknowledges that palladium is too expensive to be used commercially), the applications could expand. He's not afraid to make big claims. "Cold fusion," he writes in an e-mail, "has the potential to replace all sources of energy and power, indefinitely." Yet some cold fusionists have been making the same claims since 1989. The new DOE review could help answer the question of whether they're really any closer now -- and, once again, if there's any validity at all to the idea of cold fusion. PETER HAGELSTEIN FINALLY SHOWED UP AT MCKUBRE'S OFFICE A LITTLE BEFORE 1 P.M., hovering wordless at the back of the room. When he does speak, it's so softly that his Southern California accent is barely audible. With a boyish grin and oversized glasses, he looks like the grownup version of a high school valedictorian. "Brilliant," "genius" and "reclusive" were words used to describe Hagelstein 20 years ago, when he rose to prominence as one of the young scientists behind President Ronald Reagan's plans to build a missile shield in outer space. He made his mark designing the X-ray laser that was to be the centerpiece of Reagan's "Star Wars" anti-ballistic missile system. A protege of Edward Teller, father of the hydrogen bomb, Hagelstein by 1989, at age 35, had a prestigious position at MIT and had been selected as a member of the Jasons, an elite group of scientific advisers to the Defense Department. He was on his way to great things. He was flying out to visit the Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory in California when the news of cold fusion hit in 1989, and he met with Teller and Lowell Wood, another prominent Livermore scientist, the next day. Both men encouraged him to work on cold fusion. (Teller died last year, but Wood continues to support cold fusion and attends the conferences.) Hagelstein did what his mentors suggested, and his career has suffered. "If I had spat on cold fusion back in March 1989, along with everyone else," Hagelstein says, "then I would have funding, I would have had papers published, I would have been successful. Lots of good things would have happened." But he didn't. Why? "Because it wouldn't have been the right thing to do," he says. McKubre and Hagelstein come off as the consummate odd couple of science. McKubre, the optimist; Hagelstein, the pessimist. The charismatic New Zealander, the geeky physicist. McKubre talks about late nights at cold fusion meetings, drinking whiskey with colleagues. Hagelstein doesn't touch anything stronger than lemonade. It's a friendship forged in 15 years of scientific warfare. Hagelstein describes the mainstream scientific community as "mafias" that promote and publish their friends' work, unwilling to accept new ideas. "From time to time there will be wild claims that will be wrong," he says. "Let's accept that, instead of destroying the careers of the folks who either say such things or work on such things. This is a normal part of the process, too." As Hagelstein explains it, leading physicists came out swiftly and prematurely against cold fusion. A prominent physicist at Caltech said Pons and Fleischmann were "suffering from delusions." William Happer, a Princeton professor, called them "incompetent boobs." Just days after the infamous Utah announcement, Hagelstein presented possible theories for cold fusion, and MIT applied for patents on his behalf. Some scientists openly ridiculed his theories. And cold fusion, despite his support, was attacked the next month at a Jasons meeting he attended. Hagelstein remembers Happer, then chairman of the Jasons, telling him to choose between cold fusion and his membership in the group. Hagelstein resigned. Happer says he never told Hagelstein he had to leave the Jasons. "I do remember telling him: 'Look, Peter, why get messed up with this field? It's going to be nothing but a tar baby. You could make a great career in physics.' He didn't want to hear it. "I feel bad about it . . . Peter . . . had a tremendous future ahead of him, I thought," Happer says. "He's still well known, but he could have been a greater man than he is." Hagelstein says his acceptance of cold fusion was by no means immediate. "Sometimes I was pretty sure that it was real, and sometimes I was convinced that it was all junk," he writes in an e-mail. It took several years before he was convinced. "At this point, there are far too many results, of many different types, that constitute an argument that is very strong. There is no going back." Cold fusion has, if nothing else, taught Hagelstein to be flexible. As new experiments emerged, his theories evolved. For almost every strange result, he came up with a new theory for how cold fusion worked. But he has tossed aside almost as many theories as there have been experiments. As cold fusion research limped forward, Hagelstein faced a series of personal reverses. He has tenure at MIT, but he never made full professor. When his funding ran out, he eventually lost his lab space, his secretary, even his office. He has suffered from depression, which he attributes to his experience with cold fusion, but also downplays it. "What's more important," he asks, "me taking a little grief or if, by my actions, I could make a difference in the world?" The SRI summer intern, Jessica, provides her own take on Hagelstein's experience. Jessica, it turns out, is his daughter, a 20-year-old chemistry student at MIT. She was 5 when Pons and Fleischmann hit the covers of Newsweek and Time, and she literally grew up with cold fusion. She describes her father as a gifted pedagogue, popular among his students at MIT and also dedicated to his cold fusion work. She recalls visiting colleges with her father, who would sit down in the library, open his laptop and work on theories, while she toured the campus alone. This consuming passion has left its mark. "My whole life growing up," she says, her father "was always really sad about everything." Hagelstein today remains the best-known name in the cold fusion community. And that's why in April 2003, he wrote directly to Energy Secretary Spencer Abraham to request a new review. By November, the DOE had decided to do it, agreeing that after 15 years it was reasonable to review the progress of work in the field. The August review was limited to a single question, according to McKubre: Is the work surrounding cold fusion legitimate science? A positive answer -- even short of a ringing endorsement -- would finally lift the stigma, McKubre has said. It would also "loosen the purse strings" among potential funders. As of last month, the Department of Energy was saying that the review would be released by the end of the year. THE OFFICES OF THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY, a bastion of mainstream science, take up a corner of the National Press Building in downtown Washington. Amid the myriad foreign news agencies on the 10th floor, Bob Park, director of APS public information, and enemy of cold fusion, writes his weekly column, "What's New." Park's office, not unlike his writing, is filled with strange things. Magazines about aliens lie next to physics textbooks, and next to those, books on electromagnetic healing. Park uses his savage wit to ridicule everything from the international space station and missile defense to alien abduction and cold fusion. His weekly column is distributed, by his rough estimate, to 40,000 subscribers. When the August 2004 issue of Popular Mechanics, the magazine for hobbyists and car enthusiasts, ran a cover story claiming cold fusion could allow terrorists to build homemade hydrogen bombs, Park derided the magazine and the science. "A nuke? The cold fusion guys can't brew a cup of tea," the column teased. Park's reference to tea was a throwback to another cold fusion critic with a humorous edge. Douglas Morrison, a Scottish physicist, was for years the lone critic to attend the annual cold fusion conferences. Every year he would ask the group, "Please can I have a cup of tea?" -- a sardonic way of pointing out that cold fusion had yet to produce even the simplest heating device capable of boiling water. Morrison died in 2001, still without his cup of tea. Park, on the other hand, does not go to the conferences or read the cold fusion literature -- a waste of time, he says. When Park considers a wild idea, his blue eyes focus on some faraway horizon, as if wondering: Could space aliens exist, does Bigfoot roam the forests, could cold fusion be real? When he refocuses, the answer is always no. What unites these things, Park contends, is people who wish to believe the world is some other way than what it is. That, for him, is the essence of cold fusion. "Some of the people who are attached to it are attracted to it because it's under some sort of a cloud," Park says. "I don't want to be unfair to them, but I think that's part of what's going on in their own mind." Another problem, he says, is that the people involved aren't that good. "It gets a lot of people that are marginal," Park says. "There aren't any scientists that are deeply involved in this that I would rank among the upper echelon. . . That's going to sound awful to you, but what the heck." Park corresponds with some cold fusion supporters, including Scott Chubb, a physicist at the Naval Research Laboratory in Washington. Chubb calls Park "a good friend." Park calls Chubb "competent." Park says Hagelstein is an "unusual case," but points to the connection to Teller, who made positive statements about cold fusion early on. "When the master says it's right, it must just be a matter of showing it." And some cold fusion advocates, says Park, are flat-out crazy, undermining whatever respect the field may have. But he did not oppose the DOE review. "I would say they're reviewing it because these guys are now playing by the rules," Park says, citing Chubb and others, who have started to give papers at American Physical Society conferences. The review might even be a good thing, he suggests. "Maybe there is something there, some funny reaction going on." Park pauses, staring off for a moment. "If there is, I'll make another prediction. If there is, it may solve some puzzles, but it won't be important." "Or it may be bad science," he adds. Most nuclear physicists are even more pessimistic about cold fusion. Richard Garwin, 76, is a fellow emeritus at IBM's Watson Research Center and a member of the Jasons. He was on the original DOE review panel, and as a young man did critical design work for Teller's hydrogen bomb. His annoyance with cold fusion is based on visits to various labs. What he finds, in some, are basic mistakes, and in others, the potential for mistakes. "People who can't do a good sophomore experiment are suddenly free to suggest that the discrepancies in their results come from unexplained, basic, earth-shaking, heat-producing phenomena," Garwin gripes in an e-mail about one French lab he visited in 2002. After a 1993 visit to McKubre's lab, Garwin and a fellow scientist wrote a report to the Pentagon, complimenting SRI on its serious and competent work. While Garwin found no huge blunder in McKubre's experiments, he saw a host of possible problems, ranging from false signals in the equipment to simple measurement errors. Asked to summarize his technical report, Garwin replies with a characteristically brief e-mail: "Did not support any finding of 'excess heat.' " As for Hagelstein, Garwin says he isn't interested in reviewing the MIT scientist's theories. A smart theorist can explain anything, even mistakes, Garwin says. And why bother? "There is no sense having a theory if there is nothing to explain." HAGELSTEIN AND MCKUBRE ACKNOWLEDGE THAT COLD FUSION HAS ATTRACTED ITS SHARE OF ODDBALLS. "There are a bunch of people who attend the conferences and have otherwise excellent reputations, who have bought into this so heavily that they've lost their sense of reason or sense of judgment," McKubre says. McKubre often speaks about a company in Israel, Energetics Technologies, that has received a couple of million dollars a year in private support to research cold fusion and has achieved "startling results," producing much higher levels of power and heat than his own experiments. McKubre has visited the lab. "It's the first clear indication that something practical might come out of all this effort," he says. But the scientist behind the Israeli group is Irving Dardik, a former surgeon, who secured funding from Sidney Kimmel, the billionaire head of Jones Apparel Group Inc. Dardik's state medical license was revoked by New York in the mid-1990s after several patients testified to a review committee that he had promised to cure them of multiple sclerosis using "waveform therapy." The review committee found that Dardik had charged ailing patients as much $100,000 for treatment involving little more than exercise and sports watches. Dardik, according to a patent application he submitted, believes that "all things in the universe are composed of" waves, and that those waves are part of larger waves, in what he calls "superlooping." This "superlooping gives rise to and is matter in motion." He has pursued research tying that theory to treating AIDS, Parkinson's disease and depression. The medical board questioned his use of made-up words such as superlooping and speculated openly about his mental health, describing him as "manic." According to the public records of the proceedings, the board ultimately concluded that he was mentally fit but found him guilty of "fraud and exploitation." Dardik says the medical establishment was simply intolerant of alternative science. No longer able to practice medicine, he is now applying his waves theory to cold fusion. Dardik would like, at some point, to get his medical license back in New York, but not now, he says; he's too busy with cold fusion. "I don't even have the time." McKubre and Hagelstein have consulted for Dardik; McKubre has cited Dardik's research to the DOE, now works closely with him and has repeatedly touted the work of Dardik's group. McKubre seems acutely aware of the strangeness that pervades the field, and he handles challenging questions calmly, seeming at times weary of -- and amused by -- some of his more fervent colleagues. But, in this case, it's easy to wonder if his optimism has gotten the better of him. Although he has acknowledged in an e-mail that "Dardik's ideas must sound mad, and . . . adherence to them is not science based," McKubre has continued to talk up the results of the Israeli research; he argues that the experiments themselves work. Yet endorsing the physics experiments of a medical doctor found to have defrauded sick patients is a serious threat to McKubre's reputation. Asked about Dardik's waveforms, McKubre traces waves along the wall with his hand and begins to talk about Dardik's theories of biological rhythms. He pauses, looking a little embarrassed. He acknowledges that, even to a cold fusion supporter such as himself, the theory requires a certain "leap of faith." ALONG WITH THE POSSIBILITY OF FINANCIAL AND SCIENTIFIC REWARDS, the DOE review offers cold fusion scientists the hope of one final prize: moral redemption. While the review was of cold fusion in general, the primary focus was on Hagelstein and McKubre. They chose the material, wrote the review paper and even selected the presenters. Reproducibility remains a nagging issue. While cold fusion proponents now claim better success in re-creating their results from one experiment to the next, Hagelstein acknowledges that their consistency is far from perfect, and some experimental results have never been reproduced. Like McKubre, he holds out the hope that better materials will produce more consistent results down the road. Yet he argues that already there have been enough positive results, from experimentalists he trusts, that at least some of them must be accurate. "I think that things are well past the point that experimental error is a likely possibility," he writes in an e-mail. The scientific method, however, doesn't work that way, Garwin says. As he puts it, it's absurd to claim that experiments that seem to support cold fusion are valid, while those that don't are flawed. Regardless, Hagelstein says, he has seen enough cold fusion data to convince him that the science is clearly real. The field's acceptance, he maintains, will be simply a matter of the scientific community's looking at the improved experimental results in the future and coming to understand them. To McKubre, the main reason cold fusion has been belittled all these years is that the mainstream scientists who dug in their heels long ago can't change their minds now: "If it turns out these people are wrong, they're dead. They're scientifically dead." So, let's say he's right, and the majority of scientists are wrong, and cold fusion does work. What will it take for the critics to accept it? McKubre quotes Max Planck, the father of quantum theory: "Science advances one funeral at a time." Eternally the optimist, McKubre walked out of the SRI building that August day bouncing like a teenager. He was excited about the review: Maybe it would herald a new era, when the DOE would break its stodgy habits and fund alternative energy. With Hagelstein's help, he said, cold fusion had a chance at redemption. In fact, he observed, the stigma around cold fusion was already disappearing. "Cold fusion shows up everywhere," he said. "In comic books, in movies and in songs. It is the standard power generator technology of some cartoon characters. It is a fact." But aren't "facts" like that nothing more than fantasy? "It's a fantasy fact," he said. "That's nearly as good as reality." Sharon Weinberger covers Congress and the military for Defense Daily, a trade publication. > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Nov 21 14:01:06 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iALLxVDN025115; Sun, 21 Nov 2004 14:00:51 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iALLxT4s025059; Sun, 21 Nov 2004 13:59:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 13:59:29 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: WashingtonPost article Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 08:57:59 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <20041121193622.40284.qmail@web81107.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20041121193622.40284.qmail@web81107.mail.yahoo.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id iALLw5DN023829 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56526 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jones Beene's message of Sun, 21 Nov 2004 11:36:22 -0800: Hi, [snip] > >--- Horace Heffner wrote: > >> Would you please summarize or quote the significant >> parts of this article? > > >It appears to have been removed from their site. I >guess they only keep these articles online for one >week and this was from last Sunday. > >I was hoping that someone from ICCF11 had a commment >about the Israeli company, Energetics Technologies, >mentioned in the article, or the presentation by >El-Boher, which apparently... at least McKubre thinks >is pretty near to having a commercial product. I believe the ICCF10 paper that covers this technology can be found at:- http://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/DardikIintensific.pdf Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Nov 21 15:37:44 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iALNaFVm019164; Sun, 21 Nov 2004 15:37:35 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iALNaCRW019144; Sun, 21 Nov 2004 15:36:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 15:36:12 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: resonance Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 10:34:43 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id iALNYnVm018579 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56527 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to thomas malloy's message of Sun, 21 Nov 2004 00:50:58 -0600: Hi, [snip] >Robin Von Sparondonk posted about the resonance of hydrogen atoms. >I'm wondering about where he got the numbers. Are there tables in the >Handbook which give these frequencies? The sizes are related to the wavelength of light with a photon energy of 27.2 eV which is the size of Mills' "energy hole". >I've been reading Chaos by James Gleick. Mandelbrock certainly >produced some pretty pictures. I've yet to figure out how he produced At least I'm not the only one whose name you spell incorrectly. :) Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Nov 21 17:43:02 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAM1fUik029748; Sun, 21 Nov 2004 17:42:55 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAM1fSCg029726; Sun, 21 Nov 2004 17:41:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 17:41:28 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner@mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 16:46:37 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: WashingtonPost article Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56528 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: A big thanks to Mitchell Swartz and P.J van Noorden for posting the article in both HTML and text. This is some of the most exciting reading on the subject in a while. "Maybe there is something there, some funny reaction going on." Park pauses, staring off for a moment. "If there is, I'll make another prediction. If there is, it may solve some puzzles, but it won't be important." My goodness, a momentary crack in the ediface. Park must be experiencing some internal confliction. If there is anything at all to cold fusion it is obviously paradigm shifting. It amuses me now to think last month I enjoyed a blueberry muffin and coffee at the Corner Bakery, located in the Press Club building, oblivious to the fact I was just 9 stories beneath the APS office. Later that day, on a night boat ride down the Potomac, I saw a large dish antenna pointing vertically skyward. It seemed oddly familiar to me and as I squinted carefully into the dark I could see across the top of the building the words "Naval Research Laboratory". It was one of several moving moments for me on that trip. Sometimes the world seems so small. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Nov 21 17:45:08 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAM1hWVm023916; Sun, 21 Nov 2004 17:44:52 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAM1hSgX023894; Sun, 21 Nov 2004 17:43:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 17:43:28 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001b01c4d034$3deaeea0$6701a8c0@mshome.net> From: "revtec" To: References: <20041120231701.67865.qmail@web81102.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: WashingtonPost article Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 20:40:23 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Resent-Message-ID: <-YaUiC.A.R1F._QUoBB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56529 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jones Beene" To: Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2004 6:17 PM Subject: WashingtonPost article " The cold fusion guys can't brew a cup of tea," Cold fusion researchers may measure their net gains in milliwatts, but the hot fusioneers measure their net losses in megawatts! So, who's really closer to success? Jeff From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Nov 21 18:08:22 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAM26sik004277; Sun, 21 Nov 2004 18:08:15 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAM26rv8004262; Sun, 21 Nov 2004 18:06:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 18:06:53 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20041121180756.05710f90@mail.dlsi.net> X-Sender: steven%newenergytimes.com@mail.dlsi.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 18:10:16 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: WashingtonPost article In-Reply-To: <20041121193622.40284.qmail@web81107.mail.yahoo.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56530 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >I was hoping that someone from ICCF11 had a commment >about the Israeli company, Energetics Technologies, >mentioned in the article, or the presentation by >El-Boher, which apparently... at least McKubre thinks >is pretty near to having a commercial product. This "someone" will. I spent quite a bit of time with several of the "ET" folks. I am eager to share what I've learned, but I ask your patience as it will take me a while to transcribe my recordings and compile my report. I expect to have a brief mention of them in my Dec. newsletter and a more complete article on them in Q1-05. Steve From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Nov 21 19:07:22 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAM35dVm011561; Sun, 21 Nov 2004 19:06:59 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAM35Z1F011519; Sun, 21 Nov 2004 19:05:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 19:05:35 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000a01c4d03f$ef412ec0$0100007f@xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Tantalizing/ tillitating Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 21:03:29 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0006_01C4D00D.8D46DBC0"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.5 required=4.0 tests=HTML_20_30,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56531 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C4D00D.8D46DBC0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0007_01C4D00D.8D46DBC0" ------=_NextPart_001_0007_01C4D00D.8D46DBC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankOne need not be a atomic phycisist to enjoy this group. The quest = for CF continues. My work in liquid vortex mechanical technology = continues. It has been our premise that a liquid vortex is dynamically = similar to an atom. My purpose in this post is to mention a test we ran on a high speed = parabolic shaped member. Watching the vortex created by the member, we = witnessed a random interruption of the vortex that caused a type of = "strike" by the vortex against the face of the member. The strike ( = like a cobra striking) caused the entire unit with electric motor to = move on its mounting. However, the event is random and not a regular = event. We have tested more than 2000 shapes of rotating members over 14 = years and this is the first time we have witnessed this event taking = place. The good news is that the event is reproducible, the bad news is = we don't have a clue how to understand the mechanics except that it must = be related to cavitation of a type we have not experienced before. Setting aside the many wild and far out claims of many vortex buffs, = somewhere in the scheme of things there is a relationship between your = work in CF and ours in liquid vortex technology. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0007_01C4D00D.8D46DBC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
One need not be a atomic phycisist to enjoy = this group.=20 The quest for CF continues. My work in liquid vortex mechanical = technology=20 continues. It has been our premise that a liquid vortex is dynamically = similar=20 to an atom.
My purpose in this post is to  mention a = test we=20 ran on a high speed parabolic shaped member. Watching the = vortex=20 created by the member, we witnessed a random interruption of the = vortex=20 that caused a type of "strike"  by the vortex against the face of = the=20 member. The strike ( like a cobra striking) caused the entire unit with = electric=20 motor to move on its mounting. However, the event is random and not a = regular=20 event. We have tested more than 2000 shapes of rotating members over 14 = years=20 and this is the first time we have witnessed this event taking place. = The good=20 news is that the event is reproducible, the bad news is we don't have a = clue how=20 to understand the mechanics except that it must be related to cavitation = of a=20 type we have not experienced before.
 
 
Setting aside the many wild and far out claims = of many=20 vortex buffs, somewhere in the scheme of things there is a relationship = between=20 your work in CF and ours in liquid vortex technology.
 
Richard
------=_NextPart_001_0007_01C4D00D.8D46DBC0-- ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C4D00D.8D46DBC0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000501c4d03f$d7d4efb0$0100007f@xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C4D00D.8D46DBC0-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Nov 21 19:53:47 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAM3qJsq027750; Sun, 21 Nov 2004 19:53:41 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAM3qIVn027730; Sun, 21 Nov 2004 19:52:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 19:52:18 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner@mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 18:57:43 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Tantalizing/ tillitating Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56532 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 9:03 PM 11/21/4, RC Macaulay wrote: [snip] >Setting aside the many wild and far out claims of many vortex buffs,... I'm mystified. Anyone recall any wild or far out claims here lately? 8^) Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Nov 21 20:10:06 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAM48cO0030911; Sun, 21 Nov 2004 20:09:59 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAM48bOj030892; Sun, 21 Nov 2004 20:08:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 20:08:37 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000d01c4d048$be1f46c0$d8037841@xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: References: Subject: Re: Tantalizing/ tillitating Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 22:07:11 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=4.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56533 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace.. I mean't no reference to the vortex-L group, but rather to the many websites on liquid vortex and their magic claims. Richard ----- Original Message ----- From: "Horace Heffner" To: Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2004 9:57 PM Subject: Re: Tantalizing/ tillitating > At 9:03 PM 11/21/4, RC Macaulay wrote: > [snip] >>Setting aside the many wild and far out claims of many vortex buffs,... > > I'm mystified. Anyone recall any wild or far out claims here lately? > 8^) > > Regards, > > Horace Heffner > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Nov 21 21:39:11 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAM5bhNB018082; Sun, 21 Nov 2004 21:39:04 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAM5bfSB018066; Sun, 21 Nov 2004 21:37:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 21:37:41 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner@mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 20:43:08 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Tantalizing/ tillitating Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56534 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:07 PM 11/21/4, RC Macaulay wrote: >Horace.. I mean't no reference to the vortex-L group, but rather to the many >websites on liquid vortex and their magic claims. No need to apologize. It was a joke. The smiley "8^)" indicated a joke. Just my sense of humor. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Nov 22 00:57:24 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAM8tpLN006236; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 00:57:11 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAM8tnpO006226; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 00:55:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 00:55:49 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20041122085404.006ac5dc@pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk@pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 08:54:04 +0000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Tantalizing/ tillitating Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56535 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 09:03 pm 21-11-04 -0600, you wrote: > The good news is that the event is reproducible, That is indeed excellent news. 8-) >the bad news is we don't have a clue how to understand >the mechanics except that it must be related to cavitation >of a type we have not experienced before. Indeed, it may very well be. 8-) >Setting aside the many wild and far out claims of many vortex buffs, >somewhere in the scheme of things there is a relationship between your >work in CF and ours in liquid vortex technology. I agree. I suspect you may be generating a engineering scale pF cavity in the water - a Beta-atmosphere vacuum in the water, in other words. That would certainly cause "the entire unit with electric motor to move on its mounting." And if you are generating a engineering scale pF cavity in the water, you will be the first people in the world able to provide incontrovertible evidence of the conditions necessary for sono-fusion. How does that idea grab you? ;-) If you're interested, I'll upload you our very first published paper on the subject explaining this discovery. I've only got it as .jpeg scan pages so it takes a few minutes to come through. As an engineer you would probably appreciate it - None of that nuculer (sic) malarkey. 8-) Well, almost none, as Gibert might have put it. ;-) Cheers Grimer From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Nov 22 07:29:28 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAMFTN0u030195; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 07:29:23 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAMFTKIZ030187; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 07:29:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 07:29:20 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <410-220041112214284360@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Dardik's Glow Discharge Experiments Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 08:28:04 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9403c2c64bb075a72024257a13d690eb9ac350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.165.134 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56536 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Dardik's Paper covering the glow discharge is reminiscent of the Correa's PAGD. http://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/DardikIintensific.pdf "The Pd surface constitutes one electrode, and a wire in the center of the cell constitutes the other electrode. The central wire(anode for DC) is made of thoriated tungsten. Deuterium gas fills the volume of the cylinder. The pressure of the deuterium gas is in the range 5 to 100 torr before the initiation of the glow discharge." The interesting thing about the setup is the increased electron density and/or electron-deuteron ratio due to ion bombardment of the discharge cell wall (AC or DC operation). This increases the chance for electrons to "run interference" (Electronium or not) during D-D collisions, thus lowering the Repulsive coulomb force F = (Z1+ e) Z2 *kq^2/r^2 = 0. newtons I never could figure why they expect to get anything out of a Tokamak that separates the electrons from the Deuterons/Tritons as they try to get them over the coulomb potential barrier: Z1*Z2 * kq^2/r^2 = 100 newtons ~ 23 pounds at r = 1.5e-15 meters ( 1.5 Fermi). In the Pd-D "Lattice" the electron deuteron ratio is 47:1 and it's probably higher than this in the "nuclear reaction zone of the Sun, not to mention that the Plutonium Trigger of the H-Bomb also substantially increases the Electron-Deuteron Ratio momentarily. :-) Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

Dardik's Paper covering the glow discharge is reminiscent of the Correa's PAGD.
 
 
"The Pd surface constitutes one electrode, and a wire in the center of the cell constitutes the other electrode. The central wire(anode for DC) is made of thoriated tungsten. Deuterium gas fills the volume of the cylinder. The pressure of the deuterium gas is in the range 5 to 100 torr before the initiation of the glow discharge."
 
The interesting thing about the setup is the increased electron density and/or electron-deuteron ratio  due to
ion bombardment of the discharge cell wall (AC or DC operation). This increases the chance for electrons
to "run interference" (Electronium or not) during D-D collisions, thus lowering the  Repulsive coulomb force F = (Z1+ e) Z2 *kq^2/r^2 = 0. newtons
 
I never could figure why they expect to get anything out of a Tokamak that separates the electrons from
the Deuterons/Tritons as they try to get them over the coulomb potential barrier: Z1*Z2 * kq^2/r^2 = 100 newtons
~ 23 pounds at r = 1.5e-15 meters ( 1.5 Fermi).
 
In the Pd-D "Lattice" the electron deuteron ratio is 47:1 and it's probably higher than this
in the "nuclear reaction zone of the Sun, not to mention that the Plutonium Trigger of the H-Bomb
also substantially  increases the Electron-Deuteron Ratio momentarily.     :-)
 
