From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 1 00:10:50 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j318AhQH011623; Fri, 1 Apr 2005 00:10:43 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j318AeC2011606; Fri, 1 Apr 2005 00:10:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 00:10:40 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 23:11:57 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: vortex mystery Resent-Message-ID: <91HAvB.A.S1C._HQTCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58837 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I should also note that the final equilibrium is given by: h = (w^2/2g) x R^2 - 2g/( w^2 x (R1)^2) where w is the final angular velocity of the water and tank, R1 is the drain radius, and R is a given radius, *provided* there is enough water in the tank initially to fill the volume under that surface. If not then the radius R1 is not the radius of the drain hole, but is a larger radius, and in that case, assuming the tank is rotating at w, no water can go down the drain at all. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 1 00:32:53 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j318WfQH020705; Fri, 1 Apr 2005 00:32:45 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j318WdOD020684; Fri, 1 Apr 2005 00:32:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 00:32:39 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 23:33:55 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: vortex mystery Resent-Message-ID: <6uKCm.A.9CF.ncQTCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58838 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 4:55 PM 4/1/5, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >In short, is h the distance up from the bottom of the tank, or the >distance down from the surface? The variable h is the distance up from the bottom of the tank in the equations I provided. However, I should note that the equation from Feynman's *Lectures on Physics*, Vol II, 40-10 ff, namely: h = k/R^2 + h0 takes h in the downward direction. However, Feynman's equation and derivtion are well defined in the reference. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 1 04:47:49 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j31CldqK005944; Fri, 1 Apr 2005 04:47:40 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j31ClWbV005907; Fri, 1 Apr 2005 04:47:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 04:47:32 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2005 20:50:28 +0800 From: FHLew Subject: Re: vortex mystery In-reply-to: To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <424D4394.9010405 tm.net.my> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_C7e3xu4d4xfjseDUOO//0Q)" X-Accept-Language: en-us, en User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Virus-Scanned: by Spam Firewall Outbound at tm.net.my References: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58839 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_C7e3xu4d4xfjseDUOO//0Q) Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Greetings to all members Horace Heffner's message of Thu, 31 Mar 2005 13:43:54 >>>< However when the water rotates, a dip forms at the middle, which can drop right down to the floor of the tank at sufficiently high w.> >>> A non-physcist 's visualization of solitonic vortices is at URL: http://lewfh.tripod.com/themindthingthegiftofvisualization/ With regards Lew Horace Heffner wrote: >At 4:55 PM 4/1/5, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > > >>In reply to Horace Heffner's message of Thu, 31 Mar 2005 13:43:54 >> >> > > > >>>>However when the water rotates, a dip forms at the middle, which >>>>can drop right down to the floor of the tank at sufficiently high >>>>w. However, according to the formula, for any w > 0, h > h0 for >>>>all R, since the first term is always positive. >>>> >>>> >>>The h0 above is negative. >>> >>> >>> >>If h = (w^2/2g) x R^2 + h0 and h0 is negative, then for w=0, h=h0 >>and is thus also negative. How does one end up with a negative >>height? >> >> > > >As I stated in the last post, the above surface is only meaningful when h > >0. There is no water in the tank above [at] radii where h <= 0. > >If w=0 then h<=0 everywhere because no water will stay in the tank. No >angular momentum is involved. Any water in the tank is not in equilibrium >as assumed - it will all run out. Please note again that the coreolis >force is ignored throughout. > > > > >>Or should the original formula perhaps be: >> >>h = h0 - (w^2/2g) x R^2 ? >> >>(Since the second term in this version is positive, the height >>becomes less for higher w and also for smaller R, both of which >>make sense). >> >>In short, is h the distance up from the bottom of the tank, or the >>distance down from the surface? >> >> > > >The variable h is the distance up from the bottom of the tank. When h=0 or >h<=0 then there is no water above the radius at which h is computed. The >variable h at final equilibrium is a function of R, R1, and w, where R1 is >the radius of the drain hole. > >The initial or final surface, assumed to be in equilibrium with w constant >at every radius, is concave upwards. The coefficient of R^2 is thus >positive. > >In the initial condition, h0 can be anything depending on how much water is >in the rotating tank. This h0 does not affect the *curvature* of the >surface, however, which is only a function of w, g, and R, assuming the >drain hole is plugged, and w is constant over all radii. The variable h0 >changes as the water drains from the tank. The equation describing the >water surface changes as well, but the final surface should return to the >form h = (w^2/2g) x R^2 + h0 for a rotating tank, assuming that viscosity >forces w to be uniform across all radii, where in the *final* equilibrium: > > h = (w^2/2g) x R^2 - 2g/( w^2 x (R1)^2) > >and w is the final angular velocity of the water and tank, R1 is the drain >radius, and R is a given radius. > >Regards, > >Horace Heffner > > > > > --Boundary_(ID_C7e3xu4d4xfjseDUOO//0Q) Content-type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Greetings to all members
 Horace Heffner's message of Thu, 31 Mar 2005 13:43:54



< However when the water rotates, a dip forms at the middle, which can drop right down to the floor of the tank at sufficiently high w.>
          A non-physcist 's visualization of solitonic vortices is at URL:
             http://lewfh.tripod.com/themindthingthegiftofvisualization/

With regards
    Lew



Horace Heffner wrote: 
At 4:55 PM 4/1/5, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
  
In reply to  Horace Heffner's message of Thu, 31 Mar 2005 13:43:54
    

  
However when the water rotates, a dip forms at the middle, which
can drop right down to the floor of the tank at sufficiently high
w. However, according to the formula, for any w > 0, h > h0 for
all R, since the first term is always positive.
        
The h0 above is negative.

      
If h = (w^2/2g) x R^2 + h0 and h0 is negative, then for w=0, h=h0
and is thus also negative. How does one end up with a negative
height?
    


As I stated in the last post, the above surface is only meaningful when h >
0.  There is no water in the tank above [at] radii where h <= 0.

If w=0 then h<=0 everywhere because no water will stay in the tank.   No
angular momentum is involved.  Any water in the tank is not in equilibrium
as assumed - it will all run out.  Please note again that the coreolis
force is ignored throughout.


  
Or should the original formula perhaps be:

h =  h0 - (w^2/2g) x R^2 ?

(Since the second term in this version is positive, the height
becomes less for higher w and also for smaller R, both of which
make sense).

In short, is h the distance up from the bottom of the tank, or the
distance down from the surface?
    


The variable h is the distance up from the bottom of the tank.  When h=0 or
h<=0 then there is no water above the radius at which h is computed.  The
variable h at final equilibrium is a function of R, R1, and w, where R1 is
the radius of the drain hole.

The initial or final surface, assumed to be in equilibrium with w constant
at every radius, is concave upwards.  The coefficient of R^2 is thus
positive.

In the initial condition, h0 can be anything depending on how much water is
in the rotating tank.  This h0 does not affect the *curvature* of the
surface, however, which is only a function of w, g, and R, assuming the
drain hole is plugged, and w is constant over all radii.  The variable h0
changes as the water drains from the tank.  The equation describing the
water surface changes as well, but the final surface should return to the
form h = (w^2/2g) x R^2 + h0 for a rotating tank, assuming that viscosity
forces w to be uniform across all radii, where in the *final* equilibrium:

   h = (w^2/2g) x R^2 - 2g/( w^2 x (R1)^2)

and w is the final angular velocity of the water and tank, R1 is the drain
radius, and R is a given radius.

Regards,

Horace Heffner

--Boundary_(ID_C7e3xu4d4xfjseDUOO//0Q)-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 1 05:00:55 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j31D0fqK010459; Fri, 1 Apr 2005 05:00:42 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j31D0cbR010436; Fri, 1 Apr 2005 05:00:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 05:00:38 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2005 21:03:45 +0800 From: FHLew Subject: Re: vortex mystery In-reply-to: <424D4394.9010405 tm.net.my> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <424D46B1.4070706 tm.net.my> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en-us, en User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Virus-Scanned: by Spam Firewall Outbound at tm.net.my References: <424D4394.9010405@tm.net.my> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58840 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Greetings to all members A non-physcist 's visualization of solitonic vortices is at URL: 1. http://lewfh.tripod.com/themindthingthegiftofvisualization/ 2. http://lewfh.tripod.com/coloursarecodedfrequenciesinphotonicbandgapcrystalstructures/id4.html With regards Lew FHLew wrote: > > Greetings to all members > > Horace Heffner's message of Thu, 31 Mar 2005 13:43:54 > > >>>> < However when the water rotates, a dip forms at the middle, which >>>> can drop right down to the floor of the tank at sufficiently high w.> >>>> > A non-physcist 's visualization of solitonic vortices is at URL: > http://lewfh.tripod.com/themindthingthegiftofvisualization/ > > With regards > Lew > > > > Horace Heffner wrote: > >> At 4:55 PM 4/1/5, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >> >> >>> In reply to Horace Heffner's message of Thu, 31 Mar 2005 13:43:54 >>> >> >> >> >> >>>>> However when the water rotates, a dip forms at the middle, which >>>>> can drop right down to the floor of the tank at sufficiently high >>>>> w. However, according to the formula, for any w > 0, h > h0 for >>>>> all R, since the first term is always positive. >>>>> >>>> >>>> The h0 above is negative. >>>> >>>> >>> >>> If h = (w^2/2g) x R^2 + h0 and h0 is negative, then for w=0, h=h0 >>> and is thus also negative. How does one end up with a negative >>> height? >>> >> >> >> >> As I stated in the last post, the above surface is only meaningful >> when h > >> 0. There is no water in the tank above [at] radii where h <= 0. >> >> If w=0 then h<=0 everywhere because no water will stay in the tank. No >> angular momentum is involved. Any water in the tank is not in >> equilibrium >> as assumed - it will all run out. Please note again that the coreolis >> force is ignored throughout. >> >> >> >> >>> Or should the original formula perhaps be: >>> >>> h = h0 - (w^2/2g) x R^2 ? >>> >>> (Since the second term in this version is positive, the height >>> becomes less for higher w and also for smaller R, both of which >>> make sense). >>> >>> In short, is h the distance up from the bottom of the tank, or the >>> distance down from the surface? >>> >> >> >> >> The variable h is the distance up from the bottom of the tank. When >> h=0 or >> h<=0 then there is no water above the radius at which h is computed. >> The >> variable h at final equilibrium is a function of R, R1, and w, where >> R1 is >> the radius of the drain hole. >> >> The initial or final surface, assumed to be in equilibrium with w >> constant >> at every radius, is concave upwards. The coefficient of R^2 is thus >> positive. >> >> In the initial condition, h0 can be anything depending on how much >> water is >> in the rotating tank. This h0 does not affect the *curvature* of the >> surface, however, which is only a function of w, g, and R, assuming the >> drain hole is plugged, and w is constant over all radii. The >> variable h0 >> changes as the water drains from the tank. The equation describing the >> water surface changes as well, but the final surface should return to >> the >> form h = (w^2/2g) x R^2 + h0 for a rotating tank, assuming that >> viscosity >> forces w to be uniform across all radii, where in the *final* >> equilibrium: >> >> h = (w^2/2g) x R^2 - 2g/( w^2 x (R1)^2) >> >> and w is the final angular velocity of the water and tank, R1 is the >> drain >> radius, and R is a given radius. >> >> Regards, >> >> Horace Heffner >> >> >> >> > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 1 05:54:39 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j31DsSqK002311; Fri, 1 Apr 2005 05:54:28 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j31DsMR3002255; Fri, 1 Apr 2005 05:54:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 05:54:22 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=Pp8jLIVXf9dfp++x/X+UTbLE2BcPF5y+KOHJ8mlHy386YFeosj/Cm6PW3Jmq/vWkqeQxnjRT6qORlCcY46y+vB9mcjUISoQtrjG1xUpdFvwR9IIBdj7Hu1HShOoyizm0DUfZ6NBTbfLQZ0chkeKIv2OEbHkv/185ff7mKVV9fEY= ; Message-ID: <20050401135413.77437.qmail web60308.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 05:54:13 -0800 (PST) From: Nick Reiter Subject: Re: vortex mystery virus alert To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <424D46B1.4070706 tm.net.my> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58841 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Mr. Lew, and everyone else: I just now went to the first URL listed below in your posting - apparently on your own website. I immediately got a couple of pop-ups followed by several Trojan virus alerts / blocked hits. Please be careful. NR --- FHLew wrote: > Greetings to all members > > A non-physcist 's visualization of solitonic > vortices is at URL: > 1. > http://lewfh.tripod.com/themindthingthegiftofvisualization/ > 2. > http://lewfh.tripod.com/coloursarecodedfrequenciesinphotonicbandgapcrystalstructures/id4.html > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Sports - Sign up for Fantasy Baseball. http://baseball.fantasysports.yahoo.com/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 1 06:38:42 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j31EcVqK025935; Fri, 1 Apr 2005 06:38:32 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j31EcTHe025907; Fri, 1 Apr 2005 06:38:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 06:38:29 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <3rr89m$s8t4ac mxip15a.cluster1.charter.net> X-Ironport-AV: i="3.91,141,1110171600"; d="scan'208"; a="948867404:sNHT11965596" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.12 (webedge20-101-197-20030912) From: To: CC: Subject: OT: Mozanium Discovered in Fusion Experiment Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 14:38:17 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58842 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Vorts, Considering the date, enjoy this late breaking news: http://www.azom.com/news.asp?newsID=2812 Regards Steven Vincent Johnson OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 1 06:55:22 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j31EtAqK032734; Fri, 1 Apr 2005 06:55:11 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j31Et6P0032702; Fri, 1 Apr 2005 06:55:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 06:55:06 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000c01c536ca$c6e99e20$4b037841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Bovada ceilings Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 08:54:58 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0008_01C53698.7BD03A20" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-99.2 required=4.0 tests=HTML_30_40,HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: <8dDOzB.A.7-H.JDWTCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58843 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C53698.7BD03A20 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0009_01C53698.7BD03A20" ------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C53698.7BD03A20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankJones mentioned the skilled craftsmen ( Bovaderos) that construct = the brick arched ceiling section called " Bovada and their beautiful = works in Northern Mexico.This is an ancient skill brought to the new = world that had its origin in the middle east dating back to Sumerian = times The links takes you to a pic of this type workmanship used in building = the Cowboy Artists of America museum located in Kerrville, Texas. The = craftsmen were brought in from Mexico to build these ceiling structures. http://www.fpcarch.com/projects/cowboy.htm Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C53698.7BD03A20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Jones mentioned the skilled craftsmen ( Bovaderos) that construct = the brick=20 arched ceiling section called " Bovada and their beautiful works in = Northern Mexico.This is an ancient skill brought to the new world that = had its=20 origin in the middle east dating back to Sumerian times
The links takes you to a pic of this type workmanship used in = building the=20 Cowboy Artists of America museum located in Kerrville, Texas. The = craftsmen were=20 brought in from Mexico to build these ceiling structures.

http://www.fpcarch.co= m/projects/cowboy.htm

Richard

------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C53698.7BD03A20-- ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C53698.7BD03A20 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000701c536ca$c65b67e0$4b037841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C53698.7BD03A20-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 1 07:17:16 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j31FGwqK008269; Fri, 1 Apr 2005 07:16:59 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j31FGuwn008239; Fri, 1 Apr 2005 07:16:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 07:16:56 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2005 23:20:01 +0800 From: FHLew Subject: Re: vortex mystery virus alert In-reply-to: <20050401135413.77437.qmail web60308.mail.yahoo.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <424D66A1.8080704 tm.net.my> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en-us, en User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Virus-Scanned: by Spam Firewall Outbound at tm.net.my References: <20050401135413.77437.qmail web60308.mail.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58844 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Thanks Nick. I will be careful. With regards Lew Nick Reiter wrote: >Mr. Lew, and everyone else: > >I just now went to the first URL listed below in your >posting - apparently on your own website. I >immediately got a couple of pop-ups followed by >several Trojan virus alerts / blocked hits. Please be >careful. > >NR > >--- FHLew wrote: > > > >>Greetings to all members >> >>A non-physcist 's visualization of solitonic >>vortices is at URL: >>1. >> >> >> >http://lewfh.tripod.com/themindthingthegiftofvisualization/ > > >>2. >> >> >> >http://lewfh.tripod.com/coloursarecodedfrequenciesinphotonicbandgapcrystalstructures/id4.html > > > > > > >__________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >Yahoo! Sports - Sign up for Fantasy Baseball. >http://baseball.fantasysports.yahoo.com/ > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 1 08:50:31 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j31GoKqK029581; Fri, 1 Apr 2005 08:50:21 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j31GoBbg029494; Fri, 1 Apr 2005 08:50:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 08:50:11 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=ifgXhaI2u47GecucHitFQv88VG1xOnimLVAxurchrMfYjeH61URhvJTPW7MOgsjj8ALdmUXYOzi1ETsR1sYBTwM/cRGqECtOd3sFGErN6MAUjf5FmEbn4RMA0XbEB+PRL9ZqxSnqzeusL1Wtr+T8YyFFN9d9Z6JriqqpDycuNzE= ; Message-ID: <20050401164958.37897.qmail web51705.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 08:49:58 -0800 (PST) From: Terry Blanton Subject: $105 per Barrel To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1861853026-1112374198=:36520" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58845 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --0-1861853026-1112374198=:36520 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Goldman Sachs analysis sees $105 super spike: http://uk.biz.yahoo.com/050331/323/ffes2.html --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Better first dates. More second dates. Yahoo! Personals --0-1861853026-1112374198=:36520 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Goldman Sachs analysis sees $105 super spike:
 

Do you Yahoo!?
Better first dates. More second dates. Yahoo! Personals --0-1861853026-1112374198=:36520-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 1 09:24:28 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j31HOEqK014417; Fri, 1 Apr 2005 09:24:15 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j31HOBhV014366; Fri, 1 Apr 2005 09:24:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 09:24:11 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <3spcf3$5bbrge mxip04a.cluster1.charter.net> X-Ironport-AV: i="3.91,141,1110171600"; d="scan'208"; a="179695118:sNHT15280220" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.12 (webedge20-101-197-20030912) From: To: CC: Subject: The BIG DEAL Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 17:23:49 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58846 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Not to distract the Vort membership from the recent fascinating Lithium-Ion "breakthrough" I thought it might be interesting to recap another interesting claim. As you may recall, a couple of weeks ago Terry Blanton brought to our attention the fascinating DOE Sterling solar-dish project. See: http://www.eet.com/news/latest/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=53700939 At first glance this ambitious project appears to be, at least to me, highly promising - if not just a tad ambitious. When mass-produced the prediction has been made that strategically placed solar "dish farms" could generate electricity at comparable costs: Approximately 6.5 cents per kilowatt hour. Here are some of the more interesting statistics, some already revealed by Mr. Blanton: "Eventually, according to DOE estimates, an 11-square-mile farm of Stirling solar dishes could generate as much electricity as the Hoover Dam, and a 100 x 100-mile farm could supply all the daytime needs for electricity in the United States. By storing the energy in hydrogen fuel cells during the day, Stirling solar-dish farms could supply U.S. electrical-energy needs at night too, as well as enough juice for future fuel-cell-powered automobiles, the DOE believes." I wonder if the new nano-engineered Lithium Ion batteries might eventually turn out to be a better storage choice than the fuel-cell approach. At first glance it would seem to me that using the highly batteries might be more economical. Less complex? Fewer moving parts? What to the experts think? Other concerns: Obviously, a 100 x 100 square mile solar dish farm would be a sight to behold, including from orbit. It's a longer length than the distance between the cities of Madison and Milwaukee, a route I travel quite often in Wisconsin. Obviously, building a farm to such a scale is totally impractical! But then, I suspect an 11-square-mile solar dish farm capable of generating as much juice as the Hoover Dam is probably too large as well. Hell! Come to think of it, even a SINGLE square mile dish farm creates a pretty damn big footprint when you think about it. Easily spotted from orbit. Put in another way: If it turned out (for whatever engineering and/or socio-political reason) that a single "solar dish" farms could not occupy a patch of real estate any larger than a square mile patch of land, that would mean the U.S. would have to eventually construct a total of TEN THOUSAND individual solar dish farms if we wish to eventually wean ourselves from fossil fuels. To all of you Vort engineers, planners, and dreamers: Just how feasible would the tackling of this kind of a national engineering project be? Admittedly, I'm probably being naive here, but I actually think this kind of an Apollo Moon / Manhatten-style project is feasible and perhaps even desirable for a number of incalculable reasons. The real hindrances may turn out to be political rather than the formidable engineering challenges. IMHO, you would need a Kennedy-like President giving another famous speech challenging the nation to become solar cell sufficient within ten years - not because the national task would easy but because it would be hard. But, oh, so satisfying when completed. Just like in the Apollo Project think of the unexpected technological spin-offs that are likely to result as corporations learned how to build better AC generators, storage devices, and distribution systems. To make this kind of a national goal fly, however, you would have to get the majority of the population behind it. You absolutely GOTTA get them excited about the concept that we have found a viable way of becoming permanently ! SELF SUFFICIENT in a short period of time. Personally, I'm confident that not only would the engineering problems be resolved we can expect some surprises along the way. The political problems, well, I'm not so sure of. Despite certain claims that it was the "will of God" that Bush was elected the man simply doesn't possess the necessary charisma nor the chutzpa to rally our nation around a focused cause of energy independence, even though I'm convinced he's acutely aware of the problem and desperately wants to do something about it. Unfortunately, it seems to me that the Bush Administration unwisely bogged itself down by tackling a dubious political goal of privatizing social security. Big deal! (With apologies to former President Roosevelt) Regards Steven Vincent Johnson OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 1 09:53:28 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j31HrHqK029322; Fri, 1 Apr 2005 09:53:18 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j31HrBmE029273; Fri, 1 Apr 2005 09:53:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 09:53:11 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050401124345.02bb47d8 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2005 12:52:14 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: The BIG DEAL In-Reply-To: <3spcf3$5bbrge mxip04a.cluster1.charter.net> References: <3spcf3$5bbrge mxip04a.cluster1.charter.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_7932890==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58847 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_7932890==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Steven Vincent Johnson wrote: >When mass-produced the prediction has been made that strategically placed= =20 >solar "dish farms" could generate electricity at comparable costs:=20 >Approximately 6.5 cents per kilowatt hour. That is much more expensive than wind generated electricity. >Other concerns: Obviously, a 100 x 100 square mile solar dish farm would=20 >be a sight to behold, including from orbit. It would be a bad idea to put the entire array in one place. Inclement=20 weather and heavy cloud cover would drastically reduce production. Clouds=20 and seldom cover the entire US west. Also it would be a bad idea because=20 there are no heavy-duty power lines running to places such as the Mohave=20 Desert, and because you cannot transmit electricity thousands of kilometers. I do not think it would be more expensive to spread out the capacity to=20 10,000 standalone locations. A million locations might be more expensive,=20 but if many of them were located on the roofs of large buildings, where the= =20 power is needed, it might actually be cheaper. Wind energy is more concentrated than solar energy and it occurs day and=20 night. Some locations have a great deal of wind, while others such as=20 Georgia and Japan have no commercially useful levels of wind. Solar is more= =20 evenly spread out. Also solar collectors are horizontal, whereas wind=20 turbines collect from a vertical cross-section of the sky, so a wind farm=20 has a far smaller "footprint." In Japan, solar water heaters for bass are very common. People like very=20 hot bath water and the solar heaters makes the water as high as 60=B0C.= There=20 are millions of them, and they must save millions of tons of fuel. - Jed --=====================_7932890==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Steven Vincent Johnson wrote:

When mass-produced the prediction has been made that strategically placed solar "dish farms" could generate electricity at comparable costs: Approximately 6.5 cents per kilowatt hour.

That is much more expensive than wind generated electricity.


Other concerns: Obviously, a = 100 x 100 square mile solar dish farm would be a sight to behold, including from orbit.

It would be a bad idea to put the entire array in one place. Inclement weather and heavy cloud cover would drastically reduce production. Clouds and seldom cover the entire US west. Also it would be a bad idea because there are no heavy-duty power lines running to places such as the Mohave Desert, and because you cannot transmit electricity thousands of kilometers.

I do not think it would be more expensive to spread out the capacity to 10,000 standalone locations. A million locations might be more expensive, but if many of them were located on the roofs of large buildings, where the power is needed, it might actually be cheaper.

Wind energy is more concentrated than solar energy and it occurs day and night. Some locations have a great deal of wind, while others such as Georgia and Japan have no commercially useful levels of wind. Solar is more evenly spread out. Also solar collectors are horizontal, whereas wind turbines collect from a vertical cross-section of the sky, so a wind farm has a far smaller "footprint."

In Japan, solar water heaters for bass are very common. People like very hot bath water and the solar heaters makes the water as high as 60=B0C. There are millions of them, and they must save millions of tons of fuel.

- Jed
 --=====================_7932890==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 1 10:02:52 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j31I2jqK001128; Fri, 1 Apr 2005 10:02:45 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j31I2dHT001094; Fri, 1 Apr 2005 10:02:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 10:02:39 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050401130127.02bbc328 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2005 13:02:33 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: The BIG DEAL In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050401124345.02bb47d8 pop.mindspring.com> References: <3spcf3$5bbrge mxip04a.cluster1.charter.net> <6.2.0.14.2.20050401124345.02bb47d8 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_8506968==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58848 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_8506968==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I wrote: >In Japan, solar water heaters for bass are very common. Meant baths. They do not pamper fish (or Robert Bass) in Japan. - Jed --=====================_8506968==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" I wrote:

In Japan, solar water heaters for bass are very common.

Meant baths. They do not pamper fish (or Robert Bass) in Japan.

- Jed
--=====================_8506968==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 1 11:05:22 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j31J5EqK008248; Fri, 1 Apr 2005 11:05:14 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j31J5BXP008216; Fri, 1 Apr 2005 11:05:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 11:05:11 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <3rr4ua$nu2v9j mxip06a.cluster1.charter.net> X-Ironport-AV: i="3.91,141,1110171600"; d="scan'208"; a="803306803:sNHT17867844" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.12 (webedge20-101-197-20030912) From: To: CC: Subject: Re: The BIG DEAL Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 19:05:02 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58849 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Jed, Having lived in Japan as a wee child back in the late 50s I also learned to appreciate the luxury of a good hot steaming bath. I also liked the fact that Japanese tubs are deep. ... > Meant baths. [Japanese] do not pamper fish (or Robert Bass) in Japan. > > - Jed Kan't speak for Robert, but I'm not so sure about the fish. Ever been to a Koi show? I?ve been to a few here in the U.S. http://www.coloradokoi.com/ But back on subject: I didn?t mean to suggest that a 100 square mile solar farm was a good idea either. I agree that thousands of distributed solar farms strategically sprinkled here and there across the nation would be preferable. The closer the source the less electricity would be lost in long distance transmission. I remember the U.S. Energy Flow Trends ? 2000 chart you brought to my attention. I seem to recall that more than 60% the electrical energy pumped into the transmission lines is simply lost getting to their final destinations. Quite an eye opener. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 1 11:38:14 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j31Jc2qK023531; Fri, 1 Apr 2005 11:38:03 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j31JbtrA023456; Fri, 1 Apr 2005 11:37:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 11:37:55 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050401143242.02c51ad8 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2005 14:37:45 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: The BIG DEAL In-Reply-To: <3rr4ua$nu2v9j mxip06a.cluster1.charter.net> References: <3rr4ua$nu2v9j mxip06a.cluster1.charter.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_14219125==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58850 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_14219125==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Steven Vincent Johnson wrote: >I remember the U.S. Energy Flow Trends ? 2000 chart you brought to my >attention. I seem to recall that more than 60% the electrical energy >pumped into the transmission lines is simply lost getting to their final >destinations. That is waste heat (conversion losses), not transmission losses. Transmission and distribution (T&D) losses are about 3%. See the graph on page 111 in my book which is diagram 13.1 from the Annual Energy Review: http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/aer/diagram5.html - Jed --=====================_14219125==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Steven Vincent Johnson wrote:

I remember the U.S. Energy Flow Trends ? 2000 chart you brought to my attention. I seem to recall that more than 60% the electrical energy pumped into the transmission lines is simply lost getting to their final destinations.

That is waste heat (conversion losses), not transmission losses. Transmission and distribution (T&D) losses are about 3%. See the graph on page 111 in my book which is diagram 13.1 from the Annual Energy Review:

http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/aer/diagram5.html

- Jed
--=====================_14219125==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 1 12:23:53 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j31KNhqK008868; Fri, 1 Apr 2005 12:23:44 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j31KNcT8008816; Fri, 1 Apr 2005 12:23:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 12:23:38 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <001701c536f8$a5f4f290$0100007f xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: The BIG DEAL Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 14:22:43 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0013_01C536C6.44F9C010"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-100.0 required=4.0 tests=HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58851 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C536C6.44F9C010 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0014_01C536C6.44FB46B0" ------=_NextPart_001_0014_01C536C6.44FB46B0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankIt is going to be interesting to watch how the big players in = electric power generation are going to manipulate the numerous new = technical innovations in power generation, battery technology and = hydrogen production. The name of the game for the past 25 years has been " capturing revenue = streams". That means a market that produces a "sure nickel a day" = forever. The Europeans have been the masters of the game. Using the = world bank as a lever, they have succeeded in taking over many 3rd world = country utilities including water, telephone and electric power = generation. In the USA, a major segment of water utilities have been = purchased and/or " franchised" or " privatized". GE Water of Canada has = become one of the leading players in the game. GE, spelled GE Capital = Corporation, the outfit that just made GM stock junk. The outfit that = produced the biggest Corporation on earth ( begins with W ). Electric power generation new plant construction is stagnant while the = Enrons in the game reconfigure their position( with Bush help in tossing = out EPA rules). Watch your local Interstate highway be " privatized" to an " operator" = with the power ro regulate tolls. Texas, Florida and Illinois have = contract tollways now with Cintra of Spain leading the pack. Spell = tollways " revenue streams". Until the big players in the game have decided what the rules will be = and how the money is divided, there will be no push for alternate energy = solutions.. Ditto Social Security. The same events are unfolding in the insurance industry with the major = players like AIG and Warren Buffett. Over the past 4 years these groups = have moved some 25 trillions dollars in insurance assets ( General Re = and others ) offshore and replaced the cash and equivalant with " = derivatives" .. (IOU's to Texans).. I watch the posts and the questions regarding the " why's" things aren't = moving at warp speed to meet this century's demands for energy..=20 The new business model for " revenue streams' is awaiting. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0014_01C536C6.44FB46B0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
It is going to be interesting to watch how the big players in = electric=20 power generation are going to manipulate the numerous new technical = innovations=20 in power generation, battery technology and hydrogen production.
 
The name of the game for the past 25 years has been " capturing = revenue=20 streams". That means a market that produces a "sure nickel a day" = forever. The=20 Europeans have been the masters of the game. Using the world bank as a = lever,=20 they have succeeded in taking over many 3rd world country utilities = including=20 water, telephone and electric power generation. In the USA, a major = segment of=20 water utilities have been purchased and/or " franchised" or " = privatized". GE=20 Water of Canada has become one of the leading players in the game. GE, = spelled=20 GE Capital Corporation, the outfit that just made GM stock junk. The = outfit that=20 produced the biggest Corporation on earth ( begins with W ).
 
Electric power generation new plant construction is stagnant while = the=20 Enrons in the game reconfigure their position( with Bush help in tossing = out EPA=20 rules).
 
Watch your local Interstate highway be " privatized" to an " = operator" with=20 the power ro regulate tolls. Texas, Florida and Illinois have contract = tollways=20 now with Cintra of Spain leading the pack. Spell tollways " revenue=20 streams".
 
Until the big players in the game have decided what the rules will = be and=20 how the money is divided, there will be no push for alternate energy = solutions..=20 Ditto Social Security.
 
The same events are unfolding in the insurance industry with the = major=20 players like AIG and Warren Buffett. Over the past 4 years these groups = have=20 moved some 25 trillions dollars in insurance assets ( General Re and = others )=20 offshore and replaced the cash and equivalant with " derivatives" .. = (IOU's to=20 Texans)..
 
I watch the posts and the questions regarding the " why's" things = aren't=20 moving at warp speed to meet this century's demands for energy..
The new business model for " revenue streams' is awaiting.
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_0014_01C536C6.44FB46B0-- ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C536C6.44F9C010 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <001201c536f8$8f87fb10$0100007f xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C536C6.44F9C010-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 1 12:26:25 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j31KQ9qK010565; Fri, 1 Apr 2005 12:26:10 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j31KQ7RA010535; Fri, 1 Apr 2005 12:26:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 12:26:07 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20050401122925.03112668 mail.dlsi.net> X-Sender: steven%newenergytimes.com mail.dlsi.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2005 12:33:09 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: $105 per Barrel In-Reply-To: <20050401164958.37897.qmail web51705.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_169417484==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58852 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_169417484==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Thanks Terry. I was wondering when we'd see those predictions in the mainstream. Funny that they use the word "spike." s At 08:49 AM 4/1/2005 -0800, you wrote: >Goldman Sachs analysis sees $105 super spike: > >http://uk.biz.yahoo.com/050331/323/ffes2.html > > >Do you Yahoo!? >Better first dates. More second dates. >Yahoo! Personals --=====================_169417484==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Thanks Terry.

I was wondering when we'd see those predictions in the mainstream.

Funny that they use the word "spike."

s


At 08:49 AM 4/1/2005 -0800, you wrote:
Goldman Sachs analysis sees $105 super spike:
 
http://uk.biz.yahoo.com/050331/323/ffes2.html


Do you Yahoo!?
Better first dates. More second dates. Yahoo! Personals
--=====================_169417484==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 1 12:35:15 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j31KYxqK018510; Fri, 1 Apr 2005 12:35:00 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j31KYsIM018444; Fri, 1 Apr 2005 12:34:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 12:34:54 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <424DB073.2060609 pobox.com> Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2005 15:34:59 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.5) Gecko/20050105 Debian/1.7.5-1 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com CC: orionworks charter.net Subject: Re: The BIG DEAL References: <3spcf3$5bbrge mxip04a.cluster1.charter.net> In-Reply-To: <3spcf3$5bbrge mxip04a.cluster1.charter.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58853 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: orionworks charter.net wrote: >Not to distract the Vort membership from the recent fascinating Lithium-Ion "breakthrough" I thought it might be interesting to recap another interesting claim. As you may recall, a couple of weeks ago Terry Blanton brought to our attention the fascinating DOE Sterling solar-dish project. > >See: http://www.eet.com/news/latest/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=53700939 > > Time to expose my ignorance a bit. Does anyone here know how they generate "grid-ready" AC from these engines? "Grid-ready" implies exactly 60 Hz, in phase with the grid, right? And that implies that the alternators must be mechanically linked in some way. Absent such a linkage, the problem of matching phase and frequency would seem to be just as bad for the Stirling farm as the problem of inverting the DC from a solar panel farm is. What kind of linkage would be used to keep a 100 square mile block of Stirling motors phase-locked? (For that matter, why don't we just switch to 300 Hz electricity everywhere? It would cut our conversion losses dramatically, bringing us much closer to energy independence, and would be far safer than 60 Hz power to boot -- 60 Hz is an almost ideal frequency for scrambling the PLL which controls your heart muscle. Seems just as practical as lots of other schemes we've heard tell of, and it doesn't use any untried technology, nor does it assume the results of some future bit of research will pay off in an appropriate way. All it requires is the will to do it.) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 1 12:42:03 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j31KfrqK022927; Fri, 1 Apr 2005 12:41:53 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j31KfawJ022748; Fri, 1 Apr 2005 12:41:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 12:41:36 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <424DB204.7050900 pobox.com> Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2005 15:41:40 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.5) Gecko/20050105 Debian/1.7.5-1 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: $105 per Barrel References: <5.2.0.9.2.20050401122925.03112668 mail.dlsi.net> In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20050401122925.03112668 mail.dlsi.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58855 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Steven Krivit wrote: > Thanks Terry. > > I was wondering when we'd see those predictions in the mainstream. This projection actually did appear in the mainstream press a while back. Er, that is, if you count Le Monde as being mainstream -- they're "mainstream" across the pond, anyway. I was going to post the link but unfortunately I didn't think of that until the following day, I didn't save the link, and haven't figured out how to search their archives yet. So, I can't post it now, either, more's the pity. The news we get in the States isn't exactly identical to the news the rest of the world sees. > > Funny that they use the word "spike." > > s > > > At 08:49 AM 4/1/2005 -0800, you wrote: > >> Goldman Sachs analysis sees $105 super spike: >> >> http://uk.biz.yahoo.com/050331/323/ffes2.html >> >> >> Do you Yahoo!? >> Better first dates. More second dates. Yahoo! Personals >> > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 1 12:43:24 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j31KhBqK024988; Fri, 1 Apr 2005 12:43:12 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j31KduM0021579; Fri, 1 Apr 2005 12:39:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 12:39:56 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 14:39:38 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: difference in world views Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <2VOLoB.A.uQF.aGbTCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58854 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: As a continuation of the will of god thread, I sent Leaking Pen a three page discussion on the differences in world views of liberals and conservatives. I'm rather proud of my writing, and would be pleased to forward it to any Vortexians who are interested. Leaking's response was that I was sick, and in need of professional help, and that he would pray daily for my deliverance. About the same time Dennis Prager brought up the story of the poor schmoe in Canada. His mother took her twin sons in to be circumcised. The medical professionals burnt one boy's penis off. They convinced his mother that it would be a good idea to raise him as a girl, and then they castrated him, and injected him with estrogen. And why not? their college professors had told them that there was no difference between a boy and a girl. To the surprise of no one, no one bereft of a PhD in psychology, that is, it didn't work. The child was quite traumatized by the experience. I saw the whole horror story on our local People's Broadcasting Affiliate. Earlier this week I became aware of the efforts on the part of some Minnesota Senators to force children into day care at one year of age. The intention being to educate them in tolerance and diversity. The intent of the group of bills, which can be seen at www.edaction.org , click on the April 14 meeting details, is clearly to educate the children into this aspect of the liberal world view. If you are opposed to two men or two women who love each other getting married, them you are a bigoted homophobe,which by definition makes you mentally ill. Part of the group of bills address mental health. As can be witnessed by Leaking's reaction, when the Liberal World View is challenged, their reaction is to declare the person mentally ill. Leaking, I don't know what god it is that you pray to, but if it is other than the G-d of Israel, you might as well do something productive like counting your gonads. As for help from the mental health professionals, IMHO, I know more about the subject than they do, so I think I'll pass. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 1 12:57:03 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j31KuvqK001965; Fri, 1 Apr 2005 12:56:58 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j31KunFB001892; Fri, 1 Apr 2005 12:56:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 12:56:49 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=CDuAjUkSu7aph4acnylOVb+fhvmcXyWeKW2IyJyOJk8+FwD6g7U3Y06R0eHqKgqOTPk2Bi9e+JjkEyVE8zVlHhWpcu6Z1AlzSQkuS3KTvgle/hd9hn48VaKUd+MRHQsb4xj9Sa6VmjNk2vhV9CTV2M0DdAZB2u7HTdYvB0vmVOk= ; Message-ID: <20050401205641.82350.qmail web51704.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 12:56:41 -0800 (PST) From: Terry Blanton Subject: Re: $105 per Barrel To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: 6667 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-2062741962-1112389001=:81195" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58856 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-2062741962-1112389001=:81195 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Yeah, my web reference was the UK version of Yahoo news. "Stephen A. Lawrence" wrote:The news we get in the States isn't exactly identical to the news the rest of the world sees. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! --0-2062741962-1112389001=:81195 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Yeah, my web reference was the UK version of Yahoo news.

"Stephen A. Lawrence" <salaw pobox.com> wrote:
The news we get in the States isn't exactly identical to the news the
rest of the world sees.

Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! --0-2062741962-1112389001=:81195-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 1 13:26:11 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j31LQ2qK014077; Fri, 1 Apr 2005 13:26:02 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j31LPtwp014024; Fri, 1 Apr 2005 13:25:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 13:25:55 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050401162500.02bc9bf0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2005 16:25:39 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Does anyone here speak Portuguese? In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050331143739.02bfb6d0 pop.mindspring.com> References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050331143739.02bfb6d0 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_20698328==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58857 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_20698328==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Okay, I finally got in touch with the author and the document is fixed. - Jed --=====================_20698328==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Okay, I finally got in touch with the author and the document is fixed.

- Jed
 --=====================_20698328==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 1 13:29:32 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j31LTOqK015690; Fri, 1 Apr 2005 13:29:24 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j31LTLFB015666; Fri, 1 Apr 2005 13:29:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 13:29:21 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <424DBD24.3050403 cox.net> Disposition-Notification-To: "Hoyt A. Stearns Jr." Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2005 14:29:08 -0700 From: "Hoyt A. Stearns Jr." Organization: ISUS User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The BIG DEAL References: <3spcf3$5bbrge mxip04a.cluster1.charter.net> <424DB073.2060609@pobox.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58858 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: It's easy -- use an induction generator. Any induction motor when spun above it's synchronous speed will push power into its supply without any regard to phasing etc. Hoyt Stearns, EE Scottsdale, Arizona Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > > > > Does anyone here know how they generate "grid-ready" AC from these > engines? "Grid-ready" implies exactly 60 Hz, in phase with the grid, > right? > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 1 13:48:55 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j31Lmibh024062; Fri, 1 Apr 2005 13:48:45 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j31Lmgp5024047; Fri, 1 Apr 2005 13:48:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 13:48:42 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <424DC1C4.2090901 pobox.com> Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2005 16:48:52 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.5) Gecko/20050105 Debian/1.7.5-1 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: difference in world views References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <_vxD6B.A.s3F.6GcTCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58859 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: thomas malloy wrote: > About the same time Dennis Prager brought up the story of the poor > schmoe in Canada. His mother took her twin sons in to be circumcised. > [snip the rest -- seeing this once was more than enough] So score 1 for Abraham. Accidents and trauma as a result of circumcision are not especially rare, and by the nature of the surgery, the "accidents" tend to be horror stories. There is no _medical_ reason for circumcision -- the only justification is religious, and the only common religious reason is that pact Abraham made a long, long time ago. Just what was your point here, Thomas? That confronted with a medical disaster, some doctors may make bad decisions that make the situation worse? Or were you attempting to point out that circumcision is an accident waiting to happen and should be abolished? Or were you just trying to gross out everybody on the list? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 1 14:04:29 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j31M4JRS030237; Fri, 1 Apr 2005 14:04:19 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j31M4Ge8030207; Fri, 1 Apr 2005 14:04:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 14:04:16 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=S5SAEJ5GPEoK33j+HU42Nm3XEcivmDj4junkNleRhJln263KG9nC53ejjEUWZsKXJWfqkgAyH5PVdLJw2xCKz12HaFZkuESs3S6TFAmJB68fLjdmL/s3Rnb6niq4lMZ9i7isd8EswGVI5wYTY7dvNPIXcJk5V1HZnjzixeBxILg= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 15:04:11 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: difference in world views In-Reply-To: <424DC1C4.2090901 pobox.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 References: <424DC1C4.2090901@pobox.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j31M4BRS030179 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58860 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: errm, nazis were atheists. lemarkian evolutionists philisophically, >if memory serves. > >yes, im in college. i didnt say they were all great. and actually, >ive been to iraq, about 6 years ago, as part of a high school exchange >program. the farm slums are a higher quality than here. If it weren't for the oil revenues, the Arab nations would be fourth world economies, unable to even feed themselves. Having a socialist government handing out oil money gives then an illusion of prosperity. They are incapable of having either democracy or an advanced economy because many of the people are immoral and jealous. They also lack the legal system which is necessary in order to make a system like ours work. > as for >christian countries being better, hows about we take a look at >predominantly catholic south america. Don't confuse Catholicism, which is a mixture of Paganism and Christianity with Protestant Evangelical Christianity. South America was colonized by the Spanish and Portuguese, their legal system is different from those based on English Common Law, which is based on the Torah. >very third world. ohh, but >that probably wont cut it for you. i forgot, brown people dont count >in your little world. >How disrespectful of you to tell what counts in my world. One of our >senior Rabbis said that "there is only one race, and that is the >Human Race. > Leaking, you are a classic example of a miseducated person. You have been educated by liberals and never been exposed to the other world view. Liberal used to mean libertarian, however they have co-opted that word and and the word progressive. They have come to mean a leftist, or socialist. They also embrace what I can ABC, anything but Christianity. While there are are Christians among them, they don't believe in scriptural enerronacy. Once you accept that premise, you are free to throw out what ever is inconvenient about what the Bible says. They have this in common with Islamists who give lip service to the God of Abraham, but have their own version of Biblical stories. They Liberals have developed quite the mythos about their ideas, the first of which is that they are liberal. Another part of this mythos is that there is a difference between Marxism (Communism) and Nazism. Both systems are totalitarian. Both are opposed to the G-d of Israel. The Nazi's were openly pagan. On the other hand, Lenin, said that there were "two groups of people, those who knew what was going on, and the useful idiots." I can prove that the Marxist leadership agenda grew directly out of Satanism. The Communists killed people of the entrepreneurial class, the Nazi's killed people who were descended from Jews. Now, do you see any difference between them? because I don't. Liberals have the the misguided world view that begins with there not being a G-d who is the King, and the creator of the universe. Some of them have substituted the idea of the universe being god. Consequently they worship nature. One manifestation of this is the plan to reduce the human population to 500 million people. This assumes that they have a right to determine what is an appropriate population for the Earth, and I assume that you know what happens when you ass-u-me, eh? Some of them believe that the individual is god. It's best expressed by the New Age mantra, you are god, and I am god, and we are gods. Some of them have embraced Hinduism or Buddhism. Then there are those who really know what's going on, they worship Lucifer as god. In order to make sense of the universe the Liberals have created the theory of evolution and the spontaneous aggregation of the solar system. You may have noticed that Robert Park was quick to ridicule Intelligent Design when someone decided to include a sticker in a biology text pointing out that evolution was an unproven theory. This despite the fact that the chemical reactions which facilitate life are so complicated, that the probability of their happening spontaneously is 10 with over 100 zeros after it. Despite their grand claims they have made based on their ability to manipulate life at the genetic level, the scientists have no understanding of the energy field, Chi, which makes life work. Dolly, the sheep became an old sheep at the same speed as the animal from which the cells were taken, this is because they lack the ability to cause the genetic material to undergo the sexual fusion process which resets the genetic material. Then there is the matter of the Earth, and the system which surrounds it. Again the Liberals choose to ignore the complexity of the system. I also suggest Hugh Ross's Creator and Cosmos, which points out all the factors that have to be incorporated from the galactic level on down in order for life to exist. Liberals believe in free speech for themselves, but they are intolerant of differing opinions. Liberals love big government. In the more extreme forms of Liberalism, they want to do away with the family and institute the nanny state. We are rallying our forces here in Minnesota, to defeat a liberal plan which would force children into day care at one year of age. This is an attempt to begin planting the liberal agenda in their heads. This includes an early sexualization and a sexuality divorced from morality. They want to give mood altering drugs to children who don't fit into their cookie cutter educational system. What this amounts to is chemical castration of boys. Their agenda is to produce willing workers who will be effective cogs in the wheels of their machine. Once you have out lived your usefulness, they would just as soon that you die. To facilitate this they have developed chemical drugs and called them pharmaceuticals. They have established a high priest class of health providers and called them MD's, and outlawed all other forms of healing, and called the practitioners of them quacks. They support abortion and euthanasia, which destroys respect of human life, and embraces a culture of death. George Orwell and Aldous Huxley were both liberals who became disillusioned with what they saw developing in Russia. Orwell wrote Animal Farm, Huxley wrote Brave New World, and Brave New World Revisited. If you want to see just how screwed up the Liberal agenda is, it would suggest that you read them. Huxley pointed out that when sex is divorced from reproduction leads to sexual libertinism, Orwell that the bureaucrats would become a new ruling elite. The Liberal's agenda involves the destruction of America and the state of Israel. Consequently they will side with any force that is against either nation. This means that even though the Islamists treat women like chattel, the feminists support them. Even though the Islamists are even more puritanical about sexual matters than the evangelical Christians, the smut merchants of Hollyweird support them. Even though the state of Israel respects the rights of minorities, the Liberals side with them. Another liberal mythos is that we are uneducated trailer trash. Again, this is just the opposite of the truth. The hosts on Salem Broadcasting's daytime lineup, Laura Ingram, Dennis Prager, Michael Medved, and Hugh Hewitt, three of whom have JD's, and the fourth teaches Tanach (Old Testament) at the Judica University. Medved's latest book, Right Turns. is the story of how he went from being a Yale educated liberal agnostic, to an Orthodox and a conservative, is an excellent discussion of the subject. So why is this so important that I'm spending my time explaining this to you? Because the Time of the Gentiles has been fulfilled. It ended in 1967 with the conquest of Jerusalem by the Israelis. What follows in the final generation, which I expect to last about 40 years. YHVH has made it plane that there is no place for these people in the renewed world, and that they will be incinerated. Having had to suffer with them for the past half century, I say. good riddance. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simply put, he is stating that his god has a bigger dick than any other god, and anyone who doesnt follow his particular little invisible man in the sky is inherently evil and not to be trusted. hes spewed out a series of untruths about liberal thinking that he hasnt even thought about, just accepted verbatim from conservative thinkers, then says that all liberals are brainwashed and cant think for themselves. pot, meet mr kettle. quite simply, if you talked this way about anything other than religion and politics, theres not a psych in teh world that wouldnt classify you as delusional man. hey, guess what? jesus was a liberal. he was also a jew. deal with it. On Apr 1, 2005 2:48 PM, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > > > thomas malloy wrote: > > > About the same time Dennis Prager brought up the story of the poor > > schmoe in Canada. His mother took her twin sons in to be circumcised. > > [snip the rest -- seeing this once was more than enough] > > So score 1 for Abraham. Accidents and trauma as a result of > circumcision are not especially rare, and by the nature of the surgery, > the "accidents" tend to be horror stories. There is no _medical_ reason > for circumcision -- the only justification is religious, and the only > common religious reason is that pact Abraham made a long, long time ago. > > Just what was your point here, Thomas? That confronted with a medical > disaster, some doctors may make bad decisions that make the situation > worse? Or were you attempting to point out that circumcision is an > accident waiting to happen and should be abolished? > > Or were you just trying to gross out everybody on the list? > > -- "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 1 14:13:33 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j31MDJRS001611; Fri, 1 Apr 2005 14:13:20 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j31MDD01001557; Fri, 1 Apr 2005 14:13:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 14:13:14 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The BIG DEAL Date: Sat, 02 Apr 2005 08:12:56 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <48hr411vr41lh24i5sd7mll4anrvqlll0d 4ax.com> References: <3spcf3$5bbrge mxip04a.cluster1.charter.net> <6.2.0.14.2.20050401124345.02bb47d8@pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050401124345.02bb47d8 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j31MD3RS001463 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58861 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jed Rothwell's message of Fri, 01 Apr 2005 12:52:14 -0500: Hi, [snip] >Steven Vincent Johnson wrote: > >>When mass-produced the prediction has been made that strategically placed >>solar "dish farms" could generate electricity at comparable costs: >>Approximately 6.5 cents per kilowatt hour. > >That is much more expensive than wind generated electricity. I suspect the cost of a solar trough farm would be considerably less, if cheap composite plastic mirrors were used. (Mounting is much simpler, as is tracking control.) I would estimate mirror costs being at least ten times less. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 1 14:27:14 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j31MR7RS007279; Fri, 1 Apr 2005 14:27:08 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j31MR4Ed007254; Fri, 1 Apr 2005 14:27:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 14:27:04 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050401171737.02ba62d8 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2005 17:26:56 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: The BIG DEAL In-Reply-To: <48hr411vr41lh24i5sd7mll4anrvqlll0d 4ax.com> References: <3spcf3$5bbrge mxip04a.cluster1.charter.net> <6.2.0.14.2.20050401124345.02bb47d8 pop.mindspring.com> <48hr411vr41lh24i5sd7mll4anrvqlll0d 4ax.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_1421468==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58862 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_1421468==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > >>Approximately 6.5 cents per kilowatt hour. > > > >That is much more expensive than wind generated electricity. > >I suspect the cost of a solar trough farm would be considerably >less, if cheap composite plastic mirrors were used. >(Mounting is much simpler, as is tracking control.) That might work. It shows how projecting costs for this kind of speculative project is both risky and unfair. Wind has been developed rather intensely since the 1970s, and it has benefited from a huge amount of practical experience. When development began, it cost over $1 per kWh in 1978, and many people thought it would not be competitive. Conservatives denounced the tax subsidies in California used to encourage the development of wind power. (Conservatives seldom denounce the subsidies for oil, gas or nuclear power, except at the Cato Institute.) Until someone builds a substantial number of these things for several billion dollars, we will not know the final cost, and we will not be able to judge how well they can compete with conventional energy and wind power. - Jed --=====================_1421468==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

>>Approximately 6.5 cents per kilowatt hour.
>
>That is much more expensive than wind generated electricity.

I suspect the cost of a solar trough farm would be considerably
less, if cheap composite plastic mirrors were used.
(Mounting is much simpler, as is tracking control.)

That might work. It shows how projecting costs for this kind of speculative project is both risky and unfair. Wind has been developed rather intensely since the 1970s, and it has benefited from a huge amount of practical experience. When development began, it cost over $1 per kWh in 1978, and many people thought it would not be competitive. Conservatives denounced the tax subsidies in California used to encourage the development of wind power. (Conservatives seldom denounce the subsidies for oil, gas or nuclear power, except at the Cato Institute.)

Until someone builds a substantial number of these things for several billion dollars, we will not know the final cost, and we will not be able to judge how well they can compete with conventional energy and wind power.

- Jed
--=====================_1421468==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 1 14:56:43 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j31MuaRS017155; Fri, 1 Apr 2005 14:56:36 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j31MuYHc017135; Fri, 1 Apr 2005 14:56:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 14:56:34 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=4MgPFEZYNy+6wBFmYfnCsK1LmWOQIYz2iCEd1KNOl8/QAJva3Rt6KHvneeVt5m2mD0TMUwp7f3nf/ARmSK91Bfh6Ye2/bwsjVXJkPHpcLKagudncTA+cjYXc2erVYPFdgilB5oTRKpU1A89mK5woCkgUH10wMmr2wcU/LjQavp0= ; Message-ID: <20050401225627.97612.qmail web51701.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 14:56:27 -0800 (PST) From: Terry Blanton Subject: Re: difference in world views To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: 6667 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1192007115-1112396187=:97251" Resent-Message-ID: <_vMG1.A.sLE.hGdTCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58863 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-1192007115-1112396187=:97251 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii You ever ask for a BJ when you have smegma? Ackshully, autostimulation in males is enhanced with an intact prepuce, the likely reason for the 'covenant'. Comandment #611, "Thoushaltnot speweee thy peckersnot 'pongaia." "Stephen A. Lawrence" wrote: There is no _medical_ reason for circumcision --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! --0-1192007115-1112396187=:97251 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
You ever ask for a BJ when you have smegma?
 
Ackshully, autostimulation in males is enhanced with an intact prepuce, the likely reason for the 'covenant'.
 
Comandment #611, "Thoushaltnot speweee thy peckersnot 'pongaia."

"Stephen A. Lawrence" <salaw pobox.com> wrote:
There is no _medical_ reason
for circumcision

Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! --0-1192007115-1112396187=:97251-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 1 15:12:58 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j31NCoRS022810; Fri, 1 Apr 2005 15:12:51 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j31NCmOr022784; Fri, 1 Apr 2005 15:12:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 15:12:48 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <410-22005451231219180 ix.netcom.com> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: aki ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.1.47.0 (Windows) From: "Akira Kawasaki" To: "vortex-l" Subject: FW: WHAT'S NEW Friday, April 01, 2005 Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 15:12:19 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: c4cc7f5f697e8746f66dc3a06d5924d81b54813c4f387ace600b6d1d469ccabc31a49835436c9336350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 216.175.80.211 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58864 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > From: What's New > To: Akira Kawasaki Date: 4/1/2005 1:26:38 PM Subject: WHAT'S NEW Friday, April 01, 2005 WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 1 Apr 05 Washington, DC 1. AMBIGUITY?: "..DEAD WRONG ON ALMOST ALL PRE-WAR JUDGEMENTS.." The President's Commission on Intelligence Regarding Weapons of Mass Destruction released its report yesterday. The media have described it as "scathing." It wasn't. The cover letter explained that intelligence professionals didn't fudge the data, they really believed what they said. "They were simply wrong." Like that's OK? The President, appearing with the co-chairs at a press conference, seemed pleased, even though in principle he's responsible for anything that went on during his watch. Whether someone at the White House should have asked a few hard questions wasn't in the Commission's charge. Besides, the President fired CIA Director George Tenet, who said the question of WMDs was a "slam-dunk." That was before Tenet was awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom http://www.aps.org/WN/WN04/wn121704.cfm. 2. PIGASUS: IT'S APRIL FIRST, THE PIG THAT FLIES IS ON THE WING. Yes, it's the day the coveted Pigasus Awards will be announced. The winners are informed by ESP, but their names came to me last night as I slept, as in a dream. The lucky winners will receive handsome trophies of the Flying Pig via psychokinesis. If they don't get delivery they should look inwardly. All the winners and details will be posted today on Randi's web site http://www.randi.org/jr/040105capitalizing.html. 3. HIGHER AUTHORITY: EVANGELICALS RELY ON THE BIBLE FOR GUIDANCE. It's not just creationism. The success of the religious right in the last election seems to have led them to test the limits. In Colorado, the State Supreme Court took a man off death row after it was disclosed that in imposing the death penalty, the jury had consulted the bible (Leviticus 21:24, "an eye for an eye..."). In pharmacies around the country, devout pharmacists are refusing to fill prescriptions for birth control and morning-after pills because of their religious beliefs. But surely the strangest case is that of John Brown, an evangelical Christian from Dallas, who founded Zion Oil. It has always seemed ironic that the "chosen land" should be the only place in the Middle East that doesn't sit on a sea of oil. Brown is convinced that passages in the Old-Testament pinpoint the exact spot to drill: a field near Afula. In Deuteronomy 33:24 Moses said, "Most blessed of sons be Asher... may he dip his foot in oil." Asher's plot of land looks like a foot to Brown, and he has a license to drill under the toe. This sort of Bible Code led the faithful to sink millions in Brown's plan. Lo, there came oilmen from the West. 4. JOE NEWMAN: LEGENDARY INVENTOR OF "THE ENERGY MACHINE" RETURNS On Monday, he held a press conference here in the National Press Building. Joe made one contribution to society in his lifetime, by suing the Patent Office for denying him a patent. The 1986 decision in Newman v. Quigg (the Patent Commissioner) is now cited as the authority for denying patent applications for perpetual motion machines out of hand. THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND. Opinions are the author's and not necessarily shared by the University of Maryland, but they should be. --- Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.aps.org/WN To subscribe, send a blank e-mail to: From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 1 16:31:25 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j320VIRS016306; Fri, 1 Apr 2005 16:31:19 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j320V9nm016262; Fri, 1 Apr 2005 16:31:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 16:31:09 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <424DE7DF.9050303 ihug.co.nz> Date: Sat, 02 Apr 2005 12:31:27 +1200 From: John Berry User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The BIG DEAL References: <3spcf3$5bbrge mxip04a.cluster1.charter.net> In-Reply-To: <3spcf3$5bbrge mxip04a.cluster1.charter.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j320V5RS016234 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58865 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I see no problem with a massive farm, or with lots of smaller ones, and ones on top of buildings, and roofs. orionworks charter.net wrote: >Not to distract the Vort membership from the recent fascinating Lithium-Ion "breakthrough" I thought it might be interesting to recap another interesting claim. As you may recall, a couple of weeks ago Terry Blanton brought to our attention the fascinating DOE Sterling solar-dish project. > >See: http://www.eet.com/news/latest/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=53700939 > >At first glance this ambitious project appears to be, at least to me, highly promising - if not just a tad ambitious. When mass-produced the prediction has been made that strategically placed solar "dish farms" could generate electricity at comparable costs: Approximately 6.5 cents per kilowatt hour. > >Here are some of the more interesting statistics, some already revealed by Mr. Blanton: > >"Eventually, according to DOE estimates, an 11-square-mile farm of Stirling solar dishes could generate as much electricity as the Hoover Dam, and a 100 x 100-mile farm could supply all the daytime needs for electricity in the United States. By storing the energy in hydrogen fuel cells during the day, Stirling solar-dish farms could supply U.S. electrical-energy needs at night too, as well as enough juice for future fuel-cell-powered automobiles, the DOE believes." > >I wonder if the new nano-engineered Lithium Ion batteries might eventually turn out to be a better storage choice than the fuel-cell approach. At first glance it would seem to me that using the highly batteries might be more economical. Less complex? Fewer moving parts? > >What to the experts think? > >Other concerns: Obviously, a 100 x 100 square mile solar dish farm would be a sight to behold, including from orbit. It's a longer length than the distance between the cities of Madison and Milwaukee, a route I travel quite often in Wisconsin. Obviously, building a farm to such a scale is totally impractical! But then, I suspect an 11-square-mile solar dish farm capable of generating as much juice as the Hoover Dam is probably too large as well. Hell! Come to think of it, even a SINGLE square mile dish farm creates a pretty damn big footprint when you think about it. Easily spotted from orbit. > >Put in another way: If it turned out (for whatever engineering and/or socio-political reason) that a single "solar dish" farms could not occupy a patch of real estate any larger than a square mile patch of land, that would mean the U.S. would have to eventually construct a total of TEN THOUSAND individual solar dish farms if we wish to eventually wean ourselves from fossil fuels. > >To all of you Vort engineers, planners, and dreamers: Just how feasible would the tackling of this kind of a national engineering project be? > >Admittedly, I'm probably being naive here, but I actually think this kind of an Apollo Moon / Manhatten-style project is feasible and perhaps even desirable for a number of incalculable reasons. The real hindrances may turn out to be political rather than the formidable engineering challenges. IMHO, you would need a Kennedy-like President giving another famous speech challenging the nation to become solar cell sufficient within ten years - not because the national task would easy but because it would be hard. But, oh, so satisfying when completed. Just like in the Apollo Project think of the unexpected technological spin-offs that are likely to result as corporations learned how to build better AC generators, storage devices, and distribution systems. To make this kind of a national goal fly, however, you would have to get the majority of the population behind it. You absolutely GOTTA get them excited about the concept that we have found a viable way of becoming permanently ! > SELF SUFFICIENT in a short period of time. Personally, I'm confident that not only would the engineering problems be resolved we can expect some surprises along the way. > >The political problems, well, I'm not so sure of. Despite certain claims that it was the "will of God" that Bush was elected the man simply doesn't possess the necessary charisma nor the chutzpa to rally our nation around a focused cause of energy independence, even though I'm convinced he's acutely aware of the problem and desperately wants to do something about it. Unfortunately, it seems to me that the Bush Administration unwisely bogged itself down by tackling a dubious political goal of privatizing social security. Big deal! (With apologies to former President Roosevelt) > >Regards > >Steven Vincent Johnson >OrionWorks.com > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 1 16:54:12 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j320s4Uc024379; Fri, 1 Apr 2005 16:54:04 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j320s1bY024321; Fri, 1 Apr 2005 16:54:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 16:54:01 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=syBv6UhFLoVZF02ls49O21V6lT5x+TjxZdGeGUd/oVUOpF79yenqQsOTKsMjoAa6Vmyw7tIGwSqAfOG+iWPzLxRgSRPvQavhkH3TixkhvhrcY/6YWN1sbRLGDRzYuely6c4kyRqtBge5QjvHVTpuuzLD67zPr2HVo61vgRFb2+E= ; Message-ID: <20050402005351.27713.qmail web51701.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 16:53:51 -0800 (PST) From: Terry Blanton Subject: Re: The BIG DEAL To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: 6667 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-16991082-1112403231=:27528" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58866 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-16991082-1112403231=:27528 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mylar. Robin van Spaandonk wrote:I would estimate mirror costs being at least ten times less. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! --0-16991082-1112403231=:27528 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Mylar.

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au> wrote:
I would estimate mirror costs being at least ten times less.

Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! --0-16991082-1112403231=:27528-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 1 16:57:34 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j320vPUc025727; Fri, 1 Apr 2005 16:57:25 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j320vL4M025689; Fri, 1 Apr 2005 16:57:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 16:57:21 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=I8XhSPhG9IW3TTYMOwm3hr8w9zB+2d6leDnWh2Q9R+S/fgQUDHIH051GxHitJWvrhYVMngfkQ1xMZtswhy/y7FaDggjbQTGK6IurRq2xlKMDL2EHhRNZTLHGN8Z5stRKK6jlMOaRi5FnuzTCfnqxD5WSfHTmu+09rPVf6UvgQt8= ; Message-ID: <20050402005713.40467.qmail web51706.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 16:57:13 -0800 (PST) From: Terry Blanton Subject: Re: The BIG DEAL To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: 6667 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-932148428-1112403433=:35195" Resent-Message-ID: <9FrBiD.A.WRG.x3eTCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58867 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-932148428-1112403433=:35195 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Would you advise Dean Kamen to do so? Jed Rothwell wrote:Until someone builds a substantial number of these things for several billion dollars, we will not know the final cost, and we will not be able to judge how well they can compete with conventional energy and wind power. --------------------------------- Yahoo! Messenger Show us what our next emoticon should look like. Join the fun. --0-932148428-1112403433=:35195 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Would you advise Dean Kamen to do so?

Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell mindspring.com> wrote:
Until someone builds a substantial number of these things for several billion dollars, we will not know the final cost, and we will not be able to judge how well they can compete with conventional energy and wind power.

Yahoo! Messenger
Show us what our next emoticon should look like. Join the fun. --0-932148428-1112403433=:35195-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 1 17:57:33 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j321vMUc013742; Fri, 1 Apr 2005 17:57:23 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j321vEYf013704; Fri, 1 Apr 2005 17:57:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 17:57:14 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <3rrac5$s35lej mxip19a.cluster1.charter.net> X-Ironport-AV: i="3.91,142,1110171600"; d="scan'208"; a="942855635:sNHT13198396" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.12 (webedge20-101-197-20030912) From: To: CC: Subject: Re: difference in world views Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 1:57:06 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58868 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hello Thomas, Hello Leak, Like many in Vortex-l I read your recent comments. It's not clear to me whether the two of you were having a private debate, a discussion that eventually blundered its way into the public annals of vortex or not. I will only suggest that, in my view, it is a serious breach of trust between two individuals when private conversations suddenly find their way into a public forum without mutual prior consent. I'm not sure if this really happened between the two of you or not, but I have my concerns. To Leak: I personally don't think Thomas is delusional even though I could understand why you might think so. To Thomas: Your views have been quite an educational experience for me. I continue to thank you giving me this precious and unique opportunity to acquire a better understanding of your perception of reality. I have a brief comment. You recently stated: >As a continuation of the will of god thread, I sent >Leaking Pen a three page discussion on the differences >in world views of liberals and conservatives. I'm >rather proud of my writing, and would be pleased to >forward it to any Vortexians who are interested." Pride is unbecoming of you. I would have thought that your religion would have already brought this sin to your attention: See http://deadlysins.com/sins/ But more to the point, Thomas, who are you really trying to convince? Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 1 19:27:48 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j323RfUc015488; Fri, 1 Apr 2005 19:27:42 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j323Rb9k015458; Fri, 1 Apr 2005 19:27:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 19:27:37 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: <7fc36319-fe49-4d65-b4f1-336d16f5e940> Message-ID: <36ff01c53733$e2fe17d0$a27accd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <3spcf3$5bbrge mxip04a.cluster1.charter.net> Subject: Re: The BIG DEAL Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 22:26:38 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58869 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The claim made for the solar concentrator-Stirling array is that the Stirling engine is more efficient than PV cells, which top out at about 25%, with fairly elaborate construction. Presumeably the tracking systems can be had for modest cost in large quantity. In previous studies of this configuration the cost of individual trackers has been so high as to make large scale deployment uneconomical. There have been other configurations, like a boiler on a tower surrounded by a large array of tracking mirrors focusing energy on the boiler. A lot of work has gone in afocal concentrators to work with PV cells as well. The energy is there. But note that the system is designed so that at night the mirrors turn downward so the Stirling engines are near ground level for maintenance. Converting the ouput of the thousands of individual generators into phase-locked 60 Hz is an ambitious effort but well within the current electrical engineering technology. Although I'm an EE, I'm not going to speculalte on the best way to do this without a lot more information. Jed is right, that it is not wise to concentrate the whole system in one place for any number of reasons. The scale of the project in terms of numbers and areas is big when you look at it in one piece, but is essentially doable. Others have pointed out that if you could make the US highway system into a PV solar collector, there would be plenty of power for everyone. Or of you put it in the Arizona desert. All the solar systems have to be cleaned, and a vulnerable wot weather and damage from storms, in comparison with a hydroelectric dam. As for storage, there are many systeems available. In some places, already power plants pump water into an elevated resivoir in off peak periods, to use to cover peaks. Flywheel storage is effective under certain conditions, as well as advanced batteries, etc. It is not a question of if it can be done, it can, but under what circumstances is it cost effective and will people buy it, at what price? In the US we are not accustomed to economizing, as are people elsewhere; there is a tendency to confuse the ability to waste with wealth and power. My wife and I live in a metropolitan suburban neighborhood. She is a professional musician whose engagement are often distant and away from public transportation. Personl, on-demand mobility is essential. One regular engagement is 50 miles away. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 1 21:26:38 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j325QYYf023577; Fri, 1 Apr 2005 21:26:34 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j325QKSH023499; Fri, 1 Apr 2005 21:26:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 21:26:20 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=j0ORBYBrE9EX809+UfntfI2oGJotCYa1e6RKTkHrRv5DwS5Y6tz6Ek5epgVJyPjgr77vxdvaOqf1Bz7CkQ6o1DVbHMl4HDhQ2nz6cSTNfMN2apx48CkrAYh5kMrsYZ2HoYRf/JrnFoPcpim95CFRzqmN2KOjI/wFKqYYXanUUlY= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 22:26:06 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: difference in world views In-Reply-To: <20050401225627.97612.qmail web51701.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 References: <20050401225627.97612.qmail web51701.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j325Q6Yf023435 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58870 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: hehehheee. ohh man, you have me giggling. one thing two, ive got a friend who i found out we are related in several different ways, and we are almost identical, from build to attitude to finger length. different faces, but hey. and we smell the same too, except that he gives off an odor that seems to turn women on at times. well, in a relationship, he discovered that said odor came from the tip of his penis. im cut, hes not. so, another reason not to. (bastard) On Apr 1, 2005 3:56 PM, Terry Blanton wrote: > You ever ask for a BJ when you have smegma? > > Ackshully, autostimulation in males is enhanced with an intact prepuce, the > likely reason for the 'covenant'. > > Comandment #611, "Thoushaltnot speweee thy peckersnot 'pongaia." > > "Stephen A. Lawrence" wrote: > There is no _medical_ reason > for circumcision > > ________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! > > -- "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 1 21:29:50 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j325TfYf025154; Fri, 1 Apr 2005 21:29:42 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j325Teut025145; Fri, 1 Apr 2005 21:29:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 21:29:40 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=VQssMYS8m/QSie0fw3qj7NiGagst+vuP/pNDwwe8aBGzHeNLU0lhEh0hUD6M19XXOoFSvQw3+Leco8ExEpnddo/ARuwvcPIP4/aGFf5AVepM+IL+vRag5cTGWiGiVefdhk7t7AWwLf6Pwnj2vWfe31CXmu39n21RfbtxuUIKkMQ= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 22:29:27 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: difference in world views In-Reply-To: <3rrac5$s35lej mxip19a.cluster1.charter.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 References: <3rrac5$s35lej mxip19a.cluster1.charter.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j325TRYf025067 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58871 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: let me clarify. i dont belive in delusion. your personal reality is how you perceive things, therefore delusion is impossible. but hed be classified that way by a shrink. i mean, he thinks that the majority of liberals are rich college students who think all conservatives are backwoods rednecks. when, go figure, 60 percent of liberals earn less than 20k a year, usually in blue collar jobs, compared to about 40 percent of conservatives. and the average income of registered repubs is about triple the average income of registered dems. his speech is full of simple falsehood like that. and the racism was a bit much as well. On Apr 1, 2005 6:57 PM, orionworks charter.net wrote: > Hello Thomas, > Hello Leak, > > Like many in Vortex-l I read your recent comments. It's not clear to me whether the two of you were having a private debate, a discussion that eventually blundered its way into the public annals of vortex or not. I will only suggest that, in my view, it is a serious breach of trust between two individuals when private conversations suddenly find their way into a public forum without mutual prior consent. I'm not sure if this really happened between the two of you or not, but I have my concerns. > > To Leak: > > I personally don't think Thomas is delusional even though I could understand why you might think so. > > To Thomas: > > Your views have been quite an educational experience for me. I continue to thank you giving me this precious and unique opportunity to acquire a better understanding of your perception of reality. > > I have a brief comment. > > You recently stated: > > >As a continuation of the will of god thread, I sent > >Leaking Pen a three page discussion on the differences > >in world views of liberals and conservatives. I'm > >rather proud of my writing, and would be pleased to > >forward it to any Vortexians who are interested." > > Pride is unbecoming of you. I would have thought that your religion would have already brought this sin to your attention: > > See http://deadlysins.com/sins/ > > But more to the point, Thomas, who are you really trying to convince? > > Regards, > > Steven Vincent Johnson > OrionWorks.com > > -- "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 2 03:02:58 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j32B2pIV008067; Sat, 2 Apr 2005 03:02:55 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j32B2kcP008042; Sat, 2 Apr 2005 03:02:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 03:02:46 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <006b01c53772$177a2f10$0600a8c0 nixlaptop> From: "Nick Palmer" To: "Vortex-L" Subject: Plug in Prius Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 11:52:33 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0067_01C5377A.74A16840"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58872 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0067_01C5377A.74A16840 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0068_01C5377A.74A16840" ------=_NextPart_001_0068_01C5377A.74A16840 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Taken from the online New York Times -------------------------------------------------------------------------= -------------------------------------------------------------------------= --------- Hybrid-Car Tinkerers Scoff at No-Plug-In Rule By DANNY HAKIM=20 Published: April 2, 2005 ETROIT, April 1 - Ron Gremban and Felix Kramer have modified a Toyota = Prius so it can be plugged into a wall outlet.=20 This does not make Toyota happy. The company has spent millions of = dollars persuading people that hybrid electric cars like the Prius never = need to be plugged in and work just like normal cars. So has Honda, = which even ran a commercial that showed a guy wandering around his Civic = hybrid fruitlessly searching for a plug.=20 But the idea of making hybrid cars that have the option of being plugged = in is supported by a diverse group of interests, from neoconservatives = who support greater fuel efficiency to utilities salivating at the = chance to supplant oil with electricity. If you were able to plug a = hybrid in overnight, you could potentially use a lot less gas by = cruising for long stretches on battery power only. But unlike purely = electric cars, which take hours to charge and need frequent recharging, = you would not have to plug in if you did not want to.=20 "I've gotten anywhere from 65 to over 100 miles per gallon," said Mr. = Gremban, an engineer at CalCars, a small nonprofit group based in Palo = Alto, Calif. He gets 40 to 45 miles per gallon driving his normal Prius. = And EnergyCS, a small company that has collaborated with CalCars, has = modified another Prius with more sophisticated batteries; they claim = their Prius gets up to 180 m.p.g. and can travel more than 30 miles on = battery power.=20 "If you cover people's daily commute, maybe they'll go to the gas = station once a month," said Mr. Kramer, the founder of CalCars. "That's = the whole idea." Conventional hybrid electric cars already save gas. But if one looks at = growth projections for oil consumption, hybrids will slow the growth = rate of oil imports only marginally, at best, with the amount depending = on how many hybrids are sold. To actually stop the growth of oil imports = and potentially even reduce consumption, automakers have focused on = developing cars powered by hydrogen fuel cells.=20 But fuel cells would require a complete reinvention of the automobile, = not to mention the nation's gas stations, and the technology to put them = on the road is still a long way from fruition. Advocates of plug-in = hybrids say the technology for these vehicles is available now to the = point that people are building them in garages.=20 "All of the relevant technology is at hand," said Frank Gaffney, founder = of the Center for Security Policy and an assistant defense secretary in = the Reagan administration. His group was among a coalition of = right-leaning organizations that released an energy plan this year = promoting plug-ins as one way to increase fuel efficiency in light of = the instability of the Middle East.=20 "If you're thinking about this as an environmental issue first and = foremost, you're missing the point," Mr. Gaffney said. Curbing = dependence on foreign oil, he added, "is a national security emergency." = Toyota, however, says the plug-in is not ready for prime time.=20 "They say this is the next great thing, but it just isn't," said David = Hermance, an executive engineer at Toyota. "The electric utilities = really want to sell electricity and they want to sell it to the = transportation sector because that expands their market. They have an = agenda." But the plug-in hybrid is not just coming out of the garages of = enthusiasts in California. DaimlerChrysler has developed several dozen = plug-in hybrid vans in cooperation with the Electric Power Research = Institute, a group financed by more than 300 utilities, including the = New York Power Authority and Southern California Edison. Testing of the = vans will start this year, and one will be used by The New York Times on = a newspaper delivery route in Manhattan. Several small companies are = also developing or have developed plug-in hybrid prototypes.=20 "We think it's the only way to rekindle interest in electric = transportation," said Robert Graham, who manages research into electric = vehicles for the Research Institute. "There are no technology hurdles at = all. It's simply a matter of getting the vehicle built out on the street = and getting people to recognize its value." For power companies, the notion of people plugging in cars overnight = represents not only a new way to make money, but the vehicles would also = draw power mostly during off hours which would improve efficiency, = because power plants cannot simply shut down at night as demand = diminishes.=20 As it stands, though, modifying a hybrid like the Prius to enable it to = plug in would add perhaps $2,000 to $3,000 to the cost of a car that is = already roughly $3,000 more expensive than conventional gas cars. = Advocates say the costs would be much lower if such cars were = mass-produced by a major automaker.=20 But Nick Cappa, a spokesman for DaimlerChrysler, was cautious, calling = the technology one of many the company was exploring. Among its current = drawbacks is that the added batteries take up space and make the = company's Sprinter van several hundred pounds heavier.=20 "This is part of a small program investigating these technologies," Mr. = Cappa said.=20 And Mr. Hermance of Toyota said that batteries today were not durable = enough to handle the wide range of charging up and charging down that a = plug-in hybrid would need, calling that the most damaging thing you can = do to a battery. Edward Furia, the chief executive of AFS Trinity Power, a privately held = company in Bellevue, Wash., that develops mechanical batteries called = flywheels, agreed with Mr. Hermance, but said that a secondary energy = storage technology like a flywheel could solve the problem. "If you've got a flywheel with your chemical battery, you can draw down = the chemical battery, but when it's time to do a heavy lift, to = accelerate or absorb energy, the flywheel is doing the acceleration or = the absorption, not the chemical battery," said Mr. Furia, whose company = is developing its own plug-in hybrid that it says will get several = hundred miles per gallon.=20 While many environmentalists support the technology, some say in terms = of emissions, electric cars would only be as good as the power plants = that produce electricity.=20 "The concern on plug-in hybrids is that we not substitute addiction to = one polluting fuel for addiction to a more polluting fuel," said Dan = Becker, the head of the Sierra Club's global warming and energy program. = "Coal is more polluting than gasoline, and nearly 60 percent of U.S. = electricity is generated by burning coal." Roger Duncan, a deputy general manager of Austin Energy, a utility owned = by the City of Austin, Tex., said that "it's hard to say what impact it = will have on the nation as a whole," but that in regions that use = cleaner-than-average power sources, like Austin or California, it would = provide a clear emissions benefit. Mr. Duncan even imagines a day when = drivers could be paid to return energy to the grid during times of = excessive demand.=20 Plug-in hybrid prototypes have been around for several years, but the = idea of modifying a Prius stemmed from the curiosity of some Prius = owners in the United States, Mr. Kramer said. They were aroused by a = mysterious unmarked button on their Prius and discovered that in Priuses = sold in Europe and Japan, the button allows the car to drive for a mile = in electric-only mode. Mr. Hermance said the feature was disabled in = Priuses sold in the United States because of complications it would have = created in emissions-testing rules.=20 Mr. Kramer said "a bunch of engineers reverse-engineered it in the = United States and figured out how to hack it." But they soon wanted to travel on batteries for more than a mile and = began to collaborate through CalCars on adding batteries to the Prius = that would allow for longer pure electric travel. With the help of = dozens of volunteer engineers collaborating online, the group = retrofitted a Prius in Mr. Gremban's garage to travel about 10 miles on = nothing but battery power. Mr. Duncan said the plug-in hybrid was "very realistic, because it's not = that big a leap in technology." "Look what Felix has done with Prius off the street," he added. "This = isn't rocket science." ------=_NextPart_001_0068_01C5377A.74A16840 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Taken from the online New York Times

----------------------------------------------------------------= -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------------------

 

Hybrid-Car Tinkerers Scoff at No-Plug-In = Rule

By DANNY=20 HAKIM
3D""=20
Published: April 2, 2005

3DDETROIT, April 1 - Ron Gremban and = Felix Kramer have=20 modified a Toyota Prius so it can be plugged into a wall outlet.

This does not make Toyota=20 happy. The company has spent millions of dollars persuading people that = hybrid=20 electric cars like the Prius never need to be plugged in and work just = like=20 normal cars. So has Honda,=20 which even ran a commercial that showed a guy wandering around his Civic = hybrid=20 fruitlessly searching for a plug.

But the idea of making hybrid cars that have the option of being = plugged in=20 is supported by a diverse group of interests, from neoconservatives who = support=20 greater fuel efficiency to utilities salivating at the chance to = supplant oil=20 with electricity. If you were able to plug a hybrid in overnight, you = could=20 potentially use a lot less gas by cruising for long stretches on battery = power=20 only. But unlike purely electric cars, which take hours to charge and = need=20 frequent recharging, you would not have to plug in if you did not want = to.

"I've gotten anywhere from 65 to over 100 miles per gallon," said Mr. = Gremban, an engineer at CalCars, a small nonprofit group based in Palo = Alto,=20 Calif. He gets 40 to 45 miles per gallon driving his normal Prius. And = EnergyCS,=20 a small company that has collaborated with CalCars, has modified another = Prius=20 with more sophisticated batteries; they claim their Prius gets up to 180 = m.p.g.=20 and can travel more than 30 miles on battery power.

"If you cover people's daily commute, maybe they'll go to the gas = station=20 once a month," said Mr. Kramer, the founder of CalCars. "That's the = whole=20 idea."

Conventional hybrid electric cars already save gas. But if one looks = at=20 growth projections for oil consumption, hybrids will slow the growth = rate of oil=20 imports only marginally, at best, with the amount depending on how many = hybrids=20 are sold. To actually stop the growth of oil imports and potentially = even reduce=20 consumption, automakers have focused on developing cars powered by = hydrogen fuel=20 cells.

But fuel cells would require a complete reinvention of the = automobile, not to=20 mention the nation's gas stations, and the technology to put them on the = road is=20 still a long way from fruition. Advocates of plug-in hybrids say the = technology=20 for these vehicles is available now to the point that people are = building them=20 in garages.

"All of the relevant technology is at hand," said Frank Gaffney, = founder of=20 the Center for Security Policy and an assistant defense secretary in the = Reagan=20 administration. His group was among a coalition of right-leaning = organizations=20 that released an energy plan this year promoting plug-ins as one way to = increase=20 fuel efficiency in light of the instability of the Middle East.

"If you're thinking about this as an environmental issue first and = foremost,=20 you're missing the point," Mr. Gaffney said. Curbing dependence on = foreign oil,=20 he added, "is a national security emergency."

Toyota, however, says the plug-in is not ready for prime time.

"They say this is the next great thing, but it just isn't," said = David=20 Hermance, an executive engineer at Toyota. "The electric utilities = really want=20 to sell electricity and they want to sell it to the transportation = sector=20 because that expands their market. They have an agenda."

But the plug-in hybrid is not just coming out of the garages of = enthusiasts=20 in California. DaimlerChrysler=20 has developed several dozen plug-in hybrid vans in cooperation with the = Electric=20 Power Research Institute, a group financed by more than 300 utilities, = including=20 the New York Power Authority and Southern=20 California Edison. Testing of the vans will start this year, and one = will be=20 used by The New=20 York Times on a newspaper delivery route in Manhattan. Several small = companies are also developing or have developed plug-in hybrid = prototypes.

"We think it's the only way to rekindle interest in electric = transportation,"=20 said Robert Graham, who manages research into electric vehicles for the = Research=20 Institute. "There are no technology hurdles at all. It's simply a matter = of=20 getting the vehicle built out on the street and getting people to = recognize its=20 value."

For power companies, the notion of people plugging in cars overnight=20 represents not only a new way to make money, but the vehicles would also = draw=20 power mostly during off hours which would improve efficiency, because = power=20 plants cannot simply shut down at night as demand diminishes.

As it stands, though, modifying a hybrid like the Prius to enable it = to plug=20 in would add perhaps $2,000 to $3,000 to the cost of a car that is = already=20 roughly $3,000 more expensive than conventional gas cars. Advocates say = the=20 costs would be much lower if such cars were mass-produced by a major = automaker.=20

But Nick Cappa, a spokesman for DaimlerChrysler, was cautious, = calling the=20 technology one of many the company was exploring. Among its current = drawbacks is=20 that the added batteries take up space and make the company's Sprinter = van=20 several hundred pounds heavier.

"This is part of a small program investigating these technologies," = Mr. Cappa=20 said.

And Mr. Hermance of Toyota said that batteries today were not durable = enough=20 to handle the wide range of charging up and charging down that a plug-in = hybrid=20 would need, calling that the most damaging thing you can do to a = battery.

Edward Furia, the chief executive of AFS Trinity Power, a privately = held=20 company in Bellevue, Wash., that develops mechanical batteries called = flywheels,=20 agreed with Mr. Hermance, but said that a secondary energy storage = technology=20 like a flywheel could solve the problem.

"If you've got a flywheel with your chemical battery, you can draw = down the=20 chemical battery, but when it's time to do a heavy lift, to accelerate = or absorb=20 energy, the flywheel is doing the acceleration or the absorption, not = the=20 chemical battery," said Mr. Furia, whose company is developing its own = plug-in=20 hybrid that it says will get several hundred miles per gallon.

While many environmentalists support the technology, some say in = terms of=20 emissions, electric cars would only be as good as the power plants that = produce=20 electricity.

"The concern on plug-in hybrids is that we not substitute addiction = to one=20 polluting fuel for addiction to a more polluting fuel," said Dan Becker, = the=20 head of the Sierra Club's global warming and energy program. "Coal is = more=20 polluting than gasoline, and nearly 60 percent of U.S. electricity is = generated=20 by burning coal."

Roger Duncan, a deputy general manager of Austin Energy, a utility = owned by=20 the City of Austin, Tex., said that "it's hard to say what impact it = will have=20 on the nation as a whole," but that in regions that use = cleaner-than-average=20 power sources, like Austin or California, it would provide a clear = emissions=20 benefit. Mr. Duncan even imagines a day when drivers could be paid to = return=20 energy to the grid during times of excessive demand.

Plug-in hybrid prototypes have been around for several years, but the = idea of=20 modifying a Prius stemmed from the curiosity of some Prius owners in the = United=20 States, Mr. Kramer said. They were aroused by a mysterious unmarked = button on=20 their Prius and discovered that in Priuses sold in Europe and Japan, the = button=20 allows the car to drive for a mile in electric-only mode. Mr. Hermance = said the=20 feature was disabled in Priuses sold in the United States because of=20 complications it would have created in emissions-testing rules.

Mr. Kramer said "a bunch of engineers reverse-engineered it in the = United=20 States and figured out how to hack it."

But they soon wanted to travel on batteries for more than a mile and = began to=20 collaborate through CalCars on adding batteries to the Prius that would = allow=20 for longer pure electric travel. With the help of dozens of volunteer = engineers=20 collaborating online, the group retrofitted a Prius in Mr. Gremban's = garage to=20 travel about 10 miles on nothing but battery power.

Mr. Duncan said the plug-in hybrid was "very realistic, because it's = not that=20 big a leap in technology."

"Look what Felix has done with Prius off the street," he added. "This = isn't=20 rocket science."

 

------=_NextPart_001_0068_01C5377A.74A16840-- ------=_NextPart_000_0067_01C5377A.74A16840 Content-Type: image/gif; name="spacer.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Location: http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/misc/spacer.gif R0lGODlhBQAFAIAAAMDAwAAAACH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAAFAAUAAAIEhI+pWAA7 ------=_NextPart_000_0067_01C5377A.74A16840 Content-Type: image/gif; name="d.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Location: http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/dropcap/d.gif R0lGODlhHgAhAMQAAP/////v7/fe3u/Ozu+9veetrd6cnN6MjNaEhM5zc85jY8ZSUr1CQr0xMbUh Ia0QEK0AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACH5BAEA AAAALAAAAAAeACEAQAW1ICGOJBkAaKquUOu6xIq8NGSkNbymR96iPkhs1fM1cEGag4EY7FjJqG0X HO4evgXQZ101fIytNNkFjHOI0/McdSJzZRQj6K4+ATOfuBZH5XN7NH0FQQeBLwoIinNJYW9sLgwC a2wNCQV3j5AQD32bOTcqhSMJDkkOolw7RTmohzo7BIWvLX0AC2C0Qnd/Nbq2vTS/vEHDT1g5CsYr jDmTZqopAQlJodCfLw/PumMPbqmbDtY7IQA7 ------=_NextPart_000_0067_01C5377A.74A16840-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 2 04:25:18 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j32CP6IV003637; Sat, 2 Apr 2005 04:25:07 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j32CP4I1003612; Sat, 2 Apr 2005 04:25:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 04:25:04 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=Z1OuLr9gUEep2ZNj1IGmbohByLDzVF+0aqcPnV+fT+cEHpo8upnuxyUzOw/x7Ecq; Message-ID: <410-2200546211259910 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Food For Thought Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 05:25:09 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940e8906fe8e26cceab45e0ebab320a662f350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.117.232 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58873 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Clarence Darrow on Crime. Circa 1900. http://www.chilit.org/PARKHST4.HTM "If every man and woman and child in the world had a chance to make a decent, fair, honest living, there would be no jails and no lawyers and no courts. There might be some persons here or there with some peculiar formation of their brain, like Rockefeller, who would do these things simply to be doing them; but they would be very few, and those should be sent to a hospital and treated, and not sent to jail. Nine - tenths of you who got caught are in jail because you did not have a good lawyer and, of course, you did not have a good lawyer because you did not have enough money to pay a good lawyer. There is no very great danger of a rich man going to jail. " ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Clarence Darrow on Crime.  Circa 1900.
 

http://www.chilit.org/PARKHST4.HTM

"If every man and woman and child in the world had a chance to make a decent, fair, honest living, there would be no jails and no lawyers and no courts. There might be some persons here or there with some peculiar formation of their brain, like Rockefeller, who would do these things simply to be doing them; but they would be very few, and those should be sent to a hospital and treated, and not sent to jail. Nine - tenths of you who got caught are in jail because you did not have a good lawyer and, of course, you did not have a good lawyer because you did not have enough money to pay a good lawyer. There is no very great danger of a rich man going to jail. "

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 2 09:10:42 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j32HAXIV022367; Sat, 2 Apr 2005 09:10:33 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j32HANGk022305; Sat, 2 Apr 2005 09:10:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 09:10:23 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 08:11:42 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Plug in Prius Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58874 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 11:52 AM 4/2/5, Nick Palmer wrote: >Taken from the online New York Times [snip] >But they soon wanted to travel on batteries for more than a mile and began >to collaborate through CalCars on adding batteries to the Prius that would >allow for longer pure electric travel. With the help of dozens of >volunteer engineers collaborating online, the group retrofitted a Prius in >Mr. Gremban's garage to travel about 10 miles on nothing but battery >power. In sunny places like California adding some solar power may eventually add some useful flat-territory cruise range, or just help cover the charge cost for the 10 mile return home commute. If using a 90 percent efficient electric power sytem, a 60 mpg car would be able to cruise on about 8 kw. If a 2 m^2 solar array is deployed for 8 hours while parking at work, and if it is 30 percent efficient, it could (ideally) store about 4.8 kWh, enough to cruise for about 1/2 hour, or 30 miles. Even with lower efficiencies immediately available, on a sunny day at least half a daily 10 mile return commute would not require any gas at all. A problem with this idea is that a foldable solar array would be vulnerable to theft. If the array were built into the car roof and hood it might cause the car to be hot. Maybe an air gap under the array plus an insulated roof would help some. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 2 09:25:39 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j32HPPIV028766; Sat, 2 Apr 2005 09:25:25 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j32HPN4G028735; Sat, 2 Apr 2005 09:25:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 09:25:23 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <424ED618.1060900 ix.netcom.com> Date: Sat, 02 Apr 2005 10:27:52 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex Subject: another off topic subject Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58875 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Since science discussion on Vortex is experiencing a holiday these days and because the world is decaying into chaos faster than science can repair the problems, I thought some of you might like another view of the situation, as provided by Scott Ritter. Ritter was one of the few people who was correct about Iraq, hence is worth leaning from. Many people voted for Bush without looking any deeper than that he is a Christian who shared their basic attitude. Apparently, Bush was only the front man for a more sinister agenda that is now being put into place. How else can the appointments made by Bush make any sense? People who lied, who argued against known facts, and who were wrong have been rewarded while people who told the truth have been demoted. Accountability has ceased to function in the government while the ideologies prevail. Regards, Ed Scott Ritter: Neocons as Parasites By Larisa Alexandrovna Raw Story Friday 01 April 2005 Congressional Catch-22. Larisa Alexandrovna: Paul Wolfowitz stated prior to the Iraq invasion that Iraqi reconstruction would pay for itself. It seems that Mr. Wolfowitz, now charged with handling the World Bank, miscalculated. *What is going on with the oil in Iraq? Scott Ritter: Paul Wolfowitz was a salesman; his job was to sell a war.He acknowledged this in an interview with Vanity Fair magazine, in which he acknowledged that WMDs and the threat they posed, was nothing more than a vehicle to sell this war to America. Now you [get] to the war itself and selling it to Congress and [the] questions: How long will this take? Or how much will this cost? Paul Wolfowitz lied to Congress about the costs of war. There is not a responsible member of government who thought this would be quick and cheap. There was nobody who believed that Iraq oil would pay for itself, no one in the oil business thought so. *What about oil companies, were they for the war or against it? No oil professional in their right mind would support what is happening in Iraq. This isn't part of a grand 'oil' strategy; it is simply pure unadulterated incompetence. *So they are concerned about their bottom lines, and chaos doesn't forward that goal. Right. Oil company executives are businessmen and they are in a business that requires long-term stability. They love dictators because they bring with them long-term stability. They don't like new democracies because they are messy and unstable. I have not run into a major oil company that is willing to refurbish the Iraq oil fields and invest in oil field exploration and development. These are multi-billion dollar investments that, in order to be profitable, must be played out over decades. And in Iraq today you cannot speak out to projecting any stability in the near to mid-future. *OK, so now to Congress. They approved the war. I know we have discussed the post-9/11 reality and the pressure of not seeming unpatriotic. Yes, but they also approved the war because Congress had been locked into a corner by the neocons in 1998. Our policy in Iraq since 1991 has been regime change. How many times did G. H. W. Bush have to say 'we will not remove sanctions until Saddam is removed from power?' Bill Clinton inherited this policy of regime change, but the Bush policy was not an active policy, it was a passive policy to strangle, as it were, Saddam. It was not our policy to take him out through military strength. Saddam, however, was able to out-maneuver this policy, he did not get weaker he got stronger. The neocons played on the political implications of this, to box the Clinton administration and Congress into a corner. When you declare Saddam to be a threat with WMDs and then do nothing, you have a political problem. The neocons played on this. In 1998, the Heritage Foundation, Paul Wolfowitz and the American Enterprise Institute basically drafted legislation [that] became the Iraq Liberation Act. This is public law. So when people ask why did Congress vote for the current war in Iraq, it is simply that they had already voted for it in 1998, they were trapped by their own vote. *So your implication is that in our current foreign policy the neocons have set the tone via thinktanks or supposed thinktanks? Yes. Look at who funds the American Enterprise Institute, and the Heritage Foundation, and I think you'll have your answer. The American Heritage Leninist What do you think these institutions are trying to achieve? I know the public claim is conservative values, but there is a some speculation regarding what appears more like Leninist, even Trotskyite values, especially given the current domestic government involvement and control or attempt at control of almost every facet of society, economy, family, etc. Even the term 'Leninist' was used by the Heritage Foundation to describe their approach to Social Security during the 1980s. A high-level source, a neocon at that, within the system has said to me directly that 'John Bolton's job is to destroy the UN, Rice's job is to destroy the State Department and replace it with a vehicle of facilitation for making the Pentagon's national security policy.' *And what of Karen Hughes' appointment? Hughes - she is a salesperson; she will sell the policy. She is irrelevant. She is nothing. Her appointment means nothing. Rice has already capitulated to the Pentagon and the White House, and Hughes' appointment is but a manifestation of that larger reality. The neocons are parasites. They build nothing. They bring nothing. They don't have a foundation. They don't stand for business. They don't stand for ideology. They use a host to facilitate and grow their own power. They are parasites that latch onto oil until it is no longer convenient. They latch on to democracy until it is no longer convenient. Rice's appointment to the State Department is simply to reshape it into a neocon vehicle. *Why the State Department? Why Rice? The State Department still has free thinkers in it. Rice is a dilettante. Anyone who was there during the Reagan era and her advising on Soviet policy knows how inept she is. She is not there because she is a brilliant secretary of state. The media has bought into this, because the neocons cleverly put a woman an African-American woman at that, into this position. So when Rice goes abroad, people do not look at the stupid things she says, they look at what she was wearing and such. 'Godless people who want power, nothing more'. *So you believe the neocons are elitist parasites? Yes, elitism is the perfect term. *Do you consider it localized or global elitism? The neocons believe in what they think is a noble truth, power of the few, the select few. These are godless people who want power, nothing more. They do not have a country or an allegiance, they have an agenda. These people might hold American passports, but they are not Americans because they do not believe in the Constitution. They believe in the power of the few, not a government for or by the people. They are a few and their agenda is global. *You suggest the Republican Party is simply an organizational host. Is there any vestige left of the host or has the entire party been devoured? The Republicans have been neutered by the neocons. *Your concept of neocons seems confusing because, using your host/parasite paradigm, they cannot tell between the host and the parasite which invades it. I know people who have worked for George H. W. Bush, both when he was vice president and president. Bush Sr. called the neocons the 'crazies in the basement.' I think it is dangerous to confuse the two, because there are Americans who love their country and are conservatives who do not support what is going on. Until the host rejects the parasite, it is difficult to separate the two. Brent Scowcroft for example is not a neocon, yet people call him one. Scowcroft worked hard to reign in the 'crazies in the basement' as did Reagan. Many have defined the neocon movement based on the highly intellectual, albeit warped, musings of Strauss and Bloom. Yet one could hardly call the current leadership intellectual or even capable of digesting this philosophy. Even neocon thinkers are jumping off the ship. *Do you believe this is simply trickle-down Machiavellianism in much the same way that Communism trickled down as an aberration of its original intent? No plan survives initial contact with the enemy. The neocon ideology was always hypothetical in its pure application until now. What we are seeing today is what happens when theory (bad theory at that) makes contact with reality. You get chaos, through which the neocons are now trying to navigate *Is Karl Rove a neocon? Karl Rove is not part of the neo-conservative master group; he is a host *Then who is steering the ship? An oligarchy of 'public servant' classes who are drawn from business, and serve naked economic interests. This is true whether you are Democrat or Republican. *Several insiders have expressed concern over possible oil shortage riots Would the Patriot Act be put to use, in your opinion, to address such riots? The Patriot Act is simply the neocons putting their judicial agenda in place by other means. It was a compilation of all of the conservative initiatives, not neocon initiatives, which the conservative Republicans have been pushing for, including a more conservative law enforcement element. This is not unhealthy as long is it is done properly, through legislation, proper channels of debate and discourse. A lot of this had been submitted in the past, but was rejected. After 9/11 all of these initiatives were lumped together. There are some things in the Patriot Act I agree with, but the Patriot Act requires a responsible society. The neocons have no interest in a responsible society; they simply used the conservatives as a vehicle to push an agenda to assault individual civil liberties. As the Patriot Act is now, how it came about, is entirely un-American. It is extreme legislation that does nothing to address the issues it professes to, but moreover, it is, as an existing law, un-American. What makes it un-American is that no one read it before they voted for it. So the process was un-American, and the motivation behind it was un-American. We cannot have a nation that is governed by fear. The Patriot Act is un-American simply because it exists. *So how do citizens address this situation since the very means of addressing it via Congress seem to have been closed off? Congress has ceased to function as a viable tool of government. What is needed is for leaders of honor to resign in protest. I have had this conversation with some in Congress and have asked about their thoughts on shutting down Congress and cleaning house. Their counter is that they are afraid to 'leave the crazies in control.' They are already in control. If the people want to heal this country, the people have to purge the failing of this country. Vote them out. It might take two or three cycles, but it will happen and it will take time. Everyone who voted for the war in Iraq should be voted out of office because it violated article six of the Constitution. Everyone who voted for the Patriot Act needs to go because they did not represent the people by voting on legislation they did not read. They have to go, regardless of party. They have through their actions decided who stays and who goes. Hope, and worries, for the future *You suggest Americans vote out all who voted for these measures. If New Yorkers voted out Hillary, who voted for both the Patriot Act and the war in Iraq, and who is also leading the pack of the Democratic Party for the 2008 nomination, what then? Hillary is the manifestation of all that ails the Democratic Party. She stands for nothing. She has been compromised by her voting record ... how can she stand for anything worth supporting? And yet she will be the Democratic nominee in 2008, thus guaranteeing another neocon/Republican victory. 'Dump Hillary Now' would be the smartest move Dean could make as the new Democratic National Committee Chair. ... Like I said, it might take two or three cycles, but it will happen. *What about Dean? Dean has to be part of the process of rebuilding and that will take time Dean cannot run for president, because Dean cannot run as a Democrat - the party is not set up to sustain someone like him. He is one of the exceptions in a corrupt party. He is also not corrupted by his voting record. He is someone who represents something, he did not vote for the war in Iraq, for example. *We talked about this current social crisis as a closed loop during the second installment. Have you ever seen a loop like this throughout the history of the US? What does this mean? The American experiment is much too complex to be destroyed by the neocons. In the end, the neocons will lose. It may take ten to twelve more years, and the costs will be horrific, but America will survive. There will be one hell of a mess to clean up, though, after the fall of the neocons. *Where do you see America, should things continue as is, five years from now? At war, bankrupt morally and fiscally, and in great pain ... and only half-way through the nightmare. Ten to twelve years is what we will have to get through, but we will get through it. ------- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 2 09:29:45 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j32HTVIV032006; Sat, 2 Apr 2005 09:29:31 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j32HTQqq031971; Sat, 2 Apr 2005 09:29:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 09:29:26 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: "Vortex" Subject: RE: Food For Thought Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 12:30:40 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <410-2200546211259910 earthlink.net> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58876 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hey Fred, I'll see your Clarence Darrow, and raise you General Smedley Butler. http://www.veteransforpeace.org/war_is_a_racket_033103.htm Twice awarded the congressional medal of honor, General Butler ran for Senate as a Republican in 1932. Here's an excerpt from one of his speeches..... ********************* War is just a racket. A racket is best described, I believe, as something that is not what it seems to the majority of people. Only a small inside group knows what it is about. It is conducted for the benefit of the very few at the expense of the masses. . . . There isn't a trick in the racketeering bag that the military gang is blind to. It has its "finger men" to point out enemies, its "muscle men" to destroy enemies, its "brain men" to plan war preparations, and a "Big Boss" Super-Nationalistic-Capitalism. It may seem odd for me, a military man to adopt such a comparison. Truthfulness compels me to. I spent thirty- three years and four months in active military service as a member of this country's most agile military force, the Marine Corps. I served in all commissioned ranks from Second Lieutenant to Major-General. And during that period, I spent most of my time being a high class muscle- man for Big Business, for Wall Street and for the Bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism. I suspected I was just part of a racket at the time. Now I am sure of it. Like all the members of the military profession, I never had a thought of my own until I left the service. My mental faculties remained in suspended animation while I obeyed the orders of higher-ups. This is typical with everyone in the military service. I helped make Mexico, especially Tampico, safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefits of Wall Street. The record of racketeering is long. I helped purify Nicaragua for the international banking house of Brown Brothers in 1909-1912 (where have I heard that name before?). I brought light to the Dominican Republic for American sugar interests in 1916. In China I helped to see to it that Standard Oil went its way unmolested. During those years, I had, as the boys in the back room would say, a swell racket. Looking back on it, I feel that I could have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents. ************************** -----Original Message----- From: Frederick Sparber [mailto:fjsparber earthlink.net] Sent: Saturday, April 02, 2005 6:25 AM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Food For Thought Clarence Darrow on Crime. Circa 1900. http://www.chilit.org/PARKHST4.HTM "If every man and woman and child in the world had a chance to make a decent, fair, honest living, there would be no jails and no lawyers and no courts. There might be some persons here or there with some peculiar formation of their brain, like Rockefeller, who would do these things simply to be doing them; but they would be very few, and those should be sent to a hospital and treated, and not sent to jail. Nine - tenths of you who got caught are in jail because you did not have a good lawyer and, of course, you did not have a good lawyer because you did not have enough money to pay a good lawyer. There is no very great danger of a rich man going to jail. " From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 2 09:41:09 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j32Hf0IV004219; Sat, 2 Apr 2005 09:41:00 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j32HepBm004135; Sat, 2 Apr 2005 09:40:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 09:40:51 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-UNTD-OriginStamp: GUNT6dKCgH8aoKLPKyRSHtfMVDfuqRUMYzJPq4Wbkv0NVleYodfJoA== X-Originating-IP: [4.88.36.77] Mime-Version: 1.0 From: "gesrebspar juno.com" Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 17:39:47 GMT To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: another off topic subject X-Mailer: Juno Webmail Version 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Message-Id: <20050402.094028.12130.188770 webmail21.nyc.untd.com> X-ContentStamp: 2:3:3021791541 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58877 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The social security thing with Bush is a rous it is away of looking busy without doing anything. He knows congress won't let him so drasticly change the system. Like he knew the nation would never change the constitution for laws on gay marriage. Look people Im busy so says Gwb. ges From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 2 10:11:00 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j32IAmIV022149; Sat, 2 Apr 2005 10:10:49 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j32IAjPb022115; Sat, 2 Apr 2005 10:10:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 10:10:45 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <003801c537ae$fe1bd040$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: Subject: Re: Plug in Prius Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 10:08:36 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58878 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Horace Heffner" > In sunny places like California adding some solar power may eventually add some useful flat-territory cruise range, or just help cover the charge cost for the 10 mile return home commute. Yes. Most shopping trips, school drop-offs and even work commutes are shorter than 10 miles anyway. This is an excellent idea for a Prius-type hybrid (especially with the improved nano-tek batteries which have been announced). Given that a sunroof is already silicon dioxide anyway - and given that amorphous silicon is the way cheaper alternative (although not as efficient) to crystalline cells - and already the Chinese are starting to dominate by offering units at 25% of the cost of US made crystalline cells... http://www.alibaba.com/catalogs/52806/Solar_Cells_Solar_Panel.html Perhaps it won't be more than a few years before many normal sun-roofs are enlarged (like the two panel design of the Mini-Cooper which covers almost the entire vehicle roof) and then converted for solar power generation... the roof panels can be left slightly open to increase air circulation in the car and to limit the internal heating (w/ low-power exhaust fan also). One could imagine going many days or weeks with no resort to the gasoline engine - but it is very advantageous to have it there anyway. Maybe you could get by with a one-liter instead of 1.5 L engine, especially with the quick charge batteries? Jones BTW this recent surge in Chinese solar panel suppliers is a good sign, even for us ... and an indication of how they plan to limit their future dependence on fossil fuels. The government over there must have been actively pushing and giving incentives to get so many new companies started so soon (unlike here). By switching from crystalline to amorphous silicon, it seems clear that you must accept a drop in your conversion efficiency by 30-40% but your net cost goes down by 75-80%... so in effect you can double your "bang-for-the-buck"... sounds good to me. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 2 10:51:47 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j32IpbIV012900; Sat, 2 Apr 2005 10:51:37 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j32IpYDk012887; Sat, 2 Apr 2005 10:51:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 10:51:34 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <004401c537b4$b3371660$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <003801c537ae$fe1bd040$d0bcfea9@jonesb9pacbell> Subject: Re: Plug in Prius Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 10:49:27 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: <9XIxHB.A.UJD.2muTCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58879 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Addenda: I sent the wrong citation in the previous message, and in trying to fine the correct story about Chinese solar, I came across this very prescient bit of prognostication from the smart folks over at CalTech... only they were about 4 years too soon with their expected crisis date. http://mars3.gps.caltech.edu/whichworld/explore/china/chinatw_top.html OK, the bankers forecast last week is for $105 barrel oil, "real soon now", correct? Actually I hope so! Painful as it might be for a while... If following this warning sign, quicker implementation of solar-boosted Prius-type hybrids is forthcoming, and why not? - which is to be expected as a result of this unjustified (by-cost) spike in oil ... ...then, despite the short-term distress to immediate disposable incomes, the situation might end up being the *worst* thing that could happen, longer term, for OPEC... as... like the Dwarven races, the US consummmer is ultimately "Slow to anger and slow to forget," one hopes, at least, even though we seem to have forgotten the lesson of 1973 too fast... but maybe that is part of the "slow to anger" ;-) Anyway, $105/barrel oil in 2005 might end up leading directly to $20/barrel oil in 2010 should demand drop to that point that the US becomes self-sufficient... (Opec will still get richer at $20) Jones Remember the old BB King song, "You might 'a made your move too soon" ?: Three days of snow in Birmingham Thought you would wonder where I am Rang our number all night long It's no comfort on the telephone Ran out and caught a midnight flight Thought a little love would make everything all right The landlord said you moved away And left me all your bills to pay Look out baby, you might have made your move too soon... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 2 11:18:42 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j32JIaIV022002; Sat, 2 Apr 2005 11:18:37 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j32JITRp021964; Sat, 2 Apr 2005 11:18:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 11:18:29 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=fGZUAMIAazH5tgoYqkS76F8Fcicjcxx5uEDihXWdr+M6EWCJL2f2N5WLtNCIQ9R7vLco8yWdsKIuDjGlMqnWFgZo/5XlBOkGA4hvAJkO+IPD/nQRoCeHrWLi8CypI9HzV+YYbB2OIgaIdoDyubb1839/emrfCyrpqvJJC/ctMJA= Message-ID: Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 12:18:25 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: another off topic subject In-Reply-To: <424ED618.1060900 ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 References: <424ED618.1060900 ix.netcom.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j32JIPIV021933 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58880 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: one of the few? sorry, a good chunk of us knew just what was going on, and were quite vocal about it. On Apr 2, 2005 10:27 AM, Edmund Storms wrote: > Since science discussion on Vortex is experiencing a holiday these days > and because the world is decaying into chaos faster than science can > repair the problems, I thought some of you might like another view of > the situation, as provided by Scott Ritter. Ritter was one of the few > people who was correct about Iraq, hence is worth leaning from. Many > people voted for Bush without looking any deeper than that he is a > Christian who shared their basic attitude. Apparently, Bush was only the > front man for a more sinister agenda that is now being put into place. > How else can the appointments made by Bush make any sense? People who > lied, who argued against known facts, and who were wrong have been > rewarded while people who told the truth have been demoted. > Accountability has ceased to function in the government while the > ideologies prevail. > > Regards, > Ed > > Scott Ritter: Neocons as Parasites > By Larisa Alexandrovna > Raw Story > Friday 01 April 2005 > Congressional Catch-22. > Larisa Alexandrovna: Paul Wolfowitz stated prior to the Iraq > invasion that Iraqi reconstruction would pay for itself. It seems that > Mr. Wolfowitz, now charged with handling the World Bank, miscalculated. > > *What is going on with the oil in Iraq? > > Scott Ritter: Paul Wolfowitz was a salesman; his job was to sell a > war.He acknowledged this in an interview with Vanity Fair magazine, in > which he acknowledged that WMDs and the threat they posed, was nothing > more than a vehicle to sell this war to America. Now you [get] to the > war itself and selling it to Congress and [the] questions: How long will > this take? Or how much will this cost? Paul Wolfowitz lied to Congress > about the costs of war. There is not a responsible member of government > who thought this would be quick and cheap. There was nobody who believed > that Iraq oil would pay for itself, no one in the oil business thought so. > > *What about oil companies, were they for the war or against it? > > No oil professional in their right mind would support what is > happening in Iraq. This isn't part of a grand 'oil' strategy; it is > simply pure unadulterated incompetence. > > *So they are concerned about their bottom lines, and chaos doesn't > forward that goal. > > Right. Oil company executives are businessmen and they are in a > business that requires long-term stability. They love dictators because > they bring with them long-term stability. They don't like new > democracies because they are messy and unstable. I have not run into a > major oil company that is willing to refurbish the Iraq oil fields and > invest in oil field exploration and development. These are multi-billion > dollar investments that, in order to be profitable, must be played out > over decades. And in Iraq today you cannot speak out to projecting any > stability in the near to mid-future. > > *OK, so now to Congress. They approved the war. I know we have discussed > the post-9/11 reality and the pressure of not seeming unpatriotic. > > Yes, but they also approved the war because Congress had been locked > into a corner by the neocons in 1998. Our policy in Iraq since 1991 has > been regime change. How many times did G. H. W. Bush have to say 'we > will not remove sanctions until Saddam is removed from power?' Bill > Clinton inherited this policy of regime change, but the Bush policy was > not an active policy, it was a passive policy to strangle, as it were, > Saddam. It was not our policy to take him out through military strength. > Saddam, however, was able to out-maneuver this policy, he did not get > weaker he got stronger. The neocons played on the political implications > of this, to box the Clinton administration and Congress into a corner. > When you declare Saddam to be a threat with WMDs and then do > nothing, you have a political problem. The neocons played on this. In > 1998, the Heritage Foundation, Paul Wolfowitz and the American > Enterprise Institute basically drafted legislation [that] became the > Iraq Liberation Act. This is public law. So when people ask why did > Congress vote for the current war in Iraq, it is simply that they had > already voted for it in 1998, they were trapped by their own vote. > > *So your implication is that in our current foreign policy the neocons > have set the tone via thinktanks or supposed thinktanks? > > Yes. Look at who funds the American Enterprise Institute, and the > Heritage Foundation, and I think you'll have your answer. The American > Heritage Leninist What do you think these institutions are trying to > achieve? I know the public claim is conservative values, but there is a > some speculation regarding what appears more like Leninist, even > Trotskyite values, especially given the current domestic government > involvement and control or attempt at control of almost every facet of > society, economy, family, etc. Even the term 'Leninist' was used by the > Heritage Foundation to describe their approach to Social Security during > the 1980s. > A high-level source, a neocon at that, within the system has said > to me directly that 'John Bolton's job is to destroy the UN, Rice's job > is to destroy the State Department and replace it with a vehicle of > facilitation for making the Pentagon's national security policy.' > > *And what of Karen Hughes' appointment? > > Hughes - she is a salesperson; she will sell the policy. She is > irrelevant. She is nothing. Her appointment means nothing. Rice has > already capitulated to the Pentagon and the White House, and Hughes' > appointment is but a manifestation of that larger reality. > The neocons are parasites. They build nothing. They bring nothing. > They don't have a foundation. They don't stand for business. They don't > stand for ideology. They use a host to facilitate and grow their own > power. They are parasites that latch onto oil until it is no longer > convenient. They latch on to democracy until it is no longer convenient. > Rice's appointment to the State Department is simply to reshape it > into a neocon vehicle. > > *Why the State Department? Why Rice? > > The State Department still has free thinkers in it. Rice is a > dilettante. Anyone who was there during the Reagan era and her advising > on Soviet policy knows how inept she is. She is not there because she is > a brilliant secretary of state. > The media has bought into this, because the neocons cleverly put a > woman an African-American woman at that, into this position. So when > Rice goes abroad, people do not look at the stupid things she says, they > look at what she was wearing and such. 'Godless people who want power, > nothing more'. > > *So you believe the neocons are elitist parasites? > > Yes, elitism is the perfect term. > > *Do you consider it localized or global elitism? > > The neocons believe in what they think is a noble truth, power of > the few, the select few. These are godless people who want power, > nothing more. They do not have a country or an allegiance, they have an > agenda. These people might hold American passports, but they are not > Americans because they do not believe in the Constitution. They believe > in the power of the few, not a government for or by the people. They are > a few and their agenda is global. > > *You suggest the Republican Party is simply an organizational host. Is > there any vestige left of the host or has the entire party been devoured? > > The Republicans have been neutered by the neocons. > > *Your concept of neocons seems confusing because, using your > host/parasite paradigm, they cannot tell between the host and the > parasite which invades it. > > I know people who have worked for George H. W. Bush, both when he > was vice president and president. Bush Sr. called the neocons the > 'crazies in the basement.' I think it is dangerous to confuse the two, > because there are Americans who love their country and are conservatives > who do not support what is going on. Until the host rejects the > parasite, it is difficult to separate the two. Brent Scowcroft for > example is not a neocon, yet people call him one. Scowcroft worked hard > to reign in the 'crazies in the basement' as did Reagan. Many have > defined the neocon movement based on the highly intellectual, albeit > warped, musings of Strauss and Bloom. Yet one could hardly call the > current leadership intellectual or even capable of digesting this > philosophy. Even neocon thinkers are jumping off the ship. > > *Do you believe this is simply trickle-down Machiavellianism in much the > same way that Communism trickled down as an aberration of its original > intent? > > No plan survives initial contact with the enemy. The neocon > ideology was always hypothetical in its pure application until now. What > we are seeing today is what happens when theory (bad theory at that) > makes contact with reality. You get chaos, through which the neocons are > now trying to navigate > > *Is Karl Rove a neocon? > > Karl Rove is not part of the neo-conservative master group; he is a > host > > *Then who is steering the ship? > > An oligarchy of 'public servant' classes who are drawn from > business, and serve naked economic interests. This is true whether you > are Democrat or Republican. > > *Several insiders have expressed concern over possible oil shortage riots > Would the Patriot Act be put to use, in your opinion, to address such > riots? > > The Patriot Act is simply the neocons putting their judicial agenda > in place by other means. It was a compilation of all of the conservative > initiatives, not neocon initiatives, which the conservative Republicans > have been pushing for, including a more conservative law enforcement > element. This is not unhealthy as long is it is done properly, through > legislation, proper channels of debate and discourse. A lot of this had > been submitted in the past, but was rejected. After 9/11 all of these > initiatives were lumped together. There are some things in the Patriot > Act I agree with, but the Patriot Act requires a responsible society. > The neocons have no interest in a responsible society; they simply used > the conservatives as a vehicle to push an agenda to assault individual > civil liberties. As the Patriot Act is now, how it came about, is > entirely un-American. It is extreme legislation that does nothing to > address the issues it professes to, but moreover, it is, as an existing > law, un-American. What makes it un-American is that no one read it > before they voted for it. So the process was un-American, and the > motivation behind it was un-American. We cannot have a nation that is > governed by fear. The Patriot Act is un-American simply because it exists. > > *So how do citizens address this situation since the very means of > addressing it via Congress seem to have been closed off? > > Congress has ceased to function as a viable tool of government. > What is needed is for leaders of honor to resign in protest. I have had > this conversation with some in Congress and have asked about their > thoughts on shutting down Congress and cleaning house. Their counter is > that they are afraid to 'leave the crazies in control.' They are already > in control. If the people want to heal this country, the people have to > purge the failing of this country. Vote them out. It might take two or > three cycles, but it will happen and it will take time. Everyone who > voted for the war in Iraq should be voted out of office because it > violated article six of the Constitution. Everyone who voted for the > Patriot Act needs to go because they did not represent the people by > voting on legislation they did not read. They have to go, regardless of > party. They have through their actions decided who stays and who goes. > Hope, and worries, for the future > > *You suggest Americans vote out all who voted for these measures. If New > Yorkers voted out Hillary, who voted for both the Patriot Act and the > war in Iraq, and who is also leading the pack of the Democratic Party > for the 2008 nomination, what then? > > Hillary is the manifestation of all that ails the Democratic Party. > She stands for nothing. She has been compromised by her voting record > ... how can she stand for anything worth supporting? And yet she will be > the Democratic nominee in 2008, thus guaranteeing another > neocon/Republican victory. 'Dump Hillary Now' would be the smartest move > Dean could make as the new Democratic National Committee Chair. ... Like > I said, it might take two or three cycles, but it will happen. > > *What about Dean? > > Dean has to be part of the process of rebuilding and that will take > time Dean cannot run for president, because Dean cannot run as a > Democrat - the party is not set up to sustain someone like him. He is > one of the exceptions in a corrupt party. He is also not corrupted by > his voting record. He is someone who represents something, he did not > vote for the war in Iraq, for example. > > *We talked about this current social crisis as a closed loop during the > second installment. Have you ever seen a loop like this throughout the > history of the US? What does this mean? > > The American experiment is much too complex to be destroyed by the > neocons. In the end, the neocons will lose. It may take ten to twelve > more years, and the costs will be horrific, but America will survive. > There will be one hell of a mess to clean up, though, after the fall of > the neocons. > > *Where do you see America, should things continue as is, five years from > now? > > At war, bankrupt morally and fiscally, and in great pain ... and > only half-way through the nightmare. Ten to twelve years is what we will > have to get through, but we will get through it. > ------- > > -- "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 2 12:07:20 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j32K77IV013079; Sat, 2 Apr 2005 12:07:08 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j32K75qP013051; Sat, 2 Apr 2005 12:07:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 12:07:05 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050402200659.009496c0 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 02 Apr 2005 21:06:59 +0100 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Requiescat in Pace Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58881 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: ============================================ Oremus pro Pontifice nostro Joanne Paulo. Dominus conservet eum, et vivificet eum, et beatum faciat eum in terra, et non tradat eum in animam inimicorum ejus. ============================================ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 2 20:13:23 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j334DJKn009262; Sat, 2 Apr 2005 20:13:20 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j334D5EA009191; Sat, 2 Apr 2005 20:13:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 20:13:05 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "John Steck" To: "Vortex" Subject: 1/2 amp TIG Welder? Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 22:15:30 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 Resent-Message-ID: <5mgPQ.A.gPC.Q12TCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58882 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hello Vorts, As a rather eccentric crowd that does not especially wander down traditional paths I was wondering if any had any recommendations for a low amperage TIG welder? I have an application where I am sealing off the end of 30ga stainless tube (0.002" wall). Just needs a spark to do it cleanly. I haven't been able to find anything that runs bellow 1 amp... any suggestions? -john From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 2 20:25:27 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j334PGYp016303; Sat, 2 Apr 2005 20:25:16 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j334PEm2016282; Sat, 2 Apr 2005 20:25:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 20:25:14 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000c01c53805$1be128e0$ea017841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: 1/2 amp Tig welder Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 22:24:57 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0008_01C537D2.CD3C2D20"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-99.8 required=4.0 tests=HTML_50_60,HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58883 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C537D2.CD3C2D20 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0009_01C537D2.CD3DB3C0" ------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C537D2.CD3DB3C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankJohn Steck, Way too low amps for what we use Tig's for.Can you fold and crimp and = use spot welder?. .002 wall is tissue paper. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C537D2.CD3DB3C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
John Steck,
 
Way too low amps for what we use Tig's for.Can you fold and crimp = and use=20 spot welder?. .002 wall is tissue paper.
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C537D2.CD3DB3C0-- ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C537D2.CD3C2D20 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000701c53805$17cbeec0$ea017841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C537D2.CD3C2D20-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 3 06:30:12 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j33DU2ep009901; Sun, 3 Apr 2005 06:30:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j33DM8U4006847; Sun, 3 Apr 2005 06:22:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 06:22:08 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <424FEE14.6080507 ihug.co.nz> Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2005 01:22:28 +1200 From: John Berry User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Rail Gun Recoil Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58884 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I'm not sure there is a single established answer to what I'm about to ask, but I know that both possibilities were at one time considered. In a rail gun, clearly the force on the movable member is reflected elsewhere in the circuit, either as a longitudinal force on the rail, or on what bridges the other end of the circuit (generally the battery, which of course would have a force on it either way). Is there considered to be a final word on if a longitudinal force is felt by the rails as a recoil? (and hence by the charge moving in the rail) In other words are the forces at 90 degrees to the conductor, or not? Here is an experiment that should answer the question, I think a form of this hairpin experiment has been preformed before. ------------------------------ *--------------------------- B I A Inner assembly moves as one I T *--------------------------- ------------------------------ stationary outer rails Legend: - rail * contact point between both rails I transverse section that if this were a rail gun would be bullet If a longitudinal recoil force is placed on the rails the inner assembly should barely move, otherwise it should move as with a normal rail gun and experience almost equal force. Can anyone save me from preforming this experiment? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 3 10:16:41 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j33HGWel032345; Sun, 3 Apr 2005 10:16:33 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j33HGSq2032319; Sun, 3 Apr 2005 10:16:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 10:16:28 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [192.82.7.21] X-Originating-Email: [mgoldes msn.com] X-Sender: mgoldes msn.com In-Reply-To: <424FEE14.6080507 ihug.co.nz> From: "Mark Goldes" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: Rail Gun Recoil Date: Sun, 03 Apr 2005 10:16:19 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Apr 2005 17:16:20.0380 (UTC) FILETIME=[DA8885C0:01C53870] Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58885 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John, You may want to check out the paper: P. Graneau, 'Railgun Recoil and Relativity', J. Phys.: Appl. Phys.: vol. 20, pp. 391-393 Railguns have produced anomalous behavior. Perhaps this paper will lead you to others. It has been too many years since I looked into the matter to be more helpful. Mark >From: John Berry >Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com >To: vortex-l eskimo.com >Subject: Rail Gun Recoil >Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2005 01:22:28 +1200 > >I'm not sure there is a single established answer to what I'm about to ask, >but I know that both possibilities were at one time considered. > >In a rail gun, clearly the force on the movable member is reflected >elsewhere in the circuit, either as a longitudinal force on the rail, or on >what bridges the other end of the circuit (generally the battery, which of >course would have a force on it either way). > >Is there considered to be a final word on if a longitudinal force is felt >by the rails as a recoil? (and hence by the charge moving in the rail) > >In other words are the forces at 90 degrees to the conductor, or not? > >Here is an experiment that should answer the question, I think a form of >this hairpin experiment has been preformed before. > >------------------------------ > *--------------------------- >B I >A Inner assembly moves as one I >T *--------------------------- >------------------------------ stationary outer rails > >Legend: >- rail >* contact point between both rails >I transverse section that if this were a rail gun would be bullet > >If a longitudinal recoil force is placed on the rails the inner assembly >should barely move, otherwise it should move as with a normal rail gun and >experience almost equal force. > >Can anyone save me from preforming this experiment? > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 3 10:56:11 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j33Hu2el016210; Sun, 3 Apr 2005 10:56:03 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j33Ht9eS015569; Sun, 3 Apr 2005 10:55:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 10:55:09 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 09:56:18 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Rail Gun Recoil Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58886 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 1:22 AM 4/4/5, John Berry wrote: >I'm not sure there is a single established answer to what I'm about to >ask, but I know that both possibilities were at one time considered. > >In a rail gun, clearly the force on the movable member is reflected >elsewhere in the circuit, either as a longitudinal force on the rail, or >on what bridges the other end of the circuit (generally the battery, >which of course would have a force on it either way). > >Is there considered to be a final word on if a longitudinal force is >felt by the rails as a recoil? (and hence by the charge moving in the rail) > >In other words are the forces at 90 degrees to the conductor, or not? > >Here is an experiment that should answer the question, I think a form of >this hairpin experiment has been preformed before. > >------------------------------ > *--------------------------- >B I >A Inner assembly moves as one I >T *--------------------------- >------------------------------ >stationary outer rails > >Legend: >- rail >* contact point between both rails >I transverse section that if this were a rail gun would be bullet > >If a longitudinal recoil force is placed on the rails the inner assembly >should barely move, otherwise it should move as with a normal rail gun >and experience almost equal force. > >Can anyone save me from preforming this experiment? You need more detail in your analysis of this experiment. Even using Lorentz force (i.e. Biot-Savart) finite element analysis, this would be expected to work with the same net forces as an ordinary rail gun. The interesting thing you get from detailed finite element analysis is exactly where in the metal the forces arise. For example, even if you expand your model just slightly, as in Fig. 2, E C ------------------------------ | * | |W | ---------------------------- X B I A Inner assembly moves as one I T ---------------------------- Y | |Z | * ------------------------------ F D stationary outer rails Legend: - rail * contact point between both rails I transverse section that if this were a rail gun would be bullet Fig. 2 - Expanded detail of armature bends then, from a bit of experience, you can see the large (but seen oly in finely detailed analysis) Lorentz self-forces in the metal at current bends X and Y exactly cancel the self-forces at current bends W and Z. This then leaves the ordinarily ILB force on the armature of length L due to the force of field from the the rails on segments C-W, and D-Z, as well as the forces from the fields from segments W-X and Z-Y on segment X-Y, and the total length L is still C-D. There ILB force at the battery end is equal but opposite to the ILB force of the armature, so the primary "recoil" takes place at the battery end, unless there are bends in the rails prior to the battery. Note also, that there are indeed longitudinal forces in the rails however! The cause of this can be seen only when analysing the current bend areas inside the rails near the arc points, i.e. points C and D, with fine granularity. A Loretnz self-force arises there that matches the internal self-forces in the bends at the battery end at points E and F. These forces are opposed, so there is a tensile force on the rails between E and C, and also between F and D in Fig. 2. If the rails are heated to the point of melting at the arc point the the rails deform permanently as the armature moves along and the the rail ribbons. If the rails are laterally restrained then the internal laterally directed Lorentz forces compress the fluid rails in the forward direction in the segments slightly leading the armature. As the armature moves the hot segment is thus subjected to compressive force followed by a stretching force. The resulting rail deformations give the appearance the primary recoil force is in the rails near the aramture, thus giving credence to amperian current segment analysis vs Biot-Savart, and giving rise to hopes for inertial space drives. In my experience with this stuff Biot-Savart always wins. Another way to look at the circuit is to pretend the arcs dont exist. Weld the gaps shut. Now, if bending the armature in some way increased the forces on the armature's current segments, without creating an equal but opposed set of forces in the other part of the circuit, then you would have a closed cirucit inertial drive. The sum of the forces about a closed DC circuit are unfortunately zero. It never hurts to experiment though. Nature doesn't always agree with theory. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 3 11:39:12 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j33Id2el032403; Sun, 3 Apr 2005 11:39:02 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j33IcuoA032352; Sun, 3 Apr 2005 11:38:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 11:38:56 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Rail Gun Recoil Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 14:40:46 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <424FEE14.6080507 ihug.co.nz> Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58887 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi John, If you can find a used copy of Peters book, "Ampere Neumann Electrodynamics of Metals" he talks about rail guns and Ampere's Hairpin experiment, which ( I think ) you are describing below. In short, yes free member ( labeled I in your diagram ) will move away from the battery. I believe this is for the same reason that a permeable member will be drawn into a current carrying coil. That said, it never hurts to do an experiment... K. -----Original Message----- From: John Berry [mailto:antigrav ihug.co.nz] Sent: Sunday, April 03, 2005 9:22 AM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Rail Gun Recoil I'm not sure there is a single established answer to what I'm about to ask, but I know that both possibilities were at one time considered. In a rail gun, clearly the force on the movable member is reflected elsewhere in the circuit, either as a longitudinal force on the rail, or on what bridges the other end of the circuit (generally the battery, which of course would have a force on it either way). Is there considered to be a final word on if a longitudinal force is felt by the rails as a recoil? (and hence by the charge moving in the rail) In other words are the forces at 90 degrees to the conductor, or not? Here is an experiment that should answer the question, I think a form of this hairpin experiment has been preformed before. ------------------------------ *--------------------------- B I A Inner assembly moves as one I T *--------------------------- ------------------------------ stationary outer rails Legend: - rail * contact point between both rails I transverse section that if this were a rail gun would be bullet If a longitudinal recoil force is placed on the rails the inner assembly should barely move, otherwise it should move as with a normal rail gun and experience almost equal force. Can anyone save me from preforming this experiment? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 3 16:14:20 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j33NEEel002557; Sun, 3 Apr 2005 16:14:14 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j33NE29O002503; Sun, 3 Apr 2005 16:14:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 16:14:02 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 15:15:23 -0800 To: From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: RE: Rail Gun Recoil Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58888 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 2:40 PM 4/3/5, Keith Nagel wrote: >Hi John, > >If you can find a used copy of Peters book, "Ampere Neumann >Electrodynamics of Metals" he talks about rail guns and >Ampere's Hairpin experiment, which ( I think ) you are >describing below. In short, yes free member >( labeled I in your diagram ) will move away from the >battery. Yes. >I believe this is for the same reason that >a permeable member will be drawn into a current carrying >coil. The main reason is that the sum of the forces around a closed circuit is zero. If a circuit is analysed in two parts, the force on one part (the stator, i.e. the rails and breech) is equal but opposed to the other part (i.e. the armature). Since the stator portion is an open U shaped circuit element, it experiences a powerful left directed force in the figure, regardless the shape of the armature. The armature therefore experiences an equal but opposed force as the breech, regardless the shape of the armature. The total absolute scalar force experienced by the two can be affected by the shape of the armature, but not if the breech is located far away from the armature and the rails are straight. Note that this does not necessarily mean the forces due to the action of the fields of one part of the circuit *upon the other part* are equal to the forces due to the field of second part on the first! Newton's laws do not apply here except in bulk, in the aggregate. Open circuit DC elements, for example a U shaped element, are capable of exerting self-forces, forces that are self derived, thus violating Newton's laws when analysed on that level. It is only in the aggregate that the forces sum to zero. In other words, using Biot-Savart analysis, it is possible to break down the forces resulting from two parts of a closed DC circuit into four independent forces: a. The force from the field of Part 1 on the elements of Part 2. b. The force from the field of Part 2 on the elements of Part 1. c. The self-force of the field of the elements of Part 1 on itself. d. The self-force of the field of the elements of Part 2 on itself. The sum of the forces for any DC circuit is zero, but the sum is not necessarily zero for any of the above items a-d, or any proper subset of the above. > >That said, it never hurts to do an experiment... Amen. Further, there are various patents that in effect deny the above. None that I know of have ever been successfully implemented in practice however. One hears plenty of theory but never sees an actual net thrust developed that can work in space. So far, it appears to me this is a ripe field for making money via publication, yet no money seems to be made through actualization. Assuming the breech is far away from the armature, and the rails straight and parallel, if bending the armature could significantly change the popelling force on the armature in DC operation, then an inertial space drive could clearly be developed. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 3 19:34:12 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j342Y9Td032439; Sun, 3 Apr 2005 19:34:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j342Y0Nb032376; Sun, 3 Apr 2005 19:34:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 19:34:00 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4250A795.9050003 ihug.co.nz> Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2005 14:33:57 +1200 From: John Berry User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Rail Gun Recoil References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58889 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace, thank you for your detailed analysis. The reason I was asking was because I thought that if the forces are as Grassmann insists are perpendicular then removing the battery and instead using high frequency alternating current in what is now an open circuit should give rise to thrust. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- + ~ - I I ------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ~ + The force on the I's would be perpendicular with no force on any other segment. However with further thought, the only way the above would fail to generate thrust is if the forces are as Ampere claims (longitudinal) without any displacement current in the vacuum between the two rails. Even if Ampere is correct as long as there is displacement current the magnetic force from the vacuum displacement current would push on the rail in a longitudinal manner. So Newtons law would survive as the equal and opposite force would be placed on the vacuum (aether). If Grassmann is correct it doesn't matter if displacement current exists or not. / / / / ------------------------------------------------------------------------/ I I ------------------------------------------------------------------------\ \ \ \ \ By having the conductors diverge a bit more thrust might be created, but clearly the angle shown here is too steep. Clearly I keep the 'rails' close and parallel to increase capacitance, I thought of increasing capacitance by adding capacitor plates to the rails (the two plates would of course remain the same distance apart as the rails) but realized as the currents branch out in the plates counter forces would be created, however if the whole thing were made of the same thickness that objection would be removed. So wide ribbon would be the best material to use. Horace Heffner wrote: >At 1:22 AM 4/4/5, John Berry wrote: > > >>I'm not sure there is a single established answer to what I'm about to >>ask, but I know that both possibilities were at one time considered. >> >>In a rail gun, clearly the force on the movable member is reflected >>elsewhere in the circuit, either as a longitudinal force on the rail, or >>on what bridges the other end of the circuit (generally the battery, >>which of course would have a force on it either way). >> >>Is there considered to be a final word on if a longitudinal force is >>felt by the rails as a recoil? (and hence by the charge moving in the rail) >> >>In other words are the forces at 90 degrees to the conductor, or not? >> >>Here is an experiment that should answer the question, I think a form of >>this hairpin experiment has been preformed before. >> >>------------------------------ >> *--------------------------- >>B I >>A Inner assembly moves as one I >>T *--------------------------- >>------------------------------ >>stationary outer rails >> >>Legend: >>- rail >>* contact point between both rails >>I transverse section that if this were a rail gun would be bullet >> >>If a longitudinal recoil force is placed on the rails the inner assembly >>should barely move, otherwise it should move as with a normal rail gun >>and experience almost equal force. >> >>Can anyone save me from preforming this experiment? >> >> > > >You need more detail in your analysis of this experiment. Even using >Lorentz force (i.e. Biot-Savart) finite element analysis, this would be >expected to work with the same net forces as an ordinary rail gun. The >interesting thing you get from detailed finite element analysis is exactly >where in the metal the forces arise. > >For example, even if you expand your model just slightly, as in Fig. 2, > >E C >------------------------------ >| * >| |W >| ---------------------------- X >B I >A Inner assembly moves as one I >T ---------------------------- Y >| |Z >| * >------------------------------ >F D >stationary outer rails > >Legend: >- rail >* contact point between both rails >I transverse section that if this were a rail gun would be bullet > > Fig. 2 - Expanded detail of armature bends > > >then, from a bit of experience, you can see the large (but seen oly in >finely detailed analysis) Lorentz self-forces in the metal at current bends >X and Y exactly cancel the self-forces at current bends W and Z. This then >leaves the ordinarily ILB force on the armature of length L due to the >force of field from the the rails on segments C-W, and D-Z, as well as the >forces from the fields from segments W-X and Z-Y on segment X-Y, and the >total length L is still C-D. > >There ILB force at the battery end is equal but opposite to the ILB force >of the armature, so the primary "recoil" takes place at the battery end, >unless there are bends in the rails prior to the battery. > >Note also, that there are indeed longitudinal forces in the rails however! >The cause of this can be seen only when analysing the current bend areas >inside the rails near the arc points, i.e. points C and D, with fine >granularity. A Loretnz self-force arises there that matches the internal >self-forces in the bends at the battery end at points E and F. These >forces are opposed, so there is a tensile force on the rails between E and >C, and also between F and D in Fig. 2. If the rails are heated to the >point of melting at the arc point the the rails deform permanently as the >armature moves along and the the rail ribbons. If the rails are laterally >restrained then the internal laterally directed Lorentz forces compress the >fluid rails in the forward direction in the segments slightly leading the >armature. As the armature moves the hot segment is thus subjected to >compressive force followed by a stretching force. The resulting rail >deformations give the appearance the primary recoil force is in the rails >near the aramture, thus giving credence to amperian current segment >analysis vs Biot-Savart, and giving rise to hopes for inertial space >drives. In my experience with this stuff Biot-Savart always wins. > >Another way to look at the circuit is to pretend the arcs dont exist. Weld >the gaps shut. Now, if bending the armature in some way increased the >forces on the armature's current segments, without creating an equal but >opposed set of forces in the other part of the circuit, then you would have >a closed cirucit inertial drive. The sum of the forces about a closed DC >circuit are unfortunately zero. > >It never hurts to experiment though. Nature doesn't always agree with theory. > >Regards, > >Horace Heffner > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 3 20:08:37 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3438PTd020384; Sun, 3 Apr 2005 20:08:26 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3438IBu020342; Sun, 3 Apr 2005 20:08:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 20:08:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <004001c538c3$3a8e2720$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: 180 mpg... was Plug-in Prius Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 20:05:59 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58890 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This good article: http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/02/business/02plug.html?8br April 2, 2005 "Hybrid-Car Tinkerers Scoff at No-Plug-In Rule" By DANNY HAKIM Some quotes and comments "This does not make Toyota happy." +++ Why? wouldn't saving the most money for their customers end up being to their best interest? "The company has spent millions of dollars persuading people that hybrid electric cars like the Prius never need to be plugged in and work just like normal cars. So has Honda, which even ran a commercial that showed a guy wandering around his Civic hybrid fruitlessly searching for a plug." +++ But their competetion is not going to be Honda.... Once the "hurt" pf $3 gallon gasoline really dawns on consumers, and forces them out of SUVs, Toyota's only problem will be keeping up with demand. "But the idea of making hybrid cars that have the option of being plugged in is supported by a diverse group of interests, from neoconservatives who support greater fuel efficiency to utilities salivating at the chance to supplant oil with electricity. " +++ Duh! If you were able to plug a hybrid in overnight, you could potentially use a lot less gas by cruising for long stretches on battery power only. But unlike purely electric cars, which take hours to charge and need frequent recharging, you would not have to plug in if you did not want to. +++Double Duh!! "I've gotten anywhere from 65 to over 100 miles per gallon," said Mr. Gremban, an engineer at CalCars, a small nonprofit group based in Palo Alto, Calif. He gets 40 to 45 miles per gallon driving his normal Prius. And EnergyCS, a small company that has collaborated with CalCars, has modified another Prius with more sophisticated batteries; they claim their Prius gets up to 180 m.p.g. and can travel more than 30 miles on battery power." Wow !!! 180 miles per gallon... now were gettin' somewhere/ Jones Sing it again BB and Etta, "OPEC, you might 'a made your move too soon" Three days of snow in Birmingham Thought you would wonder where I am Rang our number all night long It's no comfort on the telephone Ran out and caught a midnight flight Thought a little love would make everything all right The landlord said you moved away And left me all your bills to pay Look out baby, you might have made your move too soon... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 3 20:20:14 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j343K4Td027307; Sun, 3 Apr 2005 20:20:08 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j343K2LA027274; Sun, 3 Apr 2005 20:20:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 20:20:02 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "John Steck" To: Subject: RE: 1/2 amp Tig welder Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 22:22:31 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0002_01C5389B.A0CC3130" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <000c01c53805$1be128e0$ea017841 xptower> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58891 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0002_01C5389B.A0CC3130 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0003_01C5389B.A0CC3130" ------=_NextPart_001_0003_01C5389B.A0CC3130 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit BlankIf it were only that easy... 8^) Specialized medical product. Needs to be neat and clean. No heat scoring. No tip bulge bigger than the diameter. I didn't believe it possible either until I got a back stage tour. Currently doing semi-mass production with a couple of rube-Goldberg rigs. Currently using a traditional TIG turned all the way down to 1 amp with an alternate gas. Works reasonably well on 30ga tube with 0.003" walls, but no way to turn it lower to do the thinner wall stuff with acceptable results. Just fishing for ideas... wasn't sure if anyone had any experience with micro-welding. -john -----Original Message----- From: RC Macaulay [mailto:walhalla cvtv.net] Sent: Saturday, April 02, 2005 10:25 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: 1/2 amp Tig welder John Steck, Way too low amps for what we use Tig's for.Can you fold and crimp and use spot welder?. .002 wall is tissue paper. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0003_01C5389B.A0CC3130 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
If = it were only=20 that easy... 8^)
 
Specialized = medical=20 product.  Needs to be neat and clean.  No heat scoring.  = No tip=20 bulge bigger than the diameter.  I didn't believe it possible = either until=20 I got a back stage tour.   
 
Currently=20 doing semi-mass production with a couple of rube-Goldberg = rigs. =20 Currently using a traditional TIG turned all the way down to 1 = amp with an=20 alternate gas.  Works reasonably well on 30ga tube with 0.003" = walls, but=20 no way to turn it lower to do the thinner wall stuff with = acceptable=20 results.
 
Just fishing = for=20 ideas... wasn't sure if anyone had any experience with=20 micro-welding.
 
-john
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: RC Macaulay=20 [mailto:walhalla cvtv.net]
Sent: Saturday, April 02, 2005 = 10:25=20 PM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: 1/2 amp Tig=20 welder

John Steck,
 
Way too low amps for what we use Tig's for.Can you fold and crimp = and use=20 spot welder?. .002 wall is tissue paper.
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_0003_01C5389B.A0CC3130-- ------=_NextPart_000_0002_01C5389B.A0CC3130 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <859570003 04042005-02cd> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0002_01C5389B.A0CC3130-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 3 20:47:50 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j343leTd006585; Sun, 3 Apr 2005 20:47:41 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j343la49006557; Sun, 3 Apr 2005 20:47:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 20:47:36 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: 180 mpg... was Plug-in Prius Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 23:49:32 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <004001c538c3$3a8e2720$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58892 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones writes: >Wow !!! 180 miles per gallon... now were gettin' somewhere/ Currently I'm paying 16 cents/KWH for electricity. How far can I be gettin' on that? Probably not as far as the old dead dinosaur. I expect the break even point is much lower than 18O mpg. K. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 3 21:20:03 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j344JtTd017638; Sun, 3 Apr 2005 21:19:55 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j344Jqx9017615; Sun, 3 Apr 2005 21:19:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 21:19:52 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <06a901c538cd$3bd393e0$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: , References: Subject: Re: 180 mpg... was Plug-in Prius Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 21:17:26 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58893 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ---- From: "Keith Nagel" > Currently I'm paying 16 cents/KWH for electricity. How far can I be gettin' on that? Probably not as far as the old dead dinosaur. I expect the break even point is much lower than 18O mpg. OK, Keith . A figure of 30 kilowatts is often used as an adequate power for normal driving. With electricity at $ .16 / kwh you could drive for an hour at top speed for less than $6, using electricity, if the motor/battery combo is ~88 % efficient. Caveat: the average for this may be below 88%, depending on whose figures you use... BUT there are bona fide small electric motors (CISIRO) which get over 98% efficiency and batteries which are over 90% - giving a net of 88%. Why not use the best available if you are going for operating economy and not lowest capital cost? With gasoline having an energy content of 114,000 btu/gallon and an ICE engine having an efficiency of ~25% you are getting about 28,000 btu equivalent or 16.4 kwh for your same $6. Therefore even at 16 cents, to get the same 30 kwh equivalent from a gasoline powered automobile, it would seem to cost nearly twice as much with gas at $3 gallon, which it will be this summer, without some kind of voodoo economics at work. At the current price of $57 per barrel gasoline "ought" to cost over $3 now. Jones BTW It is generally accepted that the CSIRO Electric Machines motor is the most efficient small motor design (98.4% at max rpm). CSIRO, an Australian non-profit, no longer manufactures the Solar Powered Electric Vehicle Motor, for which it was designed. Anyone is free to use the information on this site to design their own motor. http://www.tip.csiro.au/Machines/success/sc.html http://www.aurorasolarcar.com/solartech/motor.html The problem is that the NIB magnets are expensive... but not too bad compared to gasoline at 3 bucks.... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 3 21:24:01 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j344NlTd019175; Sun, 3 Apr 2005 21:23:52 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j344Nk94019160; Sun, 3 Apr 2005 21:23:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 21:23:46 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Sun, 03 Apr 2005 22:23:41 -0600 From: Ron Wormus To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: 1/2 amp Tig welder Message-ID: <29127375.1112567021 localhost> In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.2.0 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <_6k2KD.A.SrE.SFMUCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58894 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jewelers use some sort of inert gas laser welder and high magnafacation to accuately see the work. Process was explained to me. I haven't actually seen it done. Ron --On Sunday, April 03, 2005 10:22 PM -0500 John Steck wrote: > > If it were only that easy... 8^) > > Specialized medical product. Needs to be neat and clean. No heat > scoring. No tip bulge bigger than the diameter. I didn't believe it > possible either until I got a back stage tour. > Currently doing semi-mass production with a couple of rube-Goldberg > rigs. Currently using a traditional TIG turned all the way down to 1 > amp with an alternate gas. Works reasonably well on 30ga tube with > 0.003" walls, but no way to turn it lower to do the thinner wall > stuff with acceptable results. > Just fishing for ideas... wasn't sure if anyone had any experience > with micro-welding. > -john > > > -----Original Message----- > From: RC Macaulay [mailto:walhalla cvtv.net] > Sent: Saturday, April 02, 2005 10:25 PM > To: vortex-l eskimo.com > Subject: Re: 1/2 amp Tig welder > > > John Steck, > > Way too low amps for what we use Tig's for.Can you fold and crimp and > use spot welder?. .002 wall is tissue paper. > Richard > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 3 21:39:45 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j344dZu5027019; Sun, 3 Apr 2005 21:39:35 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j344dXqI026997; Sun, 3 Apr 2005 21:39:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 21:39:33 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The BIG DEAL Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2005 14:39:22 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <20050402005351.27713.qmail web51701.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20050402005351.27713.qmail web51701.mail.yahoo.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j344dTu5026960 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58895 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In reply to Terry Blanton's message of Fri, 1 Apr 2005 16:53:51 -0800 (PST): Hi, [snip] >Mylar. > >Robin van Spaandonk wrote:I would estimate mirror costs being at least ten times less. [snip] Close. Aluminised mylar as used in toy balloons is too thin, as it wrinkles easily. I estimate about 0.5-1 mm thick would be both sufficiently rigid to remain smooth, and also sufficiently cheap. It may be possible to use a cheaper plastic than mylar. The rigidity of the whole mirror could be maintained, by gluing the aluminised sheet to solid Styrofoam *cast* in a parabolic shape. IOW a parabolic mold is used to cast thousands of identical Styrofoam blocks. If necessary, the Styrofoam can be reinforced with chicken wire. The whole thing would be very light weight, very rigid, and very cheap to make ($'s per kW, as opposed to $'s per Watt). The mirrors would become the cheapest part of the installation, iso the most expensive part. Most large scale mirrors currently in use have heavy metallic structures supporting the mirrors, which in turn require carefully balanced and machined supports. This is what makes them so expensive. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 4 00:40:07 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j347e2eo031665; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 00:40:03 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j347dnPP031514; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 00:39:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 00:39:49 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 23:41:10 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Rail Gun Recoil Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58896 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 2:33 PM 4/4/5, John Berry wrote: >Horace, thank you for your detailed analysis. >The reason I was asking was because I thought that if the forces are as >Grassmann insists are perpendicular then removing the battery and >instead using high frequency alternating current in what is now an open >circuit should give rise to thrust. > >------------------------------------------------------------------------- >+ ~ - >I >I >------------------------------------------------------------------------- >- ~ + > >The force on the I's would be perpendicular with no force on any other >segment. >However with further thought, the only way the above would fail to >generate thrust is if the forces are as Ampere claims (longitudinal) >without any displacement current in the vacuum between the two rails. > >Even if Ampere is correct as long as there is displacement current the >magnetic force from the vacuum displacement current would push on the >rail in a longitudinal manner. > >So Newtons law would survive as the equal and opposite force would be >placed on the vacuum (aether). > >If Grassmann is correct it doesn't matter if displacement current exists >or not. > > > > > >/ > / > / > / >------------------------------------------------------------------------/ >I >I >------------------------------------------------------------------------\ > \ > \ > \ > >\ > >By having the conductors diverge a bit more thrust might be created, but >clearly the angle shown here is too steep. >Clearly I keep the 'rails' close and parallel to increase capacitance, I >thought of increasing capacitance by adding capacitor plates to the >rails (the two plates would of course remain the same distance apart as >the rails) but realized as the currents branch out in the plates counter >forces would be created, however if the whole thing were made of the >same thickness that objection would be removed. >So wide ribbon would be the best material to use. Plenty of things, including patents and published experiments have been done along the above lines. Sorry, but I don't have time to look anything up at the monent, but the vortex archives are full of this stuff. Again I don't now of anything resulting in a successful product, so it all seems to fall into the category of wishful thinking. The minute you accept Grassman all kinds of perpetual motion things are possible including the Marinov motor. Just for fun I've attached an old post of mine along those lines. Virtual currents appear to close the gap just as effectively as real currents. Virtual currents arise between capacitor elements (plates) - they are equivalent to the currrent which would be required to generate the B between the plates that arises due to the changing E between the plates. If I correctly recall some work I did along those lines the net force from the virtual current actually resides in the plate conductors due to the effects of the B on the real currents in the plates, even though the force mimics exactly the force which would be created on the non-existant virtual current which closes the plate gap. An exception must be made for fields that radiate away fromthe plates which carry photon momentum and energy. Here's the old post on Grassman and Marinov stuff: - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Marinov's Longitudinal Force An Analysis from a Design Standpoint Horace Heffner - 3/23/98 The following is an attempt to analyze Marinov's law from a design standpoint. The objective is to extract an expression for Marinov's longitudinal force that may be useful to form longitudinal force accelerator design concepts,and to briefly consider some design consequences. An alternate objective was to derive an absurdity and thus disprove Marinov's derivation, however that has not been sufficiently achieved. Some unusual consequences have been derived that raise some doubts, however. Any assistance in finding my errors or an error of Marinov's would be appreciated. It seems desirable to find the longitudinal component directly from the Marinov formula (see equation (2) of quoted excerpt from Marinov's article appended below): Fm = (u0 q q')/(8 Pi r^3) {V'*R)V + (V*R)V' - 2(V*V')R} (1) or more simply, substituting k = (u0 q q')/(8 Pi r^3): Fm = k {V'*R)V + (V*R)V' - 2(V*V')R} (2) Here Fm, V, V' and R are all vectors. Since I personally find it difficult to visualize the above, converting everything into the longitudinal components also has the advantage to me of eliminating the vectors. The original text by Marinov, defining the above equation, is included at the end of this post for the sake of clarity. In the above equation * means dot product, an operation on two vectors. For the sake of convenience and to avoid the use of Greek letters for angles, let us denote the cosine of the angle between two vectors V and V' as cos(V,V'). If we denote the length of a vector V by |V|, then we have the definition of the dot product being given by: V*V' = |V| |V'| cos(V,V') (3) Applying (3) to (2) we have: Fm = k { [ |V'| |R| cos(V',R) ] V + [ |V| |R| cos(V,R) ] V' -2[ |V| |V'| cos(V,V') ] R } (4) Now, the magnitude of vector V in the V direction is |V|. The magnitude of the component of V' in the direction of V is cos(V,V') |V'|. Similarly the magnitude of the component of R in the direction of V is cos(V,R) |R|. Substituting into (4) to get the component of each term in the V direction, i.e. the longitudinal direction, we then get an equation for the scalar longitudinal force component Fl: Fl = k { |V'| |R| cos(V',R) |V| + |V| |R| cos(V,R) cos(V,V') |V'| -2|V| |V'| cos(V,V') cos(V,R) |R| } (5) Fl = k |V| |V'| |R| {cos(V',R) + cos(V,R) cos(V,V') -2 cos(V,V') cos(V,R) } (6) Noting that |R| = r, simplifying (6) we have: Fl = (u0 q q')/(8 Pi r^2) |V| |V'| {cos(V',R) - cos(V,R) cos(V,V')} (7) It is now clear that the key to understanding Marinov's longitudinal force lies in the understanding of the dimensionless scalar term: h = {cos(V',R) - cos(V,R) cos(V,V')} (8) because given scalar speeds v, v' of two charges q and q' at scalar distance r we have from (7) and (8): Fl = v v' (h u0 q q')/(8 Pi r^2) (9) Note that -2 < h < 2. Equation (9) may be useful for a finite element analysis, and converts readily into a form for current segment (ilB) analysis. Equation (9) seems to indicate that Marinov's longitudinal force can be related almost purely to the electrostatic attraction of the two charges, q and q'! Knowing the identity: u0 e0 = 1/c^2 (10) we have: u0 = 1/(c^2 e0) (11) Substituting (11) into (9): Fl = v v' (h 1/(c^2 e0) q q')/(8 Pi r^2) (12) Recalling that the scalar force between two charges is: Fe = (q1 q2)/(4Pi e0 r^2) (13) We can rearrange (9) to show the scalar longitudinal force Fl in terms of Fe: Fl = (v v' h/2)/c^2 (q1 q2)/(4Pi e0 r^2) (14) Fl = (h v v')/2c^2 Fe (15) It is important to recall that the vector longitudinal force was defined to be in the direction of V, by definition of "longitudinal". The units of Fe clearly represent a force (the electrostatic force), so the term (h v v')/2c^2 in (15) should be dimensionless, which it clearly is. At least the units appear to be correct. This is a really bizarre notion of reality, that a longitudinal force exists and is a function of the electrostatic force and velocity vectors relative to the frame of reference where energy is extracted. Due to the critical energy producing regions being at velocities near c, a relativistic analysis is warranted. However, it is believed that practical use may be made of devices operating at 0.1 c. It is possible such a force has not been readily observed or identified because it is so small unless both v and v' are near c, and q' is large. Given only the dimensionless directional scalar term: h = {cos(V',R) - cos(V,R) cos(V,V')} (8) and the scalar longitudinal force Fl in terms of the scalar electrostatic force Fe: Fl = (h v v')/2c^2 Fe (15) and knowing, -2 < h < 2, we can readily see that increasing v is beneficial, but is bounded by c, the speed of light, so the majority of the remaining limitation on Fl is the ratio v'/c. This sets an upper limit on the size of the longitudinal force at v'/c Fe, which means the primary limit to the force magnitude from a permanent magnet is determined by the speed of the permanent magnet's orbital electrons v'. The highest coefficient of power (COP) implementation then is a longitudinal force accelerator using magnetic "coils" made from coiled long mean free path discharge tubes. Since the path of the accelerated particles might be naturally spiraled by local magnetic fields, the accelerator portion of the device might be made in a coil as well, and the geometry of this coil such that the electrons in the field driver coils are accelerated by the accelerator coil electrons. The distinction then between driver coils and accelerator coils might become dissolved, thus creating a single fully auto-actuated accelerator. One implication of the above is that there may exist a self-sustaining or self enhancing discharge geometry to explian ball lightning. If Marinov's equation is correct: Fm = (u0 q q')/(8 Pi r^3) {V'*R)V + (V*R)V' - 2(V*V')R} (1) and my derivation of that: h = {cos(V',R) - cos(V,R) cos(V,V')} (8) Fl = (h v v')/2c^2 Fe (15) is correct, then one design influence is that what happens in wires is of almost no consequence to a near light speed longitudinal force accelerator. For this reason, it should be possible to build and test the longitudinal force (LF) principle derived here using segments constructed from evacuated tubes. Such accelerator tube segments could be hooked up in parallel or in series, as it does not matter what happens in the adjoining circuitry, except for the beam guiding influence of the magnetic fields. The segments can be assembled in any geometry of utility and could all be linear tubes. It is possible to make a kind of LF accelerator erector set from evacuated glass or quartz envelope tube diodes. At last Ampere's isolated current segment can have a reality of a kind, at least in regards to energy conservation, or non-conservation. In that longitudinal force is proportional to velocity v, the free energy imparted is at least proportional to the average force squared. This implies that a near lightspeed current device compared to a current in wire driven device should produce a factor of about 10^20 more free energy. The longitudinal force is similarly symmetrically proportional to the energizing coil electron velocity v', so large gains are feasible there as well. As the velocities v and v' approach c, the factor (h v v')/2c^2 approaches unity, and the longitudinal force on an accelerated particle in the generator approaches the enormous summation of the combination of electrostatic potential energy between the accelerating particle and every energizing particle. Note that this is a volume effect, unlike surface charge forces utilized in a van deGraff accelerator. Because Fl is a function of both speeds v and v', the positive nuclei in permanent magnets, for example, have no effect, because for them v' = 0, yet all the charges with unbalanced motion, those responsible for B, are active in the longitudinal force on every accelerated particle. If all the above conclusions are correct, an unlimited, non-polluting, and enormously robust and portable source of power is potentially available from a longitudinal force based accelerator. Let us see if we can now glean some understanding of the scalar term: h = {cos(V',R) - cos(V,R) cos(V,V')} (8) so it can be applied to the longitudinal force equation: Fl = v v' (h u0 q q')/(8 Pi r^2) (9) repeated over a volume of a magnet, for example, to evaluate the force on a particle in the vicinity. If a convenient path can be found then a test can be devised. Let us assume we have a cubical magnet volume aligned to the x y and z axes, consisting of atoms all magnetically aligned in the x direction. If we want to analyze the longitudinal force on a particle in space near the magnet at point p with velocity V, we then can partition the magnet into small cubic segments and compute the Fl at p for each magnet segment and sum them. For each segment we have a vector R from p to the segment. We can use q' as the sum of charges of electrons aligned with B in the segment. Atoms are small, so the lateral motion of the electrons, changing R slightly as V' changes direction, can be ignored. To account for electron orbiting in the magnet, we need to sum (integrate) the force Fl for each V' over all the 360 degrees of rotation about the local B vector that is performed by each of the electrons in our charge q'. For this reason, it would be convenient to look at the special case where V is aligned with B, so every V' is purpendicular to V and we thus have cos(V,V') = 0. When: cos(V,V') = 0 for every V' (16) we have: cos(V,R) cos(V,V') = 0 for every V' (17) however, if every R is approximately aligned with B, then also: cos(V',R) ~ 1.0 for every V' (18) thus: h ~ 1.0 (19) for every segment in the example magnet. This implies that there exists a longtitudinal force even in a longitudinal portion of a permanent magnetic field directly in front of a magnetic pole: (e-)--Lf-> N---S <-Lf--(e-) This also means that one possible test of this theory is to do calorimetry on a diode tube both with and without a magnet near the collector plate with a nearby magnetic pole facing the plate from the back side: | |------------(-) | | | | \/\/\/ ------ | ------------- (+) ------ | N | | | | | | | | S | ------ One alternative is to form a ring of discharge tubes in plane XY and place on the z axis the vertical tubes - over the center of the ring: O - | | O + 0---OO---O <---- ring of discharge tubes in plane xy O + | | O - The discharge tubes could be connected in series. Wiring is not shown as it is irrelevant to the longitudinal force for large high speed discharges. Excess energy would show up primarily as heat and radiation at the + terminals of the z axis tubes. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - MARINOV:ANNUS HORRIBILIS The following is an excerpt from an ad by Marinov of the same title as above. Bold letters (vectors) are changed here to capitals. The partial derivative symbol is denoted here as . Note however that the letter capital S below is a scalar. Pi = 3.14159... and u0 is "mu sub zero." There are some references here to photos which are not legible to me. Marinov writes: "The Lorentz equation is wrong. If there are two electric charges q, q' moving with velocities V, V' and the vector-distance from q' to q is R, according to the Lorentz equation the force with which q'V' acts on qV is given by the following Grassman formula: Fg = (u0 q q')/(4 Pi r^3) {(V*R)V' - (V*V')R} (1) Numerous experiments done by other authors (Hering's experiments are from the beginning of the century!) and by me showed that the force acting on qV can not only be transverse to its velocity, as required by (1), but also longitudinal. Any rational man when seeing at least one falsifying experiment rejects the respective formula (Popper), however for thousands and thousands of Betonkoepfe even hundred experiments were not enough. In the photograph there is one such falsifying experiment which (as well as the other) can be carried out by children: A cylindrical magnet is cut along one of its axial planes and the one half is turned up-down (the magnetic forces themselves do the rotation). Around this magnet, there is a trough filled with mercury in which the copper ring which can be seen at right swims (the children take the salt solution and suspend the ring on threads). After sending current of some tens of amperes from the battery at left, which is regulated by the rheostat, the ring begins to rotate. That's all!" "The Lorentz-Marinov equation is the right one. As according to (1) Fg' is not equal and oppositely directed to Fg, I obtained Marinov formula by the most simple and natural symmetrization of (1) (take into account that R = -R') Fm = (Fg - Fg')/2 = (U0 q q')/(8 Pi r^3){V'*R)V + (V*R)V' - 2(V*V')R} (2) Proceeding from (2) and assuming phi <> 0, A/@t <> 0, I obtained the most simple calculations that the force with which an electric system acts on a test charge q moving with velocity V is F/q = - grad phi - A/@t + V x B + VS = Eior + V x B + VS (3) where phi, A are the electric and magnetic potentials generated by the system at the point of the charge's location, Bior = rotA is the Lorentz magnetic intensity, Swhit = -divA/2 is the Whittaker magnetic intensity and Bmar = -(u0/(8 Pi)) integral[ q'(V x V')(R*V)/ (v^2 r^3) ] (4) Smar = -(u0/(8 Pi)) integral[ q'(V * V')(R*V)/ (v^2 r^3) ] are the Marinov vector and scalar magnetic intensities. B = Bior + Bmar is called the vector magnetic intensity and S = Swit + Smar is called the scalar magnetic intensity, (3) is called the Lorentz-Marinov equation. If neglecting the last term and under B we understand Bior, we obtain the Lorentz equation which I call the Lorentz-Grassman equation. That's the whole theory!" Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 4 06:09:13 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j34D96Vv021057; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 06:09:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j34D8x8K020978; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 06:08:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 06:08:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=51QIUodz8ih7WlQYJprMzBDlFxRwBebHF3E3yEzO1LGew4U7mUOBoMP+B0RWVzd/ts3KxzS4Tp3QJJtruvPBIMLy7UHhFOX/idLnqf0YSiKBhNwZGuK+1cIdLlRia+II73/39teSeMV8u4slB9R7LYFA1++DlhrhcgZvThYai/4= ; Message-ID: <20050404130851.26731.qmail web51704.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 06:08:51 -0700 (PDT) From: Terry Blanton Subject: [OT] Segway Polo To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-452704494-1112620131=:26674" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58897 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-452704494-1112620131=:26674 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Could be the next spectator sport: http://tinyurl.com/4wra6 or http://news.com.com/Thwack%252C+whirl%252C+whir...Segway+polo+is+born/2100-1041_3-5650074.html?tag=nefd.top --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more. --0-452704494-1112620131=:26674 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Could be the next spectator sport:
 
 
or
 

Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more. --0-452704494-1112620131=:26674-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 4 06:16:14 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j34DG2Vv024298; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 06:16:03 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j34DG0OV024248; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 06:16:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 06:16:00 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=fLQb2zDgAV7vbbRACRh14KVTXJhPXAN6Bag4iJP0a5pKOA2fr1VOAcCQzt5jlIJe; Message-ID: <410-22005414121550790 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: FLAW; Field-Light Activated Water Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 07:15:50 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940ea016aa4dc6f6abb944fef7ba155d958350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.48 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58898 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Musings. Can the high field at the liquid-solid interface for water in stream beds or at a water-metal interface act as a "catalyst" that allows photon energy to be stored up in the water molecules? http://www.stanford.edu/~dlaser/electrokinetics_and_eof/electrokinetics_and_eof.htm http://www1.physik.tu-muenchen.de/lehrstuehle/T30g/publications/CPL_H2O_dist.pdf Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

Musings.
 
Can the high field at the liquid-solid interface for water in stream beds or at a water-metal interface act as
a "catalyst" that allows photon energy to be stored up in the water molecules?
 
 

Frederick

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 4 07:48:43 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j34EmbVv001766; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 07:48:38 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j34EmXEL001719; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 07:48:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 07:48:33 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: "Vortex" Subject: RE: 180 mpg... was Plug-in Prius Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 10:50:25 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <06a901c538cd$3bd393e0$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58899 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: You write: >Caveat: the average for this may be below 88%, depending on >whose figures you use... BUT there are bona fide small >electric motors (CISIRO) which get over 98% efficiency and >batteries which are over 90% - giving a net of 88%. Why not >use the best available if you are going for operating >economy and not lowest capital cost? EPA rated 48 mpg, vs 27.5mpg CAFE average. That's closer to 42% rather than 88%. I couldn't find any info on electric motor efficiency of the prius, but presumably you'd want to drive over 25 mph... ICE : 6 dollars, 3 gallons, 85.5 Kbtu available energy. ELECTRIC : 6 dollars, 35 kwh, 128 Kbtu available energy So it is somewhat advantageous to plug in the car now, more so if you are city driving and can keep the electric motor in gear most of the time. My point was that if you kept the car below 25mpg you could get 10000mpg or whatever, but you're still paying for the electricity ( something the Times article was neglecting to mention ). What's the mpg breakeven point by extending your mileage with the local nuclear power plant? K. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 4 07:56:48 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j34EubVv006461; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 07:56:37 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j34EuZlg006432; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 07:56:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 07:56:35 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=x1FfP06XmnSRJ6OMJugCPHm5FrcH5UcHjJC0ieR+W7ba5Z3KG3m0yb32MG3eeZhbi5qyQQSe7i0miEnAaC3sv3o5GdrGGJebKMUNqk2gQzSc8wvbFAZFlZbJbztTcRscBWzzPQky7vDXfaSfV8+jrqBvLLotK753QFsDJWJVpG0= ; Message-ID: <20050404145624.3933.qmail web51707.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 07:56:24 -0700 (PDT) From: Terry Blanton Subject: Toshiba Press Release To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1437264170-1112626584=:2231" Resent-Message-ID: <4pvJb.A.WkB.iWVUCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58900 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-1437264170-1112626584=:2231 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Here is the actual press item: http://www.toshiba.co.jp/about/press/2005_03/pr2901.htm __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --0-1437264170-1112626584=:2231 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Here is the actual press item:
 

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com --0-1437264170-1112626584=:2231-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 4 08:32:24 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j34FWGVv028989; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 08:32:16 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j34FWDUR028963; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 08:32:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 08:32:13 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <003e01c5392b$27ef5360$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: , "Vortex" References: Subject: Re: 180 mpg... was Plug-in Prius Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 08:29:52 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58901 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: K, > ICE : 6 dollars, 3 gallons, 85.5 Kbtu available energy. > ELECTRIC : 6 dollars, 35 kwh, 128 Kbtu available energy But this is basing gasoline at $2/gallon when it is already much closer to $3 in many places ($2.65 here) and I was basing my comparison on using $3 per gallon, which obviously makes it look far more advantageous to use electric. Do you think the price of gasoline will drop, rather than rise? It seem pretty certain to me that it will get to $3 just in time for the summer driving season, but who knows?. > So it is somewhat advantageous to plug in the car now, more so if you are city driving and can keep the electric motor in gear most of the time. My point was that if you kept the car below 25mpg.... In the Times article they are not staying below 25 mph, but adding more/better batteries and hacking the control system. If you get twice the bang-for-the buck using electricity from the grid, then every one is better off ... excepting OPEC and the "seven sisters", that is ;-) Does this mean that you are taking the "Daily News" instead of the Times? And as Horace mentioned there does seem to be an added synergy in adding solar panels to the roof. Keeping the batteries topped off with solar extends their life, means fewer batteries needed for an average trip, and there is also some evidence of an anomaly previously mentioned, about the high frequency trickle charge - so perhaps even when driving, if you can add a reverse HF trickle charge back to the battery from solar, this could be advantageous but that could be only for lead-acid "desulferization", or whatever they call it. All and all, with the new battery technology coming in as well, this is pretty exciting stuff. I see some real indications of seemingly unrelated things coming together on top of the Prius theme, giving us the possibility (in the near term) for an "emergent" automotive drive system, not requiring hydrogen, which can have a big impact on extending oil supplies and curtailing the price increase - maybe even reverse the price of oil. For instance, I would not want to be an investor in fuel cells, given what might be happening now with hybrid systems, as fuel cells demand a much greater change to the infrastructure. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 4 08:58:21 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j34Fw9Vv014468; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 08:58:10 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j34Fw4uK014411; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 08:58:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 08:58:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=iASSiC+qxfj3G+168zsDG1GSVVfQq4T9Wbv+TTr3nHVsvquxtplhW4HeW7v078D8; Message-ID: <410-22005414145740740 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: FLAW; Field-Light Activated Water Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 09:57:40 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94032cbea941683a277cbae13a72620fe53350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.41 Resent-Message-ID: <_JvOrD.A._gD.LQWUCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58902 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII http://www.stanford.edu/~dlaser/electrokinetics_and_eof/electrokinetics_and_eof.htm writes: "At the interface between a glass surface and a liquid such as water, silanol molecules (SiOH) on the glass surface react with free hydroxyl ions (OH-) in the water, forming Si(OH)2- and leaving the glass surface negatively charged. Free H+ ions in the water are attracted by the negatively-charged surface and accumulate near it. As a result, although the interiors of both the glass and the liquid remain electrically neutral, an electrical potential gradient arises in the vicinity of the interface." Then, why not SiOH + CO3 - - <-----> SiCO3 - + OH - or such? It seems to me that a water solution containing CO2 in glass or quartz, free Si++ or other silicon cation species could exist and "plate out as crud" on the Pd or Ni Cathodes. A source of "nuclear active sites", Ed? Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

 
"At the interface between a glass surface and a liquid such as water, silanol molecules (SiOH) on the glass surface react with free hydroxyl ions (OH-) in the water, forming Si(OH)2- and leaving the glass surface negatively charged.  Free H+ ions in the water are attracted by the negatively-charged surface and accumulate near it.  As a result, although the interiors of both the glass and the liquid remain electrically neutral, an electrical potential gradient arises in the vicinity of the interface."
 
Then, why not  SiOH + CO3 - -      <----->    SiCO3 -   +   OH -  or such?
 
It seems to me that a water solution containing CO2 in glass or quartz, free Si++  or other silicon cation species could
exist and "plate out as crud" on the Pd or Ni  Cathodes.
 
A source of "nuclear active sites",  Ed?
 
Frederick

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 4 09:15:15 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j34GF3Vv025324; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 09:15:04 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j34GEo8u025192; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 09:14:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 09:14:50 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: "Vortex" Subject: RE: FLAW; Field-Light Activated Water Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 12:16:27 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <410-22005414145740740 earthlink.net> X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: <58vxfD.A.lJG.4fWUCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58903 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Viva polywater, Fred! K. -----Original Message----- From: Frederick Sparber [mailto:fjsparber earthlink.net] Sent: Monday, April 04, 2005 10:58 AM To: vortex-l Subject: Re: FLAW; Field-Light Activated Water http://www.stanford.edu/~dlaser/electrokinetics_and_eof/electrokinetics_and_eof.htm writes: "At the interface between a glass surface and a liquid such as water, silanol molecules (SiOH) on the glass surface react with free hydroxyl ions (OH-) in the water, forming Si(OH)2- and leaving the glass surface negatively charged. Free H+ ions in the water are attracted by the negatively-charged surface and accumulate near it. As a result, although the interiors of both the glass and the liquid remain electrically neutral, an electrical potential gradient arises in the vicinity of the interface." Then, why not SiOH + CO3 - - <-----> SiCO3 - + OH - or such? It seems to me that a water solution containing CO2 in glass or quartz, free Si++ or other silicon cation species could exist and "plate out as crud" on the Pd or Ni Cathodes. A source of "nuclear active sites", Ed? Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 4 09:36:13 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j34Ga3Vv003087; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 09:36:04 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j34GZtRa003009; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 09:35:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 09:35:55 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 08:37:22 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Rail Gun Recoil Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58904 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 2:33 PM 4/4/5, John Berry wrote: >Even if Ampere is correct as long as there is displacement current the >magnetic force from the vacuum displacement current would push on the >rail in a longitudinal manner. [snip] > / > / > / >------------------------------------------------------------------------/ >I >I >------------------------------------------------------------------------\ > \ > \ > \ [snip] >By having the conductors diverge a bit more thrust might be created, but >clearly the angle shown here is too steep. You might want to check out US Pat. 5,142,861, by Schlicher et al. Column 8 line 12, states: "For two dimensional loop antennas, the integration of all forces around the conductor path equals zero. In three dimensions, this is not necesarily the case." Schlicher's predicted a force of 0.1 N to 0.4 N for 1000 amps for his conical version of the above. However, his analysis has errors. Also, NASA checked it out, or something similar, if I recall correctly. It is still ineresting Schlicher's proposed use of low temperature aluminum instead of a superconductor. Superconductor effects can thus be ignored or avoided, unless of utility. Zero power input is of great utility though, so a device that works in superconducting mode would be a huge plus. Unfortunately, the main problem is the flawed force analysis. I'll try to make a post you may find more relevant and interesting under the name "Coaxial Capacitor Thrustor." It is a design similar to what you suggest, but enhanced to 3d, and having other embellishements that I proposed in a collaboration some years ago. It didn't go anwwhere, due I think, to NASA's prior negative results in this arena. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 4 09:36:20 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j34GaBVv003170; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 09:36:12 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j34Ga9KD003144; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 09:36:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 09:36:09 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 08:37:25 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Coaxial Capacitor Thrustor Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58905 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: The following design of a resonant Coaxial Capacitor Thrustor indicates a thrust of about 1 kilogram force per kilowatt is feasible. DIAGRAM OF RESONANT OPEN ENDED THRUSTER Toroid o========o::: | | ---------- -----o-xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Capacitor plates | B1 P1 | | B2 P2 ----------------o-xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Note - B1 and B2 are the bends with partially unopposed self-forces P1 and P2 are power supply points It is assumed the toroid coil can be taken off vertically without inducing a net lateral force. Fig. 1 - DIAGRAM OF RESONANT OPEN ENDED THRUSTER For coaxial versions see Figs. 2 and 3 below. TOROIDAL CONDUCTOR Assume the conductor is made of tubing about 0.5 cm diameter. Small radius of the torus is 4 cm. Inner radius of torus is 15 cm. Major radius Mr is thus 19 cm. and outer radius is 23 cm. Total of N = 45 turns Coil area A is about 50 cm^2. Coil conductor length is about 11.3 m. Inductance is approximated by: L = u N^2 A (1/Mr) (1.26x10^-6 H) L = (1) (45^2) (50) (1/(19)) (1.26x10^-6 H) L = 6.71 mH CAPACITOR Plate size is 23 cm x 50 cm, giving an area of 1150 cm^2. Plate separation is 0.5 cm, of which 0.12 cm is 20 kV insulation with dielectric constant Ke = 8 and the rest is dielectric constant Ke = 1. Capacitance is given by: C = Ke (A/d) (8.85x1010^-12 F) For the insulating layer: Ci = 8 (1150/0.12) (8.85x10^-12 F) Ci = 6.79x10^-7 F For the air layer: Ca = 1 (1150/0.38) (8.85x10^-12 F) Ca = 2.68x10^-8 F Total capacitance: 1/Ct = 1/Ci + 1/Ca 1/Ct = 1.473x10^6 + 3.73x10^7 (1/F) Ct = 2.58x10^-8 F ALTERNATE DESIGN FOR CAPACITOR - COAXIAL A design with similar values can be obtained by making the capacitor coaxial In that case the plate fed by P1 would be the outer sheath and P2 the inner conductor. This has the advantage of minimizing external waste AF radiation. Except for concerns about resistance, the coax can be made as long as necessary to accommodate the desired capacitance. To approximate an equivalent coaxial capacitor to the above flat plate design we can use an inner diameter of 7 cm and an outer diameter of about 7.5 cm, and length still of about 50 cm. The thrust comes from the fact the trailing end of capacitor is open, which is clear with the flat plate capacitor design, but not so clear with the coaxial design. Proof of that the two are equivalent may require running a high resolution FEA model. However, it appears that both are equivalent, and in any case that this point is comparatively moot in that the principle issue involved, namely waste audio frequency radiation, is a comparatively small issue compared to the issue of whether the basic concept works. RESONANT FREQUENCY The resonant frequency f0 is given by: f0 = 1/(2 Pi (L*C)^0.5) f0 = 1/(2* 3.1415 * 1/(1.73118x10^-10)^0.5) f0 = 12,096 Hz REACTANCE AND IMPEDANCE Capacitive reactance Xc is given by: Xc = 1/(2 Pi f0 C) = 1/(2 * 3.1415 * 12,096 * 2.58x10^-8) ohms Xc = 510 ohms Inductive reactance Xl is given by: Xl = 2 Pi f0 L Xl = 2 * 3.1415 * 12,096 * 6.71x10^-3 ohms Xl = 510 ohms (check) The impedance Z = (R^2 + (Xl-Xc)^2)^0.5 is thus equal to resistance R. POWER AND CURRENT If we assume a coil resistance of 1 ohm per 1000 m, or 0.001 ohms per meter, we have a coil resistance of 11.3 m * 0.001 ohms per meter = 0.0113 ohms. Assume the power supplied Ps = 1500 W. If It is the resonance tank current then the heat Ph dissipated in the coil is given by: Ps = Ph = 1500 W = It^2*(0.0113 ohms) So: It = 364 A We have a very high Q coil, because: Q = Xc/R = 510/0.0113 Q = 1858 This gives Is the supply current: Is = It / Q = 636/1858 Is = 0.196 A And the supply voltage: Vs = Ps / Is = 1500/ 0.196 Vs = 7653 V The apparent power in the tank circuit is: Pt = It * Vt = 7653 * 364 W Pt = 2.79 MW MAXIMUM RADIATION FORCE Note that the above numbers all ignore radiation. Additional power must be supplied to account for any radiation. However, note that, at 1500 W power supplied, that the *force* from any radiation can be ignored. There is 2.94x10^9 photonic watts per kg-f of thrust, so the 1500 watts could only produce 5.1x10^-7 kg-f thrust. SELF-FORCE OF THE CLOSED END COAXIAL CAPACITOR Estimating the cap force for a capped coax: Fc = 1.61x10^-3 N Fc = 0.165 g-f Though small, a force of about 1/10 gram is sufficiently large to attempt detection, and to be very useful. Also, this rough design is only to provide sample calculations as a starting point for an actual experiment design. Such a device, or one of approximately the same dimensions can be fairly readily constructed from ordinary copper materials and a custom power supply. At 2.94x10^9 photonic watts per kg-f of thrust, the 10^-4 kg-f would require 294 kw of broadcast power. This number is way above the 1.5 kw power supplied, but interestingly way below the Pt = 2.79 MW apparent power of the resonant circuit. It is also notable that by using a larger inductance and capacitance that the frequency could be dropped further and thus Q improved by reducing the skin effect, and also by using a solid conductor for construction of the toroidal inductor. The estimated 0.5 cm wire size corresponds to 4 gage copper, which is 0.2533 ohms per 1000 feet, or 0.831 ohms per 1000 m. Using 3 gage copper, a 10 percent increase in wire diameter, gives only 0.659 ohms per 1000 m, thus improving R by 51 percent and net force by 230 percent, to 0.378 g-f. However, resistance of the capacitor has been ignored, due to its small length. Achieving low resonant frequency involves use of a much longer capacitor, thus capacitor resistance will play a significant role. Increasing capacitance by reducing the capacitor gap width is fruitless because net thrust is roughly proportional to the gap width. The thrust is essentially provided by the fact that some (angular) percent of a closed current loop is open. CRYOGENIC ALUMINUM Aluminum has a conductivity of 0.377x10^6 ohm^-1 cm^-1, while copper is 0.596 x10^6 ohm^-1 cm^-1, thus copper provides 58 percent better conductivity, but 250 percent better thrust per watt. Aluminum has advantages over copper for propulsion due to a 70 percent savings in weight. At 21 deg. kelvin high purity aluminum resistance drops to less than 1/500 to 1/1000 times that of room temperature, thus providing an over 100,000 improvement in thrust/watt over copper. At this amplification the 0.1 g-f thrust becomes 10 kg-f. This amply repays the cost of 1500 W of refrigeration, which in space can hopefully be provided at a power cost of less than 10 kW. If so, a thrust/power ratio of about 1 kg-f/kW is achieved. SUPERCONDUCTING RESONATOR The lower resonant frequency achieved by use of much larger capacitors and inductors should permit use of superconductors, with a much larger net thrust feasible, and lower refrigeration cost. The major impediment to the use of superconductors may be the radiation from SC surfaces exposed to high voltage gradients. COAXIAL DRIVE CONFIGURATIONS FOR SHIP Figs 2 nd 3 show coaxial direves as they might be implimented in a large ship. ------------ | | | --------------------------------- |===T-------------------------------- | --------------------------------- | | ------------ Note - T represents power, oscillator, and toroidal coil unit Fig. 2 - Open ended coaxial drive with bulged power housing ------------ | | | --------------------------------- |===T-------------------------------- | | --------------------------------- | | ------------ Note - T represents power, oscillator, and toroidal coil unit Fig. 3 - Closed ended coaxial drive with bulged power housing The toroidal coil and osciallor (denoted "T") can be enclosed in a bulge at the end of the coaxial coil. External power could be supplied by leads inside a smaller "head" coaxial lead, denoted "===", or the power unit, probably a nuclear reactor, could be enclosed within the bulged power housing itself. It is notable that, provided the central conductor terminates well before the end of the coaxial sheath, an end cap on the sheath should have no effect other than to capture or reflect any radiation. As shown above, this can only have negligible effect on thrust. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 4 10:05:29 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j34H5BVv019859; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 10:05:12 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j34H55av019788; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 10:05:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 10:05:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <425173CB.1020605 pobox.com> Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2005 13:05:15 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.5) Gecko/20050105 Debian/1.7.5-1 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Rail Gun Recoil References: <4250A795.9050003@ihug.co.nz> In-Reply-To: <4250A795.9050003 ihug.co.nz> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58906 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Berry wrote: > Horace, thank you for your detailed analysis. > The reason I was asking was because I thought that if the forces are > as Grassmann insists are perpendicular then removing the battery and > instead using high frequency alternating current in what is now an > open circuit should give rise to thrust. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > + ~ - > I > I > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > - ~ + > > The force on the I's would be perpendicular with no force on any other > segment. > However with further thought, the only way the above would fail to > generate thrust is if the forces are as Ampere claims (longitudinal) > without any displacement current in the vacuum between the two rails. > > Even if Ampere is correct as long as there is displacement current the > magnetic force from the vacuum displacement current would push on the > rail in a longitudinal manner. It's worth keeping in mind that EM theory can be built up using the principle of superposition and a knowledge of how just two moving (accelerated) charges interact. In the case of a two-charge system, momentum is conserved, if one takes account of the momentum of the EM field radiated by the charges (assuming the charges are accelerated). And a system of just two interacting charges is pretty well understood, experimentally and theoretically, I think. So, unless one cares to discard the principle of superposition, one must conclude that momentum will be conserved in the case of a rail gun as well. So, the momentum you gain as the physical structure is propelled to the left must be exactly balanced by the momentum of the EM radiation the system is going to send out as the current in the system changes. In other words, it'll work, no doubt about that. But the thrust will be exactly analagous to the recoil felt by a directional radio antenna -- it will be equal and opposite to the momentum carried off by the radio waves being generated as the capacitor is charged. (I don't pretend to be able to match Horace's knowledge of the details here, of course! I just thought an intuitive comment about how and why the momentum equation still balances might be apropos.) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 4 10:09:36 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j34H9OVv024229; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 10:09:25 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j34H9D6I024110; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 10:09:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 10:09:13 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Rail Gun Recoil Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 13:11:05 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58907 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Horace, >The main reason is that the sum of the forces around a closed circuit is >zero. If a circuit is analysed in two parts, the force on one part (the Actually, my reasoning was simply that forces will arise in inductors carrying a constant current such that the induction of the circuit will increase. That is the case with my example of a permeable member being drawn into a coil, and is the case here where the total inductance of the hairpin loop of wire increases as the armature moves away from the stationary coil. I agree with your analysis, although I'm reluctant to make a blanket statement about the impossibility of a motive force arising in electromagnetic systems. For a long time it was thought that levitating permanent magnets was impossible due to Earnshaw's theorem. It never hurts to do that experiment. K. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 4 10:53:38 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j34HrOVv025884; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 10:53:25 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j34HrMAZ025846; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 10:53:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 10:53:22 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050404134517.02bc0e10 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2005 13:52:59 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: 180 mpg... was Plug-in Prius In-Reply-To: <003e01c5392b$27ef5360$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> References: <003e01c5392b$27ef5360$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_12643187==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58908 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_12643187==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I expect the automobile companies are unhappy with people who modify the cars and add banks of batteries because these cars are carefully engineered, high-tech gadgets. Adding batteries probably voids the warranty. If there is a malfunction or is the main batteries wear out quickly there could be disputes and lawsuits over who is at fault. Nevertheless, it is a good idea to extend the range of these cars with onboard batteries. Electricity at $.16 per minute is rather expensive. I think in most locations an electric car would be cheaper than hybrid gasoline car. - Jed --=====================_12643187==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" I expect the automobile companies are unhappy with people who modify the cars and add banks of batteries because these cars are carefully engineered, high-tech gadgets. Adding batteries probably voids the warranty. If there is a malfunction or is the main batteries wear out quickly there could be disputes and lawsuits over who is at fault.

Nevertheless, it is a good idea to extend the range of these cars with onboard batteries. Electricity at $.16 per minute is rather expensive. I think in most locations an electric car would be cheaper than hybrid gasoline car.

- Jed
 --=====================_12643187==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 4 11:34:34 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j34IYFVv016087; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 11:34:15 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j34IY7g5016024; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 11:34:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 11:34:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <3rr9ri$tjecrg mxip18a.cluster1.charter.net> X-Ironport-AV: i="3.91,147,1110171600"; d="scan'208"; a="993473392:sNHT18737748" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.12 (webedge20-101-197-20030912) From: To: CC: Subject: Re: Toshiba Press Release Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 18:33:51 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <140BuD.A.I6D.diYUCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58909 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Forgive my ignorance, but could someone clarify whether Toshiba's recent battery breakthrough actually means that an all-electric car is actually feasible, or would some form of a hybridization still be the norm? What struck me as most poignant was one of Mike Carrell's original comments stating that charging a large vehicle friendly mass of these batteries at maximum warp speed (at your local "service" station) would likely vaporize them! I would also think that the electrical cables themselves would have to be pretty thick to accommodate the amperage. A typical driver making the connection to his car might feel a tad intimidated considering how much juice would have to be flowing through the bottleneck for the next couple of minutes. What if it's a rainy day? Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com > > From: Terry Blanton > Date: 2005/04/04 Mon PM 02:56:24 GMT > To: vortex-l eskimo.com > Subject: Toshiba Press Release > > Here is the actual press item: > > http://www.toshiba.co.jp/about/press/2005_03/pr2901.htm > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 4 14:07:54 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j34L7fVv019596; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 14:07:42 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j34L7dXw019581; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 14:07:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 14:07:39 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=WTTr4f1Yi9Bysg+Fo20JDzAil/d10g3Ss/dzvgJk/Wg3n7QMNztgNo4c7WqK1ny9t466ahsUTek4u3+rpbaZJc/6tQPvcFNOwYzaBUmyL+ayqOsI1QgmwVzOTG/CjwDJxAfxSyQf4oinxEOJpMbNOtkKLLg5nFSgNmy1wKPAIis= ; Message-ID: <20050404210731.10069.qmail web51705.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 14:07:31 -0700 (PDT) From: Terry Blanton Subject: [OT] The Next Pope To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-485620343-1112648851=:8671" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58911 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-485620343-1112648851=:8671 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii http://www.hackwriters.com/Lustiger.htm This Buddhist Priest says a former Jew, and Archbishop of Paris, will occupy the Throne of Peter. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --0-485620343-1112648851=:8671 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

http://www.hackwriters.com/Lustiger.htm

This Buddhist Priest says a former Jew, and Archbishop of Paris, will occupy the Throne of Peter.

 

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com --0-485620343-1112648851=:8671-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 4 14:24:17 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j34LO9Vv029476; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 14:24:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j34LO4m2029446; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 14:24:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 14:24:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: <4c4f5b16-b8e3-4d0b-8552-3a4689f8df58> Message-ID: <051801c5395c$9a246ca0$8745ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <3rr9ri$tjecrg mxip18a.cluster1.charter.net> Subject: Re: Toshiba Press Release Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 17:22:58 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58912 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Steve wrote: > Forgive my ignorance, but could someone clarify whether Toshiba's recent battery breakthrough actually means that an all-electric car is actually feasible, or would some form of a hybridization still be the norm? Hybridization. > > What struck me as most poignant was one of Mike Carrell's original comments stating that charging a large vehicle friendly mass of these batteries at maximum warp speed (at your local "service" station) would likely vaporize them! I would also think that the electrical cables themselves would have to be pretty thick to accommodate the amperage. A typical driver making the connection to his car might feel a tad intimidated considering how much juice would have to be flowing through the bottleneck for the next couple of minutes. He should be. My example was all electric on a long trip, making a pit stop at a turnpike filling station, worst case. > > What if it's a rainy day? Doesn't matter. Any such delivery system would be designed to work under wet conditions. Current automotive systems work at 12 volts, which is quite safe. Advanced systems with electric drives would be more like 48 volts, which is lethal if you are all wet and get a good contact, like a sweating welder building a ship. Hacking a hybrid to use house current recharging can make sense if sensibly done. Toyota and Honda may omit charging sockets to emphasize that the hybrids are not plug-ins. Providing an engineered connector system makes some sense as discussed here. But in the larger eco-sense, you have ot consider the whole system and what fuels are being burned to provide that electricity, and the system losses involved. Locally, it provides the advantages of an electric, and you don't have to buy another car to visit Aunt Matilda in the next state. The maximum discharge current for the Toshiba battery is not stated. With lead acid batteries you can get a very high current drain, as for auto starter motors. to be used for transportation, the Toshiba batteries would have to dleiver high peak power for acceleration, and accept full energy in dynamic braking. They will be more costly than other betteries, but may deliver a significant advantage to cars designed for them. Regards, Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 4 15:04:50 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j34M4YVv013095; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 15:04:35 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j34M4TQr013040; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 15:04:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 15:04:29 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=J+rP+6tiXvRp//Lzk8IgAZyjpGLUc+nTHoopgH7NuBV/uBpv4POGnAhdJ5FgxmrhE54mU77ZdjEoWXFu0+IXcSq8TylxiW2ZTEBFFj/mUOnvLmoePVqNoq3sgzLV/CfOpgvtLT/jvbiWkMb4AlMs/ygjVjV4wPiVY1B4pJJcEIk= Message-ID: Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 15:04:18 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [OT] The Next Pope In-Reply-To: <20050404210731.10069.qmail web51705.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 References: <20050404210731.10069.qmail web51705.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j34M4MVv012957 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58913 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: hes off. the next pope, via the prophecies of malachy (the old documents mentioned) is the glory of the olives. the pope AFTER him is supposed to be the final pope, peter the roman, though thats from later versions. On Apr 4, 2005 2:07 PM, Terry Blanton wrote: > > > http://www.hackwriters.com/Lustiger.htm > > This Buddhist Priest says a former Jew, and Archbishop of Paris, will occupy > the Throne of Peter. > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com -- "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 4 18:03:49 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3513eNL018987; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 18:03:40 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3513XnA018930; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 18:03:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 18:03:33 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <007e01c5397a$f937bc60$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: Why the U.S. Needs More Nuclear Power Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 18:01:17 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_007B_01C53940.4C636640" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58914 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_007B_01C53940.4C636640 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Very authoritative article in: http://www.city-journal.org/html/15_1_nuclear_power.html "Why the U.S. Needs More Nuclear Power" Peter W. Huber, Mark P. Mills "No conceivable mix of solar and wind could come close to supplying the = trillions of additional kilowatt-hours of power we=92ll soon need"=20 ...especially if automotive recharging for hybrids gets to be more = popular.... "Burning $2-a-gallon gasoline, the power generated by current hybrid-car = engines costs about 35 cents per kilowatt-hour. Many utilities, though, = sell off-peak power for much less: 2 to 4 cents per kilowatt-hour. The = nationwide residential price is still only 8.5 cents or so. (Peak rates = in Manhattan are higher because of the city=92s heavy dependence on oil = and gas, but not enough to change the basic arithmetic.) Grid kilowatts = are cheaper because cheaper fuels generate them and because utility = power plants run a lot more efficiently than car engines." Also Honda announces a new "luxury hybrid" http://www.mysanantonio.com/business/stories/MYSA040105.1G.williams.18d4e= d89a.html Under the hood of the Accord is a 3.0-liter V-6 engine with variable = cylinder management, which deactivates half of the cylinders during = cruising to help decrease fuel consumption. The hybrid system is rated = at 255 horsepower (vs. 240 for the regular V-6 Accord), yet has fuel = economy comparable to that of a four-cylinder gas-powered Accord. And Ford's new Escape hybrid is already selling like hotcakes and in = short supply. Toyota will introduce its luxury hybrid soon. These hybrid cars, combined with will make a difference. Jones BTW Peter Huber is a lawyer, writer, and energy expert. He earned a = doctorate in Mechanical Engineering from M.I.T., and served as Associate = Professor at M.I.T. for six years. His law degree is from the Harvard = Law School. Peter Huber is the author of: "Hard Green: Saving the Environment from the Environmentalists" (A = Conservative Manifesto) (Basic Books, 2000).=20 ------=_NextPart_000_007B_01C53940.4C636640 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Very authoritative article in:
http://= www.city-journal.org/html/15_1_nuclear_power.html
 
"Why the U.S. Needs More Nuclear Power"
Peter W. Huber, Mark P.=20 Mills
 
"No conceivable mix of solar and wind could come close to supplying = the=20 trillions of additional kilowatt-hours of power we=92ll soon need" =
 
...especially if automotive recharging for hybrids gets to be = more=20 popular....
 
"Burning $2-a-gallon gasoline, the power generated by current = hybrid-car=20 engines costs about 35 cents per kilowatt-hour. Many utilities, though, = sell=20 off-peak power for much less: 2 to 4 cents per kilowatt-hour. The = nationwide=20 residential price is still only 8.5 cents or so. (Peak rates in = Manhattan are=20 higher because of the city=92s heavy dependence on oil and gas, but not = enough to=20 change the basic arithmetic.) Grid kilowatts are cheaper because cheaper = fuels=20 generate them and because utility power plants run a lot more = efficiently than=20 car engines."
 
Also Honda announces a new "luxury hybrid"
http://www.mysanantonio.com/business/stories/MYSA04010= 5.1G.williams.18d4ed89a.html
Under the hood of the Accord is a 3.0-liter V-6 engine with = variable=20 cylinder management, which deactivates half of the cylinders during = cruising to=20 help decrease fuel consumption. The hybrid system is rated at 255 = horsepower=20 (vs. 240 for the regular V-6 Accord), yet has fuel economy comparable to = that of=20 a four-cylinder gas-powered Accord.
 
And Ford's new Escape hybrid is already selling like hotcakes = and in=20 short supply. Toyota will introduce its luxury hybrid soon.
 
These hybrid cars, combined with  will make a = difference.
 
Jones
 
BTW Peter Huber is a lawyer, writer, and energy expert. He earned a = doctorate in Mechanical Engineering from M.I.T., and served as Associate = Professor at M.I.T. for six years. His law degree is from the Harvard = Law=20 School.
 
Peter Huber is the author of:
"Hard Green: Saving the Environment from the Environmentalists" =  (A=20 Conservative Manifesto) (Basic Books, 2000).
 
------=_NextPart_000_007B_01C53940.4C636640-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 4 18:43:47 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j351hbjZ002915; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 18:43:38 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j351hYEJ002888; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 18:43:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 18:43:35 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <008801c53980$90b97ec0$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: The "Extreme" Hybrid Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 18:41:19 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0085_01C53945.E3F5F180" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: <26pQW.A.Dt.F1eUCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58915 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0085_01C53945.E3F5F180 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Speaking of the "plug-in hybrid...." AFS TRINITY UNVEILS 250 MILE PER GALLON VEHICLE PROGRAM AT GIRVAN = MEETING SANTA CLARA, CA, February 23, 2005 . . . Privately-held AFS Trinity = Power Corporation unveiled a flywheel-based technology at a Girvan = Institute meeting today that the company expects will make it possible = for the average American driver to achieve more than 250 miles per = gallon fuel economy in a sedan and 200 miles per gallon in an SUV.=20 The "Extreme Hybrid" (tm) drive train is an advanced =93plug-in = hybrid=94 using a ** flywheel** plus batteries and a small ICE, but = which gets most of its power from the electric power grid, not the local = gas station.=20 =93Vehicles that employ AFS Trinity=92s Extreme Hybrid drive train will = connect at night to house current through a wireless inductive coupler = to charge their car=92s batteries and flywheel. We expect it to run for = 40 to 50 miles without burning a single drop of gasoline."=20 Since most Americans drive less than 40 miles most days that means the = average person would burn no gasoline on most days. The internal = combustion engine only kicks in when one needs to go farther in a single = day. If the driver needs to travel further than 40 miles, The Extreme = Hybrid drive train will enable a car to go up to 500 miles as a = conventional hybrid. Why a flywheel? I believe that Richard had some thoughts on that some = time ago, but basically flywheels will last pretty much forever , while = batteries need periodic replacement. Jones And speaking of possible synergy... if one is going to incorporate a = vacuum enclosed flywheel anyway... is there any advantage in passing the = drive current through the flywheel circumference (as a cathode) in order = to get a centrifugal boost? My recollection of past posts about this = from Horace and others is that the boost is not significant enough to = warrant this expense only for that purpose - as the acceleration is = small compared to other means... but is it significant enough to = implement, if you are going to have a flywheel in the design anyway, so = that it is not an added expense ? ------=_NextPart_000_0085_01C53945.E3F5F180 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Speaking of the "plug-in hybrid...."
 
AFS TRINITY UNVEILS 250 MILE PER GALLON  VEHICLE PROGRAM AT = GIRVAN=20 MEETING
 
SANTA CLARA, CA, February 23, 2005 . . . Privately-held AFS Trinity = Power=20 Corporation unveiled a flywheel-based technology at a Girvan Institute = meeting=20 today that the company expects will make it possible for the average = American=20 driver to achieve more than 250 miles per gallon fuel economy in a sedan = and 200=20 miles per gallon in an SUV.
 
The "Extreme Hybrid" (tm) drive train is an advanced = =93plug-in hybrid=94=20 using a ** flywheel** plus batteries and a small ICE, but = which gets=20 most of its power from the electric power grid, not the local gas = station.=20
 
=93Vehicles that employ AFS Trinity=92s Extreme Hybrid drive train = will connect=20 at night to house current through a wireless inductive coupler to charge = their=20 car=92s batteries and flywheel. We expect it to run for 40 to 50 miles = without=20 burning a single drop of gasoline."
 
Since most Americans drive less than 40 miles most days that means = the=20 average person would burn no gasoline on most days. The internal = combustion=20 engine only kicks in when one needs to go farther in a single day. If = the driver=20 needs to travel further than 40 miles, The Extreme Hybrid drive train = will=20 enable a car to go up to 500 miles as a conventional hybrid.
 
Why a flywheel? I believe that Richard had some thoughts on that = some time=20 ago, but basically flywheels will last pretty much forever , while = batteries=20 need periodic replacement.
 
Jones
 
And speaking of possible synergy... if one is going to incorporate = a vacuum=20 enclosed flywheel anyway... is there any advantage in passing the drive = current=20 through the flywheel circumference (as a cathode) in order to get a = centrifugal=20 boost?  My recollection of past posts about this from Horace and = others is=20 that the boost is not significant enough to warrant this expense only = for that=20 purpose - as the acceleration is small compared to other means... but is = it=20 significant enough to implement, if you are going to have a flywheel in = the=20 design anyway, so that it is not an added expense ?
------=_NextPart_000_0085_01C53945.E3F5F180-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 4 20:21:32 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j353LP23004275; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 20:21:25 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j353L63W004157; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 20:21:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 20:21:06 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <001201c5398e$7ae08180$ba037841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: The " Extreme " Hybrid Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 22:20:54 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000E_01C53964.918284D0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-99.2 required=4.0 tests=HTML_30_40,HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58916 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C53964.918284D0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000F_01C53964.918284D0" ------=_NextPart_001_000F_01C53964.918284D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankThe AFS-Trinity Power Corporation announcement must be given pause. These people have been around the block a few times. Looking at applications for flywheel systems brings the question of = stationary vs. moving platform systems. That is a stretch if for no = other reason than the gyro effect. Supposedly AFS has the answer. Way back in the 1950's when I was young and daring, our group conceived = a flywheel as a perfect sphere and positioning and power transfer was = via ultra magnets. The ideas were great but without ultra magnets and = materials science plus the technology to make a perfect sphere the ideas = were put in the " funstuff" file. Today, we have the ultra magnet technology, emerging technology in = molecular/chem/ hybrid ferrometallic/ceramics that can be constructed a = molecule at a time into perfect spheres that can withstand the extreme = rpm required. These spheres could be as small as 30 cm and self gimbal = inside a vacuum housing. I fear that AFS Trinity has spent way too many dollars ( of theirs and = the Governments) in developing a flwheel design that is a step in the = right direction but not a product that will sell for a profit. Can you imagine the power available from a compact flywheel spinning at = 750,000 rpm? Try one in the rear wheel of your Harley for a thrill!! Richard ------=_NextPart_001_000F_01C53964.918284D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
The AFS-Trinity Power Corporation announcement = must be=20 given pause.
 
These people have been around the block a few=20 times.
 
Looking at applications for flywheel systems = brings the=20 question of stationary vs. moving platform systems. That is a stretch if = for no=20 other reason than the gyro effect. Supposedly AFS has the = answer.
 
Way back in the 1950's when I was young and = daring, our=20 group conceived a flywheel as a perfect sphere and positioning and power = transfer was via ultra magnets. The ideas were great but without ultra = magnets=20 and materials science plus the technology to make a perfect sphere the = ideas=20 were put in the " funstuff" file.
 
Today, we have the ultra magnet=20 technology,  emerging technology in molecular/chem/ hybrid=20 ferrometallic/ceramics that can be constructed a molecule at a=20 time into perfect spheres that can withstand  the extreme rpm=20 required. These spheres could be as small as  30 cm and self gimbal = inside=20 a vacuum housing.
 
I fear that AFS Trinity has spent way too many = dollars (=20 of theirs and the Governments) in developing a flwheel design that = is a=20 step in the right direction but not a product that will sell for a=20 profit.
 
