From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 1 02:35:53 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j01AZl98010073; Sat, 1 Jan 2005 02:35:47 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j01AZcsR010027; Sat, 1 Jan 2005 02:35:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 02:35:38 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050101103349.006b9258 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 01 Jan 2005 10:33:49 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Light is liquified Gas Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57170 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:39 pm 01-01-05 +0800, F.H.Lew wrote: > Light is liquified Gas >http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn2497 Unfortunately, that URL is one which teases you by flashing up the article for a second and then blanking it. However, I managed to defeat it by pressing the PrintScrn key [I had to have several tries before I got the right synchronization ;-) ], and then googling with a string from the section of the article captured. I found the article at http://www.water-consciousness.com/water_news/wnews_12.htm And since it is quite short I've copied it below. ==================================================================== LIGHT IS LIQUIFIED GAS Light can be turned into a glowing stream of liquid that splits into droplets and splatters off surfaces just like water. The researchers who've worked out how to do this say "liquid light" would be the ideal lifeblood for optical computing, where chips send light around optical "circuits" to process data. Liquid light sounds like a contradiction, since the three phases -- gas, liquid and solid -- usually only apply to atomic matter. Although researchers sometimes talk about a light beam as if it's a gas, because the photons move around randomly within the beam and can exert pressure due to their momentum, they don't usually mean it literally -- until now. You really can think of light as a gas, says Humberto Michinel's team at the University of Vigo in Ourense. And like any gas, it can be made to condense into a liquid. The researchers have been working on "non-linear" materials, which slow light down by an amount that depends on the intensity of the beam rather than simply a fixed amount, as happens in water or glass. In most non-linear materials, the more intense the light, the more it is slowed down. That means the inside of a beam slows more than the outside, as if it were passing through a convex lens, and the beam is focused to a point, rather than transmitted as you'd want in an optical computer. But this doesn't have to happen, Michinel realised. If you have a material in which the light slows less when the intensity of the beam gets very high, then a high-energy laser beam could be concentrated into a tight column instead. This column behaves just like a liquid, says group member Jose Ramon Salguiero at the University of Santiago de Compostela in Spain. Shattered drops The researchers carried out computer simulations of what would happen to a light pulse concentrated in this way. They showed that the pulse had a kind of surface tension, making it stretchy on the outside, and that it would shatter into smaller drops when it bounced off a surface, just like a liquid. Other researchers aren't convinced, however. "The name is catchy and it's a clever idea, but I'm not sure it's really going to change things," says Demetrios Christodoulides at Lehigh University in Bethlehem, Pennsylvania, part of a competing team also working on non-linear materials. One problem is whether the material that Michinel wants to use to test his predictions will be up to the task. Michinel reckons a "chalcogenide" glass made by Frederic Smektala and colleagues at the University of Rennes in France is just right for making liquid light. But Christodoulides says that the material would have to interact so strongly with the light that the droplets would probably be absorbed before they could get anywhere. But if the researchers can make liquid light, blobs of the stuff could form the heart of an optical computer. The speed of silicon- based processors is limited by the rate at which electrons move round circuits. An optical computer based on photons would be much faster, but it's tough to bounce light around without the beam spreading out and information disappearing. "Liquid drops are optimal candidates to be information bits," says Michinel. But Christodoulides believes his own approach is a better bet: adjusting the design of optical pathways so that they handle pulses of ordinary light better. "Pulses are discrete things and you can do digital operations with them," he says. "A liquid can end up anywhere and be quite unpredictable." ==================================================================== It is useful to remember with these kind of articles, that they are often copied by other people onto their own sites [quite illegal no doubt but impossible to police effectively ;-) ]. This mean that one can read the articles without signing up to the original site. All one needs to do is to search with a unusual string from the article. In this particular case I needn't even have gone to the trouble of capturing New Scientist's fleeting page. Searching with the title of the article would have given me what I wanted. Cheers Grimer http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Beta-atmosphere_group/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 1 12:58:51 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j01KwgHx011455; Sat, 1 Jan 2005 12:58:42 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j01KwU6V011404; Sat, 1 Jan 2005 12:58:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 12:58:30 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002301c4f044$15a08420$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: Subject: 2005 Outlook, castrated hogs and such Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 12:54:27 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0020_01C4F001.06B3D9A0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: <6ADNR.A.IyC.27w1BB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57171 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01C4F001.06B3D9A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable HNY: It is customary at the outset of any new year to wish friends and = colleagues the best of luck and good fortune for the coming year. Today, = I will do that ancient tradition one-better by divulging an extremely = "authoritative" (or at least most unlikely) foretelling, but only for = the readers of the vortex news-group as of January 1, 2005. If you = should have the misfortune to have procrastinated, and to have read this = after midnight PST of Jan1, then, sadly, it is possible that you are too = late to be included fully in the group's good fortune ;-) For those who have dillydallied, let us say only "May you live in = interesting times..." One can assume that the new-year's tradition of magnanimous good-will = may involve many unspoken matters, such as family-group-clan bonding and = a show of friendship. Few would venture that the number of favorable = wishes which anyone is able to accumulate during this short transition = period between the old-and-new has any real bearing on actual = circumstances or prospects, however. Otherwise the public turnout for = events where mega-wishes can be garnered in places like Times Square = would be much larger. Lady luck is fickle, but in general our = rational-side wants us to understand that there can only be a "net = neutral" aspect to randomness... with the single exception being... ... the secretly-held but firmly-entrenched and ultra-scientific belief = that many of us succumb to - that being the conviction that = net-randomness, in a statistical sense, will not apply (at least not = unfavorably) to the future prospects for group "x" this year, where "x" = is the clan or group which represents the larger identify of the = individual...=20 ...now, how is that for a heaping serving of "word salad" to go with = your black-eyed peas and ham-hock? Anyway, as a counter-point to the ultra-rationalism which is often = expressed here... you know, things like a recent "Noah's flood" having = been caused by a comet tail ;-) etc. etc. (can one really add enough = smiley's for that one?) ... or hummingbirds powered by hydrinos... = anyway, going hand-in-hand with such rationalism, I decided to cast the = I Ching in order to consult with a higher authority about the prospects = for free-energy in 2005. Lo and behold. I am stunned. A miracle of modern soothsaying. Can you = believe it...? First a side note: if the number of synonyms which any seldom-used = concept carries is indicative of society's fascination with that idea, = then "prophecy" is way up there...=20 ...lets see, we've got (in addition to prophecy and sooth-saying): = divination, foretelling, (all the "p's") prognosis, prognostication, = portent, prediction, premonition, presaging, prescience, prevision, = projection, etc. then we've got the ever-popular "revelation," if you = want to add some religious imprimatur, then there is the more secular: = second sight, psychic vision, the oracle, the seer, the augury, casting = straws, conjecture, crystal-gazing, foresight, foretelling, = fortune-telling, and so on... and despite the fact that basically we = only resort to this kind of "lunacy" a few times a year, nowadays. OK, back to infinite energy in 2005... ta,da... here is what the I Ching = says about the prospects for this fresh new period... and = believe-it-or-not it is the exact same identical reading received only a = week or so ago in regard to a casting for the prospects of JR's online = book!!=20 This is extremely auspicious, in case you don't realize it... that is, = to have the same exact reading twice for two similar questions. The = reason for that is that the I Ching never gives an answer about the = question posed, but it is always to be assumed that the answer is based = on the wider scope of the individual or group WRT to the question. Maybe = Gene's lingering spirit had something to do with it. Here is that = answer, with the traditional anachronistic (or not? ) commentary. Casting for "Free (Infinite) Energy in 2005": The present is embodied in = Hexagram 26 - Ta Ch'u (The Taming Power of the Great): It will be advantageous to be firm and correct. If he does not seek to = enjoy his revenues in his own family, without taking service at court, = there will be good fortune. It will be advantageous for him to cross the = great stream. The fourth line, divided, shows the young bull, yet having the piece of = wood over his horns. There will be great good fortune. The fifth line, = divided, shows the teeth of a castrated hog. There will be good fortune. = The situation is shifting, and Yang (the active masculine force) is = gaining ground. The future is embodied in Hexagram 1 - Ch'ien (The Creative): That which is great and originating, penetrating, advantageous, correct = and firm. The things most apparent, those above and in front, are embodied by the = upper trigram Ken (Mountain), which is transforming into Chi'en = (Heaven). As part of this process, stillness and obstruction are giving = way to strength and creativity. The things least apparent, those below and behind, are embodied by the = lower trigram Chi'en (Heaven), which represents strength and creativity. Wow, isn't that prophecy something, esp. in regard to the "big picture" = :=20 **** "obstruction giving way to creativity" **** And this despite the disappointing DoE review. Will they be forced to = re-review? Quien sabe - all I know for sure is that the casting is a = statistical anomaly which believers in that sort of thing would say = strongly portends the doubly favorable ....=20 Jones If one wished to go waaaaay out on a prophecy-line, then look at the = "thing most apparent," embodied by the upper trigram Ken (Mountain), = which is transforming into Chi'en (Heaven).=20 =20 Now, If I had to "put a name" to any one individual in the field of = free-energy who might be instrumental here, I suspect the natural = choice, given both the phonetics and meaning of the oracle translation, = would be: Ken Shoulders.... no? ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01C4F001.06B3D9A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
HNY: It is customary at the outset of any new year to wish friends = and=20 colleagues the best of luck and good fortune for the coming = year. Today, I=20 will do that ancient tradition one-better by divulging an extremely = "authoritative" (or at least most unlikely) foretelling, but = only for the=20 readers of the vortex news-group as of January 1, 2005. If you = should=20 have the misfortune to have procrastinated, and to have read this after = midnight=20 PST of Jan1, then, sadly, it is possible that you are too late to = be=20 included fully in the group's good fortune ;-)
 
For those who have dillydallied, let us say only "May you live in=20 interesting times..."
 
One can assume that the new-year's tradition of magnanimous = good-will may=20 involve many unspoken matters, such as family-group-clan bonding and a = show of=20 friendship. Few would venture that the number of favorable wishes which = anyone=20 is able to accumulate during this short transition period between the=20 old-and-new has any real bearing on actual circumstances or prospects, = however.=20 Otherwise the public turnout for events where mega-wishes can be = garnered in=20 places like Times Square would be much larger. Lady luck is fickle, but = in=20 general our rational-side wants us to understand that there can = only be a=20 "net neutral" aspect to randomness... with the single exception=20 being...
 
... the secretly-held but firmly-entrenched and=20 ultra-scientific belief that many of us succumb to - that being the = conviction that net-randomness, in a statistical sense, will not = apply (at=20 least not unfavorably) to the future prospects for group "x" this = year,=20 where "x" is the  clan or group which represents the larger = identify of the=20 individual...
 
...now, how is that for a heaping serving of "word salad" to go = with your=20 black-eyed peas and ham-hock?
 
Anyway, as a counter-point to the ultra-rationalism which is often=20 expressed here... you know, things like a recent "Noah's flood" having = been=20 caused by a comet tail ;-)  etc. etc. (can one really add enough = smiley's=20 for that one?) ... or hummingbirds powered by hydrinos... anyway, going=20 hand-in-hand with such rationalism, I decided to cast the I Ching in = order to=20 consult with a higher authority about the prospects for free-energy in=20 2005.
 
Lo and behold. I am stunned. A miracle of modern soothsaying. Can = you=20 believe it...?
 
First a side note: if the number of synonyms which any=20 seldom-used concept carries is indicative of society's fascination = with=20 that idea, then "prophecy" is way up there...
 
...lets see, we've got (in addition to prophecy and=20 sooth-saying): divination, foretelling, (all the "p's") prognosis,=20 prognostication, portent, prediction, premonition, presaging, = prescience,=20 prevision, projection, etc. then we've got the ever-popular = "revelation," if you=20 want to add some religious imprimatur, then there is the more=20 secular: second sight, psychic vision, the oracle, the seer, the = augury,=20 casting straws, conjecture, crystal-gazing, foresight, foretelling,=20 fortune-telling, and so on... and despite the fact that basically we = only resort=20 to this kind of "lunacy" a few times a year, nowadays.
 
OK, back to infinite energy in 2005... ta,da... here is what the I = Ching=20 says about the prospects for this fresh new period... and = believe-it-or-not it=20 is the exact same identical reading received only a week or so ago in = regard to=20 a casting for the prospects of JR's online book!!
 
This is extremely auspicious, in case you don't realize it... that = is, to=20 have the same exact reading twice for two similar questions. The reason = for that=20 is that the I Ching never gives an answer about the question posed, but = it is=20 always to be assumed that the answer is based on the wider scope of the=20 individual or group WRT to the question. Maybe Gene's lingering = spirit had=20 something to do with it. Here is that answer, with the traditional = anachronistic=20 (or not? ) commentary.

Casting for "Free (Infinite) Energy in = 2005": The=20 present is embodied in Hexagram 26 - Ta Ch'u (The Taming Power of the=20 Great):

It will be advantageous to be firm and correct. If he = does not=20 seek to enjoy his revenues in his own family, without taking service at = court,=20 there will be good fortune. It will be advantageous for him to cross the = great=20 stream.

The fourth line, divided, shows the young bull, yet = having the=20 piece of wood over his horns. There will be great good fortune. The = fifth line,=20 divided, shows the teeth of a castrated hog. There will be good fortune. = The=20 situation is shifting, and Yang (the active masculine force) is gaining=20 ground.

The future is embodied in Hexagram 1 - Ch'ien (The=20 Creative):

That which is great and originating, penetrating,=20 advantageous, correct and firm.

The things most apparent, those = above and=20 in front, are embodied by the upper trigram Ken (Mountain), which is=20 transforming into Chi'en (Heaven). As part of this process, stillness = and=20 obstruction are giving way to strength and creativity.

The things = least=20 apparent, those below and behind, are embodied by the lower trigram = Chi'en=20 (Heaven), which represents strength and creativity.

Wow, isn't = that=20 prophecy something, esp. in regard to the "big picture" :
 
****  "obstruction giving way to=20 creativity"   ****
 
And this despite the disappointing DoE review. Will they be forced = to=20 re-review? Quien sabe - all I know for sure is that the casting is = a=20 statistical anomaly which believers in that sort of thing would say = strongly portends the doubly favorable ....

Jones
 
If one wished to go waaaaay out on a prophecy-line, then look at = the "thing=20 most apparent," embodied by the upper trigram Ken (Mountain), which is=20 transforming into Chi'en (Heaven). 
 
Now, If I had to "put a name" to any one individual in the field of = free-energy who might be instrumental here, I suspect the natural = choice, given=20 both the phonetics and meaning of the oracle = translation, would be:=20 Ken Shoulders.... no?
 
 


 
------=_NextPart_000_0020_01C4F001.06B3D9A0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 1 19:55:54 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j023tnf8020508; Sat, 1 Jan 2005 19:55:49 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j023thTS020470; Sat, 1 Jan 2005 19:55:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 19:55:43 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000c01c4f07e$e8b9e920$0100007f xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Whew!!! Year 2004 is finally over Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 21:54:53 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0008_01C4F04C.866E68E0"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: $ X-Spam-Status: No, hits=1.8 required=4.0 tests=HTML_20_30,HTML_MESSAGE, PLING_PLING autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57172 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C4F04C.866E68E0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0009_01C4F04C.866E68E0" ------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C4F04C.866E68E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankEveryone has a new years wish. BUT ! , lets look back at 2004. Hah The US govt admits to spending 500 bil more than it took in. The trade deficit for 2004 reached 500 bil. Unfunded mandates by all public entities US, state and lacal including = SS, pensions etc approached 64 trillion. What is Bush's solution? Passed a medicare prescription drug bill with estimated cost of 800 bil = benefitting drug firms. Passed a tax reduction package benefitting ONLY the industrialist. Free import duties to Home Depot for ceiling fans made in China. Tax writeoff for US Companies moving facilities, plants and home offices = out of the country. Iraq war costs of 10 bil month=20 Nations interstate highways paid for with fuel taxes being prizatized to = tollway with foriegn owners. An insane air passenger checkin and strip search of 80 year old ladies = BUT cannot profile ones that represent 100% of the terrorist threat. Open Mex and Canadian borders with El Salvadorian gangs moving Al Queada = in the USA. A homeland defense bill that protects politicians and overrides = constitutional protection of citizens.. yet failed to include a safe = borders provision,, with a promise to address the issue in January 2005 = ( in a pigs eye!) A banking system and insurance industry moving cash overseas and = replacing the cash with " paper" offsets approved by the Fed. Have I left anything out ? Yea! How do we find a Nixon that can get us out of Iraq like Vietnam. = Too late ? Meanwhile back at the ranch in Texas I muse over how things used to = be.. Bad men shooting and killing, robbing banks and stealing horses. It got = so bad Texas formed a Ranger band. The rangers would send a stalking = horse into the badmans lair while the ranger went in the back door and = shot the bad guy in the back with a shotgun. So much for Hollywood = heroics. It darn sure worked for us for all those years. Funny that the = bad guys never stole any women.. too tuff I guess . When the US attorney for New York is worried about the insurance = industry and banks moving money overseas. I think its time to look for = a solution better than writing your congressman. Thank goodness 2004 is over ! Here comes 2005 , bring it on , I can't = wait. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C4F04C.866E68E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Everyone has a new years wish. BUT ! , lets = look back at=20 2004. Hah
 
The US govt admits to spending 500 bil more = than it took=20 in.
The trade deficit for 2004 reached 500 = bil.
 
Unfunded mandates by all public entities US, = state and=20 lacal including SS, pensions etc approached
 64 trillion.
 
What is Bush's solution?
Passed a medicare prescription drug = bill with=20 estimated cost of 800 bil benefitting drug firms.
Passed a tax reduction package benefitting = ONLY the=20 industrialist.
 Free import duties to Home Depot for = ceiling fans=20 made in China.
Tax writeoff for US Companies moving = facilities, plants=20 and home offices out of the country.
Iraq war costs of 10 bil month
Nations interstate highways paid for with fuel = taxes=20 being prizatized to tollway with  foriegn owners.
An insane air passenger checkin and strip = search of 80=20 year old ladies BUT cannot profile ones that represent 100% of the = terrorist=20 threat.
Open Mex and Canadian borders with El = Salvadorian gangs=20 moving Al Queada in the USA.
A homeland defense bill that protects = politicians and=20 overrides constitutional protection of citizens.. yet failed to include = a safe=20 borders provision,, with a promise to address the issue in January 2005 = ( in a=20 pigs eye!)
A banking system and insurance industry moving = cash=20 overseas and replacing the cash with " paper" offsets approved by the=20 Fed.
Have I left anything out ?
Yea! How do we find a Nixon that can get us = out of Iraq=20 like Vietnam. Too late ?
 
Meanwhile back at the  ranch in Texas I = muse over=20 how things used to be..
 
Bad men shooting and killing, robbing banks = and stealing=20 horses. It got so bad Texas formed a Ranger band. The rangers would send = a=20 stalking horse into the badmans lair while the ranger went in the back = door and=20 shot the bad guy in the back with a shotgun. So much for Hollywood = heroics. It=20 darn sure worked for us for all those years. Funny that the bad guys = never stole=20 any women.. too tuff I guess .


When the US attorney for New York is worried about the = insurance=20 industry and banks moving money overseas. I think its time to look  = for a solution better than writing your congressman.
 
Thank goodness 2004 is over !  Here comes 2005 , bring it on , = I can't=20 wait.
Richard
 

 

------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C4F04C.866E68E0-- ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C4F04C.866E68E0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000701c4f07e$d0ffb120$0100007f xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C4F04C.866E68E0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 2 02:03:45 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j02A3dqI005909; Sun, 2 Jan 2005 02:03:40 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j02A3YZ2005880; Sun, 2 Jan 2005 02:03:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 02:03:34 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 04:03:21 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Ed Dames interview Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57173 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Major Ed Dames was a guest on C to C AM this morning. According to Ed, a Chi Gong master can remove an object from inside a glass bell jar without disturbing the glass. They do this by manipulating the inertia of the glass. Quite a trick if you could do it, eh? I would think that there is potential for creating a Maxwell's Demon here. I guess I'll have to get a book on the subject. Those of you who have heard my theories on eschatology will recall my belief that we are in a world war, Ed agrees. He also raised the specter of the Russian Mafia cooperating with the Islamic militants to bribe the missile corps, which would get messy in a hurry. Ed and I also agree that the Sun is going out, www.thekillshot.com . Ed is remove viewing the BTK killer, I'll pray for his success in that effort. He remote viewed Satan and reported that he is a beautiful entity in a dark place. He was overwhelmed by a desire to get out of it's presence without attracting his attention. He reported that he has only had that reaction one other time, and that was while viewing a group of Budist monks, who were quite "spiritually advanced." From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 2 11:48:47 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j02JmeJQ025102; Sun, 2 Jan 2005 11:48:41 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j02JmIOT024914; Sun, 2 Jan 2005 11:48:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 11:48:18 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=BAF5Y46HMREGC8pjh5p4WsN0Pbam5hAtXAMm3YLHKMefH11HT8/1N0n3BBGmUm3pU8w7fec9FOHrDWzhh9KYbafLXgbzLb7TTAi6vDXvlDcwrhIUMCvlhDA1eesL0eZazi0PqV/wjExTYZ1/L0GqCdLQI/BN8NLKR+nr7R0Q4WU= ; Message-ID: <20050102194800.12602.qmail web60310.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 11:48:00 -0800 (PST) From: Nick Reiter Subject: plasma electrolysis To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57174 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Here is a query going out to the LENR gurus. I am finally finishing up an extended paper / photo-journal of my experiments with cathode plasma electrolysis, since October. I find that despite my perusal of lenr-canr archives, I am still a little unsure of one matter related to prior art and work... It looks like the two most prominant groups doing investigations into plasma electrolysis - Mizuno and colleagues, and Cirillo and Iorio - have been staying with light water solutions. (At least for the plasma work) Have I missed any valuable papers or references where cathodic plasma in heavy water solutions is described? Thank you all in advance. Nick Reiter __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 2 23:40:49 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j037ekLV008607; Sun, 2 Jan 2005 23:40:46 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j037eYdG008526; Sun, 2 Jan 2005 23:40:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 23:40:34 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=KOU1Q3Do+4Cq1oqh4TBMr/CgpHMp+nxAFmuA+W/5nngZF3K0eg3IkzpofE3KLzP/; Message-ID: <410-2200511364029180 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Torus-Solenoid Antigravity Hoop Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 00:40:29 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940771fce9d48706f4f6499443620394e5f350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.62 Resent-Message-ID: <-uvtNC.A.KFC.ybP2BB ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57175 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII A long solenoid concentrates the magnetic field (B) in it's center, thus will concentrate free electrons in it's center: http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/magnetic/solenoid.html#c1 B = uo*n*I Tesla Thus, a "Betatron-Type" hollow vacuum "Solenoid Hoop" with injected free electrons circulating around the minor axis at 3.0 million meters per second might show an antigravity force of about 85 pounds. Or Much Less. :-) In order to get the electron "string" to circulated at 3.0e6 meters/second a potential (V) of 26 volts created by a changing B field: V = dB/dt 0r 26 = dB/dt 1,000 turns at 1.0 ampere around a hoop with a circumference of 1.0 meters gives a B field of 1.25 millitesla or 12.5 gauss. Pulsing the field,above a fixed DC bias current that keeps the e-beam centered against the gravity force, with a repitition rate of a few kHz should maintain the 3.0e6 meter/sec electron circulation velocity. IMHO , this Is Not the same as an electrical conductor where charge is moving at c, but the electrons are moving with a drift velocity of centimeters/second, or is it? :-) Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

A long solenoid concentrates the magnetic field (B) in it's center, thus
will concentrate free electrons in it's center:
 
 
B = uo*n*I   Tesla 
 
Thus, a "Betatron-Type" hollow vacuum "Solenoid Hoop" with injected free electrons
circulating around the minor axis at 3.0 million meters per second might show an
antigravity force of about 85 pounds. Or Much Less.   :-)
 
In order to get the electron "string" to circulated at 3.0e6 meters/second a potential (V) of
26 volts created by a changing B field:
 
V = dB/dt   0r  26 = dB/dt
 
1,000 turns at 1.0 ampere around a hoop with a circumference of 1.0 meters gives a B field of 1.25
millitesla or 12.5 gauss. Pulsing the field,above a fixed DC bias current that keeps the e-beam centered
against the gravity force,  with a repitition  rate of a few kHz should maintain the
3.0e6 meter/sec electron circulation velocity.
 
IMHO , this Is Not the same as an electrical conductor where charge is moving at c, but
the electrons are moving with a drift velocity of centimeters/second, or is it?  :-)
 
Frederick
 
 
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 3 00:36:12 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j038ZuJQ001628; Mon, 3 Jan 2005 00:35:57 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j038Zrjx001604; Mon, 3 Jan 2005 00:35:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 00:35:53 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=thvh0imhxJRflv4x1+yLTWdhYYw1nlaZssidQO8tPDGPgZCEeHqBAI+LunqmT8wv; Message-ID: <410-2200511373544930 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Torus-Solenoid Antigravity Hoop Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 01:35:44 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940c17b6a96858537251d52a805b08feb0c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.111 Resent-Message-ID: <3VPcC.A.AZ.oPQ2BB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57176 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII If it doesn't work as a personal Buck Rogers "Antigravity-Belt" it can work as a hot fusion stellarator (with or without a twist): http://www.itsf.org/brochure/peronal-trnsport.html "The faster-than-light (FTL) starship had arrived before the end of the 1920s, as had the ultimate in personal transport, the antigravity-belt featured in the Buck Rogers stories by Philip Francis Nowlan." http://www.euronuclear.org/info/encyclopedia/s/stellarator.htm "In a stellarator, the screw-like twisting of field lines around the torus centre is generated by external coils. In contrast to the Tokamak, a stellarator does not need a direct-axis flow component in the plasma. The stellarator can therefore function stationarily in principle. In a stellarator, the magnetic field cage is formed by a single coil system." Will Tokamak Fly? Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
If it doesn't work as a personal Buck Rogers "Antigravity-Belt" it can work
as a hot fusion stellarator (with or without a twist):
 
 
"The faster-than-light (FTL) starship had arrived before the end of the 1920s, as had the ultimate in personal transport, the antigravity-belt featured in the Buck Rogers stories by Philip Francis Nowlan."
 
 
"In a stellarator, the screw-like twisting of field lines around the torus centre is generated by external coils. In contrast to the Tokamak, a stellarator does not need a direct-axis flow component in the plasma. The stellarator can therefore function stationarily in principle. In a stellarator, the magnetic field cage is formed by a single coil system."
 
Will Tokamak Fly? 
 
Frederick
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 3 00:55:33 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j038tSLV023560; Mon, 3 Jan 2005 00:55:28 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j038tQ9L023539; Mon, 3 Jan 2005 00:55:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 00:55:26 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=hEbps/uoR9bTRpBEUOwtGFn+QtthMDnSF3ijmasAFvlvP3T3yiKij3/JGlKLzKHi; Message-ID: <410-2200511375521650 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: On The Light Side Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 01:55:21 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940440bd737ddad1e117fe38f586c07c080350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.227 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57177 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII This was on the web years ago. Frederick http://paul.merton.ox.ac.uk/science/darksucker.html The Dark Sucker Theory For years, it has been believed that electric bulbs emit light, but recent information has proved otherwise. Electric bulbs don't emit light; they suck dark. Thus, we call these bulbs Dark Suckers. The Dark Sucker Theory and the existence of dark suckers prove that dark has mass and is heavier than light. First, the basis of the Dark Sucker Theory is that electric bulbs suck dark. For example, take the Dark Sucker in the room you are in. There is much less dark right next to it than there is elsewhere. The larger the Dark Sucker, the greater its capacity to suck dark. Dark Suckers in the parking lot have a much greater capacity to suck dark than the ones in this room. So with all things, Dark Suckers don't last forever. Once they are full of dark, they can no longer suck. This is proven by the dark spot on a full Dark Sucker. A candle is a primitive Dark Sucker. A new candle has a white wick. You can see that after the first use, the wick turns black, representing all the dark that has been sucked into it. If you put a pencil next to the wick of an operating candle, it will turn black. This is because it got in the way of the dark flowing into the candle. One of the disadvantages of these primitive Dark Suckers is their limited range. There are also portable Dark Suckers. In these, the bulbs can't handle all the dark by themselves and must be aided by a Dark Storage Unit. When the Dark Storage Unit is full, it must be either emptied or replaced before the portable Dark Sucker can operate again. Dark has mass. When dark goes into a Dark Sucker, friction from the mass generates heat. Thus, it is not wise to touch an operating Dark Sucker. Candles present a special problem as the mass must travel into a solid wick instead of through clear glass. This generates a great amount of heat and therefore it's not wise to touch an operating candle. Also, dark is heavier than light. If you were to swim just below the surface of the lake, you would see a lot of light. If you were to slowly swim deeper and deeper, you would notice it getting darker and darker. When you get really deep, you would be in total darkness. This is because the heavier dark sinks to the bottom of the lake and the lighter light floats at the top. The is why it is called light. Finally, we must prove that dark is faster than light. If you were to stand in a lit room in front of a closed, dark closet, and slowly opened the closet door, you would see the light slowly enter the closet. But since dark is so fast, you would not be able to see the dark leave the closet. Next time you see an electric bulb, remember that it is a Dark Sucker. Based on an unoriginal earwig sent bt H J Robinson, June 1996. ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

This was on the web years ago.
 
Frederick

http://paul.merton.ox.ac.uk/science/darksucker.html

The Dark Sucker Theory

For years, it has been believed that electric bulbs emit light, but recent information has proved otherwise. Electric bulbs don't emit light; they suck dark. Thus, we call these bulbs Dark Suckers. The Dark Sucker Theory and the existence of dark suckers prove that dark has mass and is heavier than light.

First, the basis of the Dark Sucker Theory is that electric bulbs suck dark. For example, take the Dark Sucker in the room you are in. There is much less dark right next to it than there is elsewhere. The larger the Dark Sucker, the greater its capacity to suck dark. Dark Suckers in the parking lot have a much greater capacity to suck dark than the ones in this room.

So with all things, Dark Suckers don't last forever. Once they are full of dark, they can no longer suck. This is proven by the dark spot on a full Dark Sucker.

A candle is a primitive Dark Sucker. A new candle has a white wick. You can see that after the first use, the wick turns black, representing all the dark that has been sucked into it. If you put a pencil next to the wick of an operating candle, it will turn black. This is because it got in the way of the dark flowing into the candle. One of the disadvantages of these primitive Dark Suckers is their limited range.

There are also portable Dark Suckers. In these, the bulbs can't handle all the dark by themselves and must be aided by a Dark Storage Unit. When the Dark Storage Unit is full, it must be either emptied or replaced before the portable Dark Sucker can operate again.

Dark has mass. When dark goes into a Dark Sucker, friction from the mass generates heat. Thus, it is not wise to touch an operating Dark Sucker. Candles present a special problem as the mass must travel into a solid wick instead of through clear glass. This generates a great amount of heat and therefore it's not wise to touch an operating candle.

Also, dark is heavier than light. If you were to swim just below the surface of the lake, you would see a lot of light. If you were to slowly swim deeper and deeper, you would notice it getting darker and darker. When you get really deep, you would be in total darkness. This is because the heavier dark sinks to the bottom of the lake and the lighter light floats at the top. The is why it is called light.

Finally, we must prove that dark is faster than light. If you were to stand in a lit room in front of a closed, dark closet, and slowly opened the closet door, you would see the light slowly enter the closet. But since dark is so fast, you would not be able to see the dark leave the closet.

Next time you see an electric bulb, remember that it is a Dark Sucker.

Based on an unoriginal earwig sent bt H J Robinson, June 1996.

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 3 13:17:22 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j03LHFNO031618; Mon, 3 Jan 2005 13:17:15 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j03LHDlY031606; Mon, 3 Jan 2005 13:17:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 13:17:13 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 15:17:23 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: come to Minnesota Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1161; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57178 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Fellow Vortexians; Rumor has it that the University of Minnesota is looking for a cold fusion researcher. Dr. Orimi (sp), emeritus mechanical engineering has published several papers which are archived on the LENR site. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 3 13:49:32 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j03LnKNO006929; Mon, 3 Jan 2005 13:49:21 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j03LnJhN006912; Mon, 3 Jan 2005 13:49:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 13:49:19 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050103164817.02e36340 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2005 16:48:51 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: come to Minnesota In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_7625078==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57179 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --=====================_7625078==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed thomas malloy wrote: >Rumor has it that the University of Minnesota is looking for a cold fusion >researcher. Dr. Orimi (sp), emeritus mechanical engineering has published >several papers which are archived on the LENR site. That's Richard Oriani. - Jed --=====================_7625078==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" thomas malloy wrote:

Rumor has it that the University of Minnesota is looking for a cold fusion researcher. Dr. Orimi (sp), emeritus mechanical engineering has published several papers which are archived on the LENR site.

That's Richard Oriani.

- Jed
--=====================_7625078==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 3 16:21:18 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j040LCNO010680; Mon, 3 Jan 2005 16:21:12 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j040LBqe010664; Mon, 3 Jan 2005 16:21:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 16:21:11 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 16:21:09 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Comments from billb amform (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57180 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Can someone give Mr. Wang some pointers? ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 11:20:55 -0800 From: Jin T. Wang To: billb eskimo.com Subject: Comments from billb amform --- comments --- I am a professor in physics at Southern University, USA. I am very interested in Cold Fusion. Recently I wrote a paper about cold fusion theory. I theoretically prove that cold fusion is possible and also discussed the difficulties. Please give me some advise how to publish my paper online. Thank very much. J.T. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 3 19:27:16 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j043R2rI021761; Mon, 3 Jan 2005 19:27:13 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j043R10U021755; Mon, 3 Jan 2005 19:27:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 19:27:01 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <410-2200512432645230 ix.netcom.com> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: aki ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.1.47.0 (Windows) From: "Akira Kawasaki" To: "vortex-l" Subject: FW: WHAT'S NEW Monday, January 03, 2005 Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 19:26:45 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: c4cc7f5f697e8746f66dc3a06d5924d8357d9ac61375d1a590969e006226e153387f7b89c61deb1d350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.131.156.30 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57181 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A > From: What's New > To: Akira Kawasaki Date: 1/3/2005 9:55:25 AM Subject: WHAT'S NEW Monday, January 03, 2005 WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 31 Dec 04 Washington, DC 1. DARWINIAN EVOLUTION: "MONKEY TRIAL" RECONVENES IN DOVER, PA. It's been 145 years since Darwin published Origin of Species, perhaps the world's greatest scientific discovery. No other idea has connected so many pieces of knowledge. It's now 80 years since the Scopes trial. If any doubts about evolution remain, you might suppose that DNA analysis would sweep them away. We can now measure how closely we are related to every creature on Earth. We share half our DNA with yeast. So genetically similar are bonobos to humans that, but for the inability of bonobos to talk, they might demand a seat in the UN. Yet, in Dover, PA, a town much like Dayton, TN, the school board voted to require that intelligent design be taught alongside evolution. The school board will lose in court, but we must ask ourselves why science has been so spectacularly unsuccessful in explaining such obvious truths to people. 2. THE EXPLORERS: SCIENCE MAGAZINE "BREAKTHROUGH OF THE YEAR." A hundred-million miles or so from Dover, PA, two geologists are picking their way over the Martian surface. They've found what they were looking for: unmistakable evidence that in the distant past there were bodies of salty water on Mars that may have been nurseries of life. Science picked the exploration of Mars as the Breakthrough of the Year. It is now a year since Spirit bounced onto Mars, soon to be followed by Opportunity. Eating only sunlight, they survived the Martian winter, the intense radiation, and they're still going. The search for life to which we are not related is the most exciting quest in science. Spirit and Opportunity are wonderful instruments, but it's the scientists back on Earth who control the robots, having become virtual astronauts, who are the explorers. The real distance from Dover, PA can't be measured in miles. 3. DIET HARD: NASA ON THE ISS CREW, "LET THEM EAT CAKE." While scientists are exploring Mars, the big news from the ISS was that a robotic Russian cargo craft had safely docked with food and water. It was a month late. To make matters worse, the previous crew had raided the pantry, forcing the crew of two to eat mostly desserts and candy, sort of like Christmas on Earth. What a sad waste. Is there any use to be made the giant space turkey? Perhaps they could make an ISS sitcom. THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND. Opinions are the author's and not necessarily shared by the University of Maryland, but they should be. --- Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.aps.org/WN To subscribe, send a blank e-mail to: From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 3 19:49:50 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j043naBm008194; Mon, 3 Jan 2005 19:49:36 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j043nXUT008185; Mon, 3 Jan 2005 19:49:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 19:49:33 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Comments from billb amform (fwd) Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2005 14:49:20 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <8h4kt05o6kugsfli5gn7buqklsd4vrnr6n 4ax.com> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j043nQBm008138 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57182 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In reply to William Beaty's message of Mon, 03 Jan 2005 16:21:09 -0800: Hi, [snip] Send it to Jed? :) > >Can someone give Mr. Wang some pointers? > > > >---------- Forwarded message ---------- >Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 11:20:55 -0800 >From: Jin T. Wang >To: billb eskimo.com >Subject: Comments from billb amform > > >--- comments --- > >I am a professor in physics at Southern University, USA. I am very >interested in Cold Fusion. Recently I wrote a paper about cold fusion >theory. I theoretically prove that cold fusion is possible and also >discussed the difficulties. Please give me some advise how to publish my >paper online. Thank very much. J.T. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 3 20:36:50 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j044aeBm021092; Mon, 3 Jan 2005 20:36:40 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j044actU021077; Mon, 3 Jan 2005 20:36:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 20:36:38 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <004601c4f202$e5bd6eb0$72037841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Salty water from Mars? Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 20:12:12 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0042_01C4F1D0.83305190" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.8 required=4.0 tests=HTML_30_40,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57183 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0042_01C4F1D0.83305190 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0043_01C4F1D0.83305190" ------=_NextPart_001_0043_01C4F1D0.83305190 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankIn Bob Parks newsletter " whats new" ,he reported the Mars = explorers encountered dry ocean beds that once contained " salt water". Perhaps that can explain my long sought answer to " why" earth's oceans = are so salty. There is not enough salt on earth to cause the level of = salt content that exists in the earth' oceans. Hmm.. again.. did earth = close encounter with Mars in the distant past " strip " off water = causing what the ancient's dsecribed as the " great flood" ? Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0043_01C4F1D0.83305190 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
In Bob Parks newsletter " whats new" ,he = reported the=20 Mars explorers encountered dry ocean beds that once contained " salt=20 water".
 
Perhaps that can explain my long sought answer = to " why"=20 earth's oceans are so salty. There is not enough salt on earth to cause = the=20 level of salt content that exists in the earth' oceans. Hmm.. again.. = did earth=20 close encounter with Mars in the distant past " strip " off water = causing what=20 the ancient's dsecribed as the " great flood" ?
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_0043_01C4F1D0.83305190-- ------=_NextPart_000_0042_01C4F1D0.83305190 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <004101c4f202$cdc62db0$72037841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0042_01C4F1D0.83305190-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 4 00:36:02 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j048Zo5i032154; Tue, 4 Jan 2005 00:35:50 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j048ZlZ6032139; Tue, 4 Jan 2005 00:35:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 00:35:47 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 00:35:45 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l Subject: Re: FW: WHAT'S NEW Monday, January 03, 2005 In-Reply-To: <410-2200512432645230 ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: References: <410-2200512432645230 ix.netcom.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57184 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Mon, 3 Jan 2005, Akira Kawasaki wrote: > UN. Yet, in Dover, PA, a town much like Dayton, TN, the school > board voted to require that intelligent design be taught > alongside evolution. The school board will lose in court, but > we must ask ourselves why science has been so spectacularly > unsuccessful in explaining such obvious truths to people. LOL! That's just too good, because Park will never know. In fact he himself is a perfect example of the "dishonest skeptic" problem that can turn audiences against science. It's just too ironic that the situation is now reversed from when T. H. Huxley defeated Bishop Wilberforce in the famous Darwinism debate... by pointing out that the Bishop was criticizing a subject without first studying it, and then soiling a serious scientific discussion by bringing in RHETORICAL PLOYS. Wilberforce: "I would like to ask Professor Huxley whether it was on his grandfather's or his grandmother's side that the ape ancestry comes in." Huxley: "A man has no reason to be ashamed of having an ape for his grandfather. If there were an ancestor whom I should feel shame in recalling, it would be a man of restless and versatile intellect, who, not content with success in his own sphere of activity, plunges into scientific questions with which he has no real acquaintance, only to obscure them by an aimless rhetoric..." It says much about the current state of science that the physics community doesn't recoil in revulsion at one of their number who always fills his magazine columns with emotion-based spin tactics. If contemporary scientists found Mr. Park's behavior repugnant, scientists certainly would be in a better position to teach the general public what "critical thinking" means. (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 4 06:30:00 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j04ETt5i023888; Tue, 4 Jan 2005 06:29:55 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j04ETrj3023875; Tue, 4 Jan 2005 06:29:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 06:29:53 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <004301c4f26a$02c16360$6601a8c0 msns.flt.ptd.net> From: "revtec" To: References: <004601c4f202$e5bd6eb0$72037841 xptower> Subject: Re: Salty water from Mars? Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 09:30:56 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_003F_01C4F240.17FCF8E0"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Resent-Message-ID: <7B0OyC.A.-0F.hhq2BB ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57185 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003F_01C4F240.17FCF8E0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0040_01C4F240.17FCF8E0" ------=_NextPart_001_0040_01C4F240.17FCF8E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankThe oceans are obviously getting saltier each year as additiona = minerals are disolved by rain water and washed to the sea. It has been = calculated through measurements of river flow rates world wide with = their associated salt content how much this is. This rate is such that = the oceans of 50 million years ago would have been fresh water. As I = recall, this argument was used to debunk 6,000 yr. biblical creation, = but now it has become a serious limitation to the 10's or 100's of = additional millions of years needed by evolution theory. That 50 = million is a maximum number since leaching rates drop over time as the = mineral deposits become depleted. Also the structure of many of the = worlds river valleys show evidence of much higher rates of water flow = than we presently see. Check "The Genesis Flood" by Whitcomb and Morris for more details. Regarding the fate of Mars' water, are we approaching some vindication = of Velikovski? There remain some difficult problems in orbital = mechanics. Jeff =20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: RC Macaulay=20 To: vortex-l eskimo.com=20 Sent: Monday, January 03, 2005 9:12 PM Subject: Salty water from Mars? In Bob Parks newsletter " whats new" ,he reported the Mars explorers = encountered dry ocean beds that once contained " salt water". Perhaps that can explain my long sought answer to " why" earth's = oceans are so salty. There is not enough salt on earth to cause the = level of salt content that exists in the earth' oceans. Hmm.. again.. = did earth close encounter with Mars in the distant past " strip " off = water causing what the ancient's dsecribed as the " great flood" ? Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0040_01C4F240.17FCF8E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
The oceans are obviously getting saltier each year as additiona = minerals=20 are disolved by rain water and washed to the sea. It has been calculated = through=20 measurements of river flow rates world wide with their associated salt=20 content how much this is.  This rate is such that the = oceans of=20 50 million years ago would have been fresh water.  As I recall, = this=20 argument was used to debunk 6,000 yr. biblical creation, but now it has = become a=20 serious limitation to the 10's or 100's of additional = millions of=20 years needed by evolution theory.  That 50 million is a maximum = number=20 since leaching rates drop over time as the mineral deposits become=20 depleted.  Also the structure of many of the worlds river valleys = show=20 evidence of much higher rates of water flow than we presently see.
 
Check "The Genesis Flood" by Whitcomb and Morris for more = details.
 
Regarding the fate of Mars' water, are we approaching some = vindication of=20 Velikovski?  There remain some difficult problems in orbital=20 mechanics.
 
Jeff  
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 RC = Macaulay=20
Sent: Monday, January 03, 2005 = 9:12=20 PM
Subject: Salty water from = Mars?

In Bob Parks newsletter " whats new" ,he = reported the=20 Mars explorers encountered dry ocean beds that once contained " salt=20 water".
 
Perhaps that can explain my long sought = answer to "=20 why" earth's oceans are so salty. There is not enough salt on earth to = cause=20 the level of salt content that exists in the earth' oceans. Hmm.. = again.. did=20 earth close encounter with Mars in the distant past " strip " off = water=20 causing what the ancient's dsecribed as the " great flood" = ?
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_0040_01C4F240.17FCF8E0-- ------=_NextPart_000_003F_01C4F240.17FCF8E0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <003e01c4f26a$00c23800$6601a8c0 msns.flt.ptd.net> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_003F_01C4F240.17FCF8E0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 4 06:39:18 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j04EdC5i026649; Tue, 4 Jan 2005 06:39:12 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j04EdBGg026620; Tue, 4 Jan 2005 06:39:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 06:39:11 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <005401c4f26b$510c4e80$6601a8c0 msns.flt.ptd.net> From: "revtec" To: Subject: Re: WHAT'S NEW Monday, Jan 03 05 Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 09:40:18 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0051_01C4F241.668980E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57186 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0051_01C4F241.668980E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It seems that we have come back to Intelligent Design because the = universe, as presently described by scientists, is still too small and = too young to produce the complexity of a living cell by random = processes. If Darwin would have had access to the findings of molecular = biology and probability mathamatics that we have available today, do you = think he would have given serious thought to writing such a book as = "Origin of the Species"? Darwin himself stated, "If it could be demonstrated that any complex = organ existed which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, = successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break = down." Jeff ------=_NextPart_000_0051_01C4F241.668980E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
It seems that we have come back to Intelligent Design because the = universe,=20 as presently described by scientists, is still too small and too young = to=20 produce the complexity of a living cell by random processes.  If = Darwin=20 would have had access to the findings of molecular biology and = probability=20 mathamatics that we have available today, do you think he would = have given=20 serious thought to writing such a book as "Origin of the = Species"?
 
Darwin himself stated, "If it could be demonstrated that any = complex organ=20 existed which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, = successive,=20 slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down."
 
Jeff
------=_NextPart_000_0051_01C4F241.668980E0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 4 08:40:32 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j04GeN5i002947; Tue, 4 Jan 2005 08:40:23 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j04GeL4m002928; Tue, 4 Jan 2005 08:40:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 08:40:21 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2005 00:42:22 +0800 From: FHLew Subject: Re: Salty water from Mars? To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <001801c4f27c$5d209760$0201a8c0 fhlew> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 Content-type: text/plain; charset=windows-1250 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal X-ASG-Debug-ID: 1104856914-23043-183-1 X-Barracuda-URL: http://172.19.0.19:8000/cgi-bin/mark.cgi X-ASG-Orig-Subj: Re: Salty water from Mars? X-Virus-Scanned: by Barracuda Spam Firewall #9 at tm.net.my X-Barracuda-Spam-Score: 0.00 X-Barracuda-Spam-Status: No, SCORE=0.00 using global scores of TAG_LEVEL=1000.0 QUARANTINE_LEVEL=1000.0 KILL_LEVEL=5.5 tests= X-Barracuda-Spam-Report: Code version 2.64, rules version 2.1.771 Rule breakdown below pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- ------------------------------------------- References: <200501041530.j04FUE5i015431 ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57188 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: "Don Wiegel" wrote: < " Did you ever wonder why the oceans are filled with salt water instead of fresh? Just where did the salt come from? And is it the same salt you find on a dining room table? Most of the salt in the oceans came from land. Over millions of years, rain, rivers, and streams have washed over rocks containing the compound sodium chloride (NaCl), and carried it into the sea...." > Manufacturing minerals is a life process that has shaped the continents and our history. http://www.wholeearthmag.com/ArticleBin/274.html Biological Transmutation : EVIDENCE THAT ATOMS BEHAVE DIFFERENTLY IN BIOLOGICAL SYSTEMS THAN OUTSIDE OF THEM http://www.keelynet.com/biology/bioxmute.htm The Equation of Life suggests a sodium-potassium cold nuclear transmutation process takes place in Human Biology in the presence of oxygen and electrical excitation. http://www.papimi.gr/ehttp://www.papimi.gr/eqoflif2.htmqoflif2.htm With regards Lew ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don Wiegel" To: Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 11:30 PM Subject: RE: Salty water from Mars? > http://www.onr.navy.mil/focus/ocean/water/salinity1.htm > > Ocean Water: Salinity > > "Did you ever wonder why the oceans are filled with salt water instead of > fresh? Just where did the salt come from? And is it the same salt you find > on a dining room table? Most of the salt in the oceans came from land. Over > millions of years, rain, rivers, and streams have washed over rocks > containing the compound sodium chloride (NaCl), and carried it into the sea. > You may know sodium chloride by its common name: table salt! Some of the > salt in the oceans comes from undersea volcanoes and hydrothermal vents. > When water evaporates from the surface of the ocean, the salt is left > behind. After millions of years, the oceans have developed a noticeably > salty taste. > > The ocean waters can be divided into three layers, depending on their > densities. Less dense waters form a top layer called the surface mixed zone. > The temperature and salinity of this layer can change often because it is in > direct contact with the air. For example, water evaporation could cause an > increase in salinity, and a cold front could cause a drop in temperature." > > -DonW- > > > ________________________________ > > From: revtec [mailto:revtec PTD.NET] > Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 7:31 AM > To: vortex-l eskimo.com > Subject: Re: Salty water from Mars? > > > The oceans are obviously getting saltier each year as additiona > minerals are disolved by rain water and washed to the sea. It has been > calculated through measurements of river flow rates world wide with their > associated salt content how much this is. This rate is such that the oceans > of 50 million years ago would have been fresh water. As I recall, this > argument was used to debunk 6,000 yr. biblical creation, but now it has > become a serious limitation to the 10's or 100's of additional millions of > years needed by evolution theory. That 50 million is a maximum number since > leaching rates drop over time as the mineral deposits become depleted. Also > the structure of many of the worlds river valleys show evidence of much > higher rates of water flow than we presently see. > > Check "The Genesis Flood" by Whitcomb and Morris for more details. > > Regarding the fate of Mars' water, are we approaching some > vindication of Velikovski? There remain some difficult problems in orbital > mechanics. > > Jeff > > > -- > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.296 / Virus Database: 265.6.7 - Release Date: 12/30/2004 > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 4 08:53:42 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j04Gra5i007011; Tue, 4 Jan 2005 08:53:36 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j04GrZQu006986; Tue, 4 Jan 2005 08:53:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 08:53:35 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2005 00:55:36 +0800 From: FHLew Subject: Re: Salty water from Mars? To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <002901c4f27e$36b74cc0$0201a8c0 fhlew> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 Content-type: text/plain; charset=windows-1250 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal X-ASG-Debug-ID: 1104857709-22031-183-1 X-Barracuda-URL: http://172.19.0.19:8000/cgi-bin/mark.cgi X-ASG-Orig-Subj: Re: Salty water from Mars? X-Virus-Scanned: by Barracuda Spam Firewall #9 at tm.net.my X-Barracuda-Spam-Score: 0.00 X-Barracuda-Spam-Status: No, SCORE=0.00 using global scores of TAG_LEVEL=1000.0 QUARANTINE_LEVEL=1000.0 KILL_LEVEL=5.5 tests= X-Barracuda-Spam-Report: Code version 2.64, rules version 2.1.771 Rule breakdown below pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- ------------------------------------------- References: <200501041530.j04FUE5i015431 ultra6.eskimo.com> <001801c4f27c$5d209760$0201a8c0 fhlew> Resent-Message-ID: <-_ImiC.A.GtB.Oos2BB ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57189 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Apologies Typo Please try this URL for " The Equation of Life " http://www.papimi.gr/eqoflif.htm With regards Lew ----- Original Message ----- From: "FHLew" To: Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2005 12:42 AM Subject: Re: Salty water from Mars? > "Don Wiegel" wrote: > > < " Did you ever wonder why the oceans are filled with salt water > instead of fresh? Just where did the salt come from? And is it the same salt > you find > on a dining room table? Most of the salt in the oceans came from land. Over > millions of years, rain, rivers, and streams have washed over rocks > containing the compound sodium chloride (NaCl), and carried it into the > sea...." > > > Manufacturing minerals is a life process that has shaped the continents > and our history. > > http://www.wholeearthmag.com/ArticleBin/274.html > > Biological Transmutation : EVIDENCE THAT ATOMS BEHAVE DIFFERENTLY IN > BIOLOGICAL SYSTEMS > THAN OUTSIDE OF THEM > > http://www.keelynet.com/biology/bioxmute.htm > > The Equation of Life suggests a sodium-potassium cold nuclear > transmutation process takes place in Human Biology in the presence of oxygen > and electrical excitation. > > http://www.papimi.gr/ehttp://www.papimi.gr/eqoflif2.htmqoflif2.htm > > > With regards > Lew > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Don Wiegel" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 11:30 PM > Subject: RE: Salty water from Mars? > > > > http://www.onr.navy.mil/focus/ocean/water/salinity1.htm > > > > Ocean Water: Salinity > > > > "Did you ever wonder why the oceans are filled with salt water instead of > > fresh? Just where did the salt come from? And is it the same salt you find > > on a dining room table? Most of the salt in the oceans came from land. > Over > > millions of years, rain, rivers, and streams have washed over rocks > > containing the compound sodium chloride (NaCl), and carried it into the > sea. > > You may know sodium chloride by its common name: table salt! Some of the > > salt in the oceans comes from undersea volcanoes and hydrothermal vents. > > When water evaporates from the surface of the ocean, the salt is left > > behind. After millions of years, the oceans have developed a noticeably > > salty taste. > > > > The ocean waters can be divided into three layers, depending on their > > densities. Less dense waters form a top layer called the surface mixed > zone. > > The temperature and salinity of this layer can change often because it is > in > > direct contact with the air. For example, water evaporation could cause an > > increase in salinity, and a cold front could cause a drop in temperature." > > > > -DonW- > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > From: revtec [mailto:revtec PTD.NET] > > Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 7:31 AM > > To: vortex-l eskimo.com > > Subject: Re: Salty water from Mars? > > > > > > The oceans are obviously getting saltier each year as additiona > > minerals are disolved by rain water and washed to the sea. It has been > > calculated through measurements of river flow rates world wide with their > > associated salt content how much this is. This rate is such that the > oceans > > of 50 million years ago would have been fresh water. As I recall, this > > argument was used to debunk 6,000 yr. biblical creation, but now it has > > become a serious limitation to the 10's or 100's of additional millions of > > years needed by evolution theory. That 50 million is a maximum number > since > > leaching rates drop over time as the mineral deposits become depleted. > Also > > the structure of many of the worlds river valleys show evidence of much > > higher rates of water flow than we presently see. > > > > Check "The Genesis Flood" by Whitcomb and Morris for more details. > > > > Regarding the fate of Mars' water, are we approaching some > > vindication of Velikovski? There remain some difficult problems in > orbital > > mechanics. > > > > Jeff > > > > > > -- > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > > Version: 7.0.296 / Virus Database: 265.6.7 - Release Date: 12/30/2004 > > > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 4 10:09:48 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j04I9Sso006708; Tue, 4 Jan 2005 10:09:33 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j04I9PY9006680; Tue, 4 Jan 2005 10:09:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 10:09:25 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2005 13:08:10 -0500 Subject: Re: WHAT'S NEW Monday, Jan 03 05 From: Harry Veeder To: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <005401c4f26b$510c4e80$6601a8c0 msns.flt.ptd.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="MS_Mac_OE_3187688891_22339_MIME_Part" Resent-Message-ID: <8dJTS.A.UoB.Vvt2BB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57190 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --MS_Mac_OE_3187688891_22339_MIME_Part Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Do you have a reference for that quote? Harry revtec at revtec PTD.NET wrote: It seems that we have come back to Intelligent Design because the universe, as presently described by scientists, is still too small and too young to produce the complexity of a living cell by random processes. If Darwin would have had access to the findings of molecular biology and probability mathamatics that we have available today, do you think he would have given serious thought to writing such a book as "Origin of the Species"? Darwin himself stated, "If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down." Jeff --MS_Mac_OE_3187688891_22339_MIME_Part Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Re: WHAT'S NEW   Monday, Jan 03 05 Do you have a reference for that quote?

Harry

revtec at revtec PTD.NET wrote:

It seems that we have come ba= ck to Intelligent Design because the universe, as presently described by sci= entists, is still too small and too young to produce the complexity of a liv= ing cell by random processes.  If Darwin would have had access to the f= indings of molecular biology and probability mathamatics that we have availa= ble today, do you think he would have given serious thought to writing such = a book as "Origin of the Species"?

Darwin himself stated, "If it could be demonstrated that any complex o= rgan existed which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successi= ve, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down."

Jeff


--MS_Mac_OE_3187688891_22339_MIME_Part-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 4 10:32:31 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j04IWEso016113; Tue, 4 Jan 2005 10:32:20 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j04IWCwc016079; Tue, 4 Jan 2005 10:32:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 10:32:12 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: "John Steck" To: Subject: RE: WHAT'S NEW Monday, Jan 03 05 Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 12:31:51 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001A_01C4F259.5DDE08E0" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 In-Reply-To: <005401c4f26b$510c4e80$6601a8c0 msns.flt.ptd.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57191 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C4F259.5DDE08E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Self organization of molecular compounds is nothing new... I theorize it is nothing more than a migration to a lower energy state; order from chaos if you will, the universe trying to put itself back together after the big bang. The nano-technology crowd is banking on it as the practical means for mass production of micro-constructs. There is NOTHING random in the natural world. It is the single greatest challenge in encryption technologies. The concept of randomness and probability are human constructs born out of our quest to label things we don't fully understand. When circumstances don't match our 'map' of the known we dismiss it as circumstance so the apple cart is not disturbed. >From the science crowd, I think Wolfram is the first to try and seriously shine a bright light on this, but in the end he may be no better than Peter, Paul, Luke, and John to grab on to the entire concept and translate it in to terms we are able to load into our consciousness. No matter how well done, these dissertations will always be flawed by our own inability to translate properly/completely. We just don't have enough cerebral RAM to load the whole equation at once if you will. Theological wrangling aside, is it such an odd concept that evolution and intelligent design are lock step? Evolution the evidence of the creation process, physics (intelligent design) the means by which it has progressed? I am a staunch critic of the concept of the atheist scientist. I really don't see religion and science at odds. I derive great humor from those who draw a line in the sand from either side. It is a symbiotic relationship that is clouded by biblical literalists and test-tube obsessive compulsives. I think George Carlin said it best... maybe the planet WANTED plastic but need us to make it. 8^) -Steck -----Original Message----- From: revtec [mailto:revtec PTD.NET] Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 8:40 AM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: WHAT'S NEW Monday, Jan 03 05 It seems that we have come back to Intelligent Design because the universe, as presently described by scientists, is still too small and too young to produce the complexity of a living cell by random processes. If Darwin would have had access to the findings of molecular biology and probability mathamatics that we have available today, do you think he would have given serious thought to writing such a book as "Origin of the Species"? Darwin himself stated, "If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down." Jeff ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C4F259.5DDE08E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Self=20 organization of molecular compounds is nothing new... I theorize it is = nothing=20 more than a migration to a lower energy state; order from chaos if you = will, the=20 universe trying to put itself back together after the big bang.  = The=20 nano-technology crowd is banking on it as the practical means for mass=20 production of micro-constructs.
 
There=20 is NOTHING random in the natural world.  It is the single greatest=20 challenge in encryption technologies.  The concept of randomness = and=20 probability are human constructs born out of our quest to label = things we=20 don't fully understand.  When circumstances don't match = our 'map'=20 of the known we dismiss it as circumstance so the apple cart is not=20 disturbed.  From the science crowd, I think Wolfram is the first=20 to try and seriously shine a bright light on this, but in the end = he may be=20 no better than Peter, Paul, Luke, and John to grab on to the entire = concept and=20 translate it in to terms we are able to load into our = consciousness.  No=20 matter how well done, these dissertations will always be flawed by our = own=20 inability to translate properly/completely.  We just don't have = enough=20 cerebral RAM to load the whole equation at once if you = will.
 
Theological wrangling aside, is it such an odd concept that = evolution and=20 intelligent design are lock step?  Evolution the evidence of the = creation=20 process, physics (intelligent design) the means by which it has=20 progressed?  I am a staunch critic of the concept of the atheist=20 scientist.  I really don't see religion and science at odds.  = I derive=20 great humor from those who draw a line in the sand from either = side.  It is=20 a symbiotic relationship that is clouded by biblical literalists and = test-tube=20 obsessive compulsives.
 
I=20 think George Carlin said it best... maybe the planet WANTED plastic but = need us=20 to make it.  8^)
 
-Steck
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: revtec=20 [mailto:revtec PTD.NET]
Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 8:40=20 AM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: WHAT'S NEW = Monday,=20 Jan 03 05

It seems that we have come back to Intelligent Design because the = universe,=20 as presently described by scientists, is still too small and too young = to=20 produce the complexity of a living cell by random processes.  If = Darwin=20 would have had access to the findings of molecular biology and = probability=20 mathamatics that we have available today, do you think he would = have given=20 serious thought to writing such a book as "Origin of the = Species"?
 
Darwin himself stated, "If it could be demonstrated that any = complex organ=20 existed which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, = successive,=20 slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down."
 
Jeff
------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C4F259.5DDE08E0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 4 10:48:22 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j04Im6so022507; Tue, 4 Jan 2005 10:48:12 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j04Im5nC022490; Tue, 4 Jan 2005 10:48:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 10:48:05 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050104184641.00970148 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2005 18:46:41 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: WHAT'S NEW Monday, Jan 03 05 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57192 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 13:08 04/01/2005 -0500, you wrote: >Do you have a reference for that quote? > >Harry ============================================ If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down. - Charles Darwin - The Origin of Species, p. 179. ============================================ Cheers Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 4 10:56:35 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j04IuT5i011425; Tue, 4 Jan 2005 10:56:29 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j04IuRr9011416; Tue, 4 Jan 2005 10:56:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 10:56:27 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: "John Steck" To: Subject: RE: WHAT'S NEW Monday, Jan 03 05 Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 12:56:13 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.20050104184641.00970148 pop.freeserve.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57193 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: "It does not take a majority to prevail ... but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brushfires of freedom in the minds of men." --Samuel Adams -----Original Message----- From: Grimer [mailto:f.grimer grimer2.freeserve.co.uk] Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 12:47 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: WHAT'S NEW Monday, Jan 03 05 At 13:08 04/01/2005 -0500, you wrote: >Do you have a reference for that quote? > >Harry ============================================ If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down. - Charles Darwin - The Origin of Species, p. 179. ============================================ Cheers Grimer -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.298 / Virus Database: 265.6.7 - Release Date: 30-Dec-04 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 4 11:20:50 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j04JKWG8005652; Tue, 4 Jan 2005 11:20:37 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j04JKTOD005629; Tue, 4 Jan 2005 11:20:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 11:20:29 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050104141812.029ef828 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2005 14:19:52 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: New old NASA paper Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <8SyC_D.A.1XB.9xu2BB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57194 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In 1989, scientists at NASA's Lewis research Center in Cleveland, Ohio ran a gas-loaded cold fusion experiment. They observed excess heat but no neutrons. Jean-Paul Biberian brought this paper to my attention today. I have reformatted and uploaded it here: http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/FralickGCresultsofa.pdf - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 4 11:24:19 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j04JOCT0018639; Tue, 4 Jan 2005 11:24:13 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j04JOBOr018621; Tue, 4 Jan 2005 11:24:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 11:24:11 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2005 14:23:29 -0500 Subject: GPS and SR From: Harry Veeder To: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57195 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I have heard that the formulas of Special Relativity are used as a kind of code to process GPS signals so as to improve the accuracy of GPS devices. If this is true, then SR appears to be nothing more than a set of error correction codes for recovering a sense of absolute space and time. Harry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 4 11:41:45 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j04JfdT0027015; Tue, 4 Jan 2005 11:41:39 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j04Jfch0027002; Tue, 4 Jan 2005 11:41:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 11:41:38 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2005 14:40:59 -0500 Subject: Re: WHAT'S NEW Monday, Jan 03 05 From: Harry Veeder To: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.20050104184641.00970148 pop.freeserve.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57196 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Personally I do not feel life BEGINS by chance, although the subsequent evolution is plausibly Darwinian. Perhaps an E.T. (not necessarily God) has been 'guiding' the evolution of life on this planet. Anyway, the intelligent design theory is bigger than religion. Harry Grimer at f.grimer grimer2.freeserve.co.uk wrote: > At 13:08 04/01/2005 -0500, you wrote: >> Do you have a reference for that quote? >> >> Harry > > > ============================================ > If it could be demonstrated that any complex > organ existed which could not possibly have > been formed by numerous, successive, slight > modifications, my theory would absolutely > break down. > > - Charles Darwin - > > The Origin of Species, p. 179. > ============================================ > > Cheers > > Grimer > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 4 11:51:37 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j04JpVT0000935; Tue, 4 Jan 2005 11:51:31 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j04JpUQw000912; Tue, 4 Jan 2005 11:51:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 11:51:30 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050104144931.02a3ef38 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2005 14:51:06 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: New old NASA paper In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050104141812.029ef828 pop.mindspring.com> References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050104141812.029ef828 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_18537265==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57197 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_18537265==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I'll bet if these folks had run an autoradiograph they would have seen some interesting results. This experiment resembles ones performed by Srinivasan et al. with hydrogen filters around 1989. - Jed --=====================_18537265==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" I'll bet if these folks had run an autoradiograph they would have seen some interesting results. This experiment resembles ones performed by Srinivasan et al. with hydrogen filters around 1989.

- Jed
 --=====================_18537265==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 4 12:38:31 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j04KcPG8007913; Tue, 4 Jan 2005 12:38:25 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j04KcD2o007803; Tue, 4 Jan 2005 12:38:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 12:38:13 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050104203654.00987738 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2005 20:36:54 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: RE: WHAT'S NEW Monday, Jan 03 05 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57198 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 12:31 04/01/2005 -0600, you wrote: >Self organization of molecular compounds is nothing new... I theorize it is >nothing more than a migration to a lower energy state; order from chaos if >you will, the universe trying to put itself back together after the big >bang. The nano-technology crowd is banking on it as the practical means for >mass production of micro-constructs. > >There is NOTHING random in the natural world. It is the single greatest >challenge in encryption technologies. The concept of randomness and >probability are human constructs born out of our quest to label things we >don't fully understand. When circumstances don't match our 'map' of the >known we dismiss it as circumstance so the apple cart is not disturbed. >From the science crowd, I think Wolfram is the first to try and seriously >shine a bright light on this, but in the end he may be no better than Peter, >Paul, Luke, and John to grab on to the entire concept and translate it in to >terms we are able to load into our consciousness. No matter how well done, >these dissertations will always be flawed by our own inability to translate >properly/completely. We just don't have enough cerebral RAM to load the >whole equation at once if you will. > >Theological wrangling aside, is it such an odd concept that evolution and >intelligent design are lock step? Evolution the evidence of the creation >process, physics (intelligent design) the means by which it has progressed? >I am a staunch critic of the concept of the atheist scientist. I really >don't see religion and science at odds. I derive great humor from those who >draw a line in the sand from either side. It is a symbiotic relationship >that is clouded by biblical literalists and test-tube obsessive compulsives. > >I think George Carlin said it best... maybe the planet WANTED plastic but >need us to make it. 8^) > >-Steck Well said Steck. 8-) ================================ Quis enim cognovit sensum Domini aut quis consiliarius eius fuit. ================================ Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 4 07:30:27 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j04FUI5i015541; Tue, 4 Jan 2005 07:30:23 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j04FUGGg015485; Tue, 4 Jan 2005 07:30:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 07:30:16 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <200501041530.j04FUE5i015431 ultra6.eskimo.com> Reply-To: From: "Don Wiegel" To: Subject: RE: Salty water from Mars? Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 08:30:17 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Thread-Index: AcTyafR0uEnZhaVRRoeWVDL2jHDqKQAB/0bg In-Reply-To: <004301c4f26a$02c16360$6601a8c0 msns.flt.ptd.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57187 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com X-Suspected-Spam: billb friends Status: RO X-Status: http://www.onr.navy.mil/focus/ocean/water/salinity1.htm Ocean Water: Salinity "Did you ever wonder why the oceans are filled with salt water instead of fresh? Just where did the salt come from? And is it the same salt you find on a dining room table? Most of the salt in the oceans came from land. Over millions of years, rain, rivers, and streams have washed over rocks containing the compound sodium chloride (NaCl), and carried it into the sea. You may know sodium chloride by its common name: table salt! Some of the salt in the oceans comes from undersea volcanoes and hydrothermal vents. When water evaporates from the surface of the ocean, the salt is left behind. After millions of years, the oceans have developed a noticeably salty taste. The ocean waters can be divided into three layers, depending on their densities. Less dense waters form a top layer called the surface mixed zone. The temperature and salinity of this layer can change often because it is in direct contact with the air. For example, water evaporation could cause an increase in salinity, and a cold front could cause a drop in temperature." -DonW- ________________________________ From: revtec [mailto:revtec PTD.NET] Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 7:31 AM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Salty water from Mars? The oceans are obviously getting saltier each year as additiona minerals are disolved by rain water and washed to the sea. It has been calculated through measurements of river flow rates world wide with their associated salt content how much this is. This rate is such that the oceans of 50 million years ago would have been fresh water. As I recall, this argument was used to debunk 6,000 yr. biblical creation, but now it has become a serious limitation to the 10's or 100's of additional millions of years needed by evolution theory. That 50 million is a maximum number since leaching rates drop over time as the mineral deposits become depleted. Also the structure of many of the worlds river valleys show evidence of much higher rates of water flow than we presently see. Check "The Genesis Flood" by Whitcomb and Morris for more details. Regarding the fate of Mars' water, are we approaching some vindication of Velikovski? There remain some difficult problems in orbital mechanics. Jeff -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.296 / Virus Database: 265.6.7 - Release Date: 12/30/2004 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 4 12:49:07 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j04KmvT0022841; Tue, 4 Jan 2005 12:49:01 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j04KmunS022825; Tue, 4 Jan 2005 12:48:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 12:48:56 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050104152832.02aa36b0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2005 15:48:34 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: OFF TOPIC Annoying recursive hypothesis! In-Reply-To: References: <2.2.32.20050104184641.00970148 pop.freeserve.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_21983046==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57199 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --=====================_21983046==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Harry Veeder wrote: >Personally I do not feel life BEGINS by chance, although the >subsequent evolution is plausibly Darwinian. >Perhaps an E.T. (not necessarily God) has been >'guiding' the evolution of life on this planet. I find this hypothesis intensely annoying! It does not solve the problem; it merely removes it from our planet to some other planet. If ET #1 guided our evolution, do we assume that some other ET (#2) was there to guide ET #1, and did #3 guide #2? It is an infinite recursion. At some point, an intelligent species must have arisen from purely natural causes without intervention by any other species. Since it had to happen at least once, why shouldn't we assume it happened again on earth? The hypothesis is also annoying because it is not falsifiable. Regarding the Darwin quote: Yes he said that, but it has not been demonstrated that any organ exists which could not have been formed by numerous successive, slight modifications. Indeed, every organ I know of still has numerous existing successive slight modifications remaining in primitive species, including eyes, an example Darwin cited. Primitive eyes that can only sense the direction of light are way better than no eyes at all. Plus, anyone who thinks evolution is slow (or it does not exist) should learn about the growing crisis in antibiotic resistant diseases. This illustrates why ignorance is dangerous. We are frittering away the most potent drugs ever invented, mainly using them to keep the cost of meat low in the US. If this continues for a few more generations we will be back to the world as it was before 1940, when ordinary diseases often killed people of all ages. We have already thrown way the opportunity to eliminate tuberculosis, one of the most virulent diseases. - Jed --=====================_21983046==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Harry Veeder wrote:

Personally I do not feel life BEGINS by chance, although the
subsequent evolution is plausibly Darwinian.
Perhaps an E.T. (not necessarily God) has been
'guiding' the evolution of life on this planet.

I find this hypothesis intensely annoying! It does not solve the problem; it merely removes it from our planet to some other planet. If ET #1 guided our evolution, do we assume that some other ET (#2) was there to guide ET #1, and did #3 guide #2? It is an infinite recursion. At some point, an intelligent species must have arisen from purely natural causes without intervention by any other species. Since it had to happen at least once, why shouldn't we assume it happened again on earth?

The hypothesis is also annoying because it is not falsifiable.

Regarding the Darwin quote: Yes he said that, but it has not been demonstrated that any organ exists which could not have been formed by numerous successive, slight modifications. Indeed, every organ I know of still has numerous existing successive slight modifications remaining in primitive species, including eyes, an example Darwin cited. Primitive eyes that can only sense the direction of light are way better than no eyes at all.

Plus, anyone who thinks evolution is slow (or it does not exist) should learn about the growing crisis in antibiotic resistant diseases. This illustrates why ignorance is dangerous. We are frittering away the most potent drugs ever invented, mainly using them to keep the cost of meat low in the US. If this continues for a few more generations we will be back to the world as it was before 1940, when ordinary diseases often killed people of all ages. We have already thrown way the opportunity to eliminate tuberculosis, one of the most virulent diseases.

- Jed
--=====================_21983046==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 4 13:43:36 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j04LhOG8032060; Tue, 4 Jan 2005 13:43:24 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j04LhKka032020; Tue, 4 Jan 2005 13:43:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 13:43:20 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: Message-ID: <008301c4f2a6$600045a0$d657ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <004601c4f202$e5bd6eb0$72037841 xptower> Subject: Re: Salty water from Mars? Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 16:37:00 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_007E_01C4F27B.9CE8D3E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: <06DI6.A.Q0H.33w2BB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57200 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_007E_01C4F27B.9CE8D3E0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_007F_01C4F27B.9CE8D3E0" ------=_NextPart_001_007F_01C4F27B.9CE8D3E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank ----- Original Message -----=20 From: RC Macaulay=20 To: vortex-l eskimo.com=20 Sent: Monday, January 03, 2005 9:12 PM Subject: Salty water from Mars? In Bob Parks newsletter " whats new" ,he reported the Mars explorers = encountered dry ocean beds that once contained " salt water". Perhaps that can explain my long sought answer to " why" earth's = oceans are so salty. There is not enough salt on earth to cause the = level of salt content that exists in the earth' oceans. Hmm.. again.. = did earth close encounter with Mars in the distant past " strip " off = water causing what the ancient's dsecribed as the " great flood" ? Look up the works of Immanuel Velikovsky, especially his "Worlds in = Collision" Mike Carrell ------=_NextPart_001_007F_01C4F27B.9CE8D3E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 RC = Macaulay=20
Sent: Monday, January 03, 2005 = 9:12=20 PM
Subject: Salty water from = Mars?

In Bob Parks newsletter " whats new" ,he = reported the=20 Mars explorers encountered dry ocean beds that once contained " salt=20 water".
 
Perhaps that can explain my long sought = answer to "=20 why" earth's oceans are so salty. There is not enough salt on earth to = cause=20 the level of salt content that exists in the earth' oceans. Hmm.. = again.. did=20 earth close encounter with Mars in the distant past " strip " off = water=20 causing what the ancient's dsecribed as the " great flood" = ?
 
Look up the works of Immanuel = Velikovsky,=20 especially his "Worlds in Collision"
 
Mike=20 Carrell
------=_NextPart_001_007F_01C4F27B.9CE8D3E0-- ------=_NextPart_000_007E_01C4F27B.9CE8D3E0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <007d01c4f2a5$85bc6ae0$d657ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_007E_01C4F27B.9CE8D3E0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 4 13:45:57 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j04LjgG8032695; Tue, 4 Jan 2005 13:45:46 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j04Lje2A032672; Tue, 4 Jan 2005 13:45:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 13:45:40 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Standing Bear To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Cheat meat......pest control.....wait! Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 16:54:30 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 References: <2.2.32.20050104184641.00970148 pop.freeserve.net> <6.2.0.14.2.20050104152832.02aa36b0@pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050104152832.02aa36b0 pop.mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200501041654.30464.rockcast earthlink.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57201 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Tuesday 04 January 2005 15:48, Jed Rothwell wrote: > Harry Veeder wrote: > >Personally I do not feel life BEGINS by chance, although the > >subsequent evolution is plausibly Darwinian. > >Perhaps an E.T. (not necessarily God) has been > >'guiding' the evolution of life on this planet. > > I find this hypothesis intensely annoying! It does not solve the problem; > it merely removes it from our planet to some other planet. If ET #1 guided > our evolution, do we assume that some other ET (#2) was there to guide ET > #1, and did #3 guide #2? It is an infinite recursion. At some point, an > intelligent species must have arisen from purely natural causes without > intervention by any other species. Since it had to happen at least once, > why shouldn't we assume it happened again on earth? > > The hypothesis is also annoying because it is not falsifiable. > > Regarding the Darwin quote: Yes he said that, but it has not been > demonstrated that any organ exists which could not have been formed by > numerous successive, slight modifications. Indeed, every organ I know of > still has numerous existing successive slight modifications remaining in > primitive species, including eyes, an example Darwin cited. Primitive eyes > that can only sense the direction of light are way better than no eyes at > all. > > Plus, anyone who thinks evolution is slow (or it does not exist) should > learn about the growing crisis in antibiotic resistant diseases. This > illustrates why ignorance is dangerous. We are frittering away the most > potent drugs ever invented, mainly using them to keep the cost of meat low > in the US. If this continues for a few more generations we will be back to > the world as it was before 1940, when ordinary diseases often killed people > of all ages. We have already thrown way the opportunity to eliminate > tuberculosis, one of the most virulent diseases. > > - Jed And we'll still end up with expensive meat. It is expensive now. Notice how the meats that one can buy in the local American food store have grown more expensive as the quality has simultaneousely declined. Beef chuck roast that used to cost twenty nine cents per pound and smelled good in the oven and tasted just as good on the table has been replaced by a product that costs over three dollars and seventy cents a pound and smells like medicine when cooking. If that was'nt bad enough, most of it is tasteless unless one puts spices and salt into it.....then it tastes like the seasonings. One reason is that grade standards have been loosened to allow low grades into the American marketplace mislabeled as 'US Good' or even 'US Choice'. This meat could never have evenly competed in the meat marketplace of the 1960's. The only way it got sold is to public schools and prisons and mental hospitals. Occasionaly it got sold to the military to crooked commissary officers who were taking bribes. This did not happen often. I sat on a Court Martial Board of a couple of these excuses for troops who would feed this stuff to there own. Another reason is that foreigners are realizing that we are one of the few places in the worl d with safe meat, and the only nation that will put foreigners ahead of its own citizens when selling our quality meats abroad to rich palates able to pay over a hundred dollars a pound. Ordinary Americans cannot pay over a hundred dollars a pound for good meat. Our farmers do not get this money either. It is the industry that grades meat, and industry that basically self inspects meat; courtesy ot Bush the elder who approved self inspection regimes in the meat industry when its deregulation was greatly accelerated in the late 1980's. Farmers sell meat to giant intermediate buyers and are paid set rates that are barely enough to keep them solvent as farmers. That is why stock farming is becoming a creature of large corporate farms. Larger farms do not have to depend on the intermediate buyer as they have money to reach other buyers. Transportation and language are barriers to the larger profits, and larger corporate farmers can participate in markets on similar footing as intermediate processors like ADM and Monfort and others. Once safely out of the hands of caring Americans and into the clutches of international traders, it can then be graded up or down and sold and resold. It can also be exported. And poor grades can be imported, and can be resold into the retail market by the same commercial combinations of great wealth and political influence that produced and evolved into the present day travesty that is called our 'free trade' market. Free trade protects only international bankers and other gangsters. When local retailers are hooked into the scam, the middle men do not even bother to disguise the foreign origin of the meat. They ship the bulk beef in the original cartons to the end merchant customer and leave it to him not to admit to his customers the real grade and origin of the beef he sells. Hence you can see cases of British beef being offloaded into the warehouses of a very major hamburger chain (which two years ago admited to using 'European' [British] beef), and Uraguayan beef loaded into the backs of your friendly local very large 'superstore' warehouses. I do not have to mention the names; they ran their competition out of business in a hail of imported Chinese slave goods years ago. This is only temporary, however. One day the impalances in relative wealth that led to the internationalization of the phrase 'A fool and his money are soon parted!' (we Americans had money and other nations did not) will become leveled. It is happening now. As we grow poorer, it will not even be worth importing slimy meat into this country. In the end, we will be left with an enormous wasteland of thousands of white elephant warehouses, rotting dock facilities, deserted and desertified agricultural land, abandoned small towns, gutted 'superstores', and a largely unemployed and shell shocked population feeling that they had fought a war and lost. THEY DID! Some time before that we may well have a population ripe and ready for governmental reform on a scale not seen since Oliver Cromwell in England. You may not want military age children in that age. Standing Bear From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 4 14:13:55 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j04MDjG8009639; Tue, 4 Jan 2005 14:13:45 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j04MDXPn009530; Tue, 4 Jan 2005 14:13:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 14:13:33 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: <5d444b2c-dbd2-4417-aeb2-423fdcf30a51> Message-ID: <00bc01c4f2aa$9a947840$d657ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: Subject: Re: WHAT'S NEW Monday, Jan 03 05 Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 17:04:05 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0098_01C4F27F.65AE32E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57202 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0098_01C4F27F.65AE32E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ----- Original Message -----=20 From: John Steck=20 To: vortex-l eskimo.com=20 Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 1:31 PM Subject: RE: WHAT'S NEW Monday, Jan 03 05 Self organization of molecular compounds is nothing new... I theorize = it is nothing more than a migration to a lower energy state; order from = chaos if you will, the universe trying to put itself back together after = the big bang. The nano-technology crowd is banking on it as the = practical means for mass production of micro-constructs. There is NOTHING random in the natural world. MC: But the world is nonlinear and recursive, which sets the stage of = deterministic chaos aboive the atomic level.=20 It is the single greatest challenge in encryption technologies. The = concept of randomness and probability are human constructs born out of = our quest to label things we don't fully understand. When circumstances = don't match our 'map' of the known we dismiss it as circumstance so the = apple cart is not disturbed. From the science crowd, I think Wolfram is = the first to try and seriously shine a bright light on this, but in the = end he may be no better than Peter, Paul, Luke, and John to grab on to = the entire concept and translate it in to terms we are able to load into = our consciousness.=20 MC: Wolfram has done a more thorough job than others in demonstrating = by power of cellular automata that Existence in all its complexity can = result from a small set of defined rules, rigorously applied. He claims = only a 'New Kind of Science', not the solution to all. Indeed, his = argument suggests that the actual set of original conditions may be = utterly beyond our decipherment. I suggest that all this can be = approached only by a superlative pattern recorgnition enitity, the = brains of animals, including us. Nervous systems are not algorithmic and = are not computers; they are something qualitatively different.=20 Mike Carrell ------=_NextPart_000_0098_01C4F27F.65AE32E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 John=20 Steck
Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 = 1:31=20 PM
Subject: RE: WHAT'S NEW Monday, = Jan 03=20 05

Self=20 organization of molecular compounds is nothing new... I theorize it is = nothing=20 more than a migration to a lower energy state; order from chaos if you = will,=20 the universe trying to put itself back together after the big = bang.  The=20 nano-technology crowd is banking on it as the practical means for mass = production of micro-constructs.
 
There is NOTHING random in the natural = world.
 
MC:=20 But the world is nonlinear and recursive, which sets the stage of=20 deterministic chaos aboive the atomic level.
 
 It is the single greatest challenge in encryption=20 technologies.  The concept of randomness and probability = are human=20 constructs born out of our quest to label things we don't fully=20 understand.  When circumstances don't match our 'map' = of the=20 known we dismiss it as circumstance so the apple cart is not = disturbed. =20 From the science crowd, I think Wolfram is the first to try and = seriously=20 shine a bright light on this, but in the end he may be no better than = Peter,=20 Paul, Luke, and John to grab on to the entire concept and translate it = in to=20 terms we are able to load into our = consciousness. 
 
MC:=20 Wolfram has done a more thorough job than others in = demonstrating by=20 power of cellular automata that Existence in all its complexity can = result=20 from a small set of defined rules, rigorously applied. He claims only = a 'New=20 Kind of Science', not the solution to all. Indeed, his argument = suggests that=20 the actual set of original conditions may be utterly beyond our = decipherment.=20 I suggest that all this can be approached only by a superlative = pattern=20 recorgnition enitity, the brains of animals, including us. Nervous = systems are=20 not algorithmic and are not computers; they are something = qualitatively=20 different.
 
Mike=20 Carrell
------=_NextPart_000_0098_01C4F27F.65AE32E0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 4 14:17:26 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j04MHCG8011072; Tue, 4 Jan 2005 14:17:13 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j04MHAJ7011045; Tue, 4 Jan 2005 14:17:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 14:17:10 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002a01c4f2ab$545b1040$6601a8c0 msns.flt.ptd.net> From: "revtec" To: References: Subject: Re: WHAT'S NEW Monday, Jan 03 05 Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 17:18:31 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0027_01C4F281.69B6B0E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57203 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0027_01C4F281.69B6B0E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ----- Original Message -----=20 From: John Steck=20 To: vortex-l eskimo.com=20 Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 1:31 PM Subject: RE: WHAT'S NEW Monday, Jan 03 05 Self organization of molecular compounds is nothing new... I theorize = it is nothing more than a migration to a lower energy state; order from = chaos if you will, the universe trying to put itself back together after = the big bang. The nano-technology crowd is banking on it as the = practical means for mass production of micro-constructs. If by self organization you are referring to crystallization as a = typical example, then I must say that example falls so far short of a = living organism that no comparison can be made. Theological wrangling aside, is it such an odd concept that evolution = and intelligent design are lock step? Evolution the evidence of the = creation process, physics (intelligent design) the means by which it has = progressed? I am a staunch critic of the concept of the atheist = scientist. I really don't see religion and science at odds. I derive = great humor from those who draw a line in the sand from either side. It = is a symbiotic relationship that is clouded by biblical literalists and = test-tube obsessive compulsives. I believe true science is never in conflict with true religion. Truth = meshes with truth. The difficulty is to determine where the errors are = and then correct them. I think it was Galileo who got in trouble with = the church for putting the sun at the center of the solar system. The = church was clearly wrong. On the other hand the Bible says clearly in = what is perhaps its oldest book, JOB, that "He hangs the earth on = nothing". It took ancient peoples and scientists a few thousand years = to grasp the truth of that. Also, Von Humbolt lifted the concept of = ocean currents from the pages of ISAIAH where it is written "...who = makes a way in the sea and a path through the mighty waters...". You = never know when a new truth will be found to be an old truth newly = rediscovered. -----Original Message----- From: revtec [mailto:revtec PTD.NET] Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 8:40 AM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: WHAT'S NEW Monday, Jan 03 05 It seems that we have come back to Intelligent Design because the = universe, as presently described by scientists, is still too small and = too young to produce the complexity of a living cell by random = processes. If Darwin would have had access to the findings of molecular = biology and probability mathamatics that we have available today, do you = think he would have given serious thought to writing such a book as = "Origin of the Species"? Darwin himself stated, "If it could be demonstrated that any complex = organ existed which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, = successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break = down." Jeff ------=_NextPart_000_0027_01C4F281.69B6B0E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 John=20 Steck
Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 = 1:31=20 PM
Subject: RE: WHAT'S NEW Monday, = Jan 03=20 05

Self=20 organization of molecular compounds is nothing new... I theorize it is = nothing=20 more than a migration to a lower energy state; order from chaos if you = will,=20 the universe trying to put itself back together after the big = bang.  The=20 nano-technology crowd is banking on it as the practical means for mass = production of micro-constructs.
 
If=20 by self organization you are referring to crystallization as a typical = example, then I must say that example falls so far short of a living = organism=20 that no comparison can be made.
 
 
Theological wrangling aside, is it such an odd concept that = evolution=20 and intelligent design are lock step?  Evolution the evidence of = the=20 creation process, physics (intelligent design) the means by which it = has=20 progressed?  I am a staunch critic of the concept of the atheist=20 scientist.  I really don't see religion and science at = odds.  I=20 derive great humor from those who draw a line in the sand from either=20 side.  It is a symbiotic relationship that is clouded by biblical = literalists and test-tube obsessive compulsives.
 
I believe true=20 science is never in conflict with true religion. Truth meshes with=20 truth.  The difficulty is to determine where the errors = are and=20 then correct them.  I think it was Galileo who got in trouble = with the=20 church for putting the sun at the center of the solar system.  = The church=20 was clearly wrong.  On the other hand the Bible says clearly in = what is=20 perhaps its oldest book, JOB, that "He hangs the earth on = nothing".  It=20 took ancient peoples and scientists a few thousand years to grasp the = truth of=20 that.  Also, Von Humbolt lifted the concept of ocean currents = from the=20 pages of ISAIAH where it is written "...who makes a way in the sea and = a path=20 through the mighty waters...".  You never know when a new truth = will be=20 found to be an old truth newly rediscovered.
 
-----Original Message-----
From: revtec=20 [mailto:revtec PTD.NET]
Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 8:40 = AM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: WHAT'S NEW = Monday,=20 Jan 03 05

It seems that we have come back to Intelligent Design because the = universe, as presently described by scientists, is still too small and = too=20 young to produce the complexity of a living cell by random = processes.  If=20 Darwin would have had access to the findings of molecular biology = and=20 probability mathamatics that we have available today, do you think he = would=20 have given serious thought to writing such a book as "Origin = of the=20 Species"?
 
Darwin himself stated, "If it could be demonstrated that any = complex=20 organ existed which could not possibly have been formed by numerous,=20 successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break=20 down."
 
Jeff
------=_NextPart_000_0027_01C4F281.69B6B0E0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 4 14:34:03 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j04MXoG8018207; Tue, 4 Jan 2005 14:33:51 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j04MXnBr018186; Tue, 4 Jan 2005 14:33:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 14:33:49 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: <0916d270-a6aa-4e87-8c37-d6a206721676> Message-ID: <00c601c4f2ad$6ed2a8a0$d657ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <2.2.32.20050104184641.00970148 pop.freeserve.net> <6.2.0.14.2.20050104152832.02aa36b0@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Intelligent Design Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 17:31:53 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: <4P7CuB.A.CcE.Nnx2BB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57204 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed wrote: Harry Veeder wrote: HV: Personally I do not feel life BEGINS by chance, although the subsequent evolution is plausibly Darwinian. Perhaps an E.T. (not necessarily God) has been 'guiding' the evolution of life on this planet. JR: Regarding the Darwin quote: Yes he said that, but it has not been demonstrated that any organ exists which could not have been formed by numerous successive, slight modifications. Indeed, every organ I know of still has numerous existing successive slight modifications remaining in primitive species, including eyes, an example Darwin cited. Primitive eyes that can only sense the direction of light are way better than no eyes at all. MC: The evolution of the eye is a classic battleground in this argument, and Gould did an effective job of showing evolutionalry steps, including one marine creature whose eyes use refelctive optics!! Truly amazing. The argument needs survival value for each incremental chnage for it to be preserved in the random mutations which naturally occur. Another striking case is the rotary flagellum in certain one-celled animals. The flagellum is corkscrew-like and truly rotates, driven by a molecular rachet motor which has been thoroughly analyzed. Some 15 very specific proteins are involved. Remove one of the 15 and it does not work. It has not been shown that any of the individual proteins have survival value indpendantly, so there should be no 'reason' for them to be made and genetically preserved. The 'probability' of random assembly is vanishingly small. There are other examples in biology. When you dig into the details of blood clotting and many other things you find extremely complex interacting bits of biological machinery. MC: Against this you cna argue the vast oceans and vast time and innumerable molecules to try all possible things, which eventually becomes as vaporous an argument as religious pontifications. Personally, I see this conflict arising out of mutual ignorance on both sides, with institutions and purses to defend. Wisdom grows from conflict. MC: As Jed points out, natural selection marches on in the evolution of bacterial immunity to antibiotics. It is also used in combinatorial chemistry, which mimics the natural selection process in guided random searching foir new chemical compounds. Computer simulations of this process have shown that it can move with astounding efficiency to solve problems. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 4 14:48:44 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j04MmaT0024152; Tue, 4 Jan 2005 14:48:37 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j04MmZUu024144; Tue, 4 Jan 2005 14:48:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 14:48:35 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001801c4f2af$81db5490$c828010a arghou.argcorp.argworldwide.com> From: "SnowDog" To: References: Subject: Re: WHAT'S NEW Monday, Jan 03 05 Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 22:48:25 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57205 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >>>There is NOTHING random in the natural world. [...] Do you believe in human volition? Craig (Houston) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 4 15:14:41 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j04NEZT0029653; Tue, 4 Jan 2005 15:14:35 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j04NEYhD029645; Tue, 4 Jan 2005 15:14:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 15:14:34 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2005 18:13:53 -0500 Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Annoying recursive hypothesis! From: Harry Veeder To: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050104152832.02aa36b0 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="MS_Mac_OE_3187707233_1125723_MIME_Part" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57206 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --MS_Mac_OE_3187707233_1125723_MIME_Part Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Creationism still dominates evolutionary theory in one important respect: the notion that life and the universe have a beginning. The universe and life may have no ultimate beginning and no ultimate end. The universe and life may be contiguous with each other. Life may evolve but it may never be extinguished. Harry Jed Rothwell at jedrothwell mindspring.com wrote: Harry Veeder wrote: Personally I do not feel life BEGINS by chance, although the subsequent evolution is plausibly Darwinian. Perhaps an E.T. (not necessarily God) has been 'guiding' the evolution of life on this planet. I find this hypothesis intensely annoying! It does not solve the problem; it merely removes it from our planet to some other planet. If ET #1 guided our evolution, do we assume that some other ET (#2) was there to guide ET #1, and did #3 guide #2? It is an infinite recursion. At some point, an intelligent species must have arisen from purely natural causes without intervention by any other species. Since it had to happen at least once, why shouldn't we assume it happened again on earth? The hypothesis is also annoying because it is not falsifiable. Regarding the Darwin quote: Yes he said that, but it has not been demonstrated that any organ exists which could not have been formed by numerous successive, slight modifications. Indeed, every organ I know of still has numerous existing successive slight modifications remaining in primitive species, including eyes, an example Darwin cited. Primitive eyes that can only sense the direction of light are way better than no eyes at all. Plus, anyone who thinks evolution is slow (or it does not exist) should learn about the growing crisis in antibiotic resistant diseases. This illustrates why ignorance is dangerous. We are frittering away the most potent drugs ever invented, mainly using them to keep the cost of meat low in the US. If this continues for a few more generations we will be back to the world as it was before 1940, when ordinary diseases often killed people of all ages. We have already thrown way the opportunity to eliminate tuberculosis, one of the most virulent diseases. - Jed --MS_Mac_OE_3187707233_1125723_MIME_Part Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Re: OFF TOPIC Annoying recursive hypothesis!

Creationism still dominates evolutionary theory
in one important respect: the notion that life and the universe
have a beginning.

The universe and life may have no ultimate beginning and
no ultimate end. The universe and life may be contiguous with
each other. Life may evolve but it may never be extinguished.


Harry


Jed Rothwell at jedrothwell mindspring.com wrote:

Harry Veeder wrote:

Personally I do not feel life BEGINS by chance, although the subsequent evolution is plausibly Darwinian.
Perhaps an E.T. (not necessarily God) has been
'guiding' the evolution of life on this planet.

I find this hypothesis intensely annoying! It does not solve the problem; i= t merely removes it from our planet to some other planet. If ET #1 guided ou= r evolution, do we assume that some other ET (#2) was there to guide ET #1, = and did #3 guide #2? It is an infinite recursion. At some point, an intellig= ent species must have arisen from purely natural causes without intervention= by any other species. Since it had to happen at least once, why shouldn't w= e assume it happened again on earth?

The hypothesis is also annoying because it is not falsifiable.

Regarding the Darwin quote: Yes he said that, but it has not been demonstra= ted that any organ exists which could not have been formed by numerous succe= ssive, slight modifications. Indeed, every organ I know of still has numerou= s existing successive slight modifications remaining in primitive species, i= ncluding eyes, an example Darwin cited. Primitive eyes that can only sense t= he direction of light are way better than no eyes at all.

Plus, anyone who thinks evolution is slow (or it does not exist) should lea= rn about the growing crisis in antibiotic resistant diseases. This illustrat= es why ignorance is dangerous. We are frittering away the most potent drugs = ever invented, mainly using them to keep the cost of meat low in the US. If = this continues for a few more generations we will be back to the world as it= was before 1940, when ordinary diseases often killed people of all ages. We= have already thrown way the opportunity to eliminate tuberculosis, one of t= he most virulent diseases.

- Jed


--MS_Mac_OE_3187707233_1125723_MIME_Part-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 4 15:19:24 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j04NJHT0030688; Tue, 4 Jan 2005 15:19:17 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j04NJETr030661; Tue, 4 Jan 2005 15:19:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 15:19:14 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <003501c4f2b4$00192720$6601a8c0 msns.flt.ptd.net> From: "revtec" To: References: <2.2.32.20050104184641.00970148 pop.freeserve.net> <6.2.0.14.2.20050104152832.02aa36b0@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Annoying recursive hypothesis! Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 18:20:35 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0032_01C4F28A.156D26A0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57207 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0032_01C4F28A.156D26A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Jed Rothwell=20 To: vortex-L eskimo.com=20 Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 3:48 PM Subject: OFF TOPIC Annoying recursive hypothesis! Harry Veeder wrote: Personally I do not feel life BEGINS by chance, although the subsequent evolution is plausibly Darwinian. Perhaps an E.T. (not necessarily God) has been 'guiding' the evolution of life on this planet. I find this hypothesis intensely annoying! It does not solve the = problem; it merely removes it from our planet to some other planet. If = ET #1 guided our evolution, do we assume that some other ET (#2) was = there to guide ET #1, and did #3 guide #2? It is an infinite recursion. = At some point, an intelligent species must have arisen from purely = natural causes without intervention by any other species. Since it had = to happen at least once, why shouldn't we assume it happened again on = earth? In the entire book "Origin of the Species", Darwin never once touched = the subject of origin of the species. I read it cover to cover and it = isn't there! I consider all the "evidence" I have ever seen for = evolution to be somewhere between laughable and pathetic. Yet, you are = right. Somewhere down the line of "creators", someone got evolved, most = likely at someplace outside this universe. This leads us to THE MOTHER OF ALL PARADOXES. (PARADOXI)? How can an entity, who is simple enough to evolve, create another = entity that is too complex to evolve? By how many orders of magnitude are todays human technologists short = of producing an electro/bio/mechanical creation that is more complex = than the human body itself, and does anyone think we could ultimately do = it? A Star Trek type Data would probably qualify. The hypothesis is also annoying because it is not falsifiable. Regarding the Darwin quote: Yes he said that, but it has not been = demonstrated that any organ exists which could not have been formed by = numerous successive, slight modifications. Indeed, every organ I know of = still has numerous existing successive slight modifications remaining in = primitive species, including eyes, an example Darwin cited. Primitive = eyes that can only sense the direction of light are way better than no = eyes at all. When you have eyes that can't quite see and wings that can't quite = fly, what evolutionary force can bring these useless structures to = completion? A winged but flightless animal that is in all other = respects similar to its relatives would be at a distinct disadvantage = when competing for existance as he drags these encumbering growths = through life. Natural selection would eliminate this creature before he = could pass on the somehow improved genetic traits that would form a = flyable offspring. And, where would this freak find a suitable mate = that would amplify the trait by allowing the improved wing gene to = dominate? Plus, anyone who thinks evolution is slow (or it does not exist) = should learn about the growing crisis in antibiotic resistant diseases.=20 Your talking about adaptation variation or "mircoevolution". I have = no problem believing that. We see it all the time. With time money and = education anyone can produce a new type of dog. But, when you are = finished it is still a dog! You can't breed it to become a cat. This illustrates why ignorance is dangerous. We are frittering away = the most potent drugs ever invented, mainly using them to keep the cost = of meat low in the US. If this continues for a few more generations we = will be back to the world as it was before 1940, when ordinary diseases = often killed people of all ages. We have already thrown way the = opportunity to eliminate tuberculosis, one of the most virulent = diseases. - Jed ------=_NextPart_000_0032_01C4F28A.156D26A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Jed Rothwell
Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 = 3:48=20 PM
Subject: OFF TOPIC Annoying = recursive=20 hypothesis!

Harry Veeder wrote:

Personally I do not = feel life=20 BEGINS by chance, although the
subsequent evolution is plausibly=20 Darwinian.
Perhaps an E.T. (not necessarily God) has = been
'guiding'=20 the evolution of life on this planet.

I find this hypothesis intensely annoying! It does not solve = the=20 problem; it merely removes it from our planet to some other planet. If = ET #1=20 guided our evolution, do we assume that some other ET (#2) was there = to guide=20 ET #1, and did #3 guide #2? It is an infinite recursion. At some = point, an=20 intelligent species must have arisen from purely natural causes = without=20 intervention by any other species. Since it had to happen at least = once, why=20 shouldn't we assume it happened again on earth?
 
In the entire book "Origin of the = Species",=20 Darwin never once touched the subject of origin of the species.  = I read=20 it cover to cover and it isn't there!  I consider all the = "evidence" I=20 have ever  seen for evolution to be somewhere between laughable = and=20 pathetic.  Yet, you are right.  Somewhere down the line of=20 "creators", someone got evolved, most likely at someplace outside this = universe.
This leads us to THE MOTHER OF ALL=20 PARADOXES.  (PARADOXI)?
 
How can an entity, who is simple = enough to=20 evolve, create another entity that is too complex to = evolve?
 
By how many orders of magnitude = are todays=20 human technologists short of producing an electro/bio/mechanical = creation=20 that is more complex than the human body itself, and does anyone think = we=20 could ultimately do it?  A Star Trek type Data would probably=20 qualify.


The hypothesis is also annoying because it is not=20 falsifiable.

Regarding the Darwin quote: Yes he said that, but = it has=20 not been demonstrated that any organ exists which could not have been = formed=20 by numerous successive, slight modifications. Indeed, every organ I = know of=20 still has numerous existing successive slight modifications remaining = in=20 primitive species, including eyes, an example Darwin cited. Primitive = eyes=20 that can only sense the direction of light are way better than no eyes = at=20 all.
 
When you have eyes that can't quite = see and wings=20 that can't quite fly, what evolutionary force can bring these useless=20 structures to completion?  A winged but flightless animal that is = in all=20 other respects similar to its relatives would be at a distinct = disadvantage=20 when competing for existance as he drags these encumbering growths = through=20 life.  Natural selection would eliminate this creature before he = could=20 pass on the somehow improved genetic traits that would form a flyable=20 offspring.  And, where would this freak find a suitable mate that = would=20 amplify the trait by allowing the improved wing gene to=20 dominate?

Plus, anyone who thinks evolution is slow (or = it does=20 not exist) should learn about the growing crisis in antibiotic = resistant=20 diseases.
 
Your talking about adaptation variation or = "mircoevolution".  I have=20 no problem believing that.  We see it all the time.  With = time money=20 and education anyone can produce a new type of dog.  But, when = you are=20 finished it is still a dog!  You can't breed it to become a = cat.
 
This illustrates why ignorance is dangerous. We are frittering = away the=20 most potent drugs ever invented, mainly using them to keep the cost of = meat=20 low in the US. If this continues for a few more generations we will be = back to=20 the world as it was before 1940, when ordinary diseases often killed = people of=20 all ages. We have already thrown way the opportunity to eliminate=20 tuberculosis, one of the most virulent diseases.

-=20 Jed
------=_NextPart_000_0032_01C4F28A.156D26A0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 4 16:35:49 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j050ZiG8024713; Tue, 4 Jan 2005 16:35:44 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j050ZWXu024601; Tue, 4 Jan 2005 16:35:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 16:35:32 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: "John Steck" To: Subject: RE: WHAT'S NEW Monday, Jan 03 05 Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 18:34:56 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <001801c4f2af$81db5490$c828010a arghou.argcorp.argworldwide.com> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57208 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: "Sometimes we can choose the path we follow, sometimes our choices are made for us, and sometimes we have no choice at all." -Neil Gaiman "The Sandman" The first I think is an idealist's illusion, the second a cold reality, the third a common occurrence... but then again I tend to be a cynic most of the time. If you become a student of human psychology you discover our sub-conscious decision making ability is severely flawed by life long conditioning, education, and natural selection responses. It is the cornerstone of marketing and advertising. I do not think that conclusion precludes fatalism however. Our future is not written in stone somewhere. We exercise free will, but it would be naive to think we are not largely predictable because of severe influences past and present. -Steck -----Original Message----- From: SnowDog [mailto:SnowDog GoldDirectory.com] Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 4:48 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: WHAT'S NEW Monday, Jan 03 05 >>>There is NOTHING random in the natural world. [...] Do you believe in human volition? Craig (Houston) -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.298 / Virus Database: 265.6.8 - Release Date: 03-Jan-05 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 4 16:46:24 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j050kHG8028475; Tue, 4 Jan 2005 16:46:18 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j050kGc6028455; Tue, 4 Jan 2005 16:46:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 16:46:16 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2005 19:45:06 -0500 Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Annoying recursive hypothesis! From: Harry Veeder To: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050104152832.02aa36b0 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57209 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > Jed Rothwell at jedrothwell mindspring.com wrote: > >> Harry Veeder wrote: >> >> Personally I do not feel life BEGINS by chance, although the >> subsequent evolution is plausibly Darwinian. >> Perhaps an E.T. (not necessarily God) has been >> 'guiding' the evolution of life on this planet. > > I find this hypothesis intensely annoying! It does not solve the problem; it > merely removes it from our planet to some other planet. If ET #1 guided our > evolution, do we assume that some other ET (#2) was there to guide ET #1, and > did #3 guide #2? It is an infinite recursion. At some point, an intelligent > species must have arisen from purely natural causes without intervention by > any other species. Since it had to happen at least once, why shouldn't we > assume it happened again on earth? Sure, but this does not rule out the possibility of an E.T. having played some other role in the evolutionary history of our planet. There is more to evolution then the evolution of 'intelligence'. Harry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 4 17:05:09 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j05153T0027816; Tue, 4 Jan 2005 17:05:03 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j05151Bo027790; Tue, 4 Jan 2005 17:05:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 17:05:01 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com Message-ID: <77.3c1b1efd.2f0c9733 aol.com> Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 20:04:51 EST Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Annoying recursive hypothesis! To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-----------------------------1104887091" X-Mailer: 9.0 SE for Windows sub 5005 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57210 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -------------------------------1104887091 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/4/2005 6:15:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, eo200 ncf.ca writes: Personally I do not feel life BEGINS by chance, although the subsequent evolution is plausibly Darwinian. Perhaps an E.T. (not necessarily God) has been Man has come very close to producing synthetic life. We have made proteins, self replicating molecules. It only a matter of time until man creates living matter from non living matter. Will that make man God? Is then a God need to have life? Frank Z -------------------------------1104887091 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In a message dated 1/4/2005 6:15:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, eo200 ncf= .ca=20 writes:
<= FONT=20 style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size= =3D2>
Personally I do not feel life BEGINS by chance, although=20 the
subsequent evolution is plausibly Darwinian.
Perhaps an E.T. (= not=20 necessarily God) has been
Man has come very close to producing synthetic life.  We have made= =20 proteins, self replicating molecules.  It only a matter of time until m= an=20 creates living matter from non living matter.  Will that make man=20 God?  Is then a God need to have life?
 
Frank Z
-------------------------------1104887091-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 4 17:09:21 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0519ET0028773; Tue, 4 Jan 2005 17:09:14 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0519C6c028743; Tue, 4 Jan 2005 17:09:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 17:09:12 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com Message-ID: <12c.548426d1.2f0c982c aol.com> Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 20:09:00 EST Subject: Re: Cheat meat......pest control.....wait! To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-----------------------------1104887340" X-Mailer: 9.0 SE for Windows sub 5005 Resent-Message-ID: <9UiPoD.A.DBH.44z2BB ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57211 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -------------------------------1104887340 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/4/2005 4:46:18 PM Eastern Standard Time, rockcast earthlink.net writes: Plus, anyone who thinks evolution is slow (or it does not exist) should > learn about the growing crisis in antibiotic resistant diseases. Evolution is not as slow as you may think. I occurs rapidly when a species is almost wiped out. Only the most adaptive survive. I not sure man is currently evolving. Technology has removed the pressure of natural selection and the gene poll is very large. Frank Z -------------------------------1104887340 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In a message dated 1/4/2005 4:46:18 PM Eastern Standard Time,=20 rockcast earthlink.net writes:
<= FONT=20 style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size= =3D2>Plus,=20 anyone who thinks evolution is slow (or it does not exist) should
>=20 learn about the growing crisis in antibiotic resistant diseases.=20
Evolution is not as slow as you may think.  I occurs  rapidly= =20 when a species is almost wiped out.  Only the most adaptive survive.&nb= sp;=20 I not sure man is currently evolving.  Technology has removed the press= ure=20 of natural selection and the gene poll is very large.
 
Frank Z
-------------------------------1104887340-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 5 03:17:40 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j05BHbgo018276; Wed, 5 Jan 2005 03:17:37 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j05BHKGm018209; Wed, 5 Jan 2005 03:17:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 03:17:20 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <003e01c4f317$2b42ec20$0500a8c0 nixlaptop> From: "Nick Palmer" To: References: <2.2.32.20050104184641.00970148 pop.freeserve.net> <6.2.0.14.2.20050104152832.02aa36b0@pop.mindspring.com> <00c601c4f2ad$6ed2a8a0$d657ccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> Subject: Re: Intelligent Design Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 11:10:23 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57212 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Back in the days of the CompuServe forums, where some of us met, this evolution versus creationism argument came up. Whilst I think microevolution is obvious (legs getting longer, camouflage getting more effective etc) I am not so sure about the giant leaps. Back then the eye was brought up as an example of a complex structure and people purported to show how it could have evolved in mini steps. I believed them! However, I posted one example that has always bothered me, to whit the process of butterfly metamorphosis. Inside the chrysalis, the body of the caterpillar breaks down almost completely and reforms into something very different and, on the face of it, more complex. I could never see that this process could evolve in small steps that were evolutionarily advantageous at each stage. The only response I got was hand waving from some boy wonder science geek who said that evolution has been proved as a theory therefore metamorphosis must have evolved (without actually suggesting how)! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 5 05:44:18 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j05Di9go018742; Wed, 5 Jan 2005 05:44:13 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j05Di8Gt018735; Wed, 5 Jan 2005 05:44:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 05:44:08 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2005 21:46:08 +0800 From: FHLew Subject: Re: Salty water from Mars? To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <001b01c4f32c$e8d377e0$0201a8c0 fhlew> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 Content-type: multipart/related; boundary="Boundary_(ID_9HX44Fd1EiY8k4haDgN4Qw)"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal X-ASG-Debug-ID: 1104932742-29538-335-1 X-Barracuda-URL: http://172.19.0.19:8000/cgi-bin/mark.cgi X-ASG-Orig-Subj: Re: Salty water from Mars? X-Virus-Scanned: by Barracuda Spam Firewall #9 at tm.net.my X-Barracuda-Spam-Score: 1.13 X-Barracuda-Spam-Status: No, SCORE=1.13 using global scores of TAG_LEVEL=1000.0 QUARANTINE_LEVEL=1000.0 KILL_LEVEL=5.5 tests=EXTRA_MPART_TYPE, HTML_20_30, HTML_MESSAGE X-Barracuda-Spam-Report: Code version 2.64, rules version 2.1.774 Rule breakdown below pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- ------------------------------------------- 0.01 EXTRA_MPART_TYPE Header has extraneous Content-type:...type= entry 0.00 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message 1.12 HTML_20_30 BODY: Message is 20% to 30% HTML References: <004601c4f202$e5bd6eb0$72037841 xptower> <004301c4f26a$02c16360$6601a8c0 msns.flt.ptd.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57213 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_9HX44Fd1EiY8k4haDgN4Qw) Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_JdA500kHOvuOKTrYFv3jPg)" --Boundary_(ID_JdA500kHOvuOKTrYFv3jPg) Content-type: text/plain; charset=Windows-1252 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT BlankGreetings revtec wrote: < Regarding the fate of Mars' water, ......... There remain some difficult problems in orbital mechanics.> Cosmic Chemistry : The origin of the earth's oceans. http://www.johnkharms.com/cosmic.htm With regards Lew ----- Original Message ----- From: revtec To: vortex-l eskimo.com Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 10:30 PM Subject: Re: Salty water from Mars? The oceans are obviously getting saltier each year as additiona minerals are disolved by rain water and washed to the sea. It has been calculated through measurements of river flow rates world wide with their associated salt content how much this is. This rate is such that the oceans of 50 million years ago would have been fresh water. As I recall, this argument was used to debunk 6,000 yr. biblical creation, but now it has become a serious limitation to the 10's or 100's of additional millions of years needed by evolution theory. That 50 million is a maximum number since leaching rates drop over time as the mineral deposits become depleted. Also the structure of many of the worlds river valleys show evidence of much higher rates of water flow than we presently see. Check "The Genesis Flood" by Whitcomb and Morris for more details. Regarding the fate of Mars' water, are we approaching some vindication of Velikovski? There remain some difficult problems in orbital mechanics. Jeff ----- Original Message ----- From: RC Macaulay To: vortex-l eskimo.com Sent: Monday, January 03, 2005 9:12 PM Subject: Salty water from Mars? In Bob Parks newsletter " whats new" ,he reported the Mars explorers encountered dry ocean beds that once contained " salt water". Perhaps that can explain my long sought answer to " why" earth's oceans are so salty. There is not enough salt on earth to cause the level of salt content that exists in the earth' oceans. Hmm.. again.. did earth close encounter with Mars in the distant past " strip " off water causing what the ancient's dsecribed as the " great flood" ? Richard --Boundary_(ID_JdA500kHOvuOKTrYFv3jPg) Content-type: text/html; charset=Windows-1252 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Blank
Greetings
 
revtec  wrote:
 
< Regarding the fate of Mars' water, ......... There remain some difficult problems in orbital mechanics.>
 
       Cosmic Chemistry : The origin of the earth's oceans.
 
 
 
 
With regards
    Lew

 

 

 
----- Original Message -----
From: revtec
Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 10:30 PM
Subject: Re: Salty water from Mars?

The oceans are obviously getting saltier each year as additiona minerals are disolved by rain water and washed to the sea. It has been calculated through measurements of river flow rates world wide with their associated salt content how much this is.  This rate is such that the oceans of 50 million years ago would have been fresh water.  As I recall, this argument was used to debunk 6,000 yr. biblical creation, but now it has become a serious limitation to the 10's or 100's of additional millions of years needed by evolution theory.  That 50 million is a maximum number since leaching rates drop over time as the mineral deposits become depleted.  Also the structure of many of the worlds river valleys show evidence of much higher rates of water flow than we presently see.
 
Check "The Genesis Flood" by Whitcomb and Morris for more details.
 
Regarding the fate of Mars' water, are we approaching some vindication of Velikovski?  There remain some difficult problems in orbital mechanics.
 
Jeff  
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, January 03, 2005 9:12 PM
Subject: Salty water from Mars?

In Bob Parks newsletter " whats new" ,he reported the Mars explorers encountered dry ocean beds that once contained " salt water".
 
Perhaps that can explain my long sought answer to " why" earth's oceans are so salty. There is not enough salt on earth to cause the level of salt content that exists in the earth' oceans. Hmm.. again.. did earth close encounter with Mars in the distant past " strip " off water causing what the ancient's dsecribed as the " great flood" ?
 
Richard

 

--Boundary_(ID_JdA500kHOvuOKTrYFv3jPg)-- --Boundary_(ID_9HX44Fd1EiY8k4haDgN4Qw) Content-id: <001601c4f32c$e8a8be60$0201a8c0 fhlew> Content-type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-transfer-encoding: base64 Content-disposition: attachment; filename="Blank Bkgrd.gif" R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== --Boundary_(ID_9HX44Fd1EiY8k4haDgN4Qw)-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 5 06:56:29 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j05EuJgo007664; Wed, 5 Jan 2005 06:56:23 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j05EuHcN007652; Wed, 5 Jan 2005 06:56:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 06:56:17 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002201c4f336$20f61c00$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <2.2.32.20050104184641.00970148 pop.freeserve.net> <6.2.0.14.2.20050104152832.02aa36b0@pop.mindspring.com> <00c601c4f2ad$6ed2a8a0$d657ccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <003e01c4f317$2b42ec20$0500a8c0@nixlaptop> Subject: Re: Intelligent Design Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 06:52:06 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57214 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: From: "Nick Palmer" > one example > that has always bothered me, to whit the process of butterfly > metamorphosis. Inside the chrysalis, the body of the caterpillar breaks down > almost completely and reforms into something very different and, on the face > of it, more complex. I could never see that this process could evolve in > small steps that were evolutionarily advantageous at each stage. I hope that someone will provide a good answer for that one... I certainly don't have it now, but will check my collection of Richard Dawkins material later-on.... in the mean time, it does bring to mind one very fascinating possibility.... Researchers have been pursuing almost every conceivable pathway and dead-end alley in what can be called the non-stop pursuit for human *life extension.* I suspect that if one totaled up the research commitment (often much of it hidden in other studies) it would run into the billions. Imagine this, Movie lovers... As, if nothing else, it would make a good Sci-Fi plot. The butterfly genome is probably easy to decode, compared with that of a mammal. There are probably only a few dozen genes responsible for metamorphosis - certainly less than 100. Imagine isolating the ones which are responsible for breaking down and reassembling 'only' the body, keeping the brain intact. You would need to dream up some gimmick for that part. We would first try the technology on favorite pets, of course. This is similar to what is happening with cloning - only now you get the exact same animal, no need to house-break the new/old "Spot" once again... this a vast improvement over just a similarly shaped copy that cloning gives. We know that there is a waiting list of several thousand folks who have already frozen the DNA of their pet in anticipation- even "Trigger" is waiting to be revived. It is too late for them to get the benefit of this new "cloning-plus". Yet they will fork over $20-50,000 for normal cloning, so we could ask $100k a pop for "metamophasizing"... yes... this could be big business. Of course the next part of the story/screenplay... and the set-up for whatever drama one wishes to add to the human part, is obvious... only please don't cast Jeff Goldblum as butterfly-boy. Twenty-some years later, I still cannot see him in another movie without thinking of the Fly.... yup he was just a Jurassic fly when I was cheering for the dinosaur to eat Laura Dern. OTOH, David Cronenberg should direct it... no doubt about that! Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 5 09:02:50 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j05H2hgo011239; Wed, 5 Jan 2005 09:02:44 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j05H2gca011225; Wed, 5 Jan 2005 09:02:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 09:02:42 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050105111347.02a52be0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2005 11:49:46 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: RE: WHAT'S NEW Monday, Jan 03 05 In-Reply-To: References: <001801c4f2af$81db5490$c828010a arghou.argcorp.argworldwide.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_6404078==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57215 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --=====================_6404078==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed John Steck wrote: >I do not think that conclusion precludes fatalism however. Our future is >not written in stone somewhere. We exercise free will, but it would be >naive to think we are not largely predictable because of severe influences >past and present. This strikes me as a false dichotomy. We can be completely bounded by influences and yet also have free will. While I hesitate to compare people to computers, an analogy does come to mind. Computers are 100% predictable, and of course they are completely bounded by a small set of rules, but that does not limit the number and variety of programs a computer can run. The set of programs is infinitely large, and as varied as the programmer's imagination. Programs are already the most complex structures ever devised by people, and there is no reason to think they could not be made far more complex, rivaling DNA and cells in complexity and the number of instructions. (I am not suggesting that people are 100% predictable or bounded by a small set of rules.) People are domesticated primates -- like pet capuchin monkeys. They are as bound and limited by biology and primate psychology as chimpanzees or any other primates. People will never escape, outgrow or transcend these limitations for even one second, any more than a bat can voluntarily stop echolocation, or a plant can stop photosynthesis. Edwin Wilson, with whom I seldom disagree, once described human biophilia for certain landscapes: ". . . people want to be on the height looking down; they prefer open, savanna like terrain with scattered trees and copses; they want to be near a body of water, such as a river or lake, or oceanfront. . . . People want to be in the environments in which our species evolved over millions of years. That is, hidden in a copse or rock wall, looking out over savanna and transitional woodland at acacia and similar dominant trees of the African environment. And, why not? Is that such a strange idea? Let me tell you that all mobile animals, down to the very simplest, with tiny brains, have what we call habitat selection, innate habitat selection. They have elaborate algorithms, searching for the right microenvironment -- the right spot to settle -- and hunt, or live and nest. This is a universal trait. Why then, would it be such a strange thing to find at least a residue of humanity's long, long evolutionary history. . ." - "The Coming Synergism between Science and the Humanities," lecture given at the University of California, San Diego, broadcast on UCTV I agree with everything up to the last sentence. What we see is not a "residue" but the living, continuing, embodiment of these traits and this evolutionary history. It is as much a part of our present makeup as our metabolism -- and just as vital to us. These traits have as much power over us today as they did millions of years ago. They will *always* have this power. But here is the point -- or the escape clause, if you will: among those traits are free will and creative thinking. We have free will. So do chimpanzees. I think all mammals do. We also have hands, and tools, and these give us an outlet for creative thinking and action. It opens up an infinite variety of possibilities, both good and evil. A computer is a general purpose logic machine -- it is a universal Turing machine that can, in principle, perform any operation that any other Turing machine can do. Free will, imagination plus hands (or feet, actually -- our most unique appendages) make us general-purpose creativity machines. I suspect we are capable of achieving anything that any carbon based life form on any planet can achieve. As I said in the book: "Ever since we invented tools and began to shape our own environment, we have shaped our own destiny." I was thinking of the opening scenes in the movie "2001" although I do not believe we were tutored by another species. Children recapitulate our tool-making accomplishments so readily I am sure the skill is inborn and instinctual, like the beaver's ability to make a dam. - Jed --=====================_6404078==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable John Steck wrote:

I do not think that conclusio= n precludes fatalism however.  Our future is
not written in stone somewhere.  We exercise free will, but it would be
naive to think we are not largely predictable because of severe influences
past and present.

This strikes me as a false dichotomy. We can be completely bounded by influences and yet also have free will. While I hesitate to compare people to computers, an analogy does come to mind. Computers are 100% predictable, and of course they are completely bounded by a small set of rules, but that does not limit the number and variety of programs a computer can run. The set of programs is infinitely large, and as varied as the programmer's imagination. Programs are already the most complex structures ever devised by people, and there is no reason to think they could not be made far more complex, rivaling DNA and cells in complexity and the number of instructions.

(I am not suggesting that people are 100% predictable or bounded by a small set of rules.)

People are domesticated primates -- like pet capuchin monkeys. They are as bound and limited by biology and primate psychology as chimpanzees or any other primates. People will never escape, outgrow or transcend these limitations for even one second, any more than a bat can voluntarily stop echolocation, or a plant can stop photosynthesis. Edwin Wilson, with whom I seldom disagree, once described human biophilia for certain landscapes:

". . . people want to be on the height looking down; they prefer open, savanna like terrain with scattered trees and copses; they want to be near a body of water, such as a river or lake, or oceanfront. . . . People want to be in the environments in which our species evolved over millions of years. That is, hidden in a copse or rock wall, looking out over savanna and transitional woodland at acacia and similar dominant trees of the African environment. And, why not? Is that such a strange idea? Let me tell you that all mobile animals, down to the very simplest, with tiny brains, have what we call habitat selection, innate habitat selection. They have elaborate algorithms, searching for the right microenvironment -- the right spot to settle -- and hunt, or live and nest. This is a universal trait. Why then, would it be such a strange thing to find at least a residue of humanity's long, long evolutionary history. . ."

- "The Coming Synergism between Science and the Humanities," lecture given at the University of California, San Diego, broadcast on UCTV

I agree with everything up to the last sentence. What we see is not a "residue" but the living, continuing, embodiment of these traits and this evolutionary history. It is as much a part of our present makeup as our  metabolism -- and just as vital to us. These traits have as much power over us today as they did millions of years ago. They will *always* have this power. But here is the point -- or the escape clause, if you will: among those traits are free will and creative thinking. We have free will. So do chimpanzees. I think all mammals do. We also have hands, and tools, and these give us an outlet for creative thinking and action. It opens up an infinite variety of possibilities, both good and evil. A computer is a general purpose logic machine -- it is a universal Turing machine that can, in principle, perform any operation that any other Turing machine can do. Free will, imagination plus hands (or feet, actually -- our most unique appendages) make us general-purpose creativity machines. I suspect we are capable of achieving anything that any carbon based life form on any planet can achieve.

As I said in the book: "Ever since we invented tools and began to shape our own environment, we have shaped our own destiny." I was thinking of the opening scenes in the movie "2001" although I do not believe we were tutored by another species. Children recapitulate our tool-making accomplishments so readily I am sure the skill is inborn and instinctual, like the beaver's ability to make a dam.

- Jed
 --=====================_6404078==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 5 09:27:58 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j05HRmOL027976; Wed, 5 Jan 2005 09:27:48 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j05HRgdA027948; Wed, 5 Jan 2005 09:27:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 09:27:42 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050105120421.02a50278 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2005 12:27:25 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: RE: WHAT'S NEW Monday, Jan 03 05 In-Reply-To: References: <001801c4f2af$81db5490$c828010a arghou.argcorp.argworldwide.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_7904656==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: <4Xcyo.A.o0G.OOC3BB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57216 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --=====================_7904656==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Let me give one more example of what I had in mind. John Steck wrote: >If you become a student of human psychology you discover our >sub-conscious decision making ability is severely flawed by life long >conditioning, education, and natural selection responses. It is the >cornerstone of marketing and advertising. Yes, it is, but I would not call this a flaw. It is a specification, and it does not actually limit our actions or control our behavior. Returning to the (inadequate!) analogy to computers, these things are the microcode controlling the central processor. The human-mind-as-computer can still run any program you like, and it can still emulate any other mind, but because of the way it evolved and because of the constraints placed upon it by culture, education and so on, it runs some programs awkwardly and slowly. People can add up a column of numbers, and they can fly a airplane, but we are not evolved to do these tasks, so they take a great deal of extra mental effort. We have to bend the mind to do things it was not evolved to do. You can be sure that birds fly using far fewer brain cells and we do, and of course they are much better at it. As for adding numbers, we can devise living computers made from a small network of neurons that can add far more reliably and faster than most people do, and there have been a few people born with an astounding ability to do mathematical computation, the so-called "human adding machines." No doubt they have brains that can be wired directly to perform mathematical computation, whereas the rest of us must do it symbolically, using higher logic many layers above the primitive arithmetic operations. In other words, no matter how limited our minds may be because of education, culture, or inborn biology, we can always transcend the present-day expression of these limitations. Millions of people throughout history have done this. That is the source of all progress, and all cultural change. The key word is "transcend" -- which does not mean "escape" or "sublimate." Social evils such as war, rape, murder and McDonald's advertisements will always fascinate, attract and secretly thrill people. But that does not mean people will always indulge themselves in war or McDonald's food. It means that "Hamlet" will be a perennial bestseller for the rest of history. - Jed --=====================_7904656==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Let me give one more example of what I had in mind. John Steck wrote:

If you become a student of hu= man psychology you discover our
sub-conscious decision making ability is severely flawed by life long
conditioning, education, and natural selection responses.  It is the
cornerstone of marketing and advertising.

Yes, it is, but I would not call this a flaw. It is a specification, and it does not actually limit our actions or control our behavior. Returning to the (inadequate!) analogy to computers, these things are the microcode controlling the central processor. The human-mind-as-computer can still run any program you like, and it can still emulate any other mind, but because of the way it evolved and because of the constraints placed upon it by culture, education and so on, it runs some programs awkwardly and slowly. People can add up a column of numbers, and they can fly a airplane, but we are not evolved to do these tasks, so they take a great deal of extra mental effort. We have to bend the mind to do things it was not evolved to do. You can be sure that birds fly using far fewer brain cells and we do, and of course they are much better at it. As for adding numbers, we can devise living computers made from a small network of neurons that can add far more reliably and faster than most people do, and there have been a few people born with an astounding ability to do mathematical computation, the so-called "human adding machines." No doubt they have brains that can be wired directly to perform mathematical computation, whereas the rest of us must do it symbolically, using higher logic many layers above the primitive arithmetic operations.

In other words, no matter how limited our minds may be because of education, culture, or inborn biology, we can always transcend the present-day expression of these limitations. Millions of people throughout history have done this. That is the source of all progress, and all cultural change.

The key word is "transcend" -- which does not mean "escape" or "sublimate." Social evils such as war, rape, murder and McDonald's advertisements will always fascinate, attract and secretly thrill people. But that does not mean people will always indulge themselves in war or McDonald's food. It means that "Hamlet" will be a perennial bestseller for the rest of history.