Frederick
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Nov 22 08:48:11 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAMGm50u019676; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 08:48:05 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAMGm2pV019657; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 08:48:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 08:48:02 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner@mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 07:54:39 -0900 To: "vortex-l" From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Dardik's Glow Discharge Experiments Resent-Message-ID: <-MwPJD.A.FzE.ChhoBB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56537 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 8:28 AM 11/22/4, Frederick Sparber wrote: >The interesting thing about the setup is the increased electron density >and/or electron-deuteron ratio due to >ion bombardment of the discharge cell wall (AC or DC operation). This >increases the chance for electrons >to "run interference" (Electronium or not) during D-D collisions, thus >lowering the Repulsive coulomb force F = (Z1+ e) Z2 *kq^2/r^2 = 0. >newtons > >I never could figure why they expect to get anything out of a Tokamak that >separates the electrons from >the Deuterons/Tritons as they try to get them over the coulomb potential >barrier: Z1*Z2 * kq^2/r^2 = 100 newtons >~ 23 pounds at r = 1.5e-15 meters ( 1.5 Fermi). > >In the Pd-D "Lattice" the electron deuteron ratio is 47:1 and it's >probably higher than this >in the "nuclear reaction zone of the Sun, not to mention that the >Plutonium Trigger of the H-Bomb >also substantially increases the Electron-Deuteron Ratio momentarily. :-) It takes more than just electrons to achieve the shielding. It takes electrons of medium energy, energy orders of magnitude above chemical bond energes, as I explained in "THE PARTIAL ORBITAL HYPOTHESIS OF COLD FUSION" thread on s.p.f in October of 1995. I also explained this in more detail here on vortex in 2000, so will just repost that explanation below: - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - At 12:19 PM 7/10/0, John N wrote: > But your thoughts expressed a need for an extra attractive force to >overcome >the natural repulsion, in order to generate an adequate action. There is a need >for >an abnormal force to explain any CF (type) result. [snip arguments based on false assumption] Try a simple Coulombic force calculation. Suppose you have three charges, two D2 nucleii (+) and and electron (-), all in a line in the x axis separated by (an initial) distance of 10^-11 m: d1 d2 (+) (-) (+) v1-> v2-> What is the initial net force on each particle? Further assume the electron has a sufficient velocity that its deBroglie wavelength is unimportant, i.e. that it is a point charge for the sake of this discussion. Further the leftmost deuteron has a velocity v1 relative to d2 which is directed toward d2, and the electron has velocity v2 = v1/2 What happens next? What direction is the initial acceleration provided by the net force on the rightmost deuteron? What direction is the initial acceleration provided by the net force on the leftmost deuteron? > Distortions will never account for the attraction cause, fusion, or the >absence of high energy needs. Tunnelling is a QM artifice that describes the >unexplained, arbitrarily overrides Coulomb's law, and never produces a cause. [snip] Tunneling is necessary to account for the hot fusion rate at a given temperature. It also accounts for the operation of the Josephson Junction and the tunnel diode. Regardless of the "true" nature or explanation for the effect, it exists and is strongly tied to the fusion process. You have to keep in mind that the coulomb barrier can be jumped, and that the distance (d1 + d2 above) at which it is likely to be jumped is comparatively large, i.e. is a separation that can be [overcome] provided a mere ~20 keV initial deturon energy. The question of how CF overcome[s] the Coulomb barrier might be answered by the illustrated process, i.e. electron screening, as proposed early on by Peter Hagelstein and others, I believe. One of the significant problems of maintaining a screen at low energies is the fact that an electron is not a point charge, but is wave-like. I am suggesting that high energies reduce the electron wavelength and at some electron energy, i.e. at around 2-3 keV, the suggested shielding effect comes into play. Pre-alignment of the deuterons all in a row in the lattice may assist in greatly raising the probability of the effect from a single electron, and even help align the electron velocity with the lattice, and even help start a kind of e-fusion-e-fusion chain reaction. There is a source of seed electrons in the form of secondary electrons from cosmic rays. I think there are plenty of arguments against all this, but in my opinion you have not provided them. Most significant is the problem of the (mostly) missing high energy fusion signature. Electron Catalysed Fusion Suppose you have three charges, two deutrium nucleii (+) and and electron (-), all in a line in the x axis separated by (an initial) distance of 10^-11 m: d1 d2 (+) (-) (+) v1-> v2-> What is the initial net force on each particle? The force between the left deuterium nucleus and the electron and is given by F1 = q^2/(4 Pi e0 r^2) = 8.98 N and is to the right towards the electron. The force the two deuterium nucleii is repulsive and is 1/4 the magnitude of the force between the deuterium and the electron because the distance is doubled, i.e. d1 + d2 = 2 d1. So the net force on the left deuteron is 3/4 * 8.98 N = 6.74 N and is to the right. Similarly, the net force on the right deuteron is 6.74 N and is to the left. The net force on the electron balances out to zero. Further assume the electron has a sufficient velocity that its deBroglie wavelength is unimportant, i.e. that it is a point charge for the sake of this discussion. Further the leftmost deuteron has a velocity v1 relative to the rightmost deuteron and which is directed toward it, and the electron has velocity: v2 = v1/2 What happens next? What direction is the initial acceleration provided by the net force on the rightmost deuteron? What direction is the initial acceleration provided by the net force on the leftmost deuteron? If we look at the problem in the reference frame of the electron then the outcome is straightforward. The two deuterons are attracted to the electron equally thus accelerate toward it at the same velocity at every instant. The force is maintained until the wavelengths of the particles overlap and the force diminishes. In the scenario I suggested earlier, the two atoms were maintained at a constant distance by the presence of the electon waveforms already present. The potential of the bond between these electrons and the nucleii is small, less than 30 eV. The impinging 3 keV electron simply blows them TOWARD the deuteron pair, thus INCREASING the NET CHARGE between the two deuterons, and thereby even further increasing the attraction between the two deuterons. A hydrogen atom in D2 has a radius of about 0.32 A, so for this reason it is anticipated the impinging electron's de Broglie wavelength must be less than .32 A. At a larger wavelength, i.e. less energy, dipole moment shielding would occur, preventing a close approach to the nucleus by the electron. At .32 A, and in absence of a magnetic field, the hypothesized effects would begin to be noticed, but a smaller wavelength, e.g. half that size, should produce more significant effects. Now: p=h/L, where p=mv so: mv=h/L, v*(9.11E-31kg)=(6.626E-34 joule*sec)/ (0.32E-10 m), v=2.273E7m/sec. Looking at energy, E= .5mv^2= (.5)(9.11E-31kg)(2.27E7)^2, E=2.353E-16joule/ (1.602 E-19 joule/eV)=1470 eV. So a minimal energy electron to initiate the process should be about 1470 eV, quite a bit to get inside a lattice! This can not be accomplished by temperature alone because 1eV=1.15E4 deg K, so the temperature would be 1470*1.16E4=17,000,000 deg K. Further, making the suggested process likely requires limiting the degrees of freedom. It is only likely to happen in a lattice where the nucleii are all aligned neatly in a row and the impinging electrons are alread channelled or directed by the aligment of the lattice face holes. It is not as likely to happen in a plasma. Also due to the comaparatively large wavelength of the electron, the process can not proceed to completion, i.e. to a completely fused nuclear pair, but it can proceed to bring the nuclei to sufficiently less than 10^-11 m to permit tunneling. The electron's initial wavelength is reduced as it approaches the first deuteron, due to falling into its Coulomb well. The intersting thing about this mechanism is that an electron might end up in new nucleus at a low energy yet not bound into the nucleus by a weak reaction. Perhaps this sets up a radiation process, due to the electron's radiation, whereby the bond kinetic energy of the excited nucleus is transferred to the lattice over a (relatively) long time by low energy radiation. Ultimately, however, the electron should be involved in a weak force reaction. Since the electron did not gain substantial kinetic energy in the suggested fusion process, perhaps the characteristic electron capture gamma is not seen. If the electron sheilded deuteron reaction occurs, it may be of the form: D+ + D+ + e- -> 4He++ + e-* or D+ + D+ + e- -> T+ + H+* + e-* or maybe D+ + D+ + e- -> 4H+ -> 3H+ + n Most of the kinetic energy of the reaction may go temporarily to the electron e-*, which requires about 1 MeV to escape the Coulomb well, and which may dump excess energy into the lattice before escaping the Coulomb well or forming a neutron? "Electron catlysed fusion" may be a good term for the process outlined above. The process is different from electron shielding and muon catalysed fusion to the extent that a medium energy electron is required, having energy an order of magnitude above chemical bond energes. Tunneling is necessary to account for the hot fusion rate at a given temperature. It also accounts for the operation of the Josephson Junction and the tunnel diode. Regardless of the "true" nature or explanation for the effect, it exists and is strongly tied to the fusion process. The coulomb barrier can be jumped, and that the distance (d1 + d2 above) at which it is likely to be jumped is comparatively large, i.e. is a separation that can be provided a mere ~20 keV initial deturon energy. The question of how CF overcomes the Coulomb barrier might be answered by the fact the illustrated process, or by lower energy electron screening, as proposed early on by Peter Hagelstein and others, I believe. One of the significant problems of maintaining a screen at low energies is the fact that an electron is not a point charge, but is wave-like. I am suggesting that high energies reduce the electron wavelength and at some electron energy, i.e. at around 2-3 keV, the suggested electron catalysis shielding effect comes into play. Pre-alignment of the deuterons all in a row in the lattice may assist in greatly raising the probability of the effect from a single electron, and even help align the electron velocity with the lattice, and even help start a kind of e-fusion-e-fusion chain reaction. There is a source of seed electrons in the form of secondary electrons from cosmic rays. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - At 5:32 PM 7/11/0, Jones Beene wrote: >Horace Heffner wrote: > >> If the electron sheilded deuteron reaction occurs, it may be of the form: >> D+ + D+ + e- -> 4He++ + e-* or >> D+ + D+ + e- -> T+ + H+* + e-* or maybe >> D+ + D+ + e- -> 4H+ -> 3H+ + n >> >> Most of the kinetic energy of the reaction may go temporarily to the >> electron e-*, which requires about 1 MeV to escape the Coulomb well, and >> which may dump excess energy into the lattice before escaping the Coulomb >> well or forming a neutron? > >Hi Horace, > >One question: In the last two reactions, what is the mechanism for shifting >the multi-mev energy from the fused nuclei to the electron ? and also, >wouldn't an expelled electron with ~1 mev of excess energy leave an >unmistakable gamma signature? The expelling of an electron from a doubly charged nucleus REMOVES an extra 1 MeV. That's a pretty good start. My speculation is that an unbound electron in the nucleus represents an oscillating dipole, and thus radiates. Perhaps the nature of the radiation is such that it couples with adjacent nuclei and thereby dumps the energy very slowly (compared to a MeV magnitude gamma release). In the example, the electron has no initial kinetic energy with respect to the formed nucleus. Kinetic energy transfer would come from oscillating or circular motion around the nucleus after a close range miss, thus transferring energy from the nucleus to the electron, in "slingshot" fashion. In the case of electron capture to make for a 4H+ nulceus, the electron did not "fall into the well" as it does in a K shell capture, so perhaps the electron capture radiation would be less and different in nature. I would think the neutron emission would be detected, however, so this may be a very low brobability reaction? > >This second part of this post goes a bit further than your hypothetical >basis for LENR reactions into an issue that probably has crossed through the >back of a few minds on this forum, even if they are not ordinarily >conspiracy theorists. > >In a nutshell it goes something like this: If you assume that CF is a real >electrochemical phenomenon, albeit a low probability one, then what would be >the limiting mechanism that would keep it from being exploited in a more >energetic situation? simply its low probability? > >Some time ago, in response to a question about the various possible >rationales for what appears to be the "official" snubbing of CF at the >highest levels, I suggested that some of the problem goes back to issues >involving "nonproliferation," and more specifically the possibility of a >"pure fusion" weapon (no fission trigger). This suggestion didn't generate >much response at the time. What a refreshing problem, TOO MUCH concern about CF! I think to those who have actually tried to obtain the effect, who are "in the know" somewhat technically, it is hard to fathom concern about obtaining explosive rates of reaction. On the other hand, personification of the DOE as if it were a single mind or of a single mindset is flawed. DOE is comprised of a large number of people that therefore represent a large number of points of view, so I suppose group culture clearly can not suppress all of that. I would argue that explosive fusion is hot fusion, and hot fusion is an area of open publication. An explosion destroys the very special environment that makes cold fusion possible, and thereby makes it a hot fusion problem from then on. I see publication of CF research as far less of a threat than publication of hot fusion research. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Nov 22 08:56:26 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAMGuI0u023558; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 08:56:18 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAMGuHio023543; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 08:56:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 08:56:17 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20041122165609.80555.qmail@web81103.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 08:56:09 -0800 (PST) From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: Dardik's Glow Discharge Experiments To: vortex-l In-Reply-To: <410-220041112214284360@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56538 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- Frederick Sparber wrote: > Dardik's Paper covering the glow discharge is > reminiscent of the Correa's PAGD. > http://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/DardikIintensific.pdf > "The Pd surface constitutes one electrode, and a > wire in the center of the cell constitutes the other > electrode.... Deuterium gas fills the volume > of the cylinder. The pressure of the deuterium gas > is in the range 5 to 100 torr " Coincidentally, this might also point the way to a direct conversion method. Check out the CWC on this page: http://jre.cplire.ru/jre/sep99/1/text.html Which is really another type of "Cuccia coupler". Cuccia couplers work by coupling photons to electrons at great efficiency. It will operate with a deuterium fill of 5 torr (but one must use a "current limited" PS as conductivity would be greatly increased with a plasma fill). Imagine the device in Fig.1 on the above referenced site filled with a little deuterium, or... better yet, a D2+He mixture would most likely give superior results. Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Nov 22 10:18:26 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAMIIFLN022191; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 10:18:15 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAMIICG1022163; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 10:18:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 10:18:12 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <410-220041112217165270@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Dardik's Glow Discharge Experiments Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 11:16:52 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940cde376e5db14534a7ca1166ac81eeccf350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.220 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56539 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Nice going, Horace. Let's argue. :-) Going by my work starting in the mid 1980's (accepted as presented to the science staff at PNL in May of 1989) the electron seems to be a circle or disk with a radius R = kq^2/E = 2.81e-15 meters, with a Compton wavelength h/mc = 3.86e-13 meters . In any case this "loop" is enormous wrt the proton or deuteron "quark circle stack" radius of ~ 4.86e-18 meters, with a local B field in excess of 2.15e17 Tesla on it's axis dropping of to 1.5e-4 Tesla at the 5.3e-11 meter Bohr radius (which seems to shield it against close approach by the electron "loop" and it's 6.0e11 Tesla B field that drops to 0.09 Tesla at the 5.3e-11 meter Bohr radius. Some literature claims the K shell electrons can have velocities in the KeV range in materials at room temperature. Frederick Horace Heffner wrote: > > At 8:28 AM 11/22/4, Frederick Sparber wrote: > > >The interesting thing about the setup is the increased electron density > >and/or electron-deuteron ratio due to > >ion bombardment of the discharge cell wall (AC or DC operation). This > >increases the chance for electrons > >to "run interference" (Electronium or not) during D-D collisions, thus > >lowering the Repulsive coulomb force F = (Z1+ e) Z2 *kq^2/r^2 = 0. > >newtons > > > >I never could figure why they expect to get anything out of a Tokamak that > >separates the electrons from > >the Deuterons/Tritons as they try to get them over the coulomb potential > >barrier: Z1*Z2 * kq^2/r^2 = 100 newtons > >~ 23 pounds at r = 1.5e-15 meters ( 1.5 Fermi). > > > >In the Pd-D "Lattice" the electron deuteron ratio is 47:1 and it's > >probably higher than this > >in the "nuclear reaction zone of the Sun, not to mention that the > >Plutonium Trigger of the H-Bomb > >also substantially increases the Electron-Deuteron Ratio momentarily. :-) > > > It takes more than just electrons to achieve the shielding. It takes > electrons of medium energy, energy orders of magnitude above chemical bond > energes, as I explained in "THE PARTIAL ORBITAL HYPOTHESIS OF COLD FUSION" > thread on s.p.f in October of 1995. I also explained this in more detail > here on vortex in 2000, so will just repost that explanation below: > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > At 12:19 PM 7/10/0, John N wrote: > > > But your thoughts expressed a need for an extra attractive force to > >overcome > >the natural repulsion, in order to generate an adequate action. There is a need > >for > >an abnormal force to explain any CF (type) result. > [snip arguments based on false assumption] > > > Try a simple Coulombic force calculation. Suppose you have three charges, > two D2 nucleii (+) and and electron (-), all in a line in the x axis > separated by (an initial) distance of 10^-11 m: > > > d1 d2 > (+) (-) (+) > > v1-> v2-> > > > What is the initial net force on each particle? > > > Further assume the electron has a sufficient velocity that its deBroglie > wavelength is unimportant, i.e. that it is a point charge for the sake of > this discussion. Further the leftmost deuteron has a velocity v1 relative > to d2 which is directed toward d2, and the electron has velocity > > v2 = v1/2 > > What happens next? What direction is the initial acceleration provided by > the net force on the rightmost deuteron? What direction is the initial > acceleration provided by the net force on the leftmost deuteron? > > > > > Distortions will never account for the attraction cause, fusion, or the > >absence of high energy needs. Tunnelling is a QM artifice that describes the > >unexplained, arbitrarily overrides Coulomb's law, and never produces a cause. > [snip] > > > Tunneling is necessary to account for the hot fusion rate at a given > temperature. It also accounts for the operation of the Josephson Junction > and the tunnel diode. Regardless of the "true" nature or explanation for > the effect, it exists and is strongly tied to the fusion process. > > You have to keep in mind that the coulomb barrier can be jumped, and that > the distance (d1 + d2 above) at which it is likely to be jumped is > comparatively large, i.e. is a separation that can be [overcome] provided a > mere ~20 keV initial deturon energy. The question of how CF overcome[s] > the Coulomb barrier might be answered by the illustrated process, i.e. > electron screening, as proposed early on by Peter Hagelstein and others, I > believe. > > One of the significant problems of maintaining a screen at low energies is > the fact that an electron is not a point charge, but is wave-like. I am > suggesting that high energies reduce the electron wavelength and at some > electron energy, i.e. at around 2-3 keV, the suggested shielding effect > comes into play. Pre-alignment of the deuterons all in a row in the > lattice may assist in greatly raising the probability of the effect from a > single electron, and even help align the electron velocity with the > lattice, and even help start a kind of e-fusion-e-fusion chain reaction. > There is a source of seed electrons in the form of secondary electrons from > cosmic rays. > > I think there are plenty of arguments against all this, but in my opinion > you have not provided them. Most significant is the problem of the > (mostly) missing high energy fusion signature. > > > > Electron Catalysed Fusion > > > > Suppose you have three charges, two deutrium nucleii (+) and and electron > (-), all in a line in the x axis separated by (an initial) distance of > 10^-11 m: > > > d1 d2 > (+) (-) (+) > > v1-> v2-> > > > What is the initial net force on each particle? The force between the left > deuterium nucleus and the electron and is given by > > F1 = q^2/(4 Pi e0 r^2) = 8.98 N > > and is to the right towards the electron. The force the two deuterium > nucleii is repulsive and is 1/4 the magnitude of the force between the > deuterium and the electron because the distance is doubled, i.e. d1 + d2 = > 2 d1. So the net force on the left deuteron is 3/4 * 8.98 N = 6.74 N and > is to the right. Similarly, the net force on the right deuteron is 6.74 N > and is to the left. The net force on the electron balances out to zero. > > Further assume the electron has a sufficient velocity that its deBroglie > wavelength is unimportant, i.e. that it is a point charge for the sake of > this discussion. Further the leftmost deuteron has a velocity v1 relative > to the rightmost deuteron and which is directed toward it, and the electron > has velocity: > > v2 = v1/2 > > What happens next? What direction is the initial acceleration provided by > the net force on the rightmost deuteron? What direction is the initial > acceleration provided by the net force on the leftmost deuteron? > > If we look at the problem in the reference frame of the electron then the > outcome is straightforward. The two deuterons are attracted to the > electron equally thus accelerate toward it at the same velocity at every > instant. The force is maintained until the wavelengths of the particles > overlap and the force diminishes. > > In the scenario I suggested earlier, the two atoms were maintained at a > constant distance by the presence of the electon waveforms already present. > The potential of the bond between these electrons and the nucleii is > small, less than 30 eV. The impinging 3 keV electron simply blows them > TOWARD the deuteron pair, thus INCREASING the NET CHARGE between the two > deuterons, and thereby even further increasing the attraction between the > two deuterons. > > A hydrogen atom in D2 has a radius of about 0.32 A, so for this reason it > is anticipated the impinging electron's de Broglie wavelength must be less > than .32 A. At a larger wavelength, i.e. less energy, dipole moment > shielding would occur, preventing a close approach to the nucleus by the > electron. At .32 A, and in absence of a magnetic field, the hypothesized > effects would begin to be noticed, but a smaller wavelength, e.g. half that > size, should produce more significant effects. > > Now: p=h/L, where p=mv so: mv=h/L, v*(9.11E-31kg)=(6.626E-34 joule*sec)/ > (0.32E-10 m), v=2.273E7m/sec. Looking at energy, E= .5mv^2= > (.5)(9.11E-31kg)(2.27E7)^2, E=2.353E-16joule/ (1.602 E-19 joule/eV)=1470 > eV. So a minimal energy electron to initiate the process should be about > 1470 eV, quite a bit to get inside a lattice! This can not be accomplished > by temperature alone because 1eV=1.15E4 deg K, so the temperature would be > 1470*1.16E4=17,000,000 deg K. Further, making the suggested process > likely requires limiting the degrees of freedom. It is only likely to > happen in a lattice where the nucleii are all aligned neatly in a row and > the impinging electrons are alread channelled or directed by the aligment > of the lattice face holes. It is not as likely to happen in a plasma. > Also due to the comaparatively large wavelength of the electron, the > process can not proceed to completion, i.e. to a completely fused nuclear > pair, but it can proceed to bring the nuclei to sufficiently less than > 10^-11 m to permit tunneling. The electron's initial wavelength is reduced > as it approaches the first deuteron, due to falling into its Coulomb well. > > > The intersting thing about this mechanism is that an electron might end up > in new nucleus at a low energy yet not bound into the nucleus by a weak > reaction. Perhaps this sets up a radiation process, due to the electron's > radiation, whereby the bond kinetic energy of the excited nucleus is > transferred to the lattice over a (relatively) long time by low energy > radiation. Ultimately, however, the electron should be involved in a weak > force reaction. Since the electron did not gain substantial kinetic energy > in the suggested fusion process, perhaps the characteristic electron > capture gamma is not seen. > > If the electron sheilded deuteron reaction occurs, it may be of the form: > > D+ + D+ + e- -> 4He++ + e-* > > or > > D+ + D+ + e- -> T+ + H+* + e-* > > or maybe > > D+ + D+ + e- -> 4H+ -> 3H+ + n > > Most of the kinetic energy of the reaction may go temporarily to the > electron e-*, which requires about 1 MeV to escape the Coulomb well, and > which may dump excess energy into the lattice before escaping the Coulomb > well or forming a neutron? > > "Electron catlysed fusion" may be a good term for the process outlined > above. The process is different from electron shielding and muon catalysed > fusion to the extent that a medium energy electron is required, having > energy an order of magnitude above chemical bond energes. > > Tunneling is necessary to account for the hot fusion rate at a given > temperature. It also accounts for the operation of the Josephson Junction > and the tunnel diode. Regardless of the "true" nature or explanation for > the effect, it exists and is strongly tied to the fusion process. The > coulomb barrier can be jumped, and that the distance (d1 + d2 above) at > which it is likely to be jumped is comparatively large, i.e. is a > separation that can be provided a mere ~20 keV initial deturon energy. The > question of how CF overcomes the Coulomb barrier might be answered by the > fact the illustrated process, or by lower energy electron screening, as > proposed early on by Peter Hagelstein and others, I believe. > > One of the significant problems of maintaining a screen at low energies is > the fact that an electron is not a point charge, but is wave-like. I am > suggesting that high energies reduce the electron wavelength and at some > electron energy, i.e. at around 2-3 keV, the suggested electron catalysis > shielding effect comes into play. Pre-alignment of the deuterons all in a > row in the lattice may assist in greatly raising the probability of the > effect from a single electron, and even help align the electron velocity > with the lattice, and even help start a kind of e-fusion-e-fusion chain > reaction. There is a source of seed electrons in the form of secondary > electrons from cosmic rays. > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > > > At 5:32 PM 7/11/0, Jones Beene wrote: > >Horace Heffner wrote: > > > >> If the electron sheilded deuteron reaction occurs, it may be of the form: > >> D+ + D+ + e- -> 4He++ + e-* or > >> D+ + D+ + e- -> T+ + H+* + e-* or maybe > >> D+ + D+ + e- -> 4H+ -> 3H+ + n > >> > >> Most of the kinetic energy of the reaction may go temporarily to the > >> electron e-*, which requires about 1 MeV to escape the Coulomb well, and > >> which may dump excess energy into the lattice before escaping the Coulomb > >> well or forming a neutron? > > > >Hi Horace, > > > >One question: In the last two reactions, what is the mechanism for shifting > >the multi-mev energy from the fused nuclei to the electron ? and also, > >wouldn't an expelled electron with ~1 mev of excess energy leave an > >unmistakable gamma signature? > > > The expelling of an electron from a doubly charged nucleus REMOVES an extra > 1 MeV. That's a pretty good start. My speculation is that an unbound > electron in the nucleus represents an oscillating dipole, and thus > radiates. Perhaps the nature of the radiation is such that it couples with > adjacent nuclei and thereby dumps the energy very slowly (compared to a MeV > magnitude gamma release). In the example, the electron has no initial > kinetic energy with respect to the formed nucleus. Kinetic energy transfer > would come from oscillating or circular motion around the nucleus after a > close range miss, thus transferring energy from the nucleus to the > electron, in "slingshot" fashion. In the case of electron capture to make > for a 4H+ nulceus, the electron did not "fall into the well" as it does in > a K shell capture, so perhaps the electron capture radiation would be less > and different in nature. I would think the neutron emission would be > detected, however, so this may be a very low brobability reaction? > > > > > >This second part of this post goes a bit further than your hypothetical > >basis for LENR reactions into an issue that probably has crossed through the > >back of a few minds on this forum, even if they are not ordinarily > >conspiracy theorists. > > > >In a nutshell it goes something like this: If you assume that CF is a real > >electrochemical phenomenon, albeit a low probability one, then what would be > >the limiting mechanism that would keep it from being exploited in a more > >energetic situation? simply its low probability? > > > >Some time ago, in response to a question about the various possible > >rationales for what appears to be the "official" snubbing of CF at the > >highest levels, I suggested that some of the problem goes back to issues > >involving "nonproliferation," and more specifically the possibility of a > >"pure fusion" weapon (no fission trigger). This suggestion didn't generate > >much response at the time. > > > > What a refreshing problem, TOO MUCH concern about CF! I think to those who > have actually tried to obtain the effect, who are "in the know" somewhat > technically, it is hard to fathom concern about obtaining explosive rates > of reaction. On the other hand, personification of the DOE as if it were a > single mind or of a single mindset is flawed. DOE is comprised of a large > number of people that therefore represent a large number of points of view, > so I suppose group culture clearly can not suppress all of that. I would > argue that explosive fusion is hot fusion, and hot fusion is an area of > open publication. An explosion destroys the very special environment that > makes cold fusion possible, and thereby makes it a hot fusion problem from > then on. I see publication of CF research as far less of a threat than > publication of hot fusion research. > > Regards, > > Horace Heffner > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Nov 22 16:49:19 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAN0nDBI016469; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 16:49:13 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAN0n8cJ016437; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 16:49:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 16:49:08 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner@mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 15:55:50 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Dardik's Glow Discharge Experiments Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56540 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:16 AM 11/22/4, Frederick Sparber wrote: >Nice going, Horace. Let's argue. :-) > To argue sensibly we would have to agree on some premises and that looks very difficult in this arena. >Going by my work starting in the mid 1980's (accepted as presented to the >science staff at PNL in May of 1989) the electron seems to be a circle or >disk with a radius R = kq^2/E = 2.81e-15 meters, with a Compton wavelength >h/mc = 3.86e-13 meters . It appears you have no concerns about discarding quantum mechanics. 8^) The above sounds like a Newtonian world hypothesis requiring some extraordinary proof. You seem to think orbital electrons actually have a position, like planets orbiting the sun. >In any case this "loop" is enormous wrt the proton >or deuteron "quark circle stack" radius of ~ 4.86e-18 meters, with a local >B field in excess of 2.15e17 Tesla on it's axis dropping of to 1.5e-4 >Tesla >at the 5.3e-11 meter Bohr radius (which seems to shield it against close >approach by the electron "loop" and it's 6.0e11 Tesla B field that drops to >0.09 Tesla at the 5.3e-11 meter Bohr radius. You seem to be ignoring the fact the electron can be smaller than a quark, and in fact has a wavelength obeying deBroglie's lambda = h/p for lambda down to quark size. Lots of stuff about this from the Stanford Linear Accelerator (SLAC) group. > >Some literature claims the K shell electrons can have velocities in the KeV >range in materials at room temperature. Like the CRC Handbook for instance. That is certainly right - K shell electrons carry that kind of energy and corresponding momentum in orbitals in large atoms. Still, K shell electrons are not like free electrons, their orbital quantum wavefunction provides too small a probability of the electron to be in the nucleus long enough for a weak reaction except in unusual circumstances, and the K shell electrons it seems to me would improbably provide sufficient shielding for a small charge nulceus to enter a large nucleus - even if it had enough energy to scatter and get past the outer shell electrons. The problem is the age old "where is the electron." However, you seem to be talking apples while I'm talking ghosts. We are in this case I think just going to be talking past each other and not to each other. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Nov 22 21:39:34 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAN5dRBI023567; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 21:39:31 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAN5dKlq023540; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 21:39:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 21:39:20 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <410-220041122353837240@ix.netcom.com> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: aki@ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.1.47.0 (Windows) From: "Akira Kawasaki" To: "vortex-l" Subject: re: Washinton Post article Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 21:38:37 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: c4cc7f5f697e8746f66dc3a06d5924d80026b423f1096162ff1b1c5e4e011fef2601a10902912494350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.232.6.153 Resent-Message-ID: <88yURD.A.wvF.H0soBB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56541 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII November 21, 2004 Vortex, Thanks to P. J van Noorden for posting the most interesting article Jones referred to but too late to access online. Mr. Irving Dardik made an oral presentation at the ICCF-11on Thursday November 04, 2004. His title was "The Super Wave Principle". He represented Energetics Technologies at the Conference. The Participant's List, as sent after the Conference, lists six other people from Energetics Technologies Ltd. Energetics was noticed from the 8th ICCF (YR. 2,000), perhaps even earlier as they were inquiring around among the Participants with presentations. No doubt some were consulted as their laboratory was developed (in Israel) to probe into the many approaches to the CF effect. Biberian and Josephson provided the ICCF-11 Participant's List a few days ago. In it, participants from Energetics are listed. U.S. Energetics.LLC. 7 Fieldview Lane Califon, N.J. (908) 439-9500 1. Dardik, Irving irv@energetics.us ISRAEL Energetics Technologies Ltd. Industrial Park 84965 Omer Israel 972-8-6901114 2. El-Boher, DR. Arik ank@energetics.co.il 3. Katchturov, Dr. Boris kachat@energetics.co.il 4. Krakov, Dr. Vitaly ykrakov@energetics.co.il 5. Lesin Dr. Shaul lesin@energetics.co.il 6.Tsirlin, Dr. Tsirlin, Dr. Mark mark@energetics.co.il 7. Zilov, Tanya tanya@energetics.co.il It looks like the Israel based laboratory is staffed mostly from scientists from the former Soviet Union. Excess nuclear specialists? Just a guess. It feels like Energetics has Israel's blessing, albeit "underground". The Washington Post mentions the SRI death incident as due to a Hydrogen-Oxygen explosion accident . I believe it was reported as a loaded palladium explosion incident when reported shortly after the incident. Fleischmann (& Pons?) issued an advisory to use small Pd samples in loading experiments around the time of the accident. The article also failed to mention a large explosion which wiped out part of Fleischmann & Pons' private laboratory before 1989 in Utah(?). They were doing an overnight electrolysis Pd loading experiment. Nobody was there when it happened. It was found out the next morning. Eugene Mallove was aware of all of this. Then there is the Mizuno incident (as translated by Rothwell) with a large Pd sample starting to heat up by itself after an loading experiment. -ak- ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
November 21, 2004
 
 Vortex,
 
Thanks to P. J van Noorden for posting the most interesting article Jones referred to but  too late to access online.
Mr. Irving Dardik made an oral presentation at the ICCF-11on Thursday November 04, 2004. His title was "The Super Wave Principle". He represented Energetics Technologies at the Conference. The Participant's List, as sent after the Conference, lists six other people from Energetics Technologies Ltd.
Energetics was noticed from the 8th ICCF (YR. 2,000), perhaps even earlier as they were inquiring around among the Participants with presentations. No doubt some were consulted as their laboratory was developed (in Israel) to probe into the many approaches to the CF effect.
Biberian and Josephson provided the ICCF-11 Participant's List a few days ago. In it, participants from Energetics are listed.
 U.S.
Energetics.LLC.
7 Fieldview Lane
Califon, N.J.
(908) 439-9500
 
1. Dardik, Irving
 
ISRAEL 
Energetics Technologies Ltd.
Industrial Park
84965 Omer
Israel
972-8-6901114
 
2. El-Boher, DR. Arik
 
3. Katchturov, Dr. Boris
 
4. Krakov, Dr. Vitaly
 
5. Lesin Dr. Shaul
 
6.Tsirlin, Dr. Tsirlin, Dr. Mark
 
 
7. Zilov, Tanya
 
It looks like the Israel based laboratory is staffed mostly from scientists from the former Soviet Union. Excess nuclear specialists? Just a guess. It feels like Energetics has Israel's blessing, albeit "underground".
 
The Washington Post mentions the SRI death incident as due to a Hydrogen-Oxygen explosion accident . I believe it was reported as a loaded palladium explosion incident when reported shortly after the incident. Fleischmann (& Pons?) issued an advisory to use small Pd samples in loading experiments around the time of the accident. The article also failed to mention a large explosion which wiped out part of Fleischmann & Pons' private laboratory  before 1989 in Utah(?).  They were doing an overnight electrolysis Pd loading experiment. Nobody was there when it happened. It was found out the next morning. Eugene Mallove was aware of all of this. Then there is the  Mizuno incident (as translated by Rothwell) with a large Pd sample starting to heat up by itself after an loading experiment.    
 
-ak-
 
 
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Nov 23 06:56:19 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iANEuF90016933; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 06:56:16 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iANEu0l6016704; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 06:56:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 06:56:00 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001501c4d16c$846e49b0$f3027841@xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: Washington Post article Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 08:55:07 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0011_01C4D13A.21E439D0"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.5 required=4.0 tests=HTML_40_50,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56542 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C4D13A.21E439D0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0012_01C4D13A.21E439D0" ------=_NextPart_001_0012_01C4D13A.21E439D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankIsreali science community and their Russian connections.. hmmm ! In marketing , it's described as competition In Hollywood, it's called artistic liscense In literature , it's called plagerism In patents. it's called infringement In Civil Rights. it's called discrimination In USA Universities. it's called publishing In national security. it's called spying In Wall Street. it's called value In crime. it's called illegal In China. it's called knockoffs In Isreal. it's called technology transfer Don't you love the English language where you can tell the truth 9 = different ways without lying ------=_NextPart_001_0012_01C4D13A.21E439D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Isreali science community and their Russian=20 connections.. hmmm !
 
In marketing , it's described as=20 competition
In Hollywood, it's called artistic = liscense
 
In literature , it's called = plagerism
In patents. it's called = infringement
 
In Civil Rights. it's called = discrimination
 
In USA Universities. it's called = publishing
 
In national security. it's called = spying
 
In Wall Street. it's called value
 
In crime. it's called illegal
 
In China. it's called knockoffs
 
In Isreal. it's called technology = transfer
 
Don't you love the English language where you = can tell=20 the truth 9 different ways without lying

 

------=_NextPart_001_0012_01C4D13A.21E439D0-- ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C4D13A.21E439D0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <001001c4d16c$6c788f50$f3027841@xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C4D13A.21E439D0-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Nov 23 07:19:31 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iANFJP90025691; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 07:19:25 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iANFJN7N025671; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 07:19:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 07:19:23 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <410-220041122314186820@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Electrolysis of Lithium Hydride Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 08:18:06 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9404fd76197b6e209378d4a5fe4f4e34d17350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.162.245 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56543 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII If you like playing with rattlesnakes, Lithium Hydride melts at 680 C and with electrolysis liberates Hydrogen at the anode. http://www.espi-metals.com/msds's/Lithium%20Hydride.htm http://www.ucc.ie/ucc/depts/chem/dolchem/html/elem/elem001.html "For example, on the electrolysis of fused lithium hydride, the hydrogen is liberated at the positive electrode (i.e. a negatively charged hydrogen ion is discharged), and not the negative electrode as is the case when water is electrolysed." A metal can pressurized with argon perhaps? Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

If you like playing with rattlesnakes, Lithium Hydride melts at 680 C and
with electrolysis liberates Hydrogen at the anode.
 
 
 
 

"For example, on the electrolysis of fused lithium hydride, the hydrogen is liberated at the positive electrode (i.e. a negatively charged hydrogen ion is discharged), and not the negative electrode as is the case when water is electrolysed."

A metal can pressurized with  argon  perhaps?

Frederick

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Nov 23 08:52:46 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iANGqbgE016020; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 08:52:37 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iANGqBhV015935; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 08:52:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 08:52:11 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: temalloy@metro.lakes.com (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 10:52:12 -0600 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: Tantalizing/ tillitating Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1161; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: <3JM67C.A.34D.7q2oBB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56544 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner posted >At 9:03 PM 11/21/4, RC Macaulay wrote: >[snip] >>Setting aside the many wild and far out claims of many vortex buffs,... > >I'm mystified. Anyone recall any wild or far out claims here lately? 8^) > Lets see; water has a memory of all elements, therefore bombarding the water with a specific frequency produces elements that weren't there before, planetary transits affect the frequency of tuning forks, structuring water improves the health of the drinker From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Nov 23 10:12:54 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iANICdgE013953; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 10:12:39 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iANICWw1013908; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 10:12:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 10:12:32 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20041123181220.34816.qmail@web81106.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 10:12:20 -0800 (PST) From: Jones Beene Subject: OFF TOPIC Thanksgiving vision To: vortex-l MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56545 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In the US we take our bountiful supply of food for granted - except once a year, perhaps, as the Thanksgiving season approaches. My somewhat-shifting social consciousness must be responsible for slipping this vision of a better world, with food for all, into a dream last night. Many readers of this forum have also dreamt (fantasized) about a future in which very large, mega-scale engineering projects - which are just beyond our present technological grasp, become feasible; such as sky-tethers, sea-level canals across Mexico, OTEC etc. The following is some food for thought about another oft-mentioned project – one which might become feasible in the near future. With rising populations, arable land will be a problem soon, which can be mitigated by turning well-chosen desert-areas of earth (there are a few good candidate areas in Africa and Australia which meet the criteria) into arable land using water which is desalinated and pumped into those areas at extremely low net energy cost. But how can one desalinate the equivalent of a large river for little net expenditure of energy? It all depends on finding the proper site (and proper cites), and perhaps being able to build underground tunnels cheaply using robotics and lasers. However, Mother-nature herself can provide most of the desalination energy and most of the pumping for free ! At least that is the speculation involved here, based solely on a dream. I apologize if this is common knowledge – I couldn't’t find any reference to it on the web. There is a lot of information about the “water-density” anomaly – which is the increase in density of water, which starts at 4 degrees C. and then suddenly reverses once ice crystals form - as ice is less dense. This factor intertwines with salt content at the ocean depths. First, let me describe an enabling technology, which might make this work. It would be the ability to cut and remove large amounts of stone cheaply. Most of us are familiar with the high cost of the boring the “Chunnel” between France and England using essentially what are gigantic drills which must pulverize 100% of the mass of material in their path. But imagine how much cheaper a much large diameter tunnel – a deep underground river, in effect, could have been built – if instead of essentially grinding massive amounts of soft rock and hard mud into a pump-able slurry, we had the luxury of choosing a special kind of geology where a tunnel through much stronger rock could be built … “if only.” The “if only” part involves developing a laser cutting technology for hard rock and then the accompanied robotics – especially the 24/7 robotics necessary to remove the rock in large (marketable) pieces. Since the energy cost could be reduced greatly (and with energy and labor reductions being probably 75% of the cost) and with a market for the stone itself, it is possible that an underground river of perhaps a hundred miles in length could be built some 6000 feet below sea level using robotics – sometime in a future 40-50 years removed, where these things and especially the robotics have been perfected. Humans cannot operate at that depth for very long but robotic machines can operate continuously. With the progress in computers continuing - these robotics should be on the near-term horizon. Outside of factory and farm automation, this may be the best application for robotics imaginable on earth. Now what about that “free” desalinization and pumping. For water, of course, decreasing temperature leads to freezing. Unlike most solids - ice is LESS dense than water and floats. Maximum density is at ~4 degrees C, then ice lattices start to form and the ice will become buoyant and separate from salt on its own. Consider this in regard to: A. Freezing Temperature of Seawater Sunlight cannot penetrate below a depth of about 600 feet, around the start of what's known as the bathyal zone (it ends where the water temperature drops to 4 degrees Celsius - at about 6000 feet). Salts lower the freezing temperature- and interfere with the orderly arrangement of H2O molecules in ice. Seawater freezes at ~ -2 °C Ice crystals are “pure water,” leaving concentrated more dense salt water behind. It is true that some small amount of salt may and does get incorporated into sea ice as a result of too-rapid freezing, but that can be easily controlled. B. Salinity and Density Salts have a greater atomic mass that pure H2O. Density increases with increasing salinity. Densest waters = cold and salty – all the better for desalination IF it can occur at the depth of a mile of more. At depth of one mile, the water is already "almost cold enough" to freeze, once we remove some of the pressure. Once the salt water freezes by removal of the extra heat, nature will separate out the ice by it lower density and solidity. Once the pure water ice slurry has been separated from the saltier water in a submarine factory, the “coldness” is removed from the newly formed ice with heat pumps to provide that few degrees necessary to get 4 degree pure water frozen. IOW most of the energy needed is returned and recycled. Heat pumps are fairly efficient in this situation. Compared to osmosis or flash desalinization, this may be 20-50 times less energy intensive. C. Deep water oceans near desert? There are good candidates but we must locate the ones with the proper geology- strong enough rock and deep ocean trenches near shore - so that the tunnel can be laser cut and removed in large pieces: thereby lowering the mass of the material which must be mechanically altered by a factor about 100 billion to one (laser cuts are very thin). D. Strong undersea factory This is really not problem other than cost. Our nuclear submarine program has taken care of the bulk of the technology. Once such a factory is constructed and lowered into place in a deep ocean trench and connected to the underground “river” which has been robotically constructed, then fresh water can be produced using some nuclear energy but mostly by using mother-natures bag-of-tricks - and then the fresh water channeled to irrigate the desert (or large citries) with little pumping cost as there is a strong and recoverable pressure differential involved between the ocean at a mile deep. Has anyone seen this exact suggestion before (freeze-desalinization at great depth)? It seems obvious, but I may be missing something. After all - it was just a dream not 8 hours old ... now, I just wish that I hadn't misplaced my raggedy copy of "Aunt Sally's Policy Players Dream Book" as the Lotto jackpot is climbing up there once again ... but I'm not even sure that Aunt Sally's oraculum has a number equivalent for "freeze-desalinization".... Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Nov 23 12:58:54 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iANKwnT0010747; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 12:58:49 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iANKwkRs010701; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 12:58:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 12:58:46 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <41A3A4B1.2080909@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 15:59:29 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Thanksgiving vision References: <20041123181220.34816.qmail@web81106.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20041123181220.34816.qmail@web81106.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <5DKVJB.A.JnC.GS6oBB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56546 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: >It seems obvious, but I may be missing something. > How deep can our nuclear submarines operate? I think the Soviet Alphas with titanium hulls are good to 1500 m. The good news is that nuclear subterrenes were (allegedly) used to build all those "underground bases"; so, your boring machine exists. ;-) http://www.anomalous-images.com/text/nuclear.html From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Nov 24 06:01:19 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAOE1BKu007279; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 06:01:11 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAOE19Ba007265; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 06:01:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 06:01:09 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <410-2200411324125952510@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: The Full Moon & Vortex Posts Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 06:59:52 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9409e4702b8c4d6772f55cf7c09a7a9cc15350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.117.8 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56547 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Ever notice the increase in vortex-l posts and their temperament from about 4 days before and after the full moon? The Lunar Albedo Infrared peaks at the 2.5 Micron Infrared and affects the Seratonin-Melatonin-Pineal gland balance: http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2000/pdf/2059.pdf http://www.news.cornell.edu/releases/Jan97/Serotonin2.lb.html "Serotonin is a neurotransmitter that is becoming increasingly important as medical science learns of its role in a host of human disorders. It has been implicated in central nervous system disorders such as anxiety, depression, obsessive-compulsive disorder, schizophrenia, stroke, obesity, pain, hypertension, vascular disorders, migraine and even nausea. Serotonin is synthesized in brain neurons and is released upon a nerve impulse, where it interacts with receptors. The antidepressant Prozac (fluoxetine) is thought to treat depression by inhibiting re-uptake of serotonin into cells from which secretion occurs." Go Figure. :-) Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

Ever notice the increase in vortex-l posts and their temperament from about 4 days
before and after the full moon?  
 
The Lunar Albedo Infrared peaks at the 2.5 Micron Infrared and affects the Seratonin-Melatonin-Pineal gland balance:
 
 
 
 
"Serotonin is a neurotransmitter that is becoming increasingly important as medical science learns of its role in a host of human disorders. It has been implicated in central nervous system disorders such as anxiety, depression, obsessive-compulsive disorder, schizophrenia, stroke, obesity, pain, hypertension, vascular disorders, migraine and even nausea. Serotonin is synthesized in brain neurons and is released upon a nerve impulse, where it interacts with receptors. The antidepressant Prozac (fluoxetine) is thought to treat depression by inhibiting re-uptake of serotonin into cells from which secretion occurs."
 