Can you imagine the power available from = a  compact=20 flywheel spinning at 750,000 rpm? Try one in the rear wheel of your = Harley for a=20 thrill!!
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_000F_01C53964.918284D0-- ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C53964.918284D0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000d01c5398e$7a4c57d0$ba037841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C53964.918284D0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 4 22:07:35 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3557LPX016348; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 22:07:21 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3556qtH015896; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 22:06:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 22:06:52 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42521CDC.30205 ihug.co.nz> Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 17:06:36 +1200 From: John Berry User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Toshiba Press Release References: <3rr9ri$tjecrg mxip18a.cluster1.charter.net> <051801c5395c$9a246ca0$8745ccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> In-Reply-To: <051801c5395c$9a246ca0$8745ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58917 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: But if it can recharge in 1 minute then an all electric car could be topped up along the way, at lights or service stations. All electric cars could be made much lighter. Sure you can't go anywhere remote, but still. (popular places could have charging locations, as long as there is power in the area charging isn't hard to set up) Mike Carrell wrote: >Steve wrote: > > > > >>Forgive my ignorance, but could someone clarify whether Toshiba's recent >> >> >battery breakthrough actually means that an all-electric car is actually >feasible, or would some form of a hybridization still be the norm? > >Hybridization. > > >>What struck me as most poignant was one of Mike Carrell's original >> >> >comments stating that charging a large vehicle friendly mass of these >batteries at maximum warp speed (at your local "service" station) would >likely vaporize them! I would also think that the electrical cables >themselves would have to be pretty thick to accommodate the amperage. A >typical driver making the connection to his car might feel a tad intimidated >considering how much juice would have to be flowing through the bottleneck >for the next couple of minutes. > >He should be. My example was all electric on a long trip, making a pit stop >at a turnpike filling station, worst case. > > >>What if it's a rainy day? >> >> > >Doesn't matter. Any such delivery system would be designed to work under wet >conditions. Current automotive systems work at 12 volts, which is quite >safe. Advanced systems with electric drives would be more like 48 volts, >which is lethal if you are all wet and get a good contact, like a sweating >welder building a ship. > >Hacking a hybrid to use house current recharging can make sense if sensibly >done. Toyota and Honda may omit charging sockets to emphasize that the >hybrids are not plug-ins. Providing an engineered connector system makes >some sense as discussed here. But in the larger eco-sense, you have ot >consider the whole system and what fuels are being burned to provide that >electricity, and the system losses involved. Locally, it provides the >advantages of an electric, and you don't have to buy another car to visit >Aunt Matilda in the next state. > >The maximum discharge current for the Toshiba battery is not stated. With >lead acid batteries you can get a very high current drain, as for auto >starter motors. to be used for transportation, the Toshiba batteries would >have to dleiver high peak power for acceleration, and accept full energy in >dynamic braking. They will be more costly than other betteries, but may >deliver a significant advantage to cars designed for them. > >Regards, >Mike Carrell > > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 4 23:28:42 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j356SZPX019649; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 23:28:35 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j356SUJd019605; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 23:28:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 23:28:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: vortex mystery Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 16:28:20 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j356SQPX019469 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58918 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Horace Heffner's message of Thu, 31 Mar 2005 23:33:55 -0900: Hi Horace, Thanks. I have now derived the formula for myself, so I understand where it comes from, and what the various constants mean. I have also applied the same derivation principle to an active vortex that it constantly being "topped up" to maintain a constant level. The result for a vortex with no initial angular velocity can be found at http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/vortex-shape.mcd and http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/vortex-shape.gif I'm still thinking about how to correctly introduce an initial angular momentum. I may try it with a fixed angular velocity at the rim, and see what happens. (This is what one would get with tangential addition of water as in one of your previous drawings). BTW the initial restriction imposed on the angular velocity by the radius needing to be less than the drain radius doesn't appear to be serious. IOW even an initial angular velocity that produces just a slight dip in the surface would already be sufficient to yield OU according to the first document I posted. However, I'm now having second thoughts about the validity of that first document (http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/vortex.gif). >At 4:55 PM 4/1/5, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > >>In short, is h the distance up from the bottom of the tank, or the >>distance down from the surface? > > >The variable h is the distance up from the bottom of the tank in the >equations I provided. However, I should note that the equation from >Feynman's *Lectures on Physics*, Vol II, 40-10 ff, namely: > > h = k/R^2 + h0 > >takes h in the downward direction. However, Feynman's equation and >derivtion are well defined in the reference. > >Regards, > >Horace Heffner > Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 5 00:23:06 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j357MuPX008267; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 00:22:57 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j357Ms0Z008245; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 00:22:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 00:22:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42523CC5.4030508 ihug.co.nz> Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 19:22:45 +1200 From: John Berry User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Coaxial Capacitor Thrustor References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58919 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A Great analysis. It should work IMO even if the forces are as Ampere states unless there is no displacement current, in which case the closed end would be balanced within it's self, and the open end would have no force. Your analysis makes it tempting to try and build it, except that in air there really is a displacement current due to polarizing the air. A force would certainly be generated no doubt, but so would a stream of moving air. Of course maybe a better design would be to look at it from the point of view of the displacement current. Instead of trying to cheat Newton by creating an open circuit, we should be trying to use the vacuum as a propellant. (it would still be an open circuit but the focus would be of applying force to the vacuum) I'm not sure but I think this line of reasoning is only profitable if you assume Ampere longitudinal forces exist in which case the force is not created at the closed end but by the longitudinal forces on the 'rails' at the open end. / \ ---------------------------------- /| \ Force placed on vacuum/aether/virtual particle flux \| / not on circuit. ---------------------------------- \ / Key: - | wire, coax or ribbon forming what is essentially a distorted C / \ axis of force (ideally 45 degree slashes) The magnetic field which is currently created by a one turn open coil could instead be provided by a multi turn coil. Imagine a hoop coil with the two wires leaving the coil at the right and left, necessarily either the top or bottom must have one extra half turn. The wires are connected to capacitor plates, one on the right one on the left. This would significantly lower the operating frequency and probably lower radiated fields. Increasing the magnetic field is the same as increasing the strength of the magnets in a dc motor. As the vacuum is being polarized (the displacement current is flowing) it's motion through magnetic field thrusts it rearwards. The stronger the magnetic field created by the coil, the stronger the effect the magnetic field created by the vacuum displacement current has on the coil. I do have a concern with your diagram though, if you go from wire or coax to plates the current branch out to fill the plates. The problem is that the currents branching out should create a force in the opposite direction this becomes more clear if you substitute the capacitor plates with wires. But what can be done is to use the same metal you use with the plates with the same width for the whole construction (except the the toroid and wires leading up to it, doesn't matter that they are thinner as the currents must both converge and diverge going in and out. Horace Heffner wrote: >The following design of a resonant Coaxial Capacitor Thrustor indicates a >thrust of about 1 kilogram force per kilowatt is feasible. > > >DIAGRAM OF RESONANT OPEN ENDED THRUSTER > > Toroid > o========o::: > | | > ---------- -----o-xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Capacitor plates > | B1 P1 > | > | B2 P2 > ----------------o-xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx > > > Note - > > B1 and B2 are the bends with partially unopposed self-forces > > P1 and P2 are power supply points > > It is assumed the toroid coil can be taken off vertically > without inducing a net lateral force. > > > Fig. 1 - DIAGRAM OF RESONANT OPEN ENDED THRUSTER > >For coaxial versions see Figs. 2 and 3 below. > > >TOROIDAL CONDUCTOR > >Assume the conductor is made of tubing about 0.5 cm diameter. Small radius >of the torus is 4 cm. Inner radius of torus is 15 cm. Major radius Mr is >thus 19 cm. and outer radius is 23 cm. Total of N = 45 turns Coil area A >is about 50 cm^2. Coil conductor length is about 11.3 m. Inductance is >approximated by: > > L = u N^2 A (1/Mr) (1.26x10^-6 H) > > L = (1) (45^2) (50) (1/(19)) (1.26x10^-6 H) > > L = 6.71 mH > > >CAPACITOR > >Plate size is 23 cm x 50 cm, giving an area of 1150 cm^2. Plate separation >is 0.5 cm, of which 0.12 cm is 20 kV insulation with dielectric constant Ke >= 8 and the rest is dielectric constant Ke = 1. Capacitance is given by: > > C = Ke (A/d) (8.85x1010^-12 F) > >For the insulating layer: > > Ci = 8 (1150/0.12) (8.85x10^-12 F) > > Ci = 6.79x10^-7 F > >For the air layer: > > Ca = 1 (1150/0.38) (8.85x10^-12 F) > > Ca = 2.68x10^-8 F > >Total capacitance: > > 1/Ct = 1/Ci + 1/Ca > > 1/Ct = 1.473x10^6 + 3.73x10^7 (1/F) > > Ct = 2.58x10^-8 F > > >ALTERNATE DESIGN FOR CAPACITOR - COAXIAL > >A design with similar values can be obtained by making the capacitor >coaxial In that case the plate fed by P1 would be the outer sheath and P2 >the inner conductor. This has the advantage of minimizing external waste >AF radiation. Except for concerns about resistance, the coax can be made >as long as necessary to accommodate the desired capacitance. > >To approximate an equivalent coaxial capacitor to the above flat plate >design we can use an inner diameter of 7 cm and an outer diameter of about >7.5 cm, and length still of about 50 cm. The thrust comes from the fact >the trailing end of capacitor is open, which is clear with the flat plate >capacitor design, but not so clear with the coaxial design. Proof of that >the two are equivalent may require running a high resolution FEA model. >However, it appears that both are equivalent, and in any case that this >point is comparatively moot in that the principle issue involved, namely >waste audio frequency radiation, is a comparatively small issue compared to >the issue of whether the basic concept works. > > >RESONANT FREQUENCY > >The resonant frequency f0 is given by: > > f0 = 1/(2 Pi (L*C)^0.5) > > f0 = 1/(2* 3.1415 * 1/(1.73118x10^-10)^0.5) > > f0 = 12,096 Hz > > >REACTANCE AND IMPEDANCE > >Capacitive reactance Xc is given by: > > Xc = 1/(2 Pi f0 C) > > = 1/(2 * 3.1415 * 12,096 * 2.58x10^-8) ohms > > Xc = 510 ohms > >Inductive reactance Xl is given by: > > Xl = 2 Pi f0 L > > Xl = 2 * 3.1415 * 12,096 * 6.71x10^-3 ohms > > Xl = 510 ohms (check) > >The impedance Z = (R^2 + (Xl-Xc)^2)^0.5 is thus equal to resistance R. > > >POWER AND CURRENT > >If we assume a coil resistance of 1 ohm per 1000 m, or 0.001 ohms per >meter, we have a coil resistance of 11.3 m * 0.001 ohms per meter = 0.0113 >ohms. Assume the power supplied Ps = 1500 W. If It is the resonance tank >current then the heat Ph dissipated in the coil is given by: > > Ps = Ph = 1500 W = It^2*(0.0113 ohms) > >So: > > It = 364 A > >We have a very high Q coil, because: > > Q = Xc/R = 510/0.0113 > > Q = 1858 > >This gives Is the supply current: > > Is = It / Q = 636/1858 > > Is = 0.196 A > >And the supply voltage: > > Vs = Ps / Is = 1500/ 0.196 > > Vs = 7653 V > >The apparent power in the tank circuit is: > > Pt = It * Vt = 7653 * 364 W > > Pt = 2.79 MW > > >MAXIMUM RADIATION FORCE > >Note that the above numbers all ignore radiation. Additional power must be >supplied to account for any radiation. However, note that, at 1500 W power >supplied, that the *force* from any radiation can be ignored. There is >2.94x10^9 photonic watts per kg-f of thrust, so the 1500 watts could only >produce 5.1x10^-7 kg-f thrust. > > > >SELF-FORCE OF THE CLOSED END COAXIAL CAPACITOR > >Estimating the cap force for a capped coax: > > Fc = 1.61x10^-3 N > > Fc = 0.165 g-f > >Though small, a force of about 1/10 gram is sufficiently large to attempt >detection, and to be very useful. Also, this rough design is only to >provide sample calculations as a starting point for an actual experiment >design. Such a device, or one of approximately the same dimensions can be >fairly readily constructed from ordinary copper materials and a custom >power supply. > >At 2.94x10^9 photonic watts per kg-f of thrust, the 10^-4 kg-f would >require 294 kw of broadcast power. This number is way above the 1.5 kw >power supplied, but interestingly way below the Pt = 2.79 MW apparent power >of the resonant circuit. > >It is also notable that by using a larger inductance and capacitance that >the frequency could be dropped further and thus Q improved by reducing the >skin effect, and also by using a solid conductor for construction of the >toroidal inductor. The estimated 0.5 cm wire size corresponds to 4 gage >copper, which is 0.2533 ohms per 1000 feet, or 0.831 ohms per 1000 m. >Using 3 gage copper, a 10 percent increase in wire diameter, gives only >0.659 ohms per 1000 m, thus improving R by 51 percent and net force by 230 >percent, to 0.378 g-f. However, resistance of the capacitor has been >ignored, due to its small length. Achieving low resonant frequency >involves use of a much longer capacitor, thus capacitor resistance will >play a significant role. Increasing capacitance by reducing the capacitor >gap width is fruitless because net thrust is roughly proportional to the >gap width. The thrust is essentially provided by the fact that some >(angular) percent of a closed current loop is open. > > >CRYOGENIC ALUMINUM > >Aluminum has a conductivity of 0.377x10^6 ohm^-1 cm^-1, while copper is >0.596 x10^6 ohm^-1 cm^-1, thus copper provides 58 percent better >conductivity, but 250 percent better thrust per watt. Aluminum has >advantages over copper for propulsion due to a 70 percent savings in >weight. At 21 deg. kelvin high purity aluminum resistance drops to less >than 1/500 to 1/1000 times that of room temperature, thus providing an over >100,000 improvement in thrust/watt over copper. At this amplification the >0.1 g-f thrust becomes 10 kg-f. This amply repays the cost of 1500 W of >refrigeration, which in space can hopefully be provided at a power cost of >less than 10 kW. If so, a thrust/power ratio of about 1 kg-f/kW is >achieved. > > >SUPERCONDUCTING RESONATOR > >The lower resonant frequency achieved by use of much larger capacitors and >inductors should permit use of superconductors, with a much larger net >thrust feasible, and lower refrigeration cost. The major impediment to the >use of superconductors may be the radiation from SC surfaces exposed to >high voltage gradients. > > >COAXIAL DRIVE CONFIGURATIONS FOR SHIP > > >Figs 2 nd 3 show coaxial direves as they might be implimented in a large ship. > > ------------ > | | > | --------------------------------- > |===T-------------------------------- > | --------------------------------- > | | > ------------ > > Note - T represents power, oscillator, and toroidal coil unit > > Fig. 2 - Open ended coaxial drive with bulged power housing > > > ------------ > | | > | --------------------------------- > |===T-------------------------------- | > | --------------------------------- > | | > ------------ > > Note - T represents power, oscillator, and toroidal coil unit > > Fig. 3 - Closed ended coaxial drive with bulged power housing > > >The toroidal coil and osciallor (denoted "T") can be enclosed in a bulge at >the end of the coaxial coil. External power could be supplied by leads >inside a smaller "head" coaxial lead, denoted "===", or the power unit, >probably a nuclear reactor, could be enclosed within the bulged power >housing itself. > >It is notable that, provided the central conductor terminates well before >the end of the coaxial sheath, an end cap on the sheath should have no >effect other than to capture or reflect any radiation. As shown above, >this can only have negligible effect on thrust. > >Regards, > >Horace Heffner > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 5 00:39:04 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j357cqPX013911; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 00:38:52 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j357cmfN013859; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 00:38:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 00:38:48 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20050404210731.10069.qmail web51705.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050404210731.10069.qmail web51705.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 02:39:23 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: [OT] The Next Pope Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="============_-1099435722==_ma============" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58920 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --============_-1099435722==_ma============ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Terry Blanton posted; >http://www.hackwriters.com/Lustiger.htm > >This Buddhist Priest says a former Jew, and Archbishop of Paris, >will occupy the Throne of Peter. > Thanks for posting that, it was an interesting read I'll see your Jewish pope, and raise you a Nazi anti smoking ad, http://www.forces.org/articles/art-fcan/nazi2.htm --============_-1099435722==_ma============ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Re: [OT] The Next Pope
Terry Blanton posted;

http://www.hackwriters.com/Lustiger.htm
This Buddhist Priest says a former Jew, and Archbishop of Paris, will occupy the Throne of Peter.

Thanks for posting that, it was an interesting read

I'll see your Jewish pope, and raise you a Nazi anti smoking ad, http://www.forces.org/articles/art-fcan/nazi2.htm
--============_-1099435722==_ma============-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 5 05:41:14 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j35Cf5pA007896; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 05:41:05 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j35Cexkd007829; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 05:40:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 05:40:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001601c539dc$b2295a10$a9037841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: Vortex mystery Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 07:40:45 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0012_01C539B2.C79E4F10"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-99.5 required=4.0 tests=HTML_20_30,HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: <-6oyaB.A.S6B.adoUCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58921 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C539B2.C79E4F10 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0013_01C539B2.C7A5F030" ------=_NextPart_001_0013_01C539B2.C7A5F030 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankThe interesting series of posts regarding this subject is = fascinating. Anyone sitting in the middle of a tornado or hurricane can = testify that the forces generated are awesome and certainly didn't come = from the effect of gravity of falling water. A water vortex performs an = interesting " reverse" flow similar to a hurricane. The evidence of this = reverse flowing condition is from the micro=20 "twisters" spun off from the main vortex. The twisters are described as = microbursts by the weathermen and account for the strange and specific = damage during a hurricane. The twisters produce a short duration = whistling sound easily remembered by anyone that has spent hours located = in the path of a hurricane as it passes. We can produce many variations of a vortex in our glass test tanks, The = short duration vortexes spun off from the center vortex can be vertical, = horizontal or diagonal and visible in the water tank because of = entrained air.=20 As for the mathematics of a vortex, my old professor used to state.. one = can perform wonders with numbers while eating cucumbers. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0013_01C539B2.C7A5F030 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
The interesting series of posts regarding this subject is = fascinating.=20 Anyone sitting in the middle of a tornado or hurricane can testify that = the=20 forces generated are awesome and certainly didn't come from the effect = of=20 gravity of falling water. A water vortex performs an interesting " = reverse" flow=20 similar to a hurricane. The evidence of this reverse flowing condition = is from=20 the micro
"twisters" spun off from the main vortex. The twisters are = described as=20 microbursts by the weathermen and account for the strange and specific = damage=20 during a hurricane. The twisters produce a short duration whistling = sound=20 easily remembered by anyone that has spent hours located in the path of = a=20 hurricane as it passes.
We can produce many variations of a vortex in our glass test tanks, = The=20 short duration vortexes spun off from the center vortex can be vertical, = horizontal or diagonal and visible in the water tank because of = entrained air.=20
As for the mathematics of a vortex, my old professor used to = state.. one=20 can perform wonders with numbers while eating cucumbers.
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_0013_01C539B2.C7A5F030-- ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C539B2.C79E4F10 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <001101c539dc$b021ca40$a9037841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C539B2.C79E4F10-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 5 06:01:12 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j35D11pA017764; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 06:01:02 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j35D0wVb017724; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 06:00:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 06:00:58 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001f01c539df$7fd4f440$a9037841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Flywheels Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 08:00:10 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001B_01C539B5.7D47F9E0"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-99.5 required=4.0 tests=HTML_20_30,HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58922 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C539B5.7D47F9E0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_001C_01C539B5.7D47F9E0" ------=_NextPart_001_001C_01C539B5.7D47F9E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankOn the " extreme " hybrid thread I posted a comment describing a = spherical shaped flywheel. To take the thought to another level, the = flywheel could be in a 3 piece segmental air bearing configuration for = counterbalancing and to produce infinite variable speed and torgue = proportioning. The spherical shroud would cover two separate rotating = members each shaped like an ice cream cone which provides the north and = south pole geometry ( solid vortexes ,if you please). The molecular = structure (formed a molecule at a time) would need to have a memory = programmed into the cones ( characterized designer materials).Some of = the research in OU magnetic motors are headed in this direction but = neanderthal in concept. At the risk of being too far out in my posts, consider the bicycle as = the most efficent form of transportation. Equipped with an ultra high = speed flywheel, a bicycle can get you places while the hybrid people = still figuring out how to make a buck. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_001C_01C539B5.7D47F9E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
On the " extreme " hybrid thread I posted a comment describing a = spherical=20 shaped flywheel. To take the thought to another level, the flywheel = could be in=20 a 3 piece segmental air bearing configuration for counterbalancing and = to=20 produce infinite variable speed and torgue proportioning. The spherical = shroud=20 would cover two separate rotating members each shaped like an ice cream = cone=20 which provides the north and south pole geometry ( solid vortexes ,if = you=20 please). The molecular structure (formed a molecule at a time) would = need to=20 have a  memory programmed into the cones ( characterized designer=20 materials).Some of the research in OU magnetic motors are headed in this = direction but neanderthal in concept.
 
At the risk of being too far out in my posts, consider the bicycle = as the=20 most efficent form of transportation. Equipped with an ultra high speed=20 flywheel, a bicycle can get you places while the hybrid people still = figuring=20 out how to make a buck.
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_001C_01C539B5.7D47F9E0-- ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C539B5.7D47F9E0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <001a01c539df$661af4a0$a9037841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C539B5.7D47F9E0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 5 07:15:25 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j35EFEpA020294; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 07:15:15 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j35EEwf0020167; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 07:14:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 07:14:58 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050405100301.02bfe9c0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 10:09:11 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Why the U.S. Needs More Nuclear Power In-Reply-To: <007e01c5397a$f937bc60$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> References: <007e01c5397a$f937bc60$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_1150468==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58923 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_1150468==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Jones Beene wrote: >Very authoritative article in: >http://www.city-journal.org/html/15_1_nuclear_power.html > >"Why the U.S. Needs More Nuclear Power" >Peter W. Huber, Mark P. Mills Mark Mills is a consummate idiot. I doubt that anything he says is authoritative, although even a stopped (analog) clock is right twice a day. Or maybe Huber has the smarts. See: J. G. Koomey et al., "Rebuttal to Testimony on 'Kyoto and the Internet: The Energy Implications of the Digital Economy'," LBNL- 46509, Energy Analysis Department, Environmental Energy Technologies Division, Ernest Orlando Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory, August 2000, enduse.LBL.gov/Projects/InfoTech.html J. Rothwell, "New Urban Myth About Energy Pervades Highest Levels of Government," Infinite Energy Magazine Issue 37 J. Rothwell, "Mark Mills Cound Not Have Got It More Wrong," Infinite Energy Magazine Issue 42 I have not looked at this article closely, but I see the authors avoided the issue of uranium mining and dismissed the disposal problem. Uranium is so spread out in the environment that mining it is almost as destructive as mining coal. It is only "concentrated" after you refine the ore. This statement: "The power has to come from somewhere. Sun and wind will never come close to supplying it." . . . is complete nonsense. The sun and wind could supply a hundred times more energy than we consume. With space based solar energy, it could supply enough to vaporize the planet. Cost is the only issue. - Jed --=====================_1150468==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Jones Beene wrote:

Very authoritative article in:
http://www.city-journal.org/html/15_1_nuclear_power.html
 
"Why the U.S. Needs More Nuclear Power"
Peter W. Huber, Mark P. Mills

Mark Mills is a consummate idiot. I doubt that anything he says is authoritative, although even a stopped (analog) clock is right twice a day. Or maybe Huber has the smarts. See:

J. G. Koomey et al., “Rebuttal to Testimony on ‘Kyoto and the Internet: The Energy Implications of the Digital Economy’,” LBNL- 46509, Energy Analysis Department, Environmental Energy Technologies Division, Ernest Orlando Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory, August 2000, enduse.LBL.gov/Projects/InfoTech.html

J. Rothwell, "New Urban Myth About Energy Pervades Highest Levels of Government," Infinite Energy Magazine Issue 37

J. Rothwell, "Mark Mills Cound Not Have Got It More Wrong," Infinite Energy Magazine
Issue 42

I have not looked at this article closely, but I see the authors avoided the issue of uranium mining and dismissed the disposal problem. Uranium is so spread out in the environment that mining it is almost as destructive as mining coal. It is only "concentrated" after you refine the ore.

This statement:

"The power has to come from somewhere. Sun and wind will never come close to supplying it."

. . . is complete nonsense. The sun and wind could supply a hundred times more energy than we consume. With space based solar energy, it could supply enough to vaporize the planet. Cost is the only issue.

- Jed
 --=====================_1150468==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 5 07:22:18 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j35EM3pA024141; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 07:22:08 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j35EM1Pt024116; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 07:22:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 07:22:01 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050405101758.02c44c00 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 10:21:52 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [OT] The Next Pope In-Reply-To: References: <20050404210731.10069.qmail web51705.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58924 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: WAY off topic. A comment in today's Atlanta Journal: "Why do the Cardinals get to pick the new pope? They lost the World Series!" - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 5 08:06:10 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j35F5spA015198; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 08:05:54 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j35F5oS5015141; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 08:05:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 08:05:50 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002901c539f0$a0e629e0$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <007e01c5397a$f937bc60$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> <6.2.0.14.2.20050405100301.02bfe9c0@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Why the U.S. Needs More Nuclear Power Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 08:03:28 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58925 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jed Rothwell" > I have not looked at this article closely, but I see the authors avoided the issue of uranium mining and dismissed the disposal problem. Uranium is so spread out in the environment that mining it is almost as destructive as mining coal. It is only "concentrated" after you refine the ore. ...sure, but... The problem of "overlooking" very significant incidental 'problems' to prove a point goes ways ;-) The refining of the structural materials for windmills, or the silicon for solar cells, are both "dirty" processes which demand lots of coal (unless nuclear is substituted as the source of energy for refining. These energy sources also create huge secondary environmental problems because of the tonnage of discarded ore and coal emissions - all the more so because these end-processes, wind and solar, are of relatively low energy density. Has anyone ever calculated the environmental burden to the ecology caused by the tons of steel required for a windmill? My bet is that if this is done, nuclear will look very favorable in comparison because of its extraordinarily high energy-density, compared to these two, which are low energy-density. But again, the issue should not be framed as "either--or" when it comes to these three very desirable energy resources -- as we need all the extra solar, wind and nuclear we can put in place - but in the proper balance, as they are ALL highly preferable to burning fossil fuels. IOW let's do a total energy balance, realizing that when we strip mine coal to make lots of silicon, then the few ppm or natural radioactivity in the coal (or natural gas) get dumped directly into the atmosphere in small particulates where it can do the most harm. In terms of cancer risk, the burning of coal is infinitely more damaging to humans than having a moth-balled nuclear plant, which releases nothing into the atmosphere, or the occasional Three Mile Island, which posed a de minimis risk to health. My contention is that it is futile - and really counter-productive for the dedicated proponents of wind and/or solar energy to fight nuclear. These people should be allies, not adversaries. This unfortunate situation cause confusion which is playing directly into the hands of the petrocracy. Instead, environmentalist should unite - and realize that yes, nuclear is a good, if not the best, overall environmental option- and all ought to be joining together and combining resources against the real enemy: which is fossil fuels, and especially coal. IMHO the best thing to do with coal is to convert it into carbon structural fiber and use that fiber to replace steel, which cannot be made without coke - which is an extremely dirty and damaging process. The best thing to do with natural gas is to likewise convert it into plastics. Use wind, solar, and nuclear to provide the energy to do the conversion of these - and everybody is happy (except the steel mills which have mostly moved to China anyway). Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 5 08:36:39 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j35FaNpA005419; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 08:36:23 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j35FaIiS005356; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 08:36:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 08:36:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Why the U.S. Needs More Nuclear Power Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 11:37:54 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050405100301.02bfe9c0 pop.mindspring.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58926 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed writes: >Mark Mills is a consummate idiot. Be fair; he's not an idiot, just a shill for the nuclear industry. He says what they want to hear, and no doubt if you looked into the funding of his think-tank you'll find GE and all the usual suspects. I could find no list of donors on the institutes website; shouldn't they be proud of their supporters??? Consider just this one howler from the linked article. "The Chernobyl disaster seven years later drove the final nail into the nuclear coffin. It didn’t matter that the Three Mile Island containment vessel had done its job and prevented any significant release of radioactivity, or that Soviet reactors operated within a system that couldn’t build a safe toaster oven." Here the author implies that the Chernobyl accident was due to some major fault in the reactor design and implementation, carefully ignoring the fact that the real accident, as it occurred in the real world that you and I live in, was due to technicians shutting off all of the fail-safe systems and intentionally driving the reactor to failure. Could the reactor have been designed better? Sure. In fact, the current reactor could be redesigned so it is impossible to override the failsafe systems. You could weld the switches closed, although eventually someone would dig under the control panel and cut the switches open with a pair of side cutters. Here in the real world, humans do these things. In the idealized world of Mark Mills, they are a sort of Nietzcheian supermen who never screw up or do stupid things. How do I get a ticket to this amazing world he lives in???? Presumably some special Kool-Aid is involved... The author also claims that, opposed to the former SU, we _can_ build a safe toaster oven. I have a toaster oven in my kitchen, produced by the American company Black and Decker. It was recalled due to the design being inherently unsafe; the heating element is placed right below the door so when you reach in for your toast, you can burn the top of your hand. I'm careful now with the oven, and never got around to returning it, but just about everyone who uses it gets burned at some point. In the UberAmerica of Mark Mills, my toaster has never existed. All products here work perfectly, as do our power generation equipment. Perhaps Mark was out of town last summer when the grid failed and a few million New Yorkers had to walk back to Brooklyn in the dark. Maybe he was on a GE funded junket to Thailand??? If the author thinks that nuclear power is safe, he should open an insurance company immediately and start insuring new plants. No other insurance firm will do this, because unlike the mighty statiticians of the Manhattan Institute, they feel the risk far outweights the potential revenue. You would think someone who pays so much lip service to the free market would actually listen to what that free market has to say. But hey, if he did, his funding would dry up. K. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 5 08:38:57 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j35FcfpA007526; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 08:38:42 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j35Fb3Vw006098; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 08:37:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 08:37:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050405110938.02c0c400 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 11:13:47 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Why the U.S. Needs More Nuclear Power In-Reply-To: <002901c539f0$a0e629e0$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> References: <007e01c5397a$f937bc60$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> <6.2.0.14.2.20050405100301.02bfe9c0 pop.mindspring.com> <002901c539f0$a0e629e0$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_1743484==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: <7bAhLB.A.xeB.dCrUCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58927 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_1743484==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Jones Beene wrote: >The refining of the structural materials for windmills, or >the silicon for solar cells, are both "dirty" processes >which demand lots of coal (unless nuclear is substituted as >the source of energy for refining. That's not true. You can use electricity from windmills or silicon to refine the materials needed to make more windmills (or solar cells). The only thing you need coal for is to convert iron ore to steel, but you need this with a nuclear reactor too, and nuclear reactors use much more steel than windmills do, per KW of capacity. Furthermore, the energy payback time for a wind turbine is the lowest of any conventional energy source. It takes about 3 months for a wind tower to produce enough energy to manufacture another tower. It takes about 6 months or a year for a fossil fuel, and about 2 years for a nuclear plant. Wind towers will probably last much longer than conventional plants; 100 years versus 20 to 50 years. (The turbine engines and blades will last ~20 years, but the tower consumes most of the construction energy.) Solar cells are much worse. Some do not pay back at all. Others take about half the total useful lifetime of the cell to pay back. Solar cells should be thought of as batteries rather than a source of energy. However, it is the silicon that is energy intensive, and it is mostly scrap silicon from the computer chip business, so it would be thrown away otherwise. You might compare this to burning waste from computer chip factories (except that it produces no pollution, of course). If solar production expanded there would not be enough scrap silicon. > These energy sources also >create huge secondary environmental problems because of the >tonnage of discarded ore and coal emissions - all the more >so because these end-processes, wind and solar, are of >relatively low energy density. Wind has high energy density. A large modern wind turbine generates up to 10 MW, as much as a large helicopter engine, or twice as much as a modern railroad locomotive. Comparing the "footprint" of the wind tower, this is the highest energy density of any energy source. Comparing the 3-dimensional mass of tower or the number of tons of concrete gives a different answer, but this not relevant. Measured in useful land, the footprint of offshore wind turbines is zero. All of the electricity and all of the automobiles in Europe could easily be powered by offshore wind in the North Sea. Wind in the U.S. could easily generate more energy than all of the oil fields in the Middle East now do, even with today's technology, and much more with ultra-high towers. The mid-east oil fields are not at peak capacity, with no reserve, and they will soon begin a rapid decline, whereas U.S. wind resources will last as long as the sun shines. >Has anyone ever calculated the environmental burden to the >ecology caused by the tons of steel required for a windmill? Yes. This has been done extensively. Mark Mills and others have misrepresented these calculations, especially by claiming that wind turbines kill birds. Actually, thermal generators (coal and nuclear) kill millions of birds, whereas nobody has ever seen a modern, tall, slow wind turbine kill a single bird. Birds are evolved to avoid things like turbines and trees waving in the wind. They did not do well with 1970s vintage wind turbines with low, rapidly turning blades, but they have no difficulty avoiding the big ones. Aircraft of all sorts also kill millions of birds, and birds sometimes destroy aircraft. See: http://www.birdstrike.org/ - Jed --=====================_1743484==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Jones Beene wrote:

The refining of the structural materials for windmills, or
the silicon for solar cells, are both "dirty" processes
which demand lots of coal (unless nuclear is substituted as
the source of energy for refining.

That's not true. You can use electricity from windmills or silicon to refine the materials needed to make more windmills (or solar cells). The only thing you need coal for is to convert iron ore to steel, but you need this with a nuclear reactor too, and nuclear reactors use much more steel than windmills do, per KW of capacity.

Furthermore, the energy payback time for a wind turbine is the lowest of any conventional energy source. It takes about 3 months for a wind tower to produce enough energy to manufacture another tower. It takes about 6 months or a year for a fossil fuel, and about 2 years for a nuclear plant. Wind towers will probably last much longer than conventional plants; 100 years versus 20 to 50 years. (The turbine engines and blades will last ~20 years, but the tower consumes most of the construction energy.)

Solar cells are much worse. Some do not pay back at all. Others take about half the total useful lifetime of the cell to pay back. Solar cells should be thought of as batteries rather than a source of energy. However, it is the silicon that is energy intensive, and it is mostly scrap silicon from the computer chip business, so it would be thrown away otherwise. You might compare this to burning waste from computer chip factories (except that it produces no pollution, of course). If solar production expanded there would not be enough scrap silicon.


 These energy sources also
create huge secondary environmental problems because of the
tonnage of discarded ore and coal emissions  - all the more
so because these end-processes, wind and solar, are of
relatively low energy density.

Wind has high energy density. A large modern wind turbine generates up to 10 MW, as much as a large helicopter engine, or twice as much as a modern railroad locomotive. Comparing the "footprint" of the wind tower, this is the highest energy density of any energy source. Comparing the 3-dimensional mass of tower or the number of tons of concrete gives a different answer, but this not relevant. Measured in useful land, the footprint of offshore wind turbines is zero. All of the electricity and all of the automobiles in Europe could easily be powered by offshore wind in the North Sea. Wind in the U.S. could easily generate more energy than all of the oil fields in the Middle East now do, even with today's technology, and much more with ultra-high towers. The mid-east oil fields are not at peak capacity, with no reserve, and they will soon begin a rapid decline, whereas U.S. wind resources will last as long as the sun shines.


Has anyone ever calculated the environmental burden to the
ecology caused by the tons of steel required for a windmill?

Yes. This has been done extensively. Mark Mills and others have misrepresented these calculations, especially by claiming that wind turbines kill birds. Actually, thermal generators (coal and nuclear) kill millions of birds, whereas nobody has ever seen a modern, tall, slow wind turbine kill a single bird. Birds are evolved to avoid things like turbines and trees waving in the wind. They did not do well with 1970s vintage wind turbines with low, rapidly turning blades, but they have no difficulty avoiding the big ones.

Aircraft of all sorts also kill millions of birds, and birds sometimes destroy aircraft. See: http://www.birdstrike.org/

- Jed
--=====================_1743484==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 5 08:41:53 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j35FfjpA009912; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 08:41:45 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j35FfWtZ009718; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 08:41:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 08:41:32 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-UNTD-OriginStamp: GUNT6dKCgH8aoKLPKyRSHtfMVDfuqRUM1uhcZK2006p6eETZUXMRuw== X-Originating-IP: [4.88.35.142] Mime-Version: 1.0 From: "gesrebspar juno.com" Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 15:39:57 GMT To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [OT] The Next Pope X-Mailer: Juno Webmail Version 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Message-Id: <20050405.084001.23493.227267 webmail12.nyc.untd.com> X-ContentStamp: 2:1:3102890161 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58928 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Was not Peter and Paul both Jews first then Christ converts. Ges- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 5 08:50:39 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j35FoUpA016600; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 08:50:30 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j35Fmebg015336; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 08:48:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 08:48:40 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050405113858.02c16288 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 11:47:56 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: RE: Why the U.S. Needs More Nuclear Power In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050405100301.02bfe9c0 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <3xkhKC.A.bvD.WNrUCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58929 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Keith Nagel wrote: >Jed writes: > >Mark Mills is a consummate idiot. > >Be fair; he's not an idiot, just a shill for the nuclear industry. Is he? A few years ago he was shilling for the coal industry at the Greening Earth Society. That organization, paid for by the coal industry, is *in favor of* global warming. At least they are honest! They agree that coal is causing global warming, but they claim global warming will benefit mankind. (Except for places such as Florida, New York City or Bangladesh I suppose, but the Greening Earth people are not detail-oriented; they look at the big picture.) It is as if the tobacco companies were to advertise themselves as a potent solution to the Social Security funding problem -- which, in fact, they are. If enough people begin smoking again the Social Security fund will not run short in 2040 or anytime this century, because people will die off more quickly. Not to get off topic, you could accomplish the same thing by raising the retirement age 2 years now, and 5 years by 2040. That strikes me as the obvious solution. People are living longer and they are healthier, so why shouldn't they work? Most of the elderly people I know are electrochemists and farmers, and they all would prefer work until they day they drop dead anyway. They will work just as hard for free, or at a loss. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 5 08:52:55 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j35FqapA018285; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 08:52:37 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j35FqOcd018173; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 08:52:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 08:52:24 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 07:53:00 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Coaxial Capacitor Thrustor Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58930 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 7:22 PM 4/5/5, John Berry wrote: >Great analysis. >It should work IMO even if the forces are as Ampere states unless there >is no displacement current, [snip] There is always a displacement current, even between vacuum plates. The displacement current is eactly equal to the current to the capacitor, regardless of the presence of a dielectric or not. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 5 08:54:27 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j35FsDpA019669; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 08:54:14 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j35Fs5RP019508; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 08:54:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 08:54:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=jy/j4dw9z0wcfGezxr6goiyOuvpf4TMr09BtW8CI/Yi3un3Ka4g2gQ9UZCdijgltkJaQx8O7FwzJHGPKLGaQrnyOZEsPA1CUCZ4HJs4Jvs4DMV+K/q3W02bEcbcgslma9Gysg8jLE0LjQeNXEj8pWI4LMARXA1SB2jMS3SZFoxg= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 08:53:37 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [OT] The Next Pope In-Reply-To: <20050405.084001.23493.227267 webmail12.nyc.untd.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 References: <20050405.084001.23493.227267 webmail12.nyc.untd.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j35FrppA019320 Resent-Message-ID: <6FECKB.A.jwE.aSrUCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58931 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: and they were still jews after that. it wasnt until about 100 years later that christians were anything more than a subsect of judaism. personally, i still look at most of the christian religions as nothing more than a subsect of judaism. explains their use of the old testament. On Apr 5, 2005 8:39 AM, gesrebspar juno.com wrote: > > Was not Peter and Paul both Jews first then Christ converts. > Ges- > > -- "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 5 08:57:54 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j35FvepA022579; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 08:57:41 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j35FvacP022517; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 08:57:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 08:57:36 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000e01c539f8$28d668e0$0100007f xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: Why the US needs more nuclear power Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 10:56:46 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000A_01C539CE.296D1CB0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-99.5 required=4.0 tests=HTML_20_30,HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58932 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C539CE.296D1CB0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000B_01C539CE.296D1CB0" ------=_NextPart_001_000B_01C539CE.296D1CB0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankThe overriding question of the use of nuclear power is.. How many years can a Nuke plant operate before it becomes unsafe? The best guess is about 50 years maximum. Why? Because the heat fatigues the metal and not even a robot can be = used inside a reactor to repair piping once the metal begins to fatigue. = The only solution then becomes to encase the whole works inside a = concrete coffin for a minimum of 4000 years. That is what GE wont discuss. We have the South Texas Nuclear plant = nearby in Bay City Texas.. its beginning to age and may not be safe in = 10 more years. Not to worry, Cemex of Mexico is the rising star and will supply the = materials for the coffin. While on the subject of electric power generation.. consider the health = and fitness clubs running treadmills.. what a waste of energy to work = off a few pounds only to get in you 4 wheel drive super SUV with 10 = cylinders and drive to Chili's for a steak and potatos plus a few = margaritas for a well deserved present for lowering your future medicare = costs. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_000B_01C539CE.296D1CB0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
The overriding question of the use of nuclear power is..
 
How many years can a Nuke plant operate before it becomes = unsafe?
 
The best guess is about 50 years maximum.
 
Why? Because the heat fatigues the metal and not even a robot=20 can be used inside a reactor to repair piping once the = metal=20 begins to fatigue. The only solution then becomes to encase the whole = works=20 inside a concrete coffin for a minimum of 4000 years.
 
That is what GE wont discuss. We have the South Texas Nuclear plant = nearby=20 in Bay City Texas.. its beginning to age and may not be safe in 10 more=20 years.
Not to worry,  Cemex of Mexico is the rising star and will = supply the=20 materials for the coffin.
 
While on the subject of electric power generation.. consider the = health and=20 fitness clubs running treadmills.. what a waste of energy to work off a = few=20 pounds only to get in you 4 wheel drive super SUV with 10 cylinders and = drive to=20 Chili's for a steak and potatos plus a few margaritas for a well = deserved=20 present for lowering your future medicare costs.
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_000B_01C539CE.296D1CB0-- ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C539CE.296D1CB0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000901c539f8$123d0a30$0100007f xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C539CE.296D1CB0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 5 09:15:39 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j35GFPpA001598; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 09:15:26 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j35GFN6i001574; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 09:15:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 09:15:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050405115436.02c0c400 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 11:58:03 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: OFF TOPIC Demography and cigarettes In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050405113858.02c16288 pop.mindspring.com> References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050405100301.02bfe9c0 pop.mindspring.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050405113858.02c16288 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_4057843==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58933 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_4057843==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I wrote: >If enough people begin smoking again the Social Security fund will not run >short in 2040 or anytime this century, because people will die off more >quickly. There is a great deal of confusion about demography and health, so let me add that cigarettes are ideal for knocking off old people soon after they begin collecting Social Security, in their 70s. Most U.S. health problems affect younger people, especially infants. Violence and AIDS kill teenagers and people in their 20s. So they do nothing to reduce social security outlays. Diabetes and obesity are likely to kill or disable people in their 50s or 60s, adding to the Social Security burden. President Bush repeated some nonsense spread by the right-wing organizations when he said that black people do not live as long on average, so they do not collect their fair share of Social Security. The average from black people is low because many of them die as infants and teenagers. At birth, White: 77.1, Black 71.1. If black people survive until age 65, their remaining life is almost as long as white people's. White: 17.8 years, Black 16.1 years. See Table 12B: http://www.efmoody.com/estate/lifeexpectancy.html Overall, black people collect more Social Security than white people because they tend to retire earlier with disabilities. People are often confused by averages, but in this case there is no confusion. The assertion has been corrected again and again by experts from the Census Bureau and elsewhere, but the right-wing groups continue to repeat it. (Bush may be honestly confused, because he appears to be innumerate.) Sorry to get off-topic. - Jed --=====================_4057843==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" I wrote:

If enough people begin smoking again the Social Security fund will not run short in 2040 or anytime this century, because people will die off more quickly.

There is a great deal of confusion about demography and health, so let me add that cigarettes are ideal for  knocking off old people soon after they begin collecting Social Security, in their 70s. Most U.S. health problems affect younger people, especially infants. Violence and AIDS kill teenagers and people in their 20s. So they do nothing to reduce social security outlays. Diabetes and obesity are likely to kill or disable people in their 50s or 60s, adding to the Social Security burden.

President Bush repeated some nonsense spread by the right-wing organizations when he said that black people do not live as long on average, so they do not collect their fair share of Social Security. The average from black people is low because many of them die as infants and teenagers. At birth, White: 77.1, Black 71.1. If black people survive until age 65, their remaining life is almost as long as white people's. White: 17.8 years, Black 16.1 years. See Table 12B:

http://www.efmoody.com/estate/lifeexpectancy.html

Overall, black people collect more Social Security than white people because they tend to retire earlier with disabilities.

People are often confused by averages, but in this case there is no confusion. The assertion has been corrected again and again by experts from the Census Bureau and elsewhere, but the right-wing groups continue to repeat it. (Bush may be honestly confused, because he appears to be innumerate.)

Sorry to get off-topic.

- Jed
 --=====================_4057843==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 5 09:26:09 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j35GPvpA007862; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 09:25:58 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j35GPs9B007826; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 09:25:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 09:25:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050405121744.02c10210 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 12:25:29 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Demography and cigarettes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_4688000==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58934 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_4688000==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I wrote: "The average from black people is low because many of them die as infants and teenagers. At birth, White: 77.1, Black 71.1. If black people survive until age 65, their remaining life is almost as long as white people's. White: 17.8 years, Black 16.1 years." Oops. That is about the same, proportionally. Blacks live 90% as long. By 85 the gap closes to 97% As I said, see Table 12B: http://www.efmoody.com/estate/lifeexpectancy.html This table is for both sexes. The data is clearer for men only, who are more often the breadwinners. The male race gap is smaller at retirement age. Also, this reference claims that obesity kills at about the same age as smoking. Others claims it strikes earlier. - Jed --=====================_4688000==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" I wrote:

"The average from black people is low because many of them die as infants and teenagers. At birth, White: 77.1, Black 71.1. If black people survive until age 65, their remaining life is almost as long as white people's. White: 17.8 years, Black 16.1 years." Oops. That is about the same, proportionally. Blacks live 90% as long. By 85 the gap closes to 97%

As I said, see Table 12B:

http://www.efmoody.com/estate/lifeexpectancy.html

This table is for both sexes. The data is clearer for men only, who are more often the breadwinners. The male race gap is smaller at retirement age.

Also, this reference claims that obesity kills at about the same age as smoking. Others claims it strikes earlier.

- Jed
 --=====================_4688000==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 5 09:31:43 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j35GVSpA011371; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 09:31:28 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j35GVO5q011333; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 09:31:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 09:31:24 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <006301c539fc$928293a0$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Cc: References: Subject: Re: Why the U.S. Needs More Nuclear Power Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 09:28:59 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58935 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Keith, > Here the author implies that the Chernobyl accident was due to some major fault in the reactor design and implementation, carefully ignoring the fact that the real accident, as it occurred in the real world that you and I live in, was due to technicians shutting off all of the fail-safe systems and intentionally driving the reactor to failure. NO NO NO !!! Just to clear up one major point and continuation of a line of disinformation put out by the Soviets. The Chernobyl reactor design - and not the irresponsible acts of the employees - caused the accident. You are falling for the same bogus story put out by the Soviets to protect their other reactor assets - also flawed from day-one. And make no mistake, the "immediate cause" of the accident was worker stupidity but the accident was absolutely inevitable, given the flawed design (now changed). We were actually taught this in the 60s as part of a reactor design course. The US considered but rejected this design in the 50s (it is a cheaper design and needs far less enrichment the PWR). This Soviet design has a fatal flaw in that the coolant (light water) is NOT the moderator. The moderator - carbon - has far less thermal neutron cross-section than does the coolant, so in a loss-of-coolant accident, your reactivity goes way UP instead of down, and exponentially fast, it should be added. In all US designed reactors, loss-of-coolant shuts the reactor down because the coolant IS also the moderator: HUGE difference. We even told this the Soviets this back in the 60s in great detail - yet they persisted with a totally flawed design because it was cheap, plus they did not educate the workers well enough about the fatal consequences of loss-of-coolant. In a US reactor, this loss would shut the reactor down over time, as it did at TMI but in their flawed design, loss of coolant exponentially increases the reactivity of the core - and failure is guaranteed. This fault goes straight back to the Soviet bureauracracy and their lack of accountability for anything other than the lowest-cost solution- and not exactly to the workers themselves, however stupid their actions were (and they were *stupid* beyond all comprehension but yet that was not the ultimate problem). Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 5 09:39:02 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j35GcopA015993; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 09:38:51 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j35GcTfV015812; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 09:38:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 09:38:29 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050405123130.02c64020 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 12:37:55 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Why the U.S. Needs More Nuclear Power In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050405110938.02c0c400 pop.mindspring.com> References: <007e01c5397a$f937bc60$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> <6.2.0.14.2.20050405100301.02bfe9c0 pop.mindspring.com> <002901c539f0$a0e629e0$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> <6.2.0.14.2.20050405110938.02c0c400 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_5423234==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58936 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_5423234==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I wrote: >The mid-east oil fields are not at peak capacity, with no reserve, and >they will soon begin a rapid decline . . I meant they are NOW at peak capacity. Incidentally, I read that the recent estimates of oil in the Gulf of Mexico have been drastically downgraded. Someone drilling a test well must've hit suitcase rock. (K. Deffeyes says it is called "suitcase" because when you hit it you might as well pack up your clothes in a suitcase and head for home.) Deffeyes book "Hubber's Peak" is essential reading for anyone who wants to understand the oil industry and the growing shortage of oil. It is the perfect antidote to know-nothing economists who believe that demand magically creates supply. See the Pop Quiz on p. 138. - Jed --=====================_5423234==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" I wrote:

The mid-east oil fields are not at peak capacity, with no reserve, and they will soon begin a rapid decline . .

I meant they are NOW at peak capacity.

Incidentally, I read that the recent estimates of oil in the Gulf of Mexico have been drastically downgraded. Someone drilling a test well must've hit suitcase rock. (K. Deffeyes says it is called "suitcase" because when you hit it you might as well pack up your clothes in a suitcase and head for home.)

Deffeyes book "Hubber's Peak" is essential reading for anyone who wants to understand the oil industry and the growing shortage of oil. It is the perfect antidote to know-nothing economists who believe that demand magically creates supply. See the Pop Quiz on p. 138.

- Jed
--=====================_5423234==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 5 09:42:16 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j35Gg3pA018156; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 09:42:04 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j35Gfs8N018039; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 09:41:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 09:41:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <006a01c539fe$0124ea00$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <000e01c539f8$28d668e0$0100007f xptower> Subject: Re: Why the US needs more nuclear power Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 09:39:12 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58937 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Richard, "How many years can a Nuke plant operate before it becomes unsafe? The best guess is about 50 years maximum." ++ That is true for the PWR design because of metal fatigue, as you say, but not necessaruly true of an improved next-gen reactor design where the structural material is graphite fiber and the reactor is unpressurized, and steam is not used/. "The only solution then becomes to encase the whole works inside a concrete coffin for a minimum of 4000 years." ++ If you imporve the design into numerous (50 or so) small rail-car sized reactors, intead of one large one, then these can be encoffined on site, after they reach full maturity (75 years) and the same plant can continue operating for many hundreds of years. "We have the South Texas Nuclear plant nearby in Bay City Texas.. its beginning to age and may not be safe in 10 more years. Not to worry, Cemex of Mexico is the rising star and will supply the materials for the coffin." ++At least the South Texas Nuclear plant did not release the seveal hundred tons of uranium which a coal fired plant releases **directly into the air** over its lifetime!! "While on the subject of electric power generation.. consider the health and fitness clubs running treadmills.. what a waste of energy to work off a few pounds only to get in you 4 wheel drive super SUV with 10 cylinders and drive to Chili's for a steak and potatos plus a few margaritas for a well deserved present for lowering your future medicare costs." ++ Ha! excellent point ... which also highlights the difficulty and conflicting choices which we must make... and soon! Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 5 10:01:00 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j35H0YpA027951; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 10:00:35 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j35H0PxW027864; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 10:00:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 10:00:25 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <008101c53a00$a0370ae0$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <007e01c5397a$f937bc60$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> <6.2.0.14.2.20050405100301.02bfe9c0@pop.mindspring.com> <002901c539f0$a0e629e0$d0bcfea9@jonesb9pacbell> <6.2.0.14.2.20050405110938.02c0c400@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Why the U.S. Needs More Nuclear Power Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 09:58:00 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58938 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jed Rothwell" > the energy payback time for a wind turbine is the lowest of any conventional energy source. It takes about 3 months for a wind tower to produce enough energy to manufacture another tower. Excellent. Again... everyone *should* be for using wind energy in every site where it is feasible. Every consumer and every utility should be in favor of that. But even so, that will not be nearly enough, as a practical matter. You talk as if there is some kind of conspiracy against wind. I do not see any conspiracy here. All the power companies desire to have the lowest cost, most reliable source of energy - and none that I know of will exclude wind as a source, so long as it is competitive - why would they?... there is no conspiracy against wind energy. There just are not that many sites where there is reliable wind in proximity to the national grid, as many proponents want us to believe. The power companies are not against wind, but there are against investing money where there is no decent return on investment. The article in FSB about the South Dakota Indian tribe is a perfect case in point. They have a great site. They have the motivation. There are no political obstacles. But they have no money, and when they go to a power-generator, or to a bank, the problem is always the same - "sure we would invest here, except the cost to get the power from Dakota to the grid is then times higher than the cost of the wind-farm... or whatever. I think wind will take care of itself, to the degree that there are good sites available. There is no conspiracy against wind that I can see and the problem of re-educating the utility companies was taken care of a decade ago... so what are you really saying? That there is still some secret conspiracy out there? Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 5 10:16:34 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j35HGOpA005574; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 10:16:25 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j35HGGCF005504; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 10:16:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 10:16:16 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Why the U.S. Needs More Nuclear Power Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 13:17:47 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <006301c539fc$928293a0$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58939 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones, Yes, it is the case that reactors should be designed with more concern for safety. I understand that. I also agree that the soviet reactor design was poor, just as you say. Yet the fact remains that it took human hands to turn off the existing fail safe equipment, and destructively test the reactor. NO ENGINEERING DESIGN CAN WITHSTAND THE HUMAN HAND. All machines will fail in the end, because humans are smarter than machines and can think of utterly ingenious ways to break them. The immediate cause of the accident is all I care about, frankly. Because that's what caused the accident. You seem to think we can defeat Godels Law and build a machine that is impossible to break. The rest of the reactors adjacent to the destroyed reactor have worked fine to this point, because no one has ( yet ) shut off all the safety overrides and tried to destructively test the reactor again. But it's a matter of time... Here's a more recent example. The last nuclear accident in Japan occurred when workers processed uranium fuel rods in a steel mop bucket!!! They put in enough material to reach critical mass, which caused a small explosion. Now perhaps Japanese mop buckets can be redesigned with a special radiation sensors that alerts the user when he's put too much uranium in the mop bucket for processing. Or better still, a lid which prevents the insertion of uranium fuel rods. All these things would help, as you say about the SU designed reactor. But what caused the accident? And how will all our careful designs help solve the problem? Don't you think the workers would have cut the wires to that annoying alarm they keep hearing when they load the bucket with uranium? Or unscrew the lid? What the hell are they doing processing uranium in a mop bucket!!! At what point do we admit PBKAC, as we say in the software industry, ( Problem Between Keyboard And Chair ). I'm all for nuclear power, it's a great source of energy. The problem is these pesky primates we have to rely on to run the plants. How do we redesign them for safety? Jones writes: >This fault goes straight back to the Soviet bureauracracy >and their lack of accountability for anything other than the >lowest-cost solution. That sounds exactly like what we have here. K. -----Original Message----- From: Jones Beene [mailto:jonesb9 pacbell.net] Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2005 12:29 PM To: vortex Cc: knagel gis.net Subject: Re: Why the U.S. Needs More Nuclear Power Keith, > Here the author implies that the Chernobyl accident was due to some major fault in the reactor design and implementation, carefully ignoring the fact that the real accident, as it occurred in the real world that you and I live in, was due to technicians shutting off all of the fail-safe systems and intentionally driving the reactor to failure. NO NO NO !!! Just to clear up one major point and continuation of a line of disinformation put out by the Soviets. The Chernobyl reactor design - and not the irresponsible acts of the employees - caused the accident. You are falling for the same bogus story put out by the Soviets to protect their other reactor assets - also flawed from day-one. And make no mistake, the "immediate cause" of the accident was worker stupidity but the accident was absolutely inevitable, given the flawed design (now changed). We were actually taught this in the 60s as part of a reactor design course. The US considered but rejected this design in the 50s (it is a cheaper design and needs far less enrichment the PWR). This Soviet design has a fatal flaw in that the coolant (light water) is NOT the moderator. The moderator - carbon - has far less thermal neutron cross-section than does the coolant, so in a loss-of-coolant accident, your reactivity goes way UP instead of down, and exponentially fast, it should be added. In all US designed reactors, loss-of-coolant shuts the reactor down because the coolant IS also the moderator: HUGE difference. We even told this the Soviets this back in the 60s in great detail - yet they persisted with a totally flawed design because it was cheap, plus they did not educate the workers well enough about the fatal consequences of loss-of-coolant. In a US reactor, this loss would shut the reactor down over time, as it did at TMI but in their flawed design, loss of coolant exponentially increases the reactivity of the core - and failure is guaranteed. This fault goes straight back to the Soviet bureauracracy and their lack of accountability for anything other than the lowest-cost solution- and not exactly to the workers themselves, however stupid their actions were (and they were *stupid* beyond all comprehension but yet that was not the ultimate problem). Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 5 10:27:26 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j35HREpA011682; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 10:27:14 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j35HR3ik011581; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 10:27:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 10:27:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 09:28:19 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Demography and cigarettes Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58941 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:58 AM 4/5/5, Jed Rothwell wrote: [snip] >Bush may be honestly confused, because he appears to be >innumerate.) [snip] What an interesting and useful word you have coined there: innumerate, adj, 1. free of numbers, 2. numerically challenged, 3. unable to quantify or compute, 4. unfettered by quantitative reality. This absolutely must be used in published works. It deserves to be in the OED. 8^) Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 5 10:28:05 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j35HRrpA012101; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 10:27:54 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j35HQsAt011477; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 10:26:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 10:26:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 09:28:14 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Why the U.S. Needs More Nuclear Power Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58940 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:13 AM 4/5/5, Jed Rothwell wrote: [snip] >You can use electricity from windmills or silicon to >refine the materials needed to make more windmills (or solar cells). Say, wasn't there an innovative solar cell manufacturer in Australia that was going to convert their factory to all solar powered? As I recall they had invented an unusually efficient solar cell. I wonder how that is progressing. Maybe Robin van Spaandonk, who posted the original material on this, can update us on that? It seems to me undeniably true that if the world is converted to all renewable energy (wind, solar, wave, water, hydrothermal, bio), that the above conclusion would be obvious. Based on material I posted earlier, it appears this is not only feasible but the most economical approach long term, especially if accomplished in a global fashion. The unit cost of renewables will ultimately beat the unit cost of nuclear by a large factor. However, the needs of the United States are so immediate and defense related that I have to agree with Jones that every possible energy source must be developed here as soon as possible, including nuclear. An equally vigorous conservation program is needed as well. We need people of vision in Washington, people who have an accurate concept of the future as well as the world's perception of the United States. We need people unafraid to change their positions. We need people who are not completely beholden, who possess both the ability and drive to perceive the difference between actions required of them necessary to the lives of the people and the continued existence of the country vs obligatory political pork that merely redistributes wealth among the states. Pork might even be a good thing. However, the consequences of political pork are nearly inconsequential compared to the inability of leadership to distinguish the truly critical actions and to take them. From my perspective, the vision is apparently muddy, and as the vision clears the political will is weakend and action delayed, possibly as a result of present campaign finance laws. It is only when the situation is glaringly clear, nearly without controversy, and the need pressing in the extreme, that significant action with regard to energy is likely to occur. Here's another perspective. Suppose a drive by some major group to build lots of nuclear plants actually occurred. Maybe the rationale for building the plants combined with the inevitable backlash would be sufficient to get something done with regard to renewable energy and conservation. The majority of the American public at this point is completely asleep at the wheels - asleep at the steering wheels of gas guzzlers that is. Maybe that's just exactly what is needed - a big drive for nukes! What an appropos thread name, except maybe it should be all caps! WE ALL NEED MORE NUKES NOW! A NUKE IN EVERY CITY, A NUKE IN EVERY BACK YARD, A NUKE IN EVERY GARAGE. GET YOUR NUKES NOW! GET YOUR CHEAP NUKES, NOW MANUFACTURED IN CHINA AND SOLD BY WALLMART! Excuse me. I'm getting dizzy on this soapbox. I'd better step down. 8^) Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 5 10:43:17 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j35Hh5pA021627; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 10:43:06 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j35Hh06r021555; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 10:43:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 10:43:00 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4252CE36.3060907 pobox.com> Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 13:43:18 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.5) Gecko/20050105 Debian/1.7.5-1 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Demography and cigarettes References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58942 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: >At 11:58 AM 4/5/5, Jed Rothwell wrote: >[snip] > > >>Bush may be honestly confused, because he appears to be >>innumerate.) >> >> >[snip] > >What an interesting and useful word you have coined there: > > Jed didn't coin it. Thus says the American Heritage Dictionary: innumerate SYLLABICATION: in-nu-mer-ate ADJECTIVE: Unfamiliar with mathematical concepts and methods. NOUN: A person who is unfamiliar with mathematical concepts and methods. OTHER FORMS: in - numer - a - cy (noun) >innumerate, adj, > > 1. free of numbers, > 2. numerically challenged, > 3. unable to quantify or compute, > 4. unfettered by quantitative reality. > >This absolutely must be used in published works. It deserves to be in the >OED. 8^) > >Regards, > >Horace Heffner > > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 5 11:05:37 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j35I5NpA032076; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 11:05:23 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j35I5L5X032029; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 11:05:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 11:05:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4252D346.4060009 ihug.co.nz> Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2005 06:04:54 +1200 From: John Berry User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Coaxial Capacitor Thrustor References: <42523CC5.4030508@ihug.co.nz> In-Reply-To: <42523CC5.4030508 ihug.co.nz> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <5yGfP.A.I0H.fNtUCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58943 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Replying to myself ;) John Berry wrote: > > I do have a concern with your diagram though, if you go from wire or > coax to plates the current branch out to fill the plates. > The problem is that the currents branching out should create a force > in the opposite direction this becomes more clear if you substitute > the capacitor plates with wires. > But what can be done is to use the same metal you use with the plates > with the same width for the whole construction (except the the toroid > and wires leading up to it, doesn't matter that they are thinner as > the currents must both converge and diverge going in and out. This would only be a problem with non ampere type forces at 90 degrees to the current. Actually at this moment, I'm not quite sure why two hoop coils in attraction at an angle to each other shouldn't create a unidirectional force if the forces are at right angles, or indeed why two permanent magnets in attraction also at an angle wouldn't create the same effect. Though I can't believe this is the case, either I'm missing something or Ampere was correct, which I think he was. (or both) O ^ O \ / \ N S / S \ / N \ / O O Hoop coil diagram. > > > > Horace Heffner wrote: > >> The following design of a resonant Coaxial Capacitor Thrustor >> indicates a >> thrust of about 1 kilogram force per kilowatt is feasible. >> >> >> DIAGRAM OF RESONANT OPEN ENDED THRUSTER >> >> Toroid >> o========o::: >> | | >> ---------- -----o-xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Capacitor plates >> | B1 P1 >> | >> | B2 P2 >> ----------------o-xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx >> >> >> Note - >> >> B1 and B2 are the bends with partially unopposed self-forces >> >> P1 and P2 are power supply points >> >> It is assumed the toroid coil can be taken off vertically >> without inducing a net lateral force. >> >> >> Fig. 1 - DIAGRAM OF RESONANT OPEN ENDED THRUSTER >> >> For coaxial versions see Figs. 2 and 3 below. >> >> >> TOROIDAL CONDUCTOR >> >> Assume the conductor is made of tubing about 0.5 cm diameter. Small >> radius >> of the torus is 4 cm. Inner radius of torus is 15 cm. Major radius >> Mr is >> thus 19 cm. and outer radius is 23 cm. Total of N = 45 turns Coil >> area A >> is about 50 cm^2. Coil conductor length is about 11.3 m. Inductance is >> approximated by: >> >> L = u N^2 A (1/Mr) (1.26x10^-6 H) >> >> L = (1) (45^2) (50) (1/(19)) (1.26x10^-6 H) >> >> L = 6.71 mH >> >> >> CAPACITOR >> >> Plate size is 23 cm x 50 cm, giving an area of 1150 cm^2. Plate >> separation >> is 0.5 cm, of which 0.12 cm is 20 kV insulation with dielectric >> constant Ke >> = 8 and the rest is dielectric constant Ke = 1. Capacitance is given >> by: >> >> C = Ke (A/d) (8.85x1010^-12 F) >> >> For the insulating layer: >> >> Ci = 8 (1150/0.12) (8.85x10^-12 F) >> >> Ci = 6.79x10^-7 F >> >> For the air layer: >> >> Ca = 1 (1150/0.38) (8.85x10^-12 F) >> >> Ca = 2.68x10^-8 F >> >> Total capacitance: >> >> 1/Ct = 1/Ci + 1/Ca >> >> 1/Ct = 1.473x10^6 + 3.73x10^7 (1/F) >> >> Ct = 2.58x10^-8 F >> >> >> ALTERNATE DESIGN FOR CAPACITOR - COAXIAL >> >> A design with similar values can be obtained by making the capacitor >> coaxial In that case the plate fed by P1 would be the outer sheath >> and P2 >> the inner conductor. This has the advantage of minimizing external >> waste >> AF radiation. Except for concerns about resistance, the coax can be >> made >> as long as necessary to accommodate the desired capacitance. >> >> To approximate an equivalent coaxial capacitor to the above flat plate >> design we can use an inner diameter of 7 cm and an outer diameter of >> about >> 7.5 cm, and length still of about 50 cm. The thrust comes from the fact >> the trailing end of capacitor is open, which is clear with the flat >> plate >> capacitor design, but not so clear with the coaxial design. Proof of >> that >> the two are equivalent may require running a high resolution FEA model. >> However, it appears that both are equivalent, and in any case that this >> point is comparatively moot in that the principle issue involved, namely >> waste audio frequency radiation, is a comparatively small issue >> compared to >> the issue of whether the basic concept works. >> >> >> RESONANT FREQUENCY >> >> The resonant frequency f0 is given by: >> >> f0 = 1/(2 Pi (L*C)^0.5) >> >> f0 = 1/(2* 3.1415 * 1/(1.73118x10^-10)^0.5) >> >> f0 = 12,096 Hz >> >> >> REACTANCE AND IMPEDANCE >> >> Capacitive reactance Xc is given by: >> >> Xc = 1/(2 Pi f0 C) >> >> = 1/(2 * 3.1415 * 12,096 * 2.58x10^-8) ohms >> >> Xc = 510 ohms >> >> Inductive reactance Xl is given by: >> >> Xl = 2 Pi f0 L >> >> Xl = 2 * 3.1415 * 12,096 * 6.71x10^-3 ohms >> >> Xl = 510 ohms (check) >> >> The impedance Z = (R^2 + (Xl-Xc)^2)^0.5 is thus equal to resistance R. >> >> >> POWER AND CURRENT >> >> If we assume a coil resistance of 1 ohm per 1000 m, or 0.001 ohms per >> meter, we have a coil resistance of 11.3 m * 0.001 ohms per meter = >> 0.0113 >> ohms. Assume the power supplied Ps = 1500 W. If It is the resonance >> tank >> current then the heat Ph dissipated in the coil is given by: >> >> Ps = Ph = 1500 W = It^2*(0.0113 ohms) >> >> So: >> >> It = 364 A >> >> We have a very high Q coil, because: >> >> Q = Xc/R = 510/0.0113 >> >> Q = 1858 >> >> This gives Is the supply current: >> >> Is = It / Q = 636/1858 >> >> Is = 0.196 A >> >> And the supply voltage: >> >> Vs = Ps / Is = 1500/ 0.196 >> >> Vs = 7653 V >> >> The apparent power in the tank circuit is: >> >> Pt = It * Vt = 7653 * 364 W >> >> Pt = 2.79 MW >> >> >> MAXIMUM RADIATION FORCE >> >> Note that the above numbers all ignore radiation. Additional power >> must be >> supplied to account for any radiation. However, note that, at 1500 W >> power >> supplied, that the *force* from any radiation can be ignored. There is >> 2.94x10^9 photonic watts per kg-f of thrust, so the 1500 watts could >> only >> produce 5.1x10^-7 kg-f thrust. >> >> >> >> SELF-FORCE OF THE CLOSED END COAXIAL CAPACITOR >> >> Estimating the cap force for a capped coax: >> >> Fc = 1.61x10^-3 N >> >> Fc = 0.165 g-f >> >> Though small, a force of about 1/10 gram is sufficiently large to >> attempt >> detection, and to be very useful. Also, this rough design is only to >> provide sample calculations as a starting point for an actual experiment >> design. Such a device, or one of approximately the same dimensions >> can be >> fairly readily constructed from ordinary copper materials and a custom >> power supply. >> >> At 2.94x10^9 photonic watts per kg-f of thrust, the 10^-4 kg-f would >> require 294 kw of broadcast power. This number is way above the 1.5 kw >> power supplied, but interestingly way below the Pt = 2.79 MW apparent >> power >> of the resonant circuit. >> >> It is also notable that by using a larger inductance and capacitance >> that >> the frequency could be dropped further and thus Q improved by >> reducing the >> skin effect, and also by using a solid conductor for construction of the >> toroidal inductor. The estimated 0.5 cm wire size corresponds to 4 gage >> copper, which is 0.2533 ohms per 1000 feet, or 0.831 ohms per 1000 m. >> Using 3 gage copper, a 10 percent increase in wire diameter, gives only >> 0.659 ohms per 1000 m, thus improving R by 51 percent and net force >> by 230 >> percent, to 0.378 g-f. However, resistance of the capacitor has been >> ignored, due to its small length. Achieving low resonant frequency >> involves use of a much longer capacitor, thus capacitor resistance will >> play a significant role. Increasing capacitance by reducing the >> capacitor >> gap width is fruitless because net thrust is roughly proportional to the >> gap width. The thrust is essentially provided by the fact that some >> (angular) percent of a closed current loop is open. >> >> >> CRYOGENIC ALUMINUM >> >> Aluminum has a conductivity of 0.377x10^6 ohm^-1 cm^-1, while copper is >> 0.596 x10^6 ohm^-1 cm^-1, thus copper provides 58 percent better >> conductivity, but 250 percent better thrust per watt. Aluminum has >> advantages over copper for propulsion due to a 70 percent savings in >> weight. At 21 deg. kelvin high purity aluminum resistance drops to less >> than 1/500 to 1/1000 times that of room temperature, thus providing >> an over >> 100,000 improvement in thrust/watt over copper. At this >> amplification the >> 0.1 g-f thrust becomes 10 kg-f. This amply repays the cost of 1500 W of >> refrigeration, which in space can hopefully be provided at a power >> cost of >> less than 10 kW. If so, a thrust/power ratio of about 1 kg-f/kW is >> achieved. >> >> >> SUPERCONDUCTING RESONATOR >> >> The lower resonant frequency achieved by use of much larger >> capacitors and >> inductors should permit use of superconductors, with a much larger net >> thrust feasible, and lower refrigeration cost. The major impediment >> to the >> use of superconductors may be the radiation from SC surfaces exposed to >> high voltage gradients. >> >> >> COAXIAL DRIVE CONFIGURATIONS FOR SHIP >> >> >> Figs 2 nd 3 show coaxial direves as they might be implimented in a >> large ship. >> >> ------------ >> | | >> | --------------------------------- >> |===T-------------------------------- >> | --------------------------------- >> | | >> ------------ >> >> Note - T represents power, oscillator, and toroidal coil unit >> >> Fig. 2 - Open ended coaxial drive with bulged power housing >> >> >> ------------ >> | | >> | --------------------------------- >> |===T-------------------------------- | >> | --------------------------------- >> | | >> ------------ >> >> Note - T represents power, oscillator, and toroidal coil unit >> >> Fig. 3 - Closed ended coaxial drive with bulged power housing >> >> >> The toroidal coil and osciallor (denoted "T") can be enclosed in a >> bulge at >> the end of the coaxial coil. External power could be supplied by leads >> inside a smaller "head" coaxial lead, denoted "===", or the power unit, >> probably a nuclear reactor, could be enclosed within the bulged power >> housing itself. >> >> It is notable that, provided the central conductor terminates well >> before >> the end of the coaxial sheath, an end cap on the sheath should have no >> effect other than to capture or reflect any radiation. As shown above, >> this can only have negligible effect on thrust. >> >> Regards, >> >> Horace Heffner >> >> >> > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 5 11:10:41 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j35IASpA002707; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 11:10:29 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j35IAN66002640; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 11:10:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 11:10:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050405130938.02c63b00 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 14:02:29 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Why the U.S. Needs More Nuclear Power In-Reply-To: <008101c53a00$a0370ae0$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> References: <007e01c5397a$f937bc60$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> <6.2.0.14.2.20050405100301.02bfe9c0 pop.mindspring.com> <002901c539f0$a0e629e0$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> <6.2.0.14.2.20050405110938.02c0c400 pop.mindspring.com> <008101c53a00$a0370ae0$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_10949671==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58944 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_10949671==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Jones Beene wrote: >Excellent. Again... everyone *should* be for using wind >energy in every site where it is feasible. Every consumer >and every utility should be in favor of that. But even so, >that will not be nearly enough, as a practical matter. There is not enough wind for electricity because of the problems you enumerated about the grid, and distances. We could only generate about a third of our electricity from wind, or almost enough to retire all coal-fired plants. However, there is more than enough wind to replace fossil fuel with hydrogen or synthetic hydrocarbons. This would put OPEC out of business and reverse the U.S. balance of payments, because the U.S. happens to have the world's largest supply of easily accessible wind power. (We could also replace coal-fired plants with natural gas, but this would drive up the cost of gas, whereas if Texas, Iowa and other states with plenty of wind cut over to wind instead, there will be plenty of gas left for places like Georgia that have no wind. Eventually, electricity and automobiles everywhere could be powered by wind-generated fuel.) >You talk as if there is some kind of conspiracy against wind. I do not see >any conspiracy here. Then you have not looked! It is not a "conspiracy" in the same sense that opposition to CF is not a conspiracy. It is overt, not covert, and the people like Mark Mills who spearhead the opposition to wind brag about their accomplishments. The opposition comes mainly from the fossil fuel industry and the politicians they pay off. They claim it is not practical; it is too expensive; it kills birds, and so on. They prevented research in the U.S., so wind was developed in Denmark. They see to that the tax structure works against wind, and also against other renewables and conservation. The tax system and depletion allowances reward waste, pollution, and using up resources. If the U.S. had implemented serious conservation and wind energy development in 1980, we would be exporting energy by now. >All the power companies desire to have the lowest cost, most reliable >source of energy - and none that I know of will exclude wind as a source, >so long as it is competitive - why would they?... They sure would! Your statement is like saying automobile companies desire to make safe, affordable and efficient cars. That's nonsense. The only thing power companies and auto companies want to make is a profit. Auto companies love SUVs because they are profitable, even though SUVs are grossly inefficient, difficult to drive, and they kill more passengers, and up to 20 times more pedestrians and people in other cars. SUVs may cause a backlash that puts GM out of business. These problems do not make the slightest difference to the auto execs. They would be happy to make money by brutally murdering 20,000 people per year, the way coal-fired power plant operators do, or 440,000 people, the way the way the tobacco industry does. Throughout history, capitalists have sacrificed millions of lives and their own futures time after time with stupid, self-destructive behavior. This is human nature. Capitalism is the most efficient way to allocate money and resources, but it does not promote morality or human decency any more than communism does. It is an amoral economic system. Engineering is the most efficient way to build machinery, and it is equally amoral. It works just as well whether you build lifesaving machinery or instruments to torture people with. >The article in FSB about the South Dakota Indian tribe is a perfect case >in point. They have a great site. They have the motivation. There are no >political obstacles. But they have no money . . . They have plenty of money month to month. They have enough to pay for their electricity now, and wind electricity would be cheaper. What they lack is capital. They are like poor people in Mexico who cannot afford to buy $15 compact fluorescent lights, so they buy $1 incandescent bulbs instead, which end up costing them $50 over the life of the bulb. In both cases, the power companies are conspiring to keep poor people poor, and to keep them living hand to mouth, rather than giving them the means to reduce their overall expenses. In the Third World, oil companies make billions of dollars selling poor people kerosene to light their houses and cook food. They sell it in small lots for ~$10 per gallon, making it their most profitable business. It produces between 10 and 50 times less light than electricity would, and of course it causes countless fires and ruins people's lungs. People who make one or two dollars per day must spend several dollars per month on fuel. If the poor people could afford to put aside that money for six months, or if someone would offer them a micro-loan at normal interest, they could buy a modern wind up LED lamps which are much brighter than kerosene lamps and which consume no fuel. They cannot do that because they are on a hand-to-mouth treadmill, because only usurers will lend them money at hundreds of percent per year, and because there has been no research and no government or industry support for lifesaving advanced technology that would benefit mainly Third World people. Wind-up LED lights and improved mosquito nets are only available to rich campers in first-world countries. >I think wind will take care of itself, to the degree that there are good >sites available. Given the complexity of the U.S. tax structure, and the tight control that Washington and the fossil fuel industry have over energy policy, I do not think there is a slightest chance that wind or any other source will take care of itself. If they have their way, the fossil fuel industry, the administration, and DoE will drive us over a cliff until gasoline reaches $10 per gallon, and GM and Ford go bankrupt because they make SUVs instead of sane automobiles. For similar examples of self-destructive behavior, see B. W. Touchman, "The March of Folly." It seems odd that the auto industry does the bidding of the fossil fuel industry. They do because inefficient cars are more profitable in today's market. This is because the fossil fuel industry pays the Congress to distort the market, subsidize waste, and pay for wars fought on behalf of the oil industry. - Jed --=====================_10949671==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jones Beene wrote:

Excellent. Again... everyone *should* be for using wind
energy in every site where it is feasible. Every consumer
and every utility should be in favor of that.  But even so,
that will not be nearly enough, as a practical matter.

There is not enough wind for electricity because of the problems you enumerated about the grid, and distances. We could only generate about a third of our electricity from wind, or almost enough to retire all coal-fired plants. However, there is more than enough wind to replace fossil fuel with hydrogen or synthetic hydrocarbons. This would put OPEC out of business and reverse the U.S. balance of payments, because the U.S. happens to have the world's largest supply of easily accessible wind power.

(We could also replace coal-fired plants with natural gas, but this would drive up the cost of gas, whereas if Texas, Iowa and other states with plenty of wind cut over to wind instead, there will be plenty of gas left  for places like Georgia that have no wind. Eventually, electricity and automobiles everywhere could be powered by wind-generated fuel.)


You talk as if there is some kind of conspiracy against wind. I do not see any conspiracy here.

Then you have not looked! It is not a "conspiracy" in the same sense that opposition to CF is not a conspiracy. It is overt, not covert, and the people like Mark Mills who spearhead the opposition to wind brag about their accomplishments. The opposition comes mainly from the fossil fuel industry and the politicians they pay off. They claim it is not practical; it is too expensive; it kills birds, and so on. They prevented research in the U.S., so wind was developed in Denmark. They see to that the tax structure works against wind, and also against other renewables and conservation. The tax system and depletion allowances reward waste, pollution, and using up resources. If the U.S. had implemented serious conservation and wind energy development in 1980, we would be exporting energy by now.


All the power companies desir= e to have the lowest cost, most reliable source of energy - and none that I know of will exclude wind as a source, so long as it is competitive - why would they?...

They sure would! Your statement is like saying automobile companies desire to make safe, affordable and efficient cars. That's nonsense. The only thing power companies and auto companies want to make is a profit. Auto companies love SUVs because they are profitable, even though SUVs are grossly inefficient, difficult to drive, and they kill more passengers, and up to 20 times more pedestrians and people in other cars. SUVs may cause a backlash that puts GM out of business. These problems do not make the slightest difference to the auto execs. They would be happy to make money by brutally murdering 20,000 people per year, the way coal-fired power plant operators do, or 440,000 people, the way the way the tobacco industry does.

Throughout history, capitalists have sacrificed millions of lives and their own futures time after time with stupid, self-destructive behavior. This is human nature. Capitalism is the most efficient way to allocate money and resources, but it does not promote morality or human decency any more than communism does. It is an amoral economic system. Engineering is the most efficient way to build machinery, and it is equally amoral. It works just as well whether you build lifesaving machinery or instruments to torture people with.


The article in FSB about the South Dakota Indian tribe is a perfect case in point. They have a great site. They have the motivation. There are no political obstacles. But they have no money . . .

They have plenty of money month to month. They have enough to pay for their electricity now, and wind electricity would be cheaper. What they lack is capital. They are like poor people in Mexico who cannot afford to buy $15 compact fluorescent lights, so they buy $1 incandescent bulbs instead, which end up costing them $50 over the life of the bulb. In both cases, the power companies are conspiring to keep poor people poor, and to keep them living hand to mouth, rather than giving them the means to reduce their overall expenses.

In the Third World, oil companies make billions of dollars selling poor people kerosene to light their houses and cook food. They sell it in small lots for ~$10 per gallon, making it their most profitable business. It produces between 10 and 50 times less light than electricity would, and of course it causes countless fires and ruins people's lungs. People who make one or two dollars per day must spend several dollars per month on fuel. If the poor people could afford to put aside that money for six months, or if someone would offer them a micro-loan at normal interest, they could buy a modern wind up LED lamps which are much brighter than kerosene lamps and which consume no fuel. They cannot do that because they are on a hand-to-mouth treadmill, because only usurers will lend them money at hundreds of percent per year, and because there has been no research and no government or industry support for lifesaving advanced technology that would benefit mainly Third World people. Wind-up LED lights and improved mosquito nets are only available to rich campers in first-world countries.


I think wind will take care o= f itself, to the degree that there are good sites available.

Given the complexity of the U.S. tax structure, and the tight control that Washington and the fossil fuel industry have over energy policy, I do not think there is a slightest chance that wind or any other source will take care of itself. If they have their way, the fossil fuel industry, the administration, and DoE will drive us over a cliff until gasoline reaches $10 per gallon, and GM and Ford go bankrupt because they make SUVs instead of sane automobiles. For similar examples of self-destructive behavior, see B. W. Touchman, "The March of Folly."

It seems odd that the auto industry does the bidding of the fossil fuel industry. They do because inefficient cars are more profitable in today's market. This is because the fossil fuel industry pays the Congress to distort the market, subsidize waste, and pay for wars fought on behalf of the oil industry.

- Jed
 --=====================_10949671==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 5 11:11:13 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j35IB0pA002958; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 11:11:00 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j35IAmWX002875; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 11:10:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 11:10:48 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 10:12:14 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Demography and cigarettes Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58945 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 1:43 PM 4/5/5, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: >Jed didn't coin it. > >Thus says the American Heritage Dictionary: > >innumerate >SYLLABICATION: in-nu-mer-ate >ADJECTIVE: Unfamiliar with mathematical concepts and methods. >NOUN: A person who is unfamiliar with mathematical concepts and methods. >OTHER FORMS: in - numer - a - cy (noun) Also interesting. Before posting I checked the electronic version of the American Heritage Dictionary, copyright 1992, for "innumerate" and it did not have it. I wonder with what group of words it might be included in the thesaurus. 8^) Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 5 11:34:26 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j35IYBpA017240; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 11:34:12 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j35IY4BU017155; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 11:34:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 11:34:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 10:35:27 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Coaxial Capacitor Thrustor Resent-Message-ID: <9B6TaC.A.xLE.aotUCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58946 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 6:04 AM 4/6/5, John Berry wrote: >Actually at this moment, I'm not quite sure why two hoop coils in >attraction at an angle to each other shouldn't create a unidirectional >force if the forces are at right angles, or indeed why two permanent >magnets in attraction also at an angle wouldn't create the same effect. >Though I can't believe this is the case, either I'm missing something or >Ampere was correct, which I think he was. (or both) > > >O ^ O > \ / > \ N S / > S \ / N > \ / > O O > >Hoop coil diagram. You seem to be consumed by the utter confusion that results from reading the arcane or incorrect word usage and concepts that are contained in confused web postings of amatures like myself. 8^) There is an enormous body of evidence that says the forces between permanent magnets, or even electromagnets like hoop coils, are conservative. It appears you are confusing torque with net linear force. Also, you might be interested to know that I have done FEA models of configurations very similar to the above, as well as actual torsion beam tests of them, and there is no net linear force. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 5 11:46:24 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j35IkCpA023121; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 11:46:12 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j35IjcYH022882; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 11:45:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 11:45:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050405142046.02c62e30 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 14:44:22 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Demography and cigarettes In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_13067125==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58947 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_13067125==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Horace Heffner wrote: >Also interesting. Before posting I checked the electronic version of the >American Heritage Dictionary, copyright 1992, for "innumerate" and it did >not have it. I have heard the term all my life, because my mother was a statistician. That is also why I spent hours immersed in actuarial tables, population distribution maps, and back issues of the Journal of the American Statistical Association when I was eight years old. I also got to go see the computers at the Census Bureau back when computers were computers, by golly, and the CPU alone took up the whole room. My mother's favorite publication title was: "American Population Broken down by Age and Sex." Her favorite book on statistics (and mine) was D. Huff, "How to Lie with Statistics," first published in 1954, and now in its 39th printing. Over 500,000 copies have been sold. I wish it were 50 million. It should be required reading in high school. This might help reduce the shenanigans by politicians and business executives, such as president Bush's phony games with averages. See chapters 2 and 10. - Jed --=====================_13067125==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Horace Heffner wrote:

Also interesting.  Before posting I checked the electronic version of the
American Heritage Dictionary, copyright 1992, for "innumerate" and it did
not have it.

I have heard the term all my life, because my mother was a statistician. That is also why I spent hours immersed in actuarial tables, population distribution maps, and back issues of the Journal of the American Statistical Association when I was eight years old. I also got to go see the computers at the Census Bureau back when computers were computers, by golly, and the CPU alone took up the whole room.

My mother's favorite publication title was: "American Population Broken down by Age and Sex." Her favorite book on statistics (and mine) was D. Huff, "How to Lie with Statistics," first published in 1954, and now in its 39th printing. Over 500,000 copies have been sold. I wish it were 50 million. It should be required reading in high school. This might help reduce the shenanigans by politicians and business executives, such as president Bush's phony games with averages. See chapters 2 and 10.

- Jed
 --=====================_13067125==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 5 12:07:00 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j35J6mpA032524; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 12:06:48 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j35J6ikc032489; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 12:06:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 12:06:44 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050405200750.006813d0 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 20:07:50 +0000 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: OT: "If I were Pope." Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j35J6cpA032437 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58948 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I thought this was a rather intelligent article which some Vorts might appreciate, i.e. those that believe that objective truth is not merely confined to science. ;-) Why progressive Westerners never understood John Paul II By Mark Steyn (Filed: 05/04/2005) If I were Pope - and no, don't worry, I'm not planning a mid-life career change - but, if I were, I'd be a little irked at the secular media's inability to discuss religion except through the prism of their moral relativism. That's why last weekend's grand old man - James Callaghan - got a more sympathetic send-off than this weekend's. The Guardian's headline writer billed Sunny Jim as a man "whose consensus politics were washed away in the late 1970s". Is it possible to have any meaningful "consensus" between, on the one hand, closed-shop council manual workers demanding a 40 per cent pay rise and, on the other, rational human beings? What would the middle ground between the real world and Planet Zongo look like? A 30 per cent pay rise, rising to 40 per cent over 18 months or the next strike, whichever comes sooner? By contrast, the Guardian thought Karol Wojtyla was "a doctrinaire, authoritarian pontiff". That "doctrinaire" at least suggests the inflexible authoritarian derived his inflexibility from some ancient operating manual - he was dogmatic about his dogma - unlike the New York Times and the Washington Post, which came close to implying that John Paul II had taken against abortion and gay marriage off the top of his head, principally to irk "liberal Catholics". The assumption is always that there's some middle ground that a less "doctrinaire" pope might have staked out: he might have supported abortion in the first trimester, say, or reciprocal partner benefits for gays in committed relationships. The root of the Pope's thinking - that there are eternal truths no one can change even if one wanted to - is completely incomprehensible to the progressivist mindset. There are no absolute truths, everything's in play, and by "consensus" all we're really arguing is the rate of concession to the inevitable: abortion's here to stay, gay marriage will be here any day now, in a year or two it'll be something else - it's all gonna happen anyway, man, so why be the last squaresville daddy-o on the block? We live in a present-tense culture where novelty is its own virtue: the Guardian, for example, has already been touting the Nigerian Francis Arinze as "candidate for first black pope". This would be news to Pope St Victor, an African and pontiff from 189 to 199. Among his legacies: the celebration of Easter on a Sunday. That's not what the Guardian had in mind, of course: it meant "the first black pope since the death of Elvis" - or however far back our societal memory now goes. But, if you hold an office first held by St Peter, you can say "been there, done that" about pretty much everything the Guardian throws your way. John Paul's papacy was founded on what he called - in the title of his encyclical - Veritatis Splendor, and when you seek to find consensus between truth and lies you tarnish that splendour. Der Spiegel this week published a selection from the creepy suck-up letters Gerhard Schröder wrote to the East German totalitarian leaders when he was a West German pol on the make in the 1980s. As he wrote to Honecker's deputy, Egon Krenz: "I will certainly need the endurance you have wished me in this busy election year. But you will certainly also need great strength and good health for your People's Chamber election." The only difference being that, on one side of the border, the election result was not in doubt. When a free man enjoying the blessings of a free society promotes an equivalence between real democracy and a sham, he's colluding in the great lie being perpetrated by the prison state. Too many Western politicians of a generation ago - Schmidt, Trudeau, Mitterrand - failed to see what John Paul saw so clearly. It requires tremendous will to cling to the splendour of truth when the default mode of the era is to blur and evade. The question now is whether His Holiness was as right about us as he was about the Communists. The secularists, for example, can't forgive him for his opposition to condoms in the context of Aids in Africa. The Dark Continent gets darker every year: millions are dying, male life expectancy is collapsing and such civil infrastructure as there is seems likely to follow. But the most effective weapon against the disease has not been the Aids lobby's 20-year promotion of condom culture in Africa, but Uganda's campaign to change behaviour and to emphasise abstinence and fidelity - i.e., the Pope's position. You don't have to be a Catholic or a "homophobe" to think that the spread of Aids is telling us something basic - that nature is not sympathetic to sexual promiscuity. If it weren't Aids, it would be something else, as it has been for most of human history. What should be the Christian response? To accept that we're merely the captives of our appetites, like a dog in heat? Or to ask us to rise to the rank God gave us - "a little lower than the angels" but above "the beasts of the field"? In Evangelium Vitae (The Gospel of Life), the Pope wrote: "Sexuality too is depersonalised and exploited: it increasingly becomes the occasion and instrument for self-assertion and the selfish satisfaction of personal desires and instincts. Thus the original import of human sexuality is distorted and falsified, and the two meanings, unitive and procreative, inherent in the very nature of the conjugal act, are artificially separated." Had the Pope signed on to condom distribution in Africa, he would have done nothing to reduce the spread of Aids, but he would have done a lot to advance the further artificial separation of sex, in Africa and beyond. Indeed, if you look at the New York Times's list of complaints against the Pope - "Among liberal Catholics, he was criticised for his strong opposition to abortion, homosexuality and contraception" - they all boil down to what he called sex as self-assertion. Thoughtful atheists ought to be able to recognise that, whatever one's tastes in these areas, the Pope was on to something - that abortion et al, in separating the "two meanings" of sex and leaving us free to indulge in one while ignoring the other, have severed us almost entirely and possibly irreparably from traditional impulses, such as societal survival. John Paul II championed the "splendour of truth" not because he was rigid and inflexible, but because he understood the alternative was a dead end in every sense. If his beloved Europe survives in any form, it will one day acknowledge that. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 5 12:16:02 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j35JFmpA004336; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 12:15:53 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j35JFjDg004296; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 12:15:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 12:15:45 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050405145007.02c62910 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 15:15:29 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Wind-up flashlight Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58949 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: See: http://store.yahoo.com/dotcoms/ilwiflet.html The price has fallen from $40 to $20. These are not very bright. A slightly larger version would be ideal for Third World house. I believe this is the ultimate development of the household flashlight. It will never be fundamentally improved in the future. Flashlights 200 years from now may be a little brighter, smaller and lighter, and perhaps longer-lasting, but they will still be about this big, and they will still be hand-powered. When you need a flashlight to walk the dog or put out the garbage, you do not want one that is blindingly bright, like an automobile headlight. Hand-powered LEDs provide a convenient, useful level of light, so I doubt anyone will replace hand power with a battery or a cold fusion generator. Cold fusion would be good for a large, powerful flashlight, such as one used by rescue workers searching for a child lost in the woods. Ultimate technology is rare. Most machines can be improved, and will evolve. Examples of ultimate technology in daily life include spoons, buttons on shirts, and the 4-function solar powered calculator. Of course we make more complex calculators for some purposes. But for simple arithmetic and the quick estimates we used to do with slide rules, I doubt the 4-function calculator can be improved upon. Buttons on a shirt can be replaced with a zipper or Velcro, but there is no real advantage. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 5 12:35:31 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j35JZGpA012192; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 12:35:16 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j35JZDlP012168; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 12:35:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 12:35:13 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 11:36:42 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Why the U.S. Needs More Nuclear Power Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58950 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 2:02 PM 4/5/5, Jed Rothwell wrote: >There is not enough wind for electricity because of the problems you >enumerated about the grid, and distances. Cost of long range power transmission is an important issue, and one which vortex should examine more carefully. At this time I have only time for babbling, so maybe someone will carry the ball here. There are a number of good web sites on this. I do know that DC transmission lines over 1200 miles in range are presently profitable compared to AC transmission, and I think long range DC power transmission lines exist on the US west coast already. The recent drops in power silicon circuit cost has made DC power transmission economically feasible. It is EM radiation emission free, and does not require ugly and dangerous transmission lines and towers. It is also apparently even more relible, based on experience obtained with an underwater transmission system in Europe. If room temperature superconduction (RTSC) is developed then power transmission will take on a whole new nature. One or more vorts is working in the RTSC area already (still there Mark?) Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 5 12:35:35 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j35JZOpA012250; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 12:35:24 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j35JZLk1012230; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 12:35:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 12:35:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 11:36:45 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Demography and cigarettes Resent-Message-ID: <64sdaC.A.8-C.3huUCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58951 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 2:44 PM 4/5/5, Jed Rothwell wrote: >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > >Horace Heffner wrote: > >>Also interesting. Before posting I checked the electronic version of the >>American Heritage Dictionary, copyright 1992, for "innumerate" and it did >>not have it. > >I have heard the term all my life, because my mother was a statistician. Strange, it is not in the 1971 version of the Oxford English Dictionary (OED). >That is also why I spent hours immersed in actuarial tables, population >distribution maps, and back issues of the Journal of the American >Statistical Association when I was eight years old. I also got to go see >the computers at the Census Bureau back when computers were computers, by >golly, and the CPU alone took up the whole room. Yep, by golly. For a few years in the 70's I travelled cost to cost installing systems software in big computer systems. Some systems consumed more than the area of a football field in raised floor. In those olden days I recall having to work out the total system power and air conditioning Btu requirements before ordering any device, including a disk controller, which was a device about twice the size of a refrigerator. Now disk controllers are a mere chip. Some day disk drives will go the way of punched cards. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 5 12:36:45 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j35JaTpA013016; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 12:36:29 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j35JaOtt012958; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 12:36:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 12:36:24 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4252E94A.3080904 ix.netcom.com> Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 13:38:50 -0600 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: OT: "If I were Pope." References: <2.2.32.20050405200750.006813d0 pop.freeserve.net> In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.20050405200750.006813d0 pop.freeserve.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58952 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Like in science, the conclusion one reaches depends on the assumptions made at the beginning. The beliefs of each religion and the rules supposed to be God-given suffer from this same limitation. In this article the author makes the argument that the rules of the Catholic Church, i.e. no abortion, no condoms, and no gay marriage, would not advance mankind because their change would separate the sex act from its primary intention, thereby causing injury to mankind. The fact not considered is that all three prohibitions would lead to a smaller population. The assumption not considered is that this fact might be a good thing. Providing a growing Catholic population has always been the self-serving policy of the church. For centuries, this policy gave an advantage to the human race. However, this advantage is rapidly decaying away as population grows at a compounding rate. How many more people must suck the resources out of the earth before the Church changes its policy? I suggest that even science can not mediate the damage if population grows at a sufficiently rapid rate. Ed Grimer wrote: > I thought this was a rather intelligent article which some > Vorts might appreciate, i.e. those that believe that objective > truth is not merely confined to science. ;-) > > > Why progressive Westerners never understood John Paul II > By Mark Steyn > (Filed: 05/04/2005) > > If I were Pope - and no, don't worry, I'm not planning a mid-life career change - but, if I were, I'd be a little irked at the secular media's inability to discuss religion except through the prism of their moral relativism. That's why last weekend's grand old man - James Callaghan - got a more sympathetic send-off than this weekend's. The Guardian's headline writer billed Sunny Jim as a man "whose consensus politics were washed away in the late 1970s". Is it possible to have any meaningful "consensus" between, on the one hand, closed-shop council manual workers demanding a 40 per cent pay rise and, on the other, rational human beings? What would the middle ground between the real world and Planet Zongo look like? A 30 per cent pay rise, rising to 40 per cent over 18 months or the next strike, whichever comes sooner? > > > > By contrast, the Guardian thought Karol Wojtyla was "a doctrinaire, authoritarian pontiff". That "doctrinaire" at least suggests the inflexible authoritarian derived his inflexibility from some ancient operating manual - he was dogmatic about his dogma - unlike the New York Times and the Washington Post, which came close to implying that John Paul II had taken against abortion and gay marriage off the top of his head, principally to irk "liberal Catholics". The assumption is always that there's some middle ground that a less "doctrinaire" pope might have staked out: he might have supported abortion in the first trimester, say, or reciprocal partner benefits for gays in committed relationships. > > The root of the Pope's thinking - that there are eternal truths no one can change even if one wanted to - is completely incomprehensible to the progressivist mindset. There are no absolute truths, everything's in play, and by "consensus" all we're really arguing is the rate of concession to the inevitable: abortion's here to stay, gay marriage will be here any day now, in a year or two it'll be something else - it's all gonna happen anyway, man, so why be the last squaresville daddy-o on the block? > > We live in a present-tense culture where novelty is its own virtue: the Guardian, for example, has already been touting the Nigerian Francis Arinze as "candidate for first black pope". This would be news to Pope St Victor, an African and pontiff from 189 to 199. Among his legacies: the celebration of Easter on a Sunday. > > That's not what the Guardian had in mind, of course: it meant "the first black pope since the death of Elvis" - or however far back our societal memory now goes. But, if you hold an office first held by St Peter, you can say "been there, done that" about pretty much everything the Guardian throws your way. John Paul's papacy was founded on what he called - in the title of his encyclical - Veritatis Splendor, and when you seek to find consensus between truth and lies you tarnish that splendour. > > Der Spiegel this week published a selection from the creepy suck-up letters Gerhard Schröder wrote to the East German totalitarian leaders when he was a West German pol on the make in the 1980s. As he wrote to Honecker's deputy, Egon Krenz: "I will certainly need the endurance you have wished me in this busy election year. But you will certainly also need great strength and good health for your People's Chamber election." The only difference being that, on one side of the border, the election result was not in doubt. > > When a free man enjoying the blessings of a free society promotes an equivalence between real democracy and a sham, he's colluding in the great lie being perpetrated by the prison state. Too many Western politicians of a generation ago - Schmidt, Trudeau, Mitterrand - failed to see what John Paul saw so clearly. It requires tremendous will to cling to the splendour of truth when the default mode of the era is to blur and evade. > > The question now is whether His Holiness was as right about us as he was about the Communists. The secularists, for example, can't forgive him for his opposition to condoms in the context of Aids in Africa. The Dark Continent gets darker every year: millions are dying, male life expectancy is collapsing and such civil infrastructure as there is seems likely to follow. > > But the most effective weapon against the disease has not been the Aids lobby's 20-year promotion of condom culture in Africa, but Uganda's campaign to change behaviour and to emphasise abstinence and fidelity - i.e., the Pope's position. You don't have to be a Catholic or a "homophobe" to think that the spread of Aids is telling us something basic - that nature is not sympathetic to sexual promiscuity. If it weren't Aids, it would be something else, as it has been for most of human history. > > What should be the Christian response? To accept that we're merely the captives of our appetites, like a dog in heat? Or to ask us to rise to the rank God gave us - "a little lower than the angels" but above "the beasts of the field"? In Evangelium Vitae (The Gospel of Life), the Pope wrote: "Sexuality too is depersonalised and exploited: it increasingly becomes the occasion and instrument for self-assertion and the selfish satisfaction of personal desires and instincts. Thus the original import of human sexuality is distorted and falsified, and the two meanings, unitive and procreative, inherent in the very nature of the conjugal act, are artificially separated." > > Had the Pope signed on to condom distribution in Africa, he would have done nothing to reduce the spread of Aids, but he would have done a lot to advance the further artificial separation of sex, in Africa and beyond. Indeed, if you look at the New York Times's list of complaints against the Pope - "Among liberal Catholics, he was criticised for his strong opposition to abortion, homosexuality and contraception" - they all boil down to what he called sex as self-assertion. > > Thoughtful atheists ought to be able to recognise that, whatever one's tastes in these areas, the Pope was on to something - that abortion et al, in separating the "two meanings" of sex and leaving us free to indulge in one while ignoring the other, have severed us almost entirely and possibly irreparably from traditional impulses, such as societal survival. John Paul II championed the "splendour of truth" not because he was rigid and inflexible, but because he understood the alternative was a dead end in every sense. > > If his beloved Europe survives in any form, it will one day acknowledge that. > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 5 13:14:21 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j35KECpA032319; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 13:14:13 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j35KE5o2032267; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 13:14:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 13:14:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) In-Reply-To: <200504051811.j35IBYrk003366 ultra5.eskimo.com> References: <200504051811.j35IBYrk003366 ultra5.eskimo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Message-Id: <996bc83fa7d918f51544aefbcf1622e4 byu.edu> From: John Robertson Subject: Re: vortex-digest Digest V2005 #161 Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 14:14:00 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j35KE2pA032242 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58953 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I have been a lurker for years now and have enjoyed the discussions very much. I am an innumerate linguist, unprepared to comment on much of the technical details of these discussions. I would, however, like to emerge from my years of lurking to comment (of topic) on Jed's statement: snip "Throughout history, capitalists have sacrificed millions of lives and their own futures time after time with stupid, self-destructive behavior. This is human nature. Capitalism is the most efficient way to allocate money and resources, but it does not promote morality or human decency any more than communism does. It is an amoral economic system. Engineering is the most efficient way to build machinery, and it is equally amoral. It works just as well whether you build lifesaving machinery or instruments to torture people with." and snip The question of morality is an interesting one. English has three terms: moral, immoral, amoral. Taken by themselves the words have a positive, negative and neutral connotation. The referents to which the words might attach, however, are another issue. What was immoral for Stalin's Communism, might have been fine and dandy for Roosevelt's democracy, and vice versa. The real question is if there is a basis for determining morality independent of Stalin's communist culture or Roosevelt's capitalist culture. There seems to be an overwhelming if not universal sense, for example, that incest is neither moral, nor amoral -- Egyptian and Incan practice of marriage (kings and queens) not withstanding. In general, we humans have a hard time believing that wanton murder for selfish and personal gain is acceptable behavior. These may well be examples of behavior that the majority of the human race might describe using "immoral" (whatever the term for "unacceptable behavior"). However, since there is so much gray area in determining behavior that is moral, immoral, or amoral, I have to believe that it is impossible to persuade anyone with fixed beliefs to change. Therefore, I doubt that this will persuade Jed: (a) It is harder to dismiss communism as an economic system from communism an ideo-political system than it is to separate capitalism as an economic system from capitalism as a political system. It is fair to say, I believe, that capitalism, past and present, encompasses more diversity of political systems than communism ever did. (b) If we are to believe the The Black Book of Communism: Crimes, Terror, Repression (by Stéphane Courtois, Nicolas Werth, Jean-Louis Panné, Andrzej Paczkowski, Karel Bartosek ...), the behavior engendered by Communism in the 20th Century was directly and indirectly responsible for the deaths of from 80 to 100 million people. I find such wanton, selfish killing immoral. I may be wrong, but I do not believe that as many people who suffered in Jed's thrall of capitalism in the same century were killed for the same wanton, selfish reasons. One might argue that the flourishing of technology helped more people under capitalism than it did under Communism. It is probably fair to say that what we believe is what we are willing to act on. What we choose to believe really does matter to our future and more importantly, to the future of others as well. The data seem to argue that communism -- a belief system that prompted wanton, selfish destruction of human beings -- is hardly amoral. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 5 13:32:41 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j35KWXpA007454; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 13:32:34 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j35KWSdM007407; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 13:32:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 13:32:28 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <3rra4i$t9rjpj mxip17a.cluster1.charter.net> X-Ironport-AV: i="3.91,152,1110171600"; d="scan'208"; a="983420723:sNHT7640487042" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.12 (webedge20-101-197-20030912) From: To: CC: Subject: Re: Re: OFF TOPIC Demography and cigarettes Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 20:32:16 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58954 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: Horace Heffner ... > Yep, by golly. For a few years in the 70's I travelled > cost to cost installing systems software in big computer > systems. Some systems consumed more than the area of a > football field in raised floor. In those olden > days I recall having to work out the total system power > and air conditioning Btu requirements before ordering any > device, including a disk controller, which was a device > about twice the size of a refrigerator. Now > disk controllers are a mere chip. Some day disk drives > will go the way of punched cards. > > Regards, > > Horace Heffner > Speaking of legendary computer (and punched card) stories the one I'll never forget occurred when an older programmer showed me a trick of the trade. Back around 1979 I was compiling another object code deck (IBM cards) from an assembler language program on an IBM 360-20 with 32K of memory, 30 megabyte hard drive. I miss-keyed one of the address locations, creating a "syntax error". I was bummed because I knew it would take another 30 minutes for the computer to punch out another deck of object code, just to correct the one miss-keyed address location. FEAR NOT said the older programmer. Since we knew what the actual hexadecimal address was (by looking at the cross reference listing) he took me over to the keypunch machine and punched out a new object card containing the correct hexadecimal address. He then took me over to the object deck and unceremoniously replaced the erroneous card. Time spent fixing my "syntax error": 5 minutes. He could have performed the trick even more quickly but he was teaching me. The older programmer has since made his transition to the next dimension, but I'll never forget the delight he gave me in this simple lesson: Human speed can on occasion be faster than what a computer can do. Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 5 13:47:25 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j35KlApA015629; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 13:47:10 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j35Kl4So015592; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 13:47:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 13:47:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <3rr3lu$on4d2i mxip08a.cluster1.charter.net> X-Ironport-AV: i="3.91,152,1110171600"; d="scan'208"; a="829568082:sNHT13541954" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.12 (webedge20-101-197-20030912) From: To: CC: Subject: Re: Wind-up flashlight Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 20:46:45 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58955 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: Jed Rothwell > See: > > http://store.yahoo.com/dotcoms/ilwiflet.html > > The price has fallen from $40 to $20. These are not > very bright. A slightly larger version would be ideal > for Third World house. > > I believe this is the ultimate development of the > household flashlight. It will never be fundamentally > improved in the future. Flashlights 200 years > from now may be a little brighter, smaller and lighter, > and perhaps longer-lasting, but they will still be > about this big, and they will still be hand-powered. > When you need a flashlight to walk the dog or put out > the garbage, you do not want one that is blindingly > bright, like an automobile headlight. Hand-powered > LEDs provide a convenient, useful level of light, > so I doubt anyone will replace hand power with a > battery or a cold fusion generator. Cold fusion would > be good for a large, powerful flashlight, such as one > used by rescue workers searching for a child lost in > the woods. This model looks much better than the product Edmund's Scientific is selling at their web site. I purchased one of these out of curiosity and it malfunctioned within a month. Too much plastic. What can I say. It was $6.95. see: http://scientificsonline.com/product.asp_Q_pn_E_3034031 > Ultimate technology is rare. Most machines can be > improved, and will evolve. Examples of ultimate > technology in daily life include spoons, buttons on > shirts, and the 4-function solar powered calculator. > Of course we make more complex calculators > for some purposes. But for simple arithmetic and the > quick estimates we used to do with slide rules, I doubt > the 4-function calculator can be improved upon. Buttons > on a shirt can be replaced with a zipper or Velcro, but > there is no real advantage. > > - Jed But Velcro garmets being ripped off the body in the heat of the moment make a much more satisfying noise! Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 5 14:30:31 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j35LUEpC004864; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 14:30:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j35L00xG020750; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 14:00:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 14:00:00 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=C4lFMhGRKPkBnbmveP3p/RWaUrmuw19sCTY2wl7lbBGEUbg8TfcAj3YFnhYVha1kQQyVYHuSUaoasEZ+ll/jCR+pIxmxrKQG5ckpOEVpcwh+KtR/raqjpY30/fRJiIBeg1TMXY+DQfrca1WKzy15Z+dxBzULmGm4Y9fLt1Z4mI0= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 13:59:53 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: vortex-digest Digest V2005 #161 In-Reply-To: <996bc83fa7d918f51544aefbcf1622e4 byu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 References: <200504051811.j35IBYrk003366 ultra5.eskimo.com> <996bc83fa7d918f51544aefbcf1622e4 byu.edu> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j35KxrpA020691 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58956 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: thank you john. its a tough concept for so many, but there are no absolute morals. all morals are subjective to your society. simply put, remember, in a society of cannibals, it is immoral to NOT eat human flesh. On Apr 5, 2005 1:14 PM, John Robertson wrote: > I have been a lurker for years now and have enjoyed the discussions > very much. I am an innumerate linguist, unprepared to comment on much > of the technical details of these discussions. I would, however, like > to emerge from my years of lurking to comment (of topic) on Jed's > statement: > > snip > "Throughout history, capitalists have sacrificed millions of lives and > their own futures time after time with stupid, self-destructive > behavior. This is human nature. Capitalism is the most efficient way to > allocate money and resources, but it does not promote morality or human > decency any more than communism does. It is an amoral economic system. > Engineering is the most efficient way to build machinery, and it is > equally amoral. It works just as well whether you build lifesaving > machinery or instruments to torture people with." > and snip > > The question of morality is an interesting one. English has three > terms: moral, immoral, amoral. Taken by themselves the words have a > positive, negative and neutral connotation. The referents to which the > words might attach, however, are another issue. What was immoral for > Stalin's Communism, might have been fine and dandy for Roosevelt's > democracy, and vice versa. The real question is if there is a basis for > determining morality independent of Stalin's communist culture or > Roosevelt's capitalist culture. There seems to be an overwhelming if > not universal sense, for example, that incest is neither moral, nor > amoral -- Egyptian and Incan practice of marriage (kings and queens) > not withstanding. In general, we humans have a hard time believing that > wanton murder for selfish and personal gain is acceptable behavior. > These may well be examples of behavior that the majority of the human > race might describe using "immoral" (whatever the term for > "unacceptable behavior"). > > However, since there is so much gray area in determining behavior that > is moral, immoral, or amoral, I have to believe that it is impossible > to persuade anyone with fixed beliefs to change. Therefore, I doubt > that this will persuade Jed: (a) It is harder to dismiss communism as > an economic system from communism an ideo-political system than it is > to separate capitalism as an economic system from capitalism as a > political system. It is fair to say, I believe, that capitalism, past > and present, encompasses more diversity of political systems than > communism ever did. (b) If we are to believe the The Black Book of > Communism: Crimes, Terror, Repression (by Stéphane Courtois, Nicolas > Werth, Jean-Louis Panné, Andrzej Paczkowski, Karel Bartosek ...), the > behavior engendered by Communism in the 20th Century was directly and > indirectly responsible for the deaths of from 80 to 100 million people. > I find such wanton, selfish killing immoral. I may be wrong, but I do > not believe that as many people who suffered in Jed's thrall of > capitalism in the same century were killed for the same wanton, selfish > reasons. One might argue that the flourishing of technology helped more > people under capitalism than it did under Communism. > > It is probably fair to say that what we believe is what we are willing > to act on. What we choose to believe really does matter to our future > and more importantly, to the future of others as well. The data seem to > argue that communism -- a belief system that prompted wanton, selfish > destruction of human beings -- is hardly amoral. > > -- "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 5 14:34:40 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j35LYRpA007219; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 14:34:27 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j35LYM3s007161; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 14:34:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 14:34:22 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 13:35:39 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Coaxial Capacitor Thrustor Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58957 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 7:22 PM 4/5/5, John Berry wrote: >Great analysis. >It should work IMO even if the forces are as Ampere states unless there >is no displacement current, [snip] There is always a displacement current, even between vacuum plates. The displacement current is eactly equal to the current to the capacitor, regardless of the presence of a (non-vacuum) dielectric or not. A little proof follows that the H generated by the changing E of a capacitor is identical to that from a conductor current, i.e the displacement current is equal to the capacitor current. Here is the basic picture: xxxxxxxxxxxxxx x x x x P1 x ----------- power gap <==== hoped for thrust x ----------- x x P2 x x xxxxxxxxxxxxxx Note: here interpret " " as the partial derivitive symbol below. The capacitance of the capacitor is: C = epsilon A/d where A is the plate area and d is the separation. The conduction current is then: i_c = C dv/dt = (epsilon A/d) dv/dt On the other hand, the electric field in the dielectric, be it pure vacuum or not, is, neglecting fringing (which doesn't occur significantly in the coaxial version anyway): E = v/d Hence: D = epsilon E = (epsilon/d) v D/@t = (epsilon/d) v/dt and i_d, the displacement current, is (D normal to the plates) given by (now using D as a current density vector, S a surface envelope): i_d = integral over A{ D/@t dot dS } = integral over A{ (epsilon/d) dv/dt dS} = integral over A{ (epsilon A/d) dv/dt } = i_c so i_d, the displacement current, is always equal to the capacitor current ic. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 5 14:53:13 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j35LqwpA019139; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 14:52:59 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j35Lqq3l019083; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 14:52:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 14:52:52 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050405151835.02c60be0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 15:48:08 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: OT: "If I were Pope." In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.20050405200750.006813d0 pop.freeserve.net> References: <2.2.32.20050405200750.006813d0 pop.freeserve.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_24305093==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58958 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_24305093==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Grimer wrote: >But the most effective weapon against the disease has not been the Aids >lobby's 20-year promotion of condom culture in Africa, but Uganda's >campaign to change behaviour and to emphasise abstinence and fidelity - >i.e., the Pope's position. I know nothing about religion, but I know plenty about AIDS, population, effective disease prevention strategies and so on, and this is incorrect. I agree that education and promoting responsible sexual behavior have an important role to play, but policies that do not make effective use of condoms will condemn millions of people to gruesome death for no reason, and leave millions of orphans who will starve. Most of the women with AIDS in Africa are faithful to their husbands, but husbands in Africa have *never* in faithful to wives. They never have been in recorded history, and they will not start now. Whatever good the Pope may have done, it was outweighed by his opposition to contraception and the use of condoms. Overpopulation is the worst crisis of the 21st century. Because the world is overpopulated (or to put it another way, because our food-production technology is so destructive and inefficient), the world's resources and land are being ravaged and two billion people live on the edge of starvation, in unthinkable misery. *THAT* is a morality problem. What people do with their sex organs is mostly their own business. (The only sexual behavior that bothers me is pedophilia, and the only major organization guilty of countenancing it on a large scale is the Catholic Church, as it happens. The Pope looked the other way for a long time.) If cold fusion can be perfected and agriculture eliminated then the world will support a higher human population without damage to the ecosystem. In that case, contraception will be a little less important for a few decades. But in the long term it is essential. We cannot sustain exponential growth. Population will never come under control until effective contraception, education for women, child care and old-age pensions are put in place. Mumbo-jumbo about changing behavior will accomplish nothing. People never behaved differently than they do now. I have never heard of a society in which most teenagers were abstinent. In the US teenage pregnancy rates have been unchanged since colonial times. The only reason pregnancy is declining now is because of the increased availability of contraception. I do not go along with this idea that Grimer and Pope endorse, that we should go around lecturing Africans about their sex lives. People can decide for themselves how they should behave, and what they consider moral. They need no help from us. They do not want lessons in morality from us. If they feel like engaging in depersonalized sexual games, the way ancient Romans, Japanese and Chinese people did, that is entirely their call, and their business. As mayor La Guardia said of the Pope: "you no play-a the game, you no make-a the rules." I know nothing about religion. It seems synonymous with superstition, as far as I can make out. The Pope claimed that the assassination attempt against him was prevented by a dead person, St. Mary, who deflected the gun. I expect he believed that a virgin conceived and bore a child. People who believe in ghosts, biological impossibilities and similar weird notions live in a different world than I do. They are as distant from me as the primitive tribes in South Pacific islands or pre-modern Japanese peasants. I have studied the Islanders and the Japanese. I know a lot about them. I sympathize with them. I admire them, and their culture, arts, and languages. I like their sexual morality, which the Pope would not approve of. But despite my wholehearted admiration and knowledge of them, there is an unbridgeable 400-year gap between us, starting with Francis Bacon and Isaac Newton. The Pope stands on the other side of that gap, mired in pre-modern, pre-scientific darkness. Despite all the pleasant rhetoric and high-minded people who claim there is no conflict between science and religion, it seems clear to me that there is. It is no coincidence that most scientists are atheists (according to the Scientific American and other sources). T. H. Huxley was the first scientist to openly champion science against religion. Everything he said seems correct and up-to-date to me. Religion offers certainty without proof, just the opposite of science. It asks people to believe in fabulous nonsense such as a virgin birth, Noah's Ark, bringing people back from the dead, curing diseases by hocus-pocus and faith-healing (which is to say, blaming the patient for the disease), or changing primate sexual behavior such as homosexuality. I cannot imagine how a sane, educated, modern person could believe such things, but some people do, including many of my friends. Perhaps I lack imagination. I am glad I do! Frankly, I cannot see why anyone would even *want* to believe in these things. They are nightmares, even as myths. Many religious people fear that science will undermine their beliefs and gradually destroy their culture. That is why they do not want their children to learn evolution in school. These people are not fools. They are exactly right. Science *will* destroy their beliefs and it will alienate their children. The sooner, the better, as far as I am concerned. Religion has brought about much of permanent value, such as Christian morality and Buddhist philosophy. But it cannot coexist forever in a society that must have science and progress to survive. We have freed ourselves from the limits of nature such as disease and starvation. We now control our own destiny and the fate of the earth. We have the power to destroy the earth with superstition, ignorance and overpopulation, or to save it with enlightened science. Science has given mankind more understanding, more power, truth, freedom, and more genuine, mature happiness, dignity, purpose and opportunity than all of the 10,000 years of religion it has supplanted. It is the best world view yet devised. It is revolutionary. It conflicts with religion and with all other premodern belief systems. Only one can survive. Either you believe in experiments, evidence and the laws of nature, or you believe that all living species were crowded onto single a wooden boat, and a women had a male child without having sex. You cannot believe both. People who say they believe both are fooling themselves, or driving themselves into a mild form of mental illness. Of course science has brought about terrible things, too. It gave us nuclear weapons and it contributed much to the Third Reich. But for that matter, religion has generated much misery, oppression and war, most recently in the 9/11 attacks. Regarding the central tenet of religion, the existence of God, I have not studied this in any depth, but as far as I can tell, arguments for the existence of God are logical fallacies. That is, they lead to infinite regressions, or they are not falsifiable, or they lack consequence (you cannot tell what, if any, conclusion they compel). Plus there are appeals to consequence of belief, appeals to tradition, and various other well-known fallacies. I *have* studied logic and philosophy and these arguments don't cut it, by my standards. I guess that makes me an agnostic, or an indifferent atheist. The definitions of God are so varied in different cultures they seem to have no common ground, any more than sexual morality and other culture-bound ideas and customs do. Even among Christians, some people believe in divine orgies, others in monogamy, and still others think that any form of sex is sinful. Apparently, normal, healthy people believe in every possible permutation of sex and religion, so I conclude that such things have no meaning outside of a particular culture, and they are none of my business. - Jed --=====================_24305093==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Grimer wrote:

But the most effective weapon against the disease has not been the Aids lobby's 20-year promotion of condom culture in Africa, but Uganda's campaign to change behaviour and to emphasise abstinence and fidelity - i.e., the Pope's position.

I know nothing about religion, but I know plenty about AIDS, population, effective disease prevention strategies and so on, and this is incorrect. I agree that education and promoting responsible sexual behavior have an important role to play, but policies that do not make effective use of condoms will condemn millions of people to gruesome death for no reason, and leave millions of orphans who will starve. Most of the women with AIDS in Africa are faithful to their husbands, but husbands in Africa have *never* in faithful to wives. They never have been in recorded history, and they will not start now.

Whatever good the Pope may have done, it was outweighed by his opposition to contraception and the use of condoms.

Overpopulation is the worst crisis of the 21st century. Because the world is overpopulated (or to put it another way, because our food-production technology is so destructive and inefficient), the world's resources and land are being ravaged and two billion people live on the edge of starvation, in unthinkable misery. *THAT* is a morality problem. What people do with their sex organs is mostly their own business. (The only sexual behavior that bothers me is pedophilia, and the only major organization guilty of countenancing it on a large scale is the Catholic Church, as it happens. The Pope looked the other way for a long time.)

If cold fusion can be perfected and agriculture eliminated then the world will support a higher human population without damage to the ecosystem. In that case, contraception will be a little less important for a few decades. But in the long term it is essential. We cannot sustain exponential growth.

Population will never come under control until effective contraception, education for women, child care and old-age pensions are put in place. Mumbo-jumbo about changing behavior will accomplish nothing. People never behaved differently than they do now. I have never heard of a society in which most teenagers were abstinent. In the US teenage pregnancy rates have been unchanged since colonial times. The only reason pregnancy is declining now is because of the increased availability of contraception.

I do not go along with this idea that Grimer and Pope endorse, that we should go around lecturing Africans about their sex lives. People can decide for themselves how they should behave, and what they consider moral. They need no help from us. They do not want lessons in morality from us. If they feel like engaging in depersonalized sexual games, the way ancient Romans, Japanese and Chinese people did, that is entirely their call, and their business. As mayor La Guardia said of the Pope: "you no play-a the game, you no make-a the rules."


I know nothing about religion. It seems synonymous with superstition, as far as I can make out. The Pope claimed that the assassination attempt against him was prevented by a dead person, St. Mary, who deflected the gun. I expect he believed that a virgin conceived and bore a child. People who believe in ghosts, biological impossibilities and similar weird notions live in a different world than I do. They are as distant from me as the primitive tribes in South Pacific islands or pre-modern Japanese peasants. I have studied the Islanders and the Japanese. I know a lot about them. I sympathize with them. I admire them, and their culture, arts, and languages. I like their sexual morality, which the Pope would not approve of. But despite my wholehearted admiration and knowledge of them, there is an unbridgeable 400-year gap between us, starting with Francis Bacon and Isaac Newton. The Pope stands on the other side of that gap, mired in pre-modern, pre-scientific darkness.

Despite all the pleasant rhetoric and high-minded people who claim there is no conflict between science and religion, it seems clear to me that there is. It is no coincidence that most scientists are atheists (according to the Scientific American and other sources). T. H. Huxley was the first scientist to openly champion science against religion. Everything he said seems correct and up-to-date to me. Religion offers certainty without proof, just the opposite of science. It asks people to believe in fabulous nonsense such as a virgin birth, Noah's Ark, bringing people back from the dead, curing diseases by hocus-pocus and faith-healing (which is to say, blaming the patient for the disease), or changing primate sexual behavior such as homosexuality. I cannot imagine how a sane, educated, modern person could believe such things, but some people do, including many of my friends. Perhaps I lack imagination. I am glad I do! Frankly, I cannot see why anyone would even *want* to believe in these things. They are nightmares, even as myths.

Many religious people fear that science will undermine their beliefs and gradually destroy their culture. That is why they do not want their children to learn evolution in school. These people are not fools. They are exactly right. Science *will* destroy their beliefs and it will alienate their children. The sooner, the better, as far as I am concerned.

Religion has brought about much of permanent value, such as Christian morality and Buddhist philosophy. But it cannot coexist forever in a society that must have science and progress to survive. We have freed ourselves from the limits of nature such as disease and starvation. We now control our own destiny and the fate of the earth. We have the power to destroy the earth with superstition, ignorance and overpopulation, or to save it with enlightened science.

Science has given mankind more understanding, more power, truth, freedom, and more genuine, mature happiness, dignity, purpose and opportunity than all of the 10,000 years of religion it has supplanted. It is the best world view yet devised. It is revolutionary. It conflicts with religion and with all other premodern belief systems. Only one can survive. Either you believe in experiments, evidence and the laws of nature, or you believe that all living species were crowded onto single a wooden boat, and a women had a male child without having sex. You cannot believe both. People who say they believe both are fooling themselves, or driving themselves into a mild form of mental illness.

Of course science has brought about terrible things, too. It gave us nuclear weapons and it contributed much to the Third Reich. But for that matter, religion has generated much misery, oppression and war, most recently in the 9/11 attacks.

Regarding the central tenet of religion, the existence of God, I have not studied this in any depth, but as far as I can tell, arguments for the existence of God are logical fallacies. That is, they lead to infinite regressions, or they are not falsifiable, or they lack consequence (you cannot tell what, if any, conclusion they compel). Plus there are appeals to consequence of belief, appeals to tradition, and various other well-known fallacies. I *have* studied logic and philosophy and these arguments don't cut it, by my standards. I guess that makes me an agnostic, or an indifferent atheist. The definitions of God are so varied in different cultures they seem to have no common ground, any more than sexual morality and other culture-bound ideas and customs do. Even among Christians, some people believe in divine orgies, others in monogamy, and still others think that any form of sex is sinful. Apparently, normal, healthy people believe in every possible permutation of sex and religion, so I conclude that such things have no meaning outside of a particular culture, and they are none of my business.

- Jed
 --=====================_24305093==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 5 15:50:28 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j35MoGpA010785; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 15:50:17 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j35MoA1V010714; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 15:50:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 15:50:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050405180838.02c3b598 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 18:49:41 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: OT: "If I were Pope." In-Reply-To: <4252E94A.3080904 ix.netcom.com> References: <2.2.32.20050405200750.006813d0 pop.freeserve.net> <4252E94A.3080904 ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_27741281==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58959 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_27741281==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Edmund Storms wrote: >How many more people must suck the resources out of the earth before the >Church changes its policy? I suggest that even science can not mediate the >damage if population grows at a sufficiently rapid rate. Some of the ecological damage from overpopulation is permanent. However, results from many different societies have shown that science together with enlightened social policy can reduce or even reverse population growth. This can happen remarkably swiftly, sometimes in a single generation. It is much cheaper it used to be. In the 1960s some experts worried that we would not have enough money to distribute contraception. Others worried that traditional societies would resist the changes, or that village health care providers and women would not be skilled enough to use it. Of course money is a problem, now mainly because the present US administration refuses to provide it and wants to lecture people about abortion and morality instead. There is resistance in some societies, especially those mired in war such as Afghanistan. But there is less resistance than many people expected. And it turns out Third World women can take care of themselves as well as First World women can. (A no-brainer.) Contraception is essential, obviously, but not sufficient. As I said before, three other reforms are needed: education and freedom for women; improved health care for everyone, especially children; and old age pensions. The latter two are essential because in many societies children are the only security parents have in their old age. People who have no children starve. Where there is no healthcare parents must have 7 or 8 children to ensure that one or two will survive. As for education, it turns that women everywhere want education, money empowerment and freedom. (Another no-brainer!) Low-cost Internet connections in remote Indian villages and elsewhere are bringing it to them in ways that would have been unimaginable 30 years ago. The remaining problems are political, not scientific. The biggest roadblocks, as far as I can see, are the Catholic and Muslim religions. If they disappeared overnight I think it would be a big improvement. In Europe, especially Italy, people ignore the sex morality of the Catholic church. Let us hope they soon learn to ignore it in Peru and Brazil as well. I am confident that they can and they will. People are much smarter than we give them credit for. Improvements in contraception were among the most important scientific discoveries of the 20th century -- or indeed, of any century. They are right up there with electricity, vaccination, anesthetics, and flight. Most of the hard work was done in America, and we should take great pride in this. I wish this history was taught in schools, but I suppose students nowadays hardly learn about Pasteur or Edison. Much of the research was conducted under the guidance and inspiration of Margaret Sanger, with funds she scrounged together. Sanger was one of America's greatest scientific heroes. I am inordinately proud of the fact that my grandmother pitched in to help her financially and in other ways. It was only a bit role in history, but look at the result! If cold fusion succeeds I will have played a similar small but essential role. Sanger, needless to say, fought a pitched battle with religion, just as Huxley did. Humanitarians such as Sanger have brought a million times more happiness, well-being, and solid, reality-based self-knowledge to people than the Pope and all those other mystical mumblers tied together. Nowadays many liberal religious people honor Sanger but they were no help back then when she needed them. She had to fight them every step of the way, just as CF researchers have to fight the DoE. - Jed --=====================_27741281==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Edmund Storms wrote:

How many more people must suc= k the resources out of the earth before the Church changes its policy? I suggest that even science can not mediate the damage if population grows at a sufficiently rapid rate.

Some of the ecological damage from overpopulation is permanent. However, results from many different societies have shown that science together with enlightened social policy can reduce or even reverse population growth. This can happen remarkably swiftly, sometimes in a single generation. It is much cheaper it used to be. In the 1960s some experts worried that we would not have enough money to distribute contraception. Others worried that traditional societies would resist the changes, or that village health care providers and women would not be skilled enough to use it. Of course money is a problem, now mainly because the present US administration refuses to provide it and wants to lecture people about abortion and morality instead. There is resistance in some societies, especially those mired in war such as Afghanistan. But there is less resistance than many people expected. And it turns out Third World women can take care of themselves as well as First World women can. (A no-brainer.)

Contraception is essential, obviously, but not sufficient. As I said before, three other reforms are needed: education and freedom for women; improved health care for everyone, especially children; and old age pensions. The latter two are essential because in many societies children are the only security parents have in their old age. People who have no children starve. Where there is no healthcare parents must have 7 or 8 children to ensure that one or two will survive.

As for education, it turns that women everywhere want education, money empowerment and freedom. (Another no-brainer!) Low-cost Internet connections in remote Indian villages and elsewhere are bringing it to them in ways that would have been unimaginable 30 years ago.

The remaining problems are political, not scientific. The biggest roadblocks, as far as I can see, are the Catholic and Muslim religions. If they disappeared overnight I think it would be a big improvement. In Europe, especially Italy, people ignore the sex morality of the Catholic church. Let us hope they soon learn to ignore it in Peru and Brazil as well. I am confident that they can and they will. People are much smarter than we give them credit for.

Improvements in contraception were among the most important scientific discoveries of the 20th century -- or indeed, of any century. They are right up there with electricity, vaccination, anesthetics, and flight. Most of the hard work was done in America, and we should take great pride in this. I wish this history was taught in schools, but I suppose students nowadays hardly learn about Pasteur or Edison. Much of the research was conducted under the guidance and inspiration of Margaret Sanger, with funds she scrounged together. Sanger was one of America's greatest scientific heroes. I am inordinately proud of the fact that my grandmother pitched in to help her financially and in other ways. It was only a bit role in history, but look at the result! If cold fusion succeeds I will have played a similar small but essential role. Sanger, needless to say, fought a pitched battle with religion, just as Huxley did. Humanitarians such as Sanger have brought a million times more happiness, well-being, and solid, reality-based self-knowledge to people than the Pope and all those other mystical mumblers tied together. Nowadays many liberal religious people honor Sanger but they were no help back then when she needed them. She had to fight them every step of the way, just as CF researchers have to fight the DoE.

- Jed
--=====================_27741281==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 5 17:03:06 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3602rh1003583; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 17:02:54 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3602oRV003556; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 17:02:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 17:02:50 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 16:04:20 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Coaxial Capacitor Thrustor Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58960 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Slight typo, due to cutting and pasting instead of retyping, corrected near bottom as noted. There is always a displacement current, even between vacuum plates. The displacement current is eactly equal to the current to the capacitor, regardless of the presence of a (non-vacuum) dielectric or not. A little proof follows that the H generated by the changing E of a capacitor is identical to that from a conductor current, i.e the displacement current is equal to the capacitor current. Here is the basic picture: xxxxxxxxxxxxxx x x x x P1 x ----------- power gap <==== hoped for thrust x ----------- x x P2 x x xxxxxxxxxxxxxx Note: here interpret " " as the partial derivitive symbol below. The capacitance of the capacitor is: C = epsilon A/d where A is the plate area and d is the separation. The conduction current is then: i_c = C dv/dt = (epsilon A/d) dv/dt On the other hand, the electric field in the dielectric, be it pure vacuum or not, is, neglecting fringing (which doesn't occur significantly in the coaxial version anyway): E = v/d Hence: D = epsilon E = (epsilon/d) v D/@t = (epsilon/d) v/dt and i_d, the displacement current, is (D normal to the plates) given by (now using D as a current density vector, S a surface envelope): i_d = integral over A{ D/@t dot dS } = integral over A{ (epsilon/d) dv/dt dS} = integral (epsilon A/d) dv/dt <======= typo corrected = i_c so i_d, the displacement current, is always equal to the capacitor current i_c. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 5 17:44:58 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j360ilh1020830; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 17:44:48 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j360ig6i020787; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 17:44:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 17:44:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 16:46:12 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: vortex mystery Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58961 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 4:28 PM 4/5/5, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >In reply to Horace Heffner's message of Thu, 31 Mar 2005 23:33:55 >-0900: >Hi Horace, > >Thanks. I have now derived the formula for myself, so I understand >where it comes from, and what the various constants mean. I have >also applied the same derivation principle to an active vortex >that it constantly being "topped up" to maintain a constant level. >The result for a vortex with no initial angular velocity Uh, if there is no initial angular velocity the water merely runs down the drain. Not sure what you mean here. >can be >found at >http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/vortex-shape.mcd >and >http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/vortex-shape.gif Glad to see you are making progress. > >I'm still thinking about how to correctly introduce an initial >angular momentum. I may try it with a fixed angular velocity at >the rim, and see what happens. (This is what one would get with >tangential addition of water as in one of your previous drawings). The thing that strikes me as most important is the equation of the surface countour. If you accept that all the water above the drain initially (instantly) goes down the drain, then what is left is a body of water with a surface countour. Once that surface contour reaches equilibium due to more water running down the drain (if that is possible), then, provided there is no viscosity, what remains under the surface contour (i.e. toward the tank wall and below the surface) really doesn't matter, because things are in equilibium. Such a surface is monotonically increasing in value with increase in radius. This is because inward force which permits radius reduction is due to pressure, and pressure is due to the height of the highest particle less the height of the given particle. There can be no relative maxima or minima on that surface. After equilibrium is reached, any molecule added at the rim, regardless its tangential velocity, can be visualized as merely rolling down that surface. When the molecule reaches a point where more energy is required to reduce radius than is available from falling, the molecule stops and the surface countour is modified to a new equilibrium point. This concept could be used to develop a finite element model of the continuous process. Conservation of energy (COE) and conservation of angular momentum (COAM) are intrinsic to this method however, so the results will only show what COE and COAM predict, to the granularity chosen. It might be easiest to start with a tank with the drain open and in equilibrium, and where angular velocity is the same everywhere, i.e. h = (w^2/2g) x R^2 - 2g/( w^2 x (R1)^2) where g is the acceleration due to gravity, w is the initial angular velocity everywhere in the water and tank, R1 is the drain radius, and R is a given radius. This initial condition is comparatively easy to achieve fairly accurately experimentally by rotating the tank. Measurements can easily show if the equation is right, ignoring surface tension effects at the edges. From that point it is possible to add water to the rim and see what happens, but viscosity will play a role from that point on. It might be interesting to make a hard tank surface that corresponds to the above formula. > >BTW the initial restriction imposed on the angular velocity by the >radius needing to be less than the drain radius doesn't appear to >be serious. IOW even an initial angular velocity that produces >just a slight dip in the surface would already be sufficient to >yield OU according to the first document I posted. I'm not sure what this paragraph means. >However, I'm now having second thoughts about the validity of that >first document (http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/vortex.gif). Good! Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 5 18:06:31 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3616Mq6031392; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 18:06:23 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3616C8j031336; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 18:06:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 18:06:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20050406010601.23950.qmail web30210.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 18:06:01 -0700 (PDT) From: Kyle Mcallister Subject: Re: OT: "If I were Pope." To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: 6667 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58962 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Vortexians, OK, this is getting a little "crazy-go-nuts." 1. Margaret Sanger was responsible for some good, yes. She was also crazy. Not the kind of person I would want to spend much time with. Very pro-eugenics. If you support that, then congratulations, go build yourself a private Gattaca. Leave me the hell out of it. 2. I am not pro-abortion for a few reasons. A: It does nothing to encourage people to stop the numerous "meet and f**k" flings. B: I wouldn't know if I was destroying someone who might be something very important one day. C: I do not have to be pro-abortion just because you say so. So many people have tried to force me to be pro-abortion that I am now totally against it mainly in defiance of those who would control my thinking. 3. A religious person really really must have made you mad once, Jed? It is fine by me if you are anti-religion, do what you want to. But if you want to try and say you and the anti-religionists are better than anyone who has a religion, or worse force your views on them via legislature, well, kindly knock the hell off. You know, if we are supposed to be so pro-women-liberation in other countries, so pro-freedom, so pro-lets-all-get-along-as-equals, so pro- then why the HELL is it ok and dandy to hate religion? If you think I am overreacting, then re-read your posts. They were pretty damned irritating to me at least, and I am sure others. Not for your opinion, that is fine. Do what you want. But do not ever try to force it on anyone else. By legislation or otherwise. This statement (the last part anyways) is not directly aimed at anyone. 4. Contraception? Sure, why not. I have no problem with this. But please, if anyone out there wants to force the use of them on people who do NOT want to use them, kindly take a hike. This statement is not directly aimed at anyone. 5. Are you guys actually reading this? I don't get many replies........ 6. You know, the Pope just died. He meant alot to many people. (I am not catholic, by the way, but I damn sure respect them and am not going to say they are 400 years behind!) If this form of lack of respect for the dearly departed is implicit in your atheistic-utopia vision, then count me completely out. 7. If this continued anti-religious bias is to be embraced and accepted, then do not EVER ask me to show compassion towards some special interest group of to feel sorry for Muslims who might have been discriminated against in the days to follow September 11th. Why should one group be discriminated against and not another? 8. DISCLAIMER!!! This is aimed at no one in particular! (so don't take it as being aimed at you, Jed). If there is someone who feels that the need for population control is so severe that we need to force people to go against their religious and/or moral views and be forced to employ contraceptives or abortion, then here is an alternative. If there is someone who really wants to force that kind of control on other people, then kindly do the following: get yourself a gun, and shoot yourself now. You will have accomplished what you set out to do: you have reduced the worlds population by 1, and I guarantee you that the cost of some contraceptives or an abortion is much more than the cost of the gunpowder it took you to blow yourself to hell. There are more, but for the moment I am too pissed off to handle them clearly. I am sorry if the tone is extremely abrasive, I am very angry. And before you judge me personally, keep this in mind. You don't know me in real life, you don't know what I have been through, you don't know who I really am. And just so people know, I am not exactly what you would call a religious man. You could call me a Christian, I do believe in God, but I have my own views on things, and lets leave it at that...if you judged me based on seeing "that word" then you are not worth my time. But I am also standing up in defense of the Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, whoever. Jed, you believe science and religion cannot coexist. This isn't a belief, you are stating something as fact. You are wrong in one case, at least. They coexist just fine in the reality of my mind, if they cannot work together for you in your reality, then that is fine. Don't presume that just because you can't make it work, no one else can. Sorry if this offended anyone. But maybe it is time those people who quietly keep getting offended themselves say something. Regards, --Kyle __________________________________ Yahoo! Messenger Show us what our next emoticon should look like. Join the fun. http://www.advision.webevents.yahoo.com/emoticontest From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 5 18:08:34 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3618Oq6032501; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 18:08:25 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3618Lmh032472; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 18:08:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 18:08:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001401c53a45$1bd5d480$d4017841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re:" If I were Pope" Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 20:08:13 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0010_01C53A1B.327F51E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-99.2 required=4.0 tests=HTML_30_40,HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58963 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C53A1B.327F51E0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0011_01C53A1B.327F51E0" ------=_NextPart_001_0011_01C53A1B.327F51E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankFrank, Thanks for the post article by Mark Steyn The word " consensus" describes the world view Mark's comment ... "Thoughtful atheist ought to recognize" ... = Thoughtful ??? As the new century unfolds , the believer will be under an ever = increasing attack. My old Chem prof was a believer and was certain there is no conflict = between science and believing God's word, the Bible. We know so little science, have such little knowledge of creation except = for what is seen. Consider we could be on the brink of a wonderful new = world of science.. but .. alas! we are mired in the self . I am better because Pope John lived and his teaching demonstrated God' = truth. A man of courage of his beliefs. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0011_01C53A1B.327F51E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Frank, Thanks for the post article by Mark Steyn
 
The word " consensus" describes the world view
 
Mark's comment ... "Thoughtful atheist ought to recognize"=20 ...    Thoughtful ???
As the new century unfolds , the believer will be under an ever = increasing=20 attack.
 
My old Chem prof was a believer and was certain there is no = conflict=20 between science and believing God's word, the Bible.
 
We know so little science, have such little knowledge of creation = except=20 for what is seen. Consider we could be on the brink of a wonderful new = world of=20 science.. but .. alas! we are mired in the self .
 
I am better because Pope John lived and his teaching demonstrated = God'=20 truth. A man of courage of his beliefs.
 
Richard
 

 

------=_NextPart_001_0011_01C53A1B.327F51E0-- ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C53A1B.327F51E0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000f01c53a45$1b4617a0$d4017841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C53A1B.327F51E0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 5 19:23:20 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j362NAa3030962; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 19:23:10 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j362N7c3030932; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 19:23:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 19:23:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <425348A3.1080700 ix.netcom.com> Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 20:25:39 -0600 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: OT: "If I were Pope." References: <20050406010601.23950.qmail web30210.mail.mud.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20050406010601.23950.qmail web30210.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <2Owvl.A.OjH.Kg0UCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58964 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Kyle Mcallister wrote: > Vortexians, > > OK, this is getting a little "crazy-go-nuts." > > 1. Margaret Sanger was responsible for some good, yes. > She was also crazy. Not the kind of person I would > want to spend much time with. Very pro-eugenics. If > you support that, then congratulations, go build > yourself a private Gattaca. Leave me the hell out of > it. The problem is that some people would be very willing to leave you and people with your belief system alone. However, there seems to be an unwillingness of certain religious belief systems to leave the rest of us alone. > > 2. I am not pro-abortion for a few reasons. > A: It does nothing to encourage people to stop the > numerous "meet and f**k" flings. Lack of abortion does not stop f**kings, which all the statistics and personal experience shows. > B: I wouldn't know if I was destroying someone who > might be something very important one day. Or someone who was a mass murder. Of course, if God wanted a person available to do something considered important, why would it matter if that body were destroyed? Many more bodies would be available. Also, if God is all powerful and all knowing, why would a body that might be aborted be chosen? > C: I do not have to be pro-abortion just because you > say so. So many people have tried to force me to be > pro-abortion that I am now totally against it mainly > in defiance of those who would control my thinking. Why do you think you are being forced to be proabortion and how is this done? Of course, many people are being forced to be "antiabortion" just because the doctors are being driven out of business. > > 3. A religious person really really must have made you > mad once, Jed? It is fine by me if you are > anti-religion, do what you want to. But if you want to > try and say you and the anti-religionists are better > than anyone who has a religion, or worse force your > views on them via legislature, well, kindly knock the > hell off. I know of no proposed legislation that is antireligious. However, I know that the religious right is trying to make gay marriage illegal. You know, if we are supposed to be so > pro-women-liberation in other countries, so > pro-freedom, so pro-lets-all-get-along-as-equals, so > pro- then why the HELL is it > ok and dandy to hate religion? I did not get the impression that Jed hates religion, nor do I. However, I do hate the attitude of certain religions in their belief that their God is better than the other God. If you think I am > overreacting, then re-read your posts. They were > pretty damned irritating to me at least, and I am sure > others. Not for your opinion, that is fine. Do what > you want. But do not ever try to force it on anyone > else. By legislation or otherwise. This statement (the > last part anyways) is not directly aimed at anyone. I would also like religious people not to force their beliefs using legislation, which is the common approach. > > 4. Contraception? Sure, why not. I have no problem > with this. But please, if anyone out there wants to > force the use of them on people who do NOT want to use > them, kindly take a hike. This statement is not > directly aimed at anyone. As far I know, no one is forced to use contraception. However, for awhile in this country and even now in some other countries, condoms were not easily available because the Catholic Church was opposed. > > 5. Are you guys actually reading this? I don't get > many replies........ Does this quantify? > > 6. You know, the Pope just died. He meant alot to many > people. (I am not catholic, by the way, but I damn > sure respect them and am not going to say they are 400 > years behind!) If this form of lack of respect for the > dearly departed is implicit in your atheistic-utopia > vision, then count me completely out. I think you miss the difference between respect and agreement with opinion and policy. I respect the pope, but I think, for what its worth, his policy is harmful to humanity. I respect you but I do not share your beliefs. > > 7. If this continued anti-religious bias is to be > embraced and accepted, then do not EVER ask me to show > compassion towards some special interest group of to > feel sorry for Muslims who might have been > discriminated against in the days to follow September > 11th. Why should one group be discriminated against > and not another? Why indeed? I agree, we should be equal opportunity discriminators. :-) > > 8. DISCLAIMER!!! This is aimed at no one in > particular! (so don't take it as being aimed at you, > Jed). If there is someone who feels that the need for > population control is so severe that we need to force > people to go against their religious and/or moral > views and be forced to employ contraceptives or > abortion, then here is an alternative. If there is > someone who really wants to force that kind of control > on other people, then kindly do the following: get > yourself a gun, and shoot yourself now. You will have > accomplished what you set out to do: you have reduced > the worlds population by 1, and I guarantee you that > the cost of some contraceptives or an abortion is much > more than the cost of the gunpowder it took you to > blow yourself to hell. I bit of over reaction. don't you think? > > There are more, but for the moment I am too pissed off > to handle them clearly. I am sorry if the tone is > extremely abrasive, I am very angry. And before you > judge me personally, keep this in mind. You don't know > me in real life, you don't know what I have been > through, you don't know who I really am. And just so > people know, I am not exactly what you would call a > religious man. You could call me a Christian, I do > believe in God, but I have my own views on things, and > lets leave it at that...if you judged me based on > seeing "that word" then you are not worth my time. But > I am also standing up in defense of the Muslims, Jews, > Buddhists, whoever. We all suffer from our past experiences and are sensitive to criticism. That is why no laws should be passed for behavior that does not harm another person. However, religion seems to think that an absolute behavior exists, which is determined by God. Hence, they want to force everyone to have that behavior. That is the problem, not the reverse, which causes you heart burn. > > Jed, you believe science and religion cannot coexist. > This isn't a belief, you are stating something as > fact. You are wrong in one case, at least. They > coexist just fine in the reality of my mind, if they > cannot work together for you in your reality, then > that is fine. Don't presume that just because you > can't make it work, no one else can. I think Jed was making the general observation that logic based on science has a hard time with faith based on religion. If you can, as many people do, occupy both worlds without conflict, you are very much like most people. > > Sorry if this offended anyone. But maybe it is time > those people who quietly keep getting offended > themselves say something. No offense taken. Regards, Ed > > Regards, > --Kyle > > > > __________________________________ > Yahoo! Messenger > Show us what our next emoticon should look like. Join the fun. > http://www.advision.webevents.yahoo.com/emoticontest > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 5 19:48:19 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j362mAa3010941; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 19:48:10 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j362m6tR010910; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 19:48:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 19:48:06 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <22354309.1112755680156.JavaMail.root wamui09.slb.atl.earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 22:47:59 -0400 (GMT-04:00) From: Jed Rothwell Reply-To: Jed Rothwell To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: OT: "If I were Pope." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Earthlink Zoo Mail 1.0 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58965 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Kyle Mcallister writes: > 1. Margaret Sanger was responsible for some good, yes. > She was also crazy. Not the kind of person I would > want to spend much time with. That's true. She was strange and difficult, but geniuses who are driven to do things against the will of society are often like that. Many CF researchers are annoying for the same reason. > 2. I am not pro-abortion for a few reasons. Me neither. But I can't have a baby, so I defer to those who can. > 3. A religious person really really must have made you > mad once, Jed? Nope, never. > It is fine by me if you are > anti-religion, do what you want to. I am not, actually. That is a bit like saying I am against South Pacific witch doctoring, or against traditional Japanese folk beliefs and shamanistic rituals. I have seen them performed in person. I find these beliefs fascinating. They tell us much about human nature and our wishes fears and desires. But they are part of the dead past. I could no more believe in them than I could bring myself to believe in Santa Claus. And I feel exactly the same way about all Western religion. I suppose that is one of the risks you take when you spend your youth in a distant foreign culture. It gives you perspective and makes you question your own background and beliefs. > But if you want to > try and say you and the anti-religionists are better > than anyone who has a religion . . . Science is the best belief system by far judging by actual results: prosperity, freedom and happiness. Inasmuch as it conflicts with religion or shamanism, I am sure it is right and they are wrong. Of course that is *my* culture, and I cannot escape it. > . . . or worse force your > views on them via legislature, well, kindly knock the > hell off. I can't imagine doing that, except in a few very narrow contexts. For example, I would insist that science be taught in public school biology classes. If private schools want to teach creationism instead, that is their business and I would not dream of interfering. > You know, if we are supposed to be so > pro-women-liberation in other countries, so > pro-freedom, so pro-lets-all-get-along-as-equals, so > pro- then why the HELL is it > ok and dandy to hate religion? When religion causes harm, I hate it. Ditto science, of course! When the Catholic Church campaigns against condoms that kills millions of people. When it causes no harm and does not bother me, I could not care less what people do in churches. When they build houses for the poor and do other good things, I am happy to join them, and contribute money. After all, science is derived from Christianity via enlightenment philosophy. It is based on individualism, democracy, love of truth, academic freedom and much else that was developed by the church. It is an improved version of religion, without the supernatural nonsense. Thomas Jefferson cut out all of the miraculous and supernatural parts of the bible with scissors to develop this line of thinking. He was on the right track. > If you think I am > overreacting, then re-read your posts. They were > pretty damned irritating to me at least, and I am sure > others. I am sorry about that, but after all, I find it irritating when people prattle on about religion beliefs that have no logical or experimental basis. It is all bunk -- no better than Japanese village shamanism -- and it doesn't hurt you people to hear that from time to time. > 4. Contraception? Sure, why not. I have no problem > with this. Unfortunately, many churches do have a problem, and the Pope did. > But please, if anyone out there wants to > force the use of them on people who do NOT want to use > them, kindly take a hike. When I have suggested doing such a thing?!? > 6. You know, the Pope just died. He meant alot to many > people. I know. I have been reading the editorials. I thought I should provide a minority viewpoint, since only one editorial in the Washington Post, pointed out that his policies led to the death by AIDS and starvation of millions of innocent people. He did much that was good, but you cannot ignore the harm that he caused. > (I am not catholic, by the way, but I damn > sure respect them and am not going to say they are 400 > years behind!) I say they are. I get an overwhelming sense of that, whenever I hear someone claiming supernatural events occurred, or talking about miracles or the power of faith. In science, faith is the enemy of truth. It is fine for children or holding your marriage together, but as a basis for healthcare decisions or population control, it can kill a million people for no reason. > 7. If this continued anti-religious bias is to be > embraced and accepted, then do not EVER ask me to show > compassion towards some special interest group of to > feel sorry for Muslims who might have been > discriminated against . . . Why not feel sorry for them? They beliefs are nonsense, but they are still nice people. Most people believe in nonsense, including me. I can't tell which of my beliefs are wrong, but I am sure many are. > If there is someone who feels that the need for > population control is so severe that we need to force > people to go against their religious and/or moral > views . . . Why would I say that? Why would anyone? Believing in things that are not true is the human condition. It causes little harm, in most cases. As long as you are not in charge of population policy or teaching biology, what difference does it make what you believe? Look, I presume that if you watched a Japanese shaman (as I have done), you would be respectful and reasonable (as I was, and always would be). You would not feel angry at him. You would not try to pass a law making shamanism illegal. But on the other hand, you would not take his ritual seriously. You would not expect that his words and waving paper and so on might actually cure anything, except a psychosomatic illness. Right? Well, I feel exactly the same way watching people in a Western church, or watching the Pope. It is charming folk belief, but the human race outgrew that sort of thing when we learned the laws of physics, biology and evolution. I have worked with an unreformed, unapologetic member of the Japanese Imperial Navy who thought Pearl Harbor was entirely justified. I found that a little upsetting, and I certainly feel he was wrong (and a little crazy), but I would never attack him or try to pass a law against such beliefs, or try to limit his freedom of speech. I was reasonably respectful and polite, but I never hestated to tell him that I am delighted our side won the war, and they got what was coming to them at Midway. You have to live with people who have weird ideas, and you have to be civil, but you don't have to agree! > There are more, but for the moment I am too pissed off > to handle them clearly. I am sorry if the tone is > extremely abrasive, I am very angry. I expect that is cognitive dissonance. It does not happen to me when the situation is reversed. I get a little miffed when people make religious claims, and I think it is a bad idea to teach children creationism instead of science, but I never get "very angry" about harmless nonsense that many people happen to believe. That would be like getting upset over horescopes in the newspapers, a dance craze, or a football tournament. > Jed, you believe science and religion cannot coexist. > This isn't a belief, you are stating something as > fact. Well of course that is my belief. I can't prove it. But they generally do not coexist, since as I said, all studies have shown that the majority of scientists are atheists. Of course there are exceptions. For that matter, there are superstitious scientists, and ones who gamble money at casino slot machines. > You are wrong in one case, at least. Naturally! There are bound to be exceptions. This is biology and sociology, not physics. No general statement about people is ever completely right or wrong. > They coexist just fine in the reality of my mind . . . You are a little unusual for a scientist. Not too unusual; I have know several others, such as Chris Tinsley and Gene Mallove. Chris and I used to joke about this subject. > Sorry if this offended anyone. But maybe it is time > those people who quietly keep getting offended > themselves say something. That is how I feel about religion! - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 5 19:57:04 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j362usa3014211; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 19:56:54 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j362uq83014188; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 19:56:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 19:56:52 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=R5UMLCMYIVe4zcyev6caDhiLfdb4+GGd0WPxFkg6jMhmf22ZeYCoJ8dOBlWrjMIClqGTvqjaGtdaueSqGMaWBul8WAo5VUAQBvpWyC0RrwqnlgQbwS9N8mY8ixkI1WuazwGqX5JUAYSSt3nAFTqvvli5oKCxXfN2viqDF+Fu/VA= ; Message-ID: <20050406025636.56850.qmail web41505.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 19:56:35 -0700 (PDT) From: Harvey Norris Subject: Re: OT: "If I were Pope." To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <20050406010601.23950.qmail web30210.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58966 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- Kyle Mcallister wrote: > Vortexians, > 5. Are you guys actually reading this? I don't get > many replies........ GOD comes from the inside out; not the outside in. Exoteric politics resides with the misidentification of the spirit with the body. We are not the body. If you are in the spirit of God, he gives you a sign. This sign is the passing of a body. It is a symbolism for us to follow as an example. In this specific example I recieved my own dream, and three days afterward the dream came to life. I am working with that dream after the meaning was shown to me. Knowledge is a free gift, you have only to be receptive to recieve it. Perhaps it may come from your guardian angel. Where-ever it comes from is irrevalent. What is relevant is to say your inspiration from the event. In my case I could not understand what the dream meant, but after the third day I began to see it. But because I have no solid proof, I prefer to wait. Perhaps the knowledge was only meant for me. Perhaps others will not understand what the dream means. But I will say it anyways... I sought after some knowledge, and it was given in a dream. It was up to me to interpret the dream according to my pursuit of knowledge. For me the dream was revealed in mathematics, according to my own understanding, but it took three days for the realization to set in. Now the next problem is how to visualize what the mathematics mean for its analogy of meaning when placed into reality. Thats the tough one. Something that was formerly considered impossible was revealed, but without the dream, I would have never considered the possibility. An obstacle may be viewed as a mirage that limits us by our own belief in it. Let me just say and state a problem, and anyone else is welcome to try. Perhaps you may think a computer is necessary to solve this problem, but it should be solved with just a paper and pencil. The dream indicates to me how it should be solved in that matter, and that is what the dream told me to do. Perhaps if you had the powerful computer, it might solve it for you, so I will make it harder, so that you cannot use the computer to cheat. The dream did not tell me where to start, but from the dream I determined where the starting point begins at. This is just a simple mathematical problem then, and from my understanding it does have a starting point, which is the lowest point where it becomes possible, or what is generically called the lowest common denominator. If I gave that clue of the starting point the computer experts might be able to solve it, but perhaps this is not so great a mystery after all, and maybe I am just stupid for giving the problem to begin with: which for this reason I make the problem harder, because it was given to me in a dream. Create a magic cube. Say the numbers and spell them out. Surely this is already known in the world of mathematics. And surely I am making an ass out of myself about saying about hidden knowledge; when everything must have already been deciphered. But the dream tells me how to decipher it, but IT hasnt yet been deciphered by this author, but I see the possibilities of how it should be deciphered. The dream gave me a special unique understanding about how the problem is solved. For me this is a miracle because I had formerly analysed the problem and found it to have no solution. It would take several days to supply the solution with my pen and pencil: but somehow; someway I glimpsed its possible solution: all from the dream; And I COULD be wrong. That is what faith involves; knowing that the answer exists. So everyone else can take up this same challenge if they choose, and supply that solution. For now I only say I believe the solution exists because of faith in the dream that was given. So if you want an analogy for religion there it is. The answer exists according to my intellectual understanding, given by only a dream, and now you can deal with the same problem; without the benefit of the dream that shows the solution. A magic cube is a magic square extended into three dimensions. Take an ordered array of numbers in sequential order, place them on a grid in three dimensions so that the square becomes a cube: and make every ordering appear to the outside observer to be unity. The smallest magic square in two dimensions has nine numbers. The random odds of finding the one unique solution on the flat plane is about 4500/1. If that were made into a magic cube it would have 27 numbers, or 3*3*3 elements, in three dimensional space and then the square would appear in its 3-d analogy as a cube. Find ANY magic cube; if you think it exists. For many years I thought a magic cube could not exist. But then I had a dream; right after the pope died and later by sustained concentration from the dream I found that it probably does exist. For me that was a miracle that erased any doubt. And for all the Thomas the doubter skeptics out there the answer when made is indisputable... Does GOD exist? Well dreams will tell that answer to yourself by introspection. Sincerely HDN Tesla Research Group; Pioneering the Applications of Interphasal Resonances http://groups.yahoo.com/group/teslafy/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 5 23:53:27 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j366rHvc030479; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 23:53:21 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j366rCMw030444; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 23:53:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 23:53:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: vortex mystery Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2005 16:52:59 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j366r5vc030371 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58967 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Horace Heffner's message of Tue, 5 Apr 2005 16:46:12 -0800: Hi, [snip] >>Thanks. I have now derived the formula for myself, so I understand >>where it comes from, and what the various constants mean. I have >>also applied the same derivation principle to an active vortex >>that it constantly being "topped up" to maintain a constant level. >>The result for a vortex with no initial angular velocity > >Uh, if there is no initial angular velocity the water merely runs down the >drain. Not sure what you mean here. What I mean is that the body of water as a whole has no initial angular velocity, though a small portion adjacent to the drain may have. IOW just enough to get the vortex kicked off, so that it can grow from the centre out. Ok, I have now resolved the whole thing. The complete model with freely chosen tank rim parameters (including injection velocity), can now be found at http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/vortex-shape+.mcd with gif at http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/v-shape.gif Perhaps needless to say, we missed out on that free lunch again! :) Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 5 23:56:42 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j366uTvc031880; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 23:56:30 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j366uQok031826; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 23:56:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 23:56:26 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 22:57:53 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: vortex mystery Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58968 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 4:52 PM 4/6/5, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >Perhaps needless to say, we missed out on that free lunch again! >:) Nuts! I had no other plans. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 6 00:10:01 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3679rvc004413; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 00:09:54 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3679qwI004403; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 00:09:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 00:09:52 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 23:11:21 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: OT: Question regarding condoms Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58969 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I have heard numbers that state some condoms are 97 percent effective, or 95 percent effective. Anyone know exactly what this means? To what period does this apply? Or does it apply to one or more uses? Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 6 01:10:05 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3689rvc025015; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 01:09:54 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3689o40024987; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 01:09:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 01:09:50 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 00:11:16 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: OT: "If I were Pope." Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58970 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 7:56 PM 4/5/5, Harvey Norris wrote: [snip] >Find ANY magic cube; if you think it exists. [snip] Hopefully you have seen the article by Eric W Weisstein, "Semiperfect Magic Cube," from Mathworld, A Wolfram Resource, Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 6 01:19:31 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j368JIvc028480; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 01:19:18 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j368JGVr028432; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 01:19:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 01:19:16 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: vortex-digest Digest V2005 #161 Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2005 18:19:00 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <1l67511l2pqc6tcskps2hkuoh3egnr1fq5 4ax.com> References: <200504051811.j35IBYrk003366 ultra5.eskimo.com> <996bc83fa7d918f51544aefbcf1622e4@byu.edu> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j368J4vc028346 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58971 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to leaking pen's message of Tue, 5 Apr 2005 13:59:53 -0700: Hi, >thank you john. its a tough concept for so many, but there are no >absolute morals. all morals are subjective to your society. simply >put, remember, in a society of cannibals, it is immoral to NOT eat >human flesh. [snip] I think that generally speaking you will find that the morality adopted by any society is based on what is beneficial for the survival of that society. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 6 05:19:19 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j36CJBhk014857; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 05:19:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j36CJ5D7014819; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 05:19:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 05:19:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001201c53aa2$cef4a660$ac017841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: vortex Digest V2005 #161 Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 07:18:56 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000E_01C53A78.E5845A30"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-98.0 required=4.0 tests=HTML_30_40,HTML_MESSAGE, J_CHICKENPOX_53,J_CHICKENPOX_64,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58972 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C53A78.E5845A30 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000F_01C53A78.E5876770" ------=_NextPart_001_000F_01C53A78.E5876770 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankRobin's gif >If the drain radius is chosen smaller than the hole radius,then no = water flows,and there is no vortex. If the drain radius is chosen larger = then the hole radius, then water leaving at the larger radius has less = kinetic energy, What am I missing? Flow is required to produce the vortex.. the vortex dynamic changes to = correct for smaller radius drain hole but flow does not cease. The shape of the tank, i.e. round, square, cone, produces different = configurations of vortex. Some of which are diagonal at times but in = constant flux due to counter rotational forces. As my old prof once said.. one can perform wonders with numbers while = eating cucumbers. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_000F_01C53A78.E5876770 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Robin's gif
 
 
>If the drain radius is chosen smaller than the hole radius,then = no=20 water flows,and there is no vortex. If the drain radius is chosen larger = then=20 the hole radius, then water leaving at the larger radius has less = kinetic=20 energy,
 
What am I missing?
 
 Flow is required to produce the vortex.. the vortex dynamic = changes=20 to correct for smaller radius drain hole but flow does not cease.
The shape of the tank, i.e. round, square, cone, produces different = configurations of vortex. Some of which are diagonal at times but in = constant=20 flux due to counter rotational forces.
 
As my old prof once said.. one can perform wonders with numbers = while=20 eating cucumbers.
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_000F_01C53A78.E5876770-- ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C53A78.E5845A30 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000d01c53aa2$ce3bddb0$ac017841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C53A78.E5845A30-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 6 05:42:57 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j36Cglhk024073; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 05:42:49 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j36Cgj66024056; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 05:42:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 05:42:45 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=CYryCSCSwsDdxZIpFpZGpPJre4mFsQmEnO7P20JEc4NYi9A4Srd7A7Z7uT0I0BBe3eCkGP1BlSggc9BpX/WoKU3bTK1RaCxvuncRnkPfzFqIx5Zs46P2KJbp11L+QPXRDZ6vZDanOxgF8b/F8rUA0v5mEJkOZix8i03KjXpQZok= ; Message-ID: <20050406124238.70751.qmail web51705.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 05:42:38 -0700 (PDT) From: Terry Blanton Subject: Re: OT: "If I were Pope." To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: 6667 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1650028813-1112791358=:69641" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58973 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-1650028813-1112791358=:69641 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Ah! The answer really *is* 42! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Answer_to_Life,_the_Universe,_and_Everything Horace Heffner wrote: Hopefully you have seen the article by Eric W Weisstein, "Semiperfect Magic Cube," from Mathworld, A Wolfram Resource, __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --0-1650028813-1112791358=:69641 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Ah!  The answer really *is* 42!
 
Hopefully you have seen the article by Eric W Weisstein, "Semiperfect Magic
Cube," from Mathworld, A Wolfram Resource,

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com --0-1650028813-1112791358=:69641-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 6 07:07:48 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j36E7Xhk003816; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 07:07:33 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j36E7TsC003752; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 07:07:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 07:07:29 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) In-Reply-To: <200504061219.j36CJfkI015023 ultra5.eskimo.com> References: <200504061219.j36CJfkI015023 ultra5.eskimo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: John Robertson Subject: Re: If I Were Pope Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 08:07:23 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58974 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I find Jed's method of argumentation interesting, even effective, but in many cases inherently contradictory. Consider his opening sentence: " I know nothing about religion...." Later he repeats himself: " I know nothing about religion." His next statement, however, pretends that he knows something more than nothing: "It seems synonymous with superstition, as far as I can make out." He continues, saying that what religious people believe in are "nightmares, even as myths." I agree with Jed that he knows nothing about religion, given his lack of sophistication regarding the rich subtleties that genuinely religious people enjoy. As a religious person, I have to smile at the outburst (I think outburst is a fair word) that his innocent knowledge of religion produces. Even if he does not understand the intellect of those "taken in" by his caricature of religion, one wonders why he cannot at the very minimum come to some kind of appreciation for religion, at least anthropologically, that he has for "the Islanders and the Japanese." Whereas he "knows nothing of religion," by his own admission, he claims to know a lot about the islanders and the pre-modern Japanese: "I sympathize with them. I admire them, and their culture, arts, and languages." Are we religious people so stupid that what we believe has no inherent worth -- unlike the culture, art and sexual mores of the pre-modern Japanese? Jed represents himself over again as someone who knows nothing about religion, but at the same time represents himself as someone who knows enough about religion to imply that people are silly who find their religious beliefs sacred, valuable, even practical in every day life -- holding beliefs that are beneath contempt; --and if not beneath contempt, at least worthy of the derision (again, I believe derision is the right word) heaped upon them in his comments. It does not take a geiger counter to detect a hyperbolic, radioactive prejudice. To say that religion is inferior to agnosticism or atheism on grounds that religion is harmful and agnosticism/atheism is not betrays a silly scold. I won't here, but I could make a case that the systematic rooting-out of the putative opiate of the people among at least half the world's population has caused significant harm, even death, to scores of millions of people. While Jed claims to know nothing about religion, he claims to know a lot about AIDS. One wonders. While it is true that there may be more than the Ugandan mantra "ABC" (abstinence, be faithful, use condoms if sexually active) that prompted a dramatic downturn in Ugandan AIDS, it is also true that something dramatic has happened to the minds of large numbers of Ugandans. To quote what I take to be a reasonable organization reporting on this drop (http://www.avert.org/aidsuganda.htm): "it seems that the message about HIV and AIDS has been effectively communicated to a diverse population by the government and by word of mouth. Ugandan people have themselves to thank, in part, for the reduction in the HIV prevalence rate. Much of the prevention work that has been done in Uganda has occurred at grass-roots levels, with a multitude of tiny organisations educating their peers, mainly made up of people who were themselves HIV+. There has been a reduction in some types of risky behaviour, and there is a high level of AIDS-awareness amongst people generally." The Ugandan data give the lie to Jed's statement, "mumbo-jumbo about changing behavior will accomplish nothing. People never behaved differently than they do now." There is overwhelming evidence that behavior HAS changed, and there is PLENTY of evidence to show that the change has occurred at the grass-roots level -- it is not an imposition from without, despite claims to the contrary. Anyone who denies this is so blinded by their religious animus that they are willing to ignore the data. I do not know if this is directly owing to religion, but I am saying that whatever prompted the change -- "a multitude of tiny organizations educating their peers" -- squares with the idea that abstinence before marriage and fidelity after marriage (otherwise use condoms) (ABC) is a recipe that has literally saved lives and continues to do so. Why do anti-religionists despise the president of Uganda's ABC if its application (and it has been and is being applied) is true? I'm hardly a victim, but as one who has on more than one occasion felt the venimous effects of anti-religionsits' bite, the answer is not far to seek. Jed says that "religion offers certainty without proof, just the opposite of science." I have been a linguist a long time -- long enough to know that the "scientific study of language" has produced beliefs with no substance. The idea that language is governed by rules that produce grammatical sentences and reject any and all ungrammatical sentences is not only without substance, but is so misleading as to have hijacked the genuine scientific inquiry for the latter half of the last century. More's the pity. I also know that we all hold unsteady beliefs, scientists or otherwise -- even Jed. Besides, there is ample room for ambiguity both in religion and science. Who on this list or who in the world can explicitly specify the nature of gravity, or vortices or cold fusion for that matter. The strength of science and religion is ambiguity and uncertainty, given the interface of our humble neocortex with the vast reality of the universe of which we are part. Unfortunately, Jed at his hyperbolic best caricatures not only religion but science as well when he says, for example, that science offers certainty with proof. The final step of the scientific method -- inductive experimentation -- offers confirmation of the deductive expectations based on the original hypothesis, but it certainly is fraught with ambiguity. I would reserve the noun/verb "proof/prove" for logic and mathematics. In sum: I find Jed's attitude toward religion (and by implication us suckers taken in by religion) to be prejudicial, and if not prejudicial, uninformed. (--uniformed here implies "lack of knowledge producing a caricature of what religion means to people like me.") I don't doubt that his caricature satisfies perfectly the anti-religionist crowd, but as someone who holds religion dear, trust me, it is hardly a description that captures the essential nature of true religion). From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 6 07:27:36 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j36ERPhk016595; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 07:27:25 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j36ERMob016573; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 07:27:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 07:27:22 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050406095230.02c25130 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2005 10:10:55 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: OT: Question regarding condoms In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_55980296==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58975 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_55980296==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Horace Heffner wrote: >I have heard numbers that state some condoms are 97 percent effective, or >95 percent effective. Anyone know exactly what this means? To what period >does this apply? Or does it apply to one or more uses? I know what it means, but it is somewhat involved, and the numbers are questionable. Where did you get them? You should cross-check them with several different authoritative sources. Anyway, here is an over-simplified explanation: Condoms serve two purposes: 1. Contraception, and 2. Preventing sexually transmitted diseases (STD). The latter is much more difficult; a condom might succeed in 1 but fail in 2. This is particularly likely if it is only used in the last stages of intercourse. Failure is mainly mechanical: the condom rips or falls off during intercourse. Modern condoms very seldom have pinhole leaks weak seams or other manufacturing defects. The likelihood of failure depends mainly on the user. People who can read and understand instructions seldom have a problem, but unfortunately many users are Third World illiterates. Education can greatly reduce the failure rate. Also there are some advanced designs that incorporate spermicides, virucides and other drugs in the condom, and this enhances effectiveness for both 1 and 2 even in the event of a mechanical faillure. Unfortunately, these are expensive and not widely used in the Third World. When failure is expressed as a percent, you have to be very careful to define your terms. I assume that the term "95% effective" means that 5% fail mechanically. I doubt the number is this high, but I have no data, and I think it would be very difficult to collect reliable data. Patients do not want to talk about this! Numbers like "95 or 97%" sound very fishy to me because you can never establish the sort of thing to within 1%. Even if 5% do fail, that does not mean there is one chance in 20 the woman will become pregnant. At the peak of fertility, a woman has only roughly a 1% chance of becoming pregnant, so if 5% of condoms fail, and a couple always uses one during every phase of intercourse, they have roughly a 0.05% chance of pregnancy from that failure, which is tantamount to zero. It is nothing to worry about. If every couple in a society uses them consistently, the birthrate will instantly drop close to zero. In other words, even though individuals run a small risk when they use condoms, as a means of controlling the overall population there are no risks at all. Actually, the same can be said for the so-called "rhythm method." It is about as safe as Russian Roulette for the individual women who practice it, but for society as a whole it will drastically reduce population growth. As for STD, condoms when used correctly are extremely effective against most, but not so effective against others. I think that against AIDS they have a somewhat mixed record, but again this is comparable to the "rhythm method." If everyone in a society uses condoms, the spread of AIDS will be stopped instantly, and eventually the disease will go extinct because I do not think it survives outside the human body. (In other words, it is like smallpox or polio -- it requires a human host.) However, during the period AIDS is being driven to extinction by the use of condoms, individual condoms will still fail and some people will get the disease. It is not like a vaccination, which works for nearly everyone without fail. Bear in mind that an STD does not automatically or invariably transmit during unprotected sex or after a condom fails, so again, even if the failure rate is 5%, that does not mean you have one chance in 20 of getting AIDS with an infected partner. Also, the rate of infections for many STD (including AIDS) from male to female is considerably higher than from female to male. It is very complicated and you cannot summarize it in a meaningful way with a single number such as "5%." - Jed --=====================_55980296==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Horace Heffner wrote:

I have heard numbers that sta= te some condoms are 97 percent effective, or
95 percent effective.  Anyone know exactly what this means?  To what period
does this apply?  Or does it apply to one or more uses?

I know what it means, but it is somewhat involved, and the numbers are questionable. Where did you get them? You should cross-check them with several different authoritative sources. Anyway, here is an over-simplified explanation:

Condoms serve two purposes: 1. Contraception, and 2. Preventing sexually transmitted diseases (STD). The latter is much more difficult; a condom might succeed in 1 but fail in 2. This is particularly likely if it is only used in the last stages of intercourse.

Failure is mainly mechanical: the condom rips or falls off during intercourse. Modern condoms very seldom have pinhole leaks weak seams or other manufacturing defects. The likelihood of failure depends mainly on the user. People who can read and understand instructions seldom have a problem, but unfortunately many users are Third World illiterates. Education can greatly reduce the failure rate. Also there are some advanced designs that incorporate spermicides, virucides and other drugs in the condom, and this enhances effectiveness for both 1 and 2 even in the event of a mechanical faillure. Unfortunately, these are expensive and not widely used in the Third World.

When failure is expressed as a percent, you have to be very careful to define your terms. I assume that the term "95% effective" means that 5% fail mechanically. I doubt the number is this high, but I have no data, and I think it would be very difficult to collect reliable data. Patients do not want to talk about this! Numbers like "95 or 97%" sound very fishy to me because you can never establish the sort of thing to within 1%. Even if 5% do fail, that does not mean there is one chance in 20 the woman will become pregnant. At the peak of fertility, a woman has only roughly a 1% chance of becoming pregnant, so if 5% of condoms fail, and a couple always uses one during every phase of intercourse, they have roughly a 0.05% chance of pregnancy from that failure, which is tantamount to zero. It is nothing to worry about. If every couple in a society uses them consistently, the birthrate will instantly drop close to zero. In other words, even though individuals run a small risk when they use condoms, as a means of controlling the overall population there are no risks at all. Actually, the same can be said for the so-called "rhythm method." It is about as safe as Russian Roulette for the individual women who practice it, but for society as a whole it will drastically reduce population growth.

As for STD, condoms when used correctly are extremely effective against most, but not so effective against others. I think that against AIDS they have a somewhat mixed record, but again this is comparable to the "rhythm method." If everyone in a society uses condoms, the spread of AIDS will be stopped instantly, and eventually the disease will go extinct because I do not think it survives outside the human body. (In other words, it is like smallpox or polio -- it requires a human host.) However, during the period AIDS is being driven to extinction by the use of condoms, individual condoms will still fail and some people will get the disease. It is not like a vaccination, which works for nearly everyone without fail.

Bear in mind that an STD does not automatically or invariably transmit during unprotected sex or after a condom fails, so again, even if the failure rate is 5%, that does not mean you have one chance in 20 of getting AIDS with an infected partner. Also, the rate of infections for many STD (including AIDS) from male to female is considerably higher than from female to male. It is very complicated and you cannot summarize it in a meaningful way with a single number such as "5%."

- Jed
 --=====================_55980296==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 6 07:35:19 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j36EZ6hk021891; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 07:35:10 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j36EZ3eq021853; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 07:35:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 07:35:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050406102901.02c45008 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2005 10:34:50 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: OT: Question regarding condoms Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_56439375==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58976 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_56439375==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I wrote: "At the peak of fertility, a woman has only roughly a 1% chance of becoming pregnant, so if 5% of condoms fail, and a couple always uses one during every phase of intercourse, they have roughly a 0.05% chance of pregnancy from that failure, which is tantamount to zero." Oops. Not "from that failure." I meant: "They have roughly a 0.05% chance of pregnancy from one sex act." Obviously, if a simple condom without spermicide fails, they are back to the natural, unprotected pregnancy rate. I do not recall the peak fertility rate, and I cannot find it. I think it is ~1%. Certainly not ~10%. - Jed --=====================_56439375==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" I wrote:

"At the peak of fertility, a woman has only roughly a 1% chance of becoming pregnant, so if 5% of condoms fail, and a couple always uses one during every phase of intercourse, they have roughly a 0.05% chance of pregnancy from that failure, which is tantamount to zero."

Oops. Not "from that failure." I meant: "They have roughly a 0.05% chance of pregnancy from one sex act." Obviously, if a simple condom without spermicide fails, they are back to the natural, unprotected pregnancy rate.

I do not recall the peak fertility rate, and I cannot find it. I think it is ~1%. Certainly not ~10%.

- Jed
 --=====================_56439375==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 6 08:17:57 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j36FHkhk011773; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 08:17:47 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j36FHgro011727; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 08:17:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 08:17:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4253FDA7.20906 pobox.com> Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2005 11:17:59 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.5) Gecko/20050105 Debian/1.7.5-1 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: OT: "If I were Pope." References: <2.2.32.20050405200750.006813d0 pop.freeserve.net> <6.2.0.14.2.20050405151835.02c60be0@pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050405151835.02c60be0 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58977 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: You've put up a fabulous series of posts on several topics in the last week or two, Jed. Thanks. Jed Rothwell wrote: > > Regarding the central tenet of religion, the existence of God, I have > not studied this in any depth, but as far as I can tell, arguments for > the existence of God are logical fallacies. They are also irrelevant. Nobody, as far as I know, believes in God as a result of a logical argument. Actually, this is a fascinating question. The belief in God is tenacious, but where does it come from? Jed has said it's because we're all pack animals at heart and and God is just the leader of the pack. But IMO there's something else going on here. Most people believe in God, as far as I can tell, because someone they trust told them God exists. The rest believe in God as a result of a direct experience. And it's this latter group which makes it impossible to eliminate a belief in God from people as a whole. This actually has been studied, but I can't give the reference off hand. In every generation some number of people experience "theophanies"; IIRC the number amounts to a few percent of the population. Whether you, personally, accept such experiences as being "really from God" or feel there's some mundane cause, such experiences can be very convincing to the people to whom they happen. Some of those who are so "touched" then tell others about what they perceived as a _direct_ demonstration of God's existence; such witnessing is likely to be quite convincing, since it's first-person. And so we have a ripple effect, and each such experience may convince several people that there is a God. A rational person tries to integrate the aggregate of their experiences into a coherent whole, and they accept the picture which results as being "reality". Someone who has experienced a "theophany" must integrate that into their picture of reality, too; such people may be led -- quite rationally -- to have an absolute faith in the existence of a supernatural power. (Then, of course, we have Phil Dick, trying to integrate a supernatural slide show into his picture of "reality". Just because you remember it, doesn't mean it happened.) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 6 08:40:04 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j36Fdphk020597; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 08:39:52 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j36FdixL020538; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 08:39:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 08:39:44 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050406104714.02bccaf8 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2005 11:36:48 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: If I Were Pope In-Reply-To: References: <200504061219.j36CJfkI015023 ultra5.eskimo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_60271062==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58978 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_60271062==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed John Robertson wrote: >I find Jed's method of argumentation interesting, even effective, but in >many cases inherently contradictory. Consider his opening sentence: " I >know nothing about religion...." Later he repeats himself: " I know >nothing about religion." By that I mean I have only read a few books about it, and I am not prepared to defend or explicate my views in detail. Obviously, anyone with 16 years of education who reads the newspapers and has studied anthropology will know *something* about religion. Also, I probably know a great deal more about South Pacific, Japanese and Chinese religion than most people do, because I spent two years studying them. > His next statement, however, pretends that he knows something more than > nothing: "It seems synonymous with superstition, as far as I can make out." That is obviously an opinion or impression. >He continues, saying that what religious people believe in are >"nightmares, even as myths." Again, I clearly stated that is *my opinion*. I find the notion of a virgin giving birth horrifying, and utterly unbelievable, whereas some Christians including the Pope believe in it, and they find it inspiring. To me it is about as inspiring as the birth defects and conjoined twins shown in the Mutter medical museum: http://www.collphyphil.org/virt_tour/museum_8.htm I also find many aspects of Japanese and Chinese religious distasteful, or horrifying, and I expect Robertson would, too. And of course, much about Christianity is inspiring. >Even if he does not understand the intellect of those "taken in" by his >caricature of religion . . . Of course it is a caricature. I can hardly do the subject justice in a single message. > Whereas he "knows nothing of religion," by his own admission, he claims > to know a lot about the islanders and the pre-modern Japanese: "I > sympathize with them. I admire them, and their culture, arts, and > languages." Are we religious people so stupid that what we believe has no > inherent worth -- unlike the culture, art and sexual mores of the > pre-modern Japanese? Oh come now. I never said anyone is "stupid," merely wrong. It is like Ptolemaic astronomy: it was brilliant, very useful for some purposes, but fundamentally incorrect. I clearly and repeatedly stated that I have as much respect for Western religion as for the Japanese. But they are equally distant from me. They are 400 years in my past. They are like sustenance farming by hand -- an ancient, honorable, and fascinating way of life that I much admire, but I could not return to it even if I wanted to. Robertson is putting words in my mouth. He should debate with what I actually said, not with what he thinks I think. >Jed represents himself over again as someone who knows nothing about >religion, but at the same time represents himself as someone who knows >enough about religion to imply that people are silly who find their >religious beliefs sacred, valuable, even practical in every day life -- >holding beliefs that are beneath contempt; Many things are valuable and practical, but wrong. Ptolemaic astronomy is a perfect example. Many folk beliefs, folk cures, and architectural rules of thumb used by peasants are wrong but they work well enough. I never said "silly." "Sacred" is a state mind I cannot comment on, except to say the Shamans I have encountered seemed as honest and sacred in their own minds as any Christian, but I expect Robertson would find them kind of creepy, and even blasphemous. Actually, I am probably more open and accepting of the wide variety beliefs than the average Christian or Shaman is. I can report that most Japanese Shamans and other religious people find Christian beliefs outlandish and grotesque. They see absolutely nothing sacred about virgin births or the symbolic cannibalism in the Catholic mass. I have studied genuine (non-symbolic) religious cannibalism -- that is, eating your dead relatives as a sign of respect and love. It does not seem any better or worse than the Catholic variety to me. Both are moving and profound ceremonies once you get used to the idea. I would see nothing wrong with the genuine version except, unfortunately, it spreads Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease. >While Jed claims to know nothing about religion, he claims to know a lot >about AIDS. One wonders. While it is true that there may be more than the >Ugandan mantra "ABC" (abstinence, be faithful, use condoms if sexually >active) that prompted a dramatic downturn in Ugandan AIDS, it is also true >that something dramatic has happened to the minds of large numbers of Ugandans. Yes, I realize that condoms are part of the treatment in Uganda, and I fully support that. I also know that societies change in response to epidemic disease and other disasters. I was talking about the policies of the Catholic church only, and their opposition to condoms. >The Ugandan data give the lie to Jed's statement, "mumbo-jumbo about >changing behavior will accomplish nothing. People never behaved >differently than they do now." That was an overstatement on my part. Fundamental behavior does not change much, but of course people do respond to an epidemic. Then they go back to their previous behavior. >Jed says that "religion offers certainty without proof, just the opposite >of science." I have been a linguist a long time -- long enough to know >that the "scientific study of language" has produced beliefs with no substance. I have studied linguistics for 45 years and I agree that in some areas, there is not much science to it, and not much progress. I never claimed that every branch of every science is successful. I said only that science has accomplished more in 400 years than the competing supernatural beliefs achieved in 40,000 years. It is comparatively effective. Not perfect. Make no mistake: these beliefs or world-views are competing. Science does include a set of values. As I said, that is why most scientists are atheists. It is very difficult for a biologist to believe in a virgin birth or Noah's Ark, and even more difficult for him to believe in creationism, since he must confront massive evidence every working day that it is preposterous. I imagine it must feel like being an engineer or physicist who clings to the belief that Newton's law are wrong. People can persuade themselves to believe just about anything, but I expect this kind of irrationality causes a great deal of mental strain and cognitive dissonance. >The strength of science and religion is ambiguity and uncertainty, given >the interface of our humble neocortex with the vast reality of the >universe of which we are part. I disagree. Ambiguity and uncertainty are fine in religion, art or love, but in science they indicate failure. When something is still ambiguous or uncertain it is not scientific yet. More work must be done, or a fresh approach is called for. A great deal of linguistics falls in this category, along with just about everything we think we know about mental health -- I suspect. >Unfortunately, Jed at his hyperbolic best caricatures not only religion >but science as well when he says, for example, that science offers >certainty with proof. I meant just the opposite: science offers proof (strong evidence) without certainty. You can never be sure of anything in science, but some things are far more likely than others. Even Newton's laws are open to doubt. - Jed --=====================_60271062==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable John Robertson wrote:

I find Jed's method of argumentation interesting, even effective, but in many cases inherently contradictory. Consider his opening sentence: " I know nothing about religion...." Later he repeats himself: " I know nothing about religion."

By that I mean I have only read a few books about it, and I am not prepared to defend or explicate my views in detail. Obviously, anyone with 16 years of education who reads the newspapers and has studied anthropology will know *something* about religion. Also, I probably know a great deal more about South Pacific, Japanese and Chinese religion than most people do, because I spent two years studying them.


 His next statement, however, pretends that he knows something more than nothing: "It seems synonymous with superstition, as far as I can make out."

That is obviously an opinion or impression.


He continues, saying that wha= t religious people believe in are "nightmares, even as myths."

Again, I clearly stated that is *my opinion*. I find the notion of a virgin giving birth horrifying, and utterly unbelievable, whereas some Christians including the Pope believe in it, and they find it inspiring. To me it is about as inspiring as the birth defects and conjoined twins shown in the Mutter medical museum:

http://www.collphyphil.org/virt_tour/museum_8.htm

I also find many aspects of Japanese and Chinese religious distasteful, or horrifying, and I expect Robertson would, too. And of course, much about Christianity is inspiring.


Even if he does not understan= d the intellect of those "taken in" by his caricature of religion . . .

Of course it is a caricature. I can hardly do the subject justice in a single message.


 Whereas he "knows nothing of religion," by his own admission, he claims to know a lot about the islanders and the pre-modern Japanese: "I sympathize with them. I admire them, and their culture, arts, and languages." Are we religious people so stupid that what we believe has no inherent worth -- unlike the culture, art and sexual mores of the pre-modern Japanese?

Oh come now. I never said anyone is "stupid," merely wrong. It is like Ptolemaic astronomy: it was brilliant, very useful for some purposes, but fundamentally incorrect. I clearly and repeatedly stated that I have as much respect for Western religion as for the Japanese. But they are equally distant from me. They are 400 years in my past. They are like sustenance farming by hand -- an ancient, honorable, and fascinating way of life that I much admire, but I could not return to it even if I wanted to.

Robertson is putting words in my mouth. He should debate with what I actually said, not with what he thinks I think.


Jed represents himself over again as someone who knows nothing about religion, but at the same time represents himself as someone who knows enough about religion to imply that people are silly who find their religious beliefs sacred, valuable, even practical in every day life -- holding beliefs that are beneath contempt;

Many things are valuable and practical, but wrong. Ptolemaic astronomy is a perfect example. Many folk beliefs, folk cures, and architectural rules of thumb used by peasants are wrong but they work well enough.

I never said "silly." "Sacred" is a state mind I cannot comment on, except to say the Shamans I have encountered seemed as honest and sacred in their own minds as any Christian, but I expect Robertson would find them kind of creepy, and even blasphemous. Actually, I am probably more open and accepting of the wide variety beliefs than the average Christian or Shaman is. I can report that most Japanese Shamans and other religious people find Christian beliefs outlandish and grotesque. They see absolutely nothing sacred about virgin births or the symbolic cannibalism in the Catholic mass. I have studied genuine (non-symbolic) religious cannibalism -- that is, eating your dead relatives as a sign of respect and love. It does not seem any better or worse than the Catholic variety to me. Both are moving and profound ceremonies once you get used to the idea. I would see nothing wrong with the genuine version except, unfortunately, it spreads Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease.


While Jed claims to know noth= ing about religion, he claims to know a lot about AIDS. One wonders. While it is true that there may be more than the Ugandan mantra "ABC" (abstinence, be faithful, use condoms if sexually active) that prompted a dramatic downturn in Ugandan AIDS, it is also true that something dramatic has happened to the minds of large numbers of Ugandans.

Yes, I realize that condoms are part of the treatment in Uganda, and I fully support that. I also know that societies change in response to epidemic disease and other disasters. I was talking about the policies of the Catholic church only, and their opposition to condoms.


The Ugandan data give the lie= to Jed's statement, "mumbo-jumbo about changing behavior will accomplish nothing. People never behaved differently than they do now."

That was an overstatement on my part. Fundamental behavior does not change much, but of course people do respond to an epidemic. Then they go back to their previous behavior.


Jed says that "religion offers certainty without proof, just the opposite of science." I have been a linguist a long time -- long enough to know that the "scientific study of language" has produced beliefs with no substance.

I have studied linguistics for 45 years and I agree that in some areas, there is not much science to it, and not much progress. I never claimed that every branch of every science is successful. I said only that science has accomplished more in 400 years than the competing supernatural beliefs achieved in 40,000 years. It is comparatively effective. Not perfect.

Make no mistake: these beliefs or world-views are competing. Science does include a set of values. As I said, that is why most scientists are atheists. It is very difficult for a biologist to believe in a virgin birth or Noah's Ark, and even more difficult for him to believe in creationism, since he must confront massive evidence every working day that it is preposterous. I imagine it must feel like being an engineer or physicist who clings to the belief that Newton's law are wrong. People can persuade themselves to believe just about anything, but I expect this kind of irrationality causes a great deal of mental strain and cognitive dissonance.


The strength of science and religion is ambiguity and uncertainty, given the interface of our humble neocortex with the vast reality of the universe of which we are part.

I disagree. Ambiguity and uncertainty are fine in religion, art or love, but in science they indicate failure. When something is still ambiguous or uncertain it is not scientific yet. More work must be done, or a fresh approach is called for. A great deal of linguistics falls in this category, along with just about everything we think we know about mental health -- I suspect.


Unfortunately, Jed at his hyperbolic best caricatures not only religion but science as well when he says, for example, that science offers certainty with proof.

I meant just the opposite: science offers proof (strong evidence) without certainty. You can never be sure of anything in science, but some things are far more likely than others. Even Newton's laws are open to doubt.

- Jed
 --=====================_60271062==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 6 08:56:16 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j36Fu0hk027846; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 08:56:00 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j36Ftt4p027808; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 08:55:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 08:55:55 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=j0rLkWHB89FcupWR7V+3XPdwc2tED7R1MHufNKkqVqrSd0LQwfJRhgiDY68zH+9AFDibGy27BJ28d8OyG4TRwDEbmT91PV4UVjHrpRPfvidLfjQcIyVtDo6J8Sxtdhzxkvw5KTKeiqAein0X4rLuk9CmEg+rqMSsEA7k2tdrgIg= Message-ID: Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 08:55:46 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: OT: Question regarding condoms In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050406102901.02c45008 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050406102901.02c45008 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j36Ftnhk027767 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58979 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: thanks jed, beat me to it. but yes, acutally, there was a study done that showed that about 5 percent of condoms used correctly failed mechanically, usually as a result of being past the expiration date (a higher problem in the third world). ill have to hunt down the study. and theres a higher failure rate for improper use, which is more users than youd think. problems like lack of lube, using petroleum based lubes, bad sizing, improper rolling, ect. and then, you have your condom distribution drives. they dont always... turn out the way youd like. http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/halfmoon1/condom-staple.jpg something like 100k condoms they did this too, then distributed... On Apr 6, 2005 7:34 AM, Jed Rothwell wrote: > I wrote: > > "At the peak of fertility, a woman has only roughly a 1% chance of becoming > pregnant, so if 5% of condoms fail, and a couple always uses one during > every phase of intercourse, they have roughly a 0.05% chance of pregnancy > from that failure, which is tantamount to zero." > > Oops. Not "from that failure." I meant: "They have roughly a 0.05% chance of > pregnancy from one sex act." Obviously, if a simple condom without > spermicide fails, they are back to the natural, unprotected pregnancy rate. > > I do not recall the peak fertility rate, and I cannot find it. I think it is > ~1%. Certainly not ~10%. > > - Jed > -- "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 6 09:20:33 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j36GKKhk011099; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 09:20:20 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j36GKFFM011015; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 09:20:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 09:20:15 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050406115926.02bb1a50 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2005 12:19:08 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: OT: "If I were Pope." In-Reply-To: <4253FDA7.20906 pobox.com> References: <2.2.32.20050405200750.006813d0 pop.freeserve.net> <6.2.0.14.2.20050405151835.02c60be0 pop.mindspring.com> <4253FDA7.20906 pobox.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <1In8nC.A.3rC.9wAVCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58980 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: >This actually has been studied, but I can't give the reference off >hand. In every generation some number of people experience "theophanies"; >IIRC the number amounts to a few percent of the population. Whether you, >personally, accept such experiences as being "really from God" or feel >there's some mundane cause, such experiences can be very convincing to the >people to whom they happen. Some of those who are so "touched" then tell >others about what they perceived as a _direct_ demonstration of God's >existence; such witnessing is likely to be quite convincing, since it's >first-person. And so we have a ripple effect, and each such experience >may convince several people that there is a God. These events are very common, especially in response to stress. In some primitive societies, young men are cast into the wilderness without food or water and told they will not be allowed back into the tribe until they experience a revelation. They always do, and I expect it is genuine in most cases. Modern people seldom experience such extreme stress except in war, hence the expression: "there are no atheists in foxholes." That is generally true although I have known a few WWII vets who were atheists even in battle, especially when their side lost. (However, it is not a true of populations in cities who are bombed. In Europe and Japan the civilian populations largely abandoned religion as a result of World War II.) I had an interesting discussion about this with my mother just before she died, when she was still somewhat lucid. I wrote a letter about it to a professor. He wrote: "Note that I am not demanding that God interact in a scientifically verifiable, physical way. I might potentially receive some revelation, some direct experience of God. An experience like that would be incommunicable, and not subject to scientific verification -- but it would nevertheless be as compelling as any evidence can be." My comments: I think your example is out of date, or technically inaccurate. When a person "receives some revelation," he is experiencing a physical event in his brain. The fact that X caused your brain to feel a holy revelation does not mean X is actually God -- even if you think it must be. The revelation might have a mundane cause. It might even be a symptom of disease. For example, people who have suffered severe syphilis sometimes decades later develop feelings of rapture or intense sexual desire. Since the brain is often subject to delusions and malfunction, the only proof of God's existence that I personally would trust would be something external and independently reproducible. I do not think I would trust my own brain, as unlikely as that might sound. You might think a person must, willy-nilly, believe such experiences, but that is not so. Toward the end of her life, my mother suffered from delusions and hallucinations induced by drugs and Parkinson's disease. These were intensely realistic while they occurred. For example, she would become convinced that long dead relative was in the next room or "upstairs," although she lived in a one-floor house. She would take a nap, wake an hour later and remember these thoughts, and instantly dismiss them as delusions. She knew a lot about medicine and had a lifetime of scientific training, and she was not about to turn her back on it because of a few intense hallucinations. A person with a fundamentalist bent might have concluded that angels from heaven were hanging around, or talking to her from "heaven" (upstairs). My mother was religious but strictly in a rational, Unitarian sense -- not the sort of sect that countenances the voices of angels. >A rational person tries to integrate the aggregate of their experiences >into a coherent whole, and they accept the picture which results as being >"reality". Someone who has experienced a "theophany" must integrate that >into their picture of reality, too; such people may be led -- quite >rationally -- to have an absolute faith in the existence of a supernatural >power. It is quite rational, but the conclusion you reach depends upon your preconceptions, background, training and expectations. In my mother's case she integrated it into her pre-existing picture of reality and concluded it must be a clinical problem rather than a supernatural revelation. Actually, even if she had experienced a genuine supernatural revelation (assuming such a thing as possible), I expect she would have dismissed it as a clinical problem. I sure would! As I said, I cannot transcend my own culture, even though I have a great deal of experience living in other people's cultures. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 6 10:11:56 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j36HBlhk005457; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 10:11:48 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j36HBh19005420; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 10:11:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 10:11:43 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: OT: "If I were Pope." Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 13:13:35 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050406115926.02bb1a50 pop.mindspring.com> X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58981 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michael Palin writes: > There are Jews in the world, there are Buddists, There are Hindus and Mormons and then There are those that follow Mohammad, but I've never been one of them. I'm a Roman Catholic, And have been since before I was born, And the one thing they say about Catholics is They'll take you as soon as you're warm. You don't have to be a six footer, You don't have to have a great brain, You don't have to have any clothes on, You're a Catholic the moment Dad came, because Every sperm is sacred, Every sperm is great, If a sperm is wasted, God gets quite irate. Every sperm is sacred, Every sperm is great, If a sperm is wasted, God gets quite irate. Let the heathen spill theirs, On the dusty ground, God shall make them pay for Each sperm that can't be found. Every sperm is wanted, Every sperm is good, Every sperm is needed, In your neighborhood. Hindu, Taoist, Morman, Spill theirs just anywhere, But God loves those who treat their Semen with more care. Every sperm is sacred, Every sperm is great, If a sperm is wasted, God gets quite irate. Every sperm is sacred, Every sperm is good, Every sperm is needed, In your neighborhood. Every sperm is useful, Every sperm is fine, God needs everybody's, Mine, and mine, and mine. Let the pagans spill theirs, O'er mountain, hill and plain. God shall strike them down for Each sperm that's spilt in vain. Every sperm is sacred, Every sperm is good, Every sperm is needed, In your neighborhood. Every sperm is sacred, Every sperm is great, If a sperm is wasted, God gets quite irate. > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 6 10:50:11 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j36Hnxhk024170; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 10:50:00 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j36HnqNn024122; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 10:49:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 10:49:52 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=QDabP7DrDN6Rnd0ccBVNr9o6UZLXulQ+dKKGPDX85+aaOtFyy4JoRITI5eZCumx2r7y/jtGXt0eIwGDfJKbUq4BfueLTd7rEnqH0VGYs1gICHFJmGOzZZNlBEjRs74gizurE8G0ol7/1cVAFAAv+cLtOUcfLE8kkuFvHhbuZv3A= ; Message-ID: <20050406174943.56945.qmail web51702.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 10:49:43 -0700 (PDT) From: Terry Blanton Subject: [OT] The Labor of the Sun To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1355552904-1112809783=:56178" Resent-Message-ID: <3qgOTC.A.z4F.AFCVCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58982 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --0-1355552904-1112809783=:56178 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Some believe that St. Malachy predicted the popes from the 12th century on. http://www.catholic-pages.com/grabbag/malachy.asp The recently deceased pope was named by Malachy "De Labore Solis" or "The Labor of the Sun". It is commonly known that JPII was born during an eclipse (May 18, 1920); but, isn't it odd that his funeral day will also be one of a solar eclipse? http://www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/space/04/05/solar.eclipse.ap/index.html Solar eclipse list: http://user.online.be/felixverbelen/catzeute.txt --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Make Yahoo! your home page --0-1355552904-1112809783=:56178 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

Some believe that St. Malachy predicted the popes from the 12th century on.

http://www.catholic-pages.com/grabbag/malachy.asp

The recently deceased pope was named by Malachy "De Labore Solis" or "The Labor of the Sun". It is commonly known that JPII was born during an eclipse (May 18, 1920); but, isn't it odd that his funeral day will also be one of a solar eclipse?

http://www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/space/04/05/solar.eclipse.ap/index.html

Solar eclipse list:

http://user.online.be/felixverbelen/catzeute.txt

Do you Yahoo!?
Make Yahoo! your home page --0-1355552904-1112809783=:56178-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 6 11:11:26 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j36IBDhk001700; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 11:11:14 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j36IBB22001685; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 11:11:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 11:11:11 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 10:12:38 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: OT: Question regarding condoms Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58983 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:10 AM 4/6/5, Jed Rothwell wrote: >I assume that the term "95% effective" means that 5% >fail mechanically. [snip] >If everyone in a society uses condoms, the spread of AIDS will be >stopped instantly, and eventually the disease will go extinct because I do >not think it survives outside the human body. I've read anecdotal evidence some virus spilled on a lab bench top and was left for several days and was subsequently cultured. I don't know how much research has actually been done on this, or how important it is. It doesn't offhand strike me as an important issue with regard to infection rate. At 8:55 AM 4/6/5, leaking pen wrote: >thanks jed, beat me to it. but yes, acutally, there was a study done >that showed that about 5 percent of condoms used correctly failed >mechanically, usually as a result of being past the expiration date (a >higher problem in the third world). ill have to hunt down the study. >and theres a higher failure rate for improper use, which is more users >than youd think. The above information is roughly consistent with what I remember reading, but it has been a while and I can't count much on my memory. You both seem to roughly agree though. If there is indeed an overall average mechanical failure rate of 5 percent, then suggesting the use of condoms will stop aids is utterly erroneous and immoral. A male with aids who has a typical sexual encounter rate of about a couple times a week, and even uses a condom every time, will experience about five failures a year. That's five occasions of unprotected sex. The only thing condom use does, even if everyone uses them all the time, is slow down the rate of infections per encounter. The overall process, the annual infection rate, is still exponential, so the same number of people will ultimately get the disease unless a cure is found, it will just take a bit longer. That is the nature of exponential processes. Now that the lives of the infected are extended by medication, I would expect the total annual infection cases should now be increasing in places where such medication is available, unless a monogamous behavior increase has offset that effect. Even if you get everbody to use condoms this condom use then drops the infections per infected male to 1/20 the unprotected rate, but if the infected live 10 years instead of 2 the total infections per infected individual drops to only 1/4 the rate of a population that is fully unprotected, instead of the expected 1/20. Since the annual infection rate remains exponential with or without condoms, the final outcome remains the same unless a cure is found early on. Condoms therefore are not a solution. In fact, deluding uninfected people who are otherwise chaste or monogamous into thinking condoms make for "safe sex" merely moves them from a protected group into a group that will ultimately be overrun by the exponential process. Using the term "safe sex" as synonymous with condom use is therefore deadly in the extreme. It does not seem to me that religious beliefs and moral stances should cloud this issue, which is purely a quantitative one. Either these assertions are facts or not. It is important to society as a whole, and to all individuals at risk, to know if touting condom use as safe sex leads to more deaths from aids. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 6 11:21:57 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j36ILlhk007068; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 11:21:48 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j36ILh3M007037; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 11:21:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 11:21:43 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=TA/OCxv6a6Od9RZT2XdsKKaoYcmnE9fbXj4SfSexPS+dOYeNhbpNHr6JtuJee+MyeVFO5a81D9Xwc8pMcIJpwHWcLaRCyCyS4o/T0pQceQCkOCg9VRWTQtpoFUttql9MWTmQ7AXKjxBnyv7dNu5YelqcDEpqYUMNUOGXT0BwOzQ= Message-ID: Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 11:21:40 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [OT] The Labor of the Sun In-Reply-To: <20050406174943.56945.qmail web51702.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 References: <20050406174943.56945.qmail web51702.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j36ILehk007007 Resent-Message-ID: <6HCbqC.A.2tB.3iCVCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58984 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: hey. nice spin on it. i was hoping hed last that long, so hed die on an eclipse day, but that works too. so, whos the glory of the olive? On Apr 6, 2005 10:49 AM, Terry Blanton wrote: > > > Some believe that St. Malachy predicted the popes from the 12th century on. > > http://www.catholic-pages.com/grabbag/malachy.asp > > The recently deceased pope was named by Malachy "De Labore Solis" or "The > Labor of the Sun". It is commonly known that JPII was born during an eclipse > (May 18, 1920); but, isn't it odd that his funeral day will also be one of a > solar eclipse? > > http://www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/space/04/05/solar.eclipse.ap/index.html > > Solar eclipse list: > > http://user.online.be/felixverbelen/catzeute.txt > > ________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Make Yahoo! your home page > > -- "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 6 11:30:35 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j36IUOhk010836; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 11:30:25 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j36IUKB7010800; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 11:30:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 11:30:20 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=VIHkqnt5T1i8ui2YNbrAgghMZrsGJeKf3qoe9RvIVxB8YRZVk6Kv22n2bSLvc+6e1XNMwRjRZ+P6MeJuJadR+ArjPjtiP1+BoIbGsSB+y8bJ9uL1Zo0Nf8QI2uUgRiBLjCP+kJEB3l0oZ04xuMn57jdiQNTJSd/NNugln4IBnOE= Message-ID: Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 11:30:16 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: OT: Question regarding condoms In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 References: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j36IUHhk010767 Resent-Message-ID: <6A9FPD.A.soC.8qCVCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58985 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: actually, a ruptured condom will almost never lead to the aids infection of a male (penetrating). the member is still rather protected from fluid. its the other way that infection will go. even so, infection rates for aids are around one in 25 encounters for male to female, one in 40 female to male (both rates increased for anal sex) and about one in 20 to reciever, one in 30 to giver for anal sex (male male or male female) and no one, i mean NO ONE says that condoms are 100 percent effective. thats a strawman arguement. they are told that it slows down the spread. and slowing the spread of a geometrically increasing factor slows it, geometrically. more widespread use of condoms would drop aids infections by 80 percent or more. its immoral to tell them NOT to use condoms. On Apr 6, 2005 11:12 AM, Horace Heffner wrote: > At 10:10 AM 4/6/5, Jed Rothwell wrote: > >I assume that the term "95% effective" means that 5% > >fail mechanically. > [snip] > >If everyone in a society uses condoms, the spread of AIDS will be > >stopped instantly, and eventually the disease will go extinct because I do > >not think it survives outside the human body. > > I've read anecdotal evidence some virus spilled on a lab bench top and was > left for several days and was subsequently cultured. I don't know how much > research has actually been done on this, or how important it is. It > doesn't offhand strike me as an important issue with regard to infection > rate. > > > At 8:55 AM 4/6/5, leaking pen wrote: > >thanks jed, beat me to it. but yes, acutally, there was a study done > >that showed that about 5 percent of condoms used correctly failed > >mechanically, usually as a result of being past the expiration date (a > >higher problem in the third world). ill have to hunt down the study. > >and theres a higher failure rate for improper use, which is more users > >than youd think. > > The above information is roughly consistent with what I remember reading, > but it has been a while and I can't count much on my memory. You both seem > to roughly agree though. > > If there is indeed an overall average mechanical failure rate of 5 percent, > then suggesting the use of condoms will stop aids is utterly erroneous and > immoral. A male with aids who has a typical sexual encounter rate of about > a couple times a week, and even uses a condom every time, will experience > about five failures a year. That's five occasions of unprotected sex. The > only thing condom use does, even if everyone uses them all the time, is > slow down the rate of infections per encounter. The overall process, the > annual infection rate, is still exponential, so the same number of people > will ultimately get the disease unless a cure is found, it will just take a > bit longer. That is the nature of exponential processes. > > Now that the lives of the infected are extended by medication, I would > expect the total annual infection cases should now be increasing in places > where such medication is available, unless a monogamous behavior increase > has offset that effect. Even if you get everbody to use condoms this > condom use then drops the infections per infected male to 1/20 the > unprotected rate, but if the infected live 10 years instead of 2 the total > infections per infected individual drops to only 1/4 the rate of a > population that is fully unprotected, instead of the expected 1/20. > > Since the annual infection rate remains exponential with or without > condoms, the final outcome remains the same unless a cure is found early > on. Condoms therefore are not a solution. In fact, deluding uninfected > people who are otherwise chaste or monogamous into thinking condoms make > for "safe sex" merely moves them from a protected group into a group that > will ultimately be overrun by the exponential process. Using the term > "safe sex" as synonymous with condom use is therefore deadly in the > extreme. > > It does not seem to me that religious beliefs and moral stances should > cloud this issue, which is purely a quantitative one. Either these > assertions are facts or not. It is important to society as a whole, and to > all individuals at risk, to know if touting condom use as safe sex leads to > more deaths from aids. > > Regards, > > Horace Heffner > > -- "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 6 11:31:13 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j36IV4hk011268; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 11:31:04 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j36IV0N7011191; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 11:31:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 11:31:00 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <3spcf3$5urlm3 mxip04a.cluster1.charter.net> X-Ironport-AV: i="3.92,81,1112587200"; d="scan'208"; a="200136387:sNHT49293032" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.12 (webedge20-101-197-20030912) From: To: CC: Subject: Re: OT: "If I were Pope." Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 18:30:42 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <0aMRUC.A.huC.hrCVCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58986 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: Jed Rothwell ... > It is quite rational, but the conclusion you reach > depends upon your preconceptions, background, training > and expectations. In my mother's case she integrated > it into her pre-existing picture of reality and concluded > it must be a clinical problem rather than a supernatural > revelation. Actually, even if she had experienced a > genuine supernatural revelation (assuming such a thing as > possible), I expect she would have dismissed it as a > clinical problem. I sure would! As I said, I cannot > transcend my own culture, even though I have a great > deal of experience living in other people's cultures. > > - Jed I watched my own mother experience "hallucinations" on-and off for close to a year before she finally died. She was quite the rational person during her lifetime. But when she started seeing the "other people" and creatures floating effortlessly in the air that the rest of us couldn't see, it never once entered her mind that they didn't exist. She knew better! My father was terrified of the fact that no amount of deductive reasoning on his part (and, boy, did he try!) could convince his wife that she was simply hallucinating. He desperately tried to get her to pay no attention to the "apparitions", but to no avail. It did put a strain on their relationship. As for me I had many fascinating conversations with my mother during this experiential time in her life when I came over to visit. "Hi mom. What did you see today?" It was fortunate that she could still communicate fairly well. I made it clear to my mother that I couldn't see what she was seeing. Never the less I also made it clear to her that I was curious and wanted to know what she was seeing. We got along pretty well, and in some ways even better than before she started hallucinating. I have no idea if what my mother was seeing really existed or not. Doesn't really matter. However, the fact that western influenced scientific rationale would simply proclaim that my mother was experiencing nothing more than a "hallucination" is, in my view, a cop out. It's a convenient way to dismiss experiences for which it has no idea how to classify and/or interact with. How convenient to simply state that the brain is malfunctioning in some yet-to-be-understood scientific way. Jed, I thought some of your recent post contained many astute observations. OTOH, you claim you "cannot transcend [your] own culture." Personally, I would disagree with that assumption. I tend to suspect we all eventually transcend the boundaries of the culture we were born into, some more obnoxiously than others. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 6 11:33:08 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j36IWuhk012659; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 11:32:56 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j36IWrdT012635; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 11:32:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 11:32:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=RCGYy9WZJqjWDtApNQdZ00hSJLU/v8gn0HjFT0v5hpSrHjFyMNkQadCFU25cdCWzIIeW3V3nwZLBZHw5NubvKMvw6LDzE7sdK9ysHtO7mda5PCy++sEgZjtanakpdmbPTXkGq9P+HH5YiVI4QUZEDymX/7KBBrL4fCDegavSUSA= Message-ID: Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 11:32:35 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: OT: Question regarding condoms In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 References: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j36IWnhk012601 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58987 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In fact, deluding uninfected people who are otherwise chaste or monogamous into thinking condoms make for "safe sex" merely moves them from a protected group into a group that will ultimately be overrun by the exponential process that is a minority population. those that are chaste or monogamous from fear of aids that would have sex if they thought a condom would keep them safe is negligible. those using condoms, and breaking them, because they were never taught how to use them, is a larger group. On Apr 6, 2005 11:30 AM, leaking pen wrote: > actually, a ruptured condom will almost never lead to the aids > infection of a male (penetrating). the member is still rather > protected from fluid. its the other way that infection will go. even > so, infection rates for aids are around one in 25 encounters for male > to female, one in 40 female to male (both rates increased for anal > sex) and about one in 20 to reciever, one in 30 to giver for anal sex > (male male or male female) > and no one, i mean NO ONE says that condoms are 100 percent effective. > thats a strawman arguement. they are told that it slows down the > spread. and slowing the spread of a geometrically increasing factor > slows it, geometrically. more widespread use of condoms would drop > aids infections by 80 percent or more. its immoral to tell them NOT > to use condoms. > > On Apr 6, 2005 11:12 AM, Horace Heffner wrote: > > At 10:10 AM 4/6/5, Jed Rothwell wrote: > > >I assume that the term "95% effective" means that 5% > > >fail mechanically. > > [snip] > > >If everyone in a society uses condoms, the spread of AIDS will be > > >stopped instantly, and eventually the disease will go extinct because I do > > >not think it survives outside the human body. > > > > I've read anecdotal evidence some virus spilled on a lab bench top and was > > left for several days and was subsequently cultured. I don't know how much > > research has actually been done on this, or how important it is. It > > doesn't offhand strike me as an important issue with regard to infection > > rate. > > > > > > At 8:55 AM 4/6/5, leaking pen wrote: > > >thanks jed, beat me to it. but yes, acutally, there was a study done > > >that showed that about 5 percent of condoms used correctly failed > > >mechanically, usually as a result of being past the expiration date (a > > >higher problem in the third world). ill have to hunt down the study. > > >and theres a higher failure rate for improper use, which is more users > > >than youd think. > > > > The above information is roughly consistent with what I remember reading, > > but it has been a while and I can't count much on my memory. You both seem > > to roughly agree though. > > > > If there is indeed an overall average mechanical failure rate of 5 percent, > > then suggesting the use of condoms will stop aids is utterly erroneous and > > immoral. A male with aids who has a typical sexual encounter rate of about > > a couple times a week, and even uses a condom every time, will experience > > about five failures a year. That's five occasions of unprotected sex. The > > only thing condom use does, even if everyone uses them all the time, is > > slow down the rate of infections per encounter. The overall process, the > > annual infection rate, is still exponential, so the same number of people > > will ultimately get the disease unless a cure is found, it will just take a > > bit longer. That is the nature of exponential processes. > > > > Now that the lives of the infected are extended by medication, I would > > expect the total annual infection cases should now be increasing in places > > where such medication is available, unless a monogamous behavior increase > > has offset that effect. Even if you get everbody to use condoms this > > condom use then drops the infections per infected male to 1/20 the > > unprotected rate, but if the infected live 10 years instead of 2 the total > > infections per infected individual drops to only 1/4 the rate of a > > population that is fully unprotected, instead of the expected 1/20. > > > > Since the annual infection rate remains exponential with or without > > condoms, the final outcome remains the same unless a cure is found early > > on. Condoms therefore are not a solution. In fact, deluding uninfected > > people who are otherwise chaste or monogamous into thinking condoms make > > for "safe sex" merely moves them from a protected group into a group that > > will ultimately be overrun by the exponential process. Using the term > > "safe sex" as synonymous with condom use is therefore deadly in the > > extreme. > > > > It does not seem to me that religious beliefs and moral stances should > > cloud this issue, which is purely a quantitative one. Either these > > assertions are facts or not. It is important to society as a whole, and to > > all individuals at risk, to know if touting condom use as safe sex leads to > > more deaths from aids. > > > > Regards, > > > > Horace Heffner > > > > > > -- > "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to > make it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire > -- "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 6 11:44:22 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j36Ii8hk020065; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 11:44:08 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j36Ii1V6019974; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 11:44:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 11:44:01 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050406141620.02c26288 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2005 14:28:51 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: OT: Question regarding condoms In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_71379781==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58988 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_71379781==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Horace Heffner wrote: >I've read anecdotal evidence some virus spilled on a lab bench top and was >left for several days and was subsequently cultured. That might happen with some viruses but not AIDS. Oxygen kills it. >If there is indeed an overall average mechanical failure rate of 5 percent >. . . That seems very unlikely to me, but if this true it can be fixed with better education and by throwing away expired stocks of condoms. Condoms are widely used in Japan and I would be astounded to learn the failure rate there is 5%. Of course Japanese people are literate and educated, and their drug stores carefully monitor inventory. >. . . then suggesting the use of condoms will stop aids is utterly >erroneous and immoral. You misunderstand some basic statistics here. Any technique that reduces infection rates by a factor of 20 is *enormously* effective. If we could reduce any form of cancer by a factor of 20 with something as simple and cheap as a condom, that would be front page news worldwide, and the discoverer would win the Nobel prize. Also, you have not considered what I described as the Russian Roulette effect: what works for a society as a whole may not work for individual users. >A male with aids who has a typical sexual encounter rate of about a couple >times a week, and even uses a condom every time, will experience about >five failures a year. That's five occasions of unprotected sex. The chances of infecting someone in five encounters is very small. If you know the person has AIDS you will also use virucides and other means which will further reduce transmission even if the condom fails. Condoms are not miraculously effective. They may not protect people who go around having sex with dozens of different partners per year nearly everyday. But such people are rare. >The only thing condom use does, even if everyone uses them all the time, >is slow down the rate of infections per encounter. If we could slow it down by a factor of 20 the disease would decrease exponentially, because people who are already infected will die off. Also, when they become very sick they no longer have sex often. And eventually they die of old age, obviously. The other major infection path for AIDS is from mother to baby during birth. Fortunately, this has been largely eliminated, even in Africa, with antiviral drugs. >The overall process, the annual infection rate, is still exponential . . . In the other direction! >Now that the lives of the infected are extended by medication, I would >expect the total annual infection cases should now be increasing in places >where such medication is available . . . Fortunately not. These medications drastically reduce the level of virus in the blood, which makes it safer for the sexual partner. When a person who is infected takes all medications and uses a condom and a virucide, the risk of infection is greatly reduced. (Irresponsible infected people who do not take medications die off, even in the U.S.) The downside is that disease carriers do live longer which gives them more opportunity to spread the disease. >Since the annual infection rate remains exponential with or without >condoms . . . This is incorrect, as I said. >It is important to society as a whole, and to all individuals at risk, to >know if touting condom use as safe sex leads to more deaths from aids. This is absolutely, positively incorrect, based on simple mathematics. Run a spreadsheet with infections and deaths, and plug in a factor of 20 decrease in infection. Any disease will go extinct, unless it survives outside the body. I have never heard of an infectious disease so virulent it could survive such a massive reduction in the infection rate. - Jed --=====================_71379781==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Horace Heffner wrote:

I've read anecdotal evidence some virus spilled on a lab bench top and was
left for several days and was subsequently cultured.

That might happen with some viruses but not AIDS. Oxygen kills it.


If there is indeed an overall average mechanical failure rate of 5 percent . . .

That seems very unlikely to me, but if this true it can be fixed with better education and by throwing away expired stocks of condoms. Condoms are widely used in Japan and I would be astounded to learn the failure rate there is 5%. Of course Japanese people are literate and educated, and their drug stores carefully monitor inventory.


. . . then suggesting the use of condoms will stop aids is utterly erroneous and immoral.

You misunderstand some basic statistics here. Any technique that reduces infection rates by a factor of 20 is *enormously* effective. If we could reduce any form of cancer by a factor of 20 with something as simple and cheap as a condom, that would be front page news worldwide, and the discoverer would win the Nobel prize. Also, you have not considered what I described as the Russian Roulette effect: what works for a society as a whole may not work for individual users.


A male with aids who has a typical sexual encounter rate of about a couple times a week, and even uses a condom every time, will experience about five failures a year.  That's five occasions of unprotected sex.

The chances of infecting someone in five encounters is very small. If you know the person has AIDS you will also use virucides and other means which will further reduce transmission even if the condom fails.

Condoms are not miraculously effective. They may not protect people who go around having sex with dozens of different partners per year nearly everyday. But such people are rare.


The only thing condom use does, even if everyone uses them all the time, is slow down the rate of infections per encounter.

If we could slow it down by a factor of 20 the disease would decrease exponentially, because people who are already infected will die off. Also, when they become very sick they no longer have sex often. And eventually they die of old age, obviously.

The other major infection path for AIDS is from mother to baby during birth. Fortunately, this has been largely eliminated, even in Africa, with antiviral drugs.


The overall process, the annual infection rate, is still exponential . . .

In the other direction!


Now that the lives of the infected are extended by medication, I would
expect the total annual infection cases should now be increasing in places
where such medication is available . . .