- Jed
--=====================_7904656==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 5 10:21:19 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j05IL4OL014596; Wed, 5 Jan 2005 10:21:04 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j05IL2ns014576; Wed, 5 Jan 2005 10:21:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 10:21:02 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: "John Steck" To: Subject: RE: WHAT'S NEW Monday, Jan 03 05 Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 12:20:46 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0016_01C4F320.FBF24C40" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050105120421.02a50278 pop.mindspring.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57217 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C4F320.FBF24C40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Flawed in that we truly believe we are freely making unbiased choices and have lordship over the influences around us. That believe exists only through the bliss of ignorance. Consciously we do sometimes exercise broad judgment over our impulses, unconsciously we are quite pre-disposed to pattern behaviors and vulnerable to perception manipulation (hypnosis, illusions, tongue twisters, porn, smoking, White House briefings (ha ha), etc.). Sorry if I've upset your apple cart... we all would like to believe we can somehow transcend our own personal idiosyncrasies, but even the will to continuously try and do that is part of our learned response conditioning. 8^) -Steck -----Original Message----- From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:jedrothwell mindspring.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2005 11:27 AM To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: RE: WHAT'S NEW Monday, Jan 03 05 Let me give one more example of what I had in mind. John Steck wrote: If you become a student of human psychology you discover our sub-conscious decision making ability is severely flawed by life long conditioning, education, and natural selection responses. It is the cornerstone of marketing and advertising. Yes, it is, but I would not call this a flaw. It is a specification, and it does not actually limit our actions or control our behavior. Returning to the (inadequate!) analogy to computers, these things are the microcode controlling the central processor. The human-mind-as-computer can still run any program you like, and it can still emulate any other mind, but because of the way it evolved and because of the constraints placed upon it by culture, education and so on, it runs some programs awkwardly and slowly. People can add up a column of numbers, and they can fly a airplane, but we are not evolved to do these tasks, so they take a great deal of extra mental effort. We have to bend the mind to do things it was not evolved to do. You can be sure that birds fly using far fewer brain cells and we do, and of course they are much better at it. As for adding numbers, we can devise living computers made from a small network of neurons that can add far more reliably and faster than most people do, and there have been a few people born with an astounding ability to do mathematical computation, the so-called "human adding machines." No doubt they have brains that can be wired directly to perform mathematical computation, whereas the rest of us must do it symbolically, using higher logic many layers above the primitive arithmetic operations. In other words, no matter how limited our minds may be because of education, culture, or inborn biology, we can always transcend the present-day expression of these limitations. Millions of people throughout history have done this. That is the source of all progress, and all cultural change. The key word is "transcend" -- which does not mean "escape" or "sublimate." Social evils such as war, rape, murder and McDonald's advertisements will always fascinate, attract and secretly thrill people. But that does not mean people will always indulge themselves in war or McDonald's food. It means that "Hamlet" will be a perennial bestseller for the rest of history. - Jed ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C4F320.FBF24C40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Flawed=20 in that we truly believe we are freely making unbiased choices and=20 have lordship over the influences around us.  That believe = exists only=20 through the bliss of ignorance.  Consciously we do sometimes = exercise=20 broad judgment over our impulses, unconsciously we are quite = pre-disposed to=20 pattern behaviors and vulnerable to perception manipulation = (hypnosis,=20 illusions, tongue twisters, porn, smoking, White House briefings (ha = ha),=20 etc.). 
 
Sorry=20 if I've upset your apple cart... we all would like to believe we = can=20 somehow transcend our own personal idiosyncrasies, but even the will to=20 continuously try and do that is part of our learned response = conditioning. =20 8^)
 
-Steck 
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Jed Rothwell=20 [mailto:jedrothwell mindspring.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January = 05, 2005=20 11:27 AM
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
Subject: RE: WHAT'S = NEW=20 Monday, Jan 03 05

Let me give one = more example=20 of what I had in mind. John Steck wrote:

If you become a student = of human=20 psychology you discover our
sub-conscious decision making ability = is=20 severely flawed by life long
conditioning, education, and natural = selection=20 responses.  It is the
cornerstone of marketing and=20 advertising.

Yes, it is, but I would not call = this a=20 flaw. It is a specification, and it does not actually limit our actions = or=20 control our behavior. Returning to the (inadequate!) analogy to = computers, these=20 things are the microcode controlling the central processor. The=20 human-mind-as-computer can still run any program you like, and it can = still=20 emulate any other mind, but because of the way it evolved and because of = the=20 constraints placed upon it by culture, education and so on, it runs some = programs awkwardly and slowly. People can add up a column of numbers, = and they=20 can fly a airplane, but we are not evolved to do these tasks, so they = take a=20 great deal of extra mental effort. We have to bend the mind to do things = it was=20 not evolved to do. You can be sure that birds fly using far fewer brain = cells=20 and we do, and of course they are much better at it. As for adding = numbers, we=20 can devise living computers made from a small network of neurons that = can add=20 far more reliably and faster than most people do, and there have been a = few=20 people born with an astounding ability to do mathematical computation, = the=20 so-called "human adding machines." No doubt they have brains that can be = wired=20 directly to perform mathematical computation, whereas the rest of us = must do it=20 symbolically, using higher logic many layers above the primitive = arithmetic=20 operations.

In other words, no matter how limited our minds may = be=20 because of education, culture, or inborn biology, we can always = transcend the=20 present-day expression of these limitations. Millions of people = throughout=20 history have done this. That is the source of all progress, and all = cultural=20 change.

The key word is "transcend" -- which does not mean = "escape" or=20 "sublimate." Social evils such as war, rape, murder and McDonald's=20 advertisements will always fascinate, attract and secretly thrill = people. But=20 that does not mean people will always indulge themselves in war or = McDonald's=20 food. It means that "Hamlet" will be a perennial bestseller for the rest = of=20 history.

- Jed
------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C4F320.FBF24C40-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 5 10:23:43 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j05INcgo002660; Wed, 5 Jan 2005 10:23:38 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j05INai1002630; Wed, 5 Jan 2005 10:23:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 10:23:36 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2005 13:22:53 -0500 Subject: Re: Intelligent Design From: Harry Veeder To: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <002201c4f336$20f61c00$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57218 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene at jonesb9 pacbell.net wrote: > From: "Nick Palmer" > >> one example >> that has always bothered me, to whit the process of > butterfly >> metamorphosis. Inside the chrysalis, the body of the > caterpillar breaks down >> almost completely and reforms into something very > different and, on the face >> of it, more complex. I could never see that this process > could evolve in >> small steps that were evolutionarily advantageous at each > stage. > > > I hope that someone will provide a good answer for that > one... I certainly don't have it now, but will check my > collection of Richard Dawkins material later-on.... in the > mean time, it does bring to mind one very fascinating > possibility.... > Here is a another. Why aren't there any plants which have the motor ability of animals? Harry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 5 10:38:37 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j05IcOOL020403; Wed, 5 Jan 2005 10:38:24 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j05IcGlL020346; Wed, 5 Jan 2005 10:38:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 10:38:16 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: "John Steck" To: Subject: RE: Intelligent Design Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 12:37:54 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57219 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Venus fly trap? -js -----Original Message----- From: Harry Veeder [mailto:eo200 ncf.ca] Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2005 12:23 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Intelligent Design Jones Beene at jonesb9 pacbell.net wrote: > From: "Nick Palmer" > >> one example >> that has always bothered me, to whit the process of > butterfly >> metamorphosis. Inside the chrysalis, the body of the > caterpillar breaks down >> almost completely and reforms into something very > different and, on the face >> of it, more complex. I could never see that this process > could evolve in >> small steps that were evolutionarily advantageous at each > stage. > > > I hope that someone will provide a good answer for that > one... I certainly don't have it now, but will check my > collection of Richard Dawkins material later-on.... in the > mean time, it does bring to mind one very fascinating > possibility.... > Here is a another. Why aren't there any plants which have the motor ability of animals? Harry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 5 11:05:56 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j05J5POL029446; Wed, 5 Jan 2005 11:05:26 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j05J5NKi029419; Wed, 5 Jan 2005 11:05:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 11:05:23 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com Message-ID: <1ed.328b1073.2f0d9468 aol.com> Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 14:05:12 EST Subject: Re: Intelligent Design To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-----------------------------1104951912" X-Mailer: 9.0 SE for Windows sub 5005 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57220 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -------------------------------1104951912 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/5/2005 1:38:49 PM Eastern Standard Time, johnsteck tetrahelix.com writes: one example >> that has always bothered me, to whit the process of > butterfly >> metamorphosis. Inside the chrysalis, the body of the > caterpillar breaks down >> almost completely and reforms into something very > different and, on the face >> of it, more complex. I could never see that this process > could evolve in >> small steps that were evolutionarily advantageous at each > stage. What you are speaking of is a good example of evolution. The human embryo, for example, undergoes a metamorphosis in the womb. It the first stages of this metamorphosis the embryo shows evidence a gills and a fish like tail. These are artifacts of earlier an earlier stage of our evolution. Frank Z -------------------------------1104951912 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In a message dated 1/5/2005 1:38:49 PM Eastern Standard Time,=20 johnsteck tetrahelix.com writes:
<= FONT=20 style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size= =3D2>one=20 example
>> that has always bothered me, to whit the process=20 of
> butterfly
>> metamorphosis. Inside the chrysalis, the=20= body=20 of the
> caterpillar breaks down
>> almost completely and=20 reforms into something very
> different and, on the face
>>= of=20 it, more complex. I could never see that this process
> could evolve= =20 in
>> small steps that were evolutionarily advantageous at=20 each
> stage.
What you are speaking of is a good example of evolution.  The huma= n=20 embryo, for example, undergoes a metamorphosis in the womb.  It the fir= st=20 stages of this metamorphosis the embryo shows evidence a gills and a fish li= ke=20 tail.  These are artifacts of earlier an earlier stage of our=20 evolution.
 
Frank Z
-------------------------------1104951912-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 5 11:06:06 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j05J5hOL029679; Wed, 5 Jan 2005 11:05:43 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j05J5fH0029650; Wed, 5 Jan 2005 11:05:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 11:05:41 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2005 03:07:38 +0800 From: FHLew Subject: Re: WHAT'S NEW Monday, Jan 03 05 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <000c01c4f359$d28fe0e0$0201a8c0 fhlew> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_XPBQ9IHIv+Lrwm3wk81xkA)" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal X-ASG-Debug-ID: 1104952032-7486-151-1 X-Barracuda-URL: http://172.19.0.19:8000/cgi-bin/mark.cgi X-ASG-Orig-Subj: Re: WHAT'S NEW Monday, Jan 03 05 X-Virus-Scanned: by Barracuda Spam Firewall #9 at tm.net.my X-Barracuda-Spam-Score: 0.00 X-Barracuda-Spam-Status: No, SCORE=0.00 using global scores of TAG_LEVEL=1000.0 QUARANTINE_LEVEL=1000.0 KILL_LEVEL=5.5 tests=HTML_MESSAGE X-Barracuda-Spam-Report: Code version 2.64, rules version 2.1.776 Rule breakdown below pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- ------------------------------------------- 0.00 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message References: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57221 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_XPBQ9IHIv+Lrwm3wk81xkA) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable John Steck wrote: < Flawed in that we truly believe we are freely making unbiased choices = and have lordship over the influences around us. That believe exists = only through the bliss of ignorance. Consciously we do sometimes = exercise broad judgment over our impulses, unconsciously we are quite = pre-disposed to pattern behaviors and vulnerable to perception = manipulation ....> The gigantic Asian seaquake on 26, December, 2004, deep in the Pacific = Ocean lasted a colossal 200 seconds, had an epicentre magnitude of 9.0, = struck 250 km south-east of Sumatra, causing the Earth to wobble on its = axis . This earthquake has changed the World's Map, on Gaia's mantle and = Biorhythmicity - The Biological Clock. >From the archive, I dug up an old 2001 posting on " The Octave Shift " From: Maria Luisa Mazzolenis To: BIOSONICsystem yahoogroups.com Sent: = Wednesday, August 22, 2001 12:17 AM Subject: [BIOSONICsystem] more on = octave shift=20 " ..but I have to ask you again about the octave shift because I did not = understand properly. .." The Planetary influence of Pluto from 8th-23rd August 2001 had given = many of us a trying time. Those who emerged from Pluto's ordeal will = probably be vibrating to a newer octave. His or her Octave Shift is = accompanied by vast transforming changes expressed Astrologically, = Psychically and Physically.=20 In medical parlance, 1 octave shift signifies in Cochlear noise damage, = for small to moderate losses, the greatest morphological damage. This is = used in the analysis of the hearing organ. The phenomenon of " = half-octave shift " is measured between the frequency of the damaging = sound and the frequency of the greatest sensitivity loss. In Holistic Medicine, the Octave Shift signifies the activation of a = newly formed frequency octave. This frequency shift is a transformation = on many levels: 1. Cosmic 2.Planetary 3.Personal 4.Organic 5.Inorganic 6. Metallic 7.Mineral 8.Molecular 9. Atomic 10. Ionic 11. Subatomic The former life-octave is replaced by the new resonance. It does not = occur at a specific time. It is just realised. At the moment of the = shift, you see sounds, hear and feel colours and the overtones of the = higher and lower octaves of awareness. This occurs with the balancing of = the Meridial, the Chakra system and The Planetary Alignment.The familiar = yet outdated masks are released and recede into the background of consciousness. Time stands still and space is non-local - we are existing everywhere at once, in a Dimensional Shift All electromagnetic frequencies of biological processes are = bio-rhythmic. These are designated as: 1. Infracidian [ less than a day ] 2. Circadian [ about 24 Hours ] 3. Ultracidian [ more than 1 day ] More than a hundred Biological Clocks have been identified and have been discovered to have weekly, Lunar , Monthly and Yearly Cycles. = World wide studies of Biorhythmicity have demonstrated the pervasive = influence of Infracidian cycles on our physical and Mental Health and = may range from 1 day to many years. In Traditional Chinese Medicine [ = TCM ], the 24 hour cycle with reference to the 2 hourly interval between = 2 meridial channels of the 12 meridial system in Acupuncture, is called = the Horary Cycle. The Western equivalent is the Circadian Rhythm or the = Biological Clock. Central and peripheral oscillators in different body tissues [ protein = molecules ] are found to have fascinating timing mechanisms at the = cellular and molecular levels.These molecular biological clocks are = accessory chronological keepers with rhythmicities different from the = Master Biological Clock in the Suprachiasmatic Nucleus [ SCN ] of the = brain. Scientists monitor a calcium indicating photoprotein , in = transgenic plants, to determine the daily oscillations of free Calcium = levels in higher plants. These Calcium oscillations may possibly control = the temporal regulation of cellular division,metabolism,gene expression = including mental health,cancer and even Jet- Lag and are involved in the = transduction pathway in the synchronization of Light to enviromental = Day/Night or Yin/Yang Cycle. - Lew With regards Lew ----- Original Message -----=20 From: John Steck=20 To: vortex-l eskimo.com=20 Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2005 2:20 AM Subject: RE: WHAT'S NEW Monday, Jan 03 05 Flawed in that we truly believe we are freely making unbiased choices = and have lordship over the influences around us. That believe exists = only through the bliss of ignorance. Consciously we do sometimes = exercise broad judgment over our impulses, unconsciously we are quite = pre-disposed to pattern behaviors and vulnerable to perception = manipulation (hypnosis, illusions, tongue twisters, porn, smoking, White = House briefings (ha ha), etc.).=20 Sorry if I've upset your apple cart... we all would like to believe we = can somehow transcend our own personal idiosyncrasies, but even the will = to continuously try and do that is part of our learned response = conditioning. 8^) -Steck=20 -----Original Message----- From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:jedrothwell mindspring.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2005 11:27 AM To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: RE: WHAT'S NEW Monday, Jan 03 05 Let me give one more example of what I had in mind. John Steck wrote: If you become a student of human psychology you discover our sub-conscious decision making ability is severely flawed by life = long conditioning, education, and natural selection responses. It is the cornerstone of marketing and advertising. Yes, it is, but I would not call this a flaw. It is a specification, = and it does not actually limit our actions or control our behavior. = Returning to the (inadequate!) analogy to computers, these things are = the microcode controlling the central processor. The = human-mind-as-computer can still run any program you like, and it can = still emulate any other mind, but because of the way it evolved and = because of the constraints placed upon it by culture, education and so = on, it runs some programs awkwardly and slowly. People can add up a = column of numbers, and they can fly a airplane, but we are not evolved = to do these tasks, so they take a great deal of extra mental effort. We = have to bend the mind to do things it was not evolved to do. You can be = sure that birds fly using far fewer brain cells and we do, and of course = they are much better at it. As for adding numbers, we can devise living = computers made from a small network of neurons that can add far more = reliably and faster than most people do, and there have been a few = people born with an astounding ability to do mathematical computation, = the so-called "human adding machines." No doubt they have brains that = can be wired directly to perform mathematical computation, whereas the = rest of us must do it symbolically, using higher logic many layers above = the primitive arithmetic operations. In other words, no matter how limited our minds may be because of = education, culture, or inborn biology, we can always transcend the = present-day expression of these limitations. Millions of people = throughout history have done this. That is the source of all progress, = and all cultural change. The key word is "transcend" -- which does not mean "escape" or = "sublimate." Social evils such as war, rape, murder and McDonald's = advertisements will always fascinate, attract and secretly thrill = people. But that does not mean people will always indulge themselves in = war or McDonald's food. It means that "Hamlet" will be a perennial = bestseller for the rest of history. - Jed --Boundary_(ID_XPBQ9IHIv+Lrwm3wk81xkA) Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
John Steck  wrote:
 
< Flawed in that we truly believe we are freely making unbiased choices and have lordship over the influences around us.  That believe exists only through the bliss of ignorance.  Consciously we do sometimes exercise broad judgment over our impulses, unconsciously we are quite pre-disposed to pattern behaviors and vulnerable to perception manipulation ....>
 

The gigantic Asian seaquake on 26, December, 2004, deep in the Pacific Ocean lasted a colossal 200 seconds, had an epicentre magnitude of 9.0, struck 250 km south-east of Sumatra, causing the Earth to wobble on its axis . This earthquake has changed the World's Map, on Gaia's mantle and Biorhythmicity - The Biological Clock.

From the archive, I dug up an old 2001 posting on " The Octave Shift "

From: Maria Luisa Mazzolenis To: BIOSONICsystem yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2001 12:17 AM Subject: [BIOSONICsystem] more on octave shift

" ..but I have to ask you again about the octave shift because I did not understand properly. .."

The Planetary influence of Pluto from 8th-23rd August 2001 had given many of us a trying time. Those who emerged from Pluto's ordeal will probably be vibrating to a newer octave. His or her Octave Shift is accompanied by vast transforming changes expressed Astrologically, Psychically and Physically.
 In medical parlance, 1 octave shift signifies in Cochlear noise damage, for small to moderate losses, the greatest morphological damage. This is used in the analysis of the hearing organ. The phenomenon of " half-octave shift " is measured between the frequency of the damaging sound and the frequency of the greatest sensitivity loss.

In Holistic Medicine, the Octave Shift  signifies the activation of a newly formed frequency octave. This frequency shift is a transformation on many levels:

1. Cosmic

2.Planetary

3.Personal

4.Organic

5.Inorganic

6. Metallic

7.Mineral

8.Molecular

9. Atomic

10. Ionic

11. Subatomic

The former life-octave is replaced by the new resonance. It does not occur at a specific time. It is just realised. At the moment of the shift, you see sounds, hear and feel colours and the overtones of the higher and lower octaves of awareness. This occurs with the balancing of the Meridial, the Chakra system and The Planetary Alignment.The familiar yet outdated masks are released
and recede into the background of consciousness.
Time stands still and space is non-local
- we are existing everywhere at once, in a Dimensional Shift

All electromagnetic frequencies of biological processes are bio-rhythmic. These are designated as:

1. Infracidian [ less than a day ]

2. Circadian [ about 24 Hours ]

3. Ultracidian [ more than 1 day ]

More than a hundred Biological Clocks have been identified and

have been discovered to have weekly, Lunar , Monthly and Yearly Cycles. World wide studies of Biorhythmicity have demonstrated the pervasive influence of Infracidian cycles on our physical and Mental Health and may range from 1 day to many years. In Traditional Chinese Medicine [ TCM ], the 24 hour cycle with reference to the 2 hourly interval between 2 meridial channels of the 12 meridial system in Acupuncture, is called the Horary Cycle. The Western equivalent is the Circadian Rhythm or the Biological Clock.

Central and peripheral oscillators in different body tissues [ protein molecules ] are found to have fascinating timing mechanisms at the cellular and molecular levels.These molecular biological clocks are accessory chronological keepers with rhythmicities different from the Master Biological Clock in the Suprachiasmatic Nucleus [ SCN ] of the brain. Scientists monitor a calcium indicating photoprotein , in transgenic plants, to determine the daily oscillations of free Calcium levels in higher plants. These Calcium oscillations may possibly control the temporal regulation of cellular division,metabolism,gene expression including mental health,cancer and even Jet- Lag and are involved in the transduction pathway in the synchronization of Light to enviromental Day/Night or Yin/Yang Cycle. - Lew

 

With regards

Lew

----- Original Message -----
From: John Steck
Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2005 2:20 AM
Subject: RE: WHAT'S NEW Monday, Jan 03 05

Flawed in that we truly believe we are freely making unbiased choices and have lordship over the influences around us.  That believe exists only through the bliss of ignorance.  Consciously we do sometimes exercise broad judgment over our impulses, unconsciously we are quite pre-disposed to pattern behaviors and vulnerable to perception manipulation (hypnosis, illusions, tongue twisters, porn, smoking, White House briefings (ha ha), etc.). 
 
Sorry if I've upset your apple cart... we all would like to believe we can somehow transcend our own personal idiosyncrasies, but even the will to continuously try and do that is part of our learned response conditioning.  8^)
 
-Steck 
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:jedrothwell mindspring.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2005 11:27 AM
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
Subject: RE: WHAT'S NEW Monday, Jan 03 05

Let me give one more example of what I had in mind. John Steck wrote:

If you become a student of human psychology you discover our
sub-conscious decision making ability is severely flawed by life long
conditioning, education, and natural selection responses.  It is the
cornerstone of marketing and advertising.

Yes, it is, but I would not call this a flaw. It is a specification, and it does not actually limit our actions or control our behavior. Returning to the (inadequate!) analogy to computers, these things are the microcode controlling the central processor. The human-mind-as-computer can still run any program you like, and it can still emulate any other mind, but because of the way it evolved and because of the constraints placed upon it by culture, education and so on, it runs some programs awkwardly and slowly. People can add up a column of numbers, and they can fly a airplane, but we are not evolved to do these tasks, so they take a great deal of extra mental effort. We have to bend the mind to do things it was not evolved to do. You can be sure that birds fly using far fewer brain cells and we do, and of course they are much better at it. As for adding numbers, we can devise living computers made from a small network of neurons that can add far more reliably and faster than most people do, and there have been a few people born with an astounding ability to do mathematical computation, the so-called "human adding machines." No doubt they have brains that can be wired directly to perform mathematical computation, whereas the rest of us must do it symbolically, using higher logic many layers above the primitive arithmetic operations.

In other words, no matter how limited our minds may be because of education, culture, or inborn biology, we can always transcend the present-day expression of these limitations. Millions of people throughout history have done this. That is the source of all progress, and all cultural change.

The key word is "transcend" -- which does not mean "escape" or "sublimate." Social evils such as war, rape, murder and McDonald's advertisements will always fascinate, attract and secretly thrill people. But that does not mean people will always indulge themselves in war or McDonald's food. It means that "Hamlet" will be a perennial bestseller for the rest of history.

- Jed
--Boundary_(ID_XPBQ9IHIv+Lrwm3wk81xkA)-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 5 11:20:08 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j05JJxOL003668; Wed, 5 Jan 2005 11:19:59 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j05JJso4003631; Wed, 5 Jan 2005 11:19:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 11:19:54 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com Message-ID: Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 14:19:41 EST Subject: tired of religion creeping into govt. and science. To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-----------------------------1104952781" X-Mailer: 9.0 SE for Windows sub 5005 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57222 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -------------------------------1104952781 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Take a stand. Contribute to Tsami relief through this org. Humanists Support Tsunami Disaster Relief Efforts We at the American Humanist Association have received an outpouring of interest from our membership to provide a method for individuals to give as Humanists to the tsunami relief efforts. In response to this call for action, we have partnered with the Atheist Centre in India through our international body, the International Humanist and Ethical Union. The Atheist Centre manages Arthik Samata Mandal, an established disaster relief organization that has been active since 1977. This organization already has the required Indian Government approval to receive overseas aid funds, which it will use to address both short-term rehabilitation and long-term reconstruction needs of tsunami victims. Programs are being designed in cooperation with the affected communities aimed at addressing health, food security, habitat, and livelihood needs. In the longer term, the Centre will work toward reconstruction and reduction of vulnerability. Tens of thousands perished in the tsunami and even more are at imminent risk of disease. And the lives and livelihoods of still more have been shattered. As Humanists concerned for the wellbeing of all, we wish to express Humanism's compassion for the survivors who have experienced such lost. HERE'S HOW YOU CAN HELP The American Humanist Association is making it possible for 100% of your donation to reach our overseas partners--we're absorbing all the various processing and transfer costs. If you wish to participate in this program, you can donate online through the AHA's secure website: https://www.americanhumanist.org/secure/disaster.html _________________________________________________________________ You received this message as a subscriber on the list: aha npogroups.org To be removed from the list, send any message to: aha-unsubscribe npogroups.org For all list information and functions, including changing your subscription mode and options, visit the Web page: http://npogroups.org/lists/info/aha -------------------------------1104952781 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Take a stand.  Contribute to Tsami relief through this org.
 
Humanists Support Tsunami Disaster Relief Efforts

We at the Amer= ican=20 Humanist Association have received an outpouring of
interest from our=20 membership to provide a method for individuals to give as
Humanists to th= e=20 tsunami relief efforts. In response to this call for
action, we have=20 partnered with the Atheist Centre in India through our
international body= ,=20 the International Humanist and Ethical Union.

The Atheist Centre mana= ges=20 Arthik Samata Mandal, an established disaster
relief organization that ha= s=20 been active since 1977. This organization
already has the required Indian= =20 Government approval to receive overseas aid
funds, which it will use to=20 address both short-term rehabilitation and
long-term reconstruction needs= of=20 tsunami victims.

Programs are being designed in cooperation with the=20 affected communities
aimed at addressing health, food security, habitat,=20= and=20 livelihood needs. In
the longer term, the Centre will work toward=20 reconstruction and reduction of
vulnerability.

Tens of thousands=20 perished in the tsunami and even more are at imminent risk
of disease. An= d=20 the lives and livelihoods of still more have been shattered.
As Humanists= =20 concerned for the wellbeing of all, we wish to express Humanism's compassion= for=20 the survivors who have experienced such lost.

HERE'S HOW YOU CAN=20 HELP

The American Humanist Association is making it possible for 100%= of=20 your
donation to reach our overseas partners--we're absorbing all the=20 various
processing and transfer costs. If you wish to participate in this= =20 program,
you can donate online through the AHA's secure=20 website:
https://www.americanhumanist.org/secure/disaster.html
_______= __________________________________________________________
You=20 received this message as a subscriber on the list:
    =20 aha npogroups.org
To be removed from the list, send any message to:
&n= bsp;=20    aha-unsubscribe npogroups.org

For all list information a= nd=20 functions, including changing
your subscription mode and options, visit t= he=20 Web page:
    =20 http://npogroups.org/lists/info/aha
 -------------------------------1104952781-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 5 11:33:25 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j05JXDOL007759; Wed, 5 Jan 2005 11:33:13 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j05JXBjI007734; Wed, 5 Jan 2005 11:33:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 11:33:11 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2005 14:32:00 -0500 Subject: Re: Intelligent Design From: Harry Veeder To: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <8bNX_C.A.y4B.3DE3BB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57223 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: One? Perhaps there a few more examples. But why so few? Why are there no walking plants? Plants and animals both evolved from single celled organisms. Is there something about the first plant cells that prevented them from evolving the motor abilities of their animal cousins. Were the evolutionary possibilities of plants and animals limited by those first cells? Just wondering, Harry John Steck at johnsteck tetrahelix.com wrote: > Venus fly trap? -js >> Why aren't there any plants which have the motor ability of animals? >> >> Harry > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 5 11:56:56 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j05Jumgo023562; Wed, 5 Jan 2005 11:56:48 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j05JukJR023545; Wed, 5 Jan 2005 11:56:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 11:56:46 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050105195450.006c435c pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2005 19:54:50 +0000 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Intelligent Design Resent-Message-ID: <-2Rn7D.A.xvF.-ZE3BB ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57224 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 01:22 pm 05-01-05 -0500, you wrote: >Jones Beene at jonesb9 pacbell.net wrote: > >> From: "Nick Palmer" >> >>> one example >>> that has always bothered me, to whit the process of >> butterfly >>> metamorphosis. Inside the chrysalis, the body of the >> caterpillar breaks down >>> almost completely and reforms into something very >> different and, on the face >>> of it, more complex. I could never see that this process >> could evolve in >>> small steps that were evolutionarily advantageous at each >> stage. >> >> >> I hope that someone will provide a good answer for that >> one... I certainly don't have it now, but will check my >> collection of Richard Dawkins material later-on.... in the >> mean time, it does bring to mind one very fascinating >> possibility.... >> > >Here is a another. >Why aren't there any plants which have the motor ability of animals? > >Harry Aren't you forgetting the Triffids? ;-) G. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 5 12:14:04 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j05KDogo027395; Wed, 5 Jan 2005 12:13:59 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j05KDnDK027380; Wed, 5 Jan 2005 12:13:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 12:13:49 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=S3IBXngRJ+7dG7Bmn8UYUOf+C47W/i1Zyw6TGnJ944XeggiI2OIVM5g3cHMNUi9ElMV8nfQWlPaJE10VywFY7hk2BCxlBQ0j969fHEIWZYyJ1xkRDp5x/epj+W81/Mt6loC6eDniis2nSOhzMRJhLTtkN9k+soPEzWx6KXSdPTQ= Message-ID: Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 13:13:46 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Intelligent Design In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.20050105195450.006c435c pop.freeserve.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <2.2.32.20050105195450.006c435c pop.freeserve.net> Resent-Message-ID: <_3WNJD.A.wrG.9pE3BB ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57225 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: well yes. the plant cells gained energy from the sun and dyes, the animal like cells fed on sugars and other cells, thus those that had methods of movement fared better. plants still have CELLULAR MOVEMENT. as for intelligent design. i dont doubt the possibility. BUT ITS NOT SCIENTIFIC. its unprovable. and even if an almighty guided it, would we be able to tell? there would have to be SOME mechanism at work. even if that mechanism is chance. a temporary altering of the probabilities of things combining. for the cillia, no, the CURRENT proteins did nothing, and the motor didnt work with out a single one. but there are other earlier versions not as complex, but also not as efficient. as for the chrysalis, like so many things, you have to go WAAAAAYYYY back to the early invertabrates. change of form from child to adult began then, and became slowly more complex. there is fossil and amber records of SOME of this, but most of it is inference. On Wed, 05 Jan 2005 19:54:50 +0000, Grimer wrote: > At 01:22 pm 05-01-05 -0500, you wrote: > >Jones Beene at jonesb9 pacbell.net wrote: > > > >> From: "Nick Palmer" > >> > >>> one example > >>> that has always bothered me, to whit the process of > >> butterfly > >>> metamorphosis. Inside the chrysalis, the body of the > >> caterpillar breaks down > >>> almost completely and reforms into something very > >> different and, on the face > >>> of it, more complex. I could never see that this process > >> could evolve in > >>> small steps that were evolutionarily advantageous at each > >> stage. > >> > >> > >> I hope that someone will provide a good answer for that > >> one... I certainly don't have it now, but will check my > >> collection of Richard Dawkins material later-on.... in the > >> mean time, it does bring to mind one very fascinating > >> possibility.... > >> > > > >Here is a another. > >Why aren't there any plants which have the motor ability of animals? > > > >Harry > > Aren't you forgetting the Triffids? ;-) > > G. > > -- Fairy tales are more than true: not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten. -G.K. Chesterton From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 5 12:59:37 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j05KxUgo005025; Wed, 5 Jan 2005 12:59:30 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j05KxSld005011; Wed, 5 Jan 2005 12:59:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 12:59:28 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <41DC5575.9000700 ix.netcom.com> Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2005 14:00:37 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: WHAT'S NEW Monday, Jan 03 05 References: <001801c4f2af$81db5490$c828010a arghou.argcorp.argworldwide.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050105111347.02a52be0@pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050105111347.02a52be0 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57226 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > John Steck wrote: > >> I do not think that conclusion precludes fatalism however. Our future is >> not written in stone somewhere. We exercise free will, but it would be >> naive to think we are not largely predictable because of severe influences >> past and present. > > > This strikes me as a false dichotomy. We can be completely bounded by > influences and yet also have free will. Of course, the free will would have to be only within the particular set of limitations. Some people have a larger set of limitations than others, hence have less free will. The issue is magnitude, not the presence or absence of free will. While I hesitate to compare > people to computers, an analogy does come to mind. Computers are 100% > predictable, No, they are not. People are finding that the more complex the computer, the less predictable the results. In fact, some computers can only be checked using other computers to determine if the result is correct. and of course they are completely bounded by a small set of > rules, Not any more. Increasingly, computers are asked to generate their own rules. Of course, you can say that the rule to "generate your own rule" is the limiting rule, hence is the basic boundary. However, I think this approach trivializes the argument. but that does not limit the number and variety of programs a > computer can run. The set of programs is infinitely large, and as varied > as the programmer's imagination. Programs are already the most complex > structures ever devised by people, and there is no reason to think they > could not be made far more complex, rivaling DNA and cells in complexity > and the number of instructions. When this happens, I expect we will see computer insanity, just as was described in the movie "2001". In other words, computers will act just like humans. At that point, religion will have to readjust its attitude toward humans being the sons of God. > > (I am not suggesting that people are 100% predictable or bounded by a > small set of rules.) > > People are domesticated primates -- like pet capuchin monkeys. They are > as bound and limited by biology and primate psychology as chimpanzees or > any other primates. People will never escape, outgrow or transcend these > limitations for even one second, any more than a bat can voluntarily > stop echolocation, or a plant can stop photosynthesis. Edwin Wilson, > with whom I seldom disagree, once described human biophilia for certain > landscapes: > > ". . . people want to be on the height looking down; they prefer open, > savanna like terrain with scattered trees and copses; they want to be > near a body of water, such as a river or lake, or oceanfront. . . . > People want to be in the environments in which our species evolved over > millions of years. That is, hidden in a copse or rock wall, looking out > over savanna and transitional woodland at acacia and similar dominant > trees of the African environment. And, why not? Is that such a strange > idea? Let me tell you that all mobile animals, down to the very > simplest, with tiny brains, have what we call habitat selection, innate > habitat selection. They have elaborate algorithms, searching for the > right microenvironment -- the right spot to settle -- and hunt, or live > and nest. This is a universal trait. Why then, would it be such a > strange thing to find at least a residue of humanity's long, long > evolutionary history. . ." Of course humans and all life seeks that environment in which it can survive. Humans need water and the ability to see danger. It is trivial to suggest this is an ancestral memory. I like the mountains, my wife likes the ocean. Does this mean that we evolved from different places? > > - "The Coming Synergism between Science and the Humanities," lecture > given at the University of California, San Diego, broadcast on UCTV > > I agree with everything up to the last sentence. What we see is not a > "residue" but the living, continuing, embodiment of these traits and > this evolutionary history. It is as much a part of our present makeup as > our metabolism -- and just as vital to us. These traits have as much > power over us today as they did millions of years ago. They will > *always* have this power. But here is the point -- or the escape clause, > if you will: among those traits are free will and creative thinking. We > have free will. So do chimpanzees. I think all mammals do. We also have > hands, and tools, and these give us an outlet for creative thinking and > action. It opens up an infinite variety of possibilities, both good and > evil. A computer is a general purpose logic machine -- it is a universal > Turing machine that can, in principle, perform any operation that any > other Turing machine can do. Free will, imagination plus hands (or feet, > actually -- our most unique appendages) make us general-purpose > creativity machines. I suspect we are capable of achieving anything that > any carbon based life form on any planet can achieve. > > As I said in the book: "Ever since we invented tools and began to shape > our own environment, we have shaped our own destiny." I was thinking of > the opening scenes in the movie "2001" although I do not believe we were > tutored by another species. Children recapitulate our tool-making > accomplishments so readily I am sure the skill is inborn and > instinctual, like the beaver's ability to make a dam. I suggest a very important condition is being overlooked. It is possible for the human mind to transcend the limitations imposed by nature and experience. This is called "enlightenment" by the Buddhists. Such people have true free will because they see the boundaries, which are invisible to most people, and can choose to go beyond. Without this ability, any discussion on this subject is always distracted by personal issues. Regards, Ed > > - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 5 13:50:22 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j05LoFgo016076; Wed, 5 Jan 2005 13:50:16 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j05LoF8H016069; Wed, 5 Jan 2005 13:50:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 13:50:15 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: <8a284fac-1539-41d5-862b-aedc2eaaa704> Message-ID: <00ff01c4f370$83ffc280$d657ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: Subject: Re: Intelligent Design Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 16:39:18 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: <2aKJSB.A.B7D.WEG3BB ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57227 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Harry Veeder wrote: > Here is a another. > Why aren't there any plants which have the motor ability of animals? There is a counter example, a single celled organism called Euglena, which has self-mobility and carries chloroplasts, so it is both plant and animal. Mobility carries a large energy demand, which is not supplied by photosynthesis. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 5 13:50:37 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j05LoLOL018629; Wed, 5 Jan 2005 13:50:21 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j05LoIml018615; Wed, 5 Jan 2005 13:50:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 13:50:18 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: <8a284fac-1539-41d5-862b-aedc2eaaa704> Message-ID: <00fe01c4f370$83bf5e20$d657ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <2.2.32.20050104184641.00970148 pop.freeserve.net> <6.2.0.14.2.20050104152832.02aa36b0@pop.mindspring.com> <00c601c4f2ad$6ed2a8a0$d657ccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <003e01c4f317$2b42ec20$0500a8c0@nixlaptop> Subject: Re: Intelligent Design Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 16:31:15 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57228 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Nick Palmer wrote: However, I posted one example > that has always bothered me, to whit the process of butterfly > metamorphosis. Inside the chrysalis, the body of the caterpillar breaks down > almost completely and reforms into something very different and, on the face > of it, more complex. I could never see that this process could evolve in > small steps that were evolutionarily advantageous at each stage. The only > response I got was hand waving from some boy wonder science geek who said > that evolution has been proved as a theory therefore metamorphosis must have > evolved (without actually suggesting how)! For the butterfly and similar cases, my understanding is that there are essentially two organisms. The cells of the adult stage exist within the body of the catepillar stage. When the metamorphosis takes place, essentially the catepillar stage dies and its body dissolves, providing nutrients for the formerly dormant cells of the adult stage to grow. How this 'evolves' is as much of a puzzle as the symbiosis of specific insects and specific orchids, which grow features in their blooms resembling the females of the insect species and generate scents similar to the pherenomes of the females. The deluded males, in trying to mate with the orchids, pollinate in the process. How these two members of different kingdoms develop this symbiosis defies easy 'explanation'. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 5 14:10:09 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j05MA2go020356; Wed, 5 Jan 2005 14:10:03 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j05MA10m020342; Wed, 5 Jan 2005 14:10:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 14:10:01 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050105170256.02a51b60 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2005 17:09:41 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: WHAT'S NEW Monday, Jan 03 05 In-Reply-To: <41DC5575.9000700 ix.netcom.com> References: <001801c4f2af$81db5490$c828010a arghou.argcorp.argworldwide.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050105111347.02a52be0 pop.mindspring.com> <41DC5575.9000700 ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_646859==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: <3x8YVB.A.y9E.5WG3BB ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57229 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_646859==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Edmund Storms wrote: >and of course they are completely bounded by a small set of >>rules, > >Not any more. I meant they are bounded by the CPU instruction set, which is still small, and will probably remain small. (I hope.) >Of course humans and all life seeks that environment in which it can >survive. Humans need water and the ability to see danger. It is trivial >to suggest this is an ancestral memory. I like the mountains, my wife >likes the ocean. Does this mean that we evolved from different places? No, both locations fit Wilson's criteria. In fact he listed both. He derived these criteria independently but as he pointed out, real estate agents have known about them forever. Land prices are governed by them. Of course not all people everywhere fit the pattern. Any generalization about biology is bound to have many exceptions. - Jed --=====================_646859==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Edmund Storms wrote:

and of course they are completely bounded by a small set of
rules,

Not any more.

I meant they are bounded by the CPU instruction set, which is still small, and will probably remain small. (I hope.)


Of course humans and all life seeks that environment in which it can survive. Humans need water and the ability to see danger.  It is trivial to suggest this is an ancestral memory.  I like the mountains, my wife likes the ocean. Does this mean that we evolved from different places?

No, both locations fit Wilson's criteria. In fact he listed both. He derived these criteria independently but as he pointed out, real estate agents have known about them forever. Land prices are governed by them. Of course not all people everywhere fit the pattern. Any generalization about biology is bound to have many exceptions.

- Jed
--=====================_646859==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 5 14:40:15 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j05MeAgo026314; Wed, 5 Jan 2005 14:40:11 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j05Me96D026301; Wed, 5 Jan 2005 14:40:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 14:40:09 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2005 17:39:37 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: Intelligent Design In-reply-to: <00ff01c4f370$83ffc280$d657ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57230 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mike Carrell wrote: > Harry Veeder wrote: > >> Here is a another. >> Why aren't there any plants which have the motor ability of animals? > > There is a counter example, a single celled organism called Euglena, which > has self-mobility and carries chloroplasts, so it is both plant and animal. > > Mobility carries a large energy demand, which is not supplied by > photosynthesis. > What supplies the Euglena with the energy for self mobility? Harry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 5 14:49:39 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j05MnROL002255; Wed, 5 Jan 2005 14:49:28 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j05MnQ8Z002243; Wed, 5 Jan 2005 14:49:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 14:49:26 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=B6ZtyOURs9H/KP8kbGlh2kOph+AHvOjQVpWuKPuyW7Heh76HL4W4wpzxQk9ZnRYljHdnaoevyRlJBtaGeoJToMabW80kVAddcakqtU0W2QeLUEpdN9TM7owN+hYxOjZ5dGpPq+BSrT1D1iNDOIxW/mXcwpQZV4EwsnHd2wgGnU4= Message-ID: Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 15:49:22 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Intelligent Design In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <00ff01c4f370$83ffc280$d657ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> Resent-Message-ID: <-Pgv1.A._i.27G3BB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57231 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: its also a predator On Wed, 05 Jan 2005 17:39:37 -0500, Harry Veeder wrote: > > > > Mike Carrell wrote: > > > Harry Veeder wrote: > > > >> Here is a another. > >> Why aren't there any plants which have the motor ability of animals? > > > > There is a counter example, a single celled organism called Euglena, which > > has self-mobility and carries chloroplasts, so it is both plant and animal. > > > > Mobility carries a large energy demand, which is not supplied by > > photosynthesis. > > > > What supplies the Euglena with the energy for self mobility? > > Harry > > -- Fairy tales are more than true: not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten. -G.K. Chesterton From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 5 17:25:35 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j061PSuE000920; Wed, 5 Jan 2005 17:25:29 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j061PRgX000905; Wed, 5 Jan 2005 17:25:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 17:25:27 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=Nrts/VgMjyPNpMxUFjrhDQoLuR6sy1xdoXjonvzemHm2gpYBDFMlhxmq7ZC+XDpj6jRCf3EAZj5jca5nozl04mOAH4/+oJfsWKuMD9CL/9vKVQn8ZKMz/LZXRVw+itGGsf8fl15LeqPu1Xzc9JwcujlNeJ/5ED0zU7B/xztjNSs= ; Message-ID: <20050106012517.94495.qmail web51706.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 17:25:17 -0800 (PST) From: Terry Blanton Subject: Re: Intelligent Design To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <00fe01c4f370$83bf5e20$d657ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57232 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- Mike Carrell wrote: > The cells of the adult > stage exist within the > body of the catepillar stage. So, it could be that there were actually *two* creatures initially, in a symbiotic or parasitic relationship. Or, maybe more like a creature which invades and gestates in the gut of another, a la "Alien". (Sigorney is hot -- even bald!) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 5 20:38:34 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j064cP2H014253; Wed, 5 Jan 2005 20:38:26 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j064cNg8014244; Wed, 5 Jan 2005 20:38:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 20:38:23 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <004001c4f3a9$8b32c780$3c027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: intelligent design Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 22:37:38 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_003C_01C4F377.292AB8E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: $ X-Spam-Status: No, hits=1.8 required=4.0 tests=HTML_30_40,HTML_MESSAGE, SARE_OEM_OBFU autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57233 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003C_01C4F377.292AB8E0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_003D_01C4F377.292AB8E0" ------=_NextPart_001_003D_01C4F377.292AB8E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankI have seldom enjoyed a discussion like this thread has produced. Computers>>> There is an effort underway to produce a system of = "quadratic computing" that will be the step beyond parallel computing. = The complexities of writing the siftware may seem impossible to = overcome.. BUT.. they will be overcome. Quadratic computing will address the needs = of future mathematics. Evolution>>> evidence of the past demonstrate humankind had a higher = level of intelligence than we offer in Hollywood movies of " cavemen". = Man went into caves later.. they didn't come out of caves later. Man wasn't degenerate in early times, neither were they neanderthals. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_003D_01C4F377.292AB8E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
I have seldom enjoyed a discussion like this = thread has=20 produced.
 
Computers>>>  There is an effort = underway=20 to produce a system of "quadratic computing" that will be the step = beyond=20 parallel computing. The complexities of writing the siftware may seem = impossible=20 to overcome..
BUT.. they will be overcome. Quadratic = computing will=20 address the needs of future mathematics.
 
Evolution>>>  evidence of the = past=20 demonstrate humankind had a higher level of intelligence than we offer = in=20 Hollywood movies of " cavemen". Man went into caves later.. they didn't = come out=20 of caves later.
Man wasn't degenerate in early times, neither = were they=20 neanderthals.
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_003D_01C4F377.292AB8E0-- ------=_NextPart_000_003C_01C4F377.292AB8E0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <003b01c4f3a9$73ba7a80$3c027841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_003C_01C4F377.292AB8E0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 6 02:50:02 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j06AnxNr023939; Thu, 6 Jan 2005 02:49:59 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j06AnvnH023928; Thu, 6 Jan 2005 02:49:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 02:49:57 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=lB1YVDCgQ2PgHjFraG44qZuzy+w2Yo1i8ofA6l1WCRZNbMVGwGmcOfowyvzh/ISBfUpQ2SwH+xOfeoPmhFALc12meIw/3LFG44Wjp2N/9GQI9ov8yC8bBNGAcQ3leKTXXMO0cqk6IkoFbDwXU5E0eKmMWIZJS8T7yCa5fShmTmE= ; Message-ID: <20050106104951.92572.qmail web60305.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 02:49:13 -0800 (PST) From: Nick Reiter Subject: Cathode plasma experiments report posted To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <20050106012517.94495.qmail web51706.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57234 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear all, At long last, the paper describing our experiments in plasma electrolysis since this past August has now been finished and posted. My son uploaded it last night onto Sam Faile's website: http://www.geocities.com/spfaile/plasma/Plasma.html Only one format erratum for now - the spaces in some tabular data in the original Word doc didn't come through in html, so when you get to the italicized excerpts from the lab notes in two spots, they are scrunched to one side. Will have that fixed soon. Enjoy. NR __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 6 06:31:55 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j06EVjT7032066; Thu, 6 Jan 2005 06:31:46 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j06EVh6x032053; Thu, 6 Jan 2005 06:31:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 06:31:43 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001a01c4f3fb$dada58a0$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <20050106104951.92572.qmail web60305.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Cathode plasma experiments report posted Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 06:27:29 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57235 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Nick, This is really provocative work, and like almost all experiments done in LENR, it presents more unanswered questions than can be easily addressed without recourse to a large staff and larger budget. The work should inspire anyone with a low budget and some creativity, however, as there are a number of ways to contribute to this line of inquiry by just following up on your results. You are bordering on the crossover area between the hydrino work of Mills and the work of Mizuno, where there is definitely excess heat. I am actually glad that you didn't pursue the excess heat thing too greatly, as it can be a distraction - all we need in one more finding of excess heat to go go with the several hundred which are already out there. That photo "J" is indicative of the eerie pinkish purple color which is associated with the Mizuno OU regime. What is needed now - more so than additional excess heat findings - is some indication of "other" physical changes taking place which can be investigated... and you have accomplished a first step in this regard. (I hope you did not discard that "mopped-up" electrolyte) If you or anyone else is considering more work along these lines, here is a thought. About 2/3 of the way throught the document, you say, "We also observed, using the light water solution and light water solution "doped" with D2O, a potentially interesting phenomenon. Periodically during the steady state glow discharge, a short lived "bright burst" would occur on the cathode, where the intensity of the plasma would flare up momentarily, and the overall color of the glow region would shift from the typical violet toward a pinkish or lighter violet hue. The frequency of the bright bursts was about once per 20 to 30 seconds. On several occasions, we observed a corresponding momentary jump in Geiger counter cpm, but not for all or even most such events." Now I imagine that if Robin is listening, he is going to opine that what you were seeing is related to a build-up of hydrinos/deuterinos. If this is true, it is just one more reason why anyone in LENR work should try to use Mills' insight if it can help - forget the rivalry B.S. - but advance Mills along different lines. IOW Mills himself is missing a golden opportunity by not experimenting with D2O and with mixes of H2O and D2O in electrolytic glow discharges. Further evidence of what could be an unusual phenomenon taking place in the D20, if it contains manufactured deuterinos after electrolysis, could be after the explosion, when you state in " mopping up the K2CO3:D2O solution from the floor and bench top, an unusual property was noted, that did not seem to be present with light water solutions. The heavy solution resisted absorption into cloth or paper towels to an uncanny degree. While the viscosity of both heavy and light K2CO3 solution batches appeared to be similar (very slightly syrupy) the reluctance to wicking was not. " Now, just thinking out loud, this the change in properties of the solution could be mundane OR it could be pointing to a potentially valuable discovery... if for instance deuterinos are forming more rapidly than hydrinos under the same circumstances and then binding to form the corresponding ionic quasi-compounds (prepolymers) with the potassium, then it is those new compounds which could be responsible for changes. They should be pre-polymer-like because they should have exceeding large van der waals forces between agglomerations. This would be especailly true in the magnetized version or when striiring with a magnetic stirrer. Deuterinos are at a geometry where van der waals forces could be a factor of eight times (minimum) greater than with normal ionic prepolymers. It might be interesting to try to "manufacture" a supply of this non-absorbing syrup, even dry it out for use in other work. Maybe the same effect will show up with light water after a much longer period of electrolysis. One could try much stronger magnets, for instance. It might also be interesting to try as a cathode a hollow syringe needle. Why? well if this is hydrino-related then finding a proper ion density is a critical parameter and probably one reason that the thicker cathodes do not work as well as thin. The hollow cavity might be a geometry that would be benficial. IOW there are now far more questions begging to be answered, and possible routes to pursue. Good luck. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 6 06:37:34 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j06EbVNr026995; Thu, 6 Jan 2005 06:37:31 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j06EbTfC026989; Thu, 6 Jan 2005 06:37:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 06:37:29 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001f01c4f3fd$2ba007c0$6601a8c0 msns.flt.ptd.net> From: "revtec" To: References: <004001c4f3a9$8b32c780$3c027841 xptower> Subject: Re: intelligent design Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 09:36:52 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001B_01C4F3D3.410DF7E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57236 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C4F3D3.410DF7E0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_001C_01C4F3D3.410DF7E0" ------=_NextPart_001_001C_01C4F3D3.410DF7E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankI think you coined a new term. For computers of that speed and = complexity they should call it "siftware". Regarding the question of whether modern man is more or less physically = advanced than his ancestors, we must factor in technology, our recent = knowledge of nutrition, and recent access to a variety of good food. We = may only appear to be more robust than our ancestors. If these recent = developments are factored in, we may find that we are devolving rather = than evolving, and that the gene pool in general is in regression. Jeff ----- Original Message -----=20 From: RC Macaulay=20 To: vortex-l eskimo.com=20 Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2005 11:37 PM Subject: Re: intelligent design I have seldom enjoyed a discussion like this thread has produced. Computers>>> There is an effort underway to produce a system of = "quadratic computing" that will be the step beyond parallel computing. = The complexities of writing the siftware may seem impossible to = overcome.. BUT.. they will be overcome. Quadratic computing will address the = needs of future mathematics. Evolution>>> evidence of the past demonstrate humankind had a higher = level of intelligence than we offer in Hollywood movies of " cavemen". = Man went into caves later.. they didn't come out of caves later. Man wasn't degenerate in early times, neither were they neanderthals. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_001C_01C4F3D3.410DF7E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
I think you coined a new term.  For computers of that speed = and=20 complexity they should call it "siftware".
 
Regarding the question of whether modern man is more or less = physically=20 advanced than his ancestors, we must factor in technology, our = recent=20 knowledge of nutrition, and recent access to a variety of good = food.  We=20 may only appear to be more robust than our ancestors.  If = these=20 recent developments are factored in, we may find that we are = devolving=20 rather than evolving, and that the gene pool in general is in = regression.
 
Jeff
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 RC = Macaulay=20
Sent: Wednesday, January 05, = 2005 11:37=20 PM
Subject: Re: intelligent = design

I have seldom enjoyed a discussion like this = thread=20 has produced.
 
Computers>>>  There is an = effort=20 underway to produce a system of "quadratic computing" that will be the = step=20 beyond parallel computing. The complexities of writing the siftware = may seem=20 impossible to overcome..
BUT.. they will be overcome. Quadratic = computing will=20 address the needs of future mathematics.
 
Evolution>>>  evidence of the = past=20 demonstrate humankind had a higher level of intelligence than we offer = in=20 Hollywood movies of " cavemen". Man went into caves later.. they = didn't come=20 out of caves later.
Man wasn't degenerate in early times, = neither were=20 they neanderthals.
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_001C_01C4F3D3.410DF7E0-- ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C4F3D3.410DF7E0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <001a01c4f3fd$29d33700$6601a8c0 msns.flt.ptd.net> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C4F3D3.410DF7E0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 6 08:40:49 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j06GefNr029416; Thu, 6 Jan 2005 08:40:41 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j06GedKo029375; Thu, 6 Jan 2005 08:40:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 08:40:39 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050106084259.02806e78 mail.dlsi.net> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2005 08:45:05 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: come to Minnesota In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57237 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I may be able to help. Please give them my number. Steve (310) 721.5919 At 01:17 PM 1/3/2005, you wrote: >Fellow Vortexians; > >Rumor has it that the University of Minnesota is looking for a cold fusion >researcher. Dr. Orimi (sp), emeritus mechanical engineering has published >several papers which are archived on the LENR site. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 6 15:22:49 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j06NMbJt017599; Thu, 6 Jan 2005 15:22:41 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j06NMENm017488; Thu, 6 Jan 2005 15:22:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 15:22:14 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050106152552.02762bc0 mail.dlsi.net> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2005 15:26:40 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Cold fusion report by Jim Corey of Sandia N.L.available Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57238 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: http://newenergytimes.com/reports/ICCF11-2005-CoreyJim-Trip%20Report.pdf Steve From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 6 17:13:03 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j071CtWM019365; Thu, 6 Jan 2005 17:12:56 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j071CrVR019351; Thu, 6 Jan 2005 17:12:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 17:12:53 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=pxY5p20ur+c13f6zwCszMHqxlNkXobltg+sJtFFpehFpGKz4vyGwDIv6SmfAf5BsGKB7TwAyBcY4cOGDvxtGjcs/iza8tnEL8TEM0ImaNDBZEH+nJddvw6QYW5bX3MHeLwuq/Cp8mh3df5crUMyGmx8ybs7KLugPHHAKJFQANZY= ; Message-ID: <20050107011242.29677.qmail web51703.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 17:12:42 -0800 (PST) From: Terry Blanton Subject: Re: intelligent design To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <004001c4f3a9$8b32c780$3c027841 xptower> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57239 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- RC Macaulay wrote: > Man went > into caves later.. they didn't come out of caves > later. Yeah. First they had to figure out how to evict the bears. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? All your favorites on one personal page – Try My Yahoo! http://my.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 6 17:31:48 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j071VfWM024663; Thu, 6 Jan 2005 17:31:41 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j071Ve4V024650; Thu, 6 Jan 2005 17:31:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 17:31:40 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=zvAQ8hot7//eTVhkaCGsN88NUjRXq4nlsITjNV9KkMXzf3qzHeTNEr4ILmVuU9KiEKNYO1cgXZOtAfTzRL8aqRpROX26RraSUdP6tEUWSFFLu3Io8crYqCc3qmyDbmDNB4XleK9j2pQzHpCswBxfBPGFjAQdGtZX8IFvQuMmAFI= ; Message-ID: <20050107013133.11504.qmail web51702.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 17:31:33 -0800 (PST) From: Terry Blanton Subject: Re: Comments from billb amform (fwd) To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57240 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Did anyone respond to Dr. Wang? http://www.phys.subr.edu/faculty/jwang.htm --- William Beaty wrote: > > Can someone give Mr. Wang some pointers? > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 11:20:55 -0800 > From: Jin T. Wang > To: billb eskimo.com > Subject: Comments from billb amform > > > --- comments --- > > I am a professor in physics at Southern University, > USA. I am very > interested in Cold Fusion. Recently I wrote a paper > about cold fusion > theory. I theoretically prove that cold fusion is > possible and also > discussed the difficulties. Please give me some > advise how to publish my > paper online. Thank very much. J.T. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do? http://my.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 6 17:53:01 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j071qrWM030036; Thu, 6 Jan 2005 17:52:53 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j071qp1j030016; Thu, 6 Jan 2005 17:52:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 17:52:51 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=LxECEBNIXm+vQ+Stv/uIW+X957PUZfgY4ohjXVQuwb+lxN62qAUiFvBlvnepjdYD8nn0JayCGKCP/blKssK4LTNLudA5G6wSBollHOtXCB4VI9MtzxAg8jL4zfamuep7uAZVINbjLknwUJZer3fU1q5Dp0hdVyXulPt1SwYmf5E= ; Message-ID: <20050107015245.41399.qmail web51703.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 17:52:45 -0800 (PST) From: Terry Blanton Subject: Re: Cathode plasma experiments report posted To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <001a01c4f3fb$dada58a0$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57241 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- Jones Beene wrote: > ... if for instance > deuterinos are forming more rapidly than hydrinos > under the > same circumstances Why? Is there reason to believe that the 1/n transition energy is different from 27.2 eV for deuterium? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 6 18:46:21 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j072kEJt007914; Thu, 6 Jan 2005 18:46:15 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j072k2BQ007821; Thu, 6 Jan 2005 18:46:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 18:46:02 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20050107024556.16998.qmail web81102.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 18:45:56 -0800 (PST) From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: Cathode plasma experiments report posted To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <20050107015245.41399.qmail web51703.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57242 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- Terry Blanton wrote: > > ... if for instance deuterinos are forming more rapidly than hydrinos under the same circumstances... > Why? Is there reason to believe that the 1/n transition energy is different from 27.2 eV for deuterium? Good question. There is the possible issue of 'charge shielding' in the D nucleus due to the neutron... but I'm sure you wouldn't let that one slide, as the net effect of that would logically seem to hinder a tighter orbital, rather than create it, right? One is left to speculate that IF deuterinos form more rapidly than hydrinos under the same circumstances (definitely unproven but there are some tantalizing hints), it might involve a situation where the neutron participates by simply creating an irreversible instability in electron orbital spin... ...plus the neutron "contains" an electronium antineutrino (at least one comes out on decay) and this beast may not be quantized, or if it is, the energy steps are so small that it may be able to drain energy away from an ellipitical electron in small multiples - those which coincide with what the drop in the electron's angular momentum will accommodate - multiples of either 3.4 eV or 6.8 eV perhaps... there is very little evidence in the spectroscopy charts for the "full" 27.2 eV. Mills' own graphs show thousands of times more photons in these lower UV ranges, but he is always claiming "downshifting" is the culprit ... I don't buy that. OTOH he is the genius who "ought" to know ;-) I have long believed that the hydrino/deuterino "shrinkage" itself is probably endothermic, and that any "net" exotherm in NOT guaranteed but will depend on other circumstances which must operate in consort with the shrinkage... such as "pumping" from Dirac's sea ... for instance. BTW That is how Nick could have lots of deuterinos forming and binding to the K ions but yet little real excess energy... until he "harvests" his crop...that is. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 6 18:59:16 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j072x8Jt011844; Thu, 6 Jan 2005 18:59:08 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j072x6qb011819; Thu, 6 Jan 2005 18:59:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 18:59:06 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20050107025856.87351.qmail web81107.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 18:58:56 -0800 (PST) From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: Cathode plasma experiments report posted To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <20050107024556.16998.qmail web81102.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57243 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > ...plus the neutron "contains" an electronium antineutrino that should be "electron"... not electronium, of course. When the subject of a possible LENR/hydrino crossover comes up, I get so many alternatives, wild guesses and hypotheticals jumping on and off the see-saw of logic at any one time, that its hard to keep from getting buried in the redundant ground state. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 6 19:15:56 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j073FpWM014201; Thu, 6 Jan 2005 19:15:51 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j073FnXd014182; Thu, 6 Jan 2005 19:15:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 19:15:49 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002201c4f467$29ee2be0$d3037841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: cathode plasma experiments report posted Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 21:15:01 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001E_01C4F434.C8711F30" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.8 required=4.0 tests=HTML_30_40,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57244 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C4F434.C8711F30 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_001F_01C4F434.C8711F30" ------=_NextPart_001_001F_01C4F434.C8711F30 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankJones, Reading your post to Nick makes me feel a little more objective after = posting my observations during tests of our gas inductors that created = a vortex in the water test tank. The " vortex strike like a cobra" = event we attribute to cavitation that impacts the rotating member is a = momentary event that occurs about every 20 seconds with sufficent impact = to move the entire submerged unit. The ultrahigh molecular weight poly = material ( UHMW) shows cavitation impacts different from normal = cavitation we see on pump impellers. This cavitation leaves sharp deep = pointed cavities rather than the "shot peening" we see inside pipes or = the " rotting" we see on bronze pump impellers. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_001F_01C4F434.C8711F30 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Jones,
 Reading your post to Nick makes me feel = a little=20 more objective after posting my observations during tests of our gas = inductors=20 that  created a vortex in the water test tank. The  " vortex = strike=20 like a cobra" event we attribute to cavitation that impacts the rotating = member is a momentary event that occurs about every 20 seconds with = sufficent impact to move the entire submerged unit. The ultrahigh = molecular=20 weight poly material ( UHMW) shows cavitation impacts = different from=20 normal cavitation we see on pump impellers. This cavitation leaves  = sharp=20 deep pointed cavities rather than the "shot peening" we see inside pipes = or=20 the           " = rotting" we=20 see on bronze pump impellers.
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_001F_01C4F434.C8711F30-- ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C4F434.C8711F30 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <001d01c4f467$1306d440$d3037841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C4F434.C8711F30-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 6 20:30:38 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j074UOis010944; Thu, 6 Jan 2005 20:30:24 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j074UMQl010846; Thu, 6 Jan 2005 20:30:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 20:30:22 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Baronvolsung aol.com Message-ID: Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 23:30:13 EST Subject: Two Parts of Wave Equation To: NEO-ROUNDTABLE yahoogroups.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_bb.4e44537c.2f0f6a55_boundary" X-Mailer: 6.0 sub 10578 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57245 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --part1_bb.4e44537c.2f0f6a55_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit " Two Parts of Wave Equation: by Konstantine Meyle, Scalar Waves, pg. 476 Delta E = (longitudinal wave) grad div E - (transverse Hertzian wave ) rot rot E = 1/c^2 * d^2E/dt^2, where grad div means the gradual divergence, delta= triangle (change in operator), d = differential operator, ^ = superscript, c = speed of light, and E = energy. " If the field pointers oscillate crossways to the direction of propogation, then as consequence the velocity of propogation is decoupled from the oscillating fields. The result in all cases is the speed of light, and that in our observation is constant. Konstnatine Meyl, Scalar Waves, Pg. 475 " Properties of Longitudinal electric or magnetic scalar wave: Form (each time for velocity of propagation v) as ring vortices longitudinal: (v > c): neutrino radiation, morphogenic fields ... (v = c): photons, (v www.rhfweb.com\baron, Email: www.rhfweb.com\emailform.html President Thomas D. Clark, Email: www.rhfweb.com\emailform.html, Personal Web Page: www.rhfweb.com\personal New Age Production's Inc., www.rhfweb.com\newage Star Haven Community Services, at www.rhfweb.com\sh. Radiation Health Foundation Trust at www.rhfweb.com Making a difference one person at a time Get informed. Inform others. --part1_bb.4e44537c.2f0f6a55_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
" Two Parts of Wave Equation: by Konstantine Meyle, Scalar Waves, pg. 47= 6

Delta E =3D (longitudinal wave) grad div E - (transverse Hertzian wave )= rot rot E =3D 1/c^2 * d^2E/dt^2, where grad div means the gradual divergenc= e, delta=3D triangle (change in operator), d =3D differential operator, ^=20= =3D superscript, c =3D speed of light, and E =3D energy.=20

" If the field pointers oscillate crossways to the direction of propogat= ion, then as consequence the velocity of  propogation is decoupled from= the oscillating fields. The result in all cases is the speed of light, and=20= that in our observation is constant. Konstnatine Meyl, Scalar Waves, Pg. 475= "

Properties of Longitudinal electric or magnetic scalar wave:

Form (each time for velocity of propagation v) as ring vortices longitud= inal:

(v > c): neutrino radiation, morphogenic fields ...
(v =3D c): photons,=20
(v <c ) plasma waves, thermal vortices, earth radiation
(v =3D 0) noise

Properties of Hertzian electromagnetic transverse wave

form (each time for frequency) as a circular polarized wave transverse:

cosmic radiation,
x-rays,
uv radiation
light
infrared radiation
microwaves
radio waves
VLF, ULF, ..."

Baron Von Volsung, www.rhfweb.co= m\baron, Email: www.rhf= web.com\emailform.html=20
President Thomas D. Clark, Email: www.rhfweb.com\emailform.html,=20
Personal Web Page: www.rhfweb= .com\personal=20
New Age Production's Inc., www.= rhfweb.com\newage=20
Star Haven Community Services, at w= ww.rhfweb.com\sh.=20
Radiation Health Foundation Trust at = www.rhfweb.com=20

Making a difference one person at a time=20
Get informed. Inform others.=20
--part1_bb.4e44537c.2f0f6a55_boundary-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 6 20:34:52 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j074Yhis012752; Thu, 6 Jan 2005 20:34:43 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j074YfMU012737; Thu, 6 Jan 2005 20:34:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 20:34:41 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Cathode plasma experiments report posted Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 23:34:49 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <20050106104951.92572.qmail web60305.mail.yahoo.com> Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57246 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Nick. Nice pix! Presumably those little explosions are pockets of gas igniting, or erosion events. Cave, Frater! you can ignite the whole volume of gas and have a little D2 chemical explosion. I had good electrode stability with a thicker dia platinum rod; and I like the geometry of the triangle. A cone would be even more stable, like an igniter in an ignitron. Can you calibrate the neutron detector? It's important to set some kind of limits for the ( so far it seems ) null results. Perhaps someone can loan you a cup of neutrons to test with.... If the plasma sheath covers the whole electrode and you increase the voltage, you begin to enter the anomalous glow regime of discharge. Some folks have claimed magical things happen here. Beyond the fairy lights and the will-o-the-wisp as shown in your pics. BTW, is Bounty even _rated_ for heavy water spills? K. -----Original Message----- From: Nick Reiter [mailto:avalonbiker yahoo.com] Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2005 5:49 AM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Cathode plasma experiments report posted Dear all, At long last, the paper describing our experiments in plasma electrolysis since this past August has now been finished and posted. My son uploaded it last night onto Sam Faile's website: http://www.geocities.com/spfaile/plasma/Plasma.html Only one format erratum for now - the spaces in some tabular data in the original Word doc didn't come through in html, so when you get to the italicized excerpts from the lab notes in two spots, they are scrunched to one side. Will have that fixed soon. Enjoy. NR __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 6 21:04:46 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0754fXd006488; Thu, 6 Jan 2005 21:04:42 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0754Zd8006431; Thu, 6 Jan 2005 21:04:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 21:04:35 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <77.3c1b1efd.2f0c9733 aol.com> References: <77.3c1b1efd.2f0c9733 aol.com> Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 23:04:50 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Annoying recursive hypothesis! Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="============_-1107048176==_ma============" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1161; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57247 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --============_-1107048176==_ma============ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Frank Znidarsek posted; >In a message dated 1/4/2005 6:15:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, >eo200 ncf.ca writes: > >Personally I do not feel life BEGINS by chance, although the >subsequent evolution is plausibly Darwinian. >Perhaps an E.T. (not necessarily God) has been > >Man has come very close to producing synthetic life. We have made >proteins, self replicating molecules. It only a matter of time >until man creates living matter from non living matter. Will that >make man God? Is then a God need to have life? With regards to the mechanism we call life. The probability of even the simplest mechanisms which constitute life occurring by chance is a 1 with 200+ zeros behind it. Let alone subsystems like the eyes and ears. This thread originated with Parksie griping about our pushing to have intelligent design taught in the schools, heaven forbid! I don't mind the idea of survival of the fittest being taught in schools, that is a clearly demonstrated principal. However Darwinism comes down to spontaneous biogenesis which is, IMHO nonsense. Then there is the belief that one species can mutate into another, such that their offspring cannot mate one with another, which has never been observed. Furthermore, I don't think that we have any real understanding of how life works. IMHO, there is an energy called Chi, one component of which comes up from the Earth, and the other which comes down from the sky. Some how they interact with the mechanism to make what we call life. Life has the ability to reset the DNA's program through the sexual fusion process. In most cases, this sorts out all the defects, allowing for an old man and a middle aged woman to make a baby that is truly young. This is why I think that cloning is such a waste of time. Dolly was born a middle aged sheep. Since the gearhead scientists are unable to explain what most of the DNA does they labeled it Junk DNA! It's like me taking a machine apart, since I don't have a good understanding of how this machine works, I label the parts that I don't understand junk. IMHO, this is hubris on a grand scale. With respect to man becoming like G-d, this is the great lie what was told in the Garden of Eden. There is however a quantum jump between our carnal minds and G-d's. It comes down to holiness, or kadosh as we say in Hebrew. HaShem AKA G-d says, be ye holy as I am holy, that's why I'm such a big fan of Torah. The reason that the world is in such a mess is because of Human Evil. Like bugs in a petri dish, we've overgrown, and are poisoning the planet. BTW, there is evidence that the human population is beginning to crash, between sexual transmitted diseases and bad diet. This illustrates two fundamental differences between Parksie's materialistic worldview, and a spiritual worldview which is held by people such as myself. He ignores the fact that life reverses the second law, which should be obvious to someone with his education. He is clueless about the energy element of life, he denies Chi, witness his attacks on energy medicine. This ignorance grows out of his G-dless world view. --============_-1107048176==_ma============ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Re: OFF TOPIC Annoying recursive hypothesis!
Frank Znidarsek posted;

In a message dated 1/4/2005 6:15:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, eo200 ncf.ca writes:
Personally I do not feel life BEGINS by chance, although the
subsequent evolution is plausibly Darwinian.
Perhaps an E.T. (not necessarily God) has been
Man has come very close to producing synthetic life.  We have made proteins, self replicating molecules.  It only a matter of time until man creates living matter from non living matter.  Will that make man God?  Is then a God need to have life?


 With regards to the mechanism we call life. The probability of even the simplest mechanisms which constitute life occurring by chance is a 1 with 200+ zeros behind it. Let alone subsystems like the eyes and ears.

This thread originated with Parksie griping about our pushing to have intelligent design taught in the schools, heaven forbid! I don't mind the idea of survival of the fittest being taught in schools, that is a clearly demonstrated principal. However Darwinism comes down to spontaneous biogenesis which is, IMHO nonsense. Then there is the belief that one species can mutate into another, such that their offspring cannot mate one with another, which has never been observed.

Furthermore, I don't think that we have any real understanding of how life works. IMHO, there is an energy called Chi, one component of which comes up from the Earth, and the other which comes down from the sky. Some how they interact with the mechanism to make what we call life.

Life has the ability to reset the DNA's program through the sexual fusion process. In most cases, this sorts out all the defects, allowing for an old man and a middle aged woman to make a baby that is truly young. This is why I think that cloning is such a waste of time. Dolly was born a middle aged sheep. 

Since the gearhead scientists are unable to explain what most of the DNA does they labeled it Junk DNA! It's like me taking a machine apart, since I don't have a good understanding of how this machine works, I label the parts that I don't understand junk. IMHO, this is hubris on a grand scale.          

With respect to man becoming like G-d, this is the great lie what was told in the Garden of Eden. There is however a quantum jump between our carnal minds and G-d's. It comes down to holiness, or kadosh as we say in Hebrew. HaShem AKA G-d says, be ye holy as I am holy, that's why I'm such a big fan of Torah. The reason that the world is in such a mess is because of Human Evil. Like bugs in a petri dish, we've overgrown, and are poisoning the planet. BTW, there is evidence that the human population is beginning to crash, between sexual transmitted diseases and bad diet.

This illustrates two fundamental differences between Parksie's materialistic worldview, and a spiritual worldview which is held by people such as myself. He ignores the fact that life reverses the second law, which should be obvious to someone with his education. He is clueless about the energy element of life, he denies Chi, witness his attacks on energy medicine. This ignorance grows out of his G-dless world view.


--============_-1107048176==_ma============-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 6 21:08:34 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0758NVo021707; Thu, 6 Jan 2005 21:08:23 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0758MtL021699; Thu, 6 Jan 2005 21:08:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 21:08:22 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <004601c4f202$e5bd6eb0$72037841 xptower> References: <004601c4f202$e5bd6eb0$72037841 xptower> Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 23:08:54 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: Salty water from Mars? Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="============_-1107047949==_ma============" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1161; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57248 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --============_-1107047949==_ma============ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" >In Bob Parks newsletter " whats new" ,he reported the Mars explorers >encountered dry ocean beds that once contained " salt water". I just watched the PBS show on the Mars Rover for the second time. Apparently hematite doesn't form in the absence of water, ditto for sulfate salts dissolved out of the rock and deposited on the surface. The show was done too long ago for the issue of the solar cell's output suddenly coming back to it's original energy output, I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for them to do so either. > >Perhaps that can explain my long sought answer to " why" earth's >oceans are so salty. There is not enough salt on earth to cause the >level of salt content that exists in the earth' oceans. What is your source for there being insufficient salt on earth to account for the salt in the ocean? >Hmm.. again.. did earth close encounter with Mars in the distant >past " strip " off water causing what the ancient's dsecribed as the >" great flood" ? Good theory Richard, it would account for a number of things. While I had this post in my out box, I listened to a man explain that Mars used to be in an orbit which carried it close to Earth. This would explain several things: the salt, the flood, a legend about the two moons, the fear of people about Mars. --============_-1107047949==_ma============ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Re: Salty water from Mars?
In Bob Parks newsletter " whats new" ,he reported the Mars explorers encountered dry ocean beds that once contained " salt water".

I just watched the PBS show on the Mars Rover for the second time. Apparently hematite doesn't form in the absence of water, ditto for sulfate salts dissolved out of the rock and deposited on the surface. The show was done too long ago for the issue of the solar cell's output suddenly coming back to it's original energy output, I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for them to do so either.

 
Perhaps that can explain my long sought answer to " why" earth's oceans are so salty. There is not enough salt on earth to cause the level of salt content that exists in the earth' oceans.

What is your source for there being insufficient salt on earth to account for the salt in the ocean?

Hmm.. again.. did earth close encounter with Mars in the distant past " strip " off water causing what the ancient's dsecribed as the " great flood" ?

Good theory Richard, it would account for a number of things. While I had this post in my out box, I listened to a man explain that Mars used to be in an orbit which carried it close to Earth. This would explain several things: the salt, the flood, a legend about the two moons, the fear of people about Mars.


--============_-1107047949==_ma============-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 7 08:45:01 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j07GinJD009191; Fri, 7 Jan 2005 08:44:54 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j07GimVe009183; Fri, 7 Jan 2005 08:44:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 08:44:48 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=qmd7EEH3nhTA9+p3S3DgGkjCn3f6uFu0mNFj1wf8PA4kgux2ZYKp2V1p5xDlO3oU; Message-ID: <410-2200515715444210 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Electronium-Light or Electron-Light Lepton Group Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 09:44:42 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9403a3bf00aad4aa20d3ed1abb7f274cf9d350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.9 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57249 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Jones Beene wrote: > > ...plus the neutron "contains" an electron > antineutrino (at least one comes out on decay) and > this beast may not be quantized, or if it is, the > energy steps are so small that it may be able to drain > energy away from an elliptical electron in small > multiples - those which coincide with what the drop in > the electron's angular momentum will accommodate - > multiples of either 3.4 eV or 6.8 eV perhaps... there > is very little evidence in the spectroscopy charts for > the "full" 27.2 eV. > That 3.4 or 6.8 eV could be a low energy pair production species that joins an electron to form Electronium-Light (**e-). Mass About the same as that of the electron, charge e- , spin 1/2 hbar, radius slightly greater than 3.0 Fermi. No reason why low energy discharges can't allow this. Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

Jones Beene wrote:
>
> ...plus the neutron "contains" an electron
> antineutrino (at least one comes out on decay) and
> this beast may not be quantized, or if it is, the
> energy steps are so small that it may be able to drain
> energy away from an elliptical electron in small
> multiples - those which coincide with what the drop in
> the electron's angular momentum will accommodate -
> multiples of either 3.4 eV or 6.8 eV perhaps... there
> is very little evidence in the spectroscopy charts for
> the "full" 27.2 eV.
>
That 3.4 or 6.8 eV could be a low energy pair production species that
joins an electron to form Electronium-Light (**e-).
Mass About the same as
that of the electron, charge e- , spin 1/2 hbar, radius slightly greater than 3.0 Fermi.
 
No reason why low energy discharges can't allow this.
 
Frederick
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 7 08:55:20 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j07GtEHS000814; Fri, 7 Jan 2005 08:55:14 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j07GsvU7000671; Fri, 7 Jan 2005 08:54:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 08:54:57 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20050107165450.26806.qmail web81105.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 08:54:50 -0800 (PST) From: Jones Beene Subject: RE: Cathode plasma experiments report posted To: knagel gis.net, vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57250 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- Keith Nagel wrote: > Can you calibrate the neutron detector? It's > important to > set some kind of limits for the ( so far it seems ) > null results. Perhaps someone can loan you a cup > of neutrons to test with.... Rather than null, I would say incomplete. Let's take the contrarian (and optimistic viewpoint) that there have been some neutrons but they are extremely low energy "stirpping" neutrons. There is no way they are going to get out of that much heavy water, but with the approx 15 min decay time, they can still be found long after the cell is shut off. This has the distinct triple advantage of allowing a detector to be placed in the cell itself, plus it eliminates almost all other possibilities, plus since it is now beta decay (albeit low energy) and it allows much more flexibility in the kind of detector, plastic scintillator or film, even a photography light meter could be rigged up. The traditional CD geiger counter won't work however. > BTW, is Bounty even _rated_ for heavy water spills? I have it on good authority that Rosie says the quicker-picker-upper can sop up any yellow liquid in 30 seconds; so if it is resisting, you know what to do... Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 7 09:10:15 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j07HA8HS003930; Fri, 7 Jan 2005 09:10:09 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j07HA72O003905; Fri, 7 Jan 2005 09:10:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 09:10:07 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20050107171000.73714.qmail web81109.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 09:10:00 -0800 (PST) From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: Electronium-Light or Electron-Light Lepton Group To: fjsparber earthlink.net, vortex-l In-Reply-To: <410-2200515715444210 earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57251 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- Frederick Sparber "spins" (without a smiley) : > > ...plus the neutron "contains" an electron antineutrino (at least one comes out on decay) and this beast may not be quantized, or if it is, the energy steps are so small that it may be able to drain energy away from an elliptical orbital in small multiples - those which coincide with what the drop in the electron's angular momentum will accommodate - multiples of either 3.4 eV or 6.8 eV perhaps... > That 3.4 or 6.8 eV could be a low energy pair production species that joins an electron to form Electronium-Light (**e-). Mass About the same as that of the electron, charge e- , spin 1/2 hbar, radius slightly greater than 3.0 Fermi. Wow... not ready to jump-in on that one yet... but to backtrack a bit to the electronium bound triad of leptons - Frederick, in particular, should be interested in a little more "official" detail on how relativistic electrons "feel" the static charge of the nucleus. It is not so simple as we were assuming, as it apparently involves a mathematical cross-product. On another forum (Blaze), "Wesley Faler" wrote: " I've been told that in a static electric field, an accelerating charged particle traveling at near light speed will actually perceive the field as electromagnetic, not just electrostatic. This is supposed to be the basis of "spintronics" area of electronics devices." Yes, and we should add that the answer is important in the larger field of "excitonics" as well, not to mention the question of how the electron can be induced to drop into a redundant ground state, if indeed it does, as R. Mills suggests. He provides this reference: http://departments.weber.edu/physics/schroeder/mrr/MRRnotes.pdf "If you have an electric field in one reference frame, how does it look from a different reference frame, moving with respect to the first? This question is crucial if we are to understand fields created by moving sources. For now, let us restrict ourselves to the special case where the sources that create the field are at rest with respect to one of the reference frames. So our question is: Given the electric field in the frame where the sources are at rest, what is the electric field in some other frame? Our fundamental assumption will be that knowing the electric field at some point (in space and time) in the rest frame of the sources, and knowing the relative velocity of the two frames, gives us all the information we need to calculate the electric field at the same point in the other frame. In other words, the electric field in the other frame does not depend on the particular distribution of the source charges, only on the local value of the electric field in the first frame at that point. Basically, we’re taking the electric field very seriously, assuming that it is a complete representation of the influence of the far-away charges." Just a teaser. For the whole answer you will have to download and study a rather long paper, some elementary but with some gems of insight... Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 7 10:28:19 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j07IS6VI019642; Fri, 7 Jan 2005 10:28:10 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j07IS4em019616; Fri, 7 Jan 2005 10:28:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 10:28:04 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050107132602.029d0718 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2005 13:27:50 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: New papers at LENR-CANR Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_7056218==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: <_HcVJ.A.WyE.0St3BB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57252 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_7056218==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed New papers by Kowalski, a golden oldie from Reifenschweiler, and the trip report from Jim Corey. See: http://lenr-canr.org/FilesByDate.htm (The Corey report includes Krivit's corrections.) - Jed --=====================_7056218==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" New papers by Kowalski, a golden oldie from Reifenschweiler, and the trip report from Jim Corey. See:

 http://lenr-canr.org/FilesByDate.htm

(The Corey report includes Krivit's corrections.)

- Jed
--=====================_7056218==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 7 10:45:04 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j07IiomV025437; Fri, 7 Jan 2005 10:44:50 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j07IilTD025412; Fri, 7 Jan 2005 10:44:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 10:44:47 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=aFf2F+eCydBxTVMRpiTzygmAAvUVQBVm7ywnTHqziWsfbr+lboELtz/Rc26994xQ; Message-ID: <410-22005157174438230 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" , "Jones Beene" Subject: Re: Electronium-Light or Electron-Light Lepton Group Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 11:44:38 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940cef0a7994b3d444e88e0d0dde5a96f59350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.249 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57253 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Jones, Note the Feynman diagram/s for possible production of an Electronium-Light Triad from an Electron-Proton collision. Even the 13.6 eV capture energy of hydrogen could create the Triad. http://musr.physics.ubc.ca/~jess/p200/emc2/node9.html Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

Jones,
 
Note the Feynman diagram/s for possible production of an Electronium-Light Triad
from an Electron-Proton collision.
Even the 13.6 eV capture energy of hydrogen could create the Triad.
 
 
 
Frederick
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 7 11:13:19 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j07JD9b5005718; Fri, 7 Jan 2005 11:13:09 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j07JD7xA005696; Fri, 7 Jan 2005 11:13:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 11:13:07 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20050107191259.62383.qmail web81101.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 11:12:59 -0800 (PST) From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: New papers at LENR-CANR To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050107132602.029d0718 pop.mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57254 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- Jed Rothwell wrote: > New papers by Kowalski.... See: > http://lenr-canr.org/FilesByDate.htm Kowalski is an excellent non-biased reporter of science from the Professorial perpective. And such a clear and rational thinker ! Please read everything the guy has written, pro and con. When he hits on something statistically important, I am sure it gives the mainstream skeptics shivers, because among other things, it usually exposes their inane irrationality in such a dispassionate way. I prefer the more straightforward s___-h___, which is one of the many reasons that I'm never going to be invited to give a lecture on LENR at MIT. Eventually, he will... but it may take a while longer before the "tipping point" is reached. Especially good is "Charged particles from Ti and Pd foils." in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 7 13:33:42 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j07LXahW012515; Fri, 7 Jan 2005 13:33:37 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j07LXZFQ012510; Fri, 7 Jan 2005 13:33:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 13:33:35 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050107163232.02a6bac8 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2005 16:33:30 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Funny comment from Brian Josephson Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_18196140==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57255 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A --=====================_18196140==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed [Comment from Brian Josephson] Physics World has another of these dogma-driven reports of the DoE investigation, which does not seem to be on the web. I present key points from it in the form of an exercise in logic: "Cold Fusion gets lukewarm backing" 1. "the reviewers say they remain unconvinced about the reality of cold fusion ..." 2. "... indeed, a third of the reviewers believe that the phenomenon could potentially create excess power" Invent a logic system for which these two statements are consistent with each other, and use it to prove that pigs can fly. Brian --=====================_18196140==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" [Comment from  Brian Josephson]

Physics World has another of these dogma-driven reports of the DoE investigation, which does not seem to be on the web.  I present key points from it in the form of an exercise in logic:

"Cold Fusion gets lukewarm backing"

1. "the reviewers say they remain unconvinced about the reality of cold fusion ..."
2. "... indeed, a third of the reviewers believe that the phenomenon could potentially create excess power"

Invent a logic system for which these two statements are consistent with each other, and use it to prove that pigs can fly.

Brian
 --=====================_18196140==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 7 19:33:28 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j083XK5g005055; Fri, 7 Jan 2005 19:33:24 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j083XFdx005012; Fri, 7 Jan 2005 19:33:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 19:33:15 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <410-220051683330420 ix.netcom.com> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: aki ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.1.47.0 (Windows) From: "Akira Kawasaki" To: "vortex-l" Subject: FW: WHAT'S NEW Friday, January 07, 2005 Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 19:33:00 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: c4cc7f5f697e8746f66dc3a06d5924d86a774909d47ac1c7d67ca6f27b00b7f03d22eb99cf5c6dcb350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.131.146.213 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57256 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > From: What's New > To: Akira Kawasaki Date: 1/7/2005 12:30:41 PM Subject: WHAT'S NEW Friday, January 07, 2005 WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 07 Jan 04 Washington, DC 1. MISSILE DEFENSE: SCALED BACK TO PAY FOR THE GROUND WAR IN IRAQ? The FY06 budget plan leaked by the Pentagon trims $5B from missile defense over six years as part of the president's pledge to cut the $500B budget deficit in half. Meanwhile, the White House is said to be preparing a $100B emergency spending bill to pay for the war in Iraq. $5B won't make a dent in this deficit, so why take it out of the president's vaunted missile defense? Maybe the idea is to save it by eliminating testing. Tests are embarrassing anyway http://www.aps.org/WN/WN04/wn121704.cfm . And who needs them? The only hope of missile defense is to sow doubt in the mind of a would-be attacker. Testing would remove the uncertainty. 2. MEDIUM DONE: IF ONLY THE HURRICANE HADN'T WASHED THE BODY AWAY. At WN we're still trying to figure out why superstitious nonsense persists in an age of science. Last night we sought clues in the NBC prime-time program Medium, based on the exploits of "Research Medium and Criminal Profiler" Allison Dubois. She solves murders by chatting with dead victims. In this episode, she takes a Texas Ranger to a spot in the middle of a field where a boy is buried. Before they can get back with a search warrant to dig him up, a hurricane hits Texas and he washed away. Sigh. Some silly programs are fun; Spiderman's super powers come from being bitten by a radioactive spider. But there's a huge difference -- Medium takes itself seriously. There really is an Allison Dubois who thinks she's a medium, and she's an NBC consultant; NBC shuld be ashamed. The James Randi million-dollar prize for proof of te supernatural was pointed out to Dubois. "He'll never give the money to anyone," she sensed. Amazing! So we are offering the WN Challenge. She sensed where the boy was buried; if she can sense where his body floated to, she gets WN free for life, and beyond. 3. ADJUSTMENTS: FLORIDA STATE FACULTY OPPOSE CHIROPRACTIC SCHOOL. There is a faculty revolt brewing at FSU. Both of FSU's two Nobel laureates, Bob Schreiffer in physics and chemist Harold Kroto are opposed, fearing the impact on FSU's academic reputation. A map of the campus parodies the planned chiropractic school with a Bigfoot Institute, Astrology School and Crop Circle simulation Laboratory. The Legislature has appropriated $9M annually for the school. Chiropractic was founded in Davenport, Iowa by Daniel Palmer. It actually began as Palmer's School of Magnetic Cure, but Palmer discovered, as Mesmer had discovered in Paris, that it worked just as well if you left the magnets out, and the name was changed to Palmer's School of Chiropractic. THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND. Opinions are the author's and not necessarily shared by the University of Maryland, but they should be. --- Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.aps.org/WN To subscribe, send a blank e-mail to: From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 8 03:11:34 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j08BBNrh030257; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 03:11:24 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j08BBJ4D030229; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 03:11:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 03:11:19 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=gWR578BLccKckl29PZ1OFFFzpZev8vS383wehTDBiK7ReCVV8wEnOEGW9NYtLZQu; Message-ID: <410-22005168101112700 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Two Choices for Electronium-Light Particle Production Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 04:11:12 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9406856036728da0c7bf4a8117ef9319406350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.167 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57257 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Jones. As I see it. It's either 3.4 eV (2nd orbit) or 13.6 eV (first orbit) both UV photon range, for possible light lepton-positronium pair production and possible subsequent Electronium-Light (**e-) particle production. Giving particles of 1.7 eV or 6.8 eV mass/energy each according to these Bohr Orbit Applets. No? http://www.walter-fendt.de/ph11e/bohrh.htm http://lectureonline.cl.msu.edu/~mmp/kap29/Bohr/app.htm Feynman's Diagrams http://musr.physics.ubc.ca/~jess/p200/emc2/node9.html Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

Jones.
 
As I see it.
 
It's either 3.4 eV (2nd orbit) or 13.6 eV (first orbit) both UV photon range, for possible light lepton-positronium
pair production and possible subsequent Electronium-Light (**e-) particle production.
 
Giving particles of 1.7 eV or 6.8 eV mass/energy each according to these Bohr Orbit Applets.  No?
 
 
 
 
Feynman's Diagrams

http://musr.physics.ubc.ca/~jess/p200/emc2/node9.html

Frederick

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 8 08:41:27 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j08GfBrh031373; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 08:41:15 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j08Gf84d031354; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 08:41:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 08:41:09 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=fN/qkEs1XFMX7e9fK+SrMJXT9oI4amHpFIi3lckSOijH5pYq3hMqQKZ4ERkaq56v; Message-ID: <410-2200516815410440 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: New Composite Material Reverses Snell's Law Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 09:41:00 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_01BC2B74.89D1CCC0" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9400040d0dbfc03da1ecd647243756d99d6350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.165.93 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57258 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BC2B74.89D1CCC0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Great possibilities for microwave ray guns. :-) http://composite.about.com/library/PR/2001/blucsd2.htm ""If these effects turn out to be possible at optical frequencies, this material would have the crazy property that a small flashlight shining on a flat slab would produce a focus at a point on the other side," says Schultz. "There's no way you can do that with just a flat sheet of ordinary material."" Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Great possibilities for microwave ray guns.   :-)
 
 

""If these effects turn out to be possible at optical frequencies, this material would have the crazy property that a small flashlight shining on a flat slab would produce a focus at a point on the other side," says Schultz. "There's no way you can do that with just a flat sheet of ordinary material.""
 
Frederick
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- ------=_NextPart_000_01BC2B74.89D1CCC0 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="New Composite Material Reverses Snells Law.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Description: New Composite Material Reverses Snells Law.url Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="New Composite Material Reverses Snells Law.url" W0RFRkFVTFRdDQpCQVNFVVJMPWh0dHA6Ly9jb21wb3NpdGUuYWJvdXQuY29tL2xpYnJhcnkvUFIv MjAwMS9ibHVjc2QyLmh0bQ0KDQpbSW50ZXJuZXRTaG9ydGN1dF0NClVSTD1odHRwOi8vY29tcG9z aXRlLmFib3V0LmNvbS9saWJyYXJ5L1BSLzIwMDEvYmx1Y3NkMi5odG0NCk1vZGlmaWVkPUEwNTFF Q0NEOTdGNUM0MDFGQg0K ------=_NextPart_000_01BC2B74.89D1CCC0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 8 09:00:48 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j08H0f5g007911; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 09:00:41 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j08H0d8d007898; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 09:00:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 09:00:39 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=K5KNICrocUfKoTtdzPSa05f4OJNUhjRIcutl/TyswdTFkSNEZA7hB5GfxJLfeZpF; Message-ID: <410-2200516816031890 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Snell's Law of Total Internal Reflection & Non-Radiating Orbits Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 10:00:31 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9400c2a07d7568b16d29161fa91a69428c6350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.165.93 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57259 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Jones. Snell's Law of Total Internal Reflection/Critical Angle should keep orbiting electrons from radiating in selected orbits. Sin theta critical = eo*uo/e1*u1 IOW, the electromagnetic fields of the orbiting particle/s dictate the values of e1 & u1, hence no energy loss from the particle's internal or orbiting angular acceleration. Note that the acceleration (a) of an electron in the ground-state orbit: a = mv^2/R where v = c*alpha or c/137. Also note that mv^2 is an Energy term = 27.2 eV or mc^2/R for the particle radius (energy circle or disk) = E/R. Where E = mc^2 :-) Particles create their own Orbit Sphere? Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

 
Jones.
 
Snell's Law of Total Internal Reflection/Critical Angle  should keep orbiting electrons
from radiating in selected orbits.
 
Sin theta critical =   eo*uo/e1*u1
 
IOW, the electromagnetic fields of the orbiting particle/s dictate the values of e1 & u1, hence
no energy loss from the particle's internal or orbiting angular acceleration.
 
Note that the acceleration (a) of an electron in the ground-state orbit:  a = mv^2/R
where v = c*alpha or c/137.
 
Also note that mv^2 is an Energy term = 27.2 eV or mc^2/R  for the particle radius
(energy circle or disk)  = E/R.  Where  E = mc^2   :-)
 
Particles create their own Orbit Sphere?
 
Frederick

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 8 09:13:18 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j08HDB5g009924; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 09:13:11 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j08HDAbu009910; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 09:13:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 09:13:10 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=CBKYUrIV+aOto9cNzycF0oV+9ZakrI5D52gA1K8WUMb49AmGt1F+zyMKyO/axE/e; Message-ID: <410-2200516816134810 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Snell's Law of Total Internal Reflection & Non-Radiating Orbits Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 10:13:04 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9408c209956d5d70fae472773d35f643b20350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.162.108 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57260 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Oops. Correction: Sin theta critical = eo*uo/e1*u1 Should be Sin theta critical = (eo*uo/e1*u1)^1/2 > Jones. > > Snell's Law of Total Internal Reflection/Critical Angle should keep orbiting electrons > from radiating in selected orbits. > > Sin theta critical = eo*uo/e1*u1 > > IOW, the electromagnetic fields of the orbiting particle/s dictate the values of e1 & u1, hence > no energy loss from the particle's internal or orbiting angular acceleration. > > Note that the acceleration (a) of an electron in the ground-state orbit: a = mv^2/R > where v = c*alpha or c/137. > > Also note that mv^2 is an Energy term = 27.2 eV or mc^2/R for the particle radius > (energy circle or disk) = E/R. Where E = mc^2 :-) > > Particles create their own Orbit Sphere? > Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

 
Oops. Correction: 
 
Sin theta critical =   eo*uo/e1*u1  Should be Sin theta critical =   (eo*uo/e1*u1)^1/2
 
> Jones.
>
> Snell's Law of Total Internal Reflection/Critical Angle  should keep orbiting electrons
> from radiating in selected orbits.
>
> Sin theta critical =   eo*uo/e1*u1
>
> IOW, the electromagnetic fields of the orbiting particle/s dictate the values of e1 & u1, hence
> no energy loss from the particle's internal or orbiting angular acceleration.
>
> Note that the acceleration (a) of an electron in the ground-state orbit:  a = mv^2/R
> where v = c*alpha or c/137.
>
> Also note that mv^2 is an Energy term = 27.2 eV or mc^2/R  for the particle radius
> (energy circle or disk)  = E/R.  Where  E = mc^2   :-)
>
> Particles create their own Orbit Sphere?
>
 
Frederick
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 8 13:35:18 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j08LZB5g029888; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 13:35:12 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j08LZ9I0029864; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 13:35:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 13:35:09 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 16:34:24 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: The Big Science Chill To: vortex-l eskimo.com Cc: MetaSciences Academy , PatternVill yahoogroups.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: <_3UqM.A.kSH.NIF4BB ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57261 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: http://www.technewsworld.com/story/39360.html COMMENTARY The Big Science Chill By Sonia Arrison TechNewsWorld 01/07/05 5:00 AM PT When smart people in California's tech mecca fail, they pick up the pieces and the community pats them on the back for taking a risk in the name of progress. Some entrepreneurs even take a different stab at the same idea with the hope that they'll be able to do it better. So why does the pure science community play by different rules? Many people think of scientific disciplines, such as chemistry or physics, as purely fact-based endeavors, not concerned with the fuzzy field of politics. That's rarely the case because when humans are involved, things often get messy. A perfect example is the question of cold fusion. Back in 1989, scientists Stanley Pons and Martin Fleischmann announced they had discovered cold fusion, or nuclear energy that could be released at room temperature and would produce clean, cheap energy. A media frenzy followed, but excitement over the announcement quickly dissipated when others had trouble replicating their results. Whether or not cold fusion will eventually work on a consistent basis is still up in the air. But the political fallout from the Pons and Fleischmann announcement was so bad that it almost completely wiped out research in an extremely important field. Because of this announcement, and the subsequent failure to reproduce results, cold-fusion research became stigmatized and regarded by many scientists as a hoax. What Happened to Persistence? In 1999, Time magazine called cold fusion one of the 100 worst ideas of the century, and others ridiculed it as nothing more than an "Elvis sighting." But not everyone agrees. Scientists such as SRI International's Michael McKubre and Peter Hagelstein, who designed the X-ray laser that was to be a part of President Reagan's "Star Wars" anti-ballistic missile system, are betting cold fusion can work. And governments around the world are putting money into research. Given that there are smart, competent people on both sides of the debate, one might wonder what happened to the American attitude of accepting past failures and trying to build on them. In this respect, the scientific community could learn a lot from Silicon Valley. When smart, well-regarded people in California's tech mecca fail, they pick up the pieces and the community pats them on the back for taking a risk in the name of progress. Heck, some entrepreneurs even take a different stab at the same idea with the hope that they'll be able to do it better. So why does the pure science community play by different rules? Slaves to Data Perhaps it's because there's a public perception that scientifically derived data cannot be subject to interpretation, and that skews behavior. Or, as some researchers have suggested, maybe it's because the scientific community acts under a paternalistic type of data-releasing regime that says results should not be announced to the impressionable public until they are sanctioned by the top dogs of the group. This scientific McCarthyism has a chilling effect on research and could be holding America back from major scientific breakthroughs. If we could figure out cold fusion, we'd have a clean, cheap energy source that would last for an incredibly long time. And that would mean less reliance on oil exporting countries, as well as a cleaner environment and a better standard of living. So even if some experts say it's a long shot, isn't it worth working towards? Yet the U.S. Department of Energy continues to tiptoe around the issue, and the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office refuses to grant a patent on any invention claiming cold fusion. That's almost a categorical denial of any research money for this important field. Further, getting an article on cold fusion published in any scientific journal is almost impossible. The scientific community is starting to look pretty regressive and reactionary. Saving Good Ideas "We have always been open to proposals that have scientific merit as determined by peer review," said the Energy Department's James Decker. But what happens when the peers in question might lose their hot fission research money if cold fusion were possible? Or consider the comments of an embittered Fleischmann to a Wired reporter in 1998: "What you have to ask yourself is who wants this discovery? Do you imagine the seven sisters [the world's top oil companies] want it? ... And do you really think that the Department of Defense wants electrochemists producing nuclear reactions in test tubes?" The answer is that Americans want a clean, cheap and abundant energy source if they can get it. And they certainly don't want some other country, potentially one with terrorists, to figure it out first. Bureaucracy in both the private and public sectors can kill good ideas. America needs a return to the days when renaissance men and women populated the field of scientific discovery. If the cold fusion issue is indicative of where scientific inquiry is today, creativity and thinking outside the bureaucratic box appear to be sorely needed. Our world depends on it. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Sonia Arrison, a TechNewsWorld columnist, is director of Technology Studies at the California-based Pacific Research Institute. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 8 14:45:40 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j08MjZs1008463; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 14:45:35 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j08MjXPg008438; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 14:45:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 14:45:33 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: The Big Science Chill Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 17:45:37 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: <_vt3TD.A.uDC.MKG4BB ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57262 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hey Harry, The article has its heart in the right place, but I call bullshit on this line. >The answer is that Americans want a clean, cheap and abundant energy source >if they can get it. Can you or the author provide any proof of such a claim? I'm just not seeing it here. I mean, would we be electing oil company executives to the White House if we felt so? Also, the article really drops its trousers on this line. >the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office refuses to grant a patent on any >invention claiming cold fusion. That's almost a categorical denial of any >research money for this important field. This one fact explains the whole of the articles rhetorical questioning. Change this situation, and the lead paragraph would probably be as true for CF as for any other commercial endeavor. K. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 8 21:02:03 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0951wGj008860; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 21:01:58 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0951u1h008854; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 21:01:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 21:01:56 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2005 00:00:44 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: The Big Science Chill In-reply-to: To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57263 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Keith, You sound very cynical. The scientific climate may be chilly in the US, but in Canada you will get frost bite in 30 seconds if you mention the subject! ;-) I noticed that only two people from Canada attended the last CF conference, and I don't think they were scientists or engineers. Harry Keith Nagel at knagel gis.net wrote: > Hey Harry, > > The article has its heart in the right place, but I call bullshit > on this line. > >> The answer is that Americans want a clean, cheap and abundant energy source >> if they can get it. > > Can you or the author provide any proof of such a claim? I'm just > not seeing it here. I mean, would we be electing oil company > executives to the White House if we felt so? > > Also, the article really drops its trousers on this line. > >> the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office refuses to grant a patent on any >> invention claiming cold fusion. That's almost a categorical denial of any >> research money for this important field. > > This one fact explains the whole of the articles rhetorical questioning. > Change this situation, and the lead paragraph would probably be as true for CF > as > for any other commercial endeavor. > > K. > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 9 08:06:30 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j09G6HcV016186; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 08:06:18 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j09G5h3S015999; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 08:05:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 08:05:43 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=5q3BrdIhIswZ6Gm90Q9I1Hymu9XH3rR8avCcc/TBbdO2PFkciPYutfkPRie4VGsJD6ijxN73RJkgyn9OR3WnJN0WFDzQAdP3SR+DLWkR1crTPMZ8TvkVWrVRyGB++YXjD8Nq1hcS8LM3X4RioXDrBvKsUBVBcanhwIYnMhbWR7I= ; Message-ID: <20050109160535.58267.qmail web60310.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 08:05:35 -0800 (PST) From: Nick Reiter Subject: RE: Cathode plasma experiments report posted To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <20050107165450.26806.qmail web81105.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57264 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hello, all, Thanks to Jones and Keith for the supportive tech suggestions. First to address Jones' question re: the non-absorbing D2O. I was able to save a small amount - maybe 1 ml tops in a nalgene bottle with a good sealing lid. I checked it about a week ago, and it still SEEMS to have the same property, just not a whole lot of it to do much with, and it has labfloor crud in it. When I get back to it, I will need to just keep a lot more watchful eye on the solution physical properties. Also a very worthwhile notion is the use of a hypodermic needle as cathode. This excites me. I'm going to put this one up there at the front of the list, once I get back on this particular project. Which will probably be a couple of weeks yet, at least. I have to multiplex between about 4 different avocational diversions, plus I need to hit up my heavy water connection for another fix, and order some more K2CO3. Outside of Vort, a couple of suggestions have come in regarding some added variables, most notably the use of a red laser beam to illuminate the cathode and the idea of pulsing the applied power. Keith's comment about neutron detection is germane. The set up I have is pretty flippin' crude, and probably the most crude of all is my knowledge of just WHAT TYPES of neutrons I am (theoretically) supposed to be looking for. Rousy empiricist/experimentalist that I am. If I could cough up an old 1964 silver US dime, I could stick it in front of the GM tube, ala the Oak Ridge souvenir machine :) Seriously though, as neutron detection goes, I am in Kindergarten. Keep any good ideas coming, please. Thanks to all for their input! NR --- Jones Beene wrote: > > --- Keith Nagel wrote: > > > Can you calibrate the neutron detector? It's > > important to > > set some kind of limits for the ( so far it seems > ) > > null results. Perhaps someone can loan you a cup > > of neutrons to test with.... > > Rather than null, I would say incomplete. Let's take > the contrarian (and optimistic viewpoint) that there > have been some neutrons but they are extremely low > energy "stirpping" neutrons. > > There is no way they are going to get out of that > much > heavy water, but with the approx 15 min decay time, > they can still be found long after the cell is shut > off. This has the distinct triple advantage of > allowing a detector to be placed in the cell itself, > plus it eliminates almost all other possibilities, > plus since it is now beta decay (albeit low energy) > and it allows much more flexibility in the kind of > detector, plastic scintillator or film, even a > photography light meter could be rigged up. The > traditional CD geiger counter won't work however. > > > > BTW, is Bounty even _rated_ for heavy water > spills? > > I have it on good authority that Rosie says the > quicker-picker-upper can sop up any yellow liquid in > 30 seconds; so if it is resisting, you know what to > do... > > Jones > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 9 11:20:32 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j09JKJcV015564; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 11:20:19 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j09JKHKM015546; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 11:20:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 11:20:17 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: The Big Science Chill Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 14:20:18 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: <52s38B.A.2yD.wPY4BB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57265 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Harry. You write: >You sound very cynical. No, it's a sincere question. I feel rather like I'm in one of those psychological experiments where the proctor and a few confederates are trying to convince someone that the air is green. "Don't you see the green air? I do" "And so do I" "What's wrong with you that you don't see the green air?" This goes on for awhile, and sure enough most folks will agree that the air _is_ a bit greenish after all... Anyway, I'm just not seeing any evidence that anything close to a tiny number of US citizens are actually concerned about energy issues. Maybe it's a big issue in Canada, I don't know. But here's just one example, Total SUV sales to date ~24 millions Total Hybrid car sales to date ~.5 million Show me otherwise, I'd love to be wrong about this. K. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 9 11:42:50 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j09JgfcV023888; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 11:42:41 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j09JgelS023873; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 11:42:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 11:42:40 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Cathode plasma experiments report posted Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 14:42:55 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <20050109160535.58267.qmail web60310.mail.yahoo.com> X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57266 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hey Nick, The tragic thing is, you may be getting positive results RIGHT NOW but you may not be able to see them. As you say, the issue of what kind of neutrons you are supposed to be detecting is a problem. You could switch to calorimetry, but given the electrode erosion problems combined with the rather difficult input energy measurement some kind of particle detector really looks like the lesser evil. BTW, I'll be happy to try something here if you get some results; as you know I'm all set up with the fixings except for the neutron detector. Frankly, if what comes out of this is a good cheap DIY neutron detector then I'll deem the project a great success even if the results are null. The key is doing the calibration. Come on, I know there are/were some list members with this kind of expertise, we need a cheap and legal source of neutron flux. Thanks for posting Nick, it's always a terrific pleasure to read experimental reports like this. K. -----Original Message----- From: Nick Reiter [mailto:avalonbiker yahoo.com] Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2005 11:06 AM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: Cathode plasma experiments report posted Hello, all, Thanks to Jones and Keith for the supportive tech suggestions. First to address Jones' question re: the non-absorbing D2O. I was able to save a small amount - maybe 1 ml tops in a nalgene bottle with a good sealing lid. I checked it about a week ago, and it still SEEMS to have the same property, just not a whole lot of it to do much with, and it has labfloor crud in it. When I get back to it, I will need to just keep a lot more watchful eye on the solution physical properties. Also a very worthwhile notion is the use of a hypodermic needle as cathode. This excites me. I'm going to put this one up there at the front of the list, once I get back on this particular project. Which will probably be a couple of weeks yet, at least. I have to multiplex between about 4 different avocational diversions, plus I need to hit up my heavy water connection for another fix, and order some more K2CO3. Outside of Vort, a couple of suggestions have come in regarding some added variables, most notably the use of a red laser beam to illuminate the cathode and the idea of pulsing the applied power. Keith's comment about neutron detection is germane. The set up I have is pretty flippin' crude, and probably the most crude of all is my knowledge of just WHAT TYPES of neutrons I am (theoretically) supposed to be looking for. Rousy empiricist/experimentalist that I am. If I could cough up an old 1964 silver US dime, I could stick it in front of the GM tube, ala the Oak Ridge souvenir machine :) Seriously though, as neutron detection goes, I am in Kindergarten. Keep any good ideas coming, please. Thanks to all for their input! NR --- Jones Beene wrote: > > --- Keith Nagel wrote: > > > Can you calibrate the neutron detector? It's > > important to > > set some kind of limits for the ( so far it seems > ) > > null results. Perhaps someone can loan you a cup > > of neutrons to test with.... > > Rather than null, I would say incomplete. Let's take > the contrarian (and optimistic viewpoint) that there > have been some neutrons but they are extremely low > energy "stirpping" neutrons. > > There is no way they are going to get out of that > much > heavy water, but with the approx 15 min decay time, > they can still be found long after the cell is shut > off. This has the distinct triple advantage of > allowing a detector to be placed in the cell itself, > plus it eliminates almost all other possibilities, > plus since it is now beta decay (albeit low energy) > and it allows much more flexibility in the kind of > detector, plastic scintillator or film, even a > photography light meter could be rigged up. The > traditional CD geiger counter won't work however. > > > > BTW, is Bounty even _rated_ for heavy water > spills? > > I have it on good authority that Rosie says the > quicker-picker-upper can sop up any yellow liquid in > 30 seconds; so if it is resisting, you know what to > do... > > Jones > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 9 12:32:36 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j09KWUGj026408; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 12:32:30 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j09KWDLK026122; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 12:32:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 12:32:13 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2005 15:31:21 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: The Big Science Chill In-reply-to: To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57267 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Perhaps the majority (~60%) of Americans aren't concerned. However, I would say the rest of Americans are concerned. The popularity of Fahrenheit 911 is a good example. Harry Keith Nagel at knagel gis.net wrote: > Hi Harry. > > You write: >> You sound very cynical. > > No, it's a sincere question. I feel rather like I'm in one > of those psychological experiments where the proctor and a > few confederates are trying to convince someone that the > air is green. "Don't you see the green air? I do" "And so > do I" "What's wrong with you that you don't see the green air?" > This goes on for awhile, and sure enough most folks will > agree that the air _is_ a bit greenish after all... > > Anyway, I'm just not seeing any evidence that anything close > to a tiny number of US citizens are actually concerned about > energy issues. Maybe it's a big issue in Canada, I don't > know. But here's just one example, > > Total SUV sales to date ~24 millions > Total Hybrid car sales to date ~.5 million > > Show me otherwise, I'd love to be wrong about this. > > K. > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 9 12:52:24 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j09KqGGj000386; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 12:52:16 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j09KqF3R000361; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 12:52:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 12:52:15 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050109125552.02820488 mail.dlsi.net> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2005 12:56:50 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: The Big Science Chill In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57268 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 12:31 PM 1/9/2005, you wrote: >Perhaps the majority (~60%) of Americans aren't concerned. > >However, I would say the rest of Americans are concerned. >The popularity of Fahrenheit 911 is a good example. Apathy rules I guess. Aw, who cares, anyway! s From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 9 13:47:24 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j09LlFGj020833; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 13:47:15 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j09LlDUF020807; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 13:47:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 13:47:13 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 13:47:07 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Funny comment from Brian Josephson In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050107163232.02a6bac8 pop.mindspring.com> Message-ID: References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050107163232.02a6bac8 pop.mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <6i4MLD.A.DFF.gZa4BB ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57269 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Fri, 7 Jan 2005, Jed Rothwell wrote: > "Cold Fusion gets lukewarm backing" > > 1. "the reviewers say they remain unconvinced about the reality of cold > fusion ..." > 2. "... indeed, a third of the reviewers believe that the phenomenon could > potentially create excess power" > > Invent a logic system for which these two statements are consistent with > each other, and use it to prove that pigs can fly. Lol! Already accomplished. It's called "Democracy." If 50.0001 of a group wants "black," and 49.9999% of the group wants "white," then we can say that the entire group actually wants black. Right? Ah, inspiration! : THE EMPEROR'S VISIBLE CLOTHES billb 2005 The Emperor's experts talked him into going nude in front of a large crowd. Fortunately the entire crowd talked themselves into being able to see the clothes which were not there. And so the clothes began to actually exist. Unfortunately there was one little kid who loudly asked why the Emperor was naked. Nobody could hear him. After all, "reality" isn't an absolute, instead "reality" is determined by expert concensus. Majority rules. And if some little kid says something that we don't want to hear, why, he really didn't say anything at all. In fact, no acoustic waves even came out of his mouth nor vibrated any eardrums. In fact, what little kid are you talking about? Are you some kind of lying crackpot Woo-Woo or something? There's no little kid here. Well, there is some meat and broken bones in the middle of that crowd of adults who are all jumping up and down for some reason. But that's not a little kid, so maybe you are one of those lying scumbag Woo-Woo crackpots who needs the attention of this large crowd. We all REALLY HATE woo-woos, you know. Understand? Good. I thought you might. Now let's all take up a collection to reward the Emperor's clothing designers. The Emperor didn't pay them nearly enough. The end. (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 9 15:11:52 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j09NBkGj022819; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 15:11:46 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j09NBfMX022756; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 15:11:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 15:11:41 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002a01c4f6a0$90e89b60$0100007f xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: the big science chill. Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 17:10:58 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0026_01C4F66E.2FDB1960"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.5 required=4.0 tests=HTML_20_30,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57270 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0026_01C4F66E.2FDB1960 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0027_01C4F66E.2FDB1960" ------=_NextPart_001_0027_01C4F66E.2FDB1960 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankSteve, living in an oil state like Texas, I am painfully aware of = the apathy..or.. err.. dispair of our leadership in the DOE. This Gov't = bureaucracy gleens $ 20bil plus per year from a special tax on petroleum = to fund themselves. In Washington, it becomes a game of musical chairs each 4 years to see = who runs DOE. BUT politics ,not energy is the name of the game. Lower that estimate to 10% and be closer to the number that are actually = concerned. Consider recent events in Tollways. Canada signed an agreement with = Cintra of Spain for the tollway . Cintra jacked up the fees. Canada sued = and lost. The fine print of the contract won for Cintra. Canadian = officials answered they paid bucks to write a 600 page contract with NO = LOOPHOLES,, we waz robbed!! Meanwhile Cintra of Canada gets to poormouth = they lost $ 98 mil last year to cover the gambit. =20 Fast forward to Chicago where the mayor signed a deal to convey the = south tollbridge to Cintra for 3 bil.. err.. lets say 1.2 bil , the rest went into an escrow account guaranteeing = the lease. Remember now the tollbridge was a" cash cow" for Chicago... = but the city crys they were only trying to balance the budget and needed = a cash infusion.. there goes 50 years of toll revenue . Fast forward to Texas where no man's life nor property is safe when the = Texas Leg. is in session. Gov.Perry signed a deal with Cintra for a 300 = mile tollway to Mexico. Cintra will put up the money 8 bil ( give or = take 50 bil ) and own a megahighway 1200 ft wide, with train tracks, = pipelines , truck lanes, passenger lanes and overhead power lines. All = the right of way and access with be controlled and owned to lease to = businesses. In modern economics it is called " revenue streams".Look it = up at www.corridorwatch.org .Interesting that Cintra of Spain "ain't " = got that kinda money.. but not to worry.. the State of Texas agreed to = underwrite the bonds so that UBS Warburg could "float" them. Who's the local Texas agent for UBS Warburg of Europe ??.. our esteemed = ex senator Phil Gramm ,that was once the chairman of the senate banking = committee ,of course. the man, single most responsible for a 34 1/2 % = rate on credit cards. Don't you love the way business is conducted in = Texas. Whose cynical ? The guy thats gonna be cynical will be the bondholder = when the State responds with ..I never knew ya!! Or as Jesse Jones once = said.. theres way and then theres ways. Oh, I forgot to mention ,, you lost out if you didn't purchase a = supersize SUV before yearend. You could have purchased a Hummer for 65K = and wrote it off in less than 2 years.. IRS gave you the chance and what = did you do with the opportunity ? In Washington its called stimulating = the economy !!. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0027_01C4F66E.2FDB1960 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Steve, living in an oil state like Texas, I am = painfully=20 aware of the apathy..or.. err.. dispair of our leadership in the DOE. = This Gov't=20 bureaucracy gleens $ 20bil plus per year from a special tax on petroleum = to fund=20 themselves.
In Washington, it becomes a game of musical = chairs each=20 4 years to see who runs DOE. BUT politics ,not energy is the name of the = game.
 
Lower that estimate to 10% and be closer to = the number=20 that are actually concerned.
 
Consider recent events in Tollways. Canada = signed an=20 agreement with Cintra of Spain for the tollway . Cintra jacked up the = fees.=20 Canada sued and lost. The fine print of the contract won for Cintra. = Canadian=20 officials answered they paid bucks to write a 600 page contract = with NO=20 LOOPHOLES,, we waz robbed!! Meanwhile Cintra of Canada gets to = poormouth=20 they lost $ 98 mil last year to cover the gambit.
 
Fast forward to Chicago where the mayor signed = a deal to=20 convey the south tollbridge to Cintra for 3 bil.. err..
 lets say 1.2 bil , the rest went into an = escrow=20 account guaranteeing the lease. Remember now the tollbridge was a" cash = cow" for=20 Chicago... but the city crys they were only trying to = balance the=20 budget and needed a cash infusion.. there goes 50 years of toll revenue=20 .
 
Fast forward to Texas where no man's life nor = property=20 is safe when the Texas Leg. is in session. Gov.Perry signed a deal with = Cintra=20 for a 300 mile tollway to Mexico. Cintra will put up the money 8 bil ( = give or=20 take  50 bil ) and own  a megahighway 1200 ft wide, with train = tracks,=20 pipelines , truck lanes, passenger lanes and overhead power lines. All = the right=20 of way and access with be controlled and owned to lease to businesses. = In modern=20 economics it is called " revenue streams".Look it up at www.corridorwatch.org =  .Interesting=20 that Cintra of Spain "ain't " got that kinda money.. but not to worry.. = the=20 State of Texas agreed to underwrite the bonds so that UBS Warburg could = "float"=20 them.
Who's the local Texas agent for UBS Warburg of = Europe=20 ??.. our esteemed ex senator Phil Gramm ,that was once the chairman of = the=20 senate banking committee ,of course. the man, single most responsible = for a 34=20 1/2 % rate on credit cards. Don't you love the way business is conducted = in=20 Texas.
 
Whose cynical ? The guy thats gonna be = cynical will=20 be the bondholder when the State responds with ..I never knew = ya!! Or=20 as Jesse Jones once said.. theres way and then theres=20 ways.
 
Oh, I forgot to mention ,, you lost out if you = didn't=20 purchase a supersize SUV before yearend. You could have purchased a = Hummer for=20 65K and wrote it off in less than 2 years.. IRS gave you the chance and = what did=20 you do with the opportunity ? In Washington its called stimulating the = economy=20 !!.
 
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_0027_01C4F66E.2FDB1960-- ------=_NextPart_000_0026_01C4F66E.2FDB1960 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <002501c4f6a0$7a7402c0$0100007f xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0026_01C4F66E.2FDB1960-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 9 15:16:30 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j09NGKGj024288; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 15:16:20 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j09NGIPI024270; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 15:16:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 15:16:18 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050109151818.0281d230 mail.dlsi.net> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2005 15:21:00 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: Funny comment from Brian Josephson In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050107163232.02a6bac8 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57271 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > >Lol! Already accomplished. It's called "Democracy." > >If 50.0001 of a group wants "black," and 49.9999% of the group wants >"white," then we can say that the entire group actually wants black. Right? >Ah, inspiration! : > > THE EMPEROR'S VISIBLE CLOTHES billb 2005 Stellar prose billb. Further to your discussion of democracy, If 50.0001 of a group sees a beach ball as "black," and 49.9999% of a group sees it as "white," then what is typically said is that the ball is black, Right? s From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 9 15:35:31 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j09NZNGj031649; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 15:35:24 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j09NZMAE031637; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 15:35:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 15:35:22 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001401c4f6a3$e1d82ec0$e9027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: funny comments Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 17:35:19 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0010_01C4F671.96C07870"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.5 required=4.0 tests=HTML_40_50,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: <5PnvoC.A.NuH.6-b4BB ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57272 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C4F671.96C07870 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0011_01C4F671.96C07870" ------=_NextPart_001_0011_01C4F671.96C07870 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankIn west Texas there lived two tribes of natives. One tribe had red = feet and never told lies. One tribe had green feet and never told the = truth. Question>> If you were traveling in the area during the darkest night = and encountered a tribe in the dark.. Phrased correctly, what single question could be posed to the tribe in = the darkest night that would be answered in such a way that you could = determine if they were lying or telling the truth? Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0011_01C4F671.96C07870 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
In west Texas there lived two tribes of = natives. One=20 tribe had red feet and never told lies. One tribe had green feet and = never told=20 the truth.
Question>> If you were traveling in the = area=20 during the darkest night and encountered a tribe in the = dark..
 Phrased correctly, what single question = could be=20 posed to the tribe in the darkest night that would be answered in such a = way=20 that you could determine if they were lying or telling the = truth?
 
Richard
 
 

 

------=_NextPart_001_0011_01C4F671.96C07870-- ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C4F671.96C07870 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000f01c4f6a3$e151c0b0$e9027841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C4F671.96C07870-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 9 15:35:44 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j09NZZGj031804; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 15:35:35 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j09NZX4S031777; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 15:35:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 15:35:33 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050109152842.028323d8 mail.dlsi.net> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2005 15:40:15 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: the big science chill. In-Reply-To: <002a01c4f6a0$90e89b60$0100007f xptower> References: <002a01c4f6a0$90e89b60$0100007f xptower> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57273 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Oh my goodness.... looks like you've got some clear and horrific facts here.... Yes, I'm familiar with "revenue streams." I've been in IT for 17 years and seen the major emphasis and push for the big boys in IT to develop them in services once they realized that hardware and software sales were losing margins and had little future. I can't help but wonder, what does this Cintra story all mean? The majority of people are sheep? They want to be sheep? They don't know they are sheep? They like taking it from the wolves? Have they been programmed to such an extent that they don't care about disturbing facts? s From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 9 18:23:50 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0A2NhGj004483; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 18:23:43 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0A2NfTE004473; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 18:23:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 18:23:41 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Baronvolsung aol.com Message-ID: <19a.2d91378c.2f134114 aol.com> Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 21:23:16 EST Subject: Light Body Water Crystal Inteface and Connection To: Baronvolsung aol.com, ThomasClark123@aol.com, NEO-ROUNDTABLE yahoogroups.com, a-albionic@yahoogroups.com, vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_19a.2d91378c.2f134114_boundary" X-Mailer: 6.0 sub 10578 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57274 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --part1_19a.2d91378c.2f134114_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Light Body Water Crystal Interface and Connection All body cells have water crystal cells in them, and water collects neutrino radiation, so that the light body - photonic plasma neutrino spiritual and aura light scalar electrical and magnetic longitudinal wave body cell matrix that forms the physical bodies phenotype, and holds memories, may form in the image of a water crystal star hexagon cell crystal mesh matrix in order to connect with the water H20 star hexagon crystal mesh in each water cell in the body to then connect with the helical torus mesh of the genes to interface with and form the genetic traits, and the basic amino acids used to build the body cells, organs, and overall body phenotype, which creates a dodecahedron interface between the two hexagon light body cells and the water body cells and between the water/light body cells and the gene cells. We may also create a 3D holographic image of our ideal light body phenotype form in an animation program by using hexagon meshes down to the size of water hexagon crystals, so that we can also cause an animated scalar wave longitudinal electrical and magnetic vortex neutrino plasma holographic image created from our computer animated body scalar wave holographic projectors to be projected onto our natural physical body to connect with the water crystals to also form the phenotypic image of our body and connect with the genes to express different gene traits of preference and to reprogram our light body memories and phenotypic cell forms by also connecting with the light body, which also may be how governments create beam weapons holograms projected onto persons bodies to posses persons bodies to change their physical form into other forms and to remotely control them. Baron Von Volsung, www.rhfweb.com\baron, Email: www.rhfweb.com\emailform.html President Thomas D. Clark, Email: www.rhfweb.com\emailform.html, Personal Web Page: www.rhfweb.com\personal New Age Production's Inc., www.rhfweb.com\newage Star Haven Community Services, at www.rhfweb.com\sh. Radiation Health Foundation Trust at www.rhfweb.com Making a difference one person at a time Get informed. Inform others. --part1_19a.2d91378c.2f134114_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Light Body Wa= ter Crystal Interface and Connection

All body cells have water crystal cells in them, and water collects neut= rino radiation, so that the light body - photonic plasma neutrino spiritual=20= and aura light scalar electrical and magnetic longitudinal wave body cell ma= trix that forms the physical bodies phenotype, and holds memories, may form=20= in the image of a water crystal star hexagon cell crystal mesh matrix in ord= er to connect with the water H20 star hexagon crystal mesh in each water cel= l in the body to then connect with the helical torus mesh of the genes to in= terface with and form the genetic traits, and the basic amino acids used to=20= build the body cells, organs, and overall body phenotype, which creates a do= decahedron interface between the two hexagon light body cells and the water=20= body cells and between the water/light body cells and the gene cells.  =  

We may also create a 3D holographic image of our ideal light body phenot= ype form in an animation program by using hexagon meshes down to the size of= water hexagon crystals, so that we can also cause an animated scalar wave l= ongitudinal electrical and magnetic vortex neutrino plasma holographic image= created from our computer animated body scalar wave holographic projectors=20= to be projected onto our natural physical body to connect with the water cry= stals to also form the phenotypic image of our body and connect with the gen= es to express different gene traits of preference and to reprogram our light= body memories and phenotypic cell forms by also connecting with the light b= ody, which also may be how governments create beam weapons holograms project= ed onto persons bodies to posses persons bodies to change their physical for= m into other forms and to remotely control them.=20

Baron Von Volsung, www.rhfweb.co= m\baron, Email: www.rhf= web.com\emailform.html=20
President Thomas D. Clark, Email: www.rhfweb.com\emailform.html,=20
Personal Web Page: www.rhfweb= .com\personal=20
New Age Production's Inc., www.= rhfweb.com\newage=20
Star Haven Community Services, at w= ww.rhfweb.com\sh.=20
Radiation Health Foundation Trust at = www.rhfweb.com=20

Making a difference one person at a time=20
Get informed. Inform others.=20

--part1_19a.2d91378c.2f134114_boundary-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 9 18:58:19 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0A2w9Gj018439; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 18:58:10 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0A2w8u1018430; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 18:58:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 18:58:08 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002601c4f6c0$320ad160$3a027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: the big science chill Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 20:57:57 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0022_01C4F68D.E62347F0"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.2 required=4.0 tests=HTML_50_60,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57275 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0022_01C4F68D.E62347F0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0023_01C4F68D.E627DBD0" ------=_NextPart_001_0023_01C4F68D.E627DBD0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankSteve, What does this Cintra story actually mean? Well , perhaps it means that Prof. Michael Hudson's article posted on = the www.globalresearch.ca entitled=20 "an insider spills the beans on ofshore banking centers " may be right on the money , or...err.. the funny money we now have in = our pockets to play with. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0023_01C4F68D.E627DBD0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Steve,
What does this Cintra story actually = mean?
 