Go Figure.  :-)
 
Frederick
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Nov 24 08:21:14 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAOGL6Q2032757; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 08:21:06 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAOGKuJ1032678; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 08:20:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 08:20:56 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20041124162048.90716.qmail@web81109.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 08:20:48 -0800 (PST) From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Thanksgiving vision To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <41A3A4B1.2080909@rtpatlanta.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56548 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- Terry Blanton wrote: > The good news is that nuclear subterrenes ... > http://www.anomalous-images.com/text/nuclear.html Whoa... I guess FS is right about the lunar influence.... Well, if nothing else - the idea behind "subterrenes" (sounds like a menu offering at a french deli) seems to be real, in the sense that it was explored on paper... and the fact that a few years later we had the famous movie "China Syndrome" which seemed to have hit a cultural nerve, indicates that a "meme" evolved out of it. Looking for the vitae of this guy, Richard Sauder, Ph.D... one seems to suspect that he orderd his from the same institute for "higher" learning that sold Bearden his (rolling papers included) ... not that there's anything wrong with that... his erudition is so obvious from his careful research and balanced writings that a PhD is superfluous to a researcher of this caliber. Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Nov 24 09:41:06 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAOHepKu022743; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 09:41:02 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAOHefN3022690; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 09:40:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 09:40:41 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <410-2200411324163924240@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Thanksgiving vision Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 10:39:24 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9408e9d2587122750202d34c7fc23982359350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.159.153 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56549 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: > > --- Terry Blanton wrote: > > > The good news is that nuclear subterrenes ... > > http://www.anomalous-images.com/text/nuclear.html > > Whoa... I guess FS is right about the lunar > influence.... > The tunneling capability is only part of the story. It is claimed that such a tunnel exists between Los Alamos and the Alien Base at Dulce NM. I don't know where they put the tailings though, unless they put them in the Rio Grande along with the spring runoff mountain soil that ends up with irrigation water as soil-builder. :-) Frederick > > Well, if nothing else - the idea behind "subterrenes" > (sounds like a menu offering at a french deli) seems > to be real, in the sense that it was explored on > paper... and the fact that a few years later we had > the famous movie "China Syndrome" which seemed to have > hit a cultural nerve, indicates that a "meme" evolved > out of it. > > Looking for the vitae of this guy, Richard Sauder, > Ph.D... one seems to suspect that he orderd his from > the same institute for "higher" learning that sold > Bearden his (rolling papers included) ... not that > there's anything wrong with that... his erudition is > so obvious from his careful research and balanced > writings that a PhD is superfluous to a researcher of > this caliber. > > Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Nov 24 09:59:30 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAOHxGKu028582; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 09:59:26 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAOHxCVR028544; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 09:59:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 09:59:12 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: OFF TOPIC Thanksgiving vision Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 12:58:16 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <20041124162048.90716.qmail@web81109.mail.yahoo.com> X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: <6iSsy.A.89G.wvMpBB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56550 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi. That article about subterrenes was an interesting read, makes me want to find the patents he's talking about. I suspect the problem with this idea ( one of several really ) is that the resulting tunnel would probably be radioactive from the reactor. I know that a whole slew of nuclear powered whatevers were patented by some of the original researchers of atomic energy; practically speaking little of it came into commercial use. It's a cool idea though, and if you don't mind being sterilized after you trip though the transatlantic tubeway it's all aboard... Referring to Jones earlier hallucination, given the cost of drilling wouldn't it be cheaper to head up to the north pole and wrangle a premade freshwater icecube? Jones needs to share whatever he's been doing to have dreams like that (grin). Oh yes, that's "freedom drill" not subterrene, you latte sipping NYtimes reading volvo driving terrorist! Double plus ungood. K. War is Peace Freedom is Slavery IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH! -----Original Message----- From: Jones Beene [mailto:jonesb9@pacbell.net] Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2004 11:21 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Thanksgiving vision --- Terry Blanton wrote: > The good news is that nuclear subterrenes ... > http://www.anomalous-images.com/text/nuclear.html Whoa... I guess FS is right about the lunar influence.... Well, if nothing else - the idea behind "subterrenes" (sounds like a menu offering at a french deli) seems to be real, in the sense that it was explored on paper... and the fact that a few years later we had the famous movie "China Syndrome" which seemed to have hit a cultural nerve, indicates that a "meme" evolved out of it. Looking for the vitae of this guy, Richard Sauder, Ph.D... one seems to suspect that he orderd his from the same institute for "higher" learning that sold Bearden his (rolling papers included) ... not that there's anything wrong with that... his erudition is so obvious from his careful research and balanced writings that a PhD is superfluous to a researcher of this caliber. Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Nov 24 10:22:20 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAOIM4Q2008135; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 10:22:08 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAOIM1tP008088; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 10:22:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 10:22:01 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <41A4D172.4080902@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 13:22:42 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Thanksgiving vision References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56551 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Keith Nagel wrote: >Oh yes, that's "freedom drill" not subterrene, you >latte sipping NYtimes reading volvo driving terrorist! >Double plus ungood. > Well, to honor one of my favorite liberals' comment, here's a cutie from rense.com: <><><><><><><><> American Liberals Sneaking Across Border Into Canada The flood of American liberals sneaking across the border into Canada Has intensified in the past week, sparking calls for increased patrols to stop the illegal immigration. The re-election of President Bush is prompting the exodus among Left leaning citizens who fear they'll soon be required to hunt, pray and agree with Bill O' Reilly. Canadian border farmers say its not uncommon to see dozens of sociology professors, animal rights activists and Unitarians crossing their fields at night. "I went out to milk the cows the other day, and there was a Hollywood producer huddled in the barn," said Manitoba farmer Red Greenfield, whose acreage borders North Dakota. The producer was cold, exhausted and hungry. He asked me if I could spare a latte and some free-range chicken. When I said I didn't have any, he left. Didn't even get a chance to show him my screenplay, eh?" In an effort to stop the illegal aliens, Greenfield erected higher fences but the liberals scaled them. So he tried installing speakers that blare Rush Limbaugh across the fields. "Not real effective," he said. "The liberals still got through, and Rush annoyed the cows so much they wouldn't give milk." Officials are particularly concerned about smugglers who meet liberals Near the Canadian border, pack them into Volvo station wagons, drive them across the border and leave them to fend for themselves. "A lot of these people are not prepared for rugged conditions," an Ontario border patrolman said. "I found one carload without a drop of drinking water. They did have a nice little Napa Valley cabernet, though." When liberals are caught, they're sent back across the border, often Wailing loudly that they fear retribution from conservatives. Rumors have been circulating about the Bush administration establishing re-education camps in which liberals will be forced to drink domestic beer and watch NASCAR. In the days since the election, liberals have turned to sometimes ingenious ways of crossing the border. Some have taken to posing as senior citizens on bus trips to buy cheap Canadian prescription drugs. After catching a half-dozen young vegans disguised in powdered wigs, Canadian immigration authorities began stopping buses and quizzing the supposed senior-citizen passengers. "If they can't identify the accordion player on The Lawrence Welk Show, We get suspicious about their age," an official said. Canadian citizens have complained that the illegal immigrants are Creating an organic-broccoli shortage and renting all the good Susan Sarandon movies. "I feel sorry for American liberals, but the Canadian economy just can't support them," an Ottawa resident said. "How many art-history majors does one country need?" In an effort to ease tensions between the United States and Canada, Vice President Dick Cheney met with the Canadian ambassador and pledged that the administration would take steps to reassure liberals, a source close to Cheney said. "We're going to have some Peter, Paul & Mary concerts. And we might put some endangered species on postage stamps. The president is determined to reach out." From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Nov 24 18:39:32 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAP2dPrf010263; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 18:39:25 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAP2dHRf010216; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 18:39:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 18:39:17 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Chicea Carbon Creation Counter-Commentary Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 13:39:04 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <003201c4bc37$7558e600$d0bcfea9@jonesb9pacbell> In-Reply-To: <003201c4bc37$7558e600$d0bcfea9@jonesb9pacbell> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id iAP2d8rf010158 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56552 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jones Beene's message of Wed, 27 Oct 2004 08:13:03 -0700: Hi, [snip] >An extraordinary paper was presented at ICCF-10 entitled >"Comment On Carbon Production In Deuterium-Metal Systems" by >DAN CHICEA, Visiting Research Associate Professor at >Portland State. > >http://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/ChiceaDcommentonc.pdf > >The experiment reveals that when titanium, palladium or a >combination of them was loaded with deuterium, a >considerable amount of carbon was found on the surface of >the cathode after many days - merely as a result of high >loading. These results suggest that there is a strong >correlation between merely achieving a high loading ratio >and the appearance of new elements, particularly carbon, on >the cathode. > >How could this be? Carbon is the lightest element that has a per nucleon binding energy equivalent to that of the heaviest metals. In short a rearrangement of nucleons can take place without mass to energy conversion. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Nov 24 19:20:29 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAP3KHrf021887; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 19:20:18 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAP3KGJv021872; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 19:20:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 19:20:16 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.1.2.0.0.20041124220012.0211eb18@pop.theworld.com> X-Sender: mica@pop.theworld.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.2.0 Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 22:03:39 -0500 To: From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Happy Thanksgiving - COLD FUSION TIMES volume 12 number 1 is out Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56553 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hope all vorts have a Happy Thanksgiving. Keep up the good work, studies, and research. Also, the latest issue of the COLD FUSION TIMES is just out. COLD FUSION TIMES volume 12 number 1. {Fall 2004 - Jan 2005) http://world.std.com/~mica/cft.html Links to ICCF11 papers, info, DOE Review, Includes update on Gene Mallove's, unfortunately unsolved murder, too. Here is to a better, and happy, new year. Best wishes. Dr. Mitchell Swartz ===================================== URLS: COLD FUSION TIMES http://world.std.com/~mica/cft.html JET THERMAL PRODUCTS http://world.std.com/~mica/jet.html From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Nov 24 23:59:50 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAP7xarf028724; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 23:59:37 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAP7xYHl028702; Wed, 24 Nov 2004 23:59:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 23:59:34 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner@mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 23:06:11 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Chicea Carbon Creation Counter-Commentary Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56554 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 1:39 PM 11/25/4, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >In reply to Jones Beene's message of Wed, 27 Oct 2004 08:13:03 -0700: >Hi, >[snip] >>An extraordinary paper was presented at ICCF-10 entitled >>"Comment On Carbon Production In Deuterium-Metal Systems" by >>DAN CHICEA, Visiting Research Associate Professor at >>Portland State. >> >>http://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/ChiceaDcommentonc.pdf >> >>The experiment reveals that when titanium, palladium or a >>combination of them was loaded with deuterium, a >>considerable amount of carbon was found on the surface of >>the cathode after many days - merely as a result of high >>loading. These results suggest that there is a strong >>correlation between merely achieving a high loading ratio >>and the appearance of new elements, particularly carbon, on >>the cathode. >> >>How could this be? > >Carbon is the lightest element that has a per nucleon binding energy >equivalent to that of the heaviest metals. In short a rearrangement of >nucleons can take place without mass to energy conversion. Another possibility is that the cells are exposed to the atmosphere. CO2 can thus dissolve into the electrolyte, forming carbolic acid etc. Carbonium radicals (which are positive) may form at the anode or in solution, due to the presence of H3O+ there which provides protons. The Pd or Ti cathode can then strip the hydrogen off the carbonium radicals, adsorbing the hydrogen, and leaving the carbon on its surface. That is a possible explanation for carbon only though. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Nov 26 06:31:12 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAQEV77n026348; Fri, 26 Nov 2004 06:31:08 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAQEUibV026284; Fri, 26 Nov 2004 06:30:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 06:30:44 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <410-220041152613292830@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Chicea Carbon Creation Counter-Commentary Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 07:29:28 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94088ec8254931b8057c2a15826a469a7df350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.120.53 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56555 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII I agree with the contention that the Carbon "plated" on the cathode is from CO2 contamination either from the atmosphere and/or possibly from from the electrolyte-electrode chemicals. De-ionized D2O or H2O will absorb atmospheric CO2 in seconds. CO2 released at the anode can mix with the (H2, D2, O2) gases in the vapor space and undergo synthesis gas reactions catalyzed by the electrode surfaces above the electrolyte: 1, D2 + CO2 (Pd or Ni catalyst) ----> D2O + CO 2, D2 + CO (Pd or Ni catalyst) ----> D2 + CO ----> D2O + C Many other similar reaction pathways are possible. Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

I agree with the contention that the Carbon "plated" on the cathode
is from CO2 contamination either from the atmosphere and/or possibly from
from the electrolyte-electrode chemicals. De-ionized D2O or H2O will absorb
atmospheric CO2 in seconds.
 
CO2 released at the anode can mix with the (H2, D2, O2) gases in the vapor space
and undergo synthesis  gas reactions catalyzed by the electrode surfaces above
the electrolyte:
 
1, D2 + CO2 (Pd or Ni catalyst) ----> D2O + CO
 
2, D2 + CO (Pd or Ni catalyst) ----> D2 + CO ----> D2O + C
 
Many other similar reaction pathways are possible.
 
Frederick
 
 
 
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Nov 26 10:07:52 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAQI7m7n017041; Fri, 26 Nov 2004 10:07:48 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAQI7k34017019; Fri, 26 Nov 2004 10:07:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 10:07:46 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20041126180738.17974.qmail@web81103.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 10:07:38 -0800 (PST) From: Jones Beene Subject: HTSC & LENR To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56556 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Superconductivity and the quest for free-energy are intertwined on several levels, but it is incorrect to assume that HTSC, or High Temperature Superconductivity will lead immediately to overunity, or vice versa. Some observers would say that we already have a form of HTSC now since every magnetic domain in a permanent magnet is, in effect, a “local” HTSC circuit. Every “exciton” in some varieties of metal-loaded deuterium LENR may likewise be a “local” HTSC circuit. Superconductors lose all resistance to the flow of direct electrical current DC, and “nearly all” resistance to the flow of alternating current when cooled below a critical temperature, which is different for each superconducting material. The “nearly all” may be one of the problems in regard to also cohering free-energy... or not. IOW, a superconductor is a perfect conductor of only DC; it carries direct current with 100% efficiency because no energy is dissipated by resistive heating, which is not the same as saying that there are no other potential losses. In a HTSC loop, DC could possibly flow undiminished forever but only if zero inductive losses into other circuits are maintained - not easy. And with AC there is usually another potential circuit readily available – that being “space”. Every AC conductor is a potential broadcast antenna; which “problem” is not always a disadvantage and may be exploited to become a “feature,” as suggested below. Superconductors, and one can assume that this holds true for the "Ultraconductor" of Mark Goldes as well, conduct alternating current with some slight but varying dissipation of energy internally (a kind of phonon friction). Of course, any EMF which is induced by the HTSC circuit into another circuit, or which is "broadcast," is deducted... but deducted at near 100% efficiency. That level of loss, as it is high-efficiency loss, is why HTSC may lead to free-energy in a compound device– the kind of device where… say, the near lossless flow of energy becomes the subject of a second– or layered, “paradigm shift.” (the first being the HTSC itself) By this it is meant that HTSC may become an enabling technology for LENR in several different ways. For instance, by the simple expedient of being able to provide us with a real magnetic “flux gate” or other type of magnetic focusing, HTSC may enable magnetic devices cohere the extra-dimensional source of energy known as ZPE. But the emphasis here is not so abstract - it is on being able to produce coherent photons at very high efficiency, and in a previously “unused” range. Normally lasers with power approaching the one-watt level are not very efficient (micro-watt semiconductor lasers are efficient but you would need a huge array and these are not at the correct frequency for this application anyway), so despite whatever other advantages they may have in stimulating LENR, as in the so-called Letts’ effect, their inefficiency will be a problem for a commercial device, especially a small device. When “excess” energy must be “fed back” or recycled to keep a reaction going, then efficiency in the subsystems is absolutely necessary. And many types of LENR may very likely end up being “reverse economy of scale” devices, consequently this ability of HTSC to facilitate “going small” may be invaluable. Now… after that long-winded intro, consider this potential synergy - Let us begin by saying that “on paper” we have found a QM (quantum mechanical) temperature at which a “nuclear tunneling resonance” for deuterium will occur at greatly indreased probability (it the theory is correct) in a particular matrix. This temperature range seems correct because various analysts have come up with a similar answer using different theroies and assumptions. For the sake of argument, let us say that this resonant temperature has the equivalent mass/energy of .02 eV, or two hundredths of an electron volt. We know that this level of mass energy has an associated frequency in the terahertz range, but we also know that there are NO lasers available commercially at adequate power to produce photons in this range, and even the prototype solid-state cavity devices are extremely inefficient, and unfortunately are unavailable at the moment. The $64 question is – can HTSC come to the rescue? How, one might ask? The answer is rather simple, since this temperature range and the associated wavelength are easily within the gemometric limits of the lithography techniques which are used with semiconductors. Since any HTSC should be able to carry about 125-150 times more current than a copper wire of the same physical size, we know the power we need will be available and that if we can etch two overlapping layers of HTSC film so that they will self-resonate at the desired photon output, then… voila… we should be well on the way to using HTSC as our enabling technology for LENR. It will be HTSC carrying extremely high frequency AC but we will not need discreet devices to produce the AC. The AC in the terahertz range will be all induced in overlapping HTSC circuits by mutual self-induction based on geometry alone. It is an elegant solution… except for the obvious lack - at this particular time - of a good HTSC substrate which can be etched and fabricated to he proper specifications in two overlapping layers. But by this time next year (or “sooner rather than later,” as they say), that deficiency may not be an insurmountable problem. There is probably no more active field in all of cutting-edge, corporate and government-level R&D than this field: HTSC. My only goal now is to convince one of the purveyors of an appropriate HTSC substrate that this application should be looked at. My "take" on the "ultraconductor" is that unfortunatly it is not suitable for this kind of layered etching, and moreover does not conduct in the planar dimension anyway, so it would not work as an emitter of coherent terahertz radiation. The major problem for using a coherent terahertz light source in a compound LENR device is this. Photons at this frequency cannot be reflected or focused… in effect, they “want” to go through everything – metals, ceramics, plastics, you-name-it. So how do we use them effectively? Easy ! says the naive optimist. We first produce the coherent photons on an internal planar geometry, and then of course, we surround this subsystem with our active LENR material (two discs on either side of the planar terahertz emitter)… chill approprately and then, hopefully, we will have realized our "triple coherency"... get it? Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Nov 26 10:58:15 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAQIwA7n029876; Fri, 26 Nov 2004 10:58:10 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAQIw6GP029853; Fri, 26 Nov 2004 10:58:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 10:58:06 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: FZNIDARSIC@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 13:57:59 EST Subject: Re: HTSC & LENR To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_d8.1a3437b0.2ed8d6b7_boundary" X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6808 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56557 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --part1_d8.1a3437b0.2ed8d6b7_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en In a message dated 11/26/2004 1:08:07 PM Eastern Standard Time,=20 jonesb9@pacbell.net writes: > QM (quantum mechanical) > temperature at which a =E2=80=9Cnuclear tunneling resonance=E2=80=9D > for deuterium will occur at greatly increased >=20 Very good comment. Normally superconductors only influence the=20 electromagnetic field. Shock or vibration adjoins the gravitational and nuc= lear fields to=20 the condensate. The frequency of the shock depends on the size of the condenate. The=20 relationship between size and frequency is one megahertz-meter. see Chapters 4 and 11 MAIN MENU=20 I believe this is a more productive approach than zero point energy or=20 aethers of any sort. Frank Z --part1_d8.1a3437b0.2ed8d6b7_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en In a message dated 11/26/2004 1:08:= 07 PM Eastern Standard Time, jonesb9@pacbell.net writes:

QM (quantum mechanical)
temperature at which a =E2=80=9Cnuclear tunneling resonance=E2=80=9D
for deuterium will occur at greatly increased


Very good comment.  Normally superconductors only influence the electro= magnetic field.  Shock or vibration adjoins the gravitational and nucle= ar fields to the condensate.

The frequency of the shock depends on the size of the condenate.  The r= elationship between size and frequency is one megahertz-meter.

see Chapters 4 and 11

MAIN MENU
I believe this is a more productive approach than zero point energy or aethe= rs of any sort.

Frank Z --part1_d8.1a3437b0.2ed8d6b7_boundary-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Nov 26 11:13:18 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAQJDB02013980; Fri, 26 Nov 2004 11:13:11 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAQJCjpR013858; Fri, 26 Nov 2004 11:12:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 11:12:45 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: FZNIDARSIC@aol.com Message-ID: <46.5d6cfe0d.2ed8da1f@aol.com> Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 14:12:31 EST Subject: Re: HTSC & LENR To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_46.5d6cfe0d.2ed8da1f_boundary" X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6808 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56558 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --part1_46.5d6cfe0d.2ed8da1f_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en In a message dated 11/26/2004 1:08:07 PM Eastern Standard Time,=20 jonesb9@pacbell.net writes: > Every =E2=80=9Cexciton=E2=80=9D in some varieties of > metal-loaded deuterium LENR may likewise be a =E2=80=9Clocal=E2=80=9D > HTSC circuit. >=20 >=20 Another very good comment. The superconductivity involves protons in a=20 proton conductor not electrons in a normal conductor. I done a great deal of work in this area. The quantum emission is described= =20 in terms of the emitted particle. The relationship between the frequency an= d=20 energy of the emitted particle is described by Planck's constant. Znidarsic= 's=20 constant describes the geometry of the emitter. This geometry is measured=20 with capacitance. One megahertz-meter is equivalent to Planck's constant. =20= It=20 also expresses the path of the quantum transition. I have shown this to be=20= the=20 case for atomic, photon, and nuclear emissions. See chapters 10 11 and 13.=20 The constant may also be applied to macro Bose condensates. The condensate=20= may=20 then be placed into a state of quantum transition. I got a midi and added some fun music to my saucer animation in Chapter 4 an= d=20 in the self test. enjoy MAIN MENU=20 This is not a new idea for me. I've been sticking to it since 1990 and not=20 bouncing around. There is some new and important physics here but physics as a hole remains=20 unchanged. Frank Z --part1_46.5d6cfe0d.2ed8da1f_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en In a message dated 11/26/2004 1:08:= 07 PM Eastern Standard Time, jonesb9@pacbell.net writes:

Every =E2=80=9Cexciton=E2=80= =9D in some varieties of
metal-loaded deuterium LENR may likewise be a =E2=80=9Clocal=E2=80=9D
HTSC circuit.



Another very good comment.  The superconductivity involves protons in a= proton conductor not electrons in a normal conductor.

I done a great deal of work in this area.  The quantum emission is desc= ribed in terms of the emitted particle.  The relationship between the f= requency and energy of the emitted particle is described by Planck's constan= t.  Znidarsic's constant describes the geometry of the emitter.  T= his geometry is measured with capacitance.  One megahertz-meter is equi= valent to Planck's constant.  It also expresses the path of the quantum= transition.  I have shown this to be the case for atomic, photon, and=20= nuclear emissions.  See chapters 10 11 and 13. The constant may also be= applied to macro Bose condensates.  The condensate may then be placed=20= into a state of quantum transition.

I got a midi and added some fun music to my saucer animation in Chapter 4 an= d in the self test.

enjoy

MAIN MENU

This is not a new idea for me.  I've been sticking to it since 1990 and= not bouncing around.
There is some new and important physics here but physics as a hole remains u= nchanged.

Frank Z --part1_46.5d6cfe0d.2ed8da1f_boundary-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Nov 26 11:45:40 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAQJjR02022646; Fri, 26 Nov 2004 11:45:27 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAQJjPoH022626; Fri, 26 Nov 2004 11:45:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 11:45:25 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20041126194518.32414.qmail@web81103.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 11:45:18 -0800 (PST) From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: HTSC & LENR To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56559 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- FZNIDARSIC@aol.com wrote: > The frequency of the shock depends on the size of the condenate. The relationship between size and frequency is one megahertz-meter. Frank, Let me see if I understand how your theoretical relationship would apply here, instead of the normal CF parameters. Since the frequency is question is about 5 terahertz, you are saying that the effective size (of the "exciton" or other active microstructure) should be .2 microns - is that correct? Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Nov 26 12:10:32 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAQKAS7n015185; Fri, 26 Nov 2004 12:10:29 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAQKAC17015107; Fri, 26 Nov 2004 12:10:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 12:10:12 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner@mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 11:16:53 -0900 To: "vortex-l" From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Chicea Carbon Creation Counter-Commentary Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56560 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 7:29 AM 11/26/4, Frederick Sparber wrote: >I agree with the contention that the Carbon "plated" on the cathode >is from CO2 contamination either from the atmosphere and/or possibly from >from the electrolyte-electrode chemicals. De-ionized D2O or H2O will absorb >atmospheric CO2 in seconds. Yes. It has just occurred to me that, despite the fact such a mundane explanation carbon formation may appear to be an argument against CF type alchemy, it may provide an important look into how CF may be controllably created, as will be discussed further below. > >CO2 released at the anode can mix with the (H2, D2, O2) gases in the vapor >space >and undergo synthesis gas reactions catalyzed by the electrode surfaces above >the electrolyte: > >1, D2 + CO2 (Pd or Ni catalyst) ----> D2O + CO > >2, D2 + CO (Pd or Ni catalyst) ----> D2 + CO ----> D2O + C > >Many other similar reaction pathways are possible. Yes, especially since CO2 and various compounds it forms in water, being polar like water, have an affinity for protons, so in solution, take on (average) positive charges from hydronium and migrate to the cathode, i.e. become cations, e.g.: CO2 + H3O+ <--> CO2H+ + H2O The above two-way reaction equilabrates strongly toward the left, but clearly any equilibration at all migrates the CO2 to the cathode due to the force on the proton. Some cations require energy from an anode to be formed in the presence of water, because water tends to strip the protons right out of them. Carbolic acid (phenol) can form when CO2 is dissolved in water, and it can be "hydroniumized" to make a cation, i.e. a carbonium ion. Phenol is just an aromatic ring (C6) with an OH attached. One has to wonder if the freed aromatic rings can form into fullernes at the cathode when the free proton is electronated and water formed, leaving the aromatic ring behind. In any event, it seems to me an environment that can create aromatic rings can similarly create Fullerenes. If fullerenes can be created at a cathode surface, then this seems to have two major implications: (1) electrolysis of (strong) carbolic acid or other aromatic compounds may provide a practical means of bulk fullerene production and (2) the fullerenes formed at cathodes, especially when codeposited with metals and deuterium, may have a significant effect in producing cold fusion. Fullerenes would of course create major crystal defects, and, as powerfully contained "packing sites" for adorbed deuterium, such defects may be the missing ingrediant for reproducible CF. In other words the fullerene carbon bonds provide strong containment for pockets of hydrogen, the ionically bonded metal lattice permeable to protons provides a means of packing the fullerenes. Pockets of compressed hydrogen at defects created by hydrogen implantation of metals, esp. aluminum, have been shown to be fusion sites when bombarded by either electron beams (Kamada et al), or deuteron beams (Kasagi et al). The strong containment may be significant at the time of fusion catalysis due to the need to give secondary electrons time to work. The Kasagi experiment created protons with anomalous energies of up to 17 MeV using a beam that was less than 150 KeV. The Kasagi experiment involved the bombardment of a deuterium loaded titanium rod target with deuterium ions at up to 150 KeV. One possible explanation for the above was that somehow the incident deuteron frequently, for unexplained reasons, would interact with two target deuterons: D + D + D -> p + n + alpha + 21.62 MEV One possible explanation for such a phenomenon is that in the lattice deuterons tend to form Bose condensates which, when struck by a deuteron, tend to react as a single entity. Kamada obtained high energy particles and excess heat evidence using electron bombardment of deuterated targets. The fact fusion can be triggered by electron beam bombardment I take to be an indication of or confirmation of electron catalysed fusion. The exciting thing is the requirement for the electron catalysis to happen at highly compressed pockets of deuterium. It seems to me the high energy electron beam used by Kamada may have been primarily needed in order to obtain the required penetration. It strikes me that the best way to obtain a volume CF effect, as opposed to a surface CF effect, is to bombard the deuterated target with xrays. The xrays can then, at depth, provide the needed catalytic electrons of the required energy. It would be of great interest to correlate fusion events with xray energy for deuterated targets of varying thickness. One of the interesting results obtained by Kamada: >Jpn. J. Appl. Phys. Vol. 35 (1996) pp. 738-747 >Part 1, No. 2A, February 1996 > >Anomalous Heat Evolution of Deuteron-Implanted Al >upon Electron Bombardment > >Kohji KAMADA, Hiroshi KINOSHITA [1] and Heishitiro TAKAHASHI [1] >National Institute for Fusion Science, Nagoya 464-01, Japan >[1] Center of Advanced Research Energy Technology, Hokkaido University, > Sapporo 062, Japan > >(Received December 7, 1994; accepted for publication November 6, 1995) > > Anomalous heat evolution was observed for the first time in deuteron- >implanted Al foils upon 175 keV electron bombardment. Local regions with >linear dimension of more than 100 nm showed simultaneous transformation >from single-crystalline to polycrystalline structure within roughly one >minute during the electron bombardment, indicating a temperature rise to >above the melting point of Al from room temperature. The amount of energy >evolved was estimated to be typically 160 MeV for each transformed region. >The transformation was never observed in proton-implanted Al foils. Micro- >structures in the subsurface layer of the implanted Al, investigated by >elastic recoil detection (ERD) method and transmission electron microscopy >(TEM), were presented for numerical discussions of the experimental results. >Possible causes of the surface melting, such as the heating effect of the >electron beam, size effect of the melting point, difference in the implanted >depth profiles between hydrogen and deuterium, and possible chemical reac- >tions due to the bombardment in D2 collections, were investigated. We >consider that some kind of nuclear reaction occurring in the D2 collections >is the only explanation for the observed melting. The reaction was esti- >mated to continue for only a short time, presumably less than 10E-10 s, >and the energy gain, which is defined as the ratio between the amount of >energy evolved and the energy loss of the impinging electrons through the >Al specimen, amounts to more than 1E5. > >KEYWORDS: deuteron implantation, electron bombardment, melting Kamamda also had a similar paper in 1992 regarding energetic particle detection upon electron bombardment of a deuterated lattice. The 1992 (Kamada) results showed 1.3 MeV or greater 4He (about 80 percent) and 0.4 MeV or greater P (about 20 percent) tracks using Al loaded with *either* H or D. The electron beam energy used was 200 and 400 keV. H3+ or D3+ ions were implanted with an energy of 90 keV into Al films. The implantation was done at a fluence of 10^17 (H+ or D+)/cm^2 using a Cockcroft Walton type accelerator. The Al foil used was would pass 200 keV electrons. It was bombarded in a HITACHI HU-500 with a beam current of 300 to 400 nA with a beam size of roughly 4x10^-5 cm^2, or (4-6)x1016 e/cm^2/s flux electron beam. The area the beam passed through was roughly 2x10^-3 cm^2. Total bombarding time was 40 m. The Al target was a 5 mm dia. disk 1 mm thick, but chemically thinned. The particle detectors were 10 mm x 15 mm x 1 mm CR-39 polymer plastic detectors supplied by Tokuyama Soda Co. Ltd. Great care was taken to avoid radon gas exposure. Detectors were set horizontally on either side of the beam 20 mm above the target and two were set vertically one above the other 20 mm to the side of the target but starting at the elevation of the target and going upward (beam source upward from target). The detectors were etched with 6N KOH at 70 deg. C for 2 h. at a rate of 2.7 um/h. Energies and species were determined by comparison of traces by optical microscope with traces of known origin. Traces on the backsides of the detectors were found to be at background level. Background was determined by runing the experiment with Al films not loaded with H or D. Four succesive repititions of the experiment at the 200 keV level were run to confirm the reproducibiliy of the experiment. There was a roughly 100 count above background in each detector, or 1340 total estimated per run for the H-H reaction. A slightly higher rate was indicated for the D-D reaction. This is a rate of 5x10-15 events per electron, or 2x10^14 electrons per event. However, the fusion events per hydrogen pair in the target is 2.8x10^12 events/H-H pair. The events per collision based on the stimulation energy was calculated to be 10-12 to 10-26 times less than the observed events. The 1996 results (Kamada, Kinoshita, Takahashi) involved similar procedures but bombardment was at 175 keV using a TEM which simulataneously was used for taking images of the target. Transformed (melted) regions with linear dimensions of about 100 nm were observed that indicated heat evolvement of 160 MeV for each transformed region. The (energy evolved) / (beam energy) for each region is about 10^5. Implantation of H was done at 25 keV to a depth of about 100 nm. at a fluence of 5x10^17 H+/cm^2. Bubbles of "molecular coagulations" of H were formed at pressures of 7 GPa. At a depth of 60 nm H density was measured by ERD to be 2x10^22 atoms/cm^3. Immediately after implantation molecular density was 1x10^22 mol./cm^3, Molar volume was 60 cm^3/mol and pressure 54.5 MPa. The targets were 5 mm dia 0.1mm thick polished using a TENUPOLE chemical polishing machine to a thickness of 1 uM over an area of 1 mm and a small hole of 0.1 mm dia. in the central part. A HITACHI H-700 TEM was used. The beam was 50 nA on an area of about 1 um dia. giving flux of 4x10^19 e/(cm^2*s). The area is first examined with the beam not fully focused and the spots are not there. The beam is focused and the spots appear (photographed) within about 10 s. for D2, not at all with H2. The experiment was repeated over 30 times!. To reliably reproduce the result two conditions must be met: (1) The microstructure must be optimum, meaning there must be a minimum of tunnel structures connecting the implanted bubbles. (This is insured by limiting the fluence of the implanting beam to 5x10^17 H+/cm^2.) (2) The intensity of the electron beam must be roughly 1x10^19 electrons/(cm^2*s). Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Nov 26 12:40:25 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAQKeE02005738; Fri, 26 Nov 2004 12:40:15 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAQKeDrL005720; Fri, 26 Nov 2004 12:40:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 12:40:13 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner@mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 11:46:56 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: HTSC & LENR Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id iAQKe902005652 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56561 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:07 AM 11/26/4, Jones Beene wrote: [snip] >Since any HTSC should be able to carry about 125-150 >times more current than a copper wire of the same >physical size, we know the power we need will be >available and that if we can etch two overlapping >layers of HTSC film so that they will self-resonate at >the desired photon output, thenÖ voilaÖ we should be >well on the way to using HTSC as our enabling >technology for LENR. It will be HTSC carrying >extremely high frequency AC but we will not need >discreet devices to produce the AC. The AC in the >terahertz range will be all induced in overlapping >HTSC circuits by mutual self-induction based on >geometry alone. Jones, good news and bad news. Superconductors do not have zero resistance when not carrying DC. They can not sustain internal electric fields, and AC produces internal fields. Small internal fields destroy cooper pair bonds. This is one reason superconductors can can sustain only limited magnetic fields - because the Hall potential, small as it is, destroys Cooper pairs when the imposed orthogonal magnetic field is large enough. That's the bad news. The good news is that *gaps* between superconductors can be used to generate radiation by imposing a potential across the gap. Unfortunately the gap must be small enough that electrons can tunnel back and forth, because it is this tunneling that occurs in unison that creates the "AC Josephson Effect" that is the subject radiation. A voltage of 10^-6 volts produces radiation at 500x10^6 Hz., so we have 5x10^14 Hz/volt. If you want to create a 1 THz = 1x10^12 Hz, you need to apply (5x10^14 Hz/volt)/(1x10^12 Hz) = 2x10-3 volts or 2 millivolts to the gap. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Nov 26 16:56:16 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAR0uC7n013665; Fri, 26 Nov 2004 16:56:13 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAR0u4Is013585; Fri, 26 Nov 2004 16:56:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 16:56:04 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20041127005557.47021.qmail@web81102.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 16:55:57 -0800 (PST) From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: HTSC & LENR To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <8HI5ZC.A.IUD.jC9pBB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56562 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- Horace Heffner wrote: > The good news is that *gaps* between superconductors can be used to generate radiation by imposing a potential across the gap. Unfortunately, the gap must be small enough that electrons can tunnel back and forth... Thanks for that information. This is encouraging... especially for generation of terahertz radiation, which passes through just about anything (including presumably the HTSC itself), consequently the "gaps" themselves would not necessarily need to be exposed or oriented to the preferred emission plane, leaving open the possibility of simply stacking (by electroplating?) many layers of HTSC alternating with thin layers of oxide insulation... and without any need for micro-lithography... Magnesium boride comes to mind as just a candidate HTSC - if that is, boron is platable (it forms an acid so why not?)... Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Nov 26 17:20:49 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAR1Kg7n018986; Fri, 26 Nov 2004 17:20:43 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAR1KfBS018971; Fri, 26 Nov 2004 17:20:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 17:20:41 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: FZNIDARSIC@aol.com Message-ID: <1f1.2f74a2f1.2ed9305e@aol.com> Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 20:20:30 EST Subject: Re: HTSC & LENR To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_1f1.2f74a2f1.2ed9305e_boundary" X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6808 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56563 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --part1_1f1.2f74a2f1.2ed9305e_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/26/2004 2:45:53 PM Eastern Standard Time, jonesb9@pacbell.net writes: > Since the frequency is question is about 5 terahertz, > you are saying that the effective size (of the > "exciton" or other active microstructure) should be .2 > microns - is that correct? > > Jones > That's the idea. I don't know where the 5 terahertz comes from. Thermal frequencies are about 10 exp 14 hertz The effective size should be about 50 nano meters. ( 50x10exp-9 ) x ( 1x10exp +14 )= 5 x 10 exp 6 hertz-meters The exact size verses number comes from theory and it is 1.092 megahertz-meter. For visible light the size is a few nanometers. Frank Znidarsic --part1_1f1.2f74a2f1.2ed9305e_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 11/26/2004 2:45:= 53 PM Eastern Standard Time, jonesb9@pacbell.net writes:

Since the frequency is question= is about 5 terahertz,
you are saying that the effective size (of the
"exciton" or other active microstructure) should be .2
microns - is that correct?

Jones


That's the idea.  I don't know where the 5 terahertz comes from. =20= Thermal frequencies are about 10 exp 14 hertz  The effective size shoul= d be about 50 nano meters.

( 50x10exp-9 ) x ( 1x10exp +14 )=3D  5 x 10 exp 6 hertz-meters

The exact size verses number comes from theory and it is 1.092 megahertz-met= er.

For visible light the size is a few nanometers.

Frank Znidarsic --part1_1f1.2f74a2f1.2ed9305e_boundary-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Nov 26 17:34:08 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAR1Y17n022909; Fri, 26 Nov 2004 17:34:02 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAR1Y1VY022902; Fri, 26 Nov 2004 17:34:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 17:34:01 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: FZNIDARSIC@aol.com Message-ID: <1d4.304514e9.2ed93380@aol.com> Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 20:33:52 EST Subject: Re: HTSC & LENR To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_1d4.304514e9.2ed93380_boundary" X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6808 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56564 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --part1_1d4.304514e9.2ed93380_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Since the frequency is question is about 5 terahertz, > you are saying that the effective size (of the > "exciton" or other active microstructure) should be .2 > microns - is that correct? > > Jones > The size verse freq is 50 nm per my previous post. What I just found out is that one transformation happens in each 50 nm cluster. Then the cluster blows apart. ref http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/SzpakSprecursors.pdf Frank Z --part1_1d4.304514e9.2ed93380_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Since the frequency is question= is about 5 terahertz,
you are saying that the effective size (of the
"exciton" or other active microstructure) should be .2
microns - is that correct?

Jones



The size verse freq is 50 nm per my previous post.  What I just found o= ut is that one transformation happens in each 50 nm cluster.  Then the=20= cluster blows apart.

ref

http://lenr-ca= nr.org/acrobat/SzpakSprecursors.pdf


Frank Z --part1_1d4.304514e9.2ed93380_boundary-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Nov 26 22:21:19 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAR6LC02021794; Fri, 26 Nov 2004 22:21:12 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAR6L7V8021760; Fri, 26 Nov 2004 22:21:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 22:21:07 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: FZNIDARSIC@aol.com Message-ID: <129.50f744ea.2ed976c7@aol.com> Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 01:20:55 EST Subject: Music makes a web page fun To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_129.50f744ea.2ed976c7_boundary" X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6808 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56565 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --part1_129.50f744ea.2ed976c7_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Try this link. Go down on the page and pick the blue link "Compton frequency" Compton should appear with music. Then pick "Close Window" He should disappear with music. http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/chapterb.html The music is MIDI. The execution of the music is Java Script. enjoy Frank Z --part1_129.50f744ea.2ed976c7_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Try this link.  Go down on the= page and pick the blue link "Compton frequency"
Compton should appear with music.
Then pick "Close Window"  He should disappear with music.

http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/chapterb.html


The music is MIDI.  The execution of the music is Java Script.

enjoy

Frank Z
 --part1_129.50f744ea.2ed976c7_boundary-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Nov 27 00:08:57 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAR88nEr015947; Sat, 27 Nov 2004 00:08:49 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAR88lZa015932; Sat, 27 Nov 2004 00:08:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 00:08:47 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <410-22004116277730150@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: HTSC & LENR, Red Herring Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 01:07:30 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94085ecc0c9fb4bb3e143557401378fd094350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.8 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56566 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII You are getting close, Jones. :-) I think "Palladium loading" is a Red Herring to get around the fact that LENR-CANR is an Interfacial Potential Effect. Most likely, use of a Magnesium Anode (Sacrificial Cathodic Protection) and a Palladium Cathode with a LICl-D2O electrolyte will get more CF-OU bang for the buck than using a power supply. Same story for high current erosion of tungsten in an arc. Frederick Table .1 - Electromotive Series of Metals Metal on Formed Potential Lithium Li +2.96 Rubidium Rb +2.93 Potassium K +2.92 Strontium Sr +2.92 Barium Ba +2.90 Calcium Ca +2.87 Sodium Na +2.71 Magnesium Mg +2.40 Alumunium Al +1.70 Berylium Be +1.69 Manganese Mn +1.10 Zinc Zn +0.76 Chromium Cr +0.56 Iron (ferrous) FE +0.44 Cadmium Cd +0.40 Indium In +0.34 Thallium Tl +0.33 Cobalt Co +0.28 Nickel Ni +0.23 Tin Sn +0.14 Lead Pb +0.12 Iron (ferric) Fe +0.04 Hydrogen H 0.00 Antimony Sb -0.10 Bismuth Bi -0.30 Arsenic As -0.30 Copper (cupric) Cu -0.34 Copper (cuprous) Te -0.56 Tellurium Te -0.56 Silver Ag -0.80 Mercury Hg -0.80 Palladium Pd -0.82 Platinum Pt -0.86 Gold (auric) Au -1.36 Gold (aurous) Au -1.50 ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

 You are getting close, Jones.   :-)
 
I think "Palladium loading" is a Red Herring to get around the fact that
LENR-CANR is an Interfacial Potential Effect.
 
Most likely, use of a Magnesium Anode (Sacrificial Cathodic Protection) and
a Palladium Cathode with a LICl-D2O electrolyte will get more CF-OU bang for the buck
than using a power supply.
 
Same story for high current erosion of tungsten in an arc.
 