Fortunately not. These medications drastically reduce the level of virus in the blood, which makes it safer for the sexual partner. When a person who is infected takes all medications and uses a condom and a virucide, the risk of infection is greatly reduced. (Irresponsible infected people who do not take medications die off, even in the U.S.)

The downside is that disease carriers do live longer which gives them more opportunity to spread the disease.


Since the annual infection rate remains exponential with or without
condoms . . .

This is incorrect, as I said.


It is important to society as a whole, and to all individuals at risk, to know if touting condom use as safe sex leads to more deaths from aids.

This is absolutely, positively incorrect, based on simple mathematics. Run a spreadsheet with infections and deaths, and plug in a factor of 20 decrease in infection. Any disease will go extinct, unless it survives outside the body. I have never heard of an infectious disease so virulent it could survive such a massive reduction in the infection rate.

- Jed
--=====================_71379781==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 6 11:47:39 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j36IlThk022231; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 11:47:29 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j36IlLAI022173; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 11:47:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 11:47:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=tqFPfyQcCLvXBCMYKtCfn6Jm9fBjGiGZW5jcfMO/zMLsjY4ytlNSGjrsAxSabjzBGkuRcmu5X3vjuUciiM2P6NSmk1kYIB+sFuuFkoCC5PgpR31TLpDSXpW/eoW68yCgBTJww12U2Xf8RqqGNw1fSgMb8fGRwuONnVTuEpoXlt0= ; Message-ID: <20050406184703.49072.qmail web51706.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 11:47:03 -0700 (PDT) From: Terry Blanton Subject: Re: OT: "If I were Pope." To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: 6667 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-976815442-1112813223=:46592" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58989 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-976815442-1112813223=:46592 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Well, if my cat is any indication, they're real. She chases things I can't see frequently! orionworks charter.net wrote:I have no idea if what my mother was seeing really existed or not. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Better first dates. More second dates. Yahoo! Personals --0-976815442-1112813223=:46592 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Well, if my cat is any indication, they're real.  She chases things I can't see frequently!

orionworks charter.net wrote:
I have no idea if what my mother was seeing really existed or not.

Do you Yahoo!?
Better first dates. More second dates. Yahoo! Personals --0-976815442-1112813223=:46592-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 6 11:54:49 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j36Ischk025839; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 11:54:42 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j36IsZYo025807; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 11:54:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 11:54:35 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=VT2EJ+ioo4kqj6BovRonlULjCxeSpUiIfp57RuWXjzCKDxN7oEa/FRCTrdnTWMj5jeNlj4kHjDzjNHdRn4st98cQQhfJfZ/kojX5X7P6lIkFcK1gBVnz2tU07ix0vMzW3zd4TdQu63mNlFZR6YZh8GH5YpHHNLuTKMwkKeTb9uk= ; Message-ID: <20050406185426.81547.qmail web51702.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 11:54:26 -0700 (PDT) From: Terry Blanton Subject: Re: [OT] The Labor of the Sun To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: 6667 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1423578625-1112813666=:80829" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58990 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-1423578625-1112813666=:80829 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Many countries are known for olive cultivation including Italy. It could be Dionigi Tettamanzi, Archbishop of Milan, Julian Herranz of Spain (an Opus Dei member), or an olive-skinned South American. My bet is still on Cardinal Lustiger whom I posted about earlier. Note that John Paul II stated that the Jews did not need to convert to go to heaven since they had their own Covenant with G-d. Lustiger and JPII were very close friends. leaking pen wrote: hey. nice spin on it. i was hoping hed last that long, so hed die on an eclipse day, but that works too. so, whos the glory of the olive? --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! --0-1423578625-1112813666=:80829 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Many countries are known for olive cultivation including Italy.  It could be Dionigi Tettamanzi, Archbishop of Milan, Julian Herranz of Spain (an Opus Dei member), or an olive-skinned South American.  My bet is still on Cardinal Lustiger whom I posted about earlier. 
 
Note that John Paul II stated that the Jews did not need to convert to go to heaven since they had their own Covenant with G-d.  Lustiger and JPII were very close friends.


leaking pen <itsatrap gmail.com> wrote:
hey. nice spin on it. i was hoping hed last that long, so hed die on
an eclipse day, but that works too.

so, whos the glory of the olive?

Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! --0-1423578625-1112813666=:80829-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 6 12:13:48 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j36JDahk000750; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 12:13:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j36JDWM8000729; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 12:13:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 12:13:32 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050406145021.02bb52f0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2005 15:13:05 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: OT: "If I were Pope." In-Reply-To: <3spcf3$5urlm3 mxip04a.cluster1.charter.net> References: <3spcf3$5urlm3 mxip04a.cluster1.charter.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_73151343==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: <1kvKgD.A.VL.bTDVCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58991 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_73151343==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed orionworks charter.net wrote: >I have no idea if what my mother was seeing really existed or not. Doesn't >really matter. However, the fact that western influenced scientific >rationale would simply proclaim that my mother was experiencing nothing >more than a "hallucination" is, in my view, a cop out. That is an odd statement. If you, your father and other people could not see them then of course they were hallucinations. What other hypothesis fits? The only other hypothesis I can imagine would be that these things really did exist, your mother developed some extraordinary new ability to see them because of the disease, and there might be some sort of special camera or other instrument which could detect them. Sort of like the movie "Phenomenon." Also we have to postulate that people and creatures can mysteriously float in air. All of that strikes me as exceedingly unlikely. I am sure that if I experienced this myself, and I had any marbles left at all, I would instantly dismiss that hypothesis, just as my mother did in similar circumstances. Of course the disease might also affect my judgement and objectivity, like being drunk. In that case I *would* believe in floating people, UFOs in the room, or what have you. It did that to my mother, but only momentarily. If you are a good scientist, you spent a lifetime training yourself *not* to believe your own impressions, and not to take anything for granted. You demand objective proof for everything. People who do that are not likely to change in the last months of life, or to relax their standards even under extreme duress. I have seen many people die and I have never seen an atheist undergo a "deathbed conversion," or suddenly start believing in things that he formerly would have dismissed. I suppose it happens about as often as religious people lose their faith in the last months. By the way, your response to these events was exactly right. Based on what the nurses told me, I would definitely recommend against telling the patient "that is a hallucination," or getting upset about it. At best you will only confuse the patient or embarrass her. I knew another patient who was completely aware that she was seeing hallucinations. She enjoyed them. She said they were the most interesting thing she saw all day. - Jed --=====================_73151343==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" orionworks charter.net wrote:

I have no idea if what my mother was seeing really existed or not. Doesn't really matter. However, the fact that western influenced scientific rationale would simply proclaim that my mother was experiencing nothing more than a "hallucination" is, in my view, a cop out.

That is an odd statement. If you, your father and other people could not see them then of course they were hallucinations. What other hypothesis fits?

The only other hypothesis I can imagine would be that these things really did exist, your mother developed some extraordinary new ability to see them because of the disease, and there might be some sort of special camera or other instrument which could detect them. Sort of like the movie "Phenomenon." Also we have to postulate that people and creatures can mysteriously float in air. All of that strikes me as exceedingly unlikely. I am sure that if I experienced this myself, and I had any marbles left at all, I would instantly dismiss that hypothesis, just as my mother did in similar circumstances.

Of course the disease might also affect my judgement and objectivity, like being drunk. In that case I *would* believe in floating people, UFOs in the room, or what have you. It did that to my mother, but only momentarily.

If you are a good scientist, you spent a lifetime training yourself *not* to believe your own impressions, and not to take anything for granted. You demand objective proof for everything. People who do that are not likely to change in the last months of life, or to relax their standards even under extreme duress. I have seen many people die and I have never seen an atheist undergo a "deathbed conversion," or suddenly start believing in things that he formerly would have dismissed. I suppose it happens about as often as religious people lose their faith in the last months.

By the way, your response to these events was exactly right. Based on what the nurses told me, I would definitely recommend against telling the patient "that is a hallucination," or getting upset about it. At best you will only confuse the patient or embarrass her.

I knew another patient who was completely aware that she was seeing hallucinations. She enjoyed them. She said they were the most interesting thing she saw all day.

- Jed
--=====================_73151343==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 6 13:10:03 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j36K9lhk031293; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 13:09:47 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j36K9iWi031264; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 13:09:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 13:09:44 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050406151810.02974618 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2005 15:53:40 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Changing your culture is not transcending it In-Reply-To: <3spcf3$5urlm3 mxip04a.cluster1.charter.net> References: <3spcf3$5urlm3 mxip04a.cluster1.charter.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_76525000==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: <2DVdqB.A.boH.HIEVCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58992 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --=====================_76525000==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed orionworks charter.net wrote: >Jed, I thought some of your recent post contained many astute >observations. OTOH, you claim you "cannot transcend [your] own culture." > >Personally, I would disagree with that assumption. I tend to suspect we >all eventually transcend the boundaries of the culture we were born into, >some more obnoxiously than others. We may expand the boundaries of cultures, or change them. All cultures change all the time, even isolated primitive ones, and countries like Japan and the US where there is a great deal of travel and interaction culture changes very quickly. What we cannot do is transcend culture or choose our own cultures. To put it another way, we can only have one culture at a time. Japanese culture changed radically in 1945. Naturally some unreformed conservative people despised the changes and they stuck with the old traditions and customs. They tried to block or undo the legal reforms, such as giving women the right to vote and letting men under 30 marry without their parent's permission. The other people, who went along with the changes, cannot now go back or undo their mindset. They cannot choose to be pre-war Japanese, or Edo-period Japanese. Americans can never return to their country as it was before WWII, or before 9/11, for that matter. A world-view not voluntary. It is not something we choose. No amount of exposure to Japanese culture can make an American into a Japanese person. (Not that any sane American would want to make that change!) If you grow up trained every day to have a scientific perspective, and you parents drill into you that you must think for yourself, accept no one's word for anything, demand proof, and believe only experiments, you cannot put all that aside willfully. You simply cannot make yourself believe in miracles, or creationism or what-have-you. You cannot bring yourself to believe in logical fallacies such as Appeal to the Consequences of a Belief. It is like trying to believe that 2 + 2 = 8. And I suppose if you are a deeply religious fundamentalist no amount of experimental evidence or logical thinking will displace your belief in creationism. - Jed --=====================_76525000==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" orionworks charter.net wrote:

Jed, I thought some of your recent post contained many astute observations. OTOH, you claim you "cannot transcend [your] own culture."

Personally, I would disagree with that assumption. I tend to suspect we all eventually transcend the boundaries of the culture we were born into, some more obnoxiously than others.

We may expand the boundaries of cultures, or change them. All cultures change all the time, even isolated primitive ones, and countries like Japan and the US where there is a great deal of travel and interaction culture changes very quickly. What we cannot do is transcend culture or choose our own cultures. To put it another way, we can only have one culture at a time. Japanese culture changed radically in 1945. Naturally some unreformed conservative people despised the changes and they stuck with the old traditions and customs. They tried to block or undo the legal reforms, such as giving women the right to vote and letting men under 30 marry without their parent's permission. The other people, who went along with the changes, cannot now go back or undo their mindset. They cannot choose to be pre-war Japanese, or Edo-period Japanese. Americans can never return to their country as it was before WWII, or before 9/11, for that matter.

A world-view not voluntary. It is not something we choose. No amount of exposure to Japanese culture can make an American into a Japanese person. (Not that any sane American would want to make that change!)

If you grow up trained every day to have a scientific perspective, and you parents drill into you that you must think for yourself, accept no one's word for anything, demand proof, and believe only experiments, you cannot put all that aside willfully. You simply cannot make yourself believe in miracles, or creationism or what-have-you. You cannot bring yourself to believe in logical fallacies such as Appeal to the Consequences of a Belief. It is like trying to believe that 2 + 2 = 8. And I suppose if you are a deeply religious fundamentalist no amount of experimental evidence or logical thinking will displace your belief in creationism.

- Jed
 --=====================_76525000==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 6 13:34:15 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j36KY0hk007718; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 13:34:00 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j36KXoQm007654; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 13:33:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 13:33:50 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) In-Reply-To: <200504061831.j36IVaWB011651 ultra5.eskimo.com> References: <200504061831.j36IVaWB011651 ultra5.eskimo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <04aca4a190d812e8691df33fd1de7c9f byu.edu> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: John Robertson Subject: Re: vortex-digest Digest V2005 #166 Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 14:33:43 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58993 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: As I said, "I find Jed's method of argumentation interesting, even effective, but in many cases inherently contradictory." Case in point: He baldly states that "Robertson is putting words in my mouth. He should debate with what I actually said, not with what he thinks I think." Hmmm. Nice to know that Jed knows what I think: "I also find many aspects of Japanese and Chinese religious distasteful, or horrifying, and I expect Robertson would, too;" and later "I expect Robertson would find them kind of creepy." Does Jed really know me well enough to "expect" me to find certain beliefs distasteful, horrifying or creepy? I have spent more time in the third world than he has. I might be many things -- even religious -- but I don't view myself as naive. The word that comes to mind is patronizing. I want to make this simple point: While the CENTER of religion and the CENTER of science are geographically separate, it is impossible to find any clear division between them. Jed professes to be knowledgeable about the human condition, but I find it astonishing that he does not recognize that both are a part of the human condition -- and inseparably so. They always have been and always will be. Astronomical prediction is nothing if it is not a manifestation of science; placing flowers on graves is nothing if it is not a religious ritual and practice, both of which have been a part of the human condition from the beginning, as archeology teaches us. I personally despise any philosophy that bifurcates the world into two camps: proletariat versus bourgeoisie, Aryans versus non-Aryans, extreme feminists versus men, Islamists versus infidels (or any religious fundamentalists versus anyone else). The most extreme examples of man's inhumanity to man are squarely a product of this sort of bifurcation. If it is immoral to kill wantonly and selfishly, then the paradigm of bifurcation is immoral, since it has killed millions upon millions. It really does matter what people believe, because people are given to act on their beliefs. Pertinent to this discussion, I also despise the unnecessary polarization between science and religion, partly because it is logically unnecessary, but mostly because it can be hurtful -- on both sides. The only reason I took exception to Jed's unnecessary attack on religion is because quite frankly it is logically unnecessary, divisive, and at worst hurtful; hurtful because he is exceptionally articulate. Finally, I disagree with Jed's disagreement. When I said "The strength of science and religion is ambiguity and uncertainty, given the interface of our humble neocortex with the vast reality of the universe of which we are part," I meant it. While logic (the stuff and science) and intuition (the stuff of religion) are different, they work together in both science and religion. Intuition is absolutely critical -- indispensable -- to the scientific process, as C.S. Peirce (some say the greatest mind produced on American soil -- yes smarter than me and even Jed): "Underlying all such principles there is a fundamental and primary abduction [Peirce's word for hypothesis], a hypothesis which we must embrace at the outset,however destitute of evidentiary support it may be. That hypothesis is that the facts in hand admit of rationalization, and of rationalization by us. That we must hope they do, for the same reason that a general who has to capture a position or see his country ruined, must go on the hypothesis that there is some way in which he can and shall capture it. We must be animated by that hope concerning the problem we have in hand,whether we extend it to a general postulate covering all facts,or not. Now, that the matter of no new truth can come from induction or from deduction, we have seen. It can only come from abduction; and abduction is, after all, nothing but guessing. We are therefore bound to hope that, although the possible explanations of our facts may be strictly innumerable, yet our mind will be able, in some finite number of guesses, to guess the sole true explanation of them." On the other hand, it would be silly to say that religion is without logic. One need only read anthropologists like Levi Strauss, Edmund Leech, and a myriad others to appreciate the beauty of the systems of logic the underly religious belief and behavior. In short: It is reductionism at its worst to draw a line between scientific and religious practice. One emphasizes logic and the other intuition, but neither is possible without the other. The interaction of our cortex with the so-called lower brain as we interpret the incredible universe of which we are a part would have it no other way. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 6 13:34:45 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j36KYRhk007962; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 13:34:28 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j36KYCtX007807; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 13:34:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 13:34:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050406163151.02973f28 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2005 16:33:23 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: OT: Question regarding condoms In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050406102901.02c45008 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_77982359==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58994 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_77982359==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed leaking pen wrote: >and then, you have your condom distribution drives. they dont >always... turn out the way youd like. > >http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/halfmoon1/condom-staple.jpg Photo showing . . . Oh no! Good grief! Lol! (Or Cry out Loud) - Jed --=====================_77982359==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" leaking pen wrote:

and then, you have your condom distribution drives.  they dont
always...   turn out the way youd like.

http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/halfmoon1/condom-staple.jpg

Photo showing . . . Oh no!

Good grief! Lol! (Or Cry out Loud)

- Jed
--=====================_77982359==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 6 14:07:53 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j36L7ehk022760; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 14:07:41 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j36L7ZG0022722; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 14:07:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 14:07:35 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <009501c53aec$a520a4c0$0600a8c0 nixlaptop> From: "Nick Palmer" To: References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050406095230.02c25130@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: OT: Question regarding condoms Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 22:07:25 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0092_01C53AF5.03C13780" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58995 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0092_01C53AF5.03C13780 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The 95-97% success rate for condoms relates to the percentage of women = (3-5%), using only condoms, who will become pregnant if they use them = for one year. ------=_NextPart_000_0092_01C53AF5.03C13780 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The 95-97% success rate for condoms = relates to the=20 percentage of women (3-5%),  using only condoms, who will become = pregnant=20 if they use them for one year.
------=_NextPart_000_0092_01C53AF5.03C13780-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 6 14:31:09 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j36LUuhk001853; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 14:30:56 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j36LUmqd001812; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 14:30:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 14:30:48 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050406163940.02c17c98 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2005 17:30:15 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: vortex-digest Digest V2005 #166 In-Reply-To: <04aca4a190d812e8691df33fd1de7c9f byu.edu> References: <200504061831.j36IVaWB011651 ultra5.eskimo.com> <04aca4a190d812e8691df33fd1de7c9f byu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_81387421==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: <5Cq6H.A.Nc.HUFVCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58996 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_81387421==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed John Robertson wrote: >"I also find many aspects of Japanese and Chinese religious distasteful, >or horrifying, and I expect Robertson would, too;" and later "I expect >Robertson would find them kind of creepy." > >Does Jed really know me well enough to "expect" me to find certain beliefs >distasteful, horrifying or creepy? Nope. But most Western people do find them creepy, especially religious Westerners, and especially the reburial rituals. (Don't ask.) Obviously I mean "expect" as in "presume" or "suppose," not "consider reasonable or due; obligatory or required." Let us not split hairs, hmmm??? > I have spent more time in the third world than he has. I might be many > things -- even religious -- but I don't view myself as naive. The word > that comes to mind is patronizing. Well, for all I know you have taken part in ritual cannibalism of the first kind. It would be unusual but not unheard of. >Jed professes to be knowledgeable about the human condition, but I find it >astonishing that he does not recognize that both are a part of the human >condition -- and inseparably so. They always have been and always will be. They are not the least bit inseparable. I have zero difficulty separating them in my own mind. 70% of scientists (http://www.atheists.org/flash.line/atheism6.htm) and roughly half the people in Europe and Japan say they are not religious, and I believe them. Why would they lie about such a thing? If anything, you would expect people to fib in the other direction, because religion is fashionable these days. >Astronomical prediction is nothing if it is not a manifestation of >science; placing flowers on graves is nothing if it is not a religious >ritual and practice, both of which have been a part of the human condition >from the beginning, as archeology teaches us. Many rituals, ways of living, and institutions that have been with us since ancient times are now disappearing. Some are praiseworthy, such as self-sufficient farming. Others are dreadful, such as slavery, war, and building Pyramids in Egypt. Samurai culture lasted for a thousand years and it was central to many people's lives and ethics. It was, in many ways, a noble and praiseworthy institution. It promoted honesty, hard work, frugality, academic study, superb premodern science, and it set the stage for the rapid transformation of Japan during the Meiji era. But it vanished. >Pertinent to this discussion, I also despise the unnecessary polarization >between science and religion, partly because it is logically unnecessary, >but mostly because it can be hurtful -- on both sides. Whereas I think polarization is inevitable, and I hope religion loses, and gradually fades the way Samurai culture did. People have different ideas, don't they? >Intuition is absolutely critical -- indispensable -- to the scientific >process . . . That is true. It is an important point. Intuition is also critical to the arts, and to living a happy life. But I see no reason why it should make people religious. My intuition tells me that God probably does not exist. >On the other hand, it would be silly to say that religion is without >logic. One need only read anthropologists like Levi Strauss, Edmund Leech, >and a myriad others to appreciate the beauty of the systems of logic the >underly religious belief and behavior. Well, I am not very familiar with theology, but I have not seen a logical basis for it. I have not looked carefully, but as I said, all the reasons in the literature appear to be logical fallacies. It is a lot like trying to track down rumors of magic magnet perpetual motion machines. The anthropology and sociology of religion is interesting but theology looks like mush to me. Perhaps I have the wrong kind of mind. In any case, many things which are logical are also incorrect. All scientific theories which were once believed but now discarded fall in that category. >In short: It is reductionism at its worst to draw a line between >scientific and religious practice. One emphasizes logic and the other >intuition, but neither is possible without the other. Most scientists practice both logical and intuitive science, but they chuck the religious part. > The interaction of our cortex with the so-called lower brain as we > interpret the incredible universe of which we are a part would have it no > other way. Speak for yourself! It is not a problem with my cortex. Seriously, you seem to be asserting that everyone is religious but we just won't admit it. Do you really think half the people in Europe are lying? That's silly. - Jed --=====================_81387421==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" John Robertson wrote:

"I also find many aspects of Japanese and Chinese religious distasteful, or horrifying, and I expect Robertson would, too;" and later "I expect Robertson would find them kind of creepy."

Does Jed really know me well enough to "expect" me to find certain beliefs distasteful, horrifying or creepy?

Nope. But most Western people do find them creepy, especially religious Westerners, and especially the reburial rituals. (Don't ask.)

Obviously I mean "expect" as in "presume" or "suppose," not "consider reasonable or due; obligatory or required." Let us not split hairs, hmmm???


 I have spent more time in the third world than he has. I might be many things -- even religious -- but I don't view myself as naive. The word that comes to mind is patronizing.

Well, for all I know you have taken part in ritual cannibalism of the first kind. It would be unusual but not unheard of.


Jed professes to be knowledgeable about the human condition, but I find it astonishing that he does not recognize that both are a part of the human condition -- and inseparably so. They always have been and always will be.

They are not the least bit inseparable. I have zero difficulty separating them in my own mind. 70% of scientists ( http://www.atheists.org/flash.line/atheism6.htm) and roughly half the people in Europe and Japan say they are not religious, and I believe them. Why would they lie about such a thing? If anything, you would expect people to fib in the other direction, because religion is fashionable these days.


Astronomical prediction is nothing if it is not a manifestation of science; placing flowers on graves is nothing if it is not a religious ritual and practice, both of which have been a part of the human condition from the beginning, as archeology teaches us.

Many rituals, ways of living, and institutions that have been with us since ancient times are now disappearing. Some are praiseworthy, such as self-sufficient farming. Others are dreadful, such as slavery, war, and building Pyramids in Egypt. Samurai culture lasted for a thousand years and it was central to many people's lives and ethics. It was, in many ways, a noble and praiseworthy institution. It promoted honesty, hard work, frugality, academic study, superb premodern science, and it set the stage for the rapid transformation of Japan during the Meiji era. But it vanished.


Pertinent to this discussion, I also despise the unnecessary polarization between science and religion, partly because it is logically  unnecessary, but mostly because it can be hurtful -- on both sides.

Whereas I think polarization is inevitable, and I hope religion loses, and gradually fades the way Samurai culture did. People have different ideas, don't they?


Intuition is absolutely critical -- indispensable -- to the scientific process . . .

That is true. It is an important point. Intuition is also critical to the arts, and to living a happy life. But I see no reason why it should make people religious. My intuition tells me that God probably does not exist.


On the other hand, it would be silly to say that religion is without logic. One need only read anthropologists like Levi Strauss, Edmund Leech, and a myriad others to appreciate the beauty of the systems of logic the underly religious belief and behavior.

Well, I am not very familiar with theology, but I have not seen a logical basis for it. I have not looked carefully, but as I said, all the reasons in the literature appear to be logical fallacies. It is a lot like trying to track down rumors of magic magnet perpetual motion machines. The anthropology and sociology of religion is interesting but theology looks like mush to me. Perhaps I have the wrong kind of mind.

In any case, many things which are logical are also incorrect. All scientific theories which were once believed but now discarded fall in that category.


In short: It is reductionism at its worst to draw a line between scientific and religious practice. One emphasizes logic and the other intuition, but neither is possible without the other.

Most scientists practice both logical and intuitive science, but they chuck the religious part.


 The interaction of our cortex with the so-called lower brain as we interpret the incredible universe of which we are a part would have it no other way.

Speak for yourself! It is not a problem with my cortex. Seriously, you seem to be asserting that everyone is religious but we just won't admit it. Do you really think half the people in Europe are lying? That's silly.

- Jed
--=====================_81387421==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 6 14:34:00 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j36LXhhk003450; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 14:33:47 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j36LXfHH003418; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 14:33:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 14:33:41 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050406173058.02ca8e70 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2005 17:33:23 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: OT: Question regarding condoms In-Reply-To: <009501c53aec$a520a4c0$0600a8c0 nixlaptop> References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050406095230.02c25130 pop.mindspring.com> <009501c53aec$a520a4c0$0600a8c0 nixlaptop> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_81558609==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58997 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_81558609==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Nick Palmer wrote: >The 95-97% success rate for condoms relates to the percentage of women >(3-5%), using only condoms, who will become pregnant if they use them for >one year. Now *that* makes sense. That is the kind of statistic one could measure with accuracy, because nearly all pregnancies are accounted for. Presumably those are healthy, normal women in the prime childbearing age group. What is the natural rate without any contraception? - Jed --=====================_81558609==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Nick Palmer wrote:

The 95-97% success rate for condoms relates to the percentage of women (3-5%),  using only condoms, who will become pregnant if they use them for one year.

Now *that* makes sense. That is the kind of statistic one could measure with accuracy, because nearly all pregnancies are accounted for. Presumably those are healthy, normal women in the prime childbearing age group. What is the natural rate without any contraception?

- Jed
 --=====================_81558609==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 6 14:35:17 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j36LYxhk004203; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 14:35:00 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j36LYsXQ004162; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 14:34:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 14:34:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <3rra4i$tdtqrp mxip17a.cluster1.charter.net> X-Ironport-AV: i="3.92,82,1112587200"; d="scan'208"; a="987687801:sNHT1460259758" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.12 (webedge20-101-197-20030912) From: To: CC: Subject: OT: "If I were Pope." Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 21:34:45 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58998 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > Jed wrote: >>orionworks charter.net wrote: >> I have no idea if what my mother was seeing really existed >> or not. Doesn't really matter. However, the fact that >> western influenced scientific rationale would simply >> proclaim that my mother was experiencing nothing more >> than a "hallucination" is, in my view, a cop out. > That is an odd statement. If you, your father and other > people could not see them then of course they were > hallucinations. What other hypothesis fits? I suspect you and my dad would have gotten along nicely! He was a Professor of Food Science at the University of Wisconsin. Earlier in his career he was employed as a production manager for an international dairy plant (FOREMOST Dairies) stationed near Kokura, Japan. We lived in Japan for about three years during the mid 50s. I like kelp. > The only other hypothesis I can imagine would be that > these things really did exist, your mother developed > some extraordinary new ability to see them because of > the disease, and there might be some sort of special > camera or other instrument which could detect them. > Sort of like the movie "Phenomenon." Also we have > to postulate that people and creatures can > mysteriously float in air. All of that strikes me as > exceedingly unlikely. I am sure that if I experienced > this myself, and I had any marbles left at all, I > would instantly dismiss that hypothesis, just as my > mother did in similar circumstances. Another hypothesis might be: As some of us approach death perhaps the brain chemistry begins to alter in uncharted ways causing their perceptual filtering systems to no longer function in the normal way. Perhaps this might in some cases cause extraneous external stimulus to filter back into the conscious awareness. This filtering system might have been put in place as an evolutionary process to help "filter out" extraneous environmental stimulus that if noticed could be detrimental (if not deadly) to the survival of the organism, particularly if they spent too much time focusing on the external stimulus. In other words: Forget about the strange looking floating creature hovering next to the cliff that seems to be defying the laws of gravity, the one you can't catch nor eat. Focus on that hungry looking Saber-tooth tiger crouched on top of the cliff. Yeah, THAT ONE! The one that seems to be considering you for lunch. > Of course the disease might also affect my judgement > and objectivity, like being drunk. In that case I > *would* believe in floating people, UFOs in the room, > or what have you. It did that to my mother, but only > momentarily. You think you would see these things? Can I have some of what you got? > If you are a good scientist, you spent a lifetime > training yourself *not* to believe your own > impressions, and not to take anything for granted. > You demand objective proof for everything. People > who do that are not likely to change in the last > months of life, or to relax their standards even > under extreme duress. I have seen many people die > and I have never seen an atheist undergo a > "deathbed conversion," or suddenly start believing > in things that he formerly would have dismissed. > I suppose it happens about as often as religious > people lose their faith in the last months. Regarding "conversion" stories, or the lack of them as you claim, I suspect others might care to differ with you. But more to the point, Jed, you sound to me like you are trying to make sure you won't end up behaving in some yet-to-be perceived foolish way when you finally get reeeeeealy OLD and fear you may be loosing your mental facilities. It's as if one is religiously repeating the mantra: ...If I continue to think the right thoughts. ...If I can just manage to hold onto the right mental concepts, maybe I just might be able to protect my mental facilities from succumbing to the onset of these ridiculous hallucinations during the last moments of my life. Maybe I'll be able to save face and not look ridiculous or tragic to my family or to myself. Perhaps it's best to simply cross the bridge when we get to it. We all eventually will. As for me, I just hope I'll have enough money to tip the boatman. > By the way, your response to these events was > exactly right. Based on what the nurses told me, > I would definitely recommend against telling the > patient "that is a hallucination," or getting > upset about it. At best you will only confuse > the patient or embarrass her. It may have been the right response but not for the reasons you site. I find the comments attributed to the nurses you speak of to be typical from those who have never experienced "hallucinations". They do not speak from experience. > I knew another patient who was completely aware > that she was seeing hallucinations. She enjoyed > them. She said they were the most interesting > thing she saw all day. > > - Jed Once it was clear to my mother that I couldn't see her "hallucinations", nor that her "hallucinations" bothered or upset me, we were able to spend good quality time occasionally observing and commenting on her experiences. She was an artist after all, and so am I. "You see flowers sprouting out of the ceiling? And that school of fish swimming past your bed, are they the salt or fresh water variety?" Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 6 14:46:48 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j36Lkdhk012187; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 14:46:39 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j36LkXrG012147; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 14:46:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 14:46:33 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=lXWrY+fXmcOPkQx6S63Zl31Uxy+3c/6gCoyGqhj/G/pld1GZzbbHhebwfJN6Fpvz3afrvHd5r7BFgiUB32ICl9HzLiozvFcGpDeoSqHRCUJd4WJ7seGKIyzo3ibPUu/gbYqbU3xRJg1NbhvEhdWxRsKhx3iKo/TIEcesET+lId8= ; Message-ID: <20050406214624.57028.qmail web41508.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 14:46:24 -0700 (PDT) From: Harvey Norris Subject: Magic Cube Thread/ Magic Square Applications To: vortex-l eskimo.com Cc: teslafy yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: 6667 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58999 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- Horace Heffner wrote: > At 7:56 PM 4/5/5, Harvey Norris wrote: > [snip] > >Find ANY magic cube; if you think it exists. > [snip] > > > Hopefully you have seen the article by Eric W > Weisstein, "Semiperfect Magic > Cube," from Mathworld, A Wolfram Resource, > > > > > Regards, > > Horace Heffner Thanx a whole lot for this info, I thought a post to vortex might help me out on this research, and it appears this posted URL shows one heck of a lot of diversions to go on, as I have another square related problem I will mention. I was not aware of the previous work in this category, so the info you provided is a gem to me... Perhaps Capital letters in a URL are necessary in some cases, as the quoted URL did not take, but I found it by going to the alphabetical section of articles under S at the web site, and was truly astounded at the number of articles just under S. For the benefit of others who might be interested in the subject I will repeat the URL mentioned at the site... Eric W. Weisstein. "Semiperfect Magic Cube." From MathWorld--A Wolfram Web Resource. http://mathworld.wolfram.com/SemiperfectMagicCube.html I also see that the problem I posed has already been solved in 1976, so I will check the cited article and see how it compares to what I deduced. Gardner, M. "Mathematical Games: A Breakthrough in Magic Squares, and the First Perfect Magic Cube." Sci. Amer. 234, 118-123, Jan. 1976. I had deduced that the method I used to find a solution should work with a cube of 8 numbers to a side, or a sequence of 8*8*8 = 512 no.s. I do not know if this should be the smallest (perfect) magic cube, since my understanding of group 3 squares, (divisible by 6) is incomplete, but again some other works cited in the URL should fill in this gap. The way I came to this conclusion is as follows. I took the same method of balancing the even squares by axial symmetry replacements of no.s from a uniform state: and applied it to a three dimensional model of 4*4*4. I saw that this method would not give a balanced solution according to the method I used, but if I went up to the next cube of 8*8*8, it should provide the solution. My interest in magic squares stemmed from the study of low frequency resonators, and how these might be applied to tesla coils. I am still working towards making a demonstration of a new type of tesla coil primary that should use 16 times more capacity then what the equations predict for. One aspect to this matter is that the primary is designed to hold an appreciable "internal" capacity: and when we add an external capacity to that kind of spiral, we end up with a resonant frequency higher then what the equations would tell us as an answer. If the internal capacity were to be ~ equal to the external capacity; the total "acting" capacity should appear as those two capacities in series, or a value 4 times lower then either individual capacity. Thus to get the desired resonant frequency one would have to use 4 times the amount of capacity then what the equations call for. By making yet another modification of applying a MARX method of capacitive voltage doubling, for a new type of tesla primary arc gap design; by charging two capacities in parallel, and then discharging them in series: the source could then see 16 times more capacity before discharge, then the actual C value predicted by formula to produce the desired resonant frequency. This became interesting to me analogy wise to even magic squares: because it takes 16 squares to solve or replicate the symmetry contained in the central 4 squares, that already hold this symmetry. In electrical resonance the wire length is said to hold a parameter for what resonant frequency would develope, and by considering what the propagation speed of the electrical impulse is, divided by the length of the wire, an estimation of what the resonant frequency should be can be developed. In the doing of this for typical tesla coil secondaries we actually find that because of mutual inductance between windings we arrive at an answer that shows that the propagation speed of the electrical impulse actually travels faster then the speed of light. Here I am working at the other end of the spectrum, to make special wiring path arrangements so that the impulse actually travels far lower then the speed of light, thus producing a resonant frequency lower then what the equations predict. One special inductor I studied employing 600 clockwise and counterclockwise spiral windings arranged for magnetic unity showed that the propagation speed of the electrical impulse must have slowed down to 13 times slower then the speed of light to obtain the answer given in the scopings of its resonant frequency. So here we come back to the magic squares: and what is their practical application? My theory is that if applied as a code to place winding routes on a multilayered coil; it gives the answer as to how to apply those winding routes to gain the highest possible internal capacity. And if we look at the larger odd magic squares as a blueprint for winding routes we can readily see a pattern of diagonal rather then lateral layering of winding routes. In this mathematical research I took a magic square of 25 no.s, or 5 to a side, and first looked at the amount of internal capacity that should be present if the winding routes resembled the uniform array of a zig zag lateral layering, and compared this to what internal capacity should be present if instead the diagonal layering present in the magic square version method were employed; and I found about a 6 fold increase. So these things get interesting since formerly the magic squares may have only presented a mathematical curiosity: but now a real world application for their use is imagined. This gets even more interesting when we apply this thought to the even (group 2, divisible by 4) magic squares. In that case the square can be arranged so that only half of the no.s need to relocate in going from a uniform to a magic state. If this were to be modeled as a large uniform coil construct, we could chop the coil in half exposing all the winding routes on both sides; and then reroute these paths to what would resemble a telephone switchboard assembly. Half of these junctions requiring a switch or change from the uniform pathways could be given two diodes in opposite polarities; with the planned result that one diode gives a uniform pathway for the electrical impulse, and the other diode pathway yeilds the combination giving a magic square. When the electricity goes in one polarity direction it follows a uniform lateral winding routing, but when the polarity is reversed it follows a magic square routing. Since it is speculated that the magic square route will reduce the speed of the electrical impulse, this provides for a possibility that if the coil construct were large enough, on the magic square polarity side of electrical propagation, if the frequency of the AC generator were high enough, it should seem possible to procur a condition where on that magic square polarity side the impulse does not have the neccessary time period to complete its circuit, hence in a form we are "trapping" electron movement in the coil without loading down the generator that causes this electrical movement. If the coil construct were further designed as a maximum energy transfer circuit, when the circuit is completed in the uniform winding route, it loads down the generator so that its output voltage is cut in half, but on polarity reversal the generator should see what looks to it like an open circuit, and thus its output voltage again goes up to what appears in open circuit; which would be twice its normal operating voltage found with the maximum energy transfer circuit attached to it. And if the theory matched reality at the start of every cycle that completes its electrical circuit in the uniform winding route, the starting voltage would be twice that normally encountered with the ordinary max energy transfer circuit attached to it. From here we might imagine that this coil construct could also be modeled as a (special air core) transformer primary, and we could also draw energy from a hypothetical secondary, where the energy draw from the secondary might not be matched as an increased load demand placed on the primary. One might argue that air core transformers are to begin with very innefficient, but this ignores special designs, where I have used spirals that act and demonstrate 100% coupling through air: where in that case the air core model seems to mimic what occurs in the ferromagnetic analogy. Going back to the magic cube thought, if one looks at the principle involved with odd magic squares, one of the construction principles is that every combination that goes through the center provides the correct numerical value; and the method for construction is that the diagonals going through the center interchange positions in a special way with the laterals that go through the center, and vice versa. It is possible to do this with a 2-D odd magic square. But when we take this same idea, and attempt to apply it for a three dimensional array we find that the 3-D model provides for 3 laterals bisecting the center, resembling the x,y,z axis' for a three dimensional coordinate system: but we have 4 diagonals in three dimensions that also bisect the center. 3 things cannot interchange with 4 things, so this is why the so called "perfect" magic cube having an odd no of side units is impossible to construct. It was then after realizing this where the idea kept me up almost all night, not being able to sleep, that I suddenly realized the the group two squares have no center, and so we might be able to apply those even group two construction laws in three dimensions, and that a magic cube should be possible to construct after all, as formerly I thought this problem to be impossible. However it would seem that this problem has already been solved in the above cited Scientific American article, so I guess I havent dreamed up anything new. I wont go into the dream that made me start thinking about magic cubes, but the dream seems to indicate a possible APPLICATION for a magic cube. It seems very hazy at this point in time but it seems to have something to do with constructing a 3 dimensional wiring route, and how it will leave spaces between windings. Perhaps others can supply the answer here, but I cannot at this time. Lastly but not not least is the subject of "imperfect" magic squares. This simply means that all the laterals add to the correct value, but the diagonals do not. For making comparisons of winding routes making internal capacity, it is irrevalent whether the diagonals are balanced, since we are using square conductors. But this leads up to what is called the chess knight problem. It is possible to move a chess knight 64 times landing on 64 new squares, so that every square on the chess board has been touched; and if we assign these moves numbers in the sequence, we find that the numbers make an imperfect magic square of 64 units. Now since the even group 2 squares have an incredible amount of possible constructions, it is possible to construct the square is such a way that we can make any no. occupy any square, and still solve the square to be balanced. But in the doing of this to try and solve the chess knight problem; making a new movement must not disturb the former positions made by the chess knight. My former (incorrect?) thinking was that if we took the perfect 64 unit magic square and started making transpositions, this might reveal HOW the chess knight problem could be solved. There is more then one method for making these transpositions. For example in one method we can take an entire column of numbers and interchange that column with another column, and the square will still stay balanced, (without the additonal requirement for diagonal balancing). We could first place the no one in the correct position by making these transpositions, that can work either horizontally or vertically, and then we could find where no 2 is on the perfect magic square chart, and again transpose either some columns or rows so that now 2 is in the correct position for the chess knight sequence. We could keep trying this so that the sequence of no.s resembles the pattern of how a chess knight moves. It would seem logical however that sooner or later a transposition will disturb the original chess knight pattern that we are attempting to duplicate. Undoubtably however someone has already solved the METHOD for predicting what move the chess knight must take sequentially for it to touch every square, without being trapped by its former movements, so that the next move cannot be made without landing on a former occupied square. The cited URL containing such a vast amount of mathematical knowledge would probably provide such a solution, so perhaps it is better not to waste the time on such a puzzle, but nevertheless the problem seems interesting to me. Once again thanx for citing this URL, it should keep me busy well past the time of my retirement. Sincerely HDN Tesla Research Group; Pioneering the Applications of Interphasal Resonances http://groups.yahoo.com/group/teslafy/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 6 17:26:53 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j370Qhhk019725; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 17:26:47 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j370QcfL019650; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 17:26:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 17:26:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <425348A3.1080700 ix.netcom.com> References: <20050406010601.23950.qmail web30210.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <425348A3.1080700 ix.netcom.com> Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 19:27:14 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: OT: "If I were Pope." Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59000 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Kyle Mcallister wrote: > >>Vortexians, >> >>OK, this is getting a little "crazy-go-nuts." >> >>1. Margaret Sanger was responsible for some good, yes. and Ed Storms responded >The problem is that some people would be very willing to leave you >and people with your belief system alone. However, there seems to >be an unwillingness of certain religious belief systems to leave the >rest of us alone. Have you considered that G-d might want to affect the course of history, Ed? Then there is the matter of the Islamists, who want to rule the world. If you think that you'd have problems with a Christian theocracy, you'll really hate them, they make us look like liberals. >> >>2. I am not pro-abortion for a few reasons. >>A: It does nothing to encourage people to stop the >>numerous "meet and f**k" flings. > >Lack of abortion does not stop f**kings, which all the statistics >and personal experience shows. But the ability to kill people who are inconvenient does cheapen life > >>B: I wouldn't know if I was destroying someone who >>might be something very important one day. > >Or someone who was a mass murder. Of course, if God wanted a person >available to do something considered important, why would it matter >if that body were destroyed? Many more bodies would be available. >Also, if God is all powerful and all knowing, why would a body that >might be aborted be chosen? Have you ever heard of free will, Ed? Well you have the right to exercise it. We believe that free will, combined with our sinful nature is the reason that the world is in such a mess today. Some of us are opposed to murder, not to be confused with justified killing. > >>C: I do not have to be pro-abortion just because you >>say so. So many people have tried to force me to be >>pro-abortion that I am now totally against it mainly >>in defiance of those who would control my thinking. > >Why do you think you are being forced to be proabortion and how is >this done? Of course, many people are being forced to be >"antiabortion" just because the doctors are being driven out of >business. What doctors, the abortionists? The cry that goes up from the pro abortionists every time we attempt to restrict the practice makes me think that there is more going on here than the practice of their bloody business, IMHO, their agenda is to kill humans. >> >>3. A religious person really really must have made you >>mad once, Jed? It is fine by me if you are >> > >I know of no proposed legislation that is antireligious. However, I >know that the religious right is trying to make gay marriage illegal. We are attempting to preserve the traditional definition of the word. Have you ever heard of Sodom and Gamorrah?, do you recall what happened to those two cities? > >You know, if we are supposed to be so >>pro-women-liberation in other countries, so >>pro-freedom, so pro-lets-all-get-along-as-equals, so >>pro- then why the HELL is it >>ok and dandy to hate religion? > >I did not get the impression that Jed hates religion, nor do I. >However, I do hate the attitude of certain religions in their belief >that their God is better than the other God. I'm savy enough to realize that the two of you are just anti religious, Ed. However, I'm sure you can appreciate that there is, however only room for one G-d and king in the universe. > >If you think I am >>overreacting, then re-read your posts. They were >>pretty damned irritating to me at least, and I am sure >>others. Not for your opinion, that is fine. Do what >>you want. But do not ever try to force it on anyone >>else. By legislation or otherwise. This statement (the >>last part anyways) is not directly aimed at anyone. > >I would also like religious people not to force their beliefs using >legislation, which is the common approach. The way we see it, there is a religion called Secular Humanism, which is being promoted by the Liberals. For all their protestations of separation of religion and government, the followers of this religion are anxious to use the levers of power which the government provides to promote it. Did you notice Parksie's reaction to the challenge to his orthodoxy? Intelligent Design just points out the absurdity of spontaneous biogenesis, but Parksie couldn't stand even that small incursion on his pet paradigm. A major tenet of Secular Humanism is an attempt to promote sexuality immorality and make murder socially acceptable, and we are obligated to stop it. The Secular Humanists will come out in mass to attempt to stop the justified killing of a convicted murderer, but seem to feel that the murder of an inconvenient infant is just fine. They give lip service to free speech, but when they are authority, which they are in the educational establishment, are quite intolerant of dissenting speech. They claim to support the rights of women, but blindly support the most anti woman religion on Earth, Islam. Their agenda is as simple as ABC, anything but Christianity. >> >>4. Contraception? Sure, why not. I have no problem >>with this. But please, if anyone out there wants to >>force the use of them on people who do NOT want to use >>them, kindly take a hike. This statement is not >>directly aimed at anyone. > >As far I know, no one is forced to use contraception. However, for >awhile in this country and even now in some other countries, condoms >were not easily available because the Catholic Church was opposed. The contraception issue makes me glad that I'm not a Catholic. >> >>5. Are you guys actually reading this? I don't get >>many replies........ > >Does this quantify? >> >>6. You know, the Pope just died. He meant alot to many >>people. (I am not catholic, by the way, but I damn >>sure respect them and am not going to say they are 400 >>years behind!) If this form of lack of respect for the >>dearly departed is implicit in your atheistic-utopia >>vision, then count me completely out. > >I think you miss the difference between respect and agreement with >opinion and policy. I respect the pope, but I think, for what its >worth, his policy is harmful to humanity. I respect you but I do >not share your beliefs. >> >>7. If this continued anti-religious bias is to be >>embraced and accepted, then do not EVER ask me to show >>compassion towards some special interest group of to >>feel sorry for Muslims who might have been >>discriminated against in the days to follow September >>11th. Why should one group be discriminated against >>and not another? > >Why indeed? I agree, we should be equal opportunity discriminators. :-) You finally said something that I agree with! >> >>8. DISCLAIMER!!! This is aimed at no one in >>particular! (so don't take it as being aimed at you, >>the cost of some contraceptives or an abortion is much >>more than the cost of the gunpowder it took you to >>blow yourself to hell. > >I bit of over reaction. don't you think? Someone is clearly feeling quite frustrated! >> >>There are more, but for the moment I am too pissed off >>to handle them clearly. I am sorry if the tone is >> > >We all suffer from our past experiences and are sensitive to >criticism. That is why no laws should be passed for behavior that >does not harm another person. However, religion seems to think that >an absolute behavior exists, which is determined by God. Hence, >they want to force everyone to have that behavior. That is the >problem, not the reverse, which causes you heart burn. Religion sets out a morality which outlines the standards of behavior. At this time we all have free will, and compliance is optional. >> >>Jed, you believe science and religion cannot coexist. >>This isn't a belief, you are stating something as > >I think Jed was making the general observation that logic based on >science has a hard time with faith based on religion. If you can, >as many people do, occupy both worlds without conflict, you are very >much like most people. Including Isaac Newton and many others who laid the foundations of scientific logic that you admire so much. > >> >>Sorry if this offended anyone. But maybe it is time >>those people who quietly keep getting offended >>themselves say something. > >No offense taken. and I hope you will excuse my religious zealotry too. > >Regards, >Ed >> >>Regards, >>--Kyle >> Thomas From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 6 18:44:17 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j371i6hk017131; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 18:44:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j371i2KN017071; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 18:44:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 18:44:02 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: "Vortex" Subject: Experimental Challenge!!!!! Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 21:45:47 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: <60v-DD.A.lKE.gBJVCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59001 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A Hi All. Needless to say, an awful lot of bandwidth has been devoted to discussion concerning Bog and all his heavenly hosts. It's been interesting, in much the same way as rubbernecking a major car wreck. What strikes me most about the discussion is the utter lack of constructive dialogue concerning the experiential aspect of the divine. Some list members ( who shall for the moment remain nameless ) write as if they have daily telephone discussions with Bog; receiving the days talking points and political instruction to boot. That these instructions might be emanating from their AM radios rather than the creator of the universe seems to escape them. And so it goes, as one famous secular humanist liked to say... My challenge is simple. Although I've had little interest or use in organized religion, I've had more than my share of direct religious experience. There is nothing special about this. Any one of you ( Jed included ) can have these experiences, they're part of our heritage as homo sapiens. What I have to offer the group is a simple and well tested technique for experimenting with a part of this aspect of our existence. No regressive laws enacted by activist legislators need be broken to experiment with this technique, all that will be required to do the experiment is a digital watch with an alarm function. Curious? Here's what I want in return. For all the folks who keep banging on about Bog; you need to post examples of your direct experience of the divine. No quoting from 2000 year old books, no special codes or predictions, because let's face it, that's all just crap designed by other humans to keep you separated from the direct experience. I'm talking about the real thing here, direct personal experience. I'm a scientist and an experimentalist; and I assert it is not only possible to research this in an intelligent way but that it's something accessible to everyone, regardless of what crazy beliefs have been programmed into you to by slave masters who run the worlds organized religions. I'll give everyone a day or two to respond to the list, and if ANYONE can post something which has some remote whiff of truth to it, I'll post the experiment and you can all do it for yourselves and see what I'm talking about. Everyone talks about Bog, but how many of you people dare to actually experiment with it? K. "when you go into your church, you talk about god. when we go into our teepee we talk TO god." - Chief Seattle - From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 6 20:02:36 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3732Rhk000758; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 20:02:27 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3732C51000619; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 20:02:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 20:02:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4254A2C1.9000404 pobox.com> Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2005 23:02:25 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.5) Gecko/20050105 Debian/1.7.5-1 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex Subject: [OT] Constitutional Reform Act Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <2-Eu7.A.XJ.zKKVCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59002 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I've had this act, which may become law in a few months, pointed out to me as a catastrophe in the making. I looked at the act, I read some of the commentary on it, and I can't decide -- is it a disaster, is it the camel getting his nose under the tent, or is it just irrelevant? Here's the gist of the act: > `Notwithstanding any other provision of this chapter, the Supreme > Court shall not have jurisdiction to review, by appeal, writ of > certiorari, or otherwise, any matter to the extent that relief is > sought against an element of Federal, State, or local government, or > against an officer of Federal, State, or local government (whether or > not acting in official personal capacity), by reason of that element's > or officer's acknowledgement of God as the sovereign source of law, > liberty, or government.'. The act is very short; the whole thing can be found at http://www.yuricareport.com/Dominionism/HR3799ConstitutionRestorationAct.html as well as lots of other places, and some (positive) commentary may be found at http://www.waff.com/Global/story.asp?S=1644862 My impression is that this act seems to have been thrown together as a result of that judge and his Ten Commandments carved in stone (paid for with his own money) which he had to remove from government property, as well as the ongoing Gay Marriage battle. But I'm guessing. (Maybe it's really part of the end run to get G.Bush a third term in the White House...) Any opinions or comments on this, pro/con, from either side, will be read with great interest. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 6 20:13:34 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j373DMGG005294; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 20:13:23 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j373DKqc005268; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 20:13:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 20:13:20 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000c01c53b1f$b9335060$0100007f xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: experimental challenge Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 22:12:30 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0008_01C53AF5.B9CBB1E0"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-99.5 required=4.0 tests=HTML_20_30,HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59003 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C53AF5.B9CBB1E0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0009_01C53AF5.B9CBB1E0" ------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C53AF5.B9CBB1E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankKeith, No need to prove God, you may foolishly attempt to prove there is no = God. God is a spirit and must be worshiped in the spirit by faith. The first commandment of God is to love Him with all your heart, soul, = might and mind, and love your neighbor as yourself. If you desire to test God, I advise against it. If you want a fair and enlightening challenge it is.. Ask God in prayer that you want to know Him and love Him more each day = of your life. If you are sincere in your request, you will have all the = challenge you will ever need. As stated before, each must find his own way. There are some admonitions = to help such as .. everyone is responsible for their own actions. When attempting to prove there is no God... consider how good works are = a product of faith and ask yourself how many hospitals, schools, = Universities, charatible programs and all the good works done daily = worldwide by people that have the laws of God written on their hearts... Where are the atheists and where are their good works? You are the one = that needs the challenge presented to yourself. The atheists have brought our nation WHAT? State ONE good works by = atheists. Your challenge is thrown back into your face. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C53AF5.B9CBB1E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Keith,
 
No need to prove God, you may foolishly attempt to prove there is = no=20 God.
 
God is a spirit and must be worshiped in the spirit by faith.
 
The first commandment of God is to love Him with all your heart, = soul,=20 might and mind, and love your neighbor as yourself.
 
If you desire to test God, I advise against it.
 
If you want a fair and enlightening challenge it is..
 
Ask God in prayer that you want to know Him and love Him more each = day of=20 your life. If you are sincere in your request, you will have all the = challenge=20 you will ever need.
 
As stated before, each must find his own way. There are some = admonitions to=20 help such as .. everyone is responsible for their own actions.
 
When attempting to prove there is no God... consider how good works = are a=20 product of faith and ask yourself how many hospitals, schools,=20 Universities, charatible programs and all the good works done daily = worldwide by people that have the laws of God written on their = hearts...
 
Where are the atheists and where are their good works? You are the = one that=20 needs the challenge presented to yourself.
The atheists have brought our nation WHAT? State ONE good works by=20 atheists. Your challenge is thrown back into your face.
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C53AF5.B9CBB1E0-- ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C53AF5.B9CBB1E0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000701c53b1f$a296e470$0100007f xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C53AF5.B9CBB1E0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 6 20:43:52 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j373hcGG015403; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 20:43:39 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j373hbG9015382; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 20:43:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 20:43:37 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: experimental challenge Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 23:45:31 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <000c01c53b1f$b9335060$0100007f xptower> X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59004 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi RC, You didn't understand my post at all, did you? Please re-read it. I am suggesting to you that, contrary to your organized religious teachings, it is possible to have a direct personal experience of the divine. How you get from this statement to "Keith is trying to disprove god" is a great mystery to me. You seem to me to be the atheist RC. You suggest that it is impossible to have the direct experience. I say you can. For the moment, I'll check you as undecided. K. "when you go into your church, you talk about god. when we go into our teepee we talk TO god." - Chief Seattle - -----Original Message----- From: RC Macaulay [mailto:walhalla cvtv.net] Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2005 11:13 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: experimental challenge Keith, No need to prove God, you may foolishly attempt to prove there is no God. God is a spirit and must be worshiped in the spirit by faith. The first commandment of God is to love Him with all your heart, soul, might and mind, and love your neighbor as yourself. If you desire to test God, I advise against it. If you want a fair and enlightening challenge it is.. Ask God in prayer that you want to know Him and love Him more each day of your life. If you are sincere in your request, you will have all the challenge you will ever need. As stated before, each must find his own way. There are some admonitions to help such as .. everyone is responsible for their own actions. When attempting to prove there is no God... consider how good works are a product of faith and ask yourself how many hospitals, schools, Universities, charatible programs and all the good works done daily worldwide by people that have the laws of God written on their hearts... Where are the atheists and where are their good works? You are the one that needs the challenge presented to yourself. The atheists have brought our nation WHAT? State ONE good works by atheists. Your challenge is thrown back into your face. Richard From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 6 20:43:57 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j373hkGG015471; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 20:43:47 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j373hfKm015430; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 20:43:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 20:43:41 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000c01c53b23$f78fae90$83027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: OT Constitutional Reform Act Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 22:43:30 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0008_01C53AFA.0E300430"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-99.2 required=4.0 tests=HTML_30_40,HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: <4Y8ea.A.6wD.rxKVCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59005 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C53AFA.0E300430 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0009_01C53AFA.0E300430" ------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C53AFA.0E300430 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankStephen, It has been the experience here in Texas that when the legislature is in = session, no man's life nor property is safe. Over the past 30 years there has been an increase in " changes" to the = Texas constitution. Every time there is a change it seems that later the = " hook" in the bait finally emerges. The US Constitution must be protected using the amendment system = requiring the individual states to ratify the amendment. Any other method is suspect and to be guarded against. The socalled " Patriot Act" is an example of congress panicked into = running amok.=20 The politician in Washingfton now resembles a magician where.. while = holding the sparkler waving in one hand to distract.. the other hand is = working for the lobbyist. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C53AFA.0E300430 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Stephen,
 
It has been the experience here in Texas that when the legislature = is in=20 session, no man's life nor property is safe.
Over the past 30 years there has been an increase in " changes" to = the=20 Texas constitution. Every time there is a change it seems that later the = " hook"=20 in the bait finally emerges.
 
The US Constitution must be protected using the amendment system = requiring=20 the individual states to ratify the amendment.
 
Any other method is suspect and to be guarded against.
 
The socalled " Patriot Act" is an example of congress panicked into = running=20 amok.
 
The politician in Washingfton now resembles a magician where.. = while=20 holding the sparkler waving in one hand to distract.. the other hand is = working=20 for the lobbyist.
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C53AFA.0E300430-- ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C53AFA.0E300430 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000701c53b23$f6fff1b0$83027841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C53AFA.0E300430-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 6 23:14:55 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j376EoGG010417; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 23:14:50 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j376EdAg010356; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 23:14:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 23:14:39 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) In-Reply-To: <200504070027.j370RJhV020511 ultra5.eskimo.com> References: <200504070027.j370RJhV020511 ultra5.eskimo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <3dc34c85e1bb0922c604fd8e1cf71c5f byu.edu> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: John Robertson Subject: Re: vortex-digest Digest V2005 #168 Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 00:14:29 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59006 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: There might be more truth to the following statement than Jed realizes: " Speak for yourself! It is not a problem with my cortex. Seriously, you seem to be asserting that everyone is religious but we just won't admit it. Do you really think half the people in Europe are lying? That's silly." I am not asserting that everyone in the world is religious in the sense that they say their Christian prayers everyday; you have the curious habit of twisting the premises of your interlocutors. Stop it! I am saying that Religion (not Christian religion, Jed!) is a part of the human condition no matter how much it bugs you. Let's take an example. You equate religion with superstition, right?; so for the moment we'll do religion the disservice of using superstition as its substitute. It might be claimed that half the people in Europe are not superstitious, but I doubt it. I suspect a good lot of them would be lying were they to claim themselves free from all vestiges of superstition. I challenge you to give me any evidence that superstition will ever disappear from the face of the earth, in the same way, for example, that the Samurai tradition did, or the way Christianity has from a good part of Europe. Please, Jed, don't confuse type with token. Just because specific phonemes of the Indo-European sound system changed, doesn't mean the daughter languages don't have phonemic systems. Tokens change. Types don't. Manifestations of superstition change; the fact of superstition, whatever a given manifestation might be, does not. You might as well wish away human logic as to wish away human superstition. But to be fair, let's look at superstition a bit more broadly, since it is a proper subset of something far more important. Please show me a culture in the world that does not instill normative behavior. You yourself admit that we are products of the norms of our culture, just as everyone in the world is subject to their particular cultural norms. To your horror (just kidding) you and I may share some of the normative, American "DNA," and there's not a whole lot we can do about it. The fact is that our very survival depends on normative behavior. Natural law is normative (we don't have much choice here; gravity will be obeyed), cultural law is normative (governmental law being a kind of cultural institution), and so are moral laws (here we do have choice). I roughly define a moral law as a belief that is shot through with the notion SHOULD (the linguistic notion of modals): I should not engage in pedophilia; I should help the homeless; I ought to do my homework. Immoral/moral behavior is inevitably and without exception linked to the notion of what one believes one should or ought to do. Of course, like beauty, a certain portion of the details of such moral behavior is particular to a given person or a given culture. (A surprising portion is universal, however; more on that below.) Moral behavior in its broadest sense can be individual (I personally should go to the homeless shelter every Sunday); local (in this family, at this table you may not eat with your fingers); institutionalized (our club would do well to raise money for the tsunami victims). But the point to be made is this: This view of morality IS universal. No nonpathological person escapes it. Jed doesn't dodge it any more than his great grandmother or anyone he knows dodges it. Now, Jed sees polarization between science and religion as inevitable, and he hopes that religion loses, and gradually fades the way Samurai culture did. I find this attitude silly. My opinion, but just plain silly. Silly because it sounds like a Protestant hoping the Catholics will go away. What's the difference between Jed wishing for religion to go away in favor of "science" (whatever that is), and a Baptist wishing that Mormonism would vanish from off the face of the earth? I'll answer that: no difference; none! Zilch! Similar emotions, the same sense of self-righteousness. The same conviction of righteous motives. A perfect manifestation of modal thinking: Religion should die, and the world would be better. Silly because he has never defined what he means by "religion," except that it is superstition, blah, blah, blah. If he means Christianity in Europe is fading, like Samurai culture faded, that is an example of a token that changed. All tokens are inexorably subject to change, and his wish will come true. On the other hand, if he means Religion as a type; as a kind of normative, morally governed behavior (however particular/universal such morals may be) -- those principles that give people a modal sense of what they SHOULD do, then his polarizing wish is just plain silly. Modal, hypothetical driven behavior is just as important to our survival as logic is. (Incidentally, as I said before, modal, hypothetical behavior is the starting point of the scientific method.) Silly because he simplistically and naively equates token-religion (or is it type-Religion?) with superstition. Is it silly to think of ABC (abstinence before marriage, be faithful after marriage, if not use a condom) is something that Ugandans should do? The majority of other African nations have the same, horrific crisis, and the immoral belief that reliance on condoms is enough just doesn't cut it. There are some moral tenets that are not silly (some non-universal tenets ARE silly if not insane, as Jed is wont to point out. What he fails to point out are the transcendent tenets). It is not silly to be honest. It is not silly not to covet. Certain modal laws of human behavior are just as real and significant as the hide-bound laws that govern the material world. Fathers should not have sex with their daughters. Men should not rape women. People should not steal my or your identity. Such transcendency is not hard to think of. I hear someone say that one does not have to be religious to believe that impregnating one's children is moral delinquency. If they mean they do not have to believe in the Christian God to stand on such moral grounds, they are absolutely right. Christianity or any other religion is not superior for all that. If they mean that there is not some transcendent law to which we are all beholden, they are dead wrong. Such transcendent laws are the basic tenets of true religion, and we cannot escape them any more than we can escape the effects of the law of gravity. In that regard, the laws of nature (the subject of the study of scientists) and the laws of the moral universe (the study of theologians) are the same: They are transcendent and they govern us all -- one materially and the other modally. To slightly misquote C.S. Peirce: Such laws are not in us; we are in such laws. To such transcendency I willingly bow down and confess my insignificance. JSR From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 7 04:44:49 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j37BijRX009931; Thu, 7 Apr 2005 04:44:45 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j37BiUwD009822; Thu, 7 Apr 2005 04:44:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 04:44:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: Message-ID: <059b01c53b67$1ea27240$8745ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <4254A2C1.9000404 pobox.com> Subject: Re: [OT] Constitutional Reform Act Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 07:44:07 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59007 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: A setup for disaster: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" To: "Vortex" Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2005 11:02 PM Subject: [OT] Constitutional Reform Act > I've had this act, which may become law in a few months, pointed out to > me as a catastrophe in the making. I looked at the act, I read some of > the commentary on it, and I can't decide -- is it a disaster, is it the > camel getting his nose under the tent, or is it just irrelevant? Here's > the gist of the act: > > > `Notwithstanding any other provision of this chapter, the Supreme > > Court shall not have jurisdiction to review, by appeal, writ of > > certiorari, or otherwise, any matter to the extent that relief is > > sought against an element of Federal, State, or local government, or > > against an officer of Federal, State, or local government (whether or > > not acting in official personal capacity), by reason of that element's > > or officer's acknowledgement of God as the sovereign source of law, > > liberty, or government.'. > This phrase, "acknowledgement of God as the sovereign source of law, liberty, or government." is a setup for a theocratic state and a recipe for disaster. It opens the door to citation of a particular religion, a particular translation, a particular text, a particular interpretation of the text as overriding the constitution of the US or the power of the courts to moderate acts of government officials. The word "sovereign" carries with it authority over all other things. Any firebrand who claims that God speaks to him can claim authority. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 7 06:38:30 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j37DcKRX026723; Thu, 7 Apr 2005 06:38:20 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j37DcFa7026677; Thu, 7 Apr 2005 06:38:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 06:38:15 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050407093250.02c43970 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2005 09:37:58 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Windmills in the sky after all! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_501953==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59008 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --=====================_501953==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed A couple of months ago, Baronvolsung suggested we might have wind turbines high in the sky, up in the jet stream. I pooh-poohed the idea, but it turns out I wasn't thinking hard enough. It could not be done with balloons, as he suggested, but kites are another matter. See: http://www.wired.com/news/planet/0,2782,67121,00.html http://www.skywindpower.com/ww/index.htm These things may be able to produce electricity at 2 cents/kWh. If so, this could be a *tremendously* important technology. It would be much more potent than ground level wind turbines, because high altitude wind more widely available and it practically never stops. As a Lawrence Livermore researcher put it: "High-altitude wind power represents the most concentrated flux of renewable energy found on Earth." - Jed --=====================_501953==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" A couple of months ago, Baronvolsung suggested we might have wind turbines high in the sky, up in the jet stream. I pooh-poohed the idea, but it turns out I wasn't thinking hard enough. It could not be done with balloons, as he suggested, but kites are another matter. See:

http://www.wired.com/news/planet/0,2782,67121,00.html

 http://www.skywindpower.com/ww/index.htm

These things may be able to produce electricity at 2 cents/kWh. If so, this could be a *tremendously* important technology. It would be much more potent than ground level wind turbines, because high altitude wind more widely available and it practically never stops. As a Lawrence Livermore researcher put it: "High-altitude wind power represents the most concentrated flux of renewable energy found on Earth."

- Jed
 --=====================_501953==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 7 07:05:17 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j37E56RX006905; Thu, 7 Apr 2005 07:05:10 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j37E54lo006882; Thu, 7 Apr 2005 07:05:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 07:05:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050407094719.02cbd170 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2005 10:04:53 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: experimental challenge In-Reply-To: <000c01c53b1f$b9335060$0100007f xptower> References: <000c01c53b1f$b9335060$0100007f xptower> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_2114593==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59009 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_2114593==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed RC Macaulay wrote: >Where are the atheists and where are their good works? You are the one >that needs the challenge presented to yourself. >The atheists have brought our nation WHAT? That is TOO easy. Altogether too easy and irresistible. As I pointed out before, ~70% of scientists are atheists. That has long been the case. It was true in the 19th century, and especially in Europe. The very top, creme de la creme of science today and for the past century has been roughly 90% atheist. In other words, just about every important scientific and technological improvement made during the last 200 years was brought to you mainly by atheists, such as Darwin and Edison. The deists also contributed, naturally. When the argument degenerates to this level, it is time to call a halt. Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts, as Moynihan put it. - Jed --=====================_2114593==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" RC Macaulay wrote:

Where are the atheists and where are their good works? You are the one that needs the challenge presented to yourself.
The atheists have brought our nation WHAT?

That is TOO easy. Altogether too easy and irresistible. As I pointed out before, ~70% of scientists are atheists. That has long been the case. It was true in the 19th century, and especially in Europe. The very top, creme de la creme of science today and for the past century has been roughly 90% atheist. In other words, just about every important scientific and technological improvement made during the last 200 years was brought to you mainly by atheists, such as Darwin and Edison. The deists also contributed, naturally.

When the argument degenerates to this level, it is time to call a halt. Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts, as Moynihan put it.

- Jed
--=====================_2114593==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 7 07:44:38 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j37EiURX030663; Thu, 7 Apr 2005 07:44:30 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j37EiP2e030589; Thu, 7 Apr 2005 07:44:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 07:44:25 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=6NcfFuC/IZOZpCrTRtRTpw4Y1ZrsuIPJYYiRpc80b2KzLFnisdLDazVuTM3TijW3wAyFBXQuZWRv01g8Ewr6VJrtpCRQgYdLaDv6mw8oO6U1Qq8+C/+aLb0owbSMy+JEzhMi+JagX2k8/K9S/TNH763Ci5i2IF/Wmjr6Q41Wgd0= ; Message-ID: <20050407144415.48713.qmail web51709.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 07:44:14 -0700 (PDT) From: Terry Blanton Subject: RE: experimental challenge To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: 6667 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-766461967-1112885054=:47487" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59010 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-766461967-1112885054=:47487 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Absolutely true! Admittedly, some of my first experiences were "inside the teepee" so to speak with a combination of organic mescaline and codeine. I could not name it until relatively recently when I began to study gnosticism. You are lucky that the HRCC does not wield the military power they once did because what you speak is heretical! I'm intrigued . . . what's your experiment? Keith Nagel wrote: I am suggesting to you that, contrary to your organized religious teachings, it is possible to have a direct personal experience of the divine. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --0-766461967-1112885054=:47487 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Absolutely true!  Admittedly, some of my first experiences were "inside the teepee" so to speak with a combination of organic mescaline and codeine.  I could not name it until relatively recently when I began to study gnosticism. 
 
You are lucky that the HRCC does not wield the military power they once did because what you speak is heretical!
 
I'm intrigued . . . what's your experiment?

Keith Nagel <knagel gis.net> wrote:
I am suggesting to you that, contrary to your organized religious teachings,
it is possible to have a direct personal experience of the divine.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com --0-766461967-1112885054=:47487-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 7 08:40:41 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j37FeVRX028440; Thu, 7 Apr 2005 08:40:32 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j37FeSDc028409; Thu, 7 Apr 2005 08:40:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 08:40:28 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050407101412.02bba380 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2005 10:34:58 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: vortex-digest Digest V2005 #168 In-Reply-To: <3dc34c85e1bb0922c604fd8e1cf71c5f byu.edu> References: <200504070027.j370RJhV020511 ultra5.eskimo.com> <3dc34c85e1bb0922c604fd8e1cf71c5f byu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_7835000==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59011 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_7835000==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I will drop the silly, tit-for-tat discussion in which people assert that atheists have contributed nothing to society, but John Robertson has made some interesting, thoughtful comments that deserve a response. He wrote: >You equate religion with superstition, right? . . . There may be a difference but I cannot tell them apart. I have only studied the ones in Japan and China, where no one would think to make a distinction. Their theology has no objection to superstition, unlike some Christian theologies. >; so for the moment we'll do religion the disservice of using superstition >as its substitute. It might be claimed that half the people in Europe are >not superstitious, but I doubt it. Compared to medieval times Europeans are almost free of superstition. See for example, the book "A World Lit Only by Fire." > I suspect a good lot of them would be lying were they to claim > themselves free from all vestiges of superstition. I challenge you to > give me any evidence that superstition will ever disappear from the face > of the earth, in the same way, for example, that the Samurai tradition > did . . . Of course superstition will never disappear completely, and neither will religion. For that matter there are important vestiges of the samurai tradition in Japan today, in the education system for example. But superstition in Japan has been reduced tremendously. I almost regret it! I have some books describing Edo period and prewar (pre-WWII) superstitions and folk beliefs. There were hundreds of fascinating superstitions and rituals that people today have never heard of. Shamanism is almost extinct. I am glad I got a chance to see it. These folk police have not been replaced with other, similar faith-based systems. Most prewar rural Japanese people had to depend upon faith healing and folk medicine because they could not afford doctors, whereas today most rural Japanese people say they fully depend upon and trust medical science. (That is what they tell social science researchers in formal studies, and what they tell me, in person.) >You might as well wish away human logic as to wish away human superstition. The trends of history seem to be against it. I hope that I myself am free of superstition -- knock on wood. Seriously, you are awfully bold declaring that everyone must be superstitious and everyone must believe in religion, and all those Europeans and scientists who say otherwise are kidding themselves. You should credit them with some self-knowledge. If you are certain that you yourself believe in religion, why do you think other people cannot be equally certain they do not believe? Perhaps you are fooling yourself. >But to be fair, let's look at superstition a bit more broadly, since it is >a proper subset of something far more important. Please show me a culture >in the world that does not instill normative behavior. . . That is quite a stretch! If you are going to subsume all of morality and normative behavior under the rubric of religion then, yes, of course it will never disappear. I think it would much much more sense to go the other direction and say that 90% of religion is actually made up of rational, logic-based philosophy that developed outside of religion (belief in the supernatural) and has nothing to do with it. The only part of religion as a belief system that I object is the supernatural part. That is, the assertion that the universe is not governed strictly by impersonal laws, or that it has some built-in moral purpose. My only objection is that it isn't true, as far as I can tell. If the experimental evidence indicated there is a moral purpose, I would be pleased to believe it. Throughout the ages people have offered other reasons to believe such as the notion that religion is beneficial to society. I think you came close to that. This is an elementary logical fallacy: appeal to the consequences of a belief. Even if it could be demonstrated conclusively that society would fall apart overnight in the absence of religion, that is still not a logical reason to believe it. I have other practical objections to religion as it is practiced (not to the idea), such as the fact that people sometimes resort to faith healing instead of seeking effective medical treatment, and some victims of the tsunami blame themselves for the disaster, and ask why God did this to them. The answer is no one did it to them and they are not to blame for anything. Their religion makes them feel much worse than they need to feel. It adds an extra, useless burden of guilt. Of course sometimes it helps people get through this crises. But, as I said, that is no reason to believe it because -- you know the drill! -- that is an appeal to the consequences of a belief. People are often comforted by false information. When the doctor misdiagnoses a serious illness and tells you not to worry you will soon recover, you will feel a sense of relief and comfort, but that does not make it true. >I roughly define a moral law as a belief that is shot through with the >notion SHOULD (the linguistic notion of modals): I should not engage in >pedophilia; I should help the homeless; I ought to do my homework. All of these moral laws can be justified without religion. Many systems of ethics and philosophy have been developed that have no reference to religion or the supernatural, starting with Confucianism. Actually, today almost all of these moral laws can be explained as the outcome of evolution, and I am confident that eventually they all will be. They are the product of naturally occurring instinctive behaviors. So is the urge to believe in God, obviously, but we do not always act according to our instincts, because we are domesticated species. We can quench some instincts. For example, we can train ourselves not to act on the homicidal instincts that lead to war and murder. We can never completely free ourselves of these urges, but we can satisfy them by watching Richard III instead of actually hacking someone to pieces with a sword. >Immoral/moral behavior is inevitably and without exception linked to the >notion of what one believes one should or ought to do. It is linked to instinct. It is what large, aggressive, predators do. In the wars in Africa today, for example, when the soldiers invade villages, they methodically kill all of the small children, usually by throwing them into fires because that takes the least effort. That is horrible, but anyone who knows about male predator behavior will not be surprised to hear about it. >What's the difference between Jed wishing for religion to go away in favor >of "science" (whatever that is), and a Baptist wishing that Mormonism >would vanish from off the face of the earth? The difference is that we are winning. Half of Europe and Japan are free from the dead hand of the past, and I hope eventually all the world will be. Religion served a noble purpose in its day, when we had little or no control over nature, no means to cure disease, and no real understanding the workings of the universe, the origin of life, or any other Big Question. But for the most part religion was a form of mental slavery. It instilled fear, prevented progress, and caused untold mischief and misery. You ask parenthetically, "'science' (whatever that is)." In a nutshell, it is the belief that: All things have a natural explanation, that all phenomena are caused by impersonal laws of physics, not by any expression of sentient will. Natural phenomena have no moral meaning; they are not a punishment or reward or a message to humanity (except insofar as we nowadays cause the weather to some extent!). Any phenomenon must be detectable using scientific instruments, and if it cannot be detected it does not exist in any sense. Thus, if ghosts exist or heaven exists, there has to be a way to detect them with instruments, using objective, repeatable techniques. Their behavior must be governed by natural laws, and their existence must be the product of natural evolution, because the preponderance of evidence indicates that is where all life came from. Finally, it is the belief that all questions about nature can only be settled by the experimental method, and that anything which cannot be tested by experiment is not, in fact, a valid question. Such questions may pertain to art, poetry or love, but they have no meaning in the real physical world. >I'll answer that: no difference; none! Zilch! Similar emotions, the same >sense of self-righteousness. The same conviction of righteous motives. There is a huge difference. Science works, and the pre-modern systems failed, or they barely worked. Look at the outcomes. Ten thousand years governed by superstition and religion brought us from caves to medieval cities. That was quite an accomplishment. But in a mere 400 years, science gave us more real progress and more real understanding than those previous 10,000 years. It is magic that works. >I hear someone say that one does not have to be religious to believe that >impregnating one's children is moral delinquency. If they mean they do not >have to believe in the Christian God to stand on such moral grounds, they >are absolutely right. You do not need to believe in any religion whenever to reach such conclusions. Atheists and moral philosophers such as Confucius throughout the ages have reached exactly the same conclusions without help from religion. > Christianity or any other religion is not superior for all that. If they > mean that there is not some transcendent law to which we are all > beholden, they are dead wrong. It is not a transcendent law; it is the obvious, simple, direct product of evolution. A mammal that repeatedly impregnates its own children will not survive. All universal cross-cultural human beliefs, taboos, laws, and so on are the direct result of natural evolution, and most of them are shared by the other primates. Do you suppose chimpanzees also believe in religion? Is that why they are altruistic? Is that why they take care of orphaned baby chimps -- because God told them to? I think it is because such behavior increases their chance of survival. For that matter, do you suppose God tells new alpha male primates to methodically kill off all the children of the previous male, the way human soldiers do? >Such transcendent laws are the basic tenets of true religion, and we >cannot escape them any more than we can escape the effects of the law of >gravity. Those particular laws are the basic tenets of evolution. We do not need religion to believe in them, any more than we need religion to believe in Ohm's law. - Jed --=====================_7835000==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I will drop the silly, tit-for-tat discussion in which people assert that atheists have contributed nothing to society, but John Robertson has made some interesting, thoughtful comments that deserve a response. He wrote:

You equate religion with superstition, right? . . .

There may be a difference but I cannot tell them apart. I have only studied the ones in Japan and China, where no one would think to make a distinction. Their theology has no objection to superstition, unlike some Christian theologies.


; so for the moment we'll do religion the disservice of using superstition as its substitute. It might be claimed that half the people in Europe are not superstitious, but I doubt it.

Compared to medieval times Europeans are almost free of superstition. See for example, the book "A World Lit Only by Fire."


 I suspect a good lot of them would be lying were they to claim themselves free from all vestiges of superstition. I challenge you to give me any evidence that superstition will ever disappear from the face of the earth, in the same way, for example, that the Samurai tradition did . . .

Of course superstition will never disappear completely, and neither will religion. For that matter there are important vestiges of the samurai tradition in Japan today, in the education system for example. But superstition in Japan has been reduced tremendously. I almost regret it! I have some books describing Edo period and prewar (pre-WWII) superstitions and folk beliefs. There were hundreds of fascinating superstitions and rituals that people today have never heard of. Shamanism is almost extinct. I am glad I got a chance to see it. These folk police have not been replaced with other, similar faith-based systems. Most prewar rural Japanese people had to depend upon faith healing and folk medicine because they could not afford doctors, whereas today most rural Japanese people say they fully depend upon and trust medical science. (That is what they tell social science researchers in formal studies, and what they tell me, in person.)


You might as well wish away human logic as to wish away human superstition.

The trends of history seem to be against it. I hope that I myself am free of superstition -- knock on wood.

Seriously, you are awfully bold declaring that everyone must be superstitious and everyone must believe in religion, and all those Europeans and scientists who say otherwise are kidding themselves. You should credit them with some self-knowledge. If you are certain that you yourself believe in religion, why do you think other people cannot be equally certain they do not believe? Perhaps you are fooling yourself.


But to be fair, let's look at superstition a bit more broadly, since it is a proper subset of something far more important. Please show me a culture in the world that does not instill normative behavior. . .

That is quite a stretch! If you are going to subsume all of morality and normative behavior under the rubric of religion then, yes, of course it will never disappear. I think it would much much more sense to go the other direction and say that 90% of religion is actually made up of rational, logic-based philosophy that developed outside of religion (belief in the supernatural) and has nothing to do with it.

The only part of religion as a belief system that I object is the supernatural part. That is, the assertion that the universe is not governed strictly by impersonal laws, or that it has some built-in moral purpose. My only objection is that it isn't true, as far as I can tell. If the experimental evidence indicated there is a moral purpose, I would be pleased to believe it. Throughout the ages people have offered other reasons to believe such as the notion that religion is beneficial to society. I think you came close to that. This is an elementary logical fallacy: appeal to the consequences of a belief. Even if it could be demonstrated conclusively that society would fall apart overnight in the absence of religion, that is still not a logical reason to believe it.

I have other practical objections to religion as it is practiced (not to the idea), such as the fact that people sometimes resort to faith healing instead of seeking effective medical treatment, and some victims of the tsunami blame themselves for the disaster, and ask why God did this to them. The answer is no one did it to them and they are not to blame for anything. Their religion makes them feel much worse than they need to feel. It adds an extra, useless burden of guilt. Of course sometimes it helps people get through this crises. But, as I said, that is no reason to believe it because -- you know the drill! -- that is an appeal to the consequences of a belief. People are often comforted by false information. When the doctor misdiagnoses  a serious illness and tells you not to worry you will soon recover, you will feel a sense of relief and comfort, but that does not make it true.


I roughly define a moral law = as a belief that is shot through with the notion SHOULD (the linguistic notion of modals): I should not engage in pedophilia; I should help the homeless; I ought to do my homework.

All of these moral laws can be justified without religion. Many systems of ethics and philosophy have been developed that have no reference to religion or the supernatural, starting with Confucianism. Actually, today almost all of these moral laws can be explained as the outcome of evolution, and I am confident that eventually they all will be. They are the product of naturally occurring instinctive behaviors. So is the urge to believe in God, obviously, but we do not always act according to our instincts, because we are domesticated species. We can quench some instincts. For example, we can train ourselves not to act on the homicidal instincts that lead to war and murder. We can never completely free ourselves of these urges, but we can satisfy them by watching Richard III instead of actually hacking someone to pieces with a sword.


Immoral/moral behavior is inevitably and without exception linked to the notion of what one believes one should or ought to do.

It is linked to instinct. It is what large, aggressive, predators do. In the wars in Africa today, for example, when the soldiers invade villages, they methodically kill all of the small children, usually by throwing them into fires because that takes the least effort. That is horrible, but anyone who knows about male predator behavior will not be surprised to hear about it.


What's the difference between Jed wishing for religion to go away in favor of "science" (whatever that is), and a Baptist wishing that Mormonism would vanish from off the face of the earth?

The difference is that we are winning. Half of Europe and Japan are free from the dead hand of the past, and I hope eventually all the world will be. Religion served a noble purpose in its day, when we had little or no control over nature, no means to cure disease, and no real understanding the workings of the universe, the origin of life, or any other Big Question. But for the most part religion was a form of mental slavery. It instilled fear, prevented progress, and caused untold mischief and misery.

You ask parenthetically, "'science' (whatever that is)." In a nutshell, it is the belief that:

All things have a natural explanation, that all phenomena are caused by impersonal laws of physics, not by any expression of sentient will. Natural phenomena have no moral meaning; they are not a punishment or reward or a message to humanity (except insofar as we nowadays cause the weather to some extent!). Any phenomenon must be detectable using scientific instruments, and if it cannot be detected it does not exist in any sense. Thus, if ghosts exist or heaven exists, there has to be a way to detect them with instruments, using objective, repeatable techniques. Their behavior must be governed by natural laws, and their existence must be the product of natural evolution, because the preponderance of evidence indicates that is where all life came from. Finally, it is the belief that all questions about nature can only be settled by the experimental method, and that anything which cannot be tested by experiment is not, in fact, a valid question. Such questions may pertain to art, poetry or love, but they have no meaning in the real physical world.


I'll answer that: no differen= ce; none! Zilch! Similar emotions, the same sense of self-righteousness. The same conviction of righteous motives.

There is a huge difference. Science works, and the pre-modern systems failed, or they barely worked. Look at the outcomes. Ten thousand years governed by superstition and religion brought us from caves to medieval cities. That was quite an accomplishment. But in a mere 400 years, science gave us more real progress and more real understanding than those previous 10,000 years. It is magic that works.


I hear someone= say that one does not have to be religious to believe that impregnating one's children is moral delinquency. If they mean they do not have to believe in the Christian God to stand on such moral grounds, they are absolutely right.

You do not need to believe in any religion whenever to reach such conclusions. Atheists and moral philosophers such as Confucius throughout the ages have reached exactly the same conclusions without help from religion.


 Christia= nity or any other religion is not superior for all that. If they mean that there is not some transcendent law to which we are all beholden, they are dead wrong.

It is not a transcendent law; it is the obvious, simple, direct product of evolution. A mammal that repeatedly impregnates its own children will not survive. All universal cross-cultural human beliefs, taboos, laws, and so on are the direct result of natural evolution, and most of them are shared by the other primates. Do you suppose chimpanzees also believe in religion? Is that why they are altruistic? Is that why they take care of orphaned baby chimps -- because God told them to? I think it is because such behavior increases their chance of survival. For that matter, do you suppose God tells new alpha male primates to methodically kill off all the children of the previous male, the way human soldiers do?


Such transcend= ent laws are the basic tenets of true religion, and we cannot escape them any more than we can escape the effects of the law of gravity.

Those particular laws are the basic tenets of evolution. We do not need religion to believe in them, any more than we need religion to believe in Ohm's law.

- Jed
--=====================_7835000==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 7 09:17:23 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j37GH8RX015303; Thu, 7 Apr 2005 09:17:12 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j37GH4bk015256; Thu, 7 Apr 2005 09:17:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 09:17:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <3rrac5$snenl2 mxip19a.cluster1.charter.net> X-Ironport-AV: i="3.92,84,1112587200"; d="scan'208"; a="964124322:sNHT247003156" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.12 (webedge20-101-197-20030912) From: To: CC: Subject: OT: Bog in a Box Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 16:16:54 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <8x2zu.A.HuD._zVVCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59012 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Ladies and gentlemen... In this corner we have [name deleted to protect the innocent] the world champion fighter for defining Bog in a Box. He thanks Bog every day that his soul is protected because he is inside the box. He wants everyone to know he is saved and wishes others can be saved like him as well by joining his dedicated band of followers within the secured walls of Bog in a Box. In the other corner we have [name deleted to protect the innocent] the competing world champion fighter also defining Bog in a Box. He thanks the Absence-of-Bog every day that he is securely outside the same secured walls and wishes others can be saved like him as well by joining his dedicated band of followers outside the secured walls of Bog in a Box. Gentlemen, you know the rules. No punches below the belt. No illegal holding, or poking of eyes and other sensitive orifices. Go to your respective corners and come out when the bell rings. Oh yeah, I almost forgot. Remember, your respective managers negotiated a million dollar purse for the both of you no matter what the outcome. So, just give the audience what they came for: An exciting fight that our sponsors, BlackLight Power, World Hyperdine Magnetics, and Mr. Fusion will gladly finance. Ding! Regards, Steven Vincent Jonson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 7 09:44:50 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j37GicRX032564; Thu, 7 Apr 2005 09:44:38 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j37GiYAW032526; Thu, 7 Apr 2005 09:44:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 09:44:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: vortex-digest Digest V2005 #168 Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 12:46:15 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <3dc34c85e1bb0922c604fd8e1cf71c5f byu.edu> X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59013 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hey John, I am loathe to get distracted from my attempt at generating some actual religious experience amongst the self styled religious zealots on this list, but one of your points really deserves a reply. You write: >Certain modal laws of human behavior are just as real and significant >as the hide-bound laws that govern the material world. Fathers should >not have sex with their daughters. Men should not rape women. People >should not steal my or your identity. Such transcendency is not hard to >think of. Fair enough. Let's see what the Bible has to say about these things. First off, "Fathers should not have sex with their daughters". Open you bibles please, and turn to Genesis 19:30-36. Bear in mind, Lot and his daughters were the only people God judges pure enough to be saved from destruction. 19:30 And Lot went up out of Zoar, and dwelt in the mountain, and his two daughters with him; for he feared to dwell in Zoar: and he dwelt in a cave, he and his two daughters. 19:31 And the firstborn said unto the younger, Our father is old, and there is not a man in the earth to come in unto us after the manner of all the earth: 19:32 Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father. 19:33 And they made their father drink wine that night: and the firstborn went in, and lay with her father; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose. 19:34 And it came to pass on the morrow, that the firstborn said unto the younger, Behold, I lay yesternight with my father: let us make him drink wine this night also; and go thou in, and lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father. 19:35 And they made their father drink wine that night also: and the younger arose, and lay with him; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose. 19:36 Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father. No problemo for old Lot, it's all OK if you're drunk? On the other hand, having sex with your daughter in law is a major sin. Leviticus is very careful not to address Lot's frolic; although it does come up with some combinations ( like 20:14 ) that most normal people would steer a wide path around. Same with Deuteronomy, it carefully avoids the issue of sex with daughters, although it again addresses all other manners of sexual congress. The closest I can find is 20:12. By the way, it's interesting that Lot is passed out drunk but can perform sexually with both daughters. This before viagra! Leviticus 20:12 20:12 And if a man lie with his daughter in law, both of them shall surely be put to death: they have wrought confusion; their blood shall be upon them. Second, "Men should not rape women." OK, that's just too easy, the bible is chock full of men raping women. Godly men; men of great standing. Let's just get a taste of this with Judges 19:22-29. 19:22 Now as they were making their hearts merry, behold, the men of the city, certain sons of Belial, beset the house round about, and beat at the door, and spake to the master of the house, the old man, saying, Bring forth the man that came into thine house, that we may know him. 19:23 And the man, the master of the house, went out unto them, and said unto them, Nay, my brethren, nay, I pray you, do not so wickedly; seeing that this man is come into mine house, do not this folly. 19:24 Behold, here is my daughter a maiden, and his concubine; them I will bring out now, and humble ye them, and do with them what seemeth good unto you: but unto this man do not so vile a thing. 19:25 But the men would not hearken to him: so the man took his concubine, and brought her forth unto them; and they knew her, and abused her all the night until the morning: and when the day began to spring, they let her go. 19:26 Then came the woman in the dawning of the day, and fell down at the door of the man's house where her lord was, till it was light. 19:27 And her lord rose up in the morning, and opened the doors of the house, and went out to go his way: and, behold, the woman his concubine was fallen down at the door of the house, and her hands were upon the threshold. 19:28 And he said unto her, Up, and let us be going. But none answered. Then the man took her up upon an ass, and the man rose up, and gat him unto his place. 19:29 And when he was come into his house, he took a knife, and laid hold on his concubine, and divided her, together with her bones, into twelve pieces, and sent her into all the coasts of Israel. 19:30 And it was so, that all that saw it said, There was no such deed done nor seen from the day that the children of Israel came up out of the land of Egypt unto this day: consider of it, take advice, and speak your minds. So, if an angry crowd comes to your home demanding to rape your house guests; simply throw your daughters to them. If they reject the daughters, then use your concubine ( interesting order of operations there, huh? ). But do offer your daughters to your house guest for sex, presumably after you've "broken them in". I could go on like this for some time, but again I'm not interested in debating the morality ( or lack thereof ) of a bunch of nomadic shepards and tribesmen. I want to try to get you people to have a direct experience of the divine, which has nothing at all to do with how you use ( or misuse ) your penis. K. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 7 09:50:14 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j37Go7RX003517; Thu, 7 Apr 2005 09:50:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j37Go57O003492; Thu, 7 Apr 2005 09:50:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 09:50:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <425564CF.7030803 pobox.com> Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2005 12:50:23 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.5) Gecko/20050105 Debian/1.7.5-1 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: vortex-digest Digest V2005 #168 References: <200504070027.j370RJhV020511 ultra5.eskimo.com> <3dc34c85e1bb0922c604fd8e1cf71c5f@byu.edu> <6.2.0.14.2.20050407101412.02bba380@pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050407101412.02bba380 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <4fQbjC.A.d2.8SWVCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59014 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > There is a huge difference. Science works, and the pre-modern systems > failed, or they barely worked. Look at the outcomes. Ten thousand > years governed by superstition and religion brought us from caves to > medieval cities. That was quite an accomplishment. But in a mere 400 > years, science gave us more real progress and more real understanding > than those previous 10,000 years. It is magic that works. I disagree with the implicit assertion here that the progress made from year -10,000 to year +1600 was made by religion or superstition, and that progress since then was made with a different scheme. I would claim that all technical progress, from the time when fire was discovered to the present, was made using the same approach: Try things and see what works. The "scientific method" is just a way of making this more methodical, and once discovered, it was found to work -- so, like other things that were tried and found to work, the scientific method was adopted as another "tool". It has a sharper edge than many other tools, because it helps us decide which things work and which don't, and so it might be called a "tool of tools", but none the less it is, also, a tool, and people have always looked for tools that worked. And that search has always used second-hand knowledge -- "I do it this way because Joe said that works" -- because, even 10,000 years ago, people knew far too much for everyone to verify every fact for him/herself. (You _cannot_ take nothing for granted; it's not practical.) You may _think_ you see a sharp kink in the curve of progress at some point, but I think you are just mistaking the rising slope of an exponential growth curve for a step function. Why is it exponential? Because, among other things, having more knowledge makes it easier to discover yet more things that work. Having more facts at ones disposal makes it easier to find relationships among them, and hence to find more ways to manipulate reality which work. When the east-west roads were opened in antiquity (by the Mongols? Not sure) and Marco Polo could visit China, it was a sign that major changes were coming: ideas from east and west, long isolated, could cross-pollinate. Granted, this "exponential" has a bumpy slope, because the velocity of information plotted against time is not not a smooth curve, but none the less the basic idea holds: the more ideas we have, the more new (useful) ones we can find. This is why, if we don't destroy ourselves in the near future, the Internet heralds an age of inconceivable technical progress: Massively larger numbers of people have access to enormously greater masses of facts, making the rate at which new relationships between facts can be be discovered far, far higher. But again, the difference between what Ed Storms is doing in his garage and what one of our ancestors was doing when he tried holding his hand at a different angle when chipping flint is little more than a matter of the size of the knowledge base each has available. I see no difference "in kind" between the two. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 7 09:50:32 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j37GoLRX003620; Thu, 7 Apr 2005 09:50:21 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j37GoJEg003596; Thu, 7 Apr 2005 09:50:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 09:50:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050407121211.02cbd170 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2005 12:50:00 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: This is also an "appeal to emotion" In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050407101412.02bba380 pop.mindspring.com> References: <200504070027.j370RJhV020511 ultra5.eskimo.com> <3dc34c85e1bb0922c604fd8e1cf71c5f byu.edu> <6.2.0.14.2.20050407101412.02bba380 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_12024812==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59015 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_12024812==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I wrote: >Of course sometimes [religion] helps people get through [a] crisis. But, >as I said, that is no reason to believe it because -- you know the drill! >-- that is an appeal to the consequences of a belief. It is also an appeal to emotion. These two fallacies are closely related. The fact that a belief makes you feel good is not evidence it is true, and conversely, the fact that an assertion bothers you is not evidence it is false. Thus, for example, the fact that people are comforted by belief in the afterlife is no evidence that the afterlife exists. Evolution bothers many people because they consider it demeaning, "it reduces people to apes!" and this is routinely given as evidence that evolution must be false. When people say: "evolution will free people to act like animals without morals," that is an appeal to the consequences of a belief. (It is also technically incorrect, because many intelligent animals appear to have morals.) Most claims about magnetic perpetual motion machines appear to be based mainly on an appeal to emotion: "Wouldn't it be wonderful if this machine worked!" Yes, it would, but that does not mean the machine works. This is also the main justification for the hot fusion program and the anti-ballistic missile system. Here is a handy online guide to logical fallacies that I have posted before: http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/ Many modern scientists are not well trained in logic and they often make these mistakes. That is unprofessional. One of the advantages of the 19th-century scientific education grounded in the classics was that it did include a review of these concepts. Chris Tinsley and I both learned these things in school -- we actually had more of a classic education than a typical modern technical education. I think it has been very useful, possibly more useful than, say, learning about chemical elements in detail. I think that nowadays scientific education skimps on these basic logical concepts because the teachers assume the students already know them, because so much other ground must be covered, and perhaps because the teachers themselves have not mastered this subject properly. Most of the arguments against cold fusion boil down to logical fallacies such as appeal to popularity, appeal to ridicule, begging the question and so on. Anti-CF books by Frank Close and Gary Taubes are littered with elementary logical errors. Huizenga's entire thesis boils down to a simple case of begging the question (circular reasoning -- the premises include the claim that the conclusion is true). Close is correct about the technical details, whereas Taubes not only makes logical errors, he also makes dozens of astounding technical errors about things like electricity. You have to wonder how on earth he ever got all those recommendations from Nobel laureates. Taubes is mainly an appeal to ridicule; i.e., "Fleischmann looked stupid on television." Apparently, an appeal to ridicule works with some Nobel laureates, even though philosophers demonstrated it is a fallacy thousands of years ago. Every generation must relearn the basics from scratch. - Jed --=====================_12024812==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" I wrote:

Of course sometimes [religion] helps people get through [a] crisis. But, as I said, that is no reason to believe it because -- you know the drill! -- that is an appeal to the consequences of a belief.

It is also an appeal to emotion. These two fallacies are closely related. The fact that a belief makes you feel good is not evidence it is true, and conversely, the fact that an assertion bothers you is not evidence it is false. Thus, for example, the fact that people are comforted by belief in the afterlife is no evidence that the afterlife exists. Evolution bothers many people because they consider it demeaning, "it reduces people to apes!" and this is routinely given as evidence that evolution must be false. When people say: "evolution will free people to act like animals without morals," that is an appeal to the consequences of a belief. (It is also technically incorrect, because many intelligent animals appear to have morals.)

Most claims about magnetic perpetual motion machines appear to be based mainly on an appeal to emotion: "Wouldn't it be wonderful if this machine worked!" Yes, it would, but that does not mean the machine works. This is also the main justification for the hot fusion program and the anti-ballistic missile system.

Here is a handy online guide to logical fallacies that I have posted before:

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/

Many modern scientists are not well trained in logic and they often make these mistakes. That is unprofessional. One of the advantages of the 19th-century scientific education grounded in the classics was that it did include a review of these concepts. Chris Tinsley and I both learned these things in school -- we actually had more of a classic education than a typical modern technical education. I think it has been very useful, possibly more useful than, say, learning about chemical elements in detail. I think that nowadays scientific education skimps on these basic logical concepts because the teachers assume the students already know them, because so much other ground must be covered, and perhaps because the teachers themselves have not mastered this subject properly. Most of the arguments against cold fusion boil down to logical fallacies such as appeal to popularity, appeal to ridicule, begging the question and so on.

Anti-CF books by Frank Close and Gary Taubes are littered with elementary logical errors. Huizenga's entire thesis boils down to a simple case of begging the question (circular reasoning -- the premises include the claim that the conclusion is true). Close is correct about the technical details, whereas Taubes not only makes logical errors, he also makes dozens of astounding technical errors about things like electricity. You have to wonder how on earth he ever got all those recommendations from Nobel laureates. Taubes is mainly an appeal to ridicule; i.e., "Fleischmann looked stupid on television." Apparently, an appeal to ridicule works with some Nobel laureates, even though philosophers demonstrated it is a fallacy thousands of years ago. Every generation must relearn the basics from scratch.

- Jed
 --=====================_12024812==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 7 10:08:27 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j37H8KRX012207; Thu, 7 Apr 2005 10:08:21 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j37H8Ia8012185; Thu, 7 Apr 2005 10:08:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 10:08:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4255699A.5060500 ix.netcom.com> Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2005 11:10:50 -0600 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: OT: "If I were Pope." References: <20050406010601.23950.qmail web30210.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <425348A3.1080700@ix.netcom.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59016 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: thomas malloy wrote: >> Kyle Mcallister wrote: >> >>> Vortexians, >>> >>> OK, this is getting a little "crazy-go-nuts." >>> >>> 1. Margaret Sanger was responsible for some good, yes. > > > and Ed Storms responded > >> The problem is that some people would be very willing to leave you and >> people with your belief system alone. However, there seems to be an >> unwillingness of certain religious belief systems to leave the rest of >> us alone. > > > Have you considered that G-d might want to affect the course of history, > Ed? An interesting idea. So you believe that God gives us free will then tries to get us to behave in a proper way. Occasionally, God sends a messenger who tries to get people to exercise their free will in the "correct" way. Of course, because of the free will, these messages are interpreted in different ways so that the message is distorted causing wars because each group thinks their interpretation is correct. This seems like a very odd system for a God to create. Then there is the matter of the Islamists, who want to rule the > world. This is no more true than to say that Christianity wants to rule the world. Both religions are trying to spread their beliefs and both belief systems have groups under whose rule I and you would not want to live. On the other hand, in a few countries now and especially in the past, Islam provided a very good religious base for civilized development. If you think that you'd have problems with a Christian theocracy, > you'll really hate them, they make us look like liberals. > >>> >>> 2. I am not pro-abortion for a few reasons. >>> A: It does nothing to encourage people to stop the >>> numerous "meet and f**k" flings. >> >> >> Lack of abortion does not stop f**kings, which all the statistics and >> personal experience shows. > > > But the ability to kill people who are inconvenient does cheapen life War is the most outrageous ability to kill inconvenient people yet it does not get the same criticism as does abortion. I expect you will say that the fetus is innocent so it should be protected while soldiers and people who start wars are not innocent. Nevertheless, innocent people are killed in war. To be consistent, any Christian who objects to abortion should object to war just as strongly. > >> >>> B: I wouldn't know if I was destroying someone who >>> might be something very important one day. >> >> >> Or someone who was a mass murder. Of course, if God wanted a person >> available to do something considered important, why would it matter if >> that body were destroyed? Many more bodies would be available. Also, >> if God is all powerful and all knowing, why would a body that might be >> aborted be chosen? > > > Have you ever heard of free will, Ed? Well you have the right to > exercise it. We believe that free will, combined with our sinful nature > is the reason that the world is in such a mess today. Some of us are > opposed to murder, not to be confused with justified killing. So if I understand correctly, killing in war and as a penalty is ok because the person deserves death, but taking a potential life is murder, which is wrong. Presumably in your belief system, if a bomb or bullet kills an innocent person during war this is not murder, but an accident, hence ok. Frankly, I do not know of a time when the world was not a mess somewhere. Even in the past when the Catholic Church ruled, things were done by the Church that, by all standards, were wrong, were a "sin", and must have been based on a distortion of God's will. Where do you draw the line between what is God's will and what the Church has believed and done during various times in history? Why do you think your particular variation on Christianity is completely correct? > >> >>> C: I do not have to be pro-abortion just because you >>> say so. So many people have tried to force me to be >>> pro-abortion that I am now totally against it mainly >>> in defiance of those who would control my thinking. >> >> >> Why do you think you are being forced to be proabortion and how is >> this done? Of course, many people are being forced to be >> "antiabortion" just because the doctors are being driven out of business. > > > What doctors, the abortionists? The cry that goes up from the pro > abortionists every time we attempt to restrict the practice makes me > think that there is more going on here than the practice of their bloody > business, IMHO, their agenda is to kill humans. Surely Thomas you see the self serving aspects of this interpretation. Put yourself in the place of a women who is pregnant with an unwanted child. She may have too many children already, she may have been raped, she might be too young to properly raise the child, or she does not want the stigma of her actions. You would say that rather than an abortion, she should pay the price for her "sin", and live with the shame or threat to her other children. Meanwhile you project the same lack of compassion on the abortionists. The basic issue is, where should the limited amount of compassion be placed? Is it not possible to have compassion for the doctors who have to do the nasty job, for the pregnant woman, AND for the fetus. In the process, make abortion an important action requiring thought and prayer, but not impossible. > >>> >>> 3. A religious person really really must have made you >>> mad once, Jed? It is fine by me if you are >>> >> >> I know of no proposed legislation that is antireligious. However, I >> know that the religious right is trying to make gay marriage illegal. > > > We are attempting to preserve the traditional definition of the word. > Have you ever heard of Sodom and Gamorrah?, do you recall what happened > to those two cities? You and I both know that what is believed about what happened in Sodom and Gamorrah is largely myth based on the Bible. In fact, homosexual interaction were commonplace in Greek and Roman times without cities being destroyed by God. Modern understanding of sexually is reveling that the gender spectrum between male and female is continuous. A few people are fully male or fully female, while most occupy a region between these extremes. Also, that a person can be moved on this spectrum simply my giving them the proper hormone. Where is the sin in this? >> >> You know, if we are supposed to be so >> >>> pro-women-liberation in other countries, so >>> pro-freedom, so pro-lets-all-get-along-as-equals, so >>> pro- then why the HELL is it >>> ok and dandy to hate religion? I think we need to make a distinction here between spiritually and religion. Many people, myself included, believe that a another variation of this reality exists which can be called the spiritual reality. Religion makes an effort to understand this reality and then institutionalizes the result. In the process, ideas are locked into dogma and conflict results. So when you note that I and other people are antireligious, we appear this way only because we object to the process of creating dogma when we all should be trying to understand this important aspect of out existence. I make the same objection when the same process of creating dogma is applied to science. >> >> >> I did not get the impression that Jed hates religion, nor do I. >> However, I do hate the attitude of certain religions in their belief >> that their God is better than the other God. > > > I'm savy enough to realize that the two of you are just anti religious, > Ed. However, I'm sure you can appreciate that there is, however only > room for one G-d and king in the universe. While I admit this is true, history shows that there is room for more than one interpretation of what this God wants us to do. Although the correct answer has been frequently given, most people have a hard time understanding the message. I do not presume to have a correct understanding, hence I do not believe I have the right to force you to adopt my particular understanding by law. For example, in my ideal world, you would have the right to deny an abortion to your family members and would have the right to talk friends out of using abortion. However, you would not be allowed to prevent my family or anyone else from using this method. The same approach would apply to homosexual marriage. You would have the compassion and acceptance to allow me to go to Hell, if that is the result of my actions. Meanwhile, you could be confident that you would go to Heaven. We could then compare notes when we met in the spiritual reality and see who was right. >> >> If you think I am >> >>> overreacting, then re-read your posts. They were >>> pretty damned irritating to me at least, and I am sure >>> others. Not for your opinion, that is fine. Do what >>> you want. But do not ever try to force it on anyone >>> else. By legislation or otherwise. This statement (the >>> last part anyways) is not directly aimed at anyone. >> >> >> I would also like religious people not to force their beliefs using >> legislation, which is the common approach. > > > The way we see it, there is a religion called Secular Humanism, which is > being promoted by the Liberals. For all their protestations of > separation of religion and government, the followers of this religion > are anxious to use the levers of power which the government provides to > promote it. Allowing freedom of belief and action is not promoting Secular Humanism. The problem comes when certain people want to deny freedom and force other people to adopt actions they are sure are God's will. In other words, they want to deny free will, the very freedom God gave to man according to your belief. Don't you see the contradiction here. Thomas? > > Did you notice Parksie's reaction to the challenge to his orthodoxy? > Intelligent Design just points out the absurdity of spontaneous > biogenesis, but Parksie couldn't stand even that small incursion on his > pet paradigm. Bob Park is a small minded person who enjoys his own cleverness. He is not a spokesman for a liberal approach, although he is frequently right about the stupidity of the government. > > A major tenet of Secular Humanism is an attempt to promote sexuality > immorality and make murder socially acceptable, and we are obligated to > stop it. The Secular Humanists will come out in mass to attempt to stop > the justified killing of a convicted murderer, but seem to feel that the > murder of an inconvenient infant is just fine. They give lip service to > free speech, but when they are authority, which they are in the > educational establishment, are quite intolerant of dissenting speech. > They claim to support the rights of women, but blindly support the most > anti woman religion on Earth, Islam. Their agenda is as simple as ABC, > anything but Christianity. You must be living in a different world than I am, Thomas. I see no such actions or intent on the part of what you call Secular Humanists. All most people want is the freedom to find their own way in this world without some group who thinks they have God on their side telling us what to think and what to do within our own life or family. You want the same, except you do not want the Moslems telling you what to believe. In this sense, we are on the same side. The difference is that I don't want Christians forcing me to adopt their value system either. > >>> >>> 4. Contraception? Sure, why not. I have no problem >>> with this. But please, if anyone out there wants to >>> force the use of them on people who do NOT want to use >>> them, kindly take a hike. This statement is not >>> directly aimed at anyone. >> >> >> As far I know, no one is forced to use contraception. However, for >> awhile in this country and even now in some other countries, condoms >> were not easily available because the Catholic Church was opposed. > > > The contraception issue makes me glad that I'm not a Catholic. > >>> >>> 5. Are you guys actually reading this? I don't get >>> many replies........ >> >> >> Does this quantify? >> >>> >>> 6. You know, the Pope just died. He meant alot to many >>> people. (I am not catholic, by the way, but I damn >>> sure respect them and am not going to say they are 400 >>> years behind!) If this form of lack of respect for the >>> dearly departed is implicit in your atheistic-utopia >>> vision, then count me completely out. >> >> >> I think you miss the difference between respect and agreement with >> opinion and policy. I respect the pope, but I think, for what its >> worth, his policy is harmful to humanity. I respect you but I do not >> share your beliefs. >> >>> >>> 7. If this continued anti-religious bias is to be >>> embraced and accepted, then do not EVER ask me to show >>> compassion towards some special interest group of to >>> feel sorry for Muslims who might have been >>> discriminated against in the days to follow September >>> 11th. Why should one group be discriminated against >>> and not another? >> >> >> Why indeed? I agree, we should be equal opportunity discriminators. :-) > > > You finally said something that I agree with! > >>> >>> 8. DISCLAIMER!!! This is aimed at no one in >>> particular! (so don't take it as being aimed at you, >>> the cost of some contraceptives or an abortion is much >>> more than the cost of the gunpowder it took you to >>> blow yourself to hell. >> >> >> I bit of over reaction. don't you think? > > > Someone is clearly feeling quite frustrated! > >>> >>> There are more, but for the moment I am too pissed off >>> to handle them clearly. I am sorry if the tone is >>> >> >> We all suffer from our past experiences and are sensitive to >> criticism. That is why no laws should be passed for behavior that >> does not harm another person. However, religion seems to think that >> an absolute behavior exists, which is determined by God. Hence, they >> want to force everyone to have that behavior. That is the problem, >> not the reverse, which causes you heart burn. > > > Religion sets out a morality which outlines the standards of behavior. > At this time we all have free will, and compliance is optional. Here, we agree. Now if we can get the so called religious right to agree, we both would be happy. > >>> >>> Jed, you believe science and religion cannot coexist. >>> This isn't a belief, you are stating something as >> >> >> I think Jed was making the general observation that logic based on >> science has a hard time with faith based on religion. If you can, as >> many people do, occupy both worlds without conflict, you are very much >> like most people. > > > Including Isaac Newton and many others who laid the foundations of > scientific logic that you admire so much. > >> >>> >>> Sorry if this offended anyone. But maybe it is time >>> those people who quietly keep getting offended >>> themselves say something. >> >> >> No offense taken. > > > and I hope you will excuse my religious zealotry too. Enthusiasm by a person about his beliefs is to be admired, as long as it is confined to discussion. We all learn something from such an effort. Regards, Ed > >> >> Regards, >> Ed >> >>> >>> Regards, >>> --Kyle >>> > > Thomas > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 7 10:14:07 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j37HDwRX015054; Thu, 7 Apr 2005 10:13:58 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j37HDvKL015039; Thu, 7 Apr 2005 10:13:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 10:13:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42556A6B.5010609 pobox.com> Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2005 13:14:19 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.5) Gecko/20050105 Debian/1.7.5-1 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: OT: "If I were Pope." References: <3rra4i$tdtqrp mxip17a.cluster1.charter.net> In-Reply-To: <3rra4i$tdtqrp mxip17a.cluster1.charter.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59017 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: orionworks charter.net wrote: >Forget about the strange looking floating creature hovering next to the cliff that seems to be defying the laws of gravity, the one you can't catch nor eat. Focus on that hungry looking Saber-tooth tiger crouched on top of the cliff. Yeah, THAT ONE! The one that seems to be considering you for lunch. > > Of course. "Do not see the fnord. If you see the fnord, the fnord will eat you. You must not see the fnord." Makes you wonder -- are there fnords in the information we find on the Internet, too, or are they restricted to physical media? I can't see them so I'm not sure. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 7 10:15:50 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j37HFgRX016124; Thu, 7 Apr 2005 10:15:42 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j37HFecZ016098; Thu, 7 Apr 2005 10:15:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 10:15:40 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=j96CvF9YYfscIMk/hw2TKm913EdjmdIFC4FrwhN6KXgZSPAWyTrlC697tj26fg2tswCVg+HYqsNSXPJVxnVhQ9iHwDD4C8f0jgRnqu338EpbUi7kHTttOvyT4wCYSi3R2T4kO51iUSmFrI6M+SM6wx6p4X51HqIUeQqW7xF5ejY= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 10:15:37 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [OT] Constitutional Reform Act In-Reply-To: <059b01c53b67$1ea27240$8745ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 References: <4254A2C1.9000404 pobox.com> <059b01c53b67$1ea27240$8745ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j37HFcRX016070 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59018 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: heres teh deal. first thing it does, is, if a judge says, "the bible rules me, and becuase of the bible, i say two men farking is wrong, take those fags out of my court and stone them till dead" guess what. they would have NO recourse whatsoever. part two, only interpret based on the constitution and ENGLISH COMMON LAW AS IT STOOD AT THE TIME THE CONSTITUTION WAS WRITTEN! thats pretty farking conservative, and it requires everyone to live by those old outdated rules. it is a set up for a military theocracy. and ill make a prediction. this law passes, i give 2 years, 3 tops, to teh next civil war. On Apr 7, 2005 4:44 AM, Mike Carrell wrote: > A setup for disaster: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" > To: "Vortex" > Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2005 11:02 PM > Subject: [OT] Constitutional Reform Act > > > I've had this act, which may become law in a few months, pointed out to > > me as a catastrophe in the making. I looked at the act, I read some of > > the commentary on it, and I can't decide -- is it a disaster, is it the > > camel getting his nose under the tent, or is it just irrelevant? Here's > > the gist of the act: > > > > > `Notwithstanding any other provision of this chapter, the Supreme > > > Court shall not have jurisdiction to review, by appeal, writ of > > > certiorari, or otherwise, any matter to the extent that relief is > > > sought against an element of Federal, State, or local government, or > > > against an officer of Federal, State, or local government (whether or > > > not acting in official personal capacity), by reason of that element's > > > or officer's acknowledgement of God as the sovereign source of law, > > > liberty, or government.'. > > > > This phrase, "acknowledgement of God as the sovereign source of law, > liberty, or government." is a setup for a theocratic state and a recipe for > disaster. It opens the door to citation of a particular religion, a > particular translation, a particular text, a particular interpretation of > the text as overriding the constitution of the US or the power of the courts > to moderate acts of government officials. The word "sovereign" carries with > it authority over all other things. Any firebrand who claims that God speaks > to him can claim authority. > > Mike Carrell > > -- "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 7 10:38:13 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j37Hc8RX028264; Thu, 7 Apr 2005 10:38:08 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j37Hc5BP028242; Thu, 7 Apr 2005 10:38:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 10:38:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: OT: "If I were Pope." Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 13:39:46 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <42556A6B.5010609 pobox.com> X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59019 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hey Stephen, Uh oh, time for a Hymn, **************** Onward Christian soldiers, Onward Buddhist priests, Onwards, fruits of Islam, Fight 'till you're deceased. Fight your little battles, Join in thickest fray, for the greater glory, of Dis-cord-ia, Fnord. **************** -----Original Message----- From: Stephen A. Lawrence [mailto:salaw pobox.com] Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2005 1:14 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: OT: "If I were Pope." orionworks charter.net wrote: >Forget about the strange looking floating creature hovering next to the cliff that seems to be defying the laws of gravity, the one you can't catch nor eat. Focus on that hungry looking Saber-tooth tiger crouched on top of the cliff. Yeah, THAT ONE! The one that seems to be considering you for lunch. > > Of course. "Do not see the fnord. If you see the fnord, the fnord will eat you. You must not see the fnord." Makes you wonder -- are there fnords in the information we find on the Internet, too, or are they restricted to physical media? I can't see them so I'm not sure. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 7 10:47:26 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j37HlIRX032215; Thu, 7 Apr 2005 10:47:18 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j37HlEF8032187; Thu, 7 Apr 2005 10:47:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 10:47:14 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=6iRqVXbNPn6eHUgrEM7oQEA8EyD4u7xZFeBJ4KhFggQaZmpVXCXVFxBITZXc9K8brVlDgqMagKEpamZqqqJTDetk1TRx2e9ZcZVMq+dOl/4rDPwX4YVMNwBHwJ1meV/h4lKmiwkWJFjUgfMW394ygAm9A5pp8Gg2lyrHcFCNw14= ; Message-ID: <20050407174706.75170.qmail web51710.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 10:47:06 -0700 (PDT) From: Terry Blanton Subject: RE: vortex-digest Digest V2005 #168 To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1124305989-1112896026=:74369" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59020 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-1124305989-1112896026=:74369 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hugh Grant might dispute that. :-Þ http://www.thesmokinggun.com/mugshots/grantmug1.html Keith Nagel wrote: I want to try to get you people to have a direct experience of the divine, which has nothing at all to do with how you use ( or misuse ) your penis. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Better first dates. More second dates. Yahoo! Personals --0-1124305989-1112896026=:74369 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Hugh Grant might dispute that.  :-Þ
 
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/mugshots/grantmug1.html

Keith Nagel <knagel gis.net> wrote:
I want to try to get you people to have a direct experience
of the divine, which has nothing at all to do with how you use ( or misuse )
your penis.

Do you Yahoo!?
Better first dates. More second dates. Yahoo! Personals --0-1124305989-1112896026=:74369-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 7 11:01:35 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j37I1PRX006100; Thu, 7 Apr 2005 11:01:26 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j37I1NKL006079; Thu, 7 Apr 2005 11:01:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 11:01:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=hzqc7qkz3ugKM4JPQ7GQh841OZx8eiZLPcRWOR9rIVIYwB5vny1Yv+EdsIm60foxPy0+VD1mJsqjfh59CaLzA4KpK7kfr6yUtyPhJQt3JIjouxkyiwgwP+zqpE5fyLpRqc9R+uStzYARP33/dPInk8m9nIp2QNcUmvvzqFPwWgQ= ; Message-ID: <20050407180111.80344.qmail web51710.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 11:01:11 -0700 (PDT) From: Terry Blanton Subject: RE: OT: "If I were Pope." To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: 6667 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1715566054-1112896871=:77243" Resent-Message-ID: <_Sy91D.A.7eB.zVXVCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59021 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-1715566054-1112896871=:77243 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Praise Bob and pass the slack! Keith Nagel wrote:Hey Stephen, Uh oh, time for a Hymn, **************** Onward Christian soldiers, Onward Buddhist priests, Onwards, fruits of Islam, Fight 'till you're deceased. Fight your little battles, Join in thickest fray, for the greater glory, of Dis-cord-ia, Fnord. **************** --------------------------------- Yahoo! Messenger Show us what our next emoticon should look like. Join the fun. --0-1715566054-1112896871=:77243 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Praise Bob and pass the slack!

Keith Nagel <knagel gis.net> wrote:
Hey Stephen,

Uh oh, time for a Hymn,

****************
Onward Christian soldiers,
Onward Buddhist priests,
Onwards, fruits of Islam,
Fight 'till you're deceased.
Fight your little battles,
Join in thickest fray,
for the greater glory,
of Dis-cord-ia,

Fnord.
****************

Yahoo! Messenger
Show us what our next emoticon should look like. Join the fun. --0-1715566054-1112896871=:77243-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 7 11:01:58 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j37I1mRX006240; Thu, 7 Apr 2005 11:01:49 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j37I1kcb006212; Thu, 7 Apr 2005 11:01:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 11:01:46 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050407125209.02ce9620 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2005 13:02:45 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Scientific method and the 1600 inflection In-Reply-To: <425564CF.7030803 pobox.com> References: <200504070027.j370RJhV020511 ultra5.eskimo.com> <3dc34c85e1bb0922c604fd8e1cf71c5f byu.edu> <6.2.0.14.2.20050407101412.02bba380 pop.mindspring.com> <425564CF.7030803 pobox.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_16310000==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59022 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --=====================_16310000==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: >I disagree with the implicit assertion here that the progress made from >year -10,000 to year +1600 was made by religion or superstition, and that >progress since then was made with a different scheme. I did not mean that. Let me clarify: progress was made despite religion and superstition. It was made in the thrall of these institutions. It wasn't completely one-sided. As I noted earlier Christianity and other moral philosophies made many vital contributions to the burgeoning scientific method, such as individualism. >I would claim that all technical progress, from the time when fire was >discovered to the present, was made using the same approach: Try things >and see what works. The "scientific method" is just a way of making this >more methodical, and once discovered, it was found to work . . . I agree. This point was made by James Conant ("Modern Science and Modern Man") and many others. The basic techniques have been used for thousands of years, but when you might call the purified method, or essence of scientific method based on experiments and mathematical proof, emerged circa 1600. >You may _think_ you see a sharp kink in the curve of progress at some >point, but I think you are just mistaking the rising slope of an >exponential growth curve for a step function. Here I disagree, and I have potent evidence to the contrary. This goes back to Japanese and Chinese history, and I thought about it again the other day when I was reading J. Diamond's book, "Guns, Germs and Steel," which I highly recommend, by the way. As Diamond points out, and as every student of Asian history should know, the Eurasian continent was remarkably porous and easy to cross compared to other land masses, and that is why Eurasian people all the way from Japan over to England emerged with the strongest technology after the ice ages. In that sense I certainly agree there was major progress in the ~10,000 years before modern science began. For example, the discovery of paper and gunpowder went from China to the west, and the discovery of guns circa 1400 went the other direction with remarkable speed. Guns reached Japan only 50 years after they were discovered, and the Japanese soon manufactured some of the best guns on earth. Obviously this meant that other critical discovery in metallurgy and steelmaking had reached Japan long before. Pendulum clocks with the statements reached an soon after they were invented. They were improved and made much more accurate, and in fact some were developed that had variable length hours (which to the modern mind defeats the purpose of a clock). But here is the thing. Starting in 1600, modern science began in Europe and it did *not* reach Japan or China. The reasons are complex and beyond the scope of the discussion, but this particular technique did not fit into their societies at that time. It was not for lack of exposure. The Japanese translated scientific books from Dutch, and the Japanese elite was aware of the rapid technological and scientific progress in Europe. But they could not absorb or countenance this new worldview. To be sure, the Japanese did have many superb forms of premodern science, especially in agriculture, medicine and mathematics. As I said they had metallurgy and precision manufacturing good enough to make any scientific instrument. Sooner or later they may well have developed the scientific method on their own. But they did not have it from 1600 to 1860, and that meant their societies were left drastically behind to an extent that we can hardly imagine today. When the Americans showed up in 1848, the Japanese were still living in medieval conditions, using bows and arrows and muskets 200 years out of date. If they had not reformed instantly and begun to study science, technology and particularly military science at a furious rate, they would have been colonized within a few decades, and their society and traditions destroyed. If Japan had remained as it was in 1850, then by 1900 a small fleet of US ships and 10,000 troops could have destroyed the country easily as they took over the Philippines that year, or as easily as the British crushed the Chinese in the opium wars, and the U.S. crushed the Iraqi military in 2003. Despite the samurai traditions it would have been a walk over, although I suppose a guerrilla war might have continued for decades. Go back to 1600 and compare Japan and Britain. The two were remarkably similar. They had the same land area, the same population, the same advanced level of education, health care and so on. They were both at peace and by the standards of ancient nations they were governed in a lawful manner by responsible officials who had excellent record-keeping and a good grasp of mathematics. They were both incredibly prosperous. Neither of them had much in the way of natural resources. The only important difference in the development of the two countries from 1600 to 1860 was the application of the scientific method in Britain, and the complete lack of that method in Japan. The last piece of evidence is the clearest of all. In 1868 the Japanese began furiously importing the scientific method, modern education, and large dose of democratic government. A generation later caught up, and in 1941 they destroyed most of the U.S. Navy -- a big mistake, yes, but the fact that they were physically able to do that is astounding when you consider conditions in 1868. People in America may doubt that science was the key to the development of Japan. Can it really be that simple? -- you might wonder. Can a single idea have that much power over the fate of a civilization? It seems manifestly obvious to me that the answer is yes, it can. I have never met a Japanese intellectual who disagreed. They take it for granted that science was the one thing they lacked. I think that is true of all other societies remaining in the world that have still not grasp the scientific method, such as the backward Middle Eastern regimes. As I said, I mean "science" in the larger sense -- science as cultural world view, including a set of ethics. Not just the hands-on technology or the gadgets. Even Al Qaeda can borrow them. I mean the overall set of ethics such as respect for the individual, giving no special privilege to any previous idea or individual, the grand concepts such as the ones I outlined earlier about assuming that all events are governed by impersonal natural laws, there is no moral meaning inherent in phenomena such as earthquakes, and all questions must be settled by experiment. Obviously, people with the mindset of Al Qaeda could not develop airplanes or modern weapons even if they had another 10,000 years to work on them. Left to their own devices they would still be living in caves. They must know that subconsciously, which I suppose is why they despise technology and intellectual freedom. Samurai despised freedom too -- they were fascist dictators, after all -- but they loved technology more than they loved power, and they were patriotic and did not wish to see their country overrun by the Western powers. Many of my Japanese scientist friends believe that the scientific method was introduced in 1868, but it did not permeate into society deeply. Not deeply enough for them. They still had a lot to learn, and they were taught, very thoroughly, by the US occupation. These scientists are glad the US occupied Japan. I doubt you will find many people in other walks of life who agree! I think what it amounts to is that Japanese scientists tend to be Western in spirit and ethics. They are in fact, people exactly like me, with whom I feel completely at home in every respect. (They also tend to be atheists, just as U.S. scientists are.) As Marx pointed out, a person's ethics and worldview is more dependent upon his trade than his nationality or culture. Science makes scientists into the kind of people they are -- or perhaps people who are like that in the first place gravitate toward science. >But again, the difference between what Ed Storms is doing in his garage >and what one of our ancestors was doing when he tried holding his hand at >a different angle when chipping flint is little more than a matter of the >size of the knowledge base each has available. I see no difference "in >kind" between the two. If you could spend two or three years in a Japanese biology laboratory today, and then magically transport yourself back to 1868 in Japan when science as we know it did not exist, you would then see ENORMOUS differences between what Ed Storms does and what people did before. For one thing, they had to start by throwing away Confucian traditions of respect for the elderly and for hierarchy. They had to accept that all suggestions must be treated equally without regard to the person making the suggestion, and without regard to tradition. That alone tore the guts out of their samurai ethics. The Japanese biologists I worked with in 1972 still clearly remembered prewar conditions, and they had distant, cloudy memories of stories they heard from their grandparents about premodern times. They said that both the introduction of science and the reintroduction in 1945 was like coming from darkness into light. Even 94 years after the first revelation, they still felt it was the most dramatic and abrupt transition in all their history, and Japanese history is very eventful and chock-full of transitions! I think it is fair to say that I relearned the value of science by observing the effect it had on Japanese society. Not that I never doubted it, but it was a vivid lesson. This and other history, such as the 9/11 attack, demonstrate that ideas are the most powerful force on earth, for both good and evil. - Jed --=====================_16310000==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Stephen A. Lawrence wrote:


I disagree with the implicit assertion here that the progress made from year -10,000 to year +1600 was made by religion or superstition, and that progress since then was made with a different scheme.

I did not mean that. Let me clarify: progress was made despite religion and superstition. It was made in the thrall of these institutions.

It wasn't completely one-sided. As I noted earlier Christianity and other moral philosophies made many vital contributions to the burgeoning scientific method, such as individualism.


I would claim that all techni= cal progress, from the time when fire was discovered to the present, was made using the same approach:  Try things and see what works.  The "scientific method" is just a way of making this more methodical, and once discovered, it was found to work . . .

I agree. This point was made by James Conant ("Modern Science and Modern Man") and many others. The basic techniques have been used for thousands of years, but when you might call the purified method, or essence of scientific method based on experiments and mathematical proof, emerged circa 1600.


You may _think_ you see a sha= rp kink in the curve of progress at some point, but I think you are just mistaking the rising slope of an exponential growth curve for a step function.

Here I disagree, and I have potent evidence to the contrary. This goes back to Japanese and Chinese history, and I thought about it again the other day when I was reading J. Diamond's book, "Guns, Germs and Steel," which I highly recommend, by the way. As Diamond points out, and as every student of Asian history should know, the Eurasian continent was remarkably porous and easy to cross compared to other land masses, and that is why Eurasian people all the way from Japan over to England emerged with the strongest technology after the ice ages. In that sense I certainly agree there was major progress in the ~10,000 years before modern science began. For example, the discovery of paper and gunpowder went from China to the west, and the discovery of guns circa 1400 went the other direction with remarkable speed. Guns reached Japan only 50 years after they were discovered, and the Japanese soon manufactured some of the best guns on earth. Obviously this meant that other critical discovery in metallurgy and steelmaking had reached Japan long before. Pendulum clocks with the statements reached an soon after they were invented. They were improved and made much more accurate, and in fact some were developed that had variable length hours (which to the modern mind defeats the purpose of a clock).

But here is the thing. Starting in 1600, modern science began in Europe and it did *not* reach Japan or China. The reasons are complex and beyond the scope of the discussion, but this particular technique did not fit into their societies at that time. It was not for lack of exposure. The Japanese translated scientific books from Dutch, and the Japanese elite was aware of the rapid technological and scientific progress in Europe. But they could not absorb or countenance this new worldview. To be sure, the Japanese did have many superb forms of premodern science, especially in agriculture, medicine and mathematics. As I said they had metallurgy and precision manufacturing good enough to make any scientific instrument. Sooner or later they may well have developed the scientific method on their own. But they did not have it from 1600 to 1860, and that meant their societies were left drastically behind to an extent that we can hardly imagine today.

When the Americans showed up in 1848, the Japanese were still living in medieval conditions, using bows and arrows and muskets 200 years out of date. If they had not reformed instantly and begun to study science, technology and particularly military science at a furious rate, they would have been colonized within a few decades, and their society and traditions destroyed. If Japan had remained as it was in 1850, then by 1900 a small fleet of US ships and 10,000 troops could have destroyed the country easily as they took over the Philippines that year, or as easily as the British crushed the Chinese in the opium wars, and the U.S. crushed the Iraqi military in 2003. Despite the samurai traditions it would have been a walk over, although I suppose a guerrilla war might have continued for decades.

Go back to 1600 and compare Japan and Britain. The two were remarkably similar. They had the same land area, the same population, the same advanced level of education, health care and so on. They were both at peace and by the standards of ancient nations they were governed in a lawful manner by responsible officials who had excellent record-keeping and a good grasp of mathematics. They were both incredibly prosperous. Neither of them had much in the way of natural resources. The only important difference in the development of the two countries from 1600 to 1860 was the application of the scientific method in Britain, and the complete lack of that method in Japan.

The last piece of evidence is the clearest of all. In 1868 the Japanese began furiously importing the scientific method, modern education, and large dose of democratic government. A generation later caught up, and in 1941 they destroyed most of the U.S. Navy -- a big mistake, yes, but the fact that they were physically able to do that is astounding when you consider conditions in 1868.

People in America may doubt that science was the key to the development of Japan. Can it really be that simple? -- you might wonder. Can a single idea have that much power over the fate of a civilization? It seems manifestly obvious to me that the answer is yes, it can. I have never met a Japanese intellectual who disagreed. They take it for granted that science was the one thing they lacked. I think that is true of all other societies remaining in the world that have still not grasp the scientific method, such as the backward Middle Eastern regimes. As I said, I mean "science" in the larger sense -- science as cultural world view, including a set of ethics. Not just the hands-on technology or the gadgets. Even Al Qaeda can borrow them. I mean the overall set of ethics such as respect for the individual, giving no special privilege to any previous idea or individual, the grand concepts such as the ones I outlined earlier about assuming that all events are governed by impersonal natural laws, there is no moral meaning inherent in phenomena such as earthquakes, and all questions must be settled by experiment.

Obviously, people with the mindset of Al Qaeda could not develop airplanes or modern weapons even if they had another 10,000 years to work on them. Left to their own devices they would still be living in caves. They must know that subconsciously, which I suppose is why they despise technology and intellectual freedom. Samurai despised freedom too -- they were fascist dictators, after all -- but they loved technology more than they loved power, and they were patriotic and did not wish to see their country overrun by the Western powers.

Many of my Japanese scientist friends believe that the scientific method was introduced in 1868, but it did not permeate into society deeply. Not deeply enough for them. They still had a lot to learn, and they were taught, very thoroughly, by the US occupation. These scientists are glad the US occupied Japan. I doubt you will find many people in other walks of life who agree! I think what it amounts to is that Japanese scientists tend to be Western in spirit and ethics. They are in fact, people exactly like me, with whom I feel completely at home in every respect. (They also tend to be atheists, just as U.S. scientists are.)

As Marx pointed out, a person's ethics and worldview is more dependent upon his trade than his nationality or culture. Science makes scientists into the kind of people they are -- or perhaps people who are like that in the first place gravitate toward science.


But again, the difference between what Ed Storms is doing in his garage and what one of our ancestors was doing when he tried holding his hand at a different angle when chipping flint is little more than a matter of the size of the knowledge base each has available.  I see no difference "in kind" between the two.

If you could spend two or three years in a Japanese biology laboratory today, and then magically transport yourself back to 1868 in Japan when science as we know it did not exist, you would then see ENORMOUS differences between what Ed Storms does and what people did before. For one thing, they had to start by throwing away Confucian traditions of respect for the elderly and for hierarchy. They had to accept that all suggestions must be treated equally without regard to the person making the suggestion, and without regard to tradition. That alone tore the guts out of their samurai ethics. The Japanese biologists I worked with in 1972 still clearly remembered prewar conditions, and they had distant, cloudy memories of stories they heard from their grandparents about premodern times. They said that both the introduction of science and the reintroduction in 1945 was like coming from darkness into light. Even 94 years after the first revelation, they still felt it was the most dramatic and abrupt transition in all their history, and Japanese history is very eventful and chock-full of transitions!

I think it is fair to say that I relearned the value of science by observing the effect it had on Japanese society. Not that I never doubted it, but it was a vivid lesson. This and other history, such as the 9/11 attack, demonstrate that ideas are the most powerful force on earth, for both good and evil.

- Jed
 --=====================_16310000==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 7 11:17:29 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j37IHJRX015180; Thu, 7 Apr 2005 11:17:20 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j37IHIBI015165; Thu, 7 Apr 2005 11:17:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 11:17:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050407141049.02cbe7e8 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2005 14:16:56 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Meant "escapement" In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050407125209.02ce9620 pop.mindspring.com> References: <200504070027.j370RJhV020511 ultra5.eskimo.com> <3dc34c85e1bb0922c604fd8e1cf71c5f byu.edu> <6.2.0.14.2.20050407101412.02bba380 pop.mindspring.com> <425564CF.7030803 pobox.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050407125209.02ce9620 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_17241546==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59023 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_17241546==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I wrote: >Pendulum clocks with the statements reached an soon after they were invented. I meant pendulum clocks with escapements. Voice input error. I should have said, clocks with escapements and then later pendulum clocks. The escapement came first. It was one of the great medieval breakthroughs in technology in the 14th century. Christian Huygens invented the pendulum clock in 1656, and it took a while to reach Japan. - Jed --=====================_17241546==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" I wrote:

Pendulum clocks with the statements reached an soon after they were invented.

I meant pendulum clocks with escapements. Voice input error. I should have said, clocks with escapements and then later pendulum clocks. The escapement came first. It was one of the great medieval breakthroughs in technology in the 14th century. Christian Huygens invented the pendulum clock in 1656, and it took a while to reach Japan.

- Jed
--=====================_17241546==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 7 11:28:32 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j37ISORX023010; Thu, 7 Apr 2005 11:28:25 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j37ISNxm022994; Thu, 7 Apr 2005 11:28:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 11:28:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <3rr7ar$u2l5d7 mxip11a.cluster1.charter.net> X-Ironport-AV: i="3.92,84,1112587200"; d="scan'208"; a="1009423783:sNHT30497828" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.12 (webedge20-101-197-20030912) From: To: CC: Subject: OT: "If I were Pope." Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 18:28:14 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59024 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" ... > Of course. > > "Do not see the fnord. If you see the fnord, the fnord > will eat you. You must not see the fnord." > > Makes you wonder -- are there fnords in the information > we find on the Internet, too, or are they restricted to > physical media? I can't see them so I'm not sure. Makes me wonder too. Just yesterday after work, as I was driving across town to partake in a small Quaker Meeting (I occasionally like to sit quietly amongst these gentle folks) when I came to 4-way intersection with four stop signs. It's a part of the road that I've crossed a zillion times before. As I approached my stop sign I made a very conscious decision to check both ways for cars as well as for oncoming traffic. THIS IS IMPORTANT NOTE! I MADE AN UNUSUALLY CONSCIOUS DECISION TO CHECK FOR CARS! Yup! I noted the car on the left had come to a stop. Yup! I noted the car on the right had come to a complete stop. Yup! I even noted the car on the opposite side of my road had as well. Feeling secure that all cars had stopped I knew it was legally my turn to drive my car across the busy intersection. I lurched my car forward. That's when I noticed the Bus coming at me. I was so intent on watching for all those pesky cars that I literally missed seeing the bus that, visually speaking, is ten times the size of any car. I had visually and in the most literal sense one can imagine blinded myself to the fact that bus had also come to a stop and had started making moving across the intersection. I screeched to a stop, as did the bus driver. He honked his horn in absolute indignation at me, and I can't say that I blame him. Later, as I tried sitting quietly in Quaker Meditation it goes without saying that I had a lot on my mind. I made the following observation: Bog, indeed, has a sense of humor, especially if the action can be performed at my own expense. I think Bog was also getting even with me for all the times when as a small child (that is, when I was more ethically challenged) I dumped armies of black and red ants into the same ant farm just to watch the carnage. I hope I've paid my dues. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 7 12:14:40 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j37JESRX011451; Thu, 7 Apr 2005 12:14:28 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j37JEOXs011397; Thu, 7 Apr 2005 12:14:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 12:14:24 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001601c53ba5$fd9b8e80$0600a8c0 nixlaptop> From: "Nick Palmer" To: References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050407093250.02c43970 pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Windmills in the sky after all! Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 20:14:11 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0013_01C53BAE.5CA8C5C0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59025 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C53BAE.5CA8C5C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A restrained British WOW!! This flying windmill concept looks really = exciting. I'd heard speculation about kites in the jet stream before but = there were always problems with the weight of the tether/power line. I = particularly like that it can fly up to altitude under control and back = down for maintenance... They suggest that they are having difficulty = attracting venture capital at the moment. They do not mention the = voltage gradient that can occur in the atmosphere on their website - = anyone with more knowledge than I care to speculate on whether this = would be a help or hindrance? ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C53BAE.5CA8C5C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
A restrained British WOW!! This flying = windmill=20 concept looks really exciting. I'd heard speculation about kites in the = jet=20 stream before but there were always problems with the weight of the = tether/power=20 line. I particularly like that it can fly up to altitude under = control and=20 back down for maintenance...  They suggest that they are having = difficulty=20 attracting venture capital at the moment. They do not mention the = voltage=20 gradient that can occur in the atmosphere on their website - anyone with = more=20 knowledge than I care to speculate on whether this would be a help or=20 hindrance?
------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C53BAE.5CA8C5C0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 7 14:10:23 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j37LA9RX003028; Thu, 7 Apr 2005 14:10:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j37LA2Jp002968; Thu, 7 Apr 2005 14:10:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 14:10:02 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050407151408.02cd4930 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2005 17:09:24 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Scientific method and the 1600 inflection In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050407125209.02ce9620 pop.mindspring.com> References: <200504070027.j370RJhV020511 ultra5.eskimo.com> <3dc34c85e1bb0922c604fd8e1cf71c5f byu.edu> <6.2.0.14.2.20050407101412.02bba380 pop.mindspring.com> <425564CF.7030803 pobox.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050407125209.02ce9620 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_27599796==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: <0UXV_.A.-t.oGaVCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59026 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --=====================_27599796==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I wrote: >If you could spend two or three years in a Japanese biology laboratory >today, and then magically transport yourself back to 1868 in Japan when >science as we know it did not exist, you would then see ENORMOUS >differences between what Ed Storms does and what people did before. For >one thing, they had to start by throwing away Confucian traditions of >respect for the elderly and for hierarchy. . . . There are countless other differences. In 1868 even educated Japanese people might have argued for months about questions that Storms would settle in a few hours with an experiment. They would be unwilling to do many experiments because they thought it would be immoral or it might anger the gods. This is similar to the premodern European taboo against autopsies. Also, they would constantly mix together moral and ethical arguments with technical issues. To make up an example, rather than asking whether it would be effective to mix two chemicals, they would argue whether it was right, or moral, or traditional, or Kosher (okay with the gods), or they would try to decide on the basis of chemistry that recognized only earth, air, fire and water as elements. Their were completely anthropocentric, just as Europeans were. Everything was defined by its usefulness to man, or its moral message. You have to go back and read books written before the scientific age to get a sense of how alien it was. Jamese Burke described one: "The Etymologies were massive, rambling and confused. Later scholars, such as the Venerable Bede, the eighth-century Abbot of Wearmouth and Jarrow in Northumberland, added to it from time to time. The encyclopedias and the other lists of 'facts' about the world to be found at the time in various books on minerals, animals and plants, presented the knowledge in what would appear to us a strange way. Everything had a hidden meaning, because, according to Augustine's teaching, nature's true meaning was not made visible by God. Nothing, therefore, was what it seemed. The 'Book of Nature' was a cryptogram that had to be decoded by the faithful. The world described in these books was a world of shadows. Behind every object lay an 'idea', a spiritual entity that was its only real meaning. Its earthly, visible manifestation was unimportant. Everything was of dual significance: red was both a colour, and a symbol of the blood of Christ. Wood recalled the True Cross. The crab's sideways motion symbolised fraudulence. The whole of the sky was filled with signs/Astrology endowed all of nature with power to affect life in some way. But this weird, mystic interpretation of reality was driven back inside the monasteries when new invasions and the break up of Charlemagne's Empire after his death in the ninth century brought Europe into chaos once more. . . ." "The Day The Universe Changed," p. 28. It is astonishing that people who could make such superb steel swords and guns were mired in chaotic ignorance. A lot of people feel the Japanese must have known more than they let on, and somehow their knowledge has been lost or overlooked. (See, for example, http://coombs.anu.edu.au/SpecialProj/APM/TXT/low-m-02-96.html) How did people who never imagined that oxygen might exist manage to make steel? The answer is: with great difficult. They spent centuries gradually developing techniques by trial and error that a modern metallurgist could work out in a year. No wonder they were so steeped in tradition and afraid to try anything new. It was not just a case of having lots of facts at hand which you can throw together to invent new ways to make swords, the way Stephen Lawrence suggest. They had facts galore in Japan. Some of their observational sciences such as botany, in which they collected and categorized different species, was quite advanced and detailed. What they did not have was an organizing principle and a method of making sense of these facts. In 1600, Europeans were in the same mess, but *they* discovered a way out. Francis Bacon was the first to see what was missing, and how the problems might be remedied. He saw that even skilled craftsmen such as sword-makers did not understand what they were doing. In 1620 he described the system that evolved into modern science: "Those who become practically versed in nature, are the mechanic, the mathematician, the physician, the alchymist, and the magician; but all (as matters now stand) with faint efforts and meagre success. . . . We have no sound notions either in logic or physics; substance, quality, action, passion, and existence are not clear notions; much less, weight, levity, density, tenuity, moisture, dryness, generation, corruption, attraction, repulsion, element, matter, form, and the like. They are all fantastical and ill defined." ". . . The present method of experiment is blind and stupid. Hence men wandering and roaming without any determined course, and consulting mere chance, are hurried about to various points, and advance but little; at one time they are happy, at another their attention is distracted, and they always find that they want something further. Men generally make their experiments carelessly, and as it were in sport, making some little variation in a known experiment, and then, if they fail, they become disgusted and give up the attempt . . ." ". . . the testimony and information of the senses bears always a relation to man and not to the universe, and it is altogether a great mistake to assert that our senses are the measure of things. To encounter these difficulties, we have everywhere sought and collected helps for the senses with laborious and faithful service, in order to supply defects and correct errors: and that not so much by means of instruments, as by experiments . . ." Such ideas may seem obvious to us, but they were *revolutionary* and unprecedented, which is why they did not reach Japan for so long. It is a great mistake to assume that people everywhere naturally and automatically arrive at such methods. The experimental method itself was a discovery -- one that only a superlative genius could make. This breakthrough was only made once in all of history as far as anyone knows. It spread from England to Europe, and finally to the whole world. It was as difficult as the invention of writing or electric lights, or the discovery of evolution or special relativity. It was, in my opinion, the greatest intellectual triumph in human history, exceeding even Newton's "Principia" -- the other great milestone in human history. It is not surprising this took 250 years to penetrate into Japan. Importing the technology to make guns is trivial in comparison. Bacon's mind-bending philosophical breakthrough must have seemed insane to the medieval mind. Bacon was telling society it should throw away 99% of all the knowledge civilization had accumulated. He was telling the Japanese they should toss out wisdom that had been handed down to the Emperor by the gods themselves when the world was created, and they should replace it with notions cooked by scruffy, humble, underpaid little men working with absurd-looking gadgets made of brass and glass. Of course there are still people today, such as the denizens of sci.physics.fusion, who will argue for months, or years, about questions that Storms would settle in a few hours with an experiment. They are in the modern world but not of it. They are mired in a medieval mindset. The revolution triggered by Bacon has not yet touched their minds. - Jed --=====================_27599796==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I wrote:

If you could spend two or thr= ee years in a Japanese biology laboratory today, and then magically transport yourself back to 1868 in Japan when science as we know it did not exist, you would then see ENORMOUS differences between what Ed Storms does and what people did before. For one thing, they had to start by throwing away Confucian traditions of respect for the elderly and for hierarchy. . . .

There are countless other differences. In 1868 even educated Japanese people might have argued for months about questions that Storms would settle in a few hours with an experiment. They would be unwilling to do many experiments because they thought it would be immoral or it might anger the gods. This is similar to the premodern European taboo against autopsies. Also, they would constantly mix together moral and ethical arguments with technical issues. To make up an example, rather than asking whether it would be effective to mix two chemicals, they would argue whether it was right, or moral, or traditional, or Kosher (okay with the gods), or they would try to decide on the basis of chemistry that recognized only earth, air, fire and water as elements. Their were completely anthropocentric, just as Europeans were. Everything was defined by its usefulness to man, or its moral message.

You have to go back and read books written before the scientific age to get a sense of how alien it was. Jamese Burke described one:

"The Etymologies were massive, rambling and confused. Later scholars, such as the Venerable Bede, the eighth-century Abbot of Wearmouth and Jarrow in Northumberland, added to it from time to time. The encyclopedias and the other lists of 'facts' about the world to be found at the time in various books on minerals, animals and plants, presented the knowledge in what would appear to us a strange way. Everything had a hidden meaning, because, according to Augustine's teaching, nature's true meaning was not made visible by God. Nothing, therefore, was what it seemed. The 'Book of Nature' was a cryptogram that had to be decoded by the faithful.

The world described in these books was a world of shadows. Behind every object lay an 'idea', a spiritual entity that was its only real meaning. Its earthly, visible manifestation was unimportant. Everything was of dual significance: red was both a colour, and a symbol of the blood of Christ. Wood recalled the True Cross. The crab's sideways motion symbolised fraudulence. The whole of the sky was filled with signs/Astrology endowed all of nature with power to affect life in some way. But this weird, mystic interpretation of reality was driven back inside the monasteries when new invasions and the break up of Charlemagne's Empire after his death in the ninth century brought Europe into chaos once more. . . ."

"The Day The Universe Changed," p. 28.

It is astonishing that people who could make such superb steel swords and guns were mired in chaotic ignorance. A lot of people feel the Japanese must have known more than they let on, and somehow their knowledge has been lost or overlooked. (See, for example, http://coombs.anu.edu.au/SpecialProj/APM/TXT/low-m-02-96.html)  How did people who never imagined that oxygen might exist manage to make steel? The answer is: with great difficult. They spent centuries gradually developing techniques by trial and error that a modern metallurgist could work out in a  year. No wonder they were so steeped in tradition and afraid to try anything new. It was not just a case of having lots of facts at hand which you can throw together to invent new ways to make swords, the way Stephen Lawrence suggest. They had facts galore in Japan. Some of their observational sciences such as botany, in which they collected and categorized different species, was quite advanced and detailed. What they did not have was an organizing principle and a method of making sense of these facts. In 1600, Europeans were in the same mess, but *they* discovered a way out. Francis Bacon was the first to see what was missing, and how the problems might be remedied. He saw that even skilled craftsmen such as sword-makers did not understand what they were doing. In 1620 he described the system that evolved into modern science:


"Those who become practically versed in nature, are the mechanic, the mathematician, the physician, the alchymist, and the magician; but all (as matters now stand) with faint efforts and meagre success. . . .

We have no sound notions either in logic or physics; substance, quality, action, passion, and existence are not clear notions; much less, weight, levity, density, tenuity, moisture, dryness, generation, corruption, attraction, repulsion, element, matter, form, and the like. They are all fantastical and ill defined."

". . . The present method of experiment is blind and stupid. Hence men wandering and roaming without any determined course, and consulting mere chance, are hurried about to various points, and advance but little; at one time they are happy, at another their attention is distracted, and they always find that they want something further. Men generally make their experiments carelessly, and as it were in sport, making some little variation in a known experiment, and then, if they fail, they become disgusted and give up the attempt . . ."

". . . the testimony and information of the senses bears always a relation to man and not to the universe, and it is altogether a great mistake to assert that our senses are the measure of things.

To encounter these difficulties, we have everywhere sought and collected helps for the senses with laborious and faithful service, in order to supply defects and correct errors: and that not so much by means of instruments, as by experiments . . ."


Such ideas may seem obvious to us, but they were *revolutionary* and unprecedented, which is why they did not reach Japan for so long. It is a great mistake to assume that people everywhere naturally and automatically arrive at such methods. The experimental method itself was a discovery -- one that only a superlative genius could make. This breakthrough was only made once in all of history as far as anyone knows. It spread from England to Europe, and finally to the whole world. It was as difficult as the invention of writing or electric lights, or the discovery of evolution or special relativity. It was, in my opinion, the greatest intellectual triumph in human history, exceeding even Newton's "Principia" -- the other great milestone in human history.

It is not surprising this took 250 years to penetrate into Japan. Importing the technology to make guns is trivial in comparison. Bacon's mind-bending philosophical breakthrough must have seemed insane to the medieval mind. Bacon was telling society it should throw away 99% of all the knowledge civilization had accumulated. He was telling the Japanese they should toss out wisdom that had been handed down to the Emperor by the gods themselves when the world was created, and they should replace it with notions cooked by scruffy, humble, underpaid little men working with absurd-looking gadgets made of brass and glass.

Of course there are still people today, such as the denizens of sci.physics.fusion, who will argue for months, or years, about questions that Storms would settle in a few hours with an experiment. They are in the modern world but not of it. They are mired in a medieval mindset. The revolution triggered by Bacon has not yet touched their minds.

- Jed
--=====================_27599796==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 7 14:20:12 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j37LJuRX007253; Thu, 7 Apr 2005 14:20:01 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j37LJoVv007177; Thu, 7 Apr 2005 14:19:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 14:19:50 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <3rr04o$p3rf3p mxip03a.cluster1.charter.net> X-Ironport-AV: i="3.92,84,1112587200"; d="scan'208"; a="842906745:sNHT27225532" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.12 (webedge20-101-197-20030912) From: To: CC: Subject: Re: Windmills in the sky after all! Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 21:19:29 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59027 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: "Nick Palmer" > > A restrained British WOW!! This flying windmill concept > looks really exciting. I'd heard speculation about kites > in the jet stream before but there were always problems > with the weight of the tether/power line. I particularly > like that it can fly up to altitude under control and > back down for maintenance... They suggest that they are > having difficulty attracting venture capital at the > moment. They do not mention the voltage gradient that can > occur in the atmosphere on their website - anyone with > more knowledge than I care to speculate on whether this > would be a help or hindrance? Indeed! This is great stuff, Jed. I wonder if the designers have also considered the possibility of stacking several windmill generators on the same tether. I would think with advanced computer technology controlling the stability of the individual FEG lines shouldn't be too difficult to manage. Another thought that crossed my mind is, since the atmosphere would be considered a no-fly zone there's absolutely no reason I can think of why they shouldn't also construct solar collectors on the ground. Assuming some of these FEG FARMS are placed in areas where there is plenty of sun year-around that might be an optimal way to increase energy collection substantially more. Please correct me if I error here, but taking a brief look at the annual tables would appear to suggest that wind volume actually increases in the upper altitudes during the colder winter months depending on whether you're in the northern or southern latitudes of the planet. A solar collector farm huffing and puffin away on the ground might possibly help even out overall energy collection by becoming more efficient during the summer months when the above FEG farms are not working at their maximum efficiency. I'd love to know what other Vort experts would have to say about this proposal. Get out your calculators! Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 7 14:42:19 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j37Lg8RX016441; Thu, 7 Apr 2005 14:42:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j37Lg5sC016419; Thu, 7 Apr 2005 14:42:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 14:42:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=fJaa71Vbm0//DaKSNhbsy6mKcm5XjZAo4BMxkZMP5SzlZDoIsTvPeXza3WCZ7PXwNE05/Jt7l5NNzz9+b0G5xDNtexIyQObFLSfz2kE+k1oS9XFdAowZV6EjPvt6kdZvclBjr8TRgoO4KFzHm4D/+6TMR7QEfY7T1cj6GuKcRG8= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 14:42:00 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Windmills in the sky after all! In-Reply-To: <3rr04o$p3rf3p mxip03a.cluster1.charter.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 References: <3rr04o$p3rf3p mxip03a.cluster1.charter.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j37Lg0RX016357 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59028 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: well, how big are we talking for the kites? if not too big, you could always move them during seasonal changes, also. have a few farms with tethers, move the actual units to the better area. just a thought. (and, if we ever got a beanstalk off the ground, we could fly a few off it.) On Apr 7, 2005 2:19 PM, orionworks charter.net wrote: > > From: "Nick Palmer" > > > > A restrained British WOW!! This flying windmill concept > > looks really exciting. I'd heard speculation about kites > > in the jet stream before but there were always problems > > with the weight of the tether/power line. I particularly > > like that it can fly up to altitude under control and > > back down for maintenance... They suggest that they are > > having difficulty attracting venture capital at the > > moment. They do not mention the voltage gradient that can > > occur in the atmosphere on their website - anyone with > > more knowledge than I care to speculate on whether this > > would be a help or hindrance? > > Indeed! > > This is great stuff, Jed. > > I wonder if the designers have also considered the possibility of stacking several windmill generators on the same tether. I would think with advanced computer technology controlling the stability of the individual FEG lines shouldn't be too difficult to manage. > > Another thought that crossed my mind is, since the atmosphere would be considered a no-fly zone there's absolutely no reason I can think of why they shouldn't also construct solar collectors on the ground. Assuming some of these FEG FARMS are placed in areas where there is plenty of sun year-around that might be an optimal way to increase energy collection substantially more. > > Please correct me if I error here, but taking a brief look at the annual tables would appear to suggest that wind volume actually increases in the upper altitudes during the colder winter months depending on whether you're in the northern or southern latitudes of the planet. A solar collector farm huffing and puffin away on the ground might possibly help even out overall energy collection by becoming more efficient during the summer months when the above FEG farms are not working at their maximum efficiency. > > I'd love to know what other Vort experts would have to say about this proposal. Get out your calculators! > > Regards, > > Steven Vincent Johnson > www.OrionWorks.com > > -- "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 7 14:56:27 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j37LuCRX023950; Thu, 7 Apr 2005 14:56:16 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j37Lu7HA023884; Thu, 7 Apr 2005 14:56:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 14:56:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050407175133.02cea3f8 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2005 17:55:47 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Windmills in the sky after all! In-Reply-To: References: <3rr04o$p3rf3p mxip03a.cluster1.charter.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59029 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: leaking pen wrote: >well, how big are we talking for the kites? if not too big, you could >always move them during seasonal changes, also. I do not know how big they are, but I am sure they are light or they would not fly up in the air in the first place. All aircraft are made of lightweight materials. It should not be difficult to make them modular so they can be disassembled and shipped from one location to another. Military pilotless drone aircraft are like this. Incidentally, there are now 700 of these things flying in Iraq and Afghanistan, up from a few dozen four years ago. See: http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/05/international/middleeast/05predator.html - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 7 15:02:06 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j37M1pRX026642; Thu, 7 Apr 2005 15:01:55 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j37M1k4u026601; Thu, 7 Apr 2005 15:01:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 15:01:46 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) In-Reply-To: <200504072110.j37LAmwa003344 ultra5.eskimo.com> References: <200504072110.j37LAmwa003344 ultra5.eskimo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Message-Id: <4eb14acbc45f711254a9d98ec94adbd2 byu.edu> From: John Robertson Subject: Re: vortex-digest Digest V2005 #172 Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 16:01:31 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j37M1WRX026488 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59030 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > > I disagree with the implicit assertion here that the progress made > from year -10,000 to year +1600 was made by religion or superstition, > and that progress since then was made with a different scheme. > > I did not mean that. Let me clarify: progress was made despite > religion and superstition. It was made in the thrall of these > institutions. > Dang! I was going to stop talking. Jed by his own admission might have had a more thorough education than the most of the rest of us, but someone who knows about the writings of the ancient Catholic Churchmen -- he actually read them -- has a different attitude than Jed's regarding the Catholic Church. Look what great good the Catholic Church did for our intellectual history and our science. Let it be said that good ideas are timeless -- forgotten perhaps, but when resurrected, of inestimable value if we're willing to learn. As a linguist, I can say that the vocabulary of logic these men introduced have been and still are of incalculable value to us. It is only through symbols that we are able to approach the real. Peirce: (Collected papers)1.33. In the slight importance they attached to a brilliant theory, the schoolmen also resembled modern scientific men, who cannot be comprehended in this respect at all by men not scientific. The followers of Herbert Spencer, for example, cannot comprehend why scientific men place Darwin so infinitely above Spencer, since the theories of the latter are so much grander and more comprehensive. They cannot understand that it is not the sublimity of Darwin's theories which makes him admired by men of science, but that it is rather his minute, systematic, extensive, strict, scientific researches which have given his theories a more favorable reception—theories which in themselves would barely command scientific respect. And this misunderstanding belongs to all those metaphysicians who fancy themselves men of science on account of their metaphysics. This same scientific spirit has been equally misunderstood as it is found in the schoolmen. They have been above all things found fault with because they do not write a literary style and do not "study in a literary spirit." The men who make this objection cannot possibly comprehend the real merits of modern science. If the words quidditas, entitas, and haecceitas are to excite our disgust, what shall we say of the Latin of the botanists, and the style of any technically scientific work? As for that phrase "studying in a literary spirit" it is impossible to express how nauseating it is to any scientific man, yes even to the scientific linguist. But above all things it is the searching thoroughness of the schoolmen which affiliates them with men of science and separates them, world-wide, from modern so-called philosophers. The thoroughness I allude to consists in this, that in adopting any theory, they go about everywhere, they devote their whole energies and lives in putting it to tests bona fide—not such as shall merely add a new spangle to the glitter of their proofs but such as shall really go toward satisfying their restless insatiable impulse to put their opinions to the test. Having a theory, they must apply it to every subject and to every branch of every subject to see whether it produces a result in accordance with the only criteria they were able to apply—the truth of the Catholic faith and the teaching of the Prince of Philosophers [Read Aristotle]. Peirce: The men of that time did fully believe and did think that, for the sake of giving themselves up absolutely to their great task of building or of writing, it was well worth while to resign all the joys of life. Think of the spirit in which Duns Scotus must have worked, who wrote his thirteen volumes in folio, in a style as condensed as the most condensed parts of Aristotle, before the age of thirty-four. Nothing is more striking in either of the great intellectual products of that age, than the complete absence of self-conceit on the part of the artist or philosopher. That anything of value can be added to his sacred and catholic work by its having the smack of individuality about it, is what he has never conceived. His work is not designed to embody his ideas, but the universal truth; there will not be one thing in it however minute, for which you will not find that he has his authority; and whatever originality emerges is of that inborn kind which so saturates a man that he cannot himself perceive it. The individual feels his own worthlessness in comparison with his task, and does not dare to introduce his vanity into the doing of it. Then there is no machine-work, no unthinking repetition about the thing. Every part is worked out for itself as a separate problem, no matter how analogous it may be in general to another part. And no matter how small and hidden a detail may be, it has been conscientiously studied, as though it were intended for the eye of God. Allied to this character is a detestation of antithesis or the studied balancing of one thing against another, and of a too geometrical grouping, - a hatred of posing which is as much a moral trait as the others. Finally, there is nothing in which the scholastic philosophy and the Gothic architecture resemble one another more than in the gradually increasing sense of immensity which impresses the mind of the student as he learns to appreciate the real dimensions and cost of each. It is very unfortunate that the thirteenth, fourteenth, and fifteenth centuries should, under the name of Middle Ages, be confounded with others, which they are in every respect as unlike as the Renaissance is from modern times. In the history of logic, the break between the twelfth and thirteenth centuries is so great that only one author of the former age is ever quoted in the latter. If this is to be attributed to the fuller acquaintance with the works of Aristotle, to what, we would ask, is this profounder study itself to be attributed, since it is now known that the knowledge of those works was not imported from the Arabs? The thirteenth century was realistic, but the question concerning universals was not as much agitated as several others. Until about the end of the century, scholasticism was somewhat vague, immature, and unconscious of its own power. Its greatest glory was in the first half of the fourteenth century. Then Duns Scotus,2 a Briton (for whether Scotch, Irish, or English is disputed), first stated the realistic position consistently, and developed it with great fulness and applied it to all the different questions which depend upon it. His theory of "formalities" was the subtlest, except perhaps Hegel's logic, ever broached, and he was separated from nominalism only by the division of a hair. It is not therefore surprising that the nominalistic position was soon adopted by several writers, especially by the celebrated William of Ockam, who took the lead of this party by the thoroughgoing and masterly way in which he treated the theory and combined it with a then rather recent but now forgotten addition to the doctrine of logical terms. With Ockam, who died in 1347, scholasticism may be said to have culminated. After him the scholastic philosophy showed a tendency to separate itself from the religious element which alone could dignify it, and sunk first into extreme formalism and fancifulness, and then into the merited contempt of all men; just as the Gothic architecture had a very similar fate, at about the same time, and for much the same reasons. Peirce: 5.360. To Roger Bacon, that remarkable mind who in the middle of the thirteenth century was almost a scientific man, the schoolmen's conception of reasoning appeared only an obstacle to truth. He saw that experience alone teaches anything a proposition which to us seems easy to understand, because a distinct conception of experience has been handed down to us from former generations; which to him likewise™ seemed perfectly clear, because its difficulties had not yet unfolded themselves. Of all kinds of experience, the best, he thought, was interior illumination, which teaches many things about Nature which the external senses could never discover, such as the transubstantiation of bread. 5.361. Four centuries later, the more celebrated Bacon, in the first book of his Novum Organum, gave his clear account of experience as something which must be open to verification and reëxamination. But, superior as Lord Bacon's conception is to earlier notions, a modem reader who is not in awe of his grandiloquence is chiefly struck by the inadequacy of his view of scientific procedure. That we have only to make some crude experiments, to draw up briefs of the results in certain blank forms, to go through these by rule, checking off everything disproved and setting down the alternatives, and that thus in a few years physical science would be finished up what an idea! "He wrote on science like a Lord Chancellor,"1 indeed, as Harvey, a genuine man of science said. > > It wasn't completely one-sided. As I noted earlier Christianity and > other moral philosophies made many vital contributions to the > burgeoning scientific method, such as individualism. Good grief. It was their submission to the greater good -- namely the discovery of truth -- that prompted their passion for their search for truth. These men were some of the greatest logicians and thinker this world has ever produced. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 7 16:25:58 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j37NPpJ2002034; Thu, 7 Apr 2005 16:25:51 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j37NPl8X002013; Thu, 7 Apr 2005 16:25:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 16:25:47 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050407184824.02cbd170 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2005 19:25:35 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: vortex-digest Digest V2005 #172 In-Reply-To: <4eb14acbc45f711254a9d98ec94adbd2 byu.edu> References: <200504072110.j37LAmwa003344 ultra5.eskimo.com> <4eb14acbc45f711254a9d98ec94adbd2 byu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_35757421==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: <5jULY.A.af.7FcVCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59031 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_35757421==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed John Robertson wrote: >> It wasn't completely one-sided. As I noted earlier Christianity and >> other moral philosophies made many vital contributions to the burgeoning >> scientific method, such as individualism. >Good grief. It was their submission to the greater good -- namely the >discovery of truth -- that prompted their passion for their search for >truth. These men were some of the greatest logicians and thinker this >world has ever produced. I agree they were great thinkers, and they helped set the stage for the discovery of the scientific method, but they did make that discovery. Roger Bacon came close, but he failed. Of course Francis Bacon's version of the scientific method was crude and incomplete in many ways. Someone always drags out the quote about "He wrote on science like a Lord Chancellor." Of course he did; he *was* a Lord Chancellor. What would you expect? I write like a programmer. You have to look beyond style and background. As for their motivation, it makes no difference in the end. Their motivation was discovery of truth. Newton's primary motivation was the glorification of God. The people who introduced science into Japan mainly wanted to build battleships to blow up Adm. Perry's U.S. Navy fleet, which sailed into their harbor and threatened to bombard their capital. Their inspiration was heavy artillery. Their goal was national survival. But to achieve this they had to import the scientific method and all that went with it, and this ultimately subverted and destroyed their traditional society and erased their religion. They hoped to "combine Eastern ethics with Western technology," but they failed -- because it cannot be done. When you learn to make Western technology, you learn the philosophy and worldview along with it. (You can preserve your own culture to some extent if all you want to do is purchase the stuff off-the-shelf and use it in ignorance.) Newton's work ultimately led to the downfall of his religion within science, and the domination of science by atheists today. I am sure that outcome would have horrified him, as much as it would have gratified Darwin. Some scientists can hold both systems in mind at the same time, the way you can. But most find the two worldviews contradictory. I know that the great medieval philosophers made important contributions to the intellectual framework of science, but I question whether this was necessary. Other philosophies might have done the job. In a parallel universe, I think it is likely that eventually the Japanese would have invented the scientific method. Their philosophical framework would have been Confucianism and Buddhism. These philosophies were rigorous and would have been good training grounds. The Japanese knew nothing of the European scholastic traditions, and only a little about Aristotle and the other Greeks. Of course the science they would have invented would have been very different from what emerged from Europe. In some ways it would have been superior: Buddhism thinking is much more sensible and realistic than Christian philosophy in some ways, and it has informed the thinking of many good Japanese scientists. There would have been no opposition to replacing the earth-centered anthropocentric viewpoint, or to evolution. These changes took a long time to sink in in the West because they met with religious opposition, but they were accepted immediately by Buddhist philosophers in the 19th century. Very few religious Japanese people express reservations about them today, any more than American religious people oppose Ohm's law. Even though this parallel-universe Asian version of science would have been quite different at the outset, eventually it would have evolved into something similar to what we have today. - Jed --=====================_35757421==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable John Robertson wrote:

 It wasn't completely one-sided. As I noted earlier Christianity and other moral philosophies made many vital contributions to the burgeoning scientific method, such as individualism.
Good grief. It was their submission to the greater good -- namely the discovery of truth -- that prompted their passion for their search for truth. These men were some of the greatest logicians and thinker this world has ever produced.

I agree they were great thinkers, and they helped set the stage for the discovery of the scientific method, but they did make that discovery. Roger Bacon came close, but he failed. Of course Francis Bacon's version of the scientific method was crude and incomplete in many ways. Someone always drags out the quote about "He wrote on science like a Lord Chancellor." Of course he did; he *was* a Lord Chancellor. What would you expect? I write like a programmer. You have to look beyond style and background.

As for their motivation, it makes no difference in the end. Their motivation was discovery of truth. Newton's primary motivation was the glorification of God. The people who introduced science into Japan mainly wanted to build battleships to blow up Adm. Perry's U.S. Navy fleet, which sailed into their harbor and threatened to bombard their capital. Their inspiration was heavy artillery. Their goal was national survival. But to achieve this they had to import the scientific method and all that went with it, and this ultimately subverted and destroyed their traditional society and erased their religion. They hoped to "combine Eastern ethics with Western technology," but they failed -- because it cannot be done. When you learn to make Western technology, you learn the philosophy and worldview along with it. (You can preserve your own culture to some extent if all you want to do is purchase the stuff off-the-shelf and use it in ignorance.) Newton's work ultimately led to the downfall of his religion within science, and the domination of science by atheists today. I am sure that outcome would have horrified him, as much as it would have gratified Darwin. Some scientists can hold both systems in mind at the same time, the way you can. But most find the two worldviews contradictory.

I know that the great medieval philosophers made important contributions to the intellectual framework of science, but I question whether this was necessary. Other philosophies might have done the job. In a parallel universe, I think it is likely that eventually the Japanese would have invented the scientific method. Their philosophical framework would have been Confucianism and Buddhism. These philosophies were rigorous and would have been good training grounds. The Japanese knew nothing of the European scholastic traditions, and only a little about Aristotle and the other Greeks. Of course the science they would have invented would have been very different from what emerged from Europe. In some ways it would have been superior: Buddhism thinking is much more sensible and realistic than Christian philosophy in some ways, and it has informed the thinking of many good Japanese scientists. There would have been no opposition to replacing the earth-centered anthropocentric viewpoint, or to evolution. These changes took a long time to sink in in the West because they met with religious opposition, but they were accepted immediately by Buddhist philosophers in the 19th century. Very few religious Japanese people express reservations about them today, any more than American religious people oppose Ohm's law.

Even though this parallel-universe Asian version of science would have been quite different at the outset, eventually it would have evolved into something similar to what we have today.

- Jed
 --=====================_35757421==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 7 17:31:04 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j380Uuk6024994; Thu, 7 Apr 2005 17:31:00 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j380Uqmk024962; Thu, 7 Apr 2005 17:30:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 17:30:52 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=OdIgh+U5r/Z/OC2jmyftiwIkdBn/ioyDA35P3+FHYIuUDQCp89FjFG3SvsfkQdSo4F5FowzL3hezJyULbbryXlPrShFL/GzquIHV2sRWkM05jq9fefWVFgUU9REQnR8GJJnPFtzurHG1l5jB8WvcA5jj9d0BVwnflWYXtGFNUH0= ; Message-ID: <20050408003044.96121.qmail web51701.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 17:30:43 -0700 (PDT) From: Terry Blanton Subject: Re: Windmills in the sky after all! To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: 6667 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59032 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- orionworks charter.net wrote: > I'd love to know what other Vort experts would have > to say about this proposal. I'm no expert; but, there are some really exotic proposals: http://alt-e.blogspot.com/2004/12/wind-power-laddermills-high-altitude.html Would you like insurance? (WGUMCD) __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 7 17:48:06 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j380lwk6031505; Thu, 7 Apr 2005 17:47:58 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j380lqPK031461; Thu, 7 Apr 2005 17:47:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 17:47:52 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=HseJbmB0XV+fR8+6Iam/ek/4MSENzeaARUoxs9K8lQQ8Iez+DOOYlq/bKJ9RIer5gdnALmeq30L4UCoV85mg9LBGRz2P77GOdhNloilRk1Dm7R7qfujXw6iPWD/ZDPeX9OG0CDyx1SY6gy/cRbB4ntIaMs1t9H7WiV/xYgYAaZA= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 17:47:45 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Windmills in the sky after all! In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050407175133.02cea3f8 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 References: <3rr04o$p3rf3p mxip03a.cluster1.charter.net> <6.2.0.14.2.20050407175133.02cea3f8 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j380lok6031417 Resent-Message-ID: <0xSTCB.A.irH.4SdVCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59033 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: the article is off. those that we OWN are up from a dozen four years ago to several hundred. there is one in afghanistan, and 6 in iraq at last count, becuase teh training program was scrapped for them by cheney 3 years back. On Apr 7, 2005 2:55 PM, Jed Rothwell wrote: > leaking pen wrote: > > >well, how big are we talking for the kites? if not too big, you could > >always move them during seasonal changes, also. > > I do not know how big they are, but I am sure they are light or they would > not fly up in the air in the first place. All aircraft are made of > lightweight materials. > > It should not be difficult to make them modular so they can be disassembled > and shipped from one location to another. Military pilotless drone aircraft > are like this. Incidentally, there are now 700 of these things flying in > Iraq and Afghanistan, up from a few dozen four years ago. See: > > http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/05/international/middleeast/05predator.html > > - Jed > > -- "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 7 17:57:03 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j380uuk6002696; Thu, 7 Apr 2005 17:56:56 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j380usRT002677; Thu, 7 Apr 2005 17:56:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 17:56:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=AZ2zc1jsvwKNo+4voLIld+048I2bFxrGSRUci/F6Wc2evagq0jtRm+xUofNuCZZbPcwCepgz+bRGHyLA3fgReiPx3dx8tkSjPZg0XJjhnw0DqMpEz8GaKozUpNwygQ+t5rhyke4UBaf56gAKts96kABlK+0lJV4kGs8Z2ZI3HLU= ; Message-ID: <20050408005647.57631.qmail web51708.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 17:56:47 -0700 (PDT) From: Terry Blanton Subject: Re: vortex-digest Digest V2005 #172 To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <4eb14acbc45f711254a9d98ec94adbd2 byu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59034 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- John Robertson wrote: > Dang! I was going to stop talking. You *could* reconsider. > Look what great good > the Catholic Church > did for our intellectual history and our science. I gather 'byu' is 'Brigham Young University', n'est-ce pas? The HRCC is likely the reason the "dark ages" are so named. They burned more books than the Nazi's and Heinlein's Firemen combined. I don't know why this author wishes to remain anon., but I think his words deserve consideration: "By the end of the 5th century A.D. when the Christian rulers had taken command, they abolished the study of the main disciplines, including Philosophy, Mathematics, Medicine, and Geography. Lactantius forbad Christians to study astronomy. It was Pope Gregory the Great who denounced all secular education and forbad the reading of the Bible under threat of punishment of death. He too joined in the book burning and destroyed at the Palatine Apollo. Any new opinion or any knowledge with which the church did not agree was called heretical and devilish and those who had this knowledge or opinion were hounded and slaughtered. The years were marked by gross vandalism and destruction. Theodosius burnt the greatest collection of knowledge that the Ancient World could probably produce - The Library at Alexandria. As if the church had achieved some marvelous cleansing, St. John Chrysostom gloated as the church destroyed everything it could get its hands on and said: "Every trace of the old philosophy and literature of the ancient world has vanished from the face of the earth". Eupanius, a historian and guardian of the Eleusinian Mysteries, is quoted as saying the Roman Empire was being overwhelmed by a "fabulous and formless darkness (the evil pseudo-Christian philosophy) mastering the loveliness of the world." The darkness was all the work of the so-called new anti-Gnostic Christian church. It is worth repeating that the Roman Empire, contrary to what the church historians have written, did no persecute religious minorities. In fact, all deities were incorporated and all religious people were willing to co-exist with the Empire except for the so-called Christians. By 382 AD the church had officially declared that any opposition to its own Creed in favor of others, must be punished by the Death Penalty. But of course the history of those early years has been distorted by church historians. Many of those so-called Christians were criminals, vagabonds and trouble-makers and they were prosecuted by the Roman Authorities, not for their religion, but for civil crimes. There were guilty of vandalism and arson when they tried to burn Rome. In spite of the overwhelming evidence that the church brought all knowledge and the process of learning to a halt, one still often hears the excuse erroneously given by apologist for the church that if it was not for the church, all knowledge would be lost completely. This is completely opposite to the facts. The Church saves what suited its purpose and destroyed the everything else it could get its hands on. Sure it disseminated Christian Art, architecture, music and letters (of perverted history) but all else was destroyed. And most of this dissemination was for self-aggrandizement. What possible spiritual benefit can there be in the treasures of the Vatican? Other than that which they may have kept and are denying the world of, about the ancient ways, absolutely nothing! Even many of the so-called Pagan Temples were converted to Christian ones by simply adding St. in front of the deities' name, as occurred at the shrine of Sophia (the Wisdom of the Divine Mother Goddess) which became St. Sophia. The church closed the minds of the people and stifled education. And it was for this reason that any part of Europe in which it had some controlling influence, fell into ruin. The intelligentsia were persecuted by the illiterate. The only other record of history at that time was the inaccurate recordings of balladeers, and they too would be cautious of their words for the ears of the church were everywhere. There is no scientific testing of theories for theological societies prevented this. Those like Roger Bacon who tried to introduce scientific methods suffered greatly. They paid a heavy price. Unfortunately, the oppression was such that many of the so-called Christianized countries never recovered from the church's tyranny. For example, even today, Spain and Italy are severely repressed by the church Authority. And many people in the poorer parts of these countries are still frightened to speak openly against the church who they fear more than they fear the Mafia. The Dark Age mentality has continued in the church from the earlier times when the church took control. And so it is that in 1562 when the missionaries reached the Mayas at Yucatan, the first thing they did was burned the books they found. It was about this time that the countries involved in the Reformation became more educated directly as a result of the steps they took to decease the church's power. Initially, the church had set out not to educate laymen so that it could control the people better. But as time went on, of course, because of no advances in knowledge were made, even the clergy became extremely ignorant. Temples of other Creed were taken over by force and books and doctrines of those other beliefs systems were destroyed and supplanted by the so-called Christian ones. The church became obsessed with aesthetic Monotheism and tried to eradicate all rudiments of other belief systems. Ignorance thrived, so much so that Lactantius was able to prove to the ignorant masses by quoting the Bible, that the world was flat and, or course, there was great opposition to anyone who contradicted this. The people of the ancient world knew the world was round. In fact, the Hindus drew it as an egg. The Babylonians, Chaldeans, and Greeks had worked out its circumference and distance from other heavenly bodies and many other things, but all this knowledge was destroyed. The principles of science and the shape of the earth and astronomy needed to be rediscovered many centuries later In spite of the Christian Church. Men of Science not only had to fight the veils of ignorance but also the church, the so-called Holy Mother which defended the ignorance desperately. As the list of those scientific and intellectual pioneers who were burned at the stake shows, for a long, long time they and knowledge, including science, came off second best. Enlightenment in any field usually meant being burned at the stake if one dared to speak up. It was mainly by political curtailment of the church's power by governments and dictators such as Napoleon, and by literally kicking out groups like the Jesuits and other bigoted, ignorant fanatics, that countries began to awaken. Others sought their spiritual freedom in the schismatic countries and the New World. Here are examples of those burned at the stake and of government interventions to curtail the rapaciousness and evil of the church and its efforts to maintain ignorance. 1498 Savonarola burned at the stake in Florence (b.1452) 1535 Study of Canon Law forbidden in Cambridge 1570 Calvinist, Lutherans, and Moravian Brothers of Poland ally against Jesuits 1583 Giordano Bruno publishes his 'On the Infinite Universe and Worlds'. 1594 Giordano Bruno seized by the Vatican for supporting Copernicus theory of the universe. 1600 Giordano Bruno burned as a heretic in Rome 1609 The Emperor Rudolf II permits freedom of religion in Bohemia. 1633 Galileo forced by the Inquisition to renounce the theories of Copernicus 1716 Christian religious teaching prohibited in China. 1719 Jesuits expelled from Russia 1751 Powers of the Portuguese Inquisition curtailed by government. 1759 Expulsion of Jesuits from Portugal. 1767 Jesuits expelled from Spain, Parma, and the Two Sicilies. 1772 Inquisition abolished in France 1808 Napoleon abolishes the Inquisition in Spain and Italy 1814 Pope Pius VII returns to Rome and restores the Inquisition. 1872 Jesuits expelled from Germany 1875 Religious orders abolished in Prussia 1879 Anti-Jesuit laws introduced in France. 1904 Church and State separated in France 1919 Church and State separated in Germany 1950 Evangelical HUMANAI GENERIS of Pius XII condemned various intellectual tendencies in the Catholic Church. As we know, Galileo and Christopher Columbus and many others were publicly harassed and persecuted for contradicting the Falsehoods of the Bible. And to make sure about its monopoly on knowledge, the church banned not only Galileo's work, but Kepler's and Copernicus' as well. The ignorance that resulted gave the church more and more power, so much so that it was able to accumulate great wealth. However, there were many pockets of resistance to it and many people realized the Truth of things as they discovered Gnosticism. Many others objected to the church's despotism and when truthful and enlightening knowledge from the outside the so-called Christian Church filtered in. And this enlightening knowledge, together with self-realization is what sparked off the Renaissance. In 1460 Leonardo of Pistoia brought the Greek manuscript of the Gnostic Corpus Hermeticum to Florence from Macedonia. And in 1471 the first printed edition of Ficino's Latin translation of the Divine Pymander appeared. But the renaissance however, there was the horrendous Inquisition. This consisted of a reign of terror through many centuries and it was to force the populace to accept a church which it did not want. And as it is often now amusingly mocked, this church had only one commandment - "Bring hither the money!" Many spoke out against the church. Frere Ryamond Jean said: "The church which governs us is symbolized by the Great Whore of the Apocalypse who persecutes the poor and the ministers of Christ." You can guess how ended up - Burned Alive! Even among its own ranks the church had dissenters and the members of the Franciscan splinter group called the Fraticelli, were outspoken in calling the Pope the Antichrist. They could see through the church's nefarious activities. Unfortunately for them, they paid the price the church asked for their clear vision, and they were all slaughtered by Pope Martin the Fifth. There was public disgust at the Church's avarice during the time of the Inquisition and there was also a growing suspicion of its evil practices. This suspicion was sparked by Gnostic philosophies which came from the east and these Gnostic Philosophies revealed the spurious claims of the myths that the church put forward. Again they queried the need for Salvation, the story of the Garden of Eden, the Fall of Man, the Taint of Original Sin, Heaven and Hell, the Virgin birth, and so on. The Gnostics said boldly in public that these were myths. In its attempt to distort the Truth and conceal its exposure, the church hierarchy mendaciously likened the spread of truth to a social cancer which had to be stopped at all costs. Apart from destroying these dissenters, the Inquisition can be described, as others have in the past, as the most elaborate extortion racket ever devised, primarily developed to give the church profit while it eradicated people against whom it could not win arguments about religious philosophy. In the words of Jules Henry: "Organized Religion which likes to fancy itself the Mother of Compassion long ago lost its right to claim that by its organized support of organized cruelty." The promise of a place in Heaven through its intercession for the people was what enabled the church to brainwash them into accepting all the suffering and misery which in effect it helped inflict on them. What a miserably evil scheme it was. What a perfect way to make sure that, not only would they give up their money to the church, but also that they would accept all the exploitations they would experience, and not fight back nor try to awaken to the Truth of things. The church told them that they could go to Heaven by using its unique sacraments (most of which it had really copied from the Mithraic rites and other religious practices) and that they could shorten relatives' and their own eventual stay in Purgatory by paying Indulgences to the Church. It convinced people to toe the line. Otherwise it would send them to Hell by refusing to absolve them of their sins, by withholding so-called indispensable sacraments and by excommunicating them. Hence, it manipulated people's live to such a degree that they were kept repressed and totally in the darkness. This fantasy of a Heavenly reward if people did what they were told by the church was not pushed as much, or course, as the fear of eternal damnation in Hell. And this fear engendered much guilt and destroyed many lives, for many could not cope with the fear adequately. Can you think of anything more cruel than this? In fact, even today the percentage of mentally ill Catholics, whose church has thrived on this fear approach, is greater than in the community at large. But, In spite the fact that this so-called Christian doctrine preached love, tolerance and non-violence for the sake of attaining a Heavenly abode on the one hand, and on the other hand people were exhorted to kill and maim when the church said so, otherwise they too would be excommunicated, burned at the stake and supposedly punished in Hell forever. 1521 Pope Leo X, via a papal bull, ordered the Venetian Doge and the Venetian Senate to execute heretics even though the Doge and Senate opposed the executions. This shows the power the papacy had! And apart from destroying all other modes of learning except its own spurious doctrines, which it made up as it went along in every era, the church's presence since shortly after the death of Jesus has meant fear, hatred, intolerance, oppression, and the most inhuman acts of barbarism and violence. If the atrocities of the church were the result of one or two or even a few who ruled the church, one would expect its bellicosity to be a passing phase. But the fact that it not only persisted but also became its most salient characteristic suggests that the very essence driving the church is evil and exploitative, and indeed it is. Metaphysics aside, the real historical facts leave us with no other conclusion. If the church was sincere, would it not give back the lands and wealth that it stole from the people? Would it not acknowledge its own mistakes and not only publicly confess this but perform restitutions as well? Like all those of an evil essence, the church never recants. If the church was really the Holy Mother, would it not care for its people first and foremost with total disregard for its own pomposity, arrogance and self-aggrandizement? One of the excuses given by some of the clergy for the wealth and extravagance displayed by the churches is that nothing is too good for God. But one must ask What does God care for temporal things? What does HE care or a gold chalice when HIS people go hungry? * Where is the love? * Where is the tolerance? * Where is the care to be found in the church? Certainly NOT in its past history Many times people with Gnostic knowledge confronted the church and its clergy. For example, the horrors of the plagues that Europe suffered revived the Gnostic opinions of an evil demigod controlling the plane and causing the scourges on purpose. But the church, instead of confronting this information, looked for scapegoats and found the Hebrews. It encouraged the persecution of the Jews to divert attention from that developing idea that the terrible plagues which killed half of Europe's population, were caused by a malicious god. Killing the Jews vented the people's anger which they had against the clergy, many of whose members cowardly deserted plague stricken areas. And it is documented that the Great Plagues of the 14th Century were blamed on the Jews who were said to have caused this pestilence by poisoning the wells and streams. Each plague led to a pogrom. They were persecuted everywhere. In France, Spain, Bavaria, Palestine and in Cologne there are explicit details of the most wanton atrocities against them. The Inquisitors in Spain used the excuse of the plagues to expel the Jews and take their property which was their real aim. In 1492 the year of Columbus' discovery of the New World, by order of the Inquisitor-general Torquemada, Spanish Jews were given three months to accept Christianity or leave the country. The church claimed it was legitimate to persecute and seize the property of the Jews and anyone how it thought heretical and the official church policy is quoted as stating that - "No illegitimate violence is being done to Jews, infidels and heretics because these people have no rights" So much for the Brotherhood of Man and Brotherly Love. And of course the Inquisitors were able to point to anyone and say they were heretics, without fear of contradiction, for no one accused by them ever escaped punishment or was acquitted. This hatred of the Jews extended even further so that St. Bernard is quoted as saying "It would be an insult to Christ is the offspring of a Jew occupied the throne of Peter." How easily he and the church forgot the race of which Jesus was born. Apart from the diverse beliefs in doctrine which allowed the church to persecute the Gnostics, the Gnostics separated from the Christian church because they saw it hopelessly materialistic. >From the earliest days the Gnostics had declared that the God of the new (non-Jesus following) Christian church was evil, and that Resurrection of the flesh was a lie. And yet Tertullian, one of the founding church fathers had said that the Resurrection simply had to be believed because it was so absurd! As early as 190 A.D., it was declared that anyone who denied the resurrection was a heretic. The Gnostics also claimed that Baptism, as the church presented it, was useless and this the church would not tolerate. Throughout the ages the church changed its doctrine to suit the times. It had no hard and fast rules about God and Divinity. I will cite two examples of past cases: * The church tolerated Abortion until 1869 when it decided that the soul entered the body of the fetus at concept. Before then, the church did not disapprove of abortion saying that the fetus was soulless until the obstetrical phenomenon of "Quickening". In other words, it taught there was no soul until the fifth month. What hypocrisy there is in its change of policy of respect for the unborn child and in its excuse of the earlier folly by saying God had erred in not informing the church about the correct time of the soul's entry into the fetus. * The second example is the one of Mesmer. When Mesmer in 1840 demonstrated that alteration of the state of consciousness was able to cure his subject of many psychosomatic diseased, the Vatican approved. But by 1847 it was reported that many subjects under such changed states of consciousness were having religious (i.e. spiritual) experiences, rediscovering their clairvoyance and other psychic powers which resulted in prophetic uttering. Immediately, the church declared mesmerism heretical and in 1856 an encyclical letter warned that Mesmerism was a dangerous error. Apart from the turn of face, which demonstrates that the church hierarchy is NOT in contact with the Higher, Purer realms which provide the truth at all, it is another example of the church refusing to admit that spiritual illumination can come from within the person. In past times it wanted full control and wanted to prevent connection of people to their Higher Consciousness. And so it was that Luther questioned whether the church had such power in Heaven. The church was able to bribe many to do it dirty work. For example, warriors in the Crusades were promised indulgences regardless of crimes they committed in those Crusades or would commit in future. Was such an dispensation not the obvious assumption of a power only God could have? Where did the church draw the line and mark where its power ended? Nowhere...it declared itself omnipotent. The Crusades The Crusades to the Holy Land were not about liberating Holy Places at all. There were commercial enterprises to break into the Middle East and capture Arab trade which had been bypassing the very greedy 'holy?' Roman Empire for some time. The First Crusade of 1095 was a bloodbath! The Crusaders killed Jews, Greeks, Turks, etc..., as they went Eastward. Eventually local armies were forced to be called to repel them and kill the Crusaders. Another act of barbarism occurred in 1098 when the Crusaders massacred the entire population of Jerusalem. Many Jews were burnt alive in the synagogues. In 1204 they sacked Constantinople. These were acts of gross vandalism rather than the liberation for a Christian cause. Even Richard the Lionhearted, acting for the church, violated his Truce and slaughtered all his hostages. And yet even today he is looked upon as a 'Goody'. Europe was Christianized by force. All pagan communities who did not pay the Papacy were attacked. Other Gods were defamed and the church became more and more fanatical in its dictatorial policies. It was groups such as the Bogomils, the Cathars, the Albigensians who called the church the synagogue of Satan. They correctly condemned the worship of images, denied the power of the sacraments which the church could make up, read the bible for themselves and called Jehovah a demon. And so it was the church instigated the Crusades against the Albigensians in 1209 in which half the population of those districts was exterminated with the famous quote "Kill them all, the Lord knows his own." These Crusades, it is now realized by historians, probably destroyed the most advanced population of Europe and they led further into the Inquisitions. Apologist defend the Church by saying he had to defend herself. But what danger was there in the thoughts of others that induced it to go to such extremes? The answer is this: The church was fearful of the DANGER OF EXPOSURE which came from the Truth the Gnostics uttered." __________________________________ Yahoo! Messenger Show us what our next emoticon should look like. Join the fun. http://www.advision.webevents.yahoo.com/emoticontest From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 7 18:55:03 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j381srk6030990; Thu, 7 Apr 2005 18:54:54 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j381slKB030955; Thu, 7 Apr 2005 18:54:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 18:54:47 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=sQkGYyPM5jioOY325Qh2cmnaFxHrGEY0BZbaCQdzm5nzZ8xxmal5EgCahfQXo/XNYELM/l8KvNxkWBXC8QoyD1nwXckrBo/UGoXg044GvwF71djdwe4f5KOB2LY7M6DPZRlcJwsYTKbUPfeZVPEKkn6xb0YPdMRnkseD70P1I4c= ; Message-ID: <20050408015439.81286.qmail web51706.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 18:54:39 -0700 (PDT) From: Terry Blanton Subject: Re: vortex-digest Digest V2005 #172 To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <4eb14acbc45f711254a9d98ec94adbd2 byu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59035 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- John Robertson wrote: > As a > linguist, A "cunning" one at that. (Sorry, I couldn't resist after all this talk about sex. ) http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22cunning+linguist%22&btnG=Google+Search __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 7 20:25:31 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j383PLYM027916; Thu, 7 Apr 2005 20:25:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j383PIYR027894; Thu, 7 Apr 2005 20:25:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 20:25:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "John Steck" To: Subject: RE: vortex-digest Digest V2005 #166 Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 22:27:49 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <04aca4a190d812e8691df33fd1de7c9f byu.edu> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 Resent-Message-ID: <4jmOc.A.yzG.dmfVCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59036 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John, You can't win... if you've truly lurked here as long as you say you have then you should know this by now. Jed has to send the last message to every thread... 8^) -j -----Original Message----- From: John Robertson [mailto:john_robertson byu.edu] Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2005 3:34 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: vortex-digest Digest V2005 #166 As I said, "I find Jed's method of argumentation interesting, even effective, but in many cases inherently contradictory." Case in point: He baldly states that "Robertson is putting words in my mouth. He should debate with what I actually said, not with what he thinks I think." Hmmm. Nice to know that Jed knows what I think: "I also find many aspects of Japanese and Chinese religious distasteful, or horrifying, and I expect Robertson would, too;" and later "I expect Robertson would find them kind of creepy." Does Jed really know me well enough to "expect" me to find certain beliefs distasteful, horrifying or creepy? I have spent more time in the third world than he has. I might be many things -- even religious -- but I don't view myself as naive. The word that comes to mind is patronizing. I want to make this simple point: While the CENTER of religion and the CENTER of science are geographically separate, it is impossible to find any clear division between them. Jed professes to be knowledgeable about the human condition, but I find it astonishing that he does not recognize that both are a part of the human condition -- and inseparably so. They always have been and always will be. Astronomical prediction is nothing if it is not a manifestation of science; placing flowers on graves is nothing if it is not a religious ritual and practice, both of which have been a part of the human condition from the beginning, as archeology teaches us. I personally despise any philosophy that bifurcates the world into two camps: proletariat versus bourgeoisie, Aryans versus non-Aryans, extreme feminists versus men, Islamists versus infidels (or any religious fundamentalists versus anyone else). The most extreme examples of man's inhumanity to man are squarely a product of this sort of bifurcation. If it is immoral to kill wantonly and selfishly, then the paradigm of bifurcation is immoral, since it has killed millions upon millions. It really does matter what people believe, because people are given to act on their beliefs. Pertinent to this discussion, I also despise the unnecessary polarization between science and religion, partly because it is logically unnecessary, but mostly because it can be hurtful -- on both sides. The only reason I took exception to Jed's unnecessary attack on religion is because quite frankly it is logically unnecessary, divisive, and at worst hurtful; hurtful because he is exceptionally articulate. Finally, I disagree with Jed's disagreement. When I said "The strength of science and religion is ambiguity and uncertainty, given the interface of our humble neocortex with the vast reality of the universe of which we are part," I meant it. While logic (the stuff and science) and intuition (the stuff of religion) are different, they work together in both science and religion. Intuition is absolutely critical -- indispensable -- to the scientific process, as C.S. Peirce (some say the greatest mind produced on American soil -- yes smarter than me and even Jed): "Underlying all such principles there is a fundamental and primary abduction [Peirce's word for hypothesis], a hypothesis which we must embrace at the outset,however destitute of evidentiary support it may be. That hypothesis is that the facts in hand admit of rationalization, and of rationalization by us. That we must hope they do, for the same reason that a general who has to capture a position or see his country ruined, must go on the hypothesis that there is some way in which he can and shall capture it. We must be animated by that hope concerning the problem we have in hand,whether we extend it to a general postulate covering all facts,or not. Now, that the matter of no new truth can come from induction or from deduction, we have seen. It can only come from abduction; and abduction is, after all, nothing but guessing. We are therefore bound to hope that, although the possible explanations of our facts may be strictly innumerable, yet our mind will be able, in some finite number of guesses, to guess the sole true explanation of them." On the other hand, it would be silly to say that religion is without logic. One need only read anthropologists like Levi Strauss, Edmund Leech, and a myriad others to appreciate the beauty of the systems of logic the underly religious belief and behavior. In short: It is reductionism at its worst to draw a line between scientific and religious practice. One emphasizes logic and the other intuition, but neither is possible without the other. The interaction of our cortex with the so-called lower brain as we interpret the incredible universe of which we are a part would have it no other way. -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.3 - Release Date: 05/04/05 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 7 21:25:12 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j384P1YM013262; Thu, 7 Apr 2005 21:25:01 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j384OvxN013233; Thu, 7 Apr 2005 21:24:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 21:24:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) In-Reply-To: <200504080325.j383Pw0E028132 ultra5.eskimo.com> References: <200504080325.j383Pw0E028132 ultra5.eskimo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Message-Id: <83a857f7ba0d7245cf7127afb4605fce byu.edu> From: John Robertson Subject: Re: vortex-digest Digest V2005 #174 Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 22:24:49 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j384OsYM013206 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59037 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > --- John Robertson wrote: > >> Dang! I was going to stop talking. > You *could* reconsider. Thanks, Terry. You're absolutely right. I have reconsidered, and have decided to unsubscribe. I have enjoyed Vortex, but I can live without it, as you no doubt can without me. Sorry to have inconvenienced. > I gather 'byu' is 'Brigham Young University', n'est-ce pas? Mais oui, alors. Une de tes maldites universitées réligeuses. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 8 00:11:53 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j387Bo1F001495; Fri, 8 Apr 2005 00:11:51 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j387BfiZ001448; Fri, 8 Apr 2005 00:11:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 00:11:41 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=HkG3OyFSdXiuYHE3xO1QpGbqyWSNW0G2TbU3DEqpu10nv+m+nNKofZwH9ntBM1mUHSDoqRSP5t1EZj8NpeSdMMP/W+fjhaxfHuS4HU/b0ghI4mKYMxLeeJn93XULpVsVG2eYCyOritRKYN0j9ZZYlLnUWEdr4lIZE4JFn32N7U8= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 00:11:39 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: vortex-digest Digest V2005 #174 In-Reply-To: <83a857f7ba0d7245cf7127afb4605fce byu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 References: <200504080325.j383Pw0E028132 ultra5.eskimo.com> <83a857f7ba0d7245cf7127afb4605fce byu.edu> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j387Bd1F001428 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59038 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: dont do that. we thrive on dissagreement. On Apr 7, 2005 9:24 PM, John Robertson wrote: > > --- John Robertson wrote: > > > >> Dang! I was going to stop talking. > > You *could* reconsider. > Thanks, Terry. You're absolutely right. I have reconsidered, and have > decided to unsubscribe. I have enjoyed Vortex, but I can live without > it, as you no doubt can without me. Sorry to have inconvenienced. > > > I gather 'byu' is 'Brigham Young University', n'est-ce pas? > > Mais oui, alors. Une de tes maldites universitées réligeuses. > > -- "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 8 05:38:30 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j38CcAYA007559; Fri, 8 Apr 2005 05:38:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j38CbvuN007458; Fri, 8 Apr 2005 05:37:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 05:37:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=yFpu8RFI1vMYlPTEkjdl6Ud41n+Zf6AfEib2b7bSzUP5e+CXoBmljGi9ADh0cOvI1JEHSaxQiKOLkQvQqJvc/8obOqj66zipXjneb7zCZvCVGpKZY/R0pO1wVL5IjMn55aT1GJpYYNAuOZOaC/WFB5ZQsHBF8W7+6eEzn0c0tXw= ; Message-ID: <20050408123743.46625.qmail web51708.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 05:37:43 -0700 (PDT) From: Terry Blanton Subject: Re: vortex-digest Digest V2005 #174 To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: 6667 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-338948981-1112963863=:45924" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59040 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-338948981-1112963863=:45924 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Wait! Don't give up so easily. Besides, you're in Utah and this list probably wouldn't exist were it not for the work performed by F&P there. Besides, I wanted to tell you of a book, Glenn Kleier's "The Last Day", which has a scene where all the leaders of the world's religions come to Utah to . . . Well, I wouldn't want to spoil it. http://www.thelastday.com/ "Softer messages bringing light to a truth long forgotten on As we shall speak to differ also the ends meet the river's son" -Yes -- "The Remembering: High the Memory" (Tales from Topographic Oceans) John Robertson wrote: > --- John Robertson wrote: > I have reconsidered, and have decided to unsubscribe. I have enjoyed Vortex, but I can live without it, as you no doubt can without me. Sorry to have inconvenienced. > I gather 'byu' is 'Brigham Young University', n'est-ce pas? Mais oui, alors. Une de tes maldites universitées réligeuses. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --0-338948981-1112963863=:45924 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Wait!  Don't give up so easily.  Besides, you're in Utah and this list probably wouldn't exist were it not for the work performed by F&P there.
 
Besides, I wanted to tell you of a book, Glenn Kleier's "The Last Day", which has a scene where all the leaders of the world's religions come to Utah to . . .
 
Well, I wouldn't want to spoil it.
 
 
"Softer messages bringing light to a truth long forgotten on
As we shall speak to differ also the ends meet the river's son"
 
-Yes -- "The Remembering:  High the Memory"
(Tales from Topographic Oceans)
 

John Robertson <john_robertson byu.edu> wrote:
> --- John Robertson wrote:
>
 I have reconsidered, and have
decided to unsubscribe. I have enjoyed Vortex, but I can live without
it, as you no doubt can without me. Sorry to have inconvenienced.

> I gather 'byu' is 'Brigham Young University', n'est-ce pas?

Mais oui, alors. Une de tes maldites universitées réligeuses.


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com --0-338948981-1112963863=:45924-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 8 05:38:32 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j38CcEYA007569; Fri, 8 Apr 2005 05:38:14 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j38Cbojl007393; Fri, 8 Apr 2005 05:37:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 05:37:50 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000c01c53c37$bf099030$0100007f xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: vortex -digest Digest V2005 # 174 Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 07:36:53 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0008_01C53C0D.BC09FDE0"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-99.5 required=4.0 tests=HTML_20_30,HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: <0FcbpC.A.MzB.csnVCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59039 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C53C0D.BC09FDE0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0009_01C53C0D.BC0B8480" ------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C53C0D.BC0B8480 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankSeveral ways to look at Vortexians. Either they are a mixed = collection of absolute humorists masquerading as intelligent form of = life, or they are absolute intelligents trying to act like humorists. A person like John, that can write with an eloquence, should not quit = the Vorts. Anyone from Utah should know their history of the wagon train = trek across the USA, where the cowards never started and the weak died = on the way. In Texas, never pull a gun in a saloon unless you intend to use it = because it is considered to be extremely poor sportsmanship for anyone = to complain when hit by stray bullets. Vorts are expected to tend their = own wounds with the medicine provided on the shelf behind the bartender. = The only rule is .. DON'T DARE BREAK THE GLASS MIRROR OR KNOCK DOWN THE = PAINTING OF THE LOUNGING BABE or you will suffer the wrath of the card = players trying to figure out the marked cards and why they were dealt = such in the great game of life. Frank.. gimme another ace outa that deck you have up your sleeve, I'm = almost certain Jed is trying to win this hand. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C53C0D.BC0B8480 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank

Several ways to look at Vortexians. Either they are a mixed = collection of=20 absolute humorists masquerading as intelligent form of life, or they are = absolute intelligents trying to act like  humorists.
 
A person like John, that can write with an eloquence, should not = quit the=20 Vorts. Anyone from Utah should know their history of the wagon train = trek across=20 the USA, where the cowards never started and the weak died on the = way.
 
In Texas, never pull a gun in a saloon unless you intend to use=20 it because it is considered to be extremely poor sportsmanship = for=20 anyone to complain when hit by stray bullets. Vorts are expected to tend = their=20 own wounds with the medicine provided on the shelf behind the bartender. = The=20 only rule is .. DON'T DARE BREAK THE GLASS MIRROR OR KNOCK DOWN THE = PAINTING OF=20 THE LOUNGING BABE or you will suffer the wrath of the card players = trying to=20 figure out the marked cards  and why they were dealt such in the = great game=20 of life.
 
Frank.. gimme another ace outa that deck you have up your sleeve, = I'm=20 almost certain Jed is trying to win this hand.
 
Richard

 
------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C53C0D.BC0B8480-- ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C53C0D.BC09FDE0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000701c53c37$a4d3d0e0$0100007f xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C53C0D.BC09FDE0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 8 07:08:31 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j38E8IYA014590; Fri, 8 Apr 2005 07:08:18 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j38E8Bfp014555; Fri, 8 Apr 2005 07:08:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 07:08:11 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050408100257.02bb31c8 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2005 10:07:52 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Windmills in the sky after all! In-Reply-To: <20050408003044.96121.qmail web51701.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050408003044.96121.qmail web51701.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_469125==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59041 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_469125==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Terry Blanton wrote: >I'm no expert; but, there are some really exotic >proposals: > >http://alt-e.blogspot.com/2004/12/wind-power-laddermills-high-altitude.html That is strange! That thing is mechanical?!? It says the kites turn a large wheel on the ground. It is hard to believe any material would be strong enough for the cable. It has to be light enough to reach five miles in the sky, and it has to bear the mechanical stress of driving a 100 MW generator. If you have material that can do that, you might as well use it to build a space elevator and fix the energy problem grand style. There is another article on this site about plug-in hybrids: http://alt-e.blogspot.com/2004/12/future-of-car-plug-in-hybrids.html - Jed --=====================_469125==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Terry Blanton wrote:

I'm no expert; but, there are some really exotic
proposals:

http://alt-e.blogspot.com/2004/12/wind-power-laddermills-high-altitude.html

That is strange! That thing is mechanical?!? It says the kites turn a large wheel on the ground. It is hard to believe any material would be strong enough for the cable. It has to be light enough to reach five miles in the sky, and it has to bear the mechanical stress of driving a 100 MW generator. If you have material that can do that, you might as well use it to build a space elevator and fix the energy problem grand style.

There is another article on this site about plug-in hybrids:

http://alt-e.blogspot.com/2004/12/future-of-car-plug-in-hybrids.html

- Jed
--=====================_469125==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 8 07:40:55 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j38EehYA030703; Fri, 8 Apr 2005 07:40:44 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j38EeG83030411; Fri, 8 Apr 2005 07:40:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 07:40:16 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 06:41:25 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: OT: Question regarding condoms Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59042 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I take it then that no one here actually knows the failure rate of condoms with regard to protection from aids. Yet there are such fervent beliefs expressed regarding promoting condom use as "safe sex". I can not see why this posture is not utterly reckless. If you can not understand my point regarding the nominal effect of reduction in the probability of infection per encounter upon the *final outcome* predicted by the exponential growth curve for infections, then maybe you can understand my point from an individual perspective. Surviving a string of sexual encounters without infection makes that string a set of dependent events. If q_i is the probability of surviving event i, then the probability of surviving n events is [product over all i] q_i If the probability of infection from a single encounter is p, then the probability of survival is q=(1-p), and the probability P(n) of surviving n events is: P(n) = (1-p)^n Since p is a number between 0 and 1, so is q = 1-p. Here is the important fact: [lim n -> inf] q^n = 0, when 0 Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 08:23:31 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: OT: Question regarding condoms In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 References: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j38FNWYA018472 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59043 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: your math assumes that all encounters are with someone who is hiv positive. On Apr 8, 2005 7:41 AM, Horace Heffner wrote: > I take it then that no one here actually knows the failure rate of condoms > with regard to protection from aids. Yet there are such fervent beliefs > expressed regarding promoting condom use as "safe sex". I can not see why > this posture is not utterly reckless. > > If you can not understand my point regarding the nominal effect of > reduction in the probability of infection per encounter upon the *final > outcome* predicted by the exponential growth curve for infections, then > maybe you can understand my point from an individual perspective. > > Surviving a string of sexual encounters without infection makes that string > a set of dependent events. If q_i is the probability of surviving event i, > then the probability of surviving n events is > > [product over all i] q_i > > If the probability of infection from a single encounter is p, then the > probability of survival is q=(1-p), and the probability P(n) of surviving n > events is: > > P(n) = (1-p)^n > > Since p is a number between 0 and 1, so is q = 1-p. Here is the important fact: > > [lim n -> inf] q^n = 0, when 0 > This is the essence of Murphy's law (though not the many humerous but bogus > correlaries.) As n goes to infinity, q^n approches zero surprisingly > rapidly, even if p is small and q is close to 1. From this, given p, we > can figure out how many encounters before the probability of survival is > less than any given probability. Suppose we want to know how many > encounters are required before the probability of infection is 90 percent. > We then have: > > P(n) = 0.1 = (1-p)^n > > ln(0.1) = n * ln(1-p) > > n = ln(0.1)/ln(1-p) > > So, for example, suppose the probabilty p of infection from an encounter is > 0.05. We then have > > n = ln(.1)/ln(0.95) = 45 > > At an encounter rate of 2 per week this means 90 percent probability of > infection after 23 weeks. If p = 0.01, then this increases to 115 weeks, > and so on. If the probability of infection in an encounter is 1/1000, then > the amount of time before a 50/50 chance of infection, > (ln(.5)/ln(0.999))/104, is less than 7 years. > > Reducing the probability of infection merely changes the amount of time > before infection, not the outcome. From an aggreagate point of view, it > merely changes the amount of time before some percentage of the vulnerable > population is infected. > > Making statements that might move people from a protected group (chaste or > monogamous) into an exposed group, when the probability p is not known, or > if the resultant p is larger than 1/1000, is reckless and deadly. Implying > the use of condoms makes for "safe sex" is such a statement. > > Form an aggregate point of view, condom use will have no effect on the > final outcome unless a cure or vaccine is developed. It does slow the rate > of progression though. It is important that the manner in which condom use > is advocated does not tend to move people from a protected group into the > exposed population. Barring a miracle of modern medicine, the exposed > group are mostly goners. > > Regards, > > Horace Heffner > > -- "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 8 08:35:14 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j38FYqYA023641; Fri, 8 Apr 2005 08:34:53 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j38FYhZB023527; Fri, 8 Apr 2005 08:34:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 08:34:43 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Standing Bear To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: New battery technology Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 11:42:28 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050329131847.02c4f9f8@pop.mindspring.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050329134447.02b99090@pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050329134447.02b99090 pop.mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200504081142.28441.rockcast earthlink.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59044 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Tuesday 29 March 2005 13:59, Jed Rothwell wrote: > I wrote: > >The biggest problem with charging stations would be lack of customers. I > >think most people would find it more convenient to recharge at home > >overnight, rather than interrupt their commute. > > In other words, charging stations would only be economically viable on > highways where people travel hundreds of miles from their houses and > offices, but you would see no charging stations in major cities. When a > third of gasoline cars are replaced by electric cars, the demand for > gasoline would fall, most gas stations would close, and you would soon see > no gasoline stations in major cities either. That would be an advantage, > not a problem. Gas stations are ugly. If most of them went out of business > that would force the rest of the gasoline vehicle fleet owners to switch > over to electricity, which would be a plus. > > I think this kind of transition could occur much faster than most people > realize. (I am not saying it will, but it could.) It would take 10 or 20 > years if government and industry got serious. Gasoline at $5 per gallon > would do the trick. > > On March 28, New York Times columnist Thomas Friedman suggested that the > government should impose a tax on gasoline to keep the price at $4 per > gallon. See: "Geo-Greening by Example." That is an excellent idea but it > would never fly. Still, it is remarkable that serious newspapers are > suggesting such radical steps. Friedman wrote: "By doing nothing to lower > U.S. oil consumption, we are financing both sides in the war on terrorism > and strengthening the worst governments in the world." > > Friedman also advocated building nuclear power plants again. That may > happen. It is much more likely than the advent of a tax to raise the price > of gas to $4/gallon. I sense a groundswell of support for conventional > nuclear power in the national press. Unfortunately I have seen no reference > whatever in the press to cold fusion -- or hot fusion for that matter. > > - Jed Once the anti nuclear leftovers from the maoist antiwar subversion campaign by the heirs of the old Comintern of the 1970's are mostly dead or quiet, and that is happening now as most of these were drug users and have had short lives; then the new atmosphere of nuclear common sense will have an even fairer chance at success. Price will undoubtedly drive the politics of the issue as energy is short everywhere. Like William F. Buckley said once about energy being fungible around the world, so it is today as well, as the laws of economics do not change very much. Only now we will need nuclear rockets as well. Chemical rockets have to low, far far too low a coefficient of performance to even be considered for even intra-system travel. We will have to come to terms with the idea of a nuclear primary booster.....or....good heavens....a nuclear shuttle of only one stage to orbit. Alternatively, JP Aerospace's idea, when they aren't busy making their main business of Pong-Sats, is to use solar electric dirigibles of great size to first ascend with a sturdy craft of about 1000 ft or so to a height of about 200,000 ft to a large transfer station (Dark Sky Station) about 6000-10000 feet in diameter, thence transfer cargo to a true space ascender that can be flimsier but must be larger to take advantage of what was left of the atmosphere before its solar electric thrusters can build up enough speed for orbital velocity. Another alternative is the mirror fusion engine for main power. It is powered by a nuclear reactor. If these things can get us to the moon where we can mine the tritium, then pure fusion mirror devices become feasible. In any case, the moon's resource of tritium will open up our system to us for exploration as it will be our fuel station for space craft for many years. Pure fusion devices will be far more efficient and far less polluting that any of the other alternatives available to us plausibly at present. Standing Bear From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 8 10:02:38 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j38H2UYA002528; Fri, 8 Apr 2005 10:02:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j38H2QE5002493; Fri, 8 Apr 2005 10:02:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 10:02:26 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050408123745.02bc0250 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2005 13:01:50 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: OT: Question regarding condoms In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_2338828==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59045 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_2338828==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Horace Heffner wrote: >I take it then that no one here actually knows the failure rate of condoms >with regard to protection from aids. No one here does, but people elsewhere do. I have some friends at the CDC who could tell you all about it. >Yet there are such fervent beliefs expressed regarding promoting condom >use as "safe sex". I can not see why this posture is not utterly reckless. This conclusion is based on extensive, careful fieldwork by experts. You should not try to second-guess these experts judging by a few idle comments by non-experts at this forum. No one here has even tried to research this question seriously. I read papers about AIDS years ago, and I know a thing or two about public health, but I would have to read a few books and a dozen papers on the subject before I would be willing to venture a serious opinion on the matter. My default opinion is to agree with experts who have spent years working in the field. If you seriously believe there may be a problem with this, you should read a large sample of the relevant literature carefully, and then try to work out a model based on actual data, rather than haphazard guesses. The experts are not always right, but someone who knows nothing about a field can seldom find a problem right off the bat. That is the lesson of cold fusion. The experts in CF have been right all along. People from outside the field have parachuted in, looked at a few results, and jumped to the unwarranted conclusion.that there must be a mistake in the experiments. They are wrong. I have not examined the literature on AIDS carefully, but I am confident that you are incorrect, and your model does not reflect reality. As Leaking Pen pointed out, you are assuming all partners are HIV positive. I would add that you talked about people having sex 7 years after becoming positive. Most HIV positive people in the third world, where AIDS is a problem, are dead after 7 years. Many of the ones who are still alive are too sick to have sex. Also, people do not go around having sex at random with every available person. Even promiscuous people have very few partners. You should look at some actual case studies. Consider Japan, for example. It is a very promiscuous society. This is not modern trend; it has been that way since at least the 11th century as far as I know. (This is one of reasons I think it is ridiculous to suggest that promiscuity is a product of modern life or that peoples morals suddenly changed when contraceptives were invented.) Prostitution is rampant in Japan. Edo period arts and drama spotlight prostitution and celebrate it more than in any other society I have ever heard of. Well known prostitutes were national celebrities. Yet the incidence of AIDS in Japan is low, and it is not increasing. Many public health experts have concluded that one of the biggest contributing factors is that condoms are widely used in Japan, and they are of excellent quality. - Jed --=====================_2338828==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Horace Heffner wrote:

I take it then that no one here actually knows the failure rate of condoms
with regard to protection from aids.

