From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 1 08:01:34 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j11G163e013945; Tue, 1 Feb 2005 08:01:06 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j11G0qv0013758; Tue, 1 Feb 2005 08:00:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 08:00:52 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050201105747.02ad64e0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2005 10:59:51 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: The paper that started it all Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57464 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I uploaded the paper that started it all: Fleischmann, M., S. Pons, and M. Hawkins, Electrochemically induced nuclear fusion of deuterium. J. Electroanal. Chem., 1989. 261: p. 301 and errata in Vol. 263. http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/Fleischmanelectroche.pdf You can tell it was written in haste. The errata includes 15 corrections! - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 1 08:59:40 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j11GxQ3e011386; Tue, 1 Feb 2005 08:59:26 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j11GxN3o011353; Tue, 1 Feb 2005 08:59:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 08:59:23 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=RuiqGrFVVgjeD83cN3DQbBJCGvoXTD6L19+216fJdc7jDDwxnUO5xfqGnh+snQex; Message-ID: <410-2200522115585230 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Spinning Supermagnet Levitation Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 09:58:52 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940a8a793a2f7cbf4cf5683fca34e6e95f5350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.162.15 Resent-Message-ID: <5Hvjv.A.SxC.qV7_BB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57465 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII FWIW Department. According to my astute calculations a $2.00 US, ( indigo part no. 43552) 25 mm diameter NdFeB Ring Magnet (13,300 Gauss or 1.33 Tesla ) spinning at 7200 rpm can/might develop a levitation force of about 0.75 pounds. http://www.indigo.com/magnets/gphmgnts/metric-neodymium-rare-earth-magnets.html Take my word for it at your own risk. :-) Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

FWIW Department.
 
According to my astute calculations a $2.00 US, ( indigo part no. 43552) 25 mm diameter NdFeB
Ring Magnet (13,300 Gauss or 1.33 Tesla ) spinning at 7200 rpm can/might develop
a levitation force of about 0.75 pounds.
 
 
 
Take my word for it at your own risk.   :-)
 
Frederick
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 1 10:55:44 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j11ItD3e006479; Tue, 1 Feb 2005 10:55:14 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j11ItAoS006438; Tue, 1 Feb 2005 10:55:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 10:55:10 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 10:04:23 -0900 To: From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: RE: Ticking-time-bomb and hybrid vigor Resent-Message-ID: <1QCfB.A.dkB.NC9_BB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57466 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I wrote: "The main problem is that clatherate boiloff may not be stopped in vulnerable areas, like the hydrate glacier off Vancouver, or shallow sub-permafrost areas. The only thing likely to save us is out of our control ... namely sudden changes in the ocean currents bringing on a glacial age." That should have been written more clearly as: "The main problem is that clatherate boiloff may not be stopped in vulnerable areas, like the hydrate glacier off Vancouver, or shallow sub-permafrost areas. If that happens, the only thing likely to save us is out of our control ... namely sudden changes in the ocean currents bringing on a glacial age." Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 1 11:55:29 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j11Jt33e004584; Tue, 1 Feb 2005 11:55:04 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j11Jt1n9004562; Tue, 1 Feb 2005 11:55:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 11:55:01 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050201143804.02ac2570 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2005 14:54:46 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Letter from Bockris Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j11Jst3e004478 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57468 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Here is a letter I received recently from John O'M Bockris. It reflects many of the concerns about Hubbert's Peak and global warming that have been discussed in this forum. Also attached is my response to Bockris. - Jed - - - - - - - - - - - - - Dear Jed, I thought your book on CF in the future to be a remarkable document. I read it straight through on receipt. However! Hubbert's Peak will come about 2010. I have been studying it . . . for some years. Estimates stretch from 2006 to 2030. After Hubbert's Peak, oil will diminish rapidly. There are many solutions & I have published two books about them, the first ("The Solar Hydrogen Alternative") in 1975. In 1980 I suggested a state of emergency should be called to start building a renewable energy scheme. In my view, there are no solutions we could build now, quickly enough. A government report stated that building two nuclear power stations PER WEEK would need 50 years to build enough nuclear energy machinery to keep CO2 at its present level. There is no sign Washington will do anything else but changed to cold. In the 1975 book, there is a [calculation] of the time needed to construct sufficient minds etc. It would take too long. Running on coal would increase the rate of CO2 emission 4 times. Ice melts. Greenland & Iceland + Antarctic by conservative calculation -> 25 foot sea level rise. Manhattan and most of the coastal cities [will sink]. It will happen quite suddenly. CF as a substitute. You know, I think of my team at Texas A&M as pioneering the proof of F&P's suggestion that the excess heat was nuclear. We had tritium in a refereed paper in September 89; He-4 in the electrode in 1991; (publication refereed '92); transmutation C -> Fe in 1994 & Pd -> many elements in 1994. So there is no questioning my support for CF. In fact I have just finished a review of Krivit & Winocur book & I have named CF as the greatest discovery in experimental science in the century. However there is a long way to go the best is still wobbly & even Storms agrees he cannot reproduce on demand. Moreover, from the start, it was known to occur in bursts & the figures of merit e.g., 10^4 watts/cc are from the top of a burst. Suppose we research CF with 10 - 50 $M/yr support?? MAYBE it will work out. BUT I DON'T SEE HOW IT COULD BE IN TIME. Of course man will still populate the earth after the sea level rises, but it will put technology back 10 - 20 years or more. Do you know what fascinates me about solid-state nuclear reactions? (1) Transmutation & (2) Biological phenomena. Or I to take over the coming research program, I would put at least 1/3 of the money into these aspects of the phenomenon. Best & Congratulations on the Book, John Bockris - - - - - - - - - - - - - January 28, 2005 Dear John, I am thrilled that you liked the book. There is no one whose opinion I respect more than yours. I agree we need to continue working on conventional alternative energy. Cold fusion may not work, or it may take too long. I also agree that hydrogen is the best means to distribute alternative energy, especially for transportation. I do not think it would be a good idea to build hundreds of new conventional nuclear power plants. They cost too much, and it would take too long. Given present-day technology, wind energy would be a better choice. It would be ~6 times cheaper than conventional fission and it could be built much faster. . . . You wrote: "In my view, there are no solutions we could build now, quickly enough. A government report stated that building 2 nuclear power stations PER WEEK we would need 50 years to build enough nuclear energy machinery to keep CO2 at its present level." That can’t be right . . . There are now 100 nuclear power plants averaging 900 MW electric, and they supply 20% of U.S. power. So 500 would be enough to supply all electricity in the U.S. At 2 per week it would take five years to replace our electric generation capacity. Add another five years and I think we would have enough to replace all energy consumption. Overall energy use is way more than 2 × Electricity. Eyeballing a DoE graph I guess electricity presently supplies about 1/5 of U.S. end-use energy. However, if we had tons of extra electricity, plus a huge supply of hydrogen, we would use them for things like transportation and space heating (with heat pumps), and this would be far more efficient than the direct use of fossil fuel. Electric cars and hydrogen cars would both be far more fuel-efficient than gasoline models. Anyway . . . regarding your pessimistic predictions, naturally I agree that things could go horribly wrong. I made that point in several chapters. As Arthur Clarke says, we have a 51% chance of survival. But I disagree with your view that we do not have the tools or the time. I think that global warming, the population explosion, and other dire problems can probably still be fixed, if only people would summon up the will to get on with it! My worst fear is that serious global warming will begin, and even the right wing conservatives will agree it is happening, but we will still not do anything about it. We will give up. We will be like some of the third class passengers on the Titanic who never even tried to reach the boat deck or launch flotsam to save themselves. I recall during the investigation one of the survivors described a young mother and her child in the third class saloon. The mother was playing the piano with a child sitting next to her, simply waiting for the end, not trying to do anything to save themselves. As I see it, the problem now is to get people to recognize there is a crisis, but there are solutions, and we must get on with the job. Of course there are countless political difficulties. Many are caused by the environmentalists. For example, I think they have oversold global warming. Strange as it may sound, I think they would succeed better if they would stop emphasizing it, and talk about other problems instead. Global warming is seen as a distant potential problem. There are plenty of here-and-now problems with energy, starting with terrorism and the wars in the Middle East. Once we do mobilize I am confident we can fix the problems. I think there are many potential solutions. Cold fusion would be the best and cheapest by far, but wind power, nuclear power, conservation and many others could all be used simultaneously. . . . Automobile efficiency could easily be doubled with innovations such as hybrid motors, and it could be tripled with hydrogen, lighter body materials and better engineering. For that matter, [if people took this so-called war on terror seriously] automobile efficiency could be tripled overnight – I mean literally within 24 hours – if the president were to declare a state of emergency and tell all commuters they must carpool and pick up at least two other people on the way to work. This could be enforced with something like a $20 toll on all cars that drive with a single passenger. The toll would be collected by National Guardsmen posted at the entrances to urban federal highways. Later it would be collected automatically with robotic toll-card devices; if your car did not have four passenger pass cards in the front window, you would pay automatically. If this were a real war, anything like World War II, obviously we would implement steps like that. Gasoline was rationed immediately during World War II, and all civilian automobile production was shut down a few weeks after Pearl Harbor. This sort of thing could be done to solve global warming too. Our situation is analogous to the crisis Britain and the US faced in the late 1930s. The critical question then and now is not whether we have the tools, the skills and the manpower win, but rather: Will we mobilize in time? Freeman Dyson describing what happened after people finally did mobilize after 1939: ". . . [The] experiences of World War II made an indelible impression on people of my generation. At the bottom of our hearts we still believe you can have anything you want in five years if you need it badly enough and if you are prepared to slog your way through the barriers of confusion and incompetence to get it. . . . The accepted wisdom says that, no matter what we decide to do about economic problems, we cannot expect to see any substantial results [for 15 years]. The accepted wisdom is no doubt correct, if we continue to play the game by the rules of today. But anyone who lived through World War II knows that the rules can be changed very fast when the necessity arises." - "Infinite in All Directions," p. 148 To change the subject, your erstwhile student Mizuno almost blew himself up the other day. He was demonstrating a glow discharge experiment to a guest. A few minutes into the run, before the glow discharge phase began, the cell exploded. See attached report. . . . . . . You are the last person on earth who writes letters by hand, and the last person I know personally who uses the US mail. Should I continue to communicate via this channel, or do you also use e-mail? Send me a message via e-mail if you still do. . . . Best Regards, From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 1 12:04:07 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j11K1X3m008108; Tue, 1 Feb 2005 12:03:41 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j11JAqJJ015584; Tue, 1 Feb 2005 11:10:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 11:10:52 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20050201191034.62853.qmail web81108.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 11:10:34 -0800 (PST) From: Jones Beene Subject: RE: Ticking-time-bomb and hybrid vigor To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <1RM4cD.A.ZzD.6Q9_BB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57467 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- Horace Heffner wrote: > If that happens, the only thing likely to save us is out of our control ... namely sudden changes in the ocean currents bringing on a glacial age. Yes. If the statistical projections of rising CO2 continue to hold over the next few years, and nothing new comes on the "alternative-energy" scene, capable of reversing the trend -- then at some high level, perhaps the UN, they might have to actually consider altering the Gulf Stream in order to "Re-Freeze" the Siberian Permaforst which is apparently the largest methane repository. Even now, wooly mammoths have started thawing out from the time period when all those gigatons of methane got frozen into place. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 1 12:29:49 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j11KTT3e022406; Tue, 1 Feb 2005 12:29:29 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j11KTPMS022367; Tue, 1 Feb 2005 12:29:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 12:29:25 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 11:38:35 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Mechanics of magnetism Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57469 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:32 AM 1/31/5, Merlyn wrote: >OK, I've done some more pondering on the whole thing, and I think I may >have an answer. > >Assuming the electric field propagates at c, as the magnetic field is >proven to do, then there would be a notable "dopplering" of the field >gradient surrounding a moving charged particle. > >This Doppler effect would decrease the force on a charged particle ahead >of the moving one and increase the force on a particle behind it. > >A particle at rest WRT the aether would experience a lesser force, and >then a greater force, which would average to be no effect at all. > >A particle moving relative to the aether however would experience a >different force, as the effective field gradients would be modified by the >momentum of the moving particle. > >Identicle charged particles moving in the same direction are not >"attracted" to each other, they are simply repelled less strongly than if >they were stationary. Surrounding electrostatic pressure takes care of >the rest. > >When the particles pass each other moving in opposite directions, the >repulsion is enhanced. > >Perhaps by doing the math related to this idea, one could determine a >difference in magnetic field strength between 2 systems with identical >amperages, but widely different drift speeds. You have to remember that at a given current I that a higher drift speed means a lower (current carrying) charge density. You end up with the exactly same magnetic effects, unless the "drift speed" happens to be very near c. A quantitative analysis of all this was done in Purcell, *Electrcity and Magnetism*, and Shadowitz, *The Electromagnetic Field*. However, it is based on special relativity, the apparent compression of space associated with moving objects (by a factor of gamma). This apparent compression of space containing charge amounts to an increase of apparent charge density rho. In other words: rho = rho_0 * (1 - v^2/c^2)^(-1/2) Starting from this point it is possible to generate ampere's laws, for parallel wires, etc. Thus magnetism is entirely the result of the relative motion of charges. So, differentiating with respect to v, we get d(rho)/dv = (rho_0/c^2) * v * (1 - v^2/c^2)^(-3/2) Where at small c the term (1 - v^2/c^2)^(-3/2) can be ignored so: d(rho)/dv = (rho_0/c^2) * v and from this, applied separately to the moving charge carriers and stationary charges of the two wires of interest, it can be shown the net force is proportional to current squared, etc. This all goes to show that relativistic effects at small velocities multiplied by a huge charge densities can produce ordinary world effects. Another viewpoint is that magnetism is purely the result of the electrostatic force when retardation is considered, i.e. causality. Retardation is the effect of the delay of force transmission. The electrostatic force is transmitted at velocity c. When two bodies are in motion, the force on body A from body B comes from the location of body B at an earlier time, the retarded time. There is a complete quantitative discussion of this and other issues, like relativistic clocks, in Jefimenko's *Retardation and Relativity* (ISBN 0-917406-21-4). This concept is extended to gravity and the cogravitational field (which I called gravimagnetism) in Oleg D. Jefimenko's *Causality, Electromagnetic Induction, and Gravitation* (ISBN 0-917406-12-5). Jefimenko also produces the complete quantitative results you are looking for. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 1 13:43:26 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j11Lh93e021456; Tue, 1 Feb 2005 13:43:10 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j11Lh71h021439; Tue, 1 Feb 2005 13:43:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 13:43:07 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 12:52:23 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: RE: Ticking-time-bomb and hybrid vigor Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57470 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:10 AM 2/1/5, Jones Beene wrote: >--- Horace Heffner wrote: > >> If that happens, the only thing likely to save us is >out of our control ... namely sudden changes in the >ocean currents bringing on a glacial age. > >Yes. If the statistical projections of rising CO2 >continue to hold over the next few years, and nothing >new comes on the "alternative-energy" scene, capable >of reversing the trend -- then at some high level, >perhaps the UN, they might have to actually consider >altering the Gulf Stream in order to "Re-Freeze" the >Siberian Permaforst which is apparently the largest >methane repository. Well, sub-permafrost methane appears to be at greatest immediate peril, certainly the highest *measured* peril, but there is definitiely more offshore methane, by a large factor, than onshore. >Even now, wooly mammoths have >started thawing out from the time period when all >those gigatons of methane got frozen into place. At one time I considered trying to obtain some view property near the Matanuska glacier, but, looking back at photos I had taken of the glacier in 1976, I could see that it won't last long "in the view". Many favorite local glaciers are disappearing. It is really upsetting to see major geological features change so quickly. As for altering the gulf stream, assuming that were technologically feasible, I think there might be some objections from Canada and northern Europe and northern Asia, since they could end up under glaciers. A massive relocation would have to occur. People of this world are just too petty to handle that. We can't even seem to peacefully handle ownership issues over comparatively tiny pieces of land, like Israel, Tibet, or Taiwan. It sometimes seems to me that an international statute of limitations on land claims, though unfair to many at its initiation, would ultimately be a great boon to world peace if combined with a powerful world military force to be used against any territorial invaders. This, however, woud not help achieve a great migration of entire countries from one part of the globe to another. More is required. An alternative to altering ocean currents, or even a means of altering ocean currents, might be to fill space above the equator and into the temperate zones with a partial sun sheild. This might be accomplished by dispersing a reflective powder. This would deny everyone use of the (launch) space above the equator, and might have a significant effect on communications, but it could be much better than the alternatives. The longevity of such a reflective band could be established by choice of altitude for the dispersal. Such a band might significantly reduce the energy expended for night lighting. A collosal heavy earth to orbit capability would clearly be required to get all the materials into space before the day of dispersal. There might only be one chance to get it right. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 1 14:53:55 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j11Mrg3e017116; Tue, 1 Feb 2005 14:53:42 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j11Mrdr9017089; Tue, 1 Feb 2005 14:53:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 14:53:39 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 14:02:56 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Mechanics of magnetism Resent-Message-ID: <1vbtuB.A.4KE.zhAACB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57471 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I wrote: "Jefimenko also produces the complete quantitative results you are looking for." That should have read, "Jefimenko also produces complete quantitative results, but as with the relativistic results of Purcell, Shadowitz, and others, they deny the effect you hope to see, namely an increase in magnetic field with an increase in drift speed." One EM effect of possible interest that does increase with drift speed, i.e. reduced charge carrier density, is the Hall voltage. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 1 18:48:57 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j122mb3e017461; Tue, 1 Feb 2005 18:48:41 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j122mYuQ017433; Tue, 1 Feb 2005 18:48:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 18:48:34 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001e01c508d1$91f448e0$ad037841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: ticking time bomb Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 20:47:43 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001A_01C5089F.46D05D90" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-99.5 required=4.0 tests=HTML_20_30,HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57472 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C5089F.46D05D90 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_001B_01C5089F.46D05D90" ------=_NextPart_001_001B_01C5089F.46D05D90 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankWhile we were sleeping another threat emerges. Our water streams = now have discharge from wastewater treatment plants that do not remove = all exotics like steroids, birth control pills, hormones, antiboitics, = vitamins and a whole host of new virus and resistant strains of bacteria = plus known hydrocarbons etc. One case in North Carolina was described as the " virus from hell". The = people reporting explained the virus was detected in aquatic life in the = estuaries. The source was major hog farming operations that released = untreated waste in the creek feeding the estuary.=20 Some unexplained events reported such as " flesh wasting disease" , = strange cancerous growth on fish, black dead water in the gulf all may = be a result of some of these exotic contaminents. It may be that the = beaches along the coast including the gulf coast may become offlimits = for swimmers. Recently, Houston announced a warning not to eat trout of = other seafood caught in Galveston bay more often than 8 oz per month = because of PCB levels. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_001B_01C5089F.46D05D90 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
While we were sleeping another threat emerges. = Our water=20 streams now have discharge from wastewater treatment plants that  = do not=20 remove all exotics like steroids, birth control pills, hormones, = antiboitics,=20 vitamins and a whole host of new virus and resistant strains of bacteria = plus=20 known hydrocarbons etc.
One case in North Carolina was described as = the " virus=20 from hell". The people reporting explained the virus was detected in = aquatic=20 life in the estuaries. The source was major hog farming operations that = released=20 untreated waste in the creek feeding the estuary.
Some = unexplained =20 events reported such as " flesh wasting disease" , strange cancerous = growth on=20 fish, black dead water in the gulf all may be a result of some of these = exotic=20 contaminents. It may be that the beaches along the coast including the = gulf=20 coast may become offlimits for swimmers. Recently, Houston announced a = warning=20 not to eat trout of other seafood caught in Galveston bay more often = than 8 oz=20 per month because of PCB levels.
 
Richard
 

 

------=_NextPart_001_001B_01C5089F.46D05D90-- ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C5089F.46D05D90 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <001901c508d1$9164b310$ad037841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C5089F.46D05D90-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 1 23:30:28 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j127U430009543; Tue, 1 Feb 2005 23:30:09 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j127TxLv009493; Tue, 1 Feb 2005 23:29:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 23:29:59 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 01:30:46 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: quantum tunneling in biological systems Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="============_-1104793038==_ma============" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57473 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --============_-1104793038==_ma============ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Seen in a newsletter for http://www.the-scientist.com/currentissue Did Enzymes Evolve to Capitalize on Quantum Tunneling Quantum mechanics challenges classical views, and leaves questions in its wake (Mark Greener ) This is very interesting, there's nothing like a practical application to give a practical test of a theory, I always say. --============_-1104793038==_ma============ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" quantum tunneling in biological systems

Did Enzymes Evolve to Capitalize on Quantum Tunneling
Quantum mechanics challenges classical views, and leaves questions in its wake
(Mark Greener )
               

This is very interesting, there's nothing like a practical application to give a practical test of a theory, I always say.
--============_-1104793038==_ma============-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 1 23:31:45 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j127VJ30010079; Tue, 1 Feb 2005 23:31:28 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j127VFC1010031; Tue, 1 Feb 2005 23:31:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 23:31:15 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 01:32:05 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: understanding Laser Propulsion Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: <_s2NkD.A.icC.CHIACB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57474 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I read the book Laser Propulsion,LP, by Unitel-areospace. While I read the words, much of what the author says makes no sense to me. So I've decided to go through it one page at a time and see what comments I get. I've heard about magnetic monopoles for some time. They make a great theory, but I've yet to understand to get one to manifest itself The book says that a proton sets up an electric field when it is motionless, does that ever occur? and that when it is in motion it sets up a magnetic field in three dimensions. A monopole, OTOH, creates a magnetic field when stationary and an electric field when in motion. Then there is the matter of time reversal. The drawing show two loops of wire above one another. A + charged particle is shown moving in between them. When moving between the two loops, the path of the particle is reversed with the reversal of the current direction. The second drawing shows four monopoles above and below. When the + charged particle moves through them it's path is a mirror image. If I could move waves or particles in reverse time, then I could transmit information. Tomorrow's winning lottery numbers for instance. In a telephone conversation with the author, he said that photons have two components, one time forward, the other time reversed. I suppose the problem is separating them. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 2 09:59:20 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j12Hx9Hm012095; Wed, 2 Feb 2005 09:59:10 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j12HwuQ2011980; Wed, 2 Feb 2005 09:58:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 09:58:56 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20050202175849.96686.qmail web54503.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 09:58:49 -0800 (PST) From: Merlyn Subject: Re: Mechanics of magnetism To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1342859215-1107367129=:96385" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57475 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-1342859215-1107367129=:96385 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Thanks Horace, I'll certainly look into that Horace Heffner wrote:I wrote: "Jefimenko also produces the complete quantitative results you are looking for." That should have read, "Jefimenko also produces complete quantitative results, but as with the relativistic results of Purcell, Shadowitz, and others, they deny the effect you hope to see, namely an increase in magnetic field with an increase in drift speed." One EM effect of possible interest that does increase with drift speed, i.e. reduced charge carrier density, is the Hall voltage. Regards, Horace Heffner Merlyn Magickal Engineer and Technical Metaphysicist --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' --0-1342859215-1107367129=:96385 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Thanks Horace, I'll certainly look into that

Horace Heffner <hheffner mtaonline.net> wrote:
I wrote: "Jefimenko also produces the complete quantitative results you are
looking for."

That should have read, "Jefimenko also produces complete quantitative
results, but as with the relativistic results of Purcell, Shadowitz, and
others, they deny the effect you hope to see, namely an increase in
magnetic field with an increase in drift speed."

One EM effect of possible interest that does increase with drift speed,
i.e. reduced charge carrier density, is the Hall voltage.

Regards,

Horace Heffner




Merlyn
Magickal Engineer and Technical Metaphysicist

Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' --0-1342859215-1107367129=:96385-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 2 10:09:23 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j12I97Hm018036; Wed, 2 Feb 2005 10:09:07 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j12I93vA017997; Wed, 2 Feb 2005 10:09:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 10:09:03 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=M5xhmBPsbPhNQlYB94Kp2mR32W6BLwDhZsJxCnYRpo1I2aD1OBMZIoMXWa8LGkAc0k3J96vO1+r4/fvUT+WlCIUEZ8ZyzUSlbklyGMldxJm5eXOClbl90nvIgY+levAgDk+2ACuOBOOinVBQfQGxMXRq5e+kYwkAdbiZW/PzHCk= ; Message-ID: <20050202180850.53607.qmail web54507.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 10:08:50 -0800 (PST) From: Merlyn Subject: Re: understanding Laser Propulsion To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-412009767-1107367730=:52641" Resent-Message-ID: <8VJ_yB.A.JZE.-cRACB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57476 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-412009767-1107367730=:52641 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I think the discussion between Horace and I on the mechanics behind magnetism has an application here. As Horace pointed out to me, Jefimenko has shown how the magnetic field of a moving charge is due to the retardation of the electric field do to signal speed (electrical dopplering). This would imply that there is no way to manifest a magnetic monopole because a stationary magnetic field does not exist. As for time reversal, the time-reversed component is the same as the time-forward component. Observing a time-reversed photon is simply looking at the time forward photon in reverse (like running a video backwards). You are not following a photon traveling backwards in time, you are backtracking the photon that has already passed. thomas malloy wrote: I read the book Laser Propulsion,LP, by Unitel-areospace. While I read the words, much of what the author says makes no sense to me. So I've decided to go through it one page at a time and see what comments I get. I've heard about magnetic monopoles for some time. They make a great theory, but I've yet to understand to get one to manifest itself The book says that a proton sets up an electric field when it is motionless, does that ever occur? and that when it is in motion it sets up a magnetic field in three dimensions. A monopole, OTOH, creates a magnetic field when stationary and an electric field when in motion. Then there is the matter of time reversal. The drawing show two loops of wire above one another. A + charged particle is shown moving in between them. When moving between the two loops, the path of the particle is reversed with the reversal of the current direction. The second drawing shows four monopoles above and below. When the + charged particle moves through them it's path is a mirror image. If I could move waves or particles in reverse time, then I could transmit information. Tomorrow's winning lottery numbers for instance. In a telephone conversation with the author, he said that photons have two components, one time forward, the other time reversed. I suppose the problem is separating them. Merlyn Magickal Engineer and Technical Metaphysicist --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' --0-412009767-1107367730=:52641 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
I think the discussion between Horace and I on the mechanics behind magnetism has an application here.  As Horace pointed out to me, Jefimenko has shown how the magnetic field of a moving charge is due to the retardation of the electric field do to signal speed (electrical dopplering).  This would imply that there is no way to manifest a magnetic monopole because a stationary magnetic field does not exist.
 
As for time reversal, the time-reversed component is the same as the time-forward component.  Observing a time-reversed photon is simply looking at the time forward photon in reverse (like running a video backwards).  You are not following a photon traveling backwards in time, you are backtracking the photon that has already passed. 

thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com> wrote:
I read the book Laser Propulsion,LP, by Unitel-areospace. While I
read the words, much of what the author says makes no sense to me. So
I've decided to go through it one page at a time and see what
comments I get.

I've heard about magnetic monopoles for some time. They make a great
theory, but I've yet to understand to get one to manifest itself The
book says that a proton sets up an electric field when it is
motionless, does that ever occur? and that when it is in motion it
sets up a magnetic field in three dimensions. A monopole, OTOH,
creates a magnetic field when stationary and an electric field when
in motion.

Then there is the matter of time reversal. The drawing show two loops
of wire above one another. A + charged particle is shown moving in
between them. When moving between the two loops, the path of the
particle is reversed with the reversal of the current direction. The
second drawing shows four monopoles above and below. When the +
charged particle moves through them it's path is a mirror image.

If I could move waves or particles in reverse time, then I could
transmit information. Tomorrow's winning lottery numbers for instance.

In a telephone conversation with the author, he said that photons
have two components, one time forward, the other time reversed. I
suppose the problem is separating them.



Merlyn
Magickal Engineer and Technical Metaphysicist

Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' --0-412009767-1107367730=:52641-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 2 10:17:34 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j12IHGHm024184; Wed, 2 Feb 2005 10:17:16 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j12IHC0A024151; Wed, 2 Feb 2005 10:17:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 10:17:12 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20050202101850.0523e0c8 mail.dlsi.net> X-Sender: steven%newenergytimes.com mail.dlsi.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2005 10:19:28 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: 2 Press Releases Posted from Mallove Family Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57477 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: www.eugenemallove.org From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 2 12:13:30 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j12KD9Hm013293; Wed, 2 Feb 2005 12:13:10 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j12KD634013273; Wed, 2 Feb 2005 12:13:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 12:13:06 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050202151208.02b089c8 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2005 15:12:48 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: WAY OFF TOPIC - Doll held hostage Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_20567281==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57478 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_20567281==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I love it! See: "So-called U.S. hostage appears to be toy" http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/02/01/iraq.hostage/index.html - Jed --=====================_20567281==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" I love it! See:

"So-called U.S. hostage appears to be toy"

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/02/01/iraq.hostage/index.html

- Jed
 --=====================_20567281==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 2 12:58:45 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j12KwJHm003548; Wed, 2 Feb 2005 12:58:19 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j12Kw8J3003472; Wed, 2 Feb 2005 12:58:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 12:58:08 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=fHxYO7f3x5oMMsVD/L66ARv9/JbCdMli2JcapTAO3rUABJxTFcj/VmIgYoectCWryxpmMtn2iy1iyA/7PNexjW/GC/Qt/kX8ZHE8R9VyJj4cBD9VNOCnGwQQttHpMI2lZA/QSYaaJYbHwUMWynEAB3uCHqfy79dls/prxbQrWyQ= Message-ID: Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 13:58:02 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: WAY OFF TOPIC - Doll held hostage In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050202151208.02b089c8 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050202151208.02b089c8 pop.mindspring.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57479 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: seriously, i was calling cnn for a bloody hour trying to tell someone. im on totalfark.com, and we had someone find the doll about 6 minutes after ap broke the story. we were laughing our guts out as all the news sources started carrying it, and then the freepers started talking about glass parking lots, and the demunderground people started talking about this is what we get for abughraib, and it was all over a DOLL. that was a gutbuster. On Wed, 02 Feb 2005 15:12:48 -0500, Jed Rothwell wrote: > I love it! See: > > "So-called U.S. hostage appears to be toy" > > http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/02/01/iraq.hostage/index.html > > - Jed > -- Fairy tales are more than true: not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten. -G.K. Chesterton From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 3 00:28:59 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j138SorB005632; Thu, 3 Feb 2005 00:28:50 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j138ScjJ005514; Thu, 3 Feb 2005 00:28:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 00:28:38 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 02:29:35 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Laser Propulsion II Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57480 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Did Einstein believe that it was possible to modify the structure of space itself? Could the space metric by changed by modifying the frequencies which control the matter antimatter cycle? What kind of a wave would that be anyway? How is this similar to a Cooper Pair?, what is their pair phase? how can it be modified to cause them to move in the desired direction? How would we know the what was the pair phase on the other side of the potential barrier? Is their movement, which is described as "almost instantaneously" FTL? Parallel Transport is described as the equivalent of drawing a line on a plane, then rolling it up into a cone, inscribing a curve. A sphere in shown in the cone the surface of which is tangent to the curve. He quotes Fiber Bundles and Quantum Theory, Scientific American, 245:1 July 1981 pp 123-137. The next drawing shows a cone, the point of which in at the intersection point of two lines at 90 degree angles. Orthogonal to the two lines is the center point runs up through the center of the cone. It is described as a charged particle scattered by a fixed monopole. The next image a drawing of both sides of the proposed ship. The shape is described as a cap cone. One side is covered with a grid which is described a the RF / Photon nodes of interference. The small end on the left side is described as the north pole convergent side, the right side describes the small end as the south pole divergent point. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 3 04:01:10 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j13C0urB027471; Thu, 3 Feb 2005 04:00:57 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j13C0sBD027448; Thu, 3 Feb 2005 04:00:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 04:00:54 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=mDA0/HoE78843YKUSLJOfnxzBg4QVOOr6A4ALy+Rfz/BC7Ez6EEeF360SPw+wRK/; Message-ID: <410-2200524311031920 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Spinning Supermagnet Levitation Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 05:00:31 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940effcf4cebae8201aa20e74072cc2bfd4350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.190 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57481 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Tue, 1 Feb 2005 09:03:57 I wrote: > > According to my astute calculations a $2.00 US, ( Indigo part no. 43552) 25 mm diameter NdFeB > Ring Magnet (13,300 Gauss or 1.33 Tesla ) spinning at 7200 rpm can/might develop > a levitation force of about 0.75 pounds. > http://www.indigo.com/magnets/gphmgnts/metric-neodymium-rare-earth-magnets.html > > These experiments (thanks to Colin Quinney) support that contention, but, the force will only be 0.075 lbs ( 34 grams) heavier or lighter at 7200 RPM. http://www.marmet.ca/louis/induction_faraday/kelly/KellyFa3.pdf This ties in nicely with the spinning "Energy/Current Loop" or String Theory. Unfortunately they didn't check for weight change in the experiments. For decades there have been reports of "weight change" gravity effects of electric motors. Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

Tue, 1 Feb 2005 09:03:57  I wrote:
>
> According to my astute calculations a $2.00 US, ( Indigo part no. 43552) 25 mm diameter NdFeB
> Ring Magnet (13,300 Gauss or 1.33 Tesla ) spinning at 7200 rpm can/might develop
> a levitation force of about 0.75 pounds.
>
>
>

These experiments (thanks to Colin Quinney) support that contention, but, the force will
only be 0.075 lbs ( 34 grams) heavier or lighter at 7200 RPM.
 
This ties in nicely with the spinning "Energy/Current Loop" or String Theory.
 
Unfortunately they didn't check for weight change in the experiments.
 
For decades there have been reports of "weight change" gravity effects
of electric motors.
 
Frederick

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 3 05:03:49 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j13D3ZrB019720; Thu, 3 Feb 2005 05:03:36 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j13D3WBt019690; Thu, 3 Feb 2005 05:03:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 05:03:32 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=GXGMz4/qLxVafrk/IIvTAcqZgUHojCawvMqwfT8nRZxXoc/Xc/Fx0bFf+Nn3DBBP; Message-ID: <410-220052431239600 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Spinning Supermagnet Levitation & Gravity Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 06:03:09 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9407b92568e53d94327b90dc7c3b0b9915a350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.117.156 Resent-Message-ID: <0Vb_a.A.bzE.jEiACB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57482 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Kelly's Experiments: http://www.marmet.ca/louis/induction_faraday/kelly/KellyFa3.pdf Suggest that the Zero Field of the spinning magnet or electromagnet is due to a relativistic frame effect. The spin of a "+/- q quark" or electron (+/-) "current or energy-loop" does the same thing by creating a "Hypocharge" (+/- q') field which creates a 1/R^2 gravity force. Or +/- q' from a generated local field E' = k*q'/r^2 for a spinning magnet or electromagnet. OTOH, charge q' can be found by q/gamma where gamma = the square root of the ratio of the electrostatic force to the gravitational force for the quarks or electrons (3.36e18 and 2.04e21 respectively) giving 4.76e-38 and 7.8e-41 coulombs hypocharge for each quark and electron. Dividing the mass of the earth (5.98e24 kg) by the mass of the quark (5.53e-28 kg) equal 1.08e52 quarks with a total hypocharge of 5.15e14 coulombs. Thus a spinning magnet or electromagnet developing a hypocharge of 8.78e-12 coulombs will develop a force F = k * 8.78e-12 * 5.15e14/(6.38e6)^2 = 1.00 newton. Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

Kelly's Experiments:
 
 
Suggest that the Zero Field of the spinning magnet or electromagnet is
due to a relativistic frame effect.
 
The spin of a "+/- q quark" or  electron (+/-) "current or energy-loop" does the same thing
by creating a "Hypocharge" (+/- q') field which creates a 1/R^2 gravity force.
 
Or  +/- q'  from a generated local field E'  = k*q'/r^2 for a spinning magnet or
electromagnet.
OTOH, charge q' can be found by q/gamma where gamma = the square root
of the ratio of the electrostatic force to the gravitational force for the quarks
or electrons (3.36e18 and 2.04e21 respectively) giving  4.76e-38 and 7.8e-41
coulombs hypocharge for each quark and electron.
Dividing the mass of the earth (5.98e24 kg) by the mass of the quark (5.53e-28 kg)
equal 1.08e52 quarks with a total hypocharge of 5.15e14 coulombs.
 
Thus a spinning magnet or electromagnet developing a hypocharge of 8.78e-12
coulombs will develop a force F = k * 8.78e-12 * 5.15e14/(6.38e6)^2 = 1.00 newton.
 
Frederick
 
 
 
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 3 07:36:12 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j13FZtrB018709; Thu, 3 Feb 2005 07:35:55 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j13FZn8O018662; Thu, 3 Feb 2005 07:35:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 07:35:49 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <3k7897$mr36la mxip12a.cluster1.charter.net> X-Ironport-AV: i="3.88,176,1102309200"; d="scan'208"; a="766614186:sNHT15233278" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.12 (webedge20-101-197-20030912) From: To: Subject: There is No Tomorrow, by Bill Moyers Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 15:35:39 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57483 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Vorts, An article recently published in the Minneapolis Star Tribune written by Bill Moyers was brought to my attention. While not completely on topic, it is not exactly off topic either particularly when one considers that fact that certain vortexians have occasionally voiced their personal beliefs on the topic of Armageddon. Bill's article does discuss the mismanagement of our nation's energy policy, which is definitely on-topic. Something else to consider: While Bill Moyers is not only an excellent journalist who has produced wonderful PBS programs like "Joseph Campbell and Power of Myth" (J. Campbell: 1904 - 1987, available at amazon.com), he is also an ordained Southern Baptist minister. Please keep this in mind when reading Mr. Moyers' essay: For references check out: http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=41&ItemID=7158 ------------------------------------------ Bill Moyers: There is no tomorrow Bill Moyers Published January 30, 2005 / Mpls Star/Tribune One of the biggest changes in politics in my lifetime is that the delusional is no longer marginal. It has come in from the fringe, to sit in the seat of power in the Oval Office and in Congress. For the first time in our history, ideology and theology hold a monopoly of power in Washington. Theology asserts propositions that cannot be proven true; ideologues hold stoutly to a worldview despite being contradicted by what is generally accepted as reality. When ideology and theology couple, their offspring are not always bad but they are always blind. And there is the danger: voters and politicians alike, oblivious to the facts. Remember James Watt, President Ronald Reagan's first secretary of the interior? My favorite online environmental journal, the ever-engaging Grist, reminded us recently of how James Watt told the U.S. Congress that protecting natural resources was unimportant in light of the imminent return of Jesus Christ. In public testimony he said, "after the last tree is felled, Christ will come back." Beltway elites snickered. The press corps didn't know what he was talking about. But James Watt was serious. So were his compatriots out across the country. They are the people who believe the Bible is literally true -- one-third of the American electorate, if a recent Gallup poll is accurate. In this past election several million good and decent citizens went to the polls believing in the rapture index. That's right -- the rapture index. Google it and you will find that the best-selling books in America today are the 12 volumes of the "Left Behind" series written by the Christian fundamentalist and religious-right warrior Timothy LaHaye. These true believers subscribe to a fantastical theology concocted in the 19th century by a couple of immigrant preachers who took disparate passages from the Bible and wove them into a narrative that has captivated the imagination of millions of Americans. Its outline is rather simple, if bizarre (the British writer George Monbiot recently did a brilliant dissection of it and I am indebted to him for adding to my own understanding): Once Israel has occupied the rest of its "biblical lands," legions of the antichrist will attack it, triggering a final showdown in the valley of Armageddon. As the Jews who have not been converted are burned, the messiah will return for the rapture. True believers will be lifted out of their clothes and transported to Heaven, where, seated next to the right hand of God, they will watch their political and religious opponents suffer plagues of boils, sores, locusts and frogs during the several years of tribulation that follow. I'm not making this up. Like Monbiot, I've read the literature. I've reported on these people, following some of them from Texas to the West Bank. They are sincere, serious and polite as they tell you they feel called to help bring the rapture on as fulfillment of biblical prophecy. That's why they have declared solidarity with Israel and the Jewish settlements and backed up their support with money and volunteers. It's why the invasion of Iraq for them was a warm-up act, predicted in the Book of Revelations where four angels "which are bound in the great river Euphrates will be released to slay the third part of man." A war with Islam in the Middle East is not something to be feared but welcomed -- an essential conflagration on the road to redemption. The last time I Googled it, the rapture index stood at 144 -- just one point below the critical threshold when the whole thing will blow, the son of God will return, the righteous will enter Heaven and sinners will be condemne! d to eternal hellfire. So what does this mean for public policy and the environment? Go to Grist to read a remarkable work of reporting by the journalist Glenn Scherer -- "The Road to Environmental Apocalypse." Read it and you will see how millions of Christian fundamentalists may believe that environmental destruction is not only to be disregarded but actually welcomed -- even hastened -- as a sign of the coming apocalypse. As Grist makes clear, we're not talking about a handful of fringe lawmakers who hold or are beholden to these beliefs. Nearly half the U.S. Congress before the recent election -- 231 legislators in total and more since the election -- are backed by the religious right. Forty-five senators and 186 members of the 108th Congress earned 80 to 100 percent approval ratings from the three most influential Christian right advocacy groups. They include Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist, Assistant Majority Leader Mitch McConnell, Conference Chair Rick Santorum of Pennsylvania, Policy Chair Jon Kyl of Arizona, House Speaker Dennis Hastert and Majority Whip Roy Blunt. The only Democrat to score 100 percent with the Christian coalition was Sen. Zell Miller of Georgia, who recently quoted from the biblical book of Amos on the Senate floor: "The days will come, sayeth the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land." He seemed to be relishing the thought. And why not? There's a constituency for it. A 2002 Time-CNN poll found that 59 percent of Americans believe that the prophecies found in the book of Revelations are going to come true. Nearly one-quarter think the Bible predicted the 9/11 attacks. Drive across the country with your radio tuned to the more than 1,600 Christian radio stations, or in the motel turn on some of the 250 Christian TV stations, and you can hear some of this end-time gospel. And you will come to understand why people under the spell of such potent prophecies cannot be expected, as Grist puts it, "to worry about the environment. Why care about the earth, when the droughts, floods, famine and pestilence brought by ecological collapse are signs of the apocalypse foretold in the Bible? Why care about global climate change when you and yours will be rescued in the rapture? And why care about converting from oil to solar when the same God who performed the miracle of the loaves and fishes can whip up a few! billion barrels of light crude with a word?" Because these people believe that until Christ does return, the Lord will provide. One of their texts is a high school history book, "America's Providential History." You'll find there these words: "The secular or socialist has a limited-resource mentality and views the world as a pie ... that needs to be cut up so everyone can get a piece." However, "[t]he Christian knows that the potential in God is unlimited and that there is no shortage of resources in God's earth ... while many secularists view the world as overpopulated, Christians know that God has made the earth sufficiently large with plenty of resources to accommodate all of the people." No wonder Karl Rove goes around the White House whistling that militant hymn, "Onward Christian Soldiers." He turned out millions of the foot soldiers on Nov. 2, including many who have made the apocalypse a powerful driving force in modern American politics. It is hard for the journalist to report a story like this with any credibility. So let me put it on a personal level. I myself don't know how to be in this world without expecting a confident future and getting up every morning to do what I can to bring it about. So I have always been an optimist. Now, however, I think of my friend on Wall Street whom I once asked: "What do you think of the market?"I'm optimistic," he answered. "Then why do you look so worried?" And he answered: "Because I am not sure my optimism is justified." I'm not, either. Once upon a time I agreed with Eric Chivian and the Center for Health and the Global Environment that people will protect the natural environment when they realize its importance to their health and to the health and lives of their children. Now I am not so sure. It's not that I don't want to believe that -- it's just that I read the news and connect the dots. I read that the administrator of the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency has declared the election a mandate for President Bush on the environment. This for an administration: * That wants to rewrite the Clean Air Act, the Clean Water Act and the Endangered Species Act protecting rare plant and animal species and their habitats, as well as the National Environmental Policy Act, which requires the government to judge beforehand whether actions might damage natural resources. * That wants to relax pollution limits for ozone; eliminate vehicle tailpipe inspections, and ease pollution standards for cars, sport-utility vehicles and diesel-powered big trucks and heavy equipment. * That wants a new international audit law to allow corporations to keep certain information about environmental problems secret from the public. * That wants to drop all its new-source review suits against polluting, coal-fired power plants and weaken consent decrees reached earlier with coal companies. * That wants to open the Arctic [National] Wildlife Refuge to drilling and increase drilling in Padre Island National Seashore, the longest stretch of undeveloped barrier island in the world and the last great coastal wild land in America. I read the news just this week and learned how the Environmental Protection Agency had planned to spend $9 million -- $2 million of it from the administration's friends at the American Chemistry Council -- to pay poor families to continue to use pesticides in their homes. These pesticides have been linked to neurological damage in children, but instead of ordering an end to their use, the government and the industry were going to offer the families $970 each, as well as a camcorder and children's clothing, to serve as guinea pigs for the study. I read all this in the news. I read the news just last night and learned that the administration's friends at the International Policy Network, which is supported by Exxon Mobil and others of like mind, have issued a new report that climate change is "a myth, sea levels are not rising" [and] scientists who believe catastrophe is possible are "an embarrassment." I not only read the news but the fine print of the recent appropriations bill passed by Congress, with the obscure (and obscene) riders attached to it: a clause removing all endangered species protections from pesticides; language prohibiting judicial review for a forest in Oregon; a waiver of environmental review for grazing permits on public lands; a rider pressed by developers to weaken protection for crucial habitats in California. I read all this and look up at the pictures on my desk, next to the computer -- pictures of my grandchildren. I see the future looking back at me from those photographs and I say, "Father, forgive us, for we know not what we do." And then I am stopped short by the thought: "That's not right. We do know what we are doing. We are stealing their future. Betraying their trust. Despoiling their world." And I ask myself: Why? Is it because we don't care? Because we are greedy? Because we have lost our capacity for outrage, our ability to sustain indignation at injustice? What has happened to our moral imagination? On the heath Lear asks Gloucester: "How do you see the world?" And Gloucester, who is blind, answers: "I see it feelingly.'" I see it feelingly. The news is not good these days. I can tell you, though, that as a journalist I know the news is never the end of the story. The news can be the truth that sets us free -- not only to feel but to fight for the future we want. And the will to fight is the antidote to despair, the cure for cynicism, and the answer to those faces looking back at me from those photographs on my desk. What we need is what the ancient Israelites called hochma -- the science of the heart ... the capacity to see, to feel and then to act as if the future depended on you. Believe me, it does. ========== Bill Moyers was host until recently of the weekly public affairs series "NOW with Bill Moyers" on PBS. This article is adapted from AlterNet, where it first appeared. The text is taken from Moyers' remarks upon receiving the Global Environmental Citizen Award from the Center for Health and the Global Environment at Harvard Medical School. © Copyright 2005 Star Tribune. All rights reserved. --------------- Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 3 10:17:26 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j13IHFrB002655; Thu, 3 Feb 2005 10:17:15 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j13IHB9n002624; Thu, 3 Feb 2005 10:17:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 10:17:11 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20050203101857.00ae9dc8 mail.dlsi.net> X-Sender: steven%newenergytimes.com mail.dlsi.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2005 10:19:35 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: There is No Tomorrow, by Bill Moyers In-Reply-To: <3k7897$mr36la mxip12a.cluster1.charter.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57484 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Steven, Thanks for the article. This is scary. S From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 3 11:36:43 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j13JaFrB007156; Thu, 3 Feb 2005 11:36:16 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j13JaBML007117; Thu, 3 Feb 2005 11:36:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 11:36:11 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2005 14:34:14 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: FW: on physics In-reply-to: To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: <_wJ--B.A.GvB.q0nACB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57485 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I know that this defies the law of gravity, but, you see, I never studied law. -- Bugs Bunny ...physicists, like theologians, are wont to deny that any system is in principle beyond the scope of their subject. -- Paul Charles William Davies, Superstrings: A Theory of Everything Physics is to Math what Sex is to Masturbation -- Richard Feynman From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 3 11:38:08 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j13JbmrB007838; Thu, 3 Feb 2005 11:37:52 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j13JbkEc007812; Thu, 3 Feb 2005 11:37:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 11:37:46 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050203143639.02ab0460 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2005 14:37:29 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: There is No Tomorrow, by Bill Moyers In-Reply-To: <3k7897$mr36la mxip12a.cluster1.charter.net> References: <3k7897$mr36la mxip12a.cluster1.charter.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_1010828==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57486 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_1010828==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed If anyone can find a way to contact Moyers, by e-mail or regular mail, please let me know his address. I did some Googling but I did not find anything. - Jed --=====================_1010828==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" If anyone can find a way to contact Moyers, by e-mail or regular mail, please let me know his address. I did some Googling but I did not find anything.

- Jed
 --=====================_1010828==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 3 11:53:46 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j13JrUrB014204; Thu, 3 Feb 2005 11:53:31 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j13JrRMl014181; Thu, 3 Feb 2005 11:53:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 11:53:27 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2005 14:53:10 -0500 From: Erikbaard aol.com To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: There is No Tomorrow, by Bill Moyers MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <44EE4205.0926040B.0242793D aol.com> X-Mailer: Atlas Mailer 2.0 X-AOL-IP: 199.219.144.50 X-AOL-Language: english Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57487 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi All, I'm not sure if this comforts anyone, but there's a small newish movement called "Creation Care." It's environmentalism for evangelicals: http://www.creationcare.org/ Another side note is that the Catholic church, among other Christian denominations, is strongly pro-environment. For the cardinals, environmentalism is part of the pro-life "seamless garment" or "seamless tapestry" that also includes it's stances against abortion, euthenasia, war, capital punishment, and poverty. Sadly, I know plenty of Catholics who are against abortion but pro-war, pro-death penalty, calous about poverty, and reckless with the ecosystem. Oh, and they are shocked when I tell them the pope agrees with evolutionary theory and that the Big Bang was proposed by a Catholic priest. Ironically, LeMaitre was at first assailed for trying to worm Christian theology into cosmology because the Big Bang smacked of a moment of creation. Best regards, Erik Baard (Full disclosure: the full name is Erik Christian Baard) :) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 3 12:25:38 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j13KPIrB029298; Thu, 3 Feb 2005 12:25:23 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j13KPFWU029239; Thu, 3 Feb 2005 12:25:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 12:25:15 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2005 15:25:04 -0500 From: Erikbaard aol.com To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: There is No Tomorrow, by Bill Moyers MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <2087A77E.542CEE90.0242793D aol.com> X-Mailer: Atlas Mailer 2.0 X-AOL-IP: 199.219.152.29 X-AOL-Language: english Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57488 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: please forgive typos and glitches in my post -- i'm trying to work in a library seated next to a woman who is a spinning vortex of mucus. erik baard From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 3 12:32:56 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j13KWarB032255; Thu, 3 Feb 2005 12:32:40 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j13KWYUi032230; Thu, 3 Feb 2005 12:32:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 12:32:34 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <3khj62$m8h883 mxip13a.cluster1.charter.net> X-Ironport-AV: i="3.88,176,1102309200"; d="scan'208"; a="747151619:sNHT15022860" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.12 (webedge20-101-197-20030912) From: To: Subject: Re: There is No Tomorrow, by Bill Moyers Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 20:32:22 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <9hVaYC.A.i3H.hpoACB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57489 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: Erikbaard aol.com > please forgive typos and glitches in my post -- i'm > trying to work in a library seated next to a woman who > is a spinning vortex of mucus. > > erik baard Hope you got your flu shot! ;-) "Follow your bliss!" - Joseph Campbell Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 3 12:50:04 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j13KnerB007720; Thu, 3 Feb 2005 12:49:41 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j13KncQ5007696; Thu, 3 Feb 2005 12:49:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 12:49:38 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "John Steck" To: Subject: RE: There is No Tomorrow, by Bill Moyers Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 14:45:09 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-Mailer: SecExMail Home Edition 1.51, Build: 2092 In-Reply-To: <2087A77E.542CEE90.0242793D aol.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j13KnarB007649 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57490 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Is she showing any signs of OU or levitation? -john -----Original Message----- From: Erikbaard aol.com [mailto:Erikbaard@aol.com] Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 2:25 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: There is No Tomorrow, by Bill Moyers please forgive typos and glitches in my post -- i'm trying to work in a library seated next to a woman who is a spinning vortex of mucus. erik baard -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.5 - Release Date: 03-Feb-05 Defend your privacy! Encrypt your email today! http://www.bytefusion.com/secexmail ---Tag My Public Key--- a2V5aWQ6IHs4NTYwMzQxMy0yNjU2LTQxRDUtOTMwRi00ODM1 NzM1RDE1MzV9DQpvd25lcjogSm9obl9TdGVjaw0KZW1haWw6 IGpvaG5zdGVja0B0ZXRyYWhlbGl4LmNvbQ0KZW5hYmxlZDog eWVzDQpvcHRpb25zOiBub25lDQoNCi0tLS0tQkVHSU4gUlNB IFBVQkxJQyBLRVktLS0tLQpNSUlCQ2dLQ0FRRUF6c01tMEdk c2V4Z0RCVDNGZW5NRktLcWRyZ0t6ZzhtY3I1Y2VoMGZUVFk4 bEluTDFOOUx1CjBVZnc3em9zYk1FN3g1TW92YTkxL3VRMmN1 cVZYWllaWEt3YVNTbExUc0ZtWWJISW1Pd2hEaC9sekM1MDZk aGYKT2xZZXNlaE5lbXJ5UVkyY2pOVlNUcFExWkh4Z0pZd0Zn Y1B3K2dyT292MGY5dFdzVTE4V2pUdDYwUlBJMnUzQworSkxa SHZ4b052eVdSa3BnaHA5Ung4a2lqVmV3c2MrQzhrdEx4c1JN UmQ0czRkaWhHbDhvTW90SEpXZm55ZS9UClhHK245Y1kwUUVE UGV2dXYyQ3FJZkErSjdmK1BML0NiUC80N1ZNYVFxT05jWEdF L1orR09xbWxINlJ1YTI5eHYKc2hQdFo5YVMwVkN4NHV2TW5S NDNvcjdFdUxPNUh1T1dnUUlEQVFBQgotLS0tLUVORCBSU0Eg UFVCTElDIEtFWS0tLS0tCg0K ---End SecExMail Tag--- ---Tag My Public Key--- a2V5aWQ6IHs4NTYwMzQxMy0yNjU2LTQxRDUtOTMwRi00ODM1 NzM1RDE1MzV9DQpvd25lcjogSm9obl9TdGVjaw0KZW1haWw6 IGpvaG5zdGVja0B0ZXRyYWhlbGl4LmNvbQ0KZW5hYmxlZDog eWVzDQpvcHRpb25zOiBub25lDQoNCi0tLS0tQkVHSU4gUlNB IFBVQkxJQyBLRVktLS0tLQpNSUlCQ2dLQ0FRRUF6c01tMEdk c2V4Z0RCVDNGZW5NRktLcWRyZ0t6ZzhtY3I1Y2VoMGZUVFk4 bEluTDFOOUx1CjBVZnc3em9zYk1FN3g1TW92YTkxL3VRMmN1 cVZYWllaWEt3YVNTbExUc0ZtWWJISW1Pd2hEaC9sekM1MDZk aGYKT2xZZXNlaE5lbXJ5UVkyY2pOVlNUcFExWkh4Z0pZd0Zn Y1B3K2dyT292MGY5dFdzVTE4V2pUdDYwUlBJMnUzQworSkxa SHZ4b052eVdSa3BnaHA5Ung4a2lqVmV3c2MrQzhrdEx4c1JN UmQ0czRkaWhHbDhvTW90SEpXZm55ZS9UClhHK245Y1kwUUVE UGV2dXYyQ3FJZkErSjdmK1BML0NiUC80N1ZNYVFxT05jWEdF L1orR09xbWxINlJ1YTI5eHYKc2hQdFo5YVMwVkN4NHV2TW5S NDNvcjdFdUxPNUh1T1dnUUlEQVFBQgotLS0tLUVORCBSU0Eg UFVCTElDIEtFWS0tLS0tCg0K ---End SecExMail Tag--- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 3 12:51:19 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j13KorrB008380; Thu, 3 Feb 2005 12:50:58 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j13Koox3008358; Thu, 3 Feb 2005 12:50:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 12:50:50 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050203151937.02aeb820 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2005 15:50:41 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: There is No Tomorrow, by Bill Moyers In-Reply-To: <44EE4205.0926040B.0242793D aol.com> References: <44EE4205.0926040B.0242793D aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_4270890==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57491 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_4270890==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Erikbaard aol.com wrote: >Sadly, I know plenty of Catholics who are against abortion but pro-war, >pro-death penalty, calous about poverty, and reckless with the ecosystem. >Oh, and they are shocked when I tell them the pope agrees with >evolutionary theory and that the Big Bang was proposed by a Catholic priest. The Catholic Church endorsed evolution early in the 20th century, around 1911 as I recall. Arthur C. Clarke discussed this in an essay. I know little about theology, but it seems to me that opposing evolution based on it makes about as much sense as opposing the germ theory, Newton's laws, or the value of pi, which is reportedly 3.0 according some readings of the Bible. My sense is that the opposition has little to do with religion. It is politics disguised as religion. I am pretty sure the "No Tomorrow" crowd represented by James Watt are mainly using this as a cover to wreak havoc on the environment for profit. If they really thought there will be no tomorrow, they would not go to the trouble to gut environmental laws, cutting trees and make obscene profits. What is the point of making a pile of money if the world is coming to an end? Often opposition is triggered by conflicts with premodern folk beliefs and superstitions. In Japan I think ~95% of people believe in evolution, whereas in the US it is roughly 50%. You might think this indicates the Japanese are better educated, more rational, or less superstitious than Americans. I doubt that. It just happens that evolution does not conflict with their folk beliefs. In other cases, where modern discoveries do conflict with traditional beliefs or values, I expect about half the Japanese population refuses to go along. The situation was complicated by 20th-century wars. Religion and superstition in Japan and Western Europe were knocked flat by WWI and WWII. Large numbers of people stopped believing, and the temples and churches never recovered. People who claim "there are no atheists in foxholes" don't know what they are talking about! I would not know about battlefields but I know what happens to civilian populations subjected to bombing. As the Japanese anthropologist Robert Smith put it, the Japanese leaders and high priests promised that the Ancestral Gods and Kamikaze would defend them, but it didn't work, so people stopped believing in Gods. The Kamikaze pilots never believed in them in the first place. At least the one I knew did not. - Jed --=====================_4270890==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Erikbaard aol.com wrote:

Sadly, I know plenty of Catholics who are against abortion but pro-war, pro-death penalty, calous about poverty, and reckless with the ecosystem. Oh, and they are shocked when I tell them the pope agrees with evolutionary theory and that the Big Bang was proposed by a Catholic priest.

The Catholic Church endorsed evolution early in the 20th century, around 1911 as I recall. Arthur C. Clarke discussed this in an essay. I know little about theology, but it seems to me that opposing evolution based on it makes about as much sense as opposing the germ theory, Newton's laws, or the value of pi, which is reportedly 3.0 according some readings of the Bible. My sense is that the opposition has little to do with religion. It is politics disguised as religion. I am pretty sure the "No Tomorrow" crowd represented by James Watt are mainly using this as a cover to wreak havoc on the environment for profit. If they really thought there will be no tomorrow, they would not go to the trouble to gut environmental laws, cutting trees and make obscene profits. What is the point of making a pile of money if the world is coming to an end?

Often opposition is triggered by conflicts with premodern folk beliefs and superstitions. In Japan I think ~95% of people believe in evolution, whereas in the US it is roughly 50%. You might think this indicates the Japanese are better educated, more rational, or less superstitious than Americans. I doubt that. It just happens that evolution does not conflict with their folk beliefs. In other cases, where modern discoveries do conflict with traditional beliefs or values, I expect about half the Japanese population refuses to go along.

The situation was complicated by 20th-century wars. Religion and superstition in Japan and Western Europe were knocked flat by WWI and WWII. Large numbers of people stopped believing, and the temples and churches never recovered. People who claim "there are no atheists in foxholes" don't know what they are talking about! I would not know about battlefields but I know what happens to civilian populations subjected to bombing. As the Japanese anthropologist Robert Smith put it, the Japanese leaders and high priests promised that the Ancestral Gods and Kamikaze would defend them, but it didn't work, so people stopped believing in Gods. The Kamikaze pilots never believed in them in the first place. At least the one I knew did not.

- Jed
--=====================_4270890==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 3 13:02:15 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j13L1vrB013016; Thu, 3 Feb 2005 13:01:57 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j13L1tW6012992; Thu, 3 Feb 2005 13:01:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 13:01:55 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050203155356.02ae7420 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2005 16:01:15 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: There is No Tomorrow, by Bill Moyers In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050203151937.02aeb820 pop.mindspring.com> References: <44EE4205.0926040B.0242793D aol.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050203151937.02aeb820 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_4917828==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57492 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_4917828==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I wrote: "The Kamikaze pilots never believed in [the Gods] them in the first place. At least the one I knew did not." I should say ones. I knew two, and read books by three others. Obviously, these particular Kamikaze pilots never made flew their missions, or they would not have been around to discuss their experiences with me. Anyway, they were technically well-educated engineering oriented people. During the war and later they disdained "religious mumbo-jumbo" as one of them put it. See, for example, R. Nagatsuka, "I Was a Kamikaze," (Macmillan, 1972). - Jed --=====================_4917828==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" I wrote:

"The Kamikaze pilots never believed in [the Gods] them in the first place. At least the one I knew did not."

I should say ones. I knew two, and read books by three others. Obviously, these particular Kamikaze pilots never made flew their missions, or they would not have been around to discuss their experiences with me. Anyway, they were technically well-educated engineering oriented people. During the war and later they disdained "religious mumbo-jumbo" as one of them put it. See, for example, R. Nagatsuka, "I Was a Kamikaze," (Macmillan, 1972).

- Jed
 --=====================_4917828==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 3 13:12:53 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j13LCUrB017584; Thu, 3 Feb 2005 13:12:30 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j13LCPWA017539; Thu, 3 Feb 2005 13:12:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 13:12:25 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2005 16:12:05 -0500 From: Erikbaard aol.com To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: There is No Tomorrow, by Bill Moyers MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <64CB3F0E.27564A17.0242793D aol.com> X-Mailer: Atlas Mailer 2.0 X-AOL-IP: 199.219.152.29 X-AOL-Language: english Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57493 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed and I both spent some time in Japanese culture, and he may greatly disagree with me. As I see it, Japanese militarism centralized Shinto worship to an unprecedented by putting greater emphasis on the role of the Emperor. After defeat and occupation, state-sponsored Shinto was taboo (and Americans deliberately cut the emperor down to size while leaving him on the throne for stability's sake), but a spiritual void remained. Christianity, ironically, had a strong foothold...in Nagasaki. So while Christianity took off in Korea, it didn't spread much in Japan. Instead, Japan has sprouted one New Age sect after another, some more harmful than others. Many are politically influential though because they can drive voters to candidates. During the height of Japan's corruption in the 80s and early 90s, companies would donate cash to nonprofit front groups for religious sects (often peace groups) who would push believers to vote for candidates who would in turn grant favors to the donating companies! Erik Baard From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 3 13:29:33 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j13LTMrB025439; Thu, 3 Feb 2005 13:29:22 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j13LTJXk025414; Thu, 3 Feb 2005 13:29:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 13:29:19 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: There is No Tomorrow, by Bill Moyers Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2005 08:29:09 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <44EE4205.0926040B.0242793D aol.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050203151937.02aeb820@pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050203151937.02aeb820 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j13LTFrB025349 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57494 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jed Rothwell's message of Thu, 03 Feb 2005 15:50:41 -0500: Hi, [snip] >on the environment for profit. If they really thought there will be no >tomorrow, they would not go to the trouble to gut environmental laws, >cutting trees and make obscene profits. What is the point of making a pile >of money if the world is coming to an end? Thanks Jed, for revealing the inherent contradiction, and showing the populace precisely how they are being exploited. We need more such insight. [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 3 13:43:00 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j13LgmrB031442; Thu, 3 Feb 2005 13:42:49 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j13Lgg6m031408; Thu, 3 Feb 2005 13:42:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 13:42:42 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050203162025.02ae5630 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2005 16:42:29 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: There is No Tomorrow, by Bill Moyers In-Reply-To: <64CB3F0E.27564A17.0242793D aol.com> References: <64CB3F0E.27564A17.0242793D aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_7384281==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57495 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_7384281==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Erikbaard aol.com wrote: >Jed and I both spent some time in Japanese culture, and he may greatly >disagree with me. As I see it, Japanese militarism centralized Shinto >worship to an unprecedented by putting greater emphasis on the role of the >Emperor. After defeat and occupation, state-sponsored Shinto was taboo >(and Americans deliberately cut the emperor down to size while leaving him >on the throne for stability's sake), but a spiritual void remained. I do not think that had much to do with it. Serious state-sponsored religion only began around 1880, and most of the "ancient Shinto beliefs" were invented at that time, in a conservative backlash against Westernization. (This was also when the U.S. "rapture" beliefs were "concocted," according to Moyers.) And the Americans did nothing to disestablish Buddhism. Furthermore, the populations in European countries were equally disenchanted with religion after the war. (At least in England, France and the Netherlands. I have not read about Germany.) The ancient Japanese tradition of lifetime employment began around 1920, by the way. A lot of these timeless traditions go back as far as Rudolf the Red Nosed Reindeer (1939). >So while Christianity took off in Korea, it didn't spread much in Japan. >Instead, Japan has sprouted one New Age sect after another, some more >harmful than others. There have been quite a number of them, and one of them formed a major political party, the Komeito. But I do not think their influence is great, and the percentage of the population that reports belief in God is low. Of course this is a very complicated subject because of cultural differences, as you can tell from this essay, which begins with a quote from my old Prof. Robert Smith: http://www.japanesestudies.org.uk/discussionpapers/Fitzgerald.html - Jed --=====================_7384281==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Erikbaard aol.com wrote:

Jed and I both spent some time in Japanese culture, and he may greatly disagree with me. As I see it, Japanese militarism centralized Shinto worship to an unprecedented by putting greater emphasis on the role of the Emperor. After defeat and occupation, state-sponsored Shinto was taboo (and Americans deliberately cut the emperor down to size while leaving him on the throne for stability's sake), but a spiritual void remained.

I do not think that had much to do with it. Serious state-sponsored religion only began around 1880, and most of the "ancient Shinto beliefs" were invented at that time, in a conservative backlash against Westernization. (This was also when the U.S. "rapture" beliefs were "concocted," according to Moyers.) And the Americans did nothing to disestablish Buddhism. Furthermore, the populations in European countries were equally disenchanted with religion after the war. (At least in England, France and the Netherlands. I have not read about Germany.)

The ancient Japanese tradition of lifetime employment began around 1920, by the way. A lot of these timeless traditions go back as far as Rudolf the Red Nosed Reindeer (1939).


So while Christianity took off in Korea, it didn't spread much in Japan. Instead, Japan has sprouted one New Age sect after another, some more harmful than others.

There have been quite a number of them, and one of them formed a major political party, the Komeito. But I do not think their influence is great, and the percentage of the population that reports belief in God is low.

Of course this is a very complicated subject because of cultural differences, as you can tell from this essay, which begins with a quote from my old Prof. Robert Smith:

http://www.japanesestudies.org.uk/discussionpapers/Fitzgerald.html

- Jed
--=====================_7384281==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 3 13:53:09 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j13LqsrB003961; Thu, 3 Feb 2005 13:52:54 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j13LqoSv003932; Thu, 3 Feb 2005 13:52:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 13:52:50 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2005 16:52:35 -0500 From: Erikbaard aol.com To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: There is No Tomorrow, by Bill Moyers MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <6B24DE61.3B27B26E.0242793D aol.com> X-Mailer: Atlas Mailer 2.0 X-AOL-IP: 199.219.152.29 X-AOL-Language: english Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57496 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Okay, there are several arguments here with which I disagree, but this will take us waaaaaaaaay off topic! :) Erik From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 3 14:04:49 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j13M4UrB008443; Thu, 3 Feb 2005 14:04:30 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j13M4Sqs008418; Thu, 3 Feb 2005 14:04:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 14:04:28 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 15:04:16 -0700 Message-Id: <200502031504.AA722142082 mail1.myexcel.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: "Jeff and Dorothy Kooistra" Reply-To: X-Sender: To: Subject: Re: There is No Tomorrow, by Bill Moyers X-Mailer: Resent-Message-ID: <-zRT9B.A.XDC.r_pACB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57497 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Now Mr. Orionworks, You are certainly old and experienced enough in real life by this time to have noticed that Bill Moyers is an idiot. He is not an excellent journalist but a propagandist, and never one to let the truth get in the way of his axe grinding. He is an ordained Southern Baptist minister the same way some pedophiles are ordained priests. Before the end of his first sentence he has already, as usual, made it clear that he thinks everyone who disagrees with him is likely delusional. Why read this crap? Why post it here? Here is our excellent "journalist" at work; here is our ordained Southen Baptist minister showing his deep learning: "the book of Revelations" It's R-E-V-E-L-A-T-I-O-N Geez! Kooistra From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 3 14:29:28 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j13MTBrB021753; Thu, 3 Feb 2005 14:29:11 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j13MT5DY021688; Thu, 3 Feb 2005 14:29:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 14:29:05 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002301c50a3f$c0588010$0100007f xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: there is no tomorrow, by Bill Moyers Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 16:28:18 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001F_01C50A0D.5E8F0110" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-99.2 required=4.0 tests=HTML_30_40,HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57498 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01C50A0D.5E8F0110 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0020_01C50A0D.5E920E50" ------=_NextPart_001_0020_01C50A0D.5E920E50 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankBill Moyers is a paid by PBS to mould popular opinion. PBS is = partially funded by our tax dollars. Moyers has an agenda just like any = political lobbyist. They wear different hats, but their message is = always the same =20 " trust me". Perhaps it is good for the American people to return to the skepticism = and distrust of politicians that dominated the nation at the time of its = birth. Can anyone tell the difference between the Republicans and the = Democrats in todays politics ?=20 In Washington, the game is based on the premise that it is not nearly as = important to win.. as it is.. to make sure the other guy loses. Go = figure =20 Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0020_01C50A0D.5E920E50 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Bill Moyers is a paid by PBS to mould popular = opinion.=20 PBS is partially funded by our tax dollars. Moyers has an agenda just = like any=20 political lobbyist. They wear different hats, but their message is = always the=20 same  
" trust me".
Perhaps it is  good for the American = people to=20 return to the skepticism and distrust of politicians that dominated the = nation=20 at the time of its birth. Can anyone tell the difference between the = Republicans=20 and the Democrats in todays politics ? 
In Washington, the game is based on the = premise=20 that it is not nearly as important to win.. as it is.. to make sure the = other=20 guy loses. Go figure  
 
Richard
 

 

------=_NextPart_001_0020_01C50A0D.5E920E50-- ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01C50A0D.5E8F0110 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <001e01c50a3f$a921cff0$0100007f xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01C50A0D.5E8F0110-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 3 14:33:01 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j13MWYrB023379; Thu, 3 Feb 2005 14:32:34 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j13MWT5v023341; Thu, 3 Feb 2005 14:32:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 14:32:29 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050203172640.02ae5630 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2005 17:32:11 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: There is No Tomorrow, by Bill Moyers In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050203162025.02ae5630 pop.mindspring.com> References: <64CB3F0E.27564A17.0242793D aol.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050203162025.02ae5630 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_10364625==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: <2dv1P.A.osF.8ZqACB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57499 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_10364625==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I wrote: >And the Americans did nothing to disestablish Buddhism. Wrong word. I meant "discourage." It was never established as a state religion. Anyway, as Erik says this is severely off-topic. Also, it should be noted that some of my comments were not to be taken seriously, such as my reference to Rudolf the Red Nosed Reindeer. A man from Mars might be forgiven for thinking that cultural icon is somehow tied in with religion, but we all know it isn't. Right? - Jed --=====================_10364625==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" I wrote:

And the Americans did nothing to disestablish Buddhism.

Wrong word. I meant "discourage." It was never established as a state religion.

Anyway, as Erik says this is severely off-topic.

Also, it should be noted that some of my comments were not to be taken seriously, such as my reference to Rudolf the Red Nosed Reindeer. A man from Mars might be forgiven for thinking that cultural icon is somehow tied in with religion, but we all know it isn't. Right?

- Jed
 --=====================_10364625==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 3 14:35:00 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j13MYlrB024287; Thu, 3 Feb 2005 14:34:48 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j13MYi8k024258; Thu, 3 Feb 2005 14:34:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 14:34:44 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: "Vortex" Subject: RE: There is No Tomorrow, by Bill Moyers Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 17:35:05 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <200502031504.AA722142082 mail1.myexcel.com> Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57500 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Now now boys, let's not come to blows, before we examine some experimental evidence. I direct your attention to the story of Easter Island. Those enormous stone heads were sort of representative of a whole style of thinking... K. http://www.primitivism.com/easter-island.htm The Lessons of Easter Island Clive Ponting Easter Island is one of the most remote, inhabited places on earth. Only some 150 square miles in area, it lies in the Pacific Ocean, 2,000 miles off the west coast of South America and 1,250 miles from the nearest inhabitable land of Pitcairn Island. At its peak the population was only about 7,000. Yet, despite its superficial insignificance, the history of Easter Island is a grim warning to the world. The Dutch Admiral Roggeveen, onboard the Arena, was the first European to visit the island on Easter Sunday 1722. He found a society in a primitive state with about 3,000 people living in squalid reed huts or caves, engaged in almost perpetual warfare and resorting to cannibalism in a desperate attempt to supplement the meagre food supplies available on the island. During the next European visit in 1770 the Spanish nominally annexed the island but it was so remote, underpopulated and lacking in resources that no formal colonial occupation ever took place. There were a few more brief visits in the late eighteenth century, including one by Captain Cook in 1774. An American ship stayed long enough to carry off twenty-two inhabitants to work as slaves killing seals on Masafuera Island off the Chilean coast. The population continued to decline and conditions on the island worsened: in 1877 the Peruvians removed and enslaved all but 110 old people and children. Eventually the island was taken over by Chile and turned into a giant ranch for 40,000 sheep run by a British company, with the few remaining inhabitants confined to one small village. What amazed and intrigued the first European visitors was the evidence, amongst all the squalor and barbarism, of a once flourishing and advanced society. Scattered across the island were over 600 massive stone statues, on average over twenty feet high. When anthropologists began to consider the history and culture of Easter Island early in the twentieth century they agreed on one thing. The primitive people living in such poverty-stricken and backward conditions when the Europeans first visited the island could not have been responsible for such a socially advanced and technologically complex task as carving, transporting anderecting the statues. Easter Island therefore became a 'mystery'and a wide variety of theories were advanced to explain its history. Some of the more fantastic ideas involved visits by spacemen or lost civilizations on continents that had sunk into the Pacific leaving Easter Island as a remnant. The Norwegian archaeologist Thor Heyerdahl, in his popular book Aku-Aku written in the 1950S, emphasizes the strange aspectsof the island and the mysteries that lay hidden in its history. He argued that the island was first settled from South America and that from there the people inherited a tradition of monumental sculpture and stonework (similar to the great Inca achievements). To account for the decline he introduced the idea that at a late stage other settlers arrived from the west and began a series of wars between the so-called 'long-ears' and the 'short-ears' that destroyed the complex society on the island. While this theory is less extravagant than some of the others that have been put forward it has never been generally accepted by other archaeologists. The history of Easter Island is not one of lost civilisations and esoteric knowledge. Rather it is a striking example of the dependence of human societies on their environment and of the consequences of irreversibly damaging that environment. It is the story of a people who, starting from an extremely limited resource base, constructed one of the most advanced societies in the world for the technology they had available. However, the demands placed on the environment of the island by this development were immense. When it could no longer withstand the pressure, the society that had been painfully built up over the previous thousand years fell with it. The colonisation of Easter Island belongs to the last phase in the long-drawn-out movement of human settlement across the globe. The first people arrived sometime in the fifth century at a period when the Roman empire was collapsing in western Europe, China was still in chaos following the fall of the Han empire two hundred years earlier, India saw the end of the short-lived Gupta empire and the great city of Teotihuacan dominated most of Mesoamerica. They were Polynesians and part of a great process of exploration and settlement across the vast expanse of the Pacific Ocean. The original Polynesians came from south-east Asia and they reached the islands of Tonga and Samoa about 1000 BC. From there they moved further east to the Marquesas Islands about 300 AD and then in two directions, south-east to Easter Island and north to Hawaii in the fifth century. The last phases of the movement were to the Society Islands about 6oo and from there to New Zealand about 800. When this settlement was complete, the Polynesians were the most widely spread people on earth encompassing a huge triangle from Hawaii in the north to New Zealand in the south-west and Easter Island in the south-east--an area twice the size of the present continental United States. Their long voyages were made in double canoes, joined together by a broad central platform to transport and shelter people, plants, animals and food. These were deliberate colonization missions and they represented considerable feats of navigation and seamanship since the prevailing currents and winds in the Pacific are against west to east travel. When the first people found Easter Island, they discovered a world with few resources. The island was volcanic in origin, but its three volcanoes had been extinct for at least 400 years before the Polynesian settlers arrived. Both temperatures and humidity were high and, although the soil was adequate, drainage was very bad and there were no permanent streams on the island; the only fresh water available was from lakes inside the extinct volcanoes. Because of its remoteness the island had only a few species of plants and animals. There were thirty indigenous species of flora, no mammals, a few insects and two types of small lizard. The waters around the island contained very few fish. The arrival of the first humans did little to improve the situation. The Polynesians in their home islands depended on a very limited range of plants and animals for subsistence: their only domesticated animals were chickens, pigs, dogs and the Polynesian rat and the main crops were yam, taro, breadfruit, banana, coconut and sweet potato. The settlers on Easter Island brought only chickens and rats with them and they soon found that the climate was too severe for semi-tropical plants such as breadfruit and coconut and extremely marginal for the usual mainstays of their diet, taro and yam. The inhabitants were, therefore, restricted to a diet based mainly on sweet potatoes and chickens. The only advantage of this monotonous, though nutritionally adequate, diet was that cultivation of the sweet potato was not very demanding and left plenty of time for other activities. It is not known how many settlers arrived in the fifth century but they probably numbered no more than twenty or thirty at most. As the population slowly increased the forms of social organisation familiar in the rest of Polynesia were adopted. The basic social unit was the extended family, which jointly owned and cultivated the land. Closely related households formed lineages and clans, each of which had its own centre for religious and ceremonial activity. Each clan was headed by a chief who was able to organise and direct activities and act as a focal point for the redistribution of food and other essentials within the clan. It was this form of organisation and the competition (and probably conflict) between the clans that produced both the major achievements of Easter Island society and ultimately its collapse. Settlements were scattered across the island in small clusters of peasant huts with crops grown in open fields. Social activities were centred around separate ceremonial centres, which were occupied for part of the year. The chief monuments were large stone platforms, similar to those found in other parts of Polynesia and known as ahu, which were used for burials, ancestor worship and to commemorate past clan chiefs. What made Easter Island different was that crop production took very little effort and therefore there was plenty of free time which the clan chiefs were able to direct into ceremonial activities. The result was the creation of the most advanced of all the Polynesian societies and one of the most complex in the world for its limited resource base. The Easter Islanders engaged in elaborate rituals and monument construction. Some of the ceremonies involved recitation from the only known Polynesian form of writing called rongorongo, which was probably less a true script and more a series of mnemonic devices. One set of elaborate rituals was based on the bird cult at Orongo, where there are the remains of forty-seven special houses together with numerous platforms and a series of high-relief rock carvings. The crucial centres of ceremonial activity were the ahu. Over 300 of these platforms were constructed on the island, mainly near the coast. The level of intellectual achievement of at least some parts of Easter Island society can be judged by the fact that a number of these ahu have sophisticated astronomical alignments, usually towards one of the solstices or the equinox. At each site they erected between one and fifteen of the huge stone statues that survive today as a unique memorial to the vanished Easter Island society. It is these statues which took up immense amounts of peasant labour. The statues were carved, using only obsidian stone tools, at the quarry at Rano Raraku. They were fashioned to represent in a highly stylised form a male head and torso. On top of the head was placed a 'topknot' of red stone weighing about ten tons from another quarry. The carving was a time-consuming rather than a complex task. The most challenging problem was to transport the statues, each some twenty feet in length and weighing several tens of tons, across the island and the then erect them on top of the ahu. The Easter Islanders' solution to the problem of transport provides the key to the subsequent fate of their whole society. Lacking any draught animals they had to rely on human power to drag the statues across the island using tree trunks as rollers. The population of the island grew steadily from the original small group in the fifth century to about 7,000 at its peak in 1550. Over time the number of clan groups would have increased and also the competition between them. By the sixteenth century hundreds of ahu had been constructed and with them over 600 of the huge stone statues. Then, when the society was at its peak, it suddenly collapsed leaving over half the statues only partially completed around Rano Raraku quarry. The cause of the collapse and the key to understanding the 'mysteries' of Easter Island was massive environmental degradation brought on by deforestation of the whole island. When the first Europeans visited the island in the eighteenth century it was completely treeless apart from a handful of isolated specimens at the bottom of the deepest extinct volcano crater of Rano Kao. However, recent scientific work, involving the analysis of pollen types, has shown that at the time of the initial settlement Easter Island had a dense vegetation cover including extensive woods. As the population slowly increased, trees would have been cut down to provide clearings for agriculture, fuel for heating and cooking, construction material for household goods, pole and thatch houses and canoes for fishing. The most demanding requirement of all was the need to move the large number of enormously heavy statues to ceremonial sites around the island. The only way this could have been done was by large numbers of people guiding and sliding them along a form of flexible tracking made up of tree trunks spread on the ground between the quarry and the aha. Prodigious quantities of timber would have been required and in increasing amounts as the competition between the clans to erect statues grew. As a result by1600 the island was almost completely deforested and statue erection was brought to a halt leaving many stranded at the quarry. The deforestation of the island was not only the death knell for the elaborate social and ceremonial life, it also had other drastic effects on every day life for the population generally. >From 1500 the shortage of trees was forcing many people to abandon building houses from timber and live in caves, and when the wood eventually ran out altogether about a century later everyone had to use the only materials left. They resorted to stone shelters dug into the hillsides or flimsy reed huts cut from the vegetation that grew round the edges of the crater lakes. Canoes could no longer be built and only reed boats incapable of long voyages could be made. Fishing was also more difficult because nets had previously been made from the paper mulberry tree (which could also be made into cloth) and that was no longer available. Removal of the tree cover also badly affected the soil of the island, which would have already suffered from a lack of suitable animal manure to replace nutrients taken up by the crops. Increased exposure caused soil erosion and the leaching out of essential nutrients. As a result crop yields declined. The only source of food on the island unaffected by these problems was the chickens. As they became ever more important, they had to be protected from theft and the introduction of stone-built defensive chicken houses can be dated to this phase of the island's history. It became impossible to support 7,000 people on this diminishing resource base and numbers fell rapidly. After 1600 Easter Island society went into decline and regressed to ever more primitive conditions. Without trees, and so without canoes, the islanders were trapped in their remote home, unable to escape the consequences of their self-inflicted, environmental collapse. The social and cultural impact of deforestation was equally important. The inability to erect any more statues must have had a devastating effect on the belief systems and social organisation and called into question the foundations on which that complex society had been built. There were increasing conflicts over diminishing resources resulting in a state of almost permanent warfare. Slavery became common and as the amount of protein available fell the population turned to cannibalism. One of the main aims of warfare was to destroy the ahu of opposing clans. A few survived as burial places but most were abandoned. The magnificent stone statues, too massive to destroy, were pulled down. The first Europeans found only a few still standing when they arrived in the eighteenth century and all had been toppled by the 1830s. When they were asked by the visitors how the statues had been moved from the quarry, the primitive islanders could no longer remember what their ancestors had achieved and could only say that the huge figures had 'walked' across the island. The Europeans, seeing a treeless landscape, could think of no logical explanation either and were equally mystified. Against great odds the islanders painstakingly constructed, over many centuries, one of the most advanced societies of its type in the world. For a thousand years they sustained a way of life in accordance with an elaborate set of social and religious customs that enabled them not only to survive but to flourish. It was in many ways a triumph of human ingenuity and an apparent victory over a difficult environment. But in the end the increasing numbers and cultural ambitions of the islanders proved too great for the limited resources available to them. When the environment was ruined by the pressure, the society very quickly collapsed with it leading to a state of near barbarism. The Easter Islanders, aware that they were almost completely isolated from the rest of the world, must surely have realised that their very existence depended on the limited resources of a small island. After all it was small enough for them to walk round the entire island in a day or so and see for themselves what was happening to the forests. Yet they were unable to devise a system that allowed them to find the right balance with their environment. Instead vital resources were steadily consumed until finally none were left. Indeed, at the very time when the limitations of the island must have become starkly apparent the competition between the clans for the available timber seems to have intensified as more and more statues were carved and moved across the island in an attempt to secure prestige and status. The fact that so many were left unfinished or stranded near the quarry suggests that no account was taken of how few trees were left on the island. The fate of Easter Island has wider implications too. Like Easter Island the earth has only limited resources to support human society and all its demands. Like the islanders, the human population of the earth has no practical means of escape. How has the environment of the world shaped human history and how have people shaped and altered the world in which they live? Have other societies fallen into the same trap as the islanders? For the last two million years humans have succeeded in obtaining more food and extracting more resources on which to sustain increasing numbers of people and increasingly complex and technologically advanced societies. But have they been any more successful than the islanders in finding a way of life that does not fatally deplete the resources that are available to them and irreversibly damage their life support system? -----Original Message----- From: Jeff and Dorothy Kooistra [mailto:dskjdk myexcel.com] Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 5:04 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: There is No Tomorrow, by Bill Moyers Now Mr. Orionworks, You are certainly old and experienced enough in real life by this time to have noticed that Bill Moyers is an idiot. He is not an excellent journalist but a propagandist, and never one to let the truth get in the way of his axe grinding. He is an ordained Southern Baptist minister the same way some pedophiles are ordained priests. Before the end of his first sentence he has already, as usual, made it clear that he thinks everyone who disagrees with him is likely delusional. Why read this crap? Why post it here? Here is our excellent "journalist" at work; here is our ordained Southen Baptist minister showing his deep learning: "the book of Revelations" It's R-E-V-E-L-A-T-I-O-N Geez! Kooistra From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 3 15:25:51 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j13NPXrB014818; Thu, 3 Feb 2005 15:25:38 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j13NPUQC014786; Thu, 3 Feb 2005 15:25:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 15:25:30 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4202B373.7000307 bigfoot.com> Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2005 18:27:47 -0500 From: joe thumber User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.5) Gecko/20050105 Debian/1.7.5-1 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: There is No Tomorrow, by Bill Moyers References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57501 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Keith Nagel quoted: > It became >impossible to support 7,000 people on this diminishing resource >base and numbers fell rapidly. > >After 1600 Easter Island society went into decline and regressed >to ever more primitive conditions. Without trees, > With fewer people, and no more statue-hauling, why didn't the trees grow back? They grow like weeds around here. >and so without >canoes, the islanders were trapped in their remote home, unable >to escape the consequences of their self-inflicted, >environmental collapse. > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 3 15:35:36 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j13NZBrB019698; Thu, 3 Feb 2005 15:35:12 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j13NZ6tp019643; Thu, 3 Feb 2005 15:35:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 15:35:06 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: There is No Tomorrow, by Bill Moyers Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 18:35:42 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <4202B373.7000307 bigfoot.com> Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57502 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I don't know, but presumably soil erosion, without the trees to bind the soil it would wash right off the island. They grow like weeds wherever you are because of what's already there. K. -----Original Message----- From: joe thumber [mailto:thumber bigfoot.com] Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 6:28 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: There is No Tomorrow, by Bill Moyers Keith Nagel quoted: > It became >impossible to support 7,000 people on this diminishing resource >base and numbers fell rapidly. > >After 1600 Easter Island society went into decline and regressed >to ever more primitive conditions. Without trees, > With fewer people, and no more statue-hauling, why didn't the trees grow back? They grow like weeds around here. >and so without >canoes, the islanders were trapped in their remote home, unable >to escape the consequences of their self-inflicted, >environmental collapse. > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 4 00:17:20 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j148GrjA012620; Fri, 4 Feb 2005 00:16:54 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j148GiLY012544; Fri, 4 Feb 2005 00:16:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 00:16:44 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3k7897$mr36la mxip12a.cluster1.charter.net> References: <3k7897$mr36la mxip12a.cluster1.charter.net> Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 02:17:21 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: There is No Tomorrow, by Bill Moyers Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j148GYjA012436 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57503 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Steven Vincent Johnson posted; >Vorts, > >An article recently published in the Minneapolis Star Tribune >written by Bill Moyers was brought to my attention. While not >completely on topic, it is not exactly off topic I really appreciate your bringing this to my attention. First of all, it's the Minneapolis Red Star and Communist Tribune, which as Dennis Prager http://www.dennisprager.com , says "is truly one of the worst newspapers in America." I was so infuriated with what Moyers has to say that I wrote the following response. Something else to consider: While Bill Moyers is not only an excellent journalist who has produced wonderful PBS programs like "Joseph Campbell and Power of Myth" (J. Campbell: 1904 - 1987, available at amazon.com), he is also an ordained Southern Baptist minister. Please keep this in mind when reading Mr. Moyers' essay: For references check out: >http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=41&ItemID=7158 Our local PBS station plays Power of Myth on a regular basis, it is apparently a big favorite with the liberals. Consequently I've watched a few minutes of it, I regard it as piece of New Age garbage. It figures that Moyers has a liberal Christian education. As Dennis Prager says, "some ideas are so stupid that only someone with an advanced degree could believe them." > >One of the biggest changes in politics in my lifetime is that the >delusional is no longer marginal. It's Liberals who are delusional, see http://www.satinover.com , look around the good doctor's website and you will see a link to an article whose title is, Is Liberalism a Brain Disease? >It has come in from the fringe, to sit in the seat of power in the >Oval Office and in Congress. For the first time in our history, >ideology and theology hold a monopoly of power in Washington. Absolute power? what nonsense! First of all W is a liberal, who doesn't believe that Yeshua (Jesus) is the only path to salvation. We haven't even begun to reverse the deleterious consequences of liberalism, and already they are squacking. I'm proud to say that I don't believe in separation of church and state. It is a legal fiction created out of whole cloth by an activist Supreme Court. America was a Christian Nation from it's founding until the liberals got control of the educational system. As Moyers notes, we are still minority to be reckoned with, but then we are on G-d's side. > >Theology asserts propositions that cannot be proven true; ideologues >hold stoutly to a worldview despite being contradicted by what is >generally accepted as reality. Even given the depth of the Liberal brainwashing which the rest of this article makes obvious, I find Moyer's reference to reality rather disingenuous. The Bible Code is proof of The Book's divine origin, Then there is the matter of eschatology, 75% of the verses which were prophetic at their writing came true, on time. The fulfillment of the remaining 25% won't convince a fool like Moyers either. >When ideology and theology couple, their offspring are not always >bad but they are always blind. And there is the danger: voters and >politicians alike, oblivious to the facts. Hum, Moyer's pet brain disease, is an ideology which the deluded follow too, oblivious to the facts. > >Remember James Watt, President Ronald Reagan's first secretary of >the interior? My favorite online environmental journal, the >ever-engaging Grist, reminded us recently of how James Watt told the >U.S. Congress that protecting natural resources was unimportant in >light of the imminent return of Jesus Christ. In public testimony he >said, "after the last tree is felled, Christ will come back." Actually the trees will be burnt up during the Tribulation. While I regard protection of the environment as irrelevant, I am quick to point out that there are more trees now than ever before. If you truly desire that land should be preserved it should be in private hands, of course any kind of private ownership flies in the face of the liberal's ideology. The problem is the size of the human population. The more extreme followers of Moyer's ideology believe that the answer is reducing the population by 95%, which is no problem if you are among the surviving 5%. > >Beltway elites snickered. The press corps didn't know what he was >talking about. But James Watt was serious. So were his compatriots >out across the country. They are the people who believe the Bible is >literally true -- one-third of the American electorate, if a recent >Gallup poll is accurate. They're still snickering at us, their brain disease is truly all pervasive. > > >That's right -- the rapture index. Google it and you will find that >the best-selling books in America today are the 12 volumes of the >"Left Behind" series written by the Christian fundamentalist and >religious-right warrior Timothy LaHaye. These true believers >subscribe to a fantastical theology concocted in the 19th century by >a couple of immigrant preachers who took disparate passages from the >Bible and wove them into a narrative that has captivated the >imagination of millions of Americans. In case you haven't noticed, the world's condition continues to deteriorate. While we may come up with technological fixes, there is a group of people who believe that the World's condition would be made much better by reducing the population by 95% and setting themselves up as the dictators. They have the nucleus of this one world government ensconced in New York, complete with a Temple where all faiths are welcome, with one exception, those misguided individuals who worship Yahweh and believe in the inerrorancy of his Book. In my humble opinion, this nascent G-dless dictatorship, which would plant it's iron boot squarely on the neck of humanity it the greatest threat that we face. > >Its outline is rather simple, if bizarre (the British writer George >Monbiot recently did a brilliant dissection of it and I am indebted >to him for adding to my own understanding): Once Israel has occupied >the rest of its "biblical lands," legions of the antichrist will >attack it, triggering a final showdown in the valley of Armageddon. A gross over simplification, actually it's Gog of Magog who brings that army against Israel in that battle, but it's not bad for one sentence. >As the Jews who have not been converted are burned, the messiah will >return for the rapture. Not accurate. The surviving Jews, one out of three, will accept Yeshua as the Moshiach, (Messiah). We hope that the rapture will occur at the beginning, or the middle of the Tribulation. This is a period of seven 360 day years, which begins with a peace treaty guaranteeing peace, and the safety of Israel. > True believers will be lifted out of their clothes and transported >to Heaven, where, seated next to the right hand of God, they will >watch their political and religious opponents suffer plagues of >boils, sores, locusts and frogs during the several years of >tribulation that follow. The proper term is transfigured. As for watching, I'm doing that now, after the transfiguration, I'm going to do my best to forget about this place. > >I'm not making this up. Like Monbiot, I've read the literature. I've >reported on these people, following some of them from Texas to the >West Bank. They are sincere, serious and polite as they tell you >they feel called to help bring the rapture on as fulfillment of >biblical prophecy. While I would love to push the button and bring about the Tribulation, it will happen in G-d's own good time. >That's why they have declared solidarity with Israel and the Jewish >settlements and backed up their support with money and volunteers. Even a stopped clock is right twice a day, I'm proud to be studying with a Rabbi who is on the board of the Temple Institute. A believer in Louisiana sent a herd of red cows to Israel, see sacrifice of the Red Heifer. We were also helpful in acquiring the 57 kilograms of gold required to fabricate the minorah for the Temple. >It's why the invasion of Iraq for them was a warm-up act, predicted >in the Book of Revelations where four angels "which are bound in the >great river Euphrates will be released to slay the third part of >man." Wrong, the release of those creatures will happen during the Tribulation. As for the war between Christian civilization and Islam, I believe that it is foretold in Ezekiel 35 and Obahiah, which is first mentioned in Genesis 25. >A war with Islam in the Middle East is not something to be feared >but welcomed -- If El Quida were to ask me about the wisdom of attacking us with atomics, I would advise against it. Their god has promised them victory however, and they are true believers too. >an essential conflagration on the road to redemption. The last time >I Googled it, the rapture index stood at 144 -- just one point below >the critical threshold when the whole thing will blow, the son of >God will return, the righteous will enter Heaven and sinners will be >condemned to eternal hellfire. Actually that is the beginning of the Tribulation. > >So what does this mean for public policy and the environment? Go to >Grist to read a remarkable work of reporting by the journalist Glenn >Scherer -- "The Road to Environmental Apocalypse." Read it and you >will see how millions of Christian fundamentalists may believe that >environmental destruction is not only to be disregarded but actually >welcomed -- even hastened -- as a sign of the coming apocalypse. As the author mentions below, we believe that the ecosystem is divinely ordered and will continue to function as long as we are here. > >As Grist makes clear, we're not talking about a handful of fringe >lawmakers who hold or are beholden to these beliefs. Nearly half the >U.S. Congress before the recent election -- 231 legislators in total >and more since the election -- are backed by the religious right. How sweet it is! > >Forty-five senators and 186 members of the 108th Congress earned 80 >to 100 percent approval ratings from the three most influential >Christian right advocacy groups. They include Senate Majority Leader >Bill Frist, Assistant Majority Leader Mitch McConnell, Conference >Chair Rick Santorum of Pennsylvania, Policy Chair Jon Kyl of >Arizona, House Speaker Dennis Hastert and Majority Whip Roy Blunt. >The only Democrat to score 100 percent with the Christian coalition >was Sen. Zell Miller of Georgia, who recently quoted from the >biblical book of Amos on the Senate floor: "The days will come, >sayeth the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land." He >seemed to be relishing the thought. I think that what Moyers says in the above paragraph is marvelous. I would have quoted from Hosea and Zechriah, too, but half a loaf is better than none. > >And why not? There's a constituency for it. A 2002 Time-CNN poll >found that 59 percent of Americans believe that the prophecies found >in the book of Revelations are going to come true. You can tell when the author is Biblically ignorant because they refer to The Revelation to St. John the Divine as Revelations. >Nearly one-quarter think the Bible predicted the 9/11 attacks. It's in the Bible Code. Ditto for the Atomic Catastrophe in 5766. >Drive across the country with your radio tuned to the more than >1,600 Christian radio stations, I'm a regular listener to three of them. >or in the motel turn on some of the 250 Christian TV stations, 250, I only get four, that's the best reason I've heard to get a satellite system. >and you can hear some of this end-time gospel. And you will come to >understand why people under the spell of such potent prophecies >cannot be expected, While teachers are good, if you really want to understand prophecy, read The Book. >as Grist puts it, "to worry about the environment. Why care about >the earth, when the droughts, floods, famine and pestilence brought >by ecological collapse are signs of the apocalypse foretold in the >Bible? The proper name for it is The Birth Pains of the Messiah. > Why care about global climate change when you and yours will be >rescued in the rapture? Maybe we should build a giant refrigeration system and refreeze the arctic. We can build orbiting power stations and beam the energy down in the form of microwaves, perhaps the beams of microwave energy can be used to stere hurricanes away from populated areas too. > >Because these people believe that until Christ does return, the Lord >will provide. exactly >One of their texts is a high school history book, "America's >Providential History." You'll find there these words: "The secular >or socialist has a limited-resource mentality and views the world as >a pie ... that needs to be cut up so everyone can get a piece." In spite of their doomsday predictions, there are more people now, and we are living better than ever before. This is a classic example of, what Dennis Prager says, "being liberal means never having to say you're sorry, or admit that you're wrong." America's history is filled with providential happenings, admitting that conflicts with the liberal ideology of course. >However, "[t]he Christian knows that the potential in God is >unlimited and that there is no shortage of resources in God's earth >... while many secularists view the world as overpopulated, >Christians know that God has made the earth sufficiently large with >plenty of resources to accommodate all of the people." Humans have no right to question G-d's plan. This is especially true of humans who have a brain disease! > >No wonder Karl Rove goes around the White House whistling that >militant hymn, "Onward Christian Soldiers." The hymn's title is Battle Hymn of the Republic, doorknob! > He turned out millions of the foot soldiers on Nov. 2, including >many who have made the apocalypse a powerful driving force in modern >American politics. So what? the opposing side did the same thing. They were as thick as fleas on a dog here in the ghetto, where there are lots of stupid people who don't know any better than to vote democrat. They succeeded in keeping Minnesota in the Blue column. It's a tribute to our liberal higher education system, which has produced generations of deluded fools. Part of the liberal mythos is that the Republican Party is the party of the rich. This is more delusional thinking, the rich are far more likely to support the democrats. George, the currency trader from hell, Sorros is a prime example of this. He would sooner see me starve in the street than give me a job, there is no finer example of an autocratic heathen bastard than George. > >It is hard for the journalist to report a story like this with any >credibility. So let me put it on a personal level. I myself don't >know how to be in this world without expecting a confident future >and getting up every morning to do what I can to bring it about. So >I have always been an optimist. Now, however, I think of my friend >on Wall Street whom I once asked: "What do you think of the >market?"I'm optimistic," he answered. "Then why do you look so >worried?" And he answered: "Because I am not sure my optimism is >justified." That's what faith in a higher power if for stupid! > >I'm not, either. Once upon a time I agreed with Eric Chivian and the >Center for Health and the Global Environment that people will >protect the natural environment when they realize its importance to >their health and to the health and lives of their children. Now I am >not so sure. It's not that I don't want to believe that -- it's just >that I read the news and connect the dots. > >I read that the administrator of the U.S. Environmental Protection >Agency has declared the election a mandate for President Bush on the >environment. This for an administration: > >* That wants to rewrite the Clean Air Act, the Clean Water Act and >the Endangered Species Act protecting rare plant and animal species >and their habitats, as well as the National Environmental Policy >Act, which requires the government to judge beforehand whether >actions might damage natural resources. > >* That wants to relax pollution limits for ozone; eliminate vehicle >tailpipe inspections, and ease pollution standards for cars, >sport-utility vehicles and diesel-powered big trucks and heavy >equipment. > >* That wants a new international audit law to allow corporations to >keep certain information about environmental problems secret from >the public. > >* That wants to drop all its new-source review suits against >polluting, coal-fired power plants and weaken consent decrees >reached earlier with coal companies. The above is politics. I don't like it, but having done my best to find an alternative source of energy, and watched numerous other researchers do the same, I've concluded that there is nothing I can do about it. > >* That wants to open the Arctic [National] Wildlife Refuge to >drilling and increase drilling in Padre Island National Seashore, >the longest stretch of undeveloped barrier island in the world and >the last great coastal wild land in America. Better we should get the oil from our Arab cousins. > >I read the news just this week and learned how the Environmental >Protection Agency had planned to spend $9 million -- $2 million of >it from the administration's friends at the American Chemistry >Council -- to pay poor families to continue to use pesticides in >their homes. These pesticides have been linked to neurological >damage in children, but instead of ordering an end to their use, the >government and the industry were going to offer the families $970 >each, as well as a camcorder and children's clothing, to serve as >guinea pigs for the study. Better they should live with bugs. While I'm no fan of the Chemical Industry, am I going to give up my rat poison or polymers, or gasoline so that I can go to work?, not a chance. > >I read all this in the news. > >I read the news just last night and learned that the >administration's friends at the International Policy Network, which >is supported by Exxon Mobil and others of like mind, have issued a >new report that climate change is "a myth, sea levels are not >rising" [and] scientists who believe catastrophe is possible are "an >embarrassment." Ever heard about the undersea volcanos? Maybe we should get a boatload big rubber stoppers and stick them in the vents. Then there is the matter of the Sun. James McCanney www.jmcanneysicience.com , says that the Sun is being hit by rocks coming in at an angle orthogonal to the ecliptic. Coincident with the impacts are Sunspots and an increase in solar energy. You know what you can do about that if you don't like it, don't you? Not a damn thing! > >I not only read the news but the fine print of the recent >appropriations bill passed by Congress, with the obscure (and >obscene) riders attached to it: a clause removing all endangered >species protections from pesticides; language prohibiting judicial >review for a forest in Oregon; a waiver of environmental review for >grazing permits on public lands; a rider pressed by developers to >weaken protection for crucial habitats in California. People like Moyers worship the created rather than the creator. It is true that the politicians do all sorts of special deals for their supporters, it's called politics. Meanwhile the World's condition continues to deteriorate. > >I read all this and look up at the pictures on my desk, next to the >computer -- pictures of my grandchildren. I see the future looking >back at me from those photographs and I say, "Father, forgive us, >for we know not what we do." And then I am stopped short by the >thought: "That's not right. We do know what we are doing. We are >stealing their future. Betraying their trust. Despoiling their >world." Spoken like a true materialist with no real faith. People like Moyers are the reason that we Evangelicals left the main line protestant churches. Their churches are big and largely empty, most of the people have gray hair. Ours are small and crowded and filled with children. > >And I ask myself: Why? Is it because we don't care? Because we are >greedy? Because we have lost our capacity for outrage, our ability >to sustain indignation at injustice? Did you ever take microbiology? the bugs (microbes) overgrow the petri plate and poison themselves. Well the Earth is the petri plate, and we're the bugs. > >What has happened to our moral imagination? > >On the heath Lear asks Gloucester: "How do you see the world?" And >Gloucester, who is blind, answers: "I see it feelingly.'" > >I see it feelingly. > >The news is not good these days. I can tell you, though, that as a >journalist I know the news is never the end of the story. The news >can be the truth that sets us free -- not only to feel but to fight >for the future we want. And the will to fight is the antidote to >despair, the cure for cynicism, and the answer to those faces >looking back at me from those photographs on my desk. What we need >is what the ancient Israelites called hochma -- the science of the >heart ... the capacity to see, to feel and then to act as if the >future depended on you. > >Believe me, it does. > >========== > >Bill Moyers was host until recently of the weekly public affairs >series "NOW with Bill Moyers" on PBS. This article is adapted from >AlterNet, where it first appeared. The text is taken from Moyers' >remarks upon receiving the Global Environmental Citizen Award from >the Center for Health and the Global Environment at Harvard Medical >School. >© Copyright 2005 Star Tribune. All rights reserved. >``````````````` From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 4 00:23:17 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j148N7jA015154; Fri, 4 Feb 2005 00:23:08 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j148N5wc015134; Fri, 4 Feb 2005 00:23:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 00:23:05 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 23:32:13 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: understanding Laser Propulsion Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57504 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:08 AM 2/2/5, Merlyn wrote: >I think the discussion between Horace and I on the mechanics behind >magnetism has an application here. As Horace pointed out to me, Jefimenko >has shown how the magnetic field of a moving charge is due to the >retardation of the electric field do to signal speed (electrical >dopplering). Magnetism is not really due to dopplering, which is a frequency shift. Retardation and doppler shift are two different things, though both are related to velocity. Doppler shift can only affect frequency, which in the case of photons does indeed affect the momentum transfer itself. However, retardation also affects the *direction* of the applied force. >This would imply that there is no way to manifest a magnetic monopole >because a stationary magnetic field does not exist. This does not necessarily follow. Jefimenko demonstrates that, applying relativity, the electric field can be derived from a magnetic field. He feels therefore, when examined from the perspective of relativity, they are co-fields. If monopoles exist, then they can generate "apparent" electric fields just like charged particles can generate "apparent" magnetic fields. Symmetry, if it actually means anything in this case, indicates monopoles should or at least might actually exist. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 4 06:54:20 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j14ErXjA003003; Fri, 4 Feb 2005 06:53:43 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j14ErNS4002872; Fri, 4 Feb 2005 06:53:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 06:53:23 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050204095107.02a4c630 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2005 09:53:03 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Uploaded Kim's analysis of the 1934 Dee experiment Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57505 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Here is a paper I have been wanting to upload for a long time: Kim, Y.E. Possible Evidence of Cold D(D,p)T Fusion from Dee's 1934 Experiment. in Fourth International Conference on Cold Fusion. 1994. Lahaina, Maui: Electric Power Research Institute 3412 Hillview Ave., Palo Alto, CA 94304. http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/KimYEpossibleeva.pdf I have had some trouble with LENR-CANR since yesterday afternoon. I think it is fixed. Please let me know if if files are missing or corrupted. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 4 07:42:51 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j14FgTjA028265; Fri, 4 Feb 2005 07:42:34 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j14FgQvV028222; Fri, 4 Feb 2005 07:42:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 07:42:26 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20050204154207.67120.qmail web54510.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 07:42:07 -0800 (PST) From: Merlyn Subject: Re: understanding Laser Propulsion To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-2028301064-1107531727=:66976" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57506 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-2028301064-1107531727=:66976 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii True, the traditional doppler shift is a change in frequency, brought about by the retardation of the signal due to travel time. Thus I apply the same basic terminology to the change in field gradient caused by the retardation of the signal due to travel time. I have never been able to agree with relativity, there is no physical mechanism which would cause the speed of light to be constant in all directions in all inertial reference frames. Of course, I don't believe in photons either. I think the quantization of light is more an artifact of the measuring system than an actual quality of light. Horace Heffner wrote: At 10:08 AM 2/2/5, Merlyn wrote: >I think the discussion between Horace and I on the mechanics behind >magnetism has an application here. As Horace pointed out to me, Jefimenko >has shown how the magnetic field of a moving charge is due to the >retardation of the electric field do to signal speed (electrical >dopplering). Magnetism is not really due to dopplering, which is a frequency shift. Retardation and doppler shift are two different things, though both are related to velocity. Doppler shift can only affect frequency, which in the case of photons does indeed affect the momentum transfer itself. However, retardation also affects the *direction* of the applied force. >This would imply that there is no way to manifest a magnetic monopole >because a stationary magnetic field does not exist. This does not necessarily follow. Jefimenko demonstrates that, applying relativity, the electric field can be derived from a magnetic field. He feels therefore, when examined from the perspective of relativity, they are co-fields. If monopoles exist, then they can generate "apparent" electric fields just like charged particles can generate "apparent" magnetic fields. Symmetry, if it actually means anything in this case, indicates monopoles should or at least might actually exist. Regards, Horace Heffner Merlyn Magickal Engineer and Technical Metaphysicist --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' --0-2028301064-1107531727=:66976 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
True, the traditional doppler shift is a change in frequency, brought about by the retardation of the signal due to travel time.  Thus I apply the same basic terminology to the change in field gradient caused by the retardation of the signal due to travel time.
 
I have never been able to agree with relativity, there is no physical mechanism which would cause the speed of light to be constant in all directions in all inertial reference frames.
Of course, I don't believe in photons either.  I think the quantization of light is more an artifact of the measuring system than an actual quality of light.

Horace Heffner <hheffner mtaonline.net> wrote:
At 10:08 AM 2/2/5, Merlyn wrote:
>I think the discussion between Horace and I on the mechanics behind
>magnetism has an application here. As Horace pointed out to me, Jefimenko
>has shown how the magnetic field of a moving charge is due to the
>retardation of the electric field do to signal speed (electrical
>dopplering).

Magnetism is not really due to dopplering, which is a frequency shift.
Retardation and doppler shift are two different things, though both are
related to velocity. Doppler shift can only affect frequency, which in the
case of photons does indeed affect the momentum transfer itself. However,
retardation also affects the *direction* of the applied force.


>This would imply that there is no way to manifest a magnetic monopole
>because a stationary magnetic field does not exist.

This does not necessarily follow. Jefimenko demonstrates that, applying
relativity, the electric field can be derived from a magnetic field. He
feels therefore, when examined from the perspective of relativity, they are
co-fields. If monopoles exist, then they can generate "apparent" electric
fields just like charged particles can generate "apparent" magnetic fields.
Symmetry, if it actually means anything in this case, indicates monopoles
should or at least might actually exist.

Regards,

Horace Heffner




Merlyn
Magickal Engineer and Technical Metaphysicist

Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' --0-2028301064-1107531727=:66976-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 4 08:38:34 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j14GcFjA029577; Fri, 4 Feb 2005 08:38:21 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j14GbxVi029418; Fri, 4 Feb 2005 08:37:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 08:37:59 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2005 11:35:49 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: There is No Tomorrow, by Bill Moyers In-reply-to: To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57507 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This thread is nothing more than an expanding pile of garbage. Harry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 4 08:47:12 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j14GkhjA001476; Fri, 4 Feb 2005 08:46:48 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j14GkfaK001460; Fri, 4 Feb 2005 08:46:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 08:46:41 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: "Vortex" Subject: RE: There is No Tomorrow, by Bill Moyers Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 11:47:15 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57508 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: When I posted the story of Easter Island yesterday, I tried to imagine the thoughts of the worker whose job it was to cut down the last remaining tree on the island. What could have been going on in his mind??? I strained for a bit and a few words came, but mostly I was blank. The monologue eluded me... Then, as if heaven sent, came Thomas's post. "Yes," I thought as I read, "He's captured the monologue perfectly!" It's as if he pulled that Easter Islander from halfway across the world and 100's of years away, and put him right into my office. I urge you all to read his post carefully, it's the perfect follow on to the Easter Island story. The Easter Island story as told from the point of view of an Islander. K. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 4 11:38:19 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j14JbojA016487; Fri, 4 Feb 2005 11:37:51 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j14JbaQJ016384; Fri, 4 Feb 2005 11:37:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 11:37:36 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <3khj1f$hbcdrv mxip06a.cluster1.charter.net> X-Ironport-AV: i="3.88,179,1102309200"; d="scan'208"; a="582367103:sNHT12878052" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.12 (webedge20-101-197-20030912) From: To: CC: Subject: Re: There is No Tomorrow, by Bill Moyers Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 19:37:28 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57509 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Judge: Order! Order in the courtroom! We will now hear closing statements from the defense. Defense: Thank you, your honor. Personally, I suspect "New Age" has little to do with the current Bill Moyers debate. My reason for bringing the well known journalist into the Vortex courtroom of law was in relation to what he had to say about how certain groups regard... or perhaps I should say DISREGARD, the need to manage our nations energy policy and natural resources, all this in order to promote their personal and philosophical agendas. As you can tell, you honor, from recent outbursts, these personal agendas and philosophical viewpoints are fiercely defended. As far as bringing Joesph Campbell to the attention of the Vortex court, it was to draw attention to the unfortunate and under appreciated concern that those who do not understand the power of how mythology shapes their personal dreams and aspirations, they will be in danger of interpreting the antiquated myths they grew up with both in literal and dogmatic ways. To paraphrase Campbell, it is vital that one's Personal Mythology reflect contemporary issues and values, not the concerns, issues, and values of our forefathers. The point being: One's Personal Mythology will always drive one's dreams and aspirations regardless of whether one is aware of this fact or not. With no clear awareness of how one's own Personal Mythology influences one's perception on reality they will have no clear understanding of what was behind the underlying truths of the myths they grew up with, and unfortunately how these antiquated myths can end up warping and enslaving their personal dreams and a! spirations. The world is hungry for new sources of energy. At present, few new sources are perceived to make a major impact on either our planet's global economy or environment though many in this courtroom have reason to believe that my somewhat pessimistic perception may soon prove to be completely inaccurate. I DO hope I'm wrong, and I hope they are right. In the meantime it makes sense to make do with what we have. Share it. Distribute it fairly. Use it wisely. It is not in this planet's interest to live by, or fight and die under mythologies that justify the squandering and complete disregard of Gaia's resources in the firm belief that the Calvary is just around the corner. I rest my case, your honor. Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 4 12:19:35 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j14KJHjA001960; Fri, 4 Feb 2005 12:19:18 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j14KJGGF001940; Fri, 4 Feb 2005 12:19:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 12:19:16 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2005 15:16:54 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: There is No Tomorrow, by Bill Moyers In-reply-to: <3khj1f$hbcdrv mxip06a.cluster1.charter.net> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57510 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hey wait a minute, the invisible Hand of God distributes energy fairly in a free market place. ;-) Harry orionworks charter.net at orionworks@charter.net wrote: > Judge: > > Order! Order in the courtroom! We will now hear closing statements from the > defense. > > Defense: > > Thank you, your honor. Personally, I suspect "New Age" has little to do with > the current Bill Moyers debate. My reason for bringing the well known > journalist into the Vortex courtroom of law was in relation to what he had to > say about how certain groups regard... or perhaps I should say DISREGARD, the > need to manage our nations energy policy and natural resources, all this in > order to promote their personal and philosophical agendas. As you can tell, > you honor, from recent outbursts, these personal agendas and philosophical > viewpoints are fiercely defended. > > As far as bringing Joesph Campbell to the attention of the Vortex court, it > was to draw attention to the unfortunate and under appreciated concern that > those who do not understand the power of how mythology shapes their personal > dreams and aspirations, they will be in danger of interpreting the antiquated > myths they grew up with both in literal and dogmatic ways. To paraphrase > Campbell, it is vital that one's Personal Mythology reflect contemporary > issues and values, not the concerns, issues, and values of our forefathers. > The point being: One's Personal Mythology will always drive one's dreams and > aspirations regardless of whether one is aware of this fact or not. With no > clear awareness of how one's own Personal Mythology influences one's > perception on reality they will have no clear understanding of what was behind > the underlying truths of the myths they grew up with, and unfortunately how > these antiquated myths can end up warping and enslaving their personal dreams > and a! > spirations. > > The world is hungry for new sources of energy. At present, few new sources are > perceived to make a major impact on either our planet's global economy or > environment though many in this courtroom have reason to believe that my > somewhat pessimistic perception may soon prove to be completely inaccurate. I > DO hope I'm wrong, and I hope they are right. In the meantime it makes sense > to make do with what we have. Share it. Distribute it fairly. Use it wisely. > It is not in this planet's interest to live by, or fight and die under > mythologies that justify the squandering and complete disregard of Gaia's > resources in the firm belief that the Calvary is just around the corner. > > I rest my case, your honor. > > > Steven Vincent Johnson > www.OrionWorks.com > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 4 13:08:05 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j14L7cjA021135; Fri, 4 Feb 2005 13:07:38 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j14L7Ztn021114; Fri, 4 Feb 2005 13:07:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 13:07:35 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=ezS/CiJnxzV6ZkyiYN+N4AzBu0NnyAf4KJ1Fp06MLXEedh1puUnaKeGR/6ndOkPv; Message-ID: <410-220052542071260 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: The 1934 Dee Experiment Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 14:07:12 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9404db03901aa73c3009dc954542869578c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.117.49 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57511 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Interesting reading, Jed. But EBW machines running at 100 Kilovolts at 100 milliamperes could give more bang for the buck as a 250 kilovolt 100 microampere Deuteron beam, with a lot less expense. Lots of custom EB "Job Shops" available worldwide. Frederick http://www.twi.co.uk/j32k/protected/band_3/ksas001.html "Electron Beam Welding (EBW) is a fusion process for joining metals which uses a highly focused beam of electrons as a heat source. Usually the electrons are extracted from a hot cathode, accelerated by a high potential - typically 30,000-200,000 volts, and magnetically focused into a spot with a power density of the order of 30,000 W/mm 2 . This causes almost instantaneous local melting and vaporisation of the workpiece material. The electron beam is thus able to establish a 'keyhole' delivering heat, deep into the material being welded. This produces a characteristically narrow, near parallel, fusion zone allowing plain abutting edges to be welded in a single pass for material thicknesses ranging from less than 0.1mm to greater than 200mm." " It is also possible to project high power electron beams into the atmosphere and produce single pass welds in steel in thicknesses of more that 40mm, but the weld width is typically greater than welds made in vacuum." ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

Interesting reading, Jed.
 
But EBW machines running at 100 Kilovolts at 100 milliamperes could give
more bang for the buck as a 250 kilovolt 100 microampere Deuteron beam, with a lot
less expense.  Lots of custom EB "Job Shops" available worldwide.
 
Frederick
 

http://www.twi.co.uk/j32k/protected/band_3/ksas001.html

"Electron Beam Welding (EBW) is a fusion process for joining metals which uses a highly focused beam of electrons as a heat source. Usually the electrons are extracted from a hot cathode, accelerated by a high potential - typically 30,000-200,000 volts, and magnetically focused into a spot with a power density of the order of 30,000 W/mm 2 . This causes almost instantaneous local melting and vaporisation of the workpiece material. The electron beam is thus able to establish a 'keyhole' delivering heat, deep into the material being welded. This produces a characteristically narrow, near parallel, fusion zone allowing plain abutting edges to be welded in a single pass for material thicknesses ranging from less than 0.1mm to greater than 200mm."

" It is also possible to project high power electron beams into the atmosphere and produce single pass welds in steel in thicknesses of more that 40mm, but the weld width is typically greater than welds made in vacuum."

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 4 13:16:51 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j14LGQjA025168; Fri, 4 Feb 2005 13:16:27 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j14LGLl1025117; Fri, 4 Feb 2005 13:16:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 13:16:21 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 12:25:29 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: understanding Laser Propulsion Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57512 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 7:42 AM 2/4/5, Merlyn wrote: >True, the traditional doppler shift is a change in frequency, brought >about by the retardation of the signal due to travel time. This is not correct. The Doppler shift is independent of travel time. It is only dependent on the transmission medium speed and the relative speeds of the source and observer. Two observers at wildly different distances but moving in the same reference frame observe the same frequency. Two observers right next to each other, but having a relative velocity, observe differing frequencies. This is true of both the mundane Doppler shift in an ordinary medium and the relativisitic Doppler shift in the vacuum. >Thus I apply the same basic terminology to the change in field gradient >caused by the retardation of the signal due to travel time. > >I have never been able to agree with relativity, there is no physical >mechanism which would cause the speed of light to be constant in all >directions in all inertial reference frames. >Of course, I don't believe in photons either. I think the quantization of >light is more an artifact of the measuring system than an actual quality >of light. While it is fun to try to dream up alternative theories, science is not a religion. Beliefs are not the aribters of scientific facts. Experiment is the only arbiter. To establish an alternative theory it is essential to establish that it agrees with all known experiments and additionally that it works in some situation where other theories do not. Meanwhile, relativity works wonders at the engineering level. Whether it is ultimately right or wrong is immaterial at the engineering level, where it always seems to work and thus has great utility. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 4 13:45:57 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j14LjjjA006979; Fri, 4 Feb 2005 13:45:45 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j14Ljh67006959; Fri, 4 Feb 2005 13:45:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 13:45:43 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2005 16:43:53 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: understanding Laser Propulsion In-reply-to: To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57513 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner at hheffner mtaonline.net wrote: . > > > While it is fun to try to dream up alternative theories, science is not a > religion. Science is the work of many religions. Harry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 4 14:04:31 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j14M4FjA014947; Fri, 4 Feb 2005 14:04:15 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j14M4BkL014905; Fri, 4 Feb 2005 14:04:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 14:04:11 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050204170032.02a501d0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2005 17:03:53 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Good energy flow flowchart from Lawrence Livermore Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_2417828==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57514 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_2417828==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Matt McConnell pointed this out to me: http://www.theenergyguy.com/USEnFlow00-quads.pdf - Jed --=====================_2417828==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Matt McConnell pointed this out to me:

http://www.theenergyguy.com/USEnFlow00-quads.pdf

- Jed
 --=====================_2417828==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 4 15:08:11 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j14N7ujA006890; Fri, 4 Feb 2005 15:07:57 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j14N7sXk006876; Fri, 4 Feb 2005 15:07:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 15:07:54 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=djOfJ07kn0EzRlyHiJvZyRT3Rltgn8YDHtS1RxaHQeuXUt1QEnWH/7APVBKwA2jM; Message-ID: <410-2200525422731350 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Plasma Arc Window For Non Vacuum EB Welding Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 16:07:31 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940e62404bcc91ce03fb2eebe34ea1fcf23350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.28 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57515 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII A BNL Spin-Off that could have CF applications: Uploaded Kim's analysis of the 1934 Dee experiment http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/KimYEpossibleeva.pdf http://www.bnl.gov/bnlweb/pubaf/pr/2001/bnlpr121101b.htm http://www.acceleroninc.com/plasmawindow/plasmawindow.htm "On April 29, 2004 Acceleron LLC demonstrated to the DOE and NU non-vacuum electron beam welding with an electron beam that was transmitted from machine vacuum to atmosphere through the plasma window. The attendees were able to witness that Acceleron has successfully accomplished electron beam welding with this new technology. During the demonstration we welded 3 consecutive samples that showed repeatable results. The non-vacuum welding was performed with a low-power electron beam welder (6 kW), which in itself is quite remarkable." "Perhaps the most exciting new development from this program to date is the possibility of Plasma projection. This new invention is currently being written and the patent application will soon be submitted. This new technology will allow for "Plasma Shielding for In-Air and Under-Water Beam Processes."" Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

A BNL Spin-Off  that could have CF applications:
 
 
 
 
 
 
"On April 29, 2004 Acceleron LLC demonstrated to the DOE and NU non-vacuum electron beam welding with an electron beam that was transmitted from machine vacuum to atmosphere through the plasma window. The attendees were able to witness that Acceleron has successfully accomplished electron beam welding with this new technology. During the demonstration we welded 3 consecutive samples that showed repeatable results. The non-vacuum welding was performed with a low-power electron beam welder (6 kW), which in itself is quite remarkable."

"Perhaps the most exciting new development from this program to date is the possibility of Plasma projection. This new invention is currently being written and the patent application will soon be submitted. This new technology will allow for "Plasma Shielding for In-Air and Under-Water Beam Processes.""

Frederick

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 5 02:12:26 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j15ACHog029629; Sat, 5 Feb 2005 02:12:17 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j15AC435029551; Sat, 5 Feb 2005 02:12:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 02:12:04 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 01:21:14 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: A last resort attack on global warming Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57516 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Given that all else fails to stop global warming, and action is taken soon enough that a 10 percent reduction in the solar insolation factor over the EM band around 10^-6 m, from latitudes 50 to -50, then the following is suggested as a rough first estimate of how this might be done. The objective might be met by dispersing orbiting aluminum nanopowder from latitudes 50 to -50, at, say, an altitude of about 800 km. This might be accomplished by deploying a ring of satellites that orbit between those latitudes, and then firing rockets in a direction normal to the direction of travel and a radial line through the earths center and such a satellite. The rocket firing would thus not change the orbit altitude, only the poles of the orbit. During the firing the nanopowder would be deployed, possibly into the exhaust. It might be possible to design an electric rocket that uses the nanopowder as a reaction mass, and which runs on solar power. It is presently possible to obtain metal nanopowders of dimension 8 nm. These then have volume of (8x10^9 m)^3 = 5.12x10^-22 m^3/particle, or 1.95x10^21 particles/m^3 of, say, aluminum. Aluminum weighs 2.70 g/cm^2 = 2700 kg/m^3. There is thus (1.95x10^21 particles/m^3)/(2700 kg/m^3) = 7.22x10^17 particles/kg. If we assume that one such particle can reflect incoming photons of about 10^-6 m wavelength about 10 percent of the time within a radius of 10^-6 m, then each nanoparticle has the required coverage of Pi*(10^-6 m)^2 = 3.14x10^-12 m^2. This gives a coverage of (7.22x10^17 particle/kg)(3.14x10^-12 m^2/particle) = 2.98x10^6 m^2/kg. The radius of the earth is 6.38x10^6 m, and if we deploy at 800 km then the effective radius of our deployment sphere is 7.18x10^6 m. Given that the area of the zone of a sphere is 2 Pi R h, the total deployment area is 2*Pi*(7.18x10^6 m)*((7.18x10^6 m)*sin(50 deg.)) = 2*Pi*(7.18x10^6 m)^2*(.766) = 4.96x10^14 m^2. The total deployed mass is thus (4.96x10^14 m^2)/(2.98 m^2/kg) = 1.66x10^8 kg, or 166,000 metric tons. Assuming the deployment of this amount of payload can get the price down to $10,000/kg, the cost of deployment is (1.66x10^8 kg)($10,000/kg) = $1.66x10^12. The price of, for a limited time, saving the earth when it is at the defined point of stress is about 1.7 trillion dollars. The worst assumption in this rough first estimate is probably the assumption that an 8 nanometer particle can provide 10 percent reflection back into space of low infrared to visible radiation, radiation averaging about 10^-6 m wavelength, over an area about (10^-6 m)^2. Ultimately the nanopowder will reenter the earth's atmosphere, but before doing so, might tend to form an equatorial ring, which will continue to give partial shelter from solar heating during both winter and summer, but not during the solstices. Hopefully such a dispersal will be planned to occur at sufficient altitude that it will last long enough for us, or subsequent generations, to solve the global warming problem. This is really a last ditch effort, and may be totally unnecessary. There is enough methane hydrate in the Northern hemisphere to meet all our needs for generations, probably well over 1x10^14 CF. If that gas can be produced and converted to hydrogen, without burning the carbon in the process, and all the carbon in the gas is converted to construction materials, the carbon dioxide in the earth's atmosphere hopefully would diminish at a sufficient rate to avoid runaway warming. I hope I got this all right. It's late. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 5 02:20:28 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j15AKJog031999; Sat, 5 Feb 2005 02:20:19 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j15AKGR7031979; Sat, 5 Feb 2005 02:20:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 02:20:16 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 01:29:40 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: A last resort attack on global warming Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57517 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Given that all else fails to stop global warming, and action is taken soon enough that a 10 percent reduction in the solar insolation factor over the EM band around 10^-6 m, from latitudes 50 to -50, can stop or reverse the warming, then the following is suggested as a rough first estimate of how this might be done. The objective might be met by dispersing orbiting aluminum nanopowder from latitudes 50 to -50, at, say, an altitude of about 800 km. This might be accomplished by deploying a ring of satellites that orbit between those latitudes, and then firing rockets in a direction normal to the direction of travel and a radial line through the earths center and such a satellite. The rocket firing would thus not change the orbit altitude, only the poles of the orbit. In this manner the nanpowder would be deployed at a constant altitude. During the firing the nanopowder would be deployed, possibly into the exhaust. It might be possible to design an electric rocket that uses the nanopowder as a reaction mass, and which runs on solar power. It is presently possible to obtain metal nanopowders of dimension 8 nm. These then have volume of (8x10^9 m)^3 = 5.12x10^-22 m^3/particle, or 1.95x10^21 particles/m^3 of, say, aluminum. Aluminum weighs 2.70 g/cm^2 = 2700 kg/m^3. There is thus (1.95x10^21 particles/m^3)/(2700 kg/m^3) = 7.22x10^17 particles/kg. If we assume that one such particle can reflect incoming photons of about 10^-6 m wavelength about 10 percent of the time within a radius of 10^-6 m, then each nanoparticle has the required coverage of Pi*(10^-6 m)^2 = 3.14x10^-12 m^2. This gives a coverage of (7.22x10^17 particle/kg)(3.14x10^-12 m^2/particle) = 2.98x10^6 m^2/kg. The radius of the earth is 6.38x10^6 m, and if we deploy at 800 km then the effective radius of our deployment sphere is 7.18x10^6 m. Given that the area of the zone of a sphere is 2 Pi R h, the total deployment area is 2*Pi*(7.18x10^6 m)*((7.18x10^6 m)*sin(50 deg.)) = 2*Pi*(7.18x10^6 m)^2*(.766) = 4.96x10^14 m^2. The total deployed mass is thus (4.96x10^14 m^2)/(2.98 m^2/kg) = 1.66x10^8 kg, or 166,000 metric tons. Assuming the deployment of this amount of payload can get the price down to $10,000/kg, the cost of deployment is (1.66x10^8 kg)($10,000/kg) = $1.66x10^12. The price of, for a limited time, saving the earth when it is at the defined point of stress is about 1.7 trillion dollars. The worst assumption in this rough first estimate is probably the assumption that an 8 nanometer particle can provide 10 percent reflection back into space of low infrared to visible radiation, radiation averaging about 10^-6 m wavelength, over an area about (10^-6 m)^2. Ultimately the nanopowder will reenter the earth's atmosphere, but before doing so, might tend to form an equatorial ring, which will continue to give partial shelter from solar heating during both winter and summer, but not during the solstices. Hopefully such a dispersal will be planned to occur at sufficient altitude that it will last long enough for us, or subsequent generations, to solve the global warming problem. This is really a last ditch effort, and may be totally unnecessary. There is enough methane hydrate in the Northern hemisphere to meet all our needs for generations, probably well over 1x10^14 CF. If that gas can be produced and converted to hydrogen, without burning the carbon in the process, and all the carbon in the gas is converted to construction materials, the carbon dioxide in the earth's atmosphere hopefully would diminish at a sufficient rate to avoid runaway warming. I hope I got this all right. It's late. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 5 04:18:28 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j15CIFog002841; Sat, 5 Feb 2005 04:18:16 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j15CIDlS002824; Sat, 5 Feb 2005 04:18:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 04:18:13 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=O4RRv6PXikvjKp8GZWFPuPpiQzUPJ5dm/Vcz9u77/jJYhwcTDT15mB9j9cCL2mmy; Message-ID: <410-22005265111747820 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Self-Healing Electron Beam Penetration Wall? Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 05:17:47 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940ce4c28fa4355537faff154d1ca8e67ce350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.17 Resent-Message-ID: <1-ZE2D.A.-r.FmLBCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57518 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII In line with the possibility of CF-type reactions with 250 kilovolt at 100 microamp deuteron beams (25 watts) referred to in the lenr-canr files: http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/KimYEpossibleeva.pdf Electron Beam Welding (EBW) machines can produce 30 Kilowatts or more with 150 kilovolt electron beams having a beam diameter of 0.4 millimeters at a focal distance of 1200 millimeters: http://www.steigerwald-eb.de/pdf/ebogen-e.pdf This begs the question of self-healing "windows" platinum or gold in a chamber containing D2O at high temperature-pressure (in contact with, but, well below the melting point of the window) being able to maintain the high vacuum required for the (continuous or pulsed) EB gun? Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

In line with the possibility of CF-type reactions with 250 kilovolt at 100 microamp
deuteron beams (25 watts) referred to in the lenr-canr files:
 
 
Electron Beam Welding (EBW) machines can produce 30 Kilowatts or more
with 150 kilovolt electron beams having a beam diameter of 0.4 millimeters
at a focal distance of 1200 millimeters:
 
This begs the question of self-healing "windows" platinum or gold in a chamber
containing D2O at high temperature-pressure (in contact with, but, well below the melting point of the window)  being able to maintain the high vacuum required for the (continuous or pulsed) EB gun?
 
Frederick
 
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 5 07:00:12 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j15F02ok029536; Sat, 5 Feb 2005 07:00:06 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j15EvUpu028387; Sat, 5 Feb 2005 06:57:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 06:57:30 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=wWEu6it2NhIjMSbI5x3lLIIYKzSTjPeh2IL77GqpZj6ZLPQ8KqjgxUmmbdiU32Kq40mQ93kjMncD8t/3LhkHXgwi9iPD1FX95Ulivohr/HeWhoAuW4sMkEWvqVPaApIwMvCz++tuksMrFfCbsCWDyPd8L9l1XYE1WU/6mi8HtMA= ; Message-ID: <20050205145721.98363.qmail web51705.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 06:57:21 -0800 (PST) From: Terry Blanton Subject: Re: A last resort attack on global warming To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <6ft_yD.A.c7G.Z7NBCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57519 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- Horace Heffner wrote: > The objective might be met by dispersing orbiting > aluminum nanopowder Some believe this is already underway though at lower altitudes: http://www.unknowncountry.com/news/?id=1108 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 5 08:08:42 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j15G8Qog024589; Sat, 5 Feb 2005 08:08:30 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j15G8NWB024568; Sat, 5 Feb 2005 08:08:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 08:08:23 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 07:17:49 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: A last resort attack on global warming Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57520 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 6:57 AM 2/5/5, Terry Blanton wrote: >--- Horace Heffner wrote: > >> The objective might be met by dispersing orbiting >> aluminum nanopowder > >Some believe this is already underway though at lower >altitudes: > >http://www.unknowncountry.com/news/?id=1108 This is horrific stuff, if true. Now you mention this, maybe nano-aluminum is not such a great idea. It all comes back down to earth sooner or later, and aluminum has been linked to dementia. Aluminum or aluminum oxide in the lungs is not good either. Something the body can use and absorb might be better, like iron or calcium. It would take some research to create a benign but light and effective nanopowder for photon absorbtion in space. Still, dumping kilotons of aluminum into space as a last resort is a lot better than stewing every living thing. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 5 08:28:17 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j15GS1og031860; Sat, 5 Feb 2005 08:28:05 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j15GRx61031812; Sat, 5 Feb 2005 08:27:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 08:27:59 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20050205162751.48577.qmail web81107.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 08:27:51 -0800 (PST) From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: A last resort attack on global warming To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57521 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- Horace Heffner wrote: > Given that all else fails to stop global warming, and action is taken soon enough that a 10 percent reduction in the solar insolation factor [snip] The total deployed mass is thus 166,000 metric tons. The price is about 1.7 trillion dollars. INTERESTING... and a bargain for Western Society, but there could be a less costly alternative. Another possiblility, assuming that space robotics is perfected for use with Hubble etc. and the international space statioin can be adapted for such is the capture - and then the conversion over time of a meteorite into the appropriate sized nano-powder which can then be dispersed robotically at the appropriate altitudes. "Orbital Capture of Meteoroids in Grazing Earth Encounters" http://www.aas.org/publications/baas/v26n2/aas184/abs/S1404.html This does happen naturally periodically but we would have to be prepared to act quickly to stabilize the orbit and attach robotic mini-factories to the meteroid. Not Sci-Fi any more... more like a survival imperative if something else does not come along soon to save us from oil addiction. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 5 08:46:57 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j15Gkkog008956; Sat, 5 Feb 2005 08:46:47 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j15GkiTJ008939; Sat, 5 Feb 2005 08:46:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 08:46:44 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20050205164634.84282.qmail web81104.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 08:46:34 -0800 (PST) From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: A last resort attack on global warming To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <20050205162751.48577.qmail web81107.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57522 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I wrote (before following "leads" from Terry's reference) > Another possiblility, assuming that space robotics is > perfected for use with Hubble etc. Had I looked further on this authoritative site I would have found http://www.flatwoodsmonster.com/ and realized that the "authorities" have already probably reverse-engineered such a robot as far back as 1952. "One of the strange objects crash-landed on a rural hilltop in Flatwoods, West Virginia. A group of schoolboys saw the object maneuver across the sky and seemingly fall to Earth.... Soon a twelve-foot tall being [robot] from the downed craft terrified these innocent people. This being became known as “The Flatwoods Monster,” or “The Braxton County Monster.”   Whoa... why should we be worrying about globabl warming with this kind of thing going on in West-by-god Virginee.... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 5 09:10:18 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j15H9uog016286; Sat, 5 Feb 2005 09:09:57 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j15H9sth016267; Sat, 5 Feb 2005 09:09:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 09:09:54 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: A last resort attack on global warming Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 12:10:19 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57523 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hey Horace, Given that powdered metals in general make good catalysts for chemical reactions, I'm not sure they are appropriate for this application. Wouldn't something inert and light ( Boron perhaps ) be better? OTOH, if you could tailor the catalyzed reactions to clean and repair the upper atmosphere, you could solve two problems at once. Getting the powder into position won't be cheap with rockets. If we have the luxury of some time, loading the tops of the big volcanos with powder might be a cheap way to blast great wads of the stuff into space, assuming we get lucky and the ole girl takes some pity on us. You know, the greatest failing of the environmental movement was/is to frame the debate in terms of saving nature. This planet was once a dead rock, now it is alive. We can ruin the planet, and in some huge span of time it will recover. Humans, on the other hand, will not. Evironmentalists need to stress that point. It's ultimately not about saving the spotted owl, it's about saving your own personal behinds. K. -----Original Message----- From: Horace Heffner [mailto:hheffner mtaonline.net] Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2005 5:21 AM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: A last resort attack on global warming Given that all else fails to stop global warming, and action is taken soon enough that a 10 percent reduction in the solar insolation factor over the EM band around 10^-6 m, from latitudes 50 to -50, then the following is suggested as a rough first estimate of how this might be done. The objective might be met by dispersing orbiting aluminum nanopowder from latitudes 50 to -50, at, say, an altitude of about 800 km. This might be accomplished by deploying a ring of satellites that orbit between those latitudes, and then firing rockets in a direction normal to the direction of travel and a radial line through the earths center and such a satellite. The rocket firing would thus not change the orbit altitude, only the poles of the orbit. During the firing the nanopowder would be deployed, possibly into the exhaust. It might be possible to design an electric rocket that uses the nanopowder as a reaction mass, and which runs on solar power. It is presently possible to obtain metal nanopowders of dimension 8 nm. These then have volume of (8x10^9 m)^3 = 5.12x10^-22 m^3/particle, or 1.95x10^21 particles/m^3 of, say, aluminum. Aluminum weighs 2.70 g/cm^2 = 2700 kg/m^3. There is thus (1.95x10^21 particles/m^3)/(2700 kg/m^3) = 7.22x10^17 particles/kg. If we assume that one such particle can reflect incoming photons of about 10^-6 m wavelength about 10 percent of the time within a radius of 10^-6 m, then each nanoparticle has the required coverage of Pi*(10^-6 m)^2 = 3.14x10^-12 m^2. This gives a coverage of (7.22x10^17 particle/kg)(3.14x10^-12 m^2/particle) = 2.98x10^6 m^2/kg. The radius of the earth is 6.38x10^6 m, and if we deploy at 800 km then the effective radius of our deployment sphere is 7.18x10^6 m. Given that the area of the zone of a sphere is 2 Pi R h, the total deployment area is 2*Pi*(7.18x10^6 m)*((7.18x10^6 m)*sin(50 deg.)) = 2*Pi*(7.18x10^6 m)^2*(.766) = 4.96x10^14 m^2. The total deployed mass is thus (4.96x10^14 m^2)/(2.98 m^2/kg) = 1.66x10^8 kg, or 166,000 metric tons. Assuming the deployment of this amount of payload can get the price down to $10,000/kg, the cost of deployment is (1.66x10^8 kg)($10,000/kg) = $1.66x10^12. The price of, for a limited time, saving the earth when it is at the defined point of stress is about 1.7 trillion dollars. The worst assumption in this rough first estimate is probably the assumption that an 8 nanometer particle can provide 10 percent reflection back into space of low infrared to visible radiation, radiation averaging about 10^-6 m wavelength, over an area about (10^-6 m)^2. Ultimately the nanopowder will reenter the earth's atmosphere, but before doing so, might tend to form an equatorial ring, which will continue to give partial shelter from solar heating during both winter and summer, but not during the solstices. Hopefully such a dispersal will be planned to occur at sufficient altitude that it will last long enough for us, or subsequent generations, to solve the global warming problem. This is really a last ditch effort, and may be totally unnecessary. There is enough methane hydrate in the Northern hemisphere to meet all our needs for generations, probably well over 1x10^14 CF. If that gas can be produced and converted to hydrogen, without burning the carbon in the process, and all the carbon in the gas is converted to construction materials, the carbon dioxide in the earth's atmosphere hopefully would diminish at a sufficient rate to avoid runaway warming. I hope I got this all right. It's late. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 5 10:19:40 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j15IJRog009167; Sat, 5 Feb 2005 10:19:27 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j15IJODB009149; Sat, 5 Feb 2005 10:19:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 10:19:24 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2005 13:17:31 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: A last resort attack on global warming In-reply-to: To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57524 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Keith Nagel at knagel gis.net wrote: > Getting the powder into position won't be cheap with rockets. > If we have the luxury of some time, loading the tops of the > big volcanos with powder might be a cheap way to blast great > wads of the stuff into space, assuming we get lucky and the > ole girl takes some pity on us. Just thought. Nowadays it is common to question the gender of God. I think it is time to question the gender of Nature and the Earth. The ole girl? Why not the ole man? I think concepts of gender and sexuality influence theory formation. Harry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 5 10:28:30 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j15IS8og012344; Sat, 5 Feb 2005 10:28:13 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j15IS6NH012303; Sat, 5 Feb 2005 10:28:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 10:28:06 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000f01c50bb0$6b4a2ca0$85017841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Nature/ creation is inherently masculine Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 12:27:58 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000B_01C50B7E.202DE270" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-99.8 required=4.0 tests=HTML_50_60,HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: <1bhNo.A.HAD.1ARBCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57525 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C50B7E.202DE270 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000C_01C50B7E.202DE270" ------=_NextPart_001_000C_01C50B7E.202DE270 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankWhy so you say? Because everything in nature has its stinger out !! Richard ------=_NextPart_001_000C_01C50B7E.202DE270 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Why so you say? Because everything in nature = has its=20 stinger out !!
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_000C_01C50B7E.202DE270-- ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C50B7E.202DE270 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000a01c50bb0$6ac237f0$85017841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C50B7E.202DE270-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 5 10:51:21 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j15Iouog020314; Sat, 5 Feb 2005 10:50:57 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j15Iot0t020299; Sat, 5 Feb 2005 10:50:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 10:50:55 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "John Steck" To: Subject: RE: A last resort attack on global warming Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 12:51:32 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57526 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Not that inhaling it is all that good of an idea, but you get more aluminum oxide exposure from your underarm anti-perspirant... yeah, just try and find one that doesn't have it. Nice catch 22 eh? What's the point in being mentally 100% if you are too stinky to be around... ha ha -john -----Original Message----- From: Horace Heffner [mailto:hheffner mtaonline.net] Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2005 10:18 AM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: A last resort attack on global warming At 6:57 AM 2/5/5, Terry Blanton wrote: >--- Horace Heffner wrote: > >> The objective might be met by dispersing orbiting >> aluminum nanopowder > >Some believe this is already underway though at lower >altitudes: > >http://www.unknowncountry.com/news/?id=1108 This is horrific stuff, if true. Now you mention this, maybe nano-aluminum is not such a great idea. It all comes back down to earth sooner or later, and aluminum has been linked to dementia. Aluminum or aluminum oxide in the lungs is not good either. Something the body can use and absorb might be better, like iron or calcium. It would take some research to create a benign but light and effective nanopowder for photon absorbtion in space. Still, dumping kilotons of aluminum into space as a last resort is a lot better than stewing every living thing. Regards, Horace Heffner -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.5 - Release Date: 03-Feb-05 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 5 10:51:25 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j15IpAog020427; Sat, 5 Feb 2005 10:51:11 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j15Ip7HR020398; Sat, 5 Feb 2005 10:51:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 10:51:07 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "John Steck" To: Subject: RE: A last resort attack on global warming Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 12:51:44 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57527 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: If the payload is not sensitive to G-forces why not just rail gun pellets up to the necessary altitude and disperse with a shaped charge? Low cost, known technology. Space fireworks... Such a system could allow non-permanent low orbit clouds of which the density could be cost effectively replenished or adjusted up or down as conditions required. -john -----Original Message----- From: Jones Beene [mailto:jonesb9 pacbell.net] Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2005 10:28 AM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: A last resort attack on global warming --- Horace Heffner wrote: > Given that all else fails to stop global warming, and action is taken soon enough that a 10 percent reduction in the solar insolation factor [snip] The total deployed mass is thus 166,000 metric tons. The price is about 1.7 trillion dollars. INTERESTING... and a bargain for Western Society, but there could be a less costly alternative. Another possiblility, assuming that space robotics is perfected for use with Hubble etc. and the international space statioin can be adapted for such is the capture - and then the conversion over time of a meteorite into the appropriate sized nano-powder which can then be dispersed robotically at the appropriate altitudes. "Orbital Capture of Meteoroids in Grazing Earth Encounters" http://www.aas.org/publications/baas/v26n2/aas184/abs/S1404.html This does happen naturally periodically but we would have to be prepared to act quickly to stabilize the orbit and attach robotic mini-factories to the meteroid. Not Sci-Fi any more... more like a survival imperative if something else does not come along soon to save us from oil addiction. Jones -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.5 - Release Date: 03-Feb-05 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 5 10:54:27 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j15Is8og021577; Sat, 5 Feb 2005 10:54:12 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j15Is7h5021557; Sat, 5 Feb 2005 10:54:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 10:54:07 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20050205185357.45601.qmail web81106.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 10:53:57 -0800 (PST) From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: Nature/ creation is inherently masculine To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <000f01c50bb0$6b4a2ca0$85017841 xptower> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <_eqaTC.A.tQF.OZRBCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57528 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- RC Macaulay wrote: > BlankWhy so you say? Because everything in nature > has its stinger out !! > > Richard Not to mention that this year (starts Feb 12) is the Chinese year of the Cock... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 5 10:55:18 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j15It5og021899; Sat, 5 Feb 2005 10:55:06 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j15It3vG021874; Sat, 5 Feb 2005 10:55:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 10:55:03 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: A last resort attack on global warming Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 13:55:50 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57529 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Harry, That is James Lovelocks gender assignation; I have a hard time thinking of a planet as having a penis or a vagina. OTOH, I've never seen a man give birth to something, so it's maybe more analogous to a woman than a man. Many fathers are absent, and the earth remains beneath our feet. Hence the big penis in the sky meme so dominant in early religious systems, and the ole girl to be trodden upon. As you say, gender and sexuality play important roles in theory formation. A human centered view of the infinite and unknowable. K. -----Original Message----- From: Harry Veeder [mailto:eo200 freenet.carleton.ca] Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2005 1:18 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: A last resort attack on global warming Keith Nagel at knagel gis.net wrote: > Getting the powder into position won't be cheap with rockets. > If we have the luxury of some time, loading the tops of the > big volcanos with powder might be a cheap way to blast great > wads of the stuff into space, assuming we get lucky and the > ole girl takes some pity on us. Just thought. Nowadays it is common to question the gender of God. I think it is time to question the gender of Nature and the Earth. The ole girl? Why not the ole man? I think concepts of gender and sexuality influence theory formation. Harry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 5 12:38:37 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j15KcPog030742; Sat, 5 Feb 2005 12:38:26 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j15KcN32030731; Sat, 5 Feb 2005 12:38:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 12:38:23 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 11:47:49 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: A last resort attack on global warming Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57530 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Glad to see some good ideas flowing on vortex on this thread. A good means of dispersal might be the use of a laser or plasma torch to disperse in atomic form. This atomic form might achieve a much better initial coverage than nanoparticles, but would probably eventually aggregate into nanoparticles in space. This would also have the advantage that the payload could be carried in the more dense solid form. A good light and clean dispersant might be CaO. However, there is a fairly handy source of dispersant mass right in our sky ... the moon. We know that pieces of the moon and similar bodies enter our atmosphere continuously in the form of meteors, so lunar soil should not be too bad a dipersant. One idea that might be devloped is the use of a nuclear power plant that can use lunar soil as a reaction mass. If it is feasible for such a rocket to escape from the moon carrying a decent payload, then single ships could make numerous journeys without refueling. The best scheme might involve low payload ferries that move mass from the moon to lunar orbit, and a second class of ship that brings the mass to earth orbit. Railguns are useful for getting things to a high altitude, but not for getting to orbital speed, to a high tangential velocity, which requires a rocket to go along with the payload. Might be worked out, and a lot of work has been done on this concept, especially for Mars to orbit lifting. Railguns might be an ideal way to get payloads off the moon becuase they can be fired at a nearly tangential angle and the projectile has no air resistance. The projectile would still have to have some thrust capability in order to adjust to an orbit that would no impact the moon on the orbit return, but it could be nominal. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 5 13:20:27 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j15LK7og013425; Sat, 5 Feb 2005 13:20:08 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j15LK5tE013406; Sat, 5 Feb 2005 13:20:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 13:20:05 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: A last resort attack on global warming X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: ID = 7b84137320e539ae3bcf255acd0b8dbd Reply-To: michael.foster excite.com From: "Michael Foster" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: michael.foster excite.com X-Mailer: PHP Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050205211957.71CFD3E7B xprdmailfe6.nwk.excite.com> Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 16:19:57 -0500 (EST) Resent-Message-ID: <0ryO4.A.ZRD.FiTBCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57531 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is an example of how a bunch of really quite intelligent people, i.e., the people on this list, can launch off into something with potentially disastrous results. What if the people on this list had actual political power? What if they could implement this project on a global scale, all with the best of intentions. But so far, I have noticed that this idea is based on an erroneous assumption. That assumption is that aluminum nanoparticles would be reflective. Quite the opposite is true. Finely divided metal particles are almost universally black. They are also usually pyrophoric. For example, the black in black and white photographs is finely divided silver. If you want to do something like this, it would be much better to use a finely divided metal oxide which will remain white when finely divided. M. ========================================================== --- On Sat 02/05, Horace Heffner < hheffner mtaonline.net > wrote: From: Horace Heffner [mailto: hheffner mtaonline.net] To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 11:47:49 -0900 Subject: Re: A last resort attack on global warming Glad to see some good ideas flowing on vortex on this thread.

A good means of dispersal might be the use of a laser or plasma torch to
disperse in atomic form. This atomic form might achieve a much better
initial coverage than nanoparticles, but would probably eventually
aggregate into nanoparticles in space. This would also have the advantage
that the payload could be carried in the more dense solid form.

A good light and clean dispersant might be CaO. However, there is a fairly
handy source of dispersant mass right in our sky ... the moon. We know
that pieces of the moon and similar bodies enter our atmosphere
continuously in the form of meteors, so lunar soil should not be too bad a
dipersant.

One idea that might be devloped is the use of a nuclear power plant that
can use lunar soil as a reaction mass. If it is feasible for such a rocket
to escape from the moon carrying a decent payload, then single ships could
make numerous journeys without refueling. The best scheme might involve
low payload ferries that move mass from the moon to lunar orbit, and a
second class of ship that brings the mass to earth orbit.

Railguns are useful for getting things to a high altitude, but not for
getting to orbital speed, to a high tangential velocity, which requires a
rocket to go along with the payload. Might be worked out, and a lot of
work has been done on this concept, especially for Mars to orbit lifting.
Railguns might be an ideal way to get payloads off the moon becuase they
can be fired at a nearly tangential angle and the projectile has no air
resistance. The projectile would still have to have some thrust capability
in order to adjust to an orbit that would no impact the moon on the orbit
return, but it could be nominal.

Regards,

Horace Heffner


_______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 5 14:00:57 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j15M0jog029314; Sat, 5 Feb 2005 14:00:45 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j15M0gkV029291; Sat, 5 Feb 2005 14:00:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 14:00:42 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: A last resort attack on global warming Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2005 09:00:31 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <2lfa01d4ijb0eep9eep7bqalf51nheqgfp 4ax.com> References: <20050205211957.71CFD3E7B xprdmailfe6.nwk.excite.com> In-Reply-To: <20050205211957.71CFD3E7B xprdmailfe6.nwk.excite.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j15M0aog029240 Resent-Message-ID: <5j_wCB.A.kJH.KIUBCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57532 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Michael Foster's message of Sat, 05 Feb 2005 16:19:57 -0500: Hi, > >This is an example of how a bunch of really quite intelligent people, >i.e., the people on this list, can launch off into something with >potentially disastrous results. What if the people on this list had Agreed. [snip] >That assumption is that aluminum nanoparticles would be reflective. >Quite the opposite is true. Finely divided metal particles are almost >universally black. They are also usually pyrophoric. For example, A fine example of two negatives making a positive. :) If the particles are pyrophoric, then they will inevitably oxidize in the atmosphere, and end up as Al2O3 anyway. [snip] However I am generally troubled by the very nature of the thread. It is a continuation of the "band-aid" approach to medicine (in this case the healing of the planet), where I would prefer to see the actual cause of the problem resolved, rather than the symptoms treated. And the real cause of the problem is the greed of those who maintain a monopoly over energy supply, when unlimited sources of clean energy are available in black projects. IOW they continue to flog oil, even though clean alternatives are available, simply because there is no profit in giving everyone access to free clean energy. Actually that last is not true, there is a huge profit in it, but they are too short sighted and narrow minded to see it. What they want is to maintain a tight grip on the primary source of energy, so that they can flog it off via a secondary energy carrier (hydrogen). This is why the president places an emphasis on the hydrogen economy. Once the latter is in place, they can quietly switch the primary source of energy, and no one will be the wiser. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 5 14:19:28 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j15MJDog003020; Sat, 5 Feb 2005 14:19:14 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j15MJBfd002988; Sat, 5 Feb 2005 14:19:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 14:19:11 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 13:28:33 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: A last resort attack on global warming Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57533 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 9:00 AM 2/6/5, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >In reply to Michael Foster's message of Sat, 05 Feb 2005 16:19:57 -0500: >Hi, >> >>This is an example of how a bunch of really quite intelligent people, >>i.e., the people on this list, can launch off into something with >>potentially disastrous results. What if the people on this list had > >Agreed. Apparently neither of you took the time to notice the title of the thread. "Last resort" means last resort. Also, a black particle is fine. It then merely heats up until the infrared Plank radiation comes to equilibrium with the rate of energy absorbtion. A black particle thus acts to downshift the radiation. Further, the radiation direction for a black pariticle would be at least 50 percent back to space. The original problem was that of obtaining a high absorbtion cross section. However, none of this discussion is relevant any more in that the concept development has moved on to the idea of using lunar soil. There is no practical limit to the amount of such material that could be brought to earth orbit in a multi-trillion dollar project, so the limitations and principle unknowns of the original concept of using aluminum nanopowder are completely circumvented. This is now a concept that can obviously actually be made to work ... as a last resort. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 5 14:48:15 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j15Mm2og012974; Sat, 5 Feb 2005 14:48:03 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j15Mm0UD012948; Sat, 5 Feb 2005 14:48:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 14:48:00 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: A last resort attack on global warming Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2005 09:47:51 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j15Mlvog012882 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57534 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Horace Heffner's message of Sat, 05 Feb 2005 13:28:33 -0900: Hi Horace, [snip] >At 9:00 AM 2/6/5, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >>In reply to Michael Foster's message of Sat, 05 Feb 2005 16:19:57 -0500: >>Hi, >>> >>>This is an example of how a bunch of really quite intelligent people, >>>i.e., the people on this list, can launch off into something with >>>potentially disastrous results. What if the people on this list had >> >>Agreed. > > >Apparently neither of you took the time to notice the title of the thread. >"Last resort" means last resort. I did take the trouble to read the title of the thread. I was troubled by the speed with which people jumped on the band-wagon, IOW the apparent readiness of others to see it is a primary solution rather than a last resort. I am also troubled by the possibility that the oil barons may use it as an excuse to keep on keeping on. There is also the chance that, due to the uncertainties involved, the effect will be too great, and overshoot the mark, resulting in a new ice age. Once such a cloud is in place, it would be next to impossible to get rid of it again, and we may not find out that we have gone too far, until it is too late. In fact there is an SF movie that covers a very similar scenario (one of the Highlander movies?). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 5 14:59:26 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j15MxCog016627; Sat, 5 Feb 2005 14:59:13 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j15MxALi016608; Sat, 5 Feb 2005 14:59:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 14:59:10 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=ZDU+Pl1Us6yxNJcj5lM9m9yzBjrfo0s/byh9dkwSIAZucsewijHBoWJRoHvEIJhX; Message-ID: <410-22005265215846870 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: A last resort attack on global warming Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 15:58:46 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940c5098f4ce5b288d6580e4beafb26c669350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.87.62 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57535 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII A Simple Solution: Just increase the stack height of the Chenney-Bush Coal-Burning (Hydrogen Generating) power plants, and remove the scrubbers so that the "Fly Ash" vents into the stratosphere. Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

A Simple Solution:
 
Just increase the stack height of the Chenney-Bush Coal-Burning (Hydrogen Generating)
power plants, and remove the scrubbers so that the "Fly Ash" vents into the stratosphere.
 
Frederick
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 5 15:11:59 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j15NBZog021710; Sat, 5 Feb 2005 15:11:40 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j15NBXjJ021695; Sat, 5 Feb 2005 15:11:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 15:11:33 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "SnowDog" To: "'vortex-l'" Subject: RE: A last resort attack on global warming Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 17:11:46 -0600 Message-ID: <000f01c50bd8$10a70570$0400a8c0 Craig> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 In-Reply-To: <410-22005265215846870 earthlink.net> Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57536 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >>>Just increase the stack height of the Chenney-Bush Coal-Burning (Hydrogen Generating) power plants, and remove the scrubbers so that the "Fly Ash" vents into the stratosphere. Such ash was originally thought to be the cause of global-cooling, in the 1970s. Craig (Houston) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 5 16:31:48 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j160VZog015595; Sat, 5 Feb 2005 16:31:36 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j160VW61015572; Sat, 5 Feb 2005 16:31:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 16:31:32 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 15:40:58 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: A last resort attack on global warming Resent-Message-ID: <3_NyaB.A.PzD.kVWBCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57537 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 9:47 AM 2/6/5, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >In fact there is an SF movie that covers a very similar scenario (one of >the Highlander movies?). No kidding! What did they put in orbit and how did they get it there? Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 5 17:16:36 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j161GMog028662; Sat, 5 Feb 2005 17:16:23 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j161GLAP028647; Sat, 5 Feb 2005 17:16:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 17:16:21 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: <6f7eff92-0c1e-4612-86ee-acf5a0e1c17c> Message-ID: <007001c50be9$6e9e70d0$e259ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <20050205211957.71CFD3E7B xprdmailfe6.nwk.excite.com> <2lfa01d4ijb0eep9eep7bqalf51nheqgfp@4ax.com> Subject: Re: A last resort attack on global warming Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 20:14:26 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57538 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin wrote: > And the real cause of the problem is the greed of those who maintain a monopoly over energy supply, when unlimited sources of clean energy are available in black projects. IOW they continue to flog oil, even though clean alternatives are available, simply because there is no profit in giving everyone access to free clean energy. There is another possibility which those promoting this idea have not considered. Greer has amassed circumstantial evidence of extensive black programs exploiting technology acquired from ETs, including energy sources. If you stop believing the disinformation about UFOs, there are repeated demonstrations of the existence of propulsion and energy technologies about which we are clueless. The technology may be extremely dangerous in the wrong hands. We fret about nations building nuclear weapons. There is no secret about the general nature of an implosion bomb, but the engineering problems in making an effective one makes us safer. In our terroistic, xenophobic world, there are some toys too dangerous for us. The secrecy may be for our own protection. The technology of BlackLight Power and LENR is more appropriate for our time and temper. BLP may be decently close to commercial exploitation. BLP reactions can yield 100X the energy of combustion of the same amount of hydrogen. Even if these magical technologies were unveiled tomorrow, it would take decades to implement them and adjust the world economy to them. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 5 18:15:12 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j162Elog016149; Sat, 5 Feb 2005 18:14:48 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j162EjZJ016134; Sat, 5 Feb 2005 18:14:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 18:14:46 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <410-2200520621439630 ix.netcom.com> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: aki ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.1.47.0 (Windows) From: "Akira Kawasaki" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: FW: WHAT'S NEW Friday, February 04, 2005 Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 18:14:39 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: c4cc7f5f697e8746f66dc3a06d5924d8238712cda562c442d6d92fccd71e795f3788860f0b40a802350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 216.249.111.213 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57539 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > [Original Message] > From: What's New > To: Akira Kawasaki Date: 2/4/2005 12:16:03 PM Subject: WHAT'S NEW Friday, February 04, 2005 WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 04 Feb 05 Washington, DC 1. STATE OF THE UNION: OUR ANNUAL LOOK AT WHERE SCIENCE FITS IN. This will be brief, since I fell asleep. However, we did a word search on the transcript. Bingo! We got a hit on "scientific research." It came up in a discussion of the need "to build a culture of life." (When was it that "life" became a code word?) The President thanked Congress for doubling NIH funding, but he urged the lawmakers to quit dawdling on his energy strategy, "including safe, clean nuclear energy." That was it for science. 2. HUBBLE: WILL EARTH'S MOST PRODUCTIVE SCIENTIFIC INSTRUMENT DIE? In his opening statement at a hearing on Hubble options, Sherwood Boehlert (R-NY), Chair of the House Science Committee, observed: "One can't help but root for it"; surely he can do more than that. It's widely expected that on Monday the President's asking budget will only include funds to dump Hubble in the Ocean. What madness compels this act? Hubble, Joe Taylor testified, "is still in the prime of its scientific life." Steven Beckwith, director of the Space Telescope Institute, said it's the nation's "most productive science facility." It was designed to be serviced by the shuttle. The James Webb Space Telescope won't go on line before 2011. Even more powerful, we will no doubt come to view JWST with the kind of affection we now feel for Hubble. But long before that happens Hubble is posed to explore dark energy and extrasolar planetary systems. The official explanation for cutting the service mission to Hubble is that, at more than $1B, it's too expensive. Whoa! Lou Lanzerotti testified that it would cost no more than a flight to the ISS, and the nation is committed to 25-30 shuttle flights to the ISS. Would someone tell us what the ISS is doing? And how is NASA paying for 25-30 flights at $1-2B each? Is Ken Lay doing NASA's books? As we pointed out years ago, shuttle arithmetic is not that hard. You just divide the cost of the shuttle program by the number of flights http://www.aps.org/WN/WN93/wn032693.cfm . President's budget or not, it's Congress that controls the purse. 3. PUBLIC ACCESS: AT NIH, ZERHOUNI ANNOUNCES A NEW ACCESS POLICY. The public pays for research done on federal grants as well as the cost of publishing it; they shouldn't have to pay again to see it. Under a new policy that goes into effect on May 2 researchers on NIH grants will be "asked" to submit their results to a public Web site within one year after publication in a scientific journal. There are advantages to having articles in one federal database. However, most journal publishers, including APS Editor in Chief Marty Blume, oppose the policy, fearing it will cut into their subscription base. A leading proponent of free access, former NIH Director Harold Varmus, only regretted that scientists were "asked" to submit their data. He would have preferred "expected." THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND. Opinions are the author's and not necessarily shared by the University of Maryland, but they should be. --- Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.aps.org/WN To subscribe, send a blank e-mail to: From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 5 19:45:31 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j163jIog012861; Sat, 5 Feb 2005 19:45:18 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j163jGaj012849; Sat, 5 Feb 2005 19:45:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 19:45:16 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000c01c50bfe$3f2c6540$15037841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re" a last resort attack on global warming Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 21:45:04 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0008_01C50BCB.F4163590"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-99.5 required=4.0 tests=HTML_40_50,HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57540 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C50BCB.F4163590 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0009_01C50BCB.F4163590" ------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C50BCB.F4163590 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankSeems that if a compound in the earth's statosphere needed to be = removed, the safest method may be by incineration using parapolic shaped = mirror reflectors. The reflectors would be adjustable to focus at a = specific range. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C50BCB.F4163590 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Seems that if a compound in the earth's = statosphere=20 needed to be removed, the safest method may be by incineration using = parapolic=20 shaped mirror reflectors. The reflectors would be adjustable to focus at = a=20 specific range.
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C50BCB.F4163590-- ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C50BCB.F4163590 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000701c50bfe$3ea77dd0$15037841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C50BCB.F4163590-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 5 23:23:23 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j167N53N015069; Sat, 5 Feb 2005 23:23:09 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j167N15m015051; Sat, 5 Feb 2005 23:23:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 23:23:01 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 01:23:59 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: A last resort attack on global warming Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57541 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner posted; >Given that all else fails to stop global warming, and action is taken soon >enough that a 10 percent reduction in the solar insolation factor over the > I've heard some grand schemes Horace, and this is one of the grandest. > >Assuming the deployment of this amount of payload can get the price down to >$10,000/kg, the cost of deployment is (1.66x10^8 kg)($10,000/kg) = I've been told that the Russians will place it in low earth orbit for $100 per pound, plus inflation. Therefore we should be able to get the job done for way less than $10,000 per K gram, unless we were to hire NASA as a contractor, of course. >Ultimately the nanopowder will reenter the earth's atmosphere, but before >doing so, might tend to form an equatorial ring, which will continue to Nothing lasts forever. >process, and all the carbon in the gas is converted to construction >materials, the carbon dioxide in the earth's atmosphere hopefully would >diminish at a sufficient rate to avoid runaway warming. How about building massive Newman motors in the Arctic? Their operation would cool down the environment and the energy they produce can be used to reduce the carbon. Now if we can figure out what to do about those pesky volcanos and the rocks that may be hitting the Sun > >I hope I got this all right. It's late. The time truly is late From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 6 10:06:22 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j16I5oBo029387; Sun, 6 Feb 2005 10:05:56 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j16I5j62029311; Sun, 6 Feb 2005 10:05:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 10:05:45 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-UNTD-OriginStamp: GUNT6dKCgH8aoKLPKyRSHjVrtbPD0po1juL+DirYLKQs+MBXLaI6/g== X-Originating-IP: [65.179.17.152] Mime-Version: 1.0 From: "gesrebspar juno.com" Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 18:04:47 GMT To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: A last resort attack on global warming X-Mailer: WebMail Version 2.0 Content-Type: text/plain Message-Id: <20050206.100454.26462.58789 webmail34.nyc.untd.com> X-ContentStamp: 2:3:3001389934 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57542 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace- Is it not possible that orbiting these nano particles will have the opposite effect than expected. Would they not reflect heat back to the Earth, instead of allowing it to escape . The way that a clear cloudless sky really lets temperature's drop in the winter. Just Wondering - GES From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 6 10:27:39 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j16IRNBo005807; Sun, 6 Feb 2005 10:27:28 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j16IRK9h005784; Sun, 6 Feb 2005 10:27:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 10:27:20 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <420661EA.3040704 ix.netcom.com> Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2005 11:28:58 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex Subject: Role of God in government Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57543 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A It is obvious that several contributors to Vortex hold very strong opinions about the Christian religion. It is also obvious that such opinions are shaping national policy in ways that are not beneficial to the general population. We went to war based on the lie that Iraq had WMD, the social security system is being changed based on several lies, we send our work overseas based on the lie that this is good for our economy, we now have the largest debt of any nation at any time in history based on a lie that this does not matter, and now the fundamental relationship between religion and government is being changed based on a lie. I'm interested to know how people who support the present government justify this approach and how this tendency to lie squares with their understanding of the Christian religion. If a person supports obvious lies, how can anything they say be trusted? Regards, Ed Storms Our Godless Constitution WASHINGTON, Feb. 6, 2005 Church And State Voters (Photo: AP / CBS) Our nation was founded not on Christian principles but on Enlightenment ones. God only entered the picture as a very minor player, and Jesus Christ was conspicuously absent. (The Nation) This column from The Nation was written by Brooke Allen. It is hard to believe that George Bush has ever read the works of George Orwell, but he seems, somehow, to have grasped a few Orwellian precepts. The lesson the President has learned best -- and certainly the one that has been the most useful to him -- is the axiom that if you repeat a lie often enough, people will believe it. One of his Administration's current favorites is the whopper about America having been founded on Christian principles. Our nation was founded not on Christian principles but on Enlightenment ones. God only entered the picture as a very minor player, and Jesus Christ was conspicuously absent. Our Constitution makes no mention whatever of God. The omission was too obvious to have been anything but deliberate, in spite of Alexander Hamilton's flippant responses when asked about it: According to one account, he said that the new nation was not in need of "foreign aid"; according to another, he simply said "we forgot." But as Hamilton's biographer Ron Chernow points out, Hamilton never forgot anything important. In the eighty-five essays that make up The Federalist, God is mentioned only twice (both times by Madison, who uses the word, as Gore Vidal has remarked, in the "only Heaven knows" sense). In the Declaration of Independence, He gets two brief nods: a reference to "the Laws of Nature and Nature's God," and the famous line about men being "endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights." More blatant official references to a deity date from long after the founding period: "In God We Trust" did not appear on our coinage until the Civil War, and "under God" was introduced into the Pledge of Allegiance during the McCarthy hysteria in 1954 [see Elisabeth Sifton, "The Battle Over the Pledge," April 5, 2004]. In 1797 our government concluded a "Treaty of Peace and Friendship between the United States of America and the Bey and Subjects of Tripoli, or Barbary," now known simply as the Treaty of Tripoli. Article 11 of the treaty contains these words: "As the Government of the United States... is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion -- as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity of Musselmen -- and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries." This document was endorsed by Secretary of State Timothy Pickering and President John Adams. It was then sent to the Senate for ratification; the vote was unanimous. It is worth pointing out that although this was the 339th time a recorded vote had been required by the Senate, it was only the third unanimous vote in the Senate's history. There is no record of debate or dissent. The text of the treaty was printed in full in the Philadelphia Gazette and in two New York papers, but there were no screams of outrage, as one might expect today. The Founding Fathers were not religious men, and they fought hard to erect, in Thomas Jefferson's words, "a wall of separation between church and state." John Adams opined that if they were not restrained by legal measures, Puritans -- the fundamentalists of their day -- would "whip and crop, and pillory and roast." The historical epoch had afforded these men ample opportunity to observe the corruption to which established priesthoods were liable, as well as "the impious presumption of legislators and rulers," as Jefferson wrote, "civil as well as ecclesiastical, who, being themselves but fallible and uninspired men, have assumed dominion over the faith of others, setting up their own opinions and modes of thinking as the only true and infallible, and as such endeavoring to impose them on others, hath established and maintained false religions over the greatest part of the world and through all time." If we define a Christian as a person who believes in the divinity of Jesus Christ, then it is safe to say that some of the key Founding Fathers were not Christians at all. Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson and Tom Paine were deists -- that is, they believed in one Supreme Being but rejected revelation and all the supernatural elements of the Christian Church; the word of the Creator, they believed, could best be read in Nature. John Adams was a professed liberal Unitarian, but he, too, in his private correspondence seems more deist than Christian. George Washington and James Madison also leaned toward deism, although neither took much interest in religious matters. Madison believed that "religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprize." He spoke of the "almost fifteen centuries" during which Christianity had been on trial: "What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity, in both, superstition, bigotry, and persecution." If Washington mentioned the Almighty in a public address, as he occasionally did, he was careful to refer to Him not as "God" but with some nondenominational moniker like "Great Author" or "Almighty Being." It is interesting to note that the Father of our Country spoke no words of a religious nature on his deathbed, although fully aware that he was dying, and did not ask for a man of God to be present; his last act was to take his own pulse, the consummate gesture of a creature of the age of scientific rationalism. Tom Paine, a polemicist rather than a politician, could afford to be perfectly honest about his religious beliefs, which were baldly deist in the tradition of Voltaire: "I believe in one God, and no more; and I hope for happiness beyond this life.... I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church." This is how he opened The Age of Reason, his virulent attack on Christianity. In it he railed against the "obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness" of the Old Testament, "a history of wickedness, that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind." The New Testament is less brutalizing but more absurd, the story of Christ's divine genesis a "fable, which for absurdity and extravagance is not exceeded by any thing that is to be found in the mythology of the ancients." He held the idea of the Resurrection in especial ridicule: Indeed, "the wretched contrivance with which this latter part is told, exceeds every thing that went before it." Paine was careful to contrast the tortuous twists of theology with the pure clarity of deism. "The true deist has but one Deity; and his religion consists in contemplating the power, wisdom, and benignity of the Deity in his works, and in endeavoring to imitate him in every thing moral, scientifical, and mechanical." Paine's rhetoric was so fervent that he was inevitably branded an atheist. Men like Franklin, Adams and Jefferson could not risk being tarred with that brush, and in fact Jefferson got into a good deal of trouble for continuing his friendship with Paine and entertaining him at Monticello. These statesmen had to be far more circumspect than the turbulent Paine, yet if we examine their beliefs it is all but impossible to see just how theirs differed from his. Franklin was the oldest of the Founding Fathers. He was also the most worldly and sophisticated, and was well aware of the Machiavellian principle that if one aspires to influence the masses, one must at least profess religious sentiments. By his own definition he was a deist, although one French acquaintance claimed that "our free-thinkers have adroitly sounded him on his religion, and they maintain that they have discovered he is one of their own, that is that he has none at all." If he did have a religion, it was strictly utilitarian: As his biographer Gordon Wood has said, "He praised religion for whatever moral effects it had, but for little else." Divine revelation, Franklin freely admitted, had "no weight with me," and the covenant of grace seemed "unintelligible" and "not beneficial." As for the pious hypocrites who have ever controlled nations, "A man compounded of law and gospel is able to cheat a whole country with his religion and then destroy them under color of law" -- a comment we should carefully consider at this turning point in the history of our Republic. Here is Franklin's considered summary of his own beliefs, in response to a query by Ezra Stiles, the president of Yale. He wrote it just six weeks before his death at the age of 84. "Here is my creed. I believe in one God, Creator of the universe. That he governs it by his providence. That he ought to be worshipped. That the most acceptable service we render to him is doing good to his other children. That the soul of Man is immortal, and will be treated with justice in another life respecting its conduct in this. These I take to be the fundamental points in all sound religion, and I regard them as you do in whatever sect I meet with them. As for Jesus of Nazareth, my opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think his system of morals and his religion, as he left them to us, the best the world ever saw or is likely to see; but I apprehend it has received various corrupting changes, and I have, with most of the present dissenters in England, some doubts as to his divinity; though it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with now, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the truth with less trouble. I see no harm, however, in its being believed, if that belief has the good consequence, as it probably has, of making his doctrines more respected and better observed, especially as I do not perceive that the Supreme takes it amiss, by distinguishing the unbelievers in his government of the world with any particular marks of his displeasure." Jefferson thoroughly agreed with Franklin on the corruptions the teachings of Jesus had undergone. "The metaphysical abstractions of Athanasius, and the maniacal ravings of Calvin, tinctured plentifully with the foggy dreams of Plato, have so loaded [Christianity] with absurdities and incomprehensibilities" that it was almost impossible to recapture "its native simplicity and purity." Like Paine, Jefferson felt that the miracles claimed by the New Testament put an intolerable strain on credulity. "The day will come," he predicted (wrongly, so far), "when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter." The Revelation of St. John he dismissed as "the ravings of a maniac." Jefferson edited his own version of the New Testament, "The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth," in which he carefully deleted all the miraculous passages from the works of the Evangelists. He intended it, he said, as "a document in proof that I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus." This was clearly a defense against his many enemies, who hoped to blacken his reputation by comparing him with the vile atheist Paine. His biographer Joseph Ellis is undoubtedly correct, though, in seeing disingenuousness here: "If [Jefferson] had been completely scrupulous, he would have described himself as a deist who admired the ethical teachings of Jesus as a man rather than as the son of God. (In modern-day parlance, he was a secular humanist.)" In short, not a Christian at all. The three accomplishments Jefferson was proudest of -- those that he requested be put on his tombstone -- were the founding of the University of Virginia and the authorship of the Declaration of Independence and the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom. The latter was a truly radical document that would eventually influence the separation of church and state in the U.S. Constitution; when it was passed by the Virginia legislature in 1786, Jefferson rejoiced that there was finally "freedom for the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and the Mohammeden, the Hindu and infidel of every denomination" -- note his respect, still unusual today, for the sensibilities of the "infidel." The University of Virginia was notable among early-American seats of higher education in that it had no religious affiliation whatever. Jefferson even banned the teaching of theology at the school. If we were to speak of Jefferson in modern political categories, we would have to admit that he was a pure libertarian, in religious as in other matters. His real commitment (or lack thereof) to the teachings of Jesus Christ is plain from a famous throwaway comment he made: "It does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg." This raised plenty of hackles when it got about, and Jefferson had to go to some pains to restore his reputation as a good Christian. But one can only conclude, with Ellis, that he was no Christian at all. John Adams, though no more religious than Jefferson, had inherited the fatalistic mindset of the Puritan culture in which he had grown up. He personally endorsed the Enlightenment commitment to Reason but did not share Jefferson's optimism about its future, writing to him, "I wish that Superstition in Religion exciting Superstition in Polliticks... may never blow up all your benevolent and phylanthropic Lucubrations," but that "the History of all Ages is against you." As an old man he observed, "Twenty times in the course of my late reading have I been upon the point of breaking out, 'This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it!'" Speaking ex cathedra, as a relic of the founding generation, he expressed his admiration for the Roman system whereby every man could worship whom, what and how he pleased. When his young listeners objected that this was paganism, Adams replied that it was indeed, and laughed. In their fascinating and eloquent valetudinarian correspondence, Adams and Jefferson had a great deal to say about religion. Pressed by Jefferson to define his personal creed, Adams replied that it was "contained in four short words, 'Be just and good.'" Jefferson replied, "The result of our fifty or sixty years of religious reading, in the four words, 'Be just and good,' is that in which all our inquiries must end; as the riddles of all priesthoods end in four more, 'ubi panis, ibi deus.' What all agree in, is probably right. What no two agree in, most probably wrong." This was a clear reference to Voltaire's Reflections on Religion. As Voltaire put it: "There are no sects in geometry. One does not speak of a Euclidean, an Archimedean. When the truth is evident, it is impossible for parties and factions to arise... Well, to what dogma do all minds agree? To the worship of a God, and to honesty. All the philosophers of the world who have had a religion have said in all ages: 'There is a God, and one must be just.' There, then, is the universal religion established in all ages and throughout mankind. The point in which they all agree is therefore true, and the systems through which they differ are therefore false." Of course all these men knew, as all modern presidential candidates know, that to admit to theological skepticism is political suicide. During Jefferson's presidency a friend observed him on his way to church, carrying a large prayer book. "You going to church, Mr. J," remarked the friend. "You do not believe a word in it." Jefferson didn't exactly deny the charge. "Sir," he replied, "no nation has ever yet existed or been governed without religion. Nor can be. The Christian religion is the best religion that has been given to man and I as chief Magistrate of this nation am bound to give it the sanction of my example. Good morning Sir." Like Jefferson, every recent President has understood the necessity of at least paying lip service to the piety of most American voters. All of our leaders, Democrat and Republican, have attended church, and have made very sure they are seen to do so. But there is a difference between offering this gesture of respect for majority beliefs and manipulating and pandering to the bigotry, prejudice and millennial fantasies of Christian extremists. Though for public consumption the Founding Fathers identified themselves as Christians, they were, at least by today's standards, remarkably honest about their misgivings when it came to theological doctrine, and religion in general came very low on the list of their concerns and priorities -- always excepting, that is, their determination to keep the new nation free from bondage to its rule. By Brooke Allen Reprinted with permission from the The Nation. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 6 10:52:00 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j16IpZBo017101; Sun, 6 Feb 2005 10:51:41 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j16IpW54017073; Sun, 6 Feb 2005 10:51:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 10:51:32 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 10:00:48 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: A last resort attack on global warming Resent-Message-ID: <1f8bYB.A.eKE.zcmBCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57544 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 9:04 AM 2/6/5, gesrebspar juno.com wrote: >Horace- Is it not possible that orbiting these nano particles will > have the opposite effect than expected. > Would they not reflect heat back to the Earth, instead > of allowing it to escape . > The way that a clear cloudless sky really lets > temperature's drop in the winter. > Just Wondering - GES When it comes to ordinary weather you have to ask which is cause and which is effect in this case. A clear sky is due to a high pressure dense atmosphere, i.e. a cold atmosphere and thus dry atmosphere because cooled air will not hold the moisture that hot air does. There is a reinforcing effect in that the reduction in low level cloud cover reduces the reflective (cloud) barrier which prevents surface level heating. Here again, however, low level clouds tend to hold in whatever surface heat is present, so it is another trade-off, though not an equal trade-off. Cold dry high pressure air typically originates in the northern or a cooler region, while hot moist low pressure air typically originates in a warm or southern region. Based on temporary global cooling that occurs after major eruptions, and the cooling that followed Desert Storm, it appears to me clear that high altitude dust can and does prevent light from reaching the troposphere, and thus produces cooling. Yes it is true that such a band will reflect back some radiation toward earth. However, less of it reaches the earth in the first place, so a net cooling effect occurs. Models of the effect in a vacuum could be checked by experiment on the space station. I should also mention that dispersal to a latitude belt extending 50 degrees from the equator was only a first guess. Another latitude number might be better. The idea behind the choice is that a large hole in the polar regions provides an escape route for radiant heat through which the sun can only shine obliquely. All the land upon which the sun shines at a nearly vertical angle is covered. There is a cost/benefit tradeoff in choice of particulate density, latitude band, total particulate mass, particle size, and dispersal altitude. These variables would have to be built into a good supercomputer weather model for optimization purposes. Additionally, rate of loss of orbital altitude as a function of particle size and density would have to be modeled. One of the greatest unknowns is the effect of such a band on the ocean currents. Other effects would have to modeled as well, like the effect on communications, global positioning, nocturnal animals, and space launch capabilities. A lot of work would be required to minimize the bad effects. Still, given no other option to stop global warming if it goes into a runaway mode, these secondary considerations are moot. Environmental impact is not a problem. It is a choice between some habitat or none at all. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 6 12:32:23 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j16KVqBo001794; Sun, 6 Feb 2005 12:32:00 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j16KVckt001660; Sun, 6 Feb 2005 12:31:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 12:31:38 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 11:40:48 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: A last resort attack on global warming Resent-Message-ID: <0mV57D.A.1Z.o6nBCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57545 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 1:23 AM 2/6/5, thomas malloy wrote: >Now if we can figure out what to do about those pesky volcanos and >the rocks that may be hitting the Sun About the rocks hitting the sun, I think the first step toward a solution is an early warning system. Below are some relevant past vortex posts. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - At 1:03 PM 3/19/4, Horace Heffner wrote: >Finding and cataloging all earth orbit crossing asteroids and comets is a >difficult to impossible task - impossible because some may come from the >Ort cloud or beyond and thus not have any possibility of being observed for >a periods of a century or more, much less cataloged. If an object >approaches from out that far it likely has not been around for decades, so >is very unlikely to have been cataloged. > >The only solution that has a chance of providing a really high quality >warning system then it seems lies in building a space based radar system. >Such a radar system would have to be very high powered, and would have to >have a multi-directional receiver for long range and an omni-directional >receiver for short range. It would have to operate 24 hours a day in order >to receive bounce signals. It would probably require a comparatively low >noise environment in its bandwidth. > >The subject radar should generate a continuous signal which is continually >tagged with the time and celestial coordinates at which the beam is aimed. [note - it should also be taggged with the transmitting station ID] >In that manner, when a return signal is received, it is possible to tell >the coordinates of and distance to the object at the time of the signal >bounce from the object. In addition, through doppler analysis, it might be >possible to determine at least one component of the velocity as well. It >likely would take multiple radar platforms with significantly differing >orbits in order to achieve full coverage. > >Using such an asteroid radar system, it should be possible to locate and >catalog all nearby earth orbit crossing objects of significant size, and >also to locate dangerous objects incoming from long range in sufficient >time to either employ an asteroid deflecting system (if such is actually >built) or to make the best possible arrangements for earth populations. > >Such a radar base might be manned, but it seems that NASA has recently both >demonstrated the great potential of and the need for robotic maintenance >capabilites. Robots are clearly the main future of space exploration. >Further, space platforms of the future should be designed in a modular >fashion so as to permit robotic maintenance. If Hubble were so designed, >for example, it could now be robot maintained, and its future would not be >in jeapardy. > >Robots go on one way trips. They do not require re-entry vehicles, crew >compartments, air, water, or waste removal. The only thing missing is >sufficient robotic technology, but that is coming fast. It seems to me a >national mission with much more return for the dollar, to the space >program, military, and the economy, than manned missions to the moon and >Mars would be a mission on the order of the 60's space program to develop >robotics and nano-technology. > >Regards, > >Horace Heffner - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - At 9:13 PM 3/20/4, Horace Heffner wrote: >It has been speculated at various times that a cloud or swarm of asteroids >and/or comets exists which tends to all return at once. Such a swarm could >be created by various means. One is that a heavy but fairly dark object, a >dark or small star might periodically traverse or might have at some time >traversed our neighborhood and disrupted the Ort cloud, sending numerous >bodies sunward at the same time. Another hypothesis is that a planet >exploded. In particular, the planet that exploded, or disintegrated due to >a major impact, might have existed between Mars and Jupiter, where the >asteroid belt now lies. In that case debris might be all over the solar >system. However, the more extremely energetic fragments would end up >having orbits with large eccentricities, and long orbital periods. None of >this is new. The swarm has been referred to as the Nemesis Swarm, or >Nemesis Cloud. > >A Nemesis Swarm might explain some extinctions for which no major impact >area has been found. That is because the extinction might have been caused >by many smaller impacts of which there is no obvious geologic record. If >the cloud consists of many small comets, it might even explain Noah's flood >of 40 days and 40 nights, due to the rain of water which would result from >a cloud of small comets burning up in the atmosphere. [Really not in >Kansas any more with that speculation!] > >Of much more interest is the possibility that meteor impacts may play a >role in solar activity, and even sunspots. The motion of the plasma of the >sun is governed by complex differential equations, in a manner somewhat >like terrestrial weather, yet that motion is far more complicated than the >weather due to the system not being merely mechanical, but also >electromagnetic, as well as far more energetic. Therefore asteroid or >comet impact on the sun is a prime candidate to cause the Butterfly Effect, >the effect where a very small perturbation can result in large feedback >cycles that produce large events. The effect is so named because it is >said the flap of a butterfly's wing can be the ultimate cause of a >hurricane. > >It may be possible that a swarm of nearly simultaneous impact events on the >sun, even though not directly upon the earth, could affect the weather for >long periods, and even initiate or change the sunspot cycle frequency. >Such a solar event would produce limited geological evidence of its >existence, and even less of its cause, yet could in fact cause a major >extinction. > >Regards, > >Horace Heffner - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - At 10:39 PM 3/28/4, Horace Heffner wrote: >At 10:16 PM 3/28/4, Grimer wrote: > >>I presume this article would give it - >>if anyone has access to the complete article. >> >>http://adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/nph-bib_query?1985Natur.317..338S >> >>Abstract >>A new study is presented of the observational >>evidence pertaining to the theory which attributes >>the episodic component of the earth's impact >>cratering record over the past 600 Myr to >>gravitational encounters between the solar system >>and interstellar clouds that cause comets to fall >>into the solar system and impact the earth. >>Contrary to a claim by Thaddeus and Chanan (1985), >>the vertical scale height of the clouds seems to >>be sufficently small and the sun's vertical >>trajectory sufficiently large for the modulating >>effect of the sun's galactovertical motion to be >>detectable in the terrestrial record of impact >>cratering with at least a 50 percent a priori >>probability. > > >Say, since the earth has a 200 My galactic obrital period, it should cross >the galactic plane in opposite directions once every 50 years, once every >100 My in the same direction. The above premise works a priori with the >commonly accepted major extinctions, on average, so I have to wonder if >this is why they made the prediction. Kind of a self-fulfilling prophesy. >The major extinctions occurred about 6 times in the last 600 million years, >so this is right in average terms. > >Cambrian 570 -500 70 * >Ordovician 500-430 70 * >Silurian 430-395 35 >Devonian 395-345 50 * >Carboniferous 345-280 65 >Permian 280-225 55 * >Triassic 225-195 30 * >Jurassic 195-136 56 >Cretaceous 136-65 79 * >Tertiary 65-present 65 > >* general agreement on extiction > >Tere are essentially 5 events in each of the last two 300 million year >periods (600-300, 300-present). > >If we take only the periods in which it is generally agreed that major >extinction events occurred we get the following pattern: > >Cambrian 570 70 * >Ordovician 500 105 * >Devonian 395 115 * >Permian 280 55 * >Triassic 225 86 * >Cretaceous 136 144* > >In this perspective there are 3 events in each of the last 300 million year >periods, or on average one event every 100 million years. > >The main problem with this theory is the lack of extinctions in the >Pre-Cambian period. That fact leads me to believe a one time perterbation >about 600 million years ago must have started the process. It may be >possible we got gravitationally entangled with a partner Nemesis rock or >cloud that orbits at the same galactic radius but always occupies >approximately the opposing galactic latitude. > >Regards, > >Horace Heffner - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - At 10:57 AM 3/29/4, Horace Heffner wrote: >>I have computed approximately how long it would take the full power of the >>sun to vaporize Planet Earth. I would appreciate if someone would check my >>arithmetic. Various Web sources estimate one to three days. I came up with >>28 hours. Here are the numbers: >> >>Sun's energy: 3.8E26 watts (actually sun's power = 3.87E26 W) >>Mass of Earth: 6E27 grams Fe (assume it is all Fe) >> >>Fe: >>1535 deg C melting point >>2750 deg C boiling point >>13.8 KJ/mol heat of fusion = 247.3 j/g >>349 KJ/mol heat of vaporization = 6232 j/g >>specific heat 0.44 J/g >> >>http://www.webelements.com/webelements/elements/text/Fe/heat.html >> >>1 mol Fe = 56 g >>Assume average starting temperature of the earth 30 deg C. >> >>6500 J/g to vaporize 1 g Fe 6479 j/g >>3.9E31 joules to vaporize earth >> >>102,630 seconds of sun's output = 28.5 hours >> >>This is for the entire output of the sun. I suppose if the Earth stopped >>orbiting and fell into the sun it would only absorb a fraction of the >>output and it would take longer than this to vaporize. That surprises me. >> >>The point is to back up my assertion that energy is the most abundant >>resource in the solar system. Water is the most abundant substance on >>earth. It is ironic that mankind has pretty much stopped fighting wars over >>resources, but the two things we still fight to kill for are energy and >>water. It is a measure of how stupid our governments are. >> >>- Jed > > >The above numbers all look roughly correct to me. The power density of the >sun is amazingly low. > >I should note that if the earth fell into the sun it should vaporize fairly >fast due to its kinetic energy and high internal solar density. Using >1.979E30 kg for mass of sun and 860,000 mi for diameter, or 6.92E8 meters, >I get an escape velocity = sqrt (2Gm/r) = 6.18E5 m/s for the sun. That >gives energy/gram = 0.5*(1 gm)*(v^2)/(1 g) = 1.9E8 J/g, or 190 megajoules >per gram, or about 29000 times the heat required to vaporize the iron. >That's a total collision energy of (1.9E8 J/g)(6E27 g) = 1.14E36 J. The >sun's output is only 3.8E26 J/s. The collision energy is thus 2.9 billion >seconds, or about 91 years of solar heat output. If that kind of energy >were radiated even over the period of a year, due to some earth sized body >hitting the sun, the earth would be a very crispy critter. > >This shows why I suggest that a Nemesis cloud need not produce earth >impacts to produce major extinctions. A sufficient tonnage of solar >impacts would be plenty good enough. They should be capable of generating >large solar flares and thus, if nothing else, momentarily greatly >increasing the solar radiating area. > >Hopefully my computations are correct. (You never know!) 8^) > >Regards, > >Horace Heffner - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - At 11:04 AM 3/29/4, Horace Heffner wrote: >At 11:07 AM 3/29/4, Jones Beene wrote: > >> >>They probably mention that SciFi story (maybe of Arthur Clarke) about >>using thousands of special robots from earth to convert the iron in a >>planet like Mercury into an extremely large thin mirror - and that may be >>doable - but upshifting and cohering that energy into an x-ray laser is >>beyond anything that I can imagine. > >Computations of this kind are based on the exponential growth rates of >economies. If an economy grows at a sustained (compounded) rate, then a >task of any size is eventually, and even amazingly quickly, possible. Once >robots are in the picture (in an economy) the sky is not even the limit. >Tasks like consuming planets to build a device, say a spherical energy >collector and habitable surface around a star, are soon no longer out of >the question. > >Regards, > >Horace Heffner - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - At 6:29 AM 3/30/4, Horace Heffner wrote: >At 2:20 AM 3/30/4, thomas malloy wrote: [snip] >>This discussion reminds me of one that Hugh Hewitt was having monday >>evening with a physicist who had called the show. Hewitt questioned >>the caller about the maximium rate of speed that an astriod could >>have, he said 25,000 mph. The question had to do with John Kerey's >>descent, and which was falling faster, a lead slug or an astroid > > >The max is actually a LOT faster than 25,000 mph, which is rooughly earth's >escape velocity. A comet at our radius from the sun could be carrying >close to escape velocity from the sun at our radius, Ve = sqr(2*G*m/r) = >sqr(2*G*(1.979E30 kg)/(93E6 mi)) = 42 km/s. If it comes in on a retrograde >orbit just right we add the earth's solar orbit velocity, 2*Pi*(93E6 Mi)/yr >= 29.8 km/s, plus earth's escape velocity or about 11.18 km/s, for a total >of 82.3 km/s, or 184,000 mph. A body coming in from outside the solar >system would have no such limit to its speed. > >Regards, > >Horace Heffner Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 6 12:49:24 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j16KmuBo010661; Sun, 6 Feb 2005 12:49:02 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j16KmlNm010489; Sun, 6 Feb 2005 12:48:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 12:48:47 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000201c50c8d$14b53870$0500a8c0 nixlaptop> From: "Nick Palmer" To: References: <20050205145721.98363.qmail web51705.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: A last resort attack on global warming Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 17:25:47 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57546 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry, look at this bit below from the article. Where was the earthquake that caused the recent tsunami centered? - off Aceh province in Indonesia which is a breakaway area of fundamentalist Islamists... I hope the seismic record confirms that it was a natural earthquake... <> From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 6 13:49:16 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j16Ln6Bo013370; Sun, 6 Feb 2005 13:49:06 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j16Ln2Tq013343; Sun, 6 Feb 2005 13:49:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 13:49:02 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=KMS1lfIMTddCxCtvdacMkVx4qEBylRqyN2BSr5DLm48p/ISdXm7eC6iAfp0iL8D4VHEhYZFBjJD22CRcu2LodeP2mLB/ZwIhV5PY7oqszgaG8AEzN/ObQGSXJNlG3jKZOCqBpRv7riaOUxcMYstRZ2hisBhwqduuacqiVQ6pR7I= ; Message-ID: <20050206214850.19613.qmail web51704.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 13:48:49 -0800 (PST) From: Terry Blanton Subject: Re: A last resort attack on global warming To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <000201c50c8d$14b53870$0500a8c0 nixlaptop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57547 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- Nick Palmer wrote: > ... I hope the seismic > record confirms that it was a natural earthquake... A nuclear detonation has a very specific seismic signature. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free! http://my.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 6 14:08:56 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j16M8gBo022494; Sun, 6 Feb 2005 14:08:42 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j16M8c3s022439; Sun, 6 Feb 2005 14:08:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 14:08:38 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=h0/9HOWExn2ciYiaUICMydlHWVsrOBpsxGZMrxAfE8gmM7+cZuHrqAbB9R5AsmtE; Message-ID: <410-2200520621813390 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Self-Healing Electron Beam Penetration Wall Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 15:08:13 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940718571773599fb8afdc666cf0a68aed3350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.162.123 Resent-Message-ID: <70xFOB.A.deF.lVpBCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57548 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Given that some interesting things seem to occur in D2O with Deuteron beam bombardment according to this work: http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/KimYEpossibleeva.pdf High energy Electron Beam Bombardment of Lithium Hydride or Deuteride where a few milliamperes of electron beams at up to 150 Kev energy should shake things up as much as the 100 microampere beams of deuterons. It might even create Hydrinos in the LiH. A simple apparatus using 150 Kev AC and a Self-Healing "Window" in a stainless steel "can" of LiH or LiD immersed in a water vessel should serve the purpose for an experiment. Self rectification of the 60 Hz high voltage should be adequate, and will serve to allow the "window" (material?) to self heal. The Reaction: Proton + Li-7 ----> 2 He-4 + 17.6 Mev Might also occur. Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

 
Given that some interesting things seem to occur in D2O with Deuteron beam
bombardment according to this work:
 
 
High energy Electron Beam Bombardment of Lithium Hydride or Deuteride
where a few milliamperes of electron beams at up to 150 Kev energy should shake things up as
much as the 100 microampere beams of deuterons. It might even create Hydrinos in
the LiH.
 
A simple apparatus using 150 Kev AC and a Self-Healing "Window" in a stainless steel  "can" of
LiH or LiD immersed in a water vessel should serve the purpose for an experiment.
 
Self rectification of the 60 Hz high voltage should be adequate, and will serve to
allow the "window" (material?) to self heal.
 
The Reaction: Proton + Li-7 ---->  2 He-4 + 17.6 Mev   Might also occur.
 
Frederick
 

 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 6 14:13:17 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j16MCwBo024252; Sun, 6 Feb 2005 14:12:59 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j16MCuLX024230; Sun, 6 Feb 2005 14:12:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 14:12:56 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: "explorecraft" To: Subject: RE: A last resort attack on global warming Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 06:12:07 +0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 In-Reply-To: <000201c50c8d$14b53870$0500a8c0 nixlaptop> Importance: Normal X-PopBeforeSMTPSenders: libertarian explorecraft.com,pariah@explorecraft.com,techqc@explorecraft.com,teknik@explorecraft.com X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - husky.switchfusion.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - eskimo.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - explorecraft.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57549 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > -----Original Message----- > From: Nick Palmer [mailto:nickp wynterwood.co.uk] > Sent: 2005 February 06 Sun 00:26 > To: vortex-l eskimo.com > Subject: Re: A last resort attack on global warming > > < International Environment held investigative hearings on the military's > research into weather and climate modification. The committee's findings > included detailed plans for creating tidal waves through the > coordinated use > of nuclear weapons>> They backed off upon realizing this would trigger a methane clathrate release. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 6 17:12:30 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j171CJBo004645; Sun, 6 Feb 2005 17:12:19 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j171CCS6004582; Sun, 6 Feb 2005 17:12:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 17:12:12 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 17:12:10 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: Vortex Subject: Re: Role of God in government In-Reply-To: <420661EA.3040704 ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: References: <420661EA.3040704 ix.netcom.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <_bNk2B.A.iHB.rBsBCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57550 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Sun, 6 Feb 2005, Edmund Storms wrote: > the present government justify this approach and how this tendency to > lie squares with their understanding of the Christian religion. If a > person supports obvious lies, how can anything they say be trusted? I came to the conclusion long ago that lying is a major symptom of "evil." Here's a fairly good definition of Human Evil. It involves lying: The People of the Lie M. Scott Peck http://members.tripod.com/ejm/people.htm (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 6 18:12:24 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j172C821002435; Sun, 6 Feb 2005 18:12:12 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j172C6ON002421; Sun, 6 Feb 2005 18:12:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 18:12:06 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=YftEpMS2mSkREX07czSrgCGqEgneppZ8uuqjqmdAFfaCluWhqC+Q6l7tuSmtuTiK; Message-ID: <410-2200521711144830 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: High Energy Electron Bombardment of LiD & LiH, Was.. Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 19:11:44 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9408cb2e8395b74f324939ca1c5632370f8350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.162.223 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57551 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII The melting point of Lithium Hydride (LiH) is 680 C with a vapor pressure of ~ 25 Torr. Differential Pumping requirements will be minimal if the Self-Sealing "Window" on a 304 stainless steel capsule of Lithium Deuteride (LiD) or LiH doesn't function as expected using a Self-Healing Nickel "Window" where a 5 -10 milliampere, 75 to 200 Kev electron beam is employed to create an intense plasma cavity in the Deuteride-Hydride. This can be tried in any local Electron Beam Welding (EBW) Job Shop. Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

The melting point of Lithium Hydride (LiH) is 680 C  with a vapor
pressure of ~ 25 Torr.
 
Differential Pumping requirements will be minimal if the Self-Sealing "Window"
on a 304 stainless steel capsule of Lithium Deuteride (LiD) or LiH doesn't function as expected
using a Self-Healing Nickel "Window" where a 5 -10 milliampere, 75 to 200 Kev
electron beam is employed to create an intense plasma cavity in the Deuteride-Hydride.
 
This can be tried in any local Electron Beam Welding (EBW) Job Shop.
 
Frederick
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 6 18:35:10 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j172Yh21011541; Sun, 6 Feb 2005 18:34:43 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j172YZJC011439; Sun, 6 Feb 2005 18:34:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 18:34:35 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20050206182606.00b1fb90 mail.dlsi.net> X-Sender: steven%newenergytimes.com mail.dlsi.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2005 18:37:07 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: Role of God in government In-Reply-To: <420661EA.3040704 ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_1058465890==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: <3k0VuD.A.WyC.4OtBCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57552 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --=====================_1058465890==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Ed, I think this a follow-up thread to that of Bill Moyers discussing the relationship between environment, religion and our government. I'll add my $0.01 (devalued dollar, you know.) -This- high-tech worker has been significantly replaced by inexpensive labor in India, too. I think you'll like Hume's work: Filmmaker Chris Hume's Provocative Red State Road Trip http://www.truthout.org/multimedia.htm Steve --=====================_1058465890==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Ed,

I think this a follow-up thread to that of Bill Moyers discussing the relationship between environment, religion and our government.

I'll add my $0.01 (devalued dollar, you know.) 
-This- high-tech worker has been significantly replaced by inexpensive labor in India, too.


I think you'll like Hume's work:
Filmmaker Chris Hume's Provocative Red State Road Trip
http://www.truthout.org/multimedia.htm

Steve --=====================_1058465890==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 6 18:46:31 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j172kB21017300; Sun, 6 Feb 2005 18:46:15 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j172kAsN017287; Sun, 6 Feb 2005 18:46:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 18:46:10 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Role of God in government X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: ID = 7b84137320e539ae3bcf255acd0b8dbd Reply-To: michael.foster excite.com From: "Michael Foster" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: michael.foster excite.com X-Mailer: PHP Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050207024559.708873DF2 xprdmailfe6.nwk.excite.com> Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 21:45:59 -0500 (EST) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57553 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Kinda wandered off the subject here, haven't we? M. _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 6 20:29:57 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j174Te21003266; Sun, 6 Feb 2005 20:29:41 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j174TcIF003238; Sun, 6 Feb 2005 20:29:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 20:29:38 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <004901c50ccd$9c16b510$a6037841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Fw: Role of God in government Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 22:29:26 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0045_01C50C9B.50FBF180"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-99.2 required=4.0 tests=HTML_30_40,HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57554 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0045_01C50C9B.50FBF180 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0046_01C50C9B.50FBF180" ------=_NextPart_001_0046_01C50C9B.50FBF180 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankInteresting subject=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: RC Macaulay=20 To: Christian Fellowship=20 Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2005 10:21 PM Subject: Re: Role of God in government The reference article by Brooke Allen attached to Dr. Storms post quotes = Ben Franklin. " as for Jesus of Nazareth.. is a question I do not dogmatize = upon, having never studied it and think it needless to busy myself with = now," Franklin had the insight to admit he could not express an opinion = because he had NOT studied the words of Jesus Christ.=20 That is a most revealing statement. At least Franklin had the wisdom to = defer an opinion because he didn't know the subject. Today, our nation = has an entire cadre of learned educators that have no qualms about = expressing their opinions without knowing their subject. What do people find that is offensive in Jesus teaching? No, not what = people say that Jesus taught.. BUT.. what Jesus taught.. His words. I am a believer, I am a servant / follower of Jesus Christ. I believe in the separation of church and state. I believe in voluntary = prayer in schools and in government. I do not believe it should be mandated. I cannot change anyones mind about their beliefs. I can tell you what = wonderful things that God has done for me . You have the freedom in this = great nation to make up your own mind. After all, you are the one that = is betting your life on your decision. Dr. Storms quotes a poorly written article in the " Nation" , an AP/CBS = interest which hardly compares with Paul's writing in Romans 1st = chapter. Compare them for yourself. Paul's writing is an accurate = portrayal of what happens to people that lie to themselves. Perhaps the greatest hindrance to the advancement of science is the = habit of lying to oneself, not to others. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0046_01C50C9B.50FBF180 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Interesting subject
----- Original Message -----=20
From: RC = Macaulay
Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2005 10:21 PM
Subject: Re: Role of God in government

 
 
The reference article by Brooke Allen attached = to Dr.=20 Storms post quotes Ben Franklin.
 
      " as for Jesus = of=20 Nazareth.. is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied = it and=20 think it needless to busy myself with now,"
 
Franklin had the insight to admit he could not = express=20 an opinion because he had NOT studied the words of Jesus Christ. =
 
That is a most revealing statement. At least = Franklin=20 had the wisdom to defer an opinion because he didn't know the subject. = Today,=20 our nation has an entire cadre of learned educators that have no qualms = about=20 expressing their opinions without knowing their subject.
 
 What do people find that is offensive in = Jesus=20 teaching?   No, not what people say that Jesus taught.. BUT.. = what=20 Jesus taught.. His words.
 
I am a believer, I am a servant / = follower of Jesus=20 Christ.
I believe in the separation of church and = state. I=20 believe in voluntary prayer in schools and in government.
I do not believe it should be = mandated.
 
I cannot change anyones mind about their = beliefs. I can=20 tell you what wonderful things that God has done for me . You have = the=20 freedom in this great nation  to make up your own mind. After = all, you=20 are the one that is betting your life on your = decision.
 
Dr. Storms quotes a poorly written article in =  the=20 " Nation" , an AP/CBS interest which hardly compares with Paul's writing = in=20 Romans 1st chapter. Compare them for yourself.  Paul's writing is = an=20 accurate portrayal of what happens to people that lie to=20 themselves.
 
Perhaps the greatest hindrance to the = advancement of=20 science is the habit of lying to oneself, not to others.
 