Well , perhaps it means that Prof. Michael = Hudson's=20 article posted on the  www.globalresearch.ca  = entitled=20
 
"an insider spills the beans on ofshore = banking centers=20 "
 
may be right on the money , or...err.. the = funny money=20 we now have in our pockets to play with.
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_0023_01C4F68D.E627DBD0-- ------=_NextPart_000_0022_01C4F68D.E62347F0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <002101c4f6c0$306e3860$3a027841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0022_01C4F68D.E62347F0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 9 19:33:39 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0A3XSGj032299; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 19:33:28 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0A3XPia032219; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 19:33:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 19:33:25 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <41E1F782.5060608 pobox.com> Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2005 22:33:22 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.3) Gecko/20041007 Debian/1.7.3-5 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: funny comments References: <001401c4f6a3$e1d82ec0$e9027841 xptower> In-Reply-To: <001401c4f6a3$e1d82ec0$e9027841 xptower> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57276 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: RC Macaulay wrote: > In west Texas there lived two tribes of natives. One tribe had red feet > and never told lies. One tribe had green feet and never told the truth. > Question>> If you were traveling in the area during the darkest night > and encountered a tribe in the dark.. > Phrased correctly, what single question could be posed to the tribe in > the darkest night that would be answered in such a way that you could > determine if they were lying or telling the truth? There must be something missing. As stated, any question with a well-known answer fits the bill. "Is it dark tonight?" --> truthful tribe: "yes", lying tribe: "no" "What color would a red-footed native tell me his feet were?" --> truthful tribe answers "red", lying tribe answers "green" (or any other non-red color). Perhaps you meant to say "one tribe had red feet, the other had green; one tribe told the truth, the other lied" and then, without specifying which foot color went with truthfullness, ask how you could determine the color of their feet with a single yes-or-no question (again, on a dark night). Note, though, that in this case you can't determine whether they're a liar or truth-teller with the same, single question, since one question elicits just one bit of information, and the color/truthfullness mapping requires one bit itself, and which kind of native you're talking to requires a second bit. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 10 01:39:49 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0A9dg2o031816; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 01:39:42 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0A9de3D031806; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 01:39:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 01:39:40 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 00:48:09 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: funny comments Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57277 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 5:35 PM 1/9/5, RC Macaulay wrote: >BlankIn west Texas there lived two tribes of natives. One tribe had red >feet and never told lies. One tribe had green feet and never told the >truth. >Question>> If you were traveling in the area during the darkest night and >encountered a tribe in the dark.. > Phrased correctly, what single question could be posed to the tribe in >the darkest night that would be answered in such a way that you could >determine if they were lying or telling the truth? The question is: "If I asked the other tribe what color are their feet, what would they answer"? The answer will always contain a single lie. If the answer is red, then the true answer is green. The other tribe has green feet, thus never tells the truth. The tribe answering has red feet and always tells the truth. If the answer is green, then the true answer is red. The other tribe has red feet, thus never tells lies. The tribe answering has green feet and is always lying. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 10 20:23:20 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0B4NC2o007009; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 20:23:12 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0B4NAgC006897; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 20:23:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 20:23:10 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 23:21:56 -0500 Subject: New plastic can better convert solar energy From: Harry Veeder To: Message-ID: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id j0B4N62o006846 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57278 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/1105319242587_49?hub=Sci Tech New plastic can better convert solar energy Canadian Press TORONTO ‹ Researchers at the University of Toronto have invented an infrared-sensitive material that's five times more efficient at turning the sun's power into electrical energy than current methods. The discovery could lead to shirts and sweaters capable of recharging our cellphones and other wireless devices, said Ted Sargent, professor of electrical and computer engineering at the university. Sargent and other researchers combined specially-designed minute particles called quantum dots, three to four nanometres across, with a polymer to make a plastic that can detect energy in the infrared. Infrared light is not visible to the naked eye but it is what most remote controls emit, in small amounts, to control devices such as TVs and DVD players. It also contains a huge untapped resource -- despite the surge in popularity of solar cells in the 1990s, we still miss half of the sun's power, Sargent said. "In fact, there's enough power from the sun hitting the Earth every day to supply all the world's needs for energy 10,000 times over,'' Sargent said in a phone interview Sunday from Boston. He is currently a visiting professor of nanotechnology at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. Sargent said the new plastic composite is, in layman's terms, a layer of film that "catches'' solar energy. He said the film can be applied to any device, much like paint is coated on a wall. "We've done the same thing, but not with something that just sit there on the wall the way paint does,'' said the Ottawa native. "We've done it to make a device which actually harnesses the power in the room in the infrared.'' The film can convert up to 30 per cent of the sun's power into usable, electrical energy. Today's best plastic solar cells capture only about six per cent. Sargent said the advance would not only wipe away that inefficiency, but also resolve the hassle of recharging our countless gadgets and pave the way to a true wireless world. "We now have our cellphones and our BlackBerries and we're walking around without the need to plug in, in order to get our data,'' he said. "But we seem trapped at the moment in needing to plug in to get our power. That's because we charge these things up electrically, from the outlet. But there's actually huge amounts of power all around us coming from the sun.'' The film has the ability to be sprayed or woven into shirts so that our cuffs or collars could recharge our IPods, Sargent said. While that may sound like a Star Trek dream, venture capitalists are keen to Sargent's invention. Josh Wolfe, managing partner at Lux Capital, a New York City-based venture capital firm, said while such a luxury may be five years away, the technology knows no bounds. "When you have a material advance which literally materially changes the way that energy is absorbed and transmitted to our devices... somebody out there tinkering away in a bedroom or in a government lab is going to come up with a great idea for a new device that will shock us all,'' he said in a phone interview. "When the Internet was created nobody envisioned that the killer app (application) would be e-mail or instant messaging.'' Sargent's work was published in the online edition of Nature Materials on Sunday and will appear in its February issue. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 10 21:00:36 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0B5013a024694; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 21:00:26 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0B4UhpJ011952; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 20:30:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 20:30:43 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001201c4f796$443eadd0$0100007f xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: funny comments Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 22:29:44 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000E_01C4F763.E29B5470"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.8 required=4.0 tests=HTML_30_40,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: <2YqRGC.A.N6C.xZ14BB ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57279 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C4F763.E29B5470 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000F_01C4F763.E29B5470" ------=_NextPart_001_000F_01C4F763.E29B5470 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankYa havta love this group!! Stephen Lawrence is correct in his = view.. but.. think again of the question. The red foot tribe never lies and the green foot tribe never tells the = truth The question presupposes an attempt by the visitor to determine if the = tribe is red foot or green foot using the knowledge of their respective = traits of lying or telling the truth by the color of their feet. The = lying green foot could answer yes and be lying to himself . In studying the concept of quadratic computing for the future, an = element of ethics interposes upon the thought process and must be a = component of the software. In the movie 2001 a space oddessy.. the computer named " Hal" lacked a = programmed ethics code. Ever notice the major businesses and government agencies all have a " = mission statement" posted BUT>> few have a statement of business ethics and conduct posted. Perhaps one day we will see business and government operated by an = ethics based computing system.=20 Richard ------=_NextPart_001_000F_01C4F763.E29B5470 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Ya havta love this group!!   Stephen = Lawrence=20 is correct in his view.. but..  think again of the = question.
 
The red foot tribe never lies and the green = foot tribe=20 never tells the truth
 
The question presupposes an attempt by the = visitor to=20 determine if the tribe is red foot or green foot using the knowledge of = their=20 respective traits of lying or telling the truth by the color of their=20 feet. The lying green foot could answer yes and be lying to himself = .
 
In studying the concept of quadratic computing = for the=20 future, an element of ethics interposes upon the thought process and = must be a=20 component of the software.
 
In the movie 2001 a space oddessy.. the = computer named "=20 Hal" lacked a programmed ethics code.
 
Ever notice the major businesses and = government agencies=20 all have a " mission statement" posted BUT>>
few have a statement of business ethics and = conduct=20 posted.
 
Perhaps one day we will see business and = government=20 operated by an ethics based computing system.
 
Richard
 

 

------=_NextPart_001_000F_01C4F763.E29B5470-- ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C4F763.E29B5470 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000d01c4f796$2d313090$0100007f xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C4F763.E29B5470-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 10 23:39:42 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0B7dS2o023380; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 23:39:29 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0B7dQeF023338; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 23:39:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 23:39:26 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 22:47:58 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: funny comments Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57280 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:29 PM 1/10/5, RC Macaulay wrote: >BlankYa havta love this group!! Stephen Lawrence is correct in his >view.. but.. think again of the question. > >The red foot tribe never lies and the green foot tribe never tells the truth > >The question presupposes an attempt by the visitor to determine if the >tribe is red foot or green foot using the knowledge of their respective >traits of lying or telling the truth by the color of their feet. The lying >green foot could answer yes and be lying to himself . It is easy to tell who is whom, even if they will only answer yes or no, provided the red foot tribe never lies and the green foot tribe never tells the truth, and assuming of course you get an answer. The question for yes or no answers is: "If I asked the other tribe in the region if their feet are red, what would they say"? The response will always contain a single lie. If the response is yes, then the true answer is no. The other tribe has green feet, thus never tells the truth. The tribe answering has red feet and always tells the truth. If the response is no, then the true answer is yes. The other tribe has red feet, thus never tells lies. The tribe answering has green feet and is always lying. Now, if the green foot lies to himself and thereby tells the truth, this denies the fundamental premise of the problem that the green foot tribe never tells the truth. The problem is then merely nonsense. Might as well pretend they are all senile. If the green foot tribe in fact never tells the truth, and the red foot tribe never lies, and they know a simple fundamental fact like which tribe is which, then the problem is meaningful and it is easy to tell which tribe is present with one yes or no question. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 10 23:56:40 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0B7uV2o028994; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 23:56:31 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0B7uUdf028978; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 23:56:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 23:56:30 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <4AF254D8-63A6-11D9-88B7-000393596C52 earthlink.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Randy Souther Subject: Re: funny comments Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 23:56:25 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57281 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Why don't you just ask them if it is dark or not? Randy On Jan 10, 2005, at 11:47 PM, Horace Heffner wrote: > At 10:29 PM 1/10/5, RC Macaulay wrote: >> BlankYa havta love this group!! Stephen Lawrence is correct in his >> view.. but.. think again of the question. >> >> The red foot tribe never lies and the green foot tribe never tells >> the truth >> >> The question presupposes an attempt by the visitor to determine if the >> tribe is red foot or green foot using the knowledge of their >> respective >> traits of lying or telling the truth by the color of their feet. The >> lying >> green foot could answer yes and be lying to himself . > > > It is easy to tell who is whom, even if they will only answer yes or > no, > provided the red foot tribe never lies and the green foot tribe never > tells > the truth, and assuming of course you get an answer. > > The question for yes or no answers is: "If I asked the other tribe in > the > region if their feet are red, what would they say"? > > The response will always contain a single lie. > > If the response is yes, then the true answer is no. The other tribe > has > green feet, thus never tells the truth. The tribe answering has red > feet > and always tells the truth. > > If the response is no, then the true answer is yes. The other tribe > has > red feet, thus never tells lies. The tribe answering has green feet > and is > always lying. > > Now, if the green foot lies to himself and thereby tells the truth, > this > denies the fundamental premise of the problem that the green foot tribe > never tells the truth. The problem is then merely nonsense. Might as > well > pretend they are all senile. If the green foot tribe in fact never > tells > the truth, and the red foot tribe never lies, and they know a simple > fundamental fact like which tribe is which, then the problem is > meaningful > and it is easy to tell which tribe is present with one yes or no > question. > > Regards, > > Horace Heffner > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 11 00:26:42 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0B8QS2o009541; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 00:26:29 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0B8QRle009523; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 00:26:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 00:26:27 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 03:24:40 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: funny comments In-reply-to: To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57282 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The foot colour 'puzzle' reminds me of some drawings by Escher. Harry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 11 01:38:12 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0B9c42o004640; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 01:38:04 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0B9c1bG004614; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 01:38:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 01:38:01 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 00:46:33 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: funny comments Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57283 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:56 PM 1/10/5, Randy Souther wrote: >Why don't you just ask them if it is dark or not? > >Randy Here is the problem Richard posed: At 5:35 PM 1/9/5, RC Macaulay wrote: >BlankIn west Texas there lived two tribes of natives. One tribe had red >feet and never told lies. One tribe had green feet and never told the >truth. >Question>> If you were traveling in the area during the darkest night and >encountered a tribe in the dark.. > Phrased correctly, what single question could be posed to the tribe in >the darkest night that would be answered in such a way that you could >determine if they were lying or telling the truth? > >Richard Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 11 05:07:16 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0BD742o009060; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 05:07:04 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0BD71Be009040; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 05:07:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 05:07:01 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=LolZPdOvBZQw2PAeFIc2oHOO/dq1MtXQoefCS57AdXQBiboaoOsxxtrcJGm+87S9; Message-ID: <410-22005121112651220 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Spring Constants, Energy & Fusion Barrier Forces Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 06:06:51 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940b17414d20c5de31b14606088c55e0d4d350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.77 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57284 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII http://id.mind.net/~zona/mstm/physics/mechanics/energy/springPotentialEnergy/springPotentialEnergy.html Since the repulsive electrostatic barrier force (F) = Z1*Z2 * kq^2/R^2 = 2.304e-28 newtons (if Z1 and Z2 = 1.0, protons and deuterons) at 1.0 meter separation (R) = 1.0e-14 meters it will be 2.304 newtons. However, 2He4 + 2He4 -----> 4Be8 - 93 KeV = 1.488e-14 newton-meter (joule) repulsive force at separation distance R = 1.0e-14 meters the repulsive force will be 1.488e-14/1.0e-14 = 1.488 newtons.. 2He4 + 2He4 + 2He4 -----> 6C12 + 7.262 MeV = - 1.16e-12 newton-meter (joule) attractive force equal 116.2/2 newtons at separation distance R = 1.0e-14 meters. Or, 2He4 + 2He4 + 2He4 + 2He4 -----> 8O16 + 14.42 MeV = 2.272e-12 newton-meter (joule) attractive force equal 227.2/3 newtons at separation distance R = 1.0e-13 meters. This indicates that the magnetic "solenoid effect" (or strong force) of multiple quarks/solenoid turns counteracts the electrostatic repulsive force (when the magnetic dipole fields happen to be aligned to attract. There are three of these "turns/coils" in each proton (Z1) of charge q, seven in each deuteron (Z1) 10 in 2He3, (Z2) and 14 in each 2He4 (Z2). This suggests that heavier elements (or protons or deuterons -heavier elements) can undergo fusion easier than the P-P or D-D reactions, for instance the D + 2He3 reaction cross section is close to the D +T both are higher than D-D. I'll figure it out in the Spring. :-) Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
 
Since the repulsive electrostatic barrier force (F) = Z1*Z2 * kq^2/R^2 = 2.304e-28 newtons (if
Z1 and Z2 = 1.0, protons and deuterons) at 1.0 meter separation (R) = 1.0e-14 meters it will be 2.304 newtons.
 
However, 2He4 + 2He4 -----> 4Be8 - 93 KeV = 1.488e-14 newton-meter (joule) repulsive force
at separation distance R = 1.0e-14 meters the repulsive force will be 1.488e-14/1.0e-14 = 1.488 newtons..
 
2He4 + 2He4 + 2He4 -----> 6C12 + 7.262 MeV = - 1.16e-12 newton-meter (joule) attractive force
equal 116.2/2 newtons at separation distance R = 1.0e-14 meters.
 
Or, 2He4 + 2He4 + 2He4 + 2He4 -----> 8O16 + 14.42 MeV  = 2.272e-12 newton-meter (joule) attractive
force equal 227.2/3 newtons at separation distance R = 1.0e-13 meters.
 
This indicates that the magnetic "solenoid  effect" (or strong force) of multiple quarks/solenoid turns
counteracts the electrostatic repulsive force (when the magnetic dipole fields happen to be aligned
to attract.  There are three of these "turns/coils" in each proton (Z1) of charge q, seven in each deuteron (Z1)
10 in 2He3, (Z2) and 14 in each 2He4 (Z2).
 
This suggests that heavier elements (or protons or deuterons -heavier elements) can undergo fusion easier
than the P-P or D-D reactions, for instance the D + 2He3 reaction cross section is close to the D +T both are
higher than D-D.
 
I'll figure it out in the Spring.   :-)
 
Frederick

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 11 05:40:06 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0BDdx2o022877; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 05:39:59 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0BDdwWS022865; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 05:39:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 05:39:58 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001601c4f7e3$08b282d0$0100007f xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: Funny comments Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 07:39:15 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0012_01C4F7B0.A6B1EE40"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.5 required=4.0 tests=HTML_20_30,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57285 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C4F7B0.A6B1EE40 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0013_01C4F7B0.A6B1EE40" ------=_NextPart_001_0013_01C4F7B0.A6B1EE40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankThe Red feet never lie, the green feet never tell the truth. A = green foot need not give any answer, or he may give an answer in the = form of a question such as.. why do you ask?.. or any number of others.. = A question may be a method of shielding a lie. A skilled green foot, may in a trial courtroom setting ( or = congressional hearing or a University policy meeting) can tell the = truth nine different ways without lying. My purpose in the start of the thread was a quick study in an ethics = theme regarding writing quadradic computing software for ethics. One of = the most profound questions ever posed in recorded history on the = subject was asked of Jesus by Pilate.. " what is truth"? Was he lying = and knew the truth, or was it because he didn't know? Watching our government conduct business and the war in Iraq begs the = question.. what happens when our soldiers return,, gain maturity and = take leadership roles? We see the results of the hippy generation of the = Vietnam era personified by Clinton. Will a code of ethics be functional = for the emerging body of youth ? Or will they all become like skilled = green feet ? Basic and applied research depends on addressing questions = of this nature... i.e hot vs cold fusion. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0013_01C4F7B0.A6B1EE40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
The Red feet never lie, the green feet never = tell the=20 truth. A green foot need not give any answer, or he may give an = answer in=20 the form of a question such as.. why do you ask?.. or any number of = others..=20 A question may be a method of shielding a lie.
 
A skilled green foot, may in a trial = courtroom=20 setting ( or congressional hearing  or a University policy meeting) = can=20 tell the truth nine different ways without lying.
 
My purpose in the start of the thread was a = quick study=20 in an ethics theme regarding writing quadradic computing software for = ethics.=20 One of the most profound questions ever posed in recorded history on the = subject=20 was asked of Jesus by Pilate.. " what is = truth"? =20 Was he lying and knew the truth, or was it because he didn't = know?
 
Watching our government conduct business and = the war in=20 Iraq begs the question.. what happens when our soldiers return,, gain = maturity=20 and take leadership roles? We see the results of the hippy generation of = the=20 Vietnam era personified by Clinton. Will a code of ethics be functional = for the=20 emerging body of youth ? Or will they all become like=20 skilled green feet ?  Basic and applied research depends = on=20 addressing questions of this nature... i.e hot vs cold = fusion.
 
Richard
------=_NextPart_001_0013_01C4F7B0.A6B1EE40-- ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C4F7B0.A6B1EE40 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <001101c4f7e2$f1402940$0100007f xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C4F7B0.A6B1EE40-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 11 09:45:40 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0BHjW2o021814; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 09:45:32 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0BHjPQW021627; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 09:45:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 09:45:25 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 08:53:34 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Funny comments Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57286 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 7:39 AM 1/11/5, RC Macaulay wrote: >BlankThe Red feet never lie, the green feet never tell the truth. A green >foot need not give any answer, or he may give an answer in the form of a >question such as.. why do you ask?.. or any number of others.. A question >may be a method of shielding a lie. > >A skilled green foot, may in a trial courtroom setting ( or congressional >hearing or a University policy meeting) can tell the truth nine different >ways without lying. OK, so the problem *is* then merely nonsense. > >My purpose in the start of the thread was a quick study in an ethics theme >regarding writing quadradic computing software for ethics. Fooled me. I thought it was a logic problem! Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 11 10:07:52 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0BI7i2o005175; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 10:07:44 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0BI7gsj005157; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 10:07:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 10:07:42 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=EkwlOg3oq7Ln5xl4euH4vK5qiE0c/UrpDdic0x54nliZzdgJZtSjyYXglghVVXfHaW49JEOTkHiH7JUnrKM3wENyQeLVKj7vyZY713V0RILP2XwE2kIf5jC1uL0yNz5Z4BW27w4CY0ZDkpEDHQJeUCWzsdTboaZFdA4pQp/jqsQ= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 11:07:40 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Funny comments In-Reply-To: <001601c4f7e3$08b282d0$0100007f xptower> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <001601c4f7e3$08b282d0$0100007f xptower> Resent-Message-ID: <2cdpXB.A.hQB.uXB5BB ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57287 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: where did this come from? and take leadership roles? please, these guys coming back are making vietnam vets look like ex cops. its a new generation of homeless we're creating. and i find it funny that you talk of the lies of one president, without discussing the lies of the other. one lie was about a personal happenstance, one has caused the death of over 1000 americans, and the loss of limb of another 10k, and the death of 150k iraqis. sorry, id prefer the "hippy" lies. On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 07:39:15 -0600, RC Macaulay wrote: > The Red feet never lie, the green feet never tell the truth. A green foot > need not give any answer, or he may give an answer in the form of a question > such as.. why do you ask?.. or any number of others.. A question may be a > method of shielding a lie. > > A skilled green foot, may in a trial courtroom setting ( or congressional > hearing or a University policy meeting) can tell the truth nine different > ways without lying. > > My purpose in the start of the thread was a quick study in an ethics theme > regarding writing quadradic computing software for ethics. One of the most > profound questions ever posed in recorded history on the subject was asked > of Jesus by Pilate.. " what is truth"? Was he lying and knew the truth, or > was it because he didn't know? > > Watching our government conduct business and the war in Iraq begs the > question.. what happens when our soldiers return,, gain maturity and take > leadership roles? We see the results of the hippy generation of the Vietnam > era personified by Clinton. Will a code of ethics be functional for the > emerging body of youth ? Or will they all become like skilled green feet ? > Basic and applied research depends on addressing questions of this nature... > i.e hot vs cold fusion. > > Richard -- Fairy tales are more than true: not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten. -G.K. Chesterton From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 11 10:27:57 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0BIRl2o013794; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 10:27:48 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0BIRlUj013787; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 10:27:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 10:27:47 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 13:26:30 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: Funny comments In-reply-to: To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57288 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: "Give me liberty, or give me death!" -- Patrick Henry G.W. Bush's motto is: "Give them liberty, or give them death!" Harry Harry leaking pen at itsatrap gmail.com wrote: > where did this come from? and take leadership roles? please, these > guys coming back are making vietnam vets look like ex cops. its a new > generation of homeless we're creating. and i find it funny that you > talk of the lies of one president, without discussing the lies of the > other. one lie was about a personal happenstance, one has caused the > death of over 1000 americans, and the loss of limb of another 10k, and > the death of 150k iraqis. > > sorry, id prefer the "hippy" lies. > > > On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 07:39:15 -0600, RC Macaulay wrote: >> The Red feet never lie, the green feet never tell the truth. A green foot >> need not give any answer, or he may give an answer in the form of a question >> such as.. why do you ask?.. or any number of others.. A question may be a >> method of shielding a lie. >> >> A skilled green foot, may in a trial courtroom setting ( or congressional >> hearing or a University policy meeting) can tell the truth nine different >> ways without lying. >> >> My purpose in the start of the thread was a quick study in an ethics theme >> regarding writing quadradic computing software for ethics. One of the most >> profound questions ever posed in recorded history on the subject was asked >> of Jesus by Pilate.. " what is truth"? Was he lying and knew the truth, or >> was it because he didn't know? >> >> Watching our government conduct business and the war in Iraq begs the >> question.. what happens when our soldiers return,, gain maturity and take >> leadership roles? We see the results of the hippy generation of the Vietnam >> era personified by Clinton. Will a code of ethics be functional for the >> emerging body of youth ? Or will they all become like skilled green feet ? >> Basic and applied research depends on addressing questions of this nature... >> i.e hot vs cold fusion. >> >> Richard > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 11 11:03:12 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0BJ332o001923; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 11:03:03 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0BJ3181001899; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 11:03:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 11:03:01 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=tFwCviuX2HQPZKsnY8xXCGHAtCHllFnym0I4wotbL3c1kAtsQ5lPfcafVrg0Dkokr9/vZKpDhIhtxAZqSZlZ1MBC+hM5uuZVXA15WCB+qK6xkPLJiwcYpmdqq1YTW8iPG7q80uxDqgkplKT6mY14x3ayFrC7cMJR3L/uzRRZaOI= ; Message-ID: <20050111190250.75570.qmail web60302.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 11:02:50 -0800 (PST) From: Nick Reiter Subject: chew toys and eotvos To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57291 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: OK, the politics of antic semantics or semantic antics are getting threadbare. Time for a chew toy. One of the voices in the wilderness of gravity and antigravity research that I have never seen kicked around here on Vortex is the eternally running campaign by "Uncle Al" Schwartz having to do with chirality and parity violation. The page is still the same: http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/eotvos.htm I swapped mails with Al a couple years back. I thought that maybe some of what I was seeing at the time with minor weight transients in chiral crystals would fit his modelling. Al was skeptical, but honestly so, as I am myself. Anyone out there ever dip into Schwartz's work in a theoretical way, or try any experiments with chiral masses as he suggests? NR --- Harry Veeder wrote: > > > "Give me liberty, or give me death!" -- Patrick > Henry > > > G.W. Bush's motto is: > > "Give them liberty, or give them death!" > > Harry > > > > > > Harry > > leaking pen at itsatrap gmail.com wrote: > > > where did this come from? and take leadership > roles? please, these > > guys coming back are making vietnam vets look like > ex cops. its a new > > generation of homeless we're creating. and i find > it __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 11 11:18:19 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0BJI92o011151; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 11:18:09 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0BJI89x011128; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 11:18:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 11:18:08 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050111112053.027daa00 mail.dlsi.net> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 11:22:57 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: NEW ENERGY TIMES (tm) Jan. 10, 2005 -- Issue #8 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_-2088597437==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57292 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_-2088597437==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed NEW ENERGY TIMES (tm) Jan. 10, 2005 -- Issue #8 Your best source for cold fusion news and information. Copyright 2005 New Energy Times (tm) All photos by S.B. Krivit unless otherwise noted Available as follows: 1. E-mail version without images available to newsletter subscribers. 2. Full version on the Web: http://www.newenergytimes.com/news/8.htm (Note, if the images don't load properly from the Web, try the following: a) refresh your browser window or b)try Mozilla Firefox or c) download the PDF version.) 3. Full version in PDF: http://www.newenergytimes.com/news/8.pdf Steve --=====================_-2088597437==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" NEW ENERGY TIMES (tm)  Jan. 10, 2005 -- Issue #8
Your best source for cold fusion news and information.
Copyright 2005 New Energy Times (tm)
All photos by S.B. Krivit unless otherwise noted
Available as follows:
 
1. E-mail version without images available to newsletter subscribers.
2. Full version on the Web: http://www.newenergytimes.com/news/8.htm
(Note, if the images don't load properly from the Web, try the following: a) refresh your browser window or b)try Mozilla Firefox or c) download the PDF version.)
3. Full version in PDF: http://www.newenergytimes.com/news/8.pdf
 

Steve --=====================_-2088597437==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 11 11:47:34 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0BJlQ2o022157; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 11:47:26 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0BJlOkN022137; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 11:47:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 11:47:24 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050111143154.02a6a2f8 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:47:07 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: NEW ENERGY TIMES (tm) Jan. 10, 2005 -- Issue #8 In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050111112053.027daa00 mail.dlsi.net> References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050111112053.027daa00 mail.dlsi.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57293 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Item 23 in this newsletter, "Pathological Skepticism" by Bill Beaty, is incorrect about the nature and the chronology of the controversy between the Smithsonian and the Wright brothers. Langley himself had nothing to do with it. As far as I know, he accepted the Wright's claims. He died in 1906, long before the controversy erupted, and two years before the mainstream believed the Wright's claims. The controversy was caused by Langley's successors, especially Walcott, by Glen Curtiss (a commercial rival who used Langley's work to try to break the patent), and by A. G. Bell. Bell awarded the first Langley Medal to the Wrights in 1910, but in his speech he belittled their accomplishments, making it seem as if they were merely students of Langley. Bell was a great man but this was an ugly incident. In my opinion, Langley did not contribute much to the progress of aviation. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 11 11:54:25 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0BJsG2o024916; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 11:54:16 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0BJsEI0024894; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 11:54:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 11:54:14 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 13:54:46 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: boiling the space metric Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57294 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Professor Misho Koku, physics theoritician, well known for outrageous speculations regarding type 3, 4, and 5 civilizations, and transportation systems involving worm holes, topped even those speculations Sunday morning on C to C AM. Have any of you people ever heard of boiling space? If you heat what I assume is the space metric to 19 quatrillion electron volts. The professor speculates that it will be possible to build the equivalent of a microwave oven to do this. Given that this energy level is greater my several orders of magnitude than our largest particle accelerator, I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for this to happen. I decided to post this to see if it starts a thread From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 11 11:57:46 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0BJvd2o026595; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 11:57:40 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0BJvc80026573; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 11:57:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 11:57:38 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:56:22 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: chew toys and eotvos In-reply-to: <20050111190250.75570.qmail web60302.mail.yahoo.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57295 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Nick Reiter at avalonbiker yahoo.com wrote: > OK, the politics of antic semantics or semantic antics > are getting threadbare. Time for a chew toy. > > One of the voices in the wilderness of gravity and > antigravity research that I have never seen kicked > around here on Vortex is the eternally running > campaign by "Uncle Al" Schwartz having to do with > chirality and parity violation. The page is still the > same: > > http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/eotvos.htm > > I swapped mails with Al a couple years back. I > thought that maybe some of what I was seeing at the > time with minor weight transients in chiral crystals > would fit his modelling. Al was skeptical, but > honestly so, as I am myself. Anyone out there ever > dip into Schwartz's work in a theoretical way, or try > any experiments with chiral masses as he suggests? I think any measure of weight, is really a measure of inertia. Thus a change in weight is really a change in the inertia of the body. The only way to definitely measure a change in gravity is to measure the time of fall from a given height. As you can see I prefer 'anti-inertia' research to 'anti-gravity' research. Harry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 11 11:59:05 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0BJws2o027537; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 11:58:54 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0BJwq1J027496; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 11:58:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 11:58:52 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 13:59:27 -0600 To: Vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Coherent wave interaction Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57296 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I'm listening to Dr. Hart being interviewed on C to C AM. He says that he can train people to induce various brain waves, which leads to an experience similar to drugs or meditation. He claims that studying this technology would give you all sorts of abilities. At one point the subject of halos came up. He said something to the effect that any engineer would understand that two coherent waves which interacted in a certain way, would form a torus. He went on to mention the Fibonaci series. This is the first I've heard about using wave forms to form a torus. Any of you engineers know anything about this? He continued by saying that coherent brain waves could form a halo over the person's head. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 11 10:51:38 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0BIpL2o029317; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 10:51:21 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0BIpIEq029279; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 10:51:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 10:51:18 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Baronvolsung aol.com Message-ID: <82.1f436468.2f157a13 aol.com> Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 13:50:59 EST Subject: Re: Two Parts of Wave Equation To: NEO-ROUNDTABLE yahoogroups.com, a-albionic@yahoogroups.com, vortex-l eskimo.com, ThomasClark123@aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_82.1f436468.2f157a13_boundary" X-Mailer: 6.0 sub 10578 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57290 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com X-Suspected-Spam: billb friends Status: RO X-Status: --part1_82.1f436468.2f157a13_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/9/05 7:30:10 PM Pacific Standard Time, biophilo bellsouth.net writes: > what application can this have to improve our lives Thomas........or is it > theory........ "Nature works with scalar waves and their velocity of propagation is arbitrary. Wavelength and frequency now can be modulated and information can be recorded separately. In this manner a whole dimension is gained to modulate, the image transmission can take place in parallel, which means considerably faster, safer, and more reliable. Konstantine Meyl, Scalar Waves, Pg. 483" With the scalar wave longitudinal part of the equation omitted in most physics books, we can adapt an ordinary hertzian Intel computer processor running at 1 megahertz that sends information serially along hertzian waves in the wires in the processor chip and in the bus chips which has a limit in speed due to heat stress caused by hertzian waves, to use the longitudinal scalar wave part of the equation to encode, send and receive computer information in parallel and to run with cold scalar wave energy, so that a 1 megahertz Intel chip can be adapted to run a million times faster (a million megahertz) with no heat in the chip at all and a bus chip can be adapted to run just as fast. We only need to replace all of the hertzian dipole transmitters and receivers in the Intel chips that occurs at each wire node and gate with a tesla ball, coil and sink unipolar receiver and transmitter, and then encode and decode the information in the Intel chip using the above longitudinal part of the equation rather than the hertzian part in the computer data transmission and storage algorithms. I quote from Konstantine Meyl, Pg. 482, Scalar Waves, "For the Hertzian wave the velocity of propagation is constant. With the frequency therefore at the same time also the wavelength is being modulated. But this strongly limits the information transmission. An image for instance must be transmitted serially point after point and life after line. The serial image transmission takes place very slowly, for which reason the velocity of the PCs permanently must be increased, so that the amount of date can be managed. With the clock frequency on the other hand also the losses increase, so that in the end the CPU-cooler limits the efficiency of modern PCs. Something our engineers obviously do wrong, as a comparison with the human brain clarifies. Our brain works without a fan. For it a clock frequency of 10 hertz is sufficient. It needs neither Megahertz nor Gigahertz frequencies and despite that is considerably more efficient. Nature only works with the best technology. The second best technology, as it is put to use in our machines, in the evolution wouldn't have had the slightest chance of surviving. The strategies to optimize of nature are merciless. In a free economy that goes completely different. .... Nature works with scalar waves and their velocity of propagation is arbitrary. Wavelength and frequency now can be modulated and information can be recorded separately. In this manner a whole dimension is gained to modulate, the image transmission can take place in parallel, which means considerably faster, safer, and more reliable." Baron Von Volsung, www.rhfweb.com\baron, Email: www.rhfweb.com\emailform.html President Thomas D. Clark, Email: www.rhfweb.com\emailform.html, Personal Web Page: www.rhfweb.com\personal New Age Production's Inc., www.rhfweb.com\newage Star Haven Community Services, at www.rhfweb.com\sh. Radiation Health Foundation Trust at www.rhfweb.com Making a difference one person at a time Get informed. Inform others. --part1_82.1f436468.2f157a13_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message=20= dated 1/9/05 7:30:10 PM Pacific Standard Time, biophilo bellsouth.net writes= :


what application can this h= ave to improve our lives Thomas........or is it theory........

"Nature works with scalar waves and their velocity of propagation is=20= arbitrary.  Wavelength and frequency now can be modulated and informati= on can be recorded separately.  In this manner a whole dimension is gai= ned to modulate, the image transmission can take place in parallel, which me= ans considerably faster, safer, and more reliable. Konstantine Meyl, Scalar=20= Waves, Pg. 483"

With the scalar wave longitudinal part of the equation omitted in most p= hysics books,  we can adapt an ordinary hertzian Intel computer process= or running at 1 megahertz that sends information serially along hertzian wav= es in the wires in the processor chip and in the bus chips which has a limit= in speed due to heat stress caused by hertzian waves, to use the longitudin= al scalar wave part of the equation to encode, send and receive computer inf= ormation in parallel and to run with cold scalar wave energy, so that a 1 me= gahertz Intel chip can be adapted to run a million times faster (a million m= egahertz) with no heat in the chip at all and a bus chip can be adapted to r= un just as fast.  We only need to replace all of the hertzian dipole tr= ansmitters and receivers in the Intel chips that occurs at each wire node an= d gate with a tesla ball, coil and sink unipolar receiver and transmitter, a= nd then encode and decode the information in the Intel chip using the above=20= longitudinal part of the equation rather than the hertzian part in the compu= ter data transmission and storage algorithms.=20

I quote from Konstantine Meyl, Pg. 482, Scalar Waves,=20

"For the Hertzian wave the velocity of propagation is constant.  Wi= th the frequency therefore at the same time also the wavelength is being mod= ulated.  But this strongly limits the information transmission.  A= n image for instance must be transmitted serially point after point and life= after line.  The serial image transmission takes place very slowly, fo= r which reason the velocity of the PCs permanently must be increased, so tha= t the amount of date can be managed.=20

With the clock frequency on the other hand also the losses increase, so=20= that in the end the CPU-cooler limits the efficiency of modern PCs.  So= mething our engineers obviously do wrong, as a comparison with the human bra= in clarifies.  Our brain works without a fan.  For it a clock freq= uency of 10 hertz is sufficient.  It needs neither Megahertz nor Gigahe= rtz frequencies and despite that is considerably more efficient.=20

Nature only works with the best technology. The second best technology,=20= as it is put to use in our machines, in the evolution wouldn't have had the=20= slightest chance of surviving.  The strategies to optimize of nature ar= e merciless. In a free economy that goes completely different. ....

Nature works with scalar waves and their velocity of propagation is arbi= trary. Wavelength and frequency now can be modulated and information can be=20= recorded separately.  In this manner a whole dimension is gained to mod= ulate, the image transmission can take place in parallel, which means consid= erably faster, safer, and more reliable."



Baron Von Volsung, www.rhfweb.co= m\baron, Email: www.rhf= web.com\emailform.html=20
President Thomas D. Clark, Email: www.rhfweb.com\emailform.html,=20
Personal Web Page: www.rhfweb= .com\personal=20
New Age Production's Inc., www.= rhfweb.com\newage=20
Star Haven Community Services, at w= ww.rhfweb.com\sh.=20
Radiation Health Foundation Trust at = www.rhfweb.com=20

Making a difference one person at a time=20
Get informed. Inform others.=20
--part1_82.1f436468.2f157a13_boundary-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 11 10:51:45 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0BIpK2o029294; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 10:51:20 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0BIpI8h029267; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 10:51:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 10:51:18 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Baronvolsung aol.com Message-ID: <86.1f4d5c61.2f157a15 aol.com> Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 13:51:01 EST Subject: Re: Two Parts of Wave Equation To: vortex-l eskimo.com, a-albionic@yahoogroups.com, ThomasClark123@aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_86.1f4d5c61.2f157a15_boundary" X-Mailer: 6.0 sub 10578 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57289 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com X-Suspected-Spam: billb friends Status: O X-Status: --part1_86.1f4d5c61.2f157a15_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/9/05 7:30:10 PM Pacific Standard Time, biophilo bellsouth.net writes: > > > > > > what application can this have to improve our lives Thomas........or is it > theory........ > > I was wondering .......by understanding waves.......can we not master > The wave equations that I posted are not theory and are proven unlike Einstein's Theory which is all theory, false and not proven. Physics texts only show half of the wave equation for Hertzian transverse waves. The other half of the wave equations being scalar longitudinal that I posted allows us to place the wave equation into a computer to see the scalar waves and mind waves and to manipulate them on a computer. Without the other half of the equations we could not see or manipulate such scalar and mind waves on a computer. Also knowing both sides of the wave equations we can show that the big ban theory is false, and that the universe is eternal and ever growing and never runs out of energy since the other half of the equation shows how energy is restored to the universe once it has been used. With the other half of the wave equation being scalar we can travel faster than the speed of light to travel to other planets and star systems, since the other half of the wave equation being scalar is variable and the speed of light and wave travel changes and ranges from 0 to infinity, while the hertzian half is limited to the constant speed of light that we observe as c. The other half of the wave equation also describes from where free environmental energy comes so that we can measure it by means of an equation. Baron Von Volsung, www.rhfweb.com\baron, Email: www.rhfweb.com\emailform.html President Thomas D. Clark, Email: www.rhfweb.com\emailform.html, Personal Web Page: www.rhfweb.com\personal New Age Production's Inc., www.rhfweb.com\newage Star Haven Community Services, at www.rhfweb.com\sh. Radiation Health Foundation Trust at www.rhfweb.com Making a difference one person at a time Get informed. Inform others. --part1_86.1f4d5c61.2f157a15_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message=20= dated 1/9/05 7:30:10 PM Pacific Standard Time, biophilo bellsouth.net writes= :







what application can this have to improve our lives Thomas........or is=20= it theory........

I was wondering .......by understanding waves.......can we not master di= fferent forms of energy.......???


The wave equations that I posted are not theory and are proven unlike Ei= nstein's Theory which is all theory, false and not proven.=20

Physics texts only show half of the wave equation for Hertzian transvers= e waves.  The other half of the wave equations being scalar longitudina= l that I posted allows us to place the wave equation into a computer to see=20= the scalar waves and mind waves and to manipulate them on a computer.  =  Without the other half of the equations we could not see or manipulate= such scalar and mind waves on a computer.  Also knowing both sides of=20= the wave equations we can show that the big ban theory is false, and that th= e universe is eternal and ever growing and never runs out of energy since th= e other half of the equation shows how energy is restored to the universe on= ce it has been used.  With the other half of the wave equation being sc= alar we can travel faster than the speed of light to travel to other planets= and star systems, since the other half of the wave equation being scalar is= variable and the speed of light and wave travel changes and ranges from 0 t= o infinity, while the hertzian half is limited to the constant speed of ligh= t that we observe as c.  The other half of the wave equation also descr= ibes from where free environmental energy comes so that we can measure it by= means of an equation.  

Baron Von Volsung, www.rhfweb.co= m\baron, Email: www.rhf= web.com\emailform.html=20
President Thomas D. Clark, Email: www.rhfweb.com\emailform.html,=20
Personal Web Page: www.rhfweb= .com\personal=20
New Age Production's Inc., www.= rhfweb.com\newage=20
Star Haven Community Services, at w= ww.rhfweb.com\sh.=20
Radiation Health Foundation Trust at = www.rhfweb.com=20

Making a difference one person at a time=20
Get informed. Inform others.=20

--part1_86.1f4d5c61.2f157a15_boundary-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 11 12:41:51 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0BKfh2o019892; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 12:41:43 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0BKfbbI019846; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 12:41:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 12:41:37 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "John Steck" To: Subject: RE: Funny comments Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:41:34 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57297 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Last I checked this is not a political forum. While I don't necessarily mind getting off topic from time to time, it is a waste of everyone's bandwidth when any thread lacks a foundation of facts or historical context. While far from terribly complete, totally objective, or 100% accurate this book may be of some interest to those that think they understand everything about global politics: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0452284058/qid=1105474018/sr=1 -3/ref=sr_1_3/102-1684916-9524933?v=glance&s=books If nothing else, it will help substantiate expressed opinions so that they are less likely to be immediately dismissed as ignorant ramblings. -steck -----Original Message----- From: Harry Veeder [mailto:eo200 freenet.carleton.ca] Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2005 12:27 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Funny comments "Give me liberty, or give me death!" -- Patrick Henry G.W. Bush's motto is: "Give them liberty, or give them death!" Harry Harry leaking pen at itsatrap gmail.com wrote: > where did this come from? and take leadership roles? please, these > guys coming back are making vietnam vets look like ex cops. its a new > generation of homeless we're creating. and i find it funny that you > talk of the lies of one president, without discussing the lies of the > other. one lie was about a personal happenstance, one has caused the > death of over 1000 americans, and the loss of limb of another 10k, and > the death of 150k iraqis. > > sorry, id prefer the "hippy" lies. > > > On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 07:39:15 -0600, RC Macaulay wrote: >> The Red feet never lie, the green feet never tell the truth. A green foot >> need not give any answer, or he may give an answer in the form of a question >> such as.. why do you ask?.. or any number of others.. A question may be a >> method of shielding a lie. >> >> A skilled green foot, may in a trial courtroom setting ( or congressional >> hearing or a University policy meeting) can tell the truth nine different >> ways without lying. >> >> My purpose in the start of the thread was a quick study in an ethics theme >> regarding writing quadradic computing software for ethics. One of the most >> profound questions ever posed in recorded history on the subject was asked >> of Jesus by Pilate.. " what is truth"? Was he lying and knew the truth, or >> was it because he didn't know? >> >> Watching our government conduct business and the war in Iraq begs the >> question.. what happens when our soldiers return,, gain maturity and take >> leadership roles? We see the results of the hippy generation of the Vietnam >> era personified by Clinton. Will a code of ethics be functional for the >> emerging body of youth ? Or will they all become like skilled green feet ? >> Basic and applied research depends on addressing questions of this nature... >> i.e hot vs cold fusion. >> >> Richard > -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.10 - Release Date: 10-Jan-05 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 11 15:54:51 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0BNsk2o001076; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 15:54:46 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0BNsVBu000952; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 15:54:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 15:54:31 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <0eea01c4f838$45526020$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: Subject: Horse-feathers... Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 15:50:03 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0EE7_01C4F7F5.36E45B80" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57298 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0EE7_01C4F7F5.36E45B80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Just what you have been waiting for...More on hummingbird hovering. Subtracting the effects of air resistance, we are pretty sure that = something as dense as a hammer... compared against a feather - when both = are dropped from the same distance in a vacuum will hit the surface = simultaneously. The relative mass is not irrelevant, but they will fall = at the same acceleration and hit the ground at the same time, mas o = menos. It can be shown mathematically that acceleration on a falling = body in a gravity field is independent of the mass of the falling body. As all nerds know, the falling hammer and feather experiment was = actually performed by the crew of Apollo 15 on the surface of the moon = in 1971. Non-nerds can still view the (poor) film clip: http://www.lpi.usra.edu/expmoon/Apollo15/apo15g.avi=20 That being said, would a "feathered wing" in full motion and, say, the = same wing made of molded graphite (or something similar) both have = substantially zero lift properties when rapidly flapped (or even spun) = in a vacuum? I'm sure the graphite one would have zero lift, but.... Hummingbirds are aerodynamic wonders. They have a wing beat of up to 200 = flaps per second during courtship, in air. In terms of comparative RPM = that is 12,000, and from that one would logically expect in air - a fair = amount of airflow should be a side-effect of this. But I am watching one = hover now over a large leaf and the leaf is basically unaffected by the = wing movement and airflow of the hummingbird, hovering just a few cm = above. That oddity got me wondering if something special in the feather's = interaction with an "aether" would allow it to experience some lift = against the aether itself, and consequently would show some very small = lift even in a vacuum.... don't get me wrong.... the feathered wing will = not even come close to permitting flight in a vacuum, but is its = relative movement against an aether irrelevant.... IF there is an aether = ? Are you ROTFing or LOLing yet? =20 Before one balks too much at the suggestion, check out: AN ELECTRON MICROSCOPE STUDY OF THE FINE STRUCTURE OF FEATHER KERATIN = B. K. Filshie and G. E. Rogers=20 http://www.jcb.org/cgi/content/abstract/13/1/1 where the microstructure of feathers is examined and found to be = composed of fine microfibrils approximately 3 nm in diameter embedded in = a matrix material with separation of the microfibrils of the order of = 3.5 nm. That size factor might (and I stress the word "might") have = relevance in regard to the Casimir effect and the Forster radius. They = are nearly optimized in this range. Well, since a googling of this crazy thought "terns" up no real = experiment having ever been performed of a feathered wing at 12,000 RPM, = or even moving at all - in a vacuum, I'm reserving judgment on this = one... putting it into my (massively overflowing) file entitled, = "Experiments to do after I win Lotto and can afford a complete staff of = Lab Nerds." BTW the jackpot is up to $81 million (Cal) this week, so = wish me luck ;-) If you believe in an aether, there are probably hundreds of little = experiments like this that might have some validity... 99 will be null = but the one which does not fail "might" potentially have more relevance = to science than that over-hyped joke that Michelson & Morley performed = on the physics establishment some time back.=20 Jones =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0EE7_01C4F7F5.36E45B80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Just what you have been waiting for...More on hummingbird = hovering.
 
Subtracting the effects of air resistance, we are pretty sure that=20 something as dense as a hammer... compared against a feather - when = both=20 are dropped from the same distance in a vacuum will hit the surface=20 simultaneously. The relative mass is not irrelevant, but they=20 will fall at the same acceleration and hit the ground at the same = time, mas=20 o menos. It can be shown mathematically that acceleration on a falling = body in a=20 gravity field is independent of the mass of the falling body.
 
As all nerds know, the falling hammer and feather experiment was = actually=20 performed by the crew of Apollo 15 on the surface of the moon in=20 1971. Non-nerds can still view the (poor) film clip:
http://www.l= pi.usra.edu/expmoon/Apollo15/apo15g.avi=20
 
That being said, would a "feathered wing" in full motion and, = say, the=20 same wing made of molded graphite (or something similar) both have = substantially=20 zero lift properties when rapidly flapped (or even spun) in a vacuum? = I'm sure=20 the graphite one would have zero lift, but....
 
Hummingbirds are aerodynamic wonders. They have a wing beat of up = to 200=20 flaps per second during courtship, in air. In terms of comparative RPM = that is=20 12,000, and from that one would logically expect in air - a fair = amount of=20 airflow should be a side-effect of this. But I am watching one = hover now=20 over a large leaf and the leaf is basically unaffected by the wing = movement and=20 airflow of the hummingbird, hovering just a few cm above.
 
That oddity got me wondering if something special in the = feather's=20 interaction with an "aether" would allow it to experience some lift = against the=20 aether itself, and consequently would show some very small lift even in = a=20 vacuum.... don't get me wrong.... the feathered wing will not even come = close to=20 permitting flight in a vacuum, but is its relative movement against an=20 aether irrelevant.... IF there is an aether ?
 
Are you ROTFing or LOLing yet?
 
Before one balks too much at the suggestion, check out:
AN ELECTRON MICROSCOPE STUDY OF THE FINE STRUCTURE OF FEATHER = KERATIN =20 B. K. Filshie and G. E. Rogers
http://www.jcb.or= g/cgi/content/abstract/13/1/1
where the microstructure of feathers is examined and found to = be=20 composed of fine microfibrils approximately 3 nm in diameter = embedded in a=20 matrix material with separation of the microfibrils of the order of 3.5 = nm. That=20 size factor might (and I stress the word "might") have relevance in = regard to=20 the Casimir effect and the Forster radius. They are nearly optimized in = this=20 range.
 
Well, since a googling of this crazy thought "terns" up no real = experiment=20 having ever been performed of a feathered wing at 12,000 RPM, or even = moving at=20 all - in a vacuum, I'm reserving judgment on this one... putting it = into my=20 (massively overflowing) file entitled, "Experiments to do after I win = Lotto and=20 can afford a complete staff of Lab Nerds." BTW the jackpot is up to $81 = million=20 (Cal) this week, so wish me luck  ;-)
 
If you believe in an aether, there are probably hundreds = of little=20 experiments like this that might have some validity... 99 will be null = but=20 the  one which does not fail "might" potentially have more = relevance=20 to science than that over-hyped joke that Michelson & Morley = performed on=20 the physics establishment some time back.
 
Jones
 
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_0EE7_01C4F7F5.36E45B80-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 11 17:35:04 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0C1Yk2o005000; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 17:34:46 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0C1Yi9f004970; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 17:34:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 17:34:44 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=iGxo85gsdvhRu5z3k8VTu5ZORUDbjGO6c5Mja3yLj12x5xumrKkCHlAyjQoDlS91r4bZswhQZ9XsJNozZ4yRhB9lfvk2ws1+y2YRsnB1OPA5BTZsbN4+WfUJV52i8hPpAeOyVSym/Al4ZiU5qoW6BvNxdeoRZMsWgC9ESvftJXU= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 18:34:42 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: funny comments In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57299 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: yeah, and hes right. simply ask, is it night? On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 00:46:33 -0900, Horace Heffner wrote: > At 11:56 PM 1/10/5, Randy Souther wrote: > >Why don't you just ask them if it is dark or not? > > > >Randy > > Here is the problem Richard posed: > > At 5:35 PM 1/9/5, RC Macaulay wrote: > >BlankIn west Texas there lived two tribes of natives. One tribe had red > >feet and never told lies. One tribe had green feet and never told the > >truth. > >Question>> If you were traveling in the area during the darkest night and > >encountered a tribe in the dark.. > > Phrased correctly, what single question could be posed to the tribe in > >the darkest night that would be answered in such a way that you could > >determine if they were lying or telling the truth? > > > >Richard > > Regards, > > Horace Heffner > > -- Fairy tales are more than true: not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten. -G.K. Chesterton From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 11 17:48:59 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0C1mn2o010389; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 17:48:50 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0C1mmWm010374; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 17:48:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 17:48:48 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Mark S Bilk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Horse-feathers... Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 17:46:55 -0800 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.28] Content-Type: text/plain MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <05011117484203.12008 isis> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57300 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In-Reply-To: <0eea01c4f838$45526020$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> Organization: http://www.cosmicpenguin.com/911 I breathed some aether once and got kinda floaty... But seriously, maybe the air is propelled diagonally downward from the hummingbird's wings so it didn't deflect the leaf you were observing. If you could catch one and put it in a large terrarium with its food flowers, blow in some light dust and illuminate it (e.g., with a slide projector) transversely against black velvet for a dark-field effect, you might be able to film the dust particles and thus visualize the air currents. Maybe a stereo movie subjected to computer analysis could locate the dust particles in 3-space, and quantify the air stream(s), and one could then calculate whether the force that created the streams is equal to the bird's weight. Cat "dander" -- actually dried saliva that flakes off their fur -- might work for the dust. It ends up on shelves much higher than the cats ever get, and it's available in unlimited quantities! The inspiration for this idea was the movie "Twister" that played on TV last night. Scientists allowed the tornado to suck up dozens of baseball-sized sensor/transmitters whose 3D position was then determined from their RF emanations. On Tue, Jan 11, 2005 at 03:50:03PM -0800, Jones Beene wrote: >Just what you have been waiting for...More on hummingbird hovering. > >Subtracting the effects of air resistance, we are pretty sure that something as dense as a hammer... compared against a feather - when both are dropped from the same distance in a vacuum will hit the surface simultaneously. The relative mass is not irrelevant, but they will fall at the same acceleration and hit the ground at the same time, mas o menos. It can be shown mathematically that acceleration on a falling body in a gravity field is independent of the mass of the falling body. > >As all nerds know, the falling hammer and feather experiment was actually performed by the crew of Apollo 15 on the surface of the moon in 1971. Non-nerds can still view the (poor) film clip: ~>http://www.lpi.usra.edu/expmoon/Apollo15/apo15g.avi > >That being said, would a "feathered wing" in full motion and, say, the same wing made of molded graphite (or something similar) both have substantially zero lift properties when rapidly flapped (or even spun) in a vacuum? I'm sure the graphite one would have zero lift, but.... > >Hummingbirds are aerodynamic wonders. They have a wing beat of up to 200 flaps per second during courtship, in air. In terms of comparative RPM that is 12,000, and from that one would logically expect in air - a fair amount of airflow should be a side-effect of this. But I am watching one hover now over a large leaf and the leaf is basically unaffected by the wing movement and airflow of the hummingbird, hovering just a few cm above. > >That oddity got me wondering if something special in the feather's interaction with an "aether" would allow it to experience some lift against the aether itself, and consequently would show some very small lift even in a vacuum.... don't get me wrong.... the feathered wing will not even come close to permitting flight in a vacuum, but is its relative movement against an aether irrelevant.... IF there is an aether ? > >Are you ROTFing or LOLing yet? > ~>Before one balks too much at the suggestion, check out: >AN ELECTRON MICROSCOPE STUDY OF THE FINE STRUCTURE OF FEATHER KERATIN B. K. Filshie and G. E. Rogers ~>http://www.jcb.org/cgi/content/abstract/13/1/1 >where the microstructure of feathers is examined and found to be composed of fine microfibrils approximately 3 nm in diameter embedded in a matrix material with separation of the microfibrils of the order of 3.5 nm. That size factor might (and I stress the word "might") have relevance in regard to the Casimir effect and the Forster radius. They are nearly optimized in this range. > >Well, since a googling of this crazy thought "terns" up no real experiment having ever been performed of a feathered wing at 12,000 RPM, or even moving at all - in a vacuum, I'm reserving judgment on this one... putting it into my (massively overflowing) file entitled, "Experiments to do after I win Lotto and can afford a complete staff of Lab Nerds." BTW the jackpot is up to $81 million (Cal) this week, so wish me luck ;-) > >If you believe in an aether, there are probably hundreds of little experiments like this that might have some validity... 99 will be null but the one which does not fail "might" potentially have more relevance to science than that over-hyped joke that Michelson & Morley performed on the physics establishment some time back. > >Jones > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 11 18:16:02 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0C2Fp2o020692; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 18:15:51 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0C2Foat020675; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 18:15:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 18:15:50 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Mark S Bilk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: funny comments Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 18:03:43 -0800 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.28] Content-Type: text/plain MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <05011118154004.12008 isis> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57301 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In-Reply-To: Organization: http://www.cosmicpenguin.com/911 On Tue, Jan 11, 2005 at 06:34:42PM -0700, leaking pen wrote: >yeah, and hes right. simply ask, is it night? The way I heard it as a child, the goal is to get some useful yes/no question answered, e.g., at a fork in the road, "Is this (road to the left) the way to San Jose?" You have a member of each tribe at hand, both of whom know the answer, but you don't know which is the liar and which the truth-teller. Answer below. (spoiler space) (spoiler space) (spoiler space) (spoiler space) (spoiler space) (spoiler space) (spoiler space) (spoiler space) (spoiler space) You ask one of them how the other one would answer the question. Thus you always get a single inversion, and the truth is the opposite of whatever he says. You never do find out which is the liar and which the truth-teller, which makes sense, because there are four possibilities -- red- or green-foot is the truthteller, times left or right is the way to San Jose. Since you only receive one binary bit of information, you can resolve one of the two sets of alternatives, but not both (which would require two bits). On Tue, Jan 11, 2005 at 06:34:42PM -0700, leaking pen wrote: >yeah, and hes right. simply ask, is it night? > >On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 00:46:33 -0900, Horace Heffner > wrote: >> At 11:56 PM 1/10/5, Randy Souther wrote: >> >Why don't you just ask them if it is dark or not? >> > >> >Randy >> >> Here is the problem Richard posed: >> >> At 5:35 PM 1/9/5, RC Macaulay wrote: >> >BlankIn west Texas there lived two tribes of natives. One tribe had red >> >feet and never told lies. One tribe had green feet and never told the >> >truth. >> >Question>> If you were traveling in the area during the darkest night and >> >encountered a tribe in the dark.. >> > Phrased correctly, what single question could be posed to the tribe in >> >the darkest night that would be answered in such a way that you could >> >determine if they were lying or telling the truth? >> > >> >Richard >> >> Regards, >> >> Horace Heffner >> From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 11 22:10:51 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0C6AiR2016512; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 22:10:44 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0C6AGBt016373; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 22:10:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 22:10:16 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 21:18:33 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: funny comments Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57302 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 11:56 PM 1/10/5, Randy Souther wrote: >Why don't you just ask them if it is dark or not? > >Randy Ohhh... (slaps hand to forehead!) ... now I see what you meant. Yes, that works too. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 11 22:19:25 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0C6JL2o031490; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 22:19:21 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0C6Ipkw031333; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 22:18:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 22:18:51 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 21:27:16 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: funny comments Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57303 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 6:03 PM 1/11/5, Mark S Bilk wrote: >You ask one of them how the other one would answer the >question. Thus you always get a single inversion, and >the truth is the opposite of whatever he says. You never >do find out which is the liar and which the truth-teller, >which makes sense, because there are four possibilities -- >red- or green-foot is the truthteller, times left or right is the >way to San Jose. Since you only receive one binary bit >of information, you can resolve one of the two sets of >alternatives, but not both (which would require two bits). Yep, so it was useful for Richard to provide us with one of those two bits, so in this case we can know both. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 11 23:12:27 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0C7CGR2001565; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 23:12:17 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0C7CEe3001546; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 23:12:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 23:12:14 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050112071006.006b7f38 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 07:10:06 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Horse-feathers... Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57304 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A I find that suggestion most interesting Jones - but then I suppose that as a Beta-aether believer I would say that wouldn't I. ;-) I seem to remember reading about something like this in connection with the flight of bees. Didn't someone actually put bees in a vacuum, not enough to out them instantly, and show that they were still able to fly around even though, when one calculated the aerodynamic forces involved, it shouldn't have been possible to do so in such a rarified Alpha-atmosphere. If my memory is correct on that, then the data demonstrating the existence of the Beta-atmosphere/aether already exists and only needs to be seen for what it is - and correlated with other data such as cavitation, Cheers Grimer Re-reading your post, it occurs to me that if you were to drop a feather and an osmium ball, say, a very long way in a vacuum so that they both reached extremely high velocities, then one might well find a difference in the time of fall. Perhaps on the next moon trip they could release a feather and a gold ball from the orbiter and see if they finished up on the same spot. Mind you, even if they didn't I'm sure the aether disbelievers would find a good rationalization for the result. At 03:50 pm 11-01-05 -0800, you wrote: >Just what you have been waiting for...More on hummingbird hovering. > >Subtracting the effects of air resistance, we are pretty sure that something as dense as a hammer... compared against a feather - when both are dropped from the same distance in a vacuum will hit the surface simultaneously. The relative mass is not irrelevant, but they will fall at the same acceleration and hit the ground at the same time, mas o menos. It can be shown mathematically that acceleration on a falling body in a gravity field is independent of the mass of the falling body. > >As all nerds know, the falling hammer and feather experiment was actually performed by the crew of Apollo 15 on the surface of the moon in 1971. Non-nerds can still view the (poor) film clip: >http://www.lpi.usra.edu/expmoon/Apollo15/apo15g.avi > >That being said, would a "feathered wing" in full motion and, say, the same wing made of molded graphite (or something similar) both have substantially zero lift properties when rapidly flapped (or even spun) in a vacuum? I'm sure the graphite one would have zero lift, but.... > >Hummingbirds are aerodynamic wonders. They have a wing beat of up to 200 flaps per second during courtship, in air. In terms of comparative RPM that is 12,000, and from that one would logically expect in air - a fair amount of airflow should be a side-effect of this. But I am watching one hover now over a large leaf and the leaf is basically unaffected by the wing movement and airflow of the hummingbird, hovering just a few cm above. > >That oddity got me wondering if something special in the feather's interaction with an "aether" would allow it to experience some lift against the aether itself, and consequently would show some very small lift even in a vacuum.... don't get me wrong.... the feathered wing will not even come close to permitting flight in a vacuum, but is its relative movement against an aether irrelevant.... IF there is an aether ? > >Are you ROTFing or LOLing yet? > >Before one balks too much at the suggestion, check out: >AN ELECTRON MICROSCOPE STUDY OF THE FINE STRUCTURE OF FEATHER KERATIN B. K. Filshie and G. E. Rogers >http://www.jcb.org/cgi/content/abstract/13/1/1 >where the microstructure of feathers is examined and found to be composed of fine microfibrils approximately 3 nm in diameter embedded in a matrix material with separation of the microfibrils of the order of 3.5 nm. That size factor might (and I stress the word "might") have relevance in regard to the Casimir effect and the Forster radius. They are nearly optimized in this range. > >Well, since a googling of this crazy thought "terns" up no real experiment having ever been performed of a feathered wing at 12,000 RPM, or even moving at all - in a vacuum, I'm reserving judgment on this one... putting it into my (massively overflowing) file entitled, "Experiments to do after I win Lotto and can afford a complete staff of Lab Nerds." BTW the jackpot is up to $81 million (Cal) this week, so wish me luck ;-) > >If you believe in an aether, there are probably hundreds of little experiments like this that might have some validity... 99 will be null but the one which does not fail "might" potentially have more relevance to science than that over-hyped joke that Michelson & Morley performed on the physics establishment some time back. > >Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 11 23:56:26 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0C7uI2o018641; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 23:56:18 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0C7uFka018599; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 23:56:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 23:56:15 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050112075339.0069f7bc pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 07:53:39 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: chew toys and eotvos Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57305 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 02:56 pm 11-01-05 -0500, Harry wrote:> >I think any measure of weight, is really a measure of inertia. >Thus a change in weight is really a change in the inertia of the body. >The only way to definitely measure a change in gravity is to measure the >time of fall from a given height. > >As you can see I prefer 'anti-inertia' research to 'anti-gravity' research. > >Harry I agree with that Harry - and I think it is very perceptive - if you will forgive my sounding patronizing. ;-) I have often thought that when I standing on the ground I am really being accelerated in a stationery position by the force being applied through the soles of my feet. In this way one can see more clearly that weight does indeed represent inertia. Now if I were to circle the earth at orbital velocity then I would experience equilibrium between two quite distinct forces the gravitational force acting downwards and the inertial force acting upwards. I believe these two forces act at distinct levels, or depths if you prefer, of matter. To illustrate what I mean with an analogy, consider a more familiar set of forces which are conveniently spatially separate so that one can really see what is going on - one can visualise the gravitational force as acting on the keel and hull of matter, and the inertial force acting on the sail of matter. This brings to mind a wonderful example I saw of a body (more specifically a yacht) which was stationary under the action of two forces acting at different levels of matter. The yacht was trying to enter Littehampton harbour. The tide was going out and the combined tide and river flow was driving the yacht out to sea. In contrast, a rather strong wind was blowing on-shore and driving the yacht into the harbour. The net result that there was a wonderful sight of a yacht sailing away like the clappers but completely stationary relative to me standing on the harbour wall. Cheers Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 12 00:44:53 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0C8ii2o031305; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 00:44:45 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0C8ih7W031291; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 00:44:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 00:44:43 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050112084235.006be30c pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 08:42:35 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Horse-feathers... Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57306 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I find your comment rather interesting Mark - and please do not take what I am going to say as criticism. It takes both intellectual risk takers and intellectual risk avoiders to make a world. The same applies in the sphere of finance. When one comes across an unusual phenomena one can take one of two different approaches - the risk avoidance approach which asks how can I reconcile this phenomena with the existing corpus of knowledge - or the risk attraction approach which asks, how can I get this seed to die so that something new is produced. Some people get a high on taking physical risks. Personally, I am a terrible physical coward and avoid such risks like the plague. When I had a chance to avoid military service - like Dubya, I grabbed it with both hands. Some people get a high on taking intellectual risks - even at the price of emotional and career damage. I believe the majority of Vortexians fall into this category. I certainly do. Of course, people who take intellectual risks will be constantly falling flat on their faces and subjected to ridicule. But then the most successful business men are often those who have been frequently bankrupted. The speculation-accumulation adage is as true intellectually as it is financially Cheers Grimer At 05:46 pm 11-01-05 -0800, you wrote: >In-Reply-To: <0eea01c4f838$45526020$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> >Organization: http://www.cosmicpenguin.com/911 > >I breathed some aether once and got kinda floaty... > >But seriously, maybe the air is propelled diagonally downward >from the hummingbird's wings so it didn't deflect the leaf you >were observing. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 12 03:38:52 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0CBck2o006404; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 03:38:47 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0CBci8f006389; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 03:38:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 03:38:44 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Mark S Bilk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Horse-feathers... Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 03:36:01 -0800 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.28] Content-Type: text/plain MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <05011203383705.12008 isis> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57307 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.20050112084235.006be30c pop.freeserve.net> Organization: http://www.cosmicpenguin.com/911 On Wed, Jan 12, 2005 at 08:42:35AM +0000, Grimer wrote: >I find your comment rather interesting Mark - and please do >not take what I am going to say as criticism. It takes both >intellectual risk takers and intellectual risk avoiders to >make a world. The same applies in the sphere of finance. Actually, I would be thrilled if it turned out that hummingbirds were levitating and propelling themselves by some means that involves previously unknown physical principles. If the "aether" exists and it's possible to propel a vehicle by pushing against it, this would enable spaceship propulsion without expelling mass rearward, and so the huge amounts of reaction mass that currently must be lifted and propelled for chemical (or nuclear) rocketry would be unnecessary. I just thought it would be a good idea to check out the conventional explanation of hummingbird flight first (since a fairly easy experiment might accomplish that), to get an idea of whether something exotic was going on. But an even simpler experiment might serve to test the aether thrust hypothesis: drop a hummingbird feather and some other small object (via an electromechanical release) within a vertical tube a meter tall containing a hard vacuum, and measure their time of fall photoelectrically. Unless some special motion is required for the feather to react against the aether, it should fall more slowly than the control object. It might be necessary to coat the inside of the tube with a transparent conductive film to eliminate static electric charges. Back when I had time to read fiction it was usually science- fiction. Rudy Rucker wrote a story about exotic thorns that could hook into the aether, space-time continuum, or the like. His character tied them to his feet and climbed up into the empty sky. >When one comes across an unusual phenomena one can take one of >two different approaches - the risk avoidance approach which asks >how can I reconcile this phenomena with the existing corpus of >knowledge - or the risk attraction approach which asks, how can I >get this seed to die so that something new is produced. > >Some people get a high on taking physical risks. Personally, I >am a terrible physical coward and avoid such risks like the plague. >When I had a chance to avoid military service - like Dubya, I >grabbed it with both hands. > >Some people get a high on taking intellectual risks - even at >the price of emotional and career damage. I believe the majority >of Vortexians fall into this category. I certainly do. > >Of course, people who take intellectual risks will be constantly >falling flat on their faces and subjected to ridicule. But then >the most successful business men are often those who have been >frequently bankrupted. > >The speculation-accumulation adage is as true intellectually as >it is financially > >Cheers > >Grimer > >At 05:46 pm 11-01-05 -0800, you wrote: >>In-Reply-To: <0eea01c4f838$45526020$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> >>Organization: http://www.cosmicpenguin.com/911 >> >>I breathed some aether once and got kinda floaty... >> >>But seriously, maybe the air is propelled diagonally downward >>from the hummingbird's wings so it didn't deflect the leaf you >>were observing. > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 12 04:20:15 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0CCK1R2031020; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 04:20:02 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0CCJxvk030994; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 04:19:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 04:19:59 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 03:28:32 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Horse-feathers... Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57308 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Determining if a hummingbird is interfacing with the vacuum or aether might be fairly easy. Place it briefly in an air tight cage of thin plexiglass. Place the cage on a scale or balance beam capable of easily sensing the hummingbird's incremental weight. If the total weight drops when the bird flies - then something wonderful is happening! Any momentum the bird transfers to the air will fairly quickly be transferred to the cage. If it flies in part by inteface to the vaccum, then that part of the lift force will not be transmitted to the cage. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 12 06:53:48 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0CErf2o016482; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 06:53:42 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0CErddE016459; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 06:53:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 06:53:39 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=gQF7miORivJveIXpaIqm2F8Gvnt1C7v1QCB+y+4DOC8iavTZk0G2UDUMea0qJYXztBPMx6PD2a2B0Dccq/GMA52M75YS+amg6pnzPl188eb8BIPIyf2gSCX6qwz88bappxPJ7XcVK2bw/GAkjIf//l5y4U3kXzt8Il5tDICC8XM= ; Message-ID: <20050112145332.49030.qmail web54504.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 06:53:32 -0800 (PST) From: Merlyn Subject: Re: Coherent wave interaction To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-977021548-1105541612=:47453" Resent-Message-ID: <9xJbDD.A.GBE.znT5BB ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57309 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-977021548-1105541612=:47453 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii It's a common misperception. If you diagram 2 waveforms of different frequency from a single source, or sources close to each other, then there will be a spherical area of constructive interference which in a 2-d representation could be interpreted as a torus. However, the waveforms are not static as the diagram is, and the area of constructive interference is actually a seperate waveform traveling from the joint source which has a frequency equal to the difference between the 2 original frequencies. As far as the Fibonacci series, a series of waveforms with frequencies corresponding to the series interferes in such a way as to create a square wave from sine waves. I personally believe in a level of energy capable of being manipulated by the human nervous system, which is undetectable by most people, but the aura of such energy is often more eaasily seen around the head, thus producing a halo. And no, I have no idea how this works, I try to keep science and mysticism seperate in my life. thomas malloy wrote: I'm listening to Dr. Hart being interviewed on C to C AM. He says that he can train people to induce various brain waves, which leads to an experience similar to drugs or meditation. He claims that studying this technology would give you all sorts of abilities. At one point the subject of halos came up. He said something to the effect that any engineer would understand that two coherent waves which interacted in a certain way, would form a torus. He went on to mention the Fibonaci series. This is the first I've heard about using wave forms to form a torus. Any of you engineers know anything about this? He continued by saying that coherent brain waves could form a halo over the person's head. Merlyn Magickal Engineer and Technical Metaphysicist __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --0-977021548-1105541612=:47453 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
It's a common misperception.
 
If you diagram 2 waveforms of different frequency from a single source, or sources close to each other, then there will be a spherical area of constructive interference which in a 2-d representation could be interpreted as a torus.
 
However, the waveforms are not static as the diagram is, and the area of constructive interference is actually a seperate waveform traveling from the joint source which has a frequency equal to the difference between the 2 original frequencies.
 
As far as the Fibonacci series, a series of waveforms with frequencies corresponding to the series interferes in such a way as to create a square wave from sine waves.
 
I personally believe in a level of energy capable of being manipulated by the human nervous system, which is undetectable by most people, but the aura of such energy is often more eaasily seen around the head, thus producing a halo.  And no, I have no idea how this works, I try to keep science and mysticism seperate in my life.

thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com> wrote:
I'm listening to Dr. Hart being interviewed on C to C AM. He says
that he can train people to induce various brain waves, which leads
to an experience similar to drugs or meditation. He claims that
studying this technology would give you all sorts of abilities.

At one point the subject of halos came up. He said something to the
effect that any engineer would understand that two coherent waves
which interacted in a certain way, would form a torus. He went on to
mention the Fibonaci series. This is the first I've heard about using
wave forms to form a torus. Any of you engineers know anything about
this? He continued by saying that coherent brain waves could form a
halo over the person's head.



Merlyn
Magickal Engineer and Technical Metaphysicist

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com --0-977021548-1105541612=:47453-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 12 08:09:55 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0CG9o2o011659; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 08:09:50 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0CG9hjE011635; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 08:09:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 08:09:43 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002701c4f8c0$81912980$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: Subject: Re: Horse-feathers... Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 08:05:15 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57310 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner writes, > Determining if a hummingbird is interfacing with the vacuum or aether might > be fairly easy. Place it briefly in an air tight cage of thin plexiglass. > Place the cage on a scale or balance beam capable of easily sensing the > hummingbird's incremental weight. If the total weight drops when the bird > flies - then something wonderful is happening! Any momentum the bird > transfers to the air will fairly quickly be transferred to the cage. If it > flies in part by inteface to the vaccum, then that part of the lift force > will not be transmitted to the cage. Excellent suggestion... and a lot easier than epoxying feathers onto a rotor. BTW they are pretty easy to catch if you have a large plate glass window. They never seem to learn that they cannot fly thought these. I suspect they are attracted to their own reflection, as that is how they confront rivals, normally - the bird equivalent of the head-butt. A high speed collision with polished silicon dioxide usually only stuns them for a 10-20 seconds and then they recover; but I have rescued a few from the prying eyes of the neighbors cat, who keeps a closer watch on their habits than I do, even though they must make an unsatisfying meal, for all the effort. Funny, they have this incredible communication system. If you pick one up, even with good intentions, the others go berserk and raise a huge and vocal ruckus, until their pal revives and flies off. It like cheering for the home team, or something. Then they get back to fighting with him normally. The interesting part is, at about 3 grams each, 30% of the weight is feathers 50% is musculature and bones and when you add in the vital organs, what mass is left for that brain (which has to be totally pre-programmed, ab ovum, since they only live 2 years or less) must weigh in at only milligrams.... but, not to worry... in terms of survival, they have been around a lot longer than humans, and will likely still be here when we are long gone... Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 12 12:03:50 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0CK3k2o007643; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 12:03:46 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0CK3i1w007619; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 12:03:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 12:03:44 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050112145431.02a6ddf0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 15:03:30 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Would appreciate PR for book Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_19782437==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: <7-3n1.A._2B.gKY5BB ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57311 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --=====================_19782437==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed People have been downloading ~15 copies of the book per day; 5 high resolution copies and 10 low resolution ones. I cannot complain about that, but I was hoping there would be a somewhat bigger and more enthusiastic response. I was hoping it would appeal to the general public and have a political impact. If you have read the book and you enjoyed it, I would appreciate it if you would recommend it to your friends, and also to reporters and bloggers, who sometimes generate a buzz. To repeat, the URLs are: http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/RothwellJcoldfusiona.pdf (6 MB) The high-resolution version: http://lenr-canr.org/ColdFusionAndTheFuturehires.pdf (17 MB) I have ordered some printed copies. They should be here soon. - Jed --=====================_19782437==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" People have been downloading ~15 copies of the book per day; 5 high resolution copies and 10 low resolution ones. I cannot complain about that, but I was hoping there would be a somewhat bigger and more enthusiastic response. I was hoping it would appeal to the general public and have a political impact. If you have read the book and you enjoyed it, I would appreciate it if you would recommend it to your friends, and also to reporters and bloggers, who sometimes generate a buzz.

To repeat, the URLs are:

http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/RothwellJcoldfusiona.pdf (6 MB)

The high-resolution version:

http://lenr-canr.org/ColdFusionAndTheFuturehires.pdf (17 MB)

I have ordered some printed copies. They should be here soon.

- Jed
--=====================_19782437==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 12 12:26:30 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0CKQMR2009857; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 12:26:22 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0CKQKQx009838; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 12:26:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 12:26:20 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 15:24:29 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: chew toys and eotvos In-reply-to: <2.2.32.20050112075339.0069f7bc pop.freeserve.net> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57312 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Grimer at f.grimer grimer2.freeserve.co.uk wrote: > At 02:56 pm 11-01-05 -0500, Harry wrote:> > > > >> I think any measure of weight, is really a measure of inertia. >> Thus a change in weight is really a change in the inertia of the body. >> The only way to definitely measure a change in gravity is to measure the >> time of fall from a given height. >> >> As you can see I prefer 'anti-inertia' research to 'anti-gravity' research. >> >> Harry > > > I agree with that Harry - and I think it is very perceptive - if you will > forgive my sounding patronizing. ;-) > > I have often thought that when I standing on the ground I am really being > accelerated in a stationery position by the force being applied through the > soles of my feet. In this way one can see more clearly that weight does indeed > represent inertia. I would stop short of saying weight represents inertia. Rather, it is the measure (quantification) of weight that represents inertia. Qualitative judgements are as important as quantitative judgements in forging a new physics. Be wary of quantifiable analogies. > Now if I were to circle the earth at orbital velocity then I would experience > equilibrium between two quite distinct forces the gravitational force acting > downwards and the inertial force acting upwards. Then you should feel your weight, just as you do standing on the surface of the Earth. > I believe these two forces > act at distinct levels, or depths if you prefer, of matter. To illustrate what > I mean with an analogy, consider a more familiar set of forces which are > conveniently spatially separate so that one can really see what is going on - > one can visualise the gravitational force as acting on the keel and hull of > matter, and the inertial force acting on the sail of matter. > > This brings to mind a wonderful example I saw of a body (more specifically a > yacht) which was stationary under the action of two forces acting at different > levels of matter. > > The yacht was trying to enter Littehampton harbour. The tide was going out and > the combined tide and river flow was driving the yacht out to sea. > > In contrast, a rather strong wind was blowing on-shore and driving the yacht > into the harbour. The net result that there was a wonderful sight of a yacht > sailing away like the clappers but completely stationary relative to me > standing on the harbour wall. > > Cheers > > Grimer > As poetry this opens a portal to a new physics. But if you process the poetry with establishment physics you risk closing the portal. Harry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 12 12:32:06 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0CKVtR2012206; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 12:31:56 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0CKVshV012198; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 12:31:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 12:31:54 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 12:31:52 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Antigravity insects? In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.20050112071006.006b7f38 pop.freeserve.net> Message-ID: References: <2.2.32.20050112071006.006b7f38 pop.freeserve.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57313 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Numerous times I've seen bees in the garden as they explore, hovering half a foot above the fine dusty dirt. Just as you might expect, there is a tiny spot directly below the bee where the dust is being thrown radially outwards. The "downwash" from a bee remains collimated as a narrow jet which extends at least a few inches below the bee. On the other hand, followers of "torsion" might recall this stuff from a Russian fringe scientist on Keelynet: Grebinnikov's bio-antigravity: "cavity structural effect" force anomaly from beetle wing cases http://www.amasci.com/greb/greb2.html Also weird: Experiment: Major body mass changes during sleepwalking http://www3.sympatico.ca/slavek.krepelka/exper/sleepw.htm (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 12 12:41:14 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0CKepR2015867; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 12:40:52 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0CKeoPH015839; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 12:40:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 12:40:50 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 15:39:07 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Ant-inertia and the humming bird. In-reply-to: <2.2.32.20050112071006.006b7f38 pop.freeserve.net> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57314 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Perhaps the humming (flapping) of the humming bird continuously modifies the law of inertia for the wings so it would require less effort for the bird to flap its wings. After that, conventional aerodynamics kicks in and keeps the bird aloft. For example, the law of inertia might be temporarily modified so that the natural motion of matter becomes curvilinear, instead of linear. Harry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 12 13:52:18 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0CLq92o004470; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 13:52:09 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0CLq7Gc004446; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 13:52:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 13:52:07 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050112214958.006a44f4 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 21:49:58 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: chew toys and eotvos Resent-Message-ID: <9wVCMD.A.aFB.HwZ5BB ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57315 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 03:24 pm 12-01-05 -0500, Harry wrote: >> Grimer at f.grimer grimer2.freeserve.co.uk wrote: >> >> Now if I were to circle the earth at orbital velocity then I would experience >> equilibrium between two quite distinct forces the gravitational force acting >> downwards and the inertial force acting upwards. > Then you should feel your weight, just as you do standing on the surface of > the Earth. With respect, I can't agree. Let us say, for the sake of argument, that the gravitational force acts downwards on the neutrons (the nuclear keel) and the inertial force acts upwards on the protons (the nuclear sail) of each nucleus (Das Boot) in my body. Then those nuclei would be under a strain. If I had a teeny weeny and unbelievably sensitive strain gauge I could measure those teeny weeny strains, though they would be incredibly small because the inertial and gravitational forces involved are minute compared to the forces holding protons and neutrons together. Now, are you really suggesting that I could FEEL those strains? You can't be serious! 8-) Cheers Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 12 14:29:56 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0CMThR2027891; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 14:29:43 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0CMTf5e027870; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 14:29:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 14:29:41 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <41E5A4CC.8060104 pobox.com> Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 17:29:32 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.3) Gecko/20041007 Debian/1.7.3-5 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: funny comments References: <4AF254D8-63A6-11D9-88B7-000393596C52@earthlink.net> In-Reply-To: <4AF254D8-63A6-11D9-88B7-000393596C52 earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57316 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Randy Souther wrote: > Why don't you just ask them if it is dark or not? > > Randy Horace was providing the solution to the "classic" riddle, which goes something like this: "One tribe lies, the other doesn't; one has red feet, the other green; you don't know which is which; on a dark night how do you determine the color of a native's feet with one question?" The riddle as stated was a little different and included the information as to which color of feet went with lying (most likely by mistake) and in consequence it had, as one obvious solution, the question "Is it dark out?". That doesn't solve the classic version, however. If they can "lie to themselves" while telling the truth to an outsider then the answers they give are effectively random and it can't be solved just by asking a single question. > > On Jan 10, 2005, at 11:47 PM, Horace Heffner wrote: > >> At 10:29 PM 1/10/5, RC Macaulay wrote: >> >>> BlankYa havta love this group!! Stephen Lawrence is correct in his >>> view.. but.. think again of the question. >>> >>> The red foot tribe never lies and the green foot tribe never tells >>> the truth >>> >>> The question presupposes an attempt by the visitor to determine if the >>> tribe is red foot or green foot using the knowledge of their respective >>> traits of lying or telling the truth by the color of their feet. The >>> lying >>> green foot could answer yes and be lying to himself . >> >> >> >> It is easy to tell who is whom, even if they will only answer yes or no, >> provided the red foot tribe never lies and the green foot tribe never >> tells >> the truth, and assuming of course you get an answer. >> >> The question for yes or no answers is: "If I asked the other tribe in >> the >> region if their feet are red, what would they say"? >> >> The response will always contain a single lie. >> >> If the response is yes, then the true answer is no. The other tribe has >> green feet, thus never tells the truth. The tribe answering has red feet >> and always tells the truth. >> >> If the response is no, then the true answer is yes. The other tribe has >> red feet, thus never tells lies. The tribe answering has green feet >> and is >> always lying. >> >> Now, if the green foot lies to himself and thereby tells the truth, this >> denies the fundamental premise of the problem that the green foot tribe >> never tells the truth. The problem is then merely nonsense. Might >> as well >> pretend they are all senile. If the green foot tribe in fact never >> tells >> the truth, and the red foot tribe never lies, and they know a simple >> fundamental fact like which tribe is which, then the problem is >> meaningful >> and it is easy to tell which tribe is present with one yes or no >> question. >> >> Regards, >> >> Horace Heffner >> >> > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 12 15:07:55 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0CN7k2o022785; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 15:07:47 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0CN7jI7022765; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 15:07:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 15:07:45 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 18:05:59 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: serious chewing and eotvos In-reply-to: <2.2.32.20050112214958.006a44f4 pop.freeserve.net> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57317 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Grimer at f.grimer grimer2.freeserve.co.uk wrote: > At 03:24 pm 12-01-05 -0500, Harry wrote: > >>> Grimer at f.grimer grimer2.freeserve.co.uk wrote: >>> >>> Now if I were to circle the earth at orbital velocity then I would >>> experience >>> equilibrium between two quite distinct forces the gravitational force acting >>> downwards and the inertial force acting upwards. > >> Then you should feel your weight, just as you do standing on the surface of >> the Earth. > > With respect, I can't agree. > > Let us say, for the sake of argument, that the > gravitational force acts downwards on the neutrons > (the nuclear keel) and the inertial force acts > upwards on the protons (the nuclear sail) of > each nucleus (Das Boot) in my body. Then those > nuclei would be under a strain. > > If I had a teeny weeny and unbelievably sensitive > strain gauge I could measure those teeny weeny > strains, though they would be incredibly small > because the inertial and gravitational forces > involved are minute compared to the forces holding > protons and neutrons together. > > Now, are you really suggesting that > I could FEEL those strains? > > You can't be serious! 8-) > > Cheers > > Grimer > > Yes I am serious. Your protons and neutrons are not like the protons and neutrons known to physics. Neutrons and protons both have inertia and gravity, but for "the sake of argument" you have divested the neutron of inertia and the proton of gravity. Harry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 12 16:30:17 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0D0U7Bn007622; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 16:30:11 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0D0U5BJ007595; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 16:30:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 16:30:05 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=B2CaJF1qrsi3b+EtmkHu95H6UKQATPCPDvKm2/kxOosd2Y092Hc/wAiL4DrvQljl; Message-ID: <410-220051312232958270 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Solar-Cold Fusion Spacecraft Propulsion Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 17:29:58 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9404aa6da1543b79c126807c15945c546e0350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.165.233 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57318 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII While Jones Beene's birds and Bill Beaty's bees are interacting with the aether. :-) I propose using very large cylinders of solid CO2 with the ends pointed toward the sun so that the 1.3 kilowatts/meter^2 solar insolation (at earth's distance) can provide the 200Kj/kg heat of sublimation, thus providing a "sublime" thrust as the CO2 comes off. Heat from a Cold Fusion radiator can be used when the '"Outer Limits" of solar energy is attained. Helps alleviate the green-house gas problem too. Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

While Jones Beene's birds and Bill Beaty's bees are interacting with the aether.  :-)
 
I propose using very large cylinders of solid CO2 with the ends pointed toward the sun
so that the 1.3 kilowatts/meter^2 solar insolation (at earth's distance) can provide
the 200Kj/kg heat of sublimation, thus providing a "sublime" thrust as the CO2 comes off.
 
Heat from a Cold Fusion radiator can be used when the '"Outer Limits" of solar energy
is attained.
 
Helps alleviate the green-house gas problem too.
 
Frederick
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 12 18:33:48 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0D2XcBn002746; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 18:33:42 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0D2XXmp002717; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 18:33:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 18:33:33 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 13:34:04 +1100 Subject: Re: NEW ENERGY TIMES (tm) Jan. 10, 2005 -- Issue #8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) Cc: Dave D To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Dave D In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050111143154.02a6a2f8 pop.mindspring.com> Message-Id: <97807918-650B-11D9-B494-000A27913A2A incanberra.com.au> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) X-Server: High Performance Mail Server - http://surgemail.com X-Authenticated-User: dave.davies netspeed.com.au Resent-Message-ID: <16epYB.A.Zq.93d5BB ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57319 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: The biggest controversy surrounding the Wright brothers is whether they were actually the first to fly. I gather New Zealand has a prior claim with Richard Pearse. http://www.ctie.monash.edu.au/hargrave/pearse1.html http://www.nzedge.com/heroes/pearse.html But claims of 'first' are always dubious. We all stand on the shoulders of our predecessors. Interestingly, nobody seemed to doubt him. Not so much of the snake oil suspicion in NZ I guess - a particularly sad form of Pathological Scepticism. dave On Wednesday, January 12, 2005, at 06:47 AM, Jed Rothwell wrote: > Item 23 in this newsletter, "Pathological Skepticism" by Bill Beaty, > is incorrect about the nature and the chronology of the controversy > between the Smithsonian and the Wright brothers. Langley himself had > nothing to do with it. As far as I know, he accepted the Wright's > claims. He died in 1906, long before the controversy erupted, and two > years before the mainstream believed the Wright's claims. > > The controversy was caused by Langley's successors, especially > Walcott, by Glen Curtiss (a commercial rival who used Langley's work > to try to break the patent), and by A. G. Bell. Bell awarded the first > Langley Medal to the Wrights in 1910, but in his speech he belittled > their accomplishments, making it seem as if they were merely students > of Langley. Bell was a great man but this was an ugly incident. > > In my opinion, Langley did not contribute much to the progress of > aviation. > > - Jed > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 12 20:50:17 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0D4nx1H028738; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 20:50:08 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0D4nvqG028721; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 20:49:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 20:49:57 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Baronvolsung aol.com Message-ID: <77.3cb6e6bc.2f1757ed aol.com> Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 23:49:49 EST Subject: Re: Two Parts of Wave Equation To: vortex-l eskimo.com, a-albionic@yahoogroups.com, NEO-ROUNDTABLE yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_77.3cb6e6bc.2f1757ed_boundary" X-Mailer: 6.0 sub 10578 Resent-Message-ID: <1pdgu.A.tAH.03f5BB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57320 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --part1_77.3cb6e6bc.2f1757ed_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/11/05 10:52:39 AM Pacific Standard Time, Baronvolsung aol.com writes: > so that a 1 megahertz Intel chip can be adapted to run a million times > faster (a million megahertz) with no heat in the chip at all and a bus chip can > be adapted to run just as fast. The above statement posted in the previous email post by me should be corrected to replace megahertz with gigahertz. Baron Von Volsung, www.rhfweb.com\baron, Email: www.rhfweb.com\emailform.html President Thomas D. Clark, Email: www.rhfweb.com\emailform.html, Personal Web Page: www.rhfweb.com\personal New Age Production's Inc., www.rhfweb.com\newage Star Haven Community Services, at www.rhfweb.com\sh. Radiation Health Foundation Trust at www.rhfweb.com Making a difference one person at a time Get informed. Inform others. --part1_77.3cb6e6bc.2f1757ed_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message=20= dated 1/11/05 10:52:39 AM Pacific Standard Time, Baronvolsung aol.com writes= :


so that a 1 megahertz Intel= chip can be adapted to run a million times faster (a million megahertz) wit= h no heat in the chip at all and a bus chip can be adapted to run just as fa= st.
The above statement posted in the previous email post by me should be co= rrected to replace megahertz with gigahertz.=20

Baron Von Volsung, www.rhfweb.co= m\baron, Email: www.rhf= web.com\emailform.html=20
President Thomas D. Clark, Email: www.rhfweb.com\emailform.html,=20
Personal Web Page: www.rhfweb= .com\personal=20
New Age Production's Inc., www.= rhfweb.com\newage=20
Star Haven Community Services, at w= ww.rhfweb.com\sh.=20
Radiation Health Foundation Trust at = www.rhfweb.com=20

Making a difference one person at a time=20
Get informed. Inform others.=20
--part1_77.3cb6e6bc.2f1757ed_boundary-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 12 21:50:32 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0D5mv1H011190; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 21:50:21 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0D5mqeC011137; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 21:48:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 21:48:52 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Baronvolsung aol.com Message-ID: <1c8.229afb19.2f1765b9 aol.com> Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 00:48:41 EST Subject: Re: Two Parts of Wave Equation To: NEO-ROUNDTABLE yahoogroups.com, a-albionic@yahoogroups.com, vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_1c8.229afb19.2f1765b9_boundary" X-Mailer: 6.0 sub 10578 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57321 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --part1_1c8.229afb19.2f1765b9_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/12/05 7:50:29 AM Pacific Standard Time, biophilo bellsouth.net writes: > Is it possible to start a company to manufacture such " chips" and > processors........??? The parallel Tesla scalar wave computer chip is very similar to the parallel atomic computer chips and fiber optic computers using fiber optic processors proposed on the Internet but much more powerful. I know for a fact that the governments use Scalar Wave Tesla holographic computer chips and memory systems as I suggested above presently but this is classified. The reason's that the above Tesla scalar wave holographic computer chips are not publicly offered by companies like Intel, is that such computers could crack all known security encryption codes, and Tesla technologies are classified nuclear technologies repressed by most governments. Human brains are scalar wave processors and the US government has acknowledged that it already has a man to machine interface most likely by means of scalar wave computers that interface with scalar wave brains which are kept classified. I am sure some employee at Intel already knows how to build such scalar wave processors, but the ideas have been shelved, kept classified or repressed by government thugs. As you suggest, a whole new operating system may need to be developed which we already have been warned of by time travelers, but this would not stop Bill Gates, since he has enough money to start a new operating system to run on such computers by forming a new company presently, which actually may already have been started but kept secret from the general public to be sold to classified clients. May guess is that in the present and future some advanced computer technologies may be kept secret and repressed from the general public but sold secretly to classified clients since power in modern societies is partially dependent on the speed of information processing. Your name of best operating system BOS may be changed to Classified Operating System COS. Baron Von Volsung, www.rhfweb.com\baron, Email: www.rhfweb.com\emailform.html President Thomas D. Clark, Email: www.rhfweb.com\emailform.html, Personal Web Page: www.rhfweb.com\personal New Age Production's Inc., www.rhfweb.com\newage Star Haven Community Services, at www.rhfweb.com\sh. Radiation Health Foundation Trust at www.rhfweb.com Making a difference one person at a time Get informed. Inform others. --part1_1c8.229afb19.2f1765b9_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message=20= dated 1/12/05 7:50:29 AM Pacific Standard Time, biophilo bellsouth.net write= s:


Is it possible to start a c= ompany to manufacture such " chips" and=20
processors........???
The parallel Tesla scalar wave computer chip is very similar to the para= llel atomic computer chips and fiber optic computers using fiber optic proce= ssors proposed  on the Internet but much more powerful.  I know fo= r a fact that the governments use Scalar Wave Tesla holographic computer chi= ps and memory systems as I suggested above presently but this is classified.=  

The reason's that the above Tesla scalar wave holographic computer chips= are not publicly offered by companies like Intel, is that such computers co= uld crack all known security encryption codes, and Tesla technologies are cl= assified nuclear technologies repressed by most governments.  Human bra= ins are scalar wave processors and the US government has acknowledged that i= t already has a man to machine interface most likely by means of scalar wave= computers that interface with scalar wave brains which are kept classified.

I am sure some employee at Intel already knows how to build such scalar=20= wave processors, but the ideas have been shelved, kept classified or repress= ed by government thugs.  As you suggest, a whole new operating system m= ay need to be developed which we already have been warned of by time travele= rs, but this would not stop Bill Gates, since he has enough money to start a= new operating system to run on such computers by forming a new company pres= ently, which actually may already have been started but kept secret from the= general public to be sold to classified clients.  May guess is that in= the present and future some advanced computer technologies may be kept secr= et and repressed from the general public but sold secretly to classified cli= ents since power in modern societies is partially dependent on the speed of=20= information processing.   Your name of best operating system BOS m= ay be changed to Classified Operating System COS.=20

Baron Von Volsung, www.rhfweb.co= m\baron, Email: www.rhf= web.com\emailform.html=20
President Thomas D. Clark, Email: www.rhfweb.com\emailform.html,=20
Personal Web Page: www.rhfweb= .com\personal=20
New Age Production's Inc., www.= rhfweb.com\newage=20
Star Haven Community Services, at w= ww.rhfweb.com\sh.=20
Radiation Health Foundation Trust at = www.rhfweb.com=20

Making a difference one person at a time=20
Get informed. Inform others.=20
--part1_1c8.229afb19.2f1765b9_boundary-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 12 22:04:11 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0D62c1H017225; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 22:03:58 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0D62Z1I017174; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 22:02:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 22:02:35 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 21:09:50 -0900 To: "vortex-l" From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Solar-Cold Fusion Spacecraft Propulsion Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57322 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 5:29 PM 1/12/5, Frederick Sparber wrote: >I propose using very large cylinders of solid CO2 with the ends pointed >toward the sun >so that the 1.3 kilowatts/meter^2 solar insolation (at earth's distance) >can provide >the 200Kj/kg heat of sublimation, thus providing a "sublime" thrust as the >CO2 comes off. > >Heat from a Cold Fusion radiator can be used when the '"Outer Limits" of >solar energy >is attained. > >Helps alleviate the green-house gas problem too. Fred, I am so glad you are still around. You are one of the few remaining list members who seems to not be numerically challenged. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 12 23:29:39 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0D7TUBn002715; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 23:29:30 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0D7TReq002701; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 23:29:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 23:29:27 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050113072716.006a1dd8 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 07:27:16 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: serious chewing and eotvos Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57323 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 06:05 pm 12-01-05 -0500, you wrote: >Grimer at f.grimer grimer2.freeserve.co.uk wrote: > >> At 03:24 pm 12-01-05 -0500, Harry wrote: >Your protons and neutrons are not like the protons and neutrons >known to physics. Neutrons and protons both have inertia and gravity, >but for "the sake of argument" you have divested the neutron of >inertia and the proton of gravity. > >Harry Oh dear. I'll try just once more! I am only too well aware of the fact that protons and neutrons have inertia and gravity, which is precisely why I prefaced my remarks with the words "for the sake of argument". I couldn't use the names of the particle [Thing 1 say] which is "seen" by gravity, nor could I use the name of the particle which is "seen" [Thing 2, say] by inertia coz .... .....to adapt those immortal lines from Tom Lehrer's "The Elements" to to the sub-elements. # And there may be many others but they haven't been disca-vard. Bum, ba-da-ta tum tum, bum bum! ... # Thing 1 and Thing 2 are empty spaces in a minimalist table; analogous to the empty spaces in the Mendeleev table before the elements that occupied those spaces were disca-vard. Cheers Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 12 23:59:16 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0D7vT1H015352; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 23:58:50 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0D7vRNQ015331; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 23:57:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 23:57:27 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050113075353.006acd84 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 07:53:53 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Solar-Cold Fusion Spacecraft Propulsion Resent-Message-ID: <-Q2jKB.A.cvD.nni5BB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57324 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 09:09 pm 12-01-05 -0900, Horace wrote: > >Fred, I am so glad you are still around. You are one of the few remaining >list members who seems to not be numerically challenged. > >Regards, > >Horace Heffner Are you suffering from the effects of SAD in your remote northern aerie, Horace? It's not like you to cast aspersions on the whole of the Vortex membership, save for a "few remaining list members". ;^) ==================================================== Light is vital to our well-being, the long hours of darkness and a lack of daylight in the winter months affects upwards of two million people in the form of SAD (Seasonal Affective Disorder). ==================================================== Cheer up, The days are getting longer and spring will soon be here. 8-) Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 13 00:44:15 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0D8i7Bn024503; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 00:44:07 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0D8i5vc024486; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 00:44:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 00:44:05 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 03:42:23 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: serious chewing and eotvos In-reply-to: <2.2.32.20050113072716.006a1dd8 pop.freeserve.net> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57325 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Grimer at f.grimer grimer2.freeserve.co.uk wrote: > At 06:05 pm 12-01-05 -0500, you wrote: >> Grimer at f.grimer grimer2.freeserve.co.uk wrote: >> >>> At 03:24 pm 12-01-05 -0500, Harry wrote: > > >> Your protons and neutrons are not like the protons and neutrons >> known to physics. Neutrons and protons both have inertia and gravity, >> but for "the sake of argument" you have divested the neutron of >> inertia and the proton of gravity. >> >> Harry > > > Oh dear. I'll try just once more! > > I am only too well aware of the fact that protons and neutrons have > inertia and gravity, which is precisely why I prefaced my remarks with > the words "for the sake of argument". I couldn't use the names of the > particle [Thing 1 say] which is "seen" by gravity, nor could I use the > name of the particle which is "seen" [Thing 2, say] by inertia coz .... > > .....to adapt those immortal lines from Tom Lehrer's "The Elements" to > to the sub-elements. > > # And there may be many others but they haven't been disca-vard. > Bum, ba-da-ta tum tum, bum bum! ... # > > Thing 1 and Thing 2 are empty spaces in a minimalist table; > analogous to the empty spaces in the Mendeleev table before > the elements that occupied those spaces were disca-vard. > > Cheers Do thing 1 and thing 2 come with a thing-force to keep them together? Harry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 13 03:30:15 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0DBU8Bn022638; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 03:30:08 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0DBU6mr022632; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 03:30:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 03:30:06 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050113112754.006ac658 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 11:27:54 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: serious chewing and eotvos Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57326 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 03:42 am 13-01-05 -0500, Harry wrote: > Do thing 1 and thing 2 come with a thing-force to keep them together? By George, (s)he's got it, Pickering. By George, (s)he's got it. ;^) Of course they do. That was implicit in the analogy. It's no good having a sail and a hull if they haven't got a "thing-force" to hold them together, is it! 8-) Cheers. Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 13 03:46:55 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0DBjR1H005992; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 03:46:47 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0DBjPTQ005973; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 03:45:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 03:45:25 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=k59PN56zULmBXG2wnjFmEanvG1bYYP9ztjRiGju0ap66kEXaMrzcixiRexVLMdAR; Message-ID: <410-220051413104517630 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Solar-Cold Fusion Spacecraft Propulsion Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 04:45:17 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9407c044c38cd7fae69451294c810d1c28a350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.84 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57327 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Horace Heffner wrote: > > Fred, I am so glad you are still around. You are one of the few remaining > list members who seems to not be numerically challenged. > > At 5:29 PM 1/12/5, Frederick Sparber wrote: >> I propose using very large cylinders of solid CO2 with the ends pointed >>toward the sun > >so that the 1.3 kilowatts/meter^2 solar insolation (at earth's distance) > >can provide >>the 200Kj/kg heat of sublimation, thus providing a "sublime" thrust as the >>CO2 comes off. >> > >Heat from a Cold Fusion radiator can be used when the '"Outer Limits" of > >solar energy > >is attained. >> >>Helps alleviate the green-house gas problem too. >> > I'm not so sure about that numerically challenged part, Horace. I come up with about 90 lbs thrust per square meter for CO2 sublimation, and about 20 lbs per square meter for H2O ice sublimation thrust. With "CO2 Smoke and Mirrors" you can fly a spacecraft toward the sun too. :-) Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Horace Heffner  wrote:
>
> Fred, I am so glad you are still around.  You are one of the few remaining
> list members who seems to not be numerically challenged.
> 
>  At 5:29 PM 1/12/5, Frederick Sparber wrote:

>> I propose using very large cylinders of solid CO2 with the ends pointed
>>toward the sun
> >so that the 1.3 kilowatts/meter^2 solar insolation (at earth's distance)
> >can provide
>>the 200Kj/kg heat of sublimation, thus providing a "sublime" thrust as the
>>CO2 comes off.
>>
> >Heat from a Cold Fusion radiator can be used when the '"Outer Limits" of
> >solar energy
> >is attained.
>>
>>Helps alleviate the green-house gas problem too.
>>
>
I'm not so sure about that numerically challenged part, Horace.
 
I come up with about 90 lbs thrust per square meter for CO2 sublimation, and
about 20 lbs per square meter for H2O ice sublimation thrust.
 
With "CO2 Smoke and Mirrors" you can fly a spacecraft toward the sun too.   :-)
 
Frederick
 
 
 

 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 13 04:09:52 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0DC8I1H013687; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 04:09:38 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0DC8GEh013666; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 04:08:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 04:08:16 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 03:15:29 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Solar-Cold Fusion Spacecraft Propulsion Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57328 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:53 PM 1/12/5, Grimer wrote: >At 09:09 pm 12-01-05 -0900, Horace wrote: > >> >>Fred, I am so glad you are still around. You are one of the few remaining >>list members who seems to not be numerically challenged. >> >>Regards, >> >>Horace Heffner > > >Are you suffering from the effects of SAD in your remote northern aerie, >Horace? >It's not like you to cast aspersions on the whole of the Vortex membership, >save for a "few remaining list members". ;^) > > ==================================================== > Light is vital to our well-being, the long hours of > darkness and a lack of daylight in the winter months > affects upwards of two million people in the form of > SAD (Seasonal Affective Disorder). > ==================================================== > >Cheer up, > >The days are getting longer and spring will soon be here. 8-) > >Grimer Yep, right on two counts. I have it! Most folks here just call it cabin fever. Not only is the lack of light troublesome, but we have high winds here for days at a time. Not only that, but the weather these days is going to extremes, metling the snow and ice and then hard freezing at near zero degrees F. It makes houses pop and creek. Sounds funny to hear Jones Beene talk about hummingbirds outside his window! Also, my apologies for the "numerically challenged" comment, which was a not only wrong but a misstatement of my feelings. I am, however, glad Fred Sparber is still kicking around ideas in his typically very quantitative way, and do miss some of the old timers here. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 13 04:38:08 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0DCbvBn003870; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 04:37:57 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0DCbt8m003842; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 04:37:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 04:37:55 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=nHnaYl3xfDLNjxGcHEQWV9NPiw56uPbHAH+4rjj3hZ/bgcPICUopLR975xpgjbV/; Message-ID: <410-220051413113747450 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Solar-Cold Fusion Spacecraft Propulsion Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 05:37:47 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940fd3f6b641e6dc7b148f828a023d28f56350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.110 Resent-Message-ID: <8J_eBB.A.87.jum5BB ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57329 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Can the solar sail beat losing a few grams of CO2 (Dry Ice) per square meter at 1.3 KW/meter^2? http://www.planetary.org/solarsail/ http://www.planetary.org/ Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

Can the solar sail beat losing a few grams of CO2  (Dry Ice) per square meter at 1.3 KW/meter^2?

http://www.planetary.org/solarsail/

http://www.planetary.org/

Frederick

 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 13 06:42:29 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0DEev1H020850; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 06:42:18 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0DEeuq5020843; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 06:40:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 06:40:56 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=Ye7vB0Pn+Kz3aKolfsutkyq+58kbuLcwL2yxglsITlxdm07sqUPlXPTInRKzzK4c; Message-ID: <410-220051413134047180 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Does Dry & H2O Ice Tap ZPE? Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 07:40:47 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940c12736077f0e0d7780855a23e6c1d8cd350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.185 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57330 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII What's causing the vapor pressure of Dry or Water Ice at those low temperatures? http://radio.weblogs.com/0101365/2003/09/04.html "According to the above chart, carbon dioxide of about -122°C will have a vapor pressure of 7.5 mmHg, so the solid carbon dioxide that is vaporizing near the south pole should be at a temperature slightly greater than -122°C, not -159°C as previously stated." Do humming birds carry ice packs, Jones? :-) Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

What's causing the vapor pressure of Dry or Water Ice at those low temperatures?
 

"According to the above chart, carbon dioxide of about -122°C will have a vapor pressure of 7.5 mmHg, so the solid carbon dioxide that is vaporizing near the south pole should be at a temperature slightly greater than -122°C, not -159°C as previously stated."

Do humming birds carry ice packs, Jones?   :-)

Frederick

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 13 07:48:53 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0DFlM1H005252; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 07:48:42 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0DFlHxa005216; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 07:47:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 07:47:17 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=jVDd4mXg+lepL42dZz3AAlLeZ4xbkSRlMjI730b6oDHaop+fUx9RR0WwAi1gXXPrNuuDyjd8dQi6WzFO0RbZd3w5AcCFmZaEinPHKH9mAxc1kVTHejUunpCM1QnRrkDHDigOT4Eh25Y51pt79YDo2ckTX3p0q8eM7QxI2hEQmdA= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 08:45:50 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l Subject: Re: Does Dry & H2O Ice Tap ZPE? In-Reply-To: <410-220051413134047180 earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 References: <410-220051413134047180 earthlink.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j0DFjo1H004677 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57331 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: sublimation and natural balancing of concentration of states. the only time youd have a vp of 0 would be at absolute zero, above that, your still going to have a certain amount constantly going back and forth between solid and gas states. nothing unusual about it. On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 07:40:47 -0600, Frederick Sparber wrote: > > > > What's causing the vapor pressure of Dry or Water Ice at those low > temperatures? > > http://radio.weblogs.com/0101365/2003/09/04.html > > "According to the above chart, carbon dioxide of about -122°C will have a > vapor pressure of 7.5 mmHg, so the solid carbon dioxide that is vaporizing > near the south pole should be at a temperature slightly greater than -122°C, > not -159°C as previously stated." > > Do humming birds carry ice packs, Jones? :-) > > Frederick > > -- Fairy tales are more than true: not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten. -G.K. Chesterton From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 13 09:14:11 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0DHE4Bn009444; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 09:14:05 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0DHE3JY009434; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 09:14:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 09:14:03 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <006301c4f992$a06791a0$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: , "vortex-l" References: <410-220051413134047180 earthlink.net> Subject: Re: Does Dry & H2O Ice Tap ZPE? Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 09:09:21 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57333 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Fred, > What's causing the vapor pressure of Dry or Water Ice at those low temperatures? Beta-aether > http://radio.weblogs.com/0101365/2003/09/04.html > "According to the above chart, carbon dioxide of about -122°C will have a vapor pressure of 7.5 mmHg, so the solid carbon dioxide that is vaporizing near the south pole should be at a temperature slightly greater than -122°C, not -159°C as previously stated." > Do humming birds carry ice packs, Jones? :-) No, but they could possibly be exploiting beta-aether (Casimir) effects ;-} If one could get any huge amount of inert material into earth orbit easily, or collect it over time in low earth orbit (IOW "harvest" it with drone satellites over months or years) , then perhaps you would not use simple vapor pressure and solar as your ultimate means of propulsion. Besides you would be harvesting lots of H2 and ozone anyway, which is not inert. So I cannot see the usefulness of what you are proposing Yet, to stick with the premise, if one had only dry ice to exploit, then one might get much more energy per unit weight exploiting the Bridgman effect, another beta-aether effect, which is seen in many solid insulators under uniaxial compression at high pressures. The Bridgman effect is powerful enough to produce x-rays, for instance, in inert materials such as water ice, using only applied pressure. However to get that applied pressure, one might initially use solar-induced vapor pressure plus mechanical leverage in order to achieve the precursor pressure for the Bridgman effect in a nozzle type rocket exhaust. This effect is accompanied by shock waves and high-speed (2 km/s) ejection of a destructed microdispersed substance beyond the compression system. Without using the terminology of "aether," (if you find that to be a problem) it can be said that this phenomenon evolves when the elastic energy of a strongly compressed body converts into the mechanical work, resulting in an ultrahigh-speed volume relief after the system has reached certain critical parameters. The ejecta can be focused easily, and the whole setup could possibly be OU to the extent that the Casimir effect is OU. In my somewhat non-standard (or anti-semantic, as Nick says) vocabulary, the Casimir effect is a beta-aether effect. At one time, I was convinced that this effect was the answer to solving earthly energy needs, and could be applied to an internal combustion engine. A few years back I posted on positive results obtained with simple experiments, but the scheme went nowhere, and none of the Generals was knocking at my door (GM GE etc). Because of the necessity of refrigeration (lots of it), the scheme may not appear all that interesting for power on earth, especailly in hotter climates, but in space, it could work. And if gasoline reaches double what it is now, but the price of electricity remains comparatively lower, then I think that an ice-powered engine (double ICE) is economically feasible. It would involve using home power to produce a lot of super chilled water as your "fuel" but the rate of consumption might end up being gallons per mile instead of miles per gallon. But when gasoline skyrockets in the next few years... IF robust OU from other sources or robust LENR does not appear first, which I expect it will, then we will see if Percy and Frank can come to the rescue. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 13 09:26:47 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0DHPC1H008480; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 09:26:33 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0DHP8YD008450; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 09:25:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 09:25:08 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 01:25:47 +0800 From: FHLew Subject: Re: The first sound waves left imprint on the Universe To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <005a01c4f994$eb6bc0c0$0201a8c0 fhlew> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_7GWxUe47n1GkC5Ndw3ssbQ)" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal X-ASG-Debug-ID: 1105637138-25926-239-1 X-Barracuda-URL: http://172.19.0.19:8000/cgi-bin/mark.cgi X-ASG-Orig-Subj: Re: The first sound waves left imprint on the Universe X-Virus-Scanned: by Barracuda Spam Firewall #9 at tm.net.my X-Barracuda-Spam-Score: 0.00 X-Barracuda-Spam-Status: No, SCORE=0.00 using global scores of TAG_LEVEL=1000.0 QUARANTINE_LEVEL=1000.0 KILL_LEVEL=5.5 tests=HTML_MESSAGE X-Barracuda-Spam-Report: Code version 2.64, rules version 2.1.834 Rule breakdown below pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- ------------------------------------------- 0.00 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57334 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_7GWxUe47n1GkC5Ndw3ssbQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Greetings The first sound waves left imprint on the Universe = http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/aas_universe_structure_050111.html = The Primordial Harmonic Template of the Universe ( Quantum Spherical Standing Wave ) " Everything is determined, the beginning as well as the end, by forces = over which we have no control. It is determined for insects as well as for = the stars. Human beings, vegetables, or cosmic dust, we all dance to a mysterious tune, intoned in the distance by an invisible piper." - Albert Einstein When the first thunder bolts and lightnings struck the primordial land = and water, the Template for specific resonating vibrations, was forged = for all extant vibrant entities by the cosmic fire - The Keynotes of = Life's Resonance=20 Every atom, molecule and organ of the body has a natural and optimum = frequency referred to as the "resonant" frequency. Any disresonant = object will become resonant when exposed to its keynote or resonant = frequency. This is Bioresonant Detoxification.=20 The implication of the correct frequency is health . This Primordial = Template is the Will of the Superconsciousness or God, with the = provision of Intent and Desire for evolving cosmic material.The = reflected sunlight into space by orbiting planets [ albedos ] is = vibratory gestures of goodwill and Love. The Planet Venus is described = as a planet of Love and Beauty for the simple reason that she reflects = 80% of sunlight back into space . Light is life-giving water. Light is = liquified gas,=20 In the first carbon-containing blob of basic elements is " God " - the = concept of animists ascribing the life-force (carbon) in rocks, stones = and living organisms. It takes its first " morphic breath " of Chi, = Prana or Vital Force which gives it form and pattern through = self-organizing resonant vibrations and synchronises its "Internal or = Biological Clock " with the environment in rhythm with the Schumann = Resonances and the Circadian Rhythm of 24 hour alternation of Night /Day = or Ying/Yang Cycle.=20 When the chaotic reverberations of thunder and lightning finally = subsided, there descend Symmetry and Grace when Forms and Patterns = unfold in the morphogenetic fields , sustained by the bioenergetic = radiation from transmutated minerals. Through self-organizing resonant = vibrations, basic amino acids were formed and with mineralization, these = amino acid aggregates developed catalytic properties. It is with the = synthesis of enzymes that the DNA molecules are modelled and formed with = a double helix . The fundamental property of the DNA molecule is its = immortality which differentiates it from other material. From a = molecular perspective, science has taught us that every cell in our = physical bodies originates with the original DNA molecule. The first DNA = molecule represents the fundamental note or first harmonic frequency. = Every molecule in our physical body owes its' origin to the formula = contained in this first DNA molecule. The first DNA molecule has a = formula of frequencies and assumes that molecules made directly by the = vibrational formula contained in originating molecule of DNA will have a = vibrational relationship to the original or creator DNA molecule [ = Metatones Theory ].DNA and RNA molecules, the chemical carriers of the = genetic information, are not rigid biochemical structures that can be = manipulated easily, but rather laser-active media (Hartmut Muller, Raum = & Zeit, 109, 2001, page 55). They generate optical holograms which are = in resonance with electromagnetic fields of the earth, moon and galaxy = and control both protein synthesis and embryo genesis. It, was experimentally proven ! Living DNA substance will always react to language-modulated laser rays and even to radio waves. Light and Sound equate holographic unity - Sonoluminescence The Sound of Light audible in vibrant Cosmic Silence can only be = visualized in the Universal Mind. Let there be Light The Word is God. With regards Lew --Boundary_(ID_7GWxUe47n1GkC5Ndw3ssbQ) Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Greetings
 
The first sound waves left imprint on the Universe      http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/aas_universe_structure_050111.html

 

The Primordial Harmonic Template of the Universe ( Quantum
Spherical Standing Wave )

" Everything is determined, the beginning as well as the end, by forces over
which we have no control. It is determined for insects as well as for the
stars. Human beings, vegetables, or cosmic dust, we all dance to a
mysterious tune, intoned in the distance by an invisible piper."

- Albert Einstein

When the first thunder bolts and lightnings struck the primordial land and water, the Template for specific resonating vibrations, was forged for all extant vibrant entities by the cosmic fire - The Keynotes of Life's Resonance

Every atom, molecule and organ of the body has a natural and optimum frequency referred to as the "resonant" frequency. Any disresonant object will become resonant when exposed to its keynote or resonant frequency. This is Bioresonant Detoxification.

The implication of the correct frequency is health . This Primordial Template is the Will of the Superconsciousness or God, with the provision of Intent and Desire for evolving cosmic material.The reflected sunlight into space by orbiting planets [ albedos ] is vibratory gestures of goodwill and Love. The Planet Venus is described as a planet of Love and Beauty for the simple reason that she reflects 80% of sunlight back into space . Light is life-giving water. Light is liquified gas,

In the first carbon-containing blob of basic elements is " God " - the concept of animists ascribing the life-force (carbon) in rocks, stones and living organisms. It takes its first " morphic breath " of Chi, Prana or Vital Force which gives it form and pattern through self-organizing resonant vibrations and synchronises its "Internal or Biological Clock " with the environment in rhythm with the Schumann Resonances and the Circadian Rhythm of 24 hour alternation of Night /Day or Ying/Yang Cycle.

When the chaotic reverberations of thunder and lightning finally subsided, there descend Symmetry and Grace when Forms and Patterns unfold in the morphogenetic fields , sustained by the bioenergetic radiation from transmutated minerals. Through self-organizing resonant vibrations, basic amino acids were formed and with mineralization, these amino acid aggregates developed catalytic properties. It is with the synthesis of enzymes that the DNA molecules are modelled and formed with a double helix . The fundamental property of the DNA molecule is its immortality which differentiates it from other material. From a molecular perspective, science has taught us that every cell in our physical bodies originates with the original DNA molecule. The first DNA molecule represents the fundamental note or first harmonic frequency. Every molecule in our physical body owes its' origin to the formula contained in this first DNA molecule. The first DNA molecule has a formula of frequencies and assumes that molecules made directly by the vibrational formula contained in originating molecule of DNA will have a vibrational relationship to the original or creator DNA molecule [ Metatones Theory ].DNA and RNA molecules, the chemical carriers of the genetic information, are not rigid biochemical structures that can be manipulated easily, but rather laser-active media (Hartmut Muller, Raum & Zeit, 109, 2001, page 55). They generate optical holograms which are in resonance with electromagnetic fields of the earth, moon and galaxy and control both protein synthesis and embryo genesis.

It, was experimentally
proven ! Living DNA substance will
always react to language-modulated laser rays and even to radio waves.

Light and Sound equate holographic unity - Sonoluminescence

The Sound of Light audible in vibrant Cosmic Silence can only be visualized in the Universal Mind.

Let there be Light

The Word is God.

 

With regards

   Lew

 --Boundary_(ID_7GWxUe47n1GkC5Ndw3ssbQ)-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 13 09:33:01 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0DHU0C3013759; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 09:32:56 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0DGwY4H003660; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 08:58:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 08:58:34 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type; b=XkoGUAQSD4Br1hXOE5J/TEFmBLPL8i33BVFS+1nJEOI7uVDKpAgwkQodSsmg/TX2; Message-ID: <410-220051413155821440 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Does Dry & H2O Ice Tap ZPE? Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 09:58:21 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9400971de64981803f794892b29c0b8d055350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.210 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57332 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Leaking Penisaying that it doesn't involve ZPee? :-) Frederick > [Original Message] > From: leaking pen > To: vortex-l > Date: 1/13/05 9:48:46 AM > Subject: Re: Does Dry & H2O Ice Tap ZPE? > > sublimation and natural balancing of concentration of states. the > only time youd have a vp of 0 would be at absolute zero, above that, > your still going to have a certain amount constantly going back and > forth between solid and gas states. nothing unusual about it. > > > > On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 07:40:47 -0600, Frederick Sparber > wrote: > > > > > > > > What's causing the vapor pressure of Dry or Water Ice at those low > > temperatures? > > > > http://radio.weblogs.com/0101365/2003/09/04.html > > > > "According to the above chart, carbon dioxide of about -122°C will have a > > vapor pressure of 7.5 mmHg, so the solid carbon dioxide that is vaporizing > > near the south pole should be at a temperature slightly greater than -122°C, > > not -159°C as previously stated." > > > > Do humming birds carry ice packs, Jones? :-) > > > > Frederick > > > > > > > -- > Fairy tales are more than true: not because > they tell us that dragons exist, but because > they tell us that dragons can be beaten. > -G.K. Chesterton From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 13 09:36:04 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0DHZtBn018680; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 09:35:55 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0DHZr4f018643; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 09:35:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 09:35:53 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=rp671fc+pzVrI+j++JQMAdnPbNCV5bE8LkRWHEKzYgw4HQ2yx/hIN/NxPb5uz2DSTBEAu37G7eED1PbRzN4liSv76TNIlZ9K4ozY+HYhk1T4lkNFviy/4jcunyRPgOVfcQ/qydNTCkXjl4S/LQIQ1QC+Qjnn5ZgwYSCr+/xHuxw= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 10:35:50 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l Subject: Solar cell not solitary confinement anymore In-Reply-To: <410-220051413155821440 earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <410-220051413155821440 earthlink.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57335 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=585&ncid=585&e=1&u=/nm/20050113/sc_nm/energy_canada_solar_dc_1 interesting story. new solar cell is 30 percent efficient. nice. very nice. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 13 09:39:09 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0DHbX1H014259; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 09:38:57 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0DHbVxv014223; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 09:37:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 09:37:31 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type; b=UvS4fZDyDSoJAmdlIyPPCIollz/73o7rsjd/7wYwKVfI+oTmiTvzr2PjqDHnuNpD; Message-ID: <410-220051413163722250 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Does Dry & H2O Ice Tap ZPE? Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 10:37:22 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940f8c71920c3173488a16b0f005d6b3ab6350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.159.207 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57336 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene > Fred, > > > What's causing the vapor pressure of Dry or Water Ice at > those low temperatures? > > Beta-aether > Either that or 3 K radiation. > > > http://radio.weblogs.com/0101365/2003/09/04.html > > "According to the above chart, carbon dioxide of > about -122°C will have a vapor pressure of 7.5 mmHg, so the > solid carbon dioxide that is vaporizing near the south pole > should be at a temperature slightly greater than -122°C, > not -159°C as previously stated." > > > Do humming birds carry ice packs, Jones? :-) > > No, but they could possibly be exploiting beta-aether > (Casimir) effects ;-} > Through CO2 or H2O in their systems? > > If one could get any huge amount of inert material into > earth orbit easily, or collect it over time in low earth > orbit (IOW "harvest" it with drone satellites over months or > years) , then perhaps you would not use simple vapor > pressure and solar as your ultimate means of propulsion. > Besides you would be harvesting lots of H2 and ozone anyway, > which is not inert. So I cannot see the usefulness of what > you are proposing > At 200 Joule/gram sublimation energy a square meter surface of Dry Ice in space kicks off 6.5 grams of CO2 molecules per second at a velocity of about 325 meters per second at 1.3 KW/meter^2 solar or CF photon insolation.That translates to a significant Specific Impulse (isp). Water Ice sublimation gives much less isp due to the higher sublimation energy requirement and lower molecular weight.. > Frederick > Yet, to stick with the premise, if one had only dry ice to > exploit, then one might get much more energy per unit weight > exploiting the Bridgman effect, another beta-aether effect, > which is seen in many solid insulators under uniaxial > compression at high pressures. The Bridgman effect is > powerful enough to produce x-rays, for instance, in inert > materials such as water ice, using only applied pressure. > > However to get that applied pressure, one might initially > use solar-induced vapor pressure plus mechanical leverage in > order to achieve the precursor pressure for the Bridgman > effect in a nozzle type rocket exhaust. This effect is > accompanied by shock waves and high-speed (2 km/s) ejection > of a destructed microdispersed substance beyond the > compression system. Without using the terminology of > "aether," (if you find that to be a problem) it can be said > that this phenomenon evolves when the elastic energy of a > strongly compressed body converts into the mechanical work, > resulting in an ultrahigh-speed volume relief after the > system has reached certain critical parameters. The ejecta > can be focused easily, and the whole setup could possibly be > OU to the extent that the Casimir effect is OU. In my > somewhat non-standard (or anti-semantic, as Nick says) > vocabulary, the Casimir effect is a beta-aether effect. > > At one time, I was convinced that this effect was the answer > to solving earthly energy needs, and could be applied to an > internal combustion engine. A few years back I posted on > positive results obtained with simple experiments, but the > scheme went nowhere, and none of the Generals was knocking > at my door (GM GE etc). Because of the necessity of > refrigeration (lots of it), the scheme may not appear all > that interesting for power on earth, especailly in hotter > climates, but in space, it could work. And if gasoline > reaches double what it is now, but the price of electricity > remains comparatively lower, then I think that an > ice-powered engine (double ICE) is economically feasible. > > It would involve using home power to produce a lot of super > chilled water as your "fuel" but the rate of consumption > might end up being gallons per mile instead of miles per > gallon. > > But when gasoline skyrockets in the next few years... IF > robust OU from other sources or robust LENR does not appear > first, which I expect it will, then we will see if Percy and > Frank can come to the rescue. > > Jones > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 13 10:11:39 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0DIBYBn028046; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 10:11:34 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0DIBS9i027993; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 10:11:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 10:11:28 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <009801c4f99a$abcaf020$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: , References: <410-220051413163722250 earthlink.net> Subject: Re: Does Dry & H2O Ice Tap ZPE? Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 10:06:56 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57337 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Fred, > > Beta-aether > Either that or 3 K radiation. The two (CMB and B-A) ARE connected in a surprising way. > a velocity of about 325 meters per second at 1.3 KW/meter^2 solar or CF photon insolation. That translates to a significant Specific Impulse (isp). Yes. Although it is far less (6x less) than the Bridgman effect with water ice, which does NOT require thermal input. It would be interesting to compare apples-to-apples however. I do not have a clue about CO2 under Bridgman type pressures. Water ice does have one big advantage in regard to exploiting Casimir. When a water molecule freezes rapidly, it becomes a fully hydrogen-bonded structure with strong and straight hydrogen bonds (such as hexagonal ice) then it can only have four nearest neighbors, due to the angles of its near tetrahedral molecular hydrogen sites. This give an incredible amount of built-in strain, all "free" due to the Casimir effect on hydrogen bonds. IOW that is where the OU part could come in. In the liquid phase, molecules approach more closely due to the partial collapse of the tightly hydrogen bonded network. Closer neighbors mean higher density. As the temperature of liquid water increases, the continuing collapse of the hydrogen bonded network allows unbonded molecules to approach more closely so increasing the number of nearest neighbors. The maximum density of water is a most curious feature, as it occurs at 4 degrees C. Regular ice is lower density but there are many varieties of ice (yes the IS an Ice-9) where the density is higher than liquid water and these ices would not float. BTW, Ice-9 is 16 percent denser than water. Vonnegut was a little more thorough in his fantasy world than most of us thought....right? He at least had some of the physics down. If you cannot imagine the repercussions of what happens when ice sinks, then go to the library's Sci-Fi section and look under "V." This behavior is in contrast to normal liquids where the increasing kinetic energy of molecules and space available due to expansion, as the temperature is raised, means that it becomes less likely that molecules will be found closer to each other and the density always decreases with increasing temperature. Most of this is info is authoritative and derived from Martin Chaplin's website (the best place on the web to learn about water and its many quirks): http://www.sbu.ac.uk/water/index.html Anyway, the advantage of superchilled water is that you can get that high acceleration gradient, about 6 times higher than CO2 sublimation, courtesy of Casimir... and just by squirting it into a vacuum without any external heat being applied. You are not dependent on solar, so you could go wherever in the universe desired... if you could somehow avoid the problems of aging... Oh don't we wish for that. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 13 10:44:42 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0DIiYBn008061; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 10:44:35 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0DIiXDC008050; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 10:44:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 10:44:33 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050113132933.02a1adc0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 13:44:21 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Would appreciate PR for book In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050112145431.02a6ddf0 pop.mindspring.com> References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050112145431.02a6ddf0 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_15140062==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57338 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_15140062==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I think people here must be spreading the word about the book, because downloads increased from around 15 per day to 35 yesterday, and 35 more today (so far). Thank you everyone. Obviously, I have no advertising budget, and word-of-mouth is the only way to promote the book -- or the web site, for that matter. I have not tried to promote LENR-CANR much, mainly because I cannot think of how to promote it, but also because most of the papers are only of interest to a narrow range of people, and I figure most of the audience will hear about it through normal channels. And via Google, of course. The book, on the other hand, is supposed to appeal to the general public, so I think it needs more of a concerted outreach. Also, the book is not something you would go looking for with Google. A person interested in "cold fusion" and "neutrons" will soon do a web search and find LENR-CANR.org, but not many people have thought to look for the subjects grouped together in the book. Nine people have ordered printed copies. I ordered them on January 5, so they should arrive any day now. I am a little surprised anyone wants a copy. I assumed nobody would want to order a book for $25 that they can have for free over the Internet. By the way, if you would like to print it, I recommend you can put it on a CD-ROM and bring it to Kinko's or Office Depot. They can print and bind a black-and-white copy in about 10 minutes, for $14. - Jed --=====================_15140062==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" I think people here must be spreading the word about the book, because downloads increased from around 15 per day to 35 yesterday, and 35 more today (so far). Thank you everyone. Obviously, I have no advertising budget, and word-of-mouth is the only way to promote the book -- or the web site, for that matter.

I have not tried to promote LENR-CANR much, mainly because I cannot think of how to promote it, but also because most of the papers are only of interest to a narrow range of people, and I figure most of the audience will hear about it through normal channels. And via Google, of course. The book, on the other hand, is supposed to appeal to the general public, so I think it needs more of a concerted outreach. Also, the book is not something you would go looking for with Google. A person interested in "cold fusion" and "neutrons" will soon do a web search and find LENR-CANR.org, but not many people have thought to look for the subjects grouped together in the book.

Nine people have ordered printed copies. I ordered them on January 5, so they should arrive any day now. I am a little surprised anyone wants a copy. I assumed nobody would want to order a book for $25 that they can have for free over the Internet.

By the way, if you would like to print it, I recommend you can put it on a CD-ROM and bring it to Kinko's or Office Depot. They can print and bind a black-and-white copy in about 10 minutes, for $14.