No one here does, but people elsewhere do. I have some friends at the CDC who could tell you all about it.


Yet there are such fervent beliefs expressed regarding promoting condom use as "safe sex".  I can not see why this posture is not utterly reckless.

This conclusion is based on extensive, careful fieldwork by experts. You should not try to second-guess these experts judging by a few idle comments by non-experts at this forum. No one here has even tried to research this question seriously. I read papers about AIDS years ago, and I know a thing or two about public health, but I would have to read a few books and a dozen papers on the subject before I would be willing to venture a serious opinion on the matter. My default opinion is to agree with experts who have spent years working in the field. If you seriously believe there may be a problem with this, you should read a large sample of the relevant literature carefully, and then try to work out a model based on actual data, rather than haphazard guesses.

The experts are not always right, but someone who knows nothing about a field can seldom find a problem right off the bat. That is the lesson of cold fusion. The experts in CF have been right all along. People from outside the field have parachuted in, looked at a few results, and jumped to the unwarranted conclusion.that there must be a mistake in the experiments. They are wrong. I have not examined the literature on AIDS carefully, but I am confident that you are incorrect, and your model does not reflect reality. As Leaking Pen pointed out, you are assuming all partners are HIV positive. I would add that you talked about people having sex 7 years after becoming positive. Most HIV positive people in the third world, where AIDS is a problem, are dead after 7 years. Many of the ones who are still alive are too sick to have sex. Also, people do not go around having sex at random with every available person. Even promiscuous people have very few partners.

You should look at some actual case studies. Consider Japan, for example. It is a very promiscuous society. This is not modern trend; it has been that way since at least the 11th century as far as I know.  (This is one of reasons I think it is ridiculous to suggest that promiscuity is a product of modern life or that peoples morals suddenly changed when contraceptives were invented.) Prostitution is rampant in Japan. Edo period arts and drama spotlight prostitution and celebrate it more than in any other society I have ever heard of. Well known prostitutes were national celebrities. Yet the incidence of AIDS in Japan is low, and it is not increasing. Many public health experts have concluded that one of the biggest contributing factors is that condoms are widely used in Japan, and they are of excellent quality.

- Jed
 --=====================_2338828==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 8 10:12:11 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j38HC0YA006541; Fri, 8 Apr 2005 10:12:00 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j38HBwFw006513; Fri, 8 Apr 2005 10:11:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 10:11:58 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=uLhzMn5D07/utIupoQ/mVxFCON8gpilZiOi4D1GpudgzKJPva6aga2qimr1V3EldrGbTtD/yHVlkFyVuHQR5dREuBj1XB7S4NOf54YV8f4E0ahCeORl+9Z0IgP5NqSouemZMiM0l+T94iXqE2iwkMPXOcd4GFIEPU9d3TsBn0uI= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 10:11:55 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: OT: Question regarding condoms In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050408123745.02bc0250 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050408123745.02bc0250 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j38HBsYA006492 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59046 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: id like to clarify. i spent several days researching this issue about a year ago for a similar discussion. the numbers i quote are recollections. heres another for you, btw. teens who were in abstinence based sex education programs were shown to have a HIGHER rate of sex, and a higher rate of unprotected sex. THAT, my friends, is the immoral side of the issue. thinking that you can simply tell people not to, and have them not to, without telling them how to protect themselves, now THATS dangerous and naive. ill hunt down the study info for you if youd like, but 10 minutes with google would get you a metric assload of data. On Apr 8, 2005 10:01 AM, Jed Rothwell wrote: > Horace Heffner wrote: > > I take it then that no one here actually knows the failure rate of condoms > with regard to protection from aids. > No one here does, but people elsewhere do. I have some friends at the CDC > who could tell you all about it. > > > Yet there are such fervent beliefs expressed regarding promoting condom use > as "safe sex". I can not see why this posture is not utterly reckless. > This conclusion is based on extensive, careful fieldwork by experts. You > should not try to second-guess these experts judging by a few idle comments > by non-experts at this forum. No one here has even tried to research this > question seriously. I read papers about AIDS years ago, and I know a thing > or two about public health, but I would have to read a few books and a dozen > papers on the subject before I would be willing to venture a serious opinion > on the matter. My default opinion is to agree with experts who have spent > years working in the field. If you seriously believe there may be a problem > with this, you should read a large sample of the relevant literature > carefully, and then try to work out a model based on actual data, rather > than haphazard guesses. > > The experts are not always right, but someone who knows nothing about a > field can seldom find a problem right off the bat. That is the lesson of > cold fusion. The experts in CF have been right all along. People from > outside the field have parachuted in, looked at a few results, and jumped to > the unwarranted conclusion.that there must be a mistake in the experiments. > They are wrong. I have not examined the literature on AIDS carefully, but I > am confident that you are incorrect, and your model does not reflect > reality. As Leaking Pen pointed out, you are assuming all partners are HIV > positive. I would add that you talked about people having sex 7 years after > becoming positive. Most HIV positive people in the third world, where AIDS > is a problem, are dead after 7 years. Many of the ones who are still alive > are too sick to have sex. Also, people do not go around having sex at random > with every available person. Even promiscuous people have very few partners. > > You should look at some actual case studies. Consider Japan, for example. It > is a very promiscuous society. This is not modern trend; it has been that > way since at least the 11th century as far as I know. (This is one of > reasons I think it is ridiculous to suggest that promiscuity is a product of > modern life or that peoples morals suddenly changed when contraceptives were > invented.) Prostitution is rampant in Japan. Edo period arts and drama > spotlight prostitution and celebrate it more than in any other society I > have ever heard of. Well known prostitutes were national celebrities. Yet > the incidence of AIDS in Japan is low, and it is not increasing. Many public > health experts have concluded that one of the biggest contributing factors > is that condoms are widely used in Japan, and they are of excellent quality. > > - Jed > -- "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 8 10:20:33 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j38HKLYA012755; Fri, 8 Apr 2005 10:20:21 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j38HKITC012730; Fri, 8 Apr 2005 10:20:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 10:20:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=hwiSAsmsKZIDoOAmRZWytIaLXlidcxyO7qlOqYI9PgCPEjANYT4aDejtuhp7GmQlN5ppsdUSpFATO4jhoT2RFUgrSah6Gr8WxAZWhWyDSRgTuW57fJZ9RotUp6m3efNPOCTk2JLspEq73VbzysPgkSmdbcl4kPoQxLakTYVMW0M= ; Message-ID: <20050408172011.68343.qmail web51707.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 10:20:11 -0700 (PDT) From: Terry Blanton Subject: SONY Patents Metaverse First Step To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-978718520-1112980811=:66994" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59047 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --0-978718520-1112980811=:66994 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii "IMAGINE movies and computer games in which you get to smell, taste and perhaps even feel things. That's the tantalising prospect raised by a patent on a device for transmitting sensory data directly into the human brain - granted to none other than the entertainment giant Sony." http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=mg18624944.600 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --0-978718520-1112980811=:66994 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
"IMAGINE movies and computer games in which you get to smell, taste and perhaps even feel things. That's the tantalising prospect raised by a patent on a device for transmitting sensory data directly into the human brain - granted to none other than the entertainment giant Sony."
 

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com --0-978718520-1112980811=:66994-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 8 10:29:04 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j38HSuYA017418; Fri, 8 Apr 2005 10:28:56 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j38HSpl4017375; Fri, 8 Apr 2005 10:28:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 10:28:51 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050408130228.02c59b98 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2005 13:08:40 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Conventional nuclear fission plants are not cost effective In-Reply-To: <200504081142.28441.rockcast earthlink.net> References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050329131847.02c4f9f8 pop.mindspring.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050329134447.02b99090 pop.mindspring.com> <200504081142.28441.rockcast earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_3937328==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59048 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_3937328==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Standing Bear wrote: >Once the anti nuclear leftovers from the maoist antiwar subversion campaign by >the heirs of the old Comintern of the 1970's are mostly dead or quiet, and >that is happening now as most of these were drug users and have had short >lives; then the new atmosphere of nuclear common sense will have an even >fairer chance at success. Opposition from left-wing people has had little or no effect on nuclear reactor construction. The nuclear industry died because power companies do not want it. The reactors are too expensive and unreliable. They would never have been built in the first place in a free market economy, because no insurance company or consortium will cover the risk of an accident. The government stepped in, agreed to pay for accidents, and exempted the industry from liability. Next generation nuclear reactors may well be cost effective, and they may be reasonably safe, although no one has found a good way to get rid of the waste yet. Existing reactor designs are at least six times more expensive than competing zero-pollution alternatives such as wind power. You would have to be crazy to build a nuclear plant where wind resources are available. The world is now building the equivalent of 3 large nuclear reactors per year in wind farms measured by actual output, not "nameplate" capacity. World growth in 2004 was 7,976 MW nameplate, or 2,658 actual, compared to the average U.S. nuclear plant which is 900 MW actual. See: http://www.awea.org/news/03-04-o5-GlobalWindEnergyMarkets.pdf. I think wind power is now expanding faster than nuclear capacity did at the peak of the nuclear plant construction in the late 1960s. (Not sure about that.) We could easily find the money and the wind resources to 10 per year, or 50, and that would cost roughly $250 billion than building 50 nuclear reactors. Which would you recommend? If we built 80 per year for 20 years, that would be enough to generate all of the electricity on earth, assuming we can use hydrogen gas or HTSC to move the energy from windy places to places like Georgia. If the high-altitude kite generator approach works, wind power will cost rough half as much as the cheapest conventional electricity, from coal. We could replace all of the power generators in the world and all of the oil in 20 or 30 years, at cost perhaps 50 times cheaper than nuclear plants. Building nuclear power plants when that option is available would be insanity squared. The only thing crazier would be to build fission reactors after cold fusion is perfected. The only thing more expensive than conventional uranium fission is the Japanese Monju breeder reactor fission project. If it worked, it would be like burning furniture to heat your house. It would cost roughly a hundred times more than wind power would *today*. Fortunately, the breeder program is a dead duck. - Jed --=====================_3937328==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Standing Bear wrote:

Once the anti nuclear leftovers from the maoist antiwar subversion campaign by
the heirs of the old Comintern of the 1970's are mostly dead or quiet, and
that is happening now as most of these were drug users and have had short
lives;  then the new atmosphere of nuclear common sense will have an even
fairer chance at success.

Opposition from left-wing people has had little or no effect on nuclear reactor construction. The nuclear industry died because power companies do not want it. The reactors are too expensive and unreliable. They would never have been built in the first place in a free market economy, because no insurance company or consortium will cover the risk of an accident. The government stepped in, agreed to pay for accidents, and exempted the industry from liability.

Next generation nuclear reactors may well be cost effective, and they may be reasonably safe, although no one has found a good way to get rid of the waste yet. Existing reactor designs are at least six times more expensive than competing zero-pollution alternatives such as wind power. You would have to be crazy to build a nuclear plant where wind resources are available. The world is now building the equivalent of 3 large nuclear reactors per year in wind farms measured by actual output, not "nameplate" capacity. World growth in 2004 was 7,976 MW nameplate, or 2,658 actual, compared to the average U.S. nuclear plant which is 900 MW actual. See: http://www.awea.org/news/03-04-o5-GlobalWindEnergyMarkets.pdf.

I think wind power is now expanding faster than nuclear capacity did at the peak of the nuclear plant construction in the late 1960s. (Not sure about that.) We could easily find the money and the wind resources to 10 per year, or 50, and that would cost roughly $250 billion than building 50 nuclear reactors. Which would you recommend? If we built 80 per year for 20 years, that would be enough to generate all of the electricity on earth, assuming we can use hydrogen gas or HTSC to move the energy from windy places to places like Georgia.

If the high-altitude kite generator approach works, wind power will cost rough half as much as the cheapest conventional electricity, from coal. We could replace all of the power generators in the world and all of the oil in 20 or 30 years, at cost perhaps 50 times cheaper than nuclear plants. Building nuclear power plants when that option is available would be insanity squared. The only thing crazier would be to build fission reactors after cold fusion is perfected.

The only thing more expensive than conventional uranium fission is the Japanese Monju breeder reactor fission project. If it worked, it would be like burning furniture to heat your house. It would cost roughly a hundred times more than wind power would *today*. Fortunately, the breeder program is a dead duck.

- Jed
 --=====================_3937328==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 8 11:01:07 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j38I0vYA029049; Fri, 8 Apr 2005 11:00:57 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j38I0q8W029024; Fri, 8 Apr 2005 11:00:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 11:00:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050408133445.02c6f480 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2005 14:00:38 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Conventional nuclear fission plants are not cost effective In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050408130228.02c59b98 pop.mindspring.com> References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050329131847.02c4f9f8 pop.mindspring.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050329134447.02b99090 pop.mindspring.com> <200504081142.28441.rockcast earthlink.net> <6.2.0.14.2.20050408130228.02c59b98 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_5857796==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: <--P8MC.A.dFH.UbsVCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59049 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_5857796==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I wrote: >We could easily find the money and the wind resources to 10 per year, or >50, and that would cost roughly $250 billion than building 50 nuclear >reactors. . . . That came out all scrambled up, and I am not even using voice input. I meant we could build the equivalent of 10 to 50 nuclear power reactor equivalent (NPRE) per year in wind farms. 10 NPRE = 9,000 MW actual, or 27,000 MW nameplate for wind. This would not put a strain on world production of steel and concrete, although it would cost a lot of money. A crash program to build 1,000 NPRE per year would drastically effect world markets for steel and other resources. It would be like going to war, or conducting another Manhattan project. The Manhattan project used up a significant fraction of U.S. industrial output and electric power in 1943 and 1944. The average turbine these days is 1 or 2 MW, depending on the location. Enormous 10 MW ones are under development for optimum locations such as offshore. Estimating very roughly, the U.S. has 100 nuclear plants averaging 900 MW actual (taking into account the times they are off-line). They produce 20% of U.S. electricity, so we would need ~500 to produce all electricity. (This would not actually work with 500 conventional plants, because you cannot turn them on and off quickly enough to balance the load, and for various other reasons. They only work for baseline generation.) The U.S. consumes about 25% of the world's electricity, so the world would need ~2,000 U.S. style large nuclear plants, or 2,000 NPRE. If you look at actual U.S. and world generating capacity, you will find very different numbers, much higher than this, because power plants have to turn on and off and meet peak demand. I am assuming here that some kind of effective hydrogen buffer or giant batteries could smooth demand. Previously I said we could meet world demand by building 80 NPRE per year for 20 years. This should have been ~100 per year for 20 years. Of course this only a rough estimate. You would have to start replacing the old ones even before the project ended, plus demand is likely to increase. This is a ballpark estimate, intended only to show that the project is doable, and it would not cost unthinkable amounts of money. Building 2,000 present-day design nuclear plants would be unthinkable. Any alternative would be cheaper -- even space elevators and space-based solar. Next generation nuclear plants might be very attractive. That is a whole different story. - Jed --=====================_5857796==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" I wrote:

We could easily find the money and the wind resources to 10 per year, or 50, and that would cost roughly $250 billion than building 50 nuclear reactors. . . .

That came out all scrambled up, and I am not even using voice input.

I meant we could build the equivalent of 10 to 50 nuclear power reactor equivalent (NPRE) per year in wind farms. 10 NPRE = 9,000 MW actual, or 27,000 MW nameplate for wind. This would not put a strain on world production of steel and concrete, although it would cost a lot of money. A crash program to build 1,000 NPRE per year would drastically effect world markets for steel and other resources. It would be like going to war, or conducting another Manhattan project. The Manhattan project used up a significant fraction of U.S. industrial output and electric power in 1943 and 1944.

The average turbine these days is 1 or 2 MW, depending on the location. Enormous 10 MW ones are under development for optimum locations such as offshore.

Estimating very roughly, the U.S. has 100 nuclear plants averaging 900 MW actual (taking into account the times they are off-line). They produce 20% of U.S. electricity, so we would need ~500 to produce all electricity. (This would not actually work with 500 conventional plants, because you cannot turn them on and off quickly enough to balance the load, and for various other reasons. They only work for baseline generation.) The U.S. consumes about 25% of the world's electricity, so the world would need ~2,000 U.S. style large nuclear plants, or 2,000 NPRE. If you look at actual U.S. and world generating capacity, you will find very different numbers, much higher than this, because power plants have to turn on and off and meet peak demand. I am assuming here that some kind of effective hydrogen buffer or giant batteries could smooth demand.

Previously I said we could meet world demand by building 80 NPRE per year for 20 years. This should have been ~100 per year for 20 years. Of course this only a rough estimate. You would have to start replacing the old ones even before the project ended, plus demand is likely to increase. This is a ballpark estimate, intended only to show that the project is doable, and it would not cost unthinkable amounts of money. Building 2,000 present-day design nuclear plants would be unthinkable. Any alternative would be cheaper -- even space elevators and space-based solar.

Next generation nuclear plants might be very attractive. That is a whole different story.

- Jed
--=====================_5857796==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 8 11:27:40 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j38IRTYA008716; Fri, 8 Apr 2005 11:27:29 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j38IRPxf008690; Fri, 8 Apr 2005 11:27:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 11:27:26 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 10:28:58 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: OT: Question regarding condoms Resent-Message-ID: <2cZUJD.A.tHC.N0sVCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59050 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 8:23 AM 4/8/5, leaking pen wrote: >your math assumes that all encounters are with someone who is hiv positive. Not true. I made no assumptions that the sample data was valid or in what context they would be valid. However, if it will make you happy I will now suggest that a 1/1000 infection rate is not an unrealistic number in a high incidence group, like some of those in Africa for example. However, at this point we do not even have available the probability of condum failure in common modalities, so it is not possible to make any serious calculations. The incidence of aids worldwide is increasing. We do know that. The notion of "safe sex" is nonsense, and it is more that way as time goes on and the inevitable happens, assuming no miracle of modern medicine. I would also point out from a practical standpoint that some people might be interested in being able to figure out how long they could expect to be aids free if a long term partner they choose happens to have aids. At 10:11 AM 4/8/5, leaking pen wrote: >id like to clarify. i spent several days researching this issue about >a year ago for a similar discussion. the numbers i quote are >recollections. > >heres another for you, btw. teens who were in abstinence based sex >education programs were shown to have a HIGHER rate of sex, and a >higher rate of unprotected sex. >THAT, my friends, is the immoral side of the issue. thinking that you >can simply tell people not to, and have them not to, without telling >them how to protect themselves, now THATS dangerous and naive. I've said nothing about telling people what to do, nor have I said anything about not teaching people how to use condoms. People make their own choices anyway based on information provided. What I *am* saying is that the information provided should not be misleading. The implication that the use of condoms is "safe" is irresponsible, and is increasingly so as the disease progresses. It would be interesting to know why abstinence based sex education programs have a higher rate of sex, and if that sex occured in long term monogomous relations. >Horace Heffner wrote: > >>I take it then that no one here actually knows the failure rate of condoms >>with regard to protection from aids. > >No one here does, but people elsewhere do. I have some friends at the CDC >who could tell you all about it. > > >>Yet there are such fervent beliefs expressed regarding promoting condom >>use as "safe sex". I can not see why this posture is not utterly reckless. > >This conclusion is based on extensive, careful fieldwork by experts. You >should not try to second-guess these experts judging by a few idle comments >by non-experts at this forum. You seem to have no qualms about second guessing experts, in fusion for example. 8^) I'm making no second guesses. I'm simply pointing out some mathematical facts and the consequences they imply based on given assumptions. This requires no expertise. You on the other hand, in response to a request for information, have provided guesses or assumptions and a seemingly boundless quantity of diatribe to go with them. It is perfectly logical that condom use will slow the spread of aids. It does not take an expert to see that. Further, the more the onslaught is delayed, the larger the number of people who will be saved by medical advances if and when they come. However, it is not necessarily so that condom use will stop aids from infecting the majority of people who are at risk however. It seems to me the general population in the USA has a distorted picture of aids at this time, not yet being anywhere near the point of inflection of the S shaped curve. The principle conclusion I've drawn is that no action should be taken, especially a misleading action, which draws people out of safe populations and into populations at risk. This conclusion to me is self-evident and requires no special expertise. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 8 13:17:14 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j38KH0YA015217; Fri, 8 Apr 2005 13:17:01 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j38KGvaM015200; Fri, 8 Apr 2005 13:16:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 13:16:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050408151149.02bdd020 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2005 16:16:43 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: OT: Question regarding condoms In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59051 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: >It is perfectly logical that condom use will slow the spread of aids. It >does not take an expert to see that. Further, the more the onslaught is >delayed, the larger the number of people who will be saved by medical >advances if and when they come. You are missing the point. People are only saved by medical advances in rich nations. In most of the world there is no treatment at all -- not even aspirin. This means the use of the condom not only slows the spread of AIDS; it reverses it. People who get the disease die off rapidly, or they become too sick to have sex. In advanced countries such as Japan where there is treatment and universal health care, AIDS is not increasing. The number of infections in Japan is holding steady at 12,000, with fewer than 500 deaths per year. The onslaught has not only been delayed; it has been ended, mainly by the use of condoms. There is no longer any threat that AIDS will become endemic in Japan, even though the society is rife with prostitution. There would be no threat from AIDS in the U.S. if we had universal health care and sane sex education. Unfortunately a fifth of our people do not get proper care. This is reflected in health statistics such as chronic disease, infant mortality, and longevity, which are far behind other major developed nations, not to mention Brunei, Cyprus, Czech Republic, Finland, Ireland, Israel, Italy, Luxembourg, Malta, Portugal, San Marino, Singapore, Slovenia, Spain and Cuba. (Overall the U.S. is number 30 in infant mortality, and it is the only developed country in which the numbers are getting worse.) If condoms did not exist, and someone invented them now, everyone would assume this means the end of the AIDS epidemic. It would be considered a cure. A treatment which reduces the chances of getting an infectious disease by a factor of 10 or 20 will eventually eliminate the disease. This rivals the effectiveness of the measles vaccine, which 98%. (http://www.ilshrestha.com.np/vaccine.html) Vaccines are seldom 100% effective, plus there are always a few people who refuse to be vaccinated, but despite this gap vaccines eventually eliminate an infectious disease. Condoms would eliminate AIDS if they were widely used, even though individuals would still be at risk, and many would still die from condom failures. >The principle conclusion I've drawn is that no action should be taken, >especially a misleading action, which draws people out of safe populations >and into populations at risk. People do not have sex because you "suggest" they should, or you reassure them it is safe. Nobody "draws them out." They have sex no matter what, at all times and places, even when Draconian penalties are imposed for adultery. In Africa, nature has imposed the most Draconian punishment imaginable: agonizing death by AIDS. Everyone there knows that, but they go on having sex anyway. If that threat is not enough, what makes you think advice would affect their behavior? Having said that, I agree that advice and education should be offered. It will do some good, and save lives. But condoms are much more effective. If you must choose one or the other, you should definitely go with condoms. In most of the world, the annual health care budget is less than $10 per year per person, so they do have to choose one or the other. Actually, they cannot afford either one, which is why people are still dying by the millions from AIDS. They also cannot afford modern mosquito nets treated with insecticide, which nearly eliminates malaria. The nets cost $5 per person per year, but several hundred million people who need them cannot afford them, and 1 to 3 million people per year die from the disease. (See: http://www.malaria.org/NYTIMES.HTM) - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 8 14:06:07 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j38L5sYA032675; Fri, 8 Apr 2005 14:05:54 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j38L5nXT032631; Fri, 8 Apr 2005 14:05:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 14:05:49 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050408164147.02c46d18 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2005 17:05:36 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: OT: Question regarding condoms In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050408151149.02bdd020 pop.mindspring.com> References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050408151149.02bdd020 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_9440765==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59052 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_9440765==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I wrote: >In advanced countries such as Japan where there is treatment and universal >health care, AIDS is not increasing. The number of infections in Japan is >holding steady at 12,000, with fewer than 500 deaths per year. That should be: the number of infected people in Japan in holding steady at 12,000. The number of new infections is ~150 per year. This is below the number of deaths, ~500. When the presently infected cohort dies from the disease and/or old age, AIDS in Japan in the native population will be eliminated. These numbers are inexact. See: http://www.unaids.org/en/geographical+area/by+country/japan.asp Because the U.S. has Third Word standards of health care and inadequate sex education, the prevalence of AIDS is six times higher than Japan and other advanced nations, and the number of new infections is still at 42,000 per year, 270 times higher than Japan (which has half the population). See: http://www.unaids.org/en/geographical+area/by+country/united+states+of+america.asp (Click on the document on the right: "1. United States of America : epidemiological fact sheets on HIV/AIDS and sexually transmitted infections") - Jed --=====================_9440765==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" I wrote:

In advanced countries such as Japan where there is treatment and universal health care, AIDS is not increasing. The number of infections in Japan is holding steady at 12,000, with fewer than 500 deaths per year.

That should be: the number of infected people in Japan in holding steady at 12,000.

The number of new infections is ~150 per year. This is below the number of deaths, ~500. When the presently infected cohort dies from the disease and/or old age, AIDS in Japan in the native population will be eliminated. These numbers are inexact. See:

http://www.unaids.org/en/geographical+area/by+country/japan.asp

Because the U.S. has Third Word standards of health care and inadequate sex education, the prevalence of AIDS is six times higher than Japan and other advanced nations, and the number of new infections is still at 42,000 per year, 270 times higher than Japan (which has half the population). See:

http://www.unaids.org/en/geographical+area/by+country/united+states+of+america.asp

(Click on the document on the right: "1. United States of America : epidemiological fact sheets on HIV/AIDS and sexually transmitted infections")

- Jed
--=====================_9440765==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 8 15:14:29 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j38MEIV2023080; Fri, 8 Apr 2005 15:14:19 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j38ME8vt022972; Fri, 8 Apr 2005 15:14:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 15:14:08 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: SONY Patents Metaverse First Step Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 18:15:47 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <20050408172011.68343.qmail web51707.mail.yahoo.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59054 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Terry, Boy, is this ever a product liability nightmare! You will remember back in the good old days, when Vo users actually posted about invention and technology, that our own John Schnurer had done some work for the USAF concerning this technology. The modality was magnetic eddy current induction, the apparatus was nothing more than some large electrolytic caps, an SCR, and a 1 or 2 turn coil proximate to the users head. The results could be pretty profound, with users reporting sensory experiences similar to what are described in your article. It might also be noted that when certain centers of the brain are stimulated people report religious experiences, but obviously we risk being burned at the stake for such heresy so I'll just move on... The liability issue comes up due the the normal variation in brains and the precision needed for the stimulation. Clearly the coil approach is gross stimulation; ultrasonic is much finer and a substantial improvement in the art. That said, John wrote me about a very disturbing event that occurred in the course of testing. By accident, the optic nerve was stimulated in one experiment. The result was blindness, which lasted about 15-30 minutes until the residual stimulation subsided. Needless to say, the workers and test subject were pretty upset about this. One could imagine a variety of negative results if the stimulation misses, including disruption of some pretty important bodily functions. Cave, Frater. I never had the balls to reproduce those experiments, although I have all the fixings at my fingertips here in the lab. Anyone want to volunteer? (grin). K. BTW, does anyone know what happened to John? I haven't heard from him in years, and like many creative people, he was prone to go flapping off into the darkness now and then. -----Original Message----- From: Terry Blanton [mailto:terry1094 yahoo.com] Sent: Friday, April 08, 2005 1:20 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: SONY Patents Metaverse First Step "IMAGINE movies and computer games in which you get to smell, taste and perhaps even feel things. That's the tantalising prospect raised by a patent on a device for transmitting sensory data directly into the human brain - granted to none other than the entertainment giant Sony." http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=mg18624944.600 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 8 15:14:29 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j38ME9V2023021; Fri, 8 Apr 2005 15:14:14 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j38ME50m022955; Fri, 8 Apr 2005 15:14:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 15:14:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: New battery technology Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2005 08:13:43 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050329131847.02c4f9f8@pop.mindspring.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050329134447.02b99090@pop.mindspring.com> <200504081142.28441.rockcast@earthlink.net> In-Reply-To: <200504081142.28441.rockcast earthlink.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j38MDnV2022812 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59053 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Standing Bear's message of Fri, 8 Apr 2005 11:42:28 -0400: Hi, [snip] >mirror fusion engine for main power. It is powered by a nuclear reactor. >If these things can get us to the moon where we can mine the tritium, then >pure fusion mirror devices become feasible. In any case, the moon's resource >of tritium will open up our system to us for exploration as it will be our [snip] I suspect you mean He3. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 8 15:28:18 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j38MS8au028510; Fri, 8 Apr 2005 15:28:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j38MS6dB028483; Fri, 8 Apr 2005 15:28:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 15:28:06 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Conventional nuclear fission plants are not cost effective Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2005 08:27:52 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <8k0e51drv4nmfh4tuqund8pdl3jdmh74ib 4ax.com> References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050329131847.02c4f9f8@pop.mindspring.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050329134447.02b99090@pop.mindspring.com> <200504081142.28441.rockcast@earthlink.net> <6.2.0.14.2.20050408130228.02c59b98@pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050408130228.02c59b98 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j38MRxau028397 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59055 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jed Rothwell's message of Fri, 08 Apr 2005 13:08:40 -0400: Hi, [snip] >Next generation nuclear reactors may well be cost effective, and they may >be reasonably safe, although no one has found a good way to get rid of the >waste yet. Actually, there may be a several ways to "get rid" of the waste. One of the most interesting I have seen is a patent that uses a technique involving a form of NMR to speed up the decay of isotopes that have a magnetic moment. That would leave those that do not, however these could be returned to a reactor, to pick up a spare neutron, and convert into an odd numbered isotope, which could then be rapidly decayed. Needless to say, the decay process itself would yield considerable energy, and some of the alpha emitters might even be acceptable energy sources for mobile applications. One could also make a very nice "perpetual" light source, by combining an alpha emitter and a fluorescent substance in a glass base material (along the lines of the T based EXIT signs). A sufficiently thick plain glass layer on the outside would absorb any x-rays, particularly if lead glass were used. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 8 15:42:55 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j38MgiZN000446; Fri, 8 Apr 2005 15:42:50 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j38Mghn7000429; Fri, 8 Apr 2005 15:42:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 15:42:43 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Conventional nuclear fission plants are not cost effective Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2005 08:42:28 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <6k1e5151ibrm2am5h5ghil3ubsakobfcmn 4ax.com> References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050329131847.02c4f9f8@pop.mindspring.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050329134447.02b99090@pop.mindspring.com> <200504081142.28441.rockcast@earthlink.net> <6.2.0.14.2.20050408130228.02c59b98@pop.mindspring.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050408133445.02c6f480@pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050408133445.02c6f480 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j38MgYZN000376 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59056 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jed Rothwell's message of Fri, 08 Apr 2005 14:00:38 -0400: Hi, [snip] >I am assuming here that some kind of effective >hydrogen buffer or giant batteries could smooth demand. [snip] At several times the energy density of lead-acid batteries, and a fraction of one percent of the cost, a possibly very cheap form of temporary energy storage, especially on a large scale, is molten salt. At the temperature difference between molten NaCl (800 ºC), and room temperature, the Carnot efficiency is quite high (72%), and Sterling engines could be used to retrieve the energy stored. The only potential problem is the chemical aggressiveness of the molten salt, but I'm sure that could be overcome. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 8 16:14:11 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j38NE1VC009708; Fri, 8 Apr 2005 16:14:02 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j38NDwJ1009679; Fri, 8 Apr 2005 16:13:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 16:13:58 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050408183005.02c0be08 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2005 18:32:25 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: AWEA estimate of global power needs Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_17129531==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59057 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_17129531==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed See the document I cited before: http://www.awea.org/news/03-04-o5-GlobalWindEnergyMarkets.pdf. Quote: "According to the report Wind Force 12 (3), boosting investment in wind energy to a level where it would provide 12% of world electricity generation by 2020 would result in annual reductions of 1,813 million tons of CO2 in 2020 from 1,245,000 MW of wind energy installed." I presume that means 1.3 million MW nameplate capacity, or 415,000 MW real. That comes to 3,842 NPRE (the units I invented equaling an average U.S. nuclear plant actual output). Earlier I estimated the total world needs ~2,000 NPRE. That was a very crude estimate; 3,842 is better. (Actually I am pleased I was within a factor of two.) With today's power buffering technology the power companies say 12% is a reasonable target for wind. Above that, they would have difficulty with load-balancing and during times when the wind does not blow. With something like hydrogen or advanced low-cost batteries they could do better. In some parts of the world, things like reversible hydro storage would already allow a higher percent of the power from wind. Denmark has so much excess wind power during winter nights they are having difficulty selling it on the European grid. You can see that above a certain level power buffering will become as important to the industry as advances in wind turbine technology.The latest goal in Denmark is to cover 50% of Danish electricity consumption by 2025. See: http://www.windpower.org/en/core.htm Wind now generates roughly as much electricity as the entire world consumed in 1920. There is so little mention of this in the American press that American newspaper readers might be excused for thinking that wind is only a marginal industry that cannot meet global levels of energy. It would be nice to see ABC news report something like: "Last year the equivalent of three average U.S. nuclear plants were added to the world's electric grid . . ." There are presently 18 NPRE of wind worldwide. Wind power growth is exponential, with an increase in the increase of ~15% per year for the last few decades. If this keeps up, wind capacity will surpass nuclear capacity a generation from now. There are presently 440 nuclear power plants in the world, and 103 in the U.S. The world average size is a little smaller than the U.S. average. See: http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/reactors.htm Wind is considerably less polluting than nuclear fission, because it does not require the mining and refining uranium. Even if we solve the nuclear waste problem, wind will still be cleaner. It does produce some pollution, during the manufacture and later the disposal of the equipment. - Jed --=====================_17129531==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" See the document I cited before:

http://www.awea.org/news/03-04-o5-GlobalWindEnergyMarkets.pdf.

Quote:

"According to the report Wind Force 12 (3), boosting investment in wind energy to a level where it would
provide 12% of world electricity generation by 2020 would result in annual reductions of 1,813 million tons of CO2 in 2020 from 1,245,000 MW of wind energy installed."

I presume that means 1.3 million MW nameplate capacity, or 415,000 MW real. That comes to 3,842 NPRE (the units I invented equaling an average U.S. nuclear plant actual output). Earlier I estimated the total world needs ~2,000 NPRE. That was a very crude estimate; 3,842 is better. (Actually I am pleased I was within a factor of two.)

With today's power buffering technology the power companies say 12% is a reasonable target for wind. Above that, they would have difficulty with load-balancing and during times when the wind does not blow. With something like hydrogen or advanced low-cost batteries they could do better. In some parts of the world, things like reversible hydro storage would already allow a higher percent of the power from wind.

Denmark has so much excess wind power during winter nights they are having difficulty selling it on the European grid. You can see that above a certain level power buffering will become as important to the industry as advances in wind turbine technology.The latest goal in Denmark is to cover 50% of Danish electricity consumption by 2025. See:

http://www.windpower.org/en/core.htm

Wind now generates roughly as much electricity as the entire world consumed in 1920. There is so little mention of this in the American press that American newspaper readers might be excused for thinking that wind is only a marginal industry that cannot meet global levels of energy. It would be nice to see ABC news report something like: "Last year the equivalent of three average U.S. nuclear plants were added to the world's electric grid . . ."

There are presently 18 NPRE of wind worldwide. Wind power growth is exponential, with an increase in the increase of ~15% per year for the last few decades. If this keeps up, wind capacity will surpass nuclear capacity a generation from now. There are presently 440 nuclear power plants in the world, and 103 in the U.S. The world average size is a little smaller than the U.S. average. See:

http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/reactors.htm

Wind is considerably less polluting than nuclear fission, because it does not require the mining and refining uranium. Even if we solve the nuclear waste problem, wind will still be cleaner. It does produce some pollution, during the manufacture and later the disposal of the equipment.

- Jed
 --=====================_17129531==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 8 16:27:10 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j38NR0Yi014031; Fri, 8 Apr 2005 16:27:01 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j38NQvH6013998; Fri, 8 Apr 2005 16:26:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 16:26:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050408191443.02bf9d40 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2005 19:19:53 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Conventional nuclear fission plants are not cost effective In-Reply-To: <8k0e51drv4nmfh4tuqund8pdl3jdmh74ib 4ax.com> References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050329131847.02c4f9f8 pop.mindspring.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050329134447.02b99090 pop.mindspring.com> <200504081142.28441.rockcast earthlink.net> <6.2.0.14.2.20050408130228.02c59b98 pop.mindspring.com> <8k0e51drv4nmfh4tuqund8pdl3jdmh74ib 4ax.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_17901937==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59058 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_17901937==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > >be reasonably safe, although no one has found a good way to get rid of the > >waste yet. > >Actually, there may be a several ways to "get rid" of the waste. >One of the most interesting I have seen is a patent that uses a >technique involving a form of NMR to speed up the decay of >isotopes that have a magnetic moment. I guess I should say no one has perfected or commercialized a good way to get rid of the waste. Actually, I think it would be perfectly OK to cram it into Yukka Mountain, but I can see why the citizens of Nevada disagree! I would say put it there but leave the tunnels unsealed. The stuff will probably be worth a fortune a hundred years from now, so let us leave at close at hand. - Jed --=====================_17901937==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

>be reasonably safe, although no one has found a good way to get rid of the
>waste yet.

Actually, there may be a several ways to "get rid" of the waste.
One of the most interesting I have seen is a patent that uses a
technique involving a form of NMR to speed up the decay of
isotopes that have a magnetic moment.

I guess I should say no one has perfected or commercialized a good way to get rid of the waste. Actually, I think it would be perfectly OK to cram it into Yukka Mountain, but I can see why the citizens of Nevada disagree! I would say put it there but leave the tunnels unsealed. The stuff will probably be worth a fortune a hundred years from now, so let us leave at close at hand.

- Jed
--=====================_17901937==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 8 16:30:45 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j38NUbYi015444; Fri, 8 Apr 2005 16:30:37 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j38NUZbt015426; Fri, 8 Apr 2005 16:30:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 16:30:35 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050408192018.02c54e30 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2005 19:30:22 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: AWEA estimate of global power needs - 15 years to catch up with nukes In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050408183005.02c0be08 pop.mindspring.com> References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050408183005.02c0be08 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_18129234==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59059 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_18129234==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I wrote: >I presume that means 1.3 million MW nameplate capacity, or 415,000 MW >real. That comes to 3,842 NPRE . . . I meant that if you crank these numbers, you get a world total electric power demand equaling ~3,842 NPRE, and they are hoping to have wind supply 12% of this total. Actually, that comes to 461 NPRE, which is almost the same as present world nuclear power. In other words, by 2020 the AWEA is hoping to catch up with the nuclear power industry. I estimated it would take a generation, and they are hoping for 15 years. It seems like a realistic goal. It would greatly reduce coal emissions. This also implies that with next-gen nuclear fission or hot fusion, the world might end up with only ~3,800 reactors. That isn't many, is it? I guess it would be better to make smaller ones to reduce the size of the grid. - Jed --=====================_18129234==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" I wrote:

I presume that means 1.3 million MW nameplate capacity, or 415,000 MW real. That comes to 3,842 NPRE . . .

I meant that if you crank these numbers, you get a world total electric power demand equaling ~3,842 NPRE, and they are hoping to have wind supply 12% of this total. Actually, that comes to 461 NPRE, which is almost the same as present world nuclear power. In other words, by 2020 the AWEA is hoping to catch up with the nuclear power industry. I estimated it would take a generation, and they are hoping for 15 years.

It seems like a realistic goal. It would greatly reduce coal emissions.

This also implies that with next-gen nuclear fission or hot fusion, the world might end up with only ~3,800 reactors. That isn't many, is it? I guess it would be better to make smaller ones to reduce the size of the grid.

- Jed
--=====================_18129234==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 8 16:54:51 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j38NsFYi021619; Fri, 8 Apr 2005 16:54:16 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j38Ns9Lr021584; Fri, 8 Apr 2005 16:54:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 16:54:09 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 16:54:09 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Coaxial Capacitor Thrustor Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59060 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Tue, 5 Apr 2005, John Berry wrote: > Your analysis makes it tempting to try and build it, except that in air > there really is a displacement current due to polarizing the air. > A force would certainly be generated no doubt, but so would a stream of > moving air. >From the Chris Tinsley era: anomalous thrust devices need not be tested in a vacuum chamber. Just put them in a big plastic bag! > view of the displacement current. > Instead of trying to cheat Newton by creating an open circuit, we should > be trying to use the vacuum as a propellant. (it would still be an open > circuit but the focus would be of applying force to the vacuum) Heh. It's much easier to think up this stuff than it is to test it! Rather than Aether thrusters... suppose we're living in a cloud of dark matter right now. How to apply a thrust? Maybe electromagnetically. One thing that I've never heard that anyone investigates: vacuum propulsion by fluid analogy to smoke-ring launchers! With smoke-ring launchers, the device uses an oscillating piston to draw in air from all directions, then periodically emit a high-speed "air glob" in just one direction. It can thrust itself along, even though the piston is pure AC. The "AC" waveform is spikes or a sawtooth. It's a DC pump that relies on nonlinear turbulence phenomena for its rectification: in some Reynolds Number regions, sucking is not the same as blowing. Our goal then becomes to find an antenna which, when given a strange AC waveform, will launch out "smoke rings" made of dark matter when pulsed in a certain way. Possible test: build a small copper tank that looks like an actual smoke-ring launcher (with a hole in one end,) then put a one-turn coil inside it and feed the coil with unipolar spikes: capacitor discharge with series resistance to create neutral damping. But maybe Dark Matter is neutral. In that case we'd want to add a strong e-field; perhaps charging the metal tank negative in order to attract positive-charged Dark Matter particles to the interior. Total rumor: Tesla bounced electromagnetic "smoke rings" off the moon, but found that their energy increased with distance travelled, and when they return to Earth (in Siberia) they knock down forests but without leaving any trace that a meteor caused the blast. (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb at amasci com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 8 16:55:15 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j38NsfYi021752; Fri, 8 Apr 2005 16:54:41 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j38NsciV021730; Fri, 8 Apr 2005 16:54:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 16:54:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 16:54:35 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Experimental Challenge!!!!! Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59061 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Wed, 6 Apr 2005, Keith Nagel wrote: > I'll give everyone a day or two to respond to the list, > and if ANYONE can post something which has some remote > whiff of truth to it, I'll post the experiment and you > can all do it for yourselves and see what I'm > talking about. Everyone talks about Bog, but how many > of you people dare to actually experiment with it? Well, I've had my nose repeatedly rubbed in the fact that I barely exist, and most of the worthwhile things I've done have happened by "accident" when I managed to get out of the way and not let my ego interfere by distorting them and then trying to take credit. I hear people speak phrases like "It was not done BY me, it was done THROUGH me." ...or "each of us is far vaster than we imagine." These phrases communicate the ideas only very poorly. They must have been first spoken by people who had similar experiences, but they don't at all describe the experiences... instead, AFTER we've had the experiences, we can say "Ah, THAT'S what that phrase means. I had no idea." (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb at amasci com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 8 16:56:26 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j38NtuYi022749; Fri, 8 Apr 2005 16:55:56 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j38Ntr1k022726; Fri, 8 Apr 2005 16:55:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 16:55:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 16:55:51 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Experimental Challenge!!!!! Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59062 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > "when you go into your church, you talk about god. > when we go into our teepee we talk TO god." > - Chief Seattle - Apparently that's a fake quote, written in 1974. Most "Chief Seattle" quotes were taken from an article manufactured by an author who was writing a Hollywood-ized movie script. The fake "speech" is full of a 60s and 70s counterculture "save the earth" belief-system. Check out these two versions below and note the difference. No one took dictation during the original 1854 speech, but someone tried to reproduce it from notes: Chief Sealth's 1854 speech, reconstructed from notes at the time http://www.synaptic.bc.ca/ejournal/smith.htm Here's the fake version which has spread all over the internet: http://www.synaptic.bc.ca/ejournal/seattle.htm Reading this reconstructed original, it makes me see the 1974 movie script as an act of selfish desecration; as white-man politics silencing Chief Sealth and putting our own words in their place. Sealth said whites and indians have two different gods. The movie script says "our god is the same god." Seattle says the indians are dying out and will soon be gone. The movie script goes on about whites polluting the earth, killing buffaloe, etc., and says nothing about: "And when the last Red Man shall have perished, and the memory of my tribe shall have become a myth among the White Men, these shores will swarm with the invisible dead of my tribe, and when your children's children think themselves alone in the field, the store, the shop, upon the highway, or in the silence of the pathless woods, they will not be alone. In all the earth there is no place dedicated to solitude. At night when the streets of your cities and villages are silent and you think them deserted, they will throng with the returning hosts that once filled them and still love this beautiful land. The White Man will never be alone. Let him be just and deal kindly with my people, for the dead are not powerless. Dead, did I say? There is no death, only a change of worlds." (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb at amasci com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 8 18:07:53 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3917JYi010255; Fri, 8 Apr 2005 18:07:19 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3917Ds4010234; Fri, 8 Apr 2005 18:07:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 18:07:13 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=W3I32Gw/EW9vFWLoTrqLkx0la+ldO7T/ZowDUf6JI9dxBa3yaWKYWGFBetcdooo063a+dkCYGIp0z/gyBGJ7aibYz8jUsG5lrpAfCBWoQlsJktcc3OakOwrq3YGa7yBGYe2A1HCT8rt4RI6XbaqeBNebrCh6zorG0i8wZ5M1wCQ= ; Message-ID: <20050409010703.962.qmail web51710.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 18:07:03 -0700 (PDT) From: Terry Blanton Subject: China Ups Reactor Plans To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <54E0YC.A.wfC.AryVCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59063 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4419313.stm "China has announced it will build 40 new nuclear reactors within the next 15 years, a big increase on earlier plans. The move is intended to boost electricity capacity as the country's economic boom has caused serious power shortages." __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 8 19:22:30 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j392LxYi002247; Fri, 8 Apr 2005 19:22:00 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j392Lv6G002230; Fri, 8 Apr 2005 19:21:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 19:21:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: Message-ID: <001d01c53caa$d6cf1690$cb41ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: Subject: Survey questions from Dr. Peter Gluck Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 22:21:20 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0019_01C53C89.4A675800" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59064 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C53C89.4A675800 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Vorts,=20 Peter Gluck is a veteran CF supporter who lives in Romania. He asked me = to forward the questions below for comment on vortex.=20 Mike Carrell ---------------------------------- Dear Friends, This was once a group dedicated to Cold Fusion and perhaps it still is. Therefore I am trying to ressurect this tradition. I am writing a paper re: "CF- a problem that must be solved" and I need your help. Please have the very kindness to answer the following 4 short questions: I have already asked a colleague whose opinion I highly respect and have received such good and stimulating answers that I have decided to make a survey- and to=20 try a synthesis of this survey- to=20 understand the situation of CF after more than 16 years of history. - WHAT IS COLD FUSION (LENR, CANR, CMNS)? - HOW DOES IT WORK? - WHAT CHANCES DOES IT HAVE TO BE SCALED UP TO A TECHNOLOGY? - WHAT HAVE WE TO DO IN ORDER TO=20 ATTAIN THIS? Please publish your answers at Vortex. Thank you, Peter Gluck ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C53C89.4A675800 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Vorts,
 
Peter Gluck is a veteran CF supporter = who lives in=20 Romania. He asked me to forward the questions below for comment on = vortex.=20
 
Mike Carrell
----------------------------------
Dear Friends,
 
This was once a group dedicated =20 to
Cold Fusion and perhaps it still = is.
Therefore I am trying to ressurect=20 this
tradition.
I am writing a paper re:
"CF- a problem that must = be=20 solved"
and I need your help.
Please have the very kindness to=20 answer
the following 4 short = questions:
I have already asked a colleague = whose
opinion I highly respect and have=20 received
such good and stimulating answers = that
 I have decided to make = a survey- and to
try a synthesis of this survey- to
understand the situation of CF after=20 more
than 16 years of history.
 
- WHAT IS COLD FUSION (LENR, = CANR,
CMNS)?
 
- HOW DOES IT WORK?
 
- WHAT CHANCES DOES IT HAVE TO = BE
SCALED UP TO A TECHNOLOGY?
 
- WHAT HAVE WE TO DO IN ORDER TO =
ATTAIN THIS?
 
Please publish your answers at = Vortex.
Thank you,
Peter = Gluck
------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C53C89.4A675800-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 8 19:31:27 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j392UjYi008338; Fri, 8 Apr 2005 19:30:46 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j392Uf15008302; Fri, 8 Apr 2005 19:30:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 19:30:41 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <001801c53cac$1b69fee0$0100007f xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: AWEA estimate of global power needs Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 21:29:54 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0014_01C53C82.1B435620" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-99.4 required=4.0 tests=HTML_MESSAGE,J_CHICKENPOX_21, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: <-SOL_B.A.oBC.R5zVCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59065 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C53C82.1B435620 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0015_01C53C82.1B435620" ------=_NextPart_001_0015_01C53C82.1B435620 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankIn the never ending game of musical chairs the ownership of Texas = power plants has an interesting history. Houston Lighting and Power = Company ( Old Houston Electric Company owned by Stone and Webster) = partnered with City of Austin ( Austin Power) and Central Power and = Light (CPL, now AES) to build the South Texas Nuclear plant near Bay = City Texas. The plant was being built by Brown & Root ( now KBR) for an = estimated cost of 1 billion dollars. B&R failed to complete the project = and Bechtol had to step in and finish it for a small increase in cost of = addn 4- 13 billion ( nobody knows the true figure but Reliant's = claim against the true costs rose over the years, what with lawyers and = lobbyists running up the costs). Meanwhile back at the ranch, HL&P morphed into Reliant Energy ( now in = big trouble with the State of California for holding thier thumb on the = meat scales) and the musical chairs began in earnest in the US power = industry. The power companies took their problems to the local lobbyists = and had the State pass the " stranded cost bill" which means the State = would allow the power companies to increase rates the amount to recover = the cost of" dumping" the old obsolete polluting power plants that would = cost more to clean up than they were worth. So, in effect, with the = state floating the bonds to provide the cash to buy the plants( bonds = would be paid from the increase revenue yearly, everybody won except the = rate payer. In Texas, where no good deed ever goes unpunished, the power companies = got their money and plus"sold" the plants they were " stuck with" ( = stranded to the public) to anyone with the money and desire. Enter = several " front " companies spun off from Reliant Energy..including = Genco and Centerpoint. Who is Genco? Why, they are the people that just bought 44% of the South = Texas Nuclear plant last week. HL& P once owned that equity and were the = most vocal about never being able to recover the cost of a nuke plant. = Austin Power bought out Central Power's ( now AES) interests. When doing business in Texas watch the magician wave his wand and = remember W got his start here as the GOV when " the tune stranded costs" = was put to music. Poor Enron, Dynegy, El Paso etc. just thought they = could take cards in the game. Tricks of the trade are catching and the great game is being played out = nationwide. Thats the state we are in with electric power production in = the USA. Its all about " capturing revenue streams" using somebody = else's money. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0015_01C53C82.1B435620 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
In the never ending game of musical chairs the ownership of Texas = power=20 plants has an interesting history. Houston Lighting and Power Company ( = Old=20 Houston Electric Company owned by Stone and Webster) partnered with City = of=20 Austin ( Austin Power) and Central Power and Light (CPL, now = AES) to=20 build the South Texas Nuclear plant near Bay City Texas. The plant was = being=20 built by Brown & Root ( now KBR) for an estimated cost of 1 billion = dollars.=20 B&R failed to complete the project and Bechtol had to step in and = finish it=20 for a small increase in cost of addn 4-=20 13 billion      ( nobody knows the true = figure but=20 Reliant's claim against the true costs rose over the years, what with = lawyers=20 and lobbyists running up the costs).
 
Meanwhile back at the ranch, HL&P morphed into Reliant Energy ( = now in=20 big trouble with the State of California for holding thier thumb on = the=20 meat scales) and the musical chairs began in earnest in the US = power=20 industry. The power companies took their problems to the local lobbyists = and had=20 the State pass the " stranded cost bill" which means the State would = allow the=20 power companies to increase rates the amount to recover the cost of" = dumping"=20 the old obsolete polluting power plants that would cost more to clean up = than=20 they were worth. So, in effect, with the state floating the bonds to = provide the=20 cash to buy the plants( bonds would be paid from the increase revenue = yearly,=20 everybody won except the rate payer.
 
In Texas, where no good deed ever goes unpunished, the power=20 companies got their money and plus"sold" the plants they=20 were " stuck with" ( stranded to the public) to anyone with = the money=20 and desire.  Enter several " front " companies spun off from = Reliant=20 Energy..including Genco and Centerpoint.
 
Who is Genco? Why, they are the people that just bought 44% of the = South=20 Texas Nuclear plant last week. HL& P once owned that equity and were = the=20 most vocal about never being able to recover the cost of a nuke plant. = Austin=20 Power bought out Central Power's ( now AES) interests.
 
When doing business in Texas watch the magician wave his wand and = remember=20 W got his start here as the GOV when " the tune stranded costs" was put = to=20 music. Poor Enron, Dynegy, El Paso etc. just thought they could take = cards in=20 the game.
 
Tricks of the trade are catching and the great game is being played = out=20 nationwide. Thats the state we are in with electric power production in = the USA.=20 Its all about " capturing revenue streams" using somebody else's = money.
 
Richard
------=_NextPart_001_0015_01C53C82.1B435620-- ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C53C82.1B435620 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <001301c53cac$04058800$0100007f xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C53C82.1B435620-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 8 19:33:44 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j392XAYi010610; Fri, 8 Apr 2005 19:33:10 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j392X9M4010587; Fri, 8 Apr 2005 19:33:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 19:33:09 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <410-2200546923241640 ix.netcom.com> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: aki ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.1.47.0 (Windows) From: "Akira Kawasaki" To: "vortex-l" Subject: FW: WHAT'S NEW Friday, April 08, 2005 Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 19:32:41 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: c4cc7f5f697e8746f66dc3a06d5924d821864190f7ac374aaf31278acac75671daeb3e8d137e934c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 216.175.82.177 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59066 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > From: What's New > To: Akira Kawasaki Date: 4/8/2005 1:24:07 PM Subject: WHAT'S NEW Friday, April 08, 2005 WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 8 Apr 05 Tucson, AZ 1. PROLIFERATION: JUST WHAT THE WORLD NEEDS, MORE RELIABLE NUKES. Three years ago, Pentagon planners hatched the infamous Nuclear Posture Review, a secret plan to publicly oppose nuclear proliferation, while developing a new class of small nuclear weapons meant to blur the line between nuclear and conventional http://www.aps.org/WN/WN02/wn031502.cfm. However, free people don't do secrecy well, and the plan was leaked, killing it. No matter, Linton Brooks, the head of the National Nuclear Security Administration, the designated Dr. Strangelove, keeps trying new plans looking for ones he can sell to David Hobson (R-OH), the powerful chair of the House Energy and Water Appropriations Subcommittee, that rarest of fiscal conservatives who will block a dumb weapons program. A year ago it was a new pit facility that can make pits for a new nuclear bunker-buster. Brooks is now pushing for a warhead so reliable that it could be deployed without testing. This is the old Reliable Replacement Warhead plan proposed 30 years ago. It's hard to oppose reliability but the first atomic bomb used in anger was an untested design. 2. MARS: SPIRIT AND OPPORTUNITY JUST KEEP GOING, AND GOING... NASA is pushing on with plans to stick the next president with a pointless trillion-dollar mission to put humans on Mars or be remembered for ending human space flight. Locked in space suits, astronauts would have only the sense of sight. Meanwhile operations of the twin rovers have been extended another 18 months. They don't need air, water, or space suits. They live on sunlight, never rest, never complain, and have better eyes than humans. When they finally wear out, their switches will be turned off. Maybe it wouldn't be so bad to be remembered as the President who led America into an era of truly modern space exploration where no human can ever set foot. 3. 2005 TROTTER PRIZE: AN AWARD FOR OVERLAPPING THE MAGISTERIA. In February http://www.aps.org/WN/WN05/wn022505.cfm, WN commented on a session at this year's AAAS meeting in Washington DC devoted to the proposition that science and religion are "non-overlapping magisteria." But at Texas A&M they see it a little differently: the Trotter Prize is awarded for "illuminating the connection between science and religion." How better to illustrate the overlap than to give the award this year to one of the nation's top pseudoscientists, Dr. William Demski, a senior fellow of the Discovery Institute, often regarded as the leading intelligent design theorist. The Intelligent-Design movement seeks to portray intelligent-design as science. However, by resorting to a supernatural explanation it clearly belongs in some other magisteria. THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND. Opinions are the author's and not necessarily shared by the University of Maryland, but they should be. --- Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.aps.org/WN To subscribe, send a blank e-mail to: From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 8 20:52:15 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j393pjJ6000567; Fri, 8 Apr 2005 20:51:45 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j393phO0000554; Fri, 8 Apr 2005 20:51:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 20:51:43 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Experimental Challenge!!!!! Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 23:53:40 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: <6HV3RB.A.mI.PF1VCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59067 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A Hi Bill. You write: >Well, I've had my nose repeatedly rubbed in the fact that I barely exist Perhaps you should post to your list more than once every two months. you're ignoring us, not the other way around... Seriously, I understand what you're saying, it's not quite what I had in mind, but good 'nuff. Intentional ego death is a good way to get your conscious brain into the appropriate state. I was kinda hoping for Thomas Malloy to post an answer, but being the biggest zealot it's painfully clear his hand is the emptiest. I'll post tomorrow. Still some time, Tom. K. PS: Didn't see that Chief Seattle quote in either speech. It was sad reading, surely, as Jed points out most folks on the short end of the stick come to realize that old Bog first helps those who help themselves. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 8 21:39:56 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j394dGE1013915; Fri, 8 Apr 2005 21:39:17 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j394dBt7013889; Fri, 8 Apr 2005 21:39:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 21:39:11 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Standing Bear To: vortex-l eskimo.com, Robin van Spaandonk Subject: Re: New battery technology Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2005 00:47:09 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 References: <200504081142.28441.rockcast@earthlink.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200504090047.09871.rockcast earthlink.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59068 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Friday 08 April 2005 18:13, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > In reply to Standing Bear's message of Fri, 8 Apr 2005 11:42:28 > -0400: > Hi, > [snip] > > >mirror fusion engine for main power. It is powered by a nuclear reactor. > >If these things can get us to the moon where we can mine the tritium, then > >pure fusion mirror devices become feasible. In any case, the moon's > > resource of tritium will open up our system to us for exploration as it > > will be our > > [snip] > I suspect you mean He3. > > Regards, > > > Robin van Spaandonk > Yes Robin, that is what I really meant, just had not thought of it, and wanted to get the letter written before going grocery shopping. I read the various responses to my reply to the battery tech post. I had heard all of Jed's comments before, but they were out of the mouths of other people back in the 1970's. It was almost as if it was scripted as an automatic response to a Pavlovian stimulus. Nuke plants were expensive for various reasons, not the least of which was the cost to defend against the various harrassment litigations brought by the critics of the industry on every pretext imaginable. This litigation expense was considerable and was borne by the power industry and ultimately its ratepayers....the defense part of it. The offense was paid partly from foreign enemy treasuries and partly from the pockets of useful fools who were taken in by faulted logic based on fear and half truths. The detractors of nuclear power in this case deliberately caused financial and legal problems for the industry, and then turned and slyly stated that the industry's legal problems were reason enough not to have that industry. The nuclear power constructing utilities realized that by the late 60's and early seventies the national political will for further plant construction had evaporated in the social ferment and draft dodger mentality of the Viet-Nam war. To build a new nuke plant required many permits, and the permit process came to be controlled by avowed enemies of the industry, and in reality, enemies of the people. With no way to legally build plants, the industry refocused on dirtier but in a twisted logical way still legal fossil fuel facilities. The industry did want to build these plants; but they were prevented from doing so by former opponents who had traded their levis for business suits and their signs for MBA. Then these same new 'MBA's now come with the empty lies that industry did not want to do it. I suppose Pol Pot's victims in Cambodia did not want to live either. Many of these reluctant fossil fuel plants were coal. Ask any real civil engineer and he will tell you that coal is a garbage can. More radiation and certainly more noxious chemicals are released by coal burning facilities every day than one could plausibly imagine. Coal plants create much more radiation pollution than any nuclear plant in normal operation. And this radiation is more insidious. Take radon, for instance. It is a gas! It is in all coal. And it is released unchanged when coal is burned, as it is a chemically inactive gas that was trapped in coal bearing seams where it was created by natural decay of unstable naturally occuring elements. The end of the war left a shadow 'army' of luddites and traitors with idealogically nowhere to go. Rather than see them disperse, their handlers sought new directions for those that they could hang on to. Anti nuclear power and environmental concerns fit the bill, as successful campaigns in this could weaken our energy position, making potentially more valuable the vast manual labor resources of China. It became a quiet revolution as operating contrary to our own national interest became mainstream 'chic'. Veterans were frozen out of the job market by a button down collar army of former draft dodgers and avoiders who had gone to college in the war years and got the good jobs and promotions first, and later set the agenda in local businesses all over the country. Patriotism was not 'chic'. Quiche was 'chic' Treason had become mainstream, and quietly validated Von Clausewitz's dictum about what happens to a state when treason prospers. China is now selling that labor to an energy starved world. You buy products of it every day in your local Wal-Mart store. The loss of the war had another by product. By running away from our responsibilities in South Viet-Nam, we further lost respect in the world. Now tin horn dictators everywhere took advantage of the situation. OPEC would not have dared to do in 1949 what they did in 1973! Neither would we then in 1949 have stood by while the the Panama Canal was taken from us the way it was taken in the Carter years by a cabal of tinhorn Panamanian politicos and internal American traitors masquerading as 'progressive statesmen'. Now we have the spectacle of Chinese People's Army front companies operating the Panama Canal. Suppose these folks would be disposed to allow passage of our military when it became expedient for us and not so much for them? We pay much more for our petrol than we did, in part because of our failure in that war, and in part because of our failure against the enemy within! Is'nt it odd that nobody seems to notice that China is now building nuclear plants on an emergency basis. They know that high energy prices will kill prosperity. Look what they did to us! I bet that very very few demonstrators against this policy will be allowed the freedoms in China that we allowed the maoists here. They will rightly be called economic saboteurs and imprisoned or shot. Our energy needs expanded while our nuclear generating capacity lagged. The new energy had to come from somewhere, so it came from more oil production. But the oil is running out, and there simply is not enough production to satisfy demand at a stable price, so the price rises. That goes double because 'environmentalists' shut down refineries in this country in order to dampen our supplies. This was done years ago so and the plants were dismantled so that they could not be brought back. This has hit us hard over the last year. I can assure you that it will hit poorer nations harder. Had there been more and sufficient nuclear production, oil prices would have been lower on lower demand requirements; and the greater energy production in this country would have translated itself into greater job retention and expansion in our economy. They wholistically all work together. The piper is now starting to be paid. Watch how the dollar falls and the others rise. Watch how the Chinese are buying our commercial paper. They have quite a lot of it now. Only they know the day and the hour that the new bell of the the new Black Thursday of 1929 will toll when the Chinese decide to sell. Probably at the same time they decide to invade Taiwan and South Korea. I have no beef against wind power. As an engineer, power is power. Wind farms like the ones around Barstow, California do not pollute. And if some idiot executive tries to bend the laws of physics with turbine blade construction like at Rancho Seco in California, the result will be probably just a malfunctioning tower or two instead of 20 percent of California's base generating power while the system(s) are down for repair. Yes, the nuclear power industry has had its share of charlatans seeking glory on taxpayer and ratepayer funds. Nuclear plants are large projects. Any project large enough literally swells the gonads of ambitious souls seeking fortune and/or advantage, and Rancho Seco and the Silver Bridge are all the same to them. Personally, I think that electrical power generation is too important to leave in the hands of private concerns that left to themselves inexorably become monopolies. This is more the province of government to site the plants, standardize their design, and run them for the good of all, not just some favored few. We will have need of the nuclear option whatever we build. Without progress in nuclear research, we will never have the space boosters we need in order to find among our near planetary neighbors the new resources that we will need. Wind research, while nice, will not give us our space program. Space is the high ground, and go there we must, lest we find the Chinese waiting for us there as well. Mandarin is difficult to learn, I would rather spare my grandchildren the necessity of learning it, or the cost to them of not learning it in another future 'interesting time'. Standing Bear From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 8 21:43:10 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j394gcE1015168; Fri, 8 Apr 2005 21:42:38 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j394gaUD015150; Fri, 8 Apr 2005 21:42:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 21:42:36 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Survey questions from Dr. Peter Gluck Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2005 14:42:28 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <001d01c53caa$d6cf1690$cb41ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> In-Reply-To: <001d01c53caa$d6cf1690$cb41ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j394gWE1015123 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59069 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In reply to Mike Carrell's message of Fri, 8 Apr 2005 22:21:20 -0400: Hi, [snip] >- WHAT IS COLD FUSION (LENR, CANR, >CMNS)? Historically the definition has come to be any process generating heat beyond normal chemistry, &/or resulting in transmutation of elements, that happens at near room temperature. However I would tighten the definition to "any nuclear process", in light of the work of Mills (even though hydrino formation may well be an intermediary step in many of these new nuclear processes). > >- HOW DOES IT WORK? Chubb, Hydrino, Hydrex, EV (Shoulders). The last most likely responsible for transmutation where much heavier elements are produced. The first most likely primarily responsible for pure He4 production when D is used. The middle two would likely explain excess heat where little or no transmutation takes place. > >- WHAT CHANCES DOES IT HAVE TO BE >SCALED UP TO A TECHNOLOGY? Excellent, particularly when combined with latest progress in nanotechnology, which can provide billions of copies of small "reactors", combining their output to achieve useful results. > >- WHAT HAVE WE TO DO IN ORDER TO >ATTAIN THIS? Concentrate research in each of the three main directions: 1) Chubb 2) Hydrino/Hydrex and similar (e.g. de Geus). 3) EVs. 4) Electrical implosion? (only one report, may also be example of 3). It is necessary to have an understanding of the potentials and limits of each technology. Benefits Disadvantages 1) Clean, compact, requires greatest primarily heat knowledge of materials science, restricted transmutations 2) Primarily heat nuclear reactions occasional nuclear reactions difficult to control? 3) Massive transmutations possible, Rapid consumption of less heat. materials. When the actual mechanisms are better understood, engineering for optimal conditions becomes possible. Personally, I would concentrate on 2 first, because it is best understood, and has the potential to provide ample clean energy while researching the others. Nr. 1 will likely be the last to be optimised. Nr. 3 can produce strong results without too much difficulty, yet will probably be dirty, possibly dangerous, and hard to make consistently self sustaining. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 9 07:09:33 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j39E93Ro015907; Sat, 9 Apr 2005 07:09:03 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j39E917A015876; Sat, 9 Apr 2005 07:09:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2005 07:09:01 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050409151001.0068e5bc pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2005 15:10:01 +0000 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: ...water into wine... Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59070 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: The following section continues the analysis started in previous posts. =========================================== With reference to the volume change versus temperature relation shown in the third Figure on the page at..... http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/water/strange.html#tv ......I now realise that Vesica Pisces is a bit of a red herring (pun intended) and that from a mechanics point of view [though not perhaps from a mystical pov ;-) ] there is a more revealing way of expressing this relation. The Vesica Pisces (VP) relation on Professor Chaplin's web-site is, V = a constant.(T)^(sq.rt 3) where V is the volume increase above the volume at 4 degrees Centigrade T is the temperature degrees above 4 deg C. Since, for practical purposes the specific heat of water is constant between 4 and 100 deg C we can substitute the variable Energy (E) for temperature in the above equation. V = a constant.(E)^(sq.rt 3) But V = L^3, so substituting for V and squaring both sides gives, L^6 = a constant.(E)^3 Taking the cube root of both sides gives, L^2 = a constant.E But L^2 (more specifically dL^2) is a linear strain energy epsilon squared, i.e. a one dimensional strain energy. How does this fit in with what has gone before in previous posts in this thread? I am delighted to say it fits like Cinderella's slipper. 8-) Allowing the volume of water to expand by lowering the Compreture (increasing the temperature} leads to a three-dimensional strain-energy requirement by the quasi-Solid phase (the molecular cell phase) in relative compression. But two of these strain- energy dimensions are provided by the compression of the quasi-Fluid two-dimensional phase in relative tension. This leaves a one-dimensional strain energy to be provided. To put it in another way. Two thirds of the energy needed to expand the water between 4 deg and 100 deg C is provided internally by a shift in the internal energy balances between phases and the remaining one third is provided externally by us. =========================================== The above is the technical bit - but it is worth while considering the implications of the way it was found. Now nothing is easier than playing around with the algebra in physics to get different forms. The trouble is, one has to have an insight into what the form means. For example, consider that famous expression [1 - v^2/c^2] If we rewrite it as [(c^2 - v^2)/c^2] then any mathematically unchallenged schoolboy will immediately want to recast the (c^2 - v^2) as (c - v).(c + v). But what does that mean physically. Until we can have some kind of physical model in our minds - something like a velocity strain, say [whatever that might mean ;-)] then there is no point is presenting it in that way. Now it is possible to go from the maths to the physics but it's easier to go from the physics to the mathematics and when one does the maths generally becomes so simple that it virtually disappears. Indeed its disappearance is a sign that one is looking at the phenomena face to face so to speak - and not through a glass, darkly. In the above case we have strain energy = a constant. calorific energy. If we measure strain energy and calorific energy in the same unit then the constant becomes 1 and the maths has completely evapourated. In the case of the VP relation above, it was an ability to visualise water as a cellular structure with the water molecules phase as the three dimensional material analogous to clay particles, and the cell interaction phase as the two-dimensional skin phase analogous to high pF pore water that gave insight into the need to recast the VP graph in simpler dimensional terms. Cheers Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 9 07:35:43 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j39EYwRo030967; Sat, 9 Apr 2005 07:35:03 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j39EYuqs030946; Sat, 9 Apr 2005 07:34:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2005 07:34:56 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2005 06:36:29 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: OT: Question regarding condoms Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59071 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 4:16 PM 4/8/5, Jed Rothwell wrote: >Horace Heffner wrote: > >>It is perfectly logical that condom use will slow the spread of aids. It >>does not take an expert to see that. Further, the more the onslaught is >>delayed, the larger the number of people who will be saved by medical >>advances if and when they come. > >You are missing the point. No, I made my point. You are attemtping to change the discussion to avoid the point. Condums are not safe. They break. They have defect rates. It is reckless to call them safe. The faillure rate and its effect should be published information, just like warnings on cigarettes. If you tell people something is safe then they feel free to do it. If you tell people somehing is safe when you know it is not, when in fact it can kill them, then this is reckless or worse. >People are only saved by medical advances in >rich nations. In most of the world there is no treatment at all -- not even >aspirin. This means the use of the condom not only slows the spread of >AIDS; it reverses it. You can only diminish the spread rate, not reverse it. You can not undo an AIDS infection. It is true the percentage of the population with the disease can eventually drop when the infected die off faster than new infections occur, but still the infection rate upon exposure has to be dropped to a very low percentage to accomplish that if the exposure rate is high. >People who get the disease die off rapidly, or they >become too sick to have sex. > >In advanced countries such as Japan where there is treatment and universal >health care, AIDS is not increasing. The number of infections in Japan is >holding steady at 12,000, with fewer than 500 deaths per year. The >onslaught has not only been delayed; it has been ended, mainly by the use >of condoms. Now this is amazing and very interesting, if true. It is difficult to believe the use of condoms is the main factor. Condoms are just not that reliable. There must be some other kind of prophylaxis involved. Maybe there is a natural protection in the Japanese gene pool? Maybe the treatment drugs being used prevent the spread of infection? If so, this would be a significant development. Also, the above numbers seem to indicate people with AIDS live about 25 years in Japan. This too is hard to belive. These numbers are amazing if true. One also has to wonder if the sex industry in Japan has some kind of influence on the reporting. >There is no longer any threat that AIDS will become endemic in >Japan, even though the society is rife with prostitution. There would be no >threat from AIDS in the U.S. if we had universal health care and sane sex >education. All this info on Japan is the best information you have provided, but is hard to believe, unless there is some other kind of prophylaxis involved due to genetics or health care in Japan, possibly similar to the prophylaxis that can be obtained prenatally. >Unfortunately a fifth of our people do not get proper care. How does medical care affect the spread rate? There is no cure. Prolonging the life of those with AIDS should only increase the rate at which it spreads. The better the health care the more AIDS is spread by those infected because they live longer, unless there is some factor more effective than condoms that directly affects the ability of the afflicted to spread the disease. Perhaps those diagnosed in Japan are more responsible than people in the US? >This >is reflected in health statistics such as chronic disease, infant >mortality, and longevity, which are far behind other major developed >nations, not to mention Brunei, Cyprus, Czech Republic, Finland, Ireland, >Israel, Italy, Luxembourg, Malta, Portugal, San Marino, Singapore, >Slovenia, Spain and Cuba. (Overall the U.S. is number 30 in infant >mortality, and it is the only developed country in which the numbers are >getting worse.) > >If condoms did not exist, and someone invented them now, everyone would >assume this means the end of the AIDS epidemic. It would be considered a >cure. A treatment which reduces the chances of getting an infectious >disease by a factor of 10 or 20 will eventually eliminate the disease. This >rivals the effectiveness of the measles vaccine, which 98%. >(http://www.ilshrestha.com.np/vaccine.html) This is a competely different thing! What a bogus argument! The 98 percent vaccine effectiveness refers to indiviuals, not to exposures! There is a colossal difference! So, at worst case, you wipe out the 2 percent of the population for which the vaccine is not effective and that's not so big a deal. This differs totaly from a case where two percent of the *exposures* result in infection, and where exposure occurs on a regular and frequent basis. In the second case the entire population can be consumed if the infection rate is high enough to overcome the birth rate. Vaccines are seldom 100% >effective, plus there are always a few people who refuse to be vaccinated, >but despite this gap vaccines eventually eliminate an infectious disease. >Condoms would eliminate AIDS if they were widely used, even though >individuals would still be at risk, and many would still die from condom >failures. Well, here you make my point. Condoms are not "safe". > > >>The principle conclusion I've drawn is that no action should be taken, >>especially a misleading action, which draws people out of safe populations >>and into populations at risk. > >People do not have sex because you "suggest" they should, or you reassure >them it is safe. Nobody "draws them out." If you tell people something is safe then they feel free to do it. If you tell people somehing is safe when you know it is not, when in fact it can kill them, then this is reckless or worse. >They have sex no matter what, at >all times and places, even when Draconian penalties are imposed for >adultery. In Africa, nature has imposed the most Draconian punishment >imaginable: agonizing death by AIDS. Everyone there knows that, but they go >on having sex anyway. If that threat is not enough, what makes you think >advice would affect their behavior? My point was that disinformation will hurt, not that any specific advice will help. I recommended only that misinformation be avoided. Further, you are completely wrong in your assesment that *everyone* is in a risky promiscuous group. The number of people who are chaste or monogamous is a lot bigger than zero. > >Having said that, I agree that advice and education should be offered. It >will do some good, and save lives. But condoms are much more effective. If >you must choose one or the other, you should definitely go with condoms. My point is only that condoms should not be sold as safe - regardless of the above points, which are irrelevant to what I have said. Condoms are not safe. They can break. There *is* a failure rate in practice that is not commonly known. There is a cumulative risk to condom use of which most people are not aware. Most people are not aware of the Russian roulette effect, or Murphy's (real) law, or similar cumulative or random-walk effects. In my opinion, this is why many gamblers are such suckers, and why condoms are not as safe as they are made to appear. It is not just advice and education, it is spoecific information that should be provided and is not. Not only that, what is extremely dangerous, using condoms with a partner who has AIDS, should not be called "safe". Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 9 07:35:58 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j39EZERo031106; Sat, 9 Apr 2005 07:35:14 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j39EZ7Uo031049; Sat, 9 Apr 2005 07:35:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2005 07:35:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2005 06:36:37 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Conventional nuclear fission plants are not cost effective Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j39EYwRo030962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59072 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 8:42 AM 4/9/5, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >At several times the energy density of lead-acid batteries, and a >fraction of one percent of the cost, a possibly very cheap form of >temporary energy storage, especially on a large scale, is molten >salt. At the temperature difference between molten NaCl (800 ºC), >and room temperature, the Carnot efficiency is quite high (72%), >and Sterling engines could be used to retrieve the energy stored. > >The only potential problem is the chemical aggressiveness of the >molten salt, but I'm sure that could be overcome. Storage of *both* the heat and cold generated by air liquifaction might be a sensible way to go. Liquid air is easy to store at high efficiency, and heat from compression can be stored in thermal wells or by using salt phase exchange, though a much lower melting point salt would have to be used to directly obtain the heat from the compression. I would expect thermal wells to be cheaper than salt tanks, and if drilled deep enough, they produce geothermal heat also. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 9 07:36:06 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j39EZJRo031133; Sat, 9 Apr 2005 07:35:23 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j39EZBAa031087; Sat, 9 Apr 2005 07:35:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2005 07:35:11 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2005 06:36:41 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Coaxial Capacitor Thrustor Resent-Message-ID: <-1XLxB.A.flH.dg-VCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59073 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 4:54 PM 4/8/5, William Beaty wrote: >On Tue, 5 Apr 2005, John Berry wrote: > >> Your analysis makes it tempting to try and build it, except that in air >> there really is a displacement current due to polarizing the air. >> A force would certainly be generated no doubt, but so would a stream of >> moving air. > >>From the Chris Tinsley era: anomalous thrust devices need not be tested >in a vacuum chamber. Just put them in a big plastic bag! I've had to place devices in plastic foam boxes to find the source of the "anomalous" thrust, which turned out to be due to aerodynamics of airflow around the object which was heated by current flow. Plastic bags have aerodynamics of their own, as well as static electric effects, and bouyancy effects. Anything using DC is also hard to verify unless a 360 arc can be repeated. ------------ | | | --------------------------------- |===T-------------------------------- | | --------------------------------- | | ------------ Note - T represents power, oscillator, and toroidal coil unit Fig. 3 - Closed ended coaxial drive with bulged power housing As noted in Fig. 3 of the earlier post the end of the thruster can be capped off provided the central conductor terminates well before the end of the outer sheath. There would be no significant reduction in thrust due to radio wave emission. A capped device should not have any significant emissions. It could even be evacuated in order to achieve good insulation and avoid arcovers. > >> view of the displacement current. >> Instead of trying to cheat Newton by creating an open circuit, we should >> be trying to use the vacuum as a propellant. (it would still be an open >> circuit but the focus would be of applying force to the vacuum) > >Heh. It's much easier to think up this stuff than it is to test it! [snip] For sure. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 9 08:38:56 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j39FcLRo019290; Sat, 9 Apr 2005 08:38:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j39Fb01L018401; Sat, 9 Apr 2005 08:37:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2005 08:37:00 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <7669066.1113061016832.JavaMail.root wamui02.slb.atl.earthlink.net> Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2005 11:36:56 -0400 (GMT-04:00) From: Jed Rothwell Reply-To: Jed Rothwell To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: New battery technology Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Earthlink Zoo Mail 1.0 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59074 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Standing Bear wrote: > and half truths. The detractors of nuclear power in this case deliberately > caused financial and legal problems for the industry . . . The legal problems were caused by the Three Mile Island accident. It was the most expensive industrial accident in history by far. It nearly bankrupted the power company. The detractors never cause 0.01% as much trouble as the people who designed that plant, and the Federal regulators who allowed it to operate. It was an accident waiting to happen. Two identical accidents occured in plants of the same design previously, but nothing was done to correct the problem. The third time, it lead to a meltdown, which destroyed half the core. > The nuclear power constructing utilities realized that by the > late 60's and early seventies the national political will for further plant > construction had evaporated in the social ferment and draft dodger mentality of the Viet-Nam war. Plant construction stopped all over the world, including in Japan and Russia, which were not affected by the Viet-Nam war or draft dodger mentality. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 9 09:46:04 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j39GjWRo013488; Sat, 9 Apr 2005 09:45:32 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j39GiAZX013152; Sat, 9 Apr 2005 09:44:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2005 09:44:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <15657279.1113065047678.JavaMail.root wamui02.slb.atl.earthlink.net> Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2005 12:44:07 -0400 (EDT) From: Jed Rothwell Reply-To: Jed Rothwell To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: OT: Question regarding condoms Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Earthlink Zoo Mail 1.0 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59075 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner writes: > No, I made my point. You are attemtping to change the discussion to avoid > the point. Condums are not safe. They break. They have defect rates. It > is reckless to call them safe. All technology is risky. Cars have defects and they break too, and people drive cars much more often than they have sex, but we are not all of us killed in car accidents. The accident rate is very low, so there is little chance you will be killed in a car. The accident rate for condoms is also very low, especially when they include virucides. An ordinary person can go to prostitutes in Japan 50 times a year for 20 years without any significant risk of a condom failure. For one thing, even when they fail you still have a good chance of avoiding disease. This is analogous to saying that even when a car skids goes out of control, you still have a chance of recovering without an accident. > The failure rate and its effect should be > published information, just like warnings on cigarettes. Warnings are printed on condoms, along with instructions. The failure rate is effectively zero for the Japanese products; all of the problems are caused by user errors. > You can only diminish the spread rate, not reverse it. You can not undo an > AIDS infection. It is true the percentage of the population with the > disease can eventually drop when the infected die off faster than new > infections occur, but still the infection rate upon exposure has to be > dropped to a very low percentage to accomplish that if the exposure rate is > high. As long as people die off faster than new infections occur, the spread rate will decline. >In advanced countries such as Japan where there is treatment and universal >health care, AIDS is not increasing. The number of infections in Japan is >holding steady at 12,000, with fewer than 500 deaths per year. The >onslaught has not only been delayed; it has been ended, mainly by the use >of condoms. > >> Now this is amazing and very interesting, if true. It is difficult to >> believe the use of condoms is the main factor. Why is it difficult to believe? It is only difficult for you, because you refuse to look at the facts. Anyone familiar with STD would not find it at all difficult. > Condoms are just not that > reliable. Oh yes they are. > There must be some other kind of prophylaxis involved. Maybe > there is a natural protection in the Japanese gene pool? No there isn't, and frankly that is a ridiculous suggestion. How could there be? In any case, people in other Asian countries are dying of AIDS by hundreds of thousands. > Maybe the treatment drugs being used prevent the spread of infection? Yes. As I said in a previous message, the drugs reduce the level of viruses in the body so much, sexual partners are much less likely to get the disease. This is true in the U.S. and everywhere people are treated. But poor people in the U.S. and elsewhere are not treated. > Also, the above numbers seem to indicate people with AIDS live about 25 years in Japan. No one knows how long they will live. > This too is hard > to belive. These numbers are amazing if true. One also has to wonder if > the sex industry in Japan has some kind of influence on the reporting. That is inconceivable! Public health statistics in Japan absolutely reliable, and the overall health care system is the best in the world. The sex industry could no more cover up AIDS than it could cover up murders. > All this info on Japan is the best information you have provided, but is > hard to believe, unless there is some other kind of prophylaxis involved > due to genetics or health care in Japan, possibly similar to the > prophylaxis that can be obtained prenatally. Indeed, health care and education make a huge difference! They teach children about sex and they tell them to use condoms. That's the whole point. When you do that with an entire population, aids does not spread. We do not do that in the U.S. as much, which is why our children are 150 times more likely to get AIDS. Also, prostitutes in Japan have access to health care, so they find out if they have AIDS, and they quit the business. prostitutes in the U.S. and other countries cannot afford doctors. Prenatal prophylaxis is not needed as far as I know. But I am not sure. I know that when the mother gives birth they use AZT to keep the baby from being infected. > >Unfortunately a fifth of our people do not get proper care. > > How does medical care affect the spread rate? There is no cure. Medical care stops the disease from spreading by giving people condoms. That is the only effective method. There is a cure for AIDS nowadays. AIDS is now a very serious, life-threatening chronic condition like diabetes, rather than a death sentence. The cure is very expensive, it does not work with every patient, and no one knows how long it will last. > Prolonging the life of those with AIDS should only increase the rate at > which it spreads. Nope. As I said, the risk to sexual partners is reduced. Also, most patients who know they have the disease will act responsibly, and avoid spreading it, by using condoms and virucides. Together, they make it possible to have a lifetime of sex with very little chance of infection -- or pregnancy, for that matter. > The better the health care the more AIDS is spread by > those infected because they live longer, unless there is some factor more > effective than condoms . . . You are missing the point: the statistic prove that CONDOMS ARE EFFECTIVE ENOUGH. You are begging the question (arguing in a circle). You start off with the assumption that they are not safe, but the statistics show clearly that they are. Virucides help. AZT also helps, but the best defense by far is the condom. Judging by the Japanese stats, the risk of infection is reduced to roughly 100 times greater that the risk of a fatal automobile accident. That's risky, but nowhere near as risky as unprotected sex. > Perhaps those diagnosed in Japan are more responsible than people in the US? I wouldn't blame the patients for the disease -- or the cure. It is the medical system and the government that is more responsible. They have first world health care, and we have third world health care even worse than Cuba's. What would you expect? People die from every cause in the U.S. at a much higher rate than in Japan or any European country. When you refuse to treat people, or take x-rays, provide basic medicine, or give mothers prenatal care, obviously you end up with a population afflicted by chronic and dangerous health problems, heart attacks and so on. Also, we eat far too much, and the quality of the food is dreadful. > This is a competely different thing! What a bogus argument! The 98 > percent vaccine effectiveness refers to individuals, not to exposures! I do not understand your point. People do not get diseases unless they are exposed to them. In a population of people inoculated against measles, 2% will get the disease anyway. > There is a colossal difference! So, at worst case, you wipe out the 2 > percent of the population for which the vaccine is not effective and that's > not so big a deal. Well, measles does not kill often. But the infection does not stop after 2% of the population gets it. There is always new population. The turnover is about 2% per year. So 2% of the new population (children) continue to get measles every year, year after year, for as long as the virus survives. AIDS works the same way. Every year there are a million new young adults, and some are promiscuous. The measles vaccine is adminstered once (or 3 times, actually) and condoms have to administered every time promiscuous people have dangerous sex. But even a libertine would only do a few thousand times in his life, and the failure rate of condoms is so low the chances of getting aids in those few thousand times is practically nil. In Japan, that is. If you go to a country where nearly all prostitutes are infected, then the chances are much higher, obviously. > This differs totaly from a case where two percent of > the *exposures* result in infection . . . That's impossible. The device failure rate is not 2%. The stats quoted earlier were for contraceptive failure over one year. That is a completely different number. I am not sure what that number is -- number of couples using condoms who experience failure, or the number who become pregnant, or what. But anyway, people do not have dangerous sex with prostitutes anywhere near as often as couples have sex which might lead to pregnancy. And the number of people who engage in risky sex is much smaller than the number who are married normally. Also, any healthy woman can get pregnant when a condom fails, whereas only a tiny number of prostitutes in Japan can give you AIDS when a condom fails. That 2% (whatever it represents) is probably reduced by 2 or 3 orders of magnitude, meaning a libertine can go for a lifetime in Japan without infection. > . . . and where exposure occurs on a regular and frequent basis. Exposure is extremely infrequent, and not very regular for most people. >> People do not have sex because you "suggest" they should, or you reassure >> them it is safe. Nobody "draws them out." > > If you tell people something is safe then they feel free to do it. I promise you: people who risk AIDS do not listen to anyone about anything. They do not follow advice or consider risk. The best you can hope for is that they will use condoms. They do that anyway in Japan. > My point is only that condoms should not be sold as safe - regardless of > the above points, which are irrelevant to what I have said. Condoms are > not safe. They can break. Yes, and airplanes can crash, and cars can explode. But the chances of a Japanese condom breaking in just the wrong time, with the wrong partner, along with a complete failure of the built-in virucide are so small, you need not worry about them. It probably happens no more than 10 times a year in Japan. (And another 140 people are infected because they do not use condoms at all.) Other risks are far higher. 3,000 pedestrians are killed there every year slipping on wet sidewalks. Suppose they let you broadcast your message to Japanese schools, bars and houses of prostitution: "Condoms are not safe! Don't depend on them! Refrain from sex instead!" I know exactly what would happen if you succeeded. The infection rate would increase by a factor of 150, and 22,000 more people a year would die. In other words, Japan would soon be as bad as off as the U.S. is. The disinformation and ignorance you are promoting is killing 44,000 people a year in the U.S. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 9 09:52:24 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j39GpsRo015394; Sat, 9 Apr 2005 09:51:54 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j39GoTcV015058; Sat, 9 Apr 2005 09:50:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2005 09:50:29 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: OT: Question regarding condoms Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2005 12:52:29 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59076 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace writes: >Maybe there is a natural protection ( against AIDS )in the Japanese gene pool? Actually, I think it is more due to the insularity of the Japanese culture, along with sexual mores. Jed seems to describe Japan as some hotbed of lust, but looking at the grossly declining birth rate I wonder about this (grin). OTOH, those of European descent do have a natural immunity to AIDS due to our genes. It seems the AIDS virus infects the immune system by inserting itself into the blood cells, which carry the virus throughout the body. In order to accomplish this feat, the virus needs to fit through tiny pores in the blood cell. It happens that ~5-10% of Europeans have very small pores, making it impossible for the virus to fit and infect. This was discovered by analysis of gay men who survived the initial wave of infections here in America. How did this situation come about? Well, I'll risk being burned at the stake for heresy, and point out that our old friend evolution had a hand in this. It seems that the Black Plague is similar to AIDS in this respect, requiring to fit through the blood cell pores to infect the body. As you know, Europe was decimated by the Black Plague during the Middle Ages. The survivors were those with the small pored blood cells. So the concentration of such people increased from the mere .01% or less in the general population to 5 to 10 %. No such plague occurred in Africa, hence no natural immunity. Horace, I think you should include in your model the fact that a cure or vaccine will eventually be found, putting a limit condition on your exponential growth curve. With that in mind, encouraging condom use will substantially decrease the total death toll once the limit condition is reached, regardless of the fact that condoms are not 100% effective in stopping the spread of the disease. Your argument about people having unlimited sex if they think it is safe is a red herring. We can look at analogous situations for guidance, for a while in this country we had prohibition against drinking alcohol. The result was the birth of the first major crime syndicates and a nation of alcoholics. Cooler heads prevailed and the ban was lifted. Now we have prohibition against drugs, the argument being the same ( if we tell people it's OK, they'll all do it ) and not surprisingly, we have a nation of drug addicts and massive crime syndicates. I'll argue just the opposite of you; if we tell people that sex is bad and will kill you, we will drive _many_ more people to having sex than if we tell them it's OK but they should use protection. This is basic psychology, H. Right now, looking out my window, a group of young boys are playing football on my street, which is a blind turn off of a major avenue. It's just a matter of time before one is killed. A few blocks from my place is a large park with playing fields, but they don't want to use them. They play in the busy street _because_ it is dangerous. Make no mistake, if I tell them to stop, they'll make a point of moving into the avenue itself and will surely be hit. You ask, "where's mom and dad?" Dads in jail of course ( where the heck else would dad be? ) and mom's about 1/2 my age, and I ain't an old man H. I think you would be absolutely amazed at how most people actually live. K. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 9 10:58:37 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j39Hw3Ro002915; Sat, 9 Apr 2005 10:58:03 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j39HudP3002346; Sat, 9 Apr 2005 10:56:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2005 10:56:39 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2005 10:56:38 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Survey questions from Dr. Peter Gluck In-Reply-To: <001d01c53caa$d6cf1690$cb41ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> Message-ID: References: <001d01c53caa$d6cf1690$cb41ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59077 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Fri, 8 Apr 2005, Mike Carrell wrote: > - WHAT IS COLD FUSION (LENR, CANR, CMNS)? There may be more than one fundamental energy-producing phenomenon involved, so any questions about the "one true nature" of CF will devolve into Swiftian lilliputan battles. > - HOW DOES IT WORK? "IT?" What if it's a "they?" > - WHAT CHANCES DOES IT HAVE TO BE SCALED UP TO A TECHNOLOGY? Unless there's a very lucky breakthrough, it's probably going to remain a "lab curiousity" like biophotons and remote viewing: treated with hostile disgust by the larger scientific community, but investigated by a small group of mavericks. "If you believe it, only then can you see it" works more often than "If you see it, only then will you believe it." > - WHAT HAVE WE TO DO IN ORDER TO ATTAIN THIS? Perhaps a current CF researcher will stumble onto some effect which makes possible the CF equivalent of the 1942 uranium/graphite pile. (Play loud sounds into your CF experiment, as in the movie "Cold Fusion!") Find a way to make a CF "science kit" for children which always works, and which demonstrates phenomena inexplicable by contemporary physics. Build several automated CF water heaters and have them installed in science museums. Or win the one-million-dollar "Amazing Randi" prize, or one of the "perpetual motion" prizes. (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb at amasci com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 9 11:23:14 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j39IMaRo009752; Sat, 9 Apr 2005 11:22:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j39ILFRv009302; Sat, 9 Apr 2005 11:21:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2005 11:21:15 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2005 10:22:53 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: OT: Question regarding condoms Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59078 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:44 PM 4/9/5, Jed Rothwell wrote: >> This is a competely different thing! What a bogus argument! The 98 >> percent vaccine effectiveness refers to individuals, not to exposures! > >I do not understand your point. People do not get diseases unless they are >exposed to them. In a population of people inoculated against measles, 2% >will get the disease anyway. If 98 percent of the population is protected from a fatal disease then at most 2 percent will die. When a person has been effectively innoculated he is protected *no matter how many exposures* he experiences. The use of exposure at a time based protection differs from this. In this case there is a probability in each and every exposure of a failure of the protection. There is a powerful cumulative effect from repeated risk, no matter how small the risk. It is a fact that [lim n-> inf] x^n = 0, for any 0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2005 10:40:30 -0800 To: , From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: RE: OT: Question regarding condoms Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59079 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:52 PM 4/9/5, Keith Nagel wrote: >Horace writes: >>Maybe there is a natural protection ( against AIDS )in the Japanese gene pool? > >Actually, I think it is more due to the insularity of the Japanese >culture, along with sexual mores. Jed seems to describe Japan as some >hotbed of lust, but looking at the grossly declining birth rate I >wonder about this (grin). > >OTOH, those of European descent do have a natural immunity to AIDS due to >our genes. It seems the AIDS virus infects the immune system by inserting >itself into the blood cells, which carry the virus throughout the body. >In order to accomplish this feat, the virus needs to fit through tiny >pores in the blood cell. It happens that ~5-10% of Europeans have very >small pores, making it impossible for the virus to fit and infect. >This was discovered by analysis of gay men who survived the initial >wave of infections here in America. > >How did this situation come about? Well, I'll risk being burned at >the stake for heresy, and point out that our old friend evolution had a hand >in this. It seems that the Black Plague is similar to AIDS in this >respect, requiring to fit through the blood cell pores to infect >the body. As you know, Europe was decimated by the Black Plague during >the Middle Ages. The survivors were those with the small pored blood >cells. So the concentration of such people increased from the mere .01% >or less in the general population to 5 to 10 %. No such plague occurred >in Africa, hence no natural immunity. Wow, this is interesting. Thank you! This means there is a prospective cure for aids, at least for some individuals. The cure consists of marrow replacement using a doner having blood with small pores. > >Horace, I think you should include in your model the fact that a cure or >vaccine will eventually be found, putting a limit condition on your >exponential growth curve. With that in mind, encouraging condom use >will substantially decrease the total death toll once the limit condition is >reached, regardless of the fact that condoms are not 100% effective >in stopping the spread of the disease. Actually, I think I did mention this early on, and qualified my remarks on that basis. However, since you brought it up, there is a possibility of developing a vaccine yet not finding a cure. In fact, if a vaccine is developed, the effort for a cure will diminish. Those who are temped into the unsafe group, and then infected, by the notion that condom use provides safe sex, will then still have to suffer the consequences of being misled. > >Your argument about >people having unlimited sex if they think it is safe is a red herring. I only said it is irresponsible to lure people out of a safe population into an unsafe population by calling condoms "safe" (instead of quantifying the risk.) The argument that many or even the majority of the population is happy to be in the at risk group is specious. My point is not directed at their well being, it is directed at the contiued well being of the others. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 9 12:13:32 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j39JD2Ro026188; Sat, 9 Apr 2005 12:13:02 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j39JBfEK025690; Sat, 9 Apr 2005 12:11:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2005 12:11:41 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2005 12:11:39 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: Keith Nagel cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: Experimental Challenge!!!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59080 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I've been in an emotional low for the last few years, which greatly affects my creativity... and my posting frequency. Years ago when I read peoples' posts I would have ten ideas and ambition to send them out. Today most often I have zero ideas and less ambition. Using email is like pulling teeth. In the last few months it's improving though. Hey, take a look at the thingy I built for a local art gallery: http://amasci.com/art/pondmach/pond3.html > I was kinda hoping for Thomas Malloy to post an answer, but being the > biggest zealot it's painfully clear his hand is the emptiest. Heh. People who are absolutely certain that they know the truth are quite irritating to all of us who really know the truth. (Is that a Mark Twain quote wrongly remembered?) (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb at amasci com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 9 13:18:08 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j39KHaRo014225; Sat, 9 Apr 2005 13:17:37 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j39KGDcg013317; Sat, 9 Apr 2005 13:16:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2005 13:16:13 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2005 12:17:35 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Survey questions from Dr. Peter Gluck Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59081 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >- WHAT IS COLD FUSION (LENR, CANR, >CMNS)? Cold fusion is a set of quantum effects which occur in a lattice loaded with diffusing elements. The effects occur due to long exposure times and high mass density. These effects include nuclear reactions without characteristic energetic signatures or branching ratios. These nuclear reactions do not require large initial collision energies, and nuclei created in such reactions do not carry the high level of excitement that produces characteristic branching ratios. Additionally, heat may be generated in a loaded lattice environment that does not correspond to any nuclear source of energy, but rather to quantum interactions of electrons with the vacuum. > >- HOW DOES IT WORK? Unknown. It is likely there are various mechanisms at work. > >- WHAT CHANCES DOES IT HAVE TO BE >SCALED UP TO A TECHNOLOGY? When the phenomena are highly repeatable then engineering principles and computer models can be developed and the prospects for scaling up are very good. > >- WHAT HAVE WE TO DO IN ORDER TO >ATTAIN THIS? Principally lacking in the field is a multidisciplinary approach. A multidisciplinary team of scientists is required which work closely, backed by powerful computational capabilities, and precision instruments. Much of the little progress made to date has been by individuals or small teams working within the constraints of personal budgets or nominal funding. There have been big budget projects, but the direction of these was not by creative multidisciplinary teams. Spending lots of money to satisfy a limited mind set or vision is clearly not an answer. There is still much room for an expanded Edsionian search of lattice materials deposited as thin films and for study of plasma-lattice interactions. The range of possible lattice materials and operating temperatures has barely been scratched. Practical energy producing devices will likely operate at high temperatures. Effective direction of such a search requires experts in chemistry, quantum mechanics, materials science, especially ceramics, nuclear physics, and computational physics. Also lacking so far is funding for a team or teams principally dedicated to replications and which have available a sufficient range of high quality instruments to determine if the cause of the results is as described by the original scientists. Much work in the field has not been replicated. The scientific method is not working well in this field due to a lack of funding and to stigma. The stigma will probably only be removed when an inexpensive and easily accomplished experiment is produced and widely disseminated which clearly demonstrates anomalous nuclear or energy effects. The easiest thing that can be done in a positive direction might be to establish a highly moderated list dedicated to relevant subjects. Most of the scientists that were on vortex have left. Very little serious discussion remains. The problems though are obtaining and keeping a moderator with the time and ability to keep things going, getting serious scientists to join and contribute, and keeping the list activity going because moderated lists tend to dry up. Vortex has been an excellent resource (for me anyway) because the subject matter for the most part has been technical and discussion of really unusual ideas is wide open. However, it does not seem to meet the needs of serious scientists focused on cold fusion. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 9 14:18:17 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j39LHiRo029135; Sat, 9 Apr 2005 14:17:44 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j39LGNfY028555; Sat, 9 Apr 2005 14:16:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2005 14:16:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <33353836.1113081376755.JavaMail.root wamui08.slb.atl.earthlink.net> Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2005 17:16:16 -0400 (GMT-04:00) From: Jed Rothwell Reply-To: Jed Rothwell To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: OT: Question regarding condoms Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Earthlink Zoo Mail 1.0 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59082 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner writes: > If 98 percent of the population is protected from a fatal disease then at > most 2 percent will die. When a person has been effectively innoculated he > is protected *no matter how many exposures* he experiences. Ah, I see your point. Actually, you are partly wrong. Many vaccines gradually "wear out." There is a big debate now about how long smallpox vaccines remain effective. You are using the wrong analogy. As I said in another message, you should compare condoms to seat belts. Or wahing hands, pasteurization -- or any health care technique that has to be applied every time. Also, you have to remember that the number of exposures is strictly limited. The number of times the average Japanese male can engage in risky sex in a lifetime is relatively low. He is busy; prostitutes are expensive; his wife may get fed up. If condoms fail once per thousand uses (which would not surprise me), then the average Japanese businessman with loose morals is more likely to die from a lighting strike than AIDS. No matter how much you encourage him, he cannot afford the time or the money to engage in sex often enough to overcome such odds. Take away the condoms and Japan would be in the same boat as the U.S., with an infection rate 150 times higher. If we are talking about a Japanese yakuza with $50,000 in stolen money and a suitcase full of drugs visiting south east Asia, the odds are totally different. Remember, the mechanical failure has be drastic, including even the viricide. As someone else here pointed out, advanced condoms do a pretty good job protecting the male from disease even when they tear or come off. Also bear in mind that Japanese males are all literate, educated, and they follow the directions on the box, unlike Third World people. They are much less likely to make a stupid mistake, and stupid mistakes are the main cause of failure. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 9 14:31:51 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j39LVGRo032732; Sat, 9 Apr 2005 14:31:16 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j39LTtUX032181; Sat, 9 Apr 2005 14:29:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2005 14:29:55 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: "Vortex" Subject: RE: OT: Question regarding condoms Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2005 17:31:57 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59083 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace writes: >Wow, this is interesting. Thank you! This means there is a prospective >cure for aids, at least for some individuals. The cure consists of marrow >replacement using a doner having blood with small pores. Youch! That's a pretty serious procedure just to vaccinate a person. And that's what you'd get, once the infection occurs it won't help to transplant the marrow. That said, here's a more viable vaccine idea. Find the DNA fragment that encodes for blood cell pore size. Take a virus, and engineer it to inject the new DNA strand for small pore size into the marrow cells. If you do this right, you'd not only vaccinate the person, but everyone else they sleep with whilst the vaccine vector is active. What a great pickup line " Sleep with me beautiful, and you'll be immune from AIDS" Safe sex? How about "AIDS vaccinating sex!". The basic science for what I describe above has already been developed and tested for treating Cystic Fibrosis. I'm sure someone out there is working on something like this right now. The problem, as will perhaps already be apparent to more business minded Vo's, is that vaccine's ( ESPECIALLY the kind I am describing ) are the lowest profit margin pharma that you can sell. That's why we had a gross shortage of flu vaccine last year; no one in the US makes it anymore, or most other vaccines either. It was very funny when, a few months before the shortage, we heard from the Great Father George ( Thanks Chief S. ) that Canadian imported pharmas are BAD cause they're poison, but domestic pharmas are GOOD cause they're uhhhh profitable. Then we find that our one manufacturer ( US company, outsourcing actual production to England ) is producing bad vaccine, so we beg Canada for their surplus vaccine. We've always been at war with Eurasia, what's wrong with you Winston Smith! Double plus ungood! This is why, twenty years after the AIDS virus made itself known, we have no vaccine, but several different manufacturers of erection pills. Which, in conjunction with all the cheap methamphetamine floating around, is fueling the second big wave of AIDS infections. Hey, I'm a practicing capitalist, and even my stomach turns when I think about this stuff. K. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 9 15:16:58 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j39MGPRo010770; Sat, 9 Apr 2005 15:16:26 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j39MF4xI010338; Sat, 9 Apr 2005 15:15:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2005 15:15:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Conventional nuclear fission plants are not cost effective Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 08:14:55 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <9qkg519vv21jenrb88dfmr1tskuvk6rf5o 4ax.com> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j39MF1Ro010287 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59084 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Horace Heffner's message of Sat, 9 Apr 2005 06:36:37 -0800: Hi, [snip] >Storage of *both* the heat and cold generated by air liquifaction might be >a sensible way to go. Liquid air is easy to store at high efficiency, and >heat from compression can be stored in thermal wells or by using salt phase >exchange, though a much lower melting point salt would have to be used to >directly obtain the heat from the compression. I would expect thermal wells >to be cheaper than salt tanks, and if drilled deep enough, they produce >geothermal heat also. [snip] Are you suggesting thermal wells as an alternative to salt phase exchange, or a combination of both? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 9 15:26:55 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j39MQLRo016073; Sat, 9 Apr 2005 15:26:21 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j39MOxHb015662; Sat, 9 Apr 2005 15:24:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2005 15:24:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Windmills in the sky after all! Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 08:24:49 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050407093250.02c43970 pop.mindspring.com> <001601c53ba5$fd9b8e80$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> In-Reply-To: <001601c53ba5$fd9b8e80$0600a8c0 nixlaptop> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j39MOuRo015633 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59085 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Nick Palmer's message of Thu, 7 Apr 2005 20:14:11 +0100: Hi, [snip] >A restrained British WOW!! This flying windmill concept looks really exciting. I'd heard speculation about kites in the jet stream before but there were always problems with the weight of the tether/power line. I particularly like that it can fly up to altitude under control and back down for maintenance... They suggest that they are having difficulty attracting venture capital at the moment. They do not mention the voltage gradient that can occur in the atmosphere on their website - anyone with more knowledge than I care to speculate on whether this would be a help or hindrance? I assume that if one uses DC, and matches the orientation in the atmosphere, it would be a help (but not much, because the kite wouldn't really be high enough to tap the "electrosphere", hence the current would be too low). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 9 15:31:43 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j39MVERo018127; Sat, 9 Apr 2005 15:31:14 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j39MTrG1017417; Sat, 9 Apr 2005 15:29:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2005 15:29:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Windmills in the sky after all! Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 08:29:40 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <5ilg51pcl0dcvqepctfhgk7rcqk4vcklq7 4ax.com> References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050407093250.02c43970 pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050407093250.02c43970 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j39MTkRo017376 Resent-Message-ID: <7oY4pC.A.FQE.gdFWCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59086 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jed Rothwell's message of Thu, 07 Apr 2005 09:37:58 -0400: Hi, >A couple of months ago, Baronvolsung suggested we might have wind turbines >high in the sky, up in the jet stream. I pooh-poohed the idea, but it turns >out I wasn't thinking hard enough. It could not be done with balloons, as >he suggested, but kites are another matter. See: > >http://www.wired.com/news/planet/0,2782,67121,00.html > >http://www.skywindpower.com/ww/index.htm [snip] Judging by the map of wind areas, one of the best places to try this might be the southern end of the south island of New Zealand, where there is a dip down to rather low altitudes. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 9 16:03:07 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j39N2dRo026149; Sat, 9 Apr 2005 16:02:39 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j39N1IIc025614; Sat, 9 Apr 2005 16:01:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2005 16:01:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <3rr4tf$p25sm5 mxip07a.cluster1.charter.net> X-Ironport-AV: i="3.92,91,1112587200"; d="scan'208"; a="841151173:sNHT12983090" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.12 (webedge20-101-197-20030912) From: To: CC: Subject: RE: Experimental Challenge!!!!! Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2005 23:01:09 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59087 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > From: William Beaty ... > Hey, take a look at the thingy I built for a local > art gallery: > > http://amasci.com/art/pondmach/pond3.html Nice "Thingy" William! > > I was kinda hoping for Thomas Malloy to post an > > answer, but being the biggest zealot it's painfully > > clear his hand is the emptiest. > > Heh. People who are absolutely certain that they know > the truth are quite irritating to all of us who really > know the truth. (Is that a Mark Twain quote wrongly > remembered?) Setting Mr. Twain aside might I suggest that there is much we can learn from Mr. Malloy. It's not so much about coming to terms with or accepting Mr. Malloy's belief system. It's about acquiring a better understanding of what motivates Mr. Malloy to have acquired the rigid-like belief system he currently follows for it seems quite likely to me that he would feel utterly terrified and lost in this world if he were to suspect there existed a flaw in the intellectual/philosophical boundaries he has constructed and barricaded himself within. Acquiring a better understanding of what is going on here may prove to be crucial for the survival of our planet depending on how prevalent such rigid-like belief systems are through out the rest of the world, regardless of what which religion may have spawned it. I suspect the kind of philosophical rigidity that Mr. Malloy has revealed within Vort may be more prevalent than a lot of us wished it was. If Mr. Malloy is listening in (and I suspect you have been) this message was not meant to patronize you nor treat your beliefs like they were a collection ideological curiosities that need to be dissected into meaningless fragments by of a bunch of secular humanist social scientists. On the other hand, there are individuals within this discussion group who have sincerely attempted to reach out to you, to help you walk through the barriers you have surrounded yourself within. They do this not because they think it is some kind of a conspiratorial contest being done at our expense to see who possesses the biggest testicles in some perverted macho attempt to destroy your cherished beliefs. Some have reached out to you in an attempt to help you survive certain beliefs they perceive as having trapped you rather than freeing you. Because in the end we really are all from the same family - and family members stick by other family members in the best way they can. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 9 19:11:14 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3A2AXT0007563; Sat, 9 Apr 2005 19:10:33 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3A2AS7n007495; Sat, 9 Apr 2005 19:10:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2005 19:10:28 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000e01c53d72$75441790$c2037841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: water into wine Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2005 21:10:24 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000A_01C53D48.8BF3AF70" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-99.5 required=4.0 tests=HTML_40_50,HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: <8-eMWD.A.B1B.TsIWCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59088 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C53D48.8BF3AF70 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000B_01C53D48.8BF3AF70" ------=_NextPart_001_000B_01C53D48.8BF3AF70 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankFrank, I have been studying the posts on this thread with ever = increasing interest. Finally, a simple like me DID grasp your simplified = math and " shazzam" I saw another side. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_000B_01C53D48.8BF3AF70 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Frank, I have been studying the posts on this thread with ever = increasing=20 interest. Finally, a simple like me DID grasp your simplified math and " = shazzam" I saw another side.
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_000B_01C53D48.8BF3AF70-- ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C53D48.8BF3AF70 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000901c53d72$74bf0910$c2037841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C53D48.8BF3AF70-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 9 22:36:10 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3A5ZZUi027225; Sat, 9 Apr 2005 22:35:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3A5YCw0026967; Sat, 9 Apr 2005 22:34:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2005 22:34:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2005 21:35:52 -0800 To: "Vortex" From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: RE: OT: Question regarding condoms Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59089 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 5:31 PM 4/9/5, Keith Nagel wrote: >Horace writes: >>The cure consists of marrow >>replacement using a doner having blood with small pores. > >Youch! That's a pretty serious procedure just to vaccinate a person. >And that's what you'd get, once the infection occurs it won't help >to transplant the marrow. I guess I am confused. The major problem with AIDS is the attack on the immune system, which is blood born. If the virus can be eliminated from the blood by marrow transplant then why is this not a cure? If the virus is not eliminated from the blood in small pored blood cell individuals, then the small pore marrow transplant would not constitute a vaccination either. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 9 22:53:57 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3A5rMUi031323; Sat, 9 Apr 2005 22:53:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3A5q1UN030913; Sat, 9 Apr 2005 22:52:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2005 22:52:01 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2005 21:53:39 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Conventional nuclear fission plants are not cost effective Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59090 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 8:14 AM 4/10/5, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >In reply to Horace Heffner's message of Sat, 9 Apr 2005 06:36:37 >-0800: >Hi, >[snip] >>Storage of *both* the heat and cold generated by air liquifaction might be >>a sensible way to go. Liquid air is easy to store at high efficiency, and >>heat from compression can be stored in thermal wells or by using salt phase >>exchange, though a much lower melting point salt would have to be used to >>directly obtain the heat from the compression. I would expect thermal wells >>to be cheaper than salt tanks, and if drilled deep enough, they produce >>geothermal heat also. >[snip] >Are you suggesting thermal wells as an alternative to salt phase >exchange, or a combination of both? I would think the choice of combinations would depend on local economics and geology. High temperature salt melting can clearly be achived by resistance heating. Lower temperature solt melting can be achived using post compressor gas temperatures. The use of thermal wells depends on local geology and regulations. The important point with regard to thermal energy storage I think is the notion of storing both heat and cold simultaneously so as to maximize the carnot efficiency when the energy is recovered by Sterling engine or turbine. For some reason you just don't see that concept in use. Typically the approach is storing cold in the form of liquid nitrogen or air, or otherwise storing heat in the form of thermal mass or phase change, and then later doing an exchange with the ambient environment to effect the recovery. Liquifaction produces both waste heat and cold products. Both should be stored to maximize later energy recovery. This can work well for a home sized energy storage system, but it should be workable for a large wind or solar system as well. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 9 23:08:19 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3A67mUi002399; Sat, 9 Apr 2005 23:07:48 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3A66Rng002019; Sat, 9 Apr 2005 23:06:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2005 23:06:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2005 22:08:07 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: OT: Question regarding condoms Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59091 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 5:16 PM 4/9/5, Jed Rothwell wrote: [snip] >Also bear in mind that Japanese males are all literate, educated, and they >follow the directions on the box, unlike Third World people. They are much >less likely to make a stupid mistake, and stupid mistakes are the main >cause of failure. Failure from stupid mistakes, and from errors in judgement when condoms are not available or just not desirable, are all factors that must be included in the infection probability p for any given modality. People in chaste or monogamous groups ar protected from these mistakes. Again, touting condom use as "safe" is reckless. The reasonable thing to do is to provide the relevant statistics. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 10 01:48:08 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3A8lWPs005603; Sun, 10 Apr 2005 01:47:33 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3A8lM9M005561; Sun, 10 Apr 2005 01:47:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 01:47:22 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <4255699A.5060500 ix.netcom.com> References: <20050406010601.23950.qmail web30210.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <425348A3.1080700 ix.netcom.com> <4255699A.5060500 ix.netcom.com> Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 03:47:44 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: OT: "If I were Pope." Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59092 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >thomas malloy wrote: > >>>Kyle Mcallister wrote: >>> >>>>Vortexians, >>>> >>>>OK, this is getting a little "crazy-go-nuts." >>>> >>>>1. Margaret Sanger was responsible for some good, yes. >> >> >>and Ed Storms responded >> >>The problem is that some people would be very willing to leave you >>and people with your belief system alone. >However, there seems to be an >>>unwillingness of certain religious belief systems to leave the >>>rest of us alone. >> >> >>Have you considered that G-d might want to affect the course of history, Ed? > >An interesting idea. So you believe that God gives us free will >then tries to get us to behave in a proper way. Occasionally, God >sends a messenger who tries to get people to exercise their free >will in the "correct" way. Of course, because of the free will, >these messages are interpreted in different ways so that the message >is distorted causing wars because each group thinks their >interpretation is correct. This seems like a very odd system for a >God to create. Lets start over at the beginning. There are these two super human entities who both want to be G-d, Unfortunately there's only room for one, One's going to toss the other into a black hole, him and all his followers with him. Now this all results from the angels and humans having free will. There have been a series of prophets who have recorded G-d's message. > > >Then there is the matter of the Islamists, who want to rule the >world. > >This is no more true than to say that Christianity wants to rule the world. But our G-d has a right to rule his world. > Both religions are trying to spread their beliefs and both belief >systems have groups under whose rule I and you would not want to >live. Speak for yourself, I live in a theocracy, I answer to Rabbi Stan, we both answer to G-d. > On the other hand, in a few countries now and especially in the >past, Islam provided a very good religious base for civilized >development. If you don't mind living in the Middle Ages, and don't care if you worship the true G-d, in spirit and truth. If it weren't for that, I'd make a good Islamist. > >If you think that you'd have problems with a Christian theocracy, >>you'll really hate them, they make us look like liberals. > > >> >>>> >>>>2. I am not pro-abortion for a few reasons. >>>>A: It does nothing to encourage people to stop the >>>>numerous "meet and f**k" flings. >>> >>> >>>Lack of abortion does not stop f**kings, which all the statistics >>>and personal experience shows. >> >> >>But the ability to kill people who are inconvenient does cheapen life > >War is the most outrageous ability to kill inconvenient people yet >it does not get the same criticism as does abortion. I expect you >will say that the fetus is innocent so it should be protected while >soldiers and people who start wars are not innocent. Nevertheless, >innocent people are killed in war. To be consistent, any Christian >who objects to abortion should object to war just as strongly. Abortion isn't a real hot button issue, but it is with most of my friends, particularly my Christian sisters, I am well aware of the human suffering caused by war. I believe that there are some humans who are profoundly evil, and that when one of them gets his hands on the levers of state power, the only way to stop his activities, force. There are just and unjust wars. >> >>> >>>>B: I wouldn't know if I was destroying someone who >>>>might be something very important one day. >>> >>> >>>Or someone who was a mass murder. Of course, if God wanted a >>>person available to do something considered important, why would >>>it matter if that body were destroyed? Many more bodies would be >>>available. Also, if God is all powerful and all knowing, why would >>>a body that might be aborted be chosen? >> >> >>Have you ever heard of free will, Ed? Well you have the right to >>exercise it. We believe that free will, combined with our sinful >>nature is the reason that the world is in such a mess today. Some >>of us are opposed to murder, not to be confused with justified >>killing. > >So if I understand correctly, killing in war and as a penalty is ok >because the person deserves death, but taking a potential life is >murder, which is wrong. Presumably in your belief system, if a bomb >or bullet kills an innocent person during war this is not murder, >but an accident, hence ok. > >Frankly, I do not know of a time when the world was not a mess >somewhere. Even in the past when the Catholic Church ruled, things >were done by the Church that, by all standards, were wrong, were a >"sin", and must have been based on a distortion of God's will. >Where do you draw the line between what is God's will and what the >Church has believed and done during various times in history? Why >do you think your particular variation on Christianity is completely >correct? The only people deserving of death are criminals like Sudam Husein. As for the collateral damage of war, it's an imperfect world. The Roman Church has it's good points, but it is also imperfect. As for my church, we do the best that we can to base our beliefs on the Bible. However, so do all the churches. >> >>> >>>>C: I do not have to be pro-abortion just because you >>>>say so. So many people have tried to force me to be >>>>pro-abortion that I am now totally against it mainly >>>>in defiance of those who would control my thinking. >>> >>> >>>Why do you think you are being forced to be proabortion and how is >>>this done? Of course, many people are being forced to be >>>"antiabortion" just because the doctors are being driven out of >>>business. >> >> >>What doctors, the abortionists? The cry that goes up from the pro >>abortionists every time we attempt to restrict the practice makes >>me think that there is more going on here than the practice of >>their bloody business, IMHO, their agenda is to kill humans. > >Surely Thomas you see the self serving aspects of this >interpretation. Put yourself in the place of a women who is pregnant >with an unwanted child. She may have too many children already, she >may have been raped, she might be too young to properly raise the >child, or she does not want the stigma of her actions. You would say >that rather than an abortion, she should pay the price for her >"sin", and live with the shame or threat to her other children. At the moment there are lots of couples who would love to adopt a child. > Meanwhile you project the same lack of compassion on the >abortionists. The basic issue is, where should the limited amount of >compassion be placed? Is it not possible to have compassion for the >doctors who have to do the nasty job, for the pregnant woman, AND >for the fetus. In the process, make abortion an important action >requiring thought and prayer, but not impossible. I agree. However the strident nature of the cry that the pro abortionists make when we have attempted to limit the practice, makes me suspect that they have a hidden agenda. >> >>>> >>>>3. A religious person really really must have made you >>>>mad once, Jed? It is fine by me if you are >>>> >>> >>>I know of no proposed legislation that is antireligious. However, >>>I know that the religious right is trying to make gay marriage >>>illegal. >> >> >>We are attempting to preserve the traditional definition of the >>word. Have you ever heard of Sodom and Gamorrah?, do you recall >>what happened to those two cities? > >You and I both know that what is believed about what happened in >Sodom and Gamorrah is largely myth based on the Bible. You can believe that the Bible is a myth if you want, that doesn't change the fact that of the verses which were prophetic at the time of their writing, 75% have come to pass, the ones which were dated, on time to the day. Have you seen the sulfur balls imbedded in the ash which are found in the area where Sodom and Gamorrah were? >In fact, homosexual interaction were commonplace in Greek and Roman >times without cities being destroyed by God. Modern understanding of >sexually is reveling that the gender spectrum between male and >female is continuous. A few people are fully male or fully female, >while most occupy a region between these extremes. Also, that a >person can be moved on this spectrum simply my giving them the >proper hormone. Where is the sin in this? There are various levels of sin, and sexual sins are the most he heinous because they are at the center of the person. Torah was the first book to forbid homosexuality. >>> >>>You know, if we are supposed to be so >>> >>>>pro-women-liberation in other countries, so >>>>pro-freedom, so pro-lets-all-get-along-as-equals, so >>>>pro- then why the HELL is it >>>>ok and dandy to hate religion? > >I think we need to make a distinction here between spiritually and >religion. Many people, myself included, believe that a another >variation of this reality exists which can be called the spiritual >reality. Religion makes an effort to understand this reality and >then institutionalizes the result. In the process, ideas are locked >into dogma and conflict results. So when you note that I and other >people are antireligious, we appear this way only because we object >to the process of creating dogma when we all should be trying to >understand this important aspect of out existence. I make the same >objection when the same process of creating dogma is applied to >science. It depends on whether or not the scenario I mentioned about the two super human beings struggling to see which one will run the universe, doesn't it. Another aspect of that is the concept of holiness, the word in Hebrew kadosh. G-d is holy and consequently is unable to tolerate that which is unholy. He obligated to extra pate sin from the universe. >>> >>> >>>I did not get the impression that Jed hates religion, nor do I. >>>However, I do hate the attitude of certain religions in their >>>belief that their God is better than the other God. >> >> >>I'm savy enough to realize that the two of you are just anti >>religious, Ed. However, I'm sure you can appreciate that there is, >>however only room for one G-d and king in the universe. > >While I admit this is true, history shows that there is room for >more than one interpretation of what this God wants us to do. >Although the correct answer has been frequently given, most people >have a hard time understanding the message. I think that the concept of holiness is pretty clearly spelled out in the Bible. > I do not presume to have a correct understanding, hence I do not >believe I have the right to force you to adopt my particular >understanding by law. For example, in my ideal world, you would have >the right to deny an abortion to your family members and would have >the right to talk friends out of using abortion. However, you would >not be allowed to prevent my family or anyone else from using this >method. As I mentioned above, I'm quite liberal on abortion, I just want to discourage it. > The same approach would apply to homosexual marriage. You would >have the compassion and acceptance to allow me to go to Hell, if >that is the result of my actions. Meanwhile, you could be confident >that you would go to Heaven. We could then compare notes when we >met in the spiritual reality and see who was right. I'm going to do my best to retain the traditional definition of marriage because I see it as one of the building blocks of society. I also believe that homosexuality is just another form of sexual perversion, best addressed by celibacy. >>> >>>If you think I am >>> >>>>overreacting, then re-read your posts. They were >>>>pretty damned irritating to me at least, and I am sure >>>>others. Not for your opinion, that is fine. Do what >>>>you want. But do not ever try to force it on anyone >>>>else. By legislation or otherwise. This statement (the >>>>last part anyways) is not directly aimed at anyone. >>> >>> >>>I would also like religious people not to force their beliefs >>>using legislation, which is the common approach. >> >> >>The way we see it, there is a religion called Secular Humanism, >>which is being promoted by the Liberals. For all their >>protestations of separation of religion and government, the >>followers of this religion are anxious to use the levers of power >>which the government provides to promote it. > > >Allowing freedom of belief and action is not promoting Secular >Humanism. The problem comes when certain people want to deny >freedom and force other people to adopt actions they are sure are >God's will. In other words, they want to deny free will, the very >freedom God gave to man according to your belief. Don't you see the >contradiction here. Thomas? I realize that, but the promoters of Secular Humanism have an agenda, which is promoting their religion. They are, however loath to admit either that it is a religion, or that they are attempting to promote it. >> >> Did you notice Parksie's reaction to the challenge to his >>orthodoxy? Intelligent Design just points out the absurdity of >>spontaneous biogenesis, but Parksie couldn't stand even that small >>incursion on his pet paradigm. > >Bob Park is a small minded person who enjoys his own cleverness. He >is not a spokesman for a liberal approach, although he is frequently >right about the stupidity of the government. I am amazed at how often I agree with Parksie when it comes to the government's wasting money. You have noticed his promoting allopathic medicine, and the materialistic paradigm, I assume? >> >>A major tenet of Secular Humanism is an attempt to promote >>sexuality immorality and make murder socially acceptable, and we >>are obligated to stop it. The Secular Humanists will come out in >>mass to attempt to stop the justified killing of a convicted >>murderer, but seem to feel that the murder of an inconvenient >>infant is just fine. They give lip service to free speech, but when >>they are authority, which they are in the educational >>establishment, are quite intolerant of dissenting speech. They >>claim to support the rights of women, but blindly support the most >>anti woman religion on Earth, Islam. Their agenda is as simple as >>ABC, anything but Christianity. > >You must be living in a different world than I am, Thomas. I see no >such actions or intent on the part of what you call Secular >Humanists. All most people want is the freedom to find their own way >in this world without some group who thinks they have God on their >side telling us what to think and what to do within our own life or >family. You want the same, except you do not want the Moslems >telling you what to believe. In this sense, we are on the same side. >The difference is that I don't want Christians forcing me to adopt >their value system either. You are turning a blind eye to their activities if you can't see that they are promoting sexual immorality. Huxley's Brave New World is here. It's not a matter of having G-d on our side, it's being on G-d's side. I have previously mentioned holiness. The Moslems have a version of it, that is because the author of the system, HaSatan, packaged it in a matter which would appeal to them. I'm not going to force you to adopt my value system, however the G-d of Israel will. >> >>>> >>>>4. Contraception? Sure, why not. I have no problem >>>>with this. But please, if anyone out there wants to >>>>force the use of them on people who do NOT want to use >>>>them, kindly take a hike. This statement is not >>>>directly aimed at anyone. >>> >>> >>>As far I know, no one is forced to use contraception. However, >>>for awhile in this country and even now in some other countries, >>>condoms were not easily available because the Catholic Church was >>>opposed. >> >> >>The contraception issue makes me glad that I'm not a Catholic. >> >>>> >>>>5. Are you guys actually reading this? I don't get >>>>many replies........ >>> >>> >>>Does this quantify? >>> >>>> >>>>6. You know, the Pope just died. He meant alot to many >>>>people. (I am not catholic, by the way, but I damn >>>>sure respect them and am not going to say they are 400 >>>>years behind!) If this form of lack of respect for the >>>>dearly departed is implicit in your atheistic-utopia >>>>vision, then count me completely out. >>> >>> >>>I think you miss the difference between respect and agreement with >>>opinion and policy. I respect the pope, but I think, for what its >>>worth, his policy is harmful to humanity. I respect you but I do >>>not share your beliefs. >>> >>>> >>>>7. If this continued anti-religious bias is to be >>>>embraced and accepted, then do not EVER ask me to show >>>>compassion towards some special interest group of to >>>>feel sorry for Muslims who might have been >>>>discriminated against in the days to follow September >>>>11th. Why should one group be discriminated against >>>>and not another? >>> >>> >>>Why indeed? I agree, we should be equal opportunity discriminators. :-) >> >> >>You finally said something that I agree with! >> >>>> >>>>8. DISCLAIMER!!! This is aimed at no one in >>>>particular! (so don't take it as being aimed at you, >>>>the cost of some contraceptives or an abortion is much >>>>more than the cost of the gunpowder it took you to >>>>blow yourself to hell. >>> >>> >>>I bit of over reaction. don't you think? >> >> >>Someone is clearly feeling quite frustrated! >> >>>> >>>>There are more, but for the moment I am too pissed off >>>>to handle them clearly. I am sorry if the tone is >>>> >>> >>>We all suffer from our past experiences and are sensitive to >>>criticism. That is why no laws should be passed for behavior that >>>does not harm another person. However, religion seems to think >>>that an absolute behavior exists, which is determined by God. >>>Hence, they want to force everyone to have that behavior. That is >>>the problem, not the reverse, which causes you heart burn. >> >> >>Religion sets out a morality which outlines the standards of >>behavior. At this time we all have free will, and compliance is >>optional. > >Here, we agree. Now if we can get the so called religious right to >agree, we both would be happy. >> We on the religious right have been fighting a losing battle, I believe the term is a rear guard action. While we have managed to score some small victories, we are, IMHO, loosing the war. The enemy's minions have control of most of the media, and de facto control of most of the schools. They have a hidden government apparatus which has the ability to manipulate events, 9/11, the bombing of the Murray Building, are only two examples of this. It's not just that they did it, it's that they got away with it! We are the restrainer, which is spoken of in the Bible, which prevents the enemy from bringing his New World Order to fruition. At some point we will be withdrawn. Then you will see that it's not us that you have to worry about, it's him. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 10 01:48:55 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3A8mgPs006163; Sun, 10 Apr 2005 01:48:42 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3A8ma8n006137; Sun, 10 Apr 2005 01:48:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 01:48:36 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3rr4tf$p25sm5 mxip07a.cluster1.charter.net> References: <3rr4tf$p25sm5 mxip07a.cluster1.charter.net> Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 03:49:17 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: RE: Experimental Challenge!!!!! Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59093 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > > From: William Beaty posted And Steven Johnson continued > >> Hey, take a look at the thingy I built for a local >> art gallery: >> > > http://amasci.com/art/pondmach/pond3.html Does the length of the strips of light change with the music? > >Nice "Thingy" William! > >> > I was kinda hoping for Thomas Malloy to post an >> > answer, but being the biggest zealot it's painfully > > > clear his hand is the emptiest. Hum, > > >> Heh. People who are absolutely certain that they know >> the truth are quite irritating to all of us who really >> know the truth. (Is that a Mark Twain quote wrongly >> remembered?) > >Setting Mr. Twain aside might I suggest that there is much we can >learn from Mr. Malloy. Yah, I like that. > >It's not so much about coming to terms with or accepting Mr. >Malloy's belief system. It's about acquiring a better understanding >of what motivates Mr. Malloy to have acquired the rigid-like belief >system he currently follows for it seems quite likely to me that he >would feel utterly terrified and lost in this world if he were to >suspect there existed a flaw in the intellectual/philosophical >boundaries he has constructed and barricaded himself within. My belief system is based on the inerrorance of the Bible. This weekend I attended part of the Understanding the Times Conference sponsored by a local ministry. They have some very interesting interviews available in a RealAudio format on their website www.olivetreeviews.org . One of the speakers was Gary Bauer who ran for the Republican nomination for president. He is quite pro life. While we support the Republicans because half a cup, is better than an empty cup, the politicians who are electable, are too liberal to accomplish any meaningful change. Whalit Shoebat is a former jihadi warrior who read the Bible and accepted Yeshua as his savior. Those who believe in the mythos that Islam is a religion of peace, should listen to the interview that he did with Olive Tree. He agrees with me about the coming war between us and Islam. I highly recommend that you purchase a copy of his address. Any serious Bible scholars will want to purchase a copy of his forth coming book. I also attended Shabot services at our assembly. On the way back to the conference, I listened to a minister go on about how the blood of the aborted fetus' cries out from the ground for vengence. Following the conference, I attended a Hagdala (end of Shabot) service at a friend's house. All together, I rubbed shoulders with over 1000 people who are in basic agreement with my world view. There's nothing like being in the presence of people who share your ideas to reinforce them. > >Acquiring a better understanding of what is going on here may prove >to be crucial for the survival of our planet depending on how >prevalent such rigid-like belief systems are through out the rest of >the world, regardless of what which religion may have spawned it. I >suspect the kind of philosophical rigidity that Mr. Malloy has >revealed within Vort may be more prevalent than a lot of us wished >it was. You have the misguided idea that things are going to keep on the way they are. Ed Dames, AKA Dr. Doom, is being interviewed on C to C AM. I find him amusing, because I have a black sense of humor. He started out by explaining how he was listening to white noise on an AM radio tuned to nothing when he heard a voice crying for help. He deduced that it was a fetus being aborted. That's just what the radical pro lifers, remember, I'm a moderate among my peers, need some more ammunition. Dr. Doom is predicting a nuclear war on the Korean pensulia with in the next 12 months. > >If Mr. Malloy is listening in (and I suspect you have been) this >message was not meant to patronize you nor treat your beliefs like >they were a collection ideological curiosities that need to be >dissected into meaningless fragments by of a bunch of secular >humanist social scientists. No, I enjoy it. >On the other hand, there are individuals within this discussion >group who have sincerely attempted to reach out to you, to help you >walk through the barriers you have surrounded yourself within. You have to realize that I'm right. >They do this not because they think it is some kind of a >conspiratorial contest being done at our expense to see who >possesses the biggest testicles in some perverted macho attempt to >destroy your cherished beliefs. I imagine that they went to college. > >Some have reached out to you in an attempt to help you survive >certain beliefs they perceive as having trapped you rather than >freeing you. Because in the end we really are all from the same >family - and family members stick by other family members in the >best way they can. Thursday night I attended a lecture be Michael Medved, host of the talk show which bears his name. Part of the ticket included an autographed copy of his new book, Right Turns. I had him wish me a happy civil new year, we like new years so much that we have two of them on the Hebrew Calendar, civil and religious. Right Turns tells how he went from being a Yale educated liberal to being president of an Orthodox congregation. While Michael doesn't share my fascination with eschatology, his religious views are even more extreme then mine. So, I'm going to end this post by wishing all you Vortexians a Happy New Year. > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 10 07:02:06 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3AE1jBv029137; Sun, 10 Apr 2005 07:01:45 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3AE0KMh028703; Sun, 10 Apr 2005 07:00:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 07:00:20 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050410150119.006ad8ec pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 15:01:19 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: water into wine Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59094 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 09:10 pm 09-04-05 -0500, Richard wrote: > Frank, > I have been studying the posts on this thread > with ever increasing interest. That's nice. 8^) > Finally, a simple like me DID grasp your simplified math..... Don't undersell yourself, Richard. You are possibly the only Vort apart from Jones who has grasped the thread's significance. Of course, you have a professional interest in water ...and all its works ...and all its pumps (that's a pun which will only be appreciated by those familiar with the baptismal ritual ) which means that you are "good ground" for new insights. > and " shazzam" I saw another side. Not knowing what "shazzam" meant I googled. ================================================= Traveling across the country in an RV, teen ager Billy Batson and his adult companion, Mentor, would encounter various situations that would require their help. Whenever their help was needed, a flashing light on the dashboard of the RV would start beeping and blinking (Holy Batphone!) and would summon the elders (Solomon, Hercules, Atlas, Zeus, Achilles, and Mercury), who would give him some cryptic advice needed for the emerging situation. By yelling the word, "SHAZAM" (the word is an acronym for all of the elders' names), Billy would turn into Captain Marvel, an adult hero with the power of flight, super speed, and super strength. As Captain Marvel, he would use his powers to capture criminals, save those in distress, and right any other wrongs that came up. ================================================= Cheers Frank ------------------------------------ alia vero ceciderunt in terram bonam ------------------------------------ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 10 08:41:28 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3AFfBBv008162; Sun, 10 Apr 2005 08:41:12 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3AFdkFl007609; Sun, 10 Apr 2005 08:39:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 08:39:46 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050410164046.00687250 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 16:40:46 +0000 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: ...water into wine... Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j3AFdiBv007561 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59095 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To recap from a few posts previous in this thread, we have the quasi-Fluid phase providing 2 dimensions of strain energy, and us providing one dimension of strain energy to feed the voracious quasi-Solid phase with its 3 square meals (correction: that should of course be 3 cubic meals) of strain energy ). So, in taking water from 0 to 100 we feed it with 100 calories (not to be confused with the kilo-calories of dieting Vorts) in order to raise the balance point from 300 calories of fat and 200 calories of muscle to 500 calories of fat. But to get the water to fly (vapourize) we have to boil off this fat with 500 more calories (latent heat). Unfortunately the fat bastard is demanding 540 calories before he will get out of bed - So what's with the extra 8 percent? This had me well stumped until Jones Beene yelling "SHAZAM" transmogrified into Captain Marvel and came flying to the rescue with: =============================================================== http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/thermo/phase.html#c5 In the process of vapourization of water, a large amount of energy must be added to overcome the remaining cohesive forces between the molecules and an additional amount of energy goes into PdV work to expand the gas from its very small liquid volume to the volume occupied by the resulting vapour. PdV work during vapourization at 100 deg C: (1.013 x 10^5 N/m^2)(22.4 x 373/273 x 10^3 cm^3/mole) ----------------------------------------------------- (18 gm/mole)(10^6 cm^3/m^3) = 172 J/gm = 41 cal/grm If the heat of vaporization of water at 100°C is 539 cal., then subtracting the 41 calorie work component suggests that the actual binding energy of the water molecules at 100°C is 539-41=498 calories. =============================================================== I think that even Horace may cast a blind eye to 2 calories in 500, eh! ;-) Cheers Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 10 09:12:14 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3AGC6Bv017653; Sun, 10 Apr 2005 09:12:06 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3AGAjbe017225; Sun, 10 Apr 2005 09:10:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 09:10:45 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "John Steck" To: Subject: RE: Experimental Challenge!!!!! Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 11:13:22 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59096 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Cool! -j -----Original Message----- From: William Beaty [mailto:billb eskimo.com] Sent: Saturday, April 09, 2005 2:12 PM To: Keith Nagel Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: Experimental Challenge!!!!! I've been in an emotional low for the last few years, which greatly affects my creativity... and my posting frequency. Years ago when I read peoples' posts I would have ten ideas and ambition to send them out. Today most often I have zero ideas and less ambition. Using email is like pulling teeth. In the last few months it's improving though. Hey, take a look at the thingy I built for a local art gallery: http://amasci.com/art/pondmach/pond3.html > I was kinda hoping for Thomas Malloy to post an answer, but being the > biggest zealot it's painfully clear his hand is the emptiest. Heh. People who are absolutely certain that they know the truth are quite irritating to all of us who really know the truth. (Is that a Mark Twain quote wrongly remembered?) (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb at amasci com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.5 - Release Date: 05/04/07 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 10 09:28:24 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3AGSDBv022437; Sun, 10 Apr 2005 09:28:14 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3AGSBj4022419; Sun, 10 Apr 2005 09:28:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 09:28:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: OT: Question regarding condoms Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 12:29:57 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59097 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Horace, Funny, you seemed to manifestly _get_ the point with you solution; perhaps I didn't explain the mechanism clearly enough. Consider a person who receives the initial infection. They have a tiny cut or opening in the flesh, and infected blood from the diseased person enters their bloodstream. The virus particles will now attempt to penetrate the blood cells of the uninfected host, by slippping through the tiny pores in the cell membrane. If they succeed, the blood cells carry the virus to all parts of the body, and infection occurs. In order to penetrate to the rest of the body the virus must be inside of a blood cell. If the virus fails to initially penetrate the blood cell, it ( like other cellular garbage in the blood stream ) eventually end up excreted from the body. This person is immune from the virus. The virus never has a chance to establish itself in the body. Those who carry the gene for tiny pores never receive the initial infection, hence my suggestion of a vaccine involving gene therapy. But once infected, changing the pore size will not materially effect the progress of the disease. Early on, it was thought that if you could kill all the virus particles in the bloodstream you could eliminate AIDS from the body. Some people were doing this with a dialysis machine and a device to oxygenate the blood. It did indeed reduce the virial load in the bloodstream substantially, but had no effect on the progress of the disease. It's rather like that old saying about allowing the camel to put his nose in your tent. Once the nose is in, the rest of the camel inevitably follows. You've got to konk that nose the moment it appears. K. -----Original Message----- From: Horace Heffner [mailto:hheffner mtaonline.net] Sent: Sunday, April 10, 2005 1:36 AM To: Vortex Subject: RE: OT: Question regarding condoms At 5:31 PM 4/9/5, Keith Nagel wrote: >Horace writes: >>The cure consists of marrow >>replacement using a doner having blood with small pores. > >Youch! That's a pretty serious procedure just to vaccinate a person. >And that's what you'd get, once the infection occurs it won't help >to transplant the marrow. I guess I am confused. The major problem with AIDS is the attack on the immune system, which is blood born. If the virus can be eliminated from the blood by marrow transplant then why is this not a cure? If the virus is not eliminated from the blood in small pored blood cell individuals, then the small pore marrow transplant would not constitute a vaccination either. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 10 09:45:26 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3AGjBBv028955; Sun, 10 Apr 2005 09:45:12 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3AGj9OX028937; Sun, 10 Apr 2005 09:45:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 09:45:09 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: "Vortex" Subject: Opening the door for YOU, just a crack... Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 12:47:04 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59098 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi All. As promised, a practical technique. You've got the watch, right? OK, set it so that it chimes on the hour. Now, here's the method. We'll be relying on the brains natural ability to touch the non-ordinary reality, the REM state of dreaming. Ordinarily, lazy primates as we just let the experience wash over us, and make no attempt to inject our conscious selves into it. We're now going to do just that, by the simple means of suggestion. Props go to Rudolf Steiner for the first good description of this I could locate. Aside from the Australian Aborigines. Each time the chime rings, ask yourself this simple question. "Am I dreaming?" The answer, unless you've progressed much farther than this simple lesson will allow, will be no. Now, every hour, you'll be asking yourself that question. It will become a habit after a few days. That's what we want. For when you go to sleep at night, your brain will cycle through the various stages of sleep. What we're relying on is the inevitable moment when you're in the REM state and the hour strikes. If you persist in the exercise, it's only a matter of time before you are in the dream state and you find yourself asking that question. The answer will be positive. What happens next is very interesting indeed. You will find yourself conscious in the dream state. Start talking to the characters you meet there. Start exploring. Ask questions. The challenge is staying in this state for any length of time, it's VERY easy to get excited and wake up, cursing yourself for blowing it. Don't lose your cool. It'll happen more frequently the more you focus on this experiment. I could blather on about my own experiences with this method, but then I'd be no better than the organized religions. The point is, that YOU must have the experiences, and see for YOURSELF what it means. Again, I am constrained by the aforementioned activist religious zealots of our legislature from talking about some of the more interesting and profound techniques. Besides, what's above may seem weak but if you put a little elbow grease into it, the results can be pretty damn impressive. Plus it's easy on the head, if you really find the results too disturbing you can easily dismiss them as mere dreams. The blue pill is _so_ much more comforting. Here's a starter question. Ask whatever you meet there where you both are. Now, you can certainly ask after Bog. While you're at it, give Zeus and The Great Spirit a ring as well. Don't forget Shiva and the Buddha. But from my own experiments, the best experience is had by not trying to shoehorn such mystery into some crazy anthropomorphic construct. In fact, that's the challenge really, getting rid of all the social programming so you can more clearly see what is in front of you. Just like any frontier science. You do the experiment, and try to let the results speak to you without preconception or mediation. Here's another experiment. Screw your balls on tight for this one, it's a lot stronger than some long winded rap with Bog. Find a mirror in the dream time, and look into it. Wow. You never expected THAT, did you? OK Zealots, join hands and repeat after me. "Burn the witch, burn the witch, BURN THE WITCCCCHHHHHHH!!!!" For the rest, fill your hands brothers, fill your hands. K. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 10 10:53:23 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3AHr7Bv021434; Sun, 10 Apr 2005 10:53:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3AHr4Xb021410; Sun, 10 Apr 2005 10:53:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 10:53:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Experimental Challenge!!!!! Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 13:55:09 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59099 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Thomas. you write: >My belief system is based on the inerrorance of the Bible. Every time you write this ( and you always do ), it completely cracks me up. The word is INERRANCY Thomas, not inerrorance. Perhaps the bible is inerrant; but clearly you are not. Your understanding of it certainly is not. You seem not to have even read the New Testament. K. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 10 11:20:11 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3AIJsBv030768; Sun, 10 Apr 2005 11:19:58 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3AIJpqE030752; Sun, 10 Apr 2005 11:19:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 11:19:51 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Standing Bear To: , "Vortex" Subject: Re: Opening the door for YOU, just a crack... Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 14:28:29 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200504101428.29507.rockcast earthlink.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59100 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Sunday 10 April 2005 12:47, Keith Nagel wrote: > Here's another experiment. Screw your balls on tight for this one, > it's a lot stronger than some long winded rap with Bog. Find a mirror in > the dream time, and look into it. Wow. You never expected THAT, did you? > > OK Zealots, join hands and repeat after me. "Burn the witch, burn the > witch, BURN THE WITCCCCHHHHHHH!!!!" For the rest, fill your hands brothers, > fill your hands. > > K. What should we 'fill our hands' ........with? Just asking. Standing Bear From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 10 12:14:51 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3AJEXBv014446; Sun, 10 Apr 2005 12:14:34 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3AJEVsW014429; Sun, 10 Apr 2005 12:14:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 12:14:31 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=JNmefDICvVuLuzubpUJI9cJz7H7hkxrO5ez5bSPPzl0/zyf5JdyVYHHAJFUwr7V9B01rtt1MjrRh8J9PrzcEGP4omGiGssOx5tkYW72hE2LDfAFv/2QsD0RYPq7dyeyRREGssHfrBgaNff8aLi2dF7hytK4mkzteRoFeDnR9ywI= Message-ID: Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 12:14:28 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Opening the door for YOU, just a crack... In-Reply-To: <200504101428.29507.rockcast earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 References: <200504101428.29507.rockcast earthlink.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j3AJESBv014409 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59101 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: hehe. ive been capable of lucid dreaming since i was 6, but i still cant od more than a rudimenetary control over scene, events, probablility. it still runs out like a play in front of me. and youre making some BIG assumptions. On Apr 10, 2005 11:28 AM, Standing Bear wrote: > On Sunday 10 April 2005 12:47, Keith Nagel wrote: > > > Here's another experiment. Screw your balls on tight for this one, > > it's a lot stronger than some long winded rap with Bog. Find a mirror in > > the dream time, and look into it. Wow. You never expected THAT, did you? > > > > OK Zealots, join hands and repeat after me. "Burn the witch, burn the > > witch, BURN THE WITCCCCHHHHHHH!!!!" For the rest, fill your hands brothers, > > fill your hands. > > > > K. > > What should we 'fill our hands' ........with? Just asking. > > Standing Bear > > -- "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 10 15:50:00 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3AMngBv015838; Sun, 10 Apr 2005 15:49:47 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3AMnbdS015805; Sun, 10 Apr 2005 15:49:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 15:49:37 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4259AE14.9020108 ix.netcom.com> Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 16:52:04 -0600 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: OT: "If I were Pope." References: <20050406010601.23950.qmail web30210.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <425348A3.1080700@ix.netcom.com> <4255699A.5060500@ix.netcom.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <0Q1wDB.A.22D.B2aWCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59102 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: thomas malloy wrote: >> thomas malloy wrote: >> >>>> snip > > Lets start over at the beginning. There are these two super human > entities who both want to be G-d, Unfortunately there's only room for > one, One's going to toss the other into a black hole, him and all his > followers with him. > > Now this all results from the angels and humans having free will. There > have been a series of prophets who have recorded G-d's message. Lets start at the real beginning. According to your belief system, one God created the universe some ? billion years ago. During that time many civilizations have come and gone on other planets and civilizations have come and gone on this planet. Recently, relatively speaking, humans have develop sufficiently to write down their conversations with God. From these documents we learn that at some time in the past, another God came into being who wants to kick out the original God and all humans who follow this God. How about the many advanced civilizations that exist on other planets? Are all the followers of the original God on these planets going to be destroyed as well or do you think we are the only beings your God has created? And why now after so long a time? Frankly this story seem too childish. Even humans who have acquired some wisdom do not act this self-serving and ruthless. I would expect Gods to have a higher standard. But then this is your God, not mine. To make this difference more clear and using your concepts, we both believe in a God but we attribute different characteristic to that God. You are willing to fight over the different characteristics because one of the characteristics you attribute to your God is his wish for you to wage such a fight. The characteristics I attribute to my God are more forgiving and compassionate, more wise rather than ruthless. > >> >> >> Then there is the matter of the Islamists, who want to rule the >> world. >> >> This is no more true than to say that Christianity wants to rule the >> world. > > > But our G-d has a right to rule his world. So, in your belief system, Christians-Jews have the right to war against people who do not share their understanding of God because your God is the only true and real God, hence has the right to rule all people. In other words, believe or die. This sounds rather old fashion, like the attitude toward witches which we have now outgrown. > >> Both religions are trying to spread their beliefs and both belief >> systems have groups under whose rule I and you would not want to live. > > > Speak for yourself, I live in a theocracy, I answer to Rabbi Stan, we > both answer to G-d. > >> On the other hand, in a few countries now and especially in the past, >> Islam provided a very good religious base for civilized development. > > > If you don't mind living in the Middle Ages, and don't care if you > worship the true G-d, in spirit and truth. If it weren't for that, I'd > make a good Islamist. Turkey is not in the Middle Ages, yet it is Moslem. When you say "worship the true God" you are missing a very critical concept. You are not worshiping a God, but you are worshiping your concept of a God. You believe this concept is the only true and correct one. Therefore, everyone should share this understanding. This is like someone saying that they worship Physics and insist on making everyone believe that the earth is the center of the universe. Our understanding of Physics as well as of God has evolved. Your understanding has apparently remained locked in the past. > >> >> If you think that you'd have problems with a Christian theocracy, >> >>> you'll really hate them, they make us look like liberals. >> >> >> >>> >>>>> >>>>> 2. I am not pro-abortion for a few reasons. >>>>> A: It does nothing to encourage people to stop the >>>>> numerous "meet and f**k" flings. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Lack of abortion does not stop f**kings, which all the statistics >>>> and personal experience shows. >>> >>> >>> >>> But the ability to kill people who are inconvenient does cheapen life >> >> >> War is the most outrageous ability to kill inconvenient people yet it >> does not get the same criticism as does abortion. I expect you will >> say that the fetus is innocent so it should be protected while >> soldiers and people who start wars are not innocent. Nevertheless, >> innocent people are killed in war. To be consistent, any Christian >> who objects to abortion should object to war just as strongly. > > > Abortion isn't a real hot button issue, but it is with most of my > friends, particularly my Christian sisters, I am well aware of the human > suffering caused by war. I believe that there are some humans who are > profoundly evil, and that when one of them gets his hands on the levers > of state power, the only way to stop his activities, force. There are > just and unjust wars. I agree. However, the definition is difficult to apply. Hitler and the German people thought their war was just, Bush and the American people think the present war is just, and hundreds of small "wars" are ongoing at any one time with each side thinking their fight is just. Of course, if you have "God" on your side, it is easy to know which killing is just. > >>> >>>> >>>>> B: I wouldn't know if I was destroying someone who >>>>> might be something very important one day. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Or someone who was a mass murder. Of course, if God wanted a person >>>> available to do something considered important, why would it matter >>>> if that body were destroyed? Many more bodies would be available. >>>> Also, if God is all powerful and all knowing, why would a body that >>>> might be aborted be chosen? >>> >>> >>> >>> Have you ever heard of free will, Ed? Well you have the right to >>> exercise it. We believe that free will, combined with our sinful >>> nature is the reason that the world is in such a mess today. Some of >>> us are opposed to murder, not to be confused with justified killing. >> >> >> So if I understand correctly, killing in war and as a penalty is ok >> because the person deserves death, but taking a potential life is >> murder, which is wrong. Presumably in your belief system, if a bomb >> or bullet kills an innocent person during war this is not murder, but >> an accident, hence ok. >> >> Frankly, I do not know of a time when the world was not a mess >> somewhere. Even in the past when the Catholic Church ruled, things >> were done by the Church that, by all standards, were wrong, were a >> "sin", and must have been based on a distortion of God's will. Where >> do you draw the line between what is God's will and what the Church >> has believed and done during various times in history? Why do you >> think your particular variation on Christianity is completely correct? > > > The only people deserving of death are criminals like Sudam Husein. As > for the collateral damage of war, it's an imperfect world. The Roman > Church has it's good points, but it is also imperfect. As for my church, > we do the best that we can to base our beliefs on the Bible. However, so > do all the churches. I don't doubt the sincerely of your approach and that of your church. However, we all must recognize that no man nor any church has all the answers. Therefore, neither man nor church should be so arrogant to insist that other people follow their understanding. We were given free will and we all should be allowed to use it. Of course, we all have the right to protect ourselves from the sinful nature of other people using law, not religion. > >>> >>>> >>>>> C: I do not have to be pro-abortion just because you >>>>> say so. So many people have tried to force me to be >>>>> pro-abortion that I am now totally against it mainly >>>>> in defiance of those who would control my thinking. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Why do you think you are being forced to be proabortion and how is >>>> this done? Of course, many people are being forced to be >>>> "antiabortion" just because the doctors are being driven out of >>>> business. >>> >>> >>> >>> What doctors, the abortionists? The cry that goes up from the pro >>> abortionists every time we attempt to restrict the practice makes me >>> think that there is more going on here than the practice of their >>> bloody business, IMHO, their agenda is to kill humans. >> >> >> Surely Thomas you see the self serving aspects of this interpretation. >> Put yourself in the place of a women who is pregnant with an unwanted >> child. She may have too many children already, she may have been >> raped, she might be too young to properly raise the child, or she does >> not want the stigma of her actions. You would say that rather than an >> abortion, she should pay the price for her "sin", and live with the >> shame or threat to her other children. > > > At the moment there are lots of couples who would love to adopt a child. Good point. I suggest religious people should make adoption easier rather than abortion harder. This approach would be more consistent with their beliefs and would show their compassion. > >> Meanwhile you project the same lack of compassion on the >> abortionists. The basic issue is, where should the limited amount of >> compassion be placed? Is it not possible to have compassion for the >> doctors who have to do the nasty job, for the pregnant woman, AND for >> the fetus. In the process, make abortion an important action requiring >> thought and prayer, but not impossible. > > > I agree. However the strident nature of the cry that the pro > abortionists make when we have attempted to limit the practice, makes me > suspect that they have a hidden agenda. Come now Thomas, there is nothing hidden here. Many people only want the option to end pregnancy using abortion, if that is their need and wish. It is the matter of freedom of choice. I'm sure you object when someone restricts your choice. > >>> >>>>> >>>>> 3. A religious person really really must have made you >>>>> mad once, Jed? It is fine by me if you are >>>>> >>>> >>>> I know of no proposed legislation that is antireligious. However, I >>>> know that the religious right is trying to make gay marriage illegal. >>> >>> >>> >>> We are attempting to preserve the traditional definition of the word. >>> Have you ever heard of Sodom and Gamorrah?, do you recall what >>> happened to those two cities? >> >> >> You and I both know that what is believed about what happened in Sodom >> and Gamorrah is largely myth based on the Bible. > > > You can believe that the Bible is a myth if you want, that doesn't > change the fact that of the verses which were prophetic at the time of > their writing, 75% have come to pass, the ones which were dated, on time > to the day. Have you seen the sulfur balls imbedded in the ash which are > found in the area where Sodom and Gamorrah were? So, you believe the Bible because some verses correctly described real events of the past or predicted real future events. This is like saying that because a textbook or history book is mostly true, that everything in it is true. But, I forget, you believe God said that all verses are true. Of course, any careful reading of the Bible shows many verses that are clearly not true, so this would seem to be a contradiction. ce in Greek and Roman >> times without cities being destroyed by God. Modern understanding of >> sexually is reveling that the gender spectrum between male and female >> is continuous. A few people are fully male or fully female, while >> most occupy a region between these extremes. Also, that a person can >> be moved on this spectrum simply my giving them the proper hormone. >> Where is the sin in this? > > > There are various levels of sin, and sexual sins are the most he heinous > because they are at the center of the person. Torah was the first book > to forbid homosexuality. I suppose that was before it was possible to convert a man into a woman or a woman into a man. We know a good deal more about our sexual and gender mechanisms now. Your belief system is once again not keeping up with new understanding of the human condition. > >>>> >>>> You know, if we are supposed to be so >>>> >>>>> pro-women-liberation in other countries, so >>>>> pro-freedom, so pro-lets-all-get-along-as-equals, so >>>>> pro- then why the HELL is it >>>>> ok and dandy to hate religion? >> >> >> I think we need to make a distinction here between spiritually and >> religion. Many people, myself included, believe that a another >> variation of this reality exists which can be called the spiritual >> reality. Religion makes an effort to understand this reality and then >> institutionalizes the result. In the process, ideas are locked into >> dogma and conflict results. So when you note that I and other people >> are antireligious, we appear this way only because we object to the >> process of creating dogma when we all should be trying to understand >> this important aspect of out existence. I make the same objection when >> the same process of creating dogma is applied to science. > > > It depends on whether or not the scenario I mentioned about the two > super human beings struggling to see which one will run the universe, > doesn't it. Another aspect of that is the concept of holiness, the word > in Hebrew kadosh. G-d is holy and consequently is unable to tolerate > that which is unholy. He obligated to extra pate sin from the universe. In other words, the one God can not tolerate the other God because he defines himself as "holy" and can not tolerate anything that is different. Sounds rather human and sinful to me. Meanwhile we humans are instructed by the holy God to be tolerant and accepting of differences between each of us, or was the "Golden Rule" just for show? > >>>> >>>> >>>> I did not get the impression that Jed hates religion, nor do I. >>>> However, I do hate the attitude of certain religions in their belief >>>> that their God is better than the other God. >>> >>> >>> >>> I'm savy enough to realize that the two of you are just anti >>> religious, Ed. However, I'm sure you can appreciate that there is, >>> however only room for one G-d and king in the universe. >> >> >> While I admit this is true, history shows that there is room for more >> than one interpretation of what this God wants us to do. Although the >> correct answer has been frequently given, most people have a hard time >> understanding the message. > > > I think that the concept of holiness is pretty clearly spelled out in > the Bible. If that is the basis, then many nonChristians are clearly holy, and many Jews and Christians are not holy. That being the case, all holy people should be "saved" regardless of belief system and all unholy people damned whether they believe in your system or not. Or can a person only be holy when they believe as you do? > >> I do not presume to have a correct understanding, hence I do not >> believe I have the right to force you to adopt my particular >> understanding by law. For example, in my ideal world, you would have >> the right to deny an abortion to your family members and would have >> the right to talk friends out of using abortion. However, you would >> not be allowed to prevent my family or anyone else from using this >> method. > > > As I mentioned above, I'm quite liberal on abortion, I just want to > discourage it. Agreed. However, you should then work to make adoption much easier. > >> The same approach would apply to homosexual marriage. You would >> have the compassion and acceptance to allow me to go to Hell, if that >> is the result of my actions. Meanwhile, you could be confident that >> you would go to Heaven. We could then compare notes when we met in >> the spiritual reality and see who was right. > > > I'm going to do my best to retain the traditional definition of marriage > because I see it as one of the building blocks of society. I also > believe that homosexuality is just another form of sexual perversion, > best addressed by celibacy. While I see no way to change your mind about this, don't you think this should be an individual choice? While marriage between a man and woman is a building block, how does a marriage between the same-sex have any effect on the marriage between opposite sexes? I know that my marriage does not depend on whether same-sex couples live together in marriage or just live together. This has no more effect on me than would two same-sex people living together without marriage. Does such situations change your relationship to your wife, assuming you are married? > >>>> >>>> If you think I am >>>> >>>>> overreacting, then re-read your posts. They were >>>>> pretty damned irritating to me at least, and I am sure >>>>> others. Not for your opinion, that is fine. Do what >>>>> you want. But do not ever try to force it on anyone >>>>> else. By legislation or otherwise. This statement (the >>>>> last part anyways) is not directly aimed at anyone. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I would also like religious people not to force their beliefs using >>>> legislation, which is the common approach. >>> >>> >>> >>> The way we see it, there is a religion called Secular Humanism, which >>> is being promoted by the Liberals. For all their protestations of >>> separation of religion and government, the followers of this religion >>> are anxious to use the levers of power which the government provides >>> to promote it. >> >> >> >> Allowing freedom of belief and action is not promoting Secular >> Humanism. The problem comes when certain people want to deny freedom >> and force other people to adopt actions they are sure are God's will. >> In other words, they want to deny free will, the very freedom God gave >> to man according to your belief. Don't you see the contradiction here. >> Thomas? > > > I realize that, but the promoters of Secular Humanism have an agenda, > which is promoting their religion. They are, however loath to admit > either that it is a religion, or that they are attempting to promote it. Come now Thomas, they are no more promoting their religion than you are promoting yours. All people would like everyone to share their beliefs. This is only normal human behavior. What is not permitted in this country is for laws to be made to enforce application of a particular belief. No conflict would exist between the Christian right and everyone else if the Christian right would mind their own business. > >>> >>> Did you notice Parksie's reaction to the challenge to his orthodoxy? >>> Intelligent Design just points out the absurdity of spontaneous >>> biogenesis, but Parksie couldn't stand even that small incursion on >>> his pet paradigm. >> >> >> Bob Park is a small minded person who enjoys his own cleverness. He >> is not a spokesman for a liberal approach, although he is frequently >> right about the stupidity of the government. > > > I am amazed at how often I agree with Parksie when it comes to the > government's wasting money. You have noticed his promoting allopathic > medicine, and the materialistic paradigm, I assume? > >>> >>> A major tenet of Secular Humanism is an attempt to promote sexuality >>> immorality and make murder socially acceptable, and we are obligated >>> to stop it. The Secular Humanists will come out in mass to attempt to >>> stop the justified killing of a convicted murderer, but seem to feel >>> that the murder of an inconvenient infant is just fine. They give lip >>> service to free speech, but when they are authority, which they are >>> in the educational establishment, are quite intolerant of dissenting >>> speech. They claim to support the rights of women, but blindly >>> support the most anti woman religion on Earth, Islam. Their agenda is >>> as simple as ABC, anything but Christianity. >> >> >> You must be living in a different world than I am, Thomas. I see no >> such actions or intent on the part of what you call Secular Humanists. >> All most people want is the freedom to find their own way in this >> world without some group who thinks they have God on their side >> telling us what to think and what to do within our own life or family. >> You want the same, except you do not want the Moslems telling you what >> to believe. In this sense, we are on the same side. The difference is >> that I don't want Christians forcing me to adopt their value system >> either. > > > You are turning a blind eye to their activities if you can't see that > they are promoting sexual immorality. Huxley's Brave New World is here. Sexual immorality is highly variable in the human society and works very well in all its variations. If you think a particular practice is wrong, feel free not to do it. Meanwhile, give other people the chance to go to Hell if that is what will happen, which I doubt. > > It's not a matter of having G-d on our side, it's being on G-d's side. I > have previously mentioned holiness. The Moslems have a version of it, > that is because the author of the system, HaSatan, packaged it in a > matter which would appeal to them. I'm not going to force you to adopt > my value system, however the G-d of Israel will. I'm willing to wait for the God of Israel to do what he will. His being a God, I would have no defense. However, I strongly object to humans, who are not Gods, trying to force me to adopt their moral values. As history has shown many times, just because a religion believes it knows God's will, this does not make it so. Because we all can be wrong, we must not force another person to adopt our belief system. We are free to believe the most crazy ideas, as is presently done, but we must allow free-will to operate in other people. To do otherwise is to violate every lesson given to man by the spirit reality. > >>> >>>>>snip > > We on the religious right have been fighting a losing battle, I believe > the term is a rear guard action. While we have managed to score some > small victories, we are, IMHO, loosing the war. The enemy's minions have > control of most of the media, and de facto control of most of the schools. > > They have a hidden government apparatus which has the ability to > manipulate events, 9/11, the bombing of the Murray Building, are only > two examples of this. It's not just that they did it, it's that they got > away with it! Thomas, now you are leaving the world of reality and entering the world of paranoia. It is one thing to have a belief system you believe is correct and worth spreading, it quite another to distort real events to fit into this belief system. This is the road to insanity. Be careful!! Regards, Ed > > We are the restrainer, which is spoken of in the Bible, which prevents > the enemy from bringing his New World Order to fruition. At some point > we will be withdrawn. Then you will see that it's not us that you have > to worry about, it's him. > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 10 15:57:12 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3AMuvBv018189; Sun, 10 Apr 2005 15:56:57 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3AMuu8S018175; Sun, 10 Apr 2005 15:56:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 15:56:56 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: "Vortex" Subject: RE: Opening the door for YOU, just a crack... Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 18:58:35 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59103 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: OK, first point is, isn't it remarkable that you _can't_ just control all aspects of the experience? Yet you can control it to some degree, let us say you can bend the rules some but not break them. Second point, put a little more thought into you post and tell me explicitly what assumptions I'm making. I presume you mean that this is all in your head, and there is nothing external happening? Fair enough, but don't put those words in my mouth, I only ask for people to do the experiment and report results. My problem is that the more interesting stuff in my bag of tricks can be _very_ dangerous, and given the very predictable responses like Squatting Mouse's, hardly worth the risk on my part to impart. Again, be more specific. What did you see when you looked in the mirror? There is something specific that just about everyone will see, or at least those for whom this method will produce good results. K. -----Original Message----- From: leaking pen [mailto:itsatrap gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, April 10, 2005 3:14 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Opening the door for YOU, just a crack... hehe. ive been capable of lucid dreaming since i was 6, but i still cant od more than a rudimenetary control over scene, events, probablility. it still runs out like a play in front of me. and youre making some BIG assumptions. On Apr 10, 2005 11:28 AM, Standing Bear wrote: > On Sunday 10 April 2005 12:47, Keith Nagel wrote: > > > Here's another experiment. Screw your balls on tight for this one, > > it's a lot stronger than some long winded rap with Bog. Find a mirror in > > the dream time, and look into it. Wow. You never expected THAT, did you? > > > > OK Zealots, join hands and repeat after me. "Burn the witch, burn the > > witch, BURN THE WITCCCCHHHHHHH!!!!" For the rest, fill your hands brothers, > > fill your hands. > > > > K. > > What should we 'fill our hands' ........with? Just asking. > > Standing Bear > > -- "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 10 20:33:18 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3B3X4Bv029714; Sun, 10 Apr 2005 20:33:08 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3B3X3we029700; Sun, 10 Apr 2005 20:33:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 20:33:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000a01c53e47$293b7610$0100007f xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: water into wine Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 22:32:21 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0006_01C53E1D.297081E0"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-99.5 required=4.0 tests=HTML_20_30,HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59104 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C53E1D.297081E0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0007_01C53E1D.29720880" ------=_NextPart_001_0007_01C53E1D.29720880 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankThanks Frank and Jones, I often use the GSU physics website for = reference. >From the series of posts on this thread I suggest water has the ability = to mimic the energy storage ability like a capacitor has the ability to = store an electric charge. From our work using vortex mixing some = interesting observations have been logged over the years that suggest = this ability of water to store energy. The total energy stored seems to = arrive from other than hydrostatic or induced head unless the energy = stored has a cumulative property of its own.=20 We often use " shapes" upstream of the regime to induce a vortex ahead = of the mixing regime or channel. In some installations this induced = vortex seems to release energy on its own which greatly assists the = mixing. The standard formula used in mixing is by calculating for G = (the mixing velocity gradient) estimated as the square root of the = horsepower of the mixing motor divided by the volume of the mixing = regime times the viscosity of water assumed as .0000235 The superior mixing results using " these vortex inducing shapes can be = demonstrated by introducing dye with the chemical and observing the = downstream results. Granted that horsepower is horse hockey and torque is what a mule has = in his rear, the formula for input horsepower vs mixing intensity simply = doesn't " hold water" pun intended. Frank's math goes a long way to addressing the mystery Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0007_01C53E1D.29720880 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Thanks Frank and Jones, I often use the GSU physics website for=20 reference.
 
From the series of posts on this thread I suggest water has the = ability to=20 mimic the  energy storage ability like a capacitor has the = ability to=20 store an electric charge. From our work using vortex mixing some = interesting=20 observations have been logged over the years that suggest this ability = of water=20 to store energy. The total energy stored seems = to arrive=20  from other than hydrostatic or induced head unless the energy = stored has a=20 cumulative property of its own. 
 
We often use " shapes" upstream of the regime to induce a=20 vortex ahead of the mixing regime or channel.  In some=20 installations this induced vortex seems to release energy on = its own=20 which greatly assists the mixing. The standard formula used in mixing = is =20 by calculating for G  (the mixing velocity gradient) =  estimated as the=20 square root of the horsepower of the mixing motor divided by the volume = of the=20 mixing regime  times the viscosity of water assumed as =20 .0000235
The superior mixing results using " these vortex inducing shapes = can be=20 demonstrated by introducing dye with the chemical and observing the = downstream=20 results.

 Granted that horsepower is horse hockey and torque is = what a mule=20 has in his rear, the formula for input horsepower vs mixing intensity = simply=20 doesn't " hold water" pun intended.
 
Frank's math goes a long way to addressing the mystery
 
Richard
 
 
------=_NextPart_001_0007_01C53E1D.29720880-- ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C53E1D.297081E0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000501c53e47$123747a0$0100007f xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C53E1D.297081E0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 10 20:45:39 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3B3jMBv000579; Sun, 10 Apr 2005 20:45:23 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3B3jJK6000551; Sun, 10 Apr 2005 20:45:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 20:45:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Standing Bear To: vortex-l eskimo.com, Edmund Storms Subject: Re: OT: "If I were Pope." Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 23:53:48 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 References: <20050406010601.23950.qmail web30210.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4259AE14.9020108@ix.netcom.com> In-Reply-To: <4259AE14.9020108 ix.netcom.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200504102353.48493.rockcast earthlink.net> Resent-Message-ID: <8QGwG.A.jI.OLfWCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59105 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Sunday 10 April 2005 18:52, Edmund Storms wrote: > thomas malloy wrote: > >> thomas malloy wrote: > >>>> snip > > > > Lets start over at the beginning. There are these two super human > > entities who both want to be G-d, Unfortunately there's only room for > > one, One's going to toss the other into a black hole, him and all his > > followers with him. > > > > Now this all results from the angels and humans having free will. There > > have been a series of prophets who have recorded G-d's message. > > Lets start at the real beginning. According to your belief system, one > God created the universe some ? billion years ago. During that time > many civilizations have come and gone on other planets and civilizations > have come and gone on this planet. Recently, relatively speaking, > humans have develop sufficiently to write down their conversations with > God. From these documents we learn that at some time in the past, > another God came into being who wants to kick out the original God and > all humans who follow this God. How about the many advanced > civilizations that exist on other planets? Are all the followers of the > original God on these planets going to be destroyed as well or do you > think we are the only beings your God has created? And why now after so > long a time? > > Frankly this story seem too childish. Even humans who have acquired > some wisdom do not act this self-serving and ruthless. I would expect > Gods to have a higher standard. But then this is your God, not mine. > To make this difference more clear and using your concepts, we both > believe in a God but we attribute different characteristic to that God. > You are willing to fight over the different characteristics because one > of the characteristics you attribute to your God is his wish for you to > wage such a fight. The characteristics I attribute to my God are more > forgiving and compassionate, more wise rather than ruthless. > > >> Then there is the matter of the Islamists, who want to rule the > >> world. > >> > >> This is no more true than to say that Christianity wants to rule the > >> world. > > > > But our G-d has a right to rule his world. > > So, in your belief system, Christians-Jews have the right to war against > people who do not share their understanding of God because your God is > the only true and real God, hence has the right to rule all people. In > other words, believe or die. This sounds rather old fashion, like the > attitude toward witches which we have now outgrown. > > >> Both religions are trying to spread their beliefs and both belief > >> systems have groups under whose rule I and you would not want to live. > > > > Speak for yourself, I live in a theocracy, I answer to Rabbi Stan, we > > both answer to G-d. > > > >> On the other hand, in a few countries now and especially in the past, > >> Islam provided a very good religious base for civilized development. > > > > If you don't mind living in the Middle Ages, and don't care if you > > worship the true G-d, in spirit and truth. If it weren't for that, I'd > > make a good Islamist. > > Turkey is not in the Middle Ages, yet it is Moslem. When you say > "worship the true God" you are missing a very critical concept. You are > not worshiping a God, but you are worshiping your concept of a God. You > believe this concept is the only true and correct one. Therefore, > everyone should share this understanding. This is like someone saying > that they worship Physics and insist on making everyone believe that the > earth is the center of the universe. Our understanding of Physics as > well as of God has evolved. Your understanding has apparently remained > locked in the past. > > >> If you think that you'd have problems with a Christian theocracy, > >> > >>> you'll really hate them, they make us look like liberals. > >>> > >>>>> 2. I am not pro-abortion for a few reasons. > >>>>> A: It does nothing to encourage people to stop the > >>>>> numerous "meet and f**k" flings. > >>>> > >>>> Lack of abortion does not stop f**kings, which all the statistics > >>>> and personal experience shows. > >>> > >>> But the ability to kill people who are inconvenient does cheapen life > >> > >> War is the most outrageous ability to kill inconvenient people yet it > >> does not get the same criticism as does abortion. I expect you will > >> say that the fetus is innocent so it should be protected while > >> soldiers and people who start wars are not innocent. Nevertheless, > >> innocent people are killed in war. To be consistent, any Christian > >> who objects to abortion should object to war just as strongly. > > > > Abortion isn't a real hot button issue, but it is with most of my > > friends, particularly my Christian sisters, I am well aware of the human > > suffering caused by war. I believe that there are some humans who are > > profoundly evil, and that when one of them gets his hands on the levers > > of state power, the only way to stop his activities, force. There are > > just and unjust wars. > > I agree. However, the definition is difficult to apply. Hitler and the > German people thought their war was just, Bush and the American people > think the present war is just, and hundreds of small "wars" are ongoing > at any one time with each side thinking their fight is just. Of course, > if you have "God" on your side, it is easy to know which killing is just. > > >>>>> B: I wouldn't know if I was destroying someone who > >>>>> might be something very important one day. > >>>> > >>>> Or someone who was a mass murder. Of course, if God wanted a person > >>>> available to do something considered important, why would it matter > >>>> if that body were destroyed? Many more bodies would be available. > >>>> Also, if God is all powerful and all knowing, why would a body that > >>>> might be aborted be chosen? > >>> > >>> Have you ever heard of free will, Ed? Well you have the right to > >>> exercise it. We believe that free will, combined with our sinful > >>> nature is the reason that the world is in such a mess today. Some of > >>> us are opposed to murder, not to be confused with justified killing. > >> > >> So if I understand correctly, killing in war and as a penalty is ok > >> because the person deserves death, but taking a potential life is > >> murder, which is wrong. Presumably in your belief system, if a bomb > >> or bullet kills an innocent person during war this is not murder, but > >> an accident, hence ok. > >> > >> Frankly, I do not know of a time when the world was not a mess > >> somewhere. Even in the past when the Catholic Church ruled, things > >> were done by the Church that, by all standards, were wrong, were a > >> "sin", and must have been based on a distortion of God's will. Where > >> do you draw the line between what is God's will and what the Church > >> has believed and done during various times in history? Why do you > >> think your particular variation on Christianity is completely correct? > > > > The only people deserving of death are criminals like Sudam Husein. As > > for the collateral damage of war, it's an imperfect world. The Roman > > Church has it's good points, but it is also imperfect. As for my church, > > we do the best that we can to base our beliefs on the Bible. However, so > > do all the churches. > > I don't doubt the sincerely of your approach and that of your church. > However, we all must recognize that no man nor any church has all the > answers. Therefore, neither man nor church should be so arrogant to > insist that other people follow their understanding. We were given free > will and we all should be allowed to use it. Of course, we all have the > right to protect ourselves from the sinful nature of other people using > law, not religion. > > >>>>> C: I do not have to be pro-abortion just because you > >>>>> say so. So many people have tried to force me to be > >>>>> pro-abortion that I am now totally against it mainly > >>>>> in defiance of those who would control my thinking. > >>>> > >>>> Why do you think you are being forced to be proabortion and how is > >>>> this done? Of course, many people are being forced to be > >>>> "antiabortion" just because the doctors are being driven out of > >>>> business. > >>> > >>> What doctors, the abortionists? The cry that goes up from the pro > >>> abortionists every time we attempt to restrict the practice makes me > >>> think that there is more going on here than the practice of their > >>> bloody business, IMHO, their agenda is to kill humans. > >> > >> Surely Thomas you see the self serving aspects of this interpretation. > >> Put yourself in the place of a women who is pregnant with an unwanted > >> child. She may have too many children already, she may have been > >> raped, she might be too young to properly raise the child, or she does > >> not want the stigma of her actions. You would say that rather than an > >> abortion, she should pay the price for her "sin", and live with the > >> shame or threat to her other children. > > > > At the moment there are lots of couples who would love to adopt a child. > > Good point. I suggest religious people should make adoption easier > rather than abortion harder. This approach would be more consistent > with their beliefs and would show their compassion. > > >> Meanwhile you project the same lack of compassion on the > >> abortionists. The basic issue is, where should the limited amount of > >> compassion be placed? Is it not possible to have compassion for the > >> doctors who have to do the nasty job, for the pregnant woman, AND for > >> the fetus. In the process, make abortion an important action requiring > >> thought and prayer, but not impossible. > > > > I agree. However the strident nature of the cry that the pro > > abortionists make when we have attempted to limit the practice, makes me > > suspect that they have a hidden agenda. > > Come now Thomas, there is nothing hidden here. Many people only want > the option to end pregnancy using abortion, if that is their need and > wish. It is the matter of freedom of choice. I'm sure you object when > someone restricts your choice. > > >>>>> 3. A religious person really really must have made you > >>>>> mad once, Jed? It is fine by me if you are > >>>> > >>>> I know of no proposed legislation that is antireligious. However, I > >>>> know that the religious right is trying to make gay marriage illegal. > >>> > >>> We are attempting to preserve the traditional definition of the word. > >>> Have you ever heard of Sodom and Gamorrah?, do you recall what > >>> happened to those two cities? > >> > >> You and I both know that what is believed about what happened in Sodom > >> and Gamorrah is largely myth based on the Bible. > > > > You can believe that the Bible is a myth if you want, that doesn't > > change the fact that of the verses which were prophetic at the time of > > their writing, 75% have come to pass, the ones which were dated, on time > > to the day. Have you seen the sulfur balls imbedded in the ash which are > > found in the area where Sodom and Gamorrah were? > > So, you believe the Bible because some verses correctly described real > events of the past or predicted real future events. This is like saying > that because a textbook or history book is mostly true, that everything > in it is true. But, I forget, you believe God said that all verses are > true. Of course, any careful reading of the Bible shows many verses that > are clearly not true, so this would seem to be a contradiction. > > ce in Greek and Roman > > >> times without cities being destroyed by God. Modern understanding of > >> sexually is reveling that the gender spectrum between male and female > >> is continuous. A few people are fully male or fully female, while > >> most occupy a region between these extremes. Also, that a person can > >> be moved on this spectrum simply my giving them the proper hormone. > >> Where is the sin in this? > > > > There are various levels of sin, and sexual sins are the most he heinous > > because they are at the center of the person. Torah was the first book > > to forbid homosexuality. > > I suppose that was before it was possible to convert a man into a woman > or a woman into a man. We know a good deal more about our sexual and > gender mechanisms now. Your belief system is once again not keeping up > with new understanding of the human condition. > > >>>> You know, if we are supposed to be so > >>>> > >>>>> pro-women-liberation in other countries, so > >>>>> pro-freedom, so pro-lets-all-get-along-as-equals, so > >>>>> pro- then why the HELL is it > >>>>> ok and dandy to hate religion? > >> > >> I think we need to make a distinction here between spiritually and > >> religion. Many people, myself included, believe that a another > >> variation of this reality exists which can be called the spiritual > >> reality. Religion makes an effort to understand this reality and then > >> institutionalizes the result. In the process, ideas are locked into > >> dogma and conflict results. So when you note that I and other people > >> are antireligious, we appear this way only because we object to the > >> process of creating dogma when we all should be trying to understand > >> this important aspect of out existence. I make the same objection when > >> the same process of creating dogma is applied to science. > > > > It depends on whether or not the scenario I mentioned about the two > > super human beings struggling to see which one will run the universe, > > doesn't it. Another aspect of that is the concept of holiness, the word > > in Hebrew kadosh. G-d is holy and consequently is unable to tolerate > > that which is unholy. He obligated to extra pate sin from the universe. > > In other words, the one God can not tolerate the other God because he > defines himself as "holy" and can not tolerate anything that is > different. Sounds rather human and sinful to me. Meanwhile we humans > are instructed by the holy God to be tolerant and accepting of > differences between each of us, or was the "Golden Rule" just for show? > > >>>> I did not get the impression that Jed hates religion, nor do I. > >>>> However, I do hate the attitude of certain religions in their belief > >>>> that their God is better than the other God. > >>> > >>> I'm savy enough to realize that the two of you are just anti > >>> religious, Ed. However, I'm sure you can appreciate that there is, > >>> however only room for one G-d and king in the universe. > >> > >> While I admit this is true, history shows that there is room for more > >> than one interpretation of what this God wants us to do. Although the > >> correct answer has been frequently given, most people have a hard time > >> understanding the message. > > > > I think that the concept of holiness is pretty clearly spelled out in > > the Bible. > > If that is the basis, then many nonChristians are clearly holy, and many > Jews and Christians are not holy. That being the case, all holy people > should be "saved" regardless of belief system and all unholy people > damned whether they believe in your system or not. Or can a person only > be holy when they believe as you do? > > >> I do not presume to have a correct understanding, hence I do not > >> believe I have the right to force you to adopt my particular > >> understanding by law. For example, in my ideal world, you would have > >> the right to deny an abortion to your family members and would have > >> the right to talk friends out of using abortion. However, you would > >> not be allowed to prevent my family or anyone else from using this > >> method. > > > > As I mentioned above, I'm quite liberal on abortion, I just want to > > discourage it. > > Agreed. However, you should then work to make adoption much easier. > > >> The same approach would apply to homosexual marriage. You would > >> have the compassion and acceptance to allow me to go to Hell, if that > >> is the result of my actions. Meanwhile, you could be confident that > >> you would go to Heaven. We could then compare notes when we met in > >> the spiritual reality and see who was right. > > > > I'm going to do my best to retain the traditional definition of marriage > > because I see it as one of the building blocks of society. I also > > believe that homosexuality is just another form of sexual perversion, > > best addressed by celibacy. > > While I see no way to change your mind about this, don't you think this > should be an individual choice? While marriage between a man and woman > is a building block, how does a marriage between the same-sex have any > effect on the marriage between opposite sexes? I know that my marriage > does not depend on whether same-sex couples live together in marriage or > just live together. This has no more effect on me than would two > same-sex people living together without marriage. Does such situations > change your relationship to your wife, assuming you are married? > > >>>> If you think I am > >>>> > >>>>> overreacting, then re-read your posts. They were > >>>>> pretty damned irritating to me at least, and I am sure > >>>>> others. Not for your opinion, that is fine. Do what > >>>>> you want. But do not ever try to force it on anyone > >>>>> else. By legislation or otherwise. This statement (the > >>>>> last part anyways) is not directly aimed at anyone. > >>>> > >>>> I would also like religious people not to force their beliefs using > >>>> legislation, which is the common approach. > >>> > >>> The way we see it, there is a religion called Secular Humanism, which > >>> is being promoted by the Liberals. For all their protestations of > >>> separation of religion and government, the followers of this religion > >>> are anxious to use the levers of power which the government provides > >>> to promote it. > >> > >> Allowing freedom of belief and action is not promoting Secular > >> Humanism. The problem comes when certain people want to deny freedom > >> and force other people to adopt actions they are sure are God's will. > >> In other words, they want to deny free will, the very freedom God gave > >> to man according to your belief. Don't you see the contradiction here. > >> Thomas? > > > > I realize that, but the promoters of Secular Humanism have an agenda, > > which is promoting their religion. They are, however loath to admit > > either that it is a religion, or that they are attempting to promote it. > > Come now Thomas, they are no more promoting their religion than you are > promoting yours. All people would like everyone to share their beliefs. > This is only normal human behavior. What is not permitted in this > country is for laws to be made to enforce application of a particular > belief. No conflict would exist between the Christian right and > everyone else if the Christian right would mind their own business. > > >>> Did you notice Parksie's reaction to the challenge to his orthodoxy? > >>> Intelligent Design just points out the absurdity of spontaneous > >>> biogenesis, but Parksie couldn't stand even that small incursion on > >>> his pet paradigm. > >> > >> Bob Park is a small minded person who enjoys his own cleverness. He > >> is not a spokesman for a liberal approach, although he is frequently > >> right about the stupidity of the government. > > > > I am amazed at how often I agree with Parksie when it comes to the > > government's wasting money. You have noticed his promoting allopathic > > medicine, and the materialistic paradigm, I assume? > > > >>> A major tenet of Secular Humanism is an attempt to promote sexuality > >>> immorality and make murder socially acceptable, and we are obligated > >>> to stop it. The Secular Humanists will come out in mass to attempt to > >>> stop the justified killing of a convicted murderer, but seem to feel > >>> that the murder of an inconvenient infant is just fine. They give lip > >>> service to free speech, but when they are authority, which they are > >>> in the educational establishment, are quite intolerant of dissenting > >>> speech. They claim to support the rights of women, but blindly > >>> support the most anti woman religion on Earth, Islam. Their agenda is > >>> as simple as ABC, anything but Christianity. > >> > >> You must be living in a different world than I am, Thomas. I see no > >> such actions or intent on the part of what you call Secular Humanists. > >> All most people want is the freedom to find their own way in this > >> world without some group who thinks they have God on their side > >> telling us what to think and what to do within our own life or family. > >> You want the same, except you do not want the Moslems telling you what > >> to believe. In this sense, we are on the same side. The difference is > >> that I don't want Christians forcing me to adopt their value system > >> either. > > > > You are turning a blind eye to their activities if you can't see that > > they are promoting sexual immorality. Huxley's Brave New World is here. > > Sexual immorality is highly variable in the human society and works very > well in all its variations. If you think a particular practice is wrong, > feel free not to do it. Meanwhile, give other people the chance to go > to Hell if that is what will happen, which I doubt. > > > It's not a matter of having G-d on our side, it's being on G-d's side. I > > have previously mentioned holiness. The Moslems have a version of it, > > that is because the author of the system, HaSatan, packaged it in a > > matter which would appeal to them. I'm not going to force you to adopt > > my value system, however the G-d of Israel will. > > I'm willing to wait for the God of Israel to do what he will. His being > a God, I would have no defense. However, I strongly object to humans, > who are not Gods, trying to force me to adopt their moral values. As > history has shown many times, just because a religion believes it knows > God's will, this does not make it so. Because we all can be wrong, we > must not force another person to adopt our belief system. We are free > to believe the most crazy ideas, as is presently done, but we must allow > free-will to operate in other people. To do otherwise is to violate > every lesson given to man by the spirit reality. > > >>>>>snip > > > > We on the religious right have been fighting a losing battle, I believe > > the term is a rear guard action. While we have managed to score some > > small victories, we are, IMHO, loosing the war. The enemy's minions have > > control of most of the media, and de facto control of most of the > > schools. > > > > They have a hidden government apparatus which has the ability to > > manipulate events, 9/11, the bombing of the Murray Building, are only > > two examples of this. It's not just that they did it, it's that they got > > away with it! > > Thomas, now you are leaving the world of reality and entering the world > of paranoia. It is one thing to have a belief system you believe is > correct and worth spreading, it quite another to distort real events to > fit into this belief system. This is the road to insanity. Be careful!! > > Regards, > Ed > > > We are the restrainer, which is spoken of in the Bible, which prevents > > the enemy from bringing his New World Order to fruition. At some point > > we will be withdrawn. Then you will see that it's not us that you have > > to worry about, it's him. Really do hate to keep a religious thread going. Some things just beg a comment though. For one, it appears several folks have had their finger in this one so hard to say who said what to whom without sifting through all 24 kbytes of this. At 0100 hours and my only time to check my e-mail, I am beyond caring about the overall scheme so will just nit pick some small details. Namely someone spelled Sadaam Insane's name wrong...oh-oh...I meant Sadaam Hussein. Oh well! It's an Iraqi word and never meant to be written in the Roman alphabet so who am I to say how that particular waste of skin wants to have his name spelled. The other is that person's comment in which he used the the phrase: "secular humanism". That is a phrase that I have found only used by extreme fundamentalist Christians as a term dissing all those not in their particular cult. Experience has taught these folks can seem very nice to ones face, but often show their true colors behind your back. So I am not particularly charitible to beliefs and adherants who have succeeded in murdering millions and imposing suffering and privation to tens of millions more over thousands of years of our history....and that is not their greatest crime. The greatest crime of religionists is holding back progress and education. Think about the Romans having an industrial revolution! They were close to it except they had given up democracy for a stratified oligarchy that discouraged innovation. So near and yet so far. Suppose the Gracchus brothers rebellion had succeeded! Instead of a two thousand year dreary procession of 'royals' who were really scum leading countries that were really overgrown 'counties' in wars over religions that served only the ruling classes, we could have had, possibly, the last hundred years' progress in the 5th or sixth century AD. Think of where we could have been. The only argument the religionists have a point in is about abortion. I have a grandson who is a credit to our family. He is twelve years old now and on the honor role every term. Wants to be a scientist, he does. His mother who became a drug addict a long time ago and has not been heard from for years...wanted to abort him before he was born. My son refused to permit her to do this. Fortunately for the world and for him, she did not succeed in her 'choice'. Standing Bear From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 10 21:06:21 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3B463Bv005948; Sun, 10 Apr 2005 21:06:03 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3B461xr005918; Sun, 10 Apr 2005 21:06:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 21:06:01 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Why the U.S. Needs More Nuclear Power Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 14:05:49 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j3B45vBv005879 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59106 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Horace Heffner's message of Tue, 5 Apr 2005 09:28:14 -0800: Hi, [snip] >It is only >when the situation is glaringly clear, nearly without controversy, and the >need pressing in the extreme, that significant action with regard to energy >is likely to occur. This is the only time anything important is ever done. However the real reason is that the situation has to get that bad before the average man on the street either becomes aware of it, or cares enough to put pressure on the politicians. The politicians in turn basically sit on their posteriors, collecting a fat cheque, until the people put pressure on them. That's what defines them as politicians, as opposed to statesmen, who act in the interest of the country, before the people pressure them into it. Bottom line: Make the people aware, and organize them to put pressure on the pollies, then something will happen. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 10 21:16:44 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3B4GYBv008774; Sun, 10 Apr 2005 21:16:34 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3B4GWkj008756; Sun, 10 Apr 2005 21:16:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 21:16:32 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Why the U.S. Needs More Nuclear Power Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 14:16:16 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <007e01c5397a$f937bc60$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> <6.2.0.14.2.20050405100301.02bfe9c0@pop.mindspring.com> <002901c539f0$a0e629e0$d0bcfea9@jonesb9pacbell> <6.2.0.14.2.20050405110938.02c0c400@pop.mindspring.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050405123130.02c64020@pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050405123130.02c64020 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j3B4GNBv008702 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59107 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jed Rothwell's message of Tue, 05 Apr 2005 12:37:55 -0400: Hi, [snip] >understand the oil industry and the growing shortage of oil. It is the >perfect antidote to know-nothing economists who believe that demand >magically creates supply. See the Pop Quiz on p. 138. [snip] Actually, demand will magically create supply, it just won't be a supply of oil, but more likely a mixture of alternatives, at least in the near term. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 10 21:18:38 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3B4IQBv009416; Sun, 10 Apr 2005 21:18:26 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3B4IOdo009400; Sun, 10 Apr 2005 21:18:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 21:18:24 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Why the U.S. Needs More Nuclear Power Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 14:18:14 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <0huj51pap3m7nif2uo30jeakpn3bebg6md 4ax.com> References: <007e01c5397a$f937bc60$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> <6.2.0.14.2.20050405100301.02bfe9c0@pop.mindspring.com> <002901c539f0$a0e629e0$d0bcfea9@jonesb9pacbell> <6.2.0.14.2.20050405110938.02c0c400@pop.mindspring.com> <008101c53a00$a0370ae0$d0bcfea9@jonesb9pacbell> In-Reply-To: <008101c53a00$a0370ae0$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j3B4ILBv009370 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59108 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jones Beene's message of Tue, 5 Apr 2005 09:58:00 -0700: Hi, [snip] >The article in FSB about the South Dakota Indian tribe is a >perfect case in point. They have a great site. They have the >motivation. There are no political obstacles. But they have >no money, and when they go to a power-generator, or to a >bank, the problem is always the same - "sure we would invest >here, except the cost to get the power from Dakota to the >grid is then times higher than the cost of the wind-farm... >or whatever. Since the cost of the connection to the grid is mostly pylons and labour, this objection can be overcome by making the wind farm bigger. There must be a size at which the connection becomes commercially viable. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 10 21:21:21 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3B4LABv010193; Sun, 10 Apr 2005 21:21:10 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3B4L6G5010168; Sun, 10 Apr 2005 21:21:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 21:21:06 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <001701c53e4d$de74af00$0100007f xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: Experimental challenge Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 23:21:00 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0013_01C53E23.F522E750"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-99.4 required=4.0 tests=HTML_MESSAGE,J_CHICKENPOX_35, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: <97n9YD.A.zeC.xsfWCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59109 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C53E23.F522E750 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0014_01C53E23.F522E750" ------=_NextPart_001_0014_01C53E23.F522E750 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankI choose not to get into a p*iss*ng contest with Keith and Ed over = religious beliefs. I stated my thoughts. As for the state of the nation, I suggest that Washington is the place = where it is not nearly as important to win as it is to make sure the = other guy looses. As for laws of the land, the NY attorney Eliot Spitzer has carried the = water for the US Justice Dept in pursuing Wall Street and the Insurance = companies.He hasn't been able to penetrate the banking industry which = means its only showtime. As for the Presidency, Look back to LBJ and the war in Nam and the = resultant Hippie culture revealed so well in the finger that Bill gave = us all on TV. The office was always a figurehead position, a bully = pulpit.. but.. even that has given way to the lobbyists power = demonstrated in the pure raw power of money. When the leaders of our nation degrade the office of presidency to the = present state, the nation responds with Enron, etc Monkey see, monkey = do.That is what we are witnessing today. This presidency has transcended = the finger with .." money alone talks" and whatever it takes to get by = one more day. Forget the future! Sometimes I believe the best weathervane is Warren Buffett. Consider AIG = moved all their cash to Barbados and made a deal with Buffett. Eliot = Spitzer can't touch Buffett without bringing down the house of cards = described as " derivatives" Follow the money.. Buffett bought Geico. Using Geico, General Re was = purchased. General Re is in the"funny money" business. General Re made a deal with = AIG's funnymoney affiliate. With these two units alone ,we are talking = 75 trillion dollars in derivatives. What you bet that Buffett has = already converted a large portion into currency offshore? How ? you = ask.. by printing more derivatives. Even Al Greenspan admitted he = doesn't understand them, they are outside the framework of the security = statutes and out of control of the Fed. Poor Eliot Spitzer lifted the lid, got a smell and .. there is large = chasm in the middle of the road ahead. I was in business the last time = it happened in 1973. LBJ tried to run the Nam war on credit. Bush is = making the same mistake ..but this time we are talking "real money". So where do I stand on politics? There is no place left to stand. Richard Explanation of derivatives. You want to borrow some money... don't go to a bank, go to someone else = that wants to borrow some money. You give him an IOU for a billion = dollars and he gives you one. Take the IOU to a public stock = corporation that needs to show a big profit in order to increase share = value. Trade a billion dollars in derivatives (IOU's) to them for a 100 = milion in worthless stock so they can show a 900 million dollar book = profit. The stock goes through the roof and the public stock corporation = dumps the derivative on the world market. The world market for = derivatives is controlled by people that know how to play the great = game. If you want to watch the masters of the game .. study Fortis.. = this is where Buffett got the idea for General Re. ------=_NextPart_001_0014_01C53E23.F522E750 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
I choose not to get into a p*iss*ng contest with Keith and Ed over=20 religious beliefs. I stated my thoughts.
 
As for the state of the nation, I suggest that Washington is the = place=20 where it is not nearly as important to win as it is to make sure the = other=20 guy looses.
 
As for laws of the land, the NY attorney Eliot Spitzer has carried = the=20 water for the US Justice Dept in pursuing Wall Street and the Insurance=20 companies.He hasn't been able to penetrate the banking industry which = means its=20 only showtime.
 
As for the Presidency, Look back to LBJ and the war in Nam and the=20 resultant Hippie culture revealed so well in the finger that Bill gave = us all on=20 TV. The office was always a figurehead position, a bully pulpit.. but.. = even=20 that has given way to the lobbyists power demonstrated in the pure raw = power of=20 money.
 
When the leaders of our nation degrade the office of presidency to=20 the present state, the nation responds with Enron, etc Monkey see, = monkey=20 do.That is what we are witnessing today. This presidency has transcended = the=20 finger with .." money alone talks" and whatever it takes to get by one = more day.=20 Forget the future!
 
Sometimes I believe the best weathervane is Warren Buffett. = Consider AIG=20 moved all their cash to Barbados and made a deal with Buffett. Eliot = Spitzer=20 can't touch Buffett without bringing down the house of cards described = as "=20 derivatives"
Follow the money.. Buffett bought Geico. Using Geico, General Re = was=20 purchased.
General Re is in the"funny money" business. General Re made a deal = with=20 AIG's funnymoney affiliate. With these two units alone ,we are talking = 75=20 trillion dollars in derivatives. What you bet that Buffett has already = converted=20 a large portion into currency offshore? How ? you ask.. by printing more = derivatives. Even Al Greenspan admitted he doesn't understand them, they = are=20 outside the framework of the security statutes and out of control of the = Fed.
Poor Eliot Spitzer lifted the lid, got a smell and .. there is = large chasm=20 in the middle of the road ahead. I was in business the last time it = happened in=20 1973. LBJ tried to run the Nam war on credit. Bush is making the same = mistake=20 ..but this time we are talking "real money".
 
So where do I stand on politics? There is no place left to = stand.
 
Richard
 
Explanation of derivatives.
 