Richard
 
 
 
 
 

 

------=_NextPart_001_0046_01C50C9B.50FBF180-- ------=_NextPart_000_0045_01C50C9B.50FBF180 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <004401c50ccd$9b88a5e0$a6037841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0045_01C50C9B.50FBF180-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 6 21:55:09 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j175so21017849; Sun, 6 Feb 2005 21:54:50 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j175sja6017793; Sun, 6 Feb 2005 21:54:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 21:54:45 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: FW: WHAT'S NEW Friday, February 04, 2005 Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2005 16:54:30 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <410-2200520621439630 ix.netcom.com> In-Reply-To: <410-2200520621439630 ix.netcom.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j175sc21017661 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57555 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Akira Kawasaki's message of Sat, 05 Feb 2005 18:14:39 -0800: Hi, [snip] > WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 04 Feb 05 Washington, DC > 3. PUBLIC ACCESS: AT NIH, ZERHOUNI ANNOUNCES A NEW ACCESS POLICY. > The public pays for research done on federal grants as well as the > cost of publishing it; they shouldn't have to pay again to see it. > Under a new policy that goes into effect on May 2 researchers on > NIH grants will be "asked" to submit their results to a public Web > site within one year after publication in a scientific journal. > There are advantages to having articles in one federal database. > However, most journal publishers, including APS Editor in Chief > Marty Blume, oppose the policy, fearing it will cut into their > subscription base. A leading proponent of free access, former NIH > Director Harold Varmus, only regretted that scientists were > "asked" to submit their data. He would have preferred "expected." [snip] I would make it a condition of getting the grant in the first place. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 6 23:24:40 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j177OK21004656; Sun, 6 Feb 2005 23:24:20 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j177OIZT004641; Sun, 6 Feb 2005 23:24:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 23:24:18 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 22:33:34 -0900 To: "vortex-l" From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: High Energy Electron Bombardment of LiD & LiH, Was.. Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57556 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 7:11 PM 2/6/5, Frederick Sparber wrote: >The melting point of Lithium Hydride (LiH) is 680 C with a vapor >pressure of ~ 25 Torr. > >Differential Pumping requirements will be minimal if the Self-Sealing "Window" >on a 304 stainless steel capsule of Lithium Deuteride (LiD) or LiH doesn't >function as expected >using a Self-Healing Nickel "Window" where a 5 -10 milliampere, 75 to 200 Kev >electron beam is employed to create an intense plasma cavity in the >Deuteride-Hydride. > >This can be tried in any local Electron Beam Welding (EBW) Job Shop. You can always try aluminum loaded with H or D, as Kamada et al did in the two experiments described below: The 1992 (Kamada) results showed 1.3 MeV or greater 4He (about 80 percent) and 0.4 MeV or greater P (about 20 percent) tracks using Al loaded with *either* H or D. The electron beam energy used was 200 and 400 keV. H3+ or D3+ ions were implanted with an energy of 90 keV into Al films. The implantation was done at a fluence of 10^17 (H+ or D+)/cm^2 using a Cockcroft Walton type accelerator. The Al foil used was would pass 200 keV electrons. It was bombarded in a HITACHI HU-500 with a beam current of 300 to 400 nA with a beam size of roughly 4x10^-5 cm^2, or (4-6)x1016 e/cm^2/s flux electron beam. The area the beam passedthrough was roughly 2x10^-3 cm^2. Total bombarding time was 40 m. The Al target was a 5 mm dia. disk 1 mm thick, but chemically thinned. The particle detectors were 10 mm x 15 mm x 1 mm CR-39 polymer plastic detectors supplied by Tokuyama Soda Co. Ltd. Great care was taken to avoid radon gas exposure. Detectors were set horizontally on either side of the beam 20 mm above the target and two were set vertically one above the other 20 mm to the side of the target but starting at the elevation of the target and going upward (beam source upward from target). The detectors were etched with 6N KOH at 70 deg. C for 2 h. at a rate of 2.7 um/h. Energies and species were determined by comparison of traces by optical microscope with traces of known origin. Traces on the backsides of the detectors were found to be at background level. Background was determined by runing the experiment with Al films not loaded with H or D. Four succesive repititions of the experiment at the 200 keV level were run to confirm the reproducibiliy of the experiment. There was a roughly 100 count above background in each detector, or 1340 total estimated per run for the H-H reaction. A slightly higher rate was indicated for the D-D reaction. This is a rate of 5x10-15 events per electron, or 2x10^14 electrons per event. However, the fusion events per hydrogen pair in the target is 2.8x10^12 events/H-H pair. The events per collision based on the stimulation energy was calculated to be 10-12 to 10-26 times less than the observed events. The 1996 results (Kamada, Kinoshita, Takahashi) involved similar proceedures but bombardment was at 175 keV using a TEM which simulataneously was used for taking images of the target. Transformed (melted) regions with linear dimensions of about 100 nm were observed that indicated heat evolvement of 160 MeV for each transformed region. The (energy evolved) / (beam energy) for each region is about 10^5. Implantation of H was done at 25 keV to a depth of about 100 nm. at a fluence of 5x10^17 H+/cm^2. Bubbles of "molecular coagulations" of H were formed at pressures of 7 GPa. At a depth of 60 nm H density was measured by ERD to be 2x10^22 atoms/cm^3. Immediately after implantation molecular density was 1x10^22 mol./cm^3, Molar volume was 60 cm^3/mol and pressure 54.5 MPa. The targets were 5 mm dia 0.1mm thick polished using a TENUPOLE chemical polishing machine to a thickness of 1 uM over an area of 1 mm and a small hole of 0.1 mm dia. in the central part. A HITACHI H-700 TEM was used. The beam was 50 nA on an area of about 1 um dia. giving flux of 4x10^19 e/(cm^2*s). The area is first examined with the beam not fully focused and the spots are not there. The beam is focused and the spots appear (photographed) within about 10 s. for D2, not at all with H2. The experiment was repeated over 30 times!. To reliably reproduce the result two conditions must be met: (1) The microstructure must be optimum, meaning there must be a minimum of tunnel structures connecting the implanted bubbles. (This is insured by limiting the fluence of the implanting beam to 5x10^17 H+/cm^2.) (2) The intensity of the electron beam must be roughly 1x10^19 electrons/(cm^2*s). Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 6 23:37:33 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j177bE21010210; Sun, 6 Feb 2005 23:37:14 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j177bCSD010190; Sun, 6 Feb 2005 23:37:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 23:37:12 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 22:46:27 -0900 To: fjsparber earthlink.net, "vortex-l" From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Spinning Supermagnet Levitation Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57557 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 5:00 AM 2/3/5, Frederick Sparber wrote: [snip] >These experiments (thanks to Colin Quinney) support that contention, but, >the force will >only be 0.075 lbs ( 34 grams) heavier or lighter at 7200 RPM. > >http://www.marmet.ca/louis/induction_faraday/kelly/KellyFa3.pdf > >This ties in nicely with the spinning "Energy/Current Loop" or String Theory. [snip] It may be of interst that some years ago I communicated with Kelly. I don't know if it had an effect or not. Following is one of those communications. Hello, First, let me say I very much enjoyed reading your article :"Faraday's Final Riddle; Does the Field Rotate with a Magnet?" on the website at Your paper substantiates and validates the flux line method of analysis of homopolar motors, which I have long advocated. It also concludes that the field moves with the magnet, which I have consistently and frequently argued on my favorite news list, vortex-L (see some examples below.) I should mention that, having examined some works on the relativity of moving fields, and done some (amateur) work in that arena myself (will send in separate email) I seriously question now that flux lines exist in any physical sense, or the magnetic potential or any aspect of the magnetic field for that matter, since they are likely merely calculable human constructs and the result of motion and/or acceleration of charge as viewed in a relativistic manner. Still, from Einstein's perspective that if a physical value is calculable then it exists, flux lines must exist. Certainly their utility exists! The utility of course is meaningless or nonexistent if the magnetic field line originating from a charge in motion or acceleration or from its spin does not remain in motion with the charge of origin (thus I agree a priori with your conclusion.) That the field must move with the charge of origin I personally take to be self-evident or even axiomatic. Experimental roof, of course, is another thing. Further, I have no difficulty accepting that magnetic field lines exist for purposes of analyzing homopolar motor/generators, or that classical EM approaches are sufficient for understanding the results, except for second order effects. I think your paper is extremely well written. I was most impressed with your testing the axially rotating coil, something I have not seen published before. However, all that said, and despite my agreement with your principle conclusion, I think the logic of the paper is seriously flawed. The conclusion to which I refer is the conclusion (p. 14 of the pdf version): "The new effect that appears is that the movement of the leads alters the result. Consequently the rotation of the magnet (and that alone) causes the change in the result which appears, and is evidenced when the leads are moved. Therefore THERE CAN BE NON DOUBT BUT THAT THE LINES MUST ROTATES WITH THE MAGNET UPON ITS NORTH-SOUTH AXIS." This I assume is the principle conclusion of the paper. The conclusion does not follow from the observation. The rotation of the magnet is not relevant. (See many justifications in copies of my posts below.) It is the fact that the relative geometry of the stator and armature differ in the two cases that is the the thing determined by his experiment, not that the magnetic field rotates. You would not at all have been surprised that a significant change in the geometry and size of the armature should create a change in voltage - even though the stator remained unchanged. You could change the geometry of the stator circuit and rotate it, leaving the armature static and achieve the same results. This rotating of the stator and fixing the armature reverses the role of the armature and stator in your dialog. The logic and conclusion of the paper no longer applies. It is merely the relative motion of armature and stator that creates the potential. The motion of the magnetic field can not be determined by homopolar tests like the ones applied in your paper. The reference frame of the observer makes no difference whatsoever. Your experiment, or any homopolar experiment of this nature, therefore can not prove that the magnetic field rotates. However, I think there is reason to believe that the geometry and size of the armature and stator IS important to the potential developed. Using classical flux linme analysis, only the diameter of the brush contact circle and its position in the magnetic field should matter to the potential generated. However, I have used a relativistic analysis to show that a small second order relativistic effect CAN change the results of the observed potential based on the size and geometry of the stator-armature pair, even though the brush contact path (a circle) remains fixed. This potential is on the order of 10^-2 V/m for your configuration and coil RPM, so a fairly large stator is required to obtain a significant voltage. I do not think this effect should occur in a measurable way for a rotating permanent magnet, however, only for the rotating coil. However, I have not given much thought to permanent magnets, as their fields are due to spin so the situation is much more complicated, so I could be very wrong about this.expectation. I'll send a copy of my relativistic analysis in a separate email. [snip] Thank you for considering these thoughts. Regards, Horace Heffner Old vortex-L posts follow: At 10:49 AM 10/24/96, Horace Heffner wrote: [snip] >I think the easiest way to visualize what is >happening is to consider single lines of magnetic flux. When you consider >that a single line of flux must be a closed loop, and the conductive >circuit a closed loop, then the above thoughts fall out as a consequence. >Two closed loops either are linked or not. Regardless of the shape of the >closed loops, when one loop rotates 360 degreees relative to the other >there will be an even number of loop "cuts". A loop cut is required to >generate a voltage, and the voltage is proportional to the cuts per second. >Provided the loops remain closed there will be exactly n cuts per relative >rotation generating a positive voltage and n cuts generating a negative >voltage. If both loops are always closed there is no way to generate a >direct current. Since the flux loop can not be borken, then the only way >to build a DC HPG is to use brushes to "break" the conductive loop. Some >part of the conductive loop must rotate at a different rate than the other >part to generate a non-zero balance of flux cuttings per rotation. [snip] At 5:15 PM 5/2/97, Horace Heffner wrote: [snip] >Homopolar generators are IMHO easiest to understand if you look at them >from the perspective of magnetic lines of flux. Each magnetic line of >flux is a continuous loop. If there is relative motion between a line of >flux and conductor, such that the conductor is cut by the flux line, or >vice versa, a potential is generated. The potential generated in a >conductor is proportional to the number of lines of flux cutting the >conductor per unit of time. To get a current flowing the conductor must >form at least one closed circuit. This, then means any generator involves >at some time a minimum of two closed interlocking loops, one being a flux >line, the other the conductive circuit. Topology demands that for a flux >loop to cut a conductive loop it is required that the intial condition >either be that the loops are interlocked or not, and after the cut, the >final condition is the opposite. When a line of flux interlocks with the >circuit by cutting it the voltage is generated in one direction, but to >become no longer interlocked a voltage must be generated in the opposite >direction. If flux multiple flux lines cut the circuit, the average >potential is determined by the balance of flux lines cutting per second. > >It is easiest consider a homopolar with uniform motion. There only three >reference frames, so there are only three relative angular motions. >Therefore, everything that happens must repeat in one of three cycles, or >sysnthesizing, we can come up with an overall master cycle for the device, >which repeats. Given that every state is repeated at least once per master >cycle, every ring interlock condition is repeated. For this reason it is >not possible to make a DC generator without brushes. The ring interlocks >must exactly equal the ring disengagements in each master cycle if no >brushes are involved. The balance is zero, so you have AC or no current at >all without brushes. > >The homopolar generator in its standard or classical form has only one >conductive loop. The magnetic field has many flux loops, which rotate >relative to the circuit. I think it is useful to understanding, especially >if the magnetic field is symmetric, to consider and understand a cycle for >a single line of flux. All angular motion involved with the homopolar >generator is relative, and there are only three reference frames for the >relative motion: the magnetic field, the armature (rotating wheel or >cylinder) and the stator (the rest of the circuit). Any of these may >rotate at any speed. However, if the stator rotates at the same speed as >the armature, no current will flow becaues the number of interlocks must >then exactly equal the disengagements for each rotation. No brushes are >involved. The best you can make is an AC generator or synchronous motor in >such a circumstance. It does not matter how the magnetic field rotates, as >long as there is relative motion between the stator and armature. There >really is not even a necessary difference between them! The armature and >field cutting it only need be symmetric to generate true DC and to prevent >eddy currents. The armature could simply be a rotating set of spokes or >even a single wire if pulsed DC is OK. The difference in relative motion >between the armature and stator in the homopolar generator is used to >achieve a non-zero balance of interlocks, and thus achieve DC. > >The key to understanding the homopolar, IMHO, is this: the lines of flux >which cut only the stator (or only the armature) do so 2n times each cycle, >n interlocks, and n disengagements (some of which may happen >simultaneously), thus have *no net DC effect* and do not even need be >considered except for AC effects. It is only the lines of flux which cut >the stator on interlock with the circuit, and cut the armature upon >disengagement (or vice versa) that create a net DC current due to the >relative motion of stator and armature. The relative motion creates a net >blanace of cuts in one direction. Note also that if the field rotates with >the aramture (or stator) then every rotation of a line of flux in the >armature (stator) creates an unbalanced cut in the stator (armature) once >per cycle. [snip] At 6:56 PM 5/2/97, Horace Heffner wrote: >[snip] >IMHO, it must be true >that the magnetic field rotates with the magnet. It is self evident if you >assume the lines of flux originate in electrons which are bound to atoms >within the magnet that the lines of flux must move with those atoms - >especially if the magnet is not a conductor. Except for an electron >located on the axis of the magnet's rotation, the rotational motion of the >field is the some total of many small *linear translations*. If a flux >line translates, it must also rotate, except for those in atoms on the >axis. However, if the adjacnet flux lines all rotate, then so will the >central axial flux lines, because they will be carried along by magnetic >pressure. At 8:28 AM 5/3/97, Horace Heffner wrote: [snip] >How many ways can I say it doesn't matter >how the magnet rotates? It only matters that the stator and armature have a >mutal rotation? As soon as you throw in the reference frame of the >observer there are infinitely more than the 3 classes. If you ignore the >magnet frame of reference, and the observer frame of reference, since >neither is important, then there are only two classes of homopolar >motors/generators. Those where the armature and stator have relative >motion, and those that don't. At 9:18 AM 5/4/97, Horace Heffner wrote: [snip] >It is not possible to understand or account for the operation of a >homopolar without taking into consideration the action of the magnetic >field on both parts of the circuit. The reference frame of the magnet is >unimportant. There can even be multiple magnets in multiple reference >frames and their effects will still add. It is even possible to adjust the >geometry of stator and aramture so that there is no magnet at all, the only >fields being from the stator and armature currents. You can also create >hybrid designs with mutliple mutually interacting elements, where one >armature is both the stator and magnet for the next armature, for example. >In fact, I posted such a hybrid design here some time ago. At 10:34 AM 5/4/97, Horace Heffner wrote: >Here is a cross section of a design for a hybrid homopolar as referred to >in an earlier post: > > > > ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- > | {o) | | (o) | | {o) | o) | > | | | | | | | | | | | | | | > |N S| |N S| |N S| |N S| |N S| |N S| |N S| > (+) | | | | | | | | | | | | ... | | (-) > | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | > --- | | | | | | | | | | | | | | --- > | (o) | | (o) | | (o) | | (o) | (o) | > --- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- > > > --- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- --- > | (o) | | (o) | | (o) | | (o) | (o) | > --- | | | | | | | | | | | | | | --- > | | | | | | | | | | | | | | > | | | | | | | | | | | | ... | | > |N S| |N S| |N S| |N S| |N S| |N S| |N S| > | | | | | | | | | | | | | | > | {o) | | (o) | | (o) | o) | > ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- > >The central shaft and bearings, which are electrically insulated from the >above, and may even not be conductive, are not shown. The configuration >(o) represents a ball bearing raceway. The ball bearings in the raceway >have the dual function of acting as brushes. Any conducitve brush/bearing >combination can be substituted. The rotating circular magnets with circular >central holes are neodymium or other conductive material, or might be >plated or metallic disk clad ceramic magnets. The important thing to the >design is that adjacent segments rotate relative to each other, which can >be achieved by having the central shaft attached to alternate segments and >having the others held steady in mounts, or by driving adajacent pairs in >opposite directions via friction wheel, belt, gear, or other mechanical >means, or any combination of means. It is also possible to move the inner >set of bearings to interface with the shaft, and to make the shaft >conductive in segments. There are many variations. The important thing to >note is that adjacent segments rotate relative to each other. > >To get the greatest amount of mutual rotation for the least amount of g >forces and bearing friction, the wheels should rotate in opposite >directions to each other. So, it becomes unclear as to which is the stator >and which the armature, and in fact the role can be reversed by changing >which rotate at what rate and at what direction. It is even possible, by >eliminating one rotating element, to have an odd number of stators, and >even number of armatures, or vice versa. > >The power takeoff for the unit above is at the final bearings/brushes. If >====== represents the above segments as a unit, and II represents a >magnetic flux conduit, then it is possible to place these units in series >to achieve any kind of generator dimensions, and to preserve or close the >magnetic circuit, for example: > > > > (+) -------- > | | - | series > II=======II | electrical > II II | connection > II=======II | between > | | + | units > (-) -------- > Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 7 05:17:27 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j17DH5E7022887; Mon, 7 Feb 2005 05:17:06 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j17DGd0U022438; Mon, 7 Feb 2005 05:16:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 05:16:39 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=V0wWCY2Igp0DHgIF0jy2Tw8ExPi+dbcf/v6c8C5yeNc4kgo9NRIYUFW16PObeU8S; Message-ID: <410-22005217121540920 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: High Energy Electron Bombardment of LiD & LiH, Was.. Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 06:15:41 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94082ad692282ea062c732652e79d5ba382350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.15 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57558 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Horace Heffner wrote: > >You can always try aluminum loaded with H or D, as Kamada et al did in the >two experiments described below: > Snip. No Horace. The Proton + Li-7 Reaction P + 3 Li-7 ----> 2 He-4 + 17.6 Mev as well as the D-D, D-Li & Possible Hydrino reactions are possible when you dump 750 joules per cubic millimeter ( 750 MegaJoules per cubic meter) or so, into a capsule of Lithium Hydride or Deuteride, creating plasma temperatures of around 1.5 Billion degrees K and local pressures approaching several hundred kilobar or more. If the Hydride/Deuteride can soak this up and rise to it's 680 C 25 melting temperature and 25 Torr pressure in a stainless steel capsule (I've run Lithium Heat Pipes at white heat in 304 stainless) an energy multiplication of 5 X input would be a high grade thermonuclear heat source. Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

Horace Heffner wrote:
>
>You can always try aluminum loaded with H or D, as Kamada et al did in the
>two experiments described below:
>
Snip.
 
No Horace.
 
The Proton + Li-7 Reaction P + 3 Li-7 ----> 2 He-4 + 17.6 Mev as well
as the D-D, D-Li & Possible Hydrino reactions are possible when you dump
750 joules per cubic millimeter ( 750 MegaJoules per cubic meter) or so, into a capsule
of Lithium Hydride or Deuteride, creating plasma temperatures of around 1.5 Billion degrees K
and local pressures approaching several hundred kilobar or more.
 
If the Hydride/Deuteride can soak this up and rise to it's 680 C 25 melting temperature and 25 Torr
pressure in a stainless steel capsule (I've run Lithium Heat Pipes at white heat in 304 stainless)
an energy multiplication of 5 X input would be a high grade thermonuclear heat source. 
 
Frederick
 

 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 7 06:12:46 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j17ECWE7017271; Mon, 7 Feb 2005 06:12:33 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j17ECVmi017266; Mon, 7 Feb 2005 06:12:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 06:12:31 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=TI276A3CQFmNMcQbpNLDxHWHLSNIFVHZ5V2LYy7dOyDkpaXfdAbiSLd7M0ru/sUO; Message-ID: <410-2200521713129390 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: High Energy Electron Bombardment of LiD & LiH, Was.. Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 07:12:09 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940d30dbe64c54fe7e7b7aa3135674c7599350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.120.102 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57559 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII One could always add some Boron-10 or Lithium Borohydride LiBH4 to the Lithium Hydride/Deuteride capsule, to get the high reaction cross-section neutron Boron-10 Reaction: n + B-10 ----> He-4 + Li-7 + ~ 3.2 Mev Boom or Bust? Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

One could always add some Boron-10 or Lithium Borohydride LiBH4 to the Lithium Hydride/Deuteride
capsule, to get the high reaction cross-section neutron Boron-10 Reaction:
 
n + B-10 ----> He-4 + Li-7 +  ~ 3.2 Mev

Boom or Bust?

Frederick

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 7 06:50:31 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j17EoJE7000423; Mon, 7 Feb 2005 06:50:19 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j17EoHMM000393; Mon, 7 Feb 2005 06:50:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 06:50:17 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <3k7897$nc0008 mxip12a.cluster1.charter.net> X-Ironport-AV: i="3.88,184,1102309200"; d="scan'208"; a="784334856:sNHT22868056" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.12 (webedge20-101-197-20030912) From: To: Subject: RE: Good energy flow flowchart from Lawrence Livermore Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 14:50:05 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57560 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: From: Jed Rothwell >Matt McConnell pointed this out to me: > >http://www.theenergyguy.com/USEnFlow00-quads.pdf > >- Jed Thanks for bringing this graphic to my attention, Jed. It continues to astonish me to realize the actual percentage of energy wasted just trying to get to the final destination. Makes me hope that affordable room temperature superconductivity might soon be around the corner. Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 7 06:55:58 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j17EtkE7005224; Mon, 7 Feb 2005 06:55:46 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j17EtgLh005194; Mon, 7 Feb 2005 06:55:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 06:55:42 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050207094632.02a5f240 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2005 09:55:33 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: A last resort attack on global warming In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_669750==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57561 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_669750==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >I am also troubled by the possibility that the oil barons may use it as an >excuse to keep on keeping on. That bothers me too, when applied to less drastic solutions that people are actually offering now, such as building dikes around cities. >There is also the chance that, due to the uncertainties involved, the >effect will be too great, and overshoot the mark, resulting in a new ice >age. Once such a cloud is in place, it would be next to impossible to get >rid of it again, and we may not find out that we have gone too far, until >it is too late. I do not think this would be a problem, because it would take a long time to do this, and only a little of the aluminum would be added per payload, so the effects would be closely monitored. I discussed a project similar to this in chapter 9 of "Cold Fusion and the Future." I proposed gigantic orbiting mylar parasols. These would certainly be benign and I think they would be more practical than they sound. I said it would only be practical to implement something like this with space elevators. This is true of the aluminum plan as well I think. It would drastically lower the cost, by a factor of 10 or 100. Two or three modest space elevators with perhaps 10 times of capacity each would probably be enough to implement the plan. I think this would inevitably lead to the construction of a larger set of space elevators with hundreds of tons of capacity. This, in turn, could allow orbiting space power systems that transmit power to Earth via microwaves. This would solve the energy crisis, and eliminate CO2 emissions. It would be far more expensive than cold fusion, and much less flexible, but it would solve the problem. For that matter, so would a practical hot fusion reactor. - Jed --=====================_669750==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

I am also troubled by the possibility that the oil barons may use it as an excuse to keep on keeping on.

That bothers me too, when applied to less drastic solutions that people are actually offering now, such as building dikes around cities.


There is also = the chance that, due to the uncertainties involved, the effect will be too great, and overshoot the mark, resulting in a new ice age. Once such a cloud is in place, it would be next to impossible to get rid of it again, and we may not find out that we have gone too far, until it is too late.

I do not think this would be a problem, because it would take a long time to do this, and only a little of the aluminum would be added per payload, so the effects would be closely monitored.

I discussed a project similar to this in chapter 9 of "Cold Fusion and the Future." I proposed gigantic orbiting mylar parasols. These would certainly be benign and I think they would be more practical than they sound. I said it would only be practical to implement something like this with space elevators. This is true of the aluminum plan as well I think. It would drastically lower the cost, by a factor of 10 or 100. Two or three modest space elevators with perhaps 10 times of capacity each would probably be enough to implement the plan. I think this would inevitably lead to the construction of a larger set of space elevators with hundreds of tons of capacity. This, in turn, could allow orbiting space power systems that transmit power to Earth via microwaves. This would solve the energy crisis, and eliminate CO2 emissions. It would be far more expensive than cold fusion, and much less flexible, but it would solve the problem. For that matter, so would a practical hot fusion reactor.

- Jed
--=====================_669750==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 7 07:10:59 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j17FAbE7014724; Mon, 7 Feb 2005 07:10:37 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j17FAYwb014663; Mon, 7 Feb 2005 07:10:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 07:10:34 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050207100120.02ac9970 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2005 10:10:27 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: A last resort attack on global warming In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050207094632.02a5f240 pop.mindspring.com> References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050207094632.02a5f240 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_1562953==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57562 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_1562953==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I wrote: "Two or three modest space elevators with perhaps 10 times of capacity each . . ." I meant 10 tons of payload capacity, per trip. I think a trip would take about a week with the primitive space elevators now being planned. The Space Shuttle capacity is 29 tons. The DC-3 payload was about 9 tons. One DC-3 full of equipment and supplies every few days would be enough to build a gigantic mylar shade, but it would not be enough to build a significant number of solar power generators. However, once a space elevator is in place, it can be used to bootstrap a larger space elevator. - Jed --=====================_1562953==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" I wrote:

"Two or three modest space elevators with perhaps 10 times of capacity each . . ."

I meant 10 tons of payload capacity, per trip. I think a trip would take about a week with the primitive space elevators now being planned. The Space Shuttle capacity is 29 tons. The DC-3 payload was about 9 tons. One DC-3 full of equipment and supplies every few days would be enough to build a gigantic mylar shade, but it would not be enough to build a significant number of solar power generators. However, once a space elevator is in place, it can be used to bootstrap a larger space elevator.

- Jed
 --=====================_1562953==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 7 07:27:02 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j17FQWE7028193; Mon, 7 Feb 2005 07:26:33 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j17FQL2q028002; Mon, 7 Feb 2005 07:26:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 07:26:21 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <420788F2.8070809 ix.netcom.com> Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2005 08:27:46 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Fw: Role of God in government References: <004901c50ccd$9c16b510$a6037841 xptower> In-Reply-To: <004901c50ccd$9c16b510$a6037841 xptower> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <-Ej13B.A.Q1G.ai4BCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57563 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: RC Macaulay wrote: > Interesting subject > ----- Original Message ----- > From: RC Macaulay > To: Christian Fellowship > Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2005 10:21 PM > Subject: Re: Role of God in government > > > > The reference article by Brooke Allen attached to Dr. Storms post quotes > Ben Franklin. > > " as for Jesus of Nazareth.. is a question I do not dogmatize > upon, having never studied it and think it needless to busy myself with > now," > > Franklin had the insight to admit he could not express an opinion > because he had NOT studied the words of Jesus Christ. > > That is a most revealing statement. At least Franklin had the wisdom to > defer an opinion because he didn't know the subject. Today, our nation > has an entire cadre of learned educators that have no qualms about > expressing their opinions without knowing their subject. > What do people find that is offensive in Jesus teaching? No, not what > people say that Jesus taught.. BUT.. what Jesus taught.. His words. I doubt that anyone rejects the words of Jesus. In any case, that is not the issue. The issue is the teachings of certain religious sects that have been created based on their understanding of the Bible. These sects are based on conclusions that are not universally accepted and are damaging to the general public when they are put into policy. > > > I am a believer, I am a servant / follower of Jesus Christ. > I believe in the separation of church and state. I believe in voluntary > prayer in schools and in government. > I do not believe it should be mandated. If everyone had this approach, the problems would not exist. > > I cannot change anyones mind about their beliefs. I can tell you what > wonderful things that God has done for me . You have the freedom in this > great nation to make up your own mind. After all, you are the one that > is betting your life on your decision. > > Dr. Storms quotes a poorly written article in the " Nation" , an AP/CBS > interest which hardly compares with Paul's writing in Romans 1st > chapter. Compare them for yourself. Paul's writing is an accurate > portrayal of what happens to people that lie to themselves. Poorly written or not, a reading of any good history book shows that the founding fathers did not believe that Christianity should be the basis for the US government. The point of the article is that the Bush administration is giving the impression that this is a Christian nation in which the other religions are tolerated. Therefore, he feels free to impose policies that is based on what certain Christians believe. For example, that homosexuality is a sin, that life begins at conception, and that the Rapture is a real event. All of these beliefs are unique to certain Christian sects and not to religion in general, yet the beliefs are being supported with enthusiasm by the administration. > > Perhaps the greatest hindrance to the advancement of science is the > habit of lying to oneself, not to others. Perhaps, but eventually people who lie to themselves also lie to others. Also, two kinds of lying people exist. Some people lie because they can not help it. They base their view of reality on their unique understanding that is unmodified by experience. On the other hand, people lie for personal gain. These people know they are lying and are only intent on gaining power and advantage over other people. Politicians are noted for being this kind of liars. For those of you who think this thread has gone too far from an accepted subject for Vortex, let me propose that the attitude of government plays a significant role in the creation and solving of problems. Science can not do everything, especially when the insights of science are ignored. For example, as a previous thread has argued, ignoring global warming may require creative solutions that may not work. Would it not be better to have a government that saw the danger and stepped in before such solutions are required. The question is, why does the US government and the Christians who support it fail to recognize obvious problems, the example above being only one of many? Why do they accept obvious lies and policies that are clearly harmful to the general population? What makes Christians so blind? Science in the US would have fewer problems to solve if such blindness did not exist. Also, to be practical, science would have more money to solve the unavoidable problems if the policies were not so wasteful. Why are conservatives and Christians not up in arms and on the street demanding that changes be made rather than ranting against people who suggest that the system is broken? Perhaps answers to these questions can not be given. In which case, I apologize for the bother. Regards. Ed Storms > > Richard > > > > > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 7 07:45:13 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j17FieE7008613; Mon, 7 Feb 2005 07:44:41 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j17FidVq008595; Mon, 7 Feb 2005 07:44:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 07:44:39 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=pF6rPBPJOAU2fOtfQj59Dr0lvaxDEmy4HhuRqQV2Y1dNtc+IR61vsddVacDh/IaaLo5qJx+bVqP4k5Fyg1JcP+L6TbABJNE2m2J9po8X2ZMygS6cbe+QFJPHS7oT6eO0s/ckzigHGVS8uP+ZCX67gZpEK2i3JlW42SZdS9QnMmc= Message-ID: Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 08:44:35 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Fw: Role of God in government In-Reply-To: <420788F2.8070809 ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <004901c50ccd$9c16b510$a6037841 xptower> <420788F2.8070809 ix.netcom.com> Resent-Message-ID: <63VvvB.A.LGC.mz4BCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57564 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: richard, no one, i repeat , NO ONE, finds anything offensive in the teachings of jesus. (well, maybe the neocons, which is a laugh, but hey) what people find offensive are those who demand that others live by their religion. the false persecution that so many "christians" (and as a christian, one who lives by the teachings of christ, i think its safe to say that many who call themselves that ARENT.) claim is pretty much a matter of , well, im not being allowed to persecute that group for not believing the way i do, and thats persecution against me. its bull. people are attacking trying to run the country by the rules of a few sub sects of christianity, not the actual sects. its like trying to cry "antisemitism" when people attack the policys of isreal. its not, so stop crying it. ed, youve gone exactly where i was about too. the neo-cons currently running our country dont believe in science. its a simple fact. but it gets worse than that. if youve read some of the old documents from PNAC, you'd know that the neo-con agenda is a rather simple one. they are trying to actively bring about armageddon and the rapture. for the real movers and shakers of the neo cons, global warming is a GOOD thing. thats the kind of dangerous thinking that needs to be quashed. people destroying the planet under the belief that it will get them to heaven sooner. On Mon, 07 Feb 2005 08:27:46 -0700, Edmund Storms wrote: > > > RC Macaulay wrote: > > > Interesting subject > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: RC Macaulay > > To: Christian Fellowship > > Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2005 10:21 PM > > Subject: Re: Role of God in government > > > > > > > > The reference article by Brooke Allen attached to Dr. Storms post quotes > > Ben Franklin. > > > > " as for Jesus of Nazareth.. is a question I do not dogmatize > > upon, having never studied it and think it needless to busy myself with > > now," > > > > Franklin had the insight to admit he could not express an opinion > > because he had NOT studied the words of Jesus Christ. > > > > That is a most revealing statement. At least Franklin had the wisdom to > > defer an opinion because he didn't know the subject. Today, our nation > > has an entire cadre of learned educators that have no qualms about > > expressing their opinions without knowing their subject. > > > What do people find that is offensive in Jesus teaching? No, not what > > people say that Jesus taught.. BUT.. what Jesus taught.. His words. > > I doubt that anyone rejects the words of Jesus. In any case, that is > not the issue. The issue is the teachings of certain religious sects > that have been created based on their understanding of the Bible. These > sects are based on conclusions that are not universally accepted and are > damaging to the general public when they are put into policy. > > > > > > I am a believer, I am a servant / follower of Jesus Christ. > > I believe in the separation of church and state. I believe in voluntary > > prayer in schools and in government. > > I do not believe it should be mandated. > > If everyone had this approach, the problems would not exist. > > > > I cannot change anyones mind about their beliefs. I can tell you what > > wonderful things that God has done for me . You have the freedom in this > > great nation to make up your own mind. After all, you are the one that > > is betting your life on your decision. > > > > Dr. Storms quotes a poorly written article in the " Nation" , an AP/CBS > > interest which hardly compares with Paul's writing in Romans 1st > > chapter. Compare them for yourself. Paul's writing is an accurate > > portrayal of what happens to people that lie to themselves. > > Poorly written or not, a reading of any good history book shows that the > founding fathers did not believe that Christianity should be the basis > for the US government. The point of the article is that the Bush > administration is giving the impression that this is a Christian nation > in which the other religions are tolerated. Therefore, he feels free to > impose policies that is based on what certain Christians believe. For > example, that homosexuality is a sin, that life begins at conception, > and that the Rapture is a real event. All of these beliefs are unique to > certain Christian sects and not to religion in general, yet the beliefs > are being supported with enthusiasm by the administration. > > > > Perhaps the greatest hindrance to the advancement of science is the > > habit of lying to oneself, not to others. > > Perhaps, but eventually people who lie to themselves also lie to others. > Also, two kinds of lying people exist. Some people lie because they can > not help it. They base their view of reality on their unique > understanding that is unmodified by experience. On the other hand, > people lie for personal gain. These people know they are lying and are > only intent on gaining power and advantage over other people. > Politicians are noted for being this kind of liars. > > For those of you who think this thread has gone too far from an accepted > subject for Vortex, let me propose that the attitude of government plays > a significant role in the creation and solving of problems. Science can > not do everything, especially when the insights of science are ignored. > For example, as a previous thread has argued, ignoring global warming > may require creative solutions that may not work. Would it not be > better to have a government that saw the danger and stepped in before > such solutions are required. The question is, why does the US government > and the Christians who support it fail to recognize obvious problems, > the example above being only one of many? Why do they accept obvious > lies and policies that are clearly harmful to the general population? > What makes Christians so blind? Science in the US would have fewer > problems to solve if such blindness did not exist. Also, to be > practical, science would have more money to solve the unavoidable > problems if the policies were not so wasteful. Why are conservatives and > Christians not up in arms and on the street demanding that changes be > made rather than ranting against people who suggest that the system is > broken? > > Perhaps answers to these questions can not be given. In which case, I > apologize for the bother. > > Regards. > Ed Storms > > > > Richard > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- Fairy tales are more than true: not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten. -G.K. Chesterton From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 7 08:03:04 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j17G2WE7019512; Mon, 7 Feb 2005 08:02:32 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j17G2PvW019441; Mon, 7 Feb 2005 08:02:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 08:02:25 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "John Steck" To: Subject: RE: A last resort attack on global warming Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 10:02:59 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57565 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I don't think that was the case at all. The strength of this list has always been the highly creative people that engage in free-for-all brainstorming. For brainstorming to truly work effectively, outright disregard of 'crazy' ideas should never be done. Innovation comes from unlikely places and unless you are willing to suspend belief in widely accepted principals, you will never see better solutions that sometimes completely contradict... like the world is flat, the sun orbits the earth, etc. Have faith in human nature to be too lazy or greedy to implement something so altruistic. Heated discussions on the implications to sovereign airspace for such a particle band in the UN would never end... 8^) -john -----Original Message----- From: Robin van Spaandonk [mailto:rvanspaa bigpond.net.au] >I was troubled by the speed with which people jumped on the band-wagon, IOW the apparent readiness of others to see it is a primary solution rather than a last resort. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 7 08:06:33 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j17G69E7022797; Mon, 7 Feb 2005 08:06:13 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j17G6604022777; Mon, 7 Feb 2005 08:06:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 08:06:06 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050207104728.02b192e8 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2005 11:05:43 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Fw: Role of God in government In-Reply-To: <420788F2.8070809 ix.netcom.com> References: <004901c50ccd$9c16b510$a6037841 xptower> <420788F2.8070809 ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_4881140==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: <_bWl4C.A.1jF.uH5BCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57566 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --=====================_4881140==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed This is just a passing phase or fad. All nations, including the US, periodically go to extremes with one belief or another. In the 1920s and again in the 1950s in the U.S. people became obsessed with communism and subversion, but after a while they came to their senses. At present a small number of people are on a religious binge. This happened in the late 19th century ("The Great Awakening") and again in the early 19th century. Today's obsessions include religion and obscenity on broadcast television. Complaints about obscenity have risen from 111 in the year 2000 to over 1 million last year. Most of these complaints are lodged by members of "family oriented" right-wing pressure groups. They are of no consequence, in my opinion. Actually, I am pleased to see extremist groups (on the left or right) waste their political momentum on trivial issues such as obscenity on television. The US also went to extremes with the prohibition and with today's "war on drugs." These had much more serious consequences than the obsession with television pornography. The Civil War was obviously the worst case of extremism in US history. As for the humanist origins of the Constitution and the federal government, throughout most of US history the federal government has been considerably more liberal than the population at large. There have been glaring exceptions such as the incarceration of Japanese-American citizens and the 1950s anti-Communist witch hunts. - Jed --=====================_4881140==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" This is just a passing phase or fad. All nations, including the US, periodically go to extremes with one belief or another. In the 1920s and again in the 1950s in the U.S. people became obsessed with communism and subversion, but after a while they came to their senses. At present a small number of people are on a religious binge. This happened in the late 19th century ("The Great Awakening") and again in the early 19th century. Today's obsessions include religion and obscenity on broadcast television. Complaints about obscenity have risen from 111 in the year 2000 to over 1 million last year. Most of these complaints are lodged by members of "family oriented" right-wing pressure groups. They are of no consequence, in my opinion. Actually, I am pleased to see extremist groups (on the left or right) waste their political momentum on trivial issues such as obscenity on television.

The US also went to extremes with the prohibition and with today's "war on drugs." These had much more serious consequences than the obsession with television pornography. The Civil War was obviously the worst case of extremism in US history.

As for the humanist origins of the Constitution and the federal government, throughout most of US history the federal government has been considerably more liberal than the population at large. There have been glaring exceptions such as the incarceration of Japanese-American citizens and the 1950s anti-Communist witch hunts.

- Jed
 --=====================_4881140==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 7 08:35:55 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j17GZZE7004501; Mon, 7 Feb 2005 08:35:36 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j17GZNWf004336; Mon, 7 Feb 2005 08:35:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 08:35:23 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "John Steck" To: Subject: RE: Role of God in government Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 10:35:59 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <420661EA.3040704 ix.netcom.com> Resent-Message-ID: <-QYHNB.A.jDB.Jj5BCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57567 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I suppose if you take everything at face value and fail to see everything is based on military strategy then I guess I understand your confusion. We are in Iraq because we have to get out of Saudi Arabia and we need a military launch pad in the region to maintain some semblance of stability in the production of fuel for the rest of the world. Having Saddam pull the short straw was a no brainer. We continue to buy oil because if we didn't the world economy would collapse and www3 would begin. It is nothing more than a wealth redistribution system. "Food for Oil" on a much grander scale if you will (and just as corrupt). Same for China. We are at war with China... not a hot or cold war, a green war. We can not win traditionally so we are taking the Ron Reagan approach. We are compromising their will as a nation by infecting them with Capitalism. As soon as we help them grow a middle class, we will have the necessary tools in place INSIDE the country to overthrow the existing COMMUNIST government. Same for social security. SS is nothing more than socialism with lipstick on. Government is big, dumb, and slow. It's only most dangerous when it implements something new because the true implications are rarely known. Once something is in place, the parasites that feed on it will NEVER let the core elements change. It becomes the evil we know. -john -----Original Message----- From: Edmund Storms [mailto:storms2 ix.netcom.com] Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2005 12:29 PM To: Vortex Subject: Role of God in government It is obvious that several contributors to Vortex hold very strong opinions about the Christian religion. It is also obvious that such opinions are shaping national policy in ways that are not beneficial to the general population. We went to war based on the lie that Iraq had WMD, the social security system is being changed based on several lies, we send our work overseas based on the lie that this is good for our economy, we now have the largest debt of any nation at any time in history based on a lie that this does not matter, and now the fundamental relationship between religion and government is being changed based on a lie. I'm interested to know how people who support the present government justify this approach and how this tendency to lie squares with their understanding of the Christian religion. If a person supports obvious lies, how can anything they say be trusted? Regards, Ed Storms Our Godless Constitution WASHINGTON, Feb. 6, 2005 Church And State Voters (Photo: AP / CBS) Our nation was founded not on Christian principles but on Enlightenment ones. God only entered the picture as a very minor player, and Jesus Christ was conspicuously absent. (The Nation) This column from The Nation was written by Brooke Allen. It is hard to believe that George Bush has ever read the works of George Orwell, but he seems, somehow, to have grasped a few Orwellian precepts. The lesson the President has learned best -- and certainly the one that has been the most useful to him -- is the axiom that if you repeat a lie often enough, people will believe it. One of his Administration's current favorites is the whopper about America having been founded on Christian principles. Our nation was founded not on Christian principles but on Enlightenment ones. God only entered the picture as a very minor player, and Jesus Christ was conspicuously absent. Our Constitution makes no mention whatever of God. The omission was too obvious to have been anything but deliberate, in spite of Alexander Hamilton's flippant responses when asked about it: According to one account, he said that the new nation was not in need of "foreign aid"; according to another, he simply said "we forgot." But as Hamilton's biographer Ron Chernow points out, Hamilton never forgot anything important. In the eighty-five essays that make up The Federalist, God is mentioned only twice (both times by Madison, who uses the word, as Gore Vidal has remarked, in the "only Heaven knows" sense). In the Declaration of Independence, He gets two brief nods: a reference to "the Laws of Nature and Nature's God," and the famous line about men being "endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights." More blatant official references to a deity date from long after the founding period: "In God We Trust" did not appear on our coinage until the Civil War, and "under God" was introduced into the Pledge of Allegiance during the McCarthy hysteria in 1954 [see Elisabeth Sifton, "The Battle Over the Pledge," April 5, 2004]. In 1797 our government concluded a "Treaty of Peace and Friendship between the United States of America and the Bey and Subjects of Tripoli, or Barbary," now known simply as the Treaty of Tripoli. Article 11 of the treaty contains these words: "As the Government of the United States... is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion -- as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity of Musselmen -- and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries." This document was endorsed by Secretary of State Timothy Pickering and President John Adams. It was then sent to the Senate for ratification; the vote was unanimous. It is worth pointing out that although this was the 339th time a recorded vote had been required by the Senate, it was only the third unanimous vote in the Senate's history. There is no record of debate or dissent. The text of the treaty was printed in full in the Philadelphia Gazette and in two New York papers, but there were no screams of outrage, as one might expect today. The Founding Fathers were not religious men, and they fought hard to erect, in Thomas Jefferson's words, "a wall of separation between church and state." John Adams opined that if they were not restrained by legal measures, Puritans -- the fundamentalists of their day -- would "whip and crop, and pillory and roast." The historical epoch had afforded these men ample opportunity to observe the corruption to which established priesthoods were liable, as well as "the impious presumption of legislators and rulers," as Jefferson wrote, "civil as well as ecclesiastical, who, being themselves but fallible and uninspired men, have assumed dominion over the faith of others, setting up their own opinions and modes of thinking as the only true and infallible, and as such endeavoring to impose them on others, hath established and maintained false religions over the greatest part of the world and through all time." If we define a Christian as a person who believes in the divinity of Jesus Christ, then it is safe to say that some of the key Founding Fathers were not Christians at all. Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson and Tom Paine were deists -- that is, they believed in one Supreme Being but rejected revelation and all the supernatural elements of the Christian Church; the word of the Creator, they believed, could best be read in Nature. John Adams was a professed liberal Unitarian, but he, too, in his private correspondence seems more deist than Christian. George Washington and James Madison also leaned toward deism, although neither took much interest in religious matters. Madison believed that "religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprize." He spoke of the "almost fifteen centuries" during which Christianity had been on trial: "What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity, in both, superstition, bigotry, and persecution." If Washington mentioned the Almighty in a public address, as he occasionally did, he was careful to refer to Him not as "God" but with some nondenominational moniker like "Great Author" or "Almighty Being." It is interesting to note that the Father of our Country spoke no words of a religious nature on his deathbed, although fully aware that he was dying, and did not ask for a man of God to be present; his last act was to take his own pulse, the consummate gesture of a creature of the age of scientific rationalism. Tom Paine, a polemicist rather than a politician, could afford to be perfectly honest about his religious beliefs, which were baldly deist in the tradition of Voltaire: "I believe in one God, and no more; and I hope for happiness beyond this life.... I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church." This is how he opened The Age of Reason, his virulent attack on Christianity. In it he railed against the "obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness" of the Old Testament, "a history of wickedness, that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind." The New Testament is less brutalizing but more absurd, the story of Christ's divine genesis a "fable, which for absurdity and extravagance is not exceeded by any thing that is to be found in the mythology of the ancients." He held the idea of the Resurrection in especial ridicule: Indeed, "the wretched contrivance with which this latter part is told, exceeds every thing that went before it." Paine was careful to contrast the tortuous twists of theology with the pure clarity of deism. "The true deist has but one Deity; and his religion consists in contemplating the power, wisdom, and benignity of the Deity in his works, and in endeavoring to imitate him in every thing moral, scientifical, and mechanical." Paine's rhetoric was so fervent that he was inevitably branded an atheist. Men like Franklin, Adams and Jefferson could not risk being tarred with that brush, and in fact Jefferson got into a good deal of trouble for continuing his friendship with Paine and entertaining him at Monticello. These statesmen had to be far more circumspect than the turbulent Paine, yet if we examine their beliefs it is all but impossible to see just how theirs differed from his. Franklin was the oldest of the Founding Fathers. He was also the most worldly and sophisticated, and was well aware of the Machiavellian principle that if one aspires to influence the masses, one must at least profess religious sentiments. By his own definition he was a deist, although one French acquaintance claimed that "our free-thinkers have adroitly sounded him on his religion, and they maintain that they have discovered he is one of their own, that is that he has none at all." If he did have a religion, it was strictly utilitarian: As his biographer Gordon Wood has said, "He praised religion for whatever moral effects it had, but for little else." Divine revelation, Franklin freely admitted, had "no weight with me," and the covenant of grace seemed "unintelligible" and "not beneficial." As for the pious hypocrites who have ever controlled nations, "A man compounded of law and gospel is able to cheat a whole country with his religion and then destroy them under color of law" -- a comment we should carefully consider at this turning point in the history of our Republic. Here is Franklin's considered summary of his own beliefs, in response to a query by Ezra Stiles, the president of Yale. He wrote it just six weeks before his death at the age of 84. "Here is my creed. I believe in one God, Creator of the universe. That he governs it by his providence. That he ought to be worshipped. That the most acceptable service we render to him is doing good to his other children. That the soul of Man is immortal, and will be treated with justice in another life respecting its conduct in this. These I take to be the fundamental points in all sound religion, and I regard them as you do in whatever sect I meet with them. As for Jesus of Nazareth, my opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think his system of morals and his religion, as he left them to us, the best the world ever saw or is likely to see; but I apprehend it has received various corrupting changes, and I have, with most of the present dissenters in England, some doubts as to his divinity; though it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with now, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the truth with less trouble. I see no harm, however, in its being believed, if that belief has the good consequence, as it probably has, of making his doctrines more respected and better observed, especially as I do not perceive that the Supreme takes it amiss, by distinguishing the unbelievers in his government of the world with any particular marks of his displeasure." Jefferson thoroughly agreed with Franklin on the corruptions the teachings of Jesus had undergone. "The metaphysical abstractions of Athanasius, and the maniacal ravings of Calvin, tinctured plentifully with the foggy dreams of Plato, have so loaded [Christianity] with absurdities and incomprehensibilities" that it was almost impossible to recapture "its native simplicity and purity." Like Paine, Jefferson felt that the miracles claimed by the New Testament put an intolerable strain on credulity. "The day will come," he predicted (wrongly, so far), "when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter." The Revelation of St. John he dismissed as "the ravings of a maniac." Jefferson edited his own version of the New Testament, "The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth," in which he carefully deleted all the miraculous passages from the works of the Evangelists. He intended it, he said, as "a document in proof that I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus." This was clearly a defense against his many enemies, who hoped to blacken his reputation by comparing him with the vile atheist Paine. His biographer Joseph Ellis is undoubtedly correct, though, in seeing disingenuousness here: "If [Jefferson] had been completely scrupulous, he would have described himself as a deist who admired the ethical teachings of Jesus as a man rather than as the son of God. (In modern-day parlance, he was a secular humanist.)" In short, not a Christian at all. The three accomplishments Jefferson was proudest of -- those that he requested be put on his tombstone -- were the founding of the University of Virginia and the authorship of the Declaration of Independence and the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom. The latter was a truly radical document that would eventually influence the separation of church and state in the U.S. Constitution; when it was passed by the Virginia legislature in 1786, Jefferson rejoiced that there was finally "freedom for the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and the Mohammeden, the Hindu and infidel of every denomination" -- note his respect, still unusual today, for the sensibilities of the "infidel." The University of Virginia was notable among early-American seats of higher education in that it had no religious affiliation whatever. Jefferson even banned the teaching of theology at the school. If we were to speak of Jefferson in modern political categories, we would have to admit that he was a pure libertarian, in religious as in other matters. His real commitment (or lack thereof) to the teachings of Jesus Christ is plain from a famous throwaway comment he made: "It does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg." This raised plenty of hackles when it got about, and Jefferson had to go to some pains to restore his reputation as a good Christian. But one can only conclude, with Ellis, that he was no Christian at all. John Adams, though no more religious than Jefferson, had inherited the fatalistic mindset of the Puritan culture in which he had grown up. He personally endorsed the Enlightenment commitment to Reason but did not share Jefferson's optimism about its future, writing to him, "I wish that Superstition in Religion exciting Superstition in Polliticks... may never blow up all your benevolent and phylanthropic Lucubrations," but that "the History of all Ages is against you." As an old man he observed, "Twenty times in the course of my late reading have I been upon the point of breaking out, 'This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it!'" Speaking ex cathedra, as a relic of the founding generation, he expressed his admiration for the Roman system whereby every man could worship whom, what and how he pleased. When his young listeners objected that this was paganism, Adams replied that it was indeed, and laughed. In their fascinating and eloquent valetudinarian correspondence, Adams and Jefferson had a great deal to say about religion. Pressed by Jefferson to define his personal creed, Adams replied that it was "contained in four short words, 'Be just and good.'" Jefferson replied, "The result of our fifty or sixty years of religious reading, in the four words, 'Be just and good,' is that in which all our inquiries must end; as the riddles of all priesthoods end in four more, 'ubi panis, ibi deus.' What all agree in, is probably right. What no two agree in, most probably wrong." This was a clear reference to Voltaire's Reflections on Religion. As Voltaire put it: "There are no sects in geometry. One does not speak of a Euclidean, an Archimedean. When the truth is evident, it is impossible for parties and factions to arise... Well, to what dogma do all minds agree? To the worship of a God, and to honesty. All the philosophers of the world who have had a religion have said in all ages: 'There is a God, and one must be just.' There, then, is the universal religion established in all ages and throughout mankind. The point in which they all agree is therefore true, and the systems through which they differ are therefore false." Of course all these men knew, as all modern presidential candidates know, that to admit to theological skepticism is political suicide. During Jefferson's presidency a friend observed him on his way to church, carrying a large prayer book. "You going to church, Mr. J," remarked the friend. "You do not believe a word in it." Jefferson didn't exactly deny the charge. "Sir," he replied, "no nation has ever yet existed or been governed without religion. Nor can be. The Christian religion is the best religion that has been given to man and I as chief Magistrate of this nation am bound to give it the sanction of my example. Good morning Sir." Like Jefferson, every recent President has understood the necessity of at least paying lip service to the piety of most American voters. All of our leaders, Democrat and Republican, have attended church, and have made very sure they are seen to do so. But there is a difference between offering this gesture of respect for majority beliefs and manipulating and pandering to the bigotry, prejudice and millennial fantasies of Christian extremists. Though for public consumption the Founding Fathers identified themselves as Christians, they were, at least by today's standards, remarkably honest about their misgivings when it came to theological doctrine, and religion in general came very low on the list of their concerns and priorities -- always excepting, that is, their determination to keep the new nation free from bondage to its rule. By Brooke Allen Reprinted with permission from the The Nation. -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.5 - Release Date: 03-Feb-05 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 7 08:42:47 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j17GgRE7009927; Mon, 7 Feb 2005 08:42:27 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j17GgNNV009876; Mon, 7 Feb 2005 08:42:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 08:42:23 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <003a01c50d33$e9f073f0$bb037841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: The joy of good discussion Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 10:41:45 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0036_01C50D01.9EDA4440" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-99.5 required=4.0 tests=HTML_40_50,HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57568 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0036_01C50D01.9EDA4440 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0037_01C50D01.9EDBCAE0" ------=_NextPart_001_0037_01C50D01.9EDBCAE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankNo question this group is special. Discussions may diverge into = religion or politics but the focus returns to science. It may be the = diverging events that make for the cyberworld health and longevity of = the group. No one can change anothers belief system but we all seem to " cut each = other slack" that permits one's views to be expressed. That is science = .. in itself ! Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0037_01C50D01.9EDBCAE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
No question this group is special. Discussions = may=20 diverge into religion or politics but the  focus returns to = science. It may=20 be the diverging events that make for the cyberworld health and = longevity of the=20 group.
 
No one can change anothers belief system but = we all seem=20 to " cut each other slack" that permits one's views to be expressed. = That is=20 science .. in itself !
 
Richard
 
 
------=_NextPart_001_0037_01C50D01.9EDBCAE0-- ------=_NextPart_000_0036_01C50D01.9EDA4440 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <003501c50d33$e9687f40$bb037841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0036_01C50D01.9EDA4440-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 7 09:36:50 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j17HaIE7016080; Mon, 7 Feb 2005 09:36:22 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j17HaG4h016059; Mon, 7 Feb 2005 09:36:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 09:36:16 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-UNTD-OriginStamp: GUNT6dKCgH8aoKLPKyRSHjVrtbPD0po11O8W5C5xcY97u0fNoJcTDg== X-Originating-IP: [65.179.17.141] Mime-Version: 1.0 From: "gesrebspar juno.com" Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 17:33:48 GMT To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The joy of good discussion X-Mailer: WebMail Version 2.0 Content-Type: text/plain Message-Id: <20050207.093413.27642.73044 webmail26.nyc.untd.com> X-ContentStamp: 2:1:2990288748 Resent-Message-ID: <7Qac3C.A.u6D.Pc6BCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57569 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Vortexer's- What does the preamble to the constituion say? I seem to have a memory that something about God is included.- GES From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 7 09:43:29 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j17HgvE7020416; Mon, 7 Feb 2005 09:42:57 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j17Hgg6M020279; Mon, 7 Feb 2005 09:42:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 09:42:42 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=qFSa/CwdaqSW500Rme1oh7vMDYXXp1USXjOqawVrMkLiTiO/OT/xItOwBJsuObKiUqEMIoFuSUreRWFBknOBVahJSLvJtOk4ltXhiNd2ucrwiAiPUsX85BoDJjXczXM2/1rRgzZ6NtBv2Fk1/krtX8uItC7fZI1CvxDZf4rTu8w= Message-ID: Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 10:42:26 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Role of God in government In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 References: <420661EA.3040704 ix.netcom.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j17HgUE7020174 Resent-Message-ID: <_tYsp.A.f8E.Qi6BCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57570 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: jed, yeah, and facism was just a fad in germany. it still did a hell of a lot of damage. john... wow. we DONT need a military launchpad in the area, and if we did, there are other countries in the area relatively friendly to us that would have been less work. say, turkey. the us's purchase of oil is a small amount, we would not bankrupt the world if our oil consumption were cut to even teh extreme of 10 percent current consumption. and you say socialism like its a bad thing. as long as we have corporate america exploiting the middle class here, we NEED a socialist government to counterbalance. as for china... the powers that be here dont want a middle class china. that would raise the price of our manufactured goods we import. On Mon, 7 Feb 2005 10:35:59 -0600, John Steck wrote: > I suppose if you take everything at face value and fail to see everything is > based on military strategy then I guess I understand your confusion. We are > in Iraq because we have to get out of Saudi Arabia and we need a military > launch pad in the region to maintain some semblance of stability in the > production of fuel for the rest of the world. Having Saddam pull the short > straw was a no brainer. We continue to buy oil because if we didn't the > world economy would collapse and www3 would begin. It is nothing more than > a wealth redistribution system. "Food for Oil" on a much grander scale if > you will (and just as corrupt). > > Same for China. We are at war with China... not a hot or cold war, a green > war. We can not win traditionally so we are taking the Ron Reagan approach. > We are compromising their will as a nation by infecting them with > Capitalism. As soon as we help them grow a middle class, we will have the > necessary tools in place INSIDE the country to overthrow the existing > COMMUNIST government. > > Same for social security. SS is nothing more than socialism with lipstick > on. Government is big, dumb, and slow. It's only most dangerous when it > implements something new because the true implications are rarely known. > Once something is in place, the parasites that feed on it will NEVER let the > core elements change. It becomes the evil we know. > > -john > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Edmund Storms [mailto:storms2 ix.netcom.com] > Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2005 12:29 PM > To: Vortex > Subject: Role of God in government > > It is obvious that several contributors to Vortex hold very strong > opinions about the Christian religion. It is also obvious that such > opinions are shaping national policy in ways that are not beneficial to > the general population. We went to war based on the lie that Iraq had > WMD, the social security system is being changed based on several lies, > we send our work overseas based on the lie that this is good for our > economy, we now have the largest debt of any nation at any time in > history based on a lie that this does not matter, and now the > fundamental relationship between religion and government is being > changed based on a lie. I'm interested to know how people who support > the present government justify this approach and how this tendency to > lie squares with their understanding of the Christian religion. If a > person supports obvious lies, how can anything they say be trusted? > > Regards, > Ed Storms > > Our Godless Constitution > > WASHINGTON, Feb. 6, 2005 > > Church And State Voters > > (Photo: AP / CBS) > > Our nation was founded not on Christian principles but on Enlightenment > ones. God only entered the picture as a very minor player, and Jesus > Christ was conspicuously absent. > > (The Nation) This column from The Nation was written by Brooke Allen. It > is hard to believe that George Bush has ever read the works of George > Orwell, but he seems, somehow, to have grasped a few Orwellian precepts. > The lesson the President has learned best -- and certainly the one that > has been the most useful to him -- is the axiom that if you repeat a lie > often enough, people will believe it. One of his Administration's > current favorites is the whopper about America having been founded on > Christian principles. Our nation was founded not on Christian principles > but on Enlightenment ones. God only entered the picture as a very minor > player, and Jesus Christ was conspicuously absent. > > Our Constitution makes no mention whatever of God. The omission was too > obvious to have been anything but deliberate, in spite of Alexander > Hamilton's flippant responses when asked about it: According to one > account, he said that the new nation was not in need of "foreign aid"; > according to another, he simply said "we forgot." But as Hamilton's > biographer Ron Chernow points out, Hamilton never forgot anything important. > > In the eighty-five essays that make up The Federalist, God is mentioned > only twice (both times by Madison, who uses the word, as Gore Vidal has > remarked, in the "only Heaven knows" sense). In the Declaration of > Independence, He gets two brief nods: a reference to "the Laws of Nature > and Nature's God," and the famous line about men being "endowed by their > Creator with certain inalienable rights." More blatant official > references to a deity date from long after the founding period: "In God > We Trust" did not appear on our coinage until the Civil War, and "under > God" was introduced into the Pledge of Allegiance during the McCarthy > hysteria in 1954 [see Elisabeth Sifton, "The Battle Over the Pledge," > April 5, 2004]. > > In 1797 our government concluded a "Treaty of Peace and Friendship > between the United States of America and the Bey and Subjects of > Tripoli, or Barbary," now known simply as the Treaty of Tripoli. Article > 11 of the treaty contains these words: > > "As the Government of the United States... is not in any sense founded > on the Christian religion -- as it has in itself no character of enmity > against the laws, religion, or tranquillity of Musselmen -- and as the > said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against > any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext > arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of > the harmony existing between the two countries." > > This document was endorsed by Secretary of State Timothy Pickering and > President John Adams. It was then sent to the Senate for ratification; > the vote was unanimous. It is worth pointing out that although this was > the 339th time a recorded vote had been required by the Senate, it was > only the third unanimous vote in the Senate's history. There is no > record of debate or dissent. The text of the treaty was printed in full > in the Philadelphia Gazette and in two New York papers, but there were > no screams of outrage, as one might expect today. > > The Founding Fathers were not religious men, and they fought hard to > erect, in Thomas Jefferson's words, "a wall of separation between church > and state." John Adams opined that if they were not restrained by legal > measures, Puritans -- the fundamentalists of their day -- would "whip > and crop, and pillory and roast." The historical epoch had afforded > these men ample opportunity to observe the corruption to which > established priesthoods were liable, as well as "the impious presumption > of legislators and rulers," as Jefferson wrote, "civil as well as > ecclesiastical, who, being themselves but fallible and uninspired men, > have assumed dominion over the faith of others, setting up their own > opinions and modes of thinking as the only true and infallible, and as > such endeavoring to impose them on others, hath established and > maintained false religions over the greatest part of the world and > through all time." > > If we define a Christian as a person who believes in the divinity of > Jesus Christ, then it is safe to say that some of the key Founding > Fathers were not Christians at all. Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson > and Tom Paine were deists -- that is, they believed in one Supreme Being > but rejected revelation and all the supernatural elements of the > Christian Church; the word of the Creator, they believed, could best be > read in Nature. John Adams was a professed liberal Unitarian, but he, > too, in his private correspondence seems more deist than Christian. > > George Washington and James Madison also leaned toward deism, although > neither took much interest in religious matters. Madison believed that > "religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for > every noble enterprize." He spoke of the "almost fifteen centuries" > during which Christianity had been on trial: "What have been its fruits? > More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance > and servility in the laity, in both, superstition, bigotry, and > persecution." If Washington mentioned the Almighty in a public address, > as he occasionally did, he was careful to refer to Him not as "God" but > with some nondenominational moniker like "Great Author" or "Almighty > Being." It is interesting to note that the Father of our Country spoke > no words of a religious nature on his deathbed, although fully aware > that he was dying, and did not ask for a man of God to be present; his > last act was to take his own pulse, the consummate gesture of a creature > of the age of scientific rationalism. > > Tom Paine, a polemicist rather than a politician, could afford to be > perfectly honest about his religious beliefs, which were baldly deist in > the tradition of Voltaire: "I believe in one God, and no more; and I > hope for happiness beyond this life.... I do not believe in the creed > professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek > church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any > church that I know of. My own mind is my own church." This is how he > opened The Age of Reason, his virulent attack on Christianity. In it he > railed against the "obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the > cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness" of the > Old Testament, "a history of wickedness, that has served to corrupt and > brutalize mankind." The New Testament is less brutalizing but more > absurd, the story of Christ's divine genesis a "fable, which for > absurdity and extravagance is not exceeded by any thing that is to be > found in the mythology of the ancients." He held the idea of the > Resurrection in especial ridicule: Indeed, "the wretched contrivance > with which this latter part is told, exceeds every thing that went > before it." Paine was careful to contrast the tortuous twists of > theology with the pure clarity of deism. "The true deist has but one > Deity; and his religion consists in contemplating the power, wisdom, and > benignity of the Deity in his works, and in endeavoring to imitate him > in every thing moral, scientifical, and mechanical." > > Paine's rhetoric was so fervent that he was inevitably branded an > atheist. Men like Franklin, Adams and Jefferson could not risk being > tarred with that brush, and in fact Jefferson got into a good deal of > trouble for continuing his friendship with Paine and entertaining him at > Monticello. These statesmen had to be far more circumspect than the > turbulent Paine, yet if we examine their beliefs it is all but > impossible to see just how theirs differed from his. > > Franklin was the oldest of the Founding Fathers. He was also the most > worldly and sophisticated, and was well aware of the Machiavellian > principle that if one aspires to influence the masses, one must at least > profess religious sentiments. By his own definition he was a deist, > although one French acquaintance claimed that "our free-thinkers have > adroitly sounded him on his religion, and they maintain that they have > discovered he is one of their own, that is that he has none at all." If > he did have a religion, it was strictly utilitarian: As his biographer > Gordon Wood has said, "He praised religion for whatever moral effects it > had, but for little else." Divine revelation, Franklin freely admitted, > had "no weight with me," and the covenant of grace seemed > "unintelligible" and "not beneficial." As for the pious hypocrites who > have ever controlled nations, "A man compounded of law and gospel is > able to cheat a whole country with his religion and then destroy them > under color of law" -- a comment we should carefully consider at this > turning point in the history of our Republic. > > Here is Franklin's considered summary of his own beliefs, in response to > a query by Ezra Stiles, the president of Yale. He wrote it just six > weeks before his death at the age of 84. > > "Here is my creed. I believe in one God, Creator of the universe. That > he governs it by his providence. That he ought to be worshipped. That > the most acceptable service we render to him is doing good to his other > children. That the soul of Man is immortal, and will be treated with > justice in another life respecting its conduct in this. These I take to > be the fundamental points in all sound religion, and I regard them as > you do in whatever sect I meet with them. > > As for Jesus of Nazareth, my opinion of whom you particularly desire, I > think his system of morals and his religion, as he left them to us, the > best the world ever saw or is likely to see; but I apprehend it has > received various corrupting changes, and I have, with most of the > present dissenters in England, some doubts as to his divinity; though it > is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and > think it needless to busy myself with now, when I expect soon an > opportunity of knowing the truth with less trouble. I see no harm, > however, in its being believed, if that belief has the good consequence, > as it probably has, of making his doctrines more respected and better > observed, especially as I do not perceive that the Supreme takes it > amiss, by distinguishing the unbelievers in his government of the world > with any particular marks of his displeasure." > > Jefferson thoroughly agreed with Franklin on the corruptions the > teachings of Jesus had undergone. "The metaphysical abstractions of > Athanasius, and the maniacal ravings of Calvin, tinctured plentifully > with the foggy dreams of Plato, have so loaded [Christianity] with > absurdities and incomprehensibilities" that it was almost impossible to > recapture "its native simplicity and purity." Like Paine, Jefferson felt > that the miracles claimed by the New Testament put an intolerable strain > on credulity. "The day will come," he predicted (wrongly, so far), "when > the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in > the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation > of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter." The Revelation of St. John he > dismissed as "the ravings of a maniac." > > Jefferson edited his own version of the New Testament, "The Life and > Morals of Jesus of Nazareth," in which he carefully deleted all the > miraculous passages from the works of the Evangelists. He intended it, > he said, as "a document in proof that I am a real Christian, that is to > say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus." This was clearly a defense > against his many enemies, who hoped to blacken his reputation by > comparing him with the vile atheist Paine. His biographer Joseph Ellis > is undoubtedly correct, though, in seeing disingenuousness here: "If > [Jefferson] had been completely scrupulous, he would have described > himself as a deist who admired the ethical teachings of Jesus as a man > rather than as the son of God. (In modern-day parlance, he was a secular > humanist.)" In short, not a Christian at all. > > The three accomplishments Jefferson was proudest of -- those that he > requested be put on his tombstone -- were the founding of the University > of Virginia and the authorship of the Declaration of Independence and > the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom. The latter was a truly > radical document that would eventually influence the separation of > church and state in the U.S. Constitution; when it was passed by the > Virginia legislature in 1786, Jefferson rejoiced that there was finally > "freedom for the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and the Mohammeden, > the Hindu and infidel of every denomination" -- note his respect, still > unusual today, for the sensibilities of the "infidel." The University of > Virginia was notable among early-American seats of higher education in > that it had no religious affiliation whatever. Jefferson even banned the > teaching of theology at the school. > > If we were to speak of Jefferson in modern political categories, we > would have to admit that he was a pure libertarian, in religious as in > other matters. His real commitment (or lack thereof) to the teachings of > Jesus Christ is plain from a famous throwaway comment he made: "It does > me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no god. It > neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg." This raised plenty of > hackles when it got about, and Jefferson had to go to some pains to > restore his reputation as a good Christian. But one can only conclude, > with Ellis, that he was no Christian at all. > > John Adams, though no more religious than Jefferson, had inherited the > fatalistic mindset of the Puritan culture in which he had grown up. He > personally endorsed the Enlightenment commitment to Reason but did not > share Jefferson's optimism about its future, writing to him, "I wish > that Superstition in Religion exciting Superstition in Polliticks... may > never blow up all your benevolent and phylanthropic Lucubrations," but > that "the History of all Ages is against you." As an old man he > observed, "Twenty times in the course of my late reading have I been > upon the point of breaking out, 'This would be the best of all possible > worlds, if there were no religion in it!'" Speaking ex cathedra, as a > relic of the founding generation, he expressed his admiration for the > Roman system whereby every man could worship whom, what and how he > pleased. When his young listeners objected that this was paganism, Adams > replied that it was indeed, and laughed. > > In their fascinating and eloquent valetudinarian correspondence, Adams > and Jefferson had a great deal to say about religion. Pressed by > Jefferson to define his personal creed, Adams replied that it was > "contained in four short words, 'Be just and good.'" Jefferson replied, > "The result of our fifty or sixty years of religious reading, in the > four words, 'Be just and good,' is that in which all our inquiries must > end; as the riddles of all priesthoods end in four more, 'ubi panis, ibi > deus.' What all agree in, is probably right. What no two agree in, most > probably wrong." > > This was a clear reference to Voltaire's Reflections on Religion. As > Voltaire put it: > > "There are no sects in geometry. One does not speak of a Euclidean, an > Archimedean. When the truth is evident, it is impossible for parties and > factions to arise... Well, to what dogma do all minds agree? To the > worship of a God, and to honesty. All the philosophers of the world who > have had a religion have said in all ages: 'There is a God, and one must > be just.' There, then, is the universal religion established in all ages > and throughout mankind. The point in which they all agree is therefore > true, and the systems through which they differ are therefore false." > > Of course all these men knew, as all modern presidential candidates > know, that to admit to theological skepticism is political suicide. > During Jefferson's presidency a friend observed him on his way to > church, carrying a large prayer book. "You going to church, Mr. J," > remarked the friend. "You do not believe a word in it." Jefferson didn't > exactly deny the charge. "Sir," he replied, "no nation has ever yet > existed or been governed without religion. Nor can be. The Christian > religion is the best religion that has been given to man and I as chief > Magistrate of this nation am bound to give it the sanction of my > example. Good morning Sir." > > Like Jefferson, every recent President has understood the necessity of > at least paying lip service to the piety of most American voters. All of > our leaders, Democrat and Republican, have attended church, and have > made very sure they are seen to do so. But there is a difference between > offering this gesture of respect for majority beliefs and manipulating > and pandering to the bigotry, prejudice and millennial fantasies of > Christian extremists. Though for public consumption the Founding Fathers > identified themselves as Christians, they were, at least by today's > standards, remarkably honest about their misgivings when it came to > theological doctrine, and religion in general came very low on the list > of their concerns and priorities -- always excepting, that is, their > determination to keep the new nation free from bondage to its rule. > > By Brooke Allen > Reprinted with permission from the The Nation. > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.5 - Release Date: 03-Feb-05 > > -- "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 7 09:57:14 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j17HunE7029360; Mon, 7 Feb 2005 09:56:54 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j17HukoN029312; Mon, 7 Feb 2005 09:56:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 09:56:46 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4207AC42.7060500 ix.netcom.com> Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2005 10:58:26 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The joy of good discussion References: <20050207.093413.27642.73044 webmail26.nyc.untd.com> In-Reply-To: <20050207.093413.27642.73044 webmail26.nyc.untd.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57571 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Acknowledging God does not mean that the Christian religion is being acknowledged or supported. The idea of a god is universal and a belief in a spiritual reality does not have anything to do with Christianity. It is possible for a government to acknowledge the existence of a god without actively supporting a particular understanding of the concept. The problem comes because certain Christians think their concepts are the only ones that matter or are real. They then insist that government policy support their concepts. Regards, Ed Storms gesrebspar juno.com wrote: > Vortexer's- What does the preamble to the constituion say? > I seem to have a memory that something about God > is included.- GES > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 7 10:32:07 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j17IVUE7016051; Mon, 7 Feb 2005 10:31:30 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j17IVOwE016009; Mon, 7 Feb 2005 10:31:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 10:31:24 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4207B460.3000906 ix.netcom.com> Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2005 11:33:04 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Role of God in government References: <5.2.0.9.2.20050206182606.00b1fb90 mail.dlsi.net> In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20050206182606.00b1fb90 mail.dlsi.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57572 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Thanks, Steve. Hume did a good job. Too bad it had no effect on the election. Ed Steven Krivit wrote: > Ed, > > I think this a follow-up thread to that of Bill Moyers discussing the > relationship between environment, religion and our government. > > I'll add my $0.01 (devalued dollar, you know.) > -This- high-tech worker has been significantly replaced by inexpensive > labor in India, too. > > > I think you'll like Hume's work: > Filmmaker Chris Hume's Provocative Red State Road Trip > > http://www.truthout.org/multimedia.htm > > Steve From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 7 10:43:37 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j17IhIE7021820; Mon, 7 Feb 2005 10:43:18 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j17IhFNT021799; Mon, 7 Feb 2005 10:43:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 10:43:15 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Mark S Bilk To: "Vortex List" Subject: Room-Temperature Superconductor Invented 25 Years Ago Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 10:39:01 -0800 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.28] Content-Type: text/plain MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <0502071043060J.00313 isis> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57573 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In-Reply-To: <3k7897$nc0008 mxip12a.cluster1.charter.net> Organization: http://www.cosmicpenguin.com/911 The October 9, 1980 issue of _Electronics_ magazine carried an article titled "Superconductivity at room temperature reported by Air Force researcher". Fred W. Valhdiek, a materials research engineer at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base in Dayton Ohio, subjected titanium boride to extremely high pressure, and created crystals that were superconducting at room temperature (after removal from the press). He was awarded U.S. Patent 4,349,636 for this in 1982. I talked with him by phone several times over the years since then. He denied that he was given a piece of superconducting material from the Roswell saucer (which was said to have been taken to Wright-Pat) and asked to duplicate it; he said he was just looking for improved high-temperature material for turbine blades. He said he clamped four TiB crystals together in a square and used a magnetic field to create a persistent current. Later he said that he was able to create (very stiff) wire out of the material, and made a ring of it that carried a persistent current. The persistent currents have lasted for months. The material remains superconducting in a magnetic field of 1,000,000 gauss. He's had a number of companies interested in it, but none of them has met his demand of $10,000,000 up front and a major share of the profits, without which he won't release any of the material, although he will allow people to bring their own equipment to his home and test his samples. The details of the manufacturing process are not revealed in the patent (which has expired by now). He said the U.S. government isn't interested in it. He said he talked with EPRI. The last time I spoke with him was June 2003. This ridiculous situation has been going on for twenty-five years! It would really be nice if someone with money could reach an agreement with this man before he shuffles off to the next world, taking the secret with him (if he hasn't already). His e-mail address is fvahl aol.com Mark On Mon, Feb 07, 2005 at 02:50:05PM +0000, orionworks charter.net wrote: >> >>http://www.theenergyguy.com/USEnFlow00-quads.pdf > >Thanks for bringing this graphic to my attention, Jed. >It continues to astonish me to realize the actual percentage of >energy wasted just trying to get to the final destination. > >Makes me hope that affordable room temperature superconductivity >might soon be around the corner. >Steven Vincent Johnson From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 7 11:20:23 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j17JJtE7008086; Mon, 7 Feb 2005 11:19:56 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j17JJje5008019; Mon, 7 Feb 2005 11:19:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 11:19:45 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20050207111916.00ace328 mail.dlsi.net> X-Sender: steven%newenergytimes.com mail.dlsi.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2005 11:22:27 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: Role of God in government In-Reply-To: <4207B460.3000906 ix.netcom.com> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20050206182606.00b1fb90 mail.dlsi.net> <5.2.0.9.2.20050206182606.00b1fb90 mail.dlsi.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57574 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Ed, It was filmed starting about 10 days ago. He is currently travelling from NY to Los Angeles. He films each day, edits on his laptop (while driving!) and then uploads the MPG via the Internet once he "docks" each night. Steve At 11:33 AM 2/7/2005 -0700, you wrote: >Thanks, Steve. Hume did a good job. Too bad it had no effect on the election. > >Ed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 7 11:27:07 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j17JQiE7013184; Mon, 7 Feb 2005 11:26:48 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j17JQJX8012958; Mon, 7 Feb 2005 11:26:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 11:26:19 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 10:35:45 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Room-Temperature Superconductor Invented 25 Years Ago Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57575 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:39 AM 2/7/5, Mark S Bilk wrote: >He's had a number of companies interested in it, but none of them >has met his demand of $10,000,000 up front and a major share of >the profits, without which he won't release any of the material, >although he will allow people to bring their own equipment to >his home and test his samples. The details of the manufacturing >process are not revealed in the patent (which has expired by now). A patent must provide enough information that one skilled in the art can obtain the utility of the patent. Failure to reveal such information invalidates the patent, and actually should prevent its granting in the first place if noticed by the examiner. This is now a moot point if the patent expired. In general, you just can't have it both ways. You can't hide some aspect of the method of construction or manufacture that is essential to fully obtaining the utility claimed, and still expect to get a patent. A patent is essentially a *full* disclosure made in the public interest, in return for some number of years of a monopoly while the license fees are maintained. There is a duty to describe the best implimentation(s) known at the time. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 7 11:34:39 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j17JYGE7017198; Mon, 7 Feb 2005 11:34:16 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j17JYDXl017171; Mon, 7 Feb 2005 11:34:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 11:34:13 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [64.174.37.158] X-Originating-Email: [mgoldes msn.com] X-Sender: mgoldes msn.com In-Reply-To: <0502071043060J.00313 isis> From: "Mark Goldes" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: Room-Temperature Superconductor Invented 25 Years Ago Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2005 11:32:16 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 07 Feb 2005 19:33:00.0980 (UTC) FILETIME=[D5C08740:01C50D4B] Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57576 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mark, I believe the material was real. A lab assitant who worked with him, and then worked for GE, told a USAF research director that he had done a 4 point probe and measured zero resistance. However, Vahldiek, who I have contacted several times, has so far been unwilling to work with anyone on reasonable terms. Incldently, he was a test pilot for Nazi V1 flying bombs. He would ride them up and then jump off and parachute down. More practical RTSC, including our Ultraconductors will emerge in the next few years in the form of highly flexible wire. Mark Goldes Magnetic Power Inc. Room Temperature Superconductors Inc. >From: Mark S Bilk >Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com >To: "Vortex List" >Subject: Room-Temperature Superconductor Invented 25 Years Ago >Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 10:39:01 -0800 > >In-Reply-To: <3k7897$nc0008 mxip12a.cluster1.charter.net> >Organization: http://www.cosmicpenguin.com/911 > >The October 9, 1980 issue of _Electronics_ magazine carried an >article titled "Superconductivity at room temperature reported >by Air Force researcher". Fred W. Valhdiek, a materials research >engineer at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base in Dayton Ohio, >subjected titanium boride to extremely high pressure, and created >crystals that were superconducting at room temperature (after >removal from the press). He was awarded U.S. Patent 4,349,636 >for this in 1982. > >I talked with him by phone several times over the years since then. >He denied that he was given a piece of superconducting material >from the Roswell saucer (which was said to have been taken to >Wright-Pat) and asked to duplicate it; he said he was just >looking for improved high-temperature material for turbine blades. > >He said he clamped four TiB crystals together in a square and >used a magnetic field to create a persistent current. > >Later he said that he was able to create (very stiff) wire out >of the material, and made a ring of it that carried a persistent >current. > >The persistent currents have lasted for months. The material >remains superconducting in a magnetic field of 1,000,000 gauss. > >He's had a number of companies interested in it, but none of them >has met his demand of $10,000,000 up front and a major share of >the profits, without which he won't release any of the material, >although he will allow people to bring their own equipment to >his home and test his samples. The details of the manufacturing >process are not revealed in the patent (which has expired by now). > >He said the U.S. government isn't interested in it. He said he >talked with EPRI. > >The last time I spoke with him was June 2003. > >This ridiculous situation has been going on for twenty-five years! > >It would really be nice if someone with money could reach an >agreement with this man before he shuffles off to the next world, >taking the secret with him (if he hasn't already). > >His e-mail address is fvahl aol.com > > Mark > >On Mon, Feb 07, 2005 at 02:50:05PM +0000, orionworks charter.net wrote: > >> > >>http://www.theenergyguy.com/USEnFlow00-quads.pdf > > > >Thanks for bringing this graphic to my attention, Jed. > >It continues to astonish me to realize the actual percentage of > >energy wasted just trying to get to the final destination. > > > >Makes me hope that affordable room temperature superconductivity > >might soon be around the corner. > >Steven Vincent Johnson > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 7 11:51:06 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j17JoIGj024230; Mon, 7 Feb 2005 11:50:43 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j17JoDJr024178; Mon, 7 Feb 2005 11:50:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 11:50:13 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 10:54:19 -0900 To: fjsparber earthlink.net, "vortex-l" From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: High Energy Electron Bombardment of LiD & LiH, Was.. Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57577 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 6:15 AM 2/7/5, Frederick Sparber wrote: >Horace Heffner wrote: >> >>You can always try aluminum loaded with H or D, as Kamada et al did in the >>two experiments described below: >> >Snip. > >No Horace. Sure, Fred. Anyone can try it. 8^) > >The Proton + Li-7 Reaction P + 3 Li-7 ----> 2 He-4 + 17.6 Mev as well >as the D-D, D-Li & Possible Hydrino reactions are possible when you dump >750 joules per cubic millimeter ( 750 MegaJoules per cubic meter) or so, >into a capsule >of Lithium Hydride or Deuteride, creating plasma temperatures of around >1.5 Billion degrees K >and local pressures approaching several hundred kilobar or more. Similar energy densities can be dumped into lattice confined hydrogen bubbles. I don't think in either case hydrinos would be significanly involved, as the involved medium would be plasma. Energetically effective fusion created using electron beams I think is or would be essentially electron catalysed fusion. This requires a minimum beam intensity of 1x10^19 electrons/(cm^2*s), but I think improves with increased intensity. Achieving a fast, dense, and high energy electron flux imposed on inertially confined hydrogen might best be done using x-rays, however. I've seen no research using an x-ray technique designed to achieve the minimum high energy electron flux established by Kamada et al. Maybe it has been done, I just haven't seen it. > >If the Hydride/Deuteride can soak this up and rise to it's 680 C 25 >melting temperature and 25 Torr >pressure in a stainless steel capsule (I've run Lithium Heat Pipes at >white heat in 304 stainless) >an energy multiplication of 5 X input would be a high grade thermonuclear >heat source. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 7 11:52:50 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j17JpOEo024706; Mon, 7 Feb 2005 11:51:57 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j17JpJk4024655; Mon, 7 Feb 2005 11:51:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 11:51:19 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20050207114235.032b9978 mail.dlsi.net> X-Sender: steven%newenergytimes.com mail.dlsi.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2005 11:48:55 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: RE: Room-Temperature Superconductor Invented 25 Years Ago In-Reply-To: References: <0502071043060J.00313 isis> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57578 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mark, >Incldently, he was a test pilot for Nazi V1 flying bombs. He would ride them up and then jump off and parachute down. That's pretty wild. How would such bombs be launched? I'm picturing a cartoon-like scenario of a man wrapping his arms around a missile... Vorts- Incidentally, Mark has some interesting things going on with room-temperature superconductors. http://ultraconductors.com/ Steve From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 7 12:53:18 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j17KqsMH023576; Mon, 7 Feb 2005 12:53:00 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j17Kqo0Y023534; Mon, 7 Feb 2005 12:52:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 12:52:50 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 10:59:23 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: RE: Room-Temperature Superconductor Invented 25 Years Ago Resent-Message-ID: <-ZO6l.A.mvF.hU9BCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57579 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:32 AM 2/7/5, Mark Goldes wrote: >Incldently, he was a test pilot for Nazi V1 flying bombs. He would ride >them up and then jump off and parachute down. Awesomely strange (love)! 8^) Somewhat reminds me of Fred Sparber's experience riding astride a runaway atomic cannon, though in Fred's case it wasn't planned! Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 7 13:38:34 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j17Lc6MH015090; Mon, 7 Feb 2005 13:38:06 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j17Lc4D6015065; Mon, 7 Feb 2005 13:38:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 13:38:04 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: A last resort attack on global warming Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2005 08:37:48 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <5mnf01tmj8pmf6ou8abdpph1vpf2cvq6a6 4ax.com> References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050207094632.02a5f240@pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050207094632.02a5f240 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j17LbtMH014959 Resent-Message-ID: <3VNYuB.A.PrD.6-9BCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57580 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jed Rothwell's message of Mon, 07 Feb 2005 09:55:33 -0500: Hi, [snip] >>There is also the chance that, due to the uncertainties involved, the >>effect will be too great, and overshoot the mark, resulting in a new ice >>age. Once such a cloud is in place, it would be next to impossible to get >>rid of it again, and we may not find out that we have gone too far, until >>it is too late. > >I do not think this would be a problem, because it would take a long time >to do this, and only a little of the aluminum would be added per payload, >so the effects would be closely monitored. Nevertheless, some components of the climate have very long characteristic times, so it could be many decades, or even hundreds of years before effects show up. By which time it would be too late to back out. One such long term item is the cycle time of the deep ocean currents. [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 7 14:09:39 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j17M9PMH031861; Mon, 7 Feb 2005 14:09:25 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j17M9M57031833; Mon, 7 Feb 2005 14:09:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 14:09:22 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20050207220910.24809.qmail web81108.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 14:09:10 -0800 (PST) From: Jones Beene Subject: VSG -- Naudin To: vortex-l MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57581 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Another interesting experiment from Naudin: http://jlnlabs.imars.com/vsg/index.htm According to the commentary "vacuum energy is tapped by the nucleus" by way of Boron forming and then transmutting back to Carbon. The evidence is said to be a strong pulse of 13 Mev Naudin finds increased radioactivity but is not using spectroscopy, so apparently Vallee is the source for the reaction signature being 13 Mev. This figure would be *critical* for properly analyzing the experiment. As an alternative explanation, on could suggest that 12 Ps are anihilating simultaneously - but coincidenally? No. How could this involve all 12 of the electrons from one carbon at the same time? However this same net energy of reaction would be expected if the 12 Ps reactions consisted not of electons per se but of the hypothesized compound triad lepton electronium (*e-) but it is hard to see how they would all end up in the same atom. More likely it is the 2 inner shell electrons from 6 atoms hexagonally bound. Carbon prefers this hexagonal bonding and one can suggest that the time scale is NOT coincidental because that the alignment of fields throws this reaction out of a time denominated dimension and into reciprocal space. At any rate it is one more in the growing list of carbon LENR energy anomalies. And it does - without much doubt show the influence of a magnetic field and this should once again address the issue of what alignment is best - crossed or aligned. Befor this, a crossed-field seemed to be the ticket... this experiment strongly suggests otherwise. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 7 14:49:33 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j17MnCMH019297; Mon, 7 Feb 2005 14:49:13 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j17Mn7uT019266; Mon, 7 Feb 2005 14:49:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 14:49:07 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: VSG -- Naudin Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 17:49:53 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <20050207220910.24809.qmail web81108.mail.yahoo.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57582 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hey Jones, Interesting experiment; I'm surprised that 33 gauss is sufficient to lower the arc impedance as much as what's shown. Yet it clearly does, as you can see from shortened decay time. What the current sense resistor energy dissipation has to do with the claimed effect is something only Jean can answer, I'm always puzzled by his approach to electrical measurement. He should try using a tungsten rod in replacement of the carbon rod, this would be a more meaningful control for testing the claim. K. -----Original Message----- From: Jones Beene [mailto:jonesb9 pacbell.net] Sent: Monday, February 07, 2005 5:09 PM To: vortex-l Subject: VSG -- Naudin Another interesting experiment from Naudin: http://jlnlabs.imars.com/vsg/index.htm According to the commentary "vacuum energy is tapped by the nucleus" by way of Boron forming and then transmutting back to Carbon. The evidence is said to be a strong pulse of 13 Mev Naudin finds increased radioactivity but is not using spectroscopy, so apparently Vallee is the source for the reaction signature being 13 Mev. This figure would be *critical* for properly analyzing the experiment. As an alternative explanation, on could suggest that 12 Ps are anihilating simultaneously - but coincidenally? No. How could this involve all 12 of the electrons from one carbon at the same time? However this same net energy of reaction would be expected if the 12 Ps reactions consisted not of electons per se but of the hypothesized compound triad lepton electronium (*e-) but it is hard to see how they would all end up in the same atom. More likely it is the 2 inner shell electrons from 6 atoms hexagonally bound. Carbon prefers this hexagonal bonding and one can suggest that the time scale is NOT coincidental because that the alignment of fields throws this reaction out of a time denominated dimension and into reciprocal space. At any rate it is one more in the growing list of carbon LENR energy anomalies. And it does - without much doubt show the influence of a magnetic field and this should once again address the issue of what alignment is best - crossed or aligned. Befor this, a crossed-field seemed to be the ticket... this experiment strongly suggests otherwise. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 7 15:53:48 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j17NrHMH016205; Mon, 7 Feb 2005 15:53:17 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j17NrDj6016175; Mon, 7 Feb 2005 15:53:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 15:53:13 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <410-22005217235155420 ix.netcom.com> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: aki ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.1.47.0 (Windows) From: "Akira Kawasaki" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: Room-Temperature Superconductor Invented 25 Years Ago Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 15:51:55 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: c4cc7f5f697e8746f66dc3a06d5924d8255a2aea2b812628d706668fcd2da5d4dfe6209a9096b523350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 216.249.71.17 Resent-Message-ID: <2RzUcC.A.r8D.o9_BCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57583 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Mark Goldes wrote in part: > > >Incldently, he was a test pilot for Nazi V1 flying bombs. He would ride > them up and then jump off and parachute down. > I do not believe this. I take this mention to be done in jest. In my fascination with rocketry and WWII history, I have never run across this item for the V1 flying bomb being partially piloted. At least there were no 'saddles' being part of the assembly. The V1 carried a 1,000 pound bomb versus 2,000 pounds for the V2. Its propulsion was by a simple, noisy pulse-jet engine. The current re-incarnation of the engine is the Dyna-Jet model airplane engine still in production here (USA). There were no guidance units on the bomb as we know it today. Probably a web search should pop up an image of the missile and the simple manner of its being lauched against England from Penumunde (incorrect spelling) across the Channel. -ak- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 7 16:22:19 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j180LuMH031615; Mon, 7 Feb 2005 16:22:00 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j180Lose031522; Mon, 7 Feb 2005 16:21:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 16:21:50 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20050208002130.2154.qmail web81106.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 16:21:30 -0800 (PST) From: Jones Beene Subject: RE: Room-Temperature Superconductor Invented 25 Years Ago To: aki ix.netcom.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <410-22005217235155420 ix.netcom.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57584 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- Akira Kawasaki wrote: > I do not believe this. I take this mention to be done in jest. In my fascination with rocketry and WWII history, I have never run across this item for the V1 flying bomb being partially piloted. Truth is stranger than fiction. It was called the Fleseler Fi 103 Reichenberg III. The Nazi's got pretty desperate. Here is a picture of the plane Mark refers to: http://www.fiddlersgreen.net/aircraft/WWII/v1/v1_info/vi_info.htm In the piloted series there were four versions. I suspect the survival rate was pretty low. But then again, one of father's best friends following WWII was a Kamikaze Pilot who surivived his only flight... Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 7 16:31:01 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j180UPMH002769; Mon, 7 Feb 2005 16:30:26 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j180UNDm002750; Mon, 7 Feb 2005 16:30:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 16:30:23 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050208002700.00686600 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2005 00:27:00 +0000 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: RE: Room-Temperature Superconductor Invented 25 Years Ago Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57585 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >From: Grimer >Subject: RE: Room-Temperature Superconductor Invented 25 Years Ago > >At 03:51 pm 07-02-05 -0800, you wrote: >> Mark Goldes wrote in part: >>> >>> >Incldently, he was a test pilot for Nazi V1 flying bombs. He would >>ride >>> them up and then jump off and parachute down. >>> >>I do not believe this. I take this mention to be done in jest. >>In my fascination with rocketry and WWII history, I have never run across >>this item for the V1 flying bomb being partially piloted. At least there >>were no 'saddles' being part of the assembly. >>The V1 carried a 1,000 pound bomb versus 2,000 pounds for the V2. Its >>propulsion was by a simple, noisy pulse-jet engine. The current >>re-incarnation of the engine is the Dyna-Jet model airplane engine still in >>production here (USA). >>There were no guidance units on the bomb as we know it today. >>Probably a web search should pop up an image of the missile and the simple >>manner of its being lauched against England from Penumunde (incorrect >>spelling) across the Channel. >> >>-ak- > > >As someone who as a child was in the firing line of "doodle bugs" I have >always taken an interest in their development. On British TV a film is >often shown of some intrepid woman test pilot who did in fact rid these >things, not side-saddle I hasn't to add, but in a primitive cockpit which >presumably took the place of the explosive charge. A lot of her predecessors >were killed but she managed to sort out the problem. I can't remember >whether she bailed out or not though. > >Oh, and they were launched up sloping ramps. > >Cheers > >Grimer > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 7 16:34:45 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j180YXMH005820; Mon, 7 Feb 2005 16:34:33 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j180YVV6005797; Mon, 7 Feb 2005 16:34:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 16:34:31 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Room-Temperature Superconductor Invented 25 Years Ago X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: ID = 909b8a8ff0cae19159d456a4b333f05c Reply-To: michael.foster excite.com From: "Michael Foster" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: michael.foster excite.com X-Mailer: PHP Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050208003420.829413DDE xprdmailfe12.nwk.excite.com> Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 19:34:20 -0500 (EST) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57586 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This whole thing sounds fishy. First of all, the patent was assigned to the U.S. government and never belonged to this fellow. Second, the patent expired long ago and is in the public domain. Also, the patent mentions *near* superconductivity. So why would he be demanding big bucks and be "difficult to work with" about something he doesn't and never did own? M. ==================================================== --- On Mon 02/07, Horace Heffner < hheffner mtaonline.net > wrote: From: Horace Heffner [mailto: hheffner mtaonline.net] To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 10:35:45 -0900 Subject: Re: Room-Temperature Superconductor Invented 25 Years Ago At 10:39 AM 2/7/5, Mark S Bilk wrote:

>He's had a number of companies interested in it, but none of them
>has met his demand of $10,000,000 up front and a major share of
>the profits, without which he won't release any of the material,
>although he will allow people to bring their own equipment to
>his home and test his samples. The details of the manufacturing
>process are not revealed in the patent (which has expired by now).

A patent must provide enough information that one skilled in the art can
obtain the utility of the patent. Failure to reveal such information
invalidates the patent, and actually should prevent its granting in the
first place if noticed by the examiner. This is now a moot point if the
patent expired. In general, you just can't have it both ways. You can't
hide some aspect of the method of construction or manufacture that is
essential to fully obtaining the utility claimed, and still expect to get a
patent. A patent is essentially a *full* disclosure made in the public
interest, in return for some number of years of a monopoly while the
license fees are maintained. There is a duty to describe the best
implimentation(s) known at the time.


Regards,

Horace Heffner


_______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 7 16:41:51 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j180feMH008963; Mon, 7 Feb 2005 16:41:40 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j180faxf008927; Mon, 7 Feb 2005 16:41:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 16:41:36 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050208003820.006852b4 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2005 00:38:20 +0000 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: RE: Room-Temperature Superconductor Invented 25 Years Ago Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57587 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2005 00:25:15 +0000 >To: aki ix.netcom.com >From: Grimer >Subject: RE: Room-Temperature Superconductor Invented 25 Years Ago > >At 03:51 pm 07-02-05 -0800, you wrote: >> Mark Goldes wrote in part: >>> >>> >Incldently, he was a test pilot for Nazi V1 flying bombs. He would >>ride >>> them up and then jump off and parachute down. >>> >>I do not believe this. I take this mention to be done in jest. >>In my fascination with rocketry and WWII history, I have never run across >>this item for the V1 flying bomb being partially piloted. At least there >>were no 'saddles' being part of the assembly. >>The V1 carried a 1,000 pound bomb versus 2,000 pounds for the V2. Its >>propulsion was by a simple, noisy pulse-jet engine. The current >>re-incarnation of the engine is the Dyna-Jet model airplane engine still in >>production here (USA). >>There were no guidance units on the bomb as we know it today. >>Probably a web search should pop up an image of the missile and the simple >>manner of its being lauched against England from Penumunde (incorrect >>spelling) across the Channel. >> >>-ak- > > >As someone who as a child was in the firing line of "doodle bugs" I have >always taken an interest in their development. On British TV a film is >often shown of some intrepid woman test pilot who did in fact rid these >things, not side-saddle I hasn't to add, but in a primitive cockpit which >presumably took the place of the explosive charge. A lot of her predecessors >were killed but she managed to sort out the problem. I can't remember >whether she bailed out or not though. > >Oh, and they were launched up sloping ramps. > >Cheers > >Grimer P.S. As you can see from below, the German test pilot was Hanna Reitsch. "The V-1 airframe endured more stress than it may have appeared to at first; the two primary sources were the catapult for takeoff and the pulsejet. The main forces dealt with bracing of the wings and connection with the engine. The wings received the greater part of their stress during the catapult liftoff, and some considerations for the forces imposed by the booster rocket used to push the flying bomb off the catapult ramp had been taken in the original design. The problem came when the V-1 left the ramp and started its own engine. At this point the frame would experience a sharp shock, which caused the mounting bolts in the wings. The source and solution only came after test pilot Hanna Reitsch, flew in a modified Fi-103[4] in early 1943, after her fourth flight arrived at the diagnosis previously mentioned. The remedy was to simply strengthen the mounting bots and the problem was solved." From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 7 17:20:59 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j181Kja5026325; Mon, 7 Feb 2005 17:20:45 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j181KceY026264; Mon, 7 Feb 2005 17:20:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 17:20:38 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [64.174.37.158] X-Originating-Email: [mgoldes msn.com] X-Sender: mgoldes msn.com In-Reply-To: <20050208003420.829413DDE xprdmailfe12.nwk.excite.com> From: "Mark Goldes" To: michael.foster excite.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Room-Temperature Superconductor Invented 25 Years Ago Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2005 17:18:09 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 08 Feb 2005 01:19:00.0790 (UTC) FILETIME=[2B902560:01C50D7C] Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57588 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Vo, He claims there were two additional Patents. Both were likely classified. The published one was largely concerned with the material as a candidate for improved turbine blades. He was employed by the USAF at Wright-Patterson prior to his retirement. Both he and the fellow who went on to GE claimed RTSC. On the other hand, perhaps it was just another USO. An Unidentified Superconducting Object:). Mark >From: "Michael Foster" >Reply-To: michael.foster excite.com >To: vortex-l eskimo.com >Subject: Re: Room-Temperature Superconductor Invented 25 Years Ago >Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 19:34:20 -0500 (EST) > > >This whole thing sounds fishy. First of all, the patent was assigned >to the U.S. government and never belonged to this fellow. Second, the >patent expired long ago and is in the public domain. Also, the >patent mentions *near* superconductivity. So why would he be >demanding big bucks and be "difficult to work with" about something >he doesn't and never did own? > >M. > >==================================================== > > > --- On Mon 02/07, Horace Heffner < hheffner mtaonline.net > wrote: >From: Horace Heffner [mailto: hheffner mtaonline.net] >To: vortex-l eskimo.com >Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 10:35:45 -0900 >Subject: Re: Room-Temperature Superconductor Invented 25 Years Ago > >At 10:39 AM 2/7/5, Mark S Bilk wrote:

>He's had a number of >companies interested in it, but none of them
>has met his demand of >$10,000,000 up front and a major share of
>the profits, without which he >won't release any of the material,
>although he will allow people to >bring their own equipment to
>his home and test his samples. The >details of the manufacturing
>process are not revealed in the patent >(which has expired by now).

A patent must provide enough information >that one skilled in the art can
obtain the utility of the patent. >Failure to reveal such information
invalidates the patent, and actually >should prevent its granting in the
first place if noticed by the >examiner. This is now a moot point if the
patent expired. In general, >you just can't have it both ways. You can't
hide some aspect of the >method of construction or manufacture that is
essential to fully >obtaining the utility claimed, and still expect to get a br>patent. A patent is essentially a *full* disclosure made in the >public
interest, in return for some number of years of a monopoly while >the
license fees are maintained. There is a duty to describe the >best
implimentation(s) known at the >time.


Regards,

Horace Heffner


> >_______________________________________________ >Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com >The most personalized portal on the Web! > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 7 17:36:59 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j181aAXl032309; Mon, 7 Feb 2005 17:36:15 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j181a6Gm032271; Mon, 7 Feb 2005 17:36:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 17:36:06 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20050208013557.13918.qmail web81105.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 17:35:57 -0800 (PST) From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: Room-Temperature Superconductor Invented 25 Years Ago To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <9qFrq.A.J4H.FeBCCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57589 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- Mark Goldes wrote: > On the other hand, perhaps it was just another USO. > An Unidentified Superconducting Object:) This is probably correct, and Mark is in the best position to judge, but the strange story behind MgB2 is not so different... it is not Room-Temperature, of course, but the material was known long ago before it was "rediscovered." and there again, we have boron popping up. > >Michael Foster writes, "This whole thing sounds fishy." On the contrary... the details make the story sound more, not less believable. >> First of all, the patent was assigned to the U.S. government and never belonged to this fellow. Exactamundo ! ... connect the dots, this should be clear the mystery... >> Second, the patent expired long ago and is in the public domain. >> H.H: In general, you just can't have it both ways. You can't hide some aspect of the method of construction or manufacture that is essential to fully obtaining the utility claimed.... This is naive. Trade secrets are routinely withheld. I have never seen a patent successfully challenged for withholding a trade secret, although it is definitely in the wording of the patent law. I suspect most patents withhold many secrets. It is just way too easy to say that the challenger was "unskilled" in the art... Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 7 18:22:08 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j182Ldhn018845; Mon, 7 Feb 2005 18:21:40 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j182LaPo018793; Mon, 7 Feb 2005 18:21:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 18:21:36 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Room-Temperature Superconductor Invented 25 Years Ago Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 21:22:18 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <0502071043060J.00313 isis> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57590 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hey All. As regards the patent, here's the INPADOC data. ///////////////////////////////////// Legal status (INPADOC) of US4349636 US F 26366581 A (Patent of invention) PRS Date : 1983/05/10 PRS Code : CC Code Expl.: CERTIFICATE OF CORRECTION PRS Date : 1994/11/22 PRS Code : FP Code Expl.: - EXPIRED DUE TO FAILURE TO PAY MAINTENANCE FEE EFFECTIVE DATE: 19940914 ///////////////////////////////////// Apparently someone got tired of shopping the thing around in '94, and pulled the plug. K. -----Original Message----- From: Mark S Bilk [mailto:mark cosmicpenguin.com] Sent: Monday, February 07, 2005 1:39 PM To: Vortex List Subject: Room-Temperature Superconductor Invented 25 Years Ago In-Reply-To: <3k7897$nc0008 mxip12a.cluster1.charter.net> Organization: http://www.cosmicpenguin.com/911 The October 9, 1980 issue of _Electronics_ magazine carried an article titled "Superconductivity at room temperature reported by Air Force researcher". Fred W. Valhdiek, a materials research engineer at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base in Dayton Ohio, subjected titanium boride to extremely high pressure, and created crystals that were superconducting at room temperature (after removal from the press). He was awarded U.S. Patent 4,349,636 for this in 1982. I talked with him by phone several times over the years since then. He denied that he was given a piece of superconducting material from the Roswell saucer (which was said to have been taken to Wright-Pat) and asked to duplicate it; he said he was just looking for improved high-temperature material for turbine blades. He said he clamped four TiB crystals together in a square and used a magnetic field to create a persistent current. Later he said that he was able to create (very stiff) wire out of the material, and made a ring of it that carried a persistent current. The persistent currents have lasted for months. The material remains superconducting in a magnetic field of 1,000,000 gauss. He's had a number of companies interested in it, but none of them has met his demand of $10,000,000 up front and a major share of the profits, without which he won't release any of the material, although he will allow people to bring their own equipment to his home and test his samples. The details of the manufacturing process are not revealed in the patent (which has expired by now). He said the U.S. government isn't interested in it. He said he talked with EPRI. The last time I spoke with him was June 2003. This ridiculous situation has been going on for twenty-five years! It would really be nice if someone with money could reach an agreement with this man before he shuffles off to the next world, taking the secret with him (if he hasn't already). His e-mail address is fvahl aol.com Mark On Mon, Feb 07, 2005 at 02:50:05PM +0000, orionworks charter.net wrote: >> >>http://www.theenergyguy.com/USEnFlow00-quads.pdf > >Thanks for bringing this graphic to my attention, Jed. >It continues to astonish me to realize the actual percentage of >energy wasted just trying to get to the final destination. > >Makes me hope that affordable room temperature superconductivity >might soon be around the corner. >Steven Vincent Johnson From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 7 18:44:45 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j182iThn028767; Mon, 7 Feb 2005 18:44:30 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j182iSkt028758; Mon, 7 Feb 2005 18:44:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 18:44:28 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 17:53:56 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Room-Temperature Superconductor Invented 25 Years Ago Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57591 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 5:35 PM 2/7/5, Jones Beene wrote: > >This is naive. Trade secrets are routinely withheld. I >have never seen a patent successfully challenged for >withholding a trade secret, although it is definitely >in the wording of the patent law. I suspect most >patents withhold many secrets. It is just way too easy >to say that the challenger was "unskilled" in the >art... Witholding information is a great way to lose a patent battle. If it can be shown witholding the information was deliberate then the patent is invalidated. If someone else applies for a patent on the secret, the holder of the secret can not even continue to use his own trade secret because to be able to use it he likely has to disclose he knew about it when he filed for the patent, and thus invalidate what is alrady patented. Further, if not enough information is disclosed for the patent to have utility, one of the requirements for a patent, it is invalidated. Lastly, if a patent is issued to, i.e. an interference is created by, another entity wherein the full disclosure of the "trade secret" is made, and the approach works for anyone skilled in the arts, the court can give the better disclosed application priority, because to follow the fully disclosed approach is to succeed, while to follow the prescription in the partially disclosed work is to fail. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 7 18:51:33 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j182pEhn031595; Mon, 7 Feb 2005 18:51:14 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j182p9e0031560; Mon, 7 Feb 2005 18:51:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 18:51:09 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: <38582d7c-8991-4cd9-bd52-ec8db5747479> Message-ID: <00bd01c50d89$028309f0$bb59ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <5.2.0.9.2.20050206182606.00b1fb90 mail.dlsi.net> Subject: Re: Role of God in government Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 21:22:58 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00AF_01C50D5B.31E8E9E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57592 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00AF_01C50D5B.31E8E9E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Steven Krivit wrote:=20 Ed, I think this a follow-up thread to that of Bill Moyers discussing the = relationship between environment, religion and our government. I'll add my $0.01 (devalued dollar, you know.) =20 -This- high-tech worker has been significantly replaced by inexpensive = labor in India, too. Do not forget to mention that this 'inespensive labor' in India is = just as 'high tech' as the workers displaced here. India has a large = population of highly educated, intelligent, sophisticated workers as = able to do tech support and programming as US workers are. The living = costs and expectations there are currently lower than in the US, so = acceptable salaries are also lower. When I call Microsoft of HP tech = support, I have talked to people in India, but also Toronto, Nova Scotia = and Ireland, depending on the time of day. Tech support is always pot = luck, sometimes very good and other times not what I need.=20 What is at hand here is plain competition, someone able to the job = cheaper than you want to get paid. it is the reason the fabric mills = moved out of New England to the US Southeast, and then to the orient. = Electronic transmission of knowledge has become very cheap.=20 Conditions change, and outsourcing and become insourcing as domestic = manufacturing processes get more efficient, but that does not mean the = old workforce will be hired back.=20 Mike Carrell ------=_NextPart_000_00AF_01C50D5B.31E8E9E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Steven Krivit wrote:
 
Ed,

I think this a follow-up thread to that = of Bill=20 Moyers discussing the relationship between environment, religion and = our=20 government.

I'll add my $0.01 (devalued dollar, you = know.) =20
-This- high-tech worker has been significantly replaced by = inexpensive=20 labor in India, too.
Do not forget to mention that this = 'inespensive labor'=20 in India is just as 'high tech' as the workers displaced here. India = has a=20 large population of highly educated, intelligent, sophisticated = workers as=20 able to do tech support and programming as US workers are. The living = costs=20 and expectations there are currently lower than in the US, so = acceptable=20 salaries are also lower. When I call Microsoft of HP tech support, I = have=20 talked to people in India, but also Toronto, Nova Scotia and Ireland,=20 depending on the time of day. Tech support is always pot luck, = sometimes very=20 good and other times not what I need.
 
What is at hand here is plain competition, = someone able=20 to the job cheaper than you want to get paid. it is the reason the = fabric=20 mills moved out of New England to the US Southeast, and then to the = orient.=20 Electronic transmission of knowledge has become very cheap. =
 
Conditions change, and outsourcing and become = insourcing=20 as domestic manufacturing processes get more efficient, but that does = not mean=20 the old workforce will be hired back.
 
Mike = Carrell
------=_NextPart_000_00AF_01C50D5B.31E8E9E0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 7 19:56:07 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j183tZhn025869; Mon, 7 Feb 2005 19:55:36 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j183tIvm025662; Mon, 7 Feb 2005 19:55:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 19:55:18 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2005 22:53:18 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: gravity is a rush In-reply-to: <003401c50d39$c3e26be0$fe78a8c0 BioLifeStyle5> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_Yr9Ye315XtLVsT0REKuMew)" User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: <3qg_oC.A.xQG.lgDCCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57593 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --Boundary_(ID_Yr9Ye315XtLVsT0REKuMew) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Witness the poetry of extreme sports to see gravity in a new light... Gravity is a rush Gravity is life affirming. It is liberating. It is not a burden. Harry --Boundary_(ID_Yr9Ye315XtLVsT0REKuMew) Content-type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT gravity is a rush

Witness the poetry of extreme sports
to see gravity in a new light...

Gravity is a rush
Gravity is life affirming. It is liberating.
It is not a burden.


Harry

--Boundary_(ID_Yr9Ye315XtLVsT0REKuMew)-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 7 20:30:21 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j184TrgW011603; Mon, 7 Feb 2005 20:29:54 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j184TY0e011333; Mon, 7 Feb 2005 20:29:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 20:29:34 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Room-Temperature Superconductor Invented 25 Years Ago X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: ID = 7b84137320e539ae3bcf255acd0b8dbd Reply-To: michael.foster excite.com From: "Michael Foster" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: michael.foster excite.com X-Mailer: PHP Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050208042918.646E83E6A xprdmailfe6.nwk.excite.com> Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 23:29:18 -0500 (EST) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57594 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 5:35 PM 2/7/5, Jones Beene wrote: > >This is naive. Trade secrets are routinely withheld. I >have never seen a patent successfully challenged for >withholding a trade secret, although it is definitely >in the wording of the patent law. I suspect most >patents withhold many secrets. It is just way too easy >to say that the challenger was "unskilled" in the >art... It might be naive, but I have been personally involved in a case where two patents were invalidated for that very reason. The real reason is that the patents, like most patents, shouldn't have been issued in the first place. "Inventors" who patent unoriginal ideas tend to mouth off a lot about how clever they are, and in so doing open themselves to this sort of action. M. _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 7 21:19:08 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j185InqM001759; Mon, 7 Feb 2005 21:18:53 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j185Ik1R001729; Mon, 7 Feb 2005 21:18:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 21:18:46 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20050208051833.54141.qmail web81102.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 21:18:33 -0800 (PST) From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: Room-Temperature Superconductor Invented 25 Years Ago To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <20050208042918.646E83E6A xprdmailfe6.nwk.excite.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57595 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- Michael Foster wrote: > >This is naive. Trade secrets are routinely withheld. I > >have never seen a patent successfully challenged for > >withholding a trade secret, although it is definitely > >in the wording of the patent law. I suspect most > >patents withhold many secrets. It is just way too easy > >to say that the challenger was "unskilled" in the > >art... > It might be naive, but I have been personally > involved in a case where two patents were invalidated for > that very reason. The real reason is that the patents, > like most patents, shouldn't have been issued in the > first place. "Inventors" who patent unoriginal ideas tend > to mouth off a lot about how clever they are ... This is not "that very reason" - at least not as you have described it. What is the case name? What you are referring to appears to be either the issue of "obviousness" or "known in prior art" - not lack of disclosure. The two are quite different. To assert lack of disclosure, you have to prove that the device, which IS otherwise patentable but cannot be built by one "skilled in the art" as described - and to counter this, all the patent holder needs to do is show that someone skilled in the art can build it. The burden of evidence is almost impossible to overcome as it estremely overweighted in avor of the patent holder. For instance, here is how this could play out in the case of tungsten boride. Let's say the hidden trade secret is that it needs to be "forged slowly over time in a certain way". The claim is only for "forged" but the trade secret withheld is the way it is done. You claim you couldn't do it. He goes out and hires expert-liar-PhD so-and-so, who comes into court and says, "wrong, I did it and therefore you are not skilled in the art." IOW the evidential burden is almost impossible to overcome without a showing of actual criminal conduct. Read the Rambus case, etc. They hid everything and still got to keep the patent. If you have real case law, I would actually like to read it. It is an area of law that is changing, but it is naive to think that this does not go on all the time, especially with government patents. Hey, Presidents are not supposed to have sex with interns or invade sovereign nations either, so what. Laws are routinely by-passed at every level of government. Surprise, surprise. The chief scientist can see the writing on the wall at his retirement - no royalites and no decent retirement income unless he can hire on to some independent company as a consultant and explain everything he inadvertently left out in the patent - which, of course, he had no choice but to assign to uncle Sam. It's called self-interest or even "survival" if you want to get it down to basics. And look at how many patents Sam gets every year -everything they fund, they keep the rights to. Geeze, does anyone really think that all government scientists are somehow more honorable than the ones who can get hired in industry and get a reward of stock options or royalties? ...like they are doing us a favor or something by obeying the letter of the law instead of looking after their own interests ... I don't think so. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 7 23:39:12 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j187cmr8028466; Mon, 7 Feb 2005 23:38:49 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j187cigq028434; Mon, 7 Feb 2005 23:38:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 23:38:44 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Room-Temperature Superconductor Invented 25 Years Ago X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: ID = 7b84137320e539ae3bcf255acd0b8dbd Reply-To: michael.foster excite.com From: "Michael Foster" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: michael.foster excite.com X-Mailer: PHP Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050208073825.1A9FA3DE1 xprdmailfe6.nwk.excite.com> Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 02:38:25 -0500 (EST) Resent-Message-ID: <7d22QB.A.G8G.CyGCCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57596 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: No, the patents were invalidated for failure to disclose "best methods". I was to be called as an expert witness, but I never testified because the "inventors" had actually made public statements bragging about how they had obtained patents, but that no one would be able to do what they had because the actual formulation had not been disclosed in the patent. This involved the Upper Deck trading card company and, as I recall, American Banknote Holographics, although it might have been another manufacturer. It was about 15 years ago. I have no idea what the case number was, or if there was one. The patents covered an utterly trivial and obvious method of lamination of a hologram to a paper substrate. And, of course, I completely agree with you that it is extremely easy, ordinarily, to get away with this sort of thing. It goes on all the time. There is a company called Battelle (sp?) Memorial Institute whose entire reason for existence seems to be to magically transform publicly funded research into private intellectual property packages without reimbursing the taxpayers. Perhaps I'm wrong about this, but that's how it appears to me. Know anything about this, Keith? M. ========================================= Jones Beene wrote: This is not "that very reason" - at least not as you have described it. What is the case name? What you are referring to appears to be either the issue of "obviousness" or "known in prior art" - not lack of disclosure. The two are quite different. To assert lack of disclosure, you have to prove that the device, which IS otherwise patentable but cannot be built by one "skilled in the art" as described - and to counter this, all the patent holder needs to do is show that someone skilled in the art can build it. The burden of evidence is almost impossible to overcome as it estremely overweighted in avor of the patent holder. For instance, here is how this could play out in the case of tungsten boride. Let's say the hidden trade secret is that it needs to be "forged slowly over time in a certain way". The claim is only for "forged" but the trade secret withheld is the way it is done. You claim you couldn't do it. He goes out and hires expert-liar-PhD so-and-so, who comes into court and says, "wrong, I did it and therefore you are not skilled in the art." IOW the evidential burden is almost impossible to overcome without a showing of actual criminal conduct. Read the Rambus case, etc. They hid everything and still got to keep the patent. If you have real case law, I would actually like to read it. It is an area of law that is changing, but it is naive to think that this does not go on all the time, especially with government patents. Hey, Presidents are not supposed to have sex with interns or invade sovereign nations either, so what. Laws are routinely by-passed at every level of government. Surprise, surprise. The chief scientist can see the writing on the wall at his retirement - no royalites and no decent retirement income unless he can hire on to some independent company as a consultant and explain everything he inadvertently left out in the patent - which, of course, he had no choice but to assign to uncle Sam. It's called self-interest or even "survival" if you want to get it down to basics. And look at how many patents Sam gets every year -everything they fund, they keep the rights to. Geeze, does anyone really think that all government scientists are somehow more honorable than the ones who can get hired in industry and get a reward of stock options or royalties? ...like they are doing us a favor or something by obeying the letter of the law instead of looking after their own interests ... I don't think so. Jones _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 8 03:48:53 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j18BmQr8021562; Tue, 8 Feb 2005 03:48:34 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j18BmHXg021501; Tue, 8 Feb 2005 03:48:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 03:48:17 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: John Fields To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Room-Temperature Superconductor Invented 25 Years Ago Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2005 05:47:53 -0600 Organization: Austin Instruments, Inc Message-ID: References: <20050208042918.646E83E6A xprdmailfe6.nwk.excite.com> <20050208051833.54141.qmail@web81102.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20050208051833.54141.qmail web81102.mail.yahoo.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j18Bm8r8021448 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57597 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Mon, 7 Feb 2005 21:18:33 -0800 (PST), you wrote: >And look at how many >patents Sam gets every year -everything they fund, >they keep the rights to. --- Yes, and what's irked me for years is that they do the development with public funds which, unless there's some compelling reason not to, (genuine national defense, for example) should put what they find squarely in the public domain. -- John Fields From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 8 06:08:05 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j18E7kr8012298; Tue, 8 Feb 2005 06:07:50 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j18E7ibq012273; Tue, 8 Feb 2005 06:07:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 06:07:44 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <001201c50de7$8b651070$0100007f xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: Room temperature superconductor invented.. Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 08:06:59 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000E_01C50DB5.2A3168D0"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-98.9 required=4.0 tests=HTML_20_30,HTML_MESSAGE, J_CHICKENPOX_43,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57598 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C50DB5.2A3168D0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000F_01C50DB5.2A32EF70" ------=_NextPart_001_000F_01C50DB5.2A32EF70 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankA copyright is simple and inexpensive. A registered trademark is = more expensive. A patent can be much more expensive. A copyright has = more protection than most patents. A registered trademark has near = absolute rights. Unless there are strong circumstances, like a major = advancement in state of the art technology, a patent process is a waste = of time and money. The energy devoted to the patent process can be a = diversion and best spent on product quality, performance and name = recognition. Watching new business startups, notice the time and money they devote to = selecting the design of their business card and office furniture. Get there " fustest with the mostest" as the battlefield commander once = stated. Later , if you wish to=20 play " Enron" displaying the crooked " E", you may have the money to do = it but the wisdom to choose not to.=20 In our market, we have the product in service, operating and have our = money while our competitors devote their time merging several times over = the past 10 years, destroying morale of their people each time they = merge. They change names as often as we introduce new products. Guess = who wins? The old adage .. build a better mousetrap and customers will beat a path = to your door is something a banker would come up with,not a businessman. = Show me someone that can sell a product and we will build them faster = than you can sell them. Consider this simple comment and you will have a better insight into = what " China" actually means. Sam Walton saw this years ago and tailored = WalMart around the concept. Our government is working for our = competitors by having advisors that have a banker mentality and = lobbyists prove it everyday. This is the dirty little secret to the free = trade issue. Our nation has the technology, we have marketing = technology. we waste that resource on stuff like TV ads for the = Superbowl.=20 Richard ------=_NextPart_001_000F_01C50DB5.2A32EF70 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
A copyright is simple and inexpensive. A = registered=20 trademark is more expensive. A patent can be much more expensive. A = copyright=20 has more protection than most patents. A registered trademark has near = absolute=20 rights. Unless there are strong circumstances, like a  major = advancement in=20 state of the art technology, a patent process is a waste of time = and money.=20 The energy devoted to the patent process can be a diversion and best = spent on=20 product quality, performance and name recognition.
Watching new business startups, notice the = time and=20 money they devote to selecting the design of their business card and = office=20 furniture.
Get there " fustest with the mostest" as the = battlefield=20 commander once stated. Later , if you wish to
play " Enron" displaying the crooked " E", = you may=20 have the money to do it but the wisdom to choose not = to. 
In our market, we have the product in service, = operating=20 and have our money while our competitors devote their = time merging=20 several times over the past 10 years, destroying morale of their people = each=20 time they merge. They change names as often as we introduce new = products. Guess=20 who wins?
The old adage .. build a better mousetrap and = customers=20 will beat a path to your door is something a banker would come up = with,not a=20 businessman. Show me someone that can sell a product and we will build=20 them faster than you can sell them.
Consider this simple comment and you will have = a better=20 insight into what " China" actually means. Sam Walton saw this years ago = and=20 tailored WalMart around the concept. Our government is working for our=20 competitors by having advisors that have a banker mentality and = lobbyists prove=20 it everyday. This is the dirty little secret to the free trade issue. = Our nation=20 has the technology, we have marketing technology. = we waste that=20 resource on stuff like TV ads for the Superbowl.
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_000F_01C50DB5.2A32EF70-- ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C50DB5.2A3168D0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000d01c50de7$74bfa3d0$0100007f xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C50DB5.2A3168D0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 8 08:30:31 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j18GTuNP020729; Tue, 8 Feb 2005 08:29:57 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j18GTsMw020709; Tue, 8 Feb 2005 08:29:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 08:29:54 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=CASJp/bHKn+xv9rUmJmdMTbyUu/Bue3rBNxEJ7Fv65B8FPte6UcYckCpNmLAlmri; Message-ID: <410-2200522815298220 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: High Energy Electron Bombardment of LiD & LiH, Was.. Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 09:29:08 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9409d06cb9d0a73de00b14aed54ad7b9df5350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.159.153 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57599 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Horace Heffner wrote: > > Energetically effective fusion created using electron beams I think is or would be essentially > electron catalysed fusion. This requires a minimum beam intensity of > 1x10^19 electrons/(cm^2*s), > Commercially available Electron Beam Welders can put 3.10e-18 electrons per second into a weld piece with a 150 Kev - 0.4 millimeter diameter beam . > > but I think improves with increased intensity. > Achieving a fast, dense, and high energy electron flux imposed on > inertially confined hydrogen might best be done using x-rays, however. > The problem with generating x-rays with electrons, is the low generation efficiency: X-ray yield (%) = 1.216e-7 * Z * Volts (about 1% efficiency for tungsten, Z = 74) Also collimating them is a bit of a problem as they are finding out with laser-generated x-rays. At these energies the x-rays undergo the Compton (Scattering) Effect giving up to 1/3 their energy to the electrons (about 60 Kev max.with 200 Kev x-ray photons). Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

Horace Heffner wrote:
 
>
> Energetically effective fusion created using electron beams I think is or would be essentially
> electron catalysed fusion.  This requires a minimum beam intensity of
> 1x10^19 electrons/(cm^2*s),
>
Commercially available Electron Beam Welders can put 3.10e-18 electrons per second
into a weld piece with  a 150 Kev - 0.4 millimeter diameter beam .
>
> but I think improves with increased intensity.
> Achieving a fast, dense, and high energy electron flux imposed on
> inertially confined hydrogen might best be done using x-rays, however.
>
 
The problem with generating x-rays with electrons, is the low generation efficiency:
 
X-ray yield (%) = 1.216e-7 * Z * Volts     (about 1% efficiency for tungsten, Z = 74)
 
Also collimating them is a bit of a problem as they are finding out with laser-generated x-rays. 
 
At these energies the x-rays undergo the Compton (Scattering) Effect giving up to 1/3 their
energy to the electrons (about 60 Kev max.with  200 Kev x-ray photons).
 
Frederick

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 8 08:36:38 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j18Ga4NP023450; Tue, 8 Feb 2005 08:36:05 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j18GZvst023380; Tue, 8 Feb 2005 08:35:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 08:35:57 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050208113443.029dbe20 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2005 11:35:49 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: ICENES 2005 announcement Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j18GZnNP023299 Resent-Message-ID: <9kHju.A.EtF.rpOCCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57600 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Colleagues, The deadline for submitting your abstract for ICENES'2005 is quickly approaching. We would like to draw your attention to the deadline of February 28, 2005. You will find attached the ICENES’2005 leaflet. Please distribute this leaflet to anyone who might be interested. Best Regards, Bernard Verboomen ICENES 2005 scientific secretary ICENES 2005 12th International Conference on Emerging Nuclear Energy Systems August 21-26, 2005 http://www.sckcen.be/icenes2005 Hotel Métropole, Place de Brouckère 31, 1000 Bruxelles, Belgium Hosted by SCK•CEN The Belgian Nuclear Research Centre Boeretang 200 B-2400 Mol, Belgium DEADLINE FOR ABSTRACT SUBMISSION: February 28, 2005 Ir. Bernard VERBOOMEN Belgian Nuclear Research Centre (SCK·CEN) Reactor Physics & Myrrha Department Neutronics Calculation Section Boeretang, 200 B-2400 Mol Belgium Tel. : (+32-14) 33 21 88 Fax. : (+32-14) 32 15 29 E-Mail : bverboom sckcen.be From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 8 08:50:33 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j18GoJDW030263; Tue, 8 Feb 2005 08:50:19 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j18GoFQu030228; Tue, 8 Feb 2005 08:50:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 08:50:15 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20050208164940.4567.qmail web81107.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 08:49:40 -0800 (PST) From: Jones Beene Subject: FSB: Who Needs Oil? To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57601 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: ... or... businessmen with a social-conscience to the rescue. There is some hope from the entrepreneurial front in the War on Oil-excess, which could probably eliminate more terror than anything our lame government can do with the current 2.5 trillion budget (and projected deficit of $600 billion - projection courtesy of the other-side) let's hope it is not a case of "too little too late" from the businessmen with a social-conscience. In this month's "Fortune Small Business" there are some interesting stories http://www.fortune.com/fortune/smallbusiness ...like "The Green CEO" Bob Bechtold created one of the most energy-efficient manufacturers in America. He generates as much as 95% of its electricity, uses cogeneration, and has electric and biodiesel vehicles. I suspect Richard is doing something in this regard also. All it takes is a social conscience... but "God in government" apparently is antithetical to having a real social conscience-consciousness these days, isn't it? Would a real social conscience at the highest level have allowed the defense budget to increase 40% in four years while social programs are cut to the bone and Americans are still going hungry and homeless? If all companies took Bob's cue, we would need zero oil from the mideast. That's right... do the numbers: corporate energy consumptions (excluding the power generation industry) about equals imports from the Arab world. Also check out the "Sunflower" a planned $400 item that can produce electricity for a claimed 6 cents per kwh... not bad. Let's hope the blooming idea does not get pruned by the new Enron... or whomever has now filled their corporate vacancy. Does the enemy have a name? Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 8 09:28:58 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j18HSQcT015600; Tue, 8 Feb 2005 09:28:26 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j18HRa2E015068; Tue, 8 Feb 2005 09:27:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 09:27:36 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <420788F2.8070809 ix.netcom.com> References: <004901c50ccd$9c16b510$a6037841 xptower> <420788F2.8070809 ix.netcom.com> Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 11:26:52 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: Fw: Role of God in government Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: <8Y4iGC.A.HrD.FaPCCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57602 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Given the questions raised by Ed Storms and Leaking Pen in particular, I decided to answer them. Dear Ed; I'd like to make five challenges to you. These papers will give you some insight into our beliefs, BTW, Prager, Satinover and Singer are religious Jews. One, take the Dennis Prager Are you a Liberal? quiz, www.dennisprager.com , two, read Is Liberalism a Brain Disease? which you can link to from Dr. Jeffrey Satinover's website, www.satinover.com , while you're there, take a look at his credentials , three, listen to Roy Moore's speech, Is America a Christian Nation? four, as Isaac B Singer said, consider a watch. The watch implies a watchmaker. It's not only that the web of life is way more complicated than the watch, two half worn out organisms can get together and make a perfect little organism. It's called sexual fusion, and if you think that the rest of the process is complicated, AFLIK, it's the one of the few mechanisms I know of that reverses the Second Law, and we have even less understanding of it than we do about how the rest of the system works. Five, there is the 1890 Supreme Court decision that I mention near the end of the post. Ed posted It is obvious that several contributors to Vortex hold very strong opinions about the Christian religion. It is also obvious that such opinions are shaping national policy in ways that are not beneficial to the general population. We went to war based on the lie that Iraq had WMD, the social security system is being changed based on several lies, we send our work overseas based on the lie that this is good for our economy, we now have the largest debt of any nation at any time in history based on a lie that this does not matter, and now the fundamental relationship between religion and government is being changed based on a lie. I'm interested to know how people who support the present government justify this approach and how this tendency to lie squares with their understanding of the Christian religion. If a person supports obvious lies, how can anything they say be trusted? My response; I don't like much of what the Bush Administration is doing. With regards to the WDM, there were two ships which left Iraq just before the invasion. There was a convoy of trucks which went across the Syrian boarder a short time later. There were Syrian Army bulldozers waiting for them. They dug trenches and buried them. It doesn't take an MBA to realize that's not business as usual. I heard both stories on talk radio, other than that, I don't think that there in the media. I'm going to have dinner with Hugh Hewitt, www.hughhewitt.com on Thursday. I'm going to enjoy recounting this conversation with him. Hugh is looking for educated Liberals like you, he likes to have them call in to his radio program. We had no alternative but to vote for Bush, Senator Flip Flop's only consistent position was for pro abortion. We regard the abortatoriums as America's holocaust. As for the economy, what choice did W have? He had to make the economy grow short term or he and the Republican Party were history. Hugh and I think that Dean's election to the DNC Chair is just hilarious, the lunatics have solidified their control of the asylum. As for your other questions, I cover them in the rest of the post. Later Leaking Pen Posted; ed, you've gone exactly where i was about too. the neo-cons currently running our country don't believe in science. its a simple fact. but it gets worse than that. if you've read some of the old documents from PNAC, you'd know that the neo-con agenda is a rather simple one. they are trying to actively bring about armageddon and the rapture. My response; Typical Leaking Pen nonsense. You've decided that because they question some of your conclusions they don't believe in science, this is a classic Leaking Pen nonsequitar. As for bringing on Armagedon, what part of divinely ordained don't you understand? Ed Storms posted; >and RC Macaulay responded: > >> >> The reference article by Brooke Allen attached to Dr. Storms post >>quotes Ben Franklin. >> " as for Jesus of Nazareth.. is a question I do not >>dogmatize upon, having never studied it >> That is a most revealing statement. At least Franklin had the >>wisdom to defer an opinion because he didn't know the subject. Of the men who presided over the writing of The Declaration of Independence, and the Constitution, there were a few, less than five, deists. The rest of them were what would today be called Evangelicals. I find it very disingenuous for people take the beliefs of that small group and draw the inference that America was not a Christian country. > >> What do people find that is offensive in Jesus teaching? No, not >>what people say that Jesus taught.. BUT.. what Jesus taught.. His >>words. > >I doubt that anyone rejects the words of Jesus. In any case, that >is not the issue. The issue is the teachings of certain religious >sects that have been created based on their understanding of the >Bible. These sects are based on conclusions that are not >universally accepted and are damaging to the general public when >they are put into policy. There are 2000+ sects of Christianity. It never ceases to amaze me how some of them twist Bible verses up like a pretzel in order to justify their particular beliefs. Most Evangelicals, who start with the premise that the Bible is the inerrorant word of G-d, have come to similar conclusions to what I have. > > >> I am a believer, I am a servant / follower of Jesus Christ. >>I believe in the separation of church and state. I believe in >>voluntary prayer in schools and in government. >>I do not believe it should be mandated. > >If everyone had this approach, the problems would not exist. I disagree, the problem is Human Evil which grows out of our sinful nature, which is why the World's condition continues to deteriorate. This deterioration has been dramatically accelerated is the last 100+ years because of the efforts of a group of people who are promoting their religion, Secular Humanism. They took over the educational system and began miss educating one generation after another. >> I cannot change anyones mind about their beliefs. I can tell you >>what wonderful >> > Dr. Storms quotes a poorly written article in the " Nation" , an >AP/CBS interest You have to understand Ed, that the main stream media is bias against us. If you want to hear the other side of the argument, I'd like to recommend that you listen to a speech given by Judge Roy Moore. I'll arrange for you to listen to it if you want to. >Poorly written or not, a reading of any good history book shows that >the founding fathers did not believe that Christianity should be the >basis for the US government. Modern history books which were written by people who are suffering from the brain disease of Liberalism. In 1890 the Supreme Court issued a decision on the matter, after ten years of study, they concluded that America was a Christian Nation. >The point of the article is that the Bush administration is giving >the impression that this is a Christian nation in which the other >religions are tolerated. Therefore, he feels free to impose policies >that is based on what certain Christians believe. For example, that >homosexuality is a sin, that life begins at conception, and that the >Rapture is a real event. All of these beliefs are unique to certain >Christian sects and not to religion in general, yet the beliefs are >being supported with enthusiasm by the administration. That is the conclusion that most Evangelicals have reached. This conclusion is based on studying the Bible starting with the premise that it is the inerrorant word of G-d. >> Perhaps the greatest hindrance to the advancement of science is >>the habit of lying to oneself, not to others. Yourself is the very worst person that you can lie to. ` >Perhaps, but eventually people who lie to themselves also lie to >others. Also, two kinds of lying people exist. Some people lie >because they can not help it. They base their view of reality on >their unique understanding that is unmodified by experience. On the >other hand, people lie for personal gain. These people know they are >lying and are only intent on gaining power and advantage over other >people. Politicians are noted for being this kind of liars. > >For those of you who think this thread has gone too far from an >accepted subject for Vortex, let me propose that the attitude of >government plays a significant role in the creation and solving of >problems. Science can not do everything, especially when le who >suggest that the system is broken? This thread has delved into Natural Philosophy which is the basis of science. > >Perhaps answers to these questions can not be given. In which case, >I apologize for the bother. > >Regards. >Ed Storms >> Richard It's been a marvelous chance to vent. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 8 09:42:12 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j18HftcT023041; Tue, 8 Feb 2005 09:41:55 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j18HflV1022963; Tue, 8 Feb 2005 09:41:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 09:41:47 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 08:51:02 -0900 To: "vortex-l" From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: High Energy Electron Bombardment of LiD & LiH, Was.. Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57603 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 9:29 AM 2/8/5, Frederick Sparber wrote: >Horace Heffner wrote: > >> >> Energetically effective fusion created using electron beams I think is >>or would be essentially >> electron catalysed fusion. This requires a minimum beam intensity of >> 1x10^19 electrons/(cm^2*s), >> >Commercially available Electron Beam Welders can put 3.10e-18 electrons >per second >into a weld piece with a 150 Kev - 0.4 millimeter diameter beam . OK, so that's a beam intensity of (3x10^18 electrons/sec)/(Pi*(0.02cm)^2) = 2.39x10^21 electrons/(cm^2*s), which is about 2000 times the minimum intensity, thus very good. The principle remaining problem is target vaporization and destruction of the confinement. It might be better to operate with a pulsed electron supply. >> >> but I think improves with increased intensity. >> Achieving a fast, dense, and high energy electron flux imposed on >> inertially confined hydrogen might best be done using x-rays, however. >> > >The problem with generating x-rays with electrons, is the low generation >efficiency: > >X-ray yield (%) = 1.216e-7 * Z * Volts (about 1% efficiency for >tungsten, Z = 74) I don't understand this. If the source is 1.216x10^8 volts the efficiency is 740 percent? The above only applies in some range? > >Also collimating them is a bit of a problem as they are finding out with >laser-generated x-rays. Yes. In a lab x-rays can be focused by refraction using lenses made out of pitch, etc., or by use of reflection at high incidence off the inside of lots of small metal tubes. Parabolic reflection might be inefficient to impossible depending on energy. > >At these energies the x-rays undergo the Compton (Scattering) Effect >giving up to 1/3 their >energy to the electrons (about 60 Kev max.with 200 Kev x-ray photons). > >Frederick Yes, so with efficiency factors of 0.01 for x-ray generation and .33 for momentum exchange we get down to a net factor 0.0033, which is not insurmountable in pulsed mode. So, a pulse generator is needed that is much more than 100 times the current and whichis also about 3 times the voltage of the electron welder, but only briefly. Cooling pulsed x-ray tubes is less difficult than continuous duty tubes. The target could a multi-layer target, consisting of, for example, an outer jacket of x-ray transparent confinement material with highest Z possible, an LiD-LiT mixture, mixed with an x-ray reflecting/dispersing powder, a high-z confinement jacket, and an LiD-LiT core? Perhaps some layer in the scheme would best be a D-T loaded metal. It certainly would be quite a large effort to obtain a practical energy generating device, because the x-rays would have to come into the target from all directions. Perhaps a mono-directional device would be possible if the target were surrounded by a high z material (W or Pb) with a hole for the x-rays and a somewhat x-ray transparent confining plug, possibly a D-T loaded metal, like Ti. Just thinking out loud. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 8 10:00:24 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j18HxbcT001766; Tue, 8 Feb 2005 09:59:39 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j18HxLhp001574; Tue, 8 Feb 2005 09:59:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 09:59:21 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=qzIVhrJmms7845wM0xTaA2l7yyQfFlee6snkQfaHZUmtNlbz+AjviorZEO98mlstymiFCwaeR5xR4K0HAwthK1ngZmqe68uREYm9tcQv4/PfNEf3xEM4mJAF0RUsqRrBpYVWYuAB7Y0BwkWDj2YSwL4DuM9gkUONdZD7HSIimGc= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 10:58:36 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Fw: Role of God in government In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 References: <004901c50ccd$9c16b510$a6037841 xptower> <420788F2.8070809 ix.netcom.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j18HwccT001231 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57604 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: wow. screw drinking the kool aid, youve been bathing in it. have already seen all the above links. fail to see how they matter. as for your other points, kerrys positions were rock solid, but when you take things out of context, like removing the word NOT before a stament (done on 4 seperate occasions) you can make anyone sound like flip flopping. as for the economy, even with the bursting dot com bubble, the economy WAS still growing at a decent rate until those tax cuts kicked in. as for dean, hes actually very centrist, the only really liberal opinion he held was being very anti war, and the only thing that hurt him was the screaming bit, which, if youve seen teh video, instead of just listening to the tape of his single noise cancelling microphone, youd know that he was in a packed auditorium of over a thousand screaming cheering people, and had to scream like that into the mike to get himself heard. once again, the "liberal" media. if you think thats a nonsequitor, id suggest taking a look at the pnac website. they have issued statements on several occasions condeming scientists and science in general, claiming that to attempt to understand how the universe works is inherently blasphemous. THEY have stated, on more than one occasion, that they dont believe in science. evangelical? the majority were of the belief that forcing religion was wrong, hence the no state relgion part of the bill of rights. and sorry, no. the majority of the signers were non christian, however outspoken they may have been on religion. those that could compare with falwell were in the minority, same as today. they are simply a LOUD minority. i take great offense that someone would draw from that small group of people the inference that America WAS a christian nation. (works both ways.) most evangelicals state that the bible is the inerrant word of god, but only those parts they like. at the end, ive attached a little letter to the president. its quite funny. you'll like it. then well see how innerrant you think the bible is. so, you get to define evil and sin? see, this is why we have the first ammendment. RELIGION WILL NOT EVER DEFINE RIGHT AND WRONG IN AMERICA. the moment it takes over that fully, the country that i love will be dead. it is unfortunetly in the er right now with a serious head trauma, about to slip into a coma. no, the media bias is in favor of two things. money and sensationalism. the money is on the right, which is why the media repeated the lies about al gore lieing about the internet, love canal, and love story, while ignoring dubyas drug and alchohol problems, and conviction for drunk driving. yes, the supreme court of the time did. they were a group of extremists at that time, and that doesnt make it true. in fact, there have been 4, Countem FOUR rulings against that ruling since then. heres that little letter. everyone, pass it around, please. Dear Mr. President, Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law as described in the Bible. I have learned a great deal from you, and try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. For example, when someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination...end of debate. I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some other elements of God's Laws and how to follow them. 1. In Leviticus 25:44 it is stated that I may possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians? Though I know you understand why owning Mexicans is acceptable. 2. Also, I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her? Would Ebay be a viable option to get the highest bid for her? 3. Sadly, I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev.15: 19-24). The problem is how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense. 4. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev.1:9). The problem is, my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them or leave that to the U.S. army? 5. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself, or should I ask the police to do it? 6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination (Lev. 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this? Are there 'degrees' of abomination? 7. Lev.21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle-room here? 8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev.19:27. How should they die? 9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves? 10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev.19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them (Lev. 24:10-16)? Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair, like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws (Lev. 20:14)? I know you have studied these things extensively and thus enjoy considerable expertise in such matters, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging. And I am so relieved that you are back in office to continue smiting those who don't believe in our faith. Your blessed supporter, Joe America On Tue, 8 Feb 2005 11:26:52 -0600, thomas malloy wrote: > Given the questions raised by Ed Storms and Leaking Pen in > particular, I decided to answer them. > > Dear Ed; > > I'd like to make five challenges to you. These papers will give you > some insight into our beliefs, BTW, Prager, Satinover and Singer are > religious Jews. One, take the Dennis Prager Are you a Liberal? quiz, > www.dennisprager.com , two, read Is Liberalism a Brain Disease? which > you can link to from Dr. Jeffrey Satinover's website, > www.satinover.com , while you're there, take a look at his > credentials , three, listen to Roy Moore's speech, Is America a > Christian Nation? four, as Isaac B Singer said, consider a watch. The > watch implies a watchmaker. It's not only that the web of life is way > more complicated than the watch, two half worn out organisms can get > together and make a perfect little organism. It's called sexual > fusion, and if you think that the rest of the process is complicated, > AFLIK, it's the one of the few mechanisms I know of that reverses the > Second Law, and we have even less understanding of it than we do > about how the rest of the system works. Five, there is the 1890 > Supreme Court decision that I mention near the end of the post. > > Ed posted > > It is obvious that several contributors to Vortex hold very strong > opinions about the Christian religion. It is also obvious that such > opinions are shaping national policy in ways that are not beneficial > to the general population. We went to war based on the lie that Iraq > had WMD, the social security system is being changed based on several > lies, we send our work overseas based on the lie that this is good > for our economy, we now have the largest debt of any nation at any > time in history based on a lie that this does not matter, and now the > fundamental relationship between religion and government is being > changed based on a lie. I'm interested to know how people who > support the present government justify this approach and how this > tendency to lie squares with their understanding of the Christian > religion. If a person supports obvious lies, how can anything they > say be trusted? > > My response; > > I don't like much of what the Bush Administration is doing. With > regards to the WDM, there were two ships which left Iraq just before > the invasion. There was a convoy of trucks which went across the > Syrian boarder a short time later. There were Syrian Army bulldozers > waiting for them. They dug trenches and buried them. It doesn't take > an MBA to realize that's not business as usual. I heard both stories > on talk radio, other than that, I don't think that there in the > media. I'm going to have dinner with Hugh Hewitt, www.hughhewitt.com > on Thursday. I'm going to enjoy recounting this conversation with > him. Hugh is looking for educated Liberals like you, he likes to have > them call in to his radio program. > > We had no alternative but to vote for Bush, Senator Flip Flop's only > consistent position was for pro abortion. We regard the abortatoriums > as America's holocaust. As for the economy, what choice did W have? > He had to make the economy grow short term or he and the Republican > Party were history. > > Hugh and I think that Dean's election to the DNC Chair is just > hilarious, the lunatics have solidified their control of the asylum. > > As for your other questions, I cover them in the rest of the post. > > Later Leaking Pen Posted; > > ed, you've gone exactly where i was about too. the neo-cons currently > running our country don't believe in science. its a simple fact. but > it gets worse than that. if you've read some of the old documents from > PNAC, you'd know that the neo-con agenda is a rather simple one. they > are trying to actively bring about armageddon and the rapture. > > My response; > > Typical Leaking Pen nonsense. You've decided that because they > question some of your conclusions they don't believe in science, this > is a classic Leaking Pen nonsequitar. As for bringing on Armagedon, > what part of divinely ordained don't you understand? > > Ed Storms posted; > >and RC Macaulay responded: > > > >> > >> The reference article by Brooke Allen attached to Dr. Storms post > >>quotes Ben Franklin. > >> " as for Jesus of Nazareth.. is a question I do not > >>dogmatize upon, having never studied it > >> That is a most revealing statement. At least Franklin had the > >>wisdom to defer an opinion because he didn't know the subject. > > Of the men who presided over the writing of The Declaration of > Independence, and the Constitution, there were a few, less than five, > deists. The rest of them were what would today be called > Evangelicals. I find it very disingenuous for people take the beliefs > of that small group and draw the inference that America was not a > Christian country. > > > > >> What do people find that is offensive in Jesus teaching? No, not > >>what people say that Jesus taught.. BUT.. what Jesus taught.. His > >>words. > > > >I doubt that anyone rejects the words of Jesus. In any case, that > >is not the issue. The issue is the teachings of certain religious > >sects that have been created based on their understanding of the > >Bible. These sects are based on conclusions that are not > >universally accepted and are damaging to the general public when > >they are put into policy. > > There are 2000+ sects of Christianity. It never ceases to amaze me > how some of them twist Bible verses up like a pretzel in order to > justify their particular beliefs. Most Evangelicals, who start with > the premise that the Bible is the inerrorant word of G-d, have come > to similar conclusions to what I have. > > > > > >> I am a believer, I am a servant / follower of Jesus Christ. > >>I believe in the separation of church and state. I believe in > >>voluntary prayer in schools and in government. > >>I do not believe it should be mandated. > > > >If everyone had this approach, the problems would not exist. > > I disagree, the problem is Human Evil which grows out of our sinful > nature, which is why the World's condition continues to deteriorate. > This deterioration has been dramatically accelerated is the last 100+ > years because of the efforts of a group of people who are promoting > their religion, Secular Humanism. They took over the educational > system and began miss educating one generation after another. > > >> I cannot change anyones mind about their beliefs. I can tell you > >>what wonderful > >> > > Dr. Storms quotes a poorly written article in the " Nation" , an > >AP/CBS interest > > You have to understand Ed, that the main stream media is bias against > us. If you want to hear the other side of the argument, I'd like to > recommend that you listen to a speech given by Judge Roy Moore. I'll > arrange for you to listen to it if you want to. > > >Poorly written or not, a reading of any good history book shows that > >the founding fathers did not believe that Christianity should be the > >basis for the US government. > > Modern history books which were written by people who are suffering > from the brain disease of Liberalism. In 1890 the Supreme Court > issued a decision on the matter, after ten years of study, they > concluded that America was a Christian Nation. > > >The point of the article is that the Bush administration is giving > >the impression that this is a Christian nation in which the other > >religions are tolerated. Therefore, he feels free to impose policies > >that is based on what certain Christians believe. For example, that > >homosexuality is a sin, that life begins at conception, and that the > >Rapture is a real event. All of these beliefs are unique to certain > >Christian sects and not to religion in general, yet the beliefs are > >being supported with enthusiasm by the administration. > > That is the conclusion that most Evangelicals have reached. This > conclusion is based on studying the Bible starting with the premise > that it is the inerrorant word of G-d. > > >> Perhaps the greatest hindrance to the advancement of science is > >>the habit of lying to oneself, not to others. > > Yourself is the very worst person that you can lie to. ` > > >Perhaps, but eventually people who lie to themselves also lie to > >others. Also, two kinds of lying people exist. Some people lie > >because they can not help it. They base their view of reality on > >their unique understanding that is unmodified by experience. On the > >other hand, people lie for personal gain. These people know they are > >lying and are only intent on gaining power and advantage over other > >people. Politicians are noted for being this kind of liars. > > > >For those of you who think this thread has gone too far from an > >accepted subject for Vortex, let me propose that the attitude of > >government plays a significant role in the creation and solving of > >problems. Science can not do everything, especially when le who > >suggest that the system is broken? > > This thread has delved into Natural Philosophy which is the basis of science. > > > > >Perhaps answers to these questions can not be given. In which case, > >I apologize for the bother. > > > >Regards. > >Ed Storms > >> Richard > > It's been a marvelous chance to vent. > > -- "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 8 11:18:29 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j18JIEcT008041; Tue, 8 Feb 2005 11:18:14 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j18JIAIJ007993; Tue, 8 Feb 2005 11:18:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 11:18:10 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=OaJAebtiW+oKBSQvSWkx7sf7dQve0pguU4xzhwYjZf09mVG7mtrkfR1YvI5z5FuM; Message-ID: <410-2200522818540150 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: High Energy Electron Bombardment of LiD & LiH, Was.. Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 12:05:40 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9404df2803d01e8e121b6559eba6f8f94ce350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.162.71 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57605 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Horace Heffner wrote: > At 9:29 AM 2/8/5, Frederick Sparber wrote: >>Horace Heffner wrote: >> >>> >>> Energetically effective fusion created using electron beams I think is >>>or would be essentially >>> electron catalysed fusion. This requires a minimum beam intensity of >>> 1x10^19 electrons/(cm^2*s), >>> >>Commercially available Electron Beam Welders can put 3.10e-18 electrons >>per second >>into a weld piece with a 150 Kev - 0.4 millimeter diameter beam . >> >>> OK, so that's a beam intensity of (3x10^18 electrons/sec)/(Pi*(0.02cm)^2) = >>> 2.39x10^21 electrons/(cm^2*s), which is about 2000 times the minimum >> intensity, thus very good. The principle remaining problem is target >> vaporization and destruction of the confinement. It might be better to >> operate with a pulsed electron supply. > Actually 50 times the minimum is available with a 0.4 millimeter diameter beam from a 150 Kev beam at 0.1 amps continuous operation. > >>> >>> but I think improves with increased intensity. >>> Achieving a fast, dense, and high energy electron flux imposed on >>> inertially confined hydrogen might best be done using x-rays, however. >> > >>The problem with generating x-rays with electrons, is the low generation >>efficiency: > >>X-ray yield (%) = 1.216e-7 * Z * Volts (about 1% efficiency for >>tungsten, Z = 74) > > I don't understand this. If the source is 1.216x10^8 volts the efficiency > is 740 percent? The above only applies in some range? 1.216e-7 * 74 * 150,000 volts = 1.35 % . Yes, it is an old Bragg formula range-limited. At 6.0 Mev tungsten is about 54 % efficient . Lithium (Z = 3) is about 0.055% efficient at 150 Kev, which is good. :-) > >>Also collimating them is a bit of a problem as they are finding out with >>laser-generated x-rays. >Yes. In a lab x-rays can be focused by refraction using lenses made out of >pitch, etc., or by use of reflection at high incidence off the inside of > lots of small metal tubes. Parabolic reflection might be inefficient to > impossible depending on energy. > >>At these energies the x-rays undergo the Compton (Scattering) Effect >>giving up to 1/3 their >>energy to the electrons (about 60 Kev max.with 200 Kev x-ray photons). > > > Yes, so with efficiency factors of 0.01 for x-ray generation and .33 for > momentum exchange we get down to a net factor 0.0033, which is not > insurmountable in pulsed mode. > > So, a pulse generator is needed that is > much more than 100 times the current and which is also about 3 times the > voltage of the electron welder, but only briefly. Cooling pulsed x-ray > tubes is less difficult than continuous duty tubes. > The 150 - 200 Kev 1/2amp e-beam welders will run continuously the filament and beam focusing is the the only heat energy input requirement. Plus the vacuum pumps for differential pumping against the LiH-LiD capsule lithium-gas leakage. At 688 C the vapor pressure of LiH is less than 50 Torr. > >The target could a multi-layer target, consisting of, for example, an outer > jacket of x-ray transparent confinement material with highest Z possible, > an LiD-LiT mixture, mixed with an x-ray reflecting/dispersing powder, a > high-z confinement jacket, and an LiD-LiT core? > At 2850 Joule per gram heat of fusion of LiH at it's 688 deg C melting point, a 250 gram capsule of LiH-LiD (~ 7.95 grams/mole) "heat-sinked" with liquid metal heat pipes for energy extraction,should handle the required 15 Kw-thermal input and the 5 X input (75 Kw Thermal) output. > Snip > > Regards, > Horace Heffner Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

Horace Heffner wrote:
 
> At 9:29 AM 2/8/5, Frederick Sparber wrote:
>>Horace Heffner wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Energetically effective fusion created using electron beams I think is
>>>or would be essentially
>>> electron catalysed fusion.  This requires a minimum beam intensity of
>>> 1x10^19 electrons/(cm^2*s),
>>>
>>Commercially available Electron Beam Welders can put 3.10e-18 electrons
>>per second
>>into a weld piece with  a 150 Kev - 0.4 millimeter diameter beam .
>>
>>> OK, so that's a beam intensity of (3x10^18 electrons/sec)/(Pi*(0.02cm)^2) =
>>> 2.39x10^21 electrons/(cm^2*s), which is about 2000 times the minimum
>> intensity, thus very good.  The principle remaining problem is target
>> vaporization and destruction of the confinement.  It might be better to
>> operate with a pulsed electron supply.
>
Actually 50 times the minimum is available with a 0.4 millimeter diameter beam
from a 150 Kev beam at 0.1 amps continuous operation.
>
>>>
>>> but I think improves with increased intensity.
>>> Achieving a fast, dense, and high energy electron flux imposed on
>>> inertially confined hydrogen might best be done using x-rays, however.
>>
>
>>The problem with generating x-rays with electrons, is the low generation
>>efficiency:
>
>>X-ray yield (%) = 1.216e-7 * Z * Volts     (about 1% efficiency for
>>tungsten, Z = 74)
>
> I don't understand this.  If the source is 1.216x10^8 volts the efficiency
> is 740 percent? The above only applies in some range?
 
1.216e-7 * 74 * 150,000 volts = 1.35 % . Yes,  it is an old Bragg formula range-limited.
At 6.0 Mev tungsten is about 54 % efficient .
 
Lithium (Z = 3) is about 0.055%  efficient at 150 Kev, which is good. :-)
>
>>Also collimating them is a bit of a problem as they are finding out with
>>laser-generated x-rays.

>Yes.  In a lab x-rays can be focused by refraction using lenses made out of
>pitch, etc., or by use of reflection at high incidence off the inside of
> lots of small metal tubes.  Parabolic reflection might be inefficient to
> impossible depending on energy.

>
>>At these energies the x-rays undergo the Compton (Scattering) Effect
>>giving up to 1/3 their
>>energy to the electrons (about 60 Kev max.with  200 Kev x-ray photons).
>
>
> Yes, so with efficiency factors of 0.01 for x-ray generation and .33 for
> momentum exchange we get down to a net factor 0.0033, which is not
> insurmountable in pulsed mode. 
>
> So, a pulse generator is needed that is
> much more than 100 times the current and which is also about 3 times the
> voltage of the electron welder, but only briefly.   Cooling pulsed x-ray
> tubes is less difficult than continuous duty tubes.
>
The 150 - 200 Kev 1/2amp e-beam welders will run continuously the
filament and beam focusing is the the only heat energy input requirement.
Plus the vacuum pumps for differential pumping against the LiH-LiD capsule
lithium-gas leakage. At 688 C the vapor pressure of LiH is less than 50 Torr.
>
>The target could a multi-layer target, consisting of, for example, an outer
> jacket of x-ray transparent confinement material with highest Z possible,
> an LiD-LiT mixture, mixed with an x-ray reflecting/dispersing powder, a
> high-z confinement jacket, and an LiD-LiT core? 
>
At 2850 Joule per gram heat of fusion of LiH at it's 688 deg C melting point,
a 250 gram capsule of LiH-LiD (~ 7.95 grams/mole) "heat-sinked" with liquid metal heat pipes
for energy extraction,should handle the required 15 Kw-thermal input  and the 5 X input (75 Kw Thermal) output.
>
Snip
>
> Regards,

> Horace Heffner
 
Frederick
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 8 11:31:55 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j18JVTcT016007; Tue, 8 Feb 2005 11:31:30 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j18JVIjm015923; Tue, 8 Feb 2005 11:31:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 11:31:18 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001001c50e14$bac53bb0$b6017841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re:Role of God in Government Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 13:31:03 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000C_01C50DE2.6FA76AE0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-99.8 required=4.0 tests=HTML_50_60,HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57606 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C50DE2.6FA76AE0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000D_01C50DE2.6FA76AE0" ------=_NextPart_001_000D_01C50DE2.6FA76AE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankAll's fair in love and war ,its said. Now the lovin is over, lets get back to war. We have chewed that ole bone bare. ( grin) As the scripture says.. to those that believe,, its true.. to those that = dont..its not Richard ------=_NextPart_001_000D_01C50DE2.6FA76AE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
All's fair in love and war ,its = said.
 
Now the lovin is over, lets get back to=20 war.
 
We have chewed that ole bone bare. ( = grin)
 
As the scripture says.. to those that = believe,, its=20 true.. to those that dont..its not
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_000D_01C50DE2.6FA76AE0-- ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C50DE2.6FA76AE0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000b01c50e14$ba405440$b6017841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C50DE2.6FA76AE0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 8 11:49:52 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j18JnXcT026172; Tue, 8 Feb 2005 11:49:37 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j18JnVeT026148; Tue, 8 Feb 2005 11:49:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 11:49:31 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <3k70ii$mouc5c mxip18a.cluster1.charter.net> X-Ironport-AV: i="3.88,187,1102309200"; d="scan'208"; a="764358828:sNHT14087424" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.12 (webedge20-101-197-20030912) From: To: CC: Subject: 2nd law and an Act of God Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 19:49:23 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57607 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: A statement was recently posted in Vortex that conception is an example of the Second Law of Thermodynamics being reversed. This claim, however, does not take into consideration all the external energy, such as in the form of nutrients, expended to transform the tiny zygote into a full term birth. This is not to take away from the fact that I still consider the overall process a miracle, as well as one of my favorite extracurricular activities. Wanna generate some entropy tonight, hon? Wandering off topic here, I have always found it interesting that a huge percentage of conceptions are naturally aborted. These natural abortions are an Act of God. I don't have the actual figures but I believe the natural abortion rate is around 40 - 50 percent depending on the circumstances. I have always found it a little odd that those who never question the action of God will, never the less, quickly condemn the motivations of anyone with a less exalted status should they personally chose to execute the same action for which God personally performs on a regular basis. Yes, Yes, I know. One must never question the Personal Actions of God. Or at least not too closely. But then, perhaps it really isn't God's fault since all this activity is occurring within the reproductive system of a woman. Doesn't SOMEONE need to be held accountable for all these aborted lives? Perhaps it should be decreed that all zygotes that don't implant themselves in a woman's uterus should be considered wrongful deaths. Women carrying the offending uteruses should be charged with some form of negligent manslaughter. To enforce fairness and uniformity of the law all used tampons will be hens forth government issued, and immediately after use collected and processed for evidence of aborted clumps of embryonic tissue. The guilty parties will be penalized. Perhaps sentences of mandatory work performed at prison wages would be sufficient. I'm sure congress would be able to assign many necessary jobs that these negligent baby killers could perform, and simultaneously help out our economy by keeping prices at Wall-Mart down. Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 8 14:44:06 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j18MhscT006711; Tue, 8 Feb 2005 14:43:58 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j18MhfBR006630; Tue, 8 Feb 2005 14:43:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 14:43:41 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20050208224333.74552.qmail web81105.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 14:43:33 -0800 (PST) From: Jones Beene Subject: Harvesting the Sun... on the cheap To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57608 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hindsight is 20/20 as they say. I hope the lab execs at Sandia do not have to find that out the hard way... if it turns out that they dropped funding on a particularly promising project... or if some ploy was involved to keep Sam out of the IP picture. The "Sunflower" solar-mirror story mentined in FSB (in another post today) brings an enabling technology to mind (not mentioned in that story) which even dispenses with the need for solar cells, per se. It involves both conversion of heat to electricity and the violation of Plank's Law of blackbody radiation. That's right, the violation of Plank's Law of blackbody radiation. Yet, does anyone on vortex remember the photolattice? Why it raised so little curiosity at the time is a huge mystery. Did it slip though the lattice If Plank got a Nobel for discovering an over-reaching law, shouldn't the iconoclasts get at least some tiny bit of recognition? Looking back over files and scientific announcements relevant to LENR, solar energy and/or greatly increased efficiency in energy-conversion over the last few years - this one keeps recurring in importance: For one thing - because it could fit into so many other schemes - particularly thermal solar conversion or LENR heat conversion. Solar thermal is the easiest of all forms of "free" energy to harvest (with mirrors) and a factor of 10-50 times less costly than using solar cells - but all you normally get for the low cost is day-time heat - not electricity, and not particularly high-grade heat at that. What the photolattice does is to convert low grade heat into coherent IR light, and very efficiently. "Coherency" is the key to efficiency. When trying to rate a wide range of "enabling technologies" in terms of unrealized "potential," the newsbyte that seems now to have had the greatest easily-realizable "potential," to a wide swath of alternative energy research could be this technology of the "photolattice" but has the technology now gone stagnant? I wish someone at Sandia or Stanford could answer that one. Here is the reference: "A Novel Photolattice with Extraordinary Properties" By Neil Savage http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/WEBONLY/wonews/oct03/1003phot.html "A device from Sandia emits infrared radiation at a fixed wavelength and with a conversion efficiency that appears to defy Planck’s law" Notice how the editors downplay the part about Planck’s law - don't want to offend anyone, right? Eventually, the high-priests of the physics establisment will also find a way to save-face on this Law, of course, just as with the soon-to-be-demolished 2nd Law. N. Savage is not so diplomatic in the story: "15 October 2003—A microscopic device built by researchers at Sandia National Laboratory (Albuquerque, N.M.) could lead to better photovoltaic cells, more efficient light bulbs, and the rewriting of basic physics texts." Researchers Shawn Lin and James Fleming built a photonic lattice that emits infrared radiation only at a specific wavelength. The lattice is a type of photonic band gap crystal, in which a regular structure at the scale of microns or nanometers allows light to exist only at specific wavelengths.... With the same photolithographic methods used to manufacture computer chips, the scientists inscribed the structure they wanted in silicon. They then filled the gaps with tungsten, the same material that makes light bulb filaments, and etched away the silicon, leaving a three-dimensional waffle of tungsten rods, piled in a crisscrossing log cabin style. The size and spacing of the rods, half a micron thick and spaced 1.5 µ m apart, force the photons passing between them to fit into particular wavelengths. [OK they used the expensive technique of photolithography to discover and document the process, but that does not mean that bulk process cannot be adapted to manufacture it] When Lin and Fleming heated the device in a vacuum to 1250 °C, the typical operating temperature of a thermal photovoltaic (PV) cell, they saw a sharp emission peak at 1.5 µ m. They calculated that the peak would translate into an optical-to-electrical conversion efficiency in a PV cell of approximately 34 percent and an electrical power output of about 14 W/cm2. That’s far greater than the 11 percent efficiency and 3 W/cm2 output predicted by Max Planck’s Law of Blackbody Cavity Radiation. END Yes and at least one expert who commented on this back then says that 34% - which is much better than an auto engine, for instance, is an understatement. There is no reason why coherent radiation should not convert at double that... yet... Did this great unrelaized potential fall under the Sandia budget axe, or what about the photonics group at Stanford ( i.e. the "Fan club)? Maybe they are just slyly waiting to try to get it into the hands of free enterprise and out of government IP control. Who knows? Enquiring minds do want to know...BTW I have written Dr. Fan for an update, but I am not really expecting to get past his Spam filter... Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 8 15:00:26 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j18N07cT012670; Tue, 8 Feb 2005 15:00:07 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j18MxxQt012599; Tue, 8 Feb 2005 14:59:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 14:59:59 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: Message-ID: <003301c50e31$e10d78b0$a256ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <20050208224333.74552.qmail web81105.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Harvesting the Sun... on the cheap Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 17:59:33 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57609 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones wrote about collecting sunlight with mirrors and a device that when heated emitted coherent IR light, whihc could be converted to electricity by a PV cell with good efficiency. The caveats: You have to look at the whole system costs and maintenance. Solar concentrators are old stuff, they pour lots of light onto chips, making good use of their efficiency and cost. The mirrors have to be solar trackers with attendant system costs and have to be kept clean. There are clever afocal concentrator designs which do not have to be tracked and have good collection efficiencies, but they are cup-like and could fill with dust, sand, snow. There is no simple tradeoff if you want to collect lots of energy, not just niche applications. This is not simple. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 8 15:08:45 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j18N8KcT016171; Tue, 8 Feb 2005 15:08:20 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j18N8Hm6016153; Tue, 8 Feb 2005 15:08:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 15:08:17 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 14:17:48 -0900 To: fjsparber earthlink.net, "vortex-l" From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: High Energy Electron Bombardment of LiD & LiH, Was.. Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57610 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:05 PM 2/8/5, Frederick Sparber wrote: >Actually 50 times the minimum is available with a 0.4 millimeter diameter beam >from a 150 Kev beam at 0.1 amps continuous operation. Yep, using your 0.1 amps instead of your 3.10e18 electrons per second I get 6.24x10^17 electrons/sec. So: (6.24x10^17 electrons/sec)/(Pi*(0.02cm)^2) = 4.97x10^20 electrons/(cm^2*s), which is indeed about 50 times the minimum. If what you suggest, the continuous mode, actually works, it would be a very good thing. If yield does increase in proportion to beam intensity (not an established fact in this case, only a possibility suggested by Kamada's experiments) it still strikes me as better to run in a pulsed mode, even if it is a fast cycled pulsed mode, which in practical effect would appear to be continuous operation. If your continuous operation approach does not work, and confinement time and/or pressure are important variables to net yield, then breaching at least an outermost confinement barrier with x-rays still seems to be an approach worth developing. The main problem with the pulsed x-ray confinement approach I think is that the remnants of the confinement structure become neutron radiated ejecta. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 8 16:57:08 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j190ulcT001906; Tue, 8 Feb 2005 16:56:47 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j190ugs7001837; Tue, 8 Feb 2005 16:56:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 16:56:42 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000e01c50e42$31c01730$a7037841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re:2nd law and... Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 18:56:30 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000A_01C50E0F.E65D7530"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-99.8 required=4.0 tests=HTML_50_60,HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57611 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C50E0F.E65D7530 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000B_01C50E0F.E65EFBD0" ------=_NextPart_001_000B_01C50E0F.E65EFBD0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankHey Steven, reread the biography posted on your website that reads = ..=20 "the repilian portions of my bran to thrash about" I presume this event occurs occasionally by the nature and content of = your post. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_000B_01C50E0F.E65EFBD0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Hey Steven,  reread the biography = posted on=20 your website that reads ..
 
"the repilian portions of my bran to = thrash=20 about"
 
I presume this event occurs occasionally by = the nature=20 and content of your post.
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_000B_01C50E0F.E65EFBD0-- ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C50E0F.E65D7530 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000901c50e42$30e101d0$a7037841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C50E0F.E65D7530-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 8 17:10:34 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1919scT010758; Tue, 8 Feb 2005 17:09:55 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1919fIa010603; Tue, 8 Feb 2005 17:09:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 17:09:41 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type; b=GTTkFOva5y0y+bi42oEiK3Dn7VyKGLiaA2SSHr9ChhT9zJedOmsw4+3NS4Jcj7I7; Message-ID: <410-22005239097880 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)" , "vortex-l" Subject: Re: High Energy Electron Bombardment of LiD & LiH, Was.. Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 18:09:07 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940123adce4782bf2342c56835e0f4bb4c7350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.159.239 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57612 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: > > Yep, using your 0.1 amps instead of your 3.10e18 electrons per second I get > 6.24x10^17 electrons/sec. So: (6.24x10^17 electrons/sec)/(Pi*(0.02cm)^2) = > 4.97x10^20 electrons/(cm^2*s), which is indeed about 50 times the minimum. > > If your continuous operation approach does not work, and confinement time and/or pressure are important > variables to net yield, then breaching at least an outermost confinement > barrier with x-rays still seems to be an approach worth developing. > Take a look at the Sandia "Z Machine" experiment http://www.sandia.gov/news-center/news-releases/2003/nuclear-power/Zneutrons .html "The action takes place within a container the size of a pencil eraser, called a hohlraum, at the center of the Z machine, itself a circular device about 120 feet in diameter." Other: "IN SANDIA'S "Z" MACHINE millions of amps of current are passed through a tiny spool of tungsten wires, producing a flood of x rays. Essentially the most powerful terrestrial producer of x rays, the Z device recently achieved the following milestones during a test shot: temperatures of 1.8 million K, a power output of 290 terawatts, and an energy release of 2.0 megajoules. The researchers believe nuclear fusion could be attained inside the device (by bombarding a fuel pellet with x rays) if the conditions were pushed further, to temperatures of 3.5 million K and power levels of 1000 terawatts." > > The main problem with the pulsed x-ray confinement approach I think is that the > remnants of the confinement structure become neutron radiated ejecta. > I think the main problem is that it doesn't work. :-) The ~1/2 liter capsule of LiH-LiD (with dispersed, or a wall of Boron-10 for neutron burning) can sit below the E-Beam gun in a pool of Mercury in a vessel that has a gravity-return heat pipe "chimney" (water boiler heat load to 360 C), Or a pool of Potassium or Lithium heat pipe fluids that are good for a closed cycle Stirling Engines or Gas Turbines. Frederick > > Regards, > > Horace Heffner > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 8 17:12:09 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j191BgcT012175; Tue, 8 Feb 2005 17:11:42 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j191BDH5011793; Tue, 8 Feb 2005 17:11:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 17:11:13 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Ironport-AV: i="3.88,187,1102309200"; d="scan'208"; a="792317719:sNHT12843474" From: "Steven Vincent Johnson" To: Cc: Subject: RE: 2nd law and... Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 19:10:40 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <000e01c50e42$31c01730$a7037841 xptower> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57613 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Rich, >From: RC Macaulay >Subject: Re:2nd law and... > >Hey Steven, reread the biography posted on your website that reads .. > >"the repilian portions of my bran to thrash about" > >I presume this event occurs occasionally by the nature and content of your post. > >Richard The precise wording was: "The reptilian portions of my bran began to thrash about." I got "reptilian" correct, but yes "bran" was a type-o, no thanks to FrontPage's spell checker. It has since been fixed. Thank you for bringing this anomaly to my attention! :-) See: http://orionworks.com/artgal/dpc/info_dpc_bio_f.htm Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 8 17:19:23 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j191J13G016413; Tue, 8 Feb 2005 17:19:02 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j191Iwmr016396; Tue, 8 Feb 2005 17:18:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 17:18:58 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001f01c50e45$513a1360$a7037841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: Harvesting the sun... Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 19:18:52 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001B_01C50E13.0626F0F0"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-99.5 required=4.0 tests=HTML_40_50,HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57614 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C50E13.0626F0F0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_001C_01C50E13.0626F0F0" ------=_NextPart_001_001C_01C50E13.0626F0F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankJones, I totally missed that 2003 report out of Sandia Labs. = Perhaps that fits with a hunch I've had regarding Global Crossing and certain of their " intellectual properties" in the = basket that went to Hutchinson-Wampea, a Chinese government entity. My last trip to Alburquerque, N.M. was back awhile, then Sandia was an = entity of AT&T operated on behalf of the Fed. Hmm. With SBC gobbling up AT&T,, wonder what the coming changes look = like? Los Alamos remains under the UC wing but UT-Austin wants a dance = sooo bad. Maybe W has been asked to mark the dance card? Richard ------=_NextPart_001_001C_01C50E13.0626F0F0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Jones, I totally missed that 2003 report = out=20 of Sandia Labs. Perhaps that fits with a hunch I've had=20 regarding
Global Crossing and certain of their " = intellectual=20 properties" in the basket that went to Hutchinson-Wampea, a Chinese = government=20 entity.
 
 
My last trip to Alburquerque, N.M. was back = awhile, then=20 Sandia was an entity of AT&T operated on behalf of the = Fed.
 
Hmm. With SBC gobbling up AT&T,, wonder = what the=20 coming changes look like?   Los Alamos remains under the UC = wing but=20 UT-Austin wants a dance sooo bad. Maybe W has been asked to mark the = dance=20 card?
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_001C_01C50E13.0626F0F0-- ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C50E13.0626F0F0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <001a01c50e45$50bfda50$a7037841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C50E13.0626F0F0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 8 17:57:46 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j191vS3G004093; Tue, 8 Feb 2005 17:57:29 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j191vPlB004061; Tue, 8 Feb 2005 17:57:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 17:57:25 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 17:06:56 -0900 To: "vortex-l" From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: High Energy Electron Bombardment of LiD & LiH, Was.. Resent-Message-ID: <4F3T0D.A.Y_.E4WCCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57615 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 6:09 PM 2/8/5, Frederick Sparber wrote: >"IN SANDIA'S "Z" MACHINE millions of amps of current are passed through a >tiny spool of tungsten wires, producing a flood of x rays. Essentially the >most powerful terrestrial producer of x rays, the Z device recently >achieved the following milestones during a test shot: temperatures of 1.8 >million K, a power output of 290 terawatts, and an energy release of 2.0 >megajoules. The researchers believe nuclear fusion could be attained inside >the device (by bombarding a fuel pellet with x rays) if the conditions were >pushed further, to temperatures of 3.5 million K and power levels of 1000 >terawatts." >> >> The main problem with the pulsed x-ray confinement approach I think is >that the >> remnants of the confinement structure become neutron radiated ejecta. >> >I think the main problem is that it doesn't work. :-) This conclusion does not follow from the above. The proposed fuel pellet is con-confined. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 8 18:54:48 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j192sN3G001594; Tue, 8 Feb 2005 18:54:24 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j192sH0u001477; Tue, 8 Feb 2005 18:54:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 18:54:17 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type; b=SLLJ6FLes2QX8L7uEoEDWSM8yTfk+etO7bqFC8QwoQ8JCH8VHvdNmk6uBtbFKAhL; Message-ID: <410-22005239153290 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: High Energy Electron Bombardment of LiD & LiH, Was.. Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 19:53:29 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9408228ac129fc2e17e4748d6395d8b93fd350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.162.18 Resent-Message-ID: <5NkaVB.A.8W.YtXCCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57616 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > [Original Message] > From: > To: vortex-l > Date: 2/8/05 7:57:28 PM > Subject: Re: High Energy Electron Bombardment of LiD & LiH, Was.. > > At 6:09 PM 2/8/5, Frederick Sparber wrote: > > >"IN SANDIA'S "Z" MACHINE millions of amps of current are passed through a > >tiny spool of tungsten wires, producing a flood of x rays. Essentially the > >most powerful terrestrial producer of x rays, the Z device recently > >achieved the following milestones during a test shot: temperatures of 1.8 > >million K, a power output of 290 terawatts, and an energy release of 2.0 > >megajoules. The researchers believe nuclear fusion could be attained inside > >the device (by bombarding a fuel pellet with x rays) if the conditions were > >pushed further, to temperatures of 3.5 million K and power levels of 1000 > >terawatts." > >> > >> The main problem with the pulsed x-ray confinement approach I think is > >that the > >> remnants of the confinement structure become neutron radiated ejecta. > >> > >I think the main problem is that it doesn't work. :-) > > > This conclusion does not follow from the above. The proposed fuel pellet > is con-confined. > A trillion watts input for a microsecond is a megajoule. I think after 25 years of failure the perpetrators is this overpriced flop should be con- confined. :-) Signing off the list. Frederick > Regards, > > Horace Heffner > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 9 01:16:02 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j199FjID004143; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 01:15:49 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j199FhkH004125; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 01:15:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 01:15:43 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050209091224.006b5e88 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 09:12:24 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Harvesting the Sun... on the cheap Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j199FaID004093 Resent-Message-ID: <1EvxLB.A.ZAB.-SdCCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57617 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Very interesting Jones. 8-) As far as the 2nd Law is concerned it's always struck me that to show it's wrong is a no-brainer. All one needs is a chess board and a concept of scale. In the classic case of the steam engine where disorder on the micro-scale is increased, people totally forget that order on the macro-scale is increased. They ignore the fact that the engine has taken Sir Joseph Porter, together with his Sisters, his Cousins, his Aunts down to H.M.S.Pinafore at Portsmouth. In short they have a thoroughly blinkered view of order. The concentrate on the fact that the glass is half empty and fail to see that it is also half full. Cheers, Grimer At 02:43 pm 08-02-05 -0800, Jones wrote wrote: >Hindsight is 20/20 as they say. I hope the lab execs >at Sandia do not have to find that out the hard way... >if it turns out that they dropped funding on a >particularly promising project... or if some ploy was >involved to keep Sam out of the IP picture. > >The "Sunflower" solar-mirror story mentined in FSB (in >another post today) brings an enabling technology to >mind (not mentioned in that story) which even >dispenses with the need for solar cells, per se. > >It involves both conversion of heat to electricity and >the violation of Plank's Law of blackbody radiation. >That's right, the violation of Plank's Law of >blackbody radiation. Yet, does anyone on vortex >remember the photolattice? Why it raised so little >curiosity at the time is a huge mystery. Did it slip >though the lattice If Plank got a Nobel for >discovering an over-reaching law, shouldn't the >iconoclasts get at least some tiny bit of recognition? > >Looking back over files and scientific announcements >relevant to LENR, solar energy and/or greatly >increased efficiency in energy-conversion over the >last few years - this one keeps recurring in >importance: For one thing - because it could fit into >so many other schemes - particularly thermal solar >conversion or LENR heat conversion. Solar thermal is >the easiest of all forms of "free" energy to harvest >(with mirrors) and a factor of 10-50 times less costly >than using solar cells - but all you normally get for >the low cost is day-time heat - not electricity, and >not particularly high-grade heat at that. > >What the photolattice does is to convert low grade >heat into coherent IR light, and very efficiently. >"Coherency" is the key to efficiency. > >When trying to rate a wide range of "enabling >technologies" in terms of unrealized "potential," the >newsbyte that seems now to have had the greatest >easily-realizable "potential," to a wide swath of >alternative energy research could be this technology >of the "photolattice" but has the technology now gone >stagnant? I wish someone at Sandia or Stanford could >answer that one. Here is the reference: > >"A Novel Photolattice with Extraordinary Properties" >By Neil Savage > >http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/WEBONLY/wonews/oct03/1003phot.html > >"A device from Sandia emits infrared radiation at a >fixed wavelength and with a conversion efficiency that >appears to defy Planck’s law" > >Notice how the editors downplay the part about >Planck’s law - don't want to offend anyone, right? >Eventually, the high-priests of the physics >establisment will also find a way to save-face on this >Law, of course, just as with the soon-to-be-demolished >2nd Law. > >N. Savage is not so diplomatic in the story: > >"15 October 2003—A microscopic device built by >researchers at Sandia National Laboratory >(Albuquerque, N.M.) could lead to better photovoltaic >cells, more efficient light bulbs, and the rewriting >of basic physics texts." > >Researchers Shawn Lin and James Fleming built a >photonic lattice that emits infrared radiation only >at a specific wavelength. The lattice is a type of >photonic band gap crystal, in which a regular >structure at the scale of microns or nanometers >allows light to exist only at specific wavelengths.... > >With the same photolithographic methods used to >manufacture computer chips, the scientists inscribed >the structure they wanted in silicon. They then >filled the gaps with tungsten, the same material that >makes light bulb filaments, and etched away the >silicon, leaving a three-dimensional waffle of >tungsten rods, piled in a crisscrossing log cabin >style. The size and spacing of the rods, half a micron > thick and spaced 1.5 µ m apart, force the photons >passing between them to fit into particular >wavelengths. > >[OK they used the expensive technique of >photolithography to discover and document the process, >but that does not mean that bulk process cannot be >adapted to manufacture it] > >When Lin and Fleming heated the device in a vacuum to >1250 °C, the typical operating temperature of a >thermal photovoltaic (PV) cell, they saw a sharp >emission peak at 1.5 µ m. They calculated that the >peak would translate into an optical-to-electrical >conversion efficiency in a PV cell of approximately 34 > percent and an electrical power output of about 14 >W/cm2. That’s far greater than the 11 percent >efficiency and 3 W/cm2 output predicted by Max >Planck’s Law of Blackbody Cavity Radiation. > >END > >Yes and at least one expert who commented on this back >then says that 34% - which is much better than an >auto engine, for instance, is an understatement. There >is no reason why coherent radiation should not convert >at double that... yet... > >Did this great unrelaized potential fall under the >Sandia budget axe, or what about the photonics group >at Stanford ( i.e. the "Fan club)? Maybe they are just >slyly waiting to try to get it into the hands of free >enterprise and out of government IP control. Who >knows? > >Enquiring minds do want to know...BTW I have written >Dr. Fan for an update, but I am not really expecting >to get past his Spam filter... > >Jones > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 9 08:21:09 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j19GL2ID032385; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 08:21:02 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j19GKoAv032299; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 08:20:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 08:20:50 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050209111943.029a4780 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 11:20:34 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Suppressed science web site Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <5gXfGC.A.j4H.hhjCCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57618 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: See: http://www.suppressedscience.net/ http://www.suppressedscience.net/physics.html From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 9 09:25:41 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j19HP8gl003082; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 09:25:09 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j19HP4VW003040; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 09:25:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 09:25:04 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20050209172450.61806.qmail web81109.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 09:24:50 -0800 (PST) From: Jones Beene Subject: noovoodoo economics To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <6PQGa.A.Zv.vdkCCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57619 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Somewhere amidst the cognitive dissonance of world events, the recent announcement by OPEC that they intended to force oil to stabilize at $50, and NOT a whimper of protest from the USA was kind of missed by many pundits, in all the ferment of world events. Not that many months ago, we had protested vigorously at $20 and similar OPEC vows. Why are we seeming to acquiesce now, and with record deficits forecast? Answer: noovoodoo Hmmm. And does it have anything to do with recent allegations that the US, with the tacit support of Kuwait, has opened up secret oil fields in Southern Iraq through Kuwait ? and are now pumping two to three times more oil than is claimed "on the books" - and helping to finance the war to a degree that way? After all, with the deficits racked up in the past four years, the dollar should be worth pennies next to the Euro, and one can only suspect that it is being propped up by some hidden force. The voodoo part is pretty obvious. Gasoline is still about $2 in California and the wholesale price dropped significantly AFTER the OPEC announcement. Traditionally the wholesale price is 35% of the selling price with most of the rest going to Fed/State/County/City taxes bribes and assorted payoffs, along with chump-change for the dealer. At $50 per 42 gallon barrel for crude, gasoline at the pump "should" cost at least as $3.50-3.75 now but it is still at $2; and yes, it does cost over $5 in Europe now, and probably will here as well... as soon as the political climate permits it. Bush doesn't want a civil war at home in places like California, who generally hate his administration with an visceral intensity that other parts of the country do not even begin to understand. This is a state that can elect Reagan and Swartznegger, and really any decent person - especially if they have charisma, humor, character and intelligence... but cannot tolerate high-level greed... at least not without the other three in excess. California is closer to actaul "seccession" than most Easterners realize http://tinyurl.com/67dzy ...and civil disobedience will happen here with with absolute certainty with $5 gasoline, at least until DC gets the troops back home to maintain order. He can then let the price rise in 2008 to as far above $5 at the pump as possible, and at the same time try to make it look like it is the Dem/wits fault. And it probably will be... for not trying harder to get him out of office. But I have to admire his moxie with this noovoodoo plan. It is brilliantly concieved. One can only suspect that the brains behind it truly have the initials "DC" but are not located anywhere near Capitol Hill. We are claiming to the world "officially" that Iraqi production is about 2 million BBD or about $35 billion per year at the new higher price... yet at OPEC they openly laught at that assertion. OTOH compare that reality with the fact we have already spent, according to real estimates about $500 billion on the war (only half of it out-of-pocket and that is the difference between estimates). Is there a payback to recoup most of this, through the noovoodoo scheme of DC? Yup. It looks that way. Way to go, Dick. If the contested fields are really pumping - you remember the fileds in South Iraq bordering Kuwait, which Saddam coveted for decades, and was a big part of his motivation for the Kuwait invasion - because they hold more oil than all of Kuwait; and as some OPEC ministers have confided to reportes - that Halliburton is now pumping secretly through the new pipeline an estimated 2-2.5 BBD... yes, the sand-storm is clearing and now, and it is becomming clear WHY we did not officiall protest the OPEC cartel's new higher oil price. This off-the-book oil goes to Europe anyway. The logic is that they have not paid for our invasion, and cannot do so politically, though we are all "in the same boat together" - ERGO, they should be made to pay the "new" artificial price through market manipulation... ...sounds logical to me, and yes, there are many any claim that even the older "voodoo model" worked in the long run. Three of fours years of this and Europe has effectively paid its fair share. It does not hurt that the Hubbert curve, ect makes it "look like" oil has nearly peaked, but even if it has, the $50 price was "too much, too soon" for normal market moves even in a partially free-market that is dominated by US interests, even if those "interests" are wearing abayas and shailas in front of the Arab press... Most of them were educated here anyway, know economics better than most CPas, and have mansions and bank accounts in the US and Europe... just in case... Remember these haunting words from a man who even managed to "beat the hangman": "Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country." -- Hermann Goering, After being sentenced to death at the Nuremberg trials, and also seen on a framed and signed autograph in DCs former office at Hallibuton in calmer times... long before getting interested in politics, of course. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 9 10:18:25 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j19IHscg032055; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 10:17:55 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j19IHlTm032008; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 10:17:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 10:17:47 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [64.174.37.158] X-Originating-Email: [mgoldes msn.com] X-Sender: mgoldes msn.com In-Reply-To: <20050209172450.61806.qmail web81109.mail.yahoo.com> From: "Mark Goldes" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: oil and gas and alternative energy economics Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 10:13:30 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Feb 2005 18:14:02.0627 (UTC) FILETIME=[224CBD30:01C50ED3] Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57620 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones, Perhaps the best overview of oil and gas prices and availability can be found in the speeches and presentations by Matthew Simmons, the CEO of Simmons Co. International, a large investment bank until now serving the conventional energy industry. The website is: http://www.simmonsco-intl.com/ Matt Simmons is very worried about oil and gas supply and is extremely well informed concerning the resource availability. He is probably a long-time friend of DC and Bush. However, unlike them, he believes every alternative needs to be explored in depth on a crash basis. In his most recent talks he has stressed the need to find alternatives...fast. He is not very open to LENR or ZPE, but is clearly watching all of the mosre conventional alternatives and does not believe them to be adequate. Mark >From: Jones Beene >Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com >To: vortex-l eskimo.com >Subject: noovoodoo economics >Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 09:24:50 -0800 (PST) > >Somewhere amidst the cognitive dissonance of world >events, the recent announcement by OPEC that they >intended to force oil to stabilize at $50, and NOT a >whimper of protest from the USA was kind of missed by >many pundits, in all the ferment of world events. > >Not that many months ago, we had protested vigorously >at $20 and similar OPEC vows. Why are we seeming to >acquiesce now, and with record deficits forecast? > >Answer: noovoodoo >Hmmm. And does it have anything to do with recent >allegations that the US, with the tacit support of >Kuwait, has opened up secret oil fields in Southern >Iraq through Kuwait ? and are now pumping two to >three times more oil than is claimed "on the books" - >and helping to finance the war to a degree that way? >After all, with the deficits racked up in the past >four years, the dollar should be worth pennies next to >the Euro, and one can only suspect that it is being >propped up by some hidden force. > >The voodoo part is pretty obvious. Gasoline is still >about $2 in California and the wholesale price dropped >significantly AFTER the OPEC announcement. >Traditionally the wholesale price is 35% of the >selling price with most of the rest going to >Fed/State/County/City taxes bribes and assorted >payoffs, along with chump-change for the dealer. At >$50 per 42 gallon barrel for crude, gasoline at the >pump "should" cost at least as $3.50-3.75 now but it >is still at $2; and yes, it does cost over $5 in >Europe now, and probably will here as well... as soon >as the political climate permits it. > >Bush doesn't want a civil war at home in places like >California, who generally hate his administration with >an visceral intensity that other parts of the country >do not even begin to understand. This is a state that >can elect Reagan and Swartznegger, and really any >decent person - especially if they have charisma, >humor, character and intelligence... but cannot >tolerate high-level greed... at least not without the >other three in excess. California is closer to actaul >"seccession" than most Easterners realize >http://tinyurl.com/67dzy >...and civil disobedience will happen here with with >absolute certainty with $5 gasoline, at least until DC >gets the troops back home to maintain order. He can >then let the price rise in 2008 to as far above $5 at >the pump as possible, and at the same time try to make >it look like it is the Dem/wits fault. And it probably >will be... for not trying harder to get him out of >office. > >But I have to admire his moxie with this noovoodoo >plan. It is brilliantly concieved. One can only >suspect that the brains behind it truly have the >initials "DC" but are not located anywhere near >Capitol Hill. > >We are claiming to the world "officially" that Iraqi >production is about 2 million BBD or about $35 billion >per year at the new higher price... yet at OPEC they >openly laught at that assertion. OTOH compare that >reality with the fact we have already spent, according >to real estimates about $500 billion on the war (only >half of it out-of-pocket and that is the difference >between estimates). Is there a payback to recoup most >of this, through the noovoodoo scheme of DC? > >Yup. It looks that way. Way to go, Dick. > >If the contested fields are really pumping - you >remember the fileds in South Iraq bordering Kuwait, >which Saddam coveted for decades, and was a big part >of his motivation for the Kuwait invasion - because >they hold more oil than all of Kuwait; and as some >OPEC ministers have confided to reportes - that >Halliburton is now pumping secretly through the new >pipeline an estimated 2-2.5 BBD... yes, the sand-storm >is clearing and now, and it is becomming clear WHY we >did not officiall protest the OPEC cartel's new higher >oil price. > >This off-the-book oil goes to Europe anyway. The logic >is that they have not paid for our invasion, and >cannot do so politically, though we are all "in the >same boat together" - ERGO, they should be made to pay >the "new" artificial price through market >manipulation... > >...sounds logical to me, and yes, there are many any >claim that even the older "voodoo model" worked in the >long run. Three of fours years of this and Europe has >effectively paid its fair share. It does not hurt that >the Hubbert curve, ect makes it "look like" oil has >nearly peaked, but even if it has, the $50 price was >"too much, too soon" for normal market moves even in a >partially free-market that is dominated by US >interests, even if those "interests" are wearing >abayas and shailas in front of the Arab press... > >Most of them were educated here anyway, know economics >better than most CPas, and have mansions and bank >accounts in the US and Europe... just in case... > >Remember these haunting words from a man who even >managed to "beat the hangman": >"Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought >to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you >have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and >denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and >exposing the country to danger. It works the same in >any country." > > -- Hermann Goering, > >After being sentenced to death at the Nuremberg >trials, and also seen on a framed and signed autograph >in DCs former office at Hallibuton in calmer times... >long before getting interested in politics, of course. > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 9 10:58:38 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j19IwAcg025447; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 10:58:14 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j19Iw11R025307; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 10:58:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 10:58:01 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick+highsurf.com mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20050209172450.61806.qmail web81109.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050209172450.61806.qmail web81109.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 08:57:35 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: noovoodoo economics Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57621 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones - There was an article a year or so ago in Pop-Sci-Mech whatever showing how we could in fact defeat California rather quickly if we had to, complete with great graphics of missle launches, satellites, etc. I'm not afraid of Californians. Bring 'em on. - R From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 9 11:35:38 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j19JZCKh013233; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 11:35:13 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j19JZ9aa013189; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 11:35:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 11:35:09 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20050209193453.56949.qmail web81101.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 11:34:53 -0800 (PST) From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: noovoodoo economics To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57622 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- Rick Monteverde wrote: > Jones - > > There was an article a year or so ago in > Pop-Sci-Mech whatever showing how we could in fact > defeat California rather quickly if we had to, > complete with great graphics of missle launches, > satellites, etc. I'm not afraid of Californians. > Bring 'em on. Good point. But it's a little like shooting yourself in the foot, isn't it? more like in the 'nads, according to Hollywood... Tell ya' what.... We'll give you the guberantor in exchange for letting us dispense with the ABC axis of evil. Everybody will be happy (except the Enronites and Halliburton, etc.), and the balance of power will stay about the same, but we will have a real hero in Washington with less petro-government to weight down progress. Maybe the ABC boys can use Goering's ploy to defeat the hangman, as there should be lots of under-used cyanide around San Quentin ... or maybe Ken Lay will come to the resue of his old pals ;-) Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 9 12:42:29 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j19Kg8Tk020618; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 12:42:09 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j19Kg4Kb020572; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 12:42:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 12:42:04 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 11:41:27 -0900 To: From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: [OFF TOPIC] Time to start Filtering again Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57624 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 1:13 PM 2/9/5, Don Wiegel wrote: >I noticed that: Frederick Sparber signed his last Reply as: >- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - >Signing off the list. > >Frederick >- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > >Vortex is the greatest news list on the internet for stimulating >conversations. Personally .. I enjoy most all of the subjects discussed. > >However ... There are some Great Minds out there who do not like the "Off >Topic" conversions. > >For awhile you all put [OFF TOPIC] in the subject line .. When you were "Off >Topic" > >This allows those who want to .. To Filter out this type of conversion. > >Could you all start doing this again .. Maybe this would get Mr. Sparber >back. > >Also .. Remember "PlainTEXT" only. > >-DonW- Fred will be back when he has something to say. He signs off and on the list frequently. He just signs off when he doesn't have time to or doesn't want to converse. I certainly do agree with use of the [OFF TOPIC] or [OT] designations when the discussion drifts completely away from a science topic. I should also note I personally have enjoyed reading some of the OT discussions. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 9 13:13:15 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j19LCgTk005458; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 13:12:43 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j19LBkNo004954; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 13:11:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 13:11:46 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 16:09:10 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: charging for energy consumption. In-reply-to: <2lfa01d4ijb0eep9eep7bqalf51nheqgfp 4ax.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Cc: MetaSciences Academy , 4DWorldx <4DWorldx yahoogroups.com> Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: <-3RNWD.A.PNB.OynCCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57625 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: While modern physics represents all forms of energy as equivalent through the conservation laws, is every form of energy consumption morally equal? .e.g. Some types of energy consumption keep people from freezing. Is this use of energy morally equivalent to the energy used to operate a shopping mall? I view some forms of energy consumption as a public good and these should be provided free of charge. Of course the taxpayer will ultimately pay but consider how the modern highway system was built. Harry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 9 13:27:10 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j19LQnTk015348; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 13:26:49 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j19LQiBn015268; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 13:26:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 13:26:44 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=P2OdzzcXB9jnobVutUYHMF6UoTrnElMZ/e88IK18nybMlCApezIzrRrxmQNVeAt5cxcqGUi8hkp1VqYS3PvYSt7sMG/0BaVP/F7ZAfj6yn601sIHKIa2nZgLIkAK0pIOHK0sbUgOjsIjLnC/vGWntVU5dzmGp20prN9xJ+CHCMg= ; Message-ID: <20050209212545.91059.qmail web51709.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 13:25:45 -0800 (PST) From: Terry Blanton Subject: Cluster Chemistry To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57627 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: http://www.science.psu.edu/alert/Castleman1-2005.htm Clusters of Aluminum Atoms Found to Have Properties of Other Elements Reveal a New Form of Chemistry 13 January 2005—A research team has discovered clusters of aluminum atoms that have chemical properties similar to single atoms of metallic and nonmetallic elements when they react with iodine. The discovery opens the door to using 'superatom chemistry' based on a new periodic table of cluster elements to create unique compounds with distinctive properties never seen before. The results of the research, headed jointly by Shiv N. Khanna, professor of physics at Virginia Commonwealth University and A. Welford Castleman Jr., the Evan Pugh Professor of Chemistry and Physics and the Eberly Family Distinguished Chair in Science at Penn State University, will be reported in the 14 January 2005 issue of the journal Science. "Depending on the number of aluminum atoms in the cluster, we have demonstrated 'superatoms' exhibiting the properties of either halogens or alkaline earth metals," says Castleman. "This result suggests the intriguing potential of this chemistry in nanoscale synthesis." The discovery could have practical applications in the fields of medicine, food production and photography. The researchers examined the chemical properties, electronic structure, and geometry of aluminum clusters both theoretically and experimentally in chemical compounds with iodine atoms. They found that a cluster of 13 aluminum atoms behaves like a single iodine atom, while a cluster of 14 aluminum atoms behaves like an alkaline earth atom. "The discovery of these new iodine compounds, which include aluminum clusters, is critical because it reveals a new form of 'superatom' chemistry," said Khanna. "In the future, we may apply this chemistry, building on our previous knowledge, to create new materials for energy applications and even medical devices." To make their discovery, the research team replaced iodine atoms with the aluminum clusters in naturally occurring chains or networks of iodine atoms and molecules known as polyiodides. When the researchers substituted the iodine atom with the aluminum cluster, Al13, they observed that the entire chemistry of the compound changed--causing the other iodine molecules to break apart and bind individually to the cluster. The researchers then were able to bind 12 iodine atoms to a single Al13 cluster, forming a completely new class of polyiodides. "Our production of such a species is a stirring development that may lead to new compounds with a completely new class of chemistry and applications," says Castleman. "Along with the discovery that Al14 clusters appear to behave similarly to alkaline earth atoms when combined with iodine, these new results give further evidence that we are really on our way to the development of a periodic table of the 'cluster elements'." The researchers conducted experimental reactivity studies that indicate that certain aluminum-cluster superatoms are highly stable by nature. The team's related theoretical investigations reveal that the enhanced stability of these superatoms is associated with a balance in their atomic and electronic states. While the clusters resemble atoms of other elements in their interactions, their chemistry is unique, creating stable compounds with bonds that are not identical to those of single atoms. Using stable clusters provides a possible route to an adaptive chemistry that introduces the aluminum-cluster species into nanoscale materials, tailoring them to create desirable properties. "The flexibility of an Al13 cluster to act as an iodine atom shows that superatoms can have synthetic utility, providing an unexplored 'third dimension' to the traditional periodic table of elements," said Khanna. "Applications using Al13 clusters instead of iodine in polymers may lead to the development of improved conducting materials. Assembling Al13I units may provide aluminum materials that will not oxidize, and may help overcome a major problem in fuels that burn aluminum particles." The theoretical investigations for this project were conducted by Khanna with N.O. Jones, a graduate student in the physics department at Virginia Commonwealth University, and the experimental work was conducted by Castleman with Denis Bergeron and Patrick J. Roach, graduate students in the chemistry department at Penn State. This research was supported by the U. S. Air Force Office of Scientific Research and the U. S. Department of Energy. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 9 12:14:34 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j19KE7Kh003395; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 12:14:08 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j19KDon5003235; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 12:13:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 12:13:50 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <200502092013.j19KDgKh003086 ultra5.eskimo.com> Reply-To: From: "Don Wiegel" To: Subject: [OFF TOPIC] Time to start Filtering again Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 13:13:34 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Thread-Index: AcUO49Jvs/qJMxXxRcqD+HXnxdpkug== Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57623 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com X-Suspected-Spam: billb friends3 Status: RO X-Status: I noticed that: Frederick Sparber signed his last Reply as: - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Signing off the list. Frederick - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Vortex is the greatest news list on the internet for stimulating conversations. Personally .. I enjoy most all of the subjects discussed. However ... There are some Great Minds out there who do not like the "Off Topic" conversions. For awhile you all put [OFF TOPIC] in the subject line .. When you were "Off Topic" This allows those who want to .. To Filter out this type of conversion. Could you all start doing this again .. Maybe this would get Mr. Sparber back. Also .. Remember "PlainTEXT" only. -DonW- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 9 14:01:32 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j19M0xTo005303; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 14:01:19 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j19LP47C013932; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 13:25:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 13:25:04 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: VSG -- Naudin Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 08:24:47 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <8gvk01t2nnjq55u80597p432hqsagmnjfe 4ax.com> References: <20050207220910.24809.qmail web81108.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20050207220910.24809.qmail web81108.mail.yahoo.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j19LOwTk013765 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57626 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In reply to Jones Beene's message of Mon, 07 Feb 2005 14:09:10 -0800: Hi, [snip] >Another interesting experiment from Naudin: >http://jlnlabs.imars.com/vsg/index.htm [snip] >The evidence is said to be a strong pulse of 13 Mev I don't think that is actually the evidence. 13 MeV is simply the decay energy of B12. There just appears to be an assumption that C12 will absorb ZPE and an electron and convert temporarily into B12, which will then naturally decay back to C12. [snip] >As an alternative explanation, on could suggest that >12 Ps are anihilating simultaneously - but >coincidenally? No. How could this involve all 12 of >the electrons from one carbon at the same time? [snip] I think a more likely explanation is stimulated decay of the thorium in the welding rod. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 9 14:19:54 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j19MJQTk014967; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 14:19:30 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j19MJFrA014846; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 14:19:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 14:19:15 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <003901c50ef5$5c7205c0$92017841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: Noovoodoo economics Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 16:19:01 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0035_01C50EC3.11094940" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-99.8 required=4.0 tests=HTML_50_60,HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57628 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0035_01C50EC3.11094940 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0036_01C50EC3.11094940" ------=_NextPart_001_0036_01C50EC3.11094940 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankJones, another view ,=20 http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/HUD403A.html Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0036_01C50EC3.11094940 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Jones, another view ,

http://www.gl= obalresearch.ca/articles/HUD403A.html

Richard

------=_NextPart_001_0036_01C50EC3.11094940-- ------=_NextPart_000_0035_01C50EC3.11094940 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <003401c50ef5$5b9d9ec0$92017841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0035_01C50EC3.11094940-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 9 14:48:48 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j19MmMTk030147; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 14:48:24 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j19MlsWB029884; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 14:47:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 14:47:54 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: VSG -- Naudin Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 17:48:16 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <8gvk01t2nnjq55u80597p432hqsagmnjfe 4ax.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57629 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hey Robin, Or more to the point, vaporized thorium from the carbon/tungsten arc gap. This separate from the arc impedance change noted on the site. Cock-a-Doodle-Do. Happy new year. K. -----Original Message----- From: Robin van Spaandonk [mailto:rvanspaa bigpond.net.au] Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 4:25 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: VSG -- Naudin In reply to Jones Beene's message of Mon, 07 Feb 2005 14:09:10 -0800: Hi, [snip] >Another interesting experiment from Naudin: >http://jlnlabs.imars.com/vsg/index.htm [snip] >The evidence is said to be a strong pulse of 13 Mev I don't think that is actually the evidence. 13 MeV is simply the decay energy of B12. There just appears to be an assumption that C12 will absorb ZPE and an electron and convert temporarily into B12, which will then naturally decay back to C12. [snip] >As an alternative explanation, on could suggest that >12 Ps are anihilating simultaneously - but >coincidenally? No. How could this involve all 12 of >the electrons from one carbon at the same time? [snip] I think a more likely explanation is stimulated decay of the thorium in the welding rod. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 9 15:32:51 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j19NUvTm024787; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 15:32:29 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j19NGPcK014845; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 15:16:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 15:16:25 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20050209231601.51416.qmail web81104.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 15:16:01 -0800 (PST) From: Jones Beene Subject: [OT] Noovoodoo economics and portmanteau words To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <003901c50ef5$5c7205c0$92017841 xptower> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57630 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- RC Macaulay wrote: > http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/HUD403A.html I almost wish you hadn't sent that reference, Richard, as it really makes me realize how far we have strayed in the never-ending battle of greed vs. fair government (not to mention wanting to puke at those who think the present administration has moral principles because they are backed by the religious right). To think that this great country is willingly turning away from a long tradition of well, crony-capitalism to what amounts to a petro-criminal oligarchy, sustained by religious fundamentalism... is almost sickening. In effect we now are approaching the equivalent of an Americanized Taliban entrenched in place of a true democracy. >From the reference: "Much of America's net foreign debt, along with that of countries such as Argentina, is owed to these flight-capital centers. This has become the meaning of "globalization" in its financial dimension." There is humor in this, I suppose. But it is of the "you have to laugh or else you cry-type of humor." You own two cows. under ~ ~ Fascism - you keep both cows, state regulates milk production, dictates who you sell to, and the price. ~ Communism - confiscates one cow, regulates milk production, confiscates most of your milk and profit and gives it to unproductive people. ~ Socialism - lets you keep both cows, confiscates most of your profit and gives it to unproductive people, but let's you vote for the leader who promises to change things and never does. ~ Democratic Bureaucracy - lets you keep both cows, confiscates most of your profit and gives it to unproductive people. It also buys a large portion of your milk and then pours it down the drain. Then it raises taxes to fund elaborate, expensive studies to find out why government is so inefficient. ~ Libertarian Capitalist Republic - Lets you keep both cows, the milk, and your profit. It regulates nothing. You sell one cow and buy a bull. This form of government only exists in the imagination, however. ~ New American Crony Capitalist Petrocracy - Lets you keep both cows, and about 60% of the profit. It regulates nothing directly, but borrows using you cow, bull, and new calves for collateral. You try to sell the milk but find the only buyer is an offshore bank, and they want to take out a second mortgage on everything to make sure that you buy your tractor fuel at the new inflated price ... etc etc Sad.... BTW for more of a smile, and for the benefit of any who did not finish the Sunday Puzzle, there is the subject of my favorite "le mot juste" which is the "portmanteau word" or morphword...which is a literary trend that did not begin with either the Beatles nor email, but goes back to Lewis Carrol, James Joyce and especially the French, who have so few words to begin with (OTOH they all sound very nice on the ear). "Noovoodoo" is the not necessarily French nor even the newest in the long lineage (Petrocracy is a few hours newer) some others: bionic ..................biology + electronic blog .....................web + log brunch .................breakfast + lunch camcorder ............camera + recorder email ....................electronic + mail factoid ..................fact + oid fantabulous ..........fantastic + fabulous infomercial ...........information + commercial motel.....................motor + hotel smog.....................smoke + fog ... and of course, pundit....... wordplay specialist + idiot hey, as your local pundit, I represent that remark.... Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 9 16:02:44 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1A02DTk007914; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 16:02:14 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1A0280L007852; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 16:02:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 16:02:08 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 15:01:40 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Cluster Chemistry Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j1A022Tk007775 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57631 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 1:25 PM 2/9/5, Terry Blanton wrote: >http://www.science.psu.edu/alert/Castleman1-2005.htm > >Clusters of Aluminum Atoms Found to Have Properties of >Other Elements Reveal a New Form of Chemistry >13 January 2005’ÄîA research team has discovered >clusters of aluminum atoms that have chemical >properties similar to single atoms of metallic and >nonmetallic elements [snip] Given that aluminum nanopowders are used in solid rocket fuels and explosives, could it be possible that aluminum nanopowders absorbed into the body can act like a wide variety of toxins, while not being readily detectable as such? Might there be a relation to Desert Storm Syndrome? One also has to wonder about the possibility of nano-cluster formation in the body when aluminum compound containing food, like some baking powders, acidic food in aluminum cans, food in containers with aluminum foil tops, food in plastic containers that are aluminized on the inside, or pickles containing alum, is consumed. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 9 16:11:18 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1A0AgTk013167; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 16:10:46 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1A0AdVo013131; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 16:10:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 16:10:39 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002501c50f05$2d23c820$6601a8c0 msns.flt.ptd.net> From: "revtec" To: Cc: "Bob Flower" , "Andy Becan" , Subject: SOLVING REALLY BIG PROBLEMS Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 19:12:12 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0022_01C50EDB.4280EF60" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Resent-Message-ID: <_-5D.A.DND.-ZqCCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57632 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0022_01C50EDB.4280EF60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable What is our collective goal regarding the commercialization of CF? =20 Is it to reduce the level of CO2 emissions to reverse global warming? =20 Is it to improve the quality of life by providing an inexhaustable = source of cheap energy to everyone on the planet? Perhaps the reduction in CO2 emissions will be more than offset by the = waste heat output of billions of CF engines, and that global warming = will accelerate by direct heating alone! Could it be that with = perfecting CF we are about to open pandora's box? I brought this up before without getting a single comment. Did I have = silent agreement with this concern from most of the group, am I = considered totally nuts, or maybe most subscribers dump every post from = revtec without reading a single word. I really don't know. God stuff is considered off topic in this forum, but I'm covinced that = it is central. Our perception of threats to our existance is directly = linked to our perception of God. Our attitudes toward "God sized" = problems are determined by our concept of God. The thermal condition of = this planet is set by the output of the sun. Compared to a one or two = percent fluctuation in solar radiation, anything humans can do down here = is totally irrelevant. =20 Christians think God has his hand on the solar thermostat. Athiests = think no one does. =20 Christians trust God to dial it back if necessary in response to our = increased heat load. People, who either don't believe in God or don't = trust God, think we must master these adjustments ourselves. =20 Christians are thought callous for not recognizing the need to tackle = "God sized" problems while there are nonbelievers amoung us who think = the solution to planetary thermal overload and other environmental = problems is to eliminate five of the six billion people on the Earth's = surface. For anyone who wants to play the God game, the stakes are fantastically = high. What will be the most likely cause of calamity: trusting God or playing = God? Jeff ------=_NextPart_000_0022_01C50EDB.4280EF60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
What is our collective goal regarding = the=20 commercialization of CF? 
 