Frederick
 
Table .1 - Electromotive Series of Metals


Metal	                on Formed      Potential               

			
Lithium                 Li              +2.96
Rubidium                Rb              +2.93
Potassium               K               +2.92
Strontium               Sr              +2.92
Barium                  Ba              +2.90
Calcium                 Ca              +2.87
Sodium                  Na              +2.71
Magnesium               Mg              +2.40
Alumunium               Al              +1.70
Berylium                Be              +1.69
Manganese               Mn              +1.10
Zinc                    Zn              +0.76
Chromium                Cr              +0.56
Iron (ferrous)          FE              +0.44
Cadmium                 Cd              +0.40
Indium                  In              +0.34
Thallium                Tl              +0.33
Cobalt                  Co              +0.28
Nickel                  Ni              +0.23
Tin                     Sn              +0.14
Lead                    Pb              +0.12
Iron (ferric)           Fe              +0.04
Hydrogen                H                0.00
Antimony                Sb              -0.10
Bismuth                 Bi              -0.30
Arsenic                 As              -0.30
Copper (cupric)         Cu              -0.34
Copper (cuprous)        Te              -0.56
Tellurium               Te              -0.56
Silver                  Ag              -0.80
Mercury                 Hg              -0.80
Palladium               Pd              -0.82
Platinum                Pt              -0.86
Gold (auric)            Au              -1.36
Gold (aurous)           Au              -1.50
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Nov 27 01:14:00 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAR9Duhd022346; Sat, 27 Nov 2004 01:13:56 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAR9DsI7022330; Sat, 27 Nov 2004 01:13:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 01:13:54 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner@mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 00:20:55 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: HTSC & LENR Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56567 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 4:55 PM 11/26/4, Jones Beene wrote: >--- Horace Heffner wrote: > >> The good news is that *gaps* between superconductors >can be used to generate radiation by imposing a >potential across the gap. Unfortunately, the gap must >be small enough that electrons can tunnel back and >forth... > >Thanks for that information. This is encouraging... >especially for generation of terahertz radiation, >which passes through just about anything (including >presumably the HTSC itself), Well, 1 THz corresponds to about 0.3 mm wavelength, which is far thermal infrared. I expect some would be absorbed and some reflected, depending on the surface characteristics. I don't think even ordinary conductors are transparent to this frequency of radiation. It takes x-rays to penetrate a superconductor. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Nov 27 01:22:24 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAR9MHhd023466; Sat, 27 Nov 2004 01:22:18 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAR9MGZ4023451; Sat, 27 Nov 2004 01:22:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 01:22:16 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner@mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 00:29:18 -0900 To: "vortex-l" From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: HTSC & LENR, Red Herring Resent-Message-ID: <-RGGXC.A.TuF.IdEqBB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56568 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 1:07 AM 11/27/4, Frederick Sparber wrote: >I think "Palladium loading" is a Red Herring to get around the fact that >LENR-CANR is an Interfacial Potential Effect. There is a huge body of literature that says otherwise. How do you account for a major difference in results using H/Pd controls vs D/Pd for example? How do you account for observed changes in crystaline structure indicating thermal hot spots *inside* the cathode? Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Nov 27 05:25:28 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iARDPMhd005017; Sat, 27 Nov 2004 05:25:22 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iARDPJw1004997; Sat, 27 Nov 2004 05:25:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 05:25:19 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: <56ba584f-4e3b-46dc-b3ac-b1f909aa57cb> Message-ID: <001701c4d484$72ab3150$0745ccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: Subject: Re: HTSC & LENR, Red Herring Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 08:19:35 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56569 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace wrote: > At 1:07 AM 11/27/4, Frederick Sparber wrote: > > >I think "Palladium loading" is a Red Herring to get around the fact that > >LENR-CANR is an Interfacial Potential Effect. > > There is a huge body of literature that says otherwise. How do you account > for a major difference in results using H/Pd controls vs D/Pd for example? > How do you account for observed changes in crystaline structure indicating > thermal hot spots *inside* the cathode? Amen to Horace's comments. To which I may add the occasional extreme bursts of energy seen by very careful investigators, which led to holes burned in tables, and the precaution of dumping a very hot cell into a pail of water, only to have it evaporate several pailsful? Or the phenomenon of "heat after death" when the cathode stays hot for hours after the electrolyte has boiled away? Or the production of helium from a cell in a quantitiy conmeasurant with excess heat produced? Or the very well controlled, confirmed, transmutation of Cs to Pr by infusion of deuterium gas? Or the observation of excess heat and transmutation in situations with no electgric field? Frederick needs to do some homework at www.lenr-canr.org. Mike Carrell > > Regards, > > Horace Heffner > > > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Nov 27 06:36:01 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAREZshd018106; Sat, 27 Nov 2004 06:35:55 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAREZqMf018089; Sat, 27 Nov 2004 06:35:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 06:35:52 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <410-2200411627133435120@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: HTSC & LENR, Red Herring Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 07:34:35 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9404c806a94b4e1cf313e09503c917b5c95350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.120.162 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56570 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Must have been the tryptophan overload kicking in. :-) Frederick Mike Carrell wrote: > > Horace wrote: > > > At 1:07 AM 11/27/4, Frederick Sparber wrote: > > > > >I think "Palladium loading" is a Red Herring to get around the fact that > > >LENR-CANR is an Interfacial Potential Effect. > > > > There is a huge body of literature that says otherwise. How do you > account > > for a major difference in results using H/Pd controls vs D/Pd for example? > > How do you account for observed changes in crystaline structure indicating > > thermal hot spots *inside* the cathode? > > Amen to Horace's comments. To which I may add the occasional extreme bursts > of energy seen by very careful investigators, which led to holes burned in > tables, and the precaution of dumping a very hot cell into a pail of water, > only to have it evaporate several pailsful? Or the phenomenon of "heat after > death" when the cathode stays hot for hours after the electrolyte has boiled > away? Or the production of helium from a cell in a quantitiy conmeasurant > with excess heat produced? Or the very well controlled, confirmed, > transmutation of Cs to Pr by infusion of deuterium gas? Or the observation > of excess heat and transmutation in situations with no electgric field? > > Frederick needs to do some homework at www.lenr-canr.org. > > Mike Carrell > > > > > > Regards, > > > > Horace Heffner > > > > > > > > > > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Nov 27 09:14:07 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iARHDvEr013233; Sat, 27 Nov 2004 09:13:57 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iARHDt0S013220; Sat, 27 Nov 2004 09:13:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 09:13:55 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20041127171346.14315.qmail@web81110.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 09:13:46 -0800 (PST) From: Jones Beene Subject: "Red Herring" or "Mixed Grill" ? To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56571 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace wrote: >Frederick Sparber wrote: I think "Palladium loading" is a Red Herring to get around the fact that LENR-CANR is an Interfacial Potential Effect. > HH There is a huge body of literature that says otherwise. Well, we should all be aware that LENR is SO very diverse and often self-contradictory in the details that there is a "body of literature" that favors both sides of almost every relevant issue, this one included. Case in point. One of the few LENR papers on the Harvard site, which backs Fred's point explicitly... and I would not want to be the one to try to contradict Miley (although I think that both the arguments here are sound, but neither can be generalized and each depends on the details of the *particular experiment*.... >From King George his-self: "These results are consistent with the assumption of a Maxwellian proton gas in the surface electron layer of the host metal, resulting in a Debye length of few picometers which suppresses Coulomb interactions at longer distances. The reaction probability of Maxwellian fast eV-protons for nuclear reactions results in interaction times around 1000 seconds, similar to times for K-shell radioactivity. The reactions observed experimentally over weeks then represent a combined nuclear reaction process with the protons and host ions." http://adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/nph-bib_query?1998APS..DPP.U9P09H From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Nov 27 09:57:10 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iARHv3hd023912; Sat, 27 Nov 2004 09:57:03 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iARHv1uE023891; Sat, 27 Nov 2004 09:57:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 09:57:01 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <410-2200411627175622250@ix.netcom.com> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: aki@ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.1.47.0 (Windows) From: "Akira Kawasaki" To: "vortex-l" Subject: FW: WHAT'S NEW Friday, 26 Nov 04 Washington, DC Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 09:56:22 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: c4cc7f5f697e8746f66dc3a06d5924d8b902879101b2d4e6e16fad65acb3643ba7ce0e8f8d31aa3f350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.232.54.67 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56572 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: What's New >To: Akira Kawasaki Date: 11/26/2004 3:42:42 PM Subject: WHAT'S NEW Friday, 26 Nov 04 Washington, DC WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 26 Nov 04 Washington, DC 1. EMPTY SPACE: IS MOON-MARS A JUST A TASTE OF WHAT WE'RE IN FOR? To reach a deficit of $7.5 TRILLION in this session, Congress had to get down to business and make a lot of really bad spending decisions. Take Moon-Mars, for example. I like the moon; it was beautiful this morning as I drove to the office. Scientifically however, it has to be the least interesting destination in the heavens. As a launch platform to get to Mars it's just nuts. Mars is more interesting, but we have two robust geologists there already. If there's some reason to send frail humans, they sure haven't found it yet. NASA Administrator Sean O'Keefe said the election was a clear mandate for the President's Moon-Mars thing, but WN could find no mention of it by Bush since January, and Congress has held virtually no hearings on it. The APS Panel on Public Affairs just issued a Discussion Paper on Moon-Mars. The URL would take up the entire page, so go to http://www.aps.org/ and click on Moon-Mars Program in the column on the left. It warns that Moon-Mars would far exceed budget projections and jeopardize real NASA science. The Discussion Paper also urges the government to pay attention to recommendations on priorities in space from the National Academy of Sciences. You wouldn't think you'd have to tell them that, but that's the way it is. 2. BUNKER BUSTER BUSTED: OK, SO CONGRESS DID GET SOMETHING RIGHT. $27.6M for the Robust Nuclear Penetrator was eliminated because the Pentagon had no idea where to use such a bomb. The plan had been huge obstacle to nuclear non-proliferation. The Modern Pit Facility, which was seen as part of the bunker buster program, was cut back to just planning. The Advanced Concepts Initiative was also eliminated. It was meant to offer meaningful employment to frustrated young scientists with dreams of inventing new weapons of mass destruction. But was more often used by the Pentagon to support ideas that violate the laws of thermodynamics http://www.aps.org/WN/WN04/wn101504.cfm. 3. PROLIFERATION: IRAN REFUSES TO END NUCLEAR ENRICHMENT PROGRAM. Three days ago it seemed that Iran had agreed to terminate plans to enrich uranium. Having mastered the art of making headlines every day, Iran now says it will still operate 20 centrifuges for research. This gave new ammunition to the Bush administration, which claims Iran is hiding their nuclear weapons program. Iran defends its right to produce peaceful nuclear energy. 4. COLD, COLD FUSION: AND THE FEDERAL ADVISORY COMMITTEE ACT. Sunday's Washington Post Magazine had an article about a secret review of cold fusion http://www.aps.org/WN/WN04/wn091704.cfm#4 . A panel of scientists selected by DOE allegedly met with a small group of cold-fusion believers. No announcement, no reporters, no names of attendees. Panel members were instructed to comment individually to circumvent the Advisory Committee Act. If it was actually of any importance it would be truly outrageous. THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND. Opinions are the author's and not necessarily shared by the University of Maryland, but they should be. --- Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.aps.org/WN To subscribe, send a blank e-mail to: From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Nov 27 11:55:16 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iARJt7hd012374; Sat, 27 Nov 2004 11:55:11 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iARJt1Qc012334; Sat, 27 Nov 2004 11:55:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 11:55:01 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: "Red Herring" or "Mixed Grill" ? Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 14:54:24 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <20041127171346.14315.qmail@web81110.mail.yahoo.com> Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56573 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi All. Jones writes: >Well, we should all be aware that LENR is SO very >diverse and often self-contradictory in the details >that there is a "body of literature" that favors both >sides of almost every relevant issue, this one >included. Excellent point. For about as many papers on the LENR site point towards a surface effect rather than a bulk effect. It's quite possible both exist; the truth is the current data is sketchy and incomplete. Rather like the maps of the new world for those early explorers. Should we be arguing about the existance of the edge or the dragons ore should we focus on simply moving forward and mapping what we see regardless of how disturbing the results. I've always tended towards the surface explaination, too many of my own experiments and those of others I respect indicate this. This certainly does not preclude a bulk effect but given the history of the field doesn't it seem like one of the problems for progress is an early belief, a fixed idea, which may in fact be a fish of a familiar rouge??? Horace writes: >There is a huge body of literature that says otherwise. How do you account >for a major difference in results using H/Pd controls vs D/Pd for example? >How do you account for observed changes in crystaline structure indicating >thermal hot spots *inside* the cathode? How do you account for the huge body of literature that says otherwise? I have no real problem with both models, but I gather you may have one with the interfacial model. Or am I just overreading your post? K. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Nov 27 12:47:17 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iARKl7Er030229; Sat, 27 Nov 2004 12:47:07 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iARKl2cL030209; Sat, 27 Nov 2004 12:47:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 12:47:02 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner@mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 11:53:39 -0900 To: From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: RE: "Red Herring" or "Mixed Grill" ? Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56574 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 2:54 PM 11/27/4, Keith Nagel wrote: [snip] > ...For about as many papers on the LENR site >point towards a surface effect rather than a bulk effect. >It's quite possible both exist; the truth is the current >data is sketchy and incomplete. [snip] >Horace writes: >>There is a huge body of literature that says otherwise. How do you account >>for a major difference in results using H/Pd controls vs D/Pd for example? >>How do you account for observed changes in crystaline structure indicating >>thermal hot spots *inside* the cathode? > >How do you account for the huge body of literature that says otherwise? >I have no real problem with both models, but I gather you may have >one with the interfacial model. Or am I just overreading your post? My objection was to the concept that it is an "interface" effect, that overcoming the interface potentail drop obtains CF. (Actually, if the interface potential drop can be defeated then 2nd law violation might be achieved however, and handy free energy hydrogen evolution as well, and maybe this was the momentary tryptophan mindset. Using a sacrificial anode requires restoring the anode at no energy cost though.) We need to distinguish between interface, surface, and bulk effects for the conversation to make sense. I think of effects to several microns as a surface effect, or at least certainly to the depth the surface is changed by the electrolysis. Perhaps a fourth category is needed as well, i.e. "shallow surface". Alchemy-like LENR effects are certainly not limited to the actual surface, but rather extend to some depth. I do think Jones has a point that the full picture is not yet available. It was a bit brash of me to assume the interface is not a principle player, since it is involved in most surface effects and likely in immediate subsurface effects. My main point, however, was really that overcoming the *interface potential drop* is not the solution to CF, ie. to LENR. I do think creating an (extra) abundance of free electrons in the surface vicinity, by imposition of external E field, may be of use, as posted earlier. Another perspective on this is my own personal hope (or bias) that if electrolysis conditions can create a fruitful CF environment at a shallow surface of several microns then the conditions in that shallow environment might be manufactured in bulk. That hope is not justification for me to discount the possible role of the two atom thick interface in CF, however. Also, attempting to overcome the *interface potential drop* is an approach to be used if the excess heat is deemed to be independent of the LENR effects observed, and possibly an important part of approaches to hydrogen generation strategies. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Nov 27 13:48:29 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iARLmGEr008799; Sat, 27 Nov 2004 13:48:16 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iARLmECe008781; Sat, 27 Nov 2004 13:48:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 13:48:14 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20041127214803.25994.qmail@web81102.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 13:48:03 -0800 (PST) From: Jones Beene Subject: Microwaves vs Terawaves To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56575 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: What gets hotter - the "cold turkey" (10 degrees K) which is put into the freezer... or the identical turkey put into the microwave oven? A no-brainer unless we qualify the question to add... IF each turkey gets the same number of characteristic photons from its appliance? Assume the characteristic photon of the freezer is sub-IR at minus 5 degrees C. and the oven photon is at a frequency of 2.45 Ghz and no other conductive energy transfer is applicable. Obviously from the complicated "setup" of this poser - anyone with a bit of sophistication can guess that it is somewhat of a "trick" question, but do they really know why the freezer turkey heats up faster? Chefs, like sailors, would not necessarily make good "natural" physicists. This may be because of a particular mind-set, which is sensory. The energy with which sailors are accustomed to dealing, the sea, expresses itself in a radically different way than does the energy of physics - the photon. The longer the ocean wave, for instance, the more powerful the storm which caused it, and the harder it is to deal with in a small boat. Just the opposite is true with regard to the photon "waves." It's interesting that the two equations most famously associated with Einstein both assert equivalencies involving energy: E = mc^2 and E = hn, relate energy to two fundamental constants, lightspeed and Planck's constant. Of course, the latter equation is really an assertion about the partitioning of energy, since it refers to an elemental and "unbreakable" unit (or quantum) of energy - which is the photon. But that ratio, and the relationship of energy to wavelength is not the whole story in being able to maximize energy transfer to a particular target. A paradigm sensory shift happens in E = hn when we deal with two different systems - one where n (frequency) is a spectrum "spread", such as is visible light, and the second where n is "coherent" which means that all the photons are at *exactly* the same n. The result of this paradigm shift being that microwaves, which are not really heat waves, but can be better described as "cold waves" since their photon represents a temperature which is generally colder than any place on earth even the arctic, BUT which can nevertheless transfer and concentrate a lot of net energy rapidly into an appropriate target. But this transfer effect is more a function of "intensity" than underlying power. To try to verbalize this another way, a smaller amount of "intense cold" (if coherent and fully absorbed) can raise the temperature of a target faster than a much larger amount randomized heat waves, which are not efficiently absorbed. In the case of the "cold turkey" both sub IR and microwaves are easily fully absorbed, whereas higher energy such as lightwaves would not be absorbed but blocked by a surface interface. And... (getting a little closer to the ultimate point of this post) if we took the average "freezer photon" and made it coherent, then that turkey would heat up incredibly fast - like a microwave oven on steroids. Imagine heating a frozen TV dinner in 5 seconds instead of 5 minutes - it could happen with coherent terawaves (if not preceded by an explosion), which kind of oven, unfortunately does not exist as a commercial resource now. Light (visible) is the frequency spectrum electromagnetic wave with which are most familiar, giving an energy per photon for which we have a visceral understanding - i.e. sunburn. Radio waves at the frequency of the household microwave oven are interesting in this context, as they are far weaker - but coherent. That is, each photon of visible light can be a million times more energetic than the microwave photon but we may not appreciate that in a sensory way until the light itself becomes equally "coherent"... as it does in a laser. The trouble with higher frequency waves like light which have a higher net energy, is that they may just heat the surface, or else if really high frequency - just pass right through your target object or reflect off of it. X-rays, for example would go through organic material and not be "felt" anywhere near as intensely as IR, which we associate with heat. This is why one often hears it said in regard to radioactive material - if it feels "warm" you are already in deep trouble. All of this as a preamble to the percieved *need* for a terahertz light source. And, as they say on the streets, need is a mother...." or was that "necessity is the mother of invention" ? For the inventor out there, the motherless ones needing a "goal" which they can immediately relate to (such as being expressed as "$$$$" ) then just think for a moment about this previous statement. "Imagine heating a frozen TV dinner in 5 seconds instead of 5 minutes" - it could (?) happen with coherent terawaves, which unfortunately do not exist as a commercial resource now, so no one only really has much more than a glimpse at all the potential applications... Not to mention the application which has currently infatuated this particular observer... that being the distinct possibility that terawaves, which "just" coincidentally may happen to exist precisely at a QM resonance point for deuterium condensation in a metal matrix, could eventually be the "enabling technoloy" which is required to bring LENR out of the lab and into everyday life... Jones Eat your heart out, James Burke. Did you ever imagine that the WWW itself would be the "enabling technology" for not just faster connections but a paradigm shift in connections: that being "instigated connections" (as opposed to partially random ) ... as in providing the "enabling technology" for the free-flow of unedited (maybe even pathological) information, providing the "enabling technology" for allowing a few fringe observers to suggest an "enabling technology" for such societal needs as "faster TV diners," thus providing the "enabling technology" (hopefully) for a few inventors to discover a robust kind of LENR which wll eventaually wean an increasingly dependent World off of its unholy reliance on fossil fuels... ... stayed tuned for that episode. I hope it is scheduled before the twelfth ... From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Nov 27 14:01:20 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iARM1Fhd000582; Sat, 27 Nov 2004 14:01:15 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iARM1CBN000563; Sat, 27 Nov 2004 14:01:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 14:01:12 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <410-220041162720595550@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: "Red Herring" or "Mixed Grill" ? Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 14:59:55 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9407a87d3d5663b02f48729e5ca64f1d974350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.159.100 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56576 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner writes: > > My objection was to the concept that it is an "interface" effect, that > overcoming the interface potential drop obtains CF. (Actually, if the > interface potential drop can be defeated then 2nd law violation might be > achieved however, and handy free energy hydrogen evolution as well, and > maybe this was the momentary tryptophan mindset. Using a sacrificial anode > requires restoring the anode at no energy cost though.) > I would certainly hope that CF/OU reactions across/at an interface (Double Layer) violates the 2nd law. If enough OU energy is available to get power-plant-transmission energy back, it stands to reason that Magnesium or Zinc Chloride (sacrificial anodes) can be restored at the same or less energy cost, thus possibly making the cells easily transportable (mobile?). > Snip. > Frederick > > Regards, > > Horace Heffner > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Nov 27 17:14:34 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAS1ETEr014195; Sat, 27 Nov 2004 17:14:29 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAS1D7Zh013852; Sat, 27 Nov 2004 17:13:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 17:13:07 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner@mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 16:19:58 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: RE: "Red Herring" or "Mixed Grill" ? Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56577 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 2:59 PM 11/27/4, Frederick Sparber wrote: >I would certainly hope that CF/OU reactions across/at an interface (Double >Layer) violates the 2nd law. But that is the issue at hand ... is the interface an essential part of LENR or only there because of the choice of electrolysis as the means of loading the cathode. Also, a sacrificial anode may avoid the use of batteries to drive portable electrolysis, but may also mess up the cathode surface with deposits. This is why platinum is normally used for an anode - because it is a metal not tending to disslove when used as an anode. Another perspective on this might be the use of a sacrificial anode to perpetually seal D2 into a cathode once it is loaded. It would have the dual roles of depositing a sealing metal plus maintaining a bias, and thus would need to have only a nominal drain on the anode. The anode of choice would then produce slightly less than but almost exactly the potential required to evolve hydrogen. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Nov 27 19:14:25 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAS3EAEr003143; Sat, 27 Nov 2004 19:14:10 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAS3Cc2Y002802; Sat, 27 Nov 2004 19:12:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 19:12:38 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: "Red Herring" or "Mixed Grill" ? Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 14:12:28 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id iAS3CXEr002772 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56578 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Horace Heffner's message of Sat, 27 Nov 2004 16:19:58 -0900: Hi, [snip] >Another perspective on this might be the use of a sacrificial anode to >perpetually seal D2 into a cathode once it is loaded. It would have the >dual roles of depositing a sealing metal plus maintaining a bias, and thus >would need to have only a nominal drain on the anode. The anode of choice >would then produce slightly less than but almost exactly the potential >required to evolve hydrogen. [snip] Interestingly, the electronegativity of Pd exactly equals that of hydrogen, as also does that of iridium. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Nov 27 19:36:59 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAS3aqEr007042; Sat, 27 Nov 2004 19:36:53 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAS3ZVfB006789; Sat, 27 Nov 2004 19:35:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 19:35:31 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <410-22004110282349830@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: "Red Herring" or "Mixed Grill" ? Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 20:34:09 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940b984aa9ee16583d49bea460409cf08f5350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.165.11 Resent-Message-ID: <3z6aMD.A.7pB.DeUqBB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56579 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: > > At 2:59 PM 11/27/4, Frederick Sparber wrote: > > >I would certainly hope that CF/OU reactions across/at an interface (Double > >Layer) violates the 2nd law. > > Also, a sacrificial anode may avoid the use of > batteries to drive portable electrolysis, but may also mess up the cathode > surface with deposits. This is why platinum is normally used for an anode - > because it is a metal not tending to disslove when used as an anode. > Why would Magnesium mess up the cathode any more than Lithium or Potassium, both of which can form intermetallic compounds with the Palladium surface? You might study up on this with "Hansen's Constitution of Binary Alloys". > > Another perspective on this might be the use of a sacrificial anode to > perpetually seal D2 into a cathode once it is loaded. It would have the > dual roles of depositing a sealing metal plus maintaining a bias, and thus > would need to have only a nominal drain on the anode. The anode of choice > would then produce slightly less than but almost exactly the potential > required to evolve hydrogen. Yes. That is why I posted this Electromotive Series Table. Titanium should be around minus 1.45 volts if I recall correctly. Is that part of why Nickel and Titanium are interesting cathode materials? Frederick Electromotive Series of Metals Metal on Formed Potential Lithium Li +2.96 Rubidium Rb +2.93 Potassium K +2.92 Strontium Sr +2.92 Barium Ba +2.90 Calcium Ca +2.87 Sodium Na +2.71 Magnesium Mg +2.40 Alumunium Al +1.70 Berylium Be +1.69 Manganese Mn +1.10 Zinc Zn +0.76 Chromium Cr +0.56 Iron (ferrous) FE +0.44 Cadmium Cd +0.40 Indium In +0.34 Thallium Tl +0.33 Cobalt Co +0.28 Nickel Ni +0.23 Tin Sn +0.14 Lead Pb +0.12 Iron (ferric) Fe +0.04 Hydrogen H 0.00 Antimony Sb -0.10 Bismuth Bi -0.30 Arsenic As -0.30 Copper (cupric) Cu -0.34 Copper (cuprous) Te -0.56 Tellurium Te -0.56 Silver Ag -0.80 Mercury Hg -0.80 Palladium Pd -0.82 Platinum Pt -0.86 Gold (auric) Au -1.36 Gold (aurous) Au -1.50 > > Regards, > > Horace Heffner > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Nov 27 20:16:21 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAS4GIhd027290; Sat, 27 Nov 2004 20:16:18 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAS4EqlN027122; Sat, 27 Nov 2004 20:14:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 20:14:52 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 23:11:58 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: CF and Orientation . To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: <2AbJHD.A.tnG.8CVqBB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56580 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi, This is my first post. I was wondering if anyone in CF community has looked for evidence of a correlation between the orientation of a CF cell and the amount of excess heat produced. Perhaps the performance of a CF cell would change if the cell or some of its parts were rotated 90 degrees or even spun. This questions are based on the speculation that the direction of gravity (rather than the magnitude of gravity) may effect the performance of CF cells. Harry Veeder From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Nov 27 22:48:16 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAS6m4Mg024960; Sat, 27 Nov 2004 22:48:04 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAS6m2Q0024950; Sat, 27 Nov 2004 22:48:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 22:48:02 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner@mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 21:54:49 -0900 To: fjsparber@earthlink.net, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: RE: "Red Herring" or "Mixed Grill" ? Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56581 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 8:34 PM 11/27/4, Frederick Sparber wrote: >Horace Heffner wrote: >> >> At 2:59 PM 11/27/4, Frederick Sparber wrote: >> >> >I would certainly hope that CF/OU reactions across/at an interface >(Double >> >Layer) violates the 2nd law. >> >> Also, a sacrificial anode may avoid the use of >> batteries to drive portable electrolysis, but may also mess up the cathode >> surface with deposits. This is why platinum is normally used for an anode >- >> because it is a metal not tending to disslove when used as an anode. >> >Why would Magnesium mess up the cathode any more than Lithium or Potassium, >both of which can form intermetallic compounds with the Palladium surface? Based on my dislexic spelling of dissolve above I am compelled to say it is because magnesium is more affectionate with water than platinum and less affectionate than lithium or potassium. Lithium and potassium are far more reactive with water than magnesium. However, I do recall reading that lithium is indeed adsorbed by palladium and does diffuse through it during electrolysis, though id diffuses slowly and thereby diminshes the diffusion rate of hydrogen. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Nov 27 22:57:59 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAS6vsdU026729; Sat, 27 Nov 2004 22:57:55 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAS6vqaI026711; Sat, 27 Nov 2004 22:57:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 22:57:52 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner@mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 22:04:38 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: CF and Orientation . Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56582 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:11 PM 11/27/4, Harry Veeder wrote: >Hi, > >This is my first post. > >I was wondering if anyone in CF community has looked for evidence of a >correlation between the orientation of a CF cell and the amount of excess >heat produced. > >Perhaps the performance of a CF cell would change if the cell or some of its >parts were rotated 90 degrees or even spun. > >This questions are based on the speculation that the direction of gravity >(rather than the magnitude of gravity) may effect the performance of CF >cells. > >Harry Veeder I don't know of any gravitational effects related to actual CF. However, Mitchell Schwartz, who posts here sometimes and is publiher of COLD FUSION TIMES, has published on the existence of *calorimetry anomalies* relating to gravity. Issues related to convection and stratification are important to the design of reliable calorimeters. Improperly designed calorimeters can give false data regarding CF. Calorimetry is vitally important to the study of CF because the heat signature of CF does not appear concurrent with the high energy particle emissions characteristic of hot fusion. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Nov 27 23:04:05 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAS73vMg028084; Sat, 27 Nov 2004 23:03:57 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAS73swc028054; Sat, 27 Nov 2004 23:03:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 23:03:54 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner@mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 22:10:57 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: CF and Orientation . Resent-Message-ID: <3aX8sC.A.S2G.ZhXqBB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56583 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Excuse me! That is Mitchell Swartz who posts here sometimes and is publiher of COLD FUSION TIMES and who has published on the existence of *calorimetric anomalies* relating to gravity. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Nov 27 23:25:24 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAS7PJdU031275; Sat, 27 Nov 2004 23:25:20 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAS7PI49031262; Sat, 27 Nov 2004 23:25:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 23:25:18 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner@mail.mtaonline.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 22:32:22 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: RE: "Red Herring" or "Mixed Grill" ? Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56584 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: An alternative approach to sustaining loading, once achieved, might be to substitute a low conductivity electrolyte and drive the electrolysis at high voltage and very low current. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Nov 28 02:17:52 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iASAHhMg011061; Sun, 28 Nov 2004 02:17:43 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iASAHcFm011019; Sun, 28 Nov 2004 02:17:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 02:17:38 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <009f01c4d533$76039090$972febdc@Inspiron1100> From: "Geoff Haselhurst" To: Subject: Hello from the Wave Structure of Matter Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 18:17:19 +0800 Organization: Space and Motion - Wave Structure of Matter MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_009A_01C4D576.7F9D77E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: <5z28UC.A.HsC.BXaqBB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56585 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_009A_01C4D576.7F9D77E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Vortex theorists, I received a nice letter from Colin (below) that I have given a = (slightly) long reply to, and which explains my presence here. I = apologise if I come across as absolute (about space and its properties) = and hope that i do not offend you too much with my criticisms (see = letter below). I wish you all the best, and think these 'fringe / = alternative' groups ( vortex group, WSM group) are important to discuss = information that is currently ignored by the mainstream science. Will enjoy reading your posts, but will not be able to contribute much = as i have a rather large website that is in great need of work. Sincerely, Geoff Haselhurst http://www.spaceandmotion.com PS - I did read the posting guidlines (which are good) - sorry if this = email is a bit long. Hi Colin, Thanks for your letter. Cold fusion is both interesting and important considering the state of = our world.=20 I wrote to Ed Storms (nice guy) a while back as I used some of his = article on the Open-Site encyclopaedia where I am an editor in the = physics / philosophy sections (as well as on my own site, as quoted = below).=20 I am glad that you have joined the WSM group. Like you I read a lot of posts, but do not have time to reply to most. = And as I do not devote enough time to this group (as a good moderator = should) thus it tends to drift about with no real direction or = organisation. And like many groups i suspect, it is largely dominated by = the ideas of a handful of (WSM) theorists whose ideas are similar to = Milo Wolff and I, but differ in some important ways that i = (frustratingly) think cause confusion and make it difficult for the WSM = to move forward with any harmony. The good and the bad of a discussion = group I guess - hopefully once I have finished revising my website (over = next 6 to 12 months) I will have more time for the group. As I am cc = this to WSM group! I should also emphasise that I have great respect for = those in the group who have contributed their time and talents over the = past year (more a criticism of me as moderator!).=20 With respect to Vortex theory I also have a page on that which is very = critical of the idea of space 'flowing'. I must rewrite it soon as it is = poorly written at the moment and i do not really want to offend vortex = theorists!, even though i disagree with them at a fundamental = metaphysical level. As a philosopher / metaphysicist i am very dominated = by the reasoning that reality must be founded on One thing / substance = existing which causes and connects the many things that we experience. = As Leibniz writes; Reality cannot be found except in One single source, because of the = interconnection of all things with one another. I do not conceive of any reality at all as without genuine unity. = (Gottfried Leibniz, 1670) This unity of reality is central to both philosophy and metaphysics, = that truth requires knowledge of necessary connections between things. = The WSM explains this connection, but only if we assume space is One = continuously connected wave medium - thus it has no parts, and it cannot = flow (which is an empirical thing, founded on our observations of = loosely connected wave centers, as I see metaphysics / WSM). So it seems that WSM and Vortex theory both agree that matter is a = structure of space, that particles and time are both human = constructions, caused by the motion of space. The difference is that WSM = is founded on wave motion of a nearly rigid (slightly elastic) space, Vs = Vortex theory's motion of space itself (which I don't see as possible, = or having any ultimate meaning.) This is how I see it at least. I also strongly believe that it is pretty much impossible to change a = person's mind once their opinion is formed. (I do not think in general = humans are very good philosophers! even though they are generally nice). = While I try to be a good philosopher I realise that these human = limitations of our mind also apply to me! But I will join the vortex group and try and post a few things, as their = thoughts will be interesting, and I think it is important that cold = fusion theorists consider the WSM as a way of explaining why resonance = and environment play such a large part in LENR. Again, thank you for such a nice letter. It is encouraging for me to = realise that there are people who are interested in understanding the = physical reality of our world (and its useful manifestations). All the best, Geoff cc Milo Wolff, WSM Discussion Group -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- Dear Geoff, Karene, I'm forwarding part of a post by Jones Been over to you just in case you = wish to join the Vortex forum, which also deals with an unusually good = level of analysis of some subjects that you display on your web site. = IMO, innovative ideas and knowledge from it's members, mostly LENR, but = anything unusual or interesting regarding energy or the nature of space = or gravity seems to be grist. Nothing is taboo but rarely are UFO's = spoken about unless it's a reference to a scientific study of some kind. = (Not that there is anything wrong with that :) Rarely do I see sneering = or a flame war. Most disagreements are cordial, or are discovered to be = a choice of words needing clarification. Most of the long term members = are now old friends. It is maintained by Bill Beaty and when Vortex = started many CF researchers were members.=20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D a.. From: Jones Beene (view other messages by this author)=20 b.. Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 13:47:00=20 QUOTE: "[...] The applet is near the top of: " "This site is maintained by a fellow (from Oz) named Geoff Haselhurst = (who I'm surprised has not found this forum yet) and who has this part = of his website dedicated to LENR, along with metaphysics and other weird and wonderful = ideas. [...]" =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D (BTW, I am not a scientist myself, just a layman interested in gravity = and space. I have been on the Vortex forum for over 10 years,=20 (, if you wish to subscribe.) but I only lurk there, rarely posting, just reading. Therein I have been = watching this new science of Cold Fusion going through it's birth = pangs.. and btw I have just now joined your Yahoo Group The Wave = Structure of Matter. Thank you :-) Best Regards, Colin ------=_NextPart_000_009A_01C4D576.7F9D77E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello Vortex theorists,
I received a nice letter from Colin (below) that I have given a = (slightly)=20 long reply to, and which explains my presence here. I apologise if I = come across=20 as absolute (about space and its properties) and hope that i do not = offend you=20 too much with my criticisms (see letter below). I wish you all the best, = and=20 think these 'fringe / alternative' groups ( vortex group, WSM = group) are=20 important to discuss information that is currently ignored by the = mainstream=20 science.
Will enjoy reading your posts, but will not be able to contribute = much as i=20 have a rather large website that is in great need of work.
Sincerely,
Geoff Haselhurst
http://www.spaceandmotion.com<= /DIV>
 
PS - I did read the posting guidlines (which are good) - sorry if = this=20 email is a bit long.
 
Hi Colin,
Thanks for your letter.
Cold fusion is both interesting and important = considering=20 the state of our world.
I wrote to Ed Storms (nice guy) a while back as = I used=20 some of his article on the Open-Site encyclopaedia where I am = an editor in=20 the physics / philosophy sections (as well as on my own site, as quoted = below).=20
 
I am glad that you have joined the WSM = group.
Like you I read a lot of posts, but do not have = time to=20 reply to most.  And as I do not devote enough time to this = group (as a=20 good moderator should) thus it tends to drift about with no real = direction or=20 organisation. And like many groups i suspect, it is largely = dominated by=20 the ideas of a handful of (WSM) theorists whose ideas are similar to = Milo Wolff=20 and I, but differ in some important ways that i (frustratingly) think = cause=20 confusion and make it difficult for the WSM to move forward with any = harmony.=20 The good and the bad of a discussion group I guess - hopefully once I = have=20 finished revising my website (over next 6 to 12 months) I will have = more=20 time for the group.  As I am cc this to WSM group! I should = also=20 emphasise that I have great respect for those in the group who have = contributed=20 their time and talents over the past year (more a criticism of me as=20 moderator!).
 
With respect to Vortex theory I also have a page = on that=20 which is very critical of the idea of space 'flowing'. I must rewrite it = soon as=20 it is poorly written at the moment and i do not really want to offend = vortex=20 theorists!, even though i disagree with them at a fundamental = metaphysical=20 level. As a philosopher / metaphysicist i am very dominated by the = reasoning=20 that reality must be founded on One thing / substance existing which = causes and=20 connects the many things that we experience. As Leibniz = writes;
Reality cannot be = found except in=20 One single source, because of the interconnection of all things with one = another.
I do not conceive of any reality at all as without genuine = unity.=20 (Gottfried Leibniz, 1670)
 
This unity of reality is central to both = philosophy and=20 metaphysics, that truth requires knowledge of necessary connections = between=20 things. The WSM explains this connection, but only if we assume space is = One=20 continuously connected wave medium - thus it has no parts, and it cannot = flow=20 (which is an empirical thing, founded on our observations of loosely = connected=20 wave centers, as I see metaphysics / WSM).
So it seems that WSM and Vortex theory both = agree that=20 matter is a structure of space, that particles and time are both human=20 constructions, caused by the motion of space. The difference is that WSM = is=20 founded on wave motion of a nearly rigid (slightly elastic) space, Vs = Vortex=20 theory's motion of space itself (which I don't see as possible, or = having=20 any ultimate meaning.)
This is how I see it at least.
 
I also strongly believe that it is pretty much = impossible=20 to change a person's mind once their opinion is formed. (I do not think = in=20 general humans are very good philosophers! even though they are = generally nice).=20 While I try to be a good philosopher I realise that these = human limitations=20 of our mind also apply to me!
But I will join the vortex group and try and = post a few=20 things, as their thoughts will be interesting, and I think it is = important that=20 cold fusion theorists consider the WSM as a way of explaining why = resonance and=20 environment play such a large part in LENR.
 
Again, thank you for such a nice letter. It is = encouraging=20 for me to realise that there are people who are interested in = understanding the=20 physical reality of our world (and its useful = manifestations).
All the best,
Geoff
 
cc Milo Wolff, WSM Discussion Group
 

Dear Geoff, = Karene,

I'm=20 forwarding part of a post by Jones Been over to you just in case = you wish=20 to join the Vortex forum, which also deals with an unusually good level = of=20 analysis of some subjects that you display on your web site. IMO, = innovative=20 ideas and knowledge from it's members, mostly LENR, but anything unusual = or=20 interesting regarding energy or the nature of space or gravity seems to = be=20 grist. Nothing is taboo but rarely are UFO's spoken about unless it's a=20 reference to a scientific study of some kind. (Not that there is = anything wrong=20 with that :)  Rarely do I see sneering or a flame war. Most = disagreements=20 are cordial, or are discovered to be a choice of words needing=20 clarification. Most of the long term members are now old friends. It is=20 maintained by Bill Beaty and when Vortex started many CF researchers = were=20 members.
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
<http://www.escribe.com/science/vortex/m32377.html= >
QUOTE:
"[...]
The applet is near the top of:
<http://www.spaceandmotion.com/Alternative-Energy-Cold-Fusion=
.htm>"


"This site is maintained by a fellow (from Oz) named Geoff Haselhurst =
(who I'm surprised has not found this forum yet) and who has =
this part of his website
dedicated to LENR, along with metaphysics and other weird and wonderful =
ideas.
[...]"
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

(BTW, I am not a = scientist myself, just a=20 layman interested in gravity and space. I have been on the Vortex forum = for over=20 10 years,
(<http://www.amasci.com/weird/wvort.html>, if you wish to subscribe.)
but I only lurk = there,=20 rarely posting, just reading. Therein I have been watching this new = science of=20 Cold Fusion going through it's birth pangs..  and btw I have just = now=20 joined your Yahoo Group The Wave Structure of Matter.
Thank you :-)
Best=20 Regards,
Colin
------=_NextPart_000_009A_01C4D576.7F9D77E0-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Nov 28 03:02:28 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iASB2NdU005234; Sun, 28 Nov 2004 03:02:23 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iASB2Kq2005227; Sun, 28 Nov 2004 03:02:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 03:02:20 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <410-2200411028101330@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: RE: "Red Herring" or "Mixed Grill" ? Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 04:01:03 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940178b73b5b22eb78c3f489a78beec26ab350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.245 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56586 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: > > However, I do recall reading that > lithium is indeed adsorbed by palladium and does diffuse through it during > electrolysis, though id diffuses slowly and thereby diminshes the diffusion > rate of hydrogen. > The 1H-1 or 1H-2 reaction with 3Li-6 or 3Li-7 in the Pd lattice could well explain the gammaless presence of Helium and/or Tritium (a sensitive issue in certain quarters) plus an occasional "thermalized neutron" leaving the D-D ---> 2He4 plus 24 Mev Gamma flap as another Red Herring. Frederick > > Regards, > > Horace Heffner > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Nov 28 03:38:58 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iASBcndU010644; Sun, 28 Nov 2004 03:38:54 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iASBcnXT010634; Sun, 28 Nov 2004 03:38:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 03:38:49 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20041128034153.00b1e3d0@mail.dlsi.net> X-Sender: steven%newenergytimes.com@mail.dlsi.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 03:44:08 -0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: CF and Orientation . In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56587 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Harry, Welcome to Vortex. Dennis Letts has performed some experimentation with magnets, at a certain orientation, surrounding a cf cell. Perhaps others have as well. Steve From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Nov 28 08:40:07 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iASGdnMg015817; Sun, 28 Nov 2004 08:39:49 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iASGdkAJ015795; Sun, 28 Nov 2004 08:39:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 08:39:46 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner@mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 07:46:49 -0900 To: "vortex-l" From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: RE: "Red Herring" or "Mixed Grill" ? Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56588 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 4:01 AM 11/28/4, Frederick Sparber wrote: >Horace Heffner wrote: >> >> However, I do recall reading that >> lithium is indeed adsorbed by palladium and does diffuse through it during >> electrolysis, though id diffuses slowly and thereby diminshes the >diffusion >> rate of hydrogen. >> >The 1H-1 or 1H-2 reaction with 3Li-6 or 3Li-7 in the Pd lattice could well >explain the > gammaless presence of Helium and/or Tritium (a sensitive issue in certain >quarters) plus an >occasional "thermalized neutron" leaving the D-D ---> 2He4 plus 24 Mev >Gamma flap as another Red Herring. Yes, LENR with Li seems to be a good candidate to achieve via electron catalysis as well, though it takes more than one electron to pull off. The necessity of Li to CF was discussed early on because P&F used Li2SO4 electrolyte. For this reason KOH and other electrolytes were tried, with some positive excess heat and LENR results as well. Discussions of the posible role of Li in plugging up the lattice and thereby increasing the rate of fugacity buildup near the cathode surface I think may well have led to the use of thin films backed by Cu or Au, which do a much better job of providing a hydrogen barrier. The use of thin films greatly reduced the minimum required experiment time by providing a fast loading time. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Nov 28 08:40:57 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iASGerdU031325; Sun, 28 Nov 2004 08:40:53 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iASGeehW031263; Sun, 28 Nov 2004 08:40:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 08:40:40 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20041128164034.27178.qmail@web81101.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 08:40:34 -0800 (PST) From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: Hello from the Wave Structure of Matter To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <009f01c4d533$76039090$972febdc@Inspiron1100> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56589 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- Geoff Haselhurst wrote: > Will enjoy reading your posts, but will not be able > to contribute much as i have a rather large website > that is in great need of work. > Sincerely, > Geoff Haselhurst > http://www.spaceandmotion.com Greetings, You have done a nice job on your website, and probably get way too little in the form of recognition from its world-wide audience. Thanks for keeping it going.... Many who are influenced by your work, and appreciative, will nevertheless not take the time to comment, and instead will probably "borrow" your ideas with impunity. Like the other kind of "surfing," the beneficiaries of free information-availability often take too much for granted. You may find that this group is somewhat more oriented towards presenting alternate speculation and hypothesis, which might better serve to explain anomalies, especially those in LENR (low energy nuclear reactions) rather than in supporting or developing any one theory. The group definitely seems oriented toward trying to isolate aspects of any theory (the aspects relating to energy) and trying to find ways to test that in experiment. Don't want to put you on the spot with an immediate off-the-wall question, but... The obvious unknown which many of us would have in regard to using or applying WSM to alternative energy research would be: do you see any components of WSM which can be tested experimentally, and which might lead to improvements in either extracting energy from previously unused sources, or in maximizing the way we extract energy from the common sources? Regards, Jones Beene From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Nov 28 11:24:56 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iASJOmMg024207; Sun, 28 Nov 2004 11:24:48 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iASJONbh024109; Sun, 28 Nov 2004 11:24:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 11:24:23 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 14:21:53 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: CF and Orientation . In-reply-to: To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: <8tS3eB.A.p4F.mXiqBB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56590 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: on 11/28/04 2:04 AM, Horace Heffner at hheffner@mtaonline.net wrote: > At 11:11 PM 11/27/4, Harry Veeder wrote: >> Hi, >> >> This is my first post. >> >> I was wondering if anyone in CF community has looked for evidence of a >> correlation between the orientation of a CF cell and the amount of excess >> heat produced. >> >> Perhaps the performance of a CF cell would change if the cell or some of its >> parts were rotated 90 degrees or even spun. >> >> This questions are based on the speculation that the direction of gravity >> (rather than the magnitude of gravity) may effect the performance of CF >> cells. >> >> Harry Veeder > > > I don't know of any gravitational effects related to actual CF. However, > Mitchell Schwartz, who posts here sometimes and is publiher of COLD FUSION > TIMES, has published on the existence of *calorimetry anomalies* relating > to gravity. Issues related to convection and stratification are important > to the design of reliable calorimeters. Improperly designed calorimeters > can give false data regarding CF. Calorimetry is vitally important to the > study of CF because the heat signature of CF does not appear concurrent > with the high energy particle emissions characteristic of hot fusion. > > Regards, > > Horace Heffner Thanks, but please don't get me wrong. I am not insinuating that gravity is generating misleading calorimetric measurements. Rather I am suggesting gravity plays a significant role in the creation of excess heat, even though the leading theories of gravity imply it can be ignored. Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Nov 28 12:34:43 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iASKYcdU019233; Sun, 28 Nov 2004 12:34:38 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iASKYaVS019219; Sun, 28 Nov 2004 12:34:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 12:34:36 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 14:55:56 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: CF and Orientation . In-reply-to: <5.2.0.9.2.20041128034153.00b1e3d0@mail.dlsi.net> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56591 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: on 11/28/04 6:44 AM, Steven Krivit at steven@newenergytimes.com wrote: > Harry, > > Welcome to Vortex. > Dennis Letts has performed some experimentation with magnets, at a certain > orientation, surrounding a cf cell. > Perhaps others have as well. > > Steve > Thank you for the welcome. My question concerns the orientation of a CF cell and its parts relative to to the direction of gravity (i.e. relative to a level surface). BTW, are lists members aware of the experimental and theoretical work of Peter Fred? He maintains there is a relationship between gravity and the flow of heat. If you would like more more information, please see Peter Fred's website www.thermal-force.com/Copper.htm Harry Veeder From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Nov 28 16:47:41 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAT0lWMg014887; Sun, 28 Nov 2004 16:47:33 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAT0lGJV014784; Sun, 28 Nov 2004 16:47:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 16:47:16 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: FZNIDARSIC@aol.com Message-ID: <126.511f1330.2edbcb8c@aol.com> Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 19:47:08 EST Subject: off topic..mad about software registration.......... To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_126.511f1330.2edbcb8c_boundary" X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6808 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56592 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --part1_126.511f1330.2edbcb8c_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I purchased some software. I paid the required $50 for it. In order to use it requires registration, The registration requires my name, address, email address, and birthday. It then tries to phone in the information. My birthday and email address is my business. If I don't agree it does not work. If I put in false information and check the contract I could end up in a legal bind. I going to send it back to factory and ask for my money back. I''ve had it. We need a users revolt. At minimum the box should list the hidden cost of the confidential information that needs to be divulged to use the product. I then might have purchased something else. Frank Z --part1_126.511f1330.2edbcb8c_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I purchased some software.  I=20= paid the required $50 for it.  In order to use it requires registration= ,  The registration requires my name, address, email address, and birth= day.  It then tries to phone in the information.  My birthday and=20= email address is my business.  If I don't agree it does not work. = If I put in false information and check the contract I could end up in a le= gal bind.

I going to send it back to factory and ask for my money back.  I''ve ha= d it.  We need a users revolt.  At minimum the box should list the= hidden cost of the confidential information that needs to be divulged to us= e the product.  I then might have purchased something else.


Frank Z --part1_126.511f1330.2edbcb8c_boundary-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Nov 28 17:19:24 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAT1JCMg023110; Sun, 28 Nov 2004 17:19:13 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAT1JAw7023095; Sun, 28 Nov 2004 17:19:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 17:19:10 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner@mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 16:25:59 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: CF and Orientation . Resent-Message-ID: <-zCDTD.A.zoF.OknqBB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56593 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 2:21 PM 11/28/4, Harry Veeder wrote: >Thanks, but please don't get me wrong. >I am not insinuating that gravity is generating misleading calorimetric >measurements. Yes, understood, but I am asserting that there in fact is good evidence gravity does play a role if calorimeters are not properly designed. >Rather I am suggesting gravity plays a significant role in the >creation of excess heat, even though the leading theories of gravity imply >it can be ignored. Do you have any experimental or theoretical evidence to support that? Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Nov 28 17:24:08 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAT1NtMg024133; Sun, 28 Nov 2004 17:23:55 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAT1NrMd024104; Sun, 28 Nov 2004 17:23:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 17:23:53 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002201c4d5b2$1503ebd0$0100007f@xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Fringe/ alternate groups Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 19:23:12 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001E_01C4D57F.B375EF30"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.5 required=4.0 tests=HTML_40_50,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56594 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C4D57F.B375EF30 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_001F_01C4D57F.B375EF30" ------=_NextPart_001_001F_01C4D57F.B375EF30 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankI am "shocked, shocked" to learn there is physics being discussed = in this group. Thanks to Goeff Haselhurst for bringing this to my = attention.=20 Geoff, your WSM is an interesting site, congratulations on the hard work = and success. The fringe/ alternate groups need to stick together, = perhaps you could loan one of your models for some basic research in... errr.. anatomy. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_001F_01C4D57F.B375EF30 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
I am "shocked, shocked" to learn there = is physics=20 being discussed in this group. Thanks to Goeff Haselhurst for bringing = this to=20 my attention.
Geoff, your WSM is an interesting site, = congratulations=20 on the hard work and success. The fringe/ alternate groups need to = stick=20 together, perhaps you could loan one of your models for some basic = research=20 in...
errr.. anatomy.
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_001F_01C4D57F.B375EF30-- ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C4D57F.B375EF30 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <001d01c4d5b1$fe073770$0100007f@xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C4D57F.B375EF30-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Nov 28 17:37:11 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAT1b7dU032227; Sun, 28 Nov 2004 17:37:07 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAT1b55D032216; Sun, 28 Nov 2004 17:37:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 17:37:05 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner@mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 16:44:01 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: off topic..mad about software registration.......... Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56595 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 7:47 PM 11/28/4, FZNIDARSIC@aol.com wrote: >I purchased some software. I paid the required $50 for it. Let us know what software it is so we don't have the same problem. I have similar frustrations obtaining rebates, especially for computer stuff, even if I buy it at major stores. When I fill out the rebate forms or web forms I find out that a physical address is required and it will be used to mail the rebate. When a phone number is provided I then call the rebate company (usually a different company than the manufacturer) and complain that I live in Alaska and the US Post Office does not delver to my house nor to many houses in the area. For that reason I and my neighbors all have post office boxes (only). I almost always end up with no rebate. They won't even send them FEDEX or UPS, etc. I recently applied for a credit card only to be told that the Patriot Act now requires responses to credit card applications to be to the physical address, no post office boxes allowed. I can't believe Senator Ted Stevens let tens of thousands of Alaskans get affected by that kind of blunder. Maybe he plans to force the post office to deliver door to door here. That would cost them a bundle! Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Nov 28 18:45:29 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAT2jOMg009395; Sun, 28 Nov 2004 18:45:24 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAT2jD3Y009320; Sun, 28 Nov 2004 18:45:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 18:45:13 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001901c4d5bd$7058f5b0$cd017841@xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: off topic..mad about software Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 20:45:07 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0015_01C4D58B.254BEDC0"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.5 required=4.0 tests=HTML_20_30,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56596 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C4D58B.254BEDC0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0016_01C4D58B.254BEDC0" ------=_NextPart_001_0016_01C4D58B.254BEDC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankSave your postage by not mailing in rebates forms. First, the fine = print states you must include the label off the front of the box, = include the original receipt and wait 90 days for response. Never happens. I once took the time to investigate the system. The = great " rebate scam" is managed by several independent national ad = firms. They are not in business to rebate. They show the manufacturer = the odds of anyone actually complying with the rules of the rebate. Even = when you follow the rules, the chances are you forget after 90 days to = follow up. After that, you may or may not get a reply saying the rebate = program has expired. Back when I was 12 years old, I watched a carnival = huckster with a shell game. 3 walnut shells and a pea. Two bits a guess = which shell the pea was under. Cost me 2 bucks to learn the pea was = palmed under the huckster's little finger. With the advent of new = technology there is no end to the variations of the game. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0016_01C4D58B.254BEDC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Save your postage by not mailing in rebates = forms.=20 First, the fine print states you must include the label off the front of = the=20 box, include the original receipt and wait 90 days for = response.
 
Never happens. I once took the time to = investigate the=20 system.  The great " rebate scam" is managed by several independent = national ad firms. They are not in business to rebate. They show the=20 manufacturer the odds of anyone actually complying with the rules of the = rebate.=20 Even when you follow the rules, the chances are you forget after 90 days = to=20 follow up. After that, you may or may not get a reply saying the rebate = program=20 has expired. Back when I was 12 years old, I watched a carnival huckster = with a=20 shell game. 3 walnut shells and a pea. Two bits a guess which shell the = pea was=20 under. Cost me 2 bucks to learn the pea was palmed under the = huckster's=20 little finger. With the advent of new technology there is no end to the=20 variations of the game.
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_0016_01C4D58B.254BEDC0-- ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C4D58B.254BEDC0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <001401c4d5bd$6fe4d720$cd017841@xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C4D58B.254BEDC0-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Nov 28 20:37:40 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAT4bUMg001676; Sun, 28 Nov 2004 20:37:30 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAT4bRiA001655; Sun, 28 Nov 2004 20:37:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 20:37:27 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 23:35:04 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: CF and Orientation . In-reply-to: To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56597 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: on 11/28/04 8:25 PM, Horace Heffner at hheffner@mtaonline.net wrote: > At 2:21 PM 11/28/4, Harry Veeder wrote: > >> Thanks, but please don't get me wrong. >> I am not insinuating that gravity is generating misleading calorimetric >> measurements. > > Yes, understood, but I am asserting that there in fact is good evidence > gravity does play a role if calorimeters are not properly designed. > > >> Rather I am suggesting gravity plays a significant role in the >> creation of excess heat, even though the leading theories of gravity imply >> it can be ignored. > > Do you have any experimental or theoretical evidence to support that? > None. I have a hunch which I wanted to share with the list. Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Nov 28 23:35:01 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAT7YrMg011212; Sun, 28 Nov 2004 23:34:53 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAT7YkiZ011165; Sun, 28 Nov 2004 23:34:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 23:34:46 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 01:34:37 -0600 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: the Haselhurst posting Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1161; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: <7WDEQ.A.UuC.VEtqBB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56598 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Fellow Vortexians; IMHO, experiments are what holds the theorists feet on the ground. I am reminded of the Micho Kaku interviews on C to C AM in which he went on about harnessing the power of a galaxy to push the interstellar traveler through a wormhole. The good doctor fails to consider that, given the microscopic size of the holes, this would be tantamount to putting someone through a cosmic meatgrinder. The big problem is putting them back together again. Particularly if one had to answer to a district attorney, eh? I'm not going to dismiss all of what Mr. Haselhurst has to say as mush, just most of it. In an email I sent to him I challenged him to provide experimental proof for what he says. On paging back through his homepage I came across the following segments. It's difficult to evaluate sentences which use words that I don't understand. The website has a diagram of an in waves and and out waves combining to form a standing wave. Does anyone understand this? does it conform with physical reality? The Lorentz Transformations are caused by a change in velocity and ellopsoidial shape in the In-waves which changes the location of the Wave-Center (and which we "see" as a "Force Accelerating a Particle"). He goes on to say that Lorentz correctly realized that matter existed in an Absolute Space, Aether. Does anyone understand this? I thought that the website started off well, however they then go off on a tangent and end up with the viewpoint of eastern mysticism, that we can't make objective sense of physical reality. In closing I asked him what connection the erotica section had to do with science. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Nov 29 00:11:21 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAT8BFdU014453; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 00:11:15 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAT8BDYE014435; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 00:11:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 00:11:13 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner@mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 23:17:54 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: off topic..mad about software Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56599 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 8:45 PM 11/28/4, RC Macaulay wrote: >With the advent of new technology there is no end to the variations of the >game. Amen to that brother! You're preachin to the choir. Following is a post I made some time ago that you probably missed, but which still has some meaning along these lines: A Gambling Perspective Serious consideration is now being given in Alaska to a state lottery and to taxing and permitting gambling machines and casino gambling in Alaska. Many people oppose such moves based on moral principles, based on fear of attracting organized crime, or based on a history of negative experiences with gambling in other localities. Though these concerns may be valid, the purpose here is to give consideration to a completely different perspective on these issues in Alaska and Nationwide. This perspective is a view of the potential deception associated with gambling, a deception possibly so vile and yet so veiled and unchallenged as to be comparable to cigarette advertising in some prior decades. This perspective brings clarity to the nature of gambling not only in Alaska but to gambling in general. Further, when the public is invited by slick advertising to come "try its luck" or to use some special set of strategies to improve its odds, good reason will be disclosed here why the public should be fully informed as to the near inevitability of the final outcome. The potential deception involved consists of advertising that gives a false impression of a gambling customer's chances of being a winner. Advertising that gives the gambler the impression that he has any reasonable chance of not losing all his money if he continues gambling, if he never stops gambling forever at some early point, is deceptive advertising. "Reasonable" here means better than one chance in a billion, but much smaller chances can be substituted without much change in the final results. That's right. A gambler who gambles indefinitely will lose money with a quantity and a certainty that increases astoundingly with time. Many gamblers think it is just their bad luck that they are continual losers. They think if they could just get another stake then they could redeem themselves, that their "bad luck" is overdue to change. They don't have a clue how completely false this outlook is, and that going broke is not even just normal or bad luck, but rather the only outcome that should be expected. The ultimate outcome over time remains certain to an extreme degree, regardless of any strategy that may be learned or employed, provided the house retains even a small advantage. Advertising for gambling establishments does not give people even a clue as to exactly how fast they can expect to lose all their money. A small advantage applied to repeated betting adds up over time to an amazingly large advantage for the house, to very large probabilities of the gambler "going broke", which is to say losing all the money he starts gambling with, his "purse." Careful analysis shows that the probability for going broke behaves in a cruelly deceptive way over even brief time frames. The probability of being "alive", not going broke, stays flat for a while and then falls off a cliff - so fast in fact that in a startlingly short time the odds for being alive are less than the odds of winning a major lottery. Video poker games and slot machines in general sometimes operate at a margin or "take" of 10 percent. Many people think that this means they can expect to lose 10 percent of the money they start with, their purse, when they go out to gamble. This is completely false. The expected loss is 10 percent of the total amount bet, which increases with every hour of betting, often at a rate of 100 bets per hour or more. At 100 bets per hour, assuming here all bets are the same size, you can expect to lose a net of 10 bets per hour. At $5 a bet you would then expect to lose about $50 per hour. The house take is typically higher for machines that take smaller bets quickly, like small denomination slot machines, than for larger bet machines or games. In a simple win/lose game, given a house margin of 10 percent, i.e. a house excess probability of winning of 0.1, you expect the house to win (in excess of fair odds) 1 in 10 bets on average, so the house should be expected to take away a 100 bet purse in about 1000 bets. You should expect to be able to place about 1000 bets before going broke, loosing all your 100 bet purse. However, most people don't realize that even this is an overestimate of the time you have to gamble, because it only applies to someone with a larger purse. If you actually have a finite purse of 100 bets, then at a 10 percent take there is only a 43.701 percent chance of making it to 1000 bets before going broke. This is because when you hit bottom you have to quit, while a person with a larger purse has a finite though small chance for a comeback if the 100 bet loss line is crossed. In any event, with a large purse or small, the odds of going broke grow astronomical amazingly fast with time as betting continues. When the house take is only 5 percent, with a purse of 100 bets, you would expect to have a 50/50 chance of making it to bet 2000, instead of only the 41.42 percent chance you do have. More significant is the effect of increasing the bet size, i.e. decreasing the purse size, on surviving a given number of bets. With a 10 bet purse, at a 5 percent house take, you only have about 50.6 percent chance of making it to 100 bets, and only a 28.46 percent chance of making it to bet 200, about 3.167 chances in 1000 of making it to 2000 bets, and 1.39 chances in a million of making it to 6900 bets. With a 10 bet purse, at a 10 percent house take, you only have about 32.74 percent chance of making it to 100 bets, only a 11.29 percent chance of making it to bet 200, about 0.892 chances in 1,000,000 of making it to 2000 bets, about 0.648 chances in a BILLION of making it to 3300 bets, and about 1 chance in a TRILLION to make it to 4600 bets, with an expected purse value at that point of about 0.000000000011 bets. This information is possibly more meaningful converted to hours. In a typical game there might be 100 bets an hour, so the number of bets above easily translate to approximate gambling hours by knocking off the last two digits. Mathematically speaking, it is possible to determine a minimum number of bets required to reach any desired probability of being broke, no matter how small, regardless of the size of the house take provided that take is larger than zero. It's now pretty easy to see why gamblers go broke with great certainty if they keep gambling. Also interesting is the way the probabilities tend to "hook" the gambler. If you have a 100 bet purse, then at 99 bets you have a 100 percent probability of still being alive. At a 10 percent house take, this number diminishes very slowly at first, to 98 percent at bet 500, 84 percent at bet 700, 57 percent at bet 900. But then it falls off a cliff, reaching 1.22 percent at bet 1900, 1.87 in 1000 at bet 2300, 0.37 in 1,000,000 at 4000, and 2.246 chances in a BILLION of being alive at bet 5000, i.e. after 50 hours of play. It is easy to see, at a 100 bets/hour, why the gambler with a 100 bet purse of $500, bet at the typical minimum house bet of $5, can lose his purse in a vacation of 3 days or less. It is also somewhat deceiving that, with a 100 bet purse, at a 10 percent take, there is a 98 percent confidence of being alive at bet 500 and more than 98 percent confidence of being out of the game by bet 1800. A tricky effect, even with a comfortable 100 bet purse. At 5 hours nearly everyone is still plugging away with big hopes, but after 18 hours there is about no chance of making it that far. It takes roughly twice as long for the above effects to take place if the house take is 5 percent. At differing house percentages the expected deceptive qualities and expected final result, going broke, are similar - it simply takes more bets to happen with smaller house percentages and less bets with larger house percentages. It may require a miracle to make all this into a simple pamphlet that explains in a clear way to the average person what inevitably happens when one continues to gamble against even the slightest of house odds, and just how amazingly inevitable it is that all will be lost. However, the state has a duty to see that its citizens are fully informed in some similar manner if it elects to take revenue from gaming machines or casinos. The consequences are too dire, too predictable, and yet too hidden from the common consumer to excuse less than full disclosure. The mathematics of this subject may be suitable for a book, but the crucial information must be made available and understandable to the gambling public in some very simple fashion. Perhaps a video or advertising of some kind would be helpful. A marketing miracle is required to get enough gambler interest in the subject to make it possible to communicate the subtleties. Though the details are subtle, the outcome and the degree of certainty is not subtle for the gambler who will not permanently quit, and this affects the community as a whole. The idea that past losses mean soon to be realized wins is called the "gambler's fallacy". It is well known that this is an addictive fallacy to entertain, for it justifies continued betting in the face of steady losses. Even so, it is ironic that the numbers presented here, developed through random walk analysis, show that yet another of the fundamental errors in thinking that people make is to think of every bet as a "new day", a chance to start over, to change luck, when in fact this also is not true at all. It is further ironic that one of the first things taught in probability theory is the nature of independent vs dependent events. Most well educated gamblers are taught to think of each event, each roll of the dice, as an independent event. This is true only in an academic sense when applied to the human experience of gambling, that a specific roll of the dice is an independent event. The successive rolls of the dice are not independent if the gambler has a finite purse. They are all made dependent by the limits of what the gambler has available to bet. This limitation changes the nature of the situation into a random walk with boundaries, and when there are such boundaries they will eventually be crossed. The numbers presented here are tedious but necessary to any understanding of house gambling. They are the prima facie indicators of what is really happening in casinos today, and the fundamental facts for this article. No field investigation of other facts are essential to the understanding of the principle points here. It is the accuracy of the numbers that is essential to the basic truth being presented. Unfortunately, the common person has no access to random walk analysis. Only the derived odds thus have real meaning to many people, and few people have had access to the information presented here. If the house has any advantage at all, it can be expected to take the gambler's purse given enough time. It is not commonly known just how short a time that is. At typical house percentages and bettor purses of about 100 bets the amount of time it takes the house to cause the gambler to go broke, to "fleece" the gambler, is astonishingly short. The odds for being fleeced grow rapidly and grow arbitrarily large with gambling time. Advertising that does not accurately and fully communicate this is misleading. Perhaps this insight, this perspective on gambling, offers a new means to fight the apparent injustice, through the same means the cigarette industry was fought ... in the courts. The gambling industry clearly knows the score, so is its advertising fair? Is the public properly informed? In Alaska the issue of revenue generation by gambling could politically boil down to a choice of the lessor of two evils. Given a choice between a lottery and gambling machines or casinos, a monthly lottery is by far the most fair and least harmful to the public. The consistent long term gambler is more likely to win the lottery than to avoid losing all or the majority of what he bets long term. A lottery, due to the long time between bets, and the fully advertised odds, lacks the deceptive quality that is inherent in gambling machines and casino games. The lottery would be even less harmful to Alaskans for the benefit provided if designed to attract out of state money. It might be asked why a monthly lottery with a 50 percent take and less than a chance in a million of winning could be considered far less harmful and addictive than, say, betting red or black in roulette, which has an about 5.263 percent house take and nearly even chances of winning each bet. The answer is that the roulette player typically places much more than a single bet. According to Ian B William's "Slot Machines: Fun Machines or Tax Machines", $51 billion a year is spent in the US on casino gambling, and about 70 percent of that on slot machines. If the typical gambler bet only a few times, then each slot machine and table would have lines of people going out the door and down the street. This is not what you see at casinos. People bet repeatedly for long periods. Repeated betting increases the expected house win amount drastically. To see which is better, a monthly lottery or roulette, take a look at the expected purse amounts for the two alternatives over the one month period of the lottery. If a gambler has $100 to bet for that time he will likely gamble it all away. His expected purse value after the 100 hours or so of roulette gambling time possible during the month will be a tiny fraction of a cent. If a roulette wheel has 38 slots then 2 will be without color (or green, house take) and 18 will be black and 18 red. The house take will be about 5.26 cents per dollar bet. Due to a typical house $5 minimum the gambler's $100 will likely only be a 20 bet purse. If allowed to make $1 bets the gambler will have a 100 bet purse and can expect to be broke in less than 1900 bets, or less than about 19 hours of betting. He will probably try to obtain even more money with which to vindicate himself. The following table shows in 100 bet intervals the probability of being broke and the expected value of the purse for roulette color bettors that start with a 20 bet purse. Number of bets in better's starting purse 20 House percentage = 5.263 percent Bet Prob. Alive Expected Value ---- -------------- --------------- 100 0.881083267382 14.891433066690 200 0.619848498510 10.952448130541 300 0.435274926086 8.199805170679 400 0.313261560357 6.245178037378 500 0.230621461565 4.823106110599 1000 0.062016797315 1.514700202615 2000 0.007334798455 0.206508730270 3000 0.001127300806 0.034033899035 4000 0.000195968405 0.006173086380 5000 0.000036627971 0.001187554885 6000 0.000007182650 0.000237810615 6900 0.000001707388 0.000057358537 The roulette gambler at a 5.263 percent house take and a $100 to bet at $5 a bet can expect to be broke in less than 3 hours. In fact, from the table, you can see that at bet 300, about 3 hours, he has a 43.5274926086 percent chance of being alive. He has about 1.7 chances in a million of lasting 6900 bets, or about 69 hours of betting during the month, and only a small fraction of a cent expected purse value by that time. At $5 a bet and 100 bets an hour he can be expected to lose 0.05263 * $5/bet * 100 bets/hour = $26.32 per hour. If he has 100 hours to gamble in the month, and does so, he can be expected to lose about $2,632 per month. The estimated 100 bets per hour may be high, and a lower bet rate will reduce the expected loss per hour. The lottery ticket buyer probably will not even spend the full $100 on tickets, unless there are lots of quick turnaround small pots, which will in fact act just like casino gambling. A single large pot can be expected to attract out of state money - especially when no winner shows up and the expected win becomes positive on a subsequent "let it ride" round. But lets assume the lottery player does spend the full $100 on the lottery in order to compare apples to apples. Lotteries typically take about half the proceeds. The $100 provides about a $50 expected purse at the end, as opposed to the small expected fraction of a cent purse for the roulette gambler that bets more than 70 hours. Typically both betters end up broke. However, the lottery ticket buyer is more likely to stay on budget, more likely to win, and will definitely be provided the truth about his approximate odds. If the lottery goes into a "let it ride" round, a late ticket buyer may even end up with more than fair odds. Lastly, the lottery ticket buyer really only needs to buy one ticket a month to keep his dream alive. The machine gambler has to find a way to keep feeding the beast to keep his dream alive. The National Gambling Impact Study Commission Report of June 18, 1999 states: "... government decisions regarding the introduction and regulation of legalized gambling would best be made according to a well defined policy, one formulated with specific goals and limits in mind. While governments have established a variety of regulatory structures, it is not at all clear that these have been guided a coherent gambling policy or even that those making the decisions have had a clear idea of the larger purpose they want to promote. ... Instead, much of what exists is far more the product of incremental and disconnected decisions, often taken in reaction to the pressing issues of the day, than one based on sober assessments of long term needs, goals, and risks." The numbers presented here clearly show that the need for prevention of deceptive advertising and the need for full disclosure and public education with regard to expected gambling outcomes together provide a much needed focus to government gambling policy. The issues being addressed are clearly far more fundamental than those being considered only in Alaska, but rather affect and involve the entire country. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Nov 29 01:47:52 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAT9lfMg008477; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 01:47:41 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAT9lc1e008453; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 01:47:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 01:47:38 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner@mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 00:54:27 -0900 To: "vortex-l" From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: HTSC & LENR, Red Herring Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56600 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 1:07 AM 11/27/4, Frederick Sparber wrote: >Most likely, use of a Magnesium Anode (Sacrificial Cathodic Protection) and >a Palladium Cathode with a LICl-D2O electrolyte will get more CF-OU bang >for the buck >than using a power supply. Lets play with this lead a bit. One problem with using Mg as the anode is depositing of Mg on the cathode will change its electronegativity. Mg can not be used as a separate (biasing) anode because then its potential, though possibly preserving loading when the "real" anode potential is not provided, does not add to the "real" anode when it is positive. To obtain the "bias" the Mg anode must be used as "the" anode, and thus it carries the full cell current and transports MG Accordingly. Perhaps this can be worked up into a viable concept. Suppose the add-on potential comes in the form of AC produced by capacitive coupling to the cell, as shown in Fig. 1 below. ------------ | | IIII|IIIII | Mg bias connection II MMM II | II II | II II | | II C II | | KEY: | II C II | | | II C II | | M - Mg bias anode | II C II | | C - Cathode | II C II | | A - Current supplying anode | II C II | | II - Insulating dielectric | II C II | | | II C II | | | II C II | | (AC)----------| II C--------o----(-) Cathode potential | II C II | | II C II | | II C II | | II C II |----(-AC) | II C II | | II C II | Plate 1 | II C II | Plate 2 | II C II | | II C II | II II II AAAA II IIIII|IIII | (+) Current Anode (Anode potential) Fig. 1 - Diagram of Biased AC Electrolysis Cell Top View, Cross section Perhaps elecrolysis occurs during the positive cycle for Plate 2? The electode "AAAA"is necessary to provide the net current which results - due to current flowing when Plate 1 is positive and no current flowing when Plate 1 is negative. Without the Current Anode the cell potential will go negative and stop all adsorbtion. Again deposition of Mg on the cathode may end the bias provided by the sacrificial Mg anode. An alternative may be to use a Pt current providing anode ("AAAA") which also provides the bias voltage (about 1.4 V) for the AC. The bias voltage provided by "MMM" or "AAAA" is large enough to sustain the cathode loading but small enough to avoid much evolved hydrogen. In this arrangement the interface essentially acts like a diode, an "incremental diode". It's too good to be true. Just wishful thinking? After this long day I can't call it one way or another. I suppose the possibility of electolysis improvement boils down to whether or not the current anode or bias anode is supplying current when Plate 1 is postitive. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Nov 29 05:49:51 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iATDngdU021565; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 05:49:42 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iATDnZqb021506; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 05:49:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 05:49:35 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <410-2200411129124816870@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: The Full Moon & Vortex Posts Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 06:48:16 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94009da418c0ebf1b494ccaa94191e3ff7e350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.123 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56601 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII I told you so, Keith. http://www.escribe.com/science/vortex/ The record speaks for itself. http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2000/pdf/2059.pdf That nocturnal infrared "spike" from 2.5 microns (0.5 eV) to 5 microns (0.25 eV) during the full moon gets the serotonin-melatonin hormones balance excited. Bricks & shingles are mostly transparent to these photons, but water and cells ain't. :-) Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
I told you so, Keith.  
 
 
The record speaks for itself. 
 
 
That nocturnal infrared "spike" from 2.5 microns (0.5 eV) to 5 microns (0.25 eV) during the
full moon gets the serotonin-melatonin hormones balance excited.
 
Bricks & shingles are mostly transparent to these photons, but water and cells ain't.   :-)
 
Frederick
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Nov 29 06:14:32 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iATEEOMg005909; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 06:14:24 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iATEEItj005857; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 06:14:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 06:14:18 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: FZNIDARSIC@aol.com Message-ID: <65.395e28b2.2edc88b2@aol.com> Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 09:14:10 EST Subject: Re: the Haselhurst posting To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_65.395e28b2.2edc88b2_boundary" X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6808 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56602 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --part1_65.395e28b2.2edc88b2_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/29/2004 2:35:16 AM Eastern Standard Time, temalloy@metro.lakes.com writes: > On paging back through his homepage I came across the following > segments. It's difficult to evaluate sentences which use words that I > don't understand. > I done the same with more math. Matter is a standing wave. Moving matter has a traveling component. The vector sum is the relativistic mass. See page 11. http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/chapter7.html Frank Z --part1_65.395e28b2.2edc88b2_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 11/29/2004 2:35:= 16 AM Eastern Standard Time, temalloy@metro.lakes.com writes:

On  paging back through hi= s homepage I came across the following
segments. It's difficult to evaluate sentences which use words that I
don't understand.


I done the same with more math.  Matter is a standing wave.  Movin= g matter has a traveling component.  The vector sum is the relativistic= mass.  See page 11.

http://www.ang= elfire.com/scifi2/zpt/chapter7.html




Frank Z --part1_65.395e28b2.2edc88b2_boundary-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Nov 29 07:29:16 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iATFTAdU016692; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 07:29:10 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iATFT8OJ016675; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 07:29:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 07:29:08 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=m7k3NfAo+ubCMa40ah8F2Zj3iXGiiQXFdCL3lNZtgznCxCqC8jJqDxILoYWZ88aOKxlJ82uPmIz6GT1GfdO8I7gugdGeN8SCmLJUBb01URGGHYmIWt+Bg4NBw6c3W9jA/XcmgEX2GEh58f9kZuFl4RImUAR9joYOVdmX5MI8dfI= Message-ID: Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 08:29:00 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: off topic..mad about software registration.......... In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56603 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: rebates do it as hard as possible becuase the rebate companies job is to get as few rebates actually proccessed as possible. thus all the hoops. as for patriot act, any act of anynonimity is "antisocial" and "possible terrorist activity" im reminded of a short that was in amazing back in the 70's about a conquered society in the peasants were required to record EVERYTHING in a diary, and it was made a compulsion through the training of the young, and every friday was a public diary reading. no secrets from each other, no secrets from the conquering power,and they were trained to the point that if someone DID keep secrets, public diary reading night became public stoning night. anyone else see it happening. its along the lines of general jeffrey miller. ran gitmo, went to iraq to train them in how to interrograte in abu ghraib, was a direct cause of the torture there, and while the soldiers are being court martialed, the good general just got promoted. errg. back onto software, software companies may NOT require personal information to use. you legally can give them false information. i do all the time. for some good ideas, search ampcast for three dead trolls in a baggie, privacy song. hilarious and partly true. also there are companies that charge outrageous amounts. such as m$ and adobe. several hundred bucks for photoshop, when they dont understand that photoshop, the most pirated piece of software of all time, would sell like freaking HOTCAKES if priced at 50 dollars, and that the profit margin would soar. i keep my consience clear, if i pirate a piece of software, i send the company a cashiers check for what i feel is a fair price. 30 bucks for photoshop, say. they cant track me, but i paid them what is essentially pure profit, as there was no overhead involved to them, and i wasnt going to buy it no matter what, so no loss is involved. >@< On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 16:44:01 -0900, Horace Heffner wrote: > At 7:47 PM 11/28/4, FZNIDARSIC@aol.com wrote: > >I purchased some software. I paid the required $50 for it. > > Let us know what software it is so we don't have the same problem. > > I have similar frustrations obtaining rebates, especially for computer > stuff, even if I buy it at major stores. When I fill out the rebate forms > or web forms I find out that a physical address is required and it will be > used to mail the rebate. When a phone number is provided I then call the > rebate company (usually a different company than the manufacturer) and > complain that I live in Alaska and the US Post Office does not delver to my > house nor to many houses in the area. For that reason I and my neighbors > all have post office boxes (only). I almost always end up with no rebate. > They won't even send them FEDEX or UPS, etc. > > I recently applied for a credit card only to be told that the Patriot Act > now requires responses to credit card applications to be to the physical > address, no post office boxes allowed. I can't believe Senator Ted Stevens > let tens of thousands of Alaskans get affected by that kind of blunder. > Maybe he plans to force the post office to deliver door to door here. That > would cost them a bundle! > > Regards, > > Horace Heffner > > -- Fairy tales are more than true: not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten. -G.K. Chesterton From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Nov 29 07:42:21 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iATFgCdU022389; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 07:42:13 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iATFgBW2022375; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 07:42:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 07:42:11 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <41AB35A4.8E59864A@ix.netcom.com> Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 20:46:57 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: HTSC & LENR, Red Herring References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56604 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Nice idea, Horace, but you fail to consider one important aspect of using Mg as the anode. Oxygen that forms at the anode will react to form MgO, which is an insulator and is insoluble. As a result, cell resistance will increase to unacceptable values. This same kind of reaction occurs when Zr or Ti are used as the anode as well. A very low applied current would be the only condition permitting use of Mg. The current would have to be small enough so that the formation rate of MgO would have to be less than its rate of dissolution from the surface. Regards, Ed Horace Heffner wrote: > At 1:07 AM 11/27/4, Frederick Sparber wrote: > > >Most likely, use of a Magnesium Anode (Sacrificial Cathodic Protection) and > >a Palladium Cathode with a LICl-D2O electrolyte will get more CF-OU bang > >for the buck > >than using a power supply. > > Lets play with this lead a bit. One problem with using Mg as the anode is > depositing of Mg on the cathode will change its electronegativity. Mg can > not be used as a separate (biasing) anode because then its potential, > though possibly preserving loading when the "real" anode potential is not > provided, does not add to the "real" anode when it is positive. To obtain > the "bias" the Mg anode must be used as "the" anode, and thus it carries > the full cell current and transports MG Accordingly. > > Perhaps this can be worked up into a viable concept. Suppose the add-on > potential comes in the form of AC produced by capacitive coupling to the > cell, as shown in Fig. 1 below. > > ------------ > | | > IIII|IIIII | Mg bias connection > II MMM II | > II II | > II II | > | II C II | | KEY: > | II C II | | > | II C II | | M - Mg bias anode > | II C II | | C - Cathode > | II C II | | A - Current supplying anode > | II C II | | II - Insulating dielectric > | II C II | | > | II C II | | > | II C II | | > (AC)----------| II C--------o----(-) Cathode potential > | II C II | > | II C II | > | II C II | > | II C II |----(-AC) > | II C II | > | II C II | > Plate 1 | II C II | Plate 2 > | II C II | > | II C II | > II II > II AAAA II > IIIII|IIII > | > (+) Current Anode (Anode potential) > > Fig. 1 - Diagram of Biased AC Electrolysis Cell > Top View, Cross section > > Perhaps elecrolysis occurs during the positive cycle for Plate 2? The > electode "AAAA"is necessary to provide the net current which results - due > to current flowing when Plate 1 is positive and no current flowing when > Plate 1 is negative. Without the Current Anode the cell potential will go > negative and stop all adsorbtion. Again deposition of Mg on the cathode > may end the bias provided by the sacrificial Mg anode. An alternative may > be to use a Pt current providing anode ("AAAA") which also provides the > bias voltage (about 1.4 V) for the AC. The bias voltage provided by "MMM" > or "AAAA" is large enough to sustain the cathode loading but small enough > to avoid much evolved hydrogen. In this arrangement the interface > essentially acts like a diode, an "incremental diode". > > It's too good to be true. Just wishful thinking? After this long day I > can't call it one way or another. I suppose the possibility of electolysis > improvement boils down to whether or not the current anode or bias anode is > supplying current when Plate 1 is postitive. > > Regards, > > Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Nov 29 07:51:26 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iATFpIdU025733; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 07:51:22 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iATFpDnM025681; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 07:51:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 07:51:13 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner@mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 06:58:09 -0900 To: "vortex-l" From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: HTSC & LENR, Red Herring Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56605 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: No free lunch: ------------ | | IIII|IIIII | Mg bias connection II MMM II | II II | II II | | II C II | | KEY: | II C II | | | II C II | | M - Mg bias anode | II C II | | C - Cathode | II C II | | A - Current supplying anode | II C II | | II - Insulating dielectric | II C II | | | II C II | | | II C II | | (AC)----------| II C--------o----(-) Cathode potential | II C II | | II C II | | II C II | | II C II |----(-AC) | II C II | | II C II | Plate 1 | II C II | Plate 2 | II C II | | II C II | II II II AAAA II IIIII|IIII | (+) Current Anode (Anode potential) Fig. 1 - Diagram of Biased AC Electrolysis Cell Top View, Cross section Elecrolysis occurs on the left side of tha cathode during the positive cycle for Plate 2, and the right side when Plate 1 is positive. The electode "AAAA"is necessary to provide the net current which results - due to current flowing when Plate 1 is positive and no current flowing when Plate 1 is negative. Without the current anode or bias anode the cell is merely an AC cell and insufficient loading occurs due to recombination. Again deposition of Mg on the cathode may end the bias provided by the sacrificial Mg anode. An alternative may be to use a Pt current providing anode ("AAAA") which also provides the bias voltage (about 1.4 V) for the AC. The bias voltage provided by "MMM" or "AAAA" is large enough to sustain the cathode loading but small enough to avoid much evolved hydrogen. In this arrangement the interface essentially acts like a diode, an "incremental diode". Unfortunately the current anode or bias anode supply the full cell current i at the bias potential, i.e. about 1.4 V. The AC provides the current i at the incremental voltage, so it appears there is no free lunch. But wait a second. The AC portion does not have to push current through an anode interface, so should save about half a volt over a regular electrolytic cell. During the reverse cycle, assuming the AC peak potential is less than 0.7 V, the cathode interface prevents current flowing at all so the side of the cathode facing the negative cathode face experiences no current, only the bias potential which holds hydrogen in the cathode but does not evolve hydrogen. There may be an electrolysis efficiency gain in this cell design? No free luch but maybe a free desert? Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Nov 29 08:01:32 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iATG1JMg006813; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 08:01:20 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iATG1IEn006803; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 08:01:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 08:01:18 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner@mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 07:08:17 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: HTSC & LENR, Red Herring Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56606 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 8:46 PM 11/28/4, Edmund Storms wrote: >Nice idea, Horace, but you fail to consider one important aspect of using Mg as >the anode. Oxygen that forms at the anode will react to form MgO, which is an >insulator and is insoluble. As a result, cell resistance will increase to >unacceptable values. This same kind of reaction occurs when Zr or Ti are used >as the anode as well. A very low applied current would be the only condition >permitting use of Mg. The current would have to be small enough so that the >formation rate of MgO would have to be less than its rate of dissolution from >the surface. Yes. I also failed to consider the fact that any (net) current provided through the cell is provided y the only path to the cell, namely through the anode and cathode. This current is provided at the bias potential, so there is no free biasing (power), which was the initial objective. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Nov 29 08:09:00 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iATG8pdU032265; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 08:08:51 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iATG8nT8032248; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 08:08:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 08:08:49 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <410-220041112915731370@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: HTSC & LENR, Red Herring Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 09:07:31 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940464a172e4288e18ae8f815a3ca408f68350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.251 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56607 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ed. Wouldn't the Cl- ions arriving at the anode dissolve the MgO which is acid soluble? Frederick Waiting for " Davis The Plumber" to fix the electronic pilot on the gas furnace $80.00 service call charge plus $50.00 "Mandatory Safety Inspection" plus Parts & Labor. Energy Efficiency at a price. :-) Ed Storms wrote: > > Nice idea, Horace, but you fail to consider one important aspect of using Mg as > the anode. Oxygen that forms at the anode will react to form MgO, which is an > insulator and is insoluble. As a result, cell resistance will increase to > unacceptable values. This same kind of reaction occurs when Zr or Ti are used > as the anode as well. A very low applied current would be the only condition > permitting use of Mg. The current would have to be small enough so that the > formation rate of MgO would have to be less than its rate of dissolution from > the surface. > > Regards, > Ed > > Horace Heffner wrote: > > > At 1:07 AM 11/27/4, Frederick Sparber wrote: > > > > >Most likely, use of a Magnesium Anode (Sacrificial Cathodic Protection) and > > >a Palladium Cathode with a LICl-D2O electrolyte will get more CF-OU bang > > >for the buck > > >than using a power supply. > > > > Lets play with this lead a bit. One problem with using Mg as the anode is > > depositing of Mg on the cathode will change its electronegativity. Mg can > > not be used as a separate (biasing) anode because then its potential, > > though possibly preserving loading when the "real" anode potential is not > > provided, does not add to the "real" anode when it is positive. To obtain > > the "bias" the Mg anode must be used as "the" anode, and thus it carries > > the full cell current and transports MG Accordingly. > > > > Perhaps this can be worked up into a viable concept. Suppose the add-on > > potential comes in the form of AC produced by capacitive coupling to the > > cell, as shown in Fig. 1 below. > > > > ------------ > > | | > > IIII|IIIII | Mg bias connection > > II MMM II | > > II II | > > II II | > > | II C II | | KEY: > > | II C II | | > > | II C II | | M - Mg bias anode > > | II C II | | C - Cathode > > | II C II | | A - Current supplying anode > > | II C II | | II - Insulating dielectric > > | II C II | | > > | II C II | | > > | II C II | | > > (AC)----------| II C--------o----(-) Cathode potential > > | II C II | > > | II C II | > > | II C II | > > | II C II |----(-AC) > > | II C II | > > | II C II | > > Plate 1 | II C II | Plate 2 > > | II C II | > > | II C II | > > II II > > II AAAA II > > IIIII|IIII > > | > > (+) Current Anode (Anode potential) > > > > Fig. 1 - Diagram of Biased AC Electrolysis Cell > > Top View, Cross section > > > > Perhaps elecrolysis occurs during the positive cycle for Plate 2? The > > electode "AAAA"is necessary to provide the net current which results - due > > to current flowing when Plate 1 is positive and no current flowing when > > Plate 1 is negative. Without the Current Anode the cell potential will go > > negative and stop all adsorbtion. Again deposition of Mg on the cathode > > may end the bias provided by the sacrificial Mg anode. An alternative may > > be to use a Pt current providing anode ("AAAA") which also provides the > > bias voltage (about 1.4 V) for the AC. The bias voltage provided by "MMM" > > or "AAAA" is large enough to sustain the cathode loading but small enough > > to avoid much evolved hydrogen. In this arrangement the interface > > essentially acts like a diode, an "incremental diode". > > > > It's too good to be true. Just wishful thinking? After this long day I > > can't call it one way or another. I suppose the possibility of electolysis > > improvement boils down to whether or not the current anode or bias anode is > > supplying current when Plate 1 is postitive. > > > > Regards, > > > > Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Nov 29 08:33:02 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iATGWvdU006954; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 08:32:57 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iATGWs9F006929; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 08:32:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 08:32:54 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: John Fields To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: off topic..mad about software registration.......... Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 10:32:34 -0600 Organization: Austin Instruments, Inc Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id iATGWrdU006910 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56608 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Mon, 29 Nov 2004 08:29:00 -0700, you wrote: >back onto software, software companies may NOT require personal >information to use. you legally can give them false information. i >do all the time. for some good ideas, search ampcast for three dead >trolls in a baggie, privacy song. hilarious and partly true. also >there are companies that charge outrageous amounts. such as m$ and >adobe. several hundred bucks for photoshop, when they dont understand >that photoshop, the most pirated piece of software of all time, would >sell like freaking HOTCAKES if priced at 50 dollars, and that the >profit margin would soar. i keep my consience clear, if i pirate a >piece of software, i send the company a cashiers check for what i feel >is a fair price. 30 bucks for photoshop, say. they cant track me, >but i paid them what is essentially pure profit, as there was no >overhead involved to them, and i wasnt going to buy it no matter what, >so no loss is involved. --- Like most thieves, you justify your actions and assuage your guilt by casting aspersions on your victims. If you disagree with someone's marketing philosophy, then your moral recourse is not to steal from them, it's to deny them your support by not buying their products. -- John Fields From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Nov 29 08:47:00 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iATGkpdU010565; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 08:46:51 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iATGkoAV010559; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 08:46:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 08:46:50 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=gE+GMNowsnEcIzyHFosUcD/xgNclLVuCCYCTAnBm4joRMMgPiM+slDObAnwoYTAQdTH6SvUTBFV7pyYn2CesHC3ClzFIhGlQtnADQwiv8Or1K1b/0SicjBh3lygjAJZfzUyTO91fXNUL1jYR/zkhWJwzwf+6GqU13QhmkWmAlgY= Message-ID: Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 09:46:21 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: off topic..mad about software registration.......... In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56609 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: only works in a competitive market, non monopolized. and no asppersions were cast at marketing strategy, only at dumb greed. remember the train industry! On Mon, 29 Nov 2004 10:32:34 -0600, John Fields wrote: > On Mon, 29 Nov 2004 08:29:00 -0700, you wrote: > > > > >back onto software, software companies may NOT require personal > >information to use. you legally can give them false information. i > >do all the time. for some good ideas, search ampcast for three dead > >trolls in a baggie, privacy song. hilarious and partly true. also > >there are companies that charge outrageous amounts. such as m$ and > >adobe. several hundred bucks for photoshop, when they dont understand > >that photoshop, the most pirated piece of software of all time, would > >sell like freaking HOTCAKES if priced at 50 dollars, and that the > >profit margin would soar. i keep my consience clear, if i pirate a > >piece of software, i send the company a cashiers check for what i feel > >is a fair price. 30 bucks for photoshop, say. they cant track me, > >but i paid them what is essentially pure profit, as there was no > >overhead involved to them, and i wasnt going to buy it no matter what, > >so no loss is involved. > > --- > Like most thieves, you justify your actions and assuage your guilt by > casting aspersions on your victims. If you disagree with someone's > marketing philosophy, then your moral recourse is not to steal from > them, it's to deny them your support by not buying their products. > > -- > John Fields > > -- Fairy tales are more than true: not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten. -G.K. Chesterton From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Nov 29 09:09:37 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iATH9TdU018228; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 09:09:29 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iATH9S9w018209; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 09:09:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 09:09:28 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <410-220041112916810680@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: HTSC & LENR, Red Herring Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 10:08:10 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9408e45481e0fd22831870ddb153e19100c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.165.44 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56610 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I brought up a simple voltaic couple between a sacrificial magnesium anode + 2.47 volts against a Pd cathode - 0.82 volts (on the electromotive series 3.29 volts total) based the fact that the pipeline protection industry has been using a magnesium plate buried in the ground, wired to the iron or steel (+ 0.44 volts) pipelines for cathodic protection for over a century. Apparently the anions keep the surface of the magnesium clean enough to do the job. Electromotive Series of Metals Metal on Formed Potential Lithium Li +2.96 Rubidium Rb +2.93 Potassium K +2.92 Strontium Sr +2.92 Barium Ba +2.90 Calcium Ca +2.87 Sodium Na +2.71 Magnesium Mg +2.40 Alumunium Al +1.70 Berylium Be +1.69 Manganese Mn +1.10 Zinc Zn +0.76 Chromium Cr +0.56 Iron (ferrous) FE +0.44 Cadmium Cd +0.40 Indium In +0.34 Thallium Tl +0.33 Cobalt Co +0.28 Nickel Ni +0.23 Tin Sn +0.14 Lead Pb +0.12 Iron (ferric) Fe +0.04 Hydrogen H 0.00 Antimony Sb -0.10 Bismuth Bi -0.30 Arsenic As -0.30 Copper (cupric) Cu -0.34 Copper (cuprous) Te -0.56 Tellurium Te -0.56 Silver Ag -0.80 Mercury Hg -0.80 Palladium Pd -0.82 Platinum Pt -0.86 Gold (auric) Au -1.36 Gold (aurous) Au -1.50 I wrote: > > Ed. Wouldn't the Cl- ions arriving at the anode dissolve the MgO which is > acid soluble? > > Frederick > > Ed Storms wrote: > > > > Nice idea, Horace, but you fail to consider one important aspect of using > Mg as > > the anode. Oxygen that forms at the anode will react to form MgO, which > is an > > insulator and is insoluble. As a result, cell resistance will increase > to > > unacceptable values. This same kind of reaction occurs when Zr or Ti are > used > > as the anode as well. A very low applied current would be the only > condition > > permitting use of Mg. The current would have to be small enough so that > the > > formation rate of MgO would have to be less than its rate of dissolution > from > > the surface. > > > > Regards, > > Ed > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Nov 29 10:02:51 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iATI2gdU002169; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 10:02:43 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iATI2e5p002148; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 10:02:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 10:02:40 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner@mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 09:09:33 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: CF lattice building with carbon Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56611 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Codeposition electrolysis using a weak carbolic acid, i.e. phenol, an aromatic ring with attached OH, or oher organic compound, combined with Li2SO4 and heavy water to form the electrolyte, and a Pd anode, may form on the cathode surface a volume which supports a larger than typical nuclear active state (NAS) zone as Ed Storms calls it [See "The Nature of Energy-Active State in Pd-D", Published in Infinite Energy #5,6 (1996)]. Ed's research shows the NAS to be located to within a zone about a micron in depth beneath the cathode surface, and that the active (successful) Pd cathodes tend not to expand when loaded. The addition of carbon rings or even fullerenes to the matrix has a two fold objective. First, the carbon is intended to strengthen or harden the matrix by the addition of covalent bonds. Second, the presence of carbon rings or fullerenes in the matrix provides deformities in the matrix which allow the formation of D2 molecules under high pressure. In an ideal matrix the deformities adjacent to carbon molecules must tend not to initiate cracks in the matrix that release the hydrogen. In order that a high carbon content be obtained, perhaps Pd is not the best cathode material. Alloys that would not ordinarily permit sufficient hydrogen diffusion may be good NAS candidates if a sufficient deformity density can be obtained concurrent with the hydrogen codeposition. A final surface layer of Pd might be added though in order to facilitate hydrogen adsorbtion and to maintain cathode life. Fullerenes inside the matrix may form nano-Case-cells, or a nano version of a hollow cathode cell. The objective of the suggested approach is converting a surface effect into a reliable bulk effect. Additionally, creation of a high volume (bulk CF) zone should increase the probability or density of active sites. Stimulation or control of bulk effect CF may require the use of x-rays in order to produce within the bulk a high density of energetic free electrons that catalyse the fusion. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Nov 29 10:05:41 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iATI5ZMg011904; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 10:05:35 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iATI5MCi011819; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 10:05:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 10:05:22 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: John Fields To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: off topic..mad about software registration.......... Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 12:04:58 -0600 Organization: Austin Instruments, Inc Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id iATI5IMg011776 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56612 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Mon, 29 Nov 2004 09:46:21 -0700, you wrote: >only works in a competitive market, non monopolized. and no >asppersions were cast at marketing strategy, only at dumb greed. >remember the train industry! --- This is entirely off-topic for vortex-l, so I don't intend to pursue it much longer, but I'd like to remind you that the software industry is hardly a monopoly. There are a few major players who, at the moment, seem to be calling the shots, and if you disagree with their tactics then compete with them in the marketplace by writing a smaller, better, faster, cheaper package than they offer and let the world beat a bath to _your_ door. Interestingly, your proselytizing for the purpose of trying to recruit converts to your world ("If enough people do it it'll be OK") of piracy hardly smacks of anything but dumb greed on _your_ part, in that you don't want to pay for the value of what you want, you want to pay what _you_ want to pay and you want to be the arbiter of what a fair price is. You make up excuses like, "They don't have any overhead so it's OK for me to rip them off" which seem appealing but are nonsensical in that it doesn't matter _what_ their overhead structure looks like, it's none of your business and neither are any of their other business practices. Bottom line is, the price of the software is the price of the software and if you don't like it, don't buy it. -- John Fields From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Nov 29 11:35:43 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iATJZT8e005035; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 11:35:30 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iATJZRe8005014; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 11:35:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 11:35:27 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: off topic..mad about software registration.......... Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 14:34:46 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: <-XmjZ.A.ROB._n3qBB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56613 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi All. As I settle in for another 12 hour day writing software for my small software company, I'm inspired by Leakys words. It's always a pleasure to hear how my time is worthless and that I should just give my products away because I owe you my life and work. I must just be some greedy asshole, with a crazy expectation of having a roof over my head and food in my mouth just because I produce valuable goods for the marketplace. Perhaps there is some truth in your statements. I certainly feel foolish when I bend over backwards to satisfy clients for very little money while so many bootleg my work. Here's a crazy thought, Leaky. Are the admittedly aggresive tactics taken by the larger houses perhaps a reflection on the behaviour of the markets being sold to, rather than simple greed? Could your personal behaviour have anything to do with the situation we find ourselves in? Full moon indeed, Fred... K. -----Original Message----- From: John Fields [mailto:jfields@austininstruments.com] Sent: Monday, November 29, 2004 1:05 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: off topic..mad about software registration.......... On Mon, 29 Nov 2004 09:46:21 -0700, you wrote: >only works in a competitive market, non monopolized. and no >asppersions were cast at marketing strategy, only at dumb greed. >remember the train industry! --- This is entirely off-topic for vortex-l, so I don't intend to pursue it much longer, but I'd like to remind you that the software industry is hardly a monopoly. There are a few major players who, at the moment, seem to be calling the shots, and if you disagree with their tactics then compete with them in the marketplace by writing a smaller, better, faster, cheaper package than they offer and let the world beat a bath to _your_ door. Interestingly, your proselytizing for the purpose of trying to recruit converts to your world ("If enough people do it it'll be OK") of piracy hardly smacks of anything but dumb greed on _your_ part, in that you don't want to pay for the value of what you want, you want to pay what _you_ want to pay and you want to be the arbiter of what a fair price is. You make up excuses like, "They don't have any overhead so it's OK for me to rip them off" which seem appealing but are nonsensical in that it doesn't matter _what_ their overhead structure looks like, it's none of your business and neither are any of their other business practices. Bottom line is, the price of the software is the price of the software and if you don't like it, don't buy it. -- John Fields From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Nov 29 11:36:53 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iATJan8H030743; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 11:36:50 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iATJahrk030674; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 11:36:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 11:36:43 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: From: "Johnson, Steven" To: "'vortex-l@eskimo.com'" Cc: "Johnson, Steven" Subject: RE: off topic..mad about software registration.......... Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 13:36:26 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-PMX-Version: 4.6.0.99824, Antispam-Core: 4.6.1.104326, Antispam-Data: 2004.11.29.19 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56614 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: From: John Fields jfields@austin... Sent: Monday, November 29, 2004 12:05 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com ... > Interestingly, your proselytizing for the purpose of trying to > recruit converts to your world ("If enough people do it it'll > be OK") of piracy hardly smacks of anything but dumb greed on > _your_ part, in that you don't want to pay for the value of > what you want, you want to pay what _you_ want to pay and you > want to be the arbiter of what a fair price is. This line of reasoning reminds me of a fascinating public television installment recently aired on FRONTLINE. I believe it was titled "Is WALL MART GOOD FOR AMERICA?" This is pretty close to the line of reasoning WALL MART's executives decided to pursue when they recently negotiated with their major suppliers. The result has been that they occasionally have some of the cheapest consumer products available, a point they make sure to advertise - just enough target products to entice customers into the door. Then, they use the bait and switch tactic to get you to purchase higher end products that translate into higher profit margins for WALL MART. Meanwhile, several highly respected American companies, like Rubbermaid which used to be a major supplier to WALL MART (A company that was written up as one of the most successful companies in the United States) was forced out of business because WALL MART essentially _TOLD_ them what they would buy their products for and not a penny more. Rubbermaid couldn't comply. They were forced out of business as China became one of WALL MART's major suppliers of consumer products. Meanwhile, Americans and American companies have been forced out of business. I suspect many may disagree in varying degrees with Leaking Pen's purchasing philosophy. Never the less, I find myself strangely sympathetic to parts of it. > You make up excuses like, "They don't have any overhead so it's > OK for me to rip them off" which seem appealing but are > nonsensical in that it doesn't matter _what_ their overhead > structure looks like, it's none of your business and neither > are any of their other business practices. Bottom line is, the > price of the software is the price of the software and if you > don't like it, don't buy it. > >-- >John Fields After watching the FRONTLINE show, my desire to "buy" anything at WALL MART is practically nil. Obviously, being able to sell products at cheaper prices than what is being sold by all the competitors should eventually translate into higher standards of living for all the consumers who purchased the items at the cheaper price. The problem is, at what price and who ends up paying for it. Should we be afraid of WALL MART and what it's doing to America? Not an easy answer. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Nov 29 11:40:30 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iATJeH8e006524; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 11:40:17 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iATJeEep006503; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 11:40:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 11:40:14 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 14:37:19 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: The Full Moon & Vortex Posts In-reply-to: <410-2200411129124816870@earthlink.net> To: vortex-l Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_VBvEx4miSpkDWMDKY7YECQ)" User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56615 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --Boundary_(ID_VBvEx4miSpkDWMDKY7YECQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT May be the position of the moon affects CF cells too. Harry Veeder on 11/29/04 7:48 AM, Frederick Sparber at fjsparber@earthlink.net wrote: I told you so, Keith. http://www.escribe.com/science/vortex/ The record speaks for itself. http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2000/pdf/2059.pdf That nocturnal infrared "spike" from 2.5 microns (0.5 eV) to 5 microns (0.25 eV) during the full moon gets the serotonin-melatonin hormones balance excited. Bricks & shingles are mostly transparent to these photons, but water and cells ain't. :-) Frederick --Boundary_(ID_VBvEx4miSpkDWMDKY7YECQ) Content-type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Re: The Full Moon & Vortex Posts May be the position of the moon affects CF cells too.

Harry Veeder

on 11/29/04 7:48 AM, Frederick Sparber at fjsparber@earthlink.net wrote:

I told you so, Keith.  

http://www.escribe.com/science/vortex/

The record speaks for itself.

http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2000/pdf/2059.pdf

That nocturnal infrared "spike" from 2.5 microns (0.5 eV) to 5 microns (0.25 eV) during the
full moon gets the serotonin-melatonin hormones balance excited.

Bricks & shingles are mostly transparent to these photons, but water and cells ain't.   :-)

Frederick


--Boundary_(ID_VBvEx4miSpkDWMDKY7YECQ)-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Nov 29 12:14:14 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iATKE0uc017314; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 12:14:00 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iATKDxXt017307; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 12:13:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 12:13:59 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <410-2200411129191239920@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: RE: Spam Alert: RE: off topic..mad about software registration.......... Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 13:12:39 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940bf34b475b31a85825251111abb8d4dfb350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.87.141 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56616 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Keith Nagel wrote: > > Hi All. > > I certainly feel foolish when I bend over > backwards to satisfy clients for very little money while > so many bootleg my work. > Wrong profession Keith. Service call & diagnostics of Trane gas furnace, $80.00 Mandatory Safety Check, $50.00 Electric Resistance flame ignitor discounted $93.00 looks like a $5.00 part $2 23.00 plus tax. > Here's a crazy thought, Leaky. Are the admittedly aggresive > tactics taken by the larger houses perhaps a reflection on > the behaviour of the markets being sold to, rather than > simple greed? Could your personal behaviour have anything > to do with the situation we find ourselves in? > > Full moon indeed, Fred... > Told you so. :-) Frederick > K. > > -----Original Message----- > From: John Fields [mailto:jfields@austininstruments.com] > Sent: Monday, November 29, 2004 1:05 PM > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > Subject: Re: off topic..mad about software registration.......... > > > On Mon, 29 Nov 2004 09:46:21 -0700, you wrote: > > >only works in a competitive market, non monopolized. and no > >asppersions were cast at marketing strategy, only at dumb greed. > >remember the train industry! > > --- > This is entirely off-topic for vortex-l, so I don't intend to pursue > it much longer, but I'd like to remind you that the software industry > is hardly a monopoly. There are a few major players who, at the > moment, seem to be calling the shots, and if you disagree with their > tactics then compete with them in the marketplace by writing a > smaller, better, faster, cheaper package than they offer and let the > world beat a bath to _your_ door. > > Interestingly, your proselytizing for the purpose of trying to recruit > converts to your world ("If enough people do it it'll be OK") of > piracy hardly smacks of anything but dumb greed on _your_ part, in > that you don't want to pay for the value of what you want, you want to > pay what _you_ want to pay and you want to be the arbiter of what a > fair price is. > > You make up excuses like, "They don't have any overhead so it's OK for > me to rip them off" which seem appealing but are nonsensical in that > it doesn't matter _what_ their overhead structure looks like, it's > none of your business and neither are any of their other business > practices. Bottom line is, the price of the software is the price of > the software and if you don't like it, don't buy it. > > -- > John Fields > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Nov 29 12:20:07 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iATKJruc019209; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 12:19:53 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iATKJqCW019191; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 12:19:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 12:19:52 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <41AB76B8.5DDA389F@ix.netcom.com> Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 12:21:28 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: CF lattice building with carbon References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56617 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: > Codeposition electrolysis using a weak carbolic acid, i.e. phenol, an > aromatic ring with attached OH, or oher organic compound, combined with > Li2SO4 and heavy water to form the electrolyte, and a Pd anode, may form on > the cathode surface a volume which supports a larger than typical nuclear > active state (NAS) zone as Ed Storms calls it [See "The Nature of > Energy-Active State in Pd-D", Published in Infinite Energy #5,6 (1996)]. > Ed's research shows the NAS to be located to within a zone about a micron > in depth beneath the cathode surface, and that the active (successful) Pd > cathodes tend not to expand when loaded. The Pd expands when loaded. This can not be stopped. However, this expansion does not produce cracking. > > > The addition of carbon rings or even fullerenes to the matrix has a two > fold objective. First, the carbon is intended to strengthen or harden the > matrix by the addition of covalent bonds. Second, the presence of carbon > rings or fullerenes in the matrix provides deformities in the matrix which > allow the formation of D2 molecules under high pressure. In an ideal > matrix the deformities adjacent to carbon molecules must tend not to > initiate cracks in the matrix that release the hydrogen. > > In order that a high carbon content be obtained, perhaps Pd is not the best > cathode material. Alloys that would not ordinarily permit sufficient > hydrogen diffusion may be good NAS candidates if a sufficient deformity > density can be obtained concurrent with the hydrogen codeposition. A final > surface layer of Pd might be added though in order to facilitate hydrogen > adsorbtion and to maintain cathode life. This is what I find. Pt is an ideal substrate on which to deposit the NAE. I expect other metals might work once we understand the nature of the NAE. > > > Fullerenes inside the matrix may form nano-Case-cells, or a nano version of > a hollow cathode cell. > > The objective of the suggested approach is converting a surface effect into > a reliable bulk effect. Additionally, creation of a high volume (bulk CF) > zone should increase the probability or density of active sites. > Stimulation or control of bulk effect CF may require the use of x-rays in > order to produce within the bulk a high density of energetic free electrons > that catalyse the fusion. I suggest a distinction needs to be made between a bulk effect and an effect based on a large amount of the NAE. Once the NAE is understood, it will be made as a powder or deposited on a heat sink, which is simply exposed D2 to become a source of heat. Regards, Ed > > > Regards, > > Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Nov 29 12:59:43 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iATKxa3Q023173; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 12:59:36 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iATKxYMw023156; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 12:59:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 12:59:34 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=QTS86tgAP6dkKSxI03nEFVffS2RQOX4zid2cF6LEHc39iD/pJxlJiVV0uoaQqElPmawoTnQbfHjvxBkxFjtIUliVlAaUCs4SN7IBBalZcVXazXJBIcgQNft1qbhADFK/z1BsDITNmxT8GREkWCP09CbYiF/LD5z51HaCQXVRoyU= Message-ID: Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 13:59:17 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: off topic..mad about software registration.......... In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56618 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: scuse me, but dont put words in my mouth. i mentioned A product, photoshop, for which there is no comparable competitor, becuase of the monopolistic way they control the industry. i have not said that software should be free, i have not said that people should pirate everything. i did not say any of the things you so delight in saying i said keith. do the actions of the big houses have anything to do with anything other than making maximum profit? the vast majority of piracy of software is of titles NO LONGER OFFERED FOR SALE FROM THE ORIGINAL COMPANY. please do not subscribe to me a policy i do not bear. i did not make the suggestions you stated i did john. im stating reasons WHY some pirate, not trying to get others to do. if piracy actually became prevelant to the point where it hurt the industry, id be working against it. but thats not going to happen. i did not say they have no overhead, so its okay to rip them off, i stated that my "discounted" purchase of photoshop contained no overhead for the company as they had no printing costs, which, btw, for photoshop (quoting an article for memory, please give a margine of error of +- 5 %) the printing and packaging costs are about 6 bucks a copy, and the coding and creating about 3 bucks a copy. distribution of about 10. thats right, 19 bucks to make, and a price tag of 599 a copy (less 200 if you are a student and send in teh rebate form, rebates already being discussed previously) how about facing the fact that the actions of the big houses are what are driving piracy in the market today, and not vice versa. how about looking at the fact that software and music that IS pirated at higher rates also sells at higher rates, and that drops in price have shown a cooresponding drop in illegal copying. how about recognizing that the average american cannot afford the confiscatory rates being charged by many companies, and that trying to create a competing product is worthless due to market pressures and inabilty to gain funding. im curious keith, what type of software? whats competition like? whats your per unit costs and prices? and if you have found pirated versions of your software, how much of an impact has it actually had on your bottome line? and again, lastly, john, i dont want to not pay a fair value. i am more than willing to pay fair value. i refuse to pay an arbitrarily inflated price that has been put beyond the reach of the average user in order to make per unit sales look better in order to keep stock prices up. and then companies turn around and lay off their staff in large numbers to get stock risers and make a bunch of money on options. photoshop is a great way of looking at it, a perfect example. according to a report by ADOBE last year, there are almost 4 times as many pirated copies of photoshop as legal copies. and adobe doesnt care, because they are still making as much money as if they lowered prices to be able to sell that much, becuase even though theyd make more profit that way, it doesnt look as good on certain ratios used for reporting. its rediculous. and dont get me started on walmart. if sam knew what was being done in his name, we could wrap his ass in copper wire, stick him in a giant donut magnet, and solve the worlds energy problems off the generated power. On Mon, 29 Nov 2004 13:36:26 -0600, Johnson, Steven wrote: > From: John Fields jfields@austin... > Sent: Monday, November 29, 2004 12:05 PM > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > > ... > > > Interestingly, your proselytizing for the purpose of trying to > > recruit converts to your world ("If enough people do it it'll > > be OK") of piracy hardly smacks of anything but dumb greed on > > _your_ part, in that you don't want to pay for the value of > > what you want, you want to pay what _you_ want to pay and you > > want to be the arbiter of what a fair price is. > > This line of reasoning reminds me of a fascinating public television > installment recently aired on FRONTLINE. I believe it was titled "Is WALL > MART GOOD FOR AMERICA?" This is pretty close to the line of reasoning WALL > MART's executives decided to pursue when they recently negotiated with their > major suppliers. The result has been that they occasionally have some of the > cheapest consumer products available, a point they make sure to advertise - > just enough target products to entice customers into the door. Then, they > use the bait and switch tactic to get you to purchase higher end products > that translate into higher profit margins for WALL MART. Meanwhile, several > highly respected American companies, like Rubbermaid which used to be a > major supplier to WALL MART (A company that was written up as one of the > most successful companies in the United States) was forced out of business > because WALL MART essentially _TOLD_ them what they would buy their products > for and not a penny more. Rubbermaid couldn't comply. They were forced out > of business as China became one of WALL MART's major suppliers of consumer > products. Meanwhile, Americans and American companies have been forced out > of business. > > I suspect many may disagree in varying degrees with Leaking Pen's purchasing > philosophy. Never the less, I find myself strangely sympathetic to parts of > it. > > > > > You make up excuses like, "They don't have any overhead so it's > > OK for me to rip them off" which seem appealing but are > > nonsensical in that it doesn't matter _what_ their overhead > > structure looks like, it's none of your business and neither > > are any of their other business practices. Bottom line is, the > > price of the software is the price of the software and if you > > don't like it, don't buy it. > > > >-- > >John Fields > > After watching the FRONTLINE show, my desire to "buy" anything at WALL MART > is practically nil. > > Obviously, being able to sell products at cheaper prices than what is being > sold by all the competitors should eventually translate into higher > standards of living for all the consumers who purchased the items at the > cheaper price. The problem is, at what price and who ends up paying for it. > > Should we be afraid of WALL MART and what it's doing to America? Not an easy > answer. > > Regards, > > Steven Vincent Johnson > www.OrionWorks.com > > -- Fairy tales are more than true: not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten. -G.K. Chesterton From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Nov 29 13:01:27 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iATL1K3Q024024; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 13:01:20 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iATL1JV0024002; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 13:01:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 13:01:19 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=OdDTv2Igg1QWt+MREd/vFE9NWD2FN//xqy5JGWP+JEUKaGdYr8mKkOELrtu/QCYGYFQ4S0UjTYdxSSnbl/2nt/W+x7ggiy+cjKWoHAy/Zm9aod5wue7kDEI96G2PirXB7SKwWUedLETaTnztfPZuKg0reSBpdGT6G48/EXYNZs0= Message-ID: Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 14:01:11 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: The Full Moon & Vortex Posts In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <410-2200411129124816870@earthlink.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56619 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: compare the spikes to mondays... On Mon, 29 Nov 2004 14:37:19 -0500, Harry Veeder wrote: > May be the position of the moon affects CF cells too. > > Harry Veeder > > > > on 11/29/04 7:48 AM, Frederick Sparber at fjsparber@earthlink.net wrote: > > > I told you so, Keith. > > http://www.escribe.com/science/vortex/ > > The record speaks for itself. > > http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2000/pdf/2059.pdf > > That nocturnal infrared "spike" from 2.5 microns (0.5 eV) to 5 microns (0.25 > eV) during the > full moon gets the serotonin-melatonin hormones balance excited. > > Bricks & shingles are mostly transparent to these photons, but water and > cells ain't. :-) > > Frederick > > > -- Fairy tales are more than true: not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten. -G.K. Chesterton From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Nov 29 13:49:03 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iATLmnuc015497; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 13:48:50 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iATLmlCh015473; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 13:48:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 13:48:47 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 16:45:59 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: RE: off topic..mad about software registration.......... In-reply-to: <410-2200411129191239920@earthlink.net> To: vortex-l Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56620 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Software designers should form trade unions. Actually 'designers' of all stripes should as well. The market is super-saturated with exploited designers. Design IS a trade. Like plumbers, designers have butt cracks too, they just aren't visible. ;-) Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Nov 29 13:55:23 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iATLtH3Q009252; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 13:55:17 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iATLtFqu009218; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 13:55:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 13:55:15 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=XvkFmXJAwcJf8taj5ImcfDrch2bx9AOCcDS8bnkY2/qUdjQKE1EMSA4Ps4HD5wmtj+RcqP7QnzmiL+WnS9dqVuG8dI8coy8txAdUxWRVjYsGhq5vukki/l6iD9Bz83dWjhxUxMJswvez4dqj/VeOWi5VG4LoPxqeUFRSvHhNsYc= Message-ID: Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 14:55:09 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: off topic..mad about software registration.......... In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <410-2200411129191239920@earthlink.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56621 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: damn skippy. btw, i should like to add that i rarely pirate myself, and never a small company. i find out about someone i know doing so, pirating a small comp or a personal programmer, well, they never will trace that trojan to the file i sent them. theres not enough left. On Mon, 29 Nov 2004 16:45:59 -0500, Harry Veeder wrote: > Software designers should form trade unions. > > Actually 'designers' of all stripes should as well. > > The market is super-saturated with exploited designers. > > Design IS a trade. Like plumbers, designers have butt cracks too, > they just aren't visible. ;-) > > Harry > > -- Fairy tales are more than true: not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten. -G.K. Chesterton From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Nov 29 13:55:48 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iATLtd3Q009420; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 13:55:39 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iATLtcDp009408; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 13:55:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 13:55:38 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: John Fields To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: off topic..mad about software registration.......... Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 15:55:28 -0600 Organization: Austin Instruments, Inc Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id iATLta3Q009384 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56622 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Mon, 29 Nov 2004 13:59:17 -0700, you wrote: >scuse me, but dont put words in my mouth. i mentioned A product, >photoshop, for which there is no comparable competitor, becuase of the >monopolistic way they control the industry. i have not said that >software should be free, i have not said that people should pirate >everything. i did not say any of the things you so delight in saying >i said keith. do the actions of the big houses have anything to do >with anything other than making maximum profit? the vast majority of >piracy of software is of titles NO LONGER OFFERED FOR SALE FROM THE >ORIGINAL COMPANY. please do not subscribe to me a policy i do not >bear. i did not make the suggestions you stated i did john. im >stating reasons WHY some pirate, not trying to get others to do. if >piracy actually became prevelant to the point where it hurt the >industry, id be working against it. but thats not going to happen. i >did not say they have no overhead, so its okay to rip them off, i >stated that my "discounted" purchase of photoshop contained no >overhead for the company as they had no printing costs, which, btw, >for photoshop (quoting an article for memory, please give a margine of >error of +- 5 %) the printing and packaging costs are about 6 bucks a >copy, and the coding and creating about 3 bucks a copy. distribution >of about 10. thats right, 19 bucks to make, and a price tag of 599 a >copy (less 200 if you are a student and send in teh rebate form, >rebates already being discussed previously) > >how about facing the fact that the actions of the big houses are what >are driving piracy in the market today, and not vice versa. how about >looking at the fact that software and music that IS pirated at higher >rates also sells at higher rates, and that drops in price have shown a >cooresponding drop in illegal copying. how about recognizing that the >average american cannot afford the confiscatory rates being charged by >many companies, and that trying to create a competing product is >worthless due to market pressures and inabilty to gain funding. im >curious keith, what type of software? whats competition like? whats >your per unit costs and prices? and if you have found pirated >versions of your software, how much of an impact has it actually had >on your bottome line? > > >and again, lastly, john, i dont want to not pay a fair value. i am >more than willing to pay fair value. i refuse to pay an arbitrarily >inflated price that has been put beyond the reach of the average user >in order to make per unit sales look better in order to keep stock >prices up. and then companies turn around and lay off their staff in >large numbers to get stock risers and make a bunch of money on >options. > >photoshop is a great way of looking at it, a perfect example. >according to a report by ADOBE last year, there are almost 4 times as >many pirated copies of photoshop as legal copies. and adobe doesnt >care, because they are still making as much money as if they lowered >prices to be able to sell that much, becuase even though theyd make >more profit that way, it doesnt look as good on certain ratios used >for reporting. its rediculous. --- What's "rediculous" is the posturing you're doing in order to try to get off the hook that you've gotten yourself onto by writing: " i keep my consience clear, if i pirate a piece of software, i send the company a cashiers check for what i feel is a fair price. 30 bucks for photoshop, say. they cant track me, but i paid them what is essentially pure profit, as there was no overhead involved to them, and i wasnt going to buy it no matter what, so no loss is involved." I'm sure you understand that Photoshop isn't shareware and that the company isn't asking for voluntary contributions from pirates to keep them going, and yet you pretend that by having the "decency" to do so that relieves you of any responsibility for your theft. It doesn't, and no matter how you whine and cry and scream and stamp your feet, if you don't pay the going rate for the software or buy it discounted from a legal source, you're stealing it. It's just that simple. --- >and dont get me started on walmart. if sam knew what was being done >in his name, we could wrap his ass in copper wire, stick him in a >giant donut magnet, and solve the worlds energy problems off the >generated power. --- Since you haven't even gotten close to Sam's shoes, let alone walked a mile in them, I doubt whether you really have a clue about how he would have acted under _any_ set of circumstances. -- John Fields From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Nov 29 14:03:36 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iATM3O3Q012193; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 14:03:24 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iATM3I9n012063; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 14:03:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 14:03:18 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=bCij0+84DQMzaWVk4Q0Rtx+UbPOAI95vSRM4NsxLB0u0YLCWpBKA+zLf3wB5bfR4fID9b5UIOueDR1R2KcYtb8Q1RHvPJgqaD2yLUH67YGuJF2L7REes1+2boNQ9K8IF/+QglNy8IORjDW/iB8CzQJ4gJ5Dsuxd9JWNopTtqqmI= Message-ID: Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 15:00:28 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: off topic..mad about software registration.......... In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56623 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: amazing you should say that. you obviously know everything about me to say that. i couldnt possibly know anything about him. hmm. well, other than reading his autobiography, and a few biographies done of him, for a report in economics 101 a few years back. and i have yet to hear some answers to my questions. drop the straw man. On Mon, 29 Nov 2004 15:55:28 -0600, John Fields wrote: > On Mon, 29 Nov 2004 13:59:17 -0700, you wrote: > > > > >scuse me, but dont put words in my mouth. i mentioned A product, > >photoshop, for which there is no comparable competitor, becuase of the > >monopolistic way they control the industry. i have not said that > >software should be free, i have not said that people should pirate > >everything. i did not say any of the things you so delight in saying > >i said keith. do the actions of the big houses have anything to do > >with anything other than making maximum profit? the vast majority of > >piracy of software is of titles NO LONGER OFFERED FOR SALE FROM THE > >ORIGINAL COMPANY. please do not subscribe to me a policy i do not > >bear. i did not make the suggestions you stated i did john. im > >stating reasons WHY some pirate, not trying to get others to do. if > >piracy actually became prevelant to the point where it hurt the > >industry, id be working against it. but thats not going to happen. i > >did not say they have no overhead, so its okay to rip them off, i > >stated that my "discounted" purchase of photoshop contained no > >overhead for the company as they had no printing costs, which, btw, > >for photoshop (quoting an article for memory, please give a margine of > >error of +- 5 %) the printing and packaging costs are about 6 bucks a > >copy, and the coding and creating about 3 bucks a copy. distribution > >of about 10. thats right, 19 bucks to make, and a price tag of 599 a > >copy (less 200 if you are a student and send in teh rebate form, > >rebates already being discussed previously) > > > >how about facing the fact that the actions of the big houses are what > >are driving piracy in the market today, and not vice versa. how about > >looking at the fact that software and music that IS pirated at higher > >rates also sells at higher rates, and that drops in price have shown a > >cooresponding drop in illegal copying. how about recognizing that the > >average american cannot afford the confiscatory rates being charged by > >many companies, and that trying to create a competing product is > >worthless due to market pressures and inabilty to gain funding. im > >curious keith, what type of software? whats competition like? whats > >your per unit costs and prices? and if you have found pirated > >versions of your software, how much of an impact has it actually had > >on your bottome line? > > > > > >and again, lastly, john, i dont want to not pay a fair value. i am > >more than willing to pay fair value. i refuse to pay an arbitrarily > >inflated price that has been put beyond the reach of the average user > >in order to make per unit sales look better in order to keep stock > >prices up. and then companies turn around and lay off their staff in > >large numbers to get stock risers and make a bunch of money on > >options. > > > >photoshop is a great way of looking at it, a perfect example. > >according to a report by ADOBE last year, there are almost 4 times as > >many pirated copies of photoshop as legal copies. and adobe doesnt > >care, because they are still making as much money as if they lowered > >prices to be able to sell that much, becuase even though theyd make > >more profit that way, it doesnt look as good on certain ratios used > >for reporting. its rediculous. > > --- > What's "rediculous" is the posturing you're doing in order to try to > get off the hook that you've gotten yourself onto by writing: > > " i keep my consience clear, if i pirate a > piece of software, i send the company a cashiers check for what i feel > is a fair price. 30 bucks for photoshop, say. they cant track me, > but i paid them what is essentially pure profit, as there was no > overhead involved to them, and i wasnt going to buy it no matter what, > so no loss is involved." > > I'm sure you understand that Photoshop isn't shareware and that the > company isn't asking for voluntary contributions from pirates to keep > them going, and yet you pretend that by having the "decency" to do so > that relieves you of any responsibility for your theft. It doesn't, > and no matter how you whine and cry and scream and stamp your feet, if > you don't pay the going rate for the software or buy it discounted > from a legal source, you're stealing it. It's just that simple. > --- > > >and dont get me started on walmart. if sam knew what was being done > >in his name, we could wrap his ass in copper wire, stick him in a > >giant donut magnet, and solve the worlds energy problems off the > >generated power. > > --- > Since you haven't even gotten close to Sam's shoes, let alone walked a > mile in them, I doubt whether you really have a clue about how he > would have acted under _any_ set of circumstances. > > -- > John Fields > > -- Fairy tales are more than true: not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten. -G.K. Chesterton From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Nov 29 14:04:04 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iATM3huc020954; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 14:03:43 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iATM3cmI020915; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 14:03:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 14:03:38 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: John Fields To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: off topic..mad about software registration.......... Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 16:02:28 -0600 Organization: Austin Instruments, Inc Message-ID: References: <410-2200411129191239920@earthlink.net> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id iATM2fuc020650 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56624 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Mon, 29 Nov 2004 14:55:09 -0700, you wrote: >damn skippy. btw, i should like to add that i rarely pirate myself, >and never a small company. i find out about someone i know doing so, >pirating a small comp or a personal programmer, well, they never will >trace that trojan to the file i sent them. theres not enough left. --- A petty thief who fancies himself fit to be the judge, jury and executioner of those who steal in ways of which he doesn't approve? Hmmm... -- John Fields From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Nov 29 14:24:20 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iATMO5uc028522; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 14:24:06 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iATMO3H9028504; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 14:24:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 14:24:03 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: John Fields To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: off topic..mad about software registration.......... Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 16:23:53 -0600 Organization: Austin Instruments, Inc Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id iATMO0uc028458 Resent-Message-ID: <-DBFEB.A.U9G.DG6qBB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56625 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Mon, 29 Nov 2004 15:00:28 -0700, you wrote: >amazing you should say that. you obviously know everything about me >to say that. i couldnt possibly know anything about him. hmm. well, >other than reading his autobiography, and a few biographies done of >him, for a report in economics 101 a few years back. --- Yes, so of course you're an authority and you've decided to model your life after his by becoming a small-time software pirate? --- >and i have yet to hear some answers to my questions. drop the straw man. --- You don't ask questions, you mouth irrelevant twaddle which you hope replies to will help you feel less unimportant. -- John Fields From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Nov 29 14:35:42 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iATMZa3Q022182; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 14:35:36 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iATMZYb4022166; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 14:35:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 14:35:34 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=YZZxmWLwPf4FIU8HduIlp1BybwSnvDeA/lJWq1z728t2AJP/KxbK7qSyw+wwdYrX28SM2eCkcY0igFFw+z5Lj2foPjCISC6EPGZ2GwO5xR2rys/plcPGWiJnq7mND8N4uW+ADNQuqyGJKu6+bgVpK2SRXxiXFwoZV2yWc2gtpVY= Message-ID: Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 15:35:25 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: off topic..mad about software registration.......... In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56626 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: hmm, moving from indirect insulting to direct insulting without addressing any points made. yup, its official. youve now made sure everyone here knows what you are. goodbye. On Mon, 29 Nov 2004 16:23:53 -0600, John Fields wrote: > On Mon, 29 Nov 2004 15:00:28 -0700, you wrote: > > >amazing you should say that. you obviously know everything about me > >to say that. i couldnt possibly know anything about him. hmm. well, > >other than reading his autobiography, and a few biographies done of > >him, for a report in economics 101 a few years back. > > --- > Yes, so of course you're an authority and you've decided to model your > life after his by becoming a small-time software pirate? > --- > > >and i have yet to hear some answers to my questions. drop the straw man. > > --- > You don't ask questions, you mouth irrelevant twaddle which you hope > replies to will help you feel less unimportant. > > -- > John Fields > > -- Fairy tales are more than true: not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten. -G.K. Chesterton From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Nov 29 15:27:06 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iATNQpuc015748; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 15:26:51 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iATNQm5q015721; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 15:26:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 15:26:48 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: John Fields To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: off topic..mad about software registration.......... Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 17:26:29 -0600 Organization: Austin Instruments, Inc Message-ID: <7qbnq093hr13ajed3s6a3fd3hu2kf3lq8o@4ax.com> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id iATNQjuc015694 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56627 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Mon, 29 Nov 2004 15:35:25 -0700, you wrote: >hmm, moving from indirect insulting to direct insulting without >addressing any points made. yup, its official. > > > >youve now made sure everyone here knows what you are. goodbye. --- Yes, and unlike you, _not_ a thief. Goodbye!-) -- John Fields From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Nov 29 15:50:51 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iATNom3Q006689; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 15:50:48 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iATNogok006637; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 15:50:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 15:50:42 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.1.2.0.2.20041129185016.0263c5b0@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: JedRothwell@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.2.0 Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 18:50:37 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Test, please ignore Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <1cO4DB.A.lnB.RX7qBB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56628 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Test only . . . From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Nov 29 16:23:03 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAU0Mt3Q015621; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 16:22:56 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAU0MsUS015596; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 16:22:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 16:22:54 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <00c801c4d672$a54f9b10$592febdc@Inspiron1100> From: "Geoff Haselhurst" To: "thomas malloy" , References: Subject: Haselhurst website Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 08:16:19 +0800 Organization: Space and Motion - Wave Structure of Matter MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00B3_01C4D6B4.DEF65740" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56629 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00B3_01C4D6B4.DEF65740 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Thomas, This was going to be a quick reply, but ended being a little long. I hope it answers your questions. Geoff Haselhurst (GH) > Dear Mr. Haselhurst; > > I read your post on Vortex-L and linked to your homepage. My first > reaction was do you have any practical demonstrations or is this just > theorizing? I look on experimental results as connections of the theorist > to reality. GH - Absolutely agree - experiment is final arbitrator of truth about reality. Read work from Milo Wolff and Chris Hawkings on WSM. http://www.spaceandmotion.com/#Milo.Wolff The most significant is the deduction of the de Broglie wavelength of QT and relativistic mass increase of Relativity due to Doppler shifts of two spherical standing waves moving through one another. As I see it the chances of this being coincidence are nil. Also read; Carver Mead, Collective Electrodynamics - founded on a wave structure of matter. And my page on Metaphysics / foundations of reality is useful; http://www.spaceandmotion.com/Metaphysics-Principles-Reality.htm which explains the limitations of science (founded on empirical things, which are transient and naive real representations of physical reality). > Your link on the musical universe reminds me of Dale Pond's website > www.svpvril.com . GH - I am a member of SVP forum but don't post. Dale runs a nice group. I am more into philosophy physics and metaphysics (rather than their romantic idealism, that the mind is most fundamental) whereas i think Space, and its properties as a wave medium, is fundamental. > I fail to wee what purpose do you think the erotica links have to science. GH - It is pretty obvious from my website that I am a philosopher / metaphysicist rather than a scientist (very big difference). I write about truth and reality applied to subjects that i think are important and interest me. Sex (of which sexual imagery is a part) is both important and interesting (as it is central to our survival / evolution). I also have pages on feminism, philosophy of sex, evolutionary parenting, philosophy of art, kama sutra, evolution, poetry, religion, etc. There are many other reasons, from pragmatic of getting more visitors to website to read on truth and reality (which I also think is very important), to aesthetic and enjoying erotic art, to business and making money from an online shop, to philosophical and understanding why we are sexual, what is the function of sex (it is much more than just reproduction), why have we evolved sexual lust for certain images, why are these beautiful / arousing, how does this affect our society, etc. As i see things, sex and eroticism are fascinating, beautiful and very important subjects, both for philosophers and society in general. But it is really just an early experiment, I will be building a website on evolutionary philosophy of sex at some stage over next year, which will have sections on erotica. A few quotes; "All human beings are sexual creatures and there are few, if any, for whom the whole area of sexuality and relationships is not of interest and concern. (Peter Vardy) Analyse any human emotion, no matter how far it may be removed from the sphere of sex, and you are sure to discover somewhere the primal impulse, to which life owes its perpetuation. The primitive stages can always be re-established; the primitive mind is, in the fullest meaning of the word, imperishable. (Sigmund Freud, 1915) If insemination were the sole biological function of sex, it could be achieved far more economically in a few seconds of mounting and insertion. Indeed, the least social of mammals mate with scarcely more ceremony. The species that have evolved long-term bonds are also, by and large, the ones that rely on elaborate courtship rituals. . . . Love and sex do indeed go together." (Edward O. Wilson, Cambridge, MA: Harvard University Press (1978). On Human Nature) > The website has a diagram of an in waves and and out waves combining to form a standing wave. Does anyone understand this? does it conform with physical reality? GH - Standard wave theory. Spherical waves will necessarily flow in and out through their wave center causing a spherical standing wave about a central point. Tap a glass of water and you get similar effect, though waves are different. > The Lorentz Transformations are caused by a change in velocity and ellopsoidial shape in the In-waves which changes the location of the Wave-Center (and which we "see" as a "Force Accelerating a Particle"). He goes on to say that Lorentz correctly realized that matter existed in an Absolute Space, Aether. Does anyone understand this? GH - Assuming property of space that wave velocity changes with wave amplitude and wave density (this is the central priniciple of WSM as I see things) then it is necessary that part of spherical waves will change velocity as they flow in through other matter, and this will change the location of their wave-center, which we see as the 'particle' moving in space. If correct this is the foundation of all forces, thus not trivial. Wrt the ether / space, Lorentz wrote; 'I cannot but regard the ether, which can be the seat of an electromagnetic field with its energy and its vibrations, as endowed with a certain degree of substantiality, however different it may be from all ordinary matter.' (Lorentz, The Theory of the Electron, 1906) Further both Faraday and Maxwell agreed that Space exists. 'I cannot conceive curved lines of force without the conditions of a physical existence in that intermediate Space.' (Faraday) "In speaking of the Energy of the field, however, I wish to be understood literally. All energy is the same as mechanical energy, whether it exists in the form of motion or in that of elasticity, or in any other form. The energy in electromagnetic phenomena is mechanical energy." (James Clerk Maxwell) GH - In fact lots of philosophers for thousands of years have thought space must exist, their failure was always to understand its properties, and thus how it formed matter (and we experience that all matter exists in space, i.e. very sound empirical foundation to WSM). As I see the history of physics, the biggest mistake was the addition of concepts of 'particles' and 'time' to space (in particular Newton), rather than exploring its properties as a wave medium. > I thought that the website started off well, however they then go off on a tangent and end up with the viewpoint of eastern mysticism, that we can't make objective sense of physical reality. GH - We can make sense of physical reality. But physical reality is different than what we sense, which is merely a representation of the mind (which is why science alone tends to mislead us). It is metaphysics, and the central realisation that reality must be founded on one thing (to connect the many things we experience), which enables us to get beyond the illusion of our senses. i.e. To use reason to work out what must exist, to enable us to experience what we sense exists. And central to this is the realisation that ALL is ONE (Mysticism). Hope this answers some of the criticism. Geoff PS - A few quotes on the relationship between mysticism (all is one) and science; "The most beautiful and most profound experience is the sensation of the mystical. It is the sower of all true science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead. To know that what is impenetrable to us really exists, manifesting itself as the highest wisdom and the most radiant beauty which our dull faculties can comprehend only in their primitive forms - this knowledge, this feeling is at the center of true religiousness." (Albert Einstein,The Merging of Spirit and Science) "What gave these men the right to be considered philosophers, unlike the other astronomers, geographers and doctors who were active especially in the latter half of the period, was their common assumption that the world possessed some kind of integral unity and determinability which could be understood and explained in rational terms. A more important debt to myth appears in the central presupposition that the world is coherent and intelligible, is somehow a unity in spite of the diversity of its appearance." (Nietzsche, 1890) "It is from the more or less obscure intuition of the oneness that is the ground and principle of all multiplicity that philosophy takes its source. And not alone philosophy, but natural science as well. All science, in Meyerson's phrase, is the reduction of multiplicities to identities. Divining the One within and beyond the many, we find an intrinsic plausibility in any explanation of the diverse in terms of a single principle." (Aldous Huxley, The Perennial Philosophy) And on Metaphysics and unity of Reality (Aristotle, 340BC) Metaphysics is universal and is exclusively concerned with primary substance. ... And here we will have the science to study that which is just as that which is, both in its essence and in the properties which, just as a thing that is, it has. ... That among entities there must be some cause which moves and combines things. ... There must then be a principle of such a kind that its substance is activity. (Aristotle, Metaphysics) (Leibniz, 1670) Reality cannot be found except in One single source, because of the interconnection of all things with one another. ... I maintain also that substances, whether material or immaterial, cannot be conceived in their bare essence without any activity, activity being of the essence of substance in general. (Leibniz, Monadology) (Bradley, 1846-1924) We may agree, perhaps, to understand by Metaphysics an attempt to know reality as against mere appearance, or the study of first principles or ultimate truths, or again the effort to comprehend the universe, not simply piecemeal or by fragments, but somehow as a whole. 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Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------090407000108020701050501" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56630 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------090407000108020701050501 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Researchers are preparing to test the highly controversial theory of a San Diego scientist, J. Marvin Herndon, who thinks a huge, natural nuclear reactor or "georeactor" -- a vast deposit of uranium several miles wide -- exists at Earth's core, thousands of miles beneath our feet. http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2004/11/29/MNGPIA17BL45.DTL --------------090407000108020701050501 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Researchers are preparing to test the highly controversial theory of a San Diego scientist, J. Marvin Herndon, who thinks a huge, natural nuclear reactor or "georeactor" -- a vast deposit of uranium several miles wide -- exists at Earth's core, thousands of miles beneath our feet.


http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2004/11/29/MNGPIA17BL45.DTL
--------------090407000108020701050501-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Nov 29 18:28:51 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAU2SgvD015888; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 18:28:43 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAU2SdLh015851; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 18:28:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 18:28:39 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000e01c4d684$49707370$0100007f@xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Hazelhurst website Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 20:27:53 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000A_01C4D651.E738F060"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: $ X-Spam-Status: No, hits=1.4 required=4.0 tests=HTML_30_40,HTML_MESSAGE, J_CHICKENPOX_22 autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56631 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C4D651.E738F060 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000B_01C4D651.E738F060" ------=_NextPart_001_000B_01C4D651.E738F060 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankThe site is long on philosophical quotes by period personalities = but totally lacking in quotes by King Solomon as written in the book of = Ecclesiastes... Solomon was credited as being the most knowledgeable man = that ever lived. Well... err.. until he took on some 700 wives which = had to be just dumb... Geoff would likely write them off as an erotic = distraction. Anyway, Solomon did state precepts that have withstood the = test of time. Solomon wrote : He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has = also set eternity in the hearts of men; yet they cannot fathom what God = has done from beginning to end. ecc.3:11 and again he wrote: For much wisdom comes much sorrow; the more = knowledge, the more grief. ecc.1:18 and again he wrote: Of making books there is no end, and much study = wearies the body.ecc.12:12 Leibniz et.al. devote much time explaining why the King's robe can be = seen only by the intellectuals of the world. I read recently that more than 50% of the college majors in France are = now in philosophy, surely after 150 years they would fathom Marx and = Engels were just kidding in the coffee shop and never to be taken = serious. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_000B_01C4D651.E738F060 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
The site is long on philosophical quotes by = period=20 personalities but totally lacking in quotes by King Solomon as written = in the=20 book of Ecclesiastes... Solomon was credited as being the most = knowledgeable man=20 that ever lived. Well... err.. until he took on  some 700 = wives=20 which had to be just dumb... Geoff would likely write them off as an = erotic=20 distraction. Anyway, Solomon did state precepts that have withstood the = test of=20 time.
 
 
Solomon  wrote : He has made everything = beautiful=20 in its time. He has also set eternity in the hearts of men; yet they = cannot=20 fathom what God has done from beginning to end. ecc.3:11
 
and again he wrote: For much wisdom comes much = sorrow;=20 the more knowledge, the more grief. ecc.1:18
 
and again he wrote:  Of making books = there is no=20 end, and much study wearies the body.ecc.12:12
 
Leibniz et.al. devote much time  = explaining why the=20 King's robe can be seen only by the intellectuals of the=20 world.
 
I read recently that more than 50% of the = college majors=20 in France are now in philosophy, surely after 150 years they would = fathom Marx=20 and Engels were just kidding in the coffee shop and never to be taken=20 serious.
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_000B_01C4D651.E738F060-- ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C4D651.E738F060 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000901c4d684$31ca38a0$0100007f@xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C4D651.E738F060-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Nov 29 19:01:19 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAU319vD025085; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 19:01:09 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAU315lD025051; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 19:01:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 19:01:05 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <410-220041123015945350@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Magnesium Anodes, Interface Potential, Dielectrics, Heat & Work Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 19:59:45 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9407e62247276e2a96f38b00309be24bf8b350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.162.177 Resent-Message-ID: <44jky.A.RHG.xJ-qBB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56632 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Taking a cue from this treatment of dielectrics, work and fields, it seems to me that a sacrificial magnesium anode surrounded by an Anion-Permeable membrane might allow direct conversion of the Pd Cathode CF/OU-Heat to electricity http://www.gyogyitokezek.hu/fe/dielforce.htm http://www.gyogyitokezek.hu/fe/dielphpump.htm IOW. the DC power supply is bucking this possible effect and generating heat only. More on this after the Moon gets over Alaska. :-) Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

Taking a cue from this treatment of dielectrics, work and fields, it seems to me that a
sacrificial magnesium anode surrounded by an Anion-Permeable membrane
might allow direct conversion of the Pd Cathode CF/OU-Heat to electricity
 
 
 
IOW. the DC power supply is bucking this possible effect and generating heat only.
 
More on this after the Moon gets over Alaska.   :-)
 
Frederick
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Nov 29 19:12:34 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAU3CMvD030510; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 19:12:22 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAU3CKIk030495; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 19:12:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 19:12:20 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <017201c4d68a$63311b10$592febdc@Inspiron1100> From: "Geoff Haselhurst" To: References: <20041128164034.27178.qmail@web81101.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: WSM website / applications to LENR Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 11:10:58 +0800 Organization: Space and Motion - Wave Structure of Matter MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56633 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Jones, Thank you for such a nice greeting. Comments below, Geoff Haselhurst (GH) >> Will enjoy reading your posts, but will not be able >> to contribute much as i have a rather large website >> that is in great need of work. >> Sincerely, Geoff Haselhurst >> http://www.spaceandmotion.com > Greetings, > You have done a nice job on your website, and probably > get way too little in the form of recognition from its > world-wide audience. Thanks for keeping it going.... > Many who are influenced by your work, and > appreciative, will nevertheless not take the time to > comment, and instead will probably "borrow" your ideas > with impunity. Like the other kind of "surfing," the > beneficiaries of free information-availability often > take too much for granted. GH - Well said, we do like to get some respect for our work, and the internet can be a bit brutal at times, people take things for granted without showing much appreciation (and a bit of mocking!). But amongst the amny there are nice people who offer praise and encouragement (as you have), and help make it worth while. So thankyou! The website stresses me because i know how quickly it was constructed (as an experiment to see how to get pages to rank well in Google and thus read on the internet) and how poorly parts are written. I have learnt a lot over past year, I hope to now apply this knowledge and greatly improve both website and how it performs on internet. I do support the free access of free knowledge (my website is released as a GNU FDL) so anyone can copy and use it. And i also get a few nice letters each week which is encouraging. But it is early days, and hard to know what effect this website / WSM knowledge has, or how most people perceive it and the idea that we can know reality (which is pretty radical, and in the realm of crackpots unfortunately). > You may find that this group is somewhat more oriented > towards presenting alternate speculation and > hypothesis, which might better serve to explain > anomalies, especially those in LENR (low energy > nuclear reactions) rather than in supporting or > developing any one theory. The group definitely seems > oriented toward trying to isolate aspects of any > theory (the aspects relating to energy) and trying to > find ways to test that in experiment. GH - This is encouraging. I look forward to learning more from you. > Don't want to put you on the spot with an immediate > off-the-wall question, but... > The obvious unknown which many of us would have in > regard to using or applying WSM to alternative energy > research would be: do you see any components of WSM > which can be tested experimentally, and which might > lead to improvements in either extracting energy from > previously unused sources, or in maximizing the way we > extract energy from the common sources? > Regards, Jones Beene GH - You make me smile! What a lovely question to stop a theorist in their tracks. My early thoughts (which are a bit rambling - sorry). 1. At the moment I cannot offer a precise experiment, I have too little knowledge. My ideas are founded mainly on philosophy and metaphysics, though i do also have reasonable knowledge of the history and evolution of theoretical physics. I do plan on learning more about LENR and current experiments, and hope in time that I can offer some sensible thoughts on experiments. 2. However, by providing principles / metaphysical foundations for reality, the WSM would certainly present experimentalists with a different world view, and this would eventually lead to different experiments being imagined and tested (that would not normally be considered). And if the WSM is true, then you would expect some of these to be successful. 3. The WSM suggests that matter is large (a structure of the universe, and resonating with other matter in the universe). I live in the wilderness of SW Australia (a hermit philosopher!), and generate my own electricity with solar panels (which powers this computer and these emails - a nice thought). While solar energy is accepted by everyone, LENR is not (yet they are both forms of 'spooky free energy from space' as i see things). The WSM explains why we can capture energy from matter in the space around us, because that space is our matter (as spherical standing waves in space). These electron wave structures form discrete standing wave patterns in atoms / molecules (related to Schrodinger Wave Equations) which can change from one wave pattern / function to another. This occurs because electrons must be acting as spherical resonators and can resonantly couple with other matter wave resonances in space around them. This is how WSM explains discrete energy states (QT) for both light and matter (rather than using conception of 'particles' - thus eliminating many problems from science caused by the discrete particle conception of matter). The credit for this work belongs largely to Milo Wolff (though i now get quite a few wave theorists writing to me, and others have also found similar things). As i understand WSM / physics it is more rare / difficult to get nuclear changes to occur, as the binding energy between wave structures is much stronger. In WSM terms I suppose the wave sharing is much closer, and the wave amplitudes much greater, thus it takes a larger wave amplitude interaction to break this bond. I assume that radioactive decay occurs because in a wave universe from time to time wave interactions will cause tightly bound wave structures to break apart. I realise this is far from satisfactory for mathematical physicists, and requires careful mathematical treatment way beyond my abilities. Anyway, the point of the ramble is that you must work out what wave interactions are required to break apart your wave structures (which are bound together by being trapped in repeating wave patterns). And here I have assumed fission, but I suppose this also applies to fusion, and getting wave centers / particles to bind together (share in and out waves / form a repeating wave pattern). Whether there are practical ways to do this (e.g. at normal temperature) that liberate useful amounts of energy i don't know. But it certainly seems possible and worth exploring (considering the profoundly beneficial consequences to humanity possible with a clean 'free energy' source). I hope that I can add substantially more to this over next few years. Again, my sincere thanks for your kind words. It is at times hard being a philosopher writing on truth and reality, kindness is greatly appreciated. Geoff Haselhurst CC Milo Wolff, WSM Group - Any thoughts on LENR (Cold Fusion)? From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Nov 29 20:14:02 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAU4DsCL007734; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 20:13:54 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAU4DqEH007714; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 20:13:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 20:13:52 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner@mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 19:20:52 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: CF lattice building with carbon Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56634 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:21 PM 11/29/4, Edmund Storms wrote: >Horace Heffner wrote: > >> Codeposition electrolysis using a weak carbolic acid, i.e. phenol, an >> aromatic ring with attached OH, or oher organic compound, combined with >> Li2SO4 and heavy water to form the electrolyte, and a Pd anode, may form on >> the cathode surface a volume which supports a larger than typical nuclear >> active state (NAS) zone as Ed Storms calls it [See "The Nature of >> Energy-Active State in Pd-D", Published in Infinite Energy #5,6 (1996)]. >> Ed's research shows the NAS to be located to within a zone about a micron >> in depth beneath the cathode surface, and that the active (successful) Pd >> cathodes tend not to expand when loaded. > >The Pd expands when loaded. This can not be stopped. However, this expansion >does not produce cracking. Yes, my mistake. The above should say "... and that the active (successful) Pd cathodes tend not to expand when loaded to a volume in excess of that expected using the "published lattice parameter." That excess volume you defined in your subject article as "excess volume", or "EV". Your article in Fig. 3 shows as "potentially active" those cathodes having about 2.4 percent EV or less. The implication is the same though, that bulding a strong non-cracking confinement matrix is key, and I am suggesting codeposition of carbon rings or fullerenes into the right alloy may achieve that goal. As you say in your article, some of the EV is due to cracking, so the lower the EV the less the cracking. I am simply restating at this length so as to let you know I actually read and understood the article. Another requirement, namely building strong defects, is also potentially met by inclusion of carbon rings or fullerenes. All speculation on my part, but reasoned speculation. Carbon does a good job of hardening steel, so it may do some miracles codeposited with the right alloy, i.e to make the right alloy. One way to adjust the relative contents of various metals in a codeposited matrix is to use multiple anodes and control the relative current in each during the deposition process. Provided the deposition environment is well cleaned, it would hopefully be possible to create alloy compositions with adequate control. One means to avoid non-uniform ion distribution on the cathode, due to differing anode positions and sizes, might be to use an "ion bridge", a narrow channel, between a pool holding the anodes and a pool holding the cathode. Sputtering might be used to speed things up, but it seems to me offhand that codepostion provides the opportunity for much more control of metal mix in the process, plus the ability to deposit hydrogen, lithium, and carbon aromatic rings all at the same time. [snip] >I suggest a distinction needs to be made between a bulk effect and an effect >based on a large amount of the NAE. Once the NAE is understood, it will be >made as a powder or deposited on a heat sink, which is simply exposed D2 to >become a source of heat. [snip] True, but I have to wonder about the prediction. I suppose if the Case cell truly works then the above is practically a proven fact. We haven't heard much about Case lately though, or Russ George who was continuing along the same lines. I think it would be conventient to have a throttled heat source - though I suppose the hydrogen could be removed to throttle down. X-ray stimulation strikes me as a handy throttle, though the energy overhead might be too large. As I noted in the "Chicea Carbon Creation Counter-Commentary" thread 11/26/04, the electron flux should be roughly 1x10^19 electrons/((cm^2)*s), which is about 1.6 A/cm^2, which, at 20 kV per electron is 32 kW/cm^2. Fortunately, much of that should come from secondary electrons. The main problem is achieving the right conditions throughout a bulk to sustain. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Nov 29 21:39:48 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAU5ddCL029869; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 21:39:43 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAU5dY6q029820; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 21:39:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 21:39:34 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: CF lattice building with carbon Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 00:38:56 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56635 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Horace. You write: >One way to adjust the relative contents of various metals in a codeposited >matrix is to use multiple anodes and control the relative current in each >during the deposition process. Provided the deposition environment is well >cleaned, it would hopefully be possible to create alloy compositions with >adequate control. I've been all over this one, and I can say that electrolytic codeposition is a monster of a process for manufacturing purposes and not even very good for making lab prototypes. I've had OK luck with combinations like zinc and nickel, or situations where one metal will readily dissolve in another ( for example, mercury plated on just about any substrate will form an alloy in a few hours time ). I think you'd have much better luck using a sputtering technique. It's hard enough to control the chemistry with a single anode, trying to maintain ionic concentrations with different metal anodes is a nightmare. For my experimental work, I'd mix up a batch of electrolyte and use carbon or platinum anodes, replacing the solution when the ion balance would inevitably change. Useless for production work but I could make a few codeposited cathodes for testing purposes pretty reliably that way. I recommend this method if you do any casual experimenting. If you know of some system for depositing carbon, I'd love to hear it. I've never tried it, and am curious enough to get some of that gear out of storage if you know of a way to do it. One thing which did sort of work, along the lines you mention, was to use heavy stirring in a nickel bath and pour active carbon powder into it. The powder would codeposit with the nickel, although not in the intimate manner of a true codeposition. A while back, someone here on Vo, ( Terry maybe? ) posted a link to a story about fullerene cages containing metal atoms. Sounds like a natural candidate for CF experimenting. K. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Nov 29 21:44:11 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAU5i5CL031486; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 21:44:05 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAU5i34e031458; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 21:44:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 21:44:03 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 00:41:42 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: off topic..mad about software registration.......... In-reply-to: To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: <-m_tNB.A.erH.jiArBB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56636 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin Hood, Why can't somebody do something about making newer software more compatible with older platforms. I don't want to hear it is impossible. Skippy on 11/29/04 4:55 PM, leaking pen at itsatrap@gmail.com wrote: > damn skippy. btw, i should like to add that i rarely pirate myself, > and never a small company. i find out about someone i know doing so, > pirating a small comp or a personal programmer, well, they never will > trace that trojan to the file i sent them. theres not enough left. > > On Mon, 29 Nov 2004 16:45:59 -0500, Harry Veeder > wrote: >> Software designers should form trade unions. >> >> Actually 'designers' of all stripes should as well. >> >> The market is super-saturated with exploited designers. >> >> Design IS a trade. Like plumbers, designers have butt cracks too, >> they just aren't visible. ;-) >> >> Harry >> >> > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Nov 29 22:25:30 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAU6PNCL010955; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 22:25:23 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAU6PMEj010948; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 22:25:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 22:25:22 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 01:23:01 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: Haselhurst website In-reply-to: <00c801c4d672$a54f9b10$592febdc@Inspiron1100> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56637 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > > "All human beings are sexual creatures and there are few, if any, for whom > the whole area of sexuality and relationships is not of interest and > concern. (Peter Vardy) > Analyse any human emotion, no matter how far it may be removed from the > sphere of sex, and you are sure to discover somewhere the primal impulse, to > which life owes its perpetuation. > The primitive stages can always be re-established; the primitive mind is, in > the fullest meaning of the word, imperishable. > (Sigmund Freud, 1915) > If insemination were the sole biological function of sex, it could be > achieved far more economically in a few seconds of mounting and insertion. > Indeed, the least social of mammals mate with scarcely more ceremony. The > species that have evolved long-term bonds are also, by and large, the ones > that rely on elaborate courtship rituals. . . . Love and sex do indeed go > together." > (Edward O. Wilson, Cambridge, MA: Harvard University Press (1978). On Human > Nature) > I think the orgasm has its origins in asexual reproduction. Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Nov 30 06:22:58 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAUEMovD001503; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 06:22:50 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAUEMlda001480; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 06:22:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 06:22:47 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <41AC825E.6080306@rtpatlanta.com> Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 09:23:26 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: CF lattice building with carbon References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56638 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Keith Nagel wrote: >A while back, someone here on Vo, ( Terry maybe? ) posted a link to >a story about fullerene cages containing metal atoms. > http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/tyne/3744326.stm Although it's not really clear (from the article) what the blokes have discovered. Anyone have a "Science" subscription? From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Nov 30 06:36:14 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAUEZpCL007523; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 06:35:51 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAUEZl07007443; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 06:35:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 06:35:47 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <410-2200411230133415730@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Magnesium Anodes, Interface Potential, Dielectrics, Heat & Work Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 07:34:15 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9409ca5dc5e2174f9f3b51f6c018ed332fc350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.162.47 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56639 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Hi Jones. I have this notion that there are TeraHz (acoustical, thermal?) oscillations at the liquid-electrode interface that can produce an electrical output (capacitance-charge-potential variations), but are swamped by the DC power supply driving current. No?? This would square with your recent efforts in that area. Some relevant equations. http://www.gyogyitokezek.hu/fe/dielforce.htm Thoughts? Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

Hi Jones.
 
I have this notion that there are TeraHz (acoustical, thermal?) oscillations at the liquid-electrode interface
that can produce an electrical output (capacitance-charge-potential variations), but are swamped by the DC power supply
driving current.  No??
 
This would square with your recent efforts in that area.
 
Some relevant equations.
 
http://www.gyogyitokezek.hu/fe/dielforce.htm
Thoughts?
 
Frederick
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Nov 30 08:25:49 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAUGPiCL007394; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 08:25:44 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAUGPgei007370; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 08:25:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 08:25:42 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=lZnAn4tkjf3DuWrfk2rsWMaEHFM982emMzJxWeFrIIv9rGpl/tG4mVIQy2+pKfaHjthRDZC3p6LcyVl6k9HmRbs08dowsacznG/FoxgrTpyndNmfA7aQ47L2OeaOYtuD2xUPJKNe+uKUVfBrItwjN23KSClRxYw0A3QpzT6/IgI= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 09:25:38 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: off topic..mad about software registration.......... In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56640 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: depends on the software, but most software designed for an os is built to take advantage of features within, many of them new. for new software to work with an older os requires it to be built from the ground up for that older os, and theres really no point from an economic standpoint. its like trying to replace a blown vacuum tube in an old radio with a germanium transistor. its POSSIBLE, but would take a lot of work. On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 00:41:42 -0500, Harry Veeder wrote: > Robin Hood, > > Why can't somebody do something about making newer software > more compatible with older platforms. > > I don't want to hear it is impossible. > > Skippy > > > > > on 11/29/04 4:55 PM, leaking pen at itsatrap@gmail.com wrote: > > > damn skippy. btw, i should like to add that i rarely pirate myself, > > and never a small company. i find out about someone i know doing so, > > pirating a small comp or a personal programmer, well, they never will > > trace that trojan to the file i sent them. theres not enough left. > > > > On Mon, 29 Nov 2004 16:45:59 -0500, Harry Veeder > > wrote: > >> Software designers should form trade unions. > >> > >> Actually 'designers' of all stripes should as well. > >> > >> The market is super-saturated with exploited designers. > >> > >> Design IS a trade. Like plumbers, designers have butt cracks too, > >> they just aren't visible. ;-) > >> > >> Harry > >> > >> > > > > -- Fairy tales are more than true: not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten. -G.K. Chesterton From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Nov 30 11:06:27 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAUJ6MCL032706; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 11:06:22 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAUJ6FYp032643; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 11:06:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 11:06:15 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20041130190607.91256.qmail@web81108.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 11:06:07 -0800 (PST) From: Jones Beene Subject: LENR Interface Potential To: fjsparber@earthlink.net, vortex-l In-Reply-To: <410-2200411230133415730@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <5cZWo.A.79H.mSMrBB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56642 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- Frederick Sparber wrote: > I have this notion that there are TeraHz (acoustical, thermal?) oscillations at the liquid-electrode interface [CF cell] that can produce an electrical output (capacitance-charge-potential variations), but are swamped by the DC power supply driving current. No?? Yes, but not necessarily "swamped". Since THz spectrometers are as rare as hen's teeth, how would you ever know if that is what is going on? This modality goes along with the "proton gas" at the active interface, in some forms of LENR, as mentioned by Miley, forming recurrent wave variations based on the underlying geometry. The frequency which results can be "hit or miss," inasmuch as it depends on the microstructure of the matrix (not uniform). This is not unlike waves in water being influenced by both the depth and bottom features. The DC bias is probably being effectively modulated into THz AC (as felt by the "excitons" at the interface) or at least as THz pulses, depending on capacitance. This seems to be purely a function of interface geometry and therefore of the microstructure of the metal matrix which defines the surface. My suggestion of an applied THz coherent light input would be to convert the "hit or miss" of normal modulated DC into what can be described as "always in phase" The effect should be dramatic - if it exists at all. IOW there is some concern that it could be a carastrophic effect. Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Nov 30 11:20:57 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAUJKnCL005141; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 11:20:49 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAUJKmpi005126; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 11:20:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 11:20:48 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20041130192040.23599.qmail@web81103.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 11:20:40 -0800 (PST) From: Jones Beene Subject: Parametric capacitance To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <1jPFk.A.CQB.PgMrBB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56643 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >From the site mentioned by FS, what is wrong with the suggestion? : http://www.gyogyitokezek.hu/fe/dielcapgen.htm "There are several types of energy converters that convert mechanical energy into electrical energy by changing the capacitance of a charged condenser. The energy content of a capacitor can be calculated with the simple formula of W=Q2/(2C). We can conclude from this correlation that if the capacitance C of the condenser is decreased while the stored charge Q is kept constant (i.e. while the capacitor is disconnected from the power supply) the energy stored in the capacitor will increase." END of quote Sure it will. But will it increase more than the energy expended to separate the plates? Doubtful, but it is an interesting path to pursue, as there have been some positive experiments in the past. If it were OU, then where is the excess energy coming from - ZPE? Which presents the curious conclusion that if process did cohere ZPE, then the "exciton" which is being stimulated in cold fusion, is perhaps getting some of its mechanical energy from ZPE, over an above the electrical input ? BTW don't dismiss this out-of-hand. As fate would have it, the dimensions of the "exciton" are right in there with Casimir. Curious indeed. Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Nov 30 12:12:34 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAUKCTCL020545; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 12:12:29 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAUKCR3i020529; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 12:12:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 12:12:27 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <410-22004112301911980@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: Parametric capacitance Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 13:11:09 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940151c1a48d150bd25f6f67aa11c3e2080350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.44 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56644 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: > > From the site mentioned by FS, what is wrong with the > suggestion? : > > http://www.gyogyitokezek.hu/fe/dielcapgen.htm > > "There are several types of energy converters that > convert mechanical energy into electrical energy by > changing the capacitance of a charged condenser. The > energy content of a capacitor can be calculated with > the simple formula of W=Q2/(2C). We can conclude from > this correlation that if the capacitance C of the > condenser is decreased while the stored charge Q is > kept constant (i.e. while the capacitor is > disconnected from the power supply) the energy stored > in the capacitor will increase." END of quote > This brings in the use of electronics powered by either the DC electrolysis supply or use of a sacrificial anode that can be "gated" by a clock pulse at a GigaHz sampling rate (in effect a chopper) where the cathode and anode interface oscillation signal/energy will be riding on the sampled pulse. Op amp circuitry capable of operating at a few volts should be able to store this energy in a capacitor. > > Which presents the curious conclusion that if process > did cohere ZPE, then the "exciton" which is being > stimulated in cold fusion, is perhaps getting some of > its mechanical energy from ZPE, over an above the > electrical input ? > It should mix in with the CF/OU induced oscillations. > > BTW don't dismiss this out-of-hand. As fate would have > it, the dimensions of the "exciton" are right in there > with Casimir. > About time to start working on getting that energy (thermo-acoustic) into electrical form. Frederick > > Curious indeed. > > Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Nov 30 12:23:07 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAUKN2vD024653; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 12:23:02 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAUKMirF024567; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 12:22:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 12:22:44 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Parametric capacitance Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 15:22:09 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <20041130192040.23599.qmail@web81103.mail.yahoo.com> X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56645 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hey Jones. When I experimented with variable C circuits I used varactor diodes and transmission lines for tapping the harmonics, as well as lumped circuits using back to back diodes and inductors. A mechanical version would be challenging to build. Vaned capacitors as described on the website get pretty big for even 100's of pF, as most of the energy would be stored in the air gap between the dielectric and the metal vane. One aspect of this technology that I think confuses many researchers who stumble into it is that a properly built parametric oscillator will increase it's stored energy until either the parameter variation is saturated or circuit failure occurs. A destructive sparkover event on a small input power can look very impressive to someone unfamiliar with the physics behind this class of oscillator. K. -----Original Message----- From: Jones Beene [mailto:jonesb9@pacbell.net] Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2004 2:21 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Parametric capacitance >From the site mentioned by FS, what is wrong with the suggestion? : http://www.gyogyitokezek.hu/fe/dielcapgen.htm "There are several types of energy converters that convert mechanical energy into electrical energy by changing the capacitance of a charged condenser. The energy content of a capacitor can be calculated with the simple formula of W=Q2/(2C). We can conclude from this correlation that if the capacitance C of the condenser is decreased while the stored charge Q is kept constant (i.e. while the capacitor is disconnected from the power supply) the energy stored in the capacitor will increase." END of quote Sure it will. But will it increase more than the energy expended to separate the plates? Doubtful, but it is an interesting path to pursue, as there have been some positive experiments in the past. If it were OU, then where is the excess energy coming from - ZPE? Which presents the curious conclusion that if process did cohere ZPE, then the "exciton" which is being stimulated in cold fusion, is perhaps getting some of its mechanical energy from ZPE, over an above the electrical input ? BTW don't dismiss this out-of-hand. As fate would have it, the dimensions of the "exciton" are right in there with Casimir. Curious indeed. Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Nov 30 12:36:33 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAUKaMvD028573; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 12:36:22 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAUKaLjW028557; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 12:36:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 12:36:21 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 15:32:38 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: off topic..mad about software registration.......... In-reply-to: <200411301754.iAUHsqCL004268@ultra6.eskimo.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56646 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Great idea. It seems to me 'Utility computing' might be better for society in the long run. As it stands now, younger people today are pressured to purchase assets which depreciate in value. Of course, if you happen to be turned on by computing the future is bright. If you aren't turned on by computing, the future is bleak. Harry on 11/30/04 12:54 PM, Don Wiegel at dwiegel@comcast.net wrote: > A "Near-Future" prediction .. > You can use any computer .. Anywhere. > Just give it your "FingerPrint" (Google Search: biometric security) and all > of your programs and data will be available to you on that computer. It > will all be stored on the "Internet" and your credit card will be billed on > a per use basis for the software and "Operating System". This will eliminate > all of the security and ownership issues of "TODAY". IT Departments will no > longer be needed .. Your computer will always be available to you with out > you carrying any hardware. Nothing will become obsolete. The software > vendors will keep the "VIRTUAL" programs updated. Everybody will be paid > for their work. Microsoft is moving in this direction. > > http://techupdate.zdnet.com/techupdate/stories/main/0,14179,2896789,00.html > "In theory, the utility computing concept is a good idea, and will work best > if several competing utilities and brokers are vying for your business. You > could pipe in CPU cycles, storage, bandwidth and even applications from a > shared pool of resources based on demand and pay only for what you use. You > could create a virtual data center by mixing and matching on-premises and > remotely hosted servers, storage, and applications." > > -DonW- > > > -----Original Message----- > From: leaking pen [mailto:itsatrap@gmail.com] > Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2004 9:26 AM > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > Subject: Re: off topic..mad about software registration.......... > > depends on the software, but most software designed for an os is built to > take advantage of features within, many of them new. for new software to > work with an older os requires it to be built from the ground up for that > older os, and theres really no point from an economic standpoint. its like > trying to replace a blown vacuum tube in an old radio with a germanium > transistor. its POSSIBLE, but would take a lot of work. > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Nov 30 13:03:52 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAUL2NCL000627; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 13:03:44 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAUL2MZS000620; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 13:02:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 13:02:22 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 15:58:39 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: off topic..mad about software registration.......... In-reply-to: To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56647 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The first successful replacement of blown tube with a transistor in an old radio will require a lot of hard work. After that it will get easier. Harry on 11/30/04 11:25 AM, leaking pen at itsatrap@gmail.com wrote: > depends on the software, but most software designed for an os is built > to take advantage of features within, many of them new. for new > software to work with an older os requires it to be built from the > ground up for that older os, and theres really no point from an > economic standpoint. its like trying to replace a blown vacuum tube > in an old radio with a germanium transistor. its POSSIBLE, but would > take a lot of work. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Nov 30 13:33:24 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAULXDvD010573; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 13:33:17 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAULX8hH010547; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 13:33:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 13:33:08 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20041130155303.039be970@pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 16:05:10 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: OFF TOPIC Progress is parallel processing Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56648 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Most of the world's supercomputers now use Massively parallel processor (MPP) architecture. I have long felt this is the wave of the future. The stumbling block has been software. It is difficult to effectively coordinate many different processors. However, progress has been made in this area as well. Starting in 2001, IBM, Toshiba and Sony have been engaged in a hush-hush project to develop small parallel computers. Their initial market will be the Sony PlayStation, which should not surprise anyone familiar with the history of computers. These devices have the potential to make personal computers roughly 100 times faster than the ones available today. See: http://news.com.com/2100-1001-948493.html http://www-1.ibm.com/businesscenter/venturedevelopment/us/en/featurearticle/gcl_xmlid/8649/nav_id/emerging You might think that we do not need computers a hundred times faster than the ones we have, but I think we will find plenty of uses for them. For one thing, they would be a godsend to people like me who use voice input. I think ultimately they will make possible practical robotics and artificial intelligence. Living brains are MPP devices, which is why they can easily out-compute the fastest supercomputers in some tasks, such as pattern recognition. I believe that MPP desktop machines will be the most important development in computing since the invention of the microprocessor, and it will usher in dramatic changes to the industry, just as the microprocessor did. In particular, I predict that it will spell the end of Microsoft's market dominance, and possibly the end of Microsoft altogether. IBM appears to be working to ensure that outcome by developing Linex-based software for the new MPP processors. I think this will endanger Microsoft because developers and end-users alike resent monopolists. They resented IBM when it dominated the market, and they resent Microsoft now. When there is a shift in the technology, and everyone has to go back to square one rewrite all software anyway, they are likely to pick any operating system other than Windows. When technology changes incrementally, it makes sense to stick to a single vendor, even when the product is defective and annoying, and the vendor is surly. But, when it comes time to make a radical change anyway, that is when you around to find something better. This is the "clean slate scenario," and I believe it is Microsoft's worst nightmare. I thought about this "clean slate" because of what has happened to me, personally, over the last three weeks. My office ADSL vendor and the local phone company made a mistake three weeks ago, and cut off my ADSL service. After phoning every day for 2 1/2 weeks, and pleading with them to reconnect me, I decided that I am not a masochist. Why should I spend an hour on hold just for the chance to say: "Thank you sir, and may I have another! Here's my $70! Please abuse me!" So I went shopping for a new ISP and a new local phone company. I did it because I had to -- they were obviously not planning to fix the problem, and I cannot afford to spend three hours uploading revised LENR-CANR.org library files. (By the way, there are several new papers on file, now that I can communicate again.) If circumstances had not forced me to look for a better alternative, I would not have bothered. Circumstances will force everyone to substantially rewrite most software, especially things such as voice input, graphics and video editors, PDF conversion, and other programs that run slow as molasses on today's computers. This will be an excellent example of what C. Christensen calls "disruptive technology." In a sense, the vendors did me a favor. The last message from the ISP representative was: "We cannot find any record of your service connection. We suggest you terminate the account and reopen a new one from scratch." I thought to myself that is an excellent idea, except I will reopen somewhere else. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Nov 30 15:45:57 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAUNjlvD016368; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 15:45:48 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAUNjjhl016355; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 15:45:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 15:45:45 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20041130175843.039cb150@pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 18:38:39 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: RE: OFF TOPIC Progress is parallel processing In-Reply-To: <200411302237.iAUMbvvD029193@ultra5.eskimo.com> References: <6.2.0.14.2.20041130155303.039be970@pop.mindspring.com> <200411302237.iAUMbvvD029193@ultra5.eskimo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56650 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Don Wiegel wrote: >The more that we are "Warehoused" in a manor that is acceptable to the >general population .. The better. You already see the beginnings of this .. >Telework (Telecommuting) .. Video Conferencing (via the internet & faster >computers) .. Virtual Shopping (Eventually you will buy your GROCERIES this >way). I am 100% in favor of telecommuting, satellite offices, and other high-tech replacements for travel, especially for commuting. That is the only reasonable way to solve the traffic problem, reduce pollution, and keep the whole nation from being plowed under to build highways. I HATE highways. Passionately! Highways are the second most destructive technology on earth, after agriculture. > I can see the day when you have a family meal by Video .. Your table >is next to a large video screen, you interact with a life size video of the >absent family member(s) - also having a meal. On the contrary, telecommuting gives families more time together. It also gives people much more time to exercise, garden, or simply stroll around the town. Americans waste billions of hours per year stuck in automobiles, often moving slower than you ride a bicycle. Some people commute for hours a day. This is an incredibly wasteful and stupid way to live. Most of today's jobs do not require the physical presence of coworkers in one place. A dentist or a bricklayer must go to his office or place of work, but most people could do the job just as well by going to a satellite office a few blocks from home, and tying in to a virtual main office where the boss and coworkers are. Things like telecommuting should have been implemented on a nation-wide scale decades ago. If we had only done that, not only would we have happier, saner lives, and far less air pollution, but the U.S. would be a member of OPEC. We would have no connection with events in the Middle East. There would have been no 9/11 attack, and no war. 95% of men under 40 in Saudi Arabia support bin Laden and approve of the 9/11 attack! Why? Because the US supports the Saudi dictatorship and feeds their oil-money addiction. We are mixed up in Saudi Arabia's civil war. We have taken sides, the way we did in Vietnam. All because of cars and highways! The only thing we use oil for is automobiles. All other major uses, such as generating electricity, were phased out 20 years ago. We are destroying the nation and risking a terrorist nuclear attack -- and for what? So that we can make ourselves miserable by driving cars unnecessarily. We derive no benefit from this horrible risk, and this unending war. We are replaying the US Civil War, but unfortunately this time the whole country is on the losing side. Once again we fight for an institution like slavery, that destroys our economy, rots our souls, degrades our morals, and causes nothing but heartache. Just as the South was better off without slavery, we would be better off without oil. And the Saudis would be *way* better off without our money. If they were not burdened with so much mineral wealth, they might have hope, a future, education and real wealth instead. Things like this bother me most of all because the US used to be noted for making changes, reforming, inventing new ways of doing things, and solving problems instead of letting things drift from bad to worse. . . . You know, I believe that if Kerry or some other Democrat had had the guts to say something like what I just wrote, he would have won the election in a walk. It is a shame the Democrats stopped listening to pragmatic people like me. If they will not propose reforms and real solutions they deserve to lose. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Nov 30 16:01:55 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iB101kCL017819; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 16:01:46 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iB101dWR017745; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 16:01:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 16:01:39 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit MIME-Version: 1.0 From: "John Steck" To: "Vortex" Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2004 00:01:32 -0000 Subject: Re: Manufacturing going to China..off topic X-Mailer: PowWeb Hosting Webmail version 3.0 Message-Id: <20041201000141.719CEDEFBE@mail02.powweb.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56651 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The migration of manufacturing jobs is a direct by-product of America's voratious appetite for inexpensive products. The prattle about the "rich getting richer" is just nonesense. It's just supply and demand economics. We humble people in the middle are to blame. We've become too "good" for the work or our chosen lifestyle can not be supported with what compensation is available/offered. The greatest misconception is that manufacturing in China is less expensive. It's not. http://www.dfma.com/truecost/paper.pdf -john ---------- Original Message ------------- Subject: Re: Manufacturing going to China..off topic Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 12:05:24 -0700 From: leaking pen To: vortex-l@eskimo.com something people miss... the more efficient plants in other countries, japan for instance, actually pay more in regular workers salaries. but they pay about 1/50th the ceo salaries, and about 1/20th the high level admin salaries. and becuase of that, are much more profitable. the closing of our plants is caused by the rich getting richer. On Thu, 4 Nov 2004 13:46:46 -0500, Standing Bear wrote: > On Thursday 04 November 2004 12:13, Oleg Palchik wrote: > > > > Who need scientist and engineers here... > > Majority of companies are reducing or closing their R&D. > > Recently I saw on PBS program with one famous investment banker, he > > told:"...scientific revolution is over....". I think I agree with him. > > Scientific revolution is over ....in USA. > > Frank do not hold your breath regarding CF, you can die from suffocation :) > > Oleg > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: FZNIDARSIC@aol.com > > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > > Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2004 11:56 AM > > Subject: Manufacturing going to China..off topic > > > > > > Here in Western PA USA manufacturing plants are closing like mad. Just > > this week we lost two, Hedstrom in Bedford, PA and Fisher Scientific in > > Indiana, PA. > > > > The Fisher production is being relocated to China. > > > > 15 years ago our steel plants closed due to imnence competition from > > Japan. 18 thousand jobs were lost. These jobs have been here for 150 > > years. I worked in the steel plants in the 1970s. The workers told me that > > Johnstown Steel helped to win wars. The government would never allow it to > > close. We would then be dependent on foreign steel; Unacceptable! Time > > has told the story. The steel industry is gone. I took a picture of what > > is left of the once great Johnstown Plant. > > > > http://www.angelfire.com/pa/ParksJohnstown/dome.html > > > > We could, however, go to secondary manufacturing and get a lower paying > > job. Ross Peroe warned us. He said all that hear a sucking sound as > > industry left the county. > > > > Here is a sample of has happened. > > > > Last year Bestform garments went to Mexico. > > > > Two years ago Black and Decker bought Emglo. a local compressor company. > > and moved the production abroad. E glo stand for M Glosser a company > > started by immigrants 80 years ago. In one strike 80 years of building is > > gone. > > > > Three years ago a large Corning Glass Plant in State College moved to > > China. I guess they now have enough electrical power to make glass. > > > > We thought we could downsize our life again and get a low pay job in the > > service industry. > > > > Surprise, Walmart is automating checkout. Opps there goes the low pay > > option. > > > > Greenshan says that the problem is that we don't have enough engineers > > and scientists. I am an engineer and there are no jobs. I don't blame the > > kids for going into other professions. Can we all be nurses? > > > > I don't see the big picture. How to we arrive at greatness by selling > > out and downsizing? > > > > I returned to college 5 years ago to study computer science. The > > professor said. " I see we have a very large class. Blue collar jobs are a > > thing of the past. You need to learn this high tech stuff to get the jobs > > of the future." > > > > Ahh, It has proven easier to move these high tech jobs then it was to > > move the steel industry. Steel requires infrastructure, roads, power, > > water. High tech required only the planting of a satellite dish in the > > ground and an office. High tech is going to India. > > > > Once China meets a critical mass, with our money, technology, and > > plants...why will they need us. They will take the lead with innovation. > > They are smart and have a good work ethic. AT that point will we will > > follow. Hmm I wonder, How do you plant rice? > > > > Bush has his job cut out for him. With industry gone we are now living > > off of an increasing national dept. and trade imbalance. How long can this > > go on? > > > > I hope the DOE comes out with a positive review of cold fusion. We need > > something new. > > > > Frank Z > > Now Frank I don't know about whether we will keep cold fusion either. You > see the way it is being opposed by energy interests in this country now, > this will end up being Chinese as well. While we are fighting, the Chinese > are studying; soon they will be patenting. We will have or may already have > some patents on this as well, but the Chinese will push us out. They will > have the 'patents' and the World Trade Association to back them up as a > 'developing nation' with 'certain priviledges'. They will also have a huge > army and our former industrial base to supply that army. > We, on the other hand, will have to fight them buck naked and barefoot > inasmuch as our textile and shoe industries are now all Chinese. Even my Doc > Martens are now made by the Chinese. All my clothing is made in sweatshops > all over the world, some places paying starvation wages even Chinese would'nt > work for. > > Yakov > > Yeah, and we Russians will be first victims of the Frankenstein's monster > you Americans created in China.....that is after they go after Viet-Nam > and Thailand for their farm crops. They covered all their arable land with > American built factories financed by union givebacks in the mid eighties, so > they have to feed those hungry billions somewhere. > > -- Fairy tales are more than true: not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten. -G.K. Chesterton From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Nov 30 17:02:09 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iB1126CL002511; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 17:02:06 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iB111xpj002457; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 17:01:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 17:01:59 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <019101c4d740$36f4ace0$7cfea8c0@newmicronpc> From: "jonfli" To: References: <20041130192040.23599.qmail@web81103.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Parametric capacitance Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 18:53:46 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56652 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones, You wrote- > From the site mentioned by FS, what is wrong with the > suggestion? : > > http://www.gyogyitokezek.hu/fe/dielcapgen.htm > > "There are several types of energy converters that > convert mechanical energy into electrical energy by > changing the capacitance of a charged condenser. The > energy content of a capacitor can be calculated with > the simple formula of W=Q2/(2C). We can conclude from > this correlation that if the capacitance C of the > condenser is decreased while the stored charge Q is > kept constant (i.e. while the capacitor is > disconnected from the power supply) the energy stored > in the capacitor will increase." END of quote > > Sure it will. > > But will it increase more than the energy expended to > separate the plates? Doubtful, but it is an > interesting path to pursue, as there have been some > positive experiments in the past. Positive as in "OU"? Actually, I happen to think that with clever design, it is possible to build an OU electret generator by overcoming the inherent drag produced by the electrostatic forces. The current problem is one of manufacturing the large surface area ceramics required for the poled dielectrics with minimal distortion. A generator of this type with multiple rotors and stators of sufficient area and minimal spacing to produce say 2-10kw, is beyond the present ability of ceramic manufacturers without a substantial R&D effort and expense. > If it were OU, then > where is the excess energy coming from - ZPE? I'm certainly not qualified to answer this, but I could ask more questions like, what actually is charge? What is the true function of a simple charged capacitance or a poled dielectric? Curious minds wish to know! > Which presents the curious conclusion that if process > did cohere ZPE, then the "exciton" which is being > stimulated in cold fusion, is perhaps getting some of > its mechanical energy from ZPE, over an above the > electrical input ? > > BTW don't dismiss this out-of-hand. As fate would have > it, the dimensions of the "exciton" are right in there > with Casimir. > > Curious indeed. > > Jones I also believe parametric inductance devices will provide means of OU generation. Certain historical generators reported to be OU such as the Hendershot was IMO, one such device. Hendershot himself openly admitted he didn't fully understand it's operation. The "buzzer" section of the device consisting of a coil on core, an movable core section, and a PM, was actually an adjustable parametric transformer with variable reluctance. This required much "fiddling" on the part of the inventor to enable the unit to work as is reported in the documents on the device. Jon F From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Nov 30 14:38:14 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iAUMc0vD029236; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 14:38:04 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iAUMbw5F029228; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 14:37:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 14:37:58 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <200411302237.iAUMbvvD029193@ultra5.eskimo.com> Reply-To: From: "Don Wiegel" To: Subject: RE: OFF TOPIC Progress is parallel processing Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 15:38:01 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20041130155303.039be970@pop.mindspring.com> Thread-Index: AcTXJEFxNoehQwASTSq3h4GkEFvWKQAAToDw Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56649 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Right-On Jed .. The Governments of the World, Big Business, Others are all improving the internet infrastructure at a speed that is truly breathtaking. The Governments want the ability to monitor this type of data flow (Intelligence gathering) .. Big Business for "Data Mining". The Goal is to provide "Virtual products" .. Products that have no "Real" physical form .. Just a movement of data. An example .. The Government is mandating: All Digital TV By 2007 http://www.mostlycreativeworkshop.com/Article5.html "Congress is requiring most broadcasters to convert by 2006 from existing analog technology to more efficient digital television, which allows much more programming and data to be transmitted over one channel. Broadcasters were given second TV channels for free to do so. "When the switch is complete, broadcasters must return their analog channels to the government for other uses, such as wireless telephones." http://www.polymervision.nl/ "Lightweight, large-area displays that are unbreakable and can be rolled up into a small-sized housing when not actively used, are particularly attractive for mobile applications. Ultimately, large-area displays could become feasible, which are so flexible that they can be integrated into everyday objects like a pen. The availability of such displays would greatly stimulate the advance of electronic books, newspapers and magazines, and also new services offered by (third generation) mobile network operators." The more that we are "Warehoused" in a manor that is acceptable to the general population .. The better. You already see the beginnings of this .. Telework (Telecommuting) .. Video Conferencing (via the internet & faster computers) .. Virtual Shopping (Eventually you will buy your GROCERIES this way). I can see the day when you have a family meal by Video .. Your table is next to a large video screen, you interact with a life size video of the absent family member(s) - also having a meal. We will have less physical movement and more virtual movement in our lives .. For BETTER or WORSE!!! -DonW- -----Original Message----- From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:JedRothwell@mindspring.com] Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2004 2:05 PM To: vortex-L@eskimo.com Subject: OFF TOPIC Progress is parallel processing Most of the world's supercomputers now use Massively parallel processor (MPP) architecture. I have long felt this is the wave of the future. The stumbling block has been software. It is difficult to effectively coordinate many different processors. However, progress has been made in this area as well. Starting in 2001, IBM, Toshiba and Sony have been engaged in a hush-hush project to develop small parallel computers. Their initial market will be the Sony PlayStation, which should not surprise anyone familiar with the history of computers. These devices have the potential to make personal computers roughly 100 times faster than the ones available today. See: http://news.com.com/2100-1001-948493.html http://www-1.ibm.com/businesscenter/venturedevelopment/us/en/featurearticle/ gcl_xmlid/8649/nav_id/emerging You might think that we do not need computers a hundred times faster than the ones we have, but I think we will find plenty of uses for them. For one thing, they would be a godsend to people like me who use voice input. I think ultimately they will make possible practical robotics and artificial intelligence. Living brains are MPP devices, which is why they can easily out-compute the fastest supercomputers in some tasks, such as pattern recognition. I believe that MPP desktop machines will be the most important development in computing since the invention of the microprocessor, and it will usher in dramatic changes to the industry, just as the microprocessor did. In particular, I predict that it will spell the end of Microsoft's market dominance, and possibly the end of Microsoft altogether. IBM appears to be working to ensure that outcome by developing Linex-based software for the new MPP processors. I think this will endanger Microsoft because developers and end-users alike resent monopolists. They resented IBM when it dominated the market, and they resent Microsoft now. When there is a shift in the technology, and everyone has to go back to square one rewrite all software anyway, they are likely to pick any operating system other than Windows. When technology changes incrementally, it makes sense to stick to a single vendor, even when the product is defective and annoying, and the vendor is surly. But, when it comes time to make a radical change anyway, that is when you around to find something better. This is the "clean slate scenario," and I believe it is Microsoft's worst nightmare. I thought about this "clean slate" because of what has happened to me, personally, over the last three weeks. My office ADSL vendor and the local phone company made a mistake three weeks ago, and cut off my ADSL service. After phoning every day for 2 1/2 weeks, and pleading with them to reconnect me, I decided that I am not a masochist. Why should I spend an hour on hold just for the chance to say: "Thank you sir, and may I have another! Here's my $70! Please abuse me!" So I went shopping for a new ISP and a new local phone company. I did it because I had to -- they were obviously not planning to fix the problem, and I cannot afford to spend three hours uploading revised LENR-CANR.org library files. (By the way, there are several new papers on file, now that I can communicate again.) If circumstances had not forced me to look for a better alternative, I would not have bothered. Circumstances will force everyone to substantially rewrite most software, especially things such as voice input, graphics and video editors, PDF conversion, and other programs that run slow as molasses on today's computers. This will be an excellent example of what C. Christensen calls "disruptive technology." In a sense, the vendors did me a favor. The last message from the ISP representative was: "We cannot find any record of your service connection. We suggest you terminate the account and reopen a new one from scratch." I thought to myself that is an excellent idea, except I will reopen somewhere else. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Nov 30 18:29:52 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iB12TjCL029123; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 18:29:45 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iB12The6029107; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 18:29:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 18:29:43 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <006d01c4d74d$39f30ce0$d0bcfea9@jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <20041130192040.23599.qmail@web81103.mail.yahoo.com> <019101c4d740$36f4ace0$7cfea8c0@newmicronpc> Subject: Re: Parametric capacitance Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 18:26:53 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: <84FW9D.A.uGH.XySrBB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56653 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ---- Original Message ----- From: "jonfli" > The current problem is one of > manufacturing the large surface area ceramics required for the poled > dielectrics with minimal distortion. A generator of this type with multiple > rotors and stators of sufficient area and minimal spacing to produce say > 2-10kw, is beyond the present ability of ceramic manufacturers without a > substantial R&D effort and expense. I agree, Jon. We are not even close to having that kind of device, especially (as Keith says) if it requires mechanical action. I was thinking more in terms of the analogy to LENR - and by verbalizing it in another way, it appears that a "natural" kind of parametric capacitance could be exactly (or at least similar to) the methodology which is already functioning in certain cathode microstructures, even though it was never planned out that way. The details are fuzzy, but could sound something like this. Imagine a spherical dielectric (or semiconductor) resonator enclosing a core which is a "local" HTSC. Actually the "high" temperature of this particular HTSC could be quite high, several hundred degrees F...BUT... an "effective internal pressurization" gives the deuterium in the core the same kinetic freedom (or lack thereof) which it would have if it were held at a temperature very near zero K. By "local" it is meant that the superconductivity is limited to the interface between the core and the dielectric. The SC current (which could be moving on more than one axis) would give a large magnetic field to the local core, but there would be no macro-field of aligned domains across the electrode (which would have been noticed). The "skin" whether it is dielectric or semiconductor is more ductile and can resonate, with a pulsation gradient that is likely to be a quarter wavelength of its circumference. When pulsing, the dielectric acts like a pump, pushing any atom with "higher mobility" (deuterium) inwards towards the center core, where it becomes effectively immobilized. This dynamic exchange between a (relatively depleted) skin and a (relatively oversaturated)core is critical to the hypothetical methodology. It then permits a cathode which has a "net" loading near 1:1 to still have two stable micro-regions - one which is higher loading and one less high. This is critical because at 1:1 loading, the "effective" pressurization may give superconductivity - but at anything less, it is acting more like a dielectric. IOW that negative .82 electromotive potential has been neutralized. Now imagine that the whole structure, core and skin, is very small. It is composed of a core of perhaps 500 atoms of palladium, fully loaded with slightly more than 500 deuterium ions when there is a flow of current. Surrounding this is a thick layer of Pd with less loading. If Frank Z is correct, the whole structure is 50 nm across. Lets say (and there is some evidence for this) that at full loading the saturated core becomes locally superconductive, but at less than full loading (which is the skin of the exciton) it is closer to a dielectric or semiconductor... this is where I was going with the analogy. Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Nov 30 18:53:23 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iB12r5vD010803; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 18:53:06 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iB12qnTb010690; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 18:52:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 18:52:49 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000e01c4d750$c67e0680$e4037841@xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: Parametric capacitance Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 20:52:19 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000A_01C4D71E.7B61BC50"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.5 required=4.0 tests=HTML_40_50,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: <1bL5P.A.5mC.BITrBB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56654 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C4D71E.7B61BC50 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000B_01C4D71E.7B61BC50" ------=_NextPart_001_000B_01C4D71E.7B61BC50 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankShow me what you need in large surface area ceramics with minimum = distortion. Much progress has been made in manufacturing technology and = include the actual ceramic material desired.. I will look into it. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_000B_01C4D71E.7B61BC50 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Show me what you need in large surface area = ceramics=20 with minimum distortion. Much progress has been made in manufacturing = technology=20 and include the actual ceramic material desired.. I will look into=20 it.
 
Richard
 

 

------=_NextPart_001_000B_01C4D71E.7B61BC50-- ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C4D71E.7B61BC50 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000901c4d750$c5f611d0$e4037841@xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C4D71E.7B61BC50-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Nov 30 21:32:45 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iB15WgrO009198; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 21:32:42 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iB15WWKi009143; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 21:32:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 21:32:32 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: FZNIDARSIC@aol.com Message-ID: <20.3944e165.2edeb15a@aol.com> Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2004 00:32:10 EST Subject: Re: Manufacturing going to China..off topic To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_20.3944e165.2edeb15a_boundary" X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6808 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56655 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --part1_20.3944e165.2edeb15a_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/30/2004 7:02:28 PM Eastern Standard Time, johnsteck@tetrahelix.com writes: > The migration of manufacturing jobs is a direct by-product of America's > voratious appetite for inexpensive products. The prattle about the "rich > getting richer" is just nonesense. It's just supply and demand economics. We > humble people in the middle are to blame. We've become too "good" for the work > or our chosen lifestyle can not be supported with what compensation is > available/offered. > Some good news in this area. Coal mines are reopening. The coal is going to China. I don't understand. Does not China have cheep labor, minimal safety and environmental, and plenty of coal? Why would they need ours? Frank Z --part1_20.3944e165.2edeb15a_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 11/30/2004 7:02:= 28 PM Eastern Standard Time, johnsteck@tetrahelix.com writes:

The migration of manufacturing=20= jobs is a direct by-product of America's voratious appetite for inexpensive=20= products.  The prattle about the "rich getting richer" is just nonesens= e.  It's just supply and demand economics.  We humble people in th= e middle are to blame.  We've become too "good" for the work or our cho= sen lifestyle can not be supported with what compensation is available/offer= ed.


Some good news in this area.  Coal mines are reopening.  The coal=20= is going to China.  I don't understand.  Does not China have cheep= labor, minimal safety and environmental, and plenty of coal?  Why woul= d they need ours?

Frank Z --part1_20.3944e165.2edeb15a_boundary-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Nov 30 22:30:34 2004 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iB16UOlW025303; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 22:30:28 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iB16UMfH025285; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 22:30:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 22:30:22 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner@mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 21:37:17 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Parametric capacitance Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56656 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:20 AM 11/30/4, Jones Beene wrote: >>From the site mentioned by FS, what is wrong with the >suggestion? : > >http://www.gyogyitokezek.hu/fe/dielcapgen.htm > I didn't look at this much because I noticed right off there is a mistake with regard to the fringe force on the edge of a dielectric slab that is well within the plates. The E field lines are not vertical at the slab edge as shown, but rather bend inwards toward the dielectric and there is thus a net force that draws that edge in a direction so as to maximize the amount of dielectric between the plates. There are various electrostatic motors based on this principle which have special application to nano-machines. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Nov 30 22:47:51 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iB16leag006401; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 22:47:40 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iB16lW1T006359; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 22:47:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 22:47:32 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner@mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 21:54:19 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Manufacturing going to China..off topic Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56657 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:32 AM 12/1/4, FZNIDARSIC@aol.com wrote: >Some good news in this area. Coal mines are reopening. The coal is going to >China. I don't understand. Does not China have cheep labor, minimal safety >and environmental, and plenty of coal? Why would they need ours? > >Frank Z Their industrial capacity is booming way ahead of their energy production curve. Their mine safety standards are abysmal and they kill off hundreds of miners every year. Without forced labor it would seem unlikely they could actually grow the coal capacity much more without major safety code revisions. This may actually happen due to recent major accidents. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Nov 30 22:56:10 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iB16u1ag008812; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 22:56:01 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iB16twjA008800; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 22:55:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 22:55:58 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2004 01:53:38 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: off topic..mad about software registration.......... In-reply-to: To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/56658 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Isn't all code ultimately reducible to machine code? Harry on 11/30/04 4:19 PM, leaking pen at itsatrap@gmail.com wrote: > if in every instance, its a different tube and a different transistor? > so each job is unique? thats what its like with software. games are > the most portable, oddly enough, but they use a large amound of > machine code, which is more efficient, though harder to write, and is > subject to MUCH less change than software codings using languages, > such as c. >