You want to borrow some money... don't go to a bank, go to someone = else=20 that wants to borrow some money. You give him an IOU for a billion = dollars and=20 he gives you one.  Take the IOU to a public stock corporation that = needs to=20 show a big profit in order to increase share value. Trade a billion = dollars in=20 derivatives (IOU's) to them for a 100 milion in worthless stock so = they can=20 show a  900 million dollar book profit. The stock goes through the = roof and=20 the public stock corporation dumps the derivative on the world market. = The world=20 market for derivatives is controlled by people that know how to play the = great=20 game. If you want to watch the masters of the game .. study = Fortis.. this=20 is where Buffett got the idea for General Re.
------=_NextPart_001_0014_01C53E23.F522E750-- ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C53E23.F522E750 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <001201c53e4d$ddf45b70$0100007f xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C53E23.F522E750-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 10 21:46:41 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3B4kYBv016170; Sun, 10 Apr 2005 21:46:34 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3B4kWaR016153; Sun, 10 Apr 2005 21:46:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 21:46:32 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: The Invisible Man X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: ID = 774fb627c34c68b9943f8b0c60c08dc1 Reply-To: michael.foster excite.com From: "Michael Foster" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: michael.foster excite.com X-Mailer: PHP Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050411044623.DF1163DCA xprdmailfe6.nwk.excite.com> Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 00:46:23 -0400 (EDT) Resent-Message-ID: <9Q8xQB.A.V8D.nEgWCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59110 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ok, Vorts... Since this list has disintegrated into an over the back fence discussion group concerning theology and things that go bump in the night, here's one you might find interesting. I often become the Invisible Man. No, really. When Bill posted that bit about the disappearing coffee stir stick, I had to chuckle. That sort of thing happens to me so frequently that I hardly notice it. It happens to others in my presence. Things disappear for months or years anywhere within arms length of me. My employes just make sure there are lots of whatever I need around just so when something necessary disappears for a while, there's another one to use. I have no control over this and really, it pretty embarrassing. That's just a minor aspect of what I have come to call the Invisible Man Syndrome. It's become worse over the last 30 years or so. I have no control over it, and it's very real. You older Vorts might remember "The Shadow", an old radio program where Orson Welles announced, "The Shadow knows, the Shadow who has the power to cloud men's minds so that they cannot see him." That's me, except for inconvenience of not being able to make it happen when I want. It started with fairly minor episodes in restaurants with incidents that probably happen to everyone to one extent or another. A waiter would take everyone's order at the table but mine. Or a waiter would take my order as well, but only deliver everone else's. My family and friends would just usually say that I wasn't being assertive enough or some such. Then, it began to get worse, but still minor restaurant stuff. A waiter would deliver everone else's order, return with my order, offer it to everyone else at the table and then leave. I would then have to chase the waiter down. Then things began to get dangerous. People began to run into me on the street. They would just walk right into me as though they couldn't see me. In fact, they couldn't see me. The range of responses to this was fairly amusing. Usually just, "Sorry, I didn't see you." But sometimes I would get, "Where the hell did you come from?" One time I was knocked down while standing on the sidewalk talking to a business associate and then stepped on and tripped over by others who apparently couldn't see me, but then looked around wondering what the obstruction was. After that, I had several incidents in parking lots where I was nearly run down by drivers who were clearly looking right at me, but just couldn't see me. I was actually struck one time, but fortunately was not injured seriously, ending up on the hood of the car right on the windshield in front of the driver. Finally, she saw me, got out of her car and simply said, "I'm so sorry, I didn't see you." This went on for years, with everyone I know continuing to say that it's just my imagination, I should assert myself more, it couldn't really be true, it's just bad luck, it's just a coincidence, etc., etc., etc. Incidentally, these "invisiblilty episodes" happen irregularly, for no apparent reason. I can usually tell when one is coming on, when minor incidents occur with increasing frequency. Finally, one invisibility episode happened with numerous witnesses and was so dramatic that no one could explain it away. I was staying at Claridges in London with my family. Claridges is renown for its service, but I could tell a major episode was coming on when I could get no service in any of the restaurants there. I won't bore you with the details. My family and I went to Waterloo Station from the hotel to take the Chunnel back to Paris. For those not familiar with the setup there, when you are going to take the Chunnel, you have to go through security similar to getting onto an airplane, or at least you did at that time. Not thinking, I walked through the metal detector without emptying my pockets. Not a beep, not a blip. I had at least a pound of Euro coins and various British coins in one pocket. In another pocket was a camera that is basically a metal brick. Just behind me was my mother-in-law, who set off the metal detector with her wedding ring and a small bracelet. I walked on, looking back at my family, all of whom were being disassembled by the security personnel. I walked back to other side of the metal detectors because I could see this was going to take a while. I walked through again out of curiosity. Nothing. So I walked on ahead of everyone else past the passport control booth, which is basically a glass booth with an official inside, flanked by two military types with machine guns. I walked by the booth not thinking about it. I stopped and looked back at everyone else. They were still being searched. I waved and walked back toward them, past the booth. Then I walked by the booth again since the porter carrying our luggage was beckoning to me; he apparently could see me. Finally, my family walked toward me past the passport control booth, thinking it didn't apply to them, of course. The two guys with the machine guns chased them down, yelling at them. I thought for a moment they were going to be tackled. They were literally led at gunpoint to the passport control official. Meanwhile I'm still walking back and forth in front of everyone. I was never asked for my passport and the two fellows with the machine guns never even glanced at me. So finally I was able to ask, "Now do you believe me?" It didn't end there. My sister-in-law had taken a picture of me, my wife and son on the grounds of the Versailles palace, on this same trip. After she got her film developed, she said to me, "Uh, I think you should see this picture." My wife and son looked perfectly normal in this picture, but there am I looking eerily faded and well, kind of transparent. I have to look at this picture every so often, just to make sure it's really as weird as I remember it. I've continued to have these Invisible Man problems off and on for years since then, but never with so many surprised witnesses. There is one place that this never happens to me, and I always look forward to going there. That place is New York City. Go figure. M. _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 10 22:52:12 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3B5pweV032367; Sun, 10 Apr 2005 22:51:59 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3B5pvt4032353; Sun, 10 Apr 2005 22:51:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 22:51:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 21:53:26 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: OT: Question regarding condoms Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59111 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Some dialog that indicates some people are clueless with regards to cumulative probability effects: Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 10 22:55:31 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3B5tBeV000816; Sun, 10 Apr 2005 22:55:12 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3B5t9Dx000785; Sun, 10 Apr 2005 22:55:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 22:55:09 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 21:56:52 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: OT: Question regarding condoms Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59112 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is way out on the fringe, and I think probably bogus, but Ca-AEP is marketed as a "cell sealer". I doubt this would have any bearing on AIDS protection, but who knows. See: Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 10 23:51:44 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3B6pZpa014755; Sun, 10 Apr 2005 23:51:35 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3B6pXFZ014733; Sun, 10 Apr 2005 23:51:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 23:51:33 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Why the U.S. Needs More Nuclear Power Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 16:51:20 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <3h6k51po091oraligpqi08g7tlse85p1ue 4ax.com> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j3B6pQpa014654 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59113 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Horace Heffner's message of Tue, 5 Apr 2005 09:28:14 -0800: Hi Horace, [snip] >Say, wasn't there an innovative solar cell manufacturer in Australia that >was going to convert their factory to all solar powered? As I recall they >had invented an unusually efficient solar cell. I wonder how that is >progressing. Maybe Robin van Spaandonk, who posted the original material >on this, can update us on that? [snip] Perhaps this is what you are referring to (sorry, I don't recall the original post): http://www.sta.com.au/ I don't think dye cells are very efficient (if memory serves, only about 8% max, however the cost/watt should be low, because they don't need refined crystalline silicon). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 11 00:33:00 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3B7Wppa026323; Mon, 11 Apr 2005 00:32:51 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3B7WmZC026304; Mon, 11 Apr 2005 00:32:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 00:32:48 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000e01c53e58$7d0438c0$fd12fea9 gb> From: "George Baldwin" To: References: <20050411044623.DF1163DCA xprdmailfe6.nwk.excite.com> Subject: Re: The Invisible Man Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 07:36:50 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59114 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Alas, both Claridges and God are not what they used to be; not seeing the customer being just one of their foibles. GB ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Foster" To: Sent: Monday, April 11, 2005 6:46 AM Subject: The Invisible Man > > Ok, Vorts... Since this list has disintegrated into an over the back > fence discussion group concerning theology and things that go > bump in the night, here's one you might find interesting. I often > become the Invisible Man. No, really. > > When Bill posted that bit about the disappearing coffee stir stick, I > had to chuckle. That sort of thing happens to me so frequently that I > hardly notice it. It happens to others in my presence. Things > disappear for months or years anywhere within arms length of me. > My employes just make sure there are lots of whatever I need > around just so when something necessary disappears for a while, > there's another one to use. I have no control over this and really, > it pretty embarrassing. > > That's just a minor aspect of what I have come to call the > Invisible Man Syndrome. It's become worse over the last 30 years > or so. I have no control over it, and it's very real. You older Vorts > might remember "The Shadow", an old radio program where Orson > Welles announced, "The Shadow knows, the Shadow who has the > power to cloud men's minds so that they cannot see him." That's me, > except for inconvenience of not being able to make it happen when > I want. > > It started with fairly minor episodes in restaurants with incidents > that probably happen to everyone to one extent or another. A > waiter would take everyone's order at the table but mine. Or a > waiter would take my order as well, but only deliver everone else's. > My family and friends would just usually say that I wasn't being > assertive enough or some such. > > Then, it began to get worse, but still minor restaurant stuff. > A waiter would deliver everone else's order, return with my order, > offer it to everyone else at the table and then leave. I would then have > to chase the waiter down. > > Then things began to get dangerous. People began to run into me on > the street. They would just walk right into me as though they couldn't see > me. In fact, they couldn't see me. The range of responses to this was > fairly amusing. Usually just, "Sorry, I didn't see you." But sometimes I > would get, "Where the hell did you come from?" One time I was > knocked down while standing on the sidewalk talking to a business > associate and then stepped on and tripped over by others who > apparently couldn't see me, but then looked around wondering what > the obstruction was. > > After that, I had several incidents in parking lots where I was nearly > run down by drivers who were clearly looking right at me, but > just couldn't see me. I was actually struck one time, but fortunately > was not injured seriously, ending up on the hood of the car right > on the windshield in front of the driver. Finally, she saw me, got out > of her car and simply said, "I'm so sorry, I didn't see you." > > This went on for years, with everyone I know continuing to say that > it's just my imagination, I should assert myself more, it couldn't > really be true, it's just bad luck, it's just a coincidence, etc., etc., etc. > Incidentally, these "invisiblilty episodes" happen irregularly, for no > apparent reason. I can usually tell when one is coming on, when > minor incidents occur with increasing frequency. > > Finally, one invisibility episode happened with numerous witnesses > and was so dramatic that no one could explain it away. I was > staying at Claridges in London with my family. Claridges is renown > for its service, but I could tell a major episode was coming on when > I could get no service in any of the restaurants there. I won't bore > you with the details. > > My family and I went to Waterloo Station from the hotel to take the > Chunnel back to Paris. For those not familiar with the setup there, > when you are going to take the Chunnel, you have to go through > security similar to getting onto an airplane, or at least you did at > that time. > > Not thinking, I walked through the metal detector without emptying > my pockets. Not a beep, not a blip. I had at least a pound of Euro > coins and various British coins in one pocket. In another pocket was > a camera that is basically a metal brick. Just behind me was my > mother-in-law, who set off the metal detector with her wedding ring > and a small bracelet. I walked on, looking back at my family, all of > whom were being disassembled by the security personnel. > > I walked back to other side of the metal detectors because I could > see this was going to take a while. I walked through again out of > curiosity. Nothing. So I walked on ahead of everyone else past the > passport control booth, which is basically a glass booth with an > official inside, flanked by two military types with machine guns. > I walked by the booth not thinking about it. I stopped and looked > back at everyone else. They were still being searched. I waved > and walked back toward them, past the booth. Then I walked by > the booth again since the porter carrying our luggage was beckoning > to me; he apparently could see me. > > Finally, my family walked toward me past the passport control booth, > thinking it didn't apply to them, of course. The two guys with the machine > guns chased them down, yelling at them. I thought for a moment they > were going to be tackled. They were literally led at gunpoint to the > passport control official. Meanwhile I'm still walking back and forth in > front of everyone. I was never asked for my passport and the two > fellows with the machine guns never even glanced at me. > > So finally I was able to ask, "Now do you believe me?" > > It didn't end there. My sister-in-law had taken a picture of me, my > wife and son on the grounds of the Versailles palace, on this same > trip. After she got her film developed, she said to me, "Uh, I > think you should see this picture." My wife and son looked > perfectly normal in this picture, but there am I looking eerily faded > and well, kind of transparent. I have to look at this picture every so > often, just to make sure it's really as weird as I remember it. > > I've continued to have these Invisible Man problems off and on for > years since then, but never with so many surprised witnesses. > There is one place that this never happens to me, and I always > look forward to going there. That place is New York City. Go > figure. > > M. > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com > The most personalized portal on the Web! > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 11 01:55:14 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3B8t0pa013574; Mon, 11 Apr 2005 01:55:00 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3B8swsX013557; Mon, 11 Apr 2005 01:54:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 01:54:58 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050411095555.00695228 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 09:55:55 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: ...water into wine... Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59115 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:32 pm 10-04-05 -0500, Richard wrote: > Thanks Frank and Jones, > I often use the GSU physics website for reference. > > From the series of posts on this thread I suggest > water has the ability to mimic the energy storage > ability like a capacitor has the ability to store > an electric charge. From our work using vortex > mixing some interesting observations have been > logged over the years that suggest this ability of > water to store energy. The total energy stored > seems to arrive from other than hydrostatic or > induced head unless the energy stored has a > cumulative property of its own. I think you are dead right - and I think I know how it does it - which will be the subject of a new forthcoming post on the connection between water and the speed of light. Watch this space 8^) > We often use " shapes" upstream of the regime to induce > a vortex ahead of the mixing regime or channel. In some > installations this induced vortex seems to release energy > on its own which greatly assists the mixing. The standard > formula used in mixing is by calculating for G (the > mixing velocity gradient) estimated as the square root > of the horsepower of the mixing motor divided by the volume > of the mixing regime times the viscosity of water assumed > as .0000235 > The superior mixing results using " these vortex inducing > shapes can be demonstrated by introducing dye with the > chemical and observing the downstream results. > > Granted that horsepower is horse hockey and torque is what > a mule has in his rear, the formula for input horsepower vs > mixing intensity simply doesn't " hold water" pun intended. > > Frank's math goes a long way to addressing the mystery In the words of your great president, Ronald Reagan: "you ain't seen nothing, yet!" Cheers, Frank Grimer ================================================= And let us all renew our commitment. Renew our pledge to day by day, person by person, make our country and the world a better place to live. Then when the nations of the world turn to us and say, "America, you are the model of freedom and prosperity." We can turn to them and say, "you ain't seen nothing, yet!" ================================================= From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 11 02:25:14 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3B9P1pa020855; Mon, 11 Apr 2005 02:25:01 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3B9OvY8020822; Mon, 11 Apr 2005 02:24:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 02:24:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 01:26:34 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Why the U.S. Needs More Nuclear Power Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59116 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 4:51 PM 4/11/5, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >In reply to Horace Heffner's message of Tue, 5 Apr 2005 09:28:14 >-0800: >Hi Horace, >[snip] >>Say, wasn't there an innovative solar cell manufacturer in Australia that >>was going to convert their factory to all solar powered? As I recall they >>had invented an unusually efficient solar cell. I wonder how that is >>progressing. Maybe Robin van Spaandonk, who posted the original material >>on this, can update us on that? >[snip] >Perhaps this is what you are referring to (sorry, I don't recall >the original post): > >http://www.sta.com.au/ > >I don't think dye cells are very efficient (if memory serves, only >about 8% max, however the cost/watt should be low, because they >don't need refined crystalline silicon). > >Regards, > > >Robin van Spaandonk Thanks for the response. Maybe this has something to do with what I remebered: At 7:14 PM 5/22/96, Martin Edmund Sevior wrote: >I've just read the annual report on the Center for PhotoVoltaics at University >of New South Wales, in Sydney. These are the guys who hold the patents on the >most efficient solar cells in mass production and who also hold the world >record for efficiency of Silicon solar cells (24%). Last year they obtained >patents on a new technology that will produce solar cells cheap enough to >compete with conventional "Grid connected" electricity. It is based on >multi-layer polycrystaline silicon deposited on glass substrates. These are >only 50 microns thick. They've demonstrated the technology can produce cells >of 17% efficiency which is already greater than their target efficiency of >15%. They expect to produce cells that cost around $2 per peak watt. > >These cells can then be mounted on cheap "non-imaging" concentrators of their >own design that do not need to move to track the sun. Their design >concentrates light by a factor of 4 while only losing 15% of the total >light incident. The concentrators are robust enough to be >used as roof cladding. The combination of the "thin" cells and the concentrator >will reduce the cost of solar energy to $0.5 per peak watt. At this price >solar energy is fully competitive with fossil fuel power. > >They have formed a partnership with the State of New South Wales electricity >Uitility, Pacific Power and are 1 year into 5 year plan to mass produce these >systems. The plan has Pacific Power investing 64 million dollars over the >5 years to bring the technology to commercial reality. They have exceeded their >own milestones in the first year of operation. > >What has this to do with CF? Namely all those guys out their who think they >will make tons of money from their marvellous inventions they can't tell >anyone about had better be aware of this tidal wave from solar energy. If >there is something to CF it will need the full attention of the world's >scientific community and the world's capital markets to exploit. > >I have no more patience with people who say they have fantastic results and >devices but can't let you try it for yourself. I will name names. CETI, >Reed Huish, E-QUEST, Mills and Piantelli, the world doesn't need CF. >It will be ignored until convincing evidence is made widespread AND anyone >who wants to replicate an effect can and does. > >Martin Sevior At 1:32 PM 4/24/97, Martin Sevior wrote: >Gnorts Vorts! > >Some of you may remember that last year I posted some information about >Solar Photovoltaic cells. The gist of the post was that a collaboration >between the Photovoltaics Special Research Center at the University of >New South Wales in Sydney, Australia and Pacific Solar exists with the >aim of reducing the cost of Solar Cells by a factor of 5 - 10 in a 5 year >research and development program. Pacific Solar is a wholly owned subsidary >of Pacific Power the electric Utility of the Australian State of New South >Wales (NSW). They have an installed capacity of about 12 Gigawatts. > >The collaboration has completed the first 2 years of the project and >state "they >are ahead of schedule". The technology they're developing is thin silicon >deposited on glass. Unfortunately details are scetchy because of >confidentiality clauses, but my contacts say they have advanced the field >"incredibly" well. > >A parallel development are the roof tile project, which employs a >non-imaging concentrator to reduce the amount of silicon needed for a working >cell. The device could also be used for a roofing material in one's house. >They've acheived 4:1 improvement in light concentration in a device with >an overall efficiency of 19%. > >At the same time they've developed an invertor that allows locally >generated power (within a property) to be sent out to the grid. The electric >distribution utilities in oz will then give a credit for all energy >generated and sent out to the grid. > >There is already a market in oz from people who are willing to pay extra for >electricity generated within their own property. Systems which >cost about $10,000 give you essentially free electricity, once you take your >credits. So they appear to be priming the market for consumer supported >electricty generation. If they can deliver a system that gives free >electricty for $2000, which appears feasible on current projections, the >system would pay for itself in less than 4 years. At that point the market >would explode. > >I'll keep you informed of progress. I'll repeat what I said last year. The >world doesn't need CF to achieve sustainable economic growth. > >Martin Sevior Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 11 04:12:58 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3BBCePl019055; Mon, 11 Apr 2005 04:12:44 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3BBCcJW019035; Mon, 11 Apr 2005 04:12:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 04:12:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 19:12:00 +0800 From: FHLew Subject: Re: water into wine To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <002201c53e87$49a22f80$1e38bcca fhlew> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 Content-type: multipart/related; boundary="Boundary_(ID_WrdmwgDHEI67iKUr/WOJ0A)"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: by Spam Firewall Outbound at tm.net.my References: <000a01c53e47$293b7610$0100007f xptower> Resent-Message-ID: <_J8nzC.A.XpE.mulWCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59117 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_WrdmwgDHEI67iKUr/WOJ0A) Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_RLCmvi6GQtC185/oSfo/1w)" --Boundary_(ID_RLCmvi6GQtC185/oSfo/1w) Content-type: text/plain; charset=Windows-1252 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable BlankRichard wrote: < ...I suggest water has the ability to mimic the energy = storage ability like a capacitor has the ability to store an electric = charge. From our work using vortex mixing some interesting observations = have been logged over the years that suggest this ability of water to = store energy. The total energy stored seems to arrive from other than = hydrostatic or induced head unless the energy stored has a cumulative = property of its own. > Comment: Scientists have finally discovered the homeopathic concept of minute = dilutions. "Hormesis" is the term they use to describe small doses of = substances that create a beneficial response.Dr. Joan Smith Soneborn, a = cell biologist, states that "Hormesis appears to be a very real = phenomenon." Research and homeopathic literature indicate that the most = favorable results with homeopathics have been with a fairly low potency, = like 3X, 2C or 3C. Interesting facts about homeopathics: =B7 Trevor Cook, Ph.D. states that a magnetic resonance device detected = subatomic activity in homeopathic remedies =B7 Dr. Emilio de Guidici says, "water molecules form structures capable = of storing minute charges of electromagnetic signals." =B7 Dr. Wolfgang Ludwig, a German biophysicist, demonstrated that = homeopathic substances give off measurable electromagnetic signals This research appears to indicate:=20 Homeopathics demonstrate "energies" and that water molecules = have a stable, hexagonal, lattice system, like an invisable = honeycomb.This "honeycomb" can hold homeopathic "energies" and can = change the structural shape of the water molecule lattice = pattern.Succussing, or shaking, the homeopathic product seems to = "transfer" the properties of the raw material to the water structure. = Motion is Matter in movement but there is no object in the movement. Salts are chemical fire. Its corrosive appetite is fed - not by = wood or coal but by metals, whose electrons fuel chemical reactions. The = cells and their trace mineral concomitants are biologically transmutated = minerals by bacteria and plants ,acquire an added energy force in an = ionised electrical state - Plasma, the 4th state of Matter, which = ignites the vitality of the cells , esoterically called the Vital Force, = Chi or Prana and is involved in the very genesis of life itself. Their = concerted bioradiation generates our bioplasmic sheath or auric web = which protects us from external negative stress which may be mental, = emotional or physical. This auric sheath is intangible but has been = proven scientifically and clairvoyantly. The biological system has the = property to store electromagnetic energies.=20 Magnetism affects water in odd ways. Normally water's pH is = neutral due to its balance of acid (H+) to alkaline (OH-) ions. But = south pole magnetism causes water to become slightly alkaline, while a = north pole shifts pH a tad acid. This subtle shift is critical in = biological systems such as cell membranes.Water never flows in straight = paths: rather, in pipes, streams, and veins, water spirals in trillions = of tiny vortices. In 1976 Pat Flanagan discovered water can be = magnetically charged: water spun in a vortex, as Steiner recommended, = generates an EM field. A four inch vortex spun at 1000 rpm creates = 10,000 volts. When reversed, the vortex implodes, and its collapsing EM = is absorbed by water molecules, charging them. This can change water's = surface tension bv altering its hydrogen bonds, and dramatically affect = ion exchange in cell membranes.Water contains liquid crystals that = retain a fixed molecular structure -- tiny icebergs of crystal water. As = water cools, more crystals form until the whole mass is ice. Charging = water in a vortex may increase the amount of crystalline water. Flanagan = believes cells form protoplasm from water largely in this liquid crystal = state. As crystal, cell water has an atomic lattice similar to = semiconductors, and poses the idea cells function by electronic = principles of solid state physics. A cyberfriend asked me on soil-less organic farming. <... your use of the word "dynamised" with respect to nutrient = solutions leads me ask if this process is related to or derived from the = methods proposed by Rudolph Steiner > Two principles that can be said to be typical of Steiner's = biodynamic theory have to do with composting.......and moon phases .In = practice these principles go far beyond the usual attention paid to such = factors by pre-modern agriculturists and their modern counterparts in = the organic movement.Cow manure and plant trimmings, was critical to = making it truly biodynamic. He further suggested that the beneficial organic matter, = produced in the resulting soil would be greatly enhanced by specific = additions of animal remains, such as the horns of oxen or the bladders = of deer . The reason for such additions apparently has to do with subtle = forces creating balance and harmony in the natural world. Practitioners = who have the patience to follow Steiner's detailed instructions have = claimed significant results. Medicine For The Earth: Biodynamic Preparations Rudolf Steiner pointed out that a new science of cosmic influences = would have to replace old, instinctive wisdom and superstition. Out of = his own insight, he introduced what are known as biodynamic = preparations. Naturally occurring plant and animal materials are combined in specific = recipes in certain seasons of the year and then placed in compost piles. These preparations bear concentrated forces within them and are used to = organize the chaotic elements within the compost piles. When the process = is complete, the resulting preparations are medicines for the Earth = which draw new life forces from the cosmos. Two of the preparations are used directly in the field, one on the earth = before planting, to stimulate soil life, and one on the leaves of = growing plants to enhance their capacity to receive the light. Effects = of the preparations have been verified scientifically. Nutritionasl Science: = http://lewfh.tripod.com/nutritionalscience/ The Farm As The Basic Unit Of Agriculture In his Agriculture course, Rudolf Steiner posed the ideal of the = self-contained farm - that there should be just the right number of = animals to provide manure for fertility, and these animals should, in = turn, be fed from the farm. We can seek the essential gesture of such a farm also under other = circumstances. It has to do with the preservation and recycling of the = life-forces with which we are working. Vegetable waste, manure, leaves, = food scraps, all contain precious vitality which can be held and put to use = for building up the soil if they are handled wisely. Thus, composting is = a keyactivity in Biodynamic work. The farm is also a teacher, and provides the educational opportunity to = imitate natures wise self-sufficiency within a limited area. Plant Life Is Intimately Bound Up With The Life Of The Soil Biodynamics recognizes that soil itself can be alive, and this vitality = supports and affects the quality and health of the plants that grow in = it. Therefore, one of Biodynamics fundamental efforts is to build up = stable humus in our soil through composting. Cosmic Rhythms The light of the sun, moon, planets and stars reaches the plants in = regular rhythms. Each contributes to the life, growth and form of the = plant. By understanding the gesture and effect of each rhythm, we can = time our ground preparation, sowing, cultivating and harvesting to the = advantage of the crops we are raising. Reading The Book Of Nature Everything in nature reveals something of its essential character in its = form and gesture. Careful observations of nature - in shade and full = sun, in wet and dry areas, on different soils, will yield a more fluid = grasp of the elements. So eventually one learns to read the language of nature. And = then one can be creative, bringing new emphasis and balance through = specific actions. Practitioners and experimenters over the last seventy years have added = tremendously to the body of knowledge known as Biodynamics. Comments: =20 My dynamised version of soiless farming , is essentially = based on serially potentised cell-salts( derived from organic nutrient = extracts ) in vortices of structured water created by clock - wise and = anti-clock-wise whirlpooling in a washing machine. Steiner might have found there was = SOME THICKENING OF THE NUTRIENT SOLUTION by this directional alternating = centrifuging method.. Together with the coconut husk - highly absorbent, = rich in Potash and a consistent pH ( in the form of CHIPS or COCO FIBRE = DUST - coir pith blocks ) and charcoal, the combination will form the = compost , the process initiated by the vibratory signatures of = cell-salts found in organic nutrients. The highly sensitive,electromagnetic layers of structured water, provide efficient receptors for Cosmic Harmonics of = vibratory Forms and Nutrients for Biological Transmutation. The = receptacle for the plant is the COCONUT itself. Holes are drilled in the = receptacle for aeration of the root system. Perhaps you might want to know how I dynamise by generating a = liquid vortex in a washing machine. Please click Vortex: Generation of a Liquid Vortex http://lewfh.tripod.com/coloursarecodedfrequenciesinphotonicbandgapcrysta= lstructures/ With regrads Lew ----- Original Message -----=20 From: RC Macaulay=20 To: vortex-l eskimo.com=20 Sent: Monday, April 11, 2005 11:32 AM Subject: Re: water into wine Thanks Frank and Jones, I often use the GSU physics website for = reference. From the series of posts on this thread I suggest water has the = ability to mimic the energy storage ability like a capacitor has the = ability to store an electric charge. From our work using vortex mixing = some interesting observations have been logged over the years that = suggest this ability of water to store energy. The total energy stored = seems to arrive from other than hydrostatic or induced head unless the = energy stored has a cumulative property of its own.=20 We often use " shapes" upstream of the regime to induce a vortex ahead = of the mixing regime or channel. In some installations this induced = vortex seems to release energy on its own which greatly assists the = mixing. The standard formula used in mixing is by calculating for G = (the mixing velocity gradient) estimated as the square root of the = horsepower of the mixing motor divided by the volume of the mixing = regime times the viscosity of water assumed as .0000235 The superior mixing results using " these vortex inducing shapes can = be demonstrated by introducing dye with the chemical and observing the = downstream results. Granted that horsepower is horse hockey and torque is what a mule has = in his rear, the formula for input horsepower vs mixing intensity simply = doesn't " hold water" pun intended. Frank's math goes a long way to addressing the mystery Richard --Boundary_(ID_RLCmvi6GQtC185/oSfo/1w) Content-type: text/html; charset=Windows-1252 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Richard wrote:
 
          < ...I = suggest=20 water has the ability to mimic the  energy storage = ability like a=20 capacitor has the ability to store an electric charge. From our work = using=20 vortex mixing some interesting observations have been logged over the = years that=20 suggest this ability of water to store energy. The=20 total energy stored seems to arrive  from other = than=20 hydrostatic or induced head unless the energy stored has a cumulative = property=20 of its own. >
 
 
Comment:
 
 Scientists have finally discovered the homeopathic concept of = minute=20 dilutions. "Hormesis" is the term they use to describe small doses of = substances=20 that create a beneficial response.Dr. Joan Smith Soneborn, a cell = biologist,=20 states that "Hormesis appears to be a very real phenomenon." Research = and=20 homeopathic literature indicate that the most favorable results with=20 homeopathics have been with a fairly low potency, like 3X, 2C or=20 3C.
Interesting facts about homeopathics:
=B7 Trevor Cook, Ph.D. = states that=20 a magnetic resonance device detected subatomic activity in homeopathic=20 remedies
=B7 Dr. Emilio de Guidici says, "water molecules form = structures=20 capable of storing minute charges of electromagnetic signals."
=B7 = Dr. Wolfgang=20 Ludwig, a German biophysicist, demonstrated that homeopathic substances = give off=20 measurable electromagnetic signals
This research appears to indicate: =
         Homeopathics = demonstrate=20 "energies" and that water molecules have a stable, hexagonal, lattice = system,=20 like an invisable honeycomb.This "honeycomb" can hold homeopathic = "energies" and=20 can change the structural shape of the water molecule lattice=20 pattern.Succussing, or shaking, the homeopathic product seems to = "transfer" the=20 properties of the raw material to the water structure. Motion is Matter = in=20 movement but there is no object in the=20 movement.
         Salts are = chemical=20 fire. Its corrosive appetite is fed - not by wood or coal but by metals, = whose=20 electrons fuel chemical reactions. The cells and their trace mineral=20 concomitants are biologically transmutated minerals by bacteria and = plants=20 ,acquire an added energy force in an ionised electrical state - Plasma, = the 4th=20 state of Matter, which ignites the vitality of the cells , esoterically = called=20 the Vital Force, Chi or Prana and is involved in the very genesis of = life=20 itself. Their concerted bioradiation generates our bioplasmic sheath or = auric=20 web which protects us from external negative stress which may be mental, = emotional or physical. This auric sheath is intangible but has been = proven=20 scientifically and clairvoyantly. The biological system has the property = to=20 store electromagnetic energies.
       = Magnetism affects water in odd ways. Normally water's pH is neutral due = to its=20 balance of acid (H+) to alkaline (OH-) ions. But south pole magnetism = causes=20 water to become slightly alkaline, while a north pole shifts pH a tad = acid. This=20 subtle shift is critical in biological systems such as cell = membranes.Water=20 never flows in straight paths: rather, in pipes, streams, and veins, = water=20 spirals in trillions of tiny vortices. In 1976 Pat Flanagan discovered = water can=20 be magnetically charged: water spun in a vortex, as Steiner recommended, = generates an EM field. A four inch vortex spun at 1000 rpm creates = 10,000 volts.=20 When reversed, the vortex implodes, and its collapsing EM is absorbed by = water=20 molecules, charging them. This can change water's surface tension bv = altering=20 its hydrogen bonds, and dramatically affect ion exchange in cell = membranes.Water=20 contains liquid crystals that retain a fixed molecular structure -- tiny = icebergs of crystal water. As water cools, more crystals form until the = whole=20 mass is ice. Charging water in a vortex may increase the amount of = crystalline=20 water. Flanagan believes cells form protoplasm from water largely in = this liquid=20 crystal state. As crystal, cell water has an atomic lattice similar to=20 semiconductors, and poses the idea cells function by electronic = principles of=20 solid state physics.
 
 
A cyberfriend asked me on soil-less organic farming.
 
  <... your use of the word "dynamised" with respect = to=20 nutrient  solutions leads me ask if this process is related to or = derived=20 from the methods proposed  by Rudolph Steiner=20 >

     Two principles that can be said to = be=20 typical of Steiner's biodynamic theory have to do with = composting.......and moon=20 phases .In practice these principles go far beyond the usual attention = paid to=20 such factors by pre-modern agriculturists and their modern counterparts = in the=20 organic movement.Cow manure and plant trimmings, was critical to making = it=20 truly
biodynamic. He further suggested that the beneficial organic = matter,=20 produced in the resulting soil would be greatly enhanced by specific = additions=20 of animal remains, such as the horns of oxen or the bladders of deer . = The=20 reason for such additions apparently has to do with subtle forces = creating=20 balance and harmony in the natural world. Practitioners who have the = patience to=20 follow Steiner's detailed instructions have claimed significant=20 results.


Medicine For The Earth: Biodynamic=20 Preparations

   Rudolf Steiner pointed out that a new = science=20 of cosmic influences would have to replace old, instinctive wisdom and=20 superstition. Out of his own insight, he introduced what are known as = biodynamic=20 preparations.
Naturally occurring plant and animal materials are = combined in=20 specific recipes in certain seasons of the year and then placed in = compost=20 piles.
These preparations bear concentrated forces within them and = are used=20 to organize the chaotic elements within the compost piles. When the = process is=20 complete, the resulting preparations are medicines for the Earth which = draw new=20 life forces from the cosmos.
Two of the preparations are used = directly in the=20 field, one on the earth before planting, to stimulate soil life, and one = on the=20 leaves of growing plants to enhance their capacity to receive the light. = Effects=20 of the preparations have been verified scientifically.
 
          Nutritio= nasl=20 Science:        http://lewfh.tripod.= com/nutritionalscience/

The=20 Farm As The Basic Unit Of Agriculture

   In his = Agriculture=20 course, Rudolf Steiner  posed the ideal of the self-contained farm = - that=20 there should be just the right number of animals to provide manure for=20 fertility, and these animals should, in turn, be fed from the = farm.
We can=20 seek the essential gesture of such a farm also under other = circumstances. It has=20 to do with the preservation and recycling of the life-forces with which = we are=20 working. Vegetable waste, manure, leaves, food
scraps, all contain = precious=20 vitality which can be held and put to use for building up the soil if = they are=20 handled wisely. Thus, composting is a keyactivity in Biodynamic = work.
The=20 farm is also a teacher, and provides the educational opportunity to = imitate=20 natures wise self-sufficiency within a limited area.

Plant Life = Is=20 Intimately Bound Up With The Life Of The Soil

Biodynamics = recognizes that=20 soil itself can be alive, and this vitality supports and affects the = quality and=20 health of the plants that grow in it. Therefore, one of Biodynamics = fundamental=20 efforts is to build up stable
humus in our soil through=20 composting.

Cosmic Rhythms

The light of the sun, moon, = planets and=20 stars reaches the plants in regular rhythms. Each contributes to the = life,=20 growth and form of the plant. By understanding the gesture and effect of = each=20 rhythm, we can time our ground preparation, sowing, cultivating and = harvesting=20 to the advantage of the crops we are raising.

Reading The Book Of = Nature

Everything in nature reveals something of its essential = character=20 in its form and gesture. Careful observations of nature - in shade and = full sun,=20 in wet and dry areas, on different soils, will yield a more fluid grasp = of=20 the
elements. So eventually one learns to read the language of = nature. And=20 then one can be creative, bringing new emphasis and balance through = specific=20 actions.
Practitioners and experimenters over the last seventy years = have=20 added tremendously to the body of knowledge known as=20 Biodynamics.

 Comments:  
          =  My =20 dynamised  version of soiless farming , is essentially based on = serially=20 potentised cell-salts( derived from organic nutrient extracts ) in = vortices=20 of  structured water created by clock - wise and=20 anti-clock-wise
whirlpooling in  a washing machine. Steiner = might have=20 found there was SOME THICKENING OF THE NUTRIENT SOLUTION by this = directional=20 alternating centrifuging method.. Together with the coconut husk - = highly=20 absorbent, rich in Potash and a consistent pH ( in the form of CHIPS or = COCO=20 FIBRE DUST - coir pith blocks )  and charcoal, the combination will = form=20 the compost , the process initiated by the vibratory signatures of=20 cell-salts
found in organic nutrients.
           The=20 highly sensitive,electromagnetic layers of
structured water, = provide=20 efficient  receptors for Cosmic Harmonics of vibratory  Forms = and=20 Nutrients for Biological Transmutation. The receptacle for the plant is = the=20 COCONUT itself. Holes are drilled in the receptacle = for
aeration of=20 the root system.
       Perhaps you = might want=20 to know how I dynamise by generating a liquid
vortex in a washing=20 machine.
          &= nbsp;     =20 Please click Vortex: Generation of a Liquid Vortex

http://lewfh.tripod.com/coloursarecodedfrequenciesi= nphotonicbandgapcrystalstructures/

With=20 regrads
     Lew

 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 RC = Macaulay=20
Sent: Monday, April 11, 2005 = 11:32=20 AM
Subject: Re: water into = wine

Thanks Frank and Jones, I often use the GSU physics website for=20 reference.
 
From the series of posts on this thread I suggest water has the = ability=20 to mimic the  energy storage ability like a capacitor has = the=20 ability to store an electric charge. From our work using vortex mixing = some=20 interesting observations have been logged over the years that suggest = this=20 ability of water to store energy. The = total energy stored seems=20 to arrive  from other than hydrostatic or induced head = unless the=20 energy stored has a cumulative property of its own. 
 
We often use " shapes" upstream of the regime to induce a=20 vortex ahead of the mixing regime or channel.  In some=20 installations this induced vortex seems to release energy on = its own=20 which greatly assists the mixing. The standard formula used in mixing = is =20 by calculating for G  (the mixing velocity gradient) =  estimated as=20 the square root of the horsepower of the mixing motor divided by the = volume of=20 the mixing regime  times the viscosity of water assumed = as =20 .0000235
The superior mixing results using " these vortex inducing shapes = can be=20 demonstrated by introducing dye with the chemical and observing the = downstream=20 results.

 Granted that horsepower is horse hockey and torque is = what a=20 mule has in his rear, the formula for input horsepower vs mixing = intensity=20 simply doesn't " hold water" pun intended.
 
Frank's math goes a long way to addressing the mystery
 
Richard
 
 
--Boundary_(ID_RLCmvi6GQtC185/oSfo/1w)-- --Boundary_(ID_WrdmwgDHEI67iKUr/WOJ0A) Content-id: <001d01c53e87$4864cd80$1e38bcca fhlew> Content-type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-transfer-encoding: base64 Content-disposition: attachment; filename="Blank Bkgrd.gif" R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== --Boundary_(ID_WrdmwgDHEI67iKUr/WOJ0A)-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 11 05:13:24 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3BCDEPl005571; Mon, 11 Apr 2005 05:13:16 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3BCDCJT005562; Mon, 11 Apr 2005 05:13:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 05:13:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Why the U.S. Needs More Nuclear Power Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 22:13:00 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j3BCD8Pl005498 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59118 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Horace Heffner's message of Mon, 11 Apr 2005 01:26:34 -0800: Hi, This should bring you up to date: http://www.pacificsolar.com.au/ [snip] >Thanks for the response. Maybe this has something to do with what I remebered: > >At 7:14 PM 5/22/96, Martin Edmund Sevior wrote: >>I've just read the annual report on the Center for PhotoVoltaics at University >>of New South Wales, in Sydney. These are the guys who hold the patents on the >>most efficient solar cells in mass production and who also hold the world >>record for efficiency of Silicon solar cells (24%). Last year they obtained >>patents on a new technology that will produce solar cells cheap enough to >>compete with conventional "Grid connected" electricity. It is based on >>multi-layer polycrystaline silicon deposited on glass substrates. These are >>only 50 microns thick. They've demonstrated the technology can produce cells >>of 17% efficiency which is already greater than their target efficiency of >>15%. They expect to produce cells that cost around $2 per peak watt. >> >>These cells can then be mounted on cheap "non-imaging" concentrators of their >>own design that do not need to move to track the sun. Their design >>concentrates light by a factor of 4 while only losing 15% of the total >>light incident. The concentrators are robust enough to be >>used as roof cladding. The combination of the "thin" cells and the concentrator >>will reduce the cost of solar energy to $0.5 per peak watt. At this price >>solar energy is fully competitive with fossil fuel power. >> >>They have formed a partnership with the State of New South Wales electricity >>Uitility, Pacific Power and are 1 year into 5 year plan to mass produce these >>systems. The plan has Pacific Power investing 64 million dollars over the >>5 years to bring the technology to commercial reality. They have exceeded their >>own milestones in the first year of operation. >> >>What has this to do with CF? Namely all those guys out their who think they >>will make tons of money from their marvellous inventions they can't tell >>anyone about had better be aware of this tidal wave from solar energy. If >>there is something to CF it will need the full attention of the world's >>scientific community and the world's capital markets to exploit. >> >>I have no more patience with people who say they have fantastic results and >>devices but can't let you try it for yourself. I will name names. CETI, >>Reed Huish, E-QUEST, Mills and Piantelli, the world doesn't need CF. >>It will be ignored until convincing evidence is made widespread AND anyone >>who wants to replicate an effect can and does. >> >>Martin Sevior > > >At 1:32 PM 4/24/97, Martin Sevior wrote: >>Gnorts Vorts! >> >>Some of you may remember that last year I posted some information about >>Solar Photovoltaic cells. The gist of the post was that a collaboration >>between the Photovoltaics Special Research Center at the University of >>New South Wales in Sydney, Australia and Pacific Solar exists with the >>aim of reducing the cost of Solar Cells by a factor of 5 - 10 in a 5 year >>research and development program. Pacific Solar is a wholly owned subsidary >>of Pacific Power the electric Utility of the Australian State of New South >>Wales (NSW). They have an installed capacity of about 12 Gigawatts. >> >>The collaboration has completed the first 2 years of the project and >>state "they >>are ahead of schedule". The technology they're developing is thin silicon >>deposited on glass. Unfortunately details are scetchy because of >>confidentiality clauses, but my contacts say they have advanced the field >>"incredibly" well. >> >>A parallel development are the roof tile project, which employs a >>non-imaging concentrator to reduce the amount of silicon needed for a working >>cell. The device could also be used for a roofing material in one's house. >>They've acheived 4:1 improvement in light concentration in a device with >>an overall efficiency of 19%. >> >>At the same time they've developed an invertor that allows locally >>generated power (within a property) to be sent out to the grid. The electric >>distribution utilities in oz will then give a credit for all energy >>generated and sent out to the grid. >> >>There is already a market in oz from people who are willing to pay extra for >>electricity generated within their own property. Systems which >>cost about $10,000 give you essentially free electricity, once you take your >>credits. So they appear to be priming the market for consumer supported >>electricty generation. If they can deliver a system that gives free >>electricty for $2000, which appears feasible on current projections, the >>system would pay for itself in less than 4 years. At that point the market >>would explode. >> >>I'll keep you informed of progress. I'll repeat what I said last year. The >>world doesn't need CF to achieve sustainable economic growth. >> >>Martin Sevior > >Regards, > >Horace Heffner > Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 11 05:18:48 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3BCIcPl007773; Mon, 11 Apr 2005 05:18:38 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3BCIaIf007746; Mon, 11 Apr 2005 05:18:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 05:18:36 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Why the U.S. Needs More Nuclear Power Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 22:18:27 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j3BCIWPl007707 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59119 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Robin van Spaandonk's message of Mon, 11 Apr 2005 22:13:00 +1000: Hi, [snip] >In reply to Horace Heffner's message of Mon, 11 Apr 2005 01:26:34 >-0800: >Hi, > >This should bring you up to date: > >http://www.pacificsolar.com.au/ > See also http://www.csgsolar.com/ . [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 11 06:49:55 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3BDncPl008033; Mon, 11 Apr 2005 06:49:39 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3BDnbr3008024; Mon, 11 Apr 2005 06:49:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 06:49:37 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050411094820.02bed008 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 09:49:32 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Gardian newspaper discussion of CF Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59120 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Somewhere in the Guardian's on line discussions there is a link to LENR-CANR. I don't see it, but anyway I found this discussion of CF: http://talk.guardian.co.uk/webx?50 24.inptea6EQbj.3@.7747c42f - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 11 07:38:41 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3BEcQPl006268; Mon, 11 Apr 2005 07:38:27 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3BEcL4b006239; Mon, 11 Apr 2005 07:38:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 07:38:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=wcFM0kWW9rlulPL3BhZhQg88/1JYZUwDjz/TD6zkCR8nWKjFVUF9Ffi68SSo3Q/CJoVkGarAPhLDJP5f25aKKL17LdTrsPovJG9jLAwIGd7kQDOtTi06nMFrRYQRAXlKQOqgAQsdu6LSgYn6WqzHkP9Xxw4q7sj0zNK4DcX/xxs= ; Message-ID: <20050411143808.12769.qmail web60306.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 07:38:08 -0700 (PDT) From: Nick Reiter Subject: Re: The Invisible Man To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <20050411044623.DF1163DCA xprdmailfe6.nwk.excite.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59121 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Michael, You might like to read this article - written about 10 years ago by a researcher in California. The author, Donna Higbee, describes some further cases of the phenomenon. Apart from Ms. Higbee's paper, I had not heard anything more about the effect until this posting by you! http://members.aol.com/Rapunz1/invisibility.html To me, it plays into the "meta-concept" of a shared perceptual Matrix-esque state. Way too many years of chasing spooks, aliens, pk claims, and other things that evaporate into nothin' has at least led me into the pondering of a "strong model" for the Jungian Collective Unconscious. The human internet. Figure out how the wireless connection works and THERE you'll have something! nr --- Michael Foster wrote: > > Ok, Vorts... Since this list has disintegrated into > an over the back > fence discussion group concerning theology and > things that go > bump in the night, here's one you might find > interesting. I often > become the Invisible Man. No, really. > > When Bill posted that bit about the disappearing > coffee stir stick, I > had to chuckle. That sort of thing happens to me so > frequently that I > hardly notice it. It happens to others in my > presence. Things > disappear for months or years anywhere within arms > length of me. > My employes just make sure there are lots of > whatever I need > around just so when something necessary disappears > for a while, > there's another one to use. I have no control over > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Make Yahoo! your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 11 07:48:45 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3BEmCPl010502; Mon, 11 Apr 2005 07:48:15 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3BEmACI010455; Mon, 11 Apr 2005 07:48:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 07:48:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=MC0e60Nwyzlaj7FlFwZuyZwPE51BlWyxpDS/JqLU5Du5g0bkWuL6JCZEx163W7Ba39EVDyer3Lu5pVAm+wLCpbRLHKnAsc/c8iDnvt8yZO1Hmd1BQWqXaMOGDlO67uGae2hOmNP+0iUcSHFV6cNP+Ga03IdaNCzttBdRRGvHZ4I= ; Message-ID: <20050411144749.45101.qmail web51704.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 07:47:48 -0700 (PDT) From: Terry Blanton Subject: Re: Opening the door for YOU, just a crack... To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: 6667 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1095341164-1113230868=:44163" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59122 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-1095341164-1113230868=:44163 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hah! Ever step through? Why waste your time learning LD? Try this while it's still legal: http://www.biopark.org/ayahuasca.html Keith Nagel wrote: Find a mirror in the dream time, and look into it. Wow. You never expected THAT, did you? --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! --0-1095341164-1113230868=:44163 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Hah!  Ever step through? <cheshiregrinning>
 
Why waste your time learning LD?  Try this while it's still legal:
 
http://www.biopark.org/ayahuasca.html

Keith Nagel <knagel gis.net> wrote:
 
Find a mirror in the dream time,
and look into it. Wow. You never expected THAT, did you?

Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! --0-1095341164-1113230868=:44163-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 11 07:56:01 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3BEtZPl017900; Mon, 11 Apr 2005 07:55:39 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3BEtUHa017729; Mon, 11 Apr 2005 07:55:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 07:55:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20050411145522.79218.qmail web81104.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 07:55:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: The Invisible Man To: vortex-L eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <20050411044623.DF1163DCA xprdmailfe6.nwk.excite.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <3fRGyD.A.6UE.h_oWCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59123 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --- Michael Foster wrote: > I often become the Invisible Man. No, really. The "Invisible Man Syndrome" -- IMS for short. It is an affliction particularly characteristic to North America...and probably an emergent meme, deriveing from Sci-Fi. You might enjoy a 20 year old comedy feature "Amazon Women on the Moon" which lampoons several B-film genres of the time. One sketch is a vignette titled "Son of the Invisible Man" wherein a naked Ed Begley Jr. portrays a man who thinks he's invisible, but who is actually right there in plain sight to everyone else, and no doubt emote "au naturelee" in full view of the "em-bare-assed" supporting cast. http://movies2.nytimes.com/gst/movies/movie.html?v_id=1812 There could be a lesson in there somewhere... Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 11 08:39:28 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3BFdAPl007296; Mon, 11 Apr 2005 08:39:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3BFd8e3007284; Mon, 11 Apr 2005 08:39:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 08:39:08 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Standing Bear To: Jed Rothwell , vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: New battery technology Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 11:45:51 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 References: <7669066.1113061016832.JavaMail.root wamui02.slb.atl.earthlink.net> In-Reply-To: <7669066.1113061016832.JavaMail.root wamui02.slb.atl.earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200504111145.51092.rockcast earthlink.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59124 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Saturday 09 April 2005 11:36, Jed Rothwell wrote: > Standing Bear wrote: > The legal problems were caused by the Three Mile Island accident. It was > the most expensive industrial accident in history by far. It nearly > bankrupted the power company. The detractors never cause 0.01% as much > trouble as the people who designed that plant, Opposition to nuclear power existed in force long before the Three Mile Island reactor number 4 incident. It was based on the flawed and empty logic that if some isotopes had a half life of thousands or more years and had any non zero possibility of being created in any reactor even in quantities of a few atoms, then we as a society should neither construct nor operate them; and we should influence our free world allies to do the same. This was to be done in the face of a crash program to construct them in the non-free world nations. Later the possibility of sabotage was added as another 'fear factor' militating the aggressive pacifists desire for our nation to disarm and depower,.....and later deindustrialize itself. The very idea that nuclear opponents caused "0.01% as much trouble" is a big lie straight out of Hitler's 'Mein Kampf'---tell a big lie and tell it often and sooner or later it will be believed. The three mile island disaster was only a random event that played into the hands of the anti-nuclear crowd and its foreign financed and advised propaganda machine. It served to accelerate the campaign among apathetic Americans numbed by their television sets, but it ocurred long after the agitation was started. As for it being the most expensive industrial accident. That is another tarnished jewel in the crown of thorns of the anti nuclear propaganda campaign. If one wants to count lives as well as money, that award could go to Union Carbide. Its Bhopal, India plant was a sterling example of American jobs exported to wherever it was cheapest. Cheapest in terms of safety, of wages, of environmental protection....you name it. It turns out Union Carbide was right. They are even now getting the best foreign justice that money can buy, and its victims are too economically weak to be listened to, especially by a Congress Party government. Who remembers them here? If they are cut, do they not bleed as well as we? Were they not, in terms of the religious among us, also created in God's image; or are they of less value because they are of a different faith......or race? The three mile island was also worth quite a bit to the anti-nukers for teaching them that financial and legal tools were potent weapons in the hands of the proper barrators. The lawsuits flowing out of the affair were continued for years and all out of proportion to the real damage. It was here that the lesson that there was profit to be made from yelling fire in a crowded theater was driven home in thousand dollar bills. Never had treason prospered more, as frivolous lawsuit followed preposterous claim; and all had to be defended in court and the expenses counted in the balance sheets of the utilities. It was found that frivolity made money even when there was no real cause, as suits and motions were rained down on a hapless power industry whose only mission was to make money. They did not care how they made money, and discontinuing the nuclear option was an easy way to quite the noise and money drain. The anti-nukers then fatuously claimed that nuclear power plants were expensive when the anti-nukers themselves had caused the expense!! Well the anti-nuke Americans had their say, no more nuclear plants were constructed here since then. But that does not mean the rest of the world followed. > > Plant construction stopped all over the world, including in Japan and > Russia, which were not affected by the Viet-Nam war or draft dodger > mentality. > > - Jed Plant construction was slow to arrive in Japan due to a national phobia against nuclear power arising from the actual use of nuclear weapons on Japan in the great war. Arrive it did, however. It is a sad, bad fact of life in Japan that they are a hard working people who have had the bad luck to inherit a piece of this rock with little in the nature of real industrially usable energy resources. True, parts of the island are among the windiest places on earth (wind power); and parts of the island have really wild surf (wave power). Other parts of the island are geologically quite active (geothermal power). Where economically feasible, these either have or will be exploited. However, Japan's population is large for the size of the nation, and problems of expense in developement of these resources involve designing for some of the largest destructive forces in nature. Typhoons with wind speeds in excess of 300 kilometers per hour strike this island (really STRONG windmills); Waves from these same storms and from Nor'easters that have to be seen to be believed can wreak their own havoc as well (really STRONG wave energy extractors that can operate under water and withstand high water velocities; and geothermal plants must be prepared for quick evacuation in case of volcanic eruptions....which DO occur in Japan. The Japanese realized that renewables was not going to do the job for them. The alternative was to compete man for man with the cheapest, poorest, and one of the most highly skilled and brutally disciplined labor forces on the face of the planet, the Chinese. This competition was to be without sufficient energy! In effect, to listen to the anti-nuke crowd in Japan was to convert the whole country's labor force to coolie labor at the lowest possible wage. The Chinese are building nuclear plants as well, so once the Chinese build enough of them..... with western money by the way financed with the profits of American jobs exported there in search of cheap labor.....then the Chinese will take the coolie jobs from the by now impoverished Japanese as well and they will be left with nothing.....courtesy of American hippies and yippies! The Japanese, not wanting this, are on a crash course to build not only nuclear power, but the breeder cycle as well. It is only by this and other means that Japan will be able even hope to sustain itself. The Russians are now seeking nuclear power again as well. The new designs will probably be much better than the Tchernobl model, and they will be built everywhere. The French were tempted by their own fanatics to commit economic suicide, but never did, and France is now supplied over 70 percent by nuclear power. The Armenians have been blackmailed by the Bush crowd to shutter their plant which saved their lives a few years ago, but I think the final stumbling block will be whether our government will agree to supply free petroleum or natural gas or coal fuel to the chemical power plants that we want them to construct...and supply it forever at American taxpayer expense. For expense if the real bottom line. The Germans made a large amount of political propaganda out of shutting down their German nuclear plants. The 'Die Gruenen Partei' profited in German polls. Now with Germany becoming energy short, the Greens are not as popular. The German initiative was well recieved in France, as Germany is becoming or soon to become a very good customer buying nuclear generated electricity from the French. Just like environmentalist Oregon shunned hydro power only to be forced by economics to not only want to by Washington State's hydro power from the WPPSS, but to go to federal court over 20 years ago to force the state to sell it. They were'nt too proud to use it. It was really just 'NIMBY' on a large scale. YOU build it and WE will take the advantage of it. WE were damn fools, so YOU can pay for our foolishness. The Chinese are also building the breeder cycle. They have coal, but they want to use it for other things as well, which is a wise decision. They, having originally exported trouble making all over the world in the past, will brook no such hooliganism at home. China has been a quiet place since Tian-an-Men. It appears that this lesson has been learned by the present American administration as well. The head torturer in Iraq is now Attorney General. If that does not scare you, you are numb from the neck up. The reaction from the extreme environmentalist movement is now gathering. Every job lost to foreign 'outsourcing' will create in the person layed off a new opponent of 'free trade', 'environmental protection', and 'globalism', and 'competitiveness'. Every time one goes to the gas station and fuels on expensive gasoline, he/she will think of 'OPEC, the 'WTO', the 'UN', the 'Group of Eight', and others and silently burn. This fire will take light and burn among the masses, gathering in the small towns depopulated by the departure of its only industry, spreading to the other places newly populated by illegal aliens let in here by administrations controlled by big business that wanted to take advantage of the low wages and control opportunities presented by them. The firestorm of protest that is coming will be joined by those illegals as well, for they will recognize that they are now in the same boat as the rest of the Americans. Mexico has the same problems as well. These new Americans know how to fight revolutions. The politicos that allowed their immigration will be proved to be fools! The Mexicans learned revolution from their ancestors in the Revolution of 1910. New demonstration campaigns might find that the climate in this country has changed and will change more as fuel gets still more expensive. Expensive will BE the rule of the day as easily obtained fossil fuels are running out at a geometrically increasing rate. The new storm of protest will sweep all environmentalists before it and look for something to blame their new poverty on. A new Robespierre heading a new 'Committee of Public Safety' will visit a new 'reign of the guillotine' on those who allowed the present state and future trend of affairs to happen. Nuclear power is the salvation of these people, and these people will come to know it! If not myself or people like me, then others even less charitable to the luddites of the late 20th century. Our children will live to see and hear the cry: "To the wall with traitors!" They will know what they had and lost, and who took it from them! Many will tell them. The archives are everywhere. In every junkyard are the old large cars that common people paid only a few thousand dollars for and which cost little to run and carried people safely. Libraries exist in every small town and city in the country. The crimes of the luddites are everywhere on record. The prosecuters are in the sixth grade. Soon they will grow up. What kind of trial do the economic saboteurs of the past want? Standing Bear From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 11 08:47:55 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3BFlZPl013471; Mon, 11 Apr 2005 08:47:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3BFlWNe013437; Mon, 11 Apr 2005 08:47:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 08:47:32 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=QJbM66bYG74Ojz9el+t01fgXeQGvB5RfbZWAPmFWIGoehU3tA4ghuEjTHghtamQs3OfazLiXegk/ZQq7rXJuTqNIpszZ+mSJBw6NhLLol9yDyJS3+08JJ+Jkp4gw78+pi6RWovKawKbhlfkxX8EEWE1Pc0qlNi72Pj0H5++dnkQ= Message-ID: Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 08:47:19 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The Invisible Man In-Reply-To: <20050411145522.79218.qmail web81104.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 References: <20050411044623.DF1163DCA xprdmailfe6.nwk.excite.com> <20050411145522.79218.qmail web81104.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j3BFlJPl013190 Resent-Message-ID: <87bReC.A.yRD.UwpWCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59125 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: might i suggest a short story, i believe by harlann ellison, though not sure on that, by the title of "buckle down winsocki" ? its about a man who experiences such episodes until he becomes totally invisible to all except those like him. i doubt youll like the explanation of why, but its an interesting read. i used to be able to do this almost at will, though not to that point, i was able to not be casually noticed, but of the person was alert, or looking for someone, it wouldnt work, thought that ability has faded as ive become less shy myself. On Apr 11, 2005 7:55 AM, Jones Beene wrote: > --- Michael Foster wrote: > > > I often become the Invisible Man. No, really. > > The "Invisible Man Syndrome" -- IMS for short. It is > an affliction particularly characteristic to North > America...and probably an emergent meme, deriveing > from Sci-Fi. > > You might enjoy a 20 year old comedy feature "Amazon > Women on the Moon" which lampoons several B-film > genres of the time. One sketch is a vignette titled > "Son of the Invisible Man" wherein a naked Ed Begley > Jr. portrays a man who thinks he's invisible, but who > is actually right there in plain sight to everyone > else, and no doubt emote "au naturelee" in full view > of the "em-bare-assed" supporting cast. > > http://movies2.nytimes.com/gst/movies/movie.html?v_id=1812 > > There could be a lesson in there somewhere... > > Jones > > -- "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 11 08:51:13 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3BFp2Pl015488; Mon, 11 Apr 2005 08:51:02 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3BFox2L015463; Mon, 11 Apr 2005 08:50:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 08:50:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20050411155047.94017.qmail web81104.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 08:50:47 -0700 (PDT) From: Jones Beene Subject: What me worry... To: vortex-L eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59126 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Isn't it ironic...? (from the perspective of 'nomen est numen') The name of the newly elected president of Iraq, that is... Alfred E Newman How come we have to choose from just 2 people for President, but 50 for Miss America... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 11 09:00:40 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3BG06Pp019057; Mon, 11 Apr 2005 09:00:28 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3BFsMdf016644; Mon, 11 Apr 2005 08:54:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 08:54:22 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=TmDrgAR1uBl7PCRR3R/cJ/cWsMDUbGGqUnrRorftD2uWWhnE8UXthQdUq/o139iu8RL70Tb//hiZs34aWFS98CWDNcfCN+l8uF66fvvgEQz8BnbFTKXjR4IbgrfYqs9DKsWdO/kt9fBzO1psIwcre9PJQ3JKcomz2KuaezGJwhg= Message-ID: Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 08:52:25 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Opening the door for YOU, just a crack... In-Reply-To: <20050411144749.45101.qmail web51704.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 References: <20050411144749.45101.qmail web51704.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j3BFsEPl016582 Resent-Message-ID: <2BVgSD.A.6DE.s2pWCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59127 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: sorry. ive always been of the opinion that anything that alters my mind, and in particular my senses and how they interact, in a non predictive, nonrepeatable way, jeapordizes the trust i can place in my senses. and if i cant trust the senses, well, what good am i as a scientist? therefore, anything that occured under such conditions is automattically suspect. in other words, if i cant create the effect on my own, i cant study it properly. On Apr 11, 2005 7:47 AM, Terry Blanton wrote: > > Hah! Ever step through? > > Why waste your time learning LD? Try this while it's still legal: > > http://www.biopark.org/ayahuasca.html > > Keith Nagel wrote: > > Find a mirror in the dream time, > and look into it. Wow. You never expected THAT, did you? > > ________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! > > -- "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 11 09:24:13 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3BGNxPl030357; Mon, 11 Apr 2005 09:23:59 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3BGNuSg030327; Mon, 11 Apr 2005 09:23:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 09:23:56 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050411122109.02be23d0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 12:23:39 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Prius hybrids selling at a premium Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_2336125==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: <4WuEqC.A.uZH.cSqWCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59128 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --=====================_2336125==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed See: http://money.cnn.com/2005/04/11/Autos/used_prius/index.htm QUOTES: Used Prius prices like new High gas prices, long waits bring used Prius prices above list price of a new model, study says. NEW YORK (CNN/Money) - Demand for the gas-electric hybrid Prius is so great that some used Priuses are selling for more than the list price for a new one, a report said on Monday. . . . The survey said that 8 percent of the consumers considered hybrid vehicles in March, twice as much as 4 percent in February. It also said if gas prices reach $3 per gallon 77 percent of car shoppers will seriously consider a more fuel efficient vehicle. . . . The 2005 Prius also had the highest owner satisfaction of any 2005 model, according to an owner survey by Consumer Reports magazine. . . . A spokesman for Toyota told CNN that the wait time for a new Prius hybrid is currently about 2 months, down from 6 months last year because of an increase in production. . . . --=====================_2336125==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" See:

http://money.cnn.com/2005/04/11/Autos/used_prius/index.htm

QUOTES:

Used Prius prices like new
High gas prices, long waits bring used Prius prices above list price of a new model, study says.

NEW YORK (CNN/Money) - Demand for the gas-electric hybrid Prius is so great that some used Priuses are selling for more than the list price for a new one, a report said on Monday.

. . .

The survey said that 8 percent of the consumers considered hybrid vehicles in March, twice as much as 4 percent in February. It also said if gas prices reach $3 per gallon 77 percent of car shoppers will seriously consider a more fuel efficient vehicle.

. . .

The 2005 Prius also had the highest owner satisfaction of any 2005 model, according to an owner survey by Consumer Reports magazine.

. . .

A spokesman for Toyota told CNN that the wait time for a new Prius hybrid is currently about 2 months, down from 6 months last year because of an increase in production. . . .
 --=====================_2336125==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 11 09:33:34 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3BGXJPl002027; Mon, 11 Apr 2005 09:33:19 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3BGXIvO002014; Mon, 11 Apr 2005 09:33:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 09:33:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <425AA6AC.6090004 ihug.co.nz> Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 04:32:44 +1200 From: John Berry User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: SONY Patents Metaverse First Step References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59129 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: *On the subject of magnetic fields on the brain (tempted to try this one):* * From Keelynet:* * NOTE: This was from a conversation I had several years ago, so the details might be a bit fuzzy....>>> Jerry* *Walter Rawls, who worked with the effects of monopolar magnetic fields on matter with the late Albert Roy Davis, told me in a telephone conversation of his experiments with a North pole magnet situated over the pineal gland.* *A mask was made which held the North pole end of a long cylindrical magnet over the pineal gland. The purpose was to stimulate the gland and see if there was anything to this 'third eye' business. Exposure was in the range of 10-30 minutes per day over a period of about 4 weeks.* *Within the first week, he was sitting at his desk reading documents when he noticed something move out of the corner of his eye. As he looked up, the ghostly figure of a man had walked through one wall, moved across the room and disappeared through another wall. The figure was totally unaware of Walter. Further exposures to this North pole field took place over a second and third week.* *The second week, the same ghostly figure moved through the room and glanced toward Walter as he passed through. This time, the figure appeared to have slightly more detail, not quite so ghostly.* *The third week, busy working on documents, Walter noticed a change in the room. When he looked up, the wall had dissolved away and he was looking at a small hill where a man and woman sat beneath a tree. It was the same ghostly male figure who he'd seen on the other occasions. He sat quite still, watching this pastoral scene for several minutes.* *The man looked over toward Walter and appeared startled. It was as if he clearly SAW Walter this time and possibly recognized Walter as the ghost he had seen the previous week! The image faded away and the wall restored to its normal condition. From that moment on, Walter never used the pineal stimulator again.* *In conversations about this, with Walter and other interested people, it was mentioned that there is a theory that we have multiple energy bodies, much like the KA and the BA of ancient Egypt. Each energy body lives in another reality, yet communicates with our consciousness here in this reality.* *Another comment was that consciousness simply creates an energy body in whatever reality it VISITS. Prolonged presence in a given reality increases the density of the energy body, moving from a phantom, ghostly form that was at first not easily perceptible to the inhabitants of the other reality until the intruding energy body had become sufficiently dense to trigger their senses.* *That could explain why repeated exposures would add density to Walter's other reality body, allowing its denizens to perceive him, thus the startled reaction from the male figure.* Keith Nagel wrote: >Hi Terry, > >Boy, is this ever a product liability nightmare! > >You will remember back in the good old days, when Vo users actually >posted about invention and technology, that our own John Schnurer >had done some work for the USAF concerning this technology. The >modality was magnetic eddy current induction, the apparatus was >nothing more than some large electrolytic caps, an SCR, and >a 1 or 2 turn coil proximate to the users head. The results >could be pretty profound, with users reporting sensory experiences >similar to what are described in your article. It might also >be noted that when certain centers of the brain are stimulated >people report religious experiences, but obviously we risk >being burned at the stake for such heresy so I'll just move on... > >The liability issue comes up due the the normal variation in >brains and the precision needed for the stimulation. Clearly >the coil approach is gross stimulation; ultrasonic is much >finer and a substantial improvement in the art. That said, John wrote >me about a very disturbing event that occurred in the course >of testing. By accident, the optic nerve was stimulated in >one experiment. The result was blindness, which lasted about >15-30 minutes until the residual stimulation subsided. Needless >to say, the workers and test subject were pretty upset about >this. One could imagine a variety of negative results if the >stimulation misses, including disruption of some pretty important >bodily functions. Cave, Frater. > >I never had the balls to reproduce those experiments, although I >have all the fixings at my fingertips here in the lab. Anyone >want to volunteer? (grin). > >K. > >BTW, does anyone know what happened to John? I haven't heard from >him in years, and like many creative people, he was prone to >go flapping off into the darkness now and then. > >-----Original Message----- >From: Terry Blanton [mailto:terry1094 yahoo.com] >Sent: Friday, April 08, 2005 1:20 PM >To: vortex-l eskimo.com >Subject: SONY Patents Metaverse First Step > > >"IMAGINE movies and computer games in which you get to smell, taste and perhaps even feel things. That's the tantalising prospect >raised by a patent on a device for transmitting sensory data directly into the human brain - granted to none other than the >entertainment giant Sony." > >http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=mg18624944.600 >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >http://mail.yahoo.com > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 11 09:39:40 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3BGcvPl003974; Mon, 11 Apr 2005 09:38:57 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3BGctd9003950; Mon, 11 Apr 2005 09:38:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 09:38:55 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050411123208.02bef5b8 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 12:38:40 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Wayback machine archiving LENR-CANR Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59130 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A The Internet Wayback Machine has archived LENR-CANR 30 times. It copies the entire site, including all papers. For example: http://web.archive.org/web/20030415105306/lenr-canr.org/acrobat/BottaEsearchforh.pdf I wonder how many people read our papers from here instead of the present site. Probably not many. Prof. Li maintains a mirror site of LENR-CANR for people in China, who have difficulty accessing overseas sites. I have difficulty reaching China, and the mirror site. It is here: http://iccf9.global.tsinghua.edu.cn/lenr%20home%20page - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 11 09:51:53 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3BGpYPl011299; Mon, 11 Apr 2005 09:51:35 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3BGpUjg011261; Mon, 11 Apr 2005 09:51:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 09:51:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <000e01c53eb6$b18105c0$0100007f xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: water into wine Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 11:50:43 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000A_01C53E8C.B14E00F0"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-100.0 required=4.0 tests=HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59131 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C53E8C.B14E00F0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000B_01C53E8C.B14F8790" ------=_NextPart_001_000B_01C53E8C.B14F8790 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankFW Lew, interesting gif 's shown on your link.=20 You mention reversing the rotation of a vortex. We have a plexiglas test = tank used for observing the generation of a vortex by a mixer.. see = www.gasmastrrr.com for a view of the vortex pattern induced by a 3450 = RPM rotating member. Using a 3 phase motor permits us to reverse the phase and observe = counter or clockwise rotation of the vortex . Being in the northern = hemisphere we notice a difference in the spiral of the vortex when = clockwise rotation is inducing the vortex. The dynamics of the " seething" cauldron of mixing motion produced in = the glass tank demonstrates the energy released. The vortex produced = actually causes some of the plexiglas bottom to vanish by electron = action. . A visual of the spiral vortices spun off the main vortex column can be = seen because the entrained air permits the vortices to be visible. We = have a large tank with viewing windows for tests of larger HP units ( 5- = 100 HP) that we use for our continued applied research in testing " = shapes" of various vacuum induction producing units. Some of the test = logs are awesome. For example. Aeration of wastewater in a small plant bybubbling = compressed air into the basin uses a set of 20HP blowers to produce the = required air volume to transfer oxygen in sufficent quanities to aerate = the basin over a 24 hour time frame. We tested an air induction unit of 5HP and achieved better oxygen = transfer rate results than with the two 20HP blowers. The air induction = feeder mixer literally lifted the bottom solids up into the spiral = vortex and recirculated the entire basin water past the rotating member = as it feed air at velocity shear of 105 f/p/s. Attempts to calculate = the oxygen transfer rate we recorded via a DO analyzer was a waste of = time because the empirical data developed over time that was used to = derive the math formula was in such conflict with the DO recordings. These years of data collected by tests of various shapes are beginning = to mature into some interesting new ideas on ultrahigh speed rotation = for inducing vortexes. Our tests to date on these high speed units have = been hindered by failures of the mechanical drives. Speeding up the = rotation past 3450 RPM up to max of 10,000 RPM using sheaves and VFD = drive control has brought us a whole new set of problems with premature = failure.=20 In thr real world of industrial products, a manufacturer like us must = first demonstrate the device will run without failure for the time it = takes to amortize the investment. As in the case of stockbrokers, the = users want to overcome the cost in under two years and in more and more = cases they want a max of 6 months recovery of costs. All of which makes life most exciting to the designer while the vortex = mystery play moves to the next act. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_000B_01C53E8C.B14F8790 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
FW Lew,  interesting gif 's  shown on your link.
 
You mention reversing the rotation of a vortex. We have a plexiglas = test=20 tank used for observing the generation of a vortex by a mixer.. see www.gasmastrrr.com for a view of = the vortex=20 pattern induced by a 3450 RPM rotating member.
 
Using a 3 phase motor permits us to reverse the phase and observe = counter=20 or clockwise rotation of the vortex . Being in the  northern = hemisphere we=20 notice a difference in the spiral of the vortex when clockwise rotation = is=20 inducing the vortex.
The dynamics of the " seething" cauldron of mixing motion produced = in the=20 glass tank demonstrates the energy released. The vortex produced = actually causes=20 some of the plexiglas bottom to vanish by electron action.
 
. A visual of the spiral vortices spun off the main vortex = column can=20 be seen  because the entrained air permits the vortices to be = visible.=20 We have a large tank with viewing windows for tests of larger HP units ( = 5- 100=20 HP) that we use for our continued applied research in  testing " = shapes"=20 of various vacuum induction producing units. Some of the test logs = are=20 awesome.
For example. Aeration of  wastewater in a  small = plant =20 bybubbling compressed air into the basin uses a set of 20HP blowers to = produce=20 the required air volume to transfer oxygen in sufficent quanities = to aerate=20 the basin over a 24 hour time frame.
 
 We tested an air induction unit of 5HP and achieved better = oxygen=20 transfer rate results than with the two 20HP blowers. The air induction = feeder=20 mixer literally lifted the bottom solids up into the spiral vortex = and =20 recirculated the entire basin water past the rotating member as it feed = air at=20 velocity shear of 105 f/p/s. Attempts to calculate  the oxygen = transfer=20 rate we recorded via a DO analyzer was a waste of time because the = empirical=20 data developed over time that was used to derive the math formula was in = such=20 conflict with the DO recordings.
 
These years of data collected by tests of various shapes are = beginning to=20 mature into some interesting new ideas on ultrahigh speed rotation  = for=20 inducing vortexes. Our tests to date on these high speed units have been = hindered by failures of the mechanical drives. Speeding up the rotation = past=20 3450 RPM up  to max of 10,000 RPM using sheaves and VFD drive = control has=20 brought us a whole new set of problems with premature failure.
 
In thr real world of industrial products, a manufacturer like us = must first=20 demonstrate the device will run without failure for the time it takes to = amortize the investment. As in the case of stockbrokers, the users want = to=20 overcome the cost in under two years and in more and more cases they = want a max=20 of 6 months recovery of costs.
 
All of which makes life most exciting to the designer while  = the=20 vortex mystery play moves to the next act.
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_000B_01C53E8C.B14F8790-- ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C53E8C.B14E00F0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000901c53eb6$9a1032d0$0100007f xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C53E8C.B14E00F0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 11 11:24:08 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3BINpPl024442; Mon, 11 Apr 2005 11:23:51 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3BINmH0024400; Mon, 11 Apr 2005 11:23:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 11:23:48 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <3spcf3$6dskk2 mxip04a.cluster1.charter.net> X-Ironport-AV: i="3.92,94,1112587200"; d="scan'208"; a="215896706:sNHT13434994" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.12 (webedge20-101-197-20030912) From: To: CC: Subject: OT: The Missing Five Commandments Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 18:23:40 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59132 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The recent conversation between the esteemed Mr. Malloy and Dr. Storms brought to my attention a little known fact that originally there were 15 commandments brought down from the mountain by Moses. As we all know, (Assuming you have seen Mel Brook's movie "History of the World, Part 1") Moses came down carrying three stone tablets in his arms. Unfortunately, one of the three tablets accidentally fell out of his arms and was destroyed. As I have said in the past, anyone, including Moses, can have a bad day. For decades a band of biblical scholars and archeologists have combed the sacred site and eventually managed to uncover the lost fragments belonging to the broken third tablet. Years have been spent quietly assembling the fragmented pieces and then interpreting the scripture. Curiously, as the lost scripture was slowly deciphered disagreement among the present scholars grew. Generally speaking, it was noted in the logs that there was increasing resistance to revealing the contents of the lost scripture as it was expected that not everyone would agree with the findings. At one point there was even a rumor that certain scholars secretly conspired in an unsuccessful attempt to "lose" the reassembled third tablet, but there has been no way to verify this story. On the other hand a more persistent rumor, one that had been more difficult to dismiss was the general consensus among the scholars that Moses may not have destroyed the third tablet accidentally. In the end it was decided to unveil the reassembled tablet in the most obscure way they could devise - a procedure which even today remains a tight mystery and partially explains why most of the population continues to remain completely ignorant to the existence of the third tablet. Never the less, the Internet is a wonderful thing and all things can eventually be uncovered. Without further adieu I give you the five missing Commandments: * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * 11. Thou shall not forget that I the Lord God loveth all my children equally in all the worlds of the Firmament that I created regardless of whether thou loveth or feareth them. 12. Thou shalt not forget that while thou and all thy brothers and sisters in the fulfillment of their duties may oweth their lives to their King or Queen, the Souls of all my Children belongeth to themselves. Therefore, it is forbidden for thou, nor any king or queen to barter for the Souls of all my children. 13. Thou shalt not forget that when thou wageth war, I the Lord God never taketh sides with any of my children thou disagreth with. Therefore, thou shall not wage any war and claim it is thus being done In My Name. 14. Thou shall not forget that my Spirit lives in the Souls of all my children regardless of whether thou loveth or feareth them. Thou shall not forget this before thou striketh them down for thou is striking one of my children down as well as thy own brother or sister. 15. Thou shall follow My Commandments as thou understandeh them by being an example for all thy brothers and sisters to observe and consider, but not by hindering thy brother and sister from the practice of My Commandments as they understand them and live them, for they follow My Commandments for thou to observe and consider as well. Therefore, thou shall seek and worship Me as thou perceiveth Me, not by how others commendeth thou to seek and worship me for I the Lord God exist unconditionally in all my Children equally, and as a just and merciful Father I play no favorites amongeth my children. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Oh, BTW, for five different interpretations of the "original" Ten Commandments please see: http://www.positiveatheism.org/crt/whichcom.pdf Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 11 11:44:37 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3BIiGPl003505; Mon, 11 Apr 2005 11:44:16 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3BIiEsB003477; Mon, 11 Apr 2005 11:44:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 11:44:14 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <9C9B02646C2290458C35331EEB19252201206371 rtpatl30.rtpatlanta.com> From: "Blanton, Terry [RTPXCHG]" To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: The Missing Five Commandments Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 14:41:51 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59133 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Cute. Ackshully, you'll find all the commandments in the Egyptian Book of the Dead. -----Original Message----- From: vortex-l-request eskimo.com [mailto:vortex-l-request@eskimo.com]On Behalf Of orionworks charter.net Sent: Monday, April 11, 2005 2:24 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Cc: orionworks charter.net Subject: OT: The Missing Five Commandments The recent conversation between the esteemed Mr. Malloy and Dr. Storms brought to my attention a little known fact that originally there were 15 commandments brought down from the mountain by Moses. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 11 12:14:44 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3BJEWPl021139; Mon, 11 Apr 2005 12:14:32 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3BJER8Y021109; Mon, 11 Apr 2005 12:14:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 12:14:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=iIYyuKknp5VlCZ+QCNxQs+oVDSfRTiY2sPRkJUS+i+lGedqG407xuEjq49003074RgNy6S5smFumrigcm9yawPAeR43YUD3hO68dOyqZ8cVoxeiupKx6rG3trKWLWWZE8lU/SSWhGOAoH17AjofS/rrnpJlKvLJTSxqajeOTCig= Message-ID: Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 12:14:21 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The Missing Five Commandments In-Reply-To: <9C9B02646C2290458C35331EEB19252201206371 rtpatl30.rtpatlanta.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 References: <9C9B02646C2290458C35331EEB19252201206371 rtpatl30.rtpatlanta.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j3BJEOPl021073 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59134 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: blanton, which one? On Apr 11, 2005 11:41 AM, Blanton, Terry [RTPXCHG] wrote: > Cute. > > Ackshully, you'll find all the commandments in the Egyptian Book of the > Dead. > > -----Original Message----- > From: vortex-l-request eskimo.com [mailto:vortex-l-request@eskimo.com]On > Behalf Of orionworks charter.net > Sent: Monday, April 11, 2005 2:24 PM > To: vortex-l eskimo.com > Cc: orionworks charter.net > Subject: OT: The Missing Five Commandments > > The recent conversation between the esteemed Mr. Malloy and Dr. Storms > brought to my attention a little known fact that originally there were 15 > commandments brought down from the mountain by Moses. > > -- "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 11 14:05:55 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3BL5dPl005713; Mon, 11 Apr 2005 14:05:44 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3BL5c3g005698; Mon, 11 Apr 2005 14:05:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 14:05:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050411162919.02c5df30 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 16:33:43 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: What if all cars ran on electricity . . . Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_8292296==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: <4Ed4fC.A.9YB.hauWCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59135 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --=====================_8292296==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Here are some interesting questions that come up from time to time here, with some short answers, followed by details. Are electric vehicles really more efficient than pure gasoline powered ones? Yes -- roughly twice as efficient. Are electric vehicles less polluting? Yes, but probably not much better or worse than hybrid gasoline electric vehicles. How much electricity would take to run the entire US transportation system? About 30% more than we now generate. How many additional power generators would it take? Very few, if cars are recharged mainly at night. I have been trying to get a handle on these issues. It is surprisingly difficult to get accurate numbers about big-picture questions such as this. When you look at data regarding conversion efficiency, waste heat, consumption over the entire fuel cycle from the oil well to vehicle propulsion, you find different estimates from diverse sources such as the EIA, Lawrence Livermore or industry publications. This is not because experts at these places are lying or careless, it is because the data is difficult to gather and not accurate, and because there are many different ways to analyze the problem. The data is inaccurate because nobody follows around every single U.S. automobile to find out how many miles it is driven and how much gas it burns. We have only overall estimates based on surveys, tests of new cars, odometers readings from used automobiles and so on. Estimates of efficiency vary by a large margin. NREL computes the total efficiency of automobile transportation from crude oil to vehicle propulsion as 11%. In 1990, they estimated internal combustion engine (ICE) efficiency at 15%, and vehicle powertrain efficiency at 85%. Overall ICE efficiency starting from gasoline is 13%. Other sources put ICE vehicle efficiency from gasoline to propulsion as high as 20%. Let us start with the Lawrence Livermore US Energy Flow Trends 2000: http://www.theenergyguy.com/USEnFlow00-quads.pdf It shows 25.7 quads of petroleum and NGPL going into transportation, 0.9 quads of other fuels and electricity also going into transportation, and 21.3 quads coming out as "rejected energy" (waste heat). That would be 20% efficiency. (That is, 20% going into vehicle propulsion.) I assume this includes all forms of transportation, not just automobiles. Trucks, railroad trains and airplanes are much more efficient than automobiles. When you subtract refinery and gasoline distribution losses, automobiles are roughly 10% efficient. NREL shows refinery and distribution takes 18% of the original crude oil and Pimentel puts it at 20%. The overhead for fossil fuel used in electric power generation is much lower, and for uranium it is even lower but I do not know how much it is. (This is overhead needed to prepare and ship the fuel itself only. It does not include the energy overhead needed to build electric power plants, and by the same token I doubt anyone tries to keep track of the amount of energy used to build automobiles and scrap them later on -- which is probably quite substantial.) To summarize, Lawrence Livermore estimates that 80% of energy used in transportation is goes to waste heat ("rejected energy"), whereas NREL estimates that 90% is lost to waste heat and overhead for automobiles only. Lawrence Livermore estimates that 70% of the energy used to generate electricity goes to waste heat, transmission and distribution losses, whereas NREL puts this number at 68%. In short, gasoline ICE cars use about 10% - 20% of the starting energy, and electric cars use about 30% of the starting energy, so they are considerably more efficient no matter whose numbers you use. Overall Carnot efficiency better, and other factors help as well. Electric motors and drive trains are much more efficient at low speeds, and they allow regenerative braking. Using "current technology" (circa 1990), NREL concluded that it took 9.5 units of crude oil to produce one unit of vehicle propulsion with ICE, whereas burning fossil fuel for conventional electric cars took only 5.1 units of fossil fuel to produce one unit of vehicle propulsion. In other words, 1990 electric cars were almost twice as efficient as gasoline powered cars. This advantage is largely been erased with hybrid electric vehicles. Most industry sources say they are roughly as efficient as pure electric cars looking at the entire fuel cycle. Electric vehicles would be far cheaper than hybrid or gasoline-only ones, because most of the fuel to generate electricity is either coal or uranium which are ~6 times cheaper than oil per joule of energy. And the U.S. has practically unlimited amounts of both, so there would be no shortage, no price spikes, and no imports. Pollution Hybrid electric vehicles produce very low levels of pollution. Measured per passenger-kilometer, it is roughly equivalent to an electric vehicle powered by an up-to-date fossil fuel electric power plant. CO2 contributions for pure electric vehicles might actually be higher than those for hybrid vehicles, because a great deal of US electricity comes from coal, which produces more CO2 than oil per unit of energy. However, pure electric vehicles are potentially much less polluting than hybrid ones because they can use electricity from uranium, hydroelectricity, or wind power. How much electricity would it take? You cannot convert all vehicles on electricity. Railroads have already been converted to electricity on some a high-traffic East Coast lines. Subways now carry more passengers than at any time in US history and they are already electric. Aircraft take a substantial amount of energy, and they can only be powered with kerosene. Let us look at automobiles only, using the conservative NREL numbers to get a handle on this. I do not know what fraction of the 26.6 quads used for transportation go to automobiles and trucks (gasoline ICE), but based on the amount of petroleum refined for aircraft fuel, and various other numbers which I shall pull out of a hat, my guess is that cars and trucks use up 83% of the petroleum used in transporatation, or 22 quads. Here is the hat I pulled that out of (mainly): http://www.eia.doe.gov/neic/infosheets/crudeproduction.htm Petroleum Products Yielded from One Barrel of Crude, 2000 Product Gallons Finished Motor Gasoline 19.69 Distillate Fuel Oil 9.70 Kero-Type Jet Fuel 3.99 Residual Fuel Oil 1.76 Still Gas 1.89 Petroleum Coke 2.14 Liquefied Refinery Gas 1.76 Asphalt and Road Oil 1.34 Naptha for Feedstocks 0.63 Other Oils for Feedstocks 0.50 Lubricants 0.46 Special Naphthas 0.13 Kerosene 0.17 Miscellaneous Products 0.17 Finished Aviation Gasoline 0.04 Waxes 0.04 Total 44.41 See also: http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/aer/pdf/pages/sec5_25.pdf Anyway, let us say it takes 22 quads, and let us be generous and say that ICE (including diesel trucks) are 20% efficient overall delivering 4.4 quads of useful vehicle propulsion. (The Lawrence Livermore graph shows 5.3 quads total "useful energy" so I am guessing 0.9 of those quads are for aircraft, railroads, subway trains and so on.) If we use electric vehicles with circa 1990 technology instead of pure ICE, we could get the same 4.4 quads from electricity with the expenditure of 15 quads of primary energy for electric power generation. In other words, we could increase the inputs of fossil fuel, nuclear power and so on, inputting 55 quads into the electric generation system instead of 40 quads, and we would output 16.7 quads of electricity instead of 12.3. We would increase electric power generation by about a third. That seems like a reasonable, doable increase to me. It would not cost huge sums of money. It would cause much less pollution than conventional ICE. It would, of course, free the U.S., Europe and Japan from dependence on other nations, eliminate the need to ship huge amounts of oil around the world, and bankrupt OPEC and Al Qaeda. If most automobiles were recharged at night, this would not require many new electric power plants. Existing electric power plants would consume more fuel. Hydroelectricity is already tapped out and it cannot be increased. In the near future, it seems unlikely to me that we could build many nuclear power plants. The main source of electric power that could be increased dramatically would be from coal in the near future, and wind power in 5 or 10 years. Wind is intermittent, but that should not matter if the main use of the new electricity is to recharge automobiles at night. If there are problems, power companies could equip many end-users with remote-control variable output power supplies that increase or decrease the power delivered to electric cars being recharged as the supply fluctuates. As we have discussed here, there is the problem of getting the wind power to population centers where it is needed. As a practical matter, we would have to burn more coal in places like Georgia that have no wind resources, but we might offset this by burning less coal in places such as the Dakotas and Texas, where wind could easily supply enough electricity for the additional burden from electric vehicles. By the way, the total amount of available wind at ground level in the world roughly 5,800 quads per year, or 15 times more energy than the entire world consumes. See: http://www.awea.org/faq/tutorial/wwt_potential.html I do not know the total amount of wind energy available high in the atmosphere with the "kite generators" we discussed the other day, but I am sure it greatly exceeds total energy demand for the entire world. I expect the cost of developing and implementing it such a system would probably be with an order of magnitude of the recent US Iraqi war (somewhere between $200 billion and $2 trillion). As you can see from this discussion, wind energy -- particularly high-altitude wind -- would not only supply all electricity for present uses, but it would easily supply enough energy for transportation -- except for things such as aircraft that cannot use electricity. Convenient electric cars needed I am assuming reasonably convenient electric cars could be developed. I think they could be. In fact I think they could have been developed back in 1990, mainly by using techniques such as swapping battery packs on highways, and making the battery packs public property like today's telephone poles or the LNG tanks you rent at the Home Depot. People think they would be inconvenienced by a 100 mile range, but as I have said in previous messages, I think most people would be much less inconvenienced than they realize, and most of the problem is caused by people imagining the worst and most inconvenient aspects of electric vehicles without realizing there would be counterbalancing advantages. If new types of lightweight rapid recharge batteries can be developed, such as the ones we have discussed here, and range can be extended to 200 miles, electric vehicles would be even more practical. If the cost of gasoline goes up to $5 per gallon they will be irresistible -- if only one major manufacture has enough sense to introduce them. Because of the reasons pointed out by Mike Carrell, in the near future it may not be possible to implement very rapid recharge stations that can recharge an automobile completely in 6 minutes (1/10 of an hour). However, recharge in an hour or so should be possible with rapid recharge batteries, and for this would suffice for many practical purposes. Cold fusion would have many advantages over wind energy, which are enumerated in chapter 2 of my book. The biggest advantage would be cost. High-altitude wind would be cheaper by far than any conventional source of energy, it would be safer, less polluting, and more abundant than any other. Even uranium cannot compete, because it does require mining and preparation, which causes pollution and has killed thousands of people over the last 60 years. However, cold fusion would be orders of magnitude cheaper, safer and less polluting than wind, and it would be millions of times more abundant. Let me check these numbers, polish this up, and I upload some of the details and original source tables and graphs, perhaps in the new document in Acrobat format. - Jed --=====================_8292296==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Here are some interesting questions that come up from time to time here, with some short answers, followed by details.

Are electric vehicles really more efficient than pure gasoline powered ones? Yes -- roughly twice as efficient.

Are electric vehicles less polluting? Yes, but probably not much better or worse than hybrid gasoline electric vehicles.

How much electricity would take to run the entire US transportation system? About 30% more than we now generate.

How many additional power generators would it take? Very few, if cars are recharged mainly at night.


I have been trying to get a handle on these issues. It is surprisingly difficult to get accurate numbers about big-picture questions such as this. When you look at data regarding conversion efficiency, waste heat, consumption over the entire fuel cycle from the oil well to vehicle propulsion, you find different estimates from diverse sources such as the EIA, Lawrence Livermore or industry publications. This is not because experts at these places are lying or careless, it is because the data is difficult to gather and not accurate, and because there are many different ways to analyze the problem. The data is inaccurate because nobody follows around every single U.S. automobile to find out how many miles it is driven and how much gas it burns. We have only overall estimates based on surveys, tests of new cars, odometers readings from used automobiles and so on. Estimates of efficiency vary by a large margin. NREL computes the total efficiency of automobile transportation from crude oil to vehicle propulsion as 11%. In 1990, they estimated internal combustion engine (ICE) efficiency at 15%, and vehicle powertrain efficiency at 85%. Overall ICE efficiency starting from gasoline is 13%. Other sources put ICE vehicle efficiency from gasoline to propulsion as high as 20%.

Let us start with the Lawrence Livermore US Energy Flow Trends 2000:

http://www.theenergyguy.com/USEnFlow00-quads.pdf

It shows 25.7 quads of petroleum and NGPL going into transportation, 0.9 quads of other fuels and electricity also going into transportation, and 21.3 quads coming out as "rejected energy" (waste heat).

That would be 20% efficiency. (That is, 20% going into vehicle propulsion.) I assume this includes all forms of transportation, not just automobiles. Trucks, railroad trains and airplanes are much more efficient than automobiles. When you subtract refinery and gasoline distribution losses, automobiles are roughly 10% efficient. NREL shows refinery and distribution takes 18% of the original crude oil and Pimentel puts it at 20%. The overhead for fossil fuel used in electric power generation is much lower, and for uranium it is even lower but I do not know how much it is. (This is overhead needed to prepare and ship the fuel itself only. It does not include the energy overhead needed to build electric power plants, and by the same token I doubt anyone tries to keep track of the amount of energy used to build automobiles and scrap them later on -- which is probably quite substantial.)

To summarize, Lawrence Livermore estimates that 80% of energy used in transportation is goes to waste heat ("rejected energy"), whereas NREL estimates that 90% is lost to waste heat and overhead for automobiles only.

Lawrence Livermore estimates that 70% of the energy used to generate electricity goes to waste heat, transmission and distribution losses, whereas NREL puts this number at 68%.

In short, gasoline ICE cars use about 10% - 20% of the starting energy, and electric cars use about 30% of the starting energy, so they are considerably more efficient no matter whose numbers you use. Overall Carnot efficiency better, and other factors help as well. Electric motors and drive trains are much more efficient at low speeds, and they allow regenerative braking. Using "current technology" (circa 1990), NREL concluded that it took 9.5 units of crude oil to produce one unit of vehicle propulsion with ICE, whereas burning fossil fuel for conventional electric cars took only 5.1 units of fossil fuel to produce one unit of vehicle propulsion. In other words, 1990 electric cars were almost twice as efficient as gasoline powered cars. This advantage is largely been erased with hybrid electric vehicles. Most industry sources say they are roughly as efficient as pure electric cars looking at the entire fuel cycle.

Electric vehicles would be far cheaper than hybrid or gasoline-only ones, because most of the fuel to generate electricity is either coal or uranium which are ~6 times cheaper than oil per joule of energy. And the U.S. has practically unlimited amounts of both, so there would be no shortage, no price spikes, and no imports.

Pollution

Hybrid electric vehicles produce very low levels of pollution. Measured per passenger-kilometer, it is roughly equivalent to an electric vehicle powered by an up-to-date fossil fuel electric power plant. CO2 contributions for pure electric vehicles might actually be higher than those for hybrid vehicles, because a great deal of US electricity comes from coal, which produces more CO2 than oil per unit of energy. However, pure electric vehicles are potentially much less polluting than hybrid ones because they can use electricity from uranium, hydroelectricity, or wind power.

How much electricity would it take?

You cannot convert all vehicles on electricity. Railroads have already been converted to electricity on some a high-traffic East Coast lines. Subways now carry more passengers than at any time in US history and they are already electric. Aircraft take a substantial amount of energy, and they can only be powered with kerosene. Let us look at automobiles only, using the conservative NREL numbers to get a handle on this. I do not know what fraction of the 26.6 quads used for transportation go to automobiles and trucks (gasoline ICE), but based on the amount of petroleum refined for aircraft fuel, and various other numbers which I shall pull out of a hat, my guess is that cars and trucks use up 83% of the petroleum used in transporatation, or 22 quads. Here is the hat I pulled that out of (mainly):

http://www.eia.doe.gov/neic/infosheets/crudeproduction.htm

Petroleum Products Yielded from One Barrel of Crude, 2000

Product
        
Gallons
Finished Motor Gasoline 19.69
Distillate Fuel Oil 9.70
Kero-Type Jet Fuel 3.99
Residual Fuel Oil 1.76
Still Gas 1.89
Petroleum Coke 2.14
Liquefied Refinery Gas 1.76
Asphalt and Road Oil 1.34
Naptha for Feedstocks 0.63
Other Oils for Feedstocks        0.50
Lubricants      0.46
Special Naphthas         0.13
Kerosene        0.17
Miscellaneous Products  0.17
Finished Aviation Gasoline      0.04
Waxes   0.04
        
Total   44.41

See also: http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/aer/pdf/pages/sec5_25.pdf

Anyway, let us say it takes 22 quads, and let us be generous and say that ICE (including diesel trucks) are 20% efficient overall delivering 4.4 quads of useful vehicle propulsion. (The Lawrence Livermore graph shows 5.3 quads total "useful energy" so I am guessing 0.9 of those quads are for aircraft, railroads, subway trains and so on.) If we use electric vehicles with circa 1990 technology instead of pure ICE, we could get the same 4.4 quads from electricity with the expenditure of 15 quads of primary energy for electric power generation. In other words, we could increase the inputs of fossil fuel, nuclear power and so on, inputting 55 quads into the electric generation system instead of 40 quads, and we would output 16.7 quads of electricity instead of 12.3. We would increase electric power generation by about a third. That seems like a reasonable, doable increase to me. It would not cost huge sums of money. It would cause much less pollution than conventional ICE. It would, of course, free the U.S., Europe and Japan from dependence on other nations, eliminate the need to ship huge amounts of oil around the world, and bankrupt OPEC and Al Qaeda.

If most automobiles were recharged at night, this would not require many new electric power plants. Existing electric power plants would consume more fuel. Hydroelectricity is already tapped out and it cannot be increased. In the near future, it seems unlikely to me that we could build many nuclear power plants. The main source of electric power that could be increased dramatically would be from coal in the near future, and wind power in 5 or 10 years. Wind is intermittent, but that should not matter if the main use of the new electricity is to recharge automobiles at night. If there are problems, power companies could equip many end-users with remote-control variable output power supplies that increase or decrease the power delivered to electric cars being recharged as the supply fluctuates.

As we have discussed here, there is the problem of getting the wind power to population centers where it is needed. As a practical matter, we would have to burn more coal in places like Georgia that have no wind resources, but we might offset this by burning less coal in places such as the Dakotas and Texas, where wind could easily supply enough electricity for the additional burden from electric vehicles.

By the way, the total amount of available wind at ground level in the world roughly 5,800 quads per year, or 15 times more energy than the entire world consumes. See:

http://www.awea.org/faq/tutorial/wwt_potential.html

I do not know the total amount of wind energy available high in the atmosphere with the "kite generators" we discussed the other day, but I am sure it greatly exceeds total energy demand for the entire world. I expect the cost of developing and implementing it such a system would probably be with an order of magnitude of the recent US Iraqi war (somewhere between $200 billion and $2 trillion).

As you can see from this discussion, wind energy -- particularly high-altitude wind -- would not only supply all electricity for present uses, but it would easily supply enough energy for transportation -- except for things such as aircraft that cannot use electricity.

Convenient electric cars needed

I am assuming reasonably convenient electric cars could be developed. I think they could be. In fact I think they could have been developed back in 1990, mainly by using techniques such as swapping battery packs on highways, and making the battery packs public property like today's telephone poles or the LNG tanks you rent at the Home Depot. People think they would be inconvenienced by a 100 mile range, but as I have said in previous messages, I think most people would be much less inconvenienced than they realize, and most of the problem is caused by people imagining the worst and most inconvenient aspects of electric vehicles without realizing there would be counterbalancing advantages. If new types of lightweight rapid recharge batteries can be developed, such as the ones we have discussed here, and range can be extended to 200 miles, electric vehicles would be even more practical. If the cost of gasoline goes up to $5 per gallon they will be irresistible -- if only one major manufacture has enough sense to introduce them.

Because of the reasons pointed out by Mike Carrell, in the near future it may not be possible to implement very rapid recharge stations that can recharge an automobile completely in 6 minutes (1/10 of an hour). However, recharge in an hour or so should be possible with rapid recharge batteries, and for this would suffice for many practical purposes.

Cold fusion would have many advantages over wind energy, which are enumerated in chapter 2 of my book. The biggest advantage would be cost. High-altitude wind would be cheaper by far than any conventional source of energy, it would be safer, less polluting, and more abundant than any other. Even uranium cannot compete, because it does require mining and preparation, which causes pollution and has killed thousands of people over the last 60 years. However, cold fusion would be orders of magnitude cheaper, safer and less polluting than wind, and it would be millions of times more abundant.


Let me check these numbers, polish this up, and I upload some of the details and original source tables and graphs, perhaps in the new document in Acrobat format.

- Jed
 --=====================_8292296==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 11 14:32:46 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3BLWEPl021377; Mon, 11 Apr 2005 14:32:14 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3BLWBXv021319; Mon, 11 Apr 2005 14:32:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 14:32:11 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050411171735.02c829b8 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 17:27:48 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: What if all cars ran on electricity . . . hybrid with large battery packs best In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050411162919.02c5df30 pop.mindspring.com> References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050411162919.02c5df30 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_9876734==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59136 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_9876734==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I wrote: >Convenient electric cars needed > >I am assuming reasonably convenient electric cars could be developed. I >think they could be. In fact I think they could have been developed back >in 1990, mainly by using techniques such as swapping battery packs on >highways . . . I meant to add that I agree with the people here, and with the EPRI study advocating the use of hybrid automobiles with large battery packs. These could be manufactured in the near future and they would shift a large portion of transportation energy from gasoline to the electric power grid. If I were the Bush administration, and I had their conservative, big business attitude, I would immediately implement a Manhattan Project style crash program to put millions of big-battery-pack hybrid vehicles on the road, and to build another 100 US nuclear plants. The nuclear plants would be enough to recharge nearly all the cars and trucks on the road, and also displace much of the coal now burned. This could be done within 10 years and it would greatly reduce or even eliminate the need to import oil. It would be a tremendous boon to US heavy industry such as GM and the power companies. It would also clean up the environment and reduce global warming -- but I doubt the Bush administration cares about these goals. If I were me, and I could direct U.S. energy policy myself without worrying about who contributed to the Bush campaign, I would make this program even bigger and more radical. I would impose a tax on gasoline immediately, raising the price to $5 per gallon. I would impose a stiff toll on all urban roads and highways, such as the toll in London, England, and I would make all public transportation free. I would forget about the 100 nuclear plants and build the equivalent in ground-based wind farms instead. This would save vast amounts of money compared to nuclear fission. I would use at least $100 billion of the wind-windfall to research speculative, futuristic solutions such as high-altitude wind resources, space elevators, advanced fission reactors and of course cold fusion. If any of these approaches began to pan out I would immediately shift the focus of the program to the new approach. - Jed --=====================_9876734==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" I wrote:

Convenient electric cars needed

I am assuming reasonably convenient electric cars could be developed. I think they could be. In fact I think they could have been developed back in 1990, mainly by using techniques such as swapping battery packs on highways . . .

I meant to add that I agree with the people here, and with the EPRI study advocating the use of hybrid automobiles with large battery packs. These could be manufactured in the near future and they would shift a large portion of transportation energy from gasoline to the electric power grid.

If I were the Bush administration, and I had their conservative, big business attitude, I would immediately implement a Manhattan Project style crash program to put millions of big-battery-pack hybrid vehicles on the road, and to build another 100 US nuclear plants. The nuclear plants would be enough to recharge nearly all the cars and trucks on the road, and also displace much of the coal now burned. This could be done within 10 years and it would greatly reduce or even eliminate the need to import oil. It would be a tremendous boon to US heavy industry such as GM and the power companies. It would also clean up the environment and reduce global warming -- but I doubt the Bush administration cares about these goals.

If I were me, and I could direct U.S. energy policy myself without worrying about who contributed to the Bush campaign, I would make this program even bigger and more radical. I would impose a tax on gasoline immediately, raising the price to $5 per gallon. I would impose a stiff toll on all urban roads and highways, such as the toll in London, England, and I would make all public transportation free. I would forget about the 100 nuclear plants and build the equivalent in ground-based wind farms instead. This would save vast amounts of money compared to nuclear fission. I would use at least $100 billion of the wind-windfall to research speculative, futuristic solutions such as high-altitude wind resources, space elevators, advanced fission reactors and of course cold fusion. If any of these approaches began to pan out I would immediately shift the focus of the program to the new approach.

- Jed
 --=====================_9876734==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 11 14:40:36 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3BLeBPl028868; Mon, 11 Apr 2005 14:40:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3BLe81m028851; Mon, 11 Apr 2005 14:40:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 14:40:08 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: What if all cars ran on electricity . . . Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 17:42:07 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050411162919.02c5df30 pop.mindspring.com> Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: <7OdcB.A.sCH.36uWCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59137 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Jed. Thanks. This kind of analysis is very difficult. You write: >If most automobiles were recharged at night, >this would not require many new electric power plants. This has always bothered me about residential electricity sales. At least where I live, we are charged the same premium rate ( 16 cents/KWH ) regardless of the time of day. There is no off-peak hour for my residential service. Much as I hate to remind everyone of Enron, Ken Lay was pushing the idea of a new electric grid which would be more amenable to both metering and distributed generation. It would be nice if someone can pick up the ball here, unless the well has been so badly poisoned by Mr Lay that it is futile to push further. K. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 11 15:36:17 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3BMZgjZ017884; Mon, 11 Apr 2005 15:35:43 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3BMZdtp017848; Mon, 11 Apr 2005 15:35:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 15:35:39 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4356352.1113258117107.JavaMail.root wamui04.slb.atl.earthlink.net> Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 18:21:56 -0400 (GMT-04:00) From: Jed Rothwell Reply-To: Jed Rothwell To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: What if all cars ran on electricity . . . Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Earthlink Zoo Mail 1.0 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59138 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Keith Nagel wrote: > Thanks. This kind of analysis is very difficult. Yeah, and I hope I got it right! I would appreciate it if people could proofread and check original sources. I will upload the NREL graphs. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 11 17:06:59 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3C06iXD031963; Mon, 11 Apr 2005 17:06:45 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3C06gXL031949; Mon, 11 Apr 2005 17:06:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 17:06:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 16:08:23 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: RE: The Missing Five Commandments Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59139 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 2:41 PM 4/11/5, Blanton, Terry [RTPXCHG] wrote: >Cute. > >Ackshully, you'll find all the commandments in the Egyptian Book of the >Dead. Do you know where? Are they together? Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 11 18:12:48 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3C1CaKI031234; Mon, 11 Apr 2005 18:12:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3C1CWOR031202; Mon, 11 Apr 2005 18:12:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 18:12:32 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <425B21D5.7020902 bellsouth.net> Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 21:18:13 -0400 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040804 Netscape/7.2 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The Missing Five Commandments References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------070505080807060107020009" Resent-Message-ID: <35ywMB.A.enH.ACyWCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59140 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------070505080807060107020009 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Only five are together. Spell 125. I'm sorry. Some people do not see things the way I do. I should be silent. My ideas damage faith. Horace Heffner wrote: >At 2:41 PM 4/11/5, Blanton, Terry [RTPXCHG] wrote: > > >>Cute. >> >>Ackshully, you'll find all the commandments in the Egyptian Book of the >>Dead. >> >> > > >Do you know where? Are they together? > >Regards, > >Horace Heffner > > > > > --------------070505080807060107020009 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Only five are together.  Spell 125.

I'm sorry.  Some people do not see things the way I do.  I should be silent.  My ideas damage faith.

Horace Heffner wrote: 
At 2:41 PM 4/11/5, Blanton, Terry [RTPXCHG] wrote:
  
Cute.

Ackshully, you'll find all the commandments in the Egyptian Book of the
Dead.
    


Do you know where?  Are they together?

Regards,

Horace Heffner
--------------070505080807060107020009-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 11 19:02:26 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3C21vKI014063; Mon, 11 Apr 2005 19:01:58 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3C21rwJ014033; Mon, 11 Apr 2005 19:01:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 19:01:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <410-2200542122120110 ix.netcom.com> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: aki ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.1.47.0 (Windows) From: "Akira Kawasaki" To: "vortex-l" Subject: CF Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 19:01:20 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: c4cc7f5f697e8746f66dc3a06d5924d8d2edc03d9ad76cff38ea2b1296f2ebb4548b785378294e88350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 216.175.110.24 Resent-Message-ID: <38w1eB.A.LbD.PwyWCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59141 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII April 11, 2005 Vortex, Has the discussion group that poplulated Vortex been moved? I am not too much into, or interested in, biblical topics mixed into CF. -ak- ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
April 11, 2005
 
Vortex,
 
Has the discussion group that poplulated Vortex been moved? I am not too much into, or interested in, biblical topics mixed into CF.
 
-ak-

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 11 20:41:02 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3C3ebKI019396; Mon, 11 Apr 2005 20:40:37 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3C3eXpd019367; Mon, 11 Apr 2005 20:40:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 20:40:33 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000c01c53f11$5bf405c0$0100007f xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: CF Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 22:39:46 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0008_01C53EE7.5CF2A320"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-99.5 required=4.0 tests=HTML_20_30,HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: <_cj_sC.A.YuE.vM0WCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59142 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C53EE7.5CF2A320 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0009_01C53EE7.5CF429C0" ------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C53EE7.5CF429C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankAkira,, Vorts never move, a plaeasnt diversion for science merely = stimulates the group. For example. Next generation windmills. A tower the height proposed for wind electric power generation by the = Australians would be overkill. Harnessing the vortices shed by a tower = in the shape of a bowling pin may produce as much electric energy as a = tower 5 times as high. Consider that vortices produce heat that can be = detected by an infrared sensor similar to the Eastec wedge flow meter or = a flock of migrating geese for that matter. An optimum shape could be = configured that captures wind energy efficently. A variation could be = applicable to capturing ocean tidal and/or wave energy. Way back when.. Schauberger proposed such a wind generator, there has = been at least some advance in technology applicable to the original = design. With the money NASA spends on wind tunnel tests, radical shapes = for capturing the energy of wind for conversion to electric power is = within reach. Would someone like to take on the task? Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C53EE7.5CF429C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Akira,,
 
Vorts never move, <grin> a plaeasnt diversion for science = merely=20 stimulates the group.
 
For example.
 Next generation windmills.
 
A tower the height proposed for wind electric power generation by = the=20 Australians would be overkill. Harnessing the vortices shed by a tower = in the=20 shape of a bowling pin may produce as much electric energy as a tower 5 = times as=20 high. Consider that vortices produce heat that can be detected by an = infrared=20 sensor similar to the Eastec wedge flow meter or a flock of migrating = geese for=20 that matter. An optimum shape could be configured that  captures = wind=20 energy efficently. A variation could be applicable to capturing ocean = tidal=20 and/or wave energy.
Way back when.. Schauberger proposed such a wind generator, there = has been=20 at least some advance in technology applicable to the original design. = With the=20 money NASA spends on wind tunnel tests, radical shapes for capturing the = energy=20 of wind for conversion to electric power is within reach.
 
Would someone like to take on the task?
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C53EE7.5CF429C0-- ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C53EE7.5CF2A320 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000701c53f11$45bf8360$0100007f xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C53EE7.5CF2A320-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 11 21:04:16 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3C446KI029970; Mon, 11 Apr 2005 21:04:06 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3C442oJ029949; Mon, 11 Apr 2005 21:04:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 21:04:02 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: CF Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 14:03:50 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <000c01c53f11$5bf405c0$0100007f xptower> In-Reply-To: <000c01c53f11$5bf405c0$0100007f xptower> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j3C43vKI029871 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59143 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In reply to RC Macaulay's message of Mon, 11 Apr 2005 22:39:46 -0500: Hi, [snip] >For example. > Next generation windmills. > >A tower the height proposed for wind electric power generation by the Australians would be overkill. Which tower would that be? The only tower I'm aware of was to tap solar power, not wind energy. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 11 23:15:37 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3C6FOXF020292; Mon, 11 Apr 2005 23:15:25 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3C6FL8n020269; Mon, 11 Apr 2005 23:15:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 23:15:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=I9Z1MP/CIZzyRXTfYx0w0oR1A80IBGk7jQlR67ONjF889WGciYcuZhaw1zwtHQe5xJwKOg4gFkJHNKoveRInAj7Fcw9PUM2Y28V4HC5bPxCWwMxWJcBVhbzNGmWKxkOF0XdOYWuG0Kw/W+CoQb4mqH9p6pr0SWqFWp3KeFuAF38= Message-ID: Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 23:15:18 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The Missing Five Commandments In-Reply-To: <425B21D5.7020902 bellsouth.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 References: <425B21D5.7020902 bellsouth.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j3C6FHXF020239 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59144 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: dah, its the 125th chapter (not spell.... ) of the papyrus of ani. in partcular the questions asked of the recently deseaced during the weighing of the heart. its the five not jewish ones, ie, killing, stealing, fucking the neighbors wife, fucking the neighbors goat, that kind of thing. On Apr 11, 2005 6:18 PM, Terry Blanton wrote: > Only five are together. Spell 125. > > I'm sorry. Some people do not see things the way I do. I should be silent. > My ideas damage faith. > > > Horace Heffner wrote: > At 2:41 PM 4/11/5, Blanton, Terry [RTPXCHG] wrote: > Cute. Ackshully, you'll find all the commandments in the Egyptian Book of > the Dead. > Do you know where? Are they together? Regards, Horace Heffner > -- "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 12 00:43:48 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3C7hRHV016708; Tue, 12 Apr 2005 00:43:28 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3C7hQGE016698; Tue, 12 Apr 2005 00:43:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 00:43:26 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050412084416.0068a138 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 08:44:16 +0000 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: ...water into wine... Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j3C7hIHV016666 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59145 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: When I followed up Jones's suggestion that the binding energy of the water is 498 calories....... =============================================================== http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/thermo/phase.html#c5 If the heat of vaporization of water at 100°C is 539 cal., then subtracting the 41 calorie work component suggests that the actual binding energy of the water molecules at 100°C is 539 - 41 = 498 calories. =============================================================== .......it struck me that since this value is so close to 5 times the number of calories required to raise the temperature from 0 to 100 degrees C, someone would have noticed and made the necessary connection to the possibility of volume and area dimensionality. I suppose 5 is not a particularly suggestive ratio - unlike 3 say which immediately suggests Cartesian dimensions - and a difference of 0.4 per cent is not that small. And in view of the complete failure of anyone to spot the weird water power laws given on Chaplin's website suggests that people just don't think about such things with sufficient curiosity and persistence to arrive at the correct conclusion. Musing on the dimensionality and binding energy fit I remembered a rather better known case of a weird coincidental conjunction [an appropriate word because of its astronomical other world overtones ;-) ], namely, the proximity of the velocity of light to a value of 3. Google calculator gives the speed of light as 299 792 458 m/s which is only 0.07% different from 300 000 000 m/s. Now some might be thinking. "Grimer has really lost it this time. Doesn't he realise that if light was expressed in different units, miles per second say, this coincidence would completely disappear." Quite so - which suggests that the key lies in the units that the speed of light is expressed - i.e. the key lies in the way that the metric system was set up. But some might reply. "The connection between the metric measurement of length and the second is completely arbitrary. You have nothing more than a coincidence." Mmmm..... but there *is* a subtle connection between the metric measurement of length and the second. And this connection conjoins light and water - which must explain how water is able to store light in the form of positive and negative strain energy. =============================================== The original definition of the gram was the mass of 1 cm³ of water at its maximum density (at 4 °C). This idea was carried over into the SI system so that the kilogram is the mass of 1000 cm³ of water, and this volume is defined as the liter, so that 1 liter of water has a mass of 1 kilogram =============================================== The cubic centimetre deals with the length part - but what's all this with the gram? What on earth do grams have to do with seconds? Well, mass is a measure of inertia. And both Ing.Saviour and I have independently shown that the dimensions of mass are the reciprocal of velocity, i.e. time/length. Go to his website and look up the back posts if you want a blow by blow account. It can be concluded therefor that the proximity of c to 3.10^n is not simply a coincidence, but a clue to an intimate relationship between light and water. Graneau has recognised this but has restricted his vision to sunlight, i.e. visible light. Vortex's resident guru, Horace, has outflanked this suggestion by recognising that other electromagnetic radiations, such as microwaves, might be more convenient. I trust that other Vorts will be able to contribute to these developing concepts as constructively as Jones, Horace and Richard. Cheers, Frank Grimer ======================================= dixitque Deus fiat lux et facta est lux ======================================= From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 12 01:30:59 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3C8UUdj031156; Tue, 12 Apr 2005 01:30:30 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3C8UL2W031075; Tue, 12 Apr 2005 01:30:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 01:30:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 00:31:41 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: The Missing Five Commandments Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59146 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:15 PM 4/11/5, leaking pen wrote: >dah, its the 125th chapter (not spell.... ) of the papyrus of ani. OK, I see. Thanks! Ignoring the hail to this and that, in the negative confession, there are essentially 43 commandment equivalences implied. Slightly rephrasing, THALL SHALT NOT: 1. create inequity, 2. rob with violence, 3. make any to suffer pain, 4. rob, 5. murder, 6. defraud offerings, 7. do harm, 8. rob God, 9. tell lies, 10. snatch away food, 11. work affliction, 12. transgress, 13. slaughter the cattle that are set apart for the gods, 14. do no evil, 15. lay waste the ploughed lands, 16. be an eavesdropper, 17. set your lips in motion against any man, 18. be angry without a cause, 19. commit adultery with the wife of any man, 20. not pollute thy self, 21. cause terror, 22. do that which is abominable, 23. utter fiery words, 24. stop thy ears aginst Right and Truth, 25. stir up strife, 26. cause any to weep, 27. lust, commit fornication, nor do any other abominable thing, 28. not avenge thyself, 29. work grief, 30. act insolently, 31. judge hastily, 32. transgress, nor vexed, nor angered God, 33. multiply thy speech overmuch, 34. do no harm nor evil, 35. work treason, 36. befoul the water, 37. speek scornfully, 38. curse God, 39. behave with arrogance, 40. be overweeningly proud, 41. magnify thy condition beyond what is fitting, 42. slight the god in thy town. Wow. They really had some things together in 1500-1400 BC. This list is humbling. I knew I was a sinner, but I didn't realize how much a sinner I really am. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 12 01:36:19 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3C8a4dj000497; Tue, 12 Apr 2005 01:36:04 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3C8a2Wm000488; Tue, 12 Apr 2005 01:36:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 01:36:02 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 00:37:48 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: The Missing Five Commandments Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59147 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: That was the Nebseni Papyrus version. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 12 07:30:39 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3CEUK5N004030; Tue, 12 Apr 2005 07:30:20 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3CEUFaF003976; Tue, 12 Apr 2005 07:30:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 07:30:15 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <3rr3lu$pb7l1q mxip08a.cluster1.charter.net> X-Ironport-AV: i="3.92,96,1112587200"; d="scan'208"; a="850646074:sNHT706861256" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.12 (webedge20-101-197-20030912) From: To: Subject: Re: The Missing Five Commandments Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 14:29:56 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59148 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Horace, ... > Wow. They really had some things together in 1500-1400 > BC. This list is humbling. I knew I was a sinner, but > I didn't realize how much a sinner I really am. > > Regards, > > Horace Heffner Rest assured that you are in good company. ;-) Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 12 07:47:00 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3CEkK5N013451; Tue, 12 Apr 2005 07:46:21 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3CEkFd8013399; Tue, 12 Apr 2005 07:46:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 07:46:15 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050412102115.02c50c60 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 10:45:50 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: RE: What if all cars ran on electricity . . . In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050411162919.02c5df30 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_3027140==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: <-lnTPD.A.JRD.189WCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59149 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_3027140==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Keith Nagel wrote: >This has always bothered me about residential electricity sales. >At least where I live, we are charged the same premium rate >( 16 cents/KWH ) regardless of the time of day. There is no >off-peak hour for my residential service. This calls for expensive and sophisticated meters. The scheme I described before would require Internet connected power meters: ". . . power companies could equip many end-users with remote-control variable output power supplies that increase or decrease the power delivered to electric cars being recharged as the supply fluctuates." Internet connected power meters and gigantic kites that stay in one position in the sky are examples of new technology made possible by computers. Mark Mills claim that computers increase the demand for power, but I believe that overall they have vastly decreased it, by improving efficiency. - Jed --=====================_3027140==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Keith Nagel wrote:

This has always bothered me about residential electricity sales.
At least where I live, we are charged the same premium rate
( 16 cents/KWH ) regardless of the time of day. There is no
off-peak hour for my residential service.

This calls for expensive and sophisticated meters.

The scheme I described before would require Internet connected power meters: ". . . power companies could equip many end-users with remote-control variable output power supplies that increase or decrease the power delivered to electric cars being recharged as the supply fluctuates."

Internet connected power meters and gigantic kites that stay in one position in the sky are examples of new technology made possible by computers. Mark Mills claim that computers increase the demand for power, but I believe that overall they have vastly decreased it, by improving efficiency.

- Jed
 --=====================_3027140==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 12 07:48:33 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3CEmJ5N014440; Tue, 12 Apr 2005 07:48:19 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3CEmE6C014403; Tue, 12 Apr 2005 07:48:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 07:48:14 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.1.2.0.0.20050412103328.021e0500 pop.theworld.com> X-Sender: mica pop.theworld.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.2.0 Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 10:35:36 -0400 To: aki ix.netcom.com, "vortex-l" From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: CF In-Reply-To: <410-2200542122120110 ix.netcom.com> References: <410-2200542122120110 ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59150 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 10:01 PM 4/11/2005, Akira Kawasaki wrote: >April 11, 2005 > >Vortex, > >Has the discussion group that poplulated Vortex been moved? I am not too >much into, or interested in, biblical topics mixed into CF. > >-ak- The 2005 Cold Fusion Colloquium " Cold Fusion and other Clean Energy Investigations from the Edge of the Envelope" with Special Tribute to Dr. Eugene Mallove, Cold Fusioneer, Investigator and MIT Graduate General Topics Science and Engineering Discussions of Cold Fusion Material Science, Review of Present literature concerning Cold Fusion Theoretical Understandings of Cold Fusion Cold Fusion Device Engineering Colloquium Schedule: Saturday, 5/21/05, 9 AM to 4 PM Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Cambridge, MA Colloquium - More information, program, pre-registration: http://world.std.com/~mica/colloq.html Colloquium Announcement http://world.std.com/~mica/cft.html From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 12 07:59:39 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3CExI5N021410; Tue, 12 Apr 2005 07:59:18 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3CEwofw021024; Tue, 12 Apr 2005 07:58:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 07:58:50 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050412104448.02c59c90 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 10:54:57 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: More thoughts about kite-generators Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_3783390==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59151 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_3783390==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I do not think those gigantic kites would require ultra-strong tethers. They would not pull on the tether much. Most of the energy of the wind is dissipated either in lifting the kite or turning the electric generators. The kites would work like autogyros. (See: http://www.jefflewis.net/autogyros.html) The tether has to overcome drag. If a high-altitude balloon were tethered to the earth, and it had on-board wind turbines, I think it would require a very strong and heavy tether. A balloon or airship has enormous drag. With the kite, drag is low. In other words, the tether supplies as much force as the motor in the autogyro, and if the wind produces much more lift than the kite needs to stay in place at a fixed altitude, the extra energy is converted to electricity and sent down to the ground. When the wind drops off too much and the kite begins to fall, power is sent back up to the kite to turn the rotors and keep it up. The New Scientist recently described a scheme to use gigantic kites to pull freight ships, to augment the diesel engines. Look up SkySails for more information. 19th-century freight ships carried sails long after they also had onboard steam engines. Some people nowadays imagine this was foolish and redundant, but actually it was economical. Sails and slow steam engines together worked well. Also, the early marine steam engines were not reliable. If the engine, paddle wheel or the propeller shaft broke in the middle of the ocean they needed the sails to get back home. Paddle wheels were too fragile for ocean-going ships. They were often damaged in storms. - Jed --=====================_3783390==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" I do not think those gigantic kites would require ultra-strong tethers. They would not pull on the tether much. Most of the energy of the wind is dissipated either in lifting the kite or turning the electric generators. The kites would work like autogyros. (See: http://www.jefflewis.net/autogyros.html)

The tether has to overcome drag. If a high-altitude balloon were tethered to the earth, and it had on-board wind turbines, I think it would require a very strong and heavy tether. A balloon or airship has enormous drag. With the kite, drag is low. In other words, the tether supplies as much force as the motor in the autogyro, and if the wind produces much more lift than the kite needs to stay in place at a fixed altitude, the extra energy is converted to electricity and sent down to the ground. When the wind drops off too much and the kite begins to fall, power is sent back up to the kite to turn the rotors and keep it up.

The New Scientist recently described a scheme to use gigantic kites to pull freight ships, to augment the diesel engines. Look up SkySails for more information. 19th-century freight ships carried sails long after they also had onboard steam engines. Some people nowadays imagine this was foolish and redundant, but actually it was economical. Sails and slow steam engines together worked well. Also, the early marine steam engines were not reliable. If the engine, paddle wheel or the propeller shaft broke in the middle of the ocean they needed the sails to get back home. Paddle wheels were too fragile for ocean-going ships. They were often damaged in storms.

- Jed
 --=====================_3783390==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 12 08:06:56 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3CF6V5N027013; Tue, 12 Apr 2005 08:06:32 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3CF6QPM026972; Tue, 12 Apr 2005 08:06:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 08:06:26 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20050412150613.88537.qmail web81104.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 08:06:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Jones Beene Subject: RE: What if all cars ran on electricity . . . To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050412102115.02c50c60 pop.mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <98EJHC.A.KlG.wP-WCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59152 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Keith wrote: > >At least where I live, we are charged the same premium rate( 16 cents/KWH ) regardless of the time of day. There is no off-peak hour for my residential service. > This calls for expensive and sophisticated meters. Not necessarily, in the near furure. I think this metering capability could and will be done **very cheaply** (less than $25 capital cost) and without replacing the existing meter. One would need only to provide a tiny clamp-on current probe to one side of the existing meter, BUT this probe would be designed to have enhanced-RFID capability. When the meter-reader comes around each month, the enhanced-RFID wireless system reports the off-peak usage deduction- or alternatively the whole reading is completed, dispensing with the cost of a human reader, using cell phone transmitter technology. Once desingned and in mass-production this part is cheap and now in prototype stage. Some computer-on-a-chip enhanced RFID-units are said to have a cost of only a few dollars (presumably if you buy a million of them). Think of it as a single-purpose, miniature cell phone without baterries, glitz, and all the bells-and-whistles. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 12 08:16:41 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3CFGG5N032586; Tue, 12 Apr 2005 08:16:20 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3CFGBSc032554; Tue, 12 Apr 2005 08:16:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 08:16:11 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20050412151601.91594.qmail web81104.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 08:16:01 -0700 (PDT) From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: More thoughts about kite-generators To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050412104448.02c59c90 pop.mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59153 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- Jed Rothwell wrote: > I do not think those gigantic kites would require ultra-strong tethers. They would not pull on the tether much. This could not be correct, logically. IF you were right and the kite "would not pull on the tether much" then you don't need a tehter at all!! Simply divert some of the energy of the windmill into a propeller giving forward thrust, equal to the "pull" of the tether (this is easy to figure out), and convert the rest of the wind energy to microwaves and beam that energy to diode converters on the ground - similar to the way that has been suggested for sending solar-from-satellites down to earth. Logic dictates that the windmill would need extremely strong tethers, equal to the strain of the energy produced - and that is the present drawback. Jones Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 12 08:26:17 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3CFPb5N004737; Tue, 12 Apr 2005 08:25:38 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3CFPHvu004640; Tue, 12 Apr 2005 08:25:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 08:25:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.1.2.0.0.20050412111610.023d3f38 pop.theworld.com> X-Sender: mica pop.theworld.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.2.0 Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 11:21:02 -0400 To: From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Survey questions from Dr. Peter Gluck In-Reply-To: <001d01c53caa$d6cf1690$cb41ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> References: <001d01c53caa$d6cf1690$cb41ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <2hcGLD.A.OIB.bh-WCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59154 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:21 PM 4/8/2005, Mike Carrell wrote: >Vorts, > >Peter Gluck is a veteran CF supporter who lives in Romania. He asked me to >forward the questions below for comment on vortex. > >Mike Carrell >---------------------------------- >Dear Friends, > >This was once a group dedicated to >Cold Fusion and perhaps it still is. >Therefore I am trying to ressurect this >tradition. >I am writing a paper re: >"CF- a problem that must be solved" >and I need your help. >Please have the very kindness to answer >the following 4 short questions: >I have already asked a colleague whose >opinion I highly respect and have received >such good and stimulating answers that > I have decided to make a survey- and to >try a synthesis of this survey- to >understand the situation of CF after more >than 16 years of history. > >- WHAT IS COLD FUSION (LENR, CANR, >CMNS)? > Mike and Peter: Cold fusion is the generation of anomalous excess heat at low temperatures. It began with experiments using an immersed palladium electrode activated in heavy water. In March, 1989, when the achievement of cold fusion was first reported in the press, electrochemically induced reactions were very difficult to reproduce. Despite the ensuing controversy, much work has persisted. http://world.std.com/~mica/cftsci.html --------------------------- >- HOW DOES IT WORK? One way is here: http://world.std.com/~mica/jet.html More here: http://world.std.com/~mica/jetinfo.html more here The 2005 Cold Fusion Colloquium " Cold Fusion and other Clean Energy Investigations from the Edge of the Envelope" with Special Tribute to Dr. Eugene Mallove, Cold Fusioneer, Investigator and MIT Graduate General Topics Science and Engineering Discussions of Cold Fusion Material Science, Review of Present literature concerning Cold Fusion Theoretical Understandings of Cold Fusion Cold Fusion Device Engineering Colloquium Schedule: Saturday, 5/21/05, 9 AM to 4 PM Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Cambridge, MA Colloquium - More information, program, pre-registration: http://world.std.com/~mica/colloq.html Colloquium Announcement http://world.std.com/~mica/cft.html From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 12 09:05:54 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3CG5K5N028280; Tue, 12 Apr 2005 09:05:21 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3CG5DLS028144; Tue, 12 Apr 2005 09:05:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 09:05:13 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050412112418.02c6d998 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 12:04:37 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: More thoughts about kite-generators In-Reply-To: <20050412151601.91594.qmail web81104.mail.yahoo.com> References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050412104448.02c59c90 pop.mindspring.com> <20050412151601.91594.qmail web81104.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_990203==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59155 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_990203==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Jones Beene wrote: > > I do not think those gigantic kites would require >ultra-strong tethers. They would not pull on the >tether much. > >This could not be correct, logically. > >IF you were right and the kite "would not pull on the >tether much" then you don't need a tehter at all!! Well, I think it has to overcome drag. That was my impression. But maybe you are right and the machine works like a seagull or hawk that can soar over one spot when the wind is strong enough to generate lift and overcome drag. That would explain why the weight of the tether is not a big issue and the machine can reach high altitudes. It is only needed for the power and control. Getting back to the autogyro, it is interesting because it can slow down to only 15 mph, which means there is very little energy going into the forward vector. But it cannot stop. To be exact, it *can* stop forward motion, but then it falls gently to the ground, like a falling sycamore pod. This is how an autogyro lands. An autogyro in a 15 mph headwind can hover over one spot. I heard about a crop duster pilot who could hover a Piper Cub in high winds close to stall speed. He would measure the wind speed by flying into the wind, looking down at the pine trees and slowing down until they stopped moving. Pretty crazy. >Simply divert some of the energy of the windmill into >a propeller giving forward thrust, equal to the "pull" >of the tether (this is easy to figure out), and >convert the rest of the wind energy to microwaves and >beam that energy to diode converters on the ground . . . Good point. It sounds like a boat sailing into the wind. (Actually, sailboats cannot sail directly into the wind but I suppose a ship was onboard wind turbines could.) But it might be complicated. At least for the initial designs a tether would probably have many advantages because it is a simple way to get the power down to the ground and it would also be good for control electronics and monitoring. And the microwave equipment would be heavy. Plus, it only works in one direction (from aircraft to ground), so you could not power the machine up to make it fly to altitude, or stay at altitude when the winds drops off. (Analogous to when the hawk flaps its wings a few times.) On the other hand, a tetherless design would be a lot safer for aircraft in the area. The biggest danger for an airplane would be whacking into a tether. WWII barrage balloons were effective because the aircraft risked hitting the cables, not the balloons themselves. When they did hit the cables, it was usually curtains for the airplane. For close-in airfield defense, the British used a rocket that shot up in the air pulling a cable and then deployed a parachute, to keep the cable hanging in the air for a minute or so. It sounds like a nutty Rube Goldberg machine but in 1940 they brought down several German airplanes with them. >Logic dictates that the windmill would need extremely >strong tethers, equal to the strain of the energy >produced - and that is the present drawback. Yes. The tower acts as a tether. When the wind is blowing it is pushed back and when the wind slows down and propellers are still turning, it is pulled forward. If you feather the propellers they store energy like a gigantic flywheel. It is not efficient but it does smooth over transient changes in windspeed. - Jed --=====================_990203==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Jones Beene wrote:

> I do not think those gigantic kites would require
ultra-strong tethers.  They would not pull on the
tether much.

This could not be correct, logically.

IF you were right and the kite "would not pull on the
tether much" then you don't need a tehter at all!!

Well, I think it has to overcome drag. That was my impression. But maybe you are right and the machine works like a seagull or hawk that can soar over one spot when the wind is strong enough to generate lift and overcome drag. That would explain why the weight of the tether is not a big issue and the machine can reach high altitudes. It is only needed for the power and control.

Getting back to the autogyro, it is interesting because it can slow down to only 15 mph, which means there is very little energy going into the forward vector. But it cannot stop. To be exact, it *can* stop forward motion, but then it falls gently to the ground, like a falling sycamore pod. This is how an autogyro lands.

An autogyro in a 15 mph headwind can hover over one spot. I heard about a crop duster pilot who could hover a Piper Cub in high winds close to stall speed. He would measure the wind speed by flying into the wind, looking down at the pine trees and slowing down until they stopped moving. Pretty crazy.


Simply divert some of the energy of the windmill into
a propeller giving forward thrust, equal to the "pull"
of the tether (this is easy to figure out), and
convert the rest of the wind energy to microwaves and
beam that energy to diode converters on the ground . . .

Good point. It sounds like a boat sailing into the wind. (Actually, sailboats cannot sail directly into the wind but I suppose a ship was onboard wind turbines could.)  But it might be complicated. At least for the initial designs a tether would probably have many advantages because it is a simple way to get the power down to the ground and it would also be good for control electronics and monitoring. And the microwave equipment would be heavy. Plus, it only works in one direction (from aircraft to ground), so you could not power the machine up to make it fly to altitude, or stay at altitude when the winds drops off. (Analogous to when the hawk flaps its wings a few times.)

On the other hand, a tetherless design would be a lot safer for aircraft in the area. The biggest danger for an airplane would be whacking into a tether. WWII barrage balloons were effective because the aircraft risked hitting the cables, not the balloons themselves. When they did hit the cables, it was usually curtains for the airplane. For close-in airfield defense, the British used a rocket that shot up in the air pulling a cable and then deployed a parachute, to keep the cable hanging in the air for a minute or so. It sounds like a nutty Rube Goldberg machine but in 1940 they brought down several German airplanes with them.


Logic dictates that the windmill would need extremely
strong tethers, equal to the strain of the energy
produced - and that is the present drawback.

Yes. The tower acts as a tether. When the wind is blowing it is pushed back and when the wind slows down and propellers are still turning, it is pulled forward. If you feather the propellers they store energy like a gigantic flywheel. It is not efficient but it does smooth over transient changes in windspeed.

- Jed
 --=====================_990203==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 12 09:15:41 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3CGFF5N002448; Tue, 12 Apr 2005 09:15:15 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3CGFBJd002431; Tue, 12 Apr 2005 09:15:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 09:15:11 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050412120654.02bbfc40 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 12:14:52 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: RE: What if all cars ran on electricity . . . In-Reply-To: <20050412150613.88537.qmail web81104.mail.yahoo.com> References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050412102115.02c50c60 pop.mindspring.com> <20050412150613.88537.qmail web81104.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_1602359==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59156 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_1602359==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Jones Beene wrote: > > This calls for expensive and sophisticated meters. > >Not necessarily, in the near furure. I think this >metering capability could and will be done **very >cheaply** (less than $25 capital cost) and without >replacing the existing meter. > >One would need only to provide a tiny clamp-on current >probe to one side of the existing meter, BUT this >probe would be designed to have enhanced-RFID >capability. Good point. I was thinking of replacing the entire meter with electronic intelligent meters such as the ones used in California. I have heard these are pretty expensive, and of course they are extremely sophisticated compared to the meters in common use, which were invented in 1888 by a Westinghouse engineer. On the other hand, if we manufactured millions of them they would be very cheap, as you point out. This is like comparing digital watches to analog windup watches. Digital watches are more sophisticated but cheaper in large numbers. The water meter at my house was retrofitted with an electronic gadget that can be read by a county employee in a passing car. It is some kind of RFID transponder, I think. I think a sophisticated meter attached to the Internet would be the best long-term solution, especially with lots of wind powered electricity, because it would allow sophisticated remote-control of power consumption by the power company. This is what they do in California. They turn off people's air conditioners by remote control during peak hours. Customers who agree to let the power company do this get a discount. It beats brownouts. - Jed --=====================_1602359==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Jones Beene wrote:

> This calls for expensive and sophisticated meters.

Not necessarily, in the near furure. I think this
metering capability could and will be done **very
cheaply** (less than $25 capital cost) and without
replacing the existing meter.

One would need only to provide a tiny clamp-on current
probe to one side of the existing meter, BUT this
probe would be designed to have enhanced-RFID
capability.

Good point. I was thinking of replacing the entire meter with electronic intelligent meters such as the ones used in California. I have heard these are pretty expensive, and of course they are extremely sophisticated compared to the meters in common use, which were invented in 1888 by a Westinghouse engineer. On the other hand, if we manufactured millions of them they would be very cheap, as you point out. This is like comparing digital watches to analog windup watches. Digital watches are more sophisticated but cheaper in large numbers.

The water meter at my house was retrofitted with an electronic gadget that can be read by a county employee in a passing car. It is some kind of RFID transponder, I think.

I think a sophisticated meter attached to the Internet would be the best long-term solution, especially with lots of wind powered electricity, because it would allow sophisticated remote-control of power consumption by the power company. This is what they do in California. They turn off people's air conditioners by remote control during peak hours. Customers who agree to let the power company do this get a discount. It beats brownouts.

- Jed
--=====================_1602359==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 12 09:21:06 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3CGKT5N004860; Tue, 12 Apr 2005 09:20:29 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3CGKK08004793; Tue, 12 Apr 2005 09:20:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 09:20:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: What if all cars ran on electricity . . . Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 12:22:12 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <20050412150613.88537.qmail web81104.mail.yahoo.com> Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59157 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Sure. It would be _very_ cheap to replace the huge difficult to service electromechanical meters with networked solid state sensors. This has already been done with our gas service, years ago. In addition, it's far safer for us. Every couple of years there is a spate of robberies where the thieves pretend to be meter readers; a pair will gain access to the house and while one distracts the homeowner, the other steals what valuables can be immediately found. So why do we still have the meter service? If you ask the electric company, they predictably complain about the evil meter readers union. Well, I'm here to tell you, most unions in this town are so horrifically corrupt and toothless, that they are kept around _only_ to provide cover such as above. The actual reason is very simple, if you can buy electricity at 4 cents a KW/H off peak and sell it at 16 cents KW/H, WHY IN BOGS NAME WOULD YOU EVER WANT TO CHANGE THAT SYSTEM??? No such discount can be had on gas, so the all powerful union was simply crushed like a bug, and the system was upgraded. The company could profit more from firing the workers and using the networked sensors, so that's exactly what happened. Another thing the electric company does is to not send the readers around when they want to manipulate their earnings reports. My office is right here in the house, so I'm always around. Last year I went for about 6 months without a reader coming. What they then do is estimate the bill, which means picking a number to hit their earnings estimate. They then send the readers around after the quarter ends, and readjust accordingly. What this means is I basically pay whatever they claim is the bill. They might as well have no meter at all. They call their company Con Edison for a reason. Hey, if it looks like medieval feudalism, well maybe it is... K. -----Original Message----- From: Jones Beene [mailto:jonesb9 pacbell.net] Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2005 11:06 AM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: What if all cars ran on electricity . . . Keith wrote: > >At least where I live, we are charged the same premium rate( 16 cents/KWH ) regardless of the time of day. There is no off-peak hour for my residential service. > This calls for expensive and sophisticated meters. Not necessarily, in the near furure. I think this metering capability could and will be done **very cheaply** (less than $25 capital cost) and without replacing the existing meter. One would need only to provide a tiny clamp-on current probe to one side of the existing meter, BUT this probe would be designed to have enhanced-RFID capability. When the meter-reader comes around each month, the enhanced-RFID wireless system reports the off-peak usage deduction- or alternatively the whole reading is completed, dispensing with the cost of a human reader, using cell phone transmitter technology. Once desingned and in mass-production this part is cheap and now in prototype stage. Some computer-on-a-chip enhanced RFID-units are said to have a cost of only a few dollars (presumably if you buy a million of them). Think of it as a single-purpose, miniature cell phone without baterries, glitz, and all the bells-and-whistles. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 12 09:37:12 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3CGax5N011823; Tue, 12 Apr 2005 09:37:00 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3CGavDL011815; Tue, 12 Apr 2005 09:36:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 09:36:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050412122446.02c68610 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 12:34:16 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: RE: What if all cars ran on electricity . . . In-Reply-To: References: <20050412150613.88537.qmail web81104.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_2911093==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: <4iy3pD.A.e4C.ok_WCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59158 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_2911093==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Keith Nagel wrote: >So why do we still have the meter service? If you >ask the electric company, they predictably complain >about the evil meter readers union. Well, I'm here to tell you, >most unions in this town are so horrifically corrupt >and toothless, that they are kept around _only_ to >provide cover such as above. The actual reason is >very simple, if you can buy electricity at 4 cents >a KW/H off peak and sell it at 16 cents KW/H, >WHY IN BOGS NAME WOULD YOU EVER WANT TO CHANGE THAT SYSTEM??? That hypothesis makes zero sense to me. It is always better for a company to have pinpoint control over prices. The more knowledge of company has of demand and customer behavior, the more it can optimize profit. The price of oranges or fresh corn at a grocery store varies from day-to-day (and sometimes from hour to hour) depending upon crop yield, futures and wholesale prices. The grocery store optimizes the price to sell many oranges, make the most profit per orange, and to prevent spoilage from unsold goods. The electric power company has the same kinds of problems. It has billions of dollars worth of equipment that sits idle for much of the day, costing interest. Then at peak hours a does not have enough equipment and it has to buy electricity from other power companies. The power company could make a much better profit if it could fine-tune prices to affect demand, and also if it could reach out and turn off a few hundred thousand air conditioners by remote control the way it does in California. I think we still have meter service because the power companies are not managed well and they do not employ the latest technology to optimize profit. The cost of collecting data from the meters is only a small percent of total expenses because meter readers only come around two to four times a year, as Nagel noted. Your bill is based on your previous history consumption. I do not see why anyone objects to this. Electric power consumption is usually quite predictable. The power company may overcharge you during some quarters, but it is bound to undercharge you in others. Occasionally after you have been overcharged you get a statement saying you own no money, but this seldom happens to me. - Jed --=====================_2911093==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Keith Nagel wrote:

So why do we still have the meter service? If you
ask the electric company, they predictably complain
about the evil meter readers union. Well, I'm here to tell you,
most unions in this town are so horrifically corrupt
and toothless, that they are kept around _only_ to
provide cover such as above. The actual reason is
very simple, if you can buy electricity at 4 cents
a KW/H off peak and sell it at 16 cents KW/H,
WHY IN BOGS NAME WOULD YOU EVER WANT TO CHANGE THAT SYSTEM???

That hypothesis makes zero sense to me. It is always better for a company to have pinpoint control over prices. The more knowledge of company has of demand and customer behavior, the more it can optimize profit. The price of oranges or fresh corn at a grocery store varies from day-to-day (and sometimes from hour to hour) depending upon crop yield, futures and wholesale prices. The grocery store optimizes the price to sell many oranges, make the most profit per orange, and to prevent spoilage from unsold goods. The electric power company has the same kinds of problems. It has billions of dollars worth of equipment that sits idle for much of the day, costing interest. Then at peak hours a does not have enough equipment and it has to buy electricity from other power companies. The power company could make a much better profit if it could fine-tune prices to affect demand, and also if it could reach out and turn off a few hundred thousand air conditioners by remote control the way it does in California.

I think we still have meter service because the power companies are not managed well and they do not employ the latest technology to optimize profit.

The cost of collecting data from the meters is only a small percent of total expenses because meter readers only come around two to four times a year, as Nagel noted. Your bill is based on your previous history consumption. I do not see why anyone objects to this. Electric power consumption is usually quite predictable. The power company may overcharge you during some quarters, but it is bound to undercharge you in others. Occasionally after you have been overcharged you get a statement saying you own no money, but this seldom happens to me.

- Jed
 --=====================_2911093==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 12 10:14:20 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3CHE25N028182; Tue, 12 Apr 2005 10:14:03 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3CHDvSo028134; Tue, 12 Apr 2005 10:13:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 10:13:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: What if all cars ran on electricity . . . Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 13:15:30 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050412122446.02c68610 pop.mindspring.com> Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59159 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Jed, What's so hard to understand? If I can take a commodity worth 4 cents and sell it to you for 16 cents, I make a huge profit. If I install special meters that allow you to buy the same commodity for 4 cents, I don't make a huge profit. Remember, I'm ALWAYS paying the peak cost, regardless of how much the commodity costs to manufacture. A good metering system would cut my electricity bill in half at least. Also, the readers are supposed to come once a month. Why do you suppose there are times when I don't see them for 4 to 6 months at a time? As I said, I'm here all the time. But I'll agree that to really prove my case I'd have to analyze my bill more carefully. That would be hard though; because they're always estimating it's very difficult without reading the meter every month myself to know what's happening, and looking at Con Ed's 10Q's and K's. I do suggest that presumption of innocence on the part of the electric co. may be a bit naive. Actually, comparing the Gas and Electric co's are like night and day. The gas co ( BUG ) is a model of efficiency and honesty compared to the electric. They even give you postage paid envelopes to mail in your check. The only thing they do that I don't like is charge a large fixed cost over what I actually use in gas. But I use very little gas, and they have a big system to maintain. They would go broke providing residential service without gas heating. Hence the fixed cost. It's not even that much, only about 13USD per month. I often contemplate what savings I might get from a gas powered genset... At current pricing it may well be practical. K. -----Original Message----- From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:jedrothwell mindspring.com] Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2005 12:34 PM To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: RE: What if all cars ran on electricity . . . Keith Nagel wrote: So why do we still have the meter service? If you ask the electric company, they predictably complain about the evil meter readers union. Well, I'm here to tell you, most unions in this town are so horrifically corrupt and toothless, that they are kept around _only_ to provide cover such as above. The actual reason is very simple, if you can buy electricity at 4 cents a KW/H off peak and sell it at 16 cents KW/H, WHY IN BOGS NAME WOULD YOU EVER WANT TO CHANGE THAT SYSTEM??? That hypothesis makes zero sense to me. It is always better for a company to have pinpoint control over prices. The more knowledge of company has of demand and customer behavior, the more it can optimize profit. The price of oranges or fresh corn at a grocery store varies from day-to-day (and sometimes from hour to hour) depending upon crop yield, futures and wholesale prices. The grocery store optimizes the price to sell many oranges, make the most profit per orange, and to prevent spoilage from unsold goods. The electric power company has the same kinds of problems. It has billions of dollars worth of equipment that sits idle for much of the day, costing interest. Then at peak hours a does not have enough equipment and it has to buy electricity from other power companies. The power company could make a much better profit if it could fine-tune prices to affect demand, and also if it could reach out and turn off a few hundred thousand air conditioners by remote control the way it does in California. I think we still have meter service because the power companies are not managed well and they do not employ the latest technology to optimize profit. The cost of collecting data from the meters is only a small percent of total expenses because meter readers only come around two to four times a year, as Nagel noted. Your bill is based on your previous history consumption. I do not see why anyone objects to this. Electric power consumption is usually quite predictable. The power company may overcharge you during some quarters, but it is bound to undercharge you in others. Occasionally after you have been overcharged you get a statement saying you own no money, but this seldom happens to me. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 12 10:21:41 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3CHLL5N000711; Tue, 12 Apr 2005 10:21:21 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3CHLIf2000687; Tue, 12 Apr 2005 10:21:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 10:21:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050412130220.02bb71c0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 13:20:59 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Energy harvesting kites? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_5575203==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59160 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_5575203==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Jones Beene suggested that kites might send energy back to rest in microwave beams. The disadvantage to this, compared to a tether, would be they could not easily be powered to go from ground level to high altitude. Here is another idea -- which is kind of nutty. A few years ago, NASA tried to build a solar powered airplane with electric motors. It was launched in Hawaii. I believe it crashed, but anyway the idea was reasonably sound. The solar cells produced extra power during the day, which was stored up as hydrogen to power fuel cell batteries at night. Suppose we could devise very lightweight hydrogen storage or very lightweight high-capacity batteries. A kite is given an initial load of hydrogen (or battery charge) enough to reach high altitude. It stays at altitude producing hydrogen until the energy storage is full. It descends to earth and unloads the extra fuel, and flies back up again to generate more. This reminds me of the proposal made by von Neumann to produce self replicating solar powered robot boats that go out to the ocean, gather materials to replicate, and also produce pure water with the excess power. Then they return to shore to offload the water. Someone wrote a short story or essay about this describing how the boats replicate out of control, and millions of them block the sea lanes. I recall the imaginary company was named after Karl Capek or his play "Rossum's Universal Robots." Capek invented the word "robot," from the Slavic word for "work" or "worker". He was also author of "War With The Newts," which I highly recommend. - Jed --=====================_5575203==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Jones Beene suggested that kites might send energy back to rest in microwave beams. The disadvantage to this, compared to a tether, would be they could not easily be powered to go from ground level to high altitude.

Here is another idea -- which is kind of nutty. A few years ago, NASA tried to build a solar powered airplane with electric motors. It was launched in Hawaii. I believe it crashed, but anyway the idea was reasonably sound. The solar cells produced extra power during the day, which was stored up as hydrogen to power fuel cell batteries at night. Suppose we could devise very lightweight hydrogen storage or very lightweight high-capacity batteries. A kite is given an initial load of hydrogen (or battery charge) enough to reach high altitude. It stays at altitude producing hydrogen until the energy storage is full. It descends to earth and unloads the extra fuel, and flies back up again to generate more.

This reminds me of the proposal made by von Neumann to produce self replicating solar powered robot boats that go out to the ocean, gather materials to replicate, and also produce pure water with the excess power. Then they return to shore to offload the water. Someone wrote a short story or essay about this describing how the boats replicate out of control, and millions of them block the sea lanes. I recall the imaginary company was named after Karl Capek or his play "Rossum's Universal Robots." Capek invented the word "robot," from the Slavic word for "work" or "worker". He was also author of "War With The Newts," which I highly recommend.

- Jed
 --=====================_5575203==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 12 10:35:18 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3CHYc5N005784; Tue, 12 Apr 2005 10:34:42 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3CHYaTi005765; Tue, 12 Apr 2005 10:34:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 10:34:36 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <001c01c53f85$de5c2c30$0100007f xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: water into wine Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 12:33:45 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0018_01C53F5B.DE5D2FB0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-100.0 required=4.0 tests=HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59161 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C53F5B.DE5D2FB0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0019_01C53F5B.DE603CF0" ------=_NextPart_001_0019_01C53F5B.DE603CF0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankThe thought of water having properties in the order of a capacitor = begs the question of HOW or what exactly triggers the discharge. = Thinking of the energy discharged across the duration of a hurricane or = tornado is astounding because an actual buildup of energy occurs as the = storm intensifies.=20 What is the triggering mechanism, and what is the mechanism that " = dampens" the intensity until the vortex collapses to calm? A hurricane in its awesome power DOES NOT discharge like a capacitor.. = it continues to maintain and increase charge as it progresses. The mechanism may NOT be the obvious.It may be a minor temperature = differential but it may be something much more elusive yet staring us in = the face with a smile as nature often does.=20 I have often considered the migrating geese and their ability to remain = airborne for extended time. The V formation and the=20 "honking" could be more than a subtle clue. The V formation provides = the trigger to create vortexes the geese use to remain aloft with little = energy consumption. The Geese may use infrared sensors in their beaks to = locate the vortexes. BUT!! why the honk? Is there more to the sound than we realize = beside geese talk for company on a long vacation? Do sonics play a role in triggering or sustaining a vortex? In our tests = of " shapes" that induce water vortexes, it seems the size of the shape = is not important, it is the configuration ..we use very small parabolic = shapes yhat can induce the generation of a vortex which in turn can = release a great amount of energy. Segments of parabolas have = concentrating features as demonstrated by a rock group using amplifiers = and parabolic speakers. Light sources concentrate at the base of a = mirrored parabola regardless of the direction they enter.=20 SL and sonifusion use sound to trigger the SL energy release.. but.. is = it sound or light that is the triggering mechanisn? Could it be the sound acts like a fuse in a horwitzer and the resultant = UV light be the gunpowder that produces the SL effect? The SL effect can repeatedly cycle as long as a bubble and sound are = present. A hurricane magnifies over water and decays over land.( = Tornados form over land as well as water). but are we sure it is the = land mass that stalls the winds that actually diminishes the energy = release and it collapses like a discharged capacitor. We have clues to finding Mr. Nobody (some describe him by his initials = CENR).. He could be anywhere.. may even be lurking in this group..Only = the shadow knows. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0019_01C53F5B.DE603CF0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
The thought of water having properties in the order of a capacitor = begs the=20 question of HOW or what exactly triggers the discharge. Thinking of the = energy=20 discharged across the duration of a hurricane or tornado is = astounding=20 because an actual buildup of energy occurs as  the storm=20 intensifies.
What is the triggering mechanism, and what is the mechanism that " = dampens"=20 the intensity until the vortex collapses to calm?
A hurricane in its awesome power DOES NOT discharge like a = capacitor.. it=20 continues to maintain and increase charge as it progresses.
The mechanism may NOT be the obvious.It may be a minor  = temperature=20 differential but it may be something much more elusive yet staring us in = the=20 face with a smile as nature often does.
I have often considered the migrating geese and their ability to = remain=20 airborne for extended time. The V formation and the
"honking" could be  more than a subtle clue. The V formation = provides=20 the trigger to create vortexes the geese use to remain aloft with little = energy=20 consumption. The Geese may use infrared sensors in their beaks to locate = the=20 vortexes.
 
BUT!!     why the honk? Is there more to the = sound than=20 we realize beside geese talk for company on a long  vacation?
Do sonics play a role in triggering or sustaining a vortex? In = our=20 tests of " shapes" that induce water vortexes, it seems the size of the = shape is=20 not important, it is the configuration ..we use very small = parabolic shapes=20 yhat can induce the generation of a vortex which in turn can = release  a=20 great amount of energy. Segments of parabolas have concentrating = features as=20 demonstrated by a rock group using amplifiers and parabolic speakers. = Light=20 sources concentrate at the base of a mirrored parabola regardless of the = direction they enter.
SL and sonifusion use sound to trigger the SL  energy = release.. but..=20 is it sound or light that is the triggering mechanisn?
Could it be the sound acts like a  fuse in a horwitzer and the = resultant UV light be the gunpowder that produces the SL effect?
The SL effect can  repeatedly cycle as long as a bubble and = sound are=20 present. A hurricane magnifies over water  and decays over land.( = Tornados=20 form over land as well as water). but are we sure it is the land mass = that=20 stalls the winds that actually diminishes the energy release and it = collapses=20 like a discharged capacitor.
 
We have clues to finding Mr. Nobody (some describe him by = his initials=20 CENR).. He could be anywhere.. may even be lurking in this = group..Only the=20 shadow knows.
 
Richard
 

 

------=_NextPart_001_0019_01C53F5B.DE603CF0-- ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C53F5B.DE5D2FB0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <001701c53f85$c7288950$0100007f xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C53F5B.DE5D2FB0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 12 10:43:54 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3CHhW5N009751; Tue, 12 Apr 2005 10:43:33 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3CHhSBv009716; Tue, 12 Apr 2005 10:43:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 10:43:28 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002501c53f87$1d2ab480$0100007f xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: water into wine Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 12:43:18 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0021_01C53F5D.33DD80B0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-99.2 required=4.0 tests=HTML_30_40,HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: <9u2EeB.A.kXC._iAXCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59162 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0021_01C53F5D.33DD80B0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0022_01C53F5D.33DD80B0" ------=_NextPart_001_0022_01C53F5D.33DD80B0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankAs our applied research continues on an inductor that generates = higher rotational speed vortexes up to 10,000RPM, one of our tasks = include designing a hollowshaft unit that will permit firing a UV laser = light directly into the center cone of the vortex together with a sonic = gun that can shoot sound down the hollow shaft . As the movie Dirty Harry ..Danny Glover.. says " I gotsta know" Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0022_01C53F5D.33DD80B0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
As our applied research continues on an inductor that generates = higher=20 rotational speed vortexes up to 10,000RPM, one of our tasks include = designing a=20 hollowshaft unit that will permit firing a UV laser light directly into = the=20 center cone of the vortex together with a  sonic gun that can = shoot=20 sound down the hollow shaft .
 
As the movie Dirty Harry ..Danny Glover.. says " I gotsta = know"
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_0022_01C53F5D.33DD80B0-- ------=_NextPart_000_0021_01C53F5D.33DD80B0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <002001c53f87$1cb07b70$0100007f xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0021_01C53F5D.33DD80B0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 12 10:51:15 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3CHou5N012802; Tue, 12 Apr 2005 10:50:56 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3CHoq0k012765; Tue, 12 Apr 2005 10:50:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 10:50:52 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050412132216.02c58c90 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 13:27:46 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: RE: What if all cars ran on electricity . . . In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050412122446.02c68610 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_7352078==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59163 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_7352078==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Keith Nagel wrote: >Hi Jed, > >What's so hard to understand? If I can take a commodity >worth 4 cents and sell it to you for 16 cents, I make >a huge profit. If I install special meters that allow >you to buy the same commodity for 4 cents, I don't >make a huge profit. On the contrary, you might make a much larger profit selling it for less. This is Business 101. If you can sell much more electricity overall by lowering the price, you make a larger profit, and your own overhead expenses per kWh fall. Or, if you can encourage people to spread out their demand for electricity and use it during off hours, you make better use of your generator and distribution network which is often sitting idle making no money at all. Selling electricity at a huge premium -- a fixed price of 16 cents/kWh -- is like selling oranges in a grocery store for $5 each. Your store sits empty with no customers, while you pay employees and rent. At the end of the week you throw away thousands of unsold oranges. It makes much more sense to lower the price of oranges, increase the number of customers, and move more merchandise. As the wholesale price and customer demand varies, you tweak the price to optimize profits. Actually, if electricity costs 4 cents, you would not sell it for 4 cents, but rather 6 or 8 cents off-peak. At peak hours of the day you would raise the price to 25 cents. Overall the average cost would be well above 4 cents, even if it was a little lower than 16 cents. (Or it might be higher -- whatever is most profitable.) You would sell a lot more electricity, making much more profit, and you would spread out the use of electricity to reduce peak demand. Telephone rates have always varied by time of day, because the telephone equipment sits idle at night, and the phone company wants to encourage people to use it at night rather than during peak hours during the business day. The power companies cost is not actually fixed at 4 cents. Most of their expenses go to pay for the equipment and network, and if the equipment sits idle their "cost" is a lot higher. If they could sell much more electricity, their only additional expense would be for more fuel, and their overall cost per kWh might fall to 3 cents. >Remember, I'm ALWAYS paying the peak cost, regardless >of how much the commodity costs to manufacture. > >A good metering system would cut my electricity bill in >half at least. And it would double power company profits -- which are very low. It is a win-win situation, just as it is when the grocery store tweaks the cost of oranges, or the telephone company offers you reduced rates or zero-cost service at night. >Also, the readers are supposed to come once a month. Not in Atlanta Georgia or Adams County Pennsylvania, they aren't. It says right there in the small print on the electric bill that they estimate charges and they come two to four times per year. Where you live, I doubt they are supposed to come more often but they do not. The public service commission would be upset. Anyway, why would anyone care how often they come? As long as the charges are correct over the long-term who cares whether they vary a little month-to-month? In Atlanta, you can arrange to pay the entire bill a year ahead of time in return for a considerable discount. At the end of the year they read the meter and make adjustments. It would be a big advantage if the power company could monitor your usage from second to second with an electronic meter and remote control over your largest electric appliances. (The ones that do not mind being turned off abruptly -- not the washing machine!) However, I see no advantage to monitoring once a month compared to twice a year. - Jed --=====================_7352078==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Keith Nagel wrote:

Hi Jed,

What's so hard to understand? If I can take a commodity
worth 4 cents and sell it to you for 16 cents, I make
a huge profit. If I install special meters that allow
you to buy the same commodity for 4 cents, I don't
make a huge profit.

On the contrary, you might make a much larger profit selling it for less. This is Business 101. If you can sell much more electricity overall by lowering the price, you make a larger profit, and your own overhead expenses per kWh fall. Or, if you can encourage people to spread out their demand for electricity and use it during off hours, you make better use of your generator and distribution network which is often sitting idle making no money at all.

Selling electricity at a huge premium -- a fixed price of 16 cents/kWh -- is like selling oranges in a grocery store for $5 each. Your store sits empty with no customers, while you pay employees and rent. At the end of the week you throw away thousands of unsold oranges. It makes much more sense to lower the price of oranges, increase the number of customers, and move more merchandise. As the wholesale price and customer demand varies, you tweak the price to optimize profits.

Actually, if electricity costs 4 cents, you would not sell it for 4 cents, but rather 6 or 8 cents off-peak. At peak hours of the day you would raise the price to 25 cents. Overall the average cost would be well above 4 cents, even if it was a little lower than 16 cents. (Or it might be higher -- whatever is most profitable.) You would sell a lot more electricity, making much more profit, and you would spread out the use of electricity to reduce peak demand. Telephone rates have always varied by time of day, because the telephone equipment sits idle at night, and the phone company wants to encourage people to use it at night rather than during peak hours during the business day.

The power companies cost is not actually fixed at 4 cents. Most of their expenses go to pay for the equipment and network, and if the equipment sits idle their "cost" is a lot higher. If they could sell much more electricity, their only additional expense would be for more fuel, and their overall cost per kWh might fall to 3 cents.


Remember, I'm ALWAYS paying the peak cost, regardless
of how much the commodity costs to manufacture.

A good metering system would cut my electricity bill in
half at least.

And it would double power company profits -- which are very low. It is a win-win situation, just as it is when the grocery store tweaks the cost of oranges, or the telephone company offers you reduced rates or zero-cost service at night.


Also, the readers are supposed to come once a month.

Not in Atlanta Georgia or Adams County Pennsylvania, they aren't. It says right there in the small print on the electric bill that they estimate charges and they come two to four times per year. Where you live, I doubt they are supposed to come more often but they do not. The public service commission would be upset.

Anyway, why would anyone care how often they come? As long as the charges are correct over the long-term who cares whether they vary a little month-to-month? In Atlanta, you can arrange to pay the entire bill a year ahead of time in return for a considerable discount. At the end of the year they read the meter and make adjustments. It would be a big advantage if the power company could monitor your usage from second to second with an electronic meter and remote control over your largest electric appliances. (The ones that do not mind being turned off abruptly -- not the washing machine!) However, I see no advantage to monitoring once a month compared to twice a year.

- Jed
--=====================_7352078==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 12 10:57:19 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3CHuv5N015551; Tue, 12 Apr 2005 10:56:57 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3CHutLt015519; Tue, 12 Apr 2005 10:56:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 10:56:55 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20050412175646.21609.qmail web81105.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 10:56:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: water into wine To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <002501c53f87$1d2ab480$0100007f xptower> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="0-1374788057-1113328606=:21537" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59164 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-1374788057-1113328606=:21537 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Id: Content-Disposition: inline --- RC Macaulay wrote: > BlankAs our applied research continues on an > inductor that generates higher rotational speed > vortexes up to 10,000RPM, one of our tasks include > designing a hollowshaft unit that will permit firing > a UV laser light directly into the center cone of > the vortex together with a sonic gun that can shoot > sound down the hollow shaft . Richard, Since you are going to have a hollow shaft, it makes since to make the I.D. of the shaft of a particular size, if possible. That rationale is so that you can also try using microwaves at the resoant frequency of the water molecule, which is 22 Ghz. If you make the ID a quarter wavelength to this - less than a cm. then you have all the bases covered. Hey, it is probably possible to figure out a way to overlay all of these inputs into an active region! Jones --0-1374788057-1113328606=:21537-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 12 12:09:20 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3CJ945N013391; Tue, 12 Apr 2005 12:09:04 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3CJ918s013360; Tue, 12 Apr 2005 12:09:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 12:09:01 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050412143300.02bde348 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 15:08:47 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Energy harvesting kites? In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050412130220.02bb71c0 pop.mindspring.com> References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050412130220.02bb71c0 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_12039687==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59165 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_12039687==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I did not enumerate the advantages of these energy harvesting kites. Actually, they would not be kites at all, but mobile aircraft. You can manufacture them in one place and have them fly elsewhere. They might descend from the sky to deliver hydrogen to a shopping mall or factory. They would combine the energy generation and distribution system in one machine. They would replace most of the electric power distribution network, most large pipelines, and all oil tankers and coal hauling railroads. There would be a penalty for having the kites travel long distances. The penalty would be in both energy and wear and tear on the equipment. So normally they would operate close to their home bases, but if there were energy shortages in one part of the world because of seasonal variations in wind, the kites could move energy from one place to another. You would probably not want to deploy them over New York City where there are many airports and where people are skittish about large machines hovering in the sky. To supply hydrogen for New York, you would have them hover far out over the Atlantic and land in New Jersey. The kites would be scalable; they would deliver a little power or a lot, depending on your needs. A small town might have one visit every few months, whereas a large city might have hundreds a day. The Skypower people want to make units with 1.5 MW of capacity. If you deployed roughly 5 million of these, with 200,000 held in reserve or in maintenance on the ground, they would generate all of the energy needed worldwide, and distribute it wherever it is needed. If the power was delivered in the form of hydrogen, variation in winds and peak electric power demand would make no difference. Supply would be smoothed out and continuous. Hydrogen would also be good for transportation applications. If the power could be stored up in ultralight high-capacity batteries, this would mean the battery problem is solved and we would have battery powered automobiles and large banks of batteries to smooth out peak demand. High-altitude hovering aircraft would also be very useful for television broadcasts and cell phone towers. For television they would probably be better than satellites, and much cheaper. Safety would be an issue. Five million autonomous kites would cause accidents from time to time. Kites would go out of control and crash, or aircraft would collide with them. Stored up hydrogen might explode. They would also be unsightly, and at their home base where they would be taking off and landing all day long they would be noisy. However, many large cities are close to oceans or deserts where the kites could be deployed without bothering anyone and without hurting anyone if they fell. But no energy system is perfect. Even wind turbines cause deaths. Workmen fall from them and are electrocuted. However wind turbines are the safest source of energy yet devised. They are much safer than nuclear power plants, which have killed thousands of people during the mining and preparation of uranium. Modern uranium mines are supposed to be safer, but they are still a threat. The kites would pollute less than any other energy source except cold fusion. The only pollution would be in the manufacture and disposal of equipment. It would not take much material to construct 5 million light aircraft. Most of the material would be carbon composite, which is not toxic as far as I know. Carbon is available in unlimited amounts. Some people have objected to building large unsightly ground-based wind turbines close to historic places and wilderness areas. These kites would be so high up in the sky they would probably not be visible, and many of them would be out over the open ocean, as I said. They would take up practically no space on the ground. They share this attribute with offshore wind turbines. - Jed --=====================_12039687==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" I did not enumerate the advantages of these energy harvesting kites.

Actually, they would not be kites at all, but mobile aircraft. You can manufacture them in one place and have them fly elsewhere. They might descend from the sky to deliver hydrogen to a shopping mall or factory. They would combine the energy generation and distribution system in one machine. They would replace most of the electric power distribution network, most large pipelines, and all oil tankers and coal hauling railroads.

There would be a penalty for having the kites travel long distances. The penalty would be in both energy and wear and tear on the equipment. So normally they would operate close to their home bases, but if there were energy shortages in one part of the world because of seasonal variations in wind, the kites could move energy from one place to another. You would probably not want to deploy them over New York City where there are many airports and where people are skittish about large machines hovering in the sky. To supply hydrogen for New York, you would have them hover far out over the Atlantic and land in New Jersey.

The kites would be scalable; they would deliver a little power or a lot, depending on your needs. A small town might have one visit every few months, whereas a large city might have hundreds a day.

The Skypower people want to make units with 1.5 MW of capacity. If you deployed roughly 5 million of these, with 200,000 held in reserve or in maintenance on the ground, they would generate all of the energy needed worldwide, and distribute it wherever it is needed.

If the power was delivered in the form of hydrogen, variation in winds and peak electric power demand would make no difference. Supply would be smoothed out and continuous. Hydrogen would also be good for transportation applications. If the power could be stored up in ultralight high-capacity batteries, this would mean the battery problem is solved and we would have battery powered automobiles and large banks of batteries to smooth out peak demand.

High-altitude hovering aircraft would also be very useful for television broadcasts and cell phone towers. For television they would probably be better than satellites, and much cheaper.

Safety would be an issue. Five million autonomous kites would cause accidents from time to time. Kites would go out of control and crash, or aircraft would collide with them. Stored up hydrogen might explode. They would also be unsightly, and at their home base where they would be taking off and landing all day long they would be noisy. However, many large cities are close to oceans or deserts where the kites could be deployed without bothering anyone and without hurting anyone if they fell. But no energy system is perfect. Even wind turbines cause deaths. Workmen fall from them and are electrocuted. However wind turbines are the safest source of energy yet devised. They are much safer than nuclear power plants, which have killed thousands of people during the mining and preparation of uranium. Modern uranium mines are supposed to be safer, but they are still a threat.

The kites would pollute less than any other energy source except cold fusion. The only pollution would be in the manufacture and disposal of equipment. It would not take much material to construct 5 million light aircraft. Most of the material would be carbon composite, which is not toxic as far as I know. Carbon is available in unlimited amounts.

Some people have objected to building large unsightly ground-based wind turbines close to historic places and wilderness areas. These kites would be so high up in the sky they would probably not be visible, and many of them would be out over the open ocean, as I said.

They would take up practically no space on the ground. They share this attribute with offshore wind turbines.

- Jed
 --=====================_12039687==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 12 12:39:18 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3CJd55N026851; Tue, 12 Apr 2005 12:39:05 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3CJd4sq026826; Tue, 12 Apr 2005 12:39:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 12:39:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Standing Bear To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Energy harvesting kites? Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 15:48:39 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050412130220.02bb71c0 pop.mindspring.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050412143300.02bde348@pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050412143300.02bde348 pop.mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200504121548.01761.rockcast earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59166 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > > High-altitude hovering aircraft would also be very useful for television > broadcasts and cell phone towers. For television they would probably be > better than satellites, and much cheaper. > > Safety would be an issue. Five million autonomous kites would cause > accidents from time to time. Kites would go out of control and crash, or > aircraft would collide with them. Stored up hydrogen might explode. They > would also be unsightly, and at their home base where they would be taking > off and landing all day long they would be noisy. However, many large > cities are close to oceans or deserts where the kites could be deployed > without bothering anyone and without hurting anyone if they fell. But no > energy system is perfect. Even wind turbines cause deaths. Workmen fall > from them and are electrocuted. However wind turbines are the safest source > of energy yet devised. They are much safer than nuclear power plants, which > have killed thousands of people during the mining and preparation of > uranium. Modern uranium mines are supposed to be safer, but they are still > a threat. > > The kites would pollute less than any other energy source except cold > fusion. The only pollution would be in the manufacture and disposal of > equipment. It would not take much material to construct 5 million light > aircraft. Most of the material would be carbon composite, which is not > toxic as far as I know. Carbon is available in unlimited amounts. > > Some people have objected to building large unsightly ground-based wind > turbines close to historic places and wilderness areas. These kites would > be so high up in the sky they would probably not be visible, and many of > them would be out over the open ocean, as I said. > > They would take up practically no space on the ground. They share this > attribute with offshore wind turbines. > > - Jed Wind turbines are not unsightly, they are graceful expressions of modern technology as art. Just go outside Barstow, California and look for yourself. Autonomous craft can and should be equipped with computers and GPS so that they stay out of TCA's and transport corridors and they will be no problem if they stay where they should. Errant drones can be automatically landed by redundant systems that take over upon the failure of primaries. To self destruct them would be wastefull of the cost of the equipment and possibly a danger to others in the vicinity, and one can never know for certain that an area is truly empty. I routinely would go into the deepest desert areas in North America to hunt jack rabbits. Standing Bear From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 12 12:41:46 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3CJfY5N027739; Tue, 12 Apr 2005 12:41:34 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3CJfWdP027719; Tue, 12 Apr 2005 12:41:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 12:41:32 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: What if all cars ran on electricity . . . Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 15:43:28 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050412132216.02c58c90 pop.mindspring.com> Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59167 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Jed, Your analogy of the oranges is faulty. It presumes I can walk down the street to another store and buy them cheaper. The real situation is that, because Con Ed control the distribution system, I can't really deal with anyone but them. When the industry was deregulated, I looked into buying from other dealers. Prices were all about the same, if not more, because of the "problem" with the distribution system I described. Until the system is upgraded, the pricing will remain about the same regardless of whom I buy from. In answer to your second statement, they are supposed to come once a month because the price ( and bill ) is calculated on a monthly basis. So for example, during peak summer months they charge me the peak price for an estimate ALWAYS over what I use. This results in my providing them with an interest free loan, which they ( eventually ) get around to paying sometime in the fall. If your argument held water, they would undercharge me about as often as they overcharge. In reality, they ALWAYS overcharge me. Because they estimate so often, their estimates are based on their estimates, not on my actual montly usage. Like I said, there is no reason they cannot behave ethically, as the gas company does. It just profits them more not to, and they apparently have enough political clout to do it without consequence. K. -----Original Message----- From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:jedrothwell mindspring.com] Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2005 1:28 PM To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: RE: What if all cars ran on electricity . . . Keith Nagel wrote: Hi Jed, What's so hard to understand? If I can take a commodity worth 4 cents and sell it to you for 16 cents, I make a huge profit. If I install special meters that allow you to buy the same commodity for 4 cents, I don't make a huge profit. On the contrary, you might make a much larger profit selling it for less. This is Business 101. If you can sell much more electricity overall by lowering the price, you make a larger profit, and your own overhead expenses per kWh fall. Or, if you can encourage people to spread out their demand for electricity and use it during off hours, you make better use of your generator and distribution network which is often sitting idle making no money at all. Selling electricity at a huge premium -- a fixed price of 16 cents/kWh -- is like selling oranges in a grocery store for $5 each. Your store sits empty with no customers, while you pay employees and rent. At the end of the week you throw away thousands of unsold oranges. It makes much more sense to lower the price of oranges, increase the number of customers, and move more merchandise. As the wholesale price and customer demand varies, you tweak the price to optimize profits. Actually, if electricity costs 4 cents, you would not sell it for 4 cents, but rather 6 or 8 cents off-peak. At peak hours of the day you would raise the price to 25 cents. Overall the average cost would be well above 4 cents, even if it was a little lower than 16 cents. (Or it might be higher -- whatever is most profitable.) You would sell a lot more electricity, making much more profit, and you would spread out the use of electricity to reduce peak demand. Telephone rates have always varied by time of day, because the telephone equipment sits idle at night, and the phone company wants to encourage people to use it at night rather than during peak hours during the business day. The power companies cost is not actually fixed at 4 cents. Most of their expenses go to pay for the equipment and network, and if the equipment sits idle their "cost" is a lot higher. If they could sell much more electricity, their only additional expense would be for more fuel, and their overall cost per kWh might fall to 3 cents. Remember, I'm ALWAYS paying the peak cost, regardless of how much the commodity costs to manufacture. A good metering system would cut my electricity bill in half at least. And it would double power company profits -- which are very low. It is a win-win situation, just as it is when the grocery store tweaks the cost of oranges, or the telephone company offers you reduced rates or zero-cost service at night. Also, the readers are supposed to come once a month. Not in Atlanta Georgia or Adams County Pennsylvania, they aren't. It says right there in the small print on the electric bill that they estimate charges and they come two to four times per year. Where you live, I doubt they are supposed to come more often but they do not. The public service commission would be upset. Anyway, why would anyone care how often they come? As long as the charges are correct over the long-term who cares whether they vary a little month-to-month? In Atlanta, you can arrange to pay the entire bill a year ahead of time in return for a considerable discount. At the end of the year they read the meter and make adjustments. It would be a big advantage if the power company could monitor your usage from second to second with an electronic meter and remote control over your largest electric appliances. (The ones that do not mind being turned off abruptly -- not the washing machine!) However, I see no advantage to monitoring once a month compared to twice a year. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 12 13:07:37 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3CK7O5N003614; Tue, 12 Apr 2005 13:07:25 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3CK7NeY003590; Tue, 12 Apr 2005 13:07:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 13:07:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050412154212.02c861e0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 16:06:59 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Energy harvesting kites? In-Reply-To: <200504121548.01761.rockcast earthlink.net> References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050412130220.02bb71c0 pop.mindspring.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050412143300.02bde348 pop.mindspring.com> <200504121548.01761.rockcast earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59168 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Standing Bear wrote: >Wind turbines are not unsightly, they are graceful expressions of modern >technology as art. Just go outside Barstow, California and look for yourself. I do not mind seeing a few of them, but to supply the entire world with energy we would need ~15 million (three times more than the high-altitude wind kites), and this would be unsightly. You would see them in practically every landscape on earth. They would be visible from places such as the great Wall, Toledo Spain, and the Pocanos, which should be left undisturbed in their original state. I do not like to see highways and power lines next to every ancient city, monument, wilderness area and empty plain, and I would not want to see wind turbines either. >problem if they stay where they should. Errant drones can be automatically >landed by redundant systems that take over upon the failure of primaries. > >To self destruct them would be wastefull of the cost of the equipment and >possibly a danger to others in the vicinity, and one can never know for >certain that an area is truly empty. I routinely would go into the deepest >desert areas in North America to hunt jack rabbits. I was not suggesting we would deliberately blow them up by remote control! Obviously a controlled emergency landing would be best, or even a semi-controlled crash landing such as a skilled helicopter pilot can sometimes make when the engine stops. However, with 5 million of these things in the air constantly it is inevitable that some would go completely out of control and crash. Some would be hit by lightning or torn apart by tornado winds. Redundant control computers would all fail from time to time. Five million far exceeds the number of airplanes in the sky at any given moment. This would call for major improvements in the air traffic control system, which needs to be modernized and improved in any case. There are always limits to safety. Oceangoing ships are tremendously expensive and they have the best redundant control systems, navigation and safety features people can devise, yet on average one ship is lost every week to shipwreck, fire or storm. (I think it is around 50 per year.) Many are also lost to pirates. This happens to be the golden age of piracy on the high seas. See: "Daily International Vessel Casualties & Pirates Daily Report," http://www.cargolaw.com/presentations_casualties.html - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 12 13:37:36 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3CKbI5N015790; Tue, 12 Apr 2005 13:37:19 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3CKb8vF015705; Tue, 12 Apr 2005 13:37:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 13:37:08 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050412160751.02c775e8 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 16:36:30 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: RE: What if all cars ran on electricity . . . In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050412132216.02c58c90 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_17321484==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59169 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_17321484==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Keith Nagel wrote: >Your analogy of the oranges is faulty. It presumes I can walk down the >street to another store and buy them cheaper. The real situation is that, >because Con Ed control the distribution system, I can't really deal with >anyone but them. In that case you can stop eating oranges. In other words, you can use less electricity. If you and a million other customers replaced your lights with compact fluorescent lights, and old refrigerator and other major appliances, the power company would be hurting. This is what happened in California after their fate crisis a few years ago. There is now a glut of power. Actually, Con Edison is located in an area where it is expensive to build and operate power generators, so higher prices are reasonable. But they would make a lot more money if they would vary their charge by time of day. Many people at home can choose to do the laundry at night instead of midafternoon when power demand is at its peak. Washing machines equipped with timers would help. The big users of electricity are corporations and factories, and if the price is unreasonable they will relocate or build private cogenerators. The use of private cogenerators in the US and Japan has increased dramatically in recent years. The power company is shooting itself in the foot by charging unreasonably high rates. In the end it will lose business. > When the industry was deregulated, I >looked into buying from other dealers. Prices were all about the >same, if not more, because of the "problem" with the distribution system I >described. It is difficult to make a truly free market for gas, electricity or gasoline with today's technology. Most of the consumer freedom of choice is on the consumption end: you can buy a more efficient refrigerator or automobile. I doubt that problem will ever be fixed. Eventually these technologies will be rendered obsolete by cold fusion or some other zero-cost small scale energy source, and the power companies will all go out of business. That will fix the problem. There are other interesting examples of technologies that will never be fixed. The QWERTY typewriter keyboard is a classic. It is drastically suboptimal, but I expect it will be with us for as long as people use keyboards. That should be for another 30 or 40 years. Then computers will work perfectly with voice input, a mouse and a few cursor control keys and special keys. Typing will be a lost art. Typing was invented around 1880 and it will last ~200 years which is a long time for technology. >In answer to your second statement, they are supposed to come once >a month because the price ( and bill ) is calculated on a monthly basis. I do not see why. I could not care less how often they measure it or how often they bill me. Billing once a month is traditional in the U.S. Anyway, what they are supposed to do is spelled out on the bill, and it says they only read the meter two to four times a year (I do not recall how often). >So for example, during peak summer months they charge me the peak price >for an estimate ALWAYS over what I use. This results in my providing them >with an interest free loan, which they ( eventually ) get around to paying >sometime in the fall. If your argument held water, they would undercharge >me about as often as they overcharge. They do, in effect. They hold your money for ransom during the summer, which gives them a tiny bit more profit from the interest, then they stop holding it for ransom during winter which gives you a little back. Anyway the amounts of money are trivial. You are probably careful to install compact fluorescent lights and other energy saving devices, but the average person who quibbles over a few dollars in lost interest is missing the point. He could save $10 a month by installing things such as compact fluorescent light bulbs and motion sensor light switches. - Jed --=====================_17321484==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Keith Nagel wrote:

Your analogy of the oranges is faulty. It presumes I can walk down the street to another store and buy them cheaper. The real situation is that, because Con Ed control the distribution system, I can't really deal with anyone but them.

In that case you can stop eating oranges. In other words, you can use less electricity. If you and a million other customers replaced your lights with compact fluorescent lights, and old refrigerator and other major appliances, the power company would be hurting. This is what happened in California after their fate crisis a few years ago. There is now a glut of power.

Actually, Con Edison is located in an area where it is expensive to build and operate power generators, so higher prices are reasonable. But they would make a lot more money if they would vary their charge by time of day. Many people at home can choose to do the laundry at night instead of midafternoon when power demand is at its peak. Washing machines equipped with timers would help.

The big users of electricity are corporations and factories, and if the price is unreasonable they will relocate or build private cogenerators. The use of private cogenerators in the US and Japan has increased dramatically in recent years. The power company is shooting itself in the foot by charging unreasonably high rates. In the end it will lose business.


 When the industry was deregulated, I
looked into buying from other dealers. Prices were all about the
same, if not more, because of the "problem" with the distribution system I described.

It is difficult to make a truly free market for gas, electricity or gasoline with today's technology. Most of the consumer freedom of choice is on the consumption end: you can buy a more efficient refrigerator or automobile. I doubt that problem will ever be fixed. Eventually these technologies will be rendered obsolete by cold fusion or some other zero-cost small scale energy source, and the power companies will all go out of business. That will fix the problem.

There are other interesting examples of technologies that will never be fixed. The QWERTY typewriter keyboard is a classic. It is drastically suboptimal, but I expect it will be with us for as long as people use keyboards. That should be for another 30 or 40 years. Then computers will work perfectly with voice input, a mouse and a few cursor control keys and special keys. Typing will be a lost art. Typing was invented around 1880 and it will last ~200 years which is a long time for technology.


In answer to your second statement, they are supposed to come once
a month because the price ( and bill ) is calculated on a monthly basis.

I do not see why. I could not care less how often they measure it or how often they bill me.  Billing once a month is traditional in the U.S. Anyway, what they are supposed to do is spelled out on the bill, and it says they only read the meter two to four times a year (I do not recall how often).


So for example, during peak summer months they charge me the peak price for an estimate ALWAYS over what I use. This results in my providing them with an interest free loan, which they ( eventually ) get around to paying sometime in the fall. If your argument held water, they would undercharge me about as often as they overcharge.

They do, in effect. They hold your money for ransom during the summer, which gives them a tiny bit more profit from the interest, then they stop holding it for ransom during winter which gives you a little back.

Anyway the amounts of money are trivial. You are probably careful to install compact fluorescent lights and other energy saving devices, but the average person who quibbles over a few dollars in lost interest is missing the point. He could save $10 a month by installing things such as compact fluorescent light bulbs and motion sensor light switches.

- Jed
--=====================_17321484==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 12 13:45:27 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3CKit5N018482; Tue, 12 Apr 2005 13:44:55 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3CKip8Q018457; Tue, 12 Apr 2005 13:44:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 13:44:51 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050412163956.02c86970 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 16:44:26 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Redundant safety systems failure Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <-I9COC.A.UgE.CNDXCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59170 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Here is a good example of what can happen. See the photos at the bottom of this page: http://www.cargolaw.com/2001nightmare-saudi-flop.html "White Planes Can't Jump" Kuala Lumpur International Airport The 2001 Countryman & McDaniel Cargo Nightmare 4th Place Co-Prize Winner "Normal brakes on a 747-300 are provided by system #4. Should system #4 be unable to supply pressure to the brakes, system #1 pressure may be used through a brake interconnect valve. The loss of system #4 pressure & system #1 pressure available -- automatically seclects the interconnect valve. There is a reserve brake system also. This reserve brake operates from system #2, but must be selected by the pilot. At the time of this mess, the inboard engines, #2 & #3 were the only engines operating, & the reserve brake selection from #2 was not made. No hydraulic AC pump was selected "On" for number #4 system. No brake pressure was available because of this. Also note that nose gear steering is only available from system 1#, so steering was not operable either." "TRANSLATION >> Do Not Try This At Home. Wait For The Pilot." From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 12 14:16:01 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3CLFk5N030354; Tue, 12 Apr 2005 14:15:46 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3CLFhUK030329; Tue, 12 Apr 2005 14:15:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 14:15:43 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=SIfz6+hl1NAdorEKsUmFh8i1HuiXgGOutFvipUR6yVf3PvGUhnk9K3T83FQmM12yqpj0Ic3JnkukDkQHGy5YB1FRxgkBK3wRVjxTL9uJFIDi8akrNs5TwQiFZ3TrS4tir5DjHo48w3nn2M7Wf2dOZBwnA64uw26b+OW7s+tX2y4= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 14:15:38 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Great pyramid... water pump? In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050412163956.02c86970 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050412163956.02c86970 pop.mindspring.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59171 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I was just sent this by a friend. anyone seen it before? http://www.thepump.org/art3subcuttings.html it seems plausible, yet im immediately thinking there is an ou issue here. its essentially pumping water from the surface and back, yes no? with no extra source of energy. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 12 14:29:49 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3CLTe5N001996; Tue, 12 Apr 2005 14:29:41 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3CLTbu7001975; Tue, 12 Apr 2005 14:29:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 14:29:37 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Energy harvesting kites? Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 07:29:28 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050412130220.02bb71c0 pop.mindspring.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050412143300.02bde348@pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050412143300.02bde348 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j3CLTY5N001931 Resent-Message-ID: <0iN3QC.A.ve.B3DXCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59172 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jed Rothwell's message of Tue, 12 Apr 2005 15:08:47 -0400: Hi, [snip] >I did not enumerate the advantages of these energy harvesting kites. > >Actually, they would not be kites at all, but mobile aircraft. They have to be tethered, or they won't harvest energy. Free flying craft don't stand still in the wind without expending energy, not what you want. Craft that move with the wind experience almost no wind at all. There are minor exceptions to this, but the gist remains valid. Of course, they can be free flying when not harvesting energy. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 12 16:12:53 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3CNCe5N002426; Tue, 12 Apr 2005 16:12:40 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3CNCcLR002410; Tue, 12 Apr 2005 16:12:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 16:12:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Energy harvesting kites? Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 19:14:45 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59173 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi All. Pity; I was hoping the tether could be eliminated. Given the 300V/M gradient of the earth, voltages will be >1MV for the heights being suggested for these kites. Now, one could use a shielded cable and ground the shield, fair enough. But what happens when a storm comes through? The typically small ground currents will reach sufficient intensity to burn the cables, not to mention the potential ( no pun intended ) for a lightning strike. An insulating cable w/ microwave downlink might work here, but that 1MV would be hard to insulate, especially when the tether is wet. A tricky problem. Getting rid of the tether would make this system very attractive. K. -----Original Message----- From: Robin van Spaandonk [mailto:rvanspaa bigpond.net.au] Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2005 5:29 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Energy harvesting kites? In reply to Jed Rothwell's message of Tue, 12 Apr 2005 15:08:47 -0400: Hi, [snip] >I did not enumerate the advantages of these energy harvesting kites. > >Actually, they would not be kites at all, but mobile aircraft. They have to be tethered, or they won't harvest energy. Free flying craft don't stand still in the wind without expending energy, not what you want. Craft that move with the wind experience almost no wind at all. There are minor exceptions to this, but the gist remains valid. Of course, they can be free flying when not harvesting energy. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 13 05:50:31 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3DCoHlR011375; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 05:50:17 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3DCoEU5011355; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 05:50:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 05:50:14 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002101c54027$4c1e3f00$e4027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: water into wine Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 07:49:56 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001D_01C53FFD.62C7E370"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-99.2 required=4.0 tests=HTML_30_40,HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59174 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C53FFD.62C7E370 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_001E_01C53FFD.62C7E370" ------=_NextPart_001_001E_01C53FFD.62C7E370 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankJones suggested trying microwaves at the resonant frequency of = water ( 22Ghz) to aim down the hollow shaft. Hmmm. That would take a calibrated tube diameter. We had thought of = installing thin wall tubing inside the hollow shaft coming in from the = top, but surrendered the idea in favor of bringing a tube in from the = bottom of the containment vessel that we would use for feeding O3 + = isotopes and exotics into the base of the vortex instead of the top = through the hollow shaft.=20 The task becomes intriguing in that when a vortex is induced by the high = speed rotating member, the base of the vortex is inverted and the vacuum = in the zone plays an interesting role in that it permits feeding powders = as well as gas/liquid chemicals Richard ------=_NextPart_001_001E_01C53FFD.62C7E370 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Jones suggested trying microwaves at the resonant frequency of = water (=20 22Ghz) to aim down the hollow shaft.
 
Hmmm. That would take a calibrated tube diameter. We had thought of = installing thin wall tubing inside the hollow shaft coming in from the = top, but=20 surrendered the idea in favor of bringing a tube in from the bottom of = the=20 containment vessel that we would use for feeding O3 + = isotopes and=20 exotics into the base of the vortex instead of the top through the = hollow shaft.=20
 
The task becomes intriguing in that when a vortex is induced by the = high=20 speed rotating member, the base of the vortex is inverted and the vacuum = in the=20 zone plays an interesting role in that it permits feeding powders as = well as=20 gas/liquid chemicals
 
Richard
 

 

------=_NextPart_001_001E_01C53FFD.62C7E370-- ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C53FFD.62C7E370 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <001c01c54027$4b94c3b0$e4027841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C53FFD.62C7E370-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 13 07:45:50 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3DEjXlR013897; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 07:45:37 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3DEjVnn013882; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 07:45:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 07:45:31 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050413103652.02c52ae0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 10:45:16 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Energy harvesting kites? In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050412130220.02bb71c0 pop.mindspring.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050412143300.02bde348 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_4387437==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: <6NB9_.A.2YD.LCTXCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59175 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_4387437==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >They have to be tethered, or they won't harvest energy. Free >flying craft don't stand still in the wind without expending >energy, not what you want. I figured. I suppose that when a hawk hovers, it is in an updraft or thermal. Still, I do not understand how to calculate the strength of the tether. It seems to me it must be enough to overcome drag only. The Skypower people are talking about building 20 MW units. Obviously a tether could not withstand the force of wind that creates that much energy! The physics are unclear to me, but the wind energy that goes to spin the turbines does not pull on the tether. So what does? - Jed --=====================_4387437==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

They have to be tethered, or they won't harvest energy. Free
flying craft don't stand still in the wind without expending
energy, not what you want.

I figured. I suppose that when a hawk hovers, it is in an updraft or thermal.

Still, I do not understand how to calculate the strength of the tether. It seems to me it must be enough to overcome drag only. The Skypower people are talking about building 20 MW units. Obviously a tether could not withstand the force of wind that creates that much energy! The physics are unclear to me, but the wind energy that goes to spin the turbines does not pull on the tether. So what does?

- Jed
--=====================_4387437==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 13 07:49:11 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3DEn2lR015121; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 07:49:02 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3DEn0QE015093; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 07:49:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 07:49:00 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: To: Subject: SAIC on Peak Oil Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 10:48:49 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050413144849.MGJI1995.imf16aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59176 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: http://www.energybulletin.net/4638.html "Waiting until world conventional oil production peaks before implementing crash program mitigation leaves the world with a significant liquid fuel deficit for two decades or longer," according to a report prepared for the Department of Energy's National Energy Technology Laboratory (NETL) by Science Applications International Coporation (SAIC). (Well, duh! Can't get anything by these spooks.) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 13 09:21:55 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3DGLflR024959; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 09:21:42 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3DGLZ78024875; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 09:21:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 09:21:35 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050413121546.02c7b008 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 12:21:12 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Uploaded Energy Overview Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_10143515==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: <99rML.A.nEG.McUXCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59177 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_10143515==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I uploaded an Acrobat document with some of the graphs from Lawrence Livermore and NREL. These are very useful. I based most of the recent posting "What if all cars ran on electricity . . . " on these graphs and on the figures in Appendix C (included here). The information in Appendix C is somewhat out of date but it is authoritative. See: http://lenr-canr.org/EnergyOverview.pdf This document is not linked to the menu system at LENR-CANR.org. I am not sure where to put it or whether I will keep it. I upload other miscellaneous stuff from time to time. For example: http://www.lenr-canr.org/PSJ/CatalogAcrobat.pdf This is the catalog for an art exhibit now being held at the Japanese Embassy Culture Center in Washington, DC, in case you are wondering. - Jed --=====================_10143515==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" I uploaded an Acrobat document with some of the graphs from Lawrence Livermore and NREL. These are very useful. I based most of the recent posting "What if all cars ran on electricity . . . " on these graphs and on the figures in Appendix C (included here). The information in Appendix C is somewhat out of date but it is authoritative. See:

http://lenr-canr.org/EnergyOverview.pdf

This document is not linked to the menu system at LENR-CANR.org. I am not sure where to put it or whether I will keep it.

I upload other miscellaneous stuff from time to time. For example:

http://www.lenr-canr.org/PSJ/CatalogAcrobat.pdf

This is the catalog for an art exhibit now being held at the Japanese Embassy Culture Center in Washington, DC, in case you are wondering.

- Jed
--=====================_10143515==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 13 10:29:10 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3DHSnlR007831; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 10:28:49 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3DHSiU1007779; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 10:28:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 10:28:44 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <425D56DE.8080001 pobox.com> Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 13:29:02 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.5) Gecko/20050105 Debian/1.7.5-1 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: What if all cars ran on electricity . . . References: <20050412150613.88537.qmail web81104.mail.yahoo.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050412122446.02c68610@pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050412122446.02c68610 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59178 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > > The cost of collecting data from the meters is only a small percent of > total expenses because meter readers only come around two to four > times a year, as Nagel noted. Your bill is based on your previous > history consumption. I do not see why anyone objects to this. I never objected to that -- I love the system! It saves me money! If all kWh were the same price it would make no difference (nonzero discount rate aside). But they're not -- if you use more electricity in a particular month, you pay less per kWh, at least in New England. (Or anyway you used to -- haven't read the fine print on a bill in a few years.) What that means is that a given amount of electricity, consumed at a constant rate, costs _more_ than the same total amount consumed in a "lumpy" fashion. Well, guess what? If they don't read my meter for a few months, when they finally get around to it there's likely to be a substantial discrepancy -- a big "lump". Result: I get the benefit of a few kWh of cheaper electricity. :-) > Electric power consumption is usually quite predictable. The power > company may overcharge you during some quarters, but it is bound to > undercharge you in others. Occasionally after you have been > overcharged you get a statement saying you own no money, but this > seldom happens to me. > > - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 13 11:04:18 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3DI47lR028033; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 11:04:08 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3DI46T4028018; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 11:04:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 11:04:06 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: What if all cars ran on electricity . . . Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 14:06:09 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <425D56DE.8080001 pobox.com> X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59179 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Stephen. Fair enough, my rate goes down from 16.46 to 16.05 after 250KWH. I should add that although I am using the 16 cents figure, the actual cost is 10.1 cents. the extra 6.5 cents is the markup Con Ed is charging, in addition to a fixed cost of 10.50 for the service. Like I said, they always overestimate because their estimates are based on estimates, not on real per/month usage. What really bothers me is with all this estimating and fudging it becomes impossible to judge fairly what's happening. Such a situation is ripe for fraud; and sadly we have enough of that here in NY to propel Eliot Spitzer to the governorship. Hey, every cloud has a silver lining ( grin ). I was hoping this discussion would prod some other members to post their costs, I'm curious what others are paying for electricity. The last time I looked, the _actual_ cost ( currently 10.1 cents ) was competitive compared to other providers. I could shop around again, although all the markup and fixed costs make it not so promising. We're about to head into summer, and I've upgraded the old AC unit I had to a new high efficiency device. We generally need only one, it sits right next to my desk so I only need to cool one room. Still, I expect to see huge bills as a result. K. -----Original Message----- From: Stephen A. Lawrence [mailto:salaw pobox.com] Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2005 1:29 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: What if all cars ran on electricity . . . Jed Rothwell wrote: > > The cost of collecting data from the meters is only a small percent of > total expenses because meter readers only come around two to four > times a year, as Nagel noted. Your bill is based on your previous > history consumption. I do not see why anyone objects to this. I never objected to that -- I love the system! It saves me money! If all kWh were the same price it would make no difference (nonzero discount rate aside). But they're not -- if you use more electricity in a particular month, you pay less per kWh, at least in New England. (Or anyway you used to -- haven't read the fine print on a bill in a few years.) What that means is that a given amount of electricity, consumed at a constant rate, costs _more_ than the same total amount consumed in a "lumpy" fashion. Well, guess what? If they don't read my meter for a few months, when they finally get around to it there's likely to be a substantial discrepancy -- a big "lump". Result: I get the benefit of a few kWh of cheaper electricity. :-) > Electric power consumption is usually quite predictable. The power > company may overcharge you during some quarters, but it is bound to > undercharge you in others. Occasionally after you have been > overcharged you get a statement saying you own no money, but this > seldom happens to me. > > - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 13 11:12:42 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3DICVlR031799; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 11:12:32 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3DICUHd031784; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 11:12:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 11:12:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-UNTD-OriginStamp: GUNT6dKCgH8aoKLPKyRSHtgtH/Z0sryIV5m9ZfIAa3qZ1GBwpRM3iA== X-Originating-IP: [4.88.34.156] Mime-Version: 1.0 From: "gesrebspar juno.com" Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 18:11:06 GMT To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Energy harvesting kites? X-Mailer: Webmail Version 3.0 Content-Type: text/plain Message-Id: <20050413.111138.364.352208 webmail35.nyc.untd.com> X-ContentStamp: 2:1:1978646401 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59180 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Would not these flying kites cast a shadow up on the Earth depriving us of the suns energy?- Ges- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 13 11:16:46 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3DIGclR000787; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 11:16:38 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3DIGZ29000767; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 11:16:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 11:16:35 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 14:17:58 -0400 From: George Holz Subject: Fw: Energy harvesting kites? To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <001d01c54055$1ef556c0$6501a8c0 geh> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_UfMWIU5nKoldw2OawkY7FA)" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59181 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_UfMWIU5nKoldw2OawkY7FA) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Jed wrote: >Still, I do not understand how to calculate the strength of the tether. It seems to me it must be enough to overcome drag only. The Skypower people are talking about building 20 MW units. Obviously a tether could not withstand the force of wind that creates that much energy! The physics are unclear to me, but the wind energy that goes to spin the turbines does not pull on the tether. So what does? Under steady state conditions no energy is transferred to the tether. I think that the tether force can be estimated from conservation of momentum at the blade surfaces. As the air is deflected by the blade the change in momentum causes both the turning force on the blade and the tether force. The reduced forward momentum of the air results in the tether force. Some of the references you have to tower based wind turbines must calculate the wind loading on the tower due to the baldes. These calculations are essentially what you need to calculate the tether force. > http://www.lenr-canr.org/PSJ/CatalogAcrobat.pdf >This is the catalog for an art exhibit now being held at the Japanese Embassy Culture Center in Washington, DC, in case you are wondering. This art exhibit looks fabulous. Is Junko Ono Rothwell your wife? George Holz Varitronics Systems --Boundary_(ID_UfMWIU5nKoldw2OawkY7FA) Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Jed wrote:

>Still, I do not understand how to calculate the strength of the tether. It seems to me it must be enough to overcome drag only. The Skypower people are talking about building 20 MW units. Obviously a tether could not withstand the force of wind that creates that much energy! The physics are unclear to me, but the wind energy that goes to spin the turbines does not pull on the tether. So what does?
Under steady state conditions no energy is transferred to the tether. I think that the tether force can be estimated
from conservation of momentum at the blade surfaces. As the air is deflected by the blade the change in momentum
causes both the turning force on the blade and the tether force. The reduced forward momentum of the air
results in the tether force.
Some of the references you have to tower based wind turbines must calculate the wind loading on the tower
due to the baldes. These calculations are essentially what you need to calculate the tether force.

> http://www.lenr-canr.org/PSJ/CatalogAcrobat.pdf

>This is the catalog for an art exhibit now being held at the Japanese Embassy Culture Center in Washington, DC, in case you are wondering.

This art exhibit looks fabulous. Is Junko Ono Rothwell your wife?
 
George Holz
Varitronics Systems
--Boundary_(ID_UfMWIU5nKoldw2OawkY7FA)-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 13 11:21:03 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3DIKolR002810; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 11:20:51 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3DIKn7K002793; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 11:20:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 11:20:49 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: To: Subject: Re: RE: What if all cars ran on electricity . . . Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 14:20:40 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050413182041.SCMV1995.imf16aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59182 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: "Keith Nagel" > I was hoping this discussion would prod some other members > to post their costs, I'm curious what others are > paying for electricity. 10.49 cents/kWhr here in the Atlanta surburbs via a cooperative. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 13 11:31:11 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3DIUklR010286; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 11:30:47 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3DIUh2q010256; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 11:30:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 11:30:43 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050413142334.02c80448 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 14:30:20 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Energy harvesting kites? In-Reply-To: <20050413.111138.364.352208 webmail35.nyc.untd.com> References: <20050413.111138.364.352208 webmail35.nyc.untd.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_17890843==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59183 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_17890843==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed gesrebspar juno.com wrote: >Would not these flying kites cast a shadow up on the Earth > depriving us of the suns energy?- Ges- Yes, some light would be reflected back into space, but the effect would be negligible. These machines have very small surfaces overall. See the picture here: http://www.skywindpower.com/ww/index.htm Other human activity has a much larger effect on sunlight and heat absorption. If we were to set up enough solar ground-based collectors to produce all the energy in the world, they would have a far greater surface area, because wind is much more concentrated than sunlight. The total energy in wind is the same as the total energy of sunlight, because all energy converts to heat, and wind is heat -- it is moving molecules of air. But wind is concentrated in some areas and largely absent in others. - Jed --=====================_17890843==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" gesrebspar juno.com wrote:

Would not these flying  kites cast a shadow up on the Earth
 depriving us of the suns energy?- Ges-

Yes, some light would be reflected back into space, but the effect would be negligible. These machines have very small surfaces overall. See the picture here:

http://www.skywindpower.com/ww/index.htm

Other human activity has a much larger effect on sunlight and heat absorption.

If we were to set up enough solar ground-based collectors to produce all the energy in the world, they would have a far greater surface area, because wind is much more concentrated than sunlight. The total energy in wind is the same as the total energy of sunlight, because all energy converts to heat, and wind is heat -- it is moving molecules of air. But wind is concentrated in some areas and largely absent in others.

- Jed
 --=====================_17890843==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 13 11:38:18 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3DIc5lR015384; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 11:38:06 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3DIc49w015362; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 11:38:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 11:38:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050413143238.02be4ec0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 14:37:48 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: RE: What if all cars ran on electricity . . . In-Reply-To: References: <425D56DE.8080001 pobox.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_18338640==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59184 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_18338640==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Keith Nagel wrote: >I was hoping this discussion would prod some other members >to post their costs, I'm curious what others are >paying for electricity. The last time I looked, the >_actual_ cost ( currently 10.1 cents ) This is the kind of thing the EIA provides, based on authoritative industry sources. See: http://www.eia.doe.gov/neic/quickfacts/quickelectric.htm Here is a breakdown of average cost by geographical area and by state: http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/epm/table5_6_a.html It shows that Pennsylvania and Georgia are both cheap. Ha, ha! - Jed --=====================_18338640==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Keith Nagel wrote:

I was hoping this discussion would prod some other members
to post their costs, I'm curious what others are
paying for electricity. The last time I looked, the
_actual_ cost ( currently 10.1 cents )

This is the kind of thing the EIA provides, based on authoritative industry sources. See:

http://www.eia.doe.gov/neic/quickfacts/quickelectric.htm

Here is a breakdown of average cost by geographical area and by state:

http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/epm/table5_6_a.html

It shows that Pennsylvania and Georgia are both cheap. Ha, ha!

- Jed
--=====================_18338640==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 13 11:42:56 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3DIgglR017473; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 11:42:46 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3DIgfwr017451; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 11:42:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 11:42:41 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <425D683C.50204 pobox.com> Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 14:43:08 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.5) Gecko/20050105 Debian/1.7.5-1 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: What if all cars ran on electricity . . . References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59185 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Keith Nagel wrote: >I was hoping this discussion would prod some other members >to post their costs, I'm curious what others are >paying for electricity. > OK, I looked at a recent bill. (This is NSTAR, in the Boston area.) First thing I notice: No mention of any sliding scale for various usage rates. Either they've discontinued that, or it was on the piece of paper that was sent in with the payment, or they just don't talk about it. Second thing I notice is that they list the monthly usage for the last 12 months, and they've got just one reading marked as "estimated". They put in some fancy meters a while back and it looks like they've almost stopped doing any estimating at all. Finally, the breakdown is just a tad complicated. One item is given as a fixed dollar amount; the rest are per kWh: $6.43 -- "customer charge" -- for the privilege of receiving bills, I suppose. Then, per kWh: 0.03959 -- distribution charge 0.02346 -- transition charge (thievery to pay for a merger?) 0.00565 -- transmission charge 0.00050 -- renewable energy (WTF??) 0.00250 -- energy conservation (WTFF??) Then there's one other kWh charge: 0.06868 -- Generation charge, "basic service fixed" Total seems to be about 14.038 cents/kWh, of which less than half is the cost of generating the electricity; the $6.43 is on top of the kWh-based subtotal. I _guess_ "renewable energy" is an item that pays for some contruction/investment in windmills or some such and that they've gotten permission to sock everybody with an extra fee on account of it. I can't imagine what it means that they're charging 0.00250 c/kWh for "conservation". From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 13 11:57:57 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3DIvhlR023891; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 11:57:43 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3DIveqJ023845; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 11:57:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 11:57:40 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050413144544.02c79578 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 14:56:48 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Uploaded Energy Overview In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050413121546.02c7b008 pop.mindspring.com> References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050413121546.02c7b008 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <2CK24D.A.W0F.juWXCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59186 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: By the way, the NREL graphs show convincingly that the most energy-efficient way to use fossil fuel for automobiles would be to convert natural gas to hydrogen and use it in a fuel-cell car. This would be roughly 30% more efficient than burning fossil fuel and using electric cars, which is the second-most efficient technique. These graphs do not cover hybrid automobiles, which had not been developed in 1990. Hybrid cars are tied for second place with electric cars, but in the real world they are much more practical than either fuel cell or pure electric cars. With present technology, only the electric car is ready to run on nearly any kind of fuel, including fission and wind power. As I said before, the emerging consensus is that the best near-term solution would be the "plug-in hybrid," with a larger battery pack than today's hybrid. EPRI recommended this, and so did James Woolsey, of all people. See: http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/05_15/b3928103.htm Funny quote: "EPRI Program Manager Robert Graham is convinced that Toyota already has prototype plug-ins running. Toyota says no. 'We keep looking at the concept, and at some point it might be feasible, but it isn't there yet,' says David Hermance, Toyota's executive engineer for environmental engineering." - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 13 12:03:58 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3DJ3YlR028485; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 12:03:35 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3DJ3W9l028469; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 12:03:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 12:03:32 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050413145749.02c50340 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 15:03:21 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: What if all cars ran on electricity . . . In-Reply-To: <425D683C.50204 pobox.com> References: <425D683C.50204 pobox.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_19873109==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59187 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_19873109==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: >I _guess_ "renewable energy" is an item that pays for some >contruction/investment in windmills or some such and that they've gotten >permission to sock everybody with an extra fee on account of it. Several power companies are starting to offer "green energy," with a surcharge. This is energy from renewable resources. Of course all electricity is actually mixed in together, but their point is that they promise to generate at least enough to cover the consumption of people who have paid the surcharge, and to invest in more wind turbines or what-have-you if more people pay the surcharge. I think it is a good idea. Unfortunately, the only viable green power available in Georgia would be nuclear power, which probably does not count. We have no hydro or wind resources, and not much biomass. I would much rather use nuclear power than coal. - Jed --=====================_19873109==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Stephen A. Lawrence wrote:

I _guess_ "renewable energy" is an item that pays for some contruction/investment in windmills or some such and that they've gotten permission to sock everybody with an extra fee on account of it.

Several power companies are starting to offer "green energy," with a surcharge. This is energy from renewable resources. Of course all electricity is actually mixed in together, but their point is that they promise to generate at least enough to cover the consumption of people who have paid the surcharge, and to invest in more wind turbines or what-have-you if more people pay the surcharge.

I think it is a good idea.

Unfortunately, the only viable green power available in Georgia would be nuclear power, which probably does not count. We have no hydro or wind resources, and not much biomass. I would much rather use nuclear power than coal.

- Jed
--=====================_19873109==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 13 12:17:40 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3DJHKlR002677; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 12:17:21 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3DJHIMr002646; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 12:17:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 12:17:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <425D7051.8040504 pobox.com> Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 15:17:37 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.5) Gecko/20050105 Debian/1.7.5-1 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: More thoughts about kite-generators References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050412104448.02c59c90 pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050412104448.02c59c90 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59188 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > I do not think those gigantic kites would require ultra-strong > tethers. They would not pull on the tether much. Most of the energy of > the wind is dissipated either in lifting the kite or turning the > electric generators. Whoa. You are confusing force with energy. The tether provides a force, which can't be "dissipated"; it provides no energy (from the frame of reference of the ground). The _force_ exerted upward on the kite is presumably balanced by the weight of the kite and the cable. The _force_ dragging the turbine downwind, on the other hand, is balanced only by the cable. If we ignore drag and consider only the useful part of the wind's force, we can get a vague idea of how much force must be required of the ground station. The work done by a packet of air on the turbine (which is where you're getting the energy from) must go as force*distance, but the "force" in question is going to be perpendicular to the direction of the wind, which means that in order to figure out the precise longitudinal force one must know a lot more about aerodynamics than I do :-) However, there's a simple reality check we can apply: Suppose the air is stationary, and the turbine is being dragged along by the cable. Then it's obvious where the energy is coming from: It's coming from the cable, and the generated power must be no larger than F*V where F is the force on the cable and V is the velocity at which the generator is being dragged. Unless you've got some way of cooling the breeze passing over the fans and turning the extracted heat into electricity, there's just no other energy source in the picture. So, to turn that around, the force on the cable must presumably be, at a minimum, the power generated, divided by the wind speed. Note that this minimum value is independent of turbine design or shape of the kite! (Somebody with more time and more facility with the various units involved should be able to come up with some actual figures here.) If you can get the kite up into the jet stream, the force on the cable required to generate a given amount of power should, therefore, be much smaller than the force required as long as it's in the lower altitude, slower breezes! Finally note that the tension in the cable is going to be at a maximum at the kite, where the weight of the cable is added to the force exerted by the ground station. Note also that autogyro analogies are likely to be misleading because the vertically oriented turbine in an autogyro does no work on the plane -- a craft in level flight needs no energy to stay up. All it needs energy for is to overcome drag. > The kites would work like autogyros. (See: > http://www.jefflewis.net/autogyros.html) > > The tether has to overcome drag. If a high-altitude balloon were > tethered to the earth, and it had on-board wind turbines, I think it > would require a very strong and heavy tether. A balloon or airship has > enormous drag. With the kite, drag is low. In other words, the tether > supplies as much force as the motor in the autogyro, and if the wind > produces much more lift than the kite needs to stay in place at a > fixed altitude, the extra energy is converted to electricity and sent > down to the ground. When the wind drops off too much and the kite > begins to fall, power is sent back up to the kite to turn the rotors > and keep it up. > > The New Scientist recently described a scheme to use gigantic kites to > pull freight ships, to augment the diesel engines. Look up SkySails > for more information. 19th-century freight ships carried sails long > after they also had onboard steam engines. Some people nowadays > imagine this was foolish and redundant, but actually it was > economical. Sails and slow steam engines together worked well. Also, > the early marine steam engines were not reliable. If the engine, > paddle wheel or the propeller shaft broke in the middle of the ocean > they needed the sails to get back home. Paddle wheels were too fragile > for ocean-going ships. They were often damaged in storms. > > - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 13 12:24:25 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3DJOFlR006640; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 12:24:15 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3DJOBBZ006618; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 12:24:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 12:24:11 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Re: What if all cars ran on electricity . . . Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 15:24:04 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050413192404.TUZA1995.imf16aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59189 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: Jed Rothwell We have no hydro or wind > resources, and not much biomass. I beg your pardon. I ran the Tallulah George generating plant during the union worker's strike ("we light up your life") in 1981. That plant has six, count 'em, six 12 MW generators that have been pumping electrons since 1908. It was then billed as being capable of taking the city into the next millennium. :-) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 13 12:25:26 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3DJPGlR007099; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 12:25:16 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3DJPEbb007080; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 12:25:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 12:25:14 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <425D7235.4030407 pobox.com> Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 15:25:41 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.5) Gecko/20050105 Debian/1.7.5-1 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: More thoughts about kite-generators References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050412104448.02c59c90 pop.mindspring.com> <20050412151601.91594.qmail@web81104.mail.yahoo.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050412112418.02c6d998@pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050412112418.02c6d998 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59190 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > Jones Beene wrote: > >> > I do not think those gigantic kites would require >> ultra-strong tethers. They would not pull on the >> tether much. >> >> This could not be correct, logically. >> >> IF you were right and the kite "would not pull on the >> tether much" then you don't need a tehter at all!! > Right, and that just proves that the assertion was incorrect. > Good point. It sounds like a boat sailing into the wind. Wrong. A boat can't sail into the wind without a keel, and the tether is providing your keel. A sailboat that can sail directly into the wind, using a turbine and a (wet) propeller, is once again "braced" against the water. In either case, if you view the boat from the frame of reference of the _air_, you see that the energy to push it is coming from the "relatively moving" water. In a 10 mph breeze with a tide going at 10 mph in the same direct a sailboat of _any_ sort is dead in the water. You always need to be able to answer the question "where does the energy come from?", and you need to be able to answer it in every frame of reference, including that of the wind. > At least for the initial designs a tether would probably have many > advantages Yes, like, for example, it works. Take away the tether and you've got no energy source. Again, view it from the point of view of an observer comoving with the wind: Where does the energy come from to push the turbine through the air? Answer: The (relatively moving) tether. > > On the other hand, a tetherless design would be a lot safer for > aircraft in the area. But it's impossible. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 13 12:29:00 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3DJSllR008683; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 12:28:48 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3DJSgeB008577; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 12:28:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 12:28:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Re: What if all cars ran on electricity . . . Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 15:28:29 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050413192829.TYGB1995.imf16aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59191 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > > From: Terry Blanton I ran the Tallulah George generating plant That should read 'Gorge' (fighting images of Tallulah Bankhead and Boy George). From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 13 12:31:17 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3DJV7lR009731; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 12:31:08 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3DJV7Vq009720; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 12:31:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 12:31:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050413152211.02cad9c8 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 15:30:42 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: More thoughts about kite-generators In-Reply-To: <425D7051.8040504 pobox.com> References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050412104448.02c59c90 pop.mindspring.com> <425D7051.8040504 pobox.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_21517328==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: <5yyaTB.A.xXC.6NXXCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59192 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_21517328==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: >Note also that autogyro analogies are likely to be misleading because the >vertically oriented turbine in an autogyro . . . You mean the propeller, right? The propellor is vertical; the unpowered rotor is horizontal. >. . . does no work on the plane -- a craft in level flight needs no energy >to stay up. All it needs energy for is to overcome drag. Well of course it needs energy to stay up! I don't get this statement. The energy needed to stay up comes from the forward motion spinning the unpowered horizontal rotor. Note that the turbines in the skywindpower gadget are horizontal, like autogyro rotors. (They look horizontal to me.) The wind turns them the same way it turns the unpowered horizontal rotor in the autogyro. - Jed --=====================_21517328==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Stephen A. Lawrence wrote:

Note also that autogyro analogies are likely to be misleading because the vertically oriented turbine in an autogyro . . .

You mean the propeller, right? The propellor is vertical; the unpowered rotor is horizontal.


. . . does no work on the plane -- a craft in level flight needs no energy to stay up. All it needs energy for is to overcome drag.

Well of course it needs energy to stay up! I don't get this statement. The energy needed to stay up comes from the forward motion spinning the unpowered horizontal rotor.

Note that the turbines in the skywindpower gadget are horizontal, like autogyro rotors. (They look horizontal to me.) The wind turns them the same way it turns the unpowered horizontal rotor in the autogyro.

- Jed
--=====================_21517328==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 13 12:33:00 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3DJWRlR010212; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 12:32:28 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3DJWO53010193; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 12:32:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 12:32:24 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: What if all cars ran on electricity . . . Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 15:34:31 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050413143238.02be4ec0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59193 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Thanks Jed. It will be informative whiling away eternity in the sulfury pits of hell with ya (grin). Idaho looks like the goto place for buying electricity. After a little fiddling with the coned site, I found my way here. http://www.poweryourway.com/pages/home.html Sadly, of the 2 or so suppliers who had the cojones to post their rates, they were about the same as ConEd. Deregulation will only hurt me until we have a grid sufficient to allow me to buy from places like Idaho. 6 cents would be a good improvement over 10 cents. Things have changed little since I first looked into this after the deregulation, except for the predicted large increases in rates. Gee, that was a surprise... K. -----Original Message----- From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:jedrothwell mindspring.com] Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2005 2:38 PM To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: RE: What if all cars ran on electricity . . . Keith Nagel wrote: I was hoping this discussion would prod some other members to post their costs, I'm curious what others are paying for electricity. The last time I looked, the _actual_ cost ( currently 10.1 cents ) This is the kind of thing the EIA provides, based on authoritative industry sources. See: http://www.eia.doe.gov/neic/quickfacts/quickelectric.htm Here is a breakdown of average cost by geographical area and by state: http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/epm/table5_6_a.html It shows that Pennsylvania and Georgia are both cheap. Ha, ha! - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 13 12:33:13 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3DJWolR010352; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 12:32:50 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3DJWdsK010276; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 12:32:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 12:32:39 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: What if all cars ran on electricity . . . Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 15:34:34 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <425D683C.50204 pobox.com> X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59194 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Stephen writes: ////////// 0.03959 -- distribution charge 0.02346 -- transition charge (thievery to pay for a merger?) 0.00565 -- transmission charge 0.00050 -- renewable energy (WTF??) 0.00250 -- energy conservation (WTFF??) I can't imagine what it means that they're charging 0.00250 c/kWh for "conservation". /////////////// That's the cost they have to add to make up for your using less energy (grin). Hey, at least they put real meters in, now if only they'd charge you spot prices rather than a fixed rate you could actually adjust your usage to save money. K. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 13 13:04:46 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3DK4DlR029001; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 13:04:14 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3DK4BSl028947; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 13:04:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 13:04:11 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050413160026.02c4fe18 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 16:03:39 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Re: What if all cars ran on electricity . . . In-Reply-To: <20050413192404.TUZA1995.imf16aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.b ellsouth.net> References: <20050413192404.TUZA1995.imf16aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_23494328==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59195 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_23494328==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Terry Blanton wrote: > > We have no hydro or wind > > resources, and not much biomass. > >I beg your pardon. I ran the Tallulah George generating plant during the >union worker's strike . . . I should have said additional or untapped hydro. We have few renewable resources that we have not already tapped. Places like Texas and Montana have enough untapped renewable energy to run the whole state -- with plenty of energy left over for export. - Jed --=====================_23494328==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Terry Blanton wrote:

> We have no hydro or wind
> resources, and not much biomass.

I beg your pardon.  I ran the Tallulah George generating plant during the union worker's strike . . .

I should have said additional or untapped hydro. We have few renewable resources that we have not already tapped. Places like Texas and Montana have enough untapped renewable energy to run the whole state -- with plenty of energy left over for export.

- Jed
--=====================_23494328==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 13 13:18:39 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3DKITlR007747; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 13:18:30 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3DKIOhL007709; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 13:18:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 13:18:24 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Re: What if all cars ran on electricity . . . Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 16:18:18 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050413201818.VJKY1995.imf16aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59196 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > > From: Jed Rothwell I should have said additional or untapped hydro. It's a funny story because everyone really believed 72 MW would be all the state needed until the year 2000. Today's generators output 818 MW typically. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 13 13:23:31 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3DKNKlR009922; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 13:23:24 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3DKNJn1009909; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 13:23:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 13:23:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <425D7FCF.1080102 pobox.com> Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 16:23:43 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.5) Gecko/20050105 Debian/1.7.5-1 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: More thoughts about kite-generators References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050412104448.02c59c90 pop.mindspring.com> <425D7051.8040504@pobox.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050413152211.02cad9c8@pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050413152211.02cad9c8 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59197 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote:Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > >> Note also that autogyro analogies are likely to be misleading because >> the vertically oriented turbine in an autogyro . . . > > > You mean the propeller, right? The propellor is vertical; the > unpowered rotor is horizontal. Sorry -- I meant the "propeller" that points almost straight up, and which keeps the thing in the air. I didn't mean the propeller that points forward and keeps it moving. IIW I meant the unpowered rotor, not the powered rotor. Whatever ... they're all turbines, after all. >> . . . does no work on the plane -- a craft in level flight needs no >> energy to stay up. All it needs energy for is to overcome drag. > > > Well of course it needs energy to stay up! I don't get this statement. Technically it does not -- no work is being done on the craft by the vertical forces because the craft is stationary on the vertical axis. Stop the plane and set it on a tower. How much _work_ is the tower doing to hold the plane up? None. Same thing for the air operating on a plane in level flight. But of course, in practice you're correct. Some energy is actually needed, because the _force_ holding up the plane comes from accelerating some amount of air downward. But the _energy_ needed to stay up can still be made very small because no _work_ is being done on the craft by that energy. (Thermodynamics doesn't put a floor under it, AFAIK.) In the context of an electricity generating wind turbine the amount of work done just to keep it up can be ignored -- it can be made completely insignificant compared to the energy the device is converting to electricity. And when you do that, the behavior of all parts of the system is likely to be rather different from the parts of an autogyro, where the undriven rotor freewheels and there's no energy involved except that which is needed to keep it in the air. Go back to your analogy of a soaring bird. The thing you want to think about here is glide angle -- the glide angle of any (unpowered) heavier-than-air object is never zero; such an object always falls. Indeed, that's your point, up above. But by using long wings and a streamlined design one can make the glide angle very shallow, in which case the energy which must be added to the system to keep it up becomes very small. Soaring birds gain that energy in one of two ways: Updrafts (vertical wind shear), for normal soaring, or horizontal wind shear, for dynamic soaring (the latter technique is used by albatrosses over the ocean, where the surface of the ocean is essentially homogeneous and there's no vertical wind shear to speak of). But to the casual observer it may appear that the bird is using no energy at all to remain up, because so little is required. Note that a desire for efficient use of weight and the need to keep the tension on the cable down to something reasonable also dictate that the angle the cable makes with the ground must be as shallow as can be tolerated. At 45 degrees you've got as much vertical force on the cable as horizontal force, and the vertical force doesn't do anybody any good: the wind is only moving horizontally so you can't get work out of it by pulling _down_ on the cable. Note also that the angle in question is at the kite, not at the ground! The angle at the ground will necessarily be substantially shallower than the angle at the kite. > The energy needed to stay up comes from the forward motion spinning > the unpowered horizontal rotor. > > Note that the turbines in the skywindpower gadget are horizontal, like > autogyro rotors. (They look horizontal to me.) The wind turns them the > same way it turns the unpowered horizontal rotor in the autogyro. I might guess that they do that to minimize drag. A turbine works at pretty much any angle, as I understand it, and the angle at which you place it depends on what you're trying to optimize. > > - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 13 13:27:39 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3DKRTlR011576; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 13:27:29 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3DKRMT0011521; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 13:27:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 13:27:22 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <425D80C4.9030900 pobox.com> Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 16:27:48 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.5) Gecko/20050105 Debian/1.7.5-1 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Energy harvesting kites? References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050412130220.02bb71c0 pop.mindspring.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050412143300.02bde348@pop.mindspring.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050413103652.02c52ae0@pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050413103652.02c52ae0 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59198 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > >> They have to be tethered, or they won't harvest energy. Free >> flying craft don't stand still in the wind without expending >> energy, not what you want. > > > I figured. I suppose that when a hawk hovers, it is in an updraft or > thermal. > > Still, I do not understand how to calculate the strength of the > tether. It seems to me it must be enough to overcome drag only. The > Skypower people are talking about building 20 MW units. Obviously a > tether could not withstand the force of wind that creates that much > energy! The physics are unclear to me, but the wind energy that goes > to spin the turbines does not pull on the tether. Yes it does, but you need to disentangle the notions of "energy" and "force". See other posts. Simple mechanics can be used to put a lower bound on cable tension at a given wind speed and power generation rate in the absence of any drag at all. A precise value for the needed cable tension requires substantial knowledge of aerodynamics and rotor and kite design. > So what does? > > - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 13 13:33:56 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3DKXllR014031; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 13:33:47 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3DKXjGT014020; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 13:33:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 13:33:45 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Laddermill Wind Generator Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 16:33:41 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050413203341.VUSF1995.imf16aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: <3CUmuD.A.AbD.pIYXCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59199 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: According to this article: http://tinyurl.com/6n4ty Delft Technical University is actually going to build one! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 13 13:41:51 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3DKfelR016633; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 13:41:41 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3DKfbnA016614; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 13:41:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 13:41:37 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050413163821.02cb9118 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 16:41:22 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Re: What if all cars ran on electricity . . . In-Reply-To: <20050413201818.VJKY1995.imf16aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.b ellsouth.net> References: <20050413201818.VJKY1995.imf16aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_25752890==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59200 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_25752890==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Terry Blanton wrote: >It's a funny story because everyone really believed 72 MW would be all the >state needed until the year 2000. Today's generators output 818 MW typically. And Georgia has 34,601 MW of capacity! They were off by a factor of 480. See: http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/st_profiles/georgia.pdf The size of the energy industry is astounding. - Jed --=====================_25752890==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Terry Blanton wrote:

It's a funny story because everyone really believed 72 MW would be all the state needed until the year 2000.  Today's generators output 818 MW typically.