Is it to reduce the level of CO2 = emissions to=20 reverse global warming? 
 
Is it to improve the quality of life by = providing=20 an inexhaustable source of cheap energy to everyone on the=20 planet?
 
Perhaps the reduction in CO2 emissions = will be more=20 than offset by the waste heat output of billions of CF engines, and = that=20 global warming will accelerate by direct heating alone!  Could it = be that=20 with perfecting CF we are about to open pandora's box?
 
I brought this up before without = getting a single=20 comment.  Did I have silent agreement with this concern from most = of the=20 group, am I considered totally nuts, or maybe most subscribers dump = every=20 post from revtec without reading a single word.  I really don't=20 know.
 
God stuff is considered off topic in = this forum,=20 but I'm covinced that it is central.  Our perception of threats to = our=20 existance is directly linked to our perception of God.  Our = attitudes=20 toward "God sized" problems are determined by our concept of God.  = The=20 thermal condition of this planet is set by the output of the sun.  = Compared=20 to a one or two percent fluctuation in solar radiation, anything humans = can do=20 down here is totally irrelevant. 
 
Christians think God has his hand on = the solar=20 thermostat.  Athiests think no one does. 
 
Christians trust God to dial it back if = necessary=20 in response to our increased heat load.  People, who either don't = believe=20 in God or don't trust God, think we must master these adjustments=20 ourselves. 
 
Christians are thought callous for not = recognizing=20 the need to tackle "God sized" problems while there are nonbelievers = amoung us=20 who think the solution to planetary thermal overload and other = environmental=20 problems is to eliminate five of the six billion people on the Earth's=20 surface.
 
For anyone who wants to play the God = game, the=20 stakes are fantastically high.
 
What will be the most = likely cause=20 of calamity: trusting God or playing God?
 
Jeff
------=_NextPart_000_0022_01C50EDB.4280EF60-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 9 16:58:10 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1A0vmTk029796; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 16:57:52 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1A0vknO029787; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 16:57:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 16:57:46 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20050210005739.7407.qmail web81105.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 16:57:38 -0800 (PST) From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: SOLVING REALLY BIG PROBLEMS To: vortex-l eskimo.com Cc: Bob Flower , Andy Becan , ganderson crowniron.com In-Reply-To: <002501c50f05$2d23c820$6601a8c0 msns.flt.ptd.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57633 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- revtec wrote: > Perhaps the reduction in CO2 emissions will be more > than offset by the waste heat output of billions of > CF engines, and that global warming will accelerate > by direct heating alone! Could it be that with > perfecting CF we are about to open pandora's box? > I brought this up before without getting a single > comment. Did I have silent agreement with this > concern from most of the group, or am I considered > totally nuts.... Not sure what you are referring to specifically, but back in April when I brought up the subject of thermal pollution in a long post to vortex, I believe it was you (or someone using the name "revtec") who commented, "I personally believe that we are overrating our ability to thermally affect this planet, and that the earth is thermally self regulating to a much greater degree than we give it credit for." Do I take it that you are now coming around to getting a proper understanding of the issue of thermal pollution, and now chiding others for following your previous advice? Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 9 17:22:04 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1A1LmTk008397; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 17:21:49 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1A1Lib7008355; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 17:21:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 17:21:44 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4324851.1107998500784.JavaMail.root wamui01.slb.atl.earthlink.net> Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 20:21:40 -0500 (GMT-05:00) From: Jed Rothwell Reply-To: Jed Rothwell To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: SOLVING REALLY BIG PROBLEMS Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Earthlink Zoo Mail 1.0 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57634 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jeff writes: > What is our collective goal regarding the commercialization of CF? > Is it to reduce the level of CO2 emissions to reverse global warming? Yes > Perhaps the reduction in CO2 emissions will be more than offset by the waste heat output of billions of CF > engines, and that global warming will accelerate by direct heating alone! Nope. Can't happen. Two reasons: 1. As I show in the book, cold fusion is so efficient, it would greatly reduce primary energy use for a long time, even if energy consumption increases. See chapters 14 and 15. 2. Heat from engines leaves the atmosphere in about a half hour. You would have to increase heat from motors by a huge factor before it would have a serious impact. Most future applications that will require really massive amounts of energy will probably reduce overall global warming, while they improve and restore the ecosystem. They will be projects such as massive desalination. Energy intense manufacturing will probably be off-planet, because it produces noise and pollution -- and waste heat too. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 9 17:25:14 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1A1OsTk009609; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 17:24:58 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1A1Ook4009577; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 17:24:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 17:24:50 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001c01c50f0f$4e9f5c80$bf037841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: solving really big problems Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 19:24:45 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0018_01C50EDD.0387A630" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-99.8 required=4.0 tests=HTML_50_60,HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57635 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C50EDD.0387A630 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0019_01C50EDD.0387A630" ------=_NextPart_001_0019_01C50EDD.0387A630 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankRevtec, interesting questions, more to ponder than to reply. It depends on whether one believes in God ..or .. whether one believes = God. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0019_01C50EDD.0387A630 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Revtec,  interesting questions, more to = ponder than=20 to reply.
 
It depends on whether one believes in God ..or = ..=20 whether one believes God.
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_0019_01C50EDD.0387A630-- ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C50EDD.0387A630 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <001701c50f0f$4e1a7510$bf037841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C50EDD.0387A630-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 9 18:20:16 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1A2Jvlw009461; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 18:19:57 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1A2Jhb1009389; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 18:19:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 18:19:43 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <004401c50f17$26413800$6601a8c0 msns.flt.ptd.net> From: "revtec" To: References: <20050210005739.7407.qmail web81105.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: SOLVING REALLY BIG PROBLEMS Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 21:20:52 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57636 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jones Beene" To: Cc: "Bob Flower" ; "Andy Becan" ; Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 7:57 PM Subject: Re: SOLVING REALLY BIG PROBLEMS > > --- revtec wrote: > > > Perhaps the reduction in CO2 emissions will be more > > than offset by the waste heat output of billions of > > CF engines, and that global warming will accelerate > > by direct heating alone! Could it be that with > > perfecting CF we are about to open pandora's box? > > > I brought this up before without getting a single > > comment. Did I have silent agreement with this > > concern from most of the group, or am I considered > > totally nuts.... > > Not sure what you are referring to specifically, but > back in April when I brought up the subject of thermal > pollution in a long post to vortex, I believe it was > you (or someone using the name "revtec") who > commented, > > "I personally believe that we are overrating our > ability to thermally affect this planet, and that the > earth is thermally self regulating to a much greater > degree than we give it credit for." > > Do I take it that you are now coming around to getting > a proper understanding of the issue of thermal > pollution, and now chiding others for following your > previous advice? > > Jones > No. I still believe the Earth has a propensity for self regulation. But if human activity manages to push the planet beyond the control limits a concerned God can make further adjustments. Jeff From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 9 19:31:34 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1A3VAlw004959; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 19:31:11 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1A3V7Ix004928; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 19:31:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 19:31:07 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 18:30:30 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: SOLVING REALLY BIG PROBLEMS Cc: "Bob Flower" , "Andy Becan" , Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57637 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 7:12 PM 2/9/5, revtec wrote: >Perhaps the reduction in CO2 emissions will be more than offset by the >waste heat output of billions of CF engines, and that global warming will >accelerate by direct heating alone! Could it be that with perfecting CF >we are about to open pandora's box? The world energy consumpion is about 400 quads, i.e. 400x10^15 BTU = 1.17x10^14 kWh, and is forecast to be about 470 quads in 2010. The world power consumption is thus roughly (1.17x10^14 kWh)/((365 d/y)*(24 h/d)) = 1.34x10^10 kW. The sun puts out roughly a kW/m^2, the earth's radius is 6.38x10^6 m, so the earth presents about 3.2x10^13 m^2 to the sun, thus obtains energy at a rate of about 3.2x10^12 kW from the sun. The total energy consumed is equivalent to a reduction in solar insolation factor by about a half a percent. However, since the energy provided by CF would for the most part *replace* carbon based fuel consumption, it is mostly an offset, thus the effect you are talking about would not occur. If we keep our nuclear plants then it is a full offset. A large reduction in CO2 generation would occur, however. This all assumes the efficiency of CF is similar to heat enigines, or that waste heat is used effectively. The overall efficiency of a CF based system, augmented by solar and wind power, could possibly be much better than our present energy delivery system. Terrestrial solar power, however, as generated by black solar cells, is not efficient at present, and if it covered a significant portion of the earth it could increase global warming by reducing the earth's albedo (the amount of sunlight reflected as a percent of sunlight supplied). Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 9 21:28:36 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1A5SOlw017566; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 21:28:25 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1A5S9hX017411; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 21:28:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 21:28:09 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050210052441.0069a5d4 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 05:24:41 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Cluster Chemistry Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j1A5Rtlw017317 Resent-Message-ID: <7nx98C.A.zPE.mDvCCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57638 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 03:01 pm 09-02-05 -0900, you wrote: >At 1:25 PM 2/9/5, Terry Blanton wrote: >>http://www.science.psu.edu/alert/Castleman1-2005.htm >> >>Clusters of Aluminum Atoms Found to Have Properties of >>Other Elements Reveal a New Form of Chemistry >>13 January 2005’ÄîA research team has discovered >>clusters of aluminum atoms that have chemical >>properties similar to single atoms of metallic and >>nonmetallic elements > >[snip] > >Given that aluminum nanopowders are used in solid rocket fuels and >explosives, could it be possible that aluminum nanopowders absorbed into >the body can act like a wide variety of toxins, while not being readily >detectable as such? Might there be a relation to Desert Storm Syndrome? >One also has to wonder about the possibility of nano-cluster formation in >the body when aluminum compound containing food, like some baking powders, >acidic food in aluminum cans, food in containers with aluminum foil tops, >food in plastic containers that are aluminized on the inside, or pickles >containing alum, is consumed. > >Regards, > >Horace Heffner Whilst on the subject of "clusters" it occurs to me that since there seems to be a whole new discipline of inorganic cluster chemistry out there waiting to be discovered, there may also be a whole new discipline of hydroic chemistry also waiting to be discovered. On his excellent website Professor Chaplin describes some of these clusters; and the power laws for water and water vapour strongly suggest the these clusters comprise a self similar hierarchy as outlined in Buchanan's very readable book, UBIQUITY. Though I hate to admit it, maybe my harp playing Spanish daughter-in-law is not quite so daft as I imagine by believing in Homeopathy. It appears I might have hoisted myself on my own petard. 8-( Cheers, Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 9 21:32:37 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1A5Vslw019091; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 21:32:02 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1A5Vol0019021; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 21:31:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 21:31:50 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20050209182606.00b02770 mail.dlsi.net> X-Sender: steven%newenergytimes.com mail.dlsi.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 21:34:40 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: SOLVING REALLY BIG PROBLEMS In-Reply-To: <4324851.1107998500784.JavaMail.root wamui01.slb.atl.earthl ink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_1328303484==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57639 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_1328303484==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 08:21 PM 2/9/2005 -0500, you wrote: >Jeff writes: > > > What is our collective goal regarding the commercialization of CF? > > Is it to reduce the level of CO2 emissions to reverse global warming? I think Bockris put it most succinctly: "It is the basis of a way to continue our Civilization." I've got more comments on the way regarding this in #9 and #10 of the forthcoming issues of New Energy Times. > > Perhaps the reduction in CO2 emissions will be more than offset by the > waste heat output of billions of CF > > engines, and that global warming will accelerate by direct heating alone! > >Nope. Can't happen. Two reasons: > >1. As I show in the book, cold fusion is so efficient, it would greatly >reduce primary energy use for a long time, even if energy consumption >increases. See chapters 14 and 15. > >2. Heat from engines leaves the atmosphere in about a half hour. You would >have to increase heat from motors by a huge factor before it would have a >serious impact. To add to what Jed said, It was my understanding that global warming was primarily because of solar radiation hitting the earth, reflecting back towards space, but intercepted by the greenhouse gasses which absorb the wavelengths of reflected radiation and converts it into thermal energy, thereby creating a transparent blanket. Not so much from the heat that is generated initially from terrestrial sources. Yes? No? Steve --=====================_1328303484==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" At 08:21 PM 2/9/2005 -0500, you wrote:
Jeff writes:

> What is our collective goal regarding the commercialization of CF? 
> Is it to reduce the level of CO2 emissions to reverse global warming? 

I think Bockris put it most succinctly: "It is the basis of a way to continue our Civilization."
I've got more comments on the way regarding this in #9 and #10 of the forthcoming issues of New Energy Times.


> Perhaps the reduction in CO2 emissions will be more than offset by the waste heat output of billions of CF
> engines, and that global warming will accelerate by direct heating alone!

Nope. Can't happen. Two reasons:

1. As I show in the book, cold fusion is so efficient, it would greatly reduce primary energy use for a long time, even if energy consumption increases. See chapters 14 and 15.

2. Heat from engines leaves the atmosphere in about a half hour. You would have to increase heat from motors by a huge factor before it would have a serious impact.

To add to what Jed said,

It was my understanding that global warming was primarily because of solar radiation hitting the earth, reflecting back towards space, but intercepted by the greenhouse gasses which absorb the wavelengths of reflected radiation and converts it into thermal energy, thereby creating a transparent blanket.

Not so much from the heat that is generated initially from terrestrial sources.  Yes? No?


Steve --=====================_1328303484==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 9 22:29:24 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1A6Srlw008961; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 22:28:53 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1A6Smau008910; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 22:28:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 22:28:48 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 21:28:18 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: SOLVING REALLY BIG PROBLEMS Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57640 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 9:34 PM 2/9/5, Steven Krivit wrote: >It was my understanding that global warming was primarily because of solar >radiation hitting the earth, reflecting back towards space, but intercepted >by the greenhouse gasses which absorb the wavelengths of reflected >radiation and converts it into thermal energy, thereby creating a >transparent blanket. > >Not so much from the heat that is generated initially from terrestrial >sources. Yes? No? This was my point in my prior post in this thread. Elimination of all of mankind's energy consuption is about equal to a half of a tenth of a percent decrease in energy trapped by the greenhouse effect. Similarly, if we reduced the solar input by a similar amount, roughly 0.04 percent, we could double our energy use with no net effect - provided there were no additional greenhouse gases generated. It is the emission and retention of greenhouse gasses that is the problem, not the waste heat from energy generation/utilization. Annual world energy use is about 1/2000 the energy the energy the sun sends us each year. Here are the substantiating calculations again (hopefully without any major errors, and with some errors corrected): The world energy consumption is about 400 quads/year, i.e. 400x10^15 BTU/y = 1.17x10^14 kWh/y, and is forecast to be about 470 quads in 2010. The world power consumption is thus roughly (1.17x10^14 kWh/y)/((365 d/y)*(24 h/d)) = 1.34x10^10 kW. The sun puts out roughly a kW/m^2, the earth's radius is 6.38x10^6 m, so the earth presents about 3.2x10^13 m^2 to the sun, thus obtains energy at a rate of about 3.2x10^13 kW from the sun. The total energy consumed by humanity is equivalent to a reduction in solar insolation factor by about 0.04 percent. However, since the energy provided by CF would for the most part *replace* carbon based fuel consumption, it is mostly an offset, thus global warming due to massive CF energy use would not occur. If we keep our nuclear plants and our rate of energy consumption then it is a full offset, meaning no net change. A large reduction in CO2 generation would occur, and without change to the overall energy balance. This should eliminate the greehouse effect, provided methane release and high altitude water vapor concentrations have not pushed us to the no return level. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 10 04:00:13 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1ABxslw017955; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 03:59:54 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1ABxpP4017936; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 03:59:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 03:59:51 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 02:59:20 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: SOLVING REALLY BIG PROBLEMS Cc: "Bob Flower" , "Andy Becan" , Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57641 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 7:12 PM 2/9/5, revtec wrote: >God stuff is considered off topic in this forum, but I'm covinced that it >is central. Our perception of threats to our existance is directly linked >to our perception of God. Our attitudes toward "God sized" problems are >determined by our concept of God. The thermal condition of this planet is >set by the output of the sun. Compared to a one or two percent >fluctuation in solar radiation, anything humans can do down here is >totally irrelevant. A more complete answer and some corrections, follow. Note last paragraph. The objective of achieving even a 10 percent reduction in solar insolation factor seems to me to be feasible. This might be met by dispersing orbiting aluminum (or CaO, or lunar soil) nanopowder from latitudes 50 to -50, at, say, an altitude of about 800 km. This might be accomplished by deploying a ring of satellites that orbit between those latitudes, and then firing rockets in a direction normal to the direction of travel and a radial line through the earths center and such a satellite. The rocket firing would thus not change the orbit altitude, only the poles of the orbit. In this manner the nanpowder would be deployed at a constant altitude. During the firing the nanopowder would be deployed, possibly into the exhaust. It might be possible to design an electric rocket that uses the nanopowder as a reaction mass, and which runs on solar power. It is presently possible to obtain metal nanopowders of dimension 8 nm. These then have volume of (8x10^9 m)^3 = 5.12x10^-22 m^3/particle, or 1.95x10^21 particles/m^3 of, say, aluminum. Aluminum weighs 2.70 g/cm^2 = 2700 kg/m^3. There is thus (1.95x10^21 particles/m^3)/(2700 kg/m^3) = 7.22x10^17 particles/kg. If we assume that one such particle can reflect incoming photons of about 10^-6 m wavelength about 10 percent of the time within a radius of 10^-6 m, then each nanoparticle has the required coverage of Pi*(10^-6 m)^2 = 3.14x10^-12 m^2. This gives a coverage of (7.22x10^17 particle/kg)(3.14x10^-12 m^2/particle) = 2.98x10^6 m^2/kg. The radius of the earth is 6.38x10^6 m, and if we deploy at 800 km then the effective radius of our deployment sphere is 7.18x10^6 m. Given that the area of the zone of a sphere is 2 Pi R h, the total deployment area is 2*Pi*(7.18x10^6 m)*((7.18x10^6 m)*sin(50 deg.)) = 2*Pi*(7.18x10^6 m)^2*(.766) = 4.96x10^14 m^2. The total deployed mass is thus (4.96x10^14 m^2)/(2.98 m^2/kg) = 1.66x10^8 kg, or 166,000 metric tons. Assuming the deployment of this amount of payload can get the price down to $10,000/kg, the cost of deployment is (1.66x10^8 kg)($10,000/kg) = $1.66x10^12. The price of, for a limited time, saving the earth when it is at the defined point of stress is about 1.7 trillion dollars. The worst assumption in this rough first estimate is probably the assumption that an 8 nanometer particle can provide 10 percent reflection back into space of low infrared to visible radiation, radiation averaging about 10^-6 m wavelength, over an area about (10^-6 m)^2. If lunar soil is used, then much less energy is requred to get it into orbit and transport it, so there is no practical constraint the mass that can be moved in a multi-trillion dollar project. Hopefully such a dispersal will be planned to occur at sufficient altitude that it will last long enough for us, or subsequent generations, to solve the global warming problem. This is really a last ditch effort, and may be totally unnecessary. There is enough methane hydrate in the Northern hemisphere to meet all our needs for generations, probably well over 1x10^14 CF. If that gas can be produced and converted to hydrogen, without burning the carbon in the process, and all the carbon in the gas is converted to construction materials, the carbon dioxide in the earth's atmosphere hopefully would diminish at a sufficient rate to avoid runaway warming. Elimination of all of mankind's energy consuption is about equal to a half of a tenth of a percent decrease in energy trapped by the greenhouse effect. Similarly, if we reduced the solar input by a similar amount, roughly 0.04 percent, we could double our energy use with no net effect - provided there were no additional greenhouse gases generated. It is the emission and retention of greenhouse gasses that is the problem, not the waste heat from energy generation/utilization. Annual world energy use is about 1/2000 the energy the energy the sun sends us each year. The world energy consumption is about 400 quads/year, i.e. 400x10^15 BTU/y = 1.17x10^14 kWh/y, and is forecast to be about 470 quads in 2010. The world power consumption is thus roughly (1.17x10^14 kWh/y)/((365 d/y)*(24 h/d)) = 1.34x10^10 kW. The sun puts out roughly a kW/m^2, the earth's radius is 6.38x10^6 m, so the earth presents about 3.2x10^13 m^2 cross section to the sun, thus obtains energy at a rate of about 3.2x10^13 kW from the sun. The total energy consumed by humanity is equivalent to an increase in solar insolation factor by about 0.04 percent, i.e. could be offset by a reduction of solar energy absorbed by about 0.04 percent. However, since the energy provided by CF would for the most part *replace* carbon based fuel consumption, it is mostly an offset, thus global warming due to massive CF energy use would not occur. If we keep our nuclear plants and maintain our rate of energy consumption then it is a full offset, meaning no net change. A large reduction in CO2 generation would occur, and without change to the overall energy balance. This should eliminate the greehouse effect, provided methane release and high altitude water vapor concentrations have not pushed us to the no return level. Depending on God to fix atmospheric environmental problems of our making, like acid rain, the greenhouse effect, massive storms, and huge forest fires, is not a reliable strategy for humanity. It is no more likely to be successful for us than relying on God to clean up any other environmental problems we have made, like Chernobyl, Hanford, Love Canal, West Virginia open pit coal mines, the Detroit River, Lake Erie, etc. It is rather like jumping in front of a speeding bus and expecting to be miraculously saved. As John F Kennedy said: "On this earth God's work must truly be our own". Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 10 04:14:22 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1ACDulw023411; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 04:14:00 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1ACDqJi023378; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 04:13:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 04:13:52 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <420B5255.4030409 ihug.co.nz> Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 01:23:49 +1300 From: John Berry User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: SOLVING REALLY BIG PROBLEMS References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57642 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: But what effect would this have on satellites and future spaceships? If this is a good idea (and I doubt it) the orbit of the particles would have to be limited so they are easy to steer round. Horace Heffner wrote: >At 7:12 PM 2/9/5, revtec wrote: > > > >>God stuff is considered off topic in this forum, but I'm covinced that it >>is central. Our perception of threats to our existance is directly linked >>to our perception of God. Our attitudes toward "God sized" problems are >>determined by our concept of God. The thermal condition of this planet is >>set by the output of the sun. Compared to a one or two percent >>fluctuation in solar radiation, anything humans can do down here is >>totally irrelevant. >> >> > >A more complete answer and some corrections, follow. Note last paragraph. > >The objective of achieving even a 10 percent reduction in solar insolation >factor seems to me to be feasible. This might be met by dispersing >orbiting aluminum (or CaO, or lunar soil) nanopowder from latitudes 50 to >-50, at, say, an altitude of about 800 km. This might be accomplished by >deploying a ring of satellites that orbit between those latitudes, and then >firing rockets in a direction normal to the direction of travel and a >radial line through the earths center and such a satellite. The rocket >firing would thus not change the orbit altitude, only the poles of the >orbit. In this manner the nanpowder would be deployed at a constant >altitude. During the firing the nanopowder would be deployed, possibly into >the exhaust. It might be possible to design an electric rocket that uses >the nanopowder as a reaction mass, and which runs on solar power. > >It is presently possible to obtain metal nanopowders of dimension 8 nm. >These then have volume of (8x10^9 m)^3 = 5.12x10^-22 m^3/particle, or >1.95x10^21 particles/m^3 of, say, aluminum. Aluminum weighs 2.70 g/cm^2 = >2700 kg/m^3. There is thus (1.95x10^21 particles/m^3)/(2700 kg/m^3) = >7.22x10^17 particles/kg. > >If we assume that one such particle can reflect incoming photons of about >10^-6 m wavelength about 10 percent of the time within a radius of 10^-6 m, >then each nanoparticle has the required coverage of Pi*(10^-6 m)^2 = >3.14x10^-12 m^2. This gives a coverage of (7.22x10^17 >particle/kg)(3.14x10^-12 m^2/particle) = 2.98x10^6 m^2/kg. > >The radius of the earth is 6.38x10^6 m, and if we deploy at 800 km then the >effective radius of our deployment sphere is 7.18x10^6 m. Given that the >area of the zone of a sphere is 2 Pi R h, the total deployment area is >2*Pi*(7.18x10^6 m)*((7.18x10^6 m)*sin(50 deg.)) = 2*Pi*(7.18x10^6 >m)^2*(.766) = 4.96x10^14 m^2. > >The total deployed mass is thus (4.96x10^14 m^2)/(2.98 m^2/kg) = 1.66x10^8 >kg, or 166,000 metric tons. > >Assuming the deployment of this amount of payload can get the price down to >$10,000/kg, the cost of deployment is (1.66x10^8 kg)($10,000/kg) = >$1.66x10^12. The price of, for a limited time, saving the earth when it is >at the defined point of stress is about 1.7 trillion dollars. > >The worst assumption in this rough first estimate is probably the >assumption that an 8 nanometer particle can provide 10 percent reflection >back into space of low infrared to visible radiation, radiation averaging >about 10^-6 m wavelength, over an area about (10^-6 m)^2. If lunar soil is >used, then much less energy is requred to get it into orbit and transport >it, so there is no practical constraint the mass that can be moved in a >multi-trillion dollar project. > >Hopefully such a dispersal will be planned to occur at sufficient altitude >that it will last long enough for us, or subsequent generations, to solve >the global warming problem. > >This is really a last ditch effort, and may be totally unnecessary. There >is enough methane hydrate in the Northern hemisphere to meet all our needs >for generations, probably well over 1x10^14 CF. If that gas can be >produced and converted to hydrogen, without burning the carbon in the >process, and all the carbon in the gas is converted to construction >materials, the carbon dioxide in the earth's atmosphere hopefully would >diminish at a sufficient rate to avoid runaway warming. > >Elimination of all of mankind's energy consuption is about equal to a half >of a tenth of a percent decrease in energy trapped by the greenhouse >effect. Similarly, if we reduced the solar input by a similar amount, >roughly 0.04 percent, we could double our energy use with no net effect - >provided there were no additional greenhouse gases generated. It is the >emission and retention of greenhouse gasses that is the problem, not the >waste heat from energy generation/utilization. Annual world energy use is >about 1/2000 the energy the energy the sun sends us each year. > >The world energy consumption is about 400 quads/year, i.e. 400x10^15 BTU/y >= 1.17x10^14 kWh/y, and is forecast to be about 470 quads in 2010. The >world power consumption is thus roughly (1.17x10^14 kWh/y)/((365 d/y)*(24 >h/d)) = 1.34x10^10 kW. > >The sun puts out roughly a kW/m^2, the earth's radius is 6.38x10^6 m, so >the earth presents about 3.2x10^13 m^2 cross section to the sun, thus >obtains energy at a rate of about 3.2x10^13 kW from the sun. The total >energy consumed by humanity is equivalent to an increase in solar >insolation factor by about 0.04 percent, i.e. could be offset by a >reduction of solar energy absorbed by about 0.04 percent. > >However, since the energy provided by CF would for the most part *replace* >carbon based fuel consumption, it is mostly an offset, thus global warming >due to massive CF energy use would not occur. If we keep our nuclear >plants and maintain our rate of energy consumption then it is a full >offset, meaning no net change. A large reduction in CO2 generation would >occur, and without change to the overall energy balance. This should >eliminate the greehouse effect, provided methane release and high altitude >water vapor concentrations have not pushed us to the no return level. > >Depending on God to fix atmospheric environmental problems of our making, >like acid rain, the greenhouse effect, massive storms, and huge forest >fires, is not a reliable strategy for humanity. It is no more likely to be >successful for us than relying on God to clean up any other environmental >problems we have made, like Chernobyl, Hanford, Love Canal, West Virginia >open pit coal mines, the Detroit River, Lake Erie, etc. It is rather like >jumping in front of a speeding bus and expecting to be miraculously saved. >As John F Kennedy said: "On this earth God's work must truly be our own". > >Regards, > >Horace Heffner > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 10 05:14:24 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1ADEElw019600; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 05:14:15 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1ADECJ7019578; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 05:14:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 05:14:12 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050210131055.006864ac pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 13:10:55 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Suppressed science web site Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57643 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:20 am 09-02-05 -0500, you wrote: >See: > >http://www.suppressedscience.net/ > >http://www.suppressedscience.net/physics.html Many thanks for those two URLs Jed. They contain some very useful stuff. It's nice to have it all together in one document. Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 10 05:31:52 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1ADVXlw025220; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 05:31:33 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1ADVV8j025208; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 05:31:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 05:31:31 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001401c50f74$d12fa230$0500a8c0 nixlaptop> From: "Nick Palmer" To: References: <20050209212545.91059.qmail web51709.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Cluster Chemistry Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 13:31:15 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57644 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: <> transparent aluminium Scotty? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 10 06:26:48 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1AEQTlw018918; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 06:26:29 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1AEQQp0018902; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 06:26:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 06:26:26 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <006d01c50f7c$7d256050$0500a8c0 nixlaptop> From: "Nick Palmer" To: References: <002501c50f05$2d23c820$6601a8c0 msns.flt.ptd.net> Subject: Re: SOLVING REALLY BIG PROBLEMS Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 13:55:37 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0030_01C50F78.333C2900" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57645 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0030_01C50F78.333C2900 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable OK revtec, at least I read your posts! you wrote "The thermal condition of this planet is set by the output of = the sun. Compared to a one or two percent fluctuation in solar = radiation, anything humans can do down here is totally irrelevant" The thermal condition of the planet is set by the output of the sun PLUS = the heat "retaining" capacity of the atmosphere and land. Without the = natural greenhouse effect of the atmosphere, Earth would be an ice = planet. This solar output red herring is the latest rhetorical trick of = the global warming deniers. Obviously it has an effect and so does = volcano CO2 output - another (earlier) rhetorical trick, also water = vapour. THESE are all irrelevant because they are NATURAL variations we = have little or no control over. If the solar output was dropping and we = could predict that there would be no large scale volcanic outpourings = for a century or two then environmentalists may look kindly on = INCREASING our output of CO2 etc to stabilise things. The point is, the = arguments of the global warming deniers are more or less functionally = equivalent to the guy who doesn't switch the electricity off when he = rewires a house because people can get struck by lightning... Nick ------=_NextPart_000_0030_01C50F78.333C2900 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
OK revtec, at least I read your = posts!
 
you wrote "The thermal condition of = this planet is=20 set by the output of the sun.  Compared to a one or two percent = fluctuation=20 in solar radiation, anything humans can do down here is totally=20 irrelevant"
 
The thermal condition of the planet is = set by the=20 output of the sun PLUS the heat "retaining" capacity of the atmosphere = and land.=20 Without the natural greenhouse effect of the atmosphere, Earth would be = an ice=20 planet. This solar output red herring is the latest rhetorical trick of = the=20 global warming deniers. Obviously it has an effect and so does volcano = CO2=20 output - another (earlier) rhetorical trick, also water vapour. = THESE are=20 all irrelevant because they are NATURAL variations we have little or no = control=20 over. If the solar output was dropping and we could predict that there = would be=20 no large scale volcanic outpourings for a century or two then=20 environmentalists may look kindly on INCREASING our output of CO2 etc to = stabilise things. The point is, the arguments of the global warming = deniers are=20 more or less functionally equivalent to the guy who doesn't switch = the=20 electricity off when he rewires a house because = people can get=20 struck by lightning...
 
Nick
------=_NextPart_000_0030_01C50F78.333C2900-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 10 06:41:29 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1AEfBlw024974; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 06:41:12 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1AEf9Ji024951; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 06:41:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 06:41:09 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050210143751.006a479c pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 14:37:51 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Cluster Chemistry Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57646 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 01:31 pm 10-02-05 -0000, you wrote: ><Other Elements Reveal a New Form of Chemistry>> > >transparent aluminium Scotty? > Shouldn't that be "transparent aluminum Scotty?" ;-) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 10 06:46:00 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1AEjNlw026777; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 06:45:23 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1AEjL48026752; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 06:45:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 06:45:21 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001801c50f7f$221b87e0$0500a8c0 nixlaptop> From: "Nick Palmer" To: References: <2.2.32.20050210143751.006a479c pop.freeserve.net> Subject: Re: Cluster Chemistry Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 14:45:10 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: <8NReW.A.8hG.AO3CCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57647 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: That's what happens if you get a Canadian pretending to be Scottish... Thought I'd redress the balance From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 10 06:54:01 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1AErjlw030017; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 06:53:45 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1AErhLx029990; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 06:53:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 06:53:43 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050210145023.0069dd80 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 14:50:23 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Cluster Chemistry Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57648 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 02:45 pm 10-02-05 -0000, you wrote: >That's what happens if you get a Canadian pretending to be Scottish... >Thought I'd redress the balance I love it 8^) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 10 06:58:44 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1AEwUlw031825; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 06:58:30 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1AEwRo7031784; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 06:58:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 06:58:27 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050210095319.02b283d0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 09:58:11 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: SOLVING REALLY BIG PROBLEMS In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_1507953==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57649 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_1507953==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Horace Heffner wrote: >However, since the energy provided by CF would for the most part *replace* >carbon based fuel consumption, it is mostly an offset . . . >This all assumes the efficiency of CF is similar to heat enigines, or that >waste heat is used effectively. I think those are very safe assumptions. It is easier to use cold fusion heat effectively than it is to use other sources of heat such as combustion, because these other sources produce poison gas, and they are much too hot (i.e., there is an impedance mismatch). Also, efficiency is bound to improve in the future. It could hardly be worse than it is now! As I said, I discussed this in the book in some detail. - Jed --=====================_1507953==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Horace Heffner wrote:

However, since the energy provided by CF would for the most part *replace*
carbon based fuel consumption, it is mostly an offset . . .


This all assumes the efficiency of CF is similar to heat enigines, or that
waste heat is used effectively.

I think those are very safe assumptions. It is easier to use cold fusion heat effectively than it is to use other sources of heat such as combustion, because these other sources produce poison gas, and they are much too hot (i.e., there is an impedance mismatch). Also, efficiency is bound to improve in the future. It could hardly be worse than it is now!

As I said, I discussed this in the book in some detail.

- Jed
--=====================_1507953==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 10 07:45:41 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1AFjJlw021842; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 07:45:19 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1AFjCvZ021780; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 07:45:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 07:45:12 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20050210154502.73829.qmail web81110.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 07:45:02 -0800 (PST) From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: SOLVING REALLY BIG PROBLEMS To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <006d01c50f7c$7d256050$0500a8c0 nixlaptop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57650 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- Nick Palmer wrote: > The thermal condition of the planet is set by the > output of the sun PLUS the heat "retaining" capacity > of the atmosphere and land. Without the natural > greenhouse effect of the atmosphere, Earth would be > an ice planet. This solar output red herring is the > latest rhetorical trick of the global warming > deniers. Yes and no. You are leaving out a big item here, perhaps the biggest item of all - "natural" CO2 removal, which is negatively impacted by thermal pollution. There seems to be denial by those who do not think that human produced thermal pollution is a risk factor. It is a huge factor. On the positive side, it can become less so IF distributed sources such as cold fusion or ZPE can be perfected before it is too late. It is not 'just' the heat itself but WHERE the heat is dumped. If heat rejection from power plants takes place directly in the river/ocean environment as a heat sink, which is often the case with nuclear and coal-fired plants, then the effect of human thermal pollution is magnified many fold over dumping heat into the atmosphere where some of it can radiate away much faster than in the oceans. But there is much more to the interlocking cycle than re-radiation. Around half of all carbon dioxide produced by humans since the industrial revolution has already dissolved into the world's oceans! with some positive and some adverse effects for marine life. But also helping tremendously to slow the rise of atmospheric CO2 as some of that has already been safely removed by blue-green algae. This factor has led short-sighted individuals, even at the highest levels of government, to think that the Earth is self-regulating. NO! that is not the case past a certain tipping point. That self-regulation is only true in the short term, and we are now passing rapidly through the stage of self-regulation. The most active marine life for taking CO2 _out_ of the ocean is algae and single celled organisms which are FAR more productive in colder water. Fish know this but humans, even some environmentalists, do not seem to get it. Yet fishermen from California and even Mexico for instance, routinely go to all the way to Alaskan waters at great expense- why ... duh ... that is where the fish are, and the fish go there because that is where their food is. It is not that algae "like" cold water, and in fact they could grow faster in warm water, in theory, it is just that cold water holds far more CO2 in the surface layers where they can get both the carbon and the light necessary to convert it into protein easily. ALGAE (and humans, eventually) NEED COLD WATER to flourish. Period. Let me try to hammer this in one more time as there seems to be some strong persistent and incorrect opinions on this. Scientists who undertook the first comprehensive look at ocean storage of carbon dioxide found that the world's oceans serve as a massive sink that traps the greenhouse gas - up to a point - that point being ocean temperature. If ocean temps do not rise much, then CO2 is removed and there is a self-regulating effect. But the effect of thermal pollution is MAGNIFIED in the oceans, which is where 90% of CO2 can be removed easily. The hotter oceans get, the less CO2 can be dissolved in the surface layer. The less that is dissolved, the less that algae can remove. It's not rocket science. The research says that the oceans' removal of the carbon dioxide from Earth's atmosphere has slowed global warming considerably for 150 years, but that *grace-period* has effectively ended because of rising ocean temperatures. And the CO2 removal cycle is now failing at a faster rate in recent years because the oceans have gotten too warm to absorb any more CO2. The self-regulation effect in now on hold and will turn to "runaway" before it returns to self-regulating, unless something is done. Ironically, the melting glaciers have actually helped to oceans cooler, but that is also self-deceptive to think of as a real "fix" for the problem. This is the big point... no the HUGE point about focusing attention on thermal pollution - but ocean not atmospheric. Do not fall prey to the suggestion that Earth is self-regulating in the long term. It is not. The reason we are not in a runaway situation already is that single-cell ocean life has kept up the pace with us, but that process is now fully maximized and can do no more. We are 15-25 years away from a "run-away" greenhouse effect now. I can only pray that "God," however that force is personally defined in the sense of discretion or foresight, has 'chosen' the later date, which will permit us some extra leeway needed to overcome entrenched ignorance and greed, such as we see now at the highest levels of our great petrocracy. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 10 07:47:13 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1AFkslw022521; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 07:46:55 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1AFkrrx022506; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 07:46:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 07:46:53 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=PbjlfBR9Jj0v+McDd/sn3IDqjH3Nr+9FavNL4hIMmGzL6/viEIhAYvfVzqmdkSX+; Message-ID: <410-220052410144614190 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Albedo Modification vs Orbiting Lime Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 08:46:14 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940dad2ed688e9be110b06c8dd2b51726ca350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.235 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57651 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Got through the Realty Problem, Now for the Reality Problem White marble chips ( prone to acid rain degradation) and other reflective roofing materials (Gypsum, made by the Megaton by power plant Sulfur Cleaning) on most housing could lower the earth's temperature by altering the Albedo (at will). When it gets too cold, change the roofing.. :-) http://www.profc.udec.cl/~gabriel/tutoriales/rsnote/cp1/cp1-8.htm "Reflectance is defined as the ratio of incident flux on a sample surface to reflected flux from the surface as shown in Figure 1.8.1. Reflectance ranges from 0 to 1. Reflectance was originally defined as a ratio of incident flux of white light to reflected flux in a hemisphere direction. Equipment to measure reflectance are called spectrometers (see 2.6). Albedo is defined as the reflectance using the incident light source from the sun. Reflectance factor is sometime used as the ratio of reflected flux from a sample surface to reflected flux from a perfectly diffuse surface. Reflectance with respect to wavelength is called spectral reflectance as shown for a vegetation example in Figure 1.8.2. A basic assumption in remote sensing is that spectral reflectance is unique and different from one object to an unlike object. " http://www.physicalgeography.net/fundamentals/7f.html "Reflectivity of the surface is often described by the term surface albedo. The Earth's average albedo, reflectance from both the atmosphere and the surface, is about 30 %. Figure 7f-5 describes the modification of solar radiation by atmospheric and surface processes for the whole Earth over a period of one year. Of all the sunlight that passes through the atmosphere annually, only 51 % is available at the Earth's surface to do work. This energy is used to heat the Earth's surface and lower atmosphere, melt and evaporate water, and run photosynthesis in plants. Of the other 49 %, 4 % is reflected back to space by the Earth's surface, 26 % is scattered or reflected to space by clouds and atmospheric particles, and 19 % is absorbed by atmospheric gases, particles, and clouds." Reflectance of Gypsum (White Sands & the White Cliffs of Dover are visible from the ISS) http://www.tec.army.mil/research/products/desert_guide/lspectra/intro/fig8.htm This sample, from White Sands National Monument in New Mexico, contains particles that passed through a lmm sieve. Water is an important component of gypsum, and the overtones are evident at 1000, 1200, and 1700 nm, as well as the broad, deep dips at 1400 and 1900 nm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Reflectance measurements by the Illinois State Geological Survey on high-calcium limestone samples from most of these deposits range from 57.6% for the Wapsipinicon Limestone from Rock Island County to 88.9% for the Burlington Limestone in Adams County. Values for some of the deposits exceed 80% and therefore compare favorably with reflectance specifications for filler and coating clays." Hope this helps. Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

Got through the Realty Problem, Now for the Reality Problem
 
White marble chips  ( prone to acid rain degradation) and other reflective roofing
materials (Gypsum, made by the Megaton by power plant Sulfur Cleaning) on
most housing could lower the earth's temperature by altering the Albedo (at will).
 
When it gets too cold, change the roofing..  :-)
 
 

"Reflectance is defined as the ratio of incident flux on a sample surface to reflected flux from the surface as shown in Figure 1.8.1. Reflectance ranges from 0 to 1. Reflectance was originally defined as a ratio of incident flux of white light to reflected flux in a hemisphere direction. Equipment to measure reflectance are called spectrometers (see 2.6).

Albedo is defined as the reflectance using the incident light source from the sun. Reflectance factor is sometime used as the ratio of reflected flux from a sample surface to reflected flux from a perfectly diffuse surface. Reflectance with respect to wavelength is called spectral reflectance as shown for a vegetation example in Figure 1.8.2. A basic assumption in remote sensing is that spectral reflectance is unique and different from one object to an unlike object. "

 

"Reflectivity of the surface is often described by the term surface albedo. The Earth's average albedo, reflectance from both the atmosphere and the surface, is about 30 %.

Figure 7f-5 describes the modification of solar radiation by atmospheric and surface processes for the whole Earth over a period of one year. Of all the sunlight that passes through the atmosphere annually, only 51 % is available at the Earth's surface to do work. This energy is used to heat the Earth's surface and lower atmosphere, melt and evaporate water, and run photosynthesis in plants. Of the other 49 %, 4 % is reflected back to space by the Earth's surface, 26 % is scattered or reflected to space by clouds and atmospheric particles, and 19 % is absorbed by atmospheric gases, particles, and clouds."

Reflectance of Gypsum (White Sands & the White Cliffs of Dover are visible from the ISS)

http://www.tec.army.mil/research/products/desert_guide/lspectra/intro/fig8.htm

This sample, from White Sands National Monument in New Mexico, contains particles that passed through a lmm sieve. Water is an important component of gypsum, and the overtones are evident at 1000, 1200, and 1700 nm, as well as the broad, deep dips at 1400 and 1900 nm

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Reflectance measurements by the Illinois State Geological Survey on high-calcium limestone samples from most of these deposits range from 57.6% for the Wapsipinicon Limestone from Rock Island County to 88.9% for the Burlington Limestone in Adams County. Values for some of the deposits exceed 80% and therefore compare favorably with reflectance specifications for filler and coating clays."

Hope this helps.

Frederick

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 10 07:51:38 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1AFp7lw024598; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 07:51:07 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1AFp1H5024517; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 07:51:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 07:51:01 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20050210155047.24707.qmail web54505.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 07:50:47 -0800 (PST) From: Merlyn Subject: [OT]God's Solution To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050210095319.02b283d0 pop.mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1508956941-1108050647=:22948" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57652 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-1508956941-1108050647=:22948 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I love this kind of argument. Let's see how obnoxious I can get with the answer. Free Will God works in mysterious ways The argument that a god (does not have to be the christian God whose name is not known) would save us from our own folly is laughable. The last time God chose to save the world from the folly of man, he flooded the world. The theory that we should not concern ourselves with the environment because God will save us reminds me of a joke... (which I will tell poorly) There was a flood down south, and as the rescue workers were evacuating those stranded by the flood they cam across a particularly pious man sitting calmly on his roof. He refused assistance saying, "The good Lord will provide." Later a second boat came along to try and rescue the man, but again he refused saying, "The good Lord will provide." As the water reached the man's neck, a helicopter flew over and offered him a rope ladder, but again he refused. The man finally drowned and went to heaven, where he asked God, "Why did you not save me Lord?" God replied, "I provided you with two fine boats and a helicopter, what more did you want?" Just because we expect a miracle does not mean we would recognize it when it comes. FWIW I'm probably a deist, I haven't checked lately. Merlyn Magickal Engineer and Technical Metaphysicist --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' --0-1508956941-1108050647=:22948 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
I love this kind of argument.  Let's see how obnoxious I can get with the answer.
 
Free Will
God works in mysterious ways
 
The argument that a god (does not have to be the christian God whose name is not known) would save us from our own folly is laughable.  The last time God chose to save the world from the folly of man, he flooded the world.
 
The theory that we should not concern ourselves with the environment because God will save us reminds me of a joke... (which I will tell poorly)
 
There was a flood down south, and as the rescue workers were evacuating those stranded by the flood they cam across a particularly pious man sitting calmly on his roof.  He refused assistance saying, "The good Lord will provide."  Later a second boat came along to try and rescue the man, but again he refused saying, "The good Lord will provide."  As the water reached the man's neck, a helicopter flew over and offered him a rope ladder, but again he refused.
The man finally drowned and went to heaven, where he asked God, "Why did you not save me Lord?"
God replied, "I provided you with two fine boats and a helicopter, what more did you want?"

Just because we expect a miracle does not mean we would recognize it when it comes.
 
FWIW I'm probably a deist, I haven't checked lately.
 


Merlyn
Magickal Engineer and Technical Metaphysicist

Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' --0-1508956941-1108050647=:22948-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 10 08:23:58 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1AGNllw008976; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 08:23:47 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1AGNjo6008961; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 08:23:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 08:23:45 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "John Steck" To: Subject: RE: [OFF TOPIC] Time to start Filtering again Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 10:24:32 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: Resent-Message-ID: <-QIvsB.A.6LC.Rq4CCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57654 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Intelligent discussion of any topic is not a waste of time... inspiration usually comes from unlikely places. -john -----Original Message----- From: Horace Heffner [mailto:hheffner mtaonline.net] Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 2:41 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [OFF TOPIC] Time to start Filtering again At 1:13 PM 2/9/5, Don Wiegel wrote: >I noticed that: Frederick Sparber signed his last Reply as: >- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - >Signing off the list. > >Frederick >- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > >Vortex is the greatest news list on the internet for stimulating >conversations. Personally .. I enjoy most all of the subjects discussed. > >However ... There are some Great Minds out there who do not like the "Off >Topic" conversions. > >For awhile you all put [OFF TOPIC] in the subject line .. When you were "Off >Topic" > >This allows those who want to .. To Filter out this type of conversion. > >Could you all start doing this again .. Maybe this would get Mr. Sparber >back. > >Also .. Remember "PlainTEXT" only. > >-DonW- Fred will be back when he has something to say. He signs off and on the list frequently. He just signs off when he doesn't have time to or doesn't want to converse. I certainly do agree with use of the [OFF TOPIC] or [OT] designations when the discussion drifts completely away from a science topic. I should also note I personally have enjoyed reading some of the OT discussions. Regards, Horace Heffner -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.7 - Release Date: 10-Feb-05 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 10 08:32:09 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1AGUMm4012102; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 08:32:00 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1AG1eqO029914; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 08:01:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 08:01:40 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050210110008.02aa7430 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 11:01:10 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Message from Russ George about ocean CO2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j1AG1Nlw029653 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57653 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: [Since this topic has come up, here is a message that Russ George recently sent me about ocean CO2. - Jed] On Feb. 16th the Kyoto Accord goes into full effect and with it vast majority of the nations of the world will be engaged in a historic coalition to fight the greatest threat which is global climate and ocean change. As you may recall I have been working on this topic via the Planktos effort for many years. We continue and with some startling news on the acidification of the oceans the ideas of Planktos are becoming recognized as critically important. Adding iron to the oceans becomes a critical need as it the only means by which we might help the oceans fix and sink some of the acid forming CO2 that is already at crisis level. At the end of December the NY TIMES reported on amendments to the Kyoto Accord and at the very end of that report a single sentence makes a riveting statement. "Recently proposed amendments to the Protocol recommend that all signatory nations implement projects for large-scale iron fertilization of the ocean as early as technologically feasible." The work of Planktos continues and this summer we will be conducting the largest iron fertilization experiment to date. This pilot project has the express intent to develop and deliver the technological means and understanding to safely enlist the planktos of the oceans to help reduce the already catastrophically high levels of CO2 in the atmosphere and more importantly in the oceans. I think this topic would make a fantastic story for your readers at the time of the formal implementation of the Kyoto Accord going on the 16th. I attach below both the NY Times story and a short essay I have penned on the crisis in the oceans due to rising CO2, a crisis Planktos is working to alleviate. Russ George www.planktos.com ----------- NY Times Story---------------- Climate Change Law Gets ‘FaceLift’ The Kyoto Protocol to the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change strengthens the internationalresponse to climate change. Adopted by consensus at the third session of the Conference of the Parties (COP3) in December 1997, it contains legally binding greenhouse gas (carbon dioxide) emission targets for developed countries for the post-2000 period. By arresting and reversing the upward trend in atmospheric carbon dioxide emissions that started in these countries 150years ago, the Protocol promises to move the international community one step closer to achieving the Convention’sultimate objective of preventing "dangerous anthropogenic [man-made] interference with the climate system". Recently proposed amendments to the Protocol recommend that all signatory nations implement projects for large-scaleiron fertilization of the ocean as early as technologically feasible. The New York Times 28 December 2004 ---------Essay----------- The Great Dying Redux - Global Oxygen Production Threatened ( Russ George - Feb. 2005) While the world puzzles over claims and counterclaims about the imminence or even existence of a "global warming threat," this simplistic headline debate pays little or no heed to a far more lethal environmental drama now unfolding in our planet's azure depths. The overriding danger to life as we know it is that our rising CO2 levels have already provoked an accelerating collapse of ecosystems in our seas, source of the oxygen we breathe. No one now disputes that greenhouse gases (primarily CO2) are about 45% higher in the atmosphere than a century ago. Despite this stunning evidence, few public figures have had the courage to buck powerful corporate interests, connect the dots, and spell out the risks of "global climate change" dead ahead. In a scene reminiscent of early "tobacco science," many well paid researchers and even the US president continue to tout their "uncertainty", saying, "Don’t worry.. We just don’t know enough to make the call yet. It may still be a myth." While this inane "debate" rages on, let us look at facts we do know in no uncertain terms. There is widespread scientific consensus that our CO2 levels are climbing rapidly, largely spurred by wholesale combustion of fossil carbon reserves. However, media and public attention to this phenomenon focuses almost entirely on its confusing implications for our weather, while the most dire potential consequence of the CO2 buildup is blissfully ignored. This effect imperils the largest and most delicately balanced region of our global ecosystem – the oceans. Specifically, it concerns the widespread decline in the plant life of those seas, which sustains our life on Earth. Here is what we know is happening now. Our oceans and their plant life are the largest source of oxygen on this planet. As all biology 101 veterans know, green plants use sunlight to covert CO2 into C – carbon and O2 – oxygen. Without a healthy ocean plant ecosystem, the atmosphere's oxygen content will wane and animal life (you and I included) may find ourselves gasping like novice climbers on the highest Himalayan peaks. But is this something we have to worry about right now? Alarmingly the answer is yes. The drop in atmospheric oxygen is already being observed. What is occurring, and we have good data to prove this, is that while the CO2 levels have climbed over the past century we are also witnessing a stunning decline in oceanic plant growth. During the past 20 years both the Pacific and Atlantic have lost more than 10% of their productivity. The loss in the North Pacific may be as high as 26%. This is not alarmist speculation. These numbers are based on decades of measurements from satellites and research ships which repeatedly confirm the startling decline. The Jan 2005 issue of Science featured studies of what has been called the Great Dying at the end of the Permian period 250 million years ago. During this unimaginable die off over 90% of ocean life and 75% the species on land became extinct. (In contrast, recall that the passing of all the dinosaur species happened only 65 million years ago and was a relatively small extinction event in the history of our planet.) According to the report's authors, this mass extermination was not triggered by a cataclysmic asteroid impact that darkened the sky for years with dust like that which doomed the dinosaurs. This Great Dying continued over thousands of years and was caused by a catastrophic decline in ocean plants which starved the atmosphere of oxygen and brought toxins in its wake. As the marine plants died away they were replaced by ocean life that metabolized sulfur compounds to generate its energy until the oceanic ecosystem produced little oxygen, but lots of poisonous hydrogen sulfide gas. But what caused the ocean plants to die in the first place? The authors indict the massive outbursts of Siberian volcanic activity which are known to have preceded the die off and released massive quantities of CO2. These ancient carbon emissions then set off widespread and complex changes in the global climate and ecology. At first the period of high CO2 supported lush plant life on land which also thrived in the warmer temperatures engendered by the greenhouse effect. The land became more lushly covered in green plants which initially offset the oxygen shortfall from the concurrent decline in the ocean's productivity. However, oceans cover over 70% of this planet and their ecology ultimately determines the global climate and living conditions on the Earth. But how did high CO2 levels come to jeopardize plant life in the sea? The answer as Dylan once said is blowing in the wind, and concerns the modest miracle of dust, or rather the absence thereof. This planet can be thought of as a single intimate ecosystem where life on land and in the oceans is indivisibly linked. Life in the seas is ultimately dependent on vital mineral nutrients which erode from the land and ride the winds to help fertilize the great oceanic womb. But life-giving minerals are not equal in abundance, importance, or their means of delivery. There are three key types of nutrients needed for marine plant life and thus the ecological health of our blue planet as a whole. The two most important and obvious are nitrogen and phosphorus, but a few micronutrients like iron are essential players as well. Since the air is 70% nitrogen, this element is easily available to all ecosystems, largely thanks to the ceaseless labors of legions of nitrogen fixing bacteria. We used to believe that nitrogen fixation was an art confined to soil bacteria, especially those cohabiting with the plant family of legumes. In the last 10 years, however, we have found nitrogen fixing bacteria widely dispersed and active in the oceans as well. They take nitrogen from the air and bond it to oxygen creating nitrates, a critical plant nutrient. The second critical nutrient, phosphorus is chiefly a terrestrial mineral and not an omnipresent gas. It is fully as important to plant growth as nitrogen, but given its geologic genesis its physical distribution varies widely by region. Fortunately, however, phosphorus is relatively water soluble and can move about the planet in aquatic form. Over the millennia, a great mass of phosphate has washed into the oceans and still remains there in dilute abundance. (There is another fascinating connection between phosphorous distribution and bird life but that story takes more telling than this short essay allows.) The final key to plant survival and fecundity is a small family of mineral micro-nutrients, including iron, manganese, zinc, and a few more. Plant life absolutely requires these chemicals but only in miniscule quantities compared to nitrates and phosphates. They are all relatively abundant in most surface soils, but are very scarce in the oceans far from land. Herein lies the critical link between life on land and in the sea and we can demonstrate that connection by focusing on the role and characteristics of the micro-nutrient iron. Iron is vital for successful photosynthesis. Many plants can capture solar energy without it but very inefficiently and those starved of iron often barely survive. Among the ocean plants, which constitute the vast majority of plant life on our blue-green planet, most live very far from land, the source of most iron. The way iron reaches the "open ocean" (which we shall define as those areas more than 100 miles from shore) is via the dust delivered by the wind. Usually this dust is simply rarified soil, which typically contains about 1-3% oxidized iron in the form of hematite, magnetite or iron ore particles. The growth and evolution of open ocean plant life was tied to the recurrent but sporadic arrival of this air-borne ferric blessing, and many species thus became dramatically responsive to its appearance in their midst. Phyto-plankton species constitute the great bulk of ocean plants, and they have been observed to undergo sudden spectacular blooms by seafarers and ocean scientists for centuries. Just what triggered these blooms was not understood until recently but some early observers did suspect a correlation with wind-borne dust. We now know for certain from both satellite and research ship studies that when dust storms blow out to sea from the great dry land regions of the earth, they leave broad green trails across the stretches of ocean that they cross. We also know that dust travels vast distances. For example, atmospheric research stations high in the Swiss mountains are able to measure the fall of particles that originated from dust storms sweeping across the Gobi desert a few weeks before. Riding the prevailing winds, this micro manna circumnavigates the globe crossing both the North Pacific and North Atlantic on its way to Switzerland. And all along these aerial pathways, the ocean's plant life waits patiently below for its seminal share of the Gobi's ferric windfall. Unfortunately, the total amount of this life-seeding dust in the global atmosphere has greatly diminished in the last few decades. This reduction is largely due to the rising atmospheric CO2 levels which are tied in turn to the burning of fossil fuels. The correlation between the roughly 45% increase in atmospheric CO2 and the decline in wind-borne dust and ocean productivity is a modestly complicated story, but one that we all should understand. First, CO2 as an essential phyto-nutrient can enhance plant growth by several mechanisms of varying efficacy. CO2 has the most dramatic effect on terrestrial plants living in the driest areas. In these regions plants trade precious H2O for CO2 and as CO2 becomes more plentiful, the exchange rate improves and plants like desert grasses can retain more water, stay greener longer, and extend their growing season. This extends the land's protective ground cover both in terms of time and space, which in turn diminishes wind erosion and the ocean-fertilizing dust available in the air. The fact that dry lands are a little greener each year and are contributing less dust to the atmosphere is very well established by many scientific studies. (The effect is compounded by the spread of irrigation and modern agriculture which has also "greened" millions of arid acres and slashed their dust contributions as well.) The alarming ongoing decline in ocean productivity is also now well documented, and correlates persuasively with the developments noted above. More to come… this is just an early draft…. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 10 08:44:33 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1AGhulw020151; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 08:43:57 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1AGhqf3020101; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 08:43:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 08:43:52 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type; b=hrEBpvJY+9NZUbz40ZP8JulffAiUrA6B8xDSvdGAB94klqaRFl9dGdJ2CQwirlz0; Message-ID: <410-22005241015436490 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: SOLVING REALLY BIG PROBLEMS Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 09:43:06 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940edd93990f7bb07f0e0394ffe2f73bd76350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.117.118 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57655 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene's excellent treatise on Global Warming is worthy of praise. A Liquid Nitrogen fuel economy (as opposed to hydrogen) for "Cryocars" and other LN2-powered vehicles ranging from scooters to mail trucks would concurrently offer a way to extract CO2 and particulate pollutants from the atmosphere. LN2-powered vehicles function well at 60 below zero and even better at 100 degrees above (offering great air conditioning to boot). Apparently the effort in this direction (University of Washington) was quashed before it got beyond preliminary trials: http://www.aa.washington.edu/AERP/CRYOCAR/CryoCar.htm "Researchers at the University of Washington are developing a new zero-emission automobile propulsion concept that uses liquid nitrogen as the fuel. The principle of operation is like that of a steam engine, except there is no combustion involved. Instead, liquid nitrogen at –320° F (–196° C) is pressurized and then vaporized in a heat exchanger by the ambient temperature of the surrounding air. This heat exchanger is like the radiator of a car but instead of using air to cool water, it uses air to heat and boil liquid nitrogen. The resulting high-pressure nitrogen gas is fed to an engine that operates like a reciprocating steam engine, converting pressure to mechanical power. The only exhaust is nitrogen, which is the major constituent of our atmosphere" "As with all alternative energy storage media, the energy density (W-hr/kg) of liquid nitrogen is relatively low when compared to gasoline but better than that of readily available battery systems. Studies indicate that liquid nitrogen automobiles will have significant performance and environmental advantages over electric vehicles. A liquid nitrogen car with a 60-gallon tank will have a potential range of up to 200 miles, or more than twice that of a typical electric car." Frederick. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 10 09:14:48 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1AHEPlw005592; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 09:14:26 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1AHELlx005548; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 09:14:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 09:14:21 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <3k77vd$hkpnsc mxip10a.cluster1.charter.net> X-Ironport-AV: i="3.88,193,1102309200"; d="scan'208"; a="592240524:sNHT30764912" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.12 (webedge20-101-197-20030912) From: To: CC: Subject: Re: Re: SOLVING REALLY BIG PROBLEMS Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 17:14:10 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <2kJOj.A.oWB.sZ5CCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57656 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: From: Frederick Sparber > Jones Beene's excellent treatise on Global Warming is > worthy of praise. > A Liquid Nitrogen fuel economy (as opposed to hydrogen) > for "Cryocars" and other LN2-powered vehicles ranging > from scooters to mail trucks would concurrently offer > a way to extract CO2 and particulate pollutants from > the atmosphere. ... > "Researchers at the University of Washington are > developing a new zero-emission automobile propulsion > concept that uses liquid nitrogen as the fuel. For those curious about nitrogen powered engine technology that is currently under development in other parts of the globe check out: http://www.perendev-power.com/contacts.htm and http://www.perendev-power.com/home.htm It would not surprise me if the University of Washington ended up having a battle on their hands as Perendev has also been hard a work developing the same technology for quite some time. I would think they might consider claiming a patent infringement. Steve Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 10 09:22:45 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1AHMSlw008980; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 09:22:29 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1AHMQ6W008961; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 09:22:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 09:22:26 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20050210092351.030dd460 mail.dlsi.net> X-Sender: steven%newenergytimes.com mail.dlsi.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 09:25:23 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: Suppressed science web site In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.20050210131055.006864ac pop.freeserve.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57657 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: That site is the brian-child of former mathematics grad student Rochus Boerner (Arizona State) who moved back to Germany last year. > > >http://www.suppressedscience.net/ > > > >http://www.suppressedscience.net/physics.html > > >Many thanks for those two URLs Jed. They contain >some very useful stuff. It's nice to have it all >together in one document. > >Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 10 10:01:29 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1AI1Blw029842; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 10:01:12 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1AI161l029795; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 10:01:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 10:01:06 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001201c50f9a$7389fb50$0500a8c0 nixlaptop> From: "Nick Palmer" To: References: <20050210154502.73829.qmail web81110.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: SOLVING REALLY BIG PROBLEMS Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 18:00:42 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: <4j64-C.A.VRH.fF6CCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57658 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones, I think your post was spot on. If one looks at the geologic record there is evidence that there are several stable atmospheric thermal states signposted by different levels of atmospheric CO2. It is what happens to conditions for life during the changeover periods that concerns me. You pinpoint the dangers of runaway climate change accurately and it is precisely this danger which seems to be discounted at Government levels, inasmuch as an argument they advance is the "we must delay until the science is certain" one. As I am sure you appreciate, this is an insane risk. By the time the final verdict as to whether humans can definitively screw up the climate is in, it will be much too late to do anything about it. Putting excess levels of sequestered carbon from fossil fuels back into the atmosphere is experimenting with the climate plain and simple. We cannot afford to complete the experiment to see what happens because the consequences of doing so could be catastrophic. We cannot wait for the verdict of science - we need STRATEGY now. I have long held the view that cold fusion (or Blacklightpower etc) holds out great hope because, frankly, humanity en masse seems too stupid to take the necessary action for itself. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 10 11:19:29 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1AJJ8As004632; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 11:19:09 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1AJIswX004504; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 11:18:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 11:18:54 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050210141459.02979d70 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 14:18:45 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Frank Close still bragging about his role in CF Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57659 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Google Alerts brought me this little gem: http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/SC0502/S00025.htm I am sure Close himself wrote the blurb announcing this lecture at the Royal Society of New Zealand. . He and the other hard core components are amazing. I'll bet they have not seen a single paper since 1989. He probably does not have a clue what is happening at Mitsubishi, for example. It would be fun to plant a mole in the audience at the Society, to ask him about Mitsubishi during the Q&A session. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 10 11:19:41 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1AJJCAs004680; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 11:19:13 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1AJJ4pM004604; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 11:19:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 11:19:04 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 14:16:47 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: FW: charging for energy consumption. In-reply-to: To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57660 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > While modern physics represents all forms of energy as equivalent through the > conservation laws, is every form of energy consumption morally equal? .e.g. > Some types of energy consumption keep people from freezing. Is this use of > energy morally equivalent to the energy used to operate a shopping mall? > > I view some forms of energy consumption as a public good and these should be > provided free of charge. Of course the taxpayer will ultimately pay but > consider how the modern highway system was built. > > > Harry Wisdom rather than morality might be a better a word, but I think what is wise is also good and moral. I am concerned with the direction of energy consumption and not the direction of energy generation. The way we charge for energy means the values of capitalism are penetrating into every nook and cranny of our private lives, since our private lives do require the consumption of energy. I now think we are in the midst of social crisis and not an energy crisis. The spiritually disenfranchised want a source of 'free energy' as a social prophylactic against capitalism. I would like to imagine that CF or some other over unity device could offer such a prophylactic but I am beginning to believe the only real solution is a State sponsored solution. Harry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 10 11:24:13 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1AJNeAs006891; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 11:23:42 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1AJLwUL006015; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 11:21:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 11:21:58 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050210141943.02b0a850 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 14:21:06 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Frank Close still bragging about his role in CF Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_9176125==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57661 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --=====================_9176125==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I wrote: "He and the other hard core components are amazing." I meant "opponents." That is what you get when you dictate a message to voice input and press the "send" key without even looking at it. - Jed --=====================_9176125==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" I wrote:

"He and the other hard core components are amazing."

I meant "opponents." That is what you get when you dictate a message to voice input and press the "send" key without even looking at it.

- Jed
--=====================_9176125==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 10 11:36:11 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1AJZgfI013189; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 11:35:43 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1AJZaqo013138; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 11:35:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 11:35:36 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type; b=YuffJegqEZFWKOJXrmQ1UCjzuaqZanT7+mbnpYQ5qpsNWN4DhIPxKwbjqQCVLBVv; Message-ID: <410-220052410183446940 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Re: SOLVING REALLY BIG PROBLEMS Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 12:34:46 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940b366ffcbf519dcaa4119c1d1ec6d497d350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.162.22 Resent-Message-ID: <8kV4E.A.AND.He7CCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57662 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Steve Vincent Johnson > > From: Frederick Sparber. > > > A Liquid Nitrogen fuel economy (as opposed to hydrogen) > > for "Cryocars" and other LN2-powered vehicles ranging > > from scooters to mail trucks would concurrently offer > > a way to extract CO2 and particulate pollutants from > > the atmosphere. > Add Pogo Sticks (and articulated robotics) to that range of vehicles, Stephen. Leapin Lizards, two thousand leaps per liter. Eat your heart out, Dean "Segway" Kamen. :-) Beautiful looking LN2 Motor Package at : http://www.perendev-power.com/home_nitrogen.htm But, 1600 Km (almost a thousand miles) on 25 liters of LN2, sounds a bit far-fetched. > For those curious about nitrogen powered engine technology that is currently under development in other parts of the globe check out: > > http://www.perendev-power.com/contacts.htm > > and > > http://www.perendev-power.com/home.htm > > It would not surprise me if the University of Washington ended up having a battle on their hands as Perendev has also been hard a work developing the same technology for quite some time. I would think they might consider claiming a patent infringement. > They dropped it (probably under duress) several years ago. Not too hard for special interests to put the squeeze on the research direction of Universities. Frederick > Steve Vincent Johnson > www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 10 12:29:27 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1AKT7fI009629; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 12:29:07 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1AKT3vv009605; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 12:29:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 12:29:03 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <3k01ib$lt2arn mxip19a.cluster1.charter.net> X-Ironport-AV: i="3.88,193,1102309200"; d="scan'208"; a="735128439:sNHT21133088" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.12 (webedge20-101-197-20030912) From: To: CC: Subject: How useful is liquid N2 if as a fuel source? Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 20:28:43 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <3nKnn.A.zVC.OQ8CCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57663 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ok Vorts, what do all you Big Guns (and you know who you are) have to say about using liquid N2 as a viable fuel source? I believe liquid N2 is fairly cheap to make, costing around or slightly less than a gallon of milk volume wise. N2 is a commonly used product. It?s used in many applications from freezing sperm to making super conductive devices. N2 is a plentiful element. Seventy percent of our atmosphere comprises unbound nitrogen. No energy would be expended cracking N2 from other elements like O2 as we would have to do in order to get H2. I would imagine the most difficult stumbling blocks in running N2 based "steam" engines would be to make sure all the moving parts don't freeze up, literally, or that critical parts don't become too cryogenically brittle and shatter under normal stresses. Brings a whole new meaning to the word: "freezer burn". Ironic when one considers the fact that N2 typically doesn't burn or explode in a dangerous manner as combining oxygen and hydrogen would in our atmosphere. How much energy is expended producing liquid N2, and how would this potential resource compare to equivalent alternative fuel source energy carriers. Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 10 12:32:55 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1AKWCfI011282; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 12:32:12 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1AKW785011203; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 12:32:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 12:32:07 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 11:31:39 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: SOLVING REALLY BIG PROBLEMS Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57665 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 7:45 AM 2/10/5, Jones Beene wrote: >We are 15-25 years away from a "run-away" greenhouse >effect now. Is this just a guess? It seems to me entirely possible we may be a runaway mode right now. Measurements of the tundra surface show methane release is increasing and the area of thawing regions are increasing. The arctic is warming and the warming produces a strong postitive feedback effect. The environment has a capacity to convert CO2 to oxygen that is inversely related to temperature. It could take a long time to cook us all, but that doesn't change the fact that a feedback driven runaway is unstoppable except possibly by unprecedented world scale efforts, or a dramatic shift in ocean currents. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 10 12:33:08 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1AKWHfI011342; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 12:32:19 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1AKW46S011187; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 12:32:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 12:32:04 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 11:31:32 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: SOLVING REALLY BIG PROBLEMS Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57664 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 1:23 AM 2/11/5, John Berry wrote: >But what effect would this have on satellites and future spaceships? >If this is a good idea (and I doubt it) the orbit of the particles would >have to be limited so they are easy to steer round. > >Horace Heffner wrote: [snip] >>This is really a last ditch effort, and may be totally unnecessary. There >>is enough methane hydrate in the Northern hemisphere to meet all our needs >>for generations, probably well over 1x10^14 CF. If that gas can be >>produced and converted to hydrogen, without burning the carbon in the >>process, and all the carbon in the gas is converted to construction >>materials, the carbon dioxide in the earth's atmosphere hopefully would >>diminish at a sufficient rate to avoid runaway warming. [snip] This concept in general and the issues you raise were developed and debated in the very recent thread "A last resort attack on global warming". You can review it at . The concept was proposed as a final option in the event of *runaway* global warming, which could make earth like venus, with a surface temperature above boiling. Better to do without GPS, communications satellites etc. than to stew all life. However, there is a launch window through the polar regions, and possibly even directly through the nano-belt provided appropriate external nano-particle shielding is provided, possibly aerogel: (URL courtesy of Terry Blanton.) All other means should of course be pursued first, including production of methane hydrates and conversion of that methane to hydogen, nuclear power, solar power, wind power, geothermal power. At the same time conservation measures, which have barely been utilized, may have the capacity to get us half way there. Also, read the post "Message from Russ George about ocean CO2". This is really stunning information. It may be possible to reduce atmospheric CO2 by fertilizing the oceans with iron. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 10 12:33:16 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1AKWPfI011373; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 12:32:25 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1AKWCSS011287; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 12:32:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 12:32:13 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 11:31:36 -0900 To: fjsparber earthlink.net, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Albedo Modification vs Orbiting Lime Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57666 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 8:46 AM 2/10/5, Frederick Sparber wrote: >Got through the Realty Problem, Now for the Reality Problem > >White marble chips ( prone to acid rain degradation) and other reflective >roofing >materials (Gypsum, made by the Megaton by power plant Sulfur Cleaning) on >most housing could lower the earth's temperature by altering the Albedo >(at will). > >When it gets too cold, change the roofing.. :-) Coincidentally, I resurfaced my flat tar roof last summer. I used a nylon fabric imbedded in a siliconized rubber containing zinc oxide, a combination intended for use on mobile homes and RV's, but which still seems to have worked well on my flat roof. It makes for a very reflective roof. My dark sunglasses barely made the glare tolerable. Living in Alaska, I have no air conditioning. However, things have been heating up here, and sometimes in the summer the house gets uncomfortably warm. The new white roof was intended to take care of this problem, and it did a great job. Here, it doesn't matter in the winter that it is white, because it is covered with snow anyway. The heating bills may be a bit higher in spring and fall though, but heating is cheaper than cooling. In lower lattitudes and on pitched roofs it is possible, on south facing roof surfaces, to make "stepped" shingles that are white on top and black on the sides, possibly with a slight overhang of the white surface or a receeding incline of the black surface. This achieve a high reflectivity when the sun is overhead in summer, and absorbtion when the sun is low in winter. A low pitch white roof with a large overhang, covering a building with a dark southern wall, would have a similar seasonally adjusted effect. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 10 13:13:10 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1ALClfI028241; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 13:12:51 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1ALCjZR028220; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 13:12:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 13:12:45 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: <4e2f2b9f-dcaf-42bb-932c-f48785185e5b> Message-ID: <007a01c50fb5$3c6f1fe0$e741ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <3k01ib$lt2arn mxip19a.cluster1.charter.net> Subject: Re: How useful is liquid N2 if as a fuel source? Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 16:10:38 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: <6FNpaB.A.24G.M58CCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57667 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Steve wrote: > Ok Vorts, what do all you Big Guns (and you know who you are) have to say about using liquid N2 as a viable fuel source? In short, liquid N2 ****is not a FUEL source****. At best it is an energy transfer medium, like a battery or compressed air. It also has a definite half life. It will not stay liquid at room temperature by just pressurizing it, like CO2 or LNG. It must boil - slowly but surely - so don't leave your car in the garage for a week and expect to find any liquid N2 to make it go. If you are willing to tow the car to the LN2 station and fill it up just before that trip, it's fine. You have to expend energy to liquify air to get the LN2. And then spend energy to get it to the point of use. And lose stroed energy from the time of liquefaction to the time of use. Valiant efforts are being made to make H2 a viable transportation fuel. While we are contemplating big problems, think about the essential role of air and ocean transport to the viability of populations the world over. If fuel reserves really get bad, we may divert those to air and ocean transport. I have the impression that one of the most efficient combusiton engines at present is the gas turbine, which is being used on new ships as well as aircraft. It is notable that FedEx bought a significant quantity of the new AirBus giant aircraft -- 800 passangers in the people version. Mike Carrell > > I believe liquid N2 is fairly cheap to make, costing around or slightly less than a gallon of milk volume wise. N2 is a commonly used product. It?s used in many applications from freezing sperm to making super conductive devices. N2 is a plentiful element. Seventy percent of our atmosphere comprises unbound nitrogen. No energy would be expended cracking N2 from other elements like O2 as we would have to do in order to get H2. > > I would imagine the most difficult stumbling blocks in running N2 based "steam" engines would be to make sure all the moving parts don't freeze up, literally, or that critical parts don't become too cryogenically brittle and shatter under normal stresses. > > Brings a whole new meaning to the word: "freezer burn". Ironic when one considers the fact that N2 typically doesn't burn or explode in a dangerous manner as combining oxygen and hydrogen would in our atmosphere. > > How much energy is expended producing liquid N2, and how would this potential resource compare to equivalent alternative fuel source energy carriers. > > Steven Vincent Johnson > www.OrionWorks.com > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 10 13:25:28 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1ALPCfI001063; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 13:25:13 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1ALPAC7001041; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 13:25:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 13:25:10 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20050210132553.0305f268 mail.dlsi.net> X-Sender: steven%newenergytimes.com mail.dlsi.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 13:28:02 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: Frank Close still bragging about his role in CF In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050210141943.02b0a850 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57668 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hey Jed, You have my synthesis. The same think happens with my voice re-order system two. Steve At 02:21 PM 2/10/2005 -0500, you wrote: >I wrote: > >"He and the other hard core components are amazing." > >I meant "opponents." That is what you get when you dictate a message to >voice input and press the "send" key without even looking at it. > >- Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 10 13:27:09 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1ALQrfI001665; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 13:26:53 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1ALQoET001638; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 13:26:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 13:26:50 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <01ab01c50fb6$6b8d1600$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: Subject: Re: SOLVING REALLY BIG PROBLEMS Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 13:21:00 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57669 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace, > Is this just a guess? There have been a number of recent computer simulations. The number that keeps popping up, such as in this Oxford University report, is that dangerous levels of climate change will happen as early as 2026. Other studies how sooner but this date of 2026 seems most accurate for such things as the total extinction of seals, polar bears etc. and methane levels which will cause human deaths in large numbers in artic regions. http://baltimorechronicle.com/021005Davidson.shtml The United States is the only country with land in the Arctic region that has not signed the Kyoto Protocol. This is a critical step because as you are no doubt aware, the Northern ice cap is warming at twice the global rate... That is probably why you feel that "runaway" has already begun. But in some areas, there is little or no warming, which is why there is any argument at all. If we could send all the skeptics of global warming to Alaska for a tour of the situation, there would probably be no skeptics left who were not on the petro-payroll. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 10 13:35:06 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1ALYgfI004788; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 13:34:46 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1ALYd4V004760; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 13:34:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 13:34:39 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050210160431.02ab24c8 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 16:19:03 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: How to appear in the blogoshere? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_3463125==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57670 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --=====================_3463125==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed From time to time I notice that bloggers have established links to our web page. Here is an example: http://atomicmotor.blogspot.com/ I have been thinking that it would be nice to introduce cold fusion to more people in the Blogosphere, in order to promote the field. The problem is, I know nothing about blogs. I have not read them. A couple of weeks ago I set out to learn more about them. Specifically, I wanted to find out: Which are the influential blogs, and is there a way to contact the authors? It is nearly impossible to contact influential media figures such as Bill Moyers. They get so much mail, they have to hire flunkies to sort out information and protect them from the outside world. Even if you do get through to one, there is no point, because these people will not risk their reputations to endorse cold fusion -- or even talk about it. However, my guess is that minor media figures might take a risk. Also, it is usually easy to reach them. A column in a regional newspaper such as the St. Paul Star Tribune probably includes the author's e-mail address. I suppose many blogs also include a way to contact the author directly. Anyway, I set out to learn about these blog things . . . and I was not impressed. Most of them seem poorly written and unorganized. Most appear to be right wing political diatribes, or self-centered gabbing about nothing in particular, or recursive comments about the blogosphere itself. So, if anyone in the audience here at Vortex is a blog aficionado, please do me a favor and contact them on behalf of LENR-CANR.org and my book. It would probably be better if the message came from other people, rather than from me. I have nothing against self-promotion, especially since I am not charging anything for the book so there can be no accusation of commercial interest or spam. But it still might look better if other people introduce the topic. There are two reasons I would like to promote the book as opposed to other material on the web site: 1. I would like to expand our audience, and I think the book may have broader public appeal than most of the papers. Perhaps there are other papers on the site that might appeal to a layman. Perhaps we should add some? Plus, as I say in the introduction, the book is intended to be a manifesto. That is, I hope it helps trigger political action. Readers have downloaded 1162 copies. That is gratifying, but it is not enough to have a political impact. 2. Technically oriented people who are looking for information on cold fusion already find us, quite easily, via Google and other search tools. Roughly a third of our visitors come from these sources. This does not necessarily mean readers have decided to look for cold fusion information on their own. My guess is that someone tells his friend, "hey, have a look at this LENR thing on the web" and people go to a search tool first. By the way, the total number of downloads since we began is now roughly 300,000, and the visitor count is roughly 590,000. The numbers from before last April are impossible to establish, but that is a conservative. estimate. It excludes things such as one person downloading the same paper several times in one hour, and the many robot readers from Google, Yahoo and so on. - Jed --=====================_3463125==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" From time to time I notice that bloggers have established links to our web page. Here is an example:

http://atomicmotor.blogspot.com/

I have been thinking that it would be nice to introduce cold fusion to more people in the Blogosphere, in order to promote the field. The problem is, I know nothing about blogs. I have not read them. A couple of weeks ago I set out to learn more about them. Specifically, I wanted to find out: Which are the influential blogs, and is there a way to contact the authors?

It is nearly impossible to contact influential media figures such as Bill Moyers. They get so much mail, they have to hire flunkies to sort out information and protect them from the outside world. Even if you do get through to one, there is no point, because these people will not risk their reputations to endorse cold fusion -- or even talk about it. However, my guess is that minor media figures might take a risk. Also, it is usually easy to reach them. A column in a regional newspaper such as the St. Paul Star Tribune probably includes the author's e-mail address. I suppose many blogs also include a way to contact the author directly.

Anyway, I set out to learn about these blog things . . . and I was not impressed. Most of them seem poorly written and unorganized. Most appear to be right wing political diatribes, or self-centered gabbing about nothing in particular, or recursive comments about the blogosphere itself.

So, if anyone in the audience here at Vortex is a blog aficionado, please do me a favor and contact them on behalf of LENR-CANR.org and my book. It would probably be better if the message came from other people, rather than from me. I have nothing against self-promotion, especially since I am not charging anything for the book so there can be no accusation of commercial interest or spam. But it still might look better if other people introduce the topic.

There are two reasons I would like to promote the book as opposed to other material on the web site:

1. I would like to expand our audience, and I think the book may have broader public appeal than most of the papers. Perhaps there are other papers on the site that might appeal to a layman. Perhaps we should add some? Plus, as I say in the introduction, the book is intended to be a manifesto. That is, I hope it helps trigger political action. Readers have downloaded 1162 copies. That is gratifying, but it is not enough to have a political impact.

2. Technically oriented people who are looking for information on cold fusion already find us, quite easily, via Google and other search tools. Roughly a third of our visitors come from these sources. This does not necessarily mean readers have decided to look for cold fusion information on their own. My guess is that someone tells his friend, "hey, have a look at this LENR thing on the web" and people go to a search tool first.


By the way, the total number of downloads since we began is now roughly 300,000, and the visitor count is roughly 590,000. The numbers from before last April are impossible to establish, but that is a conservative.  estimate. It excludes things such as one person downloading the same paper several times in one hour, and the many robot readers from Google, Yahoo and so on.

- Jed
 --=====================_3463125==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 10 13:58:59 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1ALwNfI014291; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 13:58:24 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1ALwK7x014263; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 13:58:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 13:58:20 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <420BD969.3080704 ix.netcom.com> Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 15:00:09 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: SOLVING REALLY BIG PROBLEMS References: <002501c50f05$2d23c820$6601a8c0 msns.flt.ptd.net> In-Reply-To: <002501c50f05$2d23c820$6601a8c0 msns.flt.ptd.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57671 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Just a few words so as to reduce your feeling of being ignored. revtec wrote: > What is our collective goal regarding the commercialization of CF? > > Is it to reduce the level of CO2 emissions to reverse global warming? Yes, this is an important goal. > > Is it to improve the quality of life by providing an inexhaustable > source of cheap energy to everyone on the planet? Eventually mankind will run out of carbon-based energy. At this point civilization will collapse unless a substitute is found. Why not start now to solve this problem rather than waiting until the last minute, as is the usual approach? > > Perhaps the reduction in CO2 emissions will be more than offset by the > waste heat output of billions of CF engines, and that global warming > will accelerate by direct heating alone! Could it be that with > perfecting CF we are about to open pandora's box? Not possible. Mankind's use is too trivial compared to the sun and sources internal to the earth. > > I brought this up before without getting a single comment. Did I have > silent agreement with this concern from most of the group, am I > considered totally nuts, or maybe most subscribers dump every post from > revtec without reading a single word. I really don't know. > > God stuff is considered off topic in this forum, but I'm covinced that > it is central. Our perception of threats to our existance is directly > linked to our perception of God. Our attitudes toward "God sized" > problems are determined by our concept of God. The thermal condition of > this planet is set by the output of the sun. Compared to a one or two > percent fluctuation in solar radiation, anything humans can do down here > is totally irrelevant. Not true. We can change how much of the energy we get from the sun stays on earth. The earth is not a perfect absorber. Changes in the amount of CO2 and CH4 in the atmosphere changes the amount of energy retained by the earth. This is the issue, not the total amount of energy emitted by the sun. > > Christians think God has his hand on the solar thermostat. Athiests > think no one does. > > Christians trust God to dial it back if necessary in response to our > increased heat load. People, who either don't believe in God or don't > trust God, think we must master these adjustments ourselves. Anyone that thinks God is concerned about the survival of the human race has no understanding of how God works. Christianity teaches free will. If we as a species freely act in such a way to destroy our world, we are free to do so. Why would God care? Many species on other planets would have the common sense not to destroy their world so that intelligent life would go on. We would be just one more attempt to produce intelligent life that failed. The presumption that we are special to God is just too self-serving to be real or rational. > > Christians are thought callous for not recognizing the need to tackle > "God sized" problems while there are nonbelievers amoung us who think > the solution to planetary thermal overload and other environmental > problems is to eliminate five of the six billion people on the Earth's > surface. Where did you get this idea? This is not only not true, but not even rational. > > For anyone who wants to play the God game, the stakes are fantastically > high. > > What will be the most likely cause of calamity: trusting God or playing God? The route to survival is to observe how nature works and adjust behavior to be consistent with a behavior that allows survival. This is true of individuals as well as nations. It does not involve playing God, but simply understanding the consequences of one's actions. The US, especially, has lost the ability to understand the consequence of actions, instead has substituted what a few people WANT to happen. Unfortunately, these wants seem to be justified by assuming that this is what God wants. The arrogance is overwhelming. Regards, Ed Storms > > Jeff From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 10 14:02:16 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1AM1wfI017052; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 14:01:58 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1AM1rG6016992; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 14:01:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 14:01:53 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20050210134935.03102468 mail.dlsi.net> X-Sender: steven%newenergytimes.com mail.dlsi.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 14:04:53 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: How to appear in the blogoshere? In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050210160431.02ab24c8 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57673 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: You have my sympathies Jed. Although I charge for my CF book, I, like you, didn't write it to make money. Getting out the word of my book, and the subject, is a tough sell right now and I think it's all about what you said, "these people will not risk their reputations to endorse cold fusion -- or even talk about it." My strategy has been to spend massive amounts of time contacting any and every person I know or learn of that shows some sign of interest and bend their ear a bit. I think you'll agree, this subject should be paramount in scientific and respectable circles. At this point in time, it seems like the strong interest is still clearly in the "fringe." Regardless, I do what I can, figuring that every little bit will help and that the results will show up some day. The other part of my strategy has been to avoid preaching to the deaf, as well as the converted. Steve From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 10 14:03:37 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1AM3IfI017647; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 14:03:18 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1AM3Ehi017611; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 14:03:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 14:03:14 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20050210140458.030cce18 mail.dlsi.net> X-Sender: steven%newenergytimes.com mail.dlsi.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 14:06:16 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Thanks V & Bill B & Donations? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57674 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I also want to say to the Vortex group that I really appreciate the recent insightful, articulate and well-reasoned discussions that have occurred here of late. While there may not be any streets or homes here, this is clearly a well-defined and functional community. It is a place that I can count on for intelligent scientific debate and discussion. Thank you Bill B. Hey Bill, how about a Paypal-type system so we can donate? Steve From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 10 14:21:21 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1AMKxfI027158; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 14:21:00 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1AMKtxG027115; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 14:20:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 14:20:55 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=kXqv2j5f5Zob8w/+mnbn1JH3PvsCBqPob1RugqSVOgnG5Ljp7Abyc8llLUHGbNcI; Message-ID: <410-22005241021205610 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Thermally Rechargeable Batteries Based on Intercalation in Graphite Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 15:20:05 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940b7edffda1e328431fc52152d224910ca350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.117.176 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57675 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII This NASA sponsored research item caught my eye the other day. If this works as implied, low grade heat at 50 C to 150 C (176 F at 80 C, is the radiator coolant temp of your car) from solar, fossil fuel-burning power plants, not to mention CF etc., could change the global energy picture. http://www.nasatech.com/Briefs/Feb01/NPO19824.html "Storage batteries based on intercalation of lithium and bromine in graphite have been proposed. Like other storage batteries, these could be recharged electrically. Optionally, these batteries could also be recharged thermally at relatively low temperatures — by use of solar or waste heat, for example." Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

This NASA sponsored research item caught my eye the other day. If this works as implied, low grade heat
at 50 C to 150 C  (176 F at 80 C, is the radiator coolant temp of your car) from solar,
fossil fuel-burning power plants, not to mention CF etc., could change the global energy picture.
 
 
"Storage batteries based on intercalation of lithium and bromine in graphite have been proposed. Like other storage batteries, these could be recharged electrically. Optionally, these batteries could also be recharged thermally at relatively low temperatures — by use of solar or waste heat, for example."
 
Frederick
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 10 14:29:46 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1AMTTfI031661; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 14:29:30 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1AMScM8031141; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 14:28:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 14:28:38 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=XtanjfXJrRwjIr81W9vb+G9mOog3bbtyyIRTDsBGBo4rJnBD4pDWopH0ubIHLfHupahvw+opkvV/A6ylxsOy2nj7cTOnw7i1sWPCzpOX0UlV2FFLIt+nLHwK5i1Ybi0GWSuehHNN23xrnnP+G0WSzXYJn9x2FJIwULv4+xQoQGc= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 15:27:45 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: How to appear in the blogoshere? In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20050210134935.03102468 mail.dlsi.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050210160431.02ab24c8 pop.mindspring.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20050210134935.03102468 mail.dlsi.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j1AMSQfI031073 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57676 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Anyway, I set out to learn about these blog things . . . and I was not impressed. Most of them seem poorly written and unorganized. Most appear to be right wing political diatribes, or self-centered gabbing about nothing in particular, or recursive comments about the blogosphere itself. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>. congrats. this here is a nail, and thats a rather large hammer in your hand, and you connected the two quite well. the majority of the "blogosphere" (puke) is just that. there are some sites dedicated to new that are or were pretty big. i used to be on agonist a bunch before they changed things around (scoop.agonist.org, no www. ). and i used to post a bunch of "fringe" science stuff, but, since we had a few "real" scientists, that got ignored. my suggestion, if you see that youve been linked by a blog, go there, sign up, add a link on your website back to that blog, and talk with people on the commenting systems. that will draw people. that, and you can make your own blog. recent things that have come up, news items you got from vortex, ect, with your own thoughts and comments, and a space for people to comment. theres lots of canned blogging programs. find a blog you like the looks of, and search the faq, youll usually find some info on how they put their blog together. On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 14:04:53 -0800, Steven Krivit wrote: > You have my sympathies Jed. > > Although I charge for my CF book, I, like you, didn't write it to make > money. Getting out the word of my book, and the subject, is a tough sell > right now and I think it's all about what you said, "these people will not > risk their reputations to endorse cold fusion -- or even talk about it." > > My strategy has been to spend massive amounts of time contacting any and > every person I know or learn of that shows some sign of interest and bend > their ear a bit. I think you'll agree, this subject should be paramount in > scientific and respectable circles. At this point in time, it seems like > the strong interest is still clearly in the "fringe." > > Regardless, I do what I can, figuring that every little bit will help and > that the results will show up some day. The other part of my strategy has > been to avoid preaching to the deaf, as well as the converted. > > Steve > > -- "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 10 14:31:49 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1AMUBfQ031979; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 14:31:24 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1ALxRLG014840; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 13:59:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 13:59:27 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050210163754.02b01298 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 16:58:53 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: It is worse because it works better In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20050210132553.0305f268 mail.dlsi.net> References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050210141943.02b0a850 pop.mindspring.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20050210132553.0305f268 mail.dlsi.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_4944140==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57672 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --=====================_4944140==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Commenting on voice input Steven Krivit wrote: >Hey Jed, > >You have my synthesis. The same think happens with my voice re-order >system two. Actually, the latest release of Dragon NaturallySpeaking (Ver. 8) is greatly improved. For me anyway, this has given it an interesting and contradictory property which occasionally crops up in technology, to wit, it is worse because it works better. Once I get used to it, this version will be fine. But in the initial learning phase it makes the job harder, and increases the numbers of mistakes. It gives a false sense of reliability and ease of use. The words pop up on the screen so smoothly and rapidly, you tend to assume they must be right, and you do not bother to check. During WWII, human factors research was just beginning. Much of the early work was focused on aviation, especially on trying to enhance pilot performance and safety. One of the big problems was fatigue and discomfort from sitting in cramped cockpit seats for hours at a time. The seats were often uncomfortable, cold, and they vibrated. Engineers devised several new kinds of seats, installed them in airplanes and had pilots perform multihour flight tests. One of the seats was particularly comfortable. It was well padded and vibration free. But the test pilots did not like it because it insulated them too much from the airplane. It turned out they literally flew by the seat of their pants. (And they probably still do). They sensed vibrations, noise, change in temperature and other factors by feel -- often through the seat. The padded seat worked too well. - Jed --=====================_4944140==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Commenting on voice input Steven Krivit wrote:

Hey Jed,

You have my synthesis. The same think happens with my voice re-order system two.

Actually, the latest release of Dragon NaturallySpeaking (Ver. 8) is greatly improved. For me anyway, this has given it an interesting and contradictory property which occasionally crops up in technology, to wit, it is worse because it works better. Once I get used to it, this version will be fine. But in the initial learning phase it makes the job harder, and increases the numbers of mistakes. It gives a false sense of reliability and ease of use. The words pop up on the screen so smoothly and rapidly, you tend to assume they must be right, and you do not bother to check.

During WWII, human factors research was just beginning. Much of the early work was focused on aviation, especially on trying to enhance pilot performance and safety. One of the big problems was fatigue and discomfort from sitting in cramped cockpit seats for hours at a time. The seats were often uncomfortable, cold, and they vibrated. Engineers devised several new kinds of seats, installed them in airplanes and had pilots perform multihour flight tests. One of the seats was particularly comfortable. It was well padded and vibration free. But the test pilots did not like it because it insulated them too much from the airplane. It turned out they literally flew by the seat of their pants. (And they probably still do). They sensed vibrations, noise, change in temperature and other factors by feel -- often through the seat. The padded seat worked too well.

- Jed
--=====================_4944140==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 10 14:55:11 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1AMspfI011040; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 14:54:51 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1AMsR4D010888; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 14:54:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 14:54:27 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050210172644.02b1adb0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 17:53:48 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: How to appear in the blogoshere? In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20050210134935.03102468 mail.dlsi.net> References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050210160431.02ab24c8 pop.mindspring.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20050210134935.03102468 mail.dlsi.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_8245828==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57677 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --=====================_8245828==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Steven Krivit wrote: >My strategy has been to spend massive amounts of time contacting any and >every person I know or learn of that shows some sign of interest and bend >their ear a bit. Many of us have done that, for many years. I think the time may be ripe for a new campaign for two reasons. First, because we now have more material than ever before, including many more papers online, and the books by Beaudette, Krivit and Rothwell. Second, because the blogs have emerged as a somewhat new medium. When a new medium emerges it often presents a new opportunity. Think about the short history of the Internet. Discussion groups on CompuServe and sci.physics.fusion emerged first. They offered only a limited audience and they were ineffective, because messages posted to them soon scrolled away, and because they were infested by obnoxious, irrational opponents. Web pages came along next. They are a far better medium for scientific or technical information, because they organized, permanent, cross-linked and they present a coherent point of view. As everyone knows, there are now many web pages devoted to various aspects of cold fusion. A few years ago, blogs emerged. I have not paid much attention to them, but perhaps they offer yet another way to spread the word about cold fusion. Perhaps it is a late to be doing this; blog popularity may have already peaked. When a medium becomes saturated with information it becomes harder to have a large impact. Spam is an example of a medium we do not want to employ! National television and advertising in the New York Times are examples of media that we could not employ to promote cold fusion, because they are too expensive. Even if we had the money they would be a waste. Advertising on Google would also be a mistake, I think. Although if I won the lottery I might try it. Anyway, perhaps those of us who promote cold fusion informally from time to time should think about launching a new concerted effort to reach the blogosphere. I do not know how to go about doing that, so if any reader out there has suggestions, please let me know. Cold fusion began at the height of the fax machine era. Fax machines were a benighted means of communication. They managed to combine the worst features of several earlier technologies, being analog, low resolution, slow, short-lived (with thermal paper) *and* expensive. Copy machines and US mail would have been better! It is interesting to note that people who oppose cold fusion have not bothered to organize a web page, as far as I know. They are stuck in the primordial discussion group stage of the Internet, where memory is continually erased, and change and intellectual evolution are impossible. Primitive tribes live in a timeless stasis for similar reasons. They have no written memory. When your history is recorded only in spoken folklore, you cannot distinguish between events that occurred 50 years ago, 500 years ago, or only in your great-grandfather's imagination. - Jed --=====================_8245828==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Steven Krivit wrote:

My strategy has been to spend massive amounts of time contacting any and every person I know or learn of that shows some sign of interest and bend their ear a bit.

Many of us have done that, for many years. I think the time may be ripe for a new campaign for two reasons. First, because we now have more material than ever before, including many more papers online, and the books by Beaudette, Krivit and Rothwell. Second, because the blogs have emerged as a somewhat new medium.

When a new medium emerges it often presents a new opportunity. Think about the short history of the Internet. Discussion groups on CompuServe and sci.physics.fusion emerged first. They offered only a limited audience and they were ineffective, because messages posted to them soon scrolled away, and because they were infested by obnoxious, irrational opponents. Web pages came along next. They are a far better medium for scientific or technical information, because they organized, permanent, cross-linked and they present a coherent point of view. As everyone knows, there are now many web pages devoted to various aspects of cold fusion. A few years ago, blogs emerged. I have not paid much attention to them, but perhaps they offer yet another way to spread the word about cold fusion. Perhaps it is a late to be doing this; blog popularity may have already peaked. When a medium becomes saturated with information it becomes harder to have a large impact.

Spam is an example of a medium we do not want to employ!

National television and advertising in the New York Times are examples of media that we could not employ to promote cold fusion, because they are too expensive. Even if we had the money they would be a waste. Advertising on Google would also be a mistake, I think. Although if I won the lottery I might try it.

Anyway, perhaps those of us who promote cold fusion informally from time to time should think about launching a new concerted effort to reach the blogosphere. I do not know how to go about doing that, so if any reader out there has suggestions, please let me know.


Cold fusion began at the height of the fax machine era. Fax machines were a benighted means of communication. They managed to combine the worst features of several earlier technologies, being analog, low resolution, slow, short-lived (with thermal paper) *and* expensive. Copy machines and US mail would have been better!

It is interesting to note that people who oppose cold fusion have not bothered to organize a web page, as far as I know. They are stuck in the primordial discussion group stage of the Internet, where memory is continually erased, and change and intellectual evolution are impossible. Primitive tribes live in a timeless stasis for similar reasons. They have no written memory. When your history is recorded only in spoken folklore, you cannot distinguish between events that occurred 50 years ago, 500 years ago, or only in your great-grandfather's imagination.

- Jed
--=====================_8245828==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 10 15:21:48 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1ANLIfI023393; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 15:21:23 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1ANLFVV023350; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 15:21:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 15:21:15 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type; b=hhPs6wcwDtJTyhxUUDW7Tj10HPE/9P4fLeg7ZHlMUtWZgyOofxhNuigMxkm96Ohw; Message-ID: <410-220052410222038760 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: How useful is liquid N2 if as a fuel source? Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 16:20:39 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94047e04d5b785da219c8cef3b978ff6c0b350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.162.116 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57678 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Steven Vincent Johnson wrote > > I believe liquid N2 is fairly cheap to make, costing around or slightly less than a gallon of milk volume wise. > LOX from coal electricity costs about $140 per ton, so the LN2 by-product is about $200 per ton if you couldn't market the LOX which is being used for cleaner-burning power generation and industrial processes such as steel and glass manufacture glass-making Hydrogen Peroxide synthesis, medical oxygen and so on. N2 is a commonly used product. It's used in many applications from freezing sperm to making super conductive devices. N2 is a plentiful element. Seventy percent of our atmosphere comprises unbound nitrogen. No energy would be expended cracking N2 from other elements like O2 as we would have to do in order to get H2. > Yes and natural gas (CH4) conversion to H2 ( which is currently costing over $10.00 for 40 lbs) wastes lots of energy and pollutes with CO2. You will be hard put to get CH4 or Coal-Derived Hydrogen for less than $3.00 per gallon of gasoline equivalent. On top of that you can use power-plant waste heat (cogeneration engines) to run the Air Liquefaction Process. > > I would imagine the most difficult stumbling blocks in running N2 based "steam" engines would be to make sure all the moving parts don't freeze up, literally, or that critical parts don't become too cryogenically brittle and shatter under normal stresses. > Not likely, and you probably won't need a gearbox in your Cryocar. > > Brings a whole new meaning to the word: "freezer burn". Ironic when one considers the fact that N2 typically doesn't burn or explode in a dangerous manner as combining oxygen and hydrogen would in our atmosphere. > Right, and it doesn't pollute either. > > and how would this potential resource compare to equivalent alternative fuel source energy carriers. > Better, why else is it being suppressed? Frederick > > Steven Vincent Johnson > www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 10 15:29:41 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1ANTJfI027774; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 15:29:19 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1ANTH5A027761; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 15:29:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 15:29:17 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <020201c50fc7$8a5ebbe0$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <3k01ib$lt2arn mxip19a.cluster1.charter.net> <007a01c50fb5$3c6f1fe0$e741ccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> Subject: Re: How useful is liquid N2 if as a fuel source? Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 15:23:33 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57679 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mike wrote, > In short, liquid N2 ****is not a FUEL source****. At best it is an energy transfer medium, like a battery or compressed air. Yes, but we can muddy the water somewhat by proposing a liquid air hybrid. Liquid air can be a fuel, of sorts. Fred - what do you think about this.... Nitrogen is roughly 80% of air and has little value as an oxidizer. Oxygen is a strong oxidizer. All strong oxidizers can technically be called fuels, especially if they can be enriched to the level of being able to superoxidize water. Moreover, in the process of liquefying air, it is just as efficient (almost) to both liquefy and enrich the end product in oxygen. LOX has drawbacks and is not really needed. By compressing air in two stages (which is normal) and separating the "first" stage of expansion magnetically (oxygen has good paramagnetism, nitrogen no) then you can chill the second stage with the nitrogen separated from stage-one and not loose any significant energy. IOW producing liquid enriched air of about 40% O2 content is almost as energy efficient as producing LN, and you do end up with a "fuel" of sorts, and it is one with extraordinary "lust" for "free"electrons and it can superoxidize (burn) water. It is dangerous and must be handled carefully. More on those details in a latter post on how to use this speculative process to perhaps quadruple the energy released per unit of cryo-liquid carried - compared to normal LN. However, one must realize that unless the electricity used to liquefy air or any gas mixture is coming from a nuclear plant (or wind, solar etc), there will still be carbon released "somewhere" to make any cryo-liquid. Nevertheless, this still could be beneficial as the Carnot numbers make it more appealing than many realize. Plus during the cryogenic stages, some CO2 can be removed but not nearly as much as is produced in a coal fired plant making the electricity. It still beats a gasoline engine in all respects. This ability to separate magnetically is due to differences in electron distribution, called the Lewis structure. O2 has an unpaired electron on each atom. Molecules with unpaired electrons are paramagnetic and exhibit magnetic properties. With oxygen the magnetic properties are pretty dramatic, as the following images show. The Lewis structure of N2 does not have unpaired electrons. Molecules with no unpaired electrons that do not exhibit magnetic properties and are diamagnetic and very easy to separate in the first stage of a two stage liquefaction process . http://www.chem.uiuc.edu/clcwebsite/liquido2.html Think about it. What would you rather have - a real liquid fuel or a real chill.... Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 10 15:32:07 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1ANVifI029038; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 15:31:48 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1ANVbPt028976; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 15:31:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 15:31:37 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050210175558.02b51b28 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 18:31:10 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: SOLVING REALLY BIG PROBLEMS In-Reply-To: <420BD969.3080704 ix.netcom.com> References: <002501c50f05$2d23c820$6601a8c0 msns.flt.ptd.net> <420BD969.3080704 ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_10484656==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57680 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_10484656==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Edmund Storms wrote: >Eventually mankind will run out of carbon-based energy. At this point >civilization will collapse unless a substitute is found. Why not start now >to solve this problem rather than waiting until the last minute, as is the >usual approach? Of course I agree. But this leads to an interesting point. People promoting conventional energy conservation, cold fusion, hot fusion and other energy improvements have made a big mistake, in my opinion. They have been trying to tell the public that we are running out of energy a crisis is approaching and we must do something rather than wait until the last minute. That may be true, but it is the wrong message. People will see that there is still plenty of gas in the price is not really gone up relative to inflation, and they will ignore us. What you should say instead is: "Cold fusion will save money! It will work better. It will create many new opportunities. It will cause less pollution." Those with the themes I emphasized in the book, rather than talking about resource depletion. It is often said that the stone age did not and because we ran out of stones. People usually adapt new technologies because they work better, not because older resources are running out. However, there are some major exceptions to this rule, especially in the energy business. Old-growth hardwood forest firewood in the US really was depleted, and we were definitely running on a whale oil before we began using oil (underground oil, I mean). Oil production in the US peaked around 1974 and it has declined drastically. OPEC production peaked late last year, I think, just as Deffeyes predicted. There is no more available hydroelectric power, although there is a huge reservoir of untapped wind energy. It is a little ironic that we have, in fact, begun to run short of conventional energy, but that still is not a good "sales" message to promote cold fusion. Conservationists have cried wolf too often. They should have known better. Anyway, cold fusion has so many other outstanding advantages there is really no need to emphasize depletion. The original message starting this thread said: >>Christians are thought callous for not recognizing the need to tackle >>"God sized" problems while there are nonbelievers amoung us who think the >>solution to planetary thermal overload and other environmental problems >>is to eliminate five of the six billion people on the Earth's surface. Oh come now. No one in this forum has said anything like that! Engineers and scientists believe in solving people's problems, not in killing people off to bury the problem. Killing people -- or letting them die of AID or bird-flu, is like "fixing" a broken computer by bashing it with sledgehammer. (Okay, I have done that once and it was gratifying, but that sucker deserved it.) I myself hope that the terrestrial population will gradually be reduced to around 2 or 3 billion, perhaps with billions of other people living off planet if they want to. By the way, experts at the CDC and elsewhere are predicting that bird flu will probably infect people within a few years, because it remains pandemic among birds and of course virus evolution is rapid. If a virulent form crosses to the human population it will probably kill between 5 million and 1 billion people. A friend of mine at the CDC just left for Vietnam to work on this problem. Researchers have strongly suggested that governments worldwide fund the development of vaccinations and improved Third World poultry production facilities to prevent a pandemic. That is what scientists do -- they try to fix problems. Governments by and large are ignoring these recommendations. The U.S. government is spending $1 billion a week on war instead. It built several splendid new CDC facilities in response to 9/11 bio-threat hysteria, but it is now cutting back on funding for the professional staff and for equipment, so the splendid new buildings are sitting empty, and the clock is ticking, and the bird flu viruses -- contrary to the officially expressed views of the Cobb County Georgia Board of Education -- definitely are evolving. Here is a ghoulish question. If 50,000 children in Georgia are killed by bird flu, will the Board rethink its assertions and calls off the jihad against scientific knowledge? Probably not. - Jed --=====================_10484656==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Edmund Storms wrote:

Eventually mankind will run o= ut of carbon-based energy. At this point civilization will collapse unless a substitute is found. Why not start now to solve this problem rather than waiting until the last minute, as is the usual approach?

Of course I agree. But this leads to an interesting point. People promoting conventional energy conservation, cold fusion, hot fusion and other energy improvements have made a big mistake, in my opinion. They have been trying to tell the public that we are running out of energy a crisis is approaching and we must do something rather than wait until the last minute. That may be true, but it is the wrong message. People will see that there is still plenty of gas in the price is not really gone up relative to inflation, and they will ignore us. What you should say instead is: "Cold fusion will save money! It will work better. It will create many new opportunities. It will cause less pollution." Those with the themes I emphasized in the book, rather than talking about resource depletion.

It is often said that the stone age did not and because we ran out of stones. People usually adapt new technologies because they work better, not because older resources are running out. However, there are some major exceptions to this rule, especially in the energy business. Old-growth hardwood forest firewood in the US really was depleted, and we were definitely running on a whale oil before we began using oil (underground oil, I mean). Oil production in the US peaked around 1974 and it has declined drastically. OPEC production peaked late last year, I think, just as Deffeyes predicted. There is no more available hydroelectric power, although there is a huge reservoir of untapped wind energy.

It is a little ironic that we have, in fact, begun to run short of conventional energy, but that still is not a good "sales" message to promote cold fusion. Conservationists have cried wolf too often. They should have known better. Anyway, cold fusion has so many other outstanding advantages there is really no need to emphasize depletion.


The original message starting this thread said:

Christians are thought callous for not recognizing the need to tackle "God sized" problems while there are nonbelievers amoung us who think the solution to planetary thermal overload and other environmental problems is to eliminate five of the six billion people on the Earth's surface.

Oh come now. No one in this forum has said anything like that! Engineers and scientists believe in solving people's problems, not in killing people off to bury the problem. Killing people -- or letting them die of AID or bird-flu, is like "fixing" a broken computer by bashing it with sledgehammer. (Okay, I have done that once and it was gratifying, but that sucker deserved it.) I myself hope that the terrestrial population will gradually be reduced to around 2 or 3 billion, perhaps with billions of other people living off planet if they want to.

By the way, experts at the CDC and elsewhere are predicting that bird flu will probably infect people within a few years, because it remains pandemic among birds and of course virus evolution is rapid. If a virulent form crosses to the human population it will probably kill between 5 million and 1 billion people. A friend of mine at the CDC just left for Vietnam to work on this problem. Researchers have strongly suggested that governments worldwide fund the development of vaccinations and improved Third World poultry production facilities to prevent a pandemic. That is what scientists do -- they try to fix problems. Governments by and large are ignoring these recommendations. The U.S. government is spending $1 billion a week on war instead. It built several splendid new CDC facilities in response to 9/11 bio-threat hysteria, but it is now cutting back on funding for the professional staff and for equipment, so the splendid new buildings are sitting empty, and the clock is ticking, and the bird flu viruses -- contrary to the officially expressed views of the Cobb County Georgia Board of Education -- definitely are evolving.

Here is a ghoulish question. If 50,000 children in Georgia are killed by bird flu, will the Board rethink its assertions and calls off the jihad against scientific knowledge? Probably not.

- Jed
--=====================_10484656==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 10 16:29:26 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1B0TBfI025311; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 16:29:12 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1B0TA9G025292; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 16:29:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 16:29:10 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 19:26:29 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: How to appear in the blogoshere? In-reply-to: <6.2.0.14.2.20050210160431.02ab24c8 pop.mindspring.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_/2K7nt95xhdqb2OlDOJbTQ)" User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: <9SRGb.A.GLG.Vx_CCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57681 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --Boundary_(ID_/2K7nt95xhdqb2OlDOJbTQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Persuade a program like the Daily Planet on the Discovery Channel to do a piece on the recent DOE review of CF and other developments in the field. As a service to their viewers they normally post links to related to the piece on their web site. Harry Jed Rothwell at jedrothwell mindspring.com wrote: >From time to time I notice that bloggers have established links to our web page. Here is an example: http://atomicmotor.blogspot.com/ I have been thinking that it would be nice to introduce cold fusion to more people in the Blogosphere, in order to promote the field. The problem is, I know nothing about blogs. I have not read them. A couple of weeks ago I set out to learn more about them. Specifically, I wanted to find out: Which are the influential blogs, and is there a way to contact the authors? It is nearly impossible to contact influential media figures such as Bill Moyers. They get so much mail, they have to hire flunkies to sort out information and protect them from the outside world. Even if you do get through to one, there is no point, because these people will not risk their reputations to endorse cold fusion -- or even talk about it. However, my guess is that minor media figures might take a risk. Also, it is usually easy to reach them. A column in a regional newspaper such as the St. Paul Star Tribune probably includes the author's e-mail address. I suppose many blogs also include a way to contact the author directly. Anyway, I set out to learn about these blog things . . . and I was not impressed. Most of them seem poorly written and unorganized. Most appear to be right wing political diatribes, or self-centered gabbing about nothing in particular, or recursive comments about the blogosphere itself. So, if anyone in the audience here at Vortex is a blog aficionado, please do me a favor and contact them on behalf of LENR-CANR.org and my book. It would probably be better if the message came from other people, rather than from me. I have nothing against self-promotion, especially since I am not charging anything for the book so there can be no accusation of commercial interest or spam. But it still might look better if other people introduce the topic. There are two reasons I would like to promote the book as opposed to other material on the web site: 1. I would like to expand our audience, and I think the book may have broader public appeal than most of the papers. Perhaps there are other papers on the site that might appeal to a layman. Perhaps we should add some? Plus, as I say in the introduction, the book is intended to be a manifesto. That is, I hope it helps trigger political action. Readers have downloaded 1162 copies. That is gratifying, but it is not enough to have a political impact. 2. Technically oriented people who are looking for information on cold fusion already find us, quite easily, via Google and other search tools. Roughly a third of our visitors come from these sources. This does not necessarily mean readers have decided to look for cold fusion information on their own. My guess is that someone tells his friend, "hey, have a look at this LENR thing on the web" and people go to a search tool first. By the way, the total number of downloads since we began is now roughly 300,000, and the visitor count is roughly 590,000. The numbers from before last April are impossible to establish, but that is a conservative. estimate. It excludes things such as one person downloading the same paper several times in one hour, and the many robot readers from Google, Yahoo and so on. - Jed --Boundary_(ID_/2K7nt95xhdqb2OlDOJbTQ) Content-type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Re: How to appear in the blogoshere?
Persuade a program like the Daily Planet on the Discovery Channel
to do a piece on the recent DOE review of CF and other developments in the field.
As a service to their viewers they normally post links to related to the piece on their
web site.



Harry


Jed Rothwell at jedrothwell mindspring.com wrote:

From time to time I notice that bloggers have established links to our web page. Here is an example:

http://atomicmotor.blogspot.com/

<http://atomicmotor.blogspot.com/> I have been thinking that it would be nice to introduce cold fusion to more people in the Blogosphere, in order to promote the field. The problem is, I know nothing about blogs. I have not read them. A couple of weeks ago I set out to learn more about them. Specifically, I wanted to find out: Which are the influential blogs, and is there a way to contact the authors?

It is nearly impossible to contact influential media figures such as Bill Moyers. They get so much mail, they have to hire flunkies to sort out information and protect them from the outside world. Even if you do get through to one, there is no point, because these people will not risk their reputations to endorse cold fusion -- or even talk about it. However, my guess is that minor media figures might take a risk. Also, it is usually easy to reach them. A column in a regional newspaper such as the St. Paul Star Tribune probably includes the author's e-mail address. I suppose many blogs also include a way to contact the author directly.

Anyway, I set out to learn about these blog things . . . and I was not impressed. Most of them seem poorly written and unorganized. Most appear to be right wing political diatribes, or self-centered gabbing about nothing in particular, or recursive comments about the blogosphere itself.

So, if anyone in the audience here at Vortex is a blog aficionado, please do me a favor and contact them on behalf of LENR-CANR.org and my book. It would probably be better if the message came from other people, rather than from me. I have nothing against self-promotion, especially since I am not charging anything for the book so there can be no accusation of commercial interest or spam. But it still might look better if other people introduce the topic.

There are two reasons I would like to promote the book as opposed to other material on the web site:

1. I would like to expand our audience, and I think the book may have broader public appeal than most of the papers. Perhaps there are other papers on the site that might appeal to a layman. Perhaps we should add some? Plus, as I say in the introduction, the book is intended to be a manifesto. That is, I hope it helps trigger political action. Readers have downloaded 1162 copies. That is gratifying, but it is not enough to have a political impact.

2. Technically oriented people who are looking for information on cold fusion already find us, quite easily, via Google and other search tools. Roughly a third of our visitors come from these sources. This does not necessarily mean readers have decided to look for cold fusion information on their own. My guess is that someone tells his friend, "hey, have a look at this LENR thing on the web" and people go to a search tool first.


By the way, the total number of downloads since we began is now roughly 300,000, and the visitor count is roughly 590,000. The numbers from before last April are impossible to establish, but that is a conservative.  estimate. It excludes things such as one person downloading the same paper several times in one hour, and the many robot readers from Google, Yahoo and so on.

- Jed


--Boundary_(ID_/2K7nt95xhdqb2OlDOJbTQ)-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 10 17:36:16 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1B1Zikv018725; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 17:35:45 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1B1ZZhE018673; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 17:35:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 17:35:35 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type; b=G5AUPUZWG9OHzojcXhKRPZmPRpu1raD6UUAtmkG6n0wqVaRblB2jhagugU2OkSFb; Message-ID: <410-22005251103435520 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: How useful is liquid N2 if as a fuel source? Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 18:34:35 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940656b46130cd0968cbfb9224861c7dbc9350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.159.202 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57682 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: > > Fred - what do you think about this.... > > Nitrogen is roughly 80% of air and has little value as an > oxidizer. Oxygen is a strong oxidizer. All strong oxidizers > can technically be called fuels, especially if they can be > enriched to the level of being able to superoxidize water. > Moreover, in the process of liquefying air, it is just as > efficient (almost) to both liquefy and enrich the end > product in oxygen. LOX has drawbacks and is not really > needed. > You can buy a good used Medical Oxygen Generator that uses molecular sieves to get 95% or better purity at the rate of 1.1 lb/hr O2 and about 4 lb/hr N2 using less than 700 watts out of the wall socket. If you prefer to liquify the rejected N2, all you need is a $70.00 window air conditioner, an air compressor and some plumbing to crank out about 100 lb/day LN2 at a cost of about 10 cents per pound. IF that Swiss LN2 operated motor (60 kW that will fit in a shoe box) gets the claimed 40 miles per liter you can get by at a fuel cost of a penny/mile. :-) > By compressing air in two stages (which is normal) and > separating the "first" stage of expansion magnetically > (oxygen has good paramagnetism, nitrogen no) then you can > chill the second stage with the nitrogen separated from > stage-one and not loose any significant energy. IOW > producing liquid enriched air of about 40% O2 content is > > However, one must realize that unless the electricity used > to liquefy air or any gas mixture is coming from a nuclear > plant (or wind, solar etc), there will still be carbon > released "somewhere" to make any cryo-liquid. > Of course, but where do you think the energy for recharging batteries or converting methane or coal to hydrogen is coming from? > > Nevertheless, this still could be beneficial as the Carnot numbers make it > more appealing than many realize. Plus during the cryogenic > stages, some CO2 can be removed but not nearly as much as is > produced in a coal fired plant making the electricity. It > still beats a gasoline engine in all respects. > Sure does. > > This ability to separate magnetically is due to differences > in electron distribution, called the Lewis structure. O2 > has an unpaired electron on each atom. Molecules with > unpaired electrons are paramagnetic and exhibit magnetic > properties. With oxygen the magnetic properties are pretty > dramatic, as the following images show. The Lewis structure > of N2 does not have unpaired electrons. Molecules with no > unpaired electrons that do not exhibit magnetic properties > and are diamagnetic and very easy to separate in the first > stage of a two stage liquefaction process . > http://www.chem.uiuc.edu/clcwebsite/liquido2.html > Interesting. Frederick > > Think about it. What would you rather have - a real liquid > fuel or a real chill.... > > Jones > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 10 17:57:25 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1B1vFu8027114; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 17:57:15 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1B1uofG026916; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 17:56:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 17:56:50 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20050210175931.030a0100 mail.dlsi.net> X-Sender: steven%newenergytimes.com mail.dlsi.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 17:59:52 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: It is worse because it works better In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050210163754.02b01298 pop.mindspring.com> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20050210132553.0305f268 mail.dlsi.net> <6.2.0.14.2.20050210141943.02b0a850 pop.mindspring.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20050210132553.0305f268 mail.dlsi.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <4AA14C.A.fkG.hDBDCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57683 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >It turned out they literally flew by the seat of their pants. That's profound! s From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 10 18:05:24 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1B25Au8031542; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 18:05:10 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1B255xR031513; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 18:05:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 18:05:05 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <028401c50fdd$4e4ebfe0$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <3k01ib$lt2arn mxip19a.cluster1.charter.net> <007a01c50fb5$3c6f1fe0$e741ccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <020201c50fc7$8a5ebbe0$d0bcfea9@jonesb9pacbell> Subject: Using liquid air as a fuel source to tap ZPE? Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 17:59:21 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57684 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Several background items are useful to understand what will follow, hopefully, in pursuit of a scheme for a more eco-friendly transportation system. This is the preliminaries for continuing speculation. 1) LOEA = liquid oxygen enriched air = ~58% N2 ~40% O2 Cost to produce at home if everything is optimized using night-time power (from nuclear, wind or other non-carbon source, hopefully) = about $.10 per pound with power at $.08/ kwh (nightime rate) This includes overhead. 2) ROS = reactive oxygen species. You will not understand this post (which will continue tommorrow) unless you understand the chemistry of ROS: http://users.rcn.com/jkimball.ma.ultranet/BiologyPages/R/ROS.html 3) Bridgman effect, specifically the Bridgman effect with water ice, which does NOT require thermal input. Water ice has one big advantage in regard to exploiting Casimir. When a water molecule freezes rapidly, it becomes a fully hydrogen-bonded structure with strong and straight hydrogen bonds (such as hexagonal ice) then it can only have four nearest neighbors, due to the angles of its near tetrahedral molecular hydrogen sites. This give an incredible amount of built-in strain, all "free" due to the Casimir effect on hydrogen bonds. IOW that is where the OU part would come in, when the strain is released explosively. Especially with electroyzed water ice. In the liquid phase, molecules approach more closely due to the partial collapse of the tightly hydrogen bonded network. Closer neighbors mean higher density. As the temperature of liquid water increases, the continuing collapse of the hydrogen bonded network allows unbonded molecules to approach more closely so increasing the number of nearest neighbors. Sublimation results in the same kind of expansion ration that one finds with liquid air, about 800:1 which can match up well with the combustion of gasoline. The maximum density of water is a most curious feature, as it occurs at 4 degrees C. Regular ice is lower density so work is performed on collapse. How much energy is available and how does this fit into a hybrid concept with LOEA ? Stay tuned. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 10 18:11:16 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1B2Avu8001683; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 18:10:57 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1B2AsFk001656; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 18:10:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 18:10:54 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: <08018fbd-b700-4389-9360-19e3dfc2cf93> Message-ID: <00af01c50fde$e21599f0$e741ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <002501c50f05$2d23c820$6601a8c0 msns.flt.ptd.net> <420BD969.3080704@ix.netcom.com> Subject: Re: SOLVING REALLY BIG PROBLEMS _ Jared Diamond's "Collapse" Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 21:07:53 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57685 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This post from Ed has roused me to comment. Everyone chewing on this problem should go to their bookstore and get Jared Diamond's book "Collapse: How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed". Ecology, resources, and how people react to them are very much part of the problem, and there are no glib answers but Pogo's: We have Met The Enemy and He is Us. The specific catastrophes that have been discussed here are beyond the publication time window, but the pattern is there. And there is reason to hope, and Vortex and BLP and CF are part of that scene which are also outside the scope. I have written to Diamond to call his attention to these initiatives. > Just a few words so as to reduce your feeling of being ignored. > > revtec wrote: > > > What is our collective goal regarding the commercialization of CF? > > > > Is it to reduce the level of CO2 emissions to reverse global warming? > Yes, this is an important goal. But not the only result. In this discussion both Mills' BlackLight Power and CF should have equal voice, for their end result is very similar and BLP is probably much closer to commercialization than CF; it has corporate focus, finanace, and leadership. The far-reaching result is dismantling the economic and political power structures based on the monopolization of energy sources. > > > > Is it to improve the quality of life by providing an inexhaustable > > source of cheap energy to everyone on the planet? > Eventually mankind will run out of carbon-based energy. At this point > civilization will collapse unless a substitute is found. Why not start > now to solve this problem rather than waiting until the last minute, as > is the usual approach? See Diamond. One of his students asked what the thoughts were of the man who cut down the last tree on Easter Island, which was once heavily forested. Fundamentally, it is the short time horizon of people as consumers and as investors in corporations who want quick returns and do not see the future creeping up on them. > > > > Perhaps the reduction in CO2 emissions will be more than offset by the > > waste heat output of billions of CF engines, and that global warming > > will accelerate by direct heating alone! Could it be that with > > perfecting CF we are about to open pandora's box? > Not possible. Mankind's use is too trivial compared to the sun and > sources internal to the earth. Correct. A heat engine produces a bit of heat and is done, but the greenhouse gases inhibit the cooling of the earth by radiation of far infrared to the cold blackness of space, as on a clear night. That continues 24/7 for decades or more. Whether that is *the* major cause of warming is open to debate, for the computer models are not as complex as the actual atmosphere of Earth. > > > > I brought this up before without getting a single comment. Did I have > > silent agreement with this concern from most of the group, am I > > considered totally nuts, or maybe most subscribers dump every post from > > revtec without reading a single word. I really don't know. > > > > God stuff is considered off topic in this forum, but I'm covinced that > > it is central. Our perception of threats to our existance is directly > > linked to our perception of God. Our attitudes toward "God sized" > > problems are determined by our concept of God. The thermal condition of > > this planet is set by the output of the sun. Compared to a one or two > > percent fluctuation in solar radiation, anything humans can do down here > > is totally irrelevant. > > Not true. We can change how much of the energy we get from the sun > stays on earth. The earth is not a perfect absorber. Changes in the > amount of CO2 and CH4 in the atmosphere changes the amount of energy > retained by the earth. This is the issue, not the total amount of > energy emitted by the sun. True. But changes in the sun's output, coincident with man's activities, may increase effects. There have been profound climate changes long before man had any impact. > > > > Christians think God has his hand on the solar thermostat. Athiests > > think no one does. > > > > Christians trust God to dial it back if necessary in response to our > > increased heat load. People, who either don't believe in God or don't > > trust God, think we must master these adjustments ourselves. This is based on conceptions of God based on the Bible, which is not that of the majority of humanity. > > Anyone that thinks God is concerned about the survival of the human race > has no understanding of how God works. Christianity teaches free will. > If we as a species freely act in such a way to destroy our world, we > are free to do so. Why would God care? Many species on other planets > would have the common sense not to destroy their world so that > intelligent life would go on. We would be just one more attempt to > produce intelligent life that failed. The presumption that we are > special to God is just too self-serving to be real or rational. I agree with Ed to an extent. I will add that a great many people have 'religious experiences' which subjectively to one degree or another, give an internal sense of connectedness to some essence of the world. This experience leads to a sense of relatedness and stewardship toward the planet. But the villager who goes a bit further to find wood to cook the evening meal does not see her part in the deforestation, leading to the mudslide that buries the village. > > > > Christians are thought callous for not recognizing the need to tackle > > "God sized" problems while there are nonbelievers amoung us who think > > the solution to planetary thermal overload and other environmental > > problems is to eliminate five of the six billion people on the Earth's > > surface. > > Where did you get this idea? This is not only not true, but not even > rational. It floats around. It is Genocide and Prejudice wearing the mask of rational population control. Diamond cites a study indicating that if the world population continues to increase at the present rate, the photosynthetic capcity of the plant life to feed humans will be reached, with nothing left over for other species. We are in a bubble caused by improvements in medicine and public health and agriculture which have resulted in an explosion of human population from beow one billion at 1800 to 6+ billion now. The industrial revolution fueld this with rapid increases in the energy utilized per individual, and a crisis of rising expectations. As China and India reach for First World living standards, the drain on the global capacity will increase. It is also true that humans accomplished great things whenthe world population was much smaller. Cultural habits appropriate to short life spans and low mortality change slowly but may lead to collapse. Fundamental to the way out is safe energy, and the ONLY technologies in view are CF and BLP. > > > > For anyone who wants to play the God game, the stakes are fantastically > > high. > > > > What will be the most likely cause of calamity: trusting God or playing God? > > The route to survival is to observe how nature works and adjust behavior > to be consistent with a behavior that allows survival. This is true of > individuals as well as nations. It does not involve playing God, but > simply understanding the consequences of one's actions. The US, > especially, has lost the ability to understand the consequence of > actions, instead has substituted what a few people WANT to happen. > Unfortunately, these wants seem to be justified by assuming that this is > what God wants. The arrogance is overwhelming. Amen and Amen. It is fashionable in some quarters to pin this on Bush and rationalizations by some labeled "conservatives" as bad guys as opposed to the "liberal" preservationists. Labels are dangerous: I have a simple question -- what is it that is to be 'conserved'? Years ago in a conversation with a liberal friend, I convulsed him in laughter by pointing out that he wanted to conserve his liberal traditions :-). > Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 10 18:13:41 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1B2DIu8002979; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 18:13:19 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1B2DEkm002950; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 18:13:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 18:13:14 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20050210180300.0305ee48 mail.dlsi.net> X-Sender: steven%newenergytimes.com mail.dlsi.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 18:16:15 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: How to appear in the blogoshere? In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050210160431.02ab24c8 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57686 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Harry, Good idea. My guess is that they are not ready yet. I sent out a few press releases to some of the folks at Daily Planet a while ago. My sense is that they have peripheral knowledge of the subject, know where to go to find more info, but they just don't want to go there right now. Also, these folks do NOT take kindly to anybody trying to persuade them, from what I can tell. Seems to me they have to develop the interests themselves somehow... And I think it's like Jed mentioned, the big media is too afraid to touch this...right now. It would take someone at a very high level of a media organization to grok cf in order for the producers to stick their necks out. Watch the radar however for the end of March. Possibly some ink will flow after the APS meeting. I expect a few smart journalists who have been following this to show up there, but I could be wrong. Steve At 07:26 PM 2/10/2005 -0500, you wrote: >Persuade a program like the Daily Planet on the Discovery Channel >to do a piece on the recent DOE review of CF and other developments in the >field. >As a service to their viewers they normally post links to related to the >piece on their >web site. > > > >Harry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 10 19:28:23 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1B3S5u8005368; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 19:28:05 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1B3S3eR005340; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 19:28:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 19:28:03 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: SOLVING REALLY BIG PROBLEMS Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 22:28:54 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <00af01c50fde$e21599f0$e741ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57688 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Mike, you write: >Labels are dangerous: We need some new labels, ones more descriptive rather than prescriptive. One might imagine from some posts here that liberals might be found sitting around the barbeque roasting unborn children, hot waxing their black helicopters and anxiously awaiting the luciferian UN one world government headed by the Clinton with two backs.... ...on the other hand, we have self described conservatives saying in this actual forum such as "Actually the trees will be burnt up during the Tribulation. While I regard protection of the environment as irrelevant, I am quick to point out that there are more trees now than ever before." I'm pretty sure real conservatives are cringing right now. I propose a new label, in honor of those mighty statesman and religious leaders of that fabled island Easter, those who strove to build the mighty domes that grace that otherwise barren and wasted land. Those people who when given a tour of the island and shown the nature of things, lacked the simple will to live and turned away and down the path of death. I dub these folks RockHeads. Nominations? K. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 11 04:35:00 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1BCYlu8030635; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 04:34:47 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1BCYjql030618; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 04:34:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 04:34:45 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=SSwSob6NflE4arapQltMowcyTleu8HcPkVLJPCbFEEEK9WN5SMTDQKAJMeHkdSh7; Message-ID: <410-220052511113417410 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: LN2-Powered Cryocar vs Hydrogen-Powered Fuel Cells or I.C.E.s Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 05:34:17 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9406bcf937a8c6e9a697249a71c05c84f53350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.35 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57690 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII http://www.ch-iv.com/lng/cc9408.htm NITROGEN (-320°F) " Nitrogen is probably the most common cryogen handled. Liquid nitrogen is commonly produced by "distilling" it from liquid air. This distillation process also produces liquid oxygen and sometimes liquid argon. Once liquefied the nitrogen can be shipped in bulk to other locations by railcar or trailer. You have probably been behind a liquid nitrogen trailer, labeled Nitrogen Refrigerated Liquid, many times on the highway. Once at its destination it can be used as a cryogenic liquid but most often it is vaporized and used as a gas. Nitrogen has many uses, but the bulk of it is consumed by the chemical, electronics and food industries. Nitrogen is often used in chemical and petrochemical facilities as a blanket, purge, or dry gas because it is inert and water-free. Again, its inert properties make it ideal for the manufacture of semiconductors and other clean processes. Liquid nitrogen plays a major role in the flash freezing of food to minimize product damage and dehydration. Nitrogen gas is injected into the aluminum cans containing non-carbonated drinks to provide the internal pressure necessary to minimize denting. Nitrogen injected into food packaging can prevent food discoloration, maintain crispness, and general product degradation. " http://www.deutsches-museum.de/ausstell/dauer/physik/e_luft.htm "The version of Linde's machine from 1906 on display here includes improvements designed to boost the machine's efficiency: The air is compressed in two stages (right), with a low-pressure compressor that compresses incoming air to 20 bar, and a high-pressure compressor that raises the pressure to up to 200 bar. The high-pressure air initially passes through a precooler (middle) and into the countercurrent apparatus. In the first throttle valve, it relaxes to 20 bar and partially liquefies. Part of the low-pressure air remaining that has not yet liquefied precools incoming high-pressure air in the countercurrent cooler and is fed back to the high-pressure compressor after it passes through the precooler. Another portion of the remaining air is relaxed in a second throttle valve together with air that has already liquefied and is also partially liquefied. The remaining portion has a cooling effect in the countercurrent apparatus and escapes into the open air." psiBARKPaAtmBarpsiKpaAtm 10.0696.890.0681151000.99 Or Hydrogen?? :-) http://www.linde-gas.com/International/Web/LG/COM/likelgcomn.nsf/DocByAlias/prod_hydrogenprojects_700barfillingstation "10.000 PSI / 700 bar Filling Station Linde has created the world’s first hydrogen filling station using 700-bar technology for the Adam Opel AG. This represents an important milestone on the road to the hydrogen-powered car society. In comparison to the usual 350 bar (5,000 PSI) systems, the higher storage density of the 700-bar technology extends the range of a fuel cell vehicle by 60 to 70%. This advance gives the fuel cell vehicle a range of over 400 km (250 miles), which is one of the most important pre-requisites for widespread use of cars powered by compressed hydrogen. The filling station, in the Opel test centre at Dudenhofen near Offenbach, Germany, was designed and built as a turnkey project by Linde. " A veritable bomb even without a spark! Fill'er up Scotty. :-) Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

 

NITROGEN (-320°F)

" Nitrogen is probably the most common cryogen handled. Liquid nitrogen is commonly produced by "distilling" it from liquid air. This distillation process also produces liquid oxygen and sometimes liquid argon. Once liquefied the nitrogen can be shipped in bulk to other locations by railcar or trailer. You have probably been behind a liquid nitrogen trailer, labeled Nitrogen Refrigerated Liquid, many times on the highway. Once at its destination it can be used as a cryogenic liquid but most often it is vaporized and used as a gas.

Nitrogen has many uses, but the bulk of it is consumed by the chemical, electronics and food industries. Nitrogen is often used in chemical and petrochemical facilities as a blanket, purge, or dry gas because it is inert and water-free. Again, its inert properties make it ideal for the manufacture of semiconductors and other clean processes. Liquid nitrogen plays a major role in the flash freezing of food to minimize product damage and dehydration. Nitrogen gas is injected into the aluminum cans containing non-carbonated drinks to provide the internal pressure necessary to minimize denting. Nitrogen injected into food packaging can prevent food discoloration, maintain crispness, and general product degradation. "

 
"The version of Linde's machine from 1906 on display here includes improvements designed to boost the machine's efficiency: The air is compressed in two stages (right), with a low-pressure compressor that compresses incoming air to 20 bar, and a high-pressure compressor that raises the pressure to up to 200 bar. The high-pressure air initially passes through a precooler (middle) and into the countercurrent apparatus. In the first throttle valve, it relaxes to 20 bar and partially liquefies. Part of the low-pressure air remaining that has not yet liquefied precools incoming high-pressure air in the countercurrent cooler and is fed back to the high-pressure compressor after it passes through the precooler. Another portion of the remaining air is relaxed in a second throttle valve together with air that has already liquefied and is also partially liquefied. The remaining portion has a cooling effect in the countercurrent apparatus and escapes into the open air."
 
psi BAR KPa Atm Bar psi Kpa Atm
1 0.069 6.89 0.068 1 15 100 0.99

Or  Hydrogen??   :-) 

http://www.linde-gas.com/International/Web/LG/COM/likelgcomn.nsf/DocByAlias/prod_hydrogenprojects_700barfillingstation

"10.000 PSI / 700 bar Filling Station

Linde has created the world’s first hydrogen filling station using 700-bar technology for the Adam Opel AG. This represents an important milestone on the road to the hydrogen-powered car society.

In comparison to the usual 350 bar (5,000 PSI) systems, the higher storage density of the 700-bar technology extends the range of a fuel cell vehicle by 60 to 70%.
This advance gives the fuel cell vehicle a range of over 400 km (250 miles), which is one of the most important pre-requisites for widespread use of cars powered by compressed hydrogen.

The filling station, in the Opel test centre at Dudenhofen near Offenbach, Germany, was designed and built as a turnkey project by Linde. "

A veritable bomb even without a spark!

Fill'er up Scotty.   :-)

Frederick

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 11 05:31:04 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1BDUqu8023930; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 05:30:52 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1BDUocQ023918; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 05:30:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 05:30:50 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002901c5103e$2d954060$6601a8c0 msns.flt.ptd.net> From: "revtec" To: References: <5.2.0.9.2.20050210132553.0305f268 mail.dlsi.net> <6.2.0.14.2.20050210141943.02b0a850@pop.mindspring.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20050210132553.0305f268@mail.dlsi.net> <5.2.0.9.2.20050210175931.030a0100@mail.dlsi.net> Subject: Re: It is worse because it works better Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 08:32:45 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57691 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ten years ago I owned an Avid Flyer, it's like a Kit Fox. I suffered a catastrophic engine failure 400 feet in the air during a takeoff. The motality rate for that kind of incident is really high, but I managed to bring it back to the runway and land it without causing further damage. A few years later while on landing approach in a Cherokee 235 I hit a buzzard. He mangled my left wing as I cut him in half. I completed the landing successfully. My daughter, also a pilot, was with me. As we got out of the plane, she said " Way to go dad, you kept flying the airplane" ( as opposed to panicing). I think I'm a pretty good pilot when the chips are down. I attribute that to being one with the machine. I feel it . It is an extension of my body. Now, consider those fantastically awsome flight simulators we have all played on our computers. I think they are really cool, but I can't have any fun with them because I crash all the time. I look like a total bozo. If you ever saw me do one of those you would never fly with me. The trouble is: I can't feel anything. The visual inputs are not enough for me. Maybe it's not that bad for most people, but it sure is tough for me. Jeff ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven Krivit" To: Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 8:59 PM Subject: Re: It is worse because it works better > > >It turned out they literally flew by the seat of their pants. > > That's profound! > > s > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 11 06:10:13 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1BE9xu8003918; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 06:10:00 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1BE9vou003901; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 06:09:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 06:09:57 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Sender: jack mail3.centurytel.net Message-ID: <420CC915.2A1113F2 centurytel.net> Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 15:02:45 +0000 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 2.2.5-15 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: SOLVING REALLY BIG PROBLEMS References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="xh" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="xh" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57692 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: We are 15-25 years away from a "run-away" greenhouse effect now. Horace wrote: Is this just a guess? It seems to me entirely possible we may be in a runaway mode right now. Measurements of the tundra surface show methane release is increasing and the area of thawing regions are increasing ... Hi All, It's possible that 12,000 years ago solar radiation markedly increased, and that we are now in a "warm room" that could last another 20,000 years, based on the length of the next to the last interglacial (two before ours). Things in a warm room heat up. One way out is to rapidly melt the Arctic ice cap so that the cold Arctic winds could deposit at least 50 feet of "lake effect" snow over North America south to the Ohio River each summer. Reflection of solar radiation from the snow would lower the temperature of Earth; and the snow would stop only when the Arctic Ocean froze over again, leaving a mile-thick sheet of ice over Cleveland as per most of the last few hundred thousand years. The ice cover would help block methane release. Dusting vast stretches of the oceans with iron to increase CO2 consumption may be a good idea; but that may not be enough to stop the current release of methane in the Arctic. Short of melting the Arctic ice cap, the next best thing would be stopping the use of all fossil fuels. The increasing Himalayan rock face would remove existing CO2 as carbonates in the runoff to be fixed by shell fish. This may not work if a deviation amplifying methane release is already under way. What would replace fossil fuels? We could go to a methanol economy, making the methanol from wood chips produced by stump cutting rapidly growing poplars on tree farms. We could use our existing infrastructure -- tanks, pipelinces, "gas" stations, with minor modifications to our engines. We would thus stop sending billions to people who want to kill us and enslave our women. Also, tree farming would provide many jobs. Jack Smith From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 11 06:48:23 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1BEm6u8018865; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 06:48:07 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1BEm4wb018846; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 06:48:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 06:48:05 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001a01c51047$e3298a40$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: Subject: Air as fuel Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 06:42:17 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0017_01C51004.D42475C0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: <68Le6C.A.ZmE.kWMDCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57693 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01C51004.D42475C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This is part 2 of a ongoing speculation about how a liquid air-powered = automobile engine might be improved over current schemes, which is = simply to expand the liquid through a turbine or reciprocating engine = using ambient heat to get the 800 to one expansion ratio. But there is = potential unused energy in the liquid air itself, which can be exploited = - of both the chemical and Casimir-related varieties.=20 First of all and most obviously, it should be re-affirmed and hoped that = CF or ZPE conversion technologies will negate any need for this, but on = the chance they are delayed, or run into a cost (Pd) or technological = dead-ends for unknown reasons, then it is wise to be prepared with = secondary options, should we reach the stage where carbon can no longer = be considered a tolerable fuel.=20 This will assume that we have gone to 100% non-carbon electricity = through the use of improved nuclear, wind and solar energy over the grid = - and that legislation has forced all carbon to be consumed in the form = of structural fiber and plastics. At this stage, improved batteries or = hydrogen fuel would normally be considered the best choices for = transportation. In any event, if we are forced to use nuclear energy for the bulk of our = consumption, it is wise to use the off-peak (night-time) hours to = produce transportation fuel or to charge batteries at the local = (household) level. Batteries make the most sense, if they can be = improved as much as claimed, but these same claims have been made for at = least two decades and still the lead-acid battery has not been replaced. = Hydrogen may have storage and safety issues for home manufacture. = Therefore, nitrogen chemistry and liquid cryo-fuel is not ruled out, = based solely on apparent issues. There is also the possibility of = air/battery hybrids. Under this scenario, 8-10 years out from the present, I think it can be = shown that liquid air has advantages over even burning hydrogen, in = terms of both cost and safety. The toxicity problems of this suggestion = are apparent in the "uncontrolled" chemistry of nitrogen, but these have = already been solved in principle with catalysis, so the bottom line is = that this is another option to consider to avoid global catastrophe from = CO2 increase. Nitrogen forms easily reversible oxides in which nitrogen exhibits each = of its positive oxidation numbers from +1 to +5. Nitrogen (di)oxide is a = reactive toxic compound released from auto exhaust that is easily = converted by catalysis to the base elements. These oxides are also = produced naturally by the human body and all life, so toxicity is often = a matter of quantity, not quality. Dentists use nitrous oxide N2O for = "pain free" oral torture and kids use it to get high. In all of these = cases, oxides of nitrogen have a large fraction of an eV of energy to = "play with" in reversible energy content. This is compared to a tiny = fraction of an eV for ambient heat to be used in expansion. More on = those details in a later post. Nitrogen oxides, or NOx, is the generic term for the entire group of = highly reactive gases which contain nitrogen and oxygen in varying = amounts. Gaseous nitric oxide is the most thermally stable oxide of = nitrogen and is also paramagnetic-- i.e., a molecule with an unpaired = electron. At room temperature nitric oxide is a colorless gas = consisting of diatomic molecules. However, because of the unpaired = electron, two molecules can combine to form a dimer by coupling their = unpaired electrons.=20 2NO <--> N2O2=20 Thus, liquid nitric oxide is partially dimerized, and the solid consists = solely of dimers. Like with water/ice, therefore, there is a substantial = density variation between the solid and liquid, implying that the = Casimir force can be exploited by forcing expansion stresses to form = explosively thorough either rapid (microsec) freezing or thawing of the = nano-particulate. Nitrogen oxides form when fuel is burned at high = temperatures, as in a combustion process, but they can also be formed = catalytically and then used as fuel. That is one reason why NOx is = formed naturally in almost all of life - it does provide a reversible = energy pathway and energy storage medium. Some of the technology details are still classified, but many rockets = and rocket-boosters have employed nitrogen tetroxide as oxidizer/fuel. = The Titan was one such beast, and one can only speculate as to the full = details, but it seems clear that many nitrogen oxides will "burn" on = their own at far less output but with no need of carbon. IOW they will = give us a half to a whole eV per molecule on their own. If one is expanding a liquid to a gas and through a turbine, then the = Carnot efficiency and energy density is limited by the ambient temperate = of no more than a tiny fraction of an eV. If we can multiply that = 10-fold through reversible nitrogen chemistry, then the net energy = density of the fuel can be increase to where it is arguable competitive = or even superior to other methods as a transportation fuel/storage = medium. This is the niche that needs to be looked-at more closely. Jones ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01C51004.D42475C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
This is part 2 of a ongoing speculation about how a = liquid air-powered=20 automobile engine might be improved over current schemes, which is = simply to=20 expand the liquid through a turbine or reciprocating engine using = ambient heat=20 to get the 800 to one expansion ratio. But there is potential unused = energy in=20 the liquid air itself, which can be exploited - of both the chemical and = Casimir-related varieties.
 
First of all and most obviously, it should be re-affirmed and hoped = that CF=20 or ZPE conversion technologies will negate any need for this, but on the = chance=20 they are delayed, or run into a cost (Pd) or technological dead-ends for = unknown=20 reasons, then it is wise to be prepared with secondary options, should = we reach=20 the stage where carbon can no longer be considered a tolerable fuel. =
 
This will assume that we have gone to 100% non-carbon electricity = through=20 the use of improved nuclear, wind and solar energy over the grid - and = that=20 legislation has forced all carbon to be consumed in the form of = structural fiber=20 and plastics. At this stage, improved batteries or hydrogen fuel = would=20 normally be considered the best choices for transportation.
 
In any event, if we are forced to use nuclear energy for the bulk = of our=20 consumption, it is wise to use the off-peak (night-time) hours to = produce=20 transportation fuel or to charge batteries at the local (household) = level.=20 Batteries make the most sense, if they can be improved as much as = claimed, but=20 these same claims have been made for at least two decades and still the=20 lead-acid battery has not been replaced. Hydrogen may have storage and = safety=20 issues for home manufacture. Therefore, nitrogen chemistry and=20 liquid cryo-fuel is not ruled out, based solely on apparent = issues.=20 There is also the possibility of air/battery hybrids.
 
Under this scenario, 8-10 years out from the present, I = think it=20 can be shown that liquid air has advantages over even burning hydrogen, = in terms=20 of both cost and safety. The toxicity problems of this suggestion are = apparent=20 in the "uncontrolled" chemistry of nitrogen, but these have already been = solved=20 in principle with catalysis, so the bottom line is that this is another = option=20 to consider to avoid global catastrophe from CO2 increase.
 
Nitrogen forms easily reversible oxides in which nitrogen exhibits = each of=20 its positive oxidation numbers from +1 to +5. Nitrogen (di)oxide is a = reactive=20 toxic compound released from auto exhaust that is easily converted by = catalysis=20 to the base elements. These oxides are also produced naturally by the = human body=20 and all life, so toxicity is often a matter of quantity, not quality. = Dentists=20 use nitrous oxide N2O for "pain free" oral torture and kids use it = to get=20 high. In all of these cases, oxides of nitrogen have a large fraction of = an eV=20 of energy to "play with" in reversible energy content. This is compared = to a=20 tiny fraction of an eV for ambient heat to be used in expansion. More on = those=20 details in a later post.
 
Nitrogen oxides, or NOx, is the generic term for the entire group = of highly=20 reactive gases which contain nitrogen and oxygen in varying amounts. = Gaseous=20 nitric oxide is the most thermally stable oxide of nitrogen and is also=20 paramagnetic-- i.e., a molecule with an unpaired electron.  At room = temperature nitric oxide is a colorless gas consisting of diatomic = molecules.=20 However, because of the unpaired electron, two molecules can combine to = form a=20 dimer by coupling their unpaired electrons.
 
2NO <--> N2O2
 
Thus, liquid nitric oxide is partially dimerized, and the solid = consists=20 solely of dimers. Like with water/ice, therefore, there is a substantial = density=20 variation between the solid and liquid, implying that the Casimir force = can be=20 exploited by forcing expansion stresses to form explosively thorough = either=20 rapid (microsec) freezing or thawing of the nano-particulate. Nitrogen = oxides=20 form when fuel is burned at high temperatures, as in a combustion = process, but=20 they can also be formed catalytically and then used as fuel. That is one = reason=20 why NOx is formed naturally in almost all of life - it does provide a = reversible=20 energy pathway and energy storage medium.
 
Some of the technology details are still classified, but many = rockets and=20 rocket-boosters have employed nitrogen tetroxide as oxidizer/fuel. = The=20 Titan was one such beast, and one can only speculate as to the full = details, but=20 it seems clear that many nitrogen oxides will "burn" on their own at far = less=20 output but with no need of carbon. IOW they will give us a half to a = whole eV=20 per molecule on their own.
 
If one is expanding a liquid to a gas and through a turbine, then = the=20 Carnot efficiency and energy density is limited by the ambient temperate = of no=20 more than a tiny fraction of an eV. If we can multiply that 10-fold = through=20 reversible nitrogen chemistry, then the net energy density of the fuel = can be=20 increase to where it is arguable competitive or even superior to other = methods=20 as a transportation fuel/storage medium.
 
This is the niche that needs to be looked-at more closely.
 
Jones
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_0017_01C51004.D42475C0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 11 06:51:53 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1BEpSu8020179; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 06:51:33 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1BEpQlp020145; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 06:51:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 06:51:26 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050211094650.029b2db0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 09:51:10 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Guy builds Apollo Guidance Computer (AGC) replica in basement Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <_prhvC.A.k6E.tZMDCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57694 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Wonderful! See: http://www.nytimes.com/2005/02/10/technology/circuits/10apol.html http://starfish.osfn.org/AGCreplica/ http://starfish.osfn.org/AGCreplica/buildAGC1.pdf REPORT Block I Apollo Guidance Computer (AGC) How to build one in your basement Material developed and provided by John Pultorak who is kind enough to put these files into the public domain with no restrictions on their use. Abstract This report describes my successful project to build a working reproduction of the 1964 prototype for the Block I Apollo Guidance Computer. The AGC is the flight computer for the Apollo moon landings, with one unit in the command module and one in the LEM. I built it in my basement. It took me 4 years. If you like, you can build one too. It will take you less time, and yours will be better than mine. - - - - - - - - - - - - - Original AGC: Designed by M.I.T. in 1964 World's first microchip computer Prototype computer for Apollo moon landing Memory: 12K fixed (ROM), 1K eraseable (RAM) Clock: 1.024 MHz Computing: 11 instructions, 16 bit word Logic: ~5000 ICs (3-input NOR gates, RTL logic) My AGC: Built from original M.I.T. design documents Started November 2000, completed October 2004 ~15K hand-wrapped wire connections; ~3500 feet of wire Cost (parts only): $2,980. Labor: ~2500 hours Logic: ~500 ICs (LSTTL logic) Runs flight software (1969 program name: COLOSSUS 249) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 11 07:15:43 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1BFFHu8002797; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 07:15:21 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1BFFFO0002783; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 07:15:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 07:15:15 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 06:14:52 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: How useful is liquid N2 if as a fuel source? Cc: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57695 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:28 AM 2/10/5, wrote: >How much energy is expended producing liquid N2, and how would this >potential resource compare to equivalent alternative fuel source energy >carriers. Liquifaction is the main problem. It occurs at less than 50 percent Carnot efficiency. See: Hydrogen formation from either methane or water can be more than 60 percent efficient, so LN2 or liquid air comes out a loser on the supply end, and would be a net polluter. The source of pollution might be moved to more convenient spot, but the sum of pollution per mile driven is more than doubled vs burning directly in the car the original fuel that provides the energy for liquifaction (unless the energy source is nuclear). As Mike Carroll points out LN2 is not an energy source. Like hydrogen, it can't be mined. Hydrogen is not an energy source. These things are merely energy storage mediums, like batteries. There is a net energy and pollution *cost* to obtain these things. The principle advantage to LN2 is that it is much easier to store, and the energy density is high compared to hydrogen or batteries. The EV1 batteries stored at 110 kJ/kg, LN2 stores 570 kJ/kg, of which about 200 kJ/kg is heat of vaporization. The high percentage of heat stored in heat of vaporization tells one right off that simply vaporizing LN2 in a heat exchanger with ambient air, as done at UW or UNT is inefficient. A Sterling engine would be a better means of achieving the vaporization, because this would not waste the 200 kJ/kg by cooling the atmosphere with it. Interestingly, an LN2 engine would run less efficiently in arctic or cold weather, in which heat engines run better. A good all around approach might be to combine a heat source, e.g. hydrogen, with an LN2 or liquid air cold source to drive a sterling engine in addition to the LN2 vapor driven turbine. This would also provide a backup power mode to get to a LN2 station. To obtain a decent power to weight ratio, this kind of engine might best run at constant speed and thus would work best as part of a hydbrid system. To obtain an efficient vehicle breaking energy must be recoverable and storable, and LN2 can't do this. The capital and operating cost for a hybrid system this complex may be a problem. I think a significant problem is the lack of a home liquifaction capability. One of the nice things about the EV1 was the ability to charge it at home. This problem can probably be solved for a liquid air vehicle. The problem of liabilities due to cryogenic product safety are another matter entirely. It is not likely we will see home hydrogen refueling, though that is also a technical possibility. The main problem with using hydrogen, other than the energy and pollution costs of obtaining it, is safe and effective storge. LN2 beats H2 hands down on this at the moment, but maybe not for long. Carbon nanotube storage or alternative storage methods are likely to show up soon due to the large amount of money being spent on development now. A CF driven hybrid would be the ultimate vehicle, but a few technical problems remain there too. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 11 07:15:44 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1BFFSu8002896; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 07:15:29 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1BFFLwN002846; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 07:15:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 07:15:21 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 06:14:50 -0900 To: From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Thanks V & Bill B & Donations? Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57696 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A For snailmail just send a check to: William J. Beaty 7040 22nd Ave NW Seattle, WA 98117 Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 11 09:35:15 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1BHYjX5010158; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 09:34:46 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1BHYHes009890; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 09:34:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 09:34:17 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=qkd1Afj3SYNbQiIcDlVw+G/C5S68k7RZnGTblu+VL+vdElzDNJ6b3A8D7dLJbNmUrT+kEFLPZc2vVAmDhOLQcfqR0G0qrz09aTw+NOHrj5T1kR5p4K/GLzlcK5GbhAEFaLjbYNId7wXbLR5t3kxggl0CF3yzV5UstHpUS5Zqj6M= ; Message-ID: <20050211172712.56708.qmail web51703.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 09:27:12 -0800 (PST) From: Terry Blanton Subject: Energy War To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-575466121-1108142832=:56325" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57697 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --0-575466121-1108142832=:56325 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii An interesting treatise on the future war with China: http://www.321energy.com/editorials/winston/winston020905.html __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --0-575466121-1108142832=:56325 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
An interesting treatise on the future war with China:
 

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http://mail.yahoo.com --0-575466121-1108142832=:56325-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 11 10:13:31 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1BIDCX5030103; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 10:13:13 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1BID0xr029998; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 10:13:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 10:13:00 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <00e001c51064$82c74a80$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <20050211172712.56708.qmail web51703.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Energy War Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 10:07:12 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57698 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry > An interesting treatise on the future war with China: http://www.321energy.com/editorials/winston/winston020905.html There is probably a better adjective... maybe terrifying, alarming, etc. but is it really accurate? Are there any economists on Vortex? "As China's Master Plan to Destroy America manifesto outlines, the multifaceted battle plan recommended by the Chinese military has taken shape...Financially: Using Currency as the Primary Weapon...[snip] While America's media is hypnotizing us with frivolous entertainment such as American Idol or The Amazing Race, they are totally ignoring the perilous economic time bomb the Chinese have placed against us. The Government of China is holding U.S. currency and Treasury notes in a $1.9 trillion Treasury bond trap. When they pull the trigger on their "primary weapon," the dollar will crash and gold will break $600 in a heart beat and just keep going." [End of quote] I wonder how accurate this is... what can the Chinese do with this paper, in reality. Since Nixon took us off any international gold standard, they have no choice but to hole the paper, correct? We do not back up any T-bills with gold anymore do we? Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 11 11:12:02 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1BJBVX5027259; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 11:11:32 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1BJBSh4027233; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 11:11:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 11:11:28 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050211134628.02b22be0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 14:08:23 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Energy War In-Reply-To: <00e001c51064$82c74a80$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> References: <20050211172712.56708.qmail web51703.mail.yahoo.com> <00e001c51064$82c74a80$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_17797078==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57699 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_17797078==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Jones Beene wrote: >"As China's Master Plan to Destroy America manifesto >outlines, the multifaceted battle plan recommended by the >Chinese military has taken shape...Financially: Using >Currency as the Primary Weapon...[snip] I think that is ridiculous. No one is more conservative than stable communist dictator. The last thing the Chinese leaders want to do is rock the boat or cause instability anywhere in the world. My father, who was posted to the Soviet Union during WWII, said the Stalinists were the most stick-in-the-mud right-wing conservatives he ever met in his life. The North Korean Communists are not stable, and they may be a threat to other countries, but the Chinese leaders love the status quo. This position paper from PLA should not be taken any more seriously than these kooky right wing American plans to invade Iran, North Korea and Syria over the next six months (or whenever it is). By the way, I doubt the North Koreans have actually made nuclear weapons. Why should they bother? What use would they have for a bomb? If they used it on anyone they would be blown to smithereens by the U.S. They have all the leverage they need just by claiming to have bombs. I read interviews with retired U.S. scientists from Los Alamos who visited North Korea a few months ago. The Koreans tried to convince them that they have weapons, but the experts saw no credible. They got the impression that Koreans are trying to make everyone think they have weapons. Saddam Hussein did the same thing for a long time, for reasons only he can tell. If the Koreans actually had weapons or a weapons production facility, they could have convinced the Los Alamos experts in 15 minutes. I doubt there will be an energy war -- either economic or the shooting kind of war. Fixing the energy crisis with conventional alternative energy would be at least a thousand times cheaper. But if there is conflict over energy, it will prove how right Arthur C. Clarke was when he wrote in 1963: "The heavy hydrogen in the seas can drive all our machines, heat all our cities, for as far ahead as we can imagine. If, as is perfectly possible, we are short of energy two generations from now, it will be through our own incompetence. We will be like Stone Age men freezing to death on top of a coal bed." That should be, "Stone Age barbarians." - Jed --=====================_17797078==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Jones Beene wrote:

"As China's Master Plan to Destroy America manifesto
outlines, the multifaceted battle plan recommended by the
Chinese military has taken shape...Financially: Using
Currency as the Primary Weapon...[snip]

I think that is ridiculous. No one is more conservative than stable communist dictator. The last thing the Chinese leaders want to do is rock the boat or cause instability anywhere in the world. My father, who was posted to the Soviet Union during WWII, said the Stalinists were the most stick-in-the-mud right-wing conservatives he ever met in his life.

The North Korean Communists are not stable, and they may be a threat to other countries, but the Chinese leaders love the status quo. This position paper from PLA should not be taken any more seriously than these kooky right wing American plans to invade Iran, North Korea and Syria over the next six months (or whenever it is).

By the way, I doubt the North Koreans have actually made nuclear weapons. Why should they bother? What use would they have for a bomb? If they used it on anyone they would be blown to smithereens by the U.S. They have all the leverage they need just by claiming to have bombs. I read interviews with retired U.S. scientists from Los Alamos who visited North Korea a few months ago. The Koreans tried to convince them that they have weapons, but the experts saw no credible. They got the impression that Koreans are trying to make everyone think they have weapons. Saddam Hussein did the same thing for a long time, for reasons only he can tell. If the Koreans actually had weapons or a weapons production facility, they could have convinced the Los Alamos experts in 15 minutes.

I doubt there will be an energy war -- either economic or the shooting kind of war. Fixing the energy crisis with conventional alternative energy would be at least a thousand times cheaper. But if there is conflict over energy, it will prove how right Arthur C. Clarke was when he wrote in 1963:

"The heavy hydrogen in the seas can drive all our machines, heat all our cities, for as far ahead as we can imagine. If, as is perfectly possible, we are short of energy two generations from now, it will be through our own incompetence. We will be like Stone Age men freezing to death on top of a coal bed."

That should be, "Stone Age barbarians."

- Jed
 --=====================_17797078==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 11 11:22:27 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1BJLur9032283; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 11:21:56 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1BJLm6N032187; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 11:21:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 11:21:48 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=ZCxX+amX6cuYFLeozcUWjVSb0woHHBQz/NqqqcjSQCMMVNfY2faGexlhaPifr7unlMwf+ZZV5dvTbqXfuEv62zkrMkPeWNFyytt58x+tG3pVd5wNI6GqPOr5pa/Pux1o6+rIy/YRjyQfQ3P2Z7GY3fzqXqPC2uHDdfBuOn/+vm4= ; Message-ID: <20050211192117.2310.qmail web51704.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 11:21:17 -0800 (PST) From: Terry Blanton Subject: Re: Energy War To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <00e001c51064$82c74a80$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-156978946-1108149677=:2258" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57700 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-156978946-1108149677=:2258 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii $1.93 T is the *total* outstanding T-Note debt of which 10% is held by China: http://www.treas.gov/tic/mfh.txt Jones Beene wrote: The Government of China is holding U.S. currency and Treasury notes in a $1.9 trillion Treasury bond trap. When they pull the trigger on their "primary weapon," the dollar will crash and gold will break $600 in a heart beat and just keep going." [End of quote] I wonder how accurate this is... --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! – Try it today! --0-156978946-1108149677=:2258 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
$1.93 T is the *total* outstanding T-Note debt of which 10% is held by China:
 
 


Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net> wrote:
 
<snippage>
The Government of China is holding U.S. currency and
Treasury notes in a $1.9 trillion Treasury bond trap. When
they pull the trigger on their "primary weapon," the dollar
will crash and gold will break $600 in a heart beat and just
keep going."

[End of quote]

I wonder how accurate this is...

Do you Yahoo!?
Meet the all-new My Yahoo! – Try it today! --0-156978946-1108149677=:2258-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 11 11:36:08 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1BJZar9007961; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 11:35:36 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1BJZU1C007902; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 11:35:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 11:35:30 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <420D038F.70005 ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 12:12:15 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Energy War References: <20050211172712.56708.qmail web51703.mail.yahoo.com> <00e001c51064$82c74a80$d0bcfea9@jonesb9pacbell> In-Reply-To: <00e001c51064$82c74a80$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57701 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I'm not an economist, but I have been doing considerable reading about the problem. The Chinese can do the following: 1. They can use dollars obtained from providing products to Wal-Mart et al. to buy oil and other commodities that are sold in dollars. This will drive up the prices of these commodities and drive up most prices in the US. (Think fuel prices for airlines as one example.) 2. They can sell the treasury bonds on the open market, which will drive down the price of the bonds and increase interest rates. This will increase the cost of money to individuals and business, causing massive bankruptcy, both for businesses and for individuals as they lose their homes. 3. They can sell dollars and buy Euros. This will reduce the value of the dollar. As a result oil will cost more in dollars and the price of energy will go up. All of these actions will increase inflation and require the government to borrow even more money at a higher price. Business costs will rise causing more job loss and more moving of business to other countries. Meanwhile, the hope of selling our products to the world at a lower price will be frustrated because China and Japan now make and sell at a much lower price a lot of what we might have sold. Ironically, we gave them the wealth to develop their industry so that their products are just as good as ours and cheaper. Thanks to the greed and shortsighted planning of major companies and the ignorance of the government, we are slowing selling to China the power to weaken our country without firing a shot. Meanwhile, we go into debt and transfer funds from important programs for our people, to fight terrorism that has been created to a large extent by our failure to address the real problems in the world and to some extend is being encouraged by China. China is playing Go while we are playing Chess. Regards, Ed Jones Beene wrote: > Terry > > >>An interesting treatise on the future war with China: > > > > http://www.321energy.com/editorials/winston/winston020905.html > > > There is probably a better adjective... maybe terrifying, > alarming, etc. but is it really accurate? Are there any > economists on Vortex? > > "As China's Master Plan to Destroy America manifesto > outlines, the multifaceted battle plan recommended by the > Chinese military has taken shape...Financially: Using > Currency as the Primary Weapon...[snip] > > While America's media is hypnotizing us with frivolous > entertainment such as American Idol or The Amazing Race, > they are totally ignoring the perilous economic time bomb > the Chinese have placed against us. > > The Government of China is holding U.S. currency and > Treasury notes in a $1.9 trillion Treasury bond trap. When > they pull the trigger on their "primary weapon," the dollar > will crash and gold will break $600 in a heart beat and just > keep going." > > [End of quote] > > I wonder how accurate this is... what can the Chinese do > with this paper, in reality. Since Nixon took us off any > international gold standard, they have no choice but to hole > the paper, correct? We do not back up any T-bills with gold > anymore do we? > > Jones > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 11 11:56:14 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1BJto9W018036; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 11:55:50 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1BJtiL4017994; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 11:55:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 11:55:44 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <410-220052511195537290 ix.netcom.com> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: aki ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.1.47.0 (Windows) From: "Akira Kawasaki" To: "vortex-l" Subject: FW: WHAT'S NEW Friday, February 11, 2005 Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 11:55:37 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: c4cc7f5f697e8746f66dc3a06d5924d8754eecf0bbd1aded34f813ce2ad6765dd10a8cb42d4530e6350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 216.249.97.149 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57702 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: What's New > To: Akira Kawasaki Date: 2/11/2005 11:51:13 AM Subject: WHAT'S NEW Friday, February 11, 2005 WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 11 Feb 05 Washington, DC 1. D. ALLAN BROMLEY: FORMER APS PRESIDENT DIED YESTERDAY AT 78. Moshe Gai informs us that Allan was stricken yesterday at lunch. He died on the way to the hospital. One of the world's leading nuclear physicists, he was also an outspoken proponent of science and was awarded the National Medal of Science in 1988. In a 1989 meeting with George H.W. Bush to discuss the position of Science Advisor, the President's first question was about cold fusion. Bromley had just learned the results from a collaboration he had arranged to test the claim. There were no neutrons. Confidently he told the President that the reports out of Utah were in error. 2. PROLIFERATION: TAUNTING IS ONLY AGAINST THE RULES IN THE NFL. Let's see if we've got this right: based on unfounded rumors of nuclear weapons in Iraq, the U.S. committed itself to a war that has so far cost the lives of more than 2,000 American troops and another 10,000 wounded. Perhaps 18,000 Iraqi civilians have been killed, and more than 6,000 military. This carnage has cost us $153 billion, and there's no end in sight. Although he had no weapons of mass destruction, we're told the Iraq war is justified because Sadam is a really bad guy. Kim Jong Il is no sweetheart either, and N. Korea is dancing in the end zone with its nukes. 3. PUBLIC ACCESS: APS POLICY INCORRECTLY STATED BY WHAT'S NEW. Last week, WN misstated the position of Editor in Chief Marty Blume on public access, for which I profoundly apologize. In Marty Blume's words, "We already allow authors to post the final versions of their papers on eprint archives anywhere (which would include the NIH's pub med central) and to make them available immediately. This is already done with many articles posted on the Cornell arXiv, and we have seen no effect on subscriptions." The new NIH policy announced last week by Elias Zerhouni goes a step further: authors are "asked" to post on public Web sites. 4. IS "JOHN OF GOD" A HEALER OR A CHARLATAN? IS ABC NEWS NUTS? In an hour long report last night, Primetime Live co-anchor John Quinones traveled to a remote area of Brazil to find out if "John of God" is really a miracle healer as his followers claim. Wake up ABC! It's the 21st Century. In a position to help millions of viewers understand that they live in a rational universe, ABC has chosen instead to tell them that their sad superstitions are open scientific questions. To give the program credibility they turned to "one of the world's most respected surgeons, Dr. Mehmet Oz." Oz is no doubt a fine surgeon, but he has touch therapists in his operating room helping patients "connect to the healing energy everywhere." When ABC dumped Michael Guillen as science editor, http://www.aps.org/WN/WN02/wn122702.cfm it seemed like a good sign. But it looks like they still don't get it. THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND. Opinions are the author's and not necessarily shared by the University of Maryland, but they should be. --- Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.aps.org/WN To subscribe, send a blank e-mail to: From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 11 12:12:11 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1BKBl9W025329; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 12:11:48 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1BKBifv025303; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 12:11:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 12:11:44 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <420D11EB.2010605 ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 13:13:31 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Energy War References: <20050211172712.56708.qmail web51703.mail.yahoo.com> <00e001c51064$82c74a80$d0bcfea9@jonesb9pacbell> <6.2.0.14.2.20050211134628.02b22be0@pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050211134628.02b22be0 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57703 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > Jones Beene wrote: > >> "As China's Master Plan to Destroy America manifesto >> outlines, the multifaceted battle plan recommended by the >> Chinese military has taken shape...Financially: Using >> Currency as the Primary Weapon...[snip] > > > I think that is ridiculous. No one is more conservative than stable > communist dictator. The last thing the Chinese leaders want to do is > rock the boat or cause instability anywhere in the world. My father, who > was posted to the Soviet Union during WWII, said the Stalinists were the > most stick-in-the-mud right-wing conservatives he ever met in his life. As you have probably noticed, policy is based on what a country CAN do not on what we think it WILL do. Not only is it not possible to know how a country will behave, we have found that a country usually does what it CAN do. Consequently, given a clear advantage or an perceived threat, China has the power to destroy our economy. If it WILL do that depends on our behavior and on the rational behavior of China's leaders. Neither restriction gives me much comfort. > > The North Korean Communists are not stable, and they may be a threat to > other countries, but the Chinese leaders love the status quo. This > position paper from PLA should not be taken any more seriously than > these kooky right wing American plans to invade Iran, North Korea and > Syria over the next six months (or whenever it is). > > By the way, I doubt the North Koreans have actually made nuclear > weapons. Why should they bother? What use would they have for a bomb? If > they used it on anyone they would be blown to smithereens by the U.S. > They have all the leverage they need just by claiming to have bombs. I > read interviews with retired U.S. scientists from Los Alamos who visited > North Korea a few months ago. The Koreans tried to convince them that > they have weapons, but the experts saw no credible. They got the > impression that Koreans are trying to make everyone think they have > weapons. Saddam Hussein did the same thing for a long time, for reasons > only he can tell. If the Koreans actually had weapons or a weapons > production facility, they could have convinced the Los Alamos experts in > 15 minutes. The NK would not use the weapon, they would sell it. That way they get money and they have someone else do the dirty work and get the blame. Actually, they appear to be using the threat of selling as a way to gain influence and money. As long as a doubt remains about their having a weapon, they are safe from attack. Consequently, they playing poker while we are playing chess. > > I doubt there will be an energy war -- either economic or the shooting > kind of war. Fixing the energy crisis with conventional alternative > energy would be at least a thousand times cheaper. But if there is > conflict over energy, it will prove how right Arthur C. Clarke was when > he wrote in 1963: Cheaper yes, doable no. The oil companies will not give up the power and money they are making. A lot of things would be cheaper, but they are not done because too much pride and ignorance are involved. > > "The heavy hydrogen in the seas can drive all our machines, heat all our > cities, for as far ahead as we can imagine. If, as is perfectly > possible, we are short of energy two generations from now, it will be > through our own incompetence. We will be like Stone Age men freezing to > death on top of a coal bed." > > That should be, "Stone Age barbarians." It is great to believe that mankind would act in an ideal and rational way - it helps a person sleep nights. However, too many examples of opposite behavior are available to count on the ideal occurring- or am I just getting too old? Regards, Ed > > - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 11 13:22:33 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1BLME9W029797; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 13:22:14 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1BLMAks029773; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 13:22:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 13:22:10 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050211152003.02b0cc88 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 16:21:54 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Energy War In-Reply-To: <420D11EB.2010605 ix.netcom.com> References: <20050211172712.56708.qmail web51703.mail.yahoo.com> <00e001c51064$82c74a80$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> <6.2.0.14.2.20050211134628.02b22be0 pop.mindspring.com> <420D11EB.2010605 ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_25643171==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57704 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_25643171==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Edmund Storms wrote: >As you have probably noticed, policy is based on what a country CAN do not >on what we think it WILL do. Not only is it not possible to know how a >country will behave, we have found that a country usually does what it CAN do. The Soviet Union might have started a nuclear war anytime from 1949 to the day of its demise. Many people thought it would; some said it was inevitable. But there was never the slightest chance of that, according to most Russians who were close to power. If the Chinese government were to destroy the US economy, the Chinese government were also be brought down by the ensuing economic upheaval. Nations do not often destroy themselves for no reason. It does happen, I agree. The Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor, after all. The U.S. fought in Vietnam for years and years, long after it was obvious it could not win. >The NK would not use the weapon, they would sell it. That way they get >money and they have someone else do the dirty work and get the blame. If a bomb explodes anywhere in South Korea or Japan, North Korea will be destroyed, regardless of who plants it or who is responsible. Where else would North Korea want to attack? >Cheaper yes, doable no. The oil companies will not give up the power and >money they are making. A lot of things would be cheaper, but they are not >done because too much pride and ignorance are involved. The oil companies will not remain powerful forever -- and probably not for long. Political & economic dominance is evanescent. In 1890, many Americans felt that railroads and steel companies had an iron grip on the soul of the nation, and so much political power they would abolish democracy. But technology changed, and people no longer fear railroads. In 1975 IBM dominated the computer industry to such an extent, some experts predicted that all other computer companies would soon go out of business. Most computer purchasers did not even bother to look at equipment from other companies. By 1989, IBM was suffering the biggest losses in the history of commerce and the Wall Street Journal described it as "fading from view." >It is great to believe that mankind would act in an ideal and rational way >- it helps a person sleep nights. However, too many examples of opposite >behavior are available to count on the ideal occurring . . . Most people throughout most history have been rational and reasonable. Not ideal, but good enough. If that were not true our species would have gone extinct long ago. We are social animals -- pack hunting carnivores, like wolves. Such animals must to cooperate and protect other members of the pack, or they do not survive. We are only in danger now because our technology has increased our power. But our power has often escalated in the past, and we have usually survived these escalations. As shown in Jared Diamond's book "Collapse: How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed," even primitive people had the power to destroy themselves. Occasionally they did destroy themselves, but more often they survived. We often talk about the "madness of crowds" and the fact that people sometimes collectively go bonkers, in the Wall Street dot-com boom, for example. Yet paradoxically, when you take a large sample of people, you always find they are sane. A "large sample" is not a mob gathered in one place. It is a bunch of people at home or at work. Mobs can be inhumanly irrational, but once the mob scatters, and people go back to their daily lives, they usually recover. When you select 200 individual people at random, and examine their behavior in their normal, settled social context, you will find that on average they are sane, reasonable, and reliable. Most people do their jobs conscientiously. That is why your bread is baked and your telephone line stays connected. That is also why the experimental method works. The other day I wrote to reporter: "If several hundred researchers could all make large mistakes using 100 and 200-year-old techniques, science would never work in the first place. That is like asserting that you can select 200 carpenters at random, have each of them build a wooden house, and when they finish every single house might collapse because of mistakes the carpenters made. That would not happen in the lifetime of the universe. Of course newly-built houses do collapse from time to time. Individual carpenters do make drastic mistakes, and so do individual electrochemists. But they are never *all* mistaken." When 200+ physicists got together at the APS to listen to Robert Park the rabble rouser, they became an unruly mob. If you could isolate them in their laboratories and somehow have them to observe a cold fusion experiment, sanity would return and most of them would begin acting like professional scientists again. - Jed --=====================_25643171==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Edmund Storms wrote:

As you have probably noticed, policy is based on what a country CAN do not on what we think it WILL do.  Not only is it not possible to know how a country will behave, we have found that a country usually does what it CAN do.

The Soviet Union might have started a nuclear war anytime from 1949 to the day of its demise. Many people thought it would; some said it was inevitable. But there was never the slightest chance of that, according to most Russians who were close to power. If the Chinese government were to destroy the US economy, the Chinese government were also be brought down by the ensuing economic upheaval. Nations do not often destroy themselves for no reason. It does happen, I agree. The Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor, after all. The U.S. fought in Vietnam for years and years, long after it was obvious it could not win.


The NK would not use the weapon, they would sell it.  That way they get money and they have someone else do the dirty work and get the blame.

If a bomb explodes anywhere in South Korea or Japan, North Korea will be destroyed, regardless of who plants it or who is responsible. Where else would North Korea want to attack?


Cheaper yes, doable no.  The oil companies will not give up the power and money they are making.  A lot of things would be cheaper, but they are not done because too much pride and ignorance are involved.

The oil companies will not remain powerful forever -- and probably not for long. Political & economic dominance is evanescent. In 1890, many Americans felt that railroads and steel companies had an iron grip on the soul of the nation, and so much political power they would abolish democracy. But technology changed, and people no longer fear railroads. In 1975 IBM dominated the computer industry to such an extent, some experts predicted that all other computer companies would soon go out of business. Most computer purchasers did not even bother to look at equipment from other companies. By 1989, IBM was suffering the biggest losses in the history of commerce and the Wall Street Journal described it as "fading from view."


It is great to believe that mankind would act in an ideal and rational way - it helps a person sleep nights.  However, too many examples of opposite behavior are available to count on the ideal occurring . . .

Most people throughout most history have been rational and reasonable. Not ideal, but good enough. If that were not true our species would have gone extinct long ago. We are social animals -- pack hunting carnivores, like wolves. Such animals must to cooperate and protect other members of the pack, or they do not survive. We are only in danger now because our technology has increased our power. But our power has often escalated in the past, and we have usually survived these escalations. As shown in Jared Diamond's book "Collapse: How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed," even primitive people had the power to destroy themselves. Occasionally they did destroy themselves, but more often they survived.

We often talk about the "madness of crowds" and the fact that people sometimes collectively go bonkers, in the Wall Street dot-com boom, for example. Yet paradoxically, when you take a large sample of people,  you always find they are sane. A "large sample" is not a mob gathered in one place. It is a bunch of people at home or at work. Mobs can be inhumanly irrational, but once the mob scatters, and people go back to their daily lives, they usually recover. When you select 200 individual people at random, and examine their behavior in their normal, settled social context, you will find that on average they are sane, reasonable, and reliable. Most people do their jobs conscientiously. That is why your bread is baked and your telephone line stays connected. That is also why the experimental method works. The other day I wrote to reporter:

"If several hundred researchers could all make large mistakes using 100 and 200-year-old techniques, science would never work in the first place. That is like asserting that you can select 200 carpenters at random, have each of them build a wooden house, and when they finish every single house might collapse because of mistakes the carpenters made. That would not happen in the lifetime of the universe. Of course newly-built houses do collapse from time to time. Individual carpenters do make drastic mistakes, and so do individual electrochemists. But they are never *all* mistaken."

When 200+ physicists got together at the APS to listen to Robert Park the rabble rouser, they became an unruly mob. If you could isolate them in their laboratories and somehow have them to observe a cold fusion experiment, sanity would return and most of them would begin acting like professional scientists again.

- Jed
 --=====================_25643171==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 11 14:11:00 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1BMAa9W020371; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 14:10:37 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1BM9j2Y019996; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 14:09:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 14:09:45 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050211170638.029870e0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 17:09:24 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: OFF TOPIC N.Y. Times offers bad advice to HP Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_28488781==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57705 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --=====================_28488781==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed From a N. Y. Times editorial today: "Hewlett's board says it isn't considering retreating from Ms. Fiorina's goal of offering a smorgasbord of high-tech goodies to businesses and consumers. Let's hope that's just machismo. The best thing Hewlett could do would be to get rid of the bells and whistles Ms. Fiorina acquired, and focus on its core - and enormously profitable - business: printers and cartridges." Jed adds: . . . enormously profitable until maybe five years from now, when someone finally comes out with viable e-books and e-paper with resolution and contrast as good as real paper. Then the company tanks. Never put all your eggs in one technological basket. I depend upon paper printouts quite a bit, but I recently added a second screen to my computer -- a 19" flat panel. It reduces the use of paper because I can compare full-page documents side-by-side. Sooner or later, someone will build an e-book style "e-printer" the takes output to a printer port and displays it on a 20" flat panel that lies on your desk (horizontal and flat!) and does nothing but flip back and forth between pages and page thumbnails. That will eliminate maybe half of the printer market. - Jed --=====================_28488781==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" From a N. Y. Times editorial today:

"Hewlett's board says it isn't considering retreating from Ms. Fiorina's goal of offering a smorgasbord of high-tech goodies to businesses and consumers. Let's hope that's just machismo. The best thing Hewlett could do would be to get rid of the bells and whistles Ms. Fiorina acquired, and focus on its core - and enormously profitable - business: printers and cartridges."

Jed adds:  . . . enormously profitable until maybe five years from now, when someone finally comes out with viable e-books and e-paper with resolution and contrast as good as real paper. Then the company tanks.

Never put all your eggs in one technological basket.

I depend upon paper printouts quite a bit, but I recently added a second screen to my computer -- a 19" flat panel. It reduces the use of paper because I can compare full-page documents side-by-side. Sooner or later, someone will build an e-book style "e-printer" the takes output to a printer port and displays it on a 20" flat panel that lies on your desk (horizontal and flat!) and does nothing but flip back and forth between pages and page thumbnails. That will eliminate maybe half of the printer market.

- Jed
 --=====================_28488781==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 11 14:57:50 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1BMvW9W008694; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 14:57:32 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1BMvUNs008681; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 14:57:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 14:57:30 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 17:54:46 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC N.Y. Times offers bad advice to HP In-reply-to: <6.2.0.14.2.20050211170638.029870e0 pop.mindspring.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_VXWFAmnTd00mSzZsPUWJ/g)" User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57706 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --Boundary_(ID_VXWFAmnTd00mSzZsPUWJ/g) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT The Ink jet concept is not going to disappear because of e-books. The ink jet concept is now used to print 3-D models. Engineers are thinking about scaling up the technology to make houses using quick drying cement as the 'ink'. Some day your children or grandchildren might be living in a house built by HP! Harry Jed Rothwell at jedrothwell mindspring.com wrote: >From a N. Y. Times editorial today: "Hewlett's board says it isn't considering retreating from Ms. Fiorina's goal of offering a smorgasbord of high-tech goodies to businesses and consumers. Let's hope that's just machismo. The best thing Hewlett could do would be to get rid of the bells and whistles Ms. Fiorina acquired, and focus on its core - and enormously profitable - business: printers and cartridges." Jed adds: . . . enormously profitable until maybe five years from now, when someone finally comes out with viable e-books and e-paper with resolution and contrast as good as real paper. Then the company tanks. Never put all your eggs in one technological basket. I depend upon paper printouts quite a bit, but I recently added a second screen to my computer -- a 19" flat panel. It reduces the use of paper because I can compare full-page documents side-by-side. Sooner or later, someone will build an e-book style "e-printer" the takes output to a printer port and displays it on a 20" flat panel that lies on your desk (horizontal and flat!) and does nothing but flip back and forth between pages and page thumbnails. That will eliminate maybe half of the printer market. - Jed --Boundary_(ID_VXWFAmnTd00mSzZsPUWJ/g) Content-type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Re: OFF TOPIC N.Y. Times offers bad advice to HP The Ink jet concept is not going to disappear because of e-books.
The ink jet concept is now used to print 3-D models.
Engineers are thinking about scaling up the technology to make houses
using quick drying cement as the 'ink'.

Some day your children or grandchildren might be living in a house
built by HP!

Harry

Jed Rothwell at jedrothwell mindspring.com wrote:

From a N. Y. Times editorial today:

"Hewlett's board says it isn't considering retreating from Ms. Fiorina's goal of offering a smorgasbord of high-tech goodies to businesses and consumers. Let's hope that's just machismo. The best thing Hewlett could do would be to get rid of the bells and whistles Ms. Fiorina acquired, and focus on its core - and enormously profitable - business: printers and cartridges."

Jed adds:  . . . enormously profitable until maybe five years from now, when someone finally comes out with viable e-books and e-paper with resolution and contrast as good as real paper. Then the company tanks.

Never put all your eggs in one technological basket.

I depend upon paper printouts quite a bit, but I recently added a second screen to my computer -- a 19" flat panel. It reduces the use of paper because I can compare full-page documents side-by-side. Sooner or later, someone will build an e-book style "e-printer" the takes output to a printer port and displays it on a 20" flat panel that lies on your desk (horizontal and flat!) and does nothing but flip back and forth between pages and page thumbnails. That will eliminate maybe half of the printer market.

- Jed


--Boundary_(ID_VXWFAmnTd00mSzZsPUWJ/g)-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 11 15:02:38 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1BN2F9W010704; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 15:02:15 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1BN2BM1010679; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 15:02:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 15:02:11 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [64.174.37.158] X-Originating-Email: [mgoldes msn.com] X-Sender: mgoldes msn.com From: "Mark Goldes" To: jonesb9 pacbell.net, vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: CLOUDY DAY, SWEEPING THE DOOM AWAY Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 15:01:39 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 11 Feb 2005 23:02:01.0275 (UTC) FILETIME=[B200B0B0:01C5108D] Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57707 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Artificially enhanced clouds may ease global warming, scientists say With gloomy scientific report after gloomy scientific report warning about our globally warmed future, finally one group of scientists is offering a ray of sunshine -- in the unlikely form of clouds. Low-altitude, lumpy gray clouds, called stratocumulus, have the desirable quality of being especially reflective at their tops, which the scientists hope to exploit. Since, as atmospheric scientist John Latham says, "clouds become more reflective if you increase the number of droplets in them," the eggheads propose spraying seawater high into the air near stratocumulus clouds, causing salt particles to be absorbed, extra droplets to form, and the clouds to become both more reflective and longer-lasting. Thus would more sunlight be bounced back into space before it can warm the planet. Latham says the group found that in climate models, "[m]odifying an area covering around 3 percent of the Earth's surface produced a cooling that more or less balances the warming from doubled carbon dioxide levels." However, he cautioned, it's no long-term solution. "Our endeavors are directed toward buying time." straight to the source: The Guardian, Kate Ravilious, 10 Feb 2005 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 11 15:03:47 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1BN3S9W011208; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 15:03:29 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1BN3QAM011188; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 15:03:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 15:03:26 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20050211150221.0561f7c8 mail.dlsi.net> X-Sender: steven%newenergytimes.com mail.dlsi.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 15:06:28 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: Energy War In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050211152003.02b0cc88 pop.mindspring.com> References: <420D11EB.2010605 ix.netcom.com> <20050211172712.56708.qmail web51703.mail.yahoo.com> <00e001c51064$82c74a80$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> <6.2.0.14.2.20050211134628.02b22be0 pop.mindspring.com> <420D11EB.2010605 ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57708 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Nice one, Jed >"If several hundred researchers could all make large mistakes using 100 >and 200-year-old techniques, science would never work in the first place. >That is like asserting that you can select 200 carpenters at random, have >each of them build a wooden house, and when they finish every single house >might collapse because of mistakes the carpenters made. That would not >happen in the lifetime of the universe. Of course newly-built houses do >collapse from time to time. Individual carpenters do make drastic >mistakes, and so do individual electrochemists. But they are never *all* >mistaken." Steve From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 11 15:10:05 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1BN9o9W015912; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 15:09:50 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1BN9law015876; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 15:09:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 15:09:47 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: CLOUDY DAY, SWEEPING THE DOOM AWAY Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 10:09:39 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j1BN9i9W015831 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57709 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Mark Goldes's message of Fri, 11 Feb 2005 15:01:39 -0800: Hi, [snip] >the scientists hope to exploit. Since, as atmospheric scientist John >Latham says, "clouds become more reflective if you increase the >number of droplets in them," the eggheads propose spraying seawater >high into the air near stratocumulus clouds, causing salt particles >to be absorbed, extra droplets to form, and the clouds to become both >more reflective and longer-lasting. Thus would more sunlight be [snip] I once saw a program on cloud seeding. The best results appear to have been obtained downwind from a paper factory because the smoke released through the chimney contained salt particles which drifted up into the bottom of the clouds. IOW the method proposed above may only succeed in increasing rainfall from the clouds. If anything, the effect would be counter productive, shortening the life span of the clouds. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 11 15:28:57 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1BNSc9W027814; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 15:28:39 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1BNSaYT027786; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 15:28:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 15:28:36 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <3k70ii$mvktr9 mxip18a.cluster1.charter.net> X-Ironport-AV: i="3.88,196,1102309200"; d="scan'208"; a="771389289:sNHT13950384" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.12 (webedge20-101-197-20030912) From: To: Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC N.Y. Times offers bad advice to HP Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 23:28:27 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57710 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >From Jed: ... > I depend upon paper printouts quite a bit, but I recently > added a second screen to my computer -- a 19" flat panel. > It reduces the use of paper because I can compare full- > page documents side-by-side. Sooner or later, someone > will build an e-book style "e-printer" the takes output > to a printer port and displays it on a 20" flat panel > that lies on your desk (horizontal and flat!) and does > nothing but flip back and forth between pages and page > thumbnails. That will eliminate maybe half of the > printer market I use a dual monitor system as well - a 20" and a 19" monitor to help me create my digital art. I would never go back to a mono-monitor system! At present most graphic artists are forced to rely on huge bulky CRTs as they are the only reasonably priced devices available in the market capable of producing accurate colors. It will be a great day in the professional illustration world when equivalent sized flat screen monitors are capable of generating the same specs that most high-end 20+ inch CRT monitors currently display. I also won't have to worry about rupturing myself every time I'm forced to move one of these horrid monsters. I agree with Jed that it's only a matter of time before conveniently priced 20-inch flat screen e-books make it to the market. Personally, I think it's possible within the next 5 - 10 years. I suspect the biggest obstacle will be the price however. The printer market is not the only industry that stands to experience major disruptions in sales. I suspect it has already been predicted by a slew of visionaries that when large full-color 20" sized e-books are eventually massed produced at reasonable prices it is likely to be disruptive in many corners of the publishing industry. I suspect the key to its success really comes down to when the population starts using flat screen e-books as the PREFERRED way to read most of their literature for both at work and at home. When that transition occurs the traditional publishing industry will be forced to rethink many of their current business models. Their markets may be reduced to generating quaint coffee table books printed on acid-free paper, or large atlas-sized maps, and Thomas Kinkade (Ugh!) calendars. Come to think of it, a nice twenty pound coffee table photo book of the solar system complete with the latest robotic rover images would look nifty placed next to my set of Encyclopedia Britanicas. The good and the bad in all of this is that anybody and everyone will be capable of publishing the best and worst American novel (and art books too!). The information glut is likely to only intensify. The playing field will be leveled even more than it is today. As for those rare writers and artists that are deservedly capable of turning pro, the collection of royalties through electronic distribution could be a real nightmare considering all the bootlegging that goes on today. Hopefully this will be worked out. But Jed, don't stop there. The ENTIRE SURFACE OF MY DESK should eventually be converted into flat screen display. This would allow me to shuffle documents whether and neither. IMHO, an Ideal office desk would consist of the entire surface of a desktop converted into a display screen ALONG WITH an equivalent sized vertical flat display behind the desk as well. I think Robert Heinlein already envisioned an equivalent "desk top" concept decades ago in one of his classic novels "A Door into Summer." Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 11 15:32:34 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1BNW99W029479; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 15:32:09 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1BNW3w0029428; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 15:32:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 15:32:03 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050211180247.0297cf40 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 18:31:39 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC N.Y. Times offers bad advice to HP In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050211170638.029870e0 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_33424015==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57711 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_33424015==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Harry Veeder wrote: >The Ink jet concept is not going to disappear because of e-books. >The ink jet concept is now used to print 3-D models. >Engineers are thinking about scaling up the technology to make houses >using quick drying cement as the 'ink'. That's true, but I doubt that is what the New York Times had in mind. They said, "printers and cartridges." That is like telling IBM in 1960 they should stick to the punch card business because it is so profitable. Mind you, I am not predicting that paper will suddenly disappear because of e-books and e-printers. But it will gradually decline, year by year, until it is only perhaps a tenth of what it is today. The trend in manufacturing is to lay down smaller and smaller units. The starting material is often on a smaller scale, too. Metal parts made starting from powder no longer need to be finished or ground into shape, because they are formed in the proper shape to start with. Assembling parts is done with Ink-jet devices today and -- as Veeder says -- new devices will probably evolve from them in the future. In the far distant future, I expect these machines will be assembling products one atom at a time. Arthur Clarke predicted that in "Profiles of the Future." (Roger Bacon, Francis Bacon and Arthur Clarke together predicted just about everything -- leaving no room for other futurologists. Also, as Clarke says, Hugo Gernsback, "thought of everything.") Some experts are very upset by this prediction of "atomic assembly" because they point out, no doubt correctly, that we have no idea how to move one atom of most elements at a time. Most of the time when you try to move an atom with something like a diamond point, it ends up sticking to the diamond rather than the substrate or the molecule you are trying to move it into. I suppose what this means is that the progress we must make before we can assemble products one atom at a time is roughly as great as all of the progress we have made so far, from stone-age flint tools to the present. It may take centuries, or perhaps thousands of years. Nevertheless, I expect it will eventually be done, and I am sure it can be done, because nature does it with DNA. Some clever person here suggested that most future products will, in fact, be assembled with DNA, from organic materials. That's a clever idea! If it happens, I suspect it will only be a way station along the way to assembling anything out of any materials, who knows how -- with force fields, perhaps? Also, Clarke (and I) predict industrial scale transmutation, so we will actually be assembling atoms out of other atoms, to make molecules, to make products. One of the big advantages of this will be that it will make "original works of art" and all so-called "luxury goods" as cheap as dirt. That, I hope, will put an end to mindless materialism. - Jed --=====================_33424015==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Harry Veeder wrote:

The Ink jet concept is not going to disappear because of e-books.
The ink jet concept is now used to print 3-D models.
Engineers are thinking about scaling up the technology to make houses
using quick drying cement as the 'ink'.

That's true, but I doubt that is what the New York Times had in mind. They said, "printers and cartridges." That is like telling IBM in 1960 they should stick to the punch card business because it is so profitable.

Mind you, I am not predicting that paper will suddenly disappear because of e-books and e-printers. But it will gradually decline, year by year, until it is only perhaps a tenth of what it is today.

The trend in manufacturing is to lay down smaller and smaller units. The starting material is often on a smaller scale, too. Metal parts made starting from powder no longer need to be finished or ground into shape, because they are formed in the proper shape to start with. Assembling parts is done with Ink-jet devices today and -- as Veeder says -- new devices will probably evolve from them in the future. In the far distant future, I expect these machines will be assembling products one atom at a time. Arthur Clarke predicted that in "Profiles of the Future." (Roger Bacon, Francis Bacon and Arthur Clarke together predicted just about everything -- leaving no room for other futurologists. Also, as Clarke says, Hugo Gernsback, "thought of everything.")

Some experts are very upset by this prediction of "atomic assembly" because they point out, no doubt correctly, that we have no idea how to move one atom of most elements at a time. Most of the time when you try to move an atom with something like a diamond point, it ends up sticking to the diamond rather than the substrate or the molecule you are trying to move it into. I suppose what this means is that the progress we must make before we can assemble products one atom at a time is roughly as great as all of the progress we have made so far, from stone-age flint tools to the present. It may take centuries, or perhaps thousands of years. Nevertheless, I expect it will eventually be done, and I am sure it can be done, because nature does it with DNA.

Some clever person here suggested that most future products will, in fact, be assembled with DNA, from organic materials. That's a clever idea! If it happens, I suspect it will only be a way station along the way to assembling anything out of any materials, who knows how -- with force fields, perhaps?

Also, Clarke (and I) predict industrial scale transmutation, so we will actually be assembling atoms out of other atoms, to make molecules, to make products.

One of the big advantages of this will be that it will make "original works of art" and all so-called "luxury goods" as cheap as dirt. That, I hope, will put an end to mindless materialism.

- Jed
--=====================_33424015==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 10 19:13:01 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1B3Cku8031768; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 19:12:46 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1B3Ciom031749; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 19:12:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 19:12:44 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <05f001c50fe7$cf490ba0$4b01a8c0 colin5fc9e2583> Reply-To: "Colin Quinney" From: "Colin Quinney" To: References: <420B5255.4030409@ihug.co.nz> Subject: Earthquake Coincidence? Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 22:14:33 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2527 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2527 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57687 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com X-Suspected-Spam: billb friends5 Status: RO X-Status: Vorts, From: Examine the collision damage from the Antarctic B-15a iceberg in the streaming video. That iceberg is the size of Long Island. Note the date of collision with the shelf. ( http://www.nasa.gov/mpg/105894main_crack_movie.mpg ) Estimate the velocity, metric tons, and momentum of the collision and recall the date of the earthquake 9 (Tsunami) was Dec 25th. This is merely a coincidence. Right? Colin From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 10 20:02:10 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1B41du8020342; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 20:01:44 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1B41axw020300; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 20:01:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 20:01:36 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <062e01c50fee$a18fdc00$4b01a8c0 colin5fc9e2583> Reply-To: "Colin Quinney" From: "Colin Quinney" To: References: <5.2.0.9.2.20050210140458.030cce18 mail.dlsi.net> Subject: Re: Thanks V & Bill B & Donations? Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 23:03:23 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2527 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2527 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57689 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com X-Suspected-Spam: billb friends5 Status: RO X-Status: Paypal donations to Bill Beaty for maintaining Vortex. Steven, that is an excellent idea. I live in Canada so to send Bill a donation I have to first look up his address on the Internet, then a trip to the bank to get in line for a US money order, then find envelope and stamp and a trip to the post box to mail it off. It's been way too long since I've done that. I'm remiss.. But if I could use Paypal ... Colin ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven Krivit" To: Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 5:06 PM Subject: Thanks V & Bill B & Donations? >I also want to say to the Vortex group that I really appreciate the recent >insightful, articulate and well-reasoned discussions that have occurred >here of late. While there may not be any streets or homes here, this is >clearly a well-defined and functional community. It is a place that I can >count on for intelligent scientific debate and discussion. > > Thank you Bill B. > Hey Bill, how about a Paypal-type system so we can donate? > > > Steve > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 11 19:06:36 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1C36EPO027244; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 19:06:15 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1C36BCD027209; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 19:06:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 19:06:11 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "John Steck" To: Subject: RE: OFF TOPIC N.Y. Times offers bad advice to HP Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 21:06:58 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <3k70ii$mvktr9 mxip18a.cluster1.charter.net> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57712 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: It's already a great day in the professional graphics world... http://www.mwave.com/mwave/viewspec.hmx?scriteria=3505972 -john -----Original Message----- From: orionworks charter.net [mailto:orionworks@charter.net] Sent: Friday, February 11, 2005 5:28 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC N.Y. Times offers bad advice to HP >From Jed: ... > I depend upon paper printouts quite a bit, but I recently > added a second screen to my computer -- a 19" flat panel. > It reduces the use of paper because I can compare full- > page documents side-by-side. Sooner or later, someone > will build an e-book style "e-printer" the takes output > to a printer port and displays it on a 20" flat panel > that lies on your desk (horizontal and flat!) and does > nothing but flip back and forth between pages and page > thumbnails. That will eliminate maybe half of the > printer market I use a dual monitor system as well - a 20" and a 19" monitor to help me create my digital art. I would never go back to a mono-monitor system! At present most graphic artists are forced to rely on huge bulky CRTs as they are the only reasonably priced devices available in the market capable of producing accurate colors. It will be a great day in the professional illustration world when equivalent sized flat screen monitors are capable of generating the same specs that most high-end 20+ inch CRT monitors currently display. I also won't have to worry about rupturing myself every time I'm forced to move one of these horrid monsters. I agree with Jed that it's only a matter of time before conveniently priced 20-inch flat screen e-books make it to the market. Personally, I think it's possible within the next 5 - 10 years. I suspect the biggest obstacle will be the price however. The printer market is not the only industry that stands to experience major disruptions in sales. I suspect it has already been predicted by a slew of visionaries that when large full-color 20" sized e-books are eventually massed produced at reasonable prices it is likely to be disruptive in many corners of the publishing industry. I suspect the key to its success really comes down to when the population starts using flat screen e-books as the PREFERRED way to read most of their literature for both at work and at home. When that transition occurs the traditional publishing industry will be forced to rethink many of their current business models. Their markets may be reduced to generating quaint coffee table books printed on acid-free paper, or large atlas-sized maps, and Thomas Kinkade (Ugh!) calendars. Come to think of it, a nice twenty pound coffee table photo book of the solar system complete with the latest robotic rover images would look nifty placed next to my set of Encyclopedia Britanicas. The good and the bad in all of this is that anybody and everyone will be capable of publishing the best and worst American novel (and art books too!). The information glut is likely to only intensify. The playing field will be leveled even more than it is today. As for those rare writers and artists that are deservedly capable of turning pro, the collection of royalties through electronic distribution could be a real nightmare considering all the bootlegging that goes on today. Hopefully this will be worked out. But Jed, don't stop there. The ENTIRE SURFACE OF MY DESK should eventually be converted into flat screen display. This would allow me to shuffle documents whether and neither. IMHO, an Ideal office desk would consist of the entire surface of a desktop converted into a display screen ALONG WITH an equivalent sized vertical flat display behind the desk as well. I think Robert Heinlein already envisioned an equivalent "desk top" concept decades ago in one of his classic novels "A Door into Summer." Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.7 - Release Date: 10-Feb-05 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 11 19:15:17 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1C3F0PO030675; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 19:15:04 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1C3EuAp030638; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 19:14:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 19:14:56 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: Message-ID: <005f01c510b0$fedcaa10$4a50ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <20050211172712.56708.qmail web51703.mail.yahoo.com> <00e001c51064$82c74a80$d0bcfea9@jonesb9pacbell> <6.2.0.14.2.20050211134628.02b22be0@pop.mindspring.com> <420D11EB.2010605@ix.netcom.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050211152003.02b0cc88@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Energy War Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 22:02:10 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57713 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed wrote: . . . Most people throughout most history have been rational and reasonable. Not ideal, but good enough. If that were not true our species would have gone extinct long ago. We are social animals -- pack hunting carnivores, like wolves. Such animals must to cooperate and protect other members of the pack, or they do not survive. We are only in danger now because our technology has increased our power. But our power has often escalated in the past, and we have usually survived these escalations. As shown in Jared Diamond's book "Collapse: How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed," even primitive people had the power to destroy themselves. Occasionally they did destroy themselves, but more often they survived. MC: I don't know of Jed has read Diamond's book: I recommended it the other day. It is easy to see China as a looming threat, as the USSR seemed during the cold way. Diamond characterizes it as a "lurching giant", not a s drunk, but because of its size and highly centralized government, changes in drection move a lot of 'mass'. As with the USSR, internal problems eventually made it weaker than it looked, and it may be so with China as well. This cnetralized government both enabled the early growth of technology long before Europe, enabled the buildingof a great fleet of exploration in the 1400s [which mapped the world and discovered the Americas and Antartica] and also led to the collapse of that expansion and a turn inward that lasted for centuries. MC: Of course they will set up their own network of oil sources, as does the US. They are buying massive amounts of stuff from the US in building their infrastructure -- this is good for Amaerican jobs and business, isn't it? Reduces the trade deficit? Or are we becoming a colony, exporting our mineral and agricultural resources while buying manufactured goods from others? If we 'gave this away' it is the fault of every consumer who bought for the lowest price, and of workers who demanded ever higher wages and benefits. Or blame the Wright Brothers and Fulton, whose inventions in transport made a global economy possible. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 11 19:36:35 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1C3aJPO006872; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 19:36:20 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1C3aIdG006846; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 19:36:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 19:36:18 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <420D79A8.5080108 pobox.com> Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 22:36:08 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.5) Gecko/20050105 Debian/1.7.5-1 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC N.Y. Times offers bad advice to HP References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050211170638.029870e0 pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050211170638.029870e0 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57714 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > From a N. Y. Times editorial today: > > "Hewlett's board says it isn't considering retreating from Ms. > Fiorina's goal of offering a smorgasbord of high-tech goodies to > businesses and consumers. Let's hope that's just machismo. The best > thing Hewlett could do would be to get rid of the bells and whistles > Ms. Fiorina acquired, and focus on its core - and enormously > profitable - business: printers and cartridges." > > Jed adds: . . . enormously profitable until maybe five years from > now, when someone finally comes out with viable e-books and e-paper > with resolution and contrast as good as real paper. Then the company > tanks. > > Never put all your eggs in one technological basket. Um ... it's worth remembering that HP was already a computer company before Carly decided to buy Compaq. In fact, HP has, from time to time, been in the forefront of the workstation market. The PARisc architecture was, for a time, the fastest thing around. Admittedly that was quite a while back. Compaq bought Dec and continued to operate it as a high end line within the Compaq family -- the Dec systems weren't really in the same market as other Compaq products. Then Carly bought Compaq ... that's it for Dec, that's it for Compaq, and HP got trashed in the process. What good is it to bring a second (or third) company inhouse that does exactly what you're already doing? Not much. They didn't need the products, and they didn't get the best of the people, so what did they gain? A sophisticated high-performance operating system? No, they threw Tru64 overboard along with the Alpha. Some buildings, maybe? A sales staff? Loyal customers? Hahhah. The mistake the board made was in not getting rid of her five years earlier. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 11 19:48:08 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1C3lnPO011556; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 19:47:53 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1C3lYIq011344; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 19:47:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 19:47:34 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 19:47:22 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: OOPS, WRONG ADDR Thanks V & Bill B & Donations? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57715 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Actually, since 2001 it has been: William J. Beaty 7540 20th Ave NW Seattle, WA, 98117 Also see: AMASCI.COM TIP JAR http://amasci.com/tipjar.html On Fri, 11 Feb 2005, Horace Heffner wrote: > For snailmail just send a check to: > > William J. Beaty > 7040 22nd Ave NW > Seattle, WA 98117 > > Regards, > > Horace Heffner > > (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 11 21:15:39 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1C5FOPO017113; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 21:15:24 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1C5FLqr017091; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 21:15:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 21:15:21 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 20:15:02 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: OOPS, WRONG ADDR Thanks V & Bill B & Donations? Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57716 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 7:47 PM 2/11/5, William Beaty wrote: >Actually, since 2001 it has been: > > William J. Beaty > 7540 20th Ave NW > Seattle, WA, 98117 Sorry! I got the address from: >On Fri, 11 Feb 2005, Horace Heffner wrote: > >> For snailmail just send a check to: >> >> William J. Beaty >> 7040 22nd Ave NW >> Seattle, WA 98117 Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 11 22:06:10 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1C65dPO002043; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 22:05:40 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1C65aRs002012; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 22:05:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 22:05:36 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20050211220637.00aeeb50 mail.dlsi.net> X-Sender: steven%newenergytimes.com mail.dlsi.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 22:08:36 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC N.Y. Times offers bad advice to HP In-Reply-To: <420D79A8.5080108 pobox.com> References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050211170638.029870e0 pop.mindspring.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050211170638.029870e0 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57717 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > >Compaq bought Dec and continued to operate it as a high end line within >the Compaq family -- the Dec systems weren't really in the same market as >other Compaq products. Then Carly bought Compaq ... that's it for Dec, >that's it for Compaq, and HP got trashed in the process. What good is it >to bring a second (or third) company inhouse that does exactly what you're >already doing? Not much. They didn't need the products, and they didn't >get the best of the people, so what did they gain? A sophisticated >high-performance operating system? No, they threw Tru64 overboard along >with the Alpha. Some buildings, maybe? A sales staff? >Loyal customers? Hahhah. > >The mistake the board made was in not getting rid of her five years earlier. What did they get? That's a great question and I wonder as well. What did they think they were getting? I presume they thought they were eliminating their largest competitor. Now then. Has that helped them? s From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 11 22:09:45 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1C69bPO003577; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 22:09:37 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1C69VV2003536; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 22:09:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 22:09:31 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20050211221041.00af7d68 mail.dlsi.net> X-Sender: steven%newenergytimes.com mail.dlsi.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 22:12:40 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: OOPS, WRONG ADDR Thanks V & Bill B & Donations? In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <2jomiC.A.H3.b2ZDCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57718 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Bill, do you find the 3 bucks to be an ideal choice? Rather than a variable amount? I was certainly willing to give more... I saw your wishlist...for GB WWW DASD you might check out startlogic.com s From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 11 22:48:40 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1C6mTPO016787; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 22:48:30 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1C6mRAW016761; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 22:48:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 22:48:27 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: OFF TOPIC N.Y. Times offers bad advice to HP Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 01:49:22 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20050211220637.00aeeb50 mail.dlsi.net> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57719 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >The mistake the board made was in not getting rid of her five years earlier. >What did they think they were getting? More play on their stock price. Currently trading around 20 from a high of ~80, the S&P clobbered it in the last 5 years. The recovery in 2003 never touched them. Her plan, whatever it was, failed. They made OK test equipment, I was sad to see that go. Their old computers were built like tanks, remember? There is nothing to distinguish the new ones except the brand name. Can't say as I'm too sad to see Fiorina go. Neither is the market, the stock is holding at about 1.5$ over the Fiorina period price. If million dollar CEO salaries are justified by the value they add to the company, and firing her _adds_ a couple billion to the companies valuation, shouldn't HP bill her or something? Just asking. K. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 12 07:29:00 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1CFSjPO006543; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 07:28:45 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1CFSgRX006525; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 07:28:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 07:28:42 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <3rr4ua$hqf9us mxip06a.cluster1.charter.net> X-Ironport-AV: i="3.88,196,1102309200"; d="scan'208"; a="598190044:sNHT12233944" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.12 (webedge20-101-197-20030912) From: To: Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC N.Y. Times offers bad advice to HP Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 15:28:34 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57720 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: "John Steck" > It's already a great day in the professional graphics > world... > http://www.mwave.com/mwave/viewspec.hmx?scriteria=3505972 > > -john > Yes, the day is approaching. Nice resolution specs! They still need to shave about a thousand dollars off the current price tag. It will happen... I bet it uses a lot less energy than what an equivalent sized CRT monitor would as well. That should please most Vorts. Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 12 07:59:35 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1CFxJPO021892; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 07:59:20 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1CFxGxH021833; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 07:59:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 07:59:16 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <420E2834.4030005 ix.netcom.com> Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 09:00:52 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex Subject: off topic economics Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57721 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In case some of you are still not too bored about economic discussion, here is a very good article about how we got into the mess we are in. The combination of low interest rates, outsourcing, and deficit spending both in government and industry has created a witches brew that is expected to produce economic collapse in the very near future, regardless of what China does. Bush et al., based on the submitted budget, show no awareness of the problem and are continuing to base policy on lies. The only defense is personal awareness on which you can base a personal defense before the axe falls. Regards, Ed GREENSPAN'S WHOPPER by Bill Bonner "You are wasting your life and your talents writing about Alan Greenspan every day," said an old friend. For years, we have been working on Greenspan's obituary. As far as we know, the man is still in excellent health. But we do not want to be caught off guard. Maybe we could even rush out a quickie biography, explaining to the masses the meaning of Mr. Greenspan's life and work. Perhaps our friend is right. But then again, we weren't doing anything special before we started keeping up with the Fed chairman. Besides, we see something in Alan Greenspan's career...his comportment...his betrayal of his old ideas...his pact with the Devil in Washington...and his attempt to hold off nature's revenge at least until he leaves the Fed...that is both entertaining and educational. It smacks of Greek tragedy without the boring monologues or bloody intrigues. Even the language of it is Greek to most people. Though the Fed chairman speaks English, of course, his words often need translation and historical annotation. Rarely does the maestro make a statement that is comprehensible to the ordinary mortal. So much the better, we guess. If the average fellow really knew what he was talking about, he would be alarmed. And we have no illusions. Whoever attempts to explain it to him will get no thanks; he might as well tell his teenage daughter what is in her hotdog. We persevere anyway, more in mischief than in earnest. The background: The U.S. economy faced a major recession in 2001 and had a minor one. The necessary slump he held off by a dramatic resort to central planning. The "invisible hand" is fine for lumber and poultry prices. But at the short end of the market in debt, Alan Greenspan's paw presses down, like a butcher's thumb on the meat scale. The Fed quickly cut rates to head off the recession. Indeed, never before had rates been cut so much, so fast. George W. Bush, meanwhile, boosted spending. The resultant shock of renewed, ersatz demand not only postponed the recession; it misled consumers, investors and businessmen to make even more egregious errors. Investors bought stock with low earnings yields. Consumers went further into debt. Government liabilities rose. The trade deficit grew larger. Even on the other side of the globe, foreign businessmen geared up to meet the phony new demand; China enjoyed a capital spending boom as excessive as any the world has ever seen. What the Greenspan Fed had accomplished was to put off a natural, cyclical correction and transmogrify an entire economy into a monstrous ECONOMIC bubble. A bubble in stock prices may do little real economic damage. Eventually, the bubble pops and the phony money people thought they had disappears like a puff of marijuana smoke. There are winners and losers. But in the end, the economy is about where it began - unharmed and unhelped. The households are still there...and still spending money as they did before...and the companies still in business. Only those that leveraged themselves too highly in the bubble years are in any trouble - and they probably deserve to go out of business. Even a property bubble may come and go with little effect on the overall economy. House prices have been running up in France, for example, at nearly the same rates as in America. But in France there is very little mortgage refinancing...or "taking out" of equity. The European Central Bank was repeatedly urged to lower rates in line with those in America. It refused to budge. Without falling rates, there was no "refi boom." Nor were European banks offering "home equity lines of credit." Property could run up...and run down...and the only people who cared would be the actual buyers or sellers, who either cursed themselves or felt like geniuses, depending on their luck. But in Greenspan's bubble economy something remarkably awful happened. Householders were lured to "take out" the equity in their homes. They believed that the bubble in real estate priced created "wealth" that they could spend. Many did not hesitate. Mortgage debt ballooned in the early years of the 21st century - from about $6 trillion in 1999 to nearly $9 trillion at the end of 2004. Three trillion dollars may not seem like much to you, dear reader. But it increased the average household's debt by $30,000. Americans still lived in more or less the same houses. But they owed far more on them. We had given up all hope of ever getting an honest word out of the Fed chairman on this subject when, in early February, in the year of our Lord 2005, the maestro slipped up. His speech was entitled "Current Account." Jet lagged, his defenses down, the poor man seems to have committed truth. "The growth of home mortgage debt has been the major contributor to the decline in the personal saving rate in the United States from almost 6 percent in 1993 to its current level of 1 percent," he admitted. Thus, he did bring the up the subject. Then, he began a confession: The rapid growth in home mortgage debt over the past five years has been "driven largely by equity extraction," said the man most responsible for it. By this time, listeners were beginning to put Mr. Greenspan at the scene of the crime. And pretty soon, even the dullest economist in the room was adding 2 and 2. Mr. Greenspan lowered lending rates far below where a free market in credit would have put them. With little to be gained by putting money in savings accounts...and a lot to be gained by borrowing...households did what you would expect; they ceased saving and began borrowing. What did they borrow against? The rising value of their homes - "extracting equity," to use Mr. Greenspan's own jargon. The Fed chairman had misled them into believing that house prices increases were the same as new, disposable wealth. But the world's most famous and most revered economist didn't stop there. He must have had the audience on the edge of its chairs. He confessed not only to having done the thing...but also to having his wits about him when he did it. This was no accident. No negligence. This was intentional. "Approximately half of equity extraction shows up in additional household expenditures, reducing savings commensurately and thereby presumably contributing to the current account deficit.... The fall in U.S. interest rates since the early 1980s has supported home price increases," continues America's answer to Adam Smith. People take money out of their homes. With this source of spending power available to them, they see no reason to save. Instead, they spend - often on foreign-made goods. With no savings available domestically, America must look overseas for credit. "The obvious and most important point is that rapid growth of U.S. mortgage debt did not come out of thin air," comments Stephen Roach. "It was, of course, a direct outgrowth of the Fed's hyper-accommodation of the post-bubble era - namely, short-term interest rates that have been negative in real terms for longer than at any point since the 1970s." . The crime of which Mr. Greenspan is guilty is fraud. Putting interest rates at an artificially low level, the Fed chairman intentionally misled Americans. Were it not for the Fed's low rates and easy lending policies, Americans wouldn't have thought themselves so rich. Their houses wouldn't have gone up so much; they wouldn't have taken out so much equity, because they wouldn't have had any equity to take out. They would have had to spend less, which would have reduced the U.S. current account deficit and diminished household indebtnedness. "Lacking in job creation and real wage growth," explains Roach, "private sector real wage and salary disbursements have increased a mere 4% over the first 37 months of this recovery - fully ten percentage points short of the average gains of more than 14% that occurred over the five preceding cyclical upturns. Yet consumers didn't flinch in the face of what in the past would have been a major impediment to spending. Spurred on by home equity extraction and Bush Administration tax cuts, income-short households pushed the consumption share of US GDP up to a record 71.1% in early 2003 (and still 70.7% in 4Q04) - an unprecedented breakout from the 67% norm that had prevailed over the 1975 to 2000 period...At long last, Chairman Greenspan owns up to the central role he and his colleagues at the Federal Reserve have played in fostering these developments." Our own Fed chairman, guardian of the nation's money...custodian of its economy...night watchman of its wealth... How could he do such a thing? And yet he has done it. He turned a financial bubble into an economic bubble. Not only were the prices of financial assets ballooned to excess...so were the prices of houses...and so were the debts of the average household. Where does it lead? The force of a correction is equal to the deception that preceded it. Mr. Greenspan's whopper must be followed by a whopper of a slump. Regards, Bill Bonner The Daily Reckoning From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 12 11:28:18 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1CJRrPO024426; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 11:27:53 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1CJRYZl024137; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 11:27:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 11:27:34 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <001401c51138$e1e6d790$0100007f xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: off topic economics Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 13:26:46 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0010_01C51106.803BDD10" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-99.5 required=4.0 tests=HTML_20_30,HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57722 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C51106.803BDD10 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0011_01C51106.803D63B0" ------=_NextPart_001_0011_01C51106.803D63B0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankThanks Ed for posting the Bill Bonner writing on Greenspan. Don Rumsfield recently commented on the US Govt debt.. saying.. " = deficits don't matter".=20 He is correct.. they don't matter........ anymore! Anybody that don't = see the huge chasm in the middle of the road about June of this year is = blind and lying to himself. The hoard of cash and credit made available ( in lieu of hard work) has = spun the world in ever increasing speeds where no one dare try to change = because it could bring the house of cards down.. so the name of the game = is " keep the balloon up" The world banks thought they could win at monolopy by printing their own = money. (Rothschild said once ..he didnt care who ran the Government as = long as he ran the bank.) ( which ultimately dictates to the Government = as the Chinese are learning) What do the bankers win?? They win play money because thats whats its actually worth when the game = ends.. It used to be that the winner of the game of monolopy had to put = all the play money, the hotels, cards and dice back in the box before = bedtime. What to you bet they don't ! They will leave it to the losers to put the = game back in the box, complaining of what rotten losers we are. Brings to mind Geo. Washington's departing speech.. "beware of foriegn = entanglements". W is a "Yalie". Not even a Yalie can get himself = out of this mess and Yalies are known to be able to wiggle out of almost = anything. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0011_01C51106.803D63B0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Thanks Ed for posting the Bill Bonner writing = on=20 Greenspan.
 