- Jed
 --=====================_15140062==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 13 11:15:03 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0DJEmhB016417; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 11:14:48 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0DJEav0016327; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 11:14:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 11:14:36 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: <9731db4d-12d4-4618-8504-9416ca367527> Message-ID: <17d701c4f9a4$13c755c0$2657ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <97807918-650B-11D9-B494-000A27913A2A incanberra.com.au> Subject: Re: NEW ENERGY TIMES (tm) Jan. 10, 2005 -- Issue #8 Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 13:55:18 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57339 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dave wrote: > The biggest controversy surrounding the Wright brothers is whether they > were actually the first to fly. I gather New Zealand has a prior claim > with Richard Pearse. > Others got into the air before the Wrights, including Pearse. The critical issue is controlled flight, including turns and landing, which the Wrights achieved first. Jed's the expert here, perhaps he can comment. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 13 12:20:26 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0DKKGT4007488; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 12:20:16 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0DKKEEr007467; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 12:20:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 12:20:14 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050113202010.00970d88 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 20:20:10 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Does Dry & H2O Ice Tap ZPE? Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57340 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:06 13/01/2005 -0800, you wrote: >Fred, > >> > Beta-aether > >> Either that or 3 K radiation. > >The two (CMB and B-A) ARE connected in a surprising way. > >> a velocity of about 325 meters per second at 1.3 >KW/meter^2 solar or CF photon insolation. That translates to >a significant Specific Impulse (isp). > >Yes. Although it is far less (6x less) than the Bridgman >effect with water ice, which does NOT require thermal input. >It would be interesting to compare apples-to-apples however. >I do not have a clue about CO2 under Bridgman type >pressures. > >Water ice does have one big advantage in regard to >exploiting Casimir. When a water molecule freezes rapidly, >it becomes a fully hydrogen-bonded structure with strong and >straight hydrogen bonds (such as hexagonal ice) then it can >only have four nearest neighbors, due to the angles of its >near tetrahedral molecular hydrogen sites. This give an >incredible amount of built-in strain, all "free" due to the >Casimir effect on hydrogen bonds. IOW that is where the OU >part could come in. > >In the liquid phase, molecules approach more closely due to >the partial collapse of the tightly hydrogen bonded network. >Closer neighbors mean higher density. As the temperature of >liquid water increases, the continuing collapse of the >hydrogen bonded network allows unbonded molecules to >approach more closely so increasing the number of nearest >neighbors. > >The maximum density of water is a most curious feature, as >it occurs at 4 degrees C. Regular ice is lower density but >there are many varieties of ice (yes the IS an Ice-9) where >the density is higher than liquid water and these ices would >not float. > >BTW, Ice-9 is 16 percent denser than water. Vonnegut was a >little more thorough in his fantasy world than most of us >thought....right? He at least had some of the physics down. >If you cannot imagine the repercussions of what happens when >ice sinks, then go to the library's Sci-Fi section and look >under "V." > >This behavior is in contrast to normal liquids where the >increasing kinetic energy of molecules and space available >due to expansion, as the temperature is raised, means that >it becomes less likely that molecules will be found closer >to each other and the density always decreases with >increasing temperature. > >Most of this is info is authoritative and derived from >Martin Chaplin's website (the best place on the web to learn >about water and its many quirks): >http://www.sbu.ac.uk/water/index.html > >Anyway, the advantage of superchilled water is that you can >get that high acceleration gradient, about 6 times higher >than CO2 sublimation, courtesy of Casimir... and just by >squirting it into a vacuum without any external heat being >applied. You are not dependent on solar, so you could go >wherever in the universe desired... if you could somehow >avoid the problems of aging... Oh don't we wish for that. > >Jones Mmm...very interesting. I wish I could have written all that. ;^) Cheers, Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 13 12:42:39 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0DKgZhB008130; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 12:42:35 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0DKgSco008095; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 12:42:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 12:42:28 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 15:41:12 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: serious chewing and eotvos In-reply-to: <2.2.32.20050113112754.006ac658 pop.freeserve.net> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: <9GoIND.A.X-B.00t5BB ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57341 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Grimer at f.grimer grimer2.freeserve.co.uk wrote: > At 03:42 am 13-01-05 -0500, Harry wrote: > >> Do thing 1 and thing 2 come with a thing-force to keep them together? > > > By George, (s)he's got it, Pickering. By George, (s)he's got it. ;^) > > Of course they do. That was implicit in the analogy. > It's no good having a sail and a hull if they haven't got > a "thing-force" to hold them together, is it! 8-) > > Cheers. > > Grimer > All this flows from _your_ force analysis of orbital motion. I think it is a mistaken analysis because it is based on an analogy between orbital motion and a body in a centrifuge. A body orbits the earth because it is in free fall. There is simply no outward force associated with that sort of motion. The bottom line is mechanical systems do not accurately model gravitational systems. However, for sake of argument, I will accept your force analysis of orbital motion, but you still have a problem explaining why weight should not arise because most bodies consist of protons and neutrons. Your explanation only covers bodies composed of thing 1 and thing 2 particles. Harry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 13 14:07:50 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0DM7khB028287; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 14:07:46 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0DM7eSi028241; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 14:07:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 14:07:40 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 16:24:41 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: Solar-Cold Fusion Spacecraft Propulsion In-reply-to: <410-220051413104517630 earthlink.net> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57342 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frederick Sparber at fjsparber earthlink.net wrote: > I'm not so sure about that numerically challenged part, Horace. > > I come up with about 90 lbs thrust per square meter for CO2 sublimation, and > about 20 lbs per square meter for H2O ice sublimation thrust. > > With "CO2 Smoke and Mirrors" you can fly a spacecraft toward the sun too. > :-) > > Frederick How would one measure thrust from sublimation to check the theoretical predictions? Harry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 13 14:16:22 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0DMGET4017147; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 14:16:14 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0DMGDhE017137; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 14:16:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 14:16:13 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type; b=qEpkWQtA2ut+QTf7RCNFyUVljKiYShrkJ5h7UTsWokqXiTLsgyvivbtzn1RQvyFf; Message-ID: <410-22005141321163220 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Solar-Cold Fusion Spacecraft Propulsion Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 15:16:03 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9400833a1680ec1dad584bbe37d0ae4759f350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.159.126 Resent-Message-ID: <3fUMjC.A.tLE.sMv5BB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57343 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: : Harry Veeder wrote > > How would one measure thrust from sublimation to check the theoretical > predictions? > Try two or four trays of dry or water ice in a Crookes Radiometer type setup Frederick > > Harry > > > > > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 13 15:31:55 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0DNVnhB013348; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 15:31:49 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0DNVleT013330; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 15:31:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 15:31:47 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 14:40:11 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Does Dry & H2O Ice Tap ZPE? Resent-Message-ID: <96ciSD.A.OQD.jTw5BB ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57344 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:20 AM 1/13/5, Grimer wrote: >Mmm...very interesting. I wish I could have written all that. ;^) > It's amazing how stuff one posts here comes back in various forms at later times. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 13 19:45:28 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0E3jGT4027138; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 19:45:17 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0E3jED0027126; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 19:45:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 19:45:14 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=eAcJKyPjo+ZAYc5NM0lezECpaHWAtj6xK+EdBknAogX6ILk1UOYOdk95u/vzdoVHwnj3LA8a6MeSqNH03VoQCXr8xIJMady1HD6OESCPzepx26drYRkynCKx+cnGC4xS0MeXv7Vb6xB4d/Z0bomHiSzeKVGDzoSVfKEgCGj5OZc= ; Message-ID: <20050114034507.20841.qmail web51708.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 19:45:07 -0800 (PST) From: Terry Blanton Subject: Re: Solar-Cold Fusion Spacecraft Propulsion To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57345 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- Horace Heffner wrote: > Yep, right on two counts. I have it! Most folks > here just call it cabin > fever. This one's a bit expensive; but, I bet you could build one with some gro-lux tubes: http://www.alaskanorthernlights.com/ A recent PBS program showed they *do* work. As for the wind . . . wind turbine generators? Terry (Recovering from cataract surgery. An interesting experience.) __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 13 20:59:02 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0E4wmT4017508; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 20:58:48 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0E4wfLv017471; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 20:58:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 20:58:41 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Standing Bear To: vortex-l eskimo.com, Kyle Mcallister Subject: Re: Superluminal and relativity Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 00:11:07 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 References: <20041212021249.66374.qmail web12405.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20041212021249.66374.qmail web12405.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200501140011.07870.rockcast earthlink.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57346 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Saturday 11 December 2004 21:12, Kyle Mcallister wrote: > Hello all, > > The recent discussions of FTL signalling and its > repercussions is interesting to me, and is something > which has troubled my mind for many years. After > studying special relativity, particularly the > implications of relativity of simultaneity and the > rejection of absolute separation of past and future > for spatially displaced observers, and how all this > relates to objects moving with speeds greater than c, > I feel some new thought on this is needed. > > By now we all know about the 'twin paradox' and > Dingle's questioning of the validity of special > relativity on grounds that equivalence of all frames > of reference should make both twins be younger and > older at the same time when they meet up later on, and > the subsequent explanation provided by conventional > physics as to why one is truly younger and one is > truly older. The issue gets a little more complex if > we change the setting a bit. > > Consider a particle which is created without > experiencing acceleration. Say, a precursor particle > exists, and undergoes decay into daughter particles, > one of which is moving at nearly c upon creation, it > did not accelerate there. As far as this particle is > concerned, it did not feel any acceleration > whatsoever, it is merely there. It also does not know > that it is moving at a highly relativistic speed. Let > us call this particle A. Now A is moving along at > 0.99c with respect to an observer, call it O. O was > moving at the same speed as the precursor particle > which created A. We can't say that O's frame is at > rest, due to relativity. But we can illuminate things > a bit with careful use of 'with repect to', > abbreviated WRT. Let us say that A emits a particle B > which moves at -0.99c WRT A, as seen by O. Let us > restrict ourselves to a 1+1 universe with only X and T > coordinates. In these conditions, B is now moving at > the same speed as O...it has come to a 'stop'. B turns > around, and moves back to A at speed slighly greater > than 0.99c WRT O, to overtake and meet back up with A. > A will see, due to the relativistic solution to the > twin paradox, that B is younger than himself...or will > he? If everyone meets up in the end to compare notes, > things might not look right. According to O, left > behind at the precursor point, A suddenly appeared and > was moving at 0.99c, and thusly aging much slower than > O due to clock retardation. A then emitted B, which > slowed to rest WRT O, and thus began aging faster than > A. B then accelerated back up to overtake and merge > with A again. B should be older than A, according to > O, unless the time spend at a speed greater than A's > to overtake cancels the effect out. Does it? I don't > know, it would probably take a good bit of > spacetime-diagramming to know precisely. It would have > to have B aging so slowly during the overtake that A > would age enough to be truly older than B upon > rearrival. > > A on the other hand, sees B move away from himself, > and thus age much slower. B then turns around, and > accelerates to overtake and merge with A. A should > always see B to age less than himself, and on the > overtake, B should be seen to age MUCH less. > > So what happens? Do things during the critical > overtake arrange themselves such that according to > both O and A, B is younger than A? Or do O and A > disagree? You begin to get a picture of how complex > the issues are. > > What happens if we have a 1+1 spacetime with a > topology such that the X direction loops back upon > itself? Meaning, go in the X (or -X) direction long > enough, and you end up back where you started. If you > do this, you never have to have any overtake to let A > and B meet back up, it just happens because of the way > spacetime is topologically conditioned. I am not > talking of a gravitational 'warp' of some kind, just a > closed universe. Some will likely argue that GR is > required to understand this...I don't know. It would > seem that A could continue on its merry way, only to > eventually meet back up with B. Since B was seen from > A to move away at relativistic speed, A should see B > is younger than himself. However, according to O, B > slowed down, and thus A should be the younger one, for > he was moving much faster than B was. Who is right? > Well, I suppose you could argue that since the > topology loops back on itself that according to A, B > changed direction, and so did O. But they would always > be moving relativistically WRT A, and thus should > appear younger. B (or O) will see that A changed > direction. Thus, A should be youngest according to > both, since A was always moving at relativistic speed. > In the conventional twin paradox, we have one twin who > can be argued to have taken the TRULY longer path > through spacetime, and thus be TRULY younger. But in > this case of looped topology, you can't really say > that. The whole thing is symmetric from either point > of view. Anyone have any thoughts on this? How is this > solved? CAN it be solved? One way would be to define > some frame of reference (not necessarily A's or B's or > O's) to be absolute, and then the symmetry is > automatically broken. But of course, this is in > violation to the postulates of special relativity, and > is said to be 'unnecessarily complex'. One wonders > what is more complex... > > --Kyle On this, suppose that there is another wrinkle, this one of time. Suppose time were multidimensional as space is, then this would give rise to time lines ad infinitum, accomodating all manner of would be paradoxes as long as one kept to the dictum of Thomas Wolfe...you cannot go home again...say no two timelines can be truly congruent. That would be the same as saying no two entities can share the same principle quantum numbers within our universe. This would open many new paths of strangeness in our universe. Standing Bear .....the light barrier, like the sound barrier before it, is made to be broken. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 13 21:16:25 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0E5GCT4023226; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 21:16:12 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0E5G8KQ023191; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 21:16:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 21:16:08 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Standing Bear To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The Big Science Chill Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 00:28:32 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200501140020.32241.rockcast earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57347 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Saturday 08 January 2005 16:34, Harry Veeder wrote: > http://www.technewsworld.com/story/39360.html > > COMMENTARY > > The Big Science Chill > > By Sonia Arrison > TechNewsWorld > 01/07/05 5:00 AM PT > > When smart people in California's tech mecca fail, they pick up the pieces > and the community pats them on the back for taking a risk in the name of > progress. Some entrepreneurs even take a different stab at the same idea > with the hope that they'll be able to do it better. So why does the pure > science community play by different rules? > > > > Many people think of scientific disciplines, such as chemistry or physics, > as purely fact-based endeavors, not concerned with the fuzzy field of > politics. That's rarely the case because when humans are involved, things > often get messy. > > A perfect example is the question of cold fusion. Back in 1989, scientists > Stanley Pons and Martin Fleischmann announced they had discovered cold > fusion, or nuclear energy that could be released at room temperature and > would produce clean, cheap energy. A media frenzy followed, but excitement > over the announcement quickly dissipated when others had trouble > replicating their results. > > Whether or not cold fusion will eventually work on a consistent basis is > still up in the air. But the political fallout from the Pons and > Fleischmann announcement was so bad that it almost completely wiped out > research in an extremely important field. Because of this announcement, and > the subsequent failure to reproduce results, cold-fusion research became > stigmatized and regarded by many scientists as a hoax. > > > > What Happened to Persistence? > > In 1999, Time magazine called cold fusion one of the 100 worst ideas of the > century, and others ridiculed it as nothing more than an "Elvis sighting." > But not everyone agrees. Scientists such as SRI International's Michael > McKubre and Peter Hagelstein, who designed the X-ray laser that was to be a > part of President Reagan's "Star Wars" anti-ballistic missile system, are > betting cold fusion can work. And governments around the world are putting > money into research. > > Given that there are smart, competent people on both sides of the debate, > one might wonder what happened to the American attitude of accepting past > failures and trying to build on them. In this respect, the scientific > community could learn a lot from Silicon Valley. > > When smart, well-regarded people in California's tech mecca fail, they pick > up the pieces and the community pats them on the back for taking a risk in > the name of progress. Heck, some entrepreneurs even take a different stab > at the same idea with the hope that they'll be able to do it better. So why > does the pure science community play by different rules? > > Slaves to Data > > Perhaps it's because there's a public perception that scientifically > derived data cannot be subject to interpretation, and that skews behavior. > Or, as some researchers have suggested, maybe it's because the scientific > community acts under a paternalistic type of data-releasing regime that > says results should not be announced to the impressionable public until > they are sanctioned by the top dogs of the group. > > This scientific McCarthyism has a chilling effect on research and could be > holding America back from major scientific breakthroughs. If we could > figure out cold fusion, we'd have a clean, cheap energy source that would > last for an incredibly long time. And that would mean less reliance on oil > exporting countries, as well as a cleaner environment and a better standard > of living. So even if some experts say it's a long shot, isn't it worth > working towards? > > Yet the U.S. Department of Energy continues to tiptoe around the issue, and > the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office refuses to grant a patent on any > invention claiming cold fusion. That's almost a categorical denial of any > research money for this important field. Further, getting an article on > cold fusion published in any scientific journal is almost impossible. The > scientific community is starting to look pretty regressive and reactionary. > > Saving Good Ideas > > "We have always been open to proposals that have scientific merit as > determined by peer review," said the Energy Department's James Decker. But > what happens when the peers in question might lose their hot fission > research money if cold fusion were possible? Or consider the comments of an > embittered Fleischmann to a Wired reporter in 1998: "What you have to ask > yourself is who wants this discovery? Do you imagine the seven sisters [the > world's top oil companies] want it? ... And do you really think that the > Department of Defense wants electrochemists producing nuclear reactions in > test tubes?" > > The answer is that Americans want a clean, cheap and abundant energy source > if they can get it. And they certainly don't want some other country, > potentially one with terrorists, to figure it out first. > > Bureaucracy in both the private and public sectors can kill good ideas. > America needs a return to the days when renaissance men and women populated > the field of scientific discovery. If the cold fusion issue is indicative > of where scientific inquiry is today, creativity and thinking outside the > bureaucratic box appear to be sorely needed. Our world depends on it. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Sonia Arrison, a TechNewsWorld columnist, is director of Technology Studies > at the California-based Pacific Research Institute. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ the US Patent Office refuses to patent any cold fusion. How quaint! Last I heard was that they grant 'business method' patents all the time. One worthy was the little turnstile on the check out lanes at Wal-Mart. Wal-Mart has actually sued other companies for having product carrier turnstiles [lazy susans]. If you can get a patent on fluff like that but not on cold fusion, not to mention all the other patents that have been granted wrongfully on foolishness, then scientific progress has no welcome home in the United States. Better go to a foreign country that is a member of the WTO and get it patented there. Then the US will have to honor it by reciprocity. Standing Bear From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 13 21:56:10 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0E5tuT4005228; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 21:55:56 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0E5tsBS005209; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 21:55:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 21:55:54 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <410-22005151455541170 ix.netcom.com> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: aki ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.1.47.0 (Windows) From: "Akira Kawasaki" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Physics Today Article on DoE re-review of CF effect. Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 21:55:41 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: c4cc7f5f697e8746f66dc3a06d5924d8b82d6f812684c954573b80136eeaf8de3122699149cfe979350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.232.39.4 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57348 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: January 13, 2005 Vortex, Snail mail being what it is, I received the January issue (Volume 58 issue One) of Physics Today yesterday. There is a short column in the 'Issues and Events' listed in the Table of Contents titled "Cold Fusion gets a chilly Encore", by Toni Feder. The article goes over the brief history of the Pons & Fleischmann's CF claims and DOE's original study of them (Huizenga's committee). What the DoE seems to find, after review of 14 selected revirewer's varied, uneven comments on the status of CF since 1989 was that, in sum, CF was not a repeatable science, not well documented, and the magnitude of the effect if it exists, is not of any greater magnitude since 1989, The DoE is taking the side of the negative. The positive conclusions in the minority review, the DoE found not sufficient to fund as a general area of research. However DoE left the door open for future specific research proposal fundng as passed upon by the 'peer review and relevance'. What this means for actual funding approvals to come across, I don'y know. It looks more like an escape hatch for the DoE position rather than a door of opportunity for CF reasearcher. Yet the proponents fo the re-review process seems to be happy with the scraps. They have found a measure of scientific respectability and a huge increase in (I presume private) funding inquiries, as per McKubre and Hagelstein. There are web links available to access DoE's CF review release and also the individual reviewer's comments. These have been availbla in Steven Krivt's New Energy Times website and Jed Rothwell's LENR/CANR website much earlier than now. -ak- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 13 23:05:16 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0E7548h025146; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 23:05:04 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0E74f8I025009; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 23:04:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 23:04:41 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050114070226.006b39f4 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 07:02:26 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Superluminal and relativity Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57349 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:11 am 14-01-05 -0500, Standing Bear wrote: > On this, suppose that there is another wrinkle, this one > of time. Suppose time were multidimensional as space is, > then this would give rise to time lines ad infinitum, accomodating > all manner of would be paradoxes as long as one kept to the > dictum of Thomas Wolfe...you cannot go home again...say no > two timelines can be truly congruent. That would be the same > as saying no two entities can share the same principle quantum > numbers within our universe. This would open many new paths > of strangeness in our universe. > > Standing Bear Time IS as "multidimensional as space is" and Wolfe is wrong. You can go home again but you can't take everyone else with you. It's just a question of looking at Time in the right way. See:- http://www.journaloftheoretics.com/Articles/5-3/commentary5-3a.pdf Cheers, Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 13 23:10:39 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0E7AZMc009495; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 23:10:35 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0E7AMnA009431; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 23:10:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 23:10:22 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 02:08:40 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: Solar-Cold Fusion Spacecraft Propulsion In-reply-to: <410-22005141321163220 earthlink.net> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id j0E7AKMc009414 Resent-Message-ID: <6L-XPB.A.TTC.eB35BB ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57350 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frederick Sparber at fjsparber earthlink.net wrote: > > : Harry Veeder wrote >> >> How would one measure thrust from sublimation to check the theoretical >> predictions? >> > Try two or four trays of dry or water ice in a Crookes Radiometer type > setup > > Frederick >> >> Harry >> I did not know what you meant by a "Crookes Radiometer", but after searching with google I realised I owned one. lol. BTW, the discussion below considers serveral explanations and but says air molecules hitting the EDGES of the vanes is the correct explanation of motion at a certain level of air pressure. If that is true, then would wire threads spin as well? Harry http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/General/LightMill/light-mill.html updated June 1997 by PEG. Original by Philip Gibbs July 1996. How does a light-mill work? In 1873, while investigating infrared radiation and the element thallium, the eminent Victorian experimenter Sir William Crookes developed a special kind of radiometer, an instrument for measuring radiant energy of heat and light.  Crookes's Radiometer is today marketed as a conversation piece called a light-mill or solar engine.  It consists of four vanes each of which is blackened on one side and silvered on the other.  These are attached to the arms of a rotor which is balanced on a vertical support in such a way that it can turn with very little friction.  The mechanism is encased inside a clear glass bulb which has been pumped out to a high, but not perfect, vacuum. When sunlight falls on the light-mill the vanes turn with the black surfaces apparently being pushed away by the light.  Crookes at first believed this demonstrated that light radiation pressure on the black vanes was turning it round just like water in a water mill.  His paper reporting the device was refereed by James Clerk Maxwell who accepted the explanation Crookes gave.  It seems that Maxwell was delighted to see a demonstration of the effect of radiation pressure as predicted by his theory of electromagnetism.  But there is a problem with this explanation.  Light falling on the black side should be absorbed, while light falling on the silver side of the vanes should be reflected.  The net result is that there is twice as much radiation pressure on the metal side as on the black.  In that case the mill is turning the wrong way. When this was realised other explanations for the radiometer effect were sought and some of the ones that people came up with are still mistakenly quoted as the correct one.  It was clear that the black side would absorb heat from infrared radiation more than the silver side.  This would cause the rarefied gas to be heated on the black side.  The obvious explanation in that case, is that the pressure of the gas on the darker size increases with its temperature creating a higher force on that side of the vane.  This force would push the rotor round.  Maxwell analysed this theory carefully presumably being wary about making a second mistake.  He discovered that in fact the warmer gas would simply expand in such a way that there would be no net force from this effect, just a steady flow of heat across the vanes.  So it is wrong, but even the Encyclopaedia Britannica gives this false explanation today.  As a variation on this theme, it is sometimes said that the motion of the hot molecules on the black side of the vane provide the push.  Again this is not correct and could only work if the mean free path between molecular collisions were as large as the container, but in fact it is typically less than a millimetre. To understand why these common explanations are wrong think first of a simpler set-up in which a tube of gas is kept hot at one end and cool at the other.  If the gas behaves according to the ideal gas laws with isotropic pressure, it will settle into a steady state with a temperature gradient along the tube.  The pressure will be the same throughout otherwise net forces would disturb the gas.  The density would vary inversely to temperature along the tube.  There will be a flow of heat from the hot end to the other but the force on both ends will be the same because the pressure is equal.  Any mechanism you might conjecture that would give a stronger force on thehot end than on the cool end with no tangential forces along the length of the tube cannot be correct since otherwise there would be a net force on the tube with no opposite reaction.  The radiometer is a little more complex but the same principle should apply.  No net force can be generated by normal forces on the faces of the vanes because pressure would quickly equalise to a steady state with just a flow of heat through the gas. Another blind alley was the theory that the heat vaporised gases dissolved in the black coating which then leaked out.  This outgassing would propel the vanes round.  Actually, such an effect does exist but it is not the real explanation as can be demonstrated by cooling the radiometer.  It is found that the rotor then turns the other way.  Furthermore, if the gas is pumped out to make a much higher vacuum, the vanes stop turning.  This suggests that the rarefied gas is involved in the effect.  For similar reasons, the theory that the rotation is propelled by electrons dislodged by the photoelectric effect is also ruled out.  One last incorrect explanation which is sometimes given is that the heating sets up convection currents with a horizontal component that turns the vanes.  Sorry, wrong again.  The effect cannot be explained this way. The correct solution to the problem was provided qualitatively by Osborne Reynolds, better remembered for the "Reynolds number".  Early in 1879 Reynolds submitted a paper to the Royal Society in which he considered what he called "thermal transpiration", and also discussed the theory of the radiometer.  By "thermal transpiration" Reynolds meant the flow of gas through porous plates caused by a temperature difference on the two sides of the plates.  If the gas is initially at the same pressure on the two sides, there is a flow of gas from the colder to the hotter side, resulting in a higher pressure on the hotter side if the plates cannot move.  Equilibrium is reached when the ratio of pressures on either side is the square root of the ratio of absolute temperatures.  This is a counterintuitive effect due to tangential forces between the gas molecules and the sides of the narrow pores in the plates.  The effect of these thermomolecular forces is very similar to the thermomechanical effects of superfluid liquid helium.  The liquid, which lacks all viscosity, will climb the sides of its container towards a warmer region.  If a thin capillary is dipped into the superfluid it flows up the tube at such speed that a fountain effect is produced at the other end. The vanes of a radiometer are not porous.  To explain the radiometer, therefore, one must focus attention not on the faces of the vanes, but on their edges.  The faster molecules from the warmer side strike the edges obliquely and impart a higher force than the colder molecules.  Again these are the same thermomolecular forces that are responsible for thermal transpiration.  The effect is also known as thermal creep since it causes gases to creep along a surface where there is a temperature gradient.  The net movement of the vane due to the tangential forces around the edges is away from the warmer gas and towards the cooler gas with the gas passing round the edge in the opposite direction.  The behaviour is just as if there were a greater force on the blackened side of the vane (which as Maxwell showed is not the case), but the explanation must be in terms of what happens not at the faces of the vanes but near their edges. Maxwell refereed Reynolds's paper, and so became aware of Reynolds's suggestion.  Maxwell at once made a detailed mathematical analysis of the problem, and submitted his paper, "On stresses in rarefied gases arising from inequalities of temperature", for publication in the Philosophical Transactions; it appeared in 1879, shortly before his death.  The paper gave due credit to Reynolds's suggestion that the effect is at the edges of the vanes, but criticised Reynolds's mathematical treatment.  Reynolds's paper had not yet appeared (it was published in 1881), and Reynolds was incensed by the fact that Maxwell's paper had not only appeared first, but had criticised his unpublished work!  Reynolds wanted his protest to be published by the Royal Society, but after Maxwell's death this was thought to be inappropriate. By the way.  It is possible to measure radiation pressure using a more refined apparatus.  To make it work you have to use a much better vacuum, suspend the vanes from fine fibers and coat the vanes with an inert glass to prevent out-gassing.  When you succeed the vanes are deflected the other way as predicted by Maxwell.  The experiment is very difficult but was first done successfully in 1901 by Pyotr Lebedev and also by Eenest Nichols and Gordon Hull. References Original papers by Maxwell and Reynolds: "On stresses in rarefied gases arising from inequalities of temperature" James Clerk Maxwell, Royal Society Phil. Trans. (1879) "On certain dimensional properties of matter in the gaseous state" Osborne Reynolds, Royal Society Phil. Trans., Part 2, (1879) Original papers on detection of radiation pressure: P.N. Lebedev, Ann. Phys. (Leipzig) 6:433 (1901) E.F. Nichols and G.F. Hull, Phys. Rev. 13:307 (1901) Historical details are taken from these sources: "The genius of James Clerk Maxwell" by Keith J. Laidler in Phys 13 news of the University of Waterloo Department of Physics. "The Kind of Motion that we Call Heat" S.G. Brush North-Holland 1976 Other useful articles about the radiometer: "Crookes' Radiometer and Otheoscope" Norman Heckenberg, Bulletin of the Scientific Instrument Society, 50, 40--42 (1996) "Concerning the Action of the Crookes Radiometer" Gorden F. Hull, American J. Phys., 16, 185--186 (1948) "The Radiometer and How it Does Not Work" Arther E. Woodruff, The Physics Teacher 6, 358--363 (1968) General text books: "Light", R.W. Ditchburn, Blackie & Son (1954) "Kinetic Theory of Gases", Kennard, McGrawHill (1938) Acknowledgements Light mill image and animation by Torsten Hiddessen. Thanks to Norman Heckenberg and Bob Ehrlich for useful comments. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 14 00:03:49 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0E83a8h011223; Fri, 14 Jan 2005 00:03:36 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0E83Pu9011186; Fri, 14 Jan 2005 00:03:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 00:03:25 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 03:01:34 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: More on Crookes radiometer To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57351 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crookes_radiometer Crookes radiometer >From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. The Crookes radiometer was invented by the chemist Sir William Crookes as the by-product of some chemical research. In the course of very accurate quantitative chemical work, he was weighing samples in a partially evacuated chamber to reduce the effect of air currents, and noticed the weighings were disturbed when sunlight shone on the balance. Investigating this effect, he devised the device named after him, still manufactured and sold to this day as a curiosity item. The radiometer consists of a glass bulb, from which much of the air has been removed to form a partial vacuum. Inside the bulb, on a low friction spindle, are several (usually four) lightweight metal vanes. Each vane is polished on one side, and blackened on the other. In sunlight, or exposed to a source of infrared radiation (even the heat of a hand nearby can be enough), the vanes turn with no apparent motive power. Over the years, there have been many attempts to explain how a Crookes radiometer works: 1) Crookes incorrectly suggested that the force was due to the pressure of light. This theory was originally supported by James Clerk Maxwell who had predicted this force. This explanation is still often seen in leaflets packaged with the device. The first experiment to disprove this theory was done by Arthur Schuster in 1876, who observed that there was a force on the glass bulb of the Crookes radiometer that was in the opposite direction to the rotation of the vanes. This showed that the force turning the vanes was generated inside the radiometer. If light pressure was the cause of the rotation, then the better the vacuum in the bulb, the less air resistance to movement, and the faster the vanes should spin. In 1901, with a better vacuum pump, Pyotr Lebedev showed that in fact, the radiometer only works when there is low pressure gas in the bulb, and the vanes stay motionless in a `hard' vacuum. Finally, if light pressure were the motive force, the radiometer would spin in the opposite direction as the photons on the shiny side being reflected would deposit more momentum than on the black side where the photons are absorbed. The actual pressure exerted by light, though it exists, and can be measured with devices such as the Nichols radiometer, is far too small to move these vanes. 2) Another incorrect theory was that the heat on the dark side was causing the material to outgas, which pushed the radiometer around. This was effectively disproved by both Schuster's and Lebedev's experiments. 3) A partial explanation is that gas molecules hitting the warmer side of the vane will pick up some of the heat i.e. will bounce off the vane with increased speed. Giving the molecule this extra boost effectively means that a minute pressure is exerted on the vane. The imbalance of this effect between the warmer black side and the cooler silver side means the net pressure on the vane is equivalent to a push on the black side, and as a result the vanes spin round with the black side trailing. The problem with this idea is that the faster moving molecules produce more force, they also do a better job of stopping other molecules from reaching the vane, so the force on the vane should be exactly the same -- the greater temperature causes a decrease in density which results in the same force on both sides. Years after this explanation was dismissed, Albert Einstein showed that, because of the temperature difference at the edges, the two pressures do not cancel out exactly at the edges of the vanes. The force predicted by Einstein would be enough to move the vanes, but not fast enough. 4) The final piece of the puzzle, thermal transpiration, was theorized by Osborne Reynolds, but first published by James Clerk Maxwell in the last paper before his death in 1879. In addition to the temperature differential at the edges that Einstein considered, there is an additional factor due to how the gas interacts with the surface. Reynolds original work was on how a porous plate could be used to pump gas by heating one side and cooling the other. Reynolds found that the fast moving molecules could more easily move through a pore in a plate, or more easily move over a surface. Maxwell showed how this would cause an air current within a Crookes radiometer. On the black side, the slower moving molecules at the edges get caught in the microscopic bumps on the surface, while the faster moving molecules in the center can skip over the bumps. This causes a slight outward air flow, and creates a lower pressure in the center of the black face. Similarly on the white face, there is a slight inward air flow and a corresponding higher pressure. Both Einstein's and Reynolds' force appear to cause a Crookes radiometer to rotate, although it still isn't clear which one is stronger. [edit] References * Loeb, Leonard B. (1934) The Kinetic Theory Of Gases (2nd Edition);McGraw-Hill Book Company; pp 353-386 * Kennard, Earle H. (1938) Kinetic Theory of Gases; McGraw-Hill Book Company; pp 327-337 External links http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/General/LightMill/light-mill.html From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 14 02:26:31 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0EAQJ8h023482; Fri, 14 Jan 2005 02:26:19 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0EAQHrc023460; Fri, 14 Jan 2005 02:26:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 02:26:17 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050114102357.0069d7fc pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 10:23:57 +0000 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: serious chewing and eotvos Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57352 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 15:41 13/01/2005 -0500, Harry wrote: > All this flows from _your_ force analysis of orbital motion. I think it is a > mistaken analysis because it is based on an analogy between orbital motion > and a body in a centrifuge. A body orbits the earth because it is in > free fall. There is simply no outward force associated with that sort of > motion. The bottom line is mechanical systems do not accurately model > gravitational systems. I think I can see where our disagreement on this bit lies. You take the rather naive view that motion in a straight line (straight relative the frame of the "fixed" stars) is forceless. I don't. I view motion in a straight line in a way more in keeping with the modern science of Cybernetics and Information Theory. I see motion in a straight line as controlled by equal and opposite Beta-aether forces on the sides of a body. Any deviation from a straight line is counteracted by negative feedback from the Beta-aether. Taking this view, centrifugal forces are REAL forces. > However, for sake of argument, I will accept your force analysis of orbital > motion, but you still have a problem explaining why weight should not arise > because most bodies consist of protons and neutrons. Your explanation only > covers bodies composed of thing 1 and thing 2 particles. Yes, but "most bodies" also "consist" of atoms. And had we been having this discussion in the nineteenth century you would have been singing, that century's equivalent of - # There's antimony, arsenic, aluminum, selenium, And hydrogen and oxygen and nitrogen and rhenium, And nickel, neodymium, neptunium, germanium, And iron, americium, ruthenium, uranium, Europium, zirconium, lutetium, vanadium, And lanthanum and osmium and astatine and radium, And gold and protactinium and indium and gallium, And iodine and thorium and thulium and thallium. # # There's yttrium, ytterbium, actinium, rubidium, And boron, gadolinium, .........# .....and if someone had told you, "Ah, yes. But inside each of those allegedly indivisible \ atoms there is this teeny-weeny Thing 1 core which grabs virtually all the mass. And this teeny-weeny Thing 1 core is surrounded by a wispy Thing 2 cloud which grabs virtually all the space,"..... ,,,,you would have laughed him to scorn, and said. "Pull the other one. It's got bells on." And yet Thing 1 and Thing 2 have a Thingee Force which holds them together; and they can be put in an environment where the atom will suffer internal strain. ============================= amen dico vobis nisi conversi fueritis et efficiamini sicut parvuli non intrabitis in regnum caelorum ============================= Cheers Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 14 04:03:54 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0EC3iMc031608; Fri, 14 Jan 2005 04:03:44 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0EC3ga5031597; Fri, 14 Jan 2005 04:03:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 04:03:42 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=dRxU3pYWe3QvIit0hLx+sXHQdzlV00gexB/yoXZw6gVbcXJFIaanIffmtlENgA/F; Message-ID: <410-22005151411320110 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: More on Crookes radiometer Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 05:03:20 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94096c3038b0be5245219dcd0cee4db33ce350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.151 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57353 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Some numbers that suggest a different explanation of how it works, Harry. N/V number of molecules per cubic centimeters at optimum (0.1 Torr) pressure: 3.4e15. Collision mean free path of air molecules: 4.5 centimeters Average molecular speed (c) : 4.0e4 centimeters per second Number of molecules striking each cm^2 of vanes & globe wall per second : 0.25* c * N/V = 3.7e19 The photons absorbed by the blackened vane surface set it into vibration of greater amplitude than the shiny side, thus giving a kick of higher energy to the molecules striking it. This can be demonstrated with salt or sand sprinkled on a radio speaker laid horizontal while you're listening to rock "music". :-) The walls of the globe dissipate the heat from the agitated molecules, hence the radiometer is in effect a Carnot Engine. Coating the vanes with an alpha emitter (Americium) makes it a nuclear engine. Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

Some numbers that suggest a different explanation of how it works, Harry.
 
N/V number of molecules per cubic centimeters at optimum (0.1 Torr) pressure: 3.4e15.
 
Collision mean free path of air molecules: 4.5 centimeters
 
Average molecular speed (c) : 4.0e4 centimeters per second
 
Number of molecules striking each cm^2 of vanes & globe wall per second : 0.25* c * N/V = 3.7e19
 
The photons absorbed by the blackened vane surface set it into vibration of greater
amplitude than the shiny side, thus giving a kick of higher energy to the molecules striking it.
 
This can be demonstrated with salt or sand sprinkled on a radio speaker laid horizontal while you're
listening to rock "music".   :-)
 
 The walls of the globe dissipate the heat from the agitated molecules, hence the radiometer is in
effect a Carnot Engine.
 
Coating the vanes with an alpha emitter (Americium) makes it a nuclear engine.
 
Frederick
 
 
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 14 08:31:32 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0EGVRMc030140; Fri, 14 Jan 2005 08:31:27 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0EGVMvP030112; Fri, 14 Jan 2005 08:31:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 08:31:22 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=dnGH0hOIr+w4CtL9joSQLyuVMa2skG02IyHhSl/d8rHbFMPZ/azaQN/iAlMCZLrjRIhp9mMmjBJfq5obAC88Em+O6RxbzCxlyqIHOfbpCq0JD13ljPz8nOPLwgpOV2f+SL5uFihIls86RTiC/EHZuBNpf7uw9t9pPT3R2iQqeTg= ; Message-ID: <20050114162928.76419.qmail web54504.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 08:29:28 -0800 (PST) From: Merlyn Subject: Re: serious chewing and eotvos To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-169017821-1105720168=:69221" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57355 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-169017821-1105720168=:69221 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii A body undergoing a constant acceleration at 90 deg to its direction of travel will travel in a circle. Radius of the circular path is determined by a combination of the bodies velocity and the magnitude of the force. (Sorry Horace, I can't take the time to quantify all this with numbers at this time) Thus a body in orbit must have sufficient velocity to counteract the effects of gravity at that orbital radius. We call this free-fall because the body accelerates (falls) freely with gravity. Due to Newton's second law, the body in circular motion must exert an equal force upon the source of it's acceleration. In the case of a centrifuge, the body presses against the outside of the chamber. In the case of gravitational orbit, the mass of the body exerts a small gravitational pull upon the mass it is orbiting. The human body feels aceleration by means of the strain placed on its tissues by inertia. In freefall every cell is accelerating at the same rate, and so there is no strain, thus the body feels no weight. Weight is the force a body exerts on some supporting structure to counter the force of gravity. In free-fall there is no weight, because there is no need (nor mechanism) to counter the action of gravity upon the body. Orbit is the balance between gravity (acceleration) and velocity, not between 2 opposing forces. Harry Veeder wrote: All this flows from _your_ force analysis of orbital motion. I think it is a mistaken analysis because it is based on an analogy between orbital motion and a body in a centrifuge. A body orbits the earth because it is in free fall. There is simply no outward force associated with that sort of motion. The bottom line is mechanical systems do not accurately model gravitational systems. Harry Merlyn Magickal Engineer and Technical Metaphysicist __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --0-169017821-1105720168=:69221 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
A body undergoing a constant acceleration at 90 deg to its direction of travel will travel in a circle.  Radius of the circular path is determined by a combination of the bodies velocity and the magnitude of the force. (Sorry Horace, I can't take the time to quantify all this with numbers at this time)  Thus a body in orbit must have sufficient velocity to counteract the effects of gravity at that orbital radius.  We call this free-fall because the body accelerates (falls) freely with gravity.
Due to Newton's second law, the body in circular motion must exert an equal force upon the source of it's acceleration.  In the case of a centrifuge, the body presses against the outside of the chamber.  In the case of gravitational orbit, the mass of the body exerts a small gravitational pull upon the mass it is orbiting.
 
The human body feels aceleration by means of the strain placed on its tissues by inertia.  In freefall every cell is accelerating at the same rate, and so there is no strain, thus the body feels no weight.
 
Weight is the force a body exerts on some supporting structure to counter the force of gravity.
In free-fall there is no weight, because there is no need (nor mechanism) to counter the action of gravity upon the body.
 
Orbit is the balance between gravity (acceleration) and velocity, not between 2 opposing forces.

Harry Veeder <eo200 freenet.carleton.ca> wrote:

<snip>

All this flows from _your_ force analysis of orbital motion. I think it is a
mistaken analysis because it is based on an analogy between orbital motion
and a body in a centrifuge. A body orbits the earth because it is in
free fall. There is simply no outward force associated with that sort of
motion. The bottom line is mechanical systems do not accurately model
gravitational systems.

<snip>
Harry



Merlyn
Magickal Engineer and Technical Metaphysicist

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com --0-169017821-1105720168=:69221-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 14 08:48:02 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0EGlp8h029301; Fri, 14 Jan 2005 08:47:51 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0EGlmhX029255; Fri, 14 Jan 2005 08:47:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 08:47:48 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=TKnAxZpL/te1LfROcKWdleWAJF0oyfO/gknzCH6owG85y3cdsFnlWCLC0DCzfBQE; Message-ID: <410-220051514154738870 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Ancient Alchemy Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 09:47:38 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940c8d942beb594d001340c5a6ee510962b350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.113 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57356 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII FWIW: Ammonium Chloride (Sal Ammoniac) "Workers at the Temple of Ammon in ancient Egypt combined camel dung and urine collected on the temple grounds, and used it for cleaning clothes. The origin of that recipe is unclear. But the Romans called this substance sal ammoniac, the salt of Ammon. A gas, first extracted from the salt in 1782, was called ammonia." Actually (according to an old Britannica) they mixed the dung and urine with salt (NaCl) and heated it over a fire: 2 NaCl + Urea (NH2-CO-NH2) + 2 H2O ---> Na2CO3 + 2 NH4Cl (Sal Ammoniac) Most likely the gold color of the camel urine inspired them to see if they could make gold from it. Na2CO3 is washing soda. Sal Ammoniac (looks like soap) sublimes at about 340 C is used to clean soldering-iron tips. Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

FWIW: Ammonium Chloride (Sal Ammoniac)

"Workers at the Temple of Ammon in ancient Egypt combined camel dung and urine collected on the temple grounds, and used it for cleaning clothes. The origin of that recipe is unclear. But the Romans called this substance sal ammoniac, the salt of Ammon. A gas, first extracted from the salt in 1782, was called ammonia."

Actually (according to an old Britannica) they mixed the dung and urine with salt (NaCl) and

heated it over a fire: 2 NaCl + Urea (NH2-CO-NH2) + 2 H2O ---> Na2CO3 + 2 NH4Cl (Sal Ammoniac)

Most likely the gold color of the camel urine inspired them to see if they could make gold from it.

Na2CO3 is washing soda. Sal Ammoniac (looks like soap) sublimes at about 340 C is used to

clean soldering-iron tips.

Frederick

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 14 09:05:35 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0EH5Q8h002532; Fri, 14 Jan 2005 09:05:26 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0EH5Pjn002509; Fri, 14 Jan 2005 09:05:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 09:05:25 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <004c01c4fa5a$9849f1c0$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: Subject: Finally, a real FC vehicle? Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 09:00:47 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0049_01C4FA17.89C99DA0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57357 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0049_01C4FA17.89C99DA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It is about time for an ecologically sound transportation vehicle to hit = the market in mass production. The Prius was a giant step, but even at = 50+ mpg it still burns way too much gasoline for some eco-conscious = consumer/commuters (yes, although a distinct minority, there are a few = out there, even in the culture of super-size-it, SUV-loving, = multi-polluting, cell-phone-bonded, natural-resource guzzlers.) This slick 2-wheeler is coming out soon - not in 2005, unfortunately -=20 but they claim to be tooling up the factory now (have we heard that = before?): http://msnbc.msn.com/id/6414390/ there are many other sites with more detail. http://www.vectrixusa.com/ The good news: 1) They are tooling up for a 2006 introduction 2) It is not a cheesy slapped-together kludge 3) It is well-thought out and looks great 4) 150 mile range 5) plenty of speed 6) Longer battery life - Deep discharge cycles minimized by the fuel = cell "trickle" 7) emission free (except for the remote power plant supplying the grid) The "not clear" news (potentially bad) 1) the fuel cell is the Protonex NGen 500 watt fuel cell system with = Vectrix's high performance battery-powered electric maxi-scooter. The = fuel cell is said to double the range of the scooter. But 500 watts ??? = That is not much more than a human can deliver by peddling and this = vehicle is comparatively heavy. Is there a huge advantage over an = improved electric bike (Wavecrest, etc) ?=20 2) projected cost is high; will probably be $10 k when delivered 3) Where are you going to refuel with H2? The bad news 1) Not all-weather 2) Should be a methanol FC (or have a reformer) instead of H2 for = flexibility 3) Cost 4) Cost 5) Cost The fuel cell / electric hybrid configuration does provide synergy by = using the best aspects of the individual technologies. The battery pack = provides most of the power while the fuel cell provides a continuous = "trickle charge" to keep the batteries "topped-off", greatly extending = the range of the scooter (and battery life). The fuel cell shuts down = automatically when the battery pack is charged and operates at only its = optimum efficiency. Fuel cells are not nearly as efficient when stressed = to the max. When you stop at a traffic light the batteries keep getting = charged, etc. There is also regeneration from braking. All-in-all, the most apt summation that one can provide for this product = is *long overdue* but... ... from the perspective of someone who would like have the option of = pedaling...after all, if it is going to be used in good weather only, = why not pedal when you get the urge?... it would be great to see a = souped up combination of the Wavecrest or other nicely designed electric = bicycle with this: http://tinyurl.com/44mpz which looks a little kludgey. Although Keith may be partially correct that most Americans do not give = a damn about energy efficiency or ecology, as long as they can afford = the cost of polluting, I think that is an overstatement. Perhaps 10 to = 20 percent of all commuters, maybe more, do care. Many are even = activists- if you don't believe that, try driving in SF on the = designated bike days - even the cabs go nowhere.=20 This all is indicative of a neglected market worth pursuing, as the = success of the Prius has stunned Detroit. (some would say the success is = modest, but it is the *trend* which is important - with 6 month waiting = lists in Cal, it is said to be the only such auto with a "real" waiting = list since the Miyata). ...but if the transportation option you propose to introduce is going to = be basically a "fair weather" option, then it cannot cost $10 K, because = it will never be suitable for the only vehicle which one must own. = Almost every younger "aware" person that you hear expressing opinions in = new groups, seems to agree that they would spend a few thousand for a = fair-weather transportation, hybrid-battery option (with a fuel-cell for = extended mileage), battery power for hills, ALSO self-powered capability = - but ... if there is no H2 readily available for convenient refills, = then it MUST be a methanol or other liquid fuel option. These Vetrix = guys must have missed 'Marketing 101'. BTW this company PalCan just opened a new plant in China, so don't be = surprised to see a Canadian designed, Chinese built triple-hybrid = bicycle (battery, methanol fuel-cell, human power). This might be the first real test in the transportation marketplace to = see how adept and quick the Chinese are at identifying markets, and = getting there the "first-est with the most-est"... What nation on earth = needs this kind of product more than China - for their own people? Jones ------=_NextPart_000_0049_01C4FA17.89C99DA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
It is about time for an ecologically sound transportation vehicle = to hit=20 the market in mass production. The Prius was a giant step, but even at = 50+ mpg=20 it still burns way too much gasoline for some eco-conscious = consumer/commuters=20 (yes, although a distinct minority, there are a few out there, even in = the=20 culture of super-size-it, SUV-loving, = multi-polluting, cell-phone-bonded,=20 natural-resource guzzlers.)
 
This slick 2-wheeler is coming out soon - not in 2005,=20 unfortunately - 
but they claim to be tooling up the factory now (have we heard that = before?):
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/6414390= /
 
there are many other sites with more detail.
 
The good news:
 
1) They are tooling up for a 2006 introduction
2) It is not a cheesy slapped-together kludge
3) It is well-thought out and looks great
4) 150 mile range
5) plenty of speed
6) Longer battery life - Deep discharge cycles minimized by the = fuel cell=20 "trickle"
7) emission free (except for the remote power plant supplying the=20 grid)
 
The "not clear" news (potentially bad)
 
1) the fuel cell is  the Protonex NGen 500 watt fuel cell = system with=20 Vectrix's high performance battery-powered electric maxi-scooter. The = fuel cell=20 is said to double the range of the scooter. But 500 watts ??? That = is not=20 much more than a human can deliver by peddling and this vehicle is=20 comparatively heavy. Is there a huge advantage over an improved electric = bike=20 (Wavecrest, etc) ? 
2) projected cost is high; will probably be $10 k when = delivered
3) Where are you going to refuel with H2?
 
The bad news
1) Not all-weather
2) Should be a methanol FC (or have a reformer) instead of H2 for=20 flexibility
3) Cost
4) Cost
5) Cost
 
The fuel cell / electric hybrid configuration does provide synergy = by using=20 the best aspects of the individual technologies. The battery pack = provides most=20 of the power while the fuel cell provides a continuous "trickle charge" = to keep=20 the batteries "topped-off", greatly extending the range of the scooter = (and=20 battery life). The fuel cell shuts down automatically when the battery = pack is=20 charged and operates at only its optimum efficiency. Fuel cells are not = nearly=20 as efficient when stressed to the max. When you stop at a traffic light = the=20 batteries keep getting charged, etc. There is also regeneration from=20 braking.

All-in-all, the most apt summation that one can provide for = this=20 product is *long overdue* but...
 
... from the perspective of someone who would like have the = option of=20 pedaling...after all, if it is going to be used in good weather = only, why=20 not pedal when you get the urge?... it would be great to see a = souped=20 up combination of the Wavecrest or other nicely designed electric = bicycle with=20 this:
http://tinyurl.com/44mpz=
which looks a little kludgey.
 
Although Keith may be partially correct that most Americans do not = give a=20 damn about energy efficiency or ecology, as long as they can afford the = cost of=20 polluting, I think that is an overstatement. Perhaps 10 to 20 = percent of=20 all commuters, maybe more, do care. Many are even activists- if you = don't=20 believe that, try driving in SF on the designated bike days - even = the cabs=20 go nowhere.
 
This all is indicative of a neglected market worth pursuing, as the = success=20 of the Prius has stunned Detroit. (some would say the success is modest, = but it=20 is the *trend* which is important - with 6 month waiting lists in Cal,=20 it is said to be the only such auto with a "real" waiting list = since=20 the Miyata).
 
...but if the transportation option you propose to introduce = is going=20 to be basically a "fair weather" option, then it cannot cost $10 K, = because it=20 will never be suitable for the only vehicle which one must = own. Almost=20 every younger "aware" person that you hear expressing opinions in new = groups,=20 seems to agree that they would spend a few thousand for a fair-weather=20 transportation, hybrid-battery option (with a fuel-cell for extended = mileage),=20 battery power for hills, ALSO self-powered capability - but ... if there = is no=20 H2 readily available for convenient refills, then it MUST be a methanol = or other=20 liquid fuel option. These Vetrix guys must have missed 'Marketing = 101'.
 
BTW this company PalCan just opened a new plant in China, so don't = be=20 surprised to see a Canadian designed, Chinese built triple-hybrid = bicycle=20 (battery, methanol fuel-cell, human power).
 
This might be the first real test in the transportation marketplace = to see=20 how adept and quick the Chinese are at identifying markets, and getting = there=20 the "first-est with the most-est"... What nation on earth needs this = kind of=20 product more than China - for their own people?
 
Jones
------=_NextPart_000_0049_01C4FA17.89C99DA0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 14 09:16:28 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0EHGJ8h006290; Fri, 14 Jan 2005 09:16:19 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0EHGIEA006267; Fri, 14 Jan 2005 09:16:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 09:16:18 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 11:16:53 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Water and the ZPE Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: <-WFl1D.A.xhB.h5_5BB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57358 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I've been researching water. One of things that I've found is called water structuring. It effects the water in both it's liquid and solid state. If any of you Vortexians believe that this might be useful to tapping the ZPE, I will be happy to share this information with you. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 14 09:40:37 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0EHeL8h014724; Fri, 14 Jan 2005 09:40:21 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0EHeKjY014712; Fri, 14 Jan 2005 09:40:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 09:40:20 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 11:40:57 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: thoughts on Scalar Waves Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: <9ct78C.A.ylD.DQA6BB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57359 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: The Baron's posts on the Tesla scalar waves reminds me of two discussions that I've had with physicists. Both of them talked about adding another dimension to the EMF wave, in this case a laser beam, by the addition of a component based on speech. As I understand it, speech or sound, is the compression and rarification of the air. If this phenomena were transferred to a laser beam, it would seem to me that the compression would produce an area of higher frequency, and the rarification would produce an area of lower frequency. It would seem to me that this is frequency modulation. Meryl has a kit for sale which allows, as I recall, the researcher to produce and detect these waves. He told me, about a year ago, that there was no useful application for his research. As far as applications like computer chips, I have heard that a group is producing a chip which utilizes beams of light to do the computing. I assume that this involves using the photons like electrons. AFAIF, the idea of there being a new computing system based on these waves, or their ability to interface the brain to a computer, are more of the Baron's tin hat ravings. I was watching the PBS show on information transfer. It starts with a relay of men on mountains with torches, and ends with fiber optic cables. How is the information relayed on the beam, frequency modulation or amplitude modulation? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 14 09:40:38 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0EHeU8h014809; Fri, 14 Jan 2005 09:40:30 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0EHeRe1014786; Fri, 14 Jan 2005 09:40:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 09:40:27 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <006101c4fa5f$7da32ee0$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <004c01c4fa5a$9849f1c0$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> Subject: Re: Finally, a real FC vehicle? Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 09:35:50 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57360 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Opps forgot the URL for the FC bike to be made in China http://www.fuelcellmarkets.com/article_default_view.fcm?articleid=3219&subsite=1723 Combine that with Vetrix...? BTW, one sees this "unfulfilled-potential" in so many other products. The iPod for instance, which is a huge craze... so they do not need the help, but for potential competetors... ...why not combine the iPod with a Wi-Fi PDA, cell phone, and digital camera? Yeah. I know HP has already announced something close to this. I hope it is not vaporware and that they know 'Marketing 101' better than Vetrix. Willy Loman From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 14 11:04:32 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0EJ4QMc001794; Fri, 14 Jan 2005 11:04:26 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0EJ4OQH001780; Fri, 14 Jan 2005 11:04:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 11:04:24 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 10:12:53 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Vehicles need to be insulated Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57361 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: A lot of attention has been given to fuel economy for travel. However, the power requirements of vehicle cooling and heating then begin to loom large, and are as yet woefully unaddressed. Cooling may be a luxury, but people in hot climates demand it. Heating on the other hand, is a matter of health and safety here in Alaska. It is often difficult just to keep the ice off the windshield here, both the interior and exterior. Driving to Fairbanks in winter I have encountered temperatures near -40 deg. F. A 32 mpg vehicle (Ford Contour) just does not put out enough heat to make that safe and comfortable. People here are not likely to go for an electric vehicle without adequate heat. It is not fuel efficient to have to let a vehicle warm up for 15 or 20 miuntes in order to be able to scrape the ice off the windows. The only way to combat the heating and cooling problem is insulation, which is poor to non-existent in most cars. Good thermal insulation also has the advantage of reducing road noise as well. With good design, it could improve crash worthiness as well. A twin pane windshield, and windows for that matter, with a plastic inner pane, could provide a vapor free window interior with local active heating. This would help keep reduce that nasty wind-in-the-face effect from the windshield defrosting fan - which is so annoying to some people, especially contact wearers. It would also reduce the energy required to maintain visibility. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 14 12:12:43 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0EKCV8h025787; Fri, 14 Jan 2005 12:12:31 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0EKCTFj025762; Fri, 14 Jan 2005 12:12:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 12:12:29 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Mark S Bilk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: thoughts on Scalar Waves Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 12:04:37 -0800 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.28] Content-Type: text/plain MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <0501141212170C.12008 isis> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <2PXIlB.A.YSG.seC6BB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57362 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In-Reply-To: Organization: http://www.cosmicpenguin.com/911 On Fri, Jan 14, 2005 at 11:40:57AM -0600, thomas malloy wrote: >The Baron's posts on the Tesla scalar waves reminds me of two >discussions that I've had with physicists. ... I've been wanting to ask on Vortex about "scalar waves", but didn't want to be seen as a curmudgeonly skeptic nor as making any personal attacks. But now that the subject has been broached... "Scalar waves" are said to be based on phenomena related to an omitted scalar term in Maxwell's equations, or on some strange effects produced by Tesla's experiments. And Tom Bearden received a patent on a relatively simple electronic circuit ("MEG") incorporating a weird transformer which he says produces about 50 watts of electric power out of thin air indefinitely; he says that it works by means of "scalar" something-or-other and/or ZPE. Regarding the Maxwell/Tesla concept, "scalar" fans are claiming that their "waves" already exist and have done all kinds of things -- send messages over great distances instantaneously, reduce the World Trade Center Towers' concrete and steel to powder in a flash, trigger the recent earthquake/tsunami in Indonesia -- in fact, do just about anything not understood by these folks, who appear to have little knowledge of physics. If any of this were true, it seems to me that it should be possible to construct some little bench-top apparatus that would create some kind of strange effect not explainable by conventional physics. After all, electrical/ electronic technology has come a long way since Maxwell, and even since Tesla. But I've never heard of any such apparatus that's been duplicated by a number of people and found to work. As to Bearden, it looks like the circuit shown in his patent could be built for about fifty bucks, and sold for a thousand or more to many thousands of scientists, engineers, professors, science fiction fans, etc., all around the world. Imagine having a little metal box on your desk with a 50-watt bulb sticking out of it that stayed lit for days, months, and years without any external power input. Bearden could be a multimillionaire in a year or so, but instead makes money by selling his books and CDs. And I think I read recently that he's asking for some $60 million so he can "go commercial". Hell, give me a working model of it and I'll buy the parts myself and assemble the damn things in my kitchen. But checking back a year on the "MEG Builders" mailing list doesn't show anyone reporting success in generating free energy: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MEG_builders/messages Bearden was also quoted recently, in an article about "scalar waves" triggering the earthquake, as saying that the waves could go through the earth without any attenuation, because they don't travel through space, they travel through the "time domain, which is everywhere". Now if "time domain" means the same thing to him as it does to engineers who talk about analyzing signals in the time domain or the frequency domain, Bearden's statement makes as much sense as saying that "scalar waves" travel by means of the alphabet, or the metric system. Based on all the above data, I've formed the opinion that "scalar waves" are completely bogus, and that Bearden is a charlatan leading a cult of gullible believers who circularly cite each other's web pages as "proof". But I'd love to be shown wrong. The world certainly needs new sources of energy, before the ultra-wealthy thugs who've taken control slaughter millions more people in order to get hold of the remaining oil supply; which may kill almost all life on Earth if it's burned: http://www.monbiot.com/archives/2003/07/01/shadow-of-extinction/ There, I've gone and done it. Oh well, I can always resubscribe under a fake name... Mark From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 14 12:18:33 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0EKIO8h027351; Fri, 14 Jan 2005 12:18:24 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0EKINkS027337; Fri, 14 Jan 2005 12:18:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 12:18:23 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050114201816.00ad63f8 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 20:18:16 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: serious chewing and eotvos Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57363 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 08:29 AM 1/14/2005 -0800, you wrote: >A body undergoing a constant acceleration at 90 deg to its direction of travel will travel in a circle. Radius of the circular path is determined by a combination of the bodies velocity and the magnitude of the force. (Sorry Horace, I can't take the time to quantify all this with numbers at this time) Thus a body in orbit must have sufficient velocity to counteract the effects of gravity at that orbital radius. We call this free-fall because the body accelerates (falls) freely with gravity. > >Due to Newton's second law, the body in circular motion must exert an equal force upon the source of it's acceleration. In the case of a centrifuge, the body presses against the outside of the chamber. In the case of gravitational orbit, the mass of the body exerts a small gravitational pull upon the mass it is orbiting. > >The human body feels aceleration by means of the strain placed on its tissues by inertia. In freefall every cell is accelerating at the same rate, and so there is no strain, thus the body feels no weight. > >Weight is the force a body exerts on some supporting structure to counter the force of gravity. >In free-fall there is no weight, because there is no need (nor mechanism) to counter the action of gravity upon the body. > >Orbit is the balance between gravity (acceleration) and velocity, not between 2 opposing forces. > >Harry Veeder wrote: > > > >All this flows from _your_ force analysis of orbital motion. I think it is a >mistaken analysis because it is based on an analogy between orbital motion >and a body in a centrifuge. A body orbits the earth because it is in >free fall. There is simply no outward force associated with that sort of >motion. The bottom line is mechanical systems do not accurately model >gravitational systems. > > > >Harry Dr Johnson was walking down a narrow lane one day. Houses on either side were of the old fashioned type with upper stories projecting almost half way across the street. >From opposite upper story windows two women were leaning out and having a violent argument. Dr Johnson paused for a moment and contemplated the scene before him. Turning to his companion he observed. "Those women will never agree. They are arguing from different premises." ;-) Cheers Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 14 12:46:04 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0EKjxMc026149; Fri, 14 Jan 2005 12:45:59 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0EKjuPS026134; Fri, 14 Jan 2005 12:45:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 12:45:56 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <003401c4fa79$6882b5c0$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" References: <004c01c4fa5a$9849f1c0$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> <006101c4fa5f$7da32ee0$d0bcfea9@jonesb9pacbell> Subject: Battery synergy Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 12:41:21 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: <0OJBK.A.OYG.E-C6BB ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57364 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The Vectrix hybrid of battery and Fuel-cell, and the possible synergy of the two, brings up interesting connections alluded to in past posts. We all know some of the infamous lore of the "battery boosters" (double entendre intended) - those like Newman, Bedini, Tilley, etc.etc. who claim to use circuitry to boost the life and/or output of batteries beyond all expectations... or else they claim it is the circuitry which is OU but only works with batteries and not caps! Hey, knowledge is limited but stupidity is infinite, as they say. I bring these old efforts up (a little too often perhaps) but the farther back one can look, the farther forward one is likely to see, a wise many once said. I'm pretty sure they all stumbled on some grain of truth, but what is the common denominator that points to the identity of that truth? Despite lack of clear proof of real long term benefit to these battery schemes, there are more and more inventors and companies coming onto the battery boosting scene (more sophisticated than the gangstas we hear about in South Central), and some of it is even beginning to look legitimate: http://www.pulsepower.com/technica.htm Mark Goldes recounted his experience with Newman, and then with the Ray-O-Vac engineers, to vortex some time ago. Very often these inventors are manipulating the *known* battery chemistry, and the benefits which accrue are real, but either temporary, risky, or destructive of the battery. Moreover, most of this manipulation is said to fall within a "normal" range of battery behavior. After all, it was not published before, because it is NOT in the best interest of the battery manufacturer to provide information on greatly extending battery life if there is any risk at all - as it counter-productive to their effort to sell more batteries (to be a bit cynical). Surface chemistry on the battery plates, esp. with sulfur and oxygen compounds and the re-absorption of sulfate crystals or replating of the active material on the positive plate, are all issues which addressed by using pulsed power, or back EMF. But there could be more to the story, and it is not impossible that in some cases where hydrogen containing electrolytes are involved (lead acid & NiMH), OU can "arguably" derive from the electrochemistry of the hydrogen atom, just as in the case of LENR, the hydrino, and even the Langmuir torch phenomena. Then, there is this question of "radiant energy". Is that a crock - or is it real? Then, there is the seldom discussed issue of complementary charge carriers. The Bat/Cap has been mentioned before, and its surprising characteristics, but it doesn't appear that anyone has gone to the trouble to actually see if batteries, which have ionic charge carriers, and capacitors and/or large coils (Newman) which have electron charge carriers, offer any synergy when used together to power identical loads. That is just a simple side-by-side test, which should be adequate, but there is scant good information on this. The Vectrix example of a 500 watt FC being able to double the range of a large battery pack over the 'battery only 'unit offers another tantalizing suggestion. There are at least four variables which are possible to manipulate though merely taking the time to provide exhaustive *testing* in order to find the best combination 1) Pulsing vs DC (in either the charging or the discharging cycle, or both) 2) Manipulating the various combinations of device which use all three types of charge carriers: electrons, positive ions and negative ions. 3) Adding a "radiant" source or device: arc or glow discharge, radioactive emitter or other photon source. There are old reports of microwatt radiation providing kilowatt battery boosting. Once again, here are questions which are unsolved and potentially valid, but will receive no "official" funding for the needed Edisonian approach, and that is largely because of the notoriety (and dishonesty) of some of the prior personalities in the field. I am just thankful that one particular voice of unreason is now absent from this forum... as otherwise I would be surely well-souffled over these comments from an expert in the field of battery manipulation. Jones "An expert is a man who has made all the mistakes that can possibly be made in a very narrow field" --Neils Bohr From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 14 13:31:11 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0ELV3Mc005831; Fri, 14 Jan 2005 13:31:03 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0ELV1EF005810; Fri, 14 Jan 2005 13:31:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 13:31:01 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <410-2200515142130480 ix.netcom.com> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: aki ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.1.47.0 (Windows) From: "Akira Kawasaki" To: "vortex-l" Subject: FW: WHAT'S NEW Friday, January 14, 2005 Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 13:30:48 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: c4cc7f5f697e8746f66dc3a06d5924d858c476708125cb267e4ad6be560c63a93122699149cfe979350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.232.9.198 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57365 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > [Original Message] > From: What's New > To: Akira Kawasaki Date: 1/14/2005 10:20:32 AM Subject: WHAT'S NEW Friday, January 14, 2005 WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 14 Dec 05 Washington, DC 1. EARTHQUACKS: THE DEEPER MEANING OF THE TSUNAMI IS EXAMINED. Religions are busy explaining how we should view a disaster that claimed more than 150,000 innocent lives. "Innocent"? Buddhists explained that seemingly innocent victims could be paying for some really bad stuff they did in previous lives. A leading Moslem cleric in Southern California says it was, "a test from God to see how human beings respond." Columnist and pretentious theologian William Safire also saw the tsunami as a test, and compared it to God's test of Job. Sure Job is faithful, Satan had scoffed, God made him rich and powerful. Wagering that Job would remain faithful, God lets Satan take it all away: Job's sheep are stolen, his servants slain and a great wind kills his children. Whereupon Job falls to the ground and worships God, "the Lord gave and the Lord hath taken away." So Job passes the test. Never mind his sons and daughters who died, or his servants who were murdered, it's all about Job. Well, thank God for physics. The tsunami was caused by the release of elastic energy in a tectonic earthquake. 2. MISSILE DEFENSE: A "MINOR SOFTWARE GLITCH" CAUSED THE FAILURE. Testing is the theme of WN this week. The last interceptor never got out the silo http://www.aps.org/WN/WN04/wn121704.cfm, but the head of the Missile Defense Agency said the system "would work" if nothing went wrong. That sounds right to me. They'll try again in February, but there seems to be no urgency. Defense Secretary Rumsfeld delayed a decision to start the system, citing absence of any long-range missile threat. The threat seemed far more imminent when the administration was seeking congressional approval for the missile defense system http://www.aps.org/WN/WN03/wn032103.cfm. 3. CREATIONISM: COURT ORDERS WARNING STICKERS REMOVED IMMEDIATELY. The constitutionality of a creationist message got a court test. You will recall that in Cobb County, GA, stickers were placed on high school biology texts warning that evolution is "a theory, not a fact" http://www.aps.org/WN/WN04/wn111204.cfm. Yesterday, in ordering the stickers removed, a federal judge said "the stickers convey an impermissible message of endorsement." 4. ALTERNATIVE MEDICINE: IOM REPORT CALLS FOR TOUGHER STANDARDS. For a decade, WN has argued that the 1994 Dietary Supplement and Health Education Act is one of the worst pieces of legislation ever enacted http://www.aps.org/WN/WN98/wn091898.cfm . This week, an Institute of Medicine report, Complementary and Alternative Medicine in the United States, called for major revision of DSHEA. It went much further, recommending that the same principles and standards of evidence apply to all medical treatments whether labeled as alternative or conventional. THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND. Opinions are the author's and not necessarily shared by the University of Maryland, but they should be. --- Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.aps.org/WN To subscribe, send a blank e-mail to: From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 14 15:04:00 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0EN3riw024826; Fri, 14 Jan 2005 15:03:53 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0EN3ola024807; Fri, 14 Jan 2005 15:03:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 15:03:50 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "John Steck" To: Subject: RE: Finally, a real FC vehicle? Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 17:03:51 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000C_01C4FA5B.056B9100" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 In-Reply-To: <004c01c4fa5a$9849f1c0$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57366 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C4FA5B.056B9100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Respectfully, I think you are caught up in surface thinking... Unfortunately the "all-electric" economy is no better than an ICE economy. That is the dirty little secret all the greenies are content to turn a blind eye to. Until we start tapping less polluting sources of electric generation for the grid we are all just fooling ourselves. The end-to-end cleanest transportation technology available today is high efficiency hybrid ICE/electric systems.... now if those 30% efficient solar cells someone here posted about a couple days ago are real and mass producible we may have a new winning combo. That's just looking at the electric side... what do we do with all those toxic dead batteries that will generated as they are regularly replaced??? It's like the paper recycling lie... reprocessing paper generates a tremendous amount of unnecessary toxic water and air pollution. It would be far "greener" if someone used it as feed stock for a biomass plant instead... Same kind of lie as the polystyrene big-mac containers... EPS can be recycled/reused, the film coated corrugated packaging they switched to is not. http://www.chemistry.wustl.edu/~edudev/LabTutorials/AirQuality/AirQuality.ht ml " Batteries in all-electric vehicles must be externally recharged. (Hybrid gasoline/electric vehicles continuously recharge the batteries during normal operation of the vehicle. Although hybrid vehicles are not ZEVs, they are an extremely efficient use of gasoline-derived energy.) Usually lead-acid batteries in electric vehicles are connected to a charger that plugs into an ordinary source of 110-V electricity. A complete analysis of how "clean" an electric vehicle is would have to take into account the emissions produced by electric companies to generate the electricity used in recharging. As discussed above, emissions from electricity production depend on the method used to generate electricity and vary from one region of the country to another. In parts of the midwest where high-nitrogen-content fuel is burned to generate electricity (see Box 2), the benefits of electric vehicles are debatable." http://www.environmentaldefense.org/pressrelease.cfm?ContentID=1181 "Electricity production has enormous local and global effects on the environment and human health. The burning of fossil fuels to produce electricity is the nation's largest source of air pollution. Power plant emissions contribute to respiratory illnesses, such as asthma, bronchitis, emphysema and cancer. The air pollutants also are a major factor in the destruction of forests and lakes due to acid rain. And fossil fuel combustion is the principal source of greenhouse gases that are the cause of global climate change. Generating electricity with nuclear power produces radioactive waste that must be isolated from the environment for tens of thousands of years." http://www.mrsharkey.com/charging2.htm "At present, for the vast majority of the country, neither electric vehicles or comparable gasoline-powered vehicles holds a solid advantage over the other in cleanliness. This balance will probably not change any time in the near future as the problem with electric vehicles is not inherent to them, but rather to the means by which we generate our electricity. Although electric vehicles offer some compelling advantages over internal combustion engine vehicles in terms of pollution management, the real advantage of electric vehicles lies in the future when more electricity is produced from cleaner sources." -john -----Original Message----- From: Jones Beene [mailto:jonesb9 pacbell.net] Sent: Friday, January 14, 2005 11:01 AM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Finally, a real FC vehicle? It is about time for an ecologically sound transportation vehicle to hit the market in mass production. The Prius was a giant step, but even at 50+ mpg it still burns way too much gasoline for some eco-conscious consumer/commuters (yes, although a distinct minority, there are a few out there, even in the culture of super-size-it, SUV-loving, multi-polluting, cell-phone-bonded, natural-resource guzzlers.) This slick 2-wheeler is coming out soon - not in 2005, unfortunately - but they claim to be tooling up the factory now (have we heard that before?): http://msnbc.msn.com/id/6414390/ there are many other sites with more detail. http://www.vectrixusa.com/ The good news: 1) They are tooling up for a 2006 introduction 2) It is not a cheesy slapped-together kludge 3) It is well-thought out and looks great 4) 150 mile range 5) plenty of speed 6) Longer battery life - Deep discharge cycles minimized by the fuel cell "trickle" 7) emission free (except for the remote power plant supplying the grid) The "not clear" news (potentially bad) 1) the fuel cell is the Protonex NGen 500 watt fuel cell system with Vectrix's high performance battery-powered electric maxi-scooter. The fuel cell is said to double the range of the scooter. But 500 watts ??? That is not much more than a human can deliver by peddling and this vehicle is comparatively heavy. Is there a huge advantage over an improved electric bike (Wavecrest, etc) ? 2) projected cost is high; will probably be $10 k when delivered 3) Where are you going to refuel with H2? The bad news 1) Not all-weather 2) Should be a methanol FC (or have a reformer) instead of H2 for flexibility 3) Cost 4) Cost 5) Cost The fuel cell / electric hybrid configuration does provide synergy by using the best aspects of the individual technologies. The battery pack provides most of the power while the fuel cell provides a continuous "trickle charge" to keep the batteries "topped-off", greatly extending the range of the scooter (and battery life). The fuel cell shuts down automatically when the battery pack is charged and operates at only its optimum efficiency. Fuel cells are not nearly as efficient when stressed to the max. When you stop at a traffic light the batteries keep getting charged, etc. There is also regeneration from braking. All-in-all, the most apt summation that one can provide for this product is *long overdue* but... ... from the perspective of someone who would like have the option of pedaling...after all, if it is going to be used in good weather only, why not pedal when you get the urge?... it would be great to see a souped up combination of the Wavecrest or other nicely designed electric bicycle with this: http://tinyurl.com/44mpz which looks a little kludgey. Although Keith may be partially correct that most Americans do not give a damn about energy efficiency or ecology, as long as they can afford the cost of polluting, I think that is an overstatement. Perhaps 10 to 20 percent of all commuters, maybe more, do care. Many are even activists- if you don't believe that, try driving in SF on the designated bike days - even the cabs go nowhere. This all is indicative of a neglected market worth pursuing, as the success of the Prius has stunned Detroit. (some would say the success is modest, but it is the *trend* which is important - with 6 month waiting lists in Cal, it is said to be the only such auto with a "real" waiting list since the Miyata). ...but if the transportation option you propose to introduce is going to be basically a "fair weather" option, then it cannot cost $10 K, because it will never be suitable for the only vehicle which one must own. Almost every younger "aware" person that you hear expressing opinions in new groups, seems to agree that they would spend a few thousand for a fair-weather transportation, hybrid-battery option (with a fuel-cell for extended mileage), battery power for hills, ALSO self-powered capability - but ... if there is no H2 readily available for convenient refills, then it MUST be a methanol or other liquid fuel option. These Vetrix guys must have missed 'Marketing 101'. BTW this company PalCan just opened a new plant in China, so don't be surprised to see a Canadian designed, Chinese built triple-hybrid bicycle (battery, methanol fuel-cell, human power). This might be the first real test in the transportation marketplace to see how adept and quick the Chinese are at identifying markets, and getting there the "first-est with the most-est"... What nation on earth needs this kind of product more than China - for their own people? Jones ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C4FA5B.056B9100 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Respectfully, I=20 think you are caught up in surface thinking...
 
Unfortunately=20 the "all-electric" economy is no better than an ICE = economy. =20 That is the dirty little secret all the greenies are content to turn a = blind eye=20 to.  Until we start tapping less polluting sources of electric = generation=20 for the grid we are all just fooling ourselves.  The end-to-end = cleanest=20 transportation technology available today is high efficiency hybrid = ICE/electric=20 systems.... now if those 30% efficient solar cells someone here posted = about a=20 couple days ago are real and mass producible we may have a new winning=20 combo.
 
That's just=20 looking at the electric side... what do we do with all those toxic dead=20 batteries that will generated as they are regularly = replaced???  It's=20 like the paper recycling lie... reprocessing paper generates a = tremendous amount=20 of unnecessary toxic water and air pollution.  It would be far = "greener" if=20 someone used it as feed stock for a biomass plant = instead... =20 Same kind of lie as the polystyrene big-mac containers... EPS can = be=20 recycled/reused, the film coated corrugated packaging they switched = to is=20 not.
 
http://www.chemistry.wustl.edu/~edudev/LabTutorials/AirQua= lity/AirQuality.html
" Batteries in = all-electric=20 vehicles must be externally recharged.  (Hybrid gasoline/electric = vehicles=20 continuously recharge the batteries during normal operation of the = vehicle.  Although hybrid vehicles are = not ZEVs,=20 they are an extremely efficient use of gasoline-derived energy.)  Usually lead-acid batteries in = electric=20 vehicles are connected to a charger that plugs into an ordinary source = of 110-V=20 electricity.  A complete = analysis of=20 how "clean" an electric vehicle is would have to take into account the = emissions=20 produced by electric companies to generate the electricity used in=20 recharging.  As discussed = above,=20 emissions from electricity production depend on the method used to = generate=20 electricity and vary from one region of the country to another.  In parts of the midwest where=20 high-nitrogen-content fuel is burned to generate electricity (see Box = 2), the=20 benefits of electric vehicles are debatable."
 
http://www.environmentaldefense.org/pressrelease.cfm?ContentID=3D11= 81
"Electricity production has enormous = local and=20 global effects on the environment and human health. The burning of = fossil fuels=20 to produce electricity is the nation's largest source of air pollution. = Power=20 plant emissions contribute to respiratory illnesses, such as asthma, = bronchitis,=20 emphysema and cancer. The air pollutants also are a major factor in the=20 destruction of forests and lakes due to acid rain. And fossil fuel = combustion is=20 the principal source of greenhouse gases that are the cause of global = climate=20 change. Generating electricity with nuclear power produces radioactive = waste=20 that must be isolated from the environment for tens of thousands of=20 years."
 
http://www.mrsharkey.com/= charging2.htm
"At = present, for=20 the vast majority of the country, neither electric vehicles or = comparable=20 gasoline-powered vehicles holds a solid advantage over the other in = cleanliness.=20 This balance will probably not change any time in the near future as the = problem=20 with electric vehicles is not inherent to them, but rather to the means = by which=20 we generate our electricity. Although electric vehicles offer some = compelling=20 advantages over internal combustion engine vehicles in terms of = pollution=20 management, the real advantage of electric vehicles lies in the future = when more=20 electricity is produced from cleaner = sources."  
 
-john
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Jones Beene=20 [mailto:jonesb9 pacbell.net]
Sent: Friday, January 14, 2005 = 11:01=20 AM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Finally, a real = FC=20 vehicle?

It is about time for an ecologically sound transportation vehicle = to hit=20 the market in mass production. The Prius was a giant step, but even at = 50+ mpg=20 it still burns way too much gasoline for some eco-conscious = consumer/commuters=20 (yes, although a distinct minority, there are a few out there, even in = the=20 culture of super-size-it, SUV-loving, = multi-polluting, cell-phone-bonded,=20 natural-resource guzzlers.)
 
This slick 2-wheeler is coming out soon - not in 2005,=20 unfortunately - 
but they claim to be tooling up the factory now (have we heard that = before?):
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/6414390= /
 
there are many other sites with more detail.
 
The good news:
 
1) They are tooling up for a 2006 introduction
2) It is not a cheesy slapped-together kludge
3) It is well-thought out and looks great
4) 150 mile range
5) plenty of speed
6) Longer battery life - Deep discharge cycles minimized by the = fuel cell=20 "trickle"
7) emission free (except for the remote power plant supplying the=20 grid)
 
The "not clear" news (potentially bad)
 
1) the fuel cell is  the Protonex NGen 500 watt fuel cell = system with=20 Vectrix's high performance battery-powered electric maxi-scooter. The = fuel cell=20 is said to double the range of the scooter. But 500 watts ??? That = is not=20 much more than a human can deliver by peddling and this vehicle is=20 comparatively heavy. Is there a huge advantage over an improved electric = bike=20 (Wavecrest, etc) ? 
2) projected cost is high; will probably be $10 k when = delivered
3) Where are you going to refuel with H2?
 
The bad news
1) Not all-weather
2) Should be a methanol FC (or have a reformer) instead of H2 for=20 flexibility
3) Cost
4) Cost
5) Cost
 
The fuel cell / electric hybrid configuration does provide synergy = by using=20 the best aspects of the individual technologies. The battery pack = provides most=20 of the power while the fuel cell provides a continuous "trickle charge" = to keep=20 the batteries "topped-off", greatly extending the range of the scooter = (and=20 battery life). The fuel cell shuts down automatically when the battery = pack is=20 charged and operates at only its optimum efficiency. Fuel cells are not = nearly=20 as efficient when stressed to the max. When you stop at a traffic light = the=20 batteries keep getting charged, etc. There is also regeneration from=20 braking.

All-in-all, the most apt summation that one can provide for = this=20 product is *long overdue* but...
 
... from the perspective of someone who would like have the = option of=20 pedaling...after all, if it is going to be used in good weather = only, why=20 not pedal when you get the urge?... it would be great to see a = souped=20 up combination of the Wavecrest or other nicely designed electric = bicycle with=20 this:
http://tinyurl.com/44mpz=
which looks a little kludgey.
 
Although Keith may be partially correct that most Americans do not = give a=20 damn about energy efficiency or ecology, as long as they can afford the = cost of=20 polluting, I think that is an overstatement. Perhaps 10 to 20 = percent of=20 all commuters, maybe more, do care. Many are even activists- if you = don't=20 believe that, try driving in SF on the designated bike days - even = the cabs=20 go nowhere.
 
This all is indicative of a neglected market worth pursuing, as the = success=20 of the Prius has stunned Detroit. (some would say the success is modest, = but it=20 is the *trend* which is important - with 6 month waiting lists in Cal,=20 it is said to be the only such auto with a "real" waiting list = since=20 the Miyata).
 
...but if the transportation option you propose to introduce = is going=20 to be basically a "fair weather" option, then it cannot cost $10 K, = because it=20 will never be suitable for the only vehicle which one must = own. Almost=20 every younger "aware" person that you hear expressing opinions in new = groups,=20 seems to agree that they would spend a few thousand for a fair-weather=20 transportation, hybrid-battery option (with a fuel-cell for extended = mileage),=20 battery power for hills, ALSO self-powered capability - but ... if there = is no=20 H2 readily available for convenient refills, then it MUST be a methanol = or other=20 liquid fuel option. These Vetrix guys must have missed 'Marketing = 101'.
 
BTW this company PalCan just opened a new plant in China, so don't = be=20 surprised to see a Canadian designed, Chinese built triple-hybrid = bicycle=20 (battery, methanol fuel-cell, human power).
 
This might be the first real test in the transportation marketplace = to see=20 how adept and quick the Chinese are at identifying markets, and getting = there=20 the "first-est with the most-est"... What nation on earth needs this = kind of=20 product more than China - for their own people?
 
Jones
------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C4FA5B.056B9100-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 14 17:00:19 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0F10Aiw017319; Fri, 14 Jan 2005 17:00:14 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0F105wa017277; Fri, 14 Jan 2005 17:00:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 17:00:05 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20050115005958.22081.qmail web81101.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 16:59:58 -0800 (PST) From: Jones Beene Subject: RE: Finally, a real FC vehicle? To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57367 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi John, > Unfortunately the "all-electric" economy is no better than an ICE economy. Yes, but lets clarify that. In the USA this is unfortunately true NOW .... but not in countries like France, for instance, where "all-electric" means lean, green, and ecologically sound. And we can help to change that situation here for the benfit of the next generation. Are the French more intelligent than we? No... well maybe... but they were also "blessed" with having little oil. Yes, you heard me right, "blessed." This sad situation of a non-optimum electrical grid is true now in the USA only because we have lacked, in our society for the last 30 years, the political will-power to make the switch away from fossil fuels - which have always "seemed cheaper" than the alternatives. But who's zooming who? That so-called cost advantage is just "paper-shuffling" manipulation, as it turns out. Good economists (not on the petro-payroll) will tell you that even if solar-wind-nuclear seems to cost 4 time more at any given time, that advantage quickly evaporates over the years when the dollar becomes 6 times weaker because we sent so many greenbacks overseas to pay for what we should have been weaning ourselves off of. And that bit of paper trickery is never-ending. You can forget direct dollar-denominated cost comparisons as being meaningless. IF after the Arab Oil embargo in 1973 we had made the politically unpopular decision to slap an extra $20 barrel tax on imported oil, tripling the cost at the pump, and also given up the oil-depletion allowance give-aways to big-oil, and then used those tax proceeds to go 100% wind-solar-nuclear, mostly nuclear unfortunately, which is essentially what was done in parts or Europe... then we could have, like France has now, a largely nuclear "all-electric" (except for transportation fuels) economy which is economical, safe, far less polluting than natural gas even. They are perfectly poised to use this new technology. And yes, batteries can be recycled easily if they have been engineered for recycling from the start. Dropping imported oil is part of the every unpopular "least of evils" decision. And here we let the oil-establishment make that choice for us. But we could have done what France did, and we did not. That failure should teach us a lesson, in regards to the future situation, but it hasn't sunk in yet. Even if you have a Three Mile Island every twenty years or so, this is more than balanced by having avoided the adverse health effects of the tremendous amount of radiation which burning coal, oil and gas puts directly into the atmosphere. Idiots will tell you natural gas is as clean as it gets, but I can take my radiation monitor and actually measure radioactivity released in the exhaust of my gas-fired furnace (radon mostly). Multiply that small amount by several hundred million and that, my friend, is the real hazard of radiation, not the occassional Three Mile Island. > Until we start tapping less polluting sources of electric generation for the grid we are all just fooling ourselves. No one can disagree with that assessment. We should be funding alternative energy to the max, even if many of the ideas do not pan out. If we had invested, starting in 1989, half of what goes into the black-hole of hot-fusion, then problems would be likely be solved by now. > The end-to-end cleanest transportation technology available today > is high efficiency hybrid ICE/electric systems.... Only in the USA at this moment in time and only given that we do not have politically viable alternatives in the USA, now. Your pronouncement is unnecessarily focused on our past mistakes and not on our future choices to remedy them. Not to mention, you may have a bit of personally stake in ICE technology, but that may or may not affect your ability to look at the larger picture, because ICE technology itself is very adaptable. I suspect that you could convert your 2-cycle engine to run on ethanol or any ecologically sound liquid fuel in a matter of weeks. And yes, ethanol may or may not be part of a sound overall solution. There is considerable debate on whether there are efficient non-distillation methods to produce it at a net ecological advantage. But I am convinced that if enough smart people like yourself, would really say to themselves - is there any usable non-fossil fuel solution, then it would would happen a lot sooner than the oil industry's extensive propaganda machine wants us to believe. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 14 18:22:33 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0F2MRHP023443; Fri, 14 Jan 2005 18:22:27 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0F2MPmc023436; Fri, 14 Jan 2005 18:22:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 18:22:25 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000e01c4faa9$0517cf40$0100007f xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: finally a real FC vehicle Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 20:21:26 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000A_01C4FA76.9FE8DE20"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.5 required=4.0 tests=HTML_20_30,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57368 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C4FA76.9FE8DE20 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000B_01C4FA76.9FED7200" ------=_NextPart_001_000B_01C4FA76.9FED7200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankThe most efficent form of transportation remains the bicycle. Some = years back we looked at producing a 3 wheel bike with the rear dual = wheels articulating for safe cornering. The idea was to use a flywheel.. = but ..alas!!. The materials technology had not caught up with the = demand. At present ,nanotech holds some hope for materials that can = withstand 750-1000 thousand rpm. Flywheels can be recharged with pedal = power or solar electric input. All that is academic facing the reality = of the US market. However ,my grandchildren wouldn't drive anything less = than a Toyota land cruiser to take the kids to school.. a bicycle ? = never !! Lets face it, a super SUV 4 wheel drive with snow tires getting 12 mpg = is vital to getting out of the grocery store or school parking lot = without getting stuck in the pavement even in Miami.=20 Nuclear plants make good sense until you consider they become to "hot" = to service after 40-50 years. Metal fatigue of piping etc. destines them = to be encased in a concrete coffin for some 4000-240,000 years give or = take who's counting. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_000B_01C4FA76.9FED7200 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
The most efficent form of transportation = remains the=20 bicycle. Some years back we looked at producing a  3 wheel bike = with the=20 rear dual wheels articulating for safe cornering. The idea was to use a=20 flywheel.. but ..alas!!. The materials technology had not caught up with = the=20 demand. At present ,nanotech holds some hope for materials that can = withstand=20 750-1000 thousand rpm. Flywheels can be recharged with pedal power or = solar=20 electric input. All that is academic facing the reality of the US = market.=20 However ,my grandchildren wouldn't drive anything less than a Toyota = land=20 cruiser to take the kids to school.. a bicycle ? never !!
 
Lets face it, a   super SUV 4 wheel = drive with=20 snow tires getting 12 mpg is vital to getting out of the grocery store = or school=20 parking lot without getting stuck in the pavement even in=20 Miami. 
 
Nuclear plants make good sense until you = consider they=20 become to "hot" to service after 40-50 years. Metal fatigue of piping = etc.=20 destines them to be encased in a concrete coffin for some = 4000-240,000=20 years give or take who's counting.
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_000B_01C4FA76.9FED7200-- ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C4FA76.9FE8DE20 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000901c4faa8$ea3e7cf0$0100007f xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C4FA76.9FE8DE20-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 14 18:32:11 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0F2W2vn025866; Fri, 14 Jan 2005 18:32:03 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0F2W0AH025825; Fri, 14 Jan 2005 18:32:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 18:32:00 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001d01c4faaa$61a03490$0100007f xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Water and the ZPE Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 20:31:52 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0019_01C4FA78.14B7DCF0"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.5 required=4.0 tests=HTML_40_50,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57369 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C4FA78.14B7DCF0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_001A_01C4FA78.14B7DCF0" ------=_NextPart_001_001A_01C4FA78.14B7DCF0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankThomas, Always interested in anything you have in water research. Most of our = company research emphasis and money is focused on radical new emerging = technology for DeSal pretreatment and disinfection. We win some and lose = some with the past year 2 steps forward and 3 back. www.gasmastrrr.com = will give you a view of the basic product. ------=_NextPart_001_001A_01C4FA78.14B7DCF0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Thomas,
Always interested in anything you have in = water=20 research. Most of our company research emphasis and money is = focused on=20 radical new emerging technology for DeSal pretreatment and = disinfection. We=20 win some and lose some with the past year 2 steps forward and 3 back. www.gasmastrrr.com will give you = a view of=20 the basic product.
 

 

------=_NextPart_001_001A_01C4FA78.14B7DCF0-- ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C4FA78.14B7DCF0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <001801c4faaa$5f4db910$0100007f xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C4FA78.14B7DCF0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 14 18:43:11 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0F2h4vn029096; Fri, 14 Jan 2005 18:43:04 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0F2h3E8029076; Fri, 14 Jan 2005 18:43:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 18:43:03 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20050115024255.73049.qmail web81103.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 18:42:55 -0800 (PST) From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: finally a real FC vehicle To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <000e01c4faa9$0517cf40$0100007f xptower> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57370 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Richard, > Nuclear plants make good sense until you consider > they become to "hot" to service after 40-50 years. > Metal fatigue of piping etc. destines them to be > encased in a concrete coffin for some 4000-240,000 > years give or take who's counting. It doesn't have to be that way. Build the reactor and pipes from those same graphite fibers that you want to use for the flywheel of your trike, and the reactor could operate for 240,000 years, mas o menos... ;-) ...seriously (well, almost), check the cross-section tables... Just because we did it wrong the first few times around, doesn't mean we have to repeat our errors, ad nauseum. But we will will first need to get GE and a few other irresponsible corporate gluttons out of the business. jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 14 20:24:32 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0F4OI3Y022088; Fri, 14 Jan 2005 20:24:23 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0F4OGlk022075; Fri, 14 Jan 2005 20:24:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 20:24:16 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=CBOkeSqEmFgWLg8Ad/dwcowgeyYdaNhZlNOpheX1GzlSA1l55mK3MD1Dmll3YYjE; Message-ID: <410-2200516153246790 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Water Propulsion.. Fill'er Up at The Oort Cloud. Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 21:24:06 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940ee9bad405f7b035b15792fc5ec0ecd78350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.120.251 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57371 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Jones Beene wrote: > > Anyway, the advantage of superchilled water is that you can > get that high acceleration gradient, about 6 times higher > than CO2 sublimation, courtesy of Casimir... and just by > squirting it into a vacuum without any external heat being > applied. You are not dependent on solar, so you could go > wherever in the universe desired... > You have a point there Jones (without the Casimir fantasy) sublimation of ice at 1.3 KW/meter^2 would yield a thrust of about 0.65 lbs (~2.88 nt) off a simple thrust panel; 0.56e-4 kg/sec of water molecules moving at 525 meter/sec. OTOH. processed waste water fed out to a propulsion panel (you could almost get to Mars just by flushing the urinal. One might set up a plasma (corona?) discharge using a screen-wire mash cathode facing the panel (anode) for boost when you pick up a glacier to tow, out in the Oort Cloud. Frederick > > Jones > > ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

Jones Beene wrote:
>
> Anyway, the advantage of superchilled water is that you can
> get that high acceleration gradient, about 6 times higher
> than CO2 sublimation, courtesy of Casimir... and just by
> squirting it into a vacuum without any external heat being
> applied. You are not dependent on solar, so you could go
> wherever in the universe desired...
>
You have a point there Jones (without the Casimir fantasy) sublimation of ice at 1.3 KW/meter^2 would yield
a thrust of about 0.65 lbs (~2.88 nt) off a simple thrust panel; 0.56e-4 kg/sec of water molecules moving at 525 meter/sec.
 
OTOH. processed waste water fed out to a propulsion panel (you could
almost get to Mars just by flushing the urinal.
 
One might set up a plasma (corona?)  discharge using a screen-wire mash cathode
facing the panel (anode) for boost when you pick up a glacier to tow, out in the Oort Cloud.
 
Frederick
>
> Jones
>
>

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 15 05:04:14 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0FD46aQ027621; Sat, 15 Jan 2005 05:04:07 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0FD4492027608; Sat, 15 Jan 2005 05:04:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 05:04:04 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=b8hehJ+7bjYyw04H08DDtG/uv4GtjT9g1I2yrfBs0Y9XfN2KSaIhigDPOVMU3azG; Message-ID: <410-22005161512354140 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Water Propulsion.. Fill'er Up at The Oort Cloud. Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 06:03:54 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940b679136aaa1858917bbfc486f96a0edf350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.152 Resent-Message-ID: <3H8Z_C.A.OvG.ETR6BB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57372 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Previously posted. > > OTOH. processed waste water fed out to a propulsion panel (you could almost get to Mars just by flushing the urinal.) > Reminiscent of "Flush Gordon" of yesteryear. However, a wire mesh "wick" electrode for getting water vapor into a high frequency plasma (Corona) thruster operating off a Solar Panel powered Tesla Coil with the wick as one electrode, and a wire mesh as the other, should allow kilovolt level ion/electron velocities without spacecraft charge buildup problems. A modern "solid state" Tesla Coil: http://www.easternvoltageresearch.com/teslacoil1.htm Having a wire mesh on both sides of the wick electrode would allow switching for direction change i.e., vacuum braking. Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

Previously posted.
>
> OTOH. processed waste water fed out to a propulsion panel (you could almost get to Mars just by flushing the urinal.)
>
Reminiscent of "Flush Gordon" of yesteryear.
 
However, a wire mesh "wick" electrode for getting water vapor into a high frequency plasma (Corona)
thruster operating off a Solar Panel powered Tesla Coil with the wick as one electrode, and a wire mesh as the other,
should allow kilovolt level ion/electron velocities without spacecraft charge buildup problems.
 
A modern "solid state" Tesla Coil:
 
 
Having a wire mesh on both sides of the wick electrode would allow switching for direction
change i.e., vacuum braking.
 
Frederick
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 15 08:52:58 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0FGqjaQ008855; Sat, 15 Jan 2005 08:52:45 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0FGqhsY008846; Sat, 15 Jan 2005 08:52:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 08:52:43 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <0501141212170C.12008 isis> References: <0501141212170C.12008 isis> Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 10:53:11 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: thoughts on Scalar Waves Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: <8u18.A.KKC.bpU6BB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57373 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mark posted; > >"Scalar waves" are said to be based on phenomena related to an >omitted scalar term in Maxwell's equations, or on some strange >effects produced by Tesla's experiments. Three are three types of waves, the transverse, of which light is an example. the longitudinal, of which sound is an example. and the Rayleigh, of which the tsunami is the hydrodynamic manifestation. Have you read the Araronhoff Bohm paper, Physical Review, 1959? It is an experiment using electron interfereometry to measure non tranverse EMF waves produced by destructive interference with a caducius coil. I have also seen reports of these sort of waves produce by the destruction of waves in a T shaped tube. I have a URL which shows these three waves. >And Tom Bearden >received a patent on a relatively simple electronic circuit ("MEG") >incorporating a weird transformer which he says produces about >50 watts of electric power out of thin air indefinitely; he says >that it works by means of "scalar" something-or-other and/or ZPE. AFAIK, Bearden is the only person to have built a MEG that "works." If you look at his "evidence," you will notice lots of graphs, and charts, but he has no interest in doing a conclusive test like heating water, ditto Joe Newman. > >Regarding the Maxwell/Tesla concept, "scalar" fans are claiming >that their "waves" already exist and have done all kinds of things >-- send messages over great distances instantaneously, Just read the Baron's posts for reports of all sorts of marvelous things. >reduce the >World Trade Center Towers' concrete and steel to powder in a flash, >trigger the recent earthquake/tsunami in Indonesia Tesla built a machine which could make a steel building shake, all you have to do is figure out it's resonant frequency and ring it. Take a look at Dale Ponds website, www.svpvril.com , Dale has been studying the inventions of John E W Keeley's work with resonant frequencies. >-- in fact, do >just about anything not understood by these folks, who appear to >have little knowledge of physics. What they lack most of all is a working model. >If any of this were true, it seems >to me that it should be possible to construct some little bench-top >apparatus that would create some kind of strange effect not >explainable by conventional physics. After all, electrical/ >electronic technology has come a long way since Maxwell, and even >since Tesla. You should read Meyl's book, I have the URL for his website if you are interested. > >But I've never heard of any such apparatus that's been duplicated >by a number of people and found to work. With the exception of the Brown Nuclear Battery, and I'm not sure that the excess energy can't be accounted for by a showdown of the emitted particles. The work of Randall Mills, www.blacklightpower.com is interesting, the late Eugene Malove reported that they were producing energy on demand with a hydrino forming chamber. > >As to Bearden, it looks like the circuit shown in his patent could >be built for about fifty bucks, and sold for a thousand or more to >many thousands of scientists, engineers, professors, science fiction >fans, etc., all around the world. I agree, the toy market alone would be huge, >Imagine having a little metal >box on your desk with a 50-watt bulb sticking out of it that stayed >lit for days, months, and years without any external power input. Better yet, a 500 KW unit feeding electricity onto the grid, and a fat check in the mail box every month! > >Bearden could be a multimillionaire in a year or so, but instead >makes money by selling his books and CDs. AFAIK, that is the case. Have you seen his book Fere Du Lance (sp), about the Russian electronic weapons? My comment at the time, the '80's was, if they have that sort of weaponry, we're going to be learning Russian. >And I think I read >recently that he's asking for some $60 million so he can "go >commercial". Hell, give me a working model of it and I'll buy >the parts myself and assemble the damn things in my kitchen. That would be $60,000,000 that the investor would never see again! > >But checking back a year on the "MEG Builders" mailing list doesn't >show anyone reporting success in generating free energy: > >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MEG_builders/messages Don't hold your breath! > >Bearden was also quoted recently, in an article about "scalar >waves" triggering the earthquake, as saying that the waves could >go through the earth without any attenuation, because they don't >travel through space, The late Otto Schmitt, electrophysicist, theorized that it might be possible to produce the electrodynamic equivalent of a tsunami wave. If this were the case, I would expect them to attenuate, but not like transverse EMF waves. I think that it will be sometime before we are able to improve on the killing ability of the Earth. >they travel through the "time domain, >which is everywhere". Now if "time domain" means the same thing >to him as it does to engineers who talk about analyzing signals >in the time domain or the frequency domain, Bearden's statement >makes as much sense as saying that "scalar waves" travel by means >of the alphabet, or the metric system. I was talking to a quantum physicist who was talking about a photon, I believe, having a component running forward, and a paired twin running backwards in time. If this were true would it be possible to relay information from the present to one self in the past? > >Based on all the above data, I've formed the opinion that "scalar >waves" are completely bogus, and that Bearden is a charlatan >leading a cult of gullible believers who circularly cite each >other's web pages as "proof". Dr, Meyl was selling instruments to send and detect scalars, but last spring he told me that "they had no practical applications." > >But I'd love to be shown wrong. The world certainly needs new >sources of energy, before the ultra-wealthy thugs who've taken >control slaughter millions more people in order to get hold of >the remaining oil supply; which may kill almost all life on >Earth if it's burned: > >http://www.monbiot.com/archives/2003/07/01/shadow-of-extinction/ Never attribute to conspiracy what can be explained by simple human stupidity. They, the powers that be, were taking the course of least resistance. Did they realize that giving the Moslems billions of petro dollars would cause them to go on the jihad path? maybe. But this whole scenario, starting with the Jews conquering Israel and ending in this war was prophecically ordained. > >There, I've gone and done it. Oh well, I can always resubscribe >under a fake name... > > Mark From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 15 10:38:39 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0FIcWaQ030934; Sat, 15 Jan 2005 10:38:32 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0FIcVsm030920; Sat, 15 Jan 2005 10:38:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 10:38:31 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=1be9ha+LfhwFUoK7zrYxOmH6Hp/zziq9fvcZepd/UJ5VIpvRzB5fzAAq5u+Ph9KQcVrMRmVk/zxGnQ2JScIYny3DbM0sVParSXiFNbDORmrOMJ0dRDcOztbO6cGlbK8oB5+bnjwbpStOqzO1OFGQQHvy/rVOs8C052soyv4eq1o= ; Message-ID: <20050115183824.70943.qmail web51706.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 10:38:24 -0800 (PST) From: Terry Blanton Subject: Forget Hummingbirds To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57374 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: We should be studying Autotrophs, humans that neither eat nor drink: http://english.pravda.ru/science/19/94/377/14815_autotroph.html Hey, 'pravada' means truth, dunnit? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 15 11:40:00 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0FJdlaQ011014; Sat, 15 Jan 2005 11:39:52 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0FJdjih010998; Sat, 15 Jan 2005 11:39:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 11:39:45 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <022e01c4fb39$dc5852a0$6601a8c0 msns.flt.ptd.net> From: "revtec" To: Subject: Re: WHAT'S NEW Friday, January 14, 2005 Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 14:38:57 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57375 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Akira Kawasaki" > To: "vortex-l" > Sent: Friday, January 14, 2005 4:30 PM > Subject: FW: WHAT'S NEW Friday, January 14, 2005 > > > > 3. CREATIONISM: COURT ORDERS WARNING STICKERS REMOVED IMMEDIATELY. > > While I am not suprised by this ruling, I am certainly dismayed. Darwin > himself referred to his work as theory on pages 205, 206, 209, 211, 218, > 219, 229, 230, 233, 292, 313, 309, 316, 323, 339, 341 and 343 of the paper > back as well as other places. It has been called the "theory of evolution" > for over 100 years! Until the last decade or so the word theory was > prominently connected to the word evolution. This forces me to ask "What > blazing discovery of the past ten years has propelled the "theory of > evolution" into the relm of indisputable fact?". On the contrary, recent > discoveries, and the lack thereof, have, if anything, cast more doubt than > confirmation on the theory! > > On page 222 Darwin admits to "grave cases of difficulty, some of which will > be discussed in my future work". He never produced a future work! > > Jeff Fink > > > The constitutionality of a creationist message got a court test. > > You will recall that in Cobb County, GA, stickers were placed on > > high school biology texts warning that evolution is "a theory, not > > a fact" http://www.aps.org/WN/WN04/wn111204.cfm. Yesterday, in > > ordering the stickers removed, a federal judge said "the stickers > > convey an impermissible message of endorsement." > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 15 12:56:41 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0FKuYaQ026856; Sat, 15 Jan 2005 12:56:35 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0FKuXuc026845; Sat, 15 Jan 2005 12:56:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 12:56:33 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 15:54:53 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: WHAT'S NEW Friday, January 14, 2005 In-reply-to: <022e01c4fb39$dc5852a0$6601a8c0 msns.flt.ptd.net> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57376 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: The idea of evolution predates Darwin by several decades, if not more. Darwin provided a particular _explanation_ of evolution: descent through variation and natural selection. There are alternative non-biblical explanations of evolution. Darwin's explanation currently dominates science and science education, but I doubt it is sufficient. It is fair to portray Darwin's explanation of evolution as a theory, but I think it invites the closure of minds to portray evolution as just a theory. Should we say biblical creationism is just a theory? Harry revtec at revtec PTD.NET wrote: > > >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Akira Kawasaki" >> To: "vortex-l" >> Sent: Friday, January 14, 2005 4:30 PM >> Subject: FW: WHAT'S NEW Friday, January 14, 2005 >> >> >>> 3. CREATIONISM: COURT ORDERS WARNING STICKERS REMOVED IMMEDIATELY. >> >> While I am not suprised by this ruling, I am certainly dismayed. Darwin >> himself referred to his work as theory on pages 205, 206, 209, 211, 218, >> 219, 229, 230, 233, 292, 313, 309, 316, 323, 339, 341 and 343 of the paper >> back as well as other places. It has been called the "theory of > evolution" >> for over 100 years! Until the last decade or so the word theory was >> prominently connected to the word evolution. This forces me to ask "What >> blazing discovery of the past ten years has propelled the "theory of >> evolution" into the relm of indisputable fact?". On the contrary, recent >> discoveries, and the lack thereof, have, if anything, cast more doubt than >> confirmation on the theory! >> >> On page 222 Darwin admits to "grave cases of difficulty, some of which > will >> be discussed in my future work". He never produced a future work! >> >> Jeff Fink >> >>> The constitutionality of a creationist message got a court test. >>> You will recall that in Cobb County, GA, stickers were placed on >>> high school biology texts warning that evolution is "a theory, not >>> a fact" http://www.aps.org/WN/WN04/wn111204.cfm. Yesterday, in >>> ordering the stickers removed, a federal judge said "the stickers >>> convey an impermissible message of endorsement." >> > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 15 13:33:09 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0FLWxaQ001520; Sat, 15 Jan 2005 13:33:00 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0FLWxOG001506; Sat, 15 Jan 2005 13:32:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 13:32:59 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Ancient Alchemy X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: ID = 7b84137320e539ae3bcf255acd0b8dbd Reply-To: michael.foster excite.com From: "Michael Foster" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: michael.foster excite.com X-Mailer: PHP Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050115213247.219581BCFB xprdmailfe23.nwk.excite.com> Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 16:32:47 -0500 (EST) Resent-Message-ID: <11dZCB.A.eX.KwY6BB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57377 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: That's pretty interesting Frederick. However, ammonia was made hundreds, if not thousands of years before 1782. It used to be called spirits of hartshorn and has been know in Celtic and Gothic Europe since prehistory. As its name indicates it was made from deer antlers. Actually,it can be made from any horny keratin containing substance, such as hair, fingernails, animal hooves, etc. You just grind up the material and heat it with lime and ammonia is given off. Since lime can be made from heating limestone, marble, chalk or sea shells, it's pretty easy to see how far back this discovery might have been made. M. --- On Fri 01/14, Frederick Sparber < fjsparber earthlink.net > wrote: From: Frederick Sparber [mailto: fjsparber earthlink.net] To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 09:47:38 -0600 Subject: Re: Ancient Alchemy

FWIW: Ammonium Chloride (Sal Ammoniac)

"Workers at the Temple of Ammon in ancient Egypt combined camel dung and urine collected on the temple grounds, and used it for cleaning clothes. The origin of that recipe is unclear. But the Romans called this substance sal ammoniac, the salt of Ammon. A gas, first extracted from the salt in 1782, was called ammonia."

Actually (according to an old Britannica) they mixed the dung and urine with salt (NaCl) and

heated it over a fire: 2 NaCl + Urea (NH2-CO-NH2) + 2 H2O ---> Na2CO3 + 2 NH4Cl (Sal Ammoniac)

Most likely the gold color of the camel urine inspired them to see if they could make gold from it.

Na2CO3 is washing soda. Sal Ammoniac (looks like soap) sublimes at about 340 C is used to

clean soldering-iron tips.

Frederick

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 15 14:20:37 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0FMKXap019435; Sat, 15 Jan 2005 14:20:33 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0FMKLXb019376; Sat, 15 Jan 2005 14:20:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 14:20:21 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <024901c4fb50$402c0a40$6601a8c0 msns.flt.ptd.net> From: "revtec" To: References: Subject: Re: WHAT'S NEW Friday, January 14, 2005 Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 17:19:13 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57378 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I believe in variation and natural selection within the constraints that we see it happen. I am quite content to have someone label biblical creation as also a theory since no one seems able to prove that scientificly either. Biblical creation requires almost as much faith as evolution. Darwin never touched the question of origin. He left that extrapolation entirely to our imaginations! Jeff ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harry Veeder" To: Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2005 3:54 PM Subject: Re: WHAT'S NEW Friday, January 14, 2005 > The idea of evolution predates Darwin by several decades, if not more. > > Darwin provided a particular _explanation_ of evolution: descent through > variation and natural selection. > > There are alternative non-biblical explanations of evolution. Darwin's > explanation currently dominates science and science education, but I doubt > it is sufficient. > > It is fair to portray Darwin's explanation of evolution as a theory, but I > think it invites the closure of minds to portray evolution as just a theory. > > Should we say biblical creationism is just a theory? > > Harry > > > > > revtec at revtec PTD.NET wrote: > > > > > > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "Akira Kawasaki" > >> To: "vortex-l" > >> Sent: Friday, January 14, 2005 4:30 PM > >> Subject: FW: WHAT'S NEW Friday, January 14, 2005 > >> > >> > >>> 3. CREATIONISM: COURT ORDERS WARNING STICKERS REMOVED IMMEDIATELY. > >> > >> While I am not suprised by this ruling, I am certainly dismayed. Darwin > >> himself referred to his work as theory on pages 205, 206, 209, 211, 218, > >> 219, 229, 230, 233, 292, 313, 309, 316, 323, 339, 341 and 343 of the paper > >> back as well as other places. It has been called the "theory of > > evolution" > >> for over 100 years! Until the last decade or so the word theory was > >> prominently connected to the word evolution. This forces me to ask "What > >> blazing discovery of the past ten years has propelled the "theory of > >> evolution" into the relm of indisputable fact?". On the contrary, recent > >> discoveries, and the lack thereof, have, if anything, cast more doubt than > >> confirmation on the theory! > >> > >> On page 222 Darwin admits to "grave cases of difficulty, some of which > > will > >> be discussed in my future work". He never produced a future work! > >> > >> Jeff Fink > >> > >>> The constitutionality of a creationist message got a court test. > >>> You will recall that in Cobb County, GA, stickers were placed on > >>> high school biology texts warning that evolution is "a theory, not > >>> a fact" http://www.aps.org/WN/WN04/wn111204.cfm. Yesterday, in > >>> ordering the stickers removed, a federal judge said "the stickers > >>> convey an impermissible message of endorsement." > >> > > > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 15 15:37:40 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0FNbVaQ027972; Sat, 15 Jan 2005 15:37:31 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0FNbULe027963; Sat, 15 Jan 2005 15:37:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 15:37:30 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 18:35:51 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: WHAT'S NEW Friday, January 14, 2005 In-reply-to: <024901c4fb50$402c0a40$6601a8c0 msns.flt.ptd.net> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57379 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: revtec at revtec PTD.NET wrote: > I believe in variation and natural selection within the constraints that we > see it happen. > > I am quite content to have someone label biblical creation > as also a theory since no one seems able to prove that scientificly either. > > > Biblical creation requires almost as much faith as evolution. > > Darwin never touched the question of origin. He left that extrapolation > entirely to our imaginations! > Agreed, but what do you mean by the "question of origin"? Darwin did touch on the ancestry of man and many other animals. In particular he argued man and ape evolved from a common ancestor. Hence the title of his work -- The Origin of Species. If you want to be considered a scientist today, and you imagine a different origin of man, you dare not express it or you will be branded a simpleton or a quack. Harry > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Harry Veeder" > To: > Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2005 3:54 PM > Subject: Re: WHAT'S NEW Friday, January 14, 2005 > > >> The idea of evolution predates Darwin by several decades, if not more. >> >> Darwin provided a particular _explanation_ of evolution: descent through >> variation and natural selection. >> >> There are alternative non-biblical explanations of evolution. Darwin's >> explanation currently dominates science and science education, but I doubt >> it is sufficient. >> >> It is fair to portray Darwin's explanation of evolution as a theory, but I >> think it invites the closure of minds to portray evolution as just a > theory. >> >> Should we say biblical creationism is just a theory? >> >> Harry >> >> >> >> >> revtec at revtec PTD.NET wrote: >> >>> >>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Akira Kawasaki" >>>> To: "vortex-l" >>>> Sent: Friday, January 14, 2005 4:30 PM >>>> Subject: FW: WHAT'S NEW Friday, January 14, 2005 >>>> >>>> >>>>> 3. CREATIONISM: COURT ORDERS WARNING STICKERS REMOVED IMMEDIATELY. >>>> >>>> While I am not suprised by this ruling, I am certainly dismayed. > Darwin >>>> himself referred to his work as theory on pages 205, 206, 209, 211, > 218, >>>> 219, 229, 230, 233, 292, 313, 309, 316, 323, 339, 341 and 343 of the > paper >>>> back as well as other places. It has been called the "theory of >>> evolution" >>>> for over 100 years! Until the last decade or so the word theory was >>>> prominently connected to the word evolution. This forces me to ask > "What >>>> blazing discovery of the past ten years has propelled the "theory of >>>> evolution" into the relm of indisputable fact?". On the contrary, > recent >>>> discoveries, and the lack thereof, have, if anything, cast more doubt > than >>>> confirmation on the theory! >>>> >>>> On page 222 Darwin admits to "grave cases of difficulty, some of which >>> will >>>> be discussed in my future work". He never produced a future work! >>>> >>>> Jeff Fink >>>> >>>>> The constitutionality of a creationist message got a court test. >>>>> You will recall that in Cobb County, GA, stickers were placed on >>>>> high school biology texts warning that evolution is "a theory, not >>>>> a fact" http://www.aps.org/WN/WN04/wn111204.cfm. Yesterday, in >>>>> ordering the stickers removed, a federal judge said "the stickers >>>>> convey an impermissible message of endorsement." >>>> >>> >>> >> >> > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 15 17:35:16 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0G1Z8aQ016441; Sat, 15 Jan 2005 17:35:09 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0G1Z7tp016433; Sat, 15 Jan 2005 17:35:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 17:35:07 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=bVwRJU5fOGPE63UX42XWZIySbTHY5mIeHkmxcgtsY2W+7z+1WOKdfSze2L3wcAEfCtd/WuCe+u1DhArBqdFWZ1KSZdD5KpXLhll5qPmFM5OeUFTOUZ01urB6ODdtb73qDTOI1tkJDyeyktsMl13M5GNEYxuB7oy9/XLPKNWrFWs= ; Message-ID: <20050116013500.6561.qmail web51701.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 17:35:00 -0800 (PST) From: Terry Blanton Subject: Re: Vehicles need to be insulated To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57380 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --- Horace Heffner wrote: > Heating on > the other hand, is a matter of health and safety > here in Alaska. Maybe one day aerogel will keep you warm: http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/story?id=399812&page=1 __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? All your favorites on one personal page – Try My Yahoo! http://my.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 15 18:42:59 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0G2gmD8029836; Sat, 15 Jan 2005 18:42:52 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0G2gkLS029829; Sat, 15 Jan 2005 18:42:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 18:42:46 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <026901c4fb74$df3224c0$6601a8c0 msns.flt.ptd.net> From: "revtec" To: References: Subject: Re: WHAT'S NEW Friday, January 14, 2005 Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 21:41:21 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57381 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harry Veeder" To: Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2005 6:35 PM Subject: Re: WHAT'S NEW Friday, January 14, 2005 > > > revtec at revtec PTD.NET wrote: > > > I believe in variation and natural selection within the constraints that we > > see it happen. > > > > I am quite content to have someone label biblical creation > > as also a theory since no one seems able to prove that scientificly either. > > > > > > Biblical creation requires almost as much faith as evolution. > > > > Darwin never touched the question of origin. He left that extrapolation > > entirely to our imaginations! > > > > Agreed, but what do you mean by the "question of origin"? > > Darwin did touch on the ancestry of man and many other animals. > In particular he argued man and ape evolved from a common ancestor. > Hence the title of his work -- The Origin of Species. Darwin quit at postulating common ancestry without addressing the origin of life in its most basic form. In a previous thread, we hit on the difficulties of having matter mixtures within the universe self oganizing to the fantastic degree of forming a living cell, which implies the necessity of intelligent design input to make it happen. At another level we have what is termed the Cambrian explosion where a myriad of strange creatures come into existance at once with no trace of ancestors in the underlying rock strata. This is one of the great difficulties Darwin wrestled with. He tries to explain this problem away, but it sure resembles an act of creation to me. And, then you have the career ending level of origin, where God told Moses how he did it and Moses wrote it down as the first chapters of Genesis. > If you want to be considered a scientist today, and you imagine > a different origin of man, you dare not express it or you will be > branded a simpleton or a quack. Are you saying that the scientific establishment allows a scientist to attend church so long as he/she does not believe the first chapters of the Bible? I'm thankful that I am not beholden to the scientific community. They don't sign my pay check and they never will. If the first part of the Bible is a fairy tale, then, how far into it does the truth start? If the first part is a lie, then, the rest can't be trusted either. The whole thing should be dumped in the trash and one should sleep in on a Sunday morning. The Bible is either the word of God or it isn't. It's all or nothing for me. Anything else is hypocritical. My bottom line is that the Bible makes more sense to me than Darwinism. Jeff From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 15 18:48:39 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0G2mS8R031078; Sat, 15 Jan 2005 18:48:29 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0G2mRJN031064; Sat, 15 Jan 2005 18:48:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 18:48:27 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <027601c4fb75$a939cf20$6601a8c0 msns.flt.ptd.net> From: "revtec" To: References: Subject: Re: More on Crookes radiometer Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 21:47:01 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57382 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: What do you think would happen if I put a set of radiometer paddles in my PAGD tube and fire it up? Jeff From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 15 20:48:46 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0G4ma6Y020721; Sat, 15 Jan 2005 20:48:37 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0G4mXDp020695; Sat, 15 Jan 2005 20:48:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 20:48:33 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050116044616.006af6dc pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 04:46:16 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: WHAT'S NEW Friday, January 14, 2005 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57383 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 09:41 pm 15-01-05 -0500, you wrote: > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Harry Veeder" >To: >Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2005 6:35 PM >Subject: Re: WHAT'S NEW Friday, January 14, 2005 > > >> >> >> revtec at revtec PTD.NET wrote: >> >> > I believe in variation and natural selection within the constraints that >we >> > see it happen. >> > >> > I am quite content to have someone label biblical creation >> > as also a theory since no one seems able to prove that scientificly >either. >> > >> > >> > Biblical creation requires almost as much faith as evolution. >> > >> > Darwin never touched the question of origin. He left that extrapolation >> > entirely to our imaginations! >> > >> >> Agreed, but what do you mean by the "question of origin"? >> >> Darwin did touch on the ancestry of man and many other animals. >> In particular he argued man and ape evolved from a common ancestor. >> Hence the title of his work -- The Origin of Species. > >Darwin quit at postulating common ancestry without addressing the origin of >life in its most basic form. In a previous thread, we hit on the >difficulties of having matter mixtures within the universe self oganizing to >the fantastic degree of forming a living cell, which implies the necessity >of intelligent design input to make it happen. > >At another level we have what is termed the Cambrian explosion where a >myriad of strange creatures come into existance at once with no trace of >ancestors in the underlying rock strata. This is one of the great >difficulties Darwin wrestled with. He tries to explain this problem away, >but it sure resembles an act of creation to me. > >And, then you have the career ending level of origin, where God told Moses >how he did it and Moses wrote it down as the first chapters of Genesis. > >> If you want to be considered a scientist today, and you imagine >> a different origin of man, you dare not express it or you will be >> branded a simpleton or a quack. > >Are you saying that the scientific establishment allows a scientist to >attend church so long as he/she does not believe the first chapters of the >Bible? I'm thankful that I am not beholden to the scientific community. >They don't sign my pay check and they never will. > >If the first part of the Bible is a fairy tale, then, how far into it does >the truth start? If the first part is a lie, then, the rest can't be >trusted either. The whole thing should be dumped in the trash and one >should sleep in on a Sunday morning. The Bible is either the word of God or >it isn't. It's all or nothing for me. Anything else is hypocritical. > >My bottom line is that the Bible makes more sense to me than Darwinism. > >Jeff > > Well said Jeff. 8-) Cheers Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 16 00:33:50 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0G8Xf6Y029167; Sun, 16 Jan 2005 00:33:41 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0G8X9Sp029055; Sun, 16 Jan 2005 00:33:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 00:33:09 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <026901c4fb74$df3224c0$6601a8c0 msns.flt.ptd.net> References: <026901c4fb74$df3224c0$6601a8c0 msns.flt.ptd.net> Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 02:33:31 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: WHAT'S NEW Friday, January 14, 2005 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57384 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > > > > revtec at revtec PTD.NET wrote: > > > > Biblical creation requires almost as much faith as evolution. >> > It requires more faith > > > Darwin did touch on the ancestry of man and many other animals. >> In particular he argued man and ape evolved from a common ancestor. >> Hence the title of his work -- The Origin of Species. So he postulated that one species could evolve into another, such that subsequently,they could not cross breed? This has never been observed, ergo his theory is bogus, and IMHO deserves to be labeled as such. > >At another level we have what is termed the Cambrian explosion where a >myriad of strange creatures come into existance at once with no trace of >ancestors in the underlying rock strata. This is one of the great >difficulties Darwin wrestled with. He tries to explain this problem away, >but it sure resembles an act of creation to me. I agree. Unfortunately there are Christians who insist on a literal 6, 24 hour day creation, despite the fact that the Hebrew text can be read to mean either that or a preexistent Earth which had been rendered dead. While this sort of absolutism plays well with the Christian masses, it turns off many educated people. I regard this as the Christian version of political correctness. > >> If you want to be considered a scientist today, and you imagine >> a different origin of man, you dare not express it or you will be >> branded a simpleton or a quack. I will be posting the following to my blog, www.prodofgod.blogspot.com . The sexual fusion process resets the DNA code. This is a reversal of the Second Law of Thermodynamics. I believe that this is the best argument I have found to make the case for the stupidity of the theory of Spontaneous Biogenesis, it's even better than the complexity of life argument. > >Are you saying that the scientific establishment allows a scientist to >attend church so long as he/she does not believe the first chapters of the >Bible? I'm thankful that I am not beholden to the scientific community. >They don't sign my pay check and they never will. This is sad but true, Parksie told me, "if you believe in a creator (god) who manipulates DNA, you are terminally ignorant." The thing that I remember from Parksie's last newsletter is his going on about reversing our hard won right to purchase the herbal supplements of our choice. Any competent Biophysicist will admit that they don't understand the nature of Chi, and how it makes life work. What burns me the most about Parksie's Pronouncements is his attacks on Energy Medicine, about which he has less understanding than a pig does about Easter. IMHO, they are either blinded by their pet paradigm or ignorant and proud of it. > >If the first part of the Bible is a fairy tale, then, how far into it does >the truth start? If the first part is a lie, then, the rest can't be >trusted either. The whole thing should be dumped in the trash and one >should sleep in on a Sunday morning. The Bible is either the word of God or >it isn't. It's all or nothing for me. Anything else is hypocritical. With reference to the Bible being a fairy tale, I assume that you have heard of the Bible Code? While the odds of the Codes occurring by chance are huge, they are much smaller than the simplest biological reactions occurring by chance. BTW, I have some excellent B C URL's that I can send to anyone interested in the subject. There is no way that even someone with an intimate knowledge of the Jewish People, the 20th century and Hebrew could have written the Tanach (Old Testament). > >My bottom line is that the Bible makes more sense to me than Darwinism. I agree. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 16 04:28:16 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0GCSBqO011161; Sun, 16 Jan 2005 04:28:11 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0GCRxKK011101; Sun, 16 Jan 2005 04:27:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 04:27:59 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: "Mark Jordan" Organization: attached To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 10:27:37 -0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: WHAT'S NEW Friday, January 14, 2005 Message-ID: <41EA4199.31769.19D380 localhost> Priority: normal In-reply-to: <026901c4fb74$df3224c0$6601a8c0 msns.flt.ptd.net> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (4.21c) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body X-Authenticated-Sender: mark cpovo.net X-Spam-Processed: teta.cpovo.net, Sun, 16 Jan 2005 10:30:11 -0200 (not processed: message from trusted or authenticated source) X-MDRemoteIP: 200.102.200.117 X-Return-Path: enkitec yahoo.com X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-MDAV-Processed: teta.cpovo.net, Sun, 16 Jan 2005 10:30:15 -0200 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57385 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 15 Jan 2005 at 21:41, revtec wrote: > If the first part of the Bible is a fairy tale, then, how far into it does > the truth start? If the first part is a lie, then, the rest can't be > trusted either. The whole thing should be dumped in the trash and one > should sleep in on a Sunday morning. The Bible is either the word of God or > it isn't. It's all or nothing for me. Anything else is hypocritical. > > My bottom line is that the Bible makes more sense to me than Darwinism. > > Jeff > I think you would like reading Zecharia Sitchin's books. He did a very interesting Genesis analysis based on ancient Sumerian legacy. Take a look at http://www.sitchin.com Mark Jordan From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 16 07:21:49 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0GFLfqO012304; Sun, 16 Jan 2005 07:21:41 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0GFLdHn012293; Sun, 16 Jan 2005 07:21:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 07:21:39 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000201c4fbdf$0dd7ecf0$0500a8c0 nixlaptop> From: "Nick Palmer" To: "Vortex-L" Subject: Clusters Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 15:21:22 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0003_01C4FBDF.091C39A0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57386 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C4FBDF.091C39A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This tells how clusters of atoms can behave like super atoms of another = element. It seemed like it might be relevant to explaining LENR-CANR to = me... http://www.physorg.com/news2672.html ------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C4FBDF.091C39A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

This tells how clusters of atoms can = behave like=20 super atoms of another element. It seemed like it might be relevant to=20 explaining LENR-CANR to me...
 
http://www.physorg.com/news= 2672.html
------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C4FBDF.091C39A0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 16 11:26:44 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0GJQSqO032749; Sun, 16 Jan 2005 11:26:29 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0GJQQUQ032731; Sun, 16 Jan 2005 11:26:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 11:26:26 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Clusters Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 14:26:47 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <000201c4fbdf$0dd7ecf0$0500a8c0 nixlaptop> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: <4ABmdC.A.X_H.i_r6BB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57387 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Nick. Nice find. I think you may be on to something about the relation to LENR, I have read (and done) unpublished experimental research on LENR using aluminum salts. The whole notion of "cluster" chemistry has great interest to me, it is indeed a third dimension to the periodic table which has yet to be investigated. The old problem with this research was generating enough composition to do bulk chemistry with; the tried and true method of generating clusters is to spray a beam of hot atoms into a vacuum chamber and as the clusters form and cool they drop and deposit on the bottom of the chamber, the size of the cluster being larger near the entrance and smallest near the exit. Great for the condensed matter physicist, but a pisspoor way to make clusters for the chemist. A wet chemical method is a big advance. I would be remiss in not mentioning that old coyote David Hudson; he was a big proponent of cluster based chemisty and claimed to have some success ( although he sort of turns the notion on it's head and claims ALL materials are cluster like and the rare form is the monatom ) doing chemical operations to achieve the result. If you can send me a copy of the Science article I'd be most appreciative. K. -----Original Message----- From: Nick Palmer [mailto:nick wynterwood.co.uk] Sent: Sunday, January 16, 2005 10:21 AM To: Vortex-L Subject: Clusters This tells how clusters of atoms can behave like super atoms of another element. It seemed like it might be relevant to explaining LENR-CANR to me... http://www.physorg.com/news2672.html From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 16 11:34:38 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0GJYPqO002254; Sun, 16 Jan 2005 11:34:25 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0GJYOnK002233; Sun, 16 Jan 2005 11:34:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 11:34:24 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20050116193416.97628.qmail web81106.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 11:34:16 -0800 (PST) From: Jones Beene Subject: RE: Clusters To: knagel gis.net, vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57388 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Keith and Nick, Is not a cluster an exciton? or maybe the question should be, is not an exciton an "active" cluster of a particular material in a particular geometric configuration? Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 16 12:11:25 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0GKBCqO010134; Sun, 16 Jan 2005 12:11:12 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0GKB8Ra010092; Sun, 16 Jan 2005 12:11:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 12:11:08 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 15:09:40 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: serious chewing and eotvos In-reply-to: <2.2.32.20050114102357.0069d7fc pop.freeserve.net> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57390 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Grimer at f.grimer grimer2.freeserve.co.uk wrote: > At 15:41 13/01/2005 -0500, Harry wrote: > >> All this flows from _your_ force analysis of orbital motion. I think it is a >> mistaken analysis because it is based on an analogy between orbital motion >> and a body in a centrifuge. A body orbits the earth because it is in >> free fall. There is simply no outward force associated with that sort of >> motion. The bottom line is mechanical systems do not accurately model >> gravitational systems. > > > I think I can see where our disagreement on this bit lies. > You take the rather naive view that motion in a straight > line (straight relative the frame of the "fixed" stars) is > forceless. My position is Gravity is not a 'force' in the sense of a push or a pull, so orbital motion is NOT a balance of 'forces'. I think motion under gravity is inconsistent with the first law of motion as drafted by Newton. > I don't. > > I view motion in a straight line in a way more in keeping > with the modern science of Cybernetics and Information Theory. > > I see motion in a straight line as controlled by equal > and opposite Beta-aether forces on the sides of a body. > Any deviation from a straight line is counteracted by > negative feedback from the Beta-aether. Taking this view, > centrifugal forces are REAL forces. May be so, but I don't think they are real or apparent in the context of orbital motion. > >> However, for sake of argument, I will accept your force analysis of orbital >> motion, but you still have a problem explaining why weight should not arise >> because most bodies consist of protons and neutrons. Your explanation only >> covers bodies composed of thing 1 and thing 2 particles. > > > Yes, but "most bodies" also "consist" of atoms. > > And had we been having this discussion in the > nineteenth century you would have been singing, > that century's equivalent of - If only I could sing and dance. > # There's antimony, arsenic, aluminum, selenium, > And hydrogen and oxygen and nitrogen and rhenium, > And nickel, neodymium, neptunium, germanium, > And iron, americium, ruthenium, uranium, > Europium, zirconium, lutetium, vanadium, > And lanthanum and osmium and astatine and radium, > And gold and protactinium and indium and gallium, > And iodine and thorium and thulium and thallium. # > > # There's yttrium, ytterbium, actinium, rubidium, > And boron, gadolinium, .........# > > .....and if someone had told you, > > "Ah, yes. But inside each of those allegedly indivisible \ > atoms there is this teeny-weeny Thing 1 core which grabs > virtually all the mass. > > And this teeny-weeny Thing 1 core is surrounded by > a wispy Thing 2 cloud which grabs virtually all > the space,"..... > > ,,,,you would have laughed him to scorn, and said. > > "Pull the other one. It's got bells on." > > And yet Thing 1 and Thing 2 have a Thingee Force > which holds them together; and they can be put in > an environment where the atom will suffer internal > strain. In some environments they suffer internal strain. but orbiting free fall motion is strain free. ...The way of Tao. Harry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 16 13:00:57 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0GL0nqO019667; Sun, 16 Jan 2005 13:00:50 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0GL0mtQ019653; Sun, 16 Jan 2005 13:00:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 13:00:48 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: "Vortex" , "Jones Beene" Subject: RE: Clusters Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 16:01:02 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <20050116193416.97628.qmail web81106.mail.yahoo.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57392 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Jones Etc. It's more like a chlatrate (of sorts); one capable of forming ionic bonds with other atoms the way an ordinary ion does. Here's some more on the subject. http://www.science.psu.edu/alert/Castleman3-2004.htm The Science website will not let you look at _abstracts_ much less the paper without some coin. This would bother me much less if the work wasn't done at a state college payed for out of DOE grant money. K. -----Original Message----- From: Jones Beene [mailto:jonesb9 pacbell.net] Sent: Sunday, January 16, 2005 2:34 PM To: knagel gis.net; vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: Clusters Hi Keith and Nick, Is not a cluster an exciton? or maybe the question should be, is not an exciton an "active" cluster of a particular material in a particular geometric configuration? Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 16 15:38:10 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0GNc4ns002467; Sun, 16 Jan 2005 15:38:05 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0GNbeAx002300; Sun, 16 Jan 2005 15:37:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 15:37:40 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002401c4fc24$57ded4e0$0100007f xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: Whats new continue Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 17:36:49 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0020_01C4FBF1.F5C16980" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.8 required=4.0 tests=HTML_30_40,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57394 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01C4FBF1.F5C16980 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0021_01C4FBF1.F5C16980" ------=_NextPart_001_0021_01C4FBF1.F5C16980 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankCreationism vs. Darwinism.. My simple mind looks at a 3 dollar wind up pocket watch ( Mickey Mouse = type preferred) and a yardstick and ponders. If I wind up the watch and as it runs I witness the beginning of a = measure of time.. or ..did time exist before I started the watch? Next. I have a ladder that has legs that can extend to infinite height. = Taking the yard stick , I began measuring height by the yard . How long = would it take me to measure to the "top" ? If the watch never stops.. regardless of how much time elapses, that = interval will NEVER equal the amount of time that had passed BEFORE the = watch was started. Same for the yardstick. Regardless of how much = "height" is measured. it will NEVER equal the distance below the point = at which you began measuring. As idiotic as this post reads, it makes a point. That being you can = theorize evolution vs creationalism forever and still miss the evidence = staring you in the face. Time is... length is. explain its origin. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0021_01C4FBF1.F5C16980 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Creationism vs. Darwinism..
 
My simple mind looks at a 3 dollar wind up = pocket watch=20 ( Mickey Mouse type preferred) and a yardstick and ponders.
 
If I wind up the watch and as it runs I = witness the=20 beginning of a measure of time.. or ..did time exist before I started = the=20 watch?
 
Next. I have a ladder that has legs that = can =20 extend to infinite height. Taking the yard stick , I began measuring = height by=20 the yard . How long would it take me to measure to the "top" = ?
 
If the watch never stops.. regardless of how = much=20 time  elapses, that interval will NEVER equal the amount of time = that had=20 passed BEFORE the watch was started. Same for the yardstick. Regardless = of how=20 much "height" is measured. it will NEVER equal the distance below the = point at=20 which you began measuring.
 
As idiotic as this post reads, it makes a = point. That=20 being you can theorize evolution vs creationalism forever and still miss = the=20 evidence staring you in the face.
 
Time is... length is. explain its = origin.
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_0021_01C4FBF1.F5C16980-- ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01C4FBF1.F5C16980 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <001f01c4fc24$404962f0$0100007f xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01C4FBF1.F5C16980-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 16 18:12:16 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0H2C4ZO014694; Sun, 16 Jan 2005 18:12:08 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0H2C3WM014672; Sun, 16 Jan 2005 18:12:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 18:12:03 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 20:12:46 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: Vehicles need to be insulated Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57395 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner posted; > >Cooling may be a luxury, but people in hot climates demand it. Heating on >the other hand, is a matter of health and safety here in Alaska. It is >often difficult just to keep the ice off the windshield here White man invent gas powered heater and absorption chiller. > >The only way to combat the heating and cooling problem is insulation, which >is poor to non-existent in most cars. Good thermal insulation also has the Insulation only holds heat that is in the vehicle in. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 16 18:22:25 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0H2MKrd001479; Sun, 16 Jan 2005 18:22:20 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0H2Lv2U001416; Sun, 16 Jan 2005 18:21:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 18:21:57 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 20:22:31 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: ionizing radiation Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57396 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I did a remodeling project on what once was a medical clinic. When we cut into the walls, there were sheets of lead in them. I am interested in stopping EMF, in particular short wave X rays and possibly shorter wave EMF. If I put it into a grounded metal, or metal screen box, would that stop it? I assume that the holes in the screen would have to be smaller than the size of the waves? What if I had electrical conductors, coming out of the Faraday Cage, would the short wave EMF be conducted with them? Would a transformer stop them? There was a man who was interviewed on C to C AM last week. He talked about cell phones. Basically his message was don't use them. Even in stand by mode, they still hand shake with the nearest tower and in the process irradiate you. Then there are the towers, he said that you don't want to be within 500 feet of one. I used the ear jack when I made phone calls, but apparently the EMF follows the wires into the ear jack. If his story is correct, over population will not be a problem for much longer. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 16 18:34:11 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0H2Y2ZO022655; Sun, 16 Jan 2005 18:34:03 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0H2Y1c2022641; Sun, 16 Jan 2005 18:34:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 18:34:01 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20050107171000.73714.qmail web81109.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050107171000.73714.qmail web81109.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 20:34:38 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: Electronium-Light definitions requested Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57397 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene Posted; > >Wow... not ready to jump-in on that one yet... but to >backtrack a bit to the electronium bound triad of >leptons - Frederick, in particular, should be I assume that Leptons are particles which are seen in particle accelerators. You're saying that there are three Leptons which comprise a electronium? is an electronium an electron which is at a higher frequency? the physicist I talked to was talking about a Muon and a Tau which he said were electrons one octave higher and two octaves higher. >supposed to be the basis of "spintronics" area of >electronics devices." Are you saying that there is an on the shelf method of accomplishing this? > >Yes, and we should add that the answer is important in >the larger field of "excitonics" as well, not to Is excitonics the same a spintronics? > >Just a teaser. For the whole answer you will have to >download and study a rather long paper, some >elementary but with some gems of insight... Thanks for the URL Jones, my business associate, Leon, has finished reading Randall's book. He's been asking questions about if Randall has demonstrated that he has really dropped hydrogen's electrons below the ground state, or is he theorizing? I'm going to see if I can get him to read that paper. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 16 18:41:25 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0GLZMQV003297; Sun, 16 Jan 2005 13:35:22 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0GLZK7d003282; Sun, 16 Jan 2005 13:35:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 13:35:20 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050116213300.006b8cc0 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 21:33:00 +0000 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: RE: Clusters Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57393 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 02:26 pm 16-01-05 -0500, Keith wrote: > I would be remiss in not mentioning that old coyote David Hudson; he > was a big proponent of cluster based chemistry and claimed to have > some success ( although he sort of turns the notion on it's head > and claims ALL materials are cluster like and the rare form is > the monatom ) doing chemical operations to achieve the result. > If you can send me a copy of the Science article I'd be most > appreciative. > K. I'm interested to read what you say about "that old coyote David Hudson". Not only do I think he's generally correct but I would go further and say that all [What all? - Well, nearly all. ;-) ] materials are composed of a hierarchy of self similar clusters which is why, of course, they exhibit power law relations between various measures of strength and density for example. In fact I wrote an Internal Note on this at RRL in the early 60s. I'll have to get down to the job of OCRing it and putting it on the Beta-atmosphere Yahoo site. I believe that clusters are also relevant to the success Mizuno has with his sintered specimens (page 73-74 of Jed's translation). I think he was a bit of a chicken not to do the kamikaze and let the specimens blow up the lab. Politicians will never be convinced by calorimetry, but blow up a city block or two and they will sit up and take notice. 8-) Cheers Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 16 18:41:50 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0GJinQV018563; Sun, 16 Jan 2005 11:44:49 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0GJiYj2018501; Sun, 16 Jan 2005 11:44:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 11:44:34 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002501c4fc03$c810eb70$0500a8c0 nixlaptop> From: "Nick Palmer" To: References: <20050116193416.97628.qmail web81106.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Clusters Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 19:44:19 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57389 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I envisioned something like clusters of atoms in, say, palladium taking on the characteristics of another element and the coulomb barrier being thereby greatly modified for any deuterium atoms within the cluster... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 16 18:41:52 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0GKLUQV024584; Sun, 16 Jan 2005 12:21:31 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0GKLUan024564; Sun, 16 Jan 2005 12:21:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 12:21:30 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: <624c1cff-bfd7-4c53-914d-a77cb7d6ea25> Message-ID: <004a01c4fc08$ef8d76a0$9a7bccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <000201c4fbdf$0dd7ecf0$0500a8c0 nixlaptop> Subject: Re: Clusters Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 15:20:58 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0047_01C4FBDE.FAC962B0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57391 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0047_01C4FBDE.FAC962B0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Somewhat related to this is the proposal by Dr. Akito Takahashi that = deuterium atoms can form Boes Einstein Condensates which are = electrically neutral but physically small and are thus able to penetrate = the Coulomb Barrier and enter nuclei, producing transmutation. Such = thinking is one reason for the formation of the International Society of = Condensed Matter Nuclear Science (ISCMNS) which is the umbrella = professional organization for CF/LENR/CANR. This model provides an = approach to the macroscopic transmutations reported by Iwamura at = Mitsubishi Heavy Industries in Japan.=20 Mike Carrell=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Nick Palmer=20 To: Vortex-L=20 Sent: Sunday, January 16, 2005 10:21 AM Subject: Clusters This tells how clusters of atoms can behave like super atoms of = another element. It seemed like it might be relevant to explaining = LENR-CANR to me... http://www.physorg.com/news2672.html ------=_NextPart_000_0047_01C4FBDE.FAC962B0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Somewhat related to this is the = proposal by Dr.=20 Akito Takahashi that deuterium atoms can form Boes Einstein Condensates = which=20 are electrically neutral but physically small and are thus able to = penetrate the=20 Coulomb Barrier and enter nuclei, producing transmutation. Such thinking = is one=20 reason for the formation of the International Society of Condensed = Matter=20 Nuclear Science (ISCMNS) which is the umbrella professional organization = for=20 CF/LENR/CANR. This model provides an approach to the macroscopic=20 transmutations reported by Iwamura at Mitsubishi Heavy Industries in = Japan.=20
 
Mike Carrell 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Nick=20 Palmer
Sent: Sunday, January 16, 2005 = 10:21=20 AM
Subject: Clusters

This tells how clusters of atoms can = behave like=20 super atoms of another element. It seemed like it might be relevant to = explaining LENR-CANR to me...
 
http://www.physorg.com/news= 2672.html
------=_NextPart_000_0047_01C4FBDE.FAC962B0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 16 18:43:35 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0H2hNrd005775; Sun, 16 Jan 2005 18:43:23 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0H2hMQv005769; Sun, 16 Jan 2005 18:43:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 18:43:22 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Clusters Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 21:43:30 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.20050116213300.006b8cc0 pop.freeserve.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57398 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hey Frank, The general idea was that when you dissolve a metal like Au in acid, the disaggregation of the metal becomes increasingly difficult as the particle size gets smaller and smaller, always stopping at a point before the individual atoms. He claimed to be able to process Au into the form of a pile of monoatoms, by means of a complex set of wet chemical operations. He also claimed that the monoatomic form existed in nature; in fact some of what would be considered mining waste was in fact Au in this form. Dave published a list of materials he tested and claimed had high concentrations of the material, animal brain tissue comes to mind as very high percentage. You should get his UK patent GB2219995 for more information. He holds no US patent, but variations of GB2219995 appear in 15 other countries. Needless to say, that "getting" process can be facilitated by getting yourself a copy of this thing http://www.ipdiscover.com A sizeable religious cult grew up around Dave sometime in the early 90's, I'm sure some of our more -cough-faith-based-cough- list members will be happy to fill you in on that aspect of the story. Nick Reiter published some material on Vo. not long ago concerning his attempts at replicating the patent, his results were inconclusive. Others have claimed positive results, not on this forum. K. -----Original Message----- From: Grimer [mailto:f.grimer grimer2.freeserve.co.uk] Sent: Sunday, January 16, 2005 4:33 PM To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: RE: Clusters At 02:26 pm 16-01-05 -0500, Keith wrote: > I would be remiss in not mentioning that old coyote David Hudson; he > was a big proponent of cluster based chemistry and claimed to have > some success ( although he sort of turns the notion on it's head > and claims ALL materials are cluster like and the rare form is > the monatom ) doing chemical operations to achieve the result. > If you can send me a copy of the Science article I'd be most > appreciative. > K. I'm interested to read what you say about "that old coyote David Hudson". Not only do I think he's generally correct but I would go further and say that all [What all? - Well, nearly all. ;-) ] materials are composed of a hierarchy of self similar clusters which is why, of course, they exhibit power law relations between various measures of strength and density for example. In fact I wrote an Internal Note on this at RRL in the early 60s. I'll have to get down to the job of OCRing it and putting it on the Beta-atmosphere Yahoo site. I believe that clusters are also relevant to the success Mizuno has with his sintered specimens (page 73-74 of Jed's translation). I think he was a bit of a chicken not to do the kamikaze and let the specimens blow up the lab. Politicians will never be convinced by calorimetry, but blow up a city block or two and they will sit up and take notice. 8-) Cheers Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 16 19:20:02 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0H3JtZO000676; Sun, 16 Jan 2005 19:19:55 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0H3JrFx000659; Sun, 16 Jan 2005 19:19:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 19:19:53 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 22:18:08 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: Whats new continue In-reply-to: <002401c4fc24$57ded4e0$0100007f xptower> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_Ks740YpyPhAsB5p4DbYUwg)" User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57399 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --Boundary_(ID_Ks740YpyPhAsB5p4DbYUwg) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT RC Macaulay at walhalla cvtv.net wrote: Creationism vs. Darwinism.. My simple mind looks at a 3 dollar wind up pocket watch ( Mickey Mouse type preferred) and a yardstick and ponders. If I wind up the watch and as it runs I witness the beginning of a measure of time.. or ..did time exist before I started the watch? Next. I have a ladder that has legs that can extend to infinite height. Taking the yard stick , I began measuring height by the yard . How long would it take me to measure to the "top" ? If the watch never stops.. regardless of how much time elapses, that interval will NEVER equal the amount of time that had passed BEFORE the watch was started. Same for the yardstick. Regardless of how much "height" is measured. it will NEVER equal the distance below the point at which you began measuring. As idiotic as this post reads, it makes a point. That being you can theorize evolution vs creationalism forever and still miss the evidence staring you in the face. Time is... length is. explain its origin. Richard Perhaps they have no origin, in the same way as Mr. Big has no origin. Perhaps time and space are just qualities of Mr. Big. Harry --Boundary_(ID_Ks740YpyPhAsB5p4DbYUwg) Content-type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Re: Whats new continue RC Macaulay at walhalla cvtv.net wrote:

Creationism vs. Darwinism..
My simple mind looks at a 3 dollar wind up pocket watch ( Mickey Mouse type preferred) and a yardstick and ponders.
If I wind up the watch and as it runs I witness the beginning of a measure of time.. or ..did time exist before I started the watch?
Next. I have a ladder that has legs that can  extend to infinite height. Taking the yard stick , I began measuring height by the yard . How long would it take me to measure to the "top" ?
If the watch never stops.. regardless of how much time  elapses, that interval will NEVER equal the amount of time that had passed BEFORE the watch was started. Same for the yardstick. Regardless of how much "height" is measured. it will NEVER equal the distance below the point at which you began measuring.
As idiotic as this post reads, it makes a point. That being you can theorize evolution vs creationalism forever and still miss the evidence staring you in the face.
Time is... length is. explain its origin.
Richard



Perhaps they have no origin, in the same way as Mr. Big has no origin.
Perhaps time and space are just qualities of Mr. Big.

Harry --Boundary_(ID_Ks740YpyPhAsB5p4DbYUwg)-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 16 20:04:51 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0H44h1i024500; Sun, 16 Jan 2005 20:04:43 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0H44fTp024486; Sun, 16 Jan 2005 20:04:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 20:04:41 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001501c4fc49$a9bb19c0$0100007f xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: whats new continue Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 22:04:37 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0011_01C4FC17.5EA05630"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.5 required=4.0 tests=HTML_40_50,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57400 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C4FC17.5EA05630 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0012_01C4FC17.5EA05630" ------=_NextPart_001_0012_01C4FC17.5EA05630 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankNot so fast Harry,, when challenged by the intellectual = Darwainians, their challenge in itself presupposes they can prove = evolution.=20 Evidence of changes ,are of in itself, no proof. My question is simple.... explain the origin of time and distance. Mr = big discounted as an unresponsive answer. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0012_01C4FC17.5EA05630 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Not so fast Harry,, when challenged by the = intellectual=20 Darwainians, their challenge in itself presupposes they can prove = evolution.=20
Evidence of changes ,are of in itself, no=20 proof.
My question is simple.... explain the origin = of time and=20 distance. Mr big discounted as an unresponsive answer.
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_0012_01C4FC17.5EA05630-- ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C4FC17.5EA05630 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <001001c4fc49$a9393f90$0100007f xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C4FC17.5EA05630-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 16 23:20:46 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0H7Khup014007; Sun, 16 Jan 2005 23:20:43 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0H7KfoG014000; Sun, 16 Jan 2005 23:20:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 23:20:41 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: "explorecraft" To: "vortex-l" Subject: RE: More on Crookes radiometer Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 15:19:46 +0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <410-22005151411320110 earthlink.net> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Importance: Normal X-PopBeforeSMTPSenders: libertarian explorecraft.com,pariah@explorecraft.com,techqc@explorecraft.com,teknik@explorecraft.com X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - husky.switchfusion.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - eskimo.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - explorecraft.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57401 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Frederick Sparber [mailto:fjsparber earthlink.net] Sent: 2005 January 14 Fri 18:03 >--X--< This can be demonstrated with salt or sand sprinkled on a radio speaker laid horizontal while you're listening to rock "music". :-) >--X--< Surely you meant "rock" music ? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 17 00:37:08 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0H8axoh014683; Mon, 17 Jan 2005 00:36:59 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0H8avA7014674; Mon, 17 Jan 2005 00:36:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 00:36:57 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 03:35:44 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: whats new continue In-reply-to: <001501c4fc49$a9bb19c0$0100007f xptower> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_0EYaqprGyI/srJmrGp6Bng)" User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57402 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --Boundary_(ID_0EYaqprGyI/srJmrGp6Bng) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT If my answer is unresponsive, does that mean only certain answers are permitted like in the riddle you posed about the two Indian tribes? Harry RC Macaulay at walhalla cvtv.net wrote: Not so fast Harry,, when challenged by the intellectual Darwainians, their challenge in itself presupposes they can prove evolution. Evidence of changes ,are of in itself, no proof. My question is simple.... explain the origin of time and distance. Mr big discounted as an unresponsive answer. Richard --Boundary_(ID_0EYaqprGyI/srJmrGp6Bng) Content-type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Re: whats new continue If my answer is unresponsive, does that mean only certain answers
are permitted like in the riddle you posed about the two Indian tribes?

Harry


RC Macaulay at walhalla cvtv.net wrote:

Not so fast Harry,, when challenged by the intellectual Darwainians, their challenge in itself presupposes they can prove evolution.
Evidence of changes ,are of in itself, no proof.
My question is simple.... explain the origin of time and distance. Mr big discounted as an unresponsive answer.
Richard

--Boundary_(ID_0EYaqprGyI/srJmrGp6Bng)-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 17 05:57:11 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0HDv7mf016833; Mon, 17 Jan 2005 05:57:08 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0HDtiNx016284; Mon, 17 Jan 2005 05:55:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 05:55:44 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <5.1.1.6.1.20050117131932.00a61d00 pop3.newnet.co.uk> X-Sender: lawrence pop3.newnet.co.uk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1.1 Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 13:26:24 +0000 To: "vortex-l eskimo.com" From: "Stephen R. Lawrence" Subject: Photo-sucreic cell? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57403 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear All, Is plant photosynthesis as good as it gets? We create biofuels using nature's own processes - but don't these come with a lot of unnecessary add-ons - ie the plant bit?? Would it not be possible to create a "photo-sucreic cell" - to produce sucrose - or a "photo-oleic cell" - to produce hydrocarbons DIRECT without having to process the seeds/plant solutions, etc? This would have the advantage that you wouldn't need good soil, just the sun bit. We go to so much trouble to create the photo-voltaic cell only to have no decent method of storing the energy so captured. From: Stephen Lawrence, 8 Supanee Court, French's Road, Cambridge, England, CB4 3LB. Tel/Fax +44 1223 564373 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 17 06:02:33 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0HE2RHK008963; Mon, 17 Jan 2005 06:02:27 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0HE15Rj008612; Mon, 17 Jan 2005 06:01:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 06:01:05 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: <416d305d-b76d-4921-a70a-1aab0bec1747> Message-ID: <008c01c4fc9c$f0a1f4a0$9a7bccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: Subject: Re: ionizing radiation Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 09:00:36 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57404 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Tom wrote: > I did a remodeling project on what once was a medical clinic. When we > cut into the walls, there were sheets of lead in them. Lead would be used to stop Xrays, nothing more. > > I am interested in stopping EMF, in particular short wave X rays and > possibly shorter wave EMF. Check your numbers. The only thing shorter than Xrays are gamma rays emitted by radioactive substances and accelerators. If I put it into a grounded metal, or > metal screen box, would that stop it? I assume that the holes in the > screen would have to be smaller than the size of the waves? As a first rule of thumb, YES. But EM radiation will leak out of a box like water or a gas weakly. There is a whole discipline that goes under the code name TEMPEST concerning radiation security, preventing bad guys from reading what is going on in your little electronic box. >What if I > had electrical conductors, coming out of the Faraday Cage, would the > short wave EMF be conducted with them? Would a transformer stop them? You bet. They are antennas, as are any gaps in the shielding of the box. Transformers only stop DC and can be transparent to everything else. > > There was a man who was interviewed on C to C AM last week. He talked > about cell phones. Basically his message was don't use them. Even in > stand by mode, they still hand shake with the nearest tower and in > the process irradiate you. The man is misguided. A cell phone when on and in stanby will listen to the nearest cell phoone tower, comparing its address with the last address received. When you turn it on, it will transmit a burst, reporting in, so the system knows where your phone is. Your phone then goes passive, just listening until you take it to another tower's cell; it will transmit another burst, reporting in, etc. Think logically. Your phone will not waste battery power transmitting all the time, nor do the towers want hundreds of phones all yacking at it needlessly. >Then there are the towers, he said that > you don't want to be within 500 feet of one. Utter nonsense. The individual transmitters have a power of about 7.5 watts, equal to a christmas tree light bulb. The are up high so they can be 'seen' froma distance and the antennas are designed to emit most of their energy as a narrow horizontal fan so as to reach as far as possible. Nearby at ground level you get only the feeble leakage from the antennas. They are so safe that the FCC does not require site surveys or licensing in setting up cell towers. I used the ear jack when > I made phone calls, but apparently the EMF follows the wires into the > ear jack. If his story is correct, over population will not be a > problem for much longer. His story is not correct, it is grossly exaggerated and misleading. There are some allegations that holding a cell phone to your ear places the antenna next to your brain and its radiation may affect brain tissue. Years ago there was a suit by a man (or his widow) alleging that the cell phone initiated a brain cancer at that spot. If this were generally true, there would be a worldwide epidemic of brain cancer by now. Think logically. People may choose to go hands-free, with a ear bud, and tiny microphone pod, and the cell phone in their pocket, and walk around talking to the air. The cell phone antenna can then irradiate your leg instead of your brain. With the above caveats, long term use of a transmitter next to your head is probably not a great idea, but any bad effects are very hard to quantify. There were similar concerns about living near high voltage transmission lines. There were some stories about clusters of disease, including cancers, near high voltage lines. The clusters were there, but evidence linking them to the high voltage fields and not some other environmental cause was lacking. Some years ago, Verizon wnated to erect a cell tower at the local police station. I attended some of the meetings. A woman was all distressed about irradiation of her house because she had read one of the idiot books. She was oblivious to the antenna of a 50 kW AM radio station a mile or so away, which has houses all around it for decades. Its signal is so strong I had to put filters on the telephone lines and my computer modem to avoid inteference. I get 25 mV of that transmitter on any stub of wire in the house. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 17 09:00:25 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0HH0Kmf026558; Mon, 17 Jan 2005 09:00:20 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0HH0I0i026551; Mon, 17 Jan 2005 09:00:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 09:00:18 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <005c01c4fcb5$5c124d80$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <5.1.1.6.1.20050117131932.00a61d00 pop3.newnet.co.uk> Subject: Re: Photo-sucreic cell? Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 08:55:31 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57405 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Stephen, > Is plant photosynthesis as good as it gets? We create biofuels using nature's own processes - but don't these come with a lot of unnecessary add-ons - ie the plant bit?? http://pmb.berkeley.edu/profiles/newProfiles/melis.html From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 17 09:26:17 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0HHQCmf000947; Mon, 17 Jan 2005 09:26:12 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0HHQBw0000933; Mon, 17 Jan 2005 09:26:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 09:26:11 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002a01c4fcb9$9d3e1f60$0100007f xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: Whats new continue Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 11:26:00 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0026_01C4FC87.5221D530"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.5 required=4.0 tests=HTML_40_50,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57406 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0026_01C4FC87.5221D530 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0027_01C4FC87.5221D530" ------=_NextPart_001_0027_01C4FC87.5221D530 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankGosh !! Harry , Were I soliciting a simple answer to my riddle = regarding red feet vs green feet, I would have posed the question part = as ..if you could determine if they were ( lying or telling the truth) = to ......................if they were green feet or red feet. This group is swift, thats what makes it enjoyable. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0027_01C4FC87.5221D530 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Gosh !! Harry , Were I soliciting a simple = answer to my=20 riddle regarding red feet vs green feet, I would have posed the question = part as=20 ..if you could determine if they were ( lying or telling the truth) to=20 ......................if they were green feet or red feet.
 
This group is swift, thats what makes it=20 enjoyable.
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_0027_01C4FC87.5221D530-- ------=_NextPart_000_0026_01C4FC87.5221D530 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <002501c4fcb9$9cb62ab0$0100007f xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0026_01C4FC87.5221D530-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 17 10:57:37 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0HIvRHK022999; Mon, 17 Jan 2005 10:57:28 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0HIvO5l022986; Mon, 17 Jan 2005 10:57:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 10:57:24 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 13:55:40 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: Photo-sucreic cell? In-reply-to: <005c01c4fcb5$5c124d80$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57407 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The "green economy" could be more than a cliche! Harry Jones Beene at jonesb9 pacbell.net wrote: > Stephen, > >> Is plant photosynthesis as good as it gets? We create > biofuels using nature's own processes - but don't these > come with a lot of unnecessary add-ons - ie the plant bit?? > > > http://pmb.berkeley.edu/profiles/newProfiles/melis.html > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 17 11:08:50 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0HJ8cHK026098; Mon, 17 Jan 2005 11:08:39 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0HJ8bIr026076; Mon, 17 Jan 2005 11:08:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 11:08:37 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: whats new continue Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 14:08:56 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-reply-to: <001501c4fc49$a9bb19c0$0100007f xptower> Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57408 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi RC Richard writes: >Mr big discounted as an unresponsive answer. Wow, I couldn't have put that more succinctly myself. So can we assume that you've given up on the creationist notion? (grin) Mind you, I'm not asking if you accept Darwins theories. Just whether you agree with your own statement that Mr Big is a non-answer to the question of the creation of the universe. K. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 17 11:30:05 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0HJTeHK031302; Mon, 17 Jan 2005 11:29:44 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0HJTcW1031293; Mon, 17 Jan 2005 11:29:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 11:29:38 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Photo-sucreic cell? Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 14:30:01 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-reply-to: <005c01c4fcb5$5c124d80$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57409 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: It's a great opportunity for the budding genomic engineer. Like this guy for example. http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/10.12/supermicrobe.html I've thought this to be a great application of biotech, it's gratifying to see that I'm not alone in this belief. Sure, we could wait a few score years and forcibly evolve a bacteria to do this, but why wait? K. -----Original Message----- From: Jones Beene [mailto:jonesb9 pacbell.net] Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 11:56 AM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Photo-sucreic cell? Stephen, > Is plant photosynthesis as good as it gets? We create biofuels using nature's own processes - but don't these come with a lot of unnecessary add-ons - ie the plant bit?? http://pmb.berkeley.edu/profiles/newProfiles/melis.html From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 17 11:30:08 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0HJTsHK031404; Mon, 17 Jan 2005 11:29:54 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0HJTqrJ031376; Mon, 17 Jan 2005 11:29:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 11:29:52 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050117142706.029eb408 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 14:29:50 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: New papers responding to DoE Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57410 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Here are two new papers by Storms written in response to the 2004 DoE Review: http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/StormsEaresponset.pdf http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/StormsEtheusgover.pdf Here is an important old paper by Kunimatsu: http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/KunimatsuKdeuteriuml.pdf Coming soon: a new "Special Collection" page with many papers relating to the DoE Report. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 17 12:44:57 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0HKidHK017274; Mon, 17 Jan 2005 12:44:43 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0HKiYD5017241; Mon, 17 Jan 2005 12:44:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 12:44:34 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 15:43:22 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: whats new continue In-reply-to: To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57411 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The answer I supplied challenges the question. The question is leading to use a legal term. An origin question presumes the subject in question must have an origin. Contemporary science and creationists tend to organise themselves so as to provide answers to such "inescapable" questions. Creationists will continue to annoy scientists until science begins to question the question. Contemporary science lacks vigour because it has become consumed by the question of origin. Harry Keith Nagel at knagel gis.net wrote: > Hi RC > > Richard writes: >> Mr big discounted as an unresponsive answer. > > Wow, I couldn't have put that more succinctly myself. > > So can we assume that you've given up on the creationist notion? (grin) > > Mind you, I'm not asking if you accept Darwins theories. Just whether > you agree with your own statement that Mr Big is a non-answer to > the question of the creation of the universe. > > K. > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 17 13:26:56 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0HLQmmf028889; Mon, 17 Jan 2005 13:26:48 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0HLQkSu028865; Mon, 17 Jan 2005 13:26:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 13:26:46 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=lJYv4K8CXRbCHIgeK75Tf+pq2PO7+QTkPRW2UzZ0y+F9iU3tPehgqJjnWBvKRXoo; Message-ID: <410-220051117202634770 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Ancient Alchemy Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 14:26:34 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940155f90b6a88eda4d1cdb5f250e72f3d9350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.165.63 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57412 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Michael Foster wrote: > > That's pretty interesting Frederick. However, ammonia was made hundreds, if not thousands > of years before 1782. It used to be called spirits of hartshorn and has been know in Celtic > and Gothic Europe since prehistory. > Sure Michael, naturally occurring urease enzymes will hydrolyze the urea in urine/manures from man or beast (them ain't smelling salts) releasing ammonia (NH3) + CO2: H2O + NH2-CO-NH3 -----> CO2 + 2 NH3 In the old days the local outhouses and bat "guano" even furnished the nitrates NH4NO2/3, NaNO2/3 and/or KNO2/3 used in gunpowder, which was employed when folks got pissed off. Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

Michael Foster wrote:
>
> That's pretty interesting Frederick.  However, ammonia was made hundreds, if not thousands
> of years before 1782.  It used to be called spirits of hartshorn and has been know in Celtic
> and Gothic Europe since prehistory.
>
Sure Michael, naturally occurring urease enzymes will hydrolyze the urea in urine/manures
from man or beast (them ain't smelling salts) releasing ammonia (NH3) + CO2:
 
H2O + NH2-CO-NH3 -----> CO2 + 2 NH3
 
In the old days the local outhouses  and bat "guano" even furnished the nitrates NH4NO2/3,
NaNO2/3 and/or KNO2/3  used in gunpowder, which was employed when folks
got pissed off. 
 
Frederick
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 17 14:05:07 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0HM4nmf005806; Mon, 17 Jan 2005 14:04:49 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0HM4iGF005752; Mon, 17 Jan 2005 14:04:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 14:04:44 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=hJqLB3M/UtlNbxaC/7AhxkxPTnq6n3XLt+kHvL4DoNgKcD0P3MdlH0MRJsDrfR6sDGJ+Iy9dJd46/x4g/s8uwF0maQt4mEuk08WwBGX9+vJ/vOiBz0npjegt8fwM2McUmO88Xs0HBGbb4JNI7pMk19Q3VT6IjgYeWim9TVOsiEk= Message-ID: <35765371050117140471edb360 mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 23:04:34 +0100 From: David Jonsson Reply-To: David Jonsson To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: I am back with wavedrag reduction! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57413 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I have been off since 2002 when my old email address david bahnhof.se expired. Now I am back with this 1 GB big mailbox so I think I can manage the flow of emails. My current focus is cancellation of airdrag, specifically wavedrag. Input on that topic is welcome. I will go down working parttime for 4 months so that I can work with wavedrag reduction. David From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 17 14:13:26 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0HMDFHK005947; Mon, 17 Jan 2005 14:13:19 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0HMDDMx005935; Mon, 17 Jan 2005 14:13:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 14:13:13 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=nF30A+oKaI3VF8DsHBklD/H2su8tXBI8IhLRBrYeGnkCWt96k6LIX9j90nT2xKGQ; Message-ID: <411-22005111721132680 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Electronium-Lite Production & Proton-Electron Interaction Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 15:13:02 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_94915C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940c7a4b4dca321eb85e370977267254c23350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.87.122 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57414 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_94915C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Jones. I don't think anyone would get bent out of shape if the Feynman Diagram energies of photon-proton or electron-proton interaction created light lepton pairs with energy/mass as low as a few ev. Thus a low energy coupled pair analogous to positronium (*PS) or electronium (*e-) or electronium-lite (**e-) could allow the Hydrino orbit. IOW. Positronium-Lite (*Ps) although charge-neutral (still developing a magnetic moment) could allow some interesting Proton-(*Ps)-Electron interactions. http://musr.physics.ubc.ca/~jess/p200/emc2/node9.html "The main point here is that the incoming particle(s) [ or e-] must have at least 1.022 MeV of kinetic energy to create a positron and an electron, both of which have rest masses of 0.511 MeV/c2." A reasonable generality for the establishment. But how about Near-UV to EUV photons, and/or low energy collisions? Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

Jones.
 
I don't think anyone would get bent out of shape if the Feynman Diagram energies
of photon-proton or electron-proton interaction created light lepton pairs with energy/mass
as low as a few ev.
 
Thus a low energy coupled pair analogous to positronium (*PS) or electronium (*e-)
or electronium-lite (**e-) could allow the Hydrino orbit.
 
IOW. Positronium-Lite (*Ps) although charge-neutral (still developing a magnetic moment)
could allow some interesting Proton-(*Ps)-Electron interactions.
 
 
 
"The main point here is that the incoming particle(s) [$\gamma$ or e-] must have at least 1.022 MeV of kinetic energy to create a positron and an electron, both of which have rest masses of 0.511 MeV/c2."
 
A reasonable generality for the establishment. But how about Near-UV to EUV photons,  and/or low energy
collisions?
 
Frederick
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- ------=_NextPart_94915C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: image/gif; name="img21.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Description: img21.gif Content-Id: <410-2200511172112599901 13071999> R0lGODlhDQAcAOMAAAAAAJmZmXd3d+7u7jMzM8zMzBEREaqqqoiIiGZmZv///0RERN3d3bu7uwAA AAAAACH5BAEAAAoALAAAAAANABwAQAQ5UMlJayGtJaFEqdOBgGRplsJ4ruzQsJIQfCYH33iun4EB LAPFwBYLxhhEkiCxEhhLg8Wq8dxZr6cIADs= ------=_NextPart_94915C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 17 14:43:41 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0HMhUHK013744; Mon, 17 Jan 2005 14:43:31 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0HMhSqV013720; Mon, 17 Jan 2005 14:43:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 14:43:28 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=Gq20lydXy/x/kKNQ59eWgv+jKX/WzBe52uvF4fwdNhXZnbxlPqhzGJpklcbXIFLZ; Message-ID: <410-220051117214316540 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Bohr's Principle of Complementarity Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 15:43:16 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9403beee234b93c9641f7e2cf599d0f6f54350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.87.175 Resent-Message-ID: <1U19TC.A.UWD.Q-D7BB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57415 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII "Alone in the Woods" http://www.upscale.utoronto.ca/GeneralInterest/Harrison/Complementarity/CompCopen.html "Richard Feynman stated that he never understood Quantum Mechanics. Certainly the author of this document does not understand Quantum Mechanics. This may be because Quantum Mechanics is not understandable, at least in the usual sense of the meaning of the word understandable." ........................................................................................................................................................................................ "The question was raised: "If a man alone in the woods speaks, and his wife cannot hear him, is he still wrong?" I have considered this question in light of the principles of Modern Physics and offer my thesis, dedicated to my wife, who anchors me in reality. In the year 1900 Max Planck discovered that the energy of light is quantified. In 1905 Albert Einstein used Planck's Constant to write the theory of the Photoelectric Effect, that light behaves as a particle when it comes to energy transfer. Louis de Broglie proposed that particles can have a wave nature and this fact was later verified. These discoveries led Neils Bohr to propose a radical theory of the atom, which was partially successful in explaining the emission spectra of the hydrogen atom. Neils Bohr was compelled to introduce the Principle of "Complementarity," that light is both a particle and a wave. The modern theories were extended when Max Born showed that the distribution of energy was a function of probability. Further, Warner Heisenberg wrote the Principle of Uncertainty, which says that it is impossible to determine the exact location of an electron and the vector direction of its momentum at the same time. This was followed with the master stroke penned by Erwin Schrodinger. Using the "Psi function" of Quantum Mechanics, Schrodinger could map the "wave field" of any particle, thus giving us a theoretical explanation for the structure of an atom and the entire periodic table of the elements. The Quantum mechanics predicts that a wave of a single frequency would stretch out to infinite proportions, the superposition of a narrow range of frequencies produces a standing wave function which can be localized to a much more precise location. Thus the electron and its position within an atom becomes a cloud of probability. >From this I infer that there are such states as being right and being wrong, within certain parameters of uncertainty. Applying the Psi function, the more vague the statement of the man the greater the probability of him being correct. The narrower and more specific his utterance the greater the likelihood of his being wrong. Also, the Principle of Complementarity assures us that if a man alone in the woods speaks, and his wife can not hear him, he is BOTH right and wrong until he comes out of the woods. In the analogy of Schrodinger's Cat, the cat in the box is both dead and alive until someone opens the lid. The act of observing the phenomenon determines the outcome. Thus, the inevitable conclusion is that it doesn't matter what the man says only his wife can determine whether or not he is correct." Does this make sense? :-) Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

http://www.upscale.utoronto.ca/GeneralInterest/Harrison/Complementarity/CompCopen.html

"Richard Feynman stated that he never understood Quantum Mechanics. Certainly the author of this document does not understand Quantum Mechanics. This may be because Quantum Mechanics is not understandable, at least in the usual sense of the meaning of the word understandable."

........................................................................................................................................................................................

"The question was raised: "If a man alone in the woods speaks, and his wife cannot hear him, is he still wrong?"

I have considered this question in light of the principles of Modern Physics and offer my thesis, dedicated to my wife, who anchors me in reality.

In the year 1900 Max Planck discovered that the energy of light is quantified. In 1905 Albert Einstein used Planck's Constant to write the theory of the Photoelectric Effect, that light behaves as a particle when it comes to energy transfer. Louis de Broglie proposed that particles can have a wave nature and this fact was later verified.

These discoveries led Neils Bohr to propose a radical theory of the atom, which was partially successful in explaining the emission spectra of the hydrogen atom. Neils Bohr was compelled to introduce the Principle of "Complementarity," that light is both a particle and a wave.

The modern theories were extended when Max Born showed that the distribution of energy was a function of probability. Further, Warner Heisenberg wrote the Principle of Uncertainty, which says that it is impossible to determine the exact location of an electron and the vector direction of its momentum at the same time.

This was followed with the master stroke penned by Erwin Schrodinger. Using the "Psi function" of Quantum Mechanics, Schrodinger could map the "wave field" of any particle, thus giving us a theoretical explanation for the structure of an atom and the entire periodic table of the elements.

The Quantum mechanics predicts that a wave of a single frequency would stretch out to infinite proportions, the superposition of a narrow range of frequencies produces a standing wave function which can be localized to a much more precise location. Thus the electron and its position within an atom becomes a cloud of probability.

From this I infer that there are such states as being right and being wrong, within certain parameters of uncertainty. Applying the Psi function, the more vague the statement of the man the greater the probability of him being correct. The narrower and more specific his utterance the greater the likelihood of his being wrong.

Also, the Principle of Complementarity assures us that if a man alone in the woods speaks, and his wife can not hear him, he is BOTH right and wrong until he comes out of the woods.

In the analogy of Schrodinger's Cat, the cat in the box is both dead and alive until someone opens the lid. The act of observing the phenomenon determines the outcome.

Thus, the inevitable conclusion is that it doesn't matter what the man says only his wife can determine whether or not he is correct."

Does this make sense?  :-)

Frederick

 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 17 15:09:48 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0HN9cHK020491; Mon, 17 Jan 2005 15:09:39 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0HN9bW2020482; Mon, 17 Jan 2005 15:09:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 15:09:37 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050117230717.006b7d40 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 23:07:17 +0000 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: RE: Clusters Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57416 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 09:43 pm 16-01-05 -0500, Keith wrote: >Hey Frank, > >The general idea was that when you dissolve a metal like >Au in acid, the disaggregation of the metal becomes increasingly >difficult as the particle size gets smaller and smaller, always stopping >at a point before the individual atoms. It would be interesting to see if one could disaggregate water by instant freezing a fine mist and separating out the various size fractions to see how they differed in physical properties. I used a sieving technique with clay cement mixtures many year ago and it resulted in an interesting research paper which made a good talking point when I faced my promotion board. Needless to say they didn't know anything about the subject. That's the advantage of working at the coal face. 8-) Cheers Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 17 15:25:18 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0HNPAPc024816; Mon, 17 Jan 2005 15:25:10 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0HNP8IJ024797; Mon, 17 Jan 2005 15:25:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 15:25:08 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050117232246.006abfa8 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 23:22:46 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: ionizing radiation Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57417 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 09:00 am 17-01-05 -0500, you wrote: >Tom wrote: > > >> I did a remodeling project on what once was a medical clinic. When we >> cut into the walls, there were sheets of lead in them. > >Lead would be used to stop Xrays, nothing more. Can also be used for reducing sound transmission which depends upon mass. Lead's got plenty. 8-) Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 17 15:45:46 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0HNjYPc030121; Mon, 17 Jan 2005 15:45:39 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0HNjXgO030111; Mon, 17 Jan 2005 15:45:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 15:45:33 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type; b=lTvVBj9fkWQBkcC0s5qeucvs87NkRsoUD69YCCpkOz6rot/W2EOqdCusQD9tmnE2; Message-ID: <410-220051117224521530 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" , "Jones Beene" Subject: Re: Electronium-Lite Production & Proton-Electron Interaction Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 16:45:21 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940b6784d895470a918c675016367f01a08350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.162.200 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57418 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: > > Frederick Sparber writes > > > I don't think anyone would get bent out of shape if the > Feynman Diagram energies of photon-proton or electron-proton > interaction created light lepton pairs with energy/mass as > low as a few ev. > > But they could be very short-lived. > Yes, if they didn't form (*e-) (**e-) or (*Ps-Proton-Electron). Or they could be seen as emission spectra photons if and when they annihilate. > > > Thus a low energy coupled pair analogous to positronium > (*Ps) or electronium (*e-) > > or electronium-lite (**e-) could allow the Hydrino orbit. > > > Which brings up an interesting point on how one might detect > hydrinos in an electrolyte. > Heat when they form? > > Assuming that the tighter orbit would create a drastically > altered magnetic field. If one were to measure the bulk > magnetic field of a potassium electrolyte with a > magnetometer, before and after, a few days of potassium > hydroxide electrolysis, should not there be a drastic change > in the bulk field if lots of hydrinos were being created ? > Possibly. Frederick > Jones > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 17 16:10:24 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0I0AAnp003537; Mon, 17 Jan 2005 16:10:10 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0I0A7Ma003522; Mon, 17 Jan 2005 16:10:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 16:10:07 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=t7CMr9cg620USUt8Z35+FKty75/iH3lsl7ST7tBQwaInrmqtJbLu1w7pRmrxLHiq; Message-ID: <410-22005111723956780 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Electronium-Lite Production & Proton-Electron Interaction Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 17:09:56 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940b7022006d3be0b722434289d4437b051350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.87.31 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57419 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Jones Beene wrote: > Which brings up an interesting point on how one might detect > hydrinos in an electrolyte. > Heat when they form? > > Assuming that the tighter orbit would create a drastically > altered magnetic field. If one were to measure the bulk > magnetic field of a potassium electrolyte with a > magnetometer, before and after, a few days of potassium > hydroxide electrolysis, should not there be a drastic change > in the bulk field if lots of hydrinos were being created ? > Might a proton precession magnetometer do it? http://www.portup.com/~dfount/proton.htm "In a simple proton precession magnetometer, a bottle of fluid rich in hydrogen atoms, usually distilled water or a hydrocarbon such as kerosene or alcohol, is surrounded by a coil of wire which can be energized by a direct current to produce a strong magnetic field. When the current is shut off, the precessing protons induce a very weak signal into the same coil, which is now connected to a suitable output device. This output circuitry may be a frequency counter calibrated to give a direct readout of of magnetic field strength." Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Jones Beene wrote:
 
> Which brings up an interesting point on how one might detect
> hydrinos in an electrolyte.
>
Heat when they form?
>
> Assuming that the tighter orbit would create a drastically
> altered magnetic field. If one were to measure the bulk
> magnetic field of a potassium electrolyte with a
> magnetometer, before and after, a few days of potassium
> hydroxide electrolysis, should not there be a drastic change
> in the bulk field if lots of hydrinos were being created ?
>
Might a  proton precession magnetometer do it?
 
 
 
"In a simple proton precession magnetometer, a bottle of fluid rich in hydrogen atoms, usually distilled water or a hydrocarbon such as kerosene or alcohol, is surrounded by a coil of wire which can be energized by a direct current to produce a strong magnetic field. When the current is shut off, the precessing protons induce a very weak signal into the same coil, which is now connected to a suitable output device. This output circuitry may be a frequency counter calibrated to give a direct readout of of magnetic field strength."
 
Frederick
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 17 18:05:45 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0I25bDO003459; Mon, 17 Jan 2005 18:05:37 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0I25Z0h003439; Mon, 17 Jan 2005 18:05:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 18:05:35 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=jY6kQ7OoF8f5XupSbfVaukQOS+xJZh2iWeGCkPh/KakfkZ/scQC7jUcFFs++fhW3vO1BoXrTqdoRmj2TT3I/B3R2+1oqv3pHrEcEVVltVbvwtfERIs38IExnWVAs3+FYUVSP3IML2BNO/HnWNyjZIZULaloyTzgaIq9GADiAYQ4= Message-ID: Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 19:05:30 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Vehicles need to be insulated In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57420 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: agreed. you still have to HEAT the vehicle. and overnight, even the best insulation is going to cool down over several hours. you simply cant seal a car well enough as for the luxury demand of cooling. bullshiat. i live in arizona. its safer to walk than take a car with no ac on the hotter days. when the car is hot enough inside to bake bread (not kidding, ive done it. very tasty sourdough.) cooling is not a luxury. we have several deaths yearly caused by traffic accidents caused by drivers of vehicles with no ac passing out from heat exhaustion. On Sun, 16 Jan 2005 20:12:46 -0600, thomas malloy wrote: > Horace Heffner posted; > > > > >Cooling may be a luxury, but people in hot climates demand it. Heating on > >the other hand, is a matter of health and safety here in Alaska. It is > >often difficult just to keep the ice off the windshield here > > White man invent gas powered heater and absorption chiller. > > > > >The only way to combat the heating and cooling problem is insulation, which > >is poor to non-existent in most cars. Good thermal insulation also has the > > Insulation only holds heat that is in the vehicle in. > > -- Fairy tales are more than true: not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten. -G.K. Chesterton From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 17 21:29:37 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0I5TPEJ022855; Mon, 17 Jan 2005 21:29:26 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0I5TN66022835; Mon, 17 Jan 2005 21:29:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 21:29:23 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 00:27:47 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: WHAT'S NEW Friday, January 14, 2005 In-reply-to: <026901c4fb74$df3224c0$6601a8c0 msns.flt.ptd.net> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57421 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: revtec wrote: >Harry Veeder > >> If you want to be considered a scientist today, and you imagine >> a different origin of man, you dare not express it or you will be >> branded a simpleton or a quack. > > Are you saying that the scientific establishment allows a scientist to > attend church so long as he/she does not believe the first chapters of the > Bible? Believe it, but don't express it. > I'm thankful that I am not beholden to the scientific community. > They don't sign my pay check and they never will. > > If the first part of the Bible is a fairy tale, then, how far into it does > the truth start? If the first part is a lie, then, the rest can't be > trusted either. The whole thing should be dumped in the trash and one > should sleep in on a Sunday morning. The Bible is either the word of God or > it isn't. It's all or nothing for me. Anything else is hypocritical. Not necessarily. If the bible is the word of God, then the meaning of the bible is almost as mysterious as God. Harry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 17 22:36:58 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0I6apfY028352; Mon, 17 Jan 2005 22:36:52 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0I6aokI028339; Mon, 17 Jan 2005 22:36:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 22:36:50 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 21:45:23 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Vehicles need to be insulated Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57422 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 8:12 PM 1/16/5, thomas malloy wrote: >Horace Heffner posted; > >> >>Cooling may be a luxury, but people in hot climates demand it. Heating on >>the other hand, is a matter of health and safety here in Alaska. It is >>often difficult just to keep the ice off the windshield here > >White man invent gas powered heater and absorption chiller. The objective is energy efficiency. You snipped the relevant part. As fuel efficiency grows, the power requirements of vehicle cooling and heating then begin to loom large. Meeting heating requirements by burning fuel directly instead of using waste heat, to the extent possible, only makes that problem worse. > >> >>The only way to combat the heating and cooling problem is insulation, which >>is poor to non-existent in most cars. Good thermal insulation also has the > >Insulation only holds heat that is in the vehicle in. It would be nice if insulation could really hold the heat in, but it can't even do that. Increased insulation only reduces the *rate* of heat exchange, which is always finite unless ambient temperature = internal temperature. Increased insulation reduces the amount of fuel required to maintain a given delta T, for that delta T which can not be maintained by waste engine heat. As engine horsepower drops, or engine efficiency increases, waste heat drops. A given HVAC heat exchange loss rate has to be made up via burning more fuel whenever the remaining waste heat is insufficient or unable to handle the heating or cooling power requirement. Air conditioning has not to my knowlege ever been produced in cars using waste heat, so 100 percent of AC requirements must be met by buring more fuel. Insulation then always has a direct effect on reducing that fuel requirement. A metal and glass vehicle with no insulation is a giant heat conductor. The glass turns it into a greenhouse in the summer. The greenhouse effect is of little use here in Alaska in the winter though, becuse it is dark or overcast most of the time. Insulation, properly incorporated in a design, can make a car much more comfortable, quite, safe, and fuel efficient. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 17 23:05:25 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0I75Kc5001510; Mon, 17 Jan 2005 23:05:20 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0I75ISM001484; Mon, 17 Jan 2005 23:05:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 23:05:18 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 22:13:58 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Vehicles need to be insulated Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57423 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 7:05 PM 1/17/5, leaking pen wrote: >agreed. you still have to HEAT the vehicle. and overnight, even the >best insulation is going to cool down over several hours. you simply >cant seal a car well enough No one has suggested holding heat overnight. The problem is the HVAC power required to maintain steady state. Small horsepower cars here already can not do an adequate job of heating. It will be worse for hybrids, assuming they are highly energy efficient, which they may not be as marketed here. There is also the cold weather window defogging/deicing problem, which is really a matter of avoiding the requirement to heat the entire car to a fairly high temperature, plus maintain a bothersome draft, in order to be able to see to drive. This can be avoided by high heating just the space between glass layers. > >as for the luxury demand of cooling. > >bullshiat. i live in arizona. its safer to walk than take a car with >no ac on the hotter days. when the car is hot enough inside to bake >bread (not kidding, ive done it. very tasty sourdough.) cooling is >not a luxury. we have several deaths yearly caused by traffic >accidents caused by drivers of vehicles with no ac passing out from >heat exhaustion. Perspective helps! We don't have that problem here. 8^) We do have people driving down the road using an ice scraper on the inside of the windsheild though! Sometimes you see a car going down the road with someone (who must have been in a big hurry!) pearing through a small hole in the ice, scraping away. Visibility can be a serious problem. Only on very rare occasions do people freeze to death in their vehicles here though. An insulated vehicle can help that risk very much by holding heat long enough to get a rescue, and also possibly by being well enough insulated to heat to some degree with body heat. My wife and I have a highly insulated camper that we slept in without heat, in below freezing weather, and even just body heat kept it fairly comfortable overnight. A well insulated vehicle might be kept warm for a week by turning on the motor periodically. I've been stuck waiting for someone for several hours in Tok, Alaska in my car, and it got very cold within 10 minutes after the engine was shut off. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 17 23:09:32 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0I79KWw012937; Mon, 17 Jan 2005 23:09:24 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0I79IUp012923; Mon, 17 Jan 2005 23:09:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 23:09:18 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 02:08:08 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: Vehicles need to be insulated In-reply-to: To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57424 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner at hheffner mtaonline.net wrote: > At 8:12 PM 1/16/5, thomas malloy wrote: >> Horace Heffner posted; >> >>> >>> Cooling may be a luxury, but people in hot climates demand it. Heating on >>> the other hand, is a matter of health and safety here in Alaska. It is >>> often difficult just to keep the ice off the windshield here >> >> White man invent gas powered heater and absorption chiller. > > The objective is energy efficiency. You snipped the relevant part. As > fuel efficiency grows, the power requirements of vehicle cooling and > heating then begin to loom large. Meeting heating requirements by burning > fuel directly instead of using waste heat, to the extent possible, only > makes that problem worse. On a clear hot day would state of the art solar panels on the roof and hood of a car provide enough electricty to run the AC? Harry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 17 23:15:30 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0I7FMF8004084; Mon, 17 Jan 2005 23:15:22 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0I7FLLK004072; Mon, 17 Jan 2005 23:15:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 23:15:21 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <008c01c4fc9c$f0a1f4a0$9a7bccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> References: <008c01c4fc9c$f0a1f4a0$9a7bccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 01:15:47 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: ionizing radiation Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57425 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Tom wrote: and Mike Carrel replied > > >> I did a remodeling project on what once was a medical clinic. When we >> cut into the walls, there were sheets of lead in them. > >Lead would be used to stop Xrays, nothing more. It was a thin layer of lead, would such a layer stop short X rays too? > > >> I am interested in stopping EMF, in particular short wave X rays and >> possibly shorter wave EMF. > >Check your numbers. The only thing shorter than Xrays are gamma rays emitted >by radioactive substances and accelerators. I've seen a chart like that, I'll have to visit the library and look at one. > > If I put it into a grounded metal, or > >As a first rule of thumb, YES. But EM radiation will leak out of a box like >water or a gas weakly. There is a whole discipline that goes under the code >name TEMPEST Thanks for that name. > >What if I >> had electrical conductors, coming out of the Faraday Cage, would the >> short wave EMF be conducted with them? Would a transformer stop them? > >You bet. They are antennas, as are any gaps in the shielding of the box. >Transformers only stop DC and can be transparent to everything else. Is there some way to make a transformer that is opaque to them? > > >> There was a man who was interviewed on C to C AM last week. He talked > > about cell phones. > >The man is misguided. A cell phone when on and in stanby will listen to the >nearest cell phoone tower, comparing its address with the last address >received. When you turn it on, it will transmit a burst, reporting in, so >the system knows where your phone is. Your phone then goes passive, just >listening until you take it to another tower's cell; it will transmit >another burst, reporting in, etc. Think logically. Your phone will not waste >battery power transmitting all the time, nor do the towers want hundreds of >phones all yacking at it needlessly. You don't seem to be concerned about these occasional bursts of radiation, Mike, he disagrees with you > >>Then there are the towers, he said that >> you don't want to be within 500 feet of one. > >Utter nonsense. The individual transmitters have a power of about 7.5 watts, >equal to a christmas tree light bulb. The are up high so they can be 'seen' >froma distance and the antennas are designed to emit most of their energy as >a narrow horizontal fan so as to reach as far as possible. Nearby at ground >level you get only the feeble leakage from the antennas. They are so safe >that the FCC does not require site surveys or licensing in setting up cell >towers. Hum, again the two of you are at variance over this matter. He claims that the side of your head will feel hot from continued cell phone use. IMHO, this not a good sign. He says that the number of brain cancers in the vicinity of the antenna continues to increase. > >I used the ear jack when >> I made phone calls, but apparently the EMF follows the wires into the >> ear jack. If his story is correct, over population will not be a >> problem for much longer. > >His story is not correct, it is grossly exaggerated and misleading. There >are some allegations that holding a cell phone to your ear places the >antenna next to your brain and its radiation may affect brain tissue. Years >ago there was a suit by a man (or his widow) alleging that the cell phone >initiated a brain cancer at that spot. If this were generally true, there >would be a worldwide epidemic of brain cancer by now. He says that the aforementioned epidemic is here, or rather that we are just seeing the tip of the iceberg. >Think logically. >People may choose to go hands-free, with a ear bud, and tiny microphone pod, >and the cell phone in their pocket, and walk around talking to the air. The >cell phone antenna can then irradiate your leg instead of your brain. Hum, good point. > >With the above caveats, long term use of a transmitter next to your head is >probably not a great idea, but any bad effects are very hard to quantify. >There were similar concerns about living near high voltage transmission >lines. There were some stories about clusters of disease, including cancers, >near high voltage lines. The clusters were there, but evidence linking them >to the high voltage fields and not some other environmental cause was >lacking. As I understand it, children living in the first house down from the transformer are at a higher risk than children in subsequent houses. Adults are at a lower risk than children, and fetuses at a higher risk. > >Some years ago, Verizon wnated to erect a cell tower at the local police >station. I attended some of the meetings. A woman was all distressed about >irradiation of her house because she had read one of the idiot books. She >was oblivious to the antenna of a 50 kW AM radio station a mile or so away, >which has houses all around it for decades. Its signal is so strong I had to >put filters on the telephone lines and my computer modem to avoid >inteference. I get 25 mV of that transmitter on any stub of wire in the >house. I think that he would say apples and oranges. The wave length of the cell phone EMF is way shorter than the AM radio waves. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 17 23:59:35 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0I7xRom014413; Mon, 17 Jan 2005 23:59:27 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0I7xO05014383; Mon, 17 Jan 2005 23:59:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 23:59:24 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 23:08:01 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Vehicles need to be insulated Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57426 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 2:08 AM 1/18/5, Harry Veeder wrote: >On a clear hot day would state of the art solar panels on the roof and hood >of a car provide enough electricty to run the AC? Well, if the new supposedly 30 percent efficient solar cells are cost effective, and vehicle insulation much better than now, and glass reflectivity high, yes. Solar insolation is about 1 kw/m^2, so at noon in southern lattitudes you might get .9 kw from 3 m^3. At lower sun angles you get less energy, but may need the A/C less. The cells would have to be located away from the surface of the car however. Those black cells get 30 percent of the energy as electricity, os absorb 70 percent of the heat. It would be ugly! Not a bad idea for a camper maybe. It's a totally losing battle if that extra absorbed heat can get to the vehicle. Better to just have a chrome roof and aluminized but see-through windows. Something that would greatly help though, without any vehicle changes, for parking your car briefly, is mereley a thin highly aluminized sheet thrown over the top of the car. It might help to put elastic edges/straps on it, and/or weight it, and custom fit it for fast use. This would probably only be practical if you or someone made a business out of selling them cheap though, because it might be stolen fairly fast if people realized how much good it did. It's possibly a good business idea, so you're welcome! Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 18 00:08:06 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0I87saf030342; Tue, 18 Jan 2005 00:07:54 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0I87rhK030329; Tue, 18 Jan 2005 00:07:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 00:07:53 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 23:16:19 -0900 To: "vortex-l" From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Bohr's Principle of Complementarity Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57427 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 3:43 PM 1/17/5, Frederick Sparber wrote: >Thus, the inevitable conclusion is that it doesn't matter what the man >says only his wife can determine whether or not he is correct." >Does this make sense? :-) Yes, but she must first make the observation! 8^) Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 18 00:56:02 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0I8tsom026183; Tue, 18 Jan 2005 00:55:54 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0I8trnG026167; Tue, 18 Jan 2005 00:55:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 00:55:53 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050118085327.0069bdcc pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 08:53:27 +0000 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Vehicles need to be insulated Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57428 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Living in the temperate climate of Southern England, I find all these posts about the extreme weather conditions across the US quite fascinating. All the experiences of travel without the hazards and expense. 8-) Cheers Grimer At 07:05 pm 17-01-05 -0700, you wrote: >agreed. you still have to HEAT the vehicle. and overnight, even the >best insulation is going to cool down over several hours. you simply >cant seal a car well enough > >as for the luxury demand of cooling. > >bullshiat. i live in arizona. its safer to walk than take a car with >no ac on the hotter days. when the car is hot enough inside to bake >bread (not kidding, ive done it. very tasty sourdough.) cooling is >not a luxury. we have several deaths yearly caused by traffic >accidents caused by drivers of vehicles with no ac passing out from >heat exhaustion. > > >On Sun, 16 Jan 2005 20:12:46 -0600, thomas malloy > wrote: >> Horace Heffner posted; >> >> > >> >Cooling may be a luxury, but people in hot climates demand it. Heating on >> >the other hand, is a matter of health and safety here in Alaska. It is >> >often difficult just to keep the ice off the windshield here >> >> White man invent gas powered heater and absorption chiller. >> >> > >> >The only way to combat the heating and cooling problem is insulation, which >> >is poor to non-existent in most cars. Good thermal insulation also has the >> >> Insulation only holds heat that is in the vehicle in. >> >> > > >-- >Fairy tales are more than true: not because >they tell us that dragons exist, but because >they tell us that dragons can be beaten. >-G.K. Chesterton > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 18 01:20:56 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0I9Knom030598; Tue, 18 Jan 2005 01:20:49 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0I9Khe7030558; Tue, 18 Jan 2005 01:20:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 01:20:43 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 20:21:17 +1100 Subject: Re: ionizing radiation Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) Cc: Dave D To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Dave D In-Reply-To: <008c01c4fc9c$f0a1f4a0$9a7bccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> Message-Id: <4EAB50CA-6932-11D9-B3C2-000A27913A2A incanberra.com.au> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) X-Server: High Performance Mail Server - http://surgemail.com X-Authenticated-User: dave.davies netspeed.com.au Resent-Message-ID: <8A0Cx.A.ZdH.rTN7BB ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57429 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Tuesday, January 18, 2005, at 01:00 AM, Mike Carrell wrote: > ... If this were generally true, there > would be a worldwide epidemic of brain cancer by now. I think you will find that there is. A few years ago the increase in brain cancers in the US (and presumably other countries) was said to be of epidemic proportions but as far as I am aware that predates the use of mobile phones. dave From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 18 06:01:52 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0IE1dBQ003650; Tue, 18 Jan 2005 06:01:39 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0IE1bXR003644; Tue, 18 Jan 2005 06:01:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 06:01:37 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=EnYswzwGu8tp962S4d4TWERbvkQw+AhPdg4H6V5q7i5O9dKhR4KJ2BMWGL+I8ccj; Message-ID: <410-22005121813117860 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: The Overhauser Effect & Hydrino Detection Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 07:01:17 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94058e780193d8032efe387b929683024b3350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.120.43 Resent-Message-ID: <908qmB.A.44.AbR7BB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57430 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Jones Beene wrote: > > Assuming that the tighter orbit would create a drastically > altered magnetic field. If one were to measure the bulk > magnetic field of a potassium electrolyte with a > magnetometer, before and after, a few days of potassium > hydroxide electrolysis, should not there be a drastic change > in the bulk field if lots of hydrinos were being created ? > Might this do it, Jones? http://www.treasurenet.com/f/index.php/topic,3327.0.html " The Overhauser Effect is an enhancement to the proton precession principle, taking advantage of a quirk of physics that affects the Hydrogen atom. An Overhauser magnetometer uses RF power to excite the electrons of a small amount of specially bonded hydrogen atoms dissolved in the proton precession liquid. This excitation causes the rest of the liquid to become polarized, allowing the production of signal with very little power. Also, since the liquid can be polarized while the signal is being measured, Overhauser magnetometer have a much higher bandwidth and sensitivity than standard proton precession magnetometers. Overhauser magnetometers are without question the most energy efficient magnetometers available with sensitivities suitable for Earth field measurement. Power consumption can be optimized to be as low as 1W for continuous operation, yielding sensitivities between 0.1nT to 0.01nT, and sampling rates as high as 5Hz. Continuous Overhauser magnetometers, like the GSM-11, operates with continuous polarization, and offers sampling rates up to 10Hz, but requires more power to operate." Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

Jones Beene wrote:
 
>
> Assuming that the tighter orbit would create a drastically
> altered magnetic field. If one were to measure the bulk
> magnetic field of a potassium electrolyte with a
> magnetometer, before and after, a few days of potassium
> hydroxide electrolysis, should not there be a drastic change
> in the bulk field if lots of hydrinos were being created ?
>
Might this do it, Jones?
 
 
"  The Overhauser Effect is an enhancement to the proton precession principle, taking advantage of a quirk of physics that affects the Hydrogen atom. An Overhauser magnetometer uses RF power to excite the electrons of a small amount of specially bonded hydrogen atoms dissolved in the proton precession liquid.  This excitation causes the rest of the liquid to become polarized, allowing the production of signal with very little power.  Also, since the liquid can be polarized while the signal is being measured, Overhauser magnetometer have a much higher bandwidth and sensitivity than standard proton precession magnetometers.

   Overhauser magnetometers are without question the most energy efficient magnetometers available with sensitivities suitable for Earth field measurement. Power consumption can be optimized to be as low as 1W for continuous operation, yielding sensitivities between 0.1nT to 0.01nT, and sampling rates as high as 5Hz. Continuous Overhauser magnetometers, like the GSM-11, operates with continuous polarization, and offers sampling rates up to 10Hz, but requires more power to operate."
 
Frederick
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 18 06:58:14 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0IEw4BQ019806; Tue, 18 Jan 2005 06:58:05 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0IEw38H019789; Tue, 18 Jan 2005 06:58:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 06:58:03 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20050118145756.74324.qmail web54509.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 06:57:56 -0800 (PST) From: Merlyn Subject: Re: ionizing radiation To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-310277760-1106060276=:74127" Resent-Message-ID: <1oqlID.A.F1E.7PS7BB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57432 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-310277760-1106060276=:74127 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Note that the strength of EM radiation from a cell phone is highest when it connects to the tower, at the start of a call, incoming or outgoing. I don't recall the precise numbers, but I saw the experiment on 'Mythbusters' when they were dealing with the cell phone / gas station myth. So the highest level of radiation is produced when the phone rings, or when you hit call after dialing the number. In either case the phone is typically nowhere near your head. The reason your head may feel hot after continued cell use is due to the waste heat from the phone. Apples and oranges certainly, but you are comparing 2 apples to about 2000 oranges. AM towers transmit at a much higher power. The EM radiation from the cell transmitter shouldn't travel up the wires for your earpiece. As for cases of brain cancer, maybe you should look to your CRT monitor as the culprit? thomas malloy wrote: >Tom wrote: and Mike Carrel replied > > >> I did a remodeling project on what once was a medical clinic. When we >> cut into the walls, there were sheets of lead in them. > >Lead would be used to stop Xrays, nothing more. It was a thin layer of lead, would such a layer stop short X rays too? > > >> I am interested in stopping EMF, in particular short wave X rays and >> possibly shorter wave EMF. > >Check your numbers. The only thing shorter than Xrays are gamma rays emitted >by radioactive substances and accelerators. I've seen a chart like that, I'll have to visit the library and look at one. > > If I put it into a grounded metal, or > >As a first rule of thumb, YES. But EM radiation will leak out of a box like >water or a gas weakly. There is a whole discipline that goes under the code >name TEMPEST Thanks for that name. > >What if I >> had electrical conductors, coming out of the Faraday Cage, would the >> short wave EMF be conducted with them? Would a transformer stop them? > >You bet. They are antennas, as are any gaps in the shielding of the box. >Transformers only stop DC and can be transparent to everything else. Is there some way to make a transformer that is opaque to them? > > >> There was a man who was interviewed on C to C AM last week. He talked > > about cell phones. > >The man is misguided. A cell phone when on and in stanby will listen to the >nearest cell phoone tower, comparing its address with the last address >received. When you turn it on, it will transmit a burst, reporting in, so >the system knows where your phone is. Your phone then goes passive, just >listening until you take it to another tower's cell; it will transmit >another burst, reporting in, etc. Think logically. Your phone will not waste >battery power transmitting all the time, nor do the towers want hundreds of >phones all yacking at it needlessly. You don't seem to be concerned about these occasional bursts of radiation, Mike, he disagrees with you > >>Then there are the towers, he said that >> you don't want to be within 500 feet of one. > >Utter nonsense. The individual transmitters have a power of about 7.5 watts, >equal to a christmas tree light bulb. The are up high so they can be 'seen' >froma distance and the antennas are designed to emit most of their energy as >a narrow horizontal fan so as to reach as far as possible. Nearby at ground >level you get only the feeble leakage from the antennas. They are so safe >that the FCC does not require site surveys or licensing in setting up cell >towers. Hum, again the two of you are at variance over this matter. He claims that the side of your head will feel hot from continued cell phone use. IMHO, this not a good sign. He says that the number of brain cancers in the vicinity of the antenna continues to increase. > >I used the ear jack when >> I made phone calls, but apparently the EMF follows the wires into the >> ear jack. If his story is correct, over population will not be a >> problem for much longer. > >His story is not correct, it is grossly exaggerated and misleading. There >are some allegations that holding a cell phone to your ear places the >antenna next to your brain and its radiation may affect brain tissue. Years >ago there was a suit by a man (or his widow) alleging that the cell phone >initiated a brain cancer at that spot. If this were generally true, there >would be a worldwide epidemic of brain cancer by now. He says that the aforementioned epidemic is here, or rather that we are just seeing the tip of the iceberg. >Think logically. >People may choose to go hands-free, with a ear bud, and tiny microphone pod, >and the cell phone in their pocket, and walk around talking to the air. The >cell phone antenna can then irradiate your leg instead of your brain. Hum, good point. > >With the above caveats, long term use of a transmitter next to your head is >probably not a great idea, but any bad effects are very hard to quantify. >There were similar concerns about living near high voltage transmission >lines. There were some stories about clusters of disease, including cancers, >near high voltage lines. The clusters were there, but evidence linking them >to the high voltage fields and not some other environmental cause was >lacking. As I understand it, children living in the first house down from the transformer are at a higher risk than children in subsequent houses. Adults are at a lower risk than children, and fetuses at a higher risk. > >Some years ago, Verizon wnated to erect a cell tower at the local police >station. I attended some of the meetings. A woman was all distressed about >irradiation of her house because she had read one of the idiot books. She >was oblivious to the antenna of a 50 kW AM radio station a mile or so away, >which has houses all around it for decades. Its signal is so strong I had to >put filters on the telephone lines and my computer modem to avoid >inteference. I get 25 mV of that transmitter on any stub of wire in the >house. I think that he would say apples and oranges. The wave length of the cell phone EMF is way shorter than the AM radio waves. Merlyn Magickal Engineer and Technical Metaphysicist --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. --0-310277760-1106060276=:74127 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Note that the strength of EM radiation from a cell phone is highest when it connects to the tower, at the start of a call, incoming or outgoing.  I don't recall the precise numbers, but I saw the experiment on 'Mythbusters' when they were dealing with the cell phone / gas station myth.
 
So the highest level of radiation is produced when the phone rings, or when you hit call after dialing the number.  In either case the phone is typically nowhere near your head.
 
The reason your head may feel hot after continued cell use is due to the waste heat from the phone.
 
Apples and oranges certainly, but you are comparing 2 apples to about 2000 oranges.  AM towers transmit at a much higher power.
 
The EM radiation from the cell transmitter shouldn't travel up the wires for your earpiece.
 
As for cases of brain cancer, maybe you should look to your CRT monitor as the culprit?

thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com> wrote:

>Tom wrote:

and Mike Carrel replied

>
>
>> I did a remodeling project on what once was a medical clinic. When we
>> cut into the walls, there were sheets of lead in them.
>
>Lead would be used to stop Xrays, nothing more.

It was a thin layer of lead, would such a layer stop short X rays too?

> >
>> I am interested in stopping EMF, in particular short wave X rays and
>> possibly shorter wave EMF.
>
>Check your numbers. The only thing shorter than Xrays are gamma rays emitted
>by radioactive substances and accelerators.

I've seen a chart like that, I'll have to visit the library and look at one.

>
> If I put it into a grounded metal, or
>
>As a first rule of thumb, YES. But EM radiation will leak out of a box like
>water or a gas weakly. There is a whole discipline that goes under the code
>name TEMPEST

Thanks for that name.

> >What if I
>> had electrical conductors, coming out of the Faraday Cage, would the
>> short wave EMF be conducted with them? Would a transformer stop them?
>
>You bet. They are antennas, as are any gaps in the shielding of the box.
>Transformers only stop DC and can be transparent to everything else.

Is there some way to make a transformer that is opaque to them?

> >
>> There was a man who was interviewed on C to C AM last week. He talked
> > about cell phones.
>
>The man is misguided. A cell phone when on and in stanby will listen to the
>nearest cell phoone tower, comparing its address with the last address
>received. When you turn it on, it will transmit a burst, reporting in, so
>the system knows where your phone is. Your phone then goes passive, just
>listening until you take it to another tower's cell; it will transmit
>another burst, reporting in, etc. Think logically. Your phone will not waste
>battery power transmitting all the time, nor do the towers want hundreds of
>phones all yacking at it needlessly.

You don't seem to be concerned about these occasional bursts of
radiation, Mike, he disagrees with you

>
>>Then there are the towers, he said that
>> you don't want to be within 500 feet of one.
>
>Utter nonsense. The individual transmitters have a power of about 7.5 watts,
>equal to a christmas tree light bulb. The are up high so they can be 'seen'
>froma distance and the antennas are designed to emit most of their energy as
>a narrow horizontal fan so as to reach as far as possible. Nearby at ground
>level you get only the feeble leakage from the antennas. They are so safe
>that the FCC does not require site surveys or licensing in setting up cell
>towers.

Hum, again the two of you are at variance over this matter. He claims
that the side of your head will feel hot from continued cell phone
use. IMHO, this not a good sign. He says that the number of brain
cancers in the vicinity of the antenna continues to increase.

>
>I used the ear jack when
>> I made phone calls, but apparently the EMF follows the wires into the
>> ear jack. If his story is correct, over population will not be a
>> problem for much longer.
>
>His story is not correct, it is grossly exaggerated and misleading. There
>are some allegations that holding a cell phone to your ear places the
>antenna next to your brain and its radiation may affect brain tissue. Years
>ago there was a suit by a man (or his widow) alleging that the cell phone
>initiated a brain cancer at that spot. If this were generally true, there
>would be a worldwide epidemic of brain cancer by now.

He says that the aforementioned epidemic is here, or rather that we
are just seeing the tip of the iceberg.

>Think logically.
>People may choose to go hands-free, with a ear bud, and tiny microphone pod,
>and the cell phone in their pocket, and walk around talking to the air. The
>cell phone antenna can then irradiate your leg instead of your brain.

Hum, good point.

>
>With the above caveats, long term use of a transmitter next to your head is
>probably not a great idea, but any bad effects are very hard to quantify.
>There were similar concerns about living near high voltage transmission
>lines. There were some stories about clusters of disease, including cancers,
>near high voltage lines. The clusters were there, but evidence linking them
>to the high voltage fields and not some other environmental cause was
>lacking.

As I understand it, children living in the first house down from the
transformer are at a higher risk than children in subsequent houses.
Adults are at a lower risk than children, and fetuses at a higher
risk.

>
>Some years ago, Verizon wnated to erect a cell tower at the local police
>station. I attended some of the meetings. A woman was all distressed about
>irradiation of her house because she had read one of the idiot books. She
>was oblivious to the antenna of a 50 kW AM radio station a mile or so away,
>which has houses all around it for decades. Its signal is so strong I had to
>put filters on the telephone lines and my computer modem to avoid
>inteference. I get 25 mV of that transmitter on any stub of wire in the
>house.

I think that he would say apples and oranges. The wave length of the
cell phone EMF is way shorter than the AM radio waves.



Merlyn
Magickal Engineer and Technical Metaphysicist

Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. --0-310277760-1106060276=:74127-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 18 10:09:26 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0II8xBQ003888; Tue, 18 Jan 2005 10:08:59 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0II8sgm003844; Tue, 18 Jan 2005 10:08:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 10:08:54 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 12:09:26 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: Vehicles need to be insulated Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57433 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner posted; > >We do have people driving down the road using an ice scraper on the inside >of the windsheild though! Sometimes you see a car going down the road with >someone (who must have been in a big hurry!) pearing through a small hole >in the ice, scraping away. Visibility can be a serious problem. Only on >very rare occasions do people freeze to death in their vehicles here >though. An insulated vehicle can help that risk very much by holding heat You people need to visit J C Whitney's website and look for a gas powered heater. I'm glad to hear that only a few of you are freezing to death in your cars! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 18 10:24:09 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0IINvBQ010337; Tue, 18 Jan 2005 10:23:58 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0IINt2U010315; Tue, 18 Jan 2005 10:23:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 10:23:55 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20050118145756.74324.qmail web54509.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050118145756.74324.qmail web54509.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 12:24:33 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: ionizing radiation Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="============_-1106049808==_ma============" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57434 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --============_-1106049808==_ma============ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Meryln posted; >Note that the strength of EM radiation from a cell phone is highest >when it connects to the tower, at the start of a call, incoming or >outgoing. I don't recall the precise numbers, but I saw the >experiment on 'Mythbusters' when they were dealing with the cell >phone / gas station myth. I realize that, however that ducks the question about what the effects of the cell phone in transmit mode are. > >The reason your head may feel hot after continued cell use is due to >the waste heat from the phone. Hum, possible, but I doubt it. According to the Interviewee, you can do some kind of brain scan of users and show changes in the area of the brain nearest to the antenna. One of my business associates was trying to make the case that microwave radiation is good, or at least benign, I think he's living in la la land. The biochemist Glen Rein showed that there is a characteristic signature of microwave radiation left on the water. > >Apples and oranges certainly, but you are comparing 2 apples to >about 2000 oranges. AM towers transmit at a much higher power. Power isn't the issue, it's the frequency. > >The EM radiation from the cell transmitter shouldn't travel up the >wires for your earpiece. I hope you're right about that. > >As for cases of brain cancer, maybe you should look to your CRT >monitor as the culprit? good point Dave posted; >... If this were generally true, there >would be a worldwide epidemic of brain cancer by now. I think you will find that there is. A few years ago the increase in brain cancers in the US (and presumably other countries) was said to be of epidemic proportions but as far as I am aware that predates the use of mobile phones. According to the interviewee, we are seeing the beginnings of such an epidemic, we shall see. I'm sure that there we're trial lawyers in the C to C audience who were salivating at the prospect of investigating the matter! --============_-1106049808==_ma============ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Re: ionizing radiation
Meryln posted;

Note that the strength of EM radiation from a cell phone is highest when it connects to the tower, at the start of a call, incoming or outgoing.  I don't recall the precise numbers, but I saw the experiment on 'Mythbusters' when they were dealing with the cell phone / gas station myth.

I realize that, however that ducks the question about what  the effects of the cell phone in transmit mode are.

The reason your head may feel hot after continued cell use is due to the waste heat from the phone.

Hum, possible, but I doubt it. According to the Interviewee, you can do some kind of brain scan of users and show changes in the area of the brain nearest to the antenna. One of my business associates was trying to make the case that microwave radiation is good, or at least benign, I think he's living in la la land. The biochemist Glen Rein showed that there is a characteristic signature of microwave radiation left on the water.

 
Apples and oranges certainly, but you are comparing 2 apples to about 2000 oranges.  AM towers transmit at a much higher power.

Power isn't the issue, it's the frequency.
 
The EM radiation from the cell transmitter shouldn't travel up the wires for your earpiece.

I hope you're right about that.

 
As for cases of brain cancer, maybe you should look to your CRT monitor as the culprit?

good point

Dave posted;

... If this were generally true, there
would be a worldwide epidemic of brain cancer by now.

I think you will find that there is.
A few years ago the increase in brain cancers in the US (and presumably other countries) was said to be of epidemic proportions but as far as I am aware that predates the use of mobile phones.

According to the interviewee, we are seeing the beginnings of such an epidemic, we shall see. I'm sure that there we're trial lawyers in the C to C audience who were salivating at the prospect of investigating the matter!
--============_-1106049808==_ma============-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 18 10:31:41 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0IIVFb9031480; Tue, 18 Jan 2005 10:31:15 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0IIVCsU031430; Tue, 18 Jan 2005 10:31:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 10:31:12 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "John Steck" To: Subject: RE: ionizing radiation Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 11:35:19 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0005_01C4FD51.C9BFB920" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <20050118145756.74324.qmail web54509.mail.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: <_q1PyB.A.5qH.uXV7BB ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57435 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C4FD51.C9BFB920 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit All EM radiation excites water molecules... I no longer have access to the exact numbers but risks are minimal UNLESS you are a road warrior with a handset next to your head constantly. The primary side affect is a slight localized warming of nearby tissue (in addition to radiated speaker heat). There are no other observed direct or indirect by-products (that have been publicly shared). The effect was more pronounced with the early analog handset that broadcast a continuous 6w of power (1989-90)... today's digital handsets are much friendlier as they are only pumping out less than 1.5w in more burst patterns. In general, permissible handset radiation is closely regulated by the government. Typically there is allot of antenna de-tuning to hit compliance levels. If you are still concerned, there are phone configurations that minimize EM effects. In general, candy-bar phones and flip phones with internal patch antennas are the worst for you. The antenna is close to your head by design, and typical users push it closer to their head to hear better. Regulations are being rewritten for these types of phones to better take usage habits into consideration. Flip phones with external antenna structures are best. My personal favorite has been the Motorola V60 for several reasons.... the antenna projects away from your head when in use, the metal housing between you and the antenna reflects EM away from you, the reduced EM signature at the head allows less antenna de-tuning and greater reception. There was a great concept phone working it's way through the building a couple years ago that would have really been ideal if it survived the vetting process. Essentially it was a flip phone with an integrated antenna trace film molded into the extended flip structure. It put EM father away from the user than any other previous design to date. No antenna de-tuning was needed at all. Reception range was phenomenal and effective radiation to the head was cut significantly. Unfortunately it never got the needed sponsor or customer to get it out of R&D and into production. I agree with the comment below that there are far more pervasive EM sources around us (like the electron gun pointing at me right now). -john -----Original Message----- From: Merlyn [mailto:merlyn_3k yahoo.com] Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 8:58 AM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: ionizing radiation Note that the strength of EM radiation from a cell phone is highest when it connects to the tower, at the start of a call, incoming or outgoing. I don't recall the precise numbers, but I saw the experiment on 'Mythbusters' when they were dealing with the cell phone / gas station myth. So the highest level of radiation is produced when the phone rings, or when you hit call after dialing the number. In either case the phone is typically nowhere near your head. The reason your head may feel hot after continued cell use is due to the waste heat from the phone. Apples and oranges certainly, but you are comparing 2 apples to about 2000 oranges. AM towers transmit at a much higher power. The EM radiation from the cell transmitter shouldn't travel up the wires for your earpiece. As for cases of brain cancer, maybe you should look to your CRT monitor as the culprit? thomas malloy wrote: >Tom wrote: and Mike Carrel replied > > >> I did a remodeling project on what once was a medical clinic. When we >> cut into the walls, there were sheets of lead in them. > >Lead would be used to stop Xrays, nothing more. It was a thin layer of lead, would such a layer stop short X rays too? > > >> I am interested in stopping EMF, in particular short wave X rays and >> possibly shorter wave EMF. > >Check your numbers. The only thing shorter than Xrays are gamma rays emitted >by radioactive substances and accelerators. I've seen a chart like that, I'll have to visit the library and look at one. > > If I put it into a grounded metal, or > >As a first rule of thumb, YES. But EM radiation will leak out of a box like >water or! a gas weakly. There is a whole discipline that goes under the code >name TEMPEST Thanks for that name. > >What if I >> had electrical conductors, coming out of the Faraday Cage, would the >> short wave EMF be conducted with them? Would a transformer stop them? > >You bet. They are antennas, as are any gaps in the shielding of the box. >Transformers only stop DC and can be transparent to everything else. Is there some way to make a transformer that is opaque to them? > > >> There was a man who was interviewed on C to C AM last week. He talked > > about cell phones. > >The man is misguided. A cell phone when on and in stanby will listen to the >nearest cell phoone tower, comparing its address with the last address >received. When you turn it on, it will transmit a burst, reporting in, so >the system knows where your phone is. Your phone then goes passive, just >listening until you take it to another tower's cell; it will transmit >another burst, reporting in, etc. Think logically. Your phone will not waste >battery power transmitting all the time, nor do the towers want hundreds of >phones all yacking at it needlessly. You don't seem to be concerned about these occasional bursts of radiation, Mike, he disagrees with you > >>Then there are the towers, he said that >> you don't want to be within 500 feet of one. > >Utter nonsense. The individual transmitters have a power of about 7.5 watts, >equal to a christmas tree light bulb. The are up high so they can be 'seen' >froma distance and the antennas are designed to emit most of their energy as >a narrow horizontal fan so as to reach as far as possible. Nearby at ground >level you get only the feeble leakage from the antennas. They are so safe >that the FCC does not require s! ite surveys or licensing in setting up cell >towers. Hum, again the two of you are at variance over this matter. He claims that the side of your head will feel hot from continued cell phone use. IMHO, this not a good sign. He says that the number of brain cancers in the vicinity of the antenna continues to increase. > >I used the ear jack when >> I made phone calls, but apparently the EMF follows the wires into the >> ear jack. If his story is correct, over population will not be a >> problem for much longer. > >His story is not correct, it is grossly exaggerated and misleading. There >are some allegations that holding a cell phone to your ear places the >antenna next to your brain and its radiation may affect brain tissue. Years >ago there was a suit by a man (or his widow) alleging that the cell phone >initiated a brain cancer at that spot. If this were generally true, there >would be a worldwide epidemic of brain cancer by now. He says that the aforementioned epidemic is here, or rather that we are just seeing the tip of the iceberg. >Think logically. >People may choose to go hands-free, with a ear bud, and tiny microphone pod, >and the cell phone in their pocket, and walk around talking to the air. The >cell phone antenna can then irradiate your leg instead of your brain. Hum, good point. > >With the above caveats, long term use of a transmitter next to your head is >probably not a great idea, but any bad effects are very hard to quantify. >There were similar concerns about living near high voltage transmission >lines. There were some stories about clusters of disease, including cancers, >near high voltage lines. The clusters were there, but evidence linking them >to the high voltage fields and not some other environmental cause was >lacking. As I understand it, children living in the first house down from the transformer are at a higher risk than children in subsequent houses. Adults are at a lower risk than children, and fetuses at a higher risk. > >Some years ago, Verizon wnated to erect a cell tower at the local police >station. I attended some of the meetings. A woman was all distressed about >irradiation of her house because she had read one of the idiot books. She >was oblivious to the antenna of a 50 kW AM radio station a mile or so away, >which has houses all around it for decades. Its signal is so strong I had to >put filters on the telephone lines and my computer modem to avoid >inteference. I get 25 mV of that transmitter on any stub of wire in the >house. I think that he would say apples and oranges. The wave length of the cell phone EMF is way shorter than the AM radio waves. Merlyn Magickal Engineer and Technical Metaphysicist ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C4FD51.C9BFB920 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
All EM=20 radiation excites water molecules... I no longer have access to the = exact=20 numbers but risks are minimal UNLESS you are a road warrior with a = handset next=20 to your head constantly.  The primary side affect is a slight=20 localized warming of nearby tissue (in addition to radiated speaker = heat). =20 There are no other observed direct or indirect by-products (that have = been=20 publicly shared).  The effect was more pronounced with the early = analog=20 handset that broadcast a continuous 6w of power (1989-90)... today's = digital=20 handsets are much friendlier as they are only pumping out less = than=20 1.5w in more burst patterns.   In general, permissible handset = radiation is closely regulated by the government.  Typically there = is allot=20 of antenna de-tuning to hit compliance levels.
 
If you=20 are still concerned, there are phone configurations that = minimize EM=20 effects.  In general, candy-bar phones and flip phones with = internal patch=20 antennas are the worst for you.  The antenna is close to your head = by=20 design, and typical users push it closer to their head to hear = better. =20 Regulations are being rewritten for these types of phones to better take = usage=20 habits into consideration.  Flip phones with external antenna = structures=20 are best.  My personal favorite has been the Motorola V60 for = several=20 reasons.... the antenna projects away from your head when in use, the = metal=20 housing between you and the antenna reflects EM away from you, the = reduced EM=20 signature at the head allows less antenna de-tuning and greater=20 reception.
 
There=20 was a great concept phone working it's way through the building a couple = years=20 ago that would have really been ideal if it survived the vetting = process. =20 Essentially it was a flip phone with an integrated antenna trace film = molded=20 into the extended flip structure.  It put EM father away from the = user than=20 any other previous design to date.  No antenna de-tuning was needed = at=20 all.  Reception range was phenomenal and effective radiation to the = head=20 was cut significantly.  Unfortunately it never got the needed = sponsor or=20 customer to get it out of R&D and into = production.
 
I=20 agree with the comment below that there are far more pervasive EM = sources=20 around us (like the electron gun pointing at me right = now).
 
-john
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Merlyn=20 [mailto:merlyn_3k yahoo.com]
Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 = 8:58=20 AM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: ionizing=20 radiation

Note that the strength of EM radiation from a cell phone is highest = when it=20 connects to the tower, at the start of a call, incoming or = outgoing.  I=20 don't recall the precise numbers, but I saw the experiment on = 'Mythbusters' when=20 they were dealing with the cell phone / gas station myth.
 
So the highest level of radiation is produced when the phone rings, = or when=20 you hit call after dialing the number.  In either case the phone is = typically nowhere near your head.
 
The reason your head may feel hot after continued cell use is due = to the=20 waste heat from the phone.
 
Apples and oranges certainly, but you are comparing 2 apples to = about 2000=20 oranges.  AM towers transmit at a much higher power.
 
The EM radiation from the cell transmitter shouldn't travel up the = wires=20 for your earpiece.
 
As for cases of brain cancer, maybe you should look to your CRT = monitor as=20 the culprit?

thomas malloy = <temalloy metro.lakes.com>=20 wrote:

>Tom=20 wrote:

and Mike Carrel replied

>
>
>> = I did a=20 remodeling project on what once was a medical clinic. When = we
>> cut=20 into the walls, there were sheets of lead in them.
>
>Lead = would=20 be used to stop Xrays, nothing more.

It was a thin layer of = lead, would=20 such a layer stop short X rays too?

> >
>> I am=20 interested in stopping EMF, in particular short wave X rays = and
>>=20 possibly shorter wave EMF.
>
>Check your numbers. The only = thing=20 shorter than Xrays are gamma rays emitted
>by radioactive = substances and=20 accelerators.

I've seen a chart like that, I'll have to visit = the=20 library and look at one.

>
> If I put it into a = grounded=20 metal, or
>
>As a first rule of thumb, YES. But EM = radiation will=20 leak out of a box like
>water or! a gas weakly. There is a whole = discipline that goes under the code
>name TEMPEST

Thanks = for that=20 name.

> >What if I
>> had electrical conductors, = coming=20 out of the Faraday Cage, would the
>> short wave EMF be = conducted=20 with them? Would a transformer stop them?
>
>You bet. They = are=20 antennas, as are any gaps in the shielding of the = box.
>Transformers=20 only stop DC and can be transparent to everything else.

Is = there some=20 way to make a transformer that is opaque to them?

> = >
>>=20 There was a man who was interviewed on C to C AM last week. He = talked
>=20 > about cell phones.
>
>The man is misguided. A cell = phone when=20 on and in stanby will listen to the
>nearest cell phoone tower,=20 comparing its address with the last address
>received. When you = turn it=20 on, it will transmit a burst, reporting in, so
>the system knows = where=20 your phone is. Your phone then goes passive, just
>listening = until you=20 take it to another tower's cell; it will transmit
>another = burst,=20 reporting in, etc. Think logically. Your phone will not = waste
>battery=20 power transmitting all the time, nor do the towers want hundreds=20 of
>phones all yacking at it needlessly.

You don't seem = to be=20 concerned about these occasional bursts of
radiation, Mike, he = disagrees=20 with you

>
>>Then there are the towers, he said=20 that
>> you don't want to be within 500 feet of=20 one.
>
>Utter nonsense. The individual transmitters have a = power=20 of about 7.5 watts,
>equal to a christmas tree light bulb. The = are up=20 high so they can be 'seen'
>froma distance and the antennas are = designed=20 to emit most of their energy as
>a narrow horizontal fan so as = to reach=20 as far as possible. Nearby at ground
>level you get only the = feeble=20 leakage from the antennas. They are so safe
>that the FCC does = not=20 require s! ite surveys or licensing in setting up=20 cell
>towers.

Hum, again the two of you are at variance = over this=20 matter. He claims
that the side of your head will feel hot from = continued=20 cell phone
use. IMHO, this not a good sign. He says that the = number of=20 brain
cancers in the vicinity of the antenna continues to=20 increase.

>
>I used the ear jack when
>> I = made phone=20 calls, but apparently the EMF follows the wires into the
>> = ear jack.=20 If his story is correct, over population will not be a
>> = problem for=20 much longer.
>
>His story is not correct, it is grossly=20 exaggerated and misleading. There
>are some allegations that = holding a=20 cell phone to your ear places the
>antenna next to your brain = and its=20 radiation may affect brain tissue. Years
>ago there was a suit = by a man=20 (or his widow) alleging that the cell phone
>initiated a brain = cancer at=20 that spot. If this were generally true, there
>would be a = worldwide=20 epidemic of brain cancer by now.

He says that the = aforementioned=20 epidemic is here, or rather that we
are just seeing the tip of the = iceberg.

>Think logically.
>People may choose to go=20 hands-free, with a ear bud, and tiny microphone pod,
>and the = cell phone=20 in their pocket, and walk around talking to the air. The
>cell = phone=20 antenna can then irradiate your leg instead of your brain.

Hum, = good=20 point.

>
>With the above caveats, long term use of a=20 transmitter next to your head is
>probably not a great idea, but = any bad=20 effects are very hard to quantify.
>There were similar concerns = about=20 living near high voltage transmission
>lines. There were some = stories=20 about clusters of disease, including cancers,
>near high voltage = lines.=20 The clusters were there, but evidence linking them
>to the high = voltage=20 fields and not some other environmental cause = was
>lacking.

As I=20 understand it, children living in the first house down from the=20
transformer are at a higher risk than children in subsequent = houses.=20
Adults are at a lower risk than children, and fetuses at a higher=20
risk.

>
>Some years ago, Verizon wnated to erect a = cell=20 tower at the local police
>station. I attended some of the = meetings. A=20 woman was all distressed about
>irradiation of her house because = she had=20 read one of the idiot books. She
>was oblivious to the antenna = of a 50=20 kW AM radio station a mile or so away,
>which has houses all = around it=20 for decades. Its signal is so strong I had to
>put filters on = the=20 telephone lines and my computer modem to avoid
>inteference. I = get 25 mV=20 of that transmitter on any stub of wire in the
>house.

I = think=20 that he would say apples and oranges. The wave length of the
cell = phone=20 EMF is way shorter than the AM radio=20 waves.



Merlyn
Magickal Engineer and = Technical=20 Metaphysicist

Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo!=20 Mail - You care about security. So do we. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C4FD51.C9BFB920-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 18 10:44:52 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0IIicBQ020045; Tue, 18 Jan 2005 10:44:43 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0IIiaWC020024; Tue, 18 Jan 2005 10:44:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 10:44:36 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <1e2.3355b1c3.2f1e7c44 aol.com> References: <1e2.3355b1c3.2f1e7c44 aol.com> Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 12:45:12 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: ionizing radiation Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="============_-1106048567==_ma============" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57436 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --============_-1106048567==_ma============ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" I posted, and Then the Baron weighted in: >> >> >>I did a remodeling project on what once was a medical clinic. When we >>cut into the walls, there were sheets of lead in them. > > >Cell phones, and high frequency waves especially those that are >mixed frequencies can sometimes penetrate faraday cages if the cages >are not grounded well enough to sink the higher frequency and mixed >energy waves quickly enough. The Tom Bearden website has an >article on using phase conjugate mirrors to produce a time reversed >wave in direct response to a received ordinary wave, and the mirror >may be pumped with energy to produce a very large amplification of >the time reversed wave, to completely jam the wave right back to its >source, which is often used on missiles to protect them from beam >weapons attacks. Hum, I wonder where I can get the plans for one of these beam weapons? I was talking to a physicist about photons. He was going on about time reversed waves. IMHO, this has a lot more potential than a FTL communication. Do any of you people have a schematic which will detail how I can build one of these phase conjugate mirrors, more importantly, is the design of the receiver? > >Placing powerful magnets and magnetic coils around a faraday cage, >which creates a magnetic force field may jam high frequency energy >waves. Also a holographic plasma force field created by sound waves >in air and in other gases may also jam high frequency emf waves. A holographic plasma force field created by sound waves. You know, I'd dismiss this as the Barron's ravings if the aforementioned physicist hadn't talked about adding an additional dimension to a laser by the addition of sound waves, > A large vacuum of 7 inches or more, may jam emf waves but I am not >sure. Emf waves and cell phones also produce scalar waves as a >side effect, and scalar waves may be somewhat jammed by using a role >of aluminum foil rolled up much like a tesla coil to slow them down >and trap them as emf energy in the center of the role of foil. Many >nuclear shelters use rolled up metal like tesla coils to catch >nuclear energy and trap it in the rolled up metal. This is the first time I've heard someone assert that EMF waves would be stopped by a vacuum, in any case it's rather difficult to maintain a vacuum here. It would seem to me that if nuclear energy could be trapped by a aluminium foil analog of a Tesla coil, have you seen a design? >Creating several layers of rolled up metal foil, with several layers >of a faraday cage walls energized with sound and plasma waves as >phase conjugate mirrors, may also trap the secondary and ternary >waves. Flowing water energized with sound waves to create a >holographic water force field may jam both scalar and emf waves >somewhat. Wow, several layers of metal foil and flowing water. >Ultra sound beam carrier waves may be used to carry scalar waves, >and to create a unique holographic antenna in the air to receive >scalar waves, to make a scalar wave neutrino or ionic force field >that may jam or reflect emf waves. Elf waves can be received by >short waves coupled over water, so that it may be possible to jam >Elf waves by combining short waves in series created over water. Hum, ultrasonic beam wave, is that like a maser? This is going to modify the atmosphere such that it becomes a scalar antenna? If we could just use it to capture the neutrinos which may be carrying away the unobserved energy from LENR's. Now if I can just figure out what water has got to do with it! > --============_-1106048567==_ma============ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Re: ionizing radiation
I posted, and

Then the Baron weighted in:



I did a remodeling project on what once was a medical clinic. When we
cut into the walls, there were sheets of lead in them.


Cell phones, and high frequency waves especially those that are mixed frequencies can sometimes penetrate faraday cages if the cages are not grounded well enough to sink the higher frequency and mixed energy waves quickly enough.   The Tom Bearden website has an article on using phase conjugate mirrors to produce a time reversed wave in direct response to a received ordinary wave, and the mirror may be pumped with energy to produce a very large amplification of the time reversed wave, to completely jam the wave right back to its source, which is often used on missiles to protect them from beam weapons attacks.

Hum, I wonder where I can get the plans for one of these beam weapons? I was talking to a physicist about photons. He was going on about time reversed waves. IMHO, this has a lot more potential than a FTL communication. Do any of you people have a schematic which will detail how I can build one of these phase conjugate mirrors, more importantly, is the design of the receiver?


Placing powerful magnets and magnetic coils around a faraday cage, which creates a magnetic force field may jam high frequency energy waves.  Also a holographic plasma force field created by sound waves in air and in other gases may also jam high frequency emf waves.

A holographic plasma force field created by sound waves. You know, I'd dismiss this as the Barron's ravings if the aforementioned physicist hadn't talked about adding an additional dimension to a laser by the addition of sound waves,

  A large vacuum of 7 inches or more, may jam emf waves but I am not sure.   Emf waves and cell phones also produce scalar waves as a side effect, and scalar waves may be somewhat jammed by using a role of aluminum foil rolled up much like a tesla coil to slow them down and trap them as emf energy in the center of the role of foil.  Many nuclear shelters use rolled up metal like tesla coils to catch nuclear energy and trap it in the rolled up metal.  

This is the first time I've heard someone assert that EMF waves would be stopped by a vacuum, in any case it's rather difficult to maintain a vacuum here. It would seem to me that if nuclear energy could be trapped by a aluminium foil analog of a Tesla coil, have you seen a design?

Creating several layers of rolled up metal foil, with several layers of a faraday cage walls energized with sound and plasma waves as phase conjugate mirrors, may also trap the secondary and ternary waves.   Flowing water energized with sound waves to create a holographic water force field may jam both scalar and emf waves somewhat.


Wow, several layers of metal foil and flowing water.

Ultra sound beam carrier waves may be used to carry scalar waves, and to create a unique holographic antenna in the air to receive scalar waves, to make a scalar wave neutrino or ionic force field that may jam or reflect emf waves.  Elf waves can be received by short waves coupled over water, so that it may be possible to jam Elf waves by combining short waves in series created over water.

Hum, ultrasonic beam wave, is that like a maser? This is going to modify the atmosphere such that it becomes a scalar antenna? If we could just use it to capture the neutrinos which may be carrying away the unobserved energy from LENR's. Now if I can just figure out what water has got to do with it!


--============_-1106048567==_ma============-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 18 10:52:38 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0IIqHBQ022757; Tue, 18 Jan 2005 10:52:23 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0IIqBuf022694; Tue, 18 Jan 2005 10:52:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 10:52:11 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=HnLZIjUbCp1n74H5HEe0ge9yg9MCsKnINh1+6k02GENjbBz9Ip2LFuRDxZuhvmPS9lYfaj14TfYSVSlXRqDKIiOu9px01uO4Btb6cUkYih2H6+nWrc/PI6KkcYmQBIe87c1Muy9iv9PSPCCnLCQkHr2WaoWTBZQE1sAbvO9qJ0A= ; Message-ID: <20050118160511.93596.qmail web54502.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 08:05:11 -0800 (PST) From: Merlyn Subject: Re: ionizing radiation To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <20050118145756.74324.qmail web54509.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1304159147-1106064311=:91590" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57437 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-1304159147-1106064311=:91590 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii This link sums up cell phone safety issues fairly well, the results are inconclusive. http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/publicfeature/aug00/prad.html Spectrum is the magazine of IEEE, which is the professional association of electrical and electronics engineers. Merlyn Magickal Engineer and Technical Metaphysicist --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. --0-1304159147-1106064311=:91590 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
This link sums up cell phone safety issues fairly well, the results are inconclusive.
Spectrum is the magazine of IEEE, which is the professional association of electrical and electronics engineers.



Merlyn
Magickal Engineer and Technical Metaphysicist

Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. --0-1304159147-1106064311=:91590-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 18 11:53:15 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0IJr7b9032437; Tue, 18 Jan 2005 11:53:08 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0IJr5dL032412; Tue, 18 Jan 2005 11:53:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 11:53:05 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050118171248.006c5374 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 17:12:48 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: ionizing radiation Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57438 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I thought this article recently on the BBC website may be of interest. Grimer ======================================================= Child warning over mobile phones Many children use mobile phones Parents should ensure their children use mobile phones only when absolutely necessary because of the potential health risks, an expert is warning. The latest study by Sir William Stewart says there is still no proof mobile phones are unsafe, but warns precautionary steps should be taken. Sir William said children under eight should not use mobile phones at all. In light of the findings, a phone designed for this age group has been withdrawn from sale in the UK. The MyMo phone went on sale five months ago aimed at four to eight-year-olds to use in an emergency. Parents have a responsibility to their children not simply to throw a mobile phone to a young child Sir William Stewart Advice ignored Sir William, now of the National Radiological Protection Board, first warned five years ago that children should only use mobiles in emergencies. But he is now concerned that advice is being ignored. Mobile phone operators welcomed the fact that Sir William's report highlighted the lack of hard evidence linking handsets with adverse health effects. One in four seven to 10-year-olds now own a mobile phone - double the levels in 2001, according to latest figures... Last year a 750-people study by Sweden's Karolinska Institute suggested using a mobile phone for 10 years or more increases the risk of ear tumours by four times. A Dutch study has suggested mobile phone use can affect brain function, and further research from Europe indicated radiation from the phones can cause DNA damage. ============================================================== At 08:21 pm 18-01-05 +1100, you wrote: > >On Tuesday, January 18, 2005, at 01:00 AM, Mike Carrell wrote: > >> ... If this were generally true, there >> would be a worldwide epidemic of brain cancer by now. > >I think you will find that there is. > >A few years ago the increase in brain cancers in the US (and presumably >other countries) was said to be of epidemic proportions but as far as I >am aware that predates the use of mobile phones. > >dave > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 18 12:18:01 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0IKHtb9005514; Tue, 18 Jan 2005 12:17:55 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0IKHsUM005495; Tue, 18 Jan 2005 12:17:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 12:17:54 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 11:26:27 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Vehicles need to be insulated Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57439 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:09 PM 1/18/5, thomas malloy wrote: > >You people need to visit J C Whitney's website and look for a gas >powered heater. I'm glad to hear that only a few of you are freezing >to death in your cars! Actually, so few people freeze here because they enough common sense to carry emergency arctic gear. It is much better to have a good sleeping bag and shovel than a gas heater. Sleeping bags don't run out of gas. As for day to day, most people here have big hulking gas hogs that have no problem providing lots of heat. If you drive an ordinary car, like I do, you have trouble seeing it in a parking lot because so many vehicles are SUVs and trucks. The major problem will come when folks are forced to change to low gas milage vehicles. Hybrid vehicles will have no appeal here. That is the problem I am trying to address. Throwing more hydrocarbon energy at a hydrocarbon energy problem is not a solution. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 18 13:30:00 2005 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0ILTrb9032736; Tue, 18 Jan 2005 13:29:54 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0ILTqsN032710; Tue, 18 Jan 2005 13:29:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 13:29:52 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 16:28:33 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Relaxing Newton's axioms of motion To: vortex-l eskimo.com Cc: PatternVill yahoogroups.com, MetaSciences Academy , time
MC: One can encircle an island, = but China is=20 not an island. Russia also saw itself as "encircled" by antagonistic=20 capitalist nations. China has little oil, is dependant on Russia or = other=20 countries, as is the US. Certainly China needs energy for economic = growth and=20 is building large hyrdoelectric projects. China has a host of internal = problems as well, as outlined in Jared Diamond's recent book = "Collapse". The=20 US is investing in China, which may become a great power in this = century, as=20 it was in the past.

Whoever = controls the oil can=20 also use it against the USA.  So if Bush and other Middle Eastern = oil=20 barons should decide to ally with China, the Middle East, or any other = power=20 the USA could be helpless unless the USA becomes more energy self = sufficient=20 at home also.    Another advantage that the USA = citizen's have=20 over China and other Third World nations presently, is that the USA = can very=20 quickly upgrade its society to a solar, wind and corn fueled ethanol = society=20 much faster than China since the average USA citizen is still wealthy = enough=20 to buy and upgrade to solar, wind and ethanol, so that the USA is not=20 dependent on oil as much as China and other Third World nations will = be.=20  The Average Chinese and Third World citizen does not have the = funds to=20 pay for solar or room to grown corn for ethanol.  The key in the = USA will=20 be to get enough USA citizens to upgrade to solar, wind and ethanol = quickly=20 enough while they still have a chance.  
MC:=20 Developing countries will first use the established, low technology = engines=20 and accept the resultant pollution. The idea that the US can quickly = solve its=20 energy problem by converstion to wind, solar and biomass is an = illusion, given=20 our dependency on private automobiles. Ethonol ultimately depends on = petroleum=20 based fertilizers to get the needed productivity.


The solar cells have just recently improved by 30 percent = efficiency and are more durable to last longer and can collect = infrared=20 sunlight at night to make them 60 percent more efficient than present = solar=20 cells to make them cost effective and competitive with oil and other = energies.=20  It is very likely that solar cells will improve their efficiency = and=20 durability every 10 years.  The James Bond movie, The man with = the golden=20 gun, showed that a solar cell with 95 percent efficiency had been = invented by=20 1973, but is kept classified, so that we can be assured that solar = cell=20 efficiency will improve, to make solar cells a good energy investment. =
 
MC: The infrared sensitive solar cells are a useful = development. They=20 have a claimed 30% efficiency -- not an improvement of 30% and are = cheap,=20 compared silicon-based cells which can reach 25% at high cost. There = is no=20 "infrared sunlight" at night. There are many factors in a PV system = that enter=20 into feasibility. The James Bond device is fiction, and if you believe = that=20 "it is kept classified", then the crediblity of your analysis is = nonexsitent.=20
Mike=20 Carrell ------=_NextPart_000_00C6_01C50393.3CACCA80-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 26 08:33:36 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0QGX91m001501; Wed, 26 Jan 2005 08:33:09 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0QGW9ns000508; Wed, 26 Jan 2005 08:32:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 08:32:09 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "John Steck" To: Subject: RE: Will future war be fought over energy? Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 10:29:03 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0057_01C50391.DB895940" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 In-Reply-To: <1e2.33f5bece.2f28f2c0 aol.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57282 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0057_01C50391.DB895940 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit All wars are for control over local resources. China's explosive growth and large population is unsustainable with their own sovereign resources (raw materials, energy, food, etc). Their strategic concerns are valid. The US influence is significant and there is historical precedence. Set the way back machine for 1941 and how Roosevelt manipulated Japan into attacking to change public opinion towards the US entering an unpopular war.... an oil embargo. Here is an interesting link... http://www.threeworldwars.com/world-war-2/ww2.htm The next major war will be fought in the Asian theater, but it will not be between India and Pakistan, or US and China, or Japan and North Korea.... it will between China and Russia. It will be over the Siberian territory and the natural resources there China will desperately need to prevent and economic collapse. All saber rattling aside, the US needs China and China needs the US. Publicly I expect outrage from the state department should any such act of aggression take place, but privately I expect to see the US to fail to "act in time" to prevent it. It will be in the economic interests of the US to allow it. China is and will continue to be for a long time to come the silent partner of the US in the world economy. -john -----Original Message----- From: Baronvolsung aol.com [mailto:Baronvolsung@aol.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 7:19 AM To: NEO-ROUNDTABLE yahoogroups.com; prj@mail.msen.com; vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Will future war be fought over energy? In a message dated 1/24/05 11:50:07 AM Pacific Standard Time, bernert erols.com writes: ." China believes the U.S. military will disrupt China's energy imports in any conflict over Taiwan, and sees the United States as an unpredictable country that violates others' sovereignty and wants to "encircle" China, the report said. Beijing's leaders see access to oil and gas resources as vital to economic growth and fear that stalled economic growth could cause instability and ultimately the collapse of their nation of 1.3 billion people. Whoever controls the oil can also use it against the USA. So if Bush and other Middle Eastern oil barons should decide to ally with China, the Middle East, or any other power the USA could be helpless unless the USA becomes more energy self sufficient at home also. Another advantage that the USA citizen's have over China and other Third World nations presently, is that the USA can very quickly upgrade its society to a solar, wind and corn fueled ethanol society much faster than China since the average USA citizen is still wealthy enough to buy and upgrade to solar, wind and ethanol, so that the USA is not dependent on oil as much as China and other Third World nations will be. The Average Chinese and Third World citizen does not have the funds to pay for solar or room to grown corn for ethanol. The key in the USA will be to get enough USA citizens to upgrade to solar, wind and ethanol quickly enough while they still have a chance. The solar cells have just recently improved by 30 percent efficiency and are more durable to last longer and can collect infrared sunlight at night to make them 60 percent more efficient than present solar cells to make them cost effective and competitive with oil and other energies. It is very likely that solar cells will improve their efficiency and durability every 10 years. The James Bond movie, The man with the golden gun, showed that a solar cell with 95 percent efficiency had been invented by 1973, but is kept classified, so that we can be assured that solar cell efficiency will improve, to make solar cells a good energy investment. Baron Von Volsung, www.rhfweb.com\baron, Email: www.rhfweb.com\emailform.html President Thomas D. Clark, Email: www.rhfweb.com\emailform.html, Personal Web Page: www.rhfweb.com\personal New Age Production's Inc., www.rhfweb.com\newage Star Haven Community Services, at www.rhfweb.com\sh. Radiation Health Foundation Trust at www.rhfweb.com Making a difference one person at a time Get informed. Inform others. ------=_NextPart_000_0057_01C50391.DB895940 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
All wars are for control over local = resources.  China's explosive growth and large population is = unsustainable=20 with their own sovereign resources (raw materials, energy, food, = etc). =20 Their strategic concerns are valid.  The US influence is = significant and=20 there is historical precedence.  Set the way back machine for 1941 = and how=20 Roosevelt manipulated Japan into attacking to change public=20 opinion towards the US entering an unpopular war.... an oil = embargo. =20 Here is an interesting link... http://www.thr= eeworldwars.com/world-war-2/ww2.htm
 
The=20 next major war will be fought in the Asian theater, but it will not = be=20 between India and Pakistan, or US and China, or Japan and North = Korea.... =20 it will between China and Russia.  It will be over the Siberian = territory=20 and the natural resources there China will desperately need to prevent = and=20 economic collapse.  All saber rattling aside, the US needs China = and China=20 needs the US.  Publicly I expect outrage from the state department = should=20 any such act of aggression take place, but privately I expect to see the = US to=20 fail to "act in time" to prevent it.  It will be = in the economic=20 interests of the US to allow it.  China is and will continue to be = for a=20 long time to come the silent partner of the US in the world=20 economy.
 
-john
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Baronvolsung aol.com = [mailto:Baronvolsung aol.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, = 2005 7:19=20 AM
To: NEO-ROUNDTABLE yahoogroups.com; prj@mail.msen.com;=20 vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Will future war be fought = over=20 energy?

In a message dated 1/24/05 = 11:50:07 AM=20 Pacific Standard Time, bernert erols.com writes:


."
     =
   China=20 believes the U.S. military will disrupt China's energy imports in any = conflict=20 over Taiwan, and sees the United States as an unpredictable country = that=20 violates others' sovereignty and wants to "encircle" China, the report = said.=20
    
   Beijing's leaders = see=20 access to oil and gas resources as vital to economic growth and fear = that=20 stalled economic growth could cause instability and ultimately the = collapse of=20 their nation of 1.3 billion people.

Whoever controls = the oil can=20 also use it against the USA.  So if Bush and other Middle Eastern = oil=20 barons should decide to ally with China, the Middle East, or any other = power the=20 USA could be helpless unless the USA becomes more energy self sufficient = at home=20 also.    Another advantage that the USA citizen's have = over China=20 and other Third World nations presently, is that the USA can very = quickly=20 upgrade its society to a solar, wind and corn fueled ethanol society = much faster=20 than China since the average USA citizen is still wealthy enough to buy = and=20 upgrade to solar, wind and ethanol, so that the USA is not dependent on = oil as=20 much as China and other Third World nations will be.  The Average = Chinese=20 and Third World citizen does not have the funds to pay for solar or room = to=20 grown corn for ethanol.  The key in the USA will be to get enough = USA=20 citizens to upgrade to solar, wind and ethanol quickly enough while they = still=20 have a chance.  

The solar cells have just recently = improved by 30=20 percent efficiency and are more durable to last longer and can collect = infrared=20 sunlight at night to make them 60 percent more efficient than present = solar=20 cells to make them cost effective and competitive with oil and other = energies.=20  It is very likely that solar cells will improve their efficiency = and=20 durability every 10 years.  The James Bond movie, The man with the = golden=20 gun, showed that a solar cell with 95 percent efficiency had been = invented by=20 1973, but is kept classified, so that we can be assured that solar cell=20 efficiency will improve, to make solar cells a good energy investment.=20

Baron Von Volsung, www.rhfweb.com\baron, Email: www.rhfweb.com\emailform.ht= ml=20
President Thomas D. Clark, Email: www.rhfweb.com\emailform.ht= ml,=20
Personal Web Page: www.rhfweb.com\personal =
New Age=20 Production's Inc., www.rhfweb.com\newage
Star = Haven=20 Community Services, at www.rhfweb.com\sh.=20
Radiation Health Foundation Trust at www.rhfweb.com

Making a = difference=20 one person at a time
Get informed. Inform others.=20
------=_NextPart_000_0057_01C50391.DB895940-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 26 09:00:36 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0QH031u020859; Wed, 26 Jan 2005 09:00:21 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0QGYeJN002726; Wed, 26 Jan 2005 08:34:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 08:34:40 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Mark S Bilk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Accident Report from Mizuno Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 08:29:48 -0800 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.28] Content-Type: text/plain MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <05012608342707.30586 isis> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <2G8NiC.A.Pq.fa89BB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57283 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050126092058.02ac1530 pop.mindspring.com> Organization: http://www.cosmicpenguin.com/911 Thank goodness Mizuno and his guest were not seriously injured; I hope their hearing recovers. This event could be very significant. If the estimate of 2-3 cc of hydrox gas mixture is right, it doesn't seem that this could have been the source of the explosion. If I remember correctly, I collected that much in a plastic pill bottle by electrolysis when I was a kid, and it just made a little "pop" when ignited. The size of the explosion seems more like what would be produced by a medium-size firecracker -- a few cc of gunpowder, thus about 1000 (the density ratio of solid to gas) times as much explosive material and energy as the same volume of gas. Possibilities might be either that the electrolyte was full of (incipient?) hydrinos that underwent a chain reaction (if the observed expansion of the white light was not just a perceptual artifact), or some kind of very tiny nuclear reaction occurred at the cathode. Did they have any nuclear radiation/particle detectors there, even a film dosimeter? This may be a major breakthrough, and it was with light water! Hopefully the effect can be replicated (under safe conditions), and filmed through a telescopic lens. On Wed, Jan 26, 2005 at 09:22:57AM -0500, Jed Rothwell wrote: >[I will upload an Acrobat version of this report that includes photographs.] > >Accident Report > >Tadahiko Mizuno >Division of Quantum Energy Engineering, >Research group of Nuclear System Engineering >Hokkaido University >E-mail: mizuno qe.eng.hokudai.ac.jp > >On January 24, 2005 at around 4:00 p.m. an explosion occurred during a >plasma electrolysis experiment being performed by Mizuno in the Quantum >Energy Engineering Section. > >The cell was a 1000 cc Pyrex glass vessel which has been in use for about 5 >years. It contained 700 cc of 0.2M K2CO3 electrolyte; a platinum mesh >anode; and a tungsten cathode wire 1.5 mm in diameter, 29 cm long, with 3 >cm exposed to the electrolyte. Electrolyte temperature was 20 deg C. The >cell was placed inside a constant temperature air-cooled incubator (Yamato >1L-6) with the outer door open, and the inner Plexiglas safety door closed. >The experimental setup is described in Ref. 1. The event occurred in the >early stage of the experiment before a plasma normally forms. Soon after >ordinary electrolysis began, voltage was increased to 20 V and current to >1.5 A. 5 or 6 seconds later, a bright white flash was seen on the lower >portion of the cathode. The light expanded and at the same instant the cell >exploded. > >The explosion blew open the Plexiglas safety door and spread shards of >Pyrex glass and electrolyte up to 5 ~ 6 m into the surrounding area. > >When the explosion occurred, Mizuno and a guest visiting the laboratory >(who wishes to remain anonymous) were observing the cell about 1 m from the >incubator. They were wounded in the face, neck, arms and chest by shards of >glass 1 ~ 5 cm long. Fortunately, there were no injuries to their eyes. The >injuries are light, and they are expected to recover in a week. However, >the explosion made such a tremendous noise both victims were temporarily >rendered completely deaf. It is not known whether this will have any >after-effects. > > >Possible Causes > >The vessel was old and may have had a scratch on the inner surface. > >The effluent hydrogen and oxygen were mixed in the cell headspace. There 2 >~ 3 cc of hydrogen at the time, although this is an open cell so only >minimal amounts of gas remain in the headspace. > >It is possible that the tungsten cathode may have been exposed to the gas >in the headspace. > > >Recommendations > >Researchers performing similar glow discharge experiments are advised to >make an experimental setup that can undergo an explosion without >endangering personnel. Care should be taken not only to protect against >shards and fragments, but also to avoid exposure to the extreme noise of an >explosion. > >Voltage, current and electrolyte temperature were below the levels needed >to form a glow discharge, so it is unclear what might have caused the >explosion. > > >Countermeasures > >Here are some basic protective steps that should be taken in all >experiments of this nature: > >Perform experiments under remote control, with power supplies and meters >placed a safe distance from the cell. > >Use an explosion-proof cell vessel and equipment chamber. > >Do not use glass cells. (We are now investigating alternative materials.) > >All glass and plastic vessels should be wrapped with filament tape to >prevent fragmentation. > >Prevent mixing and recombination of effluent hydrogen and oxygen. However, >it would be impossible to prevent mixing during the glow discharge phase >when both gasses are generated at the cathode. > >Use nontoxic or reduced toxicity electrolyte solutions. > >Always use safety glasses, helmets, faceguards and an acrylic blast screen. > >While we have not concluded this incident was caused by a cold fusion >reaction, be aware that cold fusion is still poorly understood and >difficult to control. > >Be aware that in normal operation these systems often produce intense >ultra-violet rays that can damage unprotected eyes; and they can produce >intense magnetic fields and possibly x-rays and neutrons. Take steps to >protect yourself from these as well. > >References > >1. Mizuno, T., T. Ohmori, and T. Akimoto. Generation of Heat and Products >During Plasma Electrolysis. in Tenth International Conference on Cold >Fusion. 2003. Cambridge, MA: LENR-CANR.org. >http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/MizunoTgeneration.pdf > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 26 11:27:41 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0QJR81m003179; Wed, 26 Jan 2005 11:27:09 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0QJQiNo003009; Wed, 26 Jan 2005 11:26:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 11:26:44 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050126141846.02a35788 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 14:26:18 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Accident Report from Mizuno In-Reply-To: <05012608342707.30586 isis> References: <05012608342707.30586 isis> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_19110515==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57284 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_19110515==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Mark S Bilk wrote: >This event could be very significant. If the estimate of 2-3 cc >of hydrox gas mixture is right, it doesn't seem that this could >have been the source of the explosion. That does seem odd. This estimate is based upon the volume of headspace in the cell, and the assumption that the outlet tube was not plugged up in the effluent gas was at 1 atm. I assume he checked the outlet tube for obstructions after the accident -- but he has not told me he did that. >Did they have any nuclear radiation/particle detectors there, >even a film dosimeter? Probably only a neutron detector. I'll bet he gets a proper detector now! >This may be a major breakthrough, and it was with light water! >Hopefully the effect can be replicated (under safe conditions), >and filmed through a telescopic lens. There would be no need to use a telescopic lens. The camera could be placed close to the cell, perhaps behind heavy Plexiglas. However, I doubt this effect can be replicated. Mizuno has run the experiment hundreds of times over many years and nothing like this has occurred previously. There was nothing special or different about this particular run, so it seems very unlikely that the same thing will happen again anytime soon. Vincenzo Iorio, who is also doing glow discharge experiments, made the following comments: "I believe that the explosion is due to an accumulation of gas (H2 and O2) . . . I also want to recommend to everybody to be very careful to the gases that are produced in the cell during the trial. I have noted production of thallium in the gas. This element is very toxic. I also want to recommend to put a screen in transparent Plexiglas of 1 cm thickness in front of the experimental apparatus." - Jed --=====================_19110515==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Mark S Bilk wrote:

This event could be very significant.  If the estimate of 2-3 cc
of hydrox gas mixture is right, it doesn't seem that this could
have been the source of the explosion.

That does seem odd. This estimate is based upon the volume of headspace in the cell, and the assumption that the outlet tube was not plugged up in the effluent gas was at 1 atm. I assume he checked the outlet tube for obstructions after the accident -- but he has not told me he did that.


Did they have any nuclear radiation/particle detectors there,
even a film dosimeter?

Probably only a neutron detector. I'll bet he gets a proper detector now!


This may be a major breakthrough, and it was with light water! 
Hopefully the effect can be replicated (under safe conditions),
and filmed through a telescopic lens. 

There would be no need to use a telescopic lens. The camera could be placed close to the cell, perhaps behind heavy Plexiglas. However, I doubt this effect can be replicated. Mizuno has run the experiment hundreds of times over many years and nothing like this has occurred previously. There was nothing special or different about this particular run, so it seems very unlikely that the same thing will happen again anytime soon.


Vincenzo Iorio, who is also doing glow discharge experiments, made the following comments:

"I believe that the explosion is due to an accumulation of gas (H2 and O2) . . .

I also want to recommend to everybody to be very careful to the gases that are produced in the cell during the trial. I have noted production of thallium in the gas. This element is very toxic. I also want to recommend to put a screen in transparent Plexiglas of 1 cm thickness  in front of the experimental apparatus."


- Jed
 --=====================_19110515==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 26 11:45:16 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0QJiv1m012674; Wed, 26 Jan 2005 11:44:58 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0QJisZU012635; Wed, 26 Jan 2005 11:44:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 11:44:54 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050126144000.02a14388 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 14:44:32 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Wait a sec . . . What about the "funnel"? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_20205203==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57285 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --=====================_20205203==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I just realized that with the equipment Mizuno has been using lately, the oxygen and hydrogen cannot mix during the early phase of the glow discharge experiment. There is a funnel over the cathode to prevent this. The funnel was installed to prevent contamination because the effluent gas is sent to a mass spectrometer. I just sent this note Mizuno: "Are you sure the oxygen and hydrogen were mixed? I thought this was your glow discharge cell with the 'funnel' over the cathode. Or did you use in some other cell without a funnel? With ordinary electrolysis, the funnel should keep the oxygen from mixing with hydrogen." The photograph of the shattered cell remains show the same cooling loop arrangement he used with the funnel, and some shards of glass left in the top about where the funnel should be. This is an interesting mystery. I will report his response tomorrow. - Jed --=====================_20205203==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" I just realized that with the equipment Mizuno has been using lately,

the oxygen and hydrogen cannot mix during the early phase of the glow discharge experiment. There is a funnel over the cathode to prevent this. The funnel was installed to prevent contamination because the effluent gas is sent to a mass spectrometer.

I just sent this note Mizuno:

"Are you sure the oxygen and hydrogen were mixed? I thought this was your glow discharge cell with the 'funnel' over the cathode. Or did you use in some other cell without a funnel? With ordinary electrolysis, the funnel should keep the oxygen from mixing with hydrogen."


The photograph of the shattered cell remains show the same cooling loop arrangement he used with the funnel, and some shards of glass left in the top about where the funnel should be.

This is an interesting mystery. I will report his response tomorrow.

- Jed
 --=====================_20205203==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 26 12:17:11 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0QKGm1m028125; Wed, 26 Jan 2005 12:16:50 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0QKGdBw028045; Wed, 26 Jan 2005 12:16:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 12:16:39 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20050126121041.0c2da008 mail.dlsi.net> X-Sender: steven%newenergytimes.com mail.dlsi.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 12:18:25 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: Physics today 1/25/05-feder In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050126100751.02ac2760 pop.mindspring.com> References: <001201c50348$49e91d70$0100007f xptower> <001201c50348$49e91d70$0100007f xptower> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_85388671==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57286 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_85388671==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed RC, I, like Jed, question your assertions. While I agree with you that the Japanese are taking this more seriously than the U.S., your claims seem greatly exaggerated. Do you have any evidence to back them up or to demonstrate how you might know this? At 10:13 AM 1/26/2005 -0500, you wrote: >RC Macaulay wrote: > >>The USA programs are unpublished because they are under NSA guidelines. >>The Japanese are working at warp speed on the same within their >>Universities as well as their industrial labs. Steven B. Krivit Senior Editor NEW ENERGY TIMES Your best source for cold fusion news and information. 11664 National Blvd. Suite 142 Los Angeles, California, USA 90064 www.newenergytimes.com Office Phone: (310) 470-8189 --=====================_85388671==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" RC,

I, like Jed, question your assertions. While I agree with you that the Japanese are taking this more seriously than the U.S., your claims seem greatly exaggerated. Do you have any evidence to back them up or to demonstrate how you might know this?

At 10:13 AM 1/26/2005 -0500, you wrote:
RC Macaulay wrote:

The USA programs are unpublished because they are under NSA guidelines. The Japanese are working at warp speed on the same within their Universities as well as their industrial labs.



Steven B. Krivit
Senior Editor
NEW ENERGY TIMES
Your best source for cold fusion news and information.

11664 National Blvd. Suite 142
Los Angeles, California, USA 90064
www.newenergytimes.com
Office Phone: (310) 470-8189

--=====================_85388671==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 26 12:36:26 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0QKa81m004219; Wed, 26 Jan 2005 12:36:12 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0QKa5tL004194; Wed, 26 Jan 2005 12:36:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 12:36:05 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050126152710.02a9ac30 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 15:35:41 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Accident photo uploaded Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_23279406==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57287 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --=====================_23279406==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I have not got around to uploading the report, but I thought people here might want to see the high-resolution digital photograph of the accident. It is uploaded here: http://www.lenr-canr.org/images/MizunoAccident.JPG The object in the left foreground is the Pyrex safety door on the incubator, and the handle on the door. In the middle of the photo the mesh anode and the cooling tube are clearly seen. I am not sure where the black rubber sealing ring on the bottom came from. I believe the remains of the glass funnel are poking out of the top of the black rubber stopper, and one shard of glass below the stopper is also from the funnel, I think. The insulated tube on the top right is the condenser. See the figures and sketches in: http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/MizunoTgeneration.pdf - Jed --=====================_23279406==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" I have not got around to uploading the report, but I thought people here might want to see the high-resolution digital photograph of the accident. It is uploaded here:

http://www.lenr-canr.org/images/MizunoAccident.JPG

The object in the left foreground is the Pyrex safety door on the incubator, and the handle on the door. In the middle of the photo the mesh anode and the cooling tube are clearly seen. I am not sure where the black rubber sealing ring on the bottom came from. I believe the remains of the glass funnel are poking out of the top of the black rubber stopper, and one shard of glass below the stopper is also from the funnel, I think. The insulated tube on the top right is the condenser. See the figures and sketches in:

http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/MizunoTgeneration.pdf

- Jed
--=====================_23279406==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 26 12:48:53 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0QKmZ1m010993; Wed, 26 Jan 2005 12:48:35 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0QKmWwj010963; Wed, 26 Jan 2005 12:48:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 12:48:32 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20050126124904.0468e6e8 mail.dlsi.net> X-Sender: steven%newenergytimes.com mail.dlsi.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 12:50:19 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: Accident photo uploaded In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050126152710.02a9ac30 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57288 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: The radial pattern of the bottom of they pyrex is interesting. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 26 13:25:29 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0QLPJ1m028054; Wed, 26 Jan 2005 13:25:20 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0QLPEvu028026; Wed, 26 Jan 2005 13:25:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 13:25:14 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.1.2.0.2.20050126142410.01ddf160 w-mail.lanl.gov> X-Sender: u101256 w-mail.lanl.gov X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.2.0 Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 14:25:07 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Thomas N. Claytor" Subject: Re: Accident Report from Mizuno In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050126141846.02a35788 pop.mindspring.com> References: <05012608342707.30586 isis> <6.2.0.14.2.20050126141846.02a35788 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_18211859==.ALT" X-PMX-Version: 4.7.0.111621 X-PMX-Version: 4.7.0.111621 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57289 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --=====================_18211859==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Jed, do you have Vinceno's email ? Tom. >Vincenzo Iorio, who is also doing glow discharge experiments, made the >following comments: > >"I believe that the explosion is due to an accumulation of gas (H2 and O2) >. . . > >I also want to recommend to everybody to be very careful to the gases that >are produced in the cell during the trial. I have noted production of >thallium in the gas. This element is very toxic. I also want to recommend >to put a screen in transparent Plexiglas of 1 cm thickness in front of >the experimental apparatus." > > >- Jed http://www.nde.lanl.gov/staff/claytor/claytor.htm Thomas N. Claytor Ph. D. Claytor lanl.gov Los Alamos National Laboratory ESA-AET, MS C914 Los Alamos NM, 87545 505-667-6216 voice 505-665-7176 fax Shipping Address: Thomas N. Claytor Los Alamos National Lab Receiving/SM 30 Bikini Atoll Rd Los Alamos NM 87545 Attention: Drop Point 01S --=====================_18211859==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
Jed, do you have Vinceno's email ?
Tom.



Vincenzo Iorio, who is also doing glow discharge experiments, made the following comments:

"I believe that the explosion is due to an accumulation of gas (H2 and O2) . . .

I also want to recommend to everybody to be very careful to the gases that are produced in the cell during the trial. I have noted production of thallium in the gas. This element is very toxic. I also want to recommend to put a screen in transparent Plexiglas of 1 cm thickness  in front of the experimental apparatus."


- Jed

http://www.nde.lanl.gov/staff/claytor/claytor.htm
Thomas N. Claytor  Ph. D. Claytor lanl.gov
Los Alamos National Laboratory
ESA-AET, MS C914
Los Alamos NM, 87545
505-667-6216 voice
505-665-7176 fax

Shipping Address:

Thomas N. Claytor
Los Alamos National Lab
Receiving/SM 30
Bikini Atoll Rd
Los Alamos NM 87545
Attention: Drop Point 01S


 --=====================_18211859==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 26 13:36:51 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0QLaa1m031936; Wed, 26 Jan 2005 13:36:36 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0QLaXfD031913; Wed, 26 Jan 2005 13:36:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 13:36:33 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: <0e3c38f2-56ec-47ac-bcb7-d35bad3ac7e6> Message-ID: <00ed01c503ef$109451f0$ea49ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050126092058.02ac1530 pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Accident Report from Mizuno Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 16:11:06 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57290 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed wrote: > [I will upload an Acrobat version of this report that includes photographs.] > > Accident Report > > Tadahiko Mizuno > Division of Quantum Energy Engineering, > Research group of Nuclear System Engineering > Hokkaido University > E-mail: mizuno qe.eng.hokudai.ac.jp > > On January 24, 2005 at around 4:00 p.m. an explosion occurred during a > plasma electrolysis experiment being performed by Mizuno in the Quantum > Energy Engineering Section. > > The cell was a 1000 cc Pyrex glass vessel which has been in use for about 5 > years. It contained 700 cc of 0.2M K2CO3 electrolyte; a platinum mesh > anode; and a tungsten cathode wire 1.5 mm in diameter, 29 cm long, with 3 > cm exposed to the electrolyte. Electrolyte temperature was 20 deg C. The > cell was placed inside a constant temperature air-cooled incubator (Yamato > 1L-6) with the outer door open, and the inner Plexiglas safety door closed. > The experimental setup is described in Ref. 1. The event occurred in the > early stage of the experiment before a plasma normally forms. Soon after > ordinary electrolysis began, voltage was increased to 20 V and current to > 1.5 A. 5 or 6 seconds later, a bright white flash was seen on the lower > portion of the cathode. The light expanded and at the same instant the cell > exploded. > > The explosion blew open the Plexiglas safety door and spread shards of > Pyrex glass and electrolyte up to 5 ~ 6 m into the surrounding area. > > When the explosion occurred, Mizuno and a guest visiting the laboratory > (who wishes to remain anonymous) were observing the cell about 1 m from the > incubator. They were wounded in the face, neck, arms and chest by shards of > glass 1 ~ 5 cm long. Fortunately, there were no injuries to their eyes. The > injuries are light, and they are expected to recover in a week. However, > the explosion made such a tremendous noise both victims were temporarily > rendered completely deaf. It is not known whether this will have any > after-effects. Plasma electrolysis with K2CO3 can produce both K+ ions and H atoms which can enter into a catalytic reaction with very strong energy release as discovered by Mills. The reaction can occur with both H and D atoms, as it inolves the electron, not the nucleus. From the early days of CF, Mills reported excess heat from K2CO3 electrolytic cells. More recently strong energy release has been seen in a gas phase with a K2CO3 catalyst. This reaction may occur in addition to CF reactions in Mizuno's cell. > > > Possible Causes > > The vessel was old and may have had a scratch on the inner surface. That does not account for the initiating flash under the surface of the electrolyte. > > The effluent hydrogen and oxygen were mixed in the cell headspace. There 2 > ~ 3 cc of hydrogen at the time, although this is an open cell so only > minimal amounts of gas remain in the headspace. The flash was below the surface of the electrolyte.> > It is possible that the tungsten cathode may have been exposed to the gas > in the headspace. Why is this relevant? The 2K+/H or 2K+/D reactions found by Mills may be present in all these cells. Why it would act in the reported way is unclear. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 26 13:45:04 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0QLiZ1m003114; Wed, 26 Jan 2005 13:44:36 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0QLiU7L003072; Wed, 26 Jan 2005 13:44:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 13:44:30 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050126162136.02a9ad78 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 16:40:20 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Will future war be fought over energy? In-Reply-To: <1e2.33f5bece.2f28f2c0 aol.com> References: <1e2.33f5bece.2f28f2c0 aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_27382421==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57291 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --=====================_27382421==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Baronvolsung aol.com wrote: > The James Bond movie, The man with the golden gun, showed that a solar > cell with 95 percent efficiency had been invented by 1973, but is kept > classified, so that we can be assured that solar cell efficiency will > improve . . . Yo, Baron: That was a MOVIE. It was FAKE. All James Bond movies are full of technically preposterous nonsense. They do not "assure" anything about anyone. 95% efficient solar cells did not exist in 1973, and they do not exist now. In fact, solar cells hardly produce any energy. Mainly they function as batteries, moving energy from the solar cell factory to the location where it is needed. Over the life of a solar cell, the cell produces roughly 2 or 3 times more energy than it took to manufacture it. A wind turbine used for 20 years produces about 80 times more energy than it takes to manufacture and build the turbine. Solar cells are made from scrap silicon rejected by a computer chip manufacturers. If they were not, they would be much more expensive, and they would probably be an energy sink, like ethanol. Solar cell production is small and there is enough scrap silicon for all production, but if we were to expand the use of solar cells we would have to refine silicon from scratch. - Jed --=====================_27382421==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Baronvolsung aol.com wrote:

 The James Bond movie, The man with the golden gun, showed that a solar cell with 95 percent efficiency had been invented by 1973, but is kept classified, so that we can be assured that solar cell efficiency will improve . . .

Yo, Baron: That was a MOVIE. It was FAKE. All James Bond movies are full of technically preposterous nonsense. They do not "assure" anything about anyone. 95% efficient solar cells did not exist in 1973, and they do not exist now.

In fact, solar cells hardly produce any energy. Mainly they function as batteries, moving energy from the solar cell factory to the location where it is needed. Over the life of a solar cell, the cell produces roughly 2 or 3 times more energy than it took to manufacture it. A wind turbine used for 20 years produces about 80 times more energy than it takes to manufacture and build the turbine.

Solar cells are made from scrap silicon rejected by a computer chip manufacturers. If they were not, they would be much more expensive, and they would probably be an energy sink, like ethanol. Solar cell production is small and there is enough scrap silicon for all production, but if we were to expand the use of solar cells we would have to refine silicon from scratch.

- Jed
 --=====================_27382421==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 26 13:58:20 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0QLw61m011943; Wed, 26 Jan 2005 13:58:07 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0QLw4Zv011906; Wed, 26 Jan 2005 13:58:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 13:58:04 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050126164608.02af3aa8 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 16:57:49 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Accident Report from Mizuno In-Reply-To: <00ed01c503ef$109451f0$ea49ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050126092058.02ac1530 pop.mindspring.com> <00ed01c503ef$109451f0$ea49ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_28202093==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57292 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --=====================_28202093==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Mike Carrell wrote: > > Possible Causes > > > > The vessel was old and may have had a scratch on the inner surface. > >That does not account for the initiating flash under the surface of the >electrolyte. No, it does not. The event happened in an instant, there is no video, and I do not think Mizuno is fully confident of that visual observation, so he listed other possible causes. He said the flash started at the bottom, and then seemed to fill the whole vessel "in slow motion" and then the vessel flew apart. (I suspect the slow-motion part may have been caused by his own heightened perception. People in accidents often report this phenomenon. I suspect it is imposed on the short term memory after the fact, but that is getting off the subject.) >The flash was below the surface of the electrolyte.> > > > It is possible that the tungsten cathode may have been exposed to the gas > > in the headspace. > >Why is this relevant? Well, Mizuno wrote that document and I just translated it, but my guess is that he is simply listing every likely source of the accident. McKubre commented that any exposed metal can cause a recombination explosion: ". . . I found it is impossible to impress on people just how explosive a stoichiometric mix of H2 and O2 is. Even a few cc's can be dangerous - even deadly. You don't need to search for an ignition source - any metal will do." >The 2K+/H or 2K+/D reactions found by Mills may be present in all these >cells. Why it would act in the reported way is unclear. Mizuno is unfamiliar with Mills and would not list a hydrino event among the likely causes. Perhaps glow discharge began at an unusually low voltage, and a glow discharge spark ignited the gas. But as I said, if it turns out he was still using the funnel, that certainly puts the kibosh on the recombination explosion hypothesis. - Jed --=====================_28202093==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Mike Carrell wrote:

> Possible Causes
>
> The vessel was old and may have had a scratch on the inner surface.

That does not account for the initiating flash under the surface of the
electrolyte.

No, it does not. The event happened in an instant, there is no video, and I do not think Mizuno is fully confident of that visual observation, so he listed other possible causes. He said the flash started at the bottom, and then seemed to fill the whole vessel "in slow motion" and then the vessel flew apart.

(I suspect the slow-motion part may have been caused by his own heightened perception. People in accidents often report this phenomenon. I suspect it is imposed on the short term memory after the fact, but that is getting off the subject.)


The flash was below the surface of the electrolyte.>

> It is possible that the tungsten cathode may have been exposed to the gas
> in the headspace.

Why is this relevant?

Well, Mizuno wrote that document and I just translated it, but my guess is that he is simply listing every  likely source of the accident. McKubre commented that any exposed metal can cause a recombination explosion:

". . . I found it is impossible to impress on people just how explosive a stoichiometric mix of H2 and O2 is.  Even a few cc's can be dangerous - even deadly.  You don't need to search for an ignition source - any metal will do."


The 2K+/H or 2K+/D reactions found by Mills may be present in all these
cells. Why it would act in the reported way is unclear.

Mizuno is unfamiliar with Mills and would not list a hydrino event among the likely causes.

Perhaps glow discharge began at an unusually low voltage, and a glow discharge spark ignited the gas.

But as I said, if it turns out he was still using the funnel, that certainly puts the kibosh on the recombination explosion hypothesis.

- Jed
--=====================_28202093==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 26 14:51:35 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0QMpN1m010725; Wed, 26 Jan 2005 14:51:23 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0QMpIQf010667; Wed, 26 Jan 2005 14:51:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 14:51:18 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000c01c503f9$8993ec00$0500a8c0 nixlaptop> From: "Nick Palmer" To: References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050126092058.02ac1530 pop.mindspring.com> <00ed01c503ef$109451f0$ea49ccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> Subject: Re: Accident Report from Mizuno Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 22:51:09 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57293 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: test - please ignore From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 26 15:53:48 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0QNrZ1m006358; Wed, 26 Jan 2005 15:53:35 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0QNrSQH006301; Wed, 26 Jan 2005 15:53:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 15:53:28 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=pgCjRmq2pgiBccHVUK8gMx9SNYICT1WGNYnrpl2/sKrs2KNKD92HM8KMbJuurJABILSj0k4M0UinAaP+xJTweAUmQMkQyVv9Dru4PmBCD04RCD8wrmjlPAn0ThSeiBxe2x0ULHpQXdugkeQHtSdUm5m3c0wDmQi5faQL0ylgJR0= ; Message-ID: <20050126235319.47156.qmail web51708.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 15:53:19 -0800 (PST) From: Terry Blanton Subject: Re: Accident Report from Mizuno To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <00ed01c503ef$109451f0$ea49ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57294 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --- Mike Carrell wrote: > The 2K+/H or 2K+/D reactions found by Mills may be > present in all these > cells. Why it would act in the reported way is > unclear. Is there a hydrino formation mechanism which would result in a "bright white flash"? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 26 15:59:36 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0QNx51m009134; Wed, 26 Jan 2005 15:59:05 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0QNx287009090; Wed, 26 Jan 2005 15:59:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 15:59:02 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=N5XyCOmZqWwYJdqrDpEObzXWcdoqamPSyqgPSMeLZTrWsR9eHO/xddek2RQ7jTfiLTxiRP+sOrp2X/YK4WfXjngSlhDUfoIFGFxl53e6atc9uDovMkE2KWIut6sNZnlvRY1nX/ysFSU8LtE+4eyMZefxPehQHtrovB6d9HYkWZA= ; Message-ID: <20050126235850.78967.qmail web51707.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 15:58:50 -0800 (PST) From: Terry Blanton Subject: Re: Accident Report from Mizuno To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050126164608.02af3aa8 pop.mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57295 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --- Jed Rothwell wrote: > Mizuno is unfamiliar with Mills and would not list a > hydrino event among > the likely causes. The way the pyrex broke implies a rapid overpressure event. Wasn't that a stopper a good pressure relief valve? I think that was one helluva shockwave! Pity the event isn't on video. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 26 17:35:49 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0R1Zb1T021761; Wed, 26 Jan 2005 17:35:38 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0R1ZZKq021746; Wed, 26 Jan 2005 17:35:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 17:35:35 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000e01c50410$7d7b5630$f9017841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: Physics today 1/25/05 feder Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 19:35:31 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000A_01C503DE.3258F180"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-99.8 required=4.0 tests=HTML_50_60,HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57296 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C503DE.3258F180 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000B_01C503DE.325BFEC0" ------=_NextPart_001_000B_01C503DE.325BFEC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankSteve, I may pose the question.. do you have any evidence they are = NOT ? The industrial world is busy, ask Siemems, Toshiba or Boeing/GE Richard ------=_NextPart_001_000B_01C503DE.325BFEC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Steve, I may pose the question.. do you have = any=20 evidence they are NOT ?
 
The industrial world is busy, ask Siemems, = Toshiba or=20 Boeing/GE
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_000B_01C503DE.325BFEC0-- ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C503DE.3258F180 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000901c50410$7cea39c0$f9017841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C503DE.3258F180-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 26 18:06:01 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0R25T1T000551; Wed, 26 Jan 2005 18:05:30 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0R25R4F000520; Wed, 26 Jan 2005 18:05:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 18:05:27 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20050126180518.046c95b8 mail.dlsi.net> X-Sender: steven%newenergytimes.com mail.dlsi.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 18:06:57 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: Physics today 1/25/05 feder In-Reply-To: <000e01c50410$7d7b5630$f9017841 xptower> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_106299546==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57297 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_106299546==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed No, I don't. I guess I approach things differently. I don't make statements about the cold fusion field unless I have evidence to back them up. At 07:35 PM 1/26/2005 -0600, you wrote: >Steve, I may pose the question.. do you have any evidence they are NOT ? > >The industrial world is busy, ask Siemems, Toshiba or Boeing/GE > >Richard > > > --=====================_106299546==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" No, I don't.
I guess I approach things differently.
I don't make statements about the cold fusion field unless I have evidence to back them up.

At 07:35 PM 1/26/2005 -0600, you wrote:
Steve, I may pose the question.. do you have any evidence they are NOT ?
 
The industrial world is busy, ask Siemems, Toshiba or Boeing/GE
 
Richard

 

--=====================_106299546==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 26 18:42:53 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0R2gh86020813; Wed, 26 Jan 2005 18:42:43 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0R2geKC020778; Wed, 26 Jan 2005 18:42:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 18:42:40 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000c01c50419$dc95de70$77027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re:Physics today 1/25/05 feder Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 20:42:35 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0008_01C503E7.9140F810"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-99.8 required=4.0 tests=HTML_50_60,HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57298 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C503E7.9140F810 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0009_01C503E7.91427EB0" ------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C503E7.91427EB0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankSteve, I take no offense to your remarks. I understand you are a = newsman and want all the information you can get. I gave you a source for the evidence.=20 Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C503E7.91427EB0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Steve, I take no offense to your remarks. I = understand=20 you are a newsman and want all the information you can get.
 
I gave you a source for the  evidence.=20
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C503E7.91427EB0-- ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C503E7.9140F810 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000701c50419$dbd0b9b0$77027841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C503E7.9140F810-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 26 20:40:33 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0R4eNbD006780; Wed, 26 Jan 2005 20:40:23 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0R4eLUc006766; Wed, 26 Jan 2005 20:40:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 20:40:21 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Accident Report from Mizuno Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 15:40:11 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <00ed01c503ef$109451f0$ea49ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> <20050126235319.47156.qmail@web51708.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20050126235319.47156.qmail web51708.mail.yahoo.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j0R4eIbD006732 Resent-Message-ID: <7oQof.A.ppB.1CH-BB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57299 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Terry Blanton's message of Wed, 26 Jan 2005 15:53:19 -0800: Hi, > >--- Mike Carrell wrote: > >> The 2K+/H or 2K+/D reactions found by Mills may be >> present in all these >> cells. Why it would act in the reported way is >> unclear. > >Is there a hydrino formation mechanism which would >result in a "bright white flash"? [snip] Possibly. In an old cell, hydrinos, or their compounds may have been accumulating for a long time. In such a situation, a nuclear reaction may result with release of energetic particles. Such energetic particles can ionise many oxygen atoms to the 2+ state, resulting in a localized high density of Mills catalyst, which in turn can rapidly catalyze the shrinkage of hydrogen atoms, with the energy release noted. An initial nuclear reaction is not necessary, if a cosmic ray acts as trigger. The effect will produce about 100 - 1000 times more energy than would normally be produced by combustion of hydrogen in the head space. Qua explosive yield this seems to be about the right order of magnitude. The effect could start under water and spread upward, if it consumed the local supply of hydrogen attached to the cathode as small bubbles. Once the plasma discharge has started, there are no more bubbles, so this may only work prior to the onset of the plasma discharge, (which of course matches the description). The effect may rely on the occurrence of the occasional nuclear reaction to reach an explosive rate of energy production. This is turn implies that it may require the prior presence of many severely shrunken hydrinos, such as may be present on the inner surface of a cell that has been in use for years. It may be possible to reproduce it using the remnants of the same cell, as it's not likely that all the shrunken hydrinos were consumed the first time around. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 27 00:07:43 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0R87X0s013836; Thu, 27 Jan 2005 00:07:34 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0R87UN8013813; Thu, 27 Jan 2005 00:07:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 00:07:30 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 23:16:37 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re:Physics today 1/25/05 feder Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57300 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 8:42 PM 1/26/5, RC Macaulay wrote: >BlankSteve, I take no offense to your remarks. I understand you are a >newsman and want all the information you can get. > >I gave you a source for the evidence. > >Richard Are you saying "ask Siemems, Toshiba or Boeing/GE" consititutes your source? Or did I miss some reference? Were these companies the source of your information. The subject assertions are reposted below. At 7:41 PM 1/25/5, RC Macaulay wrote: >BlankOutside the University atmosphere, there are many Cf programs taking >place in the industrial labs within the USA as well as the world. > >The USA programs are unpublished because they are under NSA guidelines. >The Japanese are working at warp speed on the same within their >Universities as well as their industrial labs. Most progress over the past >10 years remain below radar. [snip] > >Richard Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 27 01:42:42 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0R9gVsS015490; Thu, 27 Jan 2005 01:42:31 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0R9gTno015474; Thu, 27 Jan 2005 01:42:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 01:42:29 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Ultrafunk Popcorn release 1.47 (30-July-2003) X-URL: http://www.ultrafunk.com/products/popcorn/ X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 10:41:41 +0100 From: Michael Huffman To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Physics today 1/25/05 feder Reply-To: knuke sumosound.de Message-Id: X-Provags-ID: kundenserver.de abuse kundenserver.de auth:b76291440de0a671bf17bfec730be47d Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57301 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Gnorts! One of the misconceptions regarding the research done by private industry is that private industry would publish their work, or even let it be known that work was being done in a particular field by that industry in the first place. Private industry only reports on what it does if it is legally required to do so, or if there is some kind of public relations advantage to informing the public of its actions. The above is true for every aspect of its operation from payroll to tax accounting procedures to suppliers to the names of the members of the board of directors, etc., etc.. Research direction is particularly well hidden so as not to tip off the competition as to any new products that may be introduced in the future. This is just the way private industry operates. If you want to get an indication of how many people, and sometimes even the identities of the people or organizations, who are doing research in your particular field, simply publish your work, and then read the logs on your computer firewall. You will find the addresses of the computers that are trying to gain access to your computer. In many cases, you can trace the numerical addresses back directly to the registered owners of those addresses. It was a hobby of mine for quite some time, and I must say, it was fascinating. University high energy physics labs, heavy industry companies, energy consultant firms, engineering companies, domestic and foreign governments, all will want to get into your computer to find out more about who you are and exactly what you are doing. Practically none (and believe me, I have looked hard...) of these entities ever published a single word about their own endeavors in the field. In the few cases where they did, the information was very general and usually written to attract new shareholders or generate sales of their own technologies. To say that the industrial world is not investigating cold fusion just because you don't read about it in the Wall Street Journal is extremely naive. The levels of funding, the names of the scientists, and who they are working for are a matter of speculation unless, of course, you can fund your own industrial espionage effort. The fact remains, however, that the number and frequency of attempts to gain access to your particular research efforts are a good indication that serious efforts are underway by private industry in this field. It is also proof that these entities still feel that theft of intellectual property is quite often cheaper and faster than doing the original research themselves. Knuke From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 27 04:35:55 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0RCZlsS012879; Thu, 27 Jan 2005 04:35:47 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0RCZATZ012597; Thu, 27 Jan 2005 04:35:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 04:35:10 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=kFBJA9PCFOLAWbA0zCXWke/Lz6ZI8mxFj0JyIODQYK4+MbUDiAnPz0mk+0B5YJOF; Message-ID: <410-220051427113453220 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Fluorescent Tube Drift Velocity & Hooper's Flyer Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 05:34:53 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9404117d9970c018a0c72dfc4cfa3bfa4d5350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.141 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57302 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII W. J. Hooper's solid conductor drift velocity antigravity (Checked by Marc G. Millis at NASA GRC with Null Results, vs an $8.00 Circular 40 watt 100 volt DC Fluorescent Bulb plasma discharge. Using the Equations: 1, Current Density (J) = Current ( I ) /Area 2, Drift Velocity (v) = Current Density/Number of +and - charges/meter^3 * unit of charge. 3, number of + and - charges at ~ 10 millitorr ( ~10 microns) ~ = 2x10^16 per cubic meter For the $ 8.00 Circular Fluorescent tube, Area = 0.00114 square meters Current ( I ) = 0.5 amps DC Current Density ( J ) = 0.5/0.00114 = 438.56 Amperes per Square Meter. Drift Velocity ( v) = 438.56/2e16*1.6e-19 = 137,050 Meters per second. OR: Electron Temperature ~= 0.5 eV v = 419,314 Meters per second. This is why you see those light displays when the "Greys" are checking us out. :-) Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

W. J. Hooper's solid conductor drift velocity antigravity  (Checked
by Marc G. Millis at NASA GRC with Null Results, vs an $8.00   Circular 40 watt  100 volt
DC Fluorescent Bulb plasma discharge.
 
Using the Equations:
 
1,   Current Density (J) = Current  ( I ) /Area
 
2,  Drift Velocity (v) =    Current Density/Number of +and - charges/meter^3 * unit of charge.
 
3, number of + and - charges at ~ 10 millitorr  ( ~10 microns) ~ = 2x10^16 per cubic meter
 
For the $ 8.00 Circular Fluorescent tube,   Area = 0.00114 square meters
 
Current ( I ) = 0.5 amps DC
 
Current Density ( J ) =   0.5/0.00114 = 438.56 Amperes per Square Meter.
 
Drift Velocity ( v) =   438.56/2e16*1.6e-19  =  137,050  Meters per second.
 
OR:   Electron Temperature  ~= 0.5 eV      v = 419,314  Meters per second.
 
This is why you see those light displays when the "Greys" are checking us out.   :-)
 
Frederick

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 27 06:04:22 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0RE4DsS013859; Thu, 27 Jan 2005 06:04:13 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0RE41EQ013706; Thu, 27 Jan 2005 06:04:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 06:04:01 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.1.2.0.0.20050127081136.00ba7978 pop.theworld.com> X-Sender: mica pop.theworld.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.2.0 Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 08:52:27 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Physics Today 1/25/05 - Feder In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050126094013.02a9ad78 pop.mindspring.com> References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050124154117.02ae1a08 pop.mindspring.com> <6.1.2.0.0.20050125072714.00ba7948 pop.theworld.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050125150128.02a7d6b0 pop.mindspring.com> <6.1.2.0.0.20050125194400.020ceb20 pop.theworld.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050126094013.02a9ad78 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <_U5tC.A.FWD.QTP-BB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57303 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 09:52 AM 1/26/2005, Jed Rothwell, as usual, confuses the subject and is disingenuous, wrote: >Mitchell Swartz wrote: > >>Second, some of the very papers which contain controls and >>time-integration are not present >>at the censored (and misnamed) LENR-CANR.org site. > >Well, in that case, whoever wrote these very papers should upload them >somewhere else -- or submit them to LENR-CANR.org. The site is not >censored, and the Internet *cannot be censored*. Google makes it "flat" >with all papers equally accessible. Nonsense. Rothwell is not accurate, and his use of confidential email and a non-relevant paper from ICCF-9 which was NEVER an issue are immaterial. Rothwell's banter does not change the fact that he and Ed Storm's removed the titles of our three papers (and reportedly others) from the ICCF10 "list of papers" at the censored (and misnamed) LENR-CANR site. [Background: FWIW, our two papers which used the controls and time-integration demanded by the DOE group and have been censored by Storms/Rothwell are Swartz. M., G. Verner, "Excess Heat from Low Electrical Conductivity Heavy Water Spiral-Wound Pd/D2O/Pt and Pd/D2O-PdCl2/Pt Devices", ICCF-10 (Camb. MA), Proceedings of ICCF-10, (2003), and Swartz. M., "Photoinduced Excess Heat from Laser-Irradiated Electrically-Polarized Palladium Cathodes in D2O", ICCF-10 (Camb. MA), Proceedings of ICCF-10, (2003). Interesting that both papers listed originally for ICCF10, and assigned Monday and Tuesday for the dates. They were thereafter deleted from the censored LENR/CANR website.] Because these titles WERE originally on the list, and because those who actually conducted ICCF-10 have written that they are disappointed by the Storms/Rothwell mischief, it is apparent that the censorship of the misnamed LENR-CANR site exists. BTW, this Rothwell/Storms censorship has been confirmed in conversations by them to others, and it has been discussed by the late Dr. Mallove, just as it has been of concern to others who responded to me by private email after a previous net-discussion of the Rothwell-Storms censorships. "This is known as science by politics -- it is disgusting. Storms doesn't have leg to stand on and he knows it." - the late Dr. Eugene Mallove In summary, those who rely only on Rothwell for "information" eventually will, or have, become aware that many of his posts should have a warning label with them. Dr. Mitchell Swartz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 27 06:19:14 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0REIwsS019561; Thu, 27 Jan 2005 06:18:58 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0REIuNY019544; Thu, 27 Jan 2005 06:18:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 06:18:56 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=cYkXte9+5S7/nkbvSTYtLuxYNqpUvf/ohcSNQA7Wvc4bd+hKu991Jp8WKw0mTbTK; Message-ID: <410-220051427131840570 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Stay Cool Jed, Beware of External Influences Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 07:18:40 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94079b95c9f71fcd249158048184fce312c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.120.213 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57304 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII http://www.almanac.com/astronomy/moon/index.php First Quarter: 17th day, 1st hour, 57th minute Full Moon: 25th day, 5th hour, 32nd minute Go Figure. Hope this helps. :-) Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

 
First Quarter: 17th day, 1st hour, 57th minute
Full Moon: 25th day, 5th hour, 32nd minute
 
Go Figure.
 
Hope this helps.   :-)
 
Frederick

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 27 06:21:43 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0RELFsS020917; Thu, 27 Jan 2005 06:21:15 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0RELC0A020889; Thu, 27 Jan 2005 06:21:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 06:21:12 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001f01c5047b$724d1530$0100007f xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: Physics today 1/25/05 feder Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 08:20:27 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001B_01C50449.0ED4ADB0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-99.2 required=4.0 tests=HTML_30_40,HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57305 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C50449.0ED4ADB0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_001C_01C50449.0ED4ADB0" ------=_NextPart_001_001C_01C50449.0ED4ADB0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankKnuke said it better than me. Back in 1965 our company paid $1000 = bucks for a Friden " colonel Boggy" mechanical calculator, the big boy = with a thousand gears, an absolute work of art in mechanical computing = for flow equations. Within a year or two, we bought a Sharp electronic calculator that = handled square root etc. for $ 250 bucks. In turn TI introduce the = pocket calc and POOF !! Friden was no more. What happened to this = beautiful manufacturing company.. later Singer bought them and last I = heard they were making postage machines. The point is that Friden is one of the prime examples of the changes = wrought by technology in the everyday office preceding the computer = revolution. It demonstrated that manufacturing companies can be thrown = out with the trash just like a big mac carton. Big business are painfully aware of their vulnerability and are not = asleep.. well.. errr..=20 Richard ------=_NextPart_001_001C_01C50449.0ED4ADB0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Knuke said it better than me.  Back in = 1965 our=20 company paid $1000 bucks for  a Friden " colonel Boggy" mechanical=20 calculator,  the big boy with a thousand gears, an absolute = work of=20 art in mechanical computing for flow equations.
Within a year or two, we bought a Sharp = electronic=20 calculator that handled square root etc. for $ 250 bucks. In turn TI = introduce=20 the pocket calc and POOF !!  Friden was no more.  What = happened to=20 this beautiful manufacturing company.. later Singer bought them and last = I heard=20 they were making postage machines.
 
The point is that Friden is one of the prime = examples of=20 the changes wrought by technology in the everyday office preceding the = computer=20 revolution. It demonstrated that manufacturing companies can be thrown = out with=20 the trash just like a big mac carton.
 
Big business are painfully aware of their = vulnerability=20 and are not asleep.. well.. errr..
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_001C_01C50449.0ED4ADB0-- ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C50449.0ED4ADB0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <001a01c5047b$596c1070$0100007f xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C50449.0ED4ADB0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 27 06:49:23 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0REn6sS001839; Thu, 27 Jan 2005 06:49:11 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0REn4eV001808; Thu, 27 Jan 2005 06:49:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 06:49:04 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=mcmOZla2WUVWDhyDpMYmT3Xuzm7EkVB7MU/yqR797p22S161FzAymq+pgqKGgPXW; Message-ID: <410-220051427134848160 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Fluorescent Tube Drift Velocity & Hooper's Flyer Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 07:48:48 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940973c0873e21f673c9db282cf787255b2350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.159.33 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57307 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Germane information to ponder: http://www.maxwellsociety.net/contents.htm http://www.maxwellsociety.net/PhysicsCorner/CurrentLoopPolarization/ElectromagnetismAndRotationalRelativity.html http://www.maxwellsociety.net/PhysicsCorner/CurrentLoopPolarization/ElectroAndPermanentMagnets.html http://www.maxwellsociety.net/PhysicsCorner/Electrodynamics/GualaValverde%20Explanation.html And more. Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

Germane information to ponder:
 
 
 
 
 
And more.
 
Frederick
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 27 07:00:48 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0RF0YsS007356; Thu, 27 Jan 2005 07:00:35 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0RF0W6Z007335; Thu, 27 Jan 2005 07:00:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 07:00:32 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: From: "Johnson, Steven" To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Cc: "Johnson, Steven" Subject: RE: Will future war be fought over energy? Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 09:00:22 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-PMX-Version: 4.6.0.99824, Antispam-Core: 4.6.1.104326, Antispam-Data: 2005.1.27.3 Resent-Message-ID: <15AxpC.A.gyB.QIQ-BB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57308 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: From: Baronvolsung ... > The James Bond movies and books secretly encode factual secret shadow > governmental operations that have occurred as a means to communicate > the ideas publicly. One of the James Bond movies called Diamonds are > Forever, shows that Texas, and the USA were taken over and held hostage > by some United Kingdom Nazi reptilian's (Called Dragon Lady in the > James Bond movie) around 1971 by means of laser beams, and even shows > that the NASA (Nazi) space operations on the moon in Texas were faked > and staged and filmed in Texas, by secret Nazi groups and companies in > Texas. The above The Man with the Golden Gun James Bond movie, shows > that Asia had perfected a solar cell that is 95 percent efficient, to > be used on Islands to threaten the USA with laser beams and take the > USA hostage secretly around 1973 during the Vietnam war. > > We still have problems with Texas especially the space center in > Houston, being controlled and used by shadow governmental Israeli > and UK foreign powers, Mexicans, Russians, and criminal Mafia powers > to use the space resources and beam weapons space technologies against > USA citizens and government agents to hold them hostage which will be > countered by a civil war in USA in the next few years to reclaim the > Houston space center from foreign power control according to emails > that I received from German intelligence, and time travelers. > Baron Von Volsung, www.rhfweb.com\baron, Email: www.rhfweb.com\emailform.html > President Thomas D. Clark, Email: www.rhfweb.com\emailform.html, > Personal Web Page: www.rhfweb.com\personal > New Age Production's Inc., www.rhfweb.com\newage > Star Haven Community Services, at www.rhfweb.com\sh. > Radiation Health Foundation Trust at www.rhfweb.com > > Making a difference one person at a time > Get informed. Inform others. Might I suggest that making a difference, in this world, one person at a time often starts with acquiring a better understanding of one's personal interpretation of Modern Mythology. Unfortunately, literal translations of one's personal mythology tends to only generate dogma and fundamentalism, one person at a time. Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 27 07:24:44 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0RFOPsS020126; Thu, 27 Jan 2005 07:24:25 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0RFOMkL020085; Thu, 27 Jan 2005 07:24:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 07:24:22 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001c01c50483$9035d0c0$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: , References: Subject: Re: Physics today 1/25/05 Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 07:19:14 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57309 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ahoy, > If you want to get an indication of how many people, and sometimes even the identities of the people or organizations, who are doing research in your particular field, simply publish your work, and then read the logs on your computer firewall. You will find the addresses of the computers that are trying to gain access to your computer. In many cases, you can trace the numerical addresses back directly to the registered owners of those addresses. It was a hobby of mine for quite some time, and I must say, it was fascinating. Yes. Also note how many of them are registered in the norther Virginia area, presumably to certain "contractors". For instance, why do computers registered to Marriott subsidiaries keep wanting to get into my computer? 150 attempts one month. I don't think it has anything to do with hotel management. The scary thing is, who own's the one's that cannot be tracked? Even scarier is now that K_ _ ke has signed back onto vortex from a Euro ISP, the unauthorized attempts will probably increase ;-) Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 27 07:24:56 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0RFOfsS020336; Thu, 27 Jan 2005 07:24:45 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0RFObYw020280; Thu, 27 Jan 2005 07:24:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 07:24:37 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <003101c5047f$190f06a0$6601a8c0 msns.flt.ptd.net> From: "revtec" To: References: <12d.54b61f58.2f2a5778 aol.com> Subject: Re: Will future war be fought over energy? Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 09:47:14 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_002E_01C50455.2E0778A0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57310 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002E_01C50455.2E0778A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable All James Bond movies are full of technically preposterous = nonsense.=20 I considered contacting the people making the James Bond movies to = make them aware of the devices I produce for a living, since my stuff = would make a great prop for their movie, and it's real. But, as I = understand the system, they would want me to pay since it is a form of = advertizing. I have been on vortex from 1996 and have never stated what I do. = Forgive me for mentioning my company this once. www.stopthecrime.com ------=_NextPart_000_002E_01C50455.2E0778A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
 All James Bond movies are full of technically = preposterous=20 nonsense.
 
I considered contacting the people making the James Bond movies = to make=20 them aware of the devices I produce for a living, since my stuff = would make=20 a great prop for their movie, and it's real.  But, as I = understand the=20 system, they would want me to pay since it is a form of = advertizing.
 
I have been on vortex from 1996 and have never stated what = I=20 do.  Forgive me for mentioning my company this=20 once.     www.stopthecrime.com=20
------=_NextPart_000_002E_01C50455.2E0778A0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 27 07:30:15 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0RFU0sS023896; Thu, 27 Jan 2005 07:30:01 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0RFTvSK023869; Thu, 27 Jan 2005 07:29:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 07:29:57 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002901c50484$56578e60$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <00ed01c503ef$109451f0$ea49ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> <20050126235319.47156.qmail@web51708.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Accident Report from Mizuno Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 07:24:47 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: <3Urgf.A.40F.0jQ-BB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57311 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > The effect will produce about 100 - 1000 times more energy than would normally be produced by combustion of hydrogen in the head space. This may be related to the question of why certain interested parties in northern Virginia want to monitor what is in the personal computer files of Vortex subscribers.... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 27 07:38:59 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0RFcesS028242; Thu, 27 Jan 2005 07:38:40 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0RFcbWB028206; Thu, 27 Jan 2005 07:38:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 07:38:37 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type; b=juBUSWzPbP1O8PtnPuMGjzgbL/dvhqT8zWngrrOtqkkWhfxaAc4trTnLML6dzoE3; Message-ID: <410-220051427143816610 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Physics today 1/25/05 Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 08:38:16 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940e288b2f75bd33737ff1fc05635a01ed8350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.159.110 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57312 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: > Even scarier is now that K_ _ ke has > signed back onto vortex from a Euro ISP, the unauthorized > attempts will probably increase ;-) THAT IS SCARY. :-) Frederick > [Original Message] > From: Jones Beene > To: ; > Date: 1/27/05 9:24:25 AM > Subject: Re: Physics today 1/25/05 > > Ahoy, > > > If you want to get an indication of how many people, and > sometimes even the identities of the people or > organizations, who are doing research in your particular > field, simply publish your work, and then read the logs on > your computer firewall. You will find the addresses of the > computers that are trying to gain access to your computer. > In many cases, you can trace the numerical addresses back > directly to the registered owners of those addresses. It > was a hobby of mine for quite some time, and I must say, it > was fascinating. > > > Yes. Also note how many of them are registered in the > norther Virginia area, presumably to certain "contractors". > For instance, why do computers registered to Marriott > subsidiaries keep wanting to get into my computer? 150 > attempts one month. I don't think it has anything to do with > hotel management. The scary thing is, who own's the one's > that cannot be tracked? Even scarier is now that K_ _ ke has > signed back onto vortex from a Euro ISP, the unauthorized > attempts will probably increase ;-) > > Jones > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 27 08:29:50 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0RGTDsS026332; Thu, 27 Jan 2005 08:29:14 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0RGT9x5026287; Thu, 27 Jan 2005 08:29:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 08:29:09 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-BrightmailFiltered: true X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=FrTNGCQxPbv6m3h6bmVjDIyIROUSI5FbwigluMc66AO75e8SSLXrePFj7uIL4xkw; Message-ID: <410-220051427152845310 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Fluorescent Tube Drift Velocity & Hooper's Flyer Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 09:28:45 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940cc9fb77888d2e7c20825c74a0a829401350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.162.32 Resent-Message-ID: <9fJ-LB.A.laG.UbR-BB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57313 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII IF, there is any favorable levitation results from a circular fluorescent bulb (48 inch circumference) experiment 48 inch, 40 watt fluorescent bulbs can be arranged in a circle and 120 volts DC applied to each through an incandescent bulb "ballast resistor". A Hexagon will be about an 8 foot diameter circle (radius = chord) using six bulbs and a dodecagon using 12 bulbs (about $2.00 each) gives a circle about the diameter of a sports model "saucer". :-) Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

IF, there is any favorable levitation results from a circular fluorescent bulb (48 inch circumference)
experiment 48 inch, 40 watt fluorescent bulbs can be arranged in a circle and 120 volts DC
applied to each through an incandescent bulb "ballast resistor".
 
A Hexagon will be about an 8 foot diameter circle (radius = chord) using six bulbs
and a dodecagon using 12 bulbs (about $2.00 each) gives a circle about the diameter of
a sports model "saucer".   :-)
 
Frederick
 
 
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 27 08:33:30 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0RGWjsS028303; Thu, 27 Jan 2005 08:32:46 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0RGWXWP028178; Thu, 27 Jan 2005 08:32:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 08:32:33 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Baronvolsung aol.com Message-ID: <9a.1ed2befd.2f2a7186 aol.com> Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 11:32:06 EST Subject: Re: Will future war be fought over energy? To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_9a.1ed2befd.2f2a7186_boundary" X-Mailer: 6.0 sub 10578 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57314 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --part1_9a.1ed2befd.2f2a7186_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/27/05 7:01:09 AM Pacific Standard Time, steven.johnson dot.state.wi.us writes: > Might I suggest that making a difference, in this world, one person at a > time often starts with acquiring a better understanding of one's personal > interpretation of Modern Mythology. Unfortunately, literal translations of > one's personal mythology tends to only generate dogma and fundamentalism, > one person at a time. > > Steven Vincent Johnson > www.OrionWorks.com I'll stop posting such ideas at this list. I have spy's who kind of egg me on by getting me upset at them as a means of interrogation, which often causes me to post emails, and such ideas in response. Baron Von Volsung, www.rhfweb.com\baron, Email: www.rhfweb.com\emailform.html President Thomas D. Clark, Email: www.rhfweb.com\emailform.html, Personal Web Page: www.rhfweb.com\personal New Age Production's Inc., www.rhfweb.com\newage Star Haven Community Services, at www.rhfweb.com\sh. Radiation Health Foundation Trust at www.rhfweb.com Making a difference one person at a time Get informed. Inform others. --part1_9a.1ed2befd.2f2a7186_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message=20= dated 1/27/05 7:01:09 AM Pacific Standard Time, steven.johnson dot.state.wi.= us writes:


Might I suggest that making= a difference, in this world, one person at a
time often starts with acquiring a better understanding of one's persona= l
interpretation of Modern Mythology. Unfortunately, literal translations=20= of
one's personal mythology tends to only generate dogma and fundamentalism= ,
one person at a time.

Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
I'll stop posting such ideas at this list.  I have spy's who kind o= f egg me on by getting me upset at them as a means of interrogation, which o= ften causes me to post emails, and such ideas in response.=20

Baron Von Volsung, www.rhfweb.co= m\baron, Email: www.rhf= web.com\emailform.html=20
President Thomas D. Clark, Email: www.rhfweb.com\emailform.html,=20
Personal Web Page: www.rhfweb= .com\personal=20
New Age Production's Inc., www.= rhfweb.com\newage=20
Star Haven Community Services, at w= ww.rhfweb.com\sh.=20
Radiation Health Foundation Trust at = www.rhfweb.com=20

Making a difference one person at a time=20
Get informed. Inform others.=20
--part1_9a.1ed2befd.2f2a7186_boundary-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 27 08:43:27 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0RGhGsS001933; Thu, 27 Jan 2005 08:43:16 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0RGhFcC001923; Thu, 27 Jan 2005 08:43:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 08:43:15 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <41F91A81.4030607 ix.netcom.com> Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 09:44:49 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Physics Today 1/25/05 - Feder References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050124154117.02ae1a08 pop.mindspring.com> <6.1.2.0.0.20050125072714.00ba7948@pop.theworld.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050125150128.02a7d6b0@pop.mindspring.com> <6.1.2.0.0.20050125194400.020ceb20@pop.theworld.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050126094013.02a9ad78@pop.mindspring.com> <6.1.2.0.0.20050127081136.00ba7978@pop.theworld.com> In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.0.20050127081136.00ba7978 pop.theworld.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57315 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dr. Swartz, if you have a problem with what Jed or I have done with your papers, take it up with us personally. Do not waste the time of everyone on Vortex. They can not solve your problem. God knows, Jed has tried and failed. Ed Storms Mitchell Swartz wrote: > > > At 09:52 AM 1/26/2005, Jed Rothwell, as usual, confuses the subject and > is disingenuous, wrote: > >> Mitchell Swartz wrote: >> >>> Second, some of the very papers which contain controls and >>> time-integration are not present >>> at the censored (and misnamed) LENR-CANR.org site. >> >> >> Well, in that case, whoever wrote these very papers should upload them >> somewhere else -- or submit them to LENR-CANR.org. The site is not >> censored, and the Internet *cannot be censored*. Google makes it >> "flat" with all papers equally accessible. > > > > > Nonsense. Rothwell is not accurate, and his use of confidential email > and a non-relevant paper from ICCF-9 which was NEVER an issue are > immaterial. > > Rothwell's banter does not change the fact that he and > Ed Storm's removed the titles of our three papers (and reportedly > others) from the ICCF10 > "list of papers" at the censored (and misnamed) LENR-CANR site. > > [Background: FWIW, our two papers which used the controls and > time-integration demanded by the DOE > group and have been censored by Storms/Rothwell are > Swartz. M., G. Verner, "Excess Heat from Low Electrical Conductivity > Heavy Water Spiral-Wound Pd/D2O/Pt and Pd/D2O-PdCl2/Pt Devices", > ICCF-10 (Camb. MA), Proceedings of ICCF-10, (2003), > and Swartz. M., "Photoinduced Excess Heat from Laser-Irradiated > Electrically-Polarized > Palladium Cathodes in D2O", ICCF-10 (Camb. MA), Proceedings of ICCF-10, > (2003). > > Interesting that both papers listed originally for ICCF10, and assigned > Monday and Tuesday > for the dates. They were thereafter deleted from the censored LENR/CANR > website.] > > Because these titles WERE originally on the list, and because those who > actually conducted ICCF-10 have written that they are disappointed > by the Storms/Rothwell mischief, it is apparent that the censorship > of the misnamed LENR-CANR site exists. > > BTW, this Rothwell/Storms censorship has been confirmed in conversations by > them to others, and it has been discussed by the late Dr. Mallove, just > as it > has been of concern to others who responded to me by private email > after a previous net-discussion of the Rothwell-Storms censorships. > > "This is known as science by politics -- it is disgusting. Storms doesn't > have leg to stand on and he knows it." - the late Dr. Eugene Mallove > > In summary, those who rely only on Rothwell for "information" eventually > will, > or have, become aware that many of his posts should have a warning > label with them. > > > Dr. Mitchell Swartz > > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 27 09:20:10 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0RHJssS021327; Thu, 27 Jan 2005 09:19:54 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0RHJpoq021293; Thu, 27 Jan 2005 09:19:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 09:19:51 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.1.2.0.0.20050127120834.02189010 pop.theworld.com> X-Sender: mica pop.theworld.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.2.0 Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 12:12:50 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Physics Today 1/25/05 - Feder In-Reply-To: <41F91A81.4030607 ix.netcom.com> References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050124154117.02ae1a08 pop.mindspring.com> <6.1.2.0.0.20050125072714.00ba7948 pop.theworld.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050125150128.02a7d6b0 pop.mindspring.com> <6.1.2.0.0.20050125194400.020ceb20 pop.theworld.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050126094013.02a9ad78 pop.mindspring.com> <6.1.2.0.0.20050127081136.00ba7978 pop.theworld.com> <41F91A81.4030607 ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57316 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:44 AM 1/27/2005, Edmund Storms wrote: >Dr. Swartz, if you have a problem with what Jed or I have done with your >papers, take it up with us personally. Do not waste the time of everyone >on Vortex. They can not solve your problem. .... Ed: First, Rothwell brought this up. He wasted everyone's time his false statement and useless allegation. The problem of the misnamed (and censored) LENR-CANR site is your own. You apparently continue it for reasons known only to you (and perhpas those who attended LENR-2 in Texas). > "God knows, Jed has tried and failed." Interested viewpoint that you have, Edmund. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 27 10:12:14 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0RIBosS017683; Thu, 27 Jan 2005 10:11:50 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0RIBk7w017645; Thu, 27 Jan 2005 10:11:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 10:11:46 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: "Vortex" Subject: RE: Physics today 1/25/05 Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 13:11:48 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <410-220051427143816610 earthlink.net> Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57317 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hey All. If people are having such problems, the best thing to do is post the logs here for us to look at. I've done similar experiments and found two seperate things. 1) A lot of lurkers exist on vortex, more than anyone would think given the regular posters and the traffic here. For example, there was (is?) a robot run out of LANL that automatically downloads and caches any links from a post you make here. This isn't anything ominous, just surprising that there are some people in the organization that still bother to care about fringe stuff, enough to cache it. A good thing, IMHO. I just wish these folks would _contribute_ something to the list now and then. It's just plain selfish behavior. 2) If you put a computer online, it will be attacked. Mostly this is done automatically by viruses looking to infect new machines, which is probably the case with the example cited below. If you post the logs, I can tell you much more about what's happening. If you're being attacked by a Marriot Hotel in WV, you can be reasonably sure that the attacker is some dowdy secretary named Cherise who just downloaded the new "9 lives" kitty screensaver and is just now wondering why her computer takes so long to do things online ( hint, all available bandwidth is being consumed by automated attacks on other machines ). But please, post some logs, and we can all see what's what. Sunlight is the best disinfectant, and the truth is often so much more boring and prosaic... K. -----Original Message----- From: Frederick Sparber [mailto:fjsparber earthlink.net] Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2005 9:38 AM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Physics today 1/25/05 Jones Beene wrote: > Even scarier is now that K_ _ ke has > signed back onto vortex from a Euro ISP, the unauthorized > attempts will probably increase ;-) THAT IS SCARY. :-) Frederick > [Original Message] > From: Jones Beene > To: ; > Date: 1/27/05 9:24:25 AM > Subject: Re: Physics today 1/25/05 > > Ahoy, > > > If you want to get an indication of how many people, and > sometimes even the identities of the people or > organizations, who are doing research in your particular > field, simply publish your work, and then read the logs on > your computer firewall. You will find the addresses of the > computers that are trying to gain access to your computer. > In many cases, you can trace the numerical addresses back > directly to the registered owners of those addresses. It > was a hobby of mine for quite some time, and I must say, it > was fascinating. > > > Yes. Also note how many of them are registered in the > norther Virginia area, presumably to certain "contractors". > For instance, why do computers registered to Marriott > subsidiaries keep wanting to get into my computer? 150 > attempts one month. I don't think it has anything to do with > hotel management. The scary thing is, who own's the one's > that cannot be tracked? Even scarier is now that K_ _ ke has > signed back onto vortex from a Euro ISP, the unauthorized > attempts will probably increase ;-) > > Jones > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 27 10:26:26 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0RIQCsS027581; Thu, 27 Jan 2005 10:26:13 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0RIQAEh027548; Thu, 27 Jan 2005 10:26:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 10:26:10 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050127131355.02aad9d8 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 13:25:54 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Glass funnel was not in use in the cell that exploded Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <8bk-_C.A.OuG.BJT-BB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57318 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mizuno reports that the inverted glass funnel was not in use in the latest series of experiments, so there was a stoichiometric mix of hydrogen and oxygen in the headspace of the cell. After further investigation, he concluded that the explosion was probably triggered by the platinum mesh anode. I will revise the accident report to include his latest comments, and I will upload a version of it in a few days. The outlet tube leading to the mass spectrometer was definitely not blocked or impeded, so the gas in the headspace was at 1 atm. One of the glass shards struck Mizuno's neck next to the carotid artery and penetrated about 1 cm. I'll bet that put the fear of God in him! He has been rather slack about safety up to now, in my opinion. There is a great deal of opposition to cold fusion in Japan and at the university, so I feared that the university might step in and tell him he can no longer perform these experiments. But apparently, he is already back at work starting the experiments again, despite the trauma. Mizuno has guts. All cold fusion researchers have guts. They are an ornery bunch, but you have to admire them. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 27 11:32:27 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0RJW3sS031857; Thu, 27 Jan 2005 11:32:03 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0RJVvGY031739; Thu, 27 Jan 2005 11:31:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 11:31:57 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <41F941F1.8090007 ix.netcom.com> Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 12:33:05 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Physics Today 1/25/05 - Feder References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050124154117.02ae1a08 pop.mindspring.com> <6.1.2.0.0.20050125072714.00ba7948@pop.theworld.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050125150128.02a7d6b0@pop.mindspring.com> <6.1.2.0.0.20050125194400.020ceb20@pop.theworld.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050126094013.02a9ad78@pop.mindspring.com> <6.1.2.0.0.20050127081136.00ba7978@pop.theworld.com> <41F91A81.4030607@ix.netcom.com> <6.1.2.0.0.20050127120834.02189010@pop.theworld.com> In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.0.20050127120834.02189010 pop.theworld.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57319 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell Swartz wrote: > > > At 11:44 AM 1/27/2005, Edmund Storms wrote: > >> Dr. Swartz, if you have a problem with what Jed or I have done with >> your papers, take it up with us personally. Do not waste the time of >> everyone on Vortex. They can not solve your problem. .... > > > > Ed: > > First, Rothwell brought this up. He wasted everyone's time his false > statement > and useless allegation. I'm continuing this exchange only for the benefit of interested observers. Apparently, no statement contradicting or explaining Dr. Swartz's assertions has any effect on his persistent repetition. He continues to call Jed and I liars and continues to insist that he is correct in a public form that should be devoted to debate of science. Neither Jed nor I have any reason to keep his papers off the site, other than his lack of cooperation. We publish all papers that can be understood and are of value to the field. As anyone can see, our standards are rather low, but not absent. Swartz's papers fall well within this standard. However, some papers do not, hence Swartz's charge of censorship. This accusation would be laughable except Swartz is an influential contributor to the CF field and many readers will only note the repeated assertion without examining the evidence. As has been said before, "A lie told many times becomes the truth." Of course, neither Swartz nor I, nor Jed, can prove our individual viewpoints. Consequently, readers, if it is important at all, will have to come to their own conclusions based on the past history of each of us. Therefore, this is the last comment I will make on the subject. Ed Storms > > The problem of the misnamed (and censored) LENR-CANR site is your own. > You apparently continue it for reasons known only to you > (and perhpas those who attended LENR-2 in Texas). > > >> "God knows, Jed has tried and failed." > > > > Interested viewpoint that you have, Edmund. > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 27 12:41:44 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0RKf9sS001130; Thu, 27 Jan 2005 12:41:09 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0RKdP7x032687; Thu, 27 Jan 2005 12:39:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 12:39:25 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050127150957.02af2e48 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 15:38:21 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Secret cold fusion research would probably not be fruitful In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_9911781==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: <8XLvlD.A.j-H.8FV-BB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57320 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_9911781==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Michael Huffman wrote: >Gnorts! > > One of the misconceptions regarding the research done by private > industry is that private industry would publish their work, or even let > it be known that work was being done in a particular field by that > industry in the first place. At this stage we know so little about the cold fusion effect that all research is still at the fundamental physics level, which seems unlikely to result in a patent, useful intellectual property, or a practical device. You cannot patent a force of nature, only a specific method of harnessing that force, and all of the methods of harnessing cold fusion that I have seen so far seem unpromising from a practical point of view. I assume the only reason for doing these experiments is to discover the nature of the reaction. In other words, to develop a theory, or at least a working model. Later, based on this theory we hope someone will develop an effective way to tap the energy. It seems to me this ultimate method is likely to be very different from everything we have done so far. Before cold fusion achieves a practical form, my guess is that it will go through phases as varied as steam engines did in four of their early major configurations: Ancient steam driven whirligig toys Savery engine (actually driven by a vacuum, not steam pressure) Newcomen engine (also a vacuum) Watt engine (positive steam pressure) These machines were so different from one another, I doubt that any intellectual property would have carried from one to the other. (Actually, modern intellectual property did not exist back then.) Useful knowledge was carried from one design to the next, but it was of a practical, hands-on nature. The people building and operating Savery engines were not much better prepared to make the first Newcomen engines, because they understood how to deal with boilers, seals, coal fires and so on. There are other technologies in which the basic form has carried over from one generation to another. However, these are mainly engineering breakthroughs, rather than breakthroughs in physics or chemistry. Two well-known examples are the airplane and the computer processor. If patents lasted 100 years (and I hope they never do!), the 1906 Wright patent would probably still be 100% applicable to all airplanes; and I think von Neumann would have no difficulty recognizing his architecture in today's microprocessors. Because CF research is still at such a primitive level, I do not think it is possible to do effective research without first consulting with experts in the field, and without revealing what you are doing. I am aware that various corporations have quietly conducted cold fusion experiments from time to time, but as far as I know, their results have not been any better than published results from universities, national laboratories, SRI and elsewhere. The results at SRI, for example, are very impressive from a scientific point of view, but they have no commercial value and no significant patentable intellectual property as far as I can judge. Mike McKubre may well disagree with me! - Jed --=====================_9911781==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Michael Huffman wrote:

Gnorts!

  One of the misconceptions regarding the research done by private industry is that private industry would publish their work, or even let it be known that work was being done in a particular field by that industry in the first place.

At this stage we know so little about the cold fusion effect that all research is still at the fundamental physics level, which seems unlikely to result in a patent, useful intellectual property, or a practical device. You cannot patent a force of nature, only a specific method of harnessing that force, and all of the methods of harnessing cold fusion that I have seen so far seem unpromising from a practical point of view. I assume the only reason for doing these experiments is to discover the nature of the reaction. In other words, to develop a theory, or at least a working model. Later, based on this theory we hope someone will develop an effective way to tap the energy. It seems to me this ultimate method is likely to be very different from everything we have done so far. Before cold fusion achieves a practical form, my guess is that it will go through phases as varied as steam engines did in four of their early major configurations:

Ancient steam driven whirligig toys
Savery engine (actually driven by a vacuum, not steam pressure)
Newcomen engine (also a vacuum)
Watt engine (positive steam pressure)

These machines were so different from one another, I doubt that any intellectual property would have carried from one to the other. (Actually, modern intellectual property did not exist back then.) Useful knowledge was carried from one design to the next, but it was of a practical, hands-on nature. The people building and operating Savery engines were not much better prepared to make the first Newcomen engines, because they understood how to deal with boilers, seals, coal fires and so on.

There are other technologies in which the basic form has carried over from one generation to another. However, these are mainly engineering breakthroughs, rather than breakthroughs in physics or chemistry. Two well-known examples are the airplane and the computer processor. If patents lasted 100 years (and I hope they never do!), the 1906 Wright patent would probably still be 100% applicable to all airplanes; and I think von Neumann would have no difficulty recognizing his architecture in today's microprocessors.

Because CF research is still at such a primitive level, I do not think it is possible to do effective research without first consulting with experts in the field, and without revealing what you are doing. I am aware that various corporations have quietly conducted cold fusion experiments from time to time, but as far as I know, their results have not been any better than published results from universities, national laboratories, SRI and elsewhere. The results at SRI, for example, are very impressive from a scientific point of view, but they have no commercial value and no significant patentable intellectual property as far as I can judge. Mike McKubre may well disagree with me!

- Jed
--=====================_9911781==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 27 12:46:25 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0RKjjsS004277; Thu, 27 Jan 2005 12:45:45 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0RKjfYH004225; Thu, 27 Jan 2005 12:45:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 12:45:41 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: <80f476e8-a4ce-4a54-bf20-e5faee5113db> Message-ID: <01cf01c504b1$1bf01ad0$ea49ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050127131355.02aad9d8 pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Glass funnel was not in use in the cell that exploded Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 15:43:06 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57321 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed wrote: > Mizuno reports that the inverted glass funnel was not in use in the latest > series of experiments, so there was a stoichiometric mix of hydrogen and > oxygen in the headspace of the cell. After further investigation, he > concluded that the explosion was probably triggered by the platinum mesh > anode. I will revise the accident report to include his latest comments, > and I will upload a version of it in a few days. Attributing the explosion trigger to the platinum mesh anode does not fit the reported events. The anode is submerged, as is the tungsten cathode. First there is a spark or flash, then an expanding glow, then an explosion. Jed interprets Mizuno's report as sujective, which may or may not be true. That is Jed's comment, not Mizuno's. When the disturbance reaches the surface, the stoiciometric H2-O2 mixture may well have ignited contributing to the explosion. The cause is glossed over. The electrolysis is locally producing H and K+ at the cathode. As I pointed out, these are ingredients for the BLP reaction. Tungsten is a dissociation catalyst for H2>2H in the BLP thermally driven plasma cell. Certainly examine the probable causes, but don't assume that understanding is complete. Cirillio et. al. also reported to ICCF-11 excess heat as well as transmutation in a light water plasma electrolysis cell with K2CO3 and a tungsten cathode. Here are two events which are possibly linked by the BLP reaction. Time to widen the perspective and not be too narrowly CF. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 27 12:51:13 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0RKoosS009136; Thu, 27 Jan 2005 12:50:51 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0RKocwL009007; Thu, 27 Jan 2005 12:50:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 12:50:38 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050127153854.02ae1420 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 15:50:13 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Physics Today 1/25/05 - Feder In-Reply-To: <41F941F1.8090007 ix.netcom.com> References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050124154117.02ae1a08 pop.mindspring.com> <6.1.2.0.0.20050125072714.00ba7948 pop.theworld.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050125150128.02a7d6b0 pop.mindspring.com> <6.1.2.0.0.20050125194400.020ceb20 pop.theworld.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050126094013.02a9ad78 pop.mindspring.com> <6.1.2.0.0.20050127081136.00ba7978 pop.theworld.com> <41F91A81.4030607 ix.netcom.com> <6.1.2.0.0.20050127120834.02189010 pop.theworld.com> <41F941F1.8090007 ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_10623921==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57322 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_10623921==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Edmund Storms wrote: >We publish all papers that can be understood and are of value to the >field. As anyone can see, our standards are rather low, but not absent. Ahem! I would prefer to say our standards are "rather broad minded" or perhaps "forgiving." Okay, it means the same thing, but the situation calls to mind Darrell Huff's observation in his immortal book "How To Lie With Statistics:" "The fact is, despite its mathematical base, statistics is as much an art as it is a science. A great many manipulations and even distortions are possible within the bounds of propriety. Often the statistician must choose among methods, a subjective process, and find the one that he will use to represent the facts. In commercial practice he is about as unlikely to select an unfavorable method as a copywriter is to call his sponsor's product flimsy and cheap when he might as well say light and economical." - Jed --=====================_10623921==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Edmund Storms wrote:

We publish all papers that can be understood and are of value to the field.  As anyone can see, our standards are rather low, but not absent.

Ahem! I would prefer to say our standards are "rather broad minded" or perhaps "forgiving."

Okay, it means the same thing, but the situation calls to mind Darrell Huff's observation in his immortal book "How To Lie With Statistics:"

"The fact is, despite its mathematical base, statistics is as much an art as it is a science. A great many manipulations and even distortions are possible within the bounds of propriety. Often the statistician must choose among methods, a subjective process, and find the one that he will use to represent the facts. In commercial practice he is about as unlikely to select an unfavorable method as a copywriter is to call his sponsor's product flimsy and cheap when he might as well say light and economical."

- Jed
--=====================_10623921==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 27 13:03:21 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0RL36sS016571; Thu, 27 Jan 2005 13:03:08 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0RL34Wf016546; Thu, 27 Jan 2005 13:03:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 13:03:04 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20050127130446.0472bde8 mail.dlsi.net> X-Sender: steven%newenergytimes.com mail.dlsi.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 13:04:53 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: stealth cf research programs Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57323 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Your theory should be somewhat testable with a little *flypaper*... ;) s > If you want to get an indication of how many people, and sometimes even > the identities of the people or organizations, who are doing research in > your particular field, simply publish your work, and then read the logs > on your computer firewall. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 27 13:23:19 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0RLMvsS025698; Thu, 27 Jan 2005 13:22:58 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0RLMt7Z025669; Thu, 27 Jan 2005 13:22:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 13:22:55 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050127160901.02aad9d8 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 16:22:36 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: It is dead simple to hide your identity on the web In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_12567921==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: <34yhPC.A.-QG.uuV-BB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57324 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_12567921==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Michael Huffman wrote: > If you want to get an indication of how many people, and sometimes even > the identities of the people or organizations, who are doing research in > your particular field, simply publish your work, and then read the logs > on your computer firewall. You will find the addresses of the computers > that are trying to gain access to your computer. . . This is true, but it tells you nothing about hidden cold fusion research programs and the like. People at an organization engaged in such things would take steps to hide their identity when browsing. This is dead simple to do. I think the easiest and most effective method would be to subscribe to a large dial-up ISP such as AOL and use that account for surreptitious browsing. I believe there are also various software tools to hide ones identity. While we are on the subject of the Web, I recommend the new Mozilla Firefox in place of the well known browser from you-know-who that is usually referred to by its initials so that it sounds like "Aaiiiieee" (or "Oy Gevalt!" in plain English.) - Jed --=====================_12567921==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Michael Huffman wrote:

  If you want to get an indication of how many people, and sometimes even the identities of the people or organizations, who are doing research in your particular field, simply publish your work, and then read the logs on your computer firewall.  You will find the addresses of the computers that are trying to gain access to your computer. . .

This is true, but it tells you nothing about hidden cold fusion research programs and the like. People at an organization engaged in such things would take steps to hide their identity when browsing. This is dead simple to do. I think the easiest and most effective method would be to subscribe to a large dial-up ISP such as AOL and use that account for surreptitious browsing. I believe there are also various software tools to hide ones identity.

While we are on the subject of the Web, I recommend the new Mozilla Firefox in place of the well known browser from you-know-who that is usually referred to by its initials so that it sounds like "Aaiiiieee" (or "Oy Gevalt!" in plain English.)

- Jed
--=====================_12567921==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 27 13:40:47 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0RLeTsS000750; Thu, 27 Jan 2005 13:40:30 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0RLeR4x000744; Thu, 27 Jan 2005 13:40:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 13:40:27 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20050127133333.046dd408 mail.dlsi.net> X-Sender: steven%newenergytimes.com mail.dlsi.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 13:42:21 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Mozilla Firefox - Thumbs up! In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050127160901.02aad9d8 pop.mindspring.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57325 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > >While we are on the subject of the Web, I recommend the new Mozilla >Firefox in place of the well known browser from you-know-who that is >usually referred to by its initials so that it sounds like "Aaiiiieee" (or >"Oy Gevalt!" in plain English.) > >- Jed What I like most about it so far is it's default "no pop-ups" policy. Of, perhaps 200 web sites I've been to since using it, only one failed to display properly with Firefox. It's time to get the word out to web programmers that "Works best with Internet Explorer" is passe. http://www.mozilla.org/ My webstats indicate that 70% of you use IE, and 19% of you use Firefox. s From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 27 13:48:02 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0RLldsS004245; Thu, 27 Jan 2005 13:47:39 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0RLlah9004228; Thu, 27 Jan 2005 13:47:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 13:47:36 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Glass funnel was not in use in the cell that exploded Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 16:48:04 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <01cf01c504b1$1bf01ad0$ea49ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57326 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Mike. Conditions were ripe for an explosion here. This from the trouble report - "The event occurred in the early stage of the experiment before a plasma normally forms. Soon after ordinary electrolysis began, voltage was increased to 20 V and current to 1.5 A. 5 or 6 seconds later, a bright white flash was seen on the lower portion of the cathode." So you have several seconds to saturate the solution and open space with H2 and O2 from ordinary electrolysis, and you have an unstable glow discharge igniting and extinguishing. Granted 20V is low, but not impossibly low. Also note that gas bubbles can effective reduce the surface area of the cathode, further lowering the necessary electrical potential needed for glow ignition. I worried about this when I replicated Nick's work a few months back, I hope Doctor M is more careful. Cave, frater. K. -----Original Message----- From: Mike Carrell [mailto:mikec snip.net] Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2005 3:43 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Glass funnel was not in use in the cell that exploded Jed wrote: > Mizuno reports that the inverted glass funnel was not in use in the latest > series of experiments, so there was a stoichiometric mix of hydrogen and > oxygen in the headspace of the cell. After further investigation, he > concluded that the explosion was probably triggered by the platinum mesh > anode. I will revise the accident report to include his latest comments, > and I will upload a version of it in a few days. Attributing the explosion trigger to the platinum mesh anode does not fit the reported events. The anode is submerged, as is the tungsten cathode. First there is a spark or flash, then an expanding glow, then an explosion. Jed interprets Mizuno's report as sujective, which may or may not be true. That is Jed's comment, not Mizuno's. When the disturbance reaches the surface, the stoiciometric H2-O2 mixture may well have ignited contributing to the explosion. The cause is glossed over. The electrolysis is locally producing H and K+ at the cathode. As I pointed out, these are ingredients for the BLP reaction. Tungsten is a dissociation catalyst for H2>2H in the BLP thermally driven plasma cell. Certainly examine the probable causes, but don't assume that understanding is complete. Cirillio et. al. also reported to ICCF-11 excess heat as well as transmutation in a light water plasma electrolysis cell with K2CO3 and a tungsten cathode. Here are two events which are possibly linked by the BLP reaction. Time to widen the perspective and not be too narrowly CF. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 27 13:49:14 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0RLmrsS005062; Thu, 27 Jan 2005 13:48:54 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0RLmpZf005031; Thu, 27 Jan 2005 13:48:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 13:48:51 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=mY8thsmky/Y6IOST40esmVHdxoNFDJaObkTgDK15Hq0demvEZyUKLPiLkndc0M11l740xuneBNT0OnxbRCwKLxMpYAkG1tnTg8hM4p45NgsauErFL/xeR+6DE3DWqzxRYyAYjPsTTJHnuqjahDtGAwnuWShRBn+v/9e7JJXtBhg= ; Message-ID: <20050127214840.80678.qmail web60310.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 13:48:40 -0800 (PST) From: Nick Reiter Subject: Re: Glass funnel was not in use in the cell that exploded To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <01cf01c504b1$1bf01ad0$ea49ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57327 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: What a set of events for me to consider, seeing as I am poised to start the second round of testing with the little Wisp reactor. (Got some more D2O, and will be minding my viscosity this time). A little earlier this afternoon, I was pondering Dr. Mizuno's explosion, and I scoured the building for a little blast insurance of my own. Found a nice acrylic cylinder with half inch thick walls to make a good 360 shield. Of course, the Wisp is open beaker. Then again, I WAS getting some uncanny concussions at the end of the last series, one of which did knock the beaker off its MHD stirring magnet. With respect to the semi-related thread going on here as far as CF suppression and stealth... jeez, just post your experimental results openly for all to see right here on vort and everywhere. Hey - Little Wisp is a crude set-up and my neutron detection still bites, but its a party y'all are invited to. If someone comes along and scoops up part of the "technology package" so to speak, fine - thats why I dabble in this madness. I have fun with the day job anyway, putting II-VI semiconductor films on glass, for a tasteful alternative to silicon PV! n --- Mike Carrell wrote: > Jed wrote: > > > Mizuno reports that the inverted glass funnel was > not in use in the latest > > series of experiments, so there was a > stoichiometric mix of hydrogen and > > oxygen in the headspace of the cell. After further > investigation, he > > concluded that the explosion was probably > triggered by the platinum mesh > > anode. I will revise the accident report to > include his latest comments, > > and I will upload a version of it in a few days. > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 27 14:08:21 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0RM7xsS013580; Thu, 27 Jan 2005 14:07:59 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0RM7uKh013546; Thu, 27 Jan 2005 14:07:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 14:07:56 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050127165422.02ae4ec0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 17:07:39 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: RE: Glass funnel was not in use in the cell that exploded In-Reply-To: References: <01cf01c504b1$1bf01ad0$ea49ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_15268203==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57328 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_15268203==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Keith Nagel wrote: >Hi Mike. > >Conditions were ripe for an explosion here. I think so. More importantly, Mike McKubre thinks so. Most importantly, Mizuno thinks so. Perhaps it would be a good idea to try to compute the explosive power of the stoichiometric gas in the headspace, but I do not think this hypothesis calls for much analysis beyond that. As for the light at the bottom of the test tube, while I do not want to speculate too much, we should remember that the event occurred in a very short time, probably a fraction of the second, and it is difficult to make accurate observations in such circumstances. Perhaps the light was reflected? I do not know, but anyway, I would not put much stock in my own recollection of such an event. Imagine your ears are still ringing from an explosion, you are bleeding and you have just pulled a glass shard out of your neck that was embedded next to the carotid artery. How likely is it that you will accurately and completely recall a fleeting observation you made a fraction of a second before the explosion? - Jed --=====================_15268203==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Keith Nagel wrote:

Hi Mike.

Conditions were ripe for an explosion here.

I think so. More importantly, Mike McKubre thinks so. Most importantly, Mizuno thinks so. Perhaps it would be a good idea to try to compute the explosive power of the stoichiometric gas in the headspace, but I do not think this hypothesis calls for much analysis beyond that.

As for the light at the bottom of the test tube, while I do not want to speculate too much, we should remember that the event occurred in a very short time, probably a fraction of the second, and it is difficult to make accurate observations in such circumstances. Perhaps the light was reflected? I do not know, but anyway, I would not put much stock in my own recollection of such an event. Imagine your ears are still ringing from an explosion, you are bleeding and you have just pulled a glass shard out of your neck that was embedded next to the carotid artery. How likely is it that you will accurately and completely recall a fleeting observation you made a fraction of a second before the explosion?

- Jed
--=====================_15268203==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 27 14:35:35 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0RMZIsS025626; Thu, 27 Jan 2005 14:35:19 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0RMZDrB025579; Thu, 27 Jan 2005 14:35:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 14:35:13 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 14:35:11 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: Entry to "Phenomena Reports" Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57329 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------------------------------------------------------ WOW! I just experienced a disappearing-object event, BIG TIME, with no sensible explanations and no questionable issues to provide any excuses. This is the first time an object has vanished right before my eyes. I was stirring a tall paper cup of coffee with a wooden stir-stick while slowly pouring in cocoa powder. I lost hold of the stick and it slipped under the surface. (These particular cups are so tall that a stir-stick can easily sink out of sight, it happens often.) But then the end of the stick didn't float back up again. Hmmm, mysterious. Did the wood get saturated that fast, and sink? Must have. So I grabbed a second wooden stir-stick and stirred the rest of the powder in, then swept that second stick around to feel for the lost one. Nothing there. Hmmm, it must have broken in half, and the two halves were deep in the coffee? But they should be floating. I stuck my finger into the coffee, and it was too hot to continue, but I swept my finger around quickly and didn't feel the stick. Then I wondered... is this a "vanishing object" event? If so, then it'svery scary. But the stick MUST still be in the coffee. My emotional state has significance: while stirring, I was fuming about the situation between my ex-wife and teenage daughter... and right then I DROPPED the stick. Vanishing-object reports often involve DROPPED objects and emotional distractions, so I begin to suspect something strange. OK, I now stop and examine my memory. I was looking right at the coffee and watching the rotating cocoa powder on the surface... the stick really went under as I watched. Yes, I really was holding the tip of the stick and lost hold on it, and it HAS TO still be submerged in the cup, no question. And there really are TWO sticks involved: I really grabbed a second stick after the first one sank (and the top half of that new stick is dry: it never was submerged like the first one.) No question at all about the time sequence. But the missing stick didn't float back up again. What should I do next? Pour off the coffee! See if there's two stick-halves down under it. So I carefully went across the room and got my ceramic coffee mug, dumped its contents (two teabags and yet another wooden stir-stick) into the trash, and then poured off the hot coffee into the mug. And... no stir-stick pieces under the coffee in the paper cup. Holy. Crap. AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Now my hands are shaking and I have to type up the story quickly, before I convince myself that it didn't really happen. W. Beaty Seattle, wa USA - Thursday, January 27, 2005 at 11:59:20 (PST) ------------------------------------------------------ And here's another recent one: ------------------------------------------------------ This happened a few years ago when I was working in the lab of a local chemical factory. We used an X-Ray spectrometer to measure the level of additives in polyethylene. We made small discs of the material and placed them in the instrument. One day, I placed a disc in the instrument, performed the analysis, and when I opened the sample compartment to take it back out, it was gone! Vanished into thin air! I repeated the test and again the plastic disc disappeared. There was no way it could have fallen into the machine because the sample compartment was an aluminum cup. After that it never happened again. Robert Franklin USA - Friday, May 30, 2003 at 11:35:00 (PDT) ------------------------------------------------------ Vanishing/Reappearing Objects http://amasci.com/weird/unusual/objs.html From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 27 14:52:37 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0RMqCFs001877; Thu, 27 Jan 2005 14:52:13 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0RMq8A5001839; Thu, 27 Jan 2005 14:52:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 14:52:08 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "John Steck" To: Subject: RE: Entry to "Phenomena Reports" Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 16:52:38 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57331 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I think I saw that once in a James Bond movie... 8^) -j -----Original Message----- From: William Beaty [mailto:billb eskimo.com] Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2005 4:35 PM To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: Entry to "Phenomena Reports" ------------------------------------------------------ WOW! I just experienced a disappearing-object event, BIG TIME, with no sensible explanations and no questionable issues to provide any excuses. This is the first time an object has vanished right before my eyes. I was stirring a tall paper cup of coffee with a wooden stir-stick while slowly pouring in cocoa powder. I lost hold of the stick and it slipped under the surface. (These particular cups are so tall that a stir-stick can easily sink out of sight, it happens often.) But then the end of the stick didn't float back up again. Hmmm, mysterious. Did the wood get saturated that fast, and sink? Must have. So I grabbed a second wooden stir-stick and stirred the rest of the powder in, then swept that second stick around to feel for the lost one. Nothing there. Hmmm, it must have broken in half, and the two halves were deep in the coffee? But they should be floating. I stuck my finger into the coffee, and it was too hot to continue, but I swept my finger around quickly and didn't feel the stick. Then I wondered... is this a "vanishing object" event? If so, then it'svery scary. But the stick MUST still be in the coffee. My emotional state has significance: while stirring, I was fuming about the situation between my ex-wife and teenage daughter... and right then I DROPPED the stick. Vanishing-object reports often involve DROPPED objects and emotional distractions, so I begin to suspect something strange. OK, I now stop and examine my memory. I was looking right at the coffee and watching the rotating cocoa powder on the surface... the stick really went under as I watched. Yes, I really was holding the tip of the stick and lost hold on it, and it HAS TO still be submerged in the cup, no question. And there really are TWO sticks involved: I really grabbed a second stick after the first one sank (and the top half of that new stick is dry: it never was submerged like the first one.) No question at all about the time sequence. But the missing stick didn't float back up again. What should I do next? Pour off the coffee! See if there's two stick-halves down under it. So I carefully went across the room and got my ceramic coffee mug, dumped its contents (two teabags and yet another wooden stir-stick) into the trash, and then poured off the hot coffee into the mug. And... no stir-stick pieces under the coffee in the paper cup. Holy. Crap. AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Now my hands are shaking and I have to type up the story quickly, before I convince myself that it didn't really happen. W. Beaty Seattle, wa USA - Thursday, January 27, 2005 at 11:59:20 (PST) ------------------------------------------------------ And here's another recent one: ------------------------------------------------------ This happened a few years ago when I was working in the lab of a local chemical factory. We used an X-Ray spectrometer to measure the level of additives in polyethylene. We made small discs of the material and placed them in the instrument. One day, I placed a disc in the instrument, performed the analysis, and when I opened the sample compartment to take it back out, it was gone! Vanished into thin air! I repeated the test and again the plastic disc disappeared. There was no way it could have fallen into the machine because the sample compartment was an aluminum cup. After that it never happened again. Robert Franklin USA - Friday, May 30, 2003 at 11:35:00 (PDT) ------------------------------------------------------ Vanishing/Reappearing Objects http://amasci.com/weird/unusual/objs.html -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.0 - Release Date: 27-Jan-05 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 27 15:25:40 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0RNPKmZ015453; Thu, 27 Jan 2005 15:25:21 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0RNPCZJ015326; Thu, 27 Jan 2005 15:25:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 15:25:12 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <00dd01c504c6$b713efe0$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: Subject: Re: Mozilla Firefox - Thumbs up! Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 15:19:56 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: <2XP3L.A.AvD.WhX-BB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57332 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Steck writes, > Not knocking Firefox at all, but Opera has been the un-sung defacto geek standard for W3 compliant browsing for almost a decade... http://www.opera.com It too is free....Haven't had the chance to compare/contrast yet. Opera... two thumbs up! I've used IE, Firefox and Opera extensively and find that Opera is FAR superior to the other browsers in speed, stability and functionality, especially speed ... except for those few sites which have security features that only IE can utilize. Neither the Firefox nor the Opera email client is as good as Outlook however, especially if you use Office. You have to chose the no-pop-up option for Opera, no big deal... IE doesn't have it. Plus IE puts this huge "secret" (not just "hidden" but totally inaccessible) Temp file in your system folder that will not empty without dumping the whole program... which I did after this file grew to over 100 megs, and who knows what is in there, as it is one of those "undocumented features" of IE. Anybody using Linspire (Linux) 4.5? Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 27 15:27:06 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0RMlsTx031940; Thu, 27 Jan 2005 14:48:25 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0RMlepS031788; Thu, 27 Jan 2005 14:47:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 14:47:40 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "John Steck" To: Subject: RE: Mozilla Firefox - Thumbs up! Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 16:48:09 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20050127133333.046dd408 mail.dlsi.net> Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57330 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: "It's time to get the word out to web programmers that "Works best with Internet Explorer" is passe." Unfortunately it's not that easy... commercial sites must still pander to the lowest common denominator -or- skillfully render browser specific pages on the fly. Prime example is the implementation of Cascading Style Sheets (CSS). It was a PAINFUL wait until it was recognized and supported by IE. Not knocking Firefox at all, but Opera has been the un-sung defacto geek standard for W3 compliant browsing for almost a decade... http://www.opera.com It too is free. You can even load it on your phone. Haven't had the chance to compare/contrast yet. Maybe all this Firefox hype will be a boon for them too. -john -----Original Message----- From: Steven Krivit [mailto:steven newenergytimes.com] Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2005 3:42 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Mozilla Firefox - Thumbs up! > >While we are on the subject of the Web, I recommend the new Mozilla >Firefox in place of the well known browser from you-know-who that is >usually referred to by its initials so that it sounds like "Aaiiiieee" (or >"Oy Gevalt!" in plain English.) > >- Jed What I like most about it so far is it's default "no pop-ups" policy. Of, perhaps 200 web sites I've been to since using it, only one failed to display properly with Firefox. It's time to get the word out to web programmers that "Works best with Internet Explorer" is passe. http://www.mozilla.org/ My webstats indicate that 70% of you use IE, and 19% of you use Firefox. s -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.0 - Release Date: 27-Jan-05 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 27 15:36:49 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0RNaQmZ024022; Thu, 27 Jan 2005 15:36:28 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0RNaJJw023949; Thu, 27 Jan 2005 15:36:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 15:36:19 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Mark S Bilk To: Mitchell Swartz , vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Assistance For Posting Mitchell Swartz's Papers On LENR-CANR.ORG Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 15:02:40 -0800 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.28] Content-Type: text/plain MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <0501271510590C.30586 isis> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57333 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Dr. Swartz, In answer to my private e-mail inquiry about this matter, Jed Rothwell said that he'd be happy to make your research papers available on lenr-canr.org, but that he was unable to find the files on your website, and that his CD drive could not read the CD-R disk you sent him. In previous messages, you referred to these two papers: Swartz. M., G. Verner, "Excess Heat from Low Electrical Conductivity Heavy Water Spiral-Wound Pd/D2O/Pt and Pd/D2O-PdCl2/Pt Devices", ICCF-10 (Camb. MA), Proceedings of ICCF-10, (2003), Swartz. M., "Photoinduced Excess Heat from Laser-Irradiated Electrically-Polarized Palladium Cathodes in D2O", ICCF-10 (Camb. MA), Proceedings of ICCF-10, (2003). and also mentioned your website: http://world.std.com/~mica/cft.html Due to the small capacity of many accounts on e-mail servers, the standard method for transmitting a file larger than a megabyte or so is to upload it to a website and send the address of the file there (its URL) to the recipient, who can then download it. If you have PDF files of these two papers, and would please upload them to your website (or any other) and post the URLs to the list, Rothwell will download them and put them up on lenr-canr.org. I'm a software engineer, and have experience administering websites and mailing lists, and assisting people with computer problems. If any technical difficulties arise in uploading or downloading the files on either website, I will be glad to assist in overcoming them, and will report the results impartially to the list. Sincerely, Mark Bilk mark cosmicpenguin.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 27 15:38:37 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0RNcKmZ025075; Thu, 27 Jan 2005 15:38:24 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0RNcGIq025035; Thu, 27 Jan 2005 15:38:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 15:38:16 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Ultrafunk Popcorn release 1.47 (30-July-2003) X-URL: http://www.ultrafunk.com/products/popcorn/ X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 00:37:29 +0100 From: Michael Huffman To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Physics today 1/25/05 Reply-To: knuke sumosound.de Message-Id: X-Provags-ID: kundenserver.de abuse kundenserver.de auth:b76291440de0a671bf17bfec730be47d Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57334 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > >Jones Beene wrote: >> Even scarier is now that K_ _ ke has >> signed back onto vortex from a Euro ISP, the unauthorized >> attempts will probably increase ;-) > >THAT IS SCARY. :-) > >Frederick > Actually, this is the first time in the last 5 years or so that the Vortex Group hasn't crashed completely for three days after I made a post. Things are getting BETTER! Jed did make a good point however, that it is dead easy to hide your identity while posting, and you can do it while you surf, as well. In 1993, when I first got on to the internet and began researching and posting, I did not know any of the tricks. I was just really, really glad that I could set up an e-mail program that worked. As the subject of computer security became more important, we pretty much all learned together just how easy it was to break into someone else's machine. I think that the reason that I caught so many people back then was that their efforts to break in were every bit as amatuerish or naive, as mine were in something as simple as successfully sending an e-mail. As time went by, both the snoopers and the snooped gained more knowledge, experience and sophistication. I don't bother reading my firewall logs anymore, primarily because I am just too lazy. I am just not as interesting to the snoopers as I used to be either, because I am not actively doing any research in this field at the moment. Knuke Absolutely NO Sparbarinos were sacrificed in the making of this message. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 27 17:31:56 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0S1Vgwq019051; Thu, 27 Jan 2005 17:31:43 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0S1Vehq019020; Thu, 27 Jan 2005 17:31:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 17:31:40 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <0b9501c504d9$186d2e70$4b01a8c0 colin5fc9e2583> Reply-To: "Colin Quinney" From: "Colin Quinney" To: References: Subject: Re: Entry to "Phenomena Reports" Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 20:31:31 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2527 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2527 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57335 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com X-Suspected-Spam: billb friends5 Status: RO X-Status: A Wow. James Bond movie? No way. Sounds more like something seen in a John Hutchison movie. Bill was the microwave oven on during this episode? Hutchison used to have a Tesla coil, a microwave, and a Van de Graph generator all running all at the same time. You have that equipment there. Under those conditions sometimes magic can happen. Stuff would levitate. Did stuff disappear with Hutchison? Wouldn't surprise me. Did you have anything else running in your lab? Like a VDG generator or a Tesla coil? Interesting that at least one careful conservative scientifically minded researcher who once studied Hutchison.. once told me that the effect may as well have been poltergeist phenomena, there were so many variables and it being so weird. Colin ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Steck" To: Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2005 5:52 PM Subject: RE: Entry to "Phenomena Reports" >I think I saw that once in a James Bond movie... 8^) > -j > > -----Original Message----- > From: William Beaty [mailto:billb eskimo.com] > Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2005 4:35 PM > To: vortex-L eskimo.com > Subject: Entry to "Phenomena Reports" > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------ > WOW! I just experienced a disappearing-object event, BIG TIME, with no > sensible explanations and no questionable issues to provide any excuses. > This is the first time an object has vanished right before my eyes. > > I was stirring a tall paper cup of coffee with a wooden stir-stick while > slowly pouring in cocoa powder. I lost hold of the stick and it slipped > under the surface. (These particular cups are so tall that a stir-stick > can easily sink out of sight, it happens often.) But then the end of the > stick didn't float back up again. Hmmm, mysterious. Did the wood get > saturated that fast, and sink? Must have. > > So I grabbed a second wooden stir-stick and stirred the rest of the powder > in, then swept that second stick around to feel for the lost one. > Nothing there. Hmmm, it must have broken in half, and the two halves were > deep in the coffee? But they should be floating. I stuck my finger into > the coffee, and it was too hot to continue, but I swept my finger around > quickly and didn't feel the stick. Then I wondered... is this a > "vanishing object" event? If so, then it'svery scary. But the stick MUST > still be in the coffee. My emotional state has significance: while > stirring, I was fuming about the situation between my ex-wife and teenage > daughter... and right then I DROPPED the stick. Vanishing-object reports > often involve DROPPED objects and emotional distractions, so I begin to > suspect something strange. > > OK, I now stop and examine my memory. I was looking right at the coffee > and watching the rotating cocoa powder on the surface... the stick really > went under as I watched. Yes, I really was holding the tip of the stick > and lost hold on it, and it HAS TO still be submerged in the cup, no > question. And there really are TWO sticks involved: I really grabbed a > second stick after the first one sank (and the top half of that new stick > is dry: it never was submerged like the first one.) No question at all > about the time sequence. But the missing stick didn't float back up > again. What should I do next? Pour off the coffee! See if there's two > stick-halves down under it. So I carefully went across the room and got > my ceramic coffee mug, dumped its contents (two teabags and yet another > wooden stir-stick) into the trash, and then poured off the hot coffee into > the mug. And... no stir-stick pieces under the coffee in the paper cup. > Holy. Crap. AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Now my > hands are shaking and I have to type up the story quickly, before I > convince myself that it didn't really happen. > > W. Beaty > Seattle, wa USA - Thursday, January 27, 2005 at 11:59:20 (PST) > ------------------------------------------------------ > > > > And here's another recent one: > > > ------------------------------------------------------ > This happened a few years ago when I was working in the lab of a local > chemical factory. We used an X-Ray spectrometer to measure the level of > additives in polyethylene. We made small discs of the material and placed > them in the instrument. One day, I placed a disc in the instrument, > performed the analysis, and when I opened the sample compartment to take > it back out, it was gone! Vanished into thin air! I repeated the test and > again the plastic disc disappeared. There was no way it could have fallen > into the machine because the sample compartment was an aluminum cup. After > that it never happened again. > Robert Franklin USA - Friday, May 30, 2003 at 11:35:00 (PDT) > ------------------------------------------------------ > > > Vanishing/Reappearing Objects > http://amasci.com/weird/unusual/objs.html > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.0 - Release Date: 27-Jan-05 > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 27 18:16:23 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0S2G2wq009418; Thu, 27 Jan 2005 18:16:03 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0S2FxtO009365; Thu, 27 Jan 2005 18:15:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 18:15:59 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <010e01c504de$94f71a00$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: Subject: Re: Entry to "Phenomena Reports" Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 18:10:46 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_010B_01C5049B.864D9300" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57336 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_010B_01C5049B.864D9300 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable William Beaty writes=20 ------------------------------------------------------ > WOW! I just experienced a disappearing-object event, BIG TIME, with = no > sensible explanations and no questionable issues to provide any = excuses. > This is the first time an object has vanished right before my eyes...=20 The object didn't disappear, Bill... well, not exactly... you see, there = was just this little software glitch, and you weren't supposed to even = notice... The most thought provoking movie of 1999, or any other year was "The = Thirteenth Floor," which when combined with plot elements from "Vanilla = Sky," the "Matrix" films, "Minority Report," "Dark City" and a few = others ("Tron" is not worth the mention, but "The Cube" is well as many = tales by Phillip K. Dick are)... are all extraordinary and = under-appreciated visions of our present state of "reality" i.e. = unreal/reality. Truth is said to be stranger than fiction, but perhaps = some fiction is more real than reality. Yup, the "human predicament" is not human at all, nor even "real" as we = have been programmed to define that term. We are all operating as avatars in someone's else's (Yup, you-know-who) = computer program. Which despite the "all-knowing" bit is well...=20 ...let's just say that occasionally...but not too often, Thank Coder, = something goes awry at the fringes...and normally we are too embarrassed = to even mention it... normally, of course, we (excepting vortexians) = have to protect our phony-baloney jobs, don't you know... Signed, Harry Tuttle Ductwork Engineer & Diptera eradicator ...(but one hopes that certain self-titled readers of vortex do not take = this "review" too seriously) ------=_NextPart_000_010B_01C5049B.864D9300 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
William Beaty writes 
 ------------------------------------------------------
>= =20 WOW!  I just experienced a disappearing-object event, BIG TIME, = with=20 no
> sensible explanations and no questionable issues to provide = any=20 excuses.
> This is the first time an object has vanished right = before my=20 eyes...
 
The object didn't disappear, Bill... well, not exactly... you see, = there=20 was just this little software glitch, and you weren't supposed to=20 even notice...
 
The most thought provoking movie of 1999, or any other year = was "The=20 Thirteenth Floor," which when combined with plot elements from "Vanilla=20 Sky," the "Matrix" films, "Minority Report," "Dark = City"  and a=20 few others ("Tron" is not worth the mention, but "The Cube" is well as = many=20 tales by Phillip K. Dick are)... are all extraordinary and=20 under-appreciated visions of our present state of "reality"=20 i.e. unreal/reality. Truth is said to be stranger than fiction, but = perhaps=20 some fiction is more real than reality.
 
Yup, the "human predicament" is not human at all, nor even "real" = as we=20 have been programmed to define that term.
 
We are all operating as avatars in someone's else's (Yup, = you-know-who)=20 computer program. Which despite the "all-knowing" bit is well...
 
...let's just say that occasionally...but not too often, Thank=20 Coder, something goes awry at the fringes...and normally we are too = embarrassed to even mention it... normally, of course, we (excepting = vortexians)=20 have to protect our phony-baloney jobs, don't you know...
 
Signed,
 
Harry Tuttle
Ductwork Engineer & Diptera eradicator
 
...(but one hopes that certain self-titled readers of vortex = do not=20 take this "review" too seriously) <G>
------=_NextPart_000_010B_01C5049B.864D9300-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 27 19:46:13 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0S3k2iu020161; Thu, 27 Jan 2005 19:46:03 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0S3jxDX020112; Thu, 27 Jan 2005 19:45:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 19:45:59 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: A question for the electrochemists Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 14:45:46 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <16djv0ln1ktpalk4hlk202t6uhm2r97odo 4ax.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j0S3jpiu020037 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57337 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi, Could someone tell me generally, which parameters affect the creation of potassium metal at the cathode of an electrolytic cell that uses a potassium carbonate electrolyte, and how to maximize it's production? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 27 20:37:16 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0S4aviu008942; Thu, 27 Jan 2005 20:36:57 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0S4atAQ008919; Thu, 27 Jan 2005 20:36:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 20:36:55 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: A question for the electrochemists X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: ID = 7b84137320e539ae3bcf255acd0b8dbd Reply-To: michael.foster excite.com From: "Michael Foster" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: michael.foster excite.com X-Mailer: PHP Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="EXCITEBOUNDARY_000__104d44f39314803dc115f47a46564ce3"; Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050128043639.D0D843D9E xprdmailfe6.nwk.excite.com> Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 23:36:39 -0500 (EST) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57338 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --EXCITEBOUNDARY_000__104d44f39314803dc115f47a46564ce3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Robin, I assume you mean potassium carbonate in an aqueous solution. If that is the case, you won't get any potassium metal at all. You need a molten non-aqueous potassium compound in order to do this, such as potassium chloride. M. --- On Thu 01/27, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: From: Robin van Spaandonk [mailto: rvanspaa bigpond.net.au] To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 14:45:46 +1100 Subject: A question for the electrochemists Hi,Could someone tell me generally, which parameters affect the creation of potassium metal at the cathode of an electrolytic cell that uses a potassium carbonate electrolyte, and how to maximize it's production?Regards,Robin van SpaandonkAll SPAM goes in the trash unread. _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! --EXCITEBOUNDARY_000__104d44f39314803dc115f47a46564ce3 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Robin, I assume you mean potassium carbonate in an aqueous solution. If that is the case, you won't get any potassium metal at all. You need a molten non-aqueous potassium compound in order to do this, such as potassium chloride. M. --- On Thu 01/27, Robin van Spaandonk < rvanspaa bigpond.net.au > wrote: From: Robin van Spaandonk [mailto: rvanspaa bigpond.net.au] To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 14:45:46 +1100 Subject: A question for the electrochemists Hi,

Could someone tell me generally, which parameters affect the creation of potassium metal at the cathode of an electrolytic cell that uses a potassium carbonate electrolyte, and how to maximize it's production?


Regards,


Robin van Spaandonk

All SPAM goes in the trash unread.

Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com
The most personalized portal on the Web! --EXCITEBOUNDARY_000__104d44f39314803dc115f47a46564ce3-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 27 20:43:42 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0S4hPiu013247; Thu, 27 Jan 2005 20:43:26 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0S4hNOE013223; Thu, 27 Jan 2005 20:43:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 20:43:23 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 23:41:55 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: Mozilla Firefox - Thumbs up! In-reply-to: <5.2.0.9.2.20050127133333.046dd408 mail.dlsi.net> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: <3xpTgC.A.hOD.rLc-BB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57339 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: It won't run on Mac OS 9 or earlier. Harry Steven Krivit at steven newenergytimes.com wrote: > >> >> While we are on the subject of the Web, I recommend the new Mozilla >> Firefox in place of the well known browser from you-know-who that is >> usually referred to by its initials so that it sounds like "Aaiiiieee" (or >> "Oy Gevalt!" in plain English.) >> >> - Jed > > What I like most about it so far is it's default "no pop-ups" policy. Of, > perhaps 200 web sites I've been to since using it, only one failed to > display properly with Firefox. > > It's time to get the word out to web programmers that "Works best with > Internet Explorer" is passe. > > http://www.mozilla.org/ > > > My webstats indicate that 70% of you use IE, and 19% of you use Firefox. > > > s > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 28 01:42:52 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0S9gW1H032756; Fri, 28 Jan 2005 01:42:36 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0S9gTMR032733; Fri, 28 Jan 2005 01:42:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 01:42:29 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Ultrafunk Popcorn release 1.47 (30-July-2003) X-URL: http://www.ultrafunk.com/products/popcorn/ X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 10:41:34 +0100 From: Michael Huffman To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Mozilla Firefox - Thumbs up! Reply-To: knuke sumosound.de Message-Id: X-Provags-ID: kundenserver.de abuse kundenserver.de auth:b76291440de0a671bf17bfec730be47d Resent-Message-ID: <3Lj2R.A.Z_H.Ekg-BB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57340 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > >Anybody using Linspire (Linux) 4.5? > >Jones Haven't had the chance, but I switched everybody at work over to Konqueror and Kmail, the programs that come (or should I say Kome?) with the KDE package. My co-workers are quite happy with them. In the more recent incarnations of KDE, they cobbled a bunch of separate programs together with a common user interface for the e-mail program, Kmail, so that it more closely resembles Outlook. It has a calendar, day planner, group messaging capabilities, and some other junk. The result was mammouth program that was ugly, loaded much more slowly, and nobody was using any of the other features (just like Outlook!). I dug around a bit, and found a way to load just the Kmail program itself, and everybody was happy again. As for security, Kmail has the ability let you read your e-mail while it is still on the ISP server. You can delete anything that looks suspicious on your ISP server before it is brought over to your machine. I have found that European ISPs are much more proactive in protecting their customer base from viruses, trojans, spam, etc., than their American counterparts, but occasionally I do get a spam e-mail or a virus in my e-mail. It is a very rare occurrence when a bad e-mail makes it through the ISP's filters here, but having the ability to delete it on the ISP server prevents any unpleasant surprises. I am not sure if Outlook allows you to do this, since I have not used the M$oft e-mail clients for well over a decade. I know that it did not use to allow it, and it would automatically open and execute everything that landed in your mailbox. That was what prompted me to look around for alternatives in the first place. If M$oft did improve their e-mail client, I'm sure that took an Act of Congress to get them to do so. I have read that the Mozilla e-mail client is also pretty decent, and one of the guys here at work uses it in Linux. He swears by it. Again, my experience with Linux is so limited that if I do get something to function here the way I would like it to, the champagne corks fly, and I do not have the luxury, timewise, to be comparing a lot of different programs. I have also read some good things about the email client Evolution. It is recommended by Linus, himself. I have it on my machine, and I have popped it up to take a look at it, but I haven't used it on a daily basis. What I recommend for an e-mail client for Windoze is Popcorn from Ultrafunk. It is incredibly free, small, fast, and allows you to read everything in plain text on your ISP server before you take it on to your machine. It only reads plain text, so you are fairly safe. You need another client if you want to look at foto attachments or HTML rendered e-mail. I particularly like it because I can easily fit it on to my USB stick, and check my mail on any Windoze machine I happen to find myself sitting on at the moment, anywhere in the world. After reading my mail, I just let it sit on the ISP server until I get home. I should look around for something similar for Linux, as I find myself sitting on more and more Linux machines as time goes by. Perhaps Horace has a suggestion. Knuke From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 28 04:53:18 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0SCr71H001700; Fri, 28 Jan 2005 04:53:07 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0SCr6gZ001690; Fri, 28 Jan 2005 04:53:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 04:53:06 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.1.2.0.0.20050128070835.0230f280 pop.theworld.com> X-Sender: mica pop.theworld.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.2.0 Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 07:41:34 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Physics Today 1/25/05 - Feder In-Reply-To: <41F941F1.8090007 ix.netcom.com> References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050124154117.02ae1a08 pop.mindspring.com> <6.1.2.0.0.20050125072714.00ba7948 pop.theworld.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050125150128.02a7d6b0 pop.mindspring.com> <6.1.2.0.0.20050125194400.020ceb20 pop.theworld.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050126094013.02a9ad78 pop.mindspring.com> <6.1.2.0.0.20050127081136.00ba7978 pop.theworld.com> <41F91A81.4030607 ix.netcom.com> <6.1.2.0.0.20050127120834.02189010 pop.theworld.com> <41F941F1.8090007 ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <8pr1qB.A.Va.xWj-BB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57341 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 02:33 PM 1/27/2005, Edmund "JohnnyCJohnny" Storms wrote: >Neither Jed nor I have any reason to keep his papers off the site, other >than his lack of cooperation. We publish all papers that can be >understood and are of value to the field. As anyone can see, our >standards are rather low, but not absent. Swartz's papers fall well within >this standard. However, some papers do not, hence Swartz's charge of >censorship. Ed Storms is being disingenuous. It is not clear why continues the misstatements with Rothwell, but they require a response. First, The matter involves the TITLES of the papers delivered at ICCF-10. The "files" discussed here are not the papers, but the NAMES of the papers and the names which were removed. Second, there has been much previous cooperation by many with him, and then disappointment with him and Rothwell, even by Prof Hagelstein who put ICCF10 together and watched the continued games of Storms and Rothwell about this (and other matters reportedly). NOTA BENE: The censorship involves removing the three paper TITLES of lectures (and a poster with active cold fusion demonstration lasting one week, given at ICCF-10. Third, OTOH, it may be true that LENR CANR site has "rather low" standards as Dr. Storms admits, but that is their choice. Rothwell and Storms obviously have some reason from censoring the field. ====================================================================== >Of course, neither Swartz nor I, nor Jed, can prove our individual >viewpoints. Consequently, readers, if it is important at all, will have >to come to their own conclusions based on the past history of each of >us. Therefore, this is the last comment I will make on the subject. In fact, the viewpoint against Storms and Rothwell is proven, and widely proven, including by a series of letters, and even by the previous and original list of papers given at ICCF10. ====================================================================== It is unfortunate that censorship, plagiarism, and 'science by politics' exist at all, but as Dr. Mallove once said, "This is known as science by politics -- it is disgusting. Storms doesn't have leg to stand on and he knows it." - the late Dr. Eugene Mallove Q.E.D. Dr. Mitchell Swartz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 28 06:13:55 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0SEDj1H005090; Fri, 28 Jan 2005 06:13:45 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0SEDgX0005069; Fri, 28 Jan 2005 06:13:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 06:13:43 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=Bkt8ucewr4NXJslPGkk20QbYe7mPy8jCu+4kyawAiHxVvq/4XiE4ckaD4ziYa8/D; Message-ID: <410-220051528131326830 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Spinning Supermagnets & Antigravity? Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 07:13:26 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940157050de4fb58f57fa73cff245374c08350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.165.138 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57342 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Anyone tried this? http://www.amazing1.com/cgi-bin/Blah/Blah.pl?b=ag,v=print,m=1053138079 "its been shown in a ton of different places that spinning magnets can demonstrate some kind of antigravity. "Where? Surely Bill Beaty has tried it.The motion of the magnet spinning about it's axis should create a 1/R^2 Electric Field: E = - dB/dt Protons and electrons are spinning magnets, but they are spinning so close to c that time dilation sets in and weakens the force "gravitational?" between them. How about spinning two supermagnets far enough apart that the 1/R^4 magnetic force is minimal, but the 1/R^2 electrostatic force is still measurable? Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

 
 
 
Anyone tried this?

http://www.amazing1.com/cgi-bin/Blah/Blah.pl?b=ag,v=print,m=1053138079

"its been shown in a ton of different places that spinning magnets can demonstrate some kind of antigravity.

"Where? Surely Bill Beaty has tried it.The motion of the magnet spinning about it's axis should create a 1/R^2 Electric Field:

E = - dB/dt 

Protons and electrons are spinning magnets, but they are spinning so close to c that time

dilation sets in and weakens the force "gravitational?" between them.

How about spinning two supermagnets far enough apart that the 1/R^4 magnetic force

is minimal, but the 1/R^2 electrostatic force is still measurable?

Frederick

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 28 07:15:59 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0SFFV1H009664; Fri, 28 Jan 2005 07:15:37 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0SFFUlw009645; Fri, 28 Jan 2005 07:15:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 07:15:30 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001d01c5054c$299ee620$0100007f xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Camelot Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 09:15:11 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0019_01C50519.DE905790" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-99.5 required=4.0 tests=HTML_40_50,HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57343 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C50519.DE905790 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_001A_01C50519.DE905790" ------=_NextPart_001_001A_01C50519.DE905790 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankI am becoming more aware daily that this group has something = special.=20 Perhaps the song... "These is no such thing as Camelot.. but.. if it = were.. it would only last for a little while." Is a proper description of the group I notice each of you practices a self discipline that keeps the themes = and threads alive. I commend all for making a contribution toward the = interest generated and the professional conduct demonstrated. This truly makes a bond among people in the world of cyberspace. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_001A_01C50519.DE905790 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
I am becoming more aware daily that this group = has=20 something special.
 
Perhaps the song... "These is no such thing as = Camelot..=20 but.. if it were.. it would only last for a little while."
Is a proper description of the = group
 
I notice each of you practices = a self=20 discipline that keeps the themes and threads alive. I commend all for=20 making a contribution toward the interest generated and the = professional=20 conduct demonstrated.
 
This truly makes a bond among people in the = world of=20 cyberspace.
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_001A_01C50519.DE905790-- ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C50519.DE905790 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <001801c5054c$2927ba50$0100007f xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C50519.DE905790-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 28 07:18:38 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0SFIC1H011058; Fri, 28 Jan 2005 07:18:18 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0SFIAfr011034; Fri, 28 Jan 2005 07:18:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 07:18:10 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050128101409.02964140 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 10:17:35 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Thanks for the idea? In-Reply-To: <3E54A0DD.90805 zipworld.com.au> References: <84.a9af538.2b857d24 aol.com> <3E54A0DD.90805 zipworld.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_1872093==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: <3Tln8C.A.RsC.yel-BB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57344 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --=====================_1872093==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Alan Schneider wrote: >If I understand the intent of this posting correctly, >Mr. Carey is threatening to flood Vortex (and by >implication a number of other lists . . . >JCarey9622 aol.com wrote: >> I understand Many are filtering me out and will not deal with me in >> regard to the new different technology situations I have >> presented. So When we start our CO> soon the computer genius will >> create E mail programs that will describe our company technology >> concepts. . . . Fortunately, that will not work. E-mail filters function equally well with Vortex or direct-mail. I filter out all of Carey's messages regardless of how or where they are posted. (I would not have known about this one if Schneider had not mentioned it.) The ISPs and e-mail programs are gradually winning the battle against spam. - Jed --=====================_1872093==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Alan Schneider wrote:

If I understand the intent of this posting correctly,
Mr. Carey is threatening to flood Vortex (and by
implication a number of other lists  . . .

JCarey9622 aol.com wrote:
  I understand   Many are filtering me out and will not deal with me in regard to the new different technology situations I have presented.     So When we start our  CO> soon the computer genius will create E mail programs that will describe our company technology concepts. . . .

Fortunately, that will not work. E-mail filters function equally well with Vortex or direct-mail. I filter out all of Carey's messages regardless of how or where they are posted. (I would not have known about this one if Schneider had not mentioned it.)

The ISPs and e-mail programs are gradually winning the battle against spam.

- Jed
 --=====================_1872093==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 28 07:32:01 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0SFVg1H016947; Fri, 28 Jan 2005 07:31:51 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0SFVf1W016934; Fri, 28 Jan 2005 07:31:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 07:31:41 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050128103016.02936dc8 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 10:31:24 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Thanks for the idea? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_2699281==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57345 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --=====================_2699281==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Oops. That was sent in response to an ancient message, from 2003. I had the messages sorted in the wrong order, not by date. Sorry. - Jed --=====================_2699281==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Oops. That was sent in response to an ancient message, from 2003. I had the messages sorted in the wrong order, not by date. Sorry.

- Jed
 --=====================_2699281==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 28 07:40:37 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0SFeO1H020597; Fri, 28 Jan 2005 07:40:24 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0SFeLi4020573; Fri, 28 Jan 2005 07:40:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 07:40:21 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050128103514.02a8a2f8 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 10:38:01 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Britz: Not enough gas to cause explosion? In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050127165422.02ae4ec0 pop.mindspring.com> References: <01cf01c504b1$1bf01ad0$ea49ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> <6.2.0.14.2.20050127165422.02ae4ec0 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_3218281==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57346 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --=====================_3218281==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Dieter Britz also wonders how such a small amount of gas might have caused such a large explosion in Mizuno's cell. He wrote to me: "It is also hard to imagine that there should have been enough for such a violent explosion. You have no doubt seen the school experiment, where a lighted taper is inserted into a tube with some hydrogen in it - you get a nice "pop". In an open cell, after a short time of electrolysis, that is what I would expect. So this is very strange and I have no guesses." I have to admit, the people pursuing the hydrino explanation do have a point. I do not know enough about explosions to judge the issue. It is not just the total energy involved; you also have to take into account the speed of the reaction, the shape of the container, and so on. That is why bullets are so much more destructive than firecrackers. - Jed --=====================_3218281==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Dieter Britz also wonders how such a small amount of gas might have caused such a large explosion in Mizuno's cell. He wrote to me:

"It is also hard to imagine that there should have been enough for such a violent explosion. You have no doubt seen the school experiment, where a lighted taper is inserted into a tube with some hydrogen in it - you get a nice "pop". In an open cell, after a short time of electrolysis, that is what I would expect. So this is very strange and I have no guesses."

I have to admit, the people pursuing the hydrino explanation do have a point.

I do not know enough about explosions to judge the issue. It is not just the total energy involved; you also have to take into account the speed of the reaction, the shape of the container, and so on. That is why bullets are so much more destructive than firecrackers.

- Jed
 --=====================_3218281==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 28 08:08:42 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0SG8K1H006739; Fri, 28 Jan 2005 08:08:20 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0SG8Ibq006715; Fri, 28 Jan 2005 08:08:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 08:08:18 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050128105437.02a8a2f8 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 11:08:02 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Physics Today 1/25/05 - Feder In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.0.20050127120834.02189010 pop.theworld.com> References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050124154117.02ae1a08 pop.mindspring.com> <6.1.2.0.0.20050125072714.00ba7948 pop.theworld.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050125150128.02a7d6b0 pop.mindspring.com> <6.1.2.0.0.20050125194400.020ceb20 pop.theworld.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050126094013.02a9ad78 pop.mindspring.com> <6.1.2.0.0.20050127081136.00ba7978 pop.theworld.com> <41F91A81.4030607 ix.netcom.com> <6.1.2.0.0.20050127120834.02189010 pop.theworld.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57347 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell Swartz wrote: > First, The matter involves the TITLES of the papers delivered at ICCF-10. > The "files" discussed here are not the papers, but the NAMES of the papers > and the names which were removed. We put the titles back! They are in the database! Why are you still complaining about this, Mitch? I doubt these papers will ever be published, because I gather Peter is too busy to produce the printed version of the ICCF10 Proceedings. But as a favor to you, we will leave the titles in our database. I think it is silly to list papers that will never be published in a bibliography, but it is a small matter. I deleted some other ICCF10 papers from the database because they never came to me, but I do not recall the titles. The authors have not complained, so I will not worry about it. If they complain I will reinstate the titles. By the way, Mitch (and other authors), if you would like us to remove any of your titles from the database, just let us know. Also, obviously, we will remove, revise or correct any full text papers from the Library at the author's request. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 28 08:16:16 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0SGFv1H012997; Fri, 28 Jan 2005 08:16:01 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0SGFsTN012978; Fri, 28 Jan 2005 08:15:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 08:15:54 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <3khj1l$gr9ikm mxip09a.cluster1.charter.net> X-Ironport-AV: i="3.88,162,1102309200"; d="scan'208"; a="565496470:sNHT18051484" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.12 (webedge20-101-197-20030912) From: To: CC: Subject: Re: Re: Physics Today 1/25/05 - Feder Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 16:15:24 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <1xqLE.A.oKD.5Um-BB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57348 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: Mitchell Swartz ... > Ed Storms is being disingenuous. It is not clear why > continues the misstatements with Rothwell, but they > require a response. ... > Dr. Mitchell Swartz > It's been my experience that first impressions all too often generate lasting and devastating perceptions. So far, my initial impressions of Dr. Swartz is of an individual more interested in destroying the professional reputations of certain colleagues within the CF community, as compared to revealing what he has personally accomplished that in turn would allow me to respect his professional reputation. I freely admit that this is probably an inaccurate perception of mine. Never the less, when an individual's current public correspondence within vortex-l appears to be focused on how certain individuals appear to have mistreated and/or ignored his own work as compared to focusing on explaining WHAT their personal work appears to have accomplished in the first place, well, it leaves me with the perception that personal feelings of inadequacy are being subconsciously and inappropriately displaced upon the shoulders of others. I would imagine that this is NOT the kind of "first impression" Dr. Swartz would like to leave individuals like me with. On the other hand, if Dr. Swartz doesn't really care how I personally perceive his professional reputation then why does he continue to post personal perceptions of all the wrongs he feels have been done to him where individuals like me constantly have the choice of reading them and evaluating the professional reputation of the individual making them. I'm baffled, Dr. Swartz. It's obvious that you don't get along with Dr. Storms and Mr. Rothwell, but that's ALL I know about you. What do you stand for? Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com svj orionworks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 28 08:21:54 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0SGLe1H015573; Fri, 28 Jan 2005 08:21:40 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0SGLYju015489; Fri, 28 Jan 2005 08:21:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 08:21:34 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <003b01c50554$b37c80c0$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <01cf01c504b1$1bf01ad0$ea49ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> <6.2.0.14.2.20050127165422.02ae4ec0@pop.mindspring.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050128103514.02a8a2f8@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Britz: Not enough gas to cause explosion? Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 08:16:18 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57349 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed Rothwell writes. > I have to admit, the people pursuing the hydrino explanation do have a point. Here is a suggestion (w/ input from Fred Sparber) that might be woth mentioning to Mizuno, or anyone else working with K or Sr or Rb electrolytes, alone or in combinations. BTW, Rb should be the most active of these, based on the theoretical "fit" but a combination of the three should have synergy becasue of the "spread" of IP energy "holes" based on Table 5.2 in my edition of CQM. The most active combination of electrolytes would most likely be a trade secret, so don't expect any confirmation from Mills. It is potentially possible to easily detect hydrinos in ongoing electrolytes as they form over time, in a simple procedure, without much expense and without moving the cell. You would only need to shut it off for a few seconds, take your reading and continue. Assuming that the tighter "orbital" of the hydrino would create a drastically altered magnetic field, and there is every reason to suspect this, then If one were to measure the bulk magnetic field of a hydino-active electrolyte with any magnetometer, especially a "proton precession magnetometer," which can be easily contructed by anyone at minimal cost; and then measure before the electrolysis begins and periodically during electrolysis (there is no need to even remove the reactor, as this can be done 'in situ'... then after a few days of potassium (etc) hydroxide electrolysis, there should be a drastic change in the bulk magnetic field properties of the reactor, IF but only if lots of hydrinos were being created. http://www.portup.com/~dfount/proton.htm "In a simple proton precession magnetometer, a bottle of fluid rich in hydrogen atoms, usually distilled water or a hydrocarbon such as kerosene or alcohol, is surrounded by a coil of wire which can be energized by a direct current to produce a strong magnetic field. When the current is shut off, the precessing protons induce a very weak signal into the same coil, which is now connected to a suitable output device. This output circuitry may be a frequency counter calibrated to give a direct readout of of magnetic field strength." Jones BTW, if one wished to maximize hydrino "manufacture" then it would seem that a combination of both Rb, K and Sr electrolytes would be an improvement as they cover different IP ranges. Since you need to get to the first stage quickly, I would suggest that half or more of the mole% be Rb hydroxide. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 28 08:38:29 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0SGc41H024254; Fri, 28 Jan 2005 08:38:08 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0SGc2SL024233; Fri, 28 Jan 2005 08:38:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 08:38:02 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <41FA6AC7.10203 ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 09:39:35 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Britz: Not enough gas to cause explosion? References: <01cf01c504b1$1bf01ad0$ea49ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> <6.2.0.14.2.20050127165422.02ae4ec0@pop.mindspring.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050128103514.02a8a2f8@pop.mindspring.com> <003b01c50554$b37c80c0$d0bcfea9@jonesb9pacbell> In-Reply-To: <003b01c50554$b37c80c0$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57350 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I suggest several facts must be kept in mind when proposing the hydrino explanation. 1. Energy is only released when hydrinos are formed, not when accumulated hydrinos are returned to "normal". 2. Hydrino production can only be produced rather slowly, only as rapidly as normal H diffuses to the active site and the resulting hydrino diffuses away. 3. According to Mills, hydrinos do not react with oxygen to produce hydrino water. These facts would seem to make the hydrino explanation unlikely. Nevertheless, I agree that too much energy seems to have been released to be accounted for by a "normal" H2+O2 reaction. Ed Storms Jones Beene wrote: > Jed Rothwell writes. > > >>I have to admit, the people pursuing the hydrino > > explanation do have a point. > > > Here is a suggestion (w/ input from Fred Sparber) that might > be woth mentioning to Mizuno, or anyone else working with K > or Sr or Rb electrolytes, alone or in combinations. > > BTW, Rb should be the most active of these, based on the > theoretical "fit" but a combination of the three should have > synergy becasue of the "spread" of IP energy "holes" based > on Table 5.2 in my edition of CQM. The most active > combination of electrolytes would most likely be a trade > secret, so don't expect any confirmation from Mills. > > It is potentially possible to easily detect hydrinos in > ongoing electrolytes as they form over time, in a simple > procedure, without much expense and without moving the cell. > You would only need to shut it off for a few seconds, take > your reading and continue. > > Assuming that the tighter "orbital" of the hydrino would > create a drastically altered magnetic field, and there is > every reason to suspect this, then If one were to measure > the bulk magnetic field of a hydino-active electrolyte with > any magnetometer, especially a "proton precession > magnetometer," which can be easily contructed by anyone at > minimal cost; and then measure before the electrolysis > begins and periodically during electrolysis (there is no > need to even remove the reactor, as this can be done 'in > situ'... then after a few days of potassium (etc) hydroxide > electrolysis, there should be a drastic change in the bulk > magnetic field properties of the reactor, IF but only if > lots of hydrinos were being created. > > http://www.portup.com/~dfount/proton.htm > > "In a simple proton precession magnetometer, a bottle of > fluid rich in hydrogen atoms, usually distilled water or a > hydrocarbon such as kerosene or alcohol, is surrounded by a > coil of wire which can be energized by a direct current to > produce a strong magnetic field. When the current is shut > off, the precessing protons induce a very weak signal into > the same coil, which is now connected to a suitable output > device. This output circuitry may be a frequency counter > calibrated to give a direct readout of of magnetic field > strength." > > Jones > > BTW, if one wished to maximize hydrino "manufacture" then it > would seem that a combination of both Rb, K and Sr > electrolytes would be an improvement as they cover different > IP ranges. Since you need to get to the first stage quickly, > I would suggest that half or more of the mole% be Rb > hydroxide. > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 28 08:55:28 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0SGtE1H004363; Fri, 28 Jan 2005 08:55:15 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0SGtCtt004340; Fri, 28 Jan 2005 08:55:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 08:55:12 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <01a501c50559$66f09c00$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: Subject: Repost of "Thermacore" Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 08:49:58 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57351 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: As mentioned in prior postings, the Potassium electrolytic heat cell idea and patent is not owned nor invented by Mills/ BLP, not do the current British claimants (scam artists) Eccles/ Watts have even the remotest claim to originality. Thermacore Patent 5,273,635 December 28, 1993 Inventors: Gernert; Nelson J. (Elizabethtown, PA); Shaubach; Robert M. (Litiz, PA); Ernst; Donald M. (Leola, PA) Note: Randell Mills is NOT listed as co-inventor. If the patent was actually granted in 1993, it was submitted far earlier. At that time the lag time was about 4 years. So the extent of Mills' creative involvement is not clear. Mills and first research facility were also located in Lancaster (Thermacore Hdqts) in the early 1990s, and he early-on teamed up with Thermacore to develop the "wet" electrolytic cell using potassium catalyst. If Mills were an actual co-inventor, then it was probably a mistake for him not to have his name included on the disclosure as there is absolutely NO requirement that the inventor must have any employment relationship with the patent owner. Though the original patent is owned by Thermacore, not BLP, it seems that there must have been complicated agreements that neither side liked - and the partnership soon disintegrated. Mills went on to forego the "wet" electrolytic research in favor of first, a gas-phase implementation, but now almost exclusively, plasma phase. Consider this quote from Thermacore: "Light water electrolytic experiments at Thermacore show positive results. The most outstanding example is a cell producing 41 watts of heat with only 5 watts of electrical input. The cell has operated continuously for over one year..." This does not sound to me like a process that is so corrosive that it cannot be commercialized. The electrolytic battery, for example, using sulfuric acid is far more corrosive and, shall we say, there are quite a few of them around, even if they must be replaced every 4-5 years. Thermacore Electrolytic heater- Abstract "A heater which uses the electrolysis of a liquid to produce heat from electricity and transfers the heat from the electrolyte by means of a heat exchanger. One embodiment includes electrodes of nickel and platinum and an electrolyte of potassium carbonate with a heat exchanger immersed in and transferring heat from the electrolyte. " Thermacore International is now a subsidiary of Modine Manufacturing Company, and a global supplier of thermal engineering products for many industries. With manufacturing locations in Lancaster, Pa in the USA, and overseas in Mexico, the U.K., Taiwan, Japan, and Korea, Thermacore provides B2B manufacturing to other OEMs along with design R&D & manufacturing. It was formerly an independent ultra high-tech outfit, with compounded growth of 40% annually before the manufacturing economy went sour, and more recently it was acquired by Modine. Nobody really seems to knows what was going on with Thermacore or what their relationship with Mills became after merger with Modine. The only thing that seems clear is that Modine decided not to pursue the technology. However, it could well be that the wet electrolytic hydrino technology, and perhaps some of the original personnel, did not fit well into the Modine corporate culture, and realizing the unfulfilled potential of the wet cell, these R&D folks decided to leave. Here are some very interesting pdf files from the Mills' BLP site, relating to Thermacore (if the papers are still there): http://www.hydrino.org/Labs/Anomalous-Heat-from-Atomic-Hydrogen.pdf http://www.hydrino.org/Labs/Final-Report-Nascent-Hydrogen.pdf For emphasis, let me repeat: THE CELL OPERATED CONTINUOUSLY FOR OVER ONE YEAR. This was prior to the Modine merger. Now, remember, this statement is not coming from some fly-by-night self-promoting entrepreneur, nor even some university professor who is ignorant of manufacturing realities and corporate intrigue - but instead it comes from one of the most well-respected of high-tech firms, a manufacturing firm, and the inventors of the heat-pipe and many other wonderful thermal inventions. Again, the British announcement by the Eccles/Watts group was gravely deficient for not mentioning this most relevant background, and their callous plea for funding is abhorrent under circumstances of what must be *intentional non-disclosure*. This failure to credit others and disclose prior patent status casts serious doubt on both their (the Watt group) integrity and the thoroughness of their research, and may even approach criminal misconduct, since a plea for money comes along with their claim of original invention. A 5-minute Google search would have turned all of this up (as it has been posted to Vortex before). Jones Thermacore Patent 5,273,635 December 28, 1993 http://tinyurl.com/3nygq From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 28 09:09:33 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0SH8q1H012393; Fri, 28 Jan 2005 09:08:53 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0SH8lCG012345; Fri, 28 Jan 2005 09:08:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 09:08:47 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <01ad01c5055b$0d5404a0$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <01cf01c504b1$1bf01ad0$ea49ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> <6.2.0.14.2.20050127165422.02ae4ec0@pop.mindspring.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050128103514.02a8a2f8@pop.mindspring.com> <003b01c50554$b37c80c0$d0bcfea9@jonesb9pacbell> <41FA6AC7.10203@ix.netcom.com> Subject: Re: Britz: Not enough gas to cause explosion? Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 09:01:45 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57352 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Ed, > I suggest several facts must be kept in mind when proposing the hydrino > explanation. > 1. Energy is only released when hydrinos are formed, not when > accumulated hydrinos are returned to "normal". That, of course, is part of Mills' explanation. But we should keep in mind two things: 1) that he could very easily have discovered the process; but yet he still got many of the details in his theory wrong, or half-right. 2) there could be an autocatalytic stage, following build-up of hydrinos over time. Some of us have been saying for some time that it appears from analyzing many of the past results, that the first few redundant ground states of hydrino formation (at least the first) could be endothermic, not exothermic. Moreover, If at a certain stage in the ongoing process, the shrinkage below ground state does continue and becomes atuocatalytic - all the way down to n = 1/137 then of course those last 100+ steps would shed tremendous energy very rapidly. Had Mizuno been using a G-M monitor at the time, there would have been a big spike at the time of the explosion, as the lower stages are all soft x-rays, in theory. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 28 09:25:21 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0SHPB1H023138; Fri, 28 Jan 2005 09:25:11 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0SHP87p023112; Fri, 28 Jan 2005 09:25:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 09:25:08 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <41FA75D3.4030403 ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 10:26:43 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Physics Today 1/25/05 - Feder References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050124154117.02ae1a08 pop.mindspring.com> <6.1.2.0.0.20050125072714.00ba7948@pop.theworld.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050125150128.02a7d6b0@pop.mindspring.com> <6.1.2.0.0.20050125194400.020ceb20@pop.theworld.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050126094013.02a9ad78@pop.mindspring.com> <6.1.2.0.0.20050127081136.00ba7978@pop.theworld.com> <41F91A81.4030607@ix.netcom.com> <6.1.2.0.0.20050127120834.02189010@pop.theworld.com> <41F941F1.8090007@ix.netcom.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050127153854.02ae1420@pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050127153854.02ae1420 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57353 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > Edmund Storms wrote: > >> We publish all papers that can be understood and are of value to the >> field. As anyone can see, our standards are rather low, but not absent. > > > Ahem! I would prefer to say our standards are "rather broad minded" or > perhaps "forgiving." Our standards are low, as anyone working in conventional science will clearly see. Mincing words only makes us look like we are playing word games or do not know how to judge good and bad work. Of course the standard has to be low because the field has only just matured sufficiently so that good papers are possible. Many of the early papers had to be poorly written and wrong in many respects, because the information and concepts were so incomplete. Nevertheless, they contain useful information that becomes more easily identified as we better understand the effect. All new discoveries go through this process and the problem is not usually used to totally reject the idea, as is done in this field. Ed > > Okay, it means the same thing, but the situation calls to mind Darrell > Huff's observation in his immortal book "How To Lie With Statistics:" > > "The fact is, despite its mathematical base, statistics is as much an > art as it is a science. A great many manipulations and even distortions > are possible within the bounds of propriety. Often the statistician must > choose among methods, a subjective process, and find the one that he > will use to represent the facts. In commercial practice he is about as > unlikely to select an unfavorable method as a copywriter is to call his > sponsor's product flimsy and cheap when he might as well say light and > economical." > > - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 28 10:13:03 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0SICm1H019448; Fri, 28 Jan 2005 10:12:49 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0SIClqd019405; Fri, 28 Jan 2005 10:12:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 10:12:47 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Repost of "Thermacore" Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 13:13:21 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <01a501c50559$66f09c00$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57354 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Jones. I met with Robert Shaubach when this work first came out, he was the point man for Thermacore and was promoting the work through conferences ( not sure which one though, probably the IECEC but I'd have to check ). Anyway, Robert was pretty clear that Mills was the driving force behind this patent. It was presented as a joint project, and Mills was credited with the idea, theory, and experimental apparatus. Why his name doesn't appear as a coinventor is a little mysterious, but perhaps Randy could shed some light here. I no nothing of the contractual arrangements between Mills and thermacore, but I wouldn't read a great deal into it other than that they each had different priorities. If I were a skeptic, I would assume Thermacore became unconvinced of the results and pulled the plug, but I'm not. I suspect Mills may have felt it best to move forward on his own rather than be tied to a more conventional company and be hamstrung by the resulting micromanaging. He (Mills) strikes me as an independent sort, it's hard to imagine him doing the whole corporate thing unless he was at the head. K. -----Original Message----- From: Jones Beene [mailto:jonesb9 pacbell.net] Sent: Friday, January 28, 2005 11:50 AM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Repost of "Thermacore" As mentioned in prior postings, the Potassium electrolytic heat cell idea and patent is not owned nor invented by Mills/ BLP, not do the current British claimants (scam artists) Eccles/ Watts have even the remotest claim to originality. Thermacore Patent 5,273,635 December 28, 1993 Inventors: Gernert; Nelson J. (Elizabethtown, PA); Shaubach; Robert M. (Litiz, PA); Ernst; Donald M. (Leola, PA) Note: Randell Mills is NOT listed as co-inventor. If the patent was actually granted in 1993, it was submitted far earlier. At that time the lag time was about 4 years. So the extent of Mills' creative involvement is not clear. Mills and first research facility were also located in Lancaster (Thermacore Hdqts) in the early 1990s, and he early-on teamed up with Thermacore to develop the "wet" electrolytic cell using potassium catalyst. If Mills were an actual co-inventor, then it was probably a mistake for him not to have his name included on the disclosure as there is absolutely NO requirement that the inventor must have any employment relationship with the patent owner. Though the original patent is owned by Thermacore, not BLP, it seems that there must have been complicated agreements that neither side liked - and the partnership soon disintegrated. Mills went on to forego the "wet" electrolytic research in favor of first, a gas-phase implementation, but now almost exclusively, plasma phase. Consider this quote from Thermacore: "Light water electrolytic experiments at Thermacore show positive results. The most outstanding example is a cell producing 41 watts of heat with only 5 watts of electrical input. The cell has operated continuously for over one year..." This does not sound to me like a process that is so corrosive that it cannot be commercialized. The electrolytic battery, for example, using sulfuric acid is far more corrosive and, shall we say, there are quite a few of them around, even if they must be replaced every 4-5 years. Thermacore Electrolytic heater- Abstract "A heater which uses the electrolysis of a liquid to produce heat from electricity and transfers the heat from the electrolyte by means of a heat exchanger. One embodiment includes electrodes of nickel and platinum and an electrolyte of potassium carbonate with a heat exchanger immersed in and transferring heat from the electrolyte. " Thermacore International is now a subsidiary of Modine Manufacturing Company, and a global supplier of thermal engineering products for many industries. With manufacturing locations in Lancaster, Pa in the USA, and overseas in Mexico, the U.K., Taiwan, Japan, and Korea, Thermacore provides B2B manufacturing to other OEMs along with design R&D & manufacturing. It was formerly an independent ultra high-tech outfit, with compounded growth of 40% annually before the manufacturing economy went sour, and more recently it was acquired by Modine. Nobody really seems to knows what was going on with Thermacore or what their relationship with Mills became after merger with Modine. The only thing that seems clear is that Modine decided not to pursue the technology. However, it could well be that the wet electrolytic hydrino technology, and perhaps some of the original personnel, did not fit well into the Modine corporate culture, and realizing the unfulfilled potential of the wet cell, these R&D folks decided to leave. Here are some very interesting pdf files from the Mills' BLP site, relating to Thermacore (if the papers are still there): http://www.hydrino.org/Labs/Anomalous-Heat-from-Atomic-Hydrogen.pdf http://www.hydrino.org/Labs/Final-Report-Nascent-Hydrogen.pdf For emphasis, let me repeat: THE CELL OPERATED CONTINUOUSLY FOR OVER ONE YEAR. This was prior to the Modine merger. Now, remember, this statement is not coming from some fly-by-night self-promoting entrepreneur, nor even some university professor who is ignorant of manufacturing realities and corporate intrigue - but instead it comes from one of the most well-respected of high-tech firms, a manufacturing firm, and the inventors of the heat-pipe and many other wonderful thermal inventions. Again, the British announcement by the Eccles/Watts group was gravely deficient for not mentioning this most relevant background, and their callous plea for funding is abhorrent under circumstances of what must be *intentional non-disclosure*. This failure to credit others and disclose prior patent status casts serious doubt on both their (the Watt group) integrity and the thoroughness of their research, and may even approach criminal misconduct, since a plea for money comes along with their claim of original invention. A 5-minute Google search would have turned all of this up (as it has been posted to Vortex before). Jones Thermacore Patent 5,273,635 December 28, 1993 http://tinyurl.com/3nygq From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 28 10:37:45 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0SIbN1H000899; Fri, 28 Jan 2005 10:37:24 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0SIbKde000868; Fri, 28 Jan 2005 10:37:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 10:37:20 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050128133147.02ac4ca0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 13:37:08 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: RE: Mozilla Firefox - Thumbs up! In-Reply-To: References: <5.2.0.9.2.20050127133333.046dd408 mail.dlsi.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_13842750==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57355 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_13842750==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed For what it's worth -- LENR-CANR browsers August 2004 MS IE 6.x, 72% Mozilla (Firefox), 1% (Not officially released) The other 27% were mainly MS IE 5.x, Netscape, Mozilla 5.x, AOL 9.x and so on. December 11, 2004 MS IE 6.x, 62% Mozilla (Firefox), 8% (One month after official release) 1/26/2005 Last 4 weeks MS IE 6.x, 61% Mozilla (Firefox), 12% That is a dramatic change. - Jed --=====================_13842750==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" For what it's worth --

LENR-CANR browsers

August 2004
MS IE 6.x, 72%
Mozilla (Firefox), 1% (Not officially released)

The other 27% were mainly MS IE 5.x, Netscape, Mozilla 5.x, AOL 9.x and so on.


December 11, 2004
MS IE 6.x, 62%
Mozilla (Firefox), 8% (One month after official release)


1/26/2005 Last 4 weeks
MS IE 6.x, 61%
Mozilla (Firefox), 12%

That is a dramatic change.

- Jed
 --=====================_13842750==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 28 10:38:38 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0SIcE1H001475; Fri, 28 Jan 2005 10:38:15 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0SIcCWt001435; Fri, 28 Jan 2005 10:38:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 10:38:12 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <41FA86EF.50603 ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 11:39:43 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Britz: Not enough gas to cause explosion? References: <01cf01c504b1$1bf01ad0$ea49ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> <6.2.0.14.2.20050127165422.02ae4ec0@pop.mindspring.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050128103514.02a8a2f8@pop.mindspring.com> <003b01c50554$b37c80c0$d0bcfea9@jonesb9pacbell> <41FA6AC7.10203@ix.netcom.com> <01ad01c5055b$0d5404a0$d0bcfea9@jonesb9pacbell> In-Reply-To: <01ad01c5055b$0d5404a0$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57356 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Jones, Granted that an autocatalytic reaction is possible, several more facts have to be considered. 1. First of all, a destructive explosion occurs as a shock wave that is suddenly formed by release of energy and gas. A slow release of energy that does not produce a shock wave will dissipate without shattering the vessel, unless a pressure in excess of the bust strength of the container is maintained for a significant time, say several seconds. At which time, the container will separate at its weakest point, rather than shatter. Glass usually is found in pieces after such an event because the few large parts shatter upon hitting the nearest hard object. 2. Normal explosives form a shock wave because they produce a greater volume of gas than they initially occupy. The moving shock wave causes the chemical reaction (decomposition) within its region and grows in strength. For example, a natural gas explosion results in the reaction 2CH4 + 5O2 = 2CO + 8H2O where 7 moles of gas turns into 10 moles. In contrast, the 2H2 + O2 = 2H2O reaction actually shrinks in volume, from 3 to 2 moles. The shock wave is very brief and is only maintained by the expanded volume resulting from heating the gas. Even if the H = H* reaction were to occur, the energy has to go somewhere. Presumably, the energy goes into the O-- ion, which is a catalyst. As a result, the normal H2+O2 reaction energy is augmented by a small contribution from hydrino formation. This causes the normal shock wave to be sufficiently strong to break the container. How does this sound? Ed Jones Beene wrote: > Hi Ed, > > > >>I suggest several facts must be kept in mind when > > proposing the hydrino > >>explanation. > > >>1. Energy is only released when hydrinos are formed, not > > when > >>accumulated hydrinos are returned to "normal". > > > > That, of course, is part of Mills' explanation. But we > should keep in mind two things: > > 1) that he could very easily have discovered the process; > but yet he still got many of the details in his theory > wrong, or half-right. > > 2) there could be an autocatalytic stage, following build-up > of hydrinos over time. > > Some of us have been saying for some time that it appears > from analyzing many of the past results, that the first few > redundant ground states of hydrino formation (at least the > first) could be endothermic, not exothermic. > > Moreover, If at a certain stage in the ongoing process, the > shrinkage below ground state does continue and becomes > atuocatalytic - all the way down to n = 1/137 then of course > those last 100+ steps would shed tremendous energy very > rapidly. Had Mizuno been using a G-M monitor at the time, > there would have been a big spike at the time of the > explosion, as the lower stages are all soft x-rays, in > theory. > > Jones > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 28 10:57:15 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0SIur1H012121; Fri, 28 Jan 2005 10:56:54 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0SIukGE012040; Fri, 28 Jan 2005 10:56:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 10:56:46 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: From: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Superluminal updated a bit Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 18:56:23 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain X-UoB-Sender: R.O.Cornwall brighton.ac.uk Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57357 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Vorts, A bit better in the light of some comments now. http://luna.brighton.ac.uk/~roc1/index.htm Just follow links. Regards, Remi. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 28 11:08:40 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0SJ8E1H018900; Fri, 28 Jan 2005 11:08:15 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0SJ8Drc018881; Fri, 28 Jan 2005 11:08:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 11:08:13 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <01f601c5056b$fd6632a0$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <01cf01c504b1$1bf01ad0$ea49ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> <6.2.0.14.2.20050127165422.02ae4ec0@pop.mindspring.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050128103514.02a8a2f8@pop.mindspring.com> <003b01c50554$b37c80c0$d0bcfea9@jonesb9pacbell> <41FA6AC7.10203@ix.netcom.com> <01ad01c5055b$0d5404a0$d0bcfea9@jonesb9pacbell> <41FA86EF.50603@ix.netcom.com> Subject: Re: Britz: Not enough gas to cause explosion? Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 11:03:01 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57358 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ed > Even if the H = H* reaction were to occur, the energy has to go > somewhere. Presumably, the energy goes into the O-- ion, which is a > catalyst. As a result, the normal H2+O2 reaction energy is augmented by > a small contribution from hydrino formation. This causes the normal > shock wave to be sufficiently strong to break the container. > > How does this sound? Interesting... there is little doubt that the normal H2+O2 reaction was somehow augmented. As for the ignition source itself, even a few 27.2 eV EUV photons or higher from hydrino formation should be enough to trigger the normal H2+O2 reaction with no actual spark, and from then on, there could have been a steam-roller effect. And as ozone is much more soluble than O2 in H2O, depending on pH, that factor could conceivably have contributed to the intensity of a reaction where there was little headspace for O2 gas. Does anyone know the pH and temp near the time of the accident? I just wish he had been running a G-M data-logging monitor. BTW, even if that was not the case, it wouldn't hurt for him to analyze the debris for residual radioactivity. There could be a surprise there. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 28 11:30:14 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0SJTldc031440; Fri, 28 Jan 2005 11:29:47 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0SJTjYT031427; Fri, 28 Jan 2005 11:29:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 11:29:45 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Britz: Not enough gas to cause explosion? Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 14:30:11 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <41FA86EF.50603 ix.netcom.com> X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: <7lobhD.A.7qH.oKp-BB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57359 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Ed. Here's another thought. Let's assume a small quantity of gas ignites, sufficient to create an ionized bridge between anode and cathode. Would you have an arc discharge due to the power supply capacity in addition to the H2 and O2 gas recombination? Certainly if the supply is operating in constant current mode and voltage limiting is not set properly, I could see that happening. That would add more energy than the initial ~10 joules cemical energy in the gas. Would 10J be sufficient to see these effects alone? I think so, but I'm open to hearing more to the contrary. Perhaps Dr. M should make up some dummy resistive loads with a switch, and stress test his power supply before resuming experimentation. The power supply I used for this kind of work has crowbar features to handle such extreme conditions. But of course you have to set them to work...and I don't always do that (grin). I suspect I'm not alone in this regard. K. -----Original Message----- From: Edmund Storms [mailto:storms2 ix.netcom.com] Sent: Friday, January 28, 2005 1:40 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Britz: Not enough gas to cause explosion? Hi Jones, Granted that an autocatalytic reaction is possible, several more facts have to be considered. 1. First of all, a destructive explosion occurs as a shock wave that is suddenly formed by release of energy and gas. A slow release of energy that does not produce a shock wave will dissipate without shattering the vessel, unless a pressure in excess of the bust strength of the container is maintained for a significant time, say several seconds. At which time, the container will separate at its weakest point, rather than shatter. Glass usually is found in pieces after such an event because the few large parts shatter upon hitting the nearest hard object. 2. Normal explosives form a shock wave because they produce a greater volume of gas than they initially occupy. The moving shock wave causes the chemical reaction (decomposition) within its region and grows in strength. For example, a natural gas explosion results in the reaction 2CH4 + 5O2 = 2CO + 8H2O where 7 moles of gas turns into 10 moles. In contrast, the 2H2 + O2 = 2H2O reaction actually shrinks in volume, from 3 to 2 moles. The shock wave is very brief and is only maintained by the expanded volume resulting from heating the gas. Even if the H = H* reaction were to occur, the energy has to go somewhere. Presumably, the energy goes into the O-- ion, which is a catalyst. As a result, the normal H2+O2 reaction energy is augmented by a small contribution from hydrino formation. This causes the normal shock wave to be sufficiently strong to break the container. How does this sound? Ed Jones Beene wrote: > Hi Ed, > > > >>I suggest several facts must be kept in mind when > > proposing the hydrino > >>explanation. > > >>1. Energy is only released when hydrinos are formed, not > > when > >>accumulated hydrinos are returned to "normal". > > > > That, of course, is part of Mills' explanation. But we > should keep in mind two things: > > 1) that he could very easily have discovered the process; > but yet he still got many of the details in his theory > wrong, or half-right. > > 2) there could be an autocatalytic stage, following build-up > of hydrinos over time. > > Some of us have been saying for some time that it appears > from analyzing many of the past results, that the first few > redundant ground states of hydrino formation (at least the > first) could be endothermic, not exothermic. > > Moreover, If at a certain stage in the ongoing process, the > shrinkage below ground state does continue and becomes > atuocatalytic - all the way down to n = 1/137 then of course > those last 100+ steps would shed tremendous energy very > rapidly. Had Mizuno been using a G-M monitor at the time, > there would have been a big spike at the time of the > explosion, as the lower stages are all soft x-rays, in > theory. > > Jones > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 28 11:31:44 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0SJVUdc000342; Fri, 28 Jan 2005 11:31:30 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0SJVKV0032674; Fri, 28 Jan 2005 11:31:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 11:31:20 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050128192815.006ce6c4 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 19:28:15 +0000 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Hutchison effect Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57360 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: While researching the Hutchison Effect I came across this which I thought quite interesting. http://www.baytoday.ca/content/news/details.asp?c=6657 As for the Hutchison effect itself, I can quite believe that the discoverer stumbled across something or other. Unfortunately his approach is so horribly disorganized that it is going to be very hard for people to replicate his work. Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 28 11:58:36 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0SJwPvk016179; Fri, 28 Jan 2005 11:58:25 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0SJwMCS016150; Fri, 28 Jan 2005 11:58:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 11:58:22 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 11:58:21 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Entry to "Phenomena Reports" In-Reply-To: <010e01c504de$94f71a00$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> Message-ID: References: <010e01c504de$94f71a00$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57361 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Thu, 27 Jan 2005, Jones Beene wrote: > William Beaty writes > ------------------------------------------------------ > > WOW! I just experienced a disappearing-object event, BIG TIME, with no > > sensible explanations and no questionable issues to provide any excuses. > > This is the first time an object has vanished right before my eyes... > > > The object didn't disappear, Bill... well, not exactly... you see, there > was just this little software glitch, and you weren't supposed to even > notice... I find myself extremely tempted to pretend that the event never happened. In this case, it's my skepticism which is irrational. (I guess I'm slipping into CSICOP-style pseudoscience!) At some level I'm telling myself, "well, there must be SOME explanation, so the event isn't really important, and there's no need to think about it anymore." I have to consciously resist the urge to re-write history in order to erase the weirdness. Since everyone knows that objects cannot simply vanish, therefore my subconscious editor either strives to remember things differently, or to "accidentally" forget that it happened at all? :) Well, this whole event certainly drives home a little phrase: "it's different when it happens to you personally." To me the "vanishing- object" effect was old and well-known. Or so I thought! (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 28 11:59:31 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0SJxCvk016712; Fri, 28 Jan 2005 11:59:12 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0SJx7NI016665; Fri, 28 Jan 2005 11:59:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 11:59:07 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <022201c50573$1a322900$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: Subject: Ozone boosting mechanism Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 11:53:55 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_021F_01C50530.0B0B82C0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: <92DMbD.A.MEE.Kmp-BB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57362 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_021F_01C50530.0B0B82C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ed can surely supply more authoritative input on this, but... Ozone can be up to 15 times more soluble than O2 in H20, and is of = course about 50% denser anyway; plus it has a Electrochemical Potential = of 2.07 versus 1.23. UV light from hydrino formation or even glow discharge would have easily = created ozone in an ongoing and accumulative way, most of it immediately = reforming to O2 but some of it accumulating gradually up to its limit of = compatibility with hydroxyl radicals, which is probably low, but there = could have been as much as 5 milligrams of ozone per liter dissolved in = the liquid itself, if the temp of the cell was on the low side ? This, along with hydrino hydrides would have been accumulating over = time, just waiting for a small triggering reaction from H2 and O2 in the = headspace, which wouldn't have done much by itself, except to compress, = heat and release more of the soluble reactants, which had been dissolved = in the liquid. There could have been a smaller explosion followed by a = larger one, but to the human observer, it all seemed to run together as = one. That few milligrams of ozone doesn't sound like much but for a given = amount of H2 with which to react, just using ozone or hydroxyl oxidants = could double or triple the intensity of the shockwave because the = reaction happens so much faster... not to mention, releasing bound = hydrinos from the potassium... some of which might have even served to = quench the other reactions by re-inflating, if they didn't shrink = further, with a net input to the other reactions. The dynamics of this experiment, despite its unsatisfactory conclusion, = beg to be repeated but with adequate controls and protection. As Jed = implies, Mizuno is probably doing just that... form a safer distance. Is = there any reason to think the SRI incident could have been related to = this? Jones ------=_NextPart_000_021F_01C50530.0B0B82C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Ed can surely supply more authoritative input on this, but...
 
Ozone can be up to 15 times more soluble than O2 in H20, =  and is=20 of course about 50% denser anyway; plus it has a  = Electrochemical=20 Potential of 2.07 versus 1.23.
 
UV light from hydrino formation or even glow discharge would have = easily=20 created ozone in an ongoing and accumulative way, most of it immediately = reforming to O2 but some of it accumulating gradually up to its limit of = compatibility with hydroxyl radicals, which is probably low, but there = could=20 have been as much as 5 milligrams of ozone per liter dissolved in the = liquid=20 itself, if the temp of the cell was on the low side ?
 
This, along with hydrino hydrides would have been accumulating over = time,=20 just waiting for a small triggering reaction from H2 and O2 in the = headspace,=20 which wouldn't have done much by itself, except to compress, heat and = release=20 more of the soluble reactants, which had been dissolved in the=20 liquid. There could have been a smaller explosion followed by a = larger one,=20 but to the human observer, it all seemed to run together as one.
 
That few milligrams of ozone doesn't sound like much but for a = given amount=20 of H2 with which to react, just using ozone or hydroxyl = oxidants could=20 double or triple the intensity of the shockwave because the reaction = happens so=20 much faster... not to mention, releasing bound hydrinos from the = potassium...=20 some of which might have even served to quench the other reactions by=20 re-inflating, if they didn't shrink further, with a net input to the = other=20 reactions.
 
The dynamics of this experiment, despite its unsatisfactory = conclusion, beg=20 to be repeated but with adequate controls and protection. As Jed = implies, Mizuno=20 is probably doing just that... form a safer distance. Is there any = reason to=20 think the SRI incident could have been related to this?
 
Jones
------=_NextPart_000_021F_01C50530.0B0B82C0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 28 12:32:25 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0SKW6vk031761; Fri, 28 Jan 2005 12:32:07 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0SKW5M0031745; Fri, 28 Jan 2005 12:32:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 12:32:05 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 12:32:02 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Entry to "Phenomena Reports" In-Reply-To: <0b9501c504d9$186d2e70$4b01a8c0 colin5fc9e2583> Message-ID: References: <0b9501c504d9$186d2e70$4b01a8c0 colin5fc9e2583> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57363 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Thu, 27 Jan 2005, Colin Quinney wrote: > Wow. > > James Bond movie? No way. Sounds more like something seen in a John > Hutchison movie. Bill was the microwave oven on during this episode? Nope. This was around 9AM in the electronics shop at work, just after I'd arrived. I had purchased a paper cup of coffee from the espresso stand in the physics building, then I continued on to chem building. We have no bizarre equipment in this shop, but there is a collection of large superconducting magnet dewars in two differnet NMR labs on the same floor a couple hundred feet away. They are shorted DC, a Tesla or two of very constant b-field, no pulses. Latest news: the stir-stick appears to have returned. "Vanished" objects are known to usually reappear. Yesterday morning I kept looking around the microwave oven and on the floor to see if the stir-stick would show up again. Nothing. In the trash next to the microwave oven was the pair of tea bags and the stir-stick which had already been in my ceramic mug (this stir-stick was stained bright red from hibscus tea I'd been drinking the previous day, and I carefully and knowningly discarded it and the two tea bags while preparing to dump the coffee from the paper cup into the ceramic mug.) Then a friend reminded me to keep the paper coffee cup as a memento. When I retrieved it from the trash bag on the other side of the lab... I found THREE stir sticks in the trash below it. Two were coffee-stained. The extra un-stained stick was one which I'd found on my desk when searching the lab for the missing stick. It was dusty so I trashed it rather than putting it back in the box of wooden sticks. One of the stained sticks in the trash was the second one I used. The other brown-stained stick should not be there. The plastic trash bag had been emptied early that morning, and there was nothing else in it except the paper coffe cup, the plastic coffee lid, and three wooden sticks. Nobody else was drinking coffee or tea. I checked. The only "sensible" explanation is that the stir-stick was in the cup the whole time, and I couldn't see it. When I poured 3/4 of the coffee into the ceramic mug while expecting to find the submerged stick, I couldn't see it. When I carefully drank the small amount of remaining coffee in the paper cup and checked for stick fragments in the bit of choclate goo along the edge in the bottom of the cup, the stick was invisible to me. WHen I threw the second stick and the coffee cup in the trash, the "missing" stick had to be right there in the cup. If it REALLY winked out of existence, I would have reappeared by the microwave oven, not in the trash with the paper cup. Below is another vanishing-object story, this one from early years on Vortex-L. I think this message is the one which inspired me to start the http://amasci.com/weird/unusual/ reports page. (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty http://staff.washington.edu/wbeaty/ beaty chem.washington.edu Research Engineer billb amasci.com UW Chem Dept, Bagley Hall RM74 206-543-6195 Box 351700, Seattle, WA 98195-1700 Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 19:46:04 -0700 (PDT) From: dacha shentel.net Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: End of Science > I can't help but inject a bit of metaphysics in too. Einstein was > quoted as saying he wanted to find out "if God had any choice in > creating the Universe"? I think the answer to that is that he had no > choice if his Universe required intelligent carbon-based lifeforms. The > degree of fine tuning of the 3 subatomic forces neccessary to create > life is incredible. > >Martin Sevior > -----------------End of Original Message----------------- One could also ask "Is God really HE?" "Are we really here at all?" I am still perplexed by simple things. Several months ago I was working on a four pole digital filter. Each pole was a tuned brass chamber. The sections were connected to the other physically, but there was no opening between the chambers as a 50 ohm probe was used to couple the RF from pole filter to pole filter. Each filter was tuned with a large brass screw. I did a stupid thing (normal for me) and went in to far with a tuning screw on the end filter. It dropped into it's chamber. I opened the chamber to find the screw missing. I knew I had the right chamber because of the hole where the screw had been. I shook the whole assembly to hear a rattle. The filter did not rattle before the screw was dropped. I opened the chamber on the other end to find the missing screw. I studied the problem for many hours and saw no way the screw got into the wrong chamber. I allowed two visiting russian scientists to study the filter, at first smiling and then agreeing that what happened was impossible. This is a true story. Not interesting, but true. God may not play dice with the universe, but sometimes she will screw with your head. ------------------------------------- Name: dacha E-mail: dacha visor.com Date: 7/30/96 Time: 10:11:17 PM No matter where you go, there you are. http://www.visor.com/info ------------------------------------- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 28 12:42:22 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0SKg4vk005904; Fri, 28 Jan 2005 12:42:04 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0SKg2RN005881; Fri, 28 Jan 2005 12:42:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 12:42:02 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050128152522.02b22d30 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 15:39:37 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Ozone boosting mechanism In-Reply-To: <022201c50573$1a322900$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> References: <022201c50573$1a322900$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_21328343==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57364 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_21328343==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Jones Beene wrote: >The dynamics of this experiment, despite its unsatisfactory conclusion, >beg to be repeated but with adequate controls and protection. As Jed >implies, Mizuno is probably doing just that... I do not think so. Unless this was an ordinary electrochemical explosion, I doubt that Mizuno has the slightest idea how to re-create it. Consider this: he has been doing glow discharge experiments for years, perhaps a thousand times. It only exploded once, and as far as he knows conditions were no different this time than they were in previous experiments. The run was only beginning. The water was still at room temperature. It is hard to imagine anything he might have done in the first few minutes of the experiment that might have triggered anything like a cold fusion reaction. He would have to do another five or 10 years of experiments before it happened again at random. He does not have 10 more years. He does not even have 5 more year before he reaches mandatory retirement. As for triggering hydrino reactions . . . I am sure he has no clue how to do that. There are no detectors or instruments that would tell him he is stoking up hydrinos, or doing whatever it takes to make a batch of them go off at once. (Actually, as Ed points out, they should all *form* at once, which seems even more problematic.) If this is a hydrino event, he could not possibly re-create it because he would be working in the dark with no instruments, knowledge what techniques that would tell him current hydrino status. If ozone has anything to do with it he would be in a much better position of course. I expect he knows how to detect and deal with ozone. >Is there any reason to think the SRI incident could have been related to this? None whatever. It was completely explained by conventional chemistry. The SRI incident did not take much energy because the steel cell acted as a rocket. The total energy release was 39,700 J. (See ICCF3, p. 144) As I said, a bullet is much more destructive than a firecracker, even when they use the same amount of gunpowder. - Jed --=====================_21328343==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Jones Beene wrote:

The dynamics of this experiment, despite its unsatisfactory conclusion, beg to be repeated but with adequate controls and protection. As Jed implies, Mizuno is probably doing just that...

I do not think so. Unless this was an ordinary electrochemical explosion, I doubt that Mizuno has the slightest idea how to re-create it. Consider this: he has been doing glow discharge experiments for years, perhaps a thousand times. It only exploded once, and as far as he knows conditions were no different this time than they were in previous experiments. The run was only beginning. The water was still at room temperature. It is hard to imagine anything he might have done in the first few minutes of the experiment that might have triggered anything like a cold fusion reaction. He would have to do another five or 10 years of experiments before it happened again at random. He does not have 10 more years. He does not even have 5 more year before he reaches mandatory retirement.

As for triggering hydrino reactions . . . I am sure he has no clue how to do that. There are no detectors or instruments that would tell him he is stoking up hydrinos, or doing whatever it takes to make a batch of them go off at once. (Actually, as Ed points out, they should all *form* at once, which seems even more problematic.) If this is a hydrino event, he could not possibly re-create it because he would be working in the dark with no instruments, knowledge what techniques that would tell him current hydrino status.

If ozone has anything to do with it he would be in a much better position of course. I expect he knows how to detect and deal with ozone.


Is there any reason to think the SRI incident could have been related to this?

None whatever. It was completely explained by conventional chemistry. The SRI incident did not take  much energy because the steel cell acted as a rocket. The total energy release was 39,700 J. (See ICCF3, p. 144) As I said, a bullet is much more destructive than a firecracker, even when they use the same amount of gunpowder.

- Jed
 --=====================_21328343==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 28 12:53:37 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0SKrCvk010508; Fri, 28 Jan 2005 12:53:13 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0SKr9Kv010473; Fri, 28 Jan 2005 12:53:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 12:53:09 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050128155133.02b09170 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 15:52:38 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Ozone boosting mechanism Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_21982359==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57365 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_21982359==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Point #2 about what Jones Beene said: >The dynamics of this experiment, despite its unsatisfactory conclusion, >beg to be repeated but with adequate controls and protection. As Jed >implies, Mizuno is probably doing just that... On the contrary, he is taking every step he can think of to prevent it from happening again, or if it does happen, to keep the explosion from causing damage. - Jed --=====================_21982359==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Point #2 about what Jones Beene said:

The dynamics of this experiment, despite its unsatisfactory conclusion, beg to be repeated but with adequate controls and protection. As Jed implies, Mizuno is probably doing just that...

On the contrary, he is taking every step he can think of to prevent it from happening again, or if it does happen, to keep the explosion from causing damage.

- Jed
 --=====================_21982359==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 28 13:27:46 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0SLR4bO028296; Fri, 28 Jan 2005 13:27:28 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0SLQvju028173; Fri, 28 Jan 2005 13:26:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 13:26:57 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050128162346.0291ce28 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 16:26:37 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Mizuno thinks reaction began in electrolyte solution Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_24013265==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57366 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_24013265==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I have reread the recent notes that Mizuno sent me in English and Japanese, and I think I misunderstood something he said after untranslated the initial version of the report. I gather he thinks the reaction began underwater, which would explain the glow at the base of the electrode. I think he meant the anode, not the cathode. Here is a revised paragraph. Mizuno has not okayed this yet, but I think this is what he has in mind: The effluent hydrogen and oxygen were mixed in the cell headspace. (Note that the inverted funnel described in Ref. 1 was not in use during this experiment.) There were 2 ~ 3 cc of free hydrogen at the time, although this is an open cell so only minimal amounts of gas remain in the headspace. Oxygen gas and hydrogen gas were also mixed in with the electrolyte solution. It is likely that the platinum mesh anode catalyzed the hydrogen and oxygen to recombine rapidly in the electrolyte, triggering the explosion in the headspace. - Jed --=====================_24013265==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" I have reread the recent notes that Mizuno sent me in English and Japanese, and I think I misunderstood something he said after untranslated the initial version of the report. I gather he thinks the reaction began underwater, which would explain the glow at the base of the electrode. I think he meant the anode, not the cathode. Here is a revised paragraph. Mizuno has not okayed this yet, but I think this is what he has in mind:

The effluent hydrogen and oxygen were mixed in the cell headspace. (Note that the inverted funnel described in Ref. 1 was not in use during this experiment.) There were 2 ~ 3 cc of free hydrogen at the time, although this is an open cell so only minimal amounts of gas remain in the headspace. Oxygen gas and hydrogen gas were also mixed in with the electrolyte solution. It is likely that the platinum mesh anode catalyzed the hydrogen and oxygen to recombine rapidly in the electrolyte, triggering the explosion in the headspace.

- Jed
 --=====================_24013265==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 28 14:45:58 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0SMjmrX008876; Fri, 28 Jan 2005 14:45:48 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0SMjkkj008858; Fri, 28 Jan 2005 14:45:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 14:45:46 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: A question for the electrochemists Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 09:45:30 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <20050128043639.D0D843D9E xprdmailfe6.nwk.excite.com> In-Reply-To: <20050128043639.D0D843D9E xprdmailfe6.nwk.excite.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j0SMjgrX008755 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57367 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Michael Foster's message of Thu, 27 Jan 2005 23:36:39 -0500: Hi Michael, [snip] > Hi Robin, > >I assume you mean potassium carbonate in an aqueous solution. If that is the case, you won't get any potassium metal at all. You need a molten non-aqueous potassium compound in order to do this, such as potassium chloride. Yes, I do mean in an aqueous solution, though I don't mean a permanent layer of potassium. I realise full well that any potassium formed will react almost immediately with the surrounding water. However H+, or perhaps even water molecules will also be reduced at the cathode. What I am looking for is that combination of parameters that results in a maximal "turn over" of potassium ions, as opposed to the other reactions competing for the free electrons supplied by the cathode. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 28 15:20:17 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0SNJsrX022706; Fri, 28 Jan 2005 15:19:55 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0SNJqc1022686; Fri, 28 Jan 2005 15:19:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 15:19:52 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050128231656.00696db8 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 23:16:56 +0000 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Entry to "Phenomena Reports" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57368 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 18:08:52 +0000 >To: "Colin Quinney" >From: Grimer >Subject: Re: Entry to "Phenomena Reports" > >At 08:31 pm 27-01-05 -0500, you wrote: >>Wow. >> >>James Bond movie? No way. Sounds more like something seen in a John >>Hutchison movie. Bill was the microwave oven on during this episode? >>Hutchison used to have a Tesla coil, a microwave, and a Van de Graph >>generator all running all at the same time. You have that equipment there. >>Under those conditions sometimes magic can happen. Stuff would levitate. Did >>stuff disappear with Hutchison? Wouldn't surprise me. Did you have anything >>else running in your lab? Like a VDG generator or a Tesla coil? Interesting >>that at least one careful conservative scientifically minded researcher who >>once studied Hutchison.. once told me that the effect may as well have >>been poltergeist phenomena, there were so many variables and it being so >>weird. >> >>Colin > > >I have just been looking at the John Hutchison web >site and I must say that I find his results in harmony >with the Beta-atmosphere concept. In our case...... > >=================================================== >CLAYTON, N and F.J.GRIMER. The di-phase concept >with particular reference to concrete. Developments >in Concrete Technology, Vol.1, F.D.Lydon, ed, >Applied Science Publishers, England pp.283-318. > >This chapter can be found as page .jpegs in the >"Photo" section of >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Beta-atmosphere_group/ >=================================================== > >.....we were using air pressure, water pressure and >even ball-bearing pressure to simulate the >Beta-atmosphere but Hutchinson would seem to be playing >with a much finer grained pressure level - materon >cluster pressure perhaps? 8-) > >Unfortunately Hutchison's web site doesn't seem >to have been updated since June 2002. Perhaps he >has been levitated to a higher plane. ;-) > >Cheers, > >Grimer > > > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 28 17:45:58 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0T1jdno020437; Fri, 28 Jan 2005 17:45:39 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0T1jbJX020409; Fri, 28 Jan 2005 17:45:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 17:45:37 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <410-22005162914745970 ix.netcom.com> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: aki ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Akira Kawasaki" To: "vortex-l" Subject: FW: WHAT'S NEW Friday, January 28, 2005 Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 17:47:45 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: c4cc7f5f697e8746f66dc3a06d5924d82ec87472133f32e026d23c95339e91a0f83aa984341be17f350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.178.146.160 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57370 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > [Original Message] > From: What's New > To: Akira Kawasaki Date: 1/28/2005 11:40:00 AM Subject: WHAT'S NEW Friday, January 28, 2005 WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 28 Jan 05 Washington, DC 1. VISION: WHERE DOES THE ADMINISTRATION GET ITS SCIENCE ADVICE? On Feb 7, when the President's FY06 Budget Request is released, Sean O'Keefe will announce that no money is allotted for repair of the Hubble Space Telescope. However, money will be provided to drop the greatest telescope ever built into the ocean. Fixing Hubble with astronauts is too dangerous, O'Keefe said. Repairing Hubble with robots is too uncertain, an NRC panel said. It's too expensive anyway, the White House said. On the same day, the White House estimated the budget deficit at $427B. Besides, it wasn't too dangerous for the ISS crew to spend five hours outside yesterday repairing a Russian robot arm. So what's the arm for? It's so astronauts can make repairs without going outside. Hmmm. But why would anyone bother to repair the ISS? It doesn't do anything. Drop the ISS in the ocean, and save Hubble. 2. JIMO: U.S. PLANETARY SCIENTISTS DO IT THE OLD-FASHIONED WAY. It sounded exciting in 2003 when NASA announced that the Jupiter Icy Moons Orbiter mission would be the first nuclear-propelled mission under Project Prometheus. But now it looks like a plan to put them off while NASA focuses on Moon/Mars. Kinky is nice, but if conventional will get to Europa, they'll take it. Europa may be the last hope of finding other life in the solar system. 3. OPINIONS: THIS IS A FREE COUNTRY--OPINIONS ARE ANOTHER MATTER. The Education Department paid commentator Armstrong Williams $240,000 to plug the No Child Left Behind Act. Health and Human Services paid columnist Maggie Gallagher $21,500 to promote the marriage initiative. This is hardly big bucks compared to a guy with a good jump shot, but fans still need to know who's paying. WN gets tons of mail from readers pointing out stories we missed. We use a lot of them but no one ever enclosed a check. 4. CREATIONISM: SHOULD WARNING MESSAGES BE REQUIRED ON BOOKS? Manufactures are required to include warnings on labels. Why not text book publishers? Besides, the stickers Cobb County wanted on biology texts weren't exactly wrong evolution really is "just a theory." http://www.aps.org/WN/WN05/wn011405.cfm Science is open. If someone comes up with a better theory, the textbooks will be rewritten. Although requiring warning labels on medicine bottles is vital, on books they become official doctrine. Several readers suggested stickers for bibles in Cobb County: "This book contains religious stories regarding the origin of living things. The stories are theories, not facts. They are unproven, unprovable and in some cases totally impossible. This material should be approached with an open mind, and a critical eye towards logic and believability." THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND. Opinions are the author's and not necessarily shared by the University of Maryland, but they should be. --- Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.aps.org/WN To subscribe, send a blank e-mail to: From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 28 17:20:45 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0T1KVno010255; Fri, 28 Jan 2005 17:20:31 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0T1KTVS010246; Fri, 28 Jan 2005 17:20:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 17:20:29 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <028701c505a0$b22cbdb0$4b01a8c0 colin5fc9e2583> Reply-To: "Colin Quinney" From: "Colin Quinney" To: Cc: "Grimer" References: <2.2.32.20050128180852.006b24b8 pop.freeserve.net> Subject: Re: Entry to "Phenomena Reports" Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 20:20:19 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0283_01C50576.C94884E0"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2527 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2527 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57369 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com X-Suspected-Spam: billb friends5 Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0283_01C50576.C94884E0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0284_01C50576.C94884E0" ------=_NextPart_001_0284_01C50576.C94884E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Frank, To review background Beta Aether I joined your group.=20 B-A sounds similar to subquantum gas (liquids, particles, etc) proposed = by several authors, but please feel free to educate me, thanks..=20 An author comes to mind being Robert Neil Boyd who talks about radiant = light, electric light,[light having charge] and makes reference to = aether density. ref. below. In reference to Hutchison, I recently came across this link = on the USA Tesla list = where they are presently = discussing the Hutchison Effect. So, I looked in on the Hutchison Effect = FORUM, topic, " Hutchison Effect", and from there to the sub-topic, = MATH MODEL OF HUTCHISON EFFECT , and synchronistically I came across = some interesting reading.. I read Dave Thomson here = , = suggesting a physics model to explain the Hutchison effect. What was = most interestingly was that David said, ("Actually, the photons do not = take on mass. They build up strong charge.") which sounded similar to = Robert Neil Boyd's "charged light".=20 David's formula: Pulse * Cd * Freq=20 ------------------- =3D kg=20 (coul^2/m^3) * G=20 (More on David Thomson) Tesla propulsion: = Book: http://www.16pi2.com/ (More on Robert Neil Boyd) Physics: Antigravity: (More on Hutchison Effect) Research: JH home page: = The following Hutchison Effect forum post is beyond belief, but then = again after Bill Beaty's wandering stir stick, who knows? :=20 QUOTE: Posted: Mon Nov 22, 2004 3:13 pm Post subject: Equipment used - = HDR & Tesla Coil=20 The equipment I used was three Hyper Dimensional Resonators, two Tesla = Coiil, two plasma balls, and one CB Radio to generate RF.=20 The effect was that the copper pipes in my home twisted and broke. I = ended up with a $1600 water bill.=20 I have seen many strange spooky events happen after I turn off the Tesla = Coils. Typically within 15 minutes of me turning them OFF.=20 The greatest amount of RF generated by the Tesla Coils was at 67 = kilocycles as measured by my frequency counter. There was a secondary = peak at 120 kilocycles not 134 kilocycles as expected.=20 Other strange effects include scorch marks, objects levitating, and a = strange smell. Not the ozone smell of the Tesla coil, more like an = ammonia smell.=20 The effect is is sporadic and I have not yet captured it on film. UNQUOTE =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Cheers, Colin ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Grimer" To: "Colin Quinney" Sent: Friday, January 28, 2005 1:08 PM Subject: Re: Entry to "Phenomena Reports" > At 08:31 pm 27-01-05 -0500, you wrote: >>Wow. >> >>James Bond movie? No way. Sounds more like something seen in a John=20 >>Hutchison movie. Bill was the microwave oven on during this episode?=20 >>Hutchison used to have a Tesla coil, a microwave, and a Van de Graph=20 >>generator all running all at the same time. You have that equipment = there.=20 >>Under those conditions sometimes magic can happen. Stuff would = levitate. Did=20 >>stuff disappear with Hutchison? Wouldn't surprise me. Did you have = anything=20 >>else running in your lab? Like a VDG generator or a Tesla coil? = Interesting=20 >>that at least one careful conservative scientifically minded = researcher who=20 >>once studied Hutchison.. once told me that the effect may as well = have=20 >>been poltergeist phenomena, there were so many variables and it being = so=20 >>weird. >> >>Colin >=20 >=20 > I have just been looking at the John Hutchison web=20 > site and I must say that I find his results in harmony=20 > with the Beta-atmosphere concept. In our case...... >=20 > = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D > CLAYTON, N and F.J.GRIMER. The di-phase concept=20 > with particular reference to concrete. Developments=20 > in Concrete Technology, Vol.1, F.D.Lydon, ed,=20 > Applied Science Publishers, England pp.283-318.=20 >=20 > This chapter can be found as page .jpegs in the > "Photo" section of=20 > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Beta-atmosphere_group/ > = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D >=20 > .....we were using air pressure, water pressure and=20 > even ball-bearing pressure to simulate the=20 > Beta-atmosphere but Hutchinson would seem to be playing=20 > with a much finer grained pressure level - materon=20 > cluster pressure perhaps? 8-) >=20 > Unfortunately Hutchison's web site doesn't seem=20 > to have been updated since June 2002. Perhaps he=20 > has been levitated to a higher plane. ;-) >=20 > Cheers, >=20 > Grimer >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > ------=_NextPart_001_0284_01C50576.C94884E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Frank,
 
To review background Beta Aether I = joined=20 your group.
B-A sounds similar to subquantum = gas (liquids,=20 particles, etc) proposed by several authors, but please feel = free to=20 educate me, thanks..
An author comes to mind being Robert = Neil Boyd=20 who talks about radiant light, electric light,[light having charge] = and=20 makes reference to aether density. ref. below.
 
In reference to Hutchison, = I recently came=20 across this link <http://www.hutchisoneffect.com> on the USA Tesla list <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/usa-tesla/> where they are presently discussing the Hutchison = Effect. So, I=20 looked in on the Hutchison Effect FORUM, topic, " Hutchison = Effect", and=20 from there to the sub-topic,  MATH = MODEL OF=20 HUTCHISON EFFECT , and synchronistically I came across some = interesting=20 reading..
 
I read Dave Thomson here <= FONT=20 face=3DArial size=3D2><http://www.hutchisoneffect.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3D162> ,  suggesting a physics model to explain = the=20 Hutchison effect. What was most interestingly was that David said, = ("Actually,=20 the photons do not take on mass. They build up strong = charge.") which=20 sounded similar to Robert Neil Boyd's "charged light". =
 
David's formula:
 
Pulse * Cd * Freq =
------------------- =3D kg=20
(coul^2/m^3) * G
 
(More on David=20 Thomson)
Tesla propulsion: <http://www.tesla-coil-builder.com/Tesla_Propulsion.htm>
 
(More on Robert Neil=20 Boyd)
Physics: <http://www.rialian.com/rnboyd/physics.htm>
Antigravity: <http://www.rialian.com/rnboyd/antigrav.htm>
 
(More on Hutchison=20 Effect)
Research: <http://www.hutchison= effect.com/research.htm>
JH home page: <htt= p://www.jbcr-virtualsolutions.com/heffect/accomplish.html><= /DIV>
 
The following Hutchison Effect forum = post is beyond=20 belief, but then again after Bill Beaty's wandering stir stick, who = knows? :=20
<http:/= /www.hutchisoneffect.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3D79>
QUOTE:
<= IMG=20 title=3DPost height=3D9 alt=3DPost=20 = src=3D"http://www.hutchisoneffect.com/forum/templates/subSilver/images/ic= on_minipost.gif"=20 width=3D12 border=3D0>Posted: Mon Nov 22, 2004 3:13 pm  =20  Post subject: Equipment used - HDR & Tesla=20 Coil
The equipment I = used was three=20 Hyper Dimensional Resonators, two Tesla Coiil, two plasma balls, and one = CB=20 Radio to generate RF.

The effect was that the copper pipes in my = home=20 twisted and broke. I ended up with a $1600 water bill.

I have = seen many=20 strange spooky events happen after I turn off the Tesla Coils. Typically = within=20 15 minutes of me turning them OFF.

The greatest amount of RF = generated=20 by the Tesla Coils was at 67 kilocycles as measured by my frequency = counter.=20 There was a secondary peak at 120 kilocycles not 134 kilocycles as = expected.=20

Other strange effects include scorch marks, objects levitating, = and a=20 strange smell. Not the ozone smell of the Tesla coil, more like an = ammonia=20 smell.

The effect is is sporadic and I have not yet captured it = on=20 film.
UNQUOTE
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
 Cheers,
Colin
----- Original Message -----
From: "Grimer" <f.grimer grimer2.freeserve.co.uk>
To: "Colin Quinney" <crquin rogers.com>
Sent: Friday, January 28, 2005 1:08 = PM
Subject: Re: Entry to "Phenomena=20 Reports"

> At 08:31 pm 27-01-05 -0500, you=20 wrote:
>>Wow.
>>
>>James Bond movie? No way. = Sounds=20 more like something seen in a John
>>Hutchison movie. Bill was = the=20 microwave oven on during this episode?
>>Hutchison used to = have a=20 Tesla coil, a microwave, and a Van de Graph
>>generator all = running=20 all at the same time. You have that equipment there.
>>Under = those=20 conditions sometimes magic can happen. Stuff would levitate. Did=20
>>stuff disappear with Hutchison? Wouldn't surprise me. Did = you have=20 anything
>>else running in your lab? Like a VDG generator or a = Tesla=20 coil? Interesting
>>that at least one careful conservative=20 scientifically minded researcher who
>>once studied=20 Hutchison..   once told me that the effect may as well have=20
>>been poltergeist phenomena, there were so many variables and = it=20 being so
>>weird.
>>
>>Colin
> =
>=20
> I have just been looking at the John Hutchison web
> = site and I=20 must say that I find his results in harmony
> with the = Beta-atmosphere=20 concept. In our case......
>
>=20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D
> CLAYTON, N and=20 F.J.GRIMER. The di-phase concept
> with particular reference to = concrete.=20 Developments
> in Concrete Technology, Vol.1, F.D.Lydon, ed, =
>=20 Applied Science Publishers, England pp.283-318.
>
> This = chapter=20 can be found as page .jpegs in the
> "Photo" section of
> = http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Beta-atmosphere_group/<= BR>>=20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D
>
> .....we=20 were using air pressure, water pressure and
> even ball-bearing = pressure=20 to simulate the
> Beta-atmosphere but Hutchinson would seem to be = playing=20
> with a much finer grained pressure level - materon
> = cluster=20 pressure perhaps?  8-)
>
> Unfortunately Hutchison's = web site=20 doesn't seem
> to have been updated since June 2002. Perhaps he =
>=20 has been levitated to a higher plane. ;-)
>
> = Cheers,
>=20
> Grimer
>
>
>
>
>
>=20
> ------=_NextPart_001_0284_01C50576.C94884E0-- ------=_NextPart_000_0283_01C50576.C94884E0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="icon_minipost.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Location: http://www.hutchisoneffect.com/forum/templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif R0lGODlhDAAJALMJAAAAAP///7i4uPf39/39/fDw8Onp6dzc3PPz8////wAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAACH5BAEAAAkALAAAAAAMAAkAAAQnMCVAqbwShG3x3EPlAURZAuOgDgeKAUght2Nh3IJ7AYfg 56OKSBIBADs= ------=_NextPart_000_0283_01C50576.C94884E0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 28 18:15:24 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0T2FAno001329; Fri, 28 Jan 2005 18:15:11 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0T2F989001314; Fri, 28 Jan 2005 18:15:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 18:15:09 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=eD4OrNzyqceNw7UJqyMOU+ztdctQf2yT2En6bFobvubK3boYgN3O8YzE13YQLsqNjiDXUtt6BEmg29ug4BGJG4GU18KHhsVskZYpwBeI1f5p5y34wXGaTZA58hfvJUxHvHwN6Y7zJO0LC8lLgW9LGKY0E6eLCzyY8WdUOCVe/k8= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 19:15:05 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Entry to "Phenomena Reports" In-Reply-To: <028701c505a0$b22cbdb0$4b01a8c0 colin5fc9e2583> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <2.2.32.20050128180852.006b24b8 pop.freeserve.net> <028701c505a0$b22cbdb0$4b01a8c0 colin5fc9e2583> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57371 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: jeebus bill! et al. well, it MAY have been, and may not. ive had sticks i thought dissapeared before, but were just stuck to the side of the cup. but thats when using a brownish wax cup about the same color as the stick. ive got one. 8 years old (so 88) i had a little luggage lock that i regarded as a good luck charm, always carried it with me, would click down on it repeatedly to relieve stress. walking next to a building in the condo complex i lived in. was in a rarely walked through area behind a huge long pit that all the lawns drained into, so it became a moat when it rained. mental state matched, i was agitated and wishing bloody death on a bully in teh area, clicking the lock. i dropped the lock by accident, and it clunked against teh plastic of a 6 inch across drain plug that we have all over there. i got on my knees to find it, and failed. spent ten minutes looking for it. came back teh next day with a shop magnet, went over the whole area , including in the rocks of the pit several feet away. nada. nothing. fast foward 6 years. im wheeling my bike around, hop the pit and walk it through the grass there. (i liked that spot, it felt like being on an island). i suddenly think of the lock that i lost there 6 years back, and get a little wistfull (still missed that bloody good luck charm) when... i notice something shining... sitting on the plastic cover. one that i KNOW has been taken off to clean pipes before.... sure enough, its my lock. with the same amount of corrosion that had been on it before. not 6 years worth if it had been sitting there. (i know, but it took it 2 years after i found it to become completely lightly rusted.) never lost it again, still have it in a drawer. On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 20:20:19 -0500, Colin Quinney wrote: > Hi Frank, > > To review background Beta Aether I joined your group. > B-A sounds similar to subquantum gas (liquids, particles, etc) proposed by > several authors, but please feel free to educate me, thanks.. > An author comes to mind being Robert Neil Boyd who talks about radiant > light, electric light,[light having charge] and makes reference to aether > density. ref. below. > > In reference to Hutchison, I recently came across this link > on the USA Tesla list > where they are presently > discussing the Hutchison Effect. So, I looked in on the Hutchison Effect > FORUM, topic, " Hutchison Effect", and from there to the sub-topic, MATH > MODEL OF HUTCHISON EFFECT , and synchronistically I came across some > interesting reading.. > > I read Dave Thomson here > , suggesting a > physics model to explain the Hutchison effect. What was most interestingly > was that David said, ("Actually, the photons do not take on mass. They build > up strong charge.") which sounded similar to Robert Neil Boyd's "charged > light". > > David's formula: > > Pulse * Cd * Freq > ------------------- = kg > (coul^2/m^3) * G > > (More on David Thomson) > Tesla propulsion: > > Book: http://www.16pi2.com/http://www.16pi2.com/ > > (More on Robert Neil Boyd) > Physics: > > Antigravity: > > > (More on Hutchison Effect) > Research: > JH home page: > > The following Hutchison Effect forum post is beyond belief, but then again > after Bill Beaty's wandering stir stick, who knows? : > > QUOTE: > Posted: Mon Nov 22, 2004 3:13 pm Post subject: Equipment used - HDR & > Tesla Coil > The equipment I used was three Hyper Dimensional Resonators, two Tesla > Coiil, two plasma balls, and one CB Radio to generate RF. > > The effect was that the copper pipes in my home twisted and broke. I ended > up with a $1600 water bill. > > I have seen many strange spooky events happen after I turn off the Tesla > Coils. Typically within 15 minutes of me turning them OFF. > > The greatest amount of RF generated by the Tesla Coils was at 67 kilocycles > as measured by my frequency counter. There was a secondary peak at 120 > kilocycles not 134 kilocycles as expected. > > Other strange effects include scorch marks, objects levitating, and a > strange smell. Not the ozone smell of the Tesla coil, more like an ammonia > smell. > > The effect is is sporadic and I have not yet captured it on film. > UNQUOTE > ========== > Cheers, > Colin > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Grimer" > > To: "Colin Quinney" > Sent: Friday, January 28, 2005 1:08 PM > Subject: Re: Entry to "Phenomena Reports" > > > At 08:31 pm 27-01-05 -0500, you wrote: > >>Wow. > >> > >>James Bond movie? No way. Sounds more like something seen in a John > >>Hutchison movie. Bill was the microwave oven on during this episode? > >>Hutchison used to have a Tesla coil, a microwave, and a Van de Graph > >>generator all running all at the same time. You have that equipment there. > >>Under those conditions sometimes magic can happen. Stuff would levitate. > Did > >>stuff disappear with Hutchison? Wouldn't surprise me. Did you have > anything > >>else running in your lab? Like a VDG generator or a Tesla coil? > Interesting > >>that at least one careful conservative scientifically minded researcher > who > >>once studied Hutchison.. once told me that the effect may as well have > >>been poltergeist phenomena, there were so many variables and it being so > >>weird. > >> > >>Colin > > > > > > I have just been looking at the John Hutchison web > > site and I must say that I find his results in harmony > > with the Beta-atmosphere concept. In our case...... > > > > =================================================== > > CLAYTON, N and F.J.GRIMER. The di-phase concept > > with particular reference to concrete. Developments > > in Concrete Technology, Vol.1, F.D.Lydon, ed, > > Applied Science Publishers, England pp.283-318. > > > > This chapter can be found as page .jpegs in the > > "Photo" section of > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Beta-atmosphere_group/http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Beta-atmosphere_group/ > > =================================================== > > > > .....we were using air pressure, water pressure and > > even ball-bearing pressure to simulate the > > Beta-atmosphere but Hutchinson would seem to be playing > > with a much finer grained pressure level - materon > > cluster pressure perhaps? 8-) > > > > Unfortunately Hutchison's web site doesn't seem > > to have been updated since June 2002. Perhaps he > > has been levitated to a higher plane. ;-) > > > > Cheers, > > > > Grimer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- Fairy tales are more than true: not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten. -G.K. Chesterton From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 28 19:03:51 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0T33bno027510; Fri, 28 Jan 2005 19:03:38 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0T33ZuD027492; Fri, 28 Jan 2005 19:03:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 19:03:35 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Britz: Not enough gas to cause explosion? Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 14:03:23 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <01cf01c504b1$1bf01ad0$ea49ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> <6.2.0.14.2.20050127165422.02ae4ec0@pop.mindspring.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050128103514.02a8a2f8@pop.mindspring.com> <003b01c50554$b37c80c0$d0bcfea9@jonesb9pacbell> <41FA6AC7.10203@ix.netcom.com> In-Reply-To: <41FA6AC7.10203 ix.netcom.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j0T33Sno027424 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57372 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Edmund Storms's message of Fri, 28 Jan 2005 09:39:35 -0700: Hi, [snip] >I suggest several facts must be kept in mind when proposing the hydrino >explanation. > >1. Energy is only released when hydrinos are formed, not when >accumulated hydrinos are returned to "normal". The presence of preexisting severely shrunken hydrinos is not important because they might be in a position to expand again, but because they might be in a position to shrink further and undergo rapid fusion reactions, which in turn can produce ionising radiation. This in turn can produce O++ ions which will catalyze the production of more hydrinos from any existing hydrogen gas, and also help to further shrink preexisting hydrinos. Because the ionisation energy of O+ is 35 eV, ionising radiation is one of the few ways of producing O++. (An alternative is through charged particles that have been accelerated in a microwave field). > >2. Hydrino production can only be produced rather slowly, only as >rapidly as normal H diffuses to the active site and the resulting >hydrino diffuses away. This assumes that there a limited number of "active sites" on a surface. When O++ in a plasma acts as the catalyst, the number of "sites" greatly expands. Also, as energy is released, and the temperature of the plasma rises, the diffusion rate increases. However the problem arises that much of the energy from hydrino formation will turn up as heat, without ever having produced more O++ catalyst, so the process may by itself, not be self-sustaining. That's where the pre-existing hydrinos and the fusion reactions come in. Each fusion reaction can produce hundred to thousands of O++ ions, so there is a chance that a runaway chain reaction might ensue, at least until either the pre-existing hydrinos are reduced severely in number, or the device blows itself apart. > >3. According to Mills, hydrinos do not react with oxygen to produce >hydrino water. Not a problem, as they can exist on the surface of any solid. In this case, a hydrinohydride ion simply replaces an existing electron in another atom, resulting in a tightly bound "salt" (Mills even has photos of them in little glass bottles). [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 28 19:22:15 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0T3Lvno001808; Fri, 28 Jan 2005 19:22:02 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0T3LvWD001800; Fri, 28 Jan 2005 19:21:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 19:21:57 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 22:20:33 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: Entry to "Phenomena Reports" In-reply-to: <028701c505a0$b22cbdb0$4b01a8c0 colin5fc9e2583> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57373 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Regarding Hutchinson... IMO, he is an artist bridging the gap between an old paradigm and a new paradigm. Harry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 28 19:25:48 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0T3PZno005270; Fri, 28 Jan 2005 19:25:35 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0T3PXkb005246; Fri, 28 Jan 2005 19:25:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 19:25:33 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Ozone boosting mechanism Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 14:25:14 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <022201c50573$1a322900$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> <6.2.0.14.2.20050128152522.02b22d30@pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050128152522.02b22d30 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j0T3PLno004952 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57374 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jed Rothwell's message of Fri, 28 Jan 2005 15:39:37 -0500: Hi, [snip] >As for triggering hydrino reactions . . . I am sure he has no clue how to >do that. Just use the remaining pieces of the device that exploded. The inside walls, and/or the electrodes are probably coated with hydrinohydride salts (if hydrinos are the cause). These salts will still be there, because they are resistant to chemicals. >There are no detectors or instruments that would tell him he is >stoking up hydrinos, or doing whatever it takes to make a batch of them go >off at once. Actually, as Mills has already shown, and Jones has just pointed out, MRI can be used to detect hydrinohydride salts. >(Actually, as Ed points out, they should all *form* at once, >which seems even more problematic.) It isn't problematic if the catalyst comprises atoms and/or ions in a plasma. For that matter, K could also have been the catalyst, once the plasma started vaporizing the surrounding electrolyte, and converting it into even more plasma. >If this is a hydrino event, he could >not possibly re-create it because he would be working in the dark with no >instruments, knowledge what techniques that would tell him current hydrino >status. [snip] Along the same lines as Jones' ozone proposal, is the possibility of prior formation of H2O2. If this started to react with locally produced H at the cathode, then the resulting heat might have caused a rapid release of hydrogen atoms from the cathode metal (where they had been stored in the lattice), and further reactions with dissolved H2O2. The heat from such a reaction would be formidable, and the amount of H available possibly quite a bit more than would have been available in the head space. However this scenario depends on the presence of H in the cathode, which may or may not have been true in this experiment. This scenario is easily replicated by adding concentrated H2O2 to a running electrolysis experiment, where H has already been absorbed, then focusing a laser on the cathode to start the process. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 28 19:35:29 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0T3ZJno008725; Fri, 28 Jan 2005 19:35:19 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0T3ZINa008715; Fri, 28 Jan 2005 19:35:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 19:35:18 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Ozone boosting mechanism Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 14:35:02 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050128155133.02b09170 pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050128155133.02b09170 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j0T3ZBno008650 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57375 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jed Rothwell's message of Fri, 28 Jan 2005 15:52:38 -0500: Hi Jed, Do you happen to know if Mizuno follows this forum, and if he doesn't would you be prepared to forward suggestions made here to him (eventually after translation)? >Point #2 about what Jones Beene said: > >>The dynamics of this experiment, despite its unsatisfactory conclusion, >>beg to be repeated but with adequate controls and protection. As Jed >>implies, Mizuno is probably doing just that... > >On the contrary, he is taking every step he can think of to prevent it from >happening again, or if it does happen, to keep the explosion from causing >damage. > >- Jed Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 28 23:36:57 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0T7afno001891; Fri, 28 Jan 2005 23:36:42 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0T7adXt001868; Fri, 28 Jan 2005 23:36:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 23:36:39 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 01:37:32 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: accident report Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57376 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On reading the excellent comments that Ed Storms posted, I was moved to write the following. When I saw the photo of what I assume was the remains of the bottom of the vessel, I though of a detonation producing a shock wave which was focused on the center of the vessel. How this happened I haven't got a clue. I've seen the video of Yuri Brown putting a spark into the gallon milk jug of Brown's gas, the bottle imploded. IMHO, there is nothing other than a high explosive that would account for the damage to that vessel, ergo, something happened that we don't understand. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 28 23:39:41 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0T7dJno003321; Fri, 28 Jan 2005 23:39:24 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0T7dI8B003312; Fri, 28 Jan 2005 23:39:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 23:39:18 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <00ed01c503ef$109451f0$ea49ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> <20050126235319.47156.qmail web51708.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 01:39:20 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: Accident Report from Mizuno Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57377 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: And, Robin Von Spaandonk replied; >In reply to Terry Blanton's message of Wed, 26 Jan 2005 15:53:19 -0800: >Hi, > >--- Mike Carrell wrote: > >Possibly. In an old cell, hydrinos, or their compounds may have been >accumulating for a long time. You mean in the pores? >In such a situation, a nuclear reaction may result with release of >energetic particles. Such energetic particles can ionise many oxygen >atoms to the 2+ state, resulting in a localized high density of >Mills catalyst, which in turn can rapidly catalyze the shrinkage of >hydrogen atoms, with the energy release noted. Interesting scenario > >An initial nuclear reaction is not necessary, if a cosmic ray acts as trigger. >The effect will produce about 100 - 1000 times more energy than >would normally be produced by combustion of hydrogen in the head >space. Qua explosive yield this seems to be about the right order of >magnitude. As I recall Mills was suggesting 800 times the energy of combustion. >The effect could start under water and spread upward, if it consumed >the local supply of hydrogen From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 29 00:32:20 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0T8Vxno018620; Sat, 29 Jan 2005 00:32:04 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0T8Vwf4018609; Sat, 29 Jan 2005 00:31:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 00:31:58 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 23:40:54 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Accident Report from Mizuno Resent-Message-ID: <0kGZ3B.A.oiE.9n0-BB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57378 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 9:22 AM 1/26/5, Jed Rothwell wrote: >[I will upload an Acrobat version of this report that includes photographs.] > >Accident Report > >Tadahiko Mizuno >Division of Quantum Energy Engineering, >Research group of Nuclear System Engineering >Hokkaido University [snip] >The >cell was placed inside a constant temperature air-cooled incubator (Yamato >1L-6) with the outer door open, and the inner Plexiglas safety door closed. [snip] Please excuse my comments if this has already been discussed. I have been sick lately, and have no web access at the moment. Since the safety door was closed the likely confining compartment of the exploding gas would seem to be the incubator itself. Do you know the dimensions of the incubator? It may be capable of confining enough gas to make such an explosion, i.e. to force open the plexiglass door, and spray the glass outward, unless the Yamato 1L-6 is highly ventillated, which seems unlikely since it is temperature controlled. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 29 01:14:09 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0T9Dsno000604; Sat, 29 Jan 2005 01:13:55 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0T9Doh1000571; Sat, 29 Jan 2005 01:13:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 01:13:50 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050129091056.006bc7d0 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 09:10:56 +0000 To: "Colin Quinney" , vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Entry to "Phenomena Reports" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57379 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Colin, That sounds very interesting. Thanks. I'll look into all that. Cheers Frank At 08:20 pm 28-01-05 -0500, you wrote: >Hi Frank, > >To review background Beta Aether I joined your group. >B-A sounds similar to subquantum gas (liquids, particles, etc) proposed by several authors, but please feel free to educate me, thanks.. >An author comes to mind being Robert Neil Boyd who talks about radiant light, electric light,[light having charge] and makes reference to aether density. ref. below. > >In reference to Hutchison, I recently came across this link on the USA Tesla list where they are presently discussing the Hutchison Effect. So, I looked in on the Hutchison Effect FORUM, topic, " Hutchison Effect", and from there to the sub-topic, MATH MODEL OF HUTCHISON EFFECT , and synchronistically I came across some interesting reading.. > >I read Dave Thomson here , suggesting a physics model to explain the Hutchison effect. What was most interestingly was that David said, ("Actually, the photons do not take on mass. They build up strong charge.") which sounded similar to Robert Neil Boyd's "charged light". > >David's formula: > >Pulse * Cd * Freq >------------------- = kg >(coul^2/m^3) * G > >(More on David Thomson) >Tesla propulsion: >Book: http://www.16pi2.com/ > >(More on Robert Neil Boyd) >Physics: >Antigravity: > >(More on Hutchison Effect) >Research: >JH home page: > >The following Hutchison Effect forum post is beyond belief, but then again after Bill Beaty's wandering stir stick, who knows? : > >QUOTE: > Posted: Mon Nov 22, 2004 3:13 pm Post subject: Equipment used - HDR & Tesla Coil > >The equipment I used was three Hyper Dimensional Resonators, two Tesla Coiil, two plasma balls, and one CB Radio to generate RF. > >The effect was that the copper pipes in my home twisted and broke. I ended up with a $1600 water bill. > >I have seen many strange spooky events happen after I turn off the Tesla Coils. Typically within 15 minutes of me turning them OFF. > >The greatest amount of RF generated by the Tesla Coils was at 67 kilocycles as measured by my frequency counter. There was a secondary peak at 120 kilocycles not 134 kilocycles as expected. > >Other strange effects include scorch marks, objects levitating, and a strange smell. Not the ozone smell of the Tesla coil, more like an ammonia smell. > >The effect is is sporadic and I have not yet captured it on film. >UNQUOTE >========== > Cheers, >Colin >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Grimer" >To: "Colin Quinney" >Sent: Friday, January 28, 2005 1:08 PM >Subject: Re: Entry to "Phenomena Reports" > > >> At 08:31 pm 27-01-05 -0500, you wrote: >>>Wow. >>> >>>James Bond movie? No way. Sounds more like something seen in a John >>>Hutchison movie. Bill was the microwave oven on during this episode? >>>Hutchison used to have a Tesla coil, a microwave, and a Van de Graph >>>generator all running all at the same time. You have that equipment there. >>>Under those conditions sometimes magic can happen. Stuff would levitate. Did >>>stuff disappear with Hutchison? Wouldn't surprise me. Did you have anything >>>else running in your lab? Like a VDG generator or a Tesla coil? Interesting >>>that at least one careful conservative scientifically minded researcher who >>>once studied Hutchison.. once told me that the effect may as well have >>>been poltergeist phenomena, there were so many variables and it being so >>>weird. >>> >>>Colin >> >> >> I have just been looking at the John Hutchison web >> site and I must say that I find his results in harmony >> with the Beta-atmosphere concept. In our case...... >> >> =================================================== >> CLAYTON, N and F.J.GRIMER. The di-phase concept >> with particular reference to concrete. Developments >> in Concrete Technology, Vol.1, F.D.Lydon, ed, >> Applied Science Publishers, England pp.283-318. >> >> This chapter can be found as page .jpegs in the >> "Photo" section of >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Beta-atmosphere_group/ >> =================================================== >> >> .....we were using air pressure, water pressure and >> even ball-bearing pressure to simulate the >> Beta-atmosphere but Hutchinson would seem to be playing >> with a much finer grained pressure level - materon >> cluster pressure perhaps? 8-) >> >> Unfortunately Hutchison's web site doesn't seem >> to have been updated since June 2002. Perhaps he >> has been levitated to a higher plane. ;-) >> >> Cheers, >> >> Grimer >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > > >
Hi Frank,
>
 
>
To review background Beta Aether I joined >your group.
>
B-A sounds similar to subquantum gas (liquids, >particles, etc) proposed by several authors, but please feel free to >educate me, thanks..
>
An author comes to mind being Robert Neil Boyd >who talks about radiant light, electric light,[light having charge] and >makes reference to aether density. ref. below.
>
>
 
>
In reference to Hutchison, I recently came >across this link <face=Arial size=2>http://www.hutchisoneffect.comsize=2>> on the USA Tesla list <href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/usa-tesla/">size=2>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/usa-tesla/size=2>> where they are presently discussing the Hutchison Effect. So, I >looked in on the Hutchison Effect FORUM, topic, " Hutchison Effect", and >from there to the sub-topic,  class=topictitle >href="http://www.hutchisoneffect.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=162">MATH MODEL OF >HUTCHISON EFFECT , and synchronistically I came across some interesting >reading..
>
 
>
I read Dave Thomson here href="http://www.hutchisoneffect.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=162">face=Arial size=2><href="http://www.hutchisoneffect.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=162">size=2>http://www.hutchisoneffect.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=162face=Arial size=2>> ,  suggesting a physics model to explain the >Hutchison effect. What was most interestingly was that David said, ("Actually, >the photons do not take on mass. They build up strong charge.") which >sounded similar to Robert Neil Boyd's "charged light".
>
 
>
David's formula:
>
 
>
Pulse * Cd * Freq
------------------- = style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">kg >
(coul^2/m^3) * G
>
 
>
(More on David >Thomson)
> > >
 
>
(More on Robert Neil >Boyd)
> > >
 
>
(More on Hutchison >Effect)
> > >
 
>
The following Hutchison Effect forum post is beyond >belief, but then again after Bill Beaty's wandering stir stick, who knows? : >
> >
QUOTE:
> >
The equipment I used was three >Hyper Dimensional Resonators, two Tesla Coiil, two plasma balls, and one CB >Radio to generate RF.

The effect was that the copper pipes in my home >twisted and broke. I ended up with a $1600 water bill.

I have seen many >strange spooky events happen after I turn off the Tesla Coils. Typically within >15 minutes of me turning them OFF.

The greatest amount of RF generated >by the Tesla Coils was at 67 kilocycles as measured by my frequency counter. >There was a secondary peak at 120 kilocycles not 134 kilocycles as expected. >

Other strange effects include scorch marks, objects levitating, and a >strange smell. Not the ozone smell of the Tesla coil, more like an ammonia >smell.

The effect is is sporadic and I have not yet captured it on >film.
>
UNQUOTE
>
==========
>
 Cheers,
>
Colin
>
----- Original Message ----- > > >
Sent: Friday, January 28, 2005 1:08 PM
>
Subject: Re: Entry to "Phenomena >Reports"
>

size=2>> At 08:31 pm 27-01-05 -0500, you >wrote:
>>Wow.
>>
>>James Bond movie? No way. Sounds >more like something seen in a John
>>Hutchison movie. Bill was the >microwave oven on during this episode?
>>Hutchison used to have a >Tesla coil, a microwave, and a Van de Graph
>>generator all running >all at the same time. You have that equipment there.
>>Under those >conditions sometimes magic can happen. Stuff would levitate. Did >
>>stuff disappear with Hutchison? Wouldn't surprise me. Did you have >anything
>>else running in your lab? Like a VDG generator or a Tesla >coil? Interesting
>>that at least one careful conservative >scientifically minded researcher who
>>once studied >Hutchison..   once told me that the effect may as well have >
>>been poltergeist phenomena, there were so many variables and it >being so
>>weird.
>>
>>Colin
>
> >
> I have just been looking at the John Hutchison web
> site and I >must say that I find his results in harmony
> with the Beta-atmosphere >concept. In our case......
>
> >===================================================
> CLAYTON, N and >F.J.GRIMER. The di-phase concept
> with particular reference to concrete. >Developments
> in Concrete Technology, Vol.1, F.D.Lydon, ed,
> >Applied Science Publishers, England pp.283-318.
>
> This chapter >can be found as page .jpegs in the
> "Photo" section of
> href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Beta-atmosphere_group/">size=2>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Beta-atmosphere_group/
face=Arial size=2>> >===================================================
>
> .....we >were using air pressure, water pressure and
> even ball-bearing pressure >to simulate the
> Beta-atmosphere but Hutchinson would seem to be playing >
> with a much finer grained pressure level - materon
> cluster >pressure perhaps?  8-)
>
> Unfortunately Hutchison's web site >doesn't seem
> to have been updated since June 2002. Perhaps he
> >has been levitated to a higher plane. ;-)
>
> Cheers,
> >
> Grimer
>
>
>
>
>
> >
> >Content-Type: image/gif; > name="icon_minipost.gif" >Content-Location: http://www.hutchisoneffect.com/forum/templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif > >Attachment Converted: C:\internet\email\attach\icon_minipost.gif > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 29 04:46:23 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0TCjvno002337; Sat, 29 Jan 2005 04:45:57 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0TCjFbN002077; Sat, 29 Jan 2005 04:45:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 04:45:15 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.1.2.0.0.20050129073848.020bba88 pop.theworld.com> X-Sender: mica pop.theworld.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.2.0 Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 07:42:41 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Assistance For Posting Mitchell Swartz's Papers On LENR-CANR.ORG Cc: Mitchell Swartz Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57380 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 06:02 PM 1/27/2005, you wrote: >Dear Dr. Swartz, > >In answer to my private e-mail inquiry about this matter, >Jed Rothwell said that he'd be happy to make your research papers >available on lenr-canr.org, but that he was unable to find the >files on your website, and that his CD drive could not read the >CD-R disk you sent him. Mark: Thank you. Your comment is a naive, although very well-intentioned. First, despite Rothwell's nonsense, the files were handed to Rothwell in my car in front of a witness. The files were also e-mailed and they were received and discussed. The files were also sent by regular mail to Storms and Rothwell. Second, the "files" discussed here are not the papers, but the NAMES of the papers and the names which were removed. They still are if you go to http://www.lenr-canr.org/Collections/ICCF10.htm , entitled " PROCEEDINGS - Tenth International Conference on Cold Fusion (ICCF-10)". Do you think one needs a CD-ROM to do that when you list the titles in your next line? Now give me one reason why someone would do that? even after Dr. Hagelstein who conducted ICCF10 explicitly told Storms and Rothwell to stop. If you want an issue of the current COLD FUSION TIMES, send us an address. Best wishes. ======================================================== >In previous messages, you referred to these two papers: > >Swartz. M., G. Verner, "Excess Heat from Low Electrical Conductivity >Heavy Water Spiral-Wound Pd/D2O/Pt and Pd/D2O-PdCl2/Pt Devices", >ICCF-10 (Camb. MA), Proceedings of ICCF-10, (2003), > >Swartz. M., "Photoinduced Excess Heat from Laser-Irradiated >Electrically-Polarized Palladium Cathodes in D2O", ICCF-10 (Camb. MA), >Proceedings of ICCF-10, (2003). >..... > > Sincerely, > > Mark Bilk > mark cosmicpenguin.com > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 29 04:46:30 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0TCk2no002408; Sat, 29 Jan 2005 04:46:02 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0TCk0QF002364; Sat, 29 Jan 2005 04:46:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 04:46:00 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.1.2.0.0.20050129072659.020b2290 pop.theworld.com> X-Sender: mica pop.theworld.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.2.0 Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 07:37:13 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Physics Today 1/25/05 - Feder In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050128105437.02a8a2f8 pop.mindspring.com> References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050124154117.02ae1a08 pop.mindspring.com> <6.1.2.0.0.20050125072714.00ba7948 pop.theworld.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050125150128.02a7d6b0 pop.mindspring.com> <6.1.2.0.0.20050125194400.020ceb20 pop.theworld.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050126094013.02a9ad78 pop.mindspring.com> <6.1.2.0.0.20050127081136.00ba7978 pop.theworld.com> <41F91A81.4030607 ix.netcom.com> <6.1.2.0.0.20050127120834.02189010 pop.theworld.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050128105437.02a8a2f8 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57381 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:08 AM 1/28/2005, Jed Rothwell continues his patent nonsense, and wrote: >Mitchell Swartz wrote: > > > First, The matter involves the TITLES of the papers delivered at > ICCF-10. > > The "files" discussed here are not the papers, but the NAMES of the papers > > and the names which were removed. > >We put the titles back! They are in the database! Nonsense. The three papers are NOT in the ICCF-10 data base at http://www.lenr-canr.org/Collections/ICCF10.htm which is (inaccurately) entitled " PROCEEDINGS - Tenth International Conference on Cold Fusion (ICCF-10)". Furthermore, any listing of them at all at the censored (and misnamed) site, took more than a year an half to correct. Ergo: To those who use that site: caveat emptor. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 29 04:49:24 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0TCnEno003829; Sat, 29 Jan 2005 04:49:14 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0TCnCgc003807; Sat, 29 Jan 2005 04:49:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 04:49:12 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050129124621.006d71fc pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 12:46:21 +0000 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Entry to "Phenomena Reports" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57382 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 08:20 pm 28-01-05 -0500, Colin Quinney wrote: >>The following Hutchison Effect forum post is beyond belief, > but then again after Bill Beaty's wandering stir stick, who knows? : > > QUOTE: > Posted: Mon Nov 22, 2004 3:13 pm Post subject: > Equipment used - HDR & Tesla Coil > > The equipment I used was three Hyper Dimensional Resonators, > two Tesla Coiil, two plasma balls, and one CB Radio to generate RF. > > The effect was that the copper pipes in my home twisted and broke. > I ended up with a $1600 water bill. > > I have seen many strange spooky events happen after I turn off the > Tesla Coils. Typically within 15 minutes of me turning them OFF. > > The greatest amount of RF generated by the Tesla Coils was at 67 > kilocycles as measured by my frequency counter. There was a secondary > peak at 120 kilocycles not 134 kilocycles as expected. > > Other strange effects include scorch marks, objects levitating, > and a strange smell. Not the ozone smell of the Tesla coil, more > like an ammonia smell. > > The effect is is sporadic and I have not yet captured it on film. I find the above account entirely believable. After all we know that effects such as magnetostriction, etc., can alter the physical dimensions of metal objects so one would expect that playing around with very high magnetic and electric "atmosphere" pressures (for pressures is the easiest concept to use for understanding these phenomena) will have a dramatic effect on materials. One of the most fascinating and persuasive examples of such pressures is that given by coin shrinking. Googling will give plenty of examples but here is a Google cache example which I have found at random. http://tinyurl.com/45ywr One needs to look at Voltage and Charge in the same way as we look at Temperature - or rather the inverse of Temperature (Compreture, say) As Compreture increases, materials, with few exceptions, are squeezed to smaller and smaller dimensions. Cheers, and thanks again, Colin, for those very interesting references which I am in the process of following up. Frank From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 29 05:10:33 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0TDAQno010238; Sat, 29 Jan 2005 05:10:26 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0TDAPwo010228; Sat, 29 Jan 2005 05:10:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 05:10:25 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 00:11:03 +1100 Subject: Re: Accident Report from Mizuno Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) Cc: Dave D To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Dave D In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <3AADF083-71F7-11D9-8114-000A27913A2A incanberra.com.au> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) X-Server: High Performance Mail Server - http://surgemail.com X-Authenticated-User: dave.davies netspeed.com.au Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57383 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I can't speculate on the nature of the explosion but if the photo was taken before the glass was disturbed - ie pieces of the base in place - the explosion was probably quite small. The nature of the cracks in the glass suggest to me that it was in a high state of internal tension. Note the regular cracks. I've seen similar in glass that was under extreme thermal stress. If it was in use for years the stresses may have accumulated. Sorry to be a wet blanket. BTW, thanks for the CF updates and links. I'm doing my annual review of the state of play. I think things have moved ahead significantly with the DOE review and new experimental results. Pity about the Physics Today BS, but what do you expect from that rag. The actual reviewers were as open minded as could be expected given the general climate that they were operating in. Some of them were quite brave really - albeit hiding behind anonymity. Most people find it very hard to go against the mob. It's only compulsive in a few of us. This list gets whackier by the year but it is fun to drop in occasionally. The scene is not the same without Eugene. Very sad. It's back to the grind for me but I will return:-) dave From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 29 05:57:13 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0TDv4no025956; Sat, 29 Jan 2005 05:57:05 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0TDv2D0025944; Sat, 29 Jan 2005 05:57:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 05:57:02 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: Message-ID: <00f601c5060a$61edc820$186f53d8 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <01cf01c504b1$1bf01ad0$ea49ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> <6.2.0.14.2.20050127165422.02ae4ec0@pop.mindspring.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050128103514.02a8a2f8@pop.mindspring.com> <003b01c50554$b37c80c0$d0bcfea9@jonesb9pacbell> <41FA6AC7.10203@ix.netcom.com> Subject: Re: Britz: Not enough gas to cause explosion? Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 08:56:22 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57384 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Ed Storms wrote: > I suggest several facts must be kept in mind when proposing the hydrino > explanation. > > 1. Energy is only released when hydrinos are formed, not when > accumulated hydrinos are returned to "normal". Correct. > > 2. Hydrino production can only be produced rather slowly, only as > rapidly as normal H diffuses to the active site and the resulting > hydrino diffuses away. No. Hydrino production can proceed at any speed, including instantly. There is one essential condition, the proximity of an H atom (not H2) and a catalyst. Relevant catalysts in the Mizuno case are 2K+ and O++. My comment was that these can be produced in a plasma hydrolysis cell. The reaction rates depend on many complex factors which are not well controlled, even in Mills' experiments. My conjecture was that electrolysis liberates both K+ and H in the proximity of the cathode, which is supported by Mills' early experiments with Thermacore and other later experiments. The 2K+/H reaction is a three-body one. The probability is enhanced by the high density in the liquid/plasma interface, but so are competing reactions -- this is a problem with the Mills cells. O++ can be produced in a plasma -- some mills experiments start with water vaporizing at low pressure and then being ionized by a microwave field. I don't know of any reason why O++ can't be produced in a hard-driven electrolytic cell. I have no clue about the dynamics here. If it could be reproduced at will, it would be a great leap forward toward solving the world's energy problems. One is reminded of other effects, such as attributed to Stanley Meyer. Mills has shown the presence of these reactions; putting them to work is something else. It's as daunting as making reliable CF cathodes. > > 3. According to Mills, hydrinos do not react with oxygen to produce > hydrino water. Hydrinos can form hydrides, which can form chemical compounds. I don't recall any comment about water specifically; it would not be "water". O++ is a BLP catalyst, and one can conjecture that both H and O++ will exist in the plasma in the Mizuno and Cirilli cells. > > These facts would seem to make the hydrino explanation unlikely. 2 out of 3. It is indeed "unlikely" but the ingredients are there. > > Nevertheless, I agree that too much energy seems to have been released > to be accounted for by a "normal" H2+O2 reaction. Remember F&P? Also unlikely. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 29 08:52:12 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0TGq0no027333; Sat, 29 Jan 2005 08:52:00 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0TGplmD027278; Sat, 29 Jan 2005 08:51:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 08:51:47 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <41FBBF83.6010003 ix.netcom.com> Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 09:53:23 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Britz: Not enough gas to cause explosion? References: <01cf01c504b1$1bf01ad0$ea49ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> <6.2.0.14.2.20050127165422.02ae4ec0@pop.mindspring.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050128103514.02a8a2f8@pop.mindspring.com> <003b01c50554$b37c80c0$d0bcfea9@jonesb9pacbell> <41FA6AC7.10203@ix.netcom.com> <00f601c5060a$61edc820$186f53d8@MIKEBY3NR533HT> In-Reply-To: <00f601c5060a$61edc820$186f53d8 MIKEBY3NR533HT> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57385 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Mike Carrell wrote: > Ed Storms wrote: > > >>I suggest several facts must be kept in mind when proposing the hydrino >>explanation. >> >>1. Energy is only released when hydrinos are formed, not when >>accumulated hydrinos are returned to "normal". > > > Correct. > >>2. Hydrino production can only be produced rather slowly, only as >>rapidly as normal H diffuses to the active site and the resulting >>hydrino diffuses away. > > > No. Hydrino production can proceed at any speed, including instantly. I don't understand how "instantly" is possible. Two entities must get together. This takes time. Once energy is released from this collision, the local process stops. If additional energy is to be released, two more entities must find each other. This is not like explosive decomposition where all of the ingredients are already together. Even in a natural gas explosion, which would be similar to the H + O++ condition, a near stoichiometric mixture is required to have significant shockwave production. Otherwise, one justs get a moving flame. Also, extra volume is not produced in the hydrino reaction so that the shock wave can not grow. There > is one essential condition, the proximity of an H atom (not H2) and a > catalyst. Relevant catalysts in the Mizuno case are 2K+ and O++. My comment > was that these can be produced in a plasma hydrolysis cell. The reaction > rates depend on many complex factors which are not well controlled, even in > Mills' experiments. My conjecture was that electrolysis liberates both K+ > and H in the proximity of the cathode, which is supported by Mills' early > experiments with Thermacore and other later experiments. The 2K+/H reaction > is a three-body one. The probability is enhanced by the high density in the > liquid/plasma interface, but so are competing reactions -- this is a problem > with the Mills cells. O++ can be produced in a plasma -- some mills > experiments start with water vaporizing at low pressure and then being > ionized by a microwave field. I don't know of any reason why O++ can't be > produced in a hard-driven electrolytic cell. Let's assume that K+ and/or O++ are produced. The reaction with H to produce H* can proceed no faster than the rate of K+ or O++ formation. Both of these formation rates have to be slow and the products will not accumulate to any great extent because they are so unstable. This might allow extra energy to be produced while electrolysis was ongoing, but I do not understand how an explosion can result. > > I have no clue about the dynamics here. If it could be reproduced at will, > it would be a great leap forward toward solving the world's energy problems. > One is reminded of other effects, such as attributed to Stanley Meyer. Mills > has shown the presence of these reactions; putting them to work is something > else. It's as daunting as making reliable CF cathodes. > >>3. According to Mills, hydrinos do not react with oxygen to produce >>hydrino water. > > > Hydrinos can form hydrides, which can form chemical compounds. I don't > recall any comment about water specifically; it would not be "water". O++ is > a BLP catalyst, and one can conjecture that both H and O++ will exist in the > plasma in the Mizuno and Cirilli cells. If hydrides form, the issue is how does an electron in a special, unique orbit associated with H interact with normal electrons in the combining atom? Such interactions provide the required energy for compound formation. Without this energy, the "hydrides" become physical mixtures. This might be possible in solids, but forming water requires a chemical bond. Consequently, Mills ruled out this possibility. > >>These facts would seem to make the hydrino explanation unlikely. > > > 2 out of 3. It is indeed "unlikely" but the ingredients are there. > >>Nevertheless, I agree that too much energy seems to have been released >>to be accounted for by a "normal" H2+O2 reaction. > > > Remember F&P? Also unlikely. Yes, we seem to be treated to "unlikely" events every couple of years. This is worse than cold fusion. Regards, Ed > > Mike Carrell > > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 29 09:28:57 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0THSlno009297; Sat, 29 Jan 2005 09:28:47 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0THSiGO009272; Sat, 29 Jan 2005 09:28:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 09:28:44 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: Message-ID: <010a01c50627$f4319af0$186f53d8 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <01cf01c504b1$1bf01ad0$ea49ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> <6.2.0.14.2.20050127165422.02ae4ec0@pop.mindspring.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050128103514.02a8a2f8@pop.mindspring.com> <003b01c50554$b37c80c0$d0bcfea9@jonesb9pacbell> <41FA6AC7.10203@ix.netcom.com> <00f601c5060a$61edc820$186f53d8@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <41FBBF83.6010003@ix.netcom.com> Subject: Re: Britz: Not enough gas to cause explosion? Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 12:28:19 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57386 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: ED Storms wrote: > > Mike Carrell wrote: > > > Ed Storms wrote: > >>2. Hydrino production can only be produced rather slowly, only as > >>rapidly as normal H diffuses to the active site and the resulting > >>hydrino diffuses away. > > > > > > No. Hydrino production can proceed at any speed, including instantly. > > I don't understand how "instantly" is possible. Two entities must get > together. This takes time. Once energy is released from this collision, > the local process stops. If additional energy is to be released, two > more entities must find each other. This is not like explosive > decomposition where all of the ingredients are already together. Even in > a natural gas explosion, which would be similar to the H + O++ > condition, a near stoichiometric mixture is required to have significant > shockwave production. Otherwise, one justs get a moving flame. Also, > extra volume is not produced in the hydrino reaction so that the shock > wave can not grow. What I meant was that any particular rection event is instant. Ed is correct that the formation of reaction events may not be instant and he is correct. My conjecture included the possibility that a singular event is very energetic and may initiate dissociation in nearby water. There is possibility for a chain reaction, as the BLP event releases intense UV energy which may couple into other molecules. Another catalyst is K+++, which is a two body reaction with H. There is evidence from Mills' gas phase experiments that reaction rates are complex functions of process parameters. I doubt that Mills has explored that parameter space of plasma electrolysis. It's just something to keep in mind while exploring these phenomena. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 29 09:52:36 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0THqJno018830; Sat, 29 Jan 2005 09:52:19 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0THqFGo018781; Sat, 29 Jan 2005 09:52:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 09:52:15 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=j3b3DCkFfvV1c3GGP1cppI+pWbBOyt9N95v1bg/7NnH7+Z3Y4Py2Q5yTkh9XrStY5QHt3iy1+tdBtWv/5SeBd0pvg6Vw9C/Zx5HWSqH4DfrZM+2BxqW4eEWEU7fCTw7T2csPmw/yCElh94tHiKgI1r644yrMu27aKLv8ebS+EAE= ; Message-ID: <20050129175205.86799.qmail web51701.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 09:52:05 -0800 (PST) From: Terry Blanton Subject: Vortex Web Site To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57387 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: If this dude isn't a subscriber here, he should be: http://www.vortexpluswater.com/free_thinking_and_free_energy.htm __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 29 09:57:15 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0THumno020865; Sat, 29 Jan 2005 09:56:52 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0THujPe020832; Sat, 29 Jan 2005 09:56:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 09:56:45 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=0CIPNM8BPtBwDB3nW5rXhiUsqI9W/rSoig3X1oHvdxIFglzx0phDEyQQMa39KBluacRYWbkN2pQ2YIDYj5E5q+2eGgtaAvBuFCH1//kz6Bi3h6JaUim0kRQ7RGGcZVt176iDXh210kUrJn6rRK4rhFY7uqEenFJDtVD1SJH0gag= ; Message-ID: <20050129175637.37370.qmail web51702.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 09:56:37 -0800 (PST) From: Terry Blanton Subject: UFO Propulsion To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57388 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Different from Fred's flying fluorescent: http://homepage.ntlworld.com/ufophysics/ufoplasmaengine.htm __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 29 10:05:06 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0TI4nno025553; Sat, 29 Jan 2005 10:04:49 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0TI4lTP025540; Sat, 29 Jan 2005 10:04:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 10:04:47 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=DG7KWDRGU/kWVwY5uUZ0JQWo/k2p8kPQxF+69m8FzfXd7U/CjdWi8Mr/apdSFdK6; Message-ID: <410-22005162917429310 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Electron "Shotgun" Electrogravity Field? Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 11:04:29 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940c517f5b04a0508210bd6287c95b70654350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.117.215 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57389 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Fundamental Tenets of Physics: 1, A moving Bunch of Charges creates a Bunch of Magnetic Field/s. 2, A Time-Varying Bunch of Magnetic Field/s creates a Bunch of Electric Field/s.. Hence, a pulsed high current (6 to 27.2 volts DC) diode should create a Bunch of Electrons with Drift Velocities of 1.45 to 3.1 million meters per second. I wonder if the Tungar Charger had a weight change while in operation. :-) Note that you can get 12 or 24 Amperes worth of electrons that drift at a velocity from 1.5 million to possibly 3.0 million meters per second (in spurts) shotgun effect. :-) Produced for 6 volt batteries only? G.E. Tungar Rectifier ( I have one of these somewhere). & Westinghouse Rectigon Rectifiers . Fred http://www.widescreenmuseum.com/sound/rca05-05.htm "Referring to Figure 43, it will be noticed that an alternating current will flow in the primary of the transformer when the line switch is closed. A voltage will be generated in the secondary winding by transformer action. The secondary winding is tapped a few turns from each end to provide a voltage for lighting the filaments of the Tungar bulbs. These filaments are lighted in the same manner as an ordinary electric light except that it uses a very low voltage. (Two and one-half volts are used for lighting the Tungar filament.) The purpose of lighting the filament is to cause it to emit a large number of electrons. The secondary of the transformer is also tapped at its mid-point, and a connection is made from this tap to the positive side of the storage battery being charged. The plates of the two Tungar bulbs are wired together, and are connected, through the ammeter, to the negative side of the storage battery" ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

Fundamental Tenets of Physics:
 
1, A moving Bunch of Charges creates a Bunch of Magnetic Field/s.
 
2, A Time-Varying Bunch of Magnetic Field/s creates a Bunch of Electric Field/s..
 
Hence, a pulsed high current (6 to 27.2 volts DC) diode should create a Bunch of Electrons
with Drift Velocities of 1.45  to  3.1 million meters per second.
 
I wonder if the Tungar Charger had a weight change while in operation.      :-)
 
Note that you can get 12 or 24  Amperes worth of electrons that drift at a velocity from
1.5 million to possibly 3.0 million meters per second (in spurts) shotgun effect.   :-)
Produced for 6 volt batteries only?
 
G.E. Tungar Rectifier  ( I have one of these somewhere).
&
Westinghouse Rectigon   Rectifiers .
 
Fred
 
 
 
"Referring to Figure 43, it will be noticed that an alternating current will flow in the primary of the transformer when the line switch is closed. A voltage will be generated in the secondary winding by transformer action. The secondary winding is tapped a few turns from each end to provide a voltage for lighting the filaments of the Tungar bulbs. These filaments are lighted in the same manner as an ordinary electric light except that it uses a very low voltage. (Two and one-half volts are used for lighting the Tungar filament.) The purpose of lighting the filament is to cause it to emit a large number of electrons. The secondary of the transformer is also tapped at its mid-point, and a connection is made from this tap to the positive side of the storage battery being charged. The plates of the two Tungar bulbs are wired together, and are connected, through the ammeter, to the negative side of the storage battery"
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 29 10:06:56 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0TI6bno026265; Sat, 29 Jan 2005 10:06:38 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0TI6ZjL026225; Sat, 29 Jan 2005 10:06:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 10:06:35 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <036401c5062c$88254a00$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <20050129175205.86799.qmail web51701.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Vortex Web Site Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 10:01:17 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57390 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terry Blanton" > If this dude isn't a subscriber here, he should be: > http://www.vortexpluswater.com/free_thinking_and_free_energy.htm You mean because of pervasive over-optimism, massive use of hyperbole, obvious disregard for the "mainstream" of science, and occasional factual inaccuracy ? ... not that there's anything wrong with that... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 29 10:28:19 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0TIRwno003203; Sat, 29 Jan 2005 10:27:58 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0TIRuY7003178; Sat, 29 Jan 2005 10:27:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 10:27:56 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=oHtAAXyitw2CBMC/qnMJUK29MDeS8mEi6dlt6jN7e+ZFMnyfwSisJCAZ3CYHMhYuDM0h+ZRoR3RnUH3HfwGma7eqzXMEQ+jLP65Fs05HwmzWd+Qobw+65MJ/w3onP5SglRoP9QfqxkWXelQzt5wnEqsWpmVr/4epU6gSYzG5amw= ; Message-ID: <20050129182749.1119.qmail web51706.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 10:27:49 -0800 (PST) From: Terry Blanton Subject: Re: Vortex Web Site To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <036401c5062c$88254a00$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57391 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- Jones Beene wrote: > ... not that there's anything wrong with that... Ah-hah! 'Fess up, Jonesie. It's yours, innit? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 29 10:52:03 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0TIpkno014642; Sat, 29 Jan 2005 10:51:50 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0TIpjjF014631; Sat, 29 Jan 2005 10:51:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 10:51:45 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: "Vortex" , Subject: RE: Electron "Shotgun" Electrogravity Field? Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 13:52:22 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <410-22005162917429310 earthlink.net> Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57392 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hey Fred. Although it will surely be the case that you will generate the E field in question ( at least the time changing part ) what I fail to see is why this should relate to gravity. It's the weak point of Hoopers argument; he does nothing other than assert the connection. Observing that ordinary E field shielding techniques don't work neglects the nature of the source of the field; that kind of evidence won't even get you arrested much less convicted (grin). You mentioned in an earlier post null results by Marc G. Millis from you suggested experiment. Was the attempt to measure E field, or just weight change? I'm a lot more interested in the former than the latter. K. -----Original Message----- From: Frederick Sparber [mailto:fjsparber earthlink.net] Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2005 12:04 PM To: vortex-l Subject: Re: Electron "Shotgun" Electrogravity Field? Fundamental Tenets of Physics: 1, A moving Bunch of Charges creates a Bunch of Magnetic Field/s. 2, A Time-Varying Bunch of Magnetic Field/s creates a Bunch of Electric Field/s.. Hence, a pulsed high current (6 to 27.2 volts DC) diode should create a Bunch of Electrons with Drift Velocities of 1.45 to 3.1 million meters per second. I wonder if the Tungar Charger had a weight change while in operation. :-) Note that you can get 12 or 24 Amperes worth of electrons that drift at a velocity from 1.5 million to possibly 3.0 million meters per second (in spurts) shotgun effect. :-) Produced for 6 volt batteries only? G.E. Tungar Rectifier ( I have one of these somewhere). & Westinghouse Rectigon Rectifiers . Fred http://www.widescreenmuseum.com/sound/rca05-05.htm "Referring to Figure 43, it will be noticed that an alternating current will flow in the primary of the transformer when the line switch is closed. A voltage will be generated in the secondary winding by transformer action. The secondary winding is tapped a few turns from each end to provide a voltage for lighting the filaments of the Tungar bulbs. These filaments are lighted in the same manner as an ordinary electric light except that it uses a very low voltage. (Two and one-half volts are used for lighting the Tungar filament.) The purpose of lighting the filament is to cause it to emit a large number of electrons. The secondary of the transformer is also tapped at its mid-point, and a connection is made from this tap to the positive side of the storage battery being charged. The plates of the two Tungar bulbs are wired together, and are connected, through the ammeter, to the negative side of the storage battery" From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 29 12:50:45 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0TKoUno007402; Sat, 29 Jan 2005 12:50:31 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0TKoSJ4007384; Sat, 29 Jan 2005 12:50:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 12:50:28 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Britz: Not enough gas to cause explosion? Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 07:50:13 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <51tnv05j0e16dirj78n4cohh2l3t541u9i 4ax.com> References: <01cf01c504b1$1bf01ad0$ea49ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> <6.2.0.14.2.20050127165422.02ae4ec0@pop.mindspring.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050128103514.02a8a2f8@pop.mindspring.com> <003b01c50554$b37c80c0$d0bcfea9@jonesb9pacbell> <41FA6AC7.10203@ix.netcom.com> <00f601c5060a$61edc820$186f53d8@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <41FBBF83.6010003@ix.netcom.com> <010a01c50627$f4319af0$186f53d8@MIKEBY3NR533HT> In-Reply-To: <010a01c50627$f4319af0$186f53d8 MIKEBY3NR533HT> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j0TKoJno007295 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57393 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Mike Carrell's message of Sat, 29 Jan 2005 12:28:19 -0500: Hi, [snip] >> I don't understand how "instantly" is possible. Two entities must get >> together. This takes time. Once energy is released from this collision, >> the local process stops. If additional energy is to be released, two >> more entities must find each other. This is not like explosive >> decomposition where all of the ingredients are already together. Even in >> a natural gas explosion, which would be similar to the H + O++ >> condition, a near stoichiometric mixture is required to have significant >> shockwave production. Otherwise, one justs get a moving flame. Also, >> extra volume is not produced in the hydrino reaction so that the shock >> wave can not grow. > >What I meant was that any particular rection event is instant. Ed is correct >that the formation of reaction events may not be instant and he is correct. >My conjecture included the possibility that a singular event is very >energetic and may initiate dissociation in nearby water. There is >possibility for a chain reaction, as the BLP event releases intense UV >energy which may couple into other molecules. True, but actual experiments show that this is insufficient. Otherwise some hydrino forming event in an aqueous environment (including the ocean), would result in a chain reaction. The oceans still exist. IOW The formation of O++ in the oceans during hydrino creation events doesn't lead to a chain reaction. Clearly the losses out weigh the gains. This may be different in a potassium rich environment, though 0.2 M is clearly also not enough, or the cell would have exploded much earlier. It is also why I suggested that an adequate supply of pre-existing severely shrunken hydrinos which are candidates for fusion, may be a necessary prerequisite to a chain reaction. >Another catalyst is K+++, which is a two body reaction with H. I believe you are referring to the reaction: K + H -> H* + K+++ however in this case K (not K+++) is the catalyst. K is readily formed in a plasma, where free electrons are ubiquitous, and easily captured by K+. [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 29 12:54:35 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0TKsKno008763; Sat, 29 Jan 2005 12:54:20 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0TKsJVY008748; Sat, 29 Jan 2005 12:54:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 12:54:19 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <007001c50645$12a15440$6400a8c0 VINCE> From: "Vince Cockeram" To: References: <01cf01c504b1$1bf01ad0$ea49ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> <6.2.0.14.2.20050127165422.02ae4ec0@pop.mindspring.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050128103514.02a8a2f8@pop.mindspring.com> <003b01c50554$b37c80c0$d0bcfea9@jonesb9pacbell> <41FA6AC7.10203@ix.netcom.com> <00f601c5060a$61edc820$186f53d8@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <41FBBF83.6010003@ix.netcom.com> <010a01c50627$f4319af0$186f53d8@MIKEBY3NR533HT> Subject: Re: Britz: Not enough gas to cause explosion? Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 12:56:58 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57394 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Carrell" Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2005 9:28 AM Subject: Re: Britz: Not enough gas to cause explosion? <There is evidence from Mills' gas phase experiments that reaction rates are >complex functions of process parameters. > I doubt that Mills has explored that parameter space of plasma > electrolysis. > > It's just something to keep in mind while exploring these phenomena. > > Mike Carrell Indeed! When I was running a glow discharge in H2 + K, I had an 'event' that I can not explain. I had run this experiment probably a hundred times and had never seen what occurred. A run on March 18, 2000 at a 30 watt tube current was proceeding steady and normal when suddenly the wattage dropped to ~5 watts input and the temperature increased by over 400 C. in the next few minutes. Without going back and searching my lab notes I recall the voltage remained at about 300 dc and the current dropped way down. I guess this indicates that the tube impedance suddenly increased, but as to why, I don't have a clue. And try as I might over the next year or so I was never able to replicate. Regards, Vince Cockeram Las Vegas From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 29 13:50:03 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0TLnono002412; Sat, 29 Jan 2005 13:49:51 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0TLnm63002396; Sat, 29 Jan 2005 13:49:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 13:49:48 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <03a701c5064b$b84b8cc0$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <20050129182749.1119.qmail web51706.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Vortex Web Site Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 13:44:32 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57395 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Terry Blanton writes, > > ... not that there's anything wrong with that... > > Ah-hah! 'Fess up, Jonesie. It's yours, innit? Nah... You don't really think I could write something like, "There is no hope for this world with academic egghead physics, which amounts to intellectual masturbation, self gratification, and peer ego stroking.... Only endless wars, pollution, environmental destruction and great expense for energy, which could be produced practically without cost!" Pretty extreme, I'd say. After all, there is always a practical cost, and what about ... "Religious hypocrites, like Bush, Rice and Ashcroft have hijacked our country. They claim they own the values and morality of our country. These fools are an abomination to the memory of Paine, who... created a Republic, which protected the rights of each and every individual. A democracy protects only the rights of the members of the dominant mob." [Give me a break, what did Condie do wrong... except maybe tow-the-company-line a little too intelligently for her critics (and get her 'do' at Donald Trump's hair-dresser)? ...and, just out of curiosity, why leave out the mastermind of the whole thing ABC axis-of-evil thing, anyway?] "The dominant mob right now is a lot of weirdo religious dopes, who believe in fairytale mythologies as if they were real historical truths. They support the president because he claims he has been "born again"... etc, etc, ad nauseum. Whew... way too extreme for this "born again" (can anyone ever reach noetic maturity without the equivalent experience ?), testifying to the fact that Buddha, Allah, Torah and Jesus can get along just fine without either Dem/wits or Repugs running the show... At least cynics like myself will try to give equal-opportunity criticism to both sides of every political issue, and I heard no mention of specially-flavored cigars, etc... .... Plus, there are not nearly enough spelling errors for me to have been involved. Not to mention, all former mythologies which pass the "test of time" ARE historical truths, but do we really want to get into epistemology today ... Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 29 14:12:27 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0TMCAno010326; Sat, 29 Jan 2005 14:12:11 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0TMC7fc010303; Sat, 29 Jan 2005 14:12:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 14:12:07 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <33280500.1107036720872.JavaMail.root wamui10.slb.atl.earthlink.net> Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 17:12:00 -0500 (GMT-05:00) From: Jed Rothwell Reply-To: Jed Rothwell To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Physics Today 1/25/05 - Feder Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Earthlink Zoo Mail 1.0 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57396 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell Swartz wrote: >>We put the titles back! They are in the database! > > Nonsense. The three papers are NOT in the ICCF-10 data base at > http://www.lenr-canr.org/Collections/ICCF10.htm > which is (inaccurately) entitled " That list only includes papers that we have on file at LENR-CANR.org. Each paper in the list is linked to the copy in the library. There are 4 or 5 others that we know exist but we do not list, because the authors did not give us copies. For example, Hagelstein told me he wrote a paper but he never got around to giving me a copy, so I deleted his paper from that list. You -- Mitch -- never gave us papers, so after a while I assumed you never wrote any, and I deleted your papers from this list and from the master list. When you informed me that the papers do exist, I put them back in the master list. If you give me copies I will put them back in this list, too. Originally, this list included every paper that I heard about, including some duplicate entries. I cleaned it up months after ICCF10. In the ICCF9 special collection (http://www.lenr-canr.org/Collections/ICCF09.htm) there are about a dozen papers in the master list but not in the ICCF9 list, because the authors never gave me permission to upload them. Swartz is one of the authors who refused permission (so far, anyway). In the DoE special collection we have ony ~30 out of 130 papers that Hagelstein et al. provided to the DoE. That shows how shallow our collection really is, and how much more there is to read about CF. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 29 14:26:54 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0TMQcno017953; Sat, 29 Jan 2005 14:26:38 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0TMQZSm017928; Sat, 29 Jan 2005 14:26:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 14:26:35 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Britz: Not enough gas to cause explosion? Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 09:26:01 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <01cf01c504b1$1bf01ad0$ea49ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> <6.2.0.14.2.20050127165422.02ae4ec0@pop.mindspring.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050128103514.02a8a2f8@pop.mindspring.com> <003b01c50554$b37c80c0$d0bcfea9@jonesb9pacbell> <41FA6AC7.10203@ix.netcom.com> <00f601c5060a$61edc820$186f53d8@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <41FBBF83.6010003@ix.netcom.com> In-Reply-To: <41FBBF83.6010003 ix.netcom.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j0TMQOno017562 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57397 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Edmund Storms's message of Sat, 29 Jan 2005 09:53:23 -0700: Hi, [snip] >I don't understand how "instantly" is possible. Two entities must get >together. This takes time. Of course it does, however that time is very short on human scales, provided that the density of catalyst and fuel particles is high. Even in a normal gas at room temperature, each molecule undergoes about 500 million collisions every second. Even if only 1 in a hundred thousand results in a shrinkage reaction, that still means that the average shrinkage reaction only takes a fraction of a millisecond. In short, when a chain reaction occurs, it could easily all be over in less than a millisecond. IMO that qualifies as "instantly". >Once energy is released from this collision, >the local process stops. If additional energy is to be released, two >more entities must find each other. True, but the reactions don't wait on one another. I.e. the reactions are not all consecutive, many of them happen in parallel. In fact, in a chain reaction scenario, the number of parallel reactions is constantly increasing. >This is not like explosive >decomposition where all of the ingredients are already together. Actually it is. It is akin to the chain reaction which takes place in a fission bomb, except that neutron production rate is replaced by catalyst ion production rate. Though in this case "together" means in the same container, rather than in the same molecule. >Even in >a natural gas explosion, which would be similar to the H + O++ >condition, a near stoichiometric mixture is required to have significant >shockwave production. Otherwise, one justs get a moving flame. This may explain why there are so few hydrino explosions. The conditions need to meet strict minimum requirements. A chain reaction using O++ can occur when the rate of formation of both catalyst and H atoms exceeds the consumption rate. O++ is formed through collisions with energetic particles (or UV photons or gamma rays). O++ can be formed when a hydrino of at least level 3 is formed, however most level 3 reactions will not result in O++ formation, because the energy will end up elsewhere. Consequently either reactions of on average much higher level must take place, or fusion reactions must take place. The latter lifts the average O++ production rate, because each fusion reaction can produce hundreds to thousands of O++ ions, while it may only take one O++ ion to finally trigger a fusion reaction, among a population of previously existing severely shrunken hydrinos. >Also, >extra volume is not produced in the hydrino reaction so that the shock >wave can not grow. Extra volume is produced in hydrino reactions, because plasma growth results in the production of free electrons, each of which counts as a separate particle. Hence the particle count is commensurate with the average ionisation level. A hot plasma formed from an electrolyte (which contains many multi-electron atoms), could therefore easily result in a doubling of the number of particles per reaction, and possibly more, as the temperature increases. Not to mention normal thermal expansion. [snip] MC: >> ionized by a microwave field. I don't know of any reason why O++ can't be >> produced in a hard-driven electrolytic cell. Only indirectly, by either UV photons resulting from hydrino formation, energetic hydrinos, or ionising radiation. Interestingly, the explosion in Mizuno's cell happened when the voltage was increased to 20 V. This is high enough to produce O+ (at the anode), providing a supply of ions ready to be ionised to O++ by other means. > >Let's assume that K+ and/or O++ are produced. The reaction with H to >produce H* can proceed no faster than the rate of K+ or O++ formation. K+ doesn't need to be produced, it's already in the electrolyte in large quantities. >Both of these formation rates have to be slow and the products will not >accumulate to any great extent because they are so unstable. This might >allow extra energy to be produced while electrolysis was ongoing, but I >do not understand how an explosion can result. Despite Mills' statements, I don't believe that K+ is an effective catalyst, because it requires a 3 body reaction. K (atom) on the other hand is an effective catalyst, because only a two body reaction is required. In an electrolytic cell, both K atoms and H atoms are constantly being formed concurrently at the cathode, and hence are frequently in close proximity to one another. Nevertheless, the reaction rate is constrained by the fact that this is a surface reaction, and the amount of surface area is limited. (In an eventual plasma formed from such an electrolyte however no such constraint exists, though the mean free path between particles in a plasma is greater). [snip] >If hydrides form, the issue is how does an electron in a special, unique >orbit associated with H interact with normal electrons in the combining >atom? Such interactions provide the required energy for compound >formation. Without this energy, the "hydrides" become physical mixtures. I would guess that muonic "molecules" provide a guideline here. In short hydrinohydride can replace an existing electron from any atom, resulting in a charge bound (i.e. ionic) "molecule". Note that for severely shrunken hydrinohydride, this bond can be stronger than any other known chemical bond (by at least an order of magnitude). This means that mass spectrometry will frequently incorrectly identify such molecules as atoms of heavier elements. In order to distinguish them from the real McCoy, additional tests such as MRI and NAA are required. [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 29 14:35:34 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0TMZLno022409; Sat, 29 Jan 2005 14:35:21 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0TMZJte022391; Sat, 29 Jan 2005 14:35:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 14:35:19 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Britz: Not enough gas to cause explosion? Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 09:34:51 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <01cf01c504b1$1bf01ad0$ea49ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> <6.2.0.14.2.20050127165422.02ae4ec0@pop.mindspring.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050128103514.02a8a2f8@pop.mindspring.com> <003b01c50554$b37c80c0$d0bcfea9@jonesb9pacbell> <41FA6AC7.10203@ix.netcom.com> <00f601c5060a$61edc820$186f53d8@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <41FBBF83.6010003@ix.netcom.com> <010a01c50627$f4319af0$186f53d8@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <007001c50645$12a15440$6400a8c0@VINCE> In-Reply-To: <007001c50645$12a15440$6400a8c0 VINCE> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j0TMZFno022165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57398 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Vince Cockeram's message of Sat, 29 Jan 2005 12:56:58 -0800: Hi, [snip] >Indeed! When I was running a glow discharge in H2 + K, I had an 'event' that >I can not explain. >I had run this experiment probably a hundred times and had never seen what >occurred. >A run on March 18, 2000 at a 30 watt tube current was proceeding steady and >normal when >suddenly the wattage dropped to ~5 watts input and the temperature increased >by over 400 C. in >the next few minutes. Without going back and searching my lab notes I recall >the voltage remained >at about 300 dc and the current dropped way down. I guess this indicates >that the tube impedance >suddenly increased, but as to why, I don't have a clue. [snip] If one turns these two observations around, it may make more sense. A rapid increase in temperature, may imply either a rapid increase in hydrino formation, or an increase in severely shrunken hydrinohydride formation on at least one electrode. Since severely shrunken hydrinohydride can be expected to form a strong bond (not unlike an oxide), one might expect the resultant surface layer to act as an insulator, restricting the current flow through the tube. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 29 16:06:32 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0U05pno019144; Sat, 29 Jan 2005 16:06:01 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0U05m5q019130; Sat, 29 Jan 2005 16:05:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 16:05:48 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.1.2.0.0.20050129185853.01fa9128 pop.theworld.com> X-Sender: mica pop.theworld.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.2.0 Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 19:04:31 -0500 To: Jed Rothwell , vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Physics Today 1/25/05 - Feder Cc: Mitchell Swartz In-Reply-To: <33280500.1107036720872.JavaMail.root wamui10.slb.atl.earth link.net> References: <33280500.1107036720872.JavaMail.root wamui10.slb.atl.earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57399 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 05:12 PM 1/29/2005, you wrote: >Mitchell Swartz wrote: > > >>We put the titles back! They are in the database! > > > > Nonsense. The three papers are NOT in the ICCF-10 data base at > > http://www.lenr-canr.org/Collections/ICCF10.htm > > which is (inaccurately) entitled " > >That list only includes papers that we have on file at LENR-CANR.org. Each >paper in the list is >linked to the copy in the library. There are 4 or 5 others that we know >exist but we do not list, >because the authors did not give us copies. For example, Hagelstein told >me he wrote a paper >but he never got around to giving me a copy, so I deleted his paper from >that list. You -- Mitch >-- never gave us papers, so after a while I assumed you never wrote any, >and I deleted your >papers from this list and from the master list. When you informed me that >the papers do >exist, I put them back in the master list. If you give me copies I will >put them back in this list, >too. Mr. Rothwell: You are an absolute untruthful person. Witnesses watched me hand you the papers and the CD-ROM containing them at Gene's funeral, where you were putting him down. Foolishly I then gave you a ride to Boston. Thereafter, you also received copies of then entire three papers by email and we discussed them, so your credibility is ZERO with us, -- as it is with so many others who have learned of your sociopathic behavior. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 29 16:26:14 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0U0Pino025739; Sat, 29 Jan 2005 16:25:48 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0U0Pfa5025718; Sat, 29 Jan 2005 16:25:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 16:25:41 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <16812198.1107044737628.JavaMail.root wamui10.slb.atl.earthlink.net> Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 19:25:37 -0500 (EST) From: Jed Rothwell Reply-To: Jed Rothwell To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Physics Today 1/25/05 - Feder Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Earthlink Zoo Mail 1.0 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57400 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell Swartz wrote: > Mr. Rothwell: > You are an absolute untruthful person. Witnesses watched me hand you > the papers > and the CD-ROM containing them at Gene's funeral Yes. As I said -- about a dozen times -- I could not read that CD-ROM. Please upload the papers to your own web page and I will copy them. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 29 16:26:35 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0U0Q6no025917; Sat, 29 Jan 2005 16:26:10 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0U0Q2nS025854; Sat, 29 Jan 2005 16:26:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 16:26:02 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000201c50662$3e01bc70$0500a8c0 nixlaptop> From: "Nick Palmer" To: "Vortex-L" Subject: Physics website Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 00:25:36 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0003_01C50662.37C66E00" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57401 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C50662.37C66E00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I came upon this website which seems to be capable of answering any = obscure question about those areas you're not sure about... http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/physics/ ------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C50662.37C66E00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I came upon this website which seems to = be capable=20 of answering any obscure question about those areas you're not sure=20 about...
 
http://scienceworld.wol= fram.com/physics/
------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C50662.37C66E00-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 29 16:31:17 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0U0V1no028110; Sat, 29 Jan 2005 16:31:02 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0U0V0wa028069; Sat, 29 Jan 2005 16:31:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 16:31:00 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: A question for the electrochemists X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: ID = 7b84137320e539ae3bcf255acd0b8dbd Reply-To: michael.foster excite.com From: "Michael Foster" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: michael.foster excite.com X-Mailer: PHP Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050130003052.425BE3F2B xprdmailfe6.nwk.excite.com> Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 19:30:52 -0500 (EST) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57402 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I hate to suggest this in an era of hyperhysteria about toxic substances, but a mercury cathode would likely do the trick here. You just have a shallow layer of Hg at the bottom of your cell and make sure the wire that passes through the electrolyte to the the Hg is insulated. If you are careful, you can stir the electrolyte without disturbing the surface of the Hg cathode. M. =============================================== --- On Fri 01/28, Robin van Spaandonk < rvanspaa bigpond.net.au > wrote: From: Robin van Spaandonk [mailto: rvanspaa bigpond.net.au] To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 09:45:30 +1100 Subject: Re: A question for the electrochemists In reply to Michael Foster's message of Thu, 27 Jan 2005 23:36:39 -0500:
Hi Michael,
[snip]
> Hi Robin,
>
>I assume you mean potassium carbonate in an aqueous solution. If that is the case, you won't get any potassium metal at all. You need a molten non-aqueous potassium compound in order to do this, such as potassium chloride.

Yes, I do mean in an aqueous solution, though I don't mean a permanent layer of potassium. I realise full well that any potassium formed will react almost immediately with the surrounding water. However H+, or perhaps even water molecules will also be reduced at the cathode. What I am looking for is that combination of parameters that results in a maximal "turn over" of potassium ions, as opposed to the other reactions competing for the free electrons supplied by the cathode.


Regards,


Robin van Spaandonk

All SPAM goes in the trash unread.

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 29 16:31:54 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0U0Veno028360; Sat, 29 Jan 2005 16:31:40 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0U0VcHi028335; Sat, 29 Jan 2005 16:31:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 16:31:38 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <1071513.1107045095864.JavaMail.root wamui10.slb.atl.earthlink.net> Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 19:31:35 -0500 (EST) From: Jed Rothwell Reply-To: Jed Rothwell To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Physics Today 1/25/05 - Feder Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Earthlink Zoo Mail 1.0 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57403 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell Swartz wrote: > Thereafter, you also received copies of then entire three papers by > email and we discussed them, No, I never did. I doubt the papers can be e-mailed, because you told me they are large, and e-mail can only handle a few megabytes. > so your credibility is ZERO with us . . . If you really believe that, you should upload the papers to your own website. You will prove to everyone that I am lying. On the other hand, if I do copy them and upload them as I have promised to do, *your* credibility will suffer. I suggest you stop whining, kvetching and carrying on like a two-year-old, and prove your point by uploading the papers. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 29 17:51:45 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0U1pWno026487; Sat, 29 Jan 2005 17:51:32 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0U1pTTL026468; Sat, 29 Jan 2005 17:51:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 17:51:29 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <9440143.1107049887656.JavaMail.root wamui04.slb.atl.earthlink.net> Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 20:51:27 -0500 (GMT-05:00) From: Jed Rothwell Reply-To: Jed Rothwell To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Swartz papers added to Collections/ICCF10.htm Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Earthlink Zoo Mail 1.0 Resent-Message-ID: <2l6qKC.A.bdG.h2D_BB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57404 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Okay, I added two of M. Swartz's ICCF10 papers to: http://www.lenr-canr.org/Collections/ICCF10.htm (You may need to reload the page to see them.) Swartz mentioned there are three papers, but I cannot find the other one. I left a blank slot for it. If I remember what the third paper is (or if he tells me), I will add it. Swartz was upset because these papers were not listed. I hope he feels better now. It is strange to list papers in our Special Collection which are not actually part of our collection at all, but it is no big deal. Consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, after all. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 29 18:02:29 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0U22Ano030029; Sat, 29 Jan 2005 18:02:10 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0U228rZ030009; Sat, 29 Jan 2005 18:02:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 18:02:08 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: A question for the electrochemists Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 13:01:41 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <1ufov0tq75v6td0dlb0lddvgs1v020rhcs 4ax.com> References: <20050130003052.425BE3F2B xprdmailfe6.nwk.excite.com> In-Reply-To: <20050130003052.425BE3F2B xprdmailfe6.nwk.excite.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j0U224no029839 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57405 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Michael Foster's message of Sat, 29 Jan 2005 19:30:52 -0500: Hi Michael, [snip] > >I hate to suggest this in an era of hyperhysteria about >toxic substances, but a mercury cathode would likely >do the trick here. You just have a shallow layer of >Hg at the bottom of your cell and make sure the wire >that passes through the electrolyte to the the Hg is >insulated. If you are careful, you can stir the >electrolyte without disturbing the surface of the Hg >cathode. This is interesting, but I don't understand the reason behind the suggestion. Could you please explain? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 29 18:09:38 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0U29Nno032349; Sat, 29 Jan 2005 18:09:23 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0U29L4e032338; Sat, 29 Jan 2005 18:09:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 18:09:21 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Accident Report from Mizuno Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 13:09:13 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <00ed01c503ef$109451f0$ea49ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> <20050126235319.47156.qmail@web51708.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j0U29Ino032296 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57406 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to thomas malloy's message of Sat, 29 Jan 2005 01:39:20 -0600: Hi, >And, Robin Von Spaandonk replied; > >>In reply to Terry Blanton's message of Wed, 26 Jan 2005 15:53:19 -0800: >>Hi, >> >--- Mike Carrell wrote: >> >>Possibly. In an old cell, hydrinos, or their compounds may have been >>accumulating for a long time. > >You mean in the pores? I meant on the solid surfaces, where hydrinohydride can bond with other atoms. [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 29 19:02:40 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0U32Kno017086; Sat, 29 Jan 2005 19:02:21 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0U32JAX017076; Sat, 29 Jan 2005 19:02:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 19:02:19 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=AigUelJ29gVAPJWzR5cs3UGd60bEpUk5Hj+7F091GvP6vwp7YNMddBICo4TrvaR1+cEUCjxnRbWu8PaCTySSjp2XCDAvWc6xNWoW0MWaxDNoYEFnFRtWCeEttyqdGObVESjIEZTE1SnAfMIs7LaG6+soSwnP7hVKP756yx1b6qw= ; Message-ID: <20050130030206.53613.qmail web54504.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 19:02:06 -0800 (PST) From: Merlyn Subject: Mechanics of magnetism To: Vortex MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1033122110-1107054126=:53436" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57407 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-1033122110-1107054126=:53436 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii OK, I've been trying to get my head around the mechanism behind magnetism. I see a magnetic field as a disturbance in the aether caused by a moving charge. Where I bog down is trying to understand how this disturbance overcomes the natural repulsion between like charges. The mental experiment I'm working with is that of 2 parallel beams of electrons. At what velocity would the electrical repulsion of these beams be overcome by the magnetic field? This experiment would be quite simple to conduct, simply fire 2 parallel electron beams into a target, and graph actual beam seperation at target vs electron velocity. I think magnetic attraction may be due to the dopplering of the electric field around a moving charge. (Although, if the "velocity" of the field is the speed of light, there would be very little dopplering in most electrical systems where the electron drift velocity can be measured in cm/sec) Although if this is the way it works, then the "shockwave" of a charge surpassing the speed of light (in the medium in which it travels) may account for cherenkov radiation. Man do I ramble sometimes... I can't be senile yet, I'm only 26! Merlyn Magickal Engineer and Technical Metaphysicist --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' --0-1033122110-1107054126=:53436 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
OK, I've been trying to get my head around the mechanism behind magnetism.  I see a magnetic field as a disturbance in the aether caused by a moving charge.  Where I bog down is trying to understand how this disturbance overcomes the natural repulsion between like charges.
 
The mental experiment I'm working with is that of 2 parallel beams of electrons.  At what velocity would the electrical repulsion of these beams be overcome by the magnetic field?
This experiment would be quite simple to conduct, simply fire 2 parallel electron beams into a target, and graph actual beam seperation at target vs electron velocity.
 