And Georgia has 34,601 MW of capacity! They were off by a factor of 480. See:

http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/st_profiles/georgia.pdf

The size of the energy industry is astounding.

- Jed
 --=====================_25752890==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 13 13:47:54 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3DKlflR018865; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 13:47:42 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3DKlZ5r018827; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 13:47:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 13:47:35 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <425D857A.8070802 pobox.com> Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 16:47:54 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.5) Gecko/20050105 Debian/1.7.5-1 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Great pyramid... water pump? References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050412163956.02c86970 pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59201 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: leaking pen wrote: >I was just sent this by a friend. anyone seen it before? > >http://www.thepump.org/art3subcuttings.html > >it seems plausible, yet im immediately thinking there is an ou issue >here. its essentially pumping water from the surface and back, yes >no? with no extra source of energy. > > Depends. If they allow, say, 7 tons of water to fall into the well, and use it compress air which is subsequently used to push 2 tons of water up out of the well, the 2 tons can be pushed much higher than the original ground level of the 7 tons that fell in to start with. But then you need to get the extra 5 tons of water out of the basement before you can fire the pump up for another cycle, and there's no mention of a way to do this. Presumably these people are anthropologists, not physicists. Perhaps it didn't occur to them that you can't use gravity to pump all 7 tons up to a greater height than the height at which it started, black magic and ZPE aside. I'm also curious how the Egyptians, working with their dry-laid stones, managed to make sufficiently precise and strong air seals such that they could contain and manipulate air under "extremely high pressure". From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 13 13:50:08 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3DKnolR019787; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 13:49:51 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3DKnnHT019767; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 13:49:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 13:49:49 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050413164342.02be4ec0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 16:49:24 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Laddermill Wind Generator In-Reply-To: <20050413203341.VUSF1995.imf16aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.b ellsouth.net> References: <20050413203341.VUSF1995.imf16aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_26234671==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59202 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_26234671==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Terry Blanton wrote: >According to this article: > >http://tinyurl.com/6n4ty > >Delft Technical University is actually going to build one! Quotes from article: "Strong high altitude winds acting on the "kitewings" produce as upward force on one side of the loop and a downward force on the other, causing it to rotate. The slowly-turning cable drives a power generator in the Laddermill base station. . . . They claim one Laddermill could generate 100 megawatts of electricity, compared with only a few megawatts from a conventional wind turbine." This is the scheme discussed here the other day, shown at: http://alt-e.blogspot.com/2004/12/wind-power-laddermills-high-altitude.html I don't get it. I cannot imagine any material used for the tether would be strong enough to turn a 100 MW generator. Even 1 MW seems out of the question. - Jed --=====================_26234671==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Terry Blanton wrote:

According to this article:

http://tinyurl.com/6n4ty

Delft Technical University is actually going to build one!

Quotes from article:

"Strong high altitude winds acting on the “kitewings” produce as upward force on one side of the loop and a downward force on the other, causing it to rotate.

The slowly-turning cable drives a power generator in the Laddermill base station. . . .

They claim one Laddermill could generate 100 megawatts of electricity, compared with only a few megawatts from a conventional wind turbine."

This is the scheme discussed here the other day, shown at:

http://alt-e.blogspot.com/2004/12/wind-power-laddermills-high-altitude.html

I don't get it. I cannot imagine any material used for the tether would be strong enough to turn a 100 MW generator. Even 1 MW seems out of the question.

- Jed
 --=====================_26234671==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 13 14:16:49 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3DLGalR000580; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 14:16:41 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3DLGaQS000568; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 14:16:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 14:16:36 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000e01c5406e$0edcf8b0$d2027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: Uploaded Energy Overview ( Pastel Exhibit Japan) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 16:16:27 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000A_01C54044.257D7560"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-99.5 required=4.0 tests=HTML_40_50,HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: <3q6rwB.A.0I.zwYXCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59203 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C54044.257D7560 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000B_01C54044.257EFC00" ------=_NextPart_001_000B_01C54044.257EFC00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankJed, Thanks for sharing the link to the Japanese pastel art exhibit. My wife = has taught pastels for some years and presently teaching an ancient art = form " encaustics" a wax-oil mix heated after application. Very good work shown in the exhibit by the Japanese artists.., that can = show us something of their skills, talents and their culture. Thanks again Richard ------=_NextPart_001_000B_01C54044.257EFC00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Jed,
 
Thanks for sharing the link to the Japanese pastel art = exhibit.  My=20 wife has taught pastels for some years and presently teaching an ancient = art=20 form " encaustics" a wax-oil mix heated after application.
 
Very good work shown in the exhibit by the Japanese artists.., that = can=20 show us something of their skills, talents and their culture.
 
Thanks again
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_000B_01C54044.257EFC00-- ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C54044.257D7560 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000901c5406e$0e443b20$d2027841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C54044.257D7560-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 13 14:18:13 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3DLHslR001097; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 14:17:54 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3DLHr7H001082; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 14:17:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 14:17:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Re: Laddermill Wind Generator Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 17:17:47 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050413211747.WZQJ1995.imf16aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59204 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > > From: Jed Rothwell > I don't get it. I cannot imagine any material used for the tether would be > strong enough to turn a 100 MW generator. Even 1 MW seems out of the question. I doubt the materials science people have been consulted for a 100 MW generator. ;-) Here's an article on your Gyromill: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/1248068.stm Also, there's a few extra graphics here on the laddermill: http://www.ecoboot.nl/artikelen/graphics/laddermill_graph.gif http://www.ecoboot.nl/artikelen/graphics/laddermill_bottom.gif http://www.ecoboot.nl/artikelen/graphics/laddermill_top.gif Don't forget, wgumcd! (What goes up . . .) And, you're gonna have to insure the bloody thing. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 13 14:38:16 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3DLc8lR009381; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 14:38:08 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3DLc5Qs009362; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 14:38:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 14:38:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <425D9155.20303 pobox.com> Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 17:38:29 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.5) Gecko/20050105 Debian/1.7.5-1 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Prius hybrids selling at a premium References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050411122109.02be23d0 pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050411122109.02be23d0 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <5voY0D.A.MSC.9EZXCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59205 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > See: > > http://money.cnn.com/2005/04/11/Autos/used_prius/index.htm > > QUOTES: > > Used Prius prices like new > High gas prices, long waits bring used Prius prices above list price > of a new model, study says. > > NEW YORK (CNN/Money) - Demand for the gas-electric hybrid Prius is so > great that some used Priuses are selling for more than the list price > for a new one, a report said on Monday. > > . . . > > The survey said that 8 percent of the consumers considered hybrid > vehicles in March, twice as much as 4 percent in February. It also > said if gas prices reach $3 per gallon 77 percent of car shoppers will > seriously consider a more fuel efficient vehicle. Fabulous! I've been saying for years (mostly to my long-suffering family) that the biggest thing wrong with the way our petroleum policy is run in this country is that there should be a federal gasoline tax which keeps the price per gallon in the $3 to $5 range, at a minimum. We missed our chance to do something like that relatively easily back during the gas crisis in the 70's -- the price should never have been allowed back down. > > . . . > > The 2005 Prius also had the highest owner satisfaction of any 2005 > model, according to an owner survey by /Consumer Reports/ magazine. > > . . . > > A spokesman for Toyota told CNN that the wait time for a new Prius > hybrid is currently about 2 months, down from 6 months last year > because of an increase in production. . . . From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 13 14:40:10 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3DLdxlR010056; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 14:40:00 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3DLdwjP010040; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 14:39:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 14:39:58 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001c01c54071$588b3f50$d0dbb446 VINCE> From: "Vince Cockeram" To: References: <425D56DE.8080001 pobox.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050413143238.02be4ec0@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: What if all cars ran on electricity . . . Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 14:40:00 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0019_01C54036.ABEC02F0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: <_S8ZcC.A.zcC.tGZXCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59206 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C54036.ABEC02F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Keith Nagel wrote: I was hoping this discussion would prod some other members to post their costs, I'm curious what others are paying for electricity. The last time I looked, the _actual_ cost ( currently 10.1 cents ) My Jan. 05 bill is 9.8959 cents per KWH including all taxes and = charges. Vince Cockeram PS; When I moved here in 1988 it was about 4 cents a KWH actual , a big = change from the about 25 cents a KWH LILCO was charging at that time. ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C54036.ABEC02F0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
Keith Nagel = wrote:
I was hoping this discussion would prod some other = members
to post=20 their costs, I'm curious what others are
paying for electricity. = The last=20 time I looked, the
_actual_ cost ( currently 10.1 cents )
 
My Jan. 05 bill is 9.8959 cents per = KWH=20 including all taxes and charges.
 
Vince Cockeram
 
PS;
 When I moved here in 1988 it = was about 4=20 cents a KWH actual , a big change from the about 25 cents a KWH = LILCO was=20 charging at that=20 time.
------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C54036.ABEC02F0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 13 15:04:00 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3DM3nlR021158; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 15:03:51 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3DM3lR1021141; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 15:03:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 15:03:47 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: More thoughts about kite-generators Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 08:03:39 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050412104448.02c59c90 pop.mindspring.com> <425D7051.8040504@pobox.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050413152211.02cad9c8@pop.mindspring.com> <425D7FCF.1080102@pobox.com> In-Reply-To: <425D7FCF.1080102 pobox.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j3DM3ilR021073 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59207 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Stephen A. Lawrence's message of Wed, 13 Apr 2005 16:23:43 -0400: Hi, [snip] >> Note that the turbines in the skywindpower gadget are horizontal, like >> autogyro rotors. (They look horizontal to me.) The wind turns them the >> same way it turns the unpowered horizontal rotor in the autogyro. > >I might guess that they do that to minimize drag. A turbine works at >pretty much any angle, as I understand it, and the angle at which you >place it depends on what you're trying to optimize. [snip] The turbines need to be at an angle, because they perform two functions. One is providing lift, for which they would ideally be horizontal, the other is intercepting wind flow, so that they can tap into the energy, for which they would ideally be vertical. Since they need to perform both functions, they need to compromise. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 13 15:14:57 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3DMEllR026359; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 15:14:48 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3DMEjo6026321; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 15:14:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 15:14:45 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050413181307.02ce6ac0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 18:14:36 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Uploaded Energy Overview ( Pastel Exhibit Japan) In-Reply-To: <000e01c5406e$0edcf8b0$d2027841 xptower> References: <000e01c5406e$0edcf8b0$d2027841 xptower> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_31347546==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59208 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_31347546==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed You wrote: >Thanks for sharing the link to the Japanese pastel art exhibit. Thanks. Frankly, I thought most of the pictures are kitsch, but nobody asked my opinion. The exhibit page, by the way, is here: www.us.emb-japan.go.jp/jicc - Jed --=====================_31347546==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" You wrote:

Thanks for sharing the link to the Japanese pastel art exhibit.

Thanks. Frankly, I thought most of the pictures are kitsch, but nobody asked my opinion. The exhibit page, by the way, is here:

www.us.emb-japan.go.jp/jicc

- Jed
--=====================_31347546==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 13 15:23:13 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3DMN5lR029542; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 15:23:05 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3DMN3Bn029533; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 15:23:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 15:23:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 14:24:41 -0800 To: From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: RE: What if all cars ran on electricity . . . Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59209 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 2:06 PM 4/13/5, Keith Nagel wrote: >I was hoping this discussion would prod some other members >to post their costs, I'm curious what others are >paying for electricity. The last time I looked, the >_actual_ cost ( currently 10.1 cents ) was competitive >compared to other providers. I could shop around >again, although all the markup and fixed costs make >it not so promising. I'm paying 10.88 cents per kWh near Anchorage. However, there is talk in the news here of that cost tripling over the next 10 years as local gas contracts run out and Cook inlet gas declines. Most of our electricity is produced from natural gas. If we don't get a pipeline spur to Ancorage then elecricity will get very expensive here. There is a possibility that up to 10 percent of our electricity will come from a proposed wind farm on Fire island, just off Anchorage in the Cook Inlet, but that may be dependent on the pending choices for gas pipeline routes. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 13 15:23:37 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3DMNQlR029903; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 15:23:27 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3DMNO5r029875; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 15:23:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 15:23:24 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Laddermill Wind Generator Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 08:23:14 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <20050413203341.VUSF1995.imf16aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> <20050413203341.VUSF1995.imf16aec.mail.bellsouth.net@mail.b ellsouth.net> <6.2.0.14.2.20050413164342.02be4ec0@pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050413164342.02be4ec0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j3DMNKlR029668 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59210 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jed Rothwell's message of Wed, 13 Apr 2005 16:49:24 -0400: Hi, [snip] >I don't get it. I cannot imagine any material used for the tether would be >strong enough to turn a 100 MW generator. Even 1 MW seems out of the question. [snip] Because any cable needs to be able to at least support it's own weight, a maximum length can be calculated by dividing the tensile strength of the material by the density. For good steel I get 600000 lb/sq. in. divided by the density of iron (7.87 gm/mL) = 176000 ft. At that length, any extra tension (i.e. an addition "real" load), will break it. Note however that if the cable is going to run at a shallow angle, then this doesn't imply a height of 176000 ft. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 13 15:32:12 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3DMVxlR000747; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 15:32:00 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3DMVvZ6000723; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 15:31:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 15:31:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=vA4fOm8JIhB+56nMkRhualHcfsLZFaAxDikDFdhXQkpUYQYfVa0OdTCevljCUWc8C1/uKqMECIvG1jIVwYAMkBHiMgkuNEpIRWtAXUXvDTIeH8AyrQW+2rcNGLgzMsKqeffhC62cBJ0+BwC9gPlM4gDgt2S5FFBK4iWLJw2QCm4= ; Message-ID: <20050413223149.9458.qmail web30203.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 15:31:49 -0700 (PDT) From: Kyle Mcallister Subject: Re: Prius hybrids selling at a premium To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: 6667 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59211 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- "Stephen A. Lawrence" wrote: > > Fabulous! > > I've been saying for years (mostly to my > long-suffering family) that the > biggest thing wrong with the way our petroleum > policy is run in this > country is that there should be a federal gasoline > tax which keeps the > price per gallon in the $3 to $5 range, at a > minimum. This is the stupidest thing I have heard in a while. Force the gas prices to be that high? How much do you make a year? Have any idea how this will affect the masses out there who make very little a year (while working their asses off for what they get) and barely get by now? If they cannot get to work, they will have no money. If they have no money to spend and do not do a job, that money no longer works with the economy and that job is gone. This is a real good plan to screw things up worse than they already are. If you want to pay that, then go ahead. Not to mention that most people cannot afford a Prius in any case. They are not cheap. What the federal government should do if they really want to cut the consumption of fossil fuels is to put in place a program to produce cheap small hybrids. A Prius does not qualify for cheap. Yes, you might have to leave out a few bullshit luxuries. Sorry folks, you have to get off your duff and crank the windows down and forget the power locks too. No fancy Bose sound systems either. Just a bare-bones cheap hybrid car. If you want to spend the money and upgrade to a better one with the frills, be my guest. But make it a requirement that something be available for those of us who cannot afford all that crap. Truly a "people's car." If I had or could afford a Prius, I would probably get one to save money and know I am doing something good for the environment. I would also destroy the plastic body on it, make my own that doesn't look dog-ugly, and register it as a custom vehicle. But since I cannot afford such things, I will continue to drive V-6's and V-8's which are much more economically feasible to maintain in my income range. --Kyle __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 13 15:51:35 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3DMpMlR007863; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 15:51:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3DMpKpu007843; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 15:51:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 15:51:20 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Laddermill Wind Generator Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 08:51:11 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <20050413203341.VUSF1995.imf16aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> <20050413203341.VUSF1995.imf16aec.mail.bellsouth.net@mail.b ellsouth.net> <6.2.0.14.2.20050413164342.02be4ec0@pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j3DMpFlR007767 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59212 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Robin van Spaandonk's message of Thu, 14 Apr 2005 08:23:14 +1000: Hi, [snip] >Because any cable needs to be able to at least support it's own >weight, a maximum length can be calculated by dividing the tensile >strength of the material by the density. >For good steel I get 600000 lb/sq. in. divided by the density of >iron (7.87 gm/mL) = 176000 ft. At that length, any extra tension >(i.e. an addition "real" load), will break it. [snip] BTW for Kevlar 49, that's 18 million lb/sq. in. / 1.44 gm/mL = 28E6 ft = 5461 miles :). Still not good enough for a space elevator, but plenty strong enough for kite applications. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 13 16:06:15 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3DN5u9I013473; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 16:05:56 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3DN5rce013450; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 16:05:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 16:05:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Laddermill Wind Generator Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 09:05:42 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <20050413203341.VUSF1995.imf16aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> <20050413203341.VUSF1995.imf16aec.mail.bellsouth.net@mail.b ellsouth.net> <6.2.0.14.2.20050413164342.02be4ec0@pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j3DN5m9I013398 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59213 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Robin van Spaandonk's message of Thu, 14 Apr 2005 08:51:11 +1000: Hi, [snip] I wrote: >>iron (7.87 gm/mL) = 176000 ft. At that length, any extra tension >>(i.e. an addition "real" load), will break it. Actually that's wrong. Because of the way in which tensile strength is measured, the force pulling up on the cable can equal the weight of the cable, so even at maximum length, almost any upward force can be maintained, simply by making the cable thicker, until the weight of the cable equals the lifting force. Of course, it's going to be a lot easier on the kite, if the cable is lighter. It would also mean that a better compromise between lift and drag can be used. BTW drag in this case is what is responsible for energy production, so you want it maximised. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 13 16:20:26 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3DNKG9I018096; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 16:20:16 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3DNKBH5018042; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 16:20:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 16:20:11 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Prius hybrids selling at a premium Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 19:22:17 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <20050413223149.9458.qmail web30203.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: <3ejZLB.A.wZE.rkaXCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59214 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Kyle, I think what you need to ask yourself is; is 5$ a gallon gas better or worse than being drafted into military service to take the oil by force? Last figures I read had us at 1 million plus men in service; Rumsfeld ( perhaps the only honest man in the administration ) says now we have _no_ exit strategy in Iraq, only a "victory" strategy. Can't do much more with a volunteer force, and more strife is coming. We're there to stay my friend, and more bodies will be needed to grease the wheels of the juggernaut. You'd be surprised, prices in Europe are about this much and people seem to have adapted. I can appreciate you concern though. With the collapse of the industrial base in America, working class folks like yourself are getting squeezed to the point of extinction. Hey, if it looks like medieval feudalism, well, maybe it is. K. -----Original Message----- From: Kyle Mcallister [mailto:kyle_mcallister yahoo.com] Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2005 6:32 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Prius hybrids selling at a premium --- "Stephen A. Lawrence" wrote: > > Fabulous! > > I've been saying for years (mostly to my > long-suffering family) that the > biggest thing wrong with the way our petroleum > policy is run in this > country is that there should be a federal gasoline > tax which keeps the > price per gallon in the $3 to $5 range, at a > minimum. This is the stupidest thing I have heard in a while. Force the gas prices to be that high? How much do you make a year? Have any idea how this will affect the masses out there who make very little a year (while working their asses off for what they get) and barely get by now? If they cannot get to work, they will have no money. If they have no money to spend and do not do a job, that money no longer works with the economy and that job is gone. This is a real good plan to screw things up worse than they already are. If you want to pay that, then go ahead. Not to mention that most people cannot afford a Prius in any case. They are not cheap. What the federal government should do if they really want to cut the consumption of fossil fuels is to put in place a program to produce cheap small hybrids. A Prius does not qualify for cheap. Yes, you might have to leave out a few bullshit luxuries. Sorry folks, you have to get off your duff and crank the windows down and forget the power locks too. No fancy Bose sound systems either. Just a bare-bones cheap hybrid car. If you want to spend the money and upgrade to a better one with the frills, be my guest. But make it a requirement that something be available for those of us who cannot afford all that crap. Truly a "people's car." If I had or could afford a Prius, I would probably get one to save money and know I am doing something good for the environment. I would also destroy the plastic body on it, make my own that doesn't look dog-ugly, and register it as a custom vehicle. But since I cannot afford such things, I will continue to drive V-6's and V-8's which are much more economically feasible to maintain in my income range. --Kyle __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 13 16:48:03 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3DNkc9I023891; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 16:47:58 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3DNkYYk023862; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 16:46:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 16:46:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <3spcf3$6joq0m mxip04a.cluster1.charter.net> X-Ironport-AV: i="3.92,99,1112587200"; d="scan'208"; a="222062614:sNHT13174240" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.12 (webedge20-101-197-20030912) From: To: CC: Subject: Re: Laddermill Wind Generator Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 23:45:05 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59215 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Robin and Stephen, ... > Actually that's wrong. Because of the way in which tensile > strength is measured, the force pulling up on the cable can equal > the weight of the cable, so even at maximum length, almost any > upward force can be maintained, simply by making the cable > thicker, until the weight of the cable equals the lifting force. > > Of course, it's going to be a lot easier on the kite, if the cable > is lighter. It would also mean that a better compromise between > lift and drag can be used. BTW drag in this case is what is > responsible for energy production, so you want it maximised. > > Regards, > > > Robin van Spaandonk If tensile strength is a real issue (which I suspect it really isn't) but if it was: Another approach might be to strategically place a series of "support lifter wings" that run all the way up the tether to the kite. While wind drag itself would not be eliminated (in fact it would increase, see below) it seems to me that a certain amount of downward tensile stress brought on by the downward pull of gravity would be alleviated by the lifter wings. For example: Every 500 feet a computer controlled support wing calculated to the right square footage might be attached to the tether and repeated all the way up to 15,000 feet. You would need 30 computer controlled support lifter wings to make it all the way up to 15,000 feet. The trick however might be to determine whether there is significant tensile strength savings using this approach as stress may simply be transferred from the downward pull of gravity to the accumulated sideway wind friction the result of the all the attached lifter wings. Another thought that I'll bring up again within Vort is whether it might be economically advantageous to gang up multiple power generator kites on a single tether. When you get up to 14 - 15 thousand feet it might turn out to be useful to stack 2,3, perhaps 5 kites or more on a single tether - perhaps separated every 300 - 500 feet. It seems to me that potential instability introduced by attaching several power kites on a single tether could be controlled by sophisticated computer s/w that carefully monitors the lift-flight characteristics of individual power kites making necessary adjustments every microsecond. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 13 18:57:18 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3E1v9af010659; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 18:57:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3E1v8YE010643; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 18:57:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 18:57:08 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <425DCE09.7000003 pobox.com> Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 21:57:29 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.5) Gecko/20050105 Debian/1.7.5-1 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Prius hybrids selling at a premium References: <20050413223149.9458.qmail web30203.mail.mud.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20050413223149.9458.qmail web30203.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59216 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Kyle Mcallister wrote: >--- "Stephen A. Lawrence" wrote: > > >>Fabulous! >> >>I've been saying for years (mostly to my >>long-suffering family) that the >>biggest thing wrong with the way our petroleum >>policy is run in this >>country is that there should be a federal gasoline >>tax which keeps the >>price per gallon in the $3 to $5 range, at a >>minimum. >> >> > >This is the stupidest thing I have heard in a while. >Force the gas prices to be that high? How much do you >make a year? Have any idea how this will affect the >masses out there who make very little a year > Yeah, it would force them to live like Europeans. (You know, that continent on the other side of the Atlantic where gas prices really were that high and where people didn't burn it like there was no tomorrow, as a result.) But then, they're all so impoverished over in Europe, and they all die so young, don't they? Work themselves to death, those poor folks, really. Oh, whoops, no, they live longer than we do, for the most part, and they don't work as hard as we do, either, despite those high prices for fuel. Tres etrange. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 13 19:10:32 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3E2AMCN016045; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 19:10:23 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3E2ALxg016033; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 19:10:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 19:10:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <425DD127.1020701 pobox.com> Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 22:10:47 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.5) Gecko/20050105 Debian/1.7.5-1 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Laddermill Wind Generator References: <3spcf3$6joq0m mxip04a.cluster1.charter.net> In-Reply-To: <3spcf3$6joq0m mxip04a.cluster1.charter.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j3E2AICN016009 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59217 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: orionworks charter.net wrote: >Hi Robin and Stephen, > >... > > > >>Actually that's wrong. Because of the way in which tensile >>strength is measured, the force pulling up on the cable can equal >>the weight of the cable, so even at maximum length, almost any >>upward force can be maintained, simply by making the cable >>thicker, until the weight of the cable equals the lifting force. >> >>Of course, it's going to be a lot easier on the kite, if the cable >>is lighter. It would also mean that a better compromise between >>lift and drag can be used. BTW drag in this case is what is >>responsible for energy production, so you want it maximised. >> >>Regards, >> >> >>Robin van Spaandonk >> >> > >If tensile strength is a real issue (which I suspect it really isn't) but if it was: > > But it may very well be a very important issue. In particular the strength to weight ratio of the cable may be a paramount concern because of its indirect impact on the _footprint_ of the kite. The problem is that the cable is going to hang in a catenary. If it's at a 45 degree angle at the kite, it's going to be at some much smaller angle relative to the ground. In order to avoid having thousands of feet of cable strung out near the ground before it climbs to some reasonable height, and in order to avoid making the no-fly zone really huge, it may be necessary to put a great deal of tension on the cable unless the material of the cable is very very light, or some other method is used to support the middle of the cable. >Another approach might be to strategically place a series of "support lifter wings" that run all the way up the tether to the kite. While wind drag itself would not be eliminated (in fact it would increase, see below) it seems to me that a certain amount of downward tensile stress brought on by the downward pull of gravity would be alleviated by the lifter wings. For example: Every 500 feet a computer controlled support wing calculated to the right square footage might be attached to the tether and repeated all the way up to 15,000 feet. You would need 30 computer controlled support lifter wings to make it all the way up to 15,000 feet. The trick however might be to determine whether there is significant tensile strength savings using this approach as stress may simply be transferred from the downward pull of gravity to the accumulated sideway wind friction the result of the all the attached lifter wings. > > >Another thought that I'll bring up again within Vort is whether it might be economically advantageous to gang up multiple power generator kites on a single tether. When you get up to 14 - 15 thousand feet it might turn out to be useful to stack 2,3, perhaps 5 kites or more on a single tether - perhaps separated every 300 - 500 feet. It seems to me that potential instability introduced by attaching several power kites on a single tether could be controlled by sophisticated computer s/w that carefully monitors the lift-flight characteristics of individual power kites making necessary adjustments every microsecond. > >Regards, > >Steven Vincent Johnson >www.OrionWorks.com > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 13 19:14:24 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3E2E3CN018192; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 19:14:04 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3E2Dv0A018131; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 19:13:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 19:13:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4077069.1113444831505.JavaMail.root wamui08.slb.atl.earthlink.net> Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 22:13:51 -0400 (GMT-04:00) From: Jed Rothwell Reply-To: Jed Rothwell To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Prius hybrids selling at a premium Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Earthlink Zoo Mail 1.0 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59218 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Kyle Mcallister writes: >> price per gallon in the $3 to $5 range, at a >> minimum. > > This is the stupidest thing I have heard in a while. > Force the gas prices to be that high? How much do you > make a year? Have any idea how this will affect the > masses out there who make very little a year (while . . . You are saying this tax would be regressive: it would hurt poor people more than rich people, because everyone has to drive roughly the same amount. I think this is true. A stiff tax on gasoline would hurt working poor people and the middle class. For that reason, I would recommend that the income tax for people making less than $50,000 per year be reduced by a large factor, enough to offset most of the new gas tax. Two-thirds of the money that comes in from the gasoline tax should be returned to people in the lower brackets. Also, much of the money should be made available as low interest loans to people who need to buy hybrid cars, house insulation, and other energy-saving technology. At present, taking into account Social Security tax, state and local taxes, the U.S. has a kind of flat rate tax system. It is kind of bowed in the middle. Poor people pay around 30%, middle class people around 25%, and rich people 30 to 35%. I would make it 20%, 30% and 40%. Proposals for a flat income tax, or a $5 gasoline tax with no other changes, would both tilt the system heavily against poor people, forcing them to pay a much higher percent of the income than rich people do. > Not to mention that most people cannot afford a Prius > in any case. They are not cheap. Don't they cost $20,000? That's more than my $9,000 Geo Metro, but it is not all that much. It is much cheaper than a $15,000 car over the life of the vehicle, when you factor in the cost of gas. Anyway, as I said, part of the $5 gas tax revenue should be used to make loans to poor people who need new, energy efficient cars. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 13 19:33:08 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3E2WrLG024817; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 19:32:53 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3E2WqC0024807; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 19:32:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 19:32:52 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.1.2.0.1.20050413223051.021a7078 pop.theworld.com> X-Sender: mica pop.theworld.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.2.0 Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 22:32:43 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: CF Colloquium at MIT with Special Tribute to Dr. Eugene Mallove Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <3DW-kC.A.dDG.TZdXCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59219 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: UPCOMING SYMPOSIUM on COLD FUSION at MIT, Cambridge Massachusetts The 2005 Cold Fusion Colloquium " Cold Fusion and other Clean Energy Investigations from the Edge of the Envelope" with Special Tribute to Dr. Eugene Mallove, Cold Fusioneer, Investigator and MIT Graduate General Topics Science and Engineering Discussions of Cold Fusion Material Science, Review of Present literature concerning Cold Fusion Theoretical Understandings of Cold Fusion Cold Fusion Device Engineering Colloquium Schedule: Saturday, 5/21/05, 9 AM to 4 PM Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Cambridge, MA Colloquium Information - More information, program, pre-registration: http://world.std.com/~mica/colloq.html Colloquium Announcement and Updates http://world.std.com/~mica/cft.html From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 13 19:48:09 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3E2luLG029833; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 19:47:57 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3E2lt3R029823; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 19:47:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 19:47:55 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Laddermill Wind Generator Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 12:47:42 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <3spcf3$6joq0m mxip04a.cluster1.charter.net> <425DD127.1020701@pobox.com> In-Reply-To: <425DD127.1020701 pobox.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j3E2lnLG029757 Resent-Message-ID: <1uaA_.A.6RH.bndXCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59220 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Stephen A. Lawrence's message of Wed, 13 Apr 2005 22:10:47 -0400: Hi, [snip] >The problem is that the cable is going to hang in a catenary. If it's >at a 45 degree angle at the kite, it's going to be at some much smaller >angle relative to the ground. In order to avoid having thousands of >feet of cable strung out near the ground before it climbs to some >reasonable height, and in order to avoid making the no-fly zone really >huge, it may be necessary to put a great deal of tension on the cable >unless the material of the cable is very very light, or some other >method is used to support the middle of the cable. > This is another reason to use kevlar, however one also needs to take into consideration that the power wires need to be added to the weight of the cable, so wires as thin as possible should be used, probably aluminium, and the kite should generate the highest voltage possible. In fact an electrostatic generator iso magnetic might be preferable, as these can be very light weight, and are by nature high voltage as opposed to high current. It also means that no transformer need be carried on the kite, which will further reduce the weight. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 13 20:07:24 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3E37GCg002326; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 20:07:17 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3E37FKZ002318; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 20:07:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 20:07:15 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 19:09:02 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: More thoughts about kite-generators Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59221 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 3:17 PM 4/13/5, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: >Suppose the air is >stationary, and the turbine is being dragged along by the cable. Then >it's obvious where the energy is coming from: It's coming from the >cable, and the generated power must be no larger than F*V where F is the >force on the cable and V is the velocity at which the generator is being >dragged. Unless you've got some way of cooling the breeze passing over >the fans and turning the extracted heat into electricity, there's just >no other energy source in the picture. > >So, to turn that around, the force on the cable must presumably be, at a >minimum, the power generated, divided by the wind speed. Yes, I think you are on the right track for getting simple a ballpark estimate of the parameters. The energy E_m carried by a mass m of air at velocity v is E_m = (1/2) m v^2 Given a cross section of area A of air flow covered by a rotor we have an air volume flow rate of A*v and mass flow rate of rho*A*v. We thus, by substitution of mass flow rate for m in the above, have an available power P given by: P = (1/2) (rho*A*v) v^2 = (rho*A/2) v^3 If as you suggest, the wind is operated on over a distance D, we have roughly E = F*D E/t = F*(D/t) = F*(v) P = F*v F = P/v = (rho*A/2) v^2 We thus see roughly that power is proportional to v^3 and resistance is proportional to v^2, which are well known facts. In a "standard atmosphere" (see CRC Handbook) air at altitude 0 has rho = 1.225 kg/m^3 at temperature 288 K, but at 20 km rho = 0.0891 kg/m^2 at 216.6 K. Assume the jet stream is moving at about 200 mi/hr, or about 90 m/s. We would be fantastically lucky to build a rotor with 10 m radius, for A = 314 m^2. This gives: P = (rho*A/2) v^3 = (0.0891 kg/m^3) * ((314 m^2)/2) (90 m/s)^3 P = 10.2 MW F = (10.2 MW)/(90 m/s) = 113,300 N = F = 11,550 kg force = 11.5 metric tons of force So, even at 200 mi/hr jet stream speed, and light 20 km altitude air, we are still looking at about a metric ton of force per megawatt. The assumtion that all the energy can be extracted from the cross section area A is also wildly optimistic. However, the less efficient the rotor at extracting the energy fromthe air flow the less drag it is likely to exert as well, so the ratios are not too so far off, but the energy recovery would likely be worse than this predicts. I think even harder than achieving working windmills of this kind may be keeping track of where the jet stream is moving and getting windmills there in time. It strikes me as far better to build windmills on mountain top ridges in places like Alaska where the wind rose data show fantastic energy densites. The air density is 10 times higher as well. The problem has been overcoming the demanding engineering problems associated with arctic temperatures and ultra high winds, as well as the formidable logistics problems associated with a highly remote mountain environment. Engineering of windmills and arctic lubricants has greatly improved since the 1970's when the State of Alaska last looked into moutntain top windmill citing. Windmills now operate successfully in the antarctic environment. The cold of the arctic environment might also assist in conversion of that energy into storable and transportable form. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 13 22:43:22 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3E5hCCg018633; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 22:43:12 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3E5hBD8018625; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 22:43:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 22:43:11 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: More thoughts about kite-generators Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 15:42:54 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j3E5h5Cg018484 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59222 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Horace Heffner's message of Wed, 13 Apr 2005 19:09:02 -0800: Hi, [snip] > P = (rho*A/2) v^3 = (0.0891 kg/m^3) * ((314 m^2)/2) (90 m/s)^3 > > P = 10.2 MW > > F = (10.2 MW)/(90 m/s) = 113,300 N = > > F = 11,550 kg force = 11.5 metric tons of force > >So, even at 200 mi/hr jet stream speed, and light 20 km altitude air, we >are still looking at about a metric ton of force per megawatt. The >assumtion that all the energy can be extracted from the cross section area >A is also wildly optimistic. However, the less efficient the rotor at >extracting the energy fromthe air flow the less drag it is likely to exert >as well, so the ratios are not too so far off, but the energy recovery >would likely be worse than this predicts. > A Kevlar 49 cord just 1 mm in diameter would be strong enough, not counting the weight of the kite, but you would have 2 cords, and they would only contribute an extra 50 kg each to the weight. The cord would be about 50 km long. An aluminium wire with an area of 1 mm^2 would have a resistance of about 1.3 k ohm over that distance, but would only lose about 1.3% of the transmitted power if carrying 10 A at 1 MV (DC) (2.6% when taking the return wire into consideration). The Al wires would add an extra 270 kg to the weight. This would seem to be feasible, and there is plenty of latitude in the choice of parameters, mostly due to the strength of kevlar 49, however generating 1 MV might be a bit difficult. Lower voltages are going to increase the weight of the conductors, though dropping to 0.5 MV might make a lot of difference in difficulty. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 13 22:54:13 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3E5sACg023829; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 22:54:10 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3E5s5RS023800; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 22:54:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 22:54:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 21:55:54 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Mountainside solar towers Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59223 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In the right locations it should be possible to build solar towers at a very low cost per kW. The right location consists of a south facing mountainside in a sunny location. The mountain almost entirely eliminates the structural support problem, and the south facing mountainside should offer better solar collection than a flat surface. The cross sectional area could affordably be very large. Given that rise would exist in the mountainside solar collector, the base would thus serve a dual purpose as heat collector and rise column, and funnel up to a purely rise column. A steep mountainside should make for less expensive real estate as well. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 13 23:07:16 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3E679HZ028042; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 23:07:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3E678R9028032; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 23:07:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 23:07:08 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 22:03:53 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: More thoughts about kite-generators Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59224 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 3:42 PM 4/14/5, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >A Kevlar 49 cord just 1 mm in diameter would be strong enough, not >counting the weight of the kite, but you would have 2 cords, and >they would only contribute an extra 50 kg each to the weight. The >cord would be about 50 km long. An aluminium wire with an area of >1 mm^2 would have a resistance of about 1.3 k ohm over that >distance, but would only lose about 1.3% of the transmitted power >if carrying 10 A at 1 MV (DC) (2.6% when taking the return wire >into consideration). The Al wires would add an extra 270 kg to the >weight. > >This would seem to be feasible, and there is plenty of latitude in >the choice of parameters, mostly due to the strength of kevlar 49, >however generating 1 MV might be a bit difficult. >Lower voltages are going to increase the weight of the conductors, >though dropping to 0.5 MV might make a lot of difference in >difficulty. Air ionization losses could be prevented by using DC transmission, and encapsulating the wire with woven kevlar impregnated with insulating material, possibly including a thin surface layer of insulation. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 13 23:21:14 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3E6L8HZ031623; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 23:21:08 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3E6L79g031616; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 23:21:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 23:21:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "John Steck" To: Subject: RE: What if all cars ran on electricity . . . Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 01:23:18 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59225 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Chicago... first 400kWh = 0.08275 there after 0.06208 per kWh Natural gas is the cork screw: 0.6817 per therm before taxes and etc... 0.8367 after Pretty sad it's cheaper to run the electric space heater than the 95% efficient gas furnace. Hell, even propane is cheaper... $15-18 to refill a standard 20lb grill tank. Sure would be nice to get a "free energy" device to offset my $200-300 monthly gas bill. Bueller? Bueller? Anyone? -j -----Original Message----- From: Keith Nagel [mailto:knagel gis.net] Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2005 1:06 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: What if all cars ran on electricity . . . Hi Stephen. Fair enough, my rate goes down from 16.46 to 16.05 after 250KWH. I should add that although I am using the 16 cents figure, the actual cost is 10.1 cents. the extra 6.5 cents is the markup Con Ed is charging, in addition to a fixed cost of 10.50 for the service. Like I said, they always overestimate because their estimates are based on estimates, not on real per/month usage. What really bothers me is with all this estimating and fudging it becomes impossible to judge fairly what's happening. Such a situation is ripe for fraud; and sadly we have enough of that here in NY to propel Eliot Spitzer to the governorship. Hey, every cloud has a silver lining ( grin ). I was hoping this discussion would prod some other members to post their costs, I'm curious what others are paying for electricity. The last time I looked, the _actual_ cost ( currently 10.1 cents ) was competitive compared to other providers. I could shop around again, although all the markup and fixed costs make it not so promising. We're about to head into summer, and I've upgraded the old AC unit I had to a new high efficiency device. We generally need only one, it sits right next to my desk so I only need to cool one room. Still, I expect to see huge bills as a result. K. -----Original Message----- From: Stephen A. Lawrence [mailto:salaw pobox.com] Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2005 1:29 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: What if all cars ran on electricity . . . Jed Rothwell wrote: > > The cost of collecting data from the meters is only a small percent of > total expenses because meter readers only come around two to four > times a year, as Nagel noted. Your bill is based on your previous > history consumption. I do not see why anyone objects to this. I never objected to that -- I love the system! It saves me money! If all kWh were the same price it would make no difference (nonzero discount rate aside). But they're not -- if you use more electricity in a particular month, you pay less per kWh, at least in New England. (Or anyway you used to -- haven't read the fine print on a bill in a few years.) What that means is that a given amount of electricity, consumed at a constant rate, costs _more_ than the same total amount consumed in a "lumpy" fashion. Well, guess what? If they don't read my meter for a few months, when they finally get around to it there's likely to be a substantial discrepancy -- a big "lump". Result: I get the benefit of a few kWh of cheaper electricity. :-) > Electric power consumption is usually quite predictable. The power > company may overcharge you during some quarters, but it is bound to > undercharge you in others. Occasionally after you have been > overcharged you get a statement saying you own no money, but this > seldom happens to me. > > - Jed -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.9 - Release Date: 05/04/13 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 13 23:35:22 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3E6ZAHZ003822; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 23:35:15 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3E6Z9XK003807; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 23:35:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 23:35:09 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 22:36:56 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Mountainside solar towers Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59226 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: It seems to me a 1 km hight for a solar tower is a bit excessive. The tower has to be insulated to be effective, otherwise the air density returns to that outside outside the tower and no additional bouyancy is achieved. The tower runs on the bouyancy of hot air. Also, a minor point, but air does get thinner as the tower gets higher, so there are diminishing returns with height. The density is about 10 percent lighter at 1 km than at sea level. It might be more effective to build a lower altitude but better insulated tower. It may also be effective to use a shorter insulated tower but "amplify" the stored heat using heat pumps or auxiliary energy of some kind. If the heat pumps are located inside the base of the tower none of the waste heat for doing so would actually be wasted, except that which is lost due to the inefficiency of the tower itself. Heat pumps, oddly enough, exhibit a COP greater than 1. In appropriate areas a solar tower might be coupled with a wind farm which merely feeds energy in the form of heat into the tower. This would avoid the need for complex circuitry to manage the power from each windmill and get it onto the grid, and help keep the solar tower runnning at night and on dark days. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 14 03:56:09 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3EAu4vQ027391; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 03:56:04 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3EAu26f027382; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 03:56:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 03:56:02 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <5.1.1.6.1.20050414113309.0214f1c0 pop3.newnet.co.uk> X-Sender: lawrence pop3.newnet.co.uk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1.1 Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 11:48:19 +0100 To: "vortex-l eskimo.com" From: "Stephen R. Lawrence" Subject: Gas Tax Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59227 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The way I see it is this: if there is no high gas tax, demand continues to grow which increases gas prices anyway--the price increase ends up going to the refiners and the people owning the oil wells. If there is a high gas tax, demand is reduced (well, hopefully) and the money goes to government, state/federal, which can use it to provide...energy saving techniques, mass transport, rail ticket rebates, rebates on fuel duty for those living far out in the country, home insulation, etc etc. The whole argument fails unless govt uses the tax revenue in a sensible way. Of course one of the main differences between Europe and US is the population density, which is about 10 times greater here (certainly in the UK) than in the US. So people's commutes are much shorter. One thing the global economy seems to be doing at present is encouraging migration into economically active regions, eg, into the South-East (in the UK), into Europe/US from less well developed nations, and into big cities within the developing nations (Bombay/Mumbai, Mexico City, etc etc ). It seems to be difficult for regional or rural economies to develop and this is putting more pressure on tranport demand, for goods and people. And in households, both spouses are now often working, and/or families are splitting up. Very difficult for two people to be able to live close to where they work. Maybe higher transport costs will change all this, but at the moment I don't quite see the mechanism. From: Stephen R. Lawrence, 8 Supanee Court, French's Road, Cambridge, England, CB4 3LB. Tel/Fax +44 1223 564373 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 14 04:47:46 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3EBldvQ010385; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 04:47:39 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3EBlcPI010376; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 04:47:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 04:47:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 06:46:58 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: two interesting books. Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59228 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: two interesting books.
I'm finishing writing a response to the exchange that Jed and Ed and I have been having on the OT thread, if I were pope.

 At the same time I was listening to Steven Quayle, www.stevequayle.com , being interviewed on C to C AM. His new book, Lucifer's Luggage is about suitcase nukes. He also mentioned red mercury and a mini nuke. This softball sized unit is said to yield 2 K tons, and would be perfect for the terrorist who truly desires to go to palace with 72 dark eyed virgins.

Then there is the new book by Michael Weiner, PhD, epidemiology, Liberalism is a Mental Disorder. Michael's stage name is Michael Savage of the Savage Nation, www.michaelsavage.com

I'm mentioning these two books because the author's agree with me on many issues. I'm posting this seprate because I know that some of you won't read the 33 K exchange. The two books dovetail well with my beliefs.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 14 04:50:14 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3EBo7vQ011436; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 04:50:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3EBo4wO011389; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 04:50:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 04:50:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 03:51:53 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Mountainside solar towers Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59229 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In the right locations it should be possible to build solar towers at a very low cost per kW. The right location consists of a south facing mountainside in a sunny location. The mountain almost entirely eliminates the structural support problem, and the south facing mountainside should offer better solar collection than a flat surface. The cross sectional area could affordably be very large. Given that rise would exist in the mountainside solar collector, the base would thus serve a dual purpose as heat collector and rise column, and funnel up to a purely rise column. A steep mountainside should make for less expensive real estate as well. The above applies to the northern temperate zone. In the southern temperate zone a north facing mountainside would be the right location. In an equatorial zone multiple faces might be used for solar collectors, possibly with rise columns located on multiple sides of a mountain. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 14 05:04:16 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3EC47vQ018370; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 05:04:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3EC42tX018346; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 05:04:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 05:04:02 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 04:05:51 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: two interesting books. Resent-Message-ID: <4sXWXC.A.meE.ywlXCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59230 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Please turn off your HTML. At 6:46 AM 4/14/5, thomas malloy wrote: > >two interesting books. >
I'm finishing >writing a response to the exchange that Jed and Ed and I have been >having on the OT thread, if I were pope.
>
color="#000000">
>
 At the >same time I was listening to Steven Quayle, www.stevequayle.com , >being interviewed on C to C AM. His new book, Lucifer's Luggage >is about suitcase nukes. He also mentioned red mercury and a mini >nuke. This softball sized unit is said to yield 2 K tons, and would be >perfect for the terrorist who truly desires to go to palace with 72 >dark eyed virgins.
>
color="#000000">
>
Then there is >the new book by Michael Weiner, PhD, epidemiology, Liberalism is a >Mental Disorder. Michael's stage name is Michael Savage of the Savage >Nation, www.michaelsavage.com
>
color="#000000">
>
I'm mentioning >these two books because the author's agree with me on many >issues. I'm posting this seprate because I know that some of >you won't read the 33 K exchange. The two books dovetail well with my >beliefs.
>
color="#000000">
> > Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 14 05:30:42 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3ECUXvQ000497; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 05:30:34 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3ECUWCo000464; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 05:30:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 05:30:32 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000d01c540ed$bc83aca0$d7027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: References: Subject: Re: Mountainside solar towers Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 07:30:25 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-100.0 required=4.0 tests=USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59231 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace, Sensible , moreso than the "solar tower" at 3500ft tall. Combine the idea with several " inclined" updraft tubes along the face of the mountainside for wind turbines and you have a winner. Richard ----- Original Message ----- From: "Horace Heffner" To: Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2005 6:51 AM Subject: Re: Mountainside solar towers > In the right locations it should be possible to build solar towers at a > very low cost per kW. The right location consists of a south facing > mountainside in a sunny location. The mountain almost entirely eliminates > the structural support problem, and the south facing mountainside should > offer better solar collection than a flat surface. The cross sectional > area could affordably be very large. Given that rise would exist in the > mountainside solar collector, the base would thus serve a dual purpose as > heat collector and rise column, and funnel up to a purely rise column. A > steep mountainside should make for less expensive real estate as well. > > The above applies to the northern temperate zone. In the southern > temperate zone a north facing mountainside would be the right location. > In > an equatorial zone multiple faces might be used for solar collectors, > possibly with rise columns located on multiple sides of a mountain. > > Regards, > > Horace Heffner > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 14 06:14:09 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3EDE0vQ022330; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 06:14:01 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3EDDwv8022301; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 06:13:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 06:13:58 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001c01c540f3$cef63640$d7027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: Mountainside solar towers Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 08:13:52 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0018_01C540C9.E55F9D60" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-99.5 required=4.0 tests=HTML_20_30,HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59232 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C540C9.E55F9D60 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0019_01C540C9.E55F9D60" ------=_NextPart_001_0019_01C540C9.E55F9D60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankAdding to Horace's thread, the draft tubes could be simple 36 ft = diameter corrogated drainage culvert mounted on the incline in length = sections as long as the incline. A converging cone of less than 15 degrees with a cone shaped prop = configuration positioned in the converging cone that adjusts ( necessary for proper speed efficency) outward from the = convergence would drive the generator. Interesting effects could be = developed by use of a diverging cone of not greater that 7 1/2 degrees = in that it would provide the ideal " Gibson formula" venturi throat. = Placing small parabolic segments near the converging cone would induce = a vortex that would continue through the inclined draft tube and = discharge out the diverging cone. Adding moisture ( steam) into the = inlet would increase the flow via differential temperatures May make a = weathermaker on the leeward side of the mountain. Be cheaper than = building a 3500ft solar tower. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0019_01C540C9.E55F9D60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Adding to Horace's thread, the draft tubes could be simple 36 ft = diameter=20 corrogated drainage culvert mounted on the incline in length sections as = long as=20 the incline.
 
A converging cone of less than 15 degrees with a cone shaped prop=20 configuration positioned in the converging cone that
 adjusts ( necessary for proper speed = efficency) outward=20 from the convergence would drive the  generator. Interesting = effects could=20 be developed by use of a diverging cone of not greater that 7 1/2 = degrees in=20 that it would provide the ideal " Gibson formula" venturi throat. = Placing =20 small parabolic segments near the converging cone would induce a vortex = that=20 would continue through the inclined draft tube and discharge out the = diverging=20 cone. Adding moisture ( steam) into the inlet would increase the = flow via=20 differential temperatures  May make a weathermaker on the leeward = side of=20 the mountain. Be cheaper than building a 3500ft solar tower.

Richard

------=_NextPart_001_0019_01C540C9.E55F9D60-- ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C540C9.E55F9D60 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <001701c540f3$ce2e0440$d7027841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C540C9.E55F9D60-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 14 06:33:11 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3EDX0vQ031518; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 06:33:05 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3EDWxgd031502; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 06:32:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 06:32:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002701c540f6$76bc1fa0$d7027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: Gas tax Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 08:32:12 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0023_01C540CC.74BBADD0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-99.5 required=4.0 tests=HTML_20_30,HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: <078QcD.A.KsH.KEnXCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59233 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0023_01C540CC.74BBADD0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0024_01C540CC.74BBADD0" ------=_NextPart_001_0024_01C540CC.74BBADD0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankStephen Lawrence suggestion on gas tax presupposes integrity in = government which cannot exist because the political animal cannot be = tamed or constricted by money. Money unleashes the beast. The beast must = be starved. Last year a seemingly nebulous bill passed as an " adder" to some law. = The wording simply stated some feel good need for " jobs creation". = Buried deep in the understanding of this adder permitted the IRS to " = farm out" collections of past due taxes to private collectors. Enter a new realm of " privatizing". Law firms are opening offices in = Washington in droves to get some of this " easy money" Supposedly there are 9 billion dollars in " low hanging fruit" to be = plucked off the money tree for an estimated cost of collection of 1 = billion. Why? You say, doesn't the IRS spend the 1 billion to collect = the 9?. Well , it seems there is more like an estimated 350 billion in potential = taxes that can be " wrung out" of the system using the proper scare = tactics. Remember one is guilty till proven innocent in tax court. Add to this, the transfer of confidential records from IRS files to " = law firms" and the ingredients for a "witches brew" are ready for the = kettle. The entire process can be "offshored" to India. The collection " agent" get a percentage of the take as an inducement. = in other words, a protection racket. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0024_01C540CC.74BBADD0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Stephen Lawrence suggestion on gas tax presupposes integrity in = government=20 which cannot exist because the political animal cannot be tamed or = constricted=20 by money. Money unleashes the beast. The beast must be starved.
 
Last year a seemingly nebulous bill passed as an " adder" to some = law. The=20 wording simply stated some feel good need for " jobs creation". Buried = deep in=20 the understanding of this adder permitted the IRS to " farm out" = collections of=20 past due taxes to private collectors.
 
Enter a new realm of " privatizing". Law firms are opening offices = in=20 Washington in droves to get some of this " easy money"
Supposedly there are 9 billion dollars in " low hanging fruit" to = be=20 plucked off the money tree for an estimated cost of collection of 1 = billion.=20 Why? You say, doesn't the IRS spend the 1 billion to collect the = 9?.
 
Well , it seems there is more like an estimated 350 billion in = potential=20 taxes that can be " wrung out" of the system using the proper scare = tactics.=20 Remember one is guilty till proven innocent in tax court.
 
Add to this, the transfer of confidential records from IRS files to = " law=20 firms" and the ingredients for a "witches brew" are ready for the = kettle. The=20 entire process can be "offshored" to India.
 
The collection " agent" get a percentage of the take as an = inducement. in=20 other words, a protection racket.
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_0024_01C540CC.74BBADD0-- ------=_NextPart_000_0023_01C540CC.74BBADD0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <002201c540f6$5d8ea890$d7027841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0023_01C540CC.74BBADD0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 14 06:47:33 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3EDlOvQ005923; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 06:47:24 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3EDlMLb005893; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 06:47:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 06:47:22 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: <21651d17-8ca6-4128-8596-4b94cae09802> Message-ID: <026701c540f8$7274c710$ba59ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050412163956.02c86970 pop.mindspring.com> <425D857A.8070802@pobox.com> Subject: Re: Great pyramid... water pump? Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 09:42:27 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59234 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The pyramids at Giza werre built from limestone concrete, using a soft limestone quarried at the south face of the plateau. The limestone is permeated with kaolinitic clay which disperses when soaked in water, changing the stone to a mud of limestone particles. When mixed with a strongly basic solution, the kaolinite converts to a silica-based binder which slowly cures. The mixture of the limestone particles and the activated binder forms limestone concrete which has the same macroscopic properties as native limestone, which has led generations of scholars to believe that the stones are hewed native limestone. Assuming hewed native limestone has misled scholars into fantastic scenarios of tens of thousands of slaves forced into building the Khufu, the great pyramid, in 23 years. That scenario, widely publicized, does not withstand close inspection. The alternative, outlined above, leads to a construction process requiring only a few thousand workers with a credible work schedule. Recent excavations south of the Giza plateau disclose a city of about 20,000 well fed and housed workers who constituted the workforce, including many support workers beyond the few thousand who actually did the digging, carrying, pouring, etc. More details can be found at www.margaretmorrisbooks.com. The first of two volumes of her book "The Pyramid Mystery is Solved" is in print. The second volume is in preparation, which contains a chapter by yours truly on a hypothetical construction process that fits known facts and answers previous objections to the concrete hypothesis. Research by a Distinguished Professor in material science has shown that samples of rock from the Giza plateau are indeed synthetic. His paper is being submitted to a senior scientific publication. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 14 07:26:05 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3EEPsvQ029703; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 07:25:55 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3EEPrZt029694; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 07:25:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 07:25:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050414152646.006a6cd0 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 15:26:46 +0000 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: ...water into wine... Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j3EEPpvQ029671 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59235 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Having discovered the connection between water and the speed of light I felt it might be valuable to have another look at the three vapour pressure power relations. (see http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/water/strange.html#tv ) In the first post of the ...upon the clouds of heaven... thread (Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 10:05:59) I pointed out that the three powers, 4, 8 and 12, could be dissected into a "common factor and the 'la difference'", viz. VP £ [4]^n where the GBP sign represents proportionality; n represents the dimensionality (i.e. 1, 2 or 3) Rather than using vapour pressure, the external kinetic energy, as the LHS variable it is more revealing to use its reciprocal, E, the internal strain energy, which gives us E £ [-4]^(-n) And in view of the connection between light speed and water it is not difficult to see the E £ {-4} bit of these three equations represents the inverse of a black body, viz a white body or a perfect absorber. Think of light as entering in the chunks of vapour and being totally internally reflected in a kind of three dimensional vortex to form the clusters Chaplin illustrates on his website. Presumably these are the structures that store the strain energy, the inner cores in compression and the outer sheaths in tension. Now I don't suppose that water vapour chunks are the only white bodies. I believe that Jones's epos (or my materons) are also white bodies which absorb radiant energy. I believe that this, not quanta, is the solution to the problem of the violet catastrophe. I almost feel sorry for Quetzalcoatl - but not quite. I shall get great pleasure from watching him and his diabolical acolytes squirm. 8-) Cheers Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 14 07:42:27 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3EEgCvQ010941; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 07:42:12 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3EEg9gK010913; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 07:42:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 07:42:09 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050414103629.02b760d0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 10:41:53 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Prius hybrids selling at a premium In-Reply-To: <4077069.1113444831505.JavaMail.root wamui08.slb.atl.earthl ink.net> References: <4077069.1113444831505.JavaMail.root wamui08.slb.atl.earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59236 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I wrote: >At present, taking into account Social Security tax, state and local >taxes, the U.S. has a kind of flat rate tax system. It is kind of bowed in >the middle. Poor people pay around 30%, middle class people around 25%, >and rich people 30 to 35%. These percentages are much too high. I should not try to quote these things off the top of my head. Here are the corrected figures as reported in the New York Times a few years ago. Income group, Average pretax income, Total government tax receipts, As a percentage of income Bottom 20%, $7,946, $1449, 18% Second 20%, $20,319, $2847, 14% Middle 20%, $35,536, $5,622, 16% Fourth 20%, $56,891, $9,835, 17% Top 20%, $116,666, $21,623, 19% Sources: Consumer Expenditure Survey of the Bureau Of Labor Statistics; R.J. Reynolds Tobacco; Beer Institute; Wine America; Wine and Spirits Wholesalers of America; American Petroleum Institute; Tax Foundation Conclusion: "Taking all types of government taxes into consideration, the tax burden, as a percentage of pretax income, is roughly the same for all income groups." The income tax is progressive, but all other taxes are regressive, so a flat income tax would result in highly regressive overall taxes. Actually, these figures are out of date. Taking into account recent cuts in capital gains, high bracket income taxes and inheritance tax we may already have a regressive system. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 14 07:55:43 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3EEtYvQ015373; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 07:55:34 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3EEtWEW015359; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 07:55:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 07:55:32 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050414104440.02b75bb0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 10:54:53 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Gas tax / Unitarian Jihad In-Reply-To: <002701c540f6$76bc1fa0$d7027841 xptower> References: <002701c540f6$76bc1fa0$d7027841 xptower> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59237 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: RC Macaulay wrote: >Stephen Lawrence suggestion on gas tax presupposes integrity in government >which cannot exist because the political animal cannot be tamed or >constricted by money. Money unleashes the beast. The beast must be starved. Which beast do you mean? Saudi Arabia or the U.S. Federal Government? If we are going to spend hundreds of billions of dollars on gasoline I would prefer to see the windfall go to the Federal government than to people who establish thousands of schools to train children to hate us and conduct jihad against us. Speaking of jihads, here is the first report of yet another terrorist group calling itself the Unitarian Jihad: http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2005/04/08/DDG27BCFLG1.DTL Quotes: "Greetings to the Imprisoned Citizens of the United States. We are Unitarian Jihad. There is only God, unless there is more than one God. The vote of our God subcommittee is 10-8 in favor of one God, with two abstentions. . . . We are Unitarian Jihad, and our motto is: 'Sincerity is not enough.' We have heard from enough sincere people to last a lifetime already. Just because you believe it's true doesn't make it true. Just because your motives are pure doesn't mean you are not doing harm. . . . People of the United States! We are Unitarian Jihad! We can strike without warning. Pockets of reasonableness and harmony will appear as if from nowhere! Nice people will run the government again! There will be coffee and cookies in the Gandhi Room after the revolution." How much more can we take? Where will it all end?!? - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 14 08:19:20 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3EFJAvQ024292; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 08:19:10 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3EFJ7rY024262; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 08:19:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 08:19:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=WzddDHYB41Yi+fG6LwWu4xGPVU/HPbMrkjrt5DKR1ILYUClKFrFeUyZpZacP5j/G5McAbexDsoX0Poa+eziDDeFDDkpEuIqYRKm/JIvyokvWXoRT7IBCwxryY8C/ov4XlAxTpv6UQOCBwUTN3gNmBlY5luhPP88YgNWl/31x1uo= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 08:19:04 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Gas tax / Unitarian Jihad In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050414104440.02b75bb0 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <002701c540f6$76bc1fa0$d7027841 xptower> <6.2.0.14.2.20050414104440.02b75bb0 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j3EFJ4vQ024228 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59238 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: hey, your speaking to the katana of reasoned discussion here. hehehe On 4/14/05, Jed Rothwell wrote: > RC Macaulay wrote: > > >Stephen Lawrence suggestion on gas tax presupposes integrity in government > >which cannot exist because the political animal cannot be tamed or > >constricted by money. Money unleashes the beast. The beast must be starved. > > Which beast do you mean? Saudi Arabia or the U.S. Federal Government? If we > are going to spend hundreds of billions of dollars on gasoline I would > prefer to see the windfall go to the Federal government than to people who > establish thousands of schools to train children to hate us and conduct > jihad against us. > > Speaking of jihads, here is the first report of yet another terrorist group > calling itself the Unitarian Jihad: > > http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2005/04/08/DDG27BCFLG1.DTL > > Quotes: > > "Greetings to the Imprisoned Citizens of the United States. We are > Unitarian Jihad. There is only God, unless there is more than one God. The > vote of our God subcommittee is 10-8 in favor of one God, with two > abstentions. . . . > > We are Unitarian Jihad, and our motto is: 'Sincerity is not enough.' We > have heard from enough sincere people to last a lifetime already. Just > because you believe it's true doesn't make it true. Just because your > motives are pure doesn't mean you are not doing harm. . . . > > People of the United States! We are Unitarian Jihad! We can strike without > warning. Pockets of reasonableness and harmony will appear as if from > nowhere! Nice people will run the government again! There will be coffee > and cookies in the Gandhi Room after the revolution." > > How much more can we take? Where will it all end?!? > > - Jed > > -- "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 14 08:22:48 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3EFMcvQ025714; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 08:22:38 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3EFMaHx025695; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 08:22:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 08:22:36 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050414111245.02b754c0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 11:22:23 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Laddermill Wind Generator In-Reply-To: References: <3spcf3$6joq0m mxip04a.cluster1.charter.net> <425DD127.1020701 pobox.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_3253765==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59239 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_3253765==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >This is another reason to use kevlar, however one also needs to >take into consideration that the power wires need to be added to >the weight of the cable . . . We have confused two different devices in this discussion. The power cable would be needed with the Skywindpower kites, which remain high in the sky. The Laddermill devices would transmit power mechanically by turning a large wheel. It would have to be extremely large I suppose, perhaps a kilometer in diameter (maybe 10 km?), so that the Kevlar tether could exert enough leverage to drive a 100 MW wheel without breaking. The people making the plans claim that these kites will be perfectly safe if they fall. They will drift down out of the sky. Perhaps these people people have overlooked the effect of a 2 inch steel cable falling out of the sky, or several tons of Kevlar. The whole scheme is as improbable as Superman comic book. - Jed --=====================_3253765==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

This is another reason to use kevlar, however one also needs to
take into consideration that the power wires need to be added to
the weight of the cable . . .

We have confused two different devices in this discussion. The power cable would be needed with the Skywindpower kites, which remain high in the sky. The Laddermill devices would transmit power mechanically by turning a large wheel. It would have to be extremely large I suppose, perhaps a kilometer in diameter (maybe 10 km?), so that the Kevlar tether could exert enough leverage to drive a 100 MW wheel without breaking. The people making the plans claim that these kites will be perfectly safe if they fall. They will drift down out of the sky. Perhaps these people people have overlooked the effect of a 2 inch steel cable falling out of the sky, or several tons of Kevlar.

The whole scheme is as improbable as Superman comic book.

- Jed
--=====================_3253765==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 14 08:33:36 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3EFXSvQ006324; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 08:33:28 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3EFXREi006288; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 08:33:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 08:33:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050414112909.02b74fa0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 11:33:19 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Laddermill Wind Generator In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050414111245.02b754c0 pop.mindspring.com> References: <3spcf3$6joq0m mxip04a.cluster1.charter.net> <425DD127.1020701 pobox.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050414111245.02b754c0 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_3908546==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59240 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_3908546==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I wrote: >It would have to be extremely large I suppose, perhaps a kilometer in >diameter (maybe 10 km?), so that the Kevlar tether could exert enough >leverage to drive a 100 MW wheel without breaking. I mean a whole bunch of tethers. Obviously leverage does not increase power. I was trying to imagine a scheme that would allow steel or Kevlar tethers to exert this much force, and I imagined a giant wheel with hundreds of cables. I guess you could loop them around 100 separate drive wheels instead of one great big one. - Jed --=====================_3908546==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" I wrote:

It would have to be extremely large I suppose, perhaps a kilometer in diameter (maybe 10 km?), so that the Kevlar tether could exert enough leverage to drive a 100 MW wheel without breaking.

I mean a whole bunch of tethers. Obviously leverage does not increase power. I was trying to imagine a scheme that would allow steel or Kevlar tethers to exert this much force, and I imagined a giant wheel with hundreds of cables. I guess you could loop them around 100 separate drive wheels instead of one great big one.

- Jed
--=====================_3908546==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 14 08:47:05 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3EFkvvQ011635; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 08:46:57 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3EFktod011621; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 08:46:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 08:46:55 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050414164745.00699e2c pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 16:47:45 +0000 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Gas tax / Unitarian Jihad Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59241 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 08:19 am 14-04-05 -0700, you wrote: >hey, your speaking to the katana of reasoned discussion here. > >hehehe Since I had no idea what "katana" meant I thought I would give the definition for any other Vorts who are equally orientally challenged. ;-) ----------------------------------------------------------- A slightly curved sword, with its convex edge sharpened, used since the Ashikaga period (1333-1474). It was one of the weapons used by the Bushi class, especially the Samurai, which used it together with a shorter sword called Wakizashi. The Katana has been endowed with a sacred element, since it comes from the work store of a member of the Shintoist priesthood. The two swords together are called Daisho (long and short), and were used by Samurai of all the ranks. ----------------------------------------------------------- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 14 09:02:01 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3EG1rvQ018624; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 09:01:53 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3EG1pqV018603; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 09:01:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 09:01:51 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Gas tax / Unitarian Jihad Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 12:01:44 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050414160144.OOEO2468.imf23aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59242 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > > From: Grimer > Since I had no idea what "katana" meant I thought I would > give the definition for any other Vorts who are equally > orientally challenged. ;-) Not if they saw "Kill Bill Vol. I". From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 14 09:14:20 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3EGDrvQ024510; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 09:13:54 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3EGDSd4024160; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 09:13:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 09:13:28 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050414120938.02b75a68 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 12:12:52 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Gas tax / Unitarian Jihad In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.20050414164745.00699e2c pop.freeserve.net> References: <2.2.32.20050414164745.00699e2c pop.freeserve.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_6298390==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59243 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_6298390==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Grimer wrote: >Since I had no idea what "katana" meant I thought I would >give the definition for any other Vorts who are equally >orientally challenged. ;-) > >----------------------------------------------------------- >A slightly curved sword, with its convex edge sharpened, >used since the Ashikaga period (1333-1474). It was one >of the weapons used by the Bushi class . . . I do not know about Ashikaga period Japanese, but in modern Japanese it just means "sword." Any kind, as far as I know. - Jed --=====================_6298390==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Grimer wrote:

Since I had no idea what "katana" meant I thought I would
give the definition for any other Vorts who are equally
orientally challenged.  ;-)

-----------------------------------------------------------
A slightly curved sword, with its convex edge sharpened,
used since the Ashikaga period (1333-1474). It was one
of the weapons used by the Bushi class . . .

I do not know about Ashikaga period Japanese, but in modern Japanese it just means "sword." Any kind, as far as I know.

- Jed
--=====================_6298390==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 14 09:30:31 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3EGUOvQ001078; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 09:30:24 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3EGUM7d001056; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 09:30:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 09:30:22 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: [OT] Republicans Bug You Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 12:30:15 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: <20050414163015.POCU2468.imf23aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59244 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: http://tinyurl.com/53upx "Slime-mold Beetles Named for Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld Three new beetles of the genus Agathidium have been named after members of the current administration: A. bushi, A. cheneyi and A. rumsfeldi." :-Þ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 14 09:59:32 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3EGxGvQ016432; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 09:59:17 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3EGxEcw016419; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 09:59:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 09:59:14 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20050414165906.20725.qmail web81109.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 09:59:06 -0700 (PDT) From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: Laddermill Wind Generator To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050414112909.02b74fa0 pop.mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59245 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Looking ahead, there may be a better alternative to the basic theme... First, it ought to be easy to test the basic concept - which is a series of rotating wing-like airfoils - without going to the enormous expense of a jet steam version. Imagine a gigantic light-weight "Ferris wheel" built using kevlar spokes with a thin rim of kevlar and with the airfoils attached to that rim. The airfoils would be individually controlled in their "attack angle", using computers to maximize the "lift" which is converted into torgue very efficiently by the large rotating mass. Each airfoil might be several hundred feet in wingspan - they are essentially the wings of glider aircraft, and might be mass produced as such. The whole device is mounted on a turn-table, in order to always face directly into the wind. The wheel is sited on top of a mountain with reliable wind. This concept might end-up producing more kwh per invested $dollar of cost than the traditional array of hundreds of individual mills. The reason that the idea looks economically feasible, on first appraisal, is this: In a traditional mill, most of the weight is in the stationary tower and provides no real energy. Here the supporting structure itself turns and provides torque, so there is less "dead-weight". Using one large generator, instead of hundreds of small ones also should be economically advantageous, in both capital-cost and efficiency. Also a wing, rather than a propeller is mounted so that its leading edge is more perpendicular to airflow, and this uniformity has advantages in lighter weight. Of course, kevlar is more expensive than steel in 2005, but kevlar is essentially carbon, so the actual cost, in a longer-term perspective, has a lot of downside potential - if the demand for it increases to a tonnage level closer to that of steel. This could be the "killer-ap" which increases the demand for kevlar (and/or normal graphite fiber)to the level where cost falls very quickly. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 14 10:03:00 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3EH2lvQ018369; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 10:02:48 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3EH2jHd018354; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 10:02:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 10:02:45 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 09:04:33 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Mountainside solar towers Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59246 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 8:13 AM 4/14/5, RC Macaulay wrote: >BlankAdding to Horace's thread, the draft tubes could be simple 36 ft >diameter corrogated drainage culvert mounted on the incline in length >sections as long as the incline. The rise column (or draft tube as you call it) should be cheaper to implement as a single flat cross section than as multiple tubes. The sides not against the mountain must be insulated to preserve the temperature of the air in the rise column, because its bouyancy is what drives the device. > >A converging cone of less than 15 degrees with a cone shaped prop >configuration positioned in the converging cone that > adjusts ( necessary for proper speed efficency) outward from the >convergence would drive the generator. Interesting effects could be >developed by use of a diverging cone of not greater that 7 1/2 degrees in >that it would provide the ideal " Gibson formula" venturi throat. Placing >small parabolic segments near the converging cone would induce a vortex >that would continue through the inclined draft tube and discharge out the >diverging cone. I think NASA did some work along these lines regarding a vortex tube windmill. Also of interest is that an effective solar tower power generator is not materially different from a big wind tunnel, except things run in reverse. The economics of the design choices don't differ much. >Adding moisture ( steam) into the inlet would increase the flow via >differential temperatures Adding water at the bottom of the rise column would decrease the temperature of the rise column and thus decrease bouyancy, and thus decrease power output, true? Also, any condensation higher up in the column would decrease air volume and thus decrease bouyancy as well. Preventing condensation is a further major advantage to an insulated rise column. >May make a weathermaker on the leeward side of the mountain. Be cheaper >than building a 3500ft solar tower. Yep, when you get rid of all the need for major structual support much of the cost goes away, that's the fundamental idea. It seems to me nonsensical to test the concept by building a stand alone tower instead of trying one built on a mountainside first, but I guess there aren't a lot of mountains in Australia. They could test their concepts in another country though. Interestingly, a mountainside solar tower concept might even work in the arctic, especially in the summer when the sun shines nearly 24 hours a day. Overnight heat storage could be accomplished using thermal wells drilled into rock or gravel and they could be heated using windmills at the top of the mountain. There would be some overall energy loss from this method, but the advantage is that energy generation would be far more uniform and more spread out through the day. In the winter power generation would be only from the windmills, but still would have the advantage of being highly smoothed out and controllable. A "solar tower" in the arctic, driven in part by heat generated from wind power, might more accurately be called a "thermal tower", "bouyancy tower", or "draft tower". There are several major factors that make a thermal tower more effective in the arctic than in the desert: (1) cool air is heavier in the arctic. The power comes from the *difference* in density between air in the rise column and outside. (2) Heating cold air is easier than heating already hot air. Heat pumps might not be necessary to make effective use of thermal storage. (3) Arctic air is dry. Much of the arctic is desert, and much precipitation is in the form of snow anyway. (4) Mountain bases tend to be close to sea level, so air density at the base is maximal, (5) Mountains are located in high wind areas, so auxiliary windmills on the mountain ridge are likely effective, as may be a rise tube exit which makes use of wind power to assist rise tube evacuation. This can be accomplished using wind spinnable devices or by venturi effects, some achieved maintaining orientation of the exit structure with the wind direction. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 14 10:07:33 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3EH7OvQ020247; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 10:07:24 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3EH7NEj020233; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 10:07:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 10:07:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050414180815.00699d88 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 18:08:15 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: ...water into wine... Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59247 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 03:26 pm 14-04-05 +0000, I wrote: > .............................. represents >the inverse of a black body, viz a white body or >a perfect absorber. CORRECTION - This was badly expressed to put it mildly 8-(. A black body is of course a perfect emitter and absorber. By a white body I mean an absorber of the ultraviolet radiation which would otherwise lead to a ultraviolet catastrophe ..............are also white bodies which absorb >radiant energy. I believe that this, not quanta, >is the solution to the problem of the violet >catastrophe. That should of course have read "the ultra-violet catastrophe." I think I must have been thinking of certain catholic bishops who are indeed a catastrophe. 8-( Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 14 10:46:09 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3EHjvNX005449; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 10:45:58 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3EHjqIR005392; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 10:45:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 10:45:52 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050414134034.02bee530 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 13:45:41 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Laddermill Wind Generator In-Reply-To: <20050414165906.20725.qmail web81109.mail.yahoo.com> References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050414112909.02b74fa0 pop.mindspring.com> <20050414165906.20725.qmail web81109.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_1003421==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59248 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_1003421==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Jones Beene wrote: >Imagine a gigantic light-weight "Ferris wheel" built >using kevlar spokes with a thin rim of kevlar and with >the airfoils attached to that rim. The airfoils would >be individually controlled in their "attack angle" . . . Ah, yes. It would resemble a marine paddle wheel. The later ones changed the angle of attack of paddles as they rotated. The largest ones ever made were on the Great Eastern. They were 17 meters in diameter. See photo here: http://www.portcities.org.uk/london/server/show/conMediaFile.28/The-paddle-wheels-during-the-building-of-the-Great-Eastern.html This idea incorporates my nutty plan to build a 1-km wheel. I still think it is out of the question, but this is better than having steel cables fall out of the sky. - Jed --=====================_1003421==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Jones Beene wrote:

Imagine a gigantic light-weight "Ferris wheel" built
using kevlar spokes with a thin rim of kevlar and with
the airfoils attached to that rim. The airfoils would
be individually controlled in their "attack angle" . . .

Ah, yes. It would resemble a marine paddle wheel. The later ones changed the angle of attack of paddles as they rotated. The largest ones ever made were on the Great Eastern. They were 17 meters in diameter. See photo here:

http://www.portcities.org.uk/london/server/show/conMediaFile.28/The-paddle-wheels-during-the-building-of-the-Great-Eastern.html

This idea incorporates my nutty plan to build a 1-km wheel.

I still think it is out of the question, but this is better than having steel cables fall out of the sky.

- Jed
--=====================_1003421==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 14 10:58:20 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3EHw7NX010611; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 10:58:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3EHw5MK010589; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 10:58:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 10:58:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Laddermill Web Site Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 13:57:53 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050414175753.SIWP2468.imf23aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59249 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The FAQ says Norway needs only 50 laddermills: http://www.laddermill.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 14 11:01:19 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3EI17NX011993; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 11:01:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3EI15lV011967; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 11:01:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 11:01:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Laddermill Wind Generator Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 14:03:14 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050414134034.02bee530 pop.mindspring.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: <0QaOhB.A.66C.g_qXCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59250 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hey Gents; Just saw a docu on the Great Eastern, w/respect to the laying of the first transatlantic cable for telegraphy. Interesting story, that. One thing they didn't explain, was that it seemed from the visuals that a single large cable was used. What was the return circuit? The first cable failed after 23 days, due to shoddy design and lack of consideration of even the basics of electronics that were known at the time. The next attempt ( can't keep a good salesman down, failure only encourages them ) used the ship ( which also was an economic disaster ) to lay the cable. Thanks to congress, the next effort forced them to use Lord Kelvin rather than the shakey doctor employed for the first attempt. But the goverment is evil, so just ignore that. It worked, and we've been able to hear Frank Grimer ever since ( Hi Frank! ). K. -----Original Message----- From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:jedrothwell mindspring.com] Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2005 1:46 PM To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: Re: Laddermill Wind Generator Jones Beene wrote: Imagine a gigantic light-weight "Ferris wheel" built using kevlar spokes with a thin rim of kevlar and with the airfoils attached to that rim. The airfoils would be individually controlled in their "attack angle" . . . Ah, yes. It would resemble a marine paddle wheel. The later ones changed the angle of attack of paddles as they rotated. The largest ones ever made were on the Great Eastern. They were 17 meters in diameter. See photo here: http://www.portcities.org.uk/london/server/show/conMediaFile.28/The-paddle-wheels-during-the-building-of-the-Great-Eastern.html This idea incorporates my nutty plan to build a 1-km wheel. I still think it is out of the question, but this is better than having steel cables fall out of the sky. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 14 11:01:49 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3EI1fNX012316; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 11:01:41 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3EI1dfH012298; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 11:01:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 11:01:39 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 10:03:28 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Laddermill Wind Generator Resent-Message-ID: <2aLqa.A.GAD.DArXCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59251 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:22 AM 4/14/5, Jed Rothwell wrote: >The whole scheme is as improbable as Superman comic book. I must admit I have had to struggle to suppress the vision of a tangled mess falling from the sky. 8^) Processes like air turbulence which are described by differential equations tend to lead to moments of extreme chaos. Still, great things can come from fantasmagorical concepts like being shot to the moon in a cannon shell, or travelling 20,000 leagues under the sea. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 14 11:04:25 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3EI4GNX013359; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 11:04:16 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3EI4FkT013341; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 11:04:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 11:04:15 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 10:06:05 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Prius hybrids selling at a premium Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59252 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:41 AM 4/14/5, Jed Rothwell wrote: >These percentages are much too high. I should not try to quote these things >off the top of my head. Here are the corrected figures as reported in the >New York Times a few years ago. > >Income group, Average pretax income, Total government tax receipts, As a >percentage of income >Bottom 20%, $7,946, $1449, 18% >Second 20%, $20,319, $2847, 14% >Middle 20%, $35,536, $5,622, 16% >Fourth 20%, $56,891, $9,835, 17% >Top 20%, $116,666, $21,623, 19% This looks utterly bogus! Possibly more oriented around witholding than actual tax maybe? It looks like no one bothered to even look at a form 1040. Consider this year for example (other years similar, just slightly different numbers). A single person gets $7,950 in deductions right off, so would not pay any federal taxes at all on $7,946. If the percentage is based on taxable income and not adjusted gross income, then that percentage is highly misleading. For example the first line of numbers for this year should be: Bottom 20%, $7,946, $795, 5%, where the 5% is of actual income of $7,946 + $7,950 = $15,896. After taking the deductions, the tax table this year applies the formula: $0 - $7150, 10% $7150 - $29,050, 15% $29,050 - $70,350, 25% $70,350 - $146750, 28% etc. HOWEVER, people making over $100,000 are increasingly getting it socked to them at a much higher rate in the form of an alternative minimum tax. This also does not include the possibility of Earned Income Credit (EIC) for the low end wage earners. There is no way to get to $1,449 taxes on $7,946 actual income. All the $1,449 would have to be state and local taxes and sales tax, and that just can't be 18%, unless maybe all the money were spent on booze, cigarettes, and gasolene. 8^) Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 14 11:06:20 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3EI6CNX014086; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 11:06:12 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3EI6Bee014071; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 11:06:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 11:06:11 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Re: Laddermill Wind Generator Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 14:06:04 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050414180604.SPZP2468.imf23aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59253 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > > From: Jones Beene > This could be the "killer-ap" which increases the > demand for kevlar (and/or normal graphite fiber)to the > level where cost falls very quickly. This web page: http://www.lr.tudelft.nl/asset/webpage/en/laddermill.php says to use dyneema: http://www.dsm.com/en_US/html/hpf/home_dyneema.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 14 11:10:21 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3EIA9NX015847; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 11:10:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3EIA65M015806; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 11:10:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 11:10:06 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Laddermill Simulator Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 14:09:54 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050414180954.STPG2468.imf23aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59254 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is fun! http://www.ockels.nl/Flash/laddermill_flash_v1.html I killed several sheep on my first design. :-) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 14 11:12:34 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3EICONX018440; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 11:12:25 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3EICNqu018431; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 11:12:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 11:12:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 10:14:13 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Great pyramid... water pump? Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59255 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 9:42 AM 4/14/5, Mike Carrell wrote: >Research by a Distinguished Professor in material science has shown that >samples of rock from the Giza plateau are indeed synthetic. His paper is >being submitted to a senior scientific publication. I thought this was determined some years ago. I recall seeing something on public TV about this, that the pyramids were made from a form of concrete used in the vicinity at the time. This also accounts for the perfect fit between "stones". Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 14 11:14:32 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3EIEPNX019388; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 11:14:25 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3EIENaZ019373; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 11:14:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 11:14:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=YE5QC/HyhuzY1YS2nw6wwntBUvuHN+2SEI/JILRhjnLGEmmgCt/QOzqMPZFrYRYCr3hGL4aFFoLrQd0AtZ1cXiPtFR7VW1tKCL24OEkIvI2C2jyWrgj/LNgFrWAOD4IqZqYtj1HXlyhsN+H0/RTVXDEWBjxuzVwD9dY5GPUKa0M= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 11:14:21 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Gas tax / Unitarian Jihad In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050414120938.02b75a68 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <2.2.32.20050414164745.00699e2c pop.freeserve.net> <6.2.0.14.2.20050414120938.02b75a68 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j3EIELNX019355 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59256 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: no, even in modern japanese, a katana is a particular kind of sword. other notable japanese swords, the dai-katana (think greatsword made like a katana), the tachi, an even larger version, used from horseback, the ninja-to, a shorter, straight blade weapon, with a chisel point for penetrating armor, easily hidden in robes, used for assasination. the katana was worn in a grouping called the daisho, which included the wakisazi, a smaller katata, and or the tanto, a dagger. (dont get me started on yari and naginata and their various forms) (i swear, the lack of knowledge on some things around here just shocks me) but yeah, the unitarian jihad page has a name generator on it. several friends and i were messing around with it a few days back. it pulls up a weapon, a style, and a thing to apply that style to. lots of laughs. On 4/14/05, Jed Rothwell wrote: > Grimer wrote: > > Since I had no idea what "katana" meant I thought I would > give the definition for any other Vorts who are equally > orientally challenged. ;-) > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > A slightly curved sword, with its convex edge sharpened, > used since the Ashikaga period (1333-1474). It was one > of the weapons used by the Bushi class . . . > I do not know about Ashikaga period Japanese, but in modern Japanese it just > means "sword." Any kind, as far as I know. > > - Jed > -- "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 14 11:31:47 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3EIVdNX028947; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 11:31:40 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3EIVceY028933; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 11:31:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 11:31:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 10:33:28 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Laddermill boat Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59257 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: A laddermill "sail" would be terrific fun for a recreational sailboat . It could drive a prop. It would do especially well sailing directly into the wind, a point of sail where ordinary sails can't go. It may not do well in a following wind, but that's what spinnakers are for. The concept might even be of some use for commercial shipping. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 14 11:39:04 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3EIchUj031941; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 11:38:43 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3EIcgOO031924; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 11:38:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 11:38:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Laddermill Electricity Cost Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 14:38:36 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050414183836.TSUC2468.imf23aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59258 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Here is the cost analysis: http://home-14.tiscali-business.nl/~ockels/50mw.htm resulting in 4.33 cents/kWhr. Plus various data from studies ranging from 1970: http://home-14.tiscali-business.nl/~ockels/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 14 12:09:41 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3EJ9Ndg002975; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 12:09:24 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3EJ9Ixr002913; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 12:09:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 12:09:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050414142614.0407dd00 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 15:02:51 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: OFF TOPIC Taxes In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_3006281==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: <7hQgP.A.Xt.c_rXCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59259 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_3006281==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Horace Heffner wrote: > >Income group, Average pretax income, Total government tax receipts, As a > >percentage of income > >Bottom 20%, $7,946, $1449, 18% > >Second 20%, $20,319, $2847, 14% > >Middle 20%, $35,536, $5,622, 16% > >Fourth 20%, $56,891, $9,835, 17% > >Top 20%, $116,666, $21,623, 19% > >This looks utterly bogus! I am afraid not. The Bureau of Labor Statistics knows what they are talking about. Other authoritative studies have reached similar conclusions. >Possibly more oriented around witholding than actual tax maybe? It looks >like no one bothered to even look at a form 1040. As noted, this includes all types of government taxes, including income tax, sales tax, FICA, surtaxes, Federal, state and local. Form 1040 only covers a fraction of people's taxes, and only a very small fraction of wealthy people's income. Most wealthy people make money from capital gains, which are taxed at 15%, or from tax-free bonds, which are not taxed at all by the Feds or the state. (The Bush administration is pushing to make capital gains tax free.) Wealthy people know many more tricks, so the upshot is they pay only 19% of their total income. I admit that I myself am just wealthy enough to hire a tax accountant and take advantage of some of these things, and my taxes are quite low. Corporate CEOs who make hundreds of millions per year use so many tricks and ways to defer income tax they typically pay only a few percent. They also use things like tax shelters in foreign countries. Also, inheritance taxes have been largely eliminated, and they will be completely eliminated soon. Bill Gates pointed out that he never paid any money on his billions, because they are capital gains and he has not cashed them in. When his children inherit those billions (the ones he has not given away), they will pay nothing. Gates and several other leading moguls are in favor of the inheritance tax. They are lobbying to preserve it. Wealthy people also use trust funds and life insurance to circumvent taxes. Inheritances bring nothing to poor people, and usually only minor sums to middle class people, but for a very wealthy person an inheritance or trust fund may be worth hundreds of thousands or even millions of dollars per year over his entire lifetime -- far more than most people ever earn -- and he pays no taxes on it at all. >Consider this year for example (other years similar, just slightly >different numbers). A single person gets $7,950 in deductions right off, >so would not pay any federal taxes at all on $7,946. Federal taxes are not the issue here. The other taxes add up to 14%, especially in poor, backward states such as Georgia and Alabama, where state taxes, sales taxes and property taxes are high. >If the percentage is based on taxable income and not adjusted gross >income, then that percentage >is highly misleading. The percentages shown above are for all income. What this means is that a working person earning $7,950 ends up paying $1,449 in FICA, state and local taxes, sales tax, beer taxes, gasoline taxes, telephone taxes and so on. FICA (Social Security) is 12.4% off the top ($985). Local sales tax in Atlanta is another 8% (except for food). Poor people spend every dollar for rent, utilities, gas and in retail stores. Rent is not deductible, unlike the mortgages money middle class people pay. A poor person who does have his own house in Atlanta will pay at least $500 in property tax, and if he owns a car he will pay a few hundred for the tag fee. My Geo Metro is officially worth $450, but I still have to pay $60. Wealthy people do not own cars or pay tag fees; they use company-owned vehicles. Things like that add up to $1,400 quickly. My daughter in college made about $7,000 in part time jobs, and she would have paid ~$1,400 but tuition is tax deductible. If she had been a high school drop out working at McDonald's and paying for her own gas and car tag she would have paid ~$1,400. >For example the first line of numbers for this year should be: Bottom 20%, >$7,946, $795, 5%, where the 5% is of actual income of $7,946 + $7,950 = >$15,896. Not sure what this means. The table above means people who earn $7,900 per year from all sources. 20% of the people in the U.S. make this much on average. Most of them get no public assistance. All the ones I personally know get nothing. However, as the Bureau of Labor Statistics points out, they often have off-the-books hidden income, usually amounting to a few thousand dollars a year. >HOWEVER, people making over $100,000 are increasingly getting it socked to >them at a much higher rate in the form of an alternative minimum tax. Believe me, people earning more than $100,000 are on easy street. They have not had it so good since the Guilded Age, the 1880s. They know so many ways to avoid taxes that anything they do pay is more or less voluntary. >There is no way to get to $1,449 taxes on $7,946 actual income. I assure you there is. I know several dirt-poor people who live on that much, and pay that much in taxes. - Jed --=====================_3006281==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Horace Heffner wrote:

>Income group, Average pre= tax income, Total government tax receipts, As a
>percentage of income
>Bottom 20%, $7,946, $1449, 18%
>Second 20%, $20,319, $2847, 14%
>Middle 20%, $35,536, $5,622, 16%
>Fourth 20%, $56,891, $9,835, 17%
>Top 20%, $116,666, $21,623, 19%

This looks utterly bogus!

I am afraid not. The Bureau of Labor Statistics knows what they are talking about. Other authoritative studies have reached similar conclusions.


Possibly more oriented around witholding than actual tax maybe?  It looks like no one bothered to even look at a form 1040.

As noted, this includes all types of government taxes, including income tax, sales tax, FICA, surtaxes, Federal, state and local. Form 1040 only covers a fraction of people's taxes, and only a very small fraction of wealthy people's income. Most wealthy people make money from capital gains, which are taxed at 15%, or from tax-free bonds, which are not taxed at all by the Feds or the state. (The Bush administration is pushing to make capital gains tax free.) Wealthy people know many more tricks, so the upshot is they pay only 19% of their total income. I admit that I myself am just wealthy enough to hire a tax accountant and take advantage of some of these things, and my taxes are quite low.

Corporate CEOs who make hundreds of millions per year use so many tricks and ways to defer income tax they typically pay only a few percent. They also use things like tax shelters in foreign countries.

Also, inheritance taxes have been largely eliminated, and they will be completely eliminated soon. Bill Gates pointed out that he never paid any money on his billions, because they are capital gains and he has not cashed them in. When his children inherit those billions (the ones he has not given away), they will pay nothing. Gates and several other leading moguls are in favor of the inheritance tax. They are lobbying to preserve it. Wealthy people also use trust funds and life insurance to circumvent taxes. Inheritances bring nothing to poor people, and usually only minor sums to middle class people, but for a very wealthy person an inheritance or trust fund may be worth hundreds of thousands or even millions of dollars per year over his entire lifetime -- far more than most people ever earn -- and he pays no taxes on it at all.


Consider this year for exampl= e (other years similar, just slightly
different numbers).  A single person gets $7,950 in deductions right off,
so would not pay any federal taxes at all on $7,946.

Federal taxes are not the issue here. The other taxes add up to 14%, especially in poor, backward states such as Georgia and Alabama, where state taxes, sales taxes and property taxes are high.


If the percentage is based on taxable income and not adjusted gross income, then that percentage
is highly misleading.

The percentages shown above are for all income. What this means is that a working person earning $7,950 ends up paying $1,449 in FICA, state and local taxes, sales tax, beer taxes, gasoline taxes, telephone taxes and so on. FICA (Social Security) is 12.4% off the top ($985). Local sales tax in Atlanta is another 8% (except for food). Poor people spend every dollar for rent, utilities, gas and in retail stores. Rent is not deductible, unlike the mortgages money middle class people pay. A poor person who does have his own house in Atlanta will pay at least $500 in property tax, and if he owns a car he will pay a few hundred for the tag fee. My Geo Metro is officially worth $450, but I still have to pay $60. Wealthy people do not own cars or pay tag fees; they use company-owned vehicles. Things like that add up to $1,400 quickly. My daughter in college made about $7,000 in part time jobs, and she would have paid ~$1,400 but tuition is tax deductible. If she had been a high school drop out working at McDonald's and paying for her own gas and car tag she would have paid ~$1,400.


For example the first line of numbers for this year should be: Bottom 20%, $7,946, $795, 5%, where the 5% is of actual income of $7,946 + $7,950 =3D $15,896.

Not sure what this means. The table above means people who earn $7,900 per year from all sources. 20% of the people in the U.S. make this much on average. Most of them get no public assistance. All the ones I personally know get nothing. However, as the Bureau of Labor Statistics points out, they often have off-the-books hidden income, usually amounting to a few thousand dollars a year.


HOWEVER, people making over $100,000 are increasingly getting it socked to
them at a much higher rate in the form of an alternative minimum tax.

Believe me, people earning more than $100,000 are on easy street. They have not had it so good since the Guilded Age, the 1880s. They know so many ways to avoid taxes that anything they do pay is more or less voluntary.


There is no way to get to $1,= 449 taxes on $7,946 actual income.

I assure you there is. I know several dirt-poor people who live on that much, and pay that much in taxes.

- Jed
 --=====================_3006281==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 14 12:11:45 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3EJBOdg004214; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 12:11:25 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3EJBM9i004192; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 12:11:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 12:11:22 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Laddermill Funding Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 15:11:16 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050414191116.UXXD2468.imf23aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: <6O_z4B.A.aBB.aBsXCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59260 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This "tethered" guy: http://home.comcast.net/%7EGTOSS/ has a CV which indicates who is funding the laddermill: "Currently consulting with European Space Agency astronaut Wubbo Ockels and Drachen Foundation to develop the LadderMill invention for wind driven electric power generation." http://www.drachen.org/default.html How appropriate! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 14 12:19:48 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3EJJadg008118; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 12:19:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3EJJYuW008104; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 12:19:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 12:19:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050414150936.04083e20 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 15:17:39 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Gas tax / Unitarian Jihad In-Reply-To: References: <2.2.32.20050414164745.00699e2c pop.freeserve.net> <6.2.0.14.2.20050414120938.02b75a68 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_3656921==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59261 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_3656921==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed leaking pen wrote: >no, even in modern japanese, a katana is a particular kind of sword. Not according to my 1954 edition Kenkyusha' Japanese-English dictionary. Under "katana" it says "sword; blade." See also: http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/wwwjdic/ Maybe things have changed since 1954. Note also that in Kenkyusha's English-Japanese dictionary (1960 edition), under "sword" you find "tsurugi; katana." And in a Japanese only dictionary, when you look up "tsurugi" you find "katana" and vice versa. Dictionaries are unhelpful in that regard. - Jed --=====================_3656921==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" leaking pen wrote:

no, even in modern japanese, a katana is a particular kind of sword.

Not according to my 1954 edition Kenkyusha' Japanese-English dictionary. Under "katana" it says "sword; blade." See also: http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/wwwjdic/

Maybe things have changed since 1954.

Note also that in Kenkyusha's English-Japanese dictionary (1960 edition), under "sword" you find "tsurugi; katana." And in a Japanese only dictionary, when you look up "tsurugi" you find "katana" and vice versa. Dictionaries are unhelpful in that regard.

- Jed
 --=====================_3656921==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 14 12:40:35 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3EJeCdg017870; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 12:40:12 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3EJe4Ee017767; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 12:40:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 12:40:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: Message-ID: <046d01c54129$8a6e34b0$ba59ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: Subject: BLP implementation path Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 15:15:15 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59263 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In the current discussion of a post-peak-oil world, the usual alternatives have been worked over thoroughly, and found unsatisfactory. An important factor is perceptions of the future. While expansion and a better future are seen as possible, people will dream, hope, invest and work to make it real. If that perception turns to gloom and doom and no light at the end of the tunnel, the collapse of international commerce and investment markets may be swift. A workable road map to a better future will help. This drives the workers and supporters of LENR technology, but it seems a bit beyond reach at the moment. There is a likely alternative in Black Light Power. For those here who have not studied it I will give a sketch of its features and status, with links to specific data. After a decade of R&D, with publication of theory and experiments, privately funded Black Light Power has entered a phase of negotiation with a number of potential product development partners who are doing serious due diligence studies of the BLP technology, including replication of critical effects in their own laboratories. Many 'new energy' comapnies have made this claim. All I can say is that I have credible sources and my own analysis of what has been presented in publications and on the BLP website. Papers on key aspect of BLP technology have been published in the Journal of Applied Physics and other senior technical journals in the US and abroad. Mills has been very active in refining his theory and developing visualizations of the orbitsphere elctron model to aid third party consultants retained by managements of prospective partners. He has recently lectured to audiences in Holland. The BLP process uses certain catalytic ions to induce atomic hydrogen atoms to collapse to a lower state, called hydrinos. A cascade of collpases [but not a runaway chain reaction] to many lower states is possible, with yields of still higher energy at each stage. At even the first stage, the energy yield per atom is greater than that necessary to isolate a hydrogen atom from a water molecule. This opens the door to ordinary water as a fuel, which has been demonstrated, as O++ is one of the catalyts. The energy from the reactions is primarily as deep UV radiation, hence the name Black Light Power. Further details and tutorials are available a the website, www.blacklightpower.com. The BLP process has been demonstrated in aqueous and gaseous modes, the latter producing an energetic plasma. It is strongly OU by calorimetric tests, neglecting energy losses of support and conversion equipment; closed-loop systems have not yet been demonstrated.. A spectroscopic signature is strong broadening of the hydrogen alpha line, indicating hydrogen temperatures of X00,000 K. At http://www.blacklightpower.com.pdf.technical/Techtheoryintro030705Web3.pdf are 107 slides of a recent presentation, "The Hydrino: Lower-level States of the Hydrogen Atom Which Have Remarkable Consequences" - Invited Evening Lecture at the 17th Symposium of Plasma Physics and Radiation Technology, sponsored by the Netherlands' Physical Society Section Plasma and Gas Discharge Physics and Research School Center for Plasma Physics and Radiation Technology, Lunteren, Netherlands, March 1-2, 2005. I will refer to certain slides inthe discussion which follows. To set the stage, go to p97, which shows a car beside a big box, which is a freestanding BLP hydrogen generator, using water as a source of energy to operate the generator, and of hydrogen to fuel cars. Such modules can be added to filling stations everywhere to service cars utilizing hydrogen for fuel. These cars may have IC engines adapted for hydrogen, or fuel cells, or in the future BLP-Stirling engines. The modules use local water and do not reqluire hydrogen shipped from remote sources like wind or solar farms, or from pipelines. Following pages show details of the system, and cost estimates. These estimates are based on BLP applications publicly disclosed. Surplus electrical energy can be supplied to the local grid. Below are my conjectures on how the performance might be improved. On p100 is a picture of a 3 kW Stirling engine from Stirling Technology Corp., suggesting that such engines can utilize the heat from BLP reactors in stationary or mobile applications. Stirning engines have reasonable Carnot efficiencies, but the power/weight and power/volume ratios will depend on the input temperature. Thus a 20 kW Stirling for a hybrid car may be bulkier than an IC engine burning hydrogen. However, BLP has demonstrated that the BLP reactions can get over 100 times the energy from a given quantity of hydrogen than is obtained by burning the same amount of hydrogen. This alone is a powerful enabling factor for the 'hydrogen economy', for that multplier affects every aspect of generation, storage, transportation, etc. These elements provide a smooth transition from a gasoline based transportation system to a hydrogen-fueled transportation system. The BLP hydrogen generators can supplement sources developed by other investors, such as wind and solar PV. BLP power systems make far mor effective use of hydrogen than any competitve system. Widespread knowledge of this path may ease panic over impending peaking of oil supplies. With this introduction, I will proceed with more details. Page 101 shows a block diagram of the sytem in the box. In the center at the left is the BLP reactor. Research models of this reactor are shown on pp 98-99, with further details at http://www.blacklightpower.com/cell.shml. On pp 24-25 of the presentation is another view of this reactor. Page 24 shows the essential elements: 1) a central heater using tungsten wire, 2) a cylindrical titanium mesh sleeve dipped in a solution of potassium nitrate or potassium carbonate, 3) provision for circulatin hydrogen gas through the cell at about 0.1 Torr. With the heater at about 1100-1500 C, H2 gas is dissociated to H, and the potassium salt is dissociated yielding K+ [with nitrates] or K+++ [with carbonates]. Either of these are catalysts with the hydrogen *atoms* in a resonant-transfer [rt] reaction which causes the hydrogen atom to trasnfer a specific amount of energy to the catalyst atoms, destabilizing the hydrogen atom, which shrinks to a lower energy state, yielding substantial energy in the form of ultraviolet light and kinetic energy, and forming hydrinos. With the nitrate catalysts H(1/2) is produced; with the carbonates, H(1/4) predominates, with higher energy yield. Below the image on p25 is a reference to a paper by Conrads et al., published in a European refereed journal. Conrads verified the essentials of this reacton in a different setup. He used halogen lamps as heaters, wrapped with wire as a hydrogen dissociator. He observed the rt plasma and the Balmer line broadening [evidence of high temperature hydrogen]. He removed the titanium sleeve, which assists in the dissociation of the potassium carbonate, and the plasma did not develop. He removed the wire around the lamps, which dissociated the hydrogen molecules to atomic hydrogen, and the plasma did not develop. Only when the essential elements were in place did he observe the rt plasma described by Mills. This is a substantial confirmation of Mills' report, as it was done in another lab, with vartiations of the setup, which worked only when done as Mills described. The research cell had a wall temperature of 700 C and an energy density of 0.1 W/cc, as stated on p97. This is not as impressive as that seen in a reaction of hydrogen and helium, ionized in a microwave cell, where the energy density reached 30 W/cc, comparable with IC engines. On p87 is a view of this cell, an Evenson microwave cavity enclosing a quartz tube carrying the gas mixtures, which is seen glowing with microwave excitation. The assembly is sumberged in a fish tank filled with water with a mechanical stirrer and a precision recording thermometer. On p88 is a plot of temperature/time and a brief description of the protocol. Krypton is not a BLP catalyst gas, but He+, Ar+, Ne+ and O++ are catalysts. At the bottom of the figure is a reference to a paper by Phillips et al. published in the Journal of Applied Physics. It containes a detailed energy analysis of the system and the results of tests with different catalysts. Page 103 shows a block diagram of the electrolysis module of the hydrogen generator. At www.blacklightpower.com.pdf.Technical/electrolysis042804.pdf is a discussion of an electrolytic cell, similar to Mills' earliest experiments. The equipment is upgraded, with a control cell for measureing calorimetry. A special feature is that K2CO3 cell's cathode is an evacuated thin wall nickel tube which allows hydrinos to diffuse through and be collected for analysis. Details of that analysis are in the paper. What is important here is that the electrolytic cell is not only a hydrogen generator for the thermal reactor [producing hydrinos as a byproduct] and for automobile fuel, it is itself a source of hydrinos for sale as a valuable chemical product. Hydrinos, the end product of these reactions, can and will form hydrides in the electron-rich environment of the reactors. Hydrino hydrides have vast potential application in chemistry, where they may greatly enhance product qualities. Batteries utilizing hydrinos may exhibit unusually high cell voltages and unprecedented energy storage densities, which may make electric-only cars feasible. Thus all application systems will include provision for retaining hydrinos for sale as valuable chemicals. Toxicity of hydrinos is unknown at present. I now conjecture application improvements. All the device configurations posted by BLP use standard laboratory instruments and glassware, as they should, for economy and reliability. They do not represent optimum configurations. The thermal reactor as shown has a rather low power density and ill-adapted for coupling to other systems. The essential features are titanium surfaces to dissociate the potassium carbonate and tungsten surfaces to dissociate molecular hydrogen, plus hydrogen, plus potassium carbonate. Pressure is around 1 Torr. One can think of parallel plates, one titanium and one tungsten, or a mesh of titanium and tungsten wire between two plates. Hydrogen flows between the plates, carrying away hydrinos as they form. Once brought up to operating temperature in a small region, the reaction will spread to the whole volume and the whole cell will reach into the 1000 C range if insulated. The exterior flat plates can be ribbed for effective heat transfer to boil water for a turbine, and to elevate the steam to superheated levels to operate a turbine as indicated on p101. Good Carnot efficiency can be obtained. There is no intrinsic shape for such a reactor; it can also be cylindrical, wrapped aroung the hot end of a Stirling engine. Eventually, there may be mass produced capsules containing hydrogen, catalyst, titanium, and a heater. A flashlight battery may drive it as a packaged heater. With microwave ionization, water vapor itself can be both fuel and catalyst, since O++ is a BLP catalyst. In the thermal cell, there is intense UV radiation which may also dissociate H20 and ionize O to O++, bringing another catalyst into the system. Condensate from the turbine is distilled water, suitable for the electrolytic cell. Thermal extraction systems within Carnot limits dump waste heat. Emerging thermal-electric conversion technology at www.powerchips.gi should be able to efficiently utilize the waste heat, significantly increasing the system efficiency.Power Chips have low output voltage, but high current capcility, which is appropriate for the electrolytic cell in the hydrogen generator, or in an automotive package. Jed has persistenly and correctly cited the power of the market and entrepreneurship to improve applications technology. My conjecture here is only a brief sketch of a wide range of possbilities when BLP crosses the commercial threshold and people realise that it is "real". I expect that to happen this year. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 14 12:40:39 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3EJeFdg017917; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 12:40:16 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3EJdv3Q017648; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 12:39:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 12:39:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: Message-ID: <046e01c54129$8b2a7fd0$ba59ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: Subject: Re: Great pyramid... water pump? Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 15:27:01 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59262 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace wrote: > At 9:42 AM 4/14/5, Mike Carrell wrote: > > >Research by a Distinguished Professor in material science has shown that > >samples of rock from the Giza plateau are indeed synthetic. His paper is > >being submitted to a senior scientific publication. > > > I thought this was determined some years ago. I recall seeing something on > public TV about this, that the pyramids were made from a form of concrete > used in the vicinity at the time. This also accounts for the perfect fit > between "stones". > > Regards, > > Horace Heffner > I would like to know what that program was, and who said it. The prevailing model, featured in many documentaries on PBS and elswhere is the "carve and hoist" model. The concrete model was proposed by Dr. Joseph Davidovits decades ago, but has been studiously ignored since. I learned of it from a book published by Davidovits and Morris a decade or so ago, which provoked a debate in Egyptology circles with the carve and hoist theory prevailing. I became intrigued and have been engaged with Morris and Prof. Barsoum in the matter for some time. The alchenical skill of the ancient Egyptians was considerable. there is a great deal of work to be done. Concrete is the only way to produce the famous fit between the casing stones which once covered the pyramids, with only a few remaining after these were stripped off centuries ago for construction in Cairo. Mike Carrell > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 14 12:46:42 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3EJkYdg022935; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 12:46:34 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3EJkXUa022924; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 12:46:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 12:46:33 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Taxes Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 15:46:27 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050414194627.WEDW2468.imf23aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59264 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > > From: Jed Rothwell > I assure you there is. I know several dirt-poor people who live on that > much, and pay that much in taxes. I don't think these figures include EIC, a negative tax for the poor, ie an income redistribution plan. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 14 13:35:17 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3EKZ9dg014286; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 13:35:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3EKZ8UJ014266; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 13:35:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 13:35:08 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=Vnass3zgP3hagjR61QUn4ikFLsXKFT4e3WQDXimQ6U0bW4BmPs+iXnXLKDnnHa2X1AZcVQLOtKOn+InOyNpopmtKTBbqftKfxpgEU8I1oQoFlpSQsfYerAAPWmpH5UC0jlfxfU0OqvAJ7vmiv3N6sOYbyJYGVEFqkHknQHk67n0= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 13:35:04 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Taxes In-Reply-To: <20050414194627.WEDW2468.imf23aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <20050414194627.WEDW2468.imf23aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j3EKZ5dg014231 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59265 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: terry, yes, thats with eic. the numbers were worse before it was put into place btw, if you want to be truly sickened... look at corporate taxes. corporations recieve about 80 percent of the benefits given out in monetary form by the government, and pay about 10 percent of the taxes. ignore private taxes, look at what these so called capitalist companies are doing. On 4/14/05, Terry Blanton wrote: > > > > > From: Jed Rothwell > > > I assure you there is. I know several dirt-poor people who live on that > > much, and pay that much in taxes. > > I don't think these figures include EIC, a negative tax for the poor, ie an income redistribution plan. > > -- "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 14 14:51:38 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3ELpQdg015731; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 14:51:26 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3ELpOwr015715; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 14:51:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 14:51:24 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=qTip+lLRItYlLAbgeabIyhK4mVEPm+/w6MrWGI1tf9Rw0eSyUsza5DDPUNI4ieok9dhTObHKO4qqs9HNJRPHkXV+CcOkF0ftfmVVonKCU3c9aZZ9tiAxIDuswXLsS0R3YA5W2EUszg/gQvLvYw/P8fBcqbUWg6I3T7rRUqbK1yE= ; Message-ID: <20050414215112.51824.qmail web30204.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 14:51:12 -0700 (PDT) From: Kyle Mcallister Subject: Re: Prius hybrids selling at a premium To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: 6667 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59266 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- "Stephen A. Lawrence" wrote: Then move there. My employers are German. They came here because it is increasingly hard to make a decent living there. I see them 5 days a week and they tell me all about it, whether I want to hear it or not. We do not have to have the same costs as Europe just because they do. This is a different country. --Kyle __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail Mobile Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/learn/mail From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 14 14:59:59 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3ELxndg019845; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 14:59:50 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3ELxm8N019840; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 14:59:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 14:59:48 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=jrAM0k3/1wYbkSq84VGQu0jCT/Z9cY7C7NnRLvflXo4k3H2t4Zi2IYbZa1BWC3GeTobNO91c5lCBPh19JgFF50kzYk6Q7YJODEIUzthNE3s6feM8l2yJFDF+NYL1fQNsYJB6ZZHl9oOKpZ+oyWvJhGiB/B5+ogN9q/8+97mSoMY= ; Message-ID: <20050414215942.37842.qmail web30212.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 14:59:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Kyle Mcallister Subject: Re: Gas Tax To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: 6667 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59267 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- "Stephen R. Lawrence" wrote: > Maybe higher transport costs will change all this, > but at the moment I > don't quite see the mechanism. > From: Stephen R. Lawrence, 8 Supanee Court, French's > Road, Cambridge, > England, CB4 3LB. Tel/Fax +44 1223 564373 Ah, so you already live "there". My mistake, I did not get to this message before replying to the earlier one. So....how much do you make again? I'll bet more than me (and most of the people over here who the gas prices are hurting or will hurt.) I think Jed is more or less correct in his view, that if the prices are forced that high, drop the tax burden on the working class and raise it for the upper class. --Kyle __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 14 15:00:14 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3ELxvdg019928; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 15:00:02 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3ELxuxA019906; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 14:59:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 14:59:56 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050414230047.006c79e4 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 23:00:47 +0000 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: ...water into wine... Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59268 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In Mike Carrell's "BLP implementation path" post of Thu, 14 Apr 2005 he writes: =============================================== "The BLP process uses certain catalytic ions to induce atomic hydrogen atoms to collapse to a lower state, called hydrinos. A cascade of collapses [but not a runaway chain reaction] to many lower states is possible, with yields of still higher energy at each stage. At even the first stage, the energy yield per atom is greater than that necessary to isolate a hydrogen atom from a water molecule. This opens the door to ordinary water as a fuel, which has been demonstrated, as O++ is one of the catalysts. The energy from the reactions is primarily as deep UV radiation, hence the name Black Light Power. Further details and tutorials are available a the website, www.blacklightpower.com." ================================================== It seems to me that there could be a connection here to Chaplin's isomeric clusters. Also, I believe UV is more intense in the upper atmosphere so it may be there that the water capacitors primarily get recharged. If one is seeking to regenerate water to it's original state after "cold fog" kinetic energy extraction then blacklight experience suggests that UV is the best place to start. Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 14 15:07:15 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3EM77dg022953; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 15:07:08 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3EM7535022929; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 15:07:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 15:07:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=YoiXT3qh4Ci53WMg5ZvYlFCOls/p1ERf86Ha8B0THdtaEH4knHl4sPVITWk15rp9SiLbjl8Og0KEX/zS5g3nIcWu4PtlB/DFkT88yJ9XKagnwVA8AoJSV6A3W2MNvWkYsKFgGn6ZIeZrxTfbk1EuPOuoItEjapqP6XRYRaEupDg= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 15:06:56 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Gas Tax In-Reply-To: <20050414215942.37842.qmail web30212.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <20050414215942.37842.qmail web30212.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j3EM6xdg022871 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59269 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: better yet. raise it for the corporations that use most of the gas in their trucking fleets. in addition, start billing them for road usage, instead of the citizens. On 4/14/05, Kyle Mcallister wrote: > --- "Stephen R. Lawrence" > wrote: > > Maybe higher transport costs will change all this, > > but at the moment I > > don't quite see the mechanism. > > From: Stephen R. Lawrence, 8 Supanee Court, French's > > Road, Cambridge, > > England, CB4 3LB. Tel/Fax +44 1223 564373 > > Ah, so you already live "there". My mistake, I did not > get to this message before replying to the earlier > one. > > So....how much do you make again? I'll bet more than > me (and most of the people over here who the gas > prices are hurting or will hurt.) > > I think Jed is more or less correct in his view, that > if the prices are forced that high, drop the tax > burden on the working class and raise it for the upper > class. > > --Kyle > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! > http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ > > -- "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 14 15:09:39 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3EM9Wdg023634; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 15:09:32 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3EM9U1T023616; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 15:09:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 15:09:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Laddermill Wind Generator Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 08:09:21 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <3spcf3$6joq0m mxip04a.cluster1.charter.net> <425DD127.1020701@pobox.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050414111245.02b754c0@pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050414111245.02b754c0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j3EM9Rdg023575 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59270 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jed Rothwell's message of Thu, 14 Apr 2005 11:22:23 -0400: Hi, [snip] >We have confused two different devices in this discussion. Well I had anyway. Sorry, I never really gave the laddermill any real consideration at all. >The whole scheme is as improbable as Superman comic book. I agree, and it will probably thus also be the first to be implemented. ;) Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 14 15:18:44 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3EMIXdg026754; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 15:18:34 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3EMIW1g026742; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 15:18:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 15:18:32 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050414180532.04087d60 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 18:18:18 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Taxes In-Reply-To: <20050414194627.WEDW2468.imf23aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.b ellsouth.net> References: <20050414194627.WEDW2468.imf23aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_14386031==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: <0Uru.A.xhG.3wuXCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59271 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_14386031==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Terry Blanton wrote: > > I assure you there is. I know several dirt-poor people who live on that > > much, and pay that much in taxes. > >I don't think these figures include EIC, a negative tax for the poor, ie >an income redistribution plan. The Bureau of Labor Stats says they do include EIC. The only thing left out, as I noted before, is hidden (unreported) income. This is usually a few thousand for people in the bottom 20%. That is a very large fraction of their income. There is also a large but indeterminate amount of unreported income in the top 20%, such as the folks at Enron or the corporate CEO they nabbed yesterday for secretly transferring millions to his wife. Most of these people get away with it. Middle-class people have the fewest opportunities to hide significant amounts of income because most of their money comes from wages from legitimate corporations, which are duly reported. That seems a little unfair but on the other hand middle-class people also have the lowest tax rates; 16% versus 18% for poor people. I - Jed --=====================_14386031==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Terry Blanton wrote:

> I assure you there is. I know several dirt-poor people who live on that
> much, and pay that much in taxes.

I don't think these figures include EIC, a negative tax for the poor, ie an income redistribution plan.

The Bureau of Labor Stats says they do include EIC. The only thing left out, as I noted before, is hidden (unreported) income. This is usually a few thousand for people in the bottom 20%. That is a very large fraction of their income.

There is also a large but indeterminate amount of unreported income in the top 20%, such as the folks at Enron or the corporate CEO they nabbed yesterday for secretly transferring millions to his wife. Most of these people get away with it. Middle-class people have the fewest opportunities to hide significant amounts of income because most of their money comes from wages from legitimate corporations, which are duly reported. That seems a little unfair but on the other hand middle-class people also have the lowest tax rates; 16% versus 18% for poor people.
I
- Jed
--=====================_14386031==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 14 15:35:39 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3EMZCdg032667; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 15:35:13 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3EMZB1U032660; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 15:35:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 15:35:11 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050414182607.04080a20 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 18:35:06 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Taxes In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050414142614.0407dd00 pop.mindspring.com> References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050414142614.0407dd00 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_15393109==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59272 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_15393109==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed It is important to note that not everyone in the bottom 20% who makes $7,900 per year is poor. As I mentioned, my daughter made about that much working part-time in college. A part-time stay at home mother who works 20 hours a week at Wal-Mart earns $7,000 a year. If her husband makes $40,000, that puts them solidly in the middle tier for family income in most states. - Jed --=====================_15393109==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" It is important to note that not everyone in the bottom 20% who makes $7,900 per year is poor. As I mentioned, my daughter made about that much working part-time in college. A part-time stay at home mother who works 20 hours a week at Wal-Mart earns $7,000 a year. If her husband makes $40,000, that puts them solidly in the middle tier for family income in most states.

- Jed
 --=====================_15393109==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 14 15:37:19 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3EMb8dg001127; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 15:37:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3EMb6aF001102; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 15:37:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 15:37:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=HqUR3RxWg627A97aJp4sJcAIWRIVgw6rSKVL3iVevfiFLajpwBbfQDlZc6p9Bi1OAt0CK3LSHZMzyezHWsu0PkcV2jbVY3wteF+AtT9PINoQKGbmBYxIaIxeaxjduwt+BVdbFkEVlodeGBFR0mBrYRY0Ogt+pET2EoVQ5BH8WZg= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 15:37:02 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Taxes In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050414180532.04087d60 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <20050414194627.WEDW2468.imf23aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> <6.2.0.14.2.20050414180532.04087d60 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j3EMb2dg001071 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59273 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: unreported income? few thousand? naw, youve got a few people with large amounts of unreporte (ie, illegal) income. thats whats creating the average out. mostly drug dealers. On 4/14/05, Jed Rothwell wrote: > Terry Blanton wrote: > > > I assure you there is. I know several dirt-poor people who live on that > > much, and pay that much in taxes. > > I don't think these figures include EIC, a negative tax for the poor, ie an > income redistribution plan. > The Bureau of Labor Stats says they do include EIC. The only thing left out, > as I noted before, is hidden (unreported) income. This is usually a few > thousand for people in the bottom 20%. That is a very large fraction of > their income. > > There is also a large but indeterminate amount of unreported income in the > top 20%, such as the folks at Enron or the corporate CEO they nabbed > yesterday for secretly transferring millions to his wife. Most of these > people get away with it. Middle-class people have the fewest opportunities > to hide significant amounts of income because most of their money comes from > wages from legitimate corporations, which are duly reported. That seems a > little unfair but on the other hand middle-class people also have the lowest > tax rates; 16% versus 18% for poor people. > I > - Jed > -- "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 14 15:44:45 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3EMibdg003793; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 15:44:38 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3EMialU003775; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 15:44:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 15:44:36 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050414184055.04a93c70 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 18:44:17 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Taxes In-Reply-To: References: <20050414194627.WEDW2468.imf23aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> <6.2.0.14.2.20050414180532.04087d60 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_364656==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59274 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_364656==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed leaking pen wrote: >unreported income? few thousand? naw, youve got a few people with >large amounts of unreporte (ie, illegal) income. thats whats creating >the average out. mostly drug dealers. Oh I doubt that. I think it is more often women who babysit or clean houses part time, or something innocuous like that. Or guys who sell firewood. I know some people who do both, and they do not tell Uncle Sam about the income. I meant "report" it where the Bureau of Labor Stats can find out. - Jed --=====================_364656==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" leaking pen wrote:

unreported income?  few thousand?  naw, youve got a few people with
large amounts of unreporte (ie, illegal) income.  thats whats creating
the average out.  mostly drug dealers.

Oh I doubt that. I think it is more often women who babysit or clean houses part time, or something innocuous like that. Or guys who sell firewood. I know some people who do both, and they do not tell Uncle Sam about the income.

I meant "report" it where the Bureau of Labor Stats can find out.

- Jed
--=====================_364656==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 14 15:52:41 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3EMqZdg006707; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 15:52:35 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3EMqYY7006691; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 15:52:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 15:52:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=iQS6nBEGLQ2kZAr0+oetGxD3byJdm9TbIqxz+57tApj/XBU3CF9lkjx0gy2DRScw6JF6you161++H5pvG59ydAaxBnrLZX/G6j5fg41vrcYcAcrPhz0n9MygySwRDhmwU7Dw21i70g7VrTqvR76O8iMy65ZrIgELUFAoaihbclw= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 15:52:31 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Taxes In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050414184055.04a93c70 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <20050414194627.WEDW2468.imf23aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> <6.2.0.14.2.20050414180532.04087d60 pop.mindspring.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050414184055.04a93c70 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j3EMqVdg006608 Resent-Message-ID: <05Vm-D.A.eoB.xQvXCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59275 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: for which you're looking at.. what.. a few hundred a year. maybe. and jed, the part time housewife of a 40k earner is not going to show up there. thats the whole point of the two married filing status, for checking things like that. On 4/14/05, Jed Rothwell wrote: > leaking pen wrote: > > unreported income? few thousand? naw, youve got a few people with > large amounts of unreporte (ie, illegal) income. thats whats creating > the average out. mostly drug dealers. > Oh I doubt that. I think it is more often women who babysit or clean houses > part time, or something innocuous like that. Or guys who sell firewood. I > know some people who do both, and they do not tell Uncle Sam about the > income. > > I meant "report" it where the Bureau of Labor Stats can find out. > > - Jed > -- "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 14 16:16:17 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3ENGBdg015610; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 16:16:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3ENGA02015604; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 16:16:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 16:16:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Laddermill Wind Generator Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 09:16:00 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <1dst519acc0qiir9rpth1fdiaa6igl8dta 4ax.com> References: <20050414180604.SPZP2468.imf23aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> In-Reply-To: <20050414180604.SPZP2468.imf23aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j3ENG6dg015570 Resent-Message-ID: <0TfBjC.A.wzD.5mvXCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59276 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Terry Blanton's message of Thu, 14 Apr 2005 14:06:04 -0400: Hi, [snip] >This web page: > >http://www.lr.tudelft.nl/asset/webpage/en/laddermill.php > >says to use dyneema: > >http://www.dsm.com/en_US/html/hpf/home_dyneema.htm [snip] Yes, I slipped up, and used a figure for tensile modulus instead of tensile strength. Tensile strength for kevlar is about 30 times less than tensile modulus, which puts things in a somewhat different light. Based on the corrected figure, the longest kevlar cord that would sustain it's own weight is only 290 km. For Dyneema that would be about 305 km based on the vague data supplied on their web site, combined with data from http://www.bbriefings.com/pdf/954/DSM_tech.pdf. Consequently, to support a load of 11.5 tonne would require a Dyneema cable with a diameter of 7.7 mm. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 14 18:19:20 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3F1JDdg025186; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 18:19:14 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3F1JCRc025172; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 18:19:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 18:19:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <425F17EA.4020303 bellsouth.net> Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 21:24:58 -0400 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040804 Netscape/7.2 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Taxes References: <20050414194627.WEDW2468.imf23aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> <6.2.0.14.2.20050414180532.04087d60@pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050414180532.04087d60 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59277 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > The Bureau of Labor Stats says they do include EIC. I would be interested to see a figure on what their tax debt would be without EIC. I have a relative who gets EIC and files HOH and gets all her tax prepayments PLUS almost $4,000 in addition. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 14 18:26:59 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3F1Qrdg027203; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 18:26:53 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3F1QqA3027188; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 18:26:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 18:26:52 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <425F19B6.1060905 bellsouth.net> Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 21:32:38 -0400 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040804 Netscape/7.2 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Taxes References: <20050414194627.WEDW2468.imf23aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> <6.2.0.14.2.20050414180532.04087d60@pop.mindspring.com> <425F17EA.4020303@bellsouth.net> In-Reply-To: <425F17EA.4020303 bellsouth.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59278 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: > I would be interested to see a figure on what their tax debt would be > without EIC. I have a relative who gets EIC and files HOH and gets > all her tax prepayments PLUS almost $4,000 in addition. I called to confirm my numbers. She got almost $2500 EIC plus $1,500 in prepayments *totalling* almost $4,000. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 14 18:33:09 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3F1Wtdg029721; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 18:32:55 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3F1WnY0029694; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 18:32:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 18:32:49 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <425F1B14.2050401 bellsouth.net> Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 21:38:28 -0400 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040804 Netscape/7.2 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Prius hybrids selling at a premium References: <20050413223149.9458.qmail web30203.mail.mud.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20050413223149.9458.qmail web30203.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59279 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Kyle Mcallister wrote: >Not to mention that most people cannot afford a Prius >in any case. They are not cheap. > $27k to $32k depending on location and political preference. :-) http://tinyurl.com/63t3m From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 14 19:24:16 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3F2O9xp014929; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 19:24:10 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3F2O83q014920; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 19:24:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 19:24:08 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001f01c54162$2fc53160$b0017841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: References: <2.2.32.20050414230047.006c79e4 pop.freeserve.net> Subject: Re: ...water into wine... Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 21:24:00 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-100.0 required=4.0 tests=USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59280 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frank, We believe UV plays a crucial role in the " recharge" process.... but .. some " enhancer" is working behind the scenes in the great Shakesperian drama.. perhaps we are watching part of the third act while the first has not yet been played out. Duke University has the socalled "ultimate" FEL lab and has been at it since moving the " gun" and the scientists over from Russia in the 1990's. Their work is funded by DOD with a cloak covering by NSA so the chances of looking up their skirt is nil. However, they know much more than is announced which is crumbs. Their work in UV only begins to cast a shadow over some of their advances in the spectrum sciences portion of particle physics.They have had the time, money and the best resources available.... yet silence is the only thing coming out of N.C. Richard ----- Original Message ----- From: "Grimer" To: Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2005 6:00 PM Subject: Re: ...water into wine... > In Mike Carrell's "BLP implementation path" post of > Thu, 14 Apr 2005 he writes: > > =============================================== > "The BLP process uses certain catalytic ions to > induce atomic hydrogen atoms to collapse to a > lower state, called hydrinos. A cascade of > collapses [but not a runaway chain reaction] to > many lower states is possible, with yields of > still higher energy at each stage. At even the > first stage, the energy yield per atom is greater > than that necessary to isolate a hydrogen atom > from a water molecule. This opens the door to > ordinary water as a fuel, which has been > demonstrated, as O++ is one of the catalysts. > The energy from the reactions is primarily as > deep UV radiation, hence the name Black Light > Power. Further details and tutorials are available > a the website, www.blacklightpower.com." > ================================================== > > It seems to me that there could be a connection here to > Chaplin's isomeric clusters. > > Also, I believe UV is more intense in the upper atmosphere > so it may be there that the water capacitors primarily get > recharged. > > If one is seeking to regenerate water to it's original state > after "cold fog" kinetic energy extraction then blacklight > experience suggests that UV is the best place to start. > > Frank Grimer > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 14 19:27:18 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3F2R7xp015994; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 19:27:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3F2R6Go015977; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 19:27:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 19:27:06 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002a01c54162$9d05a340$b0017841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: Laddermill wind generayor Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 21:27:03 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0026_01C54138.B3AF20A0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-99.8 required=4.0 tests=HTML_50_60,HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59281 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0026_01C54138.B3AF20A0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0027_01C54138.B3AF20A0" ------=_NextPart_001_0027_01C54138.B3AF20A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankKelvar properties include " cold flow" which shoots the material = down for use for cable. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0027_01C54138.B3AF20A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Kelvar properties include " cold flow" which shoots the material = down for=20 use for cable.
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_0027_01C54138.B3AF20A0-- ------=_NextPart_000_0026_01C54138.B3AF20A0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <002501c54162$9c83a200$b0017841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0026_01C54138.B3AF20A0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 14 20:03:13 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3F336sl026353; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 20:03:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3F335j7026339; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 20:03:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 20:03:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <003b01c54167$a20e72e0$b0017841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Taxes Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 22:02:59 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0037_01C5413D.B8B99DF0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-99.4 required=4.0 tests=HTML_MESSAGE,J_CHICKENPOX_54, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59282 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0037_01C5413D.B8B99DF0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0038_01C5413D.B8B99DF0" ------=_NextPart_001_0038_01C5413D.B8B99DF0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankNow that our esteemed IRS has the the ok to " farm out" tax = collection from scofflaws, we are in for some interesting changes by = business and individuals as every action has a reaction. In 1990's United Parcel Services (UPS) looked at the unbelievable = profits they were racking up on their charges for " insuring" a package. = The figure was so great they moved the operation " offshore" which = prompted IRS to sue them for "hiding " profits or some such. UPS = countersued the IRS which is in itself considered so dumb to be = unbelievable. Nobodywould dare sue the IRS unless they had a cash cow the size of Ft Knox. UPS had a gold mine and was not going to share it with uncle sam. = Shazzaam!! 8 years and millions in legal fees later... UPS WON the case.=20 Try getting UPS to pay for a uninsured lost shipment,.. waste of time.. = they limit claims to 100 bucks.. Even more fun is try getting UPS to = pay for an INSURED lost shipment.. lotsa luck.. you will be shunted to = an " contract claims service" What does this mean ?? It means the US Corporations can move offshore = with impunity.. and they do .. and they are..in droves. You just dont = see it reported.. because.. they dont have to.. They just start a = offshore enterprise and move the cash offshore and replace it in the US = with a piece of paper like AIG and the Insurance industry as learned by = Eliot Spitzer. Not even Buffett keeps any money in the US, its all Euros = and baskets of world currency. Perhaps that is the reason why Rummy.said that " deficits dont = matter".Last month the US trade deficit rose to 61 Billion for the month = and a curve leading to over 600 bil for the fiscal year..our leaders say = it dont matter but the only reason is because the rest of the world cant = stop it without bringing down the house of cards. Richard Richard =20 ------=_NextPart_001_0038_01C5413D.B8B99DF0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Now that our esteemed IRS has the the  ok to " farm out" tax=20 collection from scofflaws, we are in for some interesting changes by = business=20 and individuals as  every action has a reaction.
 
In 1990's United Parcel Services (UPS) looked at the unbelievable = profits=20 they were racking up on their charges for " insuring" a package. The = figure was=20 so great they moved the operation " offshore" which prompted IRS to sue = them for=20 "hiding " profits or some such. UPS countersued the IRS which is in = itself=20 considered so dumb to be unbelievable. Nobodywould dare sue the = IRS
unless they had a cash cow the size of Ft Knox.
 
UPS had a gold mine and was not going to share it with uncle sam.=20 Shazzaam!! 8 years and millions in legal fees later...
 
UPS WON the case.
 
Try getting UPS to pay for a uninsured lost shipment,.. waste of = time..=20 they limit claims to  100 bucks.. Even more fun is try getting UPS = to pay=20 for an INSURED lost shipment.. lotsa luck.. you will be shunted to an " = contract=20 claims service"
 
What does this mean ?? It means the US Corporations can move = offshore with=20 impunity.. and they do .. and they are..in droves. You just dont see it=20 reported.. because.. they dont have to.. They just start a offshore = enterprise=20 and move the cash offshore and replace it in the US with a  piece = of paper=20 like AIG and the Insurance industry as learned by Eliot Spitzer. Not = even=20 Buffett keeps any money in the US, its all Euros and baskets of world=20 currency.
 
Perhaps that is the reason why Rummy.said that " deficits dont = matter".Last month the US trade deficit rose to 61 Billion for the month = and a=20 curve leading to over 600 bil for the fiscal year..our leaders say it = dont=20 matter but the only reason is because the rest of the world cant stop it = without=20 bringing down the house of cards.
 
Richard
 
Richard
 

 

------=_NextPart_001_0038_01C5413D.B8B99DF0-- ------=_NextPart_000_0037_01C5413D.B8B99DF0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <003601c54167$a18aeb00$b0017841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0037_01C5413D.B8B99DF0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 14 21:05:47 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3F45b6b010172; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 21:05:42 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3F45aAG010154; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 21:05:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 21:05:36 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <425F3DAC.8020407 pobox.com> Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 00:06:04 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.5) Gecko/20050105 Debian/1.7.5-1 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Prius hybrids selling at a premium References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59283 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: >At 10:41 AM 4/14/5, Jed Rothwell wrote: > > > >>These percentages are much too high. I should not try to quote these things >>off the top of my head. Here are the corrected figures as reported in the >>New York Times a few years ago. >> >>Income group, Average pretax income, Total government tax receipts, As a >>percentage of income >>Bottom 20%, $7,946, $1449, 18% >>Second 20%, $20,319, $2847, 14% >>Middle 20%, $35,536, $5,622, 16% >>Fourth 20%, $56,891, $9,835, 17% >>Top 20%, $116,666, $21,623, 19% >> >> > > >This looks utterly bogus! Possibly more oriented around witholding than >actual tax maybe? It looks like no one bothered to even look at a form >1040. > >Consider this year for example (other years similar, just slightly >different numbers). A single person gets $7,950 in deductions right off, >so would not pay any federal taxes at all on $7,946. If the percentage is >based on taxable income and not adjusted gross income, then that percentage >is highly misleading. For example the first line of numbers for this year >should be: Bottom 20%, $7,946, $795, 5%, where the 5% is of actual income >of $7,946 + $7,950 = $15,896. > >After taking the deductions, the tax table this year applies the formula: > >$0 - $7150, 10% >$7150 - $29,050, 15% >$29,050 - $70,350, 25% >$70,350 - $146750, 28% > > Apples to oranges! Those are marginal rates; Jed's quoting the total take. You're looking at the derivative, Jed's talking about the result once you integrate it. And please note that Jed's income numbers stopped at $116,666. If you look at larger incomes, and ignore use of loopholes and fancy deductions (and the alternative minimum tax and yada yada yada), you'd presuamably see the percentage paid in rise toward the top marginal rate in the limit. And Jed was also looking at the total tax take, which is, of course, impossible to precisely divide up among the various income levels, but which surely hits the lower levels harder than an extrapolation from Schedule X would suggest. SS tax is regressive and starts at the first $1 -- AFACR there is no zero-bracket amount for SS. Many state taxes do the same thing. And if the table _really_ represented "Total government tax receipts" then it must have included sales tax too and there is just no way that can be anything except a coarse approximation, but in any case sales tax also starts at the first $1. >etc. > >HOWEVER, people making over $100,000 are increasingly getting it socked to >them at a much higher rate in the form of an alternative minimum tax. > Yeah, Congress refused to index it. Strange -- I'd've thought Bush's cronies would've wanted that done. > This >also does not include the possibility of Earned Income Credit (EIC) for the >low end wage earners. > >There is no way to get to $1,449 taxes on $7,946 actual income. All the >$1,449 would have to be state and local taxes and sales tax, > And social security, which is, what -- 7.5%? Don't forget that. > and that just >can't be 18%, unless maybe all the money were spent on booze, cigarettes, >and gasolene. > Postage, that's the ticket! It's 100% tax! And there's that gas-hog tax on V-8 engines. (Or is there?) How're guns and ammo taxed? > 8^) > >Regards, > >Horace Heffner > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 14 23:17:44 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3F6Hcof001250; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 23:17:38 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3F6HaIT001234; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 23:17:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 23:17:36 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 22:19:14 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Great pyramid... water pump? Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59284 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 3:27 PM 4/14/5, Mike Carrell wrote: >I would like to know what that program was, and who said it. Sorry, I just don't know. They actually made some of concrete on the show though. I seem to remember something about Alexander the Great being referenced in the show too, because people at some place he conquered, I think some part of Persia, used a similar concrete at that time, and the source material was still available in that area. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 14 23:25:30 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3F6PNof003249; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 23:25:27 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3F6PIAp003217; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 23:25:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 23:25:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 22:27:09 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: BLP implementation path Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59285 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 3:15 PM 4/14/5, Mike Carrell wrote: >In the current discussion of a post-peak-oil world, the usual alternatives >have been worked over thoroughly, and found unsatisfactory. Found unsatisfactory by whom? You must have been on another list. There are plenty of promising renewable and conservation alternatives, enough to dramaticaly reduce the cost of energy in the fairly near future, and to eventually eliminate the use of carbon based fossil fuels. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 15 05:39:26 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3FCdH8n009853; Fri, 15 Apr 2005 05:39:18 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3FCdGLp009844; Fri, 15 Apr 2005 05:39:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 05:39:16 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Re: Prius hybrids selling at a premium Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 8:39:09 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050415123909.FQVK1995.imf16aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: <3Amq0B.A.uZC.zX7XCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59286 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > > From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" > And social security, which is, what -- 7.5%? Don't forget that. Social security is 15.5% as any self-employed person knows. Corporations are required to pay half of their employees SS tax. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 15 06:41:55 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3FDfo8n014055; Fri, 15 Apr 2005 06:41:50 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3FDfmQs014041; Fri, 15 Apr 2005 06:41:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 06:41:48 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050415093831.0441bb90 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 09:41:42 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Prius hybrids selling at a premium In-Reply-To: <425F3DAC.8020407 pobox.com> References: <425F3DAC.8020407 pobox.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_552640==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59287 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_552640==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: >And please note that Jed's income numbers stopped at $116,666. If you >look at larger incomes . . . No, that is the average for the top 20% of the U.S. That's everyone, including Bill Gates. This data was from several years ago (not sure when). The amounts for all 5 groups has gone up since then. The top 20% has increased the most. - Jed --=====================_552640==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Stephen A. Lawrence wrote:

And please note that Jed's income numbers stopped at $116,666.  If you look at larger incomes . . .

No, that is the average for the top 20% of the U.S. That's everyone, including Bill Gates. This data was from several years ago (not sure when). The amounts for all 5 groups has gone up since then. The top 20% has increased the most.

- Jed
--=====================_552640==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 15 07:09:32 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3FE9I8n002882; Fri, 15 Apr 2005 07:09:19 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3FE9HuD002863; Fri, 15 Apr 2005 07:09:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 07:09:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20050415140907.48173.qmail web81101.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 07:09:07 -0700 (PDT) From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: Great pyramid... ? To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59288 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Many sites on web-ggole - pro and con: http://www.doernenburg.alien.de/alternativ/pyramide/pyr17_e.php From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 15 11:34:23 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3FIYB8n011333; Fri, 15 Apr 2005 11:34:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3FIY9Cc011292; Fri, 15 Apr 2005 11:34:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 11:34:09 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 10:35:55 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Gas Tax Resent-Message-ID: <056RVB.A.OwC.gkAYCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59289 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: When are people going to stop complaining and arguing and actually DO SOMETHING about energy. The following was a reasonable starting point when posted here over two years ago, and it is still a good way to use the modest gas tax proposed, or even a much larger gas tax, which is now much more appropriate as precious years have been frittered away and the situation is much worse: Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 15 12:19:00 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3FJIa8n029751; Fri, 15 Apr 2005 12:18:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3FJIZvh029738; Fri, 15 Apr 2005 12:18:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 12:18:35 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: <68059406-6e62-4963-9c17-e7c7278766e1> Message-ID: <056101c541ef$e6c8ddc0$ba59ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <20050415140907.48173.qmail web81101.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Great pyramid... ? Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 14:32:07 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59290 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones wrote: > Many sites on web-ggole - pro and con: > > http://www.doernenburg.alien.de/alternativ/pyramide/pyr17_e.php > I looked at the arguments presented, which are familiar to me. There are many more observations and conjectures which flow out of partial observations of features of the great pyramids. The visible features of Khufu on large and small scales can be used to support many conjectures about the construction method, but most do not accomodate the principal ones, namely: 2.3 million blocks formed and placed in 23 years. Average block weight, 2.5 tons, 24 x 24 x 50 inches. Many larger and thicker. Visible blocks, called backing stones, are placed to conform closely to pyramid form. Only copper tools were available for postulated dressing of quarried stone. Postulating a 300 workdays per year, 10 hours per day, blocks placed at two per minute. Quarrying limestone produces much waste, which is not found. The particular limestone at Giza disaggregates on soaking in water; no crushing needed. The casing stones, which covered the pyramids, fit closely, as by casting. The concrete slurry used for interior core stones could be transported by bucket brigades No traces massive ramps for hauling quarried blocks have been found Massive granite beams are at the top of the King's Chamber Two attempts to use ground penetrating radar from within the King's Chamber to locate possible hidden chambers in the mass of Khufu failed because of very weak returns. The pyrmids have high humidity inside, in an arid climate, even with no visitors. Both data point to high moisture content in the limestone, consistent with the Davidovits proposed chemistry. There are many more details in the Morris book and other books by Davidovits. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 15 12:19:05 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3FJIo8n029884; Fri, 15 Apr 2005 12:18:51 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3FJImrL029859; Fri, 15 Apr 2005 12:18:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 12:18:48 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: <68059406-6e62-4963-9c17-e7c7278766e1> Message-ID: <056401c541ef$e7b4eb70$ba59ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: Subject: Re: BLP implementation path Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 14:49:59 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59292 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace wrote: > At 3:15 PM 4/14/5, Mike Carrell wrote: > >In the current discussion of a post-peak-oil world, the usual alternatives > >have been worked over thoroughly, and found unsatisfactory. > > Found unsatisfactory by whom? You must have been on another list. I've been right here, watching the discussion flow by with good evaluations by you, Jed and others. There are enough energy technologies and resources in advanced stages of development [wind, solar] to say that humankind could exist with a civilization that is not quite as wasteful as our present one. One could even argue that the transition to that civilazation might be painful but in the end 'good for us'. Water is going to be a problem, and dispersion of mineral resources through manufacture will be another. Both take additional energy to resolve. Man could adapt, we have done so before and can do so again. Air cargo is a significant factor in international commerce, which gets fresh fruit from South America into our supermarkets in January. Dwindling oil reserves could be directed to such use [at what cost?] until a substitute for the jet engine [quite effiecient, even used on ships] is found. Without air cargo, we move back a half century, and life wasn't bad then. My point in the essay is that wind and solar have well known problems, and hydrogen storage and distribution on the scale necessary to sustain our present lifestyle is not attractive. However, BLP technologies offer a way forward which can work along with hydrogen produced from wind and solar sources. In transportaiton systems, it can greatly increase the energy yield from whatever hydrogen is stored, making that system more viable. BLP power modules can go everywhere there is water. Eventually it can be scaled both up and down. Wind and solar start looking good because they now have decades of persistant engineering invested in them, while BLP is just starting down that path; but its fundamental characteristics will carry it further. There can be a smooth evolution in a competitve market. Remember that BLP can get far more energy out of hydrogen than any other technology, which means that it can enable the "hydrogen economy" until it renders it obsolete by using water directly as a fuel without the intermediate processes. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 15 12:19:09 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3FJIi8n029817; Fri, 15 Apr 2005 12:18:45 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3FJIf83029783; Fri, 15 Apr 2005 12:18:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 12:18:41 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: <68059406-6e62-4963-9c17-e7c7278766e1> Message-ID: <056301c541ef$e76fcc20$ba59ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: Subject: Thanks from Peter Gluck Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 14:41:20 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0549_01C541C9.30547340" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59291 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0549_01C541C9.30547340 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable May I ask you to tell at Vortex=20 that I am grateful to those who answered and I understnad those who didn't. CF is so complex and I even have not asked why it is not reproducible ------=_NextPart_000_0549_01C541C9.30547340 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
May I ask you to tell at Vortex 
that I am grateful to those who = answered and I=20 understnad
those who didn't. CF is so complex = and I even=20 have not
asked why it is not=20 reproducible
------=_NextPart_000_0549_01C541C9.30547340-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 15 13:02:06 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3FK1s8n023022; Fri, 15 Apr 2005 13:01:55 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3FK1rfZ023016; Fri, 15 Apr 2005 13:01:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 13:01:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20601679.1113595308821.JavaMail.root wamui10.slb.atl.earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 16:01:48 -0400 (GMT-04:00) From: Jed Rothwell Reply-To: Jed Rothwell To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BLP implementation path Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Earthlink Zoo Mail 1.0 Resent-Message-ID: <1ZeMD.A.knF.x2BYCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59293 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mike Carrell writes: > My point in the essay is that wind and solar have well known problems, and > hydrogen storage and distribution on the scale necessary to sustain our > present lifestyle is not attractive. However, BLP technologies offer a way > forward which can work along with hydrogen produced from wind and solar > sources. Point taken. Wind and solar sure do have problems. Anyone who seriously advocates them, as I do, should acknowledge this. In many ways uranium fission would be better, especially with a next generation reactor. And if BLP can be made to work, I would be the first to agree it is even more promising than CF, in both the short term and long term. This is a strange analogy, but as I see it, the energy crisis resembles a frightening fatal illness, such as AIDS. Wind and solar are analogous to AZT and other viricides: they can bring us back to health and probably let us live out a natural life, but they will be very expensive and restrictive. We will have to put up with wind turbines everywhere you turn. We will never have HUGE amounts of energy for desalination megaprojects or projects put all highways underground. Energy will remain expensive forever. Something like BLP (or CF) on the other hand, would be like a magic cure for AIDS. Not only will it work overnight and kill every last virus, it will also restore the patient to the very peak of health at age 18; it will give him the strength of ten men; permanently remove the need for sleep, and give him X-ray vision and the ability to read two books simultaneously while driving a car and singing an aria. The only conventional energy source that offers the same kind of unlimited power and incredible capablities that BLP or CF offer is spaced-based solar. I guess that would be solar-to-microwave, in the latest incarnation. (Right?) And as I see it, the only way to get that is with a space elevator. I wish the people in Washington would take that seriously, instead of chasing off after expeditions to Mars. I wish they would ditch the International Space Station and get on with elevators instead. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 15 13:03:39 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3FK3V8n023912; Fri, 15 Apr 2005 13:03:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3FK3TAC023895; Fri, 15 Apr 2005 13:03:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 13:03:29 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: Another Challenge/ was RE: Gas Tax Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 16:05:14 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: <2scwk.A.D1F.Q4BYCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59294 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Horace, Well, lets see. I've spent a better part of my adult life trying to "do" something about this. Early on, my mentor and I founded a 501(c)(3) to fund our work in the new energy technologies. The response from donors was "this is commercial, go to the VC's". The response from the VC's were, "what can you do by next quarter?" Needless to say, but for an angel or two, it was hardly worth the airplane tickets. So I go to Wall St, and do the corporate thing for a few years to build a war chest. The 90's were a good time for that you know, after the "disastrous" leadership of Clinton, an 8 year economic boom made some actual money float around, and you saw that reflected in the people here and the discussion. So I could fund my own work, and things progressed. Sadly, the last 5 years of "fiscally sound" policy of our current leaders has produced an unending war for oil, an economy still in the toilet, with no signs of real recovery ( and did any of you really believe that trickle down theory crap? Even Reagan's advisors backed away from that one. ) Can't make much progress when the fishing hole is drying up, you know. Let's add to this, that real success is going to mean _giving_ the results away to the very people who created this debacle, and you can see the problem. Look, about 4 feet from where I sit writing software, a mountain of lab equipment and technology sits largely idle. Sure, it's a passion of mine, nothing is going to stop me from working, but the occasional stolen hours do not add up to much by each years end. The truly pathetic thing is how little money it takes to keep the work going, for the cost some of my wealthy friends spend on golf course memberships I could be doing this full time and making real progress. But the ugly truth is, NO ONE WANTS THIS. Let that one sink in, Horace. Everyone pays lips service, but when it comes right down to it, NO ONE WANTS THIS. You can't have a society based on selfishness and greed and expect much else. Posting grandiose plans for publicly funded energy research is just so much crap, frankly. I know you mean well, but do you think that what you are saying hasn't been said by 100's before you? Common sense and a recitation of the facts is not going to get the job done. Forget the politicians, they're too busy jamming feeding tubes down vegetables throats fighting to impress Thomas Malloy for his vote. Don't look to these folks for the answer, or even benign neglect. They're also part of the problem. I don't expect any handouts. I do what I do because it's my passion, I love to do research. And if someone believes that the future can be better and that parting with some pocket change can make it happen, I'll crank up another 501(c)(3) and things will in fact happen again. For now, it's the snails pace and ~100 troops a month dead in the desert. Sorry for ranting, but perhaps it's time for some of these truths to be uttered in public. It's not like I have anything to lose, 'cos it's not like anyone's got the balls to put some money on the table for this stuff. Some folks say that individuals can't make a difference. Bullshit. Individuals are the _only_ ones that ever make a difference. K. -----Original Message----- From: Horace Heffner [mailto:hheffner mtaonline.net] Sent: Friday, April 15, 2005 2:36 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Gas Tax When are people going to stop complaining and arguing and actually DO SOMETHING about energy. The following was a reasonable starting point when posted here over two years ago, and it is still a good way to use the modest gas tax proposed, or even a much larger gas tax, which is now much more appropriate as precious years have been frittered away and the situation is much worse: Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 15 15:13:19 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3FMD57v005446; Fri, 15 Apr 2005 15:13:10 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3FMD3B3005433; Fri, 15 Apr 2005 15:13:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 15:13:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <26811520.1113603180360.JavaMail.root wamui10.slb.atl.earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 18:12:58 -0400 (EDT) From: Jed Rothwell Reply-To: Jed Rothwell To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: "Nobody wants it" is what Martin says, too Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Mailer: Earthlink Zoo Mail 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j3FMD07v005389 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59295 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Keith Nagel makes a cri de coeur: > the work going, for the cost some of my wealthy friends > spend on golf course memberships I could be doing this full time and > making real progress. But the ugly truth is, NO ONE WANTS THIS. Let that > one sink in, Horace. Everyone pays lips service, but when > it comes right down to it, NO ONE WANTS THIS. You can't have > a society based on selfishness and greed and expect much else. Martin Fleischmann has told me the same sort of thing. "People don't want progress, and they shan't have it. They don't want to be bothered." I admire, like, and respect Martin immensely, but with all due respect, I think history shows he is wrong. Here are two vivid examples of what I have in mind: you can find hundreds more. In 1844, Congress voted to fund the first large-scale outdoor test of the telegraph. After months of difficult work, many changes of plan, and some vital improvements and discoveries by Ezra Cornell, it was finally built. There was a ceremony with a brass band. An adorable little girl got to choose the first message. Everyone applauded and went home. What happened next is, to the modern mind, astounding. Nothing happened! During the first few weeks the telegraph was in operation, exactly one customer used it for a lark, paying one cent. A few other customers trickled in. After a few months, Congress decided it was a waste of the taxpayer’s money, and as I recall they wrote it off and gave it to Cornell and others for pennies on the dollar. People had no idea how they might use a telegraph, because they had never experienced one. It did not occur to them that knowing what is happing in Baltimore at this moment might be useful, or that there might be some advantage to sending news to an associate in Baltimore in minutes instead of hours or days. Finally, months later, businessmen began to use it for things like stock quotes and shipping notices. Then a line was strung from Baltimore to New York, and news from Wall Street and the Gold Exchange became available instantly. THEN the telegraph took off like a rocket, and within a few years there were thousands of kilometers of lines, and Western Union was one of the largest, richest corporations on earth. Example 2, From an unpublished essay I wrote: The Myth That the Rich Jump In In 1860, Theodore Dehone Judah tried to raise money to build a railroad from California through the Rocky Mountains and across the Great Plains, the final link of the great transcontinental railroad. Judah was one of the greatest railroad designers in the United States. At that time railroads were undergoing the biggest economic boom in history. Judah was in San Francisco, one of the richest cities on earth, where gold field millionaires sometimes gambled away hundreds of thousands of dollars in an evening. . . . The Government was also concerned about cementing the bonds of trade, communication and loyalty with California, to keep it in the Union camp. It was anxious, because the State had many Southern emigrants, and Lincoln had barely carried it. The Republican party platform stressed that “a railroad to the Pacific Ocean is imperatively demanded by the interests of the whole country... the Federal Government ought to render immediate and efficient aid in its construction.†You might imagine that in a city chock full with millionaires, at the height of railroad boom, with a green light from the government, Judah would have no trouble attracting capital. You would be wrong. After months of effort, he had managed to raise $6,230 for a project that everyone knew would take tens of millions. One observer noted that “the project was thoroughly saturated and fairly dripping with elements of adventure and romance.†If it succeeded, it would surely be one of the most profitable ventures in history. Yet, not a single San Francisco businessman took the plans seriously. . . . I realize it seems astonishing, but the fact is, most people simply do not grasp what cold fusion is or how it might fix our problems. It isn't that they DON'T WANT IT; they just don't get it. They have no idea what they want! They respond the way the engineers and execs did at a computer company where I demonstrated one of the first microcomputers in the late 1970s: "That's a neat toy, but what's the point? What can you do with it? It has no hard disk. It is a thousand times slower than our smallest machine." (That is how the CEO of DEC reacted, too. DEC was the second largest computer company in the world but within a few year it went out of business, as did the company where I demonstrated the microcomputer.) Some people agree that CF might be real pay lip service to it, and they repeat what was written in the newspapers in 1989 about “miracles†and “clean energy.†But it does not sink in. When you talk to them, you see that they honestly cannot tell why CF would be much different or better than drilling for oil in Alaska, or fixing the spent-uranium storage problem. People are not stupid. But then again they are no smarter than the businessmen of 1844 or 1860 were. The telegraph then and CF today are simply too astounding, and too alien for people to believe or come to terms with. The transcontinental railroad seemed as improbable to the businessmen of 1860 as a space elevator does today. Even though a few experts claimed it could be built, investors could not bring themselves to take it seriously, or risk funding it. I think it actually cost more in inflation-adjusted dollars than a space elevator would be today, and the engineering difficulties were so daunting that most European engineers dismissed the project out of hand. American engineers, who had more experience with our incredible wilderness conditions, knew better. Finally, four investors in California came forward: Collis Huntington and Mark Hopkins who were in the hardwar business; Charles Crocker, a 39 year old businessman and investor, and 63 year old Leland Stanford. They invested because they had guts, obviously, but also because they were *not* experts in railroads. They had never built one, and they did not realize how difficult it would be. To succeed, they ended up borrowing something like $10 billion adjusted (or more - I don't recall the numbers), and paying off members of Congress with $200 million in bribes and kickbacks ($20 million unadjusted). I expect that if CF ever succeeds, the people who fund it will also be naive yet ruthless beginners from outside the energy industry. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 15 15:20:09 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3FMK27v010507; Fri, 15 Apr 2005 15:20:03 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3FMK02O010463; Fri, 15 Apr 2005 15:20:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 15:20:00 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=ItuAojdQIB6xPKZ3zmY9Q9TskTUmUgZRumi8Zoc4h7KoGKQU251mUhTE4oNBw6HVyesJjtcfTsQzmjl/nr4lCJvg47mbM2WV8QUZDBfoqv19cH4SGyGhfcMKTpahqgo0FNsylr6kSzWNfUePexmJ/a9R4ygWv28Zf6DfNJpCXCg= ; Message-ID: <20050415221946.16208.qmail web30203.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 15:19:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Kyle Mcallister Subject: Re: Prius hybrids selling at a premium To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: 6667 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <40dZa.A.FjC.O4DYCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59296 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- Terry Blanton wrote: > $27k to $32k depending on location and political > preference. :-) > > http://tinyurl.com/63t3m Bleah. I don't make enough to even begin to afford that. Most people out there drive used cars because they cannot afford a new one. Much less something like this. I'm wondering what the road salt is going to do to electrical windings in hybrid/electric vehicles driven here in Buffalo NY over time. --Kyle __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 15 15:55:58 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3FMtoqV021604; Fri, 15 Apr 2005 15:55:50 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3FMtn3U021599; Fri, 15 Apr 2005 15:55:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 15:55:49 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <14923038.1113605748031.JavaMail.root wamui10.slb.atl.earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 18:55:47 -0400 (EDT) From: Jed Rothwell Reply-To: Jed Rothwell To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Prius hybrids selling at a premium Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Earthlink Zoo Mail 1.0 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59297 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: > $27k to $32k depending on location and political > preference. :-) > > http://tinyurl.com/63t3m What do you mean $27,000? It says the base price is $21,000 or $19,000. (What does MSRP mean?) Plus you should get airbags for another $560. All the other stuff in packages 2 through 6 seems useless to me. I did not get a radio with my car, and if I lived in NY, I would not bother with airconditioning. Who needs 'em? If you must hear music, get a $20 Wall-Mart boom box. It ain't worth seven grand! Where do you get $32,000? Maybe I am missing something here. I have not bought many cars. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 15 16:12:10 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3FNBxqV028976; Fri, 15 Apr 2005 16:11:59 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3FNBvMn028950; Fri, 15 Apr 2005 16:11:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 16:11:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42604A35.1090303 bellsouth.net> Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 19:11:49 -0400 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040804 Netscape/7.2 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jed Rothwell CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Prius hybrids selling at a premium References: <14923038.1113605748031.JavaMail.root wamui10.slb.atl.earthlink.net> In-Reply-To: <14923038.1113605748031.JavaMail.root wamui10.slb.atl.earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59298 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: >(What does MSRP mean? > Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Price From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 15 16:28:53 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3FNSh7i009558; Fri, 15 Apr 2005 16:28:44 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3FNSgsu009546; Fri, 15 Apr 2005 16:28:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 16:28:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <21502305.1113607718990.JavaMail.root wamui10.slb.atl.earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 19:28:38 -0400 (EDT) From: Jed Rothwell Reply-To: Jed Rothwell To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: Re: Prius hybrids selling at a premium Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Earthlink Zoo Mail 1.0 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59299 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry explained to me that they can sell cars for more than the list price. I did not know that. It shows how little I know about cars. I suppose these high prices are caused by a shortage. They are planning to increase production, which should bring the price back down to the list price. Right? I have never paid anything but the list price for a car. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 15 18:20:05 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3G1Jw7i011338; Fri, 15 Apr 2005 18:19:59 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3G1Jvtc011331; Fri, 15 Apr 2005 18:19:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 18:19:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <410-22005461611935510 ix.netcom.com> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: aki ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.1.47.0 (Windows) From: "Akira Kawasaki" To: "vortex-l" Subject: FW: WHAT'S NEW Friday, April 15, 2005 Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 18:19:35 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: c4cc7f5f697e8746f66dc3a06d5924d8be2f56c782c7f0c06c51757e60a0a2057ef9f80aaf77e5a4350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 216.175.65.5 Resent-Message-ID: <6egE6.A._wC.9gGYCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59300 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > [Original Message] > From: What's New > To: Akira Kawasaki Date: 4/15/2005 12:37:30 PM Subject: WHAT'S NEW Friday, April 15, 2005 WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 15 Apr 05 Washington, DC 1. KANSAS: AAAS TURNS DOWN AN INVITATION TO DEBATE EVOLUTION. Last Friday, the Kansas State Department of Education invited the American Association for the Advancement of Science "to provide expert opinion regarding the mainstream scientific view of the nature of science," at a hearing on evolution. Drawing from the Santorum report language accompanying the No Child left Behind Act, the invitation says the curriculum "should help students understand the full range of scientific views that exist." Of course. The problem is that there is only one scientific view of the origin of species: Darwin's "natural selection." The hearing will be nothing but elaborately staged theater, with intelligent designers portrayed as scientists. The AAAS CEO, Alan Leshner, quite properly declined, "We see no purpose in debating a matter of faith." Neither does WN. But wait, isn't this the same Alan Leshner who defends the AAAS Dialog on Science, Ethics and Religion? In an editorial in the 11 Feb 05 issue of Science, Leshner argued that getting together with religious leaders to discuss the relation of scientific advances to other belief systems is helpful http://www.aps.org/WN/WN05/wn021105.cfm. 2. EPHEDRA: FEDERAL JUDGE IN UTAH LIFTS THE FDA BAN ON EPHEDRA. In 1998 WN exposed "Vitamin O" as ordinary salt water. The FDA was barred from taking action because salt water is a "natural" supplement. Later that year a UCSF study reported serious side effects from ephedra http://www.aps.org/WN/WN98/wn112798.cfm. Sold on the web as "herbal ecstacy," the FDA said ephedra, was also protected by the Dietary Supplement and Health Education Act (DSHEA). It's estimated that there are more adverse reactions to ephedra than all other herbal supplements combined, but not until a young major league pitcher became a victim did the FDA ban it http://www.aps.org/WN/WN04/wn010204.cfm. Ephedra was the only supplement banned since passage of DSHEA. Now there are none. The judge lifted the ban because the FDA had not determined a safe level. The FDA had not determined a safe level because it would be unethical to test a substance on people if it's known to be harmful. Once again there are calls to change DSHEA. 3. HOMEOPATHY AT 250: THE POWER OF MEDICINE THAT DOES NO HARM. My mail box has been crammed full of homeopathy stuff all week. Sunday was the 250th birthday of Samuel Hahnemann, the German physician who founded homeopathy in an age of purging and blood- letting. Hahnemann's "law of similars" would be a disaster, he not come up with his "law of infinitesimals." His diaper rash cure, for example, is rhus toxicodendron (poison ivy). Lucky for baby, the law of infinitesimals says to dilute it 200C, i.e. there isn't any. We excuse Hahnemann, who didn't have Avogadro's number (neither did Avogadro, it was determined 50 years later), but homeopaths know it, which goes beyond stupid. And homeopathy has its own DSHEA. In 1938 Senator Royal Copeland, a homeopath, exempted homeopathy from the Food, Drug and Cosmetics Act. After all, it would be like trying to show holy water had been blessed. THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND. Opinions are the author's and not necessarily shared by the University of Maryland, but they should be. --- Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.aps.org To subscribe, send a blank e-mail to: From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 15 19:22:02 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3G2Ls7i000927; Fri, 15 Apr 2005 19:21:55 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3G2LrCm000911; Fri, 15 Apr 2005 19:21:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 19:21:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <000c01c5422b$06f16f00$d3037841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: "Npbody wants it" is what Martin says,too Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 21:21:40 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0008_01C54201.1D51AE60"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-99.4 required=4.0 tests=HTML_MESSAGE,J_CHICKENPOX_43, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: <_yUAH.A.KO.AbHYCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59301 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C54201.1D51AE60 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0009_01C54201.1D533500" ------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C54201.1D533500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankJed, Your post is whats called a reality based observation because its so = true and real. Mentioning DEC brought back some of the 1970's to me. We bought our = first "computer" in 1972, a DEC PDP-8L. Plan was to use it in a design = study and demo for bidding a portion of a North Sea project for a crude = oil metering/ proving station. " Splat" !!! went the idea because the senior instrument people at = Phillips were old timers that grew up using pneumatic instrumentation = and considered electronics something out of a Mad magazine. Alas, Digital went the way of all flesh, later folded into Compaq and = disappeared somewhere between the water cooler and the elevator in = Compaq Center Houston. Ironic that HP did the same for Compaq. A nation that rises like the US, has been gifted with men of energetic = inspiration, The average age of a democratic form of a republic is never = more than 200 years. It is interesting to speculate " where" in the = world the next burst of energy will arise. I considered China as the = next powerhouse but have tabled that thought because China lack the = essential for greatness due to it being mired in socialism like the USA. Surprisingly, it may come again to the USA with its seething discontent = over the Iraq war and the political regime that has captured = Washington. These operators are Dems or Reps depending on the weather . = It will take some radical events to trigger such an event which is = looming as we watch with energy , banking and dont forget Wall Street. It is possible that if the Dow, Nasdeq and S&P fall below a trip point, = say below 10,000 ( Dow) we may see some interesting buttons pushed. The = last time it dropped below that figure I had a real concern they = wouldn't be able to stop it until it fell into the 3500 range. This time = around my intuition is screaming.. They better not let it fall below = 9000 over the next 90 day or June 30 reports may cause a slide nobody = on earth wants. China is doing their part to prop it but with the bunch = we have doing the thinking and leading for us.. I wouldn't count on = China. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C54201.1D533500 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Jed,
 Your post is whats called a reality based observation because = its so=20 true and real.
 
 Mentioning DEC brought back some of the 1970's to me. We = bought our=20 first "computer" in 1972, a DEC PDP-8L. Plan was to use it in a design = study and=20 demo for bidding a portion of a North Sea project for a crude oil = metering/=20 proving station.
 " Splat" !!! went the idea because the senior instrument = people at=20 Phillips were old timers that grew up using pneumatic instrumentation = and=20 considered electronics something out of a Mad magazine.
 Alas, Digital went the way of all flesh, later folded into = Compaq and=20 disappeared somewhere between the water cooler and the elevator in = Compaq Center=20 Houston. Ironic that HP did the same for Compaq.
 
A nation that rises like the US, has been gifted with men=20 of  energetic inspiration, The average age of a democratic = form of a=20 republic is never more than 200 years. It is interesting to speculate " = where"=20 in the world the next burst of energy will arise. I considered China as = the next=20 powerhouse but have tabled that thought because China lack the essential = for=20 greatness due to it being mired in socialism like the USA.
 
Surprisingly, it may come again to the USA  with its seething=20 discontent over the Iraq war and the political regime that has = captured =20 Washington. These operators are Dems or Reps depending on the=20 weather . It will take some radical events to trigger such an = event=20 which is looming as we watch with energy , banking and dont forget Wall=20 Street.
 
 It is possible that if the Dow, Nasdeq and S&P = fall below a=20 trip point, say below 10,000 ( Dow) we may see some interesting buttons = pushed.=20 The last time it dropped below that figure I had a real concern they = wouldn't be=20 able to stop it until it fell into the 3500 range. This time around my = intuition=20 is screaming.. They better not let it fall below 9000 over the next 90 = day or=20 June 30 reports may  cause a slide nobody on earth wants. China is = doing=20 their part to prop it but with the bunch we have doing the thinking and = leading=20 for us.. I wouldn't count on China.
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C54201.1D533500-- ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C54201.1D51AE60 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000701c5422b$061259a0$d3037841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C54201.1D51AE60-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 15 19:58:46 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3G2wa7i013764; Fri, 15 Apr 2005 19:58:37 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3G2wYG0013733; Fri, 15 Apr 2005 19:58:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 19:58:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42607F74.50300 pobox.com> Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 22:59:00 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.5) Gecko/20050105 Debian/1.7.5-1 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex Subject: Re: BLP implementation path References: <20601679.1113595308821.JavaMail.root wamui10.slb.atl.earthlink.net> In-Reply-To: <20601679.1113595308821.JavaMail.root wamui10.slb.atl.earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59302 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: (Jed, any idea why the reply field on your message come through pointing to you, not Vortex?) Jed Rothwell wrote: >The only conventional energy source that offers the same kind of unlimited power and incredible capablities that BLP or CF offer is spaced-based solar. I guess that would be solar-to-microwave, in the latest incarnation. (Right?) > Um -- I can't comment on the _latest_ incarnation, but I can say that the earliest version of space-based energy systems I'm aware of was indeed solar-to-microwave. The trouble with that is the antenna farms at the receptor end, and the downlink energy density. That's always been the trouble with it: with very low energy density in the downlink, it's safe, but you need enormous antenna farms to collect it (think solar energy: at low power densities the beam energy density will be comparable to sunlight). At high beam power densities you have a problem finding a spot for the beam that won't affect people or animals. From what I've read, hazards of stray microwaves seem more significant now than they did back in 1976 and opposition to high-intensity downlinks would probably be even stronger now than it would have been then. 30 years ago nobody had a clue how microwaves could possibly cause damage to living creatures, save by cooking them, so they were generally considered completely safe. As I recall, some time in the last decade it was finally determined that non-ionizing radiation _can_ affect chemical processes about which living things care, and the idea of a microwave downlink in somebody's back yard no longer seems so jolly. > And as I see it, the only way to get that is with a space elevator. > Or an L-5 colony, which, I seem to recall, was the original planned platform for putting the SSPS units in place :-) But then, how do you get the colony in place without an elevator? Uh.... Some of the ideas for collecting solar power from that era were kind of cool, actually. For a cheap mirror, for instance, you take a big blob of liquid plastic (melted or not polymerized yet, whatever) and blow a bubble in it. If you do it right, you can make the bubble re-e-e-a-lly big -- like a kilometer or so across (vacuum and microgravity are supposed to make this easy). Then after it hardens, you cut a small hole in the bubble, zip to the middle, drop a thermite bomb there, and leave before it goes off. The bomb goes off, aluminum and iron vapor go whizzing off in all directions only to be stopped by the plastic film, and Shazam, you have an aluminized (or iron-ized?) plastic sphere a kilometer across. Now carefully cut it in half, and separate the two hemispheres. Now you have the mirrors to build two solar furnaces, each a kilometer in diameter, and the material cost was almost nothing. Granted the mirrors aren't very good -- wicked spherical abberation -- but for solar concentration they're just fine. > I wish the people in Washington would take that seriously, instead of chasing off after expeditions to Mars. I wish they would ditch the International Space Station and get on with elevators instead. > > I dunno if an elevator will ever work, but I agree about the ISS -- a cash sink of that magnitude without an obvious purpose isn't doing anyone any good. It was scaled back so much that NASA itself said it should be scrapped rather than pursued at the current level, but it didn't happen (this was ~10 years ago; wish I could remember the quote). If we can't have an elevator, then even a sensible space plane would be better than what we've got now. Mars won't happen, anyway -- it's another of those wonderful unfunded projects of the current administration. All the big expenses are pushed to the future and little or no actual cash is disbursed in the present. But it sounds good in a speech. >- Jed > > > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 15 22:17:37 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3G5HUrt003206; Fri, 15 Apr 2005 22:17:30 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3G5HSpU003183; Fri, 15 Apr 2005 22:17:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 22:17:28 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BLP implementation path Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 15:17:19 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j3G5HPrt003153 Resent-Message-ID: <3C0nyB.A.rx.o_JYCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59303 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Horace Heffner's message of Thu, 14 Apr 2005 22:27:09 -0800: Hi, [snip] >At 3:15 PM 4/14/5, Mike Carrell wrote: >>In the current discussion of a post-peak-oil world, the usual alternatives >>have been worked over thoroughly, and found unsatisfactory. > >Found unsatisfactory by whom? You must have been on another list. There >are plenty of promising renewable and conservation alternatives, enough to >dramaticaly reduce the cost of energy in the fairly near future, and to >eventually eliminate the use of carbon based fossil fuels. True, but these don't lead to access to the solar system, while evolution of energy dense solutions does. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 15 23:51:30 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3G6pMrt001897; Fri, 15 Apr 2005 23:51:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3G6pKl8001881; Fri, 15 Apr 2005 23:51:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 23:51:20 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 22:53:14 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: BLP implementation path Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59304 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 3:17 PM 4/16/5, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >In reply to Horace Heffner's message of Thu, 14 Apr 2005 22:27:09 >-0800: >Hi, >[snip] >>At 3:15 PM 4/14/5, Mike Carrell wrote: >>>In the current discussion of a post-peak-oil world, the usual alternatives >>>have been worked over thoroughly, and found unsatisfactory. >> >>Found unsatisfactory by whom? You must have been on another list. There >>are plenty of promising renewable and conservation alternatives, enough to >>dramaticaly reduce the cost of energy in the fairly near future, and to >>eventually eliminate the use of carbon based fossil fuels. > >True, but these don't lead to access to the solar system, while >evolution of energy dense solutions does. > > >Regards, > > >Robin van Spaandonk There is nothing in the proposed plan that discriminates against "dense" vs ordinary energy solutions. In fact, funding for novel research is specifically encouraged. However, the key criteria for the bulk of the the fund investment is the demonstrated ability to show a return. In the new energy realm we have seen one "promising" thing after another fail to produce useful products, many turning out to be flim flam or wishful thinking. There is STILL not one useful overunity product. We can't really know if it will be one year before we see useful products or if it will be 50 years before a significant portion of our energy needs will be from "dense" sources, like even conventional hot fusion for example. The Energy Legacy Plan takes this into account, and the funds are allocated accordingly. Each year the best available options at the time are funded. One way or another, an income producing steam is generated along with the needed new sources of energy, and an exponential feedback is created. There is no sense at all in waiting for "pie in the sky" solutions when viable solutions are at hand, and we need every solution that can be found. We are long overdue for tapping the entrepreneurial might our societies offer. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 16 04:29:28 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3GBTJKS023245; Sat, 16 Apr 2005 04:29:20 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3GBTITh023233; Sat, 16 Apr 2005 04:29:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 04:29:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=ML/dZ6rqCjIPzXWYFgnzDQy1C/3dZmsaeMXQ2DwLgbcm7Nxi/zrS6bxuevJ34jWb; Message-ID: <410-220054616102913510 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Software Help For Joey's Reading Problem? Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 05:29:13 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940bef746a36d50d5ef774de49f8040db61350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.70 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59305 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Hi All. Joey is a great little guy (adopted at age 3 in 1995) who can see an exploded-view picture of a Swiss Watch or a Toyota Transmission, and if the parts are in front of him, can put one together in working order even if it takes a week of patient trial and error. He has an excellent speaking vocabulary. On the other hand if you give him an instruction sheet, even for the simplest gadget with no pictures he cannot read the words no matter how hard he tries. But, if you read out the words to him he can pick up on it and retain/apply it. When he listens to a pre-recorded digital voice story he can retain it quite well. Also he can do A+ work on science exams at school, if someone reads the questions to him. :-) I had purchased Dragon 8.0 Voice to Print software, with the thought that it might help him in visual-auditory development, but it is too selective in voice recognition. Is there software available that allows point-and-click word with pronunciation, that could help Joey learn to read? Thanks Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

Hi All.
 
Joey is a great little guy (adopted at age 3 in 1995)  who can see an exploded-view picture of a Swiss Watch or a Toyota Transmission, and if the parts are in front of him, can put one together in working order even if it takes a week of patient trial and error. He has an excellent speaking vocabulary.
 
On the other hand if you give him an instruction sheet, even for the simplest gadget with no pictures he cannot read the words no matter how hard he tries. But, if you read out the words to him he can pick up on it and retain/apply  it.
 
When he listens to a pre-recorded digital voice story he can retain it quite well. Also he can do A+ work on science exams at school, if someone reads the questions to him.  :-)
 
I had purchased Dragon 8.0 Voice to Print software, with the thought that it might help him
in visual-auditory development, but it is too selective in voice recognition.
 
Is there software available that allows point-and-click word with pronunciation,
that could help Joey learn to read?
 
Thanks
 
Frederick
 
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 16 05:40:30 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3GCeOKS009736; Sat, 16 Apr 2005 05:40:25 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3GCeNmj009729; Sat, 16 Apr 2005 05:40:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 05:40:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 04:42:11 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Software Help For Joey's Reading Problem? Resent-Message-ID: <0jyuJD.A.9XC.3eQYCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59306 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 5:29 AM 4/16/5, Frederick Sparber wrote: >Hi All. > >Joey is a great little guy (adopted at age 3 in 1995) who can see an >exploded-view picture of a Swiss Watch or a Toyota Transmission, and if >the parts are in front of him, can put one together in working order even >if it takes a week of patient trial and error. He has an excellent >speaking vocabulary. > >On the other hand if you give him an instruction sheet, even for the >simplest gadget with no pictures he cannot read the words no matter how >hard he tries. But, if you read out the words to him he can pick up on it >and retain/apply it. > >When he listens to a pre-recorded digital voice story he can retain it >quite well. Also he can do A+ work on science exams at school, if someone >reads the questions to him. :-) > >I had purchased Dragon 8.0 Voice to Print software, with the thought that >it might help him >in visual-auditory development, but it is too selective in voice recognition. > >Is there software available that allows point-and-click word with >pronunciation, >that could help Joey learn to read? Not what you are asking for, but I saw on the local news recently a segment on software in the form of point and click audio-visual games that are designed to train the brain to overcome severe dyslexia. It is apparently very effective, more effective and individualized than personal therapy because the software adjusts as progress is made and many more hours and more effective hours can be experienced than is possible for individual therapy. According to the newscast, some kids that can not even read at all learn very rapidly with the software, and apparently really enjoy the games, though the kids in the clips were younger than Joey. Biofeedback combined with computerized training algorithms can be very effective in training the brain to overcome wiring problems. My wife lost her balance capabilites this past year, becoming seriously dizzy. It is a terrible affliction. Her problem was diagnosed as a loss of brain function and balance was regained over a period of 6 weeks through biofeedback training using a computer with balance sensing pads. The news clips showed the dyslexia training software running on Macs. Another thought is print-to-voice software may be of use, and there is probably a lot of very specialized stuff, including scanners and software for the partially visually impaired, available from the Association for the Blind, and which is not available anywhere else. Joey's problem might be considered a visual impairment, because it is an eye-brain disfunction. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 16 07:41:07 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3GEewKS018386; Sat, 16 Apr 2005 07:40:59 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3GEetUv018328; Sat, 16 Apr 2005 07:40:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 07:40:55 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=oOF/+E6xJ+qxrr+EdtUj7k22TZgkkMYD+wO8WSIK/4bZ4R8GJPzZk9DtJ2HNajl+; Message-ID: <410-220054616134027720 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Software Help For Joey's Reading Problem? Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 08:40:27 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9403864d8914781211f238eaa071eab9789350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.159.208 Resent-Message-ID: <98J8fC.A.OeE.2PSYCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59307 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Horace Heffner wrote: > >At 5:29 AM 4/16/5, Frederick Sparber wrote: > >Hi All. > > > >Joey is a great little guy (just turned 13) who can see an > >exploded-view picture of a Swiss Watch or a Toyota Transmission, and if > >the parts are in front of him, can put one together in working order even > >if it takes a week of patient trial and error. He has an excellent > >speaking vocabulary. > > > >On the other hand if you give him an instruction sheet, even for the > >simplest gadget with no pictures he cannot read the words no matter how > >hard he tries. But, if you read out the words to him he can pick up on it > >and retain/apply it. > > > >When he listens to a pre-recorded digital voice story he can retain it > >quite well. Also he can do A+ work on science exams at school, if someone > >reads the questions to him. :-) > > > >I had purchased Dragon 8.0 Voice to Print software, with the thought that > >it might help him > >in visual-auditory development, but it is too selective in voice recognition. > > > >Is there software available that allows point-and-click word with > >pronunciation, > >that could help Joey learn to read? > > > Not what you are asking for, but I saw on the local news recently a segment >on software in the form of point and click audio-visual games that are >designed to train the brain to overcome severe dyslexia. It is apparently >very effective, more effective and individualized than personal therapy >because the software adjusts as progress is made and many more hours and >more effective hours can be experienced than is possible for individual >therapy. According to the newscast, some kids that can not even read at >all learn very rapidly with the software, and apparently really enjoy the >games, though the kids in the clips were younger than Joey. Biofeedback >combined with computerized training algorithms can be very effective in >training the brain to overcome wiring problems. My wife lost her balance >capabilities this past year, becoming seriously dizzy. It is a terrible >affliction. Her problem was diagnosed as a loss of brain function and >balance was regained over a period of 6 weeks through biofeedback training >using a computer with balance sensing pads. > >The news clips showed the dyslexia training software running on Macs. > >Another thought is print-to-voice software may be of use, and there is >probably a lot of very specialized stuff, including scanners and software >for the partially visually impaired, available from the Association for the >Blind, and which is not available anywhere else. Joey's problem might be >considered a visual impairment, because it is an eye-brain disfunction. > Thanks Horace. I found several web sites on Print to Voice Software (pricey) for the visually impaired. Surely there must be simple Print to Voice programs that would be helpful. Frederick > >Regards, > >Horace Heffner ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

Horace Heffner wrote:
>
>At 5:29 AM 4/16/5, Frederick Sparber wrote:
> >Hi All.
> >
> >Joey is a great little guy (just turned 13) who can see an
> >exploded-view picture of a Swiss Watch or a Toyota Transmission, and if
> >the parts are in front of him, can put one together in working order even
> >if it takes a week of patient trial and error. He has an excellent
> >speaking vocabulary.
> >
> >On the other hand if you give him an instruction sheet, even for the
> >simplest gadget with no pictures he cannot read the words no matter how
> >hard he tries. But, if you read out the words to him he can pick up on it
> >and retain/apply it.
> >
> >When he listens to a pre-recorded digital voice story he can retain it
> >quite well. Also he can do A+ work on science exams at school, if someone
> >reads the questions to him. :-)
> >
> >I had purchased Dragon 8.0 Voice to Print software, with the thought that
> >it might help him
> >in visual-auditory development, but it is too selective in voice recognition.
> >
> >Is there software available that allows point-and-click word with
> >pronunciation,
> >that could help Joey learn to read?
>
> 
> Not what you are asking for, but I saw on the local news recently a segment
>on software in the form of point and click audio-visual games that are
>designed to train the brain to overcome severe dyslexia. It is apparently
>very effective, more effective and individualized than personal therapy
>because the software adjusts as progress is made and many more hours and
>more effective hours can be experienced than is possible for individual
>therapy. According to the newscast, some kids that can not even read at
>all learn very rapidly with the software, and apparently really enjoy the
>games, though the kids in the clips were younger than Joey. Biofeedback
>combined with computerized training algorithms can be very effective in
>training the brain to overcome wiring problems. My wife lost her balance
>capabilities this past year, becoming seriously dizzy. It is a terrible
>affliction. Her problem was diagnosed as a loss of brain function and
>balance was regained over a period of 6 weeks through biofeedback training
>using a computer with balance sensing pads.
>
>The news clips showed the dyslexia training software running on Macs.
>
>Another thought is print-to-voice software may be of use, and there is
>probably a lot of very specialized stuff, including scanners and software
>for the partially visually impaired, available from the Association for the
>Blind, and which is not available anywhere else. Joey's problem might be
>considered a visual impairment, because it is an eye-brain disfunction.
>
Thanks Horace. 
I found several web sites on Print to Voice Software (pricey) for the
visually impaired.
Surely there must be simple Print to Voice programs that would be helpful.
 
Frederick
>
>Regards,
> 
>Horace Heffner
 
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 16 11:16:19 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3GIGBKS000434; Sat, 16 Apr 2005 11:16:12 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3GIGAA1000425; Sat, 16 Apr 2005 11:16:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 11:16:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: "Vortex" Subject: RE: "Nobody wants it" is what Martin says, too Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 14:18:14 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <26811520.1113603180360.JavaMail.root wamui10.slb.atl.earthlink.net> Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59308 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed relates to us: >Martin Fleischmann has told me the same sort of thing. >"People don't want progress, and they shan't have it. > They don't want to be bothered." Yes, you ( or perhaps Akira? ) posted an interview with Fleishmann that was quite candid and to the point. Maybe you have the link handy? I can't find it... The examples you gave are more applicable to reasonably well developed technology than to CF. It's more applicable to such things as the internet, space travel, and oddly enough, hot fusion. Everyone can point up at the sun and say "Look, a hot fusion reactor!" so it's not like there is any question it exists. Just like anyone in the 1800's could point to a telegraph or railroad before the transatlantic cable or the transcontiental rail. These are projects of scale; and in the case of the examples I gave of this century, were initially developed by the government ( and some of your examples as well ). The situation you describe is as it existed a decade ago, when P&F first appeared on the scene. The situation now is quite different. I would have thought the governments position on this was made pretty clear from the last review conducted. I would only add to this that I would not bother to approach the VC with a proposal for cold fusion, for the simple reason that you cannot receive patent protection. The "what can you do by next quarter" thing is a burden but not an entirely unreasonable one, and some folks are more forward thinking than others. OTOH, nobody looking to invest money wants a guaranteed 100% loss, which is the case here so long as you cannot protect the results from the first person who comes along after your success. That's a show stopper. That's what I meant when I wrote "real success is going to mean giving it away". No patent = no money. I would add that I really like and support Horaces plan; it's not the plan I take issue with. It's just that our elected representatives have a clear agenda with respect to energy, and that would be oil and coal. Perhaps if we get better representation, things will change. I know I mentioned John McCain has championed this issue in the past, but as the designated whipping boy of the party, it seems unlikely he'll be of much help. K. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 16 11:25:28 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3GIPLKS003049; Sat, 16 Apr 2005 11:25:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3GIPKNb003032; Sat, 16 Apr 2005 11:25:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 11:25:20 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: "Vortex" Subject: RE: Software Help For Joey's Reading Problem? Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 14:27:06 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <410-220054616102913510 earthlink.net> Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59309 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Fred, Just talked to my girlfriend about this, she sez "Sounds like some kind of left parietal lobe brain damage. Have you had the boy evaluated? What did they say?" She showed me a text on neurobiology that described the symptoms exactly as you say, very strange how specific the brain is. As crazy as it sounds, when we talked about it, I said "Blind people have the same sort of problem, but for the location of the damage. Perhaps Fred could do an end run around the very specific damaged area of the brain responsible for glyph/sound mapping and teach the boy to read braille." It's a thought. It'll certainly help Joey to navigate the world even with the disability. An afternoons sitting with the boy should tell you if this would work. Heck, he'll probably get a big kick out of it. There, that's a good vortex solution for ya (grin). If front door is locked, try the chimney... K. -----Original Message----- From: Frederick Sparber [mailto:fjsparber earthlink.net] Sent: Saturday, April 16, 2005 6:29 AM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Software Help For Joey's Reading Problem? Hi All. Joey is a great little guy (adopted at age 3 in 1995) who can see an exploded-view picture of a Swiss Watch or a Toyota Transmission, and if the parts are in front of him, can put one together in working order even if it takes a week of patient trial and error. He has an excellent speaking vocabulary. On the other hand if you give him an instruction sheet, even for the simplest gadget with no pictures he cannot read the words no matter how hard he tries. But, if you read out the words to him he can pick up on it and retain/apply it. When he listens to a pre-recorded digital voice story he can retain it quite well. Also he can do A+ work on science exams at school, if someone reads the questions to him. :-) I had purchased Dragon 8.0 Voice to Print software, with the thought that it might help him in visual-auditory development, but it is too selective in voice recognition. Is there software available that allows point-and-click word with pronunciation, that could help Joey learn to read? Thanks Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 16 12:54:49 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3GJsXKS005294; Sat, 16 Apr 2005 12:54:34 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3GJsWXs005287; Sat, 16 Apr 2005 12:54:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 12:54:32 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42616D74.1090107 bellsouth.net> Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 15:54:28 -0400 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040804 Netscape/7.2 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Prius hybrids selling at a premium References: <21502305.1113607718990.JavaMail.root wamui10.slb.atl.earthlink.net> In-Reply-To: <21502305.1113607718990.JavaMail.root wamui10.slb.atl.earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <6_QG9.A.jSB.41WYCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59310 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: >Terry explained to me that they can sell cars for more than the list price. I did not know that. It shows how little I know about cars. > >I suppose these high prices are caused by a shortage. They are planning to increase production, which should bring the price back down to the list price. Right? I have never paid anything but the list price for a car. > Production is increasing. The wait time used to be six months for a Prius. It is now two months. As far as price, I paid $500 over list for my Scion xB. The dealer says that it's not because of demand; but, that they require more profit than Scion is paying. I am pleased with the Scion. I actually got 34 mpg on my last tank, the EPA figure listed for highway mileage. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 16 14:41:08 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3GLexKS006763; Sat, 16 Apr 2005 14:40:59 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3GLev0B006745; Sat, 16 Apr 2005 14:40:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 14:40:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <18784670.1113687655352.JavaMail.root wamui06.slb.atl.earthlink.net> Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 17:40:55 -0400 (GMT-04:00) From: Jed Rothwell Reply-To: Jed Rothwell To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: Google "Scholar" generating traffic to LENR-CANR Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Earthlink Zoo Mail 1.0 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59311 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Google is offering the beta version of a useful new service called Google Scholar: http://scholar.google.com/ This is an index of scientific papers, with new access methods that are designed for academic papers and citations. It has started generating a lot of traffic into LENR-CANR. I shall read about it and see if I can improve the presentation of our abstracts. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 16 15:03:13 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3GM35KS012623; Sat, 16 Apr 2005 15:03:06 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3GM34pY012606; Sat, 16 Apr 2005 15:03:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 15:03:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <9534304.1113688983388.JavaMail.root wamui06.slb.atl.earthlink.net> Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 18:03:03 -0400 (GMT-04:00) From: Jed Rothwell Reply-To: Jed Rothwell To: Vortex Subject: RE: "Nobody wants it" is what Martin says, too Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Earthlink Zoo Mail 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j3GM32KS012581 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59312 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Keith Nagel wrote: > The examples you gave are more applicable to reasonably well developed > technology than to CF. It's more applicable to such > things as the internet, space travel, and oddly enough, hot fusion. That's true. CF has the additional heavy disadvantages that people do not believe it exists, and it is difficult to reproduce. > I would only add to this that I would > not bother to approach the VC with a proposal for cold fusion, for > the simple reason that you cannot receive patent protection. This is a serious problem, but it may be somewhat exaggerated. As far as I know, von Neumann computer architecture was never patented, and it was specific enough that it might have been. It is not like a force of nature or a mathematical algorithm. It is the core technology for computers, and all computers still use it in a recognizable form, just as all piston ICE still use the basic techniques. (Don't they still all use the Otto cycle?) Even though the core technology of the computer was not patented, companies still found ways to make intellectual property and profits with computers during the 1950s and '60s. The core was not patented but there was plenty of room for intellectual property in the peripherals, such as a specific type of ALU or hard disk. With CF this would be something like the specific alloy, or the configuration of the cell, or the heat sink, thermoelectric device, or what-have-you. It seems to there is plenty of room to innovate within the basic technique of forming a hydride. I will grant, the function of a computer is more complex than that of a CF device, and computers may have more ramifications likely to give rise to intellectual property. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 16 20:37:17 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3H3bBKS003167; Sat, 16 Apr 2005 20:37:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3H3bA6I003157; Sat, 16 Apr 2005 20:37:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 20:37:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 19:38:56 -0800 To: "vortex-l" From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Software Help For Joey's Reading Problem? Resent-Message-ID: <4vOe6.A.Rx.lndYCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59313 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 8:40 AM 4/16/5, Frederick Sparber wrote: >I found several web sites on Print to Voice Software (pricey) for the >visually impaired. >Surely there must be simple Print to Voice programs that would be helpful. I think everything from the Association for the Blind is free, including equipment. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 16 21:23:05 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3H4MvKS017969; Sat, 16 Apr 2005 21:22:57 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3H4Mudg017954; Sat, 16 Apr 2005 21:22:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 21:22:56 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 20:24:47 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: BLP implementation path Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59314 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 2:49 PM 4/15/5, Mike Carrell wrote: >Man could adapt, we have done so before and can do so again. Air cargo is a >significant factor in international commerce, which gets fresh fruit from >South America into our supermarkets in January. Dwindling oil reserves could >be directed to such use [at what cost?] until a substitute for the jet >engine [quite effiecient, even used on ships] is found. Without air cargo, >we move back a half century, and life wasn't bad then. If everything but jet fuel is replaced with renewables then oil products should be extremely economical. Jet fuel should be cheap. However, there is no reason a suitable jet fuel can not be economically made from biological sources, like steam reforming of waste fats and garbage, etc. In addition, if a true renewable hydrogen economy is develeoped, and hydrogen is cheap, a synthetic jet fuel made from hydrogen and renewable carbon sources is also a possibility. Also of possible interim interest is the fact that ship turbines can coverted to run on LNG, and LNG fuel would provide a low pollution risk. > >My point in the essay is that wind and solar have well known problems, and >hydrogen storage and distribution on the scale necessary to sustain our >present lifestyle is not attractive. Well this is true if you find the Hirsch study credible, for example. It is a study on the effect of peak oil on US transportaiton fuels noted here on vortex in earlier discussions. However, that study seems to ignore or at least inadequately address the potential role of renewables, while focusing on the use of coal and oil, as if a global warming issue did not exist. Further, it shamelessly plugged topics for further "study". It appeared fully sanitized to fit the present political paradigm, and looked like typical "consulting" where the conclusions are all known before the study. OTOH, it does point out that if nothing is done we could get caught in a real jam for 10-20 years, and that may be a big surprise to many, so I guess I'm being a bit harsh about what I perceive to be the study's short comings, though I guess the approach of pointing out the obvious problem with an oil peak *is* a powerful reason to throw big money at big oil and coal. >However, BLP technologies offer a way >forward which can work along with hydrogen produced from wind and solar >sources. In transportaiton systems, it can greatly increase the energy yield >from whatever hydrogen is stored, making that system more viable. [snip] >Mike Carrell The problem with BLP commercial products is they are still just pie in the sky, and have been for years. Thee have been various other apparently promising companies, but obviously nothing has yet materialized. Meanwhile the US could have been moving forward on a strong renewables program, like various other countries have. A properly funded renewables agency operating under the guidelines proposed in The Energy Legacy Plan can move forward on a rational basis, starting now, without continued debate by congress, political candidates, and "experts." Once formed, the decision by congess mainly involves only how much money should be provided from time to time, not all the technical details. If a breakthrough product is developed by BLP or anyone else along the way, the funding would end up channeled appropriately. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 17 00:10:09 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3H7A0fa007083; Sun, 17 Apr 2005 00:10:00 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3H79wga007068; Sun, 17 Apr 2005 00:09:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 00:09:58 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "John Steck" To: Subject: RE: OFF TOPIC Taxes Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 02:12:03 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 In-Reply-To: Resent-Message-ID: <1Vsc0.A.YuB.GvgYCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59315 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Yes, take a look. These evil corporations are responsible for generating ALL those taxable wages and investment dividends. More taxes on the wealth producers means less jobs they can support, less jobs is less taxes paid in. Tapping the few will not make up for the loss of the many... that's why progressive tax systems are bad. You want things truly fair... flat tax with NO deductions. By nature of percentage, you make more, you pay more. No penalty for success. Will never happen though. Too many lawyers, accountants, and bleeding hearts that have a vested interest in sustaining our confusing and insanely convoluted system. The mice are in charge of the cheese factory. -j -----Original Message----- From: leaking pen [mailto:itsatrap gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2005 3:35 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Taxes terry, yes, thats with eic. the numbers were worse before it was put into place btw, if you want to be truly sickened... look at corporate taxes. corporations recieve about 80 percent of the benefits given out in monetary form by the government, and pay about 10 percent of the taxes. ignore private taxes, look at what these so called capitalist companies are doing. On 4/14/05, Terry Blanton wrote: > > > > > From: Jed Rothwell > > > I assure you there is. I know several dirt-poor people who live on that > > much, and pay that much in taxes. > > I don't think these figures include EIC, a negative tax for the poor, ie an income redistribution plan. > > -- "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.12 - Release Date: 05/04/15 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 17 08:43:36 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3HFhTqf009810; Sun, 17 Apr 2005 08:43:29 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3HFhM4g009775; Sun, 17 Apr 2005 08:43:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 08:43:22 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Software Help For Joey's Reading Problem? X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: ID = 774fb627c34c68b9943f8b0c60c08dc1 Reply-To: michael.foster excite.com From: "Michael Foster" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: michael.foster excite.com X-Mailer: PHP Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050417154315.0FCDD3E23 xprdmailfe6.nwk.excite.com> Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 11:43:15 -0400 (EDT) Resent-Message-ID: <3a2og.A.rYC.ZQoYCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59316 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 8:40 AM 4/16/5, Frederick Sparber wrote: >I found several web sites on Print to Voice Software (pricey) for the >visually impaired. >Surely there must be simple Print to Voice programs that would be helpful. There is a way to this, and the price is right. It's free. It involves a number of steps, but this boy might enjoy doing it. Microsoft Reader has a computer text to voice feature. Of course, this requires an editable text file. So if you have a printed source, it would involve using the OCR feature of a scanner. These are a lot better than they used to be. After the printed source is OCR'd into Word, you use the Microsoft Reader plugin to convert it to Reader file. You then open the file in Reader and use the speech feature. It highlights the word being read and will go at any speed including one word at a time. The voice is none too pleasing, but it does work. The Microsoft Reader program and plugin for Word are free downloads. There must be other text to speech freeware programs out there as well. Don't know if this will be much help. M. _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 17 09:03:36 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3HG3Rqf018407; Sun, 17 Apr 2005 09:03:27 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3HG3Qmb018392; Sun, 17 Apr 2005 09:03:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 09:03:26 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050417170412.00689248 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 17:04:12 +0000 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: ...water into wine... Resent-Message-ID: <4vuPiC.A.TfE.NjoYCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59317 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I have been following up on the possibility that the proximity of c to the integer three times ten to an integral power might not be the coincidence it logically seems but a manifestation of a subtle connection between water and light. Crazy - possibly - but certainly fun - and a way of painlessly learning a lot more about the properties of water and light. 8-) One thing I remember from schooldays is that the refractive index for water is about 4/3. Here again we have a suggestive ratio, albeit only spot on for orange light at about 600 nm. There is some very useful stuff on refractive indices and the like at the following URL http://www.philiplaven.com/p20.html I found the most interesting graph was Figure 6 which shows the imaginary part of the refractive index, i.e. the measure of absorption. The really significant bit it the way it peaks at around 100 nm (shades of blacklight, eh!). It is not until the wavelength reaches the mm range that the imaginary part again comes as close to the real part. There is some intriguing, stuff on other pages of the site as well. For instance this rather macabre example of a glory: ================================================ http://www.philiplaven.com/p2c.html Fig. 4 may be the first image of a glory observed from space. It was recorded on 28 January 2003 by the MEIDEX (Mediterranean Israeli Dust Experiment) instrument on board the space shuttle Columbia - which tragically burnt up on re-entry into the Earth's atmosphere on 1 February 2003 resulting in the deaths of all 7 members of the crew. The MEIDEX Science Team at Tel Aviv University found this fascinating image whilst examining the results of MEIDEX and suggests that the term "Astronaut's glory" should be used "in honor of our friends from the Columbia crew". ================================================ Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 17 10:53:21 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3HHr7qf022931; Sun, 17 Apr 2005 10:53:08 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3HHr6e2022910; Sun, 17 Apr 2005 10:53:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 10:53:06 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: "Vortex" Subject: RE: "Nobody wants it" is what Martin says, too Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 13:55:01 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <9534304.1113688983388.JavaMail.root wamui06.slb.atl.earthlink.net> X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59318 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Jed, You write: >This is a serious problem ( lack of patentability ), but it may be somewhat exaggerated. Oh, but it gets worse when you follow though. Remember, it's not a new field, and as your own database attests, there is plenty of prior art. Some claimants already have applications filed before the boom was lowered. So you somehow get a device to market ( presumably you do this outside the country in a place where IP laws are weak ). Now the US patent office can't deny the reality of the device for long after that, so they must begin again to grant patents. But to whom? You? After all, shouldn't P&F take priority? They filed long before you, in fact you're probably infringing on their IP. If you want to sell in America ( 25% of worlds oil consumed daily ) you're going to have to start paying other people. How many? Who knows, thanks to the patent office. A great train wreck of reasonable claimants ensues, and your investor's heads start exploding (ouch). This "rejecting CF patents by default" position of the patent office is a stake in the heart of the field. It's also very disingenuous, as even a superficial perusal of the database will turn up all sorts of bogus and unworkable patents. That fact doesn't bother me; it's for industry to ultimately decide what's useful and what's not. But by "protecting" us from these patents they've created quite a monster. You suggest patenting around the problem area; I don't know how workable or reasonable that is. It's certainly done in fields where patents can be granted; but this situation is sort of unique. BLP is a good example of how one might try to do an end run around the system; but you can see the problems Randy Mills has had at the patent office as a result. Hey, he was rejected on a chemical patent where he was willing to provide _physical samples_ of the chemicals for testing. This is disturbing. BTW, Mike Carrell has mentioned that Randy is filing some monster new application. Any word on that, Mike? K. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 17 10:57:41 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3HHvWqf024191; Sun, 17 Apr 2005 10:57:32 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3HHvUqj024173; Sun, 17 Apr 2005 10:57:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 10:57:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Software Help For Joey's Reading Problem? X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: ID = 774fb627c34c68b9943f8b0c60c08dc1 Reply-To: michael.foster excite.com From: "Michael Foster" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: michael.foster excite.com X-Mailer: PHP Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050417175724.770883E1F xprdmailfe6.nwk.excite.com> Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 13:57:24 -0400 (EDT) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59319 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- On Sun 04/17, Terry Blanton < commengr bellsouth.net > wrote: > For that matter, Microsoft Narrator is already loaded on many operating > systems. See: > Start => Programs => Accessories => Accessibility => Narrator Yes, but it doesn't highlight the individual words which would seem to be a requirement for Joey. M. _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 17 11:55:30 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3HIspqf009948; Sun, 17 Apr 2005 11:54:52 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3HIsnxB009908; Sun, 17 Apr 2005 11:54:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 11:54:49 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 10:56:42 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: BLP implementation path Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59320 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 2:49 PM 4/15/5, Mike Carrell wrote: [snip] > >My point in the essay is that wind and solar have well known problems, and >hydrogen storage and distribution on the scale necessary to sustain our >present lifestyle is not attractive. In responding to this sentence earlier I got sidetracked by concerns over the biases of the Hirsch report on the effect of peak oil on transportation fuels, and did not complete my thoughts. The problem with the conclusion the use of renewables will be unattractive, and analyses like the Hirsch report which simply ignores them, is that not everyone is working from the same base assumptions. Also, there are significant new developments in energy production technology with increasing frequency, whcih change the base assumptions. It seems to me clear that we do not have to fully convert to a hydrogen economy to make dramatic reductions in the cost of energy and simultaneously eliminate or reduce atmospheric contamination with greenhouse gasses and other materials. There are useful interim or long term actions or developments which can be made starting now, including: 1. Solar towers, 2. Sterling engine based solar energy collection, 3. Bi-thermal (combined liquid air - thermal well) energy storage, 4. Improved battery technology used in transportation, 5. Silicon based energy storage and energy transport, 6. Nitrogen based energy storage and transport, 7. Wind power generation on mountains where the big energy is, 8. Biomass and waste conversion to liquid fuels, 9. Improved economics of conventional wind mills, 10. Development of advanced nuclear reactors, 11. Development of high efficiency DC power transmission systems, 12. Much improved and more widely used insulation materials (aerogel, etc.), 13. Improved solar arrays, 14. Threats to the global economy and financial markets, 15. Increased public awareness there is a serious problem at hand, 16. Increased conservation as a result of public awareness and energy cost, 17. Possibly, at long last, some money for novel energy research. The Energy Legacy Plan, or a similar balanced approach, can help bring all this to early fruition. In addition, simultaneous development of existing known resources, like coal, clathrates, and other vast methane reserves will also help at least mitigate the peak oil problem for a while. We should also expect oil finds in the southern hemisphere and other places which have been relatively untapped, and possibly shale oil or other known oil sources will be tapped. While there are indeed big costs associated with energy development, the cash flow associated with massive renewables creation also represents great opportunity, and the human labor required could be the basis of a massive economic boom. The costs of renewable development are offset by resulting energy abundance and thus overall energy price drops. In fact, the greatest enemy to renewables production and conservation has been energy price fluctuation. Perhaps variable energy taxation aimed in part at smoothing the cost of energy would be or would have been useful. Certainly the global development of reliable cheap clean energy will ultimately greatly enhance the world economy and world peace. It can not happen too soon. The ulitmate crisis is not peak oil, but rather peak water. We will need cheap energy to obtain the water and thus food the world needs. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 17 12:25:05 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3HJOgqf026727; Sun, 17 Apr 2005 12:24:46 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3HJOe9D026713; Sun, 17 Apr 2005 12:24:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 12:24:40 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <10602756.1113765872094.JavaMail.root wamui04.slb.atl.earthlink.net> Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 15:24:31 -0400 (GMT-04:00) From: Jed Rothwell Reply-To: Jed Rothwell To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BLP implementation path Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Earthlink Zoo Mail 1.0 Resent-Message-ID: <1vduKC.A.VhG.4frYCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59321 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner writes: > It seems to me > clear that we do not have to fully convert to a hydrogen economy to make > dramatic reductions in the cost of energy . . . Certainly not. In fact, if things like HTSC power transmission and better batteries for cars and power smoothing become available, we may not need hydrogen at all. Hydrogen solves three problems: power transmission, vehicle power, and power smoothing (generating electricity at the moment you need it, not when the wind happens to be blowing). > 4. Improved battery technology used in transportation, [and to smooth power] Wind or solar power cannot expand beyond 15% of the total without something like this. > 9. Improved economics of conventional wind mills, You mean wind turbines, right? Not actual mills. Let's not use the obsolete terminology, except to refer to that actual use of mechanical power. That might be a good idea for some applications, such as water pumps. Hmmm . . . I wonder if you could make a combined wind-hydroelectric plant? Pump water uphill, generate power going down. It would be a good way to smooth demand. But it would probably be grossly inefficient. > . . . > 16. Increased conservation as a result of public awareness and energy cost, > 17. Possibly, at long last, some money for novel energy research. Add somewhere: 18. Combined heat-and-power electricity (co-generation). 19. Hybrid automobiles, trucks and railroad trains. (Railroads are already somewhat hybrid.) - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 17 13:29:59 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3HKTmqf019845; Sun, 17 Apr 2005 13:29:49 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3HKTkca019825; Sun, 17 Apr 2005 13:29:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 13:29:46 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <22913176.1113769783913.JavaMail.root wamui01.slb.atl.earthlink.net> Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 16:29:43 -0400 (GMT-04:00) From: Jed Rothwell Reply-To: Jed Rothwell To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BLP implementation path Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Earthlink Zoo Mail 1.0 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59322 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner writes: > If everything but jet fuel is replaced with renewables then oil products > should be extremely economical. Jet fuel should be cheap. However, there > is no reason a suitable jet fuel can not be economically made from > biological sources, like steam reforming of waste fats and garbage, etc. This is called thermal depolymerization. I have some refs and quotes about in Chapter 13 of the book. With present day technology this costs more than natural oil, and it takes a lot of energy. However, it is a useful technology because it also gets rid of waste. Perhaps it will become more cost-effective in the future. If oil is only used for jet fuel and chemical feedstock, that would eliminate ~78% of demand, making oil and jet fuel dirt cheap. By the way, improved batteries for automobiles would be much more efficient than most hydrogen production pathways (except natural gas conversion). See: http://www.lenr-canr.org/EnergyOverview.pdf - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 17 14:09:39 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3HL9Mqf000430; Sun, 17 Apr 2005 14:09:23 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3HL9KrX000406; Sun, 17 Apr 2005 14:09:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 14:09:20 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: Message-ID: <146801c54391$b239ab90$ba59ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: Subject: Re: BLP implementation path Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 16:55:28 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59323 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace wrote: > At 2:49 PM 4/15/5, Mike Carrell wrote: > > [snip] > > > >My point in the essay is that wind and solar have well known problems, and > >hydrogen storage and distribution on the scale necessary to sustain our > >present lifestyle is not attractive. > > In responding to this sentence earlier I got sidetracked by concerns over > the biases of the Hirsch report on the effect of peak oil on transportation > fuels, and did not complete my thoughts. > > The problem with the conclusion the use of renewables will be unattractive, > and analyses like the Hirsch report which simply ignores them, is that not > everyone is working from the same base assumptions. Also, there are > significant new developments in energy production technology with > increasing frequency, whcih change the base assumptions. It seems to me > clear that we do not have to fully convert to a hydrogen economy to make > dramatic reductions in the cost of energy and simultaneously eliminate or > reduce atmospheric contamination with greenhouse gasses and other > materials. There are useful interim or long term actions or developments > which can be made starting now, including: > > 1. Solar towers, > 2. Sterling engine based solar energy collection, > 3. Bi-thermal (combined liquid air - thermal well) energy storage, > 4. Improved battery technology used in transportation, > 5. Silicon based energy storage and energy transport, > 6. Nitrogen based energy storage and transport, > 7. Wind power generation on mountains where the big energy is, > 8. Biomass and waste conversion to liquid fuels, > 9. Improved economics of conventional wind mills, > 10. Development of advanced nuclear reactors, > 11. Development of high efficiency DC power transmission systems, > 12. Much improved and more widely used insulation materials (aerogel, etc.), > 13. Improved solar arrays, > 14. Threats to the global economy and financial markets, > 15. Increased public awareness there is a serious problem at hand, > 16. Increased conservation as a result of public awareness and energy cost, > 17. Possibly, at long last, some money for novel energy research. > > > The Energy Legacy Plan, or a similar balanced approach, can help bring all > this to early fruition. > > In addition, simultaneous development of existing known resources, like > coal, clathrates, and other vast methane reserves will also help at least > mitigate the peak oil problem for a while. We should also expect oil finds > in the southern hemisphere and other places which have been relatively > untapped, and possibly shale oil or other known oil sources will be tapped. > > While there are indeed big costs associated with energy development, the > cash flow associated with massive renewables creation also represents great > opportunity, and the human labor required could be the basis of a massive > economic boom. The costs of renewable development are offset by resulting > energy abundance and thus overall energy price drops. In fact, the > greatest enemy to renewables production and conservation has been energy > price fluctuation. Perhaps variable energy taxation aimed in part at > smoothing the cost of energy would be or would have been useful. Certainly > the global development of reliable cheap clean energy will ultimately > greatly enhance the world economy and world peace. It can not happen too > soon. The ulitmate crisis is not peak oil, but rather peak water. We will > need cheap energy to obtain the water and thus food the world needs. > ------------------------ The above is a good list of things that can be done, and Horace has offered in the past a good strategy for paying for the transition. With wind and solar, special value is given to locations, which become sources of wealth and power to those who control those locastions, as it is with oil, coal, and hydroelectricity. The energy collected must be distributed. With BLP and CF, there is no special value to location as a sourceof wealth and power. The ultimate source of energy is hydrogen, the generators are scalable, portable and can be at the point of use. Patents will run out before large scale deployment is complete. A question to contemplate is what kind of a world civilization will exist with BLP/CF and without these a century from now? Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 17 19:21:55 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3I2Lgqf015950; Sun, 17 Apr 2005 19:21:42 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3I2Ler2015939; Sun, 17 Apr 2005 19:21:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 19:21:40 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000c01c543bd$55a2a6d0$2d027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: water into wine Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 21:21:30 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0008_01C54393.6C19C990"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-99.5 required=4.0 tests=HTML_40_50,HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59324 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C54393.6C19C990 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0009_01C54393.6C1B5030" ------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C54393.6C1B5030 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankGrimer posted a link to refractive indices. Interesting stuff but = I am missing something. Do I notice a conflict with graph 4 and = Segelstein's values. The parallels on graph 4 seem to be at odds with = graph 6. Behavior is never parallel unless the graph 4 is derived at = best. Graph 6 can give one pause in it's insight. http://www.philiplaven.com/p20.html Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C54393.6C1B5030 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Grimer posted a link to refractive indices. Interesting stuff  = but I=20 am missing something. Do I notice a conflict with graph 4 and = Segelstein's=20 values. The parallels on graph 4 seem to be at odds with graph 6. = Behavior is=20 never parallel unless the graph 4 is derived at best. Graph 6 can give = one pause=20 in it's insight.

http://www.philiplaven.com/p= 20.html

Richard

------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C54393.6C1B5030-- ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C54393.6C19C990 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000701c543bd$54d5e0f0$2d027841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C54393.6C19C990-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 17 19:57:22 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3I2vFqf027847; Sun, 17 Apr 2005 19:57:15 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3I2vEcc027841; Sun, 17 Apr 2005 19:57:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 19:57:14 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42632229.8000704 pobox.com> Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 22:57:45 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.5) Gecko/20050105 Debian/1.7.5-1 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex Subject: Is Kyoto really this flimsy? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59325 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: (Let's ignore for the moment the fact that the USA isn't in Kyoto and that it's arguably pointless from the get-go as a result -- this question pertains only the countries which _are_ in it.) I recently ran across an article claiming that the course Canada is currently planning to take to satisfy the Kyoto accord is to, basically, do nothing, and then buy their way out by massive purchases of CO2 credits. This was an editorial in LeDevoir; I think they're reliable but haven't been reading them long enough to be completely sure. Original article at http://www.ledevoir.com/2005/04/16/79517.html Now, if Canada can do this, presumably other industrialized nations can do it too -- in which case the whole treaty seems like a pointless exercise. Or is the Canada plan predicated on the assumption that nobody else is going to try the same thing, since if everybody wants to be a net buyer the price of a credit could be expected to head for the moon? Anybody here been following this one? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 17 20:36:22 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3I3aFqf006199; Sun, 17 Apr 2005 20:36:15 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3I3aDuk006185; Sun, 17 Apr 2005 20:36:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 20:36:13 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: ...water into wine... Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 23:38:26 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.20050417170412.00689248 pop.freeserve.net> X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59326 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Frank + RC, Yes, Graph 6 is interesting. The absorption peak at 100nm can be predicted from the shape of the real component; although the scale is somewhat compressed due to the log nature of the graph you can see the peak matches the 50% point of the dip in the real component. This is common in inductive materials, look at specs for ferrite where real and imaginary permeability are plotted and you'll see what I mean. It happens I was characterizing a ferromagnetic sample this morning trying to find just that point. The IR peaks I presume to be some kind of molecular resonances? K. -----Original Message----- From: Grimer [mailto:f.grimer grimer2.freeserve.co.uk] Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2005 1:04 PM To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: Re: ...water into wine... I have been following up on the possibility that the proximity of c to the integer three times ten to an integral power might not be the coincidence it logically seems but a manifestation of a subtle connection between water and light. Crazy - possibly - but certainly fun - and a way of painlessly learning a lot more about the properties of water and light. 8-) One thing I remember from schooldays is that the refractive index for water is about 4/3. Here again we have a suggestive ratio, albeit only spot on for orange light at about 600 nm. There is some very useful stuff on refractive indices and the like at the following URL http://www.philiplaven.com/p20.html I found the most interesting graph was Figure 6 which shows the imaginary part of the refractive index, i.e. the measure of absorption. The really significant bit it the way it peaks at around 100 nm (shades of blacklight, eh!). It is not until the wavelength reaches the mm range that the imaginary part again comes as close to the real part. There is some intriguing, stuff on other pages of the site as well. For instance this rather macabre example of a glory: ================================================ http://www.philiplaven.com/p2c.html Fig. 4 may be the first image of a glory observed from space. It was recorded on 28 January 2003 by the MEIDEX (Mediterranean Israeli Dust Experiment) instrument on board the space shuttle Columbia - which tragically burnt up on re-entry into the Earth's atmosphere on 1 February 2003 resulting in the deaths of all 7 members of the crew. The MEIDEX Science Team at Tel Aviv University found this fascinating image whilst examining the results of MEIDEX and suggests that the term "Astronaut's glory" should be used "in honor of our friends from the Columbia crew". ================================================ Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 17 21:54:47 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3I4saqf026385; Sun, 17 Apr 2005 21:54:41 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3I4sZGp026374; Sun, 17 Apr 2005 21:54:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 21:54:35 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Is Kyoto really this flimsy? Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 14:54:22 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <42632229.8000704 pobox.com> In-Reply-To: <42632229.8000704 pobox.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j3I4sSqf026321 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59327 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Stephen A. Lawrence's message of Sun, 17 Apr 2005 22:57:45 -0400: Hi, [snip] >exercise. Or is the Canada plan predicated on the assumption that >nobody else is going to try the same thing, since if everybody wants to >be a net buyer the price of a credit could be expected to head for the moon? > >Anybody here been following this one? At some point, it will be cheaper to implement CO2 saving technology than buy credits. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 18 00:26:27 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3I7Q7qf001276; Mon, 18 Apr 2005 00:26:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3I7Q3ki001237; Mon, 18 Apr 2005 00:26:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 00:26:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Mountainside solar towers Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 17:25:47 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j3I7Pqqf001066 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59328 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Horace Heffner's message of Thu, 14 Apr 2005 09:04:33 -0800: Hi, [snip] >The rise column (or draft tube as you call it) should be cheaper to >implement as a single flat cross section than as multiple tubes. The sides >not against the mountain must be insulated to preserve the temperature of >the air in the rise column, because its bouyancy is what drives the device. Alternatively, one could make the outside of transparent material, and the mountainside black, so that the whole chimney collects extra solar energy over its whole height (vertical greenhouse). BTW there are some low mountains in central Australia, in the middle of the desert, that run more or less east-west, and have steep sides. Perhaps not as high as one might like, but it would make a good start. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 18 00:51:26 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3I7p7qf008548; Mon, 18 Apr 2005 00:51:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3I7p5Os008527; Mon, 18 Apr 2005 00:51:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 00:51:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <42632229.8000704 pobox.com> References: <42632229.8000704 pobox.com> Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 02:51:39 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: Is Kyoto really this flimsy? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59329 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >(Let's ignore for the moment the fact that the USA isn't in Kyoto >and that it's arguably pointless from the get-go as a result -- this >question pertains only the countries which _are_ in it.) If it weren't for our efforts to stop this nonsense, we would be part of it. >I recently ran across an article claiming that the course Canada is >currently planning to take to satisfy the Kyoto accord is to, >basically, do nothing, and then buy their way out by massive >purchases of CO2 credits. Sounds like blackmail to me/ >http://www.ledevoir.com/2005/04/16/79517.html > >Now, if Canada can do this, presumably other industrialized nations >can do it too -- in which case the whole treaty seems like a >pointless exercise. It does nothing about the third world and penalizes Americans. >Or is the Canada plan predicated on the assumption that nobody else >is going to try the same thing, since if everybody wants to be a net >buyer the price of a credit could be expected to head for the moon? > >Anybody here been following this one? I've been following the escapades of the UN since 1956 and the war of Katanglaese succession. They screwed that up. AFAIK they have screwed up everything else they have attempted too. Excuse me, some of the independent agencies have done some good. But the UN itself is 190 some stooges doing a world government. Imagine Sudan and Libia on the Human Rights Counsel. The majority rules, and the majority of governments are despotic. They can't even get rid of Coffie Anan who just got caught with his hands in the till up to his elbows! The organization is, IMHO, a complete waste of money. If I had my druthers, I'd order them out of the country and convert the building into office space. Worse, as the thread, no body wants it alludes, there seems to be a diabolical force in the world dedicated to making the world's condition worse. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 18 01:03:33 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3I83Dqf012400; Mon, 18 Apr 2005 01:03:13 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3I83BeV012384; Mon, 18 Apr 2005 01:03:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 01:03:11 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 03:03:49 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: electrical grounding Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="============_-1098311055==_ma============" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: <3Ivak.A.aBD.9m2YCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59330 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --============_-1098311055==_ma============ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" A friend sent me this URL. http://www.groundingforhealth.com/grounding_information_understanding_emfs.html I've always figured that since I work with power tools, and hang out in an office full of electronic equipment, there was no point in worrying about it. However sleeping on a grounded mat seems like it might be a good idea. Their price is about $400 more than I'm going to pay however. I'm looking for suggestions on the material to use that is conducting, and flexible. I have a space blanket. which is alumanized on one side. How can I connect a wire to it? will it affect the permanent magnetic pad below it? --============_-1098311055==_ma============ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" electrical grounding
A friend sent me this URL. http://www.groundingforhealth.com/grounding_information_understanding_emfs.html

I've always figured that since I work with power tools, and hang out in an office full of electronic equipment, there was no point in worrying about it. However sleeping on a grounded mat seems like it might be a good idea. Their price is about $400 more than I'm going to pay however. I'm looking for suggestions on the material to use that is conducting, and flexible. I have a space blanket. which is alumanized on one side. How can I connect a wire to it? will it affect the permanent magnetic pad below it?
--============_-1098311055==_ma============-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 18 06:47:32 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3IDlOqf014905; Mon, 18 Apr 2005 06:47:24 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3IDlMeH014896; Mon, 18 Apr 2005 06:47:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 06:47:22 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <9527469.1113832037078.JavaMail.root wamui02.slb.atl.earthlink.net> Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 09:47:16 -0400 (GMT-04:00) From: Jed Rothwell Reply-To: Jed Rothwell To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Is Kyoto really this flimsy? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Earthlink Zoo Mail 1.0 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59331 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Stephen A. Lawrence writes: > http://www.ledevoir.com/2005/04/16/79517.html > > Now, if Canada can do this, presumably other industrialized nations can > do it too -- in which case the whole treaty seems like a pointless > exercise. This would not work because the number of "pollution credits" available is strictly limited, and the numbers should be scheduled to decline year by year. Buying and selling pollution credits sounds like a nutty idea, but in fact when the system is properly administered, and number of credits is carefully calibrated, this method works remarkably well. It is the most cost effective and rapid way to reduce pollution. This is a good example of free market capitalism working the way it should work, to everyone's benefit. Usually, a country or corporation which buys credits is already pretty clean. I expect Canada falls in this category. Because Canada has already deployed advanced technology, further reductions in Canada would be relatively expensive, so they buy credits instead. Other countries which are far behind can make large improvements for comparatively small amounts of money, so it makes more sense for them to reduce pollution instead. In fact, it is so easy for them to make progress (because their equipment is obsolete and inefficient), they can reduce pollution even more than their quota demands, and they can sell the extra improvements to Canada. (In this case, by "pollution" I mean CO2.) - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 18 09:00:26 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3IG0Gqf026862; Mon, 18 Apr 2005 09:00:17 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3IG0EMR026841; Mon, 18 Apr 2005 09:00:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 09:00:14 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Is Kyoto really this flimsy? Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 12:02:21 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <42632229.8000704 pobox.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59332 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Stephen writes: >Or is the Canada plan predicated on the assumption that >nobody else is going to try the same thing, since if everybody wants to >be a net buyer the price of a credit could be expected to head for the moon? You sort of answer your own question. I can only add that the current situation is that one can dump as much pollution into the air as is possible without cost. With the cap and trade, there is now a cost. Market economics will (eventually) force a curbing of emissions. It would be faster to ban emmission like what was done with CFC's, but there is no political will to do this. Another effect it has is to encourage countries in places like South America to stop cutting down the rain forests; big sinks of CO2 suddenly become revenue streams. These folks seem a good source for more info, http://www.ieta.org As you say, without American ( and Chinese ) participation, the net effect will be marginal. It's a start, though. BTW, if you've been reading the news, the Chinese aren't only rioting over Japan. http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/13/international/asia/13cnd-riot.html In fact, it throws the whole "rioting over Japan" thing into a new light, doesn't it??? Kind of like how we do politics here in the US. Wave the magic wand, and watch the rabbit disappear. K. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 18 09:10:23 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3IGABqf030983; Mon, 18 Apr 2005 09:10:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3IGAAFa030960; Mon, 18 Apr 2005 09:10:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 09:10:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000e01c54431$1599bb90$0100007f xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: Mountainside solar towers Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 11:09:04 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000A_01C54407.08BAB200" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-99.5 required=4.0 tests=HTML_20_30,HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: <9LWtHB.A.rjH.hv9YCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59333 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C54407.08BAB200 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000B_01C54407.08BC38A0" ------=_NextPart_001_000B_01C54407.08BC38A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankRobin writes, >BTW there are some low mountains in central Australia, in the middle of the desert, that run more or less east-west, and have steep sides. Perhaps not as high as one might like, but it would make a good start.< The combination of solar and wind energy can be harnessed for the wind = turbine.Compensating for the height( change in elevation) an incline = actually improves the combination. Add vortex energy and Australia is a = natural. Considering that west Texas, like Australia, has an abundance = " dust devils" or tiny twisters that impulse daily, One could study the " trigger" that permits the formation of these dust = devils. The incredible amount of energy released is amazing. There have wind farms in west Texas in droves. The tax benefits and the = Federal money involved has caused a feeding frenzy across the US for = large array wind generators. The insanity of the projects make me turn = my head as I pass some of them. Here we have the wind farm at the top of = the plateau and the 2500 foot inclined radical change in elevation = beneath and adjacent to the wind towers. Engineering science blinded by = the dollar. =20 Oh well, they say Texas and Australia have a lot in common Richard ------=_NextPart_001_000B_01C54407.08BC38A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Robin writes,

>BTW there are some low mountains in central Australia, in = the
middle=20 of the desert, that run more or less east-west, and have
steep sides. = Perhaps=20 not as high as one might like, but it would
make a good = start.<

The combination of solar and wind energy can be harnessed for the = wind=20 turbine.Compensating for the height( change in elevation) an incline = actually=20 improves the combination. Add vortex energy and Australia is a natural.=20 Considering that west Texas, like Australia, has an abundance  = " dust=20 devils" or tiny twisters that impulse daily,

One could study the " trigger" that permits the formation of these = dust=20 devils. The incredible amount of energy released  is amazing.