Don Rumsfield recently commented on the US = Govt debt..=20 saying.. " deficits don't matter".
 
He is correct.. they don't matter........ = anymore! =20  Anybody that don't see the huge chasm in the middle of the road = about June=20 of this year is blind and lying to himself.
 
The hoard of cash and credit made available ( = in=20 lieu of hard work) has spun the world = in ever=20 increasing speeds where no one dare try to change because it could bring = the=20 house of cards down.. so the name of the game is " keep the balloon=20 up"
The world banks thought they could win at = monolopy=20 by printing their own money. (Rothschild said once ..he didnt care who = ran the=20 Government as long as he ran the bank.) ( which ultimately dictates = to the Government as the Chinese are learning)
What do the bankers win??
They win play money because thats whats its = actually=20 worth when the game ends.. It used to be that the winner of the game of = monolopy=20 had to put all the play money, the hotels, cards and dice back in the = box before=20 bedtime.
What to you bet they don't ! They will leave = it to the=20 losers to put the game back in the box, complaining of what rotten = losers we=20 are.
Brings to mind Geo. Washington's departing = speech..=20 "beware of foriegn entanglements".  W is a=20 "Yalie".       Not even a Yalie can get = himself=20 out of this mess and Yalies are known to be able to wiggle out of almost = anything.
 
Richard
 
------=_NextPart_001_0011_01C51106.803D63B0-- ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C51106.803BDD10 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000f01c51138$cac70ad0$0100007f xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C51106.803BDD10-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 12 12:59:44 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1CKxSPO001807; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 12:59:32 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1CKxQGW001783; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 12:59:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 12:59:26 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=hptStv+SGgSVQRtCs27FYwl7tptm/04VZt2fGTjZ1jc1Wsqed7cHYbBus8h3YDKgAjt8ky25iThQQehMfOkjfRPlKnF4jX1Y5fMY1tYMtbmmfPtmOvbczk8yElXpBpzfB3wPblWgNntjj2A6AA7xMADEzl1HoT+TX9jv2ABUedk= ; Message-ID: <20050212205919.19641.qmail web51704.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 12:59:19 -0800 (PST) From: Terry Blanton Subject: Re: OOPS, WRONG ADDR Thanks V & Bill B & Donations? To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <6StmAB.A.zb.t4mDCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57723 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --- William Beaty wrote: > AMASCI.COM TIP JAR > http://amasci.com/tipjar.html Now *that* is a kewl concept. I was able to pay throught my Amazon account. What's in it for Amazon? A fee? Terry __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 12 13:01:50 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1CL1VPO002810; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 13:01:32 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1CL1QKC002755; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 13:01:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 13:01:26 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=tG2ToSikiR3b0HumygcJc4FO0aIjGHhql1r+wVQj8uZaJUaSP9RUKm0AuBJ1+gZRQaRS4sd8gwWk4epQrHXsaBgD4mGHFNDZDej9yn0NbX5jqejSIyDpJOQvvNOhL53fCruDqgNPwkRzuk4YGdkXHHKfFeDfVpDIczrj5FFu5Xs= ; Message-ID: <20050212210115.34635.qmail web51705.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 13:01:15 -0800 (PST) From: Terry Blanton Subject: Re: OOPS, WRONG ADDR Thanks V & Bill B & Donations? To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20050211221041.00af7d68 mail.dlsi.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57724 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --- Steven Krivit wrote: > Bill, do you find the 3 bucks to be an ideal choice? I think we were giving $10 per year previously. I was a bit behind; so, I just highlighted the $3.00 and changed it to my desired amount. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do? http://my.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 12 14:53:34 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1CMrFPO016868; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 14:53:16 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1CMrDqG016816; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 14:53:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 14:53:13 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <008901c51154$d19d5000$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: Subject: More on liquid air engines Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 14:47:21 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0086_01C51111.C22BE520" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: <4Az0CC.A.oGE.YjoDCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57725 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0086_01C51111.C22BE520 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Imagine a super-efficient and ecologically sound 2-cycle engine... = yet... surprise, surprise... an internal combustion engine with no = intake manifold !=20 John Steck should get a "laugh" out of this. How can a real engine have = no intake manifold? Ans: It is powered by a "form" of liquid air. The cryo-liquid is = injected directly into the cylinder at TDC and expands upon irradiation. = Much of the engine can even be made of injection molded engineering = plastic, as it can operate at around 500 degrees F. Just for some factitious *Laughs,* let use nitrous oxide as our = "whipping boy" i.e. fuel. In reality, the fuel would not be nitrous = per se, but it would be a similar NOx mixture, which is more light = sensitive but might contain 60-80% N2O and would be used at a colder = temperature than where nitrous liquefies. IOW the fuel mix would be designed to rapidly decompose into oxygen and = nitrogen upon laser irradiation. Some small amount of CO2 is tolerable, = perhaps 5% of what a gasoline engine would emit. This fuel/oxidizer = compound liquid would have a much smaller energy content, compared to = gasoline, but could produce similar net torque in an actual engine = because of a very beneficial expansion ratio, lack of normal air intake = and parasitic compression losses, and exceptional Carnot efficiency. A = laser or even RF can be used as this engine's spark plug, depending on = the fuel composition. Nitrous oxide, N2O, is a colorless gas that was first discovered by a = clergyman and so must have been a gift from God Priestley made N2O = in his garage... err, stable... from simple ingredients like iron = powder; and so could millions of future laymen make our nitrous-like = fuel in the next decade in their garages at night, using off peak power. For the next 250 years or so the primary use of N2O has been dentistry = and recreational enjoyment. Many famous people (of their time) including = clergy, royalty and dignitaries worldwide used to inhale the = Priestlly-Davy nitrous oxide for recreational purposes, so it is not = particularly toxic. Ecologically, nitrous is about as close to real = "air" in composition as it gets in the molecular world. =20 It was once know as factitious air. An excellent choice ! especially for = a Madison Ave-type sobriquet, one can imagine. If we can keep the = additives low, perhaps we can keep the name! When the decomposition reaction of this liquid occurs in the combustion = chamber of an automobile, 3 moles of gas would be produced from 2 moles = of sprayed liquid, providing an extra boost to the piston over the = normal 800-1 ratio, as well as liberating heat, unlike other cryo-fuels = like LN or liquid air. The expansion ratio should be much more favorable = than normal. It also has a number of other benefits. The oxygen provides = efficient combustion of any tiny amount of hydrocarbon additive = (butane?), the nitrogen buffers the increased cylinder pressure = controlling the decomposition, and the latent heat of vaporization of = the N2O reduces the exhaust temperature. We could probably keep the = exhaust gases closer to regular air by taking carbon out when this fuel = is made. Of course N2O is occasionally injected into the fuel lines of racing = cars to give more power to the engine and to give the car exceptional = acceleration, so there is a long history of this.=20 Here the purpose is different, of course, and again the fuel would not = be nitrous, per se... we might want to add in a touch of LP or methane = to initiate the decomposition reaction, if necessary. Yes, that is some = of the dreaded-carbon, but one can imagine that, as an interim measure, = the net result would be a reduction in net carbon released per unit of = torque by a humongous ratio maybe 20-1... we can use this kind of = reduced carbon technology with hundreds of millions of Chinese needing = future powered transport. ...giving us a much longer "grace period" before runaway...=20 Say "adieu" to CO2, Gracie... OK George, Adieu to CO2 Factiously yours, Jones ------=_NextPart_000_0086_01C51111.C22BE520 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Imagine a super-efficient and ecologically sound 2-cycle engine... = yet...=20 surprise, surprise... an internal combustion engine with no = intake=20 manifold !
 
John Steck should get a "laugh" out of this. How can a real engine = have no=20 intake manifold?
 
Ans: It is powered by a "form" of liquid air. The cryo-liquid is = injected=20 directly into the cylinder at TDC and expands upon irradiation. Much of = the=20 engine can even be made of injection molded engineering plastic, as it = can=20 operate at around 500 degrees F.
 
Just for some factitious *Laughs,* let use nitrous oxide as = our=20 "whipping boy"  i.e. fuel.  In reality, the fuel would = not be=20 nitrous per se, but it would be a similar NOx mixture, which is more = light=20 sensitive but might contain 60-80% N2O and would be used at a colder = temperature=20 than where nitrous liquefies.
 
IOW the fuel mix would be designed to rapidly decompose into oxygen = and=20 nitrogen upon laser irradiation. Some small amount of CO2 is = tolerable,=20 perhaps 5% of what a gasoline engine would emit. This fuel/oxidizer = compound=20 liquid would have a much smaller energy content, compared to gasoline, = but could=20 produce similar net torque in an actual engine because of a very = beneficial=20 expansion ratio, lack of normal air intake and parasitic compression=20 losses, and exceptional Carnot efficiency. A laser or = even RF can=20 be used as this engine's spark plug, depending on the fuel = composition.
 
Nitrous oxide, N2O, is a colorless gas that was first discovered by = a=20 clergyman and so must have been a gift from God <G> Priestley made = N2O in=20 his garage... err, stable... from simple ingredients like iron powder; = and so=20 could millions of future laymen make our nitrous-like fuel in the next = decade in=20 their garages at night, using off peak power.
 
For the next 250 years or so the primary use of N2O has been = dentistry and=20 recreational enjoyment. Many famous people (of their time) including = clergy,=20 royalty and dignitaries worldwide used to inhale the Priestlly-Davy = nitrous=20 oxide for recreational purposes, so it is not particularly toxic. = Ecologically,=20 nitrous is about as close to real "air" in composition as it gets = in the=20 molecular world. 
 
It was once know as factitious air. An excellent choice ! = especially=20 for a Madison Ave-type sobriquet, one can imagine. If we can keep = the=20 additives low, perhaps we can keep the name!
 
When the decomposition reaction of this liquid occurs in = the=20 combustion chamber of an automobile, 3 moles of gas would be produced = from 2=20 moles of sprayed liquid, providing an extra boost to the piston over the = normal=20 800-1 ratio, as well as liberating heat, unlike other cryo-fuels like LN = or=20 liquid air. The expansion ratio should be much more favorable than = normal. It=20 also has a number of other benefits. The oxygen provides efficient = combustion of=20 any tiny amount of hydrocarbon additive (butane?), the nitrogen buffers = the=20 increased cylinder pressure controlling the decomposition, and the = latent heat=20 of vaporization of the N2O reduces the exhaust temperature. We could = probably=20 keep the exhaust gases closer to regular air by taking carbon out when = this fuel=20 is made.
 
Of course N2O is occasionally injected into the fuel lines of = racing cars=20 to give more power to the engine and to give the car exceptional = acceleration,=20 so there is a long history of this.
 
Here the purpose is different, of course, and again the fuel would = not be=20 nitrous, per se... we might want to add in a touch of LP or methane to = initiate=20 the decomposition reaction, if necessary. Yes, that is some of the=20 dreaded-carbon, but one can imagine that, as an interim measure, the net = result=20 would be a  reduction in net carbon released per unit of = torque by a=20 humongous ratio maybe 20-1... we can use this kind of reduced carbon = technology=20 with hundreds of millions of Chinese needing future powered = transport.
 
...giving us a much longer "grace period" before runaway...
 
Say "adieu" to CO2, Gracie... OK George, Adieu to CO2
 
Factiously yours,
 
Jones
------=_NextPart_000_0086_01C51111.C22BE520-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 12 15:14:33 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1CNEPPO027187; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 15:14:25 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1CNEK92027139; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 15:14:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 15:14:20 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=3hLcMu28v2oljYvMgQyxOgULbEwJxqtp3Km8jP0c5YX4jujItjbFipQbmhWERgle9qX/KrinAX2Wju9SyCkjyFx3u+7XNH8v0LFAiyj80owRgWkHUarhC2J9eWNRvJwW0b+38cTN4H+L3wn2rD2CXt5Yb6FSBmlCuDRQYUlOQtI= ; Message-ID: <20050212231409.50629.qmail web51710.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 15:14:08 -0800 (PST) From: Terry Blanton Subject: Mars in a Month - Reactive Sails To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57726 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: http://www.physics.uci.edu/faculty/Acceleration_of_Sails.pdf Excerpt from PDF file: The major points in this report are: (a) Beamed power can drive thermal desorption from LEO sails, giving high initial velocities, using coated sail surfaces. (b) This capability will open many kinds of fast-start interplanetary solar sailing missions (c) Sun Diver missions, which need to have sails tested to high temperatures, can be studied in LEO, observing their response to power beamed to (or from) LEO. (d) Laboratory sail flights can test acceleration & stability of carbon sails now. (e) This basic physics can apply to sails heated by lasers as well. There is a wide variety of promising possible materials for laboratory studies. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do? http://my.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 12 15:21:14 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1CNL3PO030524; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 15:21:03 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1CNKxFV030480; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 15:20:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 15:20:59 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050212231737.0069a034 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 23:17:37 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: OOPS, WRONG ADDR Thanks V & Bill B & Donations? Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57727 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 12:59 pm 12-02-05 -0800, you wrote: > >--- William Beaty wrote: > >> AMASCI.COM TIP JAR >> http://amasci.com/tipjar.html > >Now *that* is a kewl concept. I was able to pay >throught my Amazon account. What's in it for Amazon? >A fee? > >Terry That's especially convenient for me since I'm in England but I do have a US Amazon account. Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 12 15:22:30 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1CNMHPO031239; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 15:22:18 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1CNMFEQ031210; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 15:22:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 15:22:15 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=PzJEABC1IvDR5ZCNmEF1H8dyVyVFLNkpZH4DG2awkp2ksXa4npZlrB3EuNmX1aNDLn1BW041eIGqc1d1RPPEM7HnzuIZauMRB04ezC/65yibiN7MnBEXKZToxQF6VYXQx6FIwI52N+z1DaX61TL/4ne4O0jLmhf5pAhOQ1I3DAY= ; Message-ID: <20050212232156.16070.qmail web51703.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 15:21:55 -0800 (PST) From: Terry Blanton Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC N.Y. Times offers bad advice to HP To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <3rr4ua$hqf9us mxip06a.cluster1.charter.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57728 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- orionworks charter.net wrote: > I bet it uses a lot less energy than what an > equivalent sized CRT monitor would as well. 80 Watts according to the specs. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 12 16:04:03 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1D03ePO023506; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 16:03:40 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1D03Sf7023438; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 16:03:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 16:03:28 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002601c5115f$6d3e1e40$0600a8c0 nixlaptop> From: "Nick Palmer" To: References: <20050212205919.19641.qmail web51704.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: OOPS, WRONG ADDR Thanks V & Bill B & Donations? Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 00:00:40 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57730 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote << What's in it for Amazon? A fee?>> >From the small print... Does it cost me anything to use the Amazon Honor System? No. There are no fees for making a payment to a participating Web site. To cover our administrative and processing costs, Web sites collecting money with the Honor System are assessed 2.9% of your payment plus a fixed cost of $0.30 per transaction From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 12 16:16:39 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1D0GJPO028376; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 16:16:20 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1D0GENd028322; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 16:16:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 16:16:14 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Mars in a Month - Reactive Sails Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 11:15:54 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <20050212231409.50629.qmail web51710.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20050212231409.50629.qmail web51710.mail.yahoo.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j1D0G6PO028184 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57731 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Terry Blanton's message of Sat, 12 Feb 2005 15:14:08 -0800: Hi, [snip] >http://www.physics.uci.edu/faculty/Acceleration_of_Sails.pdf > >Excerpt from PDF file: > >The major points in this report are: > >(a) Beamed power can drive thermal desorption from LEO >sails, giving high initial velocities, using coated >sail surfaces. > >(b) This capability will open many kinds of fast-start >interplanetary solar sailing missions > >(c) Sun Diver missions, which need to have sails >tested to high temperatures, can be studied in LEO, >observing their response to power beamed to (or from) >LEO. [snip] The side of this not mentioned, is that it would require high powered beamed power sources, on the surface &/or in space. The space based variety would make an ideal weapon to suppress humanity. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 12 17:23:55 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1D1NcPO017433; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 17:23:40 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1D1NaOf017410; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 17:23:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 17:23:36 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: <1069e2c4-574e-4b18-bf2f-558e20e0135d> Message-ID: <004001c5116a$95be2800$3257ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <20050212231409.50629.qmail web51710.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Mars in a Month - Reactive Sails Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 19:58:41 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57732 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: About solar sail starcraft driven by laser cannon, does anyone remember "The Mote in God's Eye"? Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 12 18:11:08 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1D2AaPO001288; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 18:10:36 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1D2AZK8001272; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 18:10:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 18:10:35 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: More on liquid air engines X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: ID = 7b84137320e539ae3bcf255acd0b8dbd Reply-To: michael.foster excite.com From: "Michael Foster" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: michael.foster excite.com X-Mailer: PHP Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050213021019.273423DCF xprdmailfe6.nwk.excite.com> Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 21:10:19 -0500 (EST) Resent-Message-ID: <6upynB.A.vT.ZcrDCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57733 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I like it. In fact, I like almost anything better than that policy wonk's paradise, the "hydrogen economy." M. ============================================================= --- On Sat 02/12, Jones Beene < jonesb9 pacbell.net > wrote: From: Jones Beene [mailto: jonesb9 pacbell.net] To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 14:47:21 -0800 Subject: More on liquid air engines
Imagine a super-efficient and ecologically sound 2-cycle engine... yet... surprise, surprise... an internal combustion engine with no intake manifold !
John Steck should get a "laugh" out of this. How can a real engine have no intake manifold?
Ans: It is powered by a "form" of liquid air. The cryo-liquid is injected directly into the cylinder at TDC and expands upon irradiation. Much of the engine can even be made of injection molded engineering plastic, as it can operate at around 500 degrees F.
Just for some factitious *Laughs,* let use nitrous oxide as our "whipping boy" i.e. fuel. In reality, the fuel would not be nitrous per se, but it would be a similar NOx mixture, which is more light sensitive but might contain 60-80% N2O and would be used at a colder temperature than where nitrous liquefies.
IOW the fuel mix would be designed to rapidly decompose into oxygen and nitrogen upon laser irradiation. Some small amount of CO2 is tolerable, perhaps 5% of what a gasoline engine would emit. This fuel/oxidizer compound liquid would have a much smaller energy content, compared to gasoline, but could produce similar net torque in an actual engine because of a very beneficial expansion ratio, lack of normal air intake and parasitic compression losses, and exceptional Carnot efficiency. A laser or even RF can be used as this engine's spark plug, depending on the fuel composition.
Nitrous oxide, N2O, is a colorless gas that was first discovered by a clergyman and so must have been a gift from God Priestley made N2O in his garage... err, stable... from simple ingredients like iron powder; and so could millions of future laymen make our nitrous-like fuel in the next decade in their garages at night, using off peak power.
For the next 250 years or so the primary use of N2O has been dentistry and recreational enjoyment. Many famous people (of their time) including clergy, royalty and dignitaries worldwide used to inhale the Priestlly-Davy nitrous oxide for recreational purposes, so it is not particularly toxic. Ecologically, nitrous is about as close to real "air" in composition as it gets in the molecular world.
It was once know as factitious air. An excellent choice ! especially for a Madison Ave-type sobriquet, one can imagine. If we can keep the additives low, perhaps we can keep the name!
When the decomposition reaction of this liquid occurs in the combustion chamber of an automobile, 3 moles of gas would be produced from 2 moles of sprayed liquid, providing an extra boost to the piston over the normal 800-1 ratio, as well as liberating heat, unlike other cryo-fuels like LN or liquid air. The expansion ratio should be much more favorable than normal. It also has a number of other benefits. The oxygen provides efficient combustion of any tiny amount of hydrocarbon additive (butane?), the nitrogen buffers the increased cylinder pressure controlling the decomposition, and the latent heat of vaporization of the N2O reduces the exhaust temperature. We could probably keep the exhaust gases closer to regular air by taking carbon out when this fuel is made.
Of course N2O is occasionally injected into the fuel lines of racing cars to give more power to the engine and to give the car exceptional acceleration, so there is a long history of this.
Here the purpose is different, of course, and again the fuel would not be nitrous, per se... we might want to add in a touch of LP or methane to initiate the decomposition reaction, if necessary. Yes, that is some of the dreaded-carbon, but one can imagine that, as an interim measure, the net result would be a reduction in net carbon released per unit of torque by a humongous ratio maybe 20-1... we can use this kind of reduced carbon technology with hundreds of millions of Chinese needing future powered transport.
...giving us a much longer "grace period" before runaway...
Say "adieu" to CO2, Gracie... OK George, Adieu to CO2
Factiously yours,
Jones

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 12 18:11:59 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1D2BfPO001800; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 18:11:41 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1D2BbjC001766; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 18:11:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 18:11:37 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <3rr89m$me88nm mxip15a.cluster1.charter.net> X-Ironport-AV: i="3.88,197,1102309200"; d="scan'208"; a="753148662:sNHT12122780" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.12 (webedge20-101-197-20030912) From: To: Subject: Re: Re: Mars in a Month - Reactive Sails Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 2:11:27 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57734 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: "Mike Carrell" > > About solar sail starcraft driven by laser cannon, does > anyone remember "The Mote in God's Eye"? > > Mike Carrell > Hi Mike, Yes, I do. Larry Niven came up with a rather interesting reproductive cycle for those "Moties", didn't he. I'll never forget the comment about how it was discovered that Moties love a good cup of hot chocolate, especially with a drop of machine oil. And we think WE have problems with run away green house gasses. Talk about a desperate situation. Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 12 18:54:15 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1D2rjPO016577; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 18:53:46 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1D2rf0k016544; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 18:53:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 18:53:41 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: off topic economics X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: ID = 7b84137320e539ae3bcf255acd0b8dbd Reply-To: michael.foster excite.com From: "Michael Foster" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: michael.foster excite.com X-Mailer: PHP Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050213025331.086D23E07 xprdmailfe6.nwk.excite.com> Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 21:53:31 -0500 (EST) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57735 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I find it particularly disturbing whenever I read something like this: > Our own Fed chairman, guardian of the nation's money...custodian > of its economy...night watchman of its wealth... > How could he do such a thing? And yet he has done it. He turned a > financial bubble into an economic bubble. Not only were the prices > of financial assets ballooned to excess...so were the prices of > houses...and so were the debts of the average household. > Where does it lead? The force of a correction is equal to the > deception that preceded it. Mr. Greenspan's whopper must be > followed by a whopper of a slump. This shows almost total ignorance of the nature of the Federal Reserve and its purpose. The Federal Reserve, while it has a government charter, is a private company. Its purpose, and that of its chairman is to stabilize banks and to maximize their profits. Usually, when I inform people of this, they think I must be some sort of conspiracy nut. One only needs to read the Federal Reserve Act of 1913. It's not very long and should be required reading for every child in school. Mr. Greenspan is not the "custodian of (the nation's) economy". He is merely the public face of the Federal Reserve. The Fed makes decisions attempting to make the most money for banks, especially members of the Fed. When that corresponds with a healthy economy, as it generally does, then the Fed is doing us all a favor. Aren't we lucky? The public assumes great knowledge and omniscience must reside in institutions such as the Fed. The simple fact is that it's made up of human beings who can guess wrong and make really stupid mistakes, just like the rest of us. Tightening the money supply just as the Great Depression was descending upon us is an example of such foolishness and wrong- headedness. M. _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 13 08:44:39 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1DGiBPO023027; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 08:44:12 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1DGi5MG022969; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 08:44:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 08:44:05 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <005001c511ea$6543f8a0$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: Cc: "vortex" References: <410-220052013135949250 earthlink.net> Subject: Re: Igniting N2O Without A Laser Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 08:38:06 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57736 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frederick Sparber" Yes. That Microwave lawnmower thing brings up some memories... Did Bill B finally determine that there was nothing to it at all? Indeed, microwaves would be the preferred method of decomposition of NOx, and is why I added "RF" to the previous speculation, but I can find no reference to this actually working in practice, whereas many NOx fuel/energy carriers are definitely subject to rapid photo-decomposition. Anyway, the whole thing which is radically different here is in combining what is technically a *split Carnot* situation into a *boosted Carnot* situation. With a cryo-liquid fuel, as occurs in the *split Carnot* situation such as with LN, where the compression losses take place under controlled and minimized conditions when the fuel is manufactured, not when it is used... therefore the expansion half-cycle itself is extremely efficient (at least double). But we are suggesting going a step beyond. ... instead of that split-situation, we now have a boosted split cycle situation where the fuel itself contains some chemical energy, and this can push the "effective" Carnot efficiency as seen at the final stage near 100% - the "effective" part being that we are referring only that part of the cycle which is witnessed in the vehicle itself, and not the total system. IOW most of the energy content of the fuel itself can be used, as compared to 20-25% with gasoline - because this _usage-half-cycle_ is balanced out by the manufacturing process half-cycle, where losses are elsewhere and are provided by off-peak nuclear or wind energy. The "manufacture" part of the *split Carnot* situation is ALL loss; so the net efficiency of this situations not that unusual - at most 40% efficiency - but from the perspective of the driver, in being able to use a much smaller and **uncooled** engine, especially in a hybrid, which provides its own air conditioning as well, the advantages are multiplied ever further. If you have improved batteries and a small uncooled 2-cycle engine (weighing 50 pounds even with the generator) to keep the batteries trickle charged, then this can be a very lightweight long range vehicle... EXCEPT...it would require a fair amount of cryo-liquid in an insulated tank. (and does not make much sense for Alaska where you need the excess heat, nor where non-CO2 night-time energy is not available). Again, it would make zero sense unless the electricity used to manufacture the nitrous-based cryo-mix is off-peak energy - coming from nuclear/wind and preformed when it would otherwise be wasted (which is what off-peak refers to). However, another thought. The engine at this stage, probably benefits greatly from a small boost of adding a liquid carbon fuel into the mix (butane, or methane). This can be done at little risk of explosion as there is no volatility problem at minus 50-150 or so. But... I am wondering about eliminating all carbon. H2 cannot be added as it liquefies at too low a temp, and would be an explosion risk. Are there non-carbon alternatives? How stable would ammonia or a like-compound be... or should I ask, is there any ammonia-based liquids which are stable in liquid nitrous oxide at say minus 50 degrees, and not a great risk in the event of an accident? We probably need to have single liquid fuel/oxidizer mix instead of two separate tanks, for a variety of reasons. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 13 08:58:17 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1DGvtPO028247; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 08:57:55 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1DGvnnO028197; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 08:57:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 08:57:49 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=HNiWWF/r5ysjp4yskdUbyXSoi2Drpj4tgYwXuYXKJoYBgcL2dnflipj3vPjwGX7jBLgH25xXhmQXv+xMjBwYtUy0wFml4LiZRRNpfdFc20kP4pqFC0VC9squGc0IYgMPiqnfGweRJ07W3AIz3LA7vb8op18oL7o2+HUqzSom+ws= ; Message-ID: <20050213165732.32271.qmail web51710.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 08:57:32 -0800 (PST) From: Terry Blanton Subject: No Fare Pubic Transportation To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57737 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This one's for Sparber: http://www.weeklyworldnews.com/features/technology/26843 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 13 09:42:41 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1DHgXPO011267; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 09:42:33 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1DHgUJT011249; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 09:42:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 09:42:30 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20050213094533.0356d4d0 mail.dlsi.net> X-Sender: steven%newenergytimes.com mail.dlsi.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 09:45:45 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: No Fare Pubic Transportation In-Reply-To: <20050213165732.32271.qmail web51710.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57738 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: What a gas! At 08:57 AM 2/13/2005 -0800, you wrote: >This one's for Sparber: > >http://www.weeklyworldnews.com/features/technology/26843 > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 13 09:54:32 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1DHsIPO015929; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 09:54:18 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1DHsED9015898; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 09:54:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 09:54:14 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <006001c511f4$3692a600$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <410-220052013135949250 earthlink.net> <005001c511ea$6543f8a0$d0bcfea9@jonesb9pacbell> Subject: Re: Igniting N2O Without A Laser Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 09:48:22 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57739 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: An added thought...and another reason why this idea of home-brew transport fuel from air or water needs to be pursued. > Again, it would make zero sense unless the electricity used > to manufacture the nitrous-based cryo-mix is off-peak > energy - coming from nuclear/wind when it > would otherwise be wasted One reason (of the many) that nuclear energy never really made it big-time here in the USA (as opposed to France, for instance) is the antiquated insistence from short-sighted CEOs of short-sighted power companies, who only considered nuclear for "base-line" operation. In France they were not burdened by near-term profit considerations (and had no gas anyway), and now in 2005 as they are almost all nuke, safe-nuke, it should be mentioned, the French are reaping the huge benefits of that foresight with plenty of discretionary income in the hands of Jean Q. Publique... and adequate tax revenues to boot. Nuclear plants need to be operated at full throttle 24/7, and actually cost less to run that way than to try to accommodate variable diurnal supply/demand. Consequently, US producers (the "Cons" i.e. Con-Ed, etc) looked at their night-time demand and covered that with nuclear but decided that everything else would have to be fossil based, because in the sort-term - this was the best use of capital when the prime interest rates were way up there. It does make short-term economic sense (if you knew that fossil fuel prices were stable over decades). In the 70s-80s it looked like natural gas prices would only go down, not up, as many new suppliers were coming on tap -so why would you use nuclear for anything but base-line? Now that we can see that the Cons of our great Petrocracy have once again screwed John Q. Public out of his hard earned discretionary income, as gas prices have tripled over what the CEOs thought they should be in 2005 - and we reluctantly realize that we must start planning on adding new nuclear (not the old kind but totally redesigned)... then it should be realized that the task will have to go far beyond baseline considerations ... and that there could end up being huge off-peak capacity. ERGO. Why not encourage John Q. Public (and/or Jane) to make his/her own ecologically sound transportation fuel with this off-peak capacity at home? Riiiight...and screw the Petrocracy out of tax dollars and greed dollars? Well, it's all about exercising political will-power, isn't it? If redesigned and vastly increased nuclear capacity should come on line before the runaway greenhouse effect sets in, (and we CAN make that happen, if the political will power is found at the grass-roots) then there is an added benefit to all of this. (it took me 8 paragraphs to get this far), but the main point is >>>>> if you are compressing air to make a liquid transport fuel in a small garage-plant then you are going to have a lot of "waste heat" from this, but it is not really wasted as it can provide 1) all of your hot water needs 2) all of your nighttime heating needs 3) some of your daytime air-conditioning needs IOW by allowing John Q. Public to help wean us from CO2 we have found hidden efficiency in many ways.... and perhaps avoid a runaway greenhouse scenario... *Just say adieu to CO2...* Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 13 15:43:46 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1DNgwPO026729; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 15:42:58 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1DNgfsZ026587; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 15:42:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 15:42:41 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <001001c51225$a8c96cf0$0100007f xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: igniting N2O without a laser Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 17:41:42 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000C_01C511F3.47ACA8B0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-99.5 required=4.0 tests=HTML_20_30,HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: <7VrW3.A.IfG.uX-DCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57740 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C511F3.47ACA8B0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000D_01C511F3.47AE2F50" ------=_NextPart_001_000D_01C511F3.47AE2F50 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankJones can make a person stop and think. The South Texas Nuke plant in Bay City, just south of our ranch, = reported a reactor shutdown as a precaution when they discovered a tiny = leak in the high pressure water lines causing a tiny amount of = radioactive steam to escape. This is the plant begun by Brown and Root = (now KBR by way of Iraq) and finished by Bechtol with a price tag of $ 1 = bil estimate at start and a $ 5 bil finish.. excepting that by the time = Reliant and the State finished calculating the " stranded cost" it = jumped to,give/take ,$8 to 14 bil using Texas math. The guys that actually operate the plant are among the best in the = business. NOT TRUE of the people that run the Company which is a " sorta" = project-partnership between the old Houston Lighting and Power (HL&P) = (now who knows since) the company is split between Reliant, energy and = resources, Centerpoint et. al., The City of Austin and the old Central = Power and Light ( now lights out inc.) Jones hit it on the nail about the CEO'S. They are NOT in business to = RUN a Company, they ARE in business for ONE purpose.. to become = personally rich.. HOW has nothing to do with it. The same is become true = of most CEO'S. Carly and Capellas got $ 25mil each for putting Compaq = and HP together and she got another $ 25 mil to walk. Disney could put = it to music and have a hit comedy. Warren Buffitt makes a bundle playing = them off against one another. This is not management or leadership. I wouldn't want these CEO'S = anywhere near a nuclear plant. CF, bring it on! Richard ------=_NextPart_001_000D_01C511F3.47AE2F50 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank

Jones can make a person stop and = think.
 
The South Texas Nuke plant in Bay City, just = south of=20 our ranch, reported a reactor shutdown as a precaution when they=20 discovered a tiny leak in the high pressure water lines causing a = tiny=20 amount of radioactive steam to escape. This is the plant begun by Brown = and Root=20 (now KBR by way of Iraq) and finished by Bechtol with a price = tag of $=20 1 bil estimate at start and a $ 5 bil finish.. excepting that by the = time=20 Reliant and the State finished calculating the " stranded cost" it = jumped=20 to,give/take ,$8 to 14 bil using Texas math.
 
The guys that actually operate the plant are = among the=20 best in the business.
 NOT TRUE of the people that run the = Company which=20 is a " sorta" project-partnership between the old Houston Lighting and = Power=20 (HL&P) (now who knows since) the company is split between Reliant, = energy=20 and resources, Centerpoint  et. al., The City of Austin and the old = Central=20 Power and Light ( now lights out inc.)
 
Jones hit it on the nail about the CEO'S. They = are NOT=20 in business to RUN a Company, they ARE in business for ONE = purpose.. to=20 become personally rich.. HOW has nothing to do with it. The same is = become true=20 of most CEO'S. Carly and Capellas got $ 25mil each for putting Compaq = and HP=20 together and she got another $ 25 mil to walk. Disney could put it to = music and=20 have a hit comedy. Warren Buffitt makes a bundle playing them off = against one=20 another.
 
This is not management or leadership. I = wouldn't want=20 these CEO'S anywhere near a nuclear plant. CF, bring it on!
 
Richard
 
 
 
 
------=_NextPart_001_000D_01C511F3.47AE2F50-- ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C511F3.47ACA8B0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000b01c51225$9237d670$0100007f xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C511F3.47ACA8B0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 13 16:31:29 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1E0V7XJ031711; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 16:31:07 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1E0V21Y031662; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 16:31:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 16:31:02 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <012d01c5122b$a1aeac40$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <001001c51225$a8c96cf0$0100007f xptower> Subject: Re: igniting N2O without a laser Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 16:25:04 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57741 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Richard, > Carly and Capellas got $25mil each for putting Compaq and HP together and she got another $25 mil to walk. Disney could put it to music and have a hit comedy. Warren Buffet makes a bundle playing them off against one another. This is not management or leadership. I wouldn't want these CEO'S anywhere near a nuclear plant. CF, bring it on! Indeed... and in the words of another, more profane but far more respectable Buffet (Disney wouldn't stoop this low) , Legal problems gettin' thick and hazy Look at the people gettin' rich and crazy Locked up in mansions on the top of the hill Someone needs to tell them 'bout _overkill_ _Overkill_ , _overkill_ Such a megalo-modern problematic ill Climb too fast and shove too hard You'll be pushin' up the daisies in the old boneyard I got no corporate gig I got no guru I don't own ocean front in Honolulu You write the big checks But I pay your bills Now someone's got to tell you 'bout _overkill_ Yup, "super-size-it"... its the American way, no? Jones And... as it IS "5 O'clock somewhere", I'll think its 'bout time to follow somora of Jimmy's fine advice.... BTW, in the category of "truth is stranger than fiction" JB doesn't own "ocean front in Honolulu" nor even in Carib, but he does own a nice spread in the very staid Hamptons, and I know its true... even saw him fly in by seaplane a few years back... OTOH he probably had the traditional island inebriants in excess ....Jimmy in the Hamptons sounds as weird and wonderful as Warren in an Alpharetta trailer park... donit? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 12 15:32:58 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1CNWkPO004375; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 15:32:47 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1CNWhoG004357; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 15:32:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 15:32:43 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <054a01c5115b$6c55b6e0$4b01a8c0 colin5fc9e2583> Reply-To: "Colin Quinney" From: "Colin Quinney" To: References: <2.2.32.20050212231737.0069a034 pop.freeserve.net> Subject: Re: OOPS, WRONG ADDR Thanks V & Bill B & Donations? Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 18:34:40 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2527 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2527 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57729 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com X-Suspected-Spam: billb friends5 Status: RO X-Status: And it's good for me because I live in Canada and I have a Paypal account :-) Colin ----- Original Message ----- From: "Grimer" To: Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2005 6:17 PM Subject: Re: OOPS, WRONG ADDR Thanks V & Bill B & Donations? > At 12:59 pm 12-02-05 -0800, you wrote: >> >>--- William Beaty wrote: >> >>> AMASCI.COM TIP JAR >>> http://amasci.com/tipjar.html >> >>Now *that* is a kewl concept. I was able to pay >>throught my Amazon account. What's in it for Amazon? >>A fee? >> >>Terry > > > That's especially convenient for me since I'm > in England but I do have a US Amazon account. > > Frank Grimer > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 13 20:58:44 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1E4wZIO026289; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 20:58:35 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1E4wS8U026247; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 20:58:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 20:58:28 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050210160431.02ab24c8 pop.mindspring.com> References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050210160431.02ab24c8 pop.mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 22:59:27 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: How to appear in the blogoshere? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57742 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed posted; About getting into the blogisphere. I gave your URL to Hugh Hewitt, who has a national radio talk show. Hugh blogs on his website hughhewitt.com . He is also the author of Blog. I've only read a few pages because Hugh was in town over the weekend. He talks about how the blogisphere has kept several news stories in the media long enough for something to be done about them. The latest scalp on Hugh's belt is that of Eastland Jordan, former president of CNN, who resigned Friday. Hugh picked up the story from the blogisphere and started talking about it on his program about a week ago, he also mentioned it in a televised interview. Jordan had slimed the American military as "having targeted journalists for extermination." which infuriated Hugh. Having your own nationally syndicated radio program, and a best selling book are handy for getting on the media. I'm hoping that Hugh addresses the subject of getting traffic to your blog, I'll keep you posted. While you may think that the blogisphere is right wing, according to Hugh, there are a lot of leftwing blogs too. It would seem to me that radionuclide remediation would be a hot button issue for those folks. I would think that you or Leaking Pen would be good people to contact them. BTW, I'm prodofgod.blogspot.com . I'm also going to be publishing science related articles in the Minnesota Sentinel, mnsentinel.org . I wrote an article on how the government has spent $150 billion attempting to produce a Sun in a can, and attempted to strangle LENR in it's cradle. I sent it to Ed for review, I'll post the link when it is published. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 14 05:24:20 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1EDO4J3010682; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 05:24:05 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1EDNxOp010625; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 05:23:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 05:23:59 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=brxd74WmdFwnZUJ5qTmR4/hMU3ZIRqa5tn2gUHusJCEeamEO1GSPGwBwuTGdRl6c; Message-ID: <410-220052114122329160 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: 35% H2O2-Water Engine Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 06:23:29 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9405ee208d23c7eb4e0696f0087af871f69350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.68 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57743 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII While Jones is polluting the atmosphere with N2O, and being sought by the MIBs for possessing Ammonium Nitrate. :-) http://www.h2o2.com/intro/overview.html Decomposition of a 35% solution Hydrogen Peroxide-Water in an engine internally plated with Manganese Dioxide will as a decomposition catalyst will yield 1054 joules per gram or 454 Btus per pound. Thus at 20% thermal efficiency 27 pounds of the mix will deliver one horsepower-hour of shaft work. But, if you don't make your own using solar or wind in the electrolytic process, it will cost you up to $80.00 per gallon (delivered) for the 35% solution.. http://www.h2o2.com/intro/faq.html "How much does H2O2 cost? It depends on the specifics of the requirement (e.g., H2O2 strength and grade, volume per year, packaging and delivery volumes, and location/proximity to production plant or terminal, etc.). Within the continental U.S., the list price for 50% Technical Grade (standard industrial grade), delivered in full tank trucks (40,000 lbs), and freight equalized from the nearest production plant, is as follows. Product: $0.345 per lb-50% (FOB Houston, TX) Freight: $3.50 per mile (regardless of delivery volume) Taxes, tariffs and duties: ? " OTOH. if you have "free electricity" from solar, hydro, or wind. These patents (and others) teach: 6,767,447 6,767,447 6,159,349 I like LN2 better. :-) Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

While Jones is polluting the atmosphere with N2O, and being sought
by the MIBs for possessing Ammonium Nitrate.  :-)
 
 
Decomposition of a 35% solution Hydrogen Peroxide-Water in
an engine internally plated with Manganese Dioxide will as a decomposition
catalyst will yield 1054 joules per gram or 454 Btus per pound.
 
Thus at 20% thermal efficiency  27 pounds of the mix will deliver
one horsepower-hour of shaft work.
But, if you don't make your own using solar or wind in the electrolytic
process, it will cost you up to $80.00 per gallon (delivered) for the 35% solution..
 
 
"How much does H2O2 cost? It depends on the specifics of the requirement (e.g., H2O2 strength and grade, volume per year, packaging and delivery volumes, and location/proximity to production plant or terminal, etc.). Within the continental U.S., the list price for 50% Technical Grade (standard industrial grade), delivered in full tank trucks (40,000 lbs), and freight equalized from the nearest production plant, is as follows. Product: $0.345 per lb-50% (FOB Houston, TX)
Freight: $3.50 per mile (regardless of delivery volume)
Taxes, tariffs and duties: ? "
 
OTOH. if you have "free electricity" from solar, hydro, or wind.
 
These patents (and others) teach:

6,767,447

6,767,447

6,159,349

I like LN2  better.   :-)

Frederick

 

 
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 14 07:23:09 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1EFMwJ3026347; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 07:22:58 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1EFMu5L026334; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 07:22:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 07:22:56 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Mark S Bilk To: "Vortex List" Subject: Engine Powered By Ordinary Water Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 07:04:06 -0800 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.28] Content-Type: text/plain MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <0502140722441C.00313 isis> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57744 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Here's a Usenet article from 1995 describing a steam engine that employs a magnetron to vaporize the water, with over-unity performance. I think Randell Mills reported a 3:1 power gain in a microwave plasma of pure water. Some state of oxygen serves as a hydrino catalyst. The one detail in the article below that causes me to doubt it is the sentence "The magnetron fits into the spark plug hole." I think oven magnetrons have a flat-surface fitting with an opening where the microwaves emerge. This would not fit into the sparkplug hole of a lawnmower engine, which is probably pretty small. Also, the magnetron has vacuum inside, so the microwaves must pass through a nonconductive glass, ceramic, or plastic window that already has 15 psi across it. The pressure of the expanding steam would add to that and tend to shatter the window. An additional stronger window in an adapter fitting would be required. If the original author really built such an engine, why doesn't he mention this? From: Pat_Pelletier mindlink.bc.ca (Pat Pelletier) Subject: PUBLIC DISCLOSURE -NEW INVENTION Date: 1995/08/28 Message-ID: <76963-809632591 mindlink.bc.ca>#1/1 distribution: world organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada newsgroups: sci.materials I am posting the following for a friend who does NOT have access to the Internet. Comments welcomed. NOTICE The purpose of this notice is to place into public domain something which I invented so that it may not be patented and in order to prevent it's use from being restricted in any way. The device is an engine in which small quantities of water are turned into steam by the use of a magnetron (as found in microwave ovens). Interested parties may wish to try this test: Place a few drops of water into a clear plastic 35mm film roll holder and put the cap on the film roll holder. Place in a microwave oven and turn the oven on. The 'pop' is the result of the water turning suddenly into steam. The engine I have invented is far more efficient than any other steam engine because of the efficiency of the magnetron in turning water into steam. In fact, the water droplet 'explodes' very much like air/gasoline explodes in a conventional internal combustion engine. This engine was first tested in 1992. I am however unable to invest the required capital to produce a more sophisticated model and therefore unable to patent it. Even though I may not be able to profit from this technology it is too good to be kept to myself and I would like to spread it around so that others may be able to use it. The following is an outline of how to construct the device and a few hints and cautions: PARTS NEEDED: 1. Magnetron from a medium power microwave oven, 2. Small 4 stroke single cylinder lawn mower engine or similar engine with 'old style' points, and ignition system. 3. Automotive alternator with built-in rectifier and regulator, also a 12 volt auto battery. 4. 'Trigger' mechanism from an aircraft 'strove' landing light. INSTRUCTIONS: 1. The magnetron fits into the spark plug hole. 2. The distributor points are modified so that the contact is closed when the piston is at the top dead center and this contact is used to activate the aircraft strobe mechanism. 3. The high voltage from the strobe is connected to directly fire the magnetron which in turn produces steam which moves the piston. 4. The engine turns the alternator which keeps the battery charged which supplies electrical power for the magnetron. CAUTION AND TIPS: WARNING!!!! DANGER!!!! 1. Be careful around the magnetron. KEEP IT SHIELDED WITH METAL. IT CAN CAUSE SEVERE AND KEEP BURNS THAT MAY NOT BE READILY VISIBLE WHEN THEY FIRST OCCUR. 2. The 'strobe' trigger delivers a very high voltage which can jump to ground. WEAR RUBBER SOLED SHOES AND INSULATE WELL. 3. Be sure to modify the distributor points so they close at top dead center. Timing advance depends on the power of the magnetron used and the amount of water. Try different carb jet sizes - drill out if needed. 4. Due to variables, don't expect high engine speeds without a little experimentation due to variables. 5. Start with a fully charged battery or your alternator won't work. 6. The energy produced is in excess of the power required to run the alternator but until you get the RPM up, and they parts working in harmony, it may be best to use a battery charger instead of an alternator. 7. An easy way to measure net power output after you have the alternator on line is to run a few 12 volt lights from the battery. You will see that the battery stays charged even with the lights on and the motor keeps on going. 8. Although I have not tried it, the idea of vaporizing water with microwaves should also work well in a converted turbine. SPREAD THIS TECHNOLOGY - IT IS FREE!! PRINT THIS BEFORE IT IS DELETED FROM THE NET! MY CODE FOR FUTURE IDENTIFICATION IS PANGURBAN *************************************************************** From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 14 08:40:34 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1EGeJJ3007784; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 08:40:20 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1EGeGnP007754; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 08:40:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 08:40:16 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050214113657.02b463c8 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 11:40:10 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: How to appear in the blogoshere? In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050210160431.02ab24c8 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_8836656==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57745 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_8836656==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed thomas malloy wrote: > Jed posted; > >About getting into the blogisphere. > >I gave your URL to Hugh Hewitt, who has a national radio talk show. Hugh >blogs on his website hughhewitt.com. Thanks! >While you may think that the blogisphere is right wing, according to Hugh, >there are a lot of leftwing blogs too. I wouldn't know if it is primarily left or right. I have not explored it. I gather there are millions of blogs so I suppose it would be impossible to categorize them. Anyway, left or right is fine with me, as long as it brings in serious readers and spreads the word. - Jed --=====================_8836656==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" thomas malloy wrote:

 Jed posted;

About getting into the blogisphere.

I gave your URL to Hugh Hewitt, who has a national radio talk show. Hugh blogs on his website hughhewitt.com.

Thanks!


While you may think that the blogisphere is right wing, according to Hugh, there are a lot of leftwing blogs too.

I wouldn't know if it is primarily left or right. I have not explored it. I gather there are millions of blogs so I suppose it would be impossible to categorize them. Anyway, left or right is fine with me, as long as it brings in serious readers and spreads the word.

- Jed
--=====================_8836656==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 14 12:37:27 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1EKb7vc021569; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 12:37:12 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1EKb0kP021501; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 12:37:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 12:37:00 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 14:38:03 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: 35% H2O2-Water Engine Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57746 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Who ever started this thread is to be criticized for a misleading subject line, water is water and H202 is H2O2. > >Decomposition of a 35% solution Hydrogen Peroxide-Water in >an engine internally plated with Manganese Dioxide will as a decomposition This reminds me of a story that Harold Aspden told. Following WW II, a German engineer showed him a design for a submarine power plant that he claimed was O U. This man's claimed were supported by other scientists. Later I saw a show on PBS on submarines. There was a picture of the last generation of U Boats, very cool streamlined design. They mentioned that it was powered by H2O2. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 14 13:37:28 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1ELbGvc022633; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 13:37:16 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1ELbEA4022612; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 13:37:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 13:37:14 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 15:38:12 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Bottomless well Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: <602Fu.A.PhF.JoRECB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57747 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Michael Medved, michaelmedved.com interviewed Peter Huber author of The Bottomless Well. Huber poopooed Hupert's Peak thesis. According to him, there are enough petroleum resources in this hemisphere to last the entire world for a century. Then there is our coal reserves. He ignored my question about the collapse of the dollar. Further information on the book is on Medved's website. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 14 13:45:07 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1ELigvc026655; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 13:44:44 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1ELiex8026618; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 13:44:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 13:44:40 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20050214134738.0357c478 mail.dlsi.net> X-Sender: steven%newenergytimes.com mail.dlsi.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 13:47:50 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: Bottomless well In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57748 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: what facts did he cite? At 03:38 PM 2/14/2005 -0600, you wrote: >Michael Medved, michaelmedved.com interviewed Peter Huber author of The >Bottomless Well. Huber poopooed Hupert's Peak thesis. According to him, >there are enough petroleum resources in this hemisphere to last the entire >world for a century. Then there is our coal reserves. He ignored my >question about the collapse of the dollar. Further information on the book >is on Medved's website. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 14 14:07:34 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1EM77vc004826; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 14:07:08 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1EM6fFx004552; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 14:06:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 14:06:41 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050214164844.029f9b30 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 17:05:12 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Bottomless well In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_28341812==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57750 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_28341812==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed thomas malloy wrote: >Michael Medved, michaelmedved.com interviewed Peter Huber author of The >Bottomless Well. Huber poopooed Hupert's Peak thesis. According to him, >there are enough petroleum resources in this hemisphere to last the entire >world for a century. What hemisphere, exactly? If that include South America (Venezuela) it is probably true. There is also a lot of oil in Canada and Alaska. Of course it would cost a fortune to extract it. If he means oil at $500 per barrel, I am sure there is enough to last a century. At $2,000 per barrel it will last forever, because no one can afford to burn it. These prices do not include the cost of war for oil, ill-health and early deaths from pollution, accidents in which gasoline powered vehicles explode, and other add-on costs. If you include this sort of thing, oil already costs roughly ~$200 per barrel, I think. If you include the cost of worst-case global warming I suppose each barrel will eventually cost us something like ~1,000 lives or maybe $20 million. From that point of view, the total remaining supply is the least of our problems. In a sense, it would be a blessing if we ran out quickly and we were forced to invent replacement sources. Unfortunately, people are likely to use coal instead, which is even worse by every measure. If Huber is saying there is plenty of oil lying around at today's costs in the US, Canada and Mexico, he should tell you oil companies about it. They are paying a fortune to get oil from the North Sea, Russia, the Middle East and other places. They would be delighted to find it closer to the U.S., which is the world's largest market. I doubt he knows more than the oil company experts do. - Jed --=====================_28341812==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" thomas malloy wrote:

Michael Medved, michaelmedved.com interviewed Peter Huber author of The Bottomless Well. Huber poopooed Hupert's Peak thesis. According to him, there are enough petroleum resources in this hemisphere to last the entire world for a century.

What hemisphere, exactly? If that include South America (Venezuela) it is probably true. There is also a lot of oil in Canada and Alaska. Of course it would cost a fortune to extract it. If he means oil at $500 per barrel, I am sure there is enough to last a century. At $2,000 per barrel it will last forever, because no one can afford to burn it.

These prices do not include the cost of war for oil, ill-health and early deaths from pollution, accidents in which gasoline powered vehicles explode, and other add-on costs. If you include this sort of thing, oil already costs roughly ~$200 per barrel, I think. If you include the cost of worst-case global warming I suppose each barrel will eventually cost us something like ~1,000 lives or maybe $20 million. From that point of view, the total remaining supply is the least of our problems. In a sense, it would be a blessing if we ran out quickly and we were forced to invent replacement sources. Unfortunately, people are likely to use coal instead, which is even worse by every measure.

If Huber is saying there is plenty of oil lying around at today's costs in the US, Canada and Mexico, he should tell you oil companies about it. They are paying a fortune to get oil from the North Sea, Russia, the Middle East and other places. They would be delighted to find it closer to the U.S., which is the world's largest market. I doubt he knows more than the oil company experts do.

- Jed
--=====================_28341812==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 14 15:32:59 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1ENWoSV016169; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 15:32:50 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1ENWcJc016118; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 15:32:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 15:32:38 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=nT1bkcVEMY/QB+W3BrGX/SONoP9mSYiM5d/fbH0DOEF8kMOWaO/bTAFeEis95Cz/t/BZUOYXV5KQpVNDxtj9IeqPaBpAs0pB4MuKgV2ACjgi19kdN8xOcq5XjKOiDhxOO7XyAzaGHdUzgM01fi8SrrUFUPJmeETNCblh5vskbPc= ; Message-ID: <20050214233231.28512.qmail web51710.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 15:32:31 -0800 (PST) From: Terry Blanton Subject: Iapetus and Sir Clarke To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57751 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ya gotta love Richard Hoagland with new claims about Iapetus: http://www.enterprisemission.com/moon1.htm But, what *is* that linear ridge ringing the moon? (Great image 70% down the page.) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 14 18:06:01 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1F25pbq012267; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 18:05:51 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1F25c1s012152; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 18:05:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 18:05:38 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=GaLF7PTuGbvlq/ysdmmtiHs/1uR5nmTOivh+iXN1PP9cCYBcBRTGD/JRD6MNei+p3dpC08Vy9r8z0LB648gnapu1tXK3ngKeQqkozEYQtRujE55ImPWuZlBHiFTvrUX9zk/Xb1YcfhJ09DXYCVY06yISjoO1yhPri+QkrSLxsFM= ; Message-ID: <20050215020529.36596.qmail web51702.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 18:05:29 -0800 (PST) From: Terry Blanton Subject: "Mission Earth" . . . To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57752 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: . . . was the title of a decology by LRH (released posthumusly, I think). Has anyone read *any* of these books allegedly authored by the founder of Scientology? They are quite timely, explaining why new energy technologies have not, er, taken off. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 14 19:56:01 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1F3tkbq019148; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 19:55:47 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1F3tivq019103; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 19:55:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 19:55:44 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: "Mission Earth" . . . Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 22:56:23 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <20050215020529.36596.qmail web51702.mail.yahoo.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57753 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hey Terry, Nope, not a one. But LRH himself makes for a remarkable biographical subject. Just don't bother with the "offical" stuff, it's all phony and boring to boot. The real story is fascinating and well worth the few hours of reading. Here's the link http://www.clambake.org/archive/books/bfm/bfmconte.htm The chapter headings are a little pulpy, but the author has done his homework. A remarkable story, huh? K. -----Original Message----- From: Terry Blanton [mailto:terry1094 yahoo.com] Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 9:05 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: "Mission Earth" . . . . . . was the title of a decology by LRH (released posthumusly, I think). Has anyone read *any* of these books allegedly authored by the founder of Scientology? They are quite timely, explaining why new energy technologies have not, er, taken off. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 15 04:27:17 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1FCRBbq020725; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 04:27:12 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1FCR8OV020707; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 04:27:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 04:27:08 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=jacl0Jbdyed9P0gB6tHjvjR2SN3pNefO+lEU/iaVagCrj/6akbG25O2VzCSfX7ja; Message-ID: <410-220052215112640710 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Speculation on ZPE Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 05:26:40 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94066b4d0c650a86fabc0ac63501e0a9ddf350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.215 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57754 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII If the energy (E) in the classical equation E = mc^2 intrinsically contains (is part of) the Vacuum Zero Point Energy (ZPE) then: dE = dmc^2 IOW, the classical radius of the fundamental particles, R = kq^2/E or R = kq^2/mc^2 can be varied by "environmental" conditions that vary the intrinsic ZPE: dR = kq^2/dE or dR = kq^2/dmc^2. Thus, a mass change (dm) under one set of conditions can give off energy and "absorb" it under others. For instance, atoms/molecules in the cold-tenuous upper atmosphere ( or space) can effect a dE (hence mass change of them) which can be reversed in an experiment, that causes an energy releasing mass change dm. Rather subtle? Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

If  the energy (E) in the classical equation E = mc^2  intrinsically contains
(is part of) the Vacuum Zero Point Energy (ZPE) then:
 
dE = dmc^2   
 
IOW, the classical radius of the fundamental particles,  R = kq^2/E   or R = kq^2/mc^2
 
can be varied by "environmental" conditions that vary the intrinsic ZPE:  dR = kq^2/dE 
or dR = kq^2/dmc^2.
 
Thus, a mass change (dm) under one set of conditions can give off energy and
"absorb" it under others.
 
For instance, atoms/molecules in the cold-tenuous upper atmosphere ( or space) can
effect a dE  (hence mass change of them) which can be reversed in an experiment,
that causes an energy releasing mass change dm.
 
Rather subtle?
 
Frederick
 
 
 
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 15 05:06:38 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1FD6Gbq002538; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 05:06:20 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1FD6EcH002509; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 05:06:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 05:06:14 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 04:05:43 -0900 To: "vortex-l" From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Speculation on ZPE Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57755 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 5:26 AM 2/15/5, Frederick Sparber wrote: >If the energy (E) in the classical equation E = mc^2 intrinsically contains >(is part of) the Vacuum Zero Point Energy (ZPE) then: > >dE = dmc^2 > >IOW, the classical radius of the fundamental particles, R = kq^2/E or R >= kq^2/mc^2 > >can be varied by "environmental" conditions that vary the intrinsic ZPE: >dR = kq^2/dE >or dR = kq^2/dmc^2. > >Thus, a mass change (dm) under one set of conditions can give off energy and >"absorb" it under others. > >For instance, atoms/molecules in the cold-tenuous upper atmosphere ( or >space) can >effect a dE (hence mass change of them) which can be reversed in an >experiment, >that causes an energy releasing mass change dm. > >Rather subtle? Looks somewhat familiar to me. Uncertainty of momentum for a particle constrained by distance delta x is given by: delta mv = h/(2 Pi delta x) but since KE = 1/2 m v^2 = 1/(2 m) {delta mv)^2 delta KE = 1/(2 m) (h/(2 Pi delta x))^2 delta KE = h^2 /(8 Pi^2 m) (delta x)^2 the more you can confine the *position* of a particle the more energy you can potentially observe when you sample that energy. For example, if an electron can be confined to a 1 angstrom range then there is an uncertainty of 1.06x10^-24 kg-m/s on the momentum and thus 6.1x10^-19 J or 3.8 eV uncertainty on energy. However, since delta KE = (delta m) * c^2 delta m = h^2 /(8 Pi^2 m c^2) (delta x)^2 so mass due to ZPE increases as the square of the confinement radius. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 15 05:10:44 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1FDAVbq003908; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 05:10:32 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1FDATM2003874; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 05:10:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 05:10:29 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 04:10:18 -0900 To: "vortex-l" From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Speculation on ZPE Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57756 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 5:26 AM 2/15/5, Frederick Sparber wrote: >If the energy (E) in the classical equation E = mc^2 intrinsically contains >(is part of) the Vacuum Zero Point Energy (ZPE) then: > >dE = dmc^2 > >IOW, the classical radius of the fundamental particles, R = kq^2/E or R >= kq^2/mc^2 > >can be varied by "environmental" conditions that vary the intrinsic ZPE: >dR = kq^2/dE >or dR = kq^2/dmc^2. > >Thus, a mass change (dm) under one set of conditions can give off energy and >"absorb" it under others. > >For instance, atoms/molecules in the cold-tenuous upper atmosphere ( or >space) can >effect a dE (hence mass change of them) which can be reversed in an >experiment, >that causes an energy releasing mass change dm. > >Rather subtle? Looks somewhat familiar to me. Corrected values follow. Uncertainty of momentum for a particle constrained by distance delta x is given by: delta mv = h/(2 Pi delta x) but since KE = 1/2 m v^2 = 1/(2 m) {delta mv)^2 delta KE = 1/(2 m) (h/(2 Pi delta x))^2 delta KE = h^2 /[(8 Pi^2 m) (delta x)^2] the more you can confine the *position* of a particle the more energy you can potentially observe when you sample that energy. For example, if an electron can be confined to a 1 angstrom range then there is an uncertainty of 1.06x10^-24 kg-m/s on the momentum and thus 6.1x10^-19 J or 3.8 eV uncertainty on energy. However, since delta KE = (delta m) * c^2 delta m = h^2 /[(8 Pi^2 m c^2) (delta x)^2] so incremental mass due to ZPE increases as the inverse square of the confinement radius. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 15 05:47:57 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1FDljbq017073; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 05:47:45 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1FDlhG4017052; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 05:47:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 05:47:43 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: <631976a1-b958-4989-8e23-bc58846c3f53> Message-ID: <00c201c51364$e5a3ecf0$0958ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: Subject: Re: "Mission Earth" . . . Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 08:47:13 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57757 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Keith wrote: . . > Hey Terry, > > Nope, not a one. But LRH himself makes for a remarkable > biographical subject. Just don't bother with the "offical" > stuff, it's all phony and boring to boot. The real story > is fascinating and well worth the few hours of reading. Here's > the link > > http://www.clambake.org/archive/books/bfm/bfmconte.htm > > The chapter headings are a little pulpy, but the author > has done his homework. A remarkable story, huh? > > K. ---------------------------- LRH's story is remarkable indeed and I paid close attention to his work, and his critics, for many years. He did indeed write Mission Earth and I read part of the series and then got bored with it; it is not his best writing. As for "Clambake", don't assume that a collection of quotes assembled by disgruntled people is "the truth" any more than the opinions of "experts" about CF is "the truth". For Keith to assert that the "official" LRH story is "phony and boring" but the "clambake" collection is "true" says something about his mindset; in which case he is unable to understand what is valuable among LRH's product. This is off topic for Vortex and I will have nothing more to say about it. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 15 07:14:40 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1FFENbq022639; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 07:14:23 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1FFELbB022604; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 07:14:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 07:14:21 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type; b=mQGru6JlNBXRDjcU441x6uWy+m91NoDOwGQh7Pq+tv62YSACwnoT3L6dLWrXXnAP; Message-ID: <410-220052215141348730 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Speculation on ZPE Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 08:13:48 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9404a3f58ede819e5ffef6fd8afe09b4d77350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.159.34 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57758 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: > > At 5:26 AM 2/15/5, Frederick Sparber wrote: > >If the energy (E) in the classical equation E = mc^2 intrinsically contains > >(is part of) the Vacuum Zero Point Energy (ZPE) then: > > > >dE = dmc^2 > > > >IOW, the classical radius of the fundamental particles, R = kq^2/E or R > >= kq^2/mc^2 > > > >can be varied by "environmental" conditions that vary the intrinsic ZPE: > >dR = kq^2/dE > >or dR = kq^2/dmc^2. > > > >Thus, a mass change (dm) under one set of conditions can give off energy and > >"absorb" it under others. > > > >For instance, atoms/molecules in the cold-tenuous upper atmosphere ( or > >space) can > >effect a dE (hence mass change of them) which can be reversed in an > >experiment, > >that causes an energy releasing mass change dm. > > > >Rather subtle? > > Looks somewhat familiar to me. Corrected values follow. > > Uncertainty of momentum for a particle constrained by distance delta x is > given by: > > delta mv = h/(2 Pi delta x) > > but since > > KE = 1/2 m v^2 = 1/(2 m) {delta mv)^2 > > delta KE = 1/(2 m) (h/(2 Pi delta x))^2 > > delta KE = h^2 /[(8 Pi^2 m) (delta x)^2] > > the more you can confine the *position* of a particle the more energy you > can potentially observe when you sample that energy. For example, if an > electron can be confined to a 1 angstrom range then there is an uncertainty > of 1.06x10^-24 kg-m/s on the momentum and thus 6.1x10^-19 J or 3.8 eV > uncertainty on energy. > Does this mean that Bridgman's high pressure squeezing of water/ice dumped energy, then ZPE "pumped in enough energy to allow it to "explode" when the pressure was released? > > However, since delta KE = (delta m) * c^2 > > delta m = h^2 /[(8 Pi^2 m c^2) (delta x)^2] > > so incremental mass due to ZPE increases as the inverse square of the > confinement radius. > Does that square with the mass defect binding energy release of nucleons, or quarks in a proton, as well as the atomic binding energy in molecules? Or the 1/R^4 attractive force between the plates in the Casimir Effect? http://www.edpsciences.org/articles/epl/abs/1999/08/46222/46222.html "Inclusions embedded in fluctuating fluid membranes have been shown to experience membrane mediated forces decaying as 1/R4. Modeling the inclusions as local constraints on the membrane curvature tensor, we show that the presence of external torques (mechanical or field-induced) strongly enhances and increases the range of the interactions. Repulsive mean-field contributions and attractive fluctuation (Casimir) contributions of range 1/R2 or longer are found, which may combine to yield equilibrium distances." > Frederick > > Regards, > > Horace Heffner > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 15 08:25:50 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1FGPPbC027537; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 08:25:30 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1FGPNAg027506; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 08:25:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 08:25:23 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <055001c5137a$18677b60$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex-l" References: <410-220052215141348730 earthlink.net> Subject: Re: Speculation on ZPE Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 08:18:26 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57759 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Messages ----- From: Frederick Sparber and Horace Heffner > Does this mean that Bridgman's high pressure squeezing of water/ice dumped energy, then ZPE "pumped in enough energy to allow it to "explode" when the pressure was released? [snip] or the 1/R^4 attractive force between the plates in the Casimir Effect? Someone seems to have been 'mind-reading' a post I was working on in which I was going to suggest that nano-sized water-ice crystals, in a liquid "slush" using LN, liquid air, or liquid N2O as the carrier liquids, when pulse spayed into a turbine of ICE, might possibly utilize Casimir forces (or Horace's related AEH) instead of heat energy in order to achieve the 800-to-1 expansion ratio of these liquids. Don't you love it that ICE also refers to the internal combustion engine, as well as a potential fuel ? BTW keep in mind that the expansion (compression) ratio in most auto engines is 10-1 or in diesels, it is the more efficient 25-1 but with 800-1 expansion ratio, and with zero losses on the compression side (the have already occurred on the manufacturing side), my only question is - why hasn't someone stumbled on this before now? ANSWER: I doubt if one in hundred automotive engineers remembers the Bridgman effect from an old college course (but every materials engineer like Frank Grimer knows it well) nor have these guys got even the slightest clue that the Casimir force is a potentially "real" resource, just waiting to be used when the proper "geometry" can be accommodated in the fuel itself. Exploding ice is real and is OU (as is the 'exploding glass' phenomena from Sandia) - no doubt about that. The only question is, can it be applied to nano-particulates on a fast sequential time scale. Jones BTW, dredged up this old post to Horace re: his AEH hypothesis wrt electrolyzed water-ice being used as a fuel: Congratulations, Horace, I think you are finally on the verge of not only "getting it," but supplying a major missing piece of the puzzle....and yes the AEH (which had escaped my memory up to now) must indeed be a major and essential factor in the putative phenomenon of water-fuel. > In the discussion of the use of water vapor to increase internal combustion efficiency, perhaps consideration should be given to maximizing the creation of H+ ions, or any reduced volume ions, during and immediately prior to the compression cycle. It may well be the creation of such ions during electrical discharges in water, and the pressure increase due to the heat energy and confinement of the water, may account for some of the free energy results of the Graneaus'. In previous posts, it has been suggested that much of the "free energy" of water-fuel (assuming that it is a real phenomenon) could most likely be related to ice-explosion and/or to clathrate-hydrate production followed by the sequential and immediate destruction (explosion) of the clathrate as part of the normal cycle of an ICE (internal combustion engine). Specifically, I have mentioned three ions that might possibly form the core of water-fuel clathrates in an electric field, the prime one being the hydroxyl radical, OH+ and its close chemical relative, the hydro-[snip]radical: HO2+ and of course, hydronium. All of these have polar affinity to water molecules and may serve to form the nucleating core of clathrate-hydrates when air is entrained by cold water in an electrolysis cell, prior to being introduced into a partial vacuum. When drawn into a partial vacuum by a modified ICE on its intake stroke, an external layer of the charged "fog" microspheres that will be formed in the electrolysis cell will sublimate (flash off) immediately from the surface of each tiny sphere of the mist, adding compressive stress to the smaller sphere that remains - while at the same time withdrawing the heat of vaporization from the smaller sphere that remains, so that we end up a clathrate-hydrate for a millisecond or two. Clathrate hydrates are cage-like structures of surprising strength composed of water-ice surrounding another molecule(s). Air-clathrate hydrates - specifically might have the time to first form, and then immediately explode, in the course of a single half revolution of an ICE, a time frame of 10 milliseconds or so, due to the alternating sequence of vacuum and compression. This would require the convergence of: 1) Very cold water 2) An electric field 3) Injection into a partial vacuum, followed immediately by high compression on a very short time frame Structure II hydrates a cages for any number of gases, such as oxygen and nitrogen, as well as a host of larger molecules and ions. The unit cell consists of 136 hydrogen bonded water molecules arranged in 16 dodecahedral cages and 8 hexadecahedral cages. The 16 small cages have a radius of 3.91 A and can hold molecules with diameter less than 5 A. The 8 large cages are 4.73 A in radius and can hold molecules with diameters of 6.7 A or less and its cubic unit is 17 A on a side. The normal Structure II clathrate-hydrate has a tensile strength that has been estimated to be higher than many metals, though not as high as palladium. In the past I have assumed that the triaxial failure of the bonding of these strong cages (as well as normal ice spheres) have supplied most of the excess energy of water fuel. This is the basis of what I have been calling "CAMFR" of chemically-assisted-mechanical-failure-reactions. Having revisited your AEH just now, it seem pretty clear to me that these "expansion" mechanics of yours (if broadened to include other ions) must figure directly into CAMFR as a major factor in any excess energy that derives from water fuel. (no snub was intended - I had simply forgotten about your theory). The AEH would seem to provide the best explanation for the internal pressure differential which is the factor behind the all-important PV^6 relationship that was discovered by Frank Grimer. Therefore all of this is integral to an evolving theory. I don't see the AEH as an alternative or competing idea but part and parcel of an increasingly complex phenomenon. In fact, we have given your ideas a 6th-power boost, so to speak. It has always seemed that water-fuel (assuming it is real) must be a very complex convergence of interlocking events - in a process which has been fortuitously rediscovered numerous times in the past 70 years basically through "hit or miss" type of experimentation (although the Garrett patent of 1935 which is the source of almost all of the so-called "free-energy suppression" myths, may have been the first bona fide evidence of CAMFR / AEH. The possibility that water can be used as fuel is little appreciated till recently, snubbed-at really, nor has it yet to be optimized or even available "on demand", but this lack of interest could be indicative of the fact that no one amassed the necessary range of information necessary to grasp the complicated inter-disciplinary mechanics involved, and no scientist with a reputation (and tenure) wanted to touch the subject. Their loss, our gain (maybe). When Occam is your credo, you will necessarily miss everything that by its very nature is resistant to easy explanation. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 15 09:30:32 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1FHTx7Q018273; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 09:29:59 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1FHTsH7018232; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 09:29:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 09:29:54 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: "Mission Earth" . . . Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 12:30:42 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <00c201c51364$e5a3ecf0$0958ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57760 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Mike writes: >LRH's story is remarkable indeed and I paid close attention to his work, and >his critics, for many years. He did indeed write Mission Earth and I read >part of the series and then got bored with it; it is not his best writing. >As for "Clambake", don't assume that a collection of quotes assembled by >disgruntled people is "the truth" any more than the opinions of "experts" >about CF is "the truth". For Keith to assert that the "official" LRH story >is "phony and boring" but the "clambake" collection is "true" says something >about his mindset; in which case he is unable to understand what is valuable >among LRH's product. >This is off topic for Vortex and I will have nothing more to say about it. Now now, it's hardly off topic. I think much can be learned from a study of this phenomena. And it remains that the official story about LRH is boring and trite; a childs fable. The actual story is both fascinating and instructive, and although I wish the author had been less biased in the presentation one can appreciate the story and it's message even with the snarky comments. Mike complains that this is a collection of quotes from disgruntled people, disregarding the wealth of personal information about LRH's early life including pictures and original documents. Had he bothered to read my link, he'd find this description of how this telling came about. http://www.clambake.org/archive/books/bfm/preface.htm Unlike the author, I understand why Hubbard said the things he did about himself, despite the fact that his real story is far more interesting and inspiring. If you read the story you may understand it as well. Again, look past the snarky comments, and just follow the story. The world may have forgotten Coyote, but Coyote has not forgotten the world. Such an old spirit, such a new face. K. PS: Now tell me what you find valuable about LRH's product, Mike. You may find I am quite familiar with the details of the COS, although my fur and tail and lolling tongue may prevent you from taking me seriously (grin). From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 15 09:41:24 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1FHfB7Q023830; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 09:41:11 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1FHf4De023766; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 09:41:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 09:41:04 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=nqQaFAeO9MX4qJkhM2302/NuQeCkIq1siADWiPuHAlvLyUhy9ukU2RxP50DGurbN+KdSzV4qnT0ocH7l+42ndSu/CmbUD/YEU1g5FP0a8eaX4gFWKL3Nb8q5AtTyYeY4z4PWl4Xpvu3akQJJw8eyx+3T1udRSoQN0Q5rF9boRIU= ; Message-ID: <20050215174049.32070.qmail web51702.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 09:40:49 -0800 (PST) From: Terry Blanton Subject: RE: "Mission Earth" . . . To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="0-1150834477-1108489249=:29816" Resent-Message-ID: <-sYmAC.A.IzF.uQjECB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57761 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --0-1150834477-1108489249=:29816 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1776562965-1108489249=:29816" --0-1776562965-1108489249=:29816 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --0-1776562965-1108489249=:29816 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii


 

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http://mail.yahoo.com --0-1776562965-1108489249=:29816-- --0-1150834477-1108489249=:29816 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Received: from [70.150.70.66] by web51708.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 09:35:05 PST Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 09:35:05 -0800 (PST) From: Terry Blanton Subject: RE: "Mission Earth" . . . To: knagel gis.net In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-542203814-1108488905=:98245" Content-Length: 1471 --0-542203814-1108488905=:98245 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Yeah, and you can get sued by just reading clambake.com. ;-) It's been a while since I've read it. Does it go into LRH's relationships with Crowley and Parsons? http://www.arcane-archive.org/religion/thelema/parsons-hubbard-and-crowley-1.php Anyway, the decology is about an alien civilization that tries to seed new energy technology into Earth technology so the planet will still be worth having when it comes time for Earth to be invaded by the aliens. They are constantly thwarted by Rockefellar, Std Oil, and the CIA working to keep the Earth on fossil fuels. Keith Nagel wrote: Hey Terry, Nope, not a one. But LRH himself makes for a remarkable biographical subject. Just don't bother with the "offical" stuff, it's all phony and boring to boot. The real story is fascinating and well worth the few hours of reading. Here's the link http://www.clambake.org/archive/books/bfm/bfmconte.htm The chapter headings are a little pulpy, but the author has done his homework. A remarkable story, huh? K. -----Original Message----- From: Terry Blanton [mailto:terry1094 yahoo.com] Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 9:05 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: "Mission Earth" . . . . . . was the title of a decology by LRH (released posthumusly, I think). Has anyone read *any* of these books allegedly authored by the founder of Scientology? They are quite timely, explaining why new energy technologies have not, er, taken off. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. Learn more. --0-542203814-1108488905=:98245 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

Yeah, and you can get sued by just reading clambake.com.  ;-)
 
It's been a while since I've read it.  Does it go into LRH's relationships with Crowley and Parsons?
 
 
Anyway, the decology is about an alien civilization that tries to seed new energy technology into Earth technology so the planet will still be worth having when it comes time for Earth to be invaded by the aliens.  They are constantly thwarted by Rockefellar, Std Oil, and the CIA working to keep the Earth on fossil fuels.

Keith Nagel <knagel gis.net> wrote:
Hey Terry,

Nope, not a one. But LRH himself makes for a remarkable
biographical subject. Just don't bother with the "offical"
stuff, it's all phony and boring to boot. The real story
is fascinating and well worth the few hours of reading. Here's
the link

http://www.clambake.org/archive/books/bfm/bfmconte.htm

The chapter headings are a little pulpy, but the author
has done his homework. A remarkable story, huh?

K.

-----Original Message-----
From: Terry Blanton [mailto:terry1094 yahoo.com]
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 9:05 PM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: "Mission Earth" . . .


. . . was the title of a decology by LRH (released
posthumusly, I think). Has anyone read *any* of these
books allegedly authored by the founder of
Scientology? They are quite timely, explaining why
new energy technologies have not, er, taken off.



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Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. Learn more. --0-542203814-1108488905=:98245-- --0-1150834477-1108489249=:29816-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 15 10:06:02 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1FI5YaA000978; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 10:05:35 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1FI54ia000752; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 10:05:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 10:05:04 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <057001c51388$04b555c0$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: Best Use for Wind energy? Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 09:58:55 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_056D_01C51344.F602A700" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57762 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_056D_01C51344.F602A700 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Because wind energy is becoming cheaper, but is often not available when = or where it is most needed, here is a suggestion on the best way to = store wind energy. Produce liquid air for a transportation fuel (i.e. energy storage = medium). Let me repeat (as a query ) one more time for emphasis. Is there any = better way to use wind energy (in the near future) than to produce = liquid air? Why? With Dewars, liquid air can be stored for weeks without loosing = much energy. You can make it in areas (like that Sioux reservation in = the FSB article) which are a few days by dewar-truck from major = metropolitan areas. Also because of the continuous free airflow around = the windmill itself, the heat of compression can be removed from air as = it is being produced on the mill. Also because mechanical compressors = are much cheaper than electric generators, these wind farms should cost = less. As a transport fuel liquid air is competitive with gasoline at about $2. = per gallon (according to the references below), which is the present = price. Do you think that the price of gasoline will go down anytime = soon? Efficiency of these liquid air engines should skyrocket once Detroit = learns how to utilize the Casimir force, or the AEH force, in the fuel = by incorporating nano-particulates (such as electrolyzed = clathrate-hydrates). All they need do is tune-in for advice from vortex = ;-) First things first. We need to develop a market for liquid air engines, = even the "old style". Here is some good resource material. http://www.phys.unt.edu/~cordonez/thecb.html Just say adieu to CO2.... Jones Maybe Detroit would pay more attention to these "great ideas" if we = could charge an exorbitant consulting fee?=20 Hey Bill, why not charge Detroit a few $mm/per yr. for unlimited vortex = access... and of course, split it with the pundits... ;-) ------=_NextPart_000_056D_01C51344.F602A700 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Because wind energy is becoming cheaper, but is often not = available when or where it is most needed, here is a suggestion on the = best way=20 to store wind energy.
 
Produce liquid air for a transportation fuel (i.e. energy = storage=20 medium).
 
Let me repeat (as a query ) one more time for emphasis. Is there = any better=20 way to use wind energy (in the near future) than to produce liquid = air?
 
Why? With Dewars, liquid air can be stored for weeks without = loosing much=20 energy. You can make it in areas (like that Sioux reservation in the FSB = article) which are a few days by dewar-truck from major metropolitan = areas. Also=20 because of the continuous free airflow around the windmill itself, = the heat=20 of compression can be removed from air as it is being produced on the = mill. Also=20 because mechanical compressors are much cheaper than electric = generators, these=20 wind farms should cost less.
 
As a transport fuel liquid air is competitive with gasoline at = about $2.=20 per gallon (according to the references below), which is the present = price. Do=20 you think that the price of gasoline will go down anytime soon?
 
Efficiency of these liquid air engines should skyrocket once = Detroit learns=20 how to utilize the Casimir force, or the AEH force, in the = fuel by=20 incorporating nano-particulates (such as = electrolyzed clathrate-hydrates).=20 All they need do is tune-in for advice from = vortex  ;-)
 
First things first. We need to develop a market for liquid air = engines,=20 even the "old style". Here is some good resource material.
http://www.phys.unt= .edu/~cordonez/thecb.html
 
Just say adieu to CO2....
 
Jones
 
Maybe Detroit would pay more attention to these "great ideas" if we = could=20 charge an exorbitant consulting fee?
 
Hey Bill, why not charge Detroit a few  $mm/per yr. for = unlimited=20 vortex access... and of course, split it with the pundits...=20 ;-)
------=_NextPart_000_056D_01C51344.F602A700-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 15 10:07:30 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1FI7CaA001876; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 10:07:13 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1FI75ap001823; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 10:07:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 10:07:05 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=ivlx0Fgfpg6C4DIN+ahV9t4L+3VS+x54g0SmEC1xAwCwPjCqiTaNrjQcn0RWi2JKBhVV8UAfW3w6mqcEwkYxvGR6aIcpCfMXO0BgCIQss9+YKvs2T+apzjGdUmpgo/7fAE2eGERaJiEPD2/J8QyrZTA4aa4ySccQW3ygD/n1C7U= ; Message-ID: <20050215180651.13595.qmail web51708.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 10:06:51 -0800 (PST) From: Terry Blanton Subject: [OT] Scientology To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1676777913-1108490811=:12036" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57763 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A --0-1676777913-1108490811=:12036 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii The "Mission Earth" thread was not intended to devolve into a discussion on Scientology. Indeed, I believe the anecdote that LRH started Scientology as a result of a bet with Robert Heinlein; that, LRH could not invent a religion that would be recognized as such by the IRS. But, here it is, listed as Off Topic, if anyone wants to comment. "He took my wife, my boat, and all I have is this Scientology T-shirt to show for it." - A. Rocket Scientist --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' --0-1676777913-1108490811=:12036 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
The "Mission Earth" thread was not intended to devolve into a discussion on Scientology.  Indeed, I believe the anecdote that LRH started Scientology as a result of a bet with Robert Heinlein; that, LRH could not invent a religion that would be recognized as such by the IRS.
 
But, here it is, listed as Off Topic, if anyone wants to comment. 
 
"He took my wife, my boat, and all I have is this Scientology T-shirt to show for it."
 
- A. Rocket Scientist

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Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' --0-1676777913-1108490811=:12036-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 15 10:33:54 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1FIXS0D015270; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 10:33:28 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1FIXPhh015232; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 10:33:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 10:33:25 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: [OT] Scientology Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 13:33:59 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <20050215180651.13595.qmail web51708.mail.yahoo.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57764 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: (O)ff (T)opic for some, (O)perating (T)hetan to others... Ordinarily I'd excoriate you for not reading the links, but that joke of yours was so funny that Coyote almost choked on his rabbit breakfast... So he's willing to do some digging for you. Here's the story of Parsons and Hubbard. http://www.clambake.org/archive/books/bfm/bfm07.htm Back to the rabbits. K. -----Original Message----- From: Terry Blanton [mailto:terry1094 yahoo.com] Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 1:07 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: [OT] Scientology The "Mission Earth" thread was not intended to devolve into a discussion on Scientology. Indeed, I believe the anecdote that LRH started Scientology as a result of a bet with Robert Heinlein; that, LRH could not invent a religion that would be recognized as such by the IRS. But, here it is, listed as Off Topic, if anyone wants to comment. "He took my wife, my boat, and all I have is this Scientology T-shirt to show for it." - A. Rocket Scientist Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 15 10:47:34 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1FIlIG6021424; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 10:47:19 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1FIlGxA021394; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 10:47:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 10:47:16 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <05a201c5138d$f2506a40$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: Subject: So Sioux me... Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 10:41:21 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_059F_01C5134A.E3A6E340" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57765 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_059F_01C5134A.E3A6E340 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "Although wind energy is a $2-billion-a-year industry in the U.S., it = provides less than 1% of the country's total electricity. That is about = to increase, though. " "Wind is the world's fastest-growing energy technology, according to the = U.S. Department of Energy. Thanks to plummeting costs (at around 4 cents = a kilowatt-hour after subsidies, wind energy can be less expensive than = that produced by some new fossil-fuel power plants), installed capacity = increased 36% last year=97enough to light the city of Detroit." http://www.fortune.com/fortune/smallbusiness/articles/0,15114,1018740,00.= html The Sioux wind is like... ... ten miles of a two-lane On a South Dakota wheat plain In the middle of a hard rain A slow boat or a fast train I am gonna keep my head on straight Steady on! I am weaving, like a drunkard Like a balloon up in the air I am needing a puncture and someone To point me somewhere I'm gonna keep my head on straight I just hope it's not too late Open up the gate I go straight on, steady on ...with apologies to Shawn and John ------=_NextPart_000_059F_01C5134A.E3A6E340 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
"Although wind energy is a $2-billion-a-year industry in the U.S., = it=20 provides less than 1% of the country's total electricity. That is about = to=20 increase, though. "
 
"Wind is the world's fastest-growing energy technology, according = to the=20 U.S. Department of Energy. Thanks to plummeting costs (at around 4 cents = a=20 kilowatt-hour after subsidies, wind energy can be less expensive than = that=20 produced by some new fossil-fuel power plants), installed capacity = increased 36%=20 last year=97enough to light the city of Detroit."
 
http://www.fortune.com/fortune/smallbusiness/articles/0,151= 14,1018740,00.html
 
The Sioux wind is like...
 
... ten miles of a two-lane
On a South Dakota wheat = plain
In the=20 middle of a hard rain
A slow boat or a fast train
I am gonna keep = my head=20 on straight
Steady on!
 
I am weaving, like a drunkard
Like a balloon up in the air
I = am=20 needing a puncture and someone
To point me somewhere
I'm gonna = keep my=20 head on straight
I just hope it's not too late
Open up the gate I = go=20 straight on, steady on
...with apologies to Shawn and John
------=_NextPart_000_059F_01C5134A.E3A6E340-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 15 11:12:42 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1FJCRG6002020; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 11:12:28 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1FJCNpb001973; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 11:12:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 11:12:23 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick+highsurf.com mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20050214233231.28512.qmail web51710.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050214233231.28512.qmail web51710.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 09:11:59 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Iapetus and Sir Clarke Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57766 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry - Looks to me like the force from a giant impactor (or the lifting tide of a near miss with a large body) might have almost broken the moon in half, but the two sides of the enormous fissure slapped back together from gravity, raising a ridge. (Bet Harold Edgerton would have loved to get a shot of that. Ker-SPLATTT!) - R. >Ya gotta love Richard Hoagland with new claims about >Iapetus: > >http://www.enterprisemission.com/moon1.htm > >But, what *is* that linear ridge ringing the moon? >(Great image 70% down the page.) > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 15 11:35:15 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1FJZ1G6010925; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 11:35:01 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1FJYxKs010896; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 11:34:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 11:34:59 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 10:34:46 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Best Use for Wind energy? Resent-Message-ID: <9xfJuB.A.MqC.j7kECB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57767 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 9:58 AM 2/15/5, Jones Beene wrote: >Because wind energy is becoming cheaper, but is often not available when >or where it is most needed, here is a suggestion on the best way to store >wind energy. > >Produce liquid air for a transportation fuel (i.e. energy storage medium). > >Let me repeat (as a query ) one more time for emphasis. Is there any >better way to use wind energy (in the near future) than to produce liquid >air? Jones, *you* should post the data, and do the math. Speculation is easy, but limited in its power to convince anyone. Just because no one has the time at the moment to acquire the data and do the math for every speculation does not mean everyone agrees with them. [snip] >...compressors are much cheaper than electric generators, these wind farms >should cost less. How do you figure? Liquifaction plants aren't cheap or small. Also important is the fact that direct motion-to-hydrogen generation is possible, without generating electricity first. Electrolysis is still not a fully refined art. Since you are engaged in speculating, I'll do a bit of the same. 8^) I'll just say that electrolysis can be achieved with higher efficiency than air liquifaction. The problem remains hydrogen storage. This problem may soon be solved. Hydrogen can readily be transported by pipeline, and can be stored long term without loss to evaporation. It is a better long term energy transport solution, one that works well with wind, solar and nuclear sources, and a solution getting a lot of research money and attention currently. None of this serves to solve the real problem though, which is a *source* of energy sufficient to provide all the worlds needs long term. Ultimately, nuclear energy in the form of either fission or fusion will have to be used unless some completely new source of energy is developed. The 400 quad world demand, soon to be 500 quads, is a lot of demand, and will ultimately be a source of wars, both military and economic. Meeting the US demand short term can best be done by using every possible means, and that may well include LN2 or liquid air. However, like old windmill generation technology, LN2 or liquid air technology is very likely to be outclassed, and there is the possiblity that could happen soon. Home heating efficiency and cost can be much improved by using wells for thermal storage. Thermal wells can easily be "charged" using energy from windmills or solar, or other means. However, this doesn't help much wih air conditioning. Here is a speculation for you. Perhaps liquid air has a niche in home heating/air conditioning, if a low cost energy source is handy, like solar or wind, or cheap off hour power. The idea is to store the waste heat of liquifaction in a themal well, or in salt phase-change tanks, and simultaneously sore LN2 in underground insulated tanks. The combination of stored heat and stored cold can then be used (in Sterling engine and gas turbine) to generate electricity and/or to directly provide building air conditioning or heating. A complex plant like this is more likely to prove economically viable when used in a house than in a vehicle, and would not have the weight and size constraints associated with vehicles. A similar strategy might be used to store wind farm energy for production in peak hours, though when hydrogen storage and better electrolysis becomes available then hydrogen will become a better means of achieving this. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 15 11:58:36 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1FJwMG6021956; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 11:58:22 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1FJwJGV021923; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 11:58:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 11:58:19 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: <55db3a17-d069-4f7d-b1a5-ac65b3a15984> Message-ID: <00f201c51398$a567d7d0$0958ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: Subject: Re: Best Use for Wind energy? Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 14:57:51 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57768 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace wrote: > [snip] > >...compressors are much cheaper than electric generators, these wind farms > >should cost less. A critical issue is efficient extraction of energy from the wind over a range of vind velocities. Such is accomplished by the current genration of wind tubines with the help of sophisticated electronics. The generator-electronic conversion link can be quite efficient. It is not obvious to me that a direct-coupled pump to an air liquefaction plant will be useful. Air is liquefied by multiple stage refrigeration. Home heating efficiency and cost can be much improved by using wells for > thermal storage. Thermal wells can easily be "charged" using energy from > windmills or solar, or other means. Make that ponds, not wells. Some years ago. some office buildings near Princeton NJ were set up with thermal ponds which were supposed to store heat extracted by air conditioning in the summer and use it with heat pumps to warm the buildings in the winter. I have not heard if the project was successful. A well is essentially constant temperature and cna be used as a heat sink in the summer and heat source in the winter. Heat pump systems for houses are commercially available. Wells have their problems with corrosion. My cousin installed an air-based heating/cooling system for his well insulated house near Kansas City. It is on a farm and when built the utility brought in electric power form some distance expecting nice revenue. But the house is so well built that electcity use is well below the utility's expectation, which has results in a number of investigatory visits. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 15 12:22:47 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1FKMSG6000884; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 12:22:33 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1FKMPHW000846; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 12:22:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 12:22:25 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20050215180651.13595.qmail web51708.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050215180651.13595.qmail web51708.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 14:23:30 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: anomalies on Iapidus Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: <7evOfC.A.KN.AolECB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57769 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Richard C Hoagland was interview on C to C AM a few days ago. He suggested that I read his paper on what Cassini found on Saturn's moon Iapetus. One of the tenants of natural philosophy is that straight lines, square corners, and bisymmetries don't occur naturally. The straight line in question is a twelve mile high wall which seems to extend all the way around the moon. Hoagland makes the case that this in not a natural feature, and I agree with him. While the photograph shows a cratered surface, meteoric bombardment over the millennia would account for that. I hope that I have aroused the curiosity of some of you, the URL is www.enterprisemission.com . Page down to A Moon With a View The Scientology thread reminded me to post some comments on the Cassini mission to Saturn. What, you might ask does Hubbard and Parsons have to do with NASA? Well Richard C Hoagland has been saying for years that there is a connection between NASA and the Occult. He has shown correlations between the their actions and the Occult. Even though alien artifacts would facilitate their funding, they seem hell bent on squelching the story >The "Mission Earth" thread was not intended to devolve into a >discussion on Scientology. Indeed, I believe the anecdote that LRH >started Scientology as a result of a bet with Robert Heinlein; that, >LRH could not invent a religion that would be recognized as such by >the IRS. It would seem that he succeeded. Have any of you heard that JPL stands for Jack Parson's Lab? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 15 12:29:12 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1FKSqG6003544; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 12:28:53 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1FKSm4B003493; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 12:28:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 12:28:48 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <05ec01c5139c$1f703380$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: Subject: Re: Best Use for Wind energy? Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 12:22:50 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_05E9_01C51359.10EFDF60" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57770 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_05E9_01C51359.10EFDF60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Horace writes, =20 > Jones, *you* should post the data, and do the math. Speculation is = easy, but limited in its power to convince anyone. Just because no one = has the time at the moment to acquire the data and do the math for every = speculation does not mean everyone agrees with them. Well, achieving universal agreement was certainly not the immediate aim = of an idea which is quite "green" in many ways, but... as for the rough = math, I was just waiting for the proper seque... i.e. someone to propose = and alternative to compare against. > Since you are engaged in speculating, I'll do a bit of the same. 8^) = I'll > just say that electrolysis can be achieved with higher efficiency than = air > liquefaction. The problem remains hydrogen storage.=20 OK. Nothing like a challenge. Or as Sir Winston, a man who *should = know,* opined after the Nazi air assault known as the Battle of = Britain... "Nothing is as exhilarating as to be shot at without = result."=20 Let's take it from the "torque" of wind energy to the torque delivered = to the automobile tires, and try to put out some best estimates of which = route is more efficient, hydrogen ( I will grant you that the storage = problem will most likely be solved soon), or CA (cryo-air). To = understand the reason it is CA and not LA would require an appreciation = for local politics in CA. Anyway at the wind mill itself air can be compressed and then cooled and = recompressed however many times is necessary to give liquid air at an = optimum efficiency of 48 % of the torque. I disagree with Mike that this = process is not as efficient at low air speeds, but someone like Richard = who is a pump expert may be able to correct me, if this is wrong. The = same wind-torque can be used to generate electricity at an optimum = efficiency of 95%, and if then used for electrolysis nearby (w/o line = losses), using this electricity to produce hydrogen will happen at = better than 80% ERGO at this stage you have hydrogen at 76% vs. CA at = 48%. This seems like a huge advantage, but it is only the first part of = the story. In the automobile, using hydrogen in a fuel cell can be efficient at low = output - up to 60% if the FC is running at 25% of capacity BUT the FC = has a strong reverse efficiency and at 90% usage capacity, the = efficiency is less than 50%. For comparison, according to Knowlen and = Williams, from the Aerospace and Energetics Research Program, University = of Washington in "Quasi-Isothermal Expansion Engines for Liquid Nitrogen = Automotive Propulsion" they conclude:=20 "The potential for utilizing the available energy of liquid nitrogen for = automotive propulsion looks very promising. Heat transfer calculations = of a quasi-isothermal reciprocating engine that has a heater core = imbedded within its expansion chamber indicate that nearly 85% of the = performance of an ideal isothermal power cycle can be attained. Now we are getting down to "brass tacks, no? 1)In this corner, Hydrogen 50% of 76% =3D 38% so far but this is not = net torque, so then one must restate this by the electric motor = inefficiency so lets say it becomes 35% net from wind-to-road. 2) In this corner CA where you have 85% of 48%, or over 40%... PLUS this = is torque to the wheels Preliminary decisions of the judges: CA is at least 10% more efficient = torque-to-torque than is H2. Care to challenge the court-side ruling or to add your own spin on the = numbers? Jones ------=_NextPart_000_05E9_01C51359.10EFDF60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Horace writes,
 
> Jones, *you* should post the data, and do the = math. =20 Speculation is easy,  but limited in its power to convince = anyone. =20 Just because no one has the time at the moment to acquire the data = and do=20 the math for every speculation does not mean everyone agrees with=20 them.
 
Well, achieving universal agreement was certainly not the = immediate=20 aim of an idea which is quite "green" in many ways, but... as for the = rough=20 math, I was just waiting for the proper seque... i.e. someone to propose = and=20 alternative to compare against.

> Since you are engaged in speculating, I'll do a bit of the = same.=20 8^) I'll
> just say that electrolysis can be achieved with higher=20 efficiency than air
> liquefaction.  The problem remains = hydrogen=20 storage. 
 
OK. Nothing like a challenge. Or as Sir Winston, a man who *should = know,*=20 opined after the Nazi air assault known as the Battle of = Britain... =20 "Nothing is as exhilarating as to be shot at without result."
 
Let's take it from the "torque" of wind energy to the torque = delivered to=20 the automobile tires, and try to put out some best estimates of which=20 route is more efficient, hydrogen ( I will grant you that the = storage=20 problem will most likely be solved soon), or CA (cryo-air). To=20 understand the reason it is CA and not LA would require an = appreciation for=20 local politics in CA.
 
Anyway at the wind mill itself air can be compressed and = then=20 cooled and recompressed however many times is necessary to give liquid = air at an=20 optimum efficiency of 48 % of the torque. I disagree with Mike that this = process=20 is not as efficient at low air speeds, but someone like Richard who is a = pump=20 expert may be able to correct me, if this is wrong. The same wind-torque = can be=20 used to generate electricity at an optimum efficiency of 95%, and if = then used=20 for electrolysis nearby (w/o line losses), using this electricity to = produce=20 hydrogen will happen at better than 80% ERGO at this stage you have = hydrogen at=20 76% vs. CA at 48%.  This seems like a huge advantage, but it is = only the=20 first part of the story.
 
In the automobile, using hydrogen in a fuel cell can be efficient = at low=20 output - up to 60% if the FC is running at 25% of capacity BUT the FC = has a=20 strong reverse efficiency and at 90% usage capacity, the efficiency is = less than=20 50%. For comparison, according to Knowlen and Williams, from the = Aerospace and=20 Energetics Research Program, University of Washington in = "Quasi-Isothermal=20 Expansion Engines for Liquid Nitrogen Automotive Propulsion" they = conclude:=20
 
"The potential for utilizing the available energy of liquid = nitrogen for=20 automotive propulsion looks very promising. Heat transfer calculations = of a=20 quasi-isothermal reciprocating engine that has a heater core imbedded = within its=20 expansion chamber indicate that nearly 85% of the performance of an = ideal=20 isothermal power cycle can be attained.
 
Now we are getting down to "brass tacks, no?
 
1)In this corner, Hydrogen  50% of 76% =3D 38% so far but this = is not=20 net torque, so then one must restate this by the electric motor=20 inefficiency so lets say it becomes 35% net from wind-to-road.
 
2) In this corner CA where you have 85% of 48%, or over 40%... PLUS = this is=20 torque to the wheels
 
Preliminary decisions of the judges: CA is at least 10% more = efficient=20 torque-to-torque than is H2.
 
Care to challenge the court-side ruling or to add your own spin on = the=20 numbers?
 
Jones
 

 
------=_NextPart_000_05E9_01C51359.10EFDF60-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 15 13:10:57 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1FLAYG6020480; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 13:10:34 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1FLAMsR020376; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 13:10:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 13:10:22 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: anomalies on Iapidus Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 08:09:59 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <02p4119pskkte517ikvpcnee8u4evi7g7e 4ax.com> References: <20050215180651.13595.qmail web51708.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j1FLAAG6020273 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57771 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In reply to thomas malloy's message of Tue, 15 Feb 2005 14:23:30 -0600: Hi, If a smaller and a larger sphere collided at just the right speed, you might get a ridge line where they joined, and the resultant object would not be spherical because the two spheres were different sizes. However it would have to be a fairly slow collision, otherwise the energy of collision would melt both bodies, and they would solidify as a perfect sphere. >Richard C Hoagland was interview on C to C AM a few days ago. He >suggested that I read his paper on what Cassini found on Saturn's >moon Iapetus. > >One of the tenants of natural philosophy is that straight lines, >square corners, and bisymmetries don't occur naturally. The straight >line in question is a twelve mile high wall which seems to extend all >the way around the moon. Hoagland makes the case that this in not a >natural feature, and I agree with him. While the photograph shows a >cratered surface, meteoric bombardment over the millennia would >account for that. I hope that I have aroused the curiosity of some of >you, the URL is www.enterprisemission.com . Page down to A Moon With >a View [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 15 13:26:41 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1FLQ3G6027371; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 13:26:04 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1FLPtJk027295; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 13:25:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 13:25:55 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 12:25:41 -0900 To: "vortex-l" From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Speculation on ZPE Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57772 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 8:13 AM 2/15/5, Frederick Sparber wrote: >Horace Heffner wrote: [snip] >>For example, if an >> electron can be confined to a 1 angstrom range then there is an >uncertainty >> of 1.06x10^-24 kg-m/s on the momentum and thus 6.1x10^-19 J or 3.8 eV >> uncertainty on energy. >> >Does this mean that Bridgman's high pressure squeezing of water/ice dumped >energy, >then ZPE "pumped in enough energy to allow it to "explode" when the >pressure was released? I don't think this kind of brief squeezing and release indicates or creates a substantial ou effect, but may cause some effect. You can apply the supplied formulas and, based on time of compression and a sampling rate (collision rate) compute the ZPF energy released. Compression of electrons should be met with an increasing and opposing force due to higher kinetic energy in the compressed waveform. This is what keeps matter from collapsing. They key to obtaining free energy from the ZPF is *repeated sampling* of the waveform while it remains compressed/confined. If, by sampling, energy can be drawn off the particle (electron) according to the expected (mean) kinetic energy distribution, which is elevated by ZPE, then energy is obtained from nowhere because the ZPF will *maintain* that elevated mean kinetic energy. Simply releasing the pressure does not do much in the way of obatinaing free energy. A lattice designed expressly for maintaining pressure on free electrons to less than an angstrom seems to me to be the ticket to a free ride. The sampling is accomplished automatically by phonons. >> >> However, since delta KE = (delta m) * c^2 >> >> delta m = h^2 /[(8 Pi^2 m c^2) (delta x)^2] >> >> so incremental mass due to ZPE increases as the inverse square of the >> confinement radius. >> >Does that square with the mass defect binding energy release of nucleons, >or quarks in a proton, as well as the atomic binding energy in molecules? This of course is not a trivial question to answer. Uncertainty does have an effect on binding energy because the energy involved in the ZPF maintained momentum uncertainty sustains a very high heat in the nucleus, and, as shown above, that heat has a corresponding mass. This little mass offset does indeed somewhat affect the curve of binding energy. There is an increase of mass as well a decrease in apparent (mean) biding energy due to the ZPF supplied kinetic energy of the nuclear constituants. The larger the nucleus the less this apprent increase in mass and the less the ZPF sustained kinetic energy (heat). This is due to the fact the atomic radius R can be approximated by: R = (1.2x10^-15 m)*A^(1/3) where A is the atomic mass number. The constant (1.2x10^-15 m) is rough, and is given by some sources as (1.4x10^-15 m). We thus see the more massive the nucleaus the more room it has and thus the lower the ZPF supplied heat. It will be interesting to see if this inverse cube relationship or nuclear heat to atomic radius is sustained by experiment. (See article appended below.) This relationsip implies that deuterium has the highest ZPF sustained heat, and thus the largest probability of tunneling long distances. However, deuterium is not a little sphere but rather dumbell shaped, so the above relation falls down when it comes to deuterium. Still, deuterium should have a wider standard deviation of radius due to ZPF supplied heat due to the complexities of flexible dumbell mechanics. It is also of interest that ZPF supplied nuclear heat does not follow Steffan-Boltzmann law. No radiation occurs unless the nucleus is "sampled" - by interaction with another particle (or unless it is unstable, in which case its half-life is affected by the nuclear temperature. However, this effect is already rolled in to the measured half-lives, as is the mass asscoiated with nuclear heat already rolled into the measured nuclear mass.) Gaining free energy from the ZPF via nuclei it is a matter of causing as many nuclear collisions as possible. Possibly nuclei can be stimulated to emit thermal gammas by photon stimulation as well. From this discussion one has to wonder if neutron stars radiate gammas largely due to energy extracted from the ZPF. > >Or the 1/R^4 attractive force between the plates in the Casimir Effect? This pressure effect is not directly related to the effect to which I refer. The Casimir effect is caused by ZPF virtual photon pressure casued by exclusion of some of the ZPF from a cavity, while the effect I suggest is due to the maintenance of quantum uncertainty with regard to momentum and postition. Both are suggested by some (e.g. Puthoff et al) to be caused by the ZPF, but that is the extent of the relationship. > >http://www.edpsciences.org/articles/epl/abs/1999/08/46222/46222.html > >"Inclusions embedded in fluctuating fluid membranes have been shown to >experience membrane mediated forces decaying as 1/R4. Modeling the >inclusions as local constraints on the membrane curvature tensor, we show >that the presence of external torques (mechanical or field-induced) >strongly enhances and increases the range of the interactions. Repulsive >mean-field contributions and attractive fluctuation (Casimir) contributions >of range 1/R2 or longer are found, which may combine to yield equilibrium >distances." I don't see that the above is related to the suggested sustained effect of continuous energy production while maintaining a static state. Following is an interesting article about the actual measurement of nuclear heat: - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - >PHYSICS NEWS UPDATE >The American Institute of Physics Bulletin of Physics News >Number 443 August 16, 1999 by Phillip F. Schewe and Ben >Stein > >NUCLEAR THERMOMETER. How hot is it inside the nucleus >of a dysprosium atom (element 62, abbreviated Dy)? Temperature >is a statistical concept that normally applies to an ensemble of >many particles, such as air molecules or a gas of atoms kept in a >bottle. Inside a heavy nucleus, swarming with protons and >neutrons (collectively called nucleons) it's not so easy to define >temperature, owing to the many pairing and other inter-nucleon >interactions that take place, but it can be done. The nuclear >environment can be sampled by colliding nuclei together and then >carefully measuring the photons that fly out: high energy gamma >rays, in this case, rather than the visible and infrared photons that >come out of heated-up atomic gases. In this way, physicists at the >University of Oslo have deduced the temperature inside a Dy >nucleus (in effect, a gas of 162 nucleons) to be 6 billion K. It can >be said, therefore, that even in winter parts of Norway (very small >parts) remain quite warm. This is the first time a nuclear >temperature has been measured strictly on the basis of the spectrum >of gammas emitted. (E. Melby et al., Physical Review Letters, >tent. 30 August 1999; contact Magne Guttormsen, >magne.guttormsen fys.uio.no, 011-47-2285-6460.) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 15 13:26:43 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1FLQNG6027510; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 13:26:23 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1FLQ6fb027399; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 13:26:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 13:26:06 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 12:25:48 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Best Use for Wind energy? Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57773 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 2:57 PM 2/15/5, Mike Carrell wrote: >Horace wrote: > >> [snip] >> >...compressors are much cheaper than electric generators, these wind >farms >> >should cost less. I did not write the above. In fact I questioned it. Jones wrote it. > Home heating efficiency and cost can be much improved by using wells for >> thermal storage. Thermal wells can easily be "charged" using energy from >> windmills or solar, or other means. > >Make that ponds, not wells. No, I actually meant wells. Some are 200 feet deep or more. After drilling a an array of themistors and a heat source are lowered into the well to check for and map thermal drains, i.e aqufiers, which are bad. The piping is insulated in depths of the well where heat loss occurs. The operational piping goes down the well and returns. The rock and soil around the well is used for heat storage. There are also shallow horizontal versions involving pipe snaked under maybe 20 feet of soil and insulated on top, which in effect are soil/gravel heat "ponds". Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 15 14:10:00 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1FM9aG6012900; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 14:09:36 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1FM9T3F012824; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 14:09:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 14:09:29 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <061201c513aa$2b014a00$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: Subject: Cost comparison compressor Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 14:03:20 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57774 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >> ...compressors are much cheaper than electric generators, these wind farms should cost less. > I did not write the above. In fact I questioned it. Jones wrote it. Yup, I wrote it and stand by it. Here is an example. Maybe you can find a contrary one... (I'm sure you can, but it stands to reason that with the cost of copper being so much higher than iron, the comparison will favor the item NOT containing lots of copper.) 3 HP compressor Discount Price $199.99 http://www2.northerntool.com/cat-1/87+90145+2000008.htm 3 HP motor 1725 rpm, 230 Volts, 16 Amps, List $439 Discount $390 http://www.phaseconverter.com/ElectricMotor.html BTW DC generators generally cost more than AC motors, so instead of the difference being nearly a 2:1 spread it would likely be more. Jones BTW hydrogen electrolyzers are very expensive, so I do not think that there is much of a case for a favorable capital cost comparison vs. liquefaction. J. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 15 14:11:28 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1FMB7G6013790; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 14:11:08 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1FMB32a013759; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 14:11:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 14:11:03 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 13:10:40 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Best Use for Wind energy? Resent-Message-ID: <8pIsm.A.0WD.1NnECB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57775 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:22 PM 2/15/5, Jones Beene wrote: >Anyway at the wind mill itself air can be compressed and then cooled and >recompressed however many times is necessary to give liquid air at an >optimum efficiency of 48 % of the torque. I disagree with Mike that this >process is not as efficient at low air speeds, but someone like Richard >who is a pump expert may be able to correct me, if this is wrong. Your 48 percent assumption might be a bit out of line. Are you referring here to 48 percent of optimum Carnot effciency and not actual efficiency? I should mention that torque is not work. It is the equivalent of force. Torque times angular velocity is work. Maybe you mean shaft horsepower? Much more importantly, you have to keep in mind that gas compression is limited by Carnot efficiency, based on the difference in temperatures involved. It is a themodynamic process. Hydrogen generation and electricity generation are not limited in this way. There is much room for improvement for the latter two and not much wiggle room, even theoretically for the liquifaction process. The same argument applies to conversion of LN2 to shaft horsepower. This process is limited by the Carnot efficiency. Fuel cells are not so limited. You have totally ignored cost in the cost/benefit. Sure wasted energy is an important factor, but comparative cost of the service is also important. We don't really have cost numbers, other than maybe to compare the cost of a Linde plant to an electric generator of similar capacity. These are fairly meaningless numbers though in that the deisgn of either an electrolysis plant or liquifation plant for a wind application would be substantially different. Further the cost involved represent transport and storage costs. There is a cost/benetif tradeoff which depends on the cost of the source energy. Then there is the question of market preference. If there is a huge market generated for hydrogen then, like Betamax vs VHS, or token-ring vs CDMA, the production will eventually all go where the market is. Though this is all good discussion and the approach may yield practical results for a while, it is important to realize that wind can not solve all the worlds energy problems, and working on a new *source* of energy is the big problem. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 15 14:32:06 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1FMVaG6021877; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 14:31:37 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1FMVXMj021851; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 14:31:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 14:31:33 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050215172404.02b77398 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 17:31:21 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Best Use for Wind energy? In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_29500484==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57776 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_29500484==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Horace Heffner wrote: >Though this is all good discussion and the approach may yield practical >results for a while, it is important to realize that wind can not solve all >the worlds energy problems, and working on a new *source* of energy is the >big problem. I'll bet wind could supply half the world's energy, especially in countries far from the equator. It could easily supply all energy in the U.S. and Northern Europe, and most in northern China. Here is an out-of-date wind atlas for the U.S.: http://rredc.nrel.gov/wind/pubs/atlas/ It is out of date because the potential wind has increased by a very large margin, because wind towers are much taller and they reach farther into the sky and intercept a larger cross-section of the atmosphere. Perhaps if we could develop new carbon filament material capable of building a space elevator, we could also use it to build something similar to wind towers that reach 2 or 3 km into the air. (These would probably not have conventional blades.) If we could build thousands of these we could certainly supply all the energy in the world. On the other hand if we could build space elevators, we could supply all the energy in the world with space-based power systems, which would probably be cheaper and take up less space. Regarding air-conditioning, in Japan some office complexes and factories close to harbors use LNG as a heat sink for the air-conditioning systems. They have to heat this stuff up anyway, before they can use it. - Jed --=====================_29500484==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Horace Heffner wrote:


Though this is all good discussion and the approach may yield practical
results for a while, it is important to realize that wind can not solve all
the worlds energy problems, and working on a new *source* of energy is the
big problem.

I'll bet wind could supply half the world's energy, especially in countries far from the equator. It could easily supply all energy in the U.S. and Northern Europe, and most in northern China.

Here is an out-of-date wind atlas for the U.S.:

http://rredc.nrel.gov/wind/pubs/atlas/

It is out of date because the potential wind has increased by a very large margin, because wind towers are much taller and they reach farther into the sky and intercept a larger cross-section of the atmosphere. Perhaps if we could develop new carbon filament material capable of building a space elevator, we could also use it to build something similar to wind towers that reach 2 or 3 km into the air. (These would probably not have conventional blades.) If we could build thousands of these we could certainly supply all the energy in the world. On the other hand if we could build space elevators, we could supply all the energy in the world with space-based power systems, which would probably be cheaper and take up less space.


Regarding air-conditioning, in Japan some office complexes and factories close to harbors use LNG as a heat sink for the air-conditioning systems. They have to heat this stuff up anyway, before they can use it.

- Jed
 --=====================_29500484==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 15 14:49:12 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1FMmoG6029208; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 14:48:51 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1FMmmU7029170; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 14:48:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 14:48:48 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050215173857.02959f00 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 17:48:28 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Best Use for Wind energy? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_850078==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: <8u75xC.A.hHH.PxnECB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57777 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_850078==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I wrote: > I'll bet wind could supply half the world's energy, especially in countries far from the equator. It could > easily supply all energy in the U.S. and Northern Europe, and most in northern China. And for that matter, I think ocean currents such as the Gulf Stream could supply way more energy than we consume. But it might not be such a hot idea to tap them on a huge scale. Here is a company that wants to tap them on a modest scale, up to a few thousand megawatts: http://www.bluenergy.com/technology.html - Jed --=====================_850078==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" I wrote:

> I'll bet wind could supply half the world's energy, especially in countries far from the equator. It could
> easily supply all energy in the U.S. and Northern Europe, and most in northern China.

And for that matter, I think ocean currents such as the Gulf Stream could supply way more energy than we consume. But it might not be such a hot idea to tap them on a huge scale.

Here is a company that wants to tap them on a modest scale, up to a few thousand megawatts:

http://www.bluenergy.com/technology.html

- Jed
 --=====================_850078==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 15 15:01:43 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1FN1IG6004002; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 15:01:18 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1FN1Es3003949; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 15:01:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 15:01:14 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <063401c513b1$6b4a55a0$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: Subject: Re: Best Use for Wind energy? Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 14:55:17 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57778 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace > Though this is all good discussion and the approach may yield practical results for a while, it is important to realize that wind can not solve all the worlds energy problems, and working on a new *source* of energy is the big problem. Yes. I agree with most of what has been said here. My main purpose was to make the pima facie case that a *cryo-fuel* might be the best choice for using wind energy, which could easily end up supplying as much as 10% of our national needs, if not much more as Jed believes. ... and also... foremost, really, is that we should not automatically assume that because the Petrocracy *wants* hydrogen as the next step, that they are correct. Follow the buck - isn't it because a hydrogen economy would still allow methane to be used long after it should have been legislated out of the fuel business and into the less profitable plastics/chemicals business.) I know... (if Ed is listening and remembers) that just last year, I argued for the hydrogen economy and he against it for other reasons, but there is nobody on vortex who will switch eco-horses faster, once the evidence is firm, and this is starting to shape up a bit. Anyway, the more I think about the possibilities, not of CA (cryo-air) itself but of an enhanced CA, especially when using the aforementioned speculative enhancement - that is, the Bridgman/Casimir/AEH expansion effect as a booster, if such is possible, then the more appealing CA becomes. The only problem is that it does tend to __screw__ big oil, and that possibility might, according to some, lower my life expectancy So be it... Just say adieu to CO2, Jones Warning !! the following is slightly OFF TOPIC... and is rather vulgar and profane. (I don't think that will keep many readers from indulging however) Here is The FCC Song ...written by Eric Idle. Maybe the famous song-twisting duo of Terry and Keith can reword it for the benefit of the DoE. Fuck you very much the FCC Fuck you very much for fining me Five thousand bucks a fuck So I'm really out of luck That's more than Heidi Fleiss was charging me So fuck you very much the FCC for proving that free speech just isn't free Clear Channel's a dear channel So Howard Stern must go Attorney General Ashcroft doesn't like strong words and so He's charging twice as much as all the drugs for Rush Limbaugh So fuck you all so very much So fuck you very much, Dear Mr. Bush For heroically sitting on your tush For Halliburton, Enron, all the companies who fail Let's send them a clear signal and stick Martha straight in jail She's an uppity rich bitch and at least she isn't male So fuck you all so very much So fuck you dickhead Mr. Cheney too Fuck you and fuck everything you do Your pacemaker must be a fake You haven't got a heart As far as I'm concerned you're just a pasty-faced old fart And as for Condoleeza she's an intellectual tart So fuck you all so very much So fuck you very much, the EPA For giving all Alaska's oil away It really is a bummer When I can't fill my hummer The ozone's a nogozone now that Arnold's here to say: "The nuclear winter games are going to take place in LA" So fuck you all so very much So what the planet fails Let's save the great white males And fuck you all so very much From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 15 16:28:01 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1G0RfG6004752; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 16:27:41 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1G0RbZ9004711; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 16:27:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 16:27:37 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Best Use for Wind energy? X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: ID = 909b8a8ff0cae19159d456a4b333f05c Reply-To: michael.foster excite.com From: "Michael Foster" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: michael.foster excite.com X-Mailer: PHP Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050216002724.7C97F1E416 xprdmailfe24.nwk.excite.com> Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 19:27:24 -0500 (EST) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57779 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I think one of the best arguments in favor of the cryo-fuel idea is that it's evolutionary. All of the processes are known and only need to be scaled up and made more efficient. Storage and transport would automatically be more efficient on a larger scale. Although oil companies wouldn't be too happy about it, automobile companies would. They would be essentially making the same type of vehicle, pistons, cylinders, cranks, valves, transmission, etc. But they wouldn't be burdened with all the emission controls and other related regulatory problems. Also, service stations would look pretty much the same. I see no reason why sophisticated electronic control of a CVT couldn't be used to vary pump speed/torque in order use a wind turbine efficiently. After all, making liquid air is just a matter of a bunch of pumps and tubing arranged properly. M. _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 15 17:23:52 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1G1NOG6025878; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 17:23:24 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1G1NKSN025857; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 17:23:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 17:23:20 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 16:23:07 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Cost comparison compressor Resent-Message-ID: <_5cE-C.A.9TG.ICqECB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57780 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 2:03 PM 2/15/5, Jones Beene wrote: >>> ...compressors are much cheaper than electric generators, >these wind >farms should cost less. > >> I did not write the above. In fact I questioned it. >Jones wrote it. > > >Yup, I wrote it and stand by it. > >Here is an example. Maybe you can find a contrary one... >(I'm sure you can, but it stands to reason that with the >cost of copper being so much higher than iron, the >comparison will favor the item NOT containing lots of >copper.) > >3 HP compressor Discount Price $199.99 >http://www2.northerntool.com/cat-1/87+90145+2000008.htm > > 3 HP motor 1725 rpm, 230 Volts, 16 Amps, List $439 >Discount $390 >http://www.phaseconverter.com/ElectricMotor.html > >BTW DC generators generally cost more than AC motors, so >instead of the difference being nearly a 2:1 spread it would >likely be more. A 3 HP compressor is not a liquifaction plant. It therefore doesn't follow that liquifaction is cheaper than electrolysis, etc. > >Jones > >BTW hydrogen electrolyzers are very expensive, so I do not >think that there is much of a case for a favorable capital >cost comparison vs. liquefaction. It would be interesting to find a true liquifaction plant cost. Also, you are ignoring operating cost. A motor or generator can easily run more than 20 years without maintenance. Our local water system has been run by a 5 HP submerged pump for over 20 years. When motor/generators do require maintenance it is typically brushes or bearings. Compressors are more like engines, and require major overhauls. One of the problems though is that of comparing what exists now and what an appropriate amount of research and engineering can likely provide for a major source of US energy transport and storage. That applies to both hydrogen and liquified air/LN2 systems. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 15 17:24:03 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1G1NaG6025948; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 17:23:37 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1G1NQQX025896; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 17:23:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 17:23:26 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 16:23:11 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Best Use for Wind energy? Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57781 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 5:31 PM 2/15/5, Jed Rothwell wrote: >>Though this is all good discussion and the approach may yield practical >>results for a while, it is important to realize that wind can not solve all >>the worlds energy problems, and working on a new *source* of energy is the >>big problem. > >I'll bet wind could supply half the world's energy, especially in countries >far from the equator. It could easily supply all energy in the U.S. and >Northern Europe, and most in northern China. Well, you do have a point there, provided energy were generated in a storable and transportable fashion. The DOE page: shows the world energy consumption at about 400 quadrillion Btus. That's 400x10^15 Btu or 1.172x10^14 kWh. Given 365 days/yr and 24 h/day that requires a continuous generating capacity of 1.338x10^10 kW = 1.338x10^7 MW = 1.338x10^4 GW. Assuming a minumum of 50 percent loss for transportation and storage, that would be about 27 thousand GW sized windmills (if that's feasible), or 27 million MW windmills. A number more like 6 million 5 MW windmills is closer to what is presently workable, and in reality there would be a wide range of capacities. Gee if they could be made for $1M a piece, that's only $6T. Not bad amortized over 20 years. To be workable worldwide the ouput would not be mostly electrical though, but probably hydrogen. Liquified air might have a place in this scheme as well. I posted in "The Legacy Plan" various times here: "Though the planning horizon for hydrogen is long, it still may be useful to give special weight to projects which produce hydrogen, and to support hydrogen storage, generation, transportation, and fuel cell research. Similar consideration may be warranted for methods of methane production from atmospheric carbon using renewable sources. If wind energy costs continue to decline as in the past 20 years, hydrogen or methane producing wind farms should be cost beneficial within 10 years. This makes feasible many additional locations for major wind energy generation, like Alaska. With sufficient research and appropriate legislation, Alaska alone has the potential to provide the US energy growth needs for generations, though it may take a commitment similar to that of going to the moon to realize it." Alaska mountain tops have formidable wind roses. If the wind there can be harnessed at the -40 F and lower temperatures which often occur there, at at the huge wind velocites, air liquifaction could be fairly efficient, and carbon removal from the atmosphere to make methane from electrolysed hydrogen may also be feasible. The principle problem is energy transportation and storage. Methane is easily transported and stored, even internationally, and there may even be a gas pipeline to the US soon. The principle value of a liquified air approach is that it is doable without major research. It is achievable using engineering alone. That has some merit. The down side is there is a theoretical limit to efficiency and if cheap hydrogen storage technology appears it could obsolete the investment. On the other hand, the investment in the windmills themselves would not be obsoleted, so there may be a timely niche there. It would be interesting to look at the economics of a liquified air shipping model, where the product is bulk stored and then converted to electricity at an equatorial destination. Bulk cryogenic storage is much more efficient than small storage. Also of interest is hydrogen generation and piping to electrical generation plants, vs HV DC power generation and conversion, which could become a very good land transport alternative if room temperature superconductors appear. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 15 17:58:32 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1G1wCG6006459; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 17:58:17 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1G1w8cG006429; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 17:58:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 17:58:08 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: Message-ID: <012201c513ca$ed0c3950$0958ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <05ec01c5139c$1f703380$d0bcfea9@jonesb9pacbell> Subject: Re: Best Use for Wind energy? Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 20:37:47 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: <0KrgL.A.WkB.viqECB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57782 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones wrote: Anyway at the wind mill itself air can be compressed and then cooled and recompressed however many times is necessary to give liquid air at an optimum efficiency of 48 % of the torque. I disagree with Mike that this process is not as efficient at low air speeds, but someone like Richard who is a pump expert may be able to correct me, if this is wrong. MC: This is not simple. You have to capture the maximum energy from the wind at all speeds. For the pump, it is also a matter of torque as well as strokes/second. In principle, if the wind speed is low, you can gear down the propellor shaft and get enough torque to compress the gas. There are variable ratio transmissions, but these are quite inefficient. With an electric generator and the right electronics there are various tricks you can use to extract energy at low speeds; the system doe not stall. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 15 18:17:33 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1G2HKG6014378; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 18:17:21 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1G2H9Wg014295; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 18:17:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 18:17:09 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050214164844.029f9b30 pop.mindspring.com> References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050214164844.029f9b30 pop.mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 20:18:14 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: Bottomless well Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57783 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >thomas malloy wrote: and Jed Rothwell responded; > >Michael Medved, michaelmedved.com interviewed Peter Huber author of >The Bottomless Well. >What hemisphere, exactly? If that include South America (Venezuela) >it is probably true. There is also a lot of oil in Canada and >Alaska. Of course it would cost a fortune to extract it. If he means >oil at $500 per barrel, He said $20 per barrel, this compares with $5 per barrel for Saudi oil. Huber finds it unfortunate that we are continuing to fund the middle east, but that's economics. >These prices do not include the cost of war for oil, ill-health and >early deaths from pollution, You can argue that the flow of petro dollars fueling Wahabi fundamentalist violence is a classic example of unintended consequences, or stupidity, or a conspiracy. >Unfortunately, people are likely to use coal instead, which is even >worse by every measure. Huber agrees with you on that. > >If Huber is saying there is plenty of oil lying around at today's >costs in the US, Canada and Mexico, he should tell you oil companies >about it. They are paying a fortune to He's not saying that, his thesis is that there is plenty of oil we're just going to have to pay more to get it. >- Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 15 19:52:43 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1G3qVG6022561; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 19:52:31 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1G3qS7x022547; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 19:52:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 19:52:28 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <004101c513da$eb6748a0$dd017841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: Speculation on ZPE Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 21:52:19 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_003D_01C513A8.9FD83F70" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-99.5 required=4.0 tests=HTML_20_30,HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57784 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003D_01C513A8.9FD83F70 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_003E_01C513A8.9FDB4CB0" ------=_NextPart_001_003E_01C513A8.9FDB4CB0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankNecessary mechanical systems required for a Bridgman water/ice = theme to function in an internal combustion engine can be worked out. It = is possible to create the vacuum and isolate and tailor the actual = product temperature required by the using a variation of an ejector = throat and nozzle network. Some years ago we played around with several ideas including cascading = ejectors ( staging the discharge of a primary into the throat of = another). Suspect this is how Bull of Canada got his 500 mile range = horwitzer to fly. A variation of this design is also used at Disney to = produce the ultra laminar water stream effect. The required speed of = action of the fuel injection may fit nicely with the interesting = properties of an ejector throat when you consider what happens when you = reverse the flow and redirect using check valves. In effect you have a = staged ( or multistaged) "combustion" at the location and time and = temperature of your choosing... very interesting..hmmm. On to windmills, (costs of compressors vs. electrical generators). = When you consider how much wind energy we waste every day.. does it = matter? The ball piston pump design would make an ideal project for a = company that is interested in building a cryogenic system because it = would be a single ,constant ,no pulse reduction system vs the existing 2 = and 3 stage styles. I have yet to see a Schauberger type windmill ( = wind power plus vortex enhanced ) built and tested. A combo Schauberger = windmill and a cryogenic compressor system seems within the range of = something that would be economically feasible. On to the harvesting of ocean tides and currents.. thats a bridge too = far. The maintenance alone kills the idea even before the costs of = construction per kilowatt hour generated is added up. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_003E_01C513A8.9FDB4CB0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Necessary mechanical systems required for = a=20 Bridgman water/ice theme to function in an internal combustion engine = can be=20 worked out. It is possible to create the vacuum and isolate and tailor = the=20 actual product temperature required by the using a variation of an = ejector=20 throat and nozzle network.
 
Some years ago we played around with several = ideas=20 including cascading ejectors ( staging the discharge of a primary into = the=20 throat of another). Suspect this is how Bull of Canada got his 500 mile = range=20 horwitzer to fly. A variation of this design is also used at Disney = to=20 produce the ultra laminar water stream effect. The required speed = of =20 action of the fuel injection may fit nicely with the interesting = properties of=20 an ejector throat when you consider what happens when you reverse the = flow and=20 redirect using check valves. In effect you have a staged ( or = multistaged)=20 "combustion" at the location and time and temperature of your = choosing...=20 very interesting..hmmm.
 
On to windmills,   (costs of = compressors=20 vs. electrical generators).       When you = consider how much wind energy we waste every day.. does it matter? The = ball=20 piston pump design would make an ideal project for a company that is = interested=20 in building a cryogenic system because it would be a single ,constant = ,no pulse=20 reduction system vs the existing 2 and 3 stage styles.  I have yet = to see a=20 Schauberger type windmill ( wind power plus vortex enhanced ) built and = tested.=20 A combo Schauberger windmill and a cryogenic compressor system seems = within the=20 range of something that would be economically feasible.
 
On to the harvesting of ocean tides and = currents.. thats=20 a bridge too far. The maintenance alone kills the idea even before the = costs of=20 construction per kilowatt hour generated is added up.
 
Richard
 

 

------=_NextPart_001_003E_01C513A8.9FDB4CB0-- ------=_NextPart_000_003D_01C513A8.9FD83F70 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <003c01c513da$ea10e060$dd017841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_003D_01C513A8.9FD83F70-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 15 20:56:19 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1G4u86V014321; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 20:56:09 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1G4u5Fi014296; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 20:56:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 20:56:05 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <02p4119pskkte517ikvpcnee8u4evi7g7e 4ax.com> References: <20050215180651.13595.qmail web51708.mail.yahoo.com> <02p4119pskkte517ikvpcnee8u4evi7g7e 4ax.com> Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 22:56:48 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: anomalies on Iapidus Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57785 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin Von Spaandonk replied >In reply to thomas malloy's message of Tue, 15 Feb 2005 14:23:30 -0600: >Hi, > >If a smaller and a larger sphere collided at just the right speed, >you might get a ridge line where they joined, and the resultant >object would not be spherical because the two spheres were different >sizes. However it would have to be a fairly slow collision, >otherwise the energy of collision would melt both bodies, and they >would solidify as a perfect sphere. Isn't a slow collision between two astronomical bodies oxymoronic? Interesting observation Robin. Can it explain a 60,000 high foot wall too? Then there is the matter of what appear to large holes with a 90 degree corner. Hoagland's hyperdimentional paradigm of physics talks about a nested tetrahedron in a spherical body. Where the vortices of the tetrahedron intersect the sphere's surface, there will be anomalies, the details are linked from the main webpage. BTW, Hoagland has promised two additional papers on the subject. BTW, thank you for correcting my word error, they go right through the spell checker. > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 15 22:51:58 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1G6pikF002303; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 22:51:45 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1G6pg71002250; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 22:51:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 22:51:42 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: anomalies on Iapidus Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 17:51:27 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <8qq511d2uoo43evh22h6ru8g3pkac9bo22 4ax.com> References: <20050215180651.13595.qmail web51708.mail.yahoo.com> <02p4119pskkte517ikvpcnee8u4evi7g7e@4ax.com> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j1G6pXkF002006 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57786 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to thomas malloy's message of Tue, 15 Feb 2005 22:56:48 -0600: Hi, [snip] >>If a smaller and a larger sphere collided at just the right speed, >>you might get a ridge line where they joined, and the resultant >>object would not be spherical because the two spheres were different >>sizes. However it would have to be a fairly slow collision, >>otherwise the energy of collision would melt both bodies, and they >>would solidify as a perfect sphere. > >Isn't a slow collision between two astronomical bodies oxymoronic? Not necessarily, if they are moving together in the same direction, then the differential speed can be very small (otherwise it would be impossible to dock with the ISS). > >Interesting observation Robin. Can it explain a 60,000 high foot wall >too? Yes, that's the ridge around the equator where they bulge during the collision. Two sphere will intersect in a circular plain. Material on the plain gets pushed out to the edges as the bodies move together. >Then there is the matter of what appear to large holes with a 90 >degree corner. One 90º corner is not uncommon in nature. Several can be, especially when the object is very large. (Small objects may by crystals which frequently have 90º angles). >Hoagland's hyperdimentional paradigm of physics talks >about a nested tetrahedron in a spherical body. Where the vortices of >the tetrahedron intersect the sphere's surface, there will be >anomalies, the details are linked from the main webpage. BTW, >Hoagland has promised two additional papers on the subject. > >BTW, thank you for correcting my word error, they go right through >the spell checker. You're welcome. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 16 02:13:56 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1GADjkF018182; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 02:13:46 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1GADdDr018132; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 02:13:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 02:13:39 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 01:13:26 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: anomalies on Iapidus Resent-Message-ID: <91_0pC.A.MbE.SzxECB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57787 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 5:51 PM 2/16/5, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >In reply to thomas malloy's message of Tue, 15 Feb 2005 22:56:48 -0600: >Hi, >[snip] >>>If a smaller and a larger sphere collided at just the right speed, >>>you might get a ridge line where they joined, and the resultant >>>object would not be spherical because the two spheres were different >>>sizes. However it would have to be a fairly slow collision, >>>otherwise the energy of collision would melt both bodies, and they >>>would solidify as a perfect sphere. >> >>Isn't a slow collision between two astronomical bodies oxymoronic? > >Not necessarily, if they are moving together in the same direction, then >the differential speed can be very small (otherwise it would be impossible >to dock with the ISS). The velocity of collision of two bodies of mass and radius M, R, m and r respectivley, is gravitationally bounded (on the low side) by V = (2 G M/(R+r))^0.5 + (2 G m/(R+r))^0.5. In the case of a body docking with the space station both M and m are very small. In the case of planet or moon sized collisions, M and m are large, so the total kinetic energy is large and thus V is large. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 16 03:04:29 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1GB4KkF001748; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 03:04:20 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1GB4IwL001730; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 03:04:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 03:04:18 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 02:04:09 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Shipping LN2 or liquified air Resent-Message-ID: <09WD6C.A.5a.xiyECB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57788 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Shipping liquid air or LN2 via large tanker has the terrific advantage that pollution would not be a risk. However, shipping LN2 is just not economically feasible due to the low energy density of 570 kJ/kg. LNG has an energy density of 5.15x10^4 Btu/kg, or 5.43x10^4 kJ/kg, about 95 times that of LN2. LNG shipping by large tanker is only marginally economic even with that high energy density. Shipping LNG or hydrogen in some form also has very little risk of pollution, though carries some risk of explosive accident. It remains to be seen how much risk carrying hydrogen by tanker has because the storage technology is not yet been developed. Carrying hydrogen energy by ship might be facilitated by converting it to methanol by combining it with atmospheric carbon dioxide. Methanol should not carry much long term pollution risk either, compared to oil. It appears that energy produced by windmill for consumption in a global market should be produced directly in the form of hydrogen. For this reason research on means to convert shaft horsepower directly into hydrogen production is a key research field. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 16 03:17:43 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1GBHYkF007017; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 03:17:34 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1GBHVHI006999; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 03:17:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 03:17:31 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Best Use for Wind energy? X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: ID = 7b84137320e539ae3bcf255acd0b8dbd Reply-To: michael.foster excite.com From: "Michael Foster" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: michael.foster excite.com X-Mailer: PHP Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050216111719.91D901BCE7 xprdmailfe23.nwk.excite.com> Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 06:17:19 -0500 (EST) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57789 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mike Carrell wrote: > This is not simple. You have to capture the maximum energy from the wind > at all speeds. For the pump, it is also a matter of torque as well as > strokes/second. In principle, if the wind speed is low, you can gear down > the propellor shaft and get enough torque to compress the gas. There are > variable ratio transmissions, but these are quite inefficient. With an > electric generator and the right electronics there are various tricks you > can use to extract energy at low speeds; the system doe not stall. I use CVTs every day. While I don't do sophisticated measurements on them I notice that they don't run hot. Where else would the energy go? In other words, why would CVTs be inefficient? In any case, within reasonable limits, energy efficiency is not the issue. Overall economic efficency is. Even if electrical energy from wind turbines was used on site to drive an air liquifaction plant, the result would be a cryo-fuel that could stored, transported, and distrubuted in a manner not so different from our present petroleum economy. Oil wells, refineries, tanker trucks and gasoline stations are probably not very energy efficient either, and yet, up until recently, our economy did quite well with them. Incidentally, for those not familiar with the handling of liquid air, or in my case, LN2, it's amazing how easy it is to store and handle. The prospect of having large Dewar flasks around may seem daunting, but actually, styrofoam may be the the answer. Its's amazing how you can fill a styrofoam drink cup with LN2 and not even have the outside feel cool. One can even imagine liquid air pipelines based on plastic foam insulation. Just Chillin' M. _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 16 03:33:51 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1GBXMkF013698; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 03:33:23 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1GBXJoO013629; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 03:33:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 03:33:19 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <008601c5141b$47a67150$0600a8c0 nixlaptop> From: "Nick Palmer" To: "Vortex-L" Subject: Silicon as an energy storage medium Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 11:33:01 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0083_01C5141B.45CFB580" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57790 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0083_01C5141B.45CFB580 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This looks like a good way of "transporting" renewable energy (in this = case from hot sunny countries). Nick http://www.dbresearch.com/PROD/DBR_INTERNET_EN-PROD/PROD0000000000079095.= pdf ------=_NextPart_000_0083_01C5141B.45CFB580 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
This looks like a good way of = "transporting"=20 renewable energy (in this case from hot sunny countries).
 
Nick
 
 
http://www.dbresearch.com/PROD/DBR_INTERNET_EN-PROD/PROD0000= 000000079095.pdf
------=_NextPart_000_0083_01C5141B.45CFB580-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 16 03:34:05 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1GBXNkF013705; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 03:33:24 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1GBXLFA013639; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 03:33:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 03:33:21 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <008701c5141b$488a1a90$0600a8c0 nixlaptop> From: "Nick Palmer" To: "Vortex-L" References: <004101c513da$eb6748a0$dd017841 xptower> Subject: Re: Speculation on ZPE Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 11:03:01 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0027_01C51417.14909470" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57791 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0027_01C51417.14909470 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable R C Macaulay wrote:- <> Try looking at http://www.bluenergy.com/index.html ------=_NextPart_000_0027_01C51417.14909470 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
R C Macaulay wrote:-
<<On to the harvesting of ocean tides = and=20 currents.. thats a bridge too far. The maintenance alone kills the idea = even=20 before the costs of construction per kilowatt hour generated is added=20 up.
 
Richard>>
 
Try looking=20 at http://www.bluenergy.com/index.html
------=_NextPart_000_0027_01C51417.14909470-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 16 03:35:39 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1GBZLkF015572; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 03:35:21 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1GBZIEr015495; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 03:35:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 03:35:18 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: Shipping LN2 or liquified air X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: ID = 7b84137320e539ae3bcf255acd0b8dbd Reply-To: michael.foster excite.com From: "Michael Foster" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: michael.foster excite.com X-Mailer: PHP Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050216113500.451821BCE7 xprdmailfe23.nwk.excite.com> Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 06:35:00 -0500 (EST) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57792 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- On Wed 02/16, Horace Heffner < hheffner mtaonline.net > wrote: > Shipping liquid air or LN2 via large tanker has the terrific advantage that > pollution would not be a risk. However, shipping LN2 is just not > economically feasible due to the low energy density of 570 kJ/kg. LNG has > an energy density of 5.15x10^4 Btu/kg, or 5.43x10^4 kJ/kg, about 95 times > that of LN2. LNG shipping by large tanker is only marginally economic even > with that high energy density. 570 kJ/kg? That low, eh? What about pipeline transport? It's kind of self- pumping. M. _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 16 03:54:48 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1GBsWkF023268; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 03:54:33 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1GBsUH0023243; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 03:54:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 03:54:30 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=tRRcYWt7IaUZUbmvdThJEG9TFbzPdDuv5ifPmVzKrYBvOp0h4xmdsJTsQnNuPHXP; Message-ID: <410-22005231610542720 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Best Use for Wind energy? Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 04:54:02 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94019b0925a560e40e300dbbc32f15fb9cb350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.153 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57793 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII A little pencil work: The heat of vaporization of liquid air is 88 Btu/lb (86 Btu/lb for LN2) at 2546 Btu/hp-hr. At 25% overall thermal efficiency (~10,000 Btu/Hp-Hr) 120 lbs of LN2 would have to be carried to deliver that 1.0 Hp-Hr. LN2 at $.10/lb would cost you $12.00/Hp-Hr. :-) OTOH, 120 lbs of lead-acid storage batteries at 12 watt-hr/lb (41Btu/lb or 5,000 Btu/120 lb) at 80% efficiency can deliver 1.55 Hp-hr. About 2 Kw-Hr of wall-socket electricity will recharge the batteries for about $.25. OR: Concurrent Electrolytic Production of Hydrogen- Aqueous Hydrogen Peroxide at 50 Kw-Hr per 2 pounds Hydrogen-34 pounds Hydrogen Peroxide in 100 pounds of water (35%solution) could develop 150,000 Btu in a special-compact "steam engine" that might get up to 40% efficiency, thus deliver about 25 Hp-Hr of shaft work with about 250 pounds of on-board "fuel" storage weight Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

A little pencil work:
 
The heat of vaporization of liquid air is 88 Btu/lb (86 Btu/lb for LN2)
at 2546 Btu/hp-hr.
At 25% overall thermal efficiency (~10,000 Btu/Hp-Hr) 120 lbs of LN2 would
have to be carried to deliver that 1.0 Hp-Hr.
 
LN2 at $.10/lb would cost you $12.00/Hp-Hr.   :-)
 
OTOH, 120 lbs of lead-acid storage batteries at 12 watt-hr/lb (41Btu/lb or 5,000 Btu/120 lb)
at 80% efficiency can deliver 1.55 Hp-hr.  About 2 Kw-Hr of wall-socket electricity will recharge the
batteries for about $.25. 
 
OR:
 
Concurrent Electrolytic Production of Hydrogen- Aqueous Hydrogen Peroxide
at 50 Kw-Hr per 2 pounds Hydrogen-34 pounds Hydrogen Peroxide in 100 pounds of
water (35%solution) could develop 150,000 Btu in a special-compact  "steam engine" that
might get up to 40% efficiency, thus deliver about 25 Hp-Hr of shaft work with about
250 pounds of on-board "fuel" storage weight
 
Frederick
 
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 16 04:51:20 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1GCp9kF010664; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 04:51:09 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1GCp7nu010644; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 04:51:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 04:51:07 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=YEaVZjJ6Eazjx1Xjc1/aiWFbp+WEDQy4rg+A9D2kGpQdw6sYhGVPagNzZ/nZEmDL; Message-ID: <410-220052316115013170 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Best Use for Wind energy? Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 05:50:13 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94092c2c4a1f72efe4b4fc4b24c334b75c5350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.55 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57794 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Here is a handy psychrometric calculator that allows calculation of how many pounds of air are required at various temperatures-pressures to vaporize LN2 (86 Btu/lb heat of vaporization) etc. as well as relative humidity-dew point etc. http://www.linric.com/webpsy.htm Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

Here is a handy psychrometric calculator that allows
calculation of how many pounds of air are required at
various temperatures-pressures to vaporize LN2 (86 Btu/lb heat of vaporization) etc.
as well as relative humidity-dew point etc.
 
 
Frederick

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 16 06:07:11 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1GE6rkF018889; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 06:06:55 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1GE6lqg018769; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 06:06:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 06:06:47 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: Message-ID: <015601c51430$b609abc0$0958ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: Subject: Peter Jennings & UFOs Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 09:03:43 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0148_01C51406.69F80B70" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57795 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0148_01C51406.69F80B70 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Vorts,=20 The current issue of Newsweek has a full-page back cover ad for a two = hour special on UFOs hosted by Peter Jennings Thursday of next week.=20 Should be interesting. Jenning's doesn't do small stuff.=20 MIke Carrell ------=_NextPart_000_0148_01C51406.69F80B70 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Vorts,
 
The current issue of Newsweek has a = full-page back=20 cover ad for a two hour special on UFOs hosted by Peter Jennings = Thursday of=20 next week.
 
Should be interesting. Jenning's = doesn't do small=20 stuff.
 
MIke Carrell
------=_NextPart_000_0148_01C51406.69F80B70-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 16 07:06:36 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1GF6AkF019174; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 07:06:10 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1GF65Km019106; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 07:06:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 07:06:05 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <3rr769$oave1r mxip12a.cluster1.charter.net> X-Ironport-AV: i="3.90,89,1107752400"; d="scan'208"; a="816822331:sNHT13103820" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.12 (webedge20-101-197-20030912) From: To: CC: Subject: OT: Re: Peter Jennings & UFOs Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 15:05:25 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57796 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: "Mike Carrell" > Vorts, > > The current issue of Newsweek has a full-page back cover > ad for a two hour special on UFOs hosted by Peter > Jennings Thursday of next week. > > Should be interesting. Jenning's doesn't do small stuff. > > MIke Carrell Hi Mike, Many within the UFO community have been aware of the Jennings program for some time now. I also gather that most of them have expressed disappointment in the show's apparent lack of interest in pursuing the important issues. I was informed by one principal UFO investigator that the producers repeatedly showed no interest in interviewing controversial individuals that might have had something interesting to say on the subject. The producers of this documentary were given contact information, but apparently they refused to follow-up on these leads. Who were some of these potential interviewees? Former presidents: Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton. Of course, I could be pleasantly surprised. However at this point I'm not going to be holding my breath hoping anything of real substance will come from this "documentary". I suspect the show's ultimate intent will be to titillate the public's interest and then divert their interest in the direction of dead-ends and wild goose chases. It is likely to be nothing more than SOP. It often turns out to be more useful to look in the opposite direction from where all the hype is being focused on. Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.coom From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 16 07:17:44 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1GFHTkF026495; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 07:17:29 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1GFHPo4026461; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 07:17:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 07:17:26 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002f01c51439$cbdee100$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <004101c513da$eb6748a0$dd017841 xptower> Subject: Re: Speculation on ZPE Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 07:11:30 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: <6PtqxC.A.ZdG.FQ2ECB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57797 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "RC Macaulay" " A variation of this design is also used at Disney to produce the ultra laminar water stream effect. The required speed of action of the fuel injection may fit nicely with the interesting properties of an ejector throat when you consider what happens when you reverse the flow and redirect using check valves. In effect you have a staged ( or multistaged) "combustion" at the location and time and temperature of your choosing... very interesting..hmmm." Richard, this idea of "staged combustion" is very relevant to this ongoing thread (that's why you mentioned it, of course, but it begs for further elaboration)..... it leads to the interesting point, glossed over earlier, of using CA (cryo-air) in conjunction with a fossil fuel source as in interim measure. If we can reduce fossil fuel consumption greatly, by using a double-hybrid system, it makes a lot more sense as the first step, rather than a trying to make the giant leap of total elimination of carbon, which is a leap from a flat-footed start. That won't happen. A double hybrid, building on the Prius theme, but adding CA could happen. The main thing is... if liquefied air fuels do have a future, let's start by getting the free-enterprise system moving in that direction by providing a ready market for the alternative fuel. It is not that hard to do. There is a small segment of the auto market - dedicated eco-consumers who will pay *more,* far more, in order to pollute less - the anti-Hummers, you might say. Someone needs to get the ball rolling, similar to what California did in the eighties with its ultra-stringent pollution laws. This eventually resulted in the whole country adopting something less stringent, but still effective in lowering pollution over what it would have been if a pro-active state had not stepped in where the Feds feared to tread. This can happen again. Look at the current cutting-edge of fuel efficiency, which is the Prius which gets at least 40 MPG (my neighbor is claiming 56 MPG in his first 10,000 miles with the Prius). If you redesign it of Cryo-air, and only expand CA through the engine itself... then that is not enough, as you will need enormous fuel tanks, and a larger engine... BUT if you add a turbine to the exhaust (turbo-generator, not turbo compressor) and inject some gasoline ahead of this into the oxygen rich exhaust, then this "staged combustion" which Richard is talking about has added double synergy, in that you now have much more heat to recycle for the initial expansion. By doing it this way, you can probably bring the unit up to its present output and use half the gasoline. Maybe even less than half. It would require two tanks, one a Dewar, but there is plenty of space in the Prius as the engine is tiny - so all one really needs is the *impetus*. The impetus can even by-pass Washington and our do-nothing DoE. This could be in a single State's legislation - something along the lines of a $500 per car glutton tax applied to all SUVs, and divide that bounty among purchasers of any vehicle which gets 100 MPG.... in any state which has the political will-power to do it. Probably this would be a state with lots of untapped wind energy, a Hi-tek base, and a budding environmental movement, and "something to prove". Massa- whatever (won't try to spell that one, but Boston is its capital) would be a candidate state, as they are planning a big wind farm anyway, as would Minnesota, which is a very progressive state. This would even get Detroit into the action, hopefully. I hate to see the Japanese beat us to the punch once again. Up to now Detroit does not want to copy the Prius theme exactly (the not-invented-here syndrome)... except into an SUV... hello....Detroit... is there anybody in there?....an SUV that gets 25 MPG instead of 11 MPG is NOT the answer to solving global warming. Getting over the 100 MPG figure is a huge target to shoot at... Jones If there are any Minnesotans on vortex, or Massa-whatevers, get the ball rolling at the grass-roots level !!! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 16 07:32:59 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1GFWZkF001313; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 07:32:36 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1GFWVLY001279; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 07:32:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 07:32:31 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <003701c5143b$e3f46d80$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <004101c513da$eb6748a0$dd017841 xptower> <002f01c51439$cbdee100$d0bcfea9@jonesb9pacbell> Subject: Re: Speculation on ZPE Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 07:26:29 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57798 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I meant to add the obvious alternative to: > If you redesign it for Cryo-air, and only expand CA through > the engine itself... then that is not enough, as you will > need enormous fuel tanks, and a larger engine... BUT if you > add a turbine to the exhaust (turbo-generator, not turbo > compressor) and inject some gasoline ahead of this into the > oxygen rich exhaust, then this "staged combustion" which > Richard is talking about has added double synergy, in that > you now have much more heat to recycle for the initial > expansion. The alternative is to this is to use a smaller standard engine, or the same engine running even leaner, but with a turbo-generator attached - and inject the CA into the exhaust ahead of the generator. This gives the full 800-1 expansion ratio. You can even use the CA to cool the engine (and provide air conditioning, of course).... Let's hear a cheer for "100 MPG by 2006" Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 16 08:29:03 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1GGSjkF001253; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 08:28:46 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1GGSiEi001227; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 08:28:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 08:28:44 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002401c51444$91d20900$0100007f xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: Speculation on ZPE Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 10:27:58 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0020_01C51412.2F89BD10" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-99.2 required=4.0 tests=HTML_30_40,HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57799 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01C51412.2F89BD10 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0021_01C51412.2F89BD10" ------=_NextPart_001_0021_01C51412.2F89BD10 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankNick Palmer wrote.. try looking at Blue Energy.com. The Sea Island design back in the 1980's( proposed) looked remarkably = similar to the Blue Energy project. The Sea Island plan was scrubbed because of the cost per kilowatt/hr = produced PLUS the cost of maintenance. Anyone familar with " offshore" projects can fathom ( no pun intended) = the problems with maintenance. What barnacles? Our local State/City of Austin owned Fayette Power Plant ( FPP) operated = by the Lower Colorado River Authority ( LCRA) is an efficent model for = coal fired plants as far as cost per K/W/H produced. Economics dictate = in the real world. To change for coal is going to take more brains than = seawater. Agreed, there is energy stored in tides BUT extracting that = energy for electric power will take a " sea change" in present = conceptual designs. Richard. ------=_NextPart_001_0021_01C51412.2F89BD10 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Nick Palmer wrote.. try looking at Blue=20 Energy.com.
 
The Sea Island design back in the 1980's( = proposed)=20 looked remarkably similar to the Blue Energy project.
 
The Sea Island plan was scrubbed because of = the cost per=20 kilowatt/hr produced PLUS the cost of maintenance.
 
Anyone familar with " offshore" projects can = fathom ( no=20 pun intended) the problems with maintenance. What = barnacles?
 
Our local State/City of Austin owned = Fayette Power=20 Plant ( FPP) operated by the Lower Colorado River Authority ( LCRA) is=20 an efficent model for coal fired plants as = far as cost=20 per K/W/H produced. Economics dictate in the real world. To change for = coal is=20 going to take more brains than seawater. Agreed, there is energy stored = in tides=20 BUT extracting that energy for electric power will take a " sea change" = in=20 present conceptual designs.
 
Richard.

 

------=_NextPart_001_0021_01C51412.2F89BD10-- ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01C51412.2F89BD10 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <001f01c51444$7a1b0550$0100007f xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01C51412.2F89BD10-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 16 09:04:50 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1GH4WkF019727; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 09:04:32 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1GH4Uja019702; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 09:04:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 09:04:30 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <002f01c51449$908bb410$0100007f xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: Speculation on ZPE Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 11:03:44 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_002B_01C51417.2E4E1680" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-100.0 required=4.0 tests=HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: <-GOIf.A.yzE.d03ECB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57800 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002B_01C51417.2E4E1680 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_002C_01C51417.2E4E1680" ------=_NextPart_001_002C_01C51417.2E4E1680 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankJones wrote * impetus" . Now thats a word after my own heart. It = has been my experience that it takes 2 years to pass the talking stage = and 12 more to reach profitability in manufacturing a technical product = . Back in the early 1970's we purchased our first enonomy model for a = shop truck.. a Ford Courier with a 4 cylinder Mitsubishi motor. Not = efficent and a junk pile. Fast forward 35 years and bingo.. a state of = the art product. The point is TIME and MONEY are functions of a succcessful manufacturing = plan.. BUT.. FIRST .. it take THE PERSON that has the dream and can make = it happen. If I were a young man I would jump on the Schauberg windmill/ = cryo-fuel idea understanding it would take years to make it fly. The = task would be similar to Bert Rutran's rocket ship program. He did it = for under 30 mil. Praxair would be an ideal outfit to get a cryo-fuel = project started. They competed with Bert Rutram and have a rocket system = in development also. Speaking of rocket systems. The ram-jet and = scram-jet engine could be redesigned to combine the staged ejector theme = and reduce the weight/ fuel and multiply the thrust by 7. I wouldn't = want to be standing anywhere near the rear when it fired. There are mountains of money available. The technology exists NOW. The = need exists. The environment demands action. What is the "HOLDUP" ? The PERSON .. Where is he? Will he step forward ? = There are countless numbers of people with the technical disciplines = necessary to mount the effort. The Vortex group has a cadre of = disciplines available to contribute invaluable ideas and critique new = energy concepts. We will NOT find the PERSON in the Government. We will = not find the PUSH there either. It will come from the private sector. Passing thought. One integral component I predict will be a part of the = engines of the future will be a small , lightweightr ultra high speed = flywheel which would provide an available 200-hp additional to a = standard 40hp engine which is about all that is needed to push a = standard vehicle. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_002C_01C51417.2E4E1680 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Jones wrote * impetus" . Now thats a word after my own heart. It = has been=20 my experience that it takes 2 years to pass the talking stage and 12 = more to=20 reach profitability in manufacturing a technical product . Back in the = early=20 1970's we purchased our first enonomy model for a shop truck.. a Ford = Courier=20 with a 4 cylinder Mitsubishi motor. Not efficent and a junk pile. Fast = forward=20 35 years and bingo.. a state of the art product.
 
The point is TIME and MONEY are functions of a succcessful = manufacturing=20 plan.. BUT.. FIRST .. it take THE PERSON that has the dream and can make = it=20 happen. If I were a young man I would jump on the Schauberg windmill/ = cryo-fuel=20 idea understanding it would take years to make it fly. The task would be = similar=20 to Bert Rutran's rocket ship program. He did it for under 30 mil. = Praxair would=20 be an ideal outfit to get a cryo-fuel project started. They competed = with Bert=20 Rutram and have a rocket system in development also. Speaking of rocket = systems.=20 The ram-jet and scram-jet engine could be redesigned to combine the = staged=20 ejector theme and reduce the weight/ fuel and multiply the thrust by 7. = I=20 wouldn't want to be standing anywhere near the rear when it fired.
 
There are mountains of money available. The technology exists NOW. = The need=20 exists. The environment demands action.
What is the "HOLDUP" ? The PERSON .. Where is he? Will he step = forward ?=20 There are countless numbers of people with the technical disciplines = necessary=20 to mount the effort. The Vortex group has a cadre of disciplines = available to=20 contribute invaluable ideas and critique new energy concepts. We will = NOT find=20 the PERSON in the Government. We will not find the PUSH there either. It = will=20 come from the private sector.
 
Passing thought. One integral component I predict will be a part of = the=20 engines of the future will be a small , lightweightr ultra high speed = flywheel=20 which would provide an available 200-hp additional to a standard 40hp = engine=20 which is about all that is needed to push a standard vehicle.
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_002C_01C51417.2E4E1680-- ------=_NextPart_000_002B_01C51417.2E4E1680 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <002a01c51449$78e3f2a0$0100007f xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_002B_01C51417.2E4E1680-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 16 09:11:05 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1GHAkkF022953; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 09:10:47 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1GHAi4S022938; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 09:10:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 09:10:44 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: "Vortex" Subject: RE: Shipping LN2 or liquified air Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 12:11:41 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <20050216113500.451821BCE7 xprdmailfe23.nwk.excite.com> Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: <_REnGD.A.UmF.U63ECB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57801 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I'm not surprised. If you think about it, you're only using the phase change energy, not the chemical energy. Liquid H2 would be a better choice just looking at the lower temperature; add in the huge chemical energy and it clobbers LN. I guess LN is safer, but 20 gallons of the frozen stuff sloshing around the cabin in a crash would be only marginally better than burning H2. Fire or ice, as the old poem goes. K. -----Original Message----- From: Michael Foster [mailto:michael.foster excite.com] Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 6:35 AM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: Shipping LN2 or liquified air --- On Wed 02/16, Horace Heffner < hheffner mtaonline.net > wrote: > Shipping liquid air or LN2 via large tanker has the terrific advantage that > pollution would not be a risk. However, shipping LN2 is just not > economically feasible due to the low energy density of 570 kJ/kg. LNG has > an energy density of 5.15x10^4 Btu/kg, or 5.43x10^4 kJ/kg, about 95 times > that of LN2. LNG shipping by large tanker is only marginally economic even > with that high energy density. 570 kJ/kg? That low, eh? What about pipeline transport? It's kind of self- pumping. M. _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 16 09:12:26 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1GHBwkF023411; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 09:11:58 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1GHBuED023387; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 09:11:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 09:11:56 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Baronvolsung aol.com Message-ID: <9a.20463cad.2f44d8d4 aol.com> Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 12:11:48 EST Subject: Re: Bottomless well To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_9a.20463cad.2f44d8d4_boundary" X-Mailer: 6.0 sub 10578 Resent-Message-ID: <1tQDBB.A.TtF.b73ECB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57802 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --part1_9a.20463cad.2f44d8d4_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/15/05 6:17:49 PM Pacific Standard Time, temalloy metro.lakes.com writes: > >What hemisphere, exactly? If that include South America (Venezuela) > >it is probably true. There is also a lot of oil in Canada and > >Alaska. Of course it would cost a fortune to extract it. If he means > >oil at $500 per barrel, There's allot of oil in Michigan under the Great Lakes, but conservationists do not want the lakes to get damages by oil wells. Baron Von Volsung, www.rhfweb.com\baron, Email: www.rhfweb.com\emailform.html President Thomas D. Clark, Email: www.rhfweb.com\emailform.html, Personal Web Page: www.rhfweb.com\personal New Age Production's Inc., www.rhfweb.com\newage Star Haven Community Services, at www.rhfweb.com\sh. Radiation Health Foundation Trust at www.rhfweb.com Making a difference one person at a time Get informed. Inform others. --part1_9a.20463cad.2f44d8d4_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message=20= dated 2/15/05 6:17:49 PM Pacific Standard Time, temalloy metro.lakes.com wri= tes:


>What hemisphere, exactl= y? If that include South America (Venezuela)=20
>it is probably true. There is also a lot of oil in Canada and=20
>Alaska. Of course it would cost a fortune to extract it. If he means= =20
>oil at $500 per barrel,
There's allot of oil in Michigan under the Great Lakes, but conservation= ists do not want the lakes to get damages by oil wells.=20

Baron Von Volsung, www.rhfweb.co= m\baron, Email: www.rhf= web.com\emailform.html=20
President Thomas D. Clark, Email: www.rhfweb.com\emailform.html,=20
Personal Web Page: www.rhfweb= .com\personal=20
New Age Production's Inc., www.= rhfweb.com\newage=20
Star Haven Community Services, at w= ww.rhfweb.com\sh.=20
Radiation Health Foundation Trust at = www.rhfweb.com=20

Making a difference one person at a time=20
Get informed. Inform others.=20
--part1_9a.20463cad.2f44d8d4_boundary-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 16 09:12:30 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1GHCCkF023520; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 09:12:13 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1GHC8xW023486; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 09:12:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 09:12:08 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Baronvolsung aol.com Message-ID: Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 12:11:49 EST Subject: Re: Best Use for Wind energy? To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_e8.d0e652d.2f44d8d5_boundary" X-Mailer: 6.0 sub 10578 Resent-Message-ID: <6oFBvD.A.3uF.l73ECB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57803 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --part1_e8.d0e652d.2f44d8d5_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/15/05 5:24:18 PM Pacific Standard Time, hheffner mtaonline.net writes: > . This makes feasible many additional locations > for major wind energy generation, like Alaska. With sufficient research > and appropriate legislation, Alaska alone has the potential to provide the > US energy growth needs for generations, though it may take a commitment > similar to that of going to the moon to realize it." If we use mini-airships, blimps and balloons which have windmills and solar panels on them as well as communications equipment, then we can have windmills floating above every city to generate power, and to be used as a local low earth orbit satellite communications system. Moveable blimp windmills can avoid weather damages also. A simple power cable can connect the blimb to a power station to transfer the power. Baron Von Volsung, www.rhfweb.com\baron, Email: www.rhfweb.com\emailform.html President Thomas D. Clark, Email: www.rhfweb.com\emailform.html, Personal Web Page: www.rhfweb.com\personal New Age Production's Inc., www.rhfweb.com\newage Star Haven Community Services, at www.rhfweb.com\sh. Radiation Health Foundation Trust at www.rhfweb.com Making a difference one person at a time Get informed. Inform others. --part1_e8.d0e652d.2f44d8d5_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message=20= dated 2/15/05 5:24:18 PM Pacific Standard Time, hheffner mtaonline.net write= s:


.  This makes feasible= many additional locations
for major wind energy generation, like Alaska.  With sufficient res= earch
and appropriate legislation, Alaska alone has the potential to provide t= he
US energy growth needs for generations, though it may take a commitment
similar to that of going to the moon to realize it."
If we use mini-airships, blimps and balloons which have windmills and so= lar panels on them as well as communications equipment, then we can have win= dmills floating above every city to generate power, and to be used as a loca= l low earth orbit satellite communications system.  Moveable blimp wind= mills can avoid weather damages also.  A simple power cable can connect= the blimb to a power station to transfer the power.  

Baron Von Volsung, www.rhfweb.co= m\baron, Email: www.rhf= web.com\emailform.html=20
President Thomas D. Clark, Email: www.rhfweb.com\emailform.html,=20
Personal Web Page: www.rhfweb= .com\personal=20
New Age Production's Inc., www.= rhfweb.com\newage=20
Star Haven Community Services, at w= ww.rhfweb.com\sh.=20
Radiation Health Foundation Trust at = www.rhfweb.com=20

Making a difference one person at a time=20
Get informed. Inform others.=20
--part1_e8.d0e652d.2f44d8d5_boundary-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 16 10:14:09 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1GIDlT9000579; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 10:13:47 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1GICOg1032587; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 10:12:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 10:12:24 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <007c01c51452$3a21e1e0$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <20050216113500.451821BCE7 xprdmailfe23.nwk.excite.com> Subject: Re: Shipping LN2 or liquified air Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 10:06:23 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57804 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michael Foster writes, > 570 kJ/kg? That low, eh? OK keep in mind the apples-to-apples comparisons. I would seem that heating energy content becomes a relatively unimportant crtierion, indeed misleading, for comparison in a pure expansion situation (so long as you cross over the barrier of supplying the heat of vaproization)... as you are now talking about supplying angular momentum (to a rotor) through isothermal gas velocity alone, and not through a temperature differential being required to supply the gas velocity as in a Carnot heat engine. With CA, only the "manufacturing side" is Carnot limited. In fact, when using CA as a "fuel" there is a net temperature gain in the gas, not a drop - consequently isothermal efficiency actually *underestimates* real efficiency. First one must realize that after the fuel is made, we are no longer bound by Carnot, per se, at least in the same way that a heat engine is, because the heat-sink situation is reversed. In effect, we are recoverying the 3000 psi we put into the fuel as part of the manufacturing process, and doing this WITHOUT the need for intrinsic heat (OK ambient heat is needed but no need for "real" heat) and we are on the Brayton cycle. That is how your 85% isothermal efficiency comes about vs 20% Carnot efficiency for gasoline. But the comparison is even more skewed when we neglect the "effective energy" content of a pre-pressurized oxidizer, such as oxygen. A large fraction of the gross energy of an ICE is used to raise the compression ratio of air to an efficient level. This is FREE if you combine CA with a normal heat engine. There is *zero* reason to use LN itself in an advanced hybrid engine, and every reason to use CA (cryo-air), because of the capability for staged combustion, referred to earlier. When you figure in the added reversed-Carnot boost of an 800-1 expansion ratio, then CA can easily double the energy content available in gasoline. You can look at it as doubling the Carnot efficiency if you want to, or as adding a non-Carnot component. That is the real value of an oxygen cryo-fuel. It's so-called "energy content" alone can be very misleading at the bottom line. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 16 10:34:25 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1GIY0i0009992; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 10:34:00 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1GIXan7009709; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 10:33:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 10:33:36 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 09:32:58 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: RE: Shipping LN2 or liquified air Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57805 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 6:35 AM 2/16/5, Michael Foster wrote: > --- On Wed 02/16, Horace Heffner < hheffner mtaonline.net > wrote: >> Shipping liquid air or LN2 via large tanker has the terrific advantage that >> pollution would not be a risk. However, shipping LN2 is just not >> economically feasible due to the low energy density of 570 kJ/kg. LNG has >> an energy density of 5.15x10^4 Btu/kg, or 5.43x10^4 kJ/kg, about 95 times >> that of LN2. LNG shipping by large tanker is only marginally economic even >> with that high energy density. > >570 kJ/kg? That low, eh? What about pipeline transport? It's kind of self- >pumping. Same problem. Methane is "kind of" self-pumping too - the jet engine compressors that run gas pipelines use methane as fuel. A significant portion of the cost of gas is transport. Transporting something with 5 percent of the Btu content simply can not be economical in comparison when long distances are involved. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 16 10:40:59 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1GIehi0017359; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 10:40:43 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1GIedB7017304; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 10:40:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 10:40:39 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 09:40:27 -0900 To: fjsparber earthlink.net, "vortex-l" From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Best Use for Wind energy? Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57806 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 4:54 AM 2/16/5, Frederick Sparber wrote: >A little pencil work: > >The heat of vaporization of liquid air is 88 Btu/lb (86 Btu/lb for LN2) >at 2546 Btu/hp-hr. >At 25% overall thermal efficiency (~10,000 Btu/Hp-Hr) 120 lbs of LN2 would >have to be carried to deliver that 1.0 Hp-Hr. > >LN2 at $.10/lb would cost you $12.00/Hp-Hr. :-) LN2 is not very good, but it is (wow! there is an earthquake going on right now! Feels like a 4 or 5 magnetude) a little better than that. Only 35 percent, about 200 kJ/kg = 88 Btu/lb is heat of vaporization, the rest of the 570 kJ/kg is from gas expansion which can be captured by turbine. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 16 10:53:05 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1GIqgi0023757; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 10:52:43 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1GIqagm023694; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 10:52:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 10:52:36 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 09:52:24 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Shipping LN2 or liquified air Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57807 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:06 AM 2/16/5, Jones Beene wrote: >It's so-called "energy content" alone can be very >misleading at the bottom line. > >Jones You will find that 570 kJ/kg, is close to the bottom line. Assuming conservation of energy, the high expansion ratio merely extracts the 370 kJ/kg energy available from gas expansion. Further, when dumped directly into an ICE, the cold temperature *reduces* the thermal expansion obtained by burning the fuel. If injecting liquid air into an engine were economical, engines should include an air liquifaction plant. They don't because it is more economical to simply gain a higher compression ratio, and retain the compression heat, as diesel's do. (Gee a little aftershock just occurred. Things are lively here today!) Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 16 11:37:34 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1GJbMi0012095; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 11:37:22 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1GJbFrN012020; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 11:37:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 11:37:15 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: <625698a7-105d-4190-89b6-a5fabd911c04> Message-ID: <018101c5145e$e5b56980$0958ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <3rr769$oave1r mxip12a.cluster1.charter.net> Subject: Re: Re: Peter Jennings & UFOs Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 14:37:01 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57808 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Steve, > It is likely to be nothing more than SOP. It often turns out to be more useful to look in the opposite direction from where all the hype is being focused on. All too true, disinformation at large. Regards, Mike From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 16 11:45:56 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1GJjVi0015928; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 11:45:31 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1GJjQJE015889; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 11:45:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 11:45:27 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=AVUEym8/qVIgzfqf8t6TLv81tIu4JIyqCqHXyPryPk3hJRQkg62yD8aKuByYIgm2WZp23AjkSJnoBVGFbItVy6MtIVxf+rgamoqfDhIpE/oAewqRlLH5wFk7g5ZtanPN1dMgOhLJYMwmUi0fc4+qdRq9DZN8odJMrn2sSlTP7Co= ; Message-ID: <20050216194516.637.qmail web51705.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 11:45:16 -0800 (PST) From: Terry Blanton Subject: NASA: Evidence of Life on Mars To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1286101608-1108583116=:98741" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57809 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-1286101608-1108583116=:98741 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii There, they finally said it: http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/mars_life_050216.html __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? 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http://mail.yahoo.com --0-1286101608-1108583116=:98741-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 16 12:31:37 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1GKVHi0011624; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 12:31:17 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1GKVB8w011571; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 12:31:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 12:31:11 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 11:30:59 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: CO2 extraction Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57810 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: A critical technology needing developent is economical CO2 extraction from the atmosphere or seawater. If this is accomplished then the energy transport/storage problem for a hydrogen economy is solved. We can convert to a combined hydrogen/methane economy. Hydrogen can be used in the manner methane is now, and methanol can replace oil distillates for vehicle fuel. Methanol can also be used to drive fuel cells when combined with a steam forming process at 200 C: CH2OH + H2O -> CO2 + 2H2 Methanol is formed from CO or CO2 using a copper catalystat 750 PSI and 245 C: 3H2 + CO2 -> CH3OH + H2O 2H2 + CO -> CH3+OH Methanol has a high octane rating, so makes for efficient ICE use. Vehicles running on pure methanol can have much lower lower NOx, hydrocarbon and CO emissions than those run on gasoline. Methanol has good energy densities of 6.3 kWh/kg, 4.99 kWh/liter, 22,680 kJ/kg, about half that of gasoline. Conversion of existing vehicles is feasible, but would be much easier on vehicles designed for future conversion to methanol use. For example, gas tank corrosion and dissolving of some plastics can be a problem. A vehicle designed for eventual methanol conversion, or even dual use, would not have these problems. Methanol can also be formed form natural gas and in fact this is economically advantageous over LNG for long shipping trades. Methanol can also be reformed at the delivery end into a natural gas replacement or hydrogen. Another potential transport mechanism is a solid: CaH2. It has an energy density of 3.75 kWh/kg, 6.38 kWh/liter, 13,500 kJ/kg. It can be used to drive a fuel cell by simply combining it with water: CaH2 + H2O -> Ca(OH)2 + 2H2 Sounds a bit like miner's carbide. The problems with CaH2 are recycling the Ca(OH)2, and the fact it is a solid. Methanol seems to provide an immediate answer to the transport and storage problem, provided a cheap form of CO2 recycling (not using already sequestered carbon) is available. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 16 12:39:50 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1GKdai0016073; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 12:39:36 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1GKdXSw016057; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 12:39:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 12:39:33 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050216151329.02a25c38 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 15:34:40 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Best Use for Wind energy? In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57811 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Baronvolsung aol.com wrote: >If we use mini-airships, blimps and balloons which have windmills and >solar panels on them as well as communications equipment, then we can have >windmills floating above every city to generate power . . . As I pointed out before, there are four problems with this plan: 1. You would have to tether them to the earth. Otherwise the wind would simply blow them away. The wind turbine would not turn; it would be blown along with the balloon, in still air. There is presently no material capable of tethering a high-altitude airship or blimp to the ground. Any rope or cable long enough to hold an airship will be too heavy for the airship to lift. (WWII barrage balloons were moored anywhere from 4,500 to 15,000 feet, and they had no extra payload capacity; 15,000 feet was the highest the balloon could lift a long cable.) We might develop carbon filament material light enough to tether a balloon, but if we do we should probably use it to build tall towers or a space elevator instead. 2. Airships, blimps and balloons have small payloads. You could put telecommunications equipment on board, but solar cells or windmills would be far too heavy to lift. 3. There is no practical way to transmit the energy to earth. 4. Airships, blimps and balloons are extremely fragile. Zeppelins such as the Hindenburg were blown to pieces by moderate storms. See, for example, the history of the US Naval airships Shenandoah and Los Angeles. Perhaps modern ones would be somewhat stronger, but they would never survive a winter storm, and winter is when there is the most wind and the greatest need for energy. (For that matter, conventional wind turbines must be feathered during heavy storms, and nuclear power reactors cooled by ocean water sometimes have to shut down during storms at sea.) - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 16 12:52:33 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1GKqNi0020688; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 12:52:23 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1GKqMkJ020680; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 12:52:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 12:52:22 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 11:52:14 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: CO2 extraction Resent-Message-ID: <4yCSz.A._CF.FK7ECB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57812 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Slight typo correction: Methanol is formed from CO or CO2 using a copper catalystat 750 PSI and 245 C: 3H2 + CO2 -> CH3OH + H2O 2H2 + CO -> CH3OH Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 16 13:05:48 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1GL5Xi0025812; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 13:05:34 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1GL5VBK025798; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 13:05:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 13:05:31 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <00f701c5146a$6b343680$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: Subject: Re: Shipping LN2 or liquified air Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 12:59:34 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57813 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace, > You will find that 570 kJ/kg, is close to the bottom line. Assuming > conservation of energy, the high expansion ratio merely extracts the 370 > kJ/kg energy available from gas expansion. I disagree, as do the the researchers of the report cited yesterday and others who are actively working on this. I hope to get around to typing in some of their findings later today. You are trying to pigeon-hole this into existing heat engine technology. It won't fit. This is not a technology that normal automotive thermodynamics and Carnot cycles explains very well. It is a different animal. > Further, when dumped directly into an ICE, the cold temperature *reduces* the thermal expansion obtained by burning the fuel. Again, VERY misleading !! Reduces the thermal expansion only on the fuel side but GREATLY increases its own expansion parameters so that there is a HUGE net gain. The effective psi in an ICE is far less on average than the effective psi of the liquid fuel (~3000 psi) > If injecting liquid air into an engine were economical, engines should > include an air liquifaction plant. They don't because it is more > economical to simply gain a higher compression ratio, and retain the > compression heat, as diesel's do. Had gasoline prices been this high a decade ago, we would probably already have liquid-air hybrids on the road today, but not with the cryo-air produced aboard the vehicle itself- that is very wasteful. A Dewar tank is sufficient for CA produced elsewhere, ideally using wind energy - at least that is my contention until good evidence arrives that this is not the best use for wind energy. Why do you think that all of the top drag racers inject liquid nitrous into their engines, if the boost from that is not very substantial and was instead dependent on BTU content which is neglible in nitrous? If it were a thermodynamic or BTU thing they would inject methane or butane instead, but only cold liquid nitrous oxide gives that huge boost. > (Gee a little aftershock just occurred. Things are lively here today!) Now that is something I can sympathize with, living in earthquake country. Let's hope that the stimulus of your quakes is not the Indonesian quake, and that this is somehow moving eastward in resonance. Regards, Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 16 13:53:52 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1GLr3i0015662; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 13:53:03 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1GLqxtv015605; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 13:52:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 13:52:59 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 12:52:46 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Shipping LN2 or liquified air Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57814 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:59 PM 2/16/5, Jones Beene wrote: >Horace, > >> You will find that 570 kJ/kg, is close to the bottom line. >Assuming >> conservation of energy, the high expansion ratio merely >extracts the 370 >> kJ/kg energy available from gas expansion. > >I disagree, as do the the researchers of the report cited >yesterday and others who are actively working on this. I >hope to get around to typing in some of their findings later >today. You are trying to pigeon-hole this into existing heat >engine technology. It won't fit. I'm not trying - conservation of energy fits any technology ALL BY ITSELF, unless that technology provides free energy. Liquified air or LN2 can not compete in a global market where transport and storage are key. The economics of these things are tied to energy density. Better to use much higher density alternatives, which clearly are already available. On second thought, I take that back. I CAN be very trying! It's just part of my old curmudgeon's temperament. 8^) Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 16 13:54:07 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1GLrCi0015730; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 13:53:12 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1GLr7Df015698; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 13:53:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 13:53:07 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 12:52:49 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: NASA: Evidence of Life on Mars Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57815 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:45 AM 2/16/5, Terry Blanton wrote: >There, they finally said it: > >http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/mars_life_050216.html It's about time. However, they seem to be barking up the wrong tree, or is that down the wrong hole? Unless there is substantial vulcanism, or indigenous radiactivity, water based life is not going to live deep. It is too cold. Frozen critters don't metabolize well. Only the surface warms up. Water vapor does percolate to the shallow surface in sunshine. At least we saw evidence of what appeared to be that in the photos. Water based life must be right on top. No surprise there, the "canals" have been seasonally advancing and retreating for decades. Better to look for examples above the arctic circle than in Spain. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 16 13:57:27 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1GLv6B3017929; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 13:57:10 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1GLv3Rj017899; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 13:57:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 13:57:03 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Shipping LN2 or liquified air X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: ID = 909b8a8ff0cae19159d456a4b333f05c Reply-To: michael.foster excite.com From: "Michael Foster" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: michael.foster excite.com X-Mailer: PHP Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050216215650.A3C0E3980 xprdmailfe9.nwk.excite.com> Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 16:56:50 -0500 (EST) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57816 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- On Wed 02/16, Jones Beene < jonesb9 pacbell.net > wrote: > Had gasoline prices been this high a decade ago, we would > probably already have liquid-air hybrids on the road today, > but not with the cryo-air produced aboard the vehicle > itself- that is very wasteful. A Dewar tank is sufficient > for CA produced elsewhere, ideally using wind energy - at > least that is my contention until good evidence arrives that > this is not the best use for wind energy. Inflation adjusted, gasoline prices were higher in the 80s. However, that's neither here nor there. I think world events are making this a more urgent issue. What I would like to know, if you can tell us, what is the actual available energy in a kg of liquid air used in a piston engine? Obviously, it could be a turbine engine as well, but how much energy do we get? By the way Keith, I can speak from personal experience that a 20 gallon LN2 spill is no big deal. Before I acquired cryo-pumps and turbomolecular pumps I use to use a lot of LN2 and I'm sorry to report I was quite careless with it. The only real danger in a confined space is that it can drive away all the available oxygen and you can pass out or die from oxygen deprivation. It's not unpleasant either. You're body's suffocation response is from build up of CO2 rather than lack of oxygen. I'd much rather that than than burning in a hydrogen fire. I don't know if liquid air has the same composition as gaseous air, but if it does, even that danger won't exist. M. _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 16 14:14:42 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1GMEBB3028081; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 14:14:15 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1GME7uj028046; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 14:14:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 14:14:07 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050216170406.02a955d0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 17:13:48 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Shipping LN2 or liquified air In-Reply-To: <20050216215650.A3C0E3980 xprdmailfe9.nwk.excite.com> References: <20050216215650.A3C0E3980 xprdmailfe9.nwk.excite.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_1551640==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: <0e8C7C.A.H2G.vW8ECB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57817 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_1551640==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Michael Foster wrote: >I don't know if liquid air has the same >composition as gaseous air, but if it does, even that danger >won't exist. Even if the composition is somewhat different it would not be toxic. During the short time it takes to escape from an accident people can breathe all kinds of things, such as pure oxygen, without ill-effects. Actually LH has a very good safety record. LNG ships have been hauling vast quantities of liquefied gas for decades without a first-world accident as far as I know. There was an explosion in Algeria. See: http://www.ch-iv.com/lng/lngfact.htm http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2005/01/22/potential_of_catastrophic_fire_from_terrorist_attack_worries_lng_opponents/ - Jed --=====================_1551640==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Michael Foster wrote:

I don't know if liquid air has the same
composition as gaseous air, but if it does, even that danger
won't exist.

Even if the composition is somewhat different it would not be toxic. During the short time it takes to escape from an accident people can breathe all kinds of things, such as pure oxygen, without ill-effects.

Actually LH has a very good safety record.

LNG ships have been hauling vast quantities of liquefied gas for decades without a first-world accident as far as I know. There was an explosion in Algeria. See:

http://www.ch-iv.com/lng/lngfact.htm

 http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2005/01/22/potential_of_catastrophic_fire_from_terrorist_attack_worries_lng_opponents/

- Jed
--=====================_1551640==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 16 14:38:57 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1GMcfB3007618; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 14:38:42 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1GMcdvc007591; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 14:38:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 14:38:39 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <012101c51477$6cf841c0$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: Subject: Re: Shipping LN2 or liquified air Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 14:32:39 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: <7n7YmD.A.h2B.vt8ECB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57818 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace > >> You will find that 570 kJ/kg, is close to the bottom line. Assuming conservation of energy, > >I disagree, as do the researchers of the report cited > >yesterday and others who are actively working on this. I > >hope to get around to typing in some of their findings later > >today. You are trying to pigeon-hole this into existing heat > >engine technology. It won't fit. > I'm not trying - conservation of energy fits any technology ALL BY ITSELF unless that technology provides free energy. Again, Horace, you are invoking 'conservation of energy' where it does not apply. Total energy content can include much more than *combustion* energy (chemical energy), or oxidation potentials, etc. Can't you see that? If you were to set up an experiment, like at they did at Sandia, where they use a bunch of brittle ceramic blades set in circular arrays, and then they fracture the center piece by using say one kJ or energy... BUT this small explosion sets up a shock wave from one mechanical failure, and then works it way quickly out to the circumference, releasing 1000 kJ of net energy, then is energy conserved? The answer is yes, it is conserved because, even though we had ZERO net energy, so-called, at the start - in the fully oxidized ceramic - we did not account for the *strain energy* held in the brittle material. This simply does not show up in a kJ/kg accounting of chemical energy. The strain energy involved in breaking hydrogen bonds of solids like clathrates is on a par with chemical energy found in combustion, but it is NEVER accounted for in BTUs because that figure is based solely on chemical energy.... Now do you get it? Jones Not to mention, the technology I am describing might indeed provide some free energy via the Casimir force (or the beta-aether) which is arguably the force holding all of those stiff hydrogen bonds in place in a clathrate lattice which has a "particulate" of a certain size, which is the size where the Casimir is optimized. My hypothesis is that this exact size in known to science, and is what we call the *Forster radius.* If we can maintain ice or clathrate particulates at this exact size, then their brittle mechanical failure, coincident with a chemical explosion, will indeed provide what you are calling an apparent violation of conservation of energy. The energy is there, however, from the start but it is energy which we are not used to accounting for in thermodynamics. More later... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 16 14:58:32 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1GMwGB3015407; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 14:58:17 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1GMwFqQ015396; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 14:58:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 14:58:15 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <012e01c5147a$28cfcd80$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <20050216215650.A3C0E3980 xprdmailfe9.nwk.excite.com> Subject: Re: Shipping LN2 or liquified air Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 14:52:13 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57819 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michael > What I would like to know, if you can tell us, what is the > actual available energy in a kg of liquid air used in a piston > engine? I think what you would really want to know is what is the maximum energy content form an engineered liquid, based on air, including the strain energy of particulates which can be easily included in that mix, if such could be accounted for now, correct? This is difficult to pin down, but never the shrinking ultraviolet, I will try. >From what one can guestimate, using the failure of ocean clathrates as a model, and the documented explosions of ice floes, and extending this to the optimum example of perhaps 10% clathrate (or even ice) held in liquid air at the optimum particulate size, I would guess it is 4-5 MJ/kg. This does not sound like much against gasoline at 40 MJ/kg but remember... ....with gasoline combustion your are working against Mr. Carnot and can get only 20-25% of that net, whereas working with explosive mechanical failure, you are working with isothermal efficiency, and can get as much as 85% of that.... in theory. Tell you what. Give me a 1% of the hot fusion budget for next year and I will prove it beyond all reasonable doubt by presenting an actual demonstration engine which will run on CA and gasoline but with an "apparent" Carnot efficiency, if you only consider only the gasoline as fuel, of 60%... guaranteed... ;-) Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 16 16:50:18 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1H0o3B3006838; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 16:50:03 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1H0o0CE006788; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 16:50:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 16:50:00 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 15:49:46 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Shipping LN2 or liquified air Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57820 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 2:32 PM 2/16/5, Jones Beene wrote: >Horace > >> >> You will find that 570 kJ/kg, is close to the bottom >line. Assuming conservation of energy, > >> >I disagree, as do the researchers of the report cited >> >yesterday and others who are actively working on this. I >> >hope to get around to typing in some of their findings >later >> >today. You are trying to pigeon-hole this into existing >heat >> >engine technology. It won't fit. > >> I'm not trying - conservation of energy fits any >technology ALL BY ITSELF unless that technology provides >free energy. > >Again, Horace, you are invoking 'conservation of energy' >where it does not apply. Total energy content can include >much more than *combustion* energy (chemical energy), or >oxidation potentials, etc. Can't you see that? Please note that *none* of the 570 kJ/kg is *chemical* energy. Yes, you can obtain more chemical energy by burning fuel with the liquified air. The problem is what if any *extra* energy do you get vs. expanding the liquified air using an LNG motor and then burning the air with the fuel in an ordinary ICE, considering the energy cost of the liquified air in the balance. As far as I can see, neither liquified air nor LN2 can be a significant player in the *global* energy market because the Btu content is miniscule. More importantly, I think it is actually possible, if focus can be maintained, to come up with a practical means to supply *all* the world's energy needs, reduce pollution, and reduce atmospheric CO2. This can be accomlished using existing sized windmill technology, with some adaptations for very high wind areas. The major problems to be solved are: 1. Optimization of windfarm design to supply power for electrolysis occuring at or near the wind farm. 2. Cost effective methods of obtaining CO2 from a renewable resource. 3. Hydrogen pipeline transmission and distribution system design and operation engineering and testing. 4. Engineering of large hydrogen to methanol plants. 5. Engineering with respect to methanol storage and utilization, especially with respect to automobile conversion, large storage facilites and transport by ship. 6. Engineering of off-distribution-system heating sytems conversion from heating oil or propane to methanol, or to electric heat. 7. Engineering of conversion of gas devices to hydrogen or methanol. 8. Implimentation, citing, bureaucratic hurdle, and financing strategies. Of the above, it seems to me that only number 2. might go beyond fundamental engineering and applied research. It appears to me that only number 2. could represent a major technical stumbling block. This is really where practical efforts could pay off big time. Political and bureaucratic stumbling blocks are another thing altogether. Implementation of the above approach should be able to nicely dovetail with existing energy supplies, provide a realistic means to obtain a future hydrogen economy, and afford a reasonable and affordable migration path. If you say COE doesn't apply to liquified air systems then the ball is entirely in your court. You are off into a way different discussion. It is up to *you* to prove your assertion either theoretically or experimentally. You are way off the deep end there and I feel no need to respond to that assertion because it is way beyond even the realm of ordinary speculation. If you have faith in that notion keep on going for it, it might pan out. Meanwhile I'll continue looking at wind power from a more conventional viewpoint. It seems to me that great things might be possible from wind power with only basic engineering. There is plenty of room for new energy sources, like CF, ZPE, etc., but my interest at this moment is the conventional. So... carry on and best of luck on your effort. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 16 17:45:22 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1H1ihB3030213; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 17:44:44 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1H1ieTj030186; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 17:44:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 17:44:40 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <089b01c51491$67771cc0$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: Subject: Re: Shipping LN2 or liquified air Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 17:38:38 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57821 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace > If you say COE doesn't apply to liquified air systems then the ball is > entirely in your court. You are off into a way different discussion. It > is up to *you* to prove your assertion either theoretically or > experimentally. It is the same discussion, and COE can (or nor) apply IF all the relevant variables are known in advance. What I am saying is that a *full energy accounting* is seldom included in the case of certain brittle materials, where structural strain is a "hidden" feature of the material. Ice and clathrates are such materials. This is not wild conjecture. I have quoted this reference a number of times. For me, it demosnatrates that Ice becomes explosive enough to create soft x-rays when triggered by external pressure, and can be considered many times more explosive than gasoline, pound for pound, in certain very narrow circumstances. The question is NOT is this proven by experiment, it is proven - the only question remaining is: is it engineerable for use in energy applications. Can it happen repeatedly in a maximized situation using a particulate of ice in an internal combustion engine, instead of at the focus of enormous pressures in ice floes - that is the real question. I know of no circumstance where gasoline combustion creates x-rays. The threshold regime for ice explosiveness is known, and is within the range of mechanical implementation in an internal combustion engine, but it would probably require much more high pressure containment than ususal. See "Explosive Ice Instability," E. G. Fateev. His interest in this is cosmological and he does not consider terrestrial applications. http://www.udman.ru/sotrud/fat/Stat/432.pdf Abstract: "Explosive Ice Instability" E. G. Fateev Institute of Applied Mechanics, Russian Academy of Sciences, Received January 25, 2001; Explosive ice instability under strong uniaxial compression at high pressures is observed over a wide temperature range from 244 K down to 100 K. The corresponding dependence of the instability critical pressure on temperature is found to display features with minima in the regions of ice phase transitions. It is assumed that this dependence correlates with the corresponding temperature dependence of hydrogen bond strength in ice. The phase transitions in ice may result in an additional (by ~50-70%) decrease in the mechanical stability of ice. Regards, Jones BTW this explosive instability of another candidate material N2O is what could already be happening when nitrous oxide is used in race cars, as I suggested in another post. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 16 20:12:37 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1H4CQ8x014657; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 20:12:26 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1H4CMbo014631; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 20:12:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 20:12:22 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001c01c514a7$623c7370$6400a8c0 VINCE> From: "Vince Cockeram" To: References: Subject: Re: Best Use for Wind energy? Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 20:15:58 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57822 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Horace Heffner" To: ; "vortex-l" Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 10:40 AM Subject: Re: Best Use for Wind energy? >> snip<< > (wow! there is an earthquake going on right > now! Feels like a 4 or 5 magnetude) a little better than that. . . . > .>>snip<<. > Horace Heffner > http://www.iris.edu/seismon/ Regards, Vince From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 16 21:42:56 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1H5gVTI001944; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 21:42:32 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1H5gQmm001898; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 21:42:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 21:42:26 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 20:42:14 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: CO2 Harvesting Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57823 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Some miscellaneous thoughts about CO2 harvesting and other hydrogen energy transporting issues follow. The arctic and antarctic may be good places to harvest CO2 directly from the atmosphere. Lots of wind in places there, and (seasonally) temperatures almost low enough to condense CO2 directly from the atmosphere. CO2 solidifies at -72.5 deg. C., or -98.5 deg. F. CO2 in this solid dry ice form could be stored in cold storage for use in warmer months. For -56.6 at 5.2 atm. The atmosphere is only 0.05 percent CO2 by weight, 0.03 percent by volume This means about 3300 m^3 has to be passed through a CO2 condenser to obtain a single m^3 of CO2. If the CO2 is to be gassified for pipeline transport then all the cooling/heating can be accomplished mostly by heat exchange, but the process is still expensive due to the volumes involved. An alternative, especially in warm weather, might be to use CO2 solvents or adsorbers (e.g. triethylene glycol, propylene carbonate, Diglycolamine, monoethylamine or diethanolamine) to scrub the CO2 out of the air. Again a large air flow must be sustained, and energy is required to release the CO2 once dissolved or adsorbed. Another approach might be to mine the ocean or ocean floor for carbonaceous material. This would be bad in the sense that the CO2 is already sequestered, but balance could be obtained by fertilizing the ocean with iron in the mined areas in order to increase the rate of carbon sequestration. Recently sequestered carbon obtained by farming is really a renewable resource. Growing carbon rich crops is an angle, but it depletes the soil and requires ammonia based furtilizers, which are also hydrogen products, but products that energy from windmills could readily help produce. There is plenty of nitrogen to be had from the atmosphere, which can be combined with hydrogen to make ammonia. This then points out a possible alternative method of shipping hydrogen. Ammonia (NH3) can be produced at a windfarm and transported by tanker ship to a destination where a nitrogen stripping plant is used to produce the hydrogen. This would get the hydrogen to distant world markets, and would aid in the production of furtilizers there. Once the nitrogen is stripped and returned to the atmosphere, the hydrogen can be piped or used directly for energy production. There is a much higher danger associated with ammonia vs methanol, due to its toxicity, but this can probably safely be managed for tanker ships unloading at the end of long unloading piers. The problem remaining then is the energy cost of nitrogen stripping from the ammonia when hydrogen is needed. Perhaps ammonia can be used to make a useful liquid fuel, like hydrazine, though that would not be a safe choice. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 16 21:43:04 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1H5ggTI002033; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 21:42:42 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1H5ga1u001987; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 21:42:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 21:42:36 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 20:42:19 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Shipping LN2 or liquified air Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57824 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I really did not want to get trolled into this red herring issue, but here's a brief response anyway. At 5:38 PM 2/16/5, Jones Beene wrote: >It is the same discussion, and COE can (or nor) apply IF all >the relevant variables are known in advance. What I am >saying is that a *full energy accounting* is seldom included >in the case of certain brittle materials, where structural >strain is a "hidden" feature of the material. Ice and >clathrates are such materials. This is not wild conjecture. Of course it is. Your arguments lack either meaningful quantification or experimental proof of a useful method or device. > >I have quoted this reference a number of times. So? Your whimsical interpretation is what is in question. >For me, it >demosnatrates that Ice becomes explosive enough to create >soft x-rays when triggered by external pressure, and can be >considered many times more explosive than gasoline, pound >for pound, in certain very narrow circumstances. Producing x-rays does not mean a *subtance* is more explosive than gasoline. The problem is producing a high density of high energy events and there is no indication that can be achieved. Similar events occur when metal crystals fracture. It does not mean that metals are any more explosive than their chemical potential energy permits. >The >question is NOT is this proven by experiment, it is proven - No, no method of producing free energy is proven at all. In fact, nothing of practical use is shown that I can see. Energy concentration or focusing is not energy production. >the only question remaining is: is it engineerable for use >in energy applications. Can it happen repeatedly in a >maximized situation using a particulate of ice in an >internal combustion engine, instead of at the focus of >enormous pressures in ice floes - that is the real question. Like I said, if you feel that is true go for it. I have other things I would much rather discuss. I will soon return to ignoring highly speculative posts on this issue. > >I know of no circumstance where gasoline combustion creates >x-rays. So what? You need to figure out or experimetnally determine what energy has to go into the process, what energy is lost to inefficiencies, and what energy is delivered. I don't see any sign you are even close todoing so. This is all just wild speculation, and utterly irrelevant to the material I posted. I really do not want to discuss this because it is so whimsical and I would like prefer to spend time doing something productive. I don't have a lot of time right now. >The threshold regime for ice explosiveness is known, >and is within the range of mechanical implementation in an >internal combustion engine, but it would probably require >much more high pressure containment than ususal. See >"Explosive Ice Instability," E. G. Fateev. His interest in >this is cosmological and he does not consider terrestrial >applications. >http://www.udman.ru/sotrud/fat/Stat/432.pdf > >Abstract: "Explosive Ice Instability" E. G. Fateev >Institute of Applied Mechanics, Russian Academy of Sciences, >Received January 25, 2001; > >Explosive ice instability under strong uniaxial compression >at high pressures is observed over a wide temperature range >from 244 K down to 100 K. The corresponding dependence of >the instability critical pressure on temperature is found to >display features with minima in the regions of ice phase >transitions. It is assumed that this dependence correlates >with the corresponding temperature dependence of hydrogen >bond strength in ice. The phase transitions in ice may >result in an additional (by ~50-70%) decrease in the >mechanical stability of ice. So what? > >Regards, > >Jones > >BTW this explosive instability of another candidate material >N2O is what could already be happening when nitrous oxide is >used in race cars, as I suggested in another post. Again so what? Do you have any theoretical (quantitative) evidence or experimental evidence that N2O provides an over unity reaction? None of this strikes me as relevant to the fact that neither liquified air nor LN2 have an energy density useful for long range transport or long term storage. Sure you might be able to power some locally supplied vehicles, but the approach is relatively useless if the meaningful world supply problems are solved. Why not focus on the big problems? CF can cure that, as might hot fusion, but when? Thise things are very interesting and worthwhile (some folks think) but not expected to accomplish anthing world shaking in the near future. There is a good possibility wind, solar, and other renewable approaches can be used together to eliminate global warming, pollution and possibly even water shortages and wars, even in the next 20 years. If CF pans out, all the better, but delivery of quads of energy will undoubtedly take a while. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 17 05:17:24 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1HDH5TI005079; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 05:17:07 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1HDH3rw005047; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 05:17:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 05:17:03 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=eYIxZp3gt/hjpX7guWzqc+xU2YjqVPb+ZY19BwhhGk2tBGv2JM+KY1rhlVJ7BlU2; Message-ID: <410-220052417121634200 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Shipping LN2 or liquified air Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 06:16:34 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9408cb36667f837e93a5a461757b96a3bbb350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.254 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57825 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Horace Heffner (The Grand Dragon Professor of Vortex-l) wrote: :-) > > Like I said, if you feel that is true go for it. I have other things I > would much rather discuss. I will soon return to ignoring highly > speculative posts on this issue. > Good idea. That gives others a chance to mull over a posted thought before you jump in with your "Self-Taught" edicts and discourage further discussion. LIST RULES: "The Vortex-L list was originally created for discussions of professional research into fluid vortex/cavitation devices which exhibit anomalous energy effects (ie: the inventions of Schaeffer, Huffman, Griggs, and Potapov among others.) Skeptics beware, the topics also wander to any anomalous physics such as "Cold Fusion," reports of excess energy in "free energy" devices, chemical transmutation, gravity generation and detection, and all sorts of supposedly crackpot claims." " 2. NO SNEERING. Ridicule, derision, scoffing, and ad-hominem is banned. "Pathological Skepticism" is banned (see http://amasci.com/pathsk2.txt) The tone here should be one of legitimate disagreement and respectful debate. Vortex-L is a big nasty nest of 'true believers' (hopefully having some tendency to avoid self-deception,) and skeptics may as well leave in disgust. But if your mind is open and you wish to test "crazy" claims rather than ridiculing them or explaining them away, hop on board!" ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

Horace Heffner (The Grand Dragon Professor of Vortex-l) wrote:   :-)
 
>
> Like I said, if you feel that is true go for it.  I have other things I
> would much rather discuss.  I will soon return to ignoring highly
> speculative posts on this issue.
>
Good idea.  That gives others a chance to mull over a  posted thought
before you jump in with your "Self-Taught" edicts and discourage further discussion.

 
LIST RULES:
"The Vortex-L list was originally created for discussions of professional
research into fluid vortex/cavitation devices which exhibit anomalous
energy effects (ie: the inventions of Schaeffer, Huffman, Griggs, and
Potapov among others.) Skeptics beware, the topics also wander to any
anomalous physics such as "Cold Fusion," reports of excess energy in "free
energy" devices, chemical transmutation, gravity generation and detection,
and all sorts of supposedly crackpot claims."
 
" 2. NO SNEERING. Ridicule, derision, scoffing, and ad-hominem is
banned. "Pathological Skepticism" is banned (see
http://amasci.com/pathsk2.txt) The tone here should be one of
legitimate disagreement and respectful debate. Vortex-L is a big nasty
nest of 'true believers' (hopefully having some tendency to avoid
self-deception,) and skeptics may as well leave in disgust. But if
your mind is open and you wish to test "crazy" claims rather than
ridiculing them or explaining them away, hop on board!"
 
 
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 17 05:58:48 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1HDwMTI027001; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 05:58:26 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1HDwIrM026961; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 05:58:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 05:58:18 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=Wxaw100BBTuGoLRFAMIoujtOnAIrUbyELbp+jVJFfs85v7VzuQNwK9wj7f+KHJ6q; Message-ID: <410-220052417125745130 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Smokestack CO2 & LN2 Production Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 06:57:45 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94058be3b7128e1bae8a04d78a11d32ce4f350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.165.248 Resent-Message-ID: <01dvV.A.JlG.5LKFCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57826 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII The most obvious place to reduce atmospheric CO2 is at the stacks of fossil fuel-burning power plants(about 3 pounds/Kilowatt-hour), lime-kilns, cement plants, and other fixed sources. The worlds hydrosphere and terrestrial biomass growth can handle holding the atmospheric CO2 level at optimum, if the input burden is reduced. LN2 production is the obvious way to handle the N2, CO2, and H2O stack gases for cost effective separation. Pipelines or transport vehicles can handle disposal of CO2 for storage in abandoned gas wells, and underground sites previously for natural gas storage. With present electrical power "Wheeling" laws, wind or other non-fossil power can be applied to the sequestering process through their use . These ARE POLITICAL NOT TECHNICAL PROBLEMS. Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

The most obvious place to reduce  atmospheric CO2 is at the stacks of
fossil fuel-burning power plants(about 3 pounds/Kilowatt-hour), lime-kilns, cement plants,
and other fixed sources.
The worlds hydrosphere and terrestrial biomass growth can handle holding the
atmospheric CO2 level at optimum, if the input burden is reduced.
LN2 production is the obvious way to handle the N2, CO2, and H2O stack gases
for cost effective separation.
Pipelines or transport vehicles can handle disposal of CO2 for storage in abandoned gas wells,
and underground sites previously for natural gas storage.
With present electrical power "Wheeling" laws, wind or other non-fossil power can be
applied to the sequestering process through their use
.
These ARE POLITICAL NOT TECHNICAL PROBLEMS.
 
Frederick

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 17 06:17:25 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1HEHBTI006011; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 06:17:12 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1HEH8O6005980; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 06:17:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 06:17:08 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=luGNheyFYgsWR9RK92FGsSVmoesYp6i60tQfba5GxKjfQJa9QGzLojPFBqpsosuE; Message-ID: <410-220052417131638140 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Speculation on ZPE & LN2 Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 07:16:38 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940556b36b4c584324d05cf9c2838fd2e9d350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.117.155 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57827 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII I sent a note to Hal Puthoff the other day asking his thoughts on the possibility that under Cryogenic conditions the vacuum ZPE can actually cause a slight mass increase in the atoms/molecules, which can be dumped as energy when the atoms/molecules are bought to higher temperature conditions. His response was that "the Air Force sponsored Robert Forward's research in this area". Is Jones Beene on to something? Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

I sent a note to Hal Puthoff the other day asking his thoughts on
the possibility that under Cryogenic conditions the vacuum ZPE can
actually cause a slight mass increase in the atoms/molecules, which can
be dumped as energy when the atoms/molecules are bought to
higher temperature conditions.
 
His response was that "the Air Force sponsored Robert Forward's research in this
area".
Is Jones Beene on to something?
 
Frederick
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 17 06:40:18 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1HEdpTI018952; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 06:39:52 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1HEdnVT018902; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 06:39:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 06:39:49 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001e01c514fd$b2e8a680$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: Subject: Re: Shipping LN2 or liquified air Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 06:33:49 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57828 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frederick Sparber writes > Horace Heffner (The Grand Dragon Professor of Vortex-l) wrote: :-) > > Like I said, if you feel that is true go for it. I have other things I would much rather discuss. I will soon return to ignoring highly speculative posts on this issue. > Good idea. That gives others a chance to mull over a posted thought before you jump in with your "Self-Taught" edicts and discourage further discussion. This is really curious for a salutary chuckle, if nothing else, Fred. I find it intensely amusing that someone who normally excels in occasionally brilliant but occasionally deficient speculations based on a partial understanding of the total physics behind certain phenomena (the ones he chooses to believe in), to suddenly act as if he expects a possible cutting-edge and certainly very novel concept, (which he chooses not to believe in), to somehow be presented to him with full experimental proof and fully vetted details, as if it came directly from an accredited University laboratory with a mega-million budget. Bizarre.... If I had the resources to do prove the concept or even to continue to the next level of experimentation, would I even be presenting it here in the hope that someone with the necessary resources who might find it compelling, an will pursue it? Yes, I think Horace in "following his bliss" on the free-energy scene, would benefit greatly from "ignoring highly speculative posts" ... but if he does choose to comment, instead of compounding his ignorance at the expense of our bliss, it would seem that he can accomplish much more by dispensing with the unwarranted level of negativism... especially negativism compounded by short-sightedness. Negativism based on a *clear understanding* of relevant issues can be helpful, but not based on personal and arbitrary standards that only apply to the ideas of others. BTW the cynical observer might even interpret this kind of behavior as a thinly disguised "not invented here" type of envy-negativism, no? Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 17 07:48:11 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1HFlbTI004476; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 07:47:38 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1HFlVgf004407; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 07:47:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 07:47:31 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050217104439.0290e8e8 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 10:47:11 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: BBC Horizon to feature Taleyarkhan Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_64755765==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57829 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_64755765==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed [It is absurd that these people think a claim can be disproved with a single experiment! And if they do not really believe that, they should not say it, because people viewing the television will believe them. - JR] Horizon Thu 17 Feb, 9:00 pm - 9:50 pm 50mins (BBC2) An Experiment to Save the World Horizon takes one of the most controversial and ambitious claims in science, and conducts an experiment to see if it's really true. If the experiment works, then the world could be on the way to a new form of cheap, unlimited, pollution free energy. But if it fails, then that dream will die. The experiment is an attempt to make nuclear fusion, one of the Holy Grails of science. Nuclear fusion is the process that powers the sun, and scientists know that if they could just make fusion happen here on Earth, they could solve all the world's energy problems. Billions of pounds have been spent, but so far nuclear fusion has failed to deliver. Now an American scientist claims to have created nuclear fusion simply by bombarding a flask of liquid with sound waves. His work has been published in Science Magazine, one of the most prestigious journals in the world. But many scientists refuse to believe his claims. Horizon attempts to sort the matter out once and for all; we've commissioned a team of world class scientists to try and replicate Rusi Taleyarkhan's experiment. This film reveals the result of that experiment. [With audio description] Subtitles Stereo Widescreen Website: http://www.bbc.co.uk/horizon/ --=====================_64755765==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" [It is absurd that these people think a claim can be disproved with a single experiment! And if they do not really believe that, they should not say it, because people viewing the television will believe them. - JR]

Horizon
Thu 17 Feb, 9:00 pm - 9:50 pm  50mins (BBC2)

An Experiment to Save the World

Horizon takes one of the most controversial and ambitious claims in science, and conducts an experiment to see if it's really true. If the experiment works, then the world could be on the way to a new form of cheap, unlimited, pollution free energy. But if it fails, then that dream will die. The experiment is an attempt to make nuclear fusion, one of the Holy Grails of science.

Nuclear fusion is the process that powers the sun, and scientists know that if they could just make fusion happen here on Earth, they could solve all the world's energy problems. Billions of pounds have been spent, but so far nuclear fusion has failed to deliver.

Now an American scientist claims to have created nuclear fusion simply by bombarding a flask of liquid with sound waves. His work has been published in Science Magazine, one of the most prestigious journals in the world. But many scientists refuse to believe his claims.

Horizon attempts to sort the matter out once and for all; we've commissioned a team of world class scientists to try and replicate Rusi Taleyarkhan's experiment. This film reveals the result of that experiment. [With audio description]

Subtitles   Stereo  Widescreen

Website:  http://www.bbc.co.uk/horizon/

 --=====================_64755765==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 17 08:42:53 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1HGgKTI005138; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 08:42:21 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1HGgHCu005100; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 08:42:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 08:42:17 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Michael Huffman Reply-To: knuke sumosound.de Organization: Haus an der Foerde GmbH To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BBC Horizon to feature Taleyarkhan Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 17:42:22 +0100 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.3 References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050217104439.0290e8e8 pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050217104439.0290e8e8 pop.mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200502171742.22732.knuke sumosound.de> X-Provags-ID: kundenserver.de abuse kundenserver.de auth:b76291440de0a671bf17bfec730be47d Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57830 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Gnorts, Taleyarkhan has been doing cavitation experiments for over thirty years, Jed. Knuke Am Donnerstag, 17. Februar 2005 16:47 schrieb Jed Rothwell: > [It is absurd that these people think a claim can be disproved with a > single experiment! And if they do not really believe that, they should not > say it, because people viewing the television will believe them. - JR] > > Horizon > Thu 17 Feb, 9:00 pm - 9:50 pm 50mins (BBC2) > > An Experiment to Save the World > > Horizon takes one of the most controversial and ambitious claims in > science, and conducts an experiment to see if it's really true. If the > experiment works, then the world could be on the way to a new form of > cheap, unlimited, pollution free energy. But if it fails, then that dream > will die. The experiment is an attempt to make nuclear fusion, one of the > Holy Grails of science. > > Nuclear fusion is the process that powers the sun, and scientists know that > if they could just make fusion happen here on Earth, they could solve all > the world's energy problems. Billions of pounds have been spent, but so far > nuclear fusion has failed to deliver. > > Now an American scientist claims to have created nuclear fusion simply by > bombarding a flask of liquid with sound waves. His work has been published > in Science Magazine, one of the most prestigious journals in the world. But > many scientists refuse to believe his claims. > > Horizon attempts to sort the matter out once and for all; we've > commissioned a team of world class scientists to try and replicate Rusi > Taleyarkhan's experiment. This film reveals the result of that experiment. > [With audio description] > > Subtitles Stereo Widescreen > > Website: http://www.bbc.co.uk/horizon/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 17 08:56:42 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1HGu8TI013581; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 08:56:08 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1HGtrqP013428; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 08:55:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 08:55:53 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050217115505.02990ea8 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 11:55:20 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Book is revised slightly / Paper by Fleischmann Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_68846343==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57831 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_68846343==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I revised the book slightly and uploaded new versions. I corrected six or eight typos, improved the caption to figure 16.6, and added a new figure to chapter 13. No big deal. Yesterday, I uploaded a gigantic bear of a paper paper by Martin Fleischmann et al. it took me a week to prepare it. This was the second paper they published, according to our database. http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/Fleischmancalorimetr.pdf Martin really went overboard in the calorimetry department -- in my opinion. Skeptics sometimes claim that F&P did not do calibration experiments and they did not do careful work before going public in 1989. This paper shows that these skeptics do not know what they are talking about. We now have the first and second papers published by F&P. - Jed --=====================_68846343==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" I revised the book slightly and uploaded new versions. I corrected six or eight typos, improved the caption to figure 16.6, and added a new figure to chapter 13. No big deal.

Yesterday, I uploaded a gigantic bear of a paper paper by Martin Fleischmann et al. it took me a week to prepare it. This was the second paper they published, according to our database.

http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/Fleischmancalorimetr.pdf

Martin really went overboard in the calorimetry department -- in my opinion.

Skeptics sometimes claim that F&P did not do calibration experiments and they did not do careful work before going public in 1989. This paper shows that these skeptics do not know what they are talking about.

We now have the first and second papers published by F&P.

- Jed
--=====================_68846343==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 17 09:07:05 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1HH66TI020180; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 09:06:10 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1HH5nC6019833; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 09:05:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 09:05:49 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050217120130.02bbdae8 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 12:05:18 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: BBC Horizon to feature Taleyarkhan In-Reply-To: <200502171742.22732.knuke sumosound.de> References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050217104439.0290e8e8 pop.mindspring.com> <200502171742.22732.knuke sumosound.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_69442750==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57832 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_69442750==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Michael Huffman wrote: >Gnorts, >Taleyarkhan has been doing cavitation experiments for over thirty years, Jed. And the BBC has been doing them for -- what? -- six weeks? And yet they claim: "If the experiment works, then the world could be on the way to a new form of cheap, unlimited, pollution free energy. But if it fails, then that dream will die." The DREAM WILL DIE, folks!!! All of you in viewing audience: please, clap your hands! Keep Tinker-bell alive! - Jed --=====================_69442750==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Michael Huffman wrote:

Gnorts,
Taleyarkhan has been doing cavitation experiments for over thirty years, Jed.

And the BBC has been doing them for -- what? -- six weeks? And yet they claim:

"If the experiment works, then the world could be on the way to a new form of cheap, unlimited, pollution free energy. But if it fails, then that dream will die."

The DREAM WILL DIE, folks!!! All of you in viewing audience: please, clap your hands! Keep Tinker-bell alive!

- Jed
 --=====================_69442750==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 17 09:10:26 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1HH9lTI023771; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 09:09:48 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1HH9YIO023658; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 09:09:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 09:09:34 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <000c01c51513$5e7e61f0$dc027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Emailing: ethics Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 11:08:57 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0009_01C514E1.135D83E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-94.2 required=4.0 tests=HTML_30_40,HTML_FONT_BIG, HTML_FONT_INVISIBLE,HTML_MESSAGE,HTML_TAG_EXISTS_TBODY, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57833 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C514E1.135D83E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Guide Rails, Lifting Stanchions, PVC Hose and Fittings, Control Panels - = Mastrrr Company's Gas Mastrrr Accessories - chemical blending flash = mixers, chemical induction mixers, chemical flash mixers, chlorination = mixer, dechlorination mixers, sulfur dioxide mixers, vacuum induction, = chemical, feeders, Chlorinators =20 =20 Setting the Standard Code of Ethics and Business Conduct =20 This Flier, Setting the Standard, has been adopted by = THE____________COMPANY as our Company's Code of Ethics and Business = Conduct. It summarizes the virtues and principals that are to guide our = actions in business. We expect our representatives, consultants, = contractors and suppliers to be guided by them as well. There are numerous resources available to assist you in meeting = the challenge of performing your duties and responsibilities. There can = be no better course of action for you than to apply common sense and = sound judgement to the manner in which you conduct yourself. However, do = not hesitate to use the resources that are available whenever it is = necessary to seek clarification. The ________COMPANY aims to "set the standard" for ethical = business conduct. We will achieve this through six virtues: Honesty, = Integrity, Respect, Trust, Responsibility, and Citizenship. ....Honesty: to be truthful in all our endeavors; to be honest and = forthright with one another and with our representatives, customers, = communities, and suppliers. ....Integrity: to say what we mean, to deliver what we promise, = and to stand for what is right. ....Respect: to treat one another with dignity and fairness, = appreciating the diversity of our workforce and the uniqueness of each = employee. ....Trust: to build confidence through teamwork and open, candid = communication. ....Responsibility: to speak up - without fear of retribution - = and report concerns in the work place, .including violations of laws, = regulations and company policies, and seek clarification and guidance = whenever there is doubt. ....Citizenship: to obey all the laws of the United States and the = other countries in which we do ....business and to do our part to make = the communities in which we live better. You can count on us to do everything in our power to meet THE = ________COMPANY'S standards. We are counting on you to do the same. We = are confident that our trust in you is well placed and we are determined = to be worhty of your trust. I see more and more Companies adopt this statement as a code of = conduct ..BUT ?? I see NO US government agencies adopt it. They have a " = Mission Statement" BUT NO ETHICS STATEMENT Richard =20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C514E1.135D83E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Guide Rails, Lifting Stanchions, PVC Hose and = Fittings, Control Panels - Mastrrr Company's Gas Mastrrr Accessories - = chemical blending flash mixers, chemical induction mixers, chemical = flash mixers, chlorination mixer, dechlorination mixers, sulfur dioxide = mixers, vacuum induction, chemical, feeders, Chlorinators
 

          &nbs= p;        

Setting the=20 Standard

Code of Ethics = and Business=20 Conduct

This Flier, Setting the = Standard, has=20 been adopted by THE____________COMPANY as our Company's = Code of=20 Ethics and Business Conduct. It summarizes the virtues and = principals that=20 are to guide our actions in business. We expect our = representatives,=20 consultants, contractors and suppliers to be guided by them as=20 well.

There are numerous resources available to = assist=20 you in meeting the challenge of performing your duties and=20 responsibilities. There can be no better course of action for you = than to=20 apply common sense and sound judgement to the manner in which you = conduct=20 yourself. However, do not hesitate to use the resources that are = available=20 whenever it is necessary to seek clarification.

The ________COMPANY aims to "set = the=20 standard" for ethical business conduct. We will achieve this = through six=20 virtues: Honesty, Integrity, Respect, Trust, Responsibility, and=20 Citizenship.

....Honesty: to be truthful in all = our=20 endeavors; to be honest and forthright with one another and with=20 our representatives, customers, = communities,=20 and suppliers.

....Integrity: to say what we mean, = to=20 deliver what we promise, and to stand for what is = right.

....Respect: to treat one another = with=20 dignity and fairness, appreciating the diversity of our workforce = and the=20 uniqueness of each employee.

....Trust:=20 to build confidence through teamwork and open, candid=20 communication.

....Responsibility: to speak up - = without=20 fear of retribution - and report concerns in the work place, .including violations of laws, regulations = and=20 company policies, and seek clarification and guidance whenever = there is=20 doubt.

....Citizenship: to obey all the = laws of the=20 United States and the other countries in which we do ....business and to do our part to make the = communities in which we live better.

You can count on us to do everything in = our power=20 to meet THE ________COMPANY'S standards. We are counting on = you to=20 do the same. We are confident that our trust in you is well placed = and we=20 are determined to be worhty of your trust.

 

I see more and more Companies = adopt this=20 statement as a code of conduct ..BUT ??

I see NO    =  US=20 government agencies adopt it. They have a " Mission Statement" BUT = NO=20 ETHICS STATEMENT

Richard

 

------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C514E1.135D83E0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 17 09:21:46 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1HHLMTI032011; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 09:21:23 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1HHL1wY031788; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 09:21:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 09:21:01 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: BBC Horizon to feature Taleyarkhan Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 12:21:27 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050217120130.02bbdae8 pop.mindspring.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57835 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hey Jed + Knuke, If the dream dies, can the reality of LENR finally come out? I for one am getting kind of sick of the dreaming.... K. -----Original Message----- From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:jedrothwell mindspring.com] Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 12:05 PM To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: Re: BBC Horizon to feature Taleyarkhan Michael Huffman wrote: Gnorts, Taleyarkhan has been doing cavitation experiments for over thirty years, Jed. And the BBC has been doing them for -- what? -- six weeks? And yet they claim: "If the experiment works, then the world could be on the way to a new form of cheap, unlimited, pollution free energy. But if it fails, then that dream will die." The DREAM WILL DIE, folks!!! All of you in viewing audience: please, clap your hands! Keep Tinker-bell alive! - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 17 09:30:50 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1HHUGTK004902; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 09:30:23 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1HHFQZo027765; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 09:15:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 09:15:26 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <009001c51513$5caf9560$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: Cc: References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050217104439.0290e8e8 pop.mindspring.com> <200502171742.22732.knuke@sumosound.de> Subject: Re: BBC Horizon to feature Taleyarkhan Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 09:08:54 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: <90rG0C.A.rxG.sENFCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57834 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ahoy Knuke, > Taleyarkhan has been doing cavitation experiments for over thirty years, Even so, it was a big mistake, and typical mainstream arrogance, that in all the publicity that Taleyarkhan recieved (riding on the ORNL coat-tails) that he did not credit nor even mention the extraordinary contributions to the field of sonfusion from former vortex contributor Ross Tessien, founder of Impulse Devices, and Dr. Gaitan the chief scientist (nor did he mention Knuke either, but should have !). Caveat: this criticism relates to the first ORNL announcement and they may have issued an addenda, but if so, it didn't make the news. Here is some new and surprising info from them (Tessien's Co); http://tinyurl.com/6f5me Grass Valley CA (SPX) Dec 14, 2004 "Impulse Devices, a developer of sonofusion power (acoustic inertial confinement fusion, AICF), announced Monday the availability of its research reactor to laboratories, universities, power equipment manufacturers and utilities attempting to produce a new alternative energy." Jones They are selling the reactor, which should accelerate R&D but the actual device is a far cry from the Nova reactor pictured in the article. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 17 09:37:07 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1HHaSTI009960; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 09:36:28 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1HHa55U009675; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 09:36:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 09:36:05 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050217173203.006a226c pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 17:32:03 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: BBC Horizon to feature Taleyarkhan Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57836 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:47 am 17-02-05 -0500, you wrote: >[It is absurd that these people think a claim can be disproved with a >single experiment! And if they do not really believe that, they should not >say it, because people viewing the television will believe them. - JR] > >Horizon >Thu 17 Feb, 9:00 pm - 9:50 pm 50mins (BBC2) > >An Experiment to Save the World It would be interesting to know the agenda of the people who thought that one up. 8-( Still, it may be a sign someone's getting worried this Cold Fusion malarkey could be for real, eh, and they want to abort it. 8-) But, as the modern proverb goes, NO PUBLICITY IS BAD PUBLICITY. Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 17 09:44:31 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1HHhxTI016276; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 09:44:00 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1HHh7OK015565; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 09:43:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 09:43:07 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4214D805.70201 ix.netcom.com> Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 10:44:37 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex Subject: Re: BBC Horizon to feature Taleyarkhan References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <4YJ5R.A.6yD.keNFCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57837 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Once again, we are being treated to one more example of exaggeration and BS. The Taleyarkhan cavitation work is hot fusion occurring in bubbles, not cold fusion. The rates are very low and the method would not work if power output were at commercial levels, yet this work gets attention. In contrast, Stringham has caused cold fusion to occur at near commercial levels in metals by applying deuterium to the metal using cavitation, yet this work is ignored. We are not being treated to dreams, but to nightmares. Ed Keith Nagel wrote: > Hey Jed + Knuke, > > If the dream dies, can the reality of LENR finally come out? I for one am getting kind > of sick of the dreaming.... > > K. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:jedrothwell mindspring.com] > Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 12:05 PM > To: vortex-L eskimo.com > Subject: Re: BBC Horizon to feature Taleyarkhan > > > Michael Huffman wrote: > > > Gnorts, > Taleyarkhan has been doing cavitation experiments for over thirty years, Jed. > > And the BBC has been doing them for -- what? -- six weeks? And yet they claim: > > "If the experiment works, then the world could be on the way to a new form of cheap, unlimited, pollution free energy. But if it > fails, then that dream will die." > > The DREAM WILL DIE, folks!!! All of you in viewing audience: please, clap your hands! Keep Tinker-bell alive! > > - Jed > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 17 09:52:02 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1HHpXTI021805; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 09:51:33 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1HHpRHP021733; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 09:51:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 09:51:27 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 12:48:41 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: BBC Horizon to feature Taleyarkhan In-reply-to: <2.2.32.20050217173203.006a226c pop.freeserve.net> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57838 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Whorizon Harry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 17 09:52:34 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1HHq3TI022175; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 09:52:04 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1HHpvbO022044; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 09:51:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 09:51:57 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050217174817.006b3238 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 17:48:17 +0000 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Speculation on ZPE & LN2 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57839 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 07:16 am 17-02-05 -0600, you wrote: >I sent a note to Hal Puthoff the other day asking his thoughts on >the possibility that under Cryogenic conditions the vacuum ZPE can >actually cause a slight mass increase in the atoms/molecules, which can >be dumped as energy when the atoms/molecules are bought to >higher temperature conditions. > >His response was that "the Air Force sponsored Robert Forward's research in this >area". >Is Jones Beene on to something? This would imply that the heating and cooling processes are brought about by different levels (fractions) of the hierarchical Beta-aether to give a hysteresis effect. Mmm... sounds plausible. Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 17 09:55:56 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1HHtVTI024708; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 09:55:32 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1HHtIdv024596; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 09:55:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 09:55:18 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Michael Huffman Reply-To: knuke sumosound.de Organization: Haus an der Foerde GmbH To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BBC Horizon to feature Taleyarkhan Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 18:55:11 +0100 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.3 References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050217104439.0290e8e8 pop.mindspring.com> <200502171742.22732.knuke@sumosound.de> <009001c51513$5caf9560$d0bcfea9@jonesb9pacbell> In-Reply-To: <009001c51513$5caf9560$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-15" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200502171855.11982.knuke sumosound.de> X-Provags-ID: kundenserver.de abuse kundenserver.de auth:b76291440de0a671bf17bfec730be47d Resent-Message-ID: <8GLMhC.A.CAG.EqNFCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57840 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Moin Moin! I'm just glad (and a bit surprised, actually) to see Taleyarkhan's work being examined at all. I read very vague references to his work when I first started researching cavitation in 1993, and that was in the form of some BBS messages or something. It wasn't even on the internet. In some references, he was referred to as being a professor, in others not. There was no mention of his country of origin, and by his name, I figured that he was Russian. He was using cavitation to clean large aquarium tanks in the far East - Singapore, I believe, in the mid 70's. Beyond that, there was never any mention of him, and I was digging for info on him for years. His work just wasn't very widely published back then. As I recall, he had only published two papers in some very obscure journals, and I never could find any copies of those. Of course, you are right that a large number of people have contributed to the science since Lord Reyleigh first proposed the cavitation bubble collapse hypothosis in the late 1800's, and Jed is also right about the black and white nature of the announcement of the BBC experiment, but that is purely showbizness. The fact remains though, that Taleyarkhan was doing useful work with cavitation twenty years before the likes of me, Tessien, or Putterman got into the act, and I am glad to see that he is still around. By his foto, he doesn't look to be all that old, either. It would be interesting to learn more about his career. Knuke > Even so, it was a big mistake, and typical mainstream > arrogance, that in all the publicity that Taleyarkhan > recieved (riding on the ORNL coat-tails) that he did not > credit nor even mention the extraordinary contributions to > the field of sonfusion from former vortex contributor Ross > Tessien, founder of Impulse Devices, and Dr. Gaitan the > chief scientist (nor did he mention Knuke either, but should > have !). Caveat: this criticism relates to the first ORNL > announcement and they may have issued an addenda, but if so, > it didn't make the news. > > Here is some new and surprising info from them (Tessien's > Co); > http://tinyurl.com/6f5me From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 17 09:56:31 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1HHuATI025233; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 09:56:11 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1HHu65w025173; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 09:56:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 09:56:06 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20050217095755.04f498d8 mail.dlsi.net> X-Sender: steven%newenergytimes.com mail.dlsi.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 09:58:44 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: BBC Horizon to feature Taleyarkhan In-Reply-To: <009001c51513$5caf9560$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050217104439.0290e8e8 pop.mindspring.com> <200502171742.22732.knuke sumosound.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57841 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >have !). Caveat: this criticism relates to the first ORNL >announcement and they may have issued an addenda, but if so, >it didn't make the news. I am told that the second paper addressed the criticism from the first paper: http://newenergytimes.com/news/8.htm#impulsedevices s From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 17 10:06:49 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1HI6QTI000430; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 10:06:26 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1HI3Bmq030629; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 10:03:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 10:03:11 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <00c401c5151a$114fc2a0$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050217104439.0290e8e8 pop.mindspring.com> <200502171742.22732.knuke@sumosound.de> <009001c51513$5caf9560$d0bcfea9@jonesb9pacbell> Subject: Re: BBC Horizon to feature Taleyarkhan Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 09:56:54 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57842 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Given a moment to reflect on ALL of the circumstances...DUH... one should always "follow the buck" first and ask questions later. > Even so, it was a big mistake, and typical mainstream > arrogance, that in all the publicity that Taleyarkhan > recieved (riding on the ORNL coat-tails) that he did not > credit nor even mention the extraordinary contributions to > the field of sonfusion from former vortex contributor Ross > Tessien, founder of Impulse Devices, and Dr. Gaitan the > chief scientist (nor did he mention Knuke either, but should > have !). Should have mentioned Russ George also, as Ed suggests... and... I forgot to mention that since incorporation, IDI has received over 20 patents and expects even more. "Our patent attorneys are Townsend & Townsend in San Francisco, one of the nation's best patent law firms," Tessien told one writer. Yup. They are probably THE best, not one of the best, and that is also probably why they have either threatened litigation or asked for a cease and desist order against ORNL, and why ORNL, which has its own hefty staff of IP professionals, does not, and will not, acknowledge the prior art (until a court order, or some settlement, that is).... one cannot imagine that there is no possibility of infringement here with this many patents floating around. All this high level legal maneuvering and yet... Bob Park thinks it is still pathological science, with no basis in reality... Follow the Buck, Bob... Jones BTW is it for certain that this show is a "put-down"? The Beeb is usually rather circumspect about that kind of thing. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 17 10:32:46 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1HIURnV016024; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 10:32:22 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1HI7W4a001262; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 10:07:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 10:07:32 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050217175628.00694b1c pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 17:56:28 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: BBC Horizon to feature Taleyarkhan Resent-Message-ID: <9j7UsB.A.WT.h1NFCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57843 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:44 am 17-02-05 -0700, you wrote: > > > Once again, we are being treated to one > more example of exaggeration and >BS. > The Taleyarkhan cavitation work is hot > fusion occurring in bubbles,.... or cold fusion occuring in Beta-aether vacua cavities. 8^) Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 17 10:49:42 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1HIn60K027418; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 10:49:10 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1HIn19O027357; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 10:49:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 10:49:01 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Emailing: ethics Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 13:49:50 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <000c01c51513$5e7e61f0$dc027841 xptower> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57844 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Howdy RC, I showed your document to Coyote, he yelped and barked and generally carried on so as I had to plug my ears for all the racket. After things calmed down, he sent me here. http://thesmokinggun.com/enron/enronethics1.html Coyote recommended it to me, and I to you. Can we get more businesses to sign on to this pledge? Coyote sez, "They're lining up to sign". K. -----Original Message----- From: RC Macaulay [mailto:walhalla cvtv.net] Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 12:09 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Emailing: ethics Setting the Standard Code of Ethics and Business Conduct This Flier, Setting the Standard, has been adopted by THE____________COMPANY as our Company's Code of Ethics and Business Conduct. It summarizes the virtues and principals that are to guide our actions in business. We expect our representatives, consultants, contractors and suppliers to be guided by them as well. There are numerous resources available to assist you in meeting the challenge of performing your duties and responsibilities. There can be no better course of action for you than to apply common sense and sound judgement to the manner in which you conduct yourself. However, do not hesitate to use the resources that are available whenever it is necessary to seek clarification. The ________COMPANY aims to "set the standard" for ethical business conduct. We will achieve this through six virtues: Honesty, Integrity, Respect, Trust, Responsibility, and Citizenship. ....Honesty: to be truthful in all our endeavors; to be honest and forthright with one another and with our representatives, customers, communities, and suppliers. ....Integrity: to say what we mean, to deliver what we promise, and to stand for what is right. ....Respect: to treat one another with dignity and fairness, appreciating the diversity of our workforce and the uniqueness of each employee. ....Trust: to build confidence through teamwork and open, candid communication. ....Responsibility: to speak up - without fear of retribution - and report concerns in the work place, .including violations of laws, regulations and company policies, and seek clarification and guidance whenever there is doubt. ....Citizenship: to obey all the laws of the United States and the other countries in which we do ....business and to do our part to make the communities in which we live better. You can count on us to do everything in our power to meet THE ________COMPANY'S standards. We are counting on you to do the same. We are confident that our trust in you is well placed and we are determined to be worhty of your trust. I see more and more Companies adopt this statement as a code of conduct ..BUT ?? I see NO US government agencies adopt it. They have a " Mission Statement" BUT NO ETHICS STATEMENT Richard From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 17 11:15:03 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1HJEX3F008179; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 11:14:34 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1HJEUL9008141; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 11:14:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 11:14:30 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Michael Huffman Reply-To: knuke sumosound.de To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BBC Horizon to feature Taleyarkhan Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 20:14:38 +0100 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.3 References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050217104439.0290e8e8 pop.mindspring.com> <009001c51513$5caf9560$d0bcfea9@jonesb9pacbell> <200502171855.11982.knuke@sumosound.de> In-Reply-To: <200502171855.11982.knuke sumosound.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-15" Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200502172014.38168.knuke sumosound.de> X-Provags-ID: kundenserver.de abuse kundenserver.de auth:b76291440de0a671bf17bfec730be47d Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j1HJEO3F008068 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57845 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Gnorts again°! Actually, I think that I am confusing Taleyarkhan with an earlier researcher with a similar name. I did a quick Google, and came up with a paper at: http://www.sciencemag.org/feature/data/hottopics/bubble/1067589.pdf In the references, he credits just about everybody worth crediting. Crum, Matula, Susslick, Gaitan, Barber, etc., etc.. I just did a quick read of the paper, but it looks pretty convincing, and the experiment itself looks to be easy enough to set up with enough money and equipment. I hope the BBC doesn't snot the whole thing up so that it doesn't work on prime time. The assasination of dreams is not a pretty thing to watch. Knuke Am Donnerstag, 17. Februar 2005 18:55 schrieb Michael Huffman: > Moin Moin! > > I'm just glad (and a bit surprised, actually) to see Taleyarkhan's work > being examined at all. I read very vague references to his work when I > first started researching cavitation in 1993, and that was in the form of > some BBS messages or something. It wasn't even on the internet. In some > references, he was referred to as being a professor, in others not. There > was no mention of his country of origin, and by his name, I figured that he > was Russian. > > He was using cavitation to clean large aquarium tanks in the far East - > Singapore, I believe, in the mid 70's. Beyond that, there was never any > mention of him, and I was digging for info on him for years. His work just > wasn't very widely published back then. As I recall, he had only published > two papers in some very obscure journals, and I never could find any copies > of those. > > Of course, you are right that a large number of people have contributed to > the science since Lord Reyleigh first proposed the cavitation bubble > collapse hypothosis in the late 1800's, and Jed is also right about the > black and white nature of the announcement of the BBC experiment, but that > is purely showbizness. > > The fact remains though, that Taleyarkhan was doing useful work with > cavitation twenty years before the likes of me, Tessien, or Putterman got > into the act, and I am glad to see that he is still around. By his foto, > he doesn't look to be all that old, either. It would be interesting to > learn more about his career. > > Knuke > > > Even so, it was a big mistake, and typical mainstream > > arrogance, that in all the publicity that Taleyarkhan > > recieved (riding on the ORNL coat-tails) that he did not > > credit nor even mention the extraordinary contributions to > > the field of sonfusion from former vortex contributor Ross > > Tessien, founder of Impulse Devices, and Dr. Gaitan the > > chief scientist (nor did he mention Knuke either, but should > > have !). Caveat: this criticism relates to the first ORNL > > announcement and they may have issued an addenda, but if so, > > it didn't make the news. > > > > Here is some new and surprising info from them (Tessien's > > Co); > > http://tinyurl.com/6f5me From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 17 11:39:22 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1HJd9it019187; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 11:39:09 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1HJd3VF019150; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 11:39:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 11:39:03 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4214F342.70203 ix.netcom.com> Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 12:40:50 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BBC Horizon to feature Taleyarkhan References: <2.2.32.20050217175628.00694b1c pop.freeserve.net> In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.20050217175628.00694b1c pop.freeserve.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <-eck3.A.IrE.XLPFCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57846 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I think it's easier not to confuse cold fusion with hot fusion by introducing the Beta-ether concept. We have enough trouble just talking about what is known without introducing what is unknown. Cold fusion describes nuclear reactions that take place in special atomic lattices without application of significant ambient energy, and result in helium when fusion occurs. On the other hand, hot fusion occurs in a plasma or when significant energy is applied, is independent of the atomic environment, and produces neutrons and tritium in equal amounts. The Taleyarkhan work produces a microplasma and detects neutrons. Based on the observed behavior, this is hot fusion, not cold fusion. I might add, the reaction rates are over 12 orders of magnitude less than those observed by Stringham. Even if the observations are real, they have a long way to go before the effect is useful. Regards, Ed Grimer wrote: > At 10:44 am 17-02-05 -0700, you wrote: > >> >>Once again, we are being treated to one >>more example of exaggeration and >BS. >>The Taleyarkhan cavitation work is hot >>fusion occurring in bubbles,.... > > > > > or cold fusion occuring in Beta-aether > vacua cavities. 8^) > > Grimer > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 17 11:43:25 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1HJhBit021001; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 11:43:11 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1HJh9Ll020980; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 11:43:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 11:43:09 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=JuABdhNkkPsRnySECKdDXUqKRn/FDlmADgNdzEBVJ9spG4mtGtwtJ/XnKKSKQKk5QNRAWjBi82ehdGMZW9X8FYePVOjc1pgEb4IO2ZuNOj+in6Yw+BYzgMAaJricLND1mn3cVSydKFQUd8DHikONQjbZcbGzagBaOlxIaRDP1Lw= ; Message-ID: <20050217194257.59468.qmail web51704.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 11:42:57 -0800 (PST) From: Terry Blanton Subject: Re: BBC Horizon to feature Taleyarkhan To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050217120130.02bbdae8 pop.mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1866938563-1108669377=:58646" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57847 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-1866938563-1108669377=:58646 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Amen! Ludivine Sagnier made a much more exciting Tinker than Julia Roberts: http://www.themakeupgallery.info/fantasy/elf/ppan.htm Jed Rothwell wrote:Keep Tinker-bell alive! --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' --0-1866938563-1108669377=:58646 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Amen!
 
Ludivine Sagnier made a much more exciting Tinker than Julia Roberts:
 
 
 

Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell mindspring.com> wrote:
Keep Tinker-bell alive!

Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' --0-1866938563-1108669377=:58646-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 17 12:30:55 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1HKU87D014519; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 12:30:37 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1HKH4fX006761; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 12:17:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 12:17:04 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <011401c5152c$c2286a20$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: Cc: Subject: Re: BBC Horizon to feature Taleyarkhan Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 12:10:42 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57848 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Huffman" > Actually, I think that I am confusing Taleyarkhan with an earlier researcher with a similar name. I did a quick Google, and came up with a paper at: > http://www.sciencemag.org/feature/data/hottopics/bubble/1067589.pdf Hey, along similar more recent lines and threads there is an interesting finding, at the end of this paper, "Tritium activity increases only in chilled ( 0°C) cavitated C3D6O, coupled with evidence for neutron emissions in chilled cavitated C3D6O..." Hmmm... tritium activity increasing in chilled acetone near the freeaing point of D2O. What could that mean? Was D2O present at all? It appears that acetone melts at ?94.8°C so this is not likely to involve the same "brittle mechanical failure" mechanism of explosive ice, or is it? At any rate, when hydrogen (or deuterium) bonds fail catastrophically in an explosive failure, atoms do get accelerated to keV energies, thus the x-rays seen in exploding-ice. One can interpret the implications of the Fateev experiments, cited earlier, in many ways to suit their personal agenda, but one cannot deny that x-rays do result from this mechanical failure. Indeed Bridgman showed the same thing with may types of brittle failure. The Fusor of Miley Hull etc. has demonstrated rather conclusively that head-on D fusion of the "warm" ICF variety requires a minimum of 10 keV per particle. Unlike Ed, I do not agree that this is necessarily the same as hot plasma fusion, even though the fusion products may be the same. There could just be an under-appreciated resonance at 10-25 keV range. BTW the rock-solid Fusor results of R. Hull seem to show that there is no net advantage, perhaps a nerative return of energy, of going much beyond 25 keV per particle in energy in the Fusor, so this is not "exactly" the same as hot fusion, even though the ash is the same, confusion of no. Is it possible that "bubble fusion" is not about bubble *collapse,* necessarily but about the pulling apart of hydrogen bonds in bubble *formation* at the point where the bonds normally would start to stiffen, due to decreasing temperature? IOW when a deuterium bond is at zero-C at ambient pressure, and that pressure is suddenly removed, prior to cavitation in the formation of the bubble; then the "effective temperature" drops signicantly for those bonds. The bonds will tend to realign to the new angle (the angle they assume in the solid, which is different than the bond-angle of the liquid), and the Casimir force will wrench some small proportion of bare deuterons away in a brittle mechanical failure. What happens next is anybody's guess. Of course, wouldn't it be delightful, for other reasons, to learn that there was some heavy water in the acetone. Some fringe observers might then claim that D2O is the active medium... but even if not... Wonder what happens when you get the acetone temperature down closer to the f.p.? They aren't telling, for whatever reason, but the thought surely crossed their collective minds during the experiment, since they already found positive results going lower... maybe Knuke knows what happens at lower temperatures, yet ? Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 17 13:09:55 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1HL9XFU006933; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 13:09:33 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1HL9R8h006891; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 13:09:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 13:09:27 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Baronvolsung aol.com Message-ID: <54.3e360697.2f4661fc aol.com> Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 16:09:16 EST Subject: Re: Secure & self-sustaining mini-mega pyramid communities To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_54.3e360697.2f4661fc_boundary" X-Mailer: 6.0 sub 10578 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57849 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --part1_54.3e360697.2f4661fc_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Additional Comments: 1. Note: Mini-mega-pyramidal and saucer-dome communities should also be able to withstand earthquakes and floods, by making the pyramids earthquake proof and water tight. High strength metals, crystals and plastics, and nanotechnologies especially those made from highly compressed sand and common ores, may be used to make the pyramid construction materials, so that the pyramids can be produced with materials that are local and common world wide. The pyramids should also be fire proof and bomb proof by using advanced materials, and automatited advanced monitoring and counter measure systems which monitor the pyramid, and surrounding areas, and automatically protect and self repair the pyramid. 2. The pyramids use saucer domes to grow foods. If the saucer domes are made to be sealed and floatable as well as flyable, then they can also be used as an emergency center for the pyramid communities to also relocate to if the pyramid is damaged. 3. To defend the pyramid communities from armies and large crowds, automated robotic drones may be built which monitor and the defend the pyramid communities automatically, in addition to man made motes or rivers, and high security fences and electronic fences and force fields placed around the pyramid communities. Baron Von Volsung, www.rhfweb.com\baron, Email: www.rhfweb.com\emailform.html President Thomas D. Clark, Email: www.rhfweb.com\emailform.html, Personal Web Page: www.rhfweb.com\personal New Age Production's Inc., www.rhfweb.com\newage Star Haven Community Services, at www.rhfweb.com\sh. Radiation Health Foundation Trust at www.rhfweb.com Making a difference one person at a time Get informed. Inform others. --part1_54.3e360697.2f4661fc_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Additional Comments:

1. Note: Mini-mega-pyramidal and saucer-dome communities should also be=20= able to withstand earthquakes and floods, by making the pyramids earthquake=20= proof and water tight.  High strength metals, crystals and plastics, an= d nanotechnologies especially those made from highly compressed sand and com= mon ores, may be used to make the pyramid construction materials, so that th= e pyramids can be produced with materials that are local and common world wi= de.  The pyramids should also be fire proof and bomb proof  by usi= ng advanced materials, and automatited advanced monitoring and counter measu= re systems which monitor the pyramid, and surrounding areas, and automatical= ly protect and self repair the pyramid.

2. The pyramids use saucer domes to grow foods. If the saucer domes are=20= made to be sealed and floatable as well as flyable, then they can also be us= ed as an emergency center for the pyramid communities to also relocate to if= the pyramid is damaged.

3. To defend the pyramid communities from armies and large crowds, autom= ated robotic drones may be built which monitor and the defend the pyramid co= mmunities automatically, in addition to man made motes or rivers, and high s= ecurity fences and electronic fences and force fields placed around the pyra= mid communities.

Baron Von Volsung, www.rhfweb.co= m\baron, Email: www.rhf= web.com\emailform.html=20
President Thomas D. Clark, Email: www.rhfweb.com\emailform.html,=20
Personal Web Page: www.rhfweb= .com\personal=20
New Age Production's Inc., www.= rhfweb.com\newage=20
Star Haven Community Services, at w= ww.rhfweb.com\sh.=20
Radiation Health Foundation Trust at = www.rhfweb.com=20

Making a difference one person at a time=20
Get informed. Inform others.=20
--part1_54.3e360697.2f4661fc_boundary-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 17 13:18:38 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1HLILSF013401; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 13:18:22 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1HLIJ84013365; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 13:18:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 13:18:19 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 12:17:53 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Silicon as an energy storage medium Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57850 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 2:33 AM 2/16/5, Nick Palmer wrote: >This looks like a good way of "transporting" renewable energy (in this >case from hot sunny countries). > >Nick > > >http://www.dbresearch.com/PROD/DBR_INTERNET_EN-PROD/PROD0000000000079095.pdf Sorry for the delay in responding to this. This is an excellent and stimulating paper. I did not get around to reading this sooner due to my typical bumbling around. This is a very well developed concept with many robust positive ramifications. It clearly shows a means of transporting energy long range and storing energy that is highly compatible with an otherwise principly hydrogen economy and which is also achievable by engineering using existing principles and processes. This closes the gap on the critical missing functions for a global renewable energy economy - long range transportation and storage. It also utilizes solar energy and equatorial regions, which is a good compliment to the extensive energy available from wind and the good thermodynamic conditions in polar regions. This seems to absolutely nail down the fact that a global carbon free renewable energy economy is feasible now if the political will exists to make it so. Some first impressions follow. There are clearly risks associated with transporting silicon by ship. As the author points out, silcon combusts spontaneously in air and produces ammonia in the presence of water. The author points out that this risk can be minimized for handling purposes by crystalization and occupation of the surface sites. Still, a ship grounding accident could be very hazardous, but nothing like the Exxon Valdez in the way of a long term environmental hazard, so that is a huge improvement. Unloading or handling solid silicon (in an inert invironment?) might be a significant engineering and safety challenge, though maybe those problems would be minimal if the silicon is hermetically containerized or encapsulated. Loading and unloading would be greatly facilitated by using a liquid technology. There is still missing a good technology for vehicle fueling, which might be handled by LN2, etc., but which might also be handled by a silicon compound. Given that silicon is so similar to carbon energetically, I have to wonder if it is not economically possible to hydrogenate it to make a liquid which is biodegradeable or at least which decomposes to SiO2 and water fairly quickly, i.e. in a matter of months. Silane (SiH4) can clearly be produced, and is environmentally friendly, but it has all the shipping and storage problems associated with natural gas. I don't know what problems are associated with tetrasilane (Si4H10) production, or how environmentally degradeable it is, but it boils at 84.3 deg. C. so can be shipped and stored as a liquid. It appears the principle idea proposed for obtaining the energy of Si was the production of ammonia. The following information was given: Compound Energy to produce 1 g hydrogen -------- ------------------------------ Water 143 kJ Methane 18.75 kJ Ammonia 15.4 kJ The ability to produce ammonia is significant in that is serves as a feedstock for furtilizer production and many other things. Since ammonia is valuable in its own right as a feedstock, and energetically valuable as well, the idea of producing ammonia in windfarms and shipping and storing as a liuid may not be totally impracticable (though the very thought makes me uncomfortable!) There have been attempts at producing ammonia powered fuel cells, but this has not worked out AFIK. Hyrdazine (N2H4), which can be produced from ammonia does work in fuel cells by: N2H4 + O2 -> N2 + 2H2O but does not strike me as a good approach for vehicles due to the toxicity and other problems with N2H4. It seems reasonable that Si and/or NH3 can be used for long range trades, and bulk electrical energy production. It may be reasonable that LN2 or liquified air be produced in a local fashion for vehicle propulsion. Direct electricity generation by wind or solar could be backed by energy storage involving Si or NH3 related storage and generation facilites. Nuclear can continue to be used for electical generation and possibly for hydrogen or NH3 production for energy storage or transportation, and furtilizer production. For intermediate energy transportation by ground, hydrogen can be piped directly. A carbon free global energy supply is seeming to be a very real possibility through only the application of existing technology. This is an incredibly wonderful possibility. The development of new technologies, like an effective hydrogen storage medium, room temperature superconductors, or cold fusion, only enhance these possibilites. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 17 13:52:09 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1HLppSF031673; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 13:51:51 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1HLpkgw031629; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 13:51:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 13:51:46 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001901c5153a$d7e54320$0600a8c0 nixlaptop> From: "Nick Palmer" To: References: Subject: Horizon Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 21:51:27 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57851 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Well, they didn't find any neutrons above background using more sophisticated neutron detection... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 17 14:01:53 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1HM1QSF004559; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 14:01:26 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1HM1Lfb004483; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 14:01:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 14:01:21 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050217165942.02b1b1a8 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 17:00:56 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Horizon In-Reply-To: <001901c5153a$d7e54320$0600a8c0 nixlaptop> References: <001901c5153a$d7e54320$0600a8c0 nixlaptop> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_87182703==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57852 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_87182703==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Nick Palmer wrote: >Well, they didn't find any neutrons above background using more >sophisticated neutron detection... I take it you are describing the BBC program. Who are "they"? What did they conclude? Please give us a little more detail. - Jed --=====================_87182703==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Nick Palmer wrote:

Well, they didn't find any neutrons above background using more sophisticated neutron detection...

I take it you are describing the BBC program. Who are "they"? What did they conclude? Please give us a little more detail.

- Jed


--=====================_87182703==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 17 14:05:36 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1HM5JSF007830; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 14:05:20 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1HM5I7m007813; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 14:05:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 14:05:18 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Baronvolsung aol.com Message-ID: Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 17:05:04 EST Subject: Re: Emailing: ethics To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_fb.6afaac9d.2f466f10_boundary" X-Mailer: 6.0 sub 10578 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57853 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --part1_fb.6afaac9d.2f466f10_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/17/05 9:10:57 AM Pacific Standard Time, walhalla cvtv.net writes: > > > Setting the Standard > Code of Ethics and Business Conduct > > Thanks for this post which I can use for my company ethics. From my understanding many companies, individuals, and organizations are controlled, threatened and forced by governments which have no ethics to often do some of the unethical things that they may do. I proposed that a Department of Ethics be added to the USA constitution and government, where the Department of Ethics monitors and educates all government agents on ethical principles, and modern principles of positive ruler ship, and also defends the individual as well as people's rights by means of petition, and monitors classified government activities to make sure they do not violate rights and are ethical. Baron Von Volsung, www.rhfweb.com\baron, Email: www.rhfweb.com\emailform.html President Thomas D. Clark, Email: www.rhfweb.com\emailform.html, Personal Web Page: www.rhfweb.com\personal New Age Production's Inc., www.rhfweb.com\newage Star Haven Community Services, at www.rhfweb.com\sh. Radiation Health Foundation Trust at www.rhfweb.com Making a difference one person at a time Get informed. Inform others. --part1_fb.6afaac9d.2f466f10_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 2/17/05 9:10:57 AM Paci= fic Standard Time, walhalla cvtv.net writes:


&nbs= p;            &n= bsp;    


Setting the Standard
Code of Ethics and Business Conduct




Thanks for this post which I can use for my company ethics.  From m= y understanding many companies, individuals, and organizations are controlle= d, threatened and forced by governments  which have no ethics to often=20= do some of the unethical things that they may do.  I proposed that a De= partment of Ethics be added to the USA constitution and government, where th= e Department of Ethics monitors and educates all government agents on ethica= l principles, and modern principles of positive ruler ship, and also defends= the individual as well as people's rights by means of petition, and monitor= s classified government activities to make sure they do not violate rights a= nd are ethical.  


Baron Von Volsung, www.rhfweb.co= m\baron, Email: www.rhf= web.com\emailform.html=20
President Thomas D. Clark, Email: www.rhfweb.com\emailform.html,=20
Personal Web Page: www.rhfweb= .com\personal=20
New Age Production's Inc., www.= rhfweb.com\newage=20
Star Haven Community Services, at w= ww.rhfweb.com\sh.=20
Radiation Health Foundation Trust at = www.rhfweb.com=20

Making a difference one person at a time=20
Get informed. Inform others.=20

--part1_fb.6afaac9d.2f466f10_boundary-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 17 14:08:49 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1HM8YSF009607; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 14:08:34 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1HM8Ul5009565; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 14:08:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 14:08:30 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050217220456.006833c4 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 22:04:56 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Horizon Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57854 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 05:00 pm 17-02-05 -0500, you wrote: >Nick Palmer wrote: > >>Well, they didn't find any neutrons above background using more >>sophisticated neutron detection... > >I take it you are describing the BBC program. Who are "they"? What did they >conclude? Please give us a little more detail. > >- Jed > http://www.bbc.co.uk/sn/tvradio/programmes/horizon/experiment_prog_summary.shtml An except from the above: ================================================= The experiment was carried out by Seth Putterman, one of the world's leading practitioners of sonoluminescence. His data was analysed by a panel in the UK that included experts in sonoluminescence and neutron detection. They agreed that Putterman had achieved the vital scientific conditions set out in Taleyarkhan's paper and that his experiment was a good attempt at getting the same results. But then it came down to the crucial question: did Putterman find fusion? The result was negative. Recording data nanosecond by nanosecond, Putterman did not find a single neutron close enough to a flash of light for it to be considered the result of nuclear fusion. ================================================= Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 17 14:47:18 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1HMl6SF031713; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 14:47:06 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1HMl3SF031686; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 14:47:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 14:47:03 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <003401c51542$93a24fc0$0600a8c0 nixlaptop> From: "Nick Palmer" To: References: <001901c5153a$d7e54320$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <6.2.0.14.2.20050217165942.02b1b1a8@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Horizon Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 22:46:43 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0031_01C51542.8D626D70" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57855 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0031_01C51542.8D626D70 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Here's the programme details. If you want the programme transcript = it is available on=20 = http://www.bbc.co.uk/sn/tvradio/programmes/horizon/experiment_prog_summar= y.shtml In March 2002, the scientific world was rocked by some astonishing = news: a distinguished US government scientist claimed he had made = nuclear fusion out of sound waves in his laboratory. Rusi Taleyarkhan's breakthrough was such important news because = nuclear fusion is one of the most difficult scientific processes, and = also one of the most coveted. It could solve all of our energy problems = for ever. In principle, sufficient fuel exists on earth to provide = clean, pollution-free energy for billions of people for millions of = years. To make it happen, individual atoms must be slammed into each = other with enough energy to make them fuse together, something that = requires temperatures found only in the core of stars like our Sun - = over 10 million Kelvin. The idea that these temperatures had been = reached in a small scale laboratory using only soundwaves took many = scientists by surprise. To them, fusion projects were huge = multibillion-pound, intergovernmental schemes with the far off goal of = producing energy in several decades time. Taleyarkhan's fusion breakthrough was based on a little-understood = process called sonoluminescence. It's a process that magically = transforms sound waves into flashes of light, focusing the sound energy = into a tiny flickering hot spot inside a bubble. It's been called the = star in a jar. The star in a jar effortlessly reaches temperatures of tens of = thousands of degrees, hotter than the surface of the sun. Many = scientists had wondered if the core of the bubble was even hotter - = maybe even as hot as the core of the sun. If so, fusion would happen = there. But until Taleyarkhan, no one had been able to either prove it or = disprove it. The breakthrough and the paper in Science attracted great = scepticism. When fusion takes place, particles called neutrons are given = off. These are considered by scientists to be the key signature of = nuclear fusion - but measuring neutrons on a small, laboratory scale had = proven notoriously difficult in the past - and had even killed off an = infamous fusion claim in 1989.=20 Many scientists didn't believe that Rusi Taleyarkhan' neutron = detection was absolutely right. So to get to the bottom of the issue, = the experiment was re-run by Mike Saltmarsh and Dan Shapiro, colleagues = at the Oak Ridge National Laboratory. They couldn't find any evidence of = fusion. But the controversy escalated as Taleyarkhan's team stood their = ground and then, two years later, brought out a new paper showing even = more fusion and more neutrons. This paper was thoroughly reviewed and = published in another respected journal.=20 But the the controversy wouldn't die down. Nuclear fusion from = soundwaves would be a huge scientific breakthrough - and to be convinced = of it, many scientists wanted to see better evidence, evidence that was = absolutely incontrovertible. They wanted to look very precisely at the = timing of the neutrons to see just how closely they were related to the = flashes of light. If they occurred at the exact same time, they would finally be = convinced that fusion was taking place. But they wanted timing with = incredible accuracy, that of a nanosecond, or a billionth of a second. = This was one measurement that, though possible, still hadn't been = carried out by Taleyarkhan and his team. So Horizon decided to try to sort out the issue once and for all. = And we commissioned an independent team of leading scientists to conduct = the experiment. Working from the instructions set out in Taleyarkhan's = paper, we assembled the same key scientific conditions to create nuclear = fusion from sonoluminescence. To see if we could find fusion, we = measured the neutrons and the flashes of light simultaneously with = nanosecond accuracy, something that had never been done before. The experiment was carried out by Seth Putterman, one of the = world's leading practitioners of sonoluminescence. His data was analysed = by a panel in the UK that included experts in sonoluminescence and = neutron detection. They agreed that Putterman had achieved the vital = scientific conditions set out in Taleyarkhan's paper and that his = experiment was a good attempt at getting the same results. But then it came down to the crucial question: did Putterman find = fusion? The result was negative. Recording data nanosecond by = nanosecond, Putterman did not find a single neutron close enough to a = flash of light for it to be considered the result of nuclear fusion. We put our conclusion to Taleyarkhan. He said that several = differences in our equipment could have affected our results. It is very = possible that other laboratories around the world will reproduce Rusi = Taleyarkhan's fusion results but until then, the claim will continue to = attract great scepticism from the wider scientific community. =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0031_01C51542.8D626D70 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Here's the programme details. If = you want the=20 programme transcript it is available on

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sn/tvradio/programmes/horizon/exper= iment_prog_summary.shtml

 

In March 2002, the scientific world was rocked by some = astonishing=20 news: a distinguished US government scientist claimed he had made = nuclear=20 fusion out of sound waves in his laboratory.

Rusi Taleyarkhan's breakthrough was such important news because = nuclear=20 fusion is one of the most difficult scientific processes, and also = one of=20 the most coveted. It could solve all of our energy problems for = ever. In=20 principle, sufficient fuel exists on earth to provide clean,=20 pollution-free energy for billions of people for millions of = years.

To make it happen, individual atoms must be slammed into each = other=20 with enough energy to make them fuse together, something that = requires=20 temperatures found only in the core of stars like our Sun =96 over = 10=20 million Kelvin. The idea that these temperatures had been reached = in a=20 small scale laboratory using only soundwaves took many scientists = by=20 surprise. To them, fusion projects were huge multibillion-pound,=20 intergovernmental schemes with the far off goal of producing = energy in=20 several decades time.

Taleyarkhan's fusion breakthrough was based on a = little-understood=20 process called sonoluminescence. It's a process that magically = transforms=20 sound waves into flashes of light, focusing the sound energy into = a tiny=20 flickering hot spot inside a bubble. It's been called the star in = a=20 jar.

The star in a jar effortlessly reaches temperatures of tens of=20 thousands of degrees, hotter than the surface of the sun. Many = scientists=20 had wondered if the core of the bubble was even hotter =96 maybe = even as hot=20 as the core of the sun. If so, fusion would happen there. But = until=20 Taleyarkhan, no one had been able to either prove it or disprove = it.

The breakthrough and the paper in Science attracted great = scepticism.=20 When fusion takes place, particles called neutrons are given off. = These=20 are considered by scientists to be the key signature of nuclear = fusion =96=20 but measuring neutrons on a small, laboratory scale had proven = notoriously=20 difficult in the past =96 and had even killed off an infamous = fusion claim=20 in 1989.

Many scientists didn't believe that Rusi Taleyarkhan' = neutron=20 detection was absolutely right. So to get to the bottom of the = issue, the=20 experiment was re-run by Mike Saltmarsh and Dan Shapiro, = colleagues at the=20 Oak Ridge National Laboratory. They couldn't find any evidence of = fusion.=20 But the controversy escalated as Taleyarkhan's team stood their = ground and=20 then, two years later, brought out a new paper showing even more = fusion=20 and more neutrons. This paper was thoroughly reviewed and = published in=20 another respected journal.=20

But the the controversy wouldn't die down. Nuclear fusion from=20 soundwaves would be a huge scientific breakthrough =96 and to be = convinced=20 of it, many scientists wanted to see better evidence, evidence = that was=20 absolutely incontrovertible. They wanted to look very precisely at = the=20 timing of the neutrons to see just how closely they were related = to the=20 flashes of light.

If they occurred at the exact same time, they would finally be=20 convinced that fusion was taking place. But they wanted timing = with=20 incredible accuracy, that of a nanosecond, or a billionth of a = second.=20 This was one measurement that, though possible, still hadn't been = carried=20 out by Taleyarkhan and his team.

So Horizon decided to try to sort out the issue once and for = all. And=20 we commissioned an independent team of leading scientists to = conduct the=20 experiment. Working from the instructions set out in Taleyarkhan's = paper,=20 we assembled the same key scientific conditions to create nuclear = fusion=20 from sonoluminescence. To see if we could find fusion, we measured = the=20 neutrons and the flashes of light simultaneously with nanosecond = accuracy,=20 something that had never been done before.

The experiment was carried out by Seth Putterman, one of the = world's=20 leading practitioners of sonoluminescence. His data was analysed = by a=20 panel in the UK that included experts in sonoluminescence and = neutron=20 detection. They agreed that Putterman had achieved the vital = scientific=20 conditions set out in Taleyarkhan's paper and that his experiment = was a=20 good attempt at getting the same results.

But then it came down to the crucial question: did Putterman = find=20 fusion? The result was negative. Recording data nanosecond by = nanosecond,=20 Putterman did not find a single neutron close enough to a flash of = light=20 for it to be considered the result of nuclear fusion.

We put our conclusion to Taleyarkhan. He said that several = differences=20 in our equipment could have affected our results. It is very = possible that=20 other laboratories around the world will reproduce Rusi = Taleyarkhan's=20 fusion results but until then, the claim will continue to attract = great=20 scepticism from the wider scientific=20 community.

------=_NextPart_000_0031_01C51542.8D626D70-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 17 14:57:18 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1HMv0SF004551; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 14:57:00 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1HMusE0004474; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 14:56:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 14:56:54 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050217225316.006a868c pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 22:53:16 +0000 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Horizon Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57856 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:46 pm 17-02-05 -0000, you wrote: > Here's the programme details. If you want the programme transcript it is available on > > http://www.bbc.co.uk/sn/tvradio/programmes/horizon/experiment_prog_summary.shtml > Actually, that is the summary, Nick. The transcript is at: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sn/tvradio/programmes/horizon/experiment_trans.shtml Cheers Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 17 15:05:18 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1HN4rSF008594; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 15:04:53 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1HN4nAo008560; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 15:04:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 15:04:49 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <018001c51544$391d2d20$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <2.2.32.20050217220456.006833c4 pop.freeserve.net> Subject: Re: Horizon Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 14:58:40 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57857 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: From: Frank Grimer > ================================================= > The experiment was carried out by Seth Putterman, > one of the world's leading practitioners of > sonoluminescence. His data was analysed by a panel > in the UK that included experts in sonoluminescence > and neutron detection. They agreed that Putterman > had achieved the vital scientific conditions set out > in Taleyarkhan's paper and that his experiment was a > good attempt at getting the same results. > But then it came down to the crucial question: did > Putterman find fusion? The result was negative. > Recording data nanosecond by nanosecond, Putterman > did not find a single neutron close enough to a > flash of light for it to be considered the result > of nuclear fusion. ================================================= One wonders, if the BBC really wanted to present a fair picture of the "DREAM" of the low energy fusion, which is the whole range of LENR - and not just this particular device, why they did not also look at the Fusor: http://fusor.net/ http://www.kronjaeger.com/hv-old/fusor/construction/ If neutrons are all they want to find as proof, these Fusor things are great robust neutron sources, have been built for a few thousand dollars, and with absolutely no doubt where the strong source of neutrons is coming from. And they consume less power than an oven. Even LENR skeptic Scott Little built one that can produce more cumulative neutrons than many Tokomaks have. Guess the answer is, that the BBC was not interested in fairness. Or hopefully, they will add another episode and look at the Fusor and the IPI device. BTW earlier I misstated that: > The Fusor of Miley, Hull etc. has demonstrated rather > conclusively that head-on D fusion of the "warm" ICF variety > requires a minimum of 10 keV per particle. This is incorrect. The Farnsworth-type Fusor (warm fusion) uses 10-25 kilovolt input voltage to the grid itself. However, the average plasma temperature itself is less than 5 eV. In hot fusion the average plasma temperature will be in multi-keV range, which is more than a thousand times higher than in the Fusor. The Fusor can produce 10^8 neutrons per second using tritium, and even small Fusors can produce 10^5 neutrons per second using no tritium. This is far away from net energy breakeven, but it could be quite useful to effectively provide the required make-up neutrons for a subcritical fission reactor. In fact, just using Uranium for the containment structure of a fusor, with a thick external graphite moderator, will get pretty close to breakeven because of the multiplication ratio. In sonofusion, especially using cold acetone, the average temperature of the working medium is far less than 1 eV. The UV light emitted would indicate that high temperature occurs inside the bubble, but that could be secondary re-emission, after the fusion has already occurred. Sonofusion is not claimed to produce the anywhere near the neutrons of the Fusor, but, why didn't the BBC spring for the IPI device? Maybe on rental, if cost was the issue ($250,000 US) - that is, if they were interested in a fair story. Maybe Tessien would even guaranteed a certain amount of neutrons and lend them one - just for the publicity. that would assume that the BBC had done its homework, which is not the case. It has been claimed that in sonofusion, the tritium and 3He ash are produced in equal quantities, as in hot fusion. This can be the case but often it is not the case, depending to some degree on the average temperature of the working medium, as the Taleyarkhan article indicates. I think that there are three different fusion regimes, cold, warm and hot; and that it is a mistake to try to classify the Fusor and sonofusion as "hot fusion" devices just because the fusion ash can sometimes look like the ash from hot fusion. The ash can or cannot look the same, depending on circumstances. If this creates con-fusion, then that only means that you cannot say warm fusion without saying confusion. Jones Hey Frank, does the BBC have a "complaints" department that I can send this message to? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 17 15:34:37 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1HNYRSF022558; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 15:34:27 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1HNYMNi022526; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 15:34:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 15:34:22 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 14:34:11 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Emailing: ethics Resent-Message-ID: <-sp9M.A.2fF.-nSFCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57858 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:08 AM 2/17/5, RC Macaulay wrote: [snip] > ....Honesty: to be truthful in all our endeavors; to be honest and >forthright with one another and with our representatives, customers, >communities, and suppliers. [snip] > > I see NO US government agencies adopt it. They have a " Mission >Statement" BUT NO ETHICS STATEMENT Being forthright with customers (the public), or even interdepartmentally, is not considered a good thing in many government circles. Anything slightly critical is considered "airing the dirty laundry." There was an interesting example of this about a week ago here in Alaska. A security guard at the state office building in Juneau, which houses the legislature, wrote a letter to the editor concerning the fact that drinking occurs openly and regularly in the home of the legislature, while it is forbidden (by statute) in other state buildings. The drinking is not behind closed doors, but right out in the open, in the hallways etc. The result of the guard's letter was swift and predictable. The guard was fired. As a result, he made the local TV news afterward, so that was good. When confronted with adversity, little bureaucratic minds "circle the wagons" and stonewall. They can't handle dissention. It is hard to imagine big bureaucracies adopting standards that encourage forthright speach. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 17 17:32:26 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1I1WD5g014601; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 17:32:14 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1I1WBSR014580; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 17:32:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 17:32:11 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: anomalies on Iapidus Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 12:32:02 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j1I1W75g014516 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57859 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Horace Heffner's message of Wed, 16 Feb 2005 01:13:26 -0900: Hi, [snip] >The velocity of collision of two bodies of mass and radius M, R, m and r >respectivley, is gravitationally bounded (on the low side) by > > V = (2 G M/(R+r))^0.5 + (2 G m/(R+r))^0.5. > >In the case of a body docking with the space station both M and m are very >small. In the case of planet or moon sized collisions, M and m are large, >so the total kinetic energy is large and thus V is large. [snip] Here you assume the low side initial velocity is zero, however it could also be negative (through interaction of one or both with a third body). >From a different point of view, the formula above assume a starting point infinitely far away, however the starting point may be close by, resulting in no opportunity to pick up speed. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 17 17:52:17 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1I1prDT023410; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 17:51:54 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1I1pmdI023331; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 17:51:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 17:51:48 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=QtanRWxUCZUDiM9ywbbJrDz0UJw3+OiQIK+CKTocA/xgdiAmfMMpvLNvjI2q1XylehiGFiM1y8EQU/ZXb54LiX7QRFnizYPalL8MxdMVHRevuSU9ZbUiZveBhLqBFXeuQiQoZNSuh/KXeX3hh2PXSy07emPc8qcH2/P1OMlLStc= ; Message-ID: <20050218015131.44864.qmail web51710.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 17:51:30 -0800 (PST) From: Terry Blanton Subject: How to Destroy the Earth To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57860 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: *And* some things which cannot Destroy the Earth: http://ned.ucam.org/~sdh31/misc/destroy.html My favorite is "Eaten by von Neumann Machines" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 17 18:33:53 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1I2XTDT012120; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 18:33:29 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1I2XLjs012063; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 18:33:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 18:33:21 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <004001c51562$30af2490$0100007f xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: Horizon Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 20:32:32 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_003C_01C5152F.CEAA2330" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-100.0 required=4.0 tests=HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: <7FNpC.A.U8C.uPVFCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57861 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003C_01C5152F.CEAA2330 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_003D_01C5152F.CEAA2330" ------=_NextPart_001_003D_01C5152F.CEAA2330 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankNot being a physicist nor scientist, I look at SL as a cavitation " = event". Back in the 1970's a friend asked me to study a piece of 4" = copper pipe removed from a high rise apartment building's water supply = house pump discharge. The copper pipe was 4 ft long and the top side of = the pipe was completely open. The remaining portion of the pipe interior = appeared to be " shot-peened" by buckshot.The severe cavitation erosion = occurred in one short part of the early morning hours. The pipe was connected to the discharge side of a pressure reducing = valve. During the night as water demand fell to nearly zero, the = regulating valve ahead of the copper pipe, maintained a regulated = downstream pressure against the building riser head pressure. The globe = style valve worked at its maximum lowest range created a sonic noise by = barely being off the valve seat. This sonic effect is well known in = valve applications to cause cavitation and seat " wire draw". Although = the building was almost new, no events as described had previously = occurred. Some of the investigations uncovered a report by a tenent on = the 11th floor that said her dog almost went crazy that early morning = from the wierd sounds in the wall ( the wall housing the water pipe = riser). A chemist friend suggested the event may have been related to = chlorination of the water. In checking with the City of Houston, they = reported they had hyper-chlorinated at the local water booster station a = night prior. In my experience, I have never before nor since, = encountered a like event. I have seem large split case centrifugal pump = bronze impellers that appear "rotted" from cavitation caused by improper = sizing of the suction piping. My next true experience with cavitation came some 7 years ago with a = high speed rotating member being returned from a plant in California. = The UHMW poly material was severely eroded adjacent to each vacuum = producing cavity and appearing to be punched with a extremely sharp pick = some 3/8" deep. The reports that came back to me included a comment they = decided to try reversing rotation to find if a better mix would result. = They were inducting a standard hypochlorite 15% solution thru the = member. The point of this post is to suggest that chlorine may have a place in = examining SL events. I asked Dr.Putterman some years back about some of = his tests and he indicated they tried a thin piece of copper plate in = their test and the SL bubble made an " indent" in the plate. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_003D_01C5152F.CEAA2330 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Not being a physicist nor scientist, I look at SL as a cavitation " = event".=20 Back in the 1970's a friend asked me to study a piece of 4" copper pipe = removed=20 from a high rise apartment building's water supply house pump discharge. = The=20 copper pipe was 4 ft long and the top side of the pipe was completely = open. The=20 remaining portion of the pipe interior appeared to be " shot-peened" by=20 buckshot.The severe cavitation erosion occurred in one short part of the = early=20 morning hours.
 
The pipe was connected to the discharge side of a pressure reducing = valve.=20 During the night as water demand fell to nearly zero, the regulating = valve ahead=20 of the copper pipe, maintained a regulated downstream pressure against = the=20 building riser head pressure. The globe style valve worked at its = maximum lowest=20 range  created a sonic noise by barely being off the = valve seat.=20 This sonic effect is well known in valve applications to cause = cavitation and=20 seat " wire draw". Although the building was almost new, no events as = described=20 had previously occurred. Some of the investigations uncovered a report = by a=20 tenent on the 11th floor that said her dog almost went crazy that early = morning=20 from the wierd sounds in the wall ( the wall housing the water pipe = riser). A=20 chemist friend suggested the event may have been related to chlorination = of the=20 water. In checking with the City of Houston, they reported they had=20 hyper-chlorinated at the local water booster station a night prior. In = my=20 experience, I have never before nor since, encountered a like event. I = have seem=20 large split case centrifugal pump bronze impellers that appear "rotted" = from=20 cavitation caused by improper sizing of the suction piping.
 
My next true experience with cavitation came some 7 years ago with = a high=20 speed rotating member being returned from a plant in California. The = UHMW poly=20 material was severely eroded adjacent to  each vacuum = producing cavity=20 and appearing to be punched with a extremely sharp pick some 3/8" deep. = The=20 reports that came back to me included a comment they decided to try = reversing=20 rotation to find if a better mix would result. They were inducting a = standard=20 hypochlorite 15% solution thru the member.
 
The point of this post is to suggest that chlorine may have a place = in examining SL events. I asked Dr.Putterman some years back about = some of=20 his tests and he indicated they tried a thin piece of copper plate in = their test=20 and the SL bubble made an " indent" in the plate.
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_003D_01C5152F.CEAA2330-- ------=_NextPart_000_003C_01C5152F.CEAA2330 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <003b01c51562$193243b0$0100007f xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_003C_01C5152F.CEAA2330-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 17 19:19:01 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1I3Id32001634; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 19:18:39 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1I3IZ7s001593; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 19:18:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 19:18:35 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Horizon Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 22:19:37 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <004001c51562$30af2490$0100007f xptower> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57862 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hey RC, You write: >The point of this post is to suggest that chlorine >may have a place in examining SL events. I seem to remember free hydrogen and chlorine recombining with greater brisance and at lower energies than hydrogen and oxygen. Perhaps that is why when you loaded the water with chlorine you saw more SL. Also, the byproduct is HCl which would further erode the copper pipe. A question for you, what is "wire draw"? K. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 17 19:56:45 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1I3uN8N023804; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 19:56:27 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1I3uKHJ023763; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 19:56:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 19:56:20 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001001c5156d$c62db530$52027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: Horizons Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 21:56:04 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000C_01C5153B.7AAC8EB0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-99.5 required=4.0 tests=HTML_20_30,HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57863 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C5153B.7AAC8EB0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000D_01C5153B.7AAF9BF0" ------=_NextPart_001_000D_01C5153B.7AAF9BF0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankHiya Keith, Wire draw is valve "lingo" for describing cavitation effects that = damage a valve seat by a cutting action that sometimes looks like a = razor blade had cut across the seat face. Valve sizing is important ,not = only for flow control, but also to recognize an extreme high = differential pressure across the valve invites cavitation. In valves the = high pitched sound is a clue of a cavitation event. In pumps , it sounds = like marbles or gravel flowing in the volute of the pump. True about HCL. I do recall the copper pipe appeared to be " rotted" as = well as " shot peened". We continue to observe " events" in our applied research project in = vortex reactors for seawater pretreatment to reduce mineral content = prior to the filters ahead of the reverse osmosis membranes ( a major = DeSal headache). A bottomless pit where money disappears and results = just tantalizing enough to stay the course. Its good we have no external = research funding that requires an accounting.=20 Its no wonder Universities become paranoid from explaining " we're still = looking for answers" Richard=20 ------=_NextPart_001_000D_01C5153B.7AAF9BF0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Hiya Keith,
 
Wire draw is  valve "lingo" for describing cavitation effects = that=20 damage a valve seat by a cutting action that sometimes looks like a = razor blade=20 had cut across the seat face. Valve sizing is important ,not only for = flow=20 control, but also to recognize an extreme high differential pressure = across the=20 valve invites cavitation. In valves the high pitched sound is a clue of = a=20 cavitation event. In pumps , it sounds like marbles or gravel = flowing=20 in the volute of the pump.
 
True about HCL. I do recall the copper pipe appeared to be " = rotted" as=20 well as " shot peened".
 
We continue to observe " events" in our  applied research = project in=20 vortex reactors for seawater pretreatment to reduce mineral content = prior to the=20 filters ahead of the reverse osmosis membranes ( a major DeSal = headache). A=20 bottomless pit where money disappears and results just tantalizing = enough to=20 stay the course. Its good we have no external research funding that = requires an=20 accounting.
Its no wonder Universities become paranoid from explaining " = we're=20 still looking for answers"
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_000D_01C5153B.7AAF9BF0-- ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C5153B.7AAC8EB0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000b01c5156d$c4f905c0$52027841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C5153B.7AAC8EB0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 17 23:39:59 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1I7dmTt014401; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 23:39:49 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1I7dkFO014363; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 23:39:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 23:39:46 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 22:39:35 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: anomalies on Iapidus Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57864 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:32 PM 2/18/5, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >In reply to Horace Heffner's message of Wed, 16 Feb 2005 01:13:26 -0900: >Hi, >[snip] >>The velocity of collision of two bodies of mass and radius M, R, m and r >>respectivley, is gravitationally bounded (on the low side) by >> >> V = (2 G M/(R+r))^0.5 + (2 G m/(R+r))^0.5. >> >>In the case of a body docking with the space station both M and m are very >>small. In the case of planet or moon sized collisions, M and m are large, >>so the total kinetic energy is large and thus V is large. >[snip] >Here you assume the low side initial velocity is zero, however it could >also be negative (through interaction of one or both with a third body). >>From a different point of view, the formula above assume a starting point >>infinitely far away, however the starting point may be close by, >>resulting in no opportunity to pick up speed. That is true. A three body interaction close to Iapidus could produce a lower energy collision. The third body might carry away much of the momentum, as viewed from Iapidus' inertial frame, or the momentum and energy of objects moving in opposed directions could be spent in a head-on collision close to Iapidus, spraying it with debris. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 18 01:35:58 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1I9ZhTt026559; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 01:35:44 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1I9ZefR026530; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 01:35:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 01:35:40 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050218093201.0069d744 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 09:32:01 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Horizon Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57865 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 02:58 pm 17-02-05 -0800, Jones wrote: >One wonders, if the BBC really wanted to present a fair >picture of the "DREAM" of the low energy fusion, which is >the whole range of LENR - and not just this particular >device, why they did not also look at the Fusor: >http://fusor.net/ >http://www.kronjaeger.com/hv-old/fusor/construction/ > >If neutrons are all they want to find as proof, these Fusor >things are great robust neutron sources, have been built for >a few thousand dollars, and with absolutely no doubt where >the strong source of neutrons is coming from. And they >consume less power than an oven. Even LENR skeptic Scott >Little built one that can produce more cumulative neutrons >than many Tokomaks have. > >Guess the answer is, that the BBC was not interested in >fairness. Or hopefully, they will add another episode and >look at the Fusor and the IPI device. > >BTW earlier I misstated that: > >> The Fusor of Miley, Hull etc. has demonstrated rather >> conclusively that head-on D fusion of the "warm" ICF >variety >> requires a minimum of 10 keV per particle. > >This is incorrect. The Farnsworth-type Fusor (warm fusion) >uses 10-25 kilovolt input voltage to the grid itself. >However, the average plasma temperature itself is less than >5 eV. > >In hot fusion the average plasma temperature will be in >multi-keV range, which is more than a thousand times higher >than in the Fusor. > >The Fusor can produce 10^8 neutrons per second using >tritium, and even small Fusors can produce 10^5 neutrons per >second using no tritium. This is far away from net energy >breakeven, but it could be quite useful to effectively >provide the required make-up neutrons for a subcritical >fission reactor. In fact, just using Uranium for the >containment structure of a fusor, with a thick external >graphite moderator, will get pretty close to breakeven >because of the multiplication ratio. > >In sonofusion, especially using cold acetone, the average >temperature of the working medium is far less than 1 eV. The >UV light emitted would indicate that high temperature occurs >inside the bubble, but that could be secondary re-emission, >after the fusion has already occurred. Sonofusion is not >claimed to produce the anywhere near the neutrons of the >Fusor, but, why didn't the BBC spring for the IPI device? >Maybe on rental, if cost was the issue ($250,000 US) - that >is, if they were interested in a fair story. Maybe Tessien >would even guaranteed a certain amount of neutrons and lend >them one - just for the publicity. that would assume that >the BBC had done its homework, which is not the case. > >It has been claimed that in sonofusion, the tritium and 3He >ash are produced in equal quantities, as in hot fusion. This >can be the case but often it is not the case, depending to >some degree on the average temperature of the working >medium, as the Taleyarkhan article indicates. > >I think that there are three different fusion regimes, cold, >warm and hot; and that it is a mistake to try to classify >the Fusor and sonofusion as "hot fusion" devices just >because the fusion ash can sometimes look like the ash from >hot fusion. The ash can or cannot look the same, depending >on circumstances. > >If this creates con-fusion, then that only means that you >cannot say warm fusion without saying confusion. > >Jones > >Hey Frank, does the BBC have a "complaints" department that >I can send this message to? It sure does. 8-) http://www.bbc.co.uk/complaints/ Cheers Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 18 06:04:40 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1IE4WTt002065; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 06:04:33 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1IE4UfK002049; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 06:04:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 06:04:30 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050218090240.029779b0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 09:04:21 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Comments, including Josephson's, on BBC Message Board Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <9NHnGD.A.9f.uXfFCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57866 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: See: http://www.bbc.co.uk/cgi-perl/h2/h2.cgi?state=threads&board=science.headlines Select the second item, "Fusion in a bubble" (Grizzly Adams) - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 18 06:56:57 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1IEuqTt028393; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 06:56:53 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1IEtWcf027943; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 06:55:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 06:55:32 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050218095259.029c04d8 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 09:55:12 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Evangelical environmentalists Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57868 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: "Evangelical environmentalist" sounds like a contradiction of terms, but it isn't. Yesterday I was wondering how we can find the 1/2 of Christians you think might support us. Then I found the attached Washington Post article. I will contact some of these people. See also: http://www.cpjustice.org/ - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 18 06:59:35 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1IEx0Tt029420; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 06:59:04 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1IEvZvx028768; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 06:57:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 06:57:35 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050218095550.029cb898 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 09:57:04 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Evangelical environmentalists Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_4242453==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57869 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_4242453==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed That message was supposed to be directed to Ed Storms, but it certainly applies to everyone else. The Washington Post article is here: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A1491-2005Feb5.html - Jed --=====================_4242453==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" That message was supposed to be directed to Ed Storms, but it certainly applies to everyone else. The Washington Post article is here:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A1491-2005Feb5.html

- Jed
--=====================_4242453==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 18 07:03:05 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1IF06U1030609; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 07:02:58 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1IERdMW012245; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 06:27:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 06:27:39 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=OjwhusMgwUvmd019wa872n66t9DGD78UNmXyIYJOrGCpnUn+fmHsswRzxOFKv/D9; Message-ID: <410-220052518132658470 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: ZPE-Pumped Cryogenic Mass Increase Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 07:26:58 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9407b4c44a6d6cbe4bb5bd3f0943634d8ea350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.117.138 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57867 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII This is a site that I found while exploring water anomalies. http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/water/explan3.html There is no reason to expect a ZPE Mass-Change Anomaly until there is a "trigger" to dump the mass increase such that it reverts to the initial value. At 1.0 ev (1.6e-19 joule) ZPE-Pumped increase (1.777e-36 Kg) a kilogram of water could store 5.35 Megajoule. or 2,300 BTU/lb. To get from 20 C down to the - 77 C Dry Ice Acetone ice bath temperature you need to extract 0.573 Megajoule/kg of water. Then let room air provide the heat to bring it back up to 20 C, before doing whatever to trigger the heat dump as the mass reverts to it's original value. The Cryogenic Mass Change (weight increase/decrease) should be about 6.0e-8 grams per Kilogram of ice. DO NOT DO THIS! http://jchemed.chem.wisc.edu/JCESoft/CCA/CCA2/MAIN/ICEBOMB/CD2R1.HTM Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
This is a site that I found while exploring water anomalies.
 
 
There is no reason to expect a ZPE Mass-Change Anomaly until
there is a "trigger" to dump the mass increase such that it reverts to
the initial value.
At 1.0 ev (1.6e-19 joule) ZPE-Pumped increase (1.777e-36 Kg) a kilogram of
water could store 5.35 Megajoule. or 2,300 BTU/lb.
 
To get from 20 C down to the - 77 C Dry Ice Acetone ice bath temperature
you need to extract 0.573 Megajoule/kg of water.
 
Then let room air provide the heat to bring it back up to 20 C, before doing
whatever to trigger the heat dump as the mass reverts to it's original value.
 
 
The Cryogenic Mass Change (weight increase/decrease) should be about  6.0e-8 grams per Kilogram of ice.
 
DO NOT DO THIS!
 
 
Frederick
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 18 07:08:27 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1IF8DTt001118; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 07:08:14 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1IF6q1e000607; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 07:06:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 07:06:52 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 10:06:40 -0500 From: Erikbaard aol.com To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Evangelical environmentalists MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <1E9326AE.33973600.0242793D aol.com> X-Mailer: Atlas Mailer 2.0 X-AOL-IP: 199.219.152.29 X-AOL-Language: english Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57870 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I posted on this issue earlier. A useful link is: http://www.creationcare.org/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 18 07:47:17 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1IFkjTt021813; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 07:46:45 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1IFkg64021767; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 07:46:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 07:46:42 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050218102644.029cb138 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 10:46:23 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Evangelical environmentalists In-Reply-To: <1E9326AE.33973600.0242793D aol.com> References: <1E9326AE.33973600.0242793D aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_7198781==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57871 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_7198781==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Erikbaard aol.com wrote: >I posted on this issue earlier. A useful link is: > >http://www.creationcare.org/ Hey, Erik. Do you know how to talk to these people, by any chance? Do you speak their lingo? If so, please introduce this subject to them. Have them read my book. The last chapters may speak to some of their concerns. Seriously, these people's beliefs and thought processes are so different from mine, I have no clue how I might persuade them to look at cold fusion. There is a very nice fellow promoting my book with some of them. He happens to be a rabid creationist. I copied one of his letters to Ed Storms the other day, and we agree that he is mentally on a different planet. I would not want to get into an argument with him. I sincerely appreciate his concern for the environment and his efforts to promote cold fusion. I am always willing to compromise and find common ground with other people. But I do not know how to write a presentation that might convince someone with this belief system. Seriously, I would appreciate advice from any other readers here with connections or a religious bent. No offense meant. - Jed --=====================_7198781==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Erikbaard aol.com wrote:

I posted on this issue earlier. A useful link is:

http://www.creationcare.org/

Hey, Erik. Do you know how to talk to these people, by any chance? Do you speak their lingo? If so, please introduce this subject to them. Have them read my book. The last chapters may speak to some of their concerns.

Seriously, these people's beliefs and thought processes are so different from mine, I have no clue how I might persuade them to look at cold fusion. There is a very nice fellow promoting my book with some of them. He happens to be a rabid creationist. I copied one of his letters to Ed Storms the other day, and we agree that he is mentally on a different planet. I would not want to get into an argument with him. I sincerely appreciate his concern for the environment and his efforts to promote cold fusion. I am always willing to compromise and find common ground with other people. But I do not know how to write a presentation that might convince someone with this belief system.

Seriously, I would appreciate advice from any other readers here with connections or a religious bent. No offense meant.

- Jed
 --=====================_7198781==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 18 08:13:46 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1IGDYTt006060; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 08:13:35 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1IGDWdN006041; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 08:13:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 08:13:32 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <005e01c515d3$f1bff8a0$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050218090240.029779b0 pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Comments, including Josephson's, on BBC Message Board Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 08:07:27 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57872 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Well I signed up for the Beeb message board and posted my 2 pence worth... ...but was in good company, as Jed mentioned, as Prof. Brian Josephson, Cambridge expressed his opinion also. Jones ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jed Rothwell" > See: > http://www.bbc.co.uk/cgi-perl/h2/h2.cgi?state=threads&board=science.headlines > Select the second item, "Fusion in a bubble" (Grizzly Adams) > - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 18 08:49:21 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1IGn9Tt022478; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 08:49:09 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1IGn7La022462; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 08:49:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 08:49:07 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Baronvolsung aol.com Message-ID: Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 11:48:52 EST Subject: Re: Secure & self-sustaining mini-mega pyramid communities To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_c8.58edbc14.2f477674_boundary" X-Mailer: 6.0 sub 10578 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57873 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --part1_c8.58edbc14.2f477674_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/17/05 1:10:27 PM Pacific Standard Time, Baronvolsung aol.com writes: > 2. The pyramids use saucer domes to grow foods. If the saucer domes are > made to be sealed and floatable as well as flyable, then they can also be used > as an emergency center for the pyramid communities to also relocate to if the > pyramid is damaged. > The below text should be added to the above comment: The domes may be made of translucent metals with sliding metal doors to let in sunlight or the domes may use solar panels on the outside of the dome and energy crystals on the inside to provide natural sunlight to the plants in the metalic domes. If the saucer domes are kept small in size, such as 1 or 2 acres in size, then the domes are presently practical to build. Later as energy to matter, teleportation, and matter magnification technologies are perfected then the domes can be made larger in size from small scale models. The domes may use the technologies below: The New Russian Electret New solar cell is 30 percent efficient Antigravity http://homepage.ntlworld.com/ufophysics/ufoplasmaengine.htm UFO Plasma Engine and Dr. Jean-Pierre Petit's current MHD Research Sonic powered fusionRoom-Temperature Superconductor Invented 25 Years Ago Harvesting the Sun... on the cheap [Best Use for Wind energy? ] Additonal Comments: 4. The mini-mega pyramidal cities may be developed by first hiring architects and engineers to construct a computer model from which a small scale model (1/10th the size) prototype mini-pyramidal city and farming domes may be constructed to test their properties, to then develop a another larger prototype scale model (1/4 the size) to test the properties and perfect them, before a full scale pyramidal city and farming domes may be built. Baron Von Volsung, www.rhfweb.com\baron, Email: www.rhfweb.com\emailform.html President Thomas D. Clark, Email: www.rhfweb.com\emailform.html, Personal Web Page: www.rhfweb.com\personal New Age Production's Inc., www.rhfweb.com\newage Star Haven Community Services, at www.rhfweb.com\sh. Radiation Health Foundation Trust at www.rhfweb.com Making a difference one person at a time Get informed. Inform others. --part1_c8.58edbc14.2f477674_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message=20= dated 2/17/05 1:10:27 PM Pacific Standard Time, Baronvolsung aol.com writes:


2. The pyramids use saucer=20= domes to grow foods. If the saucer domes are made to be sealed and floatable= as well as flyable, then they can also be used as an emergency center for t= he pyramid communities to also relocate to if the pyramid is damaged.=20


The below text should be added to the above comment:

The domes may be made of translucent metals with sliding metal doors to=20= let in sunlight or the domes may use solar panels on  the outside of th= e dome and energy crystals on the inside to provide natural sunlight to the=20= plants in the metalic domes.   If the saucer domes are kept small=20= in size, such as 1 or 2 acres in size, then the domes are presently practica= l to build.  Later as energy to matter, teleportation, and  matter= magnification technologies are perfected then the domes can be made larger=20= in size from small scale models.  The domes may use the technologies be= low:

The New Russian= Electret =20
           New solar cell is 30 percent ef= ficient =20
            = ;Antigravity =20= http://homepage.ntlworld.com/ufophysics/ufoplasmaengine.htm UFO Pl= asma Engine and Dr. Jean-Pierre Petit's current MHD Research Sonic powered fusionRoom-Temperature Superconductor Invented 25 Ye= ars Ago Harvesting the Sun= ... on the cheap =20
    [= Best Use for Wind energy? ] =20

Additonal Comments:

4. The mini-mega pyramidal cities may be developed by first hiring archi= tects and engineers to construct a computer model from which a small scale m= odel (1/10th the size) prototype mini-pyramidal city and farming domes may b= e constructed to test their properties, to then develop a another larger pro= totype scale model  (1/4 the size) to test the properties and perfect t= hem, before a full scale pyramidal city and farming domes may be built.


Baron Von Volsung, www.rhfweb.co= m\baron, Email: www.rhf= web.com\emailform.html=20
President Thomas D. Clark, Email: www.rhfweb.com\emailform.html,=20
Personal Web Page: www.rhfweb= .com\personal=20
New Age Production's Inc., www.= rhfweb.com\newage=20
Star Haven Community Services, at w= ww.rhfweb.com\sh.=20
Radiation Health Foundation Trust at = www.rhfweb.com=20

Making a difference one person at a time=20
Get informed. Inform others.=20
--part1_c8.58edbc14.2f477674_boundary-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 18 09:17:08 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1IHGfTt005876; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 09:16:42 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1IHGZFR005817; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 09:16:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 09:16:35 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050218121339.02b6acf0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 12:16:12 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com, Russ George From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Interesting remarks from R. George about BBC Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_12588718==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57874 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_12588718==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Here are some comments from Russ George "Interesting BBC transcript, I have been involved for a few days informing the BBC of how Putterman is Taleyarkhan's most ardent competitor . . . It seems Putterman excluded measurement of neutrons at any time save the instant of the flash. He imposed the perfect neutron flash coincidence on the test. This is of course bullshit as there is no reason to insist that the flash is timed with maximum density in the bubble, indeed some reports have the flash away from this point in time." My response to Russ: Wow! I never thought of that. Very interesting -- and plausible. That explains a lot. - Jed --=====================_12588718==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Here are some comments from Russ George

"Interesting BBC transcript, I have been involved for a few days informing the BBC of how Putterman is Taleyarkhan's most ardent competitor . . . It seems Putterman excluded measurement of neutrons at any time save the instant of the flash. He imposed the perfect neutron flash coincidence on the test. This is of course bullshit as there is no reason to insist that the flash is timed with maximum density in the bubble, indeed some reports have the flash away from this point in time."
 
My response to Russ:

Wow! I never thought of that. Very interesting -- and plausible. That explains a lot.

- Jed
--=====================_12588718==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 18 09:26:41 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1IHQETt012959; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 09:26:15 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1IHQ5W8012868; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 09:26:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 09:26:05 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Baronvolsung aol.com Message-ID: <8a.20f0437f.2f477f1b aol.com> Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 12:25:47 EST Subject: Re: Secure & self-sustaining mini-mega pyramid communities To: vortex-l eskimo.com CC: ThomasClark123 aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_8a.20f0437f.2f477f1b_boundary" X-Mailer: 6.0 sub 10578 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57875 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --part1_8a.20f0437f.2f477f1b_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/17/05 1:10:27 PM Pacific Standard Time, Baronvolsung aol.com writes: > 2. The pyramids use saucer domes to grow foods. The saucer domes use hydroponics, and enclosed, energized, and pressurized environments to accelerate food growth and increase size by using different florescent and pressure energy fields to activate plant genes to grow larger, and accelerate the speed of time to cause the plants to grow larger and faster. Konstantine Meyl, in his book scalar waves details the mathematical energy equations that can be used to accelerate time by means of energy fields, and to cause objects to grow larger. We also need to ensure that the proper number of neutrinos are placed into the domes, since the plants use the neutrinos to grow. Farming fields which are not enclosed by saucer domes may use solar panels when they become less expensive, windmills, and the Russian electorate energy crystals connected to the antennas placed around the farming fields into the ground 5 feet and above the ground 10 feet to project an energy field which is in the range of the crops ideal biological energy environment from antenna to antenna creating a square energy field that completely encloses the farm fields to filter out harmful pollutants in the air, create ideal plant growing conditions, and to be used to warm the crops in the winter. We also need to ensure that the energy force fields do not jam out neutrinos that the crops need to use to grow. Baron Von Volsung, www.rhfweb.com\baron, Email: www.rhfweb.com\emailform.html President Thomas D. Clark, Email: www.rhfweb.com\emailform.html, Personal Web Page: www.rhfweb.com\personal New Age Production's Inc., www.rhfweb.com\newage Star Haven Community Services, at www.rhfweb.com\sh. Radiation Health Foundation Trust at www.rhfweb.com Making a difference one person at a time Get informed. Inform others. --part1_8a.20f0437f.2f477f1b_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message=20= dated 2/17/05 1:10:27 PM Pacific Standard Time, Baronvolsung aol.com writes:


2. The pyramids use saucer=20= domes to grow foods.


The saucer domes use hydroponics, and enclosed, energized, and pressuriz= ed environments to accelerate food growth and increase size by using differe= nt florescent and pressure energy fields to activate plant genes to grow lar= ger, and accelerate the speed of time to cause the plants to grow larger and= faster.  Konstantine Meyl, in his book scalar waves details the mathem= atical energy equations that can be used to accelerate time by means of ener= gy fields, and to cause objects to grow larger.  We also need to ensure= that the proper number of neutrinos are placed into the domes, since the pl= ants use the neutrinos to grow.=20

Farming fields which are not enclosed by saucer domes may use solar pane= ls when they become less expensive, windmills, and the Russian electorate en= ergy crystals connected to the antennas placed around the farming fields int= o the ground 5 feet and above the ground 10 feet to project an energy field=20= which is in the range of the crops ideal biological energy environment from=20= antenna to antenna creating a square energy field that completely encloses t= he farm fields to filter out harmful pollutants in the air, create ideal pla= nt growing conditions, and to be used to warm the crops in the winter.  = ;We also need to ensure that the energy force fields do not jam out neutrino= s that the crops need to use to grow.  

Baron Von Volsung, www.rhfweb.co= m\baron, Email: www.rhf= web.com\emailform.html=20
President Thomas D. Clark, Email: www.rhfweb.com\emailform.html,=20
Personal Web Page: www.rhfweb= .com\personal=20
New Age Production's Inc., www.= rhfweb.com\newage=20
Star Haven Community Services, at w= ww.rhfweb.com\sh.=20
Radiation Health Foundation Trust at = www.rhfweb.com=20

Making a difference one person at a time=20
Get informed. Inform others.=20
--part1_8a.20f0437f.2f477f1b_boundary-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 18 09:42:59 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1IHgeTt023182; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 09:42:41 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1IHgceo023162; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 09:42:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 09:42:38 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <00cc01c515e0$6660ba80$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex-l" Cc: References: <410-220052518132658470 earthlink.net> Subject: Re: ZPE-Pumped Cryogenic Mass Increase Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 09:36:37 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57876 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frederick Sparber" > At 1.0 ev (1.6e-19 joule) ZPE-Pumped increase (1.777e-36 Kg) a kilogram of water could store 5.35 Megajoule. or 2,300 BTU/lb. I would suspect that the "pumped mass increase," as you are calling it, due to cryogenic "tempering" would be more than 1 eV, Fred.... although that is very significant in itself. There are new papers on the web which add some support to my contention, posted last year, that the 1420 Mhz (21 cm) line- the so-called CMB (cosmic microwave background) is indeed a relic of ZPE more so than being only a "hydrogen line". The past confusion and common mis-interpretation of this spectrum relating only to hydrogen derives from (mis)assigning cause/effect to the past observations. "The Redshift and Zero Point energy" Barry Setterfield is one of these papers, which again, I am putting a further "spin" on, which some readers will deem to be unwarranted, as it goes beyond accepted physics. http://www.journaloftheoretics.com/Links/Papers/Setter.pdf If there is a source of ZPE (very specific and easily attainable wavelength) at 21 cm, which is only a few degrees above absolute zero, in effective temperature, then any cryo-liquid which is held for extended periods near to this range, even cryo-air, can experience not only mass increase but perhaps the same kind of internal coherency changes which are seen in superconductivity, due to the reverse Maxwellian distribution of the "coldness" which will effect all the molecules in the liquid given enough time. This is one reason, IMHO why you can see explosive failure mechanisms when certain common materials which have known density (phase) changes, are raised suddenly in temperature above any phase. The excess mass energy (probably 3.4 eV) must be suddenly dumped through photon emission, when this happens quickly. This coincides nicely with the implications of Frank Grimer's power law findings wrt beta-aether: http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/water/strange.html Most ZPE is, of course, at much higher effective frequency and very incoherent. But this spectrum, although it is much weaker, can perhaps be accumulative over time, with no outside input, especially when materials which experience numerous phase changes, like water-ice, are held at low temperature for extended periods. It probably also helps to hold the target material in a container which is a cavity resonator for 21 cm. I wish I had appreciated this a few years ago. In effect, what this technique does is "capture time." By that it is meant that it converts a weak energy content (time delineated) into a substantial energy content (time delineated). The beneficiary of this need do nothing but "wait." It just so happens that the thermos jug which I had been using to pick up LN at the local welding shop had an interior dimension of about 3x8 inches. Had it been closer to 2x8, and had I realized that one needs to leave the LN in there as long as possible, I probably would have gotten more repeatable results, which were admittedly inconclusive. Jones "Time" is what you make of it.... Harry Tuttle, ductwork engineer - lost in time From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 18 11:21:48 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1IJLZTt007112; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 11:21:36 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1IJLXNV007086; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 11:21:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 11:21:34 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type; b=DwdnhlfWZRp49q/DbAMIvxhJ9ddLDgzEdMVLrR3jGFKRxaaJpV7ol0eUnsnyig3e; Message-ID: <410-22005251818214320 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: ZPE-Pumped Cryogenic Mass Increase Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 12:21:04 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940c3a6737d13341761831a2a13d287724a350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.162.219 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57877 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Frederick Sparber" > > > At 1.0 ev (1.6e-19 joule) ZPE-Pumped increase (1.777e-36 > Kg) a kilogram of water could store 5.35 Megajoule. or 2,300 > BTU/lb. > > There are new papers on the web which add some support to my > contention, posted last year, that the 1420 Mhz (21 cm) > line- the so-called CMB (cosmic microwave background) is > indeed a relic of ZPE more so than being only a "hydrogen > line". The past confusion and common mis-interpretation of > this spectrum relating only to hydrogen derives from > (mis)assigning cause/effect to the past observations. "The > Redshift and Zero Point energy" Barry Setterfield is one > of these papers, which again, I am putting a further "spin" > on, which some readers will deem to be unwarranted, as it > goes beyond accepted physics. > > http://www.journaloftheoretics.com/Links/Papers/Setter.pdf > Are you suggesting that the Tunguska Event was a ZPE-Pumped snowball from Hell, Jones? :-) > > > The excess mass energy (probably 3.4 eV) must be suddenly > dumped through photon emission, when this happens quickly. > This coincides nicely with the implications of Frank > Grimer's power law findings wrt beta-aether: > http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/water/strange.html > > In effect, what this technique does is "capture > time." By that it is meant that it converts a weak energy > content (time delineated) into a substantial energy content > (time delineated). The beneficiary of this need do nothing > but "wait." > Then why not cold-tenuous upper atmosphere (time delineation) of water or atmospheric gases that end up in surface-ground water to fuel the Schaeffer, Huffman, Griggs, and Potapov devices, even cavitation-sonoluminescence devices too? Not to mention WIMPS and super-energy cosmic rays. :-) Frederick > > Jones > > "Time" is what you make of it.... > Harry Tuttle, ductwork engineer - lost in time > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 18 12:26:49 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1IKQVTt004343; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 12:26:32 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1IKQOOC004277; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 12:26:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 12:26:24 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <410-220052518202627400 ix.netcom.com> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: aki ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.1.47.0 (Windows) From: "Akira Kawasaki" To: "vortex-l" Subject: FW: WHAT'S NEW Friday, February 18, 2005 Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 12:26:27 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: c4cc7f5f697e8746f66dc3a06d5924d8b868587d26c3ed6145df09db4956ae6f29ca3e42375bd564350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 216.175.106.157 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57878 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > From: What's New > To: Akira Kawasaki Date: 2/18/2005 10:23:43 AM Subject: WHAT'S NEW Friday, February 18, 2005 WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 18 Feb 05 Washington, DC 1. MISSILE DEFENSE: UNTESTED DEFENSE MEETS NON-EXISTENT THREAT. In last Sunday's missile defense test, an interceptor missile again refused to leave its silo. Who can blame it? It's crazy out there. A month ago, a "minor software glitch" caused a malfunction http://www.aps.org/WN/WN05/wn011405.cfm. This time it was a tiny switch in the silo. The Missile Defense Agency doesn't seem worried; tests don't count if they don't get to "the end game" http://www.aps.org/WN/WN02/wn121302.cfm. Does missile defense seem just a little less urgent these days? According to Defense Daily, plans for around-the-clock operation of the system have been dropped in favor of an "emergency alert status" -- no point in turning it on if no one is shooting at us. Maybe North Korea will agree not to launch a surprise attack. At his Tuesday confirmation hearing, Deputy Secretary of State nominee Robert Zoellick said he thinks North Korea is lying about having nukes. President Bush thought Iraq was lying about NOT having nukes. 2. SCIENCE MEETS SOCIETY: IS SCIENCE JUST ANOTHER BELIEF SYSTEM? The 11 Feb 05 issue of Science has an editorial by Alan Leshner, AAAS CEO, "Where Science Meets Society." That's also the theme of next week's AAAS meeting in Washington. Leshner contends that conflicts between science and "certain human beliefs" are on the increase. He thinks bringing scientists and religious leaders together to discuss the relation of scientific advances to "other belief systems" is helpful, and thinks we should "try diplomacy and discussion for a change." In the first place, conflicts are not increasing. Relations have never been better. Skeptics are no longer forced to recant, nor even denied tenure. And as for diplomacy, we could start by negotiating Intelligent Design Theory. Scientists might concede that God created Adam and Eve in exchange for a concession that the serpent evolved by natural selection. 3. GLOBAL CONSCIOUSNESS: JUST ASK YOUR RANDOM NUMBER GENERATOR. Did you know that we all sense the future? Did you know that our minds influence the functioning of machines? If you knew both of these things, you will not be surprised to learn that random number generators around the world anticipated both 9/11 and the Indian Ocean tsunami. The Global Consciousness Project, headed by Dean Radin http://www.aps.org/WN/WN04/wn080604.cfm found these events in the output of 65 RNGs in 41 countries. And this is just the start. Once they refine what constitutes an anomaly in a random signal, they'll be able to predict even the most trivial events -- after they happen. But a more ominous interpretation is that the RTGs are causing these horrific events. A sensible precaution would be to ban the use of all such devices. THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND. Opinions are the author's and not necessarily shared by the University of Maryland, but they should be. --- Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.aps.org/WN To subscribe, send a blank e-mail to: From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 18 14:31:35 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1IMUEFS017794; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 14:31:22 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1IM7Ow0003396; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 14:07:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 14:07:24 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=t/8uBewStYQ/NIIdjD8XX4qq1kqgNzh727rI8aql0Ls1jJNoGwerPAkXiOtF2uhtC2V+6lqx2YneU1jGs/zlwepnc58eCgHFHStPovSDwldNOXGhxCGtjQ5AAA51ZDNrGrvSMqwlA6ngZBJGeMzmHIKrVcESs1EaPPaD04V8aFE= ; Message-ID: <20050218212638.26905.qmail web51709.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 13:26:38 -0800 (PST) From: Terry Blanton Subject: Re: Horizons To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <001001c5156d$c62db530$52027841 xptower> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1334037816-1108761998=:25422" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57879 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-1334037816-1108761998=:25422 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hmmmm. I have had to replace (or grind down) all the seats in the hot water valves of my home faucets to stop them from dripping. The house is over 20 years old and I have been the only owner. The rounded top of the seats had a gap in them about 1 mm wide and they all looked the same. I wonder if this is related? Note, the cold water seats are undamaged. RC Macaulay wrote: BODY { MARGIN-TOP: 25px; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 25px; COLOR: #000000; FONT-FAMILY: Arial, Helvetica}P.msoNormal { MARGIN-TOP: 0px; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 0px; COLOR: #ffffcc; FONT-FAMILY: Helvetica, "Times New Roman"}LI.msoNormal { MARGIN-TOP: 0px; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 0px; COLOR: #ffffcc; FONT-FAMILY: Helvetica, "Times New Roman"}Hiya Keith, Wire draw is valve "lingo" for describing cavitation effects that damage a valve seat by a cutting action that sometimes looks like a razor blade had cut across the seat face. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' --0-1334037816-1108761998=:25422 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Hmmmm.  I have had to replace (or grind down) all the seats in the hot water valves of my home faucets to stop them from dripping.  The house is over 20 years old and I have been the only owner.  The rounded top of the seats had a gap in them about 1 mm wide and they all looked the same.  I wonder if this is related?
 
Note, the cold water seats are undamaged.

RC Macaulay <walhalla cvtv.net> wrote:
Hiya Keith,
 
Wire draw is  valve "lingo" for describing cavitation effects that damage a valve seat by a cutting action that sometimes looks like a razor blade had cut across the seat face.

Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' --0-1334037816-1108761998=:25422-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 18 14:32:34 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1IMWNEs019375; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 14:32:23 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1IMWMNi019353; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 14:32:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 14:32:22 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050218173051.0290c640 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 17:32:13 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Roger Stringham comments on BBC Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_3284750==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: <_ZVOrB.A.VuE.1zmFCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57880 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --=====================_3284750==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Roger Stringham wrote to me: "I am somewhat disappointed in the accuracy and the results but what I am doing is different. Putterman was the wrong choice to perform a neutral experiment. Taleyarkan is chasing a hot fusion." - Jed --=====================_3284750==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Roger Stringham wrote to me:

"I am somewhat disappointed in the accuracy and the results but what I am doing is different.  Putterman was the wrong choice to perform a  neutral experiment. Taleyarkan is chasing a hot fusion."

- Jed
 --=====================_3284750==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 18 14:35:33 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1IMZHEs021092; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 14:35:17 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1IMZGfk021076; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 14:35:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 14:35:16 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <035101c51609$479522c0$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: Trigger from Space Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 14:29:14 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_034E_01C515C6.383480C0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57881 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_034E_01C515C6.383480C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Remember, dear vortex reader, you heard it here first, off the record, = on the QT, and very Hush-Hush.... No its not Roy's famous horse, which by the way is still with us... sort = of: http://www.roadsideamerica.com/pet/trigger.html Nor is it Fred's 'snowball from hell' ;-)=20 One Dec. 26, 2004 a powerful undersea earthquake in the Indian Ocean = that triggered a devastating tsunami. The earthquake has been upgraded = to magnitude 9.0 and is reported to be the strongest the past 40 years. = The tragedy is almost beyond comprehension. It is part of the "human predicament" to always want to assign = cause-and-effect, especially to major catastrophes.=20 http://nichirenscoffeehouse.net/Ryuei/depen-orig.html Consequently, much finger-pointing has already taken place about the = putative cause of this devastating quake, assuming that no deity would = have allowed it, so it must have a sinister cause - some of that = speculation serious, some ludicrous. Exxon has even been blamed for = taking out too much oil from the region. Go figure... even this anti-oil = cynic would scarcely blame big-oil for this kind of thing. This speculation in no way intends to make light of the immensity of = this awful tragedy, but sometimes... if one cannot cry enough, a = sardonic kind of levity is the only consolation ... as the Irish know = well. Not sure where this cause-and-effect observation, now to be added to the = growing list, stands on the ludicrosity-scale, but consider this: =20 A once-in-a-lifetime cosmological event occurred at *about* the same = time as the tsunami, a gigantic' star-quake' which rocked the entire = Milky Way galaxy. It was probably the biggest explosion observed by = human on our planet since Kepler saw a supernova in 1604. Actually the = event itself occurred much earlier, but at light-speed the evidence = arrived here at a remarkably coincidental time.=20 =20 Astronomers have been stunned by the amount of energy released in this = star explosion on the far side of our galaxy, 50,000 light-years away, = which has just now been calculated. The flash of radiation seen on 27 = December was so powerful that it bounced off the Moon and lit up the = Earth's atmosphere. But the gravity wave would have hit here slightly = earlier, as the radiation would have been slowed by intergalactic dust = and relic-hydrogen. The blast occurred on the surface of an exotic star - a super-magnetic = neutron star called SGR 1806-20. If the explosion had been just 10,000 = light-years away, Earth could easily have suffered a mass extinction. = There is such a threat within that distance, by the way. More on that = later.=20 One calculation has the giant flare on SGR 1806-20 unleashing about = 10,000 trillion trillion trillion watts.=20 http://i-newswire.com/pr7466.html Not to mention... the "gravity wave" which could have gotten here first. Jones ------=_NextPart_000_034E_01C515C6.383480C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Remember, dear vortex reader, you heard it here first, off the = record, on=20 the QT, and very Hush-Hush....
 
No its not Roy's famous horse, which by the way is still with us... = sort=20 of:
http://www.roads= ideamerica.com/pet/trigger.html
 
Nor is it Fred's 'snowball from hell'   ;-) 
 
One Dec. 26, 2004 a powerful undersea earthquake in the = Indian=20 Ocean that triggered a devastating tsunami. The earthquake has been = upgraded to=20 magnitude 9.0 and is reported to be the strongest the past 40 = years. The=20 tragedy is almost beyond comprehension.
 
It is part of the "human predicament" to always want to assign=20 cause-and-effect, especially to major catastrophes.
http://nic= hirenscoffeehouse.net/Ryuei/depen-orig.html
 
Consequently, much finger-pointing has already taken place about = the=20 putative cause of this devastating quake, assuming that no deity = would have=20 allowed it, so it must have a sinister cause - some of that = speculation=20 serious, some ludicrous. Exxon has even been blamed for taking out too = much oil=20 from the region. Go figure... even this anti-oil cynic would scarcely = blame=20 big-oil for this kind of thing.
 
This speculation in no way intends to make light of the immensity = of this=20 awful tragedy, but sometimes... if one cannot cry enough, a sardonic = kind of=20 levity is the only consolation ... as the Irish know well.
 
Not sure where this cause-and-effect observation, now to be = added to=20 the growing list, stands on the ludicrosity-scale, but consider=20 this:  
 
A once-in-a-lifetime cosmological event occurred at *about* the = same time=20 as the tsunami, a gigantic' star-quake' which rocked the = entire Milky Way=20 galaxy. It was probably the biggest explosion observed by human on our=20 planet since Kepler saw a supernova in 1604. Actually the = event itself=20 occurred much earlier, but at light-speed the evidence arrived here at a = remarkably coincidental time. 
 
Astronomers have been = stunned=20 by the amount of energy released in this star explosion on the far = side of=20 our galaxy, 50,000 light-years away, which has just now been = calculated. =20 The flash of radiation seen on 27 December was so powerful that it = bounced off=20 the Moon and lit up the Earth's atmosphere. But the gravity wave would = have hit=20 here slightly earlier, as the radiation would have been slowed by = intergalactic=20 dust and relic-hydrogen.
 
The blast occurred on the surface of an exotic star - a = super-magnetic=20 neutron star called SGR 1806-20.  If the explosion had been just = 10,000=20 light-years away, Earth could easily have suffered a mass = extinction. There=20 is such a threat within that distance, by the way. More on that=20 later. 
 
One calculation has the giant flare on SGR 1806-20 unleashing about = 10,000=20 trillion trillion trillion watts.
http://i-newswire.com/pr7466.h= tml
 
Not to mention... the "gravity wave" which could have gotten here=20 first.
 
Jones
------=_NextPart_000_034E_01C515C6.383480C0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 18 14:49:48 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1IMnaEs030113; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 14:49:37 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1IMnZTG030096; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 14:49:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 14:49:35 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20050218224924.96425.qmail web54501.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 14:49:24 -0800 (PST) From: Merlyn Subject: Re: Trigger from Space To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <035101c51609$479522c0$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-765259903-1108766964=:94490" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57882 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-765259903-1108766964=:94490 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Gravitational force is relative to the masses involved and the distance between the centers of mass. Thus for an appreciable change in the gravitational field, you would require a non-uniform explosion and resulting debris field. Um, wouldn't light slow down by more than 0.00002 % traveling through the vast reaches of space? Jones Beene wrote: BODY { BACKGROUND-POSITION: left top; MARGIN-TOP: 25px; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 25px; COLOR: #000000; BACKGROUND-REPEAT: no-repeat; FONT-FAMILY: Arial}Remember, dear vortex reader, you heard it here first, off the record, on the QT, and very Hush-Hush.... No its not Roy's famous horse, which by the way is still with us... sort of: http://www.roadsideamerica.com/pet/trigger.html Nor is it Fred's 'snowball from hell' ;-) One Dec. 26, 2004 a powerful undersea earthquake in the Indian Ocean that triggered a devastating tsunami. The earthquake has been upgraded to magnitude 9.0 and is reported to be the strongest the past 40 years. The tragedy is almost beyond comprehension. It is part of the "human predicament" to always want to assign cause-and-effect, especially to major catastrophes. http://nichirenscoffeehouse.net/Ryuei/depen-orig.html Consequently, much finger-pointing has already taken place about the putative cause of this devastating quake, assuming that no deity would have allowed it, so it must have a sinister cause - some of that speculation serious, some ludicrous. Exxon has even been blamed for taking out too much oil from the region. Go figure... even this anti-oil cynic would scarcely blame big-oil for this kind of thing. This speculation in no way intends to make light of the immensity of this awful tragedy, but sometimes... if one cannot cry enough, a sardonic kind of levity is the only consolation ... as the Irish know well. Not sure where this cause-and-effect observation, now to be added to the growing list, stands on the ludicrosity-scale, but consider this: A once-in-a-lifetime cosmological event occurred at *about* the same time as the tsunami, a gigantic' star-quake' which rocked the entire Milky Way galaxy. It was probably the biggest explosion observed by human on our planet since Kepler saw a supernova in 1604. Actually the event itself occurred much earlier, but at light-speed the evidence arrived here at a remarkably coincidental time. Astronomers have been stunned by the amount of energy released in this star explosion on the far side of our galaxy, 50,000 light-years away, which has just now been calculated. The flash of radiation seen on 27 December was so powerful that it bounced off the Moon and lit up the Earth's atmosphere. But the gravity wave would have hit here slightly earlier, as the radiation would have been slowed by intergalactic dust and relic-hydrogen. The blast occurred on the surface of an exotic star - a super-magnetic neutron star called SGR 1806-20. If the explosion had been just 10,000 light-years away, Earth could easily have suffered a mass extinction. There is such a threat within that distance, by the way. More on that later. One calculation has the giant flare on SGR 1806-20 unleashing about 10,000 trillion trillion trillion watts. http://i-newswire.com/pr7466.html Not to mention... the "gravity wave" which could have gotten here first. Jones Merlyn Magickal Engineer and Technical Metaphysicist --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' --0-765259903-1108766964=:94490 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Gravitational force is relative to the masses involved and the distance between the centers of mass.
Thus for an appreciable change in the gravitational field, you would require a non-uniform explosion and resulting debris field.
 
Um, wouldn't light slow down by more than 0.00002 % traveling through the vast reaches of space? 

Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net> wrote:
Remember, dear vortex reader, you heard it here first, off the record, on the QT, and very Hush-Hush....
 
No its not Roy's famous horse, which by the way is still with us... sort of:
 
Nor is it Fred's 'snowball from hell'   ;-) 
 
One Dec. 26, 2004 a powerful undersea earthquake in the Indian Ocean that triggered a devastating tsunami. The earthquake has been upgraded to magnitude 9.0 and is reported to be the strongest the past 40 years. The tragedy is almost beyond comprehension.
 
It is part of the "human predicament" to always want to assign cause-and-effect, especially to major catastrophes.
 
Consequently, much finger-pointing has already taken place about the putative cause of this devastating quake, assuming that no deity would have allowed it, so it must have a sinister cause - some of that speculation serious, some ludicrous. Exxon has even been blamed for taking out too much oil from the region. Go figure... even this anti-oil cynic would scarcely blame big-oil for this kind of thing.
 
This speculation in no way intends to make light of the immensity of this awful tragedy, but sometimes... if one cannot cry enough, a sardonic kind of levity is the only consolation ... as the Irish know well.
 
Not sure where this cause-and-effect observation, now to be added to the growing list, stands on the ludicrosity-scale, but consider this:  
 
A once-in-a-lifetime cosmological event occurred at *about* the same time as the tsunami, a gigantic' star-quake' which rocked the entire Milky Way galaxy. It was probably the biggest explosion observed by human on our planet since Kepler saw a supernova in 1604. Actually the event itself occurred much earlier, but at light-speed the evidence arrived here at a remarkably coincidental time. 
 
Astronomers have been stunned by the amount of energy released in this star explosion on the far side of our galaxy, 50,000 light-years away, which has just now been calculated.  The flash of radiation seen on 27 December was so powerful that it bounced off the Moon and lit up the Earth's atmosphere. But the gravity wave would have hit here slightly earlier, as the radiation would have been slowed by intergalactic dust and relic-hydrogen.
 
The blast occurred on the surface of an exotic star - a super-magnetic neutron star called SGR 1806-20.  If the explosion had been just 10,000 light-years away, Earth could easily have suffered a mass extinction. There is such a threat within that distance, by the way. More on that later. 
 
One calculation has the giant flare on SGR 1806-20 unleashing about 10,000 trillion trillion trillion watts.
 
Not to mention... the "gravity wave" which could have gotten here first.
 
Jones


Merlyn
Magickal Engineer and Technical Metaphysicist

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Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' --0-765259903-1108766964=:94490-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 18 17:07:58 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1J17m0S023372; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 17:07:49 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1J17Ysc023288; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 17:07:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 17:07:34 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 18:07:32 -0700 Message-Id: <200502181807.AA261882068 mail1.myexcel.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: "Jeff and Dorothy Kooistra" Reply-To: X-Sender: To: Subject: Re: Evangelical environmentalists X-Mailer: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57883 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell said: >I do not know how to write a presentation that might convince someone with >this belief system. > >Seriously, I would appreciate advice from any other readers here with >connections or a religious bent. No offense meant. Step one is to stop thinking of them as being any different than you are in terms of what you want to accomplish vis-a-vis cold fusion. The Christian environmentalist movement, such as it is, goes back many years. Most of their views on the environment are as "liberal" as those of any typical NYC atheist global warming protester. You can talk to the former (or write for them) exactly the same way as you would to the latter. You want a clean environment, so do they. You think CF is a viable technology to pursue to make this happen, try to convince them of that. I'm a Christian Jed. I've read your stuff. I don't think there is much of anything (if anything) you need to change in what you write about CF to these folks. The differences between you and them is largely a matter of motivations. They have religious reasons for wanting to be environmentalists. You have other reasons. But you both rely on the same laws of physics governing the clean technologies. Also, bear in mind that they are not dummies--they are perfectly capable of not giving a damn what your own views are about religion as long as the technology you're pushing helps them toward their goals. Jeff Kooistra From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 18 19:16:56 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1J3GjgQ006886; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 19:16:45 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1J3GhCu006867; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 19:16:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 19:16:43 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: anomalies on Iapidus Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 14:16:35 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <3ibd11hkjqaisgck539d5sr49q4ic7tmps 4ax.com> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j1J3GdgQ006768 Resent-Message-ID: <9NDWB.A.LrB.a-qFCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57884 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Horace Heffner's message of Thu, 17 Feb 2005 22:39:35 -0900: Hi, [snip] >That is true. A three body interaction close to Iapidus could produce a >lower energy collision. The third body might carry away much of the >momentum, as viewed from Iapidus' inertial frame, or the momentum and >energy of objects moving in opposed directions could be spent in a head-on >collision close to Iapidus, spraying it with debris. [snip] Another possibility is that part of two approaching bodies is composed of water ice, which as they collide converts to steam that expands, providing a cushioning buffer between them, slowing their approach, and carrying away some of the kinetic energy of the collision, such that when the rocky bodies collide, the impact is insufficient to melt, or shatter them. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 18 22:09:22 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1J6968g003922; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 22:09:07 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1J693WH003900; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 22:09:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 22:09:03 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20050218220504.04fe6e50 mail.dlsi.net> X-Sender: steven%newenergytimes.com mail.dlsi.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 22:12:44 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Who lives near Spokane, WA? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57885 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Vorts, I am seeking to get coverage of some CF-related news, possibly in Spokane, WA next month. Is there anybody in the area with a digital recorder, a couple of hours of time, and some curiosity? This request comes with no pay but an offer for genuine appreciation and recognition. Reply privately please. Thanks, Steve From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 19 05:53:18 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1JDr58g024387; Sat, 19 Feb 2005 05:53:05 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1JDr3Ad024371; Sat, 19 Feb 2005 05:53:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 05:53:03 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 04:52:58 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: anomalies on Iapidus Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57887 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 2:16 PM 2/19/5, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >In reply to Horace Heffner's message of Thu, 17 Feb 2005 22:39:35 -0900: >Hi, >[snip] >>That is true. A three body interaction close to Iapidus could produce a >>lower energy collision. The third body might carry away much of the >>momentum, as viewed from Iapidus' inertial frame, or the momentum and >>energy of objects moving in opposed directions could be spent in a head-on >>collision close to Iapidus, spraying it with debris. >[snip] >Another possibility is that part of two approaching bodies is composed of >water ice, which as they collide converts to steam that expands, providing >a cushioning buffer between them, slowing their approach, and carrying >away some of the kinetic energy of the collision, such that when the rocky >bodies collide, the impact is insufficient to melt, or shatter them. Yes, that works too. In the case of a close to Iapetus collision of two other bodies, the two initially colliding bodies would have the full gravitational potential of the 3 body interaction converted to heat. Suppose, ignoring for a minute the mass of the evaporated ice, the two approaching bodies might have mass about 1/4 of Iapetus, or about 4.7x10^20 kg. The initial iapetus would have a mass of 9.4x10^20 kg, instead of the final mass of 1.88x10^21 kg. Assume the collision happens at an altitude roughly equal to Iapetus' final radius of 730 km. The collision velocity of the two initial impactors will be conservatively: V = (2 G M/(R))^0.5 V = (2 G (4.7x10^20 kg)/(730 km))^0.5 V = 293 m/s So the energy E converted to heat is: E = 2 * .5 m*V^2 = (4.7x10^20 kg)(293 m/s)^2 = 4x10^25 J Thus the heat per gram H is: H = E/m = (4x10^25 J)/(4.7x10^20 kg) = 8.6 J/g which is not a lot of heat to dissipate, so this could simply result in increased temperature, or as you noted, be dissipated by ice. Even 4 times that number will not produce much incremental temperature. Iapetus is so small one has to wonder how eneough energy is developed to smush two bodies together to make it one spherical body. Looks like the three body theory is not even necessary, unless I have a computation error. Iapetus is not very dense, or very big. See: Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 19 06:16:48 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1JEGb8g002266; Sat, 19 Feb 2005 06:16:38 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1JEGZG1002243; Sat, 19 Feb 2005 06:16:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 06:16:35 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 05:16:30 -0900 To: "Colin Quinney" , From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Trigger from Space Cc: "Jones Beene" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57888 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 3:07 AM 2/19/5, Colin Quinney wrote: >Funny you should mention *gravity wave* Jones... :-) > >http://web.tiscali.it/gravitationaldata/index.htm > Latest new February 13 / 2005. Go to test16.htm > > This is *not* ULF- electromagnetic, but an "M Sensor" here recording (see >graphs on page) during the Sumatra tsunami on Dec 25 / 04. More info on link. > > The physics behind this unusual sensor's mechanism of operation is not >recognized by standard physics. It's controversial. The >author has done extensive recordings over 10 years and claims that his >sensors receive G waves directly. (not seismometer, not radio waves). I >first came across this web site years ago, and so on a whim after reading >Jones' post I just checked it out to see if that Quasar Quake (previous post) >registered on his any of sensors. This is really amazing stuff. There is a pdf on he site that gives construction details. Two comments immediately come to mind. First is that, given the posted theory that gravity waves change the permittivity and permability of space, then gravity waves can be detected by measuring rapid changes in the earth's magentic field, which would change if the permeability of space were changed. This could be done using an NMR based magnetometer. Scientific American had an amateur science project once that showed how to do this by wrapping a gallon bottle of water with wire, etc. Alternatively, changes in the magnetic field of any magnet that is well shielded from the environment could be measured accurately using NMR gaussimeter probes. The second thing that comes to mind is the possibility that space warping is not being measured, but rather actual graviphotons (as opposed to gravitons, which are analogous to virtual photons) as predicted by the Gravimagnetism theory I posted here a while back. Maybe the resistance of the CdS cell is affected by graviphotons. This would explain (the posted mystery) why a photometer aimed at the cell can not detect any change in incident light. The diode may be irrelevant to the experiment, except possibly for its use as a bias. It might be replaced by any light source, or possibly even turned off. It could also be that the sensititvty of the CdS cell is affected by graviphotons, possibly by energetically priming the outer electrons, in which case the ambient light is an essential ingrediant in the detection process, but need not come from the diode used. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 19 07:03:50 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1JF3i8g017634; Sat, 19 Feb 2005 07:03:44 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1JF3gJL017624; Sat, 19 Feb 2005 07:03:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 07:03:42 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002201c51693$5be0f440$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: , "Colin Quinney" References: Subject: Re: Trigger from Space Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 06:57:39 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: <5wIBi.A.UTE.OV1FCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57889 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Colin and Horace, This is really amazing stuff, indeed, but are you certain that the reading was not from the quake itself? I will have to admit being a little taken aback by the fist image that your are hit with when you tune into that site... the photoresistor with the leads soldered in the wrong places. This is no time for ethnic jokes but, and the explanation is probably in there, but unfortunately that initial impression is hard to dispose of easily when the juicy material is in a language that for some illogical reason is impenetrable to this reader, especially since I can read French, Spanish and Latin to a modest degree, but have found babelfish to be... well, Babel. Must be a past-life thing... Colin, can you forward your translation of the relevant stuff? Thanks, Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 19 07:32:32 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1JFWJ8g027197; Sat, 19 Feb 2005 07:32:19 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1JFWHnT027167; Sat, 19 Feb 2005 07:32:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 07:32:17 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=N0H1XFAePhjitBoF2UjvZfZUyWfYGinPrbRziZW8pJjwmqRtkd11i7JSUU0lnRkpZ1sYd9MLfROOiF/AqSFZPb4q0s8OyjlyI7mrgE+feTxW3qpaoyfUEz/fv0p3/L4+V0eMO46JscV31a+JPSf792+mu//gKaCiqery5M/07pA= ; Message-ID: <20050219153205.26298.qmail web51701.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 07:32:05 -0800 (PST) From: Terry Blanton Subject: "There is" new "There isn't" To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57890 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Looks like NASA agrees with Horace: http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewpr.html?pid=16186 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 19 08:21:59 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1JGLo8g014043; Sat, 19 Feb 2005 08:21:51 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1JGLjKK013997; Sat, 19 Feb 2005 08:21:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 08:21:45 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <003701c5169f$5ba9e840$6601a8c0 msns.flt.ptd.net> From: "revtec" To: References: Subject: Re: anomalies on Iapidus Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 11:23:31 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57891 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: 293 m/s is 649 mph! The heat of collision would be intense and localized for planetary sized bodies. The 8.6 J/g, if correct, is not evenly distributed. In the area of contact, billions of tons of material would be heated to incandesence. Jeff ----- Original Message ----- From: "Horace Heffner" To: Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2005 8:52 AM Subject: Re: anomalies on Iapidus > V = (2 G M/(R))^0.5 > V = (2 G (4.7x10^20 kg)/(730 km))^0.5 > V = 293 m/s > > So the energy E converted to heat is: > > E = 2 * .5 m*V^2 = (4.7x10^20 kg)(293 m/s)^2 = 4x10^25 J > > Thus the heat per gram H is: > > H = E/m = (4x10^25 J)/(4.7x10^20 kg) = 8.6 J/g > > which is not a lot of heat to dissipate, so this could simply result in > increased temperature, or as you noted, be dissipated by ice. Even 4 times > that number will not produce much incremental temperature. > > Iapetus is so small one has to wonder how eneough energy is developed to > smush two bodies together to make it one spherical body. Looks like the > three body theory is not even necessary, unless I have a computation error. > Iapetus is not very dense, or very big. > > See: > > > > Regards, > > Horace Heffner > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 19 09:06:40 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1JH6Q8g002766; Sat, 19 Feb 2005 09:06:27 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1JH6Ni2002739; Sat, 19 Feb 2005 09:06:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 09:06:23 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 12:03:39 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Huge 'star-quake' rocks Milky Way To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j1JH6C8g002673 Resent-Message-ID: <0YQ5MC.A.rq.OI3FCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57892 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Story from BBC NEWS: http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/sci/tech/4278005.stm Huge 'star-quake' rocks Milky Way Astronomers say they have been stunned by the amount of energy released in a star explosion on the far side of our galaxy, 50,000 light-years away. The flash of radiation on 27 December was so powerful that it bounced off the Moon and lit up the Earth's atmosphere. The blast occurred on the surface of an exotic kind of star - a super-magnetic neutron star called SGR 1806-20. If the explosion had been within just 10 light-years, Earth could have suffered a mass extinction, it is said. "We figure that it's probably the biggest explosion observed by humans within our galaxy since Johannes Kepler saw his supernova in 1604," Dr Rob Fender, of Southampton University, UK, told the BBC News website. One calculation has the giant flare on SGR 1806-20 unleashing about 10,000 trillion trillion trillion watts. "This is a once-in-a-lifetime event. We have observed an object only 20km across, on the other side of our galaxy, releasing more energy in a 10th of a second than the Sun emits in 100,000 years," said Dr Fender. Fast turn The event overwhelmed detectors on space-borne telescopes, such as the recently launched Swift observatory. This facility was put above the Earth to detect and analyse gamma-ray bursts - very intense but fleeting flashes of radiation. The giant flare it and other instruments caught in December has left scientists scrabbling for superlatives. Twenty institutes from around the world have joined the investigation and two teams are to report their findings in a forthcoming issue of the journal Nature. The light detected from the giant flare was far brighter in gamma-rays than visible light or X-rays. Research teams say the event can be traced to the magnetar SGR 1806-20. This remarkable super-dense object is a neutron star - it is composed entirely of neutrons and is the remnant collapsed core of a once giant star. Now, though, this remnant is just 20km across and spins so fast it completes one revolution every 7.5 seconds. "It has this super-strong magnetic field and this produces some kind of structure which has undergone a rearrangement - it's an event that is sometimes characterised as a 'star-quake', a neutron star equivalent of an earthquake," explained Dr Fender. "It's the only possible way we can think of releasing so much energy." Continued glow SGR 1806-20 is sited in the southern constellation Sagittarius. Its distance puts it beyond the centre of the Milky Way and a safe distance from Earth. "Had this happened within 10 light-years of us, it would have severely damaged our atmosphere and would possibly have triggered a mass extinction," said Dr Bryan Gaensler, of the Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics, who is the lead author on one of the forthcoming Nature papers. "Fortunately there are no magnetars anywhere near us." The initial burst of high-energy radiation subsided quickly but there continues to be an afterglow at longer radio wavelengths. This radio emission persists as the shockwave from the explosion moves out through space, ploughing through nearby gas and exciting matter to extraordinary energies. "We may go on observing this radio source for much of this year," Dr Fender said. This work is being done at several centres around the globe, including at the UK's Multi-Element Radio-Linked Interferometer Network (Merlin) and the Joint Institute for VLBI (Very Long Baseline for Interferometry) in Europe - both large networks of linked radio telescopes. Story from BBC NEWS: http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/sci/tech/4278005.stm Published: 2005/02/18 19:10:27 GMT © BBC MMV From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 19 09:50:05 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1JHnm8g018958; Sat, 19 Feb 2005 09:49:49 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1JHnkUl018929; Sat, 19 Feb 2005 09:49:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 09:49:46 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <004601c516ab$a3a44e40$6601a8c0 msns.flt.ptd.net> From: "revtec" To: References: <1E9326AE.33973600.0242793D aol.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050218102644.029cb138@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Evangelical environmentalists Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 12:51:25 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0043_01C51681.B8BE5200" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57893 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0043_01C51681.B8BE5200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I think I have recognized three or four Bible believing Christians on = Vortex who are regular contributors and CF advocates including myself. = I'm surprised you missed it. The range in attitude toward the environment among Christians is = probably little different than that of the general population. There is = a big difference between Bible believing Christians and church goers who = are skeptical of most of the book of Genesis. I have heard it said that = going to church does't make you a Christian any more than going to = McDonald's makes you a hamburger. But, that's another issue. The truth = is, most church goers don't know what they believe. Nonbelievers and evolutionists believe that humans are a product of the = earth and that we owe the earth something as if it is "mother" earth and = "mother" nature. Bible believing Christians OTOH believe that the earth = was made for us, not the other way around, and that its resources were = put here by God for our use. That does not imply that we can do = anything we want with it. The Bible challenges us to be good stewards, = which means to use those resources wisely and not be wasteful. I think = that makes Bible believing Christians common sense environmentalists = rather than rabid environmentalists, and thus they would be very = reasonable people for you to address. Jeff ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Jed Rothwell=20 To: vortex-l eskimo.com ; vortex-l@eskimo.com=20 Sent: Friday, February 18, 2005 10:46 AM Subject: Re: Evangelical environmentalists Erikbaard aol.com wrote: I posted on this issue earlier. A useful link is: http://www.creationcare.org/ Hey, Erik. Do you know how to talk to these people, by any chance? Do = you speak their lingo? If so, please introduce this subject to them. = Have them read my book. The last chapters may speak to some of their = concerns. Seriously, these people's beliefs and thought processes are so = different from mine, I have no clue how I might persuade them to look at = cold fusion. There is a very nice fellow promoting my book with some of = them. He happens to be a rabid creationist. I copied one of his letters = to Ed Storms the other day, and we agree that he is mentally on a = different planet. I would not want to get into an argument with him. I = sincerely appreciate his concern for the environment and his efforts to = promote cold fusion. I am always willing to compromise and find common = ground with other people. But I do not know how to write a presentation = that might convince someone with this belief system. Seriously, I would appreciate advice from any other readers here with = connections or a religious bent. No offense meant. - Jed ------=_NextPart_000_0043_01C51681.B8BE5200 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I think I have recognized three or four = Bible=20 believing Christians on Vortex who are regular contributors and CF = advocates=20 including myself.  I'm surprised you missed it.
 
The range in attitude toward the = environment among=20 Christians is probably little different than that of the general=20 population.  There is a big difference between Bible believing = Christians and church goers who are skeptical of most of the book = of=20 Genesis.  I have heard it said that going to church does't make you = a=20 Christian any more than going to McDonald's makes you a hamburger.  = But,=20 that's another issue.  The truth is, most church goers don't = know what=20 they believe.
 
Nonbelievers and evolutionists believe = that humans=20 are a product of the earth and that we owe the earth something as if it = is=20 "mother" earth and "mother" nature.  Bible believing Christians = OTOH=20 believe that the earth was made for us, not the other way around, and=20 that its resources were put = here by God=20 for our use.  That does not imply that we can do anything we want = with=20 it.  The Bible challenges us to be good stewards, which means to = use those=20 resources wisely and not be wasteful.  I think that makes Bible = believing=20 Christians common sense environmentalists rather than rabid = environmentalists,=20 and thus they would be very reasonable people for you to = address.
 
Jeff
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Jed Rothwell
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com ; vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Friday, February 18, 2005 = 10:46=20 AM
Subject: Re: Evangelical=20 environmentalists

Erikbaard@aol.com wrote:

I posted on this = issue earlier. A=20 useful link is:

http://www.creationcare.org/

Hey, = Erik.=20 Do you know how to talk to these people, by any chance? Do you speak = their=20 lingo? If so, please introduce this subject to them. Have them read my = book.=20 The last chapters may speak to some of their = concerns.

Seriously, these=20 people's beliefs and thought processes are so different from mine, I = have no=20 clue how I might persuade them to look at cold fusion. There is a very = nice=20 fellow promoting my book with some of them. He happens to be a rabid=20 creationist. I copied one of his letters to Ed Storms the other day, = and we=20 agree that he is mentally on a different planet. I would not want to = get into=20 an argument with him. I sincerely appreciate his concern for the = environment=20 and his efforts to promote cold fusion. I am always willing to = compromise and=20 find common ground with other people. But I do not know how to write a = presentation that might convince someone with this belief=20 system.

Seriously, I would appreciate advice from any other = readers=20 here with connections or a religious bent. No offense meant.

-=20 Jed
 ------=_NextPart_000_0043_01C51681.B8BE5200-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 19 10:10:06 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1JI9tbF026273; Sat, 19 Feb 2005 10:09:55 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1JI9rD2026254; Sat, 19 Feb 2005 10:09:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 10:09:53 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Trigger from Space Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 13:10:48 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57894 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace writes: >This is really amazing stuff. There is a pdf on he site that gives >construction details. I found the details for the CdS detector, but not the M detector. BTW, the URL should be this. http://www.omirp.it/ The CdS detector looks familiar, but I just can't place it. The basic circuit is reminiscent of some of Kozyrevs experiments with resistance bridges. The M detector looks like a disk magnet mounted on a gram scale, is that the case? All I could find was the picture. The guy seems serious enough that he should have a confederate in another location run the same detector, and correlate the results ( at least for his M detector ). That would be far more meaningful than a single detector. Otherwise one is just chasing down artifacts. K. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 19 10:42:36 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1JIgKbF004298; Sat, 19 Feb 2005 10:42:21 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1JIgHZ2004272; Sat, 19 Feb 2005 10:42:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 10:42:17 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <00c201c516b1$e4d4c920$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: Cc: "Colin Quinney" References: <002201c51693$5be0f440$d0bcfea9@jonesb9pacbell> <00fd01c516ac$3912da50$4b01a8c0@colin5fc9e2583> Subject: Re: Trigger from Space Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 10:36:14 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57895 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Colin Thanks for the effort. But it is still not clear that the signal he got actually foretold the quake, although this Babbled-wording "seems" to indicate that he believes so: "Grafico December of the gravitational wave that has provcato the tsunami. Graphical Novembre/25/2004.Questo seems not to have produced some phenomenon. Diagram of the gravitational wave that has provcato the tsunami in the Indian Ocean. In the brought back diagram under you can see the wave gravitational that 26 Decembers 2004 to hours 02:11:40 have invested the earth the day showing anomalous peaks, than later on to a detailed analysis, seems to be a matter of massive celestial bodies (stellar nuclei) that they fall over the nucleus of a quasar supermassive. The phenomenon is lasted little more than an hour and average, it is finished to hours 04:40:10. " BTW. In looking at the many astrological charts and on-line commentary for Dec. 26, 2004 it appears it was the time of the Full Moon. During the full Moon the Earth is always in between the Sun and Moon. The Earth at this time, being slightly nearer the Sun than normal, especially in the Southern hemisphere near the equator, would experience a greater than normal oppositional gravitational tug-of-war from these two opposing celestial bodies. I suspect that the epicenter lines up pretty well with this *opposing alignment.* Assuming that the quake *would have happened anyway* within a window of a few years or a few months, due to accumulating stress in the subsurface plates, it is not out of the question that even a small gravitational anomaly could have triggered it... ...either directly but more likely as Horace suggests, given the posted theory that gravity waves change the permittivity and permeability of space, then that far-off gravity wave, arriving when it did, could have heightened that tug-of-war stress which the two opposing gravity influences (Sun and Moon) were already exerting... to the degree that one or the other (or both) of those influences actually accomplished the trigger... ... but it would have happened anyway, eventually. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 19 10:57:40 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1JIvKbF010064; Sat, 19 Feb 2005 10:57:20 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1JIv90g009985; Sat, 19 Feb 2005 10:57:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 10:57:09 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 09:56:56 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: anomalies on Iapidus Resent-Message-ID: <3pcoP.A.xbC.Dw4FCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57896 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Fairly nconsequential correction follows: The collision velocity of the two initial impactors will be conservatively: V = (2 G M/(R))^0.5 V = (2 G (4.7x10^20 kg)/(730 km))^0.5 V = 293 m/s So the energy E converted to heat is: E = 2 * .5 m*V^2 = (4.7x10^20 kg)(293 m/s)^2 = 4x10^25 J Thus the heat per gram H is: H = E/(2*m) = (4x10^25 J)/(4.7x10^20 kg) = 43 J/g <==== note correction H = 10 cal/g which is not a lot of heat to dissipate, so this could simply result in increased temperature, or as you noted, be dissipated by ice. Even 4 times that number will not produce much incremental temperature. If it has the heat capacity of water that is only about 40 deg. C., not enough to boil water starting from 0 deg. C ice. Iapetus is so small one has to wonder how enough energy is developed to smush two bodies together to make it one spherical body. Looks like the three body theory is not even necessary, unless I have a computation error. Iapetus is not very dense, or very big. See: At 11:23 AM 2/19/5, revtec wrote: >293 m/s is 649 mph! The heat of collision would be intense and localized >for planetary sized bodies. The 8.6 J/g, if correct, is not evenly >distributed. In the area of contact, billions of tons of material would be >heated to incandesence. > >Jeff Well, you shoot a bullet at that speed and it will not warm up itself or the target much due to the collision. It has lots of momentum and destructive power well focused, but not much heat. What you say about the heat being concetrated at the surface is certainly true, and that can account for the ridge, but the bulk of the masses should remain solid. Very strange. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 19 00:08:19 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1J8888g009200; Sat, 19 Feb 2005 00:08:12 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1J8852I009183; Sat, 19 Feb 2005 00:08:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 00:08:05 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <00d801c5165a$1f48a750$4b01a8c0 colin5fc9e2583> Reply-To: "Colin Quinney" From: "Colin Quinney" To: Cc: "Jones Beene" References: <035101c51609$479522c0$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> Subject: Re: Trigger from Space Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 03:07:57 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00D5_01C51630.366B7360" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2527 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2527 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57886 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com X-Suspected-Spam: billb friends5 Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00D5_01C51630.366B7360 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Funny you should mention *gravity wave* Jones... :-) =20 http://web.tiscali.it/gravitationaldata/index.htm Latest new February 13 / 2005. Go to test16.htm This is *not* ULF- electromagnetic, but an "M Sensor" here recording = (see=20 graphs on page) during the Sumatra tsunami on Dec 25 / 04. More info on = link. The physics behind this unusual sensor's mechanism of operation is not = recognized by standard physics. It's controversial. The=20 author has done extensive recordings over 10 years and claims that his=20 sensors receive G waves directly. (not seismometer, not radio waves). I=20 first came across this web site years ago, and so on a whim after = reading=20 Jones' post I just checked it out to see if that Quasar Quake (previous = post)=20 registered on his any of sensors.=20 *Something* did arrive, and coincident with the earthquake. Other information and graphs can be linked from the home page: Portions are Italian, so I'm using a free translation service: http://babelfish.altavista.com/translate.dyn OR http://www.aztlan.net/translate.htm Colin Jones wrote: One calculation has the giant flare on SGR 1806-20 unleashing about = 10,000 trillion trillion trillion watts.=20 http://i-newswire.com/pr7466.html Not to mention... the "gravity wave" which could have gotten here = first. Jones ------=_NextPart_000_00D5_01C51630.366B7360 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Funny you should mention *gravity wave* = Jones... =20 :-)
 
http://web.tiscali.it/gravitationaldata/index.htm
=   Latest new February 13 / 2005. Go to = test16.htm

  This=20 is *not* ULF- electromagnetic, but an "M Sensor" here recording (see =
graphs=20 on page) during the Sumatra tsunami on Dec 25 / 04. More info on=20 link.

  The physics behind this unusual sensor's mechanism = of=20 operation is not
recognized by standard physics. It's controversial. = The=20
author has done extensive recordings over 10 years and claims that = his=20
sensors receive G waves directly. (not seismometer, not radio = waves). I=20
first came across this web site years ago, and so on a whim after = reading=20
Jones' post I just checked it = out to see if=20 that Quasar Quake (previous post)
registered on his any of sensors.=20
 
*Something* did arrive, = and coincident with the = earthquake.

 =20 <http://web.tiscali.it/gravitationaldata/index.htm>

  Other information and graphs can be linked = from the=20 home page:
  <http://web.tiscali.it/gravitationaldata/test16.htm>

  Portions are Italian, so I'm using a free = translation=20 service:
  http://babelfish.altavista.com/translate.dyn
  OR
  http://www.aztlan.net/translate.htm

 =20 Colin
Jones wrote:
 
<snippidy-doo>
One calculation has the giant flare on SGR 1806-20 unleashing = about=20 10,000 trillion trillion trillion watts.
http://i-newswire.com/pr7466.h= tml
 
Not to mention... the "gravity wave" which could have gotten here = first.
 
Jones
------=_NextPart_000_00D5_01C51630.366B7360-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 19 00:08:19 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1J8888g009200; Sat, 19 Feb 2005 00:08:12 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1J8852I009183; Sat, 19 Feb 2005 00:08:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 00:08:05 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <00d801c5165a$1f48a750$4b01a8c0 colin5fc9e2583> Reply-To: "Colin Quinney" From: "Colin Quinney" To: Cc: "Jones Beene" References: <035101c51609$479522c0$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> Subject: Re: Trigger from Space Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 03:07:57 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00D5_01C51630.366B7360" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2527 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2527 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57886 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com X-Suspected-Spam: billb friends5 Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00D5_01C51630.366B7360 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Funny you should mention *gravity wave* Jones... :-) =20 http://web.tiscali.it/gravitationaldata/index.htm Latest new February 13 / 2005. Go to test16.htm This is *not* ULF- electromagnetic, but an "M Sensor" here recording = (see=20 graphs on page) during the Sumatra tsunami on Dec 25 / 04. More info on = link. The physics behind this unusual sensor's mechanism of operation is not = recognized by standard physics. It's controversial. The=20 author has done extensive recordings over 10 years and claims that his=20 sensors receive G waves directly. (not seismometer, not radio waves). I=20 first came across this web site years ago, and so on a whim after = reading=20 Jones' post I just checked it out to see if that Quasar Quake (previous = post)=20 registered on his any of sensors.=20 *Something* did arrive, and coincident with the earthquake. Other information and graphs can be linked from the home page: Portions are Italian, so I'm using a free translation service: http://babelfish.altavista.com/translate.dyn OR http://www.aztlan.net/translate.htm Colin Jones wrote: One calculation has the giant flare on SGR 1806-20 unleashing about = 10,000 trillion trillion trillion watts.=20 http://i-newswire.com/pr7466.html Not to mention... the "gravity wave" which could have gotten here = first. Jones ------=_NextPart_000_00D5_01C51630.366B7360 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Funny you should mention *gravity wave* = Jones... =20 :-)
 
http://web.tiscali.it/gravitationaldata/index.htm
=   Latest new February 13 / 2005. Go to = test16.htm

  This=20 is *not* ULF- electromagnetic, but an "M Sensor" here recording (see =
graphs=20 on page) during the Sumatra tsunami on Dec 25 / 04. More info on=20 link.

  The physics behind this unusual sensor's mechanism = of=20 operation is not
recognized by standard physics. It's controversial. = The=20
author has done extensive recordings over 10 years and claims that = his=20
sensors receive G waves directly. (not seismometer, not radio = waves). I=20
first came across this web site years ago, and so on a whim after = reading=20
Jones' post I just checked it = out to see if=20 that Quasar Quake (previous post)
registered on his any of sensors.=20
 
*Something* did arrive, = and coincident with the = earthquake.

 =20 <http://web.tiscali.it/gravitationaldata/index.htm>

  Other information and graphs can be linked = from the=20 home page:
  <http://web.tiscali.it/gravitationaldata/test16.htm>

  Portions are Italian, so I'm using a free = translation=20 service:
  http://babelfish.altavista.com/translate.dyn
  OR
  http://www.aztlan.net/translate.htm

 =20 Colin
Jones wrote:
 
<snippidy-doo>
One calculation has the giant flare on SGR 1806-20 unleashing = about=20 10,000 trillion trillion trillion watts.
http://i-newswire.com/pr7466.h= tml
 
Not to mention... the "gravity wave" which could have gotten here = first.
 
Jones
------=_NextPart_000_00D5_01C51630.366B7360-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 19 13:02:58 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1JL2jbF026422; Sat, 19 Feb 2005 13:02:46 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1JL2gQR026397; Sat, 19 Feb 2005 13:02:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 13:02:42 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 16:02:33 -0500 From: Erikbaard aol.com To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Evangelical environmentalists MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <66676D48.11D614C9.0242793D aol.com> X-Mailer: Atlas Mailer 2.0 X-AOL-IP: 199.219.152.29 X-AOL-Language: english Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <10KL7.A.YcG.xl6FCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57897 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: <<>> I don't know many fundies in daily life. Maybe none. But I do know lots of people who recognize the scientific validity of the mounds of evidence produce for natural selection. They are not animists or Wiccans. They do not worship "Mother Earth." I think you are (*surprise*) taking the Gaiai metaphor too literally. Kind of like the Bible. Erik Baard From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 19 13:05:55 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1JL5jbF027515; Sat, 19 Feb 2005 13:05:46 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1JL5hPK027494; Sat, 19 Feb 2005 13:05:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 13:05:43 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 16:05:33 -0500 From: Erikbaard aol.com To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Evangelical environmentalists MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <45B06F9A.7B99BDB3.0242793D aol.com> X-Mailer: Atlas Mailer 2.0 X-AOL-IP: 199.219.152.29 X-AOL-Language: english Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57898 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: But with Christian charity, please forgive typos. I am on the fly at a library. Erik From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 19 13:32:07 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1JLVqbF002770; Sat, 19 Feb 2005 13:31:56 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1JLVosk002738; Sat, 19 Feb 2005 13:31:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 13:31:50 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 12:31:47 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: "There is" new "There isn't" Resent-Message-ID: <4vwmS.A.uq.FB7FCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57899 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 7:32 AM 2/19/5, Terry Blanton wrote: >Looks like NASA agrees with Horace: > >http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewpr.html?pid=16186 The makings for even more conspiracy theories! 8^) They really need but maybe now especially don't want a lichen expert to get involved. High altitude arctic lichens, if not already survivable on Mars, can be bred here on earth to survive in Martian conditions. It would be (and has been) a very good science project for some teenager. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 19 13:35:08 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1JLYtbF003634; Sat, 19 Feb 2005 13:34:55 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1JLYrLP003617; Sat, 19 Feb 2005 13:34:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 13:34:53 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <006101c516cb$03951040$6601a8c0 msns.flt.ptd.net> From: "revtec" To: References: <66676D48.11D614C9.0242793D aol.com> Subject: Re: Evangelical environmentalists Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 16:36:01 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57900 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I'm all for sound science including CF research. I have spent hundreds of hours and thousands of dollars trying to coax some over unity performance out of a series of PAGD experiments, but only succeeded in finding some interesting anomalies. I remain strongly convinced that true religion and true science are never in conflict. Jeff ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2005 4:02 PM Subject: Re: Evangelical environmentalists > <<>> > > I don't know many fundies in daily life. Maybe none. But I do know lots of people who recognize the scientific validity of the mounds of evidence produce for natural selection. They are not animists or Wiccans. They do not worship "Mother Earth." I think you are (*surprise*) taking the Gaiai metaphor too literally. Kind of like the Bible. > > Erik Baard > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 19 14:55:56 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1JMtibF027434; Sat, 19 Feb 2005 14:55:44 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1JMtccD027398; Sat, 19 Feb 2005 14:55:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 14:55:38 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4217C449.2030203 ix.netcom.com> Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 15:57:13 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Evangelical environmentalists References: <66676D48.11D614C9.0242793D aol.com> <006101c516cb$03951040$6601a8c0@msns.flt.ptd.net> In-Reply-To: <006101c516cb$03951040$6601a8c0 msns.flt.ptd.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57901 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: revtec wrote: > I'm all for sound science including CF research. I have spent hundreds of > hours and thousands of dollars trying to coax some over unity performance > out of a series of PAGD experiments, but only succeeded in finding some > interesting anomalies. > > I remain strongly convinced that true religion and true science are never in > conflict. Well Jeff, I agree. However I would phrase this a little differently. I would say that a true understanding of science is never in conflict with a true understanding of the spirit reality. The word "Religion" should not be used in this context because it is only an imperfect effort by man to understand the spirit reality, much like physics is an imperfect effort by man to understand the physical world. Both fields of study are fractured into warring factions because they are based on an imperfect understanding. This raises an additional issue with respect to the literal interpretation of the Bible. Some people argue that the statements in the Bible are exactly true even though they were made by men writing in another language, who believed the earth was flat and was the center of the only universe, and who were talking to an entirely different culture. Nevertheless, God is supposed to have given these men superhuman and universal knowledge, evidence for which is not obvious in the text. What are scientists to make of statements given by religion based on such evidence? This is rather like assuming the works of Aristotle are literally true and should be the basis for science. How do Christian scientists deal with this problem? Regards, Ed > > Jeff > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2005 4:02 PM > Subject: Re: Evangelical environmentalists > > > >><< > earth and that we owe the earth something as if it is "mother" earth and > "mother" nature.>>> > >>I don't know many fundies in daily life. Maybe none. But I do know lots of > > people who recognize the scientific validity of the mounds of evidence > produce for natural selection. They are not animists or Wiccans. They do not > worship "Mother Earth." I think you are (*surprise*) taking the Gaiai > metaphor too literally. Kind of like the Bible. > >>Erik Baard >> >> > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 19 14:59:24 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1JMxEbF028407; Sat, 19 Feb 2005 14:59:15 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1JMxCc7028388; Sat, 19 Feb 2005 14:59:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 14:59:12 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: anomalies on Iapidus Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 09:59:03 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <003701c5169f$5ba9e840$6601a8c0@msns.flt.ptd.net> In-Reply-To: <003701c5169f$5ba9e840$6601a8c0 msns.flt.ptd.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j1JMx9bF028360 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57902 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to revtec's message of Sat, 19 Feb 2005 11:23:31 -0500: Hi, [snip] >293 m/s is 649 mph! The heat of collision would be intense and localized >for planetary sized bodies. The 8.6 J/g, if correct, is not evenly >distributed. In the area of contact, billions of tons of material would be >heated to incandesence. > >Jeff [snip] Any percentage of ice, from 0-100% is possible, along with a wide variety of other matter, which can vary from a loose agglomeration to a solid mass, which makes for a very large parameter space. Given Horace's figures, combined with your observation here above, it would seem that there is likely to be some combination which could result in the current configuration. BTW in the close up, the "wall" appears to split into 3 lines (or mountain ranges) deep in the shadow portion. This may be an indication that the bodies were rotating relative to one another (highly likely anyway) at the time of impact. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 19 15:55:16 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1JNsxse011618; Sat, 19 Feb 2005 15:55:00 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1JNsvdp011607; Sat, 19 Feb 2005 15:54:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 15:54:57 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Trigger from Space Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 10:54:43 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j1JNsnse011508 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57903 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Horace Heffner's message of Sat, 19 Feb 2005 05:16:30 -0900: Hi, [snip] >At 3:07 AM 2/19/5, Colin Quinney wrote: >>Funny you should mention *gravity wave* Jones... :-) >> >>http://web.tiscali.it/gravitationaldata/index.htm >> Latest new February 13 / 2005. Go to test16.htm >> >> This is *not* ULF- electromagnetic, but an "M Sensor" here recording (see >>graphs on page) during the Sumatra tsunami on Dec 25 / 04. More info on link. Quote from Part 1: Description and operating of the detector (P. Galletti and A. Aluigi) "with a constant source of light emitted by a vacuum diode" AFAIK vacuum diodes barely emit a feeble glow. I would hardly think this would be constant source of light. Also, I would expect any modulation of the current passing through the diode to produce a modulation in the light output, so the device may really only be recording electrical noise in the diode power circuit. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 19 16:33:47 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1K0XXse025282; Sat, 19 Feb 2005 16:33:34 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1K0XQ5M025219; Sat, 19 Feb 2005 16:33:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 16:33:26 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=wSNifgx+7A5KMY6CFNupJQfXi8vn/4m2dTjp4QClkjjJ3+YpTGxvFGWbU2LQJ3RnxDDUdR7uxJiamtJkWqmEjfti+IjPAFtfYJ5cetPqVubYl0zBP6pFBi83nyGvakidSN6w9fMpltblm/TRVEYbp+ASv5Zv6TZK2LSGns9hC4c= ; Message-ID: <20050220003318.34898.qmail web51707.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 16:33:18 -0800 (PST) From: Terry Blanton Subject: [OT] Naval Irony To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57904 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: An attack sub named jimah: http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/sns-ap-uss-jimmy-carter,1,7214089.story?coll=chi-news-hed&ctrack=1&cset=true __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 19 16:37:56 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1K0bhse026701; Sat, 19 Feb 2005 16:37:44 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1K0bgqd026679; Sat, 19 Feb 2005 16:37:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 16:37:42 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=J3VlmToRX8t98ptbAY/XKhTARn5FlRpMvfAbgMMC2W9tAIxiT3Ww3Mo6vvzjY3UmvAtIk+w8KC4ZsSm8NDeo3yf/1TnVU6atkDqFtzc1Mfv8z5a+vg166vHN0V0JSVMCzFzrZ9xE3Gy+MtkC3WxgfqfQ0Nc1JnI4ei5M8ontPyY= ; Message-ID: <20050220003734.55323.qmail web51703.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 16:37:34 -0800 (PST) From: Terry Blanton Subject: Re: [OT] Naval Irony To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <20050220003318.34898.qmail web51707.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57905 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --- Terry Blanton wrote: > An attack sub named jimah: > > http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/sns-ap-uss-jimmy-carter,1,7214089.story?coll=chi-news-hed&ctrack=1&cset=true > Forgot the excerpt: To ensure that the last Seawolf was not obsolete before it hit the water, the Pentagon delayed production to install a 100-foot hull extension that military analysts say equips the Jimmy Carter to replace the USS Parche, one of the fleet's premier spy subs. What's 100 ft. long and makes you a spy? "Oh! James!" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 19 17:50:38 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1K1oPma017293; Sat, 19 Feb 2005 17:50:26 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1K1oNvY017277; Sat, 19 Feb 2005 17:50:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 17:50:23 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 16:50:20 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Trigger from Space Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57906 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:54 AM 2/20/5, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >In reply to Horace Heffner's message of Sat, 19 Feb 2005 05:16:30 -0900: >Hi, >[snip] >>At 3:07 AM 2/19/5, Colin Quinney wrote: >>>Funny you should mention *gravity wave* Jones... :-) >>> >>>http://web.tiscali.it/gravitationaldata/index.htm >>> Latest new February 13 / 2005. Go to test16.htm >>> >>> This is *not* ULF- electromagnetic, but an "M Sensor" here recording (see >>>graphs on page) during the Sumatra tsunami on Dec 25 / 04. More info on link. > >Quote from Part 1: Description and operating of the detector (P. Galletti >and A. Aluigi) >"with a constant source of light emitted by a vacuum diode" > >AFAIK vacuum diodes barely emit a feeble glow. I would hardly think this >would be constant source of light. Also, I would expect any modulation of >the current passing through the diode to produce a modulation in the light >output, so the device may really only be recording electrical noise in the >diode power circuit. >From the pdf describing construction details it appears the anode plate is phosphorized, and both the cathode potential and filament current are highly regulated. Additonally the device is temperature controlled by heating elements and further encapsulated in a seconadary thermionically regulated shell. The precison of temperature regulation quoted, 0.0001 de.g C, does not look credible, however. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 19 18:34:04 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1K2Xrma032479; Sat, 19 Feb 2005 18:33:54 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1K2XkV5032432; Sat, 19 Feb 2005 18:33:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 18:33:46 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002101c516f4$a2c555c0$6601a8c0 msns.flt.ptd.net> From: "revtec" To: References: <66676D48.11D614C9.0242793D aol.com> <006101c516cb$03951040$6601a8c0@msns.flt.ptd.net> <4217C449.2030203@ix.netcom.com> Subject: Re: Evangelical environmentalists Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 21:33:57 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57907 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Edmund Storms" To: Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2005 5:57 PM Subject: Re: Evangelical environmentalists > > > revtec wrote: > > > I'm all for sound science including CF research. I have spent hundreds of > > hours and thousands of dollars trying to coax some over unity performance > > out of a series of PAGD experiments, but only succeeded in finding some > > interesting anomalies. A little elaboration here: I havn't fired up the PAGD apparatus since last April, because I was running out of reasonable circuit variations to try. Even though I have an Aerospace degree, I in no way consider myself a scientist. Mike Carrell observed my early efforts in 1996 and referred to me as a tinkerer in a later post. That may be an accurate assessment of my capability. > > > > I remain strongly convinced that true religion and true science are never in > > conflict. > > Well Jeff, I agree. However I would phrase this a little differently. > I would say that a true understanding of science is never in conflict > with a true understanding of the spirit reality. The word "Religion" > should not be used in this context because it is only an imperfect > effort by man to understand the spirit reality, much like physics is an > imperfect effort by man to understand the physical world. Both fields of > study are fractured into warring factions because they are based on an > imperfect understanding. I really don't like the word religion, but I use it because that is the word most people expect to see. Religions in general are man's attempts at reaching out to God. Christianity, however, is God reaching out to man. > This raises an additional issue with respect to the literal > interpretation of the Bible. Some people argue that the statements in > the Bible are exactly true even though they were made by men writing in > another language, who believed the earth was flat and was the center of > the only universe, and who were talking to an entirely different > culture. I have read the Bible cover to cover several times but have not encountered in my recollection a verse implying that the earth was flat. I could have missed it. Do you have a reference? There are cases in the Bible where the author accurately reports a statement which is untrue. As an example, the scriptures state in many places that there is life after death, but in the book of Ecclesiastes, Solomon says there is not. That is what he thought at the time he wrote it, and that thought is accurately reported. But, it is fairly clear to me that he was nuts at the time he wrote it. If you had 500 wives, how sane would you be? >Nevertheless, God is supposed to have given these men > superhuman and universal knowledge, evidence for which is not obvious in > the text. I'm not sure what you are getting at here. Jeff >What are scientists to make of statements given by religion > based on such evidence? This is rather like assuming the works of > Aristotle are literally true and should be the basis for science. How > do Christian scientists deal with this problem? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 19 18:47:11 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1K2kuma005515; Sat, 19 Feb 2005 18:46:56 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1K2ksa5005493; Sat, 19 Feb 2005 18:46:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 18:46:54 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Horizons Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 13:46:44 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <1euf11d1nqj790svaeue7m8si3gk09md37 4ax.com> References: <001001c5156d$c62db530$52027841 xptower> In-Reply-To: <001001c5156d$c62db530$52027841 xptower> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j1K2koma005449 Resent-Message-ID: <0xfK1.A.tVB.do_FCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57908 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to RC Macaulay's message of Thu, 17 Feb 2005 21:56:04 -0600: Hi, [snip] >We continue to observe " events" in our applied research project in vortex reactors for seawater pretreatment to reduce mineral content prior to the filters ahead of the reverse osmosis membranes ( a major DeSal headache). [snip] Could you list a few of these "events"? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 19 19:43:36 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1K3hLma026336; Sat, 19 Feb 2005 19:43:21 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1K3hICW026316; Sat, 19 Feb 2005 19:43:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 19:43:18 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <002201c516fe$4cd30810$a9037841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: Evangelical environmentalists Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 21:43:10 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001E_01C516CC.01A44750" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-99.5 required=4.0 tests=HTML_20_30,HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57909 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C516CC.01A44750 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_001F_01C516CC.01A5CDF0" ------=_NextPart_001_001F_01C516CC.01A5CDF0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankThe book of Ecclesiastes is my favorite Businessman's handbook. It = was written by the one given the most wisdom ever. He was also the = richest man ever. He was also an abject failure. The book should be = required reading for every MBA and leadership position because it = describes Solomon's explanation of how he got himself into such a mess = when he had all the money and brains to be the CEO, succeed in = leadership, and still blew it. A candid and articulate book indeed.! The book of Job is my favorite physics handbook.Technically correct in = it composition. A most overlooked scientific textbook missing from the = classroom. The remarkable insight given in its pages is presented in = debate form. It explains more science by NOT revealing than by = revealing. It contains the ultimate joke on the reader in the question = posed .... " Tell me how I did it"? " Were you there" ? God is a spirit and must be worshipped in the spirit. He has set it so = that no man can physically prove or disprove Him, only spiritually. He = can be proven spiritually. He asks you to prove Him. There are a = thousand ways. One example: Most businesses have a bulletin board for employees = notices, etc. Try placing a small "prayer request form " on your = bulletin board requesting anyone that needs prayer or has someone that = needs prayer to post a request or e-mail the request to rtchurch cvtv.net . And wait. My old Chem prof used to say there is no disharmony between science and = believing God. Think about it. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_001F_01C516CC.01A5CDF0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
The book of Ecclesiastes is my favorite = Businessman's=20 handbook. It was written by the one given the most wisdom ever. He was = also the=20 richest man ever. He was also an abject failure. The book = should be=20 required reading for every MBA and leadership position because = it=20 describes Solomon's explanation of how he got himself into such a mess = when he=20 had all the money and brains to be the CEO, succeed in = leadership, and=20 still blew it.
A candid and articulate book = indeed.!
 
The book of Job is my favorite physics=20 handbook.Technically correct in it composition. A most overlooked = scientific=20 textbook missing from the classroom. The remarkable insight given in its = pages is presented in debate form. It explains more science = by NOT=20 revealing than by revealing. It contains the ultimate joke on=20 the reader in the question posed ....
" Tell me how I did it"?  " Were you = there"=20 ?
 
God is a spirit and must be worshipped in the = spirit. He=20 has set it so that no man can physically prove or disprove Him, only=20 spiritually. He can be proven spiritually. He asks you to prove Him. = There are a=20 thousand ways.
 
One example: Most businesses have a bulletin = board for=20 employees notices, etc. Try placing a small "prayer request form " on = your=20 bulletin board requesting anyone that needs prayer or has someone that = needs=20 prayer
to post a request or e-mail the request to rtchurch@cvtv.net . And = wait.
 
My old Chem prof used to say there is no = disharmony=20 between science and believing God. Think about it.
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_001F_01C516CC.01A5CDF0-- ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C516CC.01A44750 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <001d01c516fe$4c27d3f0$a9037841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C516CC.01A44750-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 19 20:09:22 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1K49Cma001501; Sat, 19 Feb 2005 20:09:13 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1K498tp001468; Sat, 19 Feb 2005 20:09:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 20:09:08 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <003101c51701$dfebb5e0$a9037841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: Horizons Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 22:08:03 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_002D_01C516CF.7B81E980" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-99.2 required=4.0 tests=HTML_30_40,HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57910 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002D_01C516CF.7B81E980 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_002E_01C516CF.7B81E980" ------=_NextPart_001_002E_01C516CF.7B81E980 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankHiya Robin, I should have stated.. "tantalizing" events. For example: One test = resulted in oxidizing minerals from domestic city water that had a = residual chlorine content. A white residue that settled perhaps 2-3 mm = thick on the bottom of a 8ft dia. tank 8ft tall. Another test using = extremely hard well water ( no chlorine) ozidized minerals leaving a = residue of 2-3mm+ thick in a tank bottom of 3ft dia. 3ft tall. Tantalizing because they are random and not repetitive over a range of = rotational speeds, water temperatures and diverging cone angles. We were able to put the prettiest head of foam on a pond of fresh = seawater , only to have the facility manager ask us to leave since he = only wanted foam on his beer ( grin). Next tests include a 3 stage cyclone separation staged reactor that can = spill each stage into their respective clarifiers. Sounds like childsplay, costs out of the kazoo, but so tantalizing . Richard ------=_NextPart_001_002E_01C516CF.7B81E980 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Hiya Robin,
 
I should have stated.. "tantalizing" = events. For=20 example: One test resulted in oxidizing minerals from domestic = city=20 water that had a residual chlorine content. A white residue that settled = perhaps=20 2-3 mm thick on the bottom of a 8ft dia. tank 8ft tall. Another test = using=20 extremely hard well water ( no chlorine) ozidized minerals = leaving a=20 residue of 2-3mm+  thick in a tank bottom of 3ft dia. 3ft=20 tall.
Tantalizing because they are random and not = repetitive=20 over a range of rotational speeds, water temperatures and diverging cone = angles.
We were able to put the prettiest head of = foam on a=20 pond of fresh seawater , only to have the facility manager ask us to = leave since=20 he only wanted foam on his beer ( grin).
Next tests include a 3 stage cyclone = separation staged=20 reactor that can spill each stage into their respective = clarifiers.
Sounds like childsplay, costs out of the = kazoo, but=20 so tantalizing .
 
Richard
 

 

------=_NextPart_001_002E_01C516CF.7B81E980-- ------=_NextPart_000_002D_01C516CF.7B81E980 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <002c01c51701$c5f7ba80$a9037841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_002D_01C516CF.7B81E980-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 19 20:33:36 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1K4XOma011371; Sat, 19 Feb 2005 20:33:25 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1K4XLFH011348; Sat, 19 Feb 2005 20:33:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 20:33:21 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42181371.6030407 ix.netcom.com> Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 21:34:57 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Evangelical environmentalists References: <66676D48.11D614C9.0242793D aol.com> <006101c516cb$03951040$6601a8c0@msns.flt.ptd.net> <4217C449.2030203@ix.netcom.com> <002101c516f4$a2c555c0$6601a8c0@msns.flt.ptd.net> In-Reply-To: <002101c516f4$a2c555c0$6601a8c0 msns.flt.ptd.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57911 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: revtec wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Edmund Storms" > To: > Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2005 5:57 PM > Subject: Re: Evangelical environmentalists > > > >> >>revtec wrote: >> >> >>>I'm all for sound science including CF research. I have spent hundreds > > of > >>>hours and thousands of dollars trying to coax some over unity > > performance > >>>out of a series of PAGD experiments, but only succeeded in finding some >>>interesting anomalies. > > > A little elaboration here: > > I havn't fired up the PAGD apparatus since last April, because I was running > out of reasonable circuit variations to try. Even though I have an > Aerospace degree, I in no way consider myself a scientist. Mike Carrell > observed my early efforts in 1996 and referred to me as a tinkerer in a > later post. That may be an accurate assessment of my capability. > > > >>>I remain strongly convinced that true religion and true science are > > never in > >>>conflict. >> >>Well Jeff, I agree. However I would phrase this a little differently. >>I would say that a true understanding of science is never in conflict >>with a true understanding of the spirit reality. The word "Religion" >>should not be used in this context because it is only an imperfect >>effort by man to understand the spirit reality, much like physics is an >>imperfect effort by man to understand the physical world. Both fields of >>study are fractured into warring factions because they are based on an >>imperfect understanding. > > > > I really don't like the word religion, but I use it because that is the word > most people expect to see. Religions in general are man's attempts at > reaching out to God. Christianity, however, is God reaching out to man. I though prayer was the act of reaching out to God, while religion was the codified understanding of God's wishes and laws as believed by a particular group. I think that all religions believe that their particular interpretation of God is also God reaching out to them with a message. The problem comes when different messages are received because each religion believes they have received the only true message. > > > >>This raises an additional issue with respect to the literal >>interpretation of the Bible. Some people argue that the statements in >>the Bible are exactly true even though they were made by men writing in >>another language, who believed the earth was flat and was the center of >>the only universe, and who were talking to an entirely different >>culture. > > > I have read the Bible cover to cover several times but have not encountered > in my recollection a verse implying that the earth was flat. I could have > missed it. Do you have a reference? I agree, the Bible does not comment on the shape of the earth. However, as best as we now can determine, a flat earth was the conventional belief at the time. If God wanted to give authenticity to what was written, he/she could have had the writers note that the earth was round and that the heavens were populated by many suns. However, these ideas, even if God were so inclined, would probably have been deleted by the authorities of that time. > > There are cases in the Bible where the author accurately reports a statement > which is untrue. As an example, the scriptures state in many places that > there is life after death, but in the book of Ecclesiastes, Solomon says > there is not. That is what he thought at the time he wrote it, and that > thought is accurately reported. But, it is fairly clear to me that he was > nuts at the time he wrote it. If you had 500 wives, how sane would you be? > > >>Nevertheless, God is supposed to have given these men >>superhuman and universal knowledge, evidence for which is not obvious in >>the text. > > > I'm not sure what you are getting at here. Jeff If the Bible is literal truth of the physical reality, then the writers at that time would have had to be given knowledge about how the world was created and what would happen in the future that no normal man could have at that time. Instead, the Bible contains conflicting statements, allegorical descriptions of creation, and predictions of the future that can be related to events only after the fact. Consequently, no evidence exists within the text that the knowledge base of the writers was beyond what was known or imagined at the time. As a result, the Bible as the literal word of God has to be taken on faith. The conflict with science occurs because science attempts to take nothing on faith. This is why science and religion can never agree. Regards, Ed > > >>What are scientists to make of statements given by religion >>based on such evidence? This is rather like assuming the works of >>Aristotle are literally true and should be the basis for science. How >>do Christian scientists deal with this problem? > > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 20 01:23:54 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1K9NfJR017367; Sun, 20 Feb 2005 01:23:41 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1K9NcLT017338; Sun, 20 Feb 2005 01:23:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 01:23:38 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001301c5172e$a5fbbc40$0200a8c0 Post2> Reply-To: "George Baldwin" From: "George Baldwin" To: References: Subject: Re: anomalies on Iapetus Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 09:29:16 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57912 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Sirs, Whilst a collision is a possibility, a collision of such an exactitude is, in my humblest opinion, of infinitesimal likelihood. If the following suggestion is old hat, I beg your forgiveness and plead technical problems and diminishing lucidity: Should the said body have a thin hard crust covering deep softer material it could be that at some point gravity has induced enough stress for half the surface to collapse slightly inward, the effect being similar to badly fitting the two halves of a child's tin globe together - one half sliding inside the other, producing a shape that is close to a sphere in some areas and Iapetusesque elsewhere. Salutations, GB ----- Original Message ----- From: "Horace Heffner" To: Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2005 6:56 PM Subject: Re: anomalies on Iapidus > Fairly nconsequential correction follows: > > The collision velocity of the two initial impactors will be conservatively: > > > V = (2 G M/(R))^0.5 > V = (2 G (4.7x10^20 kg)/(730 km))^0.5 > V = 293 m/s > > So the energy E converted to heat is: > > E = 2 * .5 m*V^2 = (4.7x10^20 kg)(293 m/s)^2 = 4x10^25 J > > Thus the heat per gram H is: > > H = E/(2*m) = (4x10^25 J)/(4.7x10^20 kg) = 43 J/g <==== note correction > > H = 10 cal/g > > which is not a lot of heat to dissipate, so this could simply result in > increased temperature, or as you noted, be dissipated by ice. Even 4 times > that number will not produce much incremental temperature. If it has the > heat capacity of water that is only about 40 deg. C., not enough to boil > water starting from 0 deg. C ice. > > Iapetus is so small one has to wonder how enough energy is developed to > smush two bodies together to make it one spherical body. Looks like the > three body theory is not even necessary, unless I have a computation error. > Iapetus is not very dense, or very big. > > See: > > > > > At 11:23 AM 2/19/5, revtec wrote: > >293 m/s is 649 mph! The heat of collision would be intense and localized > >for planetary sized bodies. The 8.6 J/g, if correct, is not evenly > >distributed. In the area of contact, billions of tons of material would be > >heated to incandesence. > > > >Jeff > > > Well, you shoot a bullet at that speed and it will not warm up itself or > the target much due to the collision. It has lots of momentum and > destructive power well focused, but not much heat. What you say about the > heat being concetrated at the surface is certainly true, and that can > account for the ridge, but the bulk of the masses should remain solid. > Very strange. > > Regards, > > Horace Heffner > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 20 12:27:30 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1KKRJJR027909; Sun, 20 Feb 2005 12:27:19 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1KKRCDr027874; Sun, 20 Feb 2005 12:27:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 12:27:12 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "John Steck" To: "Vortex" Subject: Wikipedia Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 14:28:21 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57913 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A Vorts, My apologies if this isn't new to everyone, but just stumbled across Wikipedia. It's an open source encyclopedia project. Anyone and everyone is invited to contribute and edit sections. It's an honor system that relies on volunteer subject matter champions to maintain sections they are most interested in. There is a nice article about it in the current issue of Wired magazine (March 2005). Since we have our fair share of 'experts' on this list, this might be something many here might want to actively participate in. Interestingly enough, there seems to be no restrictions on what you can contribute. You can publish a whole category if you want. This is what they have for "Cold Fusion": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_fusion -john ~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~ John Steck High Impact Product Development Services DESIGN - ENGINEERING - MANUFACTURING - MARKETING ~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~ Quality is never an accident; it is always the result of high intention, sincere effort, intelligent direction, and skillful execution. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 20 13:58:29 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1KLwGhL024392; Sun, 20 Feb 2005 13:58:17 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1KLwDNN024367; Sun, 20 Feb 2005 13:58:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 13:58:13 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <4214D805.70201 ix.netcom.com> References: <4214D805.70201 ix.netcom.com> Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 15:58:24 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: BBC Horizon to feature Taleyarkhan Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57914 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ed Storms responded' >Once again, we are being treated to one more example of exaggeration >and BS. The Taleyarkhan cavitation work is hot fusion occurring in >bubbles, not cold fusion. I don't understand how hot fusion in bubbles differs from what the other LERN researchers are doing, > The rates are very low and the method would not work if power >output were at commercial levels, yet this work gets attention. In >contrast, Stringham has caused cold fusion to occur at near >commercial levels in metals by applying deuterium to the metal using >cavitation, yet this work is ignored. It is regrettable that the physics establishment ignores this research. OTOH, once commercially feasible amount of energy are produced, things will change. >We are not being treated to dreams, but to nightmares. Ever the pessimist From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 20 15:26:54 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1KNQfhL021666; Sun, 20 Feb 2005 15:26:41 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1KNQddX021648; Sun, 20 Feb 2005 15:26:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 15:26:39 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20050220152905.04f8c848 mail.dlsi.net> X-Sender: steven%newenergytimes.com mail.dlsi.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 15:30:28 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: BBC Horizon to feature Taleyarkhan In-Reply-To: References: <4214D805.70201 ix.netcom.com> <4214D805.70201 ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57915 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Thomas, >I don't understand how hot fusion in bubbles differs from what the other >LERN researchers are doing, I've written about this in detail in my book, and also in part, in two articles in the New Energy Times newsletter #8 http://newenergytimes.com/news/8.htm . Search on "bubble" and "sonofusion." Steve From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 20 15:29:40 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1KNTRhL022512; Sun, 20 Feb 2005 15:29:27 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1KNTOhV022488; Sun, 20 Feb 2005 15:29:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 15:29:25 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42191DAC.6010409 ix.netcom.com> Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 16:30:52 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BBC Horizon to feature Taleyarkhan References: <4214D805.70201@ix.netcom.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57916 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: thomas malloy wrote: > Ed Storms responded' > >> Once again, we are being treated to one more example of exaggeration >> and BS. The Taleyarkhan cavitation work is hot fusion occurring in >> bubbles, not cold fusion. > > > I don't understand how hot fusion in bubbles differs from what the other > LERN researchers are doing, LENR describes nuclear reactions made to occur under conditions that conflict with all conventional experience and theory, while hot fusion in bubbles is normal high-energy fusion. > >> The rates are very low and the method would not work if power output >> were at commercial levels, yet this work gets attention. In contrast, >> Stringham has caused cold fusion to occur at near commercial levels in >> metals by applying deuterium to the metal using cavitation, yet this >> work is ignored. > > > It is regrettable that the physics establishment ignores this research. > OTOH, once commercially feasible amount of energy are produced, things > will change. Unfortunately, commercial amounts of energy are impossible using this technique. The amount of energy generated by each bubble is just too small. > >> We are not being treated to dreams, but to nightmares. > > > Ever the pessimist Guilty. In my defense, some times are more consistent with pessimism than others. This happens to be one of those times. Regards, Ed > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 20 16:48:15 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1L0lthL019471; Sun, 20 Feb 2005 16:47:56 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1L0lrrw019452; Sun, 20 Feb 2005 16:47:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 16:47:53 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 19:44:40 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Nuclear fusion 'put to the test' To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j1L0lkhL019398 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57917 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Story from BBC NEWS: http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/sci/tech/4270297.stm Nuclear fusion 'put to the test' It is three years since Professor Rusi Taleyarkhan made the controversial claim that he had achieved one of the holy grails of science - nuclear fusion. Since then, he has grown tired of the scepticism of his fellow scientists. "My lab has been audited, my instruments have been audited, my books have been audited, the data speaks for itself. "The data has to speak for itself - I mean how can I answer that I know absolutely 100% sure that it is what I think it is? I just have to look at the data and the data have been looked at very carefully. "In the history of publication I probably will not be able to find one that has gone through this level of scrutiny - if you do, let me know," he said. Sonoluminescence Nuclear fusion is nature's atomic power - it is what powers the Sun and, if it can be made to happen here on Earth on a large enough scale, it promises to solve all of mankind's energy problems in one go. It would be clean, last for ever and create no long-term nuclear waste. And Rusi Taleyarkhan claims to have achieved it using simple sound waves. His breakthrough is based on something called sonoluminescence. It is a process that transforms sound waves into flashes of light, focusing the sound energy into a tiny flickering hot spot inside a bubble. It has been nicknamed "the star in a jar" by researchers in the field. The star in a jar effortlessly reaches temperatures of tens of thousands of degrees, which is hotter than the surface of the Sun. It was able to do all this by simply focusing the energy of the sound wave into a tiny hot spot. In order to get fusion, temperatures inside the bubble had to be in the region of 10 million degrees. It seemed improbable that the tiny hot spots could be this hot. But if they were - or if a way could be found to make them so - then a new route to nuclear fusion would be opened up. In 1999, the US government made some research funds available and across America a few laboratories started to explore ways to try to turn their star in a jar into fusion. And Rusi Taleyarkhan got there first. But there was one major criticism of Rusi Taleyarkhan's work. When fusion takes place, particles called neutrons are given off. These are considered by scientists to be the key signature of nuclear fusion - but measuring neutrons on a small, laboratory scale had proven notoriously difficult in the past because neutrons also occur naturally in the Earth's environment. Professor Taleyarkhan was also using them in part of his experiment. Many scientists were unconvinced that Rusi Taleyarkhan's neutron detection was as accurate as it needed to be to prove such a big claim. To try to get to the bottom of the issue, the experiment was re-run by Mike Saltmarsh and Dan Shapiro, colleagues of Taleyarkhan's at the Oak Ridge National Laboratory. But, when they repeated the experiment, they couldn't find any evidence of fusion. "If there had been fusion going on at the sort of rate that Taleyarkhan's paper was claiming we should have seen an enormous increase in the neutron detection and we didn't," said Mike Saltmarsh. Scientific stalemate Most of the key figures in the field lined up on the side of Mike Saltmarsh but they could not dispute that Rusi Taleyarkhan had found what he said he had found. It seemed to be a scientific stalemate. Then two years later, in March 2004, Rusi Taleyarkhan came out with a new paper, showing even more fusion and more neutrons. This paper was thoroughly reviewed and published in another respected journal. But some sceptics still were not satisfied. Nuclear fusion from sound waves would be a huge scientific breakthrough. But to be convinced of it, many scientists wanted to see better evidence; evidence that was absolutely incontrovertible. They wanted to look very carefully at the timing of the neutrons to see just how closely they were related to the flashes of light. If they occurred at the exact same time, they would finally be convinced that fusion was taking place. The question was - just how exact did the measurements need to be? Unique experiment The sceptics wanted to time it with incredible accuracy - that of a nanosecond, or a billionth of a second. This was one measurement that, though possible to do, still had not been carried out by Rusi Taleyarkhan and his team. The BBC Horizon programme decided to try to sort out the issue once and for all. It commissioned an independent team led by Seth Putterman to conduct a unique experiment. Working from the instructions set out in Rusi Taleyarkhan's paper, it assembled the same key scientific conditions necessary to create nuclear fusion from sonoluminescence. But to see if it could find fusion, we measured the neutrons and the flashes of light simultaneously with nanosecond accuracy, something that had never been done before. Recording data nanosecond by nanosecond, Seth Putterman did not find a single neutron close enough to a flash of light for it to be considered the result of nuclear fusion. So the conclusion was negative. Horizon put this conclusion to Rusi Taleyarkhan who said that several differences in the equipment could have affected the results. It is very possible that other laboratories around the world will reproduce Rusi Taleyarkhan's fusion results but until then, the claim will attract great scepticism from the wider scientific community. Horizon was broadcast on BBC Two on Thursday, 17 February, 2005. Story from BBC NEWS: http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/sci/tech/4270297.stm Published: 2005/02/18 11:41:15 GMT © BBC MMV From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 20 18:29:20 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1L2TBhL005760; Sun, 20 Feb 2005 18:29:11 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1L2T8cn005739; Sun, 20 Feb 2005 18:29:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 18:29:08 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002c01c517bb$e3e0a240$6601a8c0 msns.flt.ptd.net> From: "revtec" To: Cc: "Bob Flower" , "Andy Becan" , "George Anderson" References: <66676D48.11D614C9.0242793D aol.com> <006101c516cb$03951040$6601a8c0@msns.flt.ptd.net> <4217C449.2030203@ix.netcom.com> <002101c516f4$a2c555c0$6601a8c0@msns.flt.ptd.net> <42181371.6030407@ix.netcom.com> Subject: Re: Evangelical environmentalists Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 21:20:16 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57918 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Edmund Storms" To: Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2005 11:34 PM Subject: Re: Evangelical environmentalists > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Edmund Storms" > > To: > > Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2005 5:57 PM > > Subject: Re: Evangelical environmentalists > If the Bible is literal truth of the physical reality, then the writers > at that time would have had to be given knowledge about how the world > was created and what would happen in the future that no normal man could > have at that time. Instead, the Bible contains conflicting statements, > allegorical descriptions of creation, and predictions of the future that > can be related to events only after the fact. Two hundred years before king Cyrus of Persia was born, the prophet Isaiah foretold by name (44:28 - 45:7) that Cyrus would be the one to release the Jews from Babylonian captivity in 522 BC. The prophet Micah, writing around 700 BC wrote in (5:3) about the birth of Jesus in Bethlehem. When the wise men arrived at Herod's palace the scribes looked it up and told them where to find Him! King David in Psalm 22 wrote a description of Christ's crucifiction over 1000 years before it happened. Jesus, when asked to comment on the splendor of the Jewish temple, said "not one stone shall be left here upon another that shall not be thrown down." This was said on Tuesday, three days before His crucifiction, and is recorded in three of the four gospels. Thirty some years later Titus of Rome made it happen. Jerusalem was leveled, The Jewish inhabitants were relocated, and the nation of Israel was no more. For the next twenty centuries, scholars, studying the Hebrew texts and the writings of the apostles, both of which would form the canon of scriptures known today as the Bible, would be perplexed at all the prophetic statements regarding the restored nation of Israel. It was perfectly clear that the nation of Israel was destroyed beyond any hope of restoration. That "certainty" was "proof" for centuries, to many people, that the Bible was erroneous and unreliable. But, the unimaginable happened on May 18, 1948 and Israel was once again established as a nation. The nearly extinct Hebrew language is once again spoken in the land. Ironically, the language of the empire that tried to destroy the Jews is spoken nowhere! I was born on the same day Israel was reborn. There is surely nothing prophetic in that, but it is a curious thing. Jeff >Consequently, no evidence > exists within the text that the knowledge base of the writers was beyond > what was known or imagined at the time. As a result, the Bible as the > literal word of God has to be taken on faith. The conflict with science > occurs because science attempts to take nothing on faith. This is why > science and religion can never agree. > > Regards, > Ed > > > > > >>What are scientists to make of statements given by religion > >>based on such evidence? This is rather like assuming the works of > >>Aristotle are literally true and should be the basis for science. How > >>do Christian scientists deal with this problem? > > > > > > > > > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 20 21:01:11 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1L514hL004534; Sun, 20 Feb 2005 21:01:04 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1L5115o004493; Sun, 20 Feb 2005 21:01:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 21:01:01 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001f01c517d2$3087bbe0$1cc563d8 com> From: "Ed Malone" To: Subject: Domed Craft Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 20:59:57 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001C_01C5178F.2242EA20" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57919 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C5178F.2242EA20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Maybe this is off topic a bit. I was curious as of why so many of these = ufo craft sighted have a dome on the top. Is there any significance to = this involving propulsion? Ed ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C5178F.2242EA20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Maybe this is off topic a bit. I was = curious as of=20 why so many of these ufo craft sighted have a dome on the top. Is there = any=20 significance to this involving propulsion?
 
Ed
------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C5178F.2242EA20-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 20 21:21:51 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1L5LihL011790; Sun, 20 Feb 2005 21:21:44 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1L5Lgfe011769; Sun, 20 Feb 2005 21:21:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 21:21:42 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050221051804.006a521c pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 05:18:04 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Evangelical environmentalists Resent-Message-ID: <9LNKhC.A.13C.l_WGCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57920 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 09:20 pm 20-02-05 -0500, you wrote: > >I was born on the same day Israel was reborn. There is surely nothing >prophetic in that, but it is a curious thing. > >Jeff Maybe there was something "prophetic in that". As with all prophesies - only time will tell. 8-) Cheers Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 20 23:45:45 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1L7jahL003749; Sun, 20 Feb 2005 23:45:36 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1L7jXF8003731; Sun, 20 Feb 2005 23:45:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 23:45:33 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <42191DAC.6010409 ix.netcom.com> References: <4214D805.70201 ix.netcom.com> <42191DAC.6010409 ix.netcom.com> Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 01:45:33 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: BBC Horizon to feature Taleyarkhan Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57921 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >thomas malloy wrote: > >>Ed Storms responded' >> >>>Once again, we are being treated to one more example of >>>exaggeration and BS. The Taleyarkhan cavitation work is hot >>>fusion occurring in bubbles, not cold fusion. >> >> >>I don't understand how hot fusion in bubbles differs from what the >>other LERN researchers are doing, > >LENR describes nuclear reactions made to occur under conditions that >conflict with all conventional experience and theory, while hot >fusion in bubbles is normal high-energy fusion. I've always assumed that any induced nuclear reaction, other than lasers in a plasma, was an LENR. Particularly if it involved bubbles in a liquid, which I assume was water. >> >>> The rates are very low and the method would not work if power >>>output were at commercial levels, yet this work gets attention. In >>>contrast, Stringham has caused cold fusion to occur at near >>>commercial levels in metals by applying deuterium to the metal >>>using cavitation, yet this work is ignored. >> >> >>It is regrettable that the physics establishment ignores this >>research. OTOH, once commercially feasible amount of energy are >>produced, things will change. > >Unfortunately, commercial amounts of energy are impossible using >this technique. The amount of energy generated by each bubble is >just too small. Interesting observation. I've heard about inducing reactions by sonic stimulation of water. You're saying that the energy output for a reactions induced by what ever stimulation he was using will never go over unity, since you've studied it and I haven't, I'll take your word for it. I've been reading about the Yuri Popatov's Yusmar machine, which AFAIK, produces LENR's in an aquas solution by means of a vortex. Heat is a big item with Russians, and electricity costs something there too. The fact that he has lots of orders for the machines, should tell you something. >> >>>We are not being treated to dreams, but to nightmares. >> >> >>Ever the pessimist > >Guilty. In my defense, some times are more consistent with pessimism >than others. This happens to be one of those times. > >Regards, > Ed I know what you mean. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 21 00:36:55 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1L8afhL019290; Mon, 21 Feb 2005 00:36:41 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1L8ac79019266; Mon, 21 Feb 2005 00:36:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 00:36:38 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050221083300.0069d870 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 08:33:00 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: BBC Horizon to feature Taleyarkhan Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57922 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 01:45 am 21-02-05 -0600, you wrote: > >I've been reading about the Yuri Popatov's Yusmar machine, which >AFAIK, produces LENR's in an aquas solution by means of a vortex. >Heat is a big item with Russians, and electricity costs something >there too. The fact that he has lots of orders for the machines, >should tell you something. Looking up YUSMAR I came across the following: =================================================== However, the speakers from the Russian Academy of Sciences are probably forgetting about the YUSMAR systems that first appeared in the Moldovan city of Chisinau. This technology has been patented in 42 countries. The YUSMAR system was tested several times in reliable research centers in Russia and the United States. It was discovered that the system produced about two kilowatts of heat per one kilowatt of consumed energy. This technology caused much dispute. Is it a perpetual-motion machine? Many scientists are convinced that this machine cannot operate -- but it does. Let's leave it for scientists to decide whether the machine can work or not. In the near future, the fantastic invention of the Volgograd research group will be realized. A Canadian company has already concluded a contract with Volgograd-s Scientific industrial center GRUS for production of a new type of power source. The company believes that this new technology can "change the whole energy-supply system." These compact generators can continuously generate electricity and need no technical input: Their duration is unlimited. Thus, people having the appliance will obtain an electric-power station of their own that can be placed in the home or office. The power capacity of the new generator is three to ten kilowatts, which is quite enough for energy supply to an apartment or an office. =================================================== The report is 2 years old so don't hold your breath. ;-) Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 21 05:36:49 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1LDadhL022378; Mon, 21 Feb 2005 05:36:40 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1LDabOC022359; Mon, 21 Feb 2005 05:36:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 05:36:37 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=luUoT2JxIvGKAcMgAehq7K6EyS/VWOuDzoJH2bnR0T0MgCIU4ceewjjm80rLbIiiZ2V147yVYbEZecj8yo0IRfzVtWxKjO5SJpasfnZaghxtPqSQaU/2oLVWxIzQJgfQ2nB0fkiHJDgj4+VgmTqUkN4eqlsiAXzTraMA8zVwMCw= ; Message-ID: <20050221133629.98039.qmail web51701.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 05:36:29 -0800 (PST) From: Terry Blanton Subject: Re: Domed Craft To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <001f01c517d2$3087bbe0$1cc563d8 com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-715563902-1108992989=:96650" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57923 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-715563902-1108992989=:96650 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii It's where the pilots sit? This might help: http://www.zamandayolculuk.com/cetinbal/LAZARDISK.HTM Ed Malone wrote: Maybe this is off topic a bit. I was curious as of why so many of these ufo craft sighted have a dome on the top. Is there any significance to this involving propulsion? Ed --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' --0-715563902-1108992989=:96650 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
It's where the pilots sit?
 
This might help:
 


Ed Malone <dtrek spiritone.com> wrote:
Maybe this is off topic a bit. I was curious as of why so many of these ufo craft sighted have a dome on the top. Is there any significance to this involving propulsion?
 
Ed

Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' --0-715563902-1108992989=:96650-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 21 06:19:16 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1LEIxhL008164; Mon, 21 Feb 2005 06:18:59 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1LEIuui008146; Mon, 21 Feb 2005 06:18:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 06:18:56 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=ZMNMbCEA/0vfYLIokE8wLg3d2A7jhQkXfn0DSUcgQfwaxCK7OwcwBqwPV7ydTeG/QaSdPqsyPLEjaG34mz7b2s+gUZTeGHCLd0QCyP3GwWhlVXm2HyRm7zlWeCWYJBB/n9pdDZghcS8Gr3XBD/fFiS8AZ+b0Nj1j2Bf/J0UeXlg= ; Message-ID: <20050221141850.12232.qmail web51701.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 06:18:49 -0800 (PST) From: Terry Blanton Subject: [OT] Seasonal Adjustive Disorder To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-808715231-1108995529=:11805" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57924 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --0-808715231-1108995529=:11805 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii (Are you paying attention, Horace?) This is truly SAD: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,148207,00.html "ANCHORAGE — Anchorage (search) police said a woman upset about an impending break-up with her boyfriend cut off the man's penis and flushed it down a toilet. " --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more. --0-808715231-1108995529=:11805 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
(Are you paying attention, Horace?)
 
This is truly SAD:
 
 
"ANCHORAGE — Anchorage (search) police said a woman upset about an impending break-up with her boyfriend cut off the man's penis and flushed it down a toilet. "

Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more. --0-808715231-1108995529=:11805-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 21 07:52:53 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1LFqVhL017854; Mon, 21 Feb 2005 07:52:36 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1LFqTXP017841; Mon, 21 Feb 2005 07:52:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 07:52:29 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <421A0431.2010605 ix.netcom.com> Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 08:54:25 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BBC Horizon to feature Taleyarkhan References: <4214D805.70201@ix.netcom.com> <42191DAC.6010409@ix.netcom.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <2nKsn.A.tWE.9OgGCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57925 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: thomas malloy wrote: >> thomas malloy wrote: >> >>> Ed Storms responded' >>> >>>> Once again, we are being treated to one more example of exaggeration >>>> and BS. The Taleyarkhan cavitation work is hot fusion occurring in >>>> bubbles, not cold fusion. >>> >>> >>> >>> I don't understand how hot fusion in bubbles differs from what the >>> other LERN researchers are doing, >> >> >> LENR describes nuclear reactions made to occur under conditions that >> conflict with all conventional experience and theory, while hot fusion >> in bubbles is normal high-energy fusion. > > > I've always assumed that any induced nuclear reaction, other than lasers > in a plasma, was an LENR. Particularly if it involved bubbles in a > liquid, which I assume was water. Because of the Coulomb barrier, all nuclear reactions, excluding LENR and neutron reactions, require high energy. The discovery that such reactions can be initiated without high energy is the unique aspect of LENR. > >>> >>>> The rates are very low and the method would not work if power >>>> output were at commercial levels, yet this work gets attention. In >>>> contrast, Stringham has caused cold fusion to occur at near >>>> commercial levels in metals by applying deuterium to the metal using >>>> cavitation, yet this work is ignored. >>> >>> >>> >>> It is regrettable that the physics establishment ignores this >>> research. OTOH, once commercially feasible amount of energy are >>> produced, things will change. >> >> >> Unfortunately, commercial amounts of energy are impossible using this >> technique. The amount of energy generated by each bubble is just too >> small. > > > Interesting observation. I've heard about inducing reactions by sonic > stimulation of water. You're saying that the energy output for a > reactions induced by what ever stimulation he was using will never go > over unity, since you've studied it and I haven't, I'll take your word > for it. > > I've been reading about the Yuri Popatov's Yusmar machine, which AFAIK, > produces LENR's in an aquas solution by means of a vortex. Heat is a big > item with Russians, and electricity costs something there too. The fact > that he has lots of orders for the machines, should tell you something. The Yusmar machine has been tested several times, once at LANL under the direction of Popatov, and none of the tests showed excess energy. However, as a method to convert electric energy to heat energy, it is very practical because it is simple and does not require maintenance. Russian water is frequently impure so that using a resistor for conversion results in build up of deposit that requires removal. This is the major reason the method is popular in Russia. Regards, Ed > >>> >>>> We are not being treated to dreams, but to nightmares. >>> >>> >>> >>> Ever the pessimist >> >> >> Guilty. In my defense, some times are more consistent with pessimism >> than others. This happens to be one of those times. >> >> Regards, >> > Ed > > I know what you mean. > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 21 08:46:57 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1LGkShL004808; Mon, 21 Feb 2005 08:46:28 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1LGkMak004748; Mon, 21 Feb 2005 08:46:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 08:46:22 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <421A0431.2010605 ix.netcom.com> References: <4214D805.70201 ix.netcom.com> <42191DAC.6010409 ix.netcom.com> <421A0431.2010605 ix.netcom.com> Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 10:46:25 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: BBC Horizon to feature Taleyarkhan Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57926 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >thomas malloy wrote: >>>thomas malloy wrote: >>> >>>>Ed Storms responded' >> >>I've been reading about the Yuri Popatov's Yusmar machine, which >>AFAIK, produces LENR's in an aquas solution by means of a vortex. >>Heat is a big item with Russians, and electricity costs something >>there too. The fact that he has lots of orders for the machines, >>should tell you something. > >The Yusmar machine has been tested several times, once at LANL under >the direction of Popatov, and none of the tests showed excess >energy. However, as a method to convert electric energy to heat >energy, it is very practical because it is simple and does not >require maintenance. Russian water is frequently impure so that >using a resistor for conversion results in build up of deposit that >requires removal. This is the major reason the method is popular in >Russia. > >Regards, >Ed >> >>>> Do you recall what the thermal efficiency that LANL observed was? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 21 08:49:49 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1LGnbhL005824; Mon, 21 Feb 2005 08:49:38 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1LGnZFN005803; Mon, 21 Feb 2005 08:49:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 08:49:35 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <890JBsPfY2768S13.1108828373 uwdvg003.cms.usa.net> References: <890JBsPfY2768S13.1108828373 uwdvg003.cms.usa.net> Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 10:49:44 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: Math Problem, humor (OT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57927 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Fellow Vortexians; >I THOUGHT YOU MIGHT ENJOY!! > >Subject: Math Problem > >Enjoy a lighter reference about the corporate world !! > > >What Makes 100%? What does it mean to give MORE than 100%? Ever wonder about >those people who say they are giving more than 100%? We have all been to those > >meetings where someone wants you to give over 100%. How about achieving 103%? > >What makes up 100% in life? > >Here's a little mathematical formula that might help you answer these >questions: > > >If: >A B C D E F G H I J K L M N O P Q R S T U V W X Y Z > >is represented as: > > >1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26. > >Then: > >H-A-R-D-W-O-R-K >8+1+18+4+23+15+18+11 = 98% > > > >and > > >K-N-O-W-L-E-D-G-E >11+14+15+23+12+5+4+7+5 = 96% > >But, > >A-T-T-I-T-U-D-E >1+20+20+9+20+21+4+5 = 100% > >And, > >B-U-L-L-S-H-I-T >2+21+12+12+19+8+9+20 = 103% > >AND, look how far ass kissing will take you. > >A-S-S-K-I-S-S-I-N-G >1+19+19+11+9+19+19+9+14+7 = 118% > >So, one can conclude with mathematical certainty that While Hard work and >Knowledge will get you close, and Attitude will get you there, it's the >Bullshit >and Ass kissing that will put you over the top. > > >Sincerely, > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 21 09:25:31 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1LHP7hL006564; Mon, 21 Feb 2005 09:25:11 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1LHP4h7006538; Mon, 21 Feb 2005 09:25:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 09:25:04 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20050221092827.00b184e0 mail.dlsi.net> X-Sender: steven%newenergytimes.com mail.dlsi.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 09:28:56 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: Math Problem, humor (OT) In-Reply-To: References: <890JBsPfY2768S13.1108828373 uwdvg003.cms.usa.net> <890JBsPfY2768S13.1108828373 uwdvg003.cms.usa.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57928 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Uggh :) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 21 10:00:51 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1LI0KhL023873; Mon, 21 Feb 2005 10:00:20 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1LI0EnI023826; Mon, 21 Feb 2005 10:00:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 10:00:14 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: [OT] Naval Irony Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 13:01:05 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <20050220003734.55323.qmail web51703.mail.yahoo.com> Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57929 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Terry. I laughed too when I saw this, then I got kind of annoyed. Naming a nuclear attack submarine like this after him is in poor taste at best. http://cryptome.org/mmp/jimmy-carter.htm As well, that the name should invoke some fear in the enemy; even the common swamp rabbit is nonplussed by this moniker. More on Carter's naval adventures here. http://www.narsil.org/politics/carter/killer_rabbit.html ...including rare photos of the enraged lagomorph charging the presidential vessel, and the former president driving off the beast with some decidedly non-nuclear weaponry. ( of course, one might imagine some nuclear reactions occurring in the cavitation bubbles formed by all that splashing... ) K. -----Original Message----- From: Terry Blanton [mailto:terry1094 yahoo.com] Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2005 7:38 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [OT] Naval Irony --- Terry Blanton wrote: > An attack sub named jimah: > > http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/sns-ap-uss-jimmy-carter,1,7214089.story?coll=chi-news-hed&ctrack=1&cset=true > Forgot the excerpt: To ensure that the last Seawolf was not obsolete before it hit the water, the Pentagon delayed production to install a 100-foot hull extension that military analysts say equips the Jimmy Carter to replace the USS Parche, one of the fleet's premier spy subs. What's 100 ft. long and makes you a spy? "Oh! James!" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 21 10:47:43 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1LIlQn4019718; Mon, 21 Feb 2005 10:47:27 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1LIlO2Z019701; Mon, 21 Feb 2005 10:47:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 10:47:24 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=QfCgk0h9Bzn/71JGwGKZQQxn76TdKohxZzL58mVFh0IT5Xv3xDbfkfHjTg2ZWtYRPYv0C5YkKZqxaKYKvlM6pGAfjKBN10D9DAstGfSduaxomdYHM+BM95LjwgiwlV7MeALj4CfXjohcLNbb7s8Pk2NdN/RIk+WnSgMDFaiNXIo= Message-ID: Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 11:47:22 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Evangelical environmentalists In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.20050221051804.006a521c pop.freeserve.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 References: <2.2.32.20050221051804.006a521c pop.freeserve.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j1LIlLn4019680 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57930 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: the thing to recognize also is that the "evangelical" christians are a minority of christians. being christian does not mean following falwell and robertson, believing that god created the earth in 7 days (i say to let people correct me, they love to) or that homosexuality is an abomination (as is eating shellfish, but you dont see constitutional ammendments banning red lobster). in fact, teh majority of Earth First, a very militant environmentalist group, is christian. they have prayer meetings for various environmental actions all teh time. On Mon, 21 Feb 2005 05:18:04 +0000, Grimer wrote: > At 09:20 pm 20-02-05 -0500, you wrote: > > > > > > >I was born on the same day Israel was reborn. There is surely nothing > >prophetic in that, but it is a curious thing. > > > >Jeff > > Maybe there was something "prophetic in that". > > As with all prophesies - only time will tell. 8-) > > Cheers > > Frank Grimer > > -- "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 21 10:50:46 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1LIoT5t020782; Mon, 21 Feb 2005 10:50:29 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1LIoSeN020767; Mon, 21 Feb 2005 10:50:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 10:50:28 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=ZIqRwMfglssMswYMQhRYSk8fc9ftnWC17ezHXi90o8qUqW1Kwf6BUDO9JtnbM/D5wus3ZD38YU3UGUAErpABnGuzFEi90orvGpv9FBjdAov2ZL9J8pQP43N9pptwy17xXPSMsXF7MvRrDkQ7FKV5B3cqAt4ds9Oj+I13y8ajlSs= Message-ID: Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 11:50:24 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Domed Craft In-Reply-To: <20050221133629.98039.qmail web51701.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 References: <001f01c517d2$3087bbe0$1cc563d8 com> <20050221133629.98039.qmail web51701.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j1LIoO5t020724 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57931 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: if you look at the old petroglyphs that seem to describe space travelers, the tops are always described as see through domes where people look out. also, it may simply be aesthetics? On Mon, 21 Feb 2005 05:36:29 -0800 (PST), Terry Blanton wrote: > It's where the pilots sit? > > This might help: > > http://www.zamandayolculuk.com/cetinbal/LAZARDISK.HTM > > > Ed Malone wrote: > Maybe this is off topic a bit. I was curious as of why so many of these ufo > craft sighted have a dome on the top. Is there any significance to this > involving propulsion? > > Ed > > ________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' > > -- "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 21 11:06:11 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1LJ5r5t027324; Mon, 21 Feb 2005 11:05:57 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1LJ5pRo027297; Mon, 21 Feb 2005 11:05:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 11:05:51 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=yF79HIFfezLnhxJf1mOfbLPWrrznkwVM9cXrjr8USbcjyf48/4g9GdkehAsOmyA5ONYwpgvXgG+g8BMDn0J4kOkryP5O8YAmooA/930qhqWaGcITHGRbdud3ROmclqGLzwdt5XnGRL2ayGdvtnABfyu2Zf/QGtJvkp8IP4AxJrU= ; Message-ID: <20050221190539.83142.qmail web51708.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 11:05:39 -0800 (PST) From: Terry Blanton Subject: RE: [OT] Naval Irony To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="0-1144053565-1109012739=:80429" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57932 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-1144053565-1109012739=:80429 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-705900409-1109012739=:80429" --0-705900409-1109012739=:80429 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Note: forwarded message attached. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! – What will yours do? --0-705900409-1109012739=:80429 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii


Note: forwarded message attached.

Do you Yahoo!?
The all-new My Yahoo! – What will yours do? --0-705900409-1109012739=:80429-- --0-1144053565-1109012739=:80429 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Received: from [70.150.70.66] by web51706.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 21 Feb 2005 11:04:59 PST Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 11:04:58 -0800 (PST) From: Terry Blanton Subject: RE: [OT] Naval Irony To: knagel gis.net In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-5921558-1109012698=:74997" Content-Length: 1031 --0-5921558-1109012698=:74997 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Yea, I bet neither the crew nor the prez are too happy about it these days. Thanks for the web ref. I wondered how that bloody minisub got deployed so quickly in "Hunt for Red October". I don't know which story haunts James Earl Carter more, the rabbit or the UFO. Keith Nagel wrote: Hi Terry. I laughed too when I saw this, then I got kind of annoyed. Naming a nuclear attack submarine like this after him is in poor taste at best. http://cryptome.org/mmp/jimmy-carter.htm As well, that the name should invoke some fear in the enemy; even the common swamp rabbit is nonplussed by this moniker. More on Carter's naval adventures here. http://www.narsil.org/politics/carter/killer_rabbit.html ...including rare photos of the enraged lagomorph charging the presidential vessel, and the former president driving off the beast with some decidedly non-nuclear weaponry. ( of course, one might imagine some nuclear reactions occurring in the cavitation bubbles formed by all that splashing... ) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --0-5921558-1109012698=:74997 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Yea, I bet neither the crew nor the prez are too happy about it these days.
 
Thanks for the web ref.  I wondered how that bloody minisub got deployed so quickly in "Hunt for Red October".
 
I don't know which story haunts James Earl Carter more, the rabbit or the UFO.

Keith Nagel <knagel gis.net> wrote:
Hi Terry.

I laughed too when I saw this, then I got kind of annoyed.
Naming a nuclear attack submarine like this after him is in
poor taste at best.

http://cryptome.org/mmp/jimmy-carter.htm

As well, that the name should invoke some fear in the enemy;
even the common swamp rabbit is nonplussed by this moniker.
More on Carter's naval adventures here.

http://www.narsil.org/politics/carter/killer_rabbit.html

...including rare photos of the enraged lagomorph charging
the presidential vessel, and the former president driving
off the beast with some decidedly non-nuclear weaponry.
( of course, one might imagine some nuclear reactions
occurring in the cavitation bubbles formed by all that
splashing... )

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com --0-5921558-1109012698=:74997-- --0-1144053565-1109012739=:80429-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 21 11:31:28 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1LJUw5t007100; Mon, 21 Feb 2005 11:31:00 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1LJUsDU007054; Mon, 21 Feb 2005 11:30:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 11:30:54 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Standing Bear To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: NASA: Evidence of Life on Mars Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 14:32:27 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200502211432.27493.rockcast earthlink.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57933 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Wednesday 16 February 2005 16:52, Horace Heffner wrote: > At 11:45 AM 2/16/5, Terry Blanton wrote: > >There, they finally said it: > > > >http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/mars_life_050216.html > > It's about time. However, they seem to be barking up the wrong tree, or is > that down the wrong hole? > > Unless there is substantial vulcanism, or indigenous radiactivity, water > based life is not going to live deep. It is too cold. Frozen critters > don't metabolize well. Only the surface warms up. Water vapor does > percolate to the shallow surface in sunshine. At least we saw evidence of > what appeared to be that in the photos. Water based life must be right on > top. No surprise there, the "canals" have been seasonally advancing and > retreating for decades. Better to look for examples above the arctic > circle than in Spain. > > Regards, > > Horace Heffner Hello All, Why be so sure that Mars is geologically dead. Anybody that works outside here on Earth knows that when one digs, one finds heat however low in intensity. The depth of frost penetration is a known engineering factor used in the design of foundations among other things. Any miner will tell you that when you dig deep into the Earth you find warmth, and the deeper you go, the warmer you get. Just digging less than six inches here in Michigan in the dead of winter and one will find unfrozen ground. Soil is high porosity so this is all the more 'remarkable' for the insulation provided by a little soil so easily defeats the coldest winter. It has been up to twenty below zero here and our lake probably has an ice depth of less than a foot! Like Jurassic Park's character Ian the chaos theory guy says: ..."Life will find a way!". We have found life here living hundreds of feet below ground living on rocks! Life does not have to be the quintessential little green man of the 1950's asking to be taken to our leaders. Life can very well be very hardy microscopic plants and/or animals. In my humble opinion based on experiences on Earth, Mars rocks and streams aged and weathered the same way. Earth's oceans are an illusion of stability or difference depending on ones point of view when one considers that the average ocean depth of two miles is a very small fraction of the diameter of the planet. It has been said that Mars had an ocean as well. It might well had and is locked up in ice now and covered over by dust and breakdown erosion products now, else the Vallis Marinaris would be full of it. Who knows, maybe it really IS full of water that is covered by soils or dust layers. We have not really been there to dig. I will go out on a limb and bet a hundred bucks that if one was to have a base on Mars and be able to mine it, he/she would find increasing heat with depth on Mars just like on Earth. Furthermore, I bet the same that Mar's zone of freezing might prove to be shockingly shallow. If I wanted to find life on Mars, I would send an expedition to the deepest valley on the planet in the vicinity of the equator. The Vallis Marinaris seems to fit this nicely. Might also find large amounts of biogenerated methane. Just don't drive there in 'Da Yoopers' 'Rusty Chevrolet'........."I light a match..to see da dash......an den I stardt to pray!"...... Standing Bear I still remember those pix of Melis Chasma in the Vallis taken last summer with the green patches low on the walls of the canyon but still in the sunlight. Those low areas, just like Death Valley and the Rub 'al Kalee' here on Earth, will be the warmest places on that planet. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 21 11:38:35 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1LJcB5t009990; Mon, 21 Feb 2005 11:38:12 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1LJc9l9009961; Mon, 21 Feb 2005 11:38:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 11:38:09 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 10:37:51 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: [OT] Seasonal Adjustive Disorder Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j1LJc15t009838 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57934 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 6:18 AM 2/21/5, Terry Blanton wrote: >(Are you paying attention, Horace?) Yep, I'm here, now, if a bit late. > >This is truly SAD: > >http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,148207,00.html > >"ANCHORAGE ó Anchorage (search) police said a woman upset about an >impending break-up with her boyfriend cut off the man's penis and flushed >it down a toilet. " I figured it would become national news. More can be seen at: as well as other Alaskana. Fur Rendezvous week is now in session. This time of year was picked in part to let off some steam, to relieve some of that cabin fever, the local name for SAD, before "break-up" occurs, in Spring. When I came here in 1976 the streets froze over in early September and didn't thaw until break-up in April. Break-up used to be roughly a two week event of slushy streets and potholes in the ice. Now it seems to happen off and on all winter long. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 21 12:04:55 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1LK4fEC020124; Mon, 21 Feb 2005 12:04:41 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1LK4clg020091; Mon, 21 Feb 2005 12:04:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 12:04:38 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <007301c5184f$b65c1c20$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: Incredible battery and TOE Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 11:58:28 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0070_01C5180C.A7A1CC40" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57935 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0070_01C5180C.A7A1CC40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable One of the most frustrating things about the internet, especially to any = alternative energy advocate who seeks to find, weed-out and support, in = every reasonable way, or even try to replicate ... the *best reasonable* = solutions available which address the looming fossil-fuel-reliance = catastrophe is...=20 1) No, it is not the plethora of fly-by-night scam artists like GWE = (Genesis) Dennis Lee, Gardner Watts, Tilley, Lutec, and the others = documented by the (always over-inclusive) "crank" sites, like Kreig's: = Those unscrupulous promoters who taint the entire field, by recognizing = (as all good crooks can) - the 'johns' - the 'easy pickin's' available = when wealthy individuals who have a social consciousness (but do not = have much sophistication in appreciating what is feasible and what is = not feasible.) are out there. Caveat emptor. 2) No, it is not well-meaning, sometimes brilliant but often = self-deceived or at least hard-to-comprehend experimenters and = theorists, who are not seeking financial gain, but yet are promoting = ideas which are likely to be dead-end from the get-go. These go back to = Leonardo da Vinci, Bernoulli, and even Isaac Newton. The problem here is = separating the wheat from the chafe and often that involves personal = viewpoints. No problem with that, either. It is well-documented that = many of the greatest inventors, visionaries and creators throughout = history have been borderline psychotic and see things that more focused = scientists will miss. 3) No, its not the web sites which specialize in rehashing old scams, = alien technology, missed-opportunity-nostalgia, suppressed inventions = and failed ventures like those of Keeley, Hamil , Hendershot, DePalma, = etc. or in egregious over-optimism about every little puffed-up item = which appears on the PR-sites or in the vanity press. These can be = mildly humorous. Instead the really frustrating information is the tantalizing stuff = which appears from brilliant, well funded, probably genius-level = researchers like Mills/BLP who will publish tantalizing bits of = apparently apocryphal (at least certainly unattainable in the short run) = speculation, but cannot produce any real evidence to back it up, and = then have the gall to claim "independent verification" when everyone who = tires to duplicate it fails. More on the hydrino battery at the end. But first, to consolidate two postings on Mills into one: In case you were wondering: How heavy is everything: The initial mass of the Universe based on the size, age, Hubble constant, temperature, density of matter, and power spectrum is 2 X 10^54 kg... give or take a few ounces How old is the universe? Infinitely old, as it oscillates on a long cycle but never collapses all the way: Thus, the observed Universe will expand as mass is released as photons for ~500,000,000,000 years to its maximum radius of 2x10^12 light years.. At that point in its world-line, the Universe will obtain its maximum size and begin to contract to its minimum radius of ~3x10^11 light years Immodest Conclusion: all from this TOE by Randall Mills Maxwell's equations, Planck's equation, the de Broglie equation, Newton's laws, and Special, and General Relativity are now Unified.. If you have the time to download this amazing document, along with some = very nice visualizations, over 100 pages and a tasty mixed-grill... then = by all means, indulge yourself. There is a lot of potentially brilliant = information here, mixed in with lots of potential BS. Caveat Lector. But = remember, if you do not adequately separate the wheat from the chafe... = well, you get the extra fiber, so that is not all bad, and helps keep = you 'regular'...this is mostly new from the BLP site.=20 http://www.blacklightpower.com/pdf/Theory%20Pres%20020905%20std%202.pdf To me, one of the more interesting images in this new material is the OS = (orbitsphere) which now looks like a truncated sphere with both ends = missing. Not what I had been thinking. Here is the tantalizing bit (not new, but certainly relevant to current = threads on vortex about how to best way to store energy, especially wind = and solar), for which Mills appears to be claiming as fact certain = evidence which he has not produced, despite many appeals, and therefore = likely cannot produce any time soon... but he hasn't removed or = qualified the claims: Battery Comparison (from the BLP site) The energy density projection for BLP's battery is as high as 10,000+ = watt-hours per kilogram. The voltage of BLP's battery may be 70 volts = compared to the average voltage for a lithium-ion battery of 3.6 volts. = BLP's battery compound may release about 100 times the energy and 1,000 = plus times the power of any other conventional chemical used in = batteries.=20 If Mills could better document this, as well as many other of his = claims, of if anyone could reproduce them independently there would = be... not millions, not even a few billion, but tens of billions of = dollars available to develop the whole works. Instead, what do we have? = More fancy papers and more vacuous claims. At some point after 15 years of excuses, even his apologists are going = to have to drop the spiel that "these things always take longer to = develop then people realize," and ask themselves why, if there is any = truth to it, that the public should not demand government intervention, = due to global warming and the impending crisis of artic methane = poisoning, etc and commandeer this research (and pay Mills its worth, of = course, after that has been determined) and incorporate it into a new = Manhattan project. If Mills claims were true, and there are growing doubts from many former = supporters, then the impending environmental crisis makes it that = important... that we by-pass the reluctant inventor and get some real = action going, rather than just more rhetoric and fancier papers and pdf = presentations. Jones ------=_NextPart_000_0070_01C5180C.A7A1CC40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

One of the most frustrating things about the internet, = especially to=20 any alternative energy advocate who seeks to find, weed-out and = support, in=20 every reasonable way, or even try to replicate ... the *best reasonable* = solutions available which address the looming fossil-fuel-reliance = catastrophe=20 is...
 
1) No, it is not the plethora of fly-by-night scam artists like GWE = (Genesis) Dennis Lee, Gardner Watts, Tilley, Lutec, and the others=20 documented by the (always over-inclusive) "crank" sites, like Kreig's: = Those=20 unscrupulous promoters who taint the entire field, by recognizing (as = all good=20 crooks can) - the 'johns' - the 'easy pickin's' available when = wealthy=20 individuals who have a social consciousness (but do not have much = sophistication=20 in appreciating what is feasible and what is not feasible.) are out = there.=20 Caveat emptor.
 
2) No, it is not well-meaning, sometimes brilliant but often=20 self-deceived or at least hard-to-comprehend experimenters and = theorists, who=20 are not seeking financial gain, but yet are promoting ideas which are = likely to=20 be dead-end from the get-go. These go back to Leonardo da Vinci, = Bernoulli, and=20 even Isaac Newton. The problem here is separating the wheat from the = chafe and=20 often that involves personal viewpoints. No problem with that, either. = It is=20 well-documented that many of the greatest inventors, = visionaries and=20 creators throughout history have been borderline psychotic and see = things that=20 more focused scientists will miss.
 
3) No, its not the web sites which specialize in rehashing old = scams,=20 alien technology, missed-opportunity-nostalgia, suppressed = inventions and=20 failed ventures like those of Keeley, Hamil , Hendershot, DePalma, = etc. or=20 in egregious over-optimism about every little puffed-up item which = appears on=20 the PR-sites or in the vanity press. These can be mildly humorous.
 
Instead the really frustrating information is the tantalizing stuff = which=20 appears from brilliant, well funded, probably genius-level researchers = like=20 Mills/BLP who will publish tantalizing bits of apparently apocryphal (at = least=20 certainly unattainable in the short run) speculation, but cannot produce = any=20 real evidence to back it up, and then have the gall to claim = "independent=20 verification" when everyone who tires to duplicate it fails. More on the = hydrino=20 battery at the end.
 
But first, to consolidate two postings on Mills into one:
 
In case you were wondering:

How heavy is everything:
The = initial=20 mass of the Universe based on the size, age,
Hubble constant, = temperature,=20 density of matter, and power spectrum is
2 X 10^54 kg...  give = or take a=20 few ounces

How old is the universe? Infinitely old, as it = oscillates=20 on
a long cycle but never collapses all the way:

Thus, the = observed=20 Universe will expand as mass is released
as photons for = ~500,000,000,000=20 years to its maximum radius
of 2x10^12 light years.. At that point in = its=20 world-line,
the Universe will obtain its maximum size and begin=20 to
contract to its minimum radius of ~3x10^11 light=20 years

      Immodest = Conclusion: all=20 from this TOE by Randall Mills

Maxwell's equations, Planck's equation, the de = Broglie
equation,=20 Newton's laws, and Special, and General Relativity
are now=20 Unified..

If you have the time to download this amazing document, = along=20 with some very nice visualizations, over 100 pages and a tasty=20 mixed-grill... then by all means, indulge yourself. There is a lot = of=20 potentially brilliant information here, mixed in with lots of potential = BS.=20 Caveat Lector. But remember, if you do not adequately separate the = wheat=20 from the chafe... well, you get the extra fiber, so that is not all bad, = and=20 helps keep you 'regular'...this is mostly new from the BLP = site. 

http://www.blacklightpower.com/pdf/Theory%20Pres%20020905%20std%2= 02.pdf
 
To me, one of the more interesting images in this new material is = the OS=20 (orbitsphere) which now looks like a truncated sphere with both ends = missing.=20 Not what I had been thinking.
 
Here is the tantalizing bit (not new, but certainly relevant to = current=20 threads on vortex about how to best way to store energy, especially wind = and=20 solar), for which Mills appears to be claiming as fact certain evidence = which he=20 has not produced, despite many appeals, and therefore likely cannot = produce=20 any time soon... but he hasn't removed or qualified the claims:
 
Battery Comparison (from the BLP site)
 
The energy density projection for BLP's battery is as high as = 10,000+=20 watt-hours per kilogram. The voltage of BLP's battery may be 70 volts = compared=20 to the average voltage for a lithium-ion battery of 3.6 volts. BLP's = battery=20 compound may release about 100 times the energy and 1,000 plus times the = power=20 of any other conventional chemical used in batteries.
 
If Mills could better document this, as well as many other of his = claims,=20 of if anyone could reproduce them independently there would be... not = millions,=20 not even a few billion, but tens of billions of dollars available = to=20 develop the whole works. Instead, what do we have? More fancy papers and = more=20 vacuous claims.
 
At some point after 15 years of excuses, even his apologists are = going to=20 have to drop the spiel that "these things always take longer to develop = then=20 people realize," and ask themselves why, if there is any truth to it, = that the=20 public should not demand government intervention, due to global = warming and=20 the impending crisis of artic methane poisoning, etc and commandeer this = research (and pay Mills its worth, of course, after that has been = determined)=20 and incorporate it into a new Manhattan project.
 
If Mills claims were true, and there are growing doubts from many = former=20 supporters, then the impending environmental crisis makes it that = important...=20 that we by-pass the reluctant inventor and get some real action going, = rather=20 than just more rhetoric and fancier papers and pdf presentations.
 
Jones
------=_NextPart_000_0070_01C5180C.A7A1CC40-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 21 12:25:41 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1LKPNEC027715; Mon, 21 Feb 2005 12:25:24 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1LKP786027602; Mon, 21 Feb 2005 12:25:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 12:25:07 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 11:24:48 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Some Potapov at LANL highlights Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57936 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 10:46 AM 2/21/5, thomas malloy wrote [in the BBC Horizon to feature Taleyarkhan] thread: >Do you recall what the thermal efficiency that LANL observed was? It was measured 98 percent, which I assume includes a 2 percent error. Following or some hilights from the vrtex posts at the time. At 11:52 AM 2/13/96, Schaffer gav.gat.com wrote: >> Re: Japanese Yusmar Experiments. >> >>One of my friends is now at Wakabayashi-san, the professor >>of Japanese at our local University for a complete translation >>of the documents coming from FIELD CO. However I was able to >>understand the raw data for two experiments. >>The setup is with immersed pump plus a Yusmar in a metal container. >>The water is recirculated in the container. >> >>1-st experiment. >>300 liters of water are heated from 23.5 to 55.2 deg Celsius in >>100 minutes. The motor takes 11.5 Amps. (380 Volts). >> >>2-nd experiment. >>150 liters of water are heated from 31.0 to 87.6 deg Celsius in >>170 minutes. The motor takes 7.5 Amps. (380 Volts). >> >If this is a normal 3-phase power system, the total volt-amp into the motor >is given by (Sqrt 3) X V_line-line X I_line. In Exp. 1 this is (1.73)(380 >V)(11.5 A) = 7.6 kVA, and in Exp. 2 it is 4.9 kVA. > >The thermal power is (sp. heat)(mass)(delta T)/time, if heat leaks are >negligible. (If heat leaks were significant, then that fact should be >mentioned; otherwise the data do not characterize the Yusmar.) In Exp. 1 >the thermal power is (4185 j/kg/C)(300 kg)(31.7 C)/(6000 s) = 6600 j/s = >6.6 kW. In Exp. 2 the result is 3.5 kW. > >In neither experiment does the raw data support a claim of over unity. > >Michael J. Schaffer michael.schaffer gat.com >Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4156 >General Atomics, PO Box 85606, San Diego CA 92186-9784, USA At 10:59 AM 7/24/96, Chris Tinsley wrote: >Frank, > >Give my regards to Peter Glueck, who is a nice guy. But you should appreciate >that whilst I wish you all good fortune with the Yusmar at LANL, Potapov took >'our' (Jed Rothwell's and Athur C Clarke's) good money for several of the >devices and then *failed even to acknowledge* all our requests for assistance >when they didn't work. And no help was forthcoming for the St Petersburg tests >either. > >It is no good Peter telling you that we didn't do as we were supposed to do. >Scott Little and Gene Mallove are not stupid people, they did their best with >what information they received. > >Please explain to Peter and to Potapov that we are distinctly *unhappy* about >the whole affair, since we acted in good faith which was not reciprocated. > >You should appreciate that we regard the present activities in the US with very >mixed feelings. I suggest also that you communicate these matters to your >business associates. > >I look forward to hearing the responses of those to whom you communicate these >views. > >Chris At 5:12 PM 8/10/96, Ron McFee wrote: >Greetings Vortejanos > >I am please to report that the Yusmar Company representatives Yuri >Semionovich Potapov and his son Semion Yurievich Potapov are presently >in Los Alamos, New Mexico to demonstrate one of their second generation >Yusmar devices. The device is being set up according to the Potapovs' >instructions, and we will begin diagnostics next week. Los Alamos National >Laboratory has signed a limited non-disclosure agreement which I believe >will allow full publication of the test results. Peter Glueck of Cluj, >Romania has accompanied Yuri and Semion and is serving as advisor and >interpreter. The device will have an input power of approximately >5.6 Kilowatts (7.5 HP) of three phase 220 Volt electricity to the motor >and should according to Potapov predictions produce about 10 Kilowatts >of thermal energy. These test are being conducted with limited >discretionary resources by Los Alamos; the Yusmar, motor, pump and piping >being the property of the Yusmar Company. Los Alamos is providing power, >water, and diagnostic testing. The Yusmar was hand carried to Los Alamos >by Yuri, the remainder of the device was procured locally and assembled >in a private Los Alamos machine shop at Yusmar Company expense. > >Regards, Ron At 9:35 AM 8/19/96, FZNIDARSIC aol.com wrote: > Hi all > > John Barron and I are now at home. We had an enjoyable and busy > trip at Los Alamos. We arrived at LanL Friday morning. What I > treat. Double row fences around buildings with guard towers and > signs that say, "Warning do not cross fences buried explosives." > I guess the whole area is land minded. We finally got into area > 26 as guests of the Yusmar company. There we met Thomas Clator > and Ron McFee two very nice people. We spent the day at LanL > and completed several tests. Afterwords, Yuri invited us for > dinner at Ron's house. Yuri cooked us up a fish dinner. It was > very good. Yuri is a good cook. > The next day we travel to Santa Fe to visit with Dr. Ed Storms. > Ed was a very welcome host. He lives in a beautiful mansion on > a the buff of a cliff that overlooks all of Santa Fe. His wife > Carol made us lunch. We sat on the balcony overlooking Santa > Fe and enjoyed it. Carol is a very beautiful and intelligent > woman. Ed Storms and Chip Ransford, who was also there, spent a > few hours with us showing us their work. Ed has quite a set up > in his basement. Ed was very open and explained everything that > he was doing. Chip showed us his reactor. > After visiting storms we met Richard T. Murry, a member of > this list, and reviewed the latest developments in cold fusion. > Richard is sending me some very interesting papers on sono > luminescence. > The tests at Lanl did not come out as well as expected. > The average C.O.P. was .96. John Barron and I were quite > concerned about this. We both are good judges of character and > we know Yuri and Peter are telling the truth. What went wrong? > John Barron, who is an expert in impeller design, and I > discussed it. We think we know what the problem is. In fact I > am quite sure I know what is going wrong. Today the Yusmar is > being shipped from Lanl to our shop in Pennsylvania. We are not > going to test it, we plan to get it working. After we get set > up Yuri is coming to work with us. The device did cavatate but > was not producing anomalous energy. I know why Ed Storms gave > me the clue that I needed. For John Barron, Yuri, and I the > adventure has just begun. > ................................... > > > "The reason that I have seen so far is that I have stood on the > shoulders of giants." Albert Einstein > > My giants are: > > Yuri Potapov, Ron McFee, Hal Puthoff, Scott Little, Frank > Stenger, Tom Clator, Ed Storms, John Barron, Hal Fox, Jed > Rothwell, Gene Mallove, James Patterson, Peter Glueck, George > Miley, and many more. Each of these persons has met with or > openly spoke with me. This has allowed me to see a farther into > the darkness. I plan to use my now clearing but still muddy > vision to get the Yusmar working. We will do it. > > Frank Znidarsic > >  At 4:13 PM 8/19/96, Jed Rothwell wrote: >To: Vortex > >I was mystified by the enthusiastic tone of Frank Znidarsic's's report on the >Potapov tests at Los Alamos. I had been hearing reports of problems with the >pump, delays, breakdowns, and no excess heat. On Saturday the final word came: >the Potapov Device produced no excess heat and the tests at Los Alamos have >been terminated. Then Frank posted this sunny message: > > "The tests at Lanl did not come out as well as expected. The average > C.O.P. was .96. John Barron and I were quite concerned about this. . . > . What went wrong? John Barron, who is an expert in impeller design, > and I discussed it. We think we know what the problem is. In fact I am > quite sure I know what is going wrong." > >I could not imagine why anyone could be so enthusiastic about what appeared to >be an unmitigated fiasco. So I called Ed Storms to get his take on the >situation. He was not present during the tests, but he talked to Znidarsic's, >Potapov, Gluck and others. According to Ed, this is what happened on the >Friday, the last day of testing. There was no sign of excess heat all day. >Potapov said that the pump and equipment "did not sound right." It did not >seem to be cavitating enough. Late in the afternoon they found air bubbles in >the pipes, which probably came from air that had been dissolved in the water. >They bled off the air and tried again. This time, the sound of the machine >changed distinctly and Potapov said it was working right. The temperature rose >more quickly than before. (I do not have any numbers; I hope that someone who >was there will post some.) The pressure also rose sharply. After about three >minutes, a pressure seal broke, and the run had to be terminated. This was >late in the afternoon. There was no time left to repair the thing. The Los >Alamos engineers, who had volunteered to work on this thing for a week said >they had enough. They asked that the equipment be removed and no further >testing be done. I can understand their frustration, although if I had seen >the glimmering of an interesting result I might have stuck it out one more >day. In view of this partial success, Znidarsic's and the others agreed to >move the tests back to their own turf in Pennsylvania. > >Well . . . I hope it works out. > >I would not be as sanguine about these results as Frank is. If I were Potapov, >I would apologize to the Los Alamos staff for wasting their time. At the risk >of sounding like an old fuddy-duddy, let me repeat what I said the other day >about Joe Champion. Put your best foot forward! Be prepared! Potapov was given >a golden opportunity to demonstrate his device at America's preeminent physics >laboratory. He blew it! He should have brought a fully tested system, with a >pump. Chris Tinsley says the pumps in Moldova are attached to external >electric motors, so they could have hooked up a Russian pump to an American >motor. They should have done that here in the U.S. a few months ahead of the >Los Alamos test. They should have run the machine for weeks beforehand. Of >course he should have done that -- who wouldn't? Any junior engineer assigned >to set up a demo system at a trade show would have prepared more >conscientiously than Potapov did. You *must* bring every component you will >need. (If you cannot transport something, you must send someone ahead to be >sure everything is waiting on site.) You must bring spare parts and tools. You >must spell out in advance what you intend to do and bring handouts and sample >data from previous runs. In a demonstration at a National Laboratory the >stakes are high and a professional will take every reasonable precaution to >assure success. As far as I know, Potapov took no precautions and did no >pre-testing here in the U.S., even though we warned him repeatedly that his >machines do not work with U.S. equipment. > >I want to emphasize that I am criticizing this behavior strictly from a >business point of view. This has nothing to do with the scientific content of >Potapov's claims. When you go into Los Alamos to sell bubble gum vending >machines to the Food Service Department you should be prepared to give a >polished, professional presentation. YOU SHOULD NOT WASTE PEOPLE'S TIME while >you scramble to make your machine work! I think any businessman would agree >with me. > >It is a crying shame that these people have *again* blown a wonderful >opportunity. Let me emphasize that: Again! For the fourth time they have >thrown away the chance to achieve credibility! Why?!? The machines were been >tested by Scott Little, Gene Mallove, the Univ. of St. Petersburg. In every >case, Potapov was told exactly what the testers were doing. He was told they >were getting no excess heat. He did not lift a finger to help. If he had only >cooperated last year we could have solved these problems. (Assuming the gadget >actually works, which I find increasingly unlikely.) Potapov could have gone >into Los Alamos with one of our systems pretested and certified to work with >U.S. equipment. We asked *nothing* in return. We bought the Yusmars from him >and paid for the pumps and other equipment (with generous help from Arthur >Clarke). Why didn't he cooperate? Peter Gluck gave bizarre reasons that made >no sense to me or anyone else connected with the project, including a critique >of tent calorimetry straight out of Alice in Wonderland. At first I thought >this was cultural gap between former communists and us capitalists, but I >gather the people in St. Petersburg were as puzzled as we were, so that can't >be it. I will never understand the reasons. Was it anger, fear, distrust, >paranoia, a control fetish, a low opinion of our technical abilities? Did >overweening self-confidence make Potapov think he could march into Los Alamos >without help or preparation? He should have had experienced U.S. scientists >standing by -- people who had worked with this product successfully for >months, who knew it inside out. Gene Mallove or Scott Little would have been >perfect. It would have cost him *nothing* to bring them up to speed, and it >would have guaranteed success. Instead, he made a fool of himself and wasted a >lot of other people's time and money. I hope he did not embarrass Ron McFee >and Tom Claytor, who stuck their necks out on his behalf. They deserve a round >of applause. > >I have seen this same kind self-destructive Inventor's Disease in too many >other scientists, from Pons and Fleischmann, to CETI, to E-Quest. It breaks my >heart. > >- Jed At 12:48 PM 8/20/96, Akira Kawasaki wrote: >Vortexians, > > Shortly after I made the earlier vortex post, I received a telephone >call from Peter Glueck now at Cold Fusion Center in Salt Lake City, >Utah. He did not accompany Potapove to Philedelphia but went on to Utah >to read up on the Center's CF resources. > > According to Peter, the limited tests were conducted during a strict >timetable of one week (five working days -- 9 to 5?). During the first >two days, they were beset by basically electrical problems. The third >day late, after adjustments, definite O/U was achieved. The fourth day, >a cover blew off of the setup and welding resources were not available >around on-site. Efforts to repair and continue were fustrated by lack >of time, freedom of movement (in and out of LANL), concern of LANL for >their own security and everybody's safety, and the built-in >bureaucracy. The fifth day was essentially wasted. So ended the LANL >visit. > > The LANL enviroment reminded Peter of the old days in Communist >Romania and it was not nostalgia. So it was nothing unusual for the >Potapov party but it was not ideal for the purpose that Potapov and >party went there to accomplish or prove for their device and science. > > There was zero computer e-mail access allowed. Extensive video taping >was not outlawed but not permitted(?). External telephone calls were >not encouraged. Not much physical movement to in or out of LANL was >encouraged also. And whatever budgetary limits there were to executing >the tests, it was not allowed to be exceeded although Potapov offered >to pay for it. > > So I am relaying to vortex what I heard from Peter from Salt Lake >City. Perhaps I did not hear everythiong correctly. A more correct >version should be written and posted by Peter when he gets around to >subscribing on the Vortex. > > The LANL instrumentation was great and Potapov will be getting them. > > Confidence in Yusmar's O/U is not shaken by Potapov or Glueck. > > -AK- At 4:44 PM 8/21/96, Ron McFee wrote: > >Greetings Vortejanos > >To balance all second and third hand reports concerning the Los Alamos >testing of Yuri Potapov's second generation Yusmar I will add my own >unofficial first hand comments. We (Tom Claytor, Jon Sollid, Mark Schwab, >et al.) will be publishing an official report which will be publicly >available soon. > >During three days of actively testing of the Yusmar last week no anomalous >energy production was observed. While this does not prove that such a device >can not produce energy under the right conditions, the test was inconclusive >in that no excess energy was observed in any of the tests including the >last one when the pressure was increased. Yuri had predicted in advance >that the device would produce an excess 80% energy. If it had been observed >to produce greater than 5% more energy, then the tests would probably have >continued at an increased level of effort. Since NO excess energy was >observed, it was decided to terminate the tests at the close of business >Friday, August 16th. > >The visit of Potapov and Company which included Yuri, his son Semion, >and Peter Gluck was in my opinion no fiasco. He and his Company have an >open invitation to return for a repeat demonstration of any fully integrated >system whenever they wish. Indeed I hope that the testing at Los Alamos >will encourage Yuri to make his systems available for testing by other >interested parties in the US and other countries. > >The initial testing of the Yusmar were dynamic tests in which initially 5 and >later 7.5 kilowatts of three phase 460/380 Volt power (not the 220 as I stated >earlier) were used to power a submerged motor and pump. This drove water >through the vortex unit in a closed loop back to the pump. At the same time >temperature measurements were made at various locations on the device. The >mass of the device was measured empty and then filled with water so that >the heat capacity of the device was known to better than a percent. By >observing the rate at which the device heated up one could observe whether >any anomalous energy was produced. In all cases the observed heating up >was slower than the energy added to the system in the form of electricity. >When the device was uninsulated there was about a 10% decrement which could >be explained by convective heat losses to the surroundings. When the >device was well insulated, the heat loses were less than 5%. In no case >did the device heat up faster than could be accounted by the input electric >power. The temperature range in which the device was tested was between 25 >and 70 degrees Celsius. > >We would have liked to test the device at a high steady state temperature >with flow meters and a proper heat exchanger. Frank Znidarsic and his partner >John Barron will take delivery of the Yusmar device which as far as I know >is still the property of the Yusmar Company and proceed to test it in this >fashion. Also I believe that the Los Alamos tests may have had too much >air dissolved in the water. By adding a heat exchanger and possibly different >pumps different parameters can be tested than were possible at Los Alamos. > >Instead of a fiasco, I consider the Los Alamos tests to be an initial step >in testing the Yusmars. I hope that the Yusmar Company will begin selling >and shipping units to the US as soon as possible so that everyone can make >their own tests of properly integrated systems. > >Regards, Ron At 11:32 AM 8/22/96, Mark Hugo, Northern wrote: >From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. >Subject: A BROAD COMMENTARY ON THE POTOPOV FIASCO.... >- >I'm still climbing the walls! What, AM I A SIMPLETON or what? I'm frustrated >at both P. and everyone else! If P has a successful device, then >he damned well better get the following components to the US: 1. Pump, >2. Yusmar, 3. Pipe with radiator fins, and probably 4. WATER from his >area. >- >Then one sets up a closed loop. One puts in a standard water company >total flow device (AMETEK, at Surplus places for $50!!!!!!) On puts a >thermocouple on the input to the radiating loop and the output. >- >One puts the differential on the TC's to a chart recorder. On takes a >stop watch and finds out how much flow goes through in a minute. Flow >times Delta T times Cp = power out. Power in is read at the power company's >watt/hour meter going into the building. Am I missing something? System >is run a steady state. Anything between 10% to 50% excess is academic >interest. Anything 0 to 10% excess is observational error. Anything >above 50% has commercial potential. >- >Is that clear enough? Last: If P. CANNOT supply pump, pipe, and Yusmar....then >his sales and alledged success in the former communist block contries is >a fraud. Period. It's a show...he's running a scam... >- >MDH And of course I have to offer my two cents worth... At 10:36 AM 8/27/96, Horace Heffner wrote: >Akira Kawasaki writes: > >>The Volume 1 No. 3 issue of Infinite Energy has the reports of Earth >>Tech's and Mallov group's tests with their Yusmar units. >> >>Page 16, Mallove writes of Mr. Robert Smith of Oakton International in >>Virginia. He saw (and heard) a Yusmar in a cosmonaut training facility >>near Moscow. The sound level of the unit was deafening. >> >>Both Mallove and Little certifies that their units did not make such >>"deafening" sound. Also some physical features inside the exit tubes >>were missing on their units. >> >>Page 21 of the same issue has Earth Tech reporting on Round 3 test on >>July 10, 1995 has this table (one of several: >> Wattmeter Pressure Pressure >># Disk rev. Bath Temp time (inlet) (bypass) >> >>1. 0 27.5 9:37:06 64 +5 >>2. 98 31.8 9:49:50 65 5 >>3. 217 37.0 10:06:00 25 3 >>4. 287 39.8 10:19:20 24 3 >>5. 369 45.2 10:35:20 24 3 >>6. 595 51.5 11:17:00 25 3 >> > >This is a prime example of the ineffectiveness of the bypass of the Yusmar >as a sonic feedback mechanism. The pressure is far too low for it be >effective. It is also placed in the wrong location to be effective in >generating a hammering effect. The best location for such feedback is >where the Yusmar takes its primary input. i.e. at Pc in "TOP VIEW" below. >To utilize amplification of the vortex triode to the maximum the primary >flow should be at Pj with the feedback directed to the flow at Pc. The >pressure bypass was clearly not designed to operate as a sonic feedback >mechanism, but rather as a means of increasing vertical flow by reducing >some of the vacuum in the vortex by entering the Yusmar at O. However, >regardless of where the bypass enters, *some* sonic feedback should occur, >so the bypass should enhance any o-u effect dependent upon sonic >cavitation. It is notable that if the only functionality of the bypass >were to relieve pressure then the "bypass" could simply be fed by splitting >the feed from the pump. > >TOP VIEW > > Pj > | | > | | > --------------- . > Pc ------------- . > . . > . . > . O . > . . > . . . > >Pc - Control pressure >Pj - Main fluid flow pressure >O - vertical drain >.. - walls of vortex chamber > > >The lack of pump cavitation which occurs prior to reading 3 above indicates >that the Yusmar, by itself, can not sustain the required sonic feedback to >generate cavitation. The pump therefore must play a role in achieving the >sonic feedback required for resonant cavitation. Clearly, the Yumar plays >a significant role in heating the water to a point where cavitation takes >less energy. The water is closer to the boiling point, so steam bubbles >form faster and with less sonic energy. As to the o-u heat generation, it >is obvious that it would be useful to put thermistors at numerous places in >the fluid circuits to see if heat is also being generated in the cavitating >pump, the pump outlet, etc. > >So what can be done to improve efficiency, assuming the o-u performance is >due at least in part to sonic cavitation, possibly aided by extreme shear >of the vortex? One possibility is to insert a sound generation device, a >"whistle" in the feed at Pc. Another is to insert the whistle in the >bypass and supply it from the main pressure feed: > > >TOP VIEW > > > --------------- . > Pc ------------- . > || . . > || . . > |===W======== O . > . . > . . . > >Pc - Control pressure >Pj - Main fluid flow pressure >O - vertical drain and entrance to vortex tube >.. - walls of large vortex chamber >W - whistle device > > >This has the effect of meeting pressure relieving the needs of the bypass >while providing sonic vibrations transverse to the shear planes of the >vortex. The sonic waves travel right down the vortex tube due to their >introduction right above O, the entrance to the vortex tube from the large >vortex chamber. It could be that the combination of shear and transverse >sonic vibrations is a key ingredient to o-u. > >The sonic contribution of W can be piezoelectrically, mechanically, or >fluidicallly generated or controlled, and thus is under much more >controlled conditions for experimental purposes. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 21 12:41:20 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1LKf0EC001152; Mon, 21 Feb 2005 12:41:04 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1LKeqoZ001099; Mon, 21 Feb 2005 12:40:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 12:40:52 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 11:40:48 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: NASA: Evidence of Life on Mars Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57937 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 2:32 PM 2/21/5, Standing Bear wrote: >On Wednesday 16 February 2005 16:52, Horace Heffner wrote: >> At 11:45 AM 2/16/5, Terry Blanton wrote: >> >There, they finally said it: >> > >> >http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/mars_life_050216.html >> >> It's about time. However, they seem to be barking up the wrong tree, or is >> that down the wrong hole? >> >> Unless there is substantial vulcanism, or indigenous radiactivity, water >> based life is not going to live deep. It is too cold. Frozen critters >> don't metabolize well. Only the surface warms up. Water vapor does >> percolate to the shallow surface in sunshine. At least we saw evidence of >> what appeared to be that in the photos. Water based life must be right on >> top. No surprise there, the "canals" have been seasonally advancing and >> retreating for decades. Better to look for examples above the arctic >> circle than in Spain. >> >> Regards, >> >> Horace Heffner > >Hello All, > Why be so sure that Mars is geologically dead. Mars is not geologically dead. There are clear signs of current vulcanism. The question at hand is whether there is substantial enough vulacanism that it can correlate with the wide areas of seasonal methane generation. Personally I doubt it. I think there is a good potential for life forms adapted to surface life presently. > Anybody that works >outside here on Earth knows that when one digs, one finds heat however >low in intensity. The depth of frost penetration is a known engineering >factor used in the design of foundations among other things. > Any miner will tell you that when you dig deep into the Earth you find >warmth, and the deeper you go, the warmer you get. Just digging less than >six inches here in Michigan in the dead of winter and one will find unfrozen >ground. The average surface temperature on Mars is way lower. Permafrost in the arctic, which is way warmer than Mars, can go downs hundreds of feet and never thaw - well, until these days. Down a few thousand feet where the oil is things are a bit hot though. >Soil is high porosity so this is all the more 'remarkable' for the >insulation provided by a little soil so easily defeats the coldest winter. >It has been up to twenty below zero here and our lake probably has an >ice depth of less than a foot! This would be different situation if there were Martian surface temperatures for millenia. > Like Jurassic Park's character Ian the chaos theory guy says: ..."Life >will find a way!". Sound's reasonable! This also applies to surface conditions though, which periodically thaw and thus can support life, especially life capable of metabolizing sulfides. [snip other sensible stuff] Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 21 12:45:29 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1LKjBEC002880; Mon, 21 Feb 2005 12:45:12 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1LKj3OR002826; Mon, 21 Feb 2005 12:45:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 12:45:03 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 11:45:06 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Some Potapov at LANL highlights Resent-Message-ID: <1On0CD.A.Bs.PhkGCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57938 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Slight correction: At 10:46 AM 2/21/5, thomas malloy wrote [in the BBC Horizon to feature Taleyarkhan] thread: >Do you recall what the thermal efficiency that LANL observed was? It was measured 96 percent, which I assume includes a 4 percent error. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 21 13:40:12 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1LLdsEC026999; Mon, 21 Feb 2005 13:39:55 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1LLdpGr026980; Mon, 21 Feb 2005 13:39:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 13:39:51 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Incredible battery and TOE Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 08:39:43 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <007301c5184f$b65c1c20$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> In-Reply-To: <007301c5184f$b65c1c20$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j1LLdlEC026924 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57939 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jones Beene's message of Mon, 21 Feb 2005 11:58:28 -0800: Hi, [snip] >here, mixed in with lots of potential BS. Caveat Lector. But remember, if you do not adequately separate the wheat from the chafe... well, you get the extra fiber, so that is not all bad, and helps keep you 'regular'...this is mostly new from the BLP site. > >http://www.blacklightpower.com/pdf/Theory%20Pres%20020905%20std%202.pdf > The date forms part of the title. This is 2 1/2 years old. [snip] >Here is the tantalizing bit (not new, but certainly relevant to current threads on vortex about how to best way to store energy, especially wind and solar), for which Mills appears to be claiming as fact certain evidence which he has not produced, despite many appeals, and therefore likely cannot produce any time soon... but he hasn't removed or qualified the claims: > >Battery Comparison (from the BLP site) > >The energy density projection for BLP's battery is as high as 10,000+ watt-hours per kilogram. The voltage of BLP's battery may be 70 volts compared to the average voltage for a lithium-ion battery of 3.6 volts. BLP's battery compound may release about 100 times the energy and 1,000 plus times the power of any other conventional chemical used in batteries. Personally, I doubt this will ever happen. The primary reason being that you don't get 70 V until n=1/16, by which time IMO, you get fusion instead, so there aren't going to be a whole lot of n=1/16 hydrinos lying around. Furthermore, the energy density is based on 70 V and the mass of the hydrino, if I don't miss my guess, but this appears to ignore the mass of the structural materials of the battery (but you may be able to make a battery that is qua volume and mass largely fuel). Besides, with disproportionation reactions probably taking place in any such battery, it's likely to overheat, and eventually, possibly explode. There is also the difficulty of working with hydrinos at multiple different levels of shrinkage concurrently, and the consequences this would have for battery voltage. > >If Mills could better document this, as well as many other of his claims, of if anyone could reproduce them independently there would be... not millions, not even a few billion, but tens of billions of dollars available to develop the whole works. Instead, what do we have? More fancy papers and more vacuous claims. The claim is years old. As time passes, Mills tends to leave these things on the back burner, and concentrate on what he believes is most likely to work best. If you want to benefit from his experience, then concentrate on what he is currently working on. > >At some point after 15 years of excuses, even his apologists are going to have to drop the spiel that "these things always take longer to develop then people realize," and ask themselves why, if there is any truth to it, that the public should not demand government intervention, due to global warming and the impending crisis of artic methane poisoning, etc and commandeer this research (and pay Mills its worth, of course, after that has been determined) and incorporate it into a new Manhattan project. The public rarely demands action on matters so esoteric (to them). In fact 99% (at least) of the public, has never even heard of Mills. Most of those that have, are sitting back and waiting for him to do the hard work, then when he's got something that works well, someone will steal it. > >If Mills claims were true, and there are growing doubts from many former supporters, then the impending environmental crisis makes it that important... that we by-pass the reluctant inventor and get some real action going, rather than just more rhetoric and fancier papers and pdf presentations. There is nothing to stop others from doing development work. In fact there are a number of others who's work may well at least in part depend on hydrino formation (e.g. Betavolt), even if they are not aware of it (or in some cases don't believe it). The bottom line is that in the long run, "hydrinos" are going to be important primarily as a workable path to fusion and transmutation, the only direction in which Mills is loath to go (and possibly in some new materials). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 21 14:22:04 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1LMLeEC015582; Mon, 21 Feb 2005 14:21:40 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1LMLZE1015546; Mon, 21 Feb 2005 14:21:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 14:21:35 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050221171954.02ace280 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 17:21:33 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: For neutron aficionados Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_31397265==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: <-_Wta.A.2yD.u7lGCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57940 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_31397265==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Neutron aficionados will enjoy these papers by Menlove et al. from 1990 and 1991: MenloveHOlowbackgro.pdf MenloveHOreproducib.pdf Neutrons from titanium hydrides. - Jed --=====================_31397265==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Neutron aficionados will enjoy these papers by Menlove et al. from 1990 and 1991:

MenloveHOlowbackgro.pdf

MenloveHOreproducib.pdf

Neutrons from titanium hydrides.

- Jed
 --=====================_31397265==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 21 14:29:58 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1LMThEC020081; Mon, 21 Feb 2005 14:29:44 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1LMTfac020061; Mon, 21 Feb 2005 14:29:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 14:29:41 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050221172658.02ac2260 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 17:27:45 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Sci. Am. comments on CF Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57941 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: See: http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?chanID=sa006&colID=5&articleID=00059015-99C5-1213-987F83414B7F011C PHYSICS Back to Square One Government review repeats cold fusion conclusions By Charles Q. Choi After 15 years, cold fusion got a second chance at legitimacy from the U.S. Department of Energy, often seen by cold fusion advocates as their greatest enemy. This rematch, many hoped, would vindicate the field or kill it once and for all. Instead history repeated itself, with a verdict that evidence remained inconclusive. Conventional physics holds that nuclear fusion ignites at multimillion-degree temperatures. In March 1989 controversy erupted when electrochemists Martin Fleischmann and Stanley Pons, then at the University of Utah, claimed room-temperature experiments with palladium electrodes in heavy water generated heat far in excess of any chemical reaction. The suggestion was that the deuterons--hydrogen nuclei bearing an extra neutron each--making up the heavy water were fusing.... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 21 14:48:27 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1LMmBEC028579; Mon, 21 Feb 2005 14:48:12 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1LMmAi4028564; Mon, 21 Feb 2005 14:48:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 14:48:10 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <010e01c51866$8eac1420$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: Cc: "Frederick Sparber" References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050221171954.02ace280 pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: For neutron aficionados Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 14:42:00 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57942 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jed Rothwell" > Neutron aficionados will enjoy these papers by Menlove et al. from 1990 and 1991: http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/MenloveHOlowbackgro.pdf>MenloveHOlowbackgro.pdf Most interesting. Especially in regard to recent past postings and speculation about capturing ZPE energy from cryogenic cooling. Already, I am ready to put a unique "spin" on this one. That would involve the necessity, in some forms of CF, to use ZPE as a necessary step to achieve fusion, whether it be in BEC coherence or in mass increase or in epo interaction. The details appear in prior postings, but if anyone is interested, I can flesh it out again for this particular situation. It should be noted that only two of the samples showed remarkable levels of neutrons. In one Sample DD-17, please Note the definite cryogenic connection: "We measured the highest neutron emission from sample DD-17. This sample contained 304 g of Ti (6,6,2) contained in a 1 L stainless steel (SS) sample bottle. The sample was degassed at a maximum of 230°C using helium to flush out the remaining air and cleaning agents. During the neutron measurements, LN temperature cycles were performed with a small amount (1 to 4 L) of D2 gas being absorbed during the warm-up from LN temperature. ***On the seventh LN cycle, 17 L of D2 were accidentally added to the sample while at LN temperature.*** About 1 h into the warm-up, a portion of the Ti chips went into a hot exothermic reaction excursion when all of the gas was absorbed in about 15 s. A localized spot on one side of the SS bottle was hot; the rest of the bottle was still covered with frost. The bottle was immediately dunked into LN for 10 min and then removed from the LN and allowed to warm up in the detector. This could be evidence of slight mass increase deriving from increased exposure to cryogenic temperature. Too bad they are not working on this any longer. I would suspect that if they were to "cold-temper" the Ti at liquid He temperatures, and for an extended period, that they would get much more impressive levels of neutrons. But that is just my "spin" (and probably that of Frederick Sparber as well). Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 21 14:49:53 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1LMnaEC029110; Mon, 21 Feb 2005 14:49:37 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1LMnY0l029081; Mon, 21 Feb 2005 14:49:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 14:49:34 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: <72159d5f-24e1-4df5-b03d-a44b0dfe4a10> Message-ID: <03e301c51867$93108a40$0958ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <007301c5184f$b65c1c20$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> Subject: Re: Incredible battery and TOE Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 17:36:21 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57943 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin wrote: > In reply to Jones Beene's message of Mon, 21 Feb 2005 11:58:28 -0800: > Hi, > [snip] > >here, mixed in with lots of potential BS. Caveat Lector. But remember, if you do not adequately separate the wheat from the chafe... well, you get the extra fiber, so that is not all bad, and helps keep you 'regular'...this is mostly new from the BLP site. > > > >http://www.blacklightpower.com/pdf/Theory%20Pres%20020905%20std%202.pdf > > > The date forms part of the title. This is 2 1/2 years old. > [snip] > >Here is the tantalizing bit (not new, but certainly relevant to current threads on vortex about how to best way to store energy, especially wind and solar), for which Mills appears to be claiming as fact certain evidence which he has not produced, despite many appeals, and therefore likely cannot produce any time soon... but he hasn't removed or qualified the claims: > > > >Battery Comparison (from the BLP site) > > > >The energy density projection for BLP's battery is as high as 10,000+ watt-hours per kilogram. The voltage of BLP's battery may be 70 volts compared to the average voltage for a lithium-ion battery of 3.6 volts. BLP's battery compound may release about 100 times the energy and 1,000 plus times the power of any other conventional chemical used in batteries. > > Personally, I doubt this will ever happen. The primary reason being that you don't get 70 V until n=1/16, by which time IMO, you get fusion instead, so there aren't going to be a whole lot of n=1/16 hydrinos lying around. > Furthermore, the energy density is based on 70 V and the mass of the hydrino, if I don't miss my guess, but this appears to ignore the mass of the structural materials of the battery (but you may be able to make a battery that is qua volume and mass largely fuel). Besides, with disproportionation reactions probably taking place in any such battery, it's likely to overheat, and eventually, possibly explode. There is also the difficulty of working with hydrinos at multiple different levels of shrinkage concurrently, and the consequences this would have for battery voltage. MC: A few years back, I had a visit with Mills in his conference room to introduce an overseas visitor who wanted to meet him. In the course of the conversation he said he would be happy with a battery that is twice as good as the popular lithium-ion cell. A long shot from the p=16 battery. I think there have been a few chemical demosntrations along the way. But before any of this can be remotely feasible there has to be a source of lots of pure hydrinos. You get that when hundreds or thousands of BLP reactors are running and hydrino hydrides are collected as byproducts. There is no point in pounding the drum for the BLP battery when the necessary ingredients are not available. There is no point on dwelling on P=16, P=2,3,4,5,6,7 will do just fine as well, and these have been seen in the spectra of reactors. Mills has reported that the reactor gas can be liquefied at liquid nitrogen temperatures, so fractionl distillation is available as a means of purification. There may be a family of batteries with different terminal voltages. If any of this comes to pass, it could make an immense difference in the performance of hybrid cars and lots of other systems as well. > > > > >If Mills could better document this, as well as many other of his claims, of if anyone could reproduce them independently there would be... not millions, not even a few billion, but tens of billions of dollars available to develop the whole works. Instead, what do we have? More fancy papers and more vacuous claims. If one is not allergic to Mills' name on a paper, independent reproduction will be found in papers by Phillips and Conrads, in New Mexico and Germany, respectively. > The claim is years old. As time passes, Mills tends to leave these things on the back burner, and concentrate on what he believes is most likely to work best. If you want to benefit from his experience, then concentrate on what he is currently working on. > > > > >At some point after 15 years of excuses, even his apologists are going to have to drop the spiel that "these things always take longer to develop then people realize," and ask themselves why, if there is any truth to it, that the public should not demand government intervention, due to global warming and the impending crisis of artic methane poisoning, etc and commandeer this research (and pay Mills its worth, of course, after that has been determined) and incorporate it into a new Manhattan project. And just how will this hasten the day, when people like Zimmerman, Baron, Pibel, and Rabitt all agree that the orbitsphere model is terminally faulty [despite the computer animations now on the website]? I am an unabashed "apologist" for Mills, having paid close attention to his work and noted repreatedly that there is a big gap between his reports and viable commercial systems. If you pay close attention you will see that Mills is systematically building a fortress of patents and papers that will protect his investors and partners when the rush begins. He could still fail. > > The public rarely demands action on matters so esoteric (to them). In fact 99% (at least) of the public, has never even heard of Mills. Most of those that have, are sitting back and waiting for him to do the hard work, then when he's got something that works well, someone will steal it. So Robin wants the US governemnt to steal it? > > > > >If Mills claims were true, and there are growing doubts from many former supporters, then the impending environmental crisis makes it that important... that we by-pass the reluctant inventor and get some real action going, rather than just more rhetoric and fancier papers and pdf presentations. On what basis do you say "growing doubts from 'many' former supporters?" > > There is nothing to stop others from doing development work. Absolutely nothing, in fact Mills would be pleased. All he wants are some royalties from commercial developments. > In fact there are a number of others who's work may well at least in part depend on hydrino formation (e.g. Betavolt), even if they are not aware of it (or in some cases don't believe it). That's fine. If there is replicable commercial product, everyone will benefit. Eventually the courts will settle issues of primacy and royalties. Such battles have happened before. Mills has filed application for a huge patent with some 700 claims and hundreds of clauses, covering virtually every variation on the processes he has reported in the past years. Some working devices and a big court battle will be wonderful publicity, one that Mills will probably win. > > The bottom line is that in the long run, "hydrinos" are going to be important primarily as a workable path to fusion and transmutation, the only direction in which Mills is loath to go (and possibly in some new materials). Mills' is reluctant to have any association with CF, LENR, CANR and nuclear phenomena. His path is alliances with large corporations where he appears as the consummate businessman with valuable patents which he can and will defend. He need convince only CEOs and their immediate technical staffs, not the public, nor members of vortex or HSG. He does not want the EPA, the NRC and other agencies involved. There must be nothing in the way of the critical signatures. No doubt when it becomes "real" there will be a rush of imitators. Fine. I suspect that what they will find that the effects reported by Mills will be easy to do if you follow directions and not do something 'new and improved'. Doing something 'new and improved' will require the know-how painfully acquired by Mills in these years of development, and a license to get access to that know-how. In decades, as the technology propagates, know how will also. Regards, Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 21 15:20:28 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1LNK0EC013704; Mon, 21 Feb 2005 15:20:00 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1LNJtpX013633; Mon, 21 Feb 2005 15:19:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 15:19:55 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: Message-ID: <03f001c5186b$c986f740$0958ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <007301c5184f$b65c1c20$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> Subject: Re: Incredible battery and TOE Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 18:14:51 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57944 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I just finished with Robin and I find some of the same ideas here form Jones. (Deep breath) here we go again: Instead the really frustrating information is the tantalizing stuff which appears from brilliant, well funded, probably genius-level researchers like Mills/BLP who will publish tantalizing bits of apparently apocryphal (at least certainly unattainable in the short run) speculation, but cannot produce any real evidence to back it up, and then have the gall to claim "independent verification" when everyone who tries to duplicate it fails. MC: Jones, I thought you were more perceptive than "everyone who tries to duplicate it fails" Who, precisely? Are you referring to the JAP paper the purportedly repeated Mills' H-Ar plasma runs without seeing the Balmer line broadening? Did you not follow my discussion of this on HSG,wherein I quoted Mills that conditions cited (pulsed high power exicitation) had not worked for him either. What Mills used was lower CW excitation, which did work, but that is not what the others did. They failed by not actually duplicating what Mills did, which is clearly spelled out in his own paper. MC: Duplication of Mills work is found in the Phillips papers and that of Conrads in Germany. Mills' name is on these papers as junior author as courtesy. That does not invalidate the work. I have also read the Master's thesis of Dr, Jansson, of Rowan University, which consisted of his own test of the BLP phenomenon using a calorimater from BLP. More on the hydrino battery at the end. But first, to consolidate two postings on Mills into one: In case you were wondering: How heavy is everything: The initial mass of the Universe based on the size, age, Hubble constant, temperature, density of matter, and power spectrum is 2 X 10^54 kg... give or take a few ounces How old is the universe? Infinitely old, as it oscillates on a long cycle but never collapses all the way: Thus, the observed Universe will expand as mass is released as photons for ~500,000,000,000 years to its maximum radius of 2x10^12 light years.. At that point in its world-line, the Universe will obtain its maximum size and begin to contract to its minimum radius of ~3x10^11 light years Immodest Conclusion: all from this TOE by Randall Mills Maxwell's equations, Planck's equation, the de Broglie equation, Newton's laws, and Special, and General Relativity are now Unified.. If you have the time to download this amazing document, along with some very nice visualizations, over 100 pages and a tasty mixed-grill... then by all means, indulge yourself. There is a lot of potentially brilliant information here, mixed in with lots of potential BS. Caveat Lector. But remember, if you do not adequately separate the wheat from the chafe... well, you get the extra fiber, so that is not all bad, and helps keep you 'regular'...this is mostly new from the BLP site. MC: One can make a clear distiction, as I have, from Mills' TOE and the body of experimental work based on the so-called "sub quantum" stae of the hydrogen atom. Mills' papers in senior journals, and his latest patent application, do not depend on the orbitsphere model, now well illustrated on the website. http://www.blacklightpower.com/pdf/Theory%20Pres%20020905%20std%202.pdf To me, one of the more interesting images in this new material is the OS (orbitsphere) which now looks like a truncated sphere with both ends missing. Not what I had been thinking. Here is the tantalizing bit (not new, but certainly relevant to current threads on vortex about how to best way to store energy, especially wind and solar), for which Mills appears to be claiming as fact certain evidence which he has not produced, despite many appeals, and therefore likely cannot produce any time soon... but he hasn't removed or qualified the claims: Battery Comparison (from the BLP site) The energy density projection for BLP's battery is as high as 10,000+ watt-hours per kilogram. The voltage of BLP's battery may be 70 volts compared to the average voltage for a lithium-ion battery of 3.6 volts. BLP's battery compound may release about 100 times the energy and 1,000 plus times the power of any other conventional chemical used in batteries. If Mills could better document this, as well as many other of his claims, of if anyone could reproduce them independently there would be... not millions, not even a few billion, but tens of billions of dollars available to develop the whole works. Instead, what do we have? More fancy papers and more vacuous claims. At some point after 15 years of excuses, even his apologists are going to have to drop the spiel that "these things always take longer to develop then people realize," and ask themselves why, if there is any truth to it, that the public should not demand government intervention, due to global warming and the impending crisis of artic methane poisoning, etc and commandeer this research (and pay Mills its worth, of course, after that has been determined) and incorporate it into a new Manhattan project. If Mills claims were true, and there are growing doubts from many former supporters, then the impending environmental crisis makes it that important... that we by-pass the reluctant inventor and get some real action going, rather than just more rhetoric and fancier papers and pdf presentations. MC: I have already responded to this in Robin's post, and will not repeat it here. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 21 16:57:08 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1M0uOPP018567; Mon, 21 Feb 2005 16:56:25 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1M0uMlD018554; Mon, 21 Feb 2005 16:56:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 16:56:22 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <025c01c51878$76f5f5a0$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <007301c5184f$b65c1c20$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> <03e301c51867$93108a40$0958ccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> Subject: Re: Incredible battery and TOE Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 16:50:11 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: <6TF4cB.A.2hE.1MoGCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57945 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mike, > Mills' is reluctant to have any association with CF, LENR, CANR and nuclear phenomena. Does that sound rational to you? Does that sound like the well-considered logic of a person committed to solving our looming ecological crisis? The cynic might say that it sounds more like an egoist being either selfish, or very deceptive. Does not any executive's responsibilities go beyond the stockholders to society at large? > MC: His path is alliances with large corporations where he appears as the consummate businessman with valuable patents which he can and will defend. OK. What large corporation has signed-on to develop, or to produce, a BLP product? > He need convince only CEOs and their immediate technical staffs, not the public, nor members of vortex or HSG. Has he convinced any CEO to become a manufacturing partner? He tried successfully to convince Capstone, the cutting-edge manufacturer of micro-turbines, and they were ready willing and able, but Mills could not deliver on his end - after saying publicly in 1998 that he expected a commercial product in 18 months. He also said in interviews 8 years ago that he was going public soon. The problem is, if you go public, then you can no longer hide behind a veil of secrecy. Isn't that the real reason why he has not done so? And BTW, has BLP not had at least one major defection from the board of directors? > MC: No doubt when it becomes "real" there will be a rush of imitators. But how many years of patent protection will be left by then? I think the point that you are minimizing here, is not the plodding pace of progress from BLP, but the urgency of doing something meaningful in a national or worldwide effort to begin to eliminate CO2 before it, in effect, eliminates us. If it requires BLP to use deuterium, then you bite the bullet and use deuterium. If it requires you to deal with the NRC, then you deal with the NRC. It is as simple as that. He has been using nuclear materials, and dealing with NRC in his medical research for 20 years. This no-NRC excuse is a big pile of stinking crapola, IMHO. The real point is that if it requires another 15 years for BLP to get a hydrogen-only product to market, then there may be no market left to buy it. OTOH, if it turns out that BLP *could have had* a Capstone turbine product on the market in 2000, one that did use deuterium and did require a license form the NRC, but that Mills did not do this for ego-reasons, then he could share real moral culpability for that little ego-trip. Especially if it turns out that a hydrogen-only product is not do-able at all but that a deuterium-fueled product would have staved-off what will, without question, be a global catastrophe if we delay progress into the next generation. Artic warming is a gigantic risk, a risk of extinction threatening all life on earth, unless something is done soon. This artic methane-release connection is a ticking-time-bomb, and if genius-level people like Mills cannot appreciate that, then our grandchildren, and his, will have no real future, maybe even no survival. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 21 19:53:35 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1M3rFFu028478; Mon, 21 Feb 2005 19:53:20 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1M3rD2H028467; Mon, 21 Feb 2005 19:53:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 19:53:13 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <029401c51891$28d37b40$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: Good shot, Dr. Gonzo Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 19:46:57 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0291_01C5184E.1A331C00" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57946 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0291_01C5184E.1A331C00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I suspect most Vorts are fans of Jules Verne and Arthur C. Clark, even = if they are not whole-heartedly into Sci-Fi. Those two prophets have = shown us that good Sci-Fi easily presages real technological progress. Two other candidates, coming in from the cold, are names to add to that = list of Sci-Fi visionaries who "coulda" invented something useful, given = the resources. Neal Stephenson is one of them. In "Snow Crash," there = were "Smartwheels"... Now, not long after that story appeared, we have = non-pneumatic Snow Crash-like wheels from Michelin:=20 http://www.gizmag.com/go/3603/ Each one consists of a hub with many telescoping spring-like spokes, and = with a normal rubber tread on the bottom to smooth things out. It took much longer for Verne's visions to materialize than = Stephenson's, and that may mean something. The other great Sci-Fi visionary worth mentioning, is Kurt=20 Vonnegut.=20 Is ice-nine (from Cat's Cradle) a possible threat to the world, or is it = the possible savior of humanity ? Vonnegut, the master of the surreal, = would never let you know directly, would he? For those non-Vonnegut fans on Vortex, ice-9 is both real and fictional = - it is a crystalline form of high density solid water which is = stable... http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/water/phase.html ...at and above normal ambient temperatures (at high pressure) and which = is entropically favorable to liquid water - the idea being that a small = seed of ice-9 would quickly solidify any liquid water it contacted, and = in the Oceans it would sink rather than rise, following which, an ice = age would set-in and all life would freeze into not extinction, but = something frosty. For the reason that ice-9 could be a trickster... and Savior, not = Destroyer, one must realize that this very phase structure could be a = relic of how ZPE effects are translated into normal reality - and can = then be engineered to become a possible solution to the world's = impending crisis of methane poisoning...or not. Stay tuned. First, I have to get over a very brief mourning period for = Dr. Gonzo. Can anyone spell nanosecond.=20 I heard that Rush Bimbo said that "at least he was a good shot!". But = what else can you expect for a relapsing junkie? Hunter would say, takes = one to know one Rush, want to borrow my revolver... (please!!) There is no doubt that Hunter liberally borrowed from Vonnegut's = juxtaposition of the surreal, combined with a large dose very twisted = humor. "The marker was an alabaster phallus twenty feet high and three = feet thick" , Vonnegut crows, inviting you to stand in the cold with him = and wonder with the driver, exactly what in hell is going on=85Hunter = could probably answer that one now. And he is probably very cold in the = thin air of Colorado...=20 ...thanks for the laughs, Dr. G. Jones ------=_NextPart_000_0291_01C5184E.1A331C00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I suspect most Vorts are fans of Jules Verne and Arthur C. Clark, = even if=20 they are not whole-heartedly into Sci-Fi. Those two prophets have = shown us=20 that good Sci-Fi easily presages real technological progress.
 
Two other candidates, coming in from the cold, are names to = add to=20 that list of Sci-Fi visionaries who "coulda" invented something useful, = given=20 the resources. Neal Stephenson is one of them. In "Snow Crash," = there were=20 "Smartwheels"... Now, not long after that story appeared, we have=20 non-pneumatic Snow Crash-like wheels from Michelin:
http://www.gizmag.com/go/3603/
Each one consists of a hub with many telescoping spring-like = spokes,=20 and with a normal rubber tread on the bottom to smooth things=20 out.
 
It took much longer for Verne's visions to materialize than = Stephenson's,=20 and that may mean something.
 
The other great Sci-Fi visionary worth mentioning, is Kurt =
Vonnegut.
 
Is ice-nine (from Cat's Cradle) a possible threat to the = world, or is=20 it the possible savior of humanity ? Vonnegut, the master of the = surreal, would=20 never let you know directly, would he?
 
For those non-Vonnegut fans on Vortex, ice-9 is both real and = fictional -=20 it is a crystalline form of high density solid water which=20 is stable...
http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/wat= er/phase.html
...at and above normal ambient temperatures (at high pressure) and = which is=20 entropically favorable to liquid water - the idea being that a = small seed=20 of ice-9 would  quickly solidify any liquid water it contacted, and = in the=20 Oceans it would sink rather than rise, following which, an ice = age=20 would set-in and all life would freeze into not extinction, but = something=20 frosty.
 
For the reason that ice-9 could be a trickster... and Savior, not=20 Destroyer, one must realize that this very phase structure could be a = relic of=20 how ZPE effects are translated into normal reality - and can then be = engineered=20 to become a possible solution to the world's impending crisis of = methane=20 poisoning...or not.
 
Stay tuned. First, I have to get over a very brief mourning period = for Dr.=20 Gonzo. Can anyone spell nanosecond.
 
I heard that Rush Bimbo said that "at least he was a good shot!". = But what=20 else can you expect for a relapsing junkie? Hunter would say, takes one = to know=20 one Rush, want to borrow my revolver... (please!!)
 
There is no doubt that Hunter liberally borrowed = from Vonnegut's=20 juxtaposition of the surreal, combined with a large dose very twisted = humor.=20  "The marker was an alabaster phallus twenty feet high and three = feet=20 thick" , Vonnegut crows, inviting you to stand in the cold with him and = wonder=20 with the driver, exactly what in hell is going on=85Hunter could = probably answer=20 that one now. And he is probably very cold in the thin air of = Colorado...
 
...thanks for the laughs, Dr. G.
 
Jones
 
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_0291_01C5184E.1A331C00-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 21 20:36:33 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1M4aHFu014213; Mon, 21 Feb 2005 20:36:18 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1M4aFsx014183; Mon, 21 Feb 2005 20:36:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 20:36:15 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000a01c51898$04006ec0$3d027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: Good shot, Dr. Gonzo Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 22:36:01 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0006_01C51865.B85F1610"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-98.6 required=4.0 tests=HTML_30_40,HTML_MESSAGE, J_CHICKENPOX_56,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57947 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C51865.B85F1610 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0007_01C51865.B8609CB0" ------=_NextPart_001_0007_01C51865.B8609CB0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankJones, Ice-9. I mentioned staged combustion in the past using ejector throats = in tandem and parallel. Look at fig 17 on the link as a tandem event and = imagine the throats being calibrated to create a vacuum at the side ( = parallel) as an ejector works.except every other ejector discharges into = the side instead of the base. Hmm.. KaBlam ! htt://evgp-ars.narod.ru/shauberg1.htm Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0007_01C51865.B8609CB0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Jones,
 
Ice-9. I mentioned staged combustion in the past using ejector = throats in=20 tandem and parallel. Look at fig 17 on the link as a tandem event and = imagine=20 the  throats being calibrated to create a vacuum at the side (=20 parallel) as an ejector works.except every other ejector discharges = into=20 the side instead of the base. Hmm.. KaBlam !

htt://evgp-ars.narod.ru/shauberg1.htm

Richard

------=_NextPart_001_0007_01C51865.B8609CB0-- ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C51865.B85F1610 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000501c51898$02de0ed0$3d027841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C51865.B85F1610-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 22 05:23:27 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1MDN9Fu032273; Tue, 22 Feb 2005 05:23:14 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1MDN6fj032251; Tue, 22 Feb 2005 05:23:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 05:23:06 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 08:22:59 -0500 From: Erikbaard aol.com To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Evangelical environmentalists MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <20B6CA49.4E1B9436.0242793D aol.com> X-Mailer: Atlas Mailer 2.0 X-AOL-IP: 199.219.152.29 X-AOL-Language: english Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57948 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: There are many messianic movements, cults, and religions that can equally claim that "God/god/gods/goddess is/are "reaching out to man." Also, let's let nitpick over where the literal Bible doesn't fit scientific reality. Otherwise we'll be listing things for days, starting with the geocentric Joshua verses and pi being equal to 3... Erik Baard _________________ I really don't like the word religion, but I use it because that is the word most people expect to see. Religions in general are man's attempts at reaching out to God. Christianity, however, is God reaching out to man. > This raises an additional issue with respect to the literal > interpretation of the Bible. Some people argue that the statements in > the Bible are exactly true even though they were made by men writing in > another language, who believed the earth was flat and was the center of > the only universe, and who were talking to an entirely different > culture. I have read the Bible cover to cover several times but have not encountered in my recollection a verse implying that the earth was flat. I could have missed it. Do you have a reference? ____________ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 22 05:31:47 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1MDVNFu005220; Tue, 22 Feb 2005 05:31:27 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1MDVK43005171; Tue, 22 Feb 2005 05:31:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 05:31:20 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 08:31:09 -0500 From: Erikbaard aol.com To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Evangelical environmentalists MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <796F509A.6E058AB3.0242793D aol.com> X-Mailer: Atlas Mailer 2.0 X-AOL-IP: 199.219.152.29 X-AOL-Language: english Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57949 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: <<< Instead, the Bible contains conflicting statements, allegorical descriptions of creation, and predictions of the future that can be related to events only after the fact. >>> When I was a kid, a remark from a priest went further than most to heal the rift between observed reality and religion: "Jesus taught spiritual truths through story telling. God and Jesus are of one nature. So why wouldn't God inspire the prophets and scribes with instructive stories?" It makes sense. Jesus, as recounted in the Bible, was obviously not one for brickheaded (oh, he was a carpenter -- logheaded) literalism. He was *constantly* telling stories and speaking through analogy and metaphor. Erik Baard From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 22 06:00:55 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1ME0YFu019991; Tue, 22 Feb 2005 06:00:34 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1ME0ULn019965; Tue, 22 Feb 2005 06:00:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 06:00:30 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=hUNgl0eGAho4z52SKpVnPUtEFiw9+PhJJS+JCgj9mbPCg4dI3DFL5OswNQK73hR/3V9HfR0ks63WchBPn7gi4OqxRKKdBqQ+DtuxV/xJPBy6Bhdty8ceWy6ahXiJmzE4qC0ERsb5hyvdJh59ptOjkw+s5v4kDHMuA1Zdl4+gWPQ= ; Message-ID: <20050222140022.93957.qmail web51702.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 06:00:22 -0800 (PST) From: Terry Blanton Subject: Re: Good shot, Dr. Gonzo To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <029401c51891$28d37b40$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1214698455-1109080822=:93635" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57950 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-1214698455-1109080822=:93635 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii How could you leave out HG Wells?!? Of course, the smartwheels were a lot smarter with individual dynamic suspension for each spoke. Duke was probably trying to block a putt and missed. Jones Beene wrote: BODY { BACKGROUND-POSITION: left top; MARGIN-TOP: 25px; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 25px; COLOR: #000000; BACKGROUND-REPEAT: no-repeat; FONT-FAMILY: Arial}I suspect most Vorts are fans of Jules Verne and Arthur C. Clark --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' --0-1214698455-1109080822=:93635 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
How could you leave out HG Wells?!?
 
Of course, the smartwheels were a lot smarter with individual dynamic suspension for each spoke.
 
Duke was probably trying to block a putt and missed.

Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net> wrote:
I suspect most Vorts are fans of Jules Verne and Arthur C. Clark

Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' --0-1214698455-1109080822=:93635-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 22 06:24:07 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1MENpFu028070; Tue, 22 Feb 2005 06:23:52 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1MENoF2028055; Tue, 22 Feb 2005 06:23:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 06:23:50 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050222092310.02b37700 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 09:23:48 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Message from Melvin Miles Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_443046==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57951 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --=====================_443046==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed [This depressing note is from Melvin Miles.] On January 24, 2005 I submitted a White Paper Proposal to Dr. James Decker of DOE. Basically, I proposed experiments to optimize the cold fusion excess power effects by going to higher temperatures. For materials, I proposed using Pd-B alloys prepared by NRL and co-deposition materials prepared by the methods of Drs. Stan Szpak and Pam Mosier-Boss. My proposal was forwarded to Jim Horwitz (tel. 301-903-4894) of DOE (Basic Energy Sciences) who telephoned me on February 17 with his feedback that was mostly negative. Some of his comments are as follows to the best of my memory. 1. Proposals for the optimization of cold fusion nuclear effects cannot be considered because the 18 DOE panel members concluded that such nuclear effects do not exist. 2. Electrochemical cells have been studied to death, for example, by McKubre at SRI. Proposals of further electrochemical studies will likely not be funded by DOE. 3. Any proposed new experiments need an acceptable theory to justify such further studies. 4. More peer-reviewed journal publications are needed before this field can be considered for funding. Because of these points, Jim Horwitz concluded that he could not justify sending my proposal out for review. Based on this experience, I think it is unlikely that DOE will fund any research on cold fusion. If anyone has a more positive encounter with DOE please let me know. Mel Miles --=====================_443046==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" [This depressing note is from Melvin Miles.]

On January 24, 2005 I submitted a White Paper Proposal to Dr. James
Decker of DOE.  Basically, I proposed experiments to optimize the cold
fusion excess power effects by going to higher temperatures.  For
materials, I proposed using Pd-B alloys prepared by NRL and co-deposition
materials prepared by the methods of Drs. Stan Szpak and Pam Mosier-Boss.

My proposal was forwarded to Jim Horwitz (tel. 301-903-4894) of DOE
(Basic Energy Sciences) who telephoned me on February 17 with his
feedback that was mostly negative.  Some of his comments are as follows
to the best of my memory.

1.  Proposals for the optimization of cold fusion nuclear effects cannot
be considered because the 18 DOE panel members concluded that such
nuclear effects do not exist.

2.  Electrochemical cells have been studied to death, for example, by
McKubre at SRI.  Proposals of further electrochemical studies will likely
not be funded by DOE.

3.  Any proposed new experiments need an acceptable theory to justify
such further studies.

4.  More peer-reviewed journal publications are needed before this field
can be considered for funding.

Because of these points, Jim Horwitz concluded that he could not justify
sending my proposal out for review.

Based on this experience, I think it is unlikely that DOE will fund any
research on cold fusion.  If anyone has a more positive encounter with
DOE please let me know.

Mel Miles
 --=====================_443046==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 22 06:24:35 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1MEOOFu028330; Tue, 22 Feb 2005 06:24:25 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1MEOMNo028315; Tue, 22 Feb 2005 06:24:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 06:24:22 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=qwelHtM443Q2yFJdvLjjtYaiV2G8JFKSZSKpJiDflJ22BaXg+oVsYmEm+C2o/vOwQ4yT2p651XtyzGt5EW0ENDMTS6PtU4t5zLBMn2mb1sjHwoRrN1k4HpqOdd2dnlek992iQEfB8pJIN7gS+v1ROrpP1BZYKa/irdLw9w5+IE0= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 07:24:20 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Evangelical environmentalists In-Reply-To: <796F509A.6E058AB3.0242793D aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 References: <796F509A.6E058AB3.0242793D aol.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j1MEOJFu028284 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57952 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: lets also add, with a given that god DID speak to people and the writers of the bible are true prophets, would god have been very literal? you have a group whos barely learned agriculture, nomadic, not much in the way of building. a year seems a long long time to them. you gonna explain the birds and the bees of how the universe was created? nope, a few easy steps. first i did this, than this. then that, and that, and then that. how long? ohh, not long for me. youd think of it as about 6 days. On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 08:31:09 -0500, Erikbaard aol.com wrote: > <<< Instead, the Bible contains conflicting statements, > allegorical descriptions of creation, and predictions of the future that > can be related to events only after the fact. >>> > > When I was a kid, a remark from a priest went further than most to heal the rift between observed reality and religion: > > "Jesus taught spiritual truths through story telling. God and Jesus are of one nature. So why wouldn't God inspire the prophets and scribes with instructive stories?" > > It makes sense. Jesus, as recounted in the Bible, was obviously not one for brickheaded (oh, he was a carpenter -- logheaded) literalism. He was *constantly* telling stories and speaking through analogy and metaphor. > > Erik Baard > > -- "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 22 07:46:53 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1MFkaFu016120; Tue, 22 Feb 2005 07:46:36 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1MFkXKC016097; Tue, 22 Feb 2005 07:46:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 07:46:33 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050222102701.029a58a8 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 10:31:38 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Scientific American again misrepresents cold fusion research Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57953 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: [I am thinking about uploading something along these lines to the web page.] The March 2005 issue of scientific American has a one-page article describing the 2004 DoE review of cold fusion: Choi, C., News Scan: Back to Square One, in Scientific American. 2005. p. 21. The main part of the article is reasonably accurate. It describes the doe report and the conclusions that report reaches. However, the scientific American also added a sidebar, titled "Nuclear Doubts" that includes four statements which are incorrect, and totally at odds with the literature. They are: 1. Helium 4, a suggested cold fusion by-product, was detected at amounts close to background levels. Correction: In some experiments helium-4 has been close to the background, but in others it has been hundreds of times above background. And at least one case the concentration has been above atmospheric helium. 2. Expected gamma rays were not produced; experts doubted the explanation that all energy was generated as heat instead. Correction: gamma rays have been detected in many experiments although not in amounts commensurate with a conventional hot fusion reaction. Other nuclear products including tritium, helium and transmuted elements have also been detected, sometimes at levels millions of times above background. It is a fact that the energy was generated as mainly as heat; these unnamed experts cannot contradict facts established by replicated experiments. 3. Not all chemical explanations for the excess heat were eliminated. Correction: All chemical explanations for the excess heat were eliminated long before Fleischmann and Pons went public 1989. The cold fusion effect has been replicated hundreds of times and laboratories all around the world, and there is not a single instance in which chemical fuel was present in the so or chemical changes were observed. The heat generated by many cells has ranged from 100 to 10,000 times greater than the absolute maximum amount of energy that could be generated by an equivalent mass of chemical fuel. 4. Excess power was only a few percent more than the power applied, suggesting that measurement errors could account for the purported net energy. Correction: Excess power has ranged up to 300% when input power was supplied. In gas loading and heat after death experiments, there is no input power, so any detectable output heat comes from cold fusion, since there are, as noted above, no chemical changes in the cells, and no chemical fuel. The article expresses bias in several other more subtle ways. For example, it repeats spurious claims made by some of the DoE reviewers that top-of-the-line instruments have not been used to measure cold fusion effects. The best instruments on earth have been used to measure excess heat, helium, tritium and transmutations, mainly in Italy and Japan. Top-of-the-line instruments have not been available in the United States mainly because there is so much opposition to the research. Skeptics are complaining that could instruments have not been used yet they themselves are to blame for this situation. Finally, it should be noted that the caption on the photograph says, "cold fusion allegedly occurs in a jar of heavy water with electrodes." Apparently after 16 years, the Scientific American still cannnot distinguish between a "jar" and a Dewar test tube. This is like calling the Mount Palomar telescope "a big magnifying glass." - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 22 08:03:08 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1MG2kFu024073; Tue, 22 Feb 2005 08:02:51 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1MG2gqN024015; Tue, 22 Feb 2005 08:02:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 08:02:42 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050222110120.02b28ca0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 11:02:40 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Scientific American again misrepresents cold fusion research In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050222102701.029a58a8 pop.mindspring.com> References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050222102701.029a58a8 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_6373140==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57954 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --=====================_6373140==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I am still mulling over that statement, and waiting for some reactions. I will upload it later today or tomorrow. Ed will probably want to tone it down. Suggestions and corrections from readers here are welcome. We should also write a letter to Sci. Am., or maybe add something to their on-line forum. Actually, this is the most positive thing Sci. Am. has written about cold fusion since 1989. This is progress, but it is much too slow and halting. - Jed --=====================_6373140==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" I am still mulling over that statement, and waiting for some reactions. I will upload it later today or tomorrow. Ed will probably want to tone it down. Suggestions and corrections from readers here are welcome. We should also write a letter to Sci. Am., or maybe add something to their on-line forum.

Actually, this is the most positive thing Sci. Am. has written about cold fusion since 1989. This is progress, but it is much too slow and halting.

- Jed
 --=====================_6373140==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 22 08:17:10 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1MGGhFu029981; Tue, 22 Feb 2005 08:16:44 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1MGGcpG029942; Tue, 22 Feb 2005 08:16:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 08:16:38 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <003401c518f9$072c6340$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <20050222140022.93957.qmail web51702.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Good shot, Dr. Gonzo Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 08:10:28 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57955 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry, > How could you leave out HG Wells?!? Well, I didn't really ;-) This was really kind of a test to see if there were any "plants" on vortex (agents) who could be outed. I have long suspected that you could be one of them, but you didn't take the bait... or did you? Maybe it is just another machination in the spy-vs-spy maneuverings of rapidly bi-furcating agents from differing convergent realities. Anyway, on the bottom of the Chaplin page re: ice-9 is this amazing little tidbit: The hydrogen bonding is mostly proton-ordered as ice-three undergoes a proton disorder-order transition to ice-nine when rapidly cooled in liquid nitrogen (77 K, so avoiding ice-two formation, see Phase Diagram); ice-three and ice-nine having identical structures apart from the proton ordering. [OK. This is a *very* critical piece of technical evidence which I will return to in another posting]. but first on the lighter side.... Next is the key passage, where Prof. Chaplin dutifully adds, *The ice-nine, described by Kurt Vonnegut in 'Cat's Cradle' , with a freezing point well above ambient under normal atmospheric pressure is fortunately a completely fictitious material, reportedly invented by the Nobel prize winner Irving Langmuir to entertain H. G. Wells.* Imagine that, Nobel prize winner and staid scientist Langmuir, entertaining H. G. Wells with a supposedly "Sci-Fi" story about a special kind of ice. Did Wells himself catch-on to the ploy? Sometimes I suspect that Langmuir and Dirac were twins, separated at birth, and either was himself was meant to be the single latest "plant" in the modern era (in the tradition of Lao Tsu, Socrates, Jesus, Buddha, Mohammed, Newton, etc) who was knowingly or unknowingly acting as... not just a "spy" for a superior alien race, but more as an agent sent to accomplish certain goals and occasionally "slipping up" by giving us glimpses of a future beyond which we were not meant to see. At the given time period... such as, in the case of Langmuir/Dirac, the ultimate intention of the handlers is unknown but was it - to be a future powered by an unknown source of energy (ZPE), and was that intended to be divulged, or was it a slip-up ?.... if... for instance, they had not been somehow separated-at-birth (Coyote-trickster at work ! )... then, of course, we would likely already be in the ZPE-powered era, should that had been the mission all along. Score one for coyote. His torch (Langmuir's torch) was the first ZPE powered device invented in our 3-space, and now we find out that he again slipped up by mentioning ice-9 to Wells. Perhaps much more was meant to be accomplished before the bifurcation. To cover his tracks, of course, should it turn out that harnessing ZPE was NOT part of the intended mission - his "handlers" would have made him concoct the whole "pathological science" thing and shift the weight of scientific thought away from the correct course.... very clever, I must admit. ... or was that the work of Coyote? Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 22 08:54:02 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1MGrgFu028678; Tue, 22 Feb 2005 08:53:42 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1MGrc2B028642; Tue, 22 Feb 2005 08:53:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 08:53:38 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: <229d7e71-1272-409f-9f80-394a96d26eae> Message-ID: <043901c518fe$dae4e180$0958ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <007301c5184f$b65c1c20$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> <03e301c51867$93108a40$0958ccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <025c01c51878$76f5f5a0$d0bcfea9@jonesb9pacbell> Subject: Re: Incredible battery and TOE Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 11:28:11 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57956 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones wrote: > Mike, > > > Mills' is reluctant to have any association with CF, LENR, > CANR and nuclear phenomena. > > Does that sound rational to you? Does that sound like the > well-considered logic of a person committed to solving our > looming ecological crisis? I gave reasons from his earliest days. At that time, and still, CF, LENR, and CANR are popular poison, ridiculed in the press, and now even Scientific American in a fairly balanced article, has a bottom line of "nothing changed". Mills has courted business and wealthy investors and so he has to present a face of a businessman. The looming ecological crisis will be solved only by focused industrial development to make zillions of devices. You have been aware of the technology for some time, I assume you can read the posted technical reports, which show steady progress, and have read my commentaries on HSG about the major engineering problems remaining. Both CF and BLP face major engineering problems before there will be **any** impact on the environmental crisis. Mills has shown several key reactions with high energy density and has done so repeatedly, and reproduction has occurred. Scaling these up to kilowatt levels, and simplifying the support equipment is another matter, as using source gases or water of commercial purity instead of laboratory grade stuff. I don't know what you mean by an association with CF, LENR, and CANR mean. These are nuclear phenomena, and the BLP reactions deal with the electron, and so are chemical phenomena. You, and others, have speculated that a highly shrunken hydrino takes on a neutron-like character and may be a factor in LENR. That may be so, but it is not useful. Mills has reported seeing emission lines he associates with p = 7 hydrinos, and maybe p =16, but I suspect the population is small. Mills has enough problems with the technology he is studying without dissipating his efforts with CF, LENR and CANR. > > The cynic might say that it sounds more like an egoist being > either selfish, or very deceptive. Does not any executive's > responsibilities go beyond the stockholders to society at > large? Just what do you expect? He is working hard along the lines his investors expect, and if he succeeds, the society at large will benefit in a major way, as will his stockholders. > > > MC: His path is alliances with large corporations where he > appears as the consummate businessman with valuable patents > which he can and will defend. > > OK. What large corporation has signed-on to develop, or to > produce, a BLP product? That is in negotiation at this stage and I have no certain information. What I do have suggests that the technical staff of candidate corporations have to convince themselves that Mills' work is valid before they recommend to their management to make a major bet-your-company commitment. A while back I heard that at company X they saw the Doppler line broadening in a plasma and were arguing among themselves about the source of it. That observation in part supports the orbitsphere model, which is condemned by various "authorities" as you well know. So if you are CEO of a potential partner are you going to sink big bucks into a project which may not scale up easily and may have serious problems, like requiring ultra pure reagents to work? Ask the same question about the CF world and the situation is worse. Nobody is offering reliable cathodes for sale. The interesting high energy experiments are rare accidents, not reproducible. Contamination may be a pervasive and hidden variable, but contamination by what? Jed has railed at the CF investigators for years now for not coming out with demo units so the forces of competitive entrepreneurship will solve the ecological crises in the developing world. Further, CF requires deuterium, found in 0.7% of all water. It's a small percentage, but there is a lot of water, so an effectively unlimited supply. But what is the energy cost of extraction? I'm told it costs about as much as beer on the open market. Great, if it is used efficiently, but what percentage of D atoms really get used? > > > He need convince only CEOs and their immediate technical > staffs, not the public, nor members of vortex or HSG. > > Has he convinced any CEO to become a manufacturing partner? Not yet, in negotiation. Some of the early investors in BLP were major utilities. Before you can get a commitment from a manufacturing partner, there must be confidence in patent protection. When BLP gets publicly "real" there will be a rush of imitators and the investors want to be in a position to collect royalties. The USPTO has pulled back one basic patent because it 'violates known principles' or some such thing. The latest applicaiton is massive, not basic, but covering virtually every variation on what has been published. Mills is producing more and more documentation. This is not just theoretical preening -- it builds a formidable defense in what may be an epic patent battle. Industrial partners have to be confident that Mills will win such fights and defend the patents they are paying to license. > > He tried successfully to convince Capstone, the cutting-edge > manufacturer of micro-turbines, and they were ready willing > and able, but Mills could not deliver on his end - after > saying publicly in 1998 that he expected a commercial > product in 18 months. He also said in interviews 8 years ago > that he was going public soon. As he has said several times. He has put up a number of trial balloons of this or that energy extraction method, partly to maintain investor interest. Some may pay off, someday, but the road is rocky. > > The problem is, if you go public, then you can no longer > hide behind a veil of secrecy. Isn't that the real reason > why he has not done so? Secrecy? What secrecy? A website with years of detailed reports of experiments, a massive theoretical magnum opus now online for all to read? What is not published is perhaps months of failure before success in one mode or another, and accumulating know how in scaling up reactions. > > And BTW, has BLP not had at least one major defection from > the board of directors? Who? One technical staff person left for a university position. I believe that one of the original investors, an energy company, had a position the board. but that company was acquired, and the new company apparently decided that BLP in its then state was not on their forward track, and may have pulled their board member. No big deal. > > > MC: No doubt when it becomes "real" there will be a rush > of imitators. > > But how many years of patent protection will be left by > then? Quite a few. The big applications patent may not have been awarded yet, and it would probably have a 20 year run. In the long run, what matters is the head start you have. If you actually read the papers on the website, particularly the Phillips papers, it is evident that the energy yield is a complex function of the operating conditions. So one can cobble together a system from he description in a BLP paper and see the phenomenon, but it may take a lot of know-how to make the yield 100 times as large. I expect a time when lots of people can make BLP reactors, but the best ones will come from BLP licensees, and that may remain so for quite some time. > > I think the point that you are minimizing here, is not the > plodding pace of progress from BLP, but the urgency of doing > something meaningful in a national or worldwide effort to > begin to eliminate CO2 before it, in effect, eliminates us. Plodding? There is Mills, a highly energetic writer, churning out theory and pointing the way. Then there is a handful of PhD lab staff and assistants who have a remarkable output of papers and developments over the last few years. There have been no application papers for about a year now, which is not surprising; as you get closer to applications, the less is said. Look at the current Scientific American for an interesting take on global warming. Based on ice core data, the methane content of the atmosphere closely tracks cyclical variations in solar input to the earth from axial precession. We should have been in a cooling trend for the last several thousand years, headed for an ice age, if it were not for the methane and CO2 produced by human activity. It's now gotten acute. I think the point Jones is missing is that it is already late, and that to impact the methane and CO2 trends will require massive effort, beyond anything that has been done in human history. Take India and China, now reaching for a better life and very hungry for oil. The first use will not be in hybrid vehicles. To change over to CF or BLP driven systems will take many, many years of R&D. I've written about this on these forums many times, and it gets systematically ignored because most readers here are quite clueless about industrial R&D, and I have been there. > > If it requires BLP to use deuterium, then you bite the > bullet and use deuterium. If it requires you to deal with > the NRC, then you deal with the NRC. It is as simple as > that. He has been using nuclear materials, and dealing with > NRC in his medical research for 20 years. This no-NRC excuse > is a big pile of stinking crapola, IMHO. BLP does not 'require' deuterium. Mills has used D in some runs to get spectra to answer some critics, notably Pibel. The BLP process involves electrons, and D and H are just fine. No difference. You missed the point in my previous post. At the time Mills was courting corporate investors, CF was in disrepute [and still is in general], and he needed to clearly distinguish BLP from CF. They are separate. Mills has seen covert and overt attempts to frustrate his advance. At some point in the future, someone may well prompt the EPA to demand that Mills show that hydrinos and hydrino compounds are not toxic. After all, every BLP reactor produces hydrinos. They are new and their effects on biological systems are unknown, and people are scared of surprises like DDT. The fact that any good BLP application should include means to efficiently collect hydrinos for chemical uses, such as hyper-batteries, will be part of the scene. > > The real point is that if it requires another 15 years for > BLP to get a hydrogen-only product to market, then there may > be no market left to buy it. And the same for any CF products. I suspect that there may be an announcement of a BLP-X alliance this year, and perhaps an IPO under a new corporate name for that alliance. At that time, various disclosures will be required. There may never be an IPO from BLP. The arrangement sought is an 80/20 split, with BLP getting an 20% share for the technology and technical support, and the partner putting up all the development money. Having a prototype of, say, a power plant is not the same as achieving a significant market penetration, which may take 15 years. > > OTOH, if it turns out that BLP *could have had* a Capstone > turbine product on the market in 2000, one that did use > deuterium and did require a license form the NRC, but that > Mills did not do this for ego-reasons, then he could share > real moral culpability for that little ego-trip. Especially > if it turns out that a hydrogen-only product is not do-able > at all but that a deuterium-fueled product would have > staved-off what will, without question, be a global > catastrophe if we delay progress into the next generation. Utter speculation, Jones. You have been chasing the notion that BLP is "really" nuclear for some time.That's fine, but it is not consistent with everything that Mills has published on his website. At one time Mills was talking about a thermally driven system with a microturbine and Capstone is a player in the field. I seem to remember some commentary at the time that the performance of the Capstone systems was not as good as advertised. None of these systems make any sense until Mills can increase the energy yield of his reactors to the point that they can overcome the conversion losses and run on water alone. The basic, simple p = 2 hydrino reaction yields more energy per atom than is required to get that H atom from an H2O molecule. That does not include the energy necessary to run the system, and it does not include the losses in a thermal system to take the heat output of a BLP reactor and extract H2 from water. The last time I talked to Mills, several years ago, he said he was about a factor of 4 away from a closed loop. Recent reactor runs have shown a detectable population of higher p values. In one of the Phillips papers, it is mentioned that the energy yield calculations indicate that most of the hydrogen was converted to H(1/4), with substantially higher energy yield per atom. That is very good, but you still have to produce high temperature, high pressure steam to run a Capstone turbine. More attractive is a Stirling engine, which does not require high temperature and pressure. > > Artic warming is a gigantic risk, a risk of extinction > threatening all life on earth, unless something is done > soon. This artic methane-release connection is a > ticking-time-bomb, and if genius-level people like Mills > cannot appreciate that, then our grandchildren, and his, > will have no real future, maybe even no survival. I'm sure Mills can appreciate this as much as you can. There will not be an extinction of "all life on earth" any more than there was in past catastrophes. Our comfortable, fragile, technical civilization may take a hit, however. But going out into the field and pulling on the sprouts isn't going to make them grow any faster. > Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 22 09:46:00 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1MHjj1w031247; Tue, 22 Feb 2005 09:45:46 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1MHjclv031158; Tue, 22 Feb 2005 09:45:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 09:45:38 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=JZESttjHu1cscecpwfdIXIjQMQDtGAk40IfPWxLVlD4GqNFYh2daCdnNbQiRVo2P; Message-ID: <410-22005222216450550 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: ZPE-Pumped Cryogenic Mass Increase & Explosive Antimony Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 10:45:00 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9400442469912fd7663e99e3f1f9bcd2c4f350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.117.189 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57957 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII The poop on "Explosive Antimony" http://www.lateralscience.co.uk/Fluorine/exant.html Note the minus 90 C pretreatment, and that the Trichloride is driven off: http://www.lateralscience.co.uk/Fluorine/Sb.html Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

The poop on "Explosive Antimony"
 
 
 
Note the minus 90 C pretreatment, and that the Trichloride is driven off:
 
 
Frederick
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 22 10:01:46 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1MI1K1w009061; Tue, 22 Feb 2005 10:01:20 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1MI1EB2008969; Tue, 22 Feb 2005 10:01:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 10:01:14 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <3rb42s$l9aadu mxip20a.cluster1.charter.net> X-Ironport-AV: i="3.90,107,1107752400"; d="scan'208"; a="714418622:sNHT28023340" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.12 (webedge20-101-197-20030912) From: To: Subject: Re: Re: Scientific American again misrepresents cold fusion research Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 18:00:32 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57958 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: Jed Rothwell ... > I am still mulling over that statement, and waiting for > some reactions. I will upload it later today or > tomorrow. Ed will probably want to tone it > down. Suggestions and corrections from readers here > are welcome. I was wondering when someone was going to react to the Sci. Am. March article. Actually, Jed, I'm surprised it took you this long! > We should also write a letter to Sci. Am., or > maybe add something to their on-line forum. My only suggestion would be to make sure to site specific references in which to back up LENR's claims. > Actually, this is the most positive thing Sci. Am. > has written about cold fusion since 1989. This is > progress, but it is much too slow and halting. "Non committal" would be my personal interpretation. DOE is sitting on the fence waiting for definitive proof, whatever that is, before they say: "I told you so..." A.C. Clarke has already described this behavior quite eloquently. > - Jed Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 22 10:19:55 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1MIJa1w020484; Tue, 22 Feb 2005 10:19:36 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1MIJZ27020450; Tue, 22 Feb 2005 10:19:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 10:19:35 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050222131526.02a9ea70 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 13:19:09 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Re: Scientific American again misrepresents cold fusion research In-Reply-To: <3rb42s$l9aadu mxip20a.cluster1.charter.net> References: <3rb42s$l9aadu mxip20a.cluster1.charter.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_14573984==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: <3kSTaC.A.a_E.2e3GCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57959 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_14573984==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed orionworks charter.net wrote: >I was wondering when someone was going to react to the Sci. Am. March >article. Actually, Jed, I'm surprised it took you this long! I just noticed it yesterday, thanks to Google Alerts. I subscribe to the print magazine, but overlooked this item. >My only suggestion would be to make sure to site specific references in >which to back up LENR's claims. That is probably a good idea, although it will make the statement crowded. Ed Storms thinks is a mistake to get into a tit-for-tat argument over technical details like this. He is writing a more general statement. Perhaps we can use both . . . We will probably slide something like this into the Special Collection - DoE Report section, rather than making it a new Acrobat file. The Sci. Am. will never published a letter about this, but perhaps they have online discussion groups and someone can insert a message into them. - Jed --=====================_14573984==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" orionworks charter.net wrote:

I was wondering when someone was going to react to the Sci. Am. March article. Actually, Jed, I'm surprised it took you this long!

I just noticed it yesterday, thanks to Google Alerts. I subscribe to the print magazine, but overlooked this item.


My only suggestion would be to make sure to site specific references in which to back up LENR's claims.

That is probably a good idea, although it will make the statement crowded.

Ed Storms thinks is a mistake to get into a tit-for-tat argument over technical details like this. He is writing a more general statement. Perhaps we can use both . . .

We will probably slide something like this into the Special Collection - DoE Report section, rather than making it a new Acrobat file.

The Sci. Am. will never published a letter about this, but perhaps they have online discussion groups and someone can insert a message into them.

- Jed
 --=====================_14573984==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 22 10:53:56 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1MIrd1w002803; Tue, 22 Feb 2005 10:53:40 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1MIrcKI002773; Tue, 22 Feb 2005 10:53:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 10:53:38 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 12:53:16 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: conversation with Parksie Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: <3qRd9C.A.Pr.x-3GCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57960 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I just couldn't resist teasing Parksie, so I sent him the message below, and got the following response. Re: The RNG Global Consciousness >I've heard of it. Is there any reason I should watch it? > >bob Unless you were interested in understanding the strange world according to Quantum Physics, I can't think of a single reason. > >>>> thomas malloy 2/20/2005 4:55:11 PM >>> >Dear Dr. Park; > >I'm impressed that a materialist like you would even acknowledge this >phenomena. It looks to me as though consciousness can transend time. >Now if I can just figure out how to send information through time. > >I assume you've heard of the film What the Bleep Do We Know. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 22 10:54:36 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1MIsK1w003130; Tue, 22 Feb 2005 10:54:21 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1MIsJiS003106; Tue, 22 Feb 2005 10:54:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 10:54:19 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <007301c5184f$b65c1c20$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> References: <007301c5184f$b65c1c20$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 12:54:11 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: Incredible battery and TOE Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57961 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene posted >One of the most frustrating things about the internet, especially to >any alternative energy advocate who seeks to find, weed-out and >support, in every reasonable way, Having seen one after another scam artist come and go over the past 1/3 century, I know what you mean Jones. >1) No, it is not the plethora of fly-by-night scam artists like GWE >(Genesis) Dennis Lee, Gardner Watts, Tilley, Lutec, and the others >documented by the (always Caveat emptor. > I've received several emails for people I know, asking me what I think of GWE. 18 months ago I submitted a proposal to market their Edison electrical generator. I presented myself as an electrical contractor. I signed an NDNC, and returned it. I also told them that I wasn't going to give them any money until I tested the machine, I haven't heard from them sense. >2) No, it is not well-meaning, sometimes brilliant but often >self-deceived or at least hard-to-comprehend experimenters and >theorists, who are not seeking financial gain, I've yet to come across anyone who wasn't interested in financial renumeration. >. It is well-documented that many of the greatest inventors, >visionaries and creators throughout history have been borderline >psychotic and see things that more focused scientists will miss. good point. >3) No, its not the web sites which specialize in rehashing old >scams, alien technology, missed-opportunity-nostalgia, suppressed >inventions and failed ventures like those These can be mildly >humorous. I don't know Jones, we watched a CD of a man explaining how standard EM theory could produce flying disks, I would have taken a nap, but they kept nudging me, it was boring. > >Instead the really frustrating information is the tantalizing stuff >which appears from brilliant, well funded, probably genius-level >researchers like Mills/BLP who will It makes you wonder, doesn't it > > Immodest Conclusion: all from this TOE by Randall Mills > >Maxwell's equations, Planck's equation, the de Broglie >equation, Newton's laws, and Special, and General Relativity >are now Unified.. No vanity in the Mills family > >The energy density projection for BLP's battery is as high as >10,000+ watt-hours per kilogram. The voltage of BLP's battery may be >70 volts compared to the average Wow, with that kind of energy density, I'd think that thing would glow in the dark! Hay Jones, you missed one, the BLP reactor (motor) that was going to produce as much energy per CC as an internal combustion engine. >If Mills could better document this, as well as many other of his >claims, of if anyone could reproduce them? More fancy papers and >more vacuous claims. Reproduce is the critical word, eh. > >At some point after 15 years of excuses, even his apologists are >going to have to drop the spiel that "these things always take >longer to develop then people realize," and Randall must have shown something to his board, OTOH, see my humor posting on Math. >of artic methane poisoning, etc and commandeer this research (and >pay Mills its worth, of course, after that has been determined) and >incorporate it into a new Manhattan project. I refer to my previous post about building a giant refrigeration project to refreeze the arctic. >If Mills claims were true, and there are growing doubts from many former All Randall would have to do is demonstrate a working model of any of the above, and I'll hold my piece. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 22 11:05:57 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1MJ5i1w007824; Tue, 22 Feb 2005 11:05:44 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1MJ5dG8007790; Tue, 22 Feb 2005 11:05:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 11:05:39 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050222140432.02b83970 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 14:05:28 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Incredible battery and TOE In-Reply-To: References: <007301c5184f$b65c1c20$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_17352875==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57962 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_17352875==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed thomas malloy wrote: >All Randall would have to do is demonstrate a working model of any of the >above, and I'll hold my piece. Peace! I do not even what to think about what "holding your piece" might mean. - Jed --=====================_17352875==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" thomas malloy wrote:

All Randall would have to do is demonstrate a working model of any of the above, and I'll hold my piece.

Peace! I do not even what to think about what "holding your piece" might mean.

- Jed
--=====================_17352875==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 22 11:13:13 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1MJCq1w010780; Tue, 22 Feb 2005 11:12:53 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1MJCp6Y010762; Tue, 22 Feb 2005 11:12:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 11:12:51 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <008101c51911$a4d83b60$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Cc: References: <410-22005222216450550 earthlink.net> Subject: Re: ZPE-Pumped Cryogenic Mass Increase & Explosive Antimony Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 11:06:41 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57963 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Fred, Once again we see evidence of extremely energetic mechanical failure, which can be due to brittle failure, or to phase-shift (allotrope) failure. This is totally off-the-books of normal energy accounting because the energy derives from ZPE. "By itself, when subjected to a sharp blow, an electric spark, or when heated to 110 - 120 deg C with a evolution of 19,600 calories per gram". That's about 6 times the energy of burning H2 plus O2 to a gram of water. :-)" Note that both Antimony an Bismuth expand on solidifying." Yes. The similarity of exploding Sb with exploding ice is striking. Using ice-9 instead of normal ice should far exceed this figure, IF it can be kept in a micro-particulate form and injected with perfect timing into a cylinder at the instant of ignition of a lean gasoline (or other fossil fuel or **especially** an H2 explosion). If even 5% by volume of ice-9 can be encapsulated in LN (while bypassing the ice-2 formation stage); which then is injected into a diesel at the high-end injection pressure for a HEUI diesel (30,000 psi) http://www.dieselpage.com/art1110ds.htm ...one can theoretically raise the Carnot efficiency of the fuel (excluding the cryo-component) to about 300% effective Carnot, or fully 15 times above normal. In effect, this should give one about 400 mpg equivalent mileage for a 200 HP engine. But with that kind of efficiency - forget the gasoline and go with on-board H2 !! and be totally eco-friendly. Forget fuel cells. Forget hydrinos. Forget LENR. Lets develop the hydrogen-fueled cryo-diesel... With this kind of efficiency you can actually make your required H2 fuel additive on-board, on-the-fly. Consequently on fill-up (at home), one would take on only LN or CA (cryo-air) and water only. Both the ice-9 and the H2 initiator would be manufactured on-the-fly in the automobile. About 30% of you net horsepower would go to making the necessary H2 via electrolysys, but the real power of the engine would derive from the exploding ice-9 and the capture of the 800:1 expansion ratio of the cryo-component. IOW with 200 HP available, you would devote 65 HP to onboard electrolysis and 135 HP to powering the vehicle. Air conditioning is a bonus. You can go full-blast AC with the top-down, if you so desire, or even drive the Hummer to the Sierra Club meeting with full impunity. Your only emmision is cold air and water vapor. Now...did I get that right, Irving and Paul ? ... or is it still too soon for this announcement, and will you have to alert an agent, in order to send in the trickster once again? Not to worry, hardly anyone with the necessary resources listens to vortex anyway.... all sound and fury, signifying nothing.... Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 22 11:24:19 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1MJO41w016144; Tue, 22 Feb 2005 11:24:05 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1MJO2J0016119; Tue, 22 Feb 2005 11:24:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 11:24:02 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050222192018.006966a8 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 19:20:18 +0000 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Higher Order Conservation Laws of Motion. Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57964 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In previous posts the idea of a series of increasing orders of derivatives of length with respect to time has been chewed over. It will be helpful to recapitulate the discussion by using excepts from the Vortex archives. On the subject of imagining what these derivative mean physically, we have. ======================================================== ...Funny you should say that, Richard, because I've been pondering how one could physically visualize high order derivatives of distance with respect to time. dL/dT ......VELOCITY .......moving scenery - no problem d2L/dT2 ....ACCELERATION ...being pushed back in ones seat as the plane takes off - no problem d3L/dt3 ....JERK............Mmm..more difficult - being hit over the head with a bottle perhaps? d4L/dT4 ....JOUNCE..........I have no feeling whatsoever for this or high derivatives. But the failure to visualise these higher order derivative is because I am thinking in terms of straight line motion. If I think instead in terms of circular motion, or better still, helical motions, then things become very much easier. If I allow myself to be pinned to the wall of a fairground centrifuge then I can experience being "pushed back in my seat on a continuous basis. By imposing a circular motion on this circular motion to form an open vortex helix I can visualize the next derivative, though I am well past the age where I would want to experience it - and so on - and so forth. ======================================================== On the topic of visualisation Keith Nagel wrote, ====================================================== Also, you mentioned Jerk and Jounce ( sounds like a b-list rap group ). I've also puzzled over the physical meaning of these terms. It's rather like trying to imagine higher dimensional shapes. One dimension up is about all I can muster, which in this case is Jerk. Standing on a carousel, with the speed increasing and decreasing sinusoidally, ought to do it. Perhaps a better term would be "projectile vomiting" rather than jerk, huh??? (grin). ====================================================== The discussion then wandered off into considering the outcome of experiments with coil-coils and coil-coil.... coils - and a host of other topics - as discussions on Vortex frequently do - which is, of course, one of the delights of the Group. One is not artificially constrained to narrowly keep to the point. 8-) I can now see another way of visualizing the higher order differentials but before doing that I would like to state something I have realised in relation to the conservation laws. We have:- ======================================================= SYMBOL DERIVATIVE PROPERTY CONSERVED dL/dt velocity momentum yes d2L/dt3 acceleration energy yes d3L/dt3 jerk angular acceleration yes d4L/dt4 jounce rate of change Err...? of ang.acc. d5L/dt5 Err...? RoC of RoC Err...? of ang.acc. ....... ..... ........... ....... dnL/dtn ... ======================================================= It has become increasingly clear to me that each derivative is associated with a conservation law of its own. In short there are an indefinitely large numbers of conservation laws of motion. The reason we fail to see this is that we are hag ridden by Cartesian Geometry and its unbounded x, y and z dimensions. The coil-coil...coil visualization discussed previously on Vortex avoided this trap because it implicitly involved upper and lower bounds to the size of the coils. It is interesting to note that the calculus also avoids the Cartesian trap by not associating length with the Cartesian space. The calculus allows us to have any number of independent dimensions since no finite amount of the (n+1)th derivative will give us a nth derivative. In the Cartesian case we can move from x (length) to y (area) to z (volume)- but beyond that we are stuffed. In Keith's post he got as far as the third derivative (angular acceleration) by "Standing on a carousel, with the speed increasing and decreasing sinusoidally,..." but could take it no further. I have now discovered how to generate physical equivalents of d4L/dt4 and all higher derivative motions with devices that anyone who is familiar with the action of gyroscopes can readily visualise and understand. Consider the Mechanism set out in http://tinyurl.com/4qc9g This is a gyro consisting of an outer ring of 8 gyros. The eight outer ring gyros (2nd order gyros) are free to rotate around their extended axles. These axles are fixed rigidly to the central hub so that the rotating 2nd order gyros are forcibly constrained to follow a circular path when the central hub is rotated. Now I have chosen 8 gyros for pedagogic purposes since it is easy to visualise the solid outer ring of a classic gyro being replaced by multiple small gyros. However, to take the physical example to d4L/dt4 and higher order derivative motions it is easier to think in terms of only a single pair of opposed gyros. A diagrammatic representation of a 7 order device is shown in: http://tinyurl.com/6qus9 As you can see, it makes a rather nice Iterative Hierarchical (IH) fractal pattern. The different orders are indicated by different colours. At this point it is worth repeating something from a previous post. Cartesian geometry as taught at school is a mathematical abstraction. It can't be applied willy-nilly to the real world. In that world real things have upper and lower bounds so one must use an x, y, and z geometry which also has upper and lower bounds. This means that we can nest as many spaces as we like in the manner of Russian dolls or Chinese boxes. In this case the upper and lower bounds of IH orders are quite obvious if you think about it. A gyro of the nth order is bounded in size by the gyros of the (n+1)th and the (n-1)th orders. Likewise with every other order. It's precisely the same situation as with the "coiled-coiled-coiled-........coil" mentioned in a previous post. Like the different order of gyros, each different order of coils implicitly has an upper and lower bound since a coil cannot be smaller than twice the diameter of the wire, nor larger than the next coil up the pecking order. Interestingly enough the IH fractal can be seen as an attenuated version of the turbulent structure of water. In the words of the poet, ==================================== Big whorls have little whorls That feed on their velocity, And little whorls have lesser whorls And so on to viscosity. - Lewis F. Richardson - ==================================== And the power laws discovered for water vapour are no doubt a reflection of their fractal dynamic structure. Cheers Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 22 11:33:55 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1MJXd1w020226; Tue, 22 Feb 2005 11:33:40 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1MJXZ3a020177; Tue, 22 Feb 2005 11:33:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 11:33:35 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=qJpqcDR6xZTW8LjpH0b07ekVwna2zMPGpIvKutNsTKZLXRY2jmBwh9NhCrECvlfOViMNqxC1rbEMbdh6sabX1UtPaWghnsssVbX5ubHHMCDtco1IC8S6CR65KVSp7u1Pws81pGZLH81XCkQ5g1nHH2F3VSgkjYK/8BUUmCUfQ4s= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 12:33:30 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Higher Order Conservation Laws of Motion. In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.20050222192018.006966a8 pop.freeserve.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 References: <2.2.32.20050222192018.006966a8 pop.freeserve.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j1MJXU1w020121 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57965 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: note though, that after velocity, they all become a measure of the rate of change. where is the original motion that is being constantly modified? there has to be an endpoint, yes no? or start point, as it were. On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 19:20:18 +0000, Grimer wrote: > In previous posts the idea of a series of increasing > orders of derivatives of length with respect to time > has been chewed over. > > It will be helpful to recapitulate the discussion by > using excepts from the Vortex archives. > > On the subject of imagining what these derivative mean > physically, we have. > > ======================================================== > ...Funny you should say that, Richard, because I've been > pondering how one could physically visualize high order > derivatives of distance with respect to time. > > dL/dT ......VELOCITY .......moving scenery > - no problem > > d2L/dT2 ....ACCELERATION ...being pushed back in ones > seat as the plane takes off > - no problem > > d3L/dt3 ....JERK............Mmm..more difficult - being > hit over the head with a > bottle perhaps? > > d4L/dT4 ....JOUNCE..........I have no feeling whatsoever > for this or high derivatives. > > But the failure to visualise these higher order derivative > is because I am thinking in terms of straight line motion. > If I think instead in terms of circular motion, or better > still, helical motions, then things become very much easier. > > If I allow myself to be pinned to the wall of a fairground > centrifuge then I can experience being "pushed back in my > seat on a continuous basis. By imposing a circular motion > on this circular motion to form an open vortex helix I can > visualize the next derivative, though I am well past the > age where I would want to experience it - and so on - and > so forth. > > ======================================================== > > On the topic of visualisation Keith Nagel wrote, > > ====================================================== > Also, you mentioned Jerk and Jounce ( sounds like > a b-list rap group ). I've also puzzled over the > physical meaning of these terms. It's rather like > trying to imagine higher dimensional shapes. One > dimension up is about all I can muster, which in > this case is Jerk. Standing on a carousel, with > the speed increasing and decreasing sinusoidally, > ought to do it. Perhaps a better term would be > "projectile vomiting" rather than jerk, huh??? (grin). > ====================================================== > > The discussion then wandered off into considering the > outcome of experiments with coil-coils and coil-coil.... > coils - and a host of other topics - as discussions on Vortex > frequently do - which is, of course, one of the delights > of the Group. One is not artificially constrained to narrowly > keep to the point. 8-) > > I can now see another way of visualizing the higher order > differentials but before doing that I would like to state > something I have realised in relation to the conservation > laws. > > We have:- > > ======================================================= > SYMBOL DERIVATIVE PROPERTY CONSERVED > > dL/dt velocity momentum yes > > d2L/dt3 acceleration energy yes > > d3L/dt3 jerk angular > acceleration yes > > d4L/dt4 jounce rate of change Err...? > of ang.acc. > > d5L/dt5 Err...? RoC of RoC Err...? > of ang.acc. > > ....... ..... ........... ....... > > dnL/dtn ... > > ======================================================= > > It has become increasingly clear to me that each derivative > is associated with a conservation law of its own. In short > there are an indefinitely large numbers of conservation > laws of motion. The reason we fail to see this is that we > are hag ridden by Cartesian Geometry and its unbounded x, > y and z dimensions. The coil-coil...coil visualization > discussed previously on Vortex avoided this trap because > it implicitly involved upper and lower bounds to the size > of the coils. > > It is interesting to note that the calculus also avoids > the Cartesian trap by not associating length with the > Cartesian space. The calculus allows us to have any > number of independent dimensions since no finite amount > of the (n+1)th derivative will give us a nth derivative. > > In the Cartesian case we can move from x (length) to > y (area) to z (volume)- but beyond that we are stuffed. > > In Keith's post he got as far as the third derivative > (angular acceleration) by "Standing on a carousel, with > the speed increasing and decreasing sinusoidally,..." > but could take it no further. > > I have now discovered how to generate physical > equivalents of d4L/dt4 and all higher derivative > motions with devices that anyone who is familiar > with the action of gyroscopes can readily visualise > and understand. > > Consider the Mechanism set out in > > http://tinyurl.com/4qc9g > > This is a gyro consisting of an outer ring of 8 gyros. > The eight outer ring gyros (2nd order gyros) are free > to rotate around their extended axles. These axles are > fixed rigidly to the central hub so that the rotating > 2nd order gyros are forcibly constrained to follow a > circular path when the central hub is rotated. > > Now I have chosen 8 gyros for pedagogic purposes since > it is easy to visualise the solid outer ring of a > classic gyro being replaced by multiple small gyros. > However, to take the physical example to d4L/dt4 and > higher order derivative motions it is easier to think > in terms of only a single pair of opposed gyros. > > A diagrammatic representation of a 7 order device > is shown in: > > http://tinyurl.com/6qus9 > > As you can see, it makes a rather nice > Iterative Hierarchical (IH) fractal pattern. > The different orders are indicated by different > colours. > > At this point it is worth repeating something from > a previous post. Cartesian geometry as taught at > school is a mathematical abstraction. It can't be > applied willy-nilly to the real world. In that > world real things have upper and lower bounds so one > must use an x, y, and z geometry which also has upper > and lower bounds. This means that we can nest as > many spaces as we like in the manner of Russian dolls > or Chinese boxes. > > In this case the upper and lower bounds of IH orders > are quite obvious if you think about it. A gyro of > the nth order is bounded in size by the gyros of the > (n+1)th and the (n-1)th orders. Likewise with every > other order. It's precisely the same situation as > with the "coiled-coiled-coiled-........coil" mentioned > in a previous post. Like the different order of gyros, > each different order of coils implicitly has an upper > and lower bound since a coil cannot be smaller than > twice the diameter of the wire, nor larger than the > next coil up the pecking order. > > Interestingly enough the IH fractal can be seen as > an attenuated version of the turbulent structure of > water. In the words of the poet, > > ==================================== > Big whorls have little whorls > That feed on their velocity, > And little whorls have lesser whorls > And so on to viscosity. > > - Lewis F. Richardson - > ==================================== > > And the power laws discovered for water vapour > are no doubt a reflection of their fractal > dynamic structure. > > Cheers > > Frank Grimer > > -- "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 22 11:44:12 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1MJho1w024222; Tue, 22 Feb 2005 11:43:54 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1MJhmn9024203; Tue, 22 Feb 2005 11:43:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 11:43:48 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Higher Order Conservation Laws of Motion. Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 14:44:43 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.20050222192018.006966a8 pop.freeserve.net> Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57966 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hey Frank, You're goading me into an actual thoughtful response, something I have precious little time for now. So I'll just say, Higher order derivatives ( such as Jerk and Jounce ) aren't terribly useful when applied to linear systems, which is why they receive such short attention in physics texts. However, they are _very_ meaningful when applied to non-linear systems. I'll leave it to the reader to do the leg work here, but a simple literature review will pull up all sorts of practical work based on d3l/dt3, just not called so. Those with ears to hear, will understand. Those without, look rather silly wearing glasses. K(oyote). -----Original Message----- From: Grimer [mailto:f.grimer grimer2.freeserve.co.uk] Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2005 2:20 PM To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: Higher Order Conservation Laws of Motion. In previous posts the idea of a series of increasing orders of derivatives of length with respect to time has been chewed over. It will be helpful to recapitulate the discussion by using excepts from the Vortex archives. On the subject of imagining what these derivative mean physically, we have. ======================================================== ...Funny you should say that, Richard, because I've been pondering how one could physically visualize high order derivatives of distance with respect to time. dL/dT ......VELOCITY .......moving scenery - no problem d2L/dT2 ....ACCELERATION ...being pushed back in ones seat as the plane takes off - no problem d3L/dt3 ....JERK............Mmm..more difficult - being hit over the head with a bottle perhaps? d4L/dT4 ....JOUNCE..........I have no feeling whatsoever for this or high derivatives. But the failure to visualise these higher order derivative is because I am thinking in terms of straight line motion. If I think instead in terms of circular motion, or better still, helical motions, then things become very much easier. If I allow myself to be pinned to the wall of a fairground centrifuge then I can experience being "pushed back in my seat on a continuous basis. By imposing a circular motion on this circular motion to form an open vortex helix I can visualize the next derivative, though I am well past the age where I would want to experience it - and so on - and so forth. ======================================================== On the topic of visualisation Keith Nagel wrote, ====================================================== Also, you mentioned Jerk and Jounce ( sounds like a b-list rap group ). I've also puzzled over the physical meaning of these terms. It's rather like trying to imagine higher dimensional shapes. One dimension up is about all I can muster, which in this case is Jerk. Standing on a carousel, with the speed increasing and decreasing sinusoidally, ought to do it. Perhaps a better term would be "projectile vomiting" rather than jerk, huh??? (grin). ====================================================== The discussion then wandered off into considering the outcome of experiments with coil-coils and coil-coil.... coils - and a host of other topics - as discussions on Vortex frequently do - which is, of course, one of the delights of the Group. One is not artificially constrained to narrowly keep to the point. 8-) I can now see another way of visualizing the higher order differentials but before doing that I would like to state something I have realised in relation to the conservation laws. We have:- ======================================================= SYMBOL DERIVATIVE PROPERTY CONSERVED dL/dt velocity momentum yes d2L/dt3 acceleration energy yes d3L/dt3 jerk angular acceleration yes d4L/dt4 jounce rate of change Err...? of ang.acc. d5L/dt5 Err...? RoC of RoC Err...? of ang.acc. ....... ..... ........... ....... dnL/dtn ... ======================================================= It has become increasingly clear to me that each derivative is associated with a conservation law of its own. In short there are an indefinitely large numbers of conservation laws of motion. The reason we fail to see this is that we are hag ridden by Cartesian Geometry and its unbounded x, y and z dimensions. The coil-coil...coil visualization discussed previously on Vortex avoided this trap because it implicitly involved upper and lower bounds to the size of the coils. It is interesting to note that the calculus also avoids the Cartesian trap by not associating length with the Cartesian space. The calculus allows us to have any number of independent dimensions since no finite amount of the (n+1)th derivative will give us a nth derivative. In the Cartesian case we can move from x (length) to y (area) to z (volume)- but beyond that we are stuffed. In Keith's post he got as far as the third derivative (angular acceleration) by "Standing on a carousel, with the speed increasing and decreasing sinusoidally,..." but could take it no further. I have now discovered how to generate physical equivalents of d4L/dt4 and all higher derivative motions with devices that anyone who is familiar with the action of gyroscopes can readily visualise and understand. Consider the Mechanism set out in http://tinyurl.com/4qc9g This is a gyro consisting of an outer ring of 8 gyros. The eight outer ring gyros (2nd order gyros) are free to rotate around their extended axles. These axles are fixed rigidly to the central hub so that the rotating 2nd order gyros are forcibly constrained to follow a circular path when the central hub is rotated. Now I have chosen 8 gyros for pedagogic purposes since it is easy to visualise the solid outer ring of a classic gyro being replaced by multiple small gyros. However, to take the physical example to d4L/dt4 and higher order derivative motions it is easier to think in terms of only a single pair of opposed gyros. A diagrammatic representation of a 7 order device is shown in: http://tinyurl.com/6qus9 As you can see, it makes a rather nice Iterative Hierarchical (IH) fractal pattern. The different orders are indicated by different colours. At this point it is worth repeating something from a previous post. Cartesian geometry as taught at school is a mathematical abstraction. It can't be applied willy-nilly to the real world. In that world real things have upper and lower bounds so one must use an x, y, and z geometry which also has upper and lower bounds. This means that we can nest as many spaces as we like in the manner of Russian dolls or Chinese boxes. In this case the upper and lower bounds of IH orders are quite obvious if you think about it. A gyro of the nth order is bounded in size by the gyros of the (n+1)th and the (n-1)th orders. Likewise with every other order. It's precisely the same situation as with the "coiled-coiled-coiled-........coil" mentioned in a previous post. Like the different order of gyros, each different order of coils implicitly has an upper and lower bound since a coil cannot be smaller than twice the diameter of the wire, nor larger than the next coil up the pecking order. Interestingly enough the IH fractal can be seen as an attenuated version of the turbulent structure of water. In the words of the poet, ==================================== Big whorls have little whorls That feed on their velocity, And little whorls have lesser whorls And so on to viscosity. - Lewis F. Richardson - ==================================== And the power laws discovered for water vapour are no doubt a reflection of their fractal dynamic structure. Cheers Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 22 12:13:23 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1MKD41w006585; Tue, 22 Feb 2005 12:13:04 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1MKD14U006543; Tue, 22 Feb 2005 12:13:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 12:13:01 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050222200919.006befac pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 20:09:19 +0000 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Good shot, Dr. Gonzo Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57967 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 08:10 am 22-02-05 -0800, Jones wrote: > Anyway, on the bottom of the Chaplin page re: ice-9 is this > amazing little tidbit: > > The hydrogen bonding is mostly proton-ordered as ice-three > undergoes a proton disorder-order transition to ice-nine > when rapidly cooled in liquid nitrogen (77 K, so avoiding > ice-two formation, see Phase Diagram); ice-three and > ice-nine having identical structures apart from the proton > ordering. For anyone, who like me, is a novice at all things nuclear... [or should I say nuculer a la Dubya ;-) ] and wants to know what "proton ordering" is, I have found a nice diagrammatic explantion at, http://tinyurl.com/4umoj Cheers Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 22 12:23:43 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1MKNP1w010350; Tue, 22 Feb 2005 12:23:25 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1MKNNpa010333; Tue, 22 Feb 2005 12:23:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 12:23:23 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002c01c5191c$52267d40$0100007f xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: Higher order conservation laws of motion Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 14:22:29 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0028_01C518E9.F0DD78E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-99.2 required=4.0 tests=HTML_30_40,HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57968 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0028_01C518E9.F0DD78E0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0029_01C518E9.F0DEFF80" ------=_NextPart_001_0029_01C518E9.F0DEFF80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankGrimer's interesting introduction of DesCarte's abstractions into = higher order fractals compounded with the analogy to derivatives make me = smile. I will pass on the post to some youngsters I enjoy conversation with = that continue to work on quadratic computing systems software to = address the very thoughts expressed by Grimer. From their conversations, = I gain they consider the quest in the realm of abstract derivatives. I saw a pic recently if an imploding bubble that showed the implosion = appearing as a vortex turning within the sphere as it collapsed. I = pictured the mathematics of the event as identical to Grimer's concept. It is interesting reading MW Youds comment regarding his observation = that the device he patented produced a resonance frequency creating an = implosion that was relating to SL and ChemL BUT was NOT the same. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0029_01C518E9.F0DEFF80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Grimer's interesting introduction of = DesCarte's=20 abstractions into higher order fractals compounded with the analogy to=20 derivatives make me smile.
 
I will pass on the post to some youngsters = I enjoy=20 conversation with that continue to work on  quadratic = computing=20 systems software to address the very thoughts expressed by Grimer. = From=20 their conversations, I gain they consider the quest in the realm of = abstract=20 derivatives.
 
I saw a pic recently if an imploding bubble = that showed=20 the implosion appearing as a vortex turning within the sphere as it = collapsed. I=20 pictured the mathematics of the event as identical to Grimer's=20 concept.
 
It is interesting reading MW Youds comment = regarding his=20 observation that the device he patented produced a resonance frequency = creating=20 an implosion that was relating to SL and ChemL  BUT was NOT the=20 same.
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_0029_01C518E9.F0DEFF80-- ------=_NextPart_000_0028_01C518E9.F0DD78E0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <002701c5191c$3b6ec120$0100007f xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0028_01C518E9.F0DD78E0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 22 12:41:51 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1MKfY1w017507; Tue, 22 Feb 2005 12:41:34 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1MKfTDg017446; Tue, 22 Feb 2005 12:41:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 12:41:29 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050222203736.006c46f4 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 20:37:36 +0000 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Higher Order Conservation Laws of Motion. Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57969 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:33 pm 22-02-05 -0700, you wrote: >note though, that after velocity, they all become a measure of the >rate of change. where is the original motion that is being constantly >modified? there has to be an endpoint, yes no? or start point, as it >were. > Err....? Sorry, I don't follow you. Isn't velocity a measure of a rate of change? Isn't velocity a measure of a rate of change of position? Or am I missing something. ;-) Does there have to be an endpoint or is it "elephants all the way down"? If I had to take a bet on it I would say that the Universe is unbounded in the small and in the large. Cheers Frank Grimer ========================================= It's the first effect of not believing in God that you lose your common sense. - Father Brown - ========================================= From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 22 12:49:03 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1MKmi1w020347; Tue, 22 Feb 2005 12:48:45 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1MKmg0Z020330; Tue, 22 Feb 2005 12:48:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 12:48:42 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=Sznmo/0a3y3VXrX4YbjlE3uxVSZAoTH1aRPy+g0waqNqtBPoIDgbsZ7l30c4HzpMxl++a1Q+ijVHYoe+9qxbGYXJtkiw9MGLWjGLygGf5uJARc9nQpKKcsHDxpStdIh+YIPWwKSXa1CSIHyv+tH09hYtyzY3sC18vKI2TRfAFYA= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 13:48:39 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Higher Order Conservation Laws of Motion. In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.20050222203736.006c46f4 pop.freeserve.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 References: <2.2.32.20050222203736.006c46f4 pop.freeserve.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j1MKmd1w020289 Resent-Message-ID: <6wVXd.A.j9E.qq5GCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57970 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ehh, your right. velocity is change in position. i was reffereing to position. my bad. but... to change someting, you have to have something to change. each line back describes how you are changing the next item down. if you have n number of derivatives, as n approaches infinity, shouldnt there at least be some kind of baseline approached? im probably not making sense, i only have first year calc, not enough to describe what im thinking. On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 20:37:36 +0000, Grimer wrote: > At 12:33 pm 22-02-05 -0700, you wrote: > > >note though, that after velocity, they all become a measure of the > >rate of change. where is the original motion that is being constantly > >modified? there has to be an endpoint, yes no? or start point, as it > >were. > > > > Err....? Sorry, I don't follow you. > Isn't velocity a measure of a rate of change? > Isn't velocity a measure of a rate of change of position? > > Or am I missing something. ;-) > > Does there have to be an endpoint or is it "elephants all > the way down"? If I had to take a bet on it I would say > that the Universe is unbounded in the small and in the large. > > Cheers > > Frank Grimer > > ========================================= > It's the first effect of not believing in > God that you lose your common sense. > > - Father Brown - > ========================================= > > -- "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 22 12:51:31 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1MKpL1w021662; Tue, 22 Feb 2005 12:51:21 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1MKpHAM021632; Tue, 22 Feb 2005 12:51:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 12:51:17 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: Message-ID: <045301c51920$329faba0$0958ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: Subject: The Silent Giant Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 15:50:38 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0450_01C518F6.40FEF7C0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: <2DtmVD.A.3RF.Et5GCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57972 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0450_01C518F6.40FEF7C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jed has just posted a message from Miles about a very chilly reception = at DoE for a grant proposal. Jones has been beating up on Mills for = supposedly dragging his feet in his development.=20 Nobody is talking about Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, with a = capitalization of over 200 billion yen and a chash flow of the order of = 2.3 trillion yen. Why is this interesting?=20 Iwamura works for Mitsubishi, and has produced some of the best, = cleanest evidence for LENR transmutation, confirmed in Japan and noted = in the financial press there. There it is, right in their own labs. If = any nation should have an interest in LENR, Japan should be high on the = list; first class in technology, totally dependent on outside sources = for oil. Mitsubishi has deep pockets to pursue commercial development.=20 Jed has excellent connections in Japan.=20 Why the thundering silence?=20 Mike Carrell ------=_NextPart_000_0450_01C518F6.40FEF7C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Jed has just posted a message from = Miles about a=20 very chilly reception at DoE for a grant proposal. Jones has been = beating up on=20 Mills for supposedly dragging his feet in his development.
 
Nobody is talking about Mitsubishi = Heavy=20 Industries, with a capitalization of over 200 billion yen and a chash = flow of=20 the order of 2.3 trillion yen. Why is this interesting?
 
Iwamura works for Mitsubishi, and has = produced some=20 of the best, cleanest evidence for LENR transmutation, confirmed in = Japan and=20 noted in the financial press there. There it is, right in their own = labs. If any=20 nation should have an interest in LENR, Japan should be high on the = list; first=20 class in technology, totally dependent on outside sources for oil. = Mitsubishi=20 has deep pockets to pursue commercial development.
 
Jed has excellent connections in Japan. =
 
Why the thundering silence? =
 
Mike Carrell
------=_NextPart_000_0450_01C518F6.40FEF7C0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 22 12:55:53 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1MKtW1w023288; Tue, 22 Feb 2005 12:55:34 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1MKtUuR023254; Tue, 22 Feb 2005 12:55:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 12:55:30 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 15:52:21 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: Higher Order Conservation Laws of Motion. In-reply-to: To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57973 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: What is thing called 'momentum'? (Rhetorical question.) The concept emerged in the first half the 17century. The mechanical philosophers (e.g. Descartes, Huygens, Newton) of this period gave us the practice of assigning to motion the quantity known as 'momentum'. It prove to be a boon for the artillerist. Before the momentum revolution, the concept of 'impetus' dominated the science of motion, but it was of limited value to the artillerist. I think there is a meaningful parallel between the pre-classical struggles to explain projectile motion and the state of modern physics. I also recommend reading the first chapter of the book _The Power of Images in Early Modern Science_ (2003). The essay, The Challenging Images of Artillery: Practical Knowledge at the Roots of the Scientific Revolution, includes some nice prints and drawings and it sheds light on those perplexing drawings of ballistic trajectories made before classical mechanics. Harry leaking pen at itsatrap gmail.com wrote: > note though, that after velocity, they all become a measure of the > rate of change. where is the original motion that is being constantly > modified? there has to be an endpoint, yes no? or start point, as it > were. > > > On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 19:20:18 +0000, Grimer > wrote: >> In previous posts the idea of a series of increasing >> orders of derivatives of length with respect to time >> has been chewed over. >> >> It will be helpful to recapitulate the discussion by >> using excepts from the Vortex archives. >> >> On the subject of imagining what these derivative mean >> physically, we have. >> >> ======================================================== >> ...Funny you should say that, Richard, because I've been >> pondering how one could physically visualize high order >> derivatives of distance with respect to time. >> >> dL/dT ......VELOCITY .......moving scenery >> - no problem >> >> d2L/dT2 ....ACCELERATION ...being pushed back in ones >> seat as the plane takes off >> - no problem >> >> d3L/dt3 ....JERK............Mmm..more difficult - being >> hit over the head with a >> bottle perhaps? >> >> d4L/dT4 ....JOUNCE..........I have no feeling whatsoever >> for this or high derivatives. >> >> But the failure to visualise these higher order derivative >> is because I am thinking in terms of straight line motion. >> If I think instead in terms of circular motion, or better >> still, helical motions, then things become very much easier. >> >> If I allow myself to be pinned to the wall of a fairground >> centrifuge then I can experience being "pushed back in my >> seat on a continuous basis. By imposing a circular motion >> on this circular motion to form an open vortex helix I can >> visualize the next derivative, though I am well past the >> age where I would want to experience it - and so on - and >> so forth. >> >> ======================================================== >> >> On the topic of visualisation Keith Nagel wrote, >> >> ====================================================== >> Also, you mentioned Jerk and Jounce ( sounds like >> a b-list rap group ). I've also puzzled over the >> physical meaning of these terms. It's rather like >> trying to imagine higher dimensional shapes. One >> dimension up is about all I can muster, which in >> this case is Jerk. Standing on a carousel, with >> the speed increasing and decreasing sinusoidally, >> ought to do it. Perhaps a better term would be >> "projectile vomiting" rather than jerk, huh??? (grin). >> ====================================================== >> >> The discussion then wandered off into considering the >> outcome of experiments with coil-coils and coil-coil.... >> coils - and a host of other topics - as discussions on Vortex >> frequently do - which is, of course, one of the delights >> of the Group. One is not artificially constrained to narrowly >> keep to the point. 8-) >> >> I can now see another way of visualizing the higher order >> differentials but before doing that I would like to state >> something I have realised in relation to the conservation >> laws. >> >> We have:- >> >> ======================================================= >> SYMBOL DERIVATIVE PROPERTY CONSERVED >> >> dL/dt velocity momentum yes >> >> d2L/dt3 acceleration energy yes >> >> d3L/dt3 jerk angular >> acceleration yes >> >> d4L/dt4 jounce rate of change Err...? >> of ang.acc. >> >> d5L/dt5 Err...? RoC of RoC Err...? >> of ang.acc. >> >> ....... ..... ........... ....... >> >> dnL/dtn ... >> >> ======================================================= >> >> It has become increasingly clear to me that each derivative >> is associated with a conservation law of its own. In short >> there are an indefinitely large numbers of conservation >> laws of motion. The reason we fail to see this is that we >> are hag ridden by Cartesian Geometry and its unbounded x, >> y and z dimensions. The coil-coil...coil visualization >> discussed previously on Vortex avoided this trap because >> it implicitly involved upper and lower bounds to the size >> of the coils. >> >> It is interesting to note that the calculus also avoids >> the Cartesian trap by not associating length with the >> Cartesian space. The calculus allows us to have any >> number of independent dimensions since no finite amount >> of the (n+1)th derivative will give us a nth derivative. >> >> In the Cartesian case we can move from x (length) to >> y (area) to z (volume)- but beyond that we are stuffed. >> >> In Keith's post he got as far as the third derivative >> (angular acceleration) by "Standing on a carousel, with >> the speed increasing and decreasing sinusoidally,..." >> but could take it no further. >> >> I have now discovered how to generate physical >> equivalents of d4L/dt4 and all higher derivative >> motions with devices that anyone who is familiar >> with the action of gyroscopes can readily visualise >> and understand. >> >> Consider the Mechanism set out in >> >> http://tinyurl.com/4qc9g >> >> This is a gyro consisting of an outer ring of 8 gyros. >> The eight outer ring gyros (2nd order gyros) are free >> to rotate around their extended axles. These axles are >> fixed rigidly to the central hub so that the rotating >> 2nd order gyros are forcibly constrained to follow a >> circular path when the central hub is rotated. >> >> Now I have chosen 8 gyros for pedagogic purposes since >> it is easy to visualise the solid outer ring of a >> classic gyro being replaced by multiple small gyros. >> However, to take the physical example to d4L/dt4 and >> higher order derivative motions it is easier to think >> in terms of only a single pair of opposed gyros. >> >> A diagrammatic representation of a 7 order device >> is shown in: >> >> http://tinyurl.com/6qus9 >> >> As you can see, it makes a rather nice >> Iterative Hierarchical (IH) fractal pattern. >> The different orders are indicated by different >> colours. >> >> At this point it is worth repeating something from >> a previous post. Cartesian geometry as taught at >> school is a mathematical abstraction. It can't be >> applied willy-nilly to the real world. In that >> world real things have upper and lower bounds so one >> must use an x, y, and z geometry which also has upper >> and lower bounds. This means that we can nest as >> many spaces as we like in the manner of Russian dolls >> or Chinese boxes. >> >> In this case the upper and lower bounds of IH orders >> are quite obvious if you think about it. A gyro of >> the nth order is bounded in size by the gyros of the >> (n+1)th and the (n-1)th orders. Likewise with every >> other order. It's precisely the same situation as >> with the "coiled-coiled-coiled-........coil" mentioned >> in a previous post. Like the different order of gyros, >> each different order of coils implicitly has an upper >> and lower bound since a coil cannot be smaller than >> twice the diameter of the wire, nor larger than the >> next coil up the pecking order. >> >> Interestingly enough the IH fractal can be seen as >> an attenuated version of the turbulent structure of >> water. In the words of the poet, >> >> ==================================== >> Big whorls have little whorls >> That feed on their velocity, >> And little whorls have lesser whorls >> And so on to viscosity. >> >> - Lewis F. Richardson - >> ==================================== >> >> And the power laws discovered for water vapour >> are no doubt a reflection of their fractal >> dynamic structure. >> >> Cheers >> >> Frank Grimer >> >> > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 22 13:02:44 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1ML2X1w025667; Tue, 22 Feb 2005 13:02:33 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1ML2T43025630; Tue, 22 Feb 2005 13:02:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 13:02:29 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050222205848.006c5f0c pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 20:58:48 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: ZPE-Pumped Cryogenic Mass Increase & Explosive Antimony Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57974 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:06 am 22-02-05 -0800, you wrote: >Fred, > >Once again we see evidence of extremely energetic mechanical >failure, which can be due to brittle failure, or to >phase-shift (allotrope) failure. This is totally >off-the-books of normal energy accounting because the energy >derives from ZPE. > >"By itself, when subjected to a sharp blow, an electric >spark, or when >heated to 110 - 120 deg C with a evolution of 19,600 >calories per gram". That's about 6 times the energy of >burning H2 plus O2 to a gram of water. :-)" Note that both >Antimony an Bismuth expand on solidifying." > >Yes. The similarity of exploding Sb with exploding ice is >striking. > >Using ice-9 instead of normal ice should far exceed this >figure, IF it can be kept in a micro-particulate form and >injected with perfect timing into a cylinder at the instant >of ignition of a lean gasoline (or other fossil fuel or >**especially** an H2 explosion). > >If even 5% by volume of ice-9 can be encapsulated in LN >(while bypassing the ice-2 formation stage); which then is >injected into a diesel at the high-end injection pressure >for a HEUI diesel (30,000 psi) >http://www.dieselpage.com/art1110ds.htm > >...one can theoretically raise the Carnot efficiency of the >fuel (excluding the cryo-component) to about 300% effective >Carnot, or fully 15 times above normal. In effect, this >should give one about 400 mpg equivalent mileage for a 200 >HP engine. But with that kind of efficiency - forget the >gasoline and go with on-board H2 !! and be totally >eco-friendly. > >Forget fuel cells. Forget hydrinos. Forget LENR. Lets >develop the hydrogen-fueled cryo-diesel... With this kind of >efficiency you can actually make your required H2 fuel >additive on-board, on-the-fly. Consequently on fill-up (at >home), one would take on only LN or CA (cryo-air) and water >only. Both the ice-9 and the H2 initiator would be >manufactured on-the-fly in the automobile. > >About 30% of you net horsepower would go to making the >necessary H2 via electrolysys, but the real power of the >engine would derive from the exploding ice-9 and the capture > of the 800:1 expansion ratio of the cryo-component. > >IOW with 200 HP available, you would devote 65 HP to onboard >electrolysis and 135 HP to powering the vehicle. Air >conditioning is a bonus. You can go full-blast AC with the >top-down, if you so desire, or even drive the Hummer to the >Sierra Club meeting with full impunity. Your only emmision >is cold air and water vapor. > >Now...did I get that right, Irving and Paul ? > >... or is it still too soon for this announcement, and will >you have to alert an agent, in order to send in the >trickster once again? > >Not to worry, hardly anyone with the necessary resources >listens to vortex anyway.... all sound and fury, signifying >nothing.... > >Jones I didn't know that bit about Antimony expanding on solidifying. It all sounds very fascinating and not implausible. Is it possible to draw a Carnot cycle type diagram showing the variables that are involved? Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 22 13:15:28 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1MLFC1w030240; Tue, 22 Feb 2005 13:15:12 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1MLF3nh030179; Tue, 22 Feb 2005 13:15:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 13:15:03 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <3rr3ln$ic0rjp mxip09a.cluster1.charter.net> X-Ironport-AV: i="3.90,108,1107752400"; d="scan'208"; a="616590969:sNHT19207624" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.12 (webedge20-101-197-20030912) From: To: Subject: Re: The Silent Giant Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 21:14:51 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57975 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > From: "Mike Carrell" > Subject: The Silent Giant > > Jed has just posted a message from Miles about a very > chilly reception at DoE for a grant proposal. Jones has > been beating up on Mills for supposedly dragging his > feet in his development. > > Nobody is talking about Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, with > a capitalization of over 200 billion yen and a chash flow > of the order of 2.3 trillion yen. Why is this > interesting? > > Iwamura works for Mitsubishi, and has produced some of > the best, cleanest evidence for LENR transmutation, > confirmed in Japan and noted in the financial press > there. There it is, right in their own labs. If any > nation should have an interest in LENR, Japan should be > high on the list; first class in technology, totally > dependent on outside sources for oil. Mitsubishi has deep > pockets to pursue commercial development. > > Jed has excellent connections in Japan. > > Why the thundering silence? > > Mike Carrell Follow the money! I fear the U.S. is already too late. Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 22 13:21:02 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1MLKl1w032190; Tue, 22 Feb 2005 13:20:47 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1MLKi0U032162; Tue, 22 Feb 2005 13:20:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 13:20:44 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 16:17:38 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: Higher Order Conservation Laws of Motion. In-reply-to: <2.2.32.20050222192018.006966a8 pop.freeserve.net> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: <32OfBC.A.e2H.sI6GCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57976 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: You might be interested in the theory of generalised functions. A generalised function (sometimes called a 'functional') has an unlimited number of derivatives unlike an ordinary function. Even step functions or impulse functions have derivatives at all points in the theory generalised functions. This was not considered possible until the first half of the 20century. But I am not a mathematician so please don't ask me to explain. Harry Grimer at f.grimer grimer2.freeserve.co.uk wrote: > In previous posts the idea of a series of increasing > orders of derivatives of length with respect to time > has been chewed over. > > It will be helpful to recapitulate the discussion by > using excepts from the Vortex archives. > > On the subject of imagining what these derivative mean > physically, we have. > > > ======================================================== > ...Funny you should say that, Richard, because I've been > pondering how one could physically visualize high order > derivatives of distance with respect to time. > > dL/dT ......VELOCITY .......moving scenery > - no problem > > d2L/dT2 ....ACCELERATION ...being pushed back in ones > seat as the plane takes off > - no problem > > d3L/dt3 ....JERK............Mmm..more difficult - being > hit over the head with a > bottle perhaps? > > d4L/dT4 ....JOUNCE..........I have no feeling whatsoever > for this or high derivatives. > > But the failure to visualise these higher order derivative > is because I am thinking in terms of straight line motion. > If I think instead in terms of circular motion, or better > still, helical motions, then things become very much easier. > > If I allow myself to be pinned to the wall of a fairground > centrifuge then I can experience being "pushed back in my > seat on a continuous basis. By imposing a circular motion > on this circular motion to form an open vortex helix I can > visualize the next derivative, though I am well past the > age where I would want to experience it - and so on - and > so forth. > > ======================================================== > > On the topic of visualisation Keith Nagel wrote, > > ====================================================== > Also, you mentioned Jerk and Jounce ( sounds like > a b-list rap group ). I've also puzzled over the > physical meaning of these terms. It's rather like > trying to imagine higher dimensional shapes. One > dimension up is about all I can muster, which in > this case is Jerk. Standing on a carousel, with > the speed increasing and decreasing sinusoidally, > ought to do it. Perhaps a better term would be > "projectile vomiting" rather than jerk, huh??? (grin). > ====================================================== From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 22 13:24:15 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1MLO41w000977; Tue, 22 Feb 2005 13:24:05 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1MLO0Qb000919; Tue, 22 Feb 2005 13:24:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 13:24:00 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050222162155.02b9f380 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 16:23:41 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Brief summary of Nikkei article about Iwamura Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_8081687==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57977 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --=====================_8081687==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed [I wrote this about a month ago at the request of an Italian researcher who wanted to know what the Nikkei article said.] The Nikkei article was published on December 27, 2004. The title was: "Results from miniaturization and micro-scale devices 2004 technical trends survey" Twenty notable discoveries were selected in each of three categories: 1. Advanced research 2. Practical applications, such as miniature hard disks and devices to diagnose viruses within 15 minutes 3. Socially notable, which seems to include new products people are talking about, such as cell phones. I do not know what it includes, because this list is not shown in the clippings I was sent. The winners were picked by a group of 12 experts, who examined 206 articles in the Japanese press and technical journals describing recent breakthroughs. There is very little text in the article about Iwamura's work. I think Takahashi already translated all of the relevant sentences: "This is a very innovative technology to make transmutation of elements with low costs, compared with existing methods as fission reactors and big accelerators, and when rare-noble elements will be produced like 'alchemy' it will be so beneficial to humanity." The article did not mention cold fusion. The first ten items in the "advanced research" list is eclectic: 1. Synthetic 'animal energy' systems. Synthetic ATP is being developed as a possible source of energy for nanoscale machines. 2. Instantaneous communications with photons. (I assume this refers to quantum cryptography, but it could be entangled photons. The text does not explain.) 3. Progress in transmutation technology. (Iwamura et. al.) 4. Photonic semiconductors. (Devices that manipulate photons directly, instead of electrons.) 5. A detector capable of identifying individual atoms. 6. Manmade synthesis of a virus similar to ebola. 7. A new kind of color emitting crystal. 8. A new breed of cow that is not susceptible to BSE. 9. A 1 cm glass tube electron accelerator, 10. Regenerating nerve cells in the brain with RNA treatments. Four or five other newspaper and magazine articles about Iwamura's work were published in 2004. Takahashi sent me some examples. Most of them did not mention that this is cold fusion. An article by Ikebe, H. "R&D Topics, 21st Century 'Alchemy,' Transmutation Observed at Mitsubishi . . ." Nikkei Sentan Gijutsu, p. 22, tried to show that Iwamura's transmutation claims are quite different from cold fusion. - Jed --=====================_8081687==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" [I wrote this about a month ago at the request of an Italian researcher who wanted to know what the Nikkei article said.]

The Nikkei article was published on December 27, 2004. The title was:

"Results from miniaturization and micro-scale devices
2004 technical trends survey"

Twenty notable discoveries were selected in each of three categories:

1. Advanced research
2. Practical applications, such as miniature hard disks and devices to diagnose viruses within 15 minutes
3. Socially notable, which seems to include new products people are talking about, such as cell phones. I do not know what it includes, because this list is not shown in the clippings I was sent.

The winners were picked by a group of 12 experts, who examined 206 articles in the Japanese press and technical journals describing recent breakthroughs.

There is very little text in the article about Iwamura's work. I think Takahashi already translated all of the relevant sentences: "This is a very innovative technology to make transmutation of elements with low costs, compared with existing methods as fission reactors and big accelerators, and when rare-noble elements will be produced like 'alchemy' it will be so beneficial to humanity." The article did not mention cold fusion.

The first ten items in the "advanced research" list is eclectic:

1. Synthetic 'animal energy' systems. Synthetic ATP is being developed as a possible source of energy for nanoscale machines.

2. Instantaneous communications with photons. (I assume this refers to quantum cryptography, but it could be entangled photons. The text does not explain.)

3. Progress in transmutation technology. (Iwamura et. al.)

4. Photonic semiconductors. (Devices that manipulate photons directly, instead of electrons.)

5. A detector capable of identifying individual atoms.

6. Manmade synthesis of a virus similar to ebola.

7. A new kind of color emitting crystal.

8. A new breed of cow that is not susceptible to BSE.

9. A 1 cm glass tube electron accelerator,

10. Regenerating nerve cells in the brain with RNA treatments.

Four or five other newspaper and magazine articles about Iwamura's work were published in 2004. Takahashi sent me some examples. Most of them did not mention that this is cold fusion. An article by Ikebe, H. “R&D Topics, 21st Century ‘Alchemy,’ Transmutation Observed at Mitsubishi . . .” Nikkei Sentan Gijutsu, p. 22, tried to show that Iwamura's transmutation claims are quite different from cold fusion.

- Jed
 --=====================_8081687==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 22 13:28:40 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1MLSQ1w002694; Tue, 22 Feb 2005 13:28:27 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1MLSOGt002667; Tue, 22 Feb 2005 13:28:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 13:28:24 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050222212444.006a1790 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 21:24:44 +0000 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Higher Order Conservation Laws of Motion. Resent-Message-ID: <0yTJ8D.A.hp.3P6GCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57978 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 01:48 pm 22-02-05 -0700, you wrote: > Ehh, you're right. Velocity is change in position. I was referring to > position. My bad. But... to change something, you have to have > something to change. Each line back describes how you are changing > the next item down. If you have n number of derivatives, as n > approaches infinity, shouldn't there at least be some kind of baseline > approached? I'm probably not making sense. I only have first year > calc., not enough to describe what I'm thinking. > You have my complete sympathy. When I was first introduced to calculus and the idea of dx -> 0, that was fine. However, then along comes d2x and I was trying furiously to imagine it fitting in the tiny space between dx and zero. And then when d3x came along things got awfully crowded in my imagination. The secret with maths is to recognise that... ================================================== "Mathematics is a game played according to certain simple rules with meaningless marks on paper." -- - David Hilbert - ================================================== ...then, lie back and think of England. ;-) Cheers, Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 22 13:48:21 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1MLlx1w011245; Tue, 22 Feb 2005 13:47:59 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1MLluVI011209; Tue, 22 Feb 2005 13:47:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 13:47:56 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <410-220052222214755710 ix.netcom.com> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: aki ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.1.47.0 (Windows) From: "Akira Kawasaki" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: The Silent Giant Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 13:47:55 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: c4cc7f5f697e8746f66dc3a06d5924d8bfd2cef88d20935d4889443de1e9223da8438e0f32a48e08350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 216.175.73.118 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57979 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII February 22, 2005 Vortex, The referenced "Silent Giant" by Mike is too busy currently propping up Mitsubishi Motors ever since it fell into disrepute because of hiding quality defects. After all, "Motors" was spun off from it originally. A rescue effort for a petroleum consuming product maker which produces revenue has priority over laboratory findings which has yet to be programmed for a scale-up development. -ak- ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
February 22, 2005
 
Vortex,
 
The referenced "Silent Giant" by Mike is too busy currently propping up Mitsubishi Motors ever since it fell into disrepute because of hiding quality defects. After all, "Motors" was spun off  from it originally. A rescue effort for a petroleum consuming product maker which produces revenue has priority over laboratory findings which has yet to be programmed for a scale-up development.
 
-ak- 
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 22 13:51:47 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1MLpG1w012727; Tue, 22 Feb 2005 13:51:16 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1MLpD34012698; Tue, 22 Feb 2005 13:51:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 13:51:13 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050222162520.02b091e0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 16:47:05 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: The Silent Giant In-Reply-To: <045301c51920$329faba0$0958ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> References: <045301c51920$329faba0$0958ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_9716125==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57980 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --=====================_9716125==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Mike Carrell wrote: >Iwamura works for Mitsubishi, and has produced some of the best, cleanest >evidence for LENR transmutation, confirmed in Japan and noted in the >financial press there. There it is, right in their own labs. If any nation >should have an interest in LENR, Japan should be high on the list; first >class in technology, totally dependent on outside sources for oil. >Mitsubishi has deep pockets to pursue commercial development. > >Jed has excellent connections in Japan. Well, not excellent. So-so in most cases. > >Why the thundering silence? That I can explain! It is simple. First of all, Japan is not unified in any sense. There is no agreed-upon view of cold fusion. The scientific establishment is as divided as it is in the US, and the vast majority of scientists think that cold fusion is outrageous fraud and garbage. That is what they say, anyway. There is terrific hostility toward the researchers. Most of them are hanging on by their fingernails. Mizuno will probably quit or be forced out this year or next. Iwamura was reassigned to other, unrelated jobs for a year. He has one or two managers who support his work. The others say he is a disgrace to the company and this nonsense should have been stopped years ago. Obviously if the managers who support him are forced out, it will be game over. Mitsubishi is in dire condition these days because of unrelated corporate scandals, and it would not surprise me to see their research department gutted. Last year, Iwamura's prospects improved tremendously, when two leading institutions (Tokyo U. and the Spring8 facility) agreed to cooperate with him, and help confirm his results. He is very confident and he has guts, so he insists everything will work out fine in the end, and the tide is turning, but I fear those two labs may botch the experiment. I do not think there are any other serious, properly funded CF research programs in Japan. If there are, I am sure the Japanese equivalents to Robert Park are doing their best to stamp them out. There is a little more academic freedom in Japan than in the US, and a little more leeway to research CF, but only a little. The message I posted just now, "Brief summary of Nikkei article about Iwamura" was something I wrote in response to one of the Italian researchers who wanted me to translate the newspaper articles. I did not think those articles were worth translating. Most of them were only a little more positive than, say, Scientific American. Two or three of them bent over backwards to try to show how Iwamura's results have nothing remotely to do with cold fusion -- which everyone knows was disproven. One of these articles had a table comparing and contrasting "A Iwamura's claim" and "B Cold fusion" something like this: Iwamura Cold fusion ------------- ------------------ Replicated Never replicated Serious research Discredited Transmutations Sporadic excess heat . . . In the interviews and comments Iwamura made in the press, I do not think he disputed the reporters' absurd attempts to make these fake distinctions, and he did not mention that he himself published papers showing excess heat, gamma rays and so on. Apparently, the reporter never bother to look at Iwamura's previously published papers (which are available at LENR-CANR.org by the way). Iwamura himself knows perfectly well that his results are cold fusion, but I do not think he goes out of his way to assert that with the public, or when he is speaking to know-nothing reporters. I cannot blame him! Steven Vincent Johnson wrote: > I fear the U.S. is already too late. I think that is ridiculous, and I would think so even if a hundred Japanese corporations were working night and day to make cold fusion. Technology travels rapidly and easily from one country to another. For one thing, all research is still at the basic physics level, and none of the techniques that have been discovered have any potential commercial use as far as I can tell. For another, once the basic principles of cold fusion are discovered, every country on earth will soon catch up. Even if Japanese corporations get the jump on others, their advantage will last no longer than the US head start in RAM memory chips or hard disks in the 1980s, or the US head start over Russia and France in nuclear weapons in 1945. - Jed --=====================_9716125==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mike Carrell wrote:

Iwamura works for Mitsubishi, and has produced some of the best, cleanest evidence for LENR transmutation, confirmed in Japan and noted in the financial press there. There it is, right in their own labs. If any nation should have an interest in LENR, Japan should be high on the list; first class in technology, totally dependent on outside sources for oil. Mitsubishi has deep pockets to pursue commercial development.
 
Jed has excellent connections in Japan.

Well, not excellent. So-so in most cases.


 
Why the thundering silence?

That I can explain! It is simple. First of all, Japan is not unified in any sense. There is no agreed-upon view of cold fusion. The scientific establishment is as divided as it is in the US, and the vast majority of scientists think that cold fusion is outrageous fraud and garbage. That is what they say, anyway. There is terrific hostility toward the researchers. Most of them are hanging on by their fingernails. Mizuno will probably quit or be forced out this year or next. Iwamura was reassigned to other, unrelated jobs for a year. He has one or two managers who support his work. The others say he is a disgrace to the company and this nonsense should have been stopped years ago. Obviously if the managers who support him are forced out, it will be game over. Mitsubishi is in dire condition these days because of unrelated corporate scandals, and it would not surprise me to see their research department gutted. Last year, Iwamura's prospects improved tremendously, when two leading institutions (Tokyo U. and the Spring8 facility) agreed to cooperate with him, and help confirm his results. He is very confident and he has guts, so he insists everything will work out fine in the end, and the tide is turning, but I fear those two labs may botch the experiment.

I do not think there are any other serious, properly funded CF research programs in Japan. If there are, I am sure the Japanese equivalents to Robert Park are doing their best to stamp them out. There is a little more academic freedom in Japan than in the US, and a little more leeway to research CF, but only a little.

The message I posted just now, "Brief summary of Nikkei article about Iwamura" was something I wrote in response to one of the Italian researchers who wanted me to translate the newspaper articles. I did not think those articles were worth translating. Most of them were only a little more positive than, say, Scientific American. Two or three of them bent over backwards to try to show how Iwamura's results have nothing remotely to do with cold fusion -- which everyone knows was disproven. One of these articles had a table comparing and contrasting "A Iwamura's claim" and "B Cold fusion" something like this:

Iwamura           &nb= sp;  Cold fusion
-------------           ------------------
Replicated            Never replicated
Serious research   Discredited
Transmutations     Sporadic excess heat
. . .

In the interviews and comments Iwamura made in the press, I do not think he disputed the reporters' absurd attempts to make these fake distinctions, and he did not mention that he himself published papers showing excess heat, gamma rays and so on. Apparently, the reporter never bother to look at Iwamura's previously published papers (which are available at LENR-CANR.org by the way). Iwamura himself knows perfectly well that his results are cold fusion, but I do not think he goes out of his way to assert that with the public, or when he is speaking to know-nothing reporters. I cannot blame him!


Steven Vincent Johnson wrote:

> I fear the U.S. is already too late.

I think that is ridiculous, and I would think so even if a hundred Japanese corporations were working night and day to make cold fusion. Technology travels rapidly and easily from one country to another. For one thing, all research is still at the basic physics level, and none of the techniques that have been discovered have any potential commercial use as far as I can tell. For another, once the basic principles of cold fusion are discovered, every country on earth will soon catch up. Even if Japanese corporations get the jump on others, their advantage will last no longer than the US head start in RAM memory chips or hard disks in the 1980s, or the US head start over Russia and France in nuclear weapons in 1945.

- Jed
 --=====================_9716125==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 22 14:19:30 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1MMJI1w004379; Tue, 22 Feb 2005 14:19:19 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1MMJBwn004334; Tue, 22 Feb 2005 14:19:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 14:19:11 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050222165505.02b13bb0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 17:18:57 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: The Silent Giant In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050222162520.02b091e0 pop.mindspring.com> References: <045301c51920$329faba0$0958ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> <6.2.0.14.2.20050222162520.02b091e0 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_11398953==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57981 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --=====================_11398953==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I wrote: >Last year, Iwamura's prospects improved tremendously, when two leading >institutions (Tokyo U. and the Spring8 facility) agreed to cooperate with >him, and help confirm his results. He is very confident and he has guts, >so he insists everything will work out fine in the end, and the tide is >turning, but I fear those two labs may botch the experiment. I should add that Iwamura has good reason to feel confident. He is no fool, and he must understand Japanese politics well or he would not have survived so long. Tokyo University has as much prestige as MIT and Harvard rolled together, and Iwamura himself as a graduate of Tokyo University. Like they say, you can always tell a Harvard man but you cannot tell him much. If Tokyo University does report positive results it will have a profound impact on the Japanese scientific establishment, and on public opinion. I am also sure that hostile opponents in Japan are doing their best to prevent that outcome, or at least to prevent publication of a positive results. They are only a little less powerful than their U.S. analogs such as Robert Park or Zimmerman. (I expect Park and Z. are in cahoots with them, and Park must know what is happening at Tokyo University, and what it will mean to his reputation if the experiment works and squeaks past peer-review.) Incidentally, based on my experiences dealing with people who oppose cold fusion, I do not think any of them -- Park, the Japanese, or the Sci. Am. editors -- has the slightest inkling he might be wrong. They sincerely believe that cold fusion is 100% unadulterated fraud and garbage. The Sci. Am. Editors sincerely believe those four statements they made in the sidebar in the March 2005 issue. It never occurred to them to check the literature, and if someone were to suggest that to them directly, they would respond: "this so-called 'literature' is nothing but blather from a seance of true believers. Claims made by these unknown 'researchers' McKubre or Iwamura -- people no one outside cold fusion has ever heard of -- mean nothing and prove nothing. Even if Iwamura's papers did pass peer-review, that only proves that the peer review process is not perfect and it does not always exclude nonsense." (At least, that's what they tell me.) They are as convinced of this as, for example, I am convinced that HIV causes AIDS, or that creationism is not science because it cannot be falsified or tested. They have no secret doubts. They are not being hypocritical or craven. I wish they were, because a person suffering from a guilty conscience might, someday, admit that he is wrong and make amends, but there is no cure for stupidity. - Jed --=====================_11398953==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I wrote:

Last year, Iwamura's prospect= s improved tremendously, when two leading institutions (Tokyo U. and the Spring8 facility) agreed to cooperate with him, and help confirm his results. He is very confident and he has guts, so he insists everything will work out fine in the end, and the tide is turning, but I fear those two labs may botch the experiment.

I should add that Iwamura has good reason to feel confident. He is no fool, and he must understand Japanese politics well or he would not have survived so long. Tokyo University has as much prestige as MIT and Harvard rolled together, and Iwamura himself as a graduate of Tokyo University. Like they say, you can always tell a Harvard man but you cannot tell him much. If Tokyo University does report positive results it will have a profound impact on the Japanese scientific establishment, and on public opinion. I am also sure that hostile opponents in Japan are doing their best to prevent that outcome, or at least to prevent publication of a positive results. They are only a little less powerful than their U.S. analogs such as Robert Park or Zimmerman. (I expect Park and Z. are in cahoots with them, and Park must know what is happening at Tokyo University, and what it will mean to his reputation if the experiment works and squeaks past peer-review.)

Incidentally, based on my experiences dealing with people who oppose cold fusion, I do not think any of them -- Park, the Japanese, or the Sci. Am. editors -- has the slightest inkling he might be wrong. They sincerely believe that cold fusion is 100% unadulterated fraud and garbage. The Sci. Am. Editors sincerely believe those four statements they made in the sidebar in the March 2005 issue. It never occurred to them to check the literature, and if someone were to suggest that to them directly, they would respond: "this so-called 'literature' is nothing but blather from a seance of true believers. Claims made by these unknown 'researchers' McKubre or Iwamura -- people no one outside cold fusion has ever heard of -- mean nothing and prove nothing. Even if Iwamura's papers did pass peer-review, that only proves that the peer review process is not perfect and it does not always exclude nonsense." (At least, that's what they tell me.) They are as convinced of this as, for example, I am convinced that HIV causes AIDS, or that creationism is not science because it cannot be falsified or tested. They have no secret doubts. They are not being hypocritical or craven. I wish they were, because a person suffering from a guilty conscience might, someday, admit that he is wrong and make amends, but there is no cure for stupidity.

- Jed
 --=====================_11398953==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 22 14:42:49 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1MMgb1w014139; Tue, 22 Feb 2005 14:42:38 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1MMgak3014116; Tue, 22 Feb 2005 14:42:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 14:42:36 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <011901c5192e$f2091a40$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <2.2.32.20050222192018.006966a8 pop.freeserve.net> Subject: Re: Higher Order Conservation Laws of Motion. Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 14:36:26 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57982 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frank, > But the failure to visualise these higher order derivative > is because I am thinking in terms of straight line motion. > If I think instead in terms of circular motion, or better > still, helical motions, then things become very much easier. Has it crossed your mind that 'jerk' and 'jounce'... well not so much 'jerk' but at least 'jounce' and above, may require (take place in) one of Savvy's higher-order time dimensions ? Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 22 15:04:37 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1MN4S1w025091; Tue, 22 Feb 2005 15:04:29 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1MN4PXx025065; Tue, 22 Feb 2005 15:04:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 15:04:25 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Incredible battery and TOE Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 10:04:10 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <007301c5184f$b65c1c20$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> <03e301c51867$93108a40$0958ccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> In-Reply-To: <03e301c51867$93108a40$0958ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j1MN4I1w025013 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57983 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Mike Carrell's message of Mon, 21 Feb 2005 17:36:21 -0500: Hi, [snip] >Robin wrote: > > >> In reply to Jones Beene's message of Mon, 21 Feb 2005 11:58:28 -0800: [snip] >> Personally, I doubt this will ever happen. The primary reason being that >you don't get 70 V until n=1/16, by which time IMO, you get fusion instead, >so there aren't going to be a whole lot of n=1/16 hydrinos lying around. >> Furthermore, the energy density is based on 70 V and the mass of the >hydrino, if I don't miss my guess, but this appears to ignore the mass of >the structural materials of the battery (but you may be able to make a >battery that is qua volume and mass largely fuel). Besides, with >disproportionation reactions probably taking place in any such battery, it's >likely to overheat, and eventually, possibly explode. There is also the >difficulty of working with hydrinos at multiple different levels of >shrinkage concurrently, and the consequences this would have for battery >voltage. > >MC: A few years back, I had a visit with Mills in his conference room to >introduce an overseas visitor who wanted to meet him. In the course of the >conversation he said he would be happy with a battery that is twice as good >as the popular lithium-ion cell. A long shot from the p=16 battery. I think >there have been a few chemical demosntrations along the way. But before any >of this can be remotely feasible there has to be a source of lots of pure >hydrinos. You get that when hundreds or thousands of BLP reactors are >running and hydrino hydrides are collected as byproducts. There is no point >in pounding the drum for the BLP battery when the necessary ingredients are >not available. > >There is no point on dwelling on P=16, P=2,3,4,5,6,7 will do just fine as >well, and these have been seen in the spectra of reactors. Mills has >reported that the reactor gas can be liquefied at liquid nitrogen >temperatures, so fractionl distillation is available as a means of >purification. There may be a family of batteries with different terminal >voltages. If any of this comes to pass, it could make an immense difference >in the performance of hybrid cars and lots of other systems as well. The problem lies not in the initial separation of hydrinos, but in the fact that disproportionation reactions will continue in the battery itself, leading (through entropy) to an inevitable mix of hydrino levels within each individual battery. [snip] JB: >> >At some point after 15 years of excuses, even his apologists are going to >have to drop the spiel that "these things always take longer to develop then >people realize," and ask themselves why, if there is any truth to it, that >the public should not demand government intervention, due to global warming >and the impending crisis of artic methane poisoning, etc and commandeer this >research (and pay Mills its worth, of course, after that has been >determined) and incorporate it into a new Manhattan project. > MC: >And just how will this hasten the day, when people like Zimmerman, Baron, >Pibel, and Rabitt all agree that the orbitsphere model is terminally faulty >[despite the computer animations now on the website]? I am an unabashed >"apologist" for Mills, having paid close attention to his work and noted >repreatedly that there is a big gap between his reports and viable >commercial systems. If you pay close attention you will see that Mills is >systematically building a fortress of patents and papers that will protect >his investors and partners when the rush begins. > >He could still fail. >> RvS: >> The public rarely demands action on matters so esoteric (to them). In fact >99% (at least) of the public, has never even heard of Mills. Most of those >that have, are sitting back and waiting for him to do the hard work, then >when he's got something that works well, someone will steal it. > MC: >So Robin wants the US governemnt to steal it? RvS: Not at all, and that isn't what I said. This technology is conservatively worth trillions. JB suggested that it be taken by the government, and Mills be paid what it's worth. I am simply pointing out that no one has ever paid trillions for a technology. When the amount gets that high, the technology is simply stolen, the theft swept under the rug, and obscured by legal niceties. The fact that this happens, doesn't mean that I support it. However it does mean that Mills should watch his back (this is a warning, not a threat). [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 22 15:09:57 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1MN9b1w028572; Tue, 22 Feb 2005 15:09:38 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1MN9a6B028546; Tue, 22 Feb 2005 15:09:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 15:09:36 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050222230555.0069901c pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 23:05:55 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Higher Order Conservation Laws of Motion. Resent-Message-ID: <_6iH_C.A.39G.vu7GCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57984 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 02:36 pm 22-02-05 -0800, Jones wrote: > Frank, > > >> But the failure to visualise these higher order derivative >> is because I am thinking in terms of straight line motion. >> If I think instead in terms of circular motion, or better >> still, helical motions, then things become very much >> easier. > > > Has it crossed your mind that 'jerk' and 'jounce'... well > not so much 'jerk' but at least 'jounce' and above, may > require (take place in) one of Savvy's higher-order time > dimensions ? > > Jones I'm afraid I could never understand what Savvy meant by his higher order time dimensions. As you know, my view of time has been expressed in that piece "The Nature of Time" in the Journal of Theoretics. However, if higher order time means a very short cycle time then certainly, "jounce" and above probably do take place in higher order time dimensions. Indeed, if you think about the 7 order gyro, then the highest orders are going to be capable of the highest rotation speed without flying apart so your suggestion is almost implicitly in the model. Cheers Frank From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 22 15:23:55 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1MNNV1w005878; Tue, 22 Feb 2005 15:23:32 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1MNNOqp005810; Tue, 22 Feb 2005 15:23:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 15:23:24 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: <96cfe227-6086-4a4e-8c8e-410d6f40bc84> Message-ID: <04e101c51935$67229d50$0958ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: Subject: Notes from Scientific American Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 18:22:35 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_04DE_01C5190B.7B2DF030" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57985 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_04DE_01C5190B.7B2DF030 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The current issue, in addition tothe piece about cold fusion, has some = other interesting items. A page is devoted to the comments of Michael Shermer, editor of The = Skeptic, who has this to say about "The Fossil Fallacy": "We know = evolution happens because innumerable bits of data from myriad fields of = science conjoin to paint a rich portrait of life's pilgramage." Nothing = about falsifiable theories, which is used to hack at "intelligent = design". A beautiful testament of faith, which with a few word = substitutions, would be an anthem in support of cold fusion.=20 In my view, it is demonstrable that natural selection can drive = adaptation, and in combinatorial chemistry, can drive the discovery of = new compounds, and works in many fields. But unless I am mistaken, there = has never been an experiment demonstrating the creation of a species by = natural selction. Various hypotheses are offered, but none rates the = status of a "theory". The other item of interest is the cover story, in which changes in = received solar energy, tied to the interplay of the Earth's precession = and orbital motion, strongly correlate with the methane and CO2 content = of the atmosphere over hundreds of thousands of years. Following that = cycle, we would now be in a strong cooling trend. However, the beginning = of agriculture some 5000 years ago has dumped methane from decaying = crops and reduced CO2 uptake by deforestation. The two combined have = offset the reduction in received solar intensity and kept the earth = warm. But we may have overdone it.... Mike Carrell ------=_NextPart_000_04DE_01C5190B.7B2DF030 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The current issue, in addition tothe = piece about=20 cold fusion, has some other interesting items.
 
A page is devoted to the comments of = Michael=20 Shermer, editor of The Skeptic, who has this to say about "The Fossil = Fallacy":=20 "We know evolution happens because innumerable bits of data from myriad = fields=20 of science conjoin to paint a rich portrait of life's pilgramage." = Nothing about=20 falsifiable theories, which is used to hack at "intelligent = design". A=20 beautiful testament of faith, which with a few word substitutions, would = be an=20 anthem in support of cold fusion.
 
In my view, it is demonstrable that = natural=20 selection can drive adaptation, and in combinatorial chemistry, can = drive the=20 discovery of new compounds, and works in many fields. But unless I am = mistaken,=20 there has never been an experiment demonstrating the creation of a = species by=20 natural selction. Various hypotheses are offered, but none rates the = status of a=20 "theory".
 
The other item of interest is the cover = story, in=20 which changes in received solar energy, tied to the interplay of the = Earth's=20 precession and orbital motion, strongly correlate with the methane and = CO2=20 content of the atmosphere over hundreds of thousands of years. Following = that=20 cycle, we would now be in a strong cooling trend. However, the beginning = of=20 agriculture some 5000 years ago has dumped methane from decaying crops = and=20 reduced CO2 uptake by deforestation. The two combined have offset the = reduction=20 in received solar intensity and kept the earth warm. But we may have = overdone=20 it....
 
Mike Carrell
------=_NextPart_000_04DE_01C5190B.7B2DF030-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 22 15:35:21 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1MNYs1w014352; Tue, 22 Feb 2005 15:34:54 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1MNYiUt014302; Tue, 22 Feb 2005 15:34:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 15:34:44 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050222182628.02b4f0f0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 18:34:20 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Incredible battery and TOE In-Reply-To: References: <007301c5184f$b65c1c20$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> <03e301c51867$93108a40$0958ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_15925875==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57986 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_15925875==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >Not at all, and that isn't what I said. This technology is conservatively >worth trillions. JB suggested that it be taken by the government, and >Mills be paid what it's worth. I am simply pointing out that no one has >ever paid trillions for a technology. When the amount gets that high, the >technology is simply stolen, the theft swept under the rug, and obscured >by legal niceties. I disagree. Transistors were ultimately worth trillions, but AT&T was fully paid during the time its patents were in effect. So were other patent holders such as Texas Instruments. The Mills invention may *eventually* be worth trillions in the aggregate, but probably not during the life of the patent, even if it starts with a bang. As things are now working out, it seems likely to me the patents will expire before any technology is developed or sold, and Mills will have nothing. Airplanes are another major technology that was patented. The first patent held up, and so did subsequent patents filed by others. In 1917, to promote wartime production, the government stepped in and forced all patent holders to accept a standard fee, so that any manufacturer could get free access to the technology. I imagine something similar would happen with the Mills device. If it comes to a free-market free-for-all without patents, my guess is that Mills would not stand a chance. He might as well give the stuff away and hope to win a Nobel Prize, because he will not earn a dime any other way. - Jed --=====================_15925875==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

Not at all, and that isn't what I said. This technology is conservatively worth trillions. JB suggested that it be taken by the government, and Mills be paid what it's worth. I am simply pointing out that no one has ever paid trillions for a technology. When the amount gets that high, the technology is simply stolen, the theft swept under the rug, and obscured by legal niceties.

I disagree. Transistors were ultimately worth trillions, but AT&T was fully paid during the time its patents were in effect. So were other patent holders such as Texas Instruments. The Mills invention may *eventually* be worth trillions in the aggregate, but probably not during the life of the patent, even if it starts with a bang. As things are now working out, it seems likely to me the patents will expire before any technology is developed or sold, and Mills will have nothing.

Airplanes are another major technology that was patented. The first patent held up, and so did subsequent patents filed by others. In 1917, to promote wartime production, the government stepped in and forced all patent holders to accept a standard fee, so that any manufacturer could get free access to the technology. I imagine something similar would happen with the Mills device.

If it comes to a free-market free-for-all without patents, my guess is that Mills would not stand a chance. He might as well give the stuff away and hope to win a Nobel Prize, because he will not earn a dime any other way.

- Jed
--=====================_15925875==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 22 16:49:48 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1N0nV1W030439; Tue, 22 Feb 2005 16:49:32 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1N0nJFf030364; Tue, 22 Feb 2005 16:49:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 16:49:19 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=MhR29iraXUFkWEfYtgT2iJEH0cAfdn9GrbGiHKXD7Ji/1EXjgvQux7c84P91+EK0sYVZY3K9tndigHyzTej5+mAe81J1wlgtXzFbKrDRm49icGrcinQyqohojK529cpVreGi1PGLOB6vTsYrZdGXgmpvhvwRzFgkn6INIQpl6Ag= ; Message-ID: <20050223004909.51482.qmail web51702.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 16:49:09 -0800 (PST) From: Terry Blanton Subject: Re: Higher Order Conservation Laws of Motion. To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <011901c5192e$f2091a40$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57987 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- Jones Beene wrote: > Has it crossed your mind that 'jerk' and 'jounce'... > well > not so much 'jerk' but at least 'jounce' and above, > may > require (take place in) one of Savvy's higher-order > time > dimensions ? Like a jaunte? __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 22 17:09:58 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1N19h1W010298; Tue, 22 Feb 2005 17:09:43 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1N19eaE010270; Tue, 22 Feb 2005 17:09:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 17:09:40 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <01c401c51943$7bc776a0$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <20050223004909.51482.qmail web51702.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Higher Order Conservation Laws of Motion. Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 17:03:27 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57988 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terry Blanton" > Like a jaunte? Are you trying to get the Bester me? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 22 17:10:54 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1N1AR1W010665; Tue, 22 Feb 2005 17:10:28 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1N1ANg9010635; Tue, 22 Feb 2005 17:10:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 17:10:23 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: <6bb2839a-05e9-45e7-adeb-1391908a6acd> Message-ID: <001801c51944$6e6265a0$9579ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <007301c5184f$b65c1c20$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> <03e301c51867$93108a40$0958ccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <6.2.0.14.2.20050222182628.02b4f0f0@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Incredible battery and TOE Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 20:09:53 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57989 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed wrote: Robin van Spaandonk wrote: RvS: Not at all, and that isn't what I said. This technology is conservatively worth trillions. JB suggested that it be taken by the government, and Mills be paid what it's worth. I am simply pointing out that no one has ever paid trillions for a technology. When the amount gets that high, the technology is simply stolen, the theft swept under the rug, and obscured by legal niceties. MC: Such can happen, which is why I see the current activity on the website as building a patent base that can be defended, which is what a license laboratory must do. Mills' business model is a license laboratory. Years ago in some email to Mills, I pointed out that the patents woudl expire but by then he should have a good technology lead. Mills replied to the effect that I was perceptive. JR: I disagree. Transistors were ultimately worth trillions, but AT&T was fully paid during the time its patents were in effect. So were other patent holders such as Texas Instruments. The Mills invention may *eventually* be worth trillions in the aggregate, but probably not during the life of the patent, even if it starts with a bang. As things are now working out, it seems likely to me the patents will expire before any technology is developed or sold, and Mills will have nothing. MC: Trillions may be the aggregate worth, of which Mills and investors will see only a fraction. Still, Mills may be richer than Gates, much less than a trillion. Jed is terminally pessimistic about Mills' business prospects, since Mills is not following Jed's favorite buisness model, but neither is anyone in the CF community. One might term the present period as a pregnancy of unknown duration. The child may be stillborn or a wonderkind. We don't know yet. Airplanes are another major technology that was patented. The first patent held up, and so did subsequent patents filed by others. In 1917, to promote wartime production, the government stepped in and forced all patent holders to accept a standard fee, so that any manufacturer could get free access to the technology. I imagine something similar would happen with the Mills device. If it comes to a free-market free-for-all without patents, my guess is that Mills would not stand a chance. He might as well give the stuff away and hope to win a Nobel Prize, because he will not earn a dime any other way. MC: Which is why Mills is working to secure a patent position. He tried first -- and may yet succeed -- in getting fundamental patents that will cover all possible applications. Last year BLP submitted a massive *applicaion* patent application which did not rely at all on the orbitsphere or dubious physics. It described physical structures, selection criteria for catalysts, etc. in every variation in all the papaers Mills has published. There is no reason it should not be granted, along with recipies for paint and patent medicine. It has the disadvantage of limitation, such that if someone can build a device that works without infringing on the claims, he is home free -- after a court fight. MC: To fulfill the dream of Jed and Jones you have to replace the power plants of utilities and vehicles and buildings throughout the world. This will not be done by amateurs, particularly utilities, which are responsible for the life of all their customers. They will not give up tested means for untested. A zillion microturbines might eat them away as PCs ate at IBM's entrails, but those have to be reliable also. Replacement will happen, by well organized and efficient manufacturers. They might come from surprising roots. Texas Instruments, for example, origianlly made its money in oil well prospecting and jumped into semiconductors when they emerged. MC: The task is larger than any single or small group of companies, as was the electrification of the world, still incomplete. BLP will have its place in the sun, but eventually the patents will run out and many entrepreneurs will take over. That's fine. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 22 12:50:56 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1MKoc1w021208; Tue, 22 Feb 2005 12:50:38 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1MKoWgo021151; Tue, 22 Feb 2005 12:50:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 12:50:32 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <07d801c51920$1e844540$4b01a8c0 colin5fc9e2583> Reply-To: "Colin Quinney" From: "Colin Quinney" To: References: <2.2.32.20050222203736.006c46f4 pop.freeserve.net> Subject: Re: Higher Order Conservation Laws of Motion. Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 15:50:19 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2527 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2527 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57971 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com X-Suspected-Spam: billb friends5 Status: O X-Status: Subquantum Frank? That sounds a bit like La Violette or Robert Neil Boyd sub quantum physics. (Not that there's anything wrong with that ;) Colin ----- Original Message ----- From: "Grimer" To: Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2005 3:37 PM Subject: Re: Higher Order Conservation Laws of Motion. > At 12:33 pm 22-02-05 -0700, you wrote: > >>note though, that after velocity, they all become a measure of the >>rate of change. where is the original motion that is being constantly >>modified? there has to be an endpoint, yes no? or start point, as it >>were. >> > > Err....? Sorry, I don't follow you. > Isn't velocity a measure of a rate of change? > Isn't velocity a measure of a rate of change of position? > > Or am I missing something. ;-) > > Does there have to be an endpoint or is it "elephants all > the way down"? If I had to take a bet on it I would say > that the Universe is unbounded in the small and in the large. > > Cheers > > Frank Grimer > > ========================================= > It's the first effect of not believing in > God that you lose your common sense. > > - Father Brown - > ========================================= > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 22 18:41:19 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1N2f0Xq028077; Tue, 22 Feb 2005 18:41:00 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1N2ewdt028060; Tue, 22 Feb 2005 18:40:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 18:40:58 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <004401c51951$17371b60$d9037841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: Russian website Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 20:40:51 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0040_01C5191E.CC227250" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-99.8 required=4.0 tests=HTML_50_60,HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57990 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0040_01C5191E.CC227250 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0041_01C5191E.CC227250" ------=_NextPart_001_0041_01C5191E.CC227250 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankJones, Give this one a try, its the main page Richard http://evg-ars.narod.ru/shauberg1.htm ------=_NextPart_001_0041_01C5191E.CC227250 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Jones,
Give this one  a try, its the main page
 
Richard

http://evg-ars.narod.ru/sh= auberg1.htm

------=_NextPart_001_0041_01C5191E.CC227250-- ------=_NextPart_000_0040_01C5191E.CC227250 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <003f01c51951$16b0ad50$d9037841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0040_01C5191E.CC227250-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 22 23:58:19 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1N7w5i3002285; Tue, 22 Feb 2005 23:58:06 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1N7w3F9002266; Tue, 22 Feb 2005 23:58:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 23:58:03 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <04e101c51935$67229d50$0958ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> References: <04e101c51935$67229d50$0958ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 01:58:03 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: Notes from Scientific American Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="============_-1102976994==_ma============" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57991 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --============_-1102976994==_ma============ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" > > A page is devoted to the comments of Michael Shermer, editor of The Skeptic, who has this to say I just listened to Shermer being interviewed on America Overnight. There's no faith like that of a convert. In his case he converted from Christianity to atheism. He attacked everything from Bible Code to psycics and cold fusion. > >In my view, it is demonstrable that natural selection can drive >adaptation, and in combinatorial There is no evidence of one species changing into another such that they cannot cross breed with the former. > Interviewing Shermer on evolution and intelligent design, without having someone taking the opposite side, is like interviewing Parksie on energy medicine and LENR. This is just what I'd expect from the magazine that was denying heavier than air machine flight in 1910! --============_-1102976994==_ma============ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Re: Notes from Scientific American

 
A page is devoted to the comments of Michael Shermer, editor of The Skeptic, who has this to say

I just listened to Shermer being interviewed on America Overnight. There's no faith like that of a convert. In his case he converted from Christianity to atheism. He attacked everything from Bible Code to psycics and cold fusion.

 
In my view, it is demonstrable that natural selection can drive adaptation, and in combinatorial

There is no evidence of one species changing into another such that they cannot cross breed with the former.



Interviewing Shermer on evolution and intelligent design, without having someone taking the opposite side, is like interviewing Parksie on energy medicine and LENR. This is just what I'd expect from the magazine that was denying heavier than air machine flight in 1910!
--============_-1102976994==_ma============-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 23 00:02:42 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1N82Si3003995; Wed, 23 Feb 2005 00:02:28 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1N82OJX003953; Wed, 23 Feb 2005 00:02:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 00:02:24 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050222140432.02b83970 pop.mindspring.com> References: <007301c5184f$b65c1c20$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> <6.2.0.14.2.20050222140432.02b83970 pop.mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 02:02:32 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: Incredible battery and TOE Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: <_teKcD.A.r9.PiDHCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57992 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >thomas malloy wrote: > >>All Randall would have to do is demonstrate a working model of any >>of the above, and I'll hold my piece. >> > >Peace! I do not even what to think about what "holding your piece" might mean. > >- Jed Holding a gun, er I mean a weapon, I would expect. Thanks for the correction. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 23 00:03:28 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1N83Di3004339; Wed, 23 Feb 2005 00:03:13 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1N83Bxo004314; Wed, 23 Feb 2005 00:03:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 00:03:11 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 02:03:22 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Practical application for BLP technology Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: <71riS.A.WDB._iDHCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57993 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I contacted Randall about a license. He forwarded my email to one of his subordinates. My original intention was energy production. But I considering what Mike Carrell had said about it's commercialization being 20 years in the future. I suggested using hydrinos to harden the interior of cannon barrels. The is only one customer for this service, but if you've got what they want, they will pay any price you want. I find it odd that BLP ignored me. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 23 06:30:13 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1NETki3017824; Wed, 23 Feb 2005 06:29:46 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1NETYpB017641; Wed, 23 Feb 2005 06:29:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 06:29:34 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050223090350.02b35900 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 09:25:01 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Notes from Scientific American In-Reply-To: References: <04e101c51935$67229d50$0958ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57994 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: thomas malloy wrote: >There is no evidence of one species changing into another such that they >cannot cross breed with the former. Oh come now. Millions of species have done that, probably including some domesticated species. There have been none within recorded history, but the time scale is too short. Along the same lines, Mike Carrell wrote: "But unless I am mistaken, there has never been an experiment demonstrating the creation of a species by natural selection." At this level, biology is an observational science. In other words, this demand is like: asking an astronomer to show hydrogen condense to form a star in real-time; asking Jared Diamond to show an society collapse and go extinct; asking a linguist to show a modern language diverge into several other languages, the way Latin changed into French, Italian and Spanish. We know that societies do collapse and languages do evolve and diverge because of the evidence these events leave behind, not because anyone has observed these things happen in real time. Biologists do not have the ability or the time to impose natural (or unnatural) selection for thousands -- or millions -- of years. >This is just what I'd expect from the magazine that was denying heavier >than air machine flight in 1910! To be fair, the Scientific American admitted that flight was real starting in December 1906, with an editorial that said: "In all the history of invention, there is probably no parallel to the unostentatious manner in which the Wright brothers of Dayton, Ohio, ushered into the world their epoch-making invention of the first successful airplane flying-machine." (Kelly, p. 146) The Sci. Am. did, however, continue to denigrate the Wrights from time to time, most recently in December 2003. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 23 07:13:18 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1NFCii3003914; Wed, 23 Feb 2005 07:12:45 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1NFCehp003861; Wed, 23 Feb 2005 07:12:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 07:12:40 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <421C9D76.7050601 pobox.com> Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 10:12:54 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.5) Gecko/20050105 Debian/1.7.5-1 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Notes from Scientific American References: <04e101c51935$67229d50$0958ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> <6.2.0.14.2.20050223090350.02b35900@pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050223090350.02b35900 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57995 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > thomas malloy wrote: > >> There is no evidence of one species changing into another such that >> they cannot cross breed with the former. > > > Oh come now. Millions of species have done that, probably including > some domesticated species. There have been none within recorded > history, but the time scale is too short. Check out studies of island ecologies. Evolution can proceed quite rapidly in an isolated community. I haven't got references at my fingertips and haven't got the time to go digging but I'm pretty sure I've read of longitudinal studies of islands which showed substantial changes in a quite short period (less than a century, IIRC). Not sure if the island residents diverged so far that they couldn't cross-breed, tho. Dodos are, of course, the archetypical "island species". Anybody recall what the fossil record indicates about the date at which they first appeared? Of course, Thomas may claim they could still cross-breed with pigeons, and that would be hard to disprove (since there aren't any anymore), though the size difference, if nothing else, would have made it quite awkward. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 23 07:40:12 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1NFdwi3021762; Wed, 23 Feb 2005 07:39:58 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1NFdp8C021702; Wed, 23 Feb 2005 07:39:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 07:39:51 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050223101459.02a0e908 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 10:39:31 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Notes from Scientific American In-Reply-To: <421C9D76.7050601 pobox.com> References: <04e101c51935$67229d50$0958ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> <6.2.0.14.2.20050223090350.02b35900 pop.mindspring.com> <421C9D76.7050601 pobox.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_6143468==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57996 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --=====================_6143468==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: >Check out studies of island ecologies. Evolution can proceed quite >rapidly in an isolated community. Yes, but it is difficult or perhaps impossible for a biologist to "simulate" that kind of selection process with an artificial environment, or to monitor events on a real island. Perhaps if biology continues for the next few thousand years we will observe species diverge in places like the Galapagos Islands. To produce this artificially, it is not enough to simply breed animals such as show dogs. You would have to provide a full range of predators, diseases, food supplies, and selective advantages which are often very difficult to understand -- and I think impossible to control for. It is often astounding what turns out to be an advantage. As the neo-Lamarkians point out, cutting off mouse tails for generations proves nothing -- there is no selective advantage to having no tail. > I haven't got references at my fingertips and haven't got the time to > go digging but I'm pretty sure I've read of longitudinal studies of > islands which showed substantial changes in a quite short period (less > than a century, IIRC). Not sure if the island residents diverged so far > that they couldn't cross-breed, tho. The "crossbreed" definition of species is a can of worms, that is growing wormier with each passing year. It turns out all kinds of different species can crossbreed, albeit usually with sterile offspring. Zebras can breed with horses, and donkeys with horses to produce mules. Mules are usually sterile, but not always, it turns out. I do not think anyone would assert that donkeys and horses are the same species. As I see it, the fact that such widely divergent species can crossbreed is good evidence that evolution did occur. It turns out species have not really diverged very far after all, and the distinction between species is somewhat artificial. (I mean it is man-made.) As far as nature is concerned zebras and horses are still pretty much the same animal. Also, by the way, the distinction between sexes is somewhat artificial. People are very hung about this distinction and about sex roles, and most people are horrified when confronted with hermaphrodites and other sexually ambiguous people, but in fact there are, as I recall, six classes of human hermaphrodites and they are surprisingly common. Nowadays surgery is usually performed to hide the results, but nothing can hide the genes -- or prevent their expression from time to time. Nature never completely finished the job of separating male and female. - Jed --=====================_6143468==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Stephen A. Lawrence wrote:

Check out studies of island ecologies.   Evolution can proceed quite rapidly in an isolated community.

Yes, but it is difficult or perhaps impossible for a biologist to "simulate" that kind of selection process with an artificial environment, or to monitor events on a real island. Perhaps if biology continues for the next few thousand years we will observe species diverge in places like the Galapagos Islands. To produce this artificially, it is not enough to simply breed animals such as show dogs. You would have to provide a full range of predators, diseases, food supplies, and selective advantages which are often very difficult to understand -- and I think impossible to control for. It is often astounding what turns out to be an advantage. As the neo-Lamarkians point out, cutting off mouse tails for generations proves nothing -- there is no selective advantage to having no tail.


  I haven't got references at my fingertips and haven't got the time to go digging but I'm pretty sure I've read of longitudinal studies of islands which showed substantial changes in a quite short period (less than a century, IIRC).  Not sure if the island residents diverged so far that they couldn't cross-breed, tho.

The "crossbreed" definition of species is a can of worms, that is growing wormier with each passing year. It turns out all kinds of different species can crossbreed, albeit usually with sterile offspring. Zebras can breed with horses, and donkeys with horses to produce mules. Mules are usually sterile, but not always, it turns out. I do not think anyone would assert that donkeys and horses are the same species.

As I see it, the fact that such widely divergent species can crossbreed is good evidence that evolution did occur. It turns out species have not really diverged very far after all, and the distinction between species is somewhat artificial. (I mean it is man-made.) As far as nature is concerned zebras and horses are still pretty much the same animal.

Also, by the way, the distinction between sexes is somewhat artificial. People are very hung about this distinction and about sex roles, and most people are horrified when confronted with hermaphrodites and other sexually ambiguous people, but in fact there are, as I recall,  six classes of human hermaphrodites and they are surprisingly common. Nowadays surgery is usually performed to hide the results, but nothing can hide the genes -- or prevent their expression from time to time. Nature never completely finished the job of separating male and female.

- Jed
--=====================_6143468==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 23 07:47:39 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1NFlQi3026968; Wed, 23 Feb 2005 07:47:26 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1NFlLgR026922; Wed, 23 Feb 2005 07:47:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 07:47:21 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050223090350.02b35900 pop.mindspring.com> References: <04e101c51935$67229d50$0958ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> <6.2.0.14.2.20050223090350.02b35900 pop.mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 09:47:23 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: Notes from Scientific American Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: <1I-77C.A.kkG.IWKHCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57997 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >thomas malloy wrote: > >>There is no evidence of one species changing into another such that >>they cannot cross breed with the former. > >Oh come now. Millions of species have done that, probably including >some domesticated species. There have been none within recorded >history, but the time scale is too short. Along the same lines, >Mike Carrell wrote: > >"But unless I am mistaken, there has never been an experiment >demonstrating the creation of a species by natural selection." > >At this level, biology is an observational science. In other words, >this demand is like: You can't prove a negative, OTOH, look what happens when you cross a horse and a donkey. > >>This is just what I'd expect from the magazine that was denying >>heavier than air machine flight in 1910! > >To be fair, the Scientific American admitted that flight was real >starting in December 1906, with an editorial that said: "In all the >history of invention, there is probably no It only took them three years to acknowledge the Wright Brothers, OTOH, an airplane is somewhat larger than an atom. >denigrate the Wrights from time to time, most recently in December 2003. > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 23 08:03:55 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1NG3di3001754; Wed, 23 Feb 2005 08:03:39 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1NG3aM5001720; Wed, 23 Feb 2005 08:03:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 08:03:36 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050223104958.02b1a3d8 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 11:03:09 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Notes from Scientific American In-Reply-To: References: <04e101c51935$67229d50$0958ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> <6.2.0.14.2.20050223090350.02b35900 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_7559078==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: <1pSFwB.A.na.WlKHCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57998 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --=====================_7559078==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed thomas malloy wrote: >>At this level, biology is an observational science. In other words, this >>demand is like: > >You can't prove a negative, OTOH, look what happens when you cross a horse >and a donkey. As I pointed out in the previous message, what happens -- it turns out -- is unclear. For a long time it was thought that mules are always sterile, but it turns out that given half a chance some of them aren't. Perhaps under the right circumstances in nature, a race of mules would turn out to be viable. Would that prove that horses and donkeys are actually the same species? As far as I am concerned, that would prove the concept of "species" is largely an artifact of the human imagination. It is a distinction that nature itself does not make with as much clarity as we do. It is kind of like the difference between a sea and an ocean, or an island and a continent. (Which is Australia? I can never remember.) It may also turn out that cold and hot fusion are fundamentally the same process. They produce heat and helium in roughly similar proportions. As Chris Tinsley used to say, burning sugar and metabolism look very different but fundamentally they are the same. People love to make distinctions that nature does not make. - Jed --=====================_7559078==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" thomas malloy wrote:

At this level, biology is an observational science. In other words, this demand is like:

You can't prove a negative, OTOH, look what happens when you cross a horse and a donkey.

As I pointed out in the previous message, what happens -- it turns out -- is unclear. For a long time it was thought that mules are always sterile, but it turns out that given half a chance some of them aren't. Perhaps under the right circumstances in nature, a race of mules would turn out to be viable. Would that prove that horses and donkeys are actually the same species? As far as I am concerned, that would prove the concept of "species" is largely an artifact of the human imagination. It is a distinction that nature itself does not make with as much clarity as we do.

It is kind of like the difference between a sea and an ocean, or an island and a continent. (Which is Australia? I can never remember.)

It may also turn out that cold and hot fusion are fundamentally the same process. They produce heat and helium in roughly similar proportions. As Chris Tinsley used to say, burning sugar and metabolism look very different but fundamentally they are the same. People love to make distinctions that nature does not make.

- Jed
--=====================_7559078==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 23 08:20:57 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1NGKLi3009056; Wed, 23 Feb 2005 08:20:21 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1NGKGKj009011; Wed, 23 Feb 2005 08:20:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 08:20:16 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <003201c519c2$af87f580$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <2.2.32.20050222200919.006befac pop.freeserve.net> Subject: Proton ordering and extropy Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 08:13:59 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: <6IhBpC.A.uMC.A1KHCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/57999 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: Frank Grimer > For anyone, who like me, is a novice at all things nuclear... and wants to know what "proton ordering" is, I have found a nice diagrammatic explanation at, > http://tinyurl.com/4umoj Another website which more graphically demonstrates particular point of interest, the tiny but very important, Ice-III phase, is at: http://www.uwgb.edu/dutchs/PETROLGY/Ice%20Structure.HTM find the image entitled "High-Pressure Ice Polymorphs" and look for the little green colored chunk at the bottom of the graphic. EXTROPY n. : A measure of energy, life, intelligence, information, or growth potential. The collection of forces which oppose entropy There is a very good point to be made about **proton ordering** in the context of entropy and extropy. Ice-III is an important precursor to ice-IX , a.k.a. ice-9, which is the proton-ordered and possibly ferroelectric state of ice - which has important hypothetical fuel-like characteristics. Caveat Lector: This idea (and this whole series of recent threads) is hypothetical, emergent, and fast evolving. It may change overnight in important details. It could fall flat on its face. Remember, we are trying to separate the wheat from the chafe in this complex and interlocking scheme of things, with limited resources, and any refinement to that thinking is appreciated. In this regard, "chafe" is not poisonous, and is kind of trendy these days so 'bon appetite... and anyway, it's extra fiber, so after digestion, if there is no-growth potential for you, then you can deposit it in the appropriate receptacle. Obviously, in a broad theoretical way, one can say that all types of ordering (and proton-ordering in particular) is a strong indication of extropy ...and consequently has a potential energy content, on that account alone. "Directed proton ordering" due to the harnessing entropy itself in the form of temperature reduction is an ironic twist, and can be said to show that nature is potentially self-ordering to an extent. The limit of that extent is what is known as ZPE. In other words, entropy can be used to actually create extropy under the right circumstances (the addition of information). Often, however, it does not take a lot of net energy input to break up proton-ordering, but that can be irrelevant. When that small amount of energy is applied on a very fast time scale, one can perhaps achieve a higher order acceleration (jerk or jounce), resulting in actual proton displacement. This is an expected side effect of 'jerk' at the nanoscale. When such higher order acceleration occurs and hydrogen bonds are fractured, the proton is temporarily freed, and can then combine with a remote oxygen molecule. One has, in effect, bootstrapped a low amount of energy into a high amount of energy, and done so "off-the-books" so to speak (if your books do not include ZPE). At least that is the hypothesis behind this. The discovery and existence of an ice transition into a ferroelectric phase has sparked considerable debate. The predicted transition at 98K is in good agreement with the observed transition at 72K, and the low temperature phase resulting in the ferroelectric phase has now been determined in diffraction experiments. This phase demands proton ordering, such as occurs when ice-3 changes to ice-9 under pressure. FERROELECTRIC adj. Of or relating to a crystalline dielectric that can be given a permanent electric polarization by application of an electric field. What this means, ultimately, in terms of being able to engineer an additional "hidden" energy content into ice, due to proton ordering, is not yet crystal clear, but it probably means that certain forms of highly particulated ice can hold an applied charge for extended periods, just like any good ultra-capacitor. After undergoing explosive brittle mechanical failure, they will then be poised, at the very same time, to dump the additional entrained electrical charge into the expanding redox explosion, adding to the energy multiplication effect. Ever hear of an "exploding capacitor"? Check google - you will get over 8000 hits and some nice images. One more reason why it makes sense, as a future transportation fuel, to consider the use of a hypothetical new type of liquid fuel: __ice-9 entrained, electrically-charged CA (cryo-air)__ as a substitute fuel for use in an internal combustion engine (ICE). If some planned experiments pan out, I will try to give this new fuel a cute name, perhaps something in honor of Gene Mallove, and his brave 1991 book "Fire from Ice"... maybe something like "fire-ice" even though it does not employ LENR. There is the potential here to create in an ecologically sound transportation fuel, with potentially far more energy content than is found in gasoline, at moderate cost, and with the potential to be made (at least partly) at home. The payoff could be huge. Stay tuned. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 23 09:34:39 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1NHYCi3010302; Wed, 23 Feb 2005 09:34:12 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1NHY42o010229; Wed, 23 Feb 2005 09:34:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 09:34:04 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <421CBEFE.1000704 ix.netcom.com> Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 10:35:58 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Notes from Scientific American References: <04e101c51935$67229d50$0958ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> <6.2.0.14.2.20050223090350.02b35900@pop.mindspring.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050223104958.02b1a3d8@pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050223104958.02b1a3d8 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58000 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > thomas malloy wrote: > >>> At this level, biology is an observational science. In other words, >>> this demand is like: >> >> >> You can't prove a negative, OTOH, look what happens when you cross a >> horse and a donkey. > > > As I pointed out in the previous message, what happens -- it turns out > -- is unclear. For a long time it was thought that mules are always > sterile, but it turns out that given half a chance some of them aren't. > Perhaps under the right circumstances in nature, a race of mules would > turn out to be viable. Would that prove that horses and donkeys are > actually the same species? As far as I am concerned, that would prove > the concept of "species" is largely an artifact of the human > imagination. It is a distinction that nature itself does not make with > as much clarity as we do. > > It is kind of like the difference between a sea and an ocean, or an > island and a continent. (Which is Australia? I can never remember.) > > It may also turn out that cold and hot fusion are fundamentally the same > process. They produce heat and helium in roughly similar proportions. As > Chris Tinsley used to say, burning sugar and metabolism look very > different but fundamentally they are the same. People love to make > distinctions that nature does not make. Actually, cold fusion and hot fusion are the same thing. The only differences are the environment and the proportion of reaction products. It is the environment that causes all the fuss. If fusion or other nuclear reactions are caused using high energy, the results are well known and accepted. It is only when such reactions are caused in the absence of this extra energy that people get upset. The process in going from high energy, where the environment is not important, to low energy, where the environment is very important, is a continuum, where the process changes in a continuous way between the extremes. It is funny to find that some people will accept results obtained at one energy but will reject results obtained at a slightly lower energy. Ed > > - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 23 10:02:52 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1NI2Oi3024990; Wed, 23 Feb 2005 10:02:25 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1NI2ILZ024949; Wed, 23 Feb 2005 10:02:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 10:02:18 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Practical application for BLP technology Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 13:03:17 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58001 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Thomas, you write: >I find it odd that BLP ignored me. Why? Can you explain to the rest of us why you think he should take your offer seriously? Have you ever done any contract work for the military? Do you have sufficient money and experience to run a start up? When you write, "I suggested using hydrinos to harden the interior of cannon barrels." do you have any idea how you would actually apply the described technology to achieve your stated result? K. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 23 10:47:00 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1NIkfi3023876; Wed, 23 Feb 2005 10:46:42 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1NIkdoo023853; Wed, 23 Feb 2005 10:46:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 10:46:39 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050223134424.02bb1488 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 13:46:18 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Incredible battery and TOE In-Reply-To: <001801c51944$6e6265a0$9579ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> References: <007301c5184f$b65c1c20$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> <03e301c51867$93108a40$0958ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> <6.2.0.14.2.20050222182628.02b4f0f0 pop.mindspring.com> <001801c51944$6e6265a0$9579ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_17350671==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58002 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_17350671==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Mike Carrell wrote: >Jed is terminally pessimistic about Mills' business prospects, >since Mills is not following Jed's favorite buisness model, but neither is >anyone in the CF community. And no one in the CF community is getting anywhere either! I rest my case. Seriously, I think it is too early to talk about business opportunities in CF. The research is still at the basic physics level. I have no idea whether this is also true of Mills or not. - Jed --=====================_17350671==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Mike Carrell wrote:

Jed is terminally pessimistic about Mills' business prospects,
since Mills is not following Jed's favorite buisness model, but neither is
anyone in the CF community.

And no one in the CF community is getting anywhere either! I rest my case.

Seriously, I think it is too early to talk about business opportunities in CF. The research is still at the basic physics level. I have no idea whether this is also true of Mills or not.

- Jed
--=====================_17350671==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 23 11:28:13 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1NJRxi3017391; Wed, 23 Feb 2005 11:27:59 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1NJRt81017344; Wed, 23 Feb 2005 11:27:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 11:27:55 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050223142532.02b25d88 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 14:27:41 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: US advantage in technology slips away Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58003 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: See: http://www.boston.com/business/technology/articles/2005/02/20/us_could_see_its_advantage_in_technology_slip_away/ "China now graduates four times as many engineers as the United States, while the European Union countries graduate three times as many. At the same time, the US lead is slipping in technology patents and science and engineering doctoral degrees. Emerging nations are also becoming adept at capitalizing on technologies invented in the developed world." As teenagers say: Well, duh. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 23 11:48:03 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1NJlUi3025449; Wed, 23 Feb 2005 11:47:31 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1NJl0FD025143; Wed, 23 Feb 2005 11:47:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 11:47:00 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 14:43:53 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: US advantage in technology slips away In-reply-to: <6.2.0.14.2.20050223142532.02b25d88 pop.mindspring.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: <2fRRHB.A.uIG.02NHCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58004 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: It is a great deal for the US. The rest of world pays to educate its engineers, and then they go and work in the US. Harry Jed Rothwell at jedrothwell mindspring.com wrote: > See: > > http://www.boston.com/business/technology/articles/2005/02/20/us_could_see_its > _advantage_in_technology_slip_away/ > > "China now graduates four times as many engineers as the United States, > while the European Union countries graduate three times as many. At the > same time, the US lead is slipping in technology patents and science and > engineering doctoral degrees. Emerging nations are also becoming adept at > capitalizing on technologies invented in the developed world." > > As teenagers say: Well, duh. > > - Jed > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 23 11:53:16 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1NJqsi3027781; Wed, 23 Feb 2005 11:52:54 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1NJqmh6027711; Wed, 23 Feb 2005 11:52:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 11:52:48 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050223144956.02b66030 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 14:52:17 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: US advantage in technology slips away In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050223142532.02b25d88 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_21307140==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: <7gzWAC.A.xwG.P8NHCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58005 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_21307140==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Harry Veeder wrote: >It is a great deal for the US. > >The rest of world pays to educate its engineers, and then they go and work >in the US. The point of the article is that they are not sticking around to work in the US anymore. They go home. They are not even coming as much as they used to, thanks partly to the new "homeland security" laws. - Jed --=====================_21307140==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Harry Veeder wrote:

It is a great deal for the US.

The rest of world pays to educate its engineers, and then they go and work
in the US.

The point of the article is that they are not sticking around to work in the US anymore. They go home. They are not even coming as much as they used to, thanks partly to the new "homeland security" laws.

- Jed
--=====================_21307140==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 23 12:03:19 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1NK2wi3001177; Wed, 23 Feb 2005 12:02:58 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1NK2jSu001037; Wed, 23 Feb 2005 12:02:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 12:02:45 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=thLDoQ6biobYWpZn2H+VyVxXAoHcKi1dctdECQKJr8a3xb1MTsOIxg/7OppsVuYTse7rKPqWL0Kuh9KUZ3d7U4z77HnCkneIoEs3n14F1DLlOD/AW0wJ+R3kCp0k37e2n6guYcPFvIRTQ+vnzVKE1/VU1E70ujk4i2IPXU0kqyA= ; Message-ID: <20050223200157.8819.qmail web51710.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 12:01:57 -0800 (PST) From: Terry Blanton Subject: Re: Notes from Scientific American To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <421C9D76.7050601 pobox.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-712938071-1109188917=:3144" Resent-Message-ID: <0qayW.A.8P.jFOHCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58006 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-712938071-1109188917=:3144 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Emergence of new species are observed frequently in flora. Fauna speciation observance is less common except in single and small multi-celluar organisms. Google 'observed speciation' for returns such as: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-speciation.html "Stephen A. Lawrence" wrote: Check out studies of island ecologies. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Sports - Sign up for Fantasy Baseball. --0-712938071-1109188917=:3144 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Emergence of new species are observed frequently in flora.  Fauna speciation observance is less common except in single and small multi-celluar organisms.  Google 'observed speciation' for returns such as:
 


"Stephen A. Lawrence" <salaw pobox.com> wrote:
Check out studies of island ecologies.

Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Sports - Sign up for Fantasy Baseball. --0-712938071-1109188917=:3144-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 23 12:24:57 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1NKObi3011672; Wed, 23 Feb 2005 12:24:37 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1NKOWPc011616; Wed, 23 Feb 2005 12:24:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 12:24:32 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 15:20:02 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: US advantage in technology slips away In-reply-to: <6.2.0.14.2.20050223144956.02b66030 pop.mindspring.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_QrrEvlkQT20jEnJCVNnp0A)" User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: <2Lt5aD.A.P1C.8ZOHCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58007 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --Boundary_(ID_QrrEvlkQT20jEnJCVNnp0A) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Economists don't help because they equate education with consumption rather than production. Harry Jed Rothwell at jedrothwell mindspring.com wrote: Harry Veeder wrote: It is a great deal for the US. The rest of world pays to educate its engineers, and then they go and work in the US. The point of the article is that they are not sticking around to work in the US anymore. They go home. They are not even coming as much as they used to, thanks partly to the new "homeland security" laws. - Jed --Boundary_(ID_QrrEvlkQT20jEnJCVNnp0A) Content-type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Re: US advantage in technology slips away Economists don't help because they equate education with consumption rather than
production.



Harry

Jed Rothwell at jedrothwell mindspring.com wrote:

Harry Veeder wrote:

It is a great deal for the US.

The rest of world pays to educate its engineers, and then they go and work
in the US.

The point of the article is that they are not sticking around to work in the US anymore. They go home. They are not even coming as much as they used to, thanks partly to the new "homeland security" laws.

- Jed


--Boundary_(ID_QrrEvlkQT20jEnJCVNnp0A)-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 23 12:51:56 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1NKpYvM024552; Wed, 23 Feb 2005 12:51:34 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1NKpIoK024363; Wed, 23 Feb 2005 12:51:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 12:51:18 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 15:47:54 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: Practical application for BLP technology In-reply-to: To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58008 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Unlike the emergence of modern science, I don't think the emerging post-modern science is looking for affirmation from the military. ;-) Harry thomas malloy at temalloy metro.lakes.com wrote: > I contacted Randall about a license. He forwarded my email to one of > his subordinates. My original intention was energy production. But I > considering what Mike Carrell had said about it's commercialization > being 20 years in the future. I suggested using hydrinos to harden > the interior of cannon barrels. The is only one customer for this > service, but if you've got what they want, they will pay any price > you want. I find it odd that BLP ignored me. > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 23 17:44:04 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1O1hq2B018224; Wed, 23 Feb 2005 17:43:52 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1O1hnBC018206; Wed, 23 Feb 2005 17:43:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 17:43:49 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <00ca01c51a11$6a8b2fc0$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: The See-Saw Universe? Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 17:37:34 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00C7_01C519CE.5C033A80" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58010 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00C7_01C519CE.5C033A80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ...or, the remnants of the better-part of an afternoon spent looking for = the Dark Side of Oz in cosmological synchronicity, instead of saving = mankind with "fire-ice" ... Auntie Em:=20 Why don't you find a place where there isn't any trouble.=20 Dorothy:=20 A place where there isn't any trouble... Do you suppose there is such a = place, Toto? ... Behind the moon, beyond the rain ? Many Eastern, and most synthesis religions (Hinduism, Buddhism, and the = New Age movement in general) state that everything, including the = universe as a whole but especially its functional parts, all undergo = successive stages of cyclical reappearance. It can be reincarnation: = birth, death, and rebirth, and it can proceed all the way down to a = singularity, or just look more like be a sustained pulsation - but there = are cycles and cycles-within-cycles at every level. Quite a beautiful = accounting, really. The Hindu scriptures state that the universe is successively born in = cyclical "kalpas" every 4.32 billion years. Was this precise bit of data = a "gift" from an advanced informant, or was Swami Muad'Dib abusing the = spice again? Given the (assumed in the West) age of the universe being = 12-15 billion years, this value is not off by a great factor, but = plugging in other assumptions, like variable lightspeed or MOND and = considering the "universe" to be only our Virgo super-cluster, this = kalpa span "could" be rather accurate... or not. It certainly was more = accurate than anything the West had to offer for over 2000 years. The ability of the universe to oscillate is dependent upon a certain = critical mass but more importantly on how mass and energy interchange = with each other around that critical mass. An accumulating critical = mass, based on absorbing (previously released) photons, is required to = slow down the expansion of the universe and force a contraction, and a = universe shedding more photons than it absorbs will expand, supposedly. = If this total critical mass is never present, then the universe will = continue to expand into eternity... which is the unsettling, and = certainly incorrect, conclusion of mainstream astronomy in the USA. Below is a bit of evidence that favors the notion that "dark matter" = plays a critical role in providing the mass necessary for = oscillation, keeping the universe from expanding forever, and supporting = part of the TOE theory mentioned recently, in re: Randy Mills and his = version of an oscillating universe. Mills' details, including the very = long period of oscillation, seems to be extremely unlikely, however. The best thing about Mills' view (which is not original) is that the = universe never really shrinks that far, never gets close to a "big = crunch" and never has a "big bang" either. In any oscillation there will = be a maximum and a minimum size, but this does not necessarily have to = be constant across successive cycles. Nor does it need even be a = "universal" feature. Local oscillation is sufficient and probably more = accurate (if one can use the term "local" rather loosely to mean 100 = hundred million light-years). For our "real" universe may only extend = that far: http://www.anzwers.org/free/universe/virgo.html=20 To paraphrase a more prescient observer of cosmology than Mills, all we = can really know for sure from present day astronomy is that there IS = both a red shift and a blue shift among celestial objects, and most of = them - in terms of actual "items" are "blue shifted." Everything else is = supposition. There is slightly firmer evidence that everything blue = shifted to us, which is in our "supercluster" is comparatively smaller, = younger, and closer than everything red-shifted, but from there on - all = conclusions are based on assumed premises, some very shaky. If a galaxy is red-shifted now, that only means it was once moving away = from us. What is happening to galaxies with large red-shifts, at this = exact moment in our 3-space, those which appear to be ten billion light = years away from us, cannot be even imagined with any certainty. We have = no idea what is happening to them, now. They could easily be gone by = now. We really know very little about what is happening in the universe = outside of our own supercluster at the present moment. If the light is = 10 billion years old, then that tells us nothing about what is going on = presently unless we ASSUME a linear continuation of the long past = situation, and the continuation of physics and inertia of the universe = which was present at that ancient period. That is way too much to assume = logically. As Anais Nin so eloquently expressed, "We don't see things as they are, = we see them as we are". Humans have been accurately measuring the = heavens for a few hundreds of years, and yet we want to assume a = continuity of cause-and-effect which spans many billions of years. = Bizarre, but very human. Even more locally, the blue-shifted light we see from neighboring = Andromeda left there over two million years ago, maybe. All we know is = that our mirror galaxy was apparently moving toward us two million years = ago - if lightspeed has not changed significantly during that span. BUT = we do not know what Andromeda is doing in 2005, earth- time... or is = that ..."star date"? For trekkies, I suppose a "star date" was supposed = to equate with a more universal standard, which would be nice - = something like GMT... but was more likely to have been thrown-in to a = script by underpaid screen-writers whose objective was sound-byte = plausibility, a cosmo-poetic ring, and getting Shattner off the set = before happy hour.=20 At any rate, make no mistake, Hubble deals mostly with what was = happening in the past, not with what is happening now. The further that = we go into the past, the more shaky any conclusions become, even light = speed... or for that matter, "dark speed." Occam=92s razor, which is the = silly expedient which we love to cite... only when it fits our = prejudices, say=92s that the simplest explanation which fits all of the = known facts is probably the correct one. The simplest explanation for = the Hubble data is that the expansion of the universe has stopped. = Period. Beyond that it is supposition. A better model for a TOE might be based on a succession of "little = bangs" based on **independent supercluster universes,** which pulse back = and forth through dualities - a paired-linkage of some kind. IOW our = Virgo supercluster could somehow be linked through a "wormhole" to = another similar supercluster in another region of space, or dimension of = time, and we would share a see-saw oscillation with that universe. At some point, one or the other supercluster could even go "dark". This = model could be bolstered if there was a smaller scale model of it within = our own supercluster. Here is a news story form the sci-wire on a galaxy-size dark object, not = a supercluster by any means, but the model may be similar. This object = is not that far away from us really... using certain assumptions. But = using others, could it even be connected to the "black hole" in the = center of our Milky Way galaxy?.. or to the black-hole in our "mirror = image galaxy" which is Andromeda. And BTW are we really that sure that = Andromeda is not "us" being reflected back by first-level curvature = (fodder for another posting). Anyway here is the surprising story: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/south_east/4288633.stm "Astronomers find star-less galaxy "... ahem... The invisible galaxy = could only be 'seen' using radio waves, it is added. Astronomers say = they believe they have discovered an object that appears to be an = invisible galaxy made almost entirely of dark matter." The galaxy is about 50 million light-years away from earth that appears = to be composed entirely of dark matter. Shouldn't that be 50 million = darkyears? quips a Slash-dotter. "No, the 'speed of dark' is still = unknown, but it is expected to be a lot faster than speed of light. = Because where ever the light goes, the dark is already there waiting for = it." Hope you got a big a laugh out of that one as I did. Seems to squash MOND, doesn't it? The basic issue which spawned MOND = before this dark galaxy had been discovered: The evidence for mass = discrepancies in extragalactic systems is clear. But what is the = explanation? Either... Most of the Mass in the Universe is Invisible (Dark Matter), or=20 Dynamical Laws must be Modified (MOND).=20 http://www.astro.umd.edu/~ssm/mond/ Jones Somewhere over the rainbow... way up high, there's a land that I heard of...once in a lullaby. Somewhere over the rainbow skies are blue, and the dreams that you dare to dream...really do come true. Ha! A chance whimsical discovery to share with the more adventuresome = reader of vortex.This is getting off-topic and into the art/music world = but vulgarity and political overtones have been largely removed. Do you believe that *Synchronicity* is a feature of the universe, or at = least of the human mind? Psychologist Carl Jung coined the term = "synchronicity" to describe unrelated events that somehow seem linked... = which is not exactly the same as when Yogi says, "it's like deja vu all = over again" but close. http://www.synchronicityarkive.com/ takes on this topic of synchronicity in a very light-hearted and = anecdotal way - restricted mostly to the pop music scene.=20 Especially in art, synchronicity seems to be a regular feature of the = creative group-mind. To paraphrase a bit of this site: Early in the = history of film, it was discovered that the music which a film or piece = of visual imagery is displayed with has a powerful influence on how it = is perceived... And that there was remarkable commonality in the = correlation among observers, as if the two "were meant for each other." = even though often separated by many generations and countries of origin = in time and space. Such is the remarkable synchronicity between the = "Wizard of Oz" and Dark Side of the Moon"... not to mention "Thus Spake = Zarathustra" and 2001/2010... but that was pre-planned, whereas the = "Dark Side of Oz" weirdness seems almost coincidental. William S. Burroughs, the prototypical 'experimenter' first with = intoxicants and then with the art of montage, was one of the first = pioneers to put random clips of film to different supposedly unrelated = music, creating the art of the synchronicity (not ot mention many = life-long substance abusers). The concept became an integral part of the = psychedelic scene of the 1960s... or so I have been told ;-) Ok, onto the "Dark Side of Oz" weirdness --if you play Pink Floyd's = Dark Side of the Moon and Judy's film, starting at the 3rd lion roar at = the beginning of the Wizard of Oz, that there are some really ... well = strange coincidences, as the movie and album sync up in eerie ways. http://members.cox.net/stegokitty/dsotr_pages/dsotr.htm It's intriguing to consider that two different forms of media might = "match up" to create a single coherent experience, but who would ever = think this pair - the moody classic "Dark Side of the Moon" would sync = with Dorothy and Toto? Is it random chance, or intended art, or = something subliminal?=20 Judging by the theories which have been expressed, it's doubtful that = Pink Floyd actually "intended" a match or that they were even more than = vaguely aware of the content of the movie (being somewhat off on their = own m=E9lange-abuse-program. But "suggestion" even if it is subliminal, = seems to play a big role in the creative experience. But since Pink = (which one is Floyd ?) denies doing anything intentional, we are left to = speculate if the album "syncs" are just the work of the little man = behind the curtain... "homunculi" of the Sheldrake version at least are "real," in case you = didn't know....or is that sentiment coming from a recurrent 'Sense Of = Being Stared At' lately...? One hope it is not the MIB. ------=_NextPart_000_00C7_01C519CE.5C033A80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
...or, the remnants of the better-part of an afternoon spent = looking for=20 the Dark Side of Oz in cosmological synchronicity, instead of saving = mankind=20 with "fire-ice" <G> ...
 
Auntie Em:
Why don't you find a place where there isn't any trouble.

Dorothy:
A place where there isn't any trouble... Do you suppose there is = such a=20 place, Toto? ... Behind the moon, beyond the rain ?
 
Many Eastern, and most synthesis religions (Hinduism, = Buddhism, and=20 the New Age movement in general) state that everything, including the = universe=20 as a whole but especially its functional parts, all undergo successive = stages of=20 cyclical reappearance. It can be reincarnation: birth, death, and = rebirth, and=20 it can proceed all the way down to a singularity, or just look more = like be=20 a sustained pulsation - but there are cycles and cycles-within-cycles at = every=20 level. Quite a beautiful accounting, really.
 
The Hindu scriptures state that the universe is successively born = in=20 cyclical "kalpas" every 4.32 billion years. Was this precise bit of data = a=20 "gift" from an advanced informant, or was Swami Muad'Dib abusing the = spice=20 again? Given the (assumed in the West) age of the universe = being 12-15=20 billion years, this value is not off by a great factor, but plugging in = other=20 assumptions, like variable lightspeed or MOND and considering=20 the "universe" to be only our Virgo super-cluster, this=20 kalpa span "could" be rather accurate... or not. It certainly = was more=20 accurate than anything the West had to offer for over 2000 years.
 
The ability of the universe to oscillate is dependent upon a = certain=20 critical mass but more importantly on how mass and energy interchange = with each=20 other around that critical mass. An accumulating critical mass, based on = absorbing (previously released) photons, is required to slow down = the=20 expansion of the universe and force a contraction, and a universe = shedding more=20 photons than it absorbs will expand, supposedly. If this total critical = mass is=20 never present,  then the universe will continue to expand into = eternity...=20 which is the unsettling, and certainly incorrect, conclusion of = mainstream=20 astronomy in the USA.
 
Below is a bit of evidence that favors the notion that "dark = matter" plays=20 a critical role <pi> in providing the mass necessary for = oscillation,=20 keeping the universe from expanding forever, and supporting part of the = TOE=20 theory mentioned recently, in re: Randy Mills and his version of=20 an oscillating universe. Mills' details, including the very long = period of=20 oscillation, seems to be extremely unlikely, however.
 
The best thing about Mills' view (which is not original) = is that=20 the universe never really shrinks that far, never gets close to a "big = crunch"=20 and never has a "big bang" either. In any oscillation there will be a = maximum=20 and a minimum size, but this does not necessarily have to be constant = across=20 successive cycles. Nor does it need even be a "universal" feature. Local = oscillation is sufficient and probably more accurate (if one can = use the=20 term "local" rather loosely to mean 100 hundred million light-years). = For our=20 "real" universe may only extend that far:
http://www.anzwe= rs.org/free/universe/virgo.html 
 
To paraphrase a more prescient observer of cosmology than Mills, = all we can=20 really know for sure from present day astronomy is that there IS both a = red=20 shift and a blue shift among celestial objects, and most of them - in = terms of=20 actual "items" are "blue shifted." Everything else is supposition. There = is=20 slightly firmer evidence that everything blue shifted to us, which is in = our=20 "supercluster" is comparatively smaller, younger, and closer than = everything=20 red-shifted, but from there on - all conclusions are based on assumed = premises,=20 some very shaky.
 
If a galaxy is red-shifted now, that only means it was = once=20 moving away from us. What is happening to galaxies with large = red-shifts, at=20 this exact moment in our 3-space, those which appear to be ten = billion=20 light years away from us, cannot be even imagined with any certainty. We = have no=20 idea what is happening to them, now. They could easily be gone by = now.
 
We really know very little about what is happening in the universe = outside=20 of our own supercluster at the  present moment. If the light is 10 = billion=20 years old, then that tells us nothing about what is going on presently = unless we=20 ASSUME a linear continuation of the long past situation, and the = continuation of=20 physics and inertia of the universe which was present at that = ancient=20 period. That is way too much to assume logically.
 
As Anais Nin so eloquently expressed, "We don't see things as they = are, we=20 see them as we are". Humans have been accurately measuring the heavens = for a few=20 hundreds of years, and yet we want to assume a continuity of = cause-and-effect=20 which spans many billions of years. Bizarre, but very human.
Even more locally, the blue-shifted light we see from neighboring = Andromeda=20 left there over two million years ago, maybe. All we know is that our = mirror=20 galaxy was apparently moving toward us two million years ago - if=20 lightspeed has not changed significantly during that span. BUT we do not = know=20 what Andromeda is doing in 2005, earth- time... or is that ..."star = date"? For=20 trekkies, I suppose a "star date" was supposed to equate with a more = universal=20 standard, which would be nice - something like GMT... but was = more=20 likely to have been  thrown-in to a script by underpaid = screen-writers=20 whose objective was sound-byte plausibility, a cosmo-poetic ring, and = getting=20 Shattner off the set before happy hour. 
 
At any rate, make no mistake, Hubble deals mostly with what was = happening=20 in the past, not with what is happening now. The further that we go into = the=20 past, the more shaky any conclusions become, even light speed... or for = that=20 matter, "dark speed." Occam=92s razor, which is the silly expedient = which we love=20 to cite... only when it fits our prejudices, say=92s that=20 the simplest explanation which fits all of the known facts is = probably the=20 correct one. The simplest explanation for the Hubble data is that the = expansion=20 of the universe has stopped. Period. Beyond that it is = supposition.
 
A better model for a TOE might be based on a succession of "little = bangs"=20 based on **independent supercluster universes,** which pulse back and = forth=20 through dualities - a paired-linkage of some kind. IOW our Virgo = supercluster=20 could somehow be linked through a "wormhole" to another similar = supercluster in=20 another region of space, or dimension of time, and we would share a = see-saw=20 oscillation with that universe.
 
At some point, one or the other supercluster could even go "dark". = This=20 model could be bolstered if there was a smaller scale model of it within = our own=20 supercluster.
 
Here is a news story form the sci-wire on a galaxy-size dark = object, not a=20 supercluster by any means, but the model may be similar. This object is = not=20 that far away from us really... using certain assumptions. But = using=20 others, could it even be connected to the "black hole" in the center of = our=20 Milky Way galaxy?.. or to the black-hole in our "mirror image galaxy" = which is=20 Andromeda. And BTW are we really that sure that Andromeda is not "us" = being=20 reflected back by first-level curvature (fodder for another = posting).
 
Anyway here is the surprising story:
http://n= ews.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/south_east/4288633.stm
 
"Astronomers find star-less galaxy "... ahem... The invisible = galaxy could=20 only be 'seen' using radio waves, it is added. Astronomers say they = believe they=20 have discovered an object that appears to be an invisible galaxy made = almost=20 entirely of dark matter."
 
The galaxy is about 50 million light-years away from earth = that=20 appears to be composed entirely of dark matter.  Shouldn't that be = 50=20 million darkyears? quips a Slash-dotter. "No, the 'speed of dark' is = still=20 unknown, but it is expected to be a lot faster than speed of light. = Because=20 where ever the light goes, the dark is already there waiting for it." = Hope you=20 got a big a laugh out of that one as I did.
 
Seems to squash MOND, doesn't it?  The basic issue which = spawned MOND=20 before this dark galaxy had been discovered: The evidence for mass = discrepancies=20 in extragalactic systems is clear. But what is the explanation? = Either...
 
Most of the Mass in the Universe is Invisible (Dark Matter), or=20
Dynamical Laws must be Modified (MOND).
http://www.astro.umd.edu/~ss= m/mond/
 
Jones
 
Somewhere over the rainbow... way up high,
there's a land that I = heard=20 of...once in a lullaby.
 
Somewhere over the rainbow skies are blue,
and the dreams that = you dare=20 to dream...really do come true.
 
 
Ha! A chance whimsical discovery to share with the more = adventuresome=20 reader of vortex.This is getting off-topic and into the art/music world = but=20 vulgarity and political overtones have been largely removed.
 
Do you believe that *Synchronicity* is a feature of the universe, = or at=20 least of the human mind? Psychologist Carl Jung coined the term = "synchronicity"=20 to describe unrelated events that somehow seem linked... which is not = exactly=20 the same as when Yogi says, "it's like deja vu all over again" but=20 close.
http://www.synchronicityarki= ve.com/
takes on this topic of synchronicity in a very light-hearted = and=20 anecdotal way - restricted mostly to the pop music scene.
 
Especially in art, synchronicity seems to be a regular feature of = the=20 creative group-mind. To paraphrase a bit of this site: Early in the = history of=20 film, it was discovered that the music which a film or piece of visual = imagery=20 is displayed with has a powerful influence on how it is perceived... And = that=20 there was remarkable commonality in the correlation among observers, as = if the=20 two "were meant for each other." even though often separated by many = generations=20 and countries of origin in time and space. Such is the remarkable = synchronicity=20 between the "Wizard of Oz" and Dark Side of the Moon"... not to mention = "Thus=20 Spake Zarathustra" and 2001/2010... but that was pre-planned, whereas=20 the  "Dark Side of Oz"  weirdness seems almost=20 coincidental.
 
William S. Burroughs, the prototypical 'experimenter' = first with=20 intoxicants and then with the art of montage, was one of the first = pioneers to=20 put random clips of film to different supposedly unrelated music, = creating the=20 art of the synchronicity (not ot mention many life-long substance = abusers). The=20 concept became an integral part of the psychedelic scene of the 1960s... = or so I=20 have been told ;-)
 
Ok, onto the "Dark Side of Oz"  weirdness --if = you play=20 Pink Floyd's Dark Side of the Moon and Judy's film, starting at the 3rd = lion=20 roar at the beginning of the Wizard of Oz, that there are some really = ... well=20 strange coincidences, as the movie and album sync up in eerie = ways.
http://m= embers.cox.net/stegokitty/dsotr_pages/dsotr.htm
 
It's intriguing to consider that two different forms of media might = "match=20 up" to create a single coherent experience, but who would ever think = this pair -=20 the moody classic "Dark Side of the Moon" would sync with Dorothy and=20 Toto?  Is it random chance, or intended art, or something = subliminal?=20
 
Judging by the theories which have been expressed, it's doubtful = that Pink=20 Floyd actually "intended" a match or that they were even more than=20 vaguely aware of the content of the movie (being somewhat off on = their own=20 m=E9lange-abuse-program. But "suggestion" even if it is=20 subliminal, seems to play a big role in the creative experience. = But since=20 Pink (which one is Floyd ?) denies doing anything intentional, we are = left to=20 speculate if the album "syncs" are just the work of the little man = behind the=20 curtain...
 
"homunculi" of the Sheldrake version at least are "real," = in case=20 you didn't know....or is that sentiment coming from a recurrent =  'Sense Of=20 Being Stared At' lately...? One hope it is not the = MIB.
------=_NextPart_000_00C7_01C519CE.5C033A80-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 23 15:18:45 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1NNIVmG030871; Wed, 23 Feb 2005 15:18:32 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1NNITKv030840; Wed, 23 Feb 2005 15:18:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 15:18:29 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <200502232318.j1NNIOmG030769 ultra5.eskimo.com> Reply-To: From: "Don Wiegel" To: Subject: Compressed Air Engine Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 16:18:18 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Thread-Index: AcUZ/e99tbEy9SkuQfW6hgMS8Ur7IQ== Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58009 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com X-Suspected-Spam: billb friends3 Status: RO X-Status: A "COMPRESSED AIR" Engine ... http://www.theaircar.com/engine.html After ten years of research and development of pollution-free engines and cars powered by compressed air, MDI is proud to present: Compressed Air Technology systems C C.A.T's -DonW- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 23 18:38:06 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1O2bglC005042; Wed, 23 Feb 2005 18:37:42 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1O2bdGW005024; Wed, 23 Feb 2005 18:37:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 18:37:39 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=lQq3TJZU6WTFgb1F4rpffh/PTkJYefP1fjCcUIw5sEmZPwTqQC+yN4zMmPDwhrVf9Z6lu3mwyrMIraHG3Q28+2mOmGcWpafuhWYDFcVA3Cb/PjOGfXHFQ9y1NauvEYPJ3/YtbLhTTuUqFi5TAYZWiKt0fcenMtNJ/kepA3QbboA= ; Message-ID: <20050224023732.54194.qmail web41510.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 18:37:32 -0800 (PST) From: Harvey Norris Subject: Re: Proton ordering and extropy To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <003201c519c2$af87f580$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58011 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > The payoff could be huge. Stay tuned. > > Jones Likewise Sizings at first become a formidable obstacle. Like the size of one's mind. The mind only needs one example for a theory to be possible. So many examples may exist that discrimination becomes necessary in this vast reserve of thought. But as the Russians say bigger is better... It is possible to make a coil big enough so that its capacity to resonate at the designated frequency can fit inside the coil itself orthogonally, as an orthogonal axial capacity, creating an electric field at right angles to the magnetic field in their oscillations of stored energy. Such a flux capacitor idea resembles the zen koan; "What is the sound of one hand clapping?" Likewise in expansions of probable outcomes we eliminate that Zen and deal with the sound of two hands clapping. In this regard with timing two resonances co existing in time; but differing in phasing origins can react so and so... But anyhows looking at water capacities in this larger realm a simple fact was established that the AC capacity enclosed by the inductor in only a single phase developement of the flux capacitor shows that the enclosed electric field changing in time itself produces a changing magnetic field 90 degrees later in time; which in turn alters the original LC calculations based on the resonance. What it means is that actually three choices of C as the resonant value value exist according to how we arrange C in space. A situation can be conceptially arranged where when when water turns to ice, it instantly becomes engaged in a high voltage circuit by virtue of the axial water capacities C value becoming into the needed LC combination for resonance. Rather simply; a non resonant LC combination in water state becomes resonant when the water sample freezes. As such the crystallation formation of ice is accompanied by a regulation making the excessive voltage pressure dictated by the q factor to only appear during that phase transfer from liquid to solid state. It should easily be feasible to create "resonant ice" formations by that principle. And likewise simply freezing a sample of water to ice in a high voltage field is different in time to the situation where the high voltage is dependent on the freezing action alone, and not vice versa where the external environment supplies that requirement. With some things about imagination, it seems possible in the realm of dreams that diodic ice should be possible, once the water sample itself can be shown to perform that way, whereby in multiphasing of resonances spatially the closer in time coexistant magnetic and electric fields can be reacted spatially, the more the orthogonal reaction becomes unidirectional, acquiring a DC aspect. The first thought becomes complicated by the facts, it should not be possible to freeze a circulation of electric current in the the axial capacity C, because at the moment of freezing its C value significantly changes, but at the same time keeping this reverse engineering in mind it should be possible to create such a "imprint" upon freezing as a form of conditioning. But just some comments about ideas. A C value of 1-2 nf is used in my experimentation of alternator 480 hz resonances where I used plexiglass capacities, that produce a loud whining noise resembling a musical note pitch at 480 hz operation. An axial water capacity in this value will also whine, in a muffled version of that noise, but the water molecules are vibrating so severely to produce sound, and great surface tension. In that situation if the sample were to be frozen, it would loose all the high voltage by virtue of C value change. Thus one cannot simply "freeze" an action when the very act of freezing changes the requirements for action ect ect ect.... HDN From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 23 20:47:20 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1O4l1lC020923; Wed, 23 Feb 2005 20:47:01 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1O4l062020905; Wed, 23 Feb 2005 20:47:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 20:47:00 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20050223203953.05b9de08 mail.dlsi.net> X-Sender: steven%newenergytimes.com mail.dlsi.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 20:51:03 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Planck's second law (science progresses one funeral at a time) In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050222165505.02b13bb0 pop.mindspring.com> References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050222162520.02b091e0 pop.mindspring.com> <045301c51920$329faba0$0958ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> <6.2.0.14.2.20050222162520.02b091e0 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58012 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Incidentally, based on my experiences dealing with people who oppose cold >fusion, I do not think any of them -- Park, the Japanese, or the Sci. Am. >editors -- has the slightest inkling he might be wrong. They sincerely >believe that cold fusion is 100% unadulterated fraud and garbage. I have to agree with Jed on that. I've seen the same behavior. And it's not a mental behavior. It's a manifestation of a fixed belief. I have little hope for such people. Though Park is slightly different. I think he likes attention first, and facts second. If cf ever gets publicly accepted in his lifetime, I predict he'll be one of the early ones who "privately knew it all along." Park has some brians (though no tact) and he also is close with at least one prominent cf researcher - so when he smells things starting to turn, he'll choose the winners's side. It's already started. He was quoted a few months ago as saying, "I wouldn't invest in cold fusion just yet." Let's see what investment advice he has in 24 months. But Happer, Huizenga, Close - SciAm - they've dug themselves so deep, and they, unlike Park, are isolated from the field. I don't think they can dig out. Steve From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 23 22:44:06 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1O6hZC9002371; Wed, 23 Feb 2005 22:43:36 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1O6hXNb002343; Wed, 23 Feb 2005 22:43:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 22:43:33 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Incredible battery and TOE Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 17:43:23 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <007301c5184f$b65c1c20$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> <03e301c51867$93108a40$0958ccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <025c01c51878$76f5f5a0$d0bcfea9@jonesb9pacbell> <043901c518fe$dae4e180$0958ccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> In-Reply-To: <043901c518fe$dae4e180$0958ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j1O6hSC9002299 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58013 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Mike Carrell's message of Tue, 22 Feb 2005 11:28:11 -0500: Hi, [snip] >factor in LENR. That may be so, but it is not useful. Mills has reported >seeing emission lines he associates with p = 7 hydrinos, and maybe p =16, >but I suspect the population is small. Mills has enough problems with the >technology he is studying without dissipating his efforts with CF, LENR and >CANR. Far from dissipating his efforts, such an approach may just be his saving grace. First, the average nuclear reaction is going to yield about 1000 times the energy (~ 1 MeV) of his best average hydrino yield (i.e. ~1000 eV/ hydrino). Second, the high energy ionising radiation likely to result from a nuclear reaction can create thousands of catalysts ions from each nuclear reaction. That may be just what is needed to close the gap between commercial and non-commercial. The whole thing can still be a clean reactor, if the primary nuclear reaction creates alpha particles. Without nuclear reactions, he must depend on hydrino reactions themselves creating sufficient ions to catalyze further reactions. That is probably currently his main problem. IOW making the reaction self sustaining. [snip] >"authorities" as you well know. So if you are CEO of a potential partner are >you going to sink big bucks into a project which may not scale up easily and >may have serious problems, like requiring ultra pure reagents to work? Of course, if this is used as a path to fusion, then the fuel requirements will be relatively speaking so low, that ultra-purity would be no problem. However I doubt that ultra purity really is a problem in the first place. In fact I suspect that quite the opposite is true, it may work better if its dirtier (i.e. lots of different elements thrown in). [snip] JB: >> If it requires BLP to use deuterium, then you bite the >> bullet and use deuterium. If it requires you to deal with >> the NRC, then you deal with the NRC. It is as simple as >> that. He has been using nuclear materials, and dealing with >> NRC in his medical research for 20 years. This no-NRC excuse >> is a big pile of stinking crapola, IMHO. It probably doesn't actually. The dependence of fusion time on separation distance is so strong that hydrinos should be able to make a reality of reactions such as Li7 + H -> 2 He4, and B11 + H -> 3 He4. Furthermore this dependence is largely concentrated at the high end of the distance, i.e. one doesn't need much reduction to get a large improvement. [snip] >water. The last time I talked to Mills, several years ago, he said he was >about a factor of 4 away from a closed loop. ...and a 1000 fold improvement from fusion would put him over the top by a factor of 250. [snip] JB: >> Artic warming is a gigantic risk, a risk of extinction >> threatening all life on earth, unless something is done >> soon. This artic methane-release connection is a >> ticking-time-bomb, and if genius-level people like Mills >> cannot appreciate that, then our grandchildren, and his, >> will have no real future, maybe even no survival. [snip] Jones, you are no slouch yourself. Why not give Mills a hand, and do your own hydrino reactor design, and send it to him, no strings attached? [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 23 23:20:53 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1O7KfC9016001; Wed, 23 Feb 2005 23:20:42 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1O7KdxX015981; Wed, 23 Feb 2005 23:20:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 23:20:39 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Incredible battery and TOE Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 18:20:30 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <007301c5184f$b65c1c20$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> <03e301c51867$93108a40$0958ccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <6.2.0.14.2.20050222182628.02b4f0f0@pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050222182628.02b4f0f0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j1O7KaC9015945 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58014 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jed Rothwell's message of Tue, 22 Feb 2005 18:34:20 -0500: Hi, [snip] >Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > >>Not at all, and that isn't what I said. This technology is conservatively >>worth trillions. JB suggested that it be taken by the government, and >>Mills be paid what it's worth. I am simply pointing out that no one has >>ever paid trillions for a technology. When the amount gets that high, the >>technology is simply stolen, the theft swept under the rug, and obscured >>by legal niceties. > >I disagree. [snip] >Airplanes are another major technology that was patented. The first patent >held up, and so did subsequent patents filed by others. In 1917, to promote >wartime production, the government stepped in and forced all patent holders >to accept a standard fee, so that any manufacturer could get free access to >the technology. I imagine something similar would happen with the Mills device. ...and how does that differ from "When the amount gets that high, the technology is simply stolen, the theft swept under the rug, and obscured by legal niceties." ? In this case, the theft is in the word "forced" and the legal niceties being "accept a standard fee". What it boils down to, is that when the need is great, society simply takes what it wants. I can see the same thing happening as a consequence of global warming. [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 24 01:27:51 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1O9RfC9022218; Thu, 24 Feb 2005 01:27:42 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1O9RdB1022205; Thu, 24 Feb 2005 01:27:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 01:27:39 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 03:27:44 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: RE: Practical application for BLP technology Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58015 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Keith Nagel responded; >Hi Thomas, > >you write: >>I find it odd that BLP ignored me. > >Why? Can you explain to the rest of us why you think >he should take your offer seriously? You don't know who I am, I might be talking to an established company with a group of wealthy investors. > Have you ever >done any contract work for the military? No and as I understand it, compliance with their byzantine regulations is a full time job for at least one person > Do you have >sufficient money and experience to run a start up? No, I'm a broker, my hobby is finding new technology that has economic potential. The amount of capital would have to be figured out when writing the business plan. >When you write, >"I suggested using hydrinos to harden the interior > of cannon barrels." do you have any idea how you >would actually apply the described technology to >achieve your stated result? No, but neither has anyone else. We have lots of engineers here who are looking for work. Then Harry Veeder posted; Unlike the emergence of modern science, I don't think the emerging post-modern science is looking for affirmation from the military. ;-) You seem to feel that there is something dirty about making sure that the people who are defending me have the very best equipment available. I don't. Getting back to my original comment about finding Randall's behavior odd. When it comes to practical applications, this is as simple as it gets. It solves a problem that I know the military is having, and one of the claims on the website was super hard steel. Is it cost effective? I have no idea. But that's not what really bothers me about this. About two years ago they had a picture of a three necked flask with a beautiful purple glow in it. They said that is was producing so many watts per CC, it was the equivalent of an internal combustion engine. If they had a reactor that would produce that much energy, don't you think that they would be marketing it? Maybe I'm being a cynic, but I smell BS. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 24 01:28:17 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1O9S2C9022436; Thu, 24 Feb 2005 01:28:02 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1O9RxL1022400; Thu, 24 Feb 2005 01:27:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 01:27:59 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 03:28:12 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: my article on two energy solutions Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58016 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I wrote an article on the DOE's hot fusion project and LENR, which was published on the Minnesota Sentinel's website. http://www.mnsentinel.org/Articles/ThomasMalloy/energysolutions.html From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 24 01:40:13 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1O9e2C9026073; Thu, 24 Feb 2005 01:40:02 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1O9e0cq026045; Thu, 24 Feb 2005 01:40:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 01:40:00 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: US advantage in technology slips away X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: ID = 7b84137320e539ae3bcf255acd0b8dbd Reply-To: michael.foster excite.com From: "Michael Foster" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: michael.foster excite.com X-Mailer: PHP Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050224093952.C8A943DBD xprdmailfe6.nwk.excite.com> Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 04:39:52 -0500 (EST) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58017 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed wrote; > "China now graduates four times as many engineers as the United States, > while the European Union countries graduate three times as many. At the > same time, the US lead is slipping in technology patents and science and > engineering doctoral degrees. Emerging nations are also becoming adept at > capitalizing on technologies invented in the developed world." > As teenagers say: Well, duh. Well, duh, indeed. Don't you want to know why? And no, it's not the ineffectual and badly aimed Homeland Security Act. It's lawyers. In order to have a market for engineers, you have to make something. In order to make something you need a factory. And as we all have come to learn, that's just not nice. We have read for more than a hundred years now in the popular press how evil industry and industrialists are. So-called environmentalists have come to use the word "industry" as an epithet. Naturally, any corporation or individual who actually makes something should be sued for something, anything. And since that is usually what happens, there are fewer manufacturers and hence a dwindling demand for engineers. Furthermore, engineers are often underemployed, can't get paid what they're worth. Lawyers are getting all the money and engineers aren't. I currently employ three engineers (chemical, mechanical, electrical) in jobs that don't require their skills just because they can't get employment in their chosen fields. My son goes to a public (state school, for you Brits) elementary school with very high academic standards, quite unusual for the Los Angeles Unified School District, but not too surprising when you consider that there probably isn't a house in the neighborhood worth less than $2 million. I would estimate that, except for a sprinkling of actors and other entertainment types, at least 80% of the parents are lawyers. Both parents. When I meet these creatures in a social situation, I just have to bite my tongue. "Hello, I'm little Diana's father, Bob, and this is my wife, Judge Martha. What law firm are you with?" I'm not exaggerating. I just want to explode. When these folks learn that I actually make things and sell them for a living, they just look mortified. I can't help but wonder when I'm in a room full of these lying vile snakes, how many jobs they've destroyed, how many lives they've ruined. And they look so nice, so proper, so upstanding. In the last 20 years, most of the suppliers I buy raw materials from have been sued out of business, and I am now forced to buy from foreign companies. At one time, I was willing to pay more, within reason, for domestic supply, but now that option has been removed. And for those of you Vorts from the Michael Moore, Ted Rall end of the political spectrum, who continue to insult and offend those who may not agree with you, consider the following. Three or four years ago, in the Los Angeles Times, the president of the California Trial Lawyers Ass'n was quoted as saying, "We own the Democratic Party, it's ours." This was a public statement, not some back room comment. They are ostensibly quite proud of this. You know, it might be a good idea not to alienate potential allies in the quest for alternate sources of energy, just because you disagree with them politically. M. _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 24 01:41:31 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1O9fGC9026497; Thu, 24 Feb 2005 01:41:17 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1O9fFHg026478; Thu, 24 Feb 2005 01:41:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 01:41:15 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 04:38:11 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: Practical application for BLP technology In-reply-to: To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: <1i4u1.A.mdG.6EaHCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58018 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: thomas malloy at temalloy metro.lakes.com wrote: > Keith Nagel responded; > >> Hi Thomas, >> >> you write: >>> I find it odd that BLP ignored me. >> >> Why? Can you explain to the rest of us why you think >> he should take your offer seriously? > > You don't know who I am, I might be talking to an established company > with a group of wealthy investors. > >> Have you ever >> done any contract work for the military? > > No and as I understand it, compliance with their byzantine > regulations is a full time job for at least one person > >> Do you have >> sufficient money and experience to run a start up? > > No, I'm a broker, my hobby is finding new technology that has > economic potential. The amount of capital would have to be figured > out when writing the business plan. > >> When you write, >> "I suggested using hydrinos to harden the interior >> of cannon barrels." do you have any idea how you >> would actually apply the described technology to >> achieve your stated result? > > No, but neither has anyone else. We have lots of engineers here who > are looking for work. > > Then Harry Veeder posted; > > Unlike the emergence of modern science, I don't think the emerging > post-modern science is looking for affirmation from the military. ;-) > > You seem to feel that there is something dirty about making sure that > the people who are defending me have the very best equipment > available. I don't. Killing and destroying are not sterile. Harry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 24 03:02:38 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1OB2EC9021465; Thu, 24 Feb 2005 03:02:15 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1OB2CsG021440; Thu, 24 Feb 2005 03:02:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 03:02:12 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=cs7xLa06QfhubP9S8G7wwKmonxFTSm/+ydbQwl6S+AtdKhHS5gGiT/XTV29yw/3n; Message-ID: <410-22005242410137410 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Explosive Antimony, What The Heck is Going On? Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 04:01:37 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940b2f7eb14f8695d5f2e9be0a5573a16ea350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58019 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII http://www.lateralscience.co.uk/Fluorine/exant.html http://www.lateralscience.co.uk/Fluorine/Sb.html " Yellow or alpha-antimony is formed when antimony hydride SbH3 is treated with ozonized O2 at - 90 C: 4 SbH3 + 3 O2 <---> 4 Sb + 6 H2O. This passes to black antimony on exposure to light. It is not clear whether or not black antimony is an intermediate form between alpha and beta-antimony. The metastable variety is said to be made by the rapid cooling of antimony vapour. Under these conditions an amorphous black powder is obtained with a specific gravity 5.3. This variety slowly passes into rhombohedral antimony at 100 degrees and rapidly at 400 degrees Gore (1855) found that if a current of electricity is passed through a solution of antimony trichloride in hydrochloric acid---using an antimony anode, and a platinum cathode---an amorphous powder of specific gravity of 5.78 is deposited on the cathode. The cathode has the appearance of a smooth polished graphite rod. The deposit appears to be solid solution of antimony trichloride in metastable alpha-antimony. If this deposit be rubbed or scratched, an explosion occurs The explosion is attended by the allotropic transformation of then metastable or alpha-form of antimony into the stable beta-form or the rhombohedral variety, at the same time the temperature rises to about 250 degrees C, and 19,600 calories of heat are evolved per gram of antimony. Clouds of antimony trichloride are given off at the same time. Hence the term Explosive Antimony is given to a solid solution( 4 to 12 percent ) of the trihalide in alpha-antimony." The heat of combustion of H2 + 1/2 O2 is 54,000 calories per mole (18 grams) , or 3.000 calories per gram The 19,600 calories per gram released by Explosive Antimony is over 6 times this. What role does Hydrogen play at the cathode, during electrolysis? LENR-CANR Connection? Hydrinos too? Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

 
 
" Yellow or alpha-antimony is formed when antimony hydride SbH3 is treated with ozonized O2
at - 90 C: 4 SbH3 + 3 O2 <---> 4 Sb + 6 H2O. This passes to black antimony on exposure to light.
It is not clear whether or not black antimony is an intermediate form between alpha and beta-antimony.
 
The metastable variety is said to be made by the rapid cooling of antimony vapour.
 
Under these conditions an amorphous black powder is obtained with a specific gravity 5.3.
This variety slowly passes into rhombohedral antimony at 100 degrees and rapidly at 400 degrees
 
Gore (1855) found that if a current of electricity is passed through a solution of antimony trichloride
in hydrochloric acid---using an antimony anode, and a platinum cathode---an amorphous powder
of specific gravity of 5.78 is deposited on the cathode. The cathode has the appearance of a smooth
polished graphite rod. The deposit appears to be solid solution of antimony trichloride in metastable alpha-antimony.
If this deposit be rubbed or scratched, an explosion occurs
 
The explosion is attended by the allotropic transformation of then metastable or alpha-form of
antimony into the stable beta-form or the rhombohedral variety, at the same time the temperature rises to
about 250 degrees C, and 19,600 calories of heat are evolved per gram of antimony.
 
Clouds of antimony trichloride are given off at the same time.
Hence the term Explosive Antimony is given to a solid solution( 4 to 12 percent )
of the trihalide in alpha-antimony."
 
The heat of combustion of H2 + 1/2 O2 is 54,000 calories per mole (18 grams) , or 3.000 calories per gram
 
The 19,600 calories per gram released by Explosive Antimony is over 6 times this.
 
What role does Hydrogen play at the cathode, during electrolysis?
 
LENR-CANR Connection?   Hydrinos too?
 
Frederick
 
 
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 24 03:02:41 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1OB2PC9021533; Thu, 24 Feb 2005 03:02:25 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1OB2NIQ021508; Thu, 24 Feb 2005 03:02:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 03:02:23 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050224105831.006b4990 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 10:58:31 +0000 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Higher Order Conservation Laws of Motion. Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58020 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In the very first post of this thread I used two URLs from TinyURL.com pointing to a couple of diagrams on my Beta-atmosphere Yahoo web-site. Though I tested them and they worked originally, it would appear that Yahoo have a dynamic system for referring to their group files and consequently the TINY URL's work no longer. I apologise to any Vortexians who might have been frustrated by this dock-up and I have now put the diagrams on my own web site. I have copied the original post below together with the updated URLs. Cheers Frank Grimer =========================================================== At 07:20 pm 22-02-05 +0000, I wrote: In previous posts the idea of a series of increasing orders of derivatives of length with respect to time has been chewed over. It will be helpful to recapitulate the discussion by using excepts from the Vortex archives. On the subject of imagining what these derivative mean physically, we have. ======================================================== ...Funny you should say that, Richard, because I've been pondering how one could physically visualize high order derivatives of distance with respect to time. dL/dT ......VELOCITY .......moving scenery - no problem d2L/dT2 ....ACCELERATION ...being pushed back in ones seat as the plane takes off - no problem d3L/dt3 ....JERK............Mmm..more difficult - being hit over the head with a bottle perhaps? d4L/dT4 ....JOUNCE..........I have no feeling whatsoever for this or high derivatives. But the failure to visualise these higher order derivative is because I am thinking in terms of straight line motion. If I think instead in terms of circular motion, or better still, helical motions, then things become very much easier. If I allow myself to be pinned to the wall of a fairground centrifuge then I can experience being "pushed back in my seat on a continuous basis. By imposing a circular motion on this circular motion to form an open vortex helix I can visualize the next derivative, though I am well past the age where I would want to experience it - and so on - and so forth. ======================================================== On the topic of visualisation Keith Nagel wrote, ====================================================== Also, you mentioned Jerk and Jounce ( sounds like a b-list rap group ). I've also puzzled over the physical meaning of these terms. It's rather like trying to imagine higher dimensional shapes. One dimension up is about all I can muster, which in this case is Jerk. Standing on a carousel, with the speed increasing and decreasing sinusoidally, ought to do it. Perhaps a better term would be "projectile vomiting" rather than jerk, huh??? (grin). ====================================================== The discussion then wandered off into considering the outcome of experiments with coil-coils and coil-coil.... coils - and a host of other topics - as discussions on Vortex frequently do - which is, of course, one of the delights of the Group. One is not artificially constrained to narrowly keep to the point. 8-) I can now see another way of visualizing the higher order differentials but before doing that I would like to state something I have realised in relation to the conservation laws. We have:- ======================================================= SYMBOL DERIVATIVE PROPERTY CONSERVED dL/dt velocity momentum yes d2L/dt3 acceleration energy yes d3L/dt3 jerk angular acceleration yes d4L/dt4 jounce rate of change Err...? of ang.acc. d5L/dt5 Err...? RoC of RoC Err...? of ang.acc. ....... ..... ........... ....... dnL/dtn ... ======================================================= It has become increasingly clear to me that each derivative is associated with a conservation law of its own. In short there are an indefinitely large numbers of conservation laws of motion. The reason we fail to see this is that we are hag ridden by Cartesian Geometry and its unbounded x, y and z dimensions. The coil-coil...coil visualization discussed previously on Vortex avoided this trap because it implicitly involved upper and lower bounds to the size of the coils. It is interesting to note that the calculus also avoids the Cartesian trap by not associating length with the Cartesian space. The calculus allows us to have any number of independent dimensions since no finite amount of the (n+1)th derivative will give us a nth derivative. In the Cartesian case we can move from x (length) to y (area) to z (volume)- but beyond that we are stuffed. In Keith's post he got as far as the third derivative (angular acceleration) by "Standing on a carousel, with the speed increasing and decreasing sinusoidally,..." but could take it no further. I have now discovered how to generate physical equivalents of d4L/dt4 and all higher derivative motions with devices that anyone who is familiar with the action of gyroscopes can readily visualise and understand. Consider the Mechanism set out in http://www.grimer2.freeserve.co.uk/pge22.htm This is a gyro consisting of an outer ring of 8 gyros. The eight outer ring gyros (2nd order gyros) are free to rotate around their extended axles. These axles are fixed rigidly to the central hub so that the rotating 2nd order gyros are forcibly constrained to follow a circular path when the central hub is rotated. Now I have chosen 8 gyros for pedagogic purposes since it is easy to visualise the solid outer ring of a classic gyro being replaced by multiple small gyros. However, to take the physical example to d4L/dt4 and higher order derivative motions it is easier to think in terms of only a single pair of opposed gyros. A diagrammatic representation of a 7 order device is shown in: http://www.grimer2.freeserve.co.uk/pge23.htm [scan down the page] As you can see, it makes a rather nice Iterative Hierarchical (IH) fractal pattern. The different orders are indicated by different colours. At this point it is worth repeating something from a previous post. Cartesian geometry as taught at school is a mathematical abstraction. It can't be applied willy-nilly to the real world. In that world real things have upper and lower bounds so one must use an x, y, and z geometry which also has upper and lower bounds. This means that we can nest as many spaces as we like in the manner of Russian dolls or Chinese boxes. In this case the upper and lower bounds of IH orders are quite obvious if you think about it. A gyro of the nth order is bounded in size by the gyros of the (n+1)th and the (n-1)th orders. Likewise with every other order. It's precisely the same situation as with the "coiled-coiled-coiled-........coil" mentioned in a previous post. Like the different order of gyros, each different order of coils implicitly has an upper and lower bound since a coil cannot be smaller than twice the diameter of the wire, nor larger than the next coil up the pecking order. Interestingly enough the IH fractal can be seen as an attenuated version of the turbulent structure of water. In the words of the poet, ------------------------------------- Big whorls have little whorls That feed on their velocity, And little whorls have lesser whorls And so on to viscosity. - Lewis F. Richardson - ------------------------------------- And the power laws discovered for water vapour are no doubt a reflection of their fractal dynamic structure. ========================================================= From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 24 07:01:34 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1OF1IC9012750; Thu, 24 Feb 2005 07:01:19 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1OF1G0G012731; Thu, 24 Feb 2005 07:01:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 07:01:16 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050224095815.02b2e428 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 10:01:01 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Notes from Scientific American In-Reply-To: <20050223200157.8819.qmail web51710.mail.yahoo.com> References: <421C9D76.7050601 pobox.com> <20050223200157.8819.qmail web51710.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_1697468==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58021 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_1697468==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Terry Blanton recommended: >http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-speciation.html That's great! I love this part: ". . . experimentally showing that A doesn't interbreed with B doesn't preclude both interbreeding with C. This gets even more complicated in groups that don't have nice, straightforward sexes." I would add: ". . . such as people." What I like about biology is that there are no rules without exceptions. It is much more fun than physics. - Jed --=====================_1697468==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Terry Blanton recommended:

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-speciation.html

That's great! I love this part:

". . . experimentally showing that A doesn't interbreed with B doesn't preclude both interbreeding with C. This gets even more complicated in groups that don't have nice, straightforward sexes."

I would add: ". . . such as people."

What I like about biology is that there are no rules without exceptions. It is much more fun than physics.

- Jed
 --=====================_1697468==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 24 07:30:26 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1OFTrC9023459; Thu, 24 Feb 2005 07:29:54 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1OFTmYA023415; Thu, 24 Feb 2005 07:29:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 07:29:48 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050224102107.02ae8790 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 10:29:22 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Incredible battery and TOE In-Reply-To: References: <007301c5184f$b65c1c20$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> <03e301c51867$93108a40$0958ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> <6.2.0.14.2.20050222182628.02b4f0f0 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_3413812==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58022 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_3413812==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >In 1917, to promote > >wartime production, the government stepped in and forced all patent holders > >to accept a standard fee, so that any manufacturer could get free access to > >the technology. I imagine something similar would happen with the Mills > device. > >...and how does that differ from "When the amount gets that high, the >technology is simply stolen, the theft swept under the rug, and obscured >by legal niceties." ? I do not know the details of the 1917 agreement, but the industry leaders did not complain. Orville Wright was retired from active business by that time, but he would have said something in his authorized biography if that agreement had bothered him. He complained endlessly about the actions of the Smithsonian in the years after the war. (The Wrights were famous for holding a grudge.) The standard fee was moderate, but the number of airplanes being manufactured for the wartime emergency was far higher than anyone ever anticipated. Wright later said that in his wildest imagination he never thought that thousands of airplanes would be manufactured in a single year. His business model, and the model of his competitors, anticipated making a few hundred airplanes a year for rich playboys. It had to be radically revised for mass production. Even in the new regulated environment, people continued to make gobs of money with patents for airplane components and innovations. I do not think you can say the patent rights were "stolen." They were adjusted to fit reality. Mills and his ideas badly need similar adjustments. - Jed --=====================_3413812==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

In 1917, to promote
>wartime production, the government stepped in and forced all patent holders
>to accept a standard fee, so that any manufacturer could get free access to
>the technology. I imagine something similar would happen with the Mills device.

...and how does that differ from "When the amount gets that high, the
technology is simply stolen, the theft swept under the rug, and obscured
by legal niceties." ?

I do not know the details of the 1917 agreement, but the industry leaders did not complain. Orville Wright was retired from active business by that time, but he would have said something in his authorized biography if that agreement had bothered him. He complained endlessly about the actions of the Smithsonian in the years after the war. (The Wrights were famous for holding a grudge.) The standard fee was moderate, but the number of airplanes being manufactured for the wartime emergency was far higher than anyone ever anticipated. Wright later said that in his wildest imagination he never thought that thousands of airplanes would be manufactured in a single year. His business model, and the model of his competitors, anticipated making a few hundred airplanes a year for rich playboys. It had to be radically revised for mass production. Even in the new regulated environment, people continued to make gobs of money with patents for airplane components and innovations. I do not think you can say the patent rights were "stolen." They were adjusted to fit reality. Mills and his ideas badly need similar adjustments.

- Jed
 --=====================_3413812==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 24 08:59:48 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1OGxScB007030; Thu, 24 Feb 2005 08:59:29 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1OGxQ8N007012; Thu, 24 Feb 2005 08:59:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 08:59:26 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000a01c51a92$2e3b6900$0100007f xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: US advantage in technology slips away Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 10:58:33 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0006_01C51A5F.C84D6DA0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-98.9 required=4.0 tests=HTML_20_30,HTML_MESSAGE, J_CHICKENPOX_14,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58023 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C51A5F.C84D6DA0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0007_01C51A5F.C84EF440" ------=_NextPart_001_0007_01C51A5F.C84EF440 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankMichael Foster's post regarding lawyers would be amusing were it = not for the truth of his observation. Meanwhile, back in Texas, where no man's life nor property is safe when = the legislature is in session, the lawmakers are addressing the rabble's = clamor for an " ethics" bill. How do you suppose the "leg" proposes to = do this? Why, write a bill that permits politicians in Texas to = accept " charitable " contributions from " non profits".=20 Why heck !!! anybody can see that, as Mark Twain wrote.. h'aint all the = fools in town on our side, and h'aint that enough for any town. Looking at the alloy steel we purchased since fall of last year. Not ONE = mill test report lists a US mill. Over the past 3 years alloy stainless = steel 316L has risen in price from $ 1.60 lb to 4.40. Certain types like = 2" sch 160 pipe has risen from $ 2.40 lb to 10.50 lb with extended = delivery. Mill depots across the US are NOT stocking materials as = before. Titanium and Hastelloy and exotic alloys have quadrupled and = certain sizes are no longer available. Interesting article byTom Friedman " out of our hands: where to buck = really stops" in today's paper is right on! Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0007_01C51A5F.C84EF440 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Michael Foster's post regarding lawyers would = be amusing=20 were it not for the truth of his observation.
 
Meanwhile, back in Texas, where no man's life = nor=20 property is safe when the legislature is in session, the lawmakers are=20 addressing the rabble's clamor for an " ethics" bill. How do you suppose = the=20 "leg" proposes to do this?       Why, = write a bill=20 that permits politicians in Texas to accept " charitable " contributions = from "=20 non profits".
Why heck !!! anybody can see that, as Mark = Twain wrote..=20 h'aint all the fools in town on our side, and h'aint that enough for any = town.
 
Looking at the alloy steel we purchased since = fall of=20 last year. Not ONE mill test report lists a US mill. Over the past 3 = years alloy=20 stainless steel 316L has risen in price from $ 1.60 lb to 4.40. Certain = types=20 like 2" sch 160 pipe has risen from $ 2.40 lb to 10.50 lb with extended=20 delivery. Mill depots across the US are NOT stocking materials as = before.=20 Titanium and Hastelloy and exotic alloys have quadrupled and certain = sizes are=20 no longer available.
 
Interesting article byTom Friedman " out of = our hands:=20 where to buck really stops" in today's paper is right on!
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_0007_01C51A5F.C84EF440-- ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C51A5F.C84D6DA0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000501c51a92$12e03c80$0100007f xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C51A5F.C84D6DA0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 24 09:27:45 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1OHRIcB018294; Thu, 24 Feb 2005 09:27:18 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1OHRFlJ018245; Thu, 24 Feb 2005 09:27:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 09:27:15 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <003f01c51a95$34b5b4e0$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <007301c5184f$b65c1c20$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> <03e301c51867$93108a40$0958ccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <025c01c51878$76f5f5a0$d0bcfea9@jonesb9pacbell> <043901c518fe$dae4e180$0958ccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> Subject: Re: Incredible battery and TOE Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 09:20:57 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: <7vKZuC.A.2cE.y5gHCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58024 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robin van Spaandonk" > Jones, you are no slouch yourself. Why not give Mills a hand, and do your own hydrino reactor design, and send it to him, no strings attached? I would be happy to do this, if he would provide some detail about the rate of hydrino formation for the highly shrunken variety, using the "wet" Thermacore process. The highest and best use for hydrinos, IF they do undergo shrinkage to 1/137 or thereabouts would certainly be as makeup "neutrons" in subcritical scheme. I'm sure you recognize this, and at some level Mills must also, but publicly he has marginalized full-shrinkage because of the obvious jeopardy to his marketing goals. In fact, the best reason - that anyone knowledgeable about the circumstances can suggest - as to why the Thermacore technique did not "go commercial" relates to nuclear activation of the reactor. This problem is actually *to be expected* for the "wet process," and is likely why Mills abandoned such - but that problem can be made into an BIG advantage in fission, especially using heavy water and electrodes of zirconium or graphite. It is only common sense, once you remove the layers of rhetoric, political maneuvering and double-talk... inasmuch as the neutron multiplication ratio for even a modest size piece of fully reflected uranium carbide is over 100:1 and the energy available per fission is over 200 MeV. Consequently, for every shrunken hydrino, one can get 20 GeV instead of a total of about 1 MeV or a whopping 20,000-to-one ratio per hydrino for energy multiplication using fission. It's a no-brainer. I have mentioned this more than once on vortex. You are the only one who openly recognizes this potential, other than possible employees of BLP who aren't talking... and possibly a few clever bureaucrats in Asia or Europe. But it is impossible to proceed on a subcritical fission design without important details on the rate of shrinkage, etc. and Mills has offered no help, and it seems clear from Mike's recent post, that Mills will NOT be inclined to ever offer any evidence, not the least bit it seems, which would suggest to the NRC or the Sierra Club that the reaction is ultimately nuclear; nor that it can and should be used as an adjunct to a nuclear fission scheme. This is a *political decision,* on his part, especially in the US. Fortunately, he may not have the last word on this implementation. As mentioned earlier, there is a strong and broad WPO patent issued to Arie de Geuss which precedes Mills and would have worldwide precedence for fission implementation, should anyone want to attempt it - which is for hydrino formation using Lithium or Be as catalyst. And 7Li or Be are the only catalysts which makes sense for use in fission reactor, using a heavy water 'wet electrolysis' process. According to de Geuss's paper, either of them produce hydrinos, but can his research be trusted? He is a loner without resources, and has not been heard from recently. Like Mills, he claims independent verification of hydrinos. Mills does not even acknowledge his existence. Unlike 6Li, the heavier isotope of lithium has a low cross-section for thermal neutrons and is a waste product of weaponry, and 'could be' obtained cheaply in certain regions. Beryllium is not cheap. If you are a nation, such as China, India, South Africa, Russia or France with both a nuclear weapons program and a nuclear power industry, then 7Li is perfect and it can be used in a heavy water based wet electrochemical reaction, ala the Thermacore process (which uses potassium - but K is not suitable for use in a reactor core). Perhaps someone in Europe or Asia will license from de Geuss and by-pass Mills and go for the fission implementation. Perhaps you should promote this for Australia. Perhaps de Geuss will give up and let his patent lapse. In any case, someone outside the US should; and probably will try to do this eventually. It would be right "down the alley" for Mitsubishi, for instance, except for the extraneous financial problems which they are having. Once again, it seems the US is poised to loose a technological lead that it could have enjoyed, had not extraneous political considerations entered into the picture. I see another post coming through now from Richard with the same conclusion. Hey isn't Wi-Fi great? I'm doing this posting totally wireless while enjoying a cafe latte and lots of highly caffeinated chatter. The US does have "magic" technology, the only problem is, we also have politicians who have other concerns than the long-term welfare of the average worker, who do need some of the manufacturing jobs we are exporting, some of which pay less than barista here makes, but that is a short -sighted decision based on "paper" value... which costs Sam almost nothing to print. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 24 09:50:51 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1OHoCcB028582; Thu, 24 Feb 2005 09:50:13 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1OHo3pS028517; Thu, 24 Feb 2005 09:50:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 09:50:03 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Explosive Antimony, What The Heck is Going On? X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: ID = 909b8a8ff0cae19159d456a4b333f05c Reply-To: michael.foster excite.com From: "Michael Foster" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: michael.foster excite.com X-Mailer: PHP Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050224174945.BBF0DB72C xprdmailfe15.nwk.excite.com> Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 12:49:45 -0500 (EST) Resent-Message-ID: <0UpxFC.A.K9G.HPhHCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58025 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --- On Thu 02/24, Frederick Sparber < fjsparber earthlink.net > wrote: > Clouds of antimony trichloride are given off at the same time. > Hence the term Explosive Antimony is given to a solid solution( 4 to 12 > percent )of the trihalide in alpha-antimony." > The heat of combustion of H2 + 1/2 O2 is 54,000 calories per mole > (18 grams) , or 3.000 calories per gram. > The 19,600 calories per gram released by Explosive Antimony is > over 6 times this. > What role does Hydrogen play at the cathode, during electrolysis? > LENR-CANR Connection? Hydrinos too? Good question. Of course, we don't know if this is O/U as there is no data on the current used to deposit the antimony on the cathode. For those of you who read the stuff on the lateralscience site and are wondering what plumbago is, it's the archaic name for graphite. Antimony and it various allotropes have an interesting history. Making the "Star Regulus of Antimony" a stellated crytalline allotrope, was apparently a graduation project for alchemists before going on the the serious work of transmuting base metals into gold. Isaac Newton spent a lot of time messing around with this stuff. See: http://www.levity.com/alchemy/markh_1.html M. _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 24 10:54:04 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1OIrYcB003043; Thu, 24 Feb 2005 10:53:34 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1OIrV8E003020; Thu, 24 Feb 2005 10:53:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 10:53:31 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <421E229A.2070408 haikolietz.de> Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 19:53:14 +0100 From: Haiko Lietz User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.5) Gecko/20041217 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: France and Belgium to study transmutation References: <421C9D76.7050601 pobox.com> <20050223200157.8819.qmail@web51710.mail.yahoo.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050224095815.02b2e428@pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050224095815.02b2e428 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58026 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear all, "France and Belgium to study transmutation (...) opening the door to a new treatment for radioactive waste." http://www.neimagazine.com/story.asp?sectioncode=132&storyCode=2026967 I think it's interesting that they're now also working on nuclear waste remediation with conventional methods. Does anybody have information about the process they use? I don't understand it from reading these words. Best Haiko From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 24 10:57:59 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1OIvNcB005284; Thu, 24 Feb 2005 10:57:27 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1OIvJtC005234; Thu, 24 Feb 2005 10:57:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 10:57:19 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050224135443.02b9aa58 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 13:56:59 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: DoE LIES AGAIN!!! -- LENR-CANR goes postal Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_15855328==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: <9jVvdD.A.nRB.OOiHCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58027 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --=====================_15855328==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed See: http://lenr-canr.org/ Ed said he wanted BOLD inflammatory headlines of this is what we came up with. This is a break with our New York Times style of presentation. - Jed --=====================_15855328==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" See:

http://lenr-canr.org/

Ed said he wanted BOLD inflammatory headlines of this is what we came up with. This is a break with our New York Times style of presentation.

- Jed
 --=====================_15855328==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 24 11:02:58 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1OJ2HcB008639; Thu, 24 Feb 2005 11:02:18 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1OJ2EUr008577; Thu, 24 Feb 2005 11:02:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 11:02:14 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: <3eb09435-d3a6-4f47-9e78-626c20e7019a> Message-ID: <002101c51aa3$4217e1e0$9c7cccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <007301c5184f$b65c1c20$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> <03e301c51867$93108a40$0958ccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <025c01c51878$76f5f5a0$d0bcfea9@jonesb9pacbell> <043901c518fe$dae4e180$0958ccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> Subject: Re: Incredible battery and TOE Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 08:58:25 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58028 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin wrote: > In reply to Mike Carrell's message of Tue, 22 Feb 2005 11:28:11 -0500: > Hi, > [snip] > >factor in LENR. That may be so, but it is not useful. Mills has reported > >seeing emission lines he associates with p = 7 hydrinos, and maybe p =16, > >but I suspect the population is small. Mills has enough problems with the > >technology he is studying without dissipating his efforts with CF, LENR and > >CANR. > > Far from dissipating his efforts, such an approach may just be his saving grace. First, the average nuclear reaction is going to yield about 1000 times the energy (~ 1 MeV) of his best average hydrino yield (i.e. ~1000 eV/ hydrino). Second, the high energy ionising radiation likely to result from a nuclear reaction can create thousands of catalysts ions from each nuclear reaction. That may be just what is needed to close the gap between commercial and non-commercial. The whole thing can still be a clean reactor, if the primary nuclear reaction creates alpha particles. In the above paragraph, it is true that nuclear reactions (fusion, as in LENR) produce more energy *per atom* than does BLP, but the problem in LENR cells is for enough atoms to fuse; the necessary conditions are still very obscure. High ionizing energy makes hot fusion dangerous, equipment expensive, and not for domenstic use, and the NRC on your neck. It is a feature of LENR that this does not occur. In BLP's microwave reactors, the catalyst gas is very throroughly ionized -- and safely --. The probem is getting the catalyst ions and the H atoms within reaction distance in the low pressure conditions. Don't suggest high pressure, for there are competing reactions. Also don't think that Mills and his staff are stupid in this matter. It is very complex. > > Without nuclear reactions, he must depend on hydrino reactions themselves creating sufficient ions to catalyze further reactions. That is probably currently his main problem. IOW making the reaction self sustaining. > [snip] Yes, that is part of the problem. You are confusing two matters. 1) There are the reactions of H atoms with primary catalysts, producing hydrinos, and 2) reactions between hydrinos themselves, which can catalyze each other, in which one hydrino goes to a lower state and the other to a higher state. These happen in at about 1/1000 atmosphertic pressure as random encounters. There may be ways to increase the density of these encounters, but I think such are well beyond the present resources of BLP to develop. > >"authorities" as you well know. So if you are CEO of a potential partner are > >you going to sink big bucks into a project which may not scale up easily and > >may have serious problems, like requiring ultra pure reagents to work? > > Of course, if this is used as a path to fusion, then the fuel requirements will be relatively speaking so low, that ultra-purity would be no problem. The "path to fusion" is spectulation generated within Vortex and HSG. In the LENR plasma electrolysis experiments with light water and potassium carbonate electrolyte, it is conceivable that BLP reactions occur between H atoms and K+ and K+++ and O++ ions, all of which may exist there. Mills' first experiments were an electrolytic cell using potassium carbonate and light water. There is also evidence of nuclear activity in such cells by reports of erosionof a tungsten cathode. Both may be happening, and it is very interesting, and puzzling, for D is not used. There is much to be learned here, but controlling it all and commercial development are a very long road. > However I doubt that ultra purity really is a problem in the first place. In fact I suspect that quite the opposite is true, it may work better if its dirtier (i.e. lots of different elements thrown in). I don't know for sure; I just used the pure reagents as an illustration of possible surprises. But it definitely does not follow that contaminants are good. When you have a mix of unknowns, you multiply the things that can go wrong. We are dealing with a kind of chemistry, and when you mix ingredients in chemistry, everything that can happen will happen and the jog of the chemical engineer is to maximize what you want and filter out the rest. > [snip] > JB: > >> If it requires BLP to use deuterium, then you bite the > >> bullet and use deuterium. If it requires you to deal with > >> the NRC, then you deal with the NRC. It is as simple as > >> that. He has been using nuclear materials, and dealing with > >> NRC in his medical research for 20 years. This no-NRC excuse > >> is a big pile of stinking crapola, IMHO. > > It probably doesn't actually. The dependence of fusion time on separation distance is so strong that hydrinos should be able to make a reality of reactions such as Li7 + H -> 2 He4, and B11 + H -> 3 He4. Furthermore this dependence is largely concentrated at the high end of the distance, i.e. one doesn't need much reduction to get a large improvement. So you are proposing that hydrinos will carry protons to Li nuclei? How? You have the same problem as in all LENR: how to get past the Coulomb barrier. You first have to produce lots of hydrinos. > [snip] > >water. The last time I talked to Mills, several years ago, he said he was > >about a factor of 4 away from a closed loop. > > ...and a 1000 fold improvement from fusion would put him over the top by a factor of 250. > [snip] How? Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 24 11:06:31 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1OJ5xcB011060; Thu, 24 Feb 2005 11:05:59 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1OJ5s03011023; Thu, 24 Feb 2005 11:05:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 11:05:54 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050224140421.02ae8cb0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 14:05:18 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: DoE LIES AGAIN!!! -- LENR-CANR goes postal Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_16374125==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58029 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --=====================_16374125==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed That was supposed to say: Ed said he wanted BOLD inflammatory headlines *and* this is what we came up with. ! #%$ voice input. - Jed --=====================_16374125==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" That was supposed to say:

Ed said he wanted BOLD inflammatory headlines *and* this is what we came up with.

! #%$ voice input.

- Jed
 --=====================_16374125==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 24 11:21:08 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1OJKrcB017823; Thu, 24 Feb 2005 11:20:54 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1OJKpGI017790; Thu, 24 Feb 2005 11:20:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 11:20:51 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: "Vortex" Subject: RE: Explosive Antimony, What The Heck is Going On? Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 14:21:57 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <410-22005242410137410 earthlink.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58030 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hey Fred, That website you posted is very entertaining! I have a small collection of ancient chemistry and "recipe" books, always great fun to read. The exploding antimony thing was explained to me as being due to the energy stored in the electroforming process; but your speculation is provocative. I've never tried this experiment, can someone who has tell us the impedence relation so we can calculate the input energy? I suppose we could use 2 volts as an upper limit if the process is reasonably efficient, but I remember the guy who told me about this suggested that it took several days to build up a substantial quantity of the allotrope. From that I gather that the voltage very quickly gets over the water breakdown voltage? K. -----Original Message----- From: Frederick Sparber [mailto:fjsparber earthlink.net] Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2005 5:02 AM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Explosive Antimony, What The Heck is Going On? http://www.lateralscience.co.uk/Fluorine/exant.html http://www.lateralscience.co.uk/Fluorine/Sb.html " Yellow or alpha-antimony is formed when antimony hydride SbH3 is treated with ozonized O2 at - 90 C: 4 SbH3 + 3 O2 <---> 4 Sb + 6 H2O. This passes to black antimony on exposure to light. It is not clear whether or not black antimony is an intermediate form between alpha and beta-antimony. The metastable variety is said to be made by the rapid cooling of antimony vapour. Under these conditions an amorphous black powder is obtained with a specific gravity 5.3. This variety slowly passes into rhombohedral antimony at 100 degrees and rapidly at 400 degrees Gore (1855) found that if a current of electricity is passed through a solution of antimony trichloride in hydrochloric acid---using an antimony anode, and a platinum cathode---an amorphous powder of specific gravity of 5.78 is deposited on the cathode. The cathode has the appearance of a smooth polished graphite rod. The deposit appears to be solid solution of antimony trichloride in metastable alpha-antimony. If this deposit be rubbed or scratched, an explosion occurs The explosion is attended by the allotropic transformation of then metastable or alpha-form of antimony into the stable beta-form or the rhombohedral variety, at the same time the temperature rises to about 250 degrees C, and 19,600 calories of heat are evolved per gram of antimony. Clouds of antimony trichloride are given off at the same time. Hence the term Explosive Antimony is given to a solid solution( 4 to 12 percent ) of the trihalide in alpha-antimony." The heat of combustion of H2 + 1/2 O2 is 54,000 calories per mole (18 grams) , or 3.000 calories per gram The 19,600 calories per gram released by Explosive Antimony is over 6 times this. What role does Hydrogen play at the cathode, during electrolysis? LENR-CANR Connection? Hydrinos too? Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 24 11:32:07 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1OJVecB021707; Thu, 24 Feb 2005 11:31:40 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1OJVbia021687; Thu, 24 Feb 2005 11:31:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 11:31:37 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Practical application for BLP technology Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 14:32:45 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58031 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Thomas, you write: >You don't know who I am, I might be talking to an established company >with a group of wealthy investors. Well this is your opportunity to impress us. If you are representing an established company, tell us the name of the company. Basic due dilligence would require at least that much; right now the only organization I can find you connected with is these folks, http://www.nazareneisrael.org/fellowships.asp not a hotbed of technology development... For a benchmark, consider Mark Goldes. He does exactly what you claim, and certainly isn't shy about promoting Magnetic Power Inc. So tell us more about the company you represent, and what it does. K. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 24 11:32:17 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1OJW0cB021887; Thu, 24 Feb 2005 11:32:00 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1OJVvIH021844; Thu, 24 Feb 2005 11:31:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 11:31:57 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: <93a45fa2-0f66-4f57-ba16-add923f1826e> Message-ID: <004601c51aa7$796bdda0$9c7cccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: Subject: Re: Practical application for BLP technology Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 14:11:14 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58032 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Harry wrote: > > No, I'm a broker, my hobby is finding new technology that has > > economic potential. The amount of capital would have to be figured > > out when writing the business plan. > > > >> When you write, > >> "I suggested using hydrinos to harden the interior > >> of cannon barrels." do you have any idea how you > >> would actually apply the described technology to > >> achieve your stated result? > > > > No, but neither has anyone else. We have lots of engineers here who > > are looking for work. Broker vaporware at it best. Totally disconnected from the reality of BLP technology at the moment, or in the foreseeable future. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 24 11:41:26 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1OJfCcB026089; Thu, 24 Feb 2005 11:41:12 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1OJf9ge026063; Thu, 24 Feb 2005 11:41:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 11:41:09 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <421E2E4B.2030803 ix.netcom.com> Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 12:43:07 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: France and Belgium to study transmutation References: <421C9D76.7050601 pobox.com> <20050223200157.8819.qmail@web51710.mail.yahoo.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050224095815.02b2e428@pop.mindspring.com> <421E229A.2070408@haikolietz.de> In-Reply-To: <421E229A.2070408 haikolietz.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58033 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Haiko, The process involves the generation of neutrons using an accelerator. These neutrons are applied to the nuclear waste in the hope that isotopes are generated having a shorter half-life than the original nuclear waste. The accelerator would generate neutrons having an energy for which the target isotope has a high cross-section for reaction. This might work for a few elements, but is a desperate and expensive way to get rid of radioactivity. If course, the apparatus will be activated by stray neutrons so that the process will have to be done remotely. Consequently, one problem will be solved while creating several more, which seems to be the universal approach used these days. Regards, Ed Haiko Lietz wrote: > Dear all, > > "France and Belgium to study transmutation (...) opening the door to a > new treatment for radioactive waste." > > http://www.neimagazine.com/story.asp?sectioncode=132&storyCode=2026967 > > I think it's interesting that they're now also working on nuclear waste > remediation with conventional methods. Does anybody have information > about the process they use? I don't understand it from reading these words. > > Best > > Haiko > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 24 11:42:46 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1OJgEcB026525; Thu, 24 Feb 2005 11:42:14 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1OJgCT6026498; Thu, 24 Feb 2005 11:42:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 11:42:12 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: <4d9c428d-0177-4f82-9c70-eb70a72fd3c3> Message-ID: <004d01c51aa8$e5703090$9c7cccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: Subject: Re: Practical application for BLP technology Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 14:41:03 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58034 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Tom wrote: > > But that's not what really bothers me about this. About two years > ago they had a picture of a three necked flask with a beautiful > purple glow in it. Images of the thermal reactor are still available on the 'Cell' page of the website. >They said that is was producing so many watts per > CC, it was the equivalent of an internal combustion engine. No, not that reactor. The claim for energy density equivalent to an IC engine was made for the reactor using microwave ionization of a rarefied mixture of H and He gases. The volume of the reaction space was about 3 cc, and the claim based on estimates of the total energy output based on some rough calorimetry estimates. Variations on that rector have been used in an umber of experiments, including the water bath calorimetry by the BLP team and by Phillips & Chen at the University of New Mexico. For one particular run, the energy vield from the hydrogen fuel was calcuated to be 100X that of combustionof the same hydrogen. > If they > had a reactor that would produce that much energy, don't you think > that they would be marketing it? Maybe I'm being a cynic, but I smell > BS. And I smell a lack of careful study and understanding of the experiments, which were well described on the website. Every report is not a tutorial, and one has to have some background in physics to understand what is plainly written and its implications. I will try to summarize "why they are not marketing it" in the sense Tom wants, but I am quite certain they are earnestly promoting it to major corporations with the money to develop and market devices. The reaction took place in a 3cc volume of gas at about 1/1000 atmospheric pressure. The gas was a mixture of 95% He and 5% H2, flowing slowly through the reaction zone. The primary energy output from the reaction is deep ultraviolet light, which is not directly much use for energy production. The UV is absorbed by the quartx reactor tube, which gets hot --- inside the microwave cavity. It isn't easy to couple that heat to the outside world without redesigning the cavity, a separate engineering project. It isn't obvious that making it 10 times as big will help; scaleup has to be done in small steps. There was a lot of support equipment: a laboratory microwave generator, a vacuum pump, gas tanks, instruments, etc. Energy density is not power output. If you want kilowatts, you might need dozens of small reactors, microwave cavities, etc. That's not very marketable. Further, the catalyst is He, a gas in limited supply, which in the laboratory test is simply wasted, escaping back into the atmosphere. in a commercial system this could not be tolerated, so you have to a) collect the resultant hydrinos, a valuable chemical, and conserve the He catalysit, which is not simple at all. The microwave reactor has been shown to work with plain H2O as a source of H and O++, a catalyst, so in principle one could afford to let it flow out of the system. However, with tap or pond or ocean water, contaminants may kill the reaction, s you have to first purify or distill it, taking more energy. None of these problems are insoluble, but they have to be solved before any kind of a commercially viable system can be marketed. These are the jobs for a development team funded by an industrial partner. or, nay amateur with the necessary skills and money can start right now and follow Mills' path. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 24 11:43:00 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1OJgYcB026666; Thu, 24 Feb 2005 11:42:34 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1OJgT7w026618; Thu, 24 Feb 2005 11:42:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 11:42:29 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: DoE LIES AGAIN!!! -- LENR-CANR goes postal Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 14:43:25 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050224135443.02b9aa58 pop.mindspring.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58035 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hey Jed, I see you're adjusting the site to red state tastes (grin). This should prove very interesting to watch... K. -----Original Message----- From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:jedrothwell mindspring.com] Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2005 1:57 PM To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: DoE LIES AGAIN!!! -- LENR-CANR goes postal See: http://lenr-canr.org/ Ed said he wanted BOLD inflammatory headlines of this is what we came up with. This is a break with our New York Times style of presentation. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 24 11:44:10 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1OJhncB027293; Thu, 24 Feb 2005 11:43:49 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1OJhfHV027242; Thu, 24 Feb 2005 11:43:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 11:43:42 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 14:40:34 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: Practical application for BLP technology In-reply-to: <004601c51aa7$796bdda0$9c7cccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58036 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Thomas Malloy is the broker. Harry Mike Carrell at mikec snip.net wrote: > Harry wrote: > >>> No, I'm a broker, my hobby is finding new technology that has >>> economic potential. The amount of capital would have to be figured >>> out when writing the business plan. >>> >>>> When you write, >>>> "I suggested using hydrinos to harden the interior >>>> of cannon barrels." do you have any idea how you >>>> would actually apply the described technology to >>>> achieve your stated result? >>> >>> No, but neither has anyone else. We have lots of engineers here who >>> are looking for work. > > Broker vaporware at it best. Totally disconnected from the reality of BLP > technology at the moment, or in the foreseeable future. > > Mike Carrell > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 24 11:48:38 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1OJmIcB029132; Thu, 24 Feb 2005 11:48:18 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1OJmG2i029107; Thu, 24 Feb 2005 11:48:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 11:48:16 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050224144410.02a689e0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 14:47:56 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: But that would be irresponsible . . . Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_18915140==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58037 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_18915140==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed along with our inflammatory new look, I thought about including this link to the guy who blew off Mel Miles. http://www.science.doe.gov/bes/dms/staff_contacts/Horwitz.htm I was going to say: "If you do not like the DoE policy call this man and tell him what you think!" But I decided that posting things like that on the Internet would be irresponsible. (Ha, ha. Yes, I realize Vortex is archived. Actually, in this Brave New World anybody can find Horwitz in two seconds.) - Jed --=====================_18915140==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" along with our inflammatory new look, I thought about including this link to the guy who blew off Mel Miles.

http://www.science.doe.gov/bes/dms/staff_contacts/Horwitz.htm

I was going to say: "If you do not like the DoE policy call this man and tell him what you think!"

But I decided that posting things like that on the Internet would be irresponsible.

(Ha, ha. Yes, I realize Vortex is archived. Actually, in this Brave New World anybody can find Horwitz in two seconds.)

- Jed
 --=====================_18915140==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 24 12:00:42 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1OK0FcB002384; Thu, 24 Feb 2005 12:00:21 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1OK0DxJ002361; Thu, 24 Feb 2005 12:00:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 12:00:13 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <009801c51aa9$ec2881c0$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <007301c5184f$b65c1c20$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> <03e301c51867$93108a40$0958ccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <025c01c51878$76f5f5a0$d0bcfea9@jonesb9pacbell> <043901c518fe$dae4e180$0958ccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <002101c51aa3$4217e1e0$9c7cccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> Subject: Re: Incredible battery and TOE Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 11:49:11 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58038 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mike, > > >The last time I talked to Mills, several years ago, he said he was > > >about a factor of 4 away from a closed loop. > > ...and a 1000 fold improvement from fusion would put him over the top by a > factor of 250. > How? We seem to be talking past each other here. The alternative to a Mills' hydrino plasma cell is not deuterino plasma cell boosted by a D+D nuclear reaction, although that is quite a boost. You seem to be forgetting about the "neutron multiplication ratio" of subcritical uranium fission. In fission, each neutron absorbed in the fuel has the potential to create 2.2 -2.5 or so new neutrons, depending on enrichment. This can continue for many sequential steps or "generations". Losses can keep this under two in a subcritical reactor. A chain reaction occurs when this is over two. In between, in the subcritical zone, there is a multiplication ratio, based on may factors. It can be very high, using even a small amount of natural uranium - when a thick graphite blanket is provided and there is no light water, only heavy water. With a thick blanket of graphite over 99 of every 100 neutrons going out, comes back eventually. All the losses are then in the fuel. A multiplication ratio of 100-to-1 is feasible with a few hundred pounds of U and a thick graphite blanket. Each fission releases 200 MeV of mass/energy. ERGO for each 1/137 neutrino absorbed, which Mills has said in past versions of CQM is the expected end-point of shrinkage, assuming this acts like a regular neutron and there is no reason why it would not, the energy boost, using fission, can be 20,000 to one not 1000 to one. If a deuterino is used, it is double that. If you want to argue that a hydrino might not act that way, then we will assume that we will be using heavy water - and again we are back to the 20,000 to one ratio of energy multiplication using subcritical fission. Mills in early work basically agreed with this premise, and called it CAF or something like that... now he is down-playing it. He can't have it both ways. A deuterino does not act any differently with Uranium than with another deuterino. This **subcritical fission** application is extremely significant. And it is not speculation. Someone will pull it off eventually, and if it is not Mills, then he will probably not benefit, because of the de Geuss patent priority for lithium/beryllium catalyst which is an already granted WPO patent, not a patent applied-for. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 24 12:27:30 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1OKQpcB012401; Thu, 24 Feb 2005 12:26:56 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1OKQhN3012343; Thu, 24 Feb 2005 12:26:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 12:26:43 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20050224202622.33269.qmail web41526.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 12:26:22 -0800 (PST) From: Harvey Norris Subject: Antimony Oxide (measles) To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58039 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Antimony oxide is a heavy powder employed in the plastic industry on mixing recipe's as a fire retardent meaning the(pvc) plastic will have a higher ignition temp for combustion. I commonly used antimony oxide at work for many years. But I was allergic to the powder form resulting in skin irritations similar to poisin ivy. Only some people(30- 50%? )are allergic to antimony oxide, and the rash that developes on those skin specimens has been refered to as antimony measles. I have also heard the the production of antimony oxide always has a trace of arsenic compounds. HDN From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 24 12:27:57 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1OKRMcB012644; Thu, 24 Feb 2005 12:27:29 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1OKRBZR012539; Thu, 24 Feb 2005 12:27:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 12:27:11 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <012d01c51aae$4daad480$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: Arie De Geus Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 12:20:37 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0128_01C51A6B.3F2C0700" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: <_SaWXB.A.nDD.bijHCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58040 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0128_01C51A6B.3F2C0700 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There is a little information available on the web about the = "alternative" hydrino work of Arie De Geus. Turns out I was mis-spelling = his name. My apology if you are a vortex lurker.. I must say up front that reading his book makes one think that he is a = religious fanatic more so than a dedicated scientist. But that does not = mean he is not also an inventive genius... or does it? He does hold a recently granted WPO patent: WO0208787=20 "METHOD AND APPARATUS FOR THE PRODUCTION OF SO-CALLED "FRACTIONAL = HYDROGEN" AND ASSOCIATED PRODUCTION OF PHOTON ENERGY He also at one time was giving out the name of an independent laboratory = in Georgia which had confirmed his findings. I've lost track of the = name, but it was in Marietta, if memory serves. Even though this patent looks on the surface to be a case of BLP "claim = jumping" it could be original and become a real thorn in Mills' future, = should both of the concepts end up being the basis of a commercial = product. This patent seems to describe the simplest possible hydrino = device, which could be called a plasma discharge tube. One can make inferences from the background section of that patent. The inventor's full length book "Fluidum Continuum Universalis" is = available from a vanity press: http://www.booksurge.com/author.php3?accountID=3DGRTU00159 but I do not own it, and it is more general is nature than the patent = (some might call it a bit "cranky"). I have read some pertinent = extracts, which can be summarized as much further from mainstream = physics than Mills. The major difference between the De Geus hydrino theory and that of = Mills is "In this Invention use is made of the properties of certain = isotopes of Li, Be and B, which carry an extra neutron, in a function = as"nucleonic catalysts". This is a new concept; so far catalysts always = only referred to actions by electrons in the outer shell of atoms." It should be noted that ^22Ne is not mentioned by de Geus but it does = fit into the category of carrying the "extra neutron" as defined in the = patent. It would be scary to think that Mills, who has some recent new = patent filings identifying neon as a catalyst, while in earlier work = identified and used it as a not functioning control element, has now = realized that this theory of De Geus might have some validity and is = trying to return the "claim jumping" favor by trying to get priority as = to neon as a catalyst. Time will tell. Jones Two atoms bump into each other:=20 "I think I've lost an electron!" says one.=20 "Are you sure?" replies the other.=20 "I'm positive!"=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0128_01C51A6B.3F2C0700 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
There is a little information available on the web about the = "alternative"=20 hydrino work of Arie De Geus. Turns out I was mis-spelling his name. My = apology=20 if you are a vortex lurker..
 
I must say up front that reading his book makes one think that he = is a=20 religious fanatic more so than a dedicated scientist. But that does not = mean he=20 is not also an inventive genius... or does it?
 
He does hold a recently granted WPO patent: WO0208787
 
"METHOD AND APPARATUS FOR THE PRODUCTION OF SO-CALLED "FRACTIONAL = HYDROGEN"=20 AND  ASSOCIATED PRODUCTION OF PHOTON ENERGY
 
He also at one time was giving out the name of an independent = laboratory in=20 Georgia which had confirmed his findings. I've lost track of the = name, but=20 it was in Marietta, if memory serves.
 
Even though this patent looks on the surface to be a case of BLP = "claim=20 jumping" it could be original and become a real thorn in Mills' future, = should=20 both of the concepts end up being the basis of a commercial = product. This=20 patent seems to describe the simplest possible hydrino device, which = could be=20 called a plasma discharge tube.
 
One can make inferences from the background section of that = patent.
 
The inventor's full length book "Fluidum Continuum = Universalis" is=20 available from a vanity press:
http:= //www.booksurge.com/author.php3?accountID=3DGRTU00159
but I do not own it, and it is more general is nature than the = patent (some=20 might call it a bit "cranky"). I have read some pertinent extracts,=20 which can be summarized as much further from mainstream = physics than=20 Mills.
 
The major difference between the De Geus hydrino theory and that of = Mills is "In this Invention use is made of the properties of = certain=20 isotopes of Li, Be and B, which carry an extra neutron, in a function=20 as"nucleonic catalysts". This is a new concept; so far catalysts always = only=20 referred to actions by electrons in the outer shell of atoms."
 
It should be noted that ^22Ne is not mentioned by de Geus but = it does=20 fit into the category of carrying the "extra neutron" as defined in the = patent.=20 It would be scary to think that Mills, who has some recent new patent = filings=20 identifying neon as a catalyst, while in earlier work identified and = used it as=20 a not functioning control element, has now realized that this theory of = De Geus=20 might have some validity and is trying to return the "claim jumping" = favor by=20 trying to get priority as to neon as a catalyst.
 
Time will tell.
 
Jones
 
 Two atoms bump into each other:
"I think I've lost an = electron!"=20 says one.
"Are you sure?" replies the other.
"I'm positive!" =
 
 
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_0128_01C51A6B.3F2C0700-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 24 12:36:58 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1OKaXcB016950; Thu, 24 Feb 2005 12:36:39 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1OKaUaL016916; Thu, 24 Feb 2005 12:36:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 12:36:30 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: "Vortex" , Subject: RE: US advantage in technology slips away Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 15:37:30 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <20050224093952.C8A943DBD xprdmailfe6.nwk.excite.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Resent-Message-ID: <04mHVC.A.NIE.MrjHCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58041 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Michael, Whew! You're all fired up this morning; some good ranting below. Rather than a point by point, I'd like to suggest another way of looking at the problem. I know many artists as well as engineers, and you may find it amusing that many share the same problems as engineers. I came to NYC expecting to find the best of the breed, and after some searching I did indeed find these people. It is often claimed that the arts in general are at a low point now, "Where are the Van Goghs and Rembrants?" They are still here, more than ever before. But where are they? Last week I went to an opening in Soho, a Japanese artist was showing there under the auspices of a Swiss organization. We went, and many people were in attendance. NO ONE was looking at the work, they were all networking. The work itself was brown lumps pasted to the wall, I think the artist was trying for a sort of Japanese Rock Garden effect. The results were miserable. We surveyed the room, and there in the corner was a gorgeous 20 something girl standing alone. I said, "There's the artist" and sure enough it was. I'm sure her parents would be familiar to you, Mike. So we left, and went uptown to look at a space my SO wanted to rent for her business. It was a studio and living space of another artist, a friend I had never met. I was struck by a few of the canvases in the hall, and asked to see more. So the artist goes off behind the refrigerator and starts pulling out these incredible works, stuff that just knocked your socks off. "Wow" I said, "This is amazing stuff, are you showing now?" "Nope, can't get a show in NYC, sometimes I show upstate but otherwise I teach art to inner city grade school kids". I'd like to say this was an anomaly, but it's probably the third or fourth time I've had this exact experience. I've come to know many good artists in NYC, none can show here. I've given up on the galleries, what's there is just mountains of crap. My point? A society of Creators values the creative. A society of Consumers does not. It has often been said that we live in a Capitalist society, historically considered the opposite of the Communist society of the former SU. I think this is mistaken. We do not live in a Capitalist society; we live in a Consumer society. The difference is striking. Capitalism and it's handmaiden Meritocracy can challenge the individual to rise to their potential; Consumerism drags the individual down to the lowest common denominator. It removes self determination and motivation and replaces it with passivity and consumption, spoon feeding of the most easily digestible pabulum. We see the effects everywhere in our mass culture. Buildings are beige boxes rather than compelling architecture. Cheap and crappy products pushing out the quality goods previously available at a slightly greater cost. Television saturates us with advertisements for ever more ugly and crass opiates for the ever more incurious and ignorant masses. In such a society, the Creators, be they artists, scientists, or otherwise, are marginalized. What value is Quality and the New? It should be noted that Carly Fiorina has a degree in Medieval studies ( the better to control the serfs I suppose ), and shareholders were quite happy to allow her to run one of the two preeminent US electronic test equipment manufacturers into the ground. She's far richer than you or I will ever be Michael, so can you with good conscious suggest to your children they should become engineers or scientists when such a path will lead them into a career only moderately more successful than the local Wal-Mart greeter? I don't have any kids, but what do you tell yours? By the way, I appreciate your sharing your thoughts below. The point is well taken that the Left suffers from as much ignorance and cupidity as the Right, lumping all of Capitalism into the Evil box without regard for the great value and potential for good which exists there. In the same way, the Right lumps all consumer protection and regulation into the Evil box, forgetting things like Bhopal which would happen in America much more frequently were we to eliminate liability and litigation along with regulation ( just how did all those superfund sites come into existence? ). Lawyers are just one symptom of the problem. The source is Consumerism. The result is a society in which waste and crass consumption are lauded, and efficiency and taste are deprecated. When buying and selling become more important than creating, does it surprise anyone that the results are as you find them in your neighborhood? K. -----Original Message----- From: Michael Foster [mailto:michael.foster excite.com] Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2005 4:40 AM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: US advantage in technology slips away Jed wrote; > "China now graduates four times as many engineers as the United States, > while the European Union countries graduate three times as many. At the > same time, the US lead is slipping in technology patents and science and > engineering doctoral degrees. Emerging nations are also becoming adept at > capitalizing on technologies invented in the developed world." > As teenagers say: Well, duh. Well, duh, indeed. Don't you want to know why? And no, it's not the ineffectual and badly aimed Homeland Security Act. It's lawyers. In order to have a market for engineers, you have to make something. In order to make something you need a factory. And as we all have come to learn, that's just not nice. We have read for more than a hundred years now in the popular press how evil industry and industrialists are. So-called environmentalists have come to use the word "industry" as an epithet. Naturally, any corporation or individual who actually makes something should be sued for something, anything. And since that is usually what happens, there are fewer manufacturers and hence a dwindling demand for engineers. Furthermore, engineers are often underemployed, can't get paid what they're worth. Lawyers are getting all the money and engineers aren't. I currently employ three engineers (chemical, mechanical, electrical) in jobs that don't require their skills just because they can't get employment in their chosen fields. My son goes to a public (state school, for you Brits) elementary school with very high academic standards, quite unusual for the Los Angeles Unified School District, but not too surprising when you consider that there probably isn't a house in the neighborhood worth less than $2 million. I would estimate that, except for a sprinkling of actors and other entertainment types, at least 80% of the parents are lawyers. Both parents. When I meet these creatures in a social situation, I just have to bite my tongue. "Hello, I'm little Diana's father, Bob, and this is my wife, Judge Martha. What law firm are you with?" I'm not exaggerating. I just want to explode. When these folks learn that I actually make things and sell them for a living, they just look mortified. I can't help but wonder when I'm in a room full of these lying vile snakes, how many jobs they've destroyed, how many lives they've ruined. And they look so nice, so proper, so upstanding. In the last 20 years, most of the suppliers I buy raw materials from have been sued out of business, and I am now forced to buy from foreign companies. At one time, I was willing to pay more, within reason, for domestic supply, but now that option has been removed. And for those of you Vorts from the Michael Moore, Ted Rall end of the political spectrum, who continue to insult and offend those who may not agree with you, consider the following. Three or four years ago, in the Los Angeles Times, the president of the California Trial Lawyers Ass'n was quoted as saying, "We own the Democratic Party, it's ours." This was a public statement, not some back room comment. They are ostensibly quite proud of this. You know, it might be a good idea not to alienate potential allies in the quest for alternate sources of energy, just because you disagree with them politically. M. _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 24 12:45:58 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1OKjZcB020875; Thu, 24 Feb 2005 12:45:40 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1OKjXda020851; Thu, 24 Feb 2005 12:45:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 12:45:33 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050224154412.02bd04e8 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 15:45:06 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Also uploaded comments about Sci. Am. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58042 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I also uploaded a cleaned up and footnoted version of the comments I made about the Scientific American the other day: http://lenr-canr.org/News.htm#SciAmSlam - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 24 13:14:00 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1OLDHcB029987; Thu, 24 Feb 2005 13:13:18 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1OLDFrb029971; Thu, 24 Feb 2005 13:13:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 13:13:15 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050224160709.02ba3240 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 16:12:48 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Progress in solar towers Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58043 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: See: http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,66694,00.html?tw=wn_tophead_2 200 MW for $500 to $750 million. Actually, that is not such a bad price. The same capacity with other sources would cost roughly: Gas-fired turbine, $100 million Conventional wind turbine, $400 million Conventional fission, $1,200 million (but they do not make fission reactors this small) The solar tower is better than a conventional wind turbine system because the energy is generated 24 hours a day, regardless of the weather. It generates more power during hot, cloudless days, but it still works even with cloudy weather or at night. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 24 13:41:44 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1OLfNcB007804; Thu, 24 Feb 2005 13:41:23 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1OLfIJM007770; Thu, 24 Feb 2005 13:41:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 13:41:18 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001101c51ab9$ed125240$6601a8c0 msns.flt.ptd.net> From: "revtec" To: References: Subject: Re: US advantage in technology slips away Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 16:43:46 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58044 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I heard it said once, "If you took all the lawyers in this country, and laid them end to end around the equater, we would all be better off.". From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 24 13:42:13 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1OLfncB008010; Thu, 24 Feb 2005 13:41:50 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1OLflnI007983; Thu, 24 Feb 2005 13:41:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 13:41:47 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Scientific American again misrepresents cold fusion research Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 08:41:37 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <75is11dmlcq0et39n5i2hsk91b6chkren1 4ax.com> References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050222102701.029a58a8 pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050222102701.029a58a8 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j1OLffcB007867 Resent-Message-ID: <8fpiQD.A.q8B.aokHCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58045 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jed Rothwell's message of Tue, 22 Feb 2005 10:31:38 -0500: Hi Jed, [snip] >3. Not all chemical explanations for the excess heat were eliminated. > >Correction: All chemical explanations for the excess heat were eliminated >long before Fleischmann and Pons went public 1989. The cold fusion effect If you classify Hydrino production as chemical energy, then it's true that "not all chemical explanations for the excess heat were eliminated". Hydrogen is the one thing present in all experiments. Hydrino production could produce sufficient heat with no nuclear signature. It could also produce a nuclear signature in some circumstances, which may be approximately commensurate with the excess heat, but need not be. >4. Excess power was only a few percent more than the power applied, >suggesting that measurement errors could account for the purported net energy. > >Correction: Excess power has ranged up to 300% when input power was >supplied. In gas loading and heat after death experiments, there is no >input power, so any detectable output heat comes from cold fusion, since >there are, as noted above, no chemical changes in the cells, and no >chemical fuel. See above. [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 24 14:18:48 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1OMIYcB025216; Thu, 24 Feb 2005 14:18:34 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1OMIQjA025157; Thu, 24 Feb 2005 14:18:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 14:18:26 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <421E5329.8010205 ix.netcom.com> Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 15:20:25 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Scientific American again misrepresents cold fusion research References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050222102701.029a58a8 pop.mindspring.com> <75is11dmlcq0et39n5i2hsk91b6chkren1@4ax.com> In-Reply-To: <75is11dmlcq0et39n5i2hsk91b6chkren1 4ax.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58046 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > In reply to Jed Rothwell's message of Tue, 22 Feb 2005 10:31:38 -0500: > Hi Jed, > [snip] > >>3. Not all chemical explanations for the excess heat were eliminated. >> >>Correction: All chemical explanations for the excess heat were eliminated >>long before Fleischmann and Pons went public 1989. The cold fusion effect > > > If you classify Hydrino production as chemical energy, then it's true that "not all chemical explanations for the excess heat were eliminated". > Hydrogen is the one thing present in all experiments. Hydrino production could produce sufficient heat with no nuclear signature. It could also produce a nuclear signature in some circumstances, which may be approximately commensurate with the excess heat, but need not be. > Actually Robin, hydrino production has been ruled out. Cells are now sealed and contain a recombiner. If hydrinos were produced and did not react with oxygen to reform water, extra oxygen would accumulate and been detected as increased pressure or extra gas. If they did react, either they would revert to normal D, absorbing their energy of formation, or they would produce abnormal D2O, which has not been seen. In any case, abnormal behavior would be observed. Regards, Ed >>4. Excess power was only a few percent more than the power applied, >>suggesting that measurement errors could account for the purported net energy. >> >>Correction: Excess power has ranged up to 300% when input power was >>supplied. In gas loading and heat after death experiments, there is no >>input power, so any detectable output heat comes from cold fusion, since >>there are, as noted above, no chemical changes in the cells, and no >>chemical fuel. > > > See above. > [snip] > Regards, > > > Robin van Spaandonk > > All SPAM goes in the trash unread. > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 24 14:50:48 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1OMoFcB007997; Thu, 24 Feb 2005 14:50:19 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1OMoBDK007963; Thu, 24 Feb 2005 14:50:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 14:50:12 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Scientific American again misrepresents cold fusion research Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 09:49:58 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050222102701.029a58a8 pop.mindspring.com> <75is11dmlcq0et39n5i2hsk91b6chkren1@4ax.com> <421E5329.8010205@ix.netcom.com> In-Reply-To: <421E5329.8010205 ix.netcom.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j1OMo2cB007844 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58047 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Edmund Storms's message of Thu, 24 Feb 2005 15:20:25 -0700: Hi Ed, [snip] >Actually Robin, hydrino production has been ruled out. Cells are now >sealed and contain a recombiner. If hydrinos were produced and did not >react with oxygen to reform water, extra oxygen would accumulate and >been detected as increased pressure or extra gas. If they did react, >either they would revert to normal D, absorbing their energy of >formation, or they would produce abnormal D2O, which has not been seen. > In any case, abnormal behavior would be observed. [snip] Not necessarily, because hydrinohydride could undergo new chemical reactions (i.e. form strange "salts") which could bind any excess oxygen as a solid. (Though I am somewhat grasping at straws here). Laying all my cards on the table, I would say first, that not all cells are sealed, and secondly that it is highly likely that putative hydrinos are not responsible for all forms of CF, though IMO they may be responsible for at least some past reports of excess heat. In short, I tend to agree with you that there is likely to be *at least* one form of CF/LENR/CANR, that has nothing to do with hydrinos. However I think it's going too far to say that hydrinos have been definitively ruled out as a contender in some cases. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 24 16:12:15 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1P0C0cB015728; Thu, 24 Feb 2005 16:12:01 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1P0BqGr015669; Thu, 24 Feb 2005 16:11:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 16:11:52 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <421E6DBE.8090005 ix.netcom.com> Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 17:13:50 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Scientific American again misrepresents cold fusion research References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050222102701.029a58a8 pop.mindspring.com> <75is11dmlcq0et39n5i2hsk91b6chkren1@4ax.com> <421E5329.8010205@ix.netcom.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58048 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > In reply to Edmund Storms's message of Thu, 24 Feb 2005 15:20:25 -0700: > Hi Ed, > [snip] > >>Actually Robin, hydrino production has been ruled out. Cells are now >>sealed and contain a recombiner. If hydrinos were produced and did not >>react with oxygen to reform water, extra oxygen would accumulate and >>been detected as increased pressure or extra gas. If they did react, >>either they would revert to normal D, absorbing their energy of >>formation, or they would produce abnormal D2O, which has not been seen. >> In any case, abnormal behavior would be observed. > > [snip] > Not necessarily, because hydrinohydride could undergo new chemical reactions (i.e. form strange "salts") which could bind any excess oxygen as a solid. > (Though I am somewhat grasping at straws here). > > Laying all my cards on the table, I would say first, that not all cells are sealed, and secondly that it is highly likely that putative hydrinos are not responsible for all forms of CF, though IMO they may be responsible for at least some past reports of excess heat. > In short, I tend to agree with you that there is likely to be *at least* one form of CF/LENR/CANR, that has nothing to do with hydrinos. However I think it's going too far to say that hydrinos have been definitively ruled out as a contender in some cases. > > Well Robin, you just proved the one law that can never be disproven, i.e. in the presence of a clever person, no law can be proven correct. Regards, Ed > > Regards, > > > Robin van Spaandonk > > All SPAM goes in the trash unread. > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 24 16:40:37 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1P0eMcB028179; Thu, 24 Feb 2005 16:40:22 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1P0eDgd028120; Thu, 24 Feb 2005 16:40:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 16:40:13 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=Hm/Y6+6Z1O52fFjzZ5m8Klo4b4VcRtuntar8evl6yt9Ymh0zFrglJ2VbwDglgJOt13iYLyjkm0nY8CvSPKCwUwzTFYCuKH6WsNH/6UPCxMpkZS8Azqd8xhXWntNUgimVqNyqTOyt8+cW1Gz13HGmB5oM8zVeP5vSZF77tHEMSws= ; Message-ID: <20050225004002.24384.qmail web51708.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 16:40:01 -0800 (PST) From: Terry Blanton Subject: Re: US advantage in technology slips away To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <001101c51ab9$ed125240$6601a8c0 msns.flt.ptd.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58049 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- revtec wrote: > I heard it said once, > > "If you took all the lawyers in this country, and > laid them end to end > around the equater, we would all be better off.". "For every 320 Americans there is a lawyer — indeed, with 799,960 lawyers among a population of 255,600,000, America may have the highest proportion of lawyers per capita in the world. In England, there are 694 Englishmen per lawyer, in France 2,461 Frenchmen per lawyer and in Japan 8,195 Japanese per lawyer. Lest you think the Japanese are exceptionally poorly served, you may wish to reflect that there are 15,748 Koreans per lawyer, with a mere 2,813 lawyers for Korea's population of 44,300,000." http://www.davidappleyard.com/japan/jp5.htm __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Sports - Sign up for Fantasy Baseball. http://baseball.fantasysports.yahoo.com/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 24 16:57:30 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1P0vCcB001539; Thu, 24 Feb 2005 16:57:17 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1P0v8hc001508; Thu, 24 Feb 2005 16:57:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 16:57:08 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=YBhCHIgfmy9sE5hXOUhmyJkzaEn+qDqhH3LhVPBJa3vKOaFfx4+/J+ysXhCAWbF4nI1cdWI0ehf4imL8iYL1zmaSKhy8PTCqlJTCc9fspUH1+W8B+2EMJ1Uwkj1C72Lc3qWsD4z1jo54E/uUAoW3Rc0LpT13rFlH/ScCX6yh1nM= ; Message-ID: <20050225005658.29318.qmail web51708.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 16:56:58 -0800 (PST) From: Terry Blanton Subject: Re: Good shot, Dr. Gonzo To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <6ByFzD.A.WX.ifnHCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58050 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- Terry Blanton wrote: > Duke was probably trying to block a putt and missed. It was his last article (pre-posthumously): - ) http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?id=1992213 http://www.doonesbury.com/strip/faqs/ "I know I'm mad. I've always been mad. At least, I think I must be." -The Dark Side yadayadayada __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 24 19:25:31 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1P3OlcB026873; Thu, 24 Feb 2005 19:24:51 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1P3ORak026629; Thu, 24 Feb 2005 19:24:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 19:24:27 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <005801c51ae9$75fb9010$0100007f xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: Progress in solar towers Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 21:23:26 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0054_01C51AB7.13F07430" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-99.2 required=4.0 tests=HTML_30_40,HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58051 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0054_01C51AB7.13F07430 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0055_01C51AB7.13F1FAD0" ------=_NextPart_001_0055_01C51AB7.13F1FAD0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankJed, The proposed Australian tower ( German patent) reminds me of the first = product we designed and built. We later learned to challenge all initial designs by using another = design team to " see if they could improve it". I asked our design team to comment. Interesting suggestions on the tower were offered. Combine the useful purposes .Desalinization, electric power generation, = mineral extraction, fish farming ,etc. Use a battery of Fresnel lenses to contentrate sunlight to produce = steam thus reducing land area required to trap heat. The tower height and land size could be substantially reduced by = redesigning the tower in the shape of a gourd (pot bellied base and = funnel neck top) with vortex creating inner wall shapes to accelerate = the flow. Steam condenses in the cool zone of a vortex. A vortex loves = water vapor. The water column represented by the condensed water = represents useable head pressure for a combination water/wind turbine. Locate the tower near the seaside for source of water. And last: be sure a vortex creating tower IS WELL GROUNDED !! It is an = electric generator in itself. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0055_01C51AB7.13F1FAD0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Jed,
 
The proposed Australian tower ( German patent) = reminds=20 me of the first product we designed and built.
We later learned to challenge all initial = designs by using another design team to " see if they = could=20 improve it".
I  asked our design team to = comment.
 
Interesting suggestions on the tower were=20 offered.
Combine the useful = purposes .Desalinization,=20 electric power generation, mineral extraction, fish farming = ,etc.
 
Use  a battery of Fresnel lenses to = contentrate=20 sunlight to produce steam thus reducing land area required to trap=20 heat.
 
The tower height and land size could be = substantially=20 reduced by redesigning the tower in the shape of a gourd (pot bellied = base=20 and  funnel neck top) with vortex creating inner wall shapes to = accelerate=20 the flow. Steam condenses in the cool zone of a vortex. A vortex loves = water=20 vapor. The water column represented by the condensed = water represents=20 useable head pressure for a combination water/wind turbine.
Locate the tower near the seaside for source = of=20 water.
And last: be sure a vortex creating tower IS = WELL=20 GROUNDED !! It is an electric generator in itself.
 
 
Richard
 
 

 

------=_NextPart_001_0055_01C51AB7.13F1FAD0-- ------=_NextPart_000_0054_01C51AB7.13F07430 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <005301c51ae9$5e7e8820$0100007f xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0054_01C51AB7.13F07430-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 24 22:23:03 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1P6MmPt014187; Thu, 24 Feb 2005 22:22:50 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1P6Mk4j014171; Thu, 24 Feb 2005 22:22:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 22:22:46 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 01:19:38 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: [OffTopic]: Anthropologist falsified data In-reply-to: To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j1P6MePt014134 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58052 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: http://education.guardian.co.uk/higher/sciences/story/0,12243,1418104,00.htm l History of modern man unravels as German scholar is exposed as fraud Flamboyant anthropologist falsified dating of key discoveries Luke Harding in Berlin Saturday February 19, 2005 The Guardian It appeared to be one of archaeology's most sensational finds. The skull fragment discovered in a peat bog near Hamburg was more than 36,000 years old - and was the vital missing link between modern humans and Neanderthals. This, at least, is what Professor Reiner Protsch von Zieten - a distinguished, cigar-smoking German anthropologist - told his scientific colleagues, to global acclaim, after being invited to date the extremely rare skull. However, the professor's 30-year-old academic career has now ended in disgrace after the revelation that he systematically falsified the dates on this and numerous other "stone age" relics. Yesterday his university in Frankfurt announced the professor had been forced to retire because of numerous "falsehoods and manipulations". According to experts, his deceptions may mean an entire tranche of the history of man's development will have to be rewritten. "Anthropology is going to have to completely revise its picture of modern man between 40,000 and 10,000 years ago," said Thomas Terberger, the archaeologist who discovered the hoax. "Prof Protsch's work appeared to prove that anatomically modern humans and Neanderthals had co-existed, and perhaps even had children together. This now appears to be rubbish." The scandal only came to light when Prof Protsch was caught trying to sell his department's entire chimpanzee skull collection to the United States. An inquiry later established that he had also passed off fake fossils as real ones and had plagiarised other scientists' work. His discovery appeared to show that Neanderthals had spread much further north than was previously known. But his university inquiry was told that a crucial Hamburg skull fragment, which was believed to have come from the world's oldest German, a Neanderthal known as Hahnhöfersand Man, was actually a mere 7,500 years old, according to Oxford University's radiocarbon dating unit. The unit established that other skulls had been wrongly dated too. Another of the professor's sensational finds, "Binshof-Speyer" woman, lived in 1,300 BC and not 21,300 years ago, as he had claimed, while "Paderborn-Sande man" (dated at 27,400 BC) only died a couple of hundred years ago, in 1750. "It's deeply embarrassing. Of course the university feels very bad about this," Professor Ulrich Brandt, who led the investigation into Prof Protsch's activities, said yesterday. "Prof Protsch refused to meet us. But we had 10 sittings with 12 witnesses. "Their stories about him were increasingly bizarre. After a while it was hard to take it seriously. You had to laugh. It was just unbelievable. At the end of the day what he did was incredible." During their investigation, the university discovered that Prof Protsch, 65, a flamboyant figure with a fondness for gold watches, Porsches and Cuban cigars, was unable to work his own carbon-dating machine. Instead, after returning from Germany to America, where he did his doctorate, and taking up a professorship, he had simply made things up. In one case he had claimed that a 50 million-year-old "half-ape" called Adapis had been found in Switzerland, an archaeological sensation. In reality, the ape had been dug up in France, where several other examples had already been found. Prof Terberger said that he grew suspicious about the professor's work in 2001 after sending off the skull fragment to Oxford for tests. Further tests revealed that all of the skulls dated by Prof Protsch were in reality far younger than he had claimed, prompting Prof Terberger and a British colleague, Martin Street, to write a scientific paper last year. At the same time, German police began investigating the professor for fraud, following allegations that he had tried to sell the university's 278 chimpanzee skulls for $70,000 to a US dealer. Why, though, had he done it? "If you find a skull that's more than 30,000 years old it's a sensation. If you find three of them people notice you. It's good for your career," Prof Terberger said. "At the end of the day it was about ambition." Other details of the professor's life also appeared to crumble under scrutiny. Before he disappeared from the university's campus last year, Prof Protsch told his students he had examined Hitler's and Eva Braun's bones. He also boasted of having flats in New York, Florida and California, where, he claimed, he hung out with Arnold Schwarzenegger and Steffi Graf. Even the professor's aristocratic title, "von Zieten", appears to be bogus. Far from being the descendant of a dashing general in the hussars, the professor was the son of a Nazi MP, Wilhelm Protsch, Der Spiegel magazine revealed last October. The university is investigating how thousands of documents lodged in the anthropology department relating to the Nazis' gruesome scientific experiments in the 1930s were mysteriously shredded, allegedly under the professor's instructions. They also discovered that some of the 12,000 skeletons stored in the department's "bone cellar" were missing their heads, apparently sold to friends of the professor in the US and sympathetic dentists. Yesterday the university admitted that it should have discovered the professor's fabrications far earlier. But it pointed out that, like all public servants in Germany, the high-profile anthropologist was virtually impossible to sack, and had also proved difficult to pin down. "He was perfect at being evasive," Prof Brandt said yesterday. "He would switch from saying 'it isn't really clear' to giving diffuse statements. "I'm not a psychologist so I can't say why he did it. But my guess is that when he came back from the States 30 years ago he realised he wasn't up to the job of being a professor. So he started inventing things. It rapidly became a habit.' Yesterday the professor, who lives in Mainz with his wife Angelina, didn't respond to emails from the Guardian asking him to comment on the affair. But in earlier remarks to Der Spiegel he insisted that he was the victim of an "intrigue". "All the disputed fossils are my personal property," he told the magazine. Missing links and planted stone age finds Piltdown Man The most infamous of all scientific frauds was unearthed in 1912 in a Sussex gravel pit. With its huge human-like braincase and ape-like jaw, the Piltdown Man "fossil" was named Eoanthropus dawsoni after Charles Dawson, the solicitor and amateur archaeologist who discovered it. For 40 years Piltdown Man was heralded as the missing link between humans and their primate ancestors. But in 1953 scientists concluded it was a forgery. Radiocarbon dating showed the human skull was just 600 years old, while the jawbone was that of an orang-utan. The entire package of fossil fragments found at Piltdown - which included a prehistoric cricket bat - had been planted. The devil's archaeologist Japanese archaeologist Shinichi Fujimura was so prolific at uncovering prehistoric artefacts he earned the nickname "God's hands". At site after site, Fujimura discovered stoneware and relics that pushed back the limits of Japan's known history. The researcher and his stone age finds drew international attention and rewrote text books. In November 2000 the spell was broken when a newspaper printed pictures of Fujimura digging holes and burying objects that he later dug up and announced as major finds. "I was tempted by the devil. I don't know how I can apologise for what I did," he said. Piltdown Turkey The supposed fossil of Archaeoraptor, which was to become known as the "Piltdown turkey", came to light in 1999 when National Geographic magazine published an account of its discovery. It seemed to show another missing link - this time between birds and dinosaurs. Archaeoraptor appeared to be the remains of a large feathered bird with the tail of a dinosaur. The fossil was smuggled out of China and sold to a private collector in the US for £51,000. Experts were suspicious and closer examination showed the specimen to be a "composite" - two fossils stuck together with strong glue. David Adam From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 25 05:05:13 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1PD4kOo030018; Fri, 25 Feb 2005 05:04:46 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1PD4eDh029983; Fri, 25 Feb 2005 05:04:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 05:04:40 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=O0jmC5GmHJZEBVs0wF39b0a1RSxgprDzCmNWPgJDojQIHkTsPS5l9LyWROpuyMAV; Message-ID: <410-22005252512420 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Explosive Antimony, What The Heck is Going On? Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 06:04:02 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940afa0c3589a3bcaca7dfae3130db9b1f2350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.125 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58053 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Michael Foster wrote: > --- On Thu 02/24, Frederick Sparber < fjsparber earthlink.net > wrote: >> Clouds of antimony trichloride are given off at the same time. >>Hence the term Explosive Antimony is given to a solid solution( 4 to 12 >> percent )of the trihalide in alpha-antimony." > > The heat of combustion of H2 + 1/2 O2 is 54,000 calories per mole >> (18 grams) , or 3.000 calories per gram. > >The 19,600 calories per gram released by Explosive Antimony is > > over 6 times this. > > What role does Hydrogen play at the cathode, during electrolysis? > > LENR-CANR Connection? Hydrinos too? > > Good question. Of course, we don't know if this is O/U as there > is no data on the current used to deposit the antimony on the > cathode. > My table of gram equivalents for Antimony (Atomic wt. 121.76) and Chlorine (Atomic wt.35.457) gives 1.514 grams deposited per ampere-hour for Antimony, and 1.323 grams per ampere-hour for Chlorine. Assuming 6.0 volts cell potential the input power would be 6.0 watts or 6.0 joules per second 0r 21,600 joule/hr for 1.514 grams of Antimony plated out, or 14,000 joule per plated-out gram. The 84,000 joule per gram Explosive Antimony output, in addition to the energy recovered by recombining the plated-out Antimony with the liberated Chlorine to get back Antimony Trichloride SbCl3, sure looks O/U, doesn't it? Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

Michael Foster wrote:
>
--- On Thu 02/24, Frederick Sparber < fjsparber earthlink.net > wrote:

>> Clouds of antimony trichloride are given off at the same time.
>>Hence the term Explosive Antimony is given to a solid solution( 4 to 12
>> percent )of the trihalide in alpha-antimony."

> > The heat of combustion of H2 + 1/2 O2 is 54,000 calories per mole
>> (18 grams) , or 3.000 calories per gram.

> >The 19,600 calories per gram released by Explosive Antimony is
> > over 6 times this.

> > What role does Hydrogen play at the cathode, during electrolysis?

> > LENR-CANR Connection?   Hydrinos too?

>
> Good question.  Of course, we don't know if this is O/U as there
> is no data on the current used to deposit the antimony on the
> cathode.
>
My table of gram equivalents for Antimony (Atomic wt. 121.76) and Chlorine (Atomic wt.35.457)
gives 1.514 grams deposited per ampere-hour for Antimony, and 1.323 grams per ampere-hour for
Chlorine.
Assuming 6.0 volts cell potential the input power would be 6.0 watts or 6.0 joules per second
0r 21,600 joule/hr for 1.514 grams of Antimony plated out, or 14,000 joule per plated-out gram.
 
The 84,000 joule per gram Explosive Antimony output, in addition to the energy recovered by
recombining the plated-out Antimony with the liberated Chlorine to get back Antimony Trichloride
SbCl3, sure looks O/U, doesn't it?
 
Frederick
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 25 06:03:08 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1PE2sOo020220; Fri, 25 Feb 2005 06:02:54 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1PE2q16020189; Fri, 25 Feb 2005 06:02:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 06:02:52 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001001c51b42$af1d4650$0100007f xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Dept of Energy and Anthro(apology) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 08:02:07 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000C_01C51B10.4CCD5940" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-99.2 required=4.0 tests=HTML_30_40,HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58054 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C51B10.4CCD5940 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000D_01C51B10.4CCEDFE0" ------=_NextPart_001_000D_01C51B10.4CCEDFE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank The DoE was cobbled together in 1975 from a basket of = Government Departments much like the Piltdown Man except the DoE cherry = pie sold to the public had the petroleum industry paying for it. The DoE has a four part mission statement.. Defense, Energy, Science and = Environment. After more than 25 years in existence, the mission has been = lost in the closet but the Dept has succeeded in creating super fossils = of itself. Rumor has it ( tongue in cheek) that several University Anthropology = Depts are seeking research grants to study the skeletons. As part of the = funding grant, the Universities must promise not to get the skulls mixed = up with the bones. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_000D_01C51B10.4CCEDFE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
      The DoE=20 was cobbled together in 1975 from a basket of Government = Departments much=20 like the Piltdown Man except the DoE cherry pie sold to the public had = the=20 petroleum industry paying for it.
 
The DoE has a four part mission statement.. = Defense,=20 Energy, Science and Environment. After more than 25 years in existence, = the=20 mission has been lost in the closet but the Dept has succeeded in = creating =20 super fossils of itself.
 
Rumor has it ( tongue in cheek) that several = University=20 Anthropology Depts are seeking research grants to study the skeletons. = As part=20 of the funding grant, the Universities must promise not to get the = skulls mixed=20 up with the bones.
 
Richard
 
 

 

------=_NextPart_001_000D_01C51B10.4CCEDFE0-- ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C51B10.4CCD5940 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000b01c51b42$975d1ae0$0100007f xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C51B10.4CCD5940-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 25 08:14:18 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1PGDtOo019348; Fri, 25 Feb 2005 08:13:55 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1PGDZ1Z019125; Fri, 25 Feb 2005 08:13:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 08:13:35 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050225100618.029f6eb0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 11:13:04 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Off Topic]: Anthropologist falsified data In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58055 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is an amazing story. I think it is on topic here. Some lessons from it: Naive people sometimes say that scientists never commit fraud because the stakes are too high; a scientist's only asset is truth, and eventually fraud is always found out. I see no evidence for these assertions. It seems to me there is actually less vigilance in academics than there is in other fields such as programming or banking. It is easier to fool scientists than most other groups of people, because they do not expect fraud -- thanks to the prevailing mythology that fraud is exceedingly rare in science. The skeptics often say that cold fusion is fraud. The correct response is not to deny that fraud exists, but to point out what I mentioned a few weeks ago, that the chances of randomly picking out 200 utterly inept or fraudulent electrochemists is astronomically small. (To be sure, electrochemistry is a small world, and nearly everyone in it is in some way connected to Martin Fleischmann or John O'M Bockris.) One of the reasons fraud is relatively easy to commit in science is that the stakes are usually low. No one checks, and no one really cares much. It is a bit like cheating at solitaire. To put it brutally, research papers in anthropology seldom have any real-world consequences or value. They gather dust on library shelves. It is often said that "academic politics is vicious because the stakes are so small." Ed Storms often says that the ICCF conference proceedings would be ignored and forgotten if we were not uploading papers from them. It seems the day after an academic conference ends, no one remembers what was said. It may seem contradictory, but all of this notwithstanding, research is one of the most important things people do. If it were not for quiet people who tinker with odd ideas in dusty corners, the human race would still be living in caves. Individual research papers and projects are usually inconsequential, but they contribute to the whole -- and research as a whole is the most viable activity. Vital discoveries come out of research that no one expected would ever be of practical value. Sometimes discoveries made decades or centuries earlier suddenly turn out to be valuable. Overall, the "return on investment" for research is so astronomically high every effort to calculate it or to imagine how we might reward scientists for their efforts becomes absurd. We have discussed Mills, and his efforts to achieve both scientific and financial success. If his device works as claimed, and it does succeed, the consequences and financial rewards would be completely out of scale to normal business enterprise. It is almost ridiculous to be discussing them in the first place. Consider some famous titans of business enterprise such as Charles Flint, Thomas Watson or Bill Gates. They earned billions of dollars and helped create industries that gainfully employment millions of people. But such contributions seldom outlive the people who make them by more than a few decades. Flint & Watson's creation -- IBM -- nearly collapsed in the 1980s. It is a different entity by now. I doubt that Microsoft will survive the transition to MPP microcomputer architecture (or some other radical transformation). But the work of inventors and researchers lives forever. The contributions of James Watt, or Crick and Watson are as vital today as they were 50 and 150 years ago. Assuming the human race survives millions of years into the future, the aggregate contribution by Crick and J. Watson will outweigh that of Flint and T. Watson perhaps a trillion to one. I mean the actual dollar value of these contributions, not to mention the sum of human happiness or historic consequences engendered by them. As usual, Francis Bacon said it best in the conclusion to Novum Organum: "Again, let anyone but consider the immense difference between men's lives in the most polished countries of Europe, and in any wild and barbarous region of the new Indies [America], he will think it so great, that man may be said to be a god unto man, not only on account of mutual aid and benefits, but from their comparative states -- the result of the arts, and not of the soil or climate. Again, we should notice the force, effect, and consequences of inventions, which are nowhere more conspicuous than in those three which were unknown to the ancients; namely, printing, gunpowder, and the compass. For these three have changed the appearance and state of the whole world: first in literature, then in warfare, and lastly in navigation; and innumerable changes have been thence derived, so that no empire, sect, or star, appears to have exercised a greater power and influence on human affairs than these mechanical discoveries. It will, perhaps, be as well to distinguish three species and degrees of ambition. First, that of men who are anxious to enlarge their own power in their country, which is a vulgar and degenerate kind; next, that of men who strive to enlarge the power and empire of their country over mankind, which is more dignified but not less covetous; but if one were to endeavor to renew and enlarge the power and empire of mankind in general over the universe, such ambition (if it may be so termed) is both more sound and more noble than the other two. Now the empire of man over things is founded on the arts and sciences alone, for nature is only to be commanded by obeying her." - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 25 09:05:57 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1PH5OOo014391; Fri, 25 Feb 2005 09:05:25 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1PH5Fv1014345; Fri, 25 Feb 2005 09:05:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 09:05:15 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C51B5C.22E7672A" Subject: RE: Arie De Geus Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 11:04:58 -0600 Message-ID: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C5042EF44A CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Arie De Geus Thread-Index: AcUar20mJpFE+0gEREyGR+dL7eqrOAArHqZQ From: "Zell, Chris" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 25 Feb 2005 17:04:59.0560 (UTC) FILETIME=[2372E280:01C51B5C] Resent-Message-ID: <9nfn7B.A.BgD.Ir1HCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58056 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C51B5C.22E7672A Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable would it be possible to post his patent? I am unable to bring up any copy of it from any database. =20 Thanks ________________________________ From: Jones Beene [mailto:jonesb9 pacbell.net]=20 Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2005 3:21 PM To: vortex Subject: Arie De Geus There is a little information available on the web about the "alternative" hydrino work of Arie De Geus. Turns out I was mis-spelling his name. My apology if you are a vortex lurker.. =20 I must say up front that reading his book makes one think that he is a religious fanatic more so than a dedicated scientist. But that does not mean he is not also an inventive genius... or does it? =20 He does hold a recently granted WPO patent: WO0208787=20 =20 "METHOD AND APPARATUS FOR THE PRODUCTION OF SO-CALLED "FRACTIONAL HYDROGEN" AND ASSOCIATED PRODUCTION OF PHOTON ENERGY =20 He also at one time was giving out the name of an independent laboratory in Georgia which had confirmed his findings. I've lost track of the name, but it was in Marietta, if memory serves. =20 Even though this patent looks on the surface to be a case of BLP "claim jumping" it could be original and become a real thorn in Mills' future, should both of the concepts end up being the basis of a commercial product. This patent seems to describe the simplest possible hydrino device, which could be called a plasma discharge tube. =20 One can make inferences from the background section of that patent. =20 The inventor's full length book "Fluidum Continuum Universalis" is available from a vanity press: http://www.booksurge.com/author.php3?accountID=3DGRTU00159 but I do not own it, and it is more general is nature than the patent (some might call it a bit "cranky"). I have read some pertinent extracts, which can be summarized as much further from mainstream physics than Mills. =20 The major difference between the De Geus hydrino theory and that of Mills is "In this Invention use is made of the properties of certain isotopes of Li, Be and B, which carry an extra neutron, in a function as"nucleonic catalysts". This is a new concept; so far catalysts always only referred to actions by electrons in the outer shell of atoms." =20 It should be noted that ^22Ne is not mentioned by de Geus but it does fit into the category of carrying the "extra neutron" as defined in the patent. It would be scary to think that Mills, who has some recent new patent filings identifying neon as a catalyst, while in earlier work identified and used it as a not functioning control element, has now realized that this theory of De Geus might have some validity and is trying to return the "claim jumping" favor by trying to get priority as to neon as a catalyst. =20 Time will tell. =20 Jones =20 Two atoms bump into each other:=20 "I think I've lost an electron!" says one.=20 "Are you sure?" replies the other.=20 "I'm positive!"=20 =20 =20 =20 =20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C51B5C.22E7672A Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
would it be = possible to=20 post his patent? I am unable to bring up any copy of it from any=20 database.
 
Thanks

From: Jones Beene = [mailto:jonesb9 pacbell.net]=20
Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2005 3:21 PM
To:=20 vortex
Subject: Arie De Geus

There is a little information available on the web about the = "alternative"=20 hydrino work of Arie De Geus. Turns out I was mis-spelling his name. My = apology=20 if you are a vortex lurker..
 
I must say up front that reading his book makes one think that he = is a=20 religious fanatic more so than a dedicated scientist. But that does not = mean he=20 is not also an inventive genius... or does it?
 
He does hold a recently granted WPO patent: WO0208787
 
"METHOD AND APPARATUS FOR THE PRODUCTION OF SO-CALLED "FRACTIONAL = HYDROGEN"=20 AND  ASSOCIATED PRODUCTION OF PHOTON ENERGY
 
He also at one time was giving out the name of an independent = laboratory in=20 Georgia which had confirmed his findings. I've lost track of the = name, but=20 it was in Marietta, if memory serves.
 
Even though this patent looks on the surface to be a case of BLP = "claim=20 jumping" it could be original and become a real thorn in Mills' future, = should=20 both of the concepts end up being the basis of a commercial = product. This=20 patent seems to describe the simplest possible hydrino device, which = could be=20 called a plasma discharge tube.
 
One can make inferences from the background section of that = patent.
 
The inventor's full length book "Fluidum Continuum = Universalis" is=20 available from a vanity press:
http:= //www.booksurge.com/author.php3?accountID=3DGRTU00159
but I do not own it, and it is more general is nature than the = patent (some=20 might call it a bit "cranky"). I have read some pertinent extracts,=20 which can be summarized as much further from mainstream = physics than=20 Mills.
 
The major difference between the De Geus hydrino theory and that of = Mills is "In this Invention use is made of the properties of = certain=20 isotopes of Li, Be and B, which carry an extra neutron, in a function=20 as"nucleonic catalysts". This is a new concept; so far catalysts always = only=20 referred to actions by electrons in the outer shell of atoms."
 
It should be noted that ^22Ne is not mentioned by de Geus but = it does=20 fit into the category of carrying the "extra neutron" as defined in the = patent.=20 It would be scary to think that Mills, who has some recent new patent = filings=20 identifying neon as a catalyst, while in earlier work identified and = used it as=20 a not functioning control element, has now realized that this theory of = De Geus=20 might have some validity and is trying to return the "claim jumping" = favor by=20 trying to get priority as to neon as a catalyst.
 
Time will tell.
 
Jones
 
 Two atoms bump into each other:
"I think I've lost an = electron!"=20 says one.
"Are you sure?" replies the other.
"I'm positive!" =
 
 
 
 
------_=_NextPart_001_01C51B5C.22E7672A-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 25 09:07:48 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1PH71Oo015065; Fri, 25 Feb 2005 09:07:01 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1PH6qA2014998; Fri, 25 Feb 2005 09:06:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 09:06:52 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050225170247.0068f664 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 17:02:47 +0000 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Higher Order Conservation Laws of Motion. Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j1PH6fOo014946 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58057 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I would like to further develop the investigation of high order derivatives touched on in previous posts. Writing the expression dnL/dtn out in full we have, 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th nth (dL/dt).(dL/dt).(dL/dt).(dL/dt).(dL/dt).(dL/dt).......(dL/dt). For simplicity I will just take the numerator term. 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th nth dnL (dL).(dL).(dL).(dL).(dL).(dL).......(dL). Now this form of expression is not very insightful since it does not diagrammatically show the nested nature of the derivative string. A more meaningful representation is the string form familiar to anyone who has written computer programs. dnL = (dL(dL(dL(dL(dL(dL.......(dL))))))). or even, http://www.grimer2.freeserve.co.uk/pge24.htm 8-) Since we are never likely to need more than 26 derivatives we may as well use Dr.Seuss's Cat nomenclature to distinguish between the different orders. d*L = (AdL(BdL(CdL(EdL(FdL(GdL.......(ZdL)....)))))) With the exception of the first and last term which are special boundary cases, each length in this string has an upper and lower bound. For example, RdL > SdL > TdL, and so on. This means that concept of length we are dealing with here is quite distinct from the Euclidean concept of length. In Euclidean geometry the concept of length is unbounded. In Euclidean geometry one can make length as small as one likes. There is no such thing as a smallest length. There is not 'atom' of length, no unit of length. There is no such thing as a largest length. There is no Universe of length. The concept of length in Euclid's geometry is metaphysical, not physical. In contrast, the concept of length implicit in GI (Gottfried-Isaac) calculus is eminently physical - which no doubt accounts for its success in real life situations. Now the problem with Cartesian Geometry (CG) is though it moves some way from the one dimensional concept of length to the extent that it introduces three independent dimensions of length, x, y and z. which is an improvement on a 'ball of wool' geometry for example which, like Euclid, has only one dimension..... ==================================================================== A slight digression onto a piece by Fred Hoyle in Nature which may be regarded as "ball of wool geometry" in that he reduces everything (including Time to one nominal dimension. However, you will notice that he sneaks in multi-dimensionality under the guise of powers of L. His paper piece would have been much improved if he had got to grips with the nesting aspect of powers of L. --------------------------------------------------------------- It is well known that when c and h(bar) are set equal to unity. only a single dimensionality is needed for the whole of physics. We take this to be length and we denote the unit by L. Every quantity has a dimensional form L^n, for example, mass ¬L^-1. frequency ¬L^-1. charge ¬Lo. magnetic field ¬L^-2 and the gravitational 'constant' has dimensionality L^2. Every observation is concerned with a dimensionless number. so that every observation is concerned with a product of quan- tities such that the dimensional dependencies on L cancel to zero So far as experimental physics and engineering are concerned it is possible to convert a quantity of dimensionality L^n into a quantity of dimensionality L^m by means of a linear device provided n=m Non-linear devices are needed if n<>m. This property makes it comparatively easy to see what kind of physical device is needed to relate one quantity to another. There is no doubt that physics and engineering are made quite unnecessarily complicated by the current practice of using multiunit systems. F Hoyle and J V NARLIKAR --------------------------------------------------------------- ==================================================================== ....unfortunately CG is still lumbered with the Euclidean concept in each of its three independent dimensions. This has the additional disadvantage of disguising the hierarchical nature of x, y and z which are not normally thought of as implicitly referring to length area and volume. (To be continued) Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 25 09:35:35 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1PHYtOo002478; Fri, 25 Feb 2005 09:34:55 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1PHYqwi002449; Fri, 25 Feb 2005 09:34:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 09:34:52 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050225173059.006ae7ec pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 17:30:59 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: [Off Topic]: Anthropologist falsified data Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58058 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 11:13 am 25-02-05 -0500, you wrote: >Overall, the "return on investment" for research is so >astronomically high every effort to calculate it or to imagine how we might >reward scientists for their efforts becomes absurd. Funny you should say that. When I was a young scientific officer at RRL my section drilled some research cores from one of the Motorways which were then being constructed. In the process we discovered a show-stopper fault which, had it gone uncorrected, would have led to premature failure of the whole length of the motorway and the enormous cost of repair and consequent dislocation. I calculated that the amount we saved the country by this simple discovery and the recognition of its implications exceeded the total salary cost of my team for the whole of our careers. This was a great consolation when in subsequent years I might spend X months working on an idea and get precisely nowhere. 8-) Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 25 10:04:03 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1PI3hOo015256; Fri, 25 Feb 2005 10:03:44 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1PI3di1015207; Fri, 25 Feb 2005 10:03:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 10:03:39 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Arie De Geus Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 13:04:39 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-reply-to: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C5042EF44A CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58059 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Chris, At 42 pages, it's a bit large to post here. Try downloading it directly from http://ep.espacenet.com/ BTW, it's not a patent. It's an application for a patent. Big difference here, in that it hasn't been granted and in fact little seems to be happening to it ( last updated late 2002 ). For some reason it's been rejected for coverage in Germany, I wonder why??? K. -----Original Message----- From: Zell, Chris [mailto:ChrisZell clearchannel.com] Sent: Friday, February 25, 2005 12:05 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: Arie De Geus would it be possible to post his patent? I am unable to bring up any copy of it from any database. Thanks From: Jones Beene [mailto:jonesb9 pacbell.net] Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2005 3:21 PM To: vortex Subject: Arie De Geus There is a little information available on the web about the "alternative" hydrino work of Arie De Geus. Turns out I was mis-spelling his name. My apology if you are a vortex lurker.. I must say up front that reading his book makes one think that he is a religious fanatic more so than a dedicated scientist. But that does not mean he is not also an inventive genius... or does it? He does hold a recently granted WPO patent: WO0208787 "METHOD AND APPARATUS FOR THE PRODUCTION OF SO-CALLED "FRACTIONAL HYDROGEN" AND ASSOCIATED PRODUCTION OF PHOTON ENERGY He also at one time was giving out the name of an independent laboratory in Georgia which had confirmed his findings. I've lost track of the name, but it was in Marietta, if memory serves. Even though this patent looks on the surface to be a case of BLP "claim jumping" it could be original and become a real thorn in Mills' future, should both of the concepts end up being the basis of a commercial product. This patent seems to describe the simplest possible hydrino device, which could be called a plasma discharge tube. One can make inferences from the background section of that patent. The inventor's full length book "Fluidum Continuum Universalis" is available from a vanity press: http://www.booksurge.com/author.php3?accountID=GRTU00159 but I do not own it, and it is more general is nature than the patent (some might call it a bit "cranky"). I have read some pertinent extracts, which can be summarized as much further from mainstream physics than Mills. The major difference between the De Geus hydrino theory and that of Mills is "In this Invention use is made of the properties of certain isotopes of Li, Be and B, which carry an extra neutron, in a function as"nucleonic catalysts". This is a new concept; so far catalysts always only referred to actions by electrons in the outer shell of atoms." It should be noted that ^22Ne is not mentioned by de Geus but it does fit into the category of carrying the "extra neutron" as defined in the patent. It would be scary to think that Mills, who has some recent new patent filings identifying neon as a catalyst, while in earlier work identified and used it as a not functioning control element, has now realized that this theory of De Geus might have some validity and is trying to return the "claim jumping" favor by trying to get priority as to neon as a catalyst. Time will tell. Jones Two atoms bump into each other: "I think I've lost an electron!" says one. "Are you sure?" replies the other. "I'm positive!" From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 25 10:40:50 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1PIeBHT032341; Fri, 25 Feb 2005 10:40:16 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1PIe9FP032309; Fri, 25 Feb 2005 10:40:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 10:40:09 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050225183302.006c5aa4 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 18:33:02 +0000 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Explosive Antimony, What The Heck is Going On? Resent-Message-ID: <3nTAxB.A.m4H.GE3HCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58060 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 06:04 am 25-02-05 -0600, Sparber wrote: > The 84,000 joule per gram Explosive Antimony output, in addition > to the energy recovered by recombining the plated-out Antimony > with the liberated Chlorine to get back Antimony Trichloride > SbCl3, sure looks O/U, doesn't it? I feel sure this idea is worth pursuing. In fact I would go further and claim that crossing any phase boundary at constant pressure involves O/U. The situation can be modeled very simply by jamming a flexible plastic ruler between the two faces of a large steel G clamp so that the ruler takes on a curved shape. Pushing on the ruler will induce a state of compression in material of the relatively elastic ruler (compression strain energy) and a state of tension in the relatively stiff clamp (tension strain energy). If the ruler is pushed past the central position the tensile strain energy of the stiff abutment phase is explosively released into the ruler which whips across to mirror its starting position. The ruler material is being held together by one level of the Beta-atmosphere/Casimir/ZPE. The abutments or G frame is being held together by a deeper level of B/C/Z. All phase changes must involve this kind of two level instability. Interestingly enough, there was a discussion on one of the Groups (it might even have been Vortex) about some bloke who claimed to have found a mistake in the steam tables. As you might expect, the traditional deluge of scorn was poured over his claim - probably because it would have implied the non-conservation of conventional energy to their blinkered way of thinking. In fact, he was probably correct and simply observing the effect of harnessing some small degree of B/C/Z pressure. Cheers Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 25 11:40:45 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1PJe66v027029; Fri, 25 Feb 2005 11:40:07 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1PJe25Z026989; Fri, 25 Feb 2005 11:40:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 11:40:02 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Off Topic]: Anthropologist falsified data X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: ID = 909b8a8ff0cae19159d456a4b333f05c Reply-To: michael.foster excite.com From: "Michael Foster" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: michael.foster excite.com X-Mailer: PHP Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050225193944.30946299E6 xprdmailfe22.nwk.excite.com> Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 14:39:44 -0500 (EST) Resent-Message-ID: <7VUd8B.A.YlG.R83HCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58061 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is hardly surprising since the whole field of anthropology has mostly been a major fraud. The shining saints of anthropology, Boaz and Mead, have had their entire works exposed as fraudulent. Margaret Mead really established the tone of anthropological study with her major work, "Coming of age in Samoa." She drew a portrait of a tribal society whose characteristics were as she wished them to be, rather than the way they were. I notice that after all this time, anthropology departments are working hard to rehabilitate her just because, well, she's still politically correct. And then we have the ongoing fraud that must have lasted for decades. That was that the Maya were an enlightened, non-violent society. Individual anthropologists would privately say that they knew this to be nonsense, but the herd mentality persisted, and unsuspecting students were taught this with wide-eyed worshipful acceptance. Perhaps the most glaring example of this sort of behavior in recent times was the "discovery" the the Tasaday tribe in a remote location of the Phillipines. There was a major publicity rollout and the anthropologists responsible assigned to them all the politically correct behaviour anyone could dream of. In other words, they were supposed to be non-violent communists living in harmony with nature and having no religion. My oh my. The Tasaday were revealed to be a total fraud. See: http://www.museumofhoaxes.com/tasadays.html My worry is how this sort of herd mentality may be affecting more important fields of scientific study. I think we are witnessing a minor aspect of this behavior in the suppression of LENR-CANR research by the scientific establishment. M. _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 25 11:46:37 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1PJkA6v031329; Fri, 25 Feb 2005 11:46:14 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1PJk6OU031289; Fri, 25 Feb 2005 11:46:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 11:46:06 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <006101c51b71$c11bb4c0$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: Cc: References: Subject: Re: Arie De Geus Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 11:39:41 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: <0gOnaC.A.ioH.8B4HCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58062 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Keith Nagel writes, > At 42 pages, it's a bit large to post here. Try downloading it > directly from > http://ep.espacenet.com/ > BTW, it's not a patent. It's an application for a patent. Big > difference here, in that it hasn't been granted and in fact > little seems to be happening to it ( last updated late 2002 ). > For some reason it's been rejected for coverage in Germany, > I wonder why??? Perhaps it is becasue of Mills' intervention in Germany ? He has seven WPO items in the WPO files, some of them already granted - maybe he has another in Germany alone. http://tinyurl.com/52t9m I was mistaken in thinking that the de Geus application had been granted. However, it does seem to have priority (2000) for certain details of operation (plamsa?). The Lawyers will be lining up at the doors, and chasing limos instead of ambulances, one can suspect, if a commercial device is in the offing. Should be a real Dutch treat. Don't write off de Geus, however, as I am told that he has some deep-pocket connections. As in ... Royalty?... of the Royal Dutch Shell variety. His name alone will turn up 20,000 hits on google vs.689 fro Randy, not that anybody is keeping count, but if royalty is somehow involved... then a count might be important Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 25 12:00:49 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1PK0P6v005751; Fri, 25 Feb 2005 12:00:25 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1PK0MBj005728; Fri, 25 Feb 2005 12:00:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 12:00:22 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050225144400.029f4c08 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 15:00:06 -0500 To: michael.foster excite.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Off Topic]: Anthropologist falsified data In-Reply-To: <20050225193944.30946299E6 xprdmailfe22.nwk.excite.com> References: <20050225193944.30946299E6 xprdmailfe22.nwk.excite.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_21864171==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58063 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --=====================_21864171==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Michael Foster wrote: >This is hardly surprising since the whole field of >anthropology has mostly been a major fraud. Nonsense. Some of my best friends are anthropologists. >Margaret Mead really established the tone of >anthropological study with her major work, "Coming >of age in Samoa." She drew a portrait of a tribal >society whose characteristics were as she wished them >to be, rather than the way they were. I notice >that after all this time, anthropology departments >are working hard to rehabilitate her just because, >well, she's still politically correct. That's silly. First, anthropology is a big field, and there is a wide range of opinion within it. Mead was popular with the public and respected in the profession but not a superstar. Personifying the whole field with her is like judging all of neo-Darwinism based on the works of S. J. Gould. Second, I have read Mead's stuff and it isn't that bad, and I knew her personally, and she was among the least "politically correct" people I have ever encountered. All research looks obsolete decades later. That's a good thing -- it means we are making progress. You can always find mistakes, misjudgments, and oversimplifications. Everyone always sees what they want to see; bias is inevitable. It is unfair to criticize groundbreaking work done under difficult circumstances because it is inaccurate, or because we learn much more later on. That is like criticizing Fleischmann and Pons because they used the BF3 counter wrong. I do not mean to personalize this, but my guess is that if we were to dispatch Michael Foster to a totally alien culture, with primitive conditions, where nobody speaks his language and he has not got a clue what they are saying at first, and we gave him a few years to learn the language and figure out the culture, he would do a lot worse job than Mead did. My point is, the job is harder than it looks, and unless you have some field experience doing things like this you should not yell "fraud" or "incompetence." Considering the difficulties they face it is astounding how much anthropologists accomplish. - Jed --=====================_21864171==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Michael Foster wrote:

This is hardly surprising since the whole field of
anthropology has mostly been a major fraud.

Nonsense. Some of my best friends are anthropologists.


Margaret Mead really established the tone of
anthropological study with her major work, "Coming
of age in Samoa."  She drew a portrait of a tribal
society whose characteristics were as she wished them
to be, rather than the way they were.  I notice
that after all this time, anthropology departments
are working hard to rehabilitate her just because,
well, she's still politically correct.

That's silly.

First, anthropology is a big field, and there is a wide range of opinion within it. Mead was popular with the public and respected in the profession but not a superstar. Personifying the whole field with her is like judging all of neo-Darwinism based on the works of S. J. Gould.

Second, I have read Mead's stuff and it isn't that bad, and I knew her personally, and she was among the least "politically correct" people I have ever encountered.

All research looks obsolete decades later. That's a good thing -- it means we are making progress. You can always find mistakes, misjudgments, and oversimplifications. Everyone always sees what they want to see; bias is inevitable. It is unfair to criticize groundbreaking work done under difficult circumstances because it is inaccurate, or because we learn much more later on. That is like criticizing Fleischmann and Pons because they used the BF3 counter wrong.

I do not mean to personalize this, but my guess is that if we were to dispatch Michael Foster to a totally alien culture, with primitive conditions, where nobody speaks his language and he has not got a clue what they are saying at first, and we gave him a few years to learn the language and figure out the culture, he would do a lot worse job than Mead did. My point is, the job is harder than it looks, and unless you have some field experience doing things like this you should not yell "fraud" or "incompetence." Considering the difficulties they face it is astounding how much anthropologists accomplish.

- Jed
 --=====================_21864171==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 25 12:03:29 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1PK356v006824; Fri, 25 Feb 2005 12:03:06 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1PK30eV006755; Fri, 25 Feb 2005 12:03:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 12:03:00 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 14:59:44 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Francis Bacon,Modern & Post-Modern Science In-reply-to: To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_XLOGdPt09G3I23+1PvJtFQ)" User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58064 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --Boundary_(ID_XLOGdPt09G3I23+1PvJtFQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable 'Modern' science is a protestant conversation with the world. 'Post-modern' science is a multi-faith conversation with the world. Harry http://www.strangescience.net/bacon.htm Francis Bacon=20 Born in 1561, Francis Bacon was neither a paleontologist nor a biologist. He couldn't even be called a scientist considering the term didn't exist yet. Still, Bacon influenced all of science, once proclaiming, "I have taken all knowledge to be my province." In the centuries leading up to Bacon's birth, human knowledge depended heavily on divine philosophy and Aristotelian logic. Bacon advocated a completely new approach in which human knowledge would be empirically built upon observation and experimentation. Bacon's aim was help mankind master nature through discovery and invention. He discouraged scholars and savants from reaching conclusions too quickly, and urged them to gather as many facts as possible. Succeeding generations of Baconian scientists turned awa= y from discerning divine intentions in nature's creations. For better or worse, they instead looked for nature's utility to man. Yet Bacon was not a scientist in the completely modern sense; he was a product of a deeply religious society, and believed that the study of nature would restore Man to the powers he had before the Biblical fall from grace: For man by the Fall fell at the same time from his state of innocency and from his dominion over Creation. Both of these losses however can even in this life be in some part repaired; the former by religion and faith, the latter by arts and sciences. The Protestant Bacon also likened Aristotle =8B a pagan and, worse, a pagan whose teachings had been supported by the Catholic Church =8B to the Antichrist. This most influential of philosophers lived such a dicotomous existence tha= t historians occasionally wondered whether they were studying the same person= . Though he was the son of the Lord Keeper of the Great Seal of England, Baco= n inherited no real fortune, and spent his life plagued by debt, a problem no= t helped by his extravagant tastes. Trying to make a comfortable living, he spent much of his life caught up in court intrigue, currying favor with patrons who often had vitriolic differences with each other. He was arguabl= y not the most loyal friend anyone ever had =8B a prot=E9g=E9 of the Earl of Essex, Bacon eventually played a role in the earl's prosecution for treason. Ironically, Bacon's own reputation suffered in the affair, and he never fully regained the confidence of Queen Elizabeth after the earl was executed, though his prospects improved considerably under the reign of Kin= g James I. (Though he tried for years, however, Bacon never succeeded in persuading either monarch to establish institutions such as zoos, botanical gardens or laboratories.) What is not surprising about Bacon was that he wa= s both a scholar and a government official =8B he advocated state control of science and condemned "intellectual individualists." Bacon published The Advancement of Learning in 1605 and his magnum opus Novum Organum in 1620. One of his most popular writings, however, was a utopian work, New Atlantis, describing a national scientific institution called Solomon's House. Subsequent scientists devoted themselves to realizing Bacon's vision, and Solomon's House influenced the later formatio= n of the Royal Society of London. In 1621, Bacon was made Viscount St. Alban's. Later that year, he was charged with accepting bribes as Lord Chancellor, stripped of his viscount status, and even briefly imprisoned. Whether Bacon was truly guilty could b= e debated considering the people who charged him with corruption were mostly angered that he had ruled against them after accepting their gifts. After his disgrace, he devoted the last years of his life to posterity. He polished his earlier writings for publication and compared himself to Demosthenes, Seneca and Cicero, classical authors who had also fallen from grace. Bacon died in 1626, reportedly from a catching a chill during an outdoor experiment, trying to see whether cold could delay putrefaction. --Boundary_(ID_XLOGdPt09G3I23+1PvJtFQ) Content-type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Francis Bacon,Modern & Post-Modern Science
'Modern' science is a protestant conversation with the world.
'Post-modern' science is a multi-faith conversation with the world.
Harry


http://www.strangescience.net/bacon.htm

Francis Bacon

Born in 1561, Francis Bacon was neither a paleontologist nor a
biologist. He couldn't even be called a scientist considering the term
didn't exist yet. Still, Bacon influenced all of science, once proclaiming,=
"I have taken all knowledge to be my province."

In the centuries leading up to Bacon's birth, human knowledge depended
heavily on divine philosophy and Aristotelian logic. Bacon advocated a
completely new approach in which human knowledge would be empirically built=
upon observation and experimentation. Bacon's aim was help mankind master <= BR> nature through discovery and invention. He discouraged scholars and savants=
from reaching conclusions too quickly, and urged them to gather as many facts as possible. Succeeding generations of Baconian scientists turned awa= y
from discerning divine intentions in nature's creations. For better or
worse, they instead looked for nature's utility to man. Yet Bacon was not a=
scientist in the completely modern sense; he was a product of a deeply
religious society, and believed that the study of nature would restore Man =
to the powers he had before the Biblical fall from grace:

For man by the Fall fell at the same time from his state of innocency and <= BR> from his dominion over Creation. Both of these losses however can even in <= BR> this life be in some part repaired; the former by religion and faith, the <= BR> latter by arts and sciences.

The Protestant Bacon also likened Aristotle =8B a pagan and, worse, a pagan <= BR> whose teachings had been supported by the Catholic Church =8B to the
Antichrist.

This most influential of philosophers lived such a dicotomous existence tha= t
historians occasionally wondered whether they were studying the same person= .
Though he was the son of the Lord Keeper of the Great Seal of England, Baco= n
inherited no real fortune, and spent his life plagued by debt, a problem no= t
helped by his extravagant tastes. Trying to make a comfortable living, he <= BR> spent much of his life caught up in court intrigue, currying favor with patrons who often had vitriolic differences with each other. He was arguabl= y
not the most loyal friend anyone ever had =8B a prot=E9g=E9 of the Earl of Essex,=
Bacon eventually played a role in the earl's prosecution for treason.
Ironically, Bacon's own reputation suffered in the affair, and he never fully regained the confidence of Queen Elizabeth after the earl was
executed, though his prospects improved considerably under the reign of Kin= g
James I. (Though he tried for years, however, Bacon never succeeded in
persuading either monarch to establish institutions such as zoos, botanical=
gardens or laboratories.) What is not surprising about Bacon was that he wa= s
both a scholar and a government official =8B he advocated state control of science and condemned "intellectual individualists."

Bacon published The Advancement of Learning in 1605 and his magnum o= pus
Novum Organum in 1620. One of his most popular writings, however, wa= s a
utopian work, New Atlantis, describing a national scientific institu= tion
called Solomon's House. Subsequent scientists devoted themselves to
realizing Bacon's vision, and Solomon's House influenced the later formatio= n
of the Royal Society of London.

In 1621, Bacon was made Viscount St. Alban's. Later that year, he was
charged with accepting bribes as Lord Chancellor, stripped of his viscount =
status, and even briefly imprisoned. Whether Bacon was truly guilty could b= e
debated considering the people who charged him with corruption were mostly =
angered that he had ruled against them after accepting their gifts. After <= BR> his disgrace, he devoted the last years of his life to posterity. He
polished his earlier writings for publication and compared himself to
Demosthenes, Seneca and Cicero, classical authors who had also fallen from =
grace. Bacon died in 1626, reportedly from a catching a chill during an outdoor experiment, trying to see whether cold could delay putrefaction.
--Boundary_(ID_XLOGdPt09G3I23+1PvJtFQ)-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 25 12:19:35 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1PKJJ6v013062; Fri, 25 Feb 2005 12:19:19 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1PKJHko013039; Fri, 25 Feb 2005 12:19:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 12:19:17 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type; b=QlKnhrutipBdRq79GZGUN5ffH4o23VP4n47BwosZXNHrHP6n/HNY7+4SPz7uilFY; Message-ID: <410-220052525191816180 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Explosive Antimony, What The Heck is Going On? Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 13:18:16 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940a9b7d5ebbb27d496f73edb48dd057da0350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.19 Resent-Message-ID: <6-cfGD.A.lLD.Dh4HCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58065 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Frank Grimer wrote: > > At 06:04 am 25-02-05 -0600, Sparber wrote: > > > The 84,000 joule per gram Explosive Antimony output, in addition > > to the energy recovered by recombining the plated-out Antimony > > with the liberated Chlorine to get back Antimony Trichloride > > SbCl3, sure looks O/U, doesn't it? > > > I feel sure this idea is worth pursuing. In fact I would go > further and claim that crossing any phase boundary at constant > pressure involves O/U. > Things get kind of sticky, Frank, the Antimony Anode does not dissolve in HCL, but, Gore (No kin to Al?) used the a solution of soluble Antimony Trichloride in HCl aq : "Gore (1855) found that if a current of electricity is passed through a solution of antimony trichloride in hydrochloric acid---using an antimony anode, and a platinum cathode---an amorphous powder of specific gravity of 5.78 is deposited on the cathode." > As I posted this morning: > >> My table of gram equivalents for Antimony (Atomic wt. 121.76) and Chlorine (Atomic wt.35.457) >> gives 1.514 grams deposited per ampere-hour for Antimony, and 1.323 grams per ampere-hour for >> Chlorine. >> Assuming 6.0 volts cell potential the input power would be 6.0 watts or 6.0 joules per second > 0r 21,600 joule/hr for 1.514 grams of Antimony plated out, or 14,000 joule per plated-out gram. > >> The 84,000 joule per gram Explosive Antimony output, in addition to the energy recovered by >> recombining the plated-out Antimony with the liberated Chlorine to get back Antimony Trichloride >> SbCl3, sure looks O/U, doesn't it? > Thus there should always be Hydrogen liberated at the cathode that might "embed" in the reactive alpha-antimony ( 51Sb-121). This seems strikingly similar to some the reported O/U effects with hydrogen in 46Palladium-106 etc., in electrolysis experiments. Frederick > The situation can be modeled very simply by jamming a flexible > plastic ruler between the two faces of a large steel G clamp so > that the ruler takes on a curved shape. Pushing on the ruler > will induce a state of compression in material of the relatively > elastic ruler (compression strain energy) and a state of tension > in the relatively stiff clamp (tension strain energy). If the > ruler is pushed past the central position the tensile strain > energy of the stiff abutment phase is explosively released into > the ruler which whips across to mirror its starting position. > > The ruler material is being held together by one level of the > Beta-atmosphere/Casimir/ZPE. The abutments or G frame is being held > together by a deeper level of B/C/Z. All phase changes must involve > this kind of two level instability. > > > Interestingly enough, there was a discussion on one of the Groups > (it might even have been Vortex) about some bloke who claimed to > have found a mistake in the steam tables. As you might expect, > the traditional deluge of scorn was poured over his claim - > probably because it would have implied the non-conservation of > conventional energy to their blinkered way of thinking. > > In fact, he was probably correct and simply observing the effect > of harnessing some small degree of B/C/Z pressure. > > Cheers > > Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 25 12:25:01 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1PKOX6v015212; Fri, 25 Feb 2005 12:24:33 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1PKOQ1P015173; Fri, 25 Feb 2005 12:24:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 12:24:26 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Off Topic]: Anthropologist falsified data X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: ID = 909b8a8ff0cae19159d456a4b333f05c Reply-To: michael.foster excite.com From: "Michael Foster" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: michael.foster excite.com X-Mailer: PHP Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050225202416.25C63299E9 xprdmailfe22.nwk.excite.com> Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 15:24:16 -0500 (EST) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58066 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Wrote: > Nonsense. Some of my best friends are anthropologists. So are mine. They're the ones who told me about the Maya. I've read "Coming of Age in Samoa" and it describes behavior that the Samoans themselves were very upset about. This was not a language problem or a cultural disconnect, this was deliberate misrepresentation. I guess it depends on whom you wish to believe, Mead or the Samoans themselves. Whether you like Margaret Mead or not, the fact is the field of anthropology seems to have a greater history of fraud and wishful thinking than other fields of scientific endeavor. I just worry that some of this sort of thinking has spilled over into other disciplines. And yes, I'm sure you're right. I would probably tend to interpret an alien culture through my own beliefs and prejudices. But don't you think somebody would catch me at it if they were in the same field of study? M. _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 25 12:38:23 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1PKbw6v019595; Fri, 25 Feb 2005 12:37:58 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1PKbujh019583; Fri, 25 Feb 2005 12:37:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 12:37:56 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <007901c51b79$01232380$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: Cc: References: <20050225193944.30946299E6 xprdmailfe22.nwk.excite.com> Subject: Re: [Off Topic]: Anthropologist falsified data Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 12:31:36 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58067 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: http://www.museumofhoaxes.com/tasadays.html > Perhaps the most glaring example of this sort of behavior > in recent times was the "discovery" the Tasaday tribe > in a remote location of the Philippines. There was a > major publicity rollout and the anthropologists responsible > assigned to them all the politically correct behavior > anyone could dream of. I don't think it was "political" necessarily, as much as a kind of nostalgic anxiety that isolated primitive cultures are getting pushed to the brink of extinction. I was reading an interesting piece the other day on the "Selling of the Last Savage" http://www.michaelbehar.com/outside/sellinglastsavage.html Many of the so-called "soft" sciences were considered "fringe," even in my college days, and anthropology was right in there because some of the higher profile disciples (not Mead) arguable did not receive the same rigorous training which is the norm today, nor did some of them even care about the "scientific method" as much as they should have - yet they were getting bigger headlines than others who trained with more demanding subjects.... and, of course, a few did look at science more like a Safari, or an Indiana Jones adventure. But, there is a big dose of jealousy from the more rigorous sciences in there somewhere... all of us would like to have an adventure, get paid for it, and also get recognition and our 15 seconds of fame... and many girl-geeks who are as arguably unattractive as Margaret was, would certainly love to think about having the attention of a lot of savage studs, get paid for it, and also get recognition the15 seconds of fame. OTOH, rightly or wrongly, she will go down in someone's history as a great scientist... I think rightly but for the wrong reasons. http://www.amnh.org/exhibitions/expeditions/treasure_fossil/Treasures/Margaret_Mead/mead.html?cults ... just as Amelia will go down in history as a great "aviatrix", when everyone who saw her fly and crash airplane after airplane (the tales are legendary around Oakland) got a huge laugh out of the spectacle. There is inequality among sexes but it is not so simple as to be corrected by a quota system. The war in Iraq has taught us that well-trained women pilots make excellent aviators, with fewer (hormonal) distractions than their male counterparts, and if Amelia had not been their role model, early-on... rightly or wrongly (given her questionable flying ability), then who knows... they might all still be WAACs. I don't think it was the same story you mention about the savages, but it was in this same time frame that some magazine ran a cover story... a little less politically correct shall we say, but there was a stone age tribesman like this one in the article above, but grinning like the cat who just ate the pet canary, with the caption underneath: "I ate Michael Rockefeller" which is more in keeping... burp... with the kind of sensationalism that the soft sciences once needed in order to make them appear to the public as rigorous. Substituting bravery for brilliance. To add my piece of obligatory P.C. let me say that few male scientists have been both as brave and as brilliant as Madame Curie, and that is what equality in the sciences should be all about. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 25 12:54:31 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1PKsC3f024885; Fri, 25 Feb 2005 12:54:16 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1PKsAFL024860; Fri, 25 Feb 2005 12:54:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 12:54:10 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050225154110.029f1e28 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 15:53:59 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Off Topic]: Anthropologist falsified data In-Reply-To: <20050225202416.25C63299E9 xprdmailfe22.nwk.excite.com> References: <20050225202416.25C63299E9 xprdmailfe22.nwk.excite.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_25096500==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58068 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_25096500==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Michael Foster wrote: > > Nonsense. Some of my best friends are anthropologists. > >So are mine. They're the ones who told me about the Maya. >I've read "Coming of Age in Samoa" and it describes behavior >that the Samoans themselves were very upset about. You are right about that! However, people everywhere indulge in behavior that other people in their culture are very upset about. Mead loved to describe such behavior. She was like Kinsley -- she talked a great deal about common behavior right here in the US of A that some people find upsetting. I realize it was portrayed in "Coming of Age . . ." as socially acceptable. She did that wrong, which I think was naive. But in my experience, what is socially acceptable to young men & women is not always equally acceptable to their parents, and for some reason when those young people grow middle-aged they often change their minds. Even our esteemed president seems to have undergone a change of heart regarding the use of "recreational drugs." >This was not a language problem or a cultural disconnect, this >was deliberate misrepresentation. It is *always* a language problem. Anyone who tells you otherwise is like a soldier who claims he is not frightened in battle. When you consider how difficult it is to represent an alien culture in the first place, making a deliberate misrepresentation would be a remarkable accomplishment. It is like the difference between newspaper reporting and writing a convincing novel. >I guess it depends on >whom you wish to believe, Mead or the Samoans themselves. Which Samoans? Try asking a bunch of Americans about their values and their sex life. To say that you will get mixed answers hardly begins to tell the tale. - Jed --=====================_25096500==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Michael Foster wrote:

> Nonsense. Some of my best friends are anthropologists.

So are mine.  They're the ones who told me about the Maya.
I've read "Coming of Age in Samoa" and it describes behavior
that the Samoans themselves were very upset about.

You are right about that! However, people everywhere indulge in behavior that other people in their culture are very upset about. Mead loved to describe such behavior. She was like Kinsley -- she talked a great deal about common behavior right here in the US of A that some people find upsetting. I realize it was portrayed in "Coming of Age . . ." as socially acceptable. She did that wrong, which I think was naive. But in my experience, what is socially acceptable to young men & women is not always equally acceptable to their parents, and for some reason when those young people grow middle-aged they often change their minds. Even our esteemed president seems to have undergone a change of heart regarding the use of "recreational drugs."


This was not a language problem or a cultural disconnect, this
was deliberate misrepresentation.

It is *always* a language problem. Anyone who tells you otherwise is like a soldier who claims he is not frightened in battle. When you consider how difficult it is to represent an alien culture in the first place, making a deliberate misrepresentation would be a remarkable accomplishment. It is like the difference between newspaper reporting and writing a convincing novel.


I guess it depends on
whom you wish to believe, Mead or the Samoans themselves.

Which Samoans? Try asking a bunch of Americans about their values and their sex life. To say that you will get mixed answers hardly begins to tell the tale.

- Jed
--=====================_25096500==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 25 14:14:54 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1PMETef022873; Fri, 25 Feb 2005 14:14:29 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1PMEQDc022851; Fri, 25 Feb 2005 14:14:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 14:14:26 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <00f201c51b86$789f4a80$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: Subject: Re: Arie De Geus Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 14:08:00 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58069 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: My apologies for not doing a little more online research earlier. It appears that this "alternative" hydrino theory, they are calling it "fractional hydrogen" is still quite active, has a corporate identity in that hotbed of high-tech, South Carolina, and even has a (primitive) website. http://www.amdgscientific.com/ >From the site: AMDG Scientific Corporation is a Research & Development Company named after its founder and scientist Arie M. DeGeus, who discovered novel energy generating technologies, all of which feature 'over-unity' energy production. [unfortunate that by using his initials for the corporate name, they have confused this company with at least 3 others which use the identical name] TECHNOLOGIES After years of research and development, a sequence of ever improving lab set-ups for these technologies has led to the recent start of activities to construct proto-types of various power generating systems. A plasma process, which makes use of a 'nuclear catalyst' and one or more solid metals, converts hydrogen into so called 'fractional hydrogen', the electron of which has lower energy states than the 'ground-state'. Energy becomes available as relatively low energy photons (extreme UV to Soft X-ray). Both heat and electricity can be produced. This process has an energy 'over-unity' of better than 3/1, which was twice certified by Applied Technical Systems Inc. (ATS), of Marietta (Atlanta), GA; report # M 21774. Application: General power generation, typically for industry and where both heat and electrical power are useful. Among the personnel is listed a Joseph P. Phelan. I don't know if it is the same person, but a former Enron exec had that name. More important is what is omitted. I see no evidence that a prototype has been built. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 25 14:19:07 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1PMImef024822; Fri, 25 Feb 2005 14:18:49 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1PMIk7c024793; Fri, 25 Feb 2005 14:18:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 14:18:46 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=gvlnZMJ2463K9enhyqG29iUBuDgMcIZQIdL4h2J/6JfOtRf0GI0VRtrer49igqtomZ8mco6IY/rdnBFEcPg1ltsIZ/azK/C6/Flw68ygz72S5SJMguRMi8McKbzSfFl6EhVHjNTDUNdbqnqhAD4baUahtCl/OeGXlENP9eqQ0xY= ; Message-ID: <20050225221814.9877.qmail web51710.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 14:18:14 -0800 (PST) From: Terry Blanton Subject: Taming Gravity To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-341341863-1109369894=:9725" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58070 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --0-341341863-1109369894=:9725 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I can't tell how old this article is; but, I've never seen it before: http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/research/1281736.html Nice pie, Dr. Li! --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. --0-341341863-1109369894=:9725 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
I can't tell how old this article is; but, I've never seen it before:
 
 
Nice pie, Dr. Li!

Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. --0-341341863-1109369894=:9725-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 25 14:29:50 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1PMTRef028399; Fri, 25 Feb 2005 14:29:27 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1PMTP9Y028379; Fri, 25 Feb 2005 14:29:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 14:29:25 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <410-220052525222928780 ix.netcom.com> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: aki ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.1.47.0 (Windows) From: "Akira Kawasaki" To: "vortex-l" Subject: FW: WHAT'S NEW Friday, February 25, 2005 Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 14:29:28 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: c4cc7f5f697e8746f66dc3a06d5924d85add5414a2de2037edf265e051c515caa7ce0e8f8d31aa3f350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 216.175.101.131 Resent-Message-ID: <0H8Z.A.W7G.Eb6HCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58071 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > From: What's New > To: Akira Kawasaki Date: 2/25/2005 12:54:38 PM Subject: WHAT'S NEW Friday, February 25, 2005 WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 25 Feb 05 Washington, DC 1. MISSILE DEFENSE: CANADIAN PRIME MINISTER FINALLY DECIDES: "NO!" With US interceptor missiles refusing to come out of their silos, http://www.aps.org/WN/index.cfm, Canadian Prime Minister Paul Martin did the same, declaring that Canada would concentrate its defense efforts elsewhere. President Bush had personally lobbied the PM since August to join the US in ballistic missile defense http://www.aps.org/WN/WN04/wn082704.cfm. Martin appeared to be leaning toward joining, agreeing in August to share information on incoming missiles, but the plan had virtually no public support. 2. JUICED: CANSECO WANT'S A POLYGRAPH EXAM ON PAY-PER-VIEW TV. Why should science concern itself with baseball's steroid-enhanced bad boy? It shouldn't. But the best-selling author of Juiced wants to prove he's telling the truth about those other over-paid, bulging, mesomorphic icons who used the needle. For telling the truth, Canseco thinks he should make a lot of money. He believes the polygraph detects lies. So does Rep. Joe Barton (D-TX), chair of the House Energy Committee, who thinks we could round up all those spies at Los Alamos http://www.aps.org/WN/WN04/wn073004.cfm. Does anyone pay any attention to what science says? For 20 years WN has reported overwhelming scientific evidence that polygraphs can't tell a lie from the sex act. Does anyone listen to science? 3. ABC: PETER JENNINGS REPORTS ON "UFOs SEEING IS BELIEVING." Yawn! ABC advertised it as "a fresh look at the UFO phenomenon," but there was Stanton Friedman, author of Crash at Corona and a major creator of the highly-profitable Roswell myth. ABC called it, "the enduring mystery of Roswell." There was no mystery, but it was a gold mine, shamelessly exploited on TV documentaries, and nothing has changed. It ended with "one of the world's leading physicists," who looked a lot like Michio Kaku, saying "You simply cannot dismiss the possibility that some of these objects are from a civilization millions of years ahead of us in technology." Sigh. 4. SCIENCE MEETS SOCIETY: AAAS AND "NON-OVERLAPPING MAGISTERIA." On Saturday, six distinguished scholars solemnly discussed the late Stephen Jay Gould's idea that both science and religion have their place in a full life, but do not overlap. Those of us who are fortunate enough to have chosen science as a career have an obligation to share with the public what we learn about how the world works. Not because scientists have any claim to greater intellect or virtue, but because science is the only way we have of separating the truth from ideology, or fraud or foolishness. It pains me that some of us get so little gratification from this that they carry on a separate affair with this Magisteria person. THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND. Opinions are the author's and not necessarily shared by the University of Maryland, but they should be. --- Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.aps.org/WN To subscribe, send a blank e-mail to: From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 25 14:37:23 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1PMb6ef030907; Fri, 25 Feb 2005 14:37:07 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1PMb4XA030876; Fri, 25 Feb 2005 14:37:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 14:37:04 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050225173014.02af53c0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 17:36:47 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Off Topic]: Anthropologist falsified data In-Reply-To: <007901c51b79$01232380$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> References: <20050225193944.30946299E6 xprdmailfe22.nwk.excite.com> <007901c51b79$01232380$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58072 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: >To add my piece of obligatory P.C. let me say that few male >scientists have been both as brave and as brilliant as >Madame Curie . . . And not one was ever told by the Nobel committee: "Please don't come to pick up your Nobel prize. It would be unseemly after that affair you had lately." Curie was not fazed. She told them to mind their own business, and she showed up to collect the prize. At least, that's how I heard the story. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 25 15:02:46 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1PN2Kef007288; Fri, 25 Feb 2005 15:02:21 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1PN2HVn007266; Fri, 25 Feb 2005 15:02:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 15:02:17 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <011101c51b8d$29bfc6e0$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <20050225193944.30946299E6 xprdmailfe22.nwk.excite.com> <007901c51b79$01232380$d0bcfea9@jonesb9pacbell> <6.2.0.14.2.20050225173014.02af53c0@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: [Off Topic]: Anthropologist falsified data Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 14:55:54 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58073 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote, > >To add my piece of obligatory P.C. let me say that few male > >scientists have been both as brave and as brilliant as > >Madame Curie . . . > And not one was ever told by the Nobel committee: "Please don't come to > pick up your Nobel prize. It would be unseemly after that affair you had > lately." Curie was not fazed. She told them to mind their own business, and > she showed up to collect the prize. At least, that's how I heard the story. I hope the affair was with a man at least...not that there's anything wrong with sisterhood. Since Margaret Mead's daughter, Mary Catherine Bateson (father :Gregory probably the best scientist of the New Guinea clique) wrote a memoir of her parents ("With a Daughter's Eye"), the lesbian connection between Mead and Ruth Benedict has been no secret amongst the critics of this field who use that as being further evidence that something is amiss. Get it? That is guilt by association, but what else is new. The two women's love affair survived Mead's three husbands, Benedict's failed marriage and later lesbian affairs ... wow.... and who says science is no fun. These anthropologists tend to practice what they see in the wilds, don't they.... Monkey see, money, do... or something like that. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 25 15:11:55 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1PNBTef010658; Fri, 25 Feb 2005 15:11:29 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1PNBRRN010632; Fri, 25 Feb 2005 15:11:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 15:11:27 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050225173907.02af6cf0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 18:10:36 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: FW: WHAT'S NEW Friday, February 25, 2005 In-Reply-To: <410-220052525222928780 ix.netcom.com> References: <410-220052525222928780 ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58074 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Robert L. Park wrote: > world works. Not because scientists have any claim to greater > intellect or virtue, but because science is the only way we have > of separating the truth from ideology, or fraud or foolishness. Yo! Robert: Philosophers figured out how to do that a few thousand years before science was invented. Science is a subset of philosophy, which is why it used to be called "natural philosophy." Many working scientists today -- including you -- are inept in applied logic and identifying logical fallacies. It is astounding how often you make the elementary errors described (and named) by the ancient Greek and Romans. Police detectives, mechanical engineers and computer programmers share the legacy of ancient philosophy just as much as scientists do, and many of them seem more skilled at applying it. See: http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/ Read it and weep. Of the top 20 traps on this list, the only one Park does not regularly fall into is #6, "Appeal to Consequences of a Belief." He would not recognize the others if they bit him on the butt. Trying to do science without a firm grounding in classic logic is like trying to do physics without algebra. It is unfortunate that the ancient philosophers did not apply their skills to explicating physical reality with the experimental method. I think it simply never occurred to them to do so, until Francis Bacon came along. The intellectual tools were ready 2,000 years ago, and scientists are not the only ones who finally took them up and used them in their daily work. The same goes for math and algebra. If math is somehow intrinsically enlightening (because it teaches rigor, let us say), you may be sure it has enlightened accountants and programmers just as much as it has scientists. There is nothing privileged or particularly compelling about the truths revealed by science. It just happens these truths tend to be about nature rather than, say, accounting, or object oriented programming. Scientists are certainly no better at detecting fraud than accountants are. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 25 15:23:44 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1PNNRef014956; Fri, 25 Feb 2005 15:23:32 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1PNNOBL014933; Fri, 25 Feb 2005 15:23:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 15:23:24 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: <33c12309-66e6-4e56-8a2f-b2f6dfee0730> Message-ID: <013101c51b90$f220bec0$9c7cccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: Subject: Hydrinos in CF Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 18:22:52 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_012E_01C51B67.04F629B0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58075 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_012E_01C51B67.04F629B0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The notion that BLP reactions may contribure to observed excess heat in = CF cells has been making the rounds, and it is something to watch for. I = want caution about unbounded speculation.=20 First, CF cells using potassium carbonate as an electrolyte may produce = BLP reactions with either D2O or H2O. That was Mills' first experimental = choice. It is the K+ ion which is the catalyst. K+++ may be produced in = plasma electrolysis cells. O++ is a catalyst, as is H itself in a = three-body reaction. The reaction rates may be quite low, but so are the = heat signatures.=20 Some have speculated that very shrunken hydrinos may take on a = neutron-like character and intiate a special form of nuclear reactions. = While Mills has postulated 1/137 hydrinos, I don't think anything past = 1/7 has been detected with any certainty.=20 Speculation is fine, but it also proper to temper it with the current = experimental observaitons. Mike Carrell ------=_NextPart_000_012E_01C51B67.04F629B0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The notion that BLP reactions may = contribure to=20 observed excess heat in CF cells has been making the rounds, and it is = something=20 to watch for. I want caution about unbounded speculation.
 
First, CF cells using potassium = carbonate as an=20 electrolyte may produce BLP reactions with either D2O or H2O. That was = Mills'=20 first experimental choice. It is the K+ ion which is the catalyst. K+++ = may be=20 produced in plasma electrolysis cells. O++ is a catalyst, as is H itself = in a=20 three-body reaction. The reaction rates may be quite low, but so are the = heat=20 signatures.
 
Some have speculated that very shrunken = hydrinos=20 may take on a neutron-like character and intiate a special form of = nuclear=20 reactions. While Mills has postulated 1/137 hydrinos, I don't think = anything=20 past 1/7 has been detected with any certainty.
 
Speculation is fine, but it also proper = to temper=20 it with the current experimental observaitons.
 
Mike Carrell
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_012E_01C51B67.04F629B0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 25 15:31:29 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1PNUsef018241; Fri, 25 Feb 2005 15:30:54 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1PNUelc018188; Fri, 25 Feb 2005 15:30:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 15:30:40 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050225181526.02be5610 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 18:30:03 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Off Topic]: Anthropologist falsified data In-Reply-To: <011101c51b8d$29bfc6e0$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> References: <20050225193944.30946299E6 xprdmailfe22.nwk.excite.com> <007901c51b79$01232380$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> <6.2.0.14.2.20050225173014.02af53c0 pop.mindspring.com> <011101c51b8d$29bfc6e0$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_34476500==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58076 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_34476500==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Jones Beene wrote: >I hope the affair was with a man at least...not that there's >anything wrong with sisterhood. Worse! It was with a physicist. Imagine being attracted to physicists. No wonder they accused her of being a cold fish (when they were not saying she was a shameless hussy). See: http://www.aip.org/history/curie/scandal2.htm And the person who advised her not to come to the ceremony was Svante Arrhenius, the great electrochemist who spent years being shunned and denigrated for the cardinal sins of brilliance & originality. His granddaughter Karen Caldwell played a walk-on role in cold fusion, described by Beaudette on p. 147. As told by Fleischmann: "After the press conference, Dr. Caldwell came up to us and said, 'well when my grandfather proposed electrolytic disassociation, he was dismissed from the University. At least that won't happen to you.' I said to her, 'but you are entirely mistaken. We shall be dismissed as well.'" And so they were. Dismissed, despised and driven into exile. Remember kiddies: that is what you get for being right! - Jed --=====================_34476500==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Jones Beene wrote:

I hope the affair was with a man at least...not that there's
anything wrong with sisterhood.

Worse! It was with a physicist. Imagine being attracted to physicists. No wonder they accused her of being a cold fish (when they were not saying she was a shameless hussy). See:

http://www.aip.org/history/curie/scandal2.htm

And the person who advised her not to come to the ceremony was Svante Arrhenius, the great electrochemist who spent years being shunned and denigrated for the cardinal sins of brilliance & originality. His granddaughter Karen Caldwell played a walk-on role in cold fusion, described by Beaudette on p. 147. As told by Fleischmann:

"After the press conference, Dr. Caldwell came up to us and said, 'well when my grandfather proposed electrolytic disassociation, he was dismissed from the University. At least that won't happen to you.' I said to her, 'but you are entirely mistaken. We shall be dismissed as well.'"

And so they were. Dismissed, despised and driven into exile. Remember kiddies: that is what you get for being right!

- Jed
--=====================_34476500==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 25 18:23:37 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1Q2NIef015131; Fri, 25 Feb 2005 18:23:19 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1Q2NFhA015110; Fri, 25 Feb 2005 18:23:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 18:23:15 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <005401c51baa$25206f00$fec263d8 com> From: "Ed Malone" To: References: <20050225221814.9877.qmail web51710.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Taming Gravity Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 18:23:20 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0051_01C51B67.15B6A540" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58077 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0051_01C51B67.15B6A540 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I saw this over 4 years ago when it was new edition of pm. I heard on = radio show that Dr Ning is not been heard from and last anyone heard was = that she went to somewhere in china. It sounds like she was coerced or = forced to or payed off maybe. Richard Hoagland and Timothy Ventura said = that on that show. I wonder what happened. I wonder where we would be = now if then in oct of 2000 she and her freinds got the needed funding, = investing.=20 Ed ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Terry Blanton=20 To: vortex-l eskimo.com=20 Sent: Friday, February 25, 2005 2:18 PM Subject: Taming Gravity I can't tell how old this article is; but, I've never seen it before: http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/research/1281736.html Nice pie, Dr. Li! -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. ------=_NextPart_000_0051_01C51B67.15B6A540 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I saw this over 4 years ago when it was = new edition=20 of pm.  I heard on radio show that Dr Ning is not been heard from = and last=20 anyone heard was that she went to somewhere in china.  It sounds = like she=20 was coerced or forced to or payed off maybe.  Richard Hoagland and = Timothy=20 Ventura said that on that show.  I wonder what happened.  I = wonder=20 where we would be now if then in oct of 2000 she and her freinds got the = needed=20 funding, investing.
 
Ed
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Terry=20 Blanton
Sent: Friday, February 25, 2005 = 2:18=20 PM
Subject: Taming Gravity

I can't tell how old this article is; but, I've never seen it=20 before:
 
ht= tp://www.popularmechanics.com/science/research/1281736.html
 
Nice pie, Dr. Li!

Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo!=20 Mail - Helps protect you from nasty = viruses. ------=_NextPart_000_0051_01C51B67.15B6A540-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 25 19:18:14 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1Q3Hmef032616; Fri, 25 Feb 2005 19:17:48 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1Q3HhPd032584; Fri, 25 Feb 2005 19:17:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 19:17:43 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050226031353.006ada78 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 03:13:53 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Arie De Geus Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58078 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 02:08 pm 25-02-05 -0800, you wrote: >My apologies for not doing a little more online research >earlier. > >It appears that this "alternative" hydrino theory, they are >calling it "fractional hydrogen" is still quite active, has >a corporate identity in that hotbed of high-tech, South >Carolina, and even has a (primitive) website. > >http://www.amdgscientific.com/ > >From the site: >AMDG Scientific Corporation is a Research & Development >Company named after its founder and scientist Arie M. >DeGeus, who discovered novel energy generating technologies, >all of which feature 'over-unity' energy production. > >[unfortunate that by using his initials for the corporate >name, they have confused this company with at least 3 others >which use the identical name] A small point which may be of some interest and explain why there are several companies which go by these initials. A.M.D.G. stands for Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam which is latin for To the Greater Glory of God. The Latin phrase was a favorite of St. Ignatius of Loyola, founder of the Society of Jesus, i.e. the Jesuits. It is used routinely by His Holiness, Pope John Paul II. In his writings, on the top left of every page he prints the letters AMDG. The holy abbreviation has been used throughout the ages by many. For example, the music composer Johann Sebastian Bach was known to write on his finished works, either above or below his own name, the initials "AMDG." I suppose if my parents had been educated by the Jesuits ("give me a child before the age of seven and I will give you a catholic for life.") then I might well have been named, Anthony Michael David Grimer But they weren't and I wasn't ;-) Cheers Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 25 20:09:45 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1Q49Uef016892; Fri, 25 Feb 2005 20:09:34 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1Q49RUa016869; Fri, 25 Feb 2005 20:09:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 20:09:27 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <410-220052626485770 ix.netcom.com> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: aki ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.1.47.0 (Windows) From: "Akira Kawasaki" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Off Topic :- ) : March 24, 005 APS Cold Fusion Session in L.A. Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 20:08:57 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_01BC2B74.89D1CCC0" X-ELNK-Trace: c4cc7f5f697e8746f66dc3a06d5924d8a0c66fd16770fa01fb8689bd3116728a99f37241381ec17c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 216.175.74.247 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58079 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BC2B74.89D1CCC0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Feb. 25, 2005 Vortex, The APS is having its March national meeting in Los Angeles from March 21- 25, 2005. The Cold Fusion Session U-33 is chaired by Scott Chubb of the Navel Research Laboratory. The session runs from 8:00 AM to 10:36 AM Thursday March 24, 2005. I have attached a plain text formatted program of the session. The names appearing should be familiar to Vortexians. I may attend to video-tape the short session --- after all, it's in my home town and I did report on the first APS session that covered CF here also a few year back. The program and session's presentation Abstracts can be found if you dig into their March meeting announcement. -ak- ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Feb. 25, 2005
 
Vortex,
 
The APS  is having its March national meeting in Los Angeles from March 21- 25, 2005. The Cold Fusion Session U-33 is chaired by Scott Chubb of the Navel Research Laboratory. The session runs from 8:00 AM to 10:36 AM Thursday March 24, 2005.
I have attached a plain text formatted program of the session. The names appearing should be familiar to Vortexians. I may attend to video-tape the short session --- after all, it's in my home town and I did report on the first APS session that covered CF here also a few year back.
The program and session's presentation Abstracts can be found if you dig into their March meeting announcement.
 
-ak-
 

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(32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 04:27:12 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: [Off Topic]: Anthropologist falsified data Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58080 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 06:30 pm 25-02-05 -0500, Jed wrote: > And so they were. Dismissed, despised and driven into exile. > > Remember kiddies: that is what you get for being right! > >- Jed Not necessarily, I'm happy to say. 8-) Many years ago when working at Building Research I was a member of the joint BRS/Pilkinton Bros. Steering Committee controlling the development of Glass Reinforced Cladding Panels. The glass fibre (Z Glass), which had been invented by a chemist at BRS, contained zirconium and, even uncoated, was ten times more resistant to OPC alkali attack than normal E Glass. Unfortunately it really needed to be 100 times more resistant as I pointed out, ad nauseum, to my bosses. When I saw the manufacturers manipulating the interpretation of BRS research data I began to doubt that the development would be successful. When the Pilkinton committee chairman (PB's "product champion") suddenly changed the design philosophy from ductile to brittle because our long term tests showed a disastrous drop in ultimate tensile strain (1 percent to 0.03 percent in 5 years) my doubts grew more serious. When on American Independence Day, 1974 the Chairman flew into a rage because I refused to go along with his wishful thinking about the shape of the deterioration curve, and screamed. "I'll hound you Grimer! I'll hound you! I'll hound you!" before bursting into tears. I knew the project was heading for the rocks. The committee was dissolved and a new committee was formed to which, needless to say, I was not invited [thank goodness 8-) ]. I resolved to start inspecting cladding panels after 5 years when they would have lost 97 percent of their strain capacity. Sure enough, at 5 years the panels on the 170 buildings I surveyed had started to crack up and had to be extensively replaced. The largest manufacturer of the panels went into liquidation and was taken over by Pilkintons. The three next largest went bust or dropped manufacture. I suppose one might say that, in a sense, I was exiled from the committee - but that's rather like being thrown into the briar bush, eh! Cheers, Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 25 20:43:13 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1Q4geef027459; Fri, 25 Feb 2005 20:42:44 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1Q4gcZh027444; Fri, 25 Feb 2005 20:42:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 20:42:38 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050226043852.006b8d08 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 04:38:52 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Taming Gravity Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58081 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 02:18 pm 25-02-05 -0800, you wrote: >I can't tell how old this article is; but, I've never seen it before: > >http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/research/1281736.html > >Nice pie, Dr. Li! Good article. Clear explanation. The best article I've seen on "anti-grav"; or to be more accurate, counteracting the force of gravity. Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 25 21:07:45 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1Q57Cef003098; Fri, 25 Feb 2005 21:07:12 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1Q5720j003014; Fri, 25 Feb 2005 21:07:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 21:07:02 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Arie De Geus Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 00:08:07 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-reply-to: <2.2.32.20050226031353.006ada78 pop.freeserve.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58082 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Thanks Frank, With God as his co-pilot, he can not fail. I seem to remember another Jesuit saying, "It is better to ask forgiveness than permission" but I could be paraphrasing. More from Arie De Geus, this one seems to have granted. You'll forgive the artificial portugese-english x-lation. Any idea what this could be? (21) Nº of the Order: Pi0205594-5 (22) Dates of the Deposit: 20/12/2002 (51) Classification: H02N 11/00 H02N 11/00 Description not registered in cadastre. (54) Heading: METHOD TO DEVELOP The KINETIC ELECTRON ENERGY USING PERMANENT A MAGNETIC And ELECTROMAGNETIC COMBINATION De Campos (57) Summary: "METHOD TO DEVELOP The KINETIC ELECTRON ENERGY USING PERMANENT A MAGNETIC And ELECTROMAGNETIC COMBINATION De Campos". Understanding a combination basically De Campos magnetic and electromagnetic permanent, this increase being caused by the alternation of an electromagnetic field being this inserted in the borders of a permanent magnetic field, what it promotes said electrons to be moved of a trajectory in a certain direction, which has a certain diameter of "pipe spiral", for another trajectory, in a contrary direction, which is come close to an indented spiral, and that it presents a diameter of "developed pipe spiral" in comparison with that one of the previous direction, being that the "volume" of said electrons after increases the trajectory in the contrary direction and after that it decreases again until the return to the point of first direction, being that said electrons they continue to move in a trajectory such as a diameter of "pipe spiral", with approach diameter of said first diameter of "pipe spiral"; being that said volume decreased of said electrons they are become into additional kinetic energy, this energy being accumulating in consequence of the successive oscillatory movement, reason for which said electrons, after to get high levels of kinetic energy, is capable to load an electric capacitor, that in turn, when loaded enough, it can produce chain electric for varied intentions. (71) Name of the Depositor: Arie Melis de Geus (US) (72) Name of the Inventor: ARIE MELIS OF GEUS (74) Name of the Solicitor: Globbal Marks and Patents S/C Ltda PUBLICATIONS N° RPI Dates RPI Forwarding Complement of the Forwarding 1752 03/08/2004 3,1 Description Forwarding 3,1 Publication of the Certifyd Order of Patent or of of Addition of Invention. Publication of the deposited order (Art. 30 of the LPI), being able to be acquired in the Bank of Patents of the Center of Documentation and Technological Information of the INPI - CEDIN - the brochure with the descriptive report, claims, drawings and summary of the order, for who if to interest. Not being the required examination, by the depositor or any interested party, in the stated period of 36 (thirty and six) months of the deposit, the order will be filed. Published the filling of the order, it could be required, in the stated period of 60 (sixty) days, its desarquivamento. Not being required the desarquivamento in the stated period previously cited, the order will be considered definitively filed. 1679 11/03/2003 2,1 Description Forwarding 2,1 Notification of Deposit of Certifyd Order of Patent or of of Addition of Invention. Notification of deposit of certifyd order of patent or of of invention addition. The patent order will be kept in secrecy during 18 (eighteen) months to count of the date of the priority oldest. Passed this stated period, will be published for public knowledge. The depositor can, however, to require the anticipation of the publication. The stated period of secrecy of 18 (eighteen) months for the Certifyd order of of Addition of Invencăo is counted of the date of the deposit of the main order. When publicaçao of the main order will have occurred, the Certifyd order of of Addition of Invencăo immediately will be published. The deposits are assigned in accordance with the required nature: Invention (PI), Model of Utilidade (MU) and Certifyd of Addition of Invencăo (C). The order deposited through the PCT is notified in it subitem 1.3. Data brought up to date up to 22/02/2005 - Nº of the Magazine: 1781 -----Original Message----- From: Grimer [mailto:f.grimer grimer2.freeserve.co.uk] Sent: Friday, February 25, 2005 10:14 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Arie De Geus At 02:08 pm 25-02-05 -0800, you wrote: >My apologies for not doing a little more online research >earlier. > >It appears that this "alternative" hydrino theory, they are >calling it "fractional hydrogen" is still quite active, has >a corporate identity in that hotbed of high-tech, South >Carolina, and even has a (primitive) website. > >http://www.amdgscientific.com/ > >From the site: >AMDG Scientific Corporation is a Research & Development >Company named after its founder and scientist Arie M. >DeGeus, who discovered novel energy generating technologies, >all of which feature 'over-unity' energy production. > >[unfortunate that by using his initials for the corporate >name, they have confused this company with at least 3 others >which use the identical name] A small point which may be of some interest and explain why there are several companies which go by these initials. A.M.D.G. stands for Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam which is latin for To the Greater Glory of God. The Latin phrase was a favorite of St. Ignatius of Loyola, founder of the Society of Jesus, i.e. the Jesuits. It is used routinely by His Holiness, Pope John Paul II. In his writings, on the top left of every page he prints the letters AMDG. The holy abbreviation has been used throughout the ages by many. For example, the music composer Johann Sebastian Bach was known to write on his finished works, either above or below his own name, the initials "AMDG." I suppose if my parents had been educated by the Jesuits ("give me a child before the age of seven and I will give you a catholic for life.") then I might well have been named, Anthony Michael David Grimer But they weren't and I wasn't ;-) Cheers Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 25 21:40:09 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1Q5duef012903; Fri, 25 Feb 2005 21:39:57 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1Q5dr2K012880; Fri, 25 Feb 2005 21:39:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 21:39:53 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "John Steck" To: "Vortex" Subject: RE: [Off Topic]: Anthropologist falsified data Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 23:41:11 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <20050225202416.25C63299E9 xprdmailfe22.nwk.excite.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58083 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: No sense in maligning anthropology as a unique safe harbor for hubris... denial, institutionalized fraud, & wishful thinking is pervasive in all university cultures IMO (students and teachers). It's the only place it can exist and thrive because reality is always kept at arms length. Can you give an example where anything close to "tenure" exists in the open market place? Only in the utopian fantasy land of academia can such a thing be venerated. -john -----Original Message----- From: Michael Foster [mailto:michael.foster excite.com] Whether you like Margaret Mead or not, the fact is the field of anthropology seems to have a greater history of fraud and wishful thinking than other fields of scientific endeavor. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 26 00:07:21 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1Q877ef031589; Sat, 26 Feb 2005 00:07:08 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1Q875cR031569; Sat, 26 Feb 2005 00:07:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 00:07:05 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050226080311.0069d204 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 08:03:11 +0000 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: RE: Arie De Geus Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58084 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:08 am 26-02-05 -0500, Keith wrote: > Thanks Frank, > > With God as his co-pilot, he can not fail. > I seem to remember another Jesuit saying, >"It is better to ask forgiveness than permission" > but I could be paraphrasing. > > More from Arie De Geus; this one seems to have been > granted. You'll forgive the artificial Portugese-English > x-lation. Any idea what this could be? > Well, I'm quite happy to speculate. ;-) I would guess that AMDG has realised magnetic flux lines are not all the same. They are not the Euclidean lines as commonly depicted but are tiny jet streams which have a certain finite diameter. Presumably the diameter of the permanent magnets and the electro magnets are different. Lets say that the electro magnets have flux tube diameters in the pico range and permanent magnets have flux tube diameters in the zepto range. By combining the two in the way he does it would appear that one can develop considerable strain energy in the magnetic field. After all, a normal magnetic field is simply the difference between the fields of electrons pointing in one direction and electrons pointing in the opposite direction so the possibility of complex fields has always been there. What is new is the idea of scale. This seems to suggest, for example, that the magnetic fields produced by coils having different diameters of wire are in fact different in fineness, albeit equal in magnitude. In the light of the discovery of such phenomena as electron clustering this is not really so surprising. It is simply a question of extropy, or as AMDG might put it, Holy Orders. Cheers Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 26 08:28:06 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1QGRref032227; Sat, 26 Feb 2005 08:27:53 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1QGRksQ032143; Sat, 26 Feb 2005 08:27:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 08:27:46 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <004301c51bbb$6e03bc20$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" References: <4192667E.4070101 svn.net> <009001c4c75a$b5450540$d0bcfea9@jonesb9pacbell> <41927611.9070206@svn.net> <000f01c4c833$cd6a4e80$d0bcfea9@jonesb9pacbell> <4193DC47.4010302@svn.net> <002901c4c83d$d40d05c0$d0bcfea9@jonesb9pacbell> <4193EE42.2070101@svn.net> <003c01c4c84a$5ec01c00$d0bcfea9@jonesb9pacbell> <41941C92.20408@svn.net> Subject: Change is in the details Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 20:27:06 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58085 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Waxing philosophical on ZPE and the divine architecture of hidden reality this weekend (aren't all vortexians?) ... Item ... the day-to-day practice of earth-bound Architecture can tell us more about reality than is evident from graceful lines and soaring spaces. "God is in the details," --attributed to the architect Mies van der Rohe contrast that with "The devils is in the details," --attributed to the architect Buckminster Fuller Both views are correct in their own way, and the two are not really antithetical any more than are gender differences (OK maybe that's not such a good example of the point I am trying to make) but many dualities are demonstrative of the janus-like visage and the self-same-ness of ostensibly contradictory identities . Item. This should come as no surprise to anyone who has studied the science of "Chaos". After all, self-organization and extropy often coalesce from the chasm of randomness by means of a polarity-seed - a tiny bit attraction and repulsion, a tentative bifurcation expanding into the "butterfly effect" and the famous "Lorentz attractor." Therefore, it can be said that emergent dualities are the very sine-qua-non of extropy. Mirrored-contrast, as is seen in opposites is ubiquitous below the surface of reality, and there is a very good reason for that in the vacuum of space, wherein lies the original duality - the grand-daddy of them all, the epo pair. Aha, once again, it all gets back to the epo. We see this basic similarity-of-extremes reflected everywhere in life - specially in religion, science and government. Were the Catholic popes of the inquisition any less consumed with evil than the godless Stalin, for instance? There is no doubt that many cops would be crooks if they couldn't be cops. But roles can switch in mid stream, and north become south (as will likely happen on Gaia soon). But this probably cannot happen when one polar extreme looses its extropy potential and becomes so doused with entropy as to be intransigent - as in the profound pig-headedness of the modern-day Luddites like Bob Park and his ilk, which are in contrast to the brilliant and open-minded horizons of eminent scientists like Brian Josephson and the late Julian Schwinger. Item. What are architects trying to tell us that transcends beautiful spaces? It is not *just* that both the grandest constructions projects depends for their success on a plethora of seemingly insignificant components. But it is also that getting the details right can create the "emergent" property from simplicity itself. When one is able to reiterate enough simple tasks like the tiny off-on switches of digital electronics, then a beautiful picture can emerge on a computer screen. Or, as Bucky Fuller also opined on many occasions, "The whole becomes far greater than the sum of its parts." Chaos theory was a big thing on the pop-sci scene almost two decades ago, following James Glieck's book (1987) which precipitated a trend that is ongoing today. Are there any lessons to be had there for the vortex "Zepmeister" (the tamer of the "west-wind" aether) either in "Chaos" or in the properly organizing the "details," which can be interpreted here to mean imposing an intelligent structure on a spatial geometry of a few nanometers? Perhaps... (and finally getting to the point). The story which precipitated this flight into philosophical fancy and endless rambling can be found at: http://www.physorg.com/news2996.html If is kind of the nano-version of the old tuning-fork scheme. You remember, the old Keely talk about when one excited tuning fork, placed in a room of hundreds of thousands of resonant tuning forks, would cause all the other forks to resonate to a similar intensity, thus multiplying the energy expressed by this assemblage into mechanical overunity. In the case of the team of Boston University physicists, led by Pritiraj Mohanty (thank Vishnu for foreign-born engineers), who developed the nanomechanical oscillator mentioned in the reference above, which set a record at for mechanical vibration of 1.49 gHz, when pushed to the limit. In this case, God is in the details. I find it immensely interesting, in reading the particulars, that the technique works at very **cold** temperature, not hot, and that the vibration in the vicinity of a spectrum where this particular observer is on record as expecting to finding OU - which is 1.42 Ghz. Are we getting closer to ZPE coherence, step-by-step and in fits-and-pieces? More later. Looks like I'm almost out of threadbare idioms for today... Jones ... the people who are crazy enough to think they can change the world, are often the ones who do." -- from "Think Different," an Apple Computer Ad From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 26 10:31:03 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1QIUjef016398; Sat, 26 Feb 2005 10:30:45 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1QIUhwO016390; Sat, 26 Feb 2005 10:30:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 10:30:43 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Change is in the details Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 13:31:55 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <004301c51bbb$6e03bc20$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: <1fhUB.A.CAE.TBMICB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58086 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Those looking for an overview of NEMS could do worse than to read this paper... http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/cond-mat/0502566 Fascinating stuff. The perfect sensor for time varying gravito-kinetic fields IMHO. K. -----Original Message----- From: Jones Beene [mailto:jonesb9 pacbell.net] Sent: Friday, February 25, 2005 11:27 PM To: vortex Subject: Change is in the details Waxing philosophical on ZPE and the divine architecture of hidden reality this weekend (aren't all vortexians?) ... Item ... the day-to-day practice of earth-bound Architecture can tell us more about reality than is evident from graceful lines and soaring spaces. "God is in the details," --attributed to the architect Mies van der Rohe contrast that with "The devils is in the details," --attributed to the architect Buckminster Fuller Both views are correct in their own way, and the two are not really antithetical any more than are gender differences (OK maybe that's not such a good example of the point I am trying to make) but many dualities are demonstrative of the janus-like visage and the self-same-ness of ostensibly contradictory identities . Item. This should come as no surprise to anyone who has studied the science of "Chaos". After all, self-organization and extropy often coalesce from the chasm of randomness by means of a polarity-seed - a tiny bit attraction and repulsion, a tentative bifurcation expanding into the "butterfly effect" and the famous "Lorentz attractor." Therefore, it can be said that emergent dualities are the very sine-qua-non of extropy. Mirrored-contrast, as is seen in opposites is ubiquitous below the surface of reality, and there is a very good reason for that in the vacuum of space, wherein lies the original duality - the grand-daddy of them all, the epo pair. Aha, once again, it all gets back to the epo. We see this basic similarity-of-extremes reflected everywhere in life - specially in religion, science and government. Were the Catholic popes of the inquisition any less consumed with evil than the godless Stalin, for instance? There is no doubt that many cops would be crooks if they couldn't be cops. But roles can switch in mid stream, and north become south (as will likely happen on Gaia soon). But this probably cannot happen when one polar extreme looses its extropy potential and becomes so doused with entropy as to be intransigent - as in the profound pig-headedness of the modern-day Luddites like Bob Park and his ilk, which are in contrast to the brilliant and open-minded horizons of eminent scientists like Brian Josephson and the late Julian Schwinger. Item. What are architects trying to tell us that transcends beautiful spaces? It is not *just* that both the grandest constructions projects depends for their success on a plethora of seemingly insignificant components. But it is also that getting the details right can create the "emergent" property from simplicity itself. When one is able to reiterate enough simple tasks like the tiny off-on switches of digital electronics, then a beautiful picture can emerge on a computer screen. Or, as Bucky Fuller also opined on many occasions, "The whole becomes far greater than the sum of its parts." Chaos theory was a big thing on the pop-sci scene almost two decades ago, following James Glieck's book (1987) which precipitated a trend that is ongoing today. Are there any lessons to be had there for the vortex "Zepmeister" (the tamer of the "west-wind" aether) either in "Chaos" or in the properly organizing the "details," which can be interpreted here to mean imposing an intelligent structure on a spatial geometry of a few nanometers? Perhaps... (and finally getting to the point). The story which precipitated this flight into philosophical fancy and endless rambling can be found at: http://www.physorg.com/news2996.html If is kind of the nano-version of the old tuning-fork scheme. You remember, the old Keely talk about when one excited tuning fork, placed in a room of hundreds of thousands of resonant tuning forks, would cause all the other forks to resonate to a similar intensity, thus multiplying the energy expressed by this assemblage into mechanical overunity. In the case of the team of Boston University physicists, led by Pritiraj Mohanty (thank Vishnu for foreign-born engineers), who developed the nanomechanical oscillator mentioned in the reference above, which set a record at for mechanical vibration of 1.49 gHz, when pushed to the limit. In this case, God is in the details. I find it immensely interesting, in reading the particulars, that the technique works at very **cold** temperature, not hot, and that the vibration in the vicinity of a spectrum where this particular observer is on record as expecting to finding OU - which is 1.42 Ghz. Are we getting closer to ZPE coherence, step-by-step and in fits-and-pieces? More later. Looks like I'm almost out of threadbare idioms for today... Jones ... the people who are crazy enough to think they can change the world, are often the ones who do." -- from "Think Different," an Apple Computer Ad From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 26 10:32:32 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1QIWDef016975; Sat, 26 Feb 2005 10:32:14 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1QIWATg016944; Sat, 26 Feb 2005 10:32:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 10:32:10 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050226183212.006a5e3c pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 18:32:12 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Change is in the details Resent-Message-ID: <8vJS0B.A.sIE.pCMICB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58087 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 08:27 pm 25-02-05 -0800, you wrote: >Waxing philosophical on ZPE and the divine architecture of >hidden reality this weekend (aren't all vortexians?) ... > >Item ... the day-to-day practice of earth-bound Architecture >can tell us more about reality than is evident from graceful >lines and soaring spaces. > >"God is in the details," > --attributed to the architect Mies van der Rohe > >contrast that with > >"The devils is in the details," > --attributed to the architect Buckminster Fuller > >Both views are correct in their own way, and the two are not >really antithetical any more than are gender differences (OK >maybe that's not such a good example of the point I am >trying to make) but many dualities are demonstrative of the >janus-like visage and the self-same-ness of ostensibly >contradictory identities >. >Item. This should come as no surprise to anyone who has >studied the science of "Chaos". After all, self-organization >and extropy often coalesce from the chasm of randomness by >means of a polarity-seed - a tiny bit attraction and >repulsion, a tentative bifurcation expanding into the >"butterfly effect" and the famous "Lorentz attractor." >Therefore, it can be said that emergent dualities are the >very sine-qua-non of extropy. Mirrored-contrast, as is seen >in opposites is ubiquitous below the surface of reality, and >there is a very good reason for that in the vacuum of space, >wherein lies the original duality - the grand-daddy of them >all, the epo pair. Aha, once again, it all gets back to the >epo. > >We see this basic similarity-of-extremes reflected >everywhere in life - specially in religion, science and >government. Were the Catholic popes of the inquisition any >less consumed with evil than the godless Stalin, for >instance? There is no doubt that many cops would be crooks >if they couldn't be cops. But roles can switch in mid >stream, and north become south (as will likely happen on >Gaia soon). But this probably cannot happen when one polar >extreme looses its extropy potential and becomes so doused >with entropy as to be intransigent - as in the profound >pig-headedness of the modern-day Luddites like Bob Park and >his ilk, which are in contrast to the brilliant and >open-minded horizons of eminent scientists like Brian >Josephson and the late Julian Schwinger. > >Item. What are architects trying to tell us that transcends >beautiful spaces? It is not *just* that both the grandest >constructions projects depends for their success on a >plethora of seemingly insignificant components. But it is >also that getting the details right can create the >"emergent" property from simplicity itself. When one is able >to reiterate enough simple tasks like the tiny off-on >switches of digital electronics, then a beautiful picture >can emerge on a computer screen. Or, as Bucky Fuller also >opined on many occasions, "The whole becomes far greater >than the sum of its parts." > >Chaos theory was a big thing on the pop-sci scene almost two >decades ago, following James Glieck's book (1987) which >precipitated a trend that is ongoing today. Are there any >lessons to be had there for the vortex "Zepmeister" (the >tamer of the "west-wind" aether) either in "Chaos" or in the >properly organizing the "details," which can be interpreted >here to mean imposing an intelligent structure on a spatial >geometry of a few nanometers? > >Perhaps... (and finally getting to the point). > >The story which precipitated this flight into philosophical >fancy and endless rambling can be found at: >http://www.physorg.com/news2996.html > >If is kind of the nano-version of the old tuning-fork >scheme. You remember, the old Keely talk about when one >excited tuning fork, placed in a room of hundreds of >thousands of resonant tuning forks, would cause all the >other forks to resonate to a similar intensity, thus >multiplying the energy expressed by this assemblage into >mechanical overunity. > >In the case of the team of Boston University physicists, led >by Pritiraj Mohanty (thank Vishnu for foreign-born >engineers), who developed the nanomechanical oscillator >mentioned in the reference above, which set a record at for >mechanical vibration of 1.49 gHz, when pushed to the limit. >In this case, God is in the details. I find it immensely >interesting, in reading the particulars, that the technique >works at very **cold** temperature, not hot, and that the >vibration in the vicinity of a spectrum where this >particular observer is on record as expecting to finding >OU - which is 1.42 Ghz. > >Are we getting closer to ZPE coherence, step-by-step and in >fits-and-pieces? > >More later. Looks like I'm almost out of threadbare idioms >for today... > >Jones > >... the people who are crazy enough to think they can change >the world, are often the ones who do." > > -- from "Think Different," an Apple Computer Ad I can see there's hope for you yet Monsieur Flambeau. ;-) Perhaps you have followed Chaplin's link to Glastonbury and the mystical significance of that weird Vesica Pisces coincidence is slowly filtering in. I can't believe that someone with your poetic sensitivities is entirely immune from such influence. ;-) Cheers, Frank ================================================ THE VESICA PISCES:- ------------------------------------------------ Two Circles share a common radius AB ( = 1 ) The intersecting circles create a Vesica Pisces. AB is the minor axis of this Vesica Pisces. CD is the major axis. CD intersects the minor axis at mutual midpoint E. The major axis (CD) = the square root of three PROOF: In right triangle (EBC), EB = 1/2 AB CB = AB = 1. Therefore: EB^2 + CE^2 = CB^2 (1/2)^2 + CE^2 = 1^2 CE^2 = 1 - 1/4 = 3/4 CE = (3^(1/2))/2 CE is 1/2 of the major axis CD 2.CE = CD CD = 3^(1/2) ================================================ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 26 10:42:19 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1QIfdef021196; Sat, 26 Feb 2005 10:41:43 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1QIfT5Q021056; Sat, 26 Feb 2005 10:41:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 10:41:29 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Arie De Geus Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 13:42:32 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.20050226080311.0069d204 pop.freeserve.net> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58088 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Rereading the translation this morning, I wonder if the device he is describing is a vacuum tube with permanent magnet and electromagnet elements. One can easily imagine seeing "pipe spiral" trajectories of the ballistic electrons given the right applied fields. Here's another grant, this one in 'Murica. Abstract of US4204799 A horizontal wind powered electrical generator is disclosed in which a horizontal reaction turbine is disposed within an augmentor cowling which extends downwind of the turbine. First stage curved stator blades interconnect the augmentor with the turbine cowling, and secondary stator blades are spaced downwind from said primary stator blades to extend inwardly from the augmentor to terminate short of the turbine cowling. These secondary stator blades have a greater angle of departure than the primary stator blades to increase the rotational velocity of the air at the expense of its axial velocity while permitting the axial velocity of the air moving inwardly of the secondary stator blades to be undiminished. A venturi-structured diffusor is carried by said augmentor in a downwind position to lower the pressure generally and assist the action of the secondary stator blades. -----Original Message----- From: Grimer [mailto:f.grimer grimer2.freeserve.co.uk] Sent: Saturday, February 26, 2005 3:03 AM To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: RE: Arie De Geus At 12:08 am 26-02-05 -0500, Keith wrote: > Thanks Frank, > > With God as his co-pilot, he can not fail. > I seem to remember another Jesuit saying, >"It is better to ask forgiveness than permission" > but I could be paraphrasing. > > More from Arie De Geus; this one seems to have been > granted. You'll forgive the artificial Portugese-English > x-lation. Any idea what this could be? > Well, I'm quite happy to speculate. ;-) I would guess that AMDG has realised magnetic flux lines are not all the same. They are not the Euclidean lines as commonly depicted but are tiny jet streams which have a certain finite diameter. Presumably the diameter of the permanent magnets and the electro magnets are different. Lets say that the electro magnets have flux tube diameters in the pico range and permanent magnets have flux tube diameters in the zepto range. By combining the two in the way he does it would appear that one can develop considerable strain energy in the magnetic field. After all, a normal magnetic field is simply the difference between the fields of electrons pointing in one direction and electrons pointing in the opposite direction so the possibility of complex fields has always been there. What is new is the idea of scale. This seems to suggest, for example, that the magnetic fields produced by coils having different diameters of wire are in fact different in fineness, albeit equal in magnitude. In the light of the discovery of such phenomena as electron clustering this is not really so surprising. It is simply a question of extropy, or as AMDG might put it, Holy Orders. Cheers Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 26 13:29:07 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1QLSjef020433; Sat, 26 Feb 2005 13:28:46 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1QLSg1U020405; Sat, 26 Feb 2005 13:28:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 13:28:42 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001f01c51c4a$b5609310$5e25e544 VINCE> From: "Vince Cockeram" To: References: Subject: Re: Practical application for BLP technology Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 13:32:44 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58089 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ---- Original Message ----- From: "thomas malloy" To: Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2005 12:03 AM > I contacted <> > I suggested using hydrinos to harden the interior of cannon barrels. <>.. I find it odd that BLP ignored me. Odd? Not at all. If Dr. Mills has done his homework it's already been thought of. Vince From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 26 13:58:46 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1QLwAef032656; Sat, 26 Feb 2005 13:58:14 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1QLw7ol032599; Sat, 26 Feb 2005 13:58:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 13:58:07 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <00a201c51c4e$24e2d740$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <2.2.32.20050226183212.006a5e3c pop.freeserve.net> Subject: Re: Change is in the details & DVC Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 13:57:19 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58090 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- > Perhaps you have followed Chaplin's link to Glastonbury and > the mystical significance of that weird Vesica Pisces And way beyond there, Frank .... And speaking of religious symbolism, there are a few observers not necessarily from the New Age, who imagine that many features of reality could be loose (or not so loose) metaphors - encoded by either the light-side or the dark-side (trickster) to awaken certain seers, as group consciousness evolves. Perhaps they are just meme-splices. Anyway, this persistent imagery was undoubtedly part of the attraction of "The Da Vinci Code"... Movie forthcoming, starring Tom Hanks. It will be a blockbuster, for sure. Book is addictive for the first 200 pages but on re-read it is almost silly in its use of contrived coincidence and layered, plagiarized BS. This is the kind of novel that always makes you feel violated and manipulated, perhaps months after reading (but definitely enjoying the first read) .... later realizing what ridiculous liberties were taken, at the expense of some fairly crass entertainment. Nevertheless, I wish I had thought of it first, after reading Michael Baigent's "Holy Blood, Holy Grail" ( with Henry Lincoln &Richard Leigh) many years ago, which is essentially what Dan Brown did. His other novels range from poor to terrible. He is probably one of the luckiest writers alive today IMO, in the sense of going so far on so little talent. And yet, this assessment does not mean that I didn't enjoy the first read and even recommend it to others. ...and will probably see the movie many times, if it is decent. In December, the National Geographic channel carried a special about the (borrowed) contention in DVC that Mary Magdalene was really the wife of Jesus. Brown mentions the Vesica and the more common symbol for Jesus, which appears in icon form on millions of bumpers across middle America as a fish shape, and in other less-proselytizing parts of the US as a fish with legs, and a Darwinian smirk. The shape (at 90 degree rotation) is obviously reminiscent of female genitalia, and that is what seems always to be glossed over in these accounts of its popularity as a symbol. If you turn the fish symbol for Christ on its side you essentially have a Vesica Pisces - it is a part of Sacred Geometry, but not any more so than many other shapes and ratios - BTW the fourth image here is interesting for its OU imagery, perhaps: http://www.crystalinks.com/sg.html Biblical Scholars say there is little justification in most of the DVC claims, especially in Dan Brown's not-so-tacit conclusion that Mary Magdalene was really the wife of a less-than-divine Jesus, had a child by him and their descendants walk among us today. What else do you expect them to say? According to Brown's (plagiaristic) accounting of Baigent et al., the truth was suppressed by the Catholic Church, except in its strange worship of the other Mary (for which there is a total of about three sentences in the NT to justify this) but handed down through centuries by a secret society, the Piory of Sion, that included Leonardo da Vinci, and about every other famous European. In the National Geographic Channel documentary, "Unlocking Da Vinci's Code: The Full Story," the surprisingly reclusive author talks about "his" controversial theory... hey, give us a break, Dan, its NOT yours except in your wildest dreams. He says "I began as a skeptic".....Riiiiight, and I began as a single cell, so what? Within microseconds, we were both on our way to gobbling up whatever resources were available, and you kept right on going. He continues, "As I started researching The Da Vinci Code, I really thought I would disprove a lot of this theory about Mary Magdalene and holy blood and all of that. I became a believer." - it should be added, "a believer without giving much credit to his sources." which maybe OK on the internet but not when you are hauling in $50 million bucks based on capitalizing on someone else's sensationalism. I expect either some lawsuits out of this, or at least some under-the-table payoffs by the film companies, probably already taken care of. Many experts concede that the Church suppressed many early Christian writings that may have differed from the official version of events described in the highly edited Bible we have now. They also contend that Mary Magdalene, while not married to Jesus, was probably a lot closer than the Church is comfotable with. Were not the apostles driven into a jealous rage when Jesus kissed her on the lips? Surprised that one got through. Back then, that kiss meant one heck of a lot more than it does today. She has been depicted as a prostitute, though there is no evidence in the Bible for that - and it is probably part of the internecine politics of making the other Mary, the chosen and official "Pagan Goddess" substitue, that is into the Queen-Being, as it were. Hey, this is as natural and magical as birth itself - that humans personify the Feminine role in procreation as Divine... look at the semi-worship of a more recent Diana. It didn't come out of nowhere. While it would have been unusual for a Jewish man like Jesus not to have been married, it was not unheard of among the celibate sects, like the Essenes.... who could, by the way enjoy sex and procreation, but could not marry per se (much like the early Catholic priests). The Essene archaelogical sites show evidence of women being present and children being raised in commune style, not unklike the present day kibbutz. Probably the origin of the famous quip, "why buy the cow when the milk's free?" One of Brown's sources is a controversial text known as the Gospel of Mary, the veracity and importance of which are very much up for debate. I'm sure many men who still dress like women in robes to make their gender more ambiguous, especially in Rome, have an intense fear of an upcoming "outing" such that newer Dead Sea Scrools could one day turn up an authentic version of the Gospel of Mary, one that they cannot ferret away into the catacombs fast enough. Every real scholar agrees that a power struggle raged within the early Christian church for 400 years of more, especially over the role of women... and that our present Bible is far from the word of God in places (although about half of it has proven historically accurate - the half they wanted to keep in). Not that things have changed that much in the intervening time. And BTW, all of this historical controversy should NOT in any way alter or challenge the spirituality of any believer, especially Catholic. If one has not already managed to completely divorce the *true* from the *historically accurate* then your spirituality will someday crumble on its own, or be reinforced once you reach a broader Noetic maturity. Jones ================================================ Two congregants considering a religious vocation were having a conversation. "What is similar about the Jesuit and Dominican Orders? " one asked. The other replied, "Well, they were both founded by Spaniards -- St. Dominic for the Dominicans, and St. Ignatius of Loyola for the Jesuits. They were also both founded to combat heresy -- the Dominicans to fight the Albigensians, and the Jesuits to fight the Protestants." "What is different about the Jesuit and Dominican Orders?" "Met any Albigensians lately?" From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 26 15:05:56 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1QN5kef024205; Sat, 26 Feb 2005 15:05:50 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1QN5cN0024161; Sat, 26 Feb 2005 15:05:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 15:05:38 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050226230537.006a9bbc pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 23:05:37 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Change is in the details & DVC Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58091 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 01:57 pm 26-02-05 -0800, you wrote: >----- Original Message ----- > >> Perhaps you have followed Chaplin's link to Glastonbury >> and the mystical significance of that weird Vesica Pisces > > And way beyond there, Frank .... > > >Jones > > ================================================ > > Two congregants considering a religious vocation were having > a conversation. "What is similar about the Jesuit and > Dominican Orders? " one asked. > > The other replied, "Well, they were both founded by > Spaniards -- St. Dominic for the Dominicans, and St. > Ignatius of Loyola for the Jesuits. They were also both > founded to combat heresy -- the Dominicans to fight the > Albigensians, and the Jesuits to fight the Protestants." > >"What is different about the Jesuit and Dominican Orders?" > >"Met any Albigensians lately?" > > ================================================ > LOL - 8-) That's a good one Monsieur Flambeau - I'll have to remember that for my school reunion. ;-) Frank From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 26 15:11:21 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1QNAvef025784; Sat, 26 Feb 2005 15:11:02 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1QNAtH0025762; Sat, 26 Feb 2005 15:10:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 15:10:55 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <28886635.1109459452643.JavaMail.root wamui04.slb.atl.earthlink.net> Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 18:10:52 -0500 (GMT-05:00) From: Jed Rothwell Reply-To: Jed Rothwell To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: A cause celebre? Cc: melmiles1 juno.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Earthlink Zoo Mail 1.0 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58092 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A mainstream CF researcher asked Ed Storms and I to tone down or remove the Manifesto we posted on Thursday, "THE DOE LIES!" I asked Mel Miles whether he thinks it is over the top. He replied with a very depressing message. He says he understands why traditionally minded academic researchers may feel this is excessive, but he thinks the Manifesto is justified, and he agrees we should leave it. He also said the university stands by him, and would like him to work on CF full time. They have even agreed to release him from teaching. But without funding the project cannot begin. Miles has been looking for funding for years. He even considered going to China. He feels the DoE was his last chance. He is old, and he will probably retire for good now. He yearns to do another CF experiment, but he has no way to do it. I have a feeling we -- the people who support CF -- should try to make this a cause celebre. Perhaps this time the public will see that the opposition has gone too far. Ed & I are trying to stir up the public with out bold red headline, but so far the response has been lukewarm. 150 copies of the Manifesto have been downloaded. I am not sure what we should do, or what we can can do. But I have a sense that Mel is a perfect "poster boy" (as the dreadful modern cliche has it). Consider: The University supports him, and is willing to let him do research full time. He has a stellar record. He is old; this is his last chance. As for what else we can do . . . Does anyone here have suggestions? If there are steps that cost a few thousand dollars I would be willing to pay for them. The most effective steps probably will not cost much. Here are few ideas: Expand the headlines and the document. Call upon the readers here and at LENR-CANR to speak up, contact their Congressmen, contact reporters. Of course we have all done this sort of thing before, but we have seldom had such a clear-cut injustice, and such a straightforward, reasonable demand. I think people will see that we are not asking for much. We want the government to give a research grant to a scientist that the government itself nominated at "Distinguished Fellow." If that is not a reasonable, sensible demand, what is? Perhaps we could purchase advertising on Google. Not sure what, but whenever anyone types "cold fusion," or "energy" we could have small ad come up saying: THE DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY BROKE ITS PROMISE WE DEMAND FUNDING FOR COLD FUSION NOW THE LAST CHANCE FOR ONE OF AMERICA'S LEADING SCIENTISTS [Link to LENR-CANR.org] Putting an ad like that in newspapers would be terribly expensive, but perhaps Google would be cheaper. I do not know. If thousands, or tens of thousands, of people read the manifesto (and the HTML pages), and they contacted the authorities, perhaps it would have an effect. Other CF researchers would prefer we do this quietly, behind the scenes, the polite academic old-school way. Ed & I feel that the time for that has passed. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 26 18:07:47 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1R27Qef016261; Sat, 26 Feb 2005 18:07:26 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1R27NA5016233; Sat, 26 Feb 2005 18:07:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 18:07:23 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <00eb01c51c70$f520a780$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <2.2.32.20050226183212.006a5e3c pop.freeserve.net> Subject: OFF TOPIC: Vesica Piscis addenda Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 18:06:31 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58093 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: ...or, in Gnostic understanding, was Christianity originally a Pythagorean off-shoot? One more thing about this particular religious symbol which I forgot to mention, for those who enjoy religious symbolism, Gnostic mythology and codes ... and thankfully do not have to risk incurring the wrath of the Benedictines ;-) Some have interpreted the Vesica Piscis as evidence of the Gnostic contention that Jesus, his disciples, and the sect he belonged to was a Pythagorean sect instead of an Essene or other Jewish offshoot group (there is much debate as to which sect), but this Pythagorean connection would be highly doubtful, had not thousands died believing it, and had not Jesus' brother James and others who took up his cause (Paul) been practicing Jews. Most of the Gnostics slaughtered and burned at the stake for believing in the Pythagorean connection being the aforementioned Albigensians. Had Jesus spoken Greek, however, instead of Aramaic, it would be a closer call as brothers often do take separate spiritual paths. So far as I can tell, there is some, but little good evidence that Jesus spoke Greek, or if there is clear evidence, it is buried in some catacomb under Rome that was missed in Angels and Demons, along with the Gospel of Mary. http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/archives/greek-2/msg00315.html According to St. John, who was Greek, but is not believed to a contemporary, Jesus performed his first public miracle at a wedding feast in Cana, when he turned water into wine (John 2:1-11). Side note >> similarly, earlier Greek myth had Dionysus turning water into wine at his own wedding to Ariadne . Also in John, Jesus miraculously helped Peter and other disciples catch a large number of fish at the Sea of Galilee -- 153 fish, to be precise (John 21 : 11). Note: Christianity originally first turned up in all the exact places where Pythagorean sects were predominant (so called Asia minor), leading some to think it spread through this vector initially, before Paul and Peter took charge and spread it to Rome. The great mathematician Pythagoras, according to his disciples - which sects had been spreading for 500 years or so before Jesus, also performed this very same supernatural feat with fish. Since far more ancient times, the original "fish story" has been part of a mathematical ratio called "the measure of the fish," which produces the mystical symbol of the vesica piscis (or pisces). This is the Icthus, or sign of the fish, which of course, is still widely used today as a symbol of Christianity. Icthus is a Greek word long associated with the Pythagoreans for hundreds of years prior to Jesus. Pythagoras' disciples established religious communities throughout the Greek world and some of them were in Galilee. All were vegetarians but ate fish. The number 12 was a common theme. Men and women were admitted equally, they took vows of celibacy and all possessions were held in common. Oil was used in the rites. Celibacy was defined somewhat differently than we do today - basically it meant no commitment to a single individual, what we would call a romantic commitment. All wore white robes. Pythagoras himself was reputed to have worked many miracles of healing, including reviving several dead people. He was said to be the son of a god, Apollo, and born of a mortal mother, who was called "Parthenesis", which means virgin. The word "Parthenon" is a temple dedicated to a virgin, often her name is Athena, but she is also called Madonna. Like the great vegetarian miracle worker Pythagoras, Jesus is strangely associated with fish, but not only real fish, rather an allegorical code to explain a deep mystical relationships. The Pythagoreans had a diagram of 2 intersecting circles, one above, one below, with the circumference of one touching the center of the other. The 2 circles represented the spiritual and the material domains. The "transcendental" region where the circles intersect resembles a fish shape-exactly as used as the symbol for Christianity. The Pythagoreans even gave this symbol its latinized name, vesica piscis. The ratio of the height of this fish symbol to its length is 153 : 265, which is the *nearest whole number ratio to the square root of 3* (1.732 ...) and the controlling ratio of the equilateral triangle. Anyway, remember that key symbolic number =153. Now the stories of both Pythagoras and Jesus have them telling disciple fishermen - who have failed to catch fish all day, to now cast their nets again. Miraculously, the nets come in full. Pythagoras was said to have correctly predicted the exact number of fish caught but the mystic number is not revealed, after all it is a Gnostic story. But in the Gospel story of Jesus the number of fish caught is given by St. John, a Greek, as exactly 153. Coincidence? Dan Brown missed his chance in Angels & Demons (don't waste your time with that one) but the NT book of John is my favorite by far, and if some new Dead Sea Scroll should turn up with you-know-who speaking you-know-what, then duck and cover... as who knows what is on the way... what do those four horsemen represent, anyway? http://www.cassiopaea.org/cass/earth2.htm Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 26 18:13:28 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1R2DCef019355; Sat, 26 Feb 2005 18:13:13 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1R2DA5B019335; Sat, 26 Feb 2005 18:13:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 18:13:10 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: A cause celebre? X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: ID = 7b84137320e539ae3bcf255acd0b8dbd Reply-To: michael.foster excite.com From: "Michael Foster" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: michael.foster excite.com X-Mailer: PHP Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050227021254.AC68A1BD50 xprdmailfe23.nwk.excite.com> Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 21:12:54 -0500 (EST) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58094 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This problem has my mind twisting and roiling. Jed, your frustration and that of Ed Storms is palpable, and I can understand why. Here are some suggestions. Keep the Manifesto. It worked pretty well for Marx. It worked pretty well for the Bauhaus. I was going to suggest that the public is inured to government scientists lying, but what the hell, it always makes a good story. You have to make your case in terms of a government cover-up, like Watergate. You might be able to pull this off for no dollar outlay whatever. If not, you can hire a low-budget PR firm. These people always know whom to contact. Here's the main plan. This worked surprisingly well for me, although it was quite a long time ago. If your timing is right and you are lucky, you can get millions of dollars worth of free publicity. Call one of your local TV stations, which is also a network affiliate, and see it you can get in contact with a reporter. Just keep at it until you get someone. Remember we are presently going through a slow news period. The elections are over, both here and in Iraq. Most of the news right now is more or less manufactured, so right now would be perfect unless something exciting occurs. In other words, the news business is just begging for something to talk about. If you finally get someone to talk to, just tell them what's happening. You know, the usual, thousands of reputable scientists getting positive CF results, the scientific establishment suppressing all the information, etc., etc. You might throw in some of your petrocracy suppression ideas and you must include the fact that a large Japanese corporation is taking this very seriously and providing funding. This fact is practically unknown in the U.S. Make it sound like breaking news. Do the same thing with a local newspaper. You're bound to get some sort of coverage. It's important to time this so that both the TV news and the newspaper carry your story with in a few days of each other. This makes it seem more important. If everything goes as planned, and you are lucky, the TV station's network will pick it up and the AP might pick it up from your local newspaper. You simply can't get any better advertising at any price. BTW, I suggest you try your local CBS affiliate. The have a little greater tendency to take local stories national and they will do almost anything to divert attention from their recent Dan Rather problem. Something else probably needs to be emphasized. You really need to make clear that the funding required here is far, far less than almost any other government project. This can be very low budget research compared to most. Worth a try, no? M. _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 26 19:17:10 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1R3Gsef012340; Sat, 26 Feb 2005 19:16:58 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1R3GpEl012307; Sat, 26 Feb 2005 19:16:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 19:16:51 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <003201c51c7a$c04f56a0$fc027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: a cause celebre' Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 21:16:37 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_002E_01C51C48.75315EC0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-99.2 required=4.0 tests=HTML_30_40,HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: <5T3ysB.A.KAD.juTICB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58095 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002E_01C51C48.75315EC0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_002F_01C51C48.7532E560" ------=_NextPart_001_002F_01C51C48.7532E560 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankJed, There is a lot of research money out there in the " non profit = foundation sector". Interesting in they are looking at " matching" grants. Find a few bucks = that some private industry groups will pledge and the foundations will = match or sometimes provide up to 5:1 or 10:1 matching. They usually want = the research funneled to a particular University.. but.. thats a sell. Let me know at wallhalla cvtv.net and I will approach several = foundations in Houston and have our company sponsor some seed money. I = will need the name of the University working with Mel. As we say down here...lets dont talk about in anymore..lets do it! Jed.. = get it done!! Richard ------=_NextPart_001_002F_01C51C48.7532E560 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Jed,
 
There is a lot of research money out there in = the " non=20 profit foundation sector".
 
Interesting in they are looking at " matching" = grants.  Find a few bucks that some private industry groups will = pledge and=20 the foundations will match or sometimes provide up to 5:1 or 10:1 = matching. They=20 usually want the research funneled to a particular University.. but.. = thats a=20 sell.
 
Let me know at wallhalla@cvtv.net and I will=20 approach several foundations in Houston and have our company = sponsor=20 some seed money. I will need the name of the University working with=20 Mel.
As we say down here...lets dont talk about in=20 anymore..lets do it! Jed.. get it done!!
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_002F_01C51C48.7532E560-- ------=_NextPart_000_002E_01C51C48.75315EC0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <002d01c51c7a$bfbe1320$fc027841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_002E_01C51C48.75315EC0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 26 22:40:43 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1R6eV1F021681; Sat, 26 Feb 2005 22:40:31 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1R6eSb8021661; Sat, 26 Feb 2005 22:40:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 22:40:28 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <410-22005202764033390 ix.netcom.com> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: aki ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.1.47.0 (Windows) From: "Akira Kawasaki" To: "Jed Rothwell" , "vortex-l" Subject: RE: A cause celebre? Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 22:40:33 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: c4cc7f5f697e8746f66dc3a06d5924d812bde684e2a6e7c7fef51a4bee762677d81f49743ecfecf5350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 216.175.64.244 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58096 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Feb. 26, 2005 Vortex, I see Miles is making a presentation at the March APS meeting.so is Miley and others well known to him. I presume Miles is salaried at the current university and they are generous enough to give a free hand in CF experimentation.. Perhaps he can get a paid leave of absence to pursue CF work. If so, he could join Miley or others as a visiting professor and he could contribute his expertise. Perhaps he could make the contacts at the March APS meeting. Remember Miley just received a large grant ($100 K) from the New Energy Foundation that took over Infinite Energy. I would think Miles could make a proposal to enable him to pursue his CF ideas together with laboratories involved with CF. This way foundation funds will not be wasted in duplicate facilities. The New Energy Foundation should undertake a larger profile campaign (fight) for CF while they solicit tax deductible donations for their non profit efforts. -ak- > [Original Message] > From: Jed Rothwell > To: > Cc: > Date: 2/26/2005 3:11:02 PM > Subject: A cause celebre? > > A mainstream CF researcher asked Ed Storms and I to tone down or remove the Manifesto we posted on Thursday, "THE DOE LIES!" I asked Mel Miles whether he thinks it is over the top. He replied with a very depressing message. He says he understands why traditionally minded academic researchers may feel this is excessive, but he thinks the Manifesto is justified, and he agrees we should leave it. > > He also said the university stands by him, and would like him to work on CF full time. They have even agreed to release him from teaching. But without funding the project cannot begin. Miles has been looking for funding for years. He even considered going to China. He feels the DoE was his last chance. He is old, and he will probably retire for good now. He yearns to do another CF experiment, but he has no way to do it. > > I have a feeling we -- the people who support CF -- should try to make this a cause celebre. Perhaps this time the public will see that the opposition has gone too far. Ed & I are trying to stir up the public with out bold red headline, but so far the response has been lukewarm. 150 copies of the Manifesto have been downloaded. > > I am not sure what we should do, or what we can can do. But I have a sense that Mel is a perfect "poster boy" (as the dreadful modern cliche has it). Consider: > > The University supports him, and is willing to let him do research full time. > He has a stellar record. > He is old; this is his last chance. > > As for what else we can do . . . Does anyone here have suggestions? If there are steps that cost a few thousand dollars I would be willing to pay for them. The most effective steps probably will not cost much. Here are few ideas: > > Expand the headlines and the document. Call upon the readers here and at LENR-CANR to speak up, contact their Congressmen, contact reporters. Of course we have all done this sort of thing before, but we have seldom had such a clear-cut injustice, and such a straightforward, reasonable demand. I think people will see that we are > not asking for much. We want the government to give a research grant to a scientist that the government itself nominated at "Distinguished Fellow." If that is not a reasonable, sensible demand, what is? > > Perhaps we could purchase advertising on Google. Not sure what, but whenever anyone types "cold fusion," or "energy" we could have small ad come up saying: > > THE DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY BROKE ITS PROMISE > WE DEMAND FUNDING FOR COLD FUSION NOW > THE LAST CHANCE FOR ONE OF AMERICA'S LEADING SCIENTISTS > [Link to LENR-CANR.org] > > Putting an ad like that in newspapers would be terribly expensive, but perhaps Google would be cheaper. I do not know. > > If thousands, or tens of thousands, of people read the manifesto (and the HTML pages), and they contacted the authorities, perhaps it would have an effect. > > Other CF researchers would prefer we do this quietly, behind the scenes, the polite academic old-school way. Ed & I feel that the time for that has passed. > > - Jed > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 27 04:13:12 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1RCCr1F019972; Sun, 27 Feb 2005 04:12:54 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1RCCnlE019944; Sun, 27 Feb 2005 04:12:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 04:12:49 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=poUuCunoBL3t7kOOAv2decY8N5isfh2kZUjCbRM1afWNKgEkZbppirIXqNZmY5y/; Message-ID: <410-220052027111155420 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Antimony vs Palliadium for CF Electrolysis Cathodes? Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 05:11:55 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9404ee84e1700edac0b49686b520af22148350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.138 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58097 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Antimony was a metal of choice for the Ancient Alchemists, and bears some properties that resemble Palladium. It's propensity to explode when combined with 4% - 12% Antimony Trichloride (and possibly hydrogen)in the "alpha-antimony allotrope" merits some thought as a CF- O/U material; The Alchemist's symbol for it is kind of sexy: :-) http://www.webelements.com/webelements/elements/text/Sb/hist.html It is a Toxic Material, but, possibly of interest for CF-O/U experiments since a gram of "Explosive Antimony" releases 82,000 joules/gram which is about 6.5 times the energy released in combining hydrogen and oxygen to obtain a gram of water or about 58 times the energy released upon burning Antimony in Chlorine to form a gram of Antimony Trichloride. Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

Antimony was a metal of choice for the Ancient Alchemists, and bears some properties that resemble Palladium. It's propensity to explode when combined with 4% - 12% Antimony Trichloride (and possibly hydrogen)in the "alpha-antimony allotrope"
merits some thought as a CF- O/U material;
 
The Alchemist's symbol for it is kind of sexy:    :-)
 
 
It is a Toxic Material, but, possibly of interest for CF-O/U experiments since
a gram of "Explosive Antimony" releases 82,000 joules/gram which is about
6.5 times the energy released in combining hydrogen and oxygen to obtain a gram of water
or about 58 times the energy released upon burning Antimony in Chlorine to form a gram of
Antimony Trichloride.

Frederick

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 27 04:40:38 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1RCeF1F031939; Sun, 27 Feb 2005 04:40:15 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1RCeCh6031902; Sun, 27 Feb 2005 04:40:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 04:40:12 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=UhPn4RwBCkTjDz7iu2jof/ldI/g+fOHZRdZYMJK+SDL5Uxlzt/osbpTLEeTSXeZo; Message-ID: <410-220052027113935920 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Antimony vs Palliadium for CF Electrolysis Cathodes? Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 05:39:35 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9404af7f0da1008c512246c2ece959813f1350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.31 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58098 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Interestingly a Google search for "Palladium Antimonide" brought up 25 hits. http://gsa.confex.com/gsa/2003AM/finalprogram/abstract_64355.htm " Palladium antimonide is rare. One crystal of homogeneous chemical composition (2.5 mm across) gives an ideal formula of (Pd,Cu)3(Sb,As,Sn)1 although the X-ray analysis confirmed the mertieite-I structure. The crystal is brittle and shows perfect cleavage on 0001. Another crystal, characterized by the formula (Pd,Cu)20(Sb,As,Sn)7, has micron-sized (2-5 µm) inclusions of sperrylite and deformation textures clearly visible in polished section. Analysis by defocused beam gives a bulk composition which corresponds to mertieite-II/stibiopalladinite(?)." A gremlin in Palladium Chatodes? Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

Interestingly a Google search for "Palladium Antimonide" brought up 25 hits.
 
 
" Palladium antimonide is rare. One crystal of homogeneous chemical composition (2.5 mm across) gives an ideal formula of (Pd,Cu)3(Sb,As,Sn)1 although the X-ray analysis confirmed the mertieite-I structure. The crystal is brittle and shows perfect cleavage on 0001. Another crystal, characterized by the formula (Pd,Cu)20(Sb,As,Sn)7, has micron-sized (2-5 µm) inclusions of sperrylite and deformation textures clearly visible in polished section. Analysis by defocused beam gives a bulk composition which corresponds to mertieite-II/stibiopalladinite(?)."
 
A gremlin in Palladium Chatodes?
 
Frederick
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 27 05:29:28 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1RDSd1F017426; Sun, 27 Feb 2005 05:28:39 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1RDSaoV017402; Sun, 27 Feb 2005 05:28:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 05:28:36 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050227132834.006ac904 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 13:28:34 +0000 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC: Vesica Piscis addenda Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58099 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 06:06 pm 26-02-05 -0800, you wrote: >...or, in Gnostic understanding, was Christianity originally >a Pythagorean off-shoot? > >One more thing about this particular religious symbol which >I forgot to mention, for those who enjoy religious >symbolism, Gnostic mythology and codes ... and thankfully do >not have to risk incurring the wrath of the Benedictines >;-) > >Some have interpreted the Vesica Piscis as evidence of the >Gnostic contention that Jesus, his disciples, and the sect >he belonged to was a Pythagorean sect instead of an Essene >or other Jewish offshoot group (there is much debate as to >which sect), but this Pythagorean connection would be highly >doubtful, had not thousands died believing it, and had not >Jesus' brother James and others who took up his cause (Paul) >been practicing Jews. Most of the Gnostics slaughtered and >burned at the stake for believing in the Pythagorean >connection being the aforementioned Albigensians. Had Jesus >spoken Greek, however, instead of Aramaic, it would be a >closer call as brothers often do take separate spiritual >paths. So far as I can tell, there is some, but little good >evidence that Jesus spoke Greek, or if there is clear >evidence, it is buried in some catacomb under Rome that was >missed in Angels and Demons, along with the Gospel of Mary. >http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/archives/greek-2/msg00315.html > >According to St. John, who was Greek, but is not believed to >a contemporary, Jesus performed his first public miracle at >a wedding feast in Cana, when he turned water into wine >(John 2:1-11). Side note >> similarly, earlier Greek myth >had Dionysus turning water into wine at his own wedding to >Ariadne . Also in John, Jesus miraculously helped Peter and >other disciples catch a large number of fish at the Sea of >Galilee -- 153 fish, to be precise (John 21 : 11). Note: >Christianity originally first turned up in all the exact >places where Pythagorean sects were predominant (so called >Asia minor), leading some to think it spread through this >vector initially, before Paul and Peter took charge and >spread it to Rome. > >The great mathematician Pythagoras, according to his >disciples - which sects had been spreading for 500 years or >so before Jesus, also performed this very same supernatural >feat with fish. Since far more ancient times, the original >"fish story" has been part of a mathematical ratio called >"the measure of the fish," which produces the mystical >symbol of the vesica piscis (or pisces). This is the Icthus, >or sign of the fish, which of course, is still widely used >today as a symbol of Christianity. Icthus is a Greek word >long associated with the Pythagoreans for hundreds of years >prior to Jesus. > >Pythagoras' disciples established religious communities >throughout the Greek world and some of them were in Galilee. >All were vegetarians but ate fish. The number 12 was a >common theme. Men and women were admitted equally, they took >vows of celibacy and all possessions were held in common. >Oil was used in the rites. Celibacy was defined somewhat >differently than we do today - basically it meant no >commitment to a single individual, what we would call a >romantic commitment. All wore white robes. Pythagoras >himself was reputed to have worked many miracles of healing, >including reviving several dead people. He was said to be >the son of a god, Apollo, and born of a mortal mother, who >was called "Parthenesis", which means virgin. The word >"Parthenon" is a temple dedicated to a virgin, often her >name is Athena, but she is also called Madonna. > >Like the great vegetarian miracle worker Pythagoras, Jesus >is strangely associated with fish, but not only real fish, >rather an allegorical code to explain a deep mystical >relationships. The Pythagoreans had a diagram of 2 >intersecting circles, one above, one below, with the >circumference of one touching the center of the other. The 2 >circles represented the spiritual and the material domains. >The "transcendental" region where the circles intersect >resembles a fish shape-exactly as used as the symbol for >Christianity. The Pythagoreans even gave this symbol its >latinized name, vesica piscis. The ratio of the height of >this fish symbol to its length is 153 : 265, which is the >*nearest whole number ratio to the square root of 3* (1.732 >...) and the controlling ratio of the equilateral triangle. > >Anyway, remember that key symbolic number =153. Now the >stories of both Pythagoras and Jesus have them telling >disciple fishermen - who have failed to catch fish all day, >to now cast their nets again. Miraculously, the nets come in >full. Pythagoras was said to have correctly predicted the >exact number of fish caught but the mystic number is not >revealed, after all it is a Gnostic story. But in the Gospel >story of Jesus the number of fish caught is given by St. >John, a Greek, as exactly 153. > >Coincidence? Dan Brown missed his chance in Angels & Demons >(don't waste your time with that one) but the NT book of >John is my favorite by far, and if some new Dead Sea Scroll >should turn up with you-know-who speaking you-know-what, >then duck and cover... as who knows what is on the way... >what do those four horsemen represent, anyway? >http://www.cassiopaea.org/cass/earth2.htm > >Jones > > That's wonderful stuff Jones. You are an amazing fellow. I fear you polymath talents are somewhat wasted here. You should be writing your autobiography or something. I'm sure Flambeau's real life story would be a damn sight more interesting than Da Vinci Code rubbish. As for regretting your recommendation last year for me to read DVC, you needn't have worried that I took you seriously. For me, Father Brown's fiction contains far more truth than Dan Brown's factoids. You write, > The ratio of the height of this fish symbol to its length > is 153 : 265, which is the nearest whole number ratio to > the square root of 3 You meant, of course, > The ratio of the LENGTH of this fish symbol to its HEIGHT > is 265 : 153, which is the nearest whole number ratio to > the square root of 3. If I were a pedantic mathematician I would point out that the square root of three is irrational anyway so there must inevitably be nearer whole number ratios. For example:- root three = 1.732051 265/153 = 1.732026 abs.diff. = 0.000025 whereas 265004/153000 = 1.732052 abs.diff. = 0.000001 But if I were a Bob Park and really wanted to rain on the parade I would seize on your fact about the equilateral triangle and point out that jiggling water molecules can be thought of as occupying spherical regions like so many cannon balls. These will naturally give rise to triangular arrangements. If we were not mesmerized by orthogonal axis but capable of adopting a sixfold geometry of the tetrahedron edge, then the notion of root 3 would never even arise. But if we were all like Park the world would be an awfully dull place. No poetry, no art, no music, no romance, no greater love than this hath no man, that he lay down his life for his fiends. God doesn't force men to believe against their will. The Christmas story is about "peace to men of good will. [Lk - 2:14]". Men of "good will" notice - not the Bob Parks of this world. I suppose the ultimate exemplifier of Parkian bad will was the writer, Emile Zola. Consider this excerpt.... ============================================================== http://www.marxists.org/archive/haldane/works/1930s/lunn.htm Most rationalists, however, are not prepared to consider for a moment any evidence, however strong, for the miraculous. Zola, unable to explain a cure at Lourdes which he had investigated, added, "I don't believe in miracles: even if all the sick in Lourdes were cured in one moment I would NOT BELIEVE in them!" Clearly this attitude is founded not on reason but on faith-- faith in the dogma that miracles do not occur. ============================================================== A bit like Bob's faith that Cold Fusions don't occur. .....and this, ============================================================== http://www.tfp.org/magazine/mag73/lourdes_medical.htm Mr. Vidigal: The doctor in charge of this office at the time of the writer Emil Zola had a debate with him, isn’t it true? Dr. Theillier: True. Zola, interested in finding out more about the shrine in Lourdes, paid a visit at the end of the 19th century. Doctor Boissarie, one of my predecessors, opened the doors of the medical office to him, and the writer had the opportunity to witness the true miraculous cures of two young women whose cases we have in our files to this day. Upon his return to Paris, Zola wrote his book about Lourdes. In it he recounts faithfully these two miracles and only changed the name of the young women. The problem is that he tampered with reality when he added that the two had a relapse and died of their illnesses. This is absolutely false. Doctor Boissarie went to Paris and looked him up. At a public conference, he challenged Zola, demonstrating that he had changed the truth. Zola answered that he was a fiction writer who had the right to introduce whatever he wished in his books. In reality, both young women were truly cured of their ailments, never had a relapse, and lived to old age. ============================================================== Now that REALLY takes the biscuit for bad will, eh! I don't think even Parkie would go THAT far. 8-) Still, just because someone who for most of his life is a resolute agnostic, he is not necessarily of bad will when it comes to recognising the existence of the supernatural. Consider the case of the Nobel laureate, Alexis Carrel (1873-1944)... ============================================================== http://www.ewtn.com/library/MARY/VOYLOUR.HTM ============================================================== ...and I'm confident Flambeau will react like the good thief when he is brought face to face with his own miracle. ;-) Cheers Frank From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 27 07:13:49 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1RFDV1F027232; Sun, 27 Feb 2005 07:13:31 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1RFDTpi027210; Sun, 27 Feb 2005 07:13:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 07:13:29 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4221E34C.30500 cox.net> Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 08:12:12 -0700 From: "Hoyt A. Stearns Jr." Organization: ISUS User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:0.9.2.1) Gecko/20010901 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Flux gates References: <20050225221814.9877.qmail web51710.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58100 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I have a few questions on switching magnetic flux, as used in the Bearden Motionless Electromagnetic Generator, and numerous other "free energy" magnet motors. I can think of several ways to redirect or gate off magnetic flux: 1. Saturation of iron flux paths, either parallel to the flux as in the Bearden device, or orthogonally as in a magnetic amplifier. 2. Curie point modulation -- moving the temperature of an iron flux path above and below the Curie point. 3. Superconductivity modulation -- moving the temperature of a superconducting material above and below its critical temperature ( the Meissner effect will surely make this very effective ). 4. Physical movement of iron slugs into and out of the path. 5. Perhaps moving bismuth diamagnetic materials into or near the paths. Are there other ways? Acoustic effects? Rotating magnet effects? High voltage effects? RF effects? I would assume that all of the above methods, by conventional theory or experiment show that more energy is required to modulate the flux than could be gained by doing so -- has that been shown to be true by experiment? (Bearden (and others) claims it's not true). Hoyt Stearns Scottsdale, Arizona From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 27 08:55:38 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1RGtS1F001119; Sun, 27 Feb 2005 08:55:28 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1RGtPpG001091; Sun, 27 Feb 2005 08:55:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 08:55:25 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050227115356.02af1c88 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 11:55:25 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: a cause celebre' In-Reply-To: <003201c51c7a$c04f56a0$fc027841 xptower> References: <003201c51c7a$c04f56a0$fc027841 xptower> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58101 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: RC Macaulay wrote: >I will need the name of the University working with Mel. University of La Verne http://www.ulv.edu/ He is teaching there. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 27 09:47:52 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1RHlE1F024191; Sun, 27 Feb 2005 09:47:14 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1RHl6OX024063; Sun, 27 Feb 2005 09:47:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 09:47:06 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050227174655.00b69898 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 17:46:55 +0000 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: A cause celebre? Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58102 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 06:10 pm 26-02-05 -0500, Jed wrote: > A mainstream CF researcher asked Ed Storms and I to > tone down or remove the Manifesto we posted on Thursday, > "THE DOE LIES!" I asked Mel Miles whether he thinks it > is over the top. He replied with a very depressing message. > He says he understands why traditionally minded academic > researchers may feel this is excessive, but he thinks the > Manifesto is justified, and he agrees we should leave it. >As for what else we can do . . Does anyone here have suggestions? I have a suggestion - but you will probably find it far too Machiavellian. I believe, and I speak from real life experience, that the best way to get people's attention is to scare the shit out of them. As an illustration consider this personal history. ============================================= When I was working in the Structural Division of the Building Research Station, my particular section was charged with the responsibility of anticipating systemic structural failure before they happened. Our cutting edge research on concrete had shown that existing ideas about concrete failure were seriously defective. This had relevant implications for the safety of the British AGRs (Advanced Gas-cooled Reactors) since they use prestressed concrete for their pressure vessels. However, though what we had discovered suggested that AGRs weren't as safe as people imagined, I wasn't to fazed about it since I didn't live near one. However, Chernobyl and a BBC TV programme on the Hartlepool AGR which described how they were tightening the loose tendons (rather than loosening the tight ones) brought home to me the frailty of human endeavours. I acquainted my division head with my views just in case he ever came across more detailed information of problems in that area. Some years later we had a re-tread Director (from Porton Down) who happened to read one of my way out internal notes to which he took violent exception. So much so that I was banned from internal publication on my own authority. As you might expect this really pissed me off. So, to his utter fury, I appealed against the decision on the grounds that the suppression had implication for the safety of nuclear reactors. Now about that time there had been a lot of worry about civil servants whistle blowing by taking information on internal shenanigans to the press. To reduce this leakage an appeal system was set up giving every civil servant the right of appeal to the very head (Permanent Secretary) of his Department. Furthermore, if the PS saw fit, the appeal could proceed all the way up to the Head of the Home Civil Service and Cabinet Secretary, Robin Butler himself, (now Lord Butler) and, not unnaturally in view of the subject matter, the buck was passed right to the top. Nigel and I finished up in the RB's room in the Cabinet Office explaining the problem. Needless to say poor Robin was as out of his depth as Christopher Robin would have been. He was very nice about though but explained that he had no choice but to rely on the advice of his underlings. On its journey our appeal went through the scrutiny of a supposedly "Expert Committee" (what a farce that was but I'll save that for another time) with the inevitable fudge that I was given 15 weeks to write a paper going into the reasons for my concerns in greater depth. I said I needed 2 years to do the job properly (that being the time to my retirement ;-) ) and if they weren't prepared for that then they obviously weren't taking the matter seriously. There the matter rested. ============================================= So if you want to get people's attention, all you have to do is to point out to the great unwashed, in as lurid a way as you can, that if the Evil Empire harnesses Cold Fusion before the US, they will all finish up reading the koran and wearing chadors. It's no good saying "the development of small CF bombs is unlikely". Until we know why and how cold fusion works we are only guessing as to what's likely and what ain't. The point is, since nine-eleven the American public are running scared. Why else do you think that they re-elected Bush. They are scared that next time things will be nucular (to use my favourite Bushism). And the more extreme religious right are probably even more scared that muhammadan hoards are going to come sweeping across America as they did across Africa in the middle ages. You need to play upon that fear - just like the insurance companies play on the fear of all sorts of unlikely injuries and happenstance. And if the claimed percentages for belief in flying saucers and little green men is true (we may even include some Vortexians) then the evidence of a group of respectable scientists who are prepared to stand up and shout FIRE is bound to be effective. After all, there's a damn sight more reliable evidence for CF than for UFOs. I recognise, of course, that my good advice will most probably fall on deaf ears. Good scientists do not generally have the stomach for street fighting. They believe in sticking to the Queensbury Rules. The idea of kicking an opponent in the goolies while he's got his jacket half off, fills them with horror. Signs of wimpishness were all too evident when the term CF was dropped and replaced with LENR. Who the hell has ever heard of LENR? When I first saw that acronym I misread it as LNER (London and North Eastern Railway) as all Brits of my age naturally would. Instead of retreating you should have attacked. You should have seized the insult and worn it as a badge of honour. You should have done what the British Tommies did with Lily Marlene when they adopted it as their marching song, what the Tories did, what the Papists did. You wrote "I asked Mel Miles whether he thinks it is over the top." Goodness me! You sound like Ned Flanders. All credit to Mel Miles for his gutsey reply. Why on earth did it depress you. This whole thing reminds me of my government's plans to privatise the Building Research Establishment. As a preliminary BRS started doing some work for private firms. In typical scientific fashion they worked out the cost and added ten percent. What idiots! If you want to survive outside government service you don't charge what the thing costs, you charge what the market will bear. And you don't employ the kind of people who gravitate to the secure tenure and tax supported employment of government service either. They are generally far too wimpish and honest for the thrust and cut of the industrial jungle where only the fittest survive and the weakest go to the wall. And if this post seems rather unkind, I can only echo what my head master used to say when he beat me. "This hurts me more than it hurts you, Grimer." General George Patton might not have been PC, but, in a war, I wouldn't want to be in any other army - even if he did slap me around a bit. ;-) Cheers, Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 27 10:05:24 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1RI4v1F006719; Sun, 27 Feb 2005 10:04:58 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1RI4rDF006694; Sun, 27 Feb 2005 10:04:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 10:04:53 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42220C3F.70605 ix.netcom.com> Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 11:06:55 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: A cause celebre? References: <2.2.32.20050227174655.00b69898 pop.freeserve.net> In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.20050227174655.00b69898 pop.freeserve.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58103 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Frank, I totally agree with you. The time for being nice has past. The DOE has shown gross dishonesty and the energy situation is getting out of hand. The "Manifesto" is just the start. With a little luck and enough effort, we hope to get the public concerned. However, I have no allusions about the difficulty. If the issue involved any subject other than Cold Fusion, and perhaps UFOs, the press would be interested. Unfortunately, so many other issues are being generated these days by the US government that the press has difficulty keeping up even when it wants to. Anyway, if you know anyone in the press who might take an interest, please let me know. Regards, Ed Grimer wrote: > At 06:10 pm 26-02-05 -0500, Jed wrote: > > >>A mainstream CF researcher asked Ed Storms and I to >>tone down or remove the Manifesto we posted on Thursday, >>"THE DOE LIES!" I asked Mel Miles whether he thinks it >>is over the top. He replied with a very depressing message. >>He says he understands why traditionally minded academic >>researchers may feel this is excessive, but he thinks the >>Manifesto is justified, and he agrees we should leave it. > > > > >>As for what else we can do . . Does anyone here have suggestions? > > > > > > > I have a suggestion - but you will probably find it far > too Machiavellian. I believe, and I speak from real life > experience, that the best way to get people's attention > is to scare the shit out of them. > > As an illustration consider this personal history. > > ============================================= > When I was working in the Structural Division of > the Building Research Station, my particular > section was charged with the responsibility of > anticipating systemic structural failure before > they happened. Our cutting edge research on concrete > had shown that existing ideas about concrete > failure were seriously defective. This had relevant > implications for the safety of the British AGRs > (Advanced Gas-cooled Reactors) since they use > prestressed concrete for their pressure vessels. > However, though what we had discovered suggested > that AGRs weren't as safe as people imagined, > I wasn't to fazed about it since I didn't live > near one. > > However, Chernobyl and a BBC TV programme on the > Hartlepool AGR which described how they were > tightening the loose tendons (rather than > loosening the tight ones) brought home to me > the frailty of human endeavours. I acquainted > my division head with my views just in case he > ever came across more detailed information of > problems in that area. > > Some years later we had a re-tread Director > (from Porton Down) who happened to read one > of my way out internal notes to which he took > violent exception. So much so that I was banned > from internal publication on my own authority. > > As you might expect this really pissed me off. > So, to his utter fury, I appealed against the > decision on the grounds that the suppression > had implication for the safety of nuclear > reactors. > > Now about that time there had been a lot of > worry about civil servants whistle blowing by > taking information on internal shenanigans to > the press. To reduce this leakage an appeal > system was set up giving every civil servant > the right of appeal to the very head (Permanent > Secretary) of his Department. > > Furthermore, if the PS saw fit, the appeal > could proceed all the way up to the Head of > the Home Civil Service and Cabinet Secretary, > Robin Butler himself, (now Lord Butler) and, > not unnaturally in view of the subject matter, > the buck was passed right to the top. Nigel and > I finished up in the RB's room in the Cabinet > Office explaining the problem. Needless to say > poor Robin was as out of his depth as Christopher > Robin would have been. He was very nice about > though but explained that he had no choice > but to rely on the advice of his underlings. > > On its journey our appeal went through the > scrutiny of a supposedly "Expert Committee" (what > a farce that was but I'll save that for another > time) with the inevitable fudge that I was given > 15 weeks to write a paper going into the > reasons for my concerns in greater depth. > > I said I needed 2 years to do the job properly > (that being the time to my retirement ;-) ) > and if they weren't prepared for that then > they obviously weren't taking the matter > seriously. There the matter rested. > > ============================================= > > So if you want to get people's attention, all you have > to do is to point out to the great unwashed, in as lurid > a way as you can, that if the Evil Empire harnesses > Cold Fusion before the US, they will all finish up > reading the koran and wearing chadors. > > It's no good saying "the development of small CF > bombs is unlikely". Until we know why and how cold > fusion works we are only guessing as to what's > likely and what ain't. > > The point is, since nine-eleven the American public > are running scared. Why else do you think that they > re-elected Bush. They are scared that next time > things will be nucular (to use my favourite Bushism). > > And the more extreme religious right are probably > even more scared that muhammadan hoards are going > to come sweeping across America as they did across > Africa in the middle ages. You need to play upon > that fear - just like the insurance companies play > on the fear of all sorts of unlikely injuries and > happenstance. > > And if the claimed percentages for belief in flying > saucers and little green men is true (we may even > include some Vortexians) then the evidence of a group > of respectable scientists who are prepared to stand > up and shout FIRE is bound to be effective. After > all, there's a damn sight more reliable evidence > for CF than for UFOs. > > I recognise, of course, that my good advice will > most probably fall on deaf ears. Good scientists > do not generally have the stomach for street > fighting. They believe in sticking to the Queensbury > Rules. The idea of kicking an opponent in the > goolies while he's got his jacket half off, fills > them with horror. > > Signs of wimpishness were all too evident when the > term CF was dropped and replaced with LENR. Who > the hell has ever heard of LENR? When I first saw > that acronym I misread it as LNER (London and > North Eastern Railway) as all Brits of my age > naturally would. > > Instead of retreating you should have attacked. > You should have seized the insult and worn it as > a badge of honour. You should have done what the > British Tommies did with Lily Marlene when they > adopted it as their marching song, what the > Tories did, what the Papists did. > > You wrote "I asked Mel Miles whether he thinks it > is over the top." Goodness me! You sound like > Ned Flanders. All credit to Mel Miles for his > gutsey reply. Why on earth did it depress you. > > This whole thing reminds me of my government's > plans to privatise the Building Research > Establishment. As a preliminary BRS started > doing some work for private firms. In typical > scientific fashion they worked out the cost > and added ten percent. What idiots! If you want > to survive outside government service you don't > charge what the thing costs, you charge what > the market will bear. And you don't employ the > kind of people who gravitate to the secure > tenure and tax supported employment of government > service either. They are generally far too wimpish > and honest for the thrust and cut of the industrial > jungle where only the fittest survive and the > weakest go to the wall. > > And if this post seems rather unkind, I can only > echo what my head master used to say when he beat > me. > > "This hurts me more than it hurts you, Grimer." > > General George Patton might not have been PC, but, > in a war, I wouldn't want to be in any other army > - even if he did slap me around a bit. ;-) > > Cheers, > > Frank Grimer > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 27 10:52:39 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1RIqM1F002191; Sun, 27 Feb 2005 10:52:26 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1RIqEl0002141; Sun, 27 Feb 2005 10:52:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 10:52:14 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Flux gates Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 13:53:26 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <4221E34C.30500 cox.net> Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: <3X31mD.A.Rh.dbhICB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58104 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Hoyt. You've covered most of the major methods. And yes, the standard theory about these things is that you don't get more out than you put in. That said, there is a wealth of new phenomena that you don't see with linear resonators, and is well worth study on your part. It is better to think of flux switching/parameter change as being a means to an end rather than the end itself. K. -----Original Message----- From: Hoyt A. Stearns Jr. [mailto:hoyt-stearns cox.net] Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2005 10:12 AM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Flux gates I have a few questions on switching magnetic flux, as used in the Bearden Motionless Electromagnetic Generator, and numerous other "free energy" magnet motors. I can think of several ways to redirect or gate off magnetic flux: 1. Saturation of iron flux paths, either parallel to the flux as in the Bearden device, or orthogonally as in a magnetic amplifier. 2. Curie point modulation -- moving the temperature of an iron flux path above and below the Curie point. 3. Superconductivity modulation -- moving the temperature of a superconducting material above and below its critical temperature ( the Meissner effect will surely make this very effective ). 4. Physical movement of iron slugs into and out of the path. 5. Perhaps moving bismuth diamagnetic materials into or near the paths. Are there other ways? Acoustic effects? Rotating magnet effects? High voltage effects? RF effects? I would assume that all of the above methods, by conventional theory or experiment show that more energy is required to modulate the flux than could be gained by doing so -- has that been shown to be true by experiment? (Bearden (and others) claims it's not true). Hoyt Stearns Scottsdale, Arizona From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 27 11:28:50 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1RJSf1F014040; Sun, 27 Feb 2005 11:28:41 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1RJSbjn014014; Sun, 27 Feb 2005 11:28:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 11:28:37 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <27646864.1109532514708.JavaMail.root wamui06.slb.atl.earthlink.net> Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 14:28:34 -0500 (GMT-05:00) From: Jed Rothwell Reply-To: Jed Rothwell To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: A cause celebre? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Earthlink Zoo Mail 1.0 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58105 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Frank Grimer writes: > I have a suggestion - but you will probably find it far > too Machiavellian. I believe, and I speak from real life > experience, that the best way to get people's attention > is to scare the shit out of them. I could frighten them if I could get their attention, but they do not listen. Even without terrorist CF bombs, there is plenty to be frightened of, such as global warming. (By the way, if I take out a Google ad, I think I should associate it with the search words "global warming.") The book also has a chapter on CF powered weapons, which is pretty scary even without CF nuclear bombs. > You wrote "I asked Mel Miles whether he thinks it > is over the top." Goodness me! You sound like > Ned Flanders. All credit to Mel Miles for his > gutsey reply. Why on earth did it depress you. Because he said he will probably retire. He is giving up. He has been trying for years to get funding. He even thought of going to China. I shot back an answer saying "Wait! I will do my best to help." The other readers here should pitch in, and tell Mel Miles you stand with him. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 27 12:03:34 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1RK3K1F024715; Sun, 27 Feb 2005 12:03:20 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1RK3HYo024695; Sun, 27 Feb 2005 12:03:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 12:03:17 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: A cause celebre? X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: ID = 7b84137320e539ae3bcf255acd0b8dbd Reply-To: michael.foster excite.com From: "Michael Foster" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: michael.foster excite.com X-Mailer: PHP Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050227200309.B02743DDD xprdmailfe6.nwk.excite.com> Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 15:03:09 -0500 (EST) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58106 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed wrote: > Because he said he will probably retire. He is giving up. > He has been trying for years to get funding. He even > thought of going to China. I shot back an answer saying > "Wait! I will do my best to help." The other readers here > should pitch in, and tell Mel Miles you stand with him. Would you care to tell us how much money would constitute funding for Mel Miles? When you know what your goal is it's usually easier to reach. M. _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 27 12:12:40 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1RKCS1F028067; Sun, 27 Feb 2005 12:12:28 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1RKCQoQ028045; Sun, 27 Feb 2005 12:12:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 12:12:26 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20246512.1109535142321.JavaMail.root wamui06.slb.atl.earthlink.net> Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 15:12:21 -0500 (GMT-05:00) From: Jed Rothwell Reply-To: Jed Rothwell To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: A cause celebre? Cc: melmiles1 juno.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Earthlink Zoo Mail 1.0 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58107 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Michael Foster writes: > Would you care to tell us how much money would constitute > funding for Mel Miles? When you know what your goal is > it's usually easier to reach. Good question. I have no idea. I have copied this response to Miles. Perhaps part of the goal here is to get "official" money from a credible source. Sometimes this helps when it is time to submit a paper to peer-review at a journal. Also, Miles needs the cooperation of the government and the U.S. Navy in particular, since he wants materials from Szpak et al. (See his comments in the Manifesto.) - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 27 12:22:43 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1RKMA1F030801; Sun, 27 Feb 2005 12:22:11 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1RKM324030745; Sun, 27 Feb 2005 12:22:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 12:22:03 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=br01CI5+q7Fc2aqtz3SHij3d33PZUvxILFRvTSr3oOHyvyn2G9rBqm/YDp1TwQBg; Message-ID: <410-22005202719211980 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Explosive Antimony on Platinum, Cold Fusion in 1855? Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 13:21:19 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9402bfee5ffb5fe66a0e236c0f9daa23786350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.165.22 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58108 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Is it possible that the Platinum-Antimony, Platinum-Hydride interface set up conditions for Cold Fusion, that released 82 Kilojoule per gram of Explosive Antimony in Gore's 1855 experiments? Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

Is it possible that the Platinum-Antimony, Platinum-Hydride interface
set up conditions for Cold Fusion, that released 82 Kilojoule per gram of Explosive Antimony in Gore's 1855 experiments?
 
Frederick
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 27 12:39:38 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1RKdI1F003562; Sun, 27 Feb 2005 12:39:26 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1RKdFZN003539; Sun, 27 Feb 2005 12:39:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 12:39:15 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <8644602.1109536752909.JavaMail.root wamui06.slb.atl.earthlink.net> Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 15:39:12 -0500 (GMT-05:00) From: Jed Rothwell Reply-To: Jed Rothwell To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: Re: A cause celebre? - with two for one benefits Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Earthlink Zoo Mail 1.0 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58109 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: If Mel does get an experiment going, it might attract more attention than most CF research does. Suppose he is funded after a well-publicized battle, partly because a half-dozen reporters publish his story. Six months later, we call those reporters back and say, "guess what, it worked." My guess is they would be inclined to publish a follow-up story. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 27 12:53:06 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1RKqq1F009385; Sun, 27 Feb 2005 12:52:52 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1RKqleL009345; Sun, 27 Feb 2005 12:52:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 12:52:47 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: A cause celebre? Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 15:53:50 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.20050227174655.00b69898 pop.freeserve.net> Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58110 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Frank writes: >You wrote "I asked Mel Miles whether he thinks it >is over the top." Goodness me! You sound like >Ned Flanders. All credit to Mel Miles for his >gutsey reply. Why on earth did it depress you. I can't answer for Ed or Jed, but it depresses me because it's a sign of desperation and failure. Fear is a good motivator for destroying things; the techniques and methods you describe are generally used for destructive purposes. For example, if we wished to _stop_ CF research fear would be a good way to go about it. But we're trying to _create_ something here. And therein lies the rub. If you're looking to engage the emotions, the relevant one here is seduction, not fear. Think Clinton, not Bush. Needless to say, if you think scientists are bad at the fear game, their general ineptitude at seduction is legendary (grin). But you can't frighten people into the new, they must be seduced there. By the way, what's so horrible about China? K. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 27 13:09:46 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1RL9M1F015273; Sun, 27 Feb 2005 13:09:26 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1RL9KTn015254; Sun, 27 Feb 2005 13:09:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 13:09:20 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "John Steck" To: Subject: RE: A cause celebre? Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 15:10:44 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <28886635.1109459452643.JavaMail.root wamui04.slb.atl.earthlink.net> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 Resent-Message-ID: <7_9wHB.A.RuD._bjICB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58111 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Take a page from Howard Dean. Credit Card donations over the internet. Lots of money can be collected in a grass roots campaign... -john -----Original Message----- From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:jedrothwell mindspring.com] As for what else we can do . . . Does anyone here have suggestions? If there are steps that cost a few thousand dollars I would be willing to pay for them. The most effective steps probably will not cost much. Here are few ideas: From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 27 13:17:46 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1RLHG1F017543; Sun, 27 Feb 2005 13:17:19 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1RLH4pe017424; Sun, 27 Feb 2005 13:17:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 13:17:04 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42223945.4070601 ix.netcom.com> Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 14:19:01 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex Subject: Re: A cause celebre? References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58112 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Keith Nagel wrote: > Frank writes: > >>You wrote "I asked Mel Miles whether he thinks it >>is over the top." Goodness me! You sound like >>Ned Flanders. All credit to Mel Miles for his >>gutsey reply. Why on earth did it depress you. > > > I can't answer for Ed or Jed, but it depresses me because > it's a sign of desperation and failure. Fear is a > good motivator for destroying things; the techniques > and methods you describe are generally used for destructive > purposes. For example, if we wished to _stop_ CF research > fear would be a good way to go about it. Granted this is a sign of failure. However, we are not using fear, only embarrassment, at least with respect to the DOE. The population needs to realize the advantages of CF. The fear only comes if the advantages are ignored, in the same manner death comes if the advantages of medicine are ignored. > > But we're trying to _create_ something here. And therein > lies the rub. If you're looking to engage the emotions, > the relevant one here is seduction, not fear. Think Clinton, > not Bush. Needless to say, if you think scientists are > bad at the fear game, their general ineptitude at seduction > is legendary (grin). But you can't frighten people into > the new, they must be seduced there. Tell me Keith, how does one go about seducing the DOE? My experience with the government is that it is immune to seduction. It can be bought, it can be threatened by popular pressure, or it can be embarrassed. Otherwise, it does what current attitudes dictate. > > By the way, what's so horrible about China? If China gets CF before we do, we are toast. Also, China is not a pleasant place to work, being very polluted. Regards, Ed > > K. > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 27 14:17:16 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1RMGt1F004011; Sun, 27 Feb 2005 14:16:56 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1RMGp0h003978; Sun, 27 Feb 2005 14:16:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 14:16:51 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: A cause celebre? Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 17:18:01 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <42223945.4070601 ix.netcom.com> Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58113 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Ed, you write: >Granted this is a sign of failure. However, we are not using fear, >only embarrassment, at least with respect to the DOE. The population >needs to realize the advantages of CF. The fear only comes if the >advantages are ignored, in the same manner death comes if the advantages >of medicine are ignored. I was responding more to Frank Grimers suggestions; as far as I have seen so far you and Jed are dabbling in populism, in particular the sort of victimhood politics which previously were the domain of the left and are now the dominant domain of the right. I say this in a descriptive fashion, please don't take offense here. I don't think we can get very far on this issue without talking about things in a way which will repulse and disgust most rational people. So as it applies here, the DOE is the big bad government monster, and Mel is the poor downtrodden victimized scientist. That's the frame you're using, yes? >Tell me Keith, how does one go about seducing the DOE? My experience >with the government is that it is immune to seduction. It can be >bought, it can be threatened by popular pressure, or it can be >embarrassed. Otherwise, it does what current attitudes dictate. That's what most men think about women, which is why it always shocks them when the wife/girlfriend runs off with the personal trainer. That said, I was under the impression that the DOE was a dead issue at this point. RC seems to be leaning towards Houston money people ( wouldn't you love to be a fly on the wall when he tries to convince them to donate money to a California liberal arts college professor to do work that will undermine the petroleum industry? More power to you RC, if you can sell them on this I'll personally fly to Texas just to shake the hand of such a master salesman ). Everyone else seems to be leaning towards populist methods. As regards the seduction approach, you've got the wrong poster boy for starters. Read that post I did a few days ago about my Soho gallery experience, it was easy to pick out the artist, she was the most gorgeous girl in the room. Hardly an accident. I'll be really crass and say, why don't you get a hold of this person http://www.lenr-canr.org/images/Leeexperimentlarge.jpg as the public face of your effort. I can at least say that if you do an internet begging site as John suggests you'll get far more donations from that photo than from this one... http://www.ulv.edu/chemistry/img/biopic_miles.jpg Feeling oily yet? It only gets worse my friend... >If China gets CF before we do, we are toast. Also, China is not a >pleasant place to work, being very polluted. Why? Who do you think will be manufacturing the CF devices? The manufacturing base in this country is long gone. We'll be buying it from them no matter how things play out. In fact, the patent situation being what it is, we're already precluded from commercial success here in America. I mean, if all that business with the DOE wasn't about trying to change things at the USPTO, then what was it? K. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 27 14:19:45 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1RMJR1F005253; Sun, 27 Feb 2005 14:19:28 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1RMJO5a005221; Sun, 27 Feb 2005 14:19:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 14:19:24 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002801c51d1a$63407110$8a017841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: a cause celebre? Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 16:19:21 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0024_01C51CE8.1814E4A0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-98.9 required=4.0 tests=HTML_40_50,HTML_MESSAGE, J_CHICKENPOX_64,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58114 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0024_01C51CE8.1814E4A0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0025_01C51CE8.1814E4A0" ------=_NextPart_001_0025_01C51CE8.1814E4A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankShort but to the point.. Storms put it in context... If China get = CF before we do, we are toast. Of the alternates suggested.. jealousy, vanity,lust and.. the best = motivation is "Greed" Suggestion,, the University may be challenged to match funds pledged by = private business interests for the advancement of science. The pledges = may be conditioned by stipulations including the specific research and = the researcher. Nothing gets the attention of a University more than an = offer of partial funding. They simply begin looking for a way to make = things work out rather than look for ways to say no! Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0025_01C51CE8.1814E4A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Short but to the point.. Storms put it in = context... If=20 China get CF before we do, we are toast.
 
Of the alternates suggested.. jealousy, = vanity,lust=20 and.. the best motivation is "Greed"
 
Suggestion,, the University may be challenged = to match=20 funds pledged by private business interests for the advancement of = science. The=20 pledges may be conditioned by stipulations including the specific = research and=20 the researcher. Nothing gets the attention of a University more than an = offer of=20 partial funding. They simply begin looking for a way to make things work = out=20 rather than look for ways to say no!
 
Richard
 
 
 

 

------=_NextPart_001_0025_01C51CE8.1814E4A0-- ------=_NextPart_000_0024_01C51CE8.1814E4A0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <002301c51d1a$62a19900$8a017841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0024_01C51CE8.1814E4A0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 27 14:45:14 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1RMiu1F012739; Sun, 27 Feb 2005 14:44:56 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1RMiqTe012700; Sun, 27 Feb 2005 14:44:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 14:44:52 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050227224451.006a4ef4 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 22:44:51 +0000 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: A cause celebre? Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58115 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 02:28 pm 27-02-05 -0500, Jed wrote: >Frank Grimer writes: > >> I have a suggestion - but you will probably find it far >> too Machiavellian. I believe, and I speak from real life >> experience, that the best way to get people's attention >> is to scare the shit out of them. > I could frighten them if I could get their attention, You want people's attention? I'll give you people's attention. Repeat the Pons and Fleishmann experiment, only this time, instead of a one centimeter cube, use a 6 inch cube. ====================================================== In EXCESS HEAT, page 36, Beaudette writes, ------------------------------------------------------ Kevin Ashley was a graduate student of Pons in the chemistry department. He witnessed the scene the morning after the meltdown. "This one morning I walk in, the door is open and Pons and Fleischmann are in the room with Joe:.. The lab is a mess and there is particulate dust in the air. On this lab bench are the remnants of an experiment. The bench was one of those black top benches that was made of very, very hard material. There were cabinets under one end of the bench, but the experiment was near the middle where there was nothing underneath. I was astonished that there was a hole through the thing. The hole was about a foot in diameter. Under the hole was a pretty good sized pit in the concrete floor. It may have been as much as four inches deep. "What really surprised me," Ashley continued, "was that Stan and Martin Fleischmann had these looks on their faces as though they were the car that had just swallowed the canary. The:' were clearly not displeased with this mess, They were happy about what had happened. I was rather surprised by this, very surprised by this." ====================================================== I know how they felt. I felt exactly the same when I inspected GRC clad buildings which were falling apart. On one occasion at the high security Midland Bank Computer Building in Sheffield my glee was so manifest I had to explain to my minders that though they were attending a funeral I was celebrating a wedding. And if buildings crumble and grad students die - tough! When will Americans learn that success in things that really matter cannot be bought with dollars - it has to be bought with blood. If Brits hadn't learned the "blood, sweat toil and tears." lesson well in 1940s the Falklands would now be under the jackboot of an Galtieri dictatorship. You want press attention? I'll give you press attention. Start a research program to develop a CF bomb with the avowed intention of saving America by getting there before the terrorists do. You will get all the press attention you can handle - and then some. Probably get quite a lot of financial support from crazy gun lobby billionaires too, I shouldn't wonder. As for global warming, only overfed western liberals who've nothing better to worry about give a damn. Who cares whether the world lasts another hundred or another thousand years. We'll all be dead long before that anyway. Cheers ;-) Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 27 14:54:17 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1RMs5Sg015498; Sun, 27 Feb 2005 14:54:05 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1RMs2lK015474; Sun, 27 Feb 2005 14:54:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 14:54:02 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <004201c51d1f$3a858df0$8a017841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: a cause celebre" Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 16:53:58 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_003E_01C51CEC.EE7016B0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-99.2 required=4.0 tests=HTML_30_40,HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58116 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003E_01C51CEC.EE7016B0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_003F_01C51CEC.EE7016B0" ------=_NextPart_001_003F_01C51CEC.EE7016B0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankA defeatist attitude insures only one thing .. defeat.=20 A short story follows.. a few years back, at the national Weftec = conference we had a booth exhibiting our product line. At the time = Vivendi-US Filter of France was the king of the hill in water treating = equipment manufacturing. Overheard was a comment by one of their people = stating they would run our small firm ,building a single product line = ,out of business in a year. Shazzaam! They are now back in the porn = movie business where they belong, having sold US Filter to Seimens of = Germany. Seimens, being too smart to fight a winner is ceding the specific market = to us just as Severn-Trent is doing.=20 All of which means if you are tough smart and tenacious you have, at the = least, a chance. LENR-CANR has a chance, perhaps slim or great..For = sure, you cant play poker with scared money. No more defeatist chatter.. organize, develope a winning strategy and = assign tasks.. time is on your side as long as progress is being made. = Battles are won and lost in the mind before any shots are fired. Ask = Napoleon who won and how? Richard ------=_NextPart_001_003F_01C51CEC.EE7016B0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
A defeatist attitude insures only one thing .. = defeat.=20
 
A short story follows.. a few years back, at = the=20 national Weftec conference we had a booth exhibiting our product line. = At the=20 time Vivendi-US Filter of France was the king of the hill in water = treating=20 equipment manufacturing. Overheard was a comment by one of their people = stating=20 they would run our small firm ,building a single product line ,out of = business=20 in a year. Shazzaam! They are now back in the porn movie business where = they=20 belong, having sold US Filter to Seimens of Germany.
 
Seimens, being too smart to fight a winner is = ceding the=20 specific market to us just as Severn-Trent is doing.
 
All of which means if you are tough smart and = tenacious=20 you have, at the least, a chance. LENR-CANR has a chance, perhaps slim = or=20 great..For sure, you cant play poker with scared money.
 
No more defeatist chatter.. organize, develope = a winning=20 strategy and assign tasks.. time is on your side as long as progress is = being=20 made. Battles are won and lost in the mind before any shots are fired. = Ask=20 Napoleon who won and how?
 
Richard
------=_NextPart_001_003F_01C51CEC.EE7016B0-- ------=_NextPart_000_003E_01C51CEC.EE7016B0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <003d01c51d1f$39077970$8a017841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_003E_01C51CEC.EE7016B0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 27 15:42:21 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1RNg4gB029946; Sun, 27 Feb 2005 15:42:04 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1RNg0P7029900; Sun, 27 Feb 2005 15:42:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 15:42:00 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001401c51d25$ed6f58a0$8a017841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: a cause celebre' Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 17:41:54 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0010_01C51CF3.A0872810"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-99.5 required=4.0 tests=HTML_40_50,HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58117 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C51CF3.A0872810 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0011_01C51CF3.A0872810" ------=_NextPart_001_0011_01C51CF3.A0872810 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankGosh! Keith.. Grimer has me in here because I'm crazy, not stupid. = Going to Houston doesn't mean sticking my head in Exxon's mouth. The = idea is to approach money for " seed " money. Foundations love to" = participate" NOT carry the bucket. Besides, you fudged on the pic of the girl.. she's not wearing safety = goggles. a no no! Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0011_01C51CF3.A0872810 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Gosh! Keith.. Grimer has me in here because = I'm crazy,=20 not stupid. Going to Houston doesn't mean sticking my head in Exxon's = mouth. The=20 idea is to approach money for " seed " money. Foundations love to" = participate"=20 NOT carry the bucket.
 
Besides, you fudged on the pic of the girl.. = she's not=20 wearing safety goggles. a no no!
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_0011_01C51CF3.A0872810-- ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C51CF3.A0872810 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000f01c51d25$eb1b7d90$8a017841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C51CF3.A0872810-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 27 15:51:45 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1RNpTgB032438; Sun, 27 Feb 2005 15:51:33 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1RNpR9a032417; Sun, 27 Feb 2005 15:51:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 15:51:27 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=40wzT6+UG43kEVklc5xv76Dvq+UMLqY3J8wSfWMRg7yU3+0HvUwfwHbjIJjEE/9QNwif9SuupGzP27N4Zy3Dl742r2FIWbVc/VZwa/1tJpnTtMHbSGtA16xgLVmVuI1JbvkKPghf6v228OAzNNm/exFfhaLc87B13roPqN/cye4= ; Message-ID: <20050227235115.79120.qmail web51710.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 15:51:15 -0800 (PST) From: Terry Blanton Subject: Re: Change is in the details & DVC To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <00a201c51c4e$24e2d740$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58118 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- Jones Beene wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > > > Perhaps you have followed Chaplin's link to > Glastonbury > and > > the mystical significance of that weird Vesica > Pisces > > And way beyond there, Frank .... Did anyone mention the VP replaces the Roman Arch in Cathedrals? For that matter, who funded the Cathedrals? Can anyone prove it was the Templars? __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Sports - Sign up for Fantasy Baseball. http://baseball.fantasysports.yahoo.com/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 27 15:53:45 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1RNrVgB000640; Sun, 27 Feb 2005 15:53:31 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1RNrRcL000599; Sun, 27 Feb 2005 15:53:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 15:53:27 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <30722610.1109548403644.JavaMail.root wamui06.slb.atl.earthlink.net> Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 18:53:23 -0500 (GMT-05:00) From: Jed Rothwell Reply-To: Jed Rothwell To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: a cause celebre? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Earthlink Zoo Mail 1.0 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58119 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: RC Macaulay wrote: > Suggestion,, the University may be challenged to match funds pledged by private business interests for the > advancement of science. As I said, Miles needs the cooperation of the government, not only for the money, but for materials from the Navy. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 27 16:03:44 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1S03DgB003783; Sun, 27 Feb 2005 16:03:18 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1S03AIX003749; Sun, 27 Feb 2005 16:03:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 16:03:10 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=47xBRPABbW+ZMLQ+CrTOSM/Ay7iBNIf1Fh7OjPr4qYPSAL0RlHDKvogGl/Lp89lmeXJW3iE0Xj/brlMBlU8nkTVnW4nKfUxyzj68/V1bMVRFtwX3qO9J31xkEwex0iiSoYW2dmeZFX7B+21i7Lkv7r3EeeURd3HcEeN3VdPvwTY= ; Message-ID: <20050228000051.93171.qmail web51703.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 16:00:51 -0800 (PST) From: Terry Blanton Subject: Re: A cause celebre? To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.20050227174655.00b69898 pop.freeserve.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58120 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- Grimer wrote: > It's no good saying "the development of small CF > bombs is unlikely". Until we know why and how cold > fusion works we are only guessing as to what's > likely and what ain't. On the contrary, consider the hypothetical situation that the reason the DoE won't fund the project is because of how *easy* it is to make a "leaner (LENR) bomb". It's a lot harder to build a nuke pile in a stadium in Chicago than a hot jar in Utah. "drip, drip, drip" __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 27 16:26:14 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1S0Q2gB010040; Sun, 27 Feb 2005 16:26:06 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1S0PxcF010001; Sun, 27 Feb 2005 16:25:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 16:25:59 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=bbXmvvTVXC/oLnIxQWA/Azr0DHSj/2TjQaf3EGX1S45MIVBMrp++wqWAXbNBVg1ky3pmsvtHLW5mkpSNZ6U83jRoU4bHJkmxYL2jOIF4ulF8XJLe8EdDLKY6XVwgSiat0DPx5muOHer4cf0vakId/ZtJVxlh1d77drODdwyRIP4= ; Message-ID: <20050228002552.1163.qmail web51703.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 16:25:51 -0800 (PST) From: Terry Blanton Subject: [OT] Gnosticism To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <8tfcOB.A.McC.XUmICB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58121 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Vorts interested should read Pagels "Beyond Belief": >http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0375703160/qid=1109550256/sr=8-2/ref=pd_bbs_2/103-8739248-7293410?v=glance&s=books&n=507846< __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Sports - Sign up for Fantasy Baseball. http://baseball.fantasysports.yahoo.com/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 27 17:14:39 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1S1EMgB030425; Sun, 27 Feb 2005 17:14:22 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1S1EJwp030405; Sun, 27 Feb 2005 17:14:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 17:14:19 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20050227170955.00b14420 mail.dlsi.net> X-Sender: steven%newenergytimes.com mail.dlsi.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 17:18:42 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: A cause celebre? In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.20050227224451.006a4ef4 pop.freeserve.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <-iL0xD.A.9aH.qBnICB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58122 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frank, >You want press attention? > >I'll give you press attention. > >Start a research program to develop a CF bomb with the >avowed intention of saving America by getting there >before the terrorists do. You will get all the press >attention you can handle - and then some. Probably >get quite a lot of financial support from crazy gun >lobby billionaires too, I shouldn't wonder. Charles called the "incident" a meltdown. I'm not quite sure why he labeled it as such. I interviewed Ashley as well, and also read Taubes' interview of Ashley. They all match. I talked with Martin about this in as much detail as he was willing and able to remember. There was particulate in the air in the morning - but nothing was burning. The hole in the concrete floor was 30cm wide by 10cm deep. Somebody want to tell me that the concrete *melted*? I don't think so. Steve From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 27 17:49:33 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1S1nHgB009314; Sun, 27 Feb 2005 17:49:17 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1S1nB5l009261; Sun, 27 Feb 2005 17:49:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 17:49:11 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20050227175245.00b08d80 mail.dlsi.net> X-Sender: steven%newenergytimes.com mail.dlsi.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 17:53:28 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: A cause celebre? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58123 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > >Because he said he will probably retire. He is giving up. He has been >trying for years to get funding. He even thought of going to China. I shot >back an answer saying "Wait! I will do my best to help." The other readers >here should pitch in, and tell Mel Miles you stand with him. > >- Jed Jed, I think our best tools and weapons are the Internet. In light of the fact that what we have here is a failure to communicate between the cold fusion community and the rest of the world, I am thinking of developing some video documentary segments and putting them up on New Energy Times. These are my understandings: - The general public is much more receptive to video than they are print. - Since we are dealing with a -belief- and -perception- problem, and not a fact problem, the effect of a "real live" person talking, appearing visually, can not only have a far more powerful effect to reach people, but it also has the ability to carry emotions, which text does not. And emotions, not facts, are what drive people to act and respond. This is my situation and proposal: I am in a position to create a short video documentary of Mel. He lives just an hour away from me. I just went down to SPAWAR and filmed Szpak, Boss and Gordon a few weeks ago in anticipation of their forthcoming Volume 3. We shot about 1.5 hours talking about many aspects in general, as well as their unique contribution to the field, co-deposition. I did that shoot on the cheap with a local filmmaker who's had some experience doing documentaries and who is sympathetic to cold fusion. Mind you, he's not a producer-type, deep-pockets-type, Chris is a hands-on tech-type and knows how to stage, shoot and edit. I have not yet figured out what level and quality of post-production I want to do on the SPAWAR segment yet. Part of that depends on funds. So I can see doing some film work with Mel's situation. I know his story and could easily have a nice talk with him on-camera, maybe get some of the ULV administrators on camera showing their support of Mel, etc. Here is my situation: My computer niche has slowly obsoleted itself, down to now about 5% of my time. I've had plans to start up in a new business altogether, but a few weeks ago, after I produced newsletter #8, an individual said he liked what I was doing - and offered to kick in some limited support. For the moment, I am doing everything I can for this cause, directing my attention to provide news and educational information on the field. I've got a few projects on the burner right now. I'm giving two presentations at APS in March, and I have newsletter #9 in the works. Between the Mizuno explosion and the Miles/Horwitz issue, I'm scrambling as quick as I can to write and edit. Once that's done, I'm going to engage in a hunt for additional funding to continue this work. The point of all this, coming back to the thread, is that if anybody is interested in helping to pay the post-production costs for either/both the SPAWAR segment and a future M.Miles segment, I will make them happen and make the documentaries freely available on the Web. The costs to shoot are relatively inexpensive, but I don't know off the top of my head the post-production (editing etc.) costs. If anyone is interested in funding this project, I can get pricing options. Also, tax-deductible donations can be arranged. However, there is an unavoidable fact that must be considered with this outreach idea: We still need a news hook. We can make the most interesting, inspiring short documentary, but if the public doesn't CLEARLY have something to tie the situation to in their own lives - it won't go any further than preaching to the choir. The story needs to reach people that have not yet been reached on the subject of cold fusion. What would drive people to learn about this story? What fear? What desire? People need to picture gasoline at $10 or $20 a gallon. Or rising ocean water levels. Or more extinct species. Or buying cold fusion "batteries" from China. By the way, the predecessor to my book, The 2004 Cold Fusion Report has been translated into Chinese (by volunteers, no less) and is in the editing and proof-reading phase...I think this shows some rather strong interest. So I guess this is where I come full circle - and arrive without a crucial answer to this enigma. How to get the attention of people who don't know and don't care, but would really want to know and care - if they only knew -- just a little more. I leave this question in the hands of the brilliant group mind of Vortex. One further thought...as Grimer noted, on the subject of Machiavelli. Do we really expect the government to support cold fusion? Is this a fantasy? Honestly, I think the best way to get the USG to fund cold fusion is for China to show up with a cold fusion reactor or heater. Sputnik, the sequel. Steve From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 27 18:44:55 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1S2iKgB029329; Sun, 27 Feb 2005 18:44:20 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1S2iIti029315; Sun, 27 Feb 2005 18:44:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 18:44:18 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Baronvolsung aol.com Message-ID: <6a.5002e820.2f53df75 aol.com> Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 21:44:05 EST Subject: Re: Incredible battery and TOE To: vortex-l eskimo.com CC: ThomasClark123 aol.com, Baronvolsung@aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_6a.5002e820.2f53df75_boundary" X-Mailer: 6.0 sub 10578 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58124 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --part1_6a.5002e820.2f53df75_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/24/05 12:01:10 PM Pacific Standard Time, jonesb9 pacbell.net writes: this is mostly new from the BLP site. http://www.blacklightpower.com/pdf/Theory%20Pres%20020905%20std%202.pdf The above link discusses the Unified Maxwell Theory based on Relativity which is very helpful, but we should also consider the comments below by Konstantine Meyl, in his book Scalar Waves about Unified Theory: Scalar Waves by Konstantine Meyl, Pg. 530 to 566., 2003 Indel: "Demokrit (460-370 BC) equated the vortex concept with "Law of nature "= the first attempt to formulate a unified physics. Comparison of Faraday's Universal Theory of Objectivity to the special case of Maxwell's Theory and Relativity: Faraday's Universal Theory of Objectivity based on the law of unipolar induction 1. The Farady approach is universal 2. It reveals a physical principle 3. The field is the cause for the particles 4. Principles of causality are preserved. 5. Particles are probably field configurations 6. Quanta can be calculated as field vortices without any hypothesis. 7. All quantum properties can be calculated likewise. 8. Potential vortices form electrical field vortices. The E field is a source free vortex field. 9. Field vortices carry momentum and form a scalar wave. 10. Longitudinal wave with arbitrary velocity of propagation v. Maxwell Theory and Relativity: 1. Maxwell's field equations can be derived. 2. The field equations describe only a special case 3. Particle and field are cause and effect at the same time. 4. Violation of the rules of causality. 5. Particle consist of hypothetic subparticles. 6. Quark-hypothesis must replace missing calculation. 7. Sorting and systematizing of the properties of the standard model. 8. The electric field is irrotational. The E field is an irrotational field of sources 9.Electromagnetic wave is a transverse wave. 10. Constant propagation with the speed of light c. According to the Maxwell theory there exists no vortixes of the electric field (no potential vortices) and therefore no scalar waves. ... For the description of the losses the Maxwell theory on the one hand only offers field vortices and those only in the conductive medium. On the other hand do the dielectric losses occure in the nonconductor and in the air. In conductive materials vortex fields occur, in the insulator however the fields are irrotational. That isn't possible, since at the transition from the conductor to the insulator the laws of refraction are valid and these require continuity! Hence a failure of the Maxwell theory will occur in the dielectric. As a consequence the existence of vortex fields in the dielectric, so called potential vortices should be required! The Maxwell equations on the one hand dictate that as the reason for a wave damping only field vortices should be considered. On the other hand the same laws merely describe eddy currents, which can only occur in the electrically conducting parts of the antenna. On the one hand the field vortex interpretations makes it possible to explain the noise of the antenna perfectly ... In field physics on the other hand is missing a useful description of electrical field vortices in a dielectric, which could found the noise signal. According to Maxwell Theory: Longitudinal waves run in the direction of a field pointer. The field pointer oscillates, the vector of velocity oscillates along! At relativistic velocities field vortices are subject to the Lorentz contraction. The faster the oscillating vortex is on its way, the smaller it gets. The vortex permanently changes its diameter. With the diameter the wavelength decreases. The swirl velocity is constant (=speed of light c). The eigenfrequency of the vortex oscillates with opposite phase to the wavelength. The vortex acts as a frequency converter! The measurable mixture of frequencies is called noise. The antenna noise corresponds to the antenna losses! Mathematically seen the damping- resp. vortex according to Maxwell can be put equal to the scalar wave term according to Laplace. Physically seen the generated field vortices form and found a scalar wave. .. In the case of the antenna example the vortex part amounts to 20 percent, then that's tantamount to 20 percent scalar wave part, resp. 20 percent noise. The scalar wave part constitutes with regard to the Hertzian useful wave something like an error term in the wave equation. The part definitely is to big, as that it might be equal to zero. Even so all error considerations in textbooks is missing, if the scalar wave term is assumed to be zero. That violates all rules of physics and of taught scientific methodism. .. If an antenna on the one hand produces field vortices and as a consequence eddy losses and on the other hand dielectric losses, then we can assume that besides the eddy currents in the conductor also vortices in the dielectric must exist. Potential vortices explain div. phenomena in the dielectric: 1. The noise is not longer factored out of the field theory. 2. The scalar (noise) part in the wave equation no longer has to be put to 0 (div E not = 0). 3. The wave descriptions according to Maxwell and according to Laplace are consistent and free of contradiction. 4. The dielectric losses of an antenna can be found physically and even can be calculated with the wave equation. 5. Also the dielectric losses of a capacitor are eddy losses ( and not a defect in material of the insulating material). 6. The capacitor losses correspond to a generated noise power. 7. The dielectric constant e (epsilon) doesn't have to be written down as until now to give reasons for the occurring losses, and so the inner contradiction is solved, which is hidden in a complex constant. One should only remember the definition of the speed of light c= 1/square root (e u). and the insurmountable problems in the textbooks which are brought by a complex e. 8. The field lines point from one capacitor plate to the other plate. If one plate radiates as a transmitter and the other plate functions as a receiver, then the field propagation takes place in the direction of the electric field pointer and that again is the condition for a longitudinal wave. 9. The capacitor field mediates dielectric field vortices, which following the field lines found a scalar wave because of their scalar nature. 10. As an inhabitant of a dielectric between tow capacitor plates (earth and ionosphere) also man is a product of these field vortices. 11. Scalar waves can be modulated more dimensionally and be used as a carrier of information, as Prof. Sheldrake has proven with his proof of the existence of morphogenetic fields. Mathematical description of a wave by the inhomogenous Laplace equation: (Laplace Operator) Triangle E * c^2= (transverse radio wave) -rot rot E * c^2 + (Longitudinal Scalar Wave) grad div E * c^2 = (Wave) d^2E/d^2t where d^2 = the second derivative operator, c = the speed of light. Field equation of a damped transverse wave: -rot rot E * c^2 (transverse) = d^2E/dt^2 + 1/tau (wave) * dE/dt (vortex damping) where tau= relaxation time = epsilon(e)/sigma and dielectric displacement D = e * E and rot H = e * (E/tau + d^2E/dt^2) and B = u * H, with u * e = 1/c^2. The complete Field equations with time constants tau sub 1 and tau sub 2 of the respective field vortex by the extension of the law of induction for vortices of the electric field (potential vortices): Completely extended law of induction with B = u * H rot E = - dB/dt - B/tau sub 2 = - u (dH/dt + h/tau sub 2) and the well known law of Ampere (with D = e * E)" rot H = dD/dt + D/tau sub 1 = e (dE/dt + E/tau sub 2) Fundemntal Field Equation: -c^2 rot rot E = d^2 E/dt^2 + (1/tau sub 1) * dE/dt + (1/tau sup 2) * dE/dt + E/tau sub 1 tau sub 2 + eddy current + potantial vortex + 1/U. Scalar Waves by Konstantine Meyl, Pg. 530 to 566., 2003 Indell" Baron Von Volsung, www.rhfweb.com\baron, Email: www.rhfweb.com\emailform.html President Thomas D. Clark, Email: www.rhfweb.com\emailform.html, Personal Web Page: www.rhfweb.com\personal New Age Production's Inc., www.rhfweb.com\newage Star Haven Community Services, at www.rhfweb.com\sh. Radiation Health Foundation Trust at www.rhfweb.com Making a difference one person at a time Get informed. Inform others. --part1_6a.5002e820.2f53df75_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message=20= dated 2/24/05 12:01:10 PM Pacific Standard Time, jonesb9 pacbell.net writes:


this is mostly new from the BLP site.=20

http://www.blacklightpower.com/pdf/Theory%20Pres%20020905%20std%= 202.pdf
=20
The above link discusses the Unified Maxwell Theory based on Relativity=20= which is very helpful, but we should also consider the comments below by Kon= stantine Meyl, in his book Scalar Waves about Unified Theory:

Scalar Waves by Konstantine Meyl, Pg. 530 to 566., 2003 Indel:

"Demokrit (460-370 BC) equated the vortex concept with "Law of nature= "=3D the first attempt to formulate a unified physics.=20

Comparison of Faraday's Universal Theory of Objectivity to the special c= ase of Maxwell's Theory and Relativity:

Faraday's Universal Theory of Objectivity based on the law of unipola= r induction

1. The Farady approach is universal
2. It reveals a physical principle
3. The field is the cause for the particles
4. Principles of causality are preserved.
5. Particles are probably field configurations
6. Quanta can be calculated as field vortices without any hypothesis.=20
7. All quantum properties can be calculated likewise.
8. Potential vortices form electrical field vortices. The E field is a s= ource free vortex field.
9. Field vortices carry momentum and form a scalar wave.=20
10. Longitudinal wave with arbitrary velocity of propagation v.=20

Maxwell Theory and Relativity:

1. Maxwell's field equations can be derived.=20
2. The field equations describe only a special case
3. Particle and field are cause and effect at the same time.
4. Violation of the rules of causality.=20
5. Particle consist of hypothetic subparticles.
6. Quark-hypothesis must replace missing calculation.
7. Sorting and systematizing of the properties of the standard model.=20
8. The electric field is irrotational. The E field is an irrotational fi= eld of sources=20
9.Electromagnetic wave is a transverse wave.=20
10. Constant propagation with the speed of light c.=20

According to the Maxwell theory there exists no vortixes of the electric= field (no potential vortices) and therefore no scalar waves. ...

For the description of the losses the Maxwell theory on the one hand onl= y offers field vortices and those only in the conductive medium.  On th= e other hand do the dielectric losses occure in the nonconductor and in the=20= air.   In conductive materials vortex fields occur, in the insulat= or however the fields are irrotational.  That isn't possible, since at=20= the transition from the conductor to the insulator the laws of refraction ar= e valid and these require continuity!  Hence a failure of the Maxwell t= heory will occur in the dielectric.  As a consequence the existence of=20= vortex fields in the dielectric, so called potential vortices should be requ= ired!

The Maxwell equations on the one hand dictate that as the reason for a w= ave damping only field vortices should be considered.  On the other han= d the same laws merely describe eddy currents, which can only occur in the e= lectrically conducting parts of the antenna.  On the one hand the field= vortex interpretations makes it possible to explain the noise of the antenn= a perfectly  ... In field physics on the other hand is missing a useful= description of electrical field vortices in a dielectric, which could found= the noise signal.=20

According to Maxwell Theory:

Longitudinal waves run in the direction of a field pointer.
The field pointer oscillates, the vector of velocity oscillates along!
At relativistic velocities field vortices are subject to the Lorentz con= traction.=20
The faster the oscillating vortex is on its way, the smaller it gets.
The vortex permanently changes its diameter.
With the diameter the wavelength decreases.=20
The swirl velocity is constant (=3Dspeed of light c).
The eigenfrequency of the vortex oscillates with opposite phase to the w= avelength.=20
The vortex acts as a frequency converter!
The measurable mixture of frequencies is called noise.=20

The antenna noise corresponds to the antenna losses!

Mathematically seen the damping- resp. vortex according to Maxwell can b= e put equal to the scalar wave term according to Laplace.=20
Physically seen the generated field vortices form and found a scalar wav= e.  ..

In the case of the antenna example the vortex part amounts to 20 percent= , then that's tantamount to 20 percent scalar wave part, resp. 20 percent no= ise.  The scalar wave part constitutes with regard to the Hertzian usef= ul wave something like an error term in the wave equation.  The part de= finitely is to big, as that it might be equal to zero.  Even so all err= or considerations in textbooks is missing, if the scalar wave term is assume= d to be zero.  That violates all rules of physics and of taught scienti= fic methodism.  ..

If an antenna on the one hand produces field vortices and as a consequen= ce eddy losses and on the other hand dielectric losses, then we can assume t= hat besides the eddy currents in the conductor also vortices in the dielectr= ic must exist.=20

Potential vortices explain div. phenomena in the dielectric:

1. The noise is not longer factored out of the field theory.=20
2. The scalar (noise) part in the wave equation no longer has to be put=20= to 0 (div E not =3D 0).
3. The wave descriptions according to Maxwell and according to Laplace a= re consistent and free of contradiction.=20
4. The dielectric losses of an antenna can be found physically and even=20= can be calculated with the wave equation.=20
5. Also the dielectric losses of a capacitor are eddy losses ( and not a= defect in material of the insulating material).
6. The capacitor losses correspond to a generated noise power.=20
7. The dielectric constant e (epsilon) doesn't have to be written down a= s until now to give reasons for the occurring losses, and so the inner contr= adiction is solved, which is hidden in a complex constant.  One should=20= only remember the definition of the speed of light c=3D 1/square root (e u).=  and the insurmountable problems  in the textbooks which are brou= ght by a complex e.=20
8. The field lines point from one capacitor plate to the other plate. &n= bsp;If one plate radiates as a transmitter and the other plate functions as=20= a receiver, then the field propagation takes place in the direction of the e= lectric field pointer and that again is the condition for a longitudinal wav= e.=20
9. The capacitor field mediates dielectric field vortices, which followi= ng the field lines found a scalar wave because of their scalar nature.=20
10. As an inhabitant of a dielectric between tow capacitor plates (earth= and ionosphere) also man is a product of these field vortices.=20
11. Scalar waves can be modulated more dimensionally and be used as a ca= rrier of information, as Prof. Sheldrake has proven with his proof of the ex= istence of morphogenetic fields.=20

Mathematical description of a wave by the inhomogenous Laplace equati= on:

(Laplace Operator) Triangle E  * c^2=3D (transverse radio wave) -ro= t rot E * c^2 + (Longitudinal Scalar Wave) grad div E * c^2 =3D (Wave) d^2E/= d^2t where d^2 =3D the second derivative operator, c =3D the speed of light.= =20

Field equation of a damped transverse wave:

-rot rot E * c^2 (transverse) =3D d^2E/dt^2 + 1/tau (wave) * dE/dt (vort= ex damping) where tau=3D relaxation time =3D epsilon(e)/sigma and dielectric= displacement D =3D e * E and rot H =3D e * (E/tau + d^2E/dt^2) and B =3D u=20= * H, with u * e =3D   1/c^2.  

The complete Field equations with time constants tau sub 1 and tau su= b 2 of the respective field vortex by the extension of the law of induction=20= for vortices of the electric field (potential vortices):

Completely extended law of induction with B =3D u * H
rot E =3D - dB/dt - B/tau sub 2 =3D - u (dH/dt + h/tau sub 2)
and the well known law of Ampere (with D =3D e * E)"
rot H =3D dD/dt + D/tau sub 1 =3D e (dE/dt + E/tau sub 2)

Fundemntal Field Equation:

-c^2 rot rot E =3D d^2 E/dt^2 + (1/tau sub 1) * dE/dt + (1/tau sup 2) *=20= dE/dt + E/tau sub 1 tau sub 2 + eddy current + potantial vortex + 1/U.

Scalar Waves by Konstantine Meyl, Pg. 530 to 566., 2003 Indell"




























Baron Von Volsung, www.rhfweb.co= m\baron, Email: www.rhf= web.com\emailform.html=20
President Thomas D. Clark, Email: www.rhfweb.com\emailform.html,=20
Personal Web Page: www.rhfweb= .com\personal=20
New Age Production's Inc., www.= rhfweb.com\newage=20
Star Haven Community Services, at w= ww.rhfweb.com\sh.=20
Radiation Health Foundation Trust at = www.rhfweb.com=20

Making a difference one person at a time=20
Get informed. Inform others.=20
--part1_6a.5002e820.2f53df75_boundary-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 27 18:45:11 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1S2iXgB029420; Sun, 27 Feb 2005 18:44:34 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1S2iQ3d029379; Sun, 27 Feb 2005 18:44:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 18:44:26 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Baronvolsung aol.com Message-ID: <62.4fa72c8a.2f53df7e aol.com> Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 21:44:14 EST Subject: Unified Theory To: vortex-l eskimo.com CC: ThomasClark123 aol.com, Baronvolsung@aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_62.4fa72c8a.2f53df7e_boundary" X-Mailer: 6.0 sub 10578 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58125 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --part1_62.4fa72c8a.2f53df7e_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/24/05 12:01:10 PM Pacific Standard Time, jonesb9 pacbell.net writes: this is mostly new from the BLP site. http://www.blacklightpower.com/pdf/Theory%20Pres%20020905%20std%202.pdf The above link discusses the Unified Maxwell Theory based on Relativity which is very helpful, but we should also consider the comments below by Konstantine Meyl, in his book Scalar Waves about Unified Theory: Scalar Waves by Konstantine Meyl, Pg. 530 to 566., 2003 Indel: "Demokrit (460-370 BC) equated the vortex concept with "Law of nature "= the first attempt to formulate a unified physics. Comparison of Faraday's Universal Theory of Objectivity to the special case of Maxwell's Theory and Relativity: Faraday's Universal Theory of Objectivity based on the law of unipolar induction 1. The Farady approach is universal 2. It reveals a physical principle 3. The field is the cause for the particles 4. Principles of causality are preserved. 5. Particles are probably field configurations 6. Quanta can be calculated as field vortices without any hypothesis. 7. All quantum properties can be calculated likewise. 8. Potential vortices form electrical field vortices. The E field is a source free vortex field. 9. Field vortices carry momentum and form a scalar wave. 10. Longitudinal wave with arbitrary velocity of propagation v. Maxwell Theory and Relativity: 1. Maxwell's field equations can be derived. 2. The field equations describe only a special case 3. Particle and field are cause and effect at the same time. 4. Violation of the rules of causality. 5. Particle consist of hypothetic subparticles. 6. Quark-hypothesis must replace missing calculation. 7. Sorting and systematizing of the properties of the standard model. 8. The electric field is irrotational. The E field is an irrotational field of sources 9.Electromagnetic wave is a transverse wave. 10. Constant propagation with the speed of light c. According to the Maxwell theory there exists no vortixes of the electric field (no potential vortices) and therefore no scalar waves. ... For the description of the losses the Maxwell theory on the one hand only offers field vortices and those only in the conductive medium. On the other hand do the dielectric losses occure in the nonconductor and in the air. In conductive materials vortex fields occur, in the insulator however the fields are irrotational. That isn't possible, since at the transition from the conductor to the insulator the laws of refraction are valid and these require continuity! Hence a failure of the Maxwell theory will occur in the dielectric. As a consequence the existence of vortex fields in the dielectric, so called potential vortices should be required! The Maxwell equations on the one hand dictate that as the reason for a wave damping only field vortices should be considered. On the other hand the same laws merely describe eddy currents, which can only occur in the electrically conducting parts of the antenna. On the one hand the field vortex interpretations makes it possible to explain the noise of the antenna perfectly ... In field physics on the other hand is missing a useful description of electrical field vortices in a dielectric, which could found the noise signal. According to Maxwell Theory: Longitudinal waves run in the direction of a field pointer. The field pointer oscillates, the vector of velocity oscillates along! At relativistic velocities field vortices are subject to the Lorentz contraction. The faster the oscillating vortex is on its way, the smaller it gets. The vortex permanently changes its diameter. With the diameter the wavelength decreases. The swirl velocity is constant (=speed of light c). The eigenfrequency of the vortex oscillates with opposite phase to the wavelength. The vortex acts as a frequency converter! The measurable mixture of frequencies is called noise. The antenna noise corresponds to the antenna losses! Mathematically seen the damping- resp. vortex according to Maxwell can be put equal to the scalar wave term according to Laplace. Physically seen the generated field vortices form and found a scalar wave. .. In the case of the antenna example the vortex part amounts to 20 percent, then that's tantamount to 20 percent scalar wave part, resp. 20 percent noise. The scalar wave part constitutes with regard to the Hertzian useful wave something like an error term in the wave equation. The part definitely is to big, as that it might be equal to zero. Even so all error considerations in textbooks is missing, if the scalar wave term is assumed to be zero. That violates all rules of physics and of taught scientific methodism. .. If an antenna on the one hand produces field vortices and as a consequence eddy losses and on the other hand dielectric losses, then we can assume that besides the eddy currents in the conductor also vortices in the dielectric must exist. Potential vortices explain div. phenomena in the dielectric: 1. The noise is not longer factored out of the field theory. 2. The scalar (noise) part in the wave equation no longer has to be put to 0 (div E not = 0). 3. The wave descriptions according to Maxwell and according to Laplace are consistent and free of contradiction. 4. The dielectric losses of an antenna can be found physically and even can be calculated with the wave equation. 5. Also the dielectric losses of a capacitor are eddy losses ( and not a defect in material of the insulating material). 6. The capacitor losses correspond to a generated noise power. 7. The dielectric constant e (epsilon) doesn't have to be written down as until now to give reasons for the occurring losses, and so the inner contradiction is solved, which is hidden in a complex constant. One should only remember the definition of the speed of light c= 1/square root (e u). and the insurmountable problems in the textbooks which are brought by a complex e. 8. The field lines point from one capacitor plate to the other plate. If one plate radiates as a transmitter and the other plate functions as a receiver, then the field propagation takes place in the direction of the electric field pointer and that again is the condition for a longitudinal wave. 9. The capacitor field mediates dielectric field vortices, which following the field lines found a scalar wave because of their scalar nature. 10. As an inhabitant of a dielectric between tow capacitor plates (earth and ionosphere) also man is a product of these field vortices. 11. Scalar waves can be modulated more dimensionally and be used as a carrier of information, as Prof. Sheldrake has proven with his proof of the existence of morphogenetic fields. Mathematical description of a wave by the inhomogenous Laplace equation: (Laplace Operator) Triangle E * c^2= (transverse radio wave) -rot rot E * c^2 + (Longitudinal Scalar Wave) grad div E * c^2 = (Wave) d^2E/d^2t where d^2 = the second derivative operator, c = the speed of light. Field equation of a damped transverse wave: -rot rot E * c^2 (transverse) = d^2E/dt^2 + 1/tau (wave) * dE/dt (vortex damping) where tau= relaxation time = epsilon(e)/sigma and dielectric displacement D = e * E and rot H = e * (E/tau + d^2E/dt^2) and B = u * H, with u * e = 1/c^2. The complete Field equations with time constants tau sub 1 and tau sub 2 of the respective field vortex by the extension of the law of induction for vortices of the electric field (potential vortices): Completely extended law of induction with B = u * H rot E = - dB/dt - B/tau sub 2 = - u (dH/dt + h/tau sub 2) and the well known law of Ampere (with D = e * E)" rot H = dD/dt + D/tau sub 1 = e (dE/dt + E/tau sub 2) Fundemntal Field Equation: -c^2 rot rot E = d^2 E/dt^2 + (1/tau sub 1) * dE/dt + (1/tau sup 2) * dE/dt + E/tau sub 1 tau sub 2 + eddy current + potantial vortex + 1/U. Scalar Waves by Konstantine Meyl, Pg. 530 to 566., 2003 Indell" Baron Von Volsung, www.rhfweb.com\baron, Email: www.rhfweb.com\emailform.html President Thomas D. Clark, Email: www.rhfweb.com\emailform.html, Personal Web Page: www.rhfweb.com\personal New Age Production's Inc., www.rhfweb.com\newage Star Haven Community Services, at www.rhfweb.com\sh. Radiation Health Foundation Trust at www.rhfweb.com Making a difference one person at a time Get informed. Inform others. --part1_62.4fa72c8a.2f53df7e_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In a message dated 2/24/05 12:01:10 PM Pacific Standard Time, jonesb9 pa= cbell.net writes:


this is mostly new from the BLP site.=20

http://www.blacklightpower.com/pdf/Theory%20Pres%20020905%20std%= 202.pdf
=20
The above link discusses the Unified Maxwell Theory based on Relativity=20= which is very helpful, but we should also consider the comments below by Kon= stantine Meyl, in his book Scalar Waves about Unified Theory:

Scalar Waves by Konstantine Meyl, Pg. 530 to 566., 2003 Indel:

"Demokrit (460-370 BC) equated the vortex concept with "Law of nature= "=3D the first attempt to formulate a unified physics.=20

Comparison of Faraday's Universal Theory of Objectivity to the special c= ase of Maxwell's Theory and Relativity:

Faraday's Universal Theory of Objectivity based on the law of unipola= r induction

1. The Farady approach is universal
2. It reveals a physical principle
3. The field is the cause for the particles
4. Principles of causality are preserved.
5. Particles are probably field configurations
6. Quanta can be calculated as field vortices without any hypothesis.=20
7. All quantum properties can be calculated likewise.
8. Potential vortices form electrical field vortices. The E field is a s= ource free vortex field.
9. Field vortices carry momentum and form a scalar wave.=20
10. Longitudinal wave with arbitrary velocity of propagation v.=20

Maxwell Theory and Relativity:

1. Maxwell's field equations can be derived.=20
2. The field equations describe only a special case
3. Particle and field are cause and effect at the same time.
4. Violation of the rules of causality.=20
5. Particle consist of hypothetic subparticles.
6. Quark-hypothesis must replace missing calculation.
7. Sorting and systematizing of the properties of the standard model.=20
8. The electric field is irrotational. The E field is an irrotational fi= eld of sources=20
9.Electromagnetic wave is a transverse wave.=20
10. Constant propagation with the speed of light c.=20

According to the Maxwell theory there exists no vortixes of the electric= field (no potential vortices) and therefore no scalar waves. ...

For the description of the losses the Maxwell theory on the one hand onl= y offers field vortices and those only in the conductive medium.  On th= e other hand do the dielectric losses occure in the nonconductor and in the=20= air.   In conductive materials vortex fields occur, in the insulat= or however the fields are irrotational.  That isn't possible, since at=20= the transition from the conductor to the insulator the laws of refraction ar= e valid and these require continuity!  Hence a failure of the Maxwell t= heory will occur in the dielectric.  As a consequence the existence of=20= vortex fields in the dielectric, so called potential vortices should be requ= ired!

The Maxwell equations on the one hand dictate that as the reason for a w= ave damping only field vortices should be considered.  On the other han= d the same laws merely describe eddy currents, which can only occur in the e= lectrically conducting parts of the antenna.  On the one hand the field= vortex interpretations makes it possible to explain the noise of the antenn= a perfectly  ... In field physics on the other hand is missing a useful= description of electrical field vortices in a dielectric, which could found= the noise signal.=20

According to Maxwell Theory:

Longitudinal waves run in the direction of a field pointer.
The field pointer oscillates, the vector of velocity oscillates along!
At relativistic velocities field vortices are subject to the Lorentz con= traction.=20
The faster the oscillating vortex is on its way, the smaller it gets.
The vortex permanently changes its diameter.
With the diameter the wavelength decreases.=20
The swirl velocity is constant (=3Dspeed of light c).
The eigenfrequency of the vortex oscillates with opposite phase to the w= avelength.=20
The vortex acts as a frequency converter!
The measurable mixture of frequencies is called noise.=20

The antenna noise corresponds to the antenna losses!

Mathematically seen the damping- resp. vortex according to Maxwell can b= e put equal to the scalar wave term according to Laplace.=20
Physically seen the generated field vortices form and found a scalar wav= e.  ..

In the case of the antenna example the vortex part amounts to 20 percent= , then that's tantamount to 20 percent scalar wave part, resp. 20 percent no= ise.  The scalar wave part constitutes with regard to the Hertzian usef= ul wave something like an error term in the wave equation.  The part de= finitely is to big, as that it might be equal to zero.  Even so all err= or considerations in textbooks is missing, if the scalar wave term is assume= d to be zero.  That violates all rules of physics and of taught scienti= fic methodism.  ..

If an antenna on the one hand produces field vortices and as a consequen= ce eddy losses and on the other hand dielectric losses, then we can assume t= hat besides the eddy currents in the conductor also vortices in the dielectr= ic must exist.=20

Potential vortices explain div. phenomena in the dielectric:

1. The noise is not longer factored out of the field theory.=20
2. The scalar (noise) part in the wave equation no longer has to be put=20= to 0 (div E not =3D 0).
3. The wave descriptions according to Maxwell and according to Laplace a= re consistent and free of contradiction.=20
4. The dielectric losses of an antenna can be found physically and even=20= can be calculated with the wave equation.=20
5. Also the dielectric losses of a capacitor are eddy losses ( and not a= defect in material of the insulating material).
6. The capacitor losses correspond to a generated noise power.=20
7. The dielectric constant e (epsilon) doesn't have to be written down a= s until now to give reasons for the occurring losses, and so the inner contr= adiction is solved, which is hidden in a complex constant.  One should=20= only remember the definition of the speed of light c=3D 1/square root (e u).=  and the insurmountable problems  in the textbooks which are brou= ght by a complex e.=20
8. The field lines point from one capacitor plate to the other plate. &n= bsp;If one plate radiates as a transmitter and the other plate functions as=20= a receiver, then the field propagation takes place in the direction of the e= lectric field pointer and that again is the condition for a longitudinal wav= e.=20
9. The capacitor field mediates dielectric field vortices, which followi= ng the field lines found a scalar wave because of their scalar nature.=20
10. As an inhabitant of a dielectric between tow capacitor plates (earth= and ionosphere) also man is a product of these field vortices.=20
11. Scalar waves can be modulated more dimensionally and be used as a ca= rrier of information, as Prof. Sheldrake has proven with his proof of the ex= istence of morphogenetic fields.=20

Mathematical description of a wave by the inhomogenous Laplace equati= on:

(Laplace Operator) Triangle E  * c^2=3D (transverse radio wave) -ro= t rot E * c^2 + (Longitudinal Scalar Wave) grad div E * c^2 =3D (Wave) d^2E/= d^2t where d^2 =3D the second derivative operator, c =3D the speed of light.= =20

Field equation of a damped transverse wave:

-rot rot E * c^2 (transverse) =3D d^2E/dt^2 + 1/tau (wave) * dE/dt (vort= ex damping) where tau=3D relaxation time =3D epsilon(e)/sigma and dielectric= displacement D =3D e * E and rot H =3D e * (E/tau + d^2E/dt^2) and B =3D u=20= * H, with u * e =3D   1/c^2.  

The complete Field equations with time constants tau sub 1 and tau su= b 2 of the respective field vortex by the extension of the law of induction=20= for vortices of the electric field (potential vortices):

Completely extended law of induction with B =3D u * H
rot E =3D - dB/dt - B/tau sub 2 =3D - u (dH/dt + h/tau sub 2)
and the well known law of Ampere (with D =3D e * E)"
rot H =3D dD/dt + D/tau sub 1 =3D e (dE/dt + E/tau sub 2)

Fundemntal Field Equation:

-c^2 rot rot E =3D d^2 E/dt^2 + (1/tau sub 1) * dE/dt + (1/tau sup 2) *=20= dE/dt + E/tau sub 1 tau sub 2 + eddy current + potantial vortex + 1/U.

Scalar Waves by Konstantine Meyl, Pg. 530 to 566., 2003 Indell"




























Baron Von Volsung, www.rhfweb.co= m\baron, Email: www.rhf= web.com\emailform.html=20
President Thomas D. Clark, Email: www.rhfweb.com\emailform.html,=20
Personal Web Page: www.rhfweb= .com\personal=20
New Age Production's Inc., www.= rhfweb.com\newage=20
Star Haven Community Services, at w= ww.rhfweb.com\sh.=20
Radiation Health Foundation Trust at = www.rhfweb.com=20

Making a difference one person at a time=20
Get informed. Inform others.=20
--part1_62.4fa72c8a.2f53df7e_boundary-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 27 20:56:45 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1S4uPgB015535; Sun, 27 Feb 2005 20:56:26 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1S4uMOx015509; Sun, 27 Feb 2005 20:56:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 20:56:22 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050228045618.006bbae8 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 04:56:18 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: A cause celebre? Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58126 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 05:18 pm 27-02-05 -0800, you wrote: > Frank, > > >> You want press attention? >> >> I'll give you press attention. >> >> Start a research program to develop a CF bomb with the >> avowed intention of saving America by getting there >> before the terrorists do. You will get all the press >> attention you can handle - and then some. Probably >> get quite a lot of financial support from crazy gun >> lobby billionaires too, I shouldn't wonder. > > Charles called the "incident" a meltdown. I'm not quite sure why he labeled > it as such. I interviewed Ashley as well, and also read Taubes' interview > of Ashley. They all match. I talked with Martin about this in as much > detail as he was willing and able to remember. There was particulate in the > air in the morning - but nothing was burning. The hole in the concrete > floor was 30cm wide by 10cm deep. Somebody want to tell me that the > concrete *melted*? I don't think so. > > Steve That is an extremely valuable confirmation of the facts, Steve. As an expert in the failure of concrete I can definitely say, that ain't no meltdown. ;-) I'm glad we've now got your independent testimony in the Vortex archives for all to read and reference. Frank From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 27 21:28:30 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1S5SItB027236; Sun, 27 Feb 2005 21:28:18 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1S5SBBV027190; Sun, 27 Feb 2005 21:28:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 21:28:11 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20050227212451.056211f0 mail.dlsi.net> X-Sender: steven%newenergytimes.com mail.dlsi.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 21:32:09 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: A cause celebre? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <-_Tj7C.A.woG.qvqICB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58127 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed, Just a thought .. it may be more strategic to posture DOE as acting more "ridiculously" rather than "unfairly." Steve From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 27 21:46:05 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1S5je3F003816; Sun, 27 Feb 2005 21:45:40 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1S5i1U1002731; Sun, 27 Feb 2005 21:44:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 21:44:01 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050228050050.006ce594 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 05:00:50 +0000 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Explosive Antimony on Platinum, Cold Fusion in 1855? Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58128 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >At 01:21 pm 27-02-05 -0600, Sparber wrote: > Is it possible that the Platinum-Antimony, Platinum-Hydride interface > set up conditions for Cold Fusion, that released 82 Kilojoule per > gram of Explosive Antimony in Gore's 1855 experiments? That's quite a thought, Fred. History has often shown, with hindsight, that there were clear precursors to paradigm shifting discoveries which at the time were just too mind blowing for people to take in. Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 28 02:42:42 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1SAgOLo017566; Mon, 28 Feb 2005 02:42:25 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1SAgL7O017545; Mon, 28 Feb 2005 02:42:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 02:42:21 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=Z25cd5O6971cPF0CVnSoOTQkq5USY+zOE8+SgpiQIf6AMWqSbLZ3uy1wckWOLu9Q; Message-ID: <410-22005212894144760 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Explosive Antimony on Platinum, Cold Fusion in 1855? Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 03:41:44 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9402f44d48563cac4d3b74c3d1565ad34f9350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.196 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58129 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Frank Grimer wrote > At 01:21 pm 27-02-05 -0600, Sparber wrote: > > Is it possible that the Platinum-Antimony, Platinum-Hydride interface > > set up conditions for Cold Fusion, that released 82 Kilojoule per > > gram of Explosive Antimony in Gore's 1855 experiments? > That's quite a thought, Fred. > History has often shown, with hindsight, that there were > clear precursors to paradigm shifting discoveries which > at the time were just too mind blowing for people to > take in. > Frank Grimer After going through about every possible exothermic chemical reaction that are orders of magnitude below what Gore reported, I would be surprised at any explanation other than CANR, Frank. http://www.lateralscience.co.uk/Fluorine/exant.html http://www.lateralscience.co.uk/Fluorine/Sb.html Gore (1855) found that if a current of electricity is passed through a solution of antimony trichloride in hydrochloric acid---using an antimony anode, and a platinum cathode---an amorphous powder of specific gravity of 5.78 is deposited on the cathode. The cathode has the appearance of a smooth polished graphite rod. The deposit appears to be solid solution of antimony trichloride in metastable alpha-antimony. If this deposit be rubbed or scratched, an explosion occurs The explosion is attended by the allotropic transformation of then metastable or alpha-form of antimony into the stable beta-form or the rhombohedral variety, at the same time the temperature rises to about 250 degrees C, and 19,600 calories of heat are evolved per gram of antimony. Clouds of antimony trichloride are given off at the same time. Hence the term Explosive Antimony is given to a solid solution( 4 to 12 percent ) of the trihalide in alpha-antimony." The heat of combustion of H2 + 1/2 O2 is 54,000 calories per mole (18 grams) , or 3.000 calories per gram The 19,600 calories per gram released by Explosive Antimony is over 6.5 times this. On initial application of current there should be a flash deposit of Hydrogen on the Platinum Cathode. After that, a mix of Antimony Chlorine and Hydrogen. The exotherm energies of Antimony Chloride or Oxide is less than 2.5 Kilojoule per gram. Way below the 82 Kilojoule per gram of Explosive Antimony that Gore reported in 1855. Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

Frank Grimer wrote
 
> At 01:21 pm 27-02-05 -0600, Sparber wrote:
 
> > Is it possible that the Platinum-Antimony, Platinum-Hydride interface
> > set up conditions for Cold Fusion, that released 82 Kilojoule per
> > gram of Explosive Antimony in Gore's 1855 experiments?
 
> That's quite a thought, Fred.
 
> History has often shown, with hindsight, that there were
> clear precursors to paradigm shifting discoveries which
> at the time were just too mind blowing for people to
> take in.
 
> Frank Grimer
 
After going through about every possible exothermic chemical reaction that are orders of magnitude below what Gore reported, I would be surprised at any explanation other than CANR, Frank.
 
 
 
 
Gore (1855) found that if a current of electricity is passed through a solution of antimony trichloride
in hydrochloric acid---using an antimony anode, and a platinum cathode---an amorphous powder
of specific gravity of 5.78 is deposited on the cathode. The cathode has the appearance of a smooth
polished graphite rod. The deposit appears to be solid solution of antimony trichloride in metastable alpha-antimony.
If this deposit be rubbed or scratched, an explosion occurs
 
The explosion is attended by the allotropic transformation of then metastable or alpha-form of
antimony into the stable beta-form or the rhombohedral variety, at the same time the temperature rises to
about 250 degrees C, and 19,600 calories of heat are evolved per gram of antimony.
 
Clouds of antimony trichloride are given off at the same time.
Hence the term Explosive Antimony is given to a solid solution( 4 to 12 percent )
of the trihalide in alpha-antimony."
 
The heat of combustion of H2 + 1/2 O2 is 54,000 calories per mole (18 grams) , or 3.000 calories per gram
 
The 19,600 calories per gram released by Explosive Antimony is over 6.5  times this.
 
On initial application of current there should be a flash deposit of Hydrogen on the
Platinum Cathode. After that, a mix of Antimony Chlorine and Hydrogen.
 
The exotherm energies of Antimony Chloride or Oxide is less than 2.5 Kilojoule per
gram.
 
Way below the 82 Kilojoule per gram of Explosive Antimony that Gore reported in
1855.
 
Frederick
 
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 28 03:05:33 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1SB5GLo025841; Mon, 28 Feb 2005 03:05:16 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1SB5DEY025814; Mon, 28 Feb 2005 03:05:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 03:05:13 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=CEoAxA+cclc9PFJosJyb7agl1RHC5YoHtywvaCUvzoqSaEfMnCfYcupWf8lpvoWh; Message-ID: <410-2200521281041550 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Explosive Antimony on Platinum, Cold Fusion in 1855? Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 04:04:15 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9405732214c9952cec50704d03e227ff1df350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.22 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58130 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII BTW. Don't discount the Deuterium (as HDO &D2O) in the water and as DCL in the HCL. Even though it wasn't discovered yet. :-) Frederick ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederick Sparber To: vortex-l Sent: 2/28/05 4:42:25 AM Subject: Re: Explosive Antimony on Platinum, Cold Fusion in 1855? Frank Grimer wrote > At 01:21 pm 27-02-05 -0600, Sparber wrote: > > Is it possible that the Platinum-Antimony, Platinum-Hydride interface > > set up conditions for Cold Fusion, that released 82 Kilojoule per > > gram of Explosive Antimony in Gore's 1855 experiments? > That's quite a thought, Fred. > History has often shown, with hindsight, that there were > clear precursors to paradigm shifting discoveries which > at the time were just too mind blowing for people to > take in. > Frank Grimer After going through about every possible exothermic chemical reaction that are orders of magnitude below what Gore reported, I would be surprised at any explanation other than CANR, Frank. http://www.lateralscience.co.uk/Fluorine/exant.html http://www.lateralscience.co.uk/Fluorine/Sb.html Gore (1855) found that if a current of electricity is passed through a solution of antimony trichloride in hydrochloric acid---using an antimony anode, and a platinum cathode---an amorphous powder of specific gravity of 5.78 is deposited on the cathode. The cathode has the appearance of a smooth polished graphite rod. The deposit appears to be solid solution of antimony trichloride in metastable alpha-antimony. If this deposit be rubbed or scratched, an explosion occurs The explosion is attended by the allotropic transformation of then metastable or alpha-form of antimony into the stable beta-form or the rhombohedral variety, at the same time the temperature rises to about 250 degrees C, and 19,600 calories of heat are evolved per gram of antimony. Clouds of antimony trichloride are given off at the same time. Hence the term Explosive Antimony is given to a solid solution( 4 to 12 percent ) of the trihalide in alpha-antimony." The heat of combustion of H2 + 1/2 O2 is 54,000 calories per mole (18 grams) , or 3.000 calories per gram The 19,600 calories per gram released by Explosive Antimony is over 6.5 times this. On initial application of current there should be a flash deposit of Hydrogen on the Platinum Cathode. After that, a mix of Antimony Chlorine and Hydrogen. The exotherm energies of Antimony Chloride or Oxide is less than 2.5 Kilojoule per gram. Way below the 82 Kilojoule per gram of Explosive Antimony that Gore reported in 1855. Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
BTW. Don't discount the Deuterium (as HDO &D2O) in the water and
as DCL in the HCL.
 
Even though it wasn't discovered yet.  :-)
 
Frederick
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 2/28/05 4:42:25 AM
Subject: Re: Explosive Antimony on Platinum, Cold Fusion in 1855?

Frank Grimer wrote
 
> At 01:21 pm 27-02-05 -0600, Sparber wrote:
 
> > Is it possible that the Platinum-Antimony, Platinum-Hydride interface
> > set up conditions for Cold Fusion, that released 82 Kilojoule per
> > gram of Explosive Antimony in Gore's 1855 experiments?
 
> That's quite a thought, Fred.
 
> History has often shown, with hindsight, that there were
> clear precursors to paradigm shifting discoveries which
> at the time were just too mind blowing for people to
> take in.
 
> Frank Grimer
 
After going through about every possible exothermic chemical reaction that are orders of magnitude below what Gore reported, I would be surprised at any explanation other than CANR, Frank.
 
 
 
 
Gore (1855) found that if a current of electricity is passed through a solution of antimony trichloride
in hydrochloric acid---using an antimony anode, and a platinum cathode---an amorphous powder
of specific gravity of 5.78 is deposited on the cathode. The cathode has the appearance of a smooth
polished graphite rod. The deposit appears to be solid solution of antimony trichloride in metastable alpha-antimony.
If this deposit be rubbed or scratched, an explosion occurs
 
The explosion is attended by the allotropic transformation of then metastable or alpha-form of
antimony into the stable beta-form or the rhombohedral variety, at the same time the temperature rises to
about 250 degrees C, and 19,600 calories of heat are evolved per gram of antimony.
 
Clouds of antimony trichloride are given off at the same time.
Hence the term Explosive Antimony is given to a solid solution( 4 to 12 percent )
of the trihalide in alpha-antimony."
 
The heat of combustion of H2 + 1/2 O2 is 54,000 calories per mole (18 grams) , or 3.000 calories per gram
 
The 19,600 calories per gram released by Explosive Antimony is over 6.5  times this.
 
On initial application of current there should be a flash deposit of Hydrogen on the
Platinum Cathode. After that, a mix of Antimony Chlorine and Hydrogen.
 
The exotherm energies of Antimony Chloride or Oxide is less than 2.5 Kilojoule per
gram.
 
Way below the 82 Kilojoule per gram of Explosive Antimony that Gore reported in
1855.
 
Frederick
 
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 28 06:02:24 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1SE29Lo002585; Mon, 28 Feb 2005 06:02:10 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1SE26VZ002573; Mon, 28 Feb 2005 06:02:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 06:02:06 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=I9ZnL5bs5uhz5UR4hhGtrdPINQw3e8aRQpKktfGA47PqBVGpT+TKkooctC62mjZl; Message-ID: <410-22005212813129230 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Quotes from Otto von Bismarck "Founder of the German Empire" Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 07:01:29 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940fc8acb36f506c6e7819cf4ff53dea963350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.120.184 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58131 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/o/otto_von_bismarck.html "To retain respect for sausages and laws, one must not watch them in the making." Otto von Bismarck I prefer turkey "spam". :-) Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

 
 
 
"To retain respect for sausages and laws, one must not watch them in the making."
Otto von Bismarck
 
I prefer turkey "spam".  :-)
 
Frederick
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 28 06:28:07 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1SERmLo014891; Mon, 28 Feb 2005 06:27:48 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1SERhPm014846; Mon, 28 Feb 2005 06:27:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 06:27:43 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050228092625.02b72b78 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 09:27:35 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Miles needs $80,000 per year Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_522843==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58132 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --=====================_522843==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Melvin Miles told me he needs about $80,000 for one year of research into cold fusion. This includes salary, equipment, and materials. - Jed --=====================_522843==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Melvin Miles told me he needs about $80,000 for one year of research into cold fusion. This includes salary, equipment, and materials.

- Jed

 --=====================_522843==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 28 06:29:22 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1SET5Lo015574; Mon, 28 Feb 2005 06:29:06 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1SET3Jw015551; Mon, 28 Feb 2005 06:29:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 06:29:03 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050228142856.006e65f0 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 14:28:56 +0000 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Explosive Antimony on Platinum, Cold Fusion in 1855? Resent-Message-ID: <40cH4B.A.2yD.tqyICB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58133 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 04:04 am 28-02-05 -0600, Sparber wrote: > BTW. Don't discount the Deuterium (as HDO &D2O) in the water and > as DCL in the HCL. > > Even though it wasn't discovered yet. :-) > > Frederick > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Frederick Sparber > To: vortex-l > Sent: 2/28/05 4:42:25 AM > Subject: Re: Explosive Antimony on Platinum, Cold Fusion in 1855? > > > Frank Grimer wrote > >> At 01:21 pm 27-02-05 -0600, Sparber wrote: > >>> Is it possible that the Platinum-Antimony, Platinum-Hydride interface >>> set up conditions for Cold Fusion, that released 82 Kilojoule per >>> gram of Explosive Antimony in Gore's 1855 experiments? >> That's quite a thought, Fred. >> >> History has often shown, with hindsight, that there were >> clear precursors to paradigm shifting discoveries which >> at the time were just too mind blowing for people to >> take in. >> >> Frank Grimer > After going through about every possible exothermic > chemical reaction that are orders of magnitude below > what Gore reported, I would be surprised at any > explanation other than CANR, Frank. > > http://www.lateralscience.co.uk/Fluorine/exant.html > > http://www.lateralscience.co.uk/Fluorine/Sb.html > > > Gore (1855) found that if a current of electricity is > passed through a solution of antimony trichloride > in hydrochloric acid---using an antimony anode, and a > platinum cathode---an amorphous powder of specific gravity > of 5.78 is deposited on the cathode. The cathode has > the appearance of a smooth polished graphite rod. The > deposit appears to be solid solution of antimony trichloride > in metastable alpha-antimony. > > If this deposit be rubbed or scratched, an explosion occurs > > The explosion is attended by the allotropic transformation > of then metastable or alpha-form of antimony into the stable > beta-form or the rhombohedral variety, at the same time the > temperature rises to about 250 degrees C, and 19,600 calories > of heat are evolved per gram of antimony. > > Clouds of antimony trichloride are given off at the same time. > Hence the term Explosive Antimony is given to a solid solution > (4 to 12 percent) of the trihalide in alpha-antimony." > > The heat of combustion of H2 + 1/2 O2 is 54,000 calories per > mole (18 grams), or 3.000 calories per gram. > > The 19,600 calories per gram released by Explosive Antimony > is over 6.5 times this. > > On initial application of current there should be a flash > deposit of Hydrogen on the Platinum Cathode. After that, a > mix of Antimony Chlorine and Hydrogen. > > The exotherm energies of Antimony Chloride or Oxide is less > than 2.5 Kilojoule per gram. > > Way below the 82 Kilojoule per gram of Explosive Antimony that > Gore reported in > 1855. > Thoroughly fascinated by all the speculations I googled both the above URL's. I noticed that the date in the first was:- "... prepared by G.Gore in 1858 ..." The second gives the same date. Now you've written 1855 both on your subject headers and in the body of your post. I presume that is because your finger twitches with excitement when it hits the numerical keyboard - Or is there some other reference which gives the date 1855. Eighteen-fifty-five is twice as long ago as the date of the International Critical Data tables I used to mine the water/water vapour power laws from the spoil heap. If the date is capable of becoming garbled in the meantime, then so are other factoids. Are the 1855s correct? Or are they typos? As the British Satirical magazine, "Private Eye" puts it, "I think we should be told." ;-) Cheers Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 28 06:58:03 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1SEvmLo031493; Mon, 28 Feb 2005 06:57:49 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1SEvjcK031449; Mon, 28 Feb 2005 06:57:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 06:57:45 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type; b=cL4Fuoq65+PXSy+lhOW7GF6TcNxdzfezNqmaSDJlWdDXlJgPsQH5n8F+9pzO1ATl; Message-ID: <410-22005212813577820 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Explosive Antimony on Platinum, Cold Fusion in 1855? Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 07:57:07 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94039517d54fbda21b37233a8f56d7e5350350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.74 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58134 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: It was 1858, Frank. Blame the error on frosted-over glasses and old age. :-) I'm also pondering if dipping the electrodes of the electrolysis cells in LN2 for a while might show ZPE-Pumping involved also. Frederick > [Original Message] > From: Grimer > To: > Date: 2/28/05 8:29:06 AM > Subject: Re: Explosive Antimony on Platinum, Cold Fusion in 1855? > > At 04:04 am 28-02-05 -0600, Sparber wrote: > > BTW. Don't discount the Deuterium (as HDO &D2O) in the water and > > as DCL in the HCL. > > > > Even though it wasn't discovered yet. :-) > > > > Frederick > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Frederick Sparber > > To: vortex-l > > Sent: 2/28/05 4:42:25 AM > > Subject: Re: Explosive Antimony on Platinum, Cold Fusion in 1855? > > > > > > Frank Grimer wrote > > > >> At 01:21 pm 27-02-05 -0600, Sparber wrote: > > > >>> Is it possible that the Platinum-Antimony, Platinum-Hydride interface > >>> set up conditions for Cold Fusion, that released 82 Kilojoule per > >>> gram of Explosive Antimony in Gore's 1855 experiments? > > > >> That's quite a thought, Fred. > >> > >> History has often shown, with hindsight, that there were > >> clear precursors to paradigm shifting discoveries which > >> at the time were just too mind blowing for people to > >> take in. > >> > >> Frank Grimer > > > > > > After going through about every possible exothermic > > chemical reaction that are orders of magnitude below > > what Gore reported, I would be surprised at any > > explanation other than CANR, Frank. > > > > http://www.lateralscience.co.uk/Fluorine/exant.html > > > > http://www.lateralscience.co.uk/Fluorine/Sb.html > > > > > > Gore (1855) found that if a current of electricity is > > passed through a solution of antimony trichloride > > in hydrochloric acid---using an antimony anode, and a > > platinum cathode---an amorphous powder of specific gravity > > of 5.78 is deposited on the cathode. The cathode has > > the appearance of a smooth polished graphite rod. The > > deposit appears to be solid solution of antimony trichloride > > in metastable alpha-antimony. > > > > If this deposit be rubbed or scratched, an explosion occurs > > > > The explosion is attended by the allotropic transformation > > of then metastable or alpha-form of antimony into the stable > > beta-form or the rhombohedral variety, at the same time the > > temperature rises to about 250 degrees C, and 19,600 calories > > of heat are evolved per gram of antimony. > > > > Clouds of antimony trichloride are given off at the same time. > > Hence the term Explosive Antimony is given to a solid solution > > (4 to 12 percent) of the trihalide in alpha-antimony." > > > > The heat of combustion of H2 + 1/2 O2 is 54,000 calories per > > mole (18 grams), or 3.000 calories per gram. > > > > The 19,600 calories per gram released by Explosive Antimony > > is over 6.5 times this. > > > > On initial application of current there should be a flash > > deposit of Hydrogen on the Platinum Cathode. After that, a > > mix of Antimony Chlorine and Hydrogen. > > > > The exotherm energies of Antimony Chloride or Oxide is less > > than 2.5 Kilojoule per gram. > > > > Way below the 82 Kilojoule per gram of Explosive Antimony that > > Gore reported in > > 1855. > > > > > Thoroughly fascinated by all the speculations I googled > both the above URL's. I noticed that the date in the > first was:- > > "... prepared by G.Gore in 1858 ..." > > The second gives the same date. > > Now you've written 1855 both on your subject headers and > in the body of your post. > > I presume that is because your finger twitches with > excitement when it hits the numerical keyboard - Or is > there some other reference which gives the date 1855. > > > Eighteen-fifty-five is twice as long ago as the date of the > International Critical Data tables I used to mine the > water/water vapour power laws from the spoil heap. > > If the date is capable of becoming garbled in the meantime, > then so are other factoids. > > Are the 1855s correct? Or are they typos? > > As the British Satirical magazine, "Private Eye" puts it, > > "I think we should be told." ;-) > > Cheers > > Frank Grimer > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 28 07:26:58 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1SFQNLo016214; Mon, 28 Feb 2005 07:26:23 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1SFQKaq016163; Mon, 28 Feb 2005 07:26:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 07:26:20 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <045701c51da9$bbb97820$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <2.2.32.20050228045618.006bbae8 pop.freeserve.net> Subject: Re: A cause celebre? Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 07:25:27 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58135 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Steve, Frank et al. Speaking of this "incident" i.e. > Charles called the "incident" a meltdown. I'm not quite sure why he labeled it as such..... The hole in the concrete floor was 30cm wide by 10cm deep. Somebody want to tell me that the concrete *melted*? I don't think so. >> That is an extremely valuable confirmation of the facts, Steve. As an expert in the failure of concrete I can definitely say, that ain't no meltdown. ;-) And also, remember the runaway incident of Vince Cockeram. It is too easy for the skeptics to call these incidents "anecdotal," because they are singularities that have not been reproduced, and were huge surprises even to the experimenters. They just were not supposed to happen. If one accepts that the accounts are true and accurate, of what has transpired, then that raises the level of evidence to a entirely different level above "anecdotal" IMHO. This is something that is so unusual in science, that the funders are at a total loss on how to proceed, in time of tight budgets due to unnecessary war. Personally, I have absolutely not doubt that the accounts are true and accurate accounts, so let's move on to the next step. What do we have here? To me, the best analogy is an ancient shipwreck. Let's say some dusty threadbare evidence has been found in a Madrid library about a treasure ship that went down five hundred years ago off the coast of Florida. A manifest of the contents is listed. OK this is somewhat anecdotal, right? Five hundred years clouds a lot of memories, and maybe the pirates got it first, or the manifest was faked, or maybe the captain absconded with the goods and called it a shipwreck, etc. etc. You can ignore it, which is what most people do, or you can try to do something about it. If you have $80,000 you can hire a small boat and a diver and search for a few years and probably turn up nothing. There is a lot of ocean out there. Like many visitors to Key West in thirty years ago, I met Mel Fisher in a bar (he made the rounds daily to all the bars) and was given the spiel on the Atocha. At the time, my thinking was more like Bob Park, and I thought this guy was nuts and wasting his time and the money or others. Fast forward, and we find Mel and his investors (and the great state of Florida) now several hundred million dollars wealthier, because he was able to overcome natural skepticism about second hand accounts that "appeared" reliable, and raise considerably more capital than other treasure hunters (it is addictive, I hear) in order to finance his dream. It paid off. The comparison here to cold fusion is that instead of several hundred million dollars found in the Atocha, finding the answer to either of the two" anecdotal" incidents, known and appreciated by the vortex crowd as accurate accounts, the payoff will be in the hundreds of billions of dollars...or is that an exaggeration? I think not. How much effort does that warrant? Certainly a quarter of the yearly hot fusion budget, no? Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 28 07:32:54 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1SFWMLo021563; Mon, 28 Feb 2005 07:32:23 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1SFWFXa021415; Mon, 28 Feb 2005 07:32:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 07:32:15 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 06:32:14 -0900 To: "vortex-l" From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Explosive Antimony on Platinum, Cold Fusion in 1855? Resent-Message-ID: <8_FbQ.A.VOF.9lzICB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58136 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 3:41 AM 2/28/5, Frederick Sparber wrote: >The explosion is attended by the allotropic transformation of then >metastable or alpha-form of >antimony into the stable beta-form or the rhombohedral variety, at the >same time the temperature rises to >about 250 degrees C, and 19,600 calories of heat are evolved per gram of >antimony. > >Clouds of antimony trichloride are given off at the same time. >Hence the term Explosive Antimony is given to a solid solution( 4 to 12 >percent ) >of the trihalide in alpha-antimony." > >The heat of combustion of H2 + 1/2 O2 is 54,000 calories per mole (18 >grams) , or 3.000 calories per gram > >The 19,600 calories per gram released by Explosive Antimony is over 6.5 >times this. Note - 19,600 cal/g of Sb is only 161 cal/mol. > >On initial application of current there should be a flash deposit of >Hydrogen on the >Platinum Cathode. After that, a mix of Antimony Chlorine and Hydrogen. > >The exotherm energies of Antimony Chloride or Oxide is less than 2.5 >Kilojoule per >gram. > >Way below the 82 Kilojoule per gram of Explosive Antimony that Gore reported in >1855. The 19,600 cal/g released by explosive antimony is only 161 cal/mol = 0.674 kJ/mol. Codeposited hydrogen may be in atomic form. Consider the reaction H + H -> H2 + (436 kJ/mol = 104,000 cal/mol). That's 218 kJ/mol of H. Considerable energy has to be subtracted from this for the ionic bond of adsorbed H2 though. Given H2 + 1/2 O2 is 54,000 calories per mole (18 grams), *if* the freed H2 is converted to water, that's 54,000 calories per mole of H2 freed. H2 is only 2 grams per mole, thus an additional 27,000 cal/mol of H, or 113 kJ/mol of H is obtained for that H which finds oxygen. Some oxygen may be available in the form of animony oxide or included H2O2. The energy of even less than 1 percent adsorbed hydrogen may account for a significan part of the 0.674 kJ/mol given off by explosive Sb. The values 113 kj/mol and 218 kJ/mol dwarf the 0.674 kJ/mol obtained from explosive antimony. The 0.674 kJ/mol is small enough it may just be primarily from change of metastable to stable state. Hopefully I got the numbers about right. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 28 07:43:35 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1SFh7Lo031580; Mon, 28 Feb 2005 07:43:08 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1SFgwlx031494; Mon, 28 Feb 2005 07:42:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 07:42:58 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=APGA1X7xfh8MIjlcbpPxvWEeq1Y1GWtMeaDoEroyQ87uRRuKS9uT7VN57U94vf7r7RnwGuRqLtMd00lfGAuxrTP7phCEEoNuD4uppg6OtV+8HeciGG63lOcCg7IOG7CJKgGTchrz3FkRcCDvX7bFtPCN//naar4vkSSX8oPDo9Y= ; Message-ID: <20050228154234.43368.qmail web51708.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 07:42:34 -0800 (PST) From: Terry Blanton Subject: Re: A cause celebre? To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <045701c51da9$bbb97820$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1156340817-1109605354=:41059" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58137 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-1156340817-1109605354=:41059 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Did F&P ever tell what was so special about their Palladium? These people know: http://www.matthey.com/ but they weren't talking either last time I heard. They add Antimony per Sparber's conjecture? Jones Beene wrote: How much effort does that warrant? --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more. --0-1156340817-1109605354=:41059 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Did F&P ever tell what was so special about their Palladium?  These people know:
 
 
but they weren't talking either last time I heard.  They add Antimony per Sparber's conjecture?


Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net> wrote:
How much effort does that warrant?

Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more. --0-1156340817-1109605354=:41059-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 28 08:20:56 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1SGKRLo023058; Mon, 28 Feb 2005 08:20:28 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1SGK7jo022748; Mon, 28 Feb 2005 08:20:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 08:20:07 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type; b=J/2/DbRacmFVXBp7PA2QY3VpRbRoceDB5w/5V/I1Twf02wW/hNaOTUQAf2LQrEwn; Message-ID: <410-220052128151923870 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Explosive Antimony on Platinum, Cold Fusion in 1858 Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 09:19:23 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940a6fe69359603a85a0ce22cf61f751b26350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.159.96 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58138 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Thread was: Explosive Antimony on Platinum, Cold Fusion in 1855. :-) Horace Heffner wrote > > Note - 19,600 cal/g of Sb is only 161 cal/mol. > A gram-mole of Sb is ~121.6 grams. That would make it 9.97 Megajoules/mole. The 19,600 cal/gram of Sb (not gram-mole of Sb) exotherm is cited in later chemistry texts which is where I found it before doing the web search: http://www.lateralscience.co.uk/Fluorine/Sb.html http://www.lateralscience.co.uk/Fluorine/exant.html > > Hopefully I got the numbers about right. > You might consider rechecking them. I doubt there would be any attention paid if the values were near what you calculated. :-) Frederick > > At 3:41 AM 2/28/5, Frederick Sparber wrote: > > >The explosion is attended by the allotropic transformation of then > >metastable or alpha-form of > >antimony into the stable beta-form or the rhombohedral variety, at the > >same time the temperature rises to > >about 250 degrees C, and 19,600 calories of heat are evolved per gram of > >antimony. > > > >Clouds of antimony trichloride are given off at the same time. > >Hence the term Explosive Antimony is given to a solid solution( 4 to 12 > >percent ) > >of the trihalide in alpha-antimony." > > > >The heat of combustion of H2 + 1/2 O2 is 54,000 calories per mole (18 > >grams) , or 3.000 calories per gram > > > >The 19,600 calories per gram released by Explosive Antimony is over 6.5 > >times this. > > > Note - 19,600 cal/g of Sb is only 161 cal/mol. > > > > > >On initial application of current there should be a flash deposit of > >Hydrogen on the > >Platinum Cathode. After that, a mix of Antimony Chlorine and Hydrogen. > > > >The exotherm energies of Antimony Chloride or Oxide is less than 2.5 > >Kilojoule per > >gram. > > > >Way below the 82 Kilojoule per gram of Explosive Antimony that Gore reported in > >1855. > > > > The 19,600 cal/g released by explosive antimony is only 161 cal/mol = 0.674 > kJ/mol. > > Codeposited hydrogen may be in atomic form. Consider the reaction H + H -> > H2 + (436 kJ/mol = 104,000 cal/mol). That's 218 kJ/mol of H. > Considerable energy has to be subtracted from this for the ionic bond of > adsorbed H2 though. > > Given H2 + 1/2 O2 is 54,000 calories per mole (18 grams), *if* the freed H2 > is converted to water, that's 54,000 calories per mole of H2 freed. H2 is > only 2 grams per mole, thus an additional 27,000 cal/mol of H, or 113 > kJ/mol of H is obtained for that H which finds oxygen. Some oxygen may be > available in the form of animony oxide or included H2O2. > > The energy of even less than 1 percent adsorbed hydrogen may account for a > significan part of the 0.674 kJ/mol given off by explosive Sb. The values > 113 kj/mol and 218 kJ/mol dwarf the 0.674 kJ/mol obtained from explosive > antimony. The 0.674 kJ/mol is small enough it may just be primarily from > change of metastable to stable state. > > Hopefully I got the numbers about right. > > Regards, > > Horace Heffner > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 28 08:45:22 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1SGihi8032504; Mon, 28 Feb 2005 08:44:43 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1SGidNM032476; Mon, 28 Feb 2005 08:44:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 08:44:39 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050228164436.0076289c pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 16:44:36 +0000 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: A cause celebre? Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58139 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 07:25 am 28-02-05 -0800, Jones wrote: > Steve, Frank et al. > > Speaking of this "incident" i.e. > >>> Charles called the "incident" a meltdown. I'm not quite >>> sure why he labeled it as such..... The hole in the concrete >>> floor was 30cm wide by 10cm deep. Somebody want to tell me >>> that the concrete *melted*? I don't think so. > >> That is an extremely valuable confirmation of the facts, >> Steve. As an expert in the failure of concrete I can >> definitely say, that ain't no meltdown. ;-) > > And also, remember the runaway incident of Vince Cockeram. > It is too easy for the skeptics to call these incidents > "anecdotal," because they are singularities that have not > been reproduced, and were huge surprises even to the > experimenters. They just were not supposed to happen. If one > accepts that the accounts are true and accurate, of what has > transpired, then that raises the level of evidence to a > entirely different level above "anecdotal" IMHO. Too bloody right, mate!!! > This is something that is so unusual in science, that > the funders are at a total loss on how to proceed, > in time of tight budgets due to unnecessary war. > > Personally, I have absolutely no doubt that the accounts > are true and accurate accounts, so let's move on to the next > step. What do we have here? > > To me, the best analogy is an ancient shipwreck. Yep. Blackbeard's Treasure - and we've got the map that everyone else thinks is a forgery - but we know damn well it ain't. In trader's parlance, we have the necessary "edge". (see ISBN 0-06-074064-7 page 16). > Let's say some dusty threadbare evidence has been found in a > Madrid library about a treasure ship that went down five > hundred years ago off the coast of Florida. A manifest of > the contents is listed. OK this is somewhat anecdotal, > right? Five hundred years clouds a lot of memories, and > maybe the pirates got it first, or the manifest was faked, > or maybe the captain absconded with the goods and called it > a shipwreck, etc. etc. > > You can ignore it, which is what most people do, or you can > try to do something about it. If you have $80,000 you can > hire a small boat and a diver and search for a few years and > probably turn up nothing. There is a lot of ocean out there. > > Like many visitors to Key West in thirty years ago, I met > Mel Fisher in a bar (he made the rounds daily to all the > bars) and was given the spiel on the Atocha. At the time, my > thinking was more like Bob Park, and I thought this guy was > nuts and wasting his time and the money or others. > > Fast forward, and we find Mel and his investors (and the > great state of Florida) now several hundred million dollars > wealthier, because he was able to overcome natural > skepticism about second hand accounts that "appeared" > reliable, and raise considerably more capital than other > treasure hunters (it is addictive, I hear) in order to > finance his dream. It paid off. > > The comparison here to cold fusion is that instead of > several hundred million dollars found in the Atocha, finding > the answer to either of the two" anecdotal" incidents, known > and appreciated by the vortex crowd as accurate accounts, > the payoff will be in the hundreds of billions of > dollars...or is that an exaggeration? I think not. > > How much effort does that warrant? Certainly a quarter of > the yearly hot fusion budget, no? > > Jones If you were practising as a barrister, Jones, and I was up before the beak, I'd certainly want you on my case. ;-) Cheers, Frank Where do I find out about "the runaway incident of Vince Cockeram." From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 28 09:13:02 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1SHCSi8012807; Mon, 28 Feb 2005 09:12:29 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1SHCNQ0012724; Mon, 28 Feb 2005 09:12:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 09:12:23 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4223516E.8090605 ix.netcom.com> Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 10:14:22 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Explosive Antimony on Platinum, Cold Fusion in 1855? References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58140 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace, I would like to inject a little chemistry here, because if the energy claimed is real, the claims are amazing. First, when SbCl3 reacts with water, it forms SbO+, H+ and Cl-. Upon electrolysis, the SbO+ deposits on the cathode where it is reduced to Sb metal by reacting with the hydrogen activity generated there. No Cl- is expected to be present in this deposit. Even if some SbCl2+ were to deposit, it would be quickly reduced to Sb metal by reaction with hydrogen. So, where does the claimed SbCl3 come from? If the claimed energy is actually 19600 cal/g, this is equal to 19600*121.76 = 2.38 x 10^6 cal/mole, which is too much to be real. So we have two anomalies, the presence of Cl and too much energy. Does anyone care to speculate that the Cl results from fission of Sb? Regards, Ed Horace Heffner wrote: > At 3:41 AM 2/28/5, Frederick Sparber wrote: > > >>The explosion is attended by the allotropic transformation of then >>metastable or alpha-form of >>antimony into the stable beta-form or the rhombohedral variety, at the >>same time the temperature rises to >>about 250 degrees C, and 19,600 calories of heat are evolved per gram of >>antimony. >> >>Clouds of antimony trichloride are given off at the same time. >>Hence the term Explosive Antimony is given to a solid solution( 4 to 12 >>percent ) >>of the trihalide in alpha-antimony." >> >>The heat of combustion of H2 + 1/2 O2 is 54,000 calories per mole (18 >>grams) , or 3.000 calories per gram >> >>The 19,600 calories per gram released by Explosive Antimony is over 6.5 >>times this. > > > > Note - 19,600 cal/g of Sb is only 161 cal/mol. > > > >>On initial application of current there should be a flash deposit of >>Hydrogen on the >>Platinum Cathode. After that, a mix of Antimony Chlorine and Hydrogen. >> >>The exotherm energies of Antimony Chloride or Oxide is less than 2.5 >>Kilojoule per >>gram. >> >>Way below the 82 Kilojoule per gram of Explosive Antimony that Gore reported in >>1855. > > > > > The 19,600 cal/g released by explosive antimony is only 161 cal/mol = 0.674 > kJ/mol. > > Codeposited hydrogen may be in atomic form. Consider the reaction H + H -> > H2 + (436 kJ/mol = 104,000 cal/mol). That's 218 kJ/mol of H. > Considerable energy has to be subtracted from this for the ionic bond of > adsorbed H2 though. > > Given H2 + 1/2 O2 is 54,000 calories per mole (18 grams), *if* the freed H2 > is converted to water, that's 54,000 calories per mole of H2 freed. H2 is > only 2 grams per mole, thus an additional 27,000 cal/mol of H, or 113 > kJ/mol of H is obtained for that H which finds oxygen. Some oxygen may be > available in the form of animony oxide or included H2O2. > > The energy of even less than 1 percent adsorbed hydrogen may account for a > significan part of the 0.674 kJ/mol given off by explosive Sb. The values > 113 kj/mol and 218 kJ/mol dwarf the 0.674 kJ/mol obtained from explosive > antimony. The 0.674 kJ/mol is small enough it may just be primarily from > change of metastable to stable state. > > Hopefully I got the numbers about right. > > Regards, > > Horace Heffner > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 28 09:22:54 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1SHMGi8017097; Mon, 28 Feb 2005 09:22:16 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1SHMBDV017048; Mon, 28 Feb 2005 09:22:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 09:22:11 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <049101c51db9$e9299960$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <20050228154234.43368.qmail web51708.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Is Palladium Antimonide Telluride your cause celebre? Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 09:21:13 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58141 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: From: Terry Blanton and prior post of Frederick Sparber > Did F&P ever tell what was so special about their Palladium? ANS: They probably did not have a clue, over and above what they were told by the supplier. Antimony could very well be the answer, as Fred suggests !! or at least part of it. Palladium Antimonide Telluride is apparently a commonplace ore for Pd extraction; and antimony has been long acknowledged to be in most bulk alloys: http://www.platinummetalsreview.com/dynamic/question/view/10469 They often list and lump trace elements together and do not break down the analysis. If there is 3% trace elements and 10 elements are listed, that does not mean that one of them cannot be 2.9%, and the other 9 the .1% ... to use an extreme example. One suspects that following the "incident" in question, greater pains would have been taken to eliminate antimony. Antimony is a known explosive for 150 years, and the liability insurer knows that. Without a doubt, this "incident" would have been very alarming to all suppliers of electrodes as they are not interested in any experiment, nor should they be, so much as they are concerned with *avoiding liability* should an explosion end up taking the life of a PhD professor or causing major damage. Can you imagine the kind of monetary judgment that a jury would return against the supplier of metal if they knowingly let an explosive material, even in small amounts, be used in their alloy - and it caused a death? Ans: Probably a lot more the $20 million verdict which MacDonald's got slapped with, for a superficial coffee burn. The death verdict would not be later reduced like the burn verdict, either. Repeat 1) Sb is a known explosive. 2) A large explosion occurred 3) Pd "can" and sometimes does contain trace Sb 4) You have liability insurance, and the insurer hears about the explosion 5) Sb is thereafter totally eliminated 6) There are no subsequent explosions Did I miss anything? other than 7) This is total conjecture on the part of a possibly misinformed observer Not to mention, the expected response... 8) They would never admit to any of this, even if all seven of the above were true; instead they would focus on #7 and hope that the incident is quickly forgotten. Ergo. It stands to reason that if trace amounts of Sb were immediately removed by all suppliers of Pd electrodes, following the "incident", and the liability trail was well-covered in order to avoid problems, should any older metal be used to cause another incident - then that could very well end up being why the situation has not occurred again. And part of the reason why OU electrodes are not as reliable as the could be. Obviously "something" is going on besides an Sb reaction, but that reaction could have been a part of the earlier success. As we stand now, the older metal never resurfaced as a problem, and all newer metal has no Sb as a trace element. BTW, does anyone know for sure that the suppliers, during this time period, did not repurchase or swap-out older Pd metal in exchange for new? They likely would not have told the purchaser why, but did this happen? As for the future. It certainly would be worth someone's effort.... being --extremely careful-- and taking every precaution, in light of the explosion potential, to plate out some few milligrams of Sb onto a CF cathode and then observe what happens (from a distance) in an electrolysis cell. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 28 09:28:41 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1SHS0i8020489; Mon, 28 Feb 2005 09:28:00 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1SHRqlw020380; Mon, 28 Feb 2005 09:27:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 09:27:52 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20050228093050.00b0f088 mail.dlsi.net> X-Sender: steven%newenergytimes.com mail.dlsi.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 09:32:09 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: A cause celebre? In-Reply-To: <045701c51da9$bbb97820$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> References: <2.2.32.20050228045618.006bbae8 pop.freeserve.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58142 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Good food for thought Jones. Then how about a cube of Pd ...out in the desert ... video cameras rolling ...seismologists given advance warning? Steve From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 28 09:41:13 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1SHemi8027760; Mon, 28 Feb 2005 09:40:48 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1SHeiqg027736; Mon, 28 Feb 2005 09:40:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 09:40:44 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <049f01c51dbc$84a9b9e0$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <4223516E.8090605@ix.netcom.com> Subject: Re: Explosive Antimony on Platinum, Cold Fusion in 1855? Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 09:39:55 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58143 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: Edmund Storms > If the claimed energy is actually 19600 cal/g, this is equal to > 19600*121.76 = 2.38 x 10^6 cal/mole, which is too much to be real. Real "chemical energy" you mean, without an Sb nuclear reaction ? It could not be a real chemical reaction involving valence electrons, for sure, but: 1) Maybe ballotechnic reactions (chemical reactions that occur on inner shell electrons). These kinds of reactions have been said by some to be real, and by others to be cold-war concoctions. 2) Maybe ZPE is involved, especially since this process does involve the cryogenic treatment of Sb, as Fred mentioned. 3) Maybe the chlorine supplies the hypothesized electronium triad (*c-) following which we have a electron-positron annihilation? Then there is the idea of Sb undergoing some kind of enhanced nuclear decay, perhaps following a ballotechnic reaction... Jones My bet is on the ZPE rearrangement of phase density (Casimir, beta-aether)... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 28 09:49:17 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1SHmwi8031197; Mon, 28 Feb 2005 09:48:58 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1SHmtVn031175; Mon, 28 Feb 2005 09:48:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 09:48:55 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <04a501c51dbd$a7363820$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <2.2.32.20050228045618.006bbae8 pop.freeserve.net> <5.2.0.9.2.20050228093050.00b0f088@mail.dlsi.net> Subject: Re: A cause celebre? Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 09:48:02 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58144 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Steve, > Good food for thought Jones. > > Then how about a cube of Pd ...out in the desert ... video cameras rolling > ...seismologists given advance warning? Make that a cube of Pd-Sb-Cl instead of Pd, some LN to "cryo-temper" the cube with (kind of like the pastis or Pernod ritual, Fred presiding) ... and then "Lights... Cameras... Action" oops... "Lights ... Cameras... Action...Duck-and-cover" Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 28 10:08:49 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1SI8Oi8007274; Mon, 28 Feb 2005 10:08:25 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1SI8DS3007213; Mon, 28 Feb 2005 10:08:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 10:08:13 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=VFDDRQbVVbleVsA2yx2w4yN9mdX+PiWoyKpixs7FFskiDpAMupy2n/PhbSJK9aOW; Message-ID: <410-2200521281777500 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Explosive Antimony on Platinum, Cold Fusion in 1855? Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 11:07:07 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94004d929eae49145fbb2ad5425fad8f2ca350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.117.30 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58145 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII I would be surprised if G. Gore's "Platinum" cathode used in 1858 was Palladium-free. Not to mention other impurities. http://www.webelements.com/webelements/elements/text/Pd/hist.html http://www.webelements.com/webelements/elements/text/Pd/hist.html Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

I would be surprised if G. Gore's "Platinum" cathode used in 1858 was
Palladium-free. Not to mention other impurities.
 
 
 
Frederick

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 28 10:28:48 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1SISRSO017069; Mon, 28 Feb 2005 10:28:27 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1SISNRD017033; Mon, 28 Feb 2005 10:28:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 10:28:23 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=JjK1GtHFJLSLdYMFnz3sD12WqgkSZGke4NbjzWRXkfBZe90Y1PG8sNxkLz0zhjlPzWO6WHmPm2quNDLi11xuWNb/asQu7tJncvewOf8tdinMtPVFOANd5kNwWzzQ397p/LEWyhcb3ge3VuaBJsK8OP2FaC3yHzA9cl8wNyR0IO0= ; Message-ID: <20050228182815.42723.qmail web51706.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 10:28:15 -0800 (PST) From: Terry Blanton Subject: PVs for a Nickel/kWhr? To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1085292703-1109615295=:42427" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58146 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-1085292703-1109615295=:42427 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii An interesting approach. Anyone tried their products? http://nanosolar.com/index.html --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more. --0-1085292703-1109615295=:42427 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
An interesting approach.  Anyone tried their products?
 

Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more. --0-1085292703-1109615295=:42427-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 28 10:38:11 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1SIbjSO020769; Mon, 28 Feb 2005 10:37:46 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1SIbe5c020732; Mon, 28 Feb 2005 10:37:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 10:37:40 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050228131909.02bf8d58 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 13:36:16 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: OFF TOPIC Traffic light cameras Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_15515515==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: <1CzSiD.A.zDF.yT2ICB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58147 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --=====================_15515515==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Red light and speed cameras are tremendously effective ways to reduce traffic violations, accidents and fatalities. From today's Washington Post editorial "Red Lights? Green Light:" "* In August 1999, the first month of the program, the city's first red-light intersection safety camera at New York Avenue and Fourth Street NW captured 7,598 red-light violations. By January 2005, violations had dropped 86 percent, to 1,063. * October 1999: East Capitol Street and Benning Road NE, 1,159 violations. January 2005: 172 violations, an 85 percent reduction. * July 2000: Wisconsin Avenue and Brandywine Street NW, 1,365 violations. January 2005: 156 violations, an 89 percent reduction. Last year the District recorded 45 traffic fatalities -- the lowest annual total in 18 years. Chief Ramsey noted that the number of fatalities caused by speeding has been cut in half in the four years that photo radar has been in operation, from 38 in 2001 to 17 in 2004." Many people of a libertarian or conservative bent have objected to these cameras, because they are a form of government surveillance and Big Brother-ism. I agree they are, but I support them anyway. As a frequent pedestrian I have almost been run over three times by people running red lights at high speed. (By "almost," I mean they came within inches.) Security cameras, traffic cameras and the security check at airports are bothersome, an invasion of privacy, inefficient, but absolutely essential. This is an example of irksome, lousy technology we do not like but we must have. In the book, in Chapter 17, I describe the ultimate future solution to automobile safety: eliminate the driver completely, with fully automated cars. People who enjoy driving cars manually will still be allowed to do it, of course, but only as a hobby, and not on public streets. In the book I suggest that we put aside a few highways as National Parks for auto buffs to drive on. I wrote: "[Although people do enjoy driving] . . . the highway system is not intended to give people psychological satisfaction, or a means to express themselves. It is a public transportation system, no different from an elevator. Automatic cars and underground roads would triple the average speed of travel and save 40,000 lives per year in the U.S. alone, so the vast majority of commuters would prefer them, even though they will make life more regulated and a little less colorful and exciting." - Jed --=====================_15515515==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Red light and speed cameras are tremendously effective ways to reduce traffic violations, accidents and fatalities. From today's Washington Post editorial "Red Lights? Green Light:"

"* In August 1999, the first month of the program, the city's first red-light intersection safety camera at New York Avenue and Fourth Street NW captured 7,598 red-light violations. By January 2005, violations had dropped 86 percent, to 1,063.

* October 1999: East Capitol Street and Benning Road NE, 1,159 violations. January 2005: 172 violations, an 85 percent reduction.

* July 2000: Wisconsin Avenue and Brandywine Street NW, 1,365 violations. January 2005: 156 violations, an 89 percent reduction.

Last year the District recorded 45 traffic fatalities -- the lowest annual total in 18 years. Chief Ramsey noted that the number of fatalities caused by speeding has been cut in half in the four years that photo radar has been in operation, from 38 in 2001 to 17 in 2004."

Many people of a libertarian or conservative bent have objected to these cameras, because they are a form of government surveillance and Big Brother-ism. I agree they are, but I support them anyway. As a frequent pedestrian I have almost been run over three times by people running red lights at high speed. (By "almost," I mean they came within inches.) Security cameras, traffic cameras and the security check at airports are bothersome, an invasion of privacy, inefficient, but absolutely essential. This is an example of irksome, lousy technology we do not like but we must have.

In the book, in Chapter 17, I describe the ultimate future solution to automobile safety: eliminate the driver completely, with fully automated cars. People who enjoy driving cars manually will still be allowed to do it, of course, but only as a hobby, and not on public streets. In the book I suggest that we put aside a few highways as National Parks for auto buffs to drive on. I wrote:

"[Although people do enjoy driving] . . . the highway system is not intended to give people psychological satisfaction, or a means to express themselves. It is a public transportation system, no different from an elevator. Automatic cars and underground roads would triple the average speed of travel and save 40,000 lives per year in the U.S. alone, so the vast majority of commuters would prefer them, even though they will make life more regulated and a little less colorful and exciting."

- Jed
--=====================_15515515==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 28 11:03:48 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1SJ3RSO032671; Mon, 28 Feb 2005 11:03:27 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1SJ3NHW032640; Mon, 28 Feb 2005 11:03:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 11:03:23 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Explosive Antimony on Platinum, Cold Fusion in 1855? Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 14:04:26 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <4223516E.8090605 ix.netcom.com> Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: <7QCB0C.A.69H.6r2ICB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58148 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Ed, In the case of fuming HCL, wouldn't you get substantial SbCl++ or SbCl2+? When this experiment was described to me, it was claimed that several days (weeks?) of electrolysis was required to achieve a substantial amount of material. I assume from this that voltage is kept low to prevent H formation at the cathode. I've never done this experiment, but it's certainly not something required the DOE, Navy, and 100K to do... If someone sends me an antimony anode I'd be happy to do the basic experiment ( sadly, I have only the oxide form in stock, although if you think I can get away with a carbon anode I could just dissolve the oxide in a little HCL and use that. I fear that too much water will be generated and the sorts of problems you lay out below would interfere with the plating of the allotrope). This badly ocr'd document claims that similar results can be obtained from the tri-iodide and the tri-bromide, with equally explosive results. http://36.1911encyclopedia.org/A/AN/ANTINOMIANS.htm So I think the anion may not play a role in the purported LENR effect. K. -----Original Message----- From: Edmund Storms [mailto:storms2 ix.netcom.com] Sent: Monday, February 28, 2005 12:14 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Explosive Antimony on Platinum, Cold Fusion in 1855? Horace, I would like to inject a little chemistry here, because if the energy claimed is real, the claims are amazing. First, when SbCl3 reacts with water, it forms SbO+, H+ and Cl-. Upon electrolysis, the SbO+ deposits on the cathode where it is reduced to Sb metal by reacting with the hydrogen activity generated there. No Cl- is expected to be present in this deposit. Even if some SbCl2+ were to deposit, it would be quickly reduced to Sb metal by reaction with hydrogen. So, where does the claimed SbCl3 come from? If the claimed energy is actually 19600 cal/g, this is equal to 19600*121.76 = 2.38 x 10^6 cal/mole, which is too much to be real. So we have two anomalies, the presence of Cl and too much energy. Does anyone care to speculate that the Cl results from fission of Sb? Regards, Ed Horace Heffner wrote: > At 3:41 AM 2/28/5, Frederick Sparber wrote: > > >>The explosion is attended by the allotropic transformation of then >>metastable or alpha-form of >>antimony into the stable beta-form or the rhombohedral variety, at the >>same time the temperature rises to >>about 250 degrees C, and 19,600 calories of heat are evolved per gram of >>antimony. >> >>Clouds of antimony trichloride are given off at the same time. >>Hence the term Explosive Antimony is given to a solid solution( 4 to 12 >>percent ) >>of the trihalide in alpha-antimony." >> >>The heat of combustion of H2 + 1/2 O2 is 54,000 calories per mole (18 >>grams) , or 3.000 calories per gram >> >>The 19,600 calories per gram released by Explosive Antimony is over 6.5 >>times this. > > > > Note - 19,600 cal/g of Sb is only 161 cal/mol. > > > >>On initial application of current there should be a flash deposit of >>Hydrogen on the >>Platinum Cathode. After that, a mix of Antimony Chlorine and Hydrogen. >> >>The exotherm energies of Antimony Chloride or Oxide is less than 2.5 >>Kilojoule per >>gram. >> >>Way below the 82 Kilojoule per gram of Explosive Antimony that Gore reported in >>1855. > > > > > The 19,600 cal/g released by explosive antimony is only 161 cal/mol = 0.674 > kJ/mol. > > Codeposited hydrogen may be in atomic form. Consider the reaction H + H -> > H2 + (436 kJ/mol = 104,000 cal/mol). That's 218 kJ/mol of H. > Considerable energy has to be subtracted from this for the ionic bond of > adsorbed H2 though. > > Given H2 + 1/2 O2 is 54,000 calories per mole (18 grams), *if* the freed H2 > is converted to water, that's 54,000 calories per mole of H2 freed. H2 is > only 2 grams per mole, thus an additional 27,000 cal/mol of H, or 113 > kJ/mol of H is obtained for that H which finds oxygen. Some oxygen may be > available in the form of animony oxide or included H2O2. > > The energy of even less than 1 percent adsorbed hydrogen may account for a > significan part of the 0.674 kJ/mol given off by explosive Sb. The values > 113 kj/mol and 218 kJ/mol dwarf the 0.674 kJ/mol obtained from explosive > antimony. The 0.674 kJ/mol is small enough it may just be primarily from > change of metastable to stable state. > > Hopefully I got the numbers about right. > > Regards, > > Horace Heffner > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 28 11:17:13 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1SJGoSO006284; Mon, 28 Feb 2005 11:16:54 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1SJGlU4006264; Mon, 28 Feb 2005 11:16:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 11:16:47 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002401c51dca$0789fc50$0100007f xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: Miles needs $ 80,000 per year Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 13:16:01 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0020_01C51D97.A6118380" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-99.2 required=4.0 tests=HTML_30_40,HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58149 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01C51D97.A6118380 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0021_01C51D97.A6118380" ------=_NextPart_001_0021_01C51D97.A6118380 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankJed, Ok , I have the name of the University and the amount. I need = to listen to what a few people in Houston think about your game plan for = LENR-CANR. Speaking of treasure maps. Jim Bowie made some real bucks selling " lost = goldmine maps" in San Antonio way back. He had a coupla Mexicans that = were " artists" at aging goatskin with coffee. Sold lotsa real estate = around town with " guaranteed " titles too. Cant say exactly how he = wound up on the wrong end of Santa Ana's gun barrel, but it surely must = have came as a shock. Maybe he offered to sell him the Alamo and Santa = Ana took offense at the price. Times haven't changed much in Texas .Santa Ana won the war but its = taken all these years for it to dawn on everyone we are part of Mexico = just like W says. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0021_01C51D97.A6118380 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Jed, Ok , I have the name of the University = and the=20 amount. I need to listen to what a few people in Houston think about = your game=20 plan for LENR-CANR.
 
Speaking of treasure maps. Jim Bowie made = some real=20 bucks selling " lost goldmine maps" in San Antonio way back. He had a = coupla=20 Mexicans that were " artists" at aging goatskin with coffee. Sold lotsa = real=20 estate around town with " guaranteed " titles too. Cant say exactly how = he wound=20 up on the wrong end of Santa Ana's gun barrel, but it surely must have = came as a=20 shock. Maybe he offered to sell him the Alamo and Santa Ana took offense = at the=20 price.
 Times haven't changed much in Texas = .Santa=20 Ana won the war but its taken all these years for it to dawn on everyone = we are=20 part of Mexico just like W says.
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_0021_01C51D97.A6118380-- ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01C51D97.A6118380 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <001f01c51dc9$f09fbe80$0100007f xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01C51D97.A6118380-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 28 11:33:26 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1SJX9SO013291; Mon, 28 Feb 2005 11:33:09 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1SJX73c013267; Mon, 28 Feb 2005 11:33:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 11:33:07 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000601c51dcc$e62f98a0$5e25e544 VINCE> From: "Vince Cockeram" To: References: <2.2.32.20050227174655.00b69898 pop.freeserve.net> <42220C3F.70605@ix.netcom.com> Subject: Re: A cause celebre? Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 11:37:11 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: <-kX6S.A.OPD.yH3ICB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58150 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Well, I don't know how much good it will do but here is a copy I sent to the DOE this morning. =============================================== To: US Department of Energy Subject: Your "review" of cold fusion. When will you folks wake up? Cold Fusion has the potential of solving our energy needs and you still refuse to acknowledge the many quality experiments that have been done. I feel that this unreasonable attitude amounts to treason against the United States of America. If there is just the smallest possibility that there is something to the cold fusion claims and you denied a fair hearing, a long term in a maximum security lockup is what you deserve. We (The United States of America) cannot maintain our leadership in the world of science without exploring the unknown. And BTW, please stop pouring more billions my tax dollars into the wasted effort of the Tokamaks et al. Fifty years is enough. Sincerely, Vincent Cockeram Las Vegas Nevada ===================== end ======================== Should I expect a visit from the MIB? Vince ----- Original Message ----- From: "Edmund Storms" To: Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2005 10:06 AM Subject: Re: A cause celebre? > Dear Frank, > I totally agree with you. The time for being nice has past. The DOE > has shown gross dishonesty and the energy situation is getting out of > hand. The "Manifesto" is just the start. With a little luck and enough > effort, we hope to get the public concerned. However, I have no > allusions about the difficulty. If the issue involved any subject other > than Cold Fusion, and perhaps UFOs, the press would be interested. > Unfortunately, so many other issues are being generated these days by > the US government that the press has difficulty keeping up even when it > wants to. Anyway, if you know anyone in the press who might take an > interest, please let me know. > > Regards, > Ed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 28 12:04:28 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1SK4ESO025049; Mon, 28 Feb 2005 12:04:14 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1SK4BAH025028; Mon, 28 Feb 2005 12:04:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 12:04:11 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 15:00:54 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: RUF / was OFF TOPIC Traffic light cameras In-reply-to: <6.2.0.14.2.20050228131909.02bf8d58 pop.mindspring.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_YN+uDTGJhSGR/g3eltu0/w)" User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58151 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --Boundary_(ID_YN+uDTGJhSGR/g3eltu0/w) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT This is of related interest. http://www.ruf.dk/ http://www.ruf.dk/system/p3.htm begin quote: The vehicles drive manually a few km on ordinary roads in order to get to the rail system. The driver programmes the ruf to know its destination and this information is transferred to the system when the vehicle gets near to the monorail. The system guides the vehicle to enter the guideway without waiting and at 30 km/h. From there on the driver can relax until he get close to his destination where he takes over control again and drives manually to his destination. The main part of the trip is automated and the system knows when to turn right or left and when to get off. The automated part is very safe and energy efficient. The travel speed is typically 120 km/h on average. Travel times are short and predictable. end quote Harry Jed Rothwell at jedrothwell mindspring.com wrote: In the book, in Chapter 17, I describe the ultimate future solution to automobile safety: eliminate the driver completely, with fully automated cars. People who enjoy driving cars manually will still be allowed to do it, of course, but only as a hobby, and not on public streets. In the book I suggest that we put aside a few highways as National Parks for auto buffs to drive on. I wrote: "[Although people do enjoy driving] . . . the highway system is not intended to give people psychological satisfaction, or a means to express themselves. It is a public transportation system, no different from an elevator. Automatic cars and underground roads would triple the average speed of travel and save 40,000 lives per year in the U.S. alone, so the vast majority of commuters would prefer them, even though they will make life more regulated and a little less colorful and exciting." - Jed --Boundary_(ID_YN+uDTGJhSGR/g3eltu0/w) Content-type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT RUF / was OFF TOPIC Traffic light cameras This is of related interest.

http://www.ruf.dk/
http://www.ruf.dk/system/p3.htm

begin quote: The vehicles drive manually a few km on ordinary roads in order to get to the rail system. The driver programmes the ruf to know its destination and this information is transferred to the system when the vehicle gets near to the monorail.

The system guides the vehicle to enter the guideway without waiting and at 30 km/h. From there on the driver can relax until he get close to his destination where he takes over control again and drives manually to his destination.

The main part of the trip is automated and the system knows when to turn right or left and when to get off. The automated part is very safe and energy efficient. The travel speed is typically 120 km/h on average. Travel times are short and predictable. end quote

Harry

Jed Rothwell at jedrothwell mindspring.com wrote:

In the book, in Chapter 17, I describe the ultimate future solution to automobile safety: eliminate the driver completely, with fully automated cars. People who enjoy driving cars manually will still be allowed to do it, of course, but only as a hobby, and not on public streets. In the book I suggest that we put aside a few highways as National Parks for auto buffs to drive on. I wrote:

"[Although people do enjoy driving] . . . the highway system is not intended to give people psychological satisfaction, or a means to express themselves. It is a public transportation system, no different from an elevator. Automatic cars and underground roads would triple the average speed of travel and save 40,000 lives per year in the U.S. alone, so the vast majority of commuters would prefer them, even though they will make life more regulated and a little less colorful and exciting."

- Jed


--Boundary_(ID_YN+uDTGJhSGR/g3eltu0/w)-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 28 12:13:22 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1SKD7SO028834; Mon, 28 Feb 2005 12:13:08 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1SKCx0I028762; Mon, 28 Feb 2005 12:12:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 12:12:59 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 11:12:59 -0900 To: fjsparber earthlink.net, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Explosive Antimony on Platinum, Cold Fusion in 1858 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58152 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 9:19 AM 2/28/5, Frederick Sparber wrote: > Thread was: Explosive Antimony on Platinum, Cold Fusion in 1855. :-) > >Horace Heffner wrote >> >> Note - 19,600 cal/g of Sb is only 161 cal/mol. >> >A gram-mole of Sb is ~121.6 grams. That would make it 9.97 Megajoules/mole. > [snip] >> Hopefully I got the numbers about right. >> >You might consider rechecking them. I doubt there would be any attention >paid if >the values were near what you calculated. :-) Right you are! I thought that looked funny. Ran it through the calculator twice. Just another example that precision does not count when you have systematic error. Nothing like dividing when you should multiply. I now get 9.979 MJ/mol. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 28 12:35:39 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1SKZESO004523; Mon, 28 Feb 2005 12:35:14 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1SKZ9UY004470; Mon, 28 Feb 2005 12:35:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 12:35:09 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 11:35:22 -0900 To: From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: RE: Explosive Antimony on Platinum, Cold Fusion in 1855? Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58153 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 2:04 PM 2/28/5, Keith Nagel wrote: >I've never done this experiment, but it's certainly not >something required the DOE, Navy, and 100K to do... If >someone sends me an antimony anode I'd be happy to do >the basic experiment ( sadly, I have only the oxide form >in stock, although if you think I can get away with a >carbon anode I could just dissolve the oxide in a little >HCL and use that. I fear that too much water will be >generated and the sorts of problems you lay out below >would interfere with the plating of the allotrope). Why not use a Pd (or maybe Ni) anode along with the antimony dissolved in HCL to do the codeposition? This *might* avoid the otherwise inevitable explosion and permit operation continuous enough to do calorimtry. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 28 12:53:44 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1SKrQSO012217; Mon, 28 Feb 2005 12:53:26 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1SKrLCJ012187; Mon, 28 Feb 2005 12:53:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 12:53:21 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 15:50:12 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: a cause celebre? In-reply-to: <002801c51d1a$63407110$8a017841 xptower> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_0Pm+ta0j7ySIPAKkBd/UaQ)" User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: <9gyiy.A.Q-C.AT4ICB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58154 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --Boundary_(ID_0Pm+ta0j7ySIPAKkBd/UaQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Toast? no I don't think so. The Russians slapped Amercians in the face by putting a satellite and a man in orbit first. Harry RC Macaulay at walhalla cvtv.net wrote: Short but to the point.. Storms put it in context... If China get CF before we do, we are toast. Of the alternates suggested.. jealousy, vanity,lust and.. the best motivation is "Greed" Suggestion,, the University may be challenged to match funds pledged by private business interests for the advancement of science. The pledges may be conditioned by stipulations including the specific research and the researcher. Nothing gets the attention of a University more than an offer of partial funding. They simply begin looking for a way to make things work out rather than look for ways to say no! Richard --Boundary_(ID_0Pm+ta0j7ySIPAKkBd/UaQ) Content-type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Re: a cause celebre?
Toast? no I don't think so.

The Russians slapped Amercians in the face by putting a satellite and a man in orbit first.


Harry

RC Macaulay at walhalla cvtv.net wrote:

Short but to the point.. Storms put it in context... If China get CF before we do, we are toast.
Of the alternates suggested.. jealousy, vanity,lust and.. the best motivation is "Greed"
Suggestion,, the University may be challenged to match funds pledged by private business interests for the advancement of science. The pledges may be conditioned by stipulations including the specific research and the researcher. Nothing gets the attention of a University more than an offer of partial funding. They simply begin looking for a way to make things work out rather than look for ways to say no!
Richard




--Boundary_(ID_0Pm+ta0j7ySIPAKkBd/UaQ)-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 28 12:57:15 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1SKumSO014115; Mon, 28 Feb 2005 12:56:49 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1SKuic6014050; Mon, 28 Feb 2005 12:56:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 12:56:44 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050228154832.02b79f80 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 15:56:28 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: A cause celebre? In-Reply-To: <000601c51dcc$e62f98a0$5e25e544 VINCE> References: <2.2.32.20050227174655.00b69898 pop.freeserve.net> <42220C3F.70605 ix.netcom.com> <000601c51dcc$e62f98a0$5e25e544 VINCE> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58155 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Vince Cockeram wrote: >Well, I don't know how much good it will do but here is a copy I sent >to the DOE this morning. I think it would be more effective to contact newspapers, bloggers and other people in the media, rather than contacting the DoE directly. I was going to mention here that a Google search for "James Horwitz Basic Energy Sciences" instantly reveals Dr. Horowitz's address, telephone number and so on, but it would not be fair to pick on the poor man in person, so I shall refrain from saying anything about that. (Seriously, let's make this a larger media campaign, not a vendetta.) - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 28 13:24:38 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1SLMpSO027650; Mon, 28 Feb 2005 13:24:11 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1SLMmnU027620; Mon, 28 Feb 2005 13:22:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 13:22:48 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050228155759.02b8c148 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 16:21:05 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: a cause celebre? In-Reply-To: References: <002801c51d1a$63407110$8a017841 xptower> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_25349265==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: <-5gmi.A.gvG.nu4ICB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58156 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_25349265==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Harry Veeder wrote: >Toast? no I don't think so. > >The Russians slapped Amercians in the face by putting a satellite and a >man in orbit first. Good point. People wishing to play up this angle of the story -- in a message to someone in the media, for example -- should mention that cold fusion was rated one of the top 10 basic science breakthroughs of 2004 by the Nikkei Shimbun. The other day I describe how researchers like Mizuno and Iwamura are "hanging on by their fingernails" in Japan. That is true, as far as I know, but on the other hand they do have some pretty good hopes and some substantial backing. Perhaps I exaggerated how one-sided the fight is. Iwamura has officially been allocated "beam time" at the Spring-8 facility starting in the upcoming fiscal year (which begins in April). He reports that he is also collaborating with: "RIKEN, JASRI, University of Tokyo, Tokyo Institute of Technology and University of Shizuoka, in addition to University of Osaka, INFN-Frascati, University of Tohoku." If an American CF researcher had that kind of support he would think he had died and gone to heaven. I do not think it is likely that any nation will get far ahead of the US in cold fusion before we notice what is happening. I cannot imagine Toyota would surprise us with a market ready commercial cold fusion powered automobile. The development efforts would probably be no secret. They would be reported in trade magazines. Presumably, US industry would react even if the DoE did not. But who knows? After all, Toyota and Honda were openly developing hybrid automobiles for about 10 years, and playing up the public relations aspect of this research at every opportunity, while US manufacturers did absolutely *nothing* in response. I assume the situation would resemble our rivalry with Russia in rockets in the early 60s. It turned out they were not really so far ahead after all. Serious rivalry for commercially practical space ventures did not begin until the 80s when the Europeans began launching satellites cheaper than the US. Still, if China or Japan were to get one or two years ahead of the US in basic research on cold fusion, it might eventually translate into a large market share, as well as what you might call "leverage." This means the power to call the shots, and decide priorities such as which technologies are developed first. They would be in a position to dictate which US companies would be allowed to participate as junior partners, and how much of the market these junior partners would be allowed. You can play favorites and exploit other people's rivalry, the way a company such as Dell might play off Intel versus AMD. For a long time US lead in basic research and technology such as transistors, hard disks, telephony and so on. That did not mean that our rivals never developed these technologies, but an early lead in basic research did translate into a big market share, the ability to shape the market, to lord over our rivals, and many other advantages. - Jed --=====================_25349265==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Harry Veeder wrote:

Toast? no I don't think so.

The Russians slapped Amercians in the face by putting a satellite and a man in orbit first.

Good point.

People wishing to play up this angle of the story -- in a message to someone in the media, for example -- should mention that cold fusion was rated one of the top 10 basic science breakthroughs of 2004 by the Nikkei Shimbun. The other day I describe how researchers like Mizuno and Iwamura are "hanging on by their fingernails" in Japan. That is true, as far as I know, but on the other hand they do have some pretty good hopes and some substantial backing. Perhaps I exaggerated how one-sided the fight is. Iwamura has officially been allocated "beam time" at the Spring-8 facility starting in the upcoming fiscal year (which begins in April). He reports that he is also collaborating with: "RIKEN, JASRI, University of Tokyo, Tokyo Institute of Technology and University of Shizuoka, in addition to University of Osaka, INFN-Frascati, University of Tohoku." If an American CF researcher had that kind of support he would think he had died and gone to heaven.

I do not think it is likely that any nation will get far ahead of the US in cold fusion before we notice what is happening. I cannot imagine Toyota would surprise us with a market ready commercial cold fusion powered automobile. The development efforts would probably be no secret. They would be reported in trade magazines. Presumably, US industry would react even if the DoE did not. But who knows? After all, Toyota and Honda were openly developing hybrid automobiles for about 10 years, and playing up the public relations aspect of this research at every opportunity, while US manufacturers did absolutely *nothing* in response.

I assume the situation would resemble our rivalry with Russia in rockets in the early 60s. It turned out they were not really so far ahead after all. Serious rivalry for commercially practical space ventures did not begin until the 80s when the Europeans began launching satellites cheaper than the US. Still, if China or Japan were to get one or two years ahead of the US in basic research on cold fusion, it might eventually translate into a large market share, as well as what you might call "leverage." This means the power to call the shots, and decide priorities such as which technologies are developed first. They would be in a position to dictate which US companies would be allowed to participate as junior partners, and how much of the market these junior partners would be allowed. You can play favorites and exploit other people's rivalry, the way a company such as Dell might play off Intel versus AMD. For a long time US lead in basic research and technology such as transistors, hard disks, telephony and so on. That did not mean that our rivals never developed these technologies, but an early lead in basic research did translate into a big market share, the ability to shape the market, to lord over our rivals, and many other advantages.

- Jed
 --=====================_25349265==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 28 13:35:08 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1SLXQSO000362; Mon, 28 Feb 2005 13:34:46 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1SLXMT2000322; Mon, 28 Feb 2005 13:33:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 13:33:22 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C51DDC.E9F875D0" Subject: Correa, etc. Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 15:31:50 -0600 Message-ID: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C5042EF455 CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Correa, etc. Thread-Index: AcUd3N4Mv9oQBUpHRVK6W2LbuXa+dg== From: "Zell, Chris" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Feb 2005 21:31:51.0110 (UTC) FILETIME=[EA50C660:01C51DDC] Resent-Message-ID: <_9Ryi.A.9E.g44ICB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58157 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C51DDC.E9F875D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Has anybody replicated any of Correa's PAGD overunity claims? I got a vacuum pump and other gear in hopes of building something that apparently nobody is pursuing. (???) =20 On a separate note, I just got done reading "Confessions of an Economic Hitman". It is an astounding book. I have little doubt that anyone who stands in the way of our oil based economic order could be killed. If you have serious free energy findings, please be careful. You could end up like Mallove , whatever his flaws. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C51DDC.E9F875D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
       &nbs= p;         =20 Has anybody replicated any of Correa's PAGD overunity claims?  I = got a=20 vacuum pump and other gear in hopes of building = something
       &nbs= p;         =20 that apparently nobody is pursuing. (???)
 
       &nbs= p;         =20 On a separate note,  I just got done reading "Confessions of an = Economic=20 Hitman". It is an astounding book.
       &nbs= p;         =20 I have little doubt that anyone who stands in the way of our oil based = economic=20 order could be killed.  If you have serious
       &nbs= p;         =20 free energy findings, please be careful.  You could end up like = Mallove ,=20 whatever his flaws.
------_=_NextPart_001_01C51DDC.E9F875D0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 28 13:51:55 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1SLoISO008067; Mon, 28 Feb 2005 13:51:38 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1SLoCZI008015; Mon, 28 Feb 2005 13:50:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 13:50:12 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20050228134558.05627db0 mail.dlsi.net> X-Sender: steven%newenergytimes.com mail.dlsi.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 13:53:16 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: RUF / was OFF TOPIC Traffic light cameras In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050228131909.02bf8d58 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58158 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Harry, Yeah - solves, what the call in the telecom industry, the problem of "the last mile." The snow skiing industry solved this problem with the high-speed quad chairlift, it uses a low-speed cable for entry and exit and then automatically transfers to a high-speed cable for the main haul. Steve From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 28 14:34:23 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1SMWfSO027501; Mon, 28 Feb 2005 14:34:02 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j1SMWe1D027473; Mon, 28 Feb 2005 14:32:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 14:32:40 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050228223119.006b1c20 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 22:31:19 +0000 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Explosive Antimony on Platinum, Cold Fusion in 1858 Resent-Message-ID: <49hAvB.A.KtG.Hw5ICB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58159 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:12 am 28-02-05 -0900, you wrote: >At 9:19 AM 2/28/5, Frederick Sparber wrote: >> Thread was: Explosive Antimony on Platinum, Cold Fusion in 1855. :-) >> >>Horace Heffner wrote >>> >>> Note - 19,600 cal/g of Sb is only 161 cal/mol. >>> >>A gram-mole of Sb is ~121.6 grams. That would make it 9.97 Megajoules/mole. >> >[snip] >>> Hopefully I got the numbers about right. >>> >>You might consider rechecking them. I doubt there would be any attention >>paid if >>the values were near what you calculated. :-) > > >Right you are! I thought that looked funny. Ran it through the calculator >twice. Just another example that precision does not count when you have >systematic error. Nothing like dividing when you should multiply. I now >get 9.979 MJ/mol. > >Regards, > >Horace Heffner Phew! I'm glad you two sorted that one out satisfactorily. I was beginning to wonder who to believe in view of Fred's frosted spec's. ;-) Cheers Frank From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 28 16:36:51 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j210Z6SO023023; Mon, 28 Feb 2005 16:36:26 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j210Yw17022946; Mon, 28 Feb 2005 16:34:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 16:34:58 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <055d01c51df6$2fedc880$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: Subject: Another name for Explosive Antimony Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 16:32:44 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58160 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Has something akin to Steve's proposed "Mojave blast" already happened? Less than three years ago in 2002, on the second anniversary of the USS Cole bombing, a nightclub on the tourist island of Bali was shaken by an enormous blast of unusual intensity that killed at least 202 people, mostly Aussies and tourists. This was no bamboo juice joint. Reinforced concrete was shredded in tensile failure, including the rebars. Confessions extracted under torture indicated that only 100 pounds of explosive was used. Traces of C4 have been found: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/2329189.stm If there are any other trace elements of interest, they do not seem to have appeared in the legitimate press accounts. And now, as Paul Harvey used to say, "the rest of the story" but CAVEAT this is conspiracy theory stuff just dug up in a goggle search for antimony explosiveness. One should retain substantial doubt that any of these reports are true. Although there was enormous damage at Bali, the question remains for those on the pale- what type bomb was it? The pictures which can be seen on the net of the mushroom-like Bali "micro nuke cloud" hints at a non-chemical explosion. There was no radioactivity. One thing seems to be certain (to conspiracy theorists) from the pictures and information available - 100 pounds of C-4 was not enough to cause the damage seen. Many of them claim to have used C-4 in 'Nam etc., and claim it cannot shred rebars like that (but that does not seem plausible in light of the huge hole on the Cole? Or was that one a High-tech bomb too? Getting a little preposterous, isn't it, when you have to invent a new lie to back up an old one. Understandable, though. This may be what a few conspiracy nuts consider their 15 seconds of fame, and they want to milk it for all its worth. The C-4 is said by these characters (unsubstantiated of course) to be of Israeli manufacture, and South Africa and Israel have shared R&D on arms going back decades. There are rumors that the device was stolen from Capetown and secreted away on an ore freighter traced to a Jakarta mining company. Who knows? One cannot doubt that some of the damage seems worse than the Oklahoma City truck bomb, which had 4,800 pounds of ammonium nitrate & diesel but that was a "low-explosive." Big difference. The shock wave is the difference - the dynamics of which has been hinted on vortex as the difference between normal acceleration and "jerk". Here is what a right wing group is claiming. For fear of the MIB, I do not want to even mention the name of it, but a prime ingredient is antimony. Most experts claim it is nonsense. Some claim South Africa invented it in the pre-Mandela years, and the later government hasn't been as keen to keep it secure as it should have been. http://www.christian-patriots.us/RedMercuryBomb.html However, let me say that despite there being antimony mines in Indonesia, and the link of those to customers in the S. Africa's ammunitions industry being slightly plausible, I am largely unconvinced that these terrorists were so sophisticated, as the conspiracy-nuts make them out to be. However... as they say on the streets of Capetown, " money talks," ... but one could add, "yet has few unselfish listeners." Jones One of my favorite bumper sticker reads, "Money Talks, but mine only says adios...." From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 28 17:46:00 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j211iG2E024543; Mon, 28 Feb 2005 17:45:37 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j211i6WC024472; Mon, 28 Feb 2005 17:44:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 17:44:06 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Explosive Antimony on Platinum, Cold Fusion in 1855? Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 20:43:54 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58161 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace writes: >Why not use a Pd (or maybe Ni) anode along with the antimony dissolved in >HCL to do the codeposition? This *might* avoid the otherwise inevitable >explosion and permit operation continuous enough to do calorimtry. I'd rather use Pd and Sb salts and a carbon electrode; it's hard enough to control the relative composition without an anode adding more of one kind of metal. Besides, I just want to measure the voltage/current curve for the Sb/HCl system and the mass change of the cathode; with that info we can make an informed guess on the input energy. Doing good calorimetry would take someone parting with some coin, but I'll do the VI curves for the antimony rod. K. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 28 20:12:26 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j214Ali9000999; Mon, 28 Feb 2005 20:12:07 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j214AcND000911; Mon, 28 Feb 2005 20:10:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 20:10:38 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Is Palladium Antimonide Telluride your cause celebre? Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 15:09:08 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <20050228154234.43368.qmail web51708.mail.yahoo.com> <049101c51db9$e9299960$d0bcfea9@jonesb9pacbell> In-Reply-To: <049101c51db9$e9299960$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j2149Di9000363 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58162 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jones Beene's message of Mon, 28 Feb 2005 09:21:13 -0800: Hi, [snip] >being --extremely careful-- and taking every precaution, in >light of the explosion potential, to plate out some few >milligrams of Sb onto a CF cathode and then observe what >happens (from a distance) in an electrolysis cell. [snip] A couple of years back, when I was talking about rhombohedral and triclinic crystal structures on Vortex, Sb was one of the elements that drew my attention. Perhaps I was closer to the truth than I later came to believe. :) Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 28 22:23:20 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j216Lai9029986; Mon, 28 Feb 2005 22:22:56 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j216LXNR029962; Mon, 28 Feb 2005 22:21:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 22:21:33 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Explosive Antimony on Platinum, Cold Fusion in 1855? Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 17:20:03 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <5u0821lrf7kudk7ndtdo2naahsckqv4c47 4ax.com> References: <4223516E.8090605@ix.netcom.com> <049f01c51dbc$84a9b9e0$d0bcfea9@jonesb9pacbell> In-Reply-To: <049f01c51dbc$84a9b9e0$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j216K8i9029379 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58163 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jones Beene's message of Mon, 28 Feb 2005 09:39:55 -0800: Hi, [snip] > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Edmund Storms > >> If the claimed energy is actually 19600 cal/g, this is >equal to >> 19600*121.76 = 2.38 x 10^6 cal/mole, which is too much to >be real. It is about 103 eV / atom of Sb, which is indeed much more than one would get from any normal chemical reaction, but lies quite neatly in the "Mills ball park". [snip] >1) Maybe ballotechnic reactions (chemical reactions that >occur on inner shell electrons). This would be in the Mills ball park. [snip] >Then there is the idea of Sb undergoing some kind of >enhanced nuclear decay, perhaps following a ballotechnic >reaction... No beta decay (including double), electron capture or alpha decay reactions are exothermic, starting from either of the stable Sb isotopes, and all the unstable isotopes have short half lives, so don't occur in nature. [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 28 23:07:58 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2176Li9014749; Mon, 28 Feb 2005 23:07:42 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2176F4a014697; Mon, 28 Feb 2005 23:06:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 23:06:15 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l Subject: Re: Explosive Antimony on Platinum, Cold Fusion in 1855? Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 18:04:47 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <410-22005212894144760 earthlink.net> In-Reply-To: <410-22005212894144760 earthlink.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j2174qi9013886 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58164 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Frederick Sparber's message of Mon, 28 Feb 2005 03:41:44 -0600: Hi, [snip] >Way below the 82 Kilojoule per gram of Explosive Antimony that Gore reported in >1855. [snip] This would actually make a lot more sense, if someone made a mistake somewhere along the way, and it were 82 kJ/mol, rather than per gram. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 28 23:34:52 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j217XBi9024955; Mon, 28 Feb 2005 23:34:32 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j217X81o024930; Mon, 28 Feb 2005 23:33:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 23:33:08 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 22:32:02 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Explosive Antimony on Platinum, Cold Fusion in 1855? Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58165 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 6:04 PM 3/1/5, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >In reply to Frederick Sparber's message of Mon, 28 Feb 2005 >03:41:44 -0600: >Hi, >[snip] >>Way below the 82 Kilojoule per gram of Explosive Antimony that Gore >>reported in >>1855. >[snip] >This would actually make a lot more sense, if someone made a >mistake somewhere along the way, and it were 82 kJ/mol, rather >than per gram. Or even 19,600 cal/mol. Regards, Horace Heffner