I think magnetic attraction may be due to the dopplering of the electric field around a moving charge.  (Although, if the "velocity" of the field is the speed of light, there would be very little dopplering in most electrical systems where the electron drift velocity can be measured in cm/sec)  Although if this is the way it works, then the "shockwave" of a charge surpassing the speed of light (in the medium in which it travels) may account for cherenkov radiation.
 
<shakes head sadly> Man do I ramble sometimes... I can't be senile yet, I'm only 26!


Merlyn
Magickal Engineer and Technical Metaphysicist

Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' --0-1033122110-1107054126=:53436-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 29 19:50:32 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0U3oMno003706; Sat, 29 Jan 2005 19:50:22 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0U3oK8p003689; Sat, 29 Jan 2005 19:50:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 19:50:20 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <41FC59D5.4070603 ix.netcom.com> Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 20:51:49 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Britz: Not enough gas to cause explosion? References: <01cf01c504b1$1bf01ad0$ea49ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> <6.2.0.14.2.20050127165422.02ae4ec0@pop.mindspring.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050128103514.02a8a2f8@pop.mindspring.com> <003b01c50554$b37c80c0$d0bcfea9@jonesb9pacbell> <41FA6AC7.10203@ix.netcom.com> <00f601c5060a$61edc820$186f53d8@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <41FBBF83.6010003@ix.netcom.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57408 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > In reply to Edmund Storms's message of Sat, 29 Jan 2005 09:53:23 -0700: > Hi, > [snip] > >>I don't understand how "instantly" is possible. Two entities must get >>together. This takes time. > > > Of course it does, however that time is very short on human scales, provided that the density of catalyst and fuel particles is high. "High"-which is the operational word. I suggest the concentration can never be sufficiently "high". > Even in a normal gas at room temperature, each molecule undergoes about 500 million collisions every second. > Even if only 1 in a hundred thousand results in a shrinkage reaction, that still means that the average shrinkage reaction only takes a fraction of a millisecond. In short, when a chain reaction occurs, it could easily all be over in less than a millisecond. IMO that qualifies as "instantly". > For an explosion to occur, a shock wave must be produced. Simply having energy suddenly produced in a volume would only cause the temperature go up, and ionization to occur with a flash of radiation. The sudden heating would expand the gas to a higher pressure, say from 1 atm to 10 atm. This would not be enough to shatter a heavy glass vessel - blow the lid off, maybe. > >>Once energy is released from this collision, >>the local process stops. If additional energy is to be released, two >>more entities must find each other. > > > True, but the reactions don't wait on one another. I.e. the reactions are not all consecutive, many of them happen in parallel. In fact, in a chain reaction scenario, the number of parallel reactions is constantly increasing. > My point here was that each event adds its contribution and then is spent. The O++ catalyst is not reused. It is not clear that the reaction its self is even capable of producing more O++. Such a replacement is only an assumption needed for your explanation. >>This is not like explosive >>decomposition where all of the ingredients are already together. > > > Actually it is. It is akin to the chain reaction which takes place in a fission bomb, except that neutron production rate is replaced by catalyst ion production rate. Though in this case "together" means in the same container, rather than in the same molecule. > I don't see how you get a chain reaction. A very dilute mixture of H2 and O++ is present, both of which are used up in the process. Even if O++ were replaced, this would not be expected to occur at a significant rate, i.e. in micro seconds. After all, the original concentration of O++ was accumulated only after minutes of previous electrolysis. > >>Even in >>a natural gas explosion, which would be similar to the H + O++ >>condition, a near stoichiometric mixture is required to have significant >>shockwave production. Otherwise, one justs get a moving flame. > > > This may explain why there are so few hydrino explosions. The conditions need to meet strict minimum requirements. > > A chain reaction using O++ can occur when the rate of formation of both catalyst and H atoms exceeds the consumption rate. O++ is formed through collisions with energetic particles (or UV photons or gamma rays). > O++ can be formed when a hydrino of at least level 3 is formed, however most level 3 reactions will not result in O++ formation, because the energy will end up elsewhere. Consequently either reactions of on average much higher level must take place, or fusion reactions must take place. The latter lifts the average O++ production rate, because each fusion reaction can produce hundreds to thousands of O++ ions, while it may only take one O++ ion to finally trigger a fusion reaction, among a population of previously existing severely shrunken hydrinos. > I don't understand what kind of fusion reaction you imagine using H2. In any case, such a reaction would release nuclear energies, which would be expected to produce visible particle and X-ray emission, unlike the cold fusion process in a solid. These are apparently not seen, or felt. (Here the "dead graduate student" effect comes in again.) > >>Also, >>extra volume is not produced in the hydrino reaction so that the shock >>wave can not grow. > > > Extra volume is produced in hydrino reactions, because plasma growth results in the production of free electrons, each of which counts as a separate particle. Hence the particle count is commensurate with the average ionisation level. A hot plasma formed from an electrolyte (which contains many multi-electron atoms), could therefore easily result in a doubling of the number of particles per reaction, and possibly more, as the temperature increases. Not to mention normal thermal expansion. > [snip] Free electrons are generated by formation of ions. These ions quickly recapture their electrons so that only initially are these extra particles part of the shock wave. I don't think this would be a serious source of expansion. Heating is another matter, but not very effective. Regards, Ed > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 29 20:35:30 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0U4Z9no024249; Sat, 29 Jan 2005 20:35:13 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0U4Z6Go024227; Sat, 29 Jan 2005 20:35:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 20:35:06 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Standing Bear To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Accident Report from Mizuno Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 23:36:42 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 References: <00ed01c503ef$109451f0$ea49ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200501292336.42160.rockcast earthlink.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57409 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > > Robin van Spaandonk > > All SPAM goes in the trash unread. Easy way to can spam! In Linux, get into your K-Mail program where you get your mail...sans virii. By the way, of cos' your sniffin the net as an 'ordinary user' and not as the 'root' user. Never sniff the net as the 'super'. Then go to 'Settings' and pick 'Configure Filters' Do radio button 'Match all of the following; Under first criteria line: header item to key on criteria definition To does'nt equal Under advanced options, check all boxes except 'to sent messages'. Leave that one clear. Then click 'ok' at the bottom and this filter is set. Next turn HTML off in the K-Mail settings for e-mail Turn cookies and java and javascript off for e-mail make two more filters, one to catch html messages by keying on 'any header' and define it as containing the phrase 'text/html'. The next by defining the last filter by keying again on 'any header' and using the definition to look for as the phrase 'multipart/alternative' Linux' K-Mail has a good filter system that is better and far more flexible than windows. The above method will not work in windows. In windows you are at the mercy of rapacious html code, and have only the most rudimentary control over java and javascript. The above filters work because scamming scum likes to get maximum distribution for thier digital feces. They usually do not know your name, and if they do, it is part of a long list. The list trips them up, and non use of your name alone on the too line trips them up. It is more effective than all the catch playing on the subject line. This is because the too line is more restrictive. Spammers also cannot resist using html and/or attachments. It is both their way of hiding malware and also of delivering it. Disallow its use and detect and divert it automatically on reciept to the appropriate holding cell (just to see the roaches before you step on them)......and the junk will be gone and you will never be bothered by it again. What shows up now in your box will be pretty much your stuff. Unless you are an Earthlink subscriber! Some insider in that national ISP is selling their subscriber list to spammers and international crooks. These suede shoe boys are running phishing rackets posing as Earthlink when they are not posing as Nigerian 'royal heiresses' etc, and may have your specific e-address. Letters to Earthlink about the crooks go unanswered, and somebody there has finally succeeded in making of the common telephone a useless device good only for the amusement of two year olds to ring the tones for the entertainment of the digital robots on the other end. So if you get a lot of that, just send it to the FCC if you feel like it. Do not hold your breath there either. Standing Bear From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 29 21:24:09 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0U5N6no010894; Sat, 29 Jan 2005 21:23:11 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0U5MtXk010761; Sat, 29 Jan 2005 21:22:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 21:22:55 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: A question for the electrochemists X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: ID = 7b84137320e539ae3bcf255acd0b8dbd Reply-To: michael.foster excite.com From: "Michael Foster" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: michael.foster excite.com X-Mailer: PHP Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050130052243.38B043DE0 xprdmailfe6.nwk.excite.com> Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 00:22:43 -0500 (EST) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57410 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: It's pretty simple. The potassium metal created at the interface between the electrolyte and the Hg cathode is amalgamated and drops below the suface where it is protected from oxidation. As you say you want a turnover of the potassium back into the electrolyte, you would want to avoid agitating the mercury. In fact, you might want to try amalgamating the surface of a copper plate to use as a cathode, thus avoiding the issue of agitation altogether. Something else you could try is to use whatever cathode you have now and cover it with a protective hydophyllic polymer such as polyvinyl pyrrolidone. I'm not sure how well this would work. It's just a guess. M. =========================================== --- On Sat 01/29, Robin van Spaandonk < rvanspaa bigpond.net.au > wrote: In reply to Michael Foster's message of Sat, 29 Jan 2005 19:30:52 -0500: Hi Michael, [snip] > >I hate to suggest this in an era of hyperhysteria about >toxic substances, but a mercury cathode would likely >do the trick here. You just have a shallow layer of >Hg at the bottom of your cell and make sure the wire >that passes through the electrolyte to the the Hg is >insulated. If you are careful, you can stir the >electrolyte without disturbing the surface of the Hg >cathode. This is interesting, but I don't understand the reason behind the suggestion. Could you please explain? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 29 21:30:52 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0U5UHno014436; Sat, 29 Jan 2005 21:30:17 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0U5U3MQ014333; Sat, 29 Jan 2005 21:30:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 21:30:03 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Britz: Not enough gas to cause explosion? Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 16:29:47 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <01cf01c504b1$1bf01ad0$ea49ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> <6.2.0.14.2.20050127165422.02ae4ec0@pop.mindspring.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050128103514.02a8a2f8@pop.mindspring.com> <003b01c50554$b37c80c0$d0bcfea9@jonesb9pacbell> <41FA6AC7.10203@ix.netcom.com> <00f601c5060a$61edc820$186f53d8@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <41FBBF83.6010003@ix.netcom.com> <41FC59D5.4070603@ix.netcom.com> In-Reply-To: <41FC59D5.4070603 ix.netcom.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j0U5Trno014190 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57411 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Edmund Storms's message of Sat, 29 Jan 2005 20:51:49 -0700: Hi, [snip] >For an explosion to occur, a shock wave must be produced. Simply having >energy suddenly produced in a volume would only cause the temperature go >up, and ionization to occur with a flash of radiation. The sudden >heating would expand the gas to a higher pressure, say from 1 atm to 10 >atm. This would not be enough to shatter a heavy glass vessel - blow >the lid off, maybe. Nuclear weapons essentially work on this principle, creating very little in the way of extra atoms compared to the size of the shock wave, which is essentially a result of thermal ionisation of the surrounding air. (The actual amount of material present is only a few kg, while the shock wave can have an extent of many km's). Furthermore, in the case at hand, the surrounding medium is water rather than air, so flash vaporization will also produce a shock wave (which the surrounding water will very effectively transmit to the walls of the container). It really all depends on just how much energy is liberated, and in what time frame. [snip] >My point here was that each event adds its contribution and then is >spent. The O++ catalyst is not reused. This is actually only partly true. The reaction goes like this: O++ + H -> O+++ + H* followed by O+++ + e- -> O++ + UV where the e- comes from the plasma, or just about anything else in the neighbourhood that happens to have electrons attached to it. :) So the O++ is reconstituted after use. The only problem is to reuse it before it captures another electron and becomes O+. >It is not clear that the reaction >its self is even capable of producing more O++. Such a replacement is >only an assumption needed for your explanation. When H[n=1/3 (or more)] is formed from H, a total of 108.8 eV is liberated. Of this, 54.4 eV goes to the catalyst, leaving 54.4 eV either in the form of UV, or as kinetic energy of the hydrino. In either case, there is sufficient energy present to ionise O+ to O++ (which requires about 35 eV). The UV from the reaction: O+++ +e- -> O++ + 54.9 eV is also sufficient to convert O+ to O++, or there is also the reaction: O+++ + O+ -> 2 O++ However as previously mentioned, most of the time this energy won't be "spent" in this way. That means either that the UV/hydrino needs to have more initial energy so that even after losing some energy to competing processes, enough remains upon encountering O+ to ionise it to O++, or supplementary O++ needs to be formed from fusion reactions. I should point out that by the time n gets to e.g. n=1/10, a drop of 2 levels, such as would be catalyzed by O++, to n=1/12, results in an energy release of 598 eV, which with luck may even produce multiple O++ ions. Given an initial population of severely shrunken hydrinos, it should therefore be possible to reach a self sustaining (chain) reaction. (For n=1/120 -> n=1/122 this is 6582 eV according to Mills). What I am trying to make clear here, is that once shrinkage has progressed far enough, the reaction can be self-sustaining, even though the production of O++ is not very efficient, simply because the inefficiency is out weighed by the energy excess from the reaction. It's just a matter of using hydrinos that are at such a level that O++ production rate exceeds consumption rate. (I don't know what that level is, but I hope to have shown that such a level may well exist). [snip] >I don't see how you get a chain reaction. A very dilute mixture of H2 >and O++ is present, both of which are used up in the process. Even if >O++ were replaced, this would not be expected to occur at a significant >rate, i.e. in micro seconds. After all, the original concentration of >O++ was accumulated only after minutes of previous electrolysis. There was no original concentration of O++. What was accumulating over time is hydrinos of ever high levels of shrinkage. Once the average shrinkage level reaches a certain point, an explosion becomes possible (in water). It then only requires a trigger to set it off. IOW the most important point in the Mizuno experiment is that fact that the cell had been in use for about 5 years. This gave plenty of time to cake the inside wall (and/or electrode(s)) with high level hydrinos. It also means that others using the same container (or electrode(s)) for extended periods should also be prepared for explosions at some point. In a high temperature plasma containing primarily O and H, mixed with high energy hydrinos/UV, O++ formation would no longer be a rare occurrence. We are not looking at a slowly accumulated supply of catalyst here, but rather at a situation where a more than adequate supply is created, on the fly, in situ. As the reaction proceeds, the supply actually increases (because the average hydrino shrinkage level increases, and hence also the average energy released per shrinkage reaction). [snip] >I don't understand what kind of fusion reaction you imagine using H2. In e.g. H* + O16 -> F17 + 600 keV (as energetic electron or gamma ray) H* + K39 -> Ca40 + 8 MeV (as energetic electron or gamma ray) These use severely shrunken H* not H2. The H2 is used only to produce H, which then further reacts with O++ to create new hydrinos and release energy. >any case, such a reaction would release nuclear energies, which would be >expected to produce visible particle and X-ray emission, unlike the cold >fusion process in a solid. These are apparently not seen, or felt. >(Here the "dead graduate student" effect comes in again.) It may take a long time to produce hydrinos that are sufficiently shrunken to achieve fusion (i.e. "5 years"). There may have been such ionising radiation produced in the Mizuno explosion. Who is going to notice it when their experiment is blowing up in their face? (In another post, someone suggested measuring the remains of the cell for lingering radioactivity. This was a good suggestion, particularly the remains of the electrode where the explosion appeared to originate.) [snip] >Free electrons are generated by formation of ions. These ions quickly >recapture their electrons so that only initially are these extra >particles part of the shock wave. I don't think this would be a serious >source of expansion. Heating is another matter, but not very effective. [snip] See comments above re. nuclear weapons. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 29 22:22:27 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0U6MGo9002356; Sat, 29 Jan 2005 22:22:17 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0U6MF80002327; Sat, 29 Jan 2005 22:22:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 22:22:15 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <00f601c5060a$61edc820$186f53d8 MIKEBY3NR533HT> References: <01cf01c504b1$1bf01ad0$ea49ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> <6.2.0.14.2.20050127165422.02ae4ec0 pop.mindspring.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050128103514.02a8a2f8 pop.mindspring.com> <003b01c50554$b37c80c0$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> <41FA6AC7.10203 ix.netcom.com> <00f601c5060a$61edc820$186f53d8 MIKEBY3NR533HT> Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 00:22:53 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: Britz: Not enough gas to cause explosion? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57412 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Ed Storms wrote: and Mike Carrell responded; > >> I suggest several facts must be kept in mind when proposing the hydrino >> explanation. >> >> 1. Energy is only released when hydrinos are formed, not when >> accumulated hydrinos are returned to "normal". > >Correct. I was discussing Patapov's Yusmar machine with David Moon. Tests reported excess amounts of C 14 in the water, which lead David to postulate a reaction of a Neupron with N to yield C 14. David's calculations required the input of energy in order to go from H to a neupron, which I assume is similar to a hydrino, except that according to Mills hydrino formation yields energy. OTOH, the environmental conditions necessary to facilitate hydrino formation may exceed the energy of hydrino production. > > >> 2. Hydrino production can only be produced rather slowly, only as >> rapidly as normal H diffuses to the active site and the resulting >> hydrino diffuses away. > >No. Hydrino production can proceed at any speed, including instantly. There And they can form stable compounds which would allow them to accumulate. The big question is what set this event off? > > >> Nevertheless, I agree that too much energy seems to have been released > > to be accounted for by a "normal" H2+O2 reaction. What interests me is the speed of the reaction. It seems to me that given the interesting pattern of the cracks in the bottom of the vessel, a shock wave was responsible for the damage. Since the composition of the damaged material, and the distance from the event, to the damage is known, it should be possible to calculate the amount of energy, and the speed of it's release, required to cause the damage. BTW, what's the final story on the funnel. was there one above the area of gas emission or not? > >Remember F&P? Also unlikely. Remember where you came from. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 29 23:31:23 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0U7VCHn026309; Sat, 29 Jan 2005 23:31:12 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0U7V9wH026287; Sat, 29 Jan 2005 23:31:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 23:31:09 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050130072814.0068db80 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 07:28:14 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Entry to "Phenomena Reports" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57413 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:46 pm 29-01-05 +0000, you wrote: >At 08:20 pm 28-01-05 -0500, Colin Quinney wrote: > >>>The following Hutchison Effect forum post is beyond belief, >> but then again after Bill Beaty's wandering stir stick, who knows? : >> I have now read George Hathaway's Hutchison File.pdf and there can be no question in my mind that the effects are genuine enough. The tragedy is the Hutchison is so disorganized and seemingly incapable of carrying out the scientific investigation needed to coerce skeptics to recognise the reality of the Hutchison effect. But then I suppose if he had adopted the conventional scientific approach he would never have stumbled on the effect in the first place. In my own case, I remember how difficult it was to devise experiments which would demonstrate the reality of Beta-atmospheric pressure. Even after writing the Southampton Material Conference and Speculation in Science and Technology papers, I only believed in B-a pressure intellectually. It took many years for me to "brainwash" myself into believing in it emotionally. Only then was I was able to device the crucial experiments described in the book chapter. I suppose the situation is similar to trying to convince the man on the Clapham omnibus that air is pressing on every square inch of his body with a force equal to the weight of a gallon and a half of water. We assume that when Otto demonstrated the existence of air pressure with his semi-spheres pulled apart by horses that everyone was an immediate believer in Alpha-atmospheric pressure. But I bet the number of people he convinced at the time was minuscule. As for levitation etc., consider this. If one could manipulate air pressure around object so as to impale straws in doors, just think what one can achieve by manipulating Beta-atmosphere pressure. If UFO's exist - and personally, I don't believe that they do - then it seems pretty obvious to me that they must have discovered how to "fly" through the Beta-atmosphere in an analogous fashion to the way we fly through the Alpha-atmosphere. They must have also recognised (as Ing.Saviour and I do - see the posts on his Yahoo site) that Newton was mistaken in thinking that inertial mass was a measure of matter and not merely a property of matter analogous to temperature though on a very much finer scale. This means that UFO passengers can be shielded from Beta-atmospheric inertial effects in an analogous way to that in which airline passengers are insulated from Alpha-atmospheric effects. If they weren't the enormous accelerations involved would spread them like strawberry jam on the internal walls of the UFO. 8-) Cheers Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 30 00:01:29 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0U81EHn005649; Sun, 30 Jan 2005 00:01:14 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0U81CHu005627; Sun, 30 Jan 2005 00:01:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 00:01:12 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20050129175637.37370.qmail web51702.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050129175637.37370.qmail web51702.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 02:01:20 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: UFO Propulsion Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57414 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Different from Fred's flying fluorescent: > >http://homepage.ntlworld.com/ufophysics/ufoplasmaengine.htm It would be marvelous if it worked, eh? I've heard lots of people claiming to have a machine that works on a Schauberger vortex, talk talk, talk talk. The author obviously gets most of his exercise flying off the handle after jumping to conclusions. His political stick reminds me of Alex Jones, www.prisonplanet.com and www.infowars.com , who was interviewed on C to C AM last week. His religious views are abominable. My reaction is, if the New World Odor, I mean Order people have that sort of power you might as well stick your head in between your legs and kiss your a-- good bye. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 30 02:16:18 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0UAG5JM023380; Sun, 30 Jan 2005 02:16:06 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0UAG3VB023367; Sun, 30 Jan 2005 02:16:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 02:16:03 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050130101310.00688f38 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 10:13:10 +0000 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Nano-lube Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57415 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: No more oil changes? http://tinyurl.com/56kjf Can't come too soon for me. 8-) G. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 30 06:10:30 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0UEAIZj020283; Sun, 30 Jan 2005 06:10:18 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0UEACji020222; Sun, 30 Jan 2005 06:10:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 06:10:12 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=mKxBYTJ+fzthH6yIEwrhHLBRz93rWJfcpzdFLljSj6SQx2Jk+sFbqyUTBTJqsmBa; Message-ID: <410-22005103013953780 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Contemplation Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 07:09:53 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9408585e2309d40f836e61ebcfda8fde9ae350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.120.48 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57416 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Larmor's equations: R = 2/3 * Kq^2 * a^2/c^3 K = 1/4(pi)eo (~= 9e9) a = acceleration & R = 2/3 * Kq^2 * a^2/c^3 * (1- v^2/c^2) ^ - 1/4 Fundamentals: 1, A moving charge (q) creates a magnetic field (B). 2, A time-varying magnetic field creates an electric field (E) 3, An accelerated moving charge (q) creates an accelerating magnetic field (B). 4, An accelerating magnetic field creates a strange field independent of (E) ?? :-) Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

Larmor's equations:
 
R = 2/3 * Kq^2 * a^2/c^3     K = 1/4(pi)eo  (~= 9e9) a = acceleration
&
R = 2/3 * Kq^2 * a^2/c^3 * (1- v^2/c^2) ^ - 1/4
 
Fundamentals:
 
1, A moving charge (q) creates a magnetic field (B).
 
2, A time-varying magnetic field creates an electric field (E)
 
3, An accelerated moving charge (q) creates an accelerating magnetic field (B).
 
4, An accelerating magnetic field creates a strange field independent of  (E) ??   :-)
 
Frederick
 
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 30 08:26:48 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0UGQYZj007618; Sun, 30 Jan 2005 08:26:35 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0UGQW4R007584; Sun, 30 Jan 2005 08:26:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 08:26:32 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-BrightmailFiltered: true X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Message-ID: <1107316.1107102388091.JavaMail.root wamui07.slb.atl.earthlink.net> Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 11:26:27 -0500 (GMT-05:00) From: Jed Rothwell Reply-To: Jed Rothwell To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Britz: Not enough gas to cause explosion? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Earthlink Zoo Mail 1.0 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57417 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: thomas malloy wrote: > BTW, what's the final story on the funnel. was there one above the > area of gas emission or not? No, there was not. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 30 09:04:25 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0UH4AZj020134; Sun, 30 Jan 2005 09:04:11 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0UH46fA020092; Sun, 30 Jan 2005 09:04:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 09:04:06 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <41FD13E5.8070803 ix.netcom.com> Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 10:05:41 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Britz: Not enough gas to cause explosion? References: <01cf01c504b1$1bf01ad0$ea49ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> <6.2.0.14.2.20050127165422.02ae4ec0@pop.mindspring.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050128103514.02a8a2f8@pop.mindspring.com> <003b01c50554$b37c80c0$d0bcfea9@jonesb9pacbell> <41FA6AC7.10203@ix.netcom.com> <00f601c5060a$61edc820$186f53d8@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <41FBBF83.6010003@ix.netcom.com> <41FC59D5.4070603@ix.netcom.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57418 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > In reply to Edmund Storms's message of Sat, 29 Jan 2005 20:51:49 -0700: > Hi, > [snip] > >>For an explosion to occur, a shock wave must be produced. Simply having >>energy suddenly produced in a volume would only cause the temperature go >>up, and ionization to occur with a flash of radiation. The sudden >>heating would expand the gas to a higher pressure, say from 1 atm to 10 >>atm. This would not be enough to shatter a heavy glass vessel - blow >>the lid off, maybe. > > > Nuclear weapons essentially work on this principle, creating very little in the way of extra atoms compared to the size of the shock wave, which is essentially a result of thermal ionisation of the surrounding air. > (The actual amount of material present is only a few kg, while the shock wave can have an extent of many km's). > Nuclear weapons produce so much radiation that all molecules near the device are decomposed into atoms and ions, which occupy a much larger volume. In addition, the energy density is huge. > Furthermore, in the case at hand, the surrounding medium is water rather than air, so flash vaporization will also produce a shock wave (which the surrounding water will very effectively transmit to the walls of the container). > Good point. The shock wave might originate in the water as you propose. > It really all depends on just how much energy is liberated, and in what time frame. > [snip] > >>My point here was that each event adds its contribution and then is >>spent. The O++ catalyst is not reused. > > > This is actually only partly true. The reaction goes like this: > > O++ + H -> O+++ + H* > > followed by > > O+++ + e- -> O++ + UV > > where the e- comes from the plasma, or just about anything else in the neighbourhood that happens to have electrons attached to it. :) > So the O++ is reconstituted after use. The only problem is to reuse it before it captures another electron and becomes O+. > > The window of time during which oxygen has the correct charge would seem to be rather short. I guess it is a matter of intuition whether the time is too short for sufficient O++ to be present. > >>It is not clear that the reaction >>its self is even capable of producing more O++. Such a replacement is >>only an assumption needed for your explanation. > > > When H[n=1/3 (or more)] is formed from H, a total of 108.8 eV is liberated. > Of this, 54.4 eV goes to the catalyst, leaving 54.4 eV either in the form of UV, or as kinetic energy of the hydrino. In either case, there is sufficient energy present to ionise O+ to O++ (which requires about 35 eV). > The UV from the reaction: > > O+++ +e- -> O++ + 54.9 eV > > is also sufficient to convert O+ to O++, or there is also the reaction: > > O+++ + O+ -> 2 O++ > > > However as previously mentioned, most of the time this energy won't be "spent" in this way. That means either that the UV/hydrino needs to have more initial energy so that even after losing some energy to competing processes, enough remains upon encountering O+ to ionise it to O++, or supplementary O++ needs to be formed from fusion reactions. > I should point out that by the time n gets to e.g. n=1/10, a drop of 2 levels, such as would be catalyzed by O++, to n=1/12, results in an energy release of 598 eV, which with luck may even produce multiple O++ ions. Given an initial population of severely shrunken hydrinos, it should therefore be possible to reach a self sustaining (chain) reaction. > (For n=1/120 -> n=1/122 this is 6582 eV according to Mills). > > What I am trying to make clear here, is that once shrinkage has progressed far enough, the reaction can be self-sustaining, even though the production of O++ is not very efficient, simply because the inefficiency is out weighed by the energy excess from the reaction. > OK, I understand. Presumably the reaction proceeds until all of the accumulated hydrinos are used up. > It's just a matter of using hydrinos that are at such a level that O++ production rate exceeds consumption rate. > (I don't know what that level is, but I hope to have shown that such a level may well exist). > [snip] > >>I don't see how you get a chain reaction. A very dilute mixture of H2 >>and O++ is present, both of which are used up in the process. Even if >>O++ were replaced, this would not be expected to occur at a significant >>rate, i.e. in micro seconds. After all, the original concentration of >>O++ was accumulated only after minutes of previous electrolysis. > > > There was no original concentration of O++. What was accumulating over time is hydrinos of ever high levels of shrinkage. Once the average shrinkage level reaches a certain point, an explosion becomes possible (in water). It then only requires a trigger to set it off. > IOW the most important point in the Mizuno experiment is that fact that the cell had been in use for about 5 years. This gave plenty of time to cake the inside wall (and/or electrode(s)) with high level hydrinos. > It also means that others using the same container (or electrode(s)) for extended periods should also be prepared for explosions at some point. > I don't understand how the hydrinos can accumulate in the glass. Even if they were in the glass, why and how would they suddenly come out into the solution? People normally clean their equipment between runs so that material attached to the glass would not be expected. Your model needs a significant source of hydrinos that have accumulated over a period of time, which can quickly enter the water at a particular time and react. How does this occur and why the sudden release? > In a high temperature plasma containing primarily O and H, mixed with high energy hydrinos/UV, O++ formation would no longer be a rare occurrence. > > We are not looking at a slowly accumulated supply of catalyst here, but rather at a situation where a more than adequate supply is created, on the fly, in situ. > As the reaction proceeds, the supply actually increases (because the average hydrino shrinkage level increases, and hence also the average energy released per shrinkage reaction). > [snip] > >>I don't understand what kind of fusion reaction you imagine using H2. In > > > e.g. H* + O16 -> F17 + 600 keV (as energetic electron or gamma ray) > H* + K39 -> Ca40 + 8 MeV (as energetic electron or gamma ray) > > These use severely shrunken H* not H2. The H2 is used only to produce H, which then further reacts with O++ to create new hydrinos and release energy. > I understand. > >>any case, such a reaction would release nuclear energies, which would be >>expected to produce visible particle and X-ray emission, unlike the cold >>fusion process in a solid. These are apparently not seen, or felt. >>(Here the "dead graduate student" effect comes in again.) > > > It may take a long time to produce hydrinos that are sufficiently shrunken to achieve fusion (i.e. "5 years"). > There may have been such ionising radiation produced in the Mizuno explosion. Who is going to notice it when their experiment is blowing up in their face? > (In another post, someone suggested measuring the remains of the cell for lingering radioactivity. This was a good suggestion, particularly the remains of the electrode where the explosion appeared to originate.) > [snip] > >>Free electrons are generated by formation of ions. These ions quickly >>recapture their electrons so that only initially are these extra >>particles part of the shock wave. I don't think this would be a serious >>source of expansion. Heating is another matter, but not very effective. > > [snip] > See comments above re. nuclear weapons. Yes, but the issue of magnitude is the essential difference. A nuclear weapon affects every molecule near it. The reactions you describe are on an local atomic scale. Regards, Ed > > Regards, > > > Robin van Spaandonk > > All SPAM goes in the trash unread. > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 30 09:04:45 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0UH4MZj020227; Sun, 30 Jan 2005 09:04:26 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0UH4KoX020201; Sun, 30 Jan 2005 09:04:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 09:04:20 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <004c01c506ed$034fbba0$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: Subject: Cosmo-Icono-clash Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 08:59:07 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0049_01C506A9.F496F260" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57419 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0049_01C506A9.F496F260 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "Iconoclastic" - Adj. Characterized by attack on the established belief structure or the = institutions which uphold it. How can a nearby spiral galaxy contain a quasar whose light spectrum = indicates that it is billions of light years away? It cannot if the normal, and almost universally held, assumptions on = which our "mainstream cosmological paradigm" have based for the past 50 = years - are correct. But it can and they are not.=20 One of many such stories: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/01/050111115201.htm Some few observers (outside the mainstream) might consider this finding = to make a 'prima facie case' that red-shift is NOT an accurate measure = of distance, and that there is a very strong gravitational component to = redshift, and by inference that *everything*... well, if that is so = great an exaggeration lets say: __almost everything which science now = assumes about the age and dynamics of our universe is incorrect__ that = the universe may NOT be expanding at all, and certainly not in an = inflationary manner, and furthermore, that there is no necessity for a = "big bang" at all, from a re-evaluation of the evidence.=20 A sequential succession of "little bangs" fits the evidence better (in = size, each would be the extent of our "Virgo supercluster," for = instance, which was our particular "little bang").=20 Is the preceding analysis (of the "#1 neglected science news story of = the past decade") is the iconoclastic conclusion just the raving = hyperbole of a professional iconoclast? ... perhaps, but if it were not = so shocking... especially to the career status of so-called experts, = maybe it would be considered an understatement, as much more could be = made of this finding (including a "cover-up"), because.... We have actually known details about several of these red-shift = "anomalies" for at least 20 years, maybe longer, but they have been = consistently pushed aside by the professional mainstream of cosmology as = something akin to "measurement error" (sound familiar, vortexians?). = This is because the implications of them being accurate are not just = "unsettling," they are absolutely devastating to the majority viewpoint. = Now that firm and undeniable proof is beginning to accumulate, to the = stage that it can no longer be censored and held in abeyance, and it is = starting to leak-out around the seams.... when will the dam break? In the meantime, readers of vortex will probably be among the few on the = fringes of science who really appreciate the impact of this coming = "icononclash"... as a similar situation is also ongoing in the = alternative fields which they follow most intently. Note to mention past = high level cover-ups. Jones P.S. Wouldn't it be nice if both levels of "icononclashes" were to = transpire and resolve themselves simultaneously against the mainstream = ... i.e. the macro and the micro both overturning prior "laws"... What could be going here in the "big picture" that so much iconoclasm is = in the offing in so many different areas,? ... ahem... can you spell = "quickening"... ("Aquarians" from the late 60s can, but they got their = timing off by two-score, apparently) =20 "quickening" noun: 1) the first motion of a fetus in the uterus felt by the mother near the = middle of the period of gestation 2) the process of showing signs of life or vigor ;=20 3) the act of accelerating; increasing speed or opening of new horizons. NOTE to John Fields... is it time to upgrade (downgrade?) your "big = bang" simulator to focus on "little bangs" ... =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0049_01C506A9.F496F260 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
"Iconoclastic" -
Adj. Characterized by attack on the established belief = structure or=20 the institutions which uphold it.
 
How can a nearby spiral galaxy contain a quasar whose light = spectrum=20 indicates that it is billions of light years away?
 
It cannot if the normal, and almost universally held, assumptions = on which=20 our "mainstream cosmological paradigm" have based for the past 50 years=20 - are correct.
 
But it can and they are not.
 
One of many such stories:
ht= tp://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/01/050111115201.htm
 
Some few observers (outside the mainstream) might consider this = finding to=20 make a 'prima facie case' that red-shift is NOT an accurate measure of = distance,=20 and that there is a very strong gravitational component to = redshift, and by=20 inference that *everything*... well, if that is so great=20 an exaggeration lets say: __almost everything which science = now=20 assumes about the age and dynamics of our universe is=20 incorrect__   that the universe may NOT be expanding at all, = and=20 certainly not in an inflationary manner, and furthermore, that there is = no=20 necessity for a "big bang" at all, from a re-evaluation of the=20 evidence. 
 
A sequential succession of "little bangs" fits the evidence better = (in=20 size, each would be the extent of our "Virgo supercluster," for = instance,=20 which was our particular "little bang").
 
Is the preceding analysis (of the "#1 neglected science news story = of the=20 past decade") is the iconoclastic conclusion just the raving = hyperbole of a=20 professional iconoclast? ... perhaps, but if it were not so = shocking...=20 especially to the career status of so-called=20 experts, maybe it would be considered an understatement, = as much=20 more could be made of this finding (including a "cover-up"), = because....
 
We have actually known details about several of these red-shift = "anomalies"=20 for at least 20 years, maybe longer, but they have been consistently = pushed=20 aside by the professional mainstream of cosmology as something akin to=20 "measurement error" (sound familiar, vortexians?). This is because = the=20 implications of them being accurate are not just "unsettling," they are=20 absolutely devastating to the majority viewpoint. Now that firm and = undeniable=20 proof is beginning to accumulate, to the stage that it can no = longer be=20 censored and held in abeyance, and it is starting to leak-out = around=20 the seams.... when will the dam break?
 
In the meantime, readers of vortex will probably be among the few = on the=20 fringes of science who really appreciate the impact of this coming=20 "icononclash"... as a similar situation is also ongoing in the=20 alternative fields which they follow most intently. Note to mention = past=20 high level cover-ups.
 
Jones
 
P.S. Wouldn't it be nice if both levels of "icononclashes" = were to=20 transpire and resolve themselves simultaneously against the mainstream = ...
i.e. the macro and the micro both overturning prior "laws"...
 
What could be going here in the "big picture" that so = much=20 iconoclasm is in the offing in so many different areas,?   ... = ahem...=20 can you spell "quickening"... ("Aquarians" from the late 60s can, but = they got=20 their timing off by two-score, apparently)
 
"quickening"
noun:
1) the first motion of a fetus in the uterus felt by the mother = near the=20 middle of the period of gestation
 2) the process of showing signs of life or vigor ;
3) the act of accelerating; increasing speed or opening of new=20 horizons.
 
NOTE to John Fields... is it time to upgrade (downgrade?) your "big = bang"=20 simulator to focus on "little bangs" ... <G> 
 
 
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_0049_01C506A9.F496F260-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 30 10:03:24 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0UI34Zj009958; Sun, 30 Jan 2005 10:03:04 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0UI32U1009935; Sun, 30 Jan 2005 10:03:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 10:03:02 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: A question for the electrochemists X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: ID = 7b84137320e539ae3bcf255acd0b8dbd Reply-To: michael.foster excite.com From: "Michael Foster" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: michael.foster excite.com X-Mailer: PHP Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050130180254.9BAEC3DCE xprdmailfe6.nwk.excite.com> Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 13:02:54 -0500 (EST) Resent-Message-ID: <1Wh_0D.A.LbC.VFS_BB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57420 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: But Robin, that's exactly the point. Unless you reduce the potassium ions to metal, at least temporarily, you will achieve no concentration of potassium ions at the cathode any higher than that of the whole of the electrolyte. Otherwise, as far as I can see, no manipulation of voltage, current density, electrolyte concentration, temperature, etc., will achieve your goal. You might try something like those experiments where they use a high enough voltage to cause arcing between the cathode and the electrolyte, but I suspect this isn't what you have in mind. Say, isn't Ed Storms an electrochemist? Maybe he could help out a bit here. How about it Ed? M. ===================================================== --- On Sun 01/30, Robin van Spaandonk < rvanspaa bigpond.net.au > wrote: Hi Michael, [snip] > >It's pretty simple. The potassium metal created at the >interface between the electrolyte and the Hg cathode is >amalgamated and drops below the suface where it is >protected from oxidation. Thanks, but the point isn't to create potassium metal. The point is to maximise the production *rate* of potassium atoms, irrespective of how long they last once they have been produced. [snip] _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 30 10:39:31 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0UIdIZj024629; Sun, 30 Jan 2005 10:39:19 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0UIdG2b024617; Sun, 30 Jan 2005 10:39:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 10:39:16 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Mark S Bilk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Question Re Energy Released Per Hydrino Level Increment -was- Britz: ,,, Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 10:35:59 -0800 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.28] Content-Type: text/plain MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <0501301039080I.30586 isis> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57421 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In-Reply-To: On Sun, Jan 30, 2005 at 04:29:47PM +1100, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >When H[n=1/3 (or more)] is formed from H, a total of 108.8 eV >is liberated. Of this, 54.4 eV goes to the catalyst, leaving >54.4 eV either in the form of UV, or as kinetic energy of the >hydrino. This change is from n = 0 to n = 1/2, and n = 1/2 to n = 1/3. So each incremental change in hydrino "level" -- i.e., change of n from 1/k to 1/(k+1) -- liberates 54 ev. I thought 27.2 ev is liberated for each hydrino level increase from n = 0 to n = 1/2, or n = 1/k to n = 1/(k+1), where k > 1. But you're saying that the catalyst gets 27.2 ev per level increase and the hydrino, or a UV photon, also gets 27.2 ev. >by the time n gets to e.g. n=1/10, a drop of 2 levels, >such as would be catalyzed by O++, to n=1/12, results in an >energy release of 598 eV, ... >(For n=1/120 -> n=1/122 this is 6582 eV according to Mills). You're saying that the drop from n = 1/10 to n = 1/12 produces 598 ev, or 299 ev per level increment, and n=1/120 to n=1/122 produces 3291 ev per level increment! I thought the energy released for each increase in hydrino level was the same, 27.2 ev -- at least this is the amount that the catalyst has to absorb -- for any change of n = 1/k to n = 1/(k+1). But if the energy released per level increment increases at greater levels, then the original catalysts would only work for the first few levels. What kind of catalyst would absorb 299 ev or 3291 ev? What is the formula for energy released for an incremental hydrino level increase, at a given level? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 30 11:18:58 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0UJIjZj006158; Sun, 30 Jan 2005 11:18:46 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0UJIgkf006132; Sun, 30 Jan 2005 11:18:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 11:18:42 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050130191550.00694858 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 19:15:50 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Cosmo-Icono-clash Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57422 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 08:59 am 30-01-05 -0800, you wrote: >"Iconoclastic" - >Adj. Characterized by attack on the established belief structure or the institutions which uphold it. > >How can a nearby spiral galaxy contain a quasar whose light spectrum indicates that it is billions of light years away? > >It cannot if the normal, and almost universally held, assumptions on which our "mainstream cosmological paradigm" have based for the past 50 years - are correct. > >But it can and they are not. > >One of many such stories: >http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/01/050111115201.htm > >Some few observers (outside the mainstream) might consider this finding to make a 'prima facie case' that red-shift is NOT an accurate measure of distance, and that there is a very strong gravitational component to redshift, and by inference that *everything*... well, if that is so great an exaggeration lets say: __almost everything which science now assumes about the age and dynamics of our universe is incorrect__ that the universe may NOT be expanding at all, and certainly not in an inflationary manner, and furthermore, that there is no necessity for a "big bang" at all, from a re-evaluation of the evidence. > >A sequential succession of "little bangs" fits the evidence better (in size, each would be the extent of our "Virgo supercluster," for instance, which was our particular "little bang"). > >Is the preceding analysis (of the "#1 neglected science news story of the past decade") is the iconoclastic conclusion just the raving hyperbole of a professional iconoclast? ... perhaps, but if it were not so shocking... especially to the career status of so-called experts, maybe it would be considered an understatement, as much more could be made of this finding (including a "cover-up"), because.... > >We have actually known details about several of these red-shift "anomalies" for at least 20 years, maybe longer, but they have been consistently pushed aside by the professional mainstream of cosmology as something akin to "measurement error" (sound familiar, vortexians?). This is because the implications of them being accurate are not just "unsettling," they are absolutely devastating to the majority viewpoint. Now that firm and undeniable proof is beginning to accumulate, to the stage that it can no longer be censored and held in abeyance, and it is starting to leak-out around the seams.... when will the dam break? > >In the meantime, readers of vortex will probably be among the few on the fringes of science who really appreciate the impact of this coming "icononclash"... as a similar situation is also ongoing in the alternative fields which they follow most intently. Note to mention past high level cover-ups. > >Jones Interesting - and now for a bit of name dropping - ;^) I remember corresponding with Halton Arp after Clayton and I read his fascinating book on this subject some 20 years or so ago - I seem to remember he was then working in Germany. I even carried out a mathematical analysis on the probability of his "lines of quasars" having a statistically significant alignment. I'm glad to see that his discoveries are finally getting through to the astronomical establishment. About ruddy time, too!!! Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 30 11:46:46 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0UJkWZj018294; Sun, 30 Jan 2005 11:46:32 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0UJkTSl018269; Sun, 30 Jan 2005 11:46:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 11:46:29 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 14:44:27 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: Cosmo-Icono-clash In-reply-to: <2.2.32.20050130191550.00694858 pop.freeserve.net> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57423 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I am not committed to big bang cosmology, but are there any non-big bang theories which predict the observed 2.7K cosmic background radiation? Harry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 30 11:55:14 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0UJsxZj020911; Sun, 30 Jan 2005 11:55:00 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0UJsv6s020885; Sun, 30 Jan 2005 11:54:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 11:54:57 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 14:52:57 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Cosmic oddity casts doubt on theory of universe To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j0UJssZj020837 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57424 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The Globe and Mail Cosmic oddity casts doubt on theory of universe By DAN FALK UPDATED AT 2:50 PM EST Saturday, Jan 29, 2005 A new analysis of the "echo" of the Big Bang has left cosmologists scratching their heads and could throw a monkey wrench into efforts to understand how the universe began. U.S. and European scientists analyzed the distribution of "hot" and "cold" regions -- areas that are putting out greater or less amounts of energy than the average -- of the cosmic microwave background radiation (the so-called echo). What they found was unexpected: an apparent correlation between those hot and cold spots and the orientation and motion of our solar system. "All of this is mysterious," says Glenn Starkman, a Canadian physicist based at Case Western Reserve University in Cleveland and one of the authors of a recent paper in Physical Review Letters that outlined the finding. "And the strange thing is, the more you delve into it, the more mysteries you find." The study, by Case Western scientists and the European Centre for Nuclear Research in Geneva, is based on data from the WMAP satellite, the NASA spacecraft that began mapping the cosmic microwave background (CMB) radiation in fine detail in 2001. The observed correlation is troubling on several fronts. First of all, there is no reason to believe that the finding reflects any physical connection between our local astronomical neighbourhood and the universe at large. As Dr. Starkman puts it: "None of us believe that the universe knows about the solar system, or that the solar system knows about the universe." Far more plausible, he says, is that something within our solar system is producing or absorbing microwaves. That means that anyone doing cosmology would have to take into account such "local" contamination. (The correlation involves the largest-scale fluctuations of the CMB radiation. If some of those fluctuations are a local rather than a cosmological phenomenon, it would mean that the truly cosmological large-scale fluctuations are even less intense than previously thought.) There is, however, another possibility: The patterns seen by Dr. Starkman and his colleagues might simply be a fluke -- an accidental alignment between the solar system and patterns in the CMB radiation. If the correlation is real, however, it could cast doubt on the popular "inflation" model of the early universe. That model, which builds on the well-established Big Bang theory, says the universe underwent a period of incredibly rapid, exponential growth in the first split-second of its existence. One of its predictions is that the universe should be nearly perfectly "smooth," that the CMB fluctuations should be equally intense at all scales. An analogy with a musical instrument can be helpful: If you hit a drum, you hear many tones at the same time -- a primary tone as well as many overtones, or "harmonics." The inflation model predicts that all the overtones in the CMB should be equally intense, but instead "we're missing the bass," Dr. Starkman says. "And what bass there is seems to be not generated by the universe, but by something local." Other physicists are responding with caution to the finding. "There is no way to judge the real significance of such a result," says Charles Bennett of NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center in Greenbelt, Md., the leader of the WMAP team. It all depends on how we perceive "chance," and how we evaluate probabilities, Dr. Bennett says. The alignments seen in the CMB may seem unlikely, he says, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they require new physics to explain them. He points out that "improbable things happen frequently because there are lots of opportunities for them to occur." In other words, he says, the newly discovered CMB correlations are most likely the product of chance. Dan Falk is a science journalist based in Toronto.    © 2005 Bell Globemedia Publishing Inc. All Rights Reserved. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 30 12:12:11 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0UKBwZj027059; Sun, 30 Jan 2005 12:11:59 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0UKBucA027037; Sun, 30 Jan 2005 12:11:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 12:11:56 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: Message-ID: <007901c50707$ecf4d140$c559ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <2.2.32.20050130191550.00694858 pop.freeserve.net> Subject: Message for Peter Gluck Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 14:54:32 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57425 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Peter, I have been receiving your messages. I have sent several to you in the last week. Mike From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 30 12:55:05 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0UKsrZj009919; Sun, 30 Jan 2005 12:54:53 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0UKsp33009904; Sun, 30 Jan 2005 12:54:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 12:54:51 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <006201c5070d$359120c0$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" References: Subject: Re: Cosmo-Icono-clash Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 12:47:56 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57426 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Harry, "are there any non-big bang theories which predict the observed 2.7K cosmic background radiation? Many. You mention the fringes of one theory, which is just now emerging, in your second post. To the contrary of what they state in that piece, there is adequate if not convincing reason to believe that the findings (which are not new, but from the 2001/2002 WMAP survey) reflect a definite physical connection between our local astronomical neighborhood (Virgo supercluster) and the universe at large by way of interstellar protons. Halton Arp, who Frank refers to, has suggested several other explanations. Many of these intertwine at some level. All are incomplete, but so is the connection to a big bang. The fit there is fairly poor, actually, if you look at the actual numbers. My favorite part of the expanded explanation, which Frank will like, is that CMB radiation is a relic of current and ongoing, not past, beta-aether interaction with interstellar hydrogen. It is NOT an ancient relic of anything, but instead it is a pointer of where to look for ZPE, not only in "local" cosmology (if our supercluster can be considered local) but in the very-local environment of earth (since ZPE is also dependent on of an aether and probably is active at the same frequencies here as "out there"). Where is that you ask? As I have suggested several times in the past, a 21 cm wavelength and 1420 Mhz would be a good place to start, if CMB is indeed somehow related to a "particulate" of aether in the vicinity of our solar system. If you are into Fourier transforms and power laws, then this frequency may point to another more active frequency locally. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 30 12:58:13 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0UKvrZj011274; Sun, 30 Jan 2005 12:57:57 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0UKvpSx011252; Sun, 30 Jan 2005 12:57:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 12:57:51 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <41FD4A15.2030709 cox.net> Disposition-Notification-To: "Hoyt A. Stearns Jr." Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 13:56:53 -0700 From: "Hoyt A. Stearns Jr." Organization: ISUS User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Cosmo-Icono-clash References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57427 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dewey Larson's Reciprocal System shows it as a necessary consequence, as well as gamma ray bursts and cosmic rays: http://www.reciprocalsystem.com/rs/cwkvk/index.htm http://www.rstheory.com/ No big bang. No black holes. No gravity waves. No magnetic monopoles. Hoyt Stearns Scottsdale, Arizona Harry Veeder wrote: >I am not committed to big bang cosmology, but are there any non-big bang >theories which predict the observed 2.7K cosmic background radiation? > >Harry > > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 30 13:21:12 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0ULKsZj020316; Sun, 30 Jan 2005 13:20:55 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0ULKoVi020286; Sun, 30 Jan 2005 13:20:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 13:20:50 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Mark S Bilk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Question Re Energy Released Per Hydrino Level Increment Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 13:15:53 -0800 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.28] Content-Type: text/plain MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <0501301320370J.30586 isis> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57428 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In-Reply-To: <0501301039080I.30586 isis> OK, I think I've found answers to some of my questions, but not others, and I've got some new ones, too. Choosing a Mills paper at random -- "Formation of a Hydrogen Plasma from an Incandescently Heated Hydrogen-Catalyst Gas Mixture with an Anomalous Afterglow Duration" - H_Plasma1.pdf -- he writes first of all that n = 1 for the ground state, not 0, so I was wrong about that, and also: hydrino atom binding energy = 13.6 ev / n^2 where n = 1/2, 1/3, 1/4, ... 1/p Thus binding energy = 13.6 ev * p^2 So the difference in binding energy between n = 1/p and n = 1/(p+1) would be: 13.6 ev * ((p + 1)^2 - p^2) = 13.6 (2p + 1) Mills writes that the transition from n = 1 to n = 1/2 gives 40.8 ev. This would be p = 1 in the formula, 13.6 * 3, which does equal 40.8 . The change from n = 1/10 to 1/11 plus 1/11 to 1/12 would give: 13.6 * (2 * 10 + 1 + 2 * 11 + 1) = 598.4 ev and from 1/120 to 1/122: 13.6 * (2 * 120 + 1 + 2 * 121 + 1) = 6582.4 ev exactly as Robin wrote. I guess this also explains Jones Beene's recent remark: BTW, if one wished to maximize hydrino "manufacture" then it would seem that a combination of both Rb, K and Sr electrolytes would be an improvement as they cover different IP ranges. Since you need to get to the first stage quickly, I would suggest that half or more of the mole% be Rb hydroxide. since various hydrino level increases require catalysts that absorb different amounts of energy. This still leaves the questions of: 1. How are deeper hydrino level transitions catalyzed, since chemical catalysts can't absorb hundreds or thousands of ev, and many-body collisions are too improbable? If it's hydrinos catalyzing other hydrinos, does this release any net energy? 2. What determines the partition of the liberated energy between the catalyst and the hydrino or UV photon? This would be very important, because if the catalyst only absorbs part of the released energy, the fraction it absorbs determines the size of the electron-energy transition that it has to possess, and thus which elements or molecules are eligible as catalysts. Or does the catalyst absorb all of the energy and then give some back to the hydrino and/or UV photon? 3. And on another subject, the HSG FAQ says: "Being extremely light, [hydrinos] rapidly float up into the atmosphere and diffuse into space." But since a hydrino is much smaller than a normal H atom, and still weighs 1 amu, wouldn't it be very dense and (since it is so tiny) tend to fall toward the center of the Earth? 4. Also, are hydrinos toxic? Deuterium is (mildly). If we can create a practical hydrino power generator, will it be necessary to trap and store the hydrinos to keep them from contaminating the ground water? 5. If so, will the hydrino storage tanks blow up some day from cross-hydrino reactions, or even turn into fusion bombs if the hydrinos get small enough to approach the nuclei of other atoms or each other within reach of the strong nuclear force? Which is my favorite theory of cold fusion and transmutation, because it's simple enough that I can understand it! 8^) Mark On Sun, Jan 30, 2005 at 10:35:59AM -0800, Mark S Bilk wrote: >In-Reply-To: >On Sun, Jan 30, 2005 at 04:29:47PM +1100, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > >>When H[n=1/3 (or more)] is formed from H, a total of 108.8 eV >>is liberated. Of this, 54.4 eV goes to the catalyst, leaving >>54.4 eV either in the form of UV, or as kinetic energy of the >>hydrino. > >This change is from n = 0 to n = 1/2, and n = 1/2 to n = 1/3. >So each incremental change in hydrino "level" -- i.e., change >of n from 1/k to 1/(k+1) -- liberates 54 ev. > >I thought 27.2 ev is liberated for each hydrino level increase >from n = 0 to n = 1/2, or n = 1/k to n = 1/(k+1), where k > 1. > >But you're saying that the catalyst gets 27.2 ev per level >increase and the hydrino, or a UV photon, also gets 27.2 ev. > >>by the time n gets to e.g. n=1/10, a drop of 2 levels, >>such as would be catalyzed by O++, to n=1/12, results in an >>energy release of 598 eV, ... > >>(For n=1/120 -> n=1/122 this is 6582 eV according to Mills). > >You're saying that the drop from n = 1/10 to n = 1/12 produces >598 ev, or 299 ev per level increment, and n=1/120 to n=1/122 >produces 3291 ev per level increment! > >I thought the energy released for each increase in hydrino level >was the same, 27.2 ev -- at least this is the amount that the >catalyst has to absorb -- for any change of n = 1/k to n = 1/(k+1). > >But if the energy released per level increment increases at >greater levels, then the original catalysts would only work for >the first few levels. What kind of catalyst would absorb 299 ev >or 3291 ev? > >What is the formula for energy released for an incremental >hydrino level increase, at a given level? > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 30 13:38:56 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0ULcXZj027205; Sun, 30 Jan 2005 13:38:35 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0ULcS40027107; Sun, 30 Jan 2005 13:38:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 13:38:28 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Cosmo-Icono-clash X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: ID = 7b84137320e539ae3bcf255acd0b8dbd Reply-To: michael.foster excite.com From: "Michael Foster" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: michael.foster excite.com X-Mailer: PHP Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050130213808.4B5BB3DD6 xprdmailfe6.nwk.excite.com> Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 16:38:08 -0500 (EST) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57429 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Harry Veeder wrote: >I am not committed to big bang cosmology, but are there any non-big bang >theories which predict the observed 2.7K cosmic background radiation? > >Harry Actually, the prediction of the the big bang theory was a 25K background, but what's a 20-odd K discrepancy between friends? I have long believed that the big bang theory is utter B.S. In a recent post I pointed out that the observation of galaxies at between 8 and 11 billion light years away revealed that these galaxies looked to be the same age as those much closer. To me, this was just the final nail in the coffin of this nonsense theory, an attempt by drama-inclined scientists as an alternative creation myth. In other words, it's just a religion substitute. How about this for a probably not-too-original alternate hypothesis? As light travels through the recently discovered dark matter/energy, it loses energy, therefore red shifting its wavelength. The energy is given up to said dark matter/energy which is then re-radiated as microwaves. This also explains a little-discussed problem with the the big bang theory, that of a slight doppler broadening of the red-shifted spectral lines. Of course, scientists are hardly ever dissuaded of their pet theories by inconvenient facts. They just usually die first. M. _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 30 14:43:00 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0UMgkZj020291; Sun, 30 Jan 2005 14:42:46 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0UMghks020253; Sun, 30 Jan 2005 14:42:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 14:42:43 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Britz: Not enough gas to cause explosion? Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 09:42:29 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050127165422.02ae4ec0@pop.mindspring.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050128103514.02a8a2f8@pop.mindspring.com> <003b01c50554$b37c80c0$d0bcfea9@jonesb9pacbell> <41FA6AC7.10203@ix.netcom.com> <00f601c5060a$61edc820$186f53d8@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <41FBBF83.6010003@ix.netcom.com> <41FC59D5.4070603@ix.netcom.com> <41FD13E5.8070803@ix.netcom.com> In-Reply-To: <41FD13E5.8070803 ix.netcom.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j0UMgcZj020169 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57430 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Edmund Storms's message of Sun, 30 Jan 2005 10:05:41 -0700: Hi, [snip] >Nuclear weapons produce so much radiation that all molecules near the >device are decomposed into atoms and ions, which occupy a much larger >volume. In addition, the energy density is huge. [snip] Precisely. >> So the O++ is reconstituted after use. The only problem is to reuse it before it captures another electron and becomes O+. >> >> >The window of time during which oxygen has the correct charge would seem >to be rather short. I guess it is a matter of intuition whether the time >is too short for sufficient O++ to be present. I think it's more a matter of what else is present that it can collide with before it comes into contact with H, and what the result of that collision will be. In a stoichiometric mix of H and O, there will be twice as many H as O atoms, so a lone O++ is twice as likely to come in contact with H as it is with an O atom. Of course there is also the competing reaction: H + O++ -> H+ + O+ and it's anybody's guess what the ratio of the two reaction rates is. Of course pre-existing hydrinos in the plasma will shift the balance in favour of a shrinkage reaction, because the O percentage is decreased, and also because when O++ reacts with a hydrino rather than with H, there is no competing reaction. Shrinkage is the only game in town. This means that once shrinkage has started, there is practically speaking no real way back. [snip] >> What I am trying to make clear here, is that once shrinkage has progressed far enough, the reaction can be self-sustaining, even though the production of O++ is not very efficient, simply because the inefficiency is out weighed by the energy excess from the reaction. >> >OK, I understand. Presumably the reaction proceeds until all of the >accumulated hydrinos are used up. Yes, or the cell blows itself apart, and puts and end to the process. In which case, there should still be a supply of severely shrunken hydrinos bound to the walls/electrodes, which is why I suggested that it might be possible to replicate using the remains of the shattered cell/electrodes. [snip] >I don't understand how the hydrinos can accumulate in the glass. Hydrinos can bind an extra electron to become hydrinohydride (H*-). This is essentially a very small negative ion. The second electron can be very tightly bound to the hydrino (up to 70 eV binding energy according to Mills). Because this ion is very small, it can snuggle up very close to a positive ion, which in turn implies a high binding energy between the two. To give an idea of what this means, O-- ions bind very tightly to metal ions because they are relatively small, which is why oxides generally have high melting points. The H*- ion if much smaller than O--, and hence should sit closer to a metal ion than even O--, implying a much stronger bond. These substances could have melting points of tens to hundreds of thousands of degrees. Consequently H*- could easily be bound to Si++++ or Na+ in the glass, displacing O--. This bond would be so strong that no amount of scrubbing and no solvent would remove it. Essentially it would be stronger than the glass itself. This same reasoning applies equally to the electrodes. [snip] >Even >if they were in the glass, why and how would they suddenly come out into >the solution? The extraction process requires a threshold energy. Below the threshold, nothing happens, which is why cleaning has no effect. Because of the strength of the bond, it takes a very energetic process to free them, however hydrino shrinkage provides just such energies. IOW shrinkage reactions taking place in the plasma can supply the energy required to free the H*- from its bound position in the lattice. Once free, O+++ will remove the electron from H*-, provided that the binding energy of the second electron doesn't exceed 54 eV. The H* thus provided, is then free to undergo further shrinkage. [snip] > material attached to the glass would not be expected. Your model >needs a significant source of hydrinos that have accumulated over a >period of time, which can quickly enter the water at a particular time >and react. How does this occur and why the sudden release? Please see above. However the plasma required has to start somewhere. The initial trigger may be a cosmic ray or a random fusion event occurring in the lattice, between an "embedded" H*- and the metal atom to which it is bound. Because of the mass and size of H*-, it's even possible that these particles actually orbit the nucleus of the metal atoms inside the K shell, effectively displacing a K shell electron during the binding process. This is a closer analogy to the muonic molecule. From such an orbit, it is only a matter of time before a fusion reaction occurs. Naturally such reactions would have a characteristic half life, depending on the metal atom in question, and the shrinkage level of the H*-. The fusion reaction probably produces ionising radiation. Ionising radiation can create a small localized plasma, which can grow according to the model previously described, provided that it is adjacent to a surface containing bound H*-. [snip] >> See comments above re. nuclear weapons. >Yes, but the issue of magnitude is the essential difference. A nuclear >weapon affects every molecule near it. The reactions you describe are on >an local atomic scale. True, but the energy release can be several orders of magnitude greater than normal chemical reactions, and the products of the reaction are high energy products (i.e. tens to thousands of eV each), so massive disruption of water molecules is certain. IOW the same MO, but on a smaller scale. We are looking at a plasma temperature possibly as high as 100 eV, which is equivalent to nearly 800,000 K. All of this leads me to infer that O++ is an excellent Mills catalyst, but that it operates best in a temperature range that is rarely attained in our everyday world. However, once a high energy trigger event occurs that locally elevates the temperature into that range, it really shines. ;) One last comment I would make. Improving the containment strength of the cell may just result in a more powerful bomb. Next time, the results may be deadly. I would opt for a weak cell surrounded by a strong containment with a large air gap between the two. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 30 14:44:33 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0UMiOZj020995; Sun, 30 Jan 2005 14:44:24 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0UMiLSP020973; Sun, 30 Jan 2005 14:44:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 14:44:21 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick+highsurf.com mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <41FD13E5.8070803 ix.netcom.com> References: <01cf01c504b1$1bf01ad0$ea49ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> <6.2.0.14.2.20050127165422.02ae4ec0 pop.mindspring.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050128103514.02a8a2f8 pop.mindspring.com> <003b01c50554$b37c80c0$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> <41FA6AC7.10203 ix.netcom.com> <00f601c5060a$61edc820$186f53d8 MIKEBY3NR533HT> <41FBBF83.6010003 ix.netcom.com> <41FC59D5.4070603 ix.netcom.com> <41FD13E5.8070803 ix.netcom.com> Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 12:43:39 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Britz: Not enough gas to cause explosion? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57431 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The hydraulic transmission of a sharp shock does seem to satisfy in the face of the impressive pattern of the shattered bottom of the beaker, and from what I recall a stoichiometric mix of H & O2 has a pretty sharp brisance when ignited. A cherry bomb won't harm a toilet at all unless it's deep enough underwater so that pressure/shock release can't be quickly relieved by raising the water above it. Don't ask me why I know anything about this, I'm sworn to secrecy even though it was a long time ago. So the less gas there is confined in the system to act as a shock absorber, the more brittle or susceptible to shock it would be, and rather small shocks appear to magnify through hydraulic force distribution. The efficient conversion of explosive energy to momentum in the system could account for the destruction of the outer chamber and the high velocity of the shards even beyond the chamber. Since the event seemed to develop 'slowly' at first, how about this - a bubble of H & O2 did develop and ignite, but in a burn still slow and/or small enough to be mechanically absorbed by the system. As the fuel was consumed, then - perhaps even synchronously with a returning shock wave from the walls of the vessel from the initial burn - the bubble collapses down against the site of reactions on the screen, causing a tiny supernova. - R. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 30 15:38:34 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0UNc6Zj006319; Sun, 30 Jan 2005 15:38:07 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0UNboGm006166; Sun, 30 Jan 2005 15:37:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 15:37:50 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 18:35:51 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: Cosmo-Icono-clash In-reply-to: <20050130213808.4B5BB3DD6 xprdmailfe6.nwk.excite.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57432 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michael Foster at michael.foster excite.com wrote: > > Harry Veeder wrote: > >> I am not committed to big bang cosmology, but are there any non-big bang >> theories which predict the observed 2.7K cosmic background radiation? >> >> Harry > > > Actually, the prediction of the the big bang theory was a 25K background, but > what's a 20-odd K discrepancy between friends? > I have long believed that the big bang theory is utter B.S. > > In a recent post I pointed out that the observation of galaxies > at between 8 and 11 billion light years away revealed that these > galaxies looked to be the same age as those much closer. To me, > this was just the final nail in the coffin of this nonsense > theory, an attempt by drama-inclined scientists as an alternative > creation myth. In other words, it's just a religion substitute. > > How about this for a probably not-too-original alternate hypothesis? > As light travels through the recently discovered dark matter/energy, > it loses energy, therefore red shifting its wavelength. The energy > is given up to said dark matter/energy which is then re-radiated > as microwaves. This also explains a little-discussed problem with > the the big bang theory, that of a slight doppler broadening of the > red-shifted spectral lines. Of course, scientists are hardly ever > dissuaded of their pet theories by inconvenient facts. They just > usually die first. > > M. Sounds plausible. You could call it the the Big Warming. ;-) Harry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 30 15:41:27 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0UNeuZj007781; Sun, 30 Jan 2005 15:40:57 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0UNedDa007691; Sun, 30 Jan 2005 15:40:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 15:40:39 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 18:38:48 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: Cosmo-Icono-clash In-reply-to: <41FD4A15.2030709 cox.net> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57433 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Thanks for the link. I had not heard of Dewey Larson. Harry Hoyt A. Stearns Jr. at hoyt-stearns cox.net wrote: > Dewey Larson's Reciprocal System shows it as a necessary consequence, as > well as > gamma ray bursts and cosmic rays: > > http://www.reciprocalsystem.com/rs/cwkvk/index.htm > http://www.rstheory.com/ > > No big bang. > No black holes. > No gravity waves. > No magnetic monopoles. > > > Hoyt Stearns > Scottsdale, Arizona > > Harry Veeder wrote: > >> I am not committed to big bang cosmology, but are there any non-big bang >> theories which predict the observed 2.7K cosmic background radiation? >> >> Harry >> >> >> >> >> > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 30 16:06:56 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0V06iZj017393; Sun, 30 Jan 2005 16:06:45 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0V06f15017369; Sun, 30 Jan 2005 16:06:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 16:06:41 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "John Steck" To: Subject: RE: Vortex Web Site Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 18:07:17 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 In-Reply-To: <20050129175205.86799.qmail web51701.mail.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: <0XVK8C.A.QPE.QaX_BB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57434 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This guy must be a blast at parties... if you can look past all the blathering, there are some rather interesting/valuable links. Always nice to see Schauberger's work represented http://homepage.ntlworld.com/ufophysics/vsimplosion.htm -john -----Original Message----- From: Terry Blanton [mailto:terry1094 yahoo.com] Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2005 11:52 AM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Vortex Web Site If this dude isn't a subscriber here, he should be: http://www.vortexpluswater.com/free_thinking_and_free_energy.htm __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.2 - Release Date: 28-Jan-05 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 30 16:21:46 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0V0LWZj022178; Sun, 30 Jan 2005 16:21:33 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0V0LUZd022141; Sun, 30 Jan 2005 16:21:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 16:21:30 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "John Steck" To: Subject: RE: Physics website Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 18:22:03 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_003A_01C506F8.98C831C0" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 In-Reply-To: <000201c50662$3e01bc70$0500a8c0 nixlaptop> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57435 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003A_01C506F8.98C831C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Nice website... thanks for posting the link. -john -----Original Message----- From: Nick Palmer [mailto:nickp wynterwood.co.uk] Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2005 6:26 PM To: Vortex-L Subject: Physics website I came upon this website which seems to be capable of answering any obscure question about those areas you're not sure about... http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/physics/ ------=_NextPart_000_003A_01C506F8.98C831C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Nice=20 website... thanks for posting the link.
-john
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Nick Palmer=20 [mailto:nickp wynterwood.co.uk]
Sent: Saturday, January 29, = 2005 6:26=20 PM
To: Vortex-L
Subject: Physics=20 website

I came upon this website which seems to = be capable=20 of answering any obscure question about those areas you're not sure=20 about...
 
http://scienceworld.wol= fram.com/physics/
------=_NextPart_000_003A_01C506F8.98C831C0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 30 19:08:52 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0V38aZj028242; Sun, 30 Jan 2005 19:08:36 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0V38XkW028212; Sun, 30 Jan 2005 19:08:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 19:08:33 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Question Re Energy Released Per Hydrino Level Increment Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 14:07:54 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <0501301320370J.30586 isis> In-Reply-To: <0501301320370J.30586 isis> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j0V38PZj027950 Resent-Message-ID: <-TEevB.A.u4G.wEa_BB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57436 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Mark S Bilk's message of Sun, 30 Jan 2005 13:15:53 -0800: Hi, [snip] >This still leaves the questions of: > >1. How are deeper hydrino level transitions catalyzed, since >chemical catalysts can't absorb hundreds or thousands of ev, >and many-body collisions are too improbable? The same catalysts are used for the deeper levels, but if I'm not mistaken they may not work as well at those levels as they do at the higher levels. (This has to do with resonance as harmonics and sub-harmonics iso at the fundamental frequency). > >If it's hydrinos catalyzing other hydrinos, does this release >any net energy? Yes. See "disproportionation" in Mills' book. The reason is that higher levels release more energy per step than lower levels. > >2. What determines the partition of the liberated energy >between the catalyst and the hydrino or UV photon? > This is determined by the amount that the catalyst can absorb. Whatever is left is either radiated as a UV photon, or ends up as kinetic energy of the hydrino (or possibly some of each?). [snip] >Or does the catalyst absorb all of the energy and then give some >back to the hydrino and/or UV photon? No, the catalyst only gives back as a UV photon what it absorbed. > >3. And on another subject, the HSG FAQ says: > > "Being extremely light, [hydrinos] rapidly float up into the > atmosphere and diffuse into space." This statement from Mills is from the early days, before he came up with the hydrinohydride concept. IMO hydrinohydride ions ensure that this is irrelevant. The original statement referred to the fact that hydrinos would form a mon-atomic gas (like helium), but comprising lighter atoms, hence it would be the lightest gas known. > >But since a hydrino is much smaller than a normal H atom, and >still weighs 1 amu, wouldn't it be very dense and (since it is >so tiny) tend to fall toward the center of the Earth? No, you are forgetting about the space between the atoms. > >4. Also, are hydrinos toxic? Deuterium is (mildly). Probably. As the shrinkage level increases, the affinity for electrons also increases. To give an idea of what this means, Fluorine gas doesn't have anywhere near the electron affinity of heavily shrunken hydrinos, yet is extremely toxic. Heavily shrunken hydrinos would be chemically similar to the halogens. However to put this in context, by the time they are that dangerous, they have probably already stolen an electron from some other atom in their neighbourhood, forming hydrinohydride, which is then likely bound to a positive ion, rendering them essentially harmless. >If we can >create a practical hydrino power generator, will it be necessary >to trap and store the hydrinos to keep them from contaminating >the ground water? Probably not, see above, as they tend to be "self trapping". OTOH one would probably want to keep them anyway, because they are valuable, both for the new materials that may be made from them, and also for the energy that they can still produce. IMO any commercial device based on hydrinos will probably shrink them so far that they undergo fusion reactions, finally realising humanity's dream of cheap fusion power. > >5. If so, will the hydrino storage tanks blow up some day from >cross-hydrino reactions, or even turn into fusion bombs if the >hydrinos get small enough to approach the nuclei of other atoms >or each other within reach of the strong nuclear force? Which >is my favorite theory of cold fusion and transmutation, because >it's simple enough that I can understand it! 8^) Mine too, same reason! :) [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 30 19:14:28 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0V3E9Zj030800; Sun, 30 Jan 2005 19:14:09 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0V3E5j2030773; Sun, 30 Jan 2005 19:14:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 19:14:05 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Cosmic oddity casts doubt on theory of universe Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 14:13:47 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j0V3DpZj030653 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57437 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Harry Veeder's message of Sun, 30 Jan 2005 14:52:57 -0500: Hi, [snip] >U.S. and European scientists analyzed the distribution of "hot" and "cold" >regions -- areas that are putting out greater or less amounts of energy than >the average -- of the cosmic microwave background radiation (the so-called >echo). What they found was unexpected: an apparent correlation between those >hot and cold spots and the orientation and motion of our solar system. [snip] Would you believe that the proper motion of the solar system affects the perceived red shift? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 30 19:21:41 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0V3L5Zj001882; Sun, 30 Jan 2005 19:21:09 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0V3KxZ8001802; Sun, 30 Jan 2005 19:20:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 19:20:59 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: A question for the electrochemists Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 14:20:39 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <2n8rv09ptno9dnqneamdpsvsk9a99nv9b7 4ax.com> References: <20050130180254.9BAEC3DCE xprdmailfe6.nwk.excite.com> In-Reply-To: <20050130180254.9BAEC3DCE xprdmailfe6.nwk.excite.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j0V3KqZj001688 Resent-Message-ID: <-JpRcD.A.7b.YQa_BB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57438 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Michael Foster's message of Sun, 30 Jan 2005 13:02:54 -0500: Hi Michael, [snip] > > >But Robin, that's exactly the point. Unless you reduce the potassium ions to metal, at least temporarily, you will achieve no concentration of potassium ions at the cathode any higher than that of the whole of the electrolyte. That's fine by me. I'm not trying to increase the concentration of K+ ions anyway, just the rate at which they are processed. Perhaps the solution is to use a higher current and temperature? >Otherwise, as far as I can see, no manipulation of voltage, current density, electrolyte concentration, temperature, etc., will achieve your goal. That may be the answer I was looking for. > >You might try something like those experiments where they use a high enough voltage to cause arcing between the cathode and the electrolyte, but I suspect this isn't what you have in mind. Actually I was thinking along the lines of measures that are taken to enhance electroplating, primarily because I know almost nothing about the topic. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 30 19:31:43 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0V3V9Zj006587; Sun, 30 Jan 2005 19:31:14 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0V3V7nF006554; Sun, 30 Jan 2005 19:31:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 19:31:07 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Cosmo-Icono-clash Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 14:30:23 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <004c01c506ed$034fbba0$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> In-Reply-To: <004c01c506ed$034fbba0$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j0V3V0Zj006313 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57439 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jones Beene's message of Sun, 30 Jan 2005 08:59:07 -0800: Hi, [snip] >"Iconoclastic" - >Adj. Characterized by attack on the established belief structure or the institutions which uphold it. > >How can a nearby spiral galaxy contain a quasar whose light spectrum indicates that it is billions of light years away? > >It cannot if the normal, and almost universally held, assumptions on which our "mainstream cosmological paradigm" have based for the past 50 years - are correct. > >But it can and they are not. > >One of many such stories: >http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/01/050111115201.htm E. Margaret Burbidge is a sympathizer of Halton Arp, if I haven't misread "Seeing Red". :) Personally, I also tend to largely agree, though I'm not sure I back his theory of slowly increasing mass of matter as the primary cause of red shift. (Though it may be). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 30 19:38:52 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0V3cdZj009729; Sun, 30 Jan 2005 19:38:40 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0V3caq0009698; Sun, 30 Jan 2005 19:38:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 19:38:36 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Cosmo-Icono-clash Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 14:38:26 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <2.2.32.20050130191550.00694858 pop.freeserve.net> In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.20050130191550.00694858 pop.freeserve.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j0V3cUZj009601 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57440 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Grimer's message of Sun, 30 Jan 2005 19:15:50 +0000: Hi, [snip] >>Some few observers (outside the mainstream) might consider this finding to make a 'prima facie case' that red-shift is NOT an accurate measure of distance, and that there is a very strong gravitational component to redshift, and by inference that *everything*... well, if that is so great an exaggeration lets say: __almost everything which science now assumes about the age and dynamics of our universe is incorrect__ that the universe may NOT be expanding at all, and certainly not in an inflationary manner, and furthermore, that there is no necessity for a "big bang" at all, from a re-evaluation of the evidence. [snip] Another thing apparently never taken into account when using red shift is Compton effect scattering of photons off charged particles in the cold plasma surrounding stars. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 30 19:41:51 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0V3fcZj010895; Sun, 30 Jan 2005 19:41:38 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0V3fbv8010873; Sun, 30 Jan 2005 19:41:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 19:41:37 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Cosmo-Icono-clash Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 14:41:12 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <32arv0pp5cd50ukker110ojiive2092ij7 4ax.com> References: <2.2.32.20050130191550.00694858 pop.freeserve.net> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j0V3fUZj010748 Resent-Message-ID: <_FMiID.A.1pC.wja_BB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57441 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Harry Veeder's message of Sun, 30 Jan 2005 14:44:27 -0500: Hi, [snip] >I am not committed to big bang cosmology, but are there any non-big bang >theories which predict the observed 2.7K cosmic background radiation? > >Harry > IMO the 2.7 K is simply degraded starlight. After all, what happens to the thermal energy radiated by the planets, and interstellar dust and gas clouds? It is simply the temperature of the universe. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 30 20:23:02 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0V4MhZj030088; Sun, 30 Jan 2005 20:22:48 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0V4Mfsc030067; Sun, 30 Jan 2005 20:22:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 20:22:41 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001201c5074c$dbd2ee70$6400a8c0 VINCE> From: "Vince Cockeram" To: References: <0501301320370J.30586 isis> Subject: Re: Question Re Energy Released Per Hydrino Level Increment Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 20:25:13 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57442 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark S Bilk" To: Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2005 1:15 PM Subject: Re: Question Re Energy Released Per Hydrino Level Increment > In-Reply-To: <0501301039080I.30586 isis> > .. . . > > If it's hydrinos catalyzing other hydrinos, does this release > any net energy? > . . . . > Mark Dr. Mills does write about that here on page 9 of the document: http://www.blacklightpower.com/pdf/GUT/TOE%2002.10.03/Chapters/Chapter%20040%200105.pdf Vince Cockeram From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 30 21:07:08 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0V56pwk014726; Sun, 30 Jan 2005 21:06:55 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0V56lNd014705; Sun, 30 Jan 2005 21:06:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 21:06:47 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 00:04:25 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: Cosmo-Icono-clash In-reply-to: <32arv0pp5cd50ukker110ojiive2092ij7 4ax.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57443 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk at rvanspaa bigpond.net.au wrote: > In reply to Harry Veeder's message of Sun, 30 Jan 2005 14:44:27 -0500: > Hi, > [snip] >> I am not committed to big bang cosmology, but are there any non-big bang >> theories which predict the observed 2.7K cosmic background radiation? >> >> Harry >> > IMO the 2.7 K is simply degraded starlight. After all, what happens to the > thermal energy radiated by the planets, and interstellar dust and gas clouds? > It is simply the temperature of the universe. > Ok. Sounds similar to Michael Foster's suggestion. Harry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 30 21:12:44 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0V5CQwk016929; Sun, 30 Jan 2005 21:12:27 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0V5CNvZ016896; Sun, 30 Jan 2005 21:12:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 21:12:23 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 00:10:30 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: Cosmo-Icono-clash In-reply-to: <006201c5070d$359120c0$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57444 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Do these other theories imply the size of the observable universe is different as well? Harry Jones Beene at jonesb9 pacbell.net wrote: > Harry, > > "are there any non-big bang theories which predict the > observed 2.7K cosmic background radiation? > > Many. You mention the fringes of one theory, which is just > now emerging, in your second post. To the contrary of what > they state in that piece, there is adequate if not > convincing reason to believe that the findings (which are > not new, but from the 2001/2002 WMAP survey) reflect a > definite physical connection between our local astronomical > neighborhood (Virgo supercluster) and the universe at large > by way of interstellar protons. > > Halton Arp, who Frank refers to, has suggested several other > explanations. Many of these intertwine at some level. All > are incomplete, but so is the connection to a big bang. The > fit there is fairly poor, actually, if you look at the > actual numbers. > > My favorite part of the expanded explanation, which Frank > will like, is that CMB radiation is a relic of current and > ongoing, not past, beta-aether interaction with interstellar > hydrogen. It is NOT an ancient relic of anything, but > instead it is a pointer of where to look for ZPE, not only > in "local" cosmology (if our supercluster can be considered > local) but in the very-local environment of earth (since ZPE > is also dependent on of an aether and probably is active at > the same frequencies here as "out there"). > > Where is that you ask? As I have suggested several times in > the past, a 21 cm wavelength and 1420 Mhz would be a good > place to start, if CMB is indeed somehow related to a > "particulate" of aether in the vicinity of our solar system. > If you are into Fourier transforms and power laws, then this > frequency may point to another more active frequency > locally. > > Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 30 21:37:21 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0V5b5wk026210; Sun, 30 Jan 2005 21:37:06 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0V5b317026191; Sun, 30 Jan 2005 21:37:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 21:37:03 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 00:33:45 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: FW: Cosmic oddity casts doubt on theory of universe In-reply-to: To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57445 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The concluding remarks sound like they come from Douglas Adam's Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. LOL. Harry > Cosmic oddity casts doubt on theory of universe > > "There is no way to judge the real significance of such a result," says > Charles Bennett of NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center in Greenbelt, Md., the > leader of the WMAP team. > > It all depends on how we perceive "chance," and how we evaluate > probabilities, Dr. Bennett says. The alignments seen in the CMB may seem > unlikely, he says, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they require new > physics to explain them. > > He points out that "improbable things happen frequently because there are > lots of opportunities for them to occur." In other words, he says, the newly > discovered CMB correlations are most likely the product of chance. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 31 01:32:05 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0V9VpcU015691; Mon, 31 Jan 2005 01:31:55 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0V9Vnpf015666; Mon, 31 Jan 2005 01:31:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 01:31:49 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 00:40:49 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Accident Report from Mizuno Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57447 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 9:22 AM 1/26/5, Jed Rothwell wrote: [snip] >The >cell was placed inside a constant temperature air-cooled incubator (Yamato >1L-6) with the outer door open, and the inner Plexiglas safety door closed. At 3:35 PM 1/26/5, Jed Rothwell wrote: [snip] > ...I thought people here >might want to see the high-resolution digital photograph of the accident. >It is uploaded here: > >http://www.lenr-canr.org/images/MizunoAccident.JPG [snip] >... See the figures and >sketches in: > > [snip] It appears the explosion may well have been ignited in the flask, but the main energy from the explosion came from the top interior of the Yamato 1L-6 incubator. It looks like the explosive force was primarily downward, and the overpressure on the conical cap on the flask blew the flask apart in radial directions, leaving the base cracked but in leaving it place. It looks like the base of the flask may be stuck (by prior heating) to the polypropylene insulation underneath it. Assuming the plastic door was not blown to pieces, the overpressure was clearly enough to blow open the plastic door before the glass shards went through the open door. This indicates the overpressure hit the door before the flask pieces. The source of the blast pressure that opened the plastic door was therefore not inside the flask, but rather probably coming from the top of the 1L-6 downward. One has to wonder if there was a long run at a somewhat earlier time, but not more than a few days prior to starting the demonstration for the visitor. From the pdf experiment description it appears the hydrogen from the flask is ultimately dumped into the interior of the 1L-6, even if/when the generated gas volume is being measured. There are clearly various spaces in the 1L-6 that could trap an H2-O2 mixture, even if the door were opened for a while for access to the experiment. Upon closing the plastic door and leaving the experiment sit, any residual H2 in semi-confined spaces (e.g. cloth, instrument boxes, etc.) in the 1L-6 would eventually tend to diffuse toward the top of the 1L-6. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 31 04:42:40 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0VCgPSQ016846; Mon, 31 Jan 2005 04:42:29 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0VCgNq8016825; Mon, 31 Jan 2005 04:42:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 04:42:23 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050131123926.006aedb8 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 12:39:26 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Cosmic oddity casts doubt on theory of universe Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57448 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 02:13 pm 31-01-05 +1100, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >> U.S. and European scientists analyzed the distribution of "hot" and "cold" >> regions -- areas that are putting out greater or less amounts of energy than >> the average -- of the cosmic microwave background radiation (the so-called >> echo). What they found was unexpected: an apparent correlation between those >> hot and cold spots and the orientation and motion of our solar system. >[snip] >Would you believe that the proper motion of the solar system affects the perceived red shift? > >Regards, > >Robin van Spaandonk =============================================================================== I certainly would. 8-) Cheers Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 31 07:24:54 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0VFOUSQ024736; Mon, 31 Jan 2005 07:24:35 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0VFO6RV024329; Mon, 31 Jan 2005 07:24:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 07:24:06 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002501c507a8$27f51340$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "Colin Quinney" , References: <07c201c50759$314ada00$4b01a8c0@colin5fc9e2583> Subject: Re: Cosmic oddity casts doubt on theory of universe Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 07:17:50 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57449 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Colin et al. And that in turn reminds of that tid-bit from Monte Python's Galaxy Song: "Pray that there's intelligent somewhere up in space Because there's bugger all down here on Earth". > > The concluding remarks sound like they come from Douglas Adam's Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy.... > >> He points out that "improbable things happen frequently because there are lots of opportunities for them to occur." Whoa.... you can bet this poor bugger now cringes to read that he was quoted as saying "improbable things happen frequently because there are lots of opportunities for them to occur." A yogism, par excellence...to his colleagues he is likely now exculpating that the press misquoted him. I'm not sure that even Cleese & Co could provide "le mot juste" for that bit of confused rhetoric. What about: ... from Yogi, the master of double-speak (bubble-speak) .... "It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future." "We made too many wrong mistakes." "You can observe a lot by just watching." "We have deep depth." or the master of such things, "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." ----Albert Einstein From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 31 08:16:08 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0VGFhSQ013572; Mon, 31 Jan 2005 08:15:49 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0VGFfph013549; Mon, 31 Jan 2005 08:15:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 08:15:41 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002e01c507af$5cb898c0$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: Subject: Ticking-time-bomb and hydbrid vigor Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 08:10:19 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57450 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: There is a Ticking-time-bomb in the far North of Gaia. Sounds a lot like Sci-Fi, but nooo. It is real. Does anyone care enough to take notice ? http://www.sqwalk.com/blog/000235.html Methane is more than 20 times stronger as a greenhouse gas than carbon dioxide...so... no problemo, let's just "burn it" say the petro-pundits. But it is ironic that CO2 is now poised to abruptly release far more methane than we could ever use or burn, and instead... it will burn us, not the other way around. The problem is not a slow rise in CO2 but a "runaway" greenhouse effect at some point, and the statisticians know that point. These are the same guys that accurately predicted the Hubbert peak, but we are not listening. Tragedy could be as little as twenty years away - tragedy which has happened before in earth's history. In fact, methane could kill us all within the next twenty year more effectively than all the nukes ever assembled. Methane already triggered the greatest mass extinction we know of in the fossil record 250 million years ago: http://tinyurl.com/5rkvz Unless new ZPE or LENR or Carbon-neutral technology comes along first, we are going to be in deep you-know-what... And without a crystal ball that can tell us when the new promised technology will arrive and be mass produced, we should be prepared to err on the side of caution, and there is an obvious place to start. For one thing, try to re-educate our government from the grass-roots upward that this is serious. They do not listen to any scientist (who is not on the Halliburton payroll) so it has to come from lots of voters. Even the Christian right-wing can get in on this one, as they have more kids than most of us and want to see their grandkids survive. To put in terms that even shrubbery can understand, we are now facing the equivalent of one billion WTC crashes happening all at once. The E.T.A. for the" tundra express" is about 2026. There are some kludges that could help to get us by, or "stay our execution" for a few more decades if need be... should the new technology fail us, or if it should take longer to arrive in mass production than expected. Time to start speculating... here is a trial balloon based on the strategy of looking for synergy in what we have now. Can three wrongs (disappointments) ever combine to make a right (successful hybrid solar energy concept which is Carbon-neutral)? Probably not this one, to be suggested, as it is very green... but someone out there probably can do better, and we need plans of action. Now. Disappointment #1) A large percentage of electricity world-wide is generated from turbines burring natural gas and releasing CO2. As a intermediate measure there are advantages to looking for a carbon neutral enhancement to gas turbines, since we cannot replace them all at once. Turbines are high efficiency and can even go higher if the exhaust can be recycled, or if the methane they burn can be reformed first and the carbon "sequestered" on the spot. This is costly but doable. It makes more sense to let nature convert the carbon into H2 near the plant. We can either reform the methane first or even last. Lean Premixed Combustion for Ultra-Low Emission Gas Turbine Combustors is possible by substituting about 20% of the methane with H2. The CO2 can then be theoretically converted in situ by hydrogen producing biomass (algae) to make the H2 in a very large expanse of adjoining greenhouses. Of course turbines will burn straight H2 also from reformed methane. Sites for algae farms like this are ideally desert areas or floating on oceans but most power plants now have a lot of adjoining "extra" space. The carbon in the biomass cells themselves is not burnt (otherwise it wouldn't be carbon neutral) but converted into plastics, fertilizers, animal feed, etc. It is possible to get pretty near to Carbon-neutral this way if you only operate the turbines during day-time... but at what cost for all that greenhouse acreage or equivalent overhead? Hydrogen-enriched hydrocarbon fuels modify both the chemical and physical processes that occur in flames for higher efficiency. Some reforming could happen now in every plant in the USA for about half of the annual cost of the Iraq war. These fuels have been shown to significantly improve flame stability characteristics during lean combustion and to allow combustion at the low temperatures while maintaining high Carnot efficiency and near zero nitrogen oxides. Disappointment #2) Solar in general, has not seen the cost reductions continually promised. But we spend precious little on solar research. The "solar chimney" mentioned in this article below has apparently not held up to close scrutiny either. It would have featured a large greenhouse covering many acres simply to heat air. As the hot air rises, it would escape up a tower in the center of the structure. Wind turbo-generators mounted in the chimney would convert this 30 mph rush of hot air into electricity. It works to a lesser degree on cloudily days. This idea was reported back in 2001, and they were hoping then to break ground a year ago on a project in Oz but cost estimates quadrupled. http://alt-e.blogspot.com/2004/08/solar-chimney.html However there are ways one could boost the output of such a device significantly. The most attractive way involves using the H2/gas turbine and greenhouse for "double duty" and to boost that 30 mph airflow to about 90 mph(triple) by mixing in the hot exhaust from the H2-fired turbine. Perhaps this could even be combined with wind turbines in proper sites. Disappointment #3) Professor Melis of Cal. has been working on modification of photosynthesis in green algae which will permit the generation of hydrogen gas as an economically viable alternative, but his progress has not lived up to initial expectations. http://pmb.berkeley.edu/profiles/newProfiles/melis.html It does work in theory and we all know that many algae will remove CO2 while producing H2 as a byproduct... so perhaps with advancing biotech, this kind of thing can be genetically engineered to do exactly what we need, and could even possibly be engineer to feed off of cooled gas turbine exhaust. Wonder if you could combine the three different ideas, using the greenhouse to both heat some air and grow the algae, which would remove CO2 and produce H2 for the gas turbine, which would also use reformed methane and send the CO2 to the greenhouse. The (now steam) exhaust from the H2 turbine is mixed with the rest of the hot air and channeled into the chimney where more energy is removed. Many tradeoffs are involved, and building acres and acres of greenhouse ponds is not cheap. But for about the $80 billion, the Admin is asking now for the War in Iraq, to go with the quarter trillion already spent, we could have already converted every plant in the USA to go carbon neutral (about 300 plants at a billion per). No, it is not cheap, but neither is war for oil. And neither is loosing everything in Western Civilization to a runaway greenhouse event ... Please read this information about the *ticking time bomb* that few are even aware of. The artic tundra is melting NOW. It is loaded with methane. What are we going to do? "Tent" the whole artic and Siberia? The Arabs would love that. They could sell us tents to go with their oil and imaginary WMD. This is fact, not Sierra Club BS! http://www.sqwalk.com/blog/000235.html Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 31 09:00:02 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0VGxXSQ030282; Mon, 31 Jan 2005 08:59:38 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0VGxTgq030238; Mon, 31 Jan 2005 08:59:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 08:59:29 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <002e01c507af$5cb898c0$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> References: <002e01c507af$5cb898c0$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 11:00:10 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: Ticking-time-bomb Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57451 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: With all it's promises, the World's condition continues to deteriorate. I listened to a man being interviewed on C to C AM. His book is Not by Fire but by Ice, which makes the case that we are sliding into another ice age. We agree that all of the observed effects can be explained by under water volcanos heating up the oceans. IMHO, it is the birth pains of the Messiah. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 30 21:54:06 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0V5rjwk032612; Sun, 30 Jan 2005 21:53:47 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0V5rgVh032568; Sun, 30 Jan 2005 21:53:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 21:53:42 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <07c201c50759$314ada00$4b01a8c0 colin5fc9e2583> Reply-To: "Colin Quinney" From: "Colin Quinney" To: References: Subject: Re: Cosmic oddity casts doubt on theory of universe Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 00:53:30 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2527 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2527 Resent-Message-ID: <9xb3WD.A.x8H.lfc_BB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57446 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com X-Suspected-Spam: billb friends5 Status: RO X-Status: And that in turn reminds of that tid-bit from Monte Python's Galaxy Song: "Pray that there's intelligent somewhere up in space Because there's bugger all down here on Earth". Colin, ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harry Veeder" To: Sent: Monday, January 31, 2005 12:33 AM Subject: FW: Cosmic oddity casts doubt on theory of universe > > > The concluding remarks sound like they come from Douglas Adam's > Hitchhiker's > Guide to the Galaxy. > > LOL. > > Harry > > > >> Cosmic oddity casts doubt on theory of universe > > > >> >> "There is no way to judge the real significance of such a result," says >> Charles Bennett of NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center in Greenbelt, Md., >> the >> leader of the WMAP team. >> >> It all depends on how we perceive "chance," and how we evaluate >> probabilities, Dr. Bennett says. The alignments seen in the CMB may seem >> unlikely, he says, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they require >> new >> physics to explain them. >> >> He points out that "improbable things happen frequently because there are >> lots of opportunities for them to occur." In other words, he says, the >> newly >> discovered CMB correlations are most likely the product of chance. > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 31 11:34:00 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0VJXdSQ002278; Mon, 31 Jan 2005 11:33:44 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0VJX6Lb002047; Mon, 31 Jan 2005 11:33:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 11:33:06 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=2GSg9t5yx9AVQERLMQh1HeNoygUyfNTl2Kzt4ye0gP4GsNPm6QNBIT/IslRTK5ko2NzWa3E0hm2nv/BZ91clz0pHO1RWAWwZ0xcvlkRR21VBvxPq7XzUviv6l/WfVVJ6i0BQXSDgMRo9f1J9uIgJJZnreqiBRMome7J9W/yvv3Q= ; Message-ID: <20050131193254.67334.qmail web54507.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 11:32:54 -0800 (PST) From: Merlyn Subject: Re: Mechanics of magnetism To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <20050130030206.53613.qmail web54504.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-2019542112-1107199974=:66095" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57452 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-2019542112-1107199974=:66095 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii OK, I've done some more pondering on the whole thing, and I think I may have an answer. Assuming the electric field propagates at c, as the magnetic field is proven to do, then there would be a notable "dopplering" of the field gradient surrounding a moving charged particle. This Doppler effect would decrease the force on a charged particle ahead of the moving one and increase the force on a particle behind it. A particle at rest WRT the aether would experience a lesser force, and then a greater force, which would average to be no effect at all. A particle moving relative to the aether however would experience a different force, as the effective field gradients would be modified by the momentum of the moving particle. Identicle charged particles moving in the same direction are not "attracted" to each other, they are simply repelled less strongly than if they were stationary. Surrounding electrostatic pressure takes care of the rest. When the particles pass each other moving in opposite directions, the repulsion is enhanced. Perhaps by doing the math related to this idea, one could determine a difference in magnetic field strength between 2 systems with identical amperages, but widely different drift speeds. Merlyn Magickal Engineer and Technical Metaphysicist --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' --0-2019542112-1107199974=:66095 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
OK, I've done some more pondering on the whole thing, and I think I may have an answer.
 
Assuming the electric field propagates at c, as the magnetic field is proven to do, then there would be a notable "dopplering" of the field gradient surrounding a moving charged particle.
 
This Doppler effect would decrease the force on a charged particle ahead of the moving one and increase the force on a particle behind it.
 
A particle at rest WRT the aether would experience a lesser force, and then a greater force, which would average to be no effect at all.
 
A particle moving relative to the aether however would experience a different force, as the effective field gradients would be modified by the momentum of the moving particle.
 
Identicle charged particles moving in the same direction are not "attracted" to each other, they are simply repelled less strongly than if they were stationary.  Surrounding electrostatic pressure takes care of the rest.
 
When the particles pass each other moving in opposite directions, the repulsion is enhanced.
 
Perhaps by doing the math related to this idea, one could determine a difference in magnetic field strength between 2 systems with identical amperages, but widely different drift speeds.
 


 


Merlyn
Magickal Engineer and Technical Metaphysicist

Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' --0-2019542112-1107199974=:66095-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 31 12:48:26 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0VKm2SQ008619; Mon, 31 Jan 2005 12:48:09 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0VKlxS0008584; Mon, 31 Jan 2005 12:47:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 12:47:59 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Britz: Not enough gas to cause explosion? Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2005 07:47:47 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050127165422.02ae4ec0 pop.mindspring.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050128103514.02a8a2f8@pop.mindspring.com> <003b01c50554$b37c80c0$d0bcfea9@jonesb9pacbell> <41FA6AC7.10203@ix.netcom.com> <00f601c5060a$61edc820$186f53d8@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <41FBBF83.6010003@ix.netcom.com> <41FC59D5.4070603@ix.netcom.com> <41FD13E5.8070803@ix.netcom.com> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j0VKlpSQ008508 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57453 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Rick Monteverde's message of Sun, 30 Jan 2005 12:43:39 -1000: Hi, [snip] > Since the event seemed to develop 'slowly' at first, how about this - a bubble of H & O2 did develop and ignite, but in a burn still slow and/or small enough to be mechanically absorbed by the system. As the fuel was consumed, then - perhaps even synchronously with a returning shock wave from the walls of the vessel from the initial burn - the bubble collapses down against the site of reactions on the screen, causing a tiny supernova. [snip] More wildspeculation; Supernovas may be triggered by hydrino formation and collapse when the He3 level at the surface of a large star gets high enough. (It almost has to be at the surface, because the core is too hot to allow much H to exist). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 31 12:56:31 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0VKu9SQ012245; Mon, 31 Jan 2005 12:56:14 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0VKu7ag012218; Mon, 31 Jan 2005 12:56:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 12:56:07 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Entry to "Phenomena Reports" Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2005 07:55:50 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <2.2.32.20050130072814.0068db80 pop.freeserve.net> In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.20050130072814.0068db80 pop.freeserve.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j0VKtsSQ012094 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57454 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In reply to Grimer's message of Sun, 30 Jan 2005 07:28:14 +0000: Hi, [snip] >If UFO's exist - and personally, I don't believe that they >do - I have to believe it, because I have seen one. :) >then it seems pretty obvious to me that they must >have discovered how to "fly" through the Beta-atmosphere >in an analogous fashion to the way we fly through the >Alpha-atmosphere. They must have also recognised (as >Ing.Saviour and I do - see the posts on his Yahoo site) >that Newton was mistaken in thinking that inertial mass >was a measure of matter and not merely a property of >matter analogous to temperature though on a very much >finer scale. This means that UFO passengers can >be shielded from Beta-atmospheric inertial effects >in an analogous way to that in which airline passengers >are insulated from Alpha-atmospheric effects. If they >weren't the enormous accelerations involved would spread >them like strawberry jam on the internal walls of the UFO. 8-) [snip] Playing devil's advocate for a moment, you ignore the possibility that those UFOs which have been observed to make such manoeuvres, may not have had any living occupants, and may have been remotely controlled. Unless of course someone has a reference to a story where live occupants were seen boarding such a craft, that then performed such a manoeuvre? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 31 13:35:07 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0VLYiSQ028282; Mon, 31 Jan 2005 13:34:49 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0VLYg1b028272; Mon, 31 Jan 2005 13:34:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 13:34:42 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 12:43:45 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Ticking-time-bomb and hydbrid vigor Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57455 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 8:10 AM 1/31/5, Jones Beene wrote: >There is a Ticking-time-bomb in the far North of Gaia. > >Sounds a lot like Sci-Fi, but nooo. It is real. Does anyone >care enough to take notice ? >http://www.sqwalk.com/blog/000235.html > >Methane is more than 20 times stronger as a greenhouse gas >than carbon dioxide...so... no problemo, let's just "burn >it" say the petro-pundits. >This is fact, not Sierra Club BS! > >http://www.sqwalk.com/blog/000235.html > >Jones Good grief, Jones, you act like this is new information! Not that I disagree with it, but I do feel compelled to say the source (an anti-gas pipeline group in Georgia) hardly appears more credible than the Sierra Club. As for the information not being new, and if you don't care about the credibility of the source, I've been arguing the same line for years, both here and on sci.physics.fusion. Below, repleat with my many spelling errors, is part of one of the debates I had with Mitchell Jones 6 years ago (gee, whatever happened to him?) Well Jones, when you are an iconoclastic member of the free energy lunatic fringe I guess you just lose all credibility. 8^) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - At 5:40 AM 5/18/98, Horace Heffner wrote [in thread: Re: Global Warming: What fossil fuel companies want you to hear..., on sci.physics.fusion]: >>Originally-From: mjones jump.net (Mitchell Jones) > >>***{I got the distinct impression from an e-mail from you, Sam, that you >>are about to play games based on the definition of the term "urban." If >>so, please don't waste our time. The so called "urban heat island effect" >>applies to any surface temperature data set collected at a location where >>nearby development has been taking place. That means that any nearby >>buildup of concrete, tarmac, brick, asphalt roofing, etc., will corrupt >>the data set by inducing a false increase in the readings over time. You >>can't get around the problem by deleting data sets based on somebody's >>definition of "urban." Whether that definition applies to areas with a >>population over 100,000, or over 50,000, or whatever, is not the point. >>The point is that you need to employ strict criteria to exclude every >>surface data collection point where, over the period of time covered by >>the data set, significant accumulation of man-made structures has >>occurred. For practical purposes, in other words, you need records >>collected at sites situated far from human habitations--which means: you >>need to do a specific investigation of the developmental history of any >>site you keep in your data base. This means that any study which alleges a >>longitudinal increase in surface temperatures must present a detailed >>explanation of the protocol by which this artifact was eliminated from >>their data; and it means that any study which fails to do so ought to be >>tossed out on principle. --Mitchell Jones}*** > >Mitchell, > > >It takes me several days to post here, so I lag way behind the discussion. >I'd still like to make a few points: > >(1) Based on your above criteria, you seem to imply the need to throw out >every land based piece of temperature data. This would represent a major >*distortion* to the data. Global warming is just that - global warming. >Throwing out a mjor piece of the globe is to skew the data. What is >important is that the data points be representational of the sample space, >i.e. not overly skewed towards urban areas. > >(2) Most weather stations in the US were located on farms in order to get >a good spread of data for graphing purposes, for plotting isobars, etc. >If this is true, then the data may in fact be skewed to the cool side most >of the year due to the cooling effect of the green crops. > >(3) Based on 20 years personal experience living in South Central Alaska, >I can attest to the fact that the weather has changed dramatically, and >that glacier activity indicates the sudden weather change is significant >over an approximately 10,000 year period. I can assure you that Alaska is >not subject to any significant amount of urban development, BTW. > >(4) What is most alarming is the rate of change of the weather, despite >years of volcanic activity, high forest fire activity, and the smoke >release fo desert storm, which cools the earth on a temporary basis. >This, to me, is indicative of a powerful underlying trend towards warming. >If true, then then changes in the earth's albedo due to snow melting, >increased solar activity, and settling of atmospheric dust, could all work >together to cause a significant temperature spike in the near future. > >(5) Studies based upon mountain snowmelt, ocean sedimentation, polar ice >cores, and tree rings, taken in a representative way, can be (and have >been) used to calculate mean global temperatures. > >(6) The real danger to the earth from warming appears to be methane >release. This is already occuring at an alarming rate in the arctic. >Large quantities of methane is being released from the thawing tundra. >Much more important is the fact this rate is accelerating. It is not in >equilibrium. Methane produces ove 20 times the greenhouse effect as CO2. > > >(7) The methane hydrate in frozen pools at the bottom of the ocean >possibly represent a bigger threat. The ice enclosing the methane melts >at about 0 C, so a mojor release can occur suddenly and without warning in >large areas where the sea bottom warms slightly. The earth's atmosphere >at one time contained a large amount of methane, so there is a lot of the >stuff around. > >(8) Low altitude water in the atmosphere increases albedo and cools the >earth. High altitude water vapor, that occurs increasingly with higher >temperatures, however, acts in a greenhouse fasion. This is one of the >reasons why venus is so hot, even though its albedo is very high. It is >possible the earth could be like venus in a very short time if enough >factors all pull together. The possiblity exists for an unstable >temperature runaway regime to develop. We may in fact already be in that >regime. > >(9) If urbanization has such a dramitc effect on land temperature, then it >has significant effect on global temperature. If urbaniztion has such a >dramatic effect on global warming, then urbanization must stop! It is not >just CO2 emission that should be curtailed. > >(10) Any debate about the existance of gloabal warming should exclude >discussion of how disagreeable the political consequences are. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 31 13:58:19 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0VLvxSQ005060; Mon, 31 Jan 2005 13:58:04 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0VLvtEs005022; Mon, 31 Jan 2005 13:57:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 13:57:55 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "John Steck" To: Subject: RE: Entry to "Phenomena Reports" Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 15:58:23 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 In-Reply-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57456 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Robin van Spaandonk [mailto:rvanspaa bigpond.net.au] "those UFOs which have been observed to make such manoeuvres, may not have had any living occupants, and may have been remotely controlled." Not really that far fetched of an idea if you think about it... remote robotic exploration is proving to be quite feasible (space and deep sea)... it is pretty much required to overcome our temporal frailties. Experimental research on transportation and propulsion devices has been heavily funded for some time now. There is no reason to believe that this research isn't firmly on the fringes of theoretical science. What if UFO's are nothing more than experimental quantum drive craft? Quantum mechanics says simultaneous up/down/neutral. A drive system based on this model should not just allow a craft to exist every where at once, but every when as well. Cross time sightings should be a reasonable expectation and would nicely validate the postulate that time also has 3 dimensions as described in Larson's Reciprocal System (btw, thanks for posting that Hoyt). Have you ever seen the movie "Contact"? Not the greatest cinematography of out time but always struck a chord with me as how we as humans may evolve space travel. Since we are relatively too short lived and delicate to bring Mohamed to the mountain, we develop technology to bring the mountain to Mohamed. We essentially become the "alien" culture as described in the movie, never to physically leaving our planet to explore space/time. -john From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 31 14:01:12 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0VM0XSQ006458; Mon, 31 Jan 2005 14:00:38 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0VM0RwH006400; Mon, 31 Jan 2005 14:00:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 14:00:27 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "John Steck" To: Subject: RE: Ticking-time-bomb and hybrid vigor Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 16:00:58 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 In-Reply-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57457 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Anyway to safely tap/deplete these enormous energy reserves then? Glass half full...? -john -----Original Message----- From: Horace Heffner [mailto:hheffner mtaonline.net] Sent: Monday, January 31, 2005 3:44 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Ticking-time-bomb and hydbrid vigor At 8:10 AM 1/31/5, Jones Beene wrote: >There is a Ticking-time-bomb in the far North of Gaia. > >Sounds a lot like Sci-Fi, but nooo. It is real. Does anyone >care enough to take notice ? >http://www.sqwalk.com/blog/000235.html > >Methane is more than 20 times stronger as a greenhouse gas >than carbon dioxide...so... no problemo, let's just "burn >it" say the petro-pundits. >This is fact, not Sierra Club BS! > >http://www.sqwalk.com/blog/000235.html > >Jones Good grief, Jones, you act like this is new information! Not that I disagree with it, but I do feel compelled to say the source (an anti-gas pipeline group in Georgia) hardly appears more credible than the Sierra Club. As for the information not being new, and if you don't care about the credibility of the source, I've been arguing the same line for years, both here and on sci.physics.fusion. Below, repleat with my many spelling errors, is part of one of the debates I had with Mitchell Jones 6 years ago (gee, whatever happened to him?) Well Jones, when you are an iconoclastic member of the free energy lunatic fringe I guess you just lose all credibility. 8^) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - At 5:40 AM 5/18/98, Horace Heffner wrote [in thread: Re: Global Warming: What fossil fuel companies want you to hear..., on sci.physics.fusion]: >>Originally-From: mjones jump.net (Mitchell Jones) > >>***{I got the distinct impression from an e-mail from you, Sam, that you >>are about to play games based on the definition of the term "urban." If >>so, please don't waste our time. The so called "urban heat island effect" >>applies to any surface temperature data set collected at a location where >>nearby development has been taking place. That means that any nearby >>buildup of concrete, tarmac, brick, asphalt roofing, etc., will corrupt >>the data set by inducing a false increase in the readings over time. You >>can't get around the problem by deleting data sets based on somebody's >>definition of "urban." Whether that definition applies to areas with a >>population over 100,000, or over 50,000, or whatever, is not the point. >>The point is that you need to employ strict criteria to exclude every >>surface data collection point where, over the period of time covered by >>the data set, significant accumulation of man-made structures has >>occurred. For practical purposes, in other words, you need records >>collected at sites situated far from human habitations--which means: you >>need to do a specific investigation of the developmental history of any >>site you keep in your data base. This means that any study which alleges a >>longitudinal increase in surface temperatures must present a detailed >>explanation of the protocol by which this artifact was eliminated from >>their data; and it means that any study which fails to do so ought to be >>tossed out on principle. --Mitchell Jones}*** > >Mitchell, > > >It takes me several days to post here, so I lag way behind the discussion. >I'd still like to make a few points: > >(1) Based on your above criteria, you seem to imply the need to throw out >every land based piece of temperature data. This would represent a major >*distortion* to the data. Global warming is just that - global warming. >Throwing out a mjor piece of the globe is to skew the data. What is >important is that the data points be representational of the sample space, >i.e. not overly skewed towards urban areas. > >(2) Most weather stations in the US were located on farms in order to get >a good spread of data for graphing purposes, for plotting isobars, etc. >If this is true, then the data may in fact be skewed to the cool side most >of the year due to the cooling effect of the green crops. > >(3) Based on 20 years personal experience living in South Central Alaska, >I can attest to the fact that the weather has changed dramatically, and >that glacier activity indicates the sudden weather change is significant >over an approximately 10,000 year period. I can assure you that Alaska is >not subject to any significant amount of urban development, BTW. > >(4) What is most alarming is the rate of change of the weather, despite >years of volcanic activity, high forest fire activity, and the smoke >release fo desert storm, which cools the earth on a temporary basis. >This, to me, is indicative of a powerful underlying trend towards warming. >If true, then then changes in the earth's albedo due to snow melting, >increased solar activity, and settling of atmospheric dust, could all work >together to cause a significant temperature spike in the near future. > >(5) Studies based upon mountain snowmelt, ocean sedimentation, polar ice >cores, and tree rings, taken in a representative way, can be (and have >been) used to calculate mean global temperatures. > >(6) The real danger to the earth from warming appears to be methane >release. This is already occuring at an alarming rate in the arctic. >Large quantities of methane is being released from the thawing tundra. >Much more important is the fact this rate is accelerating. It is not in >equilibrium. Methane produces ove 20 times the greenhouse effect as CO2. > > >(7) The methane hydrate in frozen pools at the bottom of the ocean >possibly represent a bigger threat. The ice enclosing the methane melts >at about 0 C, so a mojor release can occur suddenly and without warning in >large areas where the sea bottom warms slightly. The earth's atmosphere >at one time contained a large amount of methane, so there is a lot of the >stuff around. > >(8) Low altitude water in the atmosphere increases albedo and cools the >earth. High altitude water vapor, that occurs increasingly with higher >temperatures, however, acts in a greenhouse fasion. This is one of the >reasons why venus is so hot, even though its albedo is very high. It is >possible the earth could be like venus in a very short time if enough >factors all pull together. The possiblity exists for an unstable >temperature runaway regime to develop. We may in fact already be in that >regime. > >(9) If urbanization has such a dramitc effect on land temperature, then it >has significant effect on global temperature. If urbaniztion has such a >dramatic effect on global warming, then urbanization must stop! It is not >just CO2 emission that should be curtailed. > >(10) Any debate about the existance of gloabal warming should exclude >discussion of how disagreeable the political consequences are. Regards, Horace Heffner -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.2 - Release Date: 28-Jan-05 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 31 14:22:58 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0VMMeSQ016285; Mon, 31 Jan 2005 14:22:46 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0VMMah6016255; Mon, 31 Jan 2005 14:22:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 14:22:36 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <007101c507e2$9ad3c3e0$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: Subject: Re: Ticking-time-bomb and hydbrid vigor Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 14:17:08 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57458 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace, > Good grief, Jones, you act like this is new information! Not that I disagree with it, but I do feel compelled to say the source (an anti-gas pipeline group in Georgia) hardly appears more credible than the Sierra Club. Some of the information has been around for years but was not very well-substantiated before. The new tie-in to the mass extinction is what is most surprising, because there is very good proof emerging on many fronts of what happened then. My recent inspiration is a new book by Michael Benton called "When Life Nearly Died." I can't recommend the book to a general audience as it is dense and technical, but it does makes the case very strongly, if you can stick with it. Besides there are many newbies here on vortex who don't remember old posts and don't think it worth the effort to look in the archives for any reason. > As for the information not being new, and if you don't care about the credibility of the source, I've been arguing the same line for years, both here and on sci.physics.fusion. But Horace ... you are way ahead of your time, as are many of the vortexians (the "other" Jones notwithstanding) , and now it think public opinion is changing from a trickle in favor of more appreciation for this monstrous risk we are facing to more like a steady flow. The time to do something is now. Don't give up trying to hammer it in, please, even if it is "old hat" to you - after all you live on the fringe of the danger zone, and will be among the first to go ;-( as it were. A lot is at stake. That hasn't changed, but the point is that this has started to transcend politics and will continue to do so. > Below, replete with my many spelling errors, is part of one of the debates I had with Mitchell Jones 6 years ago (gee, whatever happened to him?) Well Jones, when you are an iconoclastic member of the free energy lunatic fringe I guess you just lose all credibility. 8^) Not exactly, it just takes a while for the rest of the world to catch-up, and yes there is some contrary evidence being flaunted about by the oil-lobby. But follow the dollar as to their credibility. I didn't really buy into this CO2 thing whole-heartedly until reading Benton's book and the Baltimore Sun article, at the urging of Mark Goldes, who has also been waving his arms in warning for years, with nobody listening - like you have. Yes, it's like being the court jester in olden days to the rest of the science establishment. You can say things on vortex that every pompous scientist from A-to-Zimmerman can easily ignore, and will never read anyway - but sometimes it registers, if only in the sense of an emeging meme. I suspect the court jester in olden times was ultimately more influential in the end than all the "courtiers" and "chamberlains" and bishops put together ... seems like I remember one king trying to have his jester buried in Westminster Abbey or some such affront to the rest of English nobility. We won't get that far with our iconoclastic rhetoric, but with enough jesters on one end of the see-saw, occasionally that will push the rest of mediocrity to the "tipping point," after which the nobility has no choice but to follow, or else risk "loosing their heads" les-Miz style. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 31 14:29:22 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0VMT3SQ019633; Mon, 31 Jan 2005 14:29:08 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0VMSx2l019586; Mon, 31 Jan 2005 14:28:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 14:28:59 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <007801c507e3$81c3f180$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: , References: Subject: Re: Ticking-time-bomb and hybrid vigor Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 14:23:34 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57459 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John, > Anyway to safely tap/deplete these enormous energy reserves then? Glass half full...? According to Benton et al. the economics are not there for commerical extraction in most cases - even with the calthrates which are more dense, because it is a low amount of gas per square mile. There are just a lot of square miles in the far north tundra - as Horace can not doubt attest to. And once it starts leaking into the atmosphere it is 20 times more effective than CO2 so then you get the "runaway" effect very guickly as in auto-catalysis... and then there is no stopping it. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 31 14:48:29 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j0VMm8SQ029334; Mon, 31 Jan 2005 14:48:13 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j0VMm65M029313; Mon, 31 Jan 2005 14:48:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 14:48:06 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Mark S Bilk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Ticking-time-bomb and hydbrid vigor Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 14:45:41 -0800 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.28] Content-Type: text/plain MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <0501311447450N.30586 isis> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57460 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In-Reply-To: <007101c507e2$9ad3c3e0$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> Organization: http://www.cosmicpenguin.com/911 Here's another article, with some references, by British journalist George Monbiot. http://www.monbiot.com/archives/2003/07/01/shadow-of-extinction/ Subsequent articles can be found at: http://www.monbiot.com/archives/category/climate-change/ July 1, 2003 Shadow of extinction Only six degrees separate our world from the cataclysmic end of an ancient era By George Monbiot. Published in the Guardian 1st July 2003 It is old news, I admit. Two hundred and fifty-one million years old, to be precise. But the story of what happened then, which has now been told for the first time, demands our urgent attention. Its implications are more profound than anything taking place in Iraq, or Washington, or even (and I am sorry to burst your bubble) Wimbledon. Unless we understand what happened, and act upon that intelligence, pre-history may very soon repeat itself, not as tragedy, but as catastrophe. The events which brought the Permian period (between 286 and 251 million years ago) to an end could not be clearly determined until the mapping of the key geological sequences had been completed. Until recently, palaeontologists had assumed that the changes which took place then were gradual and piecemeal. But three years ago a precise date for the end of the period was established, which enabled geologists to draw direct comparisons between the rocks laid down at that time in different parts of the world. Having done so, they made a shattering discovery. In China, South Africa, Australia, Greenland, Russia and Spitsbergen, the rocks record an almost identical sequence of events, taking place not gradually, but almost instantaneously. They show that a cataclysm caused by natural processes almost brought life on earth to an end. They also suggest that a set of human activities which threatens to replicate those processes could exert the same effect, within the lifetimes of some of those who are on earth today. As the professor of palaeontology Michael Benton records in his new book, When Life Nearly Died, the marine sediments deposited at the end of the Permian period record two sudden changes.1 The first is that the red or green or grey rock laid down in the presence of oxygen is suddenly replaced by black muds of the kind deposited when oxygen is absent. At the same time, an instant shift in the ratio of the isotopes (alternative forms) of carbon within the rocks suggests a spectacular change in the concentration of atmospheric gases. On land, another dramatic transition has been dated to precisely the same time. In Russia and South Africa, gently deposited mudstones and limestones suddenly give way to massive dumps of pebbles and boulders. But the geological changes are minor by comparison to what happened to the animals and plants. The Permian was one of the most biologically diverse periods in the earth's history. Herbivorous reptiles the size of rhinos were hunted through forests of tree ferns and flowering trees by sabre-toothed predators. At sea, massive coral reefs accumulated, among which lived great sharks, fish of all kinds and hundreds of species of shelly creatures. Then suddenly there is almost nothing. The fossil record very nearly stops dead. The reefs die instantly, and do not reappear on earth for ten million years. All the large and medium-sized sharks disappear, most of the shelly species, and even the great majority of the toughest and most numerous organisms in the sea, the plankton. Among many classes of marine animals, the only survivors were those adapted to the near-absence of oxygen. On land, the shift was even more severe. Plantlife was almost eliminated from the earth's surface. The four-footed animals, the category to which humans belong, were nearly exterminated: so far only two fossil reptile species have been found anywhere on earth which survived the end of the Permian. The world's surface came to be dominated by just one of these, an animal a bit like a pig. It became ubiquitous because nothing else was left to compete with it or to prey upon it. Altogether, Benton shows, some 90% of the earth's species appear to have been wiped out: this represents by the far the gravest of the mass extinctions. The world's "productivity" (the total mass of biological matter) collapsed. Ecosystems recovered very slowly. No coral reefs have been found anywhere on earth in the rocks laid down over the following 10 million years. One hundred and fifty million years elapsed before the world once again became as biodiverse as it appears to have been in the Permian. So what happened? Some scientists have argued that the mass extinction was caused by a meteorite. But the evidence they put forward has been undermined by further studies. There is a more persuasive case for a different explanation. For many years, geologists have been aware that at some point during or after the Permian there was a series of gigantic volcanic eruptions in Siberia. The lava was dated properly for the first time in the early 1990s. We now know that the principal explosions took place 251 million years ago, precisely at the point at which life was almost extinguished. The volcanoes produced two gases: sulphur dioxide and carbon dioxide. The sulphur and other effusions caused acid rain, but would have bled from the atmosphere quite quickly. The carbon dioxide, on the other hand, would have persisted. By enhancing the greenhouse effect, it appears to have warmed the world sufficiently to have destabilised the superconcentrated frozen gas called methane hydrate, locked in sediments around the polar seas. The release of methane into the atmosphere explains the sudden shift in carbon isotopes. Methane is an even more powerful greenhouse gas than carbon dioxide. The result of its release was runaway global warming: a rise in temperature led to changes which raised the temperature further, and so on. The warming appears, alongside the acid rain, to have killed the plants. Starvation then killed the animals. Global warming also seems to explain the geological changes. If the temperature of the surface waters near the poles increases, the circulation of marine currents slows down, which means that the ocean floor is deprived of oxygen. As the plants on land died, their roots would cease to hold together the soil and loose rock, with the result that erosion rates would have greatly increased. So how much warming took place? A sharp change in the ratio of the isotopes of oxygen permits us to reply with some precision: six degrees centigrade. Benton does not make the obvious point, but another author, the climate change specialist Mark Lynas, does.2 Six degrees is the upper estimate produced by the UN's scientific body, the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, for global warming by 2100.3 A conference of some of the world's leading atmospheric scientists in Berlin last month concluded that the IPCC's model may have underestimated the problem: the upper limit, they now suggest, should range between 7 and 10 degrees.4 Neither model takes into account the possibility of a partial melting of the methane hydrate still present in vast quantities around the fringes of the polar seas. Suddenly, the events of a quarter of a billion years ago begin to look very topical indeed. One of the possible endings of the human story has already been told. Our principal political effort must now be to ensure that it does not become set in stone. www.monbiot.com References: 1. Michael J. Benton, 2003. When Life Nearly Died: The Greatest Mass Extinction of All Time. Thames and Hudson, London. 2. Press Release issued by Mark Lynas, 17th June 2003. "New Evidence Warns of Global Warming `Catastrophe' this Century". 3. Eg Robert Watson, chairman IPCC, 20th November 2000. Report to the Sixth Conference of the Parties of the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change. 4. Fred Pearce, 4th June 2003. Global Warming's Sooty Smokescreen Revealed. New Scientist. http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99993798 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 31 16:51:24 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j110p0SQ020417; Mon, 31 Jan 2005 16:51:06 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j110owTI020396; Mon, 31 Jan 2005 16:50:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 16:50:58 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 16:00:07 -0900 To: From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: RE: Ticking-time-bomb and hybrid vigor Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57461 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 4:00 PM 1/31/5, John Steck wrote: >Anyway to safely tap/deplete these enormous energy reserves then? Glass >half full...? >-john Yes, the glass is half full, if we have enough time to drink from it. A week ago I would have said that it is a reasonable speculation that many agencies and companies (e.g USGS on the North Slope, Japan National Oil Co. (JNOC), JAPEX, and Uchida working in the Mallik gas field in the Mackenzie delta) are working on tapping undersea clatherates, and some on subsoil methade hydrates, but no (commercial quality) successes have been published to my knowlege, so I saw no special reason to expect any advancements soon. However, my jaw about dropped off last week when (on CSPAN2) during an Alaska State Senate committee hearing on (selecting) gas pipeline routes the potential and expected development of methane hydrate harvesting was used a justification (by Mark Meyers, the director of the Oil and Gas division, State of Ak) for investing in a very large gas pipeline to Valdez, as well as a major gas liquifaction and shipping plant. It was suggested that, due to methane hydrates, the true gas produciton will be many many times larger than the Prudhoe Bay reserves. Methinks somebody knows something the public does not! (Not much out on the fringe side with *that* speculation, eh?) The main worries regarding a gas pipeline through Canada and into the Chicago area is that it will force the price of gas in that market area to drop below a profitable level! Combined with the Canadian (MacKenzie Field) gas, known to be at least 6 TCF, there will be too much gas delivered to the midwest USA. A gassification and shipping plant in Valdez permits marketing the gas to the west coast, and asia. I would not be surprised to see both built eventually. Congress allocated $49M in 2000 to study hydrate development in Alaska and the Gulf of Mexico. That money is about to run out, so Alaska is asking for $70M more. It is estimated that there are 100 TCF of hydrates under Prudhoe Bay alone - and they lie on top of the oil and gas production zones, but under the permafrost. If gas pressure is dropped in the production zone, and hot water injected into the hydrate zone, the hydrates will (hopefully) release gas into the production zone (from which they migrated in the first place) and it will be produced. The method of reducing pressure in production zones located below hydrates in order to get gas out of the hydrates (they spontaneously boil off methane at atmospheric pressure) has been in use for more than 40 years at the Messoyakha field in Russia. The Prudhoe bay production zones can provide 20 years worth of gas supplies, and with the production of the (overlying) extra 100 TCF maybe another 40 years worth. That is just the tip of the iceberg. There is probably over 30,000 TCF of gas hydrates onshore and offshore in Alaska alone. Similar amounts in Northern Canada would not be surprising. If we could use the hydrates to produce hydrogen gas for energy, and carbon fiber for building materials, we would have achieved something good for the environment I expect. The main problem is that clatherate boiloff may not be stopped in vulnerable areas, like the hydrate glacier off Vancouver, or shallow sub-permafrost areas. The only thing likely to save us is out of our control ... namely sudden changes in the ocean currents bringing on a glacial age. BTW, just like excessive wildfires and extreme storms are an early indicator of severe global warming, disappearing ships will be an early warning sign of major clathrate meltings. When the clathrate's crystaline structure breaks down small methane gas bubbles are released. As these bubbles rise they expand. The bouyancy of water filled with these bubbles drops. A ship moving across a major clatherate meltdown would be like a ship going over Niagra Falls. It would sink through the bubbles as if its weight suddenly increased several fold. There are not many ships in the extreme lattitudes, but, as the polar ice cap recedes, northern routes may become more common, and disappearing ships then will too. This clatherate bouyancy problem applies to submarines as well, in fact more so because they would be sucked into the bubble zone, but we are not as likely to hear about them. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 31 17:51:57 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j111pbSQ013770; Mon, 31 Jan 2005 17:51:43 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j111pYRR013745; Mon, 31 Jan 2005 17:51:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 17:51:34 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 17:00:38 -0900 To: From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: RE: Ticking-time-bomb and hybrid vigor Resent-Message-ID: <1bk4EC.A.oWD.mCu_BB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57462 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I wrote: "A gassification and shipping plant in Valdez permits marketing the gas to the west coast, and asia. I would not be surprised to see both built eventually." That should say: "A liquifaction and loading plant in Valdez permits marketing the gas to the west coast, and asia. I would not be surprised to see both the Valdez Pipepline and Alaska-Canada Pipeline built eventually." The Valdez route also has the advantage that a spur can be built to supply the Anchorage area, which has dwindling Cook Inlet gas supplies. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 31 20:43:28 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j114fjQs025605; Mon, 31 Jan 2005 20:43:05 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j114fbMF025532; Mon, 31 Jan 2005 20:41:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 20:41:37 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 20:41:31 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: ### American Antigravity - Troy Hurtubise Interview ### (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <8qrjH.A.0OG._hw_BB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57463 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: See below... ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 12:37:43 -0800 From: Tim Ventura To: Antigravity yahoogroups.com, ufofacts@yahoogroups.com, aggroup yahoogroups.com, jlnlabs@yahoogroups.com, 'Lifters Group' , 'American Antigravity Yahoo Group' , greenglow yahoogroups.com, tapten@yahoogroups.com, 'quantum cavorite' Subject: ### American Antigravity - Troy Hurtubise Interview ### Dear All: This is going to be a big week for new interviews at American Antigravity.Com, and it starts with a breakthrough interview about Troy Hurtubise "Angel Light". Is he for real, or is the device a hoax? Make up your own mind after listening to our 1/2 hour presentation online! Hurtubise claims that the Angel Light works by "fusing light", and we've been able to get more technical details out of him than in previous appearances on Coast to Coast or the Discovery Channel. If you've been wanting the nitty-gritty details on how he claims the Angel Light works, then definitely check out the interview, in Windows Media format. http://www.americanantigravity.com/interviews3.shtml Also, we've compiled a page on Hurtubise inventions -- including the Ursus Bearsuit, Fire Paste, Light Infantry Mobile Blast Cushions, and of course, the Angel Light. Hurtubise claims that the Angel Light makes solid objects completely transparent, but that the French government's interest in it is for another reason -- it also has some dangerous side-effects, making it a new form of "death ray". Additionally, he says that it completely stops electromagnetic systems in their tracks -- including drone test-aircraft flying at up to 70,000 feet in height! He's been working overtime trying to eliminate these side effects, but still hasn't perfected a safe unit. http://www.americanantigravity.com/hurtubise.shtml Troy's fire-paste is just as remarkable: remember Starlite from the 1990's? It was a heat-proof plastic that Popular Science claimed had been tested by NASA to withstand temperatures up to those in a nuclear explosion! Maurice Ward and Starlite mysteriously disappeared, but Hurtubise has invented a paint with similar properties. Not only is it completely heat-proof, but it also blocks heat-transfer! We have photos online + links to video showing Hurtubise demonstrating this remarkable invention in detail. Check out our news section online for details, at: http://www.americanantigravity.com Sincerely; Tim Ventura http://www.americanantigravity.com Phone: 425-820-5675 Mobile: 425-260-4175 tventura6 comcast.net