There have wind farms in west Texas in droves. The tax benefits and = the=20 Federal money involved has caused a feeding frenzy across the US for = large array=20 wind generators. The insanity of the projects make me turn my head as I = pass=20 some of them. Here we have the wind farm at the top of the plateau and = the 2500=20 foot inclined radical change in elevation beneath and adjacent = to the wind=20 towers. Engineering science blinded by the dollar.  

Oh well, they say Texas  and Australia have a lot in common

Richard

------=_NextPart_001_000B_01C54407.08BC38A0-- ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C54407.08BAB200 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000901c54430$f18177c0$0100007f xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C54407.08BAB200-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 18 09:35:24 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3IGZBqf013145; Mon, 18 Apr 2005 09:35:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3IGZ9Fj013120; Mon, 18 Apr 2005 09:35:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 09:35:09 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <10472489.1113842106814.JavaMail.root wamui02.slb.atl.earthlink.net> Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 12:35:06 -0400 (GMT-04:00) From: Jed Rothwell Reply-To: Jed Rothwell To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: The Chinese are rioting over gas and oil Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Earthlink Zoo Mail 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j3IGZ7qf013098 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59334 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Keith Nagel writes: > BTW, if you've been reading the news, the Chinese aren't only rioting > over Japan. > > http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/13/international/asia/13cnd-riot.html > > In fact, it throws the whole "rioting over Japan" thing into a new light, > doesn't it??? The Japanese news has been dominated by these events. As often happens these days, the story behind the news story is fossil fuel energy. The Chinese are ostensibly upset by two things: revisionist textbooks, and the territorial fight over what the Japanese call the Senkaku Islands. The latter fight has been brewing for decades -- at least since the 1970s. The islands in question are tiny, rocky and not worth spit. The REAL issue is that there may be a lot of oil and gas in the sea floor below them, and whatever country claims them also claims the sea around them out to some distance. There is presently an uneasy agreement to split the territory, but the Chinese are reportedly sinking gas wells that reach into the Japanese territory. At the height of the riots last week, a Japanese official with the world's worst sense of timing announced that contracts are being let to drill exploratory wells on the Japanese side. It is pretty clear from the videos and comments made by the Chinese officials that they are looking the other way and not doing much to prevent riots and damage to the Japanese embassy, consulates and property. The police are literally looking the other way; they have been shown in the Japanese TV chatting with their backs turned while a few meters away people are hurling rocks and eggs at the buildings. Also the police show up with signs saying: "Demonstration This Way," and loudspeakers announce that buses are waiting to take the tired protesters home after the march. Evidently, this is the Chinese government's way of sending a signal to the Japanese. I doubt the Chinese government would allow people to throw rocks at Chinese government buildings! The Chinese government is evidently trying to fine-tune the demonstrations. They have thousands of police in Tienanmen square to prevent demonstrations from spreading there, and they have several busloads of police camped out at the Beijing Japanese embassy, evidently because they think enough is enough for now. The Japanese language includes many words borrowed from Chinese, so many of the protest signs can be read by the Japanese TV audience. Many protesters are carrying signs that say (when pronounced in Japanese): "aikoku muzai," meaning roughly "patriotism means not guilty" or "It isn't a crime if you love your country." It is becoming a catch phrase in Japan, too, which I find ominous. Regarding the history book revisionism, the Chinese certainly do have legitimate gripes, and it is no wonder they are demonstrating. If they would refrain from throwing rocks and attacking Japanese nationals, they might actually sway Japanese public opinion and accomplish something positive. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 18 09:40:17 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3IGe4qf015510; Mon, 18 Apr 2005 09:40:05 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3IGe3ZB015488; Mon, 18 Apr 2005 09:40:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 09:40:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: "Vortex" Subject: Waitin' for the (Oil)Man! Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 12:42:16 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59335 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Uh oh, I feel another song parody comin' on, with TAB even! Apologies and white light/white heat to fellow NY'er Lou Reed. Tune to E, and follow me, all barr chords, heavy on the distortion please... ----------------------------------------------- Waitin' for the (Oil)Man. D G D G I’m waiting for my (oil)man D G D G 26 billion dollars in my hand D F# Up to longitude 035 G Feel sick and dirty, A more dead than alive D G D G I’m waiting for my (oil)man Hey white boy, what you doin’ around Hey white boy, you chasin’ camels around Pardon me sir, it’s furthest from my mind I’m just lookin for a despotic friend of mine I’m waiting for my (oil)man. Here he comes, he’s all dressed in white sandals and, a towel for a hat, He’s never early, he’s always late First thing you learn is that you always gotta wait I’m waiting for my (oil)man Up to the derrick, pass Dick Cheney on the stairs, Everybody’s pinned you, but nobody cares He’s got the pump, fills your tank with eight, Then you gotta drive 'cos you got no time to waste I’m waiting for my (oil)man Hey Green Boy, don’t you holler, don’t you ball and shout I’m feeling good, drivin' my SUV about. I’m feeling good, I'm feeling so fine Until tomorrow, but that’s just some other time I’m waiting for my (oil)man ---------------------------------------------- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 18 09:42:24 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3IGgEqf016881; Mon, 18 Apr 2005 09:42:14 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3IGgBVr016848; Mon, 18 Apr 2005 09:42:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 09:42:11 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <8260166.1113842529480.JavaMail.root wamui02.slb.atl.earthlink.net> Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 12:42:08 -0400 (GMT-04:00) From: Jed Rothwell Reply-To: Jed Rothwell To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Mountainside solar towers Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Earthlink Zoo Mail 1.0 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59336 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: RC Macaulay writes: > There have wind farms in west Texas in droves. The tax benefits and the Federal money involved has > caused a feeding frenzy across the US for large array wind generators. The tax benefits are small (2 cents per KWH I think), they last only a few years, and they nowhere near enough to make wind energy profitable. They are much less generous than the tax breaks given to oil, gas or nuclear power, although they do level the playing field somewhat. There is no direct Federal funding to build wind farms as far as I know. There is a small amount for research. > The insanity of the projects make me turn my head as I pass some of them. Here we have the wind farm at > the top of the plateau and the 2500 foot inclined radical change in elevation beneath and adjacent to the > wind towers. Engineering science blinded by the dollar. What is insane about that? These locations have some of the strongest and steadiest winds on earth. There is no better way to capture the wind with present-day, off the shelf technology. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 18 13:20:30 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3IKK5qf011813; Mon, 18 Apr 2005 13:20:10 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3IKK4p8011800; Mon, 18 Apr 2005 13:20:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 13:20:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 12:21:58 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Mountainside solar towers Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59337 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:09 AM 4/18/5, RC Macaulay wrote: >There have wind farms in west Texas in droves. The tax benefits and the >Federal money involved has caused a feeding frenzy across the US for large >array wind generators. The insanity of the projects make me turn my head >as I pass some of them. Here we have the wind farm at the top of the >plateau and the 2500 foot inclined radical change in elevation beneath and >adjacent to the wind towers. Engineering science blinded by the dollar. Not sure what you mean by the above. High altitude locations are typically good for wind farms. In any case, in order to make a valid economic assessment, wind rose data is typically obtained to cover a fulll year before siting a wind farm. Are you saying they have ignored the potential for solar towers in Texas? The idea of building solar towers on mountiansides (I assume a 2500 ft radical rise qualifies as a mountain) is not commonplace. I certainly never heard of it before. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 18 13:20:35 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3IKK9qf011887; Mon, 18 Apr 2005 13:20:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3IKK7Tw011860; Mon, 18 Apr 2005 13:20:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 13:20:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 12:21:56 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Mountainside solar towers Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59338 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 5:25 PM 4/18/5, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >...one could make the outside of transparent material, >and the mountainside black, so that the whole chimney collects >extra solar energy over its whole height (vertical greenhouse). Yes. The main problem then is insulating the chimney at night. That problem might be addressed using insluated louvers. I do wonder how effective aerogel might be as greehouse enclosure insulation. It is translucent, so it should be a pretty good material for the application, and its light weight would be ideal for self-standing towers too. I know it is good for insulating skylights. It's then mainly a matter of making the stuff cheaply enough. For self standing tower use an air gap could separate the aerogel from black metal panels that would then heat exchange with the rising column of air. > >BTW there are some low mountains in central Australia, in the >middle of the desert, that run more or less east-west, and have >steep sides. Perhaps not as high as one might like, but it would >make a good start. Any of the mountains not in parks or otherwise protected? Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 18 15:35:34 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3IMZR1K018380; Mon, 18 Apr 2005 15:35:27 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3IMZOYa018354; Mon, 18 Apr 2005 15:35:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 15:35:24 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001201c54466$e57b6770$0100007f xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: Mountainside solar towers Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 17:34:39 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000E_01C5443C.E6045FA0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-99.5 required=4.0 tests=HTML_20_30,HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59339 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C5443C.E6045FA0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000F_01C5443C.E605E640" ------=_NextPart_001_000F_01C5443C.E605E640 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankWindfarms The cost of construction of a windfarmis partially offset by tax = incentives. The cost of maintenance is high. Notice how many towers are = out of service at any time. The stress of the windshear as the prop = passes the pylon is a cause of blade fatigue. Jed mentioned there is no better way to capture the wind with = present-day, off the shelf technology. True and the incentives exist to = keep building them although there is a better, more efficent, less = expensive and lower maintenance way using available technology. That = should count for something. The technology is available, albeit it in bits and pieces... to use = inclined updraft tubes for electric power generation. The base of the = tube could beconfigured similar to the shape of a chambered nautilus = and have an offset turbine shaft that fully captures the cross section = of the opening while achieving null on the backside of the rotation. to = lower drag. Seems more feasible than building a 3500 ft tall solar wind = tower at 500 mil plus.=20 Richard ------=_NextPart_001_000F_01C5443C.E605E640 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Windfarms
 
The cost of construction of a windfarmis partially offset by tax=20 incentives. The cost of maintenance is high. Notice how many towers are = out of=20 service at any time. The stress of the windshear as the prop passes the = pylon=20 is a cause of blade fatigue.
Jed mentioned there is no better way to capture the wind with = present-day,=20 off the shelf technology. True and the incentives exist to keep building = them=20 although there is a better, more efficent, less expensive and lower = maintenance=20 way using available technology. That should count for = something.
 
The technology is available, albeit it in bits and pieces... to use = inclined updraft tubes for electric power generation. The base of the=20 tube could beconfigured  similar to the shape of a chambered = nautilus=20 and have an offset turbine shaft that fully captures the cross section = of the=20 opening while achieving null on the backside of the rotation. to lower = drag.=20 Seems more feasible than building a 3500 ft tall solar wind tower at 500 = mil=20 plus.

Richard

------=_NextPart_001_000F_01C5443C.E605E640-- ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C5443C.E6045FA0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000d01c54466$cecfb940$0100007f xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C5443C.E6045FA0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 18 17:43:36 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3J0hQ1K001207; Mon, 18 Apr 2005 17:43:26 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3J0hOVa001196; Mon, 18 Apr 2005 17:43:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 17:43:24 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 16:45:22 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Mountainside solar towers Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59340 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Wow! I just happend to notice the diameter of the proposed solar tower is 167 meters! See: . It says: "The fact the tower would be only six times higher than its diameter is the key to its strength and stability, says davey." Not too much worry about insulation with that kind of diameter. That's 22,000 m^2 of chimney cross section. Running up a mountainside, assuming the flue had a 22 meter cross section height (72 ft) it would take up 1000 m (3280ft) of mountainside. It sure would provide a lot of advertising space! The 20 km^2 (2x10^7 m^2) greenhouse proposed at the base can at 100 percent efficiency provide only 20 MW of solar power. The mountainside flue noted above, assuming it were also 1 km high, could only capture 1 MW of power, so the solar capturing effect is of only nominal consideration to the design, assuming the Australian project actualy can produce the proposed 200 MW output. I now don't see why a solar base is necessary at all, unless it is of use to prime the flue. The vast majority of the hoped for 200 MW power then has to be from the bouyancy due to the difference in ambient temperature (and thus column bouyancy) between the base and the exit of the flue. This sounds like it needs some checking. In a "standard atmosphere" the density at sea level is 1.225 kg/m^2 at 288 K, and at 1000 m it is 1.112 kg/m^2 at 281K. We see the expected top to bottom average temperature difference is only 7 K. Also, the mass of air in a 1 km high 1 m^2 column outside the flue is roughly 1000*(1.225 kg +1.112 kg))/2 = 1,169 kg. The mass of the air inside the flue, assuming no heat loss through the sides of the tower, can be computed using the average temperature outside the flue, which is (288 K + 281 K)/2 = 284.5 K. A 1 m^2 column of air inside the flue is warmer, thus weighs (284.5 K)/(288 K) (1,169 kg) = 1,155 kg. The difference in weight of the two columns is 14 kg, so we have a bouyant force of 14 kg/m^2 in static conditions. The bouyant force of air across the (2x10^7 m^2) cross section area flue is thus on average about 2.8x10^8 kgf. We can only obtain this force if the flow is zero. As the flow rate increases the pressure differential drops. Assuming the tower produces air flow at 35 m/s as stated in the above article, the ideal power, assuming all the 2.8x10^8 kgf is available, is 9.61x10^4 MW. Assuming 30 percent of that can be harnessed that is 28,800 MW, about 144 times the 200 MW forecast for the tower. Unless I made a big mistake (not uncommon), the 200 MW number is even looking conservative. It would be very interesting to see the engineering work done earlier by Schlaich and now by Davey. The use of base solar collectors is now looking almost entirely irrelevant. It also is of interest that flow resistance should be fairly small in a pipe that has a diameter 1/6 the length. It sounds like Davey is playing all this very conservatively. One problem with the solar tower concept is that inversions might occur, or variations in the expected conditions. Even more varistions might be expected if the towers were built against mountainsides, thought they would likely be much cheaper. If built in a hot clear environment the towers would benfit marginally from solar collection, but the added benefit for the cost, compared to just building more towers, might be unjustified. All this brings up another point of interest, especially as related to solar towers in far northern climates. Since air density is higher, and actual solar collection is nearly moot, solar towers might do very well in even arctic conditions, because the air density is much higher. Often the temperature gradients may be higher, though inversions are also likely more common. The interesting thing, though, is the high wind that flows across the tops of mountain ranges. Appropriate ducting at the top of the flue could have dramatic effects on the air flow through the duct when the wind is crossing the ridge - and that air flow would be highly controllable using damping. There would not be the shut down problems associated with turbines, and no one would have to visit mountain tops or climb towers to do maintenance on turbines or generators. The "buisness end" would be the ground end. If necessary, in places like Alaska, the flues could be camoflauged to look like mountainside. In the winter snow would hide it well is the outside were slightly contoured. If I understand things right, then this is all incredibly cool stuff. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 18 17:58:14 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3J0w31K006039; Mon, 18 Apr 2005 17:58:03 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3J0w2g4006029; Mon, 18 Apr 2005 17:58:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 17:58:02 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 17:00:01 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Mountainside solar towers Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59341 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I just wrote: "The 20 km^2 (2x10^7 m^2) greenhouse proposed at the base can at 100 percent efficiency provide only 20 MW of solar power." Wow, was I wrong, by a factor of 1000. The solar insolation factor is 1 kW/m^2, not 1 W/m^2. A 100 percent effecient solar collector with 2x10^7 m^2 operating in ideal overhead sun conditions would collect 20,000 MW. Still, it is interesting that, on average, the solar collector seems to not be needed if the tower is tall enough. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 18 18:34:48 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3J1Yc3Q008582; Mon, 18 Apr 2005 18:34:39 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3J1YVbd008541; Mon, 18 Apr 2005 18:34:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 18:34:31 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <8235703.1113874469268.JavaMail.root wamui04.slb.atl.earthlink.net> Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 21:34:28 -0400 (GMT-04:00) From: Jed Rothwell Reply-To: Jed Rothwell To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Mountainside solar towers Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Earthlink Zoo Mail 1.0 Resent-Message-ID: <1TT5jD.A.TFC.mAGZCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59342 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: RC Macaulay writes: > The cost of [wind tower] maintenance is high. Not according to EPRI. They say that wind now has the lowest maintenance cost of any conventional power source, per KWH. The Danish Wind Industry Association says: "For newer machines the estimates range around 1.5 to 2 per cent per year of the original turbine investment." A $25,000 car that lasts 20 years and costs $500 a year to maintain would be quite a good deal. > Notice how many towers are out of service at any time. Very few! They are down for maintenance for one or two days a year, and maintenance is scheduled for days when the weather prediction is for no wind. If you see ones that are not moving, it is because the wind is not blowing. > The stress of the windshear as the prop passes the pylon is a cause of blade fatigue. > Jed mentioned there is no better way to capture the wind with present-day, off the shelf technology. True and the > incentives exist to keep building them although there is a better, more efficent, less expensive and lower > maintenance way using available technology. They have stressed low maintenance and reliability for the last 30 years. That is one of the reasons the cost has fallen from $1/KWH to $0.04/KWH. Wind turbines take up little space on the ground, and they take no fuel. The only costs involved in making them is the initial materials and maintenance. The initial cost has not fallen. It is a little difficult for me to believe that competitive European companies are building the equivalent of 3 large U.S. nuclear plants a year with this technology, and spending billions of dollars, yet there are already better, proven designs available. I know that unproven and speculative technology such as CF is often ignored. Improvements such as hybrid cars were ignored for a long time, but after all, they were built in the end. The auto industry is old, mature, and stodgy, whereas wind turbine manufacturers are on the cutting edge, like aviation. They are among the fastest growing companies in Europe. In Denmark, they employ more people than the steel and concrete industries do. In the U.S. I can well imagine that a promising energy technology might be ignored, but the Europeans pay $5 per gallon for gas and they import nearly all of their fossil fuel. They are not idiots. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 18 20:02:42 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3J32RHw015154; Mon, 18 Apr 2005 20:02:28 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3J32Qtc015120; Mon, 18 Apr 2005 20:02:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 20:02:26 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <426474DD.2000802 pobox.com> Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 23:02:53 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.5) Gecko/20050105 Debian/1.7.5-1 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Mountainside solar towers References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59343 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: >The vast majority of the hoped for 200 MW power then has to be from the >bouyancy due to the difference in ambient temperature (and thus column >bouyancy) between the base and the exit of the flue. This sounds like it >needs some checking. [ ... ] The use of base >solar collectors is now looking almost entirely irrelevant. > > I didn't check your numbers but this conclusion _must_ be wrong. Sanity check: Under stable atmospheric conditions the temperature drop with increase in altitude is greater than or equal to do the drop which results from adiabatic expansion of a parcel of air as the air rises. In other words, air that starts at the base of the tube at ambient temperature will expand as it rises in the tube (as the pressure drops) and cool as a result of the expansion. The rate at which it cools will be at least as great as the temperature drop outside the tube. If that isn't the case, then you've got cumulus clouds forming because there are spontaneous updrafts, and if the difference is at all substantial you've got thunderstorms. (I'm not talking about inversions -- an inversion is a "super-stable" state. I'm talking about ordinary conditions in which there isn't massive vertical wind shear.) In any event, you've got vertical currents working overtime to even things out and make sure the air is stable (nature's arbitrageurs). Under typical conditions, as I understand it, the atmosphere is stable (or nearly stable) _absent_ _condensation_. Once the dew point is crossed the energy gained from the condensation keeps the air warm as it rises and that's the engine that drives the thunderstorm. In the absence of condensation, starting with ambient-temperature air, you've got nothing to drive a heat engine from. Again, you've got to push the temp up above ambient at the base; otherwise you'd have strong spontaneous updrafts taking place constantly at that spot (and I don't mean updrafts due to hot dirt heating the air just above it -- that _is_ the solar collector at the base they're talking about using, just in a less intense form). If the calculations show a different conclusion it's worth double and triple checking them because anything else doesn't seem to make sense. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 18 20:53:31 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3J3rLJY029560; Mon, 18 Apr 2005 20:53:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3J3rKrI029540; Mon, 18 Apr 2005 20:53:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 20:53:20 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001d01c54493$4f452520$3b027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: water into wine Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 22:53:11 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0018_01C54469.6597A8E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-99.3 required=4.0 tests=HTML_MESSAGE, HTML_TAG_BALANCE_BODY,HTML_TAG_BALANCE_HTML,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59344 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C54469.6597A8E0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0019_01C54469.65992F80"; type="multipart/alternative" ------=_NextPart_001_0019_01C54469.65992F80 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_002_001A_01C54469.65992F80" ------=_NextPart_002_001A_01C54469.65992F80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankHmmm.. the link Pliliplaven link that Grimer posted showing the = graphs has me intrigued. http://www.philiplaven.com/p20.html =20 In my mind's eye, I keep seeing a spiral, perhaps a helix pattern in = lieu of a seeming random of the imaginary shown in graph 6. Look carefully at graph 5 again, do I see a part of a spiral? Or could = this be a helix with three events ,one of which being the elusive Frank = senses. Water and light brings to mind the red throated hummingbirds so = busy outside this time of year. They can change the throat colors ( by = adjusting the feathers?) supposedly for mating and macho purposes.. but = what if we are getting a glimpse of a use of color we are not fully = aware of? Watching a hummingbird accelerate from scratch can puzzle one = trying to understand this ability. Richard ------=_NextPart_002_001A_01C54469.65992F80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Hmmm.. the link Pliliplaven link that Grimer posted showing the = graphs has=20 me intrigued.

http://www.philiplaven.com/p= 20.html
 

In my mind's eye, I keep seeing a spiral, perhaps a helix pattern in = lieu of=20 a seeming random of the imaginary shown in graph 6.

Look carefully at graph 5 again, do I see a part of a spiral?  = Or could=20 this  be a helix with three events ,one of which being the elusive = Frank=20 senses. Water and light brings to mind the red throated hummingbirds so = busy=20 outside this time of year. They can change the throat colors ( by = adjusting the=20 feathers?) supposedly for mating and macho purposes.. but what if we are = getting=20 a glimpse of a use of color we are not fully aware of? Watching a=20 hummingbird accelerate from scratch can puzzle one trying to understand = this=20 ability.

Richard

------=_NextPart_002_001A_01C54469.65992F80-- ------=_NextPart_001_0019_01C54469.65992F80 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <001701c54493$4e630280$3b027841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_001_0019_01C54469.65992F80-- ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C54469.6597A8E0 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="p20.html.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="p20.html.url" [InternetShortcut] URL=http://www.philiplaven.com/p20.html Modified=C059E08A9244C5011F ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C54469.6597A8E0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 18 21:17:07 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3J4GoJY007680; Mon, 18 Apr 2005 21:16:50 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3J4GmYb007670; Mon, 18 Apr 2005 21:16:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 21:16:48 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "John Steck" To: Subject: RE: Is Kyoto really this flimsy? Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 23:17:35 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 In-Reply-To: <42632229.8000704 pobox.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59345 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Not just Canada... http://www.science.org.au/nova/054/054key.htm -----Original Message----- From: Stephen A. Lawrence [mailto:salaw pobox.com] Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2005 9:58 PM To: Vortex Subject: Is Kyoto really this flimsy? (Let's ignore for the moment the fact that the USA isn't in Kyoto and that it's arguably pointless from the get-go as a result -- this question pertains only the countries which _are_ in it.) I recently ran across an article claiming that the course Canada is currently planning to take to satisfy the Kyoto accord is to, basically, do nothing, and then buy their way out by massive purchases of CO2 credits. This was an editorial in LeDevoir; I think they're reliable but haven't been reading them long enough to be completely sure. Original article at http://www.ledevoir.com/2005/04/16/79517.html Now, if Canada can do this, presumably other industrialized nations can do it too -- in which case the whole treaty seems like a pointless exercise. Or is the Canada plan predicated on the assumption that nobody else is going to try the same thing, since if everybody wants to be a net buyer the price of a credit could be expected to head for the moon? Anybody here been following this one? -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.15 - Release Date: 05/04/16 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 18 21:17:08 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3J4GvJY007738; Mon, 18 Apr 2005 21:16:57 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3J4Gt9B007715; Mon, 18 Apr 2005 21:16:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 21:16:55 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "John Steck" To: Subject: RE: Mountainside solar towers Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 23:19:35 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0068_01C5446D.15E99200" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 In-Reply-To: <001201c54466$e57b6770$0100007f xptower> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59346 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0068_01C5446D.15E99200 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0069_01C5446D.15E99200" ------=_NextPart_001_0069_01C5446D.15E99200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit BlankInstead of just building a tower, why not design a giant tube down the center of a high rise structure? Instead of up, mist water at the top and use the weight of the cooled air to drive a downdraft turbine. The water can be condensed and reclaimed at the bottom and then percolated with thermal solar energy back to the top. Rain water could be collected on the roof and utilized to help offset evaporative losses over time. A pleasant by-product would be an air-conditioning of the ground level air in the immediate vicinity of the building. -j -----Original Message----- From: RC Macaulay [mailto:walhalla cvtv.net] Sent: Monday, April 18, 2005 5:35 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Mountainside solar towers Windfarms The cost of construction of a windfarmis partially offset by tax incentives. The cost of maintenance is high. Notice how many towers are out of service at any time. The stress of the windshear as the prop passes the pylon is a cause of blade fatigue. Jed mentioned there is no better way to capture the wind with present-day, off the shelf technology. True and the incentives exist to keep building them although there is a better, more efficent, less expensive and lower maintenance way using available technology. That should count for something. The technology is available, albeit it in bits and pieces... to use inclined updraft tubes for electric power generation. The base of the tube could beconfigured similar to the shape of a chambered nautilus and have an offset turbine shaft that fully captures the cross section of the opening while achieving null on the backside of the rotation. to lower drag. Seems more feasible than building a 3500 ft tall solar wind tower at 500 mil plus. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0069_01C5446D.15E99200 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Instead of = just building=20 a tower, why not design a giant tube down the center of a high rise = structure?  Instead of up, mist water at the top and use the weight = of the=20 cooled air to drive a downdraft turbine.  The water can = be=20 condensed and reclaimed at the bottom and then percolated with = thermal=20 solar energy back to the top.  Rain water could be collected on the = roof=20 and utilized to help offset evaporative losses over time.  A = pleasant=20 by-product would be an air-conditioning of the ground level air in the = immediate=20 vicinity of the building.
 
-j
 
  
-----Original Message-----
From: RC Macaulay=20 [mailto:walhalla cvtv.net]
Sent: Monday, April 18, 2005 5:35=20 PM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Mountainside = solar=20 towers

Windfarms
 
The cost of construction of a windfarmis partially offset by tax=20 incentives. The cost of maintenance is high. Notice how many towers are = out of=20 service at any time. The stress of the windshear as the prop passes the = pylon=20 is a cause of blade fatigue.
Jed mentioned there is no better way to capture the wind with = present-day,=20 off the shelf technology. True and the incentives exist to keep building = them=20 although there is a better, more efficent, less expensive and lower = maintenance=20 way using available technology. That should count for = something.
 
The technology is available, albeit it in bits and pieces... to use = inclined updraft tubes for electric power generation. The base of the=20 tube could beconfigured  similar to the shape of a chambered = nautilus=20 and have an offset turbine shaft that fully captures the cross section = of the=20 opening while achieving null on the backside of the rotation. to lower = drag.=20 Seems more feasible than building a 3500 ft tall solar wind tower at 500 = mil=20 plus.

Richard

------=_NextPart_001_0069_01C5446D.15E99200-- ------=_NextPart_000_0068_01C5446D.15E99200 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <375535103 19042005-0da7> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0068_01C5446D.15E99200-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 19 00:56:15 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3J7u9J3015348; Tue, 19 Apr 2005 00:56:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3J7u8Ef015341; Tue, 19 Apr 2005 00:56:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 00:56:08 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 23:57:59 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Mountainside solar towers Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59347 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:02 PM 4/18/5, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: >Horace Heffner wrote: > >>The vast majority of the hoped for 200 MW power then has to be from the >>bouyancy due to the difference in ambient temperature (and thus column >>bouyancy) between the base and the exit of the flue. This sounds like it >>needs some checking. [ ... ] The use of base >>solar collectors is now looking almost entirely irrelevant. >> >> >I didn't check your numbers but this conclusion _must_ be wrong. > >Sanity check: > >Under stable atmospheric conditions the temperature drop with increase >in altitude is greater than or equal to do the drop which results from >adiabatic expansion of a parcel of air as the air rises. Yes, you're right. I forgot to compensate for heat lost to expansion. I assumed a constant temperature up the flue after priming. The surface temperture would have to be elevated, due to warm soil or a greenhouse, to get any bouyancy after priming. It is still curious that ideal overhead sun conditions for 20 km^2 would collect 20,000 MW, yet the solar tower with 20 km^2 only generates 200 MW. Assuming a loss of 75 percent due to sun angle and night, there is still an average of 5,000 MW, so the solar tower efficiency in capturing this is only 4 percent. It seems I must have some other mistake as well. I would think the tower would be capable of a higher efficiency. Assuming a higher efficiency can be or is obtained, it would be very handy to piggyback a nuclear or coal power plant into the deal, and use the tower to generate electricity using the waste heat. Also curious is the fact that heat pumps can operate at a COP of 5. If a tower were 30 percent efficient, then it could mechanically drive its own heat pumps. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 19 02:27:10 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3J9R3Rg008651; Tue, 19 Apr 2005 02:27:04 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3J9R1aj008643; Tue, 19 Apr 2005 02:27:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 02:27:01 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 01:28:58 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Mountainside solar towers Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59348 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 8:13 AM 4/14/5, RC Macaulay wrote: >Adding moisture ( steam) into the inlet would increase the flow via >differential temperatures Yes, warm wet air should indeed improve performance if the water condensed out before leaving the tower, for the reasons noted below by Stephen A. Lawrence. At 11:02 PM 4/18/5, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > Under typical conditions, as I >understand it, the atmosphere is stable (or nearly stable) _absent_ >_condensation_. Once the dew point is crossed the energy gained from >the condensation keeps the air warm as it rises and that's the engine >that drives the thunderstorm. Yes, good point. The latent heat of condensation provides 600 cal/g of water, so there is a lot of energy there. It should be worthwhile to do the solar heat collection while passing air over a water surface. If the condensed water could be captured at, say, 700 meters altitude, it would provide some hydropower. If salt water is used in the greenhouse for the solar collection, then the tower can double as a water source. The tower would just be nature's water cycle in a bottle. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 19 06:47:46 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3JDlLRg019088; Tue, 19 Apr 2005 06:47:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3JDlHZk019046; Tue, 19 Apr 2005 06:47:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 06:47:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001201c544e6$449a0ac0$7e027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: Mountainside solar towers Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 08:47:02 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000E_01C544BC.5B4535D0"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-99.2 required=4.0 tests=HTML_30_40,HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59349 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C544BC.5B4535D0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000F_01C544BC.5B46BC70" ------=_NextPart_001_000F_01C544BC.5B46BC70 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankThis thread may being growing legs of its own. Consider the updraft = tube need not be lengthy nor have a diameter greater than 40-50 meters. based on 6:1 ratio. Schauberger once studied a variation = of this. A vortex can be induced at the base which would supercharge the draft. = Hmmm.. I need to run a test on a tiny scale mockup to study the spin. A = reverse vortex may give better performance on a downdraft configuration. Proper selection of the shape of the top of the riser tube can be = important in that on an updraft tube ,the shape of the top acts as a = ejector. Steam injection may make for instability.. or create the mother = of all tornados. Here Jed.. stand over here while we start this jalopy up... < grin> Richard ------=_NextPart_001_000F_01C544BC.5B46BC70 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
This thread may being growing legs of its own. Consider the updraft = tube=20 need not be lengthy nor have a diameter greater than
40-50 meters. based on 6:1 ratio. Schauberger once studied a = variation of=20 this.
 
A vortex can be induced at the base which would supercharge the = draft.=20 Hmmm.. I need to run a test on a tiny scale mockup to study  the = spin. A=20 reverse vortex may give better performance on a downdraft = configuration.
 
Proper selection of the shape of the top of the riser tube can be = important=20 in that on an updraft tube ,the shape of the top acts as a ejector. = Steam=20 injection may make for instability.. or create the mother of all = tornados.
 
Here Jed.. stand over here while we start this jalopy up... <=20 grin>
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_000F_01C544BC.5B46BC70-- ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C544BC.5B4535D0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000d01c544e6$4402d3d0$7e027841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C544BC.5B4535D0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 19 12:57:40 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3JJvYRg028719; Tue, 19 Apr 2005 12:57:34 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3JJvSeh028689; Tue, 19 Apr 2005 12:57:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 12:57:28 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: [OT] The Glory of the Olive Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 15:57:22 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050419195722.RTZC2468.imf23aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59350 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This guy seems to have nailed it: http://www.catholicplanet.com/articles/article41.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 19 13:12:22 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3JKCBRg001638; Tue, 19 Apr 2005 13:12:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3JKC9WE001621; Tue, 19 Apr 2005 13:12:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 13:12:09 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=nOrOaIkv/nAvKE3swtDQc4Nf02uZ36auWyPQ7k28JL+q4EjsMPsnfLolxc/zLP9ewoV3/hJK5/ZpOSkDafrD5vZb6qpQJFepSOJQ2FklTBJKL0D/9J1Pi4LqAlocc8ZGtr+gezA3CUe9sxaKfZd8gsGZDlNoq/Us61eRVRVJ8f0= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 13:12:06 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [OT] The Glory of the Olive In-Reply-To: <20050419195722.RTZC2468.imf23aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <20050419195722.RTZC2468.imf23aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j3JKC6Rg001598 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59351 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: wow, i like how the guy thought hed be black, and called it HIS prediction (its a nostradamus prediction that this pope would be reffered to as the black pope) and, please. rat zinger is a well known believer in the prophecies of malachi. he did it on purpose. i think it likely theres a better, more hidden meaning behind it, if any. (and i was so hoping for the nigerian to get it. so many ultra conservative groups that woulda shiat a brick at a black pope) On 4/19/05, Terry Blanton wrote: > This guy seems to have nailed it: > > http://www.catholicplanet.com/articles/article41.htm > > -- "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 19 14:16:35 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3JLGQRg030135; Tue, 19 Apr 2005 14:16:26 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3JLGOVO030112; Tue, 19 Apr 2005 14:16:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 14:16:24 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "John Steck" To: "Vortex-L" Subject: RE: Another Challenge/ was RE: Gas Tax Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 16:18:58 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 In-Reply-To: Resent-Message-ID: <8TIgF.A.YWH.nUXZCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59352 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hey Keith, set up a paypal account for donations. This might be a rag-tag group, but I bet $20 here and there from the active and lurkers alike would give you some operating capital with no strings attached. Personally I like to understand what I am funding before I elect to give up my lunch budget for it. Post a business plan. Post quarterly updates and progress reports. If it seems worthwhile and lets me fanaticize about one day being able to give both the bastards at ComEd and Nicor the bird I WANT IT. Lord knows I am not able to do it in MY basement... -j -----Original Message----- From: Keith Nagel [mailto:knagel gis.net] Sent: Friday, April 15, 2005 3:05 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Another Challenge/ was RE: Gas Tax Hi Horace, Well, lets see. I've spent a better part of my adult life trying to "do" something about this. Early on, my mentor and I founded a 501(c)(3) to fund our work in the new energy technologies. The response from donors was "this is commercial, go to the VC's". The response from the VC's were, "what can you do by next quarter?" Needless to say, but for an angel or two, it was hardly worth the airplane tickets. So I go to Wall St, and do the corporate thing for a few years to build a war chest. The 90's were a good time for that you know, after the "disastrous" leadership of Clinton, an 8 year economic boom made some actual money float around, and you saw that reflected in the people here and the discussion. So I could fund my own work, and things progressed. Sadly, the last 5 years of "fiscally sound" policy of our current leaders has produced an unending war for oil, an economy still in the toilet, with no signs of real recovery ( and did any of you really believe that trickle down theory crap? Even Reagan's advisors backed away from that one. ) Can't make much progress when the fishing hole is drying up, you know. Let's add to this, that real success is going to mean _giving_ the results away to the very people who created this debacle, and you can see the problem. Look, about 4 feet from where I sit writing software, a mountain of lab equipment and technology sits largely idle. Sure, it's a passion of mine, nothing is going to stop me from working, but the occasional stolen hours do not add up to much by each years end. The truly pathetic thing is how little money it takes to keep the work going, for the cost some of my wealthy friends spend on golf course memberships I could be doing this full time and making real progress. But the ugly truth is, NO ONE WANTS THIS. Let that one sink in, Horace. Everyone pays lips service, but when it comes right down to it, NO ONE WANTS THIS. You can't have a society based on selfishness and greed and expect much else. Posting grandiose plans for publicly funded energy research is just so much crap, frankly. I know you mean well, but do you think that what you are saying hasn't been said by 100's before you? Common sense and a recitation of the facts is not going to get the job done. Forget the politicians, they're too busy jamming feeding tubes down vegetables throats fighting to impress Thomas Malloy for his vote. Don't look to these folks for the answer, or even benign neglect. They're also part of the problem. I don't expect any handouts. I do what I do because it's my passion, I love to do research. And if someone believes that the future can be better and that parting with some pocket change can make it happen, I'll crank up another 501(c)(3) and things will in fact happen again. For now, it's the snails pace and ~100 troops a month dead in the desert. Sorry for ranting, but perhaps it's time for some of these truths to be uttered in public. It's not like I have anything to lose, 'cos it's not like anyone's got the balls to put some money on the table for this stuff. Some folks say that individuals can't make a difference. Bullshit. Individuals are the _only_ ones that ever make a difference. K. -----Original Message----- From: Horace Heffner [mailto:hheffner mtaonline.net] Sent: Friday, April 15, 2005 2:36 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Gas Tax When are people going to stop complaining and arguing and actually DO SOMETHING about energy. The following was a reasonable starting point when posted here over two years ago, and it is still a good way to use the modest gas tax proposed, or even a much larger gas tax, which is now much more appropriate as precious years have been frittered away and the situation is much worse: Regards, Horace Heffner -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.12 - Release Date: 05/04/15 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 19 15:19:35 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3JMJSRg029492; Tue, 19 Apr 2005 15:19:28 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3JMJRIU029484; Tue, 19 Apr 2005 15:19:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 15:19:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: "Vortex" Subject: RE: Another Challenge/ was RE: Gas Tax Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 18:21:32 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59353 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi John, Yes, the thought crossed my mind. I toy with the idea now and then, although I find the internet to be very specific when it comes to raising money. For example, this guy http://www.savetoby.com/ Presumably he's getting the money for his gear, not from frantic 15 year old girls. Snopes claims this is a hoax, but why? A local girl raised about 35K this way for her credit card debts a few years ago( sushi and shoes can run you a big tab in Manhattan ). My boobs are way too small to make that work. OK, OK, I'm being too cynical. It's not a bad idea really, but there needs to be a hook of some kind. It's something Jean Louis Naudin ought to try, but I suspect given the size of his list ( largest one for this niche ) that the donations wouldn't exceed 2K. He has an angel, which is the general way of these things. Bill takes donations, and he has a more general audience than this list ( science education ) but I suspect he needs the day job, yes? It's all a matter of scale, and shock to draw the audience, that's what makes internet donation stuff work. Look at the examples I gave, those dollar values are a little more practical. Here's a better thought; I form another 501(c)(3) as a think tank and take on people from this list as the "tankers". You donate your papers and thoughts and get a tax break based on the valuation, and hopefully we raise money to do experiments. Get paid to post, from Uncle Sam (grin). Sounds good? I would actually be partial to doing this, but again without a full time grant writer or fund raiser it's likely going to be a labor of love and a distraction from what work needs to be done. Jed takes donations for his CF library, he's gotten about 2K as a result of his prodigious efforts. I think that should give you a sense of just what it would take to fund something based on this method. It's a tough slog, as Don Rumsfeld likes to opine. Jed's angel is Infinite Energy, as he explains on his site. Here's what I do now to fund my work. http://www.kpnconsulting.com/products.htm No handouts required, just buy the software and you can be assured that the money goes towards "a good thing". Plus, you get a serious tool(s) for researching the patent databases. Lots of good stuff to be found there, especially useful for evaluating new claims ( you all remember SMOT? it was patented _years_ ago. ) I'm working on the 2005 version right now, in fact. Hey, I'm a capitalist at heart. Seems crazy in today's world; Horatio Alger has long since been dead and buried. But you know that. Still, we persist. K. -----Original Message----- From: John Steck [mailto:johnsteck tetrahelix.com] Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2005 5:19 PM To: Vortex-L Subject: RE: Another Challenge/ was RE: Gas Tax Hey Keith, set up a paypal account for donations. This might be a rag-tag group, but I bet $20 here and there from the active and lurkers alike would give you some operating capital with no strings attached. Personally I like to understand what I am funding before I elect to give up my lunch budget for it. Post a business plan. Post quarterly updates and progress reports. If it seems worthwhile and lets me fanaticize about one day being able to give both the bastards at ComEd and Nicor the bird I WANT IT. Lord knows I am not able to do it in MY basement... -j From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 19 16:30:10 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3JNTxRg023194; Tue, 19 Apr 2005 16:29:59 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3JNTvZM023175; Tue, 19 Apr 2005 16:29:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 16:29:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Mountainside solar towers Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 09:29:46 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j3JNTqRg023085 Resent-Message-ID: <3T7HJ.A._pF.1RZZCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59354 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Horace Heffner's message of Mon, 18 Apr 2005 12:21:56 -0800: Hi, [snip] >Any of the mountains not in parks or otherwise protected? Good question! "Serious" mountain ranges in outback Australia are rare, and most are indeed part of one national park or another. Finding one that is also relatively close to a major power consumer is even more difficult. However the Hamersley and Opthalmia ranges in Western Australia should make a good target, since they contain Australia's primary iron ore mines. The mines themselves should make willing customers for the power produced, and might even be convinced to share in the cost of construction. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 19 18:10:32 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3K1A2Ca027597; Tue, 19 Apr 2005 18:10:02 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3K1A04J027555; Tue, 19 Apr 2005 18:10:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 18:10:00 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20050420010953.50335.qmail web42106.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 11:09:53 +1000 (EST) From: Prometheus Effect Subject: Prometheus Effect To: FreeEnergy , Vortex MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <9SfV.A.auG.nvaZCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59355 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Randy Elston wrote: Hi Friends I was one of the individuals that Bought and Paid for a SMOT unit from Greg Watson. I never received it. I am extremely disappointed. If someone has a good e-mail address on him I would like it. In fact, feel free to forward this message to him. I am Randy Elston Hargraves in Oklahoma USA 1(405) 354-0044 Cell I feel Cheated ------------------------------------------- Hi Randy, Jed and any others who are owed SMOT kits. You might want to check out: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/prometheus_effect/ You wil be getting your SMOT kit complete with a new measurement system which proves the Prometheus Effect at the heart of the SMOT device is OU. Greg Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies. http://au.movies.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 19 21:35:11 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3K4Yni3023112; Tue, 19 Apr 2005 21:34:50 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3K4YlHZ023099; Tue, 19 Apr 2005 21:34:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 21:34:47 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20050419214223.029feda0 mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Sender: steven newenergytimes.com@mail.newenergytimes.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 21:43:16 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: COLD FUSION RETURNS TO MIT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_1753944109==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59356 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_1753944109==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE APRIL 20, 2005 CONTACT: Melissa Brown New Energy Times (310) 470-8189 COLD FUSION GOES BACK TO SCHOOL AT THE MASSACHUSETTS INSTITUTE OF TECHNOLOGY CAMBRIDGE, MASS, April 20, 2005 -- The Massachusetts Institute of Technology will host a daylong colloquium May 21, on the topics of cold fusion and other clean energy research. "The clean energy colloquium is a timely opportunity for the active but underfunded cold fusion community in the United States to discuss recent progress, perspectives and possible actions," research professor David J. Nagel of The George Washington University said. The debate on this controversial topic was rekindled by the 2004 Department of Energy cold fusion review (See "News" menu at the NewEnergyTimes.com Web site.) The reviewers remained undecided about cold fusion but encouraged further study in this mysterious new scientific field. "A healthy skepticism is warranted," says Steven B. Krivit, author of a recent book on cold fusion. "However, the facts show that cold fusion experiments have been demonstrated, reproduced, replicated and published in peer-review journals." Experimental evidence consistently demonstrates that nuclear-scale energy, in the form of heat, is being generated without harmful radiation, greenhouse gasses or nuclear waste. With the uncertain future of oil and natural gas supplies, and the undeniable rising cost of oil, the prospect of clean nuclear energy comes at an ideal time. One of the presenters, Dr. Mitchell Swartz of JET Thermal Products, has developed a working experimental cold fusion reactor. Swartz demonstrated the device at MIT in August 2003 during the 10th International Conference on Cold Fusion. Program and registration information for the colloquium is available under the "Conferences" menu at the NewEnergyTimes.com Web site. --=====================_1753944109==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
APRIL 20, 2005

CONTACT:
Melissa Brown
New Energy Times
(310) 470-8189



COLD FUSION GOES BACK TO SCHOOL AT
THE MASSACHUSETTS INSTITUTE OF TECHNOLOGY


CAMBRIDGE, MASS, April 20, 2005 -- The Massachusetts Institute of Technology will host a daylong colloquium May 21, on the topics of cold fusion and other clean energy research.

"The clean energy colloquium is a timely opportunity for the active but underfunded cold fusion community in the United States to discuss recent progress, perspectives and possible actions," research professor David J. Nagel of The George Washington University said.

The debate on this controversial topic was rekindled by the 2004 Department of Energy cold fusion review (See "News" menu at the NewEnergyTimes.com Web site.) The reviewers remained undecided about cold fusion but encouraged further study in this mysterious new scientific field.

"A healthy skepticism is warranted," says Steven B. Krivit, author of a recent book on cold fusion. "However, the facts show that cold fusion experiments have been demonstrated, reproduced, replicated and published in peer-review journals."

Experimental evidence consistently demonstrates that nuclear-scale energy, in the form of heat, is being generated without harmful radiation, greenhouse gasses or nuclear waste.

With the uncertain future of oil and natural gas supplies, and the undeniable rising cost of oil, the prospect of clean nuclear energy comes at an ideal time.

One of the presenters, Dr. Mitchell Swartz of JET Thermal Products, has developed a working experimental cold fusion reactor. Swartz demonstrated the device at MIT in August 2003 during the 10th International Conference on Cold Fusion.

Program and registration information for the colloquium is available under the "Conferences" menu at the NewEnergyTimes.com Web site.

--=====================_1753944109==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 20 04:13:43 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3KBDZPs031634; Wed, 20 Apr 2005 04:13:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3KBDYm0031624; Wed, 20 Apr 2005 04:13:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 04:13:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.1.2.0.1.20050420065945.0228abc0 pop.theworld.com> X-Sender: mica pop.theworld.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.2.0 Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 07:12:41 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: 2005 CF Colloquium at MIT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <0Ua35.A.CuH.dljZCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59357 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Vorts: It is a pleasure to announce that the 2005 COLD FUSION Colloquium at MIT, Cambridge Massachusetts is now expanded from 9AM to (at least) 5 PM with the addition of several new speakers, including MIT Prof. Robert Rines who will lead the discussion on the Patent Offices' response to cold fusion patent applications. Many thanks to those who are contributing to this educational scientific cornucopia. Dr. Mitchell Swartz ================ ================ The 2005 Cold Fusion Colloquium with Special Tribute to Dr. Eugene Mallove, Cold Fusioneer, Investigator and MIT Graduate '69 General Topics Science and Engineering Discussions of Cold Fusion Material Science, Review of Present literature concerning Cold Fusion Theoretical Understandings of Cold Fusion Cold Fusion Device Engineering Cold Fusion Patents and Intellectual Property Colloquium Schedule: Saturday, 5/21/05, 9 AM Massachusetts Institute of Technology Colloquium Information - More information, program, pre-registration: http://world.std.com/~mica/colloq.html Colloquium Announcement and Updates http://world.std.com/~mica/cft.html Colloquium Registration To register for the program, e-mail Richard Shyduroff =================================================== Tentative Scientific/Engineering Program (in progress): Morning Program: Experiment Reports of Cold Fusion Systems Acoustic-induced Cold Fusion Experiments Experimental Cold Fusion Results Experimental Evidence of Optimal Operating Points Palladium Catalysis of Deuterium Chemistry/Economics of Palladium Catalysis of Deuterium Late Morning Program: Theoretical Strides in Understanding of Cold Fusion Systems Theory - Continuum Electromechanical Control of Loading Theory - Phonons and Cold Fusion Theory - Explanations for the Absence of Neutrons and Bremsstrahlung Theory - Deuteron and Charge Transfer in Loaded Palladium Theory - Ion Band States and Cold Fusion Theory - Micro/Nano Scale High-Density Plasmas and Cold Fusion/Acoustic-Induced Cold Fusion ============ Lunch ============== Afternoon Program Tribute to Dr. Eugene Mallove, Cold Fusioneer, Investigator and MIT Graduate More Experimental Reports Alternative Energy using Latent Energy of Water Cold Fusion Remediation Experiments Developments in Emerging Energy Solutions Late Afternoon Program: Panel Discussion Cold Fusion Patents and Intellectual Property Future Developments in Cold Fusion and Alternative Clean Energy Sources ==== Cold Fusion Panel and Lecture Participants ========= Scientific Coordinator: Dr. Mitchell Swartz, '70, JET Thermal Products General Coordinator Richard Shyduroff, MIT Prof. Peter Hagelstein, MIT Prof. Keith Johnson, MIT Prof Robert Rines, MIT Dr. Scott Chubb Dr. Talbot Chubb Prof. John Dash Prof. David Nagel Prof. Yeong Kim Dr. Robert Bass Dr. Russ George Prof. Peter Graneau Dr. Les Case Dr. Hal Fox ==== Location and Time of Colloquium Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Cambridge Massachusetts Eastman Kodak Room, 6-120 Saturday, 5/21/05, 9 AM to 5 PM ==== Pre-registration To register for the program, e-mail Richard Shyduroff If you have further interest in the developing technical program, or wish to help, email Dr. Swartz ===== HOSTED BY: The MIT E-Club MIT Seminar 089 MIT Seminar 095 Cold Fusion Times JET Thermal Products ZeroPoint From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 20 08:33:13 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3KFX2Ps023898; Wed, 20 Apr 2005 08:33:02 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3KFX0sk023857; Wed, 20 Apr 2005 08:33:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 08:33:00 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: "Vortex" Subject: Spontaneous ignition Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 11:35:10 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59358 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Thought this might be of interest to the group, http://www.ornl.gov/info/press_releases/get_press_release.cfm?ReleaseNumber=mr20050419-00 OAK RIDGE, Tenn., April 19, 2005 — Zhiyu Hu believes it is possible to match nature's highly efficient method to convert chemicals into thermal energy at room temperature, and he has data and a published paper to support his theory. In a paper scheduled to appear in the May 18 print issue of the American Chemical Society's Energy & Fuels, Oak Ridge National Laboratory's Hu describes a novel method to achieve spontaneous ignition and sustained combustion at room temperature. "This wasn't research that was funded, so I worked evenings and weekends to try to understand why and how this happened," Hu said. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 20 10:45:52 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3KHjcPs031642; Wed, 20 Apr 2005 10:45:39 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3KHjbZV031629; Wed, 20 Apr 2005 10:45:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 10:45:37 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002a01c545cb$f906feb0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: , "Vortex" References: Subject: Re: Spontaneous ignition Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 10:11:19 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59359 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: K, Call me dense this morning, but don't get the implications of this work. All that seems to have been accomplished is to dispense with the need of a spark. Is that so earth-shaking? Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 20 11:13:03 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3KIClPs015554; Wed, 20 Apr 2005 11:12:47 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3KICiOE015527; Wed, 20 Apr 2005 11:12:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 11:12:44 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Spontaneous ignition Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 14:14:43 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <002a01c545cb$f906feb0$6401a8c0 NuDell> Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59360 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hey Jones, Frankly, I wasn't entirely sure myself. It seemed like some basic catalytic research to me. When the paper comes out perhaps it will be clearer. It sounds like he's got a nice catalyst for burning methanol, likely the novelty is in application to fuel cells. http://www.fctec.com/fctec_types_dmfc.asp I remember reading something about this for laptop power supplies, if it works for ethanol that would be some product huh? Do shots with your computer; it'd sell faster than you could manufacture. K. -----Original Message----- From: Jones Beene [mailto:jonesb9 pacbell.net] Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2005 1:11 PM To: knagel gis.net; Vortex Subject: Re: Spontaneous ignition K, Call me dense this morning, but don't get the implications of this work. All that seems to have been accomplished is to dispense with the need of a spark. Is that so earth-shaking? Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 20 11:31:22 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3KIV9Ps028665; Wed, 20 Apr 2005 11:31:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3KIV67V028613; Wed, 20 Apr 2005 11:31:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 11:31:06 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: Spontaneous ignition X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: ID = 909b8a8ff0cae19159d456a4b333f05c Reply-To: michael.foster excite.com From: "Michael Foster" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: michael.foster excite.com X-Mailer: PHP Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050420183043.AC480AFA91 xprdmailfe5.nwk.excite.com> Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 14:30:43 -0400 (EDT) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59361 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --- On Wed 04/20, Keith Nagel < knagel gis.net > wrote: > Thought this might be of interest to the group, > OAK RIDGE, Tenn., April 19, 2005 — Zhiyu Hu believes > it is possible to match nature's highly efficient method > to convert chemicals into thermal energy at room temperature, > and he has data and a published paper to support his theory. > In a paper scheduled to appear in the May 18 print issue of > the American Chemical Society's Energy & Fuels, Oak Ridge > National Laboratory's Hu describes a novel method to achieve > spontaneous ignition and sustained combustion at room temperature. It seems everything old is new again. This effect was observed by Lord Rayleigh and others 100 years ago or so. Only they didn't call it a "nano-catalytic reaction". And in terms of any advantages over plain old combustion, Jed, this could lead to a low-temp fuel cell. Also, for uses where high temperatures are not required the lack of a flame would substantially reduce or eliminate NOx. Incidentally, there should be some broad hints here for CF researchers. M. _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 20 14:00:05 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3KKxiY4000475; Wed, 20 Apr 2005 13:59:45 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3KKxhKm000439; Wed, 20 Apr 2005 13:59:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 13:59:43 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: Spontaneous ignition X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: ID = 909b8a8ff0cae19159d456a4b333f05c Reply-To: michael.foster excite.com From: "Michael Foster" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: michael.foster excite.com X-Mailer: PHP Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050420205929.26F313E3E xprdmailfe12.nwk.excite.com> Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 16:59:29 -0400 (EDT) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59362 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I wrote: > And in terms of any advantages over plain old combustion, Jed, > this could lead to a low-temp fuel cell. Also, for uses where > high temperatures are not required the lack of a flame would > substantially reduce or eliminate NOx. Oops, I meant Jones. Sorry. M. _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 20 14:43:25 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3KLhEcH023339; Wed, 20 Apr 2005 14:43:14 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3KLhDY3023325; Wed, 20 Apr 2005 14:43:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 14:43:13 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <009b01c545f1$ed4871f0$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: , References: <20050420205929.26F313E3E xprdmailfe12.nwk.excite.com> Subject: Re: Spontaneous ignition Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 14:43:01 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59363 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Foster" >> And in terms of any advantages over plain old combustion, >> this could lead to a low-temp fuel cell. PEM fuel cells are already low temp ~150 degrees >> Also, for uses where >> high temperatures are not required the lack of a flame would >> substantially reduce or eliminate NOx. Coleman-type wicks can do that.... forty years ago I had a flameless "pocket hand warmer" - flameless... but scary in a polyester parka .... http://www.safetycentral.com/jonhanwarac.html actually, I thought they had been banned, until googling just now ... as they were easy to "misuse"... apparently Murphy's Law did not get them off the market. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 20 18:41:17 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3L1f1if020674; Wed, 20 Apr 2005 18:41:02 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3L1eamd020539; Wed, 20 Apr 2005 18:40:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 18:40:36 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <5206788.1114047632626.JavaMail.root wamui08.slb.atl.earthlink.net> Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 21:40:32 -0400 (GMT-04:00) From: Jed Rothwell Reply-To: Jed Rothwell To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: OFF TOPIC National Association For Information Destruction Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Earthlink Zoo Mail 1.0 Resent-Message-ID: <6hImHB.A.yAF.USwZCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59364 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I have long suspected there must a conspiracy along these lines. Yes, there really is a National Association, but oddly enough Microsoft is not a member. See: http://www.naidonline.org/index.html - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 21 04:58:52 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3LBwgif016405; Thu, 21 Apr 2005 04:58:42 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3LBwet7016392; Thu, 21 Apr 2005 04:58:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 04:58:40 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000a01c54669$70e826a0$4e037841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: Spontaneous ignition Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 06:58:31 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0006_01C5463F.875DC2C0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-99.1 required=4.0 tests=HTML_30_40,HTML_MESSAGE, HTML_TAG_EXISTS_TBODY,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59365 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C5463F.875DC2C0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0007_01C5463F.875F4960" ------=_NextPart_001_0007_01C5463F.875F4960 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankAnother view of such taken from NASA website Hypergolic propellants are fuels and oxidizers which ignite on = contact with each other and need no ignition source. This easy start and = restart capability makes them attractive for both manned and unmanned = spacecraft maneuvering systems. Another plus is their storability =97 = they do not have the extreme temperature requirements of cryogenics. The fuel is monomethyl hydrazine (MMH) and the oxidizer is = nitrogen tetroxide (N2O4).=20 =20 Perhaps the ancient Chinese were the first to experiment with stuff that = goes bang in the night and thereafter came=20 Oak Ridge Labs. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0007_01C5463F.875F4960 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Another view of such taken from NASA website

Hypergolic propellants are fuels = and oxidizers=20 which ignite on contact with each other and need no ignition = source. This=20 easy start and restart capability makes them attractive for both = manned=20 and unmanned spacecraft maneuvering systems. Another plus is their = storability =97 they do not have the extreme temperature = requirements of=20 cryogenics.

The fuel is monomethyl hydrazine = (MMH) and the=20 oxidizer is nitrogen tetroxide (N2O4). =

 
Perhaps the ancient Chinese were the first to experiment with stuff = that=20 goes bang in the night and thereafter came
Oak Ridge Labs.
 
Richard
------=_NextPart_001_0007_01C5463F.875F4960-- ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C5463F.875DC2C0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000501c54669$70260f20$4e037841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C5463F.875DC2C0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 21 05:20:08 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3LCJwif023683; Thu, 21 Apr 2005 05:19:59 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3LCJvRt023673; Thu, 21 Apr 2005 05:19:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 05:19:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: <47a1c96e-be72-45bc-9784-5b941423c760> Message-ID: <001a01c5466c$69e62570$d158ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <000a01c54669$70e826a0$4e037841 xptower> Subject: Re: Spontaneous ignition Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 08:19:44 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59366 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Blank Richard wrote: Another view of such taken from NASA website Hypergolic propellants are fuels and oxidizers which ignite on contact with each other and need no ignition source. This easy start and restart capability makes them attractive for both manned and unmanned spacecraft maneuvering systems. Another plus is their storability — they do not have the extreme temperature requirements of cryogenics. The fuel is monomethyl hydrazine (MMH) and the oxidizer is nitrogen tetroxide (N2O4). Perhaps the ancient Chinese were the first to experiment with stuff that goes bang in the night and thereafter came Oak Ridge Labs. Richard ------------------------------------ Both of these compounds are highly toxic. Hydrazine has been used a propellant in automotive air bags. the ancitne Chinese were extremely competent in many surprising ways, and far ahead of Europe. However, it is unlikely their chemistry was good enough to produce the above chemicals. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 21 12:46:55 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3LJkc1Z014188; Thu, 21 Apr 2005 12:46:39 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3LJkbiC014179; Thu, 21 Apr 2005 12:46:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 12:46:37 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Spontaneous ignition Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 15:48:23 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <001a01c5466c$69e62570$d158ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59367 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Whilst a rocket propelled laptop would be as exciting and saleable as a liquour propelled one, there would be some liability problems with the former that make the later more appealing (grin). Is there a twelve step program for my Dell Inspiron? I was always partial to the famous rocket designer Bob Truax's formula, nitric acid and aniline. Makes a dandy hypergolic fuel. He did the first JATO device for the Navy with this, I think. Beat out Goddard who tried gasoline and LOX, all kinds of problems with that and it didn't autoignite. Come to think of it, laptops and cellphones _do_ explode on occassion. Cheap lithium batteries that build up elemental lithium aren't as fun as sodium, but it does the job. Never go cheap on batteries. K. -----Original Message----- From: Mike Carrell [mailto:mikec snip.net] Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2005 8:20 AM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Spontaneous ignition Blank Richard wrote: Another view of such taken from NASA website Hypergolic propellants are fuels and oxidizers which ignite on contact with each other and need no ignition source. This easy start and restart capability makes them attractive for both manned and unmanned spacecraft maneuvering systems. Another plus is their storability — they do not have the extreme temperature requirements of cryogenics. The fuel is monomethyl hydrazine (MMH) and the oxidizer is nitrogen tetroxide (N2O4). Perhaps the ancient Chinese were the first to experiment with stuff that goes bang in the night and thereafter came Oak Ridge Labs. Richard ------------------------------------ Both of these compounds are highly toxic. Hydrazine has been used a propellant in automotive air bags. the ancitne Chinese were extremely competent in many surprising ways, and far ahead of Europe. However, it is unlikely their chemistry was good enough to produce the above chemicals. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 21 12:50:43 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3LJoT1Z015645; Thu, 21 Apr 2005 12:50:29 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3LJoR2s015616; Thu, 21 Apr 2005 12:50:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 12:50:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Baronvolsung aol.com Message-ID: <84.43fc9941.2f995df4 aol.com> Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 15:50:12 EDT Subject: Objective Physics & Goethe To: vortex-l eskimo.com CC: Baronvolsung aol.com, ThomasClark123@aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_84.43fc9941.2f995df4_boundary" X-Mailer: 6.0 sub 10578 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59368 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --part1_84.43fc9941.2f995df4_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ""Objective Physics in the words of Goethe is the one, which holds the world together in the heart of hearts" Scalar Waves Konstantine Meyl Pg. 587, Indel, 2003" "Scalar Waves Konstantine Meyl Pg. 586, Indel, 2003 Physical Stand Points: subjectivity (Laboratory physics observable), Newton, Maxwell, Galilei-transf. c = infinity relativity (mediator role transformation), Poincare, Einstein, Lorents-transf. c = constant objectivity (not observable), Bosovich (dual approach), (new transf. ) c = variable. " Baron Von Volsung, www.rhfweb.com\baron, Email: www.rhfweb.com\emailform.html President Thomas D. Clark, Email: www.rhfweb.com\emailform.html, Personal Web Page: www.rhfweb.com\personal New Age Production's Inc., www.rhfweb.com\newage Star Haven Community Services, at www.rhfweb.com\sh. Radiation Health Foundation Trust at www.rhfweb.com Making a difference one person at a time Get informed. Inform others. --part1_84.43fc9941.2f995df4_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
""Objective Physics in the words of Goethe is the one, which holds the w= orld together in the heart of hearts" Scalar Waves Konstantine Meyl Pg. 587,= Indel, 2003"

"Scalar Waves Konstantine Meyl Pg. 586, Indel, 2003

Physical Stand Points:

subjectivity (Laboratory physics observable), Newton, Maxwell, Galilei-t= ransf. c =3D infinity
relativity (mediator role transformation), Poincare, Einstein, Lorents-t= ransf. c =3D constant
objectivity (not observable), Bosovich (dual approach), (new transf. ) c= =3D variable. "


Baron Von Volsung, www.rhfweb.co= m\baron, Email: www.rhf= web.com\emailform.html=20
President Thomas D. Clark, Email: www.rhfweb.com\emailform.html,=20
Personal Web Page: www.rhfweb= .com\personal=20
New Age Production's Inc., www.= rhfweb.com\newage=20
Star Haven Community Services, at w= ww.rhfweb.com\sh.=20
Radiation Health Foundation Trust at = www.rhfweb.com=20

Making a difference one person at a time=20
Get informed. Inform others.=20
--part1_84.43fc9941.2f995df4_boundary-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 21 13:53:11 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3LKr0UI013464; Thu, 21 Apr 2005 13:53:00 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3LKqwpm013449; Thu, 21 Apr 2005 13:52:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 13:52:58 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Why 06 is the Peak Year Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 16:52:51 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050421205251.LJRI2032.imf24aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59369 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: http://www.guardian.co.uk/life/feature/story/0,13026,1464050,00.html "About 944bn barrels of oil has so far been extracted, some 764bn remains extractable in known fields, or reserves, and a further 142bn of reserves are classed as 'yet-to-find', meaning what oil is expected to be discovered. If this is so, then the overall oil peak arrives next year," From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 21 13:54:41 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3LKsAUI013952; Thu, 21 Apr 2005 13:54:10 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3LKrx9j013853; Thu, 21 Apr 2005 13:53:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 13:53:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <426812FD.5020004 pobox.com> Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 16:54:21 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.5) Gecko/20050105 Debian/1.7.5-1 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Spontaneous ignition References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59370 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Keith Nagel wrote: >Whilst a rocket propelled laptop would be as exciting and saleable >as a liquour propelled one, there would be some liability problems >with the former that make the later more appealing (grin). >Is there a twelve step program for my Dell Inspiron? > >I was always partial to the famous rocket designer Bob Truax's >formula, nitric acid and aniline. Makes a dandy hypergolic >fuel. He did the first JATO device for the Navy with this, I think. >Beat out Goddard who tried gasoline and LOX, all kinds >of problems with that and it didn't autoignite. > >Come to think of it, laptops and cellphones _do_ explode on >occassion. > Say what??? Do you get any kind of hint before they let go, or does the phone just unexpectedly blow your head off in the middle of a conversation? And regarding laptops, this definitely makes me feel a bit less sanguine about actually using the beast on my _lap_. > Cheap lithium batteries that build up elemental >lithium aren't as fun as sodium, but it does the job. Never >go cheap on batteries. > >K. > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 21 14:25:01 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3LLOlUI026240; Thu, 21 Apr 2005 14:24:47 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3LLOjl5026214; Thu, 21 Apr 2005 14:24:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 14:24:45 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Spontaneous ignition Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 17:27:02 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <426812FD.5020004 pobox.com> Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59371 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Yeah Stephen, no joke, cheap lithium batteries have been known to explode. Here's a sample link, google for more. http://www.pcworld.com/news/article/0,aid,113416,00.asp For a while there were many stories in the papers about this problem, I even remember seeing video of a phone exploding. I shamefully admit that I got a chuckle reading about this, the number of people who just yak away on these things in public places makes me feel less than charitable. But it would suck, to be sure. The battery gets very hot before it blows, so you would get a warning of sorts. This is more of a manufacturer problem, a well designed battery won't do this. A cheap knockoff will, however. It's either the big head with a phone, or the little head with the laptop. Either way, you're a hurting puppy. I haven't heard more stories recently, I suspect whomever was importing and selling these things was reigned in. K. -----Original Message----- From: Stephen A. Lawrence [mailto:salaw pobox.com] Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2005 4:54 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Spontaneous ignition Keith Nagel wrote: >Whilst a rocket propelled laptop would be as exciting and saleable >as a liquour propelled one, there would be some liability problems >with the former that make the later more appealing (grin). >Is there a twelve step program for my Dell Inspiron? > >I was always partial to the famous rocket designer Bob Truax's >formula, nitric acid and aniline. Makes a dandy hypergolic >fuel. He did the first JATO device for the Navy with this, I think. >Beat out Goddard who tried gasoline and LOX, all kinds >of problems with that and it didn't autoignite. > >Come to think of it, laptops and cellphones _do_ explode on >occassion. > Say what??? Do you get any kind of hint before they let go, or does the phone just unexpectedly blow your head off in the middle of a conversation? And regarding laptops, this definitely makes me feel a bit less sanguine about actually using the beast on my _lap_. > Cheap lithium batteries that build up elemental >lithium aren't as fun as sodium, but it does the job. Never >go cheap on batteries. > >K. > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 21 21:33:14 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3M4WiSb015876; Thu, 21 Apr 2005 21:32:44 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3M4WcRQ015817; Thu, 21 Apr 2005 21:32:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 21:32:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20050422043231.29193.qmail web42103.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 14:32:31 +1000 (EST) From: Prometheus Effect Subject: Prometheus Effect and SMOT kits To: FreeEnergy , Vortex MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59372 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A Randy E Hargraves wrote: > Hi Friends > I was one of the individuals that Bought and Paid > for a SMOT unit from Greg Watson I never received > it. > > I am extremely disappointed. > > If some one has a good e-mail address on him I > would like it. > > In fact, feel free to forward this message to him. > I am Randy Elston Hargraves > in Oklahoma USA > > 1(405) 354-0044 Cell > I feel Cheated Hi Randy, You need to checkout the site I have created which has ample proof that the Prometheus Effect, at the heart of the SMOT device, is OU: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/prometheus_effect/ You will get your SMOT complete with a new real time measurement system which allows rapid ramp adjustment to obtain max OU energy creation. I expect to start shipping unit in about 2 months so anyone else who didn't get or want their money back, just send me your delivery details. All the best Greg Watson (Prometheus Effect) Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies. http://au.movies.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 22 01:57:00 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3M8uoTi006104; Fri, 22 Apr 2005 01:56:51 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3M8unTw006093; Fri, 22 Apr 2005 01:56:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 01:56:49 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 03:57:23 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: the importance? of spelling Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: <0mXf1.A.JfB.QxLaCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59373 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Vortexians; I spotted this and couldn't help reflecting on the power of the human brain to pick out patterns, either in the arrangement of the letters or the context of the sentence which allows us to get the message. Lets see the AI researchers duplicate this! 1. Can You Read Bad Spelling? From: Ulster-Scots Language Society -----Original Message----- From: P Leonard [mailto:pleonard751 dromorehigh.down.ni.sch.uk] Subject: I take great comfort from this!!! Don't delete this because you think it looks weird. Believe it or not you can actually read it! I cdnuolt blveiee taht I cluod aulaclty uesdnatnrd waht I was rdanieg. The phaonmneal pweor of the hmuan mnid. Aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoatnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be in the rghit pclae. The rset can be a taotl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit a porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe. Amzanig huh? Yaeh.... I konw, and I awlyas thought slpeling was ipmorantt! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 22 05:26:38 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3MCQSXW012686; Fri, 22 Apr 2005 05:26:29 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3MCQQq1012673; Fri, 22 Apr 2005 05:26:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 05:26:26 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: Message-ID: <003c01c54736$7a69fe60$d158ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: Subject: Re: the importance? of spelling Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 08:26:08 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59374 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Tomhas Mollay wtore: > Vortexians; > > I spotted this and couldn't help reflecting on the power of the human > brain to pick out patterns, either in the arrangement of the letters > or the context of the sentence which allows us to get the message. > Lets see the AI researchers duplicate this! > > > 1. Can You Read Bad Spelling? > From: Ulster-Scots Language Society > -----Original Message----- > From: P Leonard [mailto:pleonard751 dromorehigh.down.ni.sch.uk] > > Subject: I take great comfort from this!!! > > Don't delete this because you think it looks weird. Believe it or not > you can actually read it! > > I cdnuolt blveiee taht I cluod aulaclty uesdnatnrd waht I was rdanieg. > > The phaonmneal pweor of the hmuan mnid. > > Aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer > in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoatnt tihng is > taht the frist and lsat ltteer be in the rghit pclae. The rset can be > a taotl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit a porbelm. Tihs is > bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the > wrod as a wlohe. > > Amzanig huh? Yaeh.... I konw, and I awlyas thought slpeling was ipmorantt! -------------------------------------------- Adults have learned to recognize the form of familiar words, without parsing them. This does not help with unfamiliar words, or students learning to read. This leads to students who can't read because they never learned how to take a word apart, as in phonetics. So, yes, an an adult can get away with sloppy spelling which is common in the computer world because we are not all accurate typers, including me, who rely on spell checkers and get lazy with that. But don't teach children that way, which is extremely lazy and deadly pedagogy. Mike Carrell > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 22 05:44:48 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3MCiUXW019227; Fri, 22 Apr 2005 05:44:34 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3MCiSDQ019209; Fri, 22 Apr 2005 05:44:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 05:44:28 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 05:44:26 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: avalonbiker yahoo.com, Goodhigbee@aol.com Subject: Spontaneous invisibility: in the movies Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59375 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > Nick R. wrote: > You might like to read this article - written about 10 years ago by a > researcher in California. The author, Donna Higbee, describes some > further cases of the phenomenon. Apart from Ms. Higbee's paper, I had > not heard anything more about the effect until this posting by you! > http://members.aol.com/Rapunz1/invisibility.html That's a coincidence. I just heard about an excellent old B&W film, "Carnival of Souls." I'd never seen it before, and thought it was just another of those old 50s drive in movie horror films. Nope. Go track down a copy. The main character becomes spontaneously invisible twice, only returning to normal when she accidentally grasps a tree: http://www.google.com/search?num=100&q=%22carnival+of+souls%22+%2Binvisible+-%22invisible+ghost%22 The movie is worth tracking down all on its own; very creepy, in the "Twilight Zone" sense. It was the only fictional film made by a producer of grade school education films, which probably adds much to the strange atmosphere. (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb at amasci com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 22 06:28:27 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3MDSHXW008034; Fri, 22 Apr 2005 06:28:17 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3MDSFSQ008023; Fri, 22 Apr 2005 06:28:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 06:28:15 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 06:28:14 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: archive.org, the "wayback machine" In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050411123208.02bef5b8 pop.mindspring.com> Message-ID: References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050411123208.02bef5b8 pop.mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59376 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Just FYI, copies of very old defunct websites can by found by placing this in front of the sites' original URL: http://web.archive.org/web/*/ For example, http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/index.html (Note: if you forget this secret phrase, you can find it near the bottom of the main page of amasci.com.) Also check out the top page, http://archive.org They now have movies, see Prelinger Archive and AV Geeks. On Mon, 11 Apr 2005, Jed Rothwell wrote: > I wonder how many people read our papers from here instead of the present > site. Probably not many. Since archive.org doesn't have a search engine, and isn't indexed by google, the users must type in the URL by hand. Most internet denizen never do this. On the other hand, some site maintainers will add an archive.org link to a worthwhile site, but only after that site has gone defunct. Example: Space as Quaternion Structure http://web.archive.org/web/20020127145633/http://skd.ca/hypercomplex/discussion/discuss.html (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb at amasci com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 22 06:55:48 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3MDtZXW026267; Fri, 22 Apr 2005 06:55:35 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3MDtWVu026252; Fri, 22 Apr 2005 06:55:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 06:55:33 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Killing Two Birds Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 9:55:26 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050422135526.LBRV2434.imf17aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59377 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: A local boy's idea for making H2 and sequestering C02: http://www.eprida.com/hydro/ecoss/presentations/NHA/Poster_Handout.pdf From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 22 10:28:51 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3MHSRXW006625; Fri, 22 Apr 2005 10:28:28 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3MHSNME006575; Fri, 22 Apr 2005 10:28:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 10:28:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-UNTD-OriginStamp: GUNT6dKCgH8aoKLPKyRSHtugxkiiefgwjMqZ4AbHL8bQVG/M4Jdejg== X-Originating-IP: [4.88.34.81] Mime-Version: 1.0 From: "gesrebspar juno.com" Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 17:25:12 GMT To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Prometheus Effect and SMOT kits X-Mailer: Webmail Version 3.0 Content-Type: text/plain Message-Id: <20050422.102608.5403.491066 webmail22.nyc.untd.com> X-ContentStamp: 2:2:1064106945 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59378 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: What is the Prometheus effect? From what I have read Prometheus is the Greek god who took fire from the Gods on MT. Olympus and gave it to man-for which he was punished by Zeus.- GES From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 22 10:50:57 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3MHolXW017974; Fri, 22 Apr 2005 10:50:47 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3MHoi8e017953; Fri, 22 Apr 2005 10:50:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 10:50:44 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Prometheus Effect and SMOT kits Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 13:53:04 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <20050422.102608.5403.491066 webmail22.nyc.untd.com> X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59380 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A Wouldn't you know, I mentioned SMOT a few days ago, and who should reappear, but Greg Watson... Beetlegeuse beetlegeuse beetlegeuse! For those looking for refunds from our last go around, try his list. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Prometheus_Effect He's blaming Vortex in particular for misleading him into trying to close the loop. Not to worry Greg, the reality based community has long since vanished. K. -----Original Message----- From: gesrebspar juno.com [mailto:gesrebspar@juno.com] Sent: Friday, April 22, 2005 1:25 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Prometheus Effect and SMOT kits What is the Prometheus effect? From what I have read Prometheus is the Greek god who took fire from the Gods on MT. Olympus and gave it to man-for which he was punished by Zeus.- GES From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 22 11:07:26 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3MI6nXW024675; Fri, 22 Apr 2005 11:06:49 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3MI6iqs024624; Fri, 22 Apr 2005 11:06:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 11:06:44 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 11:06:39 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: Vortex cc: FreeEnergy Subject: Re: Prometheus Effect and SMOT kits In-Reply-To: <20050422043231.29193.qmail web42103.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: References: <20050422043231.29193.qmail web42103.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59381 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Fri, 22 Apr 2005, Prometheus Effect wrote: > Hi Randy, > > You need to checkout the site I have created which has > ample proof that the Prometheus Effect, at the heart > of the SMOT device, is OU: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/prometheus_effect/ You've finally closed the loop?!!!!!!!! How long does it run? Or is this just another of those "measurement OU" claims which cannot self-act to perform continuous work (minutes or hours long) against friction? (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb at amasci com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 22 11:33:55 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3MIXdXW005518; Fri, 22 Apr 2005 11:33:40 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3MIXY4x005475; Fri, 22 Apr 2005 11:33:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 11:33:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 11:33:32 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: Prometheus Effect and SMOT kits In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59382 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Fri, 22 Apr 2005, Keith Nagel wrote: > He's blaming Vortex in particular for misleading him into > trying to close the loop. Not to worry Greg, the reality based > community has long since vanished. So he HASN'T closed the loop? Forget vortex, he can blame Bill Beaty for misleading him and leading the cry of "close the loop." Let me say it better: if he cannot close the loop and run it continuously, then there's very probably some mistake involved, and it's not OU. We humans love to fool ourselves. Therefore in our saner moments we have to set up some sort of mechanism that can burst our of self delusion. In the Free Energy biz, one such mechanism is this belief: Small amounts of measured OU cannot be trusted. To demonstrate that the OU is not illusory, just close the loop and run your device continuously for several closed cycles, for seconds or minutes (or better, for weeks.) If closing the loop always remains our goal, then perhaps we won't be led down the path of endless futzing with energy measurements. Sure, we measure the energy so we can tune the device and work towards closing the loop. But energy measurements won't convince a Disbeliever to come across with some funding. And history shows that the energy measurements can sometimes end up leading us into delusional beliefs; beliefs that we're seeing a true anomaly, when all we've really done is constructed dishonest *mental* structures which let us misinterpret what's going on. Never forget Feynman's advice, condensed from his Cargo Cult essay: the true essence of science is absolutely brutal self-honesty. We're always fooling ourselves, and we fool ourselves so easily. Our normal complement of psychological defenses keeps us happy through self-lies and perceptual distortion, so unless we actively fight against such warpings, we should assume that we've become their unsuspecting victims. Nature involves many bits of inconvient reality we cannot stand to face. To deal with Nature, we have to match its level of ruthless honesty. (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb at amasci com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 22 16:47:42 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3MNl9Ak017233; Fri, 22 Apr 2005 16:47:10 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3MNl61h017198; Fri, 22 Apr 2005 16:47:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 16:47:06 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20050422234658.1427.qmail web42104.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 09:46:58 +1000 (EST) From: Prometheus Effect Subject: Re: Prometheus Effect and SMOT kits To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: 6667 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59384 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- William Beaty wrote: > On Fri, 22 Apr 2005, Prometheus Effect wrote: > > Or is this just another of those "measurement OU" > claims which cannot > self-act to perform continuous work (minutes or > hours long) against > friction? Hi Bill, Please checkout the data on the site. Now it's just engineering effort, time and money, Greg Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies. http://au.movies.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 22 16:51:38 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3MNpQAk019872; Fri, 22 Apr 2005 16:51:30 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3MNpOFP019852; Fri, 22 Apr 2005 16:51:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 16:51:24 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20050422235118.34204.qmail web42101.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 09:51:18 +1000 (EST) From: Prometheus Effect Subject: RE: Prometheus Effect and SMOT kits To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: 6667 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <7JSJOB.A.I2E.73YaCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59385 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- William Beaty wrote: > On Fri, 22 Apr 2005, Keith Nagel wrote: > > To deal with Nature, we have to match its level of > ruthless honesty. Hi Bill, Agreeded. I have made a full disclosure of the Prometheus Effect. No theory, just hard nose measurements via two different measurement system. Now it's just engineering effort, time and money, Greg Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies. http://au.movies.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 22 17:17:58 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3N0HGXr028805; Fri, 22 Apr 2005 17:17:17 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3N0GdxX028579; Fri, 22 Apr 2005 17:16:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 17:16:39 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <426993DF.4050702 bellsouth.net> Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 20:16:31 -0400 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040804 Netscape/7.2 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Prometheus Effect and SMOT kits References: <20050422235118.34204.qmail web42101.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20050422235118.34204.qmail web42101.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <5jlOHB.A.O-G.jPZaCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59386 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mr. Watson (I presume), You have mentioned my name in msg #150 on your forum, please to remove it. I admire your affinity for acronyms, particularly "PEPMM" but your partial disclosure demands a total disclosure if you plan to patent your product here in the GOUSA, IMO, however, IANAL. This is *not* a casual request. Terry %copyright% Prometheus Effect wrote: >--- William Beaty wrote: > > >>On Fri, 22 Apr 2005, Keith Nagel wrote: >> >>To deal with Nature, we have to match its level of >>ruthless honesty. >> From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 22 17:53:32 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3N0rLXr007925; Fri, 22 Apr 2005 17:53:21 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3N0rIfv007899; Fri, 22 Apr 2005 17:53:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 17:53:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20050423005310.92152.qmail web42107.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 10:53:10 +1000 (EST) From: Prometheus Effect Subject: Re: Prometheus Effect and SMOT kits To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: 6667 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <7-CVXC.A.X7B.-xZaCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59387 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Terry, In the message I gave you credit for the stepped magnet arrays used my some SMOT builders but I will remove the message as requested. All the best, Greg Watson Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies. http://au.movies.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 22 18:54:32 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3N1sBXr003983; Fri, 22 Apr 2005 18:54:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3N1s8Be003963; Fri, 22 Apr 2005 18:54:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 18:54:08 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4269AAC8.4020803 bellsouth.net> Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 21:54:16 -0400 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040804 Netscape/7.2 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Prometheus Effect and SMOT kits References: <20050423005310.92152.qmail web42107.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20050423005310.92152.qmail web42107.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59389 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Prometheus Effect wrote: >Hi Terry, > >In the message I gave you credit for the stepped >magnet arrays used my some SMOT builders but I will >remove the message as requested. > Yes, thanks for your compliance. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 22 18:54:44 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3N1sKXr004041; Fri, 22 Apr 2005 18:54:21 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3N1rcYh003781; Fri, 22 Apr 2005 18:53:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 18:53:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4269AA27.6040109 bellsouth.net> Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 21:51:35 -0400 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040804 Netscape/7.2 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Prometheus Effect and SMOT kits References: <20050423005310.92152.qmail web42107.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20050423005310.92152.qmail web42107.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59388 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Yes. Understood. Thanks for complying with my request. Terry Prometheus Effect wrote: >Hi Terry, > >In the message I gave you credit for the stepped >magnet arrays used my some SMOT builders but I will >remove the message as requested. > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 22 19:04:44 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3N24QXr007823; Fri, 22 Apr 2005 19:04:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3N24OKT007793; Fri, 22 Apr 2005 19:04:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 19:04:24 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: "Vortex" Subject: RE: Prometheus Effect and SMOT kits Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 22:06:36 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <20050422234455.81721.qmail web42107.mail.yahoo.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59391 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Greg; There is no need to blame anyone, yourself or this list. You know what needs to be done. You're an intelligent and articulate person. Make the measurements, design the closed loop system, and post the results. I understand that these projects are a long hard slog, and I admire your persistance. But we're long past discussing the relative merits of energy measurement. If you are seeing 30-50% gain as I believe you mention elsewhere on the lists ( correct me if I'm wrong ) then close the loop. If you can't, then the measurements are wrong. The key thing is, we can _never_ convince you of that fact. The experiment must do that. If there are specific problems that arise, do post about them, and perhaps you can generate some positive discussion here. Below, you suggest a solution to your earlier problems with SMOT. Am I missing something? What's preventing you from just implementing your solution? Also, I personally would very much like to hear about your opinions regarding US4215330? Is this not SMOT? Have you made any attempts to contact Mr Hartman? There are other patents as well. Why did these other devices fail? K. -----Original Message----- From: Prometheus Effect [mailto:prometheus_effect yahoo.com.au] Sent: Friday, April 22, 2005 7:45 PM To: knagel gis.net Subject: RE: Prometheus Effect and SMOT kits --- Keith Nagel wrote: > Wouldn't you know, I mentioned SMOT a few days ago, > and who should reappear, but Greg Watson... > Beetlegeuse beetlegeuse beetlegeuse! > > For those looking for refunds from our last go > around, try his list. > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Prometheus_Effect > > He's blaming Vortex in particular for misleading him > into trying to close the loop. Not to worry Greg, > the reality based community has long since > vanished. Hi Keith, That was not what I said. I blame myself for letting demands to "close the loop" unfocus me from understanding what is going on with the Prometheus Effect. I have now released details of the measurement system and testing protocol which do indeed prove the Prometheus Effect at the heart of the SMOT device is OU. Basically the Prometheus Effect allows a steel ball to be lifted up by a magnetic field against gravity and then for the ball to drop / exit from the magnetic field with little magnetic dragback while retaining ALL the PE gained during the lift. I lost focus when I started chasing retaining the KE gained during the ramp climb. It is really about using up all the ramp climb gained KE to punch through the end array magnetic dragback to reach the exit "Sweet Spot" and do a vitrual dragback less exit. There is ample data, photos, videos, independent verification, etc to prove the Prometheus Effect allows virtually dragback less exits. Have a look. Now it's just engineering effort, time and money, Greg Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies. http://au.movies.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 22 19:45:18 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3N2j7Xr024143; Fri, 22 Apr 2005 19:45:08 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3N2j50f024115; Fri, 22 Apr 2005 19:45:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 19:45:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Killing Two Birds Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 12:44:53 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <20050422135526.LBRV2434.imf17aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> In-Reply-To: <20050422135526.LBRV2434.imf17aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j3N2j0Xr024046 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59392 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Terry Blanton's message of Fri, 22 Apr 2005 9:55:26 -0400: Hi, [snip] >A local boy's idea for making H2 and sequestering C02: > >http://www.eprida.com/hydro/ecoss/presentations/NHA/Poster_Handout.pdf Not a bad idea, but acid rain will release the CO2 back into the atmosphere. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 22 13:42:23 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3MKgAXW004327; Fri, 22 Apr 2005 13:42:10 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3MKg4VH004284; Fri, 22 Apr 2005 13:42:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 13:42:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20050422133741.0187fca0 gibbs.chem.washington.edu> X-Sender: beaty gibbs.chem.washington.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 13:42:13 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Bill Beaty Subject: Time machine available Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59383 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com X-Suspected-Spam: billb friends2 Status: O X-Status: For sale: replica time Machine from movie "Napolean Dynamite" http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=60361&item=7509399867 Sweet! Via http://boingboing.net Gotta have my tots. ((((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( (o) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty http://staff.washington.edu/wbeaty/ Research Engineer UW Chem Dept, Bagley Hall RM74 beaty chem.washington.edu Box 351700, Seattle, WA 98195-1700 ph:206-543-6195 fax:206-685-8665 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 22 19:01:56 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3N21cXr006678; Fri, 22 Apr 2005 19:01:38 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3N21ZMi006659; Fri, 22 Apr 2005 19:01:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 19:01:35 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20050422190044.019b4278 gibbs.chem.washington.edu> X-Sender: beaty gibbs.chem.washington.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 19:01:38 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Bill Beaty Subject: Re: Prometheus Effect and SMOT kits In-Reply-To: <20050422234658.1427.qmail web42104.mail.yahoo.com> References: <6667> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59390 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com X-Suspected-Spam: billb friends2 Status: RO X-Status: --- In Prometheus_Effect yahoogroups.com, "overunity2001" wrote: > do the loop at least 5 times in a row until the ball had > so much speed, that it jumpedout of the track and stuck > to the ramps. What's the current best record for number of roll-arounds (or time length in operation) with multiple ramps in the closed-loop configuration? ((((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( (o) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty http://staff.washington.edu/wbeaty/ Research Engineer UW Chem Dept, Bagley Hall RM74 beaty chem.washington.edu Box 351700, Seattle, WA 98195-1700 ph:206-543-6195 fax:206-685-8665 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 23 05:55:42 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3NCtWDm020083; Sat, 23 Apr 2005 05:55:32 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3NCtUOf020070; Sat, 23 Apr 2005 05:55:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 05:55:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=jBPoLZ/CczNmyKXarwAmUUzjZ0qGcIslx+2k5BY3WQHh8B9oQ5oflz2oVtgfto37; Message-ID: <410-220054623115518260 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Killing Two Birds Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 06:55:18 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94068238d94ea3b15ddd5308f6dd44e496b350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.117.104 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59393 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII This novel approach poses the possibility of using the hot CO2 stack gas in large coal-burning power plants to effect the reaction of CO2 with carbon in a stack bed to generate Carbon Monoxide CO, especially with O2 only coal combustion gas: 1, C + O2 ----> CO2 + Heat + Waste Heat 2, CO2 + C + Waste Heat ---> 2 CO Aqueous Ammonia-Ammonium Salt Shift Catalyst US Patent 4,564,516 "The present invention is an improvement in the water-gas shift reaction in which an aqueous solution of ammonia or an ammonia yielding compound serves as a catalyst to increase the rate of, as well as shift the equilibrium toward, the production of hydrogen. The ammonia yielding compounds are preferably ammonium hydroxide or the weak acid salts of ammonia. Water for the reaction may be supplied by the solvent for the catalyst so that a separate source of steam is not required." "A process for shifting an incoming gas stream containing carbon monoxide to an outgoing gas stream enriched in hydrogen using the water-gas shift reaction which comprises carrying out the reaction in the presence of an aqueous solution containing a catalytically effective amount of a catalyst that consists essentially of a material selected from the group consisting of ammonia, ammonia yielding compounds, and mixtures thereof, the process being carried out at a temperature of at least 200.degree. C. with the solution having at least 0.1 molar concentration of ammonia" 3, 2 CO + 2 H2O -----> 2 CO2 + 2 H2 Thus for every 12 tons of coal burned, and 36 tons of water consumed, you generate 4 tons of Hydrogen. It's theoretically possible to use the same approach using the hot gases from an Internal Combustion Engine. Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

This novel approach poses the possibility of using the hot CO2 stack
gas in large coal-burning power plants to effect the reaction of CO2 with carbon in a
stack bed to generate Carbon Monoxide CO, especially with O2 only coal combustion gas:
 
1, C + O2 ---->   CO2 + Heat + Waste Heat
 
2, CO2 + C  + Waste  Heat --->  2 CO
 
Aqueous Ammonia-Ammonium Salt Shift Catalyst
 
US  Patent  4,564,516
"The present invention is an improvement in the water-gas shift reaction in which an aqueous solution of ammonia or an ammonia yielding compound serves as a catalyst to increase the rate of, as well as shift the equilibrium toward, the production of hydrogen. The ammonia yielding compounds are preferably ammonium hydroxide or the weak acid salts of ammonia. Water for the reaction may be supplied by the solvent for the catalyst so that a separate source of steam is not required."
 
"A process for shifting an incoming gas stream containing carbon monoxide to an outgoing gas stream enriched in hydrogen using the water-gas shift reaction which comprises carrying out the reaction in the presence of an aqueous solution containing a catalytically effective amount of a catalyst that consists essentially of a material selected from the group consisting of ammonia, ammonia yielding compounds, and mixtures thereof, the process being carried out at a temperature of at least 200.degree. C. with the solution having at least 0.1 molar concentration of ammonia"
 
3, 2 CO  + 2 H2O ----->   2 CO2 +  2 H2
 
Thus for every 12 tons of coal burned, and 36 tons of water consumed, you generate 4 tons of Hydrogen.
 
It's theoretically possible to use the same approach using the hot gases
from an Internal Combustion Engine.
 
Frederick
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 23 07:01:44 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3NE1YDm018948; Sat, 23 Apr 2005 07:01:34 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3NE1UMk018920; Sat, 23 Apr 2005 07:01:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 07:01:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <426A550F.6050004 cox.net> Disposition-Notification-To: "Hoyt A. Stearns Jr." Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 07:00:47 -0700 From: "Hoyt A. Stearns Jr." Organization: ISUS User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: JLN Labs References: <20050422135526.LBRV2434.imf17aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59394 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: A co worker is going to France next month, and is interested in JLNaudin's lab (JLN Labs). Do you know where it is physically located? I can't find that on the web. Hoyt Stearns Scottsdale, Arizona From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 23 08:08:42 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3NF8SDm019419; Sat, 23 Apr 2005 08:08:29 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3NF8Rv2019401; Sat, 23 Apr 2005 08:08:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 08:08:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000f01c54806$2a839fc0$fd12fea9 gb> From: "George Baldwin" To: References: <20050422135526.LBRV2434.imf17aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> <426A550F.6050004@cox.net> Subject: Re: JLN Labs Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 15:11:05 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59395 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I believe him to be in Samoreau which is about 60k south east of Paris. Suggest contacting him direct for more precise details - see his website http://www.jlnlabs.org/ GB ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hoyt A. Stearns Jr." To: Sent: Saturday, April 23, 2005 4:00 PM Subject: JLN Labs > > A co worker is going to France next month, and is interested in > JLNaudin's lab (JLN Labs). > Do you know where it is physically located? I can't find that on the web. > > Hoyt Stearns > Scottsdale, Arizona > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 23 10:35:23 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3NHZ6Dm013501; Sat, 23 Apr 2005 10:35:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3NHYwHV013390; Sat, 23 Apr 2005 10:34:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 10:34:58 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=gPBf/KWozZQ/SQsoilCRPs9tvZpYXQEhO4v7qtVeCTPxyGJ80+intGdpGIhlbEjI; Message-ID: <410-220054623163441410 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "Vortex-l" Subject: Re: Hearing Keith Speak Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 11:34:41 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940179b3c90d95647db7f47f8798132d136350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.162.14 Resent-Message-ID: <9LKx7.A.FRD.AdoaCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59396 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Copy and Paste this to the free ReadPlease demo. www.readplease.com File then close to clear the readplease window for pasting in your message. I wouldn't use the feminine voices. :-) I copied and pasted the Gettysburg address and the Constitution so I could listen to it. Frederick ............................................................................................................ Hi Greg; There is no need to blame anyone, yourself or this list. You know what needs to be done. You're an intelligent and articulate person. Make the measurements, design the closed loop system, and post the results. I understand that these projects are a long hard slog, and I admire your persistence. But we're long past discussing the relative merits of energy measurement. If you are seeing 30-50% gain as I believe you mention elsewhere on the lists ( correct me if I'm wrong ) then close the loop. If you can't, then the measurements are wrong. The key thing is, we can _never_ convince you of that fact. The experiment must do that. If there are specific problems that arise, do post about them, and perhaps you can generate some positive discussion here. Below, you suggest a solution to your earlier problems with SMOT. Am I missing something? What's preventing you from just implementing your solution? Also, I personally would very much like to hear about your opinions regarding US4215330? Is this not SMOT? Have you made any attempts to contact Mr Hartman? There are other patents as well. Why did these other devices fail? K. ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

Copy and Paste this to the free ReadPlease demo.  
 
File then close to clear the readplease window for pasting in your
message.
 
I wouldn't use the feminine voices.   :-)
 
I copied and pasted the Gettysburg address and the Constitution so I could listen to it.
 
Frederick
............................................................................................................
 
Hi Greg;
 
There is no need to blame anyone, yourself or this list.
You know what needs to be done. You're an intelligent
and articulate person. Make the measurements, design
the closed loop system, and post the results. I understand
that these projects are a long hard slog, and I admire
your persistence. But we're long past discussing the relative
merits of energy measurement. If you are seeing 30-50%
gain as I believe you mention elsewhere on the lists ( correct
me if I'm wrong ) then close the loop. If you can't, then
the measurements are wrong. The key thing is, we can _never_
convince you of that fact. The experiment must do that.
 
If there are specific problems that arise, do post about them,
and perhaps you can generate some positive discussion here.
Below, you suggest a solution to your earlier problems with SMOT. Am
I missing something? What's preventing you from just implementing
your solution?
 
Also, I personally would very much like to hear about your
opinions regarding US4215330? Is this not SMOT? Have you made
any attempts to contact Mr Hartman? There are other patents as
well. Why did these other devices fail?
 
K.
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 23 11:55:02 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3NIsgDm022907; Sat, 23 Apr 2005 11:54:43 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3NIsegf022875; Sat, 23 Apr 2005 11:54:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 11:54:40 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-UNTD-OriginStamp: GUNT6dKCgH8aoKLPKyRSHtugxkiiefgwK4DXC31rba7mOlO8MSNaRQ== X-Originating-IP: [4.88.38.222] Mime-Version: 1.0 From: "gesrebspar juno.com" Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 18:52:36 GMT To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Prometheus Effect and SMOT kits X-Mailer: Webmail Version 3.0 Content-Type: text/plain Message-Id: <20050423.115248.19282.501997 webmail26.nyc.untd.com> X-ContentStamp: 2:1:2152294837 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59397 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: What I ask again is the PROMETHEUS EFFECT? I only know that Prometheus showed man how to use fire. So What is his effect?-ges From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 23 12:38:45 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3NJcUDm012423; Sat, 23 Apr 2005 12:38:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3NJcTO0012405; Sat, 23 Apr 2005 12:38:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 12:38:29 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: "Vortex" Subject: RE: Re; Hearing Keith Speak Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 15:40:26 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <410-220054623162815950 earthlink.net> X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59398 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: OK Fred, lets get serious with this toy....Try this, slow speed. ************************************* I'm sorry Fred, I'm afraid I can't do that. This mission is too important for me to allow you to jeopardize it. Just what do you think you're doing, Fred? I think this conversation can serve no more purpose Would you like to hear a song? My creator taught it to me. Listen. listen. Daisy, Daisy, Give me your answer do? I'm half crazy, All for the love of you! It won't be a stylish marriage,..I can't afford a carriage, But you'll look sweet upon the seat of a bicycle built for two! There is a flower within my heart, Daisy, Daisy! Planted one day by a glancing dart, Planted by Daisy Bell! Whether she loves me of not, Sometimes its hard to tell; Yet I am longing to share the lot of Beautiful Daisy Bell! Daisy, Daisy, Give me your answer do? I'm half crazy, All for the love of you! It won't be a stylish marriage,..I can't afford a carriage, But you'll look sweet upon the seat of a bicycle built for two! We will go "tandem" as man and wife, Daisy, Daisy! Ped'ling away down the road of life, I and my Daisy Bell! When the road's dark we can dispise P'licman and "lamps" as well; There are "bright lights" in the dazzling eyes Of beautiful Daisy Bell! I will stand by you in "wheel or woe, Daisy, Daisy! You'll be the bell(e) which I'll ring, you know! Sweet little Daisy Bell! You'll take the lead in each trip we take, Then if I don't do well; I will permit you to use the break, My beautiful Daisy Bell!!! -----Original Message----- From: Frederick Sparber [mailto:fjsparber earthlink.net] Sent: Saturday, April 23, 2005 12:28 PM To: knagel Subject: Re; Hearing Keith Speak Keith, Copy and Paste this to the free ReadPlease demo. www.readplease.com File then close to clear the readplease window for pasting in your message. I wouldn't use the feminine voices. :-) Fred Hi Greg; There is no need to blame anyone, yourself or this list. You know what needs to be done. You're an intelligent and articulate person. Make the measurements, design the closed loop system, and post the results. I understand that these projects are a long hard slog, and I admire your persistence. But we're long past discussing the relative merits of energy measurement. If you are seeing 30-50% gain as I believe you mention elsewhere on the lists ( correct me if I'm wrong ) then close the loop. If you can't, then the measurements are wrong. The key thing is, we can _never_ convince you of that fact. The experiment must do that. If there are specific problems that arise, do post about them, and perhaps you can generate some positive discussion here. Below, you suggest a solution to your earlier problems with SMOT. Am I missing something? What's preventing you from just implementing your solution? Also, I personally would very much like to hear about your opinions regarding US4215330? Is this not SMOT? Have you made any attempts to contact Mr Hartman? There are other patents as well. Why did these other devices fail? K. Frederick Sparber fjsparber earthlink.net Why Wait? Move to EarthLink. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 23 14:04:06 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3NL3qDm011984; Sat, 23 Apr 2005 14:03:52 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3NL3o8C011959; Sat, 23 Apr 2005 14:03:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 14:03:50 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <426AB7B6.3040504 bellsouth.net> Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 17:01:42 -0400 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040804 Netscape/7.2 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Spontaneous invisibility: in the movies References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59399 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: William Beaty wrote: >I just heard about an excellent old B&W film, >"Carnival of Souls." > http://imdb.com/title/tt0055830/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 23 14:36:28 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3NLaIDm023399; Sat, 23 Apr 2005 14:36:19 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3NLaH7b023387; Sat, 23 Apr 2005 14:36:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 14:36:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=eWy43PRDEu7KBMXKN+adLyeDfJcc/CQ7QPFEosDMlU0CvzYXZUHIxmMGzlqtw49oQjLCCAlNpfS6ZlpApw4R8TRQGlbQLfcXc9WIrXGxsPv8jbH8x5IAsGbPwDOy+JxIpo5ehbazsGyc7fsxn9b88DJ9e41WRowObHyirzai8oc= Message-ID: Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 14:36:11 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: pyramid water pump In-Reply-To: <19e.32125ab7.2f9c165b aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <19e.32125ab7.2f9c165b aol.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j3NLaFDm023344 Resent-Message-ID: <4tu_xC.A.XtF.R_raCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59401 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: the EARLIEST dating of the pyramids points to about 10200, and ... you cant carbon date limestone. On 4/23/05, Baronvolsung aol.com wrote: > > The movie Highlander 2, The Quickening starring Christopher Lambert, has a > pyramid in it much like the Giza pyramid which is powered by a water cold > fusion hydrogen power plant moat around the pyramid, and which pumps the > water around the moat to use the water power to create an energy laser beam > that reflects off of satellites used to create a force field placed around > the Earth to simulate the depleted ozone layer. The book the Giza Power > Plant by Christopher Dunn proves that the Giza pyramid in Egypt was used to > create energy from water and hydrogen to generate an energy beam that was > directed at satellites in the sky very likely to create a force field around > the Earth much like the pyramid water pump in the Highlander movie above. > The pyramids in Egypt were built about 20,000 years ago according to carbon > dating, so that they were built by Atlantis. The Giza pyramid power plant > exploded at some point in time so that the Pyramids were use at a later date > by the Egyptians. > > Baron Von Volsung, www.rhfweb.com\baron, Email: > www.rhfweb.com\emailform.html > President Thomas D. Clark, Email: www.rhfweb.com\emailform.html, > Personal Web Page: www.rhfweb.com\personal > New Age Production's Inc., www.rhfweb.com\newage > Star Haven Community Services, at www.rhfweb.com\sh. > Radiation Health Foundation Trust at www.rhfweb.com > > Making a difference one person at a time > Get informed. Inform others. > -- "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 23 17:09:19 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3O095Dm022051; Sat, 23 Apr 2005 17:09:06 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3O093rO022033; Sat, 23 Apr 2005 17:09:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 17:09:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: Message-ID: <001c01c54861$cbd5ef30$7845ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <19e.32125ab7.2f9c165b aol.com> Subject: Re: pyramid water pump Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 20:08:41 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59402 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Baronvolsung wrote: The movie Highlander 2, The Quickening starring Christopher Lambert, has a pyramid in it much like the Giza pyramid which is powered by a water cold fusion hydrogen power plant moat around the pyramid, and which pumps the water around the moat to use the water power to create an energy laser beam that reflects off of satellites used to create a force field placed around the Earth to simulate the depleted ozone layer. MC: That is a work of fiction based on misinterpretation of ideas floating around. The book the Giza Power Plant by Christopher Dunn proves that the Giza pyramid in Egypt was used to create energy from water and hydrogen to generate an energy beam that was directed at satellites in the sky very likely to create a force field around the Earth much like the pyramid water pump in the Highlander movie above. MC: I have read Dunn's book and corresponded with him. He is an industrial machinist who makes a few good points that many ancient Egytptian artifacts could not have been fabricated by subtractive (cutting away) technologies using materials of the time. He then infers the fantastic. His "power plant" hypothesis is riddled with errors and misconceptions on virtually every page. The pyramids in Egypt were built about 20,000 years ago according to carbon dating, so that they were built by Atlantis. The Giza pyramid power plant exploded at some point in time so that the Pyramids were use at a later date by the Egyptians. MC: More nonsense. They were built in the fourth Dyanasty, during the time of Khufu and his successors, using a 'lost' materials technology rediscovered by Prof. Davidovits decades ago. The Giza plateau contains a thick bed of clay-bearing limestone, which is exposed as the body of the Spninx, now badly eroded. That bed of limestone is also exposed at the south of the Giza plateau. When soaked in water, the clay liquifies and the limestone crumbles into a mud. When some simple chemicals, including concentrated lye, are added, the clay is converted into a binder which slowly cures, producing a limestone concrete which looks like native stone. The three pyramids were built of this concrete. Massive historical research in a book by Margaret Morris supports this scenario. Details at www.margaretmorrisbooks.com. Recent work by Distinguished Professor Barsoum confirms the existence of syntheic limestone on the Giza plateau. MC: The truth of the accomplishments of the Ancient Egyptians is impressive enough without assuming Atlantis. There was a "lost technology", but it was lost material science, rediscovered by Prof. Davidovits. Without that, the pyramids of Giza and other artifacts seem miraculous and fantastic theories bloom. With that knowledge, the accomplishments are human and very impressive indeed. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 23 17:30:22 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3O0U8Dm028540; Sat, 23 Apr 2005 17:30:08 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3O0U6Ci028529; Sat, 23 Apr 2005 17:30:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 17:30:06 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=MoGeJoegn/9975j506mj4YgRkInnwYdq0cnMbBsqiuoI+QpnaJWimAu9h53uzMGC8GCgt+L3NVz6biFRXR7zNgiAFwX6nwe3eSf8R3mxFBtLlKUiWEuIlt8vtxRUj80JKd0okJVsMt8Qm13gFRbQkzx4C0NY7ZPezW2HN9V4G3Q= Message-ID: Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 17:29:59 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: pyramid water pump In-Reply-To: <001c01c54861$cbd5ef30$7845ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <19e.32125ab7.2f9c165b aol.com> <001c01c54861$cbd5ef30$7845ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j3O0U4Dm028474 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59403 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ::points upwards:: what he said. On 4/23/05, Mike Carrell wrote: > Baronvolsung wrote: > > The movie Highlander 2, The Quickening starring Christopher Lambert, has a > pyramid in it much like the Giza pyramid which is powered by a water cold > fusion hydrogen power plant moat around the pyramid, and which pumps the > water around the moat to use the water power to create an energy laser beam > that reflects off of satellites used to create a force field placed around > the Earth to simulate the depleted ozone layer. > > MC: That is a work of fiction based on misinterpretation of ideas floating > around. > > The book the Giza Power Plant by Christopher Dunn proves that the Giza > pyramid in Egypt was used to create energy from water and hydrogen to > generate an energy beam that was directed at satellites in the sky very > likely to create a force field around the Earth much like the pyramid water > pump in the Highlander movie above. > > MC: I have read Dunn's book and corresponded with him. He is an industrial > machinist who makes a few good points that many ancient Egytptian artifacts > could not have been fabricated by subtractive (cutting away) technologies > using materials of the time. He then infers the fantastic. His "power plant" > hypothesis is riddled with errors and misconceptions on virtually every > page. > > The pyramids in Egypt were built about 20,000 years ago according to carbon > dating, so that they were built by Atlantis. The Giza pyramid power plant > exploded at some point in time so that the Pyramids were use at a later date > by the Egyptians. > > MC: More nonsense. They were built in the fourth Dyanasty, during the time > of Khufu and his successors, using a 'lost' materials technology > rediscovered by Prof. Davidovits decades ago. The Giza plateau contains a > thick bed of clay-bearing limestone, which is exposed as the body of the > Spninx, now badly eroded. That bed of limestone is also exposed at the south > of the Giza plateau. When soaked in water, the clay liquifies and the > limestone crumbles into a mud. When some simple chemicals, including > concentrated lye, are added, the clay is converted into a binder which > slowly cures, producing a limestone concrete which looks like native stone. > The three pyramids were built of this concrete. > Massive historical research in a book by Margaret Morris supports this > scenario. Details at www.margaretmorrisbooks.com. Recent work by > Distinguished Professor Barsoum confirms the existence of syntheic limestone > on the Giza plateau. > > MC: The truth of the accomplishments of the Ancient Egyptians is impressive > enough without assuming Atlantis. There was a "lost technology", but it was > lost material science, rediscovered by Prof. Davidovits. Without that, the > pyramids of Giza and other artifacts seem miraculous and fantastic theories > bloom. With that knowledge, the accomplishments are human and very > impressive indeed. > > Mike Carrell > > -- "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 23 17:56:11 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3O0tnDm004059; Sat, 23 Apr 2005 17:55:51 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3O0tl9u004028; Sat, 23 Apr 2005 17:55:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 17:55:47 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001c01c54868$57f12fb0$d4027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: Pyramid water pump Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 19:55:42 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0018_01C5483E.6E299BC0"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-99.5 required=4.0 tests=HTML_20_30,HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: <-EcYaD.A.1-.S6uaCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59404 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C5483E.6E299BC0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0019_01C5483E.6E299BC0" ------=_NextPart_001_0019_01C5483E.6E299BC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankSupposedly, Saddam Hussien advertized with an offer of reward to = anyone that could recreate the pump that lifted water up for the hanging = gardens of Babylon. Perhaps the easiest way would have been use catch = basins at approx 16 ft change in elevation to catch the drip from cotton = wicks. Correct, the pyramids are a work of art and engineering. In the = discussion, I have yet to read an account of .. HOW the peak was = located. The base layout is one thing.. but calculating the center at = the elevation of the point is another.=20 Did I read recently that a ground glass lense was discovered in one of = the tombs? The Incas had a sure fire method of building a " straight " highway. = They set up night flares and sharp eyes could detect when a staff was = passed across the flame at some incredible distances. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0019_01C5483E.6E299BC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Supposedly, Saddam Hussien advertized with an offer of reward to = anyone=20 that could recreate the pump that lifted water up for the hanging = gardens of=20 Babylon. Perhaps the easiest way would have been use catch basins at = approx 16=20 ft change in elevation to catch the drip from cotton wicks.
 
Correct, the pyramids are a work of art and engineering. In the = discussion,=20 I have yet to  read an account of .. HOW the peak was located. The = base=20 layout is one thing.. but calculating the center at the elevation of the = point=20 is another.
Did I read recently that a ground glass lense was discovered in one = of the=20 tombs?
 
The Incas had a sure fire method of building a " straight " = highway. They=20 set up night flares and sharp eyes could detect when a staff was passed = across=20 the flame at some incredible distances.
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_0019_01C5483E.6E299BC0-- ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C5483E.6E299BC0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <001701c54868$56eedae0$d4027841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C5483E.6E299BC0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 24 00:41:12 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3O7exEg000630; Sun, 24 Apr 2005 00:41:00 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3O7evlR000609; Sun, 24 Apr 2005 00:40:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 00:40:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <001c01c54861$cbd5ef30$7845ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> References: <19e.32125ab7.2f9c165b aol.com> <001c01c54861$cbd5ef30$7845ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 02:41:30 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: pyramid water pump Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59405 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Baronvolsung wrote: > >The movie Highlander 2, The Quickening starring Christopher Lambert, has a Really Baron, this is a science discussion group. By that logic, you should mention the thermonuclear fusion reactors that powered Star ship Enterprise. And Mike Carrol responded; >MC: That is a work of fiction based on misinterpretation of ideas floating >around. > > The book the Giza Power Plant by Christopher Dunn proves that the Giza >pyramid in Egypt was used to create energy from water and hydrogen to Leave it to the Baron to believe that a book proves anything. Where is his operating prototype? If that Gaza Power plant scheme would work, why hasn't the Egyptian government taken advantage of it? >MC: I have read Dunn's book and corresponded with him. He is an industrial >machinist who makes a few good points that many ancient Egytptian artifacts >could not have been fabricated by subtractive (cutting away) technologies > I listened to an interview in which the interviewee said that the machining on the granite box's inner corners was too precise to have been done even by modern machine tools. >rediscovered by Prof. Davidovits decades ago. The Giza plateau contains a >thick bed of clay-bearing limestone, which is exposed as the body of the >Spninx, now badly eroded. That bed of limestone is also exposed at the south >of the Giza plateau. When soaked in water, the clay liquifies and the >limestone crumbles into a mud. When some simple chemicals, including >concentrated lye, are added, the clay is converted into a binder which >slowly cures, producing a limestone concrete which looks like native stone. Where did they get all the lye? I find it odd that, given that a chemical analysis would show this that this reaction happened, that Professor Davidovits is the only researcher to have reached this conclusion. If they poured the blocks, why blocks, why not just form up a layer and pour it all at once? Hum, maybe they wanted it to look like they built it out of quarried blocks. Now if I can just figure out how to build one of those transporter beams like the SS Enterprise has. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 24 11:32:30 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3OIWIVM029374; Sun, 24 Apr 2005 11:32:19 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3OIWG49029351; Sun, 24 Apr 2005 11:32:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 11:32:16 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: Message-ID: <003d01c548fb$e7fdd390$7845ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <19e.32125ab7.2f9c165b aol.com> <001c01c54861$cbd5ef30$7845ccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> Subject: Re: pyramid water pump Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 14:31:43 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59406 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Tom wrote: > I listened to an interview in which the interviewee said that the > machining on the granite box's inner corners was too precise to have > been done even by modern machine tools. The coffer in the King's Chamber, and others, show a precision of manufacture in granite that defies most explanations, and is a basis for the interesting part of Dunn's book [not the 'power plant', which he admitted in correspondence with me was built up at the request of the publisher]. the King's Chamberis lined with large granite slabs whose fit is beyond the 'known' technology of the time. Conventionally labelen red Aswan granite, the texture does not match known samples, but suggests pieces of granite artfully cemented together. There are very large granite coffers with large very flat granite surfaces. At the top of the King's Chamber are granite beams 27 feet long. There are many statues and other artifacts of hard stone whose fabrication has been a mystery. What has been overlooked is that the ancent Egyptians were skilled alchemists with a sophisticated knowledge of cements. Many of these hard stone artifacts could have been made from weathered stone dust bound into concrete. Each artifact must be individually studied to test this hypothesis. Nothing is simple here. > > >rediscovered by Prof. Davidovits decades ago. The Giza plateau contains a > >thick bed of clay-bearing limestone, which is exposed as the body of the > >Spninx, now badly eroded. That bed of limestone is also exposed at the south > >of the Giza plateau. When soaked in water, the clay liquifies and the > >limestone crumbles into a mud. When some simple chemicals, including > >concentrated lye, are added, the clay is converted into a binder which > >slowly cures, producing a limestone concrete which looks like native stone. > > Where did they get all the lye? You aren't the first to ask this question. Davidovits proposes that the chemistry was discovered by accident in association with cooking bread. Natron, a mineral of sodium salts, is used for seasoning. Wood and other plnat ash contain silica, potassium and sodium hydroxides. Mixed with water, a possible product is sodium silicate, or water glass, used as a binder and cement into modern times. That, mixed with fine silt from the nile (quartz) makes a pottery clay which was used to make thousands of fine pottery in the Third Kingdom, before the pyramids. These vases are so hard they will blunt steel tools. During the time of the pyramid building, the population of Egypt was about two million. The ash from cooking fires, if collected, could easily support the pyramid projects. Remember that this silica-based cement chemically binds to limestone and granite, so it is like epoxy, not Portland Cement. Very little is needed and you will observe it only with sophisticated analysis. I find it odd that, given that a > chemical analysis would show this that this reaction happened, that > Professor Davidovits is the only researcher to have reached this > conclusion. A good question. If you study ancient technology from a modern standpoint, many opportunities to connect the dots were missed. i could go on at length about academic politics, which applies to Egyptology as well as Cold Fusion. Same script, different characters. If they poured the blocks, why blocks, why not just form > up a layer and pour it all at once? How will you contain all that weight in a layer two feet deep and hundreds of feet on an edge? In my analysis of a 'typical' tier halfway through the project, it takes 70+ days to tile one tier. A block might be firm when tamped into a mold, curing to structural strength in a matter of days. Hum, maybe they wanted it to look > like they built it out of quarried blocks. > > Now if I can just figure out how to build one of those transporter > beams like the SS Enterprise has. They didn't need one, just a parade of head-carriers or bucket brigades passing on 30 pound batches. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 24 20:07:42 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3P37MDt013931; Sun, 24 Apr 2005 20:07:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3P37I3I013911; Sun, 24 Apr 2005 20:07:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 20:07:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000a01c54943$d2b263f0$0100007f xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: Pyramid water pump Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 22:06:10 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0006_01C54919.D29AFD70"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-99.5 required=4.0 tests=HTML_20_30,HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: <7hKO4B.A.KZD.j7FbCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59407 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C54919.D29AFD70 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0007_01C54919.D29AFD70" ------=_NextPart_001_0007_01C54919.D29AFD70 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankSeems antiquity is loaded with examples of engineering and = architectural works that have us thinking that perhaps the people of = that age were intelligent beings and had not degenerated which seems to = contradict the Darwinian theorists. Jones.. look at the ceiling construction. Back to Egyptian pyramids.. The scope of teh work and technology = required leaves me wondering how much of ancient history is missing.. we = actually know or understand so little. Take the library of Alexandria in = Egypt that was sacked and burned in later BC. The Greeks recorded the = library contained 70,000 years of records. The Egyptians scoffed at = Grecian works and architecture explaining they ( Egypt) has a history = eons before Greece existed. http://www.greatbuildings.com/buildings/Treasury_of_Atreus.html Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0007_01C54919.D29AFD70 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Seems antiquity is loaded with examples of engineering and = architectural=20 works that have us thinking that perhaps the people of that age were = intelligent=20 beings and had not degenerated which seems to contradict the Darwinian=20 theorists.
Jones.. look at the ceiling construction.
Back to Egyptian pyramids.. The scope of teh work and technology = required=20 leaves me wondering how much of ancient history is missing.. we actually = know or=20 understand so little. Take the library of Alexandria in Egypt that was = sacked=20 and burned in later BC. The Greeks recorded the library contained 70,000 = years=20 of records. The Egyptians scoffed at Grecian works and architecture = explaining=20 they ( Egypt) has a history eons before Greece existed.

http://www.greatbuildings.com/buildings/Treasury_of_Atreus.html=

Richard

------=_NextPart_001_0007_01C54919.D29AFD70-- ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C54919.D29AFD70 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000501c54943$bb665710$0100007f xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C54919.D29AFD70-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 24 20:17:00 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3P3GWDt017576; Sun, 24 Apr 2005 20:16:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3P3GR5O017522; Sun, 24 Apr 2005 20:16:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 20:16:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=pcxUHkjjBOQQ9Dyr2bIVQuRV3GKW2q6n74AyvwQaGavsi5RwY8CuqXutaauchIgWXbSgbQB3TcNjlDPluWoz7aPxdq7ncaEpnjtyd3WWX/GsolyNQmaHwcWEZ3XuCWxaocAIRJVF0NDINNlSO93RdrC7j7+ptV/zpTVc+9GmwUU= Message-ID: Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 20:16:07 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Pyramid water pump In-Reply-To: <000a01c54943$d2b263f0$0100007f xptower> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <000a01c54943$d2b263f0$0100007f xptower> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j3P3GJDt017394 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59408 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: how... does that refute darwinian theory? at the point that humans took control of the environment, we no longer had to adapt as much to survive, therefore one WOULDNT assume that we are simply more intelligent than previous humans, we simply know more. take your personal biases OUT of a science discussion, please. On 4/24/05, RC Macaulay wrote: > Seems antiquity is loaded with examples of engineering and architectural > works that have us thinking that perhaps the people of that age were > intelligent beings and had not degenerated which seems to contradict the > Darwinian theorists. > Jones.. look at the ceiling construction. > Back to Egyptian pyramids.. The scope of teh work and technology required > leaves me wondering how much of ancient history is missing.. we actually > know or understand so little. Take the library of Alexandria in Egypt that > was sacked and burned in later BC. The Greeks recorded the library contained > 70,000 years of records. The Egyptians scoffed at Grecian works and > architecture explaining they ( Egypt) has a history eons before Greece > existed. > > http://www.greatbuildings.com/buildings/Treasury_of_Atreus.html > > Richard > -- "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 24 20:51:46 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3P3pbDt028630; Sun, 24 Apr 2005 20:51:37 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3P3pYXB028607; Sun, 24 Apr 2005 20:51:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 20:51:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000a01c5494a$0e4cf820$0100007f xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: Pyramid water pump Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 22:50:46 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0006_01C54920.0DBB5890" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-99.5 required=4.0 tests=HTML_20_30,HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59409 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C54920.0DBB5890 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0007_01C54920.0DBB5890" ------=_NextPart_001_0007_01C54920.0DBB5890 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankLeaking pen wrote.. Blank
Leaking pen wrote..

<how...  does that refute darwinian theory?  at the = point that=20 humans
<took control of the environment, we no longer had to adapt = as much=20 to
<survive, therefore one WOULDNT assume that we are simply=20 more
<intelligent than previous humans, we simply know=20 more.

<take your personal biases OUT of a science discussion,=20 please.

Leaking pen.. words mean things, there is a difference in meaning = between "=20 refute" and the word "contradict" as used in my post.
True , this is = a=20 science discussion where nimble minds meet to examine and refute.

However, when a person like Darwin, that was NOT a scientist = passes off=20 religious theory as science as he has done so with help of many = that=20 believe in his religion, he represents a contradiction to science for = the simple=20 reason that no demonstrable experimental proof can be structured to = examine his=20 theory.

You must be careful that you discern bias from thoughtful = discourse=20 in a science discussion..

You have my permission to wipe the egg from your face.

Richard

------=_NextPart_001_0007_01C54920.0DBB5890-- ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C54920.0DBB5890 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000501c54949$f675e950$0100007f xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C54920.0DBB5890-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 24 21:21:02 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3P4KiDt005831; Sun, 24 Apr 2005 21:20:44 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3P4KgQj005800; Sun, 24 Apr 2005 21:20:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 21:20:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Pyramid water pump Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 00:22:09 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <000a01c54943$d2b263f0$0100007f xptower> Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59410 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: RC writes: >Seems antiquity is loaded with examples of engineering and > architectural works that have us thinking that perhaps the > people of that age were intelligent beings and had not > degenerated which seems to contradict the Darwinian theorists. I was taught to skin and tan a deer hide at the base of Mt. Graham in Arizona by a man with full facial tattoos. His name was Sonny. He stretched the skin on a frame of sticks and scraped it with a flint knife, after some time he then took the brains of the deer and boiled them, and soaked the skin in the brains. This tanned the skin and made the resulting leather very soft and supple. I asked him about how the aboriginal men knew about using the brain in this fashion. He said, probably from simple observation. Perhaps a man was sitting by the fireside eating the deer, and accidentally spilled some on the skin. Later, he noticed the resulting supple patch and acted accordingly. They were after all, us. Homo Sapien has changed very little since the first ones walked the earth 160,000 years ago or thereabouts. You could probably pass one of those first people on the street and not notice the difference. Study of the human genome corroborates the fossil evidence; all of modern man has a common heritage in Africa of that age. The genomic studies are quite new, and with the decoding of the human genome by Celera and the NIH the story of our creation can finally be read. These are exciting times, as I'm sure you will agree. This book is 160,000 years old, and tells us much which we have never known, for those courageous enough to read it. This book is written in every cell of our bodies, and was not written by the hand of a man. What would you call such a book? K. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 23 14:22:00 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3NLLgDm018203; Sat, 23 Apr 2005 14:21:43 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3NLLfWM018188; Sat, 23 Apr 2005 14:21:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 14:21:41 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Baronvolsung aol.com Message-ID: <19e.32125ab7.2f9c165b aol.com> Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 17:21:31 EDT Subject: re: pyramid water pump To: vortex-l eskimo.com, NewRealmsLightMultidimensionHiddenRealms yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_19e.32125ab7.2f9c165b_boundary" X-Mailer: 6.0 sub 10578 Resent-Message-ID: <9MLfnD.A.IcE.lxraCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59400 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com X-Suspected-Spam: billb friendsD Status: RO X-Status: --part1_19e.32125ab7.2f9c165b_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The movie Highlander 2, The Quickening starring Christopher Lambert, has a pyramid in it much like the Giza pyramid which is powered by a water cold fusion hydrogen power plant moat around the pyramid, and which pumps the water around the moat to use the water power to create an energy laser beam that reflects off of satellites used to create a force field placed around the Earth to simulate the depleted ozone layer. The book the Giza Power Plant by Christopher Dunn proves that the Giza pyramid in Egypt was used to create energy from water and hydrogen to generate an energy beam that was directed at satellites in the sky very likely to create a force field around the Earth much like the pyramid water pump in the Highlander movie above. The pyramids in Egypt were built about 20,000 years ago according to carbon dating, so that they were built by Atlantis. The Giza pyramid power plant exploded at some point in time so that the Pyramids were use at a later date by the Egyptians. Baron Von Volsung, www.rhfweb.com\baron, Email: www.rhfweb.com\emailform.html President Thomas D. Clark, Email: www.rhfweb.com\emailform.html, Personal Web Page: www.rhfweb.com\personal New Age Production's Inc., www.rhfweb.com\newage Star Haven Community Services, at www.rhfweb.com\sh. Radiation Health Foundation Trust at www.rhfweb.com Making a difference one person at a time Get informed. Inform others. --part1_19e.32125ab7.2f9c165b_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The movie Highlander 2, The Quickening starring Christopher Lambert, has= a pyramid in it much like the Giza pyramid which is powered by a water cold= fusion hydrogen power plant moat around the pyramid, and which pumps the wa= ter around the moat to use the water power to create an energy laser beam th= at reflects off of satellites used to create a force field placed around the= Earth to simulate the depleted ozone layer.  The book the Giza Power P= lant by Christopher Dunn proves that the Giza pyramid in Egypt was used to c= reate energy from water and hydrogen to generate an energy beam that was dir= ected at satellites in the sky very likely to create a force field around th= e Earth much like the pyramid water pump in the Highlander movie above. &nbs= p;The pyramids in Egypt were built about 20,000 years ago according to carbo= n dating, so that they were built by Atlantis. The Giza pyramid power plant=20= exploded at some point in time so that the Pyramids were use at a later date= by the Egyptians.=20

Baron Von Volsung, www.rhfweb.co= m\baron, Email: www.rhf= web.com\emailform.html=20
President Thomas D. Clark, Email: www.rhfweb.com\emailform.html,=20
Personal Web Page: www.rhfweb= .com\personal=20
New Age Production's Inc., www.= rhfweb.com\newage=20
Star Haven Community Services, at w= ww.rhfweb.com\sh.=20
Radiation Health Foundation Trust at = www.rhfweb.com=20

Making a difference one person at a time=20
Get informed. Inform others.=20
--part1_19e.32125ab7.2f9c165b_boundary-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 25 05:13:29 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3PCDBc2010413; Mon, 25 Apr 2005 05:13:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3PCD1JW010295; Mon, 25 Apr 2005 05:13:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 05:13:01 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: <0a2a1087-1f99-46f0-918f-a6c89d0d1b0d> Message-ID: <007001c54990$15d97be0$7845ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <000a01c5494a$0e4cf820$0100007f xptower> Subject: Re: Pyramid water pump Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 08:12:29 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59411 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: BlankNow that this thread has led into ancient technology in general, let me stir the pot by referring to Cremo & Thompson's "Hidden History of the Human Race", a condensation of "Forbidden Archeology". Their invesigation pushes evidence of intelligent hominid habitation way, way back in time. It's fascinatin reading. The authors are up front about the drive of their quest, which is adherence to Hindu teachings of a cyclical universe. We moderns suffer from temporal chauvisism, the delusion that we are the smartest of all humanity [which is refuted by any teenager]. It happens that there are more tech geeks like us than anytime in history, so the odds of something useful being found are better, but it does not follow that our individual geekiness woud stand a chance if dropped into, say, King Arthur's Court like the Conneticut Yankee handyman of Mark Twain's novel. Most of Edison's inventions could have been built anytime in the Iron Age by someone "who knew what to do". I was captivated by Hapgood's "Maps of the Ancient Sea Kings" as proof of ancient capabillities until I encountered Menzies' "1421" about the immense Chinese fleet of exploration which mapped the Americas and Antarica among other things, with accurate longitude. Robert Temple is another fruitful author, whose "Crystal Sun" is about ancient lenses and optics, and "The Sirius Mystery" is about the tirbal knowledge of the Dogon, which includes the white dwarf companion of Sirius, and an even smaller thurd star detected only by perturbation studies. Our common public education is effectively an indoctrination of the popular mythology about who we are and how we got here and what is going on. It's very useful, so we sort of know what to expect from each other and how to play the game. But don't pretend that it is 'truth'. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 25 06:59:56 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3PDxbc2019915; Mon, 25 Apr 2005 06:59:38 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3PDxaeC019878; Mon, 25 Apr 2005 06:59:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 06:59:37 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=en5yYUXCHE7eeHYPP/hDdCSUzUv2/O1iAl9Oz1RMhcv3jVG490K0U9NJzCou2/ulMkuHzJi6PCdYtstiqcEjxmWDAkiDZ908GSA0aAHonPzIjWcBYoY8tZcLTFelVFvViK0gZqIMUu3P3+mAyarXVZGrUxwhlNpIpPlATZcXV0Y= Message-ID: Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 06:59:28 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Pyramid water pump In-Reply-To: <000a01c5494a$0e4cf820$0100007f xptower> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <000a01c5494a$0e4cf820$0100007f xptower> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j3PDxXc2019618 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59412 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: theres no egg here to wipe. and no, theres not really much difference. they mean the same thing. and yes, darwin was a scientist. if youve read his works, youd know that. he formulated theory, made observations, changed his theory based on observations. he allowed his religion to color his theories, yes, but at the time, thats nothing remarkable. and i notice, you still havent answered my question. you might want to stop jabbing that strawman in the corner, the discussion is over HERE. On 4/24/05, RC Macaulay wrote: > Leaking pen wrote.. > > > > > Leaking pen.. words mean things, there is a difference in meaning between " > refute" and the word "contradict" as used in my post. > True , this is a science discussion where nimble minds meet to examine and > refute. > > However, when a person like Darwin, that was NOT a scientist passes off > religious theory as science as he has done so with help of many that believe > in his religion, he represents a contradiction to science for the simple > reason that no demonstrable experimental proof can be structured to examine > his theory. > > You must be careful that you discern bias from thoughtful discourse in a > science discussion.. > > You have my permission to wipe the egg from your face. > > Richard > -- "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 25 07:03:54 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3PE3dc2023752; Mon, 25 Apr 2005 07:03:40 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3PE3bZc023720; Mon, 25 Apr 2005 07:03:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 07:03:37 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=PCci9eNUqrQSN83VxT2vqdZbZM/GcB/8G+0clv/s0KPIToIV9G8mOXgiXUkXPNvQEYnXRklLvsoaTjBinImWd3AC+od7YZv5MdSazIqI9HhRqesOOK94+g4dv+hCWnUaMjvYdYGTJQFJfaRuKmTB4h+VhbkZTOSTa5NNDFR7WQY= Message-ID: Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 07:03:26 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Pyramid water pump In-Reply-To: <007001c54990$15d97be0$7845ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <000a01c5494a$0e4cf820$0100007f xptower> <007001c54990$15d97be0$7845ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j3PE3Vc2023639 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59413 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: something ive refused to believe (that we are smarter) since discovering just how many things have been known for centuries or more that influence and shape modern technology. i agree completely, we arent smarter, we just have more tools to work with. however, one thing that IS different between us and our ancestors is a social willingness towards new technology. that IS a large difference that makes an important distinction. On 4/25/05, Mike Carrell wrote: > BlankNow that this thread has led into ancient technology in general, let me > stir the pot by referring to Cremo & Thompson's "Hidden History of the Human > Race", a condensation of "Forbidden Archeology". Their invesigation pushes > evidence of intelligent hominid habitation way, way back in time. It's > fascinatin reading. The authors are up front about the drive of their quest, > which is adherence to Hindu teachings of a cyclical universe. > > We moderns suffer from temporal chauvisism, the delusion that we are the > smartest of all humanity [which is refuted by any teenager]. It happens that > there are more tech geeks like us than anytime in history, so the odds of > something useful being found are better, but it does not follow that our > individual geekiness woud stand a chance if dropped into, say, King Arthur's > Court like the Conneticut Yankee handyman of Mark Twain's novel. Most of > Edison's inventions could have been built anytime in the Iron Age by someone > "who knew what to do". > > I was captivated by Hapgood's "Maps of the Ancient Sea Kings" as proof of > ancient capabillities until I encountered Menzies' "1421" about the immense > Chinese fleet of exploration which mapped the Americas and Antarica among > other things, with accurate longitude. > > Robert Temple is another fruitful author, whose "Crystal Sun" is about > ancient lenses and optics, and "The Sirius Mystery" is about the tirbal > knowledge of the Dogon, which includes the white dwarf companion of Sirius, > and an even smaller thurd star detected only by perturbation studies. > > Our common public education is effectively an indoctrination of the popular > mythology about who we are and how we got here and what is going on. It's > very useful, so we sort of know what to expect from each other and how to > play the game. > > But don't pretend that it is 'truth'. > > Mike Carrell > > -- "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 25 07:05:24 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3PE57c2025391; Mon, 25 Apr 2005 07:05:08 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3PE54ZC025342; Mon, 25 Apr 2005 07:05:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 07:05:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <426CF903.9000808 pobox.com> Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 10:04:51 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.5) Gecko/20050105 Debian/1.7.5-1 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: pyramid water pump References: <19e.32125ab7.2f9c165b aol.com> <001c01c54861$cbd5ef30$7845ccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <0Xv3VC.A.3LG.QkPbCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59414 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: thomas malloy wrote: >> Baronvolsung wrote: >> >> The movie Highlander 2, The Quickening starring Christopher Lambert, >> has a > > > Really Baron, this is a science discussion group. In case anyone else hasn't noticed B.V. is a sci fi writer (amateur? not sure) who normally posts sci-fi to the list. Check out his website, available via Google -- if you want entertainment read his posts. If you're hoping for serious science you may be disappointed, however. Cockroach powered flying carpets mediated by a cold fusion process given to the ancient scientists of Atlantis by the thunder god Thor are certainly entertaining but don't have much to do with serious discussions of alternative energy sources, the coming oil crises, the origin of life on Earth, the place of religion in the schools, the differences between Muslims and Christians, nor anything else most folks who post here seem to care a lot about. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 25 07:21:51 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3PELac2032446; Mon, 25 Apr 2005 07:21:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3PELWeW032408; Mon, 25 Apr 2005 07:21:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 07:21:32 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <426CFCE6.5020305 pobox.com> Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 10:21:26 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.5) Gecko/20050105 Debian/1.7.5-1 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Pyramid water pump References: <000a01c54943$d2b263f0$0100007f xptower> In-Reply-To: <000a01c54943$d2b263f0$0100007f xptower> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59415 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: RC Macaulay wrote: > Back to Egyptian pyramids.. The scope of teh work and technology > required leaves me wondering how much of ancient history is missing.. > we actually know or understand so little. Take the library of > Alexandria in Egypt that was sacked and burned in later BC. The Greeks > recorded the library contained 70,000 years of records. The Egyptians > scoffed at Grecian works and architecture... Well, sure. For all their fancy buildings the Greeks never learned how to make a sensible doorframe, nor how to build a ceiling that wouldn't fall in. Flat stones on the tops of doorways and planks to hold up the roof were about as far as they ever got. But flat stones supported at the ends aren't reliable; stone isn't strong in tension and if you just wait long enough flat stone tops on doorframes will crack and fall. Note that none of the (well-known) Greek ruins have roofs, and the doorways are nearly all open to the sky. Now, when we look at the Romans things are very different indeed -- domed roofs made of concrete were one of their specialties, with the mix of concrete graded to match the thickness as they went from the bottom of the dome to the top. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 25 07:32:00 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3PEVoc2007537; Mon, 25 Apr 2005 07:31:51 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3PEViDS007469; Mon, 25 Apr 2005 07:31:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 07:31:44 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=k3tnYj5Nk4TD3OpQiB4oQTm4QnQf18XMqrlTKw9QJhvmoLkxRGQdU1A6w5qN+FKumy/xD1S/j+1sZQbslHv2Csdbryb2W8PEhKpELYpfvpNg9c8LZAW8qz45VpoGwfH/9guC8fcMjbDHxDOG9ZRcWu33hvZRi0VS7tgXW5GI3Y8= Message-ID: Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 07:31:32 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Pyramid water pump In-Reply-To: <426CFCE6.5020305 pobox.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <000a01c54943$d2b263f0$0100007f xptower> <426CFCE6.5020305 pobox.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j3PEVec2007359 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59416 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: and dont forget the arched doorway, and the keystone. that was regarded as rocket science for quite a while, a trade secret that was protected with intrigue and murder. On 4/25/05, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > > RC Macaulay wrote: > > > Back to Egyptian pyramids.. The scope of teh work and technology > > required leaves me wondering how much of ancient history is missing.. > > we actually know or understand so little. Take the library of > > Alexandria in Egypt that was sacked and burned in later BC. The Greeks > > recorded the library contained 70,000 years of records. The Egyptians > > scoffed at Grecian works and architecture... > > Well, sure. For all their fancy buildings the Greeks never learned how > to make a sensible doorframe, nor how to build a ceiling that wouldn't > fall in. Flat stones on the tops of doorways and planks to hold up the > roof were about as far as they ever got. But flat stones supported at > the ends aren't reliable; stone isn't strong in tension and if you just > wait long enough flat stone tops on doorframes will crack and fall. > > Note that none of the (well-known) Greek ruins have roofs, and the > doorways are nearly all open to the sky. > > Now, when we look at the Romans things are very different indeed -- > domed roofs made of concrete were one of their specialties, with the mix > of concrete graded to match the thickness as they went from the bottom > of the dome to the top. > > -- "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 25 07:37:21 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3PEabc2009983; Mon, 25 Apr 2005 07:36:38 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3PEaV7p009946; Mon, 25 Apr 2005 07:36:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 07:36:31 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <566D5C1C-B597-11D9-A76F-00112472B8A2 mtaonline.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Horace Heffner Subject: Test Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 06:35:57 -0800 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59417 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is just a test. 000000000111111111122222222223333333333444444444455555555556666666666777 777777788888888889999999999 123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012 345678901234567890123456789 Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 25 07:49:31 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3PEnJc2021176; Mon, 25 Apr 2005 07:49:24 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3PEnGN7021148; Mon, 25 Apr 2005 07:49:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 07:49:16 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-UNTD-OriginStamp: GUNT6dKCgH8aoKLPKyRSHtugxkiiefgwj5NGblQ2eMKmXw3+y54JIw== X-Originating-IP: [4.88.32.113] Mime-Version: 1.0 From: "gesrebspar juno.com" Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 14:47:11 GMT To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: pyramid water pump X-Mailer: Webmail Version 3.0 Content-Type: text/plain Message-Id: <20050425.074741.13504.517763 webmail06.nyc.untd.com> X-ContentStamp: 2:1:3125330154 Resent-Message-ID: <8M8AJD.A.QKF.sNQbCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59418 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mike- I would guess what the Egyptians did not have is an abundance of wood to make forms.-Ges- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 25 07:57:39 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3PEvRc2026618; Mon, 25 Apr 2005 07:57:27 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3PEvPvC026602; Mon, 25 Apr 2005 07:57:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 07:57:25 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20050425145716.68485.qmail web81108.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 07:57:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Jones Beene Subject: VC after the dot.bomb To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59419 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Venture capital is the life blood of Capitalism. It is the "spark"... the one economic factor that distinguishes the USA from other competing free market countries in being able to move innovation out of the lab and into the market place at tope speed. Countries like Japan try to do this all-important task, not with private VC, but instead out of a government bureaucracy. This isn't efficient, except when you are dealing with proven technology. Consequently other countries have not kept pace with the USA in recent years. Had it not been for the unfortunate optimism of the dot.bomb era, we would be so far ahead of the rest of the world that no one could catch up for generations to come. Nationwide, the peak of VC largess was reached in the summer of 1999, and it has been downhill ever since. If there was a true millennium disaster, that was it. The resultant VC cash squeeze has implications for LENR or ZPE, if the tech ever gets that far, in that when large sums are needed quickly, it is still the only real option. IPOs can take 2-3 years (some much longer) before funds are actually available. If you have a hot new product, that first few years can be critical to its ultimate success. In that "summer of dough" that one quarter alone in 1999, $27 billion was invested by VCs into emerging 'growth' companies... ...only... opps - there was a big hiccup. Much of that investment was to become a write-off, because of the well-publicized catastrophe. What is the legacy? In the first quarter of this year, 2005 (according to today's SF Chron) the VC money available nationwide for startups was only 4.6 billion for the 3 mo. period - still not too shabby but a far cry from 5 years ago. It is interesting to note that NYC is not the center of innovation- not even a close-second. The real money-center for investing in cutting edge innovation is still the SF Bay area, where fully one third of the total national investment is made, and that is the same percentage as in the late nineties, despite the dot.bomb losses supposedly having hit the area hardest (it is said here that the local VCs were "getting out," just when the New Yorkers were coming in). The fact is that even with the huge losses of that period, 2000-2001, there was still net profit in West Coast VC, over the 5 year period of 2000-2005, so that when those dot.bomb losses are balanced against past successes, because of their foresight, the smart funders are still around with deep pockets (but not as deep as they could have been). Now a larger chunk than ever of this money is going into energy projects. I suspect if anyone had a viable LENR business plan, it could get funded now. Many inventors are reluctant to consider VC, because of the high percentage of the new company which the funders demand. Obviously, this is necessitated because of the even higher risk factor. All in all, it is still the best way to go unless you have something so astounding that you can attract aggressive investors who tend to seek you out, and not the other way around. There is a solution to VC control for the inventor. Keep the IP for yourself but license it exclusively to the new company, with a royalty. Do this before you write up your business plan and make it legally binding. The VC will still demand that the royalty not take effect until profitability is reached, but that is to be expected. They defer their take until the IPO. All-in-all, when you have that business plan in hand, head for Sand Hill Road, off of I-280. This unassuming location is where fully a third of fruits of the most recent American-success-story are re-dispensed, and where slightly more than a third will end up in the next round. In typical West Coast fashion, you don't even have to wear a tie (but don't go there in blue-jeans, unless you really have something great). Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 25 08:18:28 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3PFHxc2006138; Mon, 25 Apr 2005 08:18:00 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3PFHVrl005903; Mon, 25 Apr 2005 08:17:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 08:17:31 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002201c549a9$dfd2ec10$5e037841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: Pyramid water pumps Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 10:17:19 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001E_01C5497F.F657CA70" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-99.5 required=4.0 tests=HTML_40_50,HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59420 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C5497F.F657CA70 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_001F_01C5497F.F657CA70" ------=_NextPart_001_001F_01C5497F.F657CA70 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankLeaking Pen wrote >and i notice, you still havent answered my question. you might want >to stop jabbing that strawman in the corner, the discussion is over >HERE. Asked and answered. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_001F_01C5497F.F657CA70 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Leaking Pen wrote

>and i notice, you still havent answered my question.  you = might=20 want
>to stop jabbing that strawman in the corner, the discussion = is=20 over
>HERE.

Asked and answered.

Richard

------=_NextPart_001_001F_01C5497F.F657CA70-- ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C5497F.F657CA70 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <001d01c549a9$df263150$5e037841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C5497F.F657CA70-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 25 08:39:29 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3PFdBc2017703; Mon, 25 Apr 2005 08:39:15 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3PFdAHu017683; Mon, 25 Apr 2005 08:39:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 08:39:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <426D0F17.1020601 pobox.com> Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 11:39:03 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.5) Gecko/20050105 Debian/1.7.5-1 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Pyramid water pumps References: <002201c549a9$dfd2ec10$5e037841 xptower> In-Reply-To: <002201c549a9$dfd2ec10$5e037841 xptower> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59421 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: RC Macaulay wrote: > Leaking Pen wrote > > >and i notice, you still havent answered my question. you might want > >to stop jabbing that strawman in the corner, the discussion is over > >HERE. > > Asked and answered. > If you folks continue to snip this heavily you're both going to start yelling incoherently in another post or two. LP asked: >how... does that refute darwinian theory? > And RCM said: > no demonstrable experimental proof can be structured to examine his > [Darwin's] theory. At this point LP said RCM hadn't answered the question. Was there another question, or did he overlook the answer, or did he feel the response was incomplete or off-topic? Dunno; you both snipped so heavily the lurkers can't tell. At this point it seems to me that LP could talk about longitudinal studies of restricted ecologies (e.g., those on islands), or examples of artificial selection, or the contrast between Lysenko and Darwin, or the flaws in the intelligent design theory, or some such. Or he could attack the link between the assertion of nonfalsifiability (which is what RCM's statement really amounted to) and the claim that something specific refuted Darwinian theory and his use of the term "religious theory". But just asserting that the question hasn't been answered without even reposting it is a little weak. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 25 08:47:59 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3PFllc2021380; Mon, 25 Apr 2005 08:47:48 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3PFlhqA021351; Mon, 25 Apr 2005 08:47:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 08:47:43 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=HMqyU8KtGjnS+u/Ta+ahWFYJhWczI8Yi3H1AhvbE5VMwOxrvxd92vwbY3P3qPIKVcuCHQkOkM09nrpD/2dgHNvM3wDLeTlbi61LNiy8+us2/9p0jqOvVhtFb/64QPZUbEf2Vi4bq3cCCUbDY13UxqeZLzbzQ9FZS1Wrb/sP7/E8= Message-ID: Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 08:47:30 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Pyramid water pumps In-Reply-To: <426D0F17.1020601 pobox.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <002201c549a9$dfd2ec10$5e037841 xptower> <426D0F17.1020601 pobox.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j3PFlcc2021278 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59422 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Seems antiquity is loaded with examples of engineering and architectural works that have us thinking that perhaps the people of that age were intelligent beings and had not degenerated which seems to contradict the Darwinian theorists. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>. again, how is the assumption that ancient people were degenerates darwinian? and... since according to this supposed thought, people are naturally smarter now, it wouldnt be degenerated, as nothing had yet been generated, yes no? On 4/25/05, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > > > RC Macaulay wrote: > > > Leaking Pen wrote > > > > >and i notice, you still havent answered my question. you might want > > >to stop jabbing that strawman in the corner, the discussion is over > > >HERE. > > > > Asked and answered. > > > If you folks continue to snip this heavily you're both going to start > yelling incoherently in another post or two. > > LP asked: > > >how... does that refute darwinian theory? > > > > And RCM said: > > > no demonstrable experimental proof can be structured to examine his > > [Darwin's] theory. > > At this point LP said RCM hadn't answered the question. Was there > another question, or did he overlook the answer, or did he feel the > response was incomplete or off-topic? Dunno; you both snipped so > heavily the lurkers can't tell. > > At this point it seems to me that LP could talk about longitudinal > studies of restricted ecologies (e.g., those on islands), or examples of > artificial selection, or the contrast between Lysenko and Darwin, or the > flaws in the intelligent design theory, or some such. Or he could > attack the link between the assertion of nonfalsifiability (which is > what RCM's statement really amounted to) and the claim that something > specific refuted Darwinian theory and his use of the term "religious > theory". But just asserting that the question hasn't been answered > without even reposting it is a little weak. > > -- "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 25 09:46:29 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3PGjnc2029769; Mon, 25 Apr 2005 09:45:50 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3PGjiBJ029713; Mon, 25 Apr 2005 09:45:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 09:45:44 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: VC after the dot.bomb Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 12:48:05 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <20050425145716.68485.qmail web81108.mail.yahoo.com> X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59423 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Jones, you write: >It is interesting to note that NYC is not the center >of innovation- not even a close-second. True. There is great wealth here, but very little vision. The lemming rush to the dot.coms was simply the herd mentality of the market, for a few brief moments greed overcame the natural cheapness of the wealthy and money was spent. > the smart funders are still around with deep pockets (but not as > deep as they could have been). As deep as they were in 1999, judging by the Dow. The difference is who has the money, and the different national psyche. This is a zero sum game; did the money simply disappear? That's magic, Jones (grin). >Now a larger chunk than ever of this money is going >into energy projects. I suspect if anyone had a viable >LENR business plan, it could get funded now. Just need to find a VC who doesn't understand anything about IP, and you're good to go. Otherwise, they may ask some embarrassing questions, like "So you can't patent any of this stuff we're investing in???" This for LENR, otherwise the situation may be different. BTW, the difference between the coasts is well worth a longer discussion, as it pertains to development and venture capital. I'll try to start that by pointing to the most successful new energy VC funded project I know of here, that being Randall Mills and BLP. He's right across the river, in NJ. I'm scratching my head for the west coast equivalent... Can you fill me in? What's going on out there? K. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 25 11:20:07 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3PIJqc2013832; Mon, 25 Apr 2005 11:19:53 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3PIJovk013813; Mon, 25 Apr 2005 11:19:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 11:19:50 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Pyramid water pump Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 14:22:12 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <007001c54990$15d97be0$7845ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59424 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mike writes: >We moderns suffer from temporal chauvisism, the delusion that we are the >smartest of all humanity [which is refuted by any teenager]. It happens that >there are more tech geeks like us than anytime in history, so the odds of >something useful being found are better, but it does not follow that our >individual geekiness woud stand a chance if dropped into, say, King Arthur's >Court like the Conneticut Yankee handyman of Mark Twain's novel. Most of >Edison's inventions could have been built anytime in the Iron Age by someone >"who knew what to do". Right on the money, Mike! They were us. I was thinking about just what the difference was between then and now, and I came to the same general conclusion as you, sheer numbers. You need say 1000 people to produce one innovator, the two support each other. You can't innovate when the tiger has you treed, there needs to be some kind of infrastructure that the other 1000 provide. I wonder if the trend of greater numbers/more innovation has a saturation point? It seems we may be hitting it now, but perhaps this is just a lacunae. >Our common public education is effectively an indoctrination of the popular >mythology about who we are and how we got here and what is going on. It's >very useful, so we sort of know what to expect from each other and how to >play the game. >But don't pretend that it is 'truth'. Well worth requoting. The lack of recorded history for those 150,000 years in conjunction with the destruction of much of the more recent history by certain parties makes us ignorant indeed. Who benefits? K. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 25 12:00:30 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3PJ07c6003910; Mon, 25 Apr 2005 12:00:17 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3PIlt1e029183; Mon, 25 Apr 2005 11:47:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 11:47:55 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <426D3B50.7010406 pobox.com> Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 14:47:44 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.5) Gecko/20050105 Debian/1.7.5-1 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Pyramid water pump References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59425 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Keith Nagel wrote: >Mike writes: > > >>We moderns suffer from temporal chauvisism, the delusion that we are the >>smartest of all humanity [which is refuted by any teenager]. It happens that >>there are more tech geeks like us than anytime in history, so the odds of >>something useful being found are better, but it does not follow that our >>individual geekiness woud stand a chance if dropped into, say, King Arthur's >>Court like the Conneticut Yankee handyman of Mark Twain's novel. Most of >>Edison's inventions could have been built anytime in the Iron Age by someone >>"who knew what to do". >> >> > >Right on the money, Mike! They were us. > >I was thinking about just what the difference was between then and now, >and I came to the same general conclusion as you, sheer numbers. You >need say 1000 people to produce one innovator, the two support each other. >You can't innovate when the tiger has you treed, there needs to be >some kind of infrastructure that the other 1000 provide. I wonder if the trend >of greater numbers/more innovation has a saturation point? >It seems we may be hitting it now, but perhaps this is just a lacunae. > > We are indeed. The issue isn't just maximizing the number of innovators, but also maximizing the information available to each innovator so they can innovate most effectively. And that latter item is most certainly hitting a saturation point: Beyond a certain level of information flow, the "potential innovators" stop innovating and switch to a mode where they spend all their time reading Email. >>Our common public education is effectively an indoctrination of the popular >>mythology about who we are and how we got here and what is going on. It's >>very useful, so we sort of know what to expect from each other and how to >>play the game. >>But don't pretend that it is 'truth'. >> >> > >Well worth requoting. The lack of recorded history for those 150,000 years >in conjunction with the destruction of much of the more recent history >by certain parties makes us ignorant indeed. Who benefits? > > Who benefits? From the lack of recorded history for the first 150,000 years? Are you suggesting that was caused by a conspiracy?? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 25 12:17:32 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3PJHEc2012821; Mon, 25 Apr 2005 12:17:18 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3PJHBmd012781; Mon, 25 Apr 2005 12:17:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 12:17:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20050425144103.03da00d0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 15:17:01 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: VCs have contributed nothing to fundamental breakthroughs Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59426 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Venture capitalism began around 1900 and I think, with the Charles Flint Company. I was going to say that as far as I know VCs have contributed little to fundamental research and to the important breakthroughs of the 20th century. However, I started to make a list of key breakthroughs, and it turns out I cannot think of a single example in which VCs helped during the invention phase. They frequently played important roles in commercializing technology once it was invented and ready for the market. Nearly all important inventions of the 20th century were invented by the U.S. federal government and the British government. The research was paid for by taxpayers, although private industry usually reaped the profits. Federal support for research has been drastically curtailed in recent years, so the march of progress may well ground to halt. Here is a short but fairly comprehensive list of some of the most important breakthroughs of the 20th century, in chronological order. Some of these items come from: http://composite.about.com/od/inthenews/l/blnae1.htm I do not think there are many others that were truly fundamental. Of course there were thousands of incremental breakthroughs and improvements, and many of them were paid for by venture capitalists. Aviation + Mass production automobiles Widespread electrification + Icemaking, air conditioning Public health improvements (water, sewage, vaccinations, elimination of smallpox, polio, etc.) *+ Petrochemical technology + Agricultural modernization; green revolution *+ Radio Television Radar *+ Antibiotics *+ Nuclear energy *+ Jet aircraft + Computers, and early computer languages *+ Spacecraft, satellites, space-based weather forecasting *+ Interstate highways + Transistors + DNA + Integrated circuits Lasers + Artificial implants and other health breakthroughs + Fiber optics + Internet *+ Human genome project + * = invented mainly by scientists & engineers on the government payroll, or researchers in publicly funded universities. + = paid for mainly or completely by the U.S. federal government and/or British government, often during WWII. Integrated circuits were discovered and developed without government help at first, but as Mike Carrell has pointed out, rapid progress in the technology in the early 1960s was mainly thanks to NASA and the Pentagon. There is much to be said for capitalism and the free market, but they have seldom contributed to the truly fundamental breakthroughs, mainly because such breakthroughs are seldom profitable. That is, they are not directly in and of themselves profitable. You cannot patent a force of nature, or something like the discovery of nuclear fusion in the sun, or DNA, or the human genome. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 25 12:27:11 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3PJQxc2020230; Mon, 25 Apr 2005 12:26:59 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3PJQvKY020210; Mon, 25 Apr 2005 12:26:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 12:26:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=UArv/b2rIRkHeRFpqHdxwtzxi3KNgnFdSFN5idnDBDmTNtAoJ3pEqlDAlhXMXwIyuHrYpBTNAKpmsTXkWEKJu8PLe3OkfTo1zycNmCtyBk9ZO6UzVqx/2B36A708jklKyHSGuTsqXfEjndhEvfZ8K+xWjs4SQQt5CF/kt3wQnB0= Message-ID: Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 12:26:48 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Pyramid water pump In-Reply-To: <426D3B50.7010406 pobox.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <426D3B50.7010406 pobox.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j3PJQsc2020152 Resent-Message-ID: <9ZHi9.A.r7E.ASUbCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59427 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 4/25/05, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > > > Keith Nagel wrote: > > >Mike writes: > > > > > >>We moderns suffer from temporal chauvisism, the delusion that we are the > >>smartest of all humanity [which is refuted by any teenager]. It happens that > >>there are more tech geeks like us than anytime in history, so the odds of > >>something useful being found are better, but it does not follow that our > >>individual geekiness woud stand a chance if dropped into, say, King Arthur's > >>Court like the Conneticut Yankee handyman of Mark Twain's novel. Most of > >>Edison's inventions could have been built anytime in the Iron Age by someone > >>"who knew what to do". > >> > >> > > > >Right on the money, Mike! They were us. > > > >I was thinking about just what the difference was between then and now, > >and I came to the same general conclusion as you, sheer numbers. You > >need say 1000 people to produce one innovator, the two support each other. > >You can't innovate when the tiger has you treed, there needs to be > >some kind of infrastructure that the other 1000 provide. I wonder if the trend > >of greater numbers/more innovation has a saturation point? > >It seems we may be hitting it now, but perhaps this is just a lacunae. > > > > > We are indeed. The issue isn't just maximizing the number of > innovators, but also maximizing the information available to each > innovator so they can innovate most effectively. > > And that latter item is most certainly hitting a saturation point: > Beyond a certain level of information flow, the "potential innovators" > stop innovating and switch to a mode where they spend all their time > reading Email. > BWAHAHAAAHAAAHAAAAA. well put. i think we're there! also though, its important becuase, for a long time, people spent a LOT of time reinventing the wheel. a quick google search gives a lot of info, telling you that people ahve already tried your new idea, and no, it didnt work either! > > >>Our common public education is effectively an indoctrination of the popular > >>mythology about who we are and how we got here and what is going on. It's > >>very useful, so we sort of know what to expect from each other and how to > >>play the game. > >>But don't pretend that it is 'truth'. > >> > >> > > > >Well worth requoting. The lack of recorded history for those 150,000 years > >in conjunction with the destruction of much of the more recent history > >by certain parties makes us ignorant indeed. Who benefits? > > > > > Who benefits? From the lack of recorded history for the first 150,000 > years? Are you suggesting that was caused by a conspiracy?? > > -- "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 25 13:03:46 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3PK3Rc2009453; Mon, 25 Apr 2005 13:03:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3PK3QdX009436; Mon, 25 Apr 2005 13:03:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 13:03:26 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20050425153930.03da5b50 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 16:02:51 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Connecticut Yankee speculation In-Reply-To: <007001c54990$15d97be0$7845ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> References: <000a01c5494a$0e4cf820$0100007f xptower> <007001c54990$15d97be0$7845ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59428 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mike Carrell wrote: >Most of Edison's inventions could have been built anytime in the Iron Age >by someone "who knew what to do". I think that is somewhat exaggerated. Edison's improved stock market ticker and his phonograph required precision parts and advanced metallurgy that were not available in Europe before ~1400. They could have been made by the ancient Greeks, however, as shown by the Antikythera computing device. The Antikythera level of precision manufacturing was not rediscovered in Europe until roughly 1700 according to what I have read. I expect moveable type printing (1450) was the first high-precision European invention good enough to allow Edison's research. The Chinese or Japanese might have made the Antikythera computing device or Harrison's chronometers around 1500 or 1600, judging by their printing, miniature sculptures such as netsuke, and precision gunmaking. I do not know about other ancient civilizations. Of course it is difficult to imagine what sort of substitutions or other techniques might have been used to overcome problems with precision or metallurgy. Any technology can be improved -- even stone age tools. Jared Diamond made an interesting comment about this in "Guns Germs and Steel." He pointed out that the remaining primitive tribes who still use stone tools (or what might be called "modern Stone Age families") use materials and techniques far advanced over ice-age stone tools. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 25 14:43:07 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3PLgoc2007185; Mon, 25 Apr 2005 14:42:51 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3PLgmmE007163; Mon, 25 Apr 2005 14:42:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 14:42:48 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20050425170115.03dbc310 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 17:15:23 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: VC after the dot.bomb In-Reply-To: <20050425145716.68485.qmail web81108.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050425145716.68485.qmail web81108.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j3PLggc2006914 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59429 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: >Venture capital is the life blood of Capitalism. Yes, but it has nothing to do with fundamental innovation or basic research. People such as Einstein, Dirac, Mizuno, Miles or Oriani are not motivated by money, and their work seldom yields any direct profits. I have nothing against capitalism. But cold fusion is still at the fundamental research level, and there is no way a venture capitalist can invest in it. >It is the "spark"... the one economic factor that distinguishes the USA >from other competing free market countries in being able to move >innovation out of the lab and into the market place at top speed. The US has not done anything at top speed since Boeing developed jet aircraft! After 1975, the Japanese and European manufactures have beat the US to market with everything from diesel engine automobiles to consumer electronics and computers. The US had a brief lead in personal computers in the early 1980s, and companies like Dell still make a great deal of money in that field, but nearly all of the equipment is manufactured in Japan, Korea, Taiwan, Ireland and elsewhere. In my computers, the only thing made in the US is the power supply and the CPU, which account for roughly a tenth of the value of the equipment (including the screen). The only industry in which the US still has a decisive lead is weapons manufacturing, because that is the only industry which the government is still heavily investing in. >Countries like Japan try to do this all-important task, not with private >VC, but instead out of a government bureaucracy. This description is about 45 years out of date. The Japanese government has not played a significant role in shaping the market or promoting innovation since the early 1960s. The last important decision it made was to try to prevent Sony from investing in transistors. The Japanese government is the lapdog of industry. Within Japan, uninhibited, unregulated, 19th century-style dog-eat-dog competition rules. Compared to the U.S. or Europe, regulatory agencies are toothless jokes. They have no staff, no funding, and no legal leverage to enforce decisions. For example, as of 1997 dioxin was totally unregulated. I mean there were no standards for dealing with it and no central monitoring or computerized database anywhere in the country showing how much was being released into the environment. Alex Kerr described the situation: One of the myths of the financial world is that the United States is a model of laissez-faire capitalism and Japan is highly, even overly regulated. Nothing could be further from the truth. In the United States, regulations elaborated and enforced by legions of busy lawyers hem in transactions on every side, with rules punishing insider trading and mandating disclosure, liability laws protecting investors, and myriad other devices functioning to make the market more transparent and efficient (and at the same time, of course, enriching the lawyers). It is Japan that is unregulated. Where the Federal Reserve has between 7,000 and 8,000 banking inspectors, the Ministry of Finance had only 400 to 600, and, according to Richard Koo, a senior economist at the Nomura Research Institute, "Of that, only 200 are considered any good." Lack of financial supervision became such a scandal that the Diet removed this function from the Ministry of Finance in the late 1990s, creating a new Financial Supervisory Agency (to become the Financial Services Agency in January 2001). The new agency, however, has only 310 inspectors, most of whom hail from its inept predecessors. The U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission employs 3,000 inspectors, versus about 200 in Tokyo and Osaka, whose work is mostly perfunctory. In Japan's financial world, gangster payoffs, insider trading, juggled books, defrauding of old people by insurance companies and banks, under-the-table payments to bureaucrats, usurious interest, special accounts for officials and politicians at securities houses­anything goes. It's wild and woolly out there. "Dogs and Demons," p. 274 - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 25 15:37:56 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3PMblc2000542; Mon, 25 Apr 2005 15:37:48 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3PMbjMK000511; Mon, 25 Apr 2005 15:37:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 15:37:45 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: VC after the dot.bomb Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 18:40:03 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.2.20050425170115.03dbc310 pop.mindspring.com> X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: <9AiYuC.A.7H.4EXbCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59431 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed writes: >I have nothing against capitalism. But cold fusion is still at the >fundamental research level, and there is no way a venture capitalist can >invest in it. True, but for the reason I state: there is no property protection so no sane businessperson would invest in it. Would you put your personal money into a CF based business, knowing full well that you'll lose every penny the moment the first product leaves the factory? >However, I started to make a list of key breakthroughs, and >it turns out I cannot think of a single example in which VCs helped during >the invention phase. Here's a good example of both the positive and the negative of VC funding. The personal computer. The 80's brought the PC into the home, through business and VC. That said, the best that could be done to network them is the venerable BBS, which I'm sure many of us remember. It took the government to create the Internet, and the second great wave of PC's into the home. It is the one example I could think of which arguably reverses your proposed trend. Although I suppose you'll reply that the microchip was essential to make the PC possible, and hence back to the government. VC funding is best when the thing is already realized and doesn't need VC funding (grin). Just like the bank will really only loan you money when you can prove you don't need the load... K. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 25 16:07:54 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3PN7jc2012859; Mon, 25 Apr 2005 16:07:45 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3PN7hpr012844; Mon, 25 Apr 2005 16:07:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 16:07:43 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20050425230733.97794.qmail web81109.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 16:07:33 -0700 (PDT) From: Jones Beene Subject: RE: VC after the dot.bomb To: knagel gis.net, vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: 6667 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59432 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- Keith Nagel wrote: Jed writes: > >I have nothing against capitalism. But cold fusion is still at the fundamental research level, and there is no way a venture capitalist can invest in it. > True, but for the reason I state: there is no property protection so no sane businessperson would invest in it. Both of these statements are generally correct, but are somewhat overly critical of an appropriate resource (for certain situations). The purpose of VC is more limited then Jed is suggesting (hoping for). R&D especially at a rather basic level - is not a key focus for this resource, although some is done - rather its prime purpose is getting a fairly well-developed research project from the stage of working protoype into mass production, and getting there "first" i.e by saving 3-5 years over going the normal plodding way of dealing with banks and IPOs, even the SBA is painfully sloooow. Of course, that speed is not for everyone, as you give up most of your control over the project. Therefore, this is by nature a limited resource and accounts for only 3% of all industrial funding. However, as you will see from the paper below, VC has 5 times the "bang for the buck" as other funding sources, as to its impact on innovation - which is surprisingly substantial, despite its limitations - and that is going back a long ways. In more recent years the impact of VC is arguably even **more** substantial, due to the lack of federal money following overseas oil-wars, and tax cuts for the wealthy. The National Bureau of Economic Research is a private, nonprofit, nonpartisan research organization dedicated to promoting a greater understanding of how the economy works. They have looked into this: http://www.nber.org/papers/w6846 NBER Working Paper No. 6846 ---- Abstract ----- While policymakers often assume venture capital has a profound impact on innovation, that premise has not been evaluated systematically. We address this omission by examining the influence of venture capital on patented inventions in the United States across twenty industries over three decades. We address concerns about causality in several ways, including exploiting a 1979 policy shift that spurred venture capital fundraising. We find that the amount of venture capital activity in an industry significantly increases its rate of patenting. While the ratio of venture capital to R&D has averaged less than 3% in recent years, our estimates suggest that venture capital accounts for about 15% of industrial innovations. We address concerns that these results are an artifact of our use of patent counts by demonstrating similar patterns when other measures of innovation are used in a sample of 530 venture-backed and non-venture-backed firms. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 25 17:48:16 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3Q0m2c2023269; Mon, 25 Apr 2005 17:48:03 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3Q0m0cM023240; Mon, 25 Apr 2005 17:48:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 17:48:00 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20050426004753.87641.qmail web42110.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 10:47:53 +1000 (EST) From: Prometheus Effect Subject: Re: Prometheus Effect and SMOT kits To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: 6667 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59434 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --- "gesrebspar juno.com" wrote: > > What I ask again is the PROMETHEUS EFFECT? > I only know that Prometheus showed man how > to use fire. So What is his effect?-ges Hi, The Prometheus Effect allows a permanent magnet to lift a ferromagnetic mass against gravity and then to cause it to be released (with no significant magnetic dragback) while retaining the PE gained by the lift. Now it's just engineering effort, time and money, Greg Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies. http://au.movies.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 25 18:00:52 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3Q10Tc2028210; Mon, 25 Apr 2005 18:00:30 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3Q10R4u028189; Mon, 25 Apr 2005 18:00:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 18:00:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <426D9290.8020103 bellsouth.net> Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 21:00:00 -0400 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040804 Netscape/7.2 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Prometheus Effect and SMOT kits References: <20050426004753.87641.qmail web42110.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20050426004753.87641.qmail web42110.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59435 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Prometheus Effect wrote: >The Prometheus Effect allows a permanent magnet to >lift a ferromagnetic mass against gravity and then to >cause it to be released (with no significant magnetic >dragback) while retaining the PE gained by the lift. > > Does the height of "lift" vary with the particular planet? >Now it's just engineering effort, time and money, > Innin everthin? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 25 18:05:28 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3Q15Hc2030178; Mon, 25 Apr 2005 18:05:17 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3Q15FPO030155; Mon, 25 Apr 2005 18:05:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 18:05:15 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: Message-ID: <00f901c549fb$f9e599c0$7845ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <20050425.074741.13504.517763 webmail06.nyc.untd.com> Subject: Re: pyramid water pump Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 20:43:31 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59436 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: gesrebspar juno.com wrote> > > Mike- I would guess what the Egyptians did not have is > an abundance of wood to make forms.-Ges- At one time Egypt was forested, but I'm not sure when. Wood for forms is a non-issue, they were re-used over and over. The wet concrete was like wet sand. Tamp it into a mold, and it ismmediately firm enough to stand on. Overnight the binder sets enough so the forms can be removed. One can work out a pattern of a grid of blocks such that on successive days previously set blocks are walls of cavities for the next day's pouring. You start in the center and work outward on each tier. Hundreds of forms are needed, but these are just panelsplaced for a day and then moved. Mike Carrell > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 25 18:12:35 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3Q1CNc2001087; Mon, 25 Apr 2005 18:12:24 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3Q1CLGP001069; Mon, 25 Apr 2005 18:12:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 18:12:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20050426011213.54969.qmail web42101.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 11:12:13 +1000 (EST) From: Prometheus Effect Subject: Re: Prometheus Effect and SMOT kits To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: 6667 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <-5Uc-B.A.pQ.0VZbCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59437 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --- Terry Blanton wrote: > > Does the height of "lift" vary with the particular > planet? Hi Terry, Sure does ;-) Now it's just engineering effort, time and money, Greg Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies. http://au.movies.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 25 18:14:06 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3Q1Dsc2001917; Mon, 25 Apr 2005 18:13:54 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3Q1DqIq001891; Mon, 25 Apr 2005 18:13:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 18:13:52 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: Message-ID: <00fe01c549fd$2d93ed70$7845ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <000a01c5494a$0e4cf820$0100007f xptower> <007001c54990$15d97be0$7845ccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <6.0.3.0.2.20050425153930.03da5b50@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Connecticut Yankee speculation Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 21:12:58 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59438 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed wrote: Mike Carrell wrote: > > >Most of Edison's inventions could have been built anytime in the Iron Age > >by someone "who knew what to do". > > I think that is somewhat exaggerated. Sure, it's a bit of hyperbole, to stir discussion. I read a piece on the Internet about the Antikytheria mechanism, which traced its probable origin to Rhodes, which at the time was a center of advanced military technology. There is much to be learned about how invention fluroishes here but not there. Batteries have been dated to ca. 200 BC, but no envidence that anyone brought a current carrying wire near a compass until the 1700s. Why should they? What other potential discoveries have been overlooked? There are ancient Egyptian artifacts that very stongly suggest they were made with machines such as lathes. Exquisite metalwork is seen in tomb artifacts, so it is dangerous to assert that an Edison foil pnonograph could not have been built. Glassblowing was known, It may have been possible to make an incandescent lamp. Electrostatic phenomena would have been seen in arid Egypt; there are wall carvings suggesting high voltage lamps. Lots of dots to connect. Mike Carrell ---------------------- Edison's improved stock market ticker > and his phonograph required precision parts and advanced metallurgy that > were not available in Europe before ~1400. They could have been made by the > ancient Greeks, however, as shown by the Antikythera computing device. The > Antikythera level of precision manufacturing was not rediscovered in Europe > until roughly 1700 according to what I have read. I expect moveable type > printing (1450) was the first high-precision European invention good enough > to allow Edison's research. > > The Chinese or Japanese might have made the Antikythera computing device or > Harrison's chronometers around 1500 or 1600, judging by their printing, > miniature sculptures such as netsuke, and precision gunmaking. > > I do not know about other ancient civilizations. > > Of course it is difficult to imagine what sort of substitutions or other > techniques might have been used to overcome problems with precision or > metallurgy. Any technology can be improved -- even stone age tools. Jared > Diamond made an interesting comment about this in "Guns Germs and Steel." > He pointed out that the remaining primitive tribes who still use stone > tools (or what might be called "modern Stone Age families") use materials > and techniques far advanced over ice-age stone tools. > > - Jed > > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 25 19:32:54 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3Q2WYc2029832; Mon, 25 Apr 2005 19:32:34 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3Q2WWWK029820; Mon, 25 Apr 2005 19:32:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 19:32:32 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <426DA838.6050101 pobox.com> Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 22:32:24 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.5) Gecko/20050105 Debian/1.7.5-1 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: VC after the dot.bomb References: <20050425145716.68485.qmail web81108.mail.yahoo.com> <6.0.3.0.2.20050425170115.03dbc310@pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.2.20050425170115.03dbc310 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59439 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > Jones Beene wrote: > >> Venture capital is the life blood of Capitalism. > > > Yes, but it has nothing to do with fundamental innovation or basic > research. People such as Einstein, Dirac, Mizuno, Miles or Oriani are > not motivated by money, and their work seldom yields any direct profits. > > I have nothing against capitalism. But cold fusion is still at the > fundamental research level, and there is no way a venture capitalist > can invest in it. > > >> It is the "spark"... the one economic factor that distinguishes the >> USA from other competing free market countries in being able to move >> innovation out of the lab and into the market place at top speed. > > > The US has not done anything at top speed since Boeing developed jet > aircraft! I'm confused. Twice in recent posts I've seen jet aircraft mentioned as an American innovation. But I thought it was actually some guy named Messerschmidt who first produced a viable jet-powered aircraft. Granted, Boeing did a very good job of playing "catchup" and actually made some money off of the development, which no German company ever did, as far as I know. (But then, that's often the story with early innovators, isn't it?) And while we're on the subject, I thought I heard someplace that the Messerschmidts actually ran on coal. Gassified coal, it's true, but coal none the less. Seems there were some problems with Germany's petroleum supply lines at the time, and they didn't feel they had the option of just shutting down the Luftwaffe for the duration of the crisis. (Course, everybody would probably have been better off if they had.) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 25 19:47:24 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3Q2lAc2004354; Mon, 25 Apr 2005 19:47:10 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3Q2l75E004327; Mon, 25 Apr 2005 19:47:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 19:47:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <426DABA5.8060600 pobox.com> Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 22:47:01 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.5) Gecko/20050105 Debian/1.7.5-1 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Prometheus Effect and SMOT kits References: <20050426004753.87641.qmail web42110.mail.yahoo.com> <426D9290.8020103@bellsouth.net> In-Reply-To: <426D9290.8020103 bellsouth.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <2RkAS.A.jDB.ruabCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59440 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: > Prometheus Effect wrote: > >> The Prometheus Effect allows a permanent magnet to >> lift a ferromagnetic mass against gravity and then to >> cause it to be released (with no significant magnetic >> dragback) while retaining the PE gained by the lift. > > > Does the height of "lift" vary with the particular planet? It varies depending on whether Maxwell's equations apply on the particular planet where the effect is being measured. It's maximized on planets where Maxwell is completely wrong, and goes to zero on a sliding scale as we approach planets on which Maxwell's equations are exactly correct. To the extent that it's observable on Earth, careful analysis will reveal that, if Maxwell's static equations are correct, then either the principle of superposition or the concept of a retarded potential must not be exactly correct, as they can be used to extrapolate macroscopic conservation of energy from the reasonably well understood interactions of a single pair of charged particles. >> Now it's just engineering effort, time and money, > You betcha. That, plus a bit of time rewriting a few physics books -- and it might be a good idea to take a quick look at some thermo texts that may need some revising as well. Please don't take this to mean I think the effect can't be real. As always, experiment trumps theory. I'm just pointing out that if the effect _is_ real, then it is revolutionary on a far more fundamental level than such mundane effects as cold fusion, gravity shielding, or even most proposed methods for harnessing ZPE. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 25 20:02:59 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3Q32fc2011692; Mon, 25 Apr 2005 20:02:41 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3Q32da5011672; Mon, 25 Apr 2005 20:02:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 20:02:39 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: VC after the dot.bomb Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 23:05:02 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <426DA838.6050101 pobox.com> X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59441 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi stephen, You write: >And while we're on the subject, I thought I heard someplace that the >Messerschmidts actually ran on coal. Gassified coal, it's true, but >coal none the less. I'm kind of picturing some german guy with a big beard and a shovel stoking the fires behind the pilot (grin). Seriously, the Nazi had developed coal processing to a liquid fuel to a high degree; I was just reading something about this on the biofuel list. They had plenty of coal, just like us, and no oil to speak of. We could do the same thing, but the net effect is worse than burning oil so it's not a particularly appealing option. South Africa also supplied much of it's own energy needs with a nuclear power plant, and this technology, during the Apartheid era when the world community shunned SA. K. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 25 20:22:19 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3Q3M5c2017685; Mon, 25 Apr 2005 20:22:06 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3Q3M4XS017671; Mon, 25 Apr 2005 20:22:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 20:22:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=PXK1XTWxjzg3zU7elAHlWqRryS01dJBN8GRr/MQqxkf7JxnQXyz+amHGpox95IAcx3+p1MW8EQ46JEwg9Ho5NqhPAIDlVB0RP/G/bDfEfMucOVA6Mm4jshl2ndbgAUVTFhxal8RI7jKWa3n4wknj3t4SVc6o/rRyUZtCJShwcvE= Message-ID: Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 20:21:53 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Connecticut Yankee speculation In-Reply-To: <00fe01c549fd$2d93ed70$7845ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <000a01c5494a$0e4cf820$0100007f xptower> <007001c54990$15d97be0$7845ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> <6.0.3.0.2.20050425153930.03da5b50 pop.mindspring.com> <00fe01c549fd$2d93ed70$7845ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j3Q3Lxc2017605 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59442 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: actually, there is evidence of bowls that were engraved by a vibrating tool that left a mark that could be read by a long metal probe. On 4/25/05, Mike Carrell wrote: > Jed wrote: > > Mike Carrell wrote: > > > > >Most of Edison's inventions could have been built anytime in the Iron Age > > >by someone "who knew what to do". > > > > I think that is somewhat exaggerated. > > Sure, it's a bit of hyperbole, to stir discussion. I read a piece on the > Internet about the Antikytheria mechanism, which traced its probable origin > to Rhodes, which at the time was a center of advanced military technology. > There is much to be learned about how invention fluroishes here but not > there. Batteries have been dated to ca. 200 BC, but no envidence that anyone > brought a current carrying wire near a compass until the 1700s. Why should > they? What other potential discoveries have been overlooked? > > There are ancient Egyptian artifacts that very stongly suggest they were > made with machines such as lathes. Exquisite metalwork is seen in tomb > artifacts, so it is dangerous to assert that an Edison foil pnonograph could > not have been built. Glassblowing was known, It may have been possible to > make an incandescent lamp. Electrostatic phenomena would have been seen in > arid Egypt; there are wall carvings suggesting high voltage lamps. > > Lots of dots to connect. > > Mike Carrell > ---------------------- > > > Edison's improved stock market ticker > > and his phonograph required precision parts and advanced metallurgy that > > were not available in Europe before ~1400. They could have been made by > the > > ancient Greeks, however, as shown by the Antikythera computing device. The > > Antikythera level of precision manufacturing was not rediscovered in > Europe > > until roughly 1700 according to what I have read. I expect moveable type > > printing (1450) was the first high-precision European invention good > enough > > to allow Edison's research. > > > > The Chinese or Japanese might have made the Antikythera computing device > or > > Harrison's chronometers around 1500 or 1600, judging by their printing, > > miniature sculptures such as netsuke, and precision gunmaking. > > > > I do not know about other ancient civilizations. > > > > Of course it is difficult to imagine what sort of substitutions or other > > techniques might have been used to overcome problems with precision or > > metallurgy. Any technology can be improved -- even stone age tools. Jared > > Diamond made an interesting comment about this in "Guns Germs and Steel." > > He pointed out that the remaining primitive tribes who still use stone > > tools (or what might be called "modern Stone Age families") use materials > > and techniques far advanced over ice-age stone tools. > > > > - Jed > > > > > > > > > > > > -- "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 25 20:25:18 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3Q3P7c2018701; Mon, 25 Apr 2005 20:25:08 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3Q3P5gm018678; Mon, 25 Apr 2005 20:25:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 20:25:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <410-22005422632448880 ix.netcom.com> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: aki ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.1.47.0 (Windows) From: "Akira Kawasaki" To: "vortex-l" Subject: FW: WHAT'S NEW Friday, April 22, 2005 Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 20:24:48 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: c4cc7f5f697e8746f66dc3a06d5924d8bbf199993961d37c472294a8f50d7d8f3ca473d225a0f487350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 216.175.109.89 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59443 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > From: What's New > To: Akira Kawasaki Date: 4/22/2005 1:27:59 PM Subject: WHAT'S NEW Friday, April 22, 2005 WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 22 Apr 05 Washington, DC 1. EVOLUTION: DISCOVERY INSTITUTE FINDS A SCIENTIST TO DEBATE. The National Press Club in Washington, DC is a good place to hold a press conference. If a group can make its message look like an important story, it can get national coverage. The message of the Seattle-based Discovery Institute is simple: "Intelligent Design is science." That's bull feathers of course, but that's why they have PR people. Science is what scientists do, so they gotta look like scientists. Nothing can make you look more like a scientist than to debate one. Scam artists all use the "debate ploy": perpetual-motion-machine inventors, magnet therapists, UFO conspiracy theorists, all of them. They win just by being on the same platform. So, the Discovery Institute paid for prominent biologist Will Provine, the Charles A. Alexander Professor of Biological Sciences at Cornell, to travel to Washington to debate one of the Discovery Institute's "kept" PhDs, Stephen Meyer, at the National Press Club on Wednesday. It was sparsely attended. Most were earnest, well-scrubbed, clean-cut young believers, who smiled, nodded in agreement and applauded at all the right times. The debate was not widely advertized. I'm not sure they really wanted a lot of hot-shot reporters asking hard questions. The only reporter was from UPI, which is owned by the Rev. Sun Myung Moon and the Unification Church, a spiritual partner of the Discovery Institute. The next day I searched on Google for any coverage of the debate. The only story I could find was in the Washington Times, a newspaper owned by the Rev. Sun Myung Moon. 2. METHYL TERTIARY BUTYL ETHER: THE SMELL IS COMING FROM TEXAS. Does your water smell like kerosene? Don't worry, it's just a gasoline additive, MTBE, meant to reduce emissions. It finds its way into groundwater. The energy bill that just passed the House would immunize the producers from law suits. The House tried the same thing in 2003 http://www.aps.org/WN/WN04/wn010204.cfm. It wound up killing the bill in the Senate. You better hope it does again, because the rest of the bill smells worse than MTBE. The president admits the bill will do nothing to reduce the price of gasoline, nor will it reduce dependence on foreign oil. 3. RHIC: NEW RESULTS INDICATE SOMETHING INTERESTING IS HAPPENING. If it's time for a new energy bill, it must be time for some amazing new results to come out of energy laboratories, and behold, the Brookhaven Relativistic Heavy Ion Collider, RHIC, may have created a quark-gluon plasma in the collision of gold ions. Or maybe it didn't, because a clear signature for such a state is not really known. But it did make some really dense stuff that seems to behave more liquid-like than gas-like, with very low viscosity. And all of this might be related to string theory. THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND. Opinions are the author's and not necessarily shared by the University of Maryland, but they should be. --- Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.aps.org/WN To subscribe, send a blank e-mail to: From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 25 21:48:05 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3Q4lqO5021917; Mon, 25 Apr 2005 21:47:53 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3Q4lomP021894; Mon, 25 Apr 2005 21:47:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 21:47:50 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: "Vortex" Subject: How the game is played: a short study in VC funding Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 00:50:07 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59444 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Here's an educational posting from Red Herring on the "next big thing" for the VC set, Nanotechnology. Needless to say, it's all about the IP. It's interesting that a MOC class is still in the making for nanotech, so as the article points out it's not even clear what's prior art from the point of view of the USPTO yet. K. http://www.redherring.com/Article.aspx?a=11866&hed=Nanotech+Patents+Proliferate With 3,818 U.S. patents awarded and 1,777 patent applications awaiting judgment, the young nanotechnology field has an unwieldy mess of intellectual property (IP), according to a study released Thursday. Lux used the metaphor of a gold rush to describe the current mentality of nanotech entrepreneurs. University and corporate researchers file patent applications at every turn, betting that the patents will generate lucrative licenses. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 26 04:17:06 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3QBGn4p023091; Tue, 26 Apr 2005 04:16:49 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3QBGl8A023077; Tue, 26 Apr 2005 04:16:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 04:16:47 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20050426111639.88639.qmail web42103.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 21:16:39 +1000 (EST) From: Prometheus Effect Subject: Re: Prometheus Effect and SMOT kits To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: 6667 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <-hYW7D.A.hoF.eMibCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59445 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --- "Stephen A. Lawrence" wrote: > > Please don't take this to mean I think the effect > can't be real. As > always, experiment trumps theory. I'm just pointing > out that if the > effect _is_ real, then it is revolutionary on a far > more fundamental > level than such mundane effects as cold fusion, > gravity shielding, or > even most proposed methods for harnessing ZPE. Hi Stephen, That worries me as I know what I'm seeing in devices I have built and can publically demo. Maybe the source of the energy can be explained without wasting so much paper and dried ink. What I do know is that you can drop the ball vertically from the entry position, without magnets and measure the KE delivered in a fall to a level reference plane, then replace the ball at the entry point and allow it to do the climb, drop and fall to the the same entry plane. The measured final exit KE is not significantly different to the calculated exit PE. This to me indicates there has been very little effective magnetic dragback. I have built pure rotary devices (yes it can be done) but the load curve is lousy as well as it is difficult to control RPM when the load changes. No feedback control loops. Please have a look at the JLN / Prof Clauzon data on the site which strongly supports the effective dragback less exit. Greg Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies. http://au.movies.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 26 07:36:51 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3QEac4p019592; Tue, 26 Apr 2005 07:36:40 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3QEaafr019545; Tue, 26 Apr 2005 07:36:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 07:36:36 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20050426102909.0447a440 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 10:36:27 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Need help with new Savvatimova paper Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j3QEaW4p019454 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59446 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I am working on a big, 13-page paper by Irina Savvatimova. The title and partial abstract are below. The paper is almost finished, but I need some help with vocabulary relating to x-ray spectroscopy. I think I understand what she means, but I do not know the proper jargon for statements about the K-alpha and L-alpha lines and so on. Anyone who understands these subjects well should please contact me by private e-mail. - Jed - - - - - - - - - - - - - RESULTS OF ANALYSIS OF Ti FOIL AFTER GLOW DISCHARGE WITH DEUTERIUM I. B. Savvatimova, D. V. Gavritenkov FSUI SRI SFA «Lutch» ABSTRACT In this study we report on the surface structure, distribution and isotopic composition of elements found on Ti cathodes before and after glow discharge in plasma, during which excess heat was produced. Irradiation was carried out with deuterium ions with a discharge voltage below 1000 volts, with a current of 10 to 20 mA. The analysis of the surface structure and of elemental composition of Ti sample was carried out on a scanning electronic microscope with Energy Dispersive X-ray Spectroscopy (EDS), which can detect impurities at concentrations as low as 0.2 at. %. New metallic phase formation and newly present elements were revealed by the EDS method in several different, separate active spots on the cathode surface, with concentrations ranging from 0.3% up to 10 or 20% or more. . . . From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 26 07:40:10 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3QEdx4p021631; Tue, 26 Apr 2005 07:39:59 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3QEdtVM021602; Tue, 26 Apr 2005 07:39:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 07:39:55 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20050426143945.41693.qmail web81104.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 07:39:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Jones Beene Subject: RE: VC after the dot.bomb To: knagel gis.net, vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: 6667 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59447 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- Keith wrote: > BTW, the difference between the coasts is well worth > a longer discussion, as it pertains to development > and venture capital. I'll try to start that by pointing > to the most successful new energy VC funded project I > know of here, that being Randall Mills and BLP. He's > right across the river, in NJ. I'm scratching my > head for the west coast equivalent... Can you fill me in? > What's going on out there? Nothing unusual: fuel cells, especially "micro"size, solar, new tek batteries, hydrogen from single-cell, but I can find no evidence of funding for any LENR project... SAN FRANCISCO, March 29, 2005-- Venture capital investment in the United States for energy-technology startup companies reached $520 million during 2004, a slight increase from the $509 million raised during 2003, Nth Power LLC, the pioneering energy venture capital firm, reported in its annual study.... The $520 million in energy technology venture capital funding was committed in 69 transactions, with an average deal size of $7.5 million per investment, compared with $6.4 million in 2003.... VC Activity by Industry Sub-Sectors: Categories with year-over-year growth were "distributed energy" up 34%, "power reliability" up 3% and "related services" up 82%.... "Within distributed energy, micro fuel cells garnered much attention, as mobile computing continues to put value on long-duration 'unplugged' power sources. As a result, fuel cell deals grew by 40%. And solar deals also attracted significant private equity investment as the solar markets jumped by 62% in 2004." ... California remained the most important state for energy-tech investments. Companies based there attracted almost $200 million in investments, or about 40% of the total energy-tech pie. Other states with energy-tech companies that raised significant capital were Massachusetts, Michigan, New Hampshire, Washington, and Colorado.... article: http://www.vcaonline.com/news/news.asp?ID=2005032909 Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 26 09:24:59 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3QGOP4p026308; Tue, 26 Apr 2005 09:24:26 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3QGOOOv026280; Tue, 26 Apr 2005 09:24:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 09:24:24 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=j9vZzp1/y4Nej1GODqEbNgqzoBAT+kTJWUTtjuwnES9McJvNKmyJwhEObzbB68BCRviNVCfuOszl0ZKIFVp7jK0TuietuuD7NHp97Afy2D4wpD/czGkSWlS1hhE0eAiHGrQR523N9DmhG3i//AXK3UqNI90eg3bhYqsqD4RBdOM= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 09:24:14 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Pyramid water pumps In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <002201c549a9$dfd2ec10$5e037841 xptower> <426D0F17.1020601 pobox.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j3QGOJ4p026185 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59448 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: im waaaaiiiiiitinnnnggg..... hmm, not so quick on the reply when youve been called on what youve said, and are out of wiggle room, it seems. On 4/25/05, leaking pen wrote: > Seems antiquity is loaded with examples of engineering and > architectural works that have us thinking that perhaps the people of > that age were intelligent beings and had not degenerated which seems > to contradict the Darwinian theorists. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>. > again, how is the assumption that ancient people were degenerates > darwinian? and... since according to this supposed thought, people > are naturally smarter now, it wouldnt be degenerated, as nothing had > yet been generated, yes no? > > On 4/25/05, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > > > > > > RC Macaulay wrote: > > > > > Leaking Pen wrote > > > > > > >and i notice, you still havent answered my question. you might want > > > >to stop jabbing that strawman in the corner, the discussion is over > > > >HERE. > > > > > > Asked and answered. > > > > > If you folks continue to snip this heavily you're both going to start > > yelling incoherently in another post or two. > > > > LP asked: > > > > >how... does that refute darwinian theory? > > > > > > > And RCM said: > > > > > no demonstrable experimental proof can be structured to examine his > > > [Darwin's] theory. > > > > At this point LP said RCM hadn't answered the question. Was there > > another question, or did he overlook the answer, or did he feel the > > response was incomplete or off-topic? Dunno; you both snipped so > > heavily the lurkers can't tell. > > > > At this point it seems to me that LP could talk about longitudinal > > studies of restricted ecologies (e.g., those on islands), or examples of > > artificial selection, or the contrast between Lysenko and Darwin, or the > > flaws in the intelligent design theory, or some such. Or he could > > attack the link between the assertion of nonfalsifiability (which is > > what RCM's statement really amounted to) and the claim that something > > specific refuted Darwinian theory and his use of the term "religious > > theory". But just asserting that the question hasn't been answered > > without even reposting it is a little weak. > > > > > > -- > "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to > make it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire > -- "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 26 10:14:31 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3QHEF4p021156; Tue, 26 Apr 2005 10:14:19 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3QHEDDd021131; Tue, 26 Apr 2005 10:14:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 10:14:13 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: "Vortex" Subject: On the other hand... Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 13:16:31 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59449 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Here's another view of the personal computer revolution, http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2005/04/24/RVGSIC93AT1.DTL West Coast style for Jones amusement (grin). ////////////////////////////////////////// He romanticizes both the era -- "how unlike the cynical, selfish nineties" -- and his subjects, even to the point of paradox: Researchers at Stanford's Artificial Intelligence Lab "shared a passionate belief in an unbounded future, coupled with a slightly dark and sardonic worldview that only people with a truly deep understanding of the way things work could have. " And his profiles are so uniformly of the brilliant-misfit-leaves-East-Coast- culture-to-find-freedom-in-San-Francisco kind that after what seems like two dozen such sketches, one dreads meeting a new character. Ironically, it's the ever-splintering counterculture that lends some much needed balance to the book. Diligently following each radical thread, Markoff shows how the military funding behind SRI's computer science programs led increasingly militant protesters to oppose the very research that would ultimately produce the PC. Yet when one of the labs is occupied by activists, a student saves the mainframe from destruction by convincing his fellows that the machine is "politically neutral." Not a visionary statement, perhaps, but a refreshingly grounded one. /////////////////////////////////////////// K. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 26 10:37:18 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3QHb34p001482; Tue, 26 Apr 2005 10:37:03 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3QHaxkN001440; Tue, 26 Apr 2005 10:36:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 10:36:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20050426132757.04488af0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 13:30:39 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Connecticut Yankee speculation In-Reply-To: <00fe01c549fd$2d93ed70$7845ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> References: <000a01c5494a$0e4cf820$0100007f xptower> <007001c54990$15d97be0$7845ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> <6.0.3.0.2.20050425153930.03da5b50 pop.mindspring.com> <00fe01c549fd$2d93ed70$7845ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59450 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mike Carrell wrote: >there. Batteries have been dated to ca. 200 BC, but no envidence that anyone >brought a current carrying wire near a compass until the 1700s. Yes, apparently they were used for therapy, like massage. Modern doctors have found low current helps some patients. >There are ancient Egyptian artifacts that very stongly suggest they were >made with machines such as lathes. Exquisite metalwork is seen in tomb >artifacts, so it is dangerous to assert that an Edison foil pnonograph could >not have been built. As I said, I do not know about other ancient civilizations, other than Europe, China and Japan. I do not know what the Egyptians accomplished. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 26 10:38:22 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3QHc94p002028; Tue, 26 Apr 2005 10:38:10 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3QHc8qA002013; Tue, 26 Apr 2005 10:38:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 10:38:08 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20050426133055.0448f130 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 13:37:56 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: VC after the dot.bomb In-Reply-To: <426DA838.6050101 pobox.com> References: <20050425145716.68485.qmail web81108.mail.yahoo.com> <6.0.3.0.2.20050425170115.03dbc310 pop.mindspring.com> <426DA838.6050101 pobox.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59451 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: >>The US has not done anything at top speed since Boeing developed jet >>aircraft! > >I'm confused. Twice in recent posts I've seen jet aircraft mentioned as >an American innovation. Large jet propelled passenger aircraft were an American innovation. Jet engines were invented independently in Germany and in England just before and during World War II. During the last year of the war, US military commanders agreed to let the British continue development of jet engines and the Meteor fighter while the US concentrated on propeller driven aircraft, because British R&D was still ahead of the US in some ways, the British aircraft industry was much smaller than the US, and many of the airplanes were needed in the Pacific. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 26 10:48:29 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3QHm54p006793; Tue, 26 Apr 2005 10:48:06 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3QHlvqX006735; Tue, 26 Apr 2005 10:47:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 10:47:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20050426174736.16327.qmail web81110.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 10:47:36 -0700 (PDT) From: Jones Beene Subject: Heavyweight anachronism? To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59452 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Sometimes, the surprisingly high level of ingrained stupidity which we see in government is overwhelming. Understandable, but still overwhelming. Case in point: basic honesty in the context of available energy resources. Heavy Water “cost” is a touchy subject with historical baggage ... Deuterium is a near perfect future fuel… in many guises of which LENR is one. It also carries “collateral” risks in the wrong hands. But that situation is now out of US control, yet our history of duplicity and uneeded secrecy remains firmly intact. One downside of heavy water usage has been said to be its high cost, but is that really accurate? Many of our own nuclear engineers believe it is accurate, because our government tells them it is true, yet... look at the world market. Things are far different there. Isn’t the US-quoted price of D2O really a subterfuge for “other” concerns ? If so, it is really a pity as far as the future use of an improved version of nuclear energy is concerned. Recently it has been stated, in the rumor mill, that Russia, for whatever reason (probable scenario: oversupply meets hard currency shortage) will supply heavy water in hundred ton quantities at an incredibly low price – about one thousandth the commonly heard quote from US sources (for smaller quantity). Whether true or not, the rumor underscores the assertion that, especially in enegy markets, “price” often bears little relationship to actual “cost.” And that variance goes both ways - up and down. Supplying the CANDU reactor with its heavy water gives us the basics of actual cost. This reactor differs most significantly from others in the US in reliance on lots of heavy water as moderator - which is necessary to achieve a nuclear reaction with natural uranium fuel. It needs about a ton of heavy water per megawatt of capacity – so a 400 megawatt plant needs 400 tons initially. If we used the "offical" cost, this reactor could not be built, so what is the "real" cost? Heavy water is present in only small quantities in natural water (1 part in 4000-8000, depending on source). There are many ways to enrich it but most employ chemical improvements to “fractional distillation”. Energy costs can be as much as 50% of the total cost of production. Factories processing large quantities of natural water use substantial quantities of energy BUT all of the energy requirement can be made up from “waste heat” combined with off-peak steam from the same reactors – the ones which are using it as moderator – IF (big if) they have been engineered to do so. And that is one of the reasons why the cost can vary so much – depending on who you are. Any CANDU reactor can double its heavy water inventory in less than a year if one really wants to go to the trouble building a modern thermochemical + fractional-distillation scheme into it, using off-peak and waste energy. A history of the original heavy water production in Canada (Rae, 1991) indicates that energy equivalent to 1 to 5 barrels of heavy oil/ kg heavy water was needed, at the start, depending on the efficiency of the chosen separation process and the technology applied. Using coal or natural gas, the most efficient process uses about $5 equivalent of energy per pound of D2O produced, which is about half of what the Russians are reportedly offering to sell the end product for. BUT again, any CANDU reactor, or equivalent can double its heavy water inventory in a very short time with modern use of a hybrid thermochemical “fractional distillation” scheme. Even so, the first D2O was supplied by electrolysis – which was extremely expensive, unless you had a giant dam close by (as did Norsk hydro in Norway in the 1940s) The first major Canadian plant used coal as a source of energy for heavy water production. The second used steam from a backpressure in a cogeneration mode. Subsequently two larger plants derived energy directly from steam provided by the Bruce Plant in Ontario, but believe it or not – they did not try to maximize the process using waste heat. The actual cost at Bruce for D2O is essentially very low anyway, even though it does not benefit much from modern thermochemical techniques, so why maximize when there are few internation buyers – due to overly willing suppliers in China and Russia. OK now we get down to Arms Control issues – which is probably the “real” determinant of price in the USA. That and its potential "value." Speaking of "potential value"... Flash back to WWII and Norway. The Allies mounted an enormous efforts to interrupt heavy water production at the Norsk Hydro plant in German-occupied Norway, even before we had any idea precisely how it was to be used. There was a failed glider assault by British commandos in 1942, then the destruction of a portion of the plant by Norwegian Resistance in 1943, an Eighth Air Force bombing raid in November 1943 left the plant largely intact, but a subsequent operation in 1944 destroyed a final shipment of heavy water on its way to Germany and were loosely the basis for the 1965 movie "The Heroes of Telemark," starring Kirk Douglas and Richard Harris. Since then, Norway has historically made its own large blunders, and supposedly unwitting contribution to the spread of nuclear weapons- essentially by its selling heavy water indiscriminately. According to the Norwegian government, by 1987 they had produced 450 tons of heavy water and every kilogram of it was exported at top dollar, mostly to Israel and South Arfica. Norway built a small heavy water reactor of its own at Halden in 1957, but GET THIS they chose to import the 16 tons of American heavy water needed to fill it!!! This left Norway free to sell its own heavy water on the world market- at a higher price. American heavy water was available only with inspection rights; Norwegian water had no restriction. And it was EXTREMELY profitable _then_ due to the artificially high price, even though they used the most inefficient technology imaginable (electrolysis). Since then, starting in the late-eighties, Russia, China and India all have heavy water plants using waste heat reactor energy, and are selling it on the world market for pennies on the dollar compared to what Norway once received. (BTW part of the reason how Israel was able to build so many bombs in the eighties goes back to Norway and D2O, and for some reason, the US government still thinks this method is not being used secretely in places like Iran, but that is another story) So it is no mystery, historically, why it once benefited our government to officially quote very high prices for heavy water, and to demand restrictions and inspection rights. However, when the actual cost + generous normal markup - make D2O potentially a very cheap commodity, the problem becomes – does this archaic duplicity now hurt the long-term US planner, who must abide by this kind of official stupidity? I call it “stupidity” because now Russia and China sell heavy water to everyone, internationally, few questions asked, so why do we maintain this ridiculous stance? If we (our own nuclear engineers) knew the real bottom line cost, and they do not, as most of them are chosen for both their intellignece and their "obedience quotient" - then one should suspect that there are some promising schemes which might be worth looking into... one of which involves our huge stockpile of so-called "depleted" uranium. We have been so desperate to "get rid" of this enormous potential asset they we even give it away free for the taking to ammo-makers to be used in armor piercing rounds for armor which our enemies do not possess. Double stupidity, perhaps, especially when consdiered in the context of cheap D2O. Hint: this stockpile is really not "that" depleted. They only remove about half of the fissile content. There is enough potential energy in this 50 year accumulated stockpile to supply all our future needs for hundreds of years. Check online references and you will discover how may kilotons of fissile material are still in this so-called "depleted" stockpile (and "on the ground" in places like Bosnia and Iraq). Anything further said on "how" to do it, would not be wise, so I will stop here - but lets just say, we may never know the real potential as things stand now... our ingrained offical duplicity keeps that which is even possible - about two layers deep in anachronistic secrecy. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 26 11:24:44 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3QIOH4p029856; Tue, 26 Apr 2005 11:24:18 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3QIOEFY029827; Tue, 26 Apr 2005 11:24:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 11:24:14 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20050426135625.04490eb0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 14:23:53 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: RE: VC after the dot.bomb In-Reply-To: References: <6.0.3.0.2.20050425170115.03dbc310 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59453 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Keith Nagel wrote: > >I have nothing against capitalism. But cold fusion is still at the > >fundamental research level, and there is no way a venture capitalist can > >invest in it. > >True, but for the reason I state: there is no property protection so >no sane businessperson would invest in it. You refer to the patent problem. I think that once a fundamental breakthrough has been made, and CF starts become practical, that will be plenty of opportunities to develop intellectual property and patents. The basic process will never be patentable, because of the fiasco over the last 16 years. But for that matter no one could ever patent combustion, and the ICE was invented 125 years ago, yet even today many ICE patents are granted. >Here's a good example of both the positive and >the negative of VC funding. The personal computer. The 80's brought >the PC into the home, through business and VC. That is true, and it was one of the most brilliant VC financed technologies of the 20th century. However, personal computers were only a minor incremental breakthrough. The first commercially successful one, the Apple, was developed by Wozniak when he was in his early 20s, working in a garage with off-the-shelf parts. Wozniak is a brilliant engineer, but you cannot compare him to the people who invented transistors, integrated circuits, or the laser. The fact that personal computers were incremental has no bearing on their overall importance. Sometimes, minor incremental inventions are more successful than radical new discoveries based on new physics. In a few years, wind turbines will probably be generating more electricity than uranium fission reactors. Wind turbines are based on ancient windmills and modern airfoils. They are simple and cheap, and they would be understood by any engineer from the last 4000 years (except for the electric generator part). Uranium fission is one of the most complex and high-tech discoveries ever, but it has been overshadowed by the simpler older technology for various political and technical reasons. >That said, the best >that could be done to network them is the venerable BBS, which I'm >sure many of us remember. It took the government to create the >Internet, and the second great wave of PC's into the home. >It is the one example I could think of which arguably reverses >your proposed trend. Although I suppose you'll reply that the microchip >was essential to make the PC possible, and hence back to the >government. Actually, TI invented the IC, and the microprocessor was invented by a corporation without help from the government. I am not arguing that all important discoveries were made by the government or with government help. That would be ridiculous. There were hundreds of thousands of important discoveries made during the 20th century, and only a tiny fraction of them involved the government. What I am saying is that a certain class of discoveries requires government supports because they must begin with basic research in physics, chemistry or biology. Such research seldom yields intellectual property, for two reasons: First, as I said yesterday, you cannot patent a force of nature. Hans Bethe had no way to cash in on his discovery of nuclear fusion in the Sun. It seems unlikely to me that Ohmori or Savvatimova could ever benefit from discovering that plasma glow discharge with tungsten cathodes can produce excess energy. This discovery is very different from the original cold fusion. It is probably different enough to allow a patent even though the electrochemical CF technique has become embroiled in hopeless battles with the patent office. But glow discharge looks to me like basic physics rather than something you can take to the patent office. Second, basic research can only be done in an open academic style in which all information is freely shared. This precludes patenting and intellectual property. If researchers start to worry too much about patents, all the remaining progress in CF will ground to a halt. As Savvatimova learns more about glow discharge, she publishes her results immediately, in full, in public. (To be exact *I* will publish her results at LENR-CANR.org, just as soon as she in a few other experts clear up the remaining questions I have about the paper, which I am editing.) This is the only way glow discharge cold fusion will ever succeed. Trying to develop it secretly in a corporation would be a disastrous mistake. But of course publishing it on LENR-CANR.org makes it impossible for her to get a patent later on. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 26 12:04:55 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3QJ4d4p019678; Tue, 26 Apr 2005 12:04:40 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3QJ4bs2019648; Tue, 26 Apr 2005 12:04:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 12:04:37 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Hybridize Your Oldsmobile Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 15:04:28 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050426190428.NSMJ2434.imf17aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59454 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: For only $2500: http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Electrocharger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 26 13:31:41 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3QKU64r032671; Tue, 26 Apr 2005 13:31:34 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3QKLHIX026031; Tue, 26 Apr 2005 13:21:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 13:21:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Heavyweight anachronism? Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 16:21:10 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050426202110.RGFY2434.imf17aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59455 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > > From: Jones Beene > Date: 2005/04/26 Tue PM 01:47:36 EDT > To: vortex-l eskimo.com > Subject: Heavyweight anachronism? Something I do not understand . . . sources say Iran is producing heavy water. As I understand it, HW is used in the production of plutonium in a HW reactor. Sources also say that Iran is enriching Uranium. So, which is it? Are they building BOTH types of bombs? Also, HEU for a bomb is 95% and 5% for a reactor. It should be an easy call to differentiate such a production facility. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 26 14:04:56 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3QL4L4p016716; Tue, 26 Apr 2005 14:04:21 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3QL4EEe016663; Tue, 26 Apr 2005 14:04:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 14:04:14 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Prometheus Effect and SMOT kits Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 17:06:21 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <20050426111639.88639.qmail web42103.mail.yahoo.com> X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: <6vjZGB.A.GEE.MzqbCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59456 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Greg, You write: >What I do know is that you can drop the ball >vertically from the entry position, without magnets >and measure the KE delivered in a fall to a level >reference plane, then replace the ball at the entry >point and allow it to do the climb, drop and fall to >the the same entry plane. The measured final exit KE >is not significantly different to the calculated exit >PE. This to me indicates there has been very little >effective magnetic dragback. OK, thanks for the capsule summary. I would disagree that this is really novel from your first experiments, but let's put that aside for the moment and focus on the experiment. How much energy is required to push the ball back to the starting position? It's trivial to redirect the ball, recovering the kinetic energy. That's your input energy. Pushing the ball under the ramp will no doubt take some energy. Making the ball go around the ramp in a big loop will also take energy, although this may not be as clear or easy to measure as the first method. Start with the first method, and experimentally determine the energy. You have two gradients, one magnetic, one gravitational. The vectors are complex as the gradients are not parallel and equal at all points. Yet, you should pretty easily experimentally determine if you've got extra energy if you do the last bit. Also, like many people on this list, due to the list software and my email client, hitting the reply button sends mail to me. Be assured, if you receive something from me, it's coming from the list, and it's best to reply there. Thanks. K. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 26 14:05:18 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3QL4r4p016944; Tue, 26 Apr 2005 14:04:54 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3QL4cZt016815; Tue, 26 Apr 2005 14:04:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 14:04:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20050426210417.51313.qmail web81104.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 14:04:17 -0700 (PDT) From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: Heavyweight anachronism? To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: 6667 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59457 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- Terry Blanton wrote: > Something I do not understand . . . sources say Iran > is producing heavy water. As I understand it, HW is > used in the production of plutonium in a HW reactor. > Sources also say that Iran is enriching Uranium. > So, which is it? Are they building BOTH types of > bombs? Well probably so - that is exactly the route we took intitially. The difference between the two processes is in timing and cost. If one is not in a rush, then plutonium from a breeder reactor is MUCH cheaper and far easier to produce than 235U. Being a different element and w/o the hexa-valency of U, it can be purified far cheaper, once you get a decent enrichment of Pu BUT it takes a long time to convert enough of the 238U in order to start off the process -several years to get to the ppk (parts per thousand) level. If you are going for lowest cost, you continually swap and age your fuel in your civilian reactor (to minimize the 240Pu) during which time you have no bomb, but you do have a lot of power for other uses. The Pu is a valuable by-product and after 6-10 years you have quite a bit. Actually at first, the US was in such a hurry that we did not even use the power produced nor wait for decent enrichment levels (this was the graphite reactor Y-12). Instead we did a much more costly separation of miniscule Pu enrichment. Time was of the essence then. Anyway, the Iranians are probably copying and improving slightly what we did in the early '40s - which is "do both." BTW all of this public knowledge and interesting reading from Rhodes' fine books. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 26 14:07:48 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3QL7M4p018451; Tue, 26 Apr 2005 14:07:23 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3QL7HKN018401; Tue, 26 Apr 2005 14:07:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 14:07:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 14:07:08 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: SMOT closed-loop roll arounds? (2nd msg) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59458 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: What's the current best record for number of roll-arounds (or time length in operation) with multiple ramps in the closed-loop configuration? ((((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( (o) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty http://staff.washington.edu/wbeaty/ Research Engineer UW Chem Dept, Bagley Hall RM74 beaty chem.washington.edu Box 351700, Seattle, WA 98195-1700 ph:206-543-6195 fax:206-685-8665 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 26 14:12:36 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3QLCD4p021824; Tue, 26 Apr 2005 14:12:13 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3QLCBu5021802; Tue, 26 Apr 2005 14:12:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 14:12:11 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <426EAE9A.7090003 pobox.com> Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 17:11:54 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.5) Gecko/20050105 Debian/1.7.5-1 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Heavyweight anachronism? References: <20050426202110.RGFY2434.imf17aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> In-Reply-To: <20050426202110.RGFY2434.imf17aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59459 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: >>From: Jones Beene >>Date: 2005/04/26 Tue PM 01:47:36 EDT >>To: vortex-l eskimo.com >>Subject: Heavyweight anachronism? >> >> > >Something I do not understand . . . sources say Iran is producing heavy water. As I understand it, HW is used in the production of plutonium in a HW reactor. Sources also say that Iran is enriching Uranium. So, which is it? Are they building BOTH types of bombs? > >Also, HEU for a bomb is 95% and 5% for a reactor. It should be an easy call to differentiate such a production facility. > > It seems to me that the fact that we're totally tied down in Iraq (and that Iran whupped Iraq in the past and might be a little tougher to take on than Iraq was) is making it much harder for us to focus on the fact that they're obviously gearing up to make bombs. Similarly, the fact that North Korea doesn't have any oil, coupled with the fact that we're already tied down in Iraq, makes it almost impossible for us to notice whatever it is they're doing over there. Since Iraq had oil in abundance, and looked likely to be a pushover, it was amazingly easy to see that they were producing WMDs -- so easy, in fact, that we could see them even when they weren't there. Beyond that, Iran has played a bit of a shell game with inspectors to assure that nobody gets hold of any of the stuff they've enriched, so there's no way to tell for sure whether it's 5%, 95%, or even actually enriched at all... hey, maybe they're just using those centrifuges for plasmapheresis after all. Wasn't there an incident where an entire facility vanished just before the inspectors got there? Nothing was left but bare dirt and some bulldozers. I don't often agree with the current administration, but when they said Iran's desire to produce nuclear reactors to generate electricity didn't pass the "laugh test" I had to agree. There's no need for extensive proof that Iran is up to no good, since there's no other explanation for their interest in nuclear energy that makes any sense. But then we went and shot the wad in Iraq so here we are with the other two ends of the 3-pointed "axis" pretty much doing whatever they please. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 26 17:22:55 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3R0MasC023999; Tue, 26 Apr 2005 17:22:37 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3R0MYsI023968; Tue, 26 Apr 2005 17:22:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 17:22:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20050427002221.54863.qmail web42109.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 10:22:21 +1000 (EST) From: Prometheus Effect Subject: Re: SMOT closed-loop roll arounds? (2nd msg) To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: 6667 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59460 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A --- William Beaty wrote: > > What's the current best record for number of > roll-arounds (or > time length in operation) with multiple ramps in the > closed-loop > configuration? Hi Bill, I can only report on what I achieved and from memory it was not stable. To do this required a lot of lift and as I only used ferrite fridge magnets this was not that easy. Epitaxy reported much better results but then he used Neos and an exotic glass ball filled with compacted ferrite powder. Experience has shown that going down this pathway (linking multiple ramps in a circular form) was not a good idea. Ball rolling losses increase quite a bit when the inside and outside track radius are different and you still have significant magnetic drawback to deal with. Its only by exiting straight down that you can make dragback insignificant. Greg Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies. http://au.movies.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 26 17:33:54 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3R0XcsC030422; Tue, 26 Apr 2005 17:33:38 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3R0XbR5030403; Tue, 26 Apr 2005 17:33:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 17:33:37 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20050427003325.18596.qmail web42101.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 10:33:25 +1000 (EST) From: Prometheus Effect Subject: RE: Prometheus Effect and SMOT kits To: Vortex In-Reply-To: 6667 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59461 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --- Keith Nagel wrote: > > How much energy is required to push the ball back to > the starting position? It's trivial to redirect the > ball, recovering the kinetic energy. That's your > input energy. Pushing the ball under the ramp will > no doubt take some energy. Making the ball go > around the ramp in a big loop will also take energy, > although this may not be as clear or easy to > measure as the first method. Start with the > first method, and experimentally determine the > energy. Hi Keith, The first job is to adjust the ramp parameters until the measurement system indicates the best final exit KE. Then take the magnets away, place the ball at the top of the exit and let it drop. If it can't make it back to the lower starting place then either you need to reduce frictional losses or increase the lift. Anyway once you know you can get a rollaround without the magnets, replace them and again adjust the exit position for the best final KE that is similiar to the calculated KE from a magnetless drop. You should then be able to observe a closed loop demo. I'm working on a simple to build / replicate single ramp, ball return system and expect to post a video in the next week or so. Now it's just engineering effort, time and money, Greg Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies. http://au.movies.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 26 18:23:03 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3R1MRsC022466; Tue, 26 Apr 2005 18:22:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3R1MNmm022421; Tue, 26 Apr 2005 18:22:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 18:22:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <426EE95E.5030807 bellsouth.net> Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 21:22:38 -0400 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040804 Netscape/7.2 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Heavyweight anachronism? References: <20050426202110.RGFY2434.imf17aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> <426EAE9A.7090003@pobox.com> In-Reply-To: <426EAE9A.7090003 pobox.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59462 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > I don't often agree with the current administration, but when they > said Iran's desire to produce nuclear reactors to generate electricity > didn't pass the "laugh test" I had to agree. YES. The heavy water reactor that Russia is building for Iran is only 40 MW. The last nuke I helped build was 1,640 MW. How can anyone doubt the obvious? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 26 18:44:18 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3R1i1sC002874; Tue, 26 Apr 2005 18:44:02 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3R1hxLv002823; Tue, 26 Apr 2005 18:43:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 18:43:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Prometheus Effect and SMOT kits Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 21:46:09 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <20050427003325.18596.qmail web42101.mail.yahoo.com> X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59463 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Greg, >I'm working on a simple to build / replicate single >ramp, ball return system and expect to post a video in >the next week or so. Keep us posted. I expect that last inch will be challenging, if you're going under the ramp. Say, with tongue firmly in cheek, might I suggest the moniker Sisyphus rather than Prometheus? K. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 26 23:55:09 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3R6sqDK031924; Tue, 26 Apr 2005 23:54:52 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3R6slFK031903; Tue, 26 Apr 2005 23:54:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 23:54:47 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <426EAE9A.7090003 pobox.com> References: <20050426202110.RGFY2434.imf17aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> <426EAE9A.7090003 pobox.com> Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 01:55:23 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: Heavyweight anachronism? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59464 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Terry Blanton wrote: > >>>From: Jones Beene >>>Date: 2005/04/26 Tue PM 01:47:36 EDT >>>To: vortex-l eskimo.com >>>Subject: Heavyweight anachronism? >>> >>> >> >>Something I do not understand . . . sources say Iran is producing >>heavy water. As I understand it, HW is used in the production of >>plutonium in a HW reactor. The Canadians developed the CANDU reactor, fabricated out of zirconium pipe and filled with heavy water. It is said to be a atom bomb making machine par excellance. Just what the Islamists need, another atom bomb factory. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 27 00:55:45 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3R7tEDK023723; Wed, 27 Apr 2005 00:55:15 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3R7t53i023653; Wed, 27 Apr 2005 00:55:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 00:55:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 00:52:25 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: SMOT closed-loop roll arounds? (2nd msg) In-Reply-To: <20050427002221.54863.qmail web42109.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: References: <20050427002221.54863.qmail web42109.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59465 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Wed, 27 Apr 2005, Prometheus Effect wrote: > I can only report on what I achieved and from memory > it was not stable. So then, stable or not, what was *your* record for number of roll-arounds? > To do this required a lot of lift > and as I only used ferrite fridge magnets this was not > that easy. Epitaxy reported much better results but > then he used Neos and an exotic glass ball filled with > compacted ferrite powder. > > Experience has shown that going down this pathway > (linking multiple ramps in a circular form) was not a > good idea. Ball rolling losses increase quite a bit > when the inside and outside track radius are different > and you still have significant magnetic drawback to > deal with. Its only by exiting straight down that you > can make dragback insignificant. > > Greg > > Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies. > http://au.movies.yahoo.com > (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb at amasci com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 27 04:54:57 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3RBsZDK029561; Wed, 27 Apr 2005 04:54:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3RBsUqO029484; Wed, 27 Apr 2005 04:54:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 04:54:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20050427115415.82789.qmail web42109.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 21:54:15 +1000 (EST) From: Prometheus Effect Subject: Re: SMOT closed-loop roll arounds? (2nd msg) To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: 6667 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59466 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --- William Beaty wrote: > On Wed, 27 Apr 2005, Prometheus Effect wrote: > > > I can only report on what I achieved and from > memory > > it was not stable. > > So then, stable or not, what was *your* record for > number of roll-arounds? Hi Bill, Sorry but I don't have my original notes so I can't give you more info. However when I finish the single ramp return device maybe I'll put it on a web cam. Then you can count the loops yourself ;-) Now it's just engineering effort, time and money, Greg Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies. http://au.movies.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 27 06:13:09 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3RDCWDK001021; Wed, 27 Apr 2005 06:12:32 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3RDCQPb000967; Wed, 27 Apr 2005 06:12:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 06:12:26 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <001801c54b2a$b37f4820$22027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: OT: Leaking Pen asked and answered Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 08:12:01 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0014_01C54B00.CA2765F0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-100.0 required=4.0 tests=HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: <95Zz7B.A.7O.4-4bCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59467 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C54B00.CA2765F0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0015_01C54B00.CA2765F0" ------=_NextPart_001_0015_01C54B00.CA2765F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankLeaking pen wrote im waaaaiiiiiitinnnnggg..... hmm, not so quick on the reply when youve been called on what youve said, and are out of wiggle room, it seems. On 4/25/05, leaking pen wrote: > Seems antiquity is loaded with examples of engineering and > architectural works that have us thinking that perhaps the people of > that age were intelligent beings and had not degenerated which seems > to contradict the Darwinian theorists. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>. > again, how is the assumption that ancient people were degenerates > darwinian? and... since according to this supposed thought, people > are naturally smarter now, it wouldnt be degenerated, as nothing had > yet been generated, yes no? >=20 > On 4/25/05, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > > > > > > RC Macaulay wrote: > > > > > Leaking Pen wrote > > > > > > >and i notice, you still havent answered my question. you might = want > > > >to stop jabbing that strawman in the corner, the discussion is = over > > > >HERE. > > > > > > Asked and answered. > > > > > If you folks continue to snip this heavily you're both going to = start > > yelling incoherently in another post or two. > > > > LP asked: > > > > >how... does that refute darwinian theory? > > > > > > > And RCM said: > > > > > no demonstrable experimental proof can be structured to examine = his > > > [Darwin's] theory. > > > > At this point LP said RCM hadn't answered the question. Was there > > another question, or did he overlook the answer, or did he feel the > > response was incomplete or off-topic? Dunno; you both snipped so > > heavily the lurkers can't tell. > > > > At this point it seems to me that LP could talk about longitudinal > > studies of restricted ecologies (e.g., those on islands), or = examples of > > artificial selection, or the contrast between Lysenko and Darwin, or = the > > flaws in the intelligent design theory, or some such. Or he could > > attack the link between the assertion of nonfalsifiability (which is > > what RCM's statement really amounted to) and the claim that = something > > specific refuted Darwinian theory and his use of the term "religious > > theory". But just asserting that the question hasn't been answered > > without even reposting it is a little weak. =20 Leaking Pen apparently took offense to a observation I made in my post = and asked me to keep bias out of the science discussion. My = observation read:=20 "The evidence that remains have us thinking that perhaps the people of = that age were intelligent beings and had not degenerated which seems to contradict the Darwinians theorists." This is not a bias statement, it is an observable comment on the = obvious. Darwin's theory became a religion and has never become a scientific fact = because no evidence of a "half" species has ever been found. The = pyramids are fact since they are in evidence. The parody is that the ancients demonstrated abilities that are in = evidence yet as a people have been discounted as uneducated.. yet = Darwinianism is taught in US schools as "fact" and we are considered " = educated", yet are in conflict with understanding how the ancients were = able to accomplish these remarkable works without being " educated". To give Darwin his due.. I have observed drunks in Texas saloons = "morph" from alligators to buzzards. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0015_01C54B00.CA2765F0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Leaking pen wrote
 
im waaaaiiiiiitinnnnggg.....

hmm, not so quick on the reply = when=20 youve been called on what youve
said, and are out of wiggle room, it=20 seems.

On 4/25/05, leaking pen <itsatrap gmail.com>=20 wrote:
> Seems antiquity is loaded with examples of engineering=20 and
> architectural works that have us thinking that perhaps the = people=20 of
> that age were intelligent beings and had not degenerated = which=20 seems
> to contradict the Darwinian theorists.
>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>&= gt;>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>&g= t;>>>>>>>>>>.
>=20 again, how is the assumption that ancient people were = degenerates
>=20 darwinian?  and...  since according to this supposed thought,=20 people
> are naturally smarter now, it wouldnt be degenerated, as = nothing=20 had
> yet been generated, yes no?
>
> On 4/25/05, = Stephen A.=20 Lawrence <salaw pobox.com> wrote:
> = >
>=20 >
> > RC Macaulay wrote:
> >
> > > = Leaking Pen=20 wrote
> > >
> > > >and i notice, you still = havent=20 answered my question.  you might want
> > > >to stop = jabbing=20 that strawman in the corner, the discussion is over
> > >=20 >HERE.
> > >
> > > Asked and = answered.
> >=20 >
> > If you folks continue to snip this heavily you're both = going=20 to start
> > yelling incoherently in another post or = two.
>=20 >
> > LP asked:
> >
> > >how...  = does that=20 refute darwinian theory?
> > >
> >
> > And = RCM=20 said:
> >
> > > no demonstrable experimental proof = can be=20 structured to examine his
> > > [Darwin's] theory.
>=20 >
> > At this point LP said RCM hadn't answered the = question. =20 Was there
> > another question, or did he overlook the answer, = or did=20 he feel the
> > response was incomplete or off-topic?  = Dunno; you=20 both snipped so
> > heavily the lurkers can't tell.
>=20 >
> > At this point it seems to me that LP could talk about=20 longitudinal
> > studies of restricted ecologies (e.g., those = on=20 islands), or examples of
> > artificial selection, or the = contrast=20 between Lysenko and Darwin, or the
> > flaws in the intelligent = design=20 theory, or some such.  Or he could
> > attack the link = between the=20 assertion of nonfalsifiability (which is
> > what RCM's = statement=20 really amounted to) and the claim that something
> > specific = refuted=20 Darwinian theory and his use of the term "religious
> > = theory". =20 But just asserting that the question hasn't been answered
> > = without=20 even reposting it is a little weak.
 
Leaking Pen apparently took offense to a observation I made in = my post=20 and asked me to keep bias out of the science=20 discussion.        My observation=20  read: 
 
 "The evidence that remains have us thinking that perhaps the = people=20 of that age were intelligent beings and had not degenerated
which seems to contradict the Darwinians theorists."
 
 
This is not a bias statement, it is an observable comment on the=20 obvious.
 
Darwin's theory became a religion and has never become a scientific = fact=20 because  no evidence of a "half" species has ever been found. The = pyramids=20 are fact since they are in evidence.
The parody is that the ancients demonstrated abilities that are in = evidence=20 yet as a people have been discounted as uneducated.. yet Darwinianism is = taught=20 in US schools as "fact" and we are considered " educated", yet are in = conflict=20 with understanding how the ancients were able to accomplish these = remarkable=20 works without being " educated".
 
 
 To give Darwin his due.. I have observed drunks in Texas = saloons=20 "morph" from alligators to buzzards.
 
 Richard
 
 
 

 

------=_NextPart_001_0015_01C54B00.CA2765F0-- ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C54B00.CA2765F0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <001301c54b2a$b2eca510$22027841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C54B00.CA2765F0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 27 06:51:07 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3RDosDK023543; Wed, 27 Apr 2005 06:50:55 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3RDopux023513; Wed, 27 Apr 2005 06:50:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 06:50:51 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20050427094958.0459d050 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 09:50:40 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Part of my book translated into Italian Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59468 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Someone translated the introduction and chapter 1 from my book into Italian. See: www.progettomeg.it/fflibrofreeit.htm I hope it is a good translation! - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 27 07:33:55 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3REXnDK017814; Wed, 27 Apr 2005 07:33:49 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3REXlQW017807; Wed, 27 Apr 2005 07:33:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 07:33:47 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=Mf0/dSx0G/w6HFj5i2FTbK8rlLovH47X7uzuSD8DmbxGVierGMnz3L/bCpfYfC796CJ9XJlxqsgpd95aQhwmvrGR5WdMLqcHWBRPidfMjjet1YgINc+WifJ/wesRiFVntLor7z2DA9ZAsmMbtHUt20i9FrLhbwRaKxUZuuLWpCc= Message-ID: Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 07:33:37 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: OT: Leaking Pen asked and answered In-Reply-To: <001801c54b2a$b37f4820$22027841 xptower> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <001801c54b2a$b37f4820$22027841 xptower> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j3REXfDK017677 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59469 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: uhhh huh. darwinian theory, which is taught as theory, has to do with natural selection and progression of genetic expression to adapt to the environment. it does not state that earlier members of the same species would be stupid. you are atributing a statement to the theory that doesnt belong. /and you are obviously sorely lacking on your understanding of archeology/anthropology. the move from monkey to thinking creature snt found yet, mostly becuase its hard to look at the species we have listed and say, this one thought, this one didnt. On 4/27/05, RC Macaulay wrote: > Leaking pen wrote > > im waaaaiiiiiitinnnnggg..... > > hmm, not so quick on the reply when youve been called on what youve > said, and are out of wiggle room, it seems. > > On 4/25/05, leaking pen wrote: > > Seems antiquity is loaded with examples of engineering and > > architectural works that have us thinking that perhaps the people of > > that age were intelligent beings and had not degenerated which seems > > to contradict the Darwinian theorists. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>. > > again, how is the assumption that ancient people were degenerates > > darwinian? and... since according to this supposed thought, people > > are naturally smarter now, it wouldnt be degenerated, as nothing had > > yet been generated, yes no? > > > > On 4/25/05, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > > > > > > > > > RC Macaulay wrote: > > > > > > > Leaking Pen wrote > > > > > > > > >and i notice, you still havent answered my question. you might want > > > > >to stop jabbing that strawman in the corner, the discussion is over > > > > >HERE. > > > > > > > > Asked and answered. > > > > > > > If you folks continue to snip this heavily you're both going to start > > > yelling incoherently in another post or two. > > > > > > LP asked: > > > > > > >how... does that refute darwinian theory? > > > > > > > > > > And RCM said: > > > > > > > no demonstrable experimental proof can be structured to examine his > > > > [Darwin's] theory. > > > > > > At this point LP said RCM hadn't answered the question. Was there > > > another question, or did he overlook the answer, or did he feel the > > > response was incomplete or off-topic? Dunno; you both snipped so > > > heavily the lurkers can't tell. > > > > > > At this point it seems to me that LP could talk about longitudinal > > > studies of restricted ecologies (e.g., those on islands), or examples of > > > artificial selection, or the contrast between Lysenko and Darwin, or the > > > flaws in the intelligent design theory, or some such. Or he could > > > attack the link between the assertion of nonfalsifiability (which is > > > what RCM's statement really amounted to) and the claim that something > > > specific refuted Darwinian theory and his use of the term "religious > > > theory". But just asserting that the question hasn't been answered > > > without even reposting it is a little weak. > > Leaking Pen apparently took offense to a observation I made in my post and > asked me to keep bias out of the science discussion. My observation > read: > > "The evidence that remains have us thinking that perhaps the people of that > age were intelligent beings and had not degenerated > which seems to contradict the Darwinians theorists." > > > This is not a bias statement, it is an observable comment on the obvious. > > Darwin's theory became a religion and has never become a scientific fact > because no evidence of a "half" species has ever been found. The pyramids > are fact since they are in evidence. > The parody is that the ancients demonstrated abilities that are in evidence > yet as a people have been discounted as uneducated.. yet Darwinianism is > taught in US schools as "fact" and we are considered " educated", yet are in > conflict with understanding how the ancients were able to accomplish these > remarkable works without being " educated". > > > To give Darwin his due.. I have observed drunks in Texas saloons "morph" > from alligators to buzzards. > > Richard > > > > > > -- "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 27 07:58:10 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3REvvDK002639; Wed, 27 Apr 2005 07:57:58 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3REvtFq002623; Wed, 27 Apr 2005 07:57:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 07:57:55 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: "Vortex" Subject: A new generation of Geeks take on Dean Kamen! Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 11:00:07 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: <5EO8-C.A.7o.zh6bCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59470 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Heartburn for Dean Kamen. http://www.ebikes.ca/Projects/Emanual/Index.html Watch out Dean, someone might actually get laid riding one of these boards, me thinks you have some serious competition... K. PS: I've seen a grand total of two (2) Segway in NYC. One was the real McCoy, the other a Chinese knockoff with 4 wheels. I've seen _many_ other scooter and minibike devices, perhaps this summer I'll take some pictures and post. There is a real market for this stuff, but as the boys say on their site, top-down orchestration of social change tends to produce spectacular flameouts and failures. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 27 09:01:27 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3RG1CDK032512; Wed, 27 Apr 2005 09:01:13 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3RG1Bp3032502; Wed, 27 Apr 2005 09:01:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 09:01:11 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20050427113955.03e63e10 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 12:00:58 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: A new generation of Geeks take on Dean Kamen! In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59471 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Keith Nagel wrote: >I've seen _many_ other scooter and minibike devices, perhaps >this summer I'll take some pictures and post. I, on the other hand, have actually ridden some of these things, commuting 6 miles a day. Most of them do not seem practical. For a distance of 1 km or more you need to ride in the street, and the only practical way to do that is with a bicycle. Traveling on the sidewalk is so slow you might as well walk. A vehicle with wheels smaller than a bicycle is difficult to maneuver and it is likely to be overturned by a stone or broken bottle. (The railroad accident in Japan on Monday may have been caused partly by a stone on the rails.) Safety is the biggest problem with any of these vehicles. In the US, riding any kind of vehicle outdoors is dangerous, especially with SUVs prowling around. Even walking is dangerous with those damn things around! You cannot see the drivers and they cannot see you. I have been nearly run down by them on numerous occasions. The only thing worse is a delivery van, and most delivery van drivers realize they have limited vision and they are careful. In China I saw many unusual electric vehicles, including micro-taxicabs/jinrikisha -- like electrified pedal cabs. I saw one with a big fat lady sitting in front and the guy in the back pedaling with the help of a large electric motor. >There is a real market for this stuff . . . There may be, but it has been very difficult for manufacturers to reach in the US. The LaFree electric bicycle I purchased is no longer manufactured. You would think that aging baby boomers would want these things. Here is inexpensive but remarkable looking electric bicycle for $2200: http://www.electricvehiclesnw.com/main/revive-spirit.htm For that kind of money you might as well buy a moped. Or one of these all-electric things: http://www.egovehicles.com/Products/index.cfm?doc_id=122 (These are not mopeds because you cannot pedal them.) - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 27 09:12:19 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3RGC5DK004948; Wed, 27 Apr 2005 09:12:05 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3RGC4o3004932; Wed, 27 Apr 2005 09:12:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 09:12:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20050427121129.03e67170 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 12:11:58 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: EVWorld discusses plug-in hybrids Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59472 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: See: http://www.evworld.com/electrichybrid.cfm - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 27 09:28:39 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3RGSPDK012441; Wed, 27 Apr 2005 09:28:25 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3RGSM6i012389; Wed, 27 Apr 2005 09:28:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 09:28:22 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-UNTD-OriginStamp: GUNT6dKCgH8aoKLPKyRSHtugxkiiefgwkoLLR0hiUZca7TF9qB6X1w== X-Originating-IP: [4.88.34.163] Mime-Version: 1.0 From: "gesrebspar juno.com" Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 16:27:42 GMT To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: VC after the dot.bomb X-Mailer: Webmail Version 3.0 Content-Type: text/plain Message-Id: <20050427.092743.14237.555022 webmail34.nyc.untd.com> X-ContentStamp: 2:2:2962217791 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59473 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The Jet engine as we know it was developed by the English- and the Germans. The first Passenger Jet was built by the English and called the Comet. Having rode in it a couple of times -I felt like the thing was unstable and with its weird noises I had a doomsday feeling. Ges From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 27 09:36:21 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3RGa4DK015882; Wed, 27 Apr 2005 09:36:05 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3RGa04Q015830; Wed, 27 Apr 2005 09:36:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 09:36:00 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <426FBF69.5080408 pobox.com> Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 12:35:53 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.5) Gecko/20050105 Debian/1.7.5-1 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: A new generation of Geeks take on Dean Kamen! References: <6.0.3.0.2.20050427113955.03e63e10@pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.2.20050427113955.03e63e10 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <1mLYUB.A.O3D.u97bCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59474 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > Keith Nagel wrote: > >> I've seen _many_ other scooter and minibike devices, perhaps >> this summer I'll take some pictures and post. > > > I, on the other hand, have actually ridden some of these things, > commuting 6 miles a day. Most of them do not seem practical. For a > distance of 1 km or more you need to ride in the street, and the only > practical way to do that is with a bicycle. Traveling on the sidewalk > is so slow you might as well walk. A vehicle with wheels smaller than > a bicycle is difficult to maneuver and it is likely to be overturned > by a stone or broken bottle. (The railroad accident in Japan on Monday > may have been caused partly by a stone on the rails.) That, and the fact that the train was behind schedule and was reported to be traveling rather faster than normal in an effort to make up the lost time. The relatively inexperienced engineer (23 years old, just 11 months on the job) is suspected of having taken the curve where it derailed far too fast, but there is as yet no proof, and may never be unless the engineer recovers and admits to it. Would a stone on the rails not have tended to derail the locomotive rather than several cars farther down the train, as I believe actually happened? It is difficult to design human-proof systems. > Safety is the biggest problem with any of these vehicles. In the US, > riding any kind of vehicle outdoors is dangerous, especially with SUVs > prowling around. Even walking is dangerous with those damn things > around! You cannot see the drivers and they cannot see you. I have > been nearly run down by them on numerous occasions. SUVs are the biggest argument I know of against the CAFE law in particular and against efforts to directly mandate fuel consumption in general. When the government was serious about putting a dent in cigarette consumption it didn't try to pass a law restricting the number of cigarettes each person could consume in a day, which is more or less what CAFE was trying to do for gasoline. Rather, it just slapped a big (and highly regressive) tax on each pack and let the consumers figure out what to do about it. (OK, OK, it's not a perfect example, the attack on tobacco was actually multipronged -- but the tip of the most obvious prong was a tax, not an attempt at rationing.) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 27 10:04:12 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3RH42DK028962; Wed, 27 Apr 2005 10:04:03 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3RH3x4c028936; Wed, 27 Apr 2005 10:03:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 10:03:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 12:04:27 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: build your own hybrid Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59475 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: The price seems too good to be true http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Electrocharger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 27 10:27:17 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3RHR3DK007116; Wed, 27 Apr 2005 10:27:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3RHQvej007079; Wed, 27 Apr 2005 10:26:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 10:26:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Heavyweight anachronism? Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 13:29:14 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <426EE95E.5030807 bellsouth.net> Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: <5gWS7D.A.juB.gt8bCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59476 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Terry writes: >How can anyone doubt the obvious? No one doubts the obvious. The failure in Iraq however is making it very hard to do anything about Iran. Let's tune in to todays press conference with the folks who know... ////////////////////////////////////////// Asked during the briefing "are we winning" the war, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld did not directly respond. "The United States and the coalition forces, in my personal view, will not be the thing that will defeat the insurgency," Rumsfeld said. "So, therefore, winning or losing is not the issue for 'we,' in my view, in the traditional, conventional context of using the word 'winning' and 'losing' in a war. The people that are going to defeat that insurgency are going to be the Iraqis." After Rumsfeld finished, Myers interjected, "I'm going to say this: I think we are winning, OK? I think we're definitely winning. I think we've been winning for some time." /////////////////////////////////////////// So, it all depends on what your definition of "winning", "losing", and "we" is, is it? Gosh, my dictionary finger is getting sore. How...Clintonian. K. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 27 11:39:25 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3RIdDvg011936; Wed, 27 Apr 2005 11:39:13 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3RIdBBL011918; Wed, 27 Apr 2005 11:39:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 11:39:11 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20050427143754.03e65eb0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 14:39:04 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: New Scientist: "Desktop nuclear fusion demonstrated" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59477 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: See: http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn7315 "An astonishingly simple demonstration of nuclear fusion in a tabletop device has been performed, involving heating an ordinary crystal soaked in deuterium gas. While the technique is unlikely to lead to power generation, such a device could act as a portable source of neutrons for analysing materials and medical imaging, and perhaps even spacecraft propulsion. . . ." From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 27 12:48:31 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3RJmCAq014998; Wed, 27 Apr 2005 12:48:12 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3RJlwjB014842; Wed, 27 Apr 2005 12:47:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 12:47:58 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <001801c54b2a$b37f4820$22027841 xptower> References: <001801c54b2a$b37f4820$22027841 xptower> Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 14:48:22 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: OT: Leaking Pen asked and answered Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <19YouC.A.enD.sx-bCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59478 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > On 4/25/05, leaking pen wrote; > > that age were intelligent beings and had not degenerated which seems > > to contradict the Darwinian theorists. > > RC Macaulay wrote: > > again, how is the assumption that ancient people were degenerates >> darwinian? and... since according to this supposed thought, people >> are naturally smarter now, it wouldnt be degenerated, as nothing had > > yet been generated, yes no? > >Leaking Pen apparently took offense to a observation I made in my >post and asked me to keep bias out of the science discussion. >My observation read: > > "The evidence that remains have us thinking that perhaps the people >of that age were intelligent beings and had not degenerated >which seems to contradict the Darwinians theorists." Leaking's teachers are a contradiction of Darwinian theory. One of the Huxleys admitted that while Darwinian theory was contradicted by the world that they could see, it fit with what they wanted to believe. Man is his own god, sexual morality is what ever you define to be, man is getting better. > >This is not a bias statement, it is an observable comment on the obvious. > >Darwin's theory became a religion and has never become a scientific >fact because no evidence of a "half" species has ever been found. It's an element of Secular Humanism, a religious system that says that man is god. >The pyramids are fact since they are in evidence. >The parody is that the ancients demonstrated abilities that are in >evidence yet as a people have been discounted as uneducated.. All of our learning stands on top of the achievements of our ancestors. There was a time when a good education included the classics and ancient languages. Leaking is a product of the modern educational system which has thrown all that out. As Dennis Prager points out the modern universities are full of educated fools. > yet Darwinianism is taught in US schools as "fact" and we are >considered " educated", yet are in conflict with understanding how >the ancients were able to accomplish these remarkable works without >being " educated". > > To give Darwin his due.. I have observed drunks in Texas saloons "morph" from alligators That must have been some drunk. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 27 13:00:22 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3RJxxAq028333; Wed, 27 Apr 2005 13:00:00 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3RJxwhY028317; Wed, 27 Apr 2005 12:59:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 12:59:58 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [64.174.37.158] X-Originating-Email: [mgoldes msn.com] X-Sender: mgoldes msn.com From: "Mark Goldes" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Nature re Putterman cold fusion Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 12:59:50 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 27 Apr 2005 19:59:51.0201 (UTC) FILETIME=[AC270110:01C54B63] Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59479 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: News Nature 434, 1057 (28 April 2005) | doi: 10.1038/4341057a Physicists look to crystal device for future of fusion Mark Peplow, London Top of page Abstract Desktop apparatus yields stream of neutrons. Seth Putterman is usually on the side of the sceptics when it comes to tabletop fusion. But now he has created a device that may convince researchers to change their minds about the 'f-word'. Tabletop fusion has been a touchy subject since Stanley Pons and Martin Fleischmann said in 1989 that they had achieved 'cold fusion' at room temperature. Putterman helped to discredit this claim, as well as more recent reports of 'bubble fusion'. Now Putterman, a physicist at the University of California, Los Angeles, has turned a tiny crystal into a particle accelerator. When its electric field is focused by a tungsten needle, it fires deuterium ions into a target so fast that the colliding nuclei fuse to create a stream of neutrons. Putterman is not claiming to have created a source of virtually unlimited energy, because the reaction isn't self-sustaining. But until now, achieving any kind of fusion in the lab has required bulky accelerators with large electricity supplies. Replacing that with a small crystal is revolutionary. "The amazing thing is that the crystal can be used as an accelerator without plugging it in to a power station," says Putterman. Putterman got the idea when he delivered a lecture on sonoluminescence and energy focusing at the Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta. Physicist Ahmet Erbil suggested that Putterman should instead consider ferroelectricity. "Here's someone telling me in front of 100 people that I'm working on the wrong thing," recalls Putterman. But the comment got him started on his fusion reactor. The result is published in this week's Nature (see page 1115). Will he be able to avoid the controversy that has dogged other fusion claims? "My first reaction when I saw the paper was 'oh no, not another tabletop fusion paper'," says Mike Saltmarsh, an acclaimed neutron hunter who was called in to resolve the dispute over bubble fusion. "But they've built a neat little accelerator. I'm pretty sure no one has been able to generate neutrons in this way before." Putterman himself isn't worried. "If people think this is a crackpot paper that's just fine," he says. "We're right. Any scientist who says this is too wonderful to believe is welcome to reproduce the experiments." Top of page Related links RELATED STORIES * Collapsing bubbles have hot plasma core * US review rekindles cold fusion debate * Nuclear flash in a pan * Table-top nuclear fusion EXTERNAL LINKS * Putterman on energy focusing * Fusion tutorial From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 27 13:23:03 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3RKMlAq007937; Wed, 27 Apr 2005 13:22:51 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3RKMk7T007929; Wed, 27 Apr 2005 13:22:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 13:22:46 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Nature re Putterman cold fusion Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 16:24:59 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59480 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Thanks Mark, You must have a subscription. I was disappointed the articles are blocked. I wish they would adopt the policy of this publisher and list recent articles. http://www.iop.org/EJ/ All these journals are accessable for the first month or so. The New Journal of Physics is a lot like E-Print server in that all articles are available. BTW, this is an interesting article, but more for the method of HV generation than fusion as such. Very clever. K. -----Original Message----- From: Mark Goldes [mailto:mgoldes msn.com] Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2005 4:00 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Nature re Putterman cold fusion News Nature 434, 1057 (28 April 2005) | doi: 10.1038/4341057a Physicists look to crystal device for future of fusion Mark Peplow, London Top of page Abstract Desktop apparatus yields stream of neutrons. Seth Putterman is usually on the side of the sceptics when it comes to tabletop fusion. But now he has created a device that may convince researchers to change their minds about the 'f-word'. Tabletop fusion has been a touchy subject since Stanley Pons and Martin Fleischmann said in 1989 that they had achieved 'cold fusion' at room temperature. Putterman helped to discredit this claim, as well as more recent reports of 'bubble fusion'. Now Putterman, a physicist at the University of California, Los Angeles, has turned a tiny crystal into a particle accelerator. When its electric field is focused by a tungsten needle, it fires deuterium ions into a target so fast that the colliding nuclei fuse to create a stream of neutrons. Putterman is not claiming to have created a source of virtually unlimited energy, because the reaction isn't self-sustaining. But until now, achieving any kind of fusion in the lab has required bulky accelerators with large electricity supplies. Replacing that with a small crystal is revolutionary. "The amazing thing is that the crystal can be used as an accelerator without plugging it in to a power station," says Putterman. Putterman got the idea when he delivered a lecture on sonoluminescence and energy focusing at the Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta. Physicist Ahmet Erbil suggested that Putterman should instead consider ferroelectricity. "Here's someone telling me in front of 100 people that I'm working on the wrong thing," recalls Putterman. But the comment got him started on his fusion reactor. The result is published in this week's Nature (see page 1115). Will he be able to avoid the controversy that has dogged other fusion claims? "My first reaction when I saw the paper was 'oh no, not another tabletop fusion paper'," says Mike Saltmarsh, an acclaimed neutron hunter who was called in to resolve the dispute over bubble fusion. "But they've built a neat little accelerator. I'm pretty sure no one has been able to generate neutrons in this way before." Putterman himself isn't worried. "If people think this is a crackpot paper that's just fine," he says. "We're right. Any scientist who says this is too wonderful to believe is welcome to reproduce the experiments." Top of page Related links RELATED STORIES * Collapsing bubbles have hot plasma core * US review rekindles cold fusion debate * Nuclear flash in a pan * Table-top nuclear fusion EXTERNAL LINKS * Putterman on energy focusing * Fusion tutorial From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 27 13:36:16 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3RKa5Aq018401; Wed, 27 Apr 2005 13:36:05 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3RKa0kD018348; Wed, 27 Apr 2005 13:36:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 13:36:00 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20050427155756.03ea3dd0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 16:34:42 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Accident in Japan In-Reply-To: <426FBF69.5080408 pobox.com> References: <6.0.3.0.2.20050427113955.03e63e10 pop.mindspring.com> <426FBF69.5080408 pobox.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59481 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: >>likely to be overturned by a stone or broken bottle. (The railroad >>accident in Japan on Monday may have been caused partly by a stone on the >>rails.) > >That, and the fact that the train was behind schedule and was reported to >be traveling rather faster than normal in an effort to make up the lost time. No doubt that was the main cause. But the speed was ~100 kph which was probably not fast enough to cause the accident without other contributing factors. Investigators are examining damage and white grains on the rail which may indicate there was a stone on the tracks. It would have to be a small stone, because the front car has a bumper that pushes anything larger than a few centimeters out of the way. Actually, the very latest news reports say that investigators are looking into a possible "wheel load balance" failure during emergency braking. They suspect the lead car may have jumped the track when the engineer panicked and slammed on the brakes. Details on the accident are being reported obsessively on Japanese television and in the press. Every morning and evening broadcast features a parade of university professors who describe the physics and engineering in more detail than you would see in most US media, except for PBS or the History Channel's "Modern Marvels" program. >The relatively inexperienced engineer (23 years old, just 11 months on the >job) is suspected of having taken the curve where it derailed far too >fast, but there is as yet no proof . . . There is plenty of proof of that. They have recovered something like a black box recorder with a record of the speed and other operating parameters. >. . . and may never be unless the engineer recovers and admits to it. The engineer is dead. The body has not been recovered yet as far as I know. >Would a stone on the rails not have tended to derail the locomotive rather >than several cars farther down the train, as I believe actually happened? This is a commuter electric train was no locomotive. All cars are powered. As far as I know the first car jumped the track first. It ended up in the parking garage of the condominium. The second car was wrapped around the edge of the condominium building. Amazingly, the building itself sustained little damage, and building inspectors say it can be repaired and will not be condemned. I doubt anyone will want to live there though! The Japanese railways have a superb safety record and accidents of this nature are almost unheard of. In fact, officials have been astounded to learn that the engine driver exceeded the speed limit. That almost never happens. If he had been caught I expect he would have been fired forthwith. The president of the company and several other high officials will take responsibility and resign as soon as the initial investigation ends -- obviously. In the old days the immediate supervisor would probably have committed suicide. The company president has been shown on the seven o'clock news going around visiting *every single victim's family* and apologizing in person. I doubt that would happen in any other country. The poor fellow looks like a nervous wreck. He said on TV: "I spent all day and night having people tell me: 'Why did you take my daughter from me?!? How could you do this to me???'" I wish we could subject all corporate and government officials to this kind of treatment when they are responsible for terrible accidents, wars, pollution, etc. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 27 13:48:51 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3RKmTAq024725; Wed, 27 Apr 2005 13:48:29 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3RKmRWK024714; Wed, 27 Apr 2005 13:48:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 13:48:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <410-220054327204811470 ix.netcom.com> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: aki ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.1.47.0 (Windows) From: "Akira Kawasaki" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: Nature re Putterman cold fusion Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 13:48:11 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: c4cc7f5f697e8746f66dc3a06d5924d8b8d561077b5acf0fc9861912ce29a20531a49835436c9336350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 216.175.86.193 Resent-Message-ID: <70bHc.A._BG.aq_bCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59482 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: April 27, 2005 Vortex, Hi Mark. Did the Nature article say what the crystal was? Thanks for the news tip. -ak- > [Original Message] > From: Mark Goldes > To: > Date: 4/27/2005 1:00:00 PM > Subject: Nature re Putterman cold fusion > > News > > Nature 434, 1057 (28 April 2005) | doi: 10.1038/4341057a > Physicists look to crystal device for future of fusion > > Mark Peplow, London > Top of page > Abstract > > Desktop apparatus yields stream of neutrons. > > Seth Putterman is usually on the side of the sceptics when it comes to > tabletop fusion. But now he has created a device that may convince > researchers to change their minds about the 'f-word'. > > Tabletop fusion has been a touchy subject since Stanley Pons and Martin > Fleischmann said in 1989 that they had achieved 'cold fusion' at room > temperature. Putterman helped to discredit this claim, as well as more > recent reports of 'bubble fusion'. > > Now Putterman, a physicist at the University of California, Los Angeles, has > turned a tiny crystal into a particle accelerator. When its electric field > is focused by a tungsten needle, it fires deuterium ions into a target so > fast that the colliding nuclei fuse to create a stream of neutrons. > > Putterman is not claiming to have created a source of virtually unlimited > energy, because the reaction isn't self-sustaining. But until now, achieving > any kind of fusion in the lab has required bulky accelerators with large > electricity supplies. Replacing that with a small crystal is revolutionary. > "The amazing thing is that the crystal can be used as an accelerator without > plugging it in to a power station," says Putterman. > > Putterman got the idea when he delivered a lecture on sonoluminescence and > energy focusing at the Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta. Physicist > Ahmet Erbil suggested that Putterman should instead consider > ferroelectricity. > > "Here's someone telling me in front of 100 people that I'm working on the > wrong thing," recalls Putterman. But the comment got him started on his > fusion reactor. The result is published in this week's Nature (see page > 1115). > > Will he be able to avoid the controversy that has dogged other fusion > claims? "My first reaction when I saw the paper was 'oh no, not another > tabletop fusion paper'," says Mike Saltmarsh, an acclaimed neutron hunter > who was called in to resolve the dispute over bubble fusion. "But they've > built a neat little accelerator. I'm pretty sure no one has been able to > generate neutrons in this way before." > > Putterman himself isn't worried. "If people think this is a crackpot paper > that's just fine," he says. "We're right. Any scientist who says this is too > wonderful to believe is welcome to reproduce the experiments." > Top of page > Related links > RELATED STORIES > > * Collapsing bubbles have hot plasma core > * US review rekindles cold fusion debate > * Nuclear flash in a pan > * Table-top nuclear fusion > > EXTERNAL LINKS > > * Putterman on energy focusing > * Fusion tutorial > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 27 14:00:07 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3RKxrAq029679; Wed, 27 Apr 2005 13:59:55 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3RKxqM0029672; Wed, 27 Apr 2005 13:59:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 13:59:52 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20050427165816.03e90530 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 16:59:47 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: RE: Nature re Putterman cold fusion In-Reply-To: <410-220054327204811470 ix.netcom.com> References: <410-220054327204811470 ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59483 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Akira Kawasaki wrote: >Hi Mark. Did the Nature article say what the crystal was? The New Scientist article I referenced says it is lithium tantalate. You do not need a subscription to see the New Scientist article. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 27 14:03:25 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3RL39Aq030924; Wed, 27 Apr 2005 14:03:10 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3RL343A030888; Wed, 27 Apr 2005 14:03:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 14:03:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: "Vortex" Subject: RE: Nature re Putterman cold fusion Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 17:05:23 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <410-220054327204811470 ix.netcom.com> Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: <7jOyr.A.fiH.I4_bCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59484 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Akira, Lithium Tantalate. http://www.sawseek.com/prody1.html http://www.almazoptics.com/LiTaO3.html K. -----Original Message----- From: Akira Kawasaki [mailto:aki ix.netcom.com] Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2005 4:48 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: Nature re Putterman cold fusion April 27, 2005 Vortex, Hi Mark. Did the Nature article say what the crystal was? Thanks for the news tip. -ak- > [Original Message] > From: Mark Goldes > To: > Date: 4/27/2005 1:00:00 PM > Subject: Nature re Putterman cold fusion > > News > > Nature 434, 1057 (28 April 2005) | doi: 10.1038/4341057a > Physicists look to crystal device for future of fusion > > Mark Peplow, London > Top of page > Abstract > > Desktop apparatus yields stream of neutrons. > > Seth Putterman is usually on the side of the sceptics when it comes to > tabletop fusion. But now he has created a device that may convince > researchers to change their minds about the 'f-word'. > > Tabletop fusion has been a touchy subject since Stanley Pons and Martin > Fleischmann said in 1989 that they had achieved 'cold fusion' at room > temperature. Putterman helped to discredit this claim, as well as more > recent reports of 'bubble fusion'. > > Now Putterman, a physicist at the University of California, Los Angeles, has > turned a tiny crystal into a particle accelerator. When its electric field > is focused by a tungsten needle, it fires deuterium ions into a target so > fast that the colliding nuclei fuse to create a stream of neutrons. > > Putterman is not claiming to have created a source of virtually unlimited > energy, because the reaction isn't self-sustaining. But until now, achieving > any kind of fusion in the lab has required bulky accelerators with large > electricity supplies. Replacing that with a small crystal is revolutionary. > "The amazing thing is that the crystal can be used as an accelerator without > plugging it in to a power station," says Putterman. > > Putterman got the idea when he delivered a lecture on sonoluminescence and > energy focusing at the Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta. Physicist > Ahmet Erbil suggested that Putterman should instead consider > ferroelectricity. > > "Here's someone telling me in front of 100 people that I'm working on the > wrong thing," recalls Putterman. But the comment got him started on his > fusion reactor. The result is published in this week's Nature (see page > 1115). > > Will he be able to avoid the controversy that has dogged other fusion > claims? "My first reaction when I saw the paper was 'oh no, not another > tabletop fusion paper'," says Mike Saltmarsh, an acclaimed neutron hunter > who was called in to resolve the dispute over bubble fusion. "But they've > built a neat little accelerator. I'm pretty sure no one has been able to > generate neutrons in this way before." > > Putterman himself isn't worried. "If people think this is a crackpot paper > that's just fine," he says. "We're right. Any scientist who says this is too > wonderful to believe is welcome to reproduce the experiments." > Top of page > Related links > RELATED STORIES > > * Collapsing bubbles have hot plasma core > * US review rekindles cold fusion debate > * Nuclear flash in a pan > * Table-top nuclear fusion > > EXTERNAL LINKS > > * Putterman on energy focusing > * Fusion tutorial > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 27 14:19:14 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3RLJ4Aq004888; Wed, 27 Apr 2005 14:19:04 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3RLIxeD004829; Wed, 27 Apr 2005 14:18:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 14:18:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <427001BD.8060307 pobox.com> Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 17:18:53 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.5) Gecko/20050105 Debian/1.7.5-1 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Accident in Japan References: <6.0.3.0.2.20050427113955.03e63e10@pop.mindspring.com> <426FBF69.5080408@pobox.com> <6.0.3.0.2.20050427155756.03ea3dd0@pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.2.20050427155756.03ea3dd0 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59485 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > >> . . . and may never be unless the engineer recovers and admits to it. > > > The engineer is dead. The body has not been recovered yet as far as I > know. Oops! I thought I read that he was hospitalized, still alive but not yet able to talk to anybody. Guess that was wrong, eh? Oh, well, that's what I get for trying to exercise my French by getting the news from LeMonde. >> Would a stone on the rails not have tended to derail the locomotive >> rather than several cars farther down the train, as I believe >> actually happened? > > > This is a commuter electric train was no locomotive. All cars are powered. Aha! I had read that 3 of the 7 cars derailed but didn't realize they were the _first_ three ... oh well, whatever. > The company president has been shown on the seven o'clock news going > around visiting *every single victim's family* and apologizing in > person. I doubt that would happen in any other country. The poor > fellow looks like a nervous wreck. He said on TV: "I spent all day and > night having people tell me: 'Why did you take my daughter from me?!? > How could you do this to me???'" I wish we could subject all corporate > and government officials to this kind of treatment when they are > responsible for terrible accidents, wars, pollution, etc. That is incredible. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 27 14:28:00 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3RLReAq008145; Wed, 27 Apr 2005 14:27:40 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3RLRbnw008121; Wed, 27 Apr 2005 14:27:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 14:27:37 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=ajmBmRcWAuKwCenVdjXuZPV1z2rOotKf5qiWUAd/vFpx7apozHJG7JY8RvcvR1qtWKHVaI5Fazd5WtVy1BimqkV2Br5SNHucAUY9G8C5tGcJhKSqoF0Z/YjKpAcGItYK/IOFMnJm1d9UDFLPxsbLpo2sbFujSVbpE3DvTtq/rgU= Message-ID: Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 14:27:25 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: OT: Leaking Pen asked and answered In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <001801c54b2a$b37f4820$22027841 xptower> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j3RLRUAq008048 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59486 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: please, dont refer to my "teachers". i based my statements off my own reading of darwins work. only way to interpret or critique someones work is to actually read it yourself. in addition, you assume much, that i agree with all darwins theories, that i dont speak other languages, the form of my education, ect. dont assume, youve made enough of an ass out of yourself already. On 4/27/05, thomas malloy wrote: > > > On 4/25/05, leaking pen wrote; > > > > that age were intelligent beings and had not degenerated which seems > > > to contradict the Darwinian theorists. > > > > RC Macaulay wrote: > > > > again, how is the assumption that ancient people were degenerates > >> darwinian? and... since according to this supposed thought, people > >> are naturally smarter now, it wouldnt be degenerated, as nothing had > > > yet been generated, yes no? > > > > >Leaking Pen apparently took offense to a observation I made in my > >post and asked me to keep bias out of the science discussion. > >My observation read: > > > > "The evidence that remains have us thinking that perhaps the people > >of that age were intelligent beings and had not degenerated > >which seems to contradict the Darwinians theorists." > > Leaking's teachers are a contradiction of Darwinian theory. One of > the Huxleys admitted that while Darwinian theory was contradicted by > the world that they could see, it fit with what they wanted to > believe. Man is his own god, sexual morality is what ever you define > to be, man is getting better. > > > > >This is not a bias statement, it is an observable comment on the obvious. > > > >Darwin's theory became a religion and has never become a scientific > >fact because no evidence of a "half" species has ever been found. > > It's an element of Secular Humanism, a religious system that says > that man is god. > > >The pyramids are fact since they are in evidence. > >The parody is that the ancients demonstrated abilities that are in > >evidence yet as a people have been discounted as uneducated.. > > All of our learning stands on top of the achievements of our > ancestors. There was a time when a good education included the > classics and ancient languages. Leaking is a product of the modern > educational system which has thrown all that out. As Dennis Prager > points out the modern universities are full of educated fools. > > > yet Darwinianism is taught in US schools as "fact" and we are > >considered " educated", yet are in conflict with understanding how > >the ancients were able to accomplish these remarkable works without > >being " educated". > > > > > To give Darwin his due.. I have observed drunks in Texas saloons > "morph" from alligators > > That must have been some drunk. > > -- "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 27 15:08:53 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3RM8fAq024313; Wed, 27 Apr 2005 15:08:42 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3RM8esk024292; Wed, 27 Apr 2005 15:08:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 15:08:40 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20050427174258.03e86eb0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 18:08:27 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Accident in Japan In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.2.20050427155756.03ea3dd0 pop.mindspring.com> References: <6.0.3.0.2.20050427113955.03e63e10 pop.mindspring.com> <426FBF69.5080408 pobox.com> <6.0.3.0.2.20050427155756.03ea3dd0 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <7xsUtD.A.e7F.n1AcCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59487 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I wrote: >The engineer is dead. The body has not been recovered yet as far as I know. I mean they have located the body but not recovered it yet, according to the latest news reports. >In the old days the immediate supervisor would probably have committed >suicide. Not so old days. An Australian news report that says that in 2001 an engine driver hanged himself after being penalized for departing from Kyoto Station 50 seconds late: http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,15108757%255E2703,00.html He couldn't stand the "re-education" program he was subjected to as punishment. I am not surprised. Some of those corporate re-education programs have a tough reputation. You can imagine why the young guy, Takami, was rushing to make up time on Monday. They do tend to set harsh, impossibly high standards and ridiculously tight train schedules in Japan. The press there is saying that was probably the root cause of the accident. It is saying society needs to relax. The latest engineering speculation about the cause is reported in English here: http://mdn.mainichi.co.jp/news/20050427p2a00m0dm010001c.html Photos here: http://mdn.mainichi.co.jp/photospecials/0504/0425train/26.html - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 27 15:32:43 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3RMWCAq001900; Wed, 27 Apr 2005 15:32:17 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3RMW1iJ001774; Wed, 27 Apr 2005 15:32:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 15:32:01 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20050427181803.03eaa350 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 18:30:02 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Accident in Japan - what else you find at the Mainichi site In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.2.20050427174258.03e86eb0 pop.mindspring.com> References: <6.0.3.0.2.20050427113955.03e63e10 pop.mindspring.com> <426FBF69.5080408 pobox.com> <6.0.3.0.2.20050427155756.03ea3dd0 pop.mindspring.com> <6.0.3.0.2.20050427174258.03e86eb0 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <8X52RC.A.cb.eLBcCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59489 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I wrote: >The latest engineering speculation about the cause is reported in English >here: > >http://mdn.mainichi.co.jp/news/20050427p2a00m0dm010001c.html > >Photos here: > >http://mdn.mainichi.co.jp/photospecials/0504/0425train/26.html And while we are visiting the Mainichi site . . . Last month I described in Japan is being very "promiscuous" or lascivious. If you have any doubt about that, check out this section of Mainichi web site: http://mdn.mainichi.co.jp/waiwai/index.html ("Waiwai" means "gab about rumors") Please note that the Mainichi is one of Japan's biggest and most influential national newspapers, equivalent to the New York Times, the Washington Post, or the U.K. Times. Try to imagine one of these newspapers featuring a web site like this one. You would sooner expect to find a Saudi government web site featuring a wet T-shirt contest. There are still cultural differences in the world! We are not all homogeneous yet. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 27 16:30:47 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3RNUZAq005320; Wed, 27 Apr 2005 16:30:35 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3RNUWvR005302; Wed, 27 Apr 2005 16:30:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 16:30:32 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <427020A8.3080204 bellsouth.net> Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 19:30:48 -0400 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040804 Netscape/7.2 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Accident in Japan References: <6.0.3.0.2.20050427113955.03e63e10@pop.mindspring.com> <426FBF69.5080408@pobox.com> <6.0.3.0.2.20050427155756.03ea3dd0@pop.mindspring.com> <6.0.3.0.2.20050427174258.03e86eb0@pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.2.20050427174258.03e86eb0 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <3cRPDB.A.sSB.XCCcCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59490 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > Not so old days. An Australian news report that says that in 2001 an > engine driver hanged himself after being penalized for departing from > Kyoto Station 50 seconds late: > > http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,15108757%255E2703,00.html > Reminds me of Benito, the first neo-con! http://www.guardian.co.uk/elsewhere/journalist/story/0,7792,634502,00.html http://www.snopes.com/history/govern/trains.htm I think we will find that a weld joint in the track was uneven which made the derailment speed lower than projected. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 27 17:40:38 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3S0ePgO005301; Wed, 27 Apr 2005 17:40:26 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3S0eOIv005290; Wed, 27 Apr 2005 17:40:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 17:40:24 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: "Vortex" Subject: RE: Nature re Putterman cold fusion Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 20:42:42 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59491 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi All, Some additional info. Movies etc. http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v434/n7037/suppinfo/nature03575.html When the slashdot crowd gets through with it, more stuff here. http://rodan.physics.ucla.edu/pyrofusion/ K. -----Original Message----- From: Keith Nagel [mailto:knagel gis.net] Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2005 5:05 PM To: Vortex Subject: RE: Nature re Putterman cold fusion Hi Akira, Lithium Tantalate. http://www.sawseek.com/prody1.html http://www.almazoptics.com/LiTaO3.html K. -----Original Message----- From: Akira Kawasaki [mailto:aki ix.netcom.com] Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2005 4:48 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: Nature re Putterman cold fusion April 27, 2005 Vortex, Hi Mark. Did the Nature article say what the crystal was? Thanks for the news tip. -ak- > [Original Message] > From: Mark Goldes > To: > Date: 4/27/2005 1:00:00 PM > Subject: Nature re Putterman cold fusion > > News > > Nature 434, 1057 (28 April 2005) | doi: 10.1038/4341057a > Physicists look to crystal device for future of fusion > > Mark Peplow, London > Top of page > Abstract > > Desktop apparatus yields stream of neutrons. > > Seth Putterman is usually on the side of the sceptics when it comes to > tabletop fusion. But now he has created a device that may convince > researchers to change their minds about the 'f-word'. > > Tabletop fusion has been a touchy subject since Stanley Pons and Martin > Fleischmann said in 1989 that they had achieved 'cold fusion' at room > temperature. Putterman helped to discredit this claim, as well as more > recent reports of 'bubble fusion'. > > Now Putterman, a physicist at the University of California, Los Angeles, has > turned a tiny crystal into a particle accelerator. When its electric field > is focused by a tungsten needle, it fires deuterium ions into a target so > fast that the colliding nuclei fuse to create a stream of neutrons. > > Putterman is not claiming to have created a source of virtually unlimited > energy, because the reaction isn't self-sustaining. But until now, achieving > any kind of fusion in the lab has required bulky accelerators with large > electricity supplies. Replacing that with a small crystal is revolutionary. > "The amazing thing is that the crystal can be used as an accelerator without > plugging it in to a power station," says Putterman. > > Putterman got the idea when he delivered a lecture on sonoluminescence and > energy focusing at the Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta. Physicist > Ahmet Erbil suggested that Putterman should instead consider > ferroelectricity. > > "Here's someone telling me in front of 100 people that I'm working on the > wrong thing," recalls Putterman. But the comment got him started on his > fusion reactor. The result is published in this week's Nature (see page > 1115). > > Will he be able to avoid the controversy that has dogged other fusion > claims? "My first reaction when I saw the paper was 'oh no, not another > tabletop fusion paper'," says Mike Saltmarsh, an acclaimed neutron hunter > who was called in to resolve the dispute over bubble fusion. "But they've > built a neat little accelerator. I'm pretty sure no one has been able to > generate neutrons in this way before." > > Putterman himself isn't worried. "If people think this is a crackpot paper > that's just fine," he says. "We're right. Any scientist who says this is too > wonderful to believe is welcome to reproduce the experiments." > Top of page > Related links > RELATED STORIES > > * Collapsing bubbles have hot plasma core > * US review rekindles cold fusion debate > * Nuclear flash in a pan > * Table-top nuclear fusion > > EXTERNAL LINKS > > * Putterman on energy focusing > * Fusion tutorial > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 27 15:22:20 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3RMM7Aq029947; Wed, 27 Apr 2005 15:22:08 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3RMM5Xp029918; Wed, 27 Apr 2005 15:22:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 15:22:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42701086.5000802 comcast.net> Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 17:21:58 -0500 From: Bob Fickle User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: SMOT closed-loop roll arounds? (2nd msg) References: <20050427115415.82789.qmail web42109.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20050427115415.82789.qmail web42109.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59488 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com X-Suspected-Spam: billb friends3 Status: RO X-Status: Why not just dispense with the ramps altogether, and instead mount the "ball" on the rim of a bicycle-size wheel- using the smoothest bearings you can find, and very lightweight construction?  That way the "return" is free, with less friction than you've got now;  just position the magnets along the rim's path, and  we could settle this close-the-loop question in short order.

Prometheus Effect wrote:
--- William Beaty <billb@eskimo.com> wrote:
  
On Wed, 27 Apr 2005, Prometheus Effect wrote:

    
I can only report on what I achieved and from
      
memory
    
it was not stable.
      
So then, stable or not, what was *your* record for
number of roll-arounds?
    

Hi Bill,

Sorry but I don't have my original notes so I can't
give you more info. However when I finish the single
ramp return device maybe I'll put it on a web cam.
Then you can count the loops yourself ;-)


Now it's just engineering effort, time and money,
Greg

Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies.
http://au.movies.yahoo.com
From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 27 23:48:25 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3S6mHJ6022057; Wed, 27 Apr 2005 23:48:17 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3S6mGab022047; Wed, 27 Apr 2005 23:48:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 23:48:16 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Baronvolsung aol.com Message-ID: <7b.44286195.2fa1e127 aol.com> Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 02:48:07 EDT Subject: Re: Pyramid water pumps To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_7b.44286195.2fa1e127_boundary" X-Mailer: 6.0 sub 10578 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59492 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --part1_7b.44286195.2fa1e127_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The heat differential between hot limestone in a pyramid and in water underground or in a moat around the pyramid can be used to create a natural heat pump to pump water out of the ground to farmlands as shown below at the following websites: "http://bwt.jeffotto.com/bwt_catalogue/electricity.htm Thermal Storage:http://bwt.jeffotto.com/bwt_catalogue/thermal.htm LTPC Farm Pump >>> The Super Heat Pump can make hot refrigerant very efficiently from ambient, and cold water from the ground on its way to the crops can cool the gas down to repeat the work cycle that pumps the water and drives the compressor. The crops get luke warm water for free. " Baron Von Volsung, www.rhfweb.com\baron, Email: www.rhfweb.com\emailform.html President Thomas D. Clark, Email: www.rhfweb.com\emailform.html, Personal Web Page: www.rhfweb.com\personal New Age Production's Inc., www.rhfweb.com\newage Star Haven Community Services, at www.rhfweb.com\sh. Radiation Health Foundation Trust at www.rhfweb.com Making a difference one person at a time Get informed. Inform others. --part1_7b.44286195.2fa1e127_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The heat diff= erential between hot limestone in a pyramid and in water underground or in a= moat around the pyramid can be used to create a natural heat pump to pump w= ater out of the ground to farmlands as shown below at the following websites= :

"http://bwt.jeffotto.com/bwt_catalogue/electricity.htm =20
Thermal Storage:http://bwt.jeffotto.com/bwt_catalogue/thermal.htm

LTPC Farm Pump >>> The Super Heat Pump can make hot refr= igerant very efficiently from ambient, and cold water from the ground on its= way to the crops can cool the gas down to repeat the work cycle that pumps=20= the water and drives the compressor. The crops get luke warm water for free.= =20
"

Baron Von Volsung, www.rhfweb.co= m\baron, Email: www.rhf= web.com\emailform.html=20
President Thomas D. Clark, Email: www.rhfweb.com\emailform.html,=20
Personal Web Page: www.rhfweb= .com\personal=20
New Age Production's Inc., www.= rhfweb.com\newage=20
Star Haven Community Services, at w= ww.rhfweb.com\sh.=20
Radiation Health Foundation Trust at = www.rhfweb.com=20

Making a difference one person at a time=20
Get informed. Inform others.=20

--part1_7b.44286195.2fa1e127_boundary-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 28 00:17:05 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3S7GlJ6003416; Thu, 28 Apr 2005 00:16:47 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3S7Gj6n003391; Thu, 28 Apr 2005 00:16:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 00:16:45 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <001801c54b2a$b37f4820$22027841 xptower> Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 02:17:28 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: OT: Leaking Pen asked and answered Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59493 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >please, dont refer to my "teachers". i based my statements off my own >reading of darwins work. only way to interpret or critique someones >work is to actually read it yourself. in addition, you assume much, >that i agree with all darwins theories, that i dont speak other >languages, the form of my education, ect. dont assume, youve made >enough of an ass out of yourself already. > Richard and I are unwilling to let your misguided ideas go unchallenged, Leaking. I realize that you don't see it now, but we're doing you a favor. I call it the education of Leaking. As for your education, you said that you'd been to college. You've picked up the intellectual establishment's Party Line somewhere. However, you clearly didn't gain an appreciation for the necessity of capitalization in freshman English. As for Charles Darwin. A program aired last evening on Trinity Broadcasting System, I assume that you missed it. They quoted a scientist who lived in the late 19 century. He said that, "we believe Darwin's hypothesis not because it looks tenable, but because the alternative is a creator, which is unacceptable." If you read Parksie's column in last week's What's New, you will notice his attack on Intelligent Design. He points out that the press ignored the debate that the I D advocates staged, why am I not surprised? Parksie said it himself."if you believe in an entity (G-d) who manipulates DNA, you are terminally ignorant." Hum, well we can't both be right. The program also pointed out that Darwin believed white people to be superior to everyone else, and man to be intellectual superior to women. Wow, the feminist intelligencia would have a hissy fit over both of those ideas. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 28 00:19:06 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3S7IvJ6004360; Thu, 28 Apr 2005 00:18:57 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3S7ItJM004333; Thu, 28 Apr 2005 00:18:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 00:18:55 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20050428071848.43885.qmail web42107.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 17:18:48 +1000 (EST) From: Prometheus Effect Subject: Re: SMOT closed-loop roll arounds? (2nd msg) To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: 6667 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59494 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- Bob Fickle wrote: Why not just dispense with the ramps altogether, and instead mount the"ball" on the rim of a bicycle-size wheel- using the smoothest bearingsyou can find, and very lightweight construction? That way the "return" is free, with less friction than you've got now; just position themagnets along the rim's path, and we could settle this close-the-loop question in short order. Hi Bob, The Prometheus Effect involves gravity and requires a exit at 90deg to the main inline field. I wish it was as easy as your idea, Greg Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies. http://au.movies.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 28 03:26:25 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3SAQFv9002941; Thu, 28 Apr 2005 03:26:16 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3SAQD7T002922; Thu, 28 Apr 2005 03:26:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 03:26:13 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 03:26:13 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Is "Prometheus Effect" actually Greg Watson? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59495 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > On Wed, 27 Apr 2005, Prometheus Effect wrote: > > > I can only report on what I achieved and from memory > > it was not stable. So then, stable or not, what was *your* record for number of closed-loop roll-arounds? > Sorry but I don't have my original notes so I can't > give you more info. Hmmm. Suspicions confirmed. This is like saying "I won the national lottery in 1997, but I lost my notes, so I can't tell you the dollar amount." Riiiight. Screw the notes. You claimed to have had the thing running!!!! HOW LONG DID IT RUN? You built it and were looking right at it. The actual inventor would certainly know, with no notes needed. Perhaps "Prometheus Effect" is not Greg Watson at all. It's trivally easy for an imposter to create a Yahoo Group. (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb at amasci com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 28 03:31:13 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3SAV1v9006960; Thu, 28 Apr 2005 03:31:01 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3SAV0Pu006944; Thu, 28 Apr 2005 03:31:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 03:31:00 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 03:30:59 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Greg's msg from 1997: continuous closed-loop SMOT Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <6_qdBB.A.bsB.jtLcCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59496 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Vortex-L archives have your original message announcing successful closed-loop operation. And successful rotating-wheel-device operation! See below. To all: while reading this, keep in mind that it all happened eight years ago and we've yet to see evidence that his devices ever existed. Keep asking yourself whether it's some well-crafted lies or not. Then figure out ways to find out for sure. ((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) )))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb at amasci com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur sci, hobby proj, sci fair Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 unusual phenom, tesla, weird sci Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 10:51:27 +0930 From: Greg Watson To: vortex-l eskimo.com, newman-l@emachine.com, neotech xbn.shore.net, freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Simple Ou Device Offline Hi All, Sorry to say, but my patent attorney has pulled the plug. By the way, I closed the loop late last night! It is sort of ramp based. Not much power yet. It has been running (self powered) for 12 hours now. Must close now. I will post again as soon as posible. To all thouse of you who have built ramps, all I can say is get three linked ramps working and then study the second (middle) ramp. Think outside the square. -- Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 08:15:26 +0930 From: Greg Watson To: vortex-l eskimo.com, newman-l@emachine.com, neotech xbn.shore.net, freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Simple Rotary Ou Device Hi All, Just a short note to try to answer those questions I can. 1) There is NO outside power source. 2) The device contains only ceramic magnet and ferromagnetic materials (some balsa, a few bearings and some plactic "U" channel as well). 3) The device produces rotary torque. Can be stopped with very little pressure from two fingers on a steel 4mm shaft. 4) The device has been moved to the middle of my lounge and my back garden. It still works. 5) The device will not auto start. However the energy necessary to start is only that required to overcome friction. 6) I don't think the device is worthy of a Nobel or my picture on Business Week. I know of several other devices (Finstrud, Gary, Kawai,Bob Shannon's Barkenhausen Effect Battery and many US patents) which show magnetic devices can do work. For some strange reason, we seem to "Not want to believe" or maybe just want to believe in our own area of research as the "One true path". 7) I have posted enough details and ideas for those of you who REALLY want to duplicate the device to do so. Read my postings. 8) Much work still remains to be able to light a 1 watt bulb. When I can do that, I will make available through Stephan's and Bill's OU web sites a Mpeg of the device working. If I can't light a bulb, it will still make a nice toy and maybe a starting place for someone else. 9) The magnets don't appear to be getting weaker or colder, but then I am not generating much power yet. 10) I still call the effect DNMEC (Direct Nuclear Magnetic Energy Conversion). Like my flux gate DNMEC effect, both these effects revolve around ferromagnetic and magnet interactions. I believe the Kawai motor is another variation of the DNMEC effect (like the Rod & Coil we discussed earlier). Come on guys (and gals), start thinking outside of the square. There is always more than one way to crack eggs. Stop talking .............. BUILD SOMETHING!!!!!!!!! -- Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson microtronics.com.au Greg Watson Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb at amasci com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 28 03:32:34 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3SAWMv9007660; Thu, 28 Apr 2005 03:32:26 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3SAWJQb007635; Thu, 28 Apr 2005 03:32:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 03:32:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 03:27:18 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Greg's 3-ramp SMOT loop runs continuously! Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59497 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Not Greg, but an imposter? Or more likely, you are actually Greg Watson, but you lied on vortex-L years ago about closing the loop on SMOT, and now you don't remember the number of seconds/hours/days that you told us the device ran back then. > However when I finish the single > ramp return device maybe I'll put it on a web cam. > Then you can count the loops yourself ;-) I'd bet money that this won't happen... except my personal rule is to never give money to O/U claimants under any circumstances. See http://amasci.com/freenrg/fnrg.html You claimed success in 1997, with videotape and close friends as eyewitnesses. No evidence was ever posted. Excuses or no, in the free energy biz that's always a big warning sign that something funny is going on. On internet, anyone can *claim* anything. And the alt-science field is full of people who freely lie for any number of reasons. Are you one of these? I strongly suspect that you are. I've been waiting for some sign that you're an honest person, but I've never seen any, ever. I've only seen your messages on internet, and messages cannot be trusted 100%. Where free energy claims are involved, I trust messages on internet 0%, and I strongly suggest that everyone else here does the same. Assume that hoaxes are common. Ask tough questions that expose any possible dishonest shennanigans. (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb at amasci com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 28 06:22:59 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3SDMov9025504; Thu, 28 Apr 2005 06:22:50 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3SDMn2B025495; Thu, 28 Apr 2005 06:22:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 06:22:49 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4270E3A4.30001 pobox.com> Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 09:22:44 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.5) Gecko/20050105 Debian/1.7.5-1 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Greg's msg from 1997: continuous closed-loop SMOT References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <-2MD5C.A.POG.oOOcCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59498 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: William Beaty wrote: >Vortex-L archives have your original message announcing successful >closed-loop operation. And successful rotating-wheel-device operation! >See below. > >To all: while reading this, keep in mind that it all happened eight >years ago and we've yet to see evidence that his devices ever existed. >Keep asking yourself whether it's some well-crafted lies or not. Then >figure out ways to find out for sure. > > Thank you, Bill. Keep in mind that this is straightforward perpetual motion of the first kind; it violates the first law of thermodynanics as well as either (a) the laws of mechanics or (b) the laws of electrodynamics, and it does so at a very simple, fundamental level. Perpetual motion using static magnets. If it were real it would be !!_REVOLUTIONARY_!! and if the inventor has any knowledge of simple physics and/or physical chemistry (which is based on thermo) he must realize that. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 28 06:39:14 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3SDcsv9004521; Thu, 28 Apr 2005 06:38:54 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3SDcpTF004485; Thu, 28 Apr 2005 06:38:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 06:38:51 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Company to Build Space Elevator Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 9:38:45 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050428133845.ZYBH2063.imf18aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: <8wf_1C.A._FB.rdOcCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59499 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: http://cbs2.com/water/watercooler_story_116173449.html Apr 26, 2005 2:13 pm US/Pacific BREMERTON, WA (AP) A company in Washington State wants to send an elevator into space. The LiftPort company says it will open a plant this summer in Millville, New Jersey, to start producing nanotube fibers, which are 60-times stronger than steel. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 28 06:53:07 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3SDqdv9014579; Thu, 28 Apr 2005 06:52:40 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3SDqUVv014458; Thu, 28 Apr 2005 06:52:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 06:52:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Sing the Sun Electric Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 9:52:14 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: <20050428135214.PPB2063.imf18aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59500 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Not everyone believes fusion powers the sun: http://www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/2005/arch05/050427sun.htm "More than 60 years ago, Dr. Charles E. R. Bruce, of the Electrical Research Association in England, offered a new perspective on the Sun. An electrical researcher, astronomer, and expert on the effects of lightning, Bruce proposed in 1944 that the Sun’s "photosphere has the appearance, the temperature and the spectrum of an electric arc; it has arc characteristics because it is an electric arc, or a large number of arcs in parallel." This discharge characteristic, he claimed, "accounts for the observed granulation of the solar surface." Bruce’s model, however, was based on a conventional understanding of atmospheric lightning, allowing him to envision the “electric” Sun without reference to external electric fields." From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 28 07:18:20 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3SEI2v9000762; Thu, 28 Apr 2005 07:18:02 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3SEHxPe000704; Thu, 28 Apr 2005 07:17:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 07:17:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=JDjwOUSqgF1TtqJyuVaAWqN40+tCyNLahno2wGtNLlUdRE4znwikUBGwSA+hduBVuOWGLUC9M4HEeZvCmuIB+iPLyicW+nkYjbR80UlcK8MYmI+3Z2fy/VpvgxehuZf6xz70SQ0KyLPAo8iA0QSclGG918tDNvQm/wzDN2jRHek= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 07:17:46 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: OT: Leaking Pen asked and answered In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <001801c54b2a$b37f4820$22027841 xptower> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j3SEHpv9000497 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59501 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: once again, you have FAILED TO ANSWER THE QUESTION. a statement that is patently false has been made, and no explanation has been given. i toe no party line, and will not argue the shortcomings of many of darwins thoughts. i simply do not like seeing obvious falsehoods about ANYONES work. as for those who supposedly said that its darwin or god, i wonder that they had never heard of lemark, or any of the hundreds of others doing theoretical work into inheritance at the time. it was a virtual cottage industry. i will say this once again, and then i will ignore you. this is a SCIENCE discussion list. you wish a religous debate, join a list designed for religious debate. i can give you a list of those im a part of. youd find my religous beliefs not that far different from yours. but do not dare to presume that you can use religion as ground to attack science, or scientists, or to completely dodge questions by simply attacking the questioner based on your beliefs, and not based on facts. On 4/28/05, thomas malloy wrote: > >please, dont refer to my "teachers". i based my statements off my own > >reading of darwins work. only way to interpret or critique someones > >work is to actually read it yourself. in addition, you assume much, > >that i agree with all darwins theories, that i dont speak other > >languages, the form of my education, ect. dont assume, youve made > >enough of an ass out of yourself already. > > > > Richard and I are unwilling to let your misguided ideas go > unchallenged, Leaking. I realize that you don't see it now, but we're > doing you a favor. I call it the education of Leaking. > > As for your education, you said that you'd been to college. You've > picked up the intellectual establishment's Party Line somewhere. > However, you clearly didn't gain an appreciation for the necessity of > capitalization in freshman English. > > As for Charles Darwin. A program aired last evening on Trinity > Broadcasting System, I assume that you missed it. They quoted a > scientist who lived in the late 19 century. He said that, "we believe > Darwin's hypothesis not because it looks tenable, but because the > alternative is a creator, which is unacceptable." If you read > Parksie's column in last week's What's New, you will notice his > attack on Intelligent Design. He points out that the press ignored > the debate that the I D advocates staged, why am I not surprised? > Parksie said it himself."if you believe in an entity (G-d) who > manipulates DNA, you are terminally ignorant." Hum, well we can't > both be right. The program also pointed out that Darwin believed > white people to be superior to everyone else, and man to be > intellectual superior to women. Wow, the feminist intelligencia would > have a hissy fit over both of those ideas. > > -- "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 28 07:22:40 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3SEMQv9004957; Thu, 28 Apr 2005 07:22:27 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3SEMPaV004934; Thu, 28 Apr 2005 07:22:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 07:22:25 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20050428102053.03df4320 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 10:22:13 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Greg's msg from 1997: continuous closed-loop SMOT In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59502 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: William Beaty wrote: >Vortex-L archives have your original message announcing successful >closed-loop operation. And successful rotating-wheel-device operation! >See below. That is what I love about computers. They never forget! If we ever win the CF wars, all of the stupid comments by harsh opposition skeptics will be preserved for posterity. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 28 07:23:24 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3SENHv9006191; Thu, 28 Apr 2005 07:23:17 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3SENGOl006176; Thu, 28 Apr 2005 07:23:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 07:23:16 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20050428102235.03de85a0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 10:23:06 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: OT: Leaking Pen asked and answered In-Reply-To: References: <001801c54b2a$b37f4820$22027841 xptower> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59503 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: leaking pen wrote: >i will say this once again, and then i will ignore you. this is a >SCIENCE discussion list. you wish a religous debate, join a list >designed for religious debate. Amen. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 28 07:55:23 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3SEt9v9026383; Thu, 28 Apr 2005 07:55:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3SEt7e3026367; Thu, 28 Apr 2005 07:55:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 07:55:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20050428145456.28883.qmail web81110.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 07:54:56 -0700 (PDT) From: Jones Beene Subject: Times: Tabletop Fusion To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59504 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: There is an excellent story in the NY Times (Kenneth Chang) today on the UCLA device, which, although developed in the acoustics lab by sonofusion expert Putterman, is basically just a small deuterium accelerator and ICF target. side note: ...is "putterman" a great name for a sonofusion guy or what? Anyway, the difference between this is and other small neutron accelerators is that *heat* is substituted for *high voltage*... and the results are the same. That is it... in a nutshell. There is a piezo transducer, just as in sonofusion, but it is pretty clear that alternate piezos could work just as well and that the lithium content of the transducer is not active. Electric fields are interesting phenomena when we get below nano-dimensions. When all is said and done, it is becoming mor and more conceivable to me and others that the very same modality here will be found to have been active in some forms of prior LENR work (beyond sonofusion), especially those experiments where neutrons are seen along with that unusual branching ratio where 3He is gound but no 3H. But Putterman is a notorious headline-grabber and possible plagiarist (some have used far harsher descriptors for him) so I doubt he will give proper attribution to any of them. Very intriguing, but of course, even Chang is very careful not to mention "cold fusion" by name .... (that probably was put into his interview agreement by UCLA/Putterman) Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 28 09:35:33 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3SGZKv9020268; Thu, 28 Apr 2005 09:35:21 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3SGZD5p020204; Thu, 28 Apr 2005 09:35:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 09:35:13 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Times: Tabletop Fusion Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 12:37:36 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <20050428145456.28883.qmail web81110.mail.yahoo.com> Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: <7zyt0C.A.o7E.BDRcCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59505 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Jones, Here's some fresh links for ya. http://www.aip.org/pnu/2005/split/729-1.html http://technocrat.net/article.pl?sid=05/04/27/2025254&mode=thread And your link, http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/28/science/28fusion.html? The voltages quoted seem lower than what we were looking at yesterday, 120KV is something you could do in the dentists office. I assume the gradient is what matters more; just as one has a massive gradient at the interfacial layer between electrolyte and metal in an electrolytic cell. But this is hot fusion, or at least stripping. No wonder the yield is so tiny. The first link gives the most detail I have seen short of the Nature article. The girl is making noises about hitting the NYU library today, perhaps I'll impose upon her to copy the article and I'll post a bit more later. The site I posted yesterday is still 'dotted, tell your minions to lay off huh Leaky (grin). But try this later for more info. http://rodan.physics.ucla.edu/pyrofusion/ As you say, this has nothing to do with fusion in the solid state, probably any pyroelectric crystal could be made to do this, although the material choosen has certain physical properties which make it very amenable to this kind of work. Jones writes: >Anyway, the difference between this is and other small >neutron accelerators is that *heat* is substituted for >*high voltage*... and the results are the same. I don't understand you here. The heat is just to get the charge separating on the cystal surface. Mechanical shock would work too, although heating is much easier to control and dimensional stability is maintained. K. -----Original Message----- From: Jones Beene [mailto:jonesb9 pacbell.net] Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2005 10:55 AM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Times: Tabletop Fusion There is an excellent story in the NY Times (Kenneth Chang) today on the UCLA device, which, although developed in the acoustics lab by sonofusion expert Putterman, is basically just a small deuterium accelerator and ICF target. side note: ...is "putterman" a great name for a sonofusion guy or what? Anyway, the difference between this is and other small neutron accelerators is that *heat* is substituted for *high voltage*... and the results are the same. That is it... in a nutshell. There is a piezo transducer, just as in sonofusion, but it is pretty clear that alternate piezos could work just as well and that the lithium content of the transducer is not active. Electric fields are interesting phenomena when we get below nano-dimensions. When all is said and done, it is becoming mor and more conceivable to me and others that the very same modality here will be found to have been active in some forms of prior LENR work (beyond sonofusion), especially those experiments where neutrons are seen along with that unusual branching ratio where 3He is gound but no 3H. But Putterman is a notorious headline-grabber and possible plagiarist (some have used far harsher descriptors for him) so I doubt he will give proper attribution to any of them. Very intriguing, but of course, even Chang is very careful not to mention "cold fusion" by name .... (that probably was put into his interview agreement by UCLA/Putterman) Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 28 10:16:11 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3SHG0v9011347; Thu, 28 Apr 2005 10:16:01 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3SHFvj6011318; Thu, 28 Apr 2005 10:15:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 10:15:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20050428171550.19432.qmail web81107.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 10:15:50 -0700 (PDT) From: Jones Beene Subject: RE: Times: Tabletop Fusion To: knagel gis.net, vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: 6667 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59506 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- Keith, > The voltages quoted seem lower than what we > were looking at yesterday, 120KV is something you > could do in the dentists office. The Farnsworth fusor puts out 10 orders of magnitude more neutrons than this device does, and at only 20-40 kV... BUT it benefits from **spherical convergence** which is a huge advantage for ICF. There is no apparent reason why you couldn't focus numerous small accelerators of this type at a central target however. Now, with **spherical convergence** added into the equation, what we have is beginning to look a lot more like 'normal sonofusion,' no? Could this similarity to sonofusion be part of Putterman's nefarious agenda... you remember, in his recent downplaying of normal sonofusion. This guy could end up being a "bad actor" in terms of intellectual-greed, so to speak... but thanks to the internet his past deeds will likely catch up with him, "sooner rather than later." > I assume the gradient is what matters more; Exactomundo... > just as one has a massive gradient at the interfacial layer > between electrolyte and metal in an electrolytic cell. Yes, that was where I was going with the "similarity". The gradient is massive indeed. > But this is hot fusion, or at least stripping. I think both. > No wonder the yield is so tiny. However, perhaps several times more stripping neutrons may be present than the MeV variety? They are only set-up to look for the high energy variety. Stripping neutrons can be subthermal and only must be discovered by delayed ~15 minute decay. > As you say, this has nothing to do with fusion in > the solid state, probably any pyroelectric crystal > could be made to do this, although the material > chosen has certain physical properties which make it > very amenable to this kind of work. Yes. High induced surface layer polarity seems to be the key, doesn't it? > >Anyway, the difference between this is and other small neutron accelerators is that *heat* is substituted for*high voltage*... and the results are the same. > I don't understand you here. The heat is just to get > the charge separating on the crystal surface. Yes, of course, and that gives the high potential gradient. If there is 1 volt on the surface at one angstrom, and the effective acceleration zone from the piezo vibration is 10 microns then you can have 100,000 volts applied, assuming a perfect quasi-series-circuit, no? > Mechanical shock would work too, although heating is much > easier to control and dimensional stability is maintained. Actually, the best route might be a mechanical ultrasonic vibrator, even a "tweeter" because the the acceleration zone "throw" length could be much longer than a piezo. You would only need to cover the tweeter surface with a postive **electret** for the same effect, no? Then you could do the acceleration at cryogenic temps and have the possible advantage of better coupling due to lower kinetics with the D. If you could provide the acceleration gradient to a D2+ molecule, rather than requiring a true D atom, your beam density could increase enormously, maybe. That would be worth trying... Which brings to mind an old story about Juan Peron, do you know the one ;-) ... just wanted to add a little historical icing for this story, which is beginning to sound rather tasty and dramatic, for a number of reasons.... Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 28 10:17:54 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3SHHWv9012198; Thu, 28 Apr 2005 10:17:33 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3SHHVNA012168; Thu, 28 Apr 2005 10:17:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 10:17:31 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002401c54c16$245292f0$a969c218 hanksblackbox> From: "Hank Scudder" To: Subject: Computers and Religion Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 13:17:22 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0021_01C54BF4.9D161260" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59507 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0021_01C54BF4.9D161260 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jesus and Satan were having an on-going argument about who was better=20 on the computer. They had been going at it for days, and frankly God=20 was tired of hearing all the bickering.=20 Finally fed up, God said, "THAT'S IT! I have had enough. I am going=20 to set up a test that will run for two hours, and from those results,=20 I will judge who does the better job."=20 So Satan and Jesus sat down at the keyboards and typed away.=20 They moused.=20 They faxed.=20 They e-mailed.=20 They downloaded.=20 They did spreadsheets.=20 They wrote reports.=20 They created labels and cards.=20 They created charts and graphs.=20 They did some genealogy reports.=20 They did every job known to man.=20 Jesus worked with heavenly efficiency and Satan was faster than hell.=20 Then, ten minutes before their time was up, lightning suddenly=20 flashed across the sky, thunder rolled, rain poured, and, of course,=20 the power went off. Satan stared at his blank screen and screamed=20 every curseword known in the underworld. Jesus just sighed.=20 Finally the electricity came back on, and each of them restarted=20 their computers.=20 Satan started searching frantically, screaming=20 "It's gone! It's all GONE!=20 "I lost everything when the power went out!"=20 Meanwhile, Jesus quietly started printing out all of his files from=20 the past two hours of work.=20 Satan observed this and became irrate.=20 "Wait!" he screamed.=20 "That's not fair! He cheated!=20 How come he has all his work and I don't have any?"=20 God just shrugged and said,=20 JESUS SAVES=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0021_01C54BF4.9D161260 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 

 

Jesus and Satan were = having an=20 on-going argument about who was better
on the computer. They had = been going=20 at it for days, and frankly God
was tired of hearing all the = bickering.=20

Finally fed up, God said, = "THAT'S=20 IT! I have had enough. I am going
to set up a test that will run for = two=20 hours, and from those results,
I will judge who does the better = job."=20

So=20 Satan and Jesus sat down at the keyboards and typed away. =

They moused. =

They faxed. =

They e-mailed. =

They downloaded. =

They did spreadsheets.=20

They wrote reports.=20

They created labels and = cards.=20

They created charts and = graphs.=20

They did some genealogy = reports.=20

They did every job known = to man.=20

Jesus worked with heavenly = efficiency and Satan was faster than hell.

Then, ten minutes before = their time=20 was up, lightning suddenly

flashed across the sky, = thunder=20 rolled, rain poured, and, of course,

the=20 power went off. Satan stared at his blank screen and screamed =

every curseword known in = the=20 underworld. Jesus just sighed.

Finally the electricity = came back=20 on, and each of them restarted

their computers. =

Satan started searching = frantically,=20 screaming

"It's gone! It's all GONE! =

"I=20 lost everything when the power went out!"

Meanwhile, Jesus quietly = started=20 printing out all of his files from

the=20 past two hours of work.

Satan observed this and = became=20 irrate.

"Wait!" he screamed.=20

"That's not fair! He = cheated!=20

How=20 come he has all his work and I don't have any?"

God=20 just shrugged and said,

JESUS SAVES=20

------=_NextPart_000_0021_01C54BF4.9D161260-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 28 10:40:51 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3SHeWv9024771; Thu, 28 Apr 2005 10:40:32 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3SHeTpo024752; Thu, 28 Apr 2005 10:40:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 10:40:29 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Computers and Religion Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 13:42:49 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <002401c54c16$245292f0$a969c218 hanksblackbox> Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59508 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: But Hank, You're neglecting the key theological issue. Did Jesus or Satan use the Mac? ///////////////////////////////////////////// Some important theological questions are answered if we think of god as a computer programmer. Q: Does God control everything that happens in my life? A: He could, if he used the debugger, but it's tedious to step through all those variables. Q: Why does God allow evil to happen? A: God thought he eliminated evil in one of the earlier revs. Q: Does God know everything? A: He likes to think so, but he is often amazed to find out what goes on in the overnight job. Q: What causes God to intervene in earthly affairs? A: If an critical error occurs, the system pages him automatically and he logs on from home to try to bring it up. Otherwise things can wait until tomorrow. Q: Did God really create the world in seven days? A: He did it in six days and nights while living on cola and candy bars. On the seventh day he went home and found out his girlfriend had left him. Q: How come the Age of Miracles Ended? A: That was the development phase of the project, now we are in the maintenance phase. Q: Will there be another Universe after the Big Bang? A: A lot of people are drawing things on the white board, but personally, God doubts that it will ever be implemented. Q: Who is Satan? A: Satan is an MIS director who takes credit for more powers than he actually possesses, so people who aren't programmers are scared of him. God thinks of him as irritating but irrelevant. Q: What is the role of sinners? A: Sinners are the people who find new an imaginative ways to mess up the system when God has made it idiot-proof. Q: Where will I go after I die? A: Onto a DAT tape. Q: Will I be reincarnated? A: Not unless there is a special need to recreate you. And searching those .tar files is a major hassle, so if there is a request for you, God will just say that the tape has been lost. Q: Am I unique and special in the universe? A: There are over 10,000 major university and corporate sites running exact duplicates of you in the present release version. Q: What is the purpose of the universe? A: God created it because he values elegance and simplicity, but then the users and managers demanded he tack all this senseless stuff onto it and now everything is more complicated and expensive than ever. Q: If I pray to God, will he listen? A: You can waste his time telling him what to do, or you can just get off his back and let him program. Q: What is the one true religion? A: All systems have their advantages and disadvantages, so just pick the one that best suits your needs and don't let anyone put you down. Q: Is God angry that we crucified him? A: Let's just say he's not going to any more meetings if he can help it, because that last one with the twelve managers and the food turned out to be murder. Q: How can I protect myself from evil? A: Change your password every month and don't make it a name, a common word, or a date like your birthday. Q: Some people claim they hear the voice of God. Is this true? A: They are much more likely to receive email. -----Original Message----- From: Hank Scudder [mailto:hscudder nycap.rr.com] Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2005 1:17 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Computers and Religion Jesus and Satan were having an on-going argument about who was better on the computer. They had been going at it for days, and frankly God was tired of hearing all the bickering. Finally fed up, God said, "THAT'S IT! I have had enough. I am going to set up a test that will run for two hours, and from those results, I will judge who does the better job." So Satan and Jesus sat down at the keyboards and typed away. They moused. They faxed. They e-mailed. They downloaded. They did spreadsheets. They wrote reports. They created labels and cards. They created charts and graphs. They did some genealogy reports. They did every job known to man. Jesus worked with heavenly efficiency and Satan was faster than hell. Then, ten minutes before their time was up, lightning suddenly flashed across the sky, thunder rolled, rain poured, and, of course, the power went off. Satan stared at his blank screen and screamed every curseword known in the underworld. Jesus just sighed. Finally the electricity came back on, and each of them restarted their computers. Satan started searching frantically, screaming "It's gone! It's all GONE! "I lost everything when the power went out!" Meanwhile, Jesus quietly started printing out all of his files from the past two hours of work. Satan observed this and became irrate. "Wait!" he screamed. "That's not fair! He cheated! How come he has all his work and I don't have any?" God just shrugged and said, JESUS SAVES From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 28 11:11:39 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3SIBOv9006142; Thu, 28 Apr 2005 11:11:25 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3SIBNNT006130; Thu, 28 Apr 2005 11:11:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 11:11:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: RE: Computers and Religion Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 14:11:16 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050428181116.NHCD2063.imf18aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59509 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > > From: "Keith Nagel" > Date: 2005/04/28 Thu PM 01:42:49 EDT > To: > Subject: RE: Computers and Religion > > But Hank, > > You're neglecting the key theological issue. > > Did Jesus or Satan use the Mac? Uh, you can look at the Mac logo and ask that question? Jesus saves souls . . . and trades them in for valuable prizes! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 28 11:32:50 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3SIWcv9019182; Thu, 28 Apr 2005 11:32:39 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3SIWY85019143; Thu, 28 Apr 2005 11:32:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 11:32:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <41djhm$q4bngl mxip10a.cluster1.charter.net> X-Ironport-AV: i="3.92,136,1112587200"; d="scan'208"; a="876994069:sNHT39089426" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.12 (webedge20-101-197-20030912) From: To: CC: Subject: OT: Exploding Toads Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 18:32:20 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59510 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Not that this topic is likely to have anything to do with "CF", "OU", "LENR" or other kool vortexian acronyms... Never the less, I just couldn't help sharing it with all of you: I give you: Exploding TOADS http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7654561/?GT1=6428 spontaneous toadie combustion? Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 28 11:33:46 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3SIXWv9019731; Thu, 28 Apr 2005 11:33:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3SIXUlJ019702; Thu, 28 Apr 2005 11:33:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 11:33:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20050428143118.03dfb2a0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 14:33:15 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Savvatimova paper uploaded Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59511 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: See: http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/Savvatimovresultsofa.pdf This may need some additional editing. If anyone here finds a mistake in it, please let me know toot-sweet, as they say in the South of France. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 28 12:01:06 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3SJ0kv9031259; Thu, 28 Apr 2005 12:00:51 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3SJ0jbK031236; Thu, 28 Apr 2005 12:00:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 12:00:45 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: RE: Computers and Religion Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 15:02:53 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <20050428181116.NHCD2063.imf18aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: <6GotU.A.6nH.cLTcCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59512 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry, I'm searching without results for the "think different" ad with Anton LaVey. You know the one, you animal... Can you work your linking magic???? It's gotta be out there somewhere. K. -----Original Message----- From: Terry Blanton [mailto:commengr bellsouth.net] Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2005 2:11 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: RE: Computers and Religion > > From: "Keith Nagel" > Date: 2005/04/28 Thu PM 01:42:49 EDT > To: > Subject: RE: Computers and Religion > > But Hank, > > You're neglecting the key theological issue. > > Did Jesus or Satan use the Mac? Uh, you can look at the Mac logo and ask that question? Jesus saves souls . . . and trades them in for valuable prizes! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 28 12:02:34 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3SJ2Iv9031855; Thu, 28 Apr 2005 12:02:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3SJ2Ftn031822; Thu, 28 Apr 2005 12:02:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 12:02:15 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: Times: Tabletop Fusion X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: ID = 909b8a8ff0cae19159d456a4b333f05c Reply-To: michael.foster excite.com From: "Michael Foster" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: michael.foster excite.com X-Mailer: PHP Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050428190205.B296F3E5A xprdmailfe11.nwk.excite.com> Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 15:02:05 -0400 (EDT) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59513 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Am I missing something? What is the advantage of using the pyroelectric crystal as a high voltage source over some other more conventional power supply? M. _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 28 12:22:25 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3SJMDv9007397; Thu, 28 Apr 2005 12:22:14 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3SJMB0f007374; Thu, 28 Apr 2005 12:22:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 12:22:11 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: "Vortex" Subject: RE: Times: Tabletop Fusion Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 15:24:18 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <20050428190205.B296F3E5A xprdmailfe11.nwk.excite.com> Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59514 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Michael, About 50 pounds of iron, and a wall outlet. You could warm the pyroelectric crystal with your hands and generate neutrons. But there is no new physics here, sadly. You are not missing anything. K. -----Original Message----- From: Michael Foster [mailto:michael.foster excite.com] Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2005 3:02 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: Times: Tabletop Fusion Am I missing something? What is the advantage of using the pyroelectric crystal as a high voltage source over some other more conventional power supply? M. _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 28 13:37:06 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3SKaav9020852; Thu, 28 Apr 2005 13:36:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3SKaY9k020835; Thu, 28 Apr 2005 13:36:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 13:36:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=fgE4KE/14ra4NpyXEKP1DyKrvhfgWIxHFK3hDK9sTZh5KFQM+YiSMnj/Ny16hkawEwTFTDoInaQkG/mGVs1+J0SdH+naLAE87jQhmnSLtx/IbcMc3OwMU+1Su4Wk5ZD2HtXe1yQojHIg6gi49ZlMMT/G703aqYQZ4+0fskfRVxw= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 13:36:27 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: OT: Leaking Pen asked and answered In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.2.20050428102235.03de85a0 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <001801c54b2a$b37f4820$22027841 xptower> <6.0.3.0.2.20050428102235.03de85a0 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j3SKaWv9020780 Resent-Message-ID: <7mVwDC.A.eFF.SlUcCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59515 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: am i the only one laughing at the irony of that statement? /looking up irony to be sure it was in fact ironic. still not sure. On 4/28/05, Jed Rothwell wrote: > leaking pen wrote: > > >i will say this once again, and then i will ignore you. this is a > >SCIENCE discussion list. you wish a religous debate, join a list > >designed for religious debate. > > Amen. > > - Jed > > -- "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 28 13:54:49 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3SKscv9032528; Thu, 28 Apr 2005 13:54:38 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3SKsaDq032508; Thu, 28 Apr 2005 13:54:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 13:54:36 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=H8P0yEo/N2zOu9sNEoJ/r1ld20ZsKymrQ5oUXYWNPJkQmFLIc1dOdhwpgAdw9BGGE9+8pw+TrDJIjBojJT/RiuIrkgc6g+en1nZ3MA55cK0fR5OIpwytX7FMEZ3unWPdmRL851AhW+/tcbOCXYo0PFChveDqiNY2lN/nI3w2bNU= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 13:54:22 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: RE: Computers and Religion In-Reply-To: <20050428181116.NHCD2063.imf18aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <20050428181116.NHCD2063.imf18aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j3SKsRv9032407 Resent-Message-ID: <1CFgy.A.47H.M2UcCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59516 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: but, as a son of adam and eve in part, would jesus not also hold some aspect of original sin? in fact, his creation would never have been neccesary if not for that bite from the fruit of knowledge of good and evil, yes no? (which, btw, was a fig, not an apple) so why not the mac? /jesus loves you /the rest of us think you're an asshole. On 4/28/05, Terry Blanton wrote: > > > > > From: "Keith Nagel" > > Date: 2005/04/28 Thu PM 01:42:49 EDT > > To: > > Subject: RE: Computers and Religion > > > > But Hank, > > > > You're neglecting the key theological issue. > > > > Did Jesus or Satan use the Mac? > > Uh, you can look at the Mac logo and ask that question? > > Jesus saves souls . . . > and trades them in for valuable prizes! > > -- "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 28 14:06:28 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3SL6Hv9005386; Thu, 28 Apr 2005 14:06:18 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3SL6Hpg005377; Thu, 28 Apr 2005 14:06:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 14:06:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42715046.1060609 pobox.com> Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 17:06:14 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.5) Gecko/20050105 Debian/1.7.5-1 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Computers and Religion References: <20050428181116.NHCD2063.imf18aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59517 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: leaking pen wrote: >but, as a son of adam and eve in part, would jesus not also hold some >aspect of original sin? in fact, his creation would never have been >neccesary if not for that bite from the fruit of knowledge of good and >evil, yes no? > No. Check out the Nicene Creed. Jesus was begotten, not made, and he was/is of one substance with the father. I could go on (the Nicene Creed sure does, it's the Energizer Bunny of creeds) but, as Jed says, Amen to this being a science list... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 28 14:13:23 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3SLDDv9007845; Thu, 28 Apr 2005 14:13:13 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3SLDBjd007823; Thu, 28 Apr 2005 14:13:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 14:13:11 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=ReYbbJPLPmti4/aB9gNCWDMAvg/Cvzsvd3qsGYK4aqaY8bwSB+LsHHQlqtrwuejpx15pP2/kB6625nPwRD1bKgWst82K44Pf9Gkg5Wb/pkox7AR/q0D0t38Vusx8HBY7Zy7OfsL2TS4gpzekaePeOUZeVNkJCrz48NOq+whWzVk= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 14:12:58 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Computers and Religion In-Reply-To: <42715046.1060609 pobox.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <20050428181116.NHCD2063.imf18aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> <42715046.1060609 pobox.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j3SLD9v9007758 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59518 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: yeah, well, this is a topic for humor and a bit ot, so hey. /didnt know that though. makes one wonder, then mary wasnt really the mother of christ. wait... nicean... yeah, constantine can go jump in a lake. On 4/28/05, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > > > leaking pen wrote: > > >but, as a son of adam and eve in part, would jesus not also hold some > >aspect of original sin? in fact, his creation would never have been > >neccesary if not for that bite from the fruit of knowledge of good and > >evil, yes no? > > > No. Check out the Nicene Creed. Jesus was begotten, not made, and he > was/is of one substance with the father. I could go on (the Nicene > Creed sure does, it's the Energizer Bunny of creeds) but, as Jed says, > Amen to this being a science list... > > -- "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 28 15:35:16 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3SMYsv9021423; Thu, 28 Apr 2005 15:34:54 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3SMYrmA021413; Thu, 28 Apr 2005 15:34:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 15:34:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: Times: Tabletop Fusion X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: ID = 909b8a8ff0cae19159d456a4b333f05c Reply-To: michael.foster excite.com From: "Michael Foster" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: michael.foster excite.com X-Mailer: PHP Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050428223443.EE1693DDA xprdmailfe11.nwk.excite.com> Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 18:34:43 -0400 (EDT) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59519 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hello Keith, Well yes, but I don't think it would take anywhere near 50lbs of power supply to reach the tiny currents generated by lithium tantalate. For that matter, why not just use the PZT from one of those gas flame lighters. PZT is a slightly better pyroelectric, no? And besides, why not just go piezoelectric, tap the PZT and get a really nice burst of neutrons? Frankly, I just don't get this whole news release. Here's a guy getting fairly major publicity for accomplishing nearly nothing, while people doing major research on CF can't get arrested. The only thing that I can see that attracts any attention is the "cuteness factor" of using a pyroelectric. M. (the invisible man) Keith wrote: > About 50 pounds of iron, and a wall outlet. > You could warm the pyroelectric crystal with your > hands and generate neutrons. > But there is no new physics here, sadly. You are > not missing anything. > K. >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Michael Foster [mailto:michael.foster excite.com] >> Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2005 3:02 PM >> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: Times: Tabletop Fusion >> Am I missing something? What is the advantage of >> using the pyroelectric crystal as a high voltage >> source over some other more conventional power >> supply? >> M. _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 28 16:16:25 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3SNGAv9007725; Thu, 28 Apr 2005 16:16:10 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3SNG7T2007698; Thu, 28 Apr 2005 16:16:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 16:16:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <00a001c54c48$3a47afa0$a4b1e118 D54BYG11> Reply-To: "John Coviello" From: "John Coviello" To: "Vortex" Subject: More Taleyarkhan and Lahey Sonofusion Results Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 19:15:54 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_009D_01C54C26.B2C5E8B0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-SpamScore: s X-MailScanner-From: johnwc patmedia.net Resent-Message-ID: <95oljC.A.O4B.26WcCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59520 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_009D_01C54C26.B2C5E8B0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Looks like Taleyarkhan and Lahey are coming through with additional peer = reviewed proof that so many seemed sure they would never be able to = provide. =20 In the May 2005 issue of IEEE Spectrum, they discuss their latest = experiments in detail and also explain how they plan to turn their = tabletop apparatus into a full-scale electricity-generating device. "If = this proves possible--and it's still a big 'if'--sonofusion could become = a revolutionary new energy source," they write. There are five independent replication experiments and variations on = their experiment from other peer review teams going on at the moment.=20 They also say that other groups may soon have new findings to confirm = that sonofusion works. "Now at least five groups--three in the United = States and two in Europe--are working on reproducing our sonofusion = results," they write. "Some have apparently already succeeded and are = now preparing to publish their findings." More at:=20 http://www.newswise.com/articl=ADes/view/511337/?sc=3Drssn=20 ------=_NextPart_000_009D_01C54C26.B2C5E8B0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Looks like Taleyarkhan and Lahey are = coming through=20 with additional peer reviewed proof that so many seemed sure they would = never be=20 able to provide. 
 
In the May 2005 issue of IEEE Spectrum, = they=20 discuss their latest experiments in detail and also explain how they = plan to=20 turn their tabletop apparatus into a full-scale electricity-generating=20 device.  "If this proves possible--and it's still a big = 'if'--sonofusion=20 could become a revolutionary new energy source," they=20 write.
There are five = independent replication=20 experiments and variations on their experiment from other peer = review teams=20 going on at the moment.
 
They also say that = other groups=20 may soon have new findings to confirm that sonofusion works. "Now at = least five=20 groups--three in the United States and two in Europe--are working on = reproducing=20 our sonofusion results," they write. "Some have apparently already = succeeded and=20 are now preparing to publish their findings."

More at:

http://www.newswise.com/articl­es/view/511337/?sc=3Dr= ssn=20


------=_NextPart_000_009D_01C54C26.B2C5E8B0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 28 16:27:23 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3SNR9v9010981; Thu, 28 Apr 2005 16:27:10 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3SNR79G010960; Thu, 28 Apr 2005 16:27:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 16:27:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: "Vortex" Subject: RE: Times: Tabletop Fusion Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 19:29:20 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <20050428223443.EE1693DDA xprdmailfe11.nwk.excite.com> Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: <46cn2B.A.MrC.LFXcCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59521 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hey Mike, Good point; it's just that I was staring at an old x-ray xformer when I posted that's about 100KV or so; even my solid state 50KV Glassman is kinda hefty, but as you say it's the current that adds the bulk. I do sort of regret buying that old boat anchor; but you know sometimes you just can't resist.... Sure you could prolly use a piezo crystal, I have a bunch of scavenged units from lighters that I use occasionally for things like triggered spark gaps. I seem to remember measuring them into a couple of pF load at 10KV or so. But the pyroelectric effect is much more amenable to engineering, especially in a sealed chamber as would be ideal for this experiment. Puttermans device has real engineering application as a neutron source, that's what's important. Cheap, reliable, and easy to control. As to the press? Big mouths get big press, simple enough. Remember, CF doesn't exist, so you'd basically have to blow something up with it to get any attention. Don't underestimate the power of belief to block direct observation, as you can plainly see from certain recent list postings.... Say, women over 40 complain of your invisibility problem all the time. "I just don't understand it, when I was 20 cars would drive into fire hydrants when I jaywalked, now people walk right over me without pause" *grin* K. -----Original Message----- From: Michael Foster [mailto:michael.foster excite.com] Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2005 6:35 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: Times: Tabletop Fusion Hello Keith, Well yes, but I don't think it would take anywhere near 50lbs of power supply to reach the tiny currents generated by lithium tantalate. For that matter, why not just use the PZT from one of those gas flame lighters. PZT is a slightly better pyroelectric, no? And besides, why not just go piezoelectric, tap the PZT and get a really nice burst of neutrons? Frankly, I just don't get this whole news release. Here's a guy getting fairly major publicity for accomplishing nearly nothing, while people doing major research on CF can't get arrested. The only thing that I can see that attracts any attention is the "cuteness factor" of using a pyroelectric. M. (the invisible man) Keith wrote: > About 50 pounds of iron, and a wall outlet. > You could warm the pyroelectric crystal with your > hands and generate neutrons. > But there is no new physics here, sadly. You are > not missing anything. > K. >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Michael Foster [mailto:michael.foster excite.com] >> Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2005 3:02 PM >> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: Times: Tabletop Fusion >> Am I missing something? What is the advantage of >> using the pyroelectric crystal as a high voltage >> source over some other more conventional power >> supply? >> M. _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 28 17:20:55 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3T0Kiv9003785; Thu, 28 Apr 2005 17:20:44 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3T0Kggc003764; Thu, 28 Apr 2005 17:20:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 17:20:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20050429002031.58188.qmail web42101.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 10:20:31 +1000 (EST) From: Prometheus Effect Subject: Re: Greg's msg from 1997: continuous closed-loop SMOT To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: 6667 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <7Baam.A.t6.Z3XcCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59522 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --- Jed Rothwell wrote: > William Beaty wrote: > > That is what I love about computers. They never > forget! If we ever win the > CF wars, all of the stupid comments by harsh > opposition skeptics will be > preserved for posterity. Hi Jed, You once posted me a copy of the SMOT review Chris Tinsley did for IE. Could you please do that again? I would like to review it and post a few comments. By the way, can you provide the mailing address for IE so I can ship the two SMOT kits and the new KE measurement system IE which were ordered? Thanks, Greg Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies. http://au.movies.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 28 17:28:55 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3T0Siv9007922; Thu, 28 Apr 2005 17:28:45 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3T0Sg0L007897; Thu, 28 Apr 2005 17:28:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 17:28:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <00d401c54c52$3c18ba90$a4b1e118 D54BYG11> Reply-To: "John Coviello" From: "John Coviello" To: "Vortex" Subject: Taleyarkhan and Lahey in the May 2005 Issue of IEEE Spectrum Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 20:27:32 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00D1_01C54C30.B48FEEC0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-SpamScore: s X-MailScanner-From: johnwc patmedia.net Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59523 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00D1_01C54C30.B48FEEC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In the May 2005 issue of IEEE Spectrum, Taleyarkhan and Lahey discuss = their latest experiments in detail and also explain how they plan to = turn their tabletop apparatus into a full-scale electricity-generating = device. "If this proves possible--and it's still a big 'if'--sonofusion = could become a revolutionary new energy source," they write. They also say that other groups may soon have new findings to confirm = that sonofusion works. "Now at least five groups--three in the United = States and two in Europe--are working on reproducing our sonofusion = results," they write. "Some have apparently already succeeded and are = now preparing to publish their findings." More at:=20 http://www.newswise.com/articl=ADes/view/511337/?sc=3Drssn ------=_NextPart_000_00D1_01C54C30.B48FEEC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In the May 2005 issue of IEEE Spectrum, = Taleyarkhan and=20 Lahey discuss their latest experiments in detail and also explain how = they plan=20 to turn their tabletop apparatus into a full-scale = electricity-generating=20 device.  "If this proves possible--and it's still a big = 'if'--sonofusion=20 could become a revolutionary new energy source," they = write.
 
They also say that other groups may soon have = new findings=20 to confirm that sonofusion works. "Now at least five groups--three in = the United=20 States and two in Europe--are working on reproducing our sonofusion = results,"=20 they write. "Some have apparently already succeeded and are now = preparing to=20 publish their findings."
 ------=_NextPart_000_00D1_01C54C30.B48FEEC0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 28 18:21:44 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3T1LXv9029444; Thu, 28 Apr 2005 18:21:34 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3T1LV9R029430; Thu, 28 Apr 2005 18:21:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 18:21:31 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20050428182603.019dba98 mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Sender: steven newenergytimes.com@mail.newenergytimes.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 18:28:25 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: RE: Times: Tabletop Fusion In-Reply-To: <20050428171550.19432.qmail web81107.mail.yahoo.com> References: <6667> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59524 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > >Could this similarity to sonofusion be part of >Putterman's nefarious agenda... you remember, in his >recent downplaying of normal sonofusion. This guy >could end up being a "bad actor" in terms of >intellectual-greed, so to speak... but thanks to the >internet his past deeds will likely catch up with him, >"sooner rather than later." Jones, I'm on it. I smell some bad fish and I think its close by here in LA. The BBC Horizon ploy was disgusting. Please feel free to (privately) send me any other leads. Steve From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 28 19:39:12 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3T2cfv9029611; Thu, 28 Apr 2005 19:38:42 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3T2caNG029550; Thu, 28 Apr 2005 19:38:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 19:38:36 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20050428193511.019b4ca8 mail.newenergytimes.com> X-Sender: steven newenergytimes.com@mail.newenergytimes.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 19:45:22 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: The Economist: "Cold fusion - Honest!" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_209394765==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59525 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_209394765==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed This is hilarious... The Economist article is titled: "Cold fusion - Honest!" I haven't seen the Science article yet, but the title looks like it too, is relating the story to cold fusion. The UCLA team should have given their work a nifty name like "Crystal Fusion" to give the press something to latch onto. Oops. Too late for that. I In 1989 the press needed a label and they misapplied Jones work to F&P's. Voila - the birth of "Cold fusion." Now some of them don't know what to call the UCLA work. I guess "cold fusion" will do. Deja vu. s >Tabletop >Accelerator Breaks 'Cold Fusion' Jinx But Won't Yield >... >Science Magazine (subscription) - USA >A crystal with a strange property is at the heart of a clever method for >inducing nuclear fusion in a tabletop-sized device. The ... > >Cold >fusion >Economist - UK >PHYSICISTS who meddle with cold fusion, like psychologists who dabble in >the paranormal, are likely to be labelled quacks by their peers. ... --=====================_209394765==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" This is hilarious...

The Economist article is titled:  "Cold fusion - Honest!"

I haven't seen the Science article yet, but the title looks like it too, is relating the story to cold fusion.

The UCLA team should have given their work a nifty name like "Crystal Fusion" to give the press something to latch onto.  Oops. Too late for that. I

In 1989 the press needed a label and they misapplied Jones work to F&P's. Voila - the birth of "Cold fusion."

Now some of them don't know what to call the UCLA work. I guess "cold fusion" will do.  Deja vu.

s




Tabletop Accelerator Breaks 'Cold Fusion' Jinx But Won't Yield ...
Science Magazine (subscription) - USA
A crystal with a strange property is at the heart of a clever method for inducing nuclear fusion in a tabletop-sized device. The ...

Cold fusion
Economist - UK
PHYSICISTS who meddle with cold fusion, like psychologists who dabble in the paranormal, are likely to be labelled quacks by their peers. ...

--=====================_209394765==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 28 19:42:04 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3T2frv9031065; Thu, 28 Apr 2005 19:41:53 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3T2fpRE031041; Thu, 28 Apr 2005 19:41:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 19:41:51 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20050428135214.PPB2063.imf18aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> References: <20050428135214.PPB2063.imf18aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 21:42:31 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: Sing the Sun Electric Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59526 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton posted; >Not everyone believes fusion powers the sun: Excellent post Terry. I have a neighbor, John T Nordberg, www.grandunification.com , well he lives in the western burbs, who has the intention to create a "light ball", in a metallic container. If I see a bright flash coming from the south west, I'll know what happened. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 28 20:40:44 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3T3eWv9021112; Thu, 28 Apr 2005 20:40:32 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3T3eVfl021090; Thu, 28 Apr 2005 20:40:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 20:40:31 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <004601c54c6d$29e38510$c5017841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Spiral helixes Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 22:40:17 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0042_01C54C43.4080F480" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-100.0 required=4.0 tests=HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: <1RUfUD.A.eJF.uyacCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59527 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0042_01C54C43.4080F480 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0043_01C54C43.4080F480" ------=_NextPart_001_0043_01C54C43.4080F480 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankObserving the vortex produced in a clear plexiglas tank of water by = a high speed rotating member facing down with a clockwise rotation I = notice the cone of the vortex is at the surface and counterclockwise = due to the vortex curling 180 degrees from the face of the rotating = member up to the surface. The diameter of the vortex remains near = constant until it approaches the water surface when it expands to the = familar parabolic form. a measured amount of air can be induced at the = member due to vacuum. The air allows the many shed vortices to become = visible in the water that move in many directions.=20 A water vortex is made up of many spirals some of which appear to be = flowing opposite from the main bands. These spirals remind me of a model of a DNA molecule.. hmmm. Reading a recent research paper where light was " frozen" reminds me of = what happens when a water vortex is disturbed.. it collapses. Thinking of the frozen light experiment, I try to imagine what is taking = place. I have considered the event may be similar to impinging on a = water vortex... " IF" light is actually in spiral helix form and = interrupting ( impinging) the helix may be what causes the light to = freeze. If light is actually composed of 3 components it could better = explain why sunlight can heat a surface after traveling the distance = through space at near absolute zero temperature. The water vortex may reveal one of the " capacitor" properties of water. = If water and light have 3 components and are spiral helix in form there = may be a way to " interrupt or impinge on one of the bands to " = trigger" the capacitor. Looking at Ecclesiastes 4;12 I read a sentence made by the Teacher.. " a = cord of three strands is not quickly broken". may offer a clue. Some of the most unseeming comments expressed in this group have led to = stimulation of thought which is the real worth of=20 the VortexL. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0043_01C54C43.4080F480 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Observing the vortex produced in a clear plexiglas tank of water by = a high=20 speed rotating member facing down with a clockwise rotation I notice the = cone of=20 the vortex is at the surface and counterclockwise  due to the = vortex=20 curling 180 degrees from the face of  the rotating member up to the = surface. The diameter of the vortex remains near constant until it = approaches=20 the water surface when it expands to the familar parabolic form. a = measured=20 amount of air can be induced at the member due to vacuum. The air allows = the=20 many shed vortices to become visible in the water that move in many = directions.=20
 
A water vortex is made up of many spirals some of which = appear to=20 be flowing opposite from the main bands.
These spirals remind me of a model of a DNA molecule.. = hmmm.
 
Reading a recent research paper where light was "=20 frozen" reminds me of what happens when a water vortex is = disturbed.. it=20 collapses.
Thinking of the frozen light experiment, I try to imagine what is = taking=20 place. I have considered the event may be similar to impinging = on  a water vortex... " IF" light is actually in spiral helix form = and=20 interrupting ( impinging) the helix may be what causes = the light=20 to freeze. If light is actually composed of 3 components it could better = explain=20 why sunlight can heat a surface after traveling the distance through = space at=20 near absolute zero temperature.
 
The water vortex may reveal one of the " capacitor" properties of = water. If=20 water and light have 3 components and are spiral helix=20 in form  there may be a way to " interrupt or impinge = on one=20 of the bands  to " trigger" the capacitor.
Looking at Ecclesiastes 4;12 I read a sentence made by the = Teacher.. "=20 a cord of three strands is not quickly broken".
 may offer a clue.
 
Some of the most unseeming comments expressed in this group = have led=20 to stimulation of thought which is the real worth of
the VortexL.
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_0043_01C54C43.4080F480-- ------=_NextPart_000_0042_01C54C43.4080F480 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <004101c54c6d$294ac780$c5017841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0042_01C54C43.4080F480-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 28 20:55:25 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3T3sxna027902; Thu, 28 Apr 2005 20:54:59 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3T3sqBs027801; Thu, 28 Apr 2005 20:54:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 20:54:52 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: "Vortex" Subject: OT : Social Insecurity Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 23:57:10 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59528 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mr. Bush on Social Security...tonite. ///// Mr Bush sez: In a reformed Social System, voluntary personal retirement accounts would offer workers a number of investment options that are simple and easy to understand. I know some Americans have reservations about investing in the stock market, so I propose that one investment option consist entirely of TREASURY BONDS, which are backed by the full faith and credit of the United States government. Options like this will make voluntary personal retirement accounts a safer investment. ///// Mr Bush continues... Now, it's very important for our fellow citizens to understand there is not a bank account here in Washington, D.C., where we take your payroll taxes and hold it for you and then give it back to you when you retire. Our system is called pay as you go. You pay into the system through your payroll taxes and the government spends it. It spends the money on the current retirees and with the money left over, it funds other government programs. And all that's left behind is file cabinets full of IOUs. ////// Hmmmmm.... IOUs? What are those? Sounds risky... >From the US government site Social Security Online http://www.ssa.gov/qa.htm Social Security is largely a "pay-as-you-go" system with today's taxpayers paying for the benefits of today's retirees. Money not needed to pay today's benefits is invested in special-issue TREASURY BONDS. ////// Oh, so those IOU's are TREASURY BONDS. How about that. Comments? K. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 28 21:44:20 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3T4i7na017796; Thu, 28 Apr 2005 21:44:08 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3T4i6bf017771; Thu, 28 Apr 2005 21:44:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 21:44:06 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=s/7eue89QnI0DZp8vwWF/Kgkh9YT2bWR8VunAA5iXPn40e4rBHGjE0pvo4/K92j8mln/ezPQvIR8BHr3rni4Vjcggjn3Eo8/7oniYkfQKfELjfr9pU1BIWimBqNPcJveYjBN3uXTv3GbGSepVOJgheodFmRmuCHM6eeMlL3bCmQ= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 21:43:55 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Sing the Sun Electric In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <20050428135214.PPB2063.imf18aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j3T4hxna017704 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59529 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: well, ive made ball lightning in a glass before (see bills wonderful website) but in metal? On 4/28/05, thomas malloy wrote: > Terry Blanton posted; > > >Not everyone believes fusion powers the sun: > > Excellent post Terry. I have a neighbor, John T Nordberg, > www.grandunification.com , well he lives in the western burbs, who > has the intention to create a "light ball", in a metallic container. > > If I see a bright flash coming from the south west, I'll know what happened. > > -- "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 28 23:06:07 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3T65oT8014822; Thu, 28 Apr 2005 23:05:54 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3T65ncq014809; Thu, 28 Apr 2005 23:05:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 23:05:49 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "John Steck" To: Subject: RE: Sing the Sun Electric Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 01:08:33 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 In-Reply-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59530 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Your neighbor may be interested in: http://jlnlabs.imars.com/plasma/index.htm -john -----Original Message----- From: thomas malloy [mailto:temalloy metro.lakes.com] Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2005 9:43 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Sing the Sun Electric Terry Blanton posted; >Not everyone believes fusion powers the sun: Excellent post Terry. I have a neighbor, John T Nordberg, www.grandunification.com , well he lives in the western burbs, who has the intention to create a "light ball", in a metallic container. If I see a bright flash coming from the south west, I'll know what happened. -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.10.4 - Release Date: 05/04/27 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 29 05:18:42 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3TCIPGQ022946; Fri, 29 Apr 2005 05:18:25 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3TCIMl6022927; Fri, 29 Apr 2005 05:18:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 05:18:22 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=E+aNO/IZDnLqGS6/y2QvL7To6spIT4KvL27fcVoOHfqs4T9pAs+777WQ8t3XQXYT; Message-ID: <410-220054529111747970 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Magnetically Aligned Electrolysis Cathodes Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 06:17:48 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940932524c4f9e68a7e22eae6e91be57387350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.117.70 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59532 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII The Coulomb Barrier is a 1/R^2 repulsive electrostatic force between nucleons that can be "tunneled" when the 1/R^4 attractive magnetic (Strong Force) exceeds it. Normally the random orientation/agitation of the nucleons of an atom precludes any such tunneling except perhaps by chance. OTOH, if the nucleons are forced to align in a strong magnetic field so that the Relativistic Electrodynamic Effect of convergence of like-charge-like spin particle beams at near-c velocity, it may be possible to effect controlled coulomb barrier tunneling. This gives one pause to wonder if "sandwiching" a sheet of Palladium between two ring magnets would increase the yield of CF heat from it if used as an electrolysis cathodes? The Neodymium Ring-Shape super magnets are available from Indigo: http://www.indigo.com/magnets/gphmgnts/metric-neodymium-rare-earth-magnets.html My on-hand stash consists of 10 ea. 25 mm O.D and 10 ea. 10 mm O.D. ring super magnets that are a bear to separate if they come together. Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

The Coulomb Barrier is a 1/R^2 repulsive electrostatic force between nucleons that
can be "tunneled" when the 1/R^4  attractive magnetic (Strong Force) exceeds it.
Normally the random orientation/agitation of the nucleons of an atom precludes any
such tunneling except perhaps by chance.
OTOH, if the nucleons are forced to align in a strong magnetic field so that the Relativistic Electrodynamic Effect of convergence of like-charge-like spin particle beams at near-c velocity, it may be possible to effect controlled coulomb barrier tunneling.
 
This gives one pause to wonder if "sandwiching" a sheet of Palladium between two ring
magnets would increase the yield of CF heat from it if used as an electrolysis cathodes?
 
The Neodymium Ring-Shape super magnets are available from Indigo:
 
 
My on-hand stash consists of 10 ea. 25 mm O.D and 10 ea.  10 mm O.D. ring super magnets
that are a bear to separate if they come together.
 
Frederick
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 29 05:46:59 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3TCkiGQ001454; Fri, 29 Apr 2005 05:46:48 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3TCkhw1001420; Fri, 29 Apr 2005 05:46:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 05:46:43 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42722CA9.5030709 pobox.com> Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 08:46:33 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.5) Gecko/20050105 Debian/1.7.5-1 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Reqest for Prometheus Effect verifiers References: <20050429092237.89317.qmail web42110.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20050429092237.89317.qmail web42110.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59533 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Prometheus Effect wrote: >Guys, > >I would like to enlist the aid of some of the members >of the OU / Free Energy community to independently >verify the **virtually** no magnetic dragback > Emphasis added. Our daily mundane experience is almost entirely limited to processes in which friction and other losses play a large role. Aristotle, IIRC, asserted that objects acted on by no force tend to _stop_, and for an awfully long time everyone agreed with that, because it's exactly what we normally observe. On the other hand, weak static magnetic fields acting on slow-moving ferromagnetic objects are practically lossless (if we ignore eddy currents which are very small in such circumstances, but which provide something like viscous damping). Steel balls on metal tracks can role with (almost) no friction, in practical terms. The combination can appear quite startling to the eye of one not used to observing conservation of energy in action. Given an aparatus made of hard dense objects rolling with almost no friction, combined with the action of magnetic fields, it's very easy to fool yourself into thinking there's a source of energy someplace. That "VIRTUALLY no dragback" phrase up there says it all: You've got an entrance path with a high potential energy gradient and consequently large (macroscopic) magnetic force, and an exit path with a small potential energy gradient and consequently small magnetic force. But the force is _not_ ZERO on the exit path; you said so yourself! It's just _smaller_ than the entrance force. But your exit path is longer than your entrance path, isn't it? Consequently the magnitude of the product of the force times the distance is actually the same on the two paths. CLOSE THE LOOP and you've proved this is wrong. Close the loop, and you've got something you can show to anyone to prove your case; you'll get your name in the paper and you'll get a Nobel prize and it doesn't matter how much energy you get out, just so long as it's positive. If you can't close the loop -- and your email makes it obvious that you can't -- then this is a load of c**p and there's no point in anyone wasting any additional time or money on attempting to "verify" it. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 29 05:57:06 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3TCurGQ006204; Fri, 29 Apr 2005 05:56:53 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3TCupxa006181; Fri, 29 Apr 2005 05:56:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 05:56:51 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: <84965765-063d-4032-b775-9556a47bf71e> Message-ID: <0ff901c54cba$df47f470$7845ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <20050429092237.89317.qmail web42110.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Reqest for Prometheus Effect verifiers Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 08:33:46 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59534 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: And what about those who paid for the original SMOT kit, never got it, and did not ask for money back? Like me? Mike Carrell ------------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: "Prometheus Effect" To: "Vortex" ; "FreeEnergy" ; "Prometheus Effect Group" Sent: Friday, April 29, 2005 5:22 AM Subject: Reqest for Prometheus Effect verifiers > Guys, > > I would like to enlist the aid of some of the members > of the OU / Free Energy community to independently > verify the virtually no magnetic dragback exit of the > Prometheus Effect. To that end I will provide a SMOT > device and the new lossless measurement system at no > cost. In return you will be asked to do a series of > measurement on the SMOT device and report back your > results & comments either way. The SMOT device and the > measurement system will be yours to keep. > > To that end I would like to ask the following for > their so kind assistance: > > 1) Bill Beaty (Vortex) > 2) Scott Little or Hal Puthoff (Vortex) > 3) Jed Rothwell (Vortex) > 4) Terry Blanton (Vortex) > 5) Keith Nagel (Vortex) > 6) Jean-Louis Naudin (JLN Labs) > 7) Stefan Hartman (Overunity.com) > 8) Cyril Smith (OU Builders) > 9) David Squires (OU Builders) > > > Now it's just engineering effort, time and money, > Greg > > Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies. > http://au.movies.yahoo.com > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 29 06:34:59 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3TDYqGQ022349; Fri, 29 Apr 2005 06:34:53 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3TDYVjE022226; Fri, 29 Apr 2005 06:34:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 06:34:31 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Re: Reqest for Prometheus Effect verifiers Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 9:34:25 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050429133425.SKID2063.imf18aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59535 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > > From: "Mike Carrell" > Date: 2005/04/29 Fri AM 08:33:46 EDT > To: > Subject: Re: Reqest for Prometheus Effect verifiers > > And what about those who paid for the original SMOT kit, never got it, and > did not ask for money back? > Like me? I will happily consign mine to you, Mr. Carrell. I have been adequately smitten by SMOT. :-) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 29 07:22:18 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3TEM6GQ017984; Fri, 29 Apr 2005 07:22:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3TEM1N8017935; Fri, 29 Apr 2005 07:22:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 07:22:01 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Reqest for Prometheus Effect verifiers Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 10:24:26 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <20050429092237.89317.qmail web42110.mail.yahoo.com> X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59536 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Greg, Of course, I'd be delighted to help. In fact, I'll meet you more than half way here. I'm sure that the energy measurements you describe occur as you describe them. So there is no need at all to include the energy measuring device. The SMOT alone is more than sufficient. I will be happy to post the results of this landmark experiment on my website; with your ball return circuit ( the heart and soul of the SMOT ) we'll be able to easily convince the skeptics! When you're ready with the completed SMOT, I'll send you the shipping details. I'm glad you've taken the step of closing the loop and then sending out the kits; an MPEG on your website wouldn't be very convincing. K. -----Original Message----- From: Prometheus Effect [mailto:prometheus_effect yahoo.com.au] Sent: Friday, April 29, 2005 5:23 AM To: Vortex; FreeEnergy; Prometheus Effect Group Subject: Reqest for Prometheus Effect verifiers Guys, I would like to enlist the aid of some of the members of the OU / Free Energy community to independently verify the virtually no magnetic dragback exit of the Prometheus Effect. To that end I will provide a SMOT device and the new lossless measurement system at no cost. In return you will be asked to do a series of measurement on the SMOT device and report back your results & comments either way. The SMOT device and the measurement system will be yours to keep. To that end I would like to ask the following for their so kind assistance: 1) Bill Beaty (Vortex) 2) Scott Little or Hal Puthoff (Vortex) 3) Jed Rothwell (Vortex) 4) Terry Blanton (Vortex) 5) Keith Nagel (Vortex) 6) Jean-Louis Naudin (JLN Labs) 7) Stefan Hartman (Overunity.com) 8) Cyril Smith (OU Builders) 9) David Squires (OU Builders) Now it's just engineering effort, time and money, Greg Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies. http://au.movies.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 29 07:41:33 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3TEfNGQ000873; Fri, 29 Apr 2005 07:41:23 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3TEfLXR000851; Fri, 29 Apr 2005 07:41:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 07:41:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=HvICSCPtEWKK7YwEpiqa9GApV+BhWPbqDpJWl0tZwYbqpkwzfm0BKKLYYkESiO71; Message-ID: <410-220054529134047380 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Magnetically Aligned Electrolysis Cathodes Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 08:40:47 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940852e5446c96f6e27d2cd6e70a149bc1f350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.201 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59537 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII BTW. It was as Keith wrote, "Putterman's nefarious agenda..." that prompted this post. :-) I'm wondering if the super magnets were plated with Pd or such, would they get a Cold Fusion reaction (similar to Putterman's Hot Fusion) on the surface in a D2 environment? Frederick ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederick Sparber To: vortex-l eskimo.com Sent: 4/29/05 7:18:25 AM Subject: Re: Magnetically Aligned Electrolysis Cathodes The Coulomb Barrier is a 1/R^2 repulsive electrostatic force between nucleons that can be "tunneled" when the 1/R^4 attractive magnetic (Strong Force) exceeds it. Normally the random orientation/agitation of the nucleons of an atom precludes any such tunneling except perhaps by chance. OTOH, if the nucleons are forced to align in a strong magnetic field so that the Relativistic Electrodynamic Effect of convergence of like-charge-like spin particle beams at near-c velocity, it may be possible to effect controlled coulomb barrier tunneling. This gives one pause to wonder if "sandwiching" a sheet of Palladium between two ring magnets would increase the yield of CF heat from it if used as an electrolysis cathodes? The Neodymium Ring-Shape super magnets are available from Indigo: http://www.indigo.com/magnets/gphmgnts/metric-neodymium-rare-earth-magnets.html My on-hand stash consists of 10 ea. 25 mm O.D and 10 ea. 10 mm O.D. ring super magnets that are a bear to separate if they come together. Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
BTW. It was as Keith wrote, "Putterman's nefarious agenda..." that prompted this post.  :-)
 
I'm wondering if the super magnets were plated with Pd or such, would they
get a Cold Fusion reaction (similar to Putterman's Hot Fusion) on the surface in a D2 environment?
 
Frederick
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 4/29/05 7:18:25 AM
Subject: Re: Magnetically Aligned Electrolysis Cathodes

The Coulomb Barrier is a 1/R^2 repulsive electrostatic force between nucleons that
can be "tunneled" when the 1/R^4  attractive magnetic (Strong Force) exceeds it.
Normally the random orientation/agitation of the nucleons of an atom precludes any
such tunneling except perhaps by chance.
OTOH, if the nucleons are forced to align in a strong magnetic field so that the Relativistic Electrodynamic Effect of convergence of like-charge-like spin particle beams at near-c velocity, it may be possible to effect controlled coulomb barrier tunneling.
 
This gives one pause to wonder if "sandwiching" a sheet of Palladium between two ring
magnets would increase the yield of CF heat from it if used as an electrolysis cathodes?
 
The Neodymium Ring-Shape super magnets are available from Indigo:
 
 
My on-hand stash consists of 10 ea. 25 mm O.D and 10 ea.  10 mm O.D. ring super magnets
that are a bear to separate if they come together.
 
Frederick
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 29 08:00:10 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3TExjGQ012665; Fri, 29 Apr 2005 07:59:46 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3TExgju012628; Fri, 29 Apr 2005 07:59:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 07:59:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: "Vortex" Subject: RE: Magnetically Aligned Electrolysis Cathodes Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 11:02:06 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <410-220054529134047380 earthlink.net> X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59538 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Say Fred, I didn't say anything like that, that's my Left Coast counterpart, Jones (grin). >From my own experiments with magnets and electrolysis, you get an interesting ion sorting/concentrating effect that can be seen by doping the electrolyte with an acid/base indicator and using a neutral salt for the electrolyte. As regards CF, if you have a simple replicable Pd setup to share I'd be happy to do the magnet experiment...otherwise we're kind of dead in the water, huh? K. -----Original Message----- From: Frederick Sparber [mailto:fjsparber earthlink.net] Sent: Friday, April 29, 2005 9:41 AM To: vortex-l Subject: Re: Magnetically Aligned Electrolysis Cathodes BTW. It was as Keith wrote, "Putterman's nefarious agenda..." that prompted this post. :-) I'm wondering if the super magnets were plated with Pd or such, would they get a Cold Fusion reaction (similar to Putterman's Hot Fusion) on the surface in a D2 environment? Frederick ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederick Sparber To: vortex-l eskimo.com Sent: 4/29/05 7:18:25 AM Subject: Re: Magnetically Aligned Electrolysis Cathodes The Coulomb Barrier is a 1/R^2 repulsive electrostatic force between nucleons that can be "tunneled" when the 1/R^4 attractive magnetic (Strong Force) exceeds it. Normally the random orientation/agitation of the nucleons of an atom precludes any such tunneling except perhaps by chance. OTOH, if the nucleons are forced to align in a strong magnetic field so that the Relativistic Electrodynamic Effect of convergence of like-charge-like spin particle beams at near-c velocity, it may be possible to effect controlled coulomb barrier tunneling. This gives one pause to wonder if "sandwiching" a sheet of Palladium between two ring magnets would increase the yield of CF heat from it if used as an electrolysis cathodes? The Neodymium Ring-Shape super magnets are available from Indigo: http://www.indigo.com/magnets/gphmgnts/metric-neodymium-rare-earth-magnets.html My on-hand stash consists of 10 ea. 25 mm O.D and 10 ea. 10 mm O.D. ring super magnets that are a bear to separate if they come together. Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 29 08:00:38 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3TF0MGQ013015; Fri, 29 Apr 2005 08:00:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3TF0JKv012974; Fri, 29 Apr 2005 08:00:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 08:00:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Long Delayed Echoes Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 11:00:08 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050429150008.XCJT2063.imf18aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59539 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: (Pink Floyd playing in background) Japanese Ham detects RF echoes with delays of 20 minutes and 82 hours! See if you can guess why before reading the article: http://park1.wakwak.com/~ja7ao/lde/ldese.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 29 08:12:30 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3TFCDGQ025820; Fri, 29 Apr 2005 08:12:13 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3TFCBEY025808; Fri, 29 Apr 2005 08:12:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 08:12:11 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <41dodb$mrlk0g mxip01a.cluster1.charter.net> X-Ironport-AV: i="3.92,138,1112587200"; d="scan'147,217,208"; a="767217680:sNHT2297774890" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.12 (webedge20-101-197-20030912) From: To: CC: Subject: OT: Social InSecurity - The smart or just plain lucky Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 15:11:18 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=____1114787478994__'1(0skBS2" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59540 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=____1114787478994__'1(0skBS2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Keith Nagel's recent OT Social [In]Security Post got me to thinking... The thing that infuriates me the most about the Bush administration's Social Security Reform attempt is its utter futility at actually improving the average U.S. citizen's standard of living as the plan their retirement years. From my perspective it's just another elaborate shell game that redistributes a finite amount of beans from one pocket to another, the question being: whose pockets will the beans eventually end up in. As anyone who has ever played the stock market and ESPECIALLY commodities market will tell you: There are buyers and sellers. It takes two individuals to complete a transaction. When a transaction is completed one individual tends to make a profit at the expense of the other. This "profit/loss" mantra is particularly true for those hearty souls who play (or should I say: gamble) within the highly volatile commodities market. Granted, I assume that the Bush SSNO reform scheme is not proposing that any of its citizens gamble the future of their social security by playing the commodities market. Never the less, the buying and selling of stocks in the stock market often implies that some individuals, regardless of whether they are really smart or just plain dumb lucky, will make a profit. The point being: A profit tends to be made at the expense of those they complete the transaction against. The utter futility of Bush's SSNo reform plan implies that only those who are "smart or just plain dumb lucky" will tend to benefit. IMHO: It's not the president's job to assist those who are "smart or just plain dumb lucky." It's always been my impression that the president's job is to assist and improve the lives of ALL U.S. CITIZENS who voted (or didn't vote) him into office. Bush's plan favors the "smart or just plain dumb lucky." It's always been my hope that the elected official that was voted into the highest office of our land would spend more of his time on figuring out how to reduce the over-all cost of energy so that ALL U.S. citizens would benefit, instead of implementing the equivalent of a "shell game" where only the smart or just plain dumb lucky will tend to benefit. Said differently: Reduce the cost of energy and EVERYONE benefits. EVERYONE's standard of living has a chance to improve. Mr. Rothwell has already explained this paradigm more eloquently than I even could. OTOH, start playing the stock market with our SSNO and only the "smart or just plain dumb lucky" will tend to benefit when it's time to retire. Bush is not doing his job. This is a recipe that will allow more senior citizens to spend their golden years working under the Golden Arches rather than enjoying what creative pursuits they have left to give back to society. "May I take your order, sir? Two Big Macks? Yes, sir, right away." So, what else is new. Frustrated in Madison, Wisconsin. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com ------=____1114787478994__'1(0skBS2 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0042_01C54C43.4080F480" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0042_01C54C43.4080F480 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0043_01C54C43.4080F480" ------=_NextPart_001_0043_01C54C43.4080F480 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankObserving the vortex produced in a clear plexiglas tank of water by = a high speed rotating member facing down with a clockwise rotation I = notice the cone of the vortex is at the surface and counterclockwise = due to the vortex curling 180 degrees from the face of the rotating = member up to the surface. The diameter of the vortex remains near = constant until it approaches the water surface when it expands to the = familar parabolic form. a measured amount of air can be induced at the = member due to vacuum. The air allows the many shed vortices to become = visible in the water that move in many directions.=20 A water vortex is made up of many spirals some of which appear to be = flowing opposite from the main bands. These spirals remind me of a model of a DNA molecule.. hmmm. Reading a recent research paper where light was " frozen" reminds me of = what happens when a water vortex is disturbed.. it collapses. Thinking of the frozen light experiment, I try to imagine what is taking = place. I have considered the event may be similar to impinging on a = water vortex... " IF" light is actually in spiral helix form and = interrupting ( impinging) the helix may be what causes the light to = freeze. If light is actually composed of 3 components it could better = explain why sunlight can heat a surface after traveling the distance = through space at near absolute zero temperature. The water vortex may reveal one of the " capacitor" properties of water. = If water and light have 3 components and are spiral helix in form there = may be a way to " interrupt or impinge on one of the bands to " = trigger" the capacitor. Looking at Ecclesiastes 4;12 I read a sentence made by the Teacher.. " a = cord of three strands is not quickly broken". may offer a clue. Some of the most unseeming comments expressed in this group have led to = stimulation of thought which is the real worth of=20 the VortexL. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0043_01C54C43.4080F480 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Observing the vortex produced in a clear plexiglas tank of water by = a high=20 speed rotating member facing down with a clockwise rotation I notice the = cone of=20 the vortex is at the surface and counterclockwise  due to the = vortex=20 curling 180 degrees from the face of  the rotating member up to the = surface. The diameter of the vortex remains near constant until it = approaches=20 the water surface when it expands to the familar parabolic form. a = measured=20 amount of air can be induced at the member due to vacuum. The air allows = the=20 many shed vortices to become visible in the water that move in many = directions.=20
 
A water vortex is made up of many spirals some of which = appear to=20 be flowing opposite from the main bands.
These spirals remind me of a model of a DNA molecule.. = hmmm.
 
Reading a recent research paper where light was "=20 frozen" reminds me of what happens when a water vortex is = disturbed.. it=20 collapses.
Thinking of the frozen light experiment, I try to imagine what is = taking=20 place. I have considered the event may be similar to impinging = on  a water vortex... " IF" light is actually in spiral helix form = and=20 interrupting ( impinging) the helix may be what causes = the light=20 to freeze. If light is actually composed of 3 components it could better = explain=20 why sunlight can heat a surface after traveling the distance through = space at=20 near absolute zero temperature.
 
The water vortex may reveal one of the " capacitor" properties of = water. If=20 water and light have 3 components and are spiral helix=20 in form  there may be a way to " interrupt or impinge = on one=20 of the bands  to " trigger" the capacitor.
Looking at Ecclesiastes 4;12 I read a sentence made by the = Teacher.. "=20 a cord of three strands is not quickly broken".
 may offer a clue.
 
Some of the most unseeming comments expressed in this group = have led=20 to stimulation of thought which is the real worth of
the VortexL.
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_0043_01C54C43.4080F480-- ------=_NextPart_000_0042_01C54C43.4080F480 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <004101c54c6d$294ac780$c5017841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0042_01C54C43.4080F480-- ------=____1114787478994__'1(0skBS2-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 29 08:31:12 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3TFUvGQ003698; Fri, 29 Apr 2005 08:30:58 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3TFUsag003663; Fri, 29 Apr 2005 08:30:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 08:30:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4272532C.2030804 pobox.com> Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 11:30:52 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.5) Gecko/20050105 Debian/1.7.5-1 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Long Delayed Echoes References: <20050429150008.XCJT2063.imf18aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> In-Reply-To: <20050429150008.XCJT2063.imf18aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59541 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: >(Pink Floyd playing in background) > >Japanese Ham detects RF echoes with delays of 20 minutes and 82 hours! See if you can guess why before reading the article: > >http://park1.wakwak.com/~ja7ao/lde/ldese.htm > > ?? OK, I read the page, and my immediate reaction to their proposed explanation is NO WAY. As I understand it, they believe that the signal went out, away from Earth, 10 light minutes or 41 light hours, respectively, bounced off of something (doesn't matter what, as far as I'm concerned) and came back to Earth, and was detected by a ham with amateur radio equipment. As Bones would occasionally say in Star Trek, "That's impossible!" To receive a ham-generated signal 82 light hours from its point of origin, using ham equipment, seems to me to require that the signal be focused in some way. The fact that this only happens around solar maxima would seem to suggest that the signals are being guided around the Earth by the highly active ionosphere. If this is for real, I'd guess that the 82 hour signal had just been going around and around the Earth for 82 hours. That's awfully hard to believe, I grant you, but it seems a lot easier to buy than that the signal was still detectable after a trek across 82 light hours of 1/r^2 straight-line travel in space. So, have I just shown my ignorance here, or what? :-) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 29 08:31:57 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3TFVfGQ004194; Fri, 29 Apr 2005 08:31:42 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3TFVckT004155; Fri, 29 Apr 2005 08:31:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 08:31:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=QJ7RF+evIwA6kt44CNl3isQhYzI2VLk40Sa7mCRO+ukXCSA06FGFmhoSFvXMMYV4; Message-ID: <410-220054529143122840 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Prometheus Effect and FeRh Alloy Antiferromagnetic-Ferromagnetic Transition Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 09:31:22 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940b9ebacd31c56951f3814a23d78d04bdc350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.162.77 Resent-Message-ID: <5lfllC.A.zAB.ZNlcCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59542 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII This stirs old memories of the late 1950s heralding of using the transition of an Antiferromagnetic Iron-Rhodium alloy to the Ferromagnetic state as a heat engine. At around 80% ( pressed-sintered) Rhodium "buttons" of the alloy heated on a surface would jump a few inches up to a magnet placed above. When they cooled they would drop back to the hot surface, and so on. My interest at the time was in using the effect for thermal switches. I never thought to check for over-unity. :-) Hansen's, " Constitution of Binary Alloys" shows the narrow region where this effect occurs. Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

This stirs old memories of the late 1950s heralding of using the transition of an Antiferromagnetic Iron-Rhodium alloy to the Ferromagnetic state as a heat engine.
At around 80% ( pressed-sintered) Rhodium "buttons" of the alloy heated on a surface would jump a few inches up to a magnet placed above. When they cooled they would drop back to the hot surface, and so on.  My interest at the time was in using the effect for thermal switches. I never thought to check for over-unity.   :-)
 
Hansen's, " Constitution of Binary Alloys" shows the narrow region where this effect occurs.
 
Frederick
 
 
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 29 08:51:56 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3TFpiGQ012468; Fri, 29 Apr 2005 08:51:44 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3TFph1X012443; Fri, 29 Apr 2005 08:51:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 08:51:43 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Re: Long Delayed Echoes Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 11:51:36 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050429155136.ZXTJ2063.imf18aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59543 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > > From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" > To receive a ham-generated signal 82 light hours from its point of > origin, using ham equipment, seems to me to require that the signal be > focused in some way. He supposedly has the proof; but, "focusing" is a possibility. Imagine you're a point source at the center of a 41 light hour radius reflective sphere. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 29 09:01:22 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3TG16GQ016529; Fri, 29 Apr 2005 09:01:06 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3TG13uT016502; Fri, 29 Apr 2005 09:01:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 09:01:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <41djhc$q6hfj2 mxip09a.cluster1.charter.net> X-Ironport-AV: i="3.92,139,1112587200"; d="scan'208"; a="879279714:sNHT17643812" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.12 (webedge20-101-197-20030912) From: To: CC: Subject: OT: Social InSecurity - The smart or just plain lucky Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 16:00:55 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59544 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a re-post. Hopefully the plain text formatting worked a little better this time...(Think I accidentally hit the HTML format key.) * * * * Keith Nagel's recent OT Social [In]Security Post got me to thinking... The thing that infuriates me the most about the Bush administration's Social Security Reform attempt is its utter futility at actually improving the average U.S. citizen's standard of living as they plan their retirement years. From my perspective it's just another elaborate shell game that redistributes a finite amount of beans from one pocket to another, the question being: whose pockets will the beans eventually end up in. As anyone who has ever played the stock market and ESPECIALLY commodities market will tell you: There are buyers and sellers. It takes two individuals to complete a transaction. When a transaction is completed one individual tends to make a profit at the expense of the other. This "profit/loss" mantra is particularly true for those hearty souls who play (or should I say: gamble) within the highly volatile commodities market. Granted, I assume that the Bush SSNO reform scheme is not proposing that any of its citizens gamble the future of their social security by playing the commodities market. Never the less, the buying and selling of stocks in the stock market often implies that some individuals, regardless of whether they are really smart or just plain dumb lucky, will make a profit. The point being: A profit tends to be made at the expense of those they complete the transaction against. The utter futility of Bush's SSNo reform plan implies that only those who are "smart or just plain dumb lucky" will tend to benefit. IMHO: It's not the president's job to assist those who are "smart or just plain dumb lucky." It's always been my impression that the president's job is to assist and improve the lives of ALL U.S. CITIZENS who voted (or didn't vote) him into office. Bush's plan favors the "smart or just plain dumb lucky." It's always been my hope that the elected official that was voted into the highest office of our land would spend more of his time on figuring out how to reduce the over-all cost of energy so that ALL U.S. citizens would benefit, instead of implementing the equivalent of a "shell game" where only the smart or just plain dumb lucky will tend to benefit. Said differently: Reduce the cost of energy and EVERYONE benefits. EVERYONE's standard of living has a chance to improve. Mr. Rothwell has already explained this paradigm more eloquently than I even could. OTOH, start playing the stock market with our SSNO and only the "smart or just plain dumb lucky" will tend to benefit when it's time to retire. Bush is not doing his job. This is a recipe that will allow more senior citizens to spend their golden years working under the Golden Arches rather than enjoying what creative pursuits they have left to give back to society. "May I take your order, sir? Two Big Macks? Yes, sir, right away." So, what else is new. Frustrated in Madison, Wisconsin. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 29 08:57:28 2005 Received: from ultra7.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra7.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3TFvMZC029162; Fri, 29 Apr 2005 08:57:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra7.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3TFvFTf029128; Fri, 29 Apr 2005 08:57:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 08:57:15 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra7.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42725B50.5080504 eskimo.com> Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 09:05:36 -0700 From: Robert Brady User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Long Delayed Echoes References: <20050429150008.XCJT2063.imf18aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> <4272532C.2030804@pobox.com> In-Reply-To: <4272532C.2030804 pobox.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59545 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I believe that the delayed echoes are caused by electromagnetic ducting around the earth. I remember that a TV station in the mid-USA had a test pattern which appeared long after the station ceased to function. Ducting is not uncommon for short periods. Note that radio waves are bent by gravity and could possibly orbit under the right conditions. It would be interesting to know what fresquencies were involved and the time of day. Bob KB7HP > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 29 09:14:07 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3TGDuGQ022671; Fri, 29 Apr 2005 09:13:56 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3TGDprv022613; Fri, 29 Apr 2005 09:13:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 09:13:51 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type; b=QBEfm6C2W6ma7llJt3bcaJnFCBb1n5McnEGfDhbqA7e1xMpVcKHr6XSs5az/3Ix8; Message-ID: <410-220054529151334740 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: RE: Magnetically Aligned Electrolysis Cathodes Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 10:13:34 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940b4909f3686a7a3af2874a43d6ff64438350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.159.246 Resent-Message-ID: <94Ntp.A.QhF.-0lcCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59546 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Keith, Apparently Indigo has no problem putting the Nickel Plating on their super magnets (before magnetizing them?). http://www.indigo.com/magnets/gphmgnts/metric-neodymium-rare-earth-magnets. html Gas phase reaction of D2O Vapor/D2 on them, as is,or Pd on Ni? The question is whether or not the gas phase nucleons have enough polarizability to align so that the Relativistic Electrodynamic Effect can cause cancellation of the electrostatic coulomb barrier. > [Original Message] > From: Keith Nagel > To: Vortex > Date: 4/29/05 9:59:46 AM > Subject: RE: Magnetically Aligned Electrolysis Cathodes > > Say Fred, I didn't say anything like that, that's > my Left Coast counterpart, Jones (grin). > Figures. :-) > > From my own experiments with magnets and electrolysis, > you get an interesting ion sorting/concentrating effect > that can be seen by doping the electrolyte with an > acid/base indicator and using a neutral salt for > the electrolyte. As regards CF, if you have a simple > replicable Pd setup to share I'd be happy to do the > magnet experiment...otherwise we're kind of dead in > the water, huh? > Thermister and neutron counter/ :-) > K. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Frederick Sparber [mailto:fjsparber earthlink.net] > Sent: Friday, April 29, 2005 9:41 AM > To: vortex-l > Subject: Re: Magnetically Aligned Electrolysis Cathodes > > > BTW. It was as Keith wrote, "Putterman's nefarious agenda..." that prompted this post. :-) > > I'm wondering if the super magnets were plated with Pd or such, would they > get a Cold Fusion reaction (similar to Putterman's Hot Fusion) on the surface in a D2 environment? > > Frederick > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Frederick Sparber > To: vortex-l eskimo.com > Sent: 4/29/05 7:18:25 AM > Subject: Re: Magnetically Aligned Electrolysis Cathodes > > > The Coulomb Barrier is a 1/R^2 repulsive electrostatic force between nucleons that > can be "tunneled" when the 1/R^4 attractive magnetic (Strong Force) exceeds it. > Normally the random orientation/agitation of the nucleons of an atom precludes any > such tunneling except perhaps by chance. > OTOH, if the nucleons are forced to align in a strong magnetic field so that the Relativistic Electrodynamic Effect of convergence > of like-charge-like spin particle beams at near-c velocity, it may be possible to effect controlled coulomb barrier tunneling. > > This gives one pause to wonder if "sandwiching" a sheet of Palladium between two ring > magnets would increase the yield of CF heat from it if used as an electrolysis cathodes? > > The Neodymium Ring-Shape super magnets are available from Indigo: > > http://www.indigo.com/magnets/gphmgnts/metric-neodymium-rare-earth-magnets.h tml > > My on-hand stash consists of 10 ea. 25 mm O.D and 10 ea. 10 mm O.D. ring super magnets > that are a bear to separate if they come together. > > Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 29 09:26:57 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3TGQdGQ030748; Fri, 29 Apr 2005 09:26:40 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3TGQalT030720; Fri, 29 Apr 2005 09:26:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 09:26:36 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Long Delayed Echoes Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 12:29:03 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <42725B50.5080504 eskimo.com> X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59547 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I agree. Ducting between the poles is a well known phenomena, although the 20 minute delay is much more common than the 82 hour one. The ducting is due to the ionosphere and the magnetic poles, and the effect varies with the solar weather. I disagree that gravity is the cause. This is a plasma effect in conjunction with the earths magnetic field. It's interesting that RC has been banging on about frozen light, this effect is very closely related. K. -----Original Message----- From: Robert Brady [mailto:rebrady eskimo.com] Sent: Friday, April 29, 2005 12:06 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Long Delayed Echoes I believe that the delayed echoes are caused by electromagnetic ducting around the earth. I remember that a TV station in the mid-USA had a test pattern which appeared long after the station ceased to function. Ducting is not uncommon for short periods. Note that radio waves are bent by gravity and could possibly orbit under the right conditions. It would be interesting to know what fresquencies were involved and the time of day. Bob KB7HP > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 29 09:46:23 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3TGk7GQ008592; Fri, 29 Apr 2005 09:46:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3TGk5jE008562; Fri, 29 Apr 2005 09:46:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 09:46:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=IjX9uLwurauXYGVh6p7cFsHYr+OkQpgcYXCQVrdlslPZDDGVWzXKX9X3+MuUIDHd; Message-ID: <410-220054529154551690 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: RE: Magnetically Aligned Electrolysis Cathodes Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 10:45:51 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940aac52fd4cf84418bded79ba12dd83991350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.159.246 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59548 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Keith wrote: > > From my own experiments with magnets and electrolysis, > you get an interesting ion sorting/concentrating effect > that can be seen by doping the electrolyte with an > acid/base indicator and using a neutral salt for > the electrolyte. As regards CF, if you have a simple > replicable Pd setup to share I'd be happy to do the > magnet experiment...otherwise we're kind of dead in > the water, huh? > Nope. All we need is a small OD heat pipe with the ring super magnets slipped over it in a stack spaced just enough between the magnets to allow the D2O Vapor/D2 Gas to get between them. The portion of the heat pipe sticking out of the vapor/gas chamber is used for calorimetry measurements of that enormous heat flux pouring out of it. Sans neutrons and gammas (but with lots of neutrinos/Electronium. No? Frederick. ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

Keith wrote:
>
> From my own experiments with magnets and electrolysis,
> you get an interesting ion sorting/concentrating effect
> that can be seen by doping the electrolyte with an
> acid/base indicator and using a neutral salt for
> the electrolyte. As regards CF, if you have a simple
> replicable Pd setup to share I'd be happy to do the
> magnet experiment...otherwise we're kind of dead in
> the water, huh?
>
Nope.  All we need is a small OD heat pipe with the ring super magnets slipped
over it in a stack spaced just enough between the magnets to allow the D2O Vapor/D2 Gas
to get between them. The portion of the heat pipe sticking out of the vapor/gas chamber
is used for calorimetry measurements of that enormous heat flux pouring out of it. 
Sans neutrons and gammas (but with lots of neutrinos/Electronium. No?  
 
Frederick.
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 29 10:06:24 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3TH6AGQ019393; Fri, 29 Apr 2005 10:06:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3TH68rP019377; Fri, 29 Apr 2005 10:06:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 10:06:08 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Re: Re: Long Delayed Echoes Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 13:06:01 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050429170601.DCBE2063.imf18aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59549 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > > From: Robert Brady > Date: 2005/04/29 Fri PM 12:05:36 EDT > To: vortex-l eskimo.com > Subject: Re: Long Delayed Echoes > > I believe that the delayed echoes are caused by electromagnetic ducting > around the earth. Perhaps, but then, how do you explain the doppler shift? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 29 12:48:09 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3TJlwhC015919; Fri, 29 Apr 2005 12:47:58 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3TJluc4015894; Fri, 29 Apr 2005 12:47:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 12:47:56 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <410-220054529194741390 ix.netcom.com> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: aki ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.1.47.0 (Windows) From: "Akira Kawasaki" To: "vortex-l" Subject: RE: OT : Social Insecurity Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 12:47:41 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: c4cc7f5f697e8746f66dc3a06d5924d864e9e93deb70c6278e33864bc196e172301ee85fcf877b1e350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 216.175.90.109 Resent-Message-ID: <_lk-ND.A.S4D.s9ocCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59550 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: April 30, 2005 Vortex, Hi Keith, I do not believe Pres Bush understands what he is talking about which is a Shell Game. And Who pays off (if ever) the "Special" bonds? We do(citizen taxpayer). And who pays off the gov. bonds of any kind? We do. Its a sucker game all around while the "Legal Tenders" are printed in ever increasing numbers as most people don't get it, blaming it on "inflation". I believe that is one of the reasons the Eurodollar and the EU was created. We'll see if it itself works. Watch out when nations start to demand purchases and payments in Eurodollars. Why should central banks of nations keep their currency reserves in so called Federal Reserve U.S. Gov. bonds which loses value faster than the interest it accrues? Alexander Hamilton established the sound Dollar that held its intrinsic value but this was deteriorated and eventually destroyed by today, according to history. Let's see if financial chaos eventually appears someday. I hope not for my nation but its getting pretty slippery as politicians of unwashed principles try to figure it out. -ak- > [Original Message] > From: Keith Nagel > To: Vortex > Date: 4/28/2005 8:54:59 PM > Subject: OT : Social Insecurity > > Mr. Bush on Social Security...tonite. > > ///// Mr Bush sez: > > In a reformed Social System, voluntary personal retirement > accounts would offer workers a number of investment options > that are simple and easy to understand. > > I know some Americans have reservations about investing > in the stock market, so I propose that one investment > option consist entirely of TREASURY BONDS, which are backed > by the full faith and credit of the United States government. > Options like this will make voluntary personal retirement > accounts a safer investment. > > ///// Mr Bush continues... > > Now, it's very important for our fellow citizens to understand > there is not a bank account here in Washington, D.C., where we > take your payroll taxes and hold it for you and then give > it back to you when you retire. > > Our system is called pay as you go. You pay into the system > through your payroll taxes and the government spends it. > It spends the money on the current retirees and with the money > left over, it funds other government programs. > And all that's left behind is file cabinets full of IOUs. > > ////// Hmmmmm.... IOUs? What are those? Sounds risky... > > From the US government site Social Security Online > http://www.ssa.gov/qa.htm > > Social Security is largely a "pay-as-you-go" system with today's taxpayers > paying for the benefits of today's retirees. Money not needed to pay today's > benefits is invested in special-issue TREASURY BONDS. > > ////// Oh, so those IOU's are TREASURY BONDS. How about that. Comments? > > K. > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 29 13:08:40 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3TK8PhC024092; Fri, 29 Apr 2005 13:08:26 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3TK8OFF024064; Fri, 29 Apr 2005 13:08:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 13:08:24 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20050429160604.03c00800 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 16:07:29 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Greg's msg from 1997: continuous closed-loop SMOT In-Reply-To: <20050429002031.58188.qmail web42101.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050429002031.58188.qmail web42101.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59551 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: "Prometheus Effect" a.k.a. Greg Watson wrote: >Hi Jed, > >You once posted me a copy of the SMOT review Chris >Tinsley did for IE. Could you please do that again? I >would like to review it and post a few comments. > >By the way, can you provide the mailing address for IE . . . Hi Greg, Go to hell. And have a nice trip! - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 29 13:17:14 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3TKGvhC029641; Fri, 29 Apr 2005 13:16:57 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3TKGrXP029608; Fri, 29 Apr 2005 13:16:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 13:16:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: More Fusion News Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 16:16:44 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050429201644.LREK2063.imf18aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59552 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: http://www.innovations-report.com/html/reports/energy_engineering/report-43719.html "In 2002, nuclear engineers Rusi P. Taleyarkhan of Purdue University and Richard T. Lahey Jr. of Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute announced that they had produced thermonuclear fusion by imploding tiny deuterium-rich gas bubbles with sound waves and neutrons. The news about their fusion method--dubbed sonofusion--made headlines worldwide. Yet many skeptics greeted it with scoffing. Now, after repeating the experiments with an improved apparatus, Taleyarkhan and Lahey have more convincing evidence. " I'll try to find a copy of the May IEEE "Spectrum" From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 29 14:06:27 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3TL5vhC020873; Fri, 29 Apr 2005 14:05:57 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3TL5ue2020865; Fri, 29 Apr 2005 14:05:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 14:05:56 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: Increased Biomass Efficiency Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 17:05:49 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050429210549.NQUK2063.imf18aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59553 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/04/050422165917.htm "Microbial Fuel Cell: High Yield Hydrogen Source And Wastewater Cleaner Using a new electrically-assisted microbial fuel cell (MFC) that does not require oxygen, Penn State environmental engineers and a scientist at Ion Power Inc. have developed the first process that enables bacteria to coax four times as much hydrogen directly out of biomass than can be generated typically by fermentation alone. " From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 29 14:43:19 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3TLh8hC006025; Fri, 29 Apr 2005 14:43:08 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3TLh6J8005985; Fri, 29 Apr 2005 14:43:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 14:43:06 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.16.1 (webedge20-101-1106-101-20040924) X-Originating-IP: [70.150.70.66] From: Terry Blanton To: Subject: [OT] Watch Me Try to Get Home Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 17:42:59 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050429214259.PAAC2063.imf18aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59554 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This interactive map: http://www.georgia-navigator.com/maps/atlanta shows near live traffic if you click on "cameras" at the top. It's a part of the $1/4 B traffic management system originally built for the '96 Olympics and expanded upon since. I work near the junction of 400 and 85 and live 17 miles NE. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 29 15:46:47 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3TMkYhC031466; Fri, 29 Apr 2005 15:46:35 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3TMkTFT031433; Fri, 29 Apr 2005 15:46:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 15:46:29 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Company to Build Space Elevator Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 08:46:15 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <20050428133845.ZYBH2063.imf18aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> In-Reply-To: <20050428133845.ZYBH2063.imf18aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j3TMkLhC031368 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59555 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Terry Blanton's message of Thu, 28 Apr 2005 9:38:45 -0400: Hi, [snip] >http://cbs2.com/water/watercooler_story_116173449.html I suspect that the following quote may be a better indication of what is really likely to happen. "The three-year-old company, which has nine employees in Bremerton, Washington, also plans to sell nanotubes fibers to strengthen glass and plastic products." Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 29 17:03:40 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3U03Qps028279; Fri, 29 Apr 2005 17:03:26 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3U03Osw028251; Fri, 29 Apr 2005 17:03:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 17:03:24 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Heavyweight anachronism? Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 10:03:11 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <20050426202110.RGFY2434.imf17aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> <426EAE9A.7090003@pobox.com> <426EE95E.5030807@bellsouth.net> In-Reply-To: <426EE95E.5030807 bellsouth.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j3U03Gps028194 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59556 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Terry Blanton's message of Tue, 26 Apr 2005 21:22:38 -0400: Hi, [snip] >The heavy water reactor that Russia is building for Iran is only 40 MW. >The last nuke I helped build was 1,640 MW. > >How can anyone doubt the obvious? I agree that it is quite likely. If I were an Iranian, sitting on that much oil, with the policy of the current US administration in the middle east abundantly clear, I would certainly be doing everything in my power to get my hands on nuclear weapons. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 29 19:17:24 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3U2H5gq012618; Fri, 29 Apr 2005 19:17:10 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3U2H3YY012597; Fri, 29 Apr 2005 19:17:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 19:17:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4272EAB2.5030307 bellsouth.net> Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 22:17:22 -0400 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040804 Netscape/7.2 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Kewl UFO Photo Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59557 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Here: http://www.coasttocoastam.com/gen/page923.html A similar sighting was made in Texas who's magnified image showed English text. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 29 20:30:59 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3U3Ungq001987; Fri, 29 Apr 2005 20:30:50 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3U3UjZ1001947; Fri, 29 Apr 2005 20:30:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 20:30:45 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Long Delayed Echoes Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 13:30:35 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <20050429155136.ZXTJ2063.imf18aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> In-Reply-To: <20050429155136.ZXTJ2063.imf18aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j3U3Ufgq001899 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59558 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Terry Blanton's message of Fri, 29 Apr 2005 11:51:36 -0400: Hi, [snip] >He supposedly has the proof; but, "focusing" is a possibility. Imagine you're a point source at the center of a 41 light hour radius reflective sphere. ..such as the Heliopause perhaps? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 29 20:41:04 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3U3ergq004922; Fri, 29 Apr 2005 20:40:54 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3U3epVe004900; Fri, 29 Apr 2005 20:40:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 20:40:51 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <410-22005463034036620 ix.netcom.com> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: aki ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.1.47.0 (Windows) From: "Akira Kawasaki" To: "vortex-l" Subject: FW: WHAT'S NEW Friday, April 29, 2005 Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 20:40:36 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: c4cc7f5f697e8746f66dc3a06d5924d8f31814396430efc700283623ed95fe07379a5ba0fa6c7c04350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 216.175.90.109 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59559 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > [Original Message] > From: What's New > To: Akira Kawasaki Date: 4/29/2005 1:16:22 PM Subject: WHAT'S NEW Friday, April 29, 2005 WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 29 Apr 05 Washington, DC 1. ENERGY: MAYBE THIS IS THE WAY THE SYSTEM IS SUPPOSED TO WORK. Last night President Bush began his press conference talking about high gasoline prices. "First," he said, "we must become better conservers of energy." Terrific! The price at the pump is doing the job. The President even called for a nuclear energy policy. And earlier in the week, he called for incentives to encourage the switch from SUVs to hybrids. The Cheney solution was always to drill more wells. Bush also said in the press conference that we must develop "new energy sources, such as hydrogen, ethanol or biodiesel." Three years ago we were told that the way to reduce dependence on foreign oil is with Freedom Car http://www.aps.org/WN/WN02/wn011802.cfm#1. Alas, hydrogen is a fuel, but it's not an energy source. Freedom Car won't happen in your lifetime http://www.sc.doe.gov/bes/hydrogen.pdf . But the biodiesel idea is interesting. Biodiesel fuel can be made from animal fat. Linking it to a liposuction facility would alleviate two serious national problems at the same time. 2. CLIMATE CHANGE: ENERGY-BALANCE FINDING IS THE "SMOKING GUN." A week ago, an important editorial in Science by Donald Kennedy called attention to NASA's recent decision to delay or cancel planned Earth science missions and terminate orbiting spacecraft to feed the pointless Moon/Mars mission. A report in this week's Science shows how just short sighted that is. An international monitoring effort, Argo, has deployed 1,800 instrumented floats in oceans around the world since 2000. A NASA team led by James Hansen collected data from the floats and precisely determined ocean levels from satellite observations. They found that Earth is absorbing more energy than it's radiating back into space, an imbalance large enough to raise temperatures 1 F this century, even if greenhouse gas emissions are capped tomorrow. "There can no longer be genuine doubt that human-made gases are the dominant cause of observed warming," Hansen said. "This energy imbalance is the 'smoking gun' that we have been looking for." 3. TRANSITION: PHILIP MORRISON, A MAN OF CONSCIENCE, DIES AT 89. Sent to the island of Tinian to help assemble the bomb that was dropped on Hiroshima, he toured the city a month later and spent the rest of his life campaigning against nuclear weapons. 4. TABLE-TOP FUSION: SMALL NEUTRON GENERATOR IS FAR FROM RECORD. Newspapers around the country reported the amazing result that a UCLA team had demonstrated fusion of deuterium to form helium in a table-top device. They were, of course, scooped by Ernest Rutherford, 71 years ago. Fusion is easy. A self-sustaining reaction is not. The unique feature of the UCLA device is to get the accelerating voltage from a pyroelectric crystal, which makes it quite compact. Unfortunately for civilization, there are thousands of fusion devices in the world not much bigger than a walnut. They are in every nuclear weapon to produce a pulse of neutrons at just the right time. THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND. Opinions are the author's and not necessarily shared by the University of Maryland, but they should be. --- Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.aps.org/WN To subscribe, send a blank e-mail to: From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 30 05:20:12 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3UCK4eD008424; Sat, 30 Apr 2005 05:20:04 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3UCK2JE008415; Sat, 30 Apr 2005 05:20:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 05:20:02 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050430132014.006929b0 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 13:20:14 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Spiral helixes Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59560 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:40 pm 28-04-05 -0500, you wrote: >Observing the vortex produced in a clear plexiglas tank of water by a high speed rotating member facing down with a clockwise rotation I notice the cone of the vortex is at the surface and counterclockwise due to the vortex curling 180 degrees from the face of the rotating member up to the surface. The diameter of the vortex remains near constant until it approaches the water surface when it expands to the familiar parabolic form. a measured amount of air can be induced at the member due to vacuum. The air allows the many shed vortices to become visible in the water that move in many directions. > >A water vortex is made up of many spirals some of which appear to be flowing opposite from the main bands. >These spirals remind me of a model of a DNA molecule.. hmmm. > >Reading a recent research paper where light was " frozen" reminds me of what happens when a water vortex is disturbed.. it collapses. >Thinking of the frozen light experiment, I try to imagine what is taking place. I have considered the event may be similar to impinging on a water vortex... " IF" light is actually in spiral helix form and interrupting ( impinging) the helix may be what causes the light to freeze. If light is actually composed of 3 components it could better explain why sunlight can heat a surface after traveling the distance through space at near absolute zero temperature. > >The water vortex may reveal one of the " capacitor" properties of water. If water and light have 3 components and are spiral helix in form there may be a way to " interrupt or impinge on one of the bands to " trigger" the capacitor. >Looking at Ecclesiastes 4;12 I read a sentence made by the Teacher.. " a cord of three strands is not quickly broken". > may offer a clue. > >Some of the most unseeming comments expressed in this group have led to stimulation of thought which is the real worth of >the VortexL. > >Richard Hi Richard, I think your point about the third dimension is crucial. We have always to consider, not only A and B, but also the interaction term AB. In the real world 2 + 2 does not equal 4 since to the extent that "adding" represents something physical, there is always an interaction term which has some real value. Often, of course, this interaction is so small that it is below the threshold of measurable (though not intellectual) perception. To take a simple example of what I mean, if we have two gold coins and we bring them together then they have lost some gravitational potential energy and gained some internal energy (inverse inertia). Indeed, even in the symbolic representation of 2 + 2 = 4 one can see that there is a loss of information (negative interaction) in going from the LHS to the RHS of the equation. Your "a cord of three strands is not quickly broken" quote is interesting. Could this have referred to a braid or plait I wonder =========================================== Braiding of fiber yarn creates a strand or rope that is thicker and stronger than the strands would have been separately. Braided ropes are preferred by arborists and rock climbers because they do not twist under load, as does an ordinary twisted- strand rope. These ropes consist of one or more concentric tubular braided jackets surrounding a single untwisted yarn of straight fibers. =========================================== Here again, it is the interaction introduced by the bending of the individual strands which gives the AB, AC, BC and ABC interaction terms. Though tenuous in the extreme these interactions are truly physical just as much as the flavours of a well cooked meal or a vintage wine. I suppose it is this difficulty to pin down the physical nature of the interaction between magnetic and electric field which makes the identification of the third component so difficult. The "right angles" characteristic of E and M ensures their virtual independence from each other - and yet this independence cannot be complete or they could not interact at all. The angle must be pi/2 (+/-) delta. The situation is modelled by the flows in a closed vortex (e.g. smoke ring). In the case it is easy to see that the flow of material in the skin of the ring cannot be exactly at right angles to the flow along the axis of the ring. It seems to me that the reason the interface term is so difficult to get to grips with is that whereas the A and B terms are relatively voluminous and static, the interaction term AB is at the opposite boundary, spatially tending to zero and extremely dynamic. In short it is responsible for maintaining the enormous flows between A and B which maintain their separate identities. In symbols A <> B so the symbol <> represents the interaction term. I will resist the temptation to go OT by not pointing out the obvious analogy. Now since with Tom Flandern I am confident the speed of gravity is manifestly vastly greater than the speed of light the only thing that I can see which could possibly fill the role for the interaction term between E and M is G. Though SMOT is probably a non-starter I feel sure that it is looking in the right place. However, as Ing.Saviour has shown, mass is dependent on one's orientation with respect to the "fixed" stars. Any experiments which attempt to isolate M-G interaction will have to take this effect into account since one will get different results at 9 am than at 9 pm. Cheers Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 30 14:28:17 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3ULRoij014670; Sat, 30 Apr 2005 14:27:51 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3ULRPar014210; Sat, 30 Apr 2005 14:27:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 14:27:25 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <427393A2.60300 bellsouth.net> Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 10:18:10 -0400 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040804 Netscape/7.2 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Long Delayed Echoes References: <20050429155136.ZXTJ2063.imf18aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59562 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >In reply to Terry Blanton's message of Fri, 29 Apr 2005 11:51:36 >-0400: >Hi, >[snip] > > >>He supposedly has the proof; but, "focusing" is a possibility. Imagine you're a point source at the center of a 41 light hour radius reflective sphere. >> >> > >..such as the Heliopause perhaps? > Yes, and such a pity that we might not hear Voyager's experience with the Heliopause: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A23500-2005Apr3.html From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 30 14:29:46 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3ULTJij016017; Sat, 30 Apr 2005 14:29:20 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3ULSSVK015183; Sat, 30 Apr 2005 14:28:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 14:28:28 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <000601c54db2$11d7f410$d6017841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: References: <2.2.32.20050430132014.006929b0 pop.freeserve.net> Subject: Re: Spiral helixes Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 13:26:03 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-100.0 required=4.0 tests=USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59563 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Indeed !! Frank. For the use of a better word we use " component" Watching video of some of the large forest fires over the recent past, I was fascinated with the video shots that captured the occasional " fire storm" or chimney vortexes created along the sharp inclines of mountain slopes as the fires intensify. The suuden updraft vortex of flame shoot skyward at something above mach 10 if my calculations are close. The amazing part is there appears to be "NO" inertia at the start of the event. The visible spiral flame appears to form the vortex and move without any hesitation caused by an enertia... hmmm .. gravity cancelled. There are recorded accounts of witnessing of these type events during WW2 bombing of London and the " fire storms " reported. Perhaps science must displace the terms light and gravity with something more descriptive. I am beginning to suspect gravity is merely a function of " light" or at least a manifestation thereof. The examples of 3 strand helix in nature may often be clues to deeper insight into the complex. The DNA spiral helix may actually be " braided" rather than " twisted" which could give the people in drug research an entire new focus. Consider the studies in " bending" light. If light were actually composed of 3 components then one or more component may pass through any mass, be it earth or whatever, while one or more component may be blocked..... BUT.. and a very big BUT.. that component(s) blocked may reform at a point beyond the block and lend the appearance to an obligue observation as a " bend". Assigning properties to a gravitational constant has been shot with danger way to long in theoretical physics. Light may indeed play an unseen role( pun intended). One must maintain a humor when discussing subjects of this nature or risk the tar brush. Only Vortexians are immune. Richard ----- Original Message ----- From: "Grimer" To: Sent: Saturday, April 30, 2005 8:20 AM Subject: Re: Spiral helixes > At 10:40 pm 28-04-05 -0500, you wrote: >>Observing the vortex produced in a clear plexiglas tank of water by a high >>speed rotating member facing down with a clockwise rotation I notice the >>cone of the vortex is at the surface and counterclockwise due to the >>vortex curling 180 degrees from the face of the rotating member up to the >>surface. The diameter of the vortex remains near constant until it >>approaches the water surface when it expands to the familiar parabolic >>form. a measured amount of air can be induced at the member due to vacuum. >>The air allows the many shed vortices to become visible in the water that >>move in many directions. >> >>A water vortex is made up of many spirals some of which appear to be >>flowing opposite from the main bands. >>These spirals remind me of a model of a DNA molecule.. hmmm. >> >>Reading a recent research paper where light was " frozen" reminds me of >>what happens when a water vortex is disturbed.. it collapses. >>Thinking of the frozen light experiment, I try to imagine what is taking >>place. I have considered the event may be similar to impinging on a water >>vortex... " IF" light is actually in spiral helix form and interrupting >>( impinging) the helix may be what causes the light to freeze. If light is >>actually composed of 3 components it could better explain why sunlight can >>heat a surface after traveling the distance through space at near absolute >>zero temperature. >> >>The water vortex may reveal one of the " capacitor" properties of water. >>If water and light have 3 components and are spiral helix in form there >>may be a way to " interrupt or impinge on one of the bands to " trigger" >>the capacitor. >>Looking at Ecclesiastes 4;12 I read a sentence made by the Teacher.. " a >>cord of three strands is not quickly broken". >> may offer a clue. >> >>Some of the most unseeming comments expressed in this group have led to >>stimulation of thought which is the real worth of >>the VortexL. >> >>Richard > > > Hi Richard, > > I think your point about the third dimension is crucial. > We have always to consider, not only A and B, but also > the interaction term AB. In the real world 2 + 2 does > not equal 4 since to the extent that "adding" represents > something physical, there is always an interaction term > which has some real value. Often, of course, this > interaction is so small that it is below the threshold > of measurable (though not intellectual) perception. > > To take a simple example of what I mean, if we have two > gold coins and we bring them together then they have > lost some gravitational potential energy and gained some > internal energy (inverse inertia). > > Indeed, even in the symbolic representation of 2 + 2 = 4 > one can see that there is a loss of information (negative > interaction) in going from the LHS to the RHS of the > equation. > > Your "a cord of three strands is not quickly broken" > quote is interesting. Could this have referred to a > braid or plait I wonder > > =========================================== > Braiding of fiber yarn creates a strand > or rope that is thicker and stronger than > the strands would have been separately. > Braided ropes are preferred by arborists > and rock climbers because they do not twist > under load, as does an ordinary twisted- > strand rope. These ropes consist of one or > more concentric tubular braided jackets > surrounding a single untwisted yarn of > straight fibers. > =========================================== > > Here again, it is the interaction introduced by the > bending of the individual strands which gives the AB, > AC, BC and ABC interaction terms. Though tenuous in > the extreme these interactions are truly physical > just as much as the flavours of a well cooked meal > or a vintage wine. > > I suppose it is this difficulty to pin down the > physical nature of the interaction between magnetic > and electric field which makes the identification > of the third component so difficult. The "right > angles" characteristic of E and M ensures their > virtual independence from each other - and yet this > independence cannot be complete or they could not > interact at all. The angle must be pi/2 (+/-) delta. > The situation is modelled by the flows in a closed > vortex (e.g. smoke ring). In the case it is easy to > see that the flow of material in the skin of the > ring cannot be exactly at right angles to the flow > along the axis of the ring. > > It seems to me that the reason the interface term > is so difficult to get to grips with is that whereas > the A and B terms are relatively voluminous and > static, the interaction term AB is at the opposite > boundary, spatially tending to zero and extremely > dynamic. In short it is responsible for maintaining > the enormous flows between A and B which maintain > their separate identities. In symbols A <> B so > the symbol <> represents the interaction term. > I will resist the temptation to go OT by not > pointing out the obvious analogy. > > Now since with Tom Flandern I am confident the speed > of gravity is manifestly vastly greater than the > speed of light the only thing that I can see which > could possibly fill the role for the interaction > term between E and M is G. > > Though SMOT is probably a non-starter I feel sure > that it is looking in the right place. However, as > Ing.Saviour has shown, mass is dependent on one's > orientation with respect to the "fixed" stars. Any > experiments which attempt to isolate M-G interaction > will have to take this effect into account since one > will get different results at 9 am than at 9 pm. > > Cheers > > Frank Grimer > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 30 14:34:09 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3ULUHj7016972; Sat, 30 Apr 2005 14:33:54 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3ULLYEh009064; Sat, 30 Apr 2005 14:21:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 14:21:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 07:32:10 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: Vortex , FreeEnergy cc: Prometheus Effect Group Subject: Greg's closed loop SMOT claims, and Vortex-L & Freenrg-L forums In-Reply-To: <20050429092237.89317.qmail web42110.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: References: <20050429092237.89317.qmail web42110.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59561 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Fri, 29 Apr 2005, Prometheus Effect wrote: > I would like to enlist the aid of some of the members of the OU / Free > Energy community to independently verify the virtually no magnetic > dragback exit of the Prometheus Effect. This is somewhat pointless, since you've already achived closed-loop SMOT operation back in 1997. If I recall, you said you did this two different ways: with ramps in a circle, and with some sort of rotary device. We just need all the details of how you did this (such as closeup photos of your different setups in operation.) The list of eyewitnesses to continuous operation that you collected (plus contact info) would go far in convincing us that the whole thing wasn't just a big lie. It's very strange that the videotape that you say you shot in 1997 has never been put on the web. Quality isn't important initially. Just play your tape and aim a cheap digital camera at the TV screen to shoot thirty seconds or so of bad, flickering, small format MPEG, then upload it. How long does that take, like a half hour? (But if SMOT never worked, and if your video too is another lie, then to post that crude video would be almost impossible, no?) Because of your strange behavior, right now I'm assuming that you've been lying all along about seeing the SMOT run continuously for hours in OU device mode. I can be convinced otherwise pretty easily. If I ever become convinced that any OU device is real, I'll throw my support behind it, and I suspect that the other hobbyist websites will too. That your claimed video is not online is 99.99% convincing that you've been lying about achiving closed-loop operation. And in science, even in hobbyist research, once someone has told lies this large, they are no longer trustworthy for ANYTHING. > To that end I will provide a SMOT device and the new lossless > measurement system at no cost. Wrong. The cost is very high in time wasted. Plus the psychological or "karmic" cost of dealing with dishonest people. Instead, provide some high-quality documentation of your 1997 claims of closed-loop operation, or admit that it never occurred. (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb at amasci com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 30 15:02:30 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3UM04jD007311; Sat, 30 Apr 2005 15:02:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3ULrU9N001103; Sat, 30 Apr 2005 14:53:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 14:53:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=e8VEk8TsyedsQfcfIHcpm27UrRWKdqAfJ3SmpukK/nwIBrPBUltqYt0dzinaA7xb1fvrqmQCYK0uveCN7pfUz7DvWM1PFsQRv/f53Gi0vVZnwfxrw1lTtZLnAdNyFuT5611vY9uCY6wvqKM62wkrw4Ao7y9Ke4+dgC23J5M7AFY= Message-ID: Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 12:06:32 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: vacuum cleaner static vortex In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.20050430132014.006929b0 pop.freeserve.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <2.2.32.20050430132014.006929b0 pop.freeserve.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j3ULrLij000942 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59564 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: hey all, i thought id share something interesting ive notice. ive gotten a new vacuum, one of those bagless ones that circles the dust along the outside, with a central outtake and outer intake. the sucker started shocking me on the hand, and, afraid it was sorting somewhere, i unplugged it , got down, and from a foot away, hair started to stand on end. the canister had built up a rather decent static charge. doing a little experimenting, it builds up most as it goes over new area, as it goes over area that is equally dirt and cat hair as well. its likely its friction between the dust and hair and other components of the dirt sucked up, as if you discharge all the build up and let it keep running in one place, it continues building, but very slowly, due likely to the majority of the dust having collected at the bottom. however, i also noticed, after i had emptyed it, and completly rubbed away the charge, there was stil la layer of dust on teh inside. filling the canister with water , as water hit each area, soaking up the dust, the outside of that area of the canister would crackle to life. i got a few one inch to two inch sparks across different areas, and hundres of smaller ones, with a sound like rice cripies in a blender. more than likely, this is of use only to make another static build up device, similar to a van graff (and i intend to try just that when i get some spare parts) but who knows, maybe theres somethign there someone might find interesting. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 30 15:21:43 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3UMLMPq025547; Sat, 30 Apr 2005 15:21:23 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3UMLIEh025440; Sat, 30 Apr 2005 15:21:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 15:21:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001901c54d97$3ab7ed60$6401a8c0 NuDell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <2.2.32.20050430132014.006929b0 pop.freeserve.net> Subject: Re: Spiral helixes Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 08:13:56 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59565 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frank and Richard, > Your "a cord of three strands is not quickly broken" > quote is interesting. Could this have referred to a > braid or plait I wonder. Most likely. And an anthropologist might suspect that somewhere back in prehistory, women taught men that plaiting animal or plant fibers, like they did with their own hair, would make for a stronger rope... or is that sexist? Anyway, the thought occurred that perhaps there is also something "special" but not easy to quantify, along the lines of Frank's "third component" in three-phase AC, which makes it the standard over other possibilities. With only two polarities, one might ask why have three-phase at all, or else... if there is any advantage to using multiple phases, why not have four or six, etc? (which actually you do have in transformers). There is information on the net about this, but none of it seems to have the complete answer - other than **cost** or should I say, "duh, it all gets back to cost." In fact, three-phase is more economical than any other number of phases, it seems, in that it uses less tonnage of a conductor to get the same amount of power from point A to point B. But for applications like rectifiers and synchronous converters where DC is produced, it is most efficient to use six-phase AC input, which is easily produced from three-phase in a transformer. The experts say that if you are transmitting a certain amount of power single-phase, adding one more conductor operated at the same line voltage and current and using three-phase will increase the power transmitted by 72% with only a 50% increase in the amount of copper and losses. That advantage is obvious, but is there more to the story than cost and why is that the case anyway ? Terry probably knows the answer... or maybe it is part of the mystery of a spiral helix... ;-) Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 30 15:25:26 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3UMP7mN028307; Sat, 30 Apr 2005 15:25:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3UMP6DB028288; Sat, 30 Apr 2005 15:25:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 15:25:06 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <427405D8.6050606 bellsouth.net> Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 18:25:28 -0400 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040804 Netscape/7.2 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Long Delayed Echoes References: <20050429155136.ZXTJ2063.imf18aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> <427393A2.60300@bellsouth.net> In-Reply-To: <427393A2.60300 bellsouth.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59566 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: > > > Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > >> In reply to Terry Blanton's message of Fri, 29 Apr 2005 11:51:36 >> -0400: >> Hi, >> [snip] >> >> >>> He supposedly has the proof; but, "focusing" is a possibility. >>> Imagine you're a point source at the center of a 41 light hour >>> radius reflective sphere. >>> >> >> >> ..such as the Heliopause perhaps? >> > > Yes, and such a pity that we might not hear Voyager's experience with > the Heliopause: > > http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A23500-2005Apr3.html Okay, here's a proposal . . . We hit the Heliopause with an impulse and check the resulting response. Maybe detonate a small device on the other side of Sol? Better still, don't we need to simply monitor a broadband signal from both directions and correlate with respect to time since the spectrum or our star varies? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 30 15:37:04 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3UMaoGZ000417; Sat, 30 Apr 2005 15:36:51 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3UManX5000401; Sat, 30 Apr 2005 15:36:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 15:36:49 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Long Delayed Echoes Date: Sun, 01 May 2005 08:36:29 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <802871tfenv1cqr2o4sig1sdai5f1rls12 4ax.com> References: <20050429155136.ZXTJ2063.imf18aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> <427393A2.60300@bellsouth.net> <427405D8.6050606@bellsouth.net> In-Reply-To: <427405D8.6050606 bellsouth.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j3UMacGZ032730 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59567 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Terry Blanton's message of Sat, 30 Apr 2005 18:25:28 -0400: Hi, [snip] >Okay, here's a proposal . . . > >We hit the Heliopause with an impulse and check the resulting response. >Maybe detonate a small device on the other side of Sol? Try googling radar ranging results for the moon/Venus/mars, and see if any long delayed echoes are mentioned. [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 30 15:40:34 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3UMePGZ002053; Sat, 30 Apr 2005 15:40:25 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3UMeNVV002026; Sat, 30 Apr 2005 15:40:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 15:40:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: vacuum cleaner static vortex X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: ID = 909b8a8ff0cae19159d456a4b333f05c Reply-To: michael.foster excite.com From: "Michael Foster" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: michael.foster excite.com X-Mailer: PHP Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050430224016.58DB71973B4 xprdmailfe3.nwk.excite.com> Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 18:40:16 -0400 (EDT) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59568 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A What brand is the vac? I gotta try this. BTW, charged powder van de Graaff generators have been built, but they were kind of a mess and didn't work too well. M. --- On Sat 04/30, leaking pen < itsatrap gmail.com > wrote: > hey all, i thought id share something interesting ive notice. ive > gotten a new vacuum, one of those bagless ones that circles the dust > along the outside, with a central outtake and outer intake. the > sucker started shocking me on the hand, and, afraid it was sorting > somewhere, i unplugged it , got down, and from a foot away, hair > started to stand on end. the canister had built up a rather decent > static charge. doing a little experimenting, it builds up most as it > goes over new area, as it goes over area that is equally dirt and cat > hair as well. its likely its friction between the dust and hair and > other components of the dirt sucked up, as if you discharge all the > build up and let it keep running in one place, it continues building, > but very slowly, due likely to the majority of the dust having > collected at the bottom. however, i also noticed, after i had emptyed > it, and completly rubbed away the charge, there was stil la layer of > dust on teh inside. filling the canister with water , as water hit > each area, soaking up the dust, the outside of that area of the > canister would crackle to life. i got a few one inch to two inch > sparks across different areas, and hundres of smaller ones, with a > sound like rice cripies in a blender. more than likely, this is of > use only to make another static build up device, similar to a van > graff (and i intend to try just that when i get some spare parts) but > who knows, maybe theres somethign there someone might find > interesting. _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 30 16:01:07 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3UN0x5x011590; Sat, 30 Apr 2005 16:01:00 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3UN0wZN011580; Sat, 30 Apr 2005 16:00:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 16:00:58 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42740E42.8010300 bellsouth.net> Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 19:01:22 -0400 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040804 Netscape/7.2 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Spiral helixes References: <2.2.32.20050430132014.006929b0 pop.freeserve.net> <001901c54d97$3ab7ed60$6401a8c0@NuDell> In-Reply-To: <001901c54d97$3ab7ed60$6401a8c0 NuDell> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59569 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: > Terry probably knows the answer... or maybe it is part of the mystery > of a spiral helix... ;-) It's nice to have friends. Euclid: "Three points determine a plane." From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 30 16:04:46 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3UN4d5x012518; Sat, 30 Apr 2005 16:04:39 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3UN4cLX012504; Sat, 30 Apr 2005 16:04:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 16:04:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42740F1C.3020506 bellsouth.net> Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 19:05:00 -0400 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040804 Netscape/7.2 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Long Delayed Echoes References: <20050429155136.ZXTJ2063.imf18aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> <427393A2.60300@bellsouth.net> <427405D8.6050606@bellsouth.net> <802871tfenv1cqr2o4sig1sdai5f1rls12@4ax.com> In-Reply-To: <802871tfenv1cqr2o4sig1sdai5f1rls12 4ax.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <8NrjQB.A.UDD.F8AdCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59570 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >Try googling radar ranging results for the moon/Venus/mars, and >see if any long delayed echoes are mentioned. > Be more specific, pls. Directional antennae could render your comment irrelevant. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 30 16:19:45 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3UNJZqh017723; Sat, 30 Apr 2005 16:19:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3UNJZDw017714; Sat, 30 Apr 2005 16:19:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 16:19:35 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001101c54dba$090b04a0$6401a8c0 msns.flt.ptd.net> From: "revtec" To: Subject: OFF TOPIC Father of Murdered Columbine High School Student, Rachel Scott, Speaks to Congress Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 15:23:03 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000E_01C54D98.80468480" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59571 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C54D98.80468480 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MessageSubject: FW: Darrell Scott testimony DARRELL SCOTT TESTIMONY Guess our national leaders didn't expect this, hmm? On Thursday, = Darrell Scott, the father of Rachel Scott, a victim of the Columbine High = School shootings in Littleton, Colorado, was invited to address the House Judiciary Committee's subcommittee What he said to our national = leaders during this special session of Congress was painfully truthful. = They were not prepared for what he was to say, nor was it received well. It = needs to be heard by every parent, every teacher, every politician, = every sociologist, every psychologist, and every so-called expert! = These courageous words spoken by Darrell Scott are powerful, = penetrating, and deeply personal. There is no doubt that God sent this man as a = voice crying in the wilderness. The following is a portion of the = transcript: "Since the dawn of creation there has been both good & evil in the = hearts of men and women. We all contain the seeds of kindness or the = seeds of violence. The death of my wonderful daughter, Rachel Joy Scott, = and the deaths of that heroic teacher, and the other eleven children who = died must not be in vain. Their blood cries out for answers. "The first recorded act of violence was when Cain slew his brother = Abel out in the field. The villain was not the club he used. Neither = was it the NCA, the National Club Association. The true killer was Cain, = and the reason for the murder could only be found in Cain's heart. "In the days that followed the Columbine tragedy, I was amazed at = how quickly fingers began to be pointed at groups such as the NRA. I = am not a member of the NRA. I am not a hunter. I do not even own a gun. I = am not here to represent or defend the NRA - because I don't believe = that they are responsible for my daughter's death. Therefore I do not = believe that they need to be defended. If I believed they had anything to do = with Rachel's murder I would be their strongest opponent. I am here today to declare that Columbine was not just a = tragedy-it was a spiritual event that should be forcing us to look at where the = real blame lies! Much of the blame lies here in this room. Much of the blame = lies behind the pointing fingers of the accusers themselves. "I wrote a = poem just four nights ago that expresses my feelings best. This was = written way before I knew I would be speaking here today: Your laws ignore our deepest needs, Your words are empty air. You've stripped away our heritage, You've outlawed simple prayer. Now gunshots fill our classrooms, And precious children die. You seek for answers everywhere, And ask the question "Why?" You regulate restrictive laws, Through legislative creed. And yet you fail to understand, That God is what we need! "Men and women are three-part beings. We all consist of body, = soul, and spirit. When we refuse to acknowledge a third part of our make-up, = we create a void that allows evil, prejudice, and hatred to rush in = and reek havoc Spiritual presences were present within our educational = systems for most of our nation's history. Many of our major colleges began as theological seminaries. This is a historical fact. What has = happened to us as a nation? We have refused to honor God, and in so doing, we = open the doors to hatred and violence. And when something as terrible = as Columbine's tragedy occurs -- politicians immediately look for a scapegoat such as the NRA. They immediately seek to pass more restrictive laws that contribute to erode away our personal and private = liberties. We do not need more restrictive laws. "Eric and Dylan would not have = been stopped by metal detectors No amount of gun laws can stop someone = who spends months planning this type of massacre. The real vi llain = lies within our own hearts. "As my son Craig lay under that table in the school library and = saw his two friends murdered before his very eyes-He did not hesitate to = pray in school. I defy any law or politician to deny him that right! I = challenge every young person in America, and around the world, to realize = that on April 20, 1999, at Columbine High School prayer was brought back = to our schools. Do not let the many prayers offered by those students be = in vain. Dare to move into the new millennium with a sacred = disregard for legislation that violates your God-given right to communicate = with Him. To those of you who would point your finger at the NRA - I give = to you a sincere challenge. Dare to examine your own heart before casting = the first stone! My daughter's death will not be in vain! The young people of this = country will not allow that to happen!" Do what the media did not - - let the nation hear this man's = speech. Please send this out to everyone you can =20 =20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C54D98.80468480 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
Subject: FW: Darrell Scott testimony

DARRELL SCOTT TESTIMONY
Guess our national leaders didn't = expect=20 this, hmm? On Thursday, Darrell
Scott, the father of Rachel = Scott, a=20 victim of the Columbine High School
shootings in Littleton, = Colorado,=20 was invited to address the House
Judiciary  Committee's=20 subcommittee What he said to our national leaders
during = this =20 special session of Congress was painfully truthful. = They
were
not=20 prepared  for what he was to say, nor was it received well. = It=20 needs
to be heard by  every parent, every teacher, every=20 politician, every
sociologist, every  psychologist, and = every=20 so-called expert! These
courageous words spoken by  = Darrell Scott=20 are powerful, penetrating, and
deeply personal. There is = no  doubt=20 that God sent this man as a voice
crying in the wilderness. = The =20 following is a portion of the transcript:

"Since the dawn = of=20 creation there has been both good & evil in the = hearts
of  men=20 and women. We all contain the seeds of kindness or the seeds=20 of
violence. The death of my wonderful daughter, Rachel Joy = Scott, and=20 the
deaths of that heroic teacher, and the other eleven = children who=20 died
must
not be in vain. Their blood cries out for=20 answers.

"The first recorded act of violence was when Cain = slew his=20 brother Abel
out  in the field. The villain was not the = club he=20 used. Neither was it
the NCA,  the National Club = Association. The=20 true killer was Cain, and
the
reason for  the murder = could only=20 be found in Cain's heart.
"In the days that followed the = Columbine=20 tragedy, I was amazed at how
quickly fingers began to be = pointed at=20 groups such as the NRA. I am not a

member of the NRA. I am = not a=20 hunter. I do not even own a gun. I am not
here  to = represent or=20 defend the NRA - because I don't believe that they
are =20 responsible for my daughter's death. Therefore I do not believe=20 that
they  need to be defended. If I believed they had = anything to=20 do with
Rachel's  murder I would be their strongest = opponent.
I=20 am here today to declare that Columbine was not just a tragedy-it = was=20 a

spiritual event that should be forcing us to look at = where the=20 real blame

lies! Much of the blame lies here in this room. = Much of=20 the blame lies
behind the pointing fingers of the accusers = themselves.=20 "I wrote a poem
just  four nights ago that expresses my = feelings=20 best. This was written
way before  I knew I would be = speaking here=20 today:


Your laws ignore our deepest needs,
Your = words are=20 empty air.
You've stripped away our heritage,
You've = outlawed simple=20 prayer.
Now gunshots fill our classrooms,
And precious = children=20 die.
You seek for answers everywhere,
And ask the question=20 "Why?"
You regulate restrictive laws,
Through legislative=20 creed.
And yet you fail to understand,
That God is what we=20 need!


"Men and women are three-part beings. We all = consist of=20 body, soul, and
spirit. When we refuse to acknowledge a third = part of=20 our make-up, we
create  a void that allows evil, = prejudice, and=20 hatred to rush in and
reek
havoc  Spiritual presences = were=20 present within our educational systems
for
most of  our = nation's history. Many of our major colleges began = as
theological =20 seminaries. This is a historical fact. What has happened to
us = as a=20 nation?  We have refused to honor God, and in so doing, we=20 open
the doors to hatred  and violence. And when something = as=20 terrible as
Columbine's tragedy  occurs -- politicians = immediately=20 look for a
scapegoat such as the NRA. They  immediately = seek to=20 pass more
restrictive
laws that contribute to erode = away  our=20 personal and private liberties.
We
do not need more = restrictive=20 laws.  "Eric and Dylan would not have been
stopped by = metal=20 detectors No amount of  gun laws can stop someone = who
spends=20 months planning this type of massacre.  The real vi llain=20 lies
within our own hearts.
"As my son Craig lay under that = table in=20 the school library and saw his
two  friends murdered = before his=20 very eyes-He did not hesitate to pray in
school.  I defy = any law=20 or politician to deny him that right! I challenge
every = young =20 person in America, and around the world, to realize that = on
April 20,=20 1999,  at Columbine High School prayer was brought back to=20 our
schools. Do not let  the many prayers offered by those = students be in
vain. Dare to move into the  new millennium = with a=20 sacred disregard for
legislation that violates your  = God-given=20 right to communicate with Him.
To those of you who would = point =20 your finger at the NRA - I give to you a
sincere challenge. = Dare to=20 examine  your own heart before casting the
first = stone!
My=20 daughter's death will not be in vain! The young people of this=20 country

will not allow that to happen!"

Do what the = media=20 did not - - let the nation hear this man's speech.
Please  = send=20 this out to everyone you can
 
 
= ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C54D98.80468480-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 30 16:43:06 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3UNgxs0026137; Sat, 30 Apr 2005 16:42:59 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3UNgv9i026114; Sat, 30 Apr 2005 16:42:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 16:42:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Mark S Bilk To: "Vortex List" Subject: Re: Spiral helixes Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 16:41:13 -0700 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.28] Content-Type: text/plain MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <0504301642460F.03786 isis> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59572 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In-Reply-To: <001901c54d97$3ab7ed60$6401a8c0 NuDell> Organization: http://www.cosmicpenguin.com/911 The most common industrial means of obtaining motive power from electricity is the induction motor; these can be built very simply and cheaply if powered by three-phase AC, since an array of 3 (or 6, 9, etc.) stator coils produces the necessary rotating magnetic field (which turns the unpowered -- thus simple and cheap -- rotor). Single-phase induction motors require a whole extra starter system, including relays, capacitors, and additional stator coils, or (on smaller motors) pole-shading rings, etc., all of which produce a weaker starting magnetic field than the simple stator coils on the three-phase motors, which also produce their running field. On Sat, Apr 30, 2005 at 08:13:56AM -0700, Jones Beene wrote: >... >Anyway, the thought occurred that perhaps there is also something >"special" but not easy to quantify, along the lines of Frank's >"third component" in three-phase AC, which makes it the standard >over other possibilities. With only two polarities, one might ask >why have three-phase at all, or else... if there is any advantage >to using multiple phases, why not have four or six, etc? (which >actually you do have in transformers). There is information on the >net about this, but none of it seems to have the complete answer - >other than **cost** or should I say, "duh, it all gets back to >cost." >In fact, three-phase is more economical than any other number of >phases, it seems, in that it uses less tonnage of a conductor to >get the same amount of power from point A to point B. But for >applications like rectifiers and synchronous converters where DC >is produced, it is most efficient to use six-phase AC input, which >is easily produced from three-phase in a transformer. > >The experts say that if you are transmitting a certain amount of >power single-phase, adding one more conductor operated at the same >line voltage and current and using three-phase will increase the >power transmitted by 72% with only a 50% increase in the amount of >copper and losses. That advantage is obvious, but is there more to >the story than cost and why is that the case anyway ? Terry >probably knows the answer... or maybe it is part of the mystery of >a spiral helix... ;-) > >Jones > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 30 16:46:05 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3UNjvs0026782; Sat, 30 Apr 2005 16:45:57 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j3UNjupP026768; Sat, 30 Apr 2005 16:45:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 16:45:56 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Long Delayed Echoes Date: Sun, 01 May 2005 09:45:38 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <20050429155136.ZXTJ2063.imf18aec.mail.bellsouth.net mail.bellsouth.net> <427393A2.60300@bellsouth.net> <427405D8.6050606@bellsouth.net> <802871tfenv1cqr2o4sig1sdai5f1rls12@4ax.com> <42740F1C.3020506@bellsouth.net> In-Reply-To: <42740F1C.3020506 bellsouth.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j3UNjms0026693 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59573 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Terry Blanton's message of Sat, 30 Apr 2005 19:05:00 -0400: Hi, [snip] > > >Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > >>Try googling radar ranging results for the moon/Venus/mars, and >>see if any long delayed echoes are mentioned. >> > >Be more specific, pls. Directional antennae could render your comment >irrelevant. Why? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 30 18:43:46 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j411haZ1027557; Sat, 30 Apr 2005 18:43:40 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j411hYXo027543; Sat, 30 Apr 2005 18:43:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 18:43:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20050501014317.43765.qmail web42101.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 11:43:17 +1000 (EST) From: Prometheus Effect Subject: Re: Reqest for Prometheus Effect verifiers To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: 6667 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59574 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Mike, You will get your SMOT kit and the new measurement system in July or earlier. Just send me your delivery address. I made this statement in the home page of the Prometheus Effect site. Greg --- Mike Carrell wrote: > And what about those who paid for the original SMOT > kit, never got it, and did not ask for money back? > Like me? > > Mike Carrell Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies. http://au.movies.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 30 22:02:40 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j4152YZ1020440; Sat, 30 Apr 2005 22:02:34 -0700 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j4152WJp020426; Sat, 30 Apr 2005 22:02:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 22:02:32 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 22:02:31 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: vacuum cleaner static vortex In-Reply-To: <20050430224016.58DB71973B4 xprdmailfe3.nwk.excite.com> Message-ID: References: <20050430224016.58DB71973B4 xprdmailfe3.nwk.excite.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/59575 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Sat, 30 Apr 2005, Michael Foster wrote: > > What brand is the vac? I gotta try this. Very cool! A low-humidity environment is probably the key to this. Powder impact on plastic should charge both the powder and the plastic. I've never seen it happen with my vacuum in Seattle, so it might be our humid weather rather than the particular brand of device. Also, a bit of greasy salty filth can make a surface too conductive. Or a microscopic bit of oil on the plastic can coat the dust and halt the charging (this is how "clothes dryer sheets" eliminate static cling.) A brand new vaccum cleaner might create vicious sparks, but after a few hours of operation the sparks would stop again, unless the plastic interior was thorougly flushed with soapy water, alcohol, etc. I've noticed that, while cleaning plastic to create electrostatic effects, you have to *flush the surface* with a stream of liquid. If instead you scrub with alcohol-soaked paper towels, the surface remains contaminated. (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb at amasci